open thread – May 8, 2015

by Alison Green on May 8, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,360 comments }

{ 1,360 comments… read them below }

  1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

    Can we talk about inappropriate bathroom behavior at work?

    In my office there is someone who leaves pubic hair all over the seat, every day. I honestly don’t even know how it’s possible to leave that much behind. This is in the only usable stall. The others are soooo tiny. There is also something strange about this pubic hair. It’s suffers from static cling. I’ve tried to wipe it away and, I’m not kidding, I wipe it away, throw the tissue in the bowl and it appears on the seat again, like magic. It’s so bizarre. Why they can’t just clean the seat when they’re done, I’ll never know.

    There is also a woman that insists on turning the sink on when she goes to the bathroom and leaves it running the whole time. One time I turned it off and she asked me to turn it back on. What an enormous waste of water.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      OMG YES. Dante should have put an extra circle in hell for people who pee on the seat and don’t wipe it up.

      And don’t blame the overactive toilet flushing mechanism. Yeah, that does happen, but I can tell the difference. Colorless droplets on the seat = the flushing mechanism. Yellow on the seat = you’re an a-hole.

      People in my office are pigs! Toilet paper all over the floor, pee on the seat, etc. I feel embarrassed when clients come to the agency and I know they’re going to see it.

      1. Anx*

        My college reno’d a new wing and the toilet seats have little lifter thingy attached. I was so excited. About 4 years I seriously considered writing letters to toilet companies urging them to design toilet seats that were more sanity to lift up. I’m so glad they’re doing it now!

    2. Anoners*

      Oh god yes. The worst is being a guy using a urinal and having people try to have full blown work convos with you. Like.. please just stop talking to me at this moment.

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        My other half complains about this all the time. As well as when he’s using a urinal in a row of 5 other empty urinals and someone comes in and uses the one right next to him.

      2. Beezus*

        I heard a story the other day about a coworker walking into a men’s room to see someone eating a slice of pizza while using the urinal. I am still horrified.

        4. JB (not in Houston)*

          I was once washing my hands in the bathroom at my old job, and a coworker came in with an uncovered plate of food, sat it on the little table near the sinks, and went into the stall. NO.

          1. chewbecca*

            A few months back, women kept walking by my desk and mentioning there was a half-eaten pie sitting on the chair we have in our restroom. I never had the chance to see it for myself, but it was incredibly weird.

            What’s worse is that if I remember correctly, it was a chocolate pie.

            3. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

              Was she mentioning it because it was strange or was this an “if anyone is interested, there’s poop cake in the bathroom” kind of mention?

              1. chewbecca*

                They were all mentioning it because it was strange. I really hope that our employees have enough sense not to eat mystery bathroom pie.

      3. Kyrielle*

        My coworker had a guy come into the bathroom looking for him while he was, uh, busy – in a stall, not a urinal, no less. Called his name, he foolishly responded, this guy proceeded to stand around outside the stall and hold a conversation.

        No, it wasn’t anything super-critical time-wise.

        I don’t even.

      4. Sunflower*

        I’m a woman and my boss talks to me while I’m using the toilet. Like we have an offices right next to each other- wait til I’m back please! Or at least wait til I come out to use the sink. It’s so awkward.

          1. kozinskey*

            That scene made me idolize Claire Underwood maybe a little more than is appropriate. She is so tough.

        2. Laura*

          I had someone do this to me and I just keep redirecting them. I’m not going to talk to you while I’m on the toilet.
          Them: “I just wanted to ask you about (whatever it is)”
          Me: “Okay, I’ll be back at my desk shortly.”
          Them: “I’ve been thinking about that issue where …”
          Me: “I’ll be back at my desk in a minute, so I’ll be able to talk to you about it then.”
          Keep repeating until they get the point.

      5. BRR*

        I was peeing once at a urinal and two guys were washing their hands and talking. One was on his way out but held the door open to the bathroom while he finished his conversation. Like WTF! Anybody walking by (it was a heavily trafficked hallway) could glance in and see me going.

      6. Sadsack*

        I was washing my hands in the ladies room in a college library. I heard the person in the stall, after having used the toilet, rummaging around in a backpack and then the sound of foil or plastic packaging being opened. She came out of the stall and was eating a granola bar as she walked past me and straight out the door. No handwashing. I guess she might have used purell in the stall. But still.

    3. Malissa*

      This is exactly why there are clorox wipes in my work bathroom. I have no idea how someone can leave so much hair and dirt on a toilet seat.

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        We share the bathroom with other businesses on the same floor. Otherwise, I would absolutely leave clorox wipes in there.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      BUT SOMEONE MIGHT HEAR HER PEE OR POOP AND KNOW THAT SHE ACTUALLY PEES AND POOPS!!!1!!1!!!!

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        This is similar to flushing when you fart. You’re not fooling anyone.

        2. Bea W*

          Though to be fair, sometimes those fart noises are actually shart noises and require immediate flushing before the smell knocks you unconscious.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Yes, although there’s one guy in my office who flushes almost CONSTANTLY when he’s in a stall. Annoying, especially since we’re supposed to be a “green” company.

          2. Mabel*

            Bea W, your comment made me laugh out loud! “shart” and “before the smell knocks you unconscious” !!! Thank you!

      2. Kyrielle*

        Possible. If I’m being charitable, maybe she needs the sound to help her for some reason?

        1. brightstar*

          I once knew a girl (we were teenagers) who was unable to go without the water running.

          1. nervous pee-er*

            It’s quite possible. I’m ostensibly not a shy/modest person about these things – I camp a lot, have no problem doing my business in the woods, I have no trouble changing in front of people or going nude at clothing-optional events…but I have a mental block that makes it really hard for me to pee when I think other people are listening. I’ll sit there trying to will myself to relax enough to pee but sometimes I really just can’t, even when I have to go so badly it’s painful. It’s an involuntary muscle so no matter how consciously/rationally fine I am with the fact that people can hear me, I can’t make it relax. It doesn’t happen every time someone else is in the bathroom, it’s usually when someone else is in the bathroom being very quiet that triggers it – like without knowing what they’re doing without making any noise some part of me decides they’re listening to me pee and clams up. If they’re in the bathroom but they’re also peeing or washing their hands it doesn’t seem to trigger the reaction.

            1. chewbecca*

              I spent about 3 years either working from home or being unemployed, and when I started my current job, I had a really hard time adjusting to peeing around other people again. It didn’t help that our bathroom has no ambient noise piped in, so it’s incredibly quiet in there. It took several months and lots of “it’s okay, just relax” to finally be able to go easily again.

            2. JB (not in Houston)*

              I have that problem when someone comes into the bathroom right after I sit down. I am easily startled, and our bathroom is pretty quiet. The sudden noise startles me, and then I just have to sit there until I can relax.

              1. Journalist Wife*

                Yes! I cannot “go” if someone else is in there! A coworker of mine also suffers from this as well, so we call it “Pee Fright” (like stage fright) and luckily the other ladies we work with know about it and give us a minute to ourselves. But yes, it’s the worst! There is no amount of self-talk rationalization that I can give myself to make that bladder OK with going. Although occasionally counting in my head really fast helps, though I once had a boyfriend I confided that in — and he thought it was so hilarious that every time we were on the interstate or somewhere with no bathrooms, he’d look at me and start whispering “1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10…” to make me have to go.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I remember an Ann Landers column (Or was it Abby?) in the 70s talking about shy kidneys. Don’t know why that stayed with me, but I still remember. For years now, if I notice that someone in the next stall is very quiet, I just finish up and get out as quickly as I can. That has to be annoying and uncomfortable to have to deal with.

      3. Allison*

        To be fair, I’ve heard (rather immature) young women talk about times where they were in the bathroom and they could hear someone doing their business, and it was “like, omigod, soooooo grossssss!” or whining about how the bathroom smells like poop, so I can understand that some people might be embarrassed by what they (naturally) do while on the toilet. If more people just realized that the bathroom is where humans go to do “gross” things, others wouldn’t be made to feel ashamed of it.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          Right? Women take a lot of shame for it (I think I’ve mentioned before a coworker who thought no woman should have gas because it was unladylike), but anything that every human does, that cannot be prevented, and that is a natural process of living is nothing to be ashamed of.

        2. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

          Yeah. I didn’t really think about it too much. I just thought about wasting water and that it seemed like 4th grade behavior. But you’re right, people do shame other people for simply being people.

        3. Valar M.*

          I’ve heard people of all kinds, not just young or women doing the same thing. In fact I’ve known fully grown adults posting about it on FB and social media, so yep.

        4. The Other Dawn*

          I’ll never forget the time I was doing my business and two women, probably early 20s, came in and remarked, “Oh my God! It’s smells so bad in heeeeerreeee!!!!! Sooooo GROSSSS!!!!” Um, it’s a bathroom. Hello?! Grow the fuck up!

          And to be clear it wasn’t me. It was the person before me, but building management didn’t stock air freshener in the restrooms so of course it looked like it was me. So I stayed in the stall until they were gone.

        5. matcha123*

          Courtesy Flush is great and works. Don’t let the turd fester in the water, flush it as soon as it hits and continue with your business.
          mistupid.com/people/page051.htm

          1. Bridget*

            Yeah, except that there’s almost NO WAY I’m going to touch a public toilet handle. I always use my foot. So a courtesy flush isn’t always an option in a public bathroom =X

      4. Sadsack*

        Some of us occasionally get stage fright in a public bathroom. I bet that’s why she does it.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I thought that working in a small office with one bathroom would reduce my bathroom annoyances, but it doesn’t. Someone (pretty sure I know who) never throws her paper towels in the trash can and NEVER replaces the toilet paper roll.

      This is better than previous offices, where people were DISGUSTING. One woman used to stuff the toilet with seat covers and clog it constantly. I don’t know why. And the hovering? Come on, now. Wipe up!

    6. Sparrow*

      I’m a firm believer that everyone should turn around before leaving the stall to make sure nothing is awry. As for the water, my thought is that she’s trying to cover up noises. I agree, enormous waste of water.

      1. kozinskey*

        Yes! People in my office are totally guilty of failing to double flush. Our toilets are wimpy, how do they not realize this by now??

      2. the gold digger*

        Freakanomics radio did an entire show about why, if we have to suffer with piped-in music everywhere else in life, are public restrooms silent as a tomb.

      3. Ama*

        The management of the building my office rents space in resorted to posting signs on the interior of all the stalls. I guess it is working — it seems like I walk in to find all three toilets with clear bowls more often –but it still makes me feel like we’re all in elementary school.

    7. fposte*

      If it’s magic wipe-resistant hair for you, it might be the same for the owner, I suppose.

      But basically I’m with Sparrow. Turn around and look before you go. The campsite rule doesn’t quite work–taking photographs would be weird, and leaving footprints suggests a depressingly low level of floor hygiene–but the underlying principle is sound: the place shouldn’t look any different for your having used it.

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        You raise a very good point. I suppose she’s not able to wipe it away for some reason either. If it were me I’d be bringing wet ones to wipe the seat after I was done.

          1. Nashira*

            Somebody please put me out of my misery. I’ve been having an ulcerative colitis flare since February, and this week got put on a new med that frightens me. (irrationally – you have to be taking 3.5-5x higher dose to get the “gives you cancer” side effect.) I’m also on an emotional rollercoaster from only absorbing random doses of my psych meds. So what did I do?

            Randomly burst into tears while talking to my supervisor about how our remote manager is frustratingly clueless about conditions at our office. We both just ignored it but I wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out again. The thing with my manager is frustrating, as is being afraid to have coworkers find out how ill I am, since they’ll turn on me like sharks, but… Why did I have to get teary? Ahhhhhhh!

            1. Ruffingit*

              It happens and it’s OK. Really. You had a crying fest at an inopportune time, but guess what that means? You’re human. You have a chronic illness, you just got put on a new medication and you are not observing all you’re psych meds. You also apparently work on the set of Jaws. Any or all of those things can make one teary if not outright weepy. Hang in there and just know it’s OK. It’s really OK. You’re doing the best you can. HUGS!

            2. HR Generalist*

              This is my number one thing I’d like to change about myself (on a normal day!!!). I cry when I’m talking far too easily despite trying to be steely and act like I’m not emotionally affected. I would say don’t worry about it (especially considering I do it all the time). I’m going through a breakup at home right now and I get so frustrated about not being able to hold a constructive conversation without being obviously emotional.

              If I do it at work I will sometimes follow up with the victim of my emotional state. Sometimes by email or in person, just saying “Hey Jane – I got a little emotional yesterday when we were talking and I hope it didn’t make you uncomfortable. It’s something that happens a lot to me (sometimes I’ll add ‘especially when I’m frustrated, dealing with some stuff on the side, having a rough day, etc.’), I just can’t control it and it makes me uncomfortable too. Hope I didn’t weird you out too much!”
              In general people are really supportive around that conversation and I usually don’t have to disclose much personally. It’s important to be really casual about it in person. If I know I can’t handle that, I’ll do it by email. I’m sorry you’re going through all of this. Don’t be afraid of emotions at work – everyone has them and it’s nothing to stress (more) about. Take care of yourself first!

          3. I Know Weird Stuff About Weird Stuff*

            Because she’s got one of those hair-pulling disorders, and she’s sitting there on the seat plucking out hairs. And because they weren’t ready to be removed, they’ve still got that little bit of sticky flesh stuck to the root end, so they stick to the seat.

          4. Valar M.*

            It’s possible too that they are on medication that is making them lose hair. It’s not just the hair on your head that you lose, you know.

        2. Bea W*

          Every once in a while I’ll drop a pube on the seat, and I am totally horrified. There is no way I would leave that laying around for the next user, but I’m one of those people who check before I leave the stall to be sure I’m not leaving anything behind that would gross out the next user. It’s just hair, but no one wants to be forced to think about their co-workers’ public hair.

            2. hermit crab*

              Haha, public hair! I work in the *public* health field, often with or about *public* water systems, and we always have to triple-check our deliverables for accidental instances of the word “pubic.” This is the first I’ve seen of the typo/joke going the other way. :)

      2. Gene*

        Re: photos.

        I don’t know if it’s still being updated, and I can’t remember the name, but I used to follow a blog where the author photo documented every BM. One could follow his/her(?) health problems. The “Prepping for a colonoscopy” series commentary was a riot!

      3. Keery (Like the County In Ireland)*

        My peeve is if you use a toilet seat cover, you flush it. You do not leave it for the next person. How do you live so grossed out by germs that you can’t sit your bare hiney on a seat, AND THEN not touch the seat cover that your hiney was on? Get it together, ladies.

        1. chewbecca*

          I remember reading somewhere that they’re not even that effective. They nearly disintegrate when they get wet.

        2. Hlyssande*

          When I went to the bathroom a bit ago, someone had left toilet paper neatly laid across the seat. We don’t have covers. Were they making their own? Why would they leave it there? I DON’T KNOW!

          2. matcha123*

            Maybe your coworker is actually four years old, because I remember doing that at public toilets when I was that age. I thought I was being helpful because the seats were dirty. So, might want to be on the lookout for kindergartners in your office.

    8. Rebecca*

      I’m sick of going into the bathroom, discovering 1 or 2 sheets of toilet paper on the roll, and there are 2 rolls on the back of the toilet. What, is your time so precious you couldn’t do one small thing for the next person? Then, after I wash my hands, and try to get a paper towel, no towels, but someone put a roll on top of the dispenser. Thanks. I love it when water runs down my hands into my armpits because you couldn’t take a few minutes to put the towels IN the dispenser. And many times, there are simply no towels at all, and I wipe my hands on my pants.

      I’d love to know who the thoughtless special snowflakes are in my office so I could Gibbs smack them.

      1. Nanc*

        My office, too, has a someone-with-awful-bathroom-manners who deserves a daily Gibbs smack. Honestly, does she d this at home? She’s also the one who can’t close the door to the outside, resulting in flies–and guess whose office is closest to that outside door?

    9. Hlyssande*

      Ugh that’s terrible.

      I wipe down the seat every dang time (unless I’m about to lose control – long training sessions can do that to me) because I’ve sat in gross way too many times not to do so.

      Even when I don’t see it at a glance, there are usually droplets somewhere I need to wipe up.

    10. Dang*

      How about people who have phone conversions while pooping in the work bathroom?
      And why does that make ME feel awkward when I flush the toilet??

      1. kozinskey*

        Someone in our office listens to headphones at such a loud volume I can hear it, too. It makes me unreasonably uncomfortably.

      2. kozinskey*

        Someone in our office listens to headphones at such a loud volume I can hear it, too. It makes me unreasonably uncomfortable.

      3. Anon-4-this*

        Heh, I get a perverse sense of satisfaction out of flushing while someone’s on the phone. Like, you chose the location, you suffer the consequences!

    11. Bekx*

      One of our interns didn’t flush the toilet when I was in the stall next to her! She walked in with me, so she knew I was there.

      We washed our hands, she left…I checked and yup. Girl needs to drink more water. So I did the impossibly hard task of flushing for her.

      Wtf.

      1. Bea W*

        People do this all the time when they poop. There was one person at a former workplace who had a BM every morning and just let it soak.

      2. Dana*

        A friend of mine works in a place where everything is automatic, the toilet flushing, the soap dispenser, the water, the paper towel, and I’ve definitely caught her not turning off the water in a restaurant. But I don’t know how you wouldn’t realize nothing flushed…

        1. Bekx*

          She didn’t even flush at all! I kiiiinda get it if you flush and run out and don’t realize it was a half-flush, but she didn’t even try!

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            Would that were the case in my office! A few weeks ago the thing flushed *four times* while I was sitting on it. I think it gets confused if I wear all black?

            1. Seal*

              One of the places I worked had a bathroom like that. It also had motion detector lights. The lights went off very shortly after they stopped detecting motion, so if you were the only one in the bathroom and sitting down to do your business, the lights would go off. You would have to move to turn the lights back on, which would trigger the automatic flush on the toilet, which was also a motion detector. Even a quick pee would result in at least a couple of flushes unless you wanted to sit in the dark, windowless bathroom. The whole campus was billed as being green, but I was never sure what all that overactive technology in the bathroom was saving.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                Ok, that just reminds me of the Better Off Ted episode with the automatic light problem. I think in real life, that would be an awful thing to happen in a bathroom.

              1. Colette*

                When I was last in London, some public toilets had a sensor on the wall. When you needed to flush, you waved your hand over the sensor. It was simple and brilliant.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  Love those. Also the Dyson Airblade hand dryers. I wish we had them here. And my favorite thing of all–the walls on the stalls in UK loos go almost all the way to the floor. If you must put your bag on the floor, you don’t have to worry about a random person snatching it from underneath, or kicking it or the toilet roll out where you can’t reach it.

                2. OhNo*

                  I saw those toilets, too, and they’re pretty great! I really liked that the sensor for all the ones I saw wasn’t right behind the seat – so you could move around while sitting without triggering it, but it was still motion-sensitive when you were actually ready to flush.

                  I wish we had that kind in my office, not the automatic kind that flush every time you take a deep breath.

                3. periwinkle*

                  Our building has autoflush sensors, but as a non-trusting person I use the magic power of hand-waving to manually trigger it. Also, we have the Dyson Airblade hand dryers (as do a lot of Starbucks). So awesome, if I had one at home I’d wear contacts more often…

                4. Windchime*

                  Trying to reply to Elizabeth West. Our Ikea and Costcos have the Dyson air blade dryers, at least here in the PNW. I love them; they are the only air dryers that actually work.

      3. Gene*

        For those of us who grew up in desert climates that admit they are deserts (yes, I’m looking at you SoCal), not flushing in this situation is autopilot. It takes mental effort to remember to flush.

        Maybe she was preoccupied with something else?

      4. HR Generalist*

        I’ve honestly done this at work and was mortified (including almost walking out on a #2 before!). Maybe I’m easily distracted but I grew up with a septic and the rule was not to flush unless it’s a #2. I also used a composting toilet for awhile. I don’t know if it’s a habit or what but I always do a double-check now to make sure I did flush before I leave the washroom!

    12. Bea W*

      I wonder if the woman who turns on the sink does so to help her go. I’ve heard of people doing that to help in situations where it’s just hard to go even when you have to go.

      1. Mabel*

        My ex had the same problem. Sometimes she couldn’t pee unless there was water running.

    13. Clever Name*

      I had a coworker who would wear black velour pants, so when she pulled her pants down to use the toilet, she would leave tiny velour hairs behind on the toilet seat (I am assuming this). Another coworker thought they were tiny and weird pubic or hairs from her rear end and was really relieved when I pointed out it was probably just from her fuzzy pants.

    14. Jaune Desprez*

      I once got a desperate call from my husband begging me to grab a pair of his trousers and bring them downtown to his office before he had to present at a big meeting. He had allowed his pants to touch the floor while he was using a bathroom stall, only to discover that they had absorbed most of a large puddle of urine left by a previous tenant.

    15. Vanishing Girl*

      Another pet peeve: people who don’t wash their hands afterwards!! At least pretend to wash for appearance’s sake.

      1. Allison*

        Ick, why?? I’ll be honest, when I was younger sometimes I’d skip washing my hands, but for some reason in college I became very aware of dirt and germs, and now if I even try to walk away from the bathroom without washing my hands my hands just feel weird, and I *have* to go back and wash them.

        1. Vanishing Girl*

          Yeah, if I try to just rinse my hands without soap I start to feel weird and have to wash them properly. But I like to wash my hands: it feels nice to get all that dirt off.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            Generally, all the soap does is get you to wash a bit longer, which is what does the good. The water and time get the germs off, the soap has little effect, except on your feelings.

        2. Cruciatus*

          I was actually the exact same way. As a teen I was even anti-hand washing but eventually some wisdom kicked in. I can’t leave a restroom without washing my hands (although I’m not as obsessed about clean hands as some of my coworkers who are constantly rubbing Germ-X on their hands). I work at a med school and whenever a student leaves without washing their hands I want to screeeeaaammm at them. It’s not going to get less germy from here, folks! Although, some of these students are jerks when they DO wash their hands. There are 2 doors to get out of the restroom so they will use a paper towel to open the door then the other door then throw it on the floor in the little “foyer” between the two doors so the cleaning people can pick it up later. Rude.

          1. Beezus*

            A lot of public bathrooms have a trash can near the door for exactly this reason.

    16. Catlady*

      That is really disgusting. At first I thought you meant the office seat and I was like WTF?? I’m not sure how you could address that with the office. But I mean, how does that even happen? Does this person itch themselves to the point that hair is falling out??? If so shouldn’t they get checked for some kind of yeast infection? It might seem passive aggressive, but I might put up a sign that says something like “Please make sure to clean up after you’re done.” Not referring to the actual type of cleaning….

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        Could you imagine if it was the office seat? Woah. That would be a whole different issue.

        I’ve thought about making a sign, but its a shared bathroom in an executive park. Other offices are using it too.

        1. Mabel*

          I bet if you make signs for the inside of the stall doors and put them up, they would stay for a while.

    17. Oldblue*

      So here is a question about casual interviewers….

      I applied to a job advertised on a company website that didn’t have much description of the job. That may seem a little crazy, but its title was a type of job in my industry so it’s forgivable. Anyway, I got an interview, and when I wrote to confirm the interviewer, who would also be my supervisor, signed their first name. Does that mean I should call this person by their first name at the interview or should I stick to a title? I’ve done quite a lot of research on the company and they seem to have a similar atmosphere to a place I interned at, which was sort of casual. I don’t mean that I’d come to the interview in jeans and smack gum, but am I allowed to call this person by their first name?

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        I think it’s fine to use their first name so long as you don’t leave any pubic hair in the bathroom when you’re interview is over.

        Sorry, couldn’t help myself. I realize you meant to post this elsewhere. In all seriousness, if they used their first name I’m sure you can use it too. I always do and it’s never been an issue.

      2. Rowan*

        I don’t think calling an interviewer by their first name is even casual. I think that’s normal for just about everywhere, unless you’re being interviewed by the president.

      3. Beezus*

        It’s very normal to call people by their first names in the workplace, regardless of their position or title.

        1. the gold digger*

          I had to be told, in my first job after college, that “Here we are on a first-name basis.”

          They were all so old. They were my mom and dad’s age. How could I possibly call them by their first names?

    18. matcha123*

      I also have someone leaving love crumbs on my work toilet seats. And don’t get me started on the squat toilets. How is this not even my country and I can aim better than you all? No excuses.

      Oh, and the people that don’t flush. How can you not notice that? This is not an automatic toilet with a sensor, it needs some manual labor. Argh!

    19. Treena Kravm*

      Ah yes, during the first month on the job, I’m getting these wild listserv emails about the bathroom in my office that I never go to. Apparently people were leaving streaks of poop all over the toilet bowl and then leaving it?? I wish I could remember details, but the director of the location’s pleas to please stop it were kind of hilarious, in a glad-I’m-not-there kind of way.

    20. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      I do hope that you have seen Broad City- one of the characters frequently has to deal with “pube situations” at her job at a fitness studio

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        I have not seen it, but now I am going to look it up.

    21. Pee Shy*

      There is actually an anxiety disorder called Paruresis that I suffered from pretty severely for 10+ years where you can’t pee in public places. I’ve actually had to be catheterized at the hospital more than once because no matter how badly I had to go, I just couldn’t get it out (and it wasn’t for physical reasons–I got checked out). Even though I’m 95% better and can go in public restrooms, airplanes, and in the woods most of the time these days, I still DESPISE public restrooms in the U.S., because most of the time the walls and door don’t go down to the floor, which in my mind is just barbaric. While the water wastage would get to me too, I wouldn’t blame anyone for running the water just to be able to pee during the day–I can’t tell you how painful it is to hold it all damn day. And feel like a freak because you can’t do something that is physically necessary to life, because your brain has decided nope, not here, not today!

      1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

        I would never expect someone to hold it in all day just to save a little water. That would be awful. I didn’t realize this was an issue. But now that I do, I won’t let it bother me so much. Sorry you have to deal with that.

        1. Pee Shy*

          No worries, it’s much better now. It’s a very little-known problem because people really don’t talk about it, for obvious reasons…it’s embarrassing to admit to, and relates to functions usually considered to be private. I’ve never once seen a doctor or therapist who had ever heard of it…I only stumbled upon the term and a support website accidentally online one day. Ah, all the varieties of human experience never cease to amaze me!

          1. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

            Interesting. I have sort of an opposite issue… overactive bladder. There are times when in a 15 minute span I have to pee 3 times, urgently. It’s so bad that you’d think I was holding it in all day. If I am out and away from bathrooms when it strikes, I’m in real trouble. I have had to hold it for lengthy periods before because I wasn’t near a bathroom. Once I was stuck in traffic on a bridge for 4 hours. No where to go. It was pure misery. And then there have been times that I’ve waited so long and had to go so bad that I almost can’t go because my muscles have tightened so much just to keep it in. I completely understand the pain of holding it in.

            1. Pee Shy*

              That sounds terrible too! I get the muscles tightening thing–I think that and the anxiety play off each other. A urologist told me once that when your bladder muscles get really overextended from holding it, they have a hard time contracting again to squeeze it out. And now we’re totally off topic, so back to our regularly scheduled programming…. :)

              1. HRWitch*

                My company requires all new employees pass a urinalysis drug test, to be taken care of between the conditional offer and setting the start date. The clinic called to say that one gentleman couldn’t produce a sample. He showed up in my office a day later with a note from his doctor regarding his medical condition, so we arranged for a ($400+) blood test in order to confirm his start date. Since then, we’ve had this same condition come up in several other candidates; it is apparently more common than one might think.

            2. Really anon for this one!*

              I’m pretty sure I have an overactive bladder too, and it’s no fun. :( What’s the worst is mine hits suddenly and with no warning. One minute I’m fine, the next I’m in an epic internal struggle to not let anything out.

              And there have been plenty of times where my conscious self has lost battle. :(

      2. Marcela*

        I’m more bothered by the big gap in bathroom doors. Why?! People can look at me, in the eyes, when I’m in there!

    22. Hlyssande*

      Happiness is being the first person in the stall on Monday morning. I know because the seat is still up after cleaning.

      Ahhh, clean seat.

      1. Windchime*

        Unless you’re coming in after my coworker, who is a woman from Russia and who inexplicably pees with the seat up. I suspect she might be a “hoverer” but I’m not sure.

        1. AnotherFed*

          I have accidentally done this when not paying enough attention. :( Especially at work, where I’m still thinking about whatever I was working on, and just forget to put the seat down.

    24. Tiny Tim*

      She probably has a shy bladder and that’s the only was she can go “in public”. I used to have the same problem

    25. The Case of the Mysterious Pubic Hair*

      I’m curious, with all the talk of food in the bathroom on this thread (which I also think is completely gross), is there a difference between bringing food, opening food, eating food in the bathroom vs. washing you dishes in the bathroom sink or brushing your teeth? I also think this is really disgusting, but I have received mixed feedback when I have mentioned it in the past. Is it just me or is this still totally gross to most people?

    28. "The same thing you are."*

      Re the pubic hair: there are some cultures that have a belief system where one needs to be very, very careful about the disposal of hair and nail trimmings. In the hands of a skilled enemy, these could bring about serious problems via the use of sympathetic magic.

      It might be interesting to talk this up down at the office, and see if it makes any difference as word spreads.

  2. Mockingjay*

    Need a professional response to demeaning remarks, and general omission of my presence.

    I am a technical writer. On my current toxic project (on a federal DoD contract), a part of my job is to take minutes for specified technical meetings. That’s fine, these are deliverables on the contract. And I take excellent minutes, because I have the technical background to understand the subjects. My main job is to write engineering reports, technical processes, and program management plans.

    Government project boss figured out that I am semi-intelligent and actually listen in meetings, so he pulled me from doing most technical deliverables. For the last year, I have done little more than take minutes for nearly every meeting – formal or internal, for over 60 people. (Never mind we have an Admin Assistant whose job it is to do minutes. She does a few of the smaller meetings, but that’s all.)

    The worst part is the snide comments in each meeting from multiple staff – Government and contractor:
    -“Mockingjay, write that down.” (Laughs.)
    -“Don’t write that down.” (Refers to joke or politically incorrect statement.)
    -“Mockingjay, did you write down the action items?” (Tone of incredulity, as if they don’t believe I was paying attention.)
    -“Did you catch that?” “Did you get that?” “Did you write all that down?”
    These commenters are not looking for affirmation that I caught an important point. It’s a horrible, snarky tone, by multiple persons, including the Government lead.

    It’s patently obvious that I take detailed, accurate notes and produce well-written, nicely formatted documents, because I keep being asked to do more of them (I have done over 50 sets of minutes in the last year), and I have received written commendations for several. Most of the internal meetings don’t even require minutes; I am simply writing down staff homework assignments because they are too lazy to do it. Never mind that we have a massive database with a task tracking tool they can use.
    And then there is the “invisibility” factor.

    At the start of a meeting or teleconference, the attendees go around the room and introduce themselves or announce who’s on the line. I am omitted each time – as the minute taker, I apparently have no status.

    Last week, our project sponsor was on site for several teleconferences to discuss teaming with another project, with participants dialing in across the country. During the introductions, when my agency team omitted me as usual, he stopped the meeting (shocked that they would be so rude) and ensured I had the opportunity to introduce myself and greet the teleconference participants. My team was flabbergasted to realize that I have an established professional relationship with the team lead from the other project – we had worked together years prior and have kept in touch.

    While I know the long-term solution is to find another job, how can I respond to these unprofessional behaviors in the interim? So far I have given no response or only repeated back the list of items.

    2. Future Analyst*

      For introductions, is it possible to jump in and introduce yourself? It’ll make people feel awkward, but they’re being incredibly rude. You can do so light-heartedly, as if it’s an honest mistake that they “forgot” to include you. Do it every time, and eventually they will include you as well, or at least pause for you to introduce yourself.

      As for their snotty remarks asking if you wrote down whatever, I would just respond nicely by reading back what you have (as it pertains to what they’re asking). They’re being rude, and snotty, and it’s totally uncalled for, but I think your best bet is to stay completely professional. This may include quickly stopping by the worst offender after the meeting, and asking “is there anything you’d like me to do differently during note-taking? I’ve noticed that you seem concerned that I’m not noting important information.”

    3. Sunflower*

      This sucks! So since you are getting pulled into all these meetings, does that take you away from other work you should be doing? Can you approach your boss and say ‘Boss, I have these projects to work on and taking the minutes for meetings is taking up a lot of my time that I need to spend doing this. Is it possible that the admin come in to do this?’

      1. fposte*

        Agreed here. This is a good arrangement for them, so they’re not going to change it unless you ask them to. Is there a pay differential that would help you make this point? “Given the difference in the hourly rate, you’re paying xx more per meeting just to have me take notes intead of somebody else.”

      2. Mockingjay*

        The boss originally wanted me as the Admin Assistant. I am not trained for that, nor am I interested in organizing his life. I have been doing systems engineering and software development documents for nearly 20 years – the tech side is my true love. Boss is hot-tempered; when I initially requested that I be returned to the technical assignments, he accused me of not being a team player and threatened to throw me off the project. (Very mature.)

        He has since realized that the quality of documentation is falling considerably, and is starting realize, that gee, maybe I should return to the job for which I was hired. The new Admin is being trained (I’ve worked with her considerably – I like her and she’s smart), and is starting to pick up more of the meetings.

        Unfortunately, the rest of the staff still views me as Admin, so I have to deal with them as well. There is an underlying issue that I am female and the other tech writer is male. He is NOT asked to do these things.

        1. Anna*

          Then that’s your opening. “I’m concerned that I’m asked to do these things when Male Human Tech Person is not. Is there a way we can more evenly divide up these minute-taking duties?” I would think most people will get the message pretty clearly.

          1. Cath in Canada*

            I agree. Or maybe even proactively come up with a schedule, listing who’s going to take minutes at each meeting, and present it to the boss as “I need to spend more time on the work I was originally hired to do, so here’s my proposal for how to share the more admin-type tasks more equitably”. If you get pushback about “but but but, Technical Writer!, just restate your own title.

            I sympathise, OP. I know minutes are important, and I take pride in doing them well, but it’s not a task I ever actually look forward to…

        3. LisaLee*

          For the rest of the staff, could you start redirecting their admin needs to the actual admin without getting much grief for it? If someone asks you to do a thing that is actually the new admin’s job, you could try, “Oh, I’m actually working on [real duties] right now. I was happy to fill in while we were in the process of hiring Lucinda, but that is really her area now.” You might also try repeating the “I was happy to do this TEMPORARILY” line with your boss if you think he’d respond well (or at least not incredibly poorly) to it.

          Are you very close with the other tech writer? Could you ask him to volunteer to take the minutes one meeting? At the very least, this will give you a break, and if your boss says, “I hired Male Writer to be a tech writer” you can point out he hired you for that too.

        4. AnotherFed*

          Time for a new job – I know we’d pretty much kill for people who like to write software and SE docs where I work. This is especially true for people who have the technical background that means they’re able to write up the documentation based on conversations, meetings, and playing with the software rather than needing one of the devs to pretty much write it for them.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m very lucky to have a great client. In fact, I worked directly with the lead in another capacity, not as a contractor to them. But this isn’t that unusual in Government contracting, probably because they feel threatened by contractors, some of whom could do their jobs and are being paid significantly less.

      I know there are many hard-working, brilliant Feds out there, I have worked with many of them. But in my experience, those with this kind of attitude usually don’t deserve those modifiers.

      All I can say is that it’s not right, but it’s also not uncommon, so just think of them as bad customers whose business you need in order to keep the lights on, and start looking at either other contracts or other consulting companies, because they’re not all like this. Not by a long shot.

    5. Kai*

      My manager does that “did you catch that?” thing to me all the time, and it drives me up a wall. I completely sympathize. Like, yes, I was brought in here specifically to take notes, and you can see me typing on my tablet/writing in my notebook.

    6. Technical Editor*

      I feel you on this. I used to work for state government doing technical writing, and I was also asked to do minutes. My boss was a male chauvinist and took it as a sign of manliness to demean women. I’m a confident person so I didn’t have any problem asserting myself in a room, speaking up, or calling my boss out. In fact, when I called him on his behavior, he respected me a little more.

      The next time they pass you on introductions, go ahead and do it anyway? You’ll keep being invisible if you let them think you are. Also, sit at the table, and not in the corner, if they can.

      1. Jen RO*

        Very vaguely related, I hope your job is as cool as it sounds on your LinkedIn profile! I wish I could be a technical editor full-time – the lack of consistency in our technical documentation drives me up the wall, but I simply don’t have time to handle everything. (I’m a tech writer in a country where the field is tiny, I only know of one or two companies that have technical editors, and I am sure my job would be the first on the line if I did get hired as a technical editor… but damn does it sound good.)

    7. Rat Racer*

      Hi MockingJay – that is awful. I just posted something below about how I am a terrible note-taker, and based on your post, I am starting to think that it takes a certain kind of intelligence to be able to capture a meeting accurately and succinctly. Most people can transcribe a conversation but it’s much, much harder to sift through and filter out the waffling and tangents and record just the important key points that will be relevant for everyone around the table.

      From my perspective there are two problems here: 1) you’re being asked to take notes all day which is totally boring and yuck who wants that job? and 2) you’re really good at taking notes, which is a highly valuable skill that is being totally under-valued and you’re being treated disrespectfully.

      To me, it sounds like #1 is the bigger problem and #2 just pours salt into your wounds. Is there a way to talk to your boss about expanding your roles and responsibilities? What projects would you like to be working on instead? If I had someone like you on my team, I would be so worried about losing you that I would make sure you had interesting work to do AND have you train others in the department on taking good notes in meetings.

      Goes without saying that people should be nicer and respectful in meetings, and think about what creek they would be up if they didn’t have you there to sift through all the chit-chat.

    8. Althea*

      I’m not sure this is a time for acting 100% professional. These are bullies, and they are bonding with each other through shared laughter – laughter aimed at you and elicited by bullying. I honestly do not believe that bullies understand any communication not related to this sort of dominance/bullying.

      The number one tactic to defeat this is to be funnier than they are. If you can do this in a nice way, it’s best, but even in a mean way can work. The goal is to turn their laughter around to laughing with you, and making them admire you aplomb and wit. Then you are part of the group, and you can generally revert to being nicer and more professional.

      Unfortunately, I, like most people, do not have the talent for being funny on the fly like that. Even when I manage it, I’m usually sarcastic and mean, and the person I am talking about is pretty unhappy even if everyone else laughs – making an enemy there.

      So the other thing to try is to play dumb and take everything literally. Like someone said, reading out the minutes when they ask “did you catch that?” or replying calmly, “I have omitted it.” The object of this is to make their jokes so boring they are no longer funny. This will likely cause them to stop, though you have to be on the lookout for them finding another “joke” to take out on you.

      Finally, you could try to get to know them individually and see if you can become buddies with a few. (They sound like jerks, so this may not be palatable.) Or do some of them a favor that only you could deliver. But if one or two of them come to like and/or respect you, they’ll probably cool it with the snark and refrain from the snickers, again making the “joke” go over like a lead balloon.

      I hope it helps! Sorry you have to deal with this middle school BS.

      1. MommaTRex*

        Actually, it might be better to find a way to have one of them do a favor for her. It sounds backwards, but it can really work – the psychology behind it is that the person doing the favor has to reconcile why they did that favor for the other person: “Since I did this for favor for them, it must be because I admire and respect them.” Ben Franklin used this tactic to win over a former rival; he asked to borrow a book from him and the whole relationship changed. Maybe I’ll try to dig up a reference to that story somewhere.

        2. Althea*

          That’s interesting! I’ve never heard that before. I suppose the big question is how to get them to do the favor…

          1. fposte*

            You just ask them. Make it something small that they’re not likely to mind doing and that you know they can do. “Hey, Dick, do you still have that ethernet cable in your office? Could I borrow it from you? The wifi in my office is being wonky.”

            1. College Career Counselor*

              Of course, you’ll have to keep a certain verbal emphasis off the name in your example. ;-)

              1. fposte*

                I should have lower-cased it to make it clear that would work as the address for any of them.

    9. puddin*

      Like much of AAM advice says, it is time to speak up. When the snide comments begin, “I’m sorry I don’t think we have time for this.” And like Future Analyst says jump in an introduce yourself to the conference call – every time its needed. Not only is it rude to you when you are not announced, it is rude to the people on the phone who should be made aware of all the participants.

      Finally, my thoughts on why the snark is occurring…It seems they do not value the skills you provide or the task you are performing. What I imagine them sarcastically saying is “Wow those meeting minutes are important har har derp.” My guess is they don’t value them or they value them less than you or your boss, therefore they do not value/minimize you.

      I would call your own meeting with the offenders and point blank ask them if they have a problem with how the minutes are written or distributed or ??? And tell them WHY you are asking this question – you get the distinct impression from the in-meeting banter that your contributions – the minutes – are not that important. If they answer that the minutes are useless or not as useful as they could be, investigate with them on how to make it better. Whatever their response, you have said your peace, counted to three, and hopefully have explained to them the effect of their behavior.

      I would avoid calling them snarky or opening up about how you feel about anything in this case. Take a professional problem-solving approach. “How might we make the meeting minutes most useful to you?”

      If after all of this continues, next time it happens, I would scowl and say, “Knock it off.” But that might not be the best advice, most likely that’s what I would do though.

      1. Althea*

        I think this kind of direct talk will only elicit worse behavior. In the meeting itself, they will pretend they are not snarky, and that their comments about the minutes are sincere concern about their quality. They will then take you less seriously for not understanding that they are making fun of you, and their bad behavior will get worse. Acting irritated/angry will encourage them and they will find it even funnier.

    10. the_scientist*

      Ugh, The Worst. I’d say this is like 75% of the reason I left my first post-grad-school job. You are correct that you will need to find a new job, because once people start seeing you as “the minute taker”/admin assistant, they will not change that perception, no matter how often you remind them of your actual title. At old job, I was introduced during a phone meeting as the “program admin assistant” by one of our leads; my actual title was research associate. NOT THE SAME.

      My experience is that I cannot take minutes and also participate meaningfully in a meeting. Do you think you could go to your boss with concerns that you aren’t able to fully contribute while also taking minutes and that it’s critical that you are able to participate in the meetings so could actual admin assistant please do the minutes? Perhaps you could even propose a rotating minute-taker (I don’t for one second think your boss will be okay with this, but maybe he’s enough of a jerk to imply that note-taking is “women’s work” and you can call him on that).

      Also, during phone meetings? Interrupt and introduce yourself. Yes, it’s rude, but it’s ruder for you to be left out. Be sure to also introduce yourself with your actual title, so the implication is “is here to contribute to meeting” vs. “is the assistant who is here to take minutes”. But yeah, you’ll need to leave to fix this problem.

    11. Christy*

      What these people are saying doesn’t sound too different from what I hear when I take meeting minutes. (The tone sounds really different so I’m not saying we’re in the same situation, at all.) Sometimes I internally roll my eyes at “Don’t write that down”, but what I usually do is raise my hands up (like I’ve been caught red-handed) and smile/laugh and say “Don’t worry”. Basically, I treat it like they’re joking with me instead of joking at me. (And often, they are joking with me, so it’s not an issue like it is for you.) But could you pretend they’re joking with you? They’ll also ask me to make sure I have something and I’ll either say “yeah, I got that” or something like “What, you still don’t trust me?” or “No faith!” while smiling.

    12. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … can you take this up with your contract boss? It sound like the contract admin assistants didn’t do a good enough job taking minutes to the govt boss asked for someone better – you – to do it. It’s in the govt’s right to ask, but for most contracts the vendor has to deliver the deliverable and the government doesn’t tell them how or who does it. That’s up to the contract company. So it’s up to your contract boss to fix that part of the problem.

      Is it possible for you to give your boss a heads up that you’re so unhappy with the situation that you’re job hunting? So he knows if he wants to keep you he has to reduce the meeting minutes you take and let you get back to tech writing.

    13. waffles*

      Hi Mockingjay. I’m a public sector technical writer, and my co-worker and I were recently asked to take non-technical meeting notes for a director-level meeting. The director has an administrative assistant who currently completes this task, but the director feels we would do a much better job.

      We declined with full support from our boss. As a way to be helpful, I offered to meet with the admin assistant and help her come up with a new template for the meeting notes. I also feel like her boss should be more supportive of her and help her to develop her skills if needed instead of giving her responsibilities away.

      I’ve heard from other writers that this is a common problem in this field. Some orgs understand that this is a professional field; others see us as “people who type and make things look pretty.” (If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me to “spiff this up”…)

      Are you an STC member? I’m a member of one of the special interest groups, and we recently had a group discussion about this very topic. Some writers are ok with taking notes, others would prefer not to but do it anyway, and others just say no.

      I’m so sorry that you’re overlooked in your meetings–that’s not ok! That must be disheartening, especially when you’re doing a great deal of good work for this team. Is there anyone you can talk to about this on your team? Who do you report to, and could you find some support there?

      For starters, could you simply ask to be included in the round of introductions? Would you feel comfortable with a short, friendly, matter-of-fact request, something like, “Joe, when we meet on Tuesday, could you please include me in the introductions? I feel it’s helpful for our clients to know who is in attendance.”

      Also, can you open an conversation about moving back to producing deliverables?

      Good luck.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Thanks, Waffles. Unfortunately, my company boss is out of state. I work for a small company with not a lot of defense contracting experience. I am not a current member of STC, but do belong to several other tech writing orgs.

        I am an old-school technical writer. I was trained 30 years ago when technical writers were engineers and technicians with good writing skills, and persons without that background could only be classified as editors. (Contracts were very clear about the distinction.) I worked very hard to attain technical qualifications: I crafted my degree to suit – English with a minor in hard sciences and mathematics, spent endless hours in the field side by side with the technicians, took endless classes and certs, and so on. In fact, my labor category on the contract is Subject Matter Expert, the same as most of the engineers. (Note: I have 20 years’ experience total – career took a pause for my wonderful girls.)

        I noticed a shift in attitude about 6 or 7 years ago. With budget cuts, contracts eliminated a lot of admin positions and simply dumped the duties on the technical writers. Nothing against administrative personnel; as I stated earlier, I am not trained to be one. I also think tech writing has become a fad career. I’ve met a lot of people who told me, “I’m going to be a tech writer because I have good English skills and it’s good money” and then are overwhelmed because they literally do not understand the information in the document. I think my government boss’s expectations were tainted by prior writers on the contract who fell into that group. He looked at me one day and told me I had no technical background. Did he not remember reading my resume?

        1. waffles*

          That is indeed a wealth of solid experience. I hope you find a job that is a better fit soon–any place would be lucky to have you!

          I understand what you’re saying about the change in the field. I also think it’s just always going to be one of those professions that is undervalued and misunderstood. I’m super introverted and shy, and I find it challenging that part of my job is to sell myself, explain my value, and explain the technical communication body of knowledge. But, I love this field and so it’s worth it to me.

          I have an English degree too, but I fell into the IT world and worked as a systems admin for about 10 years. I then went back to school and got a certificate in technical writing. I hated IT, but I’m also very, very grateful for that experience. My current manager told me he hired me because of it. The right people will value your background. It sounds like you’re in the wrong place.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I think you should use the meaty part of your second paragraph to introduce yourself. I think it would make most people think before they speak to you.

        3. AnotherFed*

          I think at least in many places, lots of new grads are getting picked up for entry level roles called technical editors or technical writers. In most cases, they are just doing formatting and normal editing, without having any technical background.

          The true technical writing that you are talking about is either falling to the engineers themselves, or getting called Systems Engineering. SE is bigger than just this piece, but I see a lot of SEs who just focus on developing documents – generating the technical content and expressing it clearly enough that the intended audience knows what they are supposed to do, whether it’s building something according to an assembly document, coding software to match proposed GUI mock ups, or writing an interface document that actually makes sense.

    14. A Teacher*

      Use the good old Carolyn Hax “Wow” (I know Alison is a big Hax fan) when they make the comment, or directly call them on it with “Did you have a comment?” or “What was that?” or even “Excuse me?” I find that seems to work with high school kids that I teach. The “wow” in stunned silence often works better… calls them on being an ass without actually saying they’re an ass.

    15. Mockingjay*

      General thanks to everyone who has responded today. I knew I would get some helpful feedback (and some nice soothing sympathies!) from the AAM family!

    16. Mabel*

      Regarding the snarky requests for confirmation that you included something in the minutes: instead of reading it back to them, could you just say, “yes, I have that”? It just makes me so angry on your behalf that you have to respond to these jerks, so my inclination is to respond as briefly as possible (since they already know you DID take the appropriate notes because you ALWAYS do).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am bothered by the snark, too. Watch to see how they speak to each other, it could be that they are doing this to each other, also. This is important to know.

        I think what I would do is say, “Have I failed you, yet?”, in a soft tone but with a look on my face that says I know I have not failed them.

        Conversely, some people just let anything they think of fall out of their mouths. So this could be what is going on. It’s nice to have some professional ideal to subscribe to, but if that ideal behavior/communication does not reach the person talking at you, then it is not much good.
        I am fan of matching what comes at me. There is a person that will say to me, “Did you get THAT done, YET?” I will say, “Are YOU back again? Keep coming back and it will never get done because of all interruptions.” But people with a softer approach get a softer answer. “I will be done later today and I will come find you when it I have it ready.”

        In a group like this they could be encouraging each other by actions and that perpetuates the remarks. I’d pick the loudest/biggest offender and say something. “Yes, I have that Bob. No worries, I will ask people to repeat something if I need it.” OR If I am really fed up, “Yes, I have that Bob. Have I failed you guys yet??” (I say things like this when I know I have nailed the task/job.)

        The problem with silence is that people read silence as “it’s okay, keep doing x or y”. So your silence may feel professional to you, but they do not understand that your silence means they are ticking you off.

    17. Mz. Puppie*

      Mockingjay, if you are a contractor to government, then your company and you are being paid to deliver very specific things. Your supervisor at the contracting company should take up the mantle for you to stop doing anything that is not contracted for.

      I came into a contractor-t0-government job 6 months ago, and immediately offloaded all the crap work by going to my boss and pointing out that none of this work is in our contract. In fact, other contractors on-site were ostensibly being paid to do that exact work and had been getting away with neglecting it. My supervisor immediately pulled me from all that out of scope scut work. It was hard on the government folks who had to learn a new way of doing things, but I just explained (repeatedly) that these tasks are out of scope for me, and they need to instead contact XYZ.

      If meeting minutes are not in the contract with your company, then you shouldn’t be doing them. Period.

  3. BRR*

    I’m currently job hunting and having a little trouble with references. I have two former managers who will provide outstanding references. I’m having trouble coming up with a third. I can’t think of anybody who can attest to the quality of my work who I would feel comfortable asking and who I could ask without revealing that I am looking. I know the usual alternatives to a manager but I’m coming up dry (no people who have seen a lot of my work, not even a former professor). This is killing me with ATS where I’m required to put three references in. Any suggestions?

    1. Sunflower*

      I’m not sure what you do but what about a coworker or other person you work with? I work with a lot of vendors and use one of them a reference.

    2. Delyssia*

      I sympathize, as I remember the “struggling to find enough references” stage of my career all too well.

      I recommend trying to think of *everyone* you have worked with who has any idea of the quality of your work. Even if that’s just for a single project you worked on together. Colleagues can work as references, especially if you have a colleague who trained you or who was team lead for a project, but even one you’ve collaborated with or who otherwise can speak to your work. Think about internal and external clients, or even vendors. Are there managers who you’ve helped out on a specific project or something outside of your usual scope?

    3. Retail Lifer*

      I have several previous bosses who have said they would give me a reference but then never returned calls from reference checkers when needed. I substituted a couple of former co-workers and they were happy to do it for me…and actually DID return the calls. Co-workers often know what you’re doing better than a manager does anyway.

    4. Nanc*

      Do you have any volunteer experience? Maybe someone from that organization would serve as a reference. Even if it’s walking dogs for the shelter or taking tickets for a non-profit theater, they could at least confirm you show up on time, are appropriately dressed and groomed and the dogs/patrons love you.

    5. KJR*

      As someone who does the hiring (and therefore the reference checking) for my company, I can offer a perspective from the other side. This is not all that uncommon, so I would do as other commenters have recommended and find former co-workers or vendors/customers who could also speak to your previous performance. Generally speaking I am comfortable with this approach. Especially if all three of them are great ones, and are willing to speak to me in depth.

    6. Oldblue*

      I have this same issue with references…. I have two outstanding references, then I asked two professors of mine to be references and they said yes, but one lives out of town and the other is retiring…. I had to find a third reference, another professor. Finding references is VERY hard. The only thing I can suggest for you is, if you are younger and don’t mind, and it relates to work, take a summer class then use that professor as your reference. OR volunteer somewhere and use the supervisor as your reference.

      I know that some places are very strict about references, such as, NO CO-WORKERS, ONLY SUPERVISORS….. It’s so hard especially when you re starting out.

    7. Meg Murry*

      Anyone from your current job that has moved on, that you could trust not to tell your current co-workers? It doesn’t even need to be someone you did a lot of work with – if you did one project together, and did a good job on that, it could be enough. If you have 2 supervisors, I think a co-worker would be good enough for a third.

        1. MommaTRex*

          I recently gave a reference for a former co-worker. We only worked together on a few things, but I was able to give such detailed information and specific feedback on her work on those items that I think it made an excellent impression. Well, she was offered the job, anyway, so I’ll take some credit for my reference!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe she is looking for a third reference, too, and you could help each other. Or maybe you can find some thoughtful gesture to say/do in return for her willingness to help you.

    8. Lily in NYC*

      Does it have to be someone who managed you? What about a high-level person whom you didn’t report to but that you worked with and can vouch for you? I needed a fast reference once and my best reference was trekking in Tibet and reachable. I asked the managing editor (it was a magazine) if he would be willing to cover for her in a pinch and he was so great about it.

      1. Koko*

        I do this to round out my references. I try to have at least 2 supervisors because you don’t want to raise the question, “Why is she ONLY offering peers?” but I think in a lot of ways a high-level peer from a recent job can provide more valuable information than a supervisor from a much older job (especially if you’ve stayed a few years at each post, the supervisor from three jobs prior to your current one could be decade out of date).

        There’s also definitely a different dynamic when you’re a department head offering the head of another department as your peer reference than when you’re a customer service rep offering another customer service rep as a peer reference. There’s less expectation that you’ve banded together in solidarity and in opposition to your manager when you’re independently operating peers than when you’re members of the same team.

      2. BRR*

        It does not have to be somebody who managed me. This is my normal suggestion to others, high-level people who I have done work for. But there’s only one and it’s a stretch.

    9. Anx*

      This can be frustrating. I am torn between trying to narrow my focus with my volunteer work and really commit to what I am doing and diversifying my reference pool. I hate, hate, hate asking people to do these references, to the point where I have a hard time applying for jobs, as I don’t want to ‘waste’ a reference request. Also, several of my references haven’t worked with me for years. Long term unemployment is tricky like that.

      I am sure most employers would prefer a candidate focus on specific missions or goals, but the actually application process doesn’t really reflect that.

  4. Sunflower*

    I have a question about getting and keeping in touch when HR seems disconnected.

    My current job title is a planner. I applied for 2 jobs at the same company(a big company, Fortune 100) a couple months ago- one was a coordinator and one manager because my experience puts me right in the middle. These roles pop up as the company gains clients or their clients give them more business. I was contacted about the coordinator role by an internal recruiter and interviewed with the HM about 2 months ago but never heard back. This week a different internal recruiter contacted me but the recruiter didn’t know whether the HM(same one as before) wanted to talk to me about the manager or coordinator role. Interviewed with same HM and she said she was only filling the coordinator role then mentioned a different recruiter might be in touch with me about a planner role which falls in the middle of a coordinator and manager. She explained to me how the coordinator and planner role relate and it definitely sounds like I’d be more interested in the planner role.

    So 1. This HR process is kind of confusing. Is this normal? and 2. Should I email the recruiter who most recently contracted me and ask about the planner role or does that look bad? I’ve never dealt with a company who has so many different recruiters in the mix!

    1. TootsNYC*

      Yep, email the recruiter for the other job. In fact, point out to them that the Hiring Manager suggested you apply for it, and that she told you he (the recruiter) was the who was handling it; that’ll help move you to the top. I’m sure they won’t think it’s weird for you to specifically say, “I am very interested in that position, and I would like to be considered.” The Hiring Manager may be looking for that expression of interest from you; everybody will say, in an interview, “yes I’m interested,” but she is likely “qualifying the buyer” by looking for that initiative from you.

      It *is* weird to have more than one recruiter working for the same hiring manager. It’s not just you. But maybe it’s some sort of “I hire at this pay-grade level” thing.

      1. MsChnandlerBong*

        That’s what we did when I worked for a hospital that was part of a large healthcare system.

        Lucinda recruited nurses; Esmeralda recruited for high-level positions, such as department managers/directors, physician assistants, and nurse practitioners; Wakeen recruited for hourly clinical positions that tended to pay very little (medical assistants, phlebotomists, certified nursing assistants); and Becky recruited for clerical positions.

        The director of a particular unit might work with Lucinda to find a new nurse, Wakeen to find a nursing assistant, and Becky to find a unit secretary.

  5. New Job Overdressed?*

    I’m about to start a new job at a tech company (not a startup). The company has no dress code and everyone dresses very casually (shorts, flip flops, sweatpants, jeans are all fine). Would dressing more formally be an issue? I wouldn’t wear a suit to work or anything, but a nice dress, occasionally heels. I want to fit in with my coworkers, but the idea of dressing casually everyday just doesn’t thrill me. Any opinions?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think you should hold off for the first couple of weeks and get the lay of the land. At some places, dressing more formally is very noticed and even looked down upon– at others, it’s more about individual style.

      Since it’s almost summer (and already in the 80s here), you should be able to get away with summer skirts, dresses, and sandals, which are casual but still somewhat more dressy. I’d recommend going that route first as you figure out the office culture.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I think it’s probably fine. I work in a pretty casual industry but there are a few dandies here and there who like to wear sport coats and dress pants or a nice dress. Maybe it’s because advertising is supposed to be a creative field and therefore open to various forms of self-expression (because hair dye in all colors of the rainbow is OK for most of us, too), but no one seems to bat an eyelash as long as you’re consistent about your choices. (If you’re ALWAYS casual and suddenly start showing up in a more put-together look, then everyone will assume you’re interviewing. But if you show up looking spiffy once a week, it doesn’t attract attention.)

      Might be a bit different in tech but I have a feeling startup culture would allow for a bit of personal style in that way as well.

    3. Dawn*

      I say bump it up one level above everyone else, but don’t go higher than two levels. What I mean is if “normal” attire is jeans and flip flops, wear relaxed slacks and dressier shoes. If the dress code is as relaxed as you say, it’s going to look really, really, really weird for you to dress nicer than everyone else, DOUBLY so if you’re at a startup. Startups have completely different cultures than established offices and often actively rebel against “typical” professional office stuff like dress code, office hours, not having a beer cart, etc etc. Express your personal style however you see fit and dress however you will be comfortable, but don’t dress in a way that alienates your peers or makes it seem like you think you’re better than they are because you don’t wear sweatpants every day.

    4. Future Analyst*

      I think nice dresses would be fine (especially during the summer), but be careful about heels. They really kick up the dressiness (??) of an outfit, which may look out of touch with your environment. I think the balance here is to find the outer edge of what’s considered okay, and stick to that (so nice jeans with heels and a blouse, as opposed to a nice dress with heels). And congrats on the new job!

    5. Kyrielle*

      I’m about to switch companies, and I don’t normally do dress/heels, but I seldom wear jeans or shorts and they do all the time. I plan to use business-casual and casual slacks, and just go with my standard (and, as it happens, truthful) comment: “I know, but I don’t have much luck finding a pair of jeans that’s comfortable.” And then dress it down with the shirts if I need to – a t-shirt (even with no writing on it) will do a number on it.

      Do get the lay of the land before going wildly against style, but honestly, I think most places will be fine with it as long as it comes off as “Oh, that’s just what Kyrielle likes” and not “Yeah, Kyrielle thinks she’s better than us” – the other reason getting the lay of the land is good is, it lets them get to know you as a person, and lets you set the stage that you are not thinking yourself above them, you just like to dress up a a bit sometimes.

    6. Sparrow*

      Since it’s summer, I think dresses are fine. I rarely wear shorts, but I have a range of dressy to more casual dresses – depending on the material. You could wear casual dresses with sandals and a cardigan if it gets cold. In colder weather, I would stick to nice jeans, like a dark rinse with knit tops and cardigans. Also, if there is no dress code, and you’re so inclined, maybe you can experiment with different trends or types of clothing that might not always work in a more conservative office.

    7. SLG*

      I work at a tech company with a casual dress code (although engineers tend to dress more causally, and sales/client-facing folks more formally). I like to dress more formally, so here’s what I’ve found that works: combine one casual piece with one nicer piece. For instance: pencil skirt with t-shirt from technical conference, jeans with silk top. One bonus is I can enjoy wearing more-formal stuff without having to buy as much of it.

    8. Colette*

      Would you dress casually some days (say twice a week)?

      I do t think y,oh want to be the person who always dresses more formally, but you should be fine dressing more formally some of the time.

    9. Natalie*

      The style of the pieces matters more than their category, IMO. It sounds like a sheath dress, blazer and classic pumps would be a little too formal in your office, but a casual dress and more fun shoes (even if they were heals) would probably be fine.

      Another good trick (with pants) is to put together a business casual wardrobe, but just replace the dress pants with dressy jeans. You will look appropriately casual because of the jeans, but still fairly professional.

      1. Koko*

        Spot on. You can go a bit dressier, just not so much that it’s really jarring. A lot of workplace don’t allow open-toed shoes, but if this one has people wearing flip-flops then a sandal heel can be a great choice if you want to get some of that height without making the look as formal.

    10. Allison*

      I get it, I work in an office where jeans, nice tops, and either sneakers or nice shoes are the norm for most women, and guys wear nice jeans with button-downs. I’m flip-flops and sundresses these days. I, on the other hand, get a little more dressed up, sporting Mad Men inspired clothing and stuff from ModCloth, and no one seems to have an issue with it. Just don’t dress too many levels above most people. Being yourself is fine, but looking like a corporate drone might send the wrong message.

      Have you considered using accessories to “dress down” the dresses you’d like to wear. Sometimes the right shoes, cardigan, or necklace can make a huge difference.

      1. New Job Overdressed?*

        I don’t think I’ll look like a corporate drone, I’m just more into fashion than average.

    11. Sunshine Brite*

      I always feel like there’s someone at work who’s clearly into fashion even if it’s not the norm and feel more at home dressed up. I don’t think it would be an issue especially since with the more casual environment you can use the colors/patterns that fit you best and show personality.

    12. CheeryO*

      I agree that you should be careful about going two levels of formality above everyone else. At my job, jeans, sneakers, and a button down or polo are the norm for men, but we have a few guys who prefer to wear dress pants and nicer shoes. No one ever seems to talk about it, but I’ve heard plenty of snarky comments about the (very nice, very competent) dude who comes in wearing ties and sweater vests, looking like he’s straight out of a J. Crew catalogue.

      I do think women have more leeway on stuff like this. At least in my experience, as long as you’re not wearing a cocktail dress or a full suit, people are more likely to attribute your wardrobe choices to your ~personal style~ without giving it a lot of thought.

    13. TootsNYC*

      If you really want to dress up, I’d suggest you start some sort of “Oh, I always dress up on Mondays; it’s a thing with me” tradition of your own. Then you can do the heels, silk shirt, etc., thing, but not that often, and it also looks like a quirkiness thing.
      I did that in college; I looked in my closet and thought, “I have these nice clothes from my summer office job, but I never get to wear them! And I’m sick of these jeans.” So I dressed up. And someone snarkily asked me, “why are -you- all dressed up?” So I quipped back, without thinking, “I always dress up on Mondays.” Really? he said. “Yes, really,” and then I just always did it. It was fun, actually, to “have to” put on a skirt, blouse, heels on Mondays.

      Would be a bummer to have a wardrobe full of expensive clothes that you never get to wear anymore. And if you have to buy other clothes to replace them.

      1. onnellinen*

        That is great! My previous job was at a non-profit with a very casual dress code, as well. A few of us had more formal work clothes from previous jobs that we hardly wore, so we “instituted” Formal Fridays. It was just a small group of us, but it was kind of fun to have a day to dress up a bit.

    14. Anony-moose*

      I work at a nonprofit that is VERY relaxed. If you aren’t in a meeting, you’re wearing jeans, sneakers, a tshirt. While I try to take it up a notch with say, jeans and a blazer, I never really dress up unless I have a meeting.

      We had a team member who ALWAYS looked amazing. Pencil skirts, blouses, heels. Perfect hair, great jewelry. Fashion was important to her. And we all loved it. She became known as the fashionable one in the office and men and women alike came to her for fashion advice. So I think dressing up can work if you know your environment.

      1. New Job Overdressed?*

        I was the fashionable one at my last job. But my last job wasn’t in tech. Hopefully it will fly in my new office.

    15. Rat Racer*

      Is this tech company in California? If so, no one will care what you wear. Dress codes seem to have disappeared in San Francisco (which is kind of cool). If you walk into a fancy restaurant you will see women in evening gowns and women in jeans/tee-shirts.

      If you had a job where you actually needed to be casual (like a summer camp, or working as a personal trainer) that would be a different story. But I find it hard to imagine that anyone in their right mind would care if someone in the office wants to wear dresses and heels while they wear sneakers and sweats!

      Full disclosure: I work from home where no one sees me, and some days, I put on dresses and heels just because I’m sick of wearing pajamas. And on other days I wear pajamas.

    16. Artemesia*

      I have a relative interviewing in this industry. He interviews in a nice shirt and pants. He tells me that showing up in a suit would be entirely out of place and he has the big time job offers to suggest he isn’t wrong. I think I would dress conservatively but casually for awhile and check things out. Being the woman who wears cute casual dresses rather than flip flops and cut offs might work fine — but heels and dressier than casual skirts and tops or casual dresses might be out of place. There is a fine line between establishing a style, that is perhaps less sloppy than the norm and dressing up in a way that makes you look like you don’t ‘get it.’

  6. Sharon*

    Just need to vent. Lately I keep getting lots of really super bizarre questions from both external customers and internal coworkers. I’m pretty sure I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole and am about to meet the Mad Hatter.

    2. Jennifer*

      Sounds like my job. We are apparently the catchall, know everything answer everything no matter what it is office.

    3. Happy Lurker*

      It’s a party! Just waiting for the fun to start!
      But really, sorry to hear that and hope it gets better. Personally, I think that everyone is so busy they don’t read communications completely and then do as little as possible to get through the day.
      I repeat Hanlon’s Razor (which I found on AAM) often.

    4. Serin*

      I used to answer the phones for a state government’s forestry division. They got so many oddball questions that they actually had a designated Stupid Question Answering position, which rotated among the dozen or so forestry officers who worked in that office.

      At the front desk, we had a chart that told who was Staff Duty Officer that week, and I always knew that if I got a phone call that began, “I got this tree — well, really it ain’t my tree, it’s my neighbor’s tree –” it needed to go directly to the Staff Duty Officer (as soon as I could get a word in edgewise).

      1. CheeryO*

        OMG, I’m in a similar field, and I love hearing about all the weird questions that come in. People calling to report squirrels in their backyard, people asking what to do with the raccoon that they just shot, people mistaking super common, small birds for eagles or falcons… I know that not everyone needs to be a nature expert, but c’mon!

    5. Clever Name*

      So, can you share any of them? Anonomyzed, of course. Sometime the only thing that gets me through trying times is thinking about what a funny story it will be later.

  7. KJR*

    Anyone willing to share your progressive discipline policy? I’ve seen some that include suspension, some don’t, some included a PIP, some are just a final warning. Just looking to see what else is out there. Thanks!

      1. fposte*

        I don’t know anything about suspensions–how do they work? Are they for a standardized time? And do the coworkers who have to cover that position during the suspension get told why?

        1. Joey*

          You go home with no pay for however long I decide the suspension should be. Exempts are done in weeklong increments usually for FLSA purposes (although they do allow some exceptions). Obviously the length of the suspension is determined by severity/truthfullness/business impact. Sometimes if you can’t afford to go without pay I’ll let you give up leave instead.

          1. Joey*

            Oh. Co workers have no idea it’s a suspension unless the employee tells them. For all they know it’s scheduled leave

        2. KJR*

          The suspensions are where I am struggling…we’ve never actually used it, but it’s in the handbook. So I’m trying to decide its usefulness. I’m toying with the idea of throwing it out, and just doing verbal, written, final written/PIP, term. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I think the punishment should fit the crime. My husband was suspended once for Minor Thing and his supervisor yelled at the boss, “What did you do that for, now he is using his week off to job hunt.” (Yep, and found a new job.) Very seldom does removing the person from the situation help to fix the person’s situation. They are not going to learn to do a better job/be more careful/ etc by sitting at home. They will only learn that by staying IN the work environment. In my husband’s case, the boss lost a valuable person that basically did a great job but apparently only the supervisor was aware of this. Later, the supervisor quit, too.
            I feel that suspensions should be very rare, for example, if a person’s carelessness causes injury/damage– those extreme type of situations.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Verbal warning, two write-ups (the second is a final warning), you’re fired on the third. It doesn’t even have to be three offenses of the same nature.

      We’ll do a PIP in conjuction with a first write-up if the situation warrants it.

      Severe insubordination, violence, or major cash discrepancies might jump to a final warning without any priors.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          We had a guy get in a female manager’s face, raise his hand, and he was only stopped by security. He was sent home for the day and still had a job the next day. So yes, probably.

          1. ExceptionToTheRule*

            I’ve had co-workers throw furniture and not even get sent home for the day.

            1. Joey*

              Ive fired folks for just saying “let’s take it outside” or “you better watch your back”.

              1. Retail Lifer*

                I wish you worked here. We tolerate threats of violence, sexual harassment, and OSHA violations. God forbid you post something vague and semi-negative about the company on Facebook, though. Someone came REALLY close to being fired for that.

      2. A*

        why weird?
        We use it as a “take some time off and think about whether you can live by these rules/standard?”. When they come back we make them demonstrate they understand the problem and commit to fixing/changing it.

        If they don’t agree to change we consider it a quit (less UE exposure).
        If they agree we have a written committment that the employee understood, committed to changing, and understood the consequences.

        It avoids the whole I was trying my hardest/I didn’t understand/it wasn’t my fault stuff

        2. Steve G*

          My sister was suspended for a week in the mental health industry this winter when one of the patients snuck out of her classroom and ate food from the fridge. The rationale for the suspension was to give time to do the investigation for what happened (even though the investigation should have taken 2 minutes, which is why a suspension was pretty…useless).

          As it turns out, the fridge was supposed to be locked by someone else, so they were at fault. The facility took this seriously because patients are on special diets + they took it as a sign that she can’t handle a classroom (she says another patient was having a tantrum when that one snuck out).

          1. afiendishthingy*

            was this paid or unpaid suspension? I worked at a school for adolescents with developmental disabilities and any time Dept of Children & Families had to investigate a situation the staff involved would be suspended with pay while they investigated. I am not positive but I was under the impression my state required this.

            1. Steve G*

              It ended up being paid, but they didn’t tell her until after she was “allowed” to go back to work. The suspension was immediate, but they had to meet to tell her when she could come back and if she was going to get paid, so even though it was a week off, it definitely wasn’t a vacation, especially because people in that income bracket can’t swing an unpaid week, even when it’s planned. I felt bad. The suspension didn’t really teach anyone anything except that my sister needs to get a new job, and s*** is going to keep happening as long as they have too many autistic adults per employee.

            2. Steve G*

              To clarify, there was the possibility that it wouldn’t have been paid if the incident was her fault.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            This is par for the course in this industry, I’m afraid. As you said, the investigation should have taken 2 minutes.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Informally saying “why don’t you take a few days and think about this,” sure. But a formal suspension feels high-school-ish and punitive to me and out of sync with managing professional adults.

      3. Nerdling*

        Suspension without pay is definitely used in our organization. Depending on the severity of the offense, you might get off with as little as a letter of censure in your file, a brief (or long) suspension, the opportunity to resign, or flat-out fired. But those are more for behavioral infractions or rule-breaking. For poor performance, folks get PIP’d.

    4. BRR*

      We have various levels based on the infraction, this is not progressive steps:
      -verbal warning
      -written warning
      -I’m at this pre-PIP stage right now and it isn’t in the employee handbook (HR CYA). Everything I do is being documented and in a certain amount of time they will decided if I am put on a formal PIP.
      -PIP
      -Termination

      1. HR Generalist*

        +1 , we do it this way too. No suspensions other than “We need time to investigate and you need to not be here during that time”

    5. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      We have one, but there is an overarching statement that the policy does not have to be followed, and that the ED (me) and skip over any steps as appropriate. This was written to give me some room to skip steps when something really egregious happens or when, for example, I give a verbal warning, and the person responds saying they refuse to comply – it keeps me from having to go through more steps when it’s clearly unnecessary. Believe me, nobody has ever been surprised that I fired them.

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      Verbal reprimand, written warning with PIP, termination. My company doesn’t seem to do suspensions and in any case I can’t imagine a situation in which they’d be helpful to me as the manager.

    7. HRWitch*

      We have both union and non-union employees and use the same process for both. We start with coaching from the manager, move to a formal verbal warning, then written warning, performance plan (work quality) or final written warning (behavior – attendance for example), end with termination. We use suspension (called out as paid administrative leave) when investigating an incident (fist fight, harassment, discrimination, etc.) California doesn’t like unpaid suspensions.

  8. CollegeAdmin*

    I got a new job! As of July 1, I will be leaving my current admin assistant role and moving into the IT department as a data analyst/trainer. I’m so excited! :)

    But I have a question: Is it possible to take time off between leaving my current role (currently scheduled for June 30) and starting the new one? Could I take my vacation time? I’m not leaving the college, just the department.

    1. Friday*

      Congratulations!
      Yes, taking time off between new positions (especially when it’s an internal move) is totally normal and lots of people that I’ve worked with have done it. Just talk to your new manager to see if it’s okay to push back your start date.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Or since you are giving lots of notice, talk to them about whether it would make more sense to take a vacation at the end of May or the first few weeks in June, then work a few weeks to finish out your job before moving to the new position.

        Depending on how long hiring takes at your college (a looooong time if it’s anywhere like the one I worked), if you took the last week or two off in your current role and they didn’t have someone to fill it July 1 that would make it even worse to have the role effectively “empty” for 2 more weeks, as opposed to you being out for 2 weeks, then back for 2 weeks, then off.

        Unless there is a policy otherwise, you can use the vacation you’ve earned – and if it’s at a school that has a use it or lose it by June 30th policy definitely take it. I’m assuming you’ve given your notice to the department already, so ask the chair (or whoever you report to) whether they would rather you take your vacation in May, early June, or to ride out the end of your time there until June 30th. It probably also depends on when the end of classes/graduation is and whether things are dead or crazy after that as to when would be best for you to take the time off.

        And congrats!

        1. TootsNYC*

          Most of the companies I’ve worked with have a policy that you must be in the office on your last day of work. No taking vacation day for your last day. My 1yo son had a medical procedure on my last day, and I couldn’t go home to take care of him; I had to farm it out to Grandma, because I was legally required to be IN the office on my last afternoon. I think I had to be there in the morning, and go on a long lunch for the hospital visit.

          So just ask.
          It’s my experience that 90% of the people I’ve known who were changing jobs (hiring them, friends with them, friends with the person hiring them…) take at least a week off between jobs, often covering that income loss with their paid-out vacation from their old job.
          I’ve had my to-be boss say to me, “OK, so you’ll need to give 2 weeks’ notice, and then you’ll want at least a week off, so you can start in 3 weeks or 4?”

    2. ZSD*

      Congratulations on the new job! Yes, I think it’s fairly normal to take some vacation time between the two jobs, especially since you’re giving so much notice for leaving. You could make your last day at your current position June 17, take two weeks of vacation, and then start the new job July 1.
      What I’m not sure of is which department would normally pay the vacation time. I would think it would be your current job, but maybe you could talk the two departments into splitting the cost.

    3. Malissa*

      If you have accrued vacation time I would ask your current boss. It’s not an unreasonable request.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      Congratulations!

      I would say it depends on what the new department has planned for you. Perhaps you could shorten the time period to your last day (which is 8 weeks from now)? In other words, make your last day June 16th and take a couple of weeks (or whatever) of vacation time.

    5. Bethy*

      Congrats! It’s always nice to see admins move into non-admin roles–gives me hope that I can make that transition when the right things comes along.

    6. TalleySueNYC*

      I don’t know why I didn’t focus on the fact that this is the same overall employer, but different departments. And so your “seniority for vacation time” will probably be considered to be continuous, and you will be entitled to whatever vacation time you earned; it’s just a matter of finding a time to take it that works with your direct manager(s). Just ask everyone how to schedule it; they will all totally understand.
      If you haven’t qualified for weeks off, then go to whoever is in charge of the HR aspect of your switch, and ask them if it’s possible to arrange an unpaid leave and keep your seniority/employment continuity going.

      Everyone will completely understand it.

  9. Malissa*

    So I started an application with an online system that serves academia. I bailed out about the time it wanted extremely detail information about my references before uploading my resume. I didn’t think anything else about it. Then the system sent me an email to get my master’s or PHD online through their affiliated schools. Seriously, now signing up for an application system is now grounds to send me unrelated emails? Nothing like confirming my suspicions that information handed over wasn’t going to be handled with discretion.

    1. Vanishing Girl*

      I once applied for a job with a government museum and they sent me a funding plea (with free address labels) in a couple months. I had the same feeling you did: thanks a lot: they’re supposed to be the ones giving me money in exchange for work.

    2. Ama*

      Ugh, that is terrible mailing list practices. Although it is possible that their system is set up to allow the addition of emails to a particular mailing list without providing access to the rest of the information.

      I once provided a reference to a student worker I’d supervised when they were up for an internship at a nonprofit. I had to exchange a few emails with the hiring manager to get the call set up, and then I discovered they added me to their email list. It really annoyed me.

      1. Anony-moose*

        Ugh, nope. I work at a nonprofit and I see this all the time. (It may happen in the for profit world as well, but I can only speak to the nfp world). It’s like no one actually thinks through whether or not someone wants to get an email…

        I am still getting emails from a company I used to work for. When I left the ED treated me REALLY badly and went so far as to try to undermine me in my new position. So why am I getting solicitations?

    3. Agreed*

      Omg, yes, this. Nothing like being rejected with no contact whatsoever, and then being asked to donate money you don’t have. *Eyeroll*

  10. Rat Racer*

    I am a terrible note-taker. I think the problem is partly medium (computer vs. by hand) and partly that my thinking isn’t very linnear. My listening, thinking and processing get in the way of writing. I can capture my own To Do list, but struggle to record conversations. In grad school, I used to record lectures and then re-listen and edit my notes, a time luxury I no longer have.

    Is there anyone out there who used to be a bad note-taker who developed a system that has worked for you? What did you do?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Use Microsoft One Note. Great for raw notes, and it’s really easy to use. You can import documents, slides, PDFs, and type notes directly alongside for easy reference.

      It has lots of nifty features. You can quickly tag items with a To Do or Question checkbox as you go.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Yes – I’ve tried using OneNote – it gets tricky if I’m sharing my screen or trying to present something at the same time. But I’m thinking of going back and trying it again…

        Do you find that there are different note-taking styles that you apply depending on the meeting? Do you look for different things to capture if you’re in a large group conversation where you’re a fly on the wall vs. a 1:1 with your boss, vs. a problem-solving meeting with lots of back and forth conversation?

        1. Mockingjay*

          The note taker can’t be the presenter. I would suggest asking someone else to drive the slide show while you concentrate on note taking.

          Meeting prep helps me the most – knowing the agenda or subject material in advance allows me to cue into important items or key words.

          My note-taking skills are actually a defense mechanism. I don’t have an auditory memory. I cannot remember conversations 5 minutes after. (If I read something, I have it down forever.) While still a schoolchild, I had to train myself to take copious notes to compensate for this lack. Basically I write as fast as I can so I don’t forget! I find it ironic that my most stressful weakness seems to be a career asset.

          1. Meg Murry*

            I agree – you can’t be the presenter or an active participant and take thorough notes on the conversation – that just isn’t going to work. The only way it can work is if it’s a very small group, in which you can say often “ok, wait a moment while I take this all down” several times. But it’s far more effective to enlist a third party to be the official note taker/minute taker if there needs to be documentation after the meeting beyond “these are the action items to have accomplished by this date”

            If you absolutely have to take notes when you are the presenter, print out the presentation and take notes on that, but build lots of time into the meeting for you to pause and take notes.

    2. Beezus*

      I record, listen, and write notes from the recording. I have a hard time participating in a conversation while also taking notes.

      If we’re using a whiteboard, I take a photo of the whiteboard with my phone.

      I have one very, very structured meeting with a clear preset agenda, where a series of people report their numbers for the day. I know what items everyone is going to report on, so I have a notes cheat sheet for that meeting, with spaces for each item, so I can just jot down the numbers themselves as we go along.

    3. Nanc*

      A digital recorder and time. As you listen and take basic notes, when something really important is discussed, note the time in the margin of your notepad or in your word doc and just go back and listen to that part of the recording. It takes practice but it works well for me.

    4. Observer*

      Another very easy to use note-taker is EverNote. It handles handwritten notes (which you can scan or create on a tablet with a stylus). Also, some tablets (the Samsung ones, that I know of) have decent handwriting recognition. So, if you prefer to hand write, you can do it, and still have the advantage of using a computer.

    5. The IT Manager*

      I think you can take good notes (as the meeting minute taker) or you can participate. I don’t think you can do both. Are you trying to capture the whole meeting or just certain relevant points for your own use?

      If you’re a participant in the discussion, I think the best bet is to write up your notes (expand on your quick notes) as soon as the meeting is over.

    6. Brett*

      I still revert to paper and the Cornell Method. It is especially great for non-linear thinkers.

    7. Development professional*

      This might sound weird, but see if you can discipline yourself NOT to do any processing of the information you’re hearing until after the meeting (again, this only works if you’re not also participating in the discussion) and take notes initially almost like a dialogue in a play. Don said this. Peggy said this. Joan said this. Roger said this. Word for word quotes won’t be possible unless you know shorthand or something, but get the gist. Then afterwards, go back and look at those notes and process the information, reorganizing into bullet points that make actual sense. This has worked for me in the past, especially in meetings where there were lots of different people speaking.

      1. Rat Racer*

        That sounds like a good strategy – – but one that would take a tremendous amount of discipline. And that’s what I’m realizing by reading the responses above: taking good notes requires discipline. Thinking I should start practicing in meetings where I’m just there to learn and absorb. The trickier ones are the meetings where I’m actively participating, handing out to-dos and follow-ups to myself and others, trying to organize my own thoughts and ask the right questions… My hat is off to anyone who can do all those things and take effective notes. My hat also goes off to people who are disciplined enough to take notes for the duration of a 4-hour meeting and then go back and read them…

        1. afiendishthingy*

          I’m a bad note-taker too, and for my job I have to write notes to bill for anything, which means a lot of taking notes in meetings where I am a very active participant. Frequently I just have to do the note after the fact (obviously as soon as possible is best). However, I do use handwritten notes with a template in many cases, where I can circle which items/cases/programs were discussed, and mark which were modified, who was present, to do’s, etc. My notes still aren’t great but this makes them a little more organized.

    8. TalleySueNYC*

      What is your -purpose- in taking the notes? Because I think that greatly affects what approach you take.
      -are you taking minutes? Then don’t really count on participating; and remember as well: minutes are not supposed to include the discussion–only the exact wording of the motion (so OK to make people slow down and dictate to you), who made it, who seconded, what the final vote was.

      -are you learning? Then don’t take notes; listen actively. I’ve heard that for college students, it’s probably better to not try to take notes, but to just listen and absorb, and think. Your approach of recording and re-listening later (and making any “study aid” notes) is probably smart. I mostly listen and only write down the four or five words of something that strikes me as a good thing to refer to later.

      -are you trying to remember the few specifics that apply to you? Then just write those few things down.

      did you know that juries aren’t -allowed- to take notes? They’re supposed to be focusing all their attention on the information being presented. So they don’t miss something while they’re writing, and so that all their attention is on what is being said and shown.

      There’s someone else whose only job is to take notes, and if the jurors want clarification, etc., they ask for sections to be reread. That’s what your recording could be.

      The next question would be, are you allowed to record the material, using your smartphone (if you have one)?

  11. Ali*

    I had two interviews in New York City this week, both for jobs at nonprofits. The first interview went well, and it’s an organization I’d love to work for, but I was a little worried about it because they are looking for someone who is a leader and motivator. I’m not entirely sure if that describes me! But I think otherwise there’s a good match there, and I even used the “magic question,” to which the hiring manager said, “Wow that’s a great question, but a tough one!” He did say, though, that the job is good for a first-time manager, so maybe there’s hope. I’ll know next week if I move to the next round.

    I went to a staffing agency about the second job, and they’re trying to fill a communications job at a different nonprofit. I got a copy of the job description and I’m not sure I’m going to be a great match, but I showed my interest in an interview with the organization and sent a different version of my resume to better reflect my experience. I don’t know when I’ll hear back from the recruiter, who was pretty nice and laid back, so if I don’t get this gig, I’d want to work with him down the road.

    I am back home now and have ANOTHER interview today at a credit union. While going to NYC is still my first choice, if those options don’t work out and the credit union hires me, it’ll still give me stability and a good place to work. Plus, it’s considered a nonprofit, so I would be excited for that too.

    It’s kind of funny, though, to have a flurry of interviews now that I’m out of work. I didn’t have this when I was employed!

    4. Mary inTexas*

      What’s the “magic question?” I’m a regular reader of AAM, but I must’ve missed this. Thanks!

  12. SevenSixOne*

    TWO-PART QUESTION!

    1. What bad habits, faulty assumptions, and unrealistic expectations did your first job(s) give you about How Work Works? What were the professional consequences? How did you finally un-learn them?

    2. Do you think managers have an obligation to educate their young/inexperienced employees (especially employees in low-skill, low-paying “McJobs”) about How Work Works?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      1) My first “real job” firmly disabused me of notions like “work has a set beginning and end time” (my parents were both government employees who had very set hours, so that’s what I grew up thinking was universal) and “it’s enough to come up with some answers, you don’t need to thoroughly search to ensure you didn’t miss anything.”

      2) An obligation? No. A kindness? Yes, and one that may pay off if the employee seems like she’s simply clueless and would do the right thing if she knew what it was.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      1) Working hard will get you somewhere. Often schmoozing the right people is far more effective.

      2) I don’t think there’s an obligation there, but it’s the right thing to do. I’ve worked with a whole lot of high school kids in my day and I always try to help them be realistic about things. However, I’d never flat out tell them what I said for #1.

    3. some1*

      My first job was at City govt dept and every employee in my dept, save the head, had the opportunity to join the Union for their job title. For those who are unfamiliar with Unions, you have a union steward or rep at your work and a business rep at the union office that you can go to for basically anything (“How do I get a raise?”, “Can my manager make me stay until 5:00 on the dot when the bus leaves at 5:05 and I come in 10 minutes early?”) You never really went to HR for anything after hire unless you were applying for a transfer.

      So it was a shock to enter the private, non-union sector and see how some coworkers seemed to think HR was there as their personal advocate or to discipline a coworker for minor disagreements.

    4. AVP*

      My first jobs out of college were all freelance and contract positions which were terribly managed, and I had no idea that you could have a manager who was a good person, who might care about employees and not just try to get everyone out of people that they could and then drop them, and might care about the long-term personnel management. So, that was a really nice surprise at my first non-contract position.

      One terrible thing that I learned both from my first contracts and from my friends’ first jobs is that you’re supposed to go out drinking with colleagues all the time, and that people are all dating and hooking up with each other, sometimes in very inappropriate circumstances. I was also REALLY happy to learn that that isn’t the case with most jobs.

      I definitely think that one of the big tasks when you have entry level or low skill employees is to teach them how things should work, in a good, well-managed environment. It helps them, it builds loyalty, and it also means you have a more professional staff – win win win.

    5. Karowen*

      1) I’m still at my first job, and I have a horrible habit of cursing and pulling “that’s what she said” /”so’s your face” jokes. It’s…bad, to say the least. I’m trying so hard to break myself of it, but no one at the office cares and they have (cringe) come to expect it of me so it’s just all sorts of weird. It didn’t occur to me until well after it should have that maybe, just maybe, this type of behavior was inappropriate for the office.

      2) Like AdAgencyChick said, no obligation but definitely a kindness. I would’ve loved for my manager to pull me aside at some point and say “look, this may be okay for here but you’ve got to know it’s generally inappropriate.”

    6. YandO*

      1. My first job set up unrealistic expectations for the following things:
      a- good benefits
      b- awesome and reasonable boss
      c- being treated like an adult
      d- company that wants to keep employees happy through salary, perks, benefits, time off, etc.

      2. YES

      1. ali*

        this is exactly what my first job did too. Nothing after has ever been even close to that.

    7. matcha123*

      My first job was delivering newspapers, so I’m going to let that slide and go on to my second job working part-time at a library. What I learned my final three or four years there was that hard work is not rewarded, but brown-nosing is; years of praise for a job well-done can be tossed aside on a whim based on the feelings of the supervisor that day; you shouldn’t go to your supervisor with questions or work-related issues because it will be used against you somehow; don’t go to the restroom. Consequences were being fired for frivolous reasons or denied promotions for the same. It’s taken me years to try to ease out of that. It didn’t help that I worked there close to a decade…

      I think managers have an obligation to help ease new employees into their office and teach them the ropes. It makes everything go a lot smoother when everyone is on the same page. Even if I don’t like certain rules, if i know what they are from the get-go, I can know what to do and what not to do. If I choose to ignore the advice given to me, that’s my bad. But if someone with more experience decides not to give me that advice and then blames me for not knowing something, that’s their bad.

    8. Koko*

      1) “Venting and having bitch sessions with coworkers can help you manage a stressful work environment.” Eventually learned the opposite is more often true and when a work situation is f’d up you either need to keep your head down or get out.

    9. Alex*

      1. My first job set hugely unreasonable expectations about how much money I’d make in the future. Back in the earlier days of cell phones, the retail reps made TONS of money. In the late 90’s, early 00’s, 19 year old kids were making $80k+ just selling phones in a retail store. I joined in 20014-ish and was making $55-$60k as a teenager with no bills or expenses, and I literally blew ALL OF IT. I kick myself for it now. The realization that if I wanted to get out of sales at all, I’d be taking a $30k paycut to start out somewhere else, and now I had bills.. that was a tough, rude awakening.

      2. Kind of. I feel like this is part of good management. However, in a McJob type situation, management is probably a lot more transactional with very limited time for development, so maybe not.

    10. BRR*

      1) My first job had way too much work to do for the size of the department. If something was long-term it meant that it wasn’t going to get done. At my current (2nd) job, long-term means in a couple of weeks at most.

      2) By McJobs I think of minimum wage jobs where it’s completely different. For entry-level office jobs I think there’s some obligation. Part of being a manager is managing more than just the quality of work.

    11. MaryMary*

      1. My early “McJobs” and even my college internship didn’t teach me to set boundaries around how much I socialize with coworkers outside of work, and what weekend stories are appropriate to tell in Monday morning. When you work in retail and everyone is hungover on Sunday morning, including the managers, it doesn’t seem weird to complain about your own hangover and talk about how you were out until 4am. You may have even been out until 4 with your coworkers. When you have a professional office job, people are less impressed with your wild weekend stories. Getting wasted on the weekend with your coworkers and manager (or your direct reports) is going to lead to all sorts of ugly office gossip.

      2. I do think managers have a responsibility to teach young people proper workplace expectations. My office has an arrangement with a local parochial high school where students work here one day a week in exchange for free tuition. There are complaints around the office about the quality of some of the students’ work (they do things like deliver our mail and make copies) and occasionally their attire, but no one will address it with the student directly. It drives me bonkers, because we’re not setting them up for success if they thing they can half-ass a boring assignment, or ignore the dress code when they feel like it.

    12. SevenSixOne*

      I thought I’d always be a slave to my work schedule because scheduling was a nightmare at my first three jobs. No one had a set schedule, it was decided (often at the last possible second) based on “business needs”, and employees were expected to find someone to cover their shift if they wanted to take a day off.

      When I got my current job and found out my schedule would be the same days and times every week, I was thrilled. You mean I can schedule things weeks in advance, secure in the knowledge that I’ll have Tuesday off because I always have Tuesday off? And there’s enough staffing that it’s not a major crisis if one person (or two or five) isn’t at work? WOW!!!

      I still don’t fully grasp the idea that in some jobs you can often come and go as you please and no one really cares as long as the work gets done. How do you even DO that??!?!

      I do think managers have an obligation to guide their employees, but it can be hard to tell the difference between “this is how I like to run things”, “this is a norm specific to this workplace or industry”, and “this is a generally accepted standard of professionalism”, especially if it’s the first time an employee has that conversation. I think McManagers come with their own challenges, too. The McManagers I’ve had were often not much older or experienced than their teenage employees, or they had a ton of experience as a McManager but little or no experience with any other type of job, so their guidance wasn’t always useful.

    13. "The same thing you are."*

      My first job disabused me of the notion that The Boss had to be a smart guy. (Elsewhere on AAM I detailed how he came to 16yo me for assistance in determining the size of the business property in square feet. He knew it was rectangle 200ft by 75ft – he just needed to figure out the area).

    14. Kai*

      For #1, I grew up with two parents who both had fulfilling jobs with considerable flexibility (college professor and massage therapist, respectively). It was kind of a shock to me to realize that most people have limited time they can take off (winter and summer breaks aren’t really a thing outside of academia, are they?!). I also didn’t fully respect how restrictive 40 hours a week at a desk can be, compared to the flexibility my parents seemed to have.

      1. Manders*

        Ditto! My parents were professors, and while I knew that I wouldn’t get summer break in an office job, the first year I was scheduled to work Christmas Eve + Boxing Day was a big surprised.

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        Same here. Dad was a professor, Mom was music director for a church. They both worked a lot, but had a lot of flexibility about where and when (i.e Mom could practice on the piano at home, Dad had a home office, etc.) I still really miss my academic schedule.

    15. GOG11*

      I am on my third job post-college, so I’m not sure I am far enough along yet.

      Regarding 2, though, I am currently in my first management role (kind of…I manage two student assistants and I feel odd thinking of myself as managing people, even though that is what I’m doing). I don’t know that managers necessarily have an obligation to educate younger workers, but I know I feel obligated to do so. I work at a University, so this may have something to do with it, but there are others in my role with assistants who don’t feel that way at all.

      I do think it can be in the best interests of managers to work with employees who have difficulty adjusting or learning How Work Works. Part of management is coaching employees on how to succeed or excel in the role, which isn’t just limited to technical or process-oriented skills. One could argue that managers could just hire more experienced workers to get around that, but I don’t think that’s always possible/practical.

    16. Tris Prior*

      My first job was as a newspaper reporter in the 90s. As a reporter, I was expected to be fair, balanced, and truthful even if it made some people angry. When I moved on to a corporate communications job, I had a really hard time getting my head around things like pleasing clients and not telling the unvarnished truth all the time because it might piss someone off. “Spin” was completely foreign to me, as were most kinds of office politics. That was rough.

    17. Anx*

      1. I think what shocked me the most was how hard it was to find a job on your own. I worked pretty regularly when I was young. As a child I worked with my family (nothing exploitative), walked into a restaurant and got a job on the spot, and then easily got summer the summer jobs I applied for in college. In college, I found work readily (probably at first because I was FWS, then because I held a lot of student leadership roles). Then I graduated and my life has become year after year of rejection and underemployment. It was very jarring to go from working several jobs that I didn’t struggle to find to learning just hard it is go work when you’re not a student. In fact, I went back to school in part just to become a student again; people are much more inclined to hire students than the unemployed.

      2. I think they have an obligation to let their employees know what is expected of them regardless of age or experience. An accurate employee manual does a lot to assuage the anxiety of trying to figure out what the expectations are. Also, I think it’s important to let employees know if they are not doing something right before letting it fester.

    18. Clever Name*

      My first jobs were hourly and at the types of places where everyone took a 15 minute break and a half hour lunch at set intervals. At my first job, I was shocked when my coworker just plowed through the time when I would have normally gone on breaks in prior jobs. Now I forget that it’s ok to surf the web for 5 mins when I hit the mid afternoon slump

    19. Not So NewReader*

      1) I really did not develop any set assumptions or expectations. My parents did not talk much about the work world and I found my first job very confusing- no means yes and yes means no. You’re doing fine means you are screwing up. I thought to myself- I. Can’t. Do. This. I think what saved my butt, is that I love to be busy. So at subsequent jobs I just automatically asked the boss for more work. I started learning things and that helped me get launched.

      2) I think we all have some level of obligation to help someone enter the work world. Reality is though that this does not always happen. I have worked a few places where it was a game to laugh at the struggling new hire. Or worse yet, validation of “how terrible this place is.” (With the former, someone usually breaks down and decides to help. With the latter, for whatever reason, people tend not to help the new hire.) I think that treating people new to the work world like this really sends the wrong message that can take years to undo. And it does not go well with established workers, either.

  13. Cruciatus*

    I get back to my desk and check my phone; there’s a missed call from an unknown number. “Hooray!”, I think, “that company I applied to is finally getting in touch with me!” I Google the number and find…it’s a spammer. Gahhh! Oh, the highs and lows of the job search. Having one of those weeks (months, really) where I feel like I will never escape my current employer (which sucks, because things are really going south around here). (/end vent session)

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Solidarity. Things are in a rapid decline here and I can’t get out no matter how hard I try!

    2. Allison*

      I’ve gotten two calls from spammers this week, both from Florida. Unless I’m job searching, I let it ring and Google the number, nine times out of ten it’s either a spammer or someone from CVS calling to tell me I need to refill this or that prescription soon.

    3. cuppa*

      I thought I was getting a call for an interview I really wanted the other day, but it was just my dentist reminding me of my upcoming appointment. Won’t forget that number again. :(

      1. Cruciatus*

        Unfortunately I just received the rejection email. Argh! But thank you, I will definitely hang in there. Will have to do a hard core job search over the weekend which will eventually start in just 30 more minutes… I think I can, I think I can…

  14. Joss*

    How do you cope with a coworker who wants to mother you?

    I’ve been at my current workplace for almost two years — starting in a front desk position and moving up to a program assistant position. I’m in my mid-twenties, but I look quite a bit younger and fairly regularly run into the problem of people assuming I’m less experienced and capable than I am. This coworker, though. She’s an older woman with a deep investment in a very large family and she doesn’t seem to be able or willing to turn off the mothering bit of her personality with her coworkers.

    It’s nothing she does that’s a big deal in and of itself, it’s more little things that add up to her treating me like I’m one of her kids and it’s driving me batty. I don’t particularly like being mothered in general, so I’m aware that I’m sensitive in this regard. She does it to a couple of the other people in our department who are my age and it’s getting to them as well. We’re at a loss of how to tell her to quit trying to take care of us.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I’d give her as little information to work with as possible. If you don’t talk to her about your personal life, she won’t have as much to mother you about.

      And when she does, redirect like crazy. “I’ve got it under control, actually. Can we talk about the XYZ project?”

    2. Rebecca*

      “Thanks for your input; I’ll think about it”. If she still presses, deflect, and nicely tell her “thanks, I have it covered”. If she still continues to nag, loop in the others (out of her earshot) and make a pact that when any of you sees the other cornered by the mothering coworker, you will call your office phone, thus creating an instant “oh, hey, gotta get that” moment.

    3. Malissa*

      Well the line I used for a mother coworker, who was getting on my case about wearing a coat, “I’ve already have a mother and she raised me well enough to make my own decisions about my personal comfort. Can we talk about the monthly numbers now?”

      1. Anie*

        Don’t use that! Hits me as super rude. I would never describe myself as “mothering,” but I’ve mentioned once or twice that it’s cold enough to need a coat if I see co-workers leaving for lunch without it. They either say, “Oh, thanks!” or “I’m gonna chance it!”

        1. Colette*

          I guess it’s a little rude, and I wouldn’t recommend that be your first attempt at getting someone to stop trying to run your life, but if polite redirects or requests to stop don’t work, I bet this would get the point across.

        2. Krys*

          Honestly I think that your comment could be considered mothering. I’m an adult. If I leave the office and find that it’s chilly enough for a jacket I can walk back and grab one. I don’t need a coworker to tell me to do that. When you make comments like that it makes it seem like you don’t trust people’s decision making abilities.

          1. Colette*

            The exception, in my mind, is that it’s ok to mention the weather if you have been outside more recently than your coworkers (e.g. just got back from an appointment).

            1. Krys*

              I guess I always assume that if people want to know about the weather that they’ll check it out for themselves or ask me if it’s chilly outside if I’ve recently been out there. But I’m sensitive to people “mothering” me when it’s not needed. I don’t have my coworkers around in the weekend and evening and I seem to do fine. Lol.

              1. Colette*

                Personally, I’m usually dressed for yesterday’s weather, so I appreciate a heads up if the weather has changed.

                I think “It’s chillier than I thought” is fine, but “It’s chilly, so don’t forget your jacket” is not – one is informational and the other is interfering.

          2. Lily in NYC*

            I could see it rankling I guess, but I would be happy for the warning so I wouldn’t have to come all the way back upstairs to get a coat/umbrella. The temperature in our office is so crazy (either really hot or really cold) so we lose all concept of what is happening outside.

        3. Anie*

          I HATE that sounding concerned or trying to be nice is automatically “mothering.” I’m not trying to mother my co-workers. I’m putting myself in their shoes. If someone noticed me leaving without my umbrella but didn’t saying anything and KNEW it was raining, I’d be pissed! It’s called looking out for other people.

          Don’t mistake this for the person who comments to every single person who walks out the door. That’s crazy annoying. But if I’ve just been out, heck yeah I’ll mention it. Also, in my office, it takes forever to get to the bottom floor and back. No one wants to waste their time.

        4. Malissa*

          Subtle hints weren’t working and I was looking to get the relationship where it should be. The line was delivered in a most matter of fact tone with no hint of snark. But if you are trying to remind adults that they should be wearing a coat…well they’re adults and please stop.

      2. Ruffingit*

        I did that and it worked well. I worked with one woman who would do the whole “Well you know I’m a mom and I can’t help worrying…” and I finally said “I have an excellent mother, I’m not in need of another one.” Got the point across and she stopped being demeaning to me.

    4. Lo in CA*

      This happened to me all. the. time. when I started here right out of college. I would get “sweetheart” and “darling” or even “honey” from my much older, mothering boss. She would also introduce me to others as “This is Lo, a twenty something, she’s such a sweetheart” which also irked me because no one else was introduced with their age.

      I do have a baby face and the opposite of resting BF and I know I was extra sensitive about it. What started to help was that when I got a “sweetheart” I would say “Oh, boss, I prefer, Lo.” Then I’d follow that up with the project details I was working on, and always being a step or two ahead of where the boss expected me to be. This also helped a lot with the credibility piece.

      Weirdly, it also helped to start noticing that I was smiling all the time and to smile less. I’m a generally happy person, but I noticed that this was contributing to the problem. Now, I try to keep a pleasant expression on my face, but not a full fledged smile. It’s helped.

    5. Allison*

      Is this just . . . a thing that young(ish) women deal with at work? Older women talking to their younger female co-workers and/or suburdinates like they’re children? Condescending to them, calling them honey, trying to give them life advice, etc. I’ve gotten it from older women in the office, and from some comments I’ve seen here it looks like a fairly common issue.

      1. Malissa*

        It’s a thing that shouldn’t be a thing. I also think sometimes it’s a thing because the younger woman is in a higher position than the older woman and the older woman isn’t quite comfortable with it. I know it actually made me pause and think the first time I ran into some one younger than me was in a higher position.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      It depends on the person and how I feel about them, but I might try, “yes, mom” or “no, mom”.

      However, you might just need to set her straight by speaking directly, “Elma, I think that you mean well when you offer little helps. At some point I have to stand on my own two feet. And that is what I want to do. I do respect your advice but I would like us to change what we are how we handle that. I’d like to set it up so that if I need help I will ask, but I would like to work stuff through on my own first. I think that it is important for me to do this. ”

      Then when she starts explaining something for the 15th time, remind her, “Elma, you did a great job explaining this last week. I am ready to go it on my own here.”
      What I like about this is it circumvents the whole topic of mother/smothering and cuts to the chase. You don’t need a steady stream of advice, period. And this is important for her to learn.

      1. TalleySueNYC*

        I was going to suggest the “yes, Mom” approach as well. Slightly humorous, as if you find her amusing (even if it feels the tiniest bit patronizing).

        But if it’s really mostly work related i’m w/ NotSoNew Reader and the direct, “It doesn’t actually help me when you jump in to help me.”

        For me, I’d personally be adding, “In fact, it greatly distracts me from the mental steps I’m doing to get to the next steps.” Bcs it would.

  15. ZSD*

    I’m moving for a new job! In a little over a month, I’ll be switching from working in Southern California to Washington, DC.
    Has anyone else made the SoCal to DC transition (or vice versa)? What work-related cultural differences can I expect?

    1. Dawn*

      I’ve never lived in SoCal myself but I have friends that have and well… I guess you’ll be prepared for the crazy traffic if nothing else.

      As I understand it SoCal is really, seriously laid back. DC is the opposite of laid back. A large majority of people work crazy stressful hours at jobs they either marginally tolerate or actively loathe in order to either earn insane crazy amounts of money to buy shiny flashy things to prove to everyone how rich they are OR in order to climb more rungs up the federal government employee ladder and suckle the sweet teat of never ever having to worry about being laid off and having a guaranteed pension for life if they can manage to not kill themselves before they reach retirement.

      Now, that being said, not everyone is like that. There’s laid back people here too, it’s just that the overall societal vibe is that of overworked alcoholics who hate their jobs and their lives and their wives buying a bunch of flashy crap trying to impress everyone else and desperately trying to look cool or hip or with it. But that’s the biggest societal slap in the face that I had to get used to once I moved up here from NC.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I went from West Coast to DC. It’s…a change.

      Socially, know this: Always get a reservation for everything.

      Work-wise, I agree with Dawn. There’s a lot of ladder-climbing self-inflated jerk types, and there’s just straight-up power strata relationships everywhere. Oh, you only work for Congressman Underpants? I work for Senator Poopsie…that sort of thing.

      But also, like Dawn says, not everyone is like that. It just definitely does overall live up to the uptight East Coast vibe.

    3. Rat Racer*

      NorCal => DC and back. I’m afraid to draw too many stereotypes, but will say that office culture in DC is much, much more formal than in California. That goes for everything from dress code to email. And – again – my experience of n=1, there’s more of a “Live to Work” vibe in DC, as opposed to CA where you find more “Work to Live.” Tech industry in SF notwithstanding.

    4. LLC*

      That exactly what I did about 6 years ago. LA to DC and a year ago back to CA (but Northern this time). Work pace is definitely faster in DC and nobody works an 8 hour day in DC. Also, even if you don’t have a job in politics, it’s still a major factor in work relationships and is brought up often. DC is the only place I’ve ever been where I could go to a bar and c-span is on and people are actually engaged, including the “dive bars.” Also in CA I’ve had multiple casual dress jobs in DC I never found one. I found one that said casual dress environment and all it really meant was you didn’t have to wear a full suit every day, which is still a plus in DC when you’re walking to and from the metro stations in the summer humidity. I still loved living and working in DC though, but it was different. :)

    5. LPBB*

      Warning: Gross Generalizations Ahead!

      It obviously depends on what field you’re working in, but in general people in DC tend to be very Type A and, like Dawn said, work ludicrously long hours as a badge of honor. Who you know is also generally very important. Don’t be shocked at parties if people simply stop talking to you and walk away once they realize you don’t know anyone valuable to them. Again, this depends on the field you’re in and your own social circle, but it’s happened to me in a bunch of different settings. People also tend to be a little stodgy fashion wise, especially in the government. If you’re going to be working on the Hill, start stocking up on your Ann Taylor now!

      Finally, from my slightly tongue in cheek perspective as a Baltimorean, people in DC LOVE to act as though they are worldly cosmopolitans while they are really just as provincial as they accuse us of being in Bmore.

      1. the gold digger*

        Don’t be shocked at parties if people simply stop talking to you and walk away once they realize you don’t know anyone valuable to them.

        That was my observation as well. It is super easy to meet people in DC and get invited to things, but that’s because nobody knows if you might be useful. It is very shallow.

      2. Nerdling*

        I had that sort of thing happen when I interned there. I was with an agency, but I spent some time hanging out with high school friends who were interning on the Hill. I was much less interesting to their friends when they found out I wasn’t interning politically.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      I made the move from DC to northern California about a year ago. It’s a huge shift. Frankly, I’m more of a “DC Person” – very Type A, driven, impatient, live-to-work, etc. The biggest adjustment for me was that the Bay Area just seemed unbearably slow at first. People walk slow and talk slow. Service is slow. The speed limit’s even lower than anywhere else I’ve ever lived. It’s just soooooo sloooooow. It has actually been a good push to just chill out a little :) but if you’re accustomed to a slower pace, that will be something to adjust to. Just to give an example, standing on the wrong side of the escalator (and thus impeding those who walk up the escalator) is a cardinal sin in DC and literally the one thing that unites every person who uses public transportation in the city. If you are in any way impeding someone from getting somewhere quickly, prepare to get an earful about it, and prepare for this to be one of those business-drinks-small-talk topics that people LOVE to trot out.

      1. Nerdling*

        YES! Stand right, walk left, and for the love of all that is holy, don’t stop dead in your tracks as soon as you get off the escalator to figure out which way you need to go next!

      2. small firm attorney*

        Yes! Stand Right Walk Left! One of my favorite things about living in DC. It’s just not appropriate to yell that out on escalators here in the mid-west, but some days I really wish I could.

    7. Nerdling*

      I didn’t go from California to DC, but I went from the South to DC straight out of college. It really is a very different world: Lots of suits and ties, long work days, people waiting until considerably later in their lives to get married/have kids because it can be prohibitively expensive (I have friends there now paying $2-3k/month for childcare for one), hugely inflated housing market, politics being even harder to avoid, I’d mention traffic but SoCal is pretty bad from everything I’ve heard, people just being very very career-focused to an extent I haven’t really seen anywhere else I’ve lived…

      Now, that said, for me, it was easier in a lot of ways because public transit was excellent from both places I lived while I was there; it meant I didn’t have to fight Beltway traffic on a daily basis just to get to my office and back. I got a lot of reading done on the way to and from. There was a good bit of emphasis in my agency on flexible work schedules to allow people to avoid the worst of rush hour traffic. There was always something to do or see after work/on the weekends. I did a lot of walking, so I was in considerably better shape. And it was a good place to make connections – I worked then with people who are slowly but surely moving up the food chain now, and that can be helpful for getting into sweet gigs in the future. Putting in my time there early on also gave me a much greater sense of appreciation for how good I have things in my current role, as well as an understanding of how our agency works from the top down that I wouldn’t have had if I had started here instead of there.

      I would just say that you’re liable to experience some culture shock all around. That’s normal, but it will pass.

    8. Lizabeth*

      Expect everyone to NOT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IN SNOW OR RAIN. Take public transportation on those days if you can – I did. I actually moved to NYC to avoid driving as much as possible because of all the road rage flying around on the Beltway and other major roads. There’s a lot of places that aren’t really serviced by mass transit easily. And yes, people do commute in from Harper’s Ferry, WV every day. My deli gal at Safeway drove down from PA every day.

      And expect for the grocery stores, before a “storm” is expected to hit, to run out of toilet paper, batteries, bottled water, milk and bread. There may be some other ones I’m forgetting but you get the idea.

      Everything is political. Even the cherry blossoms – which usually don’t bloom at the same time as the Cherry Blossom Festival.

      The Smithsonian museums are great! You can tell the tourists from the business people pretty easily on the Mall and they disappear after Labor Day.

      If you like to play volleyball at a pretty serious level, there’s a solid community of adult rec leagues all over the DC, VA and MD areas. I could play every night at drop-in places or leagues if I wanted to.

      Humidity is a bear in the summer.

      Good luck!

      1. ZSD*

        Ha! Nobody knows how to drive in the rain here, either. And I’m actually not sure it’s ever snowed in recorded history where I currently live.

    9. ZSD*

      Thanks for all the advice, everyone! This is good information to have. Actually, this makes me worry that…things are kind of…going to suck. I hope things aren’t as bad as they’re being described here!

      1. ZSD*

        But just to be clear, I truly do appreciate your advice! What you’re saying is kind of in line with the stereotypes I had in mind, but I had convinced myself that I was worrying too much and that people wouldn’t be as career-focused as I feared.

      2. LPBB*

        In a lot of ways it really does depend on the work that you do and the social circle you build. There are chill people and there is a lot of cool stuff going on in the city. You might have to do a little extra searching to find your tribe, but they will be there!

      3. Nerdling*

        There were a lot of things I really loved about living there. We took dance lessons several times a week. The public libraries near our apartments were pretty good. The variety of restaurants was amazing. And the history you’re close to is incredible — you can visit a ton of Civil War sites, if that’s your thing. Plus, it’s not a long train ride up to New York or Boston or other locations on the East Coast. I think you can make a great deal out of living there, honestly. It just helps to go in with your eyes open about some of the negatives. :)

        1. ZSD*

          Thanks! Yes, I’ve definitely been looking forward to all the free amenities, the great public transportation, and the beautiful springtimes. I was excited to learn that the Kennedy Center has a free concert almost every evening of the year!

      4. Otter box*

        I went from WA state to DC two years ago. Overall, while I do agree with all the comments in this thread, I still find I love living here. Yes, it’s ridiculously expensive rent (although you’re coming from SoCal, so maybe it’s not as big of a jump for you). Yes, people are pushy, and this city is full of self-absorbed lawyers and political types who think the sun shines out their asses because they have so much money or know so many powerful senators. But I’ve also met a lot of people who truly love the work that they do, and I’m lucky to work in an office full of them. “What do you do?” is THE question you will be asked by any person when you first meet. Walk Left Stand Right is the law of the land except in the metro stops overflowing with tourists (like Smithsonian). Metro also is actually pretty terrible – I quit riding it and started riding the buses because it kept breaking down and making me unacceptably late to work, despite charging high fares – but at least it’s (usually) there when you need it. The free cultural experiences are amazing (I saw you mentioned the Millennium Stage concerts at the Kennedy Center – VERY good and VERY free and I think they’re every single night at 6 pm, including Thanksgiving and Christmas). It can feel big if you want a big city or small if you want a smaller city. I don’t know if I want to stay here forever, but for the meantime, it’s been a great experience.

      5. Snargulfuss*

        I LOVED my years living in DC! Honestly, if the cost of housing in the area were even close to reasonable I would move back and settle there permanently. Yes, lots of people are career obsessed – some of them are power-hungry jerks, but lots of them are just really passionate about what they do, and it can be really fun to meet people and learn about all sorts of fascinating things that people do. Meetup.com groups are a great way to get beyond the happy hour bragfast type of socializing. There are also lots of sports leagues throughout the city.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      How old are you? That’ll make a difference in what you experience, to a certain extent. But hordes of men in khaki pants and blue button-downs will be everywhere you go.

      2. ZSD*

        I’m wondering if you’re saying that things will be less rat-racy than they would if I were in my 20s. Is that the case?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think how rat-racy it is depends more on what field you’re in and less on age. Politics = very, very schmoozy. But there are plenty of people doing plenty of jobs here that aren’t political. But it’s true that in general people here (regardless of field) tend to be more career-focused than in many other places.

          I was thinking about age more in regard to the social scene. If you want to be super social here, it’s very easy to do it — and even moreso in your 20s; there’s an aggressive social scene. 30s, people mellow out. I’m sure that’s true everywhere, but there’s a particular D.C. flavor to what it looks like here — there’s a kind of schmoozy, let’s-know-as-many-people-as-possible, not at all mellow feel to 20something socializing here, at least in my experience.

    11. Super Anon Today!*

      Can I say that these responses remind me how glad I am to live in California?

      1. Charlotte*

        I went from AZ to DC to Southern California where I am now. I agree with most of the other generalizations already mentioned. I lived in DC (Georgetown & Friendship Heights) and loved it, working near metro and bus stops. But it really depends on what type of job you’re getting and where you end up living. I worked for a small law firm first, business casual, and then at a non-profit where I wore jeans every day and my boss wore flip flops all the time. I had a lot of friends DC in political jobs (yes, they talk politics a lot) and non political jobs, but a vast majority were in some job related to government, whether contract work or directly. I had a lot of international friends, which is a great advantage in DC–lots of people coming and going to the city for work in embassies, think tanks, and studies from all over the world. People spot politicians and government administrators when eating out, not Hollywood celebrities. DC is a fun city; but like any kind of move to a new city, it takes time to meet people you want to spend time with and time to get familiar with the parts of the city that you will love.

    12. Stephanie*

      I moved from my college in Texas to DC and then again from the Southwest (about six hours east of you) to DC.

      I agree with everyone that it’s definitely more buttoned-up than SoCal. I had two casual dress jobs and I was an exception (and now barely own any business casual as a result). That being said, not everyone’s a Type A person striving to become the next White House press secretary (just like not everyone in SoCal is trying to break into the entertainment industry). I wasn’t! The vast majority of my friend group wasn’t. You can definitely avoid that, especially if you’re not working on or near the Hill. It was definitely more accepted to talk about work during non-work hours. People have some very specific, wonky jobs.

      There definitely is a strong happy hour and professional drinking culture. I found people started work later there due to traffic and relying on transit. Out in Phoenix, a lot of people start between 6-7 am (or even earlier). In DC, any meeting before 10 am wasn’t really happening.

      On a more social level, I found it (sort of) easy to meet people there. The city’s somewhat transient, so there are lots of people moving in and out looking to meet others.

      1. ZSD*

        Thanks, Stephanie. This is all helpful info. (Regarding working later: I was very surprised when they told me the office hours at my new gig would be 9-5:30. I thought, “There are actually people who don’t start work until 9?”)

  16. Anon Accountant*

    This week our trouble-making receptionist overheard me on a call with our local community college. They called me to tell me the May class wasn’t open but to ask if the July session was okay to register me for. I’m registering to take a Photoshop class and web design for our church. She raced back to tell the managing partner that she overheard me on the phone “registering for classes at some college”.

    She often takes a piece of information and conveniently leaves out the rest of it that would completely change the meaning of what is happening. Now I’m certain they think I’m planning to quit to return to school. And I mean with almost 95% certainty because she often puts a spin on things and embellishes things. How do I proceed?

    1. Relly*

      Just tell them you’re taking classes outside of business hours? Tons of community colleges offer evening/weekend classes for people who work fulltime.

      1. Dawn*

        Yeah if you think it’s a concern or whatever just email the managing partner and say “Hey I think that Jane might have misunderstood a conversation I had earlier- I’m registering for a nighttime photoshop class as continuing ed since my hobby is photography.”

        Also dang that lady sounds like an insecure basket case to work with… sorry you have to deal with that!

        1. KJR*

          I would be so tempted to use the word “eavesdropping” along with misunderstood. Sooo tempted.

    2. TheExchequer*

      Perhaps something like, “I’m concerned Penrose may have misheard a conversation I had – I’m taking a single class. I’m not planning on returning to school.”

      Then, take all calls out of earshot and be as civil as possible to Penrose.

    3. Malissa*

      Say nothing unless asked. Taking classes while being an accountant is normal. Chances are if the partner is concerned they’ll ask you directly. Just because others are making drama doesn’t mean you have to participate.

    4. Elysian*

      How do you know she told them? Did you actually hear her saying it? Did someone bring this to you? Or do you just assume based on what you know of her? How you know she did this would impact how you should respond.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        I overheard her telling him. She has a naturally loud voice and even when she tries to speak softly her voice isn’t quiet. Plus our layout isn’t the best for acoustics and conversations. She wanted him to “be aware of this”.

        2. Elysian*

          Yeah, then I would approach you manager: “I overheard Receptionist telling you about my coursework the other day. I didn’t mean to listen in, but she was quite loud about it. I just wanted to clarify for you that I’m taking night/weekend classes to further my photography hobby. I didn’t want you getting the impression that I was going to enroll in school full time.” and then talk to Receptionist about why she felt it was necessary to share that information. “I heard you tell my manager about my call, why did you feel it was important that he be aware of this? In the future, I would rather you not share my personal conversations with my manager.”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This. Even if you just do the part about talking to the boss that should handle things.

            I don’t know…. she could be a lot of fun, if you can get a friend to play along with you. **Call your friend up and order 3 elephants, 2 zebras and a giraffe. Tell your friend that you want them shipped, don’t say where. Then settle back and watch her meltdown begin. Or call your friend and order 27 pizzas and 15 cokes.

            ** Don’t actually do this. But have fun thinking about all the phone calls you could make that would launch her into orbit.

            Seriously, if you do talk to her let her know that she is getting one side of the conversation and is not the same as actually understanding the conversation.

            1. Ruffingit*

              HA! Yeah, that would be awesome. I’d go a step further and say “One of the partners here has herpes?? OMG, who?” Then act like someone is telling you the name and say No way, I never would have guessed…then hang up.

              FTR, I am not saying anyone should ever do this. Just that it’s too funny to think about receptionist’s head exploding over that kind of conversation.

        3. peanut butter kisses*

          I think the odds are quite high in your favor that the guys just rolls his eyes each time she comes in with her own version of eye witness news.

          1. LCL*

            Yeah, that’s what I do with our resident tattletales. And depending on your workplace, this may be the time to start having fun with some fake stories. Invent a new persona! Going on tour with your band! Running a liquor smuggling operation! Buying the company out! The more outlandish the better.

          2. Anonymous Educator*

            Yeah, even though what she’s doing is annoying, I’d like to think people know her and when not to take her seriously (i.e., this would be one of those cases).

    5. Super Anon Today!*

      I’d start having fake phone calls with all sorts of out-there types, conveniently when she’s nearby of course — elephant trainers, skydiving instructors, etc. “Hey there Percival, thanks for calling me back! I’d love to hear more about when I can start my cornhusking internship…”

    6. Artemesia*

      I would have walked right in to the managing partner right then and told him that busy body receptionist got it wrong again — that you are taking an evening class in graphic design to assist your work with your church publications — and not planning to return to college. And I might ask him what you could do to discourage this sort of promulgation of half truths by this person.

      But then being blunt and a straight shooter served me very well in my career; don’t know if it would in your environment.

  17. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

    Can I just vent really quickly about something? Truly, I don’t get offended or enraged by much. Really. I’m not just saying that like a reality show “star” who says, “I hate drama,” but who obviously thrives on it. I get slightly peeved or bothered from time to time, but enraged, no. However, a current situation I’m dealing with at work is causing my blood to boil.

    I’m pregnant and planning on going on maternity leave in the next few weeks. According to my company’s policies, the company is required to have a nursing room in the same building as a mother if she plans to nurse when she comes back from leave. The building I work at didn’t have one, so I talked with my boss several months ago. He was very supportive and started putting into action plans of turning an unused office (currently being used as a storage room) into a nursing room. It’s right next to my cube, and I am very grateful. My last employer was not supportive at all, and I had to figure it all out on my own when I had my first child.

    Well our division is short on office space and people regularly are asking what the plans are for the office because they would like to use it. I hear all of these conversations because it is right by my desk. When our admin answers, she answers so awkwardly with sometimes weird things like, “It’s going to be a, um, quiet room,” or “It’s, um, going to, um, be, um, a nursing room.” Well of course people ask further questions, especially when she says things like “quiet room.” What the hell is a quiet room!? Why can’t she just say, “It’s going to be a nursing/lactation/booby room for Tiffany when she returns from maternity leave.” It doesn’t make me the least bit uncomfortable to admit I will pump milk from my breasts to feed my new daughter. And you know what, I don’t care if it makes someone else uncomfortable, because it shouldn’t! Nursing/pumping is not something shameful or inappropriate. For goodness sake, I’m not doing it in front of anyone! No one has to look at my boobs, nor do I want them to!

    My stance has always been if I was ever included in these conversations, I would gladly pipe in and say something to curb her unnecessarily awkward responses. But I never am, and it feels too confrontational to yell from over my cube’s walls to correct her inability to address something accurately. I’m getting to the point, however, where I don’t think I’ll be able to hold back. I will hopefully be able to respond with some tact, but, for heaven’s sake, this enrages me. You probably couldn’t tell.

    I’ve thought about talking the admin, but I’m not sure if it’s worth it because I’m afraid it will just come across as, “Look how emotional and touchy Tiffany is.” So if you want to offer advice, feel free. But really I just felt like yelling at my computer, so that I don’t yell at my co-workers.

    TL;DR: People need to stop being embarrassed by the fact that women pump milk from their breasts to feed their children.

    1. Dawn*

      It sounds more like they don’t want to embarrass you in case that’s something that you’d be embarrassed about. Why don’t you just speak directly to the admin and say “Hey, I’m OK with you telling people exactly what that room will be used for and I don’t feel awkward about talking about pumping or breast feeding, FYI.”

      2. Valar M.*

        This. I’ve met mothers on both sides – the ones that find breast feeding embarrassing and dart around the office with pumping items and hiding them behind their backs, and others who just take it matter of factly, and others who want to tell you all about their latest technique or problem with it.

        If I was dealing with an about-to-be-mom and I didn’t have anything to go on, on how she felt about the subject, I’d try to remain as vague and neutral as possible too.

        Just tell her directly and make sure you’re delivery isn’t emotional “Hey, if you want to just tell people I’ll be using that as a nursing room, that’s fine with me!”. .

    2. Sunflower*

      I would talk directly to the receptionist- calmy and nicely. I’m getting the impression she isn’t sure if you want her to tell them. Or maybe she doesn’t want to give a direct answer because she doesn’t want people hawking on her about the unused office space- do people in your office know it’s company policy? If not, I could see people being (unreasonably) up in arms over this. I would just say to her ‘Hi Jane, I’ve noticed a lot of people are asking you about what the unused office is going to be. Feel free to tell them it’s for me to nurse and if they have any questions, they can talk to me(or boss, whoever you’d rather deal with it).’

      1. Anlyn*

        I’d be concerned that if the admin is calling it a “quiet room”, then people are going to want to use it to get away from noise or to take a break, thus making it unavailable for its actual purpose.

      2. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

        Good phrasing. I’ll use that. I’ll try to even use the talking calmly and nicely too :)

        1. Connie-Lynne*

          If she *is* personally uncomfortable, or if she wants people not to try to use it as an office or as a place to get away from others, she can call it an “ADA Room.”

          We have these rooms at my office, and in addition to nursing mothers, it’s used by people with medical conditions requiring mid-day rest (like me), and by people with a need to pray at certain times of day. I know that the first two uses fall under ADA “Reasonable Accomodation” requirements, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the third was some kind of first amendment issue.

          I agree that she shouldn’t really be uncomfortable saying “it’s a lactation room,” especially if you aren’t, but there’s no reason to force her to say it if she just gets uncomfortable. Maybe she has a legit reason for being uncomfortable, like some jerkoff at a previous job wouldn’t let up on the boob jokes or something.

          1. Connie-Lynne*

            I’m gonna note that I probably would be tempted to just shout over the wall “I’M GONNA USE IT TO GET MILK OUT SO MY TITS DON’T ACHE ARE YOU COOL WITH THAT?” but I’m crabby today.

    3. Sheepla*

      I’m not really seeing what is making your blood boil here. Isn’t “It’s, um, going to, um, be, um, a nursing room” an accurate statement? The fact that you think she is embarrassed to say it doesn’t reflect on you at all and you have no idea what from her culture or background may make it uncomfortable for her to say.
      Having said that, sometimes there are things that just GET ON MY NERVES and this is a fine place to vent about them.

      1. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

        I think it’s more in her delivery. Difficult to capture via a comment section, but it usually involves lowering her voice to a whisper and adding awkward pauses. I think it just happens that this is a very sensitive subject for me, so I am acutely aware of someone making breastfeeding or pumping into something that shouldn’t be talked about in normal tone of voice.

        I’m sure she is just trying to spare herself and those she is speaking with embarrassment. But it just really bothers me that anyone is embarrassed of it at all. Sure, I’m biased and should be understanding, but I’m finding it very difficult.

        1. some1*

          Again, all of that could be because she thinks *you* are embarrassed, not because she is.

          1. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

            It’s possible. I just need to talk to her so we can get this solved.

        2. matcha123*

          As a fellow female, I feel incredibly uncomfortable thinking or talking about various body issues. And if I were her, I’d think that you wouldn’t want me loudly broadcasting your business to the office. So, I’d keep my voice down, and because it’s something I personally would not want to talk about, I’d try to get through it as quickly as possible.

          My mom breastfed me and my younger sister, and I was old enough to be there when my mom was feeding my sister and such and so on. But, to me, it seems like an incredibly private thing.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yeah, this is where I would be also. OP, I would read your lack of comment about the room as “keep it hush-hush”. My personality is such that I would just ask you your preferences, but she may not think that way.

            Currently, my boss is having situation X going on. It’s been going on a while now and it’s not possible to hide the situation. She just tells people like it is. “I have X going on. It’s been going on a while and it will go on a while longer.” When she talks this way, she has taken the whole thing out of my hands. I do not have to struggle for explanations, I do not have to wonder what she wants people to know and who she wants to know it. And she is role-modeling how she wants me to talk about X.

            It’s refreshing to work with someone who is candid like this. Makes my work day much easier.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        She may not be 100% embarrassed by the breast milk pumping… but if lots of people are asking about the office, that says to me that space around your office is in demand and they are either expecting a new conference/meeting room or a new office for a new boss — or that they are hoping they can ask for it for themselves and get out of the cube farm. She could be hedging because how do you tell someone who desperately wants their own office that it’s not going to be an office, but a Lactation Room? I mean, I’m not saying you don’t need it or deserve it or won’t use it but I can see how some people might be all “*grumble* stupid pregnant wimmen should stay at home with their kids/why does she get a cube and an office/they’re spending money on this and it won’t be occupied all the time *grumble*”

        I think the thing to do might be to have your manager bring this up at a staff meeting if you have those on a somewhat regular basis. “I’ve been hearing a lot of questions and rumours about what is going to happen to the room we’ve been using for storage… In order to remain compliant with [whatever law is for this], we are converting it to a room for the usage of nursing mothers who have returned to work and need privacy to attend to their needs (or much much better phrasing than that) If you have any questions about this, please see me about it.”

        And when you come back, you might want to bring along a little sign you can hang on the doorknob (if there isn’t a lock on it) that says “privacy” or something like that (a wedge you can jam under the door from the inside). Because you know that people are going to use it for other things when you’re not there and won’t necessarily stop that when you’re back. I can just see someone barging in because they want to use the space for a quick meeting.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          I think you should put the Land O’ Lakes butter lady with the flap that you lift to see her breasts

    4. LizB*

      Do you have a good enough relationship with your admin to mention this to her in an offhand way, and make it sound like she might be doing this for your privacy? “Hey, I’ve noticed that when people ask about that office, it sounds like you’re not sure what to say — I’m fine with it if you just say it’s going to be a nursing room for me when I return from maternity leave! I don’t have any problem with everybody knowing that’s the case. Better to have the whole division on the same page rather than leave people wondering, ya know?” If I were your admin, I’d want to make sure I was respecting your privacy, and might answer awkwardly for that reason. Even if that’s not your admin’s issue, and she’s really just embarrassed, this may give her an idea of a script to use.

    5. Hlyssande*

      We have a ‘meditation’ room in my office. It’s small and has a table and chair in it, and you can use it for sensitive personal phone calls or nursing or praying (as one of our Muslim coworkers does) and it’s saved my butt more than a few times when I needed to sit in the dark a bit during a migraine.

      Your boss may want to consider making that a permanent thing, with a sign on the door that indicates if it’s occupied or not.

      But your boss is also being a butt about it. I can understand that they might not want to blab your business everywhere, though. You might want to talk to her and tell her that you don’t mind if she tells people that you’ll be using it to pump.

      1. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

        I could suggest it, but I doubt it would fly. We are federal contractors and have to account for every hour in a time sheet using specific charge numbers. I don’t know what charge number we would use for a meditation room. When I’m pumping, I’m supposed to be working. Part of my company’s nursing policy is to provide a laptop and wi-fi so that work can continue while I pump.

        1. kozinskey*

          OK, I’ll be that person — is that legal? I thought employers were required to provide time & space for nursing mothers, and it seems to me that requiring an employee to work would violate that. Anyone know more about this than I do?

          1. TFS*

            Employers are required to provide time and space to non-exempt employees only, and they are not required to pay you for the time you spend pumping. So if you are exempt or wish to get paid for the time you’re pumping, this is pretty much the only option if it’s what your company insists upon.

            1. fposte*

              And I’m not sure if it covers federal employees, either. Though I’m never clear who technically “owns” you if you’re a federal contractor.

        2. Calacademic*

          If they’re insistent on you working while pumping, invest in some good hardware to keep your hands free. My recollection is I kept a hand free to read the internet, but needed a hand to keep the bottles stable. There are things you can buy so that isn’t true, but I wanted to mention it. (If this is old hat for you, then nevermind. And congratulations!)

        3. Nerdling*

          Ok, that’s a ridiculous policy. If you aren’t allowed to breathe, relax, and stimulate letdown, your pumping sessions are likely to be completely unproductive.

          But, since it’s required, look into a hands-free pumping bra. Preferably one that does both sides at once. It’s the one thing I wish I had gotten when I was in your shoes.

        4. Payroll Lady*

          I would definitely check the law out, I am almost positive that not only does a private area need to be provided, you, as a nursing/pumping mother have to be allowed a certain amount of time (possible unpaid) I know there have been a lot of changes regarding this situation recently, and since I do not have any actively nursing mothers, or pregnant workers at this time, I’m not totally up on that law.

        5. hermit crab*

          I’m a federal contractor too, and we have a space like that in one of our offices. Like at Hylssande’s office, it’s used for pumping or private calls or whatever, and everyone’s fine with it. I mean, if you step out to take a private call, it’s not like that’s billable either, but people still need to do things like that sometimes and it’s good to have a place for them.

    6. Susan the BA*

      It’s possible that the admin is actually worried about you – she doesn’t know how comfortable you are discussing this topic or having it known that this room is being set aside especially for you (assuming you’re the only nursing mom right now), and so she’s trying to give vague answers to avoid putting the spotlight on you. It really might not be about boob anxiety at all, just her trying (unnecessarily but thoughtfully) to protect you from nosy questions.

      Even if that’s not the case, you could pretend it is and say to her “hey, so sorry you’re being put in a position to answer all these questions! just wanted to let you know that it’s totally cool *with me* if people know that I’m using the room for nursing.”

    7. some1*

      Talk to her. Maybe she thinks *you* don’t want people to know.

      “Hey, Jane, I couldn’t help overhearing your conversation with Wakeen. I’m completely fine with you telling anyone who asks that the old storage room is being converted to a pumping room for me when I come back from mat leave.”

    8. LCL*

      And I was the jerk who kept pushing to have the blinds removed from the conference room, because I thought it was an excessive amount of privacy for a conference room that I sometimes used, and only a few people (not me) knew that room had been set up so it could be used for nursing. Since we didn’t have anyone on site who needed it (I know that can change) management was doing something good and preemptive, it just wasn’t discussed with everyone because of embarrassment, I guess.

    9. TFS*

      Does anyone else have trouble with their comments not replying to the post they want them to? Grrrr.

    10. Dr. Doll*

      Put a big sign on the room’s door? Ask the boss if he would mind sending an email to everyone so they stop wasting the admin’s time with questions about the room? Send it yourself, thanking the boss for his support (ask him first)?

      I think what you are reacting to is the admin’s flaky awkwardness and if it was some other issue that she was being this awkward over, it would still be annoying as hell to have to listen to it. The fact that it’s so personal makes it extra annoying.

    11. TFS*

      I’m going to try again to get this comment to post in reply…

      As someone still nursing my nearly three-year-old (something I just don’t mention at all at the office because people would be so damn weird about it), I totally get where you’re coming from. If it was me, I would talk to the admin and just say something like “I know people are often curious about the lactation room that’s being created, and I just wanted to let you know that I’m totally comfortable with people knowing what it’s for and that I will be using it. So if you get questions, don’t worry about making me feel uncomfortable by telling people it’s a lactation room for me.” That might put her at ease about discussing it, and could allow you an opening to suggest what she might say if she’s feeling awkward.

      And I’m really excited for you that your office is being so accommodating (even if they’re bumbling and awkward about it)! :)

      1. TheLazyB*

        Nursing fistbump. My small child is nearly 4. Cutting down now but I think he’ll still be going for a while!

        I have nursed him longer than my mum nursed 3 children. It’s kinda weird.

    12. BG*

      We’ve called that room the “Quiet Room” at my current and last company. It may that is the terminology she is familiar with.

    13. Observer*

      I’m also not sure why your blood is boiling. I’d also probably just tell her that you are ok with people knowing. “Oh, and, by the way, if people give you flack about this use of space, you can tell them it’s company policy and it’s also required by law.”

      This is actually true. Some states have stricter laws than others but basic federal workplace rules require that a company over a certain size (and one that uses more than one building qualifies!) needs to provide a space where a woman can pump uninterrupted. Link in the next post

        1. Judy*

          Although, as shown above, that is in the FLSA, so anyone who is exempt is not required to do this.

    14. Brett*

      “What the hell is a quiet room!?”
      Our accreditation require us to have a quiet room. It is a soundproofed room with nothing by two soft chairs (no lights even) for 911 operators to sit in if they have a traumatizing call. Not sure what your admin is thinking calling that a quiet room….

  18. SuperIdentifyingPost Anon*

    I’m so upset. Money was taken out of my purse within the last few days.

    I’m 90% sure it happened last night at work. And unfortunately fairly certain it was the cleaning staff….but not 100%. We’ve had other things go missing — tickets that people win that are put in their mailbox in a sealed envelope. Coffee mugs, blankets, clothes. Never money that I know of.

    They left two dollars and my canadian currency that I’ve been too lazy to convert. I had maybe 50 dollars in there, but I’m not sure because I literally never use cash except to get my nails done (guess what I doing this weekend!). My hidden emergency 20 is gone too, but honestly that could have been me being drunk at the casino promising to replenish it…but I am not convinced.

    I told my manager, froze my credit cards…but I don’t think there’s anything else I can do. I left my purse unattended for an hour after hours while in a meeting. I just feel SO violated. It was probably less than 100 dollars, but I have a wedding next week and was saving money to go out to eat with my friends, drinks, pay for the bride to get HER nails and feet done.

    What do you guys do with purses and wallets when away from your desk? My cabinets have locks but who knows where the keys are.

    1. Rebecca*

      I just leave my purse under my desk. We have a small office, and to my knowledge nothing has ever disappeared from a purse here. My coworkers are unable to make coffee, change toilet paper or paper towel rolls, or report that we’ve used the last ream of copier paper, but they are very honest.

    2. Dawn*

      Do you need your wallet while you’re working? Could you leave all your valuables in your car while at work and just take in chap-stick and phone (which will always be in your pocket)? Sucks that this is happening to you. I would definitely keep following up with your manager and talk to your co-workers because if the building staff is stealing stuff this is a major issue that needs to be addressed immediately!

      1. SuperIdentifyingPost Anon*

        Leaving it in my car is an option I guess. Sometimes my coworkers might decide to get food, so then I’d have to run out to my car to get cash if I have any or a credit card. I have two phones — work and personal and they don’t fit in my pockets. Not to mention I wear dresses fairly often.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      That SUCKS. When I started my job, I was told to keep things away or locked up because someone had gone around stealing recently. I’ve always been fine with putting my purse and cell phone in a drawer or buried under papers, but most people will lock everything up in a drawer.

      This might sound stupid, but check all your desk drawers and cabinets for the keys. I found mine lurking in the back of a random drawer when I moved in.

    4. Beezus*

      Take a look at MrLock dot com – they sell replacement keys for office furniture. You could also get replacement keys from the manufacturer most of the time. I have reason to know. It’s not terribly difficult or expensive.

      I leave my purse in an unlocked drawer. However, in the past, we had incidents of things going missing during evacuations (fire drills/severe thunderstorms where taking shelter is advised.) I take my purse with me now, if something like that happens.

    5. Anie*

      I’m so grateful I don’t deal with these types of issues! I went into a 2 hour meeting last week and when I returned to my desk (which is a cube opening up to a main walkway), I realized I’d left my wallet out right at the end of the desk near the opening. Nothing missing. I frequently get up and wander away without phone or ipad or purse. sounds irresponsible, but that’s just my office culture–no one’s going to touch it.

      BUT! I do know our night cleaning crew is untrustworthy. The floor below mine has a card reader of some kind. They got a fraud report early one morning saying someone was trying to run a bunch of cards through it at 10 the night before, so they turned off access in the machine (Similar to a bank locking an account if something comes up fishy). Obviously the office was long closed and the only people with access would have been the cleaning crew. Unfortunatly, the cleaning company did nothing and insisted it wasn’t their worker.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, one of my coworkers leaves his wallet, often stuffed with cash, out on his desk every day. I can’t imagine anyone stealing anything from it.

    6. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I would speak with your manager, HR, or the front desk staff to see if there is a way for you to get keys for your cabinets or somehow install a new lock with keys. A couple times a year, our front desk staff checks with the entire company to find out who doesn’t have keys for their desks/cabinets and makes arrangements to have replacement keys made available for those that need them. It’s worth checking into since ANYONE, maintenance staff or coworkers or visitors, could be less than honest when confronted with a purse or other valuables left out in the open.

      I’m sorry this happened to you and I hope you find a solution.

    7. Marzipan*

      If you don’t have the keys to a filing cabinet/pedestal drawer type setup, you can get new ones just from the number on the lock; you don’t need the actual key.

      1. SuperIdentifyingPost Anon*

        Hmm, it has a letter and 3 digits on the lock but the filing cabinet doesn’t seem to have a brand name or anything to identify

    8. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … in my old office, I think it was recommended that we lock our valuables in our cubical cabinets (we all should have had the keys). But I usually just left my purse on a low shelf – not very visible but not locked away.

      If I were you, I’d try to find those keys and lock my purse up in the future. I am sorry that you’ve found out that people who frequent your office are not trustworthy. That feeling sucks.

    9. Muriel Heslop*

      I have started bringing just a small crossbody into the office for keys, phone, ID. Just the basics and it’s small and easy to stash if I am away.

      1. Judy*

        Me too. I carry a small “essentials” purse most of the time, and then have a larger one I use sometimes when I’m out with the family.

        My purse has my keys, phone, ID, credit cards, money, a pen and a chapstick. It’s actually a “wristlet” that also has a removable crossbody strap.

        1. cuppa*

          I do this too due to a purse snatching near by.

          I used to put my purse in an unlocked drawer in my office. Oddly enough, the only place where I’ve dealt with personal item theft was in a corporate law firm where we dealt with a lot of confidential issues and needed card access to any of our floors. Go figure.

    10. Kyrielle*

      I just leave mine in an (unlocked) drawer – but I’m realizing how lucky I am.

      I start a new job after Memorial Day – wonder what the best approach will be there. Hmm.

    11. matcha123*

      I took that stuff with me. If I left my purse in my desk drawer, I’d take out my wallet and cell phone and take them with me to whatever room I needed to be in. The office I was at at that time had cards you had to beep to get in and out, and it was a small office, but still. Trust No One.

    12. Kelly*

      My sister worked as a server a what passed as a high end dining establishment in South Dakota for a couple years between undergrad and grad school. It was attached to a hotel/convention center. There were no secure places for the servers to put their personal possessions in the building. Even keeping them in the trunk of their cars wasn’t an ideal option because the staff parking lot wasn’t well lit and most of them worked past midnight. She got to the point where all she took with her into the building was her coat, phone, and car keys after a co-worker had cash stolen from her wallet. The co-worker suspected it was one of the hotel’s cleaning crew that stole her money. She went to her manager and bought it to their attention.

      1. Natalie*

        This happened at the restaurant I worked at – the only place for the servers and cooks to put their stuff was in a literal pile behind my chair at the cash register. We had a cook briefly who apparently spend most of him time figuring out how to steal, including realizing that he could punch in as me while I was doing dishes and then open the drawer. I was nearly fired until he got caught rifling through someone’s purse.

      2. Anx*

        What gets me about working in a restaurant is there is a usually a dress code or a uniform that isn’t warm enough to commute in, but there’s safe place to keep your coat.

    13. ali*

      I have an old-fashioned man wallet and I carry it in the back pocket of my pants all day, just like the guys do.

      Until today when I actually had to wear dress pants. Women’s dress pants don’t have pockets big enough for my wallet! Argh. So since I don’t have a purse, I put it in my laptop bag, which is in my cabinet (not locked). My keys (also usually in a pocket) are sitting out on my desk though, but I don’t forsee anyone stealing them.

      This works for me because I wear jeans every day and am one of very few women in a male-dominated tech department. None of the men thinks it’s odd at all, and the women who have noticed comment that it’s really smart.

    14. "The same thing you are."*

      I rarely carry more than $100 on my person. Call me weird or whatever, but if someone went to the trouble to steal a small amount of cash off of me – I’d mostly feel really, really sorry for them. I might be unhappy, I’d for sure report it, etc. But mostly I’d be giving thanks that I and my family are not reduced to such measures.

    15. SuperIdentifyingPost Anon*

      Good news! Facilities just came over to get my cabinet lock number to see if they have a key. If they don’t have a key, they’re ordering me one for my cabinets.

      Unfortunately I’m still out the money, but luckily everyone here seems really concerned about it!

      1. catsAreCool*

        I wonder if it would be legal or would be OK with management if you left something that looked valuable on your desk (maybe an envelope marked “petty cash” or something) that when opened would squirt out some paint or something to catch the person? Or maybe would be noisy? Maybe that would be considered inappropriate, but if only a thief would open it…

  19. TotesMaGoats*

    Waiting on the job offer call today. Hoping it comes today. I’ve done the background check and they’ve checked in with me twice. I know I’m their selected candidate because they told me they’ve sent my paperwork to HR. The wait is killing me!

    While I’m not getting a bump in salary, I got them to exceed their budgeted amount for the position. They are meeting my salary. I know this is salary is at the very top of the range for the position and above range for the institution.

    Fingers crossed!

    3. Steve G*

      Fingers crossed but it sounds like this one is pretty much in the bag. Good luck!

  20. Dang*

    So I’ve been in my new job for just over a month now. I like it and feel like it’s going well but I don’t feel like I’m doing GREAT. And I don’t see how I will down the line either, if that makes sense.
    Is this impostor syndrome? Feeling completely average and not knowing how to get to the point where I feel like I’m doing a great job? Obviously I want to succeed in this role, and things are still coming together and starting to make sense… so I should cut myself some slack, right?

    Anyone dealing with this too?

    1. Dawn*

      I’m in the exact, EXACT same boat. I think it just takes time to build a rapporteur with a new company and get to know the ins and outs of how everyone works and communicates. For me what’s helpful is to go to my manager after I finish every project and say OK let’s spend 10 minutes talking about that, how it went, what you liked and didn’t like, and anything that you would want to see differently in the future. Make it obvious that you want to succeed and go out of your way to communicate that- show your manager that you’re actively working towards success and towards getting comfortable with your new position. And yeah, cut yourself some slack! No one is going to be perfect after only a month on the job. Just make sure you’re learning, not getting complacent, and communicating as much as possible.

  21. The IT Manager*

    So a home office question as we enter summer.

    Apparently my IT equipment generates a lot of heat. I mean, know that it’s a fact and server rooms need heavy air conditioning, but I had not realized that the reason my old home office was so hot was simply the heat my laptop and monitor kicks off. But I just moved and my new home office room is just as much hotter than the rest of the house as my old home office was. I don’t want to run the AC for the whole house just to make my office comfortable because of cost and because I don’t want to freeze when I knock off work at the end of the day.

    I actually don’t mind it if the room temperature is around 78 degrees (I work in shorts and t-shirts), but by afternoon the room temperature is getting up between 80 – 82. I don’t like the fan or AC vent blowing on me cooling me down below that. Any suggestions? Has anyone bought some kind of free standing A/C or fan that works for this problem? (I am not adding a window unit to the room.)

    I don’t my equipment damaged and I don’t want to have to cool down the whole house to deal with keeping the office cool.

    1. Catherine in Canada*

      Are you in an apartment or a house? In some houses we’ve lived in, we’ve moved the office to the basement in the summer time.

    2. danr*

      If you have windows in the room, open them up a bit on the top and bottom at night to take advantage of the cooler air. You can also get a fan that fits in the window and set it to blow in at night. (holmes and bionaire are two makes). This works until the night time temps are in the high 70s (f), but by that time you’ll be on AC anyway. Also, get some general circulation fans going. A larger floor fan will move a lot of air on low. Set it blowing away from you, out the door to the rest of the house. As for equipment damage… temps around 90+ (f) with high humidity start causing problems.

      1. BRR*

        I love my window fan. You can also point it out so it’s blowing the hot air in the room out and should in theory then suck cooler air from the rest of your house into the room.

    3. Bea W*

      Get a laptop “chill pad”. It’s just a base with a couple fans in it that run off a USB port. This really helps dissipate the heat.

      The trick is to make sure there is enough air circulation around your equipment. Having a fan blow on your equipment will help dissipate the heat. If you have a laptop, using one of those “chill pads” under it helps. If you have a desktop or a server, check that the internal cooling/fans are adequate. Installing additional fans helps. Check that there is enough space around them for air movement and all vents are free of dust and pet fur. If you have pets, I recommend opening things up and cleaning out the fur. It tends to accumulate in some of the heat sinks and get all up in the fans. For a laptop, you’ll have vents in the side and possibly the bottom. Check those for fur and dust.

      1. Development professional*

        Yup, this is the answer. it’s not about the fan blowing on you. You need the fan to blow hot air away from the vents on your equipment.

    4. Phyllis*

      There are room-sized portable ac units. You can buy them by BTU size to meet your needs.

    5. AVP*

      I can’t have an AC in my bedroom because the window is a fire escape, so I got a Honeywell Tower fan and it does a pretty good job. I don’t know if it would cool down a full room, but if you directed it straight at the eq it should make a significant difference. It barely makes any noise, which I like because I find fan noise distracting generally.

    7. Observer*

      Why not a window unit? It’s generally the best bet. The free standing units generally do NOT work as well.

    8. INTP*

      If you can leave your office door open and still have enough room to concentrate, maybe have a box fan pointing *out* of the office into the hallway. It will suck the hot air out of the room without blowing it on you. Crack the windows for some fresh air to draw in if it’s cool outside.

    9. Hlyssande*

      Can you open the windows and wedge a box fan in to get some air moving? That’s what I do in my apartment that only has windows on the outside wall. If you do that, can you leave the door to the office open for air flow purposes? It doesn’t have to be blowing on you, but any air movement would be better than none.

      Alternately blackout curtains may cut down on the heat.

    10. Kyrielle*

      The free-standing ACs that have a hose that go to the window work pretty well. However, if you have an option for one that can also pour its water out the window (not sure if that’s a thing, even), I’d take it. Because emptying the water trays was always my least favorite part, and I can’t imagine that carrying them past computer equipment while trying not to slosh/spill would make it better.

    11. Dana*

      I have a freestanding unit that I actually don’t know the name or manufacturer of, but it has two hoses that you stick in the window. I have a chinchilla that has to be kept under 80 degrees but I hate air conditioning the whole house. We had it set for 66 I think all last summer and it worked like a charm. It’s loud, though.

    12. Gene*

      The cooling pads for laptops only serve to more efficiently cool the laptop, the heat load to the room is the same. We have no full-house AC, so for the three nights a year we need cooling beyond what a window fan provides, we have a portable AC unit that cools just the bedroom. Make sure you get one that vents the hot air outside, some just blow cold air out the front and hot air out the back and actually heat room more than not having it there.

    13. FatBigot*

      What kind of work are you doing? If it is just document preparation & e-mail, then a modern computer should not use a great deal of power. Could you reduce the amount of power consumed, and hence rejected to the room as heat, by turning off background processes, video effects, making sure it goes to sleep when not in use, turning down the monitor brightness etc?

      A plug top power monitor will allow you to measure the actual consumption.

  22. Holly Olly Oxen Free*

    How long after starting a new job is it appropriate to request a day off? I relocated and my husband and daughter are still living in old city. By the time they join me I’ll have been working here 2 1/2 months. I’d like to ask for the Friday and Monday surrounding the weekend of the move. Is it too early?

    1. cali_to_carolina*

      It certainly can’t hurt, especially because it’s related to relocation.

    2. Karowen*

      Yeah, I think as long as you give them an obvious out and are okay with taking it unpaid if necessary, they’ll be fine. If it were for a random trip you wanted to take it’d probably be different, but as cali said it’s to cement your life in your new location, which your new bosses probably want you to do.

    4. BRR*

      Normally there is a policy whether written or unwritten. However in this case I think it’s perfectly ok to ask.

    6. Holly Olly Oxen Free*

      Oops. Hit submit by accident.

      Ok! I think I will ask then. We do have a really liberal “unlimited” vacation policy. Between that, sick & personal days, and holidays, they encourage about 44 days off per year. I just didn’t want to take advantage of it so early on. It feels weird to ask for time off right now, but in this case it sounds like you guys think most management would be ok with it.

    7. TalleySueNYC*

      Most jobs I’ve had, the time-off threshold is specified quite clearly I’ve worked places where you have to be there a year to get vacation, and 6 months for personal days.

      But also, most jobs I’ve had, the people I work with would be OK with fielding a request, and would grant it based on the excuse, often even if it was technically against policy. Your reason, especially because it is so closely related to your job/move, would be fine.

      So I agree, ask.

  23. Gwen Soul*

    Anyone get paranoid when they leave on maternity leave? I know my workplace is awesome and really supporting as well as my direct boss. Others have come back no problem, the company just expanded benefits to give us paid leave on top of disability, so I know this is totally my own issue. I have been here six years and I just keep thinking they will realize they really don’t need me. Partly because I have all the processes smoothed out now that my job really isn’t all that busy anymore. I have gone from 50-60 hour weeks to having time to surf the internet a few hours a day most days. Anything I can do to not freak out?

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Sounds like impostor syndrome. YOU arranged/organized everything for a smooth transition with enough time to have everything in place already even if you (FSM forbid) deliver a bit early, so I bet your manager(s) appreciate your effort, rather than seeing you as slacking off.

    3. TalleySueNYC*

      Yeah, if you’ve gotten so smooth, will those processes run without you? I bet not. So they’ll notice when you’re gone.

  24. AFT*

    Any thoughts on seasonality of the job market? I’ve been looking around and not seeing many jobs posted in comparison to around 6 months ago. Could also be a symptom of being in Minneapolis where our job market was flooded with 1,700 awesome Target employees recently, but I’m just curious if there is a general seasonality to the job market.

    1. Sunflower*

      Depends on the industry. I think a lot of companies slow down during the summer. People take off more, business slows down a little bit so that could be why you aren’t seeing a lot being posted right now. It also depends on a company’s fiscal year and when their budgets come out.

    2. Ali*

      I am wondering the same thing after having three interviews scheduled this week. One of the places I interviewed with mentioned their fiscal year starting July 1, so I think maybe that’s part of it, as well as employers wanting to fill spots before too many vacations happen.

    3. TheExchequer*

      There definitely is. Obviously, there are a lot more jobs around the holiday season. And there tends to be more jobs around summer too (new grads, vacations, etc). And it can vary by sector. Tax/Accounting jobs are high in January and mid-March through April.

    4. TCO*

      I know a lot of those Target employees got hired elsewhere pretty quickly (and Target even rehired some of them) but it’s probably contributing to a shortage for certain skill sets. The economy is healthy here–you’ll find a job eventually! Seasonal ebbs and flows probably vary by sector, but Minnesotans try to cram so much fun/vacation into the short summer that I can imagine that some would not place a priority on hiring and training new employees in June.

    5. Sunshine Brite*

      I would also say depends on the industry. I feel like social work always ebbs and flows with more around December and May/June when graduation happens and when people up and change. Also, hello from another Minneapolis AAMer

    6. Jake*

      I work construction and seasonality is huge.

      Winter- only replace office folks

      Spring-good companies stock up like crazy,

      Summer-good companies hire field replacements as necessary, bad companies panic and realize they should have hired in the spring and make bad hires out of desperation.

      Fall- new grads and office folks get hired so they’ll be trained and ready for the next summer.

  25. Retail Lifer*

    Aside from outside sales and insurance, is there any other kind of job that you’d consider someone with only retail management experience for? Because I’m striking out HARD everywhere I’m trying. I’ve been applying to HR jobs for years (it’s what my degree was in but never had any luck) and I’ve been trying for admissions reps jobs as well but I can’t get a call back from anyone. I’ve applied to a bunch of recruiting jobs but the only responses I got back were from places that required a ton of travel and I’m not interested in anything but occassional travel. I’ve had a rare opportunity in another field here and there (assistant property manager for a company that somehow didn’t require a real estate license, a job at a staffing agency. The problem with those was they would require a huge pay cut that would leave me unable to pay my bills. I’m out of ideas.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would think you could do any customer service job once you’ve proven yourself in retail, and by working your way up to management, it shows you weren’t just adequate, you knew the job very well. Maybe bank teller? You’ve probably handled money, too, so they know you’re used to that.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        Too much of a pay cut. I’m in about the only position (that I can think of) that will pay me more than $12 for the few skills I have.

        1. Dasha*

          Some customer service positions pay a lot more than $12, it really depends on the company/industry. I’ve seen some CSRs/Inside Sales Reps make a pretty decent salary and it could be a way to get your foot in the door.

          1. Retail Lifer*

            I haven’t seen any CSR positions that pay well. Do you have a suggestion for what industries might pay well?

            I really can’t deal with the instability of a job that pays mostly commission so I was avoiding inside sales jobs. Any thoughts on something that might have a good base pay and only pay a small portion of commission?

            1. The Cosmic Avenger*

              State or city agencies often need frontline phone staff that simply can look things up for the general public and eventually get to know the common problems or issues that people call about. It’s still a call center, but IMO they’re less stressful than commercial call center or retail jobs.

              1. Retail Lifer*

                I keep applying to these. It would actually be a manageable pay cut. If only someone would call me back…

                1. The Cosmic Avenger*

                  Remember, these types of jobs can take many months just to schedule interviews. But once you get an interview, I expect they’ll realize how awesome you are and fall all over themselves trying to hire you.

                  Unless they’re idiots, in which case you dodged a bullet!

            2. Dasha*

              Well, it depends on what you consider good pay. I’ve worked at several companies were CSRs were salaried employees with benefits and made more than $12 an hour. I’ve also worked at a company were inside sales was basically customer service and was not dependent on bonuses. These were also salaried employees with benefits. The pay wasn’t amazing but it was a decent job.

              1. Dasha*

                I think maybe you need to look for reputable companies and not look for those more retail CSR positions like at a hotel or something. Hope that helps!

            3. Pipes*

              Check out technology companies that sell business-to-business. You could certainly look at IBM or the like, but I’m thinking companies that are not day to day names for most of the public such as Avaya, Juniper, Cisco, HP, Dell, Aruba, etc. Each of these companies have resellers / partners that actually sell their business, too, and most of these partners would probably be a bit easier to get a job in vs the companies themselves. I work for one of these major companies as an inside sales person and make six figures a year; 30% of my pay is commission with 70% being base. So even if I have a terrible year, I’m still making a decent chunk of money. Most partners / resellers don’t pay that much, but most stay away from the commission only basis.

    2. Joey*

      What kind of retail?

      Whenever I hire my professional hr folks I always see retailers and I don’t get why? If you haven’t been in an entry level HR role it’s really hard to get into a professional position. I realize that’s probabaly a cut in pay but its super important to understand the black and white stuff before you get into the grey of HR. Recruiting jobs at staffing companies are a good foot in. You’d probably have an easier time applying for admin or HR jobs at retail companies.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          They all seem to require site visits and I take public transportation. Is it possible that some agencies wouldn’t require that?

          1. Joey*

            Yes. Some you just sit in an office talk to people over the phone, do some in person interviews and make rare visits to high volume customers.

      2. some1*

        +1. Or sign up at a temp agency and emphasize you are hoping to get placed in an HR Dept – they have a need for temps, too.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          I’d consider if it was a temp-t0-hire.

          Literally the ONLY call I’ve ever gotten for an HR job I applied to was for a temp job covering someone’s maternity leave. The experience would have been great but then what do I do in a few months with no job and insurance?

          1. doreen*

            My daughter just got a job in recruiting at a large medical center – but she didn’t get hired straight into that position. It came from an assignment through the center’s in- house temp program. It’s steadier work than an regular temp agency.

      3. Retail Lifer*

        Clothing stores, big box, a beauty supply wholesaler…I’ve done just about everything in retail.

        The entry-level HR jobs are just too much of a pay cut so I’ve given up on that. I realize it would be ridiculous to think I could just walk into a higher paying position without some experience first. There are several big retailers with their headquarters in the city where I live, but I can’t get my foot in the door with any of them.

        1. Sunflower*

          My friend is in a similar spot where she is in operations and trying to get into HR. I’m thinking there’s probably a lot of competition since HR tends to be one of the only normal hours jobs

        2. Joey*

          i don’t know if you qualify but getting your PHR would show companies that you’re not just another retailer who thinks she’s qualified for a professional HR job. They test on all facets of HR, not just the ones you see as a manager.

        3. Sunshine Brite*

          Is it too much of a stretch to start saving up to try and take a pay cut? Coming in at entry level is one of the easier ways of breaking into a new industry and I’m sure harder at the higher levels.

          1. Retail Lifer*

            It is. We’re talking a $6000 pay cut. I can’t make that work.

            I don’t have kids, I take public transportation, and I don’t go out and do much. My expenses are pretty minimal but I have some debt and student loans and there’s no way I can keep up on so much less.

      4. Sunflower*

        My friend started out of college at a staffing company. She didn’t make much the first 6 months- it’s kind of a trial period but afterwards, she got a major pay bump plus bonuses. 4 years later, she’s a director there and out of all my friends, is the most financially secure. So definitely worth a look at!!

    3. Jennifer*

      Unfortunately, the trend these days seems to be that you can only get hired for jobs you’ve already done before–stretch jobbing just isn’t happening. I don’t get calls for anything because I want out of what I currently do, and it’s not like it’s something easily transferable elsewhere. And the similar jobs I’ve seen at similar institutions are even more crazy stressful overload than what I’ve got now–like we have 3-4 people doing the jobs here that they want one person to do!

      I don’t know if it’s you, but that seems to be the trend in general.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        Definitely seems to be the case. I’m both miserable AND in a dying industry, though, so I have to figure something out.

    4. Tagg*

      Try looking at hospitals and large healthcare organizations in your area. There are quite a few entry level positions that pay decently. When I moved to a new city to escape a toxic work environment (yes it was that bad), I applied to every position I felt I could do based on the job description, even if I didn’t really know what the position was (job titles can be a bit weird in healthcare). I started as a registrar for labs and xrays (as a “Patient Access Representative I”), and I’ve moved into a sort-of-receptionist-slash-office-manager position (as a “Customer Service Specialist”). The nice thing about hospitals is that there’s always somewhere to move into, and (at least in my experience) they’re generally really good about helping you move positions within the organization. Also, the health insurance is good :)

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I’ve skimmed a few postings for hospitals but never looked very hard for jobs there. I’ll look into this. Thanks!

      2. Geek Girl*

        This is good advice. I have worked in health care for over a decade, most of that in various positions in hospitals. The “Patient Access” jobs will use a lot of your retail skills (working with the public, providing good service), but it is definitely not retail. If you are bright and motivated and do well, you can find all kinds of opportunities. There are lots of “hidden” jobs or jobs that people don’t think about in hospitals that pay at least as decently as retail and have the benefits of working in a hospital (lots of opportunity, actual benefits, etc.) – mail room, copy center, all kinds of schedulers and registrars, many different levels of clerical/administrative roles.

    5. Alex*

      Check around the internet for Account Coordinator, Client Development, Customer Success type positions. Many of these can be home-based as well, and usually pay quite well even when a portion is commission-based. A good path for you would also be to look at corporate jobs at the company you work for, and/or your competing companies or other companies in a similar product vertical. For example, I used to work at a cell phone store, and a TON of people there went to work at Best Buy or Target corporate. Check to see if there are any Sales Operations, Sales Marketing, Channel Management, Brand/Product Management, etc. A lot of these will have a sales component but often not a “hard” quota, so your paychecks won’t fluctuate as much.

      Another option would be to look at companies that promote from their retail management staff, and try to switch to one of those companies.

      Good luck!

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I’ll look into those job titles. Aside from Account Coordinator, I’ve never looked at a job posting for any of those positions. Thanks!

        1. rPM*

          Agree with looking for customer support related roles, which can be listed under all sorts of titles. You might try looking for that type of position within a higher-paying industry since you’re looking for a pay bump as well. I’m in the startup / tech world and we frequently consider candidates with retail-only backgrounds for our non-technical, entry-level customer support roles. It’ll vary a lot by company and geography but the positions I see typically pay $14-16+ depending on experience, and often have opportunities down the line to grow into areas like project or account management.

        2. Retail Lifer*

          These *all* seem to require travel, but I’ll keep looking for other things with these titles.

    6. BAS*

      I worked retail for 3 years as a personal shopper and now am in HR. I’m sorry you’re stuggling so much to find something to get out!

    7. Felicia*

      Member services at any professional association. That is about a third of what I do, and I think someone with a retail management background would be great at it.

  26. LizB*

    I had a phone interview yesterday (YAY!) that I think went… okay? I applied for one position, and they wanted to interview me for that position plus two more, so my answers were a little garbled sometimes — it’s hard to talk about why you’d be a good fit for three different roles! They also stumped me with a question about my long-term career goals, which I haven’t spent enough time thinking about and hadn’t prepared a good answer for. But the jobs all sound great, the work environment and benefits sound AMAZING, and I’m really hoping they want to move forward with me. 2-3 weeks until I hear back! Are you supposed to write thank-you notes or emails for phone interviews?

    I also got the nicest rejection email I’ve ever received. The hiring manager said they were looking for someone with more experience with X (which I knew I was a little short on, so fair enough), but she enjoyed reading my cover letter (yay!) and would keep me in mind in the future. She also suggested that I check out two other organizations in their area of the field that are often hiring, which I thought was very nice of her. So, all in all, not a bad way to get turned down.

    1. Slpm*

      I also got a pretty awesome rejection phone call today. They highlighted how close a decision it was, how impressed they were and forwarded my information to 2 other hiring managers (one with unposted listings) within the company.

  27. SoBurnedOut*

    Does anyone have experience dealing with intimidation from a former employer? For regular readers of open thread, my saga continues! I quit my job three weeks ago, and two days after my last day, my former boss sent me a termination agreement asking me to sign it. It contains a one-sided non disparagement clause and asks me to sign away my rights to sue them. I’ve ignored it, but after a week I started getting daily calls from him. After I blocked his number, he got a member of our board of directors to start calling and texting me. I’ve blocked him, too.

    Since then, they’ve been trying to use the new hire to get through to me. I sent the upper management an email saying, “Thanks for following up. I decline to sign this form and do not wish to discuss this further.” I got 10 missed calls from different numbers today, all tracing back to the old office.

    I no longer want to engage them AT ALL, but can’t afford a lawyer. Is there anything I can do to stop them from continuing to contact me, even after I’ve asked them to stop?

    1. SoBurnedOut*

      To add some more color as to why they might be so insistent on having me sign this document, one of the many reasons why I’d quit was because of how angry they became when I brought up the possibility of employee misclassification. I thought it would be helpful if I’d approached my former employer instead of going straight to the IRS and Dept of Labor, especially since there were multiple former employees who were affected.

      Instead, they became really angry and told me I was being unreasonable. I was even accused of trying to force a retroactive raise by doing this (I REALLY wasn’t. I knew and had accepted the low pay going in to the job, thinking it would be balanced out by the learning opportunity).

      The termination agreement said that they would reclassify me only if I signed the agreement. As far as I understand, that means the agreement would have no teeth anyway, because that reclassification is something they’re legally obligated to do. At this point, I think I’ll just go straight to the IRS and submit my SS8 form, then hop on over to the Dept of Labor.

      In all honesty, though, I really just want to be left alone so I can concentrate on finding a new job and pivoting my career. I don’t want severance from them– I very much just want them to leave me alone so I can move on. I’m really disappointed and kind of shaken that this was how things played out.

      1. Observer*

        One ting is for sure. No “non-disparagement” clause can keep you from reporting mis-classification or the like to the IRS or DOL.

      2. Apple Basket and Oranges*

        I say go to the dept of labor, and IRS as you plan.

        Do you still have all the phone calls from the office? Are they leaving you a ton of messages? Be sure and save this contact.

        I would answer next time they call. Avoidence isn’t helping here, and if you want to move on and not deal with these people anymore you need to address them directly. Answer the phone and say something like this. Rehearse with a friend if you have to. Perhaps have that friend stay with you for the call so you can focus on them and not the voice as you speak.

        Work calls and asks about the cease and desist letter. You interrupt them and firmly say:

        You need to cease and dissest this harrasing contact immediately. If you continue to harrass me I will go to the police. This is your last warning. No one from this company is to contact me again.

        And then hang up. If they call again, go to the police and file a harrasment charge.

      3. College Career Counselor*

        I’ve seen a couple of non-disparagement clauses–they are obviously to protect the company, but usually there isn’t any point to them if you’re not also getting something as well (severance pay, continuation of insurance, etc.). I’ve not been following your particular situation, so I’m not aware of the details. But, it does seem to me that a non-disparagement agreement AFTER you’ve already formally quit is like closing the barn door after the horse has left. I don’t know how long you were there or anything, but you can always push back on adding language that prevents THEM from disparaging YOU. There are obviously ways around this (is anyone there a potential reference for you?), but if you wind up signing it, push for language that protects you to some degree.

        ObDisclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer

    2. Bee Eye*

      Seems to me that if you no longer work for them then you are under no obligation to do jack squat. They should have made you sign that while you were still employed by them. Perhaps you could file a police report for phone harassment or something along those lines?

        1. SoBurnedOut*

          Would I be able to do this without seeing any of them in person? I haven’t filed anything with the IRS or dept of labor, or claimed accrued paid vacation pay (I’m in CA) because I’d rather just put this FAR behind me than have to see them at a hearing. I’m starting to get anxiety attacks over the thought of seeing them. The other day I accidentally found myself walking past the old office and started trembling. I’m not sure how I’d hold up in a hearing.

          1. Retail Lifer*

            If this was an ex-significant-other doing this to you wouldn’t everyone be telling you to seek a protective order?

            Disclaimer: I work at the mall and I am the furthest thing from a lawyer you can imagine.

          2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            It depends on your state, and I’m not sure about CA. In many states, you could file the charge without seeing them, but if there is a court date, you would both have to be there at the same time. But the chances are high that they would stop the calls regardless of what happened in court. This is a not a huge legal that would require thousands of dollars in legal fees. A lawyer could probably represent you with just a couple hours of their time (this would address the “holding up in a hearing” concern. It’s pretty unlikely it would go to trial, and might end up just being a way to get their attention.

      2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Without really understanding the background information here, I agree that filing a police report, or threatening to, if the harassing phone calls continue would be a good course of action.

        1. catsAreCool*

          I talked to the police once when I was concerned about a semi-stalking incident, and they were kind and very helpful. They might be able to tell you more about your options, especially if you call and ask to make an appointment first.

    3. Sunflower*

      Would you be willing to threaten legal action? Send the same email as above and state ‘Please do not contact me any further. If you do, I will have no choice but to seek legal action’.

      I’ve heard people on here talk about getting a letter from a ‘lawyer’ that won’t actually go anywhere. No clue how this is done but that would for sure get them off their back.

      1. SoBurnedOut*

        I’ve thought about it, but recognize that if they’re crazy enough to pursue something this worthless, they’re crazy enough to escalate things if I so much as suggest it.

        I can’t afford a lawyer, and they know it because they paid me basically minimum wage, and worked me so hard that I didnt have any remaining time to find ways to supplement my income. They have a history of pushing people around.

        1. fposte*

          Are you anywhere near a law school? They’ll often have student-run legal clinics. And around here a lawyer would probably be willing to talk to you for free about this; writing the actual letter would probably be about $25, but even the conversation might be helpful.

          But I think going to the cops is a reasonable move at this point, too.

          1. SoBurnedOut*

            I do, actually! Thank you for the idea. I’ll look into it this afternoon once I send out today’s batch of job applications.

          2. ExceptionToTheRule*

            I was going to suggest this too. I had to threaten sue my non-custodial parent to get the child support owed to me during several years of college (all parties agreed said non-custodial parent would pay the money directly to me while I was in college as that parent’s contribution to my college education). Our crack law school legal clinic drafted the letter for me for no fee and miracle of miracles, a check arrived shortly thereafter.

        2. Malissa*

          You might have a case that a lawyer may take on contingency, especially if there was labor violations involved. I’m sure you could find one to talk to for about half an hour for free.

          1. SoBurnedOut*

            I actually approached three different firms about the misclassification concerns, before I quit. All three said that while I had a case, because my former employer is a nonprofit and only 5 people total were potentially affected, it’s not big enough of a payoff to take on. My best option with the misclassification would be to go straight to the IRS and Dept of Labor.

            I’m not sure what kind of severance might make it worth both a lawyer’s time and mine, but I was getting paid $25k/yr, so it seems unlikely that any package they offer will be sufficiently big.

            1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

              The Department of Labor is set up, in most cases, for people to be able to access their services without a lawyer. They are pretty user-friendly. I think I would go that route first.

            2. chump with a degree*

              Absolutely contact the State Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. You may not even need a hearing. They are very helpful

              uu

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Would you be open to a large severance payment in exchange for signing? If so: “It’s my understanding that the sort of agreement you’re asking me to sign typically accompanies severance payments, but isn’t normally signed outside that context. If you’d like to negotiate severance, I’d be glad to consider it. Otherwise, I don’t see any reason to sign an agreement like this after my work with you has ceased and would like you to stop contacting me.”

      There’s a reason they’re pushing so hard for you to sign; they fear you have a legal claim. Severance and a general release form are the usual way to handle that; they can’t just do half of it.

      2. SoBurnedOut*

        From my experience, I doubt they’ll react well. It’s hard to imagine that they’ll give me enough severance to afford the lawyer to negotiate it and still have some left over to make it worth my time. During my notice period, I got pulled aside a couple times and was told that I’d cost the organization a lot of money and resources to look into my misclassification claims, and that they were disappointed in me for causing such a big distraction about it. I’m afraid I’ll be opening myself up for some kind of damages lawsuit. It *sounds* over the top, but their whole reaction to this has been so over the top that I wouldn’t put it past them.

        Is it silly? I’m smarting from the accusation that I brought all of this up in an attempt to wrest a retroactive pay raise from them. It absolutely wasn’t. Money would be great but I’d rather continue this rice and beans diet and working at DQ indefinitely than be accused of being greedy.

        Once the dust settles and I find a new job, I WILL report them to the IRS and Dept of Labor, because I can’t in good conscience stand by and let them do this to other naive new grads like I was when I came onboard. I don’t want to sign a release that will prevent me from doing that.

        As I understand it, this release might not stop me from doing that anyway, but I don’t want to leave it up to chance and see no reason to further engage them.

        1. Sunflower*

          Wait what? IANAL but I don’t see how they could hit you with a damages lawsuit. Does this fall under retaliation of some sort?

          1. SoBurnedOut*

            I’m not sure! I’ve lost so much sleep over this that I’m not even sure I’m thinking straight anymore…

          2. Elysian*

            Its probably not retaliation without a lawsuit, formal complaint, or an adverse action, but SoBurnedOut, you would almost certainly not be liable to them for an investigation about whether they were properly following the law. That just isn’t a thing. You shouldn’t worry about that.

            1. SoBurnedOut*

              That’s such a relief– thank you for explaining. I’m clearly in way over my head, and it’s starting to look like I need to find a lawyer. Hopefully I can find some legal help at a local law school like fposte suggested.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Just to be clear: You don’t need a lawyer if your preference is to just ignore all this. They can’t make you sign, and you’re under no obligation to keep responding to them. You can leave this in your past and just move on (and file with your state department of labor over the misclassification if you want, without a lawyer).

                If you do want to negotiate severance, though, then having a lawyer contact them on your behalf could be really helpful.

        2. BRR*

          Asking for a large severance might stop them from contacting you.

          I’m confused (maybe I missed it) why you won’t report them now. That might also stop them from contacting you. Then you can tell them, “I have been advised (don’t have to say lawyer) to not speak to you while you are under investigation for a complaint I filed.” If they’re smart they wouldn’t want to contact you from that point on. Plus once it’s filed the agreement would be worthless I think.

          2. SoBurnedOut*

            I want to concentrate on finding a new job first, since I quit my old job in the middle of my search because the stress of my old job was affecting my health. I’m worried about opening up a long and protracted can of worms that will eat into my ability to find a new position.

        3. Geek Girl*

          I’m a little late to the game here, but this stuck out to me:

          Money would be great but I’d rather continue this rice and beans diet and working at DQ indefinitely than be accused of being greedy.

          There’s nothing wrong with being paid fairly for your work. It isn’t greedy to be paid fairly and in accordance with the law. There’s no benefit to taking some imaginary high road where you would never stand up for yourself and ask for equitable pay and treatment. Even if you WERE trying to wrest a retroactive pay raise – so what? You’re a bad, greedy person for wanting your employer to comply with the law and then to compensate you fairly when they don’t? This is a dumb thing that they are trying to make you feel bad about. Quit taking the bait.

      3. Elysian*

        This. A contract isn’t a contract if you’re only giving something up and not getting anything. Even if it were a severance agreement, you can always refuse the severance payment and keep your rights. It has to go both ways for it to mean anything at all. If you would actually be open to severance, tell them you’d be willing to discuss signing it for a substantial severance payment. Otherwise block their number(s) and consider calling the police/a lawyer. You don’t have to sign it if you don’t want to.

        1. Mpls*

          +1 – they haven’t offered you any consideration, so it wouldn’t be a valid contract.

          Also, IRS employee classification is determined by facts, not by contract. So they can’t offer the employee classification you should have anyway or an employee classification you don’t qualify for as consideration.

        2. Anna the Accounting Student*

          Agreed. Consideration is such a key part of contracts that much was made of it in the basic undergrad business law class required for accounting majors at my school.

      4. Natalie*

        If you do this, make sure you have that severance in ACTUAL MONEY before you sign the agreement and give it back to them. They cannot be trusted one bit.

    5. Jwal*

      Are there any places you could get some free legal advise from? In the UK there are places where people can get some advice from law students or barristers if they can’t afford to hire a solicitor. Or is there an equivalent of Citizens Advice Bureau? If you know you can’t afford legal action but cancome across as knowing exactly what your options are then it might make you stand that you’re in a better situation than you are.

      Otherwise continue to block the numbers =/

      1. Daydreamer*

        This. In most provinces you can get a 30 minute appointment with a lawyer for free or a very reasonable amount (I think it’s $20 in my province) so you can ask legal advice on different issues. Is it the same in the US?

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Depends–some law offices offer a free consultation, but most of the good ones you have to pay. I had to pay $100 to just talk to someone who couldn’t help me for fifteen minutes. :P

    6. Observer*

      Please make a record of all the calls, you responses (and non-responses) and any emails or other correspondence.

      If this does not let up, perhaps you can get a lawyer to send them a nasty-gram. These guys are bullies, and might just back off if that happens.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      So, let’s see if I have all of this. You and others were misclassified, and are/were probably due back wages; you had accrued vacation time that was not paid out, which is required in CA; they want you to sign a release form, but are not offering any severance; and they are calling to harass you, getting others to call as well, and are not stopping when asked.

      I think the suggestion of checking for a nearby law school is a good one, but it also wouldn’t hurt to just call a lawyer, and ask if there is a charge for an initial consult. If they are willing to listen to you without an initial charge, it’s worth trying that.

      1. TalleySueNYC*

        accrued wages, misclassification, and unpaid-out vacation time are all things that the Dept of Labor in my state would handle pretty aggressively on behalf of the People of the State of New York, with you as an accidental beneficiary.
        Here in NYState, we take that sort of stuff pretty seriously, and we regard those violations as being more against the People of the State of New York than as against the original victim.

        So you could file the info, tell them the company is harassing you, and move on. They probably wouldn’t even need you to testify against them; this sort of stuff would all be paperwork, probably.

  28. LDT*

    Does anyone have advice for someone trying to get into psychology without a formal background in it? I’m in my early 20s with just a BA in English. Trying to see if I can get into a good masters program for psychology (to eventually move onto a PhD).

    Other than good GRE scores, what else should I know to get accepted to a good program? I’ve tried looking at volunteer positions in relation to psychology — would they take someone like me with no formal background in it?

    Any advice from people more familiar with the field would be awesome!!

    1. INTP*

      What area of psychology? Do you want to do counseling, clinical, or research?

      For clinical and research, you need research experience. Even though most clinical psychologists don’t do research in their careers, the strongest PhD programs focus on it. MA/MS programs almost definitely would focus on it because you can’t actually practice with a masters. You might get into master’s programs without extensive research experience because they can be a bit of a cash cow for universities and often aren’t funded, so they’re much less selective than with PhDs, but it will help you get into the best programs. For clinical, volunteer positions like crisis hotlines might help. For research, they probably won’t care.

      For counseling, then volunteer positions that put you in contact with people will be more helpful. You can also practice with a terminal masters in counseling (MFT).

      1. LDT*

        Actually, the position I’m really interested in in the long-term is to be a jail/prison psychologist. I’ve read different things so I’m not 100% sure on what it takes to get there? But it seems like I would be aiming to become a Clinical Psychologist (masters and then PhD) and work from there. Does that sound right at all?

        The volunteer position I was looking at is actually the volunteer program at the Columbia University Department of Psychiatry. All it says on their webpage is that “interested individuals should set up an interview”…so I’m not sure if I qualify or not?

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          Have you worked in a jail/prison? It’s a very different work environment that in my area would be difficult to get as a first step.

          I would seek work in the direct care mental health field while you build credentials and go to school. Places like mental health group homes and homeless shelters often offer flexible enough work to balance working through a masters with the different internships that are usually required. Start looking at required prerequisites.

          Volunteer programs likely won’t take on someone with no schooling and experience in a psychology specific role because of the legalities and ethics around psychology, but you could find a volunteer position working with the related population like organizations helping ex-felons re-integrate into the community, etc.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I work with several psych PhDs and I hire a lot of psychology PhD students for contract work and some of what you are asking depends on what type of psychology program you want to pursue: ed psych, school psych, clinical pysch, industrial/org psych. Everyone seems to have some experience working with people: tutoring, volunteering, TFA, homeless shelters, teaching, etc. It’s not universal, but a definite thread.

      Good luck!

    3. edj3*

      When I wanted to get an MS in industrial/organizational psychology (had a BA in English), I needed to take more stats and more psychology courses in order to meet the admission criteria. So you may want to look into that.

  29. Hunting Hiring Manager*

    I’m looking for some office etiquette advice.

    I’m a director of 15ish person department (depends on how many vacancies). We are going to be expanding in the next year and there’s an employee in another department who I think could be a good candidate for one of the newly created positions. It would be a promotion for him and I’m pretty confident he would be interested. I want to suggest he applies. In this situation, should I reach out to his manager or approach him regarding this position? I’d hate to get him in trouble as it is my idea (it will be a moderately difficult position to fill).

    1. Dasha*

      I think you should reach out to him and see if he’s interested and then give the manager a heads up.

    2. Beezus*

      In my workplace, a manager approaching a lower level person directly about a job opening in another area is Not Done. Managers don’t poach each other’s talent that overtly. You could approach his manager, and his manager could decide whether or not to talk to him about the opportunity. You’d also post the opening internally, so he’d have an opportunity to approach you about it, and you could be very encouraging at that point. It would also be okay for a person from your group who is at a peer level to him now, or would be a peer in the position, to approach him, if you didn’t direct them to do that – that’s just networking and is not frowned upon.

    3. Nanc*

      Hmm, if you’re allowed to hire internally without posting the position, I’d definitely talk to the manager first. You might come up with a plan to help them fill the position if The Guy moves over to your team. Offer to help with recruiting/interviewing, give The Guy time to train a replacement, etc.

      If you do have to post it for all internal candidates, the same might go–letting his manager know you think he’d be a great fit and assuring them that you would work so he could help train a replacement.

      1. Judy*

        I’d say if it is posted for all internal candidates, it would be OK to talk with the person to make sure they know about it. Most places I’ve worked the employee had to talk to their supervisor before applying for an internal promotion, so it’s in their court to decide if they want to apply.

        Based on some past manager interaction I’ve witnessed, I’d not be entirely sure the current manager would pass on the information.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Depends very much on your company’s culture and whether this would be viewed as poaching or good career development.

      It might be most politically correct for the employee to officially initiate the conversation after you’ve spoken to him off the record to let him know about the opportunity — you proceed with the job listing as though you didn’t know he was interested, but you know he is (and he applies when the posting goes up).

      Or, if the culture is very welcoming of internal moves, you can talk to him and then talk to his manager if he’s interested.

      If this would be considered poaching and you don’t think the employee can be trusted not to tell his manager, then I think you have to leave him be, but hopefully that’s not the case.

    5. CollegeAdmin*

      At my place, you would have to approach my supervisor first; it’s policy. For my new internal job, the hiring manager sort of went around that by contacting the head of my department, aka my supervisor’s supervisor. The hiring manager then approached me, I went through a confidential interview process, and got the offer.

      At another time, a different (a third) department wanted to recruit me but didn’t want to tell my supervisor for fear of jeopardizing my current job, and office politics. That hiring manager went to HR and had HR encourage me to apply. Sneaky and probably unethical, but so long as it didn’t come back on me, I was okay with that. (The position ended up not being filled so it never mattered.)

  30. Anony Academic*

    Anonymous for this. I’m in academia. I am miserable at my job and am in bitch eating crackers mode. I started midyear and am flabbergasted that it’s gone downhill so quickly – particularly because I tend to be a positive person! I hate that I’m just becoming this bitter person. And a lot of the foundation of this comes from my chair. There are misogynistic things said, racial undertones to why not to hire someone and in our interviews. Ugh. My advisors tell me I should stay another year so I can get a book contract and not burn a bridge. But I just don’t see how I can last two years at this place. It’s affecting my productivity because I often come home crying, and when I get a chance to do work, I can’t concentrate.

    1. fposte*

      What’s your position? You’re talking about a book contract and your chair, which sounds like faculty, but you’re still working with your advisor, so maybe not. Is it a term faculty position, maybe?

      If so, leaving early is a big step with consequences. How much time are you in contact with the chair, and can you minimize it? When you say “mid-year” do you mean mid-academic year, so you have a year and a half left?

      1. Anony Academic*

        It’s a tenure track job. I’m not working with my advisor/dissertation chair, just asking their professional advice. Yes, mid-academic year is when I started

        1. Anony Academic*

          And, I cannot minimize time with chair. We are an extremely small faculty in the department.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, wow. Quitting a tenure track job is a tough thing to do, career-wise. But you also sound really miserable. What generally is okay is if you leave for another job–you’d have to frame the fit problem in a way that makes it clear you’d not be running into that in any new position, and you’d need to keep the search away from your current department.

            But that’s a big challenge in its own right, and in most fields you’ve missed the hiring for the fall. If you felt you had to quit even without a job, would you be able to support yourself for a year? And if this means you ended up adjuncting rather than finding a tenure-stream position, would you be able to roll with that?

            1. Anony Academic*

              Thanks for following up. At this point, I’m willing to wait for the next job market round that starts late summer/early fall, and that would mean one more year at my job. I can take that, if I have an end in sight. What’s frustrating is the advice I’m getting from my former dissertation chair – to wait until not this upcoming job market cycle (2015-16) but the next (2016-17) which would make me have to stay at this job for two years. I don’t think I can handle that. I am also at the point where I’m weighing giving up a tt job for a postdoc, if I also apply to post-docs this fall and get one. From my other former advisor, they think I should wait until the 2016-17 and that I can try and institute change! As a tenure track junior person I will not be able to institute any change, let alone in one extra year.

              1. fposte*

                Longer has its merits–after the third-year review is a common time to move, as you probably know. But if a new job is okay with you only having a year in the position and starting to hunt, then it’s not going to hurt you down the line.

                But if you leave this job and don’t have another position, it can be really, really hard to get back on the carousel. I don’t know your credentials or your field, so I don’t know how hard, but there’s a decent risk of not getting another tenure track position. If this job is ruining your life, it may be worth that risk, but you need to be realistic about future options. Including the fact that, as you probably know, this is pretty much your one leaving opportunity–you have to stick with the next place until you’re a rock star and people are begging you to defect.

                1. Today's anon*

                  Yes, I second this.

                  I don’t know if this would help but can you find allies within your institution that are in your school or college? It could be other faculty members but also professionals who might not be faculty. They may not be able to change things in your particular department (and change in academia can take a loooooong time) but it could make you feel better and less isolated.

                  But if you are this miserable, I’d start applying 2015/16 and see what happens; just be prepared with some explanation as to why you are moving on.

    2. Tired*

      I quit a job that made me cry and I have no regrets. (Fortunately I was able to negotiate severence)

      If you are in a small, close-knit field, future bosses may know the jerk for what he is. If not, you can probably put a positive spin on your story “it turned out not to offer the opportunities I expected” or “I decided to focus my attention on my book”

    3. Jennifer*

      I hear ya. Seems impossible to get out once you’re in unless you get canned, though….

      I just heard an amazingly shitty story yesterday about someone getting fired because they’re obviously an out lesbian and their new boss is a homophobe (also, it looks like the firing wasn’t legal), but then got hired as a part time temp. What?! Especially irritating since this is a very gay-friendly town and I am just flabbergasted that would happen here.

    4. Anon for this*

      I don’t have good advice, but I feel your pain. I’m in bitch eating crackers mode with my job too, and the place is turning me into someone I hate. I hope things turn around for you soon!

        1. Kai*

          I’ll jump in on this, too. I feel nauseated at work lately, I hate this job so much. Solidarity!

    5. Geek Girl*

      For most jobs, “leave and never look back” is good advice. You’re in a very different position, and taking advice from people with jobs in other careers is a bad idea.

      I’d focus on improving your coping strategies and resilience. Go to counseling. Try yoga, pilates, boxing, some kind of exercise. Take long walks in nature. Get a massage.

  31. Amber Rose*

    I just want to vent about a dismissive coworker. Aside from his initial habit of asking questions and interrupting the answers, I now have:

    “Got lots to stare at today?” As I tried to figure out one customer’s extremely complicated invoicing program. Dude, F you, I am not slacking off, I’m studying.

    “You just never want to do anything.” To a coworker who was lightly teasing me about my sword fighting class. Except that she just doesn’t like violence, she does aerobics instead.

    “Make it talk again!” I was being trained on defibrillator maintenance. When you turn it on, it screams at you to attach the paddles, which is both scary and hilarious, but this coworker just kept hovering, trying to get us to activate it again. It was like, dude, I’m trying to train here. Equipment maintenance is vital in a dangerous work environment like ours. Don’t you have work to do?

    There are other examples but this is already long. :/

    1. Sunflower*

      ‘Hey, if you don’t agree with what I do outside of work that’s fine- just don’t talk to me about it. thanks’
      If you need something more direct just say ‘Dude, I really don’t appreciate when you say stuff like that- it makes it seem like I’m slacking off and you know I’m not. Can you just stop?’
      Then there’s always ‘Please do not speak to me about this unless you have something positive to say’

      If you’re dealing with the types who will come back and say’ OMGGSZ I WAS JUST KIDDING DON’T FREAK OUT’, just respond ‘I’m not freaking out, I’m responding to your comments which I assume you were looking for a response since you said something in the first place.’

      1. Amber Rose*

        When he made the comment about staring, I replied with a detailed and probably not entirely called for explanation of the use of and problems with the customer’s AP interface. Starting with how I couldn’t seem to install it properly. It did shut him down pretty quick.

        1. catsAreCool*

          Detailed explanations can be great for getting people to stop asking you unnecessary questions.

    2. Marzipan*

      Hmmm. Maybe try a raised eyebrow (if your eyebrows are co-operative in these matters), a stare, and a very pointed ‘excuse me?’

    3. Anie*

      I raise your vent! I’m having problems with a “joky” co-worker. I’m fine with the occasional teasing, but if I start signaling that I’m not in the mood or it’s coming on too strong, the proper response is to back off and say, “Oh sorry, I was just joking,” NOT continue to lay it on thick and then shout, “Jeeze, learn how to take a joke!”

      Argh. Monday, my boss and I arrived at the same time, so we spent a solid 20 catching up on each others’ weekends. I watched this co-worker literally go from person to person and make comments about how I never shut up. Then he came over and started going on and on about how loud I am and how my mouth hasn’t stopped moving since I walked in. I had to make three comments along the lines of “Can you let this go?” before he finally flipped at me. And now apparently we’re “in a fight.” Am I 14 again?

      Seriously, if the choice is a co-worker who won’t respect boundaries without growing angry or a co-worker who doesn’t talk to me, I’LL ENJOY THE SILENCE.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Holy crap. That’s some ridiculous, childish shit right there.

        Here’s one for you: last Sunday I badly injured my left leg in a set of circumstances that is an epic tale all its own. I didn’t realize how bad it was until I made it worse driving to work, where I collapsed.

        Dismissive coworker proceeds to laugh at me and ask if I need it amputated and generally treat me like a child. While I’m huddled in a chair in tears. :|

        I hurt myself a lot in very silly ways and I am the first to laugh at myself. I’m even laughing at how I hurt my leg even though I’ll be recovering for weeks. But there’s a time and a place. If i’m clutching my leg and sobbing, not the best time.

        I ended up taking a sick day and having a doctor give me shit for walking around too much on a torn quadricep.

          1. Amber Rose*

            The only thing I can’t do now is kneel, which is the thing that partially got me in trouble in the first place, or climb stairs. Recovery time is approximately 2 weeks, assuming I don’t get impatient and re-injure myself.

            I once broke my hip and was laid up for weeks. I can’t remember how I survived the boredom.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          what an ASS. and I don’t think there’s a whole lot you can do other than shut him down in as few words as possible – “Got lots of staring to do today?” “No, I’m working” in completely unamused tone. Sounds like the only way he knows how to “relate” to coworkers is through weird, mean, unfunny jokes, so don’t engage, make it clear you’re not amused and don’t have time – and don’t make a big production of it because then he’s still getting attention out of it which is probably funny to him. Ugh. Good luck and I hope your quad heals quickly.

      2. Michele*

        There is a time and a place for jokes, and joking with people who don’t like you tends to not work. When people double down instead of backing off in those situations, it really makes me mad. You are right, it is very junior high behavior. Does he also snap women’s bra straps?

      3. Snoskred*

        Anie – I had a co-worker who would just blab on and on about herself and her family and her grandkids.. the stories were never ending, and were at their core about regular every day life.. Like X came over, and then I made coffee, and then we ate a piece of cake, and then we went to the park, and then I stepped in a mud puddle, and then X, and then Y, and boring, boring, boringness!

        If her phone would ring and interrupt her, the minute she was off the phone, she would say.. So anyway.. and then launch back into her super boring story about people I never met nor cared to meet nor wanted to know anything about. I feel like if they knew what she was telling everyone about them.. then they would be super annoyed. If *my* phone rang, she would keep telling her story as if I was meant to multitask my work with listening to her idiotic tales!

        We had a massive falling out over a shift swap, because I’d asked if she could do *one* of my shifts which was slightly less pay than hers, in order to go and have some urgent medical tests done. She refused, so I went above her head to scheduling and got it changed, and she made a huge big deal out of it, because she was going to lose less than $20.

        Scheduling called me to let me know she was really angry about this swap, so I had a heads up and I spoke to my boss about what I planned to say to her the next time I saw her. Which went like this –

        She started beyotching about the shift swap right away, and I said hey, these medical tests were important, this was not me changing shifts to watch teevee or something silly like that. I reminder her about all the times myself and other staff had bent ourselves backwards to cover her – and I mean, I’d pull a double shift of 12 hours where I was meant to do 6, all at the last minute, without having any food prepared so I’d have to organise takeaway, which cost me money, etc.

        But she refused to see my point and just kept on bitching.. In the end, I threw $20 at her, and I said to her, “That should cover your financial loss. You are such a selfish person. Don’t ever ask me to swap a shift with you, because I will never do that for you. And now, I’m done with you. We’re not friends, obviously we never were friends if you would act this way. I don’t want you to talk to me ever again unless it is work related. That means no more long and boring stories about your family.”

        Yes, I did say it, and I truly meant it, but she did not believe I meant it, so the next shift she showed up and started trying to talk to me, and I literally put up my hand in the stop position, and I said to her – remember, I said never talk to me again unless it is work related. You can stop your story right there. Just pretend like I am not here.

        She really struggled to keep her mouth shut, and she was so in the habit of “So anyway” after getting off the phone, she would be a sentence into her story before I could stop her, but I made a point of always doing it. Over time, multiple stops and a reminder of exactly what I said above, and there came a point where she got the message, and blissful silence was mine.

        In your situation, I would probably talk to my boss about it and if they did not want to handle it themselves, I would say that I was going to speak up and give my boss an idea of what I was going to say, because enough is enough.

        I would say to this co-worker something similar to what I said to my co-worker – No more talking to me unless it is work related. I don’t like your jokes and I no longer wish to hear them. Don’t talk about me to other people, either. I just want you to leave me alone. – I would ask my boss to back me up on the not talking about me to other people part.

        And yes, my co-worker kept the $20. Just by that one action alone, she showed me exactly who she was, and I believed her.

      4. TalleySueNYC*

        I’d be really tempted to reply to him, “Do you have a crush on me? Is this some playground crush thing, the way you can’t let go of this, and have to keep poking at me, verbally? Please stop.”

        1. TalleySueNYC*

          (was supposed to be referring to Anie’s story about the guy who went to the whole office and then to her, just to say, “she’s always talking.”)

  32. ACA*

    About a month ago I think I mentioned that I had a phone interview for a job that I hadn’t technically applied for yet (I did apply when the job was finally posted a few days later). It went well enough that I have an interview scheduled next week! The job is with a Fortune 50 company, and I’ve only ever worked at nonprofits before, so I’m more nervous than I would be otherwise – obviously every new job is going to involve learning new things, but this is a new industry and an environment that I’ve never been in before, and even though I’m qualified it feels like I’m not because my experiences aren’t directly applicable.

    Anyway, my actual question: The interview will be in three half-hour segments, each with a different person. I’m assuming they’re all going to meet together after to discuss; is it ok for me to ask them mostly same questions, or should I have a different set for each person?

    1. fposte*

      If it’s only a half an hour, they probably aren’t going to leave you a ton of time for questions anyway. If there’s something that you think it would be helpful to get different viewpoints on, I’d frame it that way so people don’t think you’re just sticking to a script, but I’d ID top priorities in my questions and lead with those in case time runs short.

    2. Dawn*

      Figure out what questions you want to ask in general- what you want to know about the company, the position, the culture, etc etc etc. Then, before the interview try and figure out who the three people you’re talking to will be and what their roles are in relation to the position. This will probably make it pretty obvious who you should be asking what about. For example, I was part of a team that interviewed for a new analyst position. The VP interviewed the candidate first, then my boss interviewed them, then I and my colleague analyst interviewed them. If I had been on the flip side of the table in that interview process, I would have asked the VP questions about the company as a whole, the division that the team was on that VP oversaw and how it fit into the company’s vision, and the future of the division. I would have asked my boss about the role, her expectations for the role, what success looked like in the role, etc etc. And then I would have asked myself and my colleague what typical days were like, what the work culture was, how the progression of the roles have been, etc etc.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Some questions it makes sense to want more than one perspective on: in your opinion type questions. But probably have at least a couple different questions for each.

    4. Lynne*

      Some things (what’s the culture like here, what does success look like in this position) will vary based on the interviewers position so it might make sense to ask several folks. I just was part of an interview process where we had folks from several different backgrounds interviewing candidates and I’m sure we all have different opinions on the above questions. We did get together to chat, but didn’t compare notes on the questions asked, more on general feel and fit, etc.

  33. V.V.*

    Good day everyone! So I have an interview for a job that I applied for a couple of weeks ago. I am happy about it, but when I got the prescreen call I learned that it is a higher level than I had anticipated, because it is “salaried” and thereby I presume is exempt.

    Though I am not doubting my abilities to do the job, I am pretty sure I never want to be “salaried” ever again. Do I need to call back and decline the interview and not waste their time? Or is it reasonable to try to “negotiate” into a non-salaried position? I am not sure what I can actually ask or do without being weird and I don’t want to preclude myself from being considered in the future.

    I am in a pickle because if I don’t go through with the interview I will probably lose my elligibilty for unemployment. I am in even more of a jam if the job is offered to me and I decline it, as I won’t be able to say it is unsuitable employment, since it pays more than what I was making last. Had it been advertised as a salaried position I wouldn’t have applied to it at all.

    Any thoughts? Thank you all.

    1. fposte*

      Can you clarify what your concerns are? Is it that you don’t want to work more than 40 hours without OT, or is it something else?

      1. V.V.*

        Yeah pretty much. It was watching all the non – exempt people being sent home to conserve the budget, and me having to their jobs in addition to mine, because I was “the manager” and accountable for any shortfalls in my department. I simply became cheap labor, because hey, my time was already paid for.

        I know many times “salaried” people make more than non-exempt and get “perks”, but has been my experience that non-exempt labor is used more carefully, and I value this more even if it means I wind up underutilized or underpaid for my skill set.

        The job posting cited a specific shift, so I guessed it was non – exempt and thought I was safe applying for it.

        1. Jake*

          +1000

          I know the feeling. Working 70 hours a week for 6 months because I’m exempt has given me a whole new appreciation for how terrible my current employer is about taking advantage of employees.

          This was after being told I’d work Monday through Friday 8 to 10 hours a day and about one Saturday a month and no Sundays.

          …just finished working 20 straight 10 to 14 hour days last month.

          I don’t think I’ll ever be able to trust an employer about an exempt position’s hours ever again.

          1. V.V.*

            Fellow (future) refugee, take heart. I think there are many of us out there – too many. I wish I knew a way to fix (or break) this.

            I can’t even say I would have demanded a higher salary had I known what I was actually working for, because frankly there came a point when I knew there wasn’t enough money in the world to make that job worth it. Once I realized that, I knew I had to leave.

            To take a job that will do the same thing – well I am trying really hard not to make a habit of tossing my own self into the stew pot.

            Best of luck Jake, I hope your load lightens soon. If it doesn’t, then I rooting for you and hope you find a way to come out on top.

        2. InfoGeek*

          There are such things as salaried non-exempt positions. I’ve known quite a few people with jobs like those.

          1. V.V.*

            Salaried non-exempt position might be acceptable.

            It wouldn’t be out of order to ask? I am not sure when to bring it up. I have never asked the question before so I don’t know if it is best to be direct or what.

            My own feelings is that an interviewer may think that I am being inappropriately focused on this detail no matter when or how I ask it.

            Am I wrong?

            1. Thinking out loud*

              I am salaried and non-exempt, in a field that is often salaried and exempt. If you get an interview, I would ask about “work life balance” during the interview and see where it goes from there. I wouldn’t specifically ask about being exempt vs non-exempt – that’s not really what you’re concerned about.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Is it because you’re afraid you’ll be working too many hours? I’ve had bad experiences being in salary in the past, but now it’s about the only positive of my current job. I only rarely work over 40, and I can sneak out an hour early here and there or come in 20 minutes late once in a while and no one can say anything. My current position is salaried simply because I’m a manager. If I’m short-staffed I’m expected to be able to cover if needed, but I have a pretty reliable staff and that doesn’t happen often. I wouldn’t dismiss an opportunity JUST because you’d be on salary.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, this. It sounds like the OP has been taken advantage of the exempt status in the past, but I love being salaried/exempt. It’s not so great during crunch times when I have to put in a few extra hours, but it’s awesome most of the time. I don’t have to account for every minute; I can work through lunch and have a 9 hour day or I can slip out early for a drink like I did yesterday at 4:30 PM.

    3. cali_to_carolina*

      I agree that it depends on your concerns re: salaried. It might be strange to ask about hourly in some industries — in mine, youd be more of a freelancer than an full employee.

      I’d take it if you are desperate and see what happens…

      1. V.V.*

        It’s too bad because the only reason I would be desperate, would be because of unemployment restrictions. Frankly they are the reason I am wary of having this interview. If I only had to answer to me, I could be more choosy, I just don’t feel I am in that position and it is making me jittery.

    4. Red Rose*

      It is possible to be salaried and non-exempt–I am. In your position, I’d go to the interview and try to figure that out first. If the situation isn’t what you want, just talk a lot about how important work/life balance is to you (you would’t be lying, right?) and you probably won’t get the offer anyway.

      1. V.V.*

        Ah, there is the rub. It’s too bad there are some companies out there that mentioning how important work/life balance is would tank the interview.

        Thanks for responding, I feel a little better about this whole affair after hearing everyone’s two cents. If I am lucky who knows? Things might just work out for the best.

    1. some1*

      Omg, that was so horrible. I don’t live in New York but I never saw much point in getting my nails done at a salon, anyway. I don’t like fake nails and a salon manicure/pedicure doesn’t last any longer than one I give myself at home, and I can sit on my own couch while my nails dry. :)

    2. jag*

      Yeah, that was depressing but not surprising to me (I live in NYC and see a lot of exploitation of recent immigrants).

    4. Dang*

      Whoa. That’s just awful. I knew it was bad… but I didn’t realize the extent of it. I live in the NYC suburbs and see those places everywhere.

    6. Michele*

      It is horrible, and that situation seems so common. There really needs to be a crackdown on employers like that. In an ideal world where I am empress, those businesses would be shutdown and the owners would go to prison for slavery. The employees would be given English lessons and workers visas and set on the path to citizenship.

    7. GOG11*

      I think I read the second part of the series, the one that covered the chemicals in nail polish. I’ve gotten two or three pedicures and couldn’t stand the smell, but I’d assumed it was my asthma/hypersensitivity to smells/fragrance allergies and didn’t realize how harmful the stuff is.

      1. AdjunctGal*

        There’s a company in MA that pays its nail techs a good hourly salary and gives them health and 401k benefits. I didn’t think the manicure was outrageously expensive, either. I didn’t really realize how rare this is in the industry. Yikes.

          1. AdjunctGal*

            Miniluxe. I went to the Lexington location on a whim. You do have to make appointments online, though. No walk-ins.

  35. LiveAndLetDie*

    I see quite a few resumes cross my desk, and I am amazed at how many people with plenty of work experience still feel the need to list high school achievements on their resumes. I’m of the opinion that unless that high school experience was *exceedingly* relevant (like your resume is for a football coaching position and you’re listing the fact that you were HS quarterback or something), it has no place on a resume once you have higher ed. and/or substantial work experience to list in its stead. Thoughts?

    1. techandwine*

      In discussing this over IM with LiveAndLetDie this morning, I was venting about a resume I just saw that referenced High School accomplishments. This guy has been working full time since 1999, has held numerous jobs in his field, and is absolutely fully qualified for the position we are hiring for.

      But, he has an “Additional Skills” section at the top where he referenced an internship he help in High School and, my personal favorite, he mentions that he was in the “top two percentile for reading comprehension in his age group as based on standardized tests.” I do not even remotely understand how this is a necessary thing, or really a thing that deserves a spot under “Additional Skills”. This is for a DevOps position, so reading comprehension isn’t the most critical aspect we’re looking for (I’ve come to terms with the fact that the vast majority of my company will never read my documentation).

      What’s the most ridiculous high school skill you’ve seen left on a resume?

      1. Lia*

        LinkedIn suggested I connect with a high school classmate, and out of curiosity, I looked at his profile. He had his ACT score on there. We graduated in 1992.

        Incidentally, he has an MBA from a fairly prestigious program and a lot of impressive positions, but that just cracked me up.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Far too many people view a resume as an exhaustive list of ALL their accomplishments (every. little. twitch. gets documented) and not a summary of their relevant experiences and education. As a consequence, the resume starts to act like a black hole: information goes in, but nothing ever comes out.

      2. ginger ale for all*

        Not high school but one person attached their workout regimen to their resume. When asked why they did that, they had just mixed up applications – one for us and one for the gym job. We all tried the regimen though in our office as best we could and it was fun trying the stuff he did with office supplies and such. He turned out to be a great hire.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      I had a job interview a couple of years ago where the interviewer asked me to tell him what I was like in high school.

      I was 33 at the time.

      1. Clever Name*

        “I was intense, cerebral, and a rule follower. And a huge nerd. Just like I am now.”

    3. squids*

      Reviewed a resume just yesterday that listed the applicant’s driver’s license and boating license, each with date earned. (neither applicable to the position in any way.)

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I received a photo once and someone else listed their height and their weight, as if that’s at all relevant to anyone but Abercrombie & Fitch (I do NOT work for them!). But apparently that used to be acceptable. The boating license wins, though. That’s amazing.

      2. Anx*

        I wonder if this is because a lot of jobs require a driver’s license even if driving is not part of the job?

        I wanted to apply for several positions where driving was not part of the job. At one point, I even called HR to ask if a car was necessary, and they assured me there was no driving. Just the need to prove you had a driver’s license.

    4. Fuzzy*

      My sister is entering her senior year of college, and she has enough work/internship experience that I was able to tell her to take her HS stuff off. I had similar relevant HS experience that I kept on mine once I graduated, but only because I had previously volunteered with the organization I was applying for a job at.

    5. Michele*

      I see these things occasionally and just think of the Springsteen song “Glory Days”. Those people seem really sad to me that they still regard their high school accomplishments as being important. It is especially sad if they list a sports accomplishment. It would have to be winning some sort of national science competition (I hire scientists) to be remotely impressive.

    1. fposte*

      Wow. Zenefits dude is a major asshole. How many people are now going to cheer quietly when his company fails?

    2. LiveAndLetDie*

      Wow, I think the Zenefits guy was really unfair here. Weighing your options is absolutely a normal part of choosing a new job. I guess the lesson is don’t name the companies you’re weighing when you ask for advice online, I guess.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I feel like that was bad judgement on the engineers part. If you ask advice online, you should always be vague and leave out identifying details. For personal safety if nothing else.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I agree. I think Zenefits may have been right to withdraw the offer*, but it should not have been done publically like that.

        The young engineer made a big mistake providing enough identifying info for the companies to know who wrote the comment. This shows poor judgment; the kind of person who will go on social media about a work problem and name companies and people.

        * I did not actually go to Quora to read the thread.

        1. Natalie*

          Eh, I disagree. From what was quoted, at least, Engineer wasn’t bashing Zenefits in any way, just discussing the relative merits of the two companies. By his own words, the Zenefits guy didn’t pull the offer because Engineer named or criticized his company online, but rather because apparently debating between 2 offers meant Engineer didn’t “want to work [t]here”. That’s an overreaction, and Zenefits guy seems to know it as he tried to ninja edit his comment.

          1. Natalie*

            Oops, “ninja edit” was unfair; apparently he did note that his comment was edited.

            1. Cath in Canada*

              All users’ edits are visible on Quora. (Go to any profile and click “Edits” under “All Activity”, on the menu directly under the profile photo). So it’s always better to be upfront about any controversial edits than to try to hide them!

          2. Creag an Tuire*

            I thought the reason the offer was pulled was because the major “drawback” to Zenefits was that “I really want to apply to Google in a couple of years and it will be easier to do that from Uber”.

            I’d have pulled the offer too, though not publicly.

    4. LizB*

      Wow. I grew up in Silicon Valley but don’t currently live there, and everything I read about the corporate culture of the region makes me really glad I left before I had to try job-searching there. It’s totally normal for job seekers to be weighing different options; expecting everyone who applies to work with you to be 110% committed and devoted to working for Your Company Only is absurd.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      What a tool! “You received other offers and dare to consider them? Well then, you must be a good candidate, so we don’t want you! Nanny-nanny-boo-boo! Pppphhhhhtttttt!”

    6. INTP*

      I feel like I can see both sides here. On one hand, it’s short-sighted to only want employees who have no other great options than working for you, and clearly the engineer saw something in the company or their offer if it was such a dilemma given Uber’s bigger name. On the other, the engineer exercised absolutely horrible social media judgment. It seems to me like it would be common sense to ensure anonymity and say things like “Big name mobile app company” and “Up and coming startup” instead of company names. If he would be this stupid about weighing the options, could he be trusted not to attach the company name to rants or other unflattering or confidentiality-breaking posts in the future?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I get what you’re saying, but it sounds as if the engineer wanted to know specifically what people thought about those two companies. There weren’t a ton of personal details (except that Uber wouldn’t negotiate salary but Zenefits would). Of course, if Zenefits is a small enough company, it probably wasn’t too difficult to pin down whose offer to rescind.

        In this situation, I get why the Zenefits CEO said what he said. Still, I think he overreacted, and it ends up ultimately being a bad PR move for the company. There is absolutely nothing wrong with candidates weighing two offers. And, oddly enough, the candidate’s assessment of the two companies seemed to favor Zenefits (except the brand name recognition). In this case, I’d say the engineer dodged a bullet.

    7. Karowen*

      From a PR perspective, the Uber employee’s response was basically perfect. Not calling out the other guy in any way, just implying that they’re okay with people weighing offers – and leaving readers thinking that they are a much classier company than Zenefits. Kudos to Uber on that!

    8. GlorifiedPlumber*

      This is going to sound horrible, but I love corporate job drama sometimes. Only thing missing is popcorn.

      Plenty of learning to go all around here.

      Posts like this support the whole “We’re in a CS bubble…” in certain parts of the country too. What is interesting is despite this specific example, I see posts like this ALL THE TIME (almost daily) on Reddit’s /r/cscareerquestions thread. Very popular question for younger cs folks to ask.

      Good share! Perhaps AAM has commentary on how a young jedi presented with multiple offers might effectively (and fairly from a hiring managers point of view) weigh offers.

      Also, the WP is a little liberal with the word Engineer these days it seems.

    9. Anon HR*

      I’m not surprised the CEO of Zenefits is a jerk. One of our clients uses their service and it is APPALLINGLY bad. They are great at selling it and it looks snazzy but it constantly is messing stuff up like employee deductions, etc etc. Their staff seems totally clueless and just apologizes over and over.

  37. Trying to be mature!*

    So I am getting a new boss who was hired because of who she knows and not what she knows. She has never worked in my field but was recommended by an influential person (influential to my boss!) and she got the job. Even though she was the least qualified of all the applicants and two of the higher ups in the company said they wanted someone else the CEO still hired her. My resume is stronger than this person and if I had known that she was going to get the job I would applied for the position even though I know I would not have gotten it because the CEO wanted this person from the beginning. I saw her resume, I talked with her and she doesn’t have the experience in our field. Her resume had two jobs on and there were errors on it! I even have more education than she does. She has always worked alone so I don’t even know what her management skills are.

    So now I am being told that I am going to have to show her the ropes and how things are done etc.etc. And I have a huge problem with it. I am trying to be mature but how do you get through the day knowing that the person who you report to (it will be a 2 person department for now) doesn’t have the same skills as you and you are going to have carry the load of the department while she makes at least 60k more than you??

    To top it off I was told I was getting a promotion before this CEO started and it never happened because he decided to restructure and is bringing in all his cronies and giving them the best jobs. Of course, I am being told how valuable I am to the company and there will be things happening down the road for me I just have to be patient but how is it that these people think that is ok? They don’t want to tell me how long I have to wait or what these changes for me will be but expect me to wait patiently until they decide what is best for me. I just don’t understand this thinking.

    So now this new boss is going to start and I want to run for the hills! I am really having a hard time with this and I don’t have a good poker face. When I am not happy you know it! And now I have to deal with this woman being in my face all the time asking me about things she should know how to do if she was qualified for the job.

    I was talking to a coworker and she said sometimes it is ok if your boss doesn’t know as much you do because that is not what being a good leader is about and that this woman could be a good leader even if she doesn’t know the job. Then she said this is my opportunity to make my new boss look good and that will make me look good. The problem is I already look good! I do my job well and have been successful! Why should I make anyone else look good? How does that help me? I have done a really good job for 5 years and when there was a chance to move up I didn’t get a chance. I’m not feeling very gracious and I am looking for another job but in the mean time I am struggling with being mature about this whole situation. I’m trying to get in the right head space so that I can deal with the situation until I can secure another position but it is not working and keeping my office door closed and not speaking to the woman is not an option! Lol! I know I need to be mature but I am struggling…………………..

    1. Retail Lifer*

      At two previous jobs I was denied a promotion and then still expected to help train my new boss. I did it and was nice to the newly hired person simply because I knew it wasn’t THEIR fault that they were given the job over me. As much as I wanted to sabotage them, it wasn’t fair to take it out on them.

      Didn’t stop me from silently hoping they would fail miserably and catastrophically though.

    2. J.B.*

      I am sorry, being passed over like that sounds rough. All I can suggest is that the person might prove you wrong and have better management skills than you thought. And framing it to yourself as showing how good you are to her may help your ability day to day.

    3. Colette*

      Helping her is in your best interests. For starters, she is your boss and will be the one setting your schedule and measuring your performance. If you don’t help her, what’s she going to think of you?

      And what will the managers who currently like you think? And your coworkers?

      You think she’s not qualified, but you’re not able to judge that from your position. And the people who are hired her.

    4. Cordelia Naismith*

      First of all, I’m glad you’re job searching. This sounds like an awful situation, and there really isn’t anything you can do to make it better. Yes, the boss is primarily a leader, but if they don’t know anything about the industry, they might accidentally lead you off a cliff.

      In the meantime, try your best to keep a positive attitude while you’re there. Don’t think of it as making your boss look good — think of it as mentoring and teaching. The more you can teach this person, the better she will do her job as your boss in the future. That’s doing yourself and your current company a huge favor. If you allow your understandable resentment to prevent you from doing your best to teach her what she needs to know about your industry to be successful, you’re really shooting yourself in the foot. Incompetent bosses or managers can really make things miserable for the employees under them. Job searching can take a long time, after all — you could end up staying there longer than you think. You can’t do anything about her managerial style, but you can do something about her lack of knowledge.

      Lastly, I know it’s hard, but for your own mental health, try not to dwell on all the things you hate about how she got hired. Don’t gossip about it with other employees or vent too much about it to your friends/family. The more you talk about all the things you don’t like about her, the more you end up reinforcing all those negative thoughts, and you might end up working yourself up into “bitch eating crackers” mode. Understandably so — but I think you’ll be happier if you can avoid that.

      1. Trying to be mature!*

        Very good advice thanks! I need to force myself to stop fretting about this and deal with it in a professional and graceful manner. I’m just not there yet but I am mature enough to know I have to get there and get there quick!

    5. Hlyssande*

      Like Retail Lifer and JB said, your best course of action is to be kind and helpful – and wow her and the company with how awesome and gracious you are. The way you handle this will be noted, for better or worse, and will certainly affect your reputation if you take it badly.

      The new boss didn’t get hired AT you, even if the CEO chose her because she’s a crony. Do your best to come into it with an open mind and without prejudice toward her. She may surprise you.

    6. Sunflower*

      You need to take a major step back. You are making A LOT of assumptions about someone you don’t know. She could end up sucking or she could be awesome. You coworker is right. Refusing to help her is only going to ruin your reputation. Also, it’s not her fault you weren’t hired. You can’t refuse to treat her the way she deserves to be treated because you’re mad at the CEO. Also, you’re going to need a good recommendation from your current company to secure a new job. Don’t throw 5 years of good work down the toilet over this.

      What you company told you about a future position isn’t that weird. Very rarely do companies know what is going to happen in the future and when. Also you state you didn’t get a shot at the position but you also state you didn’t apply for it. Maybe your company had no clue you were interested?

      You seem to be really upset about what is going on at the company so you should be aggressively job searching.

      1. Trying to be mature*

        You are missing the point. I know I can’t not help my new boss. I still have to be professional my point is sometimes when you know you have to be mature it is hard to get yourself there when you want to scream it is not fair and be a brat about it. My company is well aware of my career goals and I wasn’t told the job was being posted. I saw it on the Internet. I know this woman is not qualified I was told this by two people involved in the interview process. She was the least qualified of 10 applicants. My point is how to you put your big girl panties on and deal in situations like this. I’m struggling with knowing how I need to behave and my emotions of being sidelined for someone who should not have the job. It would be a totally different story if they hired someone qualified for the job. This was a favor to a friend.

        1. Colette*

          Your first step is to stop thinking she should not have the job. Really, that’s what’s causing your problem.

          Your company may not have told you the job was posted because they don’t think you’re qualified for it, or they already knew they were going to hire her, or they didn’t want to hire someone internal. They don’t (and didn’t) owe you the job.

          Yes, you’re upset, and that’s fine – but you need to find a way to move past.

          1. Steve G*

            I personally don’t see how this sort of attitude adjustment is going to help the OP long term. Expecting a promotion after 5 yrs of doing well at a job isn’t a crazy leap, it’s an assumption that is steeped in the American dream of hard work = upward progression.

            I’m also not sure that wowing them with how great you are, as someone a bit further up, suggests, will even work. If the new boss doesn’t have industry experience, a lot is going to be lost on them. The Director of the office I used to work in (thank God, not my boss) was clueless to about 60% of what I did in the beginning, to about 20% towards the time I left. My boss understood 100% of what I did. My boss thought I was the best thing since sliced bread, the Director took a long time to “get” me. He saw emails, spreadsheets, comments at meetings, phone calls, but it took a long time to grasp that the things I was doing exceeding the requirements of the job, or to realize that the 2 sentence comment I made in a meeting has 2 hours of work behind it, or that a particular spreadsheet looked easy but took a full two weeks to do, etc. etc. The new boss may not ever understand that the OP is awesome.

            1. Colette*

              The manager may not know if she’s awesome, but she will know if she sabotages her or sets her up to fail.

              It’s the difference between having a paycheck and a reference or having neither.

        2. BRR*

          I think you are missing Sunflower’s point. You’re making a strong assumption the new person will suck (and they very well might) but you can’t say yet that she sucks because you haven’t witnessed her sucking. You’re angry because they didn’t follow through on their promise of a promotion and it absolutely, 100% sucks. It’s really unfair to place the new person in bitch eating crackers territory when you haven’t gave her a shot and you didn’t apply for the position.

          On a separate note, I’m not sure how long the CEO has been there but have they not seen you shine? Doing well for 5 years but the CEO only seeing 4 months means they haven’t witnessed all you have done.

          In terms of how to deal with it, you should act nice because it’s professional and if you’re super helpful you can get an awesome reference down the road.

        3. Sunflower*

          I just think it might help to think logically about the situation which might help you stop feeling so much resentment towards it. You seem really determined that you know this person is not the best for the job and maybe she isn’t- but you gotta accept that you are not the best person to make that decision. People don’t agree on hiring decisions all the time. You’re really worked up over something that may or may not happen and your feelings going into working for this person may affect the way you act towards them whether you realize it or not and that could end badly.

          The only way to deal with it just accept it. A lot of things about job searching and careers aren’t ‘fair'(fair is really subjective when it comes to jobs) and they suck sometimes but the only way to deal is to accept it as a part of life and know when you need to move on. This is probably not the last time this will happen to you so the sooner you can just shrug stuff like this off, the better of you’ll be. Focus your energy on getting out of there.

        4. catsAreCool*

          Remind yourself that you’re taking care of yourself by being helpful and behaving professionally. This isn’t about her; it’s about you. If you are professional,it will help if you get another job, it may help in getting a better job at this company, and it will tend to encourage your new boss to think well of you.

          You’re going to act professionally because for you and your future.

          One saying that helps me sometimes is “The best revenge is to live well.”

      2. Steve G*

        I don’t think the OP is making assumptions. They saw the person’s resume, and presumably those of other candidates, and they know what the new boss’ qualifications are, and that they are weak. I sympathize with the OP because you shouldn’t just hire someone based on leadership skills – which this new boss hasn’t even proven. You need to bring skills to a job, not just one connection. At my past company, people like this fortunately didn’t stick around very long. However, one of my friends started a new job at the end of 2012 and 2 of the Sr. group of 7 staff members got the job because they are long-term friends with the owner, so they have the VP of marketing whose never done marketing before and isn’t doing it there either, and the VP of ops who has no clue about their industry so is more of a….honorary post (if we can call it that?!) and someone else actually runs everything. He keeps getting raises, but these 2 people have caused his considerable agida at that job. Yes, he puts on a smile and acts “professional” towards these people most of the time, but sometimes, there is no work-around to these people. For example, it would be nice for a marketing campaign that helps sales or increases retention, but this person doesn’t have experience in marketing or the industry, so they spend most of the time re-doing brochures (often with bad information that he has to correct), ordering brochures…basically “brochure management,” which should only be part of the job. He says that the few real marketing things this person tried fell flat on their faces. The person grew up rich and moved to a rich area of NYC and doesn’t seem to grasp that most of their customers are low-mid income, because they keep trying to set up partnerships with NYC’s high end retailers (i.e. buy enough from us and we’ll give you $50 gift card to Bergforf Goodman). They’ve also paid to sponsor a few posh NYC galas, again, not grasping the concept that the rich attendees on the upper east side are not their target audience!

        1. Trying to be mature!*

          Thank you! You get it. I am not making assumptions I am going on what I saw, my conversation with this women before she was hired and what I was told by a person very high up in the organization that they did not want this person but their hands were tied because the CEO wouldn’t listen to them. The CEO is bringing in his friends over staff who have been here. My old boss left because she wasn’t given a shot at the job either and she was there for 8 years heading up our department and she has 20 years of experience and I have 10 years of experience 5 being at this company.

          What I was trying to get at is that it sucks! I know it sucks but now what? My problem is getting myself to let it go, accept the unfairness and be mature about it. Everything that is being said here is true this one is really sticking. My want to let it go is not as strong as my feeling like I have been handed a raw deal from people who say I am valuable but clearly not valuable enough to be promoted into the lead position. I get that this happens all the time and might happen again in the future but man I need some magic words to let it go because the song ain’t workin! I’m talking about here because I don’t want to talk about it at work with my coworkers.

          1. Colette*

            I think you need to get away from thinking a certain number of years on the job entitles you to a promotion. It helps, certainly, but even if the company wants to promote you, that doesn’t mean you will get any particular promotion.

            It’s normal for new executives to bring in people they know and trust, particularly if they’ve been brought in to make changes. It’s also normal for existing executives to feel threatened, although many of them wouldn’t do the kind of unprofessional trashing of a candidate that’s apparently happening where you work.

            It’s possible the new manager will crash and burn. It’s also psossible that she’ll be great – and even that she’ll be great and get rid of you because of your attitude, if you aren’t able to overcome this.

            I’ll say it again – stop telling yourself she’s not the one for the job. That’s only hurting you.

          2. Steve G*

            I politely disagree with Colette, only because of the knowledge of the candidate. I think Colette’s comment would be good for the more generic CEO-hiring-friends situation. If it is known that the person isn’t skilled for the job, you should started applying for other jobs regardless of having a good or bad attitude. At last co, the shortest this type of person stayed was 6 months, but more common was 9-15 months. Most (well, there were only a handful, but…) were not long-term employees, except the ones who would have qualified for the job regardless of connections.

            Also, yes years of experience doesn’t always = promotion, but the fact that you are getting good reviews coupled with your stage in life (early 30s? Or did you just mean 10 yrs in this one field, not overall?) should mean that something needs to give, either a promotion or a Sr. added to the beginning of your existing title or some more money….something..

            You could also ask to officially take over the parts of the job that you know the new person has no experience in, they might be relieved to get rid of the things that will make them look incompetent.

            1. Trying to be mature!*

              Steve G its 10 years in the field. I’m in my late 30’s. You get where I am coming from! Also I was told I was getting a promotion it is written in my last review before the former CEO retired. The new CEO came in and started restructuring. He demoted my boss because he didn’t like her (it was painfully clear that he didn’t like her and she would break down in tears on a regular even the head of HR encouraged her to look for a new job) so because she lost her title I lost my promotion. She was Director and my new title was Associate Director. She was knocked down to manager so I couldn’t have the associate director title anymore. I asked about it and was told there would be no directors in my department only managers and a Vice President leading the department. They were making both of us managers ( I am already a manager) and this new lady was coming in and being put over the both of us.

              People seem to keep missing the fact that I am not guessing she is not qualified I know she is not qualified. She got the job because of the person who recommended her not because of her qualifications. The CEO is going against the very people he tasked with picking the person to run the department. I saw her resume, I spoke to her she is not qualified. The CEO thinks I am going to stick around and carry the department and show “her how it is done” in his words. He has his reasons for hiring her but her qualifications are not one of them. This is all about who you know and not what you know.

              1. Steve G*

                Wow, I sympathize and wish you luck. The situations at my past job were nowhere near as bad, because the people didn’t manage anyone. It was slightly demotivating to see people brought in with fancy job titles and fancy responsibilities (oversee risk management) that a lower level person with the actual experience and knowledge of the ins and outs could have done, but it was nowhere near this bad. It usually just meant that certain work wasn’t really done or was done 1/2 way. But it was also an understaffed organization, so that happened all of the time anyway!

                Good luck

    7. edj3*

      I could be your new manager. I’ve just started a new position, and I don’t have the background in the specific kind of teapots my company makes. However, I bring other, very much needed skills to the position and that’s why I was hired. Not because I make fantastic teapots but because of these other skills.

      I have a new direct report who pretty clearly feels the way you do—it’s a source of concern to this employee that I don’t have the same level of knowledge about constructing teapots. To her credit, she’s asking for feedback and the number one thing I want to do with her is get her ready for a promotion.

      That’s my suggestion to you. Ask for feedback from the people who do know you and are familiar with your performance. Ask what you need to work on to be a contender the next time that kind of job opens up. Probe for places where you need to gain some skills or hone the ones you already have. Ask for stretch assignments. Show that you are open to feedback and then act on it. You’ll be even more stellar and you’ll be far better positioned for the next opportunity—whether with your current company or elsewhere. And your reputation will only get better.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      I understand how you feel. It’s frustrating, but I think your coworker is right. What she has suggested is the professional thing to do. It’s okay to be upset about it, but you really need to leave that outside the office.

    10. ginger ale for all*

      Just remember she will be your boss today and your reference in the future.

      1. Trying to be mature!*

        Not worried about a reference. I never use current bosses as references and I have some really good references from past jobs. All they can do is verify employment at my current job. The former CEO from my current job has agreed to be a reference and my former boss as well. Lots of co-workers and colleagues in the field to be my reference. I won’t every be using this lady as a reference I am already interviewing for other jobs so she won’t have worked with me long enough to be able to give a reference. With the type of work I do if I really want to be out of there I could get another job quickly. I am trying to move up in my career which is why I don’t just take the same job somewhere else. I could go to one of our competitors very easily. All I have to do is put the word out that I am looking. My old boss works for one of our competitors. She offered me a job to come work for her. I said no because she wasn’t the greatest boss either. I’m trying not jump out of the frying pan into the skillet but that still doesn’t make this any easier.

        This really isn’t about worrying about references or being unprofessional as I said before it is finding a way to mentally get out of a funk of feeling sidelined and upset about a situation I can’t change and that I know is unfair on so many levels. Like I said I’m trying to be mature about it but I am struggling because of what I already know about the situation. I’m not guessing about the person I know it, I saw it, I was told it by people who were involved in the process. They should not have told me but they did. They don’t want me to leave either and they are hoping that I will stick around and help this woman out and teach her what I know.

        1. TalleySueNYC*

          I get what you mean; you’re really looking for the internal tricks to get out of that mental rut of resentment.

          I currently have a co-op board thing just like that. And when I try to talk to people about how to out from under the mental load, they talk about the logistics of it.

          Here’s what helping me: forgiveness.
          Forgiving these other people for being flawed and human, and for taking advantage of things that work their way (for now).
          I’m trying to see them as full-dimensional human beings, with good parts and bad parts and lazy parts and hopeful parts and scared parts. All parts. and forgiving them for the times when the less-than-admirable parts are most prominent.

          And forgiving myself for being angry and resentful.

    11. Snoskred*

      Trying to be mature – Your CEO has shown you who he is. Believe him.

      In my opinion, it is time to look elsewhere for employment. Sad but true. :)

    12. TalleySueNYC*

      Think selfishly. And cynically.

      She’s got the “in,” so make that work for you. If you become her ally, you will shape the department more than you know. You will also look really good to everyone who didn’t want to hire her.

      And when she phases out (she won’t stay all that long, is my prediction; people who get jobs based on who they know are usually restless and impatient with having to know how to do the work), you’ll be the star!

      And you can apply for her job.
      But you have to be seen by everyone as “the person who knows how everything works and put the company’s ultimate goal above the personalities and politics.”

      Retail Lifer has another point; this woman is going to be out of her depth, and unless she’s a horrible person, she doesn’t deserve to have you make it harder. So, maybe have a little sympathy.
      The hardest part might be finding that line between helping and covering up/sabotaging learning.

  38. Bye Felicia*

    I’m looking for success stories about managers being brought in and making significant changes. I start a new position on Monday – I was brought on to make pretty serious changes in a field not known for collaborative and productive change. I’ve read a ton and now I just want to hear from people who had big changes made from a manager that stuck and that created a better workplace that produced high quality results.

    1. Steve G*

      I would like to mention my previous previous previous manager in the startup branch of a larger corporation I worked at. Picture a large, somewhat regimented company, but we were a wild-west division.

      The biggest thing he shook up was handling people, hiring, firing, promotions, raises. He broke down barriers to raises, argued against caps on raises, pushed really hard to get poor employees fired, pushed hard to get positions created, and pushed for a few promotions……and some of these happened during a short period of official wage freezes! These items changed the office more than any process changes would have because it was about having the best coworkers in the office and not having to suffer long with low performers or people who just didn’t care.

  39. Awful Waffle*

    This week, a guy who sexually harassed a coworker a few months back got promoted…again. And yet, I can’t find a job and get out of this dysfunctional department to save my live. Whiskey tango foxtrot…

    2. some1*

      They promoted a guy at a former company of mine who had actually been suspended for sexually harassing people. I feel your pain.

  40. INTP*

    So this hasn’t been an issue yet, and hopefully won’t be, but I’ll ask so I can be prepared. I’m on a new medication that can weaken my respiratory immune system and the instructions specifically say to avoid contact with people with colds. My respiratory immune system has never been very strong, I can get a URI from any little irritation to my respiratory tract (breathing second, even third hand smoke) or immune system (skimping on sleep for a week). So I know that I need to follow these instructions.

    Of course, people often come to work with colds. I get it, I used to have one at least once a month, you can’t always take a sick day for every single cold. I usually work isolated in my own cube but how should I handle it in the event that I need to be next to someone for some time and they have cold symptoms? Or goes to shake my hand and their eyes look a little puffy? I feel like saying something directly will result in the standard “It’s just allergies” which I then have to try to tactfully explain why I’m not taking them at their word (I sure have caught a lot of “allergies” from coworkers in the past).

    1. danr*

      Wear a medical facemask at work. If people ask about it, explain the reason. And, stand as far away as possible from the folks who are coughing and sneezing. At this time of year most of the sneezing is probably allergy related, but wear the mask anyway. If you can’t avoid shaking hands, carry some hand sanitizer with you and wipe your hands as soon as you can. Until then avoid touching your face or eyes.
      If folks wonder if it’s really necessary say “Yes”… and then explain that masks are most effective when the coughers and sneezers wear them. Who knows?, it might catch on.

    2. Observer*

      Don’t shake hands with anyone. “Sorry, I can’t shake hands.” If someone presses “I have some medical issues and my doctor says I shouldn’t shake anyone’s hand.” And don’t let them push. The key is to really not shake ANYONE’s hand.

    3. afiendishthingy*

      “The instructions specifically say to avoid contact with people with colds.”

      I have no actual advice but WOW that sounds difficult. Crossing my fingers for you that everything goes well with this med! Any chance of getting your own plastic bubble? Is that considered a “reasonable accommodation” under the ADA??

    4. catsAreCool*

      Can you work from home, at least part of the time?

      I think work and grocery stores are probably some of the places with the worst germs – when people are sick, those are 2 places that people are likely to drag themselves to anyway because they need to be paid or need food.

  41. Jennifer*

    Happily, I get to leave at noon today and don’t have to answer the phones. Huzzah.

    In other news, I got to hear a whoooooooooole lot of fun stories about certain people and all the drugs they took in their wild youth yesterday. It was a blast. Never would have guessed in some people’s cases!

  42. Anon for this one*

    Any data scientists or aspiring data scientists in the room willing to talk about their work in “2015’s hottest profession” and what it takes to get there?

    1. Brett*

      A large number of data scientists got into it from another field. Tons of geographers, statisticians, mathematicians, even met quite a few biologists, oceanographers, etc.
      Since I particularly deal with spatial data scientists, they are overwhelming trained as geographers at the graduate level (mostly MS, but MS is not terminal in geography).

    2. Jen RO*

      An acquaintance just got a job as a data scientist; she has a PhD in Statistics and about 10 years of experience as a statistician.

      1. A fly on the wall*

        This. Kind of.

        I’ve kind of sidestepped into it. Great move for me, but now that I ended up with the tasking its time for some more school so I don’t totally mess everything up.

        In my case, I started out as primarily a DBA with some programming duties, sidelined into data warehousing out of a shared shear frustration with a vendor, then ended up loving the data science stuff.

        My guess is that for the moment, there’s going to be a million pathways in, but since stats are used so much stats are going to be the foot in the door, but one of the things people will be looking for is passion and related experience.

        Be really clear with yourself why you want in, the way you’re referencing it sounds like an acquaintance of mine who’s entire focus in education was on what was going to make them money. Worked great right up until the point where they graduated from law school a couple years ago with a massive glut of other lawyers.

        She works in recruitment now, and loves it.

  43. My writing sucks!*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to become a better writer? I need help in almost all areas: content, style, and grammar. Any websites, books, or advice is appreciated!

    1. LizB*

      If you google “purdue owl grammar,” the top result will be a site with a ton of editing and grammar-learning resources from Purdue University. Super useful!

    2. Oldblue*

      Practice practice practice…..

      As someone who excels in writing, I can tell you the best thing to do is write something every day within the aspect you want to improve…. If it’s technical writing, write technical stuff every day. If it’s creative, write a short story every day, etc. You also get better with mentors critiquing your work.
      http://www.absolutewrite.com is a forum for mostly creative writers, but there are people who will critique your work for you who just hang out doing that for fun.

    3. D*

      My favourite topic!

      The best way to become a better writer is to read a lot! Read books, articles, websites, newspapers – even those crappy LinkedIn pieces. It’s not about the content so much as exposing yourself to a wider variety of words and expressions, which will help your vocabulary immensely and help you become more familiar with different ways of expressing ideas. It also helps to just understand how things look – how are they using apostrophes? Dashes? Semicolons? How are paragraphs structured?

      Learn a few really common grammar rules that you might struggle with. Learning how to effectively use a semi colon or a comma can really make a huge difference in how you write! It also increases confidence – you don’t want to be worrying about a where to put a comma when you’ve got an important document to write. The more variables you can eliminate, the more you can focus on truly communicating your thoughts.

      Have you tried low-pressure activities such as commenting on a lot of blogs/news sites or writing Yelp reviews? It’s a fun way to practice writing in different tones and styles – and figure out which one feels most natural to you – without having the stress of a work assignment or important document. Most importantly, people are more confident communicators when it’s a topic they know well, so writing a blog or a comment about your favourite topic (or waxing poetic about your favourite restaurant) will allow you to really focus on the writing rather than the subject matter.

      Think of someone who you would consider a ‘good writer’ and think about what appeals to you in that style. Are they short and concise? Do they speak in simple terms or is it more elaborate and impressive sounding? Try and identify things that sound good to you and see how you can incorporate that into your own writing, or what qualities you like in other peoples’ work that you might be lacking.

      Take your time. Good writing and communication skills take practice and it’s okay to write, and re-write, until it sounds good to you. Get a second opinion whenever you can – you don’t need to take the advice as gospel but it’s good to hear feedback on how you might be coming across.

      Good luck!

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I love the book Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. She is one of my favorite authors, and this is her book on writing. Have you looked into taking a creative or technical writing class online or at a community college? This could also introduce you to some people with whom you could form a writing group.

      Good luck!

      1. Jen the linguist*

        Warning: Although E.B. White himself was a fine writer, The Elements of Style should be used with considerable care as a guide to good writing or good grammar, because it’s full of misleading advice and even factually incorrect statements about how English actually works. Here’s a link to Geoff Pullum’s article on this topic, “The Land of the Free and
        The Elements of Style,”         which was published in English Today in 2010.

        1. AdjunctGal*

          Yes, thank you. It truly is an awful guide to writing, though perhaps it’s our linguist sensibilities showing.

    7. TalleySueNYC*

      Also, read. Seriously, read.

      Especially if grammar is what you want to absorb. Find some easy-to-read books that you like, and just read for half an hour every day.

      Oldblue is right about writing mentors; but they can be hard to find. Good ones will tell you why.

      i learned a ton back in the pre-computer days by looking over the markups the editors did at the publications I worked at. And trying to think of why they changed things.

  44. Job Offer Limbo*

    need advice!
    I’ve been job hunting since the winter. I have a full time job, but I got a new credential in December that ought to increase my earnings dramatically and I need a new job to make that happen. I’ve had three offers and now have an offer for an interview for a fourth thing. I chose one of the first three and lined up a side gig to fit with it neatly. It’s an academic job (but I’m currently not in academics). They have been stalling on my contract for…. months! I started interviewing there in February. I still want the job but I am so frustrated! I need to give notice at my current job and I need to look at the material I’ll be teaching and get oriented (this is a process in my field that will take at least a month before the start of the semester.) They seem in no hurry. I’m at my wits end (and don’t know if I should continue to interview or what).

    1. fposte*

      Ouch. Is it a state institution, by any chance? And when you talk abut needing to be prepared for teaching, does that mean you’d expected to be teaching in the summer semester? Have you looked online at their timetables to see if what you’re teaching is included in the summer schedule? (I’m assuming that there really is a contract part of the hire rather than this just being a situation where you’re waiting for paperwork on a position where they don’t do that.)

      I’m afraid I would recommend continuing to interview. I wouldn’t mention it to the contract-delayed folks until you get an offer that you’d take; at that point I’d say that I have an offer that I’ll need to accept unless we can get the contract firmed up and to me by x date. Too often these things fail at the institutional level, and you shouldn’t limit yourself while waiting.

      1. Job Offer Limbo*

        yes it is a state institution! I’ll be teaching in the fall. We had discussed my starting in June, loosely.

        I feel like I’m wasting other interviewers time by continuing to interview for jobs that aren’t my first choice, but….
        Working for them may well have its annoyances, but there are many perks I desire… that’s why I picked this job, over my other (very good) offers. I want the academic schedule, I enjoy teaching, I love the part time gig I’ve lined up (and don’t want to do that full time), the benefits are amazing. I know people who work there and love it. But I am frustrated.

        1. Judy*

          When my husband moved from industry to academia, he saw the posting in November and applied. He interviewed in February. He was offered the job in April and started a temporary contract on July 15 to prep for the start of his contract in August.

          It’s just how things move, especially when they are hiring for a position that doesn’t need to be filled until the fall.

      1. Cordelia Naismith*

        To be fair, this is pretty standard in academic hiring. It is a super slow process.

        1. Job Offer Limbo*

          yeah, I think it IS par for the course in academics. But when am I going to see the contract?! what’s reasonable?

          Also, I do not work in academics and they know that. It’s not like I’m moving from one university to another. In fact, I must continue to work in my field in order to teach in my field.

          1. fposte*

            But they don’t care that you don’t work in academics. I don’t mean that snootily, and I don’t think that not caring is unique to academics, either; in general, your other job or other job experience isn’t something a prospective employer thinks about. They operate on the schedule they operate on, and they really can’t make the state move any faster for anybody. They may not even have a budget approved for fall yet.

            Around here, fall isn’t an emergent situation, and I’d probably have answered differently if I’d known you were talking about fall; I know there are fall contracts that haven’t been lined up yet. We may not even have Summer II pinned down completely yet.

            I’m not saying your concern is irrational–it’s not. But what you’re describing doesn’t sound out of the ordinary to me, either.

            1. Job Offer Limbo*

              I get that….. when would be reasonable, do you think? FYI if I start the job at the start of the semester, I won’t be able to teach the classes they are hiring me for- theres a complicated training thing that takes a month, before I can teach.

              1. fposte*

                I’d say reasonable for a state institution is pretty much up to the last possible minute. Would you be unusual in that department for needing the advance month of training or is that SOP there? I’d follow up even in the second case, but if it’s the first, I’d be specific with a date–“I wanted to make sure we were on the same page about timing, since the contract needs to be in place by July 15 so that I can complete the full Mystery Training before the semester starts August 15. I know people take off during the summer–would checking back on July 1 leave enough time to make sure the contract is complete by July 15?”

              2. InfoGeek*

                State Fiscal year here starts July 1st. State budget often isn’t set until late May. Sometimes it goes even later. Then, once the budget is set, they see whether the position is funded or not.

                So, it’s normal to not have a firm job offer until July.

                Also, is this a 12 month contract position or a 9-10 month contract? If it’s a 9-10 month contract with an August start, be prepared that you may not get paid until a month later.

                1. fposte*

                  That’s what I was thinking of. I’m hoping that JOL isn’t expecting to do the pre-class training while under contract, because that might be trickier to arrange for exactly that reason.

    3. BRR*

      When did they make the offer? Is there any change they need to wait for the new fiscal year to do it (which is typically July 1st)?

      1. Job Offer Limbo*

        offer was 3 weeks ago.

        they have not told me that they are waiting for a budgeting cycle, though they have told me that some other person is ‘working on it,’ a week ago they said that a particular person in charge was figuring it out.

        let me also point out- I am cheap, qualified labor as far as they are concerned. the perks of this job do not include money.

        I’m just feeling so impatient!

          1. Today's anon*

            Yes, 3 weeks is nothing. And there are many layers of approval, even when a position was approved for posting, before a letter can be sent out. And like fposte said, we are trying to make sure Summer is covered.

            1. Job Offer Limbo*

              thank you so much to all of you for helping me gain perspective on this situation!
              I do understand that this process runs much more slowly than industry and that these people have other things on their plates.
              When they offered me this job, they said that contracts “typically” start in August, you can self-select whether you want a 9 or 12 month contract. But then they said that I’d need to have this training before I can start, so I could start sooner and they’d pay me per diem before the start of my contract. But I can’t not have benefits for a month, so I said no, thank you. For me, starting in the late summer would have been a deal breaker. And they said right away that they would work something out, that they understood, they’d get me a summer contract before my fall contract. I believed them, but I should have pinned them down more at that time if it was so important to me.
              If they wait until the verylastsecond, I’ll end up having to leave my job with no notice, which I am not willing to do (and which would actually be terrible for the school, since my school works closely with my workplace). But if that is how it needs to happen, I really need to find a different job where this won’t be an issue.
              I guess I just have to come to a decision about whether or not I can keep waiting or if I want to keep looking. It’s true that this is still my first choice, fortunately or unfortunately. I might send them an email on Monday reminding them that I accepted their offer with the contingency that I’d have a summer contract, and that if they can’t do that, I still need to decline the offer, and that I need to give my current employer notice.
              I just am hoping I didn’t make the wrong decision turning down those other offers I had!

              1. fposte*

                I think it’s okay to pin down what is meant by “summer contract,” too. Do they mean a two month-contract starting June 15, for instance?

    4. Michele*

      The last time I was job hunting, I was unemployed for two months. Then in one hour I got two offers. The issue was that I really wanted another job that had given me a verbal offer but nothing concrete. I called the place that gave me a verbal offer and explained that they were my first choice but that I had received two other offers that day, so if they were going to make me an offer, I needed something in writing by a certain time (48 hrs? I don’t remember). They emailed me an offer and had HR contact me with a start date by the end of the day. I had nothing to lose. I needed a job and wasn’t going to turn down the proverbial bird in the hand, although this time it was two in the hand and one in the bush.

  45. MB*

    I’m pretty sure I know the answer but I want to ask anyways.

    I applied for a full-time position in February. They updated the description two weeks ago, keeping the same responsibilities but using broad summaries instead of the detailed bullet points that were there before. It basically just made it shorter. Then last Friday they called to interview me Monday but didn’t yet know who I would be meeting with (from what I know of the company it’s common for them to not know who this position would be reporting to as there are about a dozen managers all with the same duties). I’m assuming it means nothing they altered the description and called at the last second. I guess I just need confirmation to not read too much into this (I’m underemployed and this is my first full-time job I have heard from at all in my 2 years hunting).

    1. Ama*

      I wouldn’t be too alarmed, it kind of sounds like this might be a newly created position and they haven’t quite worked out all the details (that would potentially explain the delay in response, too, if they decided to push back the hiring a bit). But I’d go in prepared to ask about the reporting structure and the history of this position, and be on the look out for any additional red flags.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      Nah, those don’t strike me as red flags, especially not the cosmetically altered job posting. Last minute interview is not great but not terrible either, I don’t think.

  46. Hot diggity dog*

    (I’m a fairly regular commenter but am on work computer…about work)
    Just: what is wrong with people!? How can they not fill out forms properly?
    This week I have sent several emails to prospective students about:
    no payment (seriously – do expect us to pay for it!?) – no payment means unless they send a cheque to us then the form is returned (requires signature)
    no ID with form
    no signature on form
    you say you have changed you details – well, what exactly?
    no number of old certificate
    no expiry date

    I think the best one was this guy who was just short of 5 years address history and when we queried it he said that he was travelling in various places in America and Europe so had no fixed address as he was “on a ship in the middle of the ocean with all my belongings in a container”.

    Sigh.
    the form requires 3 x ID – you have only given us 1 or 2

    1. hot diggity dog*

      Apologies for the messed up formatting there! Bleh. Almost home time though – hurrah!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      First, I hear you — I’ve dealt with forms where people spell their own names wrong on the regular. There can sometimes be an alarming lack of attention with something that is actually a potentially big deal.

      But, it sounds like you’re asking for a ton of very specific information. Are you sure that the instructions and infrastructure of the form are setting people up to give you what you want? Like, is there a checklist up front that clearly states what you need to continue? Is there a version of the form that people can look at ahead of time to gather the relevant info?

      I ask this because I’m constantly caught in email back and forth hell with one division within my company because they have a form that is super unclear with what they actually want. It seems every time I send them something (maybe once a month or so), despite filling in every blank on their form, there’s something — usually something new because I track my past mistakes! — that I’m missing. It’s SUPER frustrating.

      Also, what was the traveler supposed to put for that time in his address history? He literally didn’t have a set address for that time. I understand your frustration with incomplete data, but I have no idea what I would have given you in that case! Maybe you’re not asking the right questions to get the info you need.

  47. TheExchequer*

    I had an interview yesterday and it was strange, so I thought I’d come share it with you.

    I arrived for the interview at 7:30 as requested. I filled out a paper form with the standard “Have you been to prison? What was your High School name? Where have you worked before?” questions.

    And then I took an admin test. Which wouldn’t have been so strange, I suppose, if it hadn’t been on /paper/. It had things like “Copy these sentences. Do some math. Correct this grammar.” All before 8 in the morning. And in a room where I was unsupervised. It would’ve been easy to whip out my phone and “cheat”. (I didn’t, but I easily could have).

    After I was finished with the standard paper form and admin test, the interviewer finally deigned to arrive at 8.

    She was an older lady in a floral print blouse (something I personally would not have been caught dead in, but to each their own, right?). She did not apologize for being so late to our interview, but she did apologize for the late call back. Apparently, the last person they hired didn’t work out, due to having personal e-mail on the computer and texting with her fake nails in the bathroom. She said this while waving her hands in front of me. Her hands with fake nails.

    I apparently need to work on my poker face some more, because she said, “Oh, it’s okay. Mine are short!” Ohhhhkay then. I got so self-conscious about my nails (I do not and have never worn fake nails. I’m still training myself out of picking at them) that I hid them under the table. The clear *glass* table. Epic fail.

    In a kind of sweet and bizarre way, I liked her. So much so that the job I interviewed for is currently my second choice. I’m really not sure what that says about me. xD

    1. Xarcady*

      It sounds as if you were expected to arrive at 7:30, which is a bit early, I’ll admit. But I don’t see the interviewer as being late–looks as if it was planned that you would spend half an hour filling out forms and taking the test. We did that at my last company–the interview was set for a certain time, but the applicant needed to fill out a form and take an editing test before anyone spoke with them.

      What the interviewer was wearing has no bearing on anything.

      The two things that stand out to me are the paper test and the comments about the previous employee. Is the office technically backwards? Or maybe they just don’t have a computer available for the test? The last would be the case in some places I’ve worked–there just aren’t spare computers lying around, they are all in use. Or in busy parts of the office where concentrating on the tests would be difficult.

      And while the comments about the previous hire’s nails are odd, the interviewer was sending a clear message that they don’t tolerate checking personal email at work, or employees going in to the restrooms to text. That’s useful information to know.

      1. TheExchequer*

        It was odd because most positions will send me that kind of paperwork ahead of time in an e-mail. Paper forms at the interview are kind of unusual now. (Especially if they have my resume and/or have an applicant tracking system). And I’ve literally never seen a paper test like that before. If they have me do a test, it’s all on the computer.

        The stuff about culture was useful to know. I would’ve liked the opportunity to ask questions about it, but they didn’t give me one.

  48. cuppa*

    I have a question about resume wording:
    I want to add to my resume that I worked with the c-level admins at my organization to develop plans and procedures for a huge multi-year project that involved a number of different departments. I was essentially a part of the team that planned and coordinated it all. It was kind of a big deal because I was the only one at my level that was asked to work on this. However, I can’t really come up with a way to put this on my resume; “consulted with” or “assisted” downplays the role that I played, but I am having trouble coming up with a better way to say it. Any ideas?

    2. misspiggy*

      Coordinated cross-team initiative to…? Or if that’s misleading, how about Played key coordination role in cross-team teapot harmonisation initiative?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I am right there with you. It is absolutely infuriating on a daily basis in SO MANY WAYS.

      1. Sharon*

        Larger companies can be their own breed of bureaucratic nightmare, but at least all those levels between you and your wackadoo boss, colleagues, clients, etc mean the crazy gets spread a lot thinner, and they may have real policies in place to deal with problems, not just “if you don’t like it, there’s the door!”

    3. TheExchequer*

      Yeah, I have to agree with this.

      My manager was great when I started.

      Then the manager (the other part of the husband/wife team) started putting her oar in.

      It has been considerably less than awesome ever since.

      Multiple late commission checks and now multiple late paychecks.

      I’m grateful that they gave me experience when no one else would.

      But never again.

    4. TNTT*

      I support you in this. Someone here said “ain’t no crazy like small business crazy.”

    7. Vanity Project*

      I learned too late that the small business I worked for was just a vanity project– the owner’s husband’s six-figure salary meant that the owner didn’t actually NEED the business to make any money, so the company was more of a hobby than a career for her.

      So on top of all the usual small business crazy, it also became nearly impossible for me not to see my boss as just some clueless rich person who doesn’t know what it’s like to work for a living.

    8. afiendishthingy*

      been there. Worst boss I ever had, not to mention his 19 year old son who liked to imitate his dad and bark orders at me too. Yup, once was enough.

  50. Marie*

    I’m in this never ending saga of trying to go from a temp to a permanent employee at work. It’s been 13 months since I was promised this job, and in total I’ve been working here for 3 years.

    I work for a large university and jobs get posted every Friday in batches. I check the job board religiously every Friday morning to see if “my job” has been posted yet. Jobs need to be posted for a minimum of 10 business days before a hiring decision can be made. The hiring process can take anywhere from a month to 7 months. So far, I have not seen anyone get hired in less than a month from the date of posting, even when the employee was just being promoted and the job posting was a formality (such as in my case).

    I have been promised that everything would be resolved by June 1st (after also being promised by October 1st of last year, by February 1st, May 1st…), but the job has not been posted this week (and the postings already went up for other departments). It’s taking all my energy just not to lose it and start bawling at my desk at work and have a mental breakdown. The stress of it all has been affecting my mental health, physical health and my also my work ethic, as I have not been able to bring myself to do anything productive in 3 days. It does not help that my salaried, and permanent coworkers spend their entire day on reddit and facebook, take 2 hour lunches, leave early, come in late and just generally slack off because they can (and I’m the ONLY one that can’t). *Sigh*

    1. Oldblue*

      Is there any sort of policy how long a person can temp in a job before getting full pay? That’s how it is in some companies. I would ask HR.

      1. Marie*

        The collective agreement of the union for the support staff specifies that if someone is a temp for more than 5 months in a department where there are unionized workers, the person must be terminated and the hiring process for the temp position restarted. So I would not be doing myself any favours there, although I have considered going this route to be eligible for unemployment.

        I am currently part of a union that represents “temp staff” (I know, it’s weird), but they are completely useless and they know they’re useless. Their collective agreement has no provisions for this situation, as the temp staff used to be 100% student workers and they did not see the point of protecting full-time, long-term “temps” as there weren’t any. Temp status used to be only assigned for short-term work but the departments are using it to circumvent hiring freezes and budget cuts.

        HR also can’t help me. I’ve tried. They’re a bunch of monkeys with keyboards. They’ve screwed up my contract/pay/personnel file at least a dozen times in two years. It’s happened 5 times in a year that my day was delayed by two weeks, because they can’t get their act together. And to think they represent nearly 50000 employees….

        1. Marie*

          *my pay was delayed by two weeks. The haven’t delayed my day yet. That would be weird.

          1. Oldblue*

            hmmmm It sounds to me like the university is purposely doing this to avoid giving you benefits (I know, obvious, but anyway.)

            But being a temp for 3 years?! Come on.

            1. Marie*

              That’s exactly why they’re doing this. I’m Canadian and do not have any significant health issues so not having benefits through my employer is not the end of the world as it would be in the US (and I also have insurance through my boyfriend’s work) – my bigger issue is not having any vacation time or even a single sick day despite how long I’ve been here. Also, we’re in a university and we close down for holidays, including 2 weeks at Christmas. I’m the only hourly employee in my office so while everyone else is celebrating a day off I’m stressing out about how the huge loss in pay is going to affect my budget.

              There is also the question of job security – this is a public university so a university job is like a government job. Once someone is in, it’s impossible to get rid of them. But temps have no security, so people can hire and fire them as they please with no backlash and no oversight.

        2. Marie*

          And that’s 5,000 employees not 50,000 employees. I’m just extremely rattled by the situation, I can barely type a sentence.

    2. TheExchequer*

      I so much wish I could give you a hug and some cookies right now.

      But, darlin, I don’t think they’re going to give you a permanent job. I would start looking for other things. If the permanent job comes along, great! If not, maybe you’ll find something better in the mean time.

      1. Marie*

        I really believe this at times, but I have been cc’ed on so many e-mails with discussion about contracts, budgets, etc from all sorts of people in HR, Management (from both my departments and a sister department) about this position that I doubt they’re really playing this long of a con.

        Also, HR is really just THAT incompetent at our university. It took 1.5 years to replace our ED even though she gave 3 months notice (we’re a fundraising department of only about 5 people, our revenue plummeted from $6m to $3m in the time we were without a director, so their incompetence actually has costed the university millions of dollars). A coworker quit in September, gave 6 weeks notice, and it still took about 7 months to replace her.

        1. Ama*

          Honestly, when I was in academia our HR department was just as terrible and personnel decisions took forever, so it’s not beyond possibility that they are just total screw ups, but it sounds to me like you need an advocate, a manager level coworker (or higher) who will hold HR’s feet to the fire until they get things done. Maybe write up the entire timeline of this discussion, and point out to your manager how long you have been waiting for this to happen? I know a bunch of my bosses in academia were happy to continue kicking deadlines down the road until someone pointed out that we’d been at this discussion for X number of months — then all of a sudden it had to be done yesterday.

    3. Graciosa*

      I think a lot of the reason this is getting to you is that you are mentally committed to this position – even though this employer is not at all committed to you.

      You need to stop.

      Are you applying to other jobs? You need to be.

      Work on the assumption that they will NEVER convert you and proceed accordingly. If this turns out to be wrong, great – but do not stop looking for a better opportunity elsewhere because you’re clinging to the last shreds of hope.

      This kind of reminds me of Carrie Fisher’s character in “When Harry Meant Sally” who was endlessly waiting for her married lover to leave his wife. She kept finding evidence that he had no intention of changing and acting like it was news –

      “I don’t think he’s ever going to leave her.”

      “NOBODY thinks he’s ever going to leave her.”

      “You’re right, you’re right. I know you’re right.”

      I would love to read a follow up that you found a new job, and your current employer was so shocked that they countered with the offer you’ve been dreaming of but – you need to assume that they’re never going to hire you.

      1. Marie*

        I’m 23, with a liberal arts degree living in a province experiencing the highest unemployment rate in something like 30 years. We just posted an ad up for a job that pays about $2 above minimum wage and is very entry level (filing, photocopying, etc). A woman with 5+ years of experience in the field applied and it was given to her, even though it was really intended as a student job. Apparently she has been looking for work for over a year but can’t get anywhere. It’s rough right now in this city. I’m actually doing pretty well considering.

        Also, this is the only professional job I’ve ever had, and I haven’t been able to get very far without professional (non-personal) references. I’ve been job hunting for over a year now – 10-15 applications a week, and in total I’ve heard back from 7 employers, from which I’ve had two interviews that didn’t go anywhere. I’m stuck for now.

        1. Graciosa*

          I had mixed feelings about this – I was glad that you feel you’re doing pretty well considering (and you are) but not thrilled that you’re feeling stuck. I would encourage you to focus on whatever positives you can, rather than the “stuck” feeling. A sense of helplessness or desperation can actually hurt your ability to move forward (which is as horribly unfair as it is true) and I don’t want you to get to that point.

          2 interviews out of 500-750 applications doesn’t sound like a good hit rate. Are you feeling that you’ve hit the point of desperately trying to apply to anything that might be a possibility, or do you think these were really well-targeted? I’m inclined to suggest you should limit yourself to five applications a week – partly to get you off the treadmill and partly to help you force yourself to carefully select only the best opportunities each week and then spend more time carefully tailoring your application rather than churning something out.

          Please don’t take the suggestion as criticism – I completely understand that the job market is outside your control, and you don’t need to feel worse about anything at the moment. I’m only trying to find ways to help you improve your chances where you can and help manage your stress while you do it.

          1. Marie*

            The quality of the positions I’m applying to really ebbs and flows with how happy I am with my current job and how close I am to end of my current “contract”, which are related as I become frustrated every time I need to renew my temp status. When I’m really unhappy, I can apply to 20-30 jobs during a long weekend. When I’m neutral about my job, I’ll apply to maybe 1 or 2 a week., Often, they’re mostly low level jobs where I need to fill out an internet form and there isn’t even an option to attach a cover letter (often, they “generate” a resume based on your answers to their forms, blech), and I pretty much only get automated responses. It seems like this is the status quo for where I live for lower paying positions. The two interviews I attended were actually for pretty decent junior positions, and I would have been happy to work at either company but they ultimately went for older candidates. I’m not putting nearly as much effort as I would if I was unemployed, which is why I’m considering cutting the cord with my current job. But then again, I don’t want to kill my savings between jobs.

            1. Graciosa*

              You may do better rationing your applications, but really taking them seriously (even if it’s 2 a week instead of 5). You can still make a serious effort to find a job without binging on applications as an antidote to unhappiness – even if you have to find another outlet when that happens.

              Best wishes –

  51. Oldblue*

    Sorry I posted this in the wrong place at first.

    So here is a question about casual interviewers….

    I applied to a job advertised on a company website that didn’t have much description of the job. That may seem a little crazy, but its title was a type of job in my industry so it’s forgivable. Anyway, I got an interview, and when I wrote to confirm the interviewer, who would also be my supervisor, signed their first name. Does that mean I should call this person by their first name at the interview or should I stick to a title? I’ve done quite a lot of research on the company and they seem to have a similar atmosphere to a place I interned at, which was sort of casual. I don’t mean that I’d come to the interview in jeans and smack gum, but am I allowed to call this person by their first name?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would use Mr. Teapot or Dr. Teapot until they said verbally “Please, call me Wakeen!”, since it could be that they like to sign emails with their first name, but nobody really calls them that to their face, if you see what I mean.

    2. Lynne*

      Personally I’d take it as a sign that they want you to call them by their first name. Now, if they used first & last, that’s different, but if I sign an email “-Lynne” and someone calls me Mrs. LastName, I’d think they were out of touch. The one time I heard someone in my company (an intern) refer to someone else as “Mrs. LastName” (a senior VP) everyone laughed. Including the SVP. We still joke about it, as it sounded ridiculous. Obviously I don’t know this company, but I’d take it as a sign that’s how they refer to themselves.

    3. TF*

      I tend to err on the side of formality, and I always consider signing first name only to be tacit permission to address a person by their first name. Same if they address you by your first name only (unless you’re a student and they’re a professor, or there’s some other highly formalized relationship).

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think you are. I work in a very first-name industry, and I’ve always called my interviewers by their first names. Usually, they introduce themselves: “Hi AvonLady, thanks for coming in, I’m Steve.” I do the same when I’m interviewing.

  52. Tired*

    In my performance evaluation this week, there were a few things that I think were unfair. I told my boss how I felt about them but I want to write something to put into my HR file. Any advice on this?

    1. Oldblue*

      I don’t know what state you live in or the laws on rebuttals in your personnel file, but in my state we are allowed to do this. It’s a simple act of asking to view your file with HR. I would also read up on the laws in your state about access to personnel files. They may make a big to-do about it, because a lot of employees don’t ask, much less know they are allowed to view it. This has happened to me, I wanted to view out of curiosity and to ease my anxiety that every little thing I did wrong was in there. They made a big deal out of it, but they let me view them.

        3. fposte*

          I’d just write something up and ask if this could be attached to the performance review.

          But I wouldn’t push hard on this. It’s quite likely no one will ever look at that performance review again or read your comments; they’re usually treated as discussion points rather than long-term records.

    2. some1*

      What’s the ultimate goal here? Getting the boss (or HR) to “correct” the eval, or just to document that you don’t agree with certain point?

      If it’s the latter, I can’t see why you wouldn’t be able to do this, but I wouldn’t expect any action to be taken on it, either.

    3. Graciosa*

      If you’re determined to do this, it is critical to be strictly factual and as matter of fact as possible.

      “Regarding D, my actual accuracy rate was 92% rather than 62%.”

      The smart thing to do would be to follow it up with, “Thank you for the positive feedback about A, B, and C, and I will work to address your concerns about E and F in the coming year by [taking specific action],” to make it apparent that you’re a reasonable person who takes feedback appropriately.

      If anything you’re disagreeing with would be a matter of judgment rather than something objectively measurable with numeric data, do not mention it.

      “My quality was not ‘marginal’ and my work is actually very good” sounds like someone who a) doesn’t have the skill or expertise to recognize the problem and b) refuses to accept coaching to improve. Do not create this record; it won’t help you.

      This is true even if your supervisor hates you and other people who submit your work as theirs get excellent evaluations (someone tested that once and had it happen). Your supervisor’s professional evaluation is going to be presumed correct, and you can’t win looking like you don’t understand that.

      If anything you want to mention would dispute something negative that is a matter of degree, do not argue that it wasn’t quite as bad as your supervisor believes – even with factual data. “I wasn’t ‘consistently late 3 days a week’ because there were a couple weeks when I was only late 2 days” does not help you. It looks like you don’t understand that being late is a problem.

      Finally, don’t imagine that anyone will pay positive attention to a note of a dispute regarding an evaluation. If anyone pays attention, it is overwhelmingly likely to be negative – which is why you have to be extraordinarily cautious in doing this. In nearly all cases, it’s better to let it go.

      Lest you think I’m completely unsympathetic – I once had a very bad evaluation from a supervisor who hated me. My advice stands – you aren’t going to win if you fight this (even if you have other managers on your side, as I did).

  53. Gene*

    Headed to Greenville, SC for a work conference next week. Shuttle picks me up WAY too early Monday morning for a 0600 flight, will be back home in the early morning hours on Saturday.

    And it will be a relaxing break. Away from the office, away from the house, by myself in a hotel room, maybe I’ll turn off my phone; I should do this more often.

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, I kind of like that hotel thing–cool, quiet room that somebody else will clean up. But I hear you on the early call annoyance. You’re not so much getting up early there as just not getting around to going to bed.

  54. cali_to_carolina*

    Laid off last week and I am 21 weeks pregnant. I’ve scoured the internet and Alison’s great advice for how to handle interviews. I have decided to wait until the offer phase to disclose, so now I just need to go on some interviews.

    My question is this: am I nuts for even trying? I’m in B2B marketing, so these jobs generally have revenue expectations tied to them, thus a 8 or 12 week maternity leave would be pretty impactful to an organization. I just don’t know what to expect here. Any success stories from folks who have successfully found a full time professional job more than halfway through a pregnancy?

    1. Anon E Mouse*

      You should absolutely try. I got a new, full time job while 7 months pregnant, and I stayed there until I was laid off a year later (I’m so sorry, by the way, that you were laid off. I’ve been there and it stinks!). I didn’t have a very long maternity leave, unfortunately, but it was worth the move. I was able to negotiate a higher salary and cut my commute time in half. I think you should give it a try and bring up maternity leave after you have accepted an offer.

    2. Dasha*

      Keep applying to regular full time but have you thought about maybe a temp or contract position? Hugs to you and good luck.

  55. KittyPride*

    Any tips for calming nerves pre-interview? This is my third interview this week, I’m exhausted, and this interview is at a very awesome place but doing a job that I only have sorta kinda experience in – project coordinating. I do it sometimes in my marketing position, and obviously if they’re bringing me in they think that’s a good start, but between being on edge all week and wanting out of my current job so bad (the company is toxic) I can’t seem to settle down and focus.

    2. Accountant*

      Personally, I stopped calling them “interviews” and started calling them “pleasant conversations with a new friend”. Yeah, it sounds dumb, but “interview” has a scary power dynamic thing in my mind, whereas if I think about it as just going in to talk to someone, that helps me be more calm.

    3. Mz. Puppie*

      There is a Ted talk that recommends that you find a private bathroom stall before your interview and hold a “power pose”, like Wonder Woman, for 2 minutes. It affects your physiology and also how other people perceive you. The talk was by Amy Cuddy.

      My secret weapon is a half a Xanax half an hour before the interview. Just enough to stop nervous fidgeting and yammering but not enough to dull my brain.

  56. msmanager*

    I posted last week about my former boss, with whom I had a poor relationship, coming to work at my current company as a senior manager.

    Well she is here. Her first day, during our staff meeting, she made a point of telling everyone I used to be her assistant. It was awkward. I had mentioned to my boss that we had worked together but she didn’t want details. This is a very drama-averse workplace, which is nice.

    By Wednesday another senior manager pulled her aside to tell her senior managers in this office are mentors not supervisors.

    So I figure I don’t need to do anything but keep my head down and do my work. She will sink or swim on her own!

    1. danr*

      If she has a review period, she’ll get the message or be gone. I’m betting on ‘gone’, since she’s already failed to see what the environment is.

  57. Coughing all the time*

    I’ve read some posts on here regarding how to deal with health issues or physical ailments at work – any thoughts on mine would be appreciated.

    I have a mild form of cystic fibrosis, a genetic lung disease. I’m very fortunate to almost never miss work for it, never have hospital stays (virtually unheard of in the CF world), and it certainly doesn’t impact my work in any way. What it does mean for me is I have a constant, annoying, cough. It’s usually a dry cough (not phlegmy or gross) but very, very persistent. Sometimes I have coughing fits where I literally have to leave the room.

    I’ve been told by some not to disclose my disease to employers for health insurance reasons, but now I’m married and under my husband’s insurance, so that’s no longer applicable for me. For a long time I didn’t tell people, just citing a cold , accepting cough drops from well intentioned people that I know will do nothing, etc.

    But it’s at the point now where I feel almost obligated to tell people at work (I’m in a semi-new position) because it’s so noticeable, and I’m really awkward about it. I’ve had a few bad reactions when people assume that it’s much more serious than it is – because it usually is. A quick Google search can tell you life expectancy of CF patients is 37 (I’m 30ish), so sometimes people are really alarmed. I feel uncomfortable receiving their unwarranted sympathy because I’m actually doing really well. On the other hand, I really, don’t want to get into the specifics of my disease, either, especially at work.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      In this case I think I would tell them but in a general way: “I have a chronic problem with my lungs that makes me cough a lot. It’s under control, and not contagious, but it won’t ever go away. I apologize for the noise!”

      That way, you don’t have people wondering if you are just stubbornly not getting medical treatment for bronchitis or something or are about to get them sick. But you won’t have people constantly thinking about your life expectancy.

      (Also, ACA compliant plans don’t allow you to be declined coverage because of pre-existing conditions, and the rates can’t be based on your health – only your age. Your husband’s advice may have been spot-on at some point, but it’s now moot for most (all?) group coverage)

      1. Anx*

        I have classes with someone who may have something related to CF (his daughter had it but he is at least in his 50s) and admittedly I was annoyed by his presence the first few days of classes because it is just an irritating noise. I was concerned that he was contagious for the few days of class, which made the cough much more irritating. It still can be difficult to ignore (this one is very phlegmy and accompanied by constant belabored breathing) and distracting, though.

    2. Tired*

      Your nearby coworkers who might be annoyed by the sound would react differently if they knew the cause. Also, I imagine you need to keep away from germy people? If so, telling them you have a lung condition and not getting into specifics could protect you from germs and from bad feelings.

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      I think Ashley’s advice is spot on. Let people know it’s a health condition that’s not contagious and under control, without getting into details of what the condition actually is.

      Also, semi-related, one of my favorite TV characters has CF (Emma from Bates Motel!).

    4. Jennifer*

      Maybe just say that you have a medical condition that causes the cough, but don’t say what? I’d probably be vague about what causes it, but plenty of things can cause a cough. Hell, I had a permacough from hell that made me straight up vomit a lot for over a year, and that was caused by nothing but a case of pneumonia. (If you want to use that example, be my guest.) Just say that you’re getting medical treatment for it, but it probably can’t really fix the cough and you’re doing the best you can to keep down the noise.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would go with what everyone else advises, which is to say you have a chronic lung condition. Don’t mention it by name, and I say that as someone from a medical family with some weirdly extensive medical knowledge– while I would try my absolute best to accept news like that in a neutral way (I work very hard on limiting my curiosity), inside I would be super concerned for just the reasons you mentioned.

    6. Coughing all the time*

      Thank you guys, great advice. Yes I didn’t mention it before so as not to blabber on and on, but it has been an issue with germaphobes and I want to be sensitive to that. Thanks again!

    7. Snoskred*

      Coughing all the time – I have a friend who has an allergy to something and it causes a cough – they aren’t quite sure what the allergy is yet, but when he did the Whole30, his cough went away, so it might be something like wheat or gluten or even dairy.

      They’re still working on figuring out what the cough is caused by, and it is taking some time to narrow it down.

      Maybe you could use this information – say your cough is an allergy to wheat but you love bread too much to stop eating it, so you’ve just accepted the cough. This also gives you some cover for times when it is not great (been eating a lot of bread, it is my kryptonite) and when it improves – (feeling a bit tired of bread at the moment).

      Anyway, I’m putting the story out there, if you want to borrow it for your own purposes. :)

      1. Keery (Like the County In Ireland)*

        My coworker’s allergy-induced asthma manifests as a cough too.

  58. Paige Turner*

    I just had a phone interview for a job that a friend referred me to. It’s an admin position but almost like a lower-level project manager job for a very small consulting firm that just got a government contract. I have a social science MA but not a lot of relevant job experience (finished the MA in 2011, have had a really rough time finding professional work) and I currently work two part-time retail jobs.
    The job itself isn’t super interesting to me, but it might have growth potential and I’d like to get a salaried position (fiance and I are looking to buy a house and I know salaried is better than hourly when it comes to mortgage approval). The main problem is that the pay they’ve quoted is really low for a job in the DC area that’s listed as somewhat above entry level- even with negotiating, I don’t think I could get over 33k. Granted, I’m super broke from years of underemployment, but would it be worth it in the long run to take a low-paying job that I’m not crazy about? Or should I hold out for a better position that may or may not come along?
    I know there isn’t a clear answer to this question, so just wondering if you all think that my hesitation about the salary is appropriate given my circumstances.

    1. Dawn*

      “even with negotiating, I don’t think I could get over 33k”

      Figure out what the appropriate salary would be, then go in and negotiate. Don’t sell yourself short even before you get there.

      With your work history, I’d say take the job even if the pay is below what you want, just to have it on your resume (as long as you’re sure you wouldn’t like hate every second there or whatever).

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Agreed – I don’t know how much of a pay cut this will be from what you’re making now but unfortunately you’re not going to get a higher level job in your field without working some dues paying jobs first. Good luck! I had to work very low-paying paraprofessional jobs in my field for a number of years to get the necessary experience for my current decent-paying professional job. It is really stressful being broke but hopefully it won’t be forever.

    2. AVP*

      I think I would take it, assuming that you can afford to sleep somewhere and eat food and pay back any debt with that salary without going insane. If you want to move up eventually, making that first move from retail to desk job is the hardest part and so critical.

  59. El Admin-er*

    I had a really average (internal) interview today. Anyone ever had a poor interview but still got the job?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’ve had interviews that I thought went poorly and still got the job … and the opposite – interviews I thought were fantastic, but I didn’t get the job.

    2. PL*

      I had one where it was obvious I didn’t have the necessary experience or skills with their software. I was called for a second interview, same thing. I got a third call saying that they would offer me the job, but a hiring freeze was just put in place. I guess they thought I was trainable or something.

    3. Marie*

      I’ve definitely walked out of interviews thinking “That was awful”, and got the job anyways. I’ve also had great interviews where I never heard back from them.
      Also, you probably already have an advantage by being an internal candidate.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I had an initial Skype screen once that went… OK. I had a hard time because my job at the time was super boring, with absolutely nothing to do, so when I was asked questions about it I had to give really vague answers. I thought I totally bombed it. Then I met with the partner in the local office and it was phenomenal. I have a feeling that my initial enthusiasm was “just OK” but my resume got me further in the process. I got that job.

  60. PL*

    My boss does not at all seem happy that her boss encouraged me to apply for a promotion after only 6 months of working here. She’s been in the same role for 10 years, and took 10 years to work her way up that. I guess my college degree is worth something after all! :)

  61. Sassy Intern*

    The admin may not know that you’re completely fine with telling people it’ll be a lactation room. I’d just give her a quick heads up, like, “I couldn’t help but overhear you speaking with Dorcas about the unused office. It’s fine with me if you tell people it’ll be my lactation room.” Or, alternatively, when Dorcas asks, pipe in and just say, “Oh, boss is going to let me use it as a lactation room when I get back.” If these conversations are happen right where you can hear why wouldn’t you just answer?

    Also a quiet room is a room commonly used for mothers and small children to go and if there’s a fussy baby. You can find them in public institutions like in a church or a museum.

  62. Midwest Reporter*

    I’ve been reading for years and last year, used Alison’s advice to re-work my resume while job searching. I went from no calls to three offers in about six weeks. So first of all, thanks for being awesome! I’ve been at my new job six months this week and it’s so nice to be out of the drama and doing what I enjoy again.
    I’m finally compelled to comment, though, to tell a little story about my old newspaper and a good friend and colleague who left a few months ago. This place had become incredibly dysfunctional — high loss of employees, new bosses refusing to hire enough staff, then cutting hours on top of it, a mother-daughter supervisory team that would get into shouting matches with each other in the office and lies from our publisher. I was so grateful to get out, even though it meant moving my family away from a beautiful destination-type town back to the Midwest, the region in which I grew up. My old employer is apparently going around telling people my friend was “relieved of her duties,” when she actually quit. She gave notice and they even tried to keep her on as a freelancer. People canceled their subscriptions when she quit, because she was the 9th employee (in a department of 12!) to quit in less than 18 months. Anyway, I just cannot believe these people, who are lying about why my friend left. Of course, we knew they were kind of horrible people, which is why I left and why she left. The good news is, she started a new job this week and so far, so good. The even better news, she won’t actually need to ever use those particular employees as a reference, because our old editor (whom they fired about two years ago, because he would push back against the publisher on matters of journalistic ethics) is a great reference. We were in a small community, she had bylines in the paper for more than a decade, so she’s well-known enough, too, that no one there will need to confirm her work dates or anything.

    As an aside about how difficult these people were by the time I left, my boss, who hugged me on my way out, later tried to convince my friend not to be my ride to the airport when we left. My old boss was trying to end an 8-year friendship because my boss was upset that I was leaving. My boss even revealed info about a raise they gave me last summer, in order to discredit me with my friend. (It was framed as, “You should know, we gave Midwest Reporter a $1 an hour raise to add these extra duties and sometimes she had you do those.” As it happened, my friend knew about the raise and we would often pick up each other’s side duties when we were busy chasing a story. Because we were reporters and our main duty was, you know, content for the paper.)

    1. Tovah*

      For example, I have been Tea Pot Manager at 4 different locations over the course of 10 years with explanations of tasks being relatively the same.

      1. BRR*

        Has it been with the same company or were you a teapot manager at 4 different companies?

        1. Fuzzy*

          Friend of Tovah’s chiming in.

          The jobs were with different companies –a good example of the kind of work would be substitute teaching. They were for different school, but the subjects taught and age ranges were the same.

          1. BRR*

            Ugh I have something similar. What I did is put the reoccurrent responsibilities of my position under my current employer. I left the same bullet off of other jobs even though I did the same thing there. I stretched to think what was unique. I’m not endorsing this as the best way, just saying what I did.

            1. Fuzzy*

              Can you tell us how you formatted it? We were thinking:

              Teapot Instructor
              Westeros 2005-2009
              Hogwarts 2010-2012
              Narnia 2012-2015
              –bullet
              –bullet
              –bullet

              or

              Teapot Instructor
              Westeros, Hogwarts, Narnia 2005-2015
              -bullet
              -bullet
              -bullet

              1. BRR*

                Mine sounds a little different. But if I was making a substitute teaching resume I would still do the traditional way. I know it can get hard when bullets overlap. My husband taught at two college doing the same thing almost. I would place most of the overlapping duties at the top position since they’re more likely to be seen. I’m open to better suggests, but to me if they’re separate employers they need to be listed separately.

                Teapot instructor
                Hogwarts 2010-present
                -bullets

                Teapot instructor
                Westeros 2008-2010
                -bullets

                Teapot instructor
                Narnia 2003-2008
                -bullets

          2. St Louis*

            Could you say something like “4th and 5th grade science, Name of School District”?

            I usually use “multiple locations (St. Louis, MO area)” on my resume. If an online form requires a single address, I use the one I worked at most recently.

    2. Joey*

      Listing that you worked at multiple locations isn’t important unless there was a difference in your functions.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Were you actually moving? Or was there a main branch you worked at and then often traveled to the other locations?

  64. Knits and Giggles*

    This is a question about a very niche career, but I figured I should give it a try…

    I want to move on from newspaper copy editing. Mainly, it’s because I don’t see any opportunities for advancement at my company, but it’s also because I’m tired of working nights, weekends and holidays – and most of all, I’m at a point in my life where I can’t deal with the low pay (and no raises for years).

    I have a bachelor’s in journalism from a decent school with an awful alumni network. I’ve been applying to various communications-related jobs in my area, but I’m not having any luck, as I feel I’ve pigeonholed myself as a copy editor. And while I see opportunities for medical/pharmaceutical copy editing, everyone requires several years of experience with the AMA Manual, and I can’t figure out how to earn that experience. Technical writing is another path suggested for people with journalism backgrounds, but again, I need experience. I’ll even sell my soul and go into PR – if they’d even give me a chance.

    I’ve been at this job for about a decade – I know Alison has said that some hiring managers frown upon long employment at the same company, but due to the lack of newspapers, this is customary for my industry (many of my colleagues have been at this company for at least 30 years, doing the same thing). My cover letter plays up the qualities that employers love – a wide breadth of knowledge, adaptability, accuracy and speed, meeting deadlines and being detail-oriented, and working independently and with a team. But I’m not getting responses. I also suspect some hiring managers may think I’m too expensive for them, based solely on my years of experience – never mind that journalism is notoriously low-paying, and the company reviews on Glassdoor confirm that.

    Lots of copy editors around the country have been laid off in recent years, but I can’t figure out what they ended up doing next. And I don’t have the money to go to grad school.

    Is it possible for me to change careers? Or will I be doing the same thing at the same place for the same piddly pay for the next 30 years (if the paper survives that long)?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I don’t want to share my email in a public space, but I might be able to help with the pharmaceutical copy editing. Just because they all say they want years of AMA style experience doesn’t mean the right agency won’t take a chance if you have strong editing skills all around. AMA ain’t THAT hard.

      Alison, would you be willing to pass on my email address to Knits and Giggles if I sent it to you and she sent you hers?

    2. former-copy editor*

      Where do you live? I did print copy editing for 7 years, and thought it would be end of me. Finally nudged my way to digital production work at a daily site, and i’m making nearly twice what my last salary was in print copy editing. If you’re anywhere near a major city, look to its digital news sites. THere’s life after print!

    3. ExJourno*

      My first job out of college was copy editing, and I thought I’d do that forever. I lasted 2.5 years.

      Do you have experience with an online CMS? Many copy editors are also responsible for posting content online, which is a marketable skill.

      I focused on getting as much digital experience as possible, both at the paper and in my free time. I used my personal website to blog about random stuff to practice/demonstrate my writing and built up a pretty solid social media following. I landed a job on the digital side of a newspaper and did that until they laid me off. Now I work in marketing.

      Have you been through all of AAM’s advice for sprucing up your resume? Focusing on achievements and customizing my resume to match job descriptions really helped me.

      I can’t imagine ever going back to newspapers, and my soul feels 100 percent intact here on “the dark side.” You can do this!

      1. Knits and Giggles*

        Thanks, guys!

        I have taken basic HTML and CSS classes on my own time, hoping that would help me move into our web division, but I’ve learned there are no opportunities for me there.

        I’m not comfortable being specific, but I’m in a major metropolitan area. I’ll look into joining the AAM LinkedIn group, but I’m paranoid that if I post, my employer will find out I’m looking for a new job. Right now I am at work and posting on my phone because I fear even reading AAM on my work computer. (Then again, my boss stealthily cruised by my desk during my downtime to say hi – with my phone open to a page that read “how to hide your job search on LinkedIn” in huge letters – so I guess I’m good as fired now.)

    4. NoTurnover*

      I certainly don’t blame you for wanting to move on–good luck! Copy editors really do develop a lot of transferable skills; it’s just a matter of finding an employer who recognizes that and doing whatever you can to build up your resume in the area you want to be in.

      In Chicago, the University of Chicago Graham School offers a medical writing and editing certificate that would give you a leg up in AMA style, if you want to go that route. There may be similar things in other places.

  65. S. Ninja*

    I had my interview and am now waiting on some results; I’m still applying for things, but I’m seriously nervous about inadvertently missing something important and am neurotically checking my email and phone.

  66. Marie*

    Aw man! I never get to the comments on time. :-(

    Any administrative assistants on here (past or present)? I’ve been in my position for almost a year now (admin assistant to the ED of a nonprofit) and I’m ready to move up. I have a degree, I’m in school to get a degree in a more technical field, but while I’m in school I want/need to work and I need a better paying job.

    Would anyone mind sharing what was your next move from this position?

    1. El Admin-er*

      I’ve posted above about an internal post I’ve interviewed for. The job title has ‘admin’ in it, but it’s much more specialised than the generic role I’m in now and the department (and company) is keen on CPD. If I don’t get it I’m planning on saying something along the lines of wanting to work closer with them anyway- perhaps you could do this with a department your interested in or a task you might work on already? If your manager is supportive then maybe speaking to them can help as well.

      1. Marie*

        Thanks for your comment.

        The department I’m interested in doesn’t exist. I work in a small human services nonprofit. I’m interested in data science and database management. We don’t even have a donor database. I’m also just passionate about technology in general. I don’t really have the tools or resources I need to do what I’d like to do but I guess my challenge is going to be to figure it out somehow and someway. I do not want to be an admin/executive assistant in 2 years.

    2. Cruciatus*

      No advice here, but I’ll be sure to check out other people’s thoughts! I’m an administrative assistant at a small nonprofit school and ready to just leave for a larger university system in my city working with students in some way. I’ve been at my employer over 4 years, and 2 years in this position and I feel like I’ll be stuck making $10.45/ hour for the rest of my life (Additionally, I have a Master’s degree in sociology). It’d be nice to read that it can eventually get better!

      1. Marie*

        Wow you have a master’s! There’s definitely something better out there for you. I hope you’re actively looking for opportunities where you can more effectively apply your skills. I know how tough it is with degrees in the humanities. My bachelor’s is in anthropology and it was so hard getting my foot in the door. Now I’m pursuing computer science.

        Thanks for your comment.

    3. Amber Rose*

      My current job doesn’t have a title (I tentatively call myself Document Control, which is basically admin work.) So I don’t know how useful my advice is, but it’s good to be vocal. Every opportunity I’ve ever had has come from going up to my boss/supervisor/coworker and saying “hey, that looks interesting. Can I help?”

      See, my current title is misleading for that reason. I am the document control department, which means a lot of filing, scanning and emailing. I’m also part of the marketing team, because I said I liked social media and took over that stuff, and offered to design some posters and mail outs. I’m also in training to take over the safety committee. Because I told the safety coordinator I’d love to help out, and she wants to quit in a couple years.

      Find a thing and shove your way in there. Use every new thing you can learn to springboard yourself onward.

    4. CollegeAdmin*

      I’m currently an administrative assistant at a college, and as of July, I’ll be moving to the IT department as a data analyst/trainer.

      How am I going from A to B? I started doing data analysis in my current role (pilot user for a new analytics program), found that I excelled at it, and enrolled in a master’s program. The head of IT just recruited me for the position, knowing that I still have 6-8 months left in my program.

      1. Marie*

        Interesting. I’m pursuing my second degree (undecided between a second bachelors or masters) in computer science. I’m particularly interested in data science and data management/analysis. Right now we don’t have any donor/volunteer management software and I’d really love to be involved in the implementation of that. I just don’t think it’s going to happen soon. In the mean time, I put together a database in Microsoft Access to help me manage some of the data I’ve collected, but it is in no way comprehensive and we definitely need all related data in the same place. It’s just very disorganized and it’s hard getting the tools and support you need at my org. I also feel like they don’t really take me seriously, which is super frustrating because it’s no secret that I’m in school studying computer science.

        Anyway, thanks for your comment

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I was an admin assistant / receptionist for four years. I loved the place I was working at, so it wasn’t bad at all. I also did some volunteer work for the tech department at my org, and they eventually offered me a tech position there (the Dir of Tech had to make a real push for it). Not saying that’s the only path or that that’d work for everyone, but that’s my one data point to offer.

      1. Marie*

        It’s interesting how a few of you have transitioned to a tech role because that’s what I’m trying to do. My org doesn’t have a technology department though. Maybe I can transition over to the development department (there’s only one person there at the moment though).

        Thanks for your comment.

    6. Calla*

      I agree with “Find a thing and shove your way in there. Use every new thing you can learn to springboard yourself onward.”

      Disclaimer: I haven’t moved “up” yet, but I have expressed interest in a new position that my boss said I would definitely be a top candidate for when the company has the money to create it (though I probably won’t stick around long enough for that…).

      But that came from finding one of my responsibilities and honing in on it. In my last job I ran reports on customer satisfaction, called out any trends when sending it to the execs, etc. This was not one of my initial duties but was given to me after they implemented new sat surveys (because I was familiar with the system). It was one of 100 duties, but I really liked it. My current job has NO ONE dealing with customer sat issues. So I expressed interest in that and something like that would be a good fit.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Sorry, I got nothing. I only moved from the front desk to a departmental admin position after a layoff. In most companies where I worked, if you didn’t have a specific degree, all I saw was sales or accounting.

  67. Dana*

    We have spaces designated as “mothers rooms” and I had no idea what that meant until recently. I’m assuming this office has a door? Is the door normally shut since it’s not really in use yet? Could just putting a sign on the door that says “Future Mothers Room for Tiffany” help clear up some of the awkwardness the admin is creating? I too would be even more curious about a “quiet room.”

  68. AnonToday*

    I am at the bitch-eating-crackers phase with a coworker and I don’t know how to fix it. Ever since I was hired about a year ago, I have felt that this person didn’t really like me personally. She avoids talking to me whenever possible, will walk faster to avoid being near me, and doesn’t make direct eye contact with me when she does talk to me – I’m honestly not sure why. At this point, she might be picking up on the fact that I don’t really like her either anymore. But that’s not the issue – we are always professionally polite to each other and get our work done. However, she also disagrees with everything I say in a meeting, never specifically mentioning me, sometimes in an undermining or outright disrespectful way. For example, today in a meeting I expressed that I had concerns about X and her next comment was about how it was silly for people to worry about X, but in a way that totally twisted what I had meant. It happens frequently, it feels like almost every time I say something. She’s obviously entitled to have her own opinion and it can be different than mine, but it’s hard to not feel like it’s a personal attack, like she’s disagreeing with me just to disagree with me.

    1. Colette*

      I suspect she’s damaging her own reputation here.

      One thing you could do on occasion is ask why. “Why do you think X won’t work?” “Have you considered Y?”

    2. Ama*

      You do not need resume paper!!!

      Actually the last several interviews I have had I submitted all my resumes electronically, and the interviewers had printed them out themselves on whatever standard stock was in their printer, so the chances are pretty small you’d even get the opportunity to give a nicely printed one to them.

    4. Skye*

      Thanks guys. It came up because my parents are wanting to be helpful (and are also advising going door-to-door*), and, well, they are not being as helpful as they think. :)

      *This is a very small town, so sometimes this is, indeed, the way to apply for some jobs here. Not for everywhere, but aside from the chain stores it’s a lot of super-small business that have almost zero online presence, if any.

      1. danr*

        If you do go directly to a business, have your resume printed out on plain paper and bring an electronic copy with you or offer to send one to the business. Most of the certainly have email, even if they don’t have a website.

      2. Anx*

        I know what you mean. I live in a rural city. I think the advise on this site and in the comments is excellent, but it can be tough to gauge how applicable it is here. Many jobs around here are huge employers using ATS, chains, or small, family run businesses that use paper applications probably.

        I guess that describes a lot of the US, but I often feel like this area is stuck in another era. It reminds me a lot of Pawnee.

    5. danr*

      No you don’t, but have your electronic resume ready to go in different formats… a Word doc (not docx), plain text and pdf.

    6. Brett*

      Please don’t use it. We have to photocopy all the resumes anyway and resume paper gets jammed!

  70. Ama*

    Anyone else being affected by the apparent telecommunications system failure in NYC today? It is really fun to find out you won’t have landline service all day ten minutes before you are scheduled to run a conference call for 40 people.

    Thankfully we managed to get through to our conference call service on someone’s cell phone, which we just passed around as we talked into it.

  71. louise*

    Panic Attacks At Work

    We have an hourly employee who is having frequent panic attacks, at least a couple every month, sometimes more. I know she is seeing a doctor and trying to address these, but she leaves work when they occur or when she feels one coming on.

    She had one yesterday and left after being at work for one hour. Again, this is happening at least twice/month since January. I want to be compassionate, but it is leaving the one other office person in a bind and she is not getting her work done.

    How do we handle this? Someone sobbing and unable to breathe at their desk is not any better than having her gone, so it’s not like I expect her to “power through it” like one could with a cold* or something. *shouldn’t, but could

    She already has a private office and can do her work behind closed doors, so I feel like that is a reasonable accommodation. There are definitely work triggers along with some personal life triggers that relate to the timing of the attacks. The work triggers are not going to change or improve anytime soon.

    She does not have a manager (our office staff is tiny–most people work out in the field, and she only reports to the owner who is also out in the field most of the time). When she needs to leave, she tells me in HR, but I basically just note whether she is taking the time unpaid or using PTO. I can suggest to the owner a way to handle this, but I have no ideas for him right now.

    Then to complicate it, the last few times feel like she takes advantage of this (except I also understand that when things are more stressful at work, a panic attack is more likely) and using this as an escape from work. This morning, she has arrived at work with a very different hair color which then made it feel like she took yesterday as a spa day…I want to believe the best and can think of a million reasons why that was a coincidence or might have been the best way to treat the way she was feeling, but on our end it feels like she’s not committed to getting through the hard days and wants to go do something else instead.

    Any ideas?

    1. Lo*

      Okay, so.. Panic Attacks SUCK.

      But anyways.

      I feel like the Alison-y answer to this is to focus in on her other work. Does she do her job well, and does she efficiently take care of her work that has gotten backed up when she is back from a day away? If she is a stellar employee then this may be a thing that you and others need to let her work through, if the business is able to allow for that. If she isn’t? Then you have other things you need to address anyways, and reconsider her time there anyways.

    2. Graciosa*

      Don’t forget that even assuming your small company is covered by the ADA, and even with reasonable accommodations, people need to be able to perform the essential functions of the job. Is she doing this? If not, you – or the owner – need to have the conversation with her about her failure to perform her essential job duties.

      Being sympathetic about panic attacks does not require you to accept a failure to perform essential functions. For example, if an actress were having panic attacks that required her to keep a cuddly kitten in her dressing room for comfort so she could perform, that would be fine. If her panic attacks prevent her from going on stage, she needs to find another line of work.

      I don’t know what the essential functions of the job are or whether her panic attacks are preventing her from fulfilling them, but you need to think about it and make a clear decision about what is and is not required in this position.

      If you think the problem is that the employee is abusing your trust and faking a panic attack to go out to a spa (rather than using a spa to de-stress after a panic attack) that’s a different problem – but figure out the essential functions issue first and move on from there.

    3. Anon for this answer*

      As a life-long panic disorder sufferer, I feel for both her and for you. You say there are work triggers that won’t change anytime soon. OK, if the trigger is present, and shutting herself in her private office won’t work, can she leave and work from home? Can the trigger events be done at some other time (without making other people’s jobs harder)? Or can you change her hours so she’s not there during the trigger events? I’m on her side to the extent that I spent a lot of time and money on therapy and medication to find something so I can function day to day. I’ve been very lucky in that I always worked places where I could leave during normal house for therapy. However, I also made it a point to find a way to get my job done, whether I came in early, left late, worked weekends or from home because it was my responsibility. But here’s the thing, at the end of the day, if she can’t do the job as it needs to be done, you need to let her go, and make it clear it’s because of her attendance. It’s not fair to the other office staff and frankly, if this job will always have these triggers, it’s not a good fit for her and she’s not a good fit for your company.

      Good luck, and keep us posted.

      1. BRR*

        These are great suggestions.

        If you don’t handle this employee, the other employee will leave. I think the owner needs to have a talk where he basically just asks, “how can we figure out how to get the work done?” Treading carefully of course. From my own research into ADA (not a lawyer) leaving sounds like it might not be a reasonable accommodation. People still have to be able to perform the core function of their job. Even if you fired her for attendance, it might be messy because the attendance is due to a medical condition. I would consult with an employment attorney possibly from the start.

    4. fposte*

      As Graciosa notes, even the ADA doesn’t require that you just accept everything; if she’ s unable to achieve the work you need, you don’t have to keep her. Anon below has some ideas about possible accommodations, but it’s okay to say that you’re willing to offer this accommodation (or not) but you can no longer let her take unpaid time off or allow her productivity to fall as low as it has.

      It sounds like you don’t have hire/fire authority, though, so you may also have to live with the possibility that the owner will shrug and accept the status quo.

    5. Us, Too*

      How’s her work? Is she getting it all done well? If so, I’d make absolutely no issue of this.

    6. Sunshine Brite*

      She’s hourly, but can she make up those hours some way? Like work flexibly somewhat? I know that’s been a big help for me to be able to work my 40 but flex enough were if my anxiety spikes I can go away and come back to it when I’m ready.

    7. No Name*

      I’ve had panic disorder for over 15 years so I know all about how horrible panic attacks are and how they affect work. How much do you know about panic attacks? I would say it would be worth googling to get a better sense of how panic attacks work. I’m going to give you a little of my background because I think it might help you understand what is going on and how to handle it.

      In my personal experience, after years of dealing with this, I can usually tell about 30 minutes before an attack that something is triggering my anxiety. From there I reach for my trusty Xanax which will stop that attack or lessen it to a place that I can function normally. The entire episode lasts 30 mins top. Worst case scenario I don’t have my trusty Xanax and I have to excuse myself and go to a private place for about 30 minutes. I can then continue working for the rest of the day, abeit a bit tired and out of sorts. At this point my productivity doesn’t really suffer because I know to work harder to compensate for those times. This is after years of therapy, medication and coping skills. I have only taken 2 days off work due to panic attacks — and both of those times I was having waves of panic every 15 mins for several hours. So maybe I’m biased, but I don’t see the need to go home for the entire day unless it is extremely severe — and 2 panic attacks a month are not severe.

      Now, just because she came in with a different hair color doesn’t automatically mean a spa day — drugstore hair color costs $10. That being said, if she is under the care of a decent psychiatrist they have many ways of treating panic attacks that allow someone to have a normal life (I am living proof).

      I would be inclined to document all the accommodations you have given her and maybe even let her work from home if feasible, just so you can say you have done all you can do. If you can institute a work from home situation it should be clearly communicated that you expect her to stay on top of deadlines and produce at an acceptable rate. Then document everything and if she is still under performing I would say you have done all you can do.

      My gut says two things are most likely here: 1) this individual is not receiving appropriate treatment for her condition or is not actively invested in solving the issues surrounding her triggers. Otherwise there should be an improvement over time. 2) This individual is indeed slacking/taking advantage of the situation because your office is not knowledgeable about how to handle the situation.

      I hope some of this helps.

    1. Cruciatus*

      Congrats! My boss would appreciate you because “cooking with gas” seems to be his favorite saying. Along with “bugger.” He is very British.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        LOL Yeah, I like that expression.

        When I first started, nearly 100% of the time I felt like was cooking over fire. But those days are way less than they used to be, and becoming less as time goes by.

    3. danr*

      Be careful… the next time you look up a couple of years may have gone by… :)=

  73. Sara The Event Planner*

    I’m having a rough week. My position is being relocated to my company’s corporate office across the country. I was asked if I was willing to relocate, and I said no. I’m now in full-fledged job hunt mode, someplace I was hoping not to be for a couple of years. My manager is being very compassionate and willing to work with me on a timeline for my transition, but it still just sucks. And, of course, my focus at work has all but gone out the window. Has anyone else been in the same boat? How did you deal?

    1. Anie*

      My office is relocating soon as well (though in the same state). While the next location hasn’t been picked, we’re already aware it’s going to be WAY out of the way for at least a couple people in the office.

      Our current office is in the center of Boston, and employees are basically spread out in a perfect circle around it. The office manager was tasked with taking a large map and marking where each employee lives to see where we could move without loosing a majority of staff. The office manager recently said to me, “Hey, you’d be willing to get a car in the near future, right?” Umm, NO. I live and work and shop in a downtown area because I can’t stand the local driving experience.

      I should–need to–look for a new job as I’ll obviously be losing this one, but the motivation to do, well, anything, is difficult.

      1. Sara The Event Planner*

        I 100% understand the lack of motivation — it’s so discouraging!

        1. FJ*

          Motivation is difficult for me too. I’m interested in a promotion within my company, but it seems like it would require a cross-country move. I’m currently remote, and want to stay where I am. My boss and directors are completely in favor having me in the new position working remotely, but HR wants it to be at the main location. I’m at a loss for what to do while my group’s director and HR fight it out over whether the position can be remote or not. It definitely is sucky and I can commiserate with you.

  74. starting out again*

    Hi, all! Hoping you can help me figure some issues with getting back to work after a long absence.

    I’ve been out of the workforce for about a decade now due to mental health problems, and I’m looking to ease my way back in. So I’m aiming sort of “low” in terms of the jobs I’m trying for (I don’t mean that to be as judgmental as it sounds; I just couldn’t think of a better way to put it). One of the jobs I’m interested in right now sounds, from the phrasing in the ad, like it’s intended for teenagers and college students, although it doesn’t say so explicitly. My questions are:

    1. How ridiculous am I going to look, as a 34-year-old with a college degree and a fair amount of (admittedly outdated) work experience, if I apply for this job?
    2. Should I/how can I address this in a cover letter?
    3. The application process doesn’t call for a resume but rather an actual application, which I usually take to mean they want all of your education, work experience, etc. Is this the case? I’d like to leave most of my experience off, as I feel it certainly won’t help and could likely hurt my chances.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You won’t look ridiculous, but they may just not hire you. Sometimes certain positions are specifically coded as internships for currently enrolled students, so you may not qualify, no matter how much they like you.

      I think addressing it in the cover letter you just want to say why you’re interested in the position and what you have to offer. Usually the why you’re interested is just a blip at the top, but you may want to give a little more explanation than usual.

    2. Nanc*

      Have you thought about temping? It will give you a chance to jump back in without having to worry about a long term commitment. If you’re able to take the one or two day jobs no one else seems to want your agency will love you! If you’re in a bigger city, there are usually specialized temp agencies so you could look for one in your area of interest and sign up there. Otherwise just sign up, take the placement tests and see what happens. Bonus, some temp agencies have skills workshops and tutorials so you can brush up on rusty skills or learn a bit about new computer programs.

  75. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    I’ve come to terms that I don’t have a job or job offer a week out from graduation. I’m almost excited at the fact of actually having some time off after 7 years, two degrees, and almost 10 years working. What would you recommend I do should I not have a job come August/September? I may have up to a month off after my current contract ends (and a new job beginning, should I get an offer this summer), and I want to enjoy my time off to the fullest.

    Also, I have an interview next week! Three hour drive, hoping my car doesn’t break down on the way there (bringing it in to the shop for a once over next week), but it’s on my day off. Really excited to get to explore the area before heading home afterwards. Mini day-long road trip/interview day!

  76. Nashira*

    (Now posted in the right place…)

    Somebody please put me out of my misery. I’ve been having an ulcerative colitis flare since February, and this week got put on a new med that frightens me. (irrationally – you have to be taking 3.5-5x higher dose to get the “gives you cancer” side effect.) I’m also on an emotional rollercoaster from only absorbing random doses of my psych meds. So what did I do?

    Randomly burst into tears while talking to my supervisor about how our remote manager is frustratingly clueless about conditions at our office. We both just ignored it but I wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out again. The thing with my manager is frustrating, as is being afraid to have coworkers find out how ill I am, since they’ll turn on me like sharks, but… Why did I have to get teary? Ahhhhhhh!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I always get teary. ALWAYS. I had my 3-month review with my boss (uh… 2 months late) yesterday and I was a weepy mess. My boss is awesome and has learned quickly that it’s just me, and I am considering my options on how to get around it, but in most cases, it’s not a big deal. A lot depends on your relationship with your supervisor and how he/she is as a person (my old boss used to get really weirded out), but if you cried in front of me about a frustrating situation, I would just chalk it up to frustration, hand you a tissue and continue.

      Good luck with your new meds! I hope they give you some relief soon!

  77. just a girl*

    What do in-house recruiters do when there are few or no vacancies in a company? And what do they do during hiring freezes that go a month or longer?

    Sometimes I see that within one company, there is only 1-2 vacancies, and the recruiters still take forever to respond to emails, if they do at all. I don’t understand this. As a professional, I can’t stand not getting back to people, even with something like “The hiring manager is still in the decision-making process”.

    1. Joey*

      They might work on tracking turnover, RIFs, working with temp companies to find temps, assist with exec recruitment. Tons of stuff

    1. CheeryO*

      One of my best friends is an archaeologist; it’s a kinda weird field. She’s had TONS of positions in various digs over the last few years, and the work can last weeks or months or longer. It’s hard to keep track of her, because she’s always hopping between job sites all over the world. I could totally imagine her finding a way to make an on-call, part-time position work. (From what I’ve heard, as long as you provide an archaeologist with beer, they’ll be happy.)

      1. AnonArch*

        Absolutely. I don’t drink for health reasons but I’m the exception haha and I absolutely miss my beer!

    2. JB (not in Houston)*

      Oh, I’ve heard stories from archaeologists about their awful jobs. I’m sure some are great, but many are not treated well at their jobs at all.

    3. Gene*

      This very much sounds like “We’re building this X and just dug up some human bones/evidence of occupation/shell midden” type of position. When we do treatment plant expansions, we have a contract with a company just for that eventuality.

    4. AnonArch*

      Hahahah you just made my day. I’m an archaeologist and I’ve been doing it since I was 15. Most jobs until you get your Master’s degree and meet Secretary of Interior standards (US) are on-call jobs concerning construction (urban archaeology). We have to clear areas before companies break ground (construction monitoring). Usually these things are 2-3 ten hour days, maybe 1-2 projects a month, so overall it ends up being part-time. It’s super common and usually what you do for the first 5 years of your career (especially those first couple of years out of your BA until you start to pull much longer contracts and maybe get your way into a company that can offer regular contract work).

    5. "The same thing you are."*

      The “environment industry” (for want of a better term) has been growing, and they tend to employ people with backgrounds in things like archeology, anthropology, biology, and other areas that I used to think limited one’s opportunities to academia or free-lance treasure-hunting in strange, foreign lands.

  79. matcha123*

    This will certainly get buried, but a lot of times I read through letters and think, “Dang. Americans are weak.”

    This is of course my personal opinion, but I want to tell people to suck it up, buttercup.
    I feel like there’s this weird push by many to have things exactly. how. I. like it. And they don’t want to put any effort into finding a middle ground. I was really tsking the letter earlier this week about the crowded office. So, it’s crowded, but then “grime on the floor”? Why don’t you sweep that up? Why work in filth to spite yourself?

    I don’t think people have to necessarily sweep the floors, go without a microwave (or have a microwave but no coffee maker) and other things like they do here across the Pacific, but, dang. The world is not going to end because someone heated up fish in the microwave.

    2. Joey*

      Just for the record many people do suck it up in the us. But you’re right we are in an era where people in the US are quickly offended. You see it everywhere- roadrage, politics, work, school, etc. Personally I think it a lot of it is perpetuated by our continued frustration with our elected officials and their inability to fix a lot of big problems like rising healthcare costs, equality for lgbt, and the increasing wage gaps between the rich and poor.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Joey wrote that people are frustrated by the inability of elected officials to fix problems like inequality. I think you read it too quickly :)

          1. Us, Too*

            He actually literally wrote “equality” instead of “inequality” but I think his meaning was pretty obvious, regardless.

    3. AVP*

      Well, we also don’t have nearly as many employment protections as workers in Canada or Europe do, so it’s easy to take the little quality of life things to heart. Particularly the many of us who are stressed by bigger issues we can’t control, as Joey said above – not having healthcare, stagnant wages, etc. You focus on the things you can change, like the microwave and the trash basket.

      1. Anx*

        I think this a big one!

        The littlest things make a huge difference when you make poverty wages. Having a small fridge and microwave means I can bring in lunch from home. The means I can afford to eat lunch! That’s a very, very big deal. Our tiny dorm fridge is mostly filled up with condiments and water bottles. There’s not enough room for everyone’s stuff, and surely my lunch is often the space hog, but it can be frustrating to see there’s no room for the lunch you brought it because someone is keeping their water cold (we have fountains).

        1. matcha123*

          I can understand frustration. At one of my old places, there were six people squeezed into a tiny room with papers and other things all over the floor and no space to move things. What was worse (for me) was that there was no coffee machine. But, I can’t really see myself asking if it’s “fair/legal” that there’s no coffee machine or if it’s “fair/legal” that I have to share a room with so many other people. It is what it is.

          My current office has no microwave and people who bring a lunch keep it by their desk and eat it at room temp. (No one brings microwavable meals because they aren’t really a thing in this country)
          I can understand the frustration, but for all the time I’ve lived in the US, I’ve never heard of a guarantee to not having to share a desk or something.

    4. Magda*

      Did you express these concerns directly to the letter-writer who bothered you? Otherwise, this comment seems a bit passive aggressive to me.

      1. matcha123*

        It’s not just one letter, but I don’t see it as passive-aggressive. I can’t participate in most threads due to a time difference and I’m really looking to jump into a thread and tell the OP I think their concerns are frivolous, which is why I saved my opinion for the work-related thread. I also think it’s representative of a way of thinking in the US that I never thought about until after I lived overseas.

    5. fposte*

      I think some of it depends on what irritates you, though. I mean, you were posting about a co-worker’s annoying Kleenex use not that long ago. Everybody’s got something.

      1. matcha123*

        True, but I think that used Kleenex with snot in it is a potentially larger (health) problem than whether or not the person two desks over talks loudly on the phone :)

        1. fposte*

          Objectively? No, it’s not, really. It’s just that it feels like a bigger thing because it’s irritating *you.* The person who can’t hear her work calls because of the local talker feels exactly the same way about her problem. It would have been just as valid to say “Suck it up, buttercup” to you. But you were annoyed enough to write about it, so people avoided dismissing your concern.

          And I think you’re coming from a fallacious place here anyway. America gets to have its own standards of what’s acceptable, and people get to question or object if it doesn’t. I don’t have to suck it up when I get bad car service just because there are places where people don’t have enough money to have a car at all; it doesn’t have to be a globally shared problem to be an acceptable problem.

    6. Natalie*

      “suck it up, buttercup.”

      Couldn’t the exact same thing apply to you, and your annoyance about this relatively minor problem?

      1. matcha123*

        Sure, it could.
        It’s a pattern I’ve noticed with a number of letter writers, and it’s something that I wouldn’t have noticed had I not worked overseas. At my previous workplace, mass emails were sent out reminding us to fold the toilet paper into triangles after we used the bathroom, since the bathroom is also used by customers; we were asked to wipe water from around the sink if there were drops after washing our hands; we were told to straighten tables that we askew after eating and we had to carry the large trash bags down to entrance floor for disposal.
        The building had janitors that would clean the bathrooms, but we were expected to maintain a higher level of cleanliness.

        Quite honestly I rolled my eyes at the emails, but did it anyways because even the CEO was doing it. These requests weren’t unique to my company, either. And I thought, “This would never go over in the US.” No, I’m not the janitor and I don’t want to do her job, but keeping the bathroom clean is something that requires the assistance of all that use it, not just the janitor. But, I digress.

    7. Marcela*

      The problem with this line of thought is that in my country, where people is forced to accept anything because in the end, you need money at any price, you end with a big city full of incredibly angry people. Angry people have health issues, treat other people horribly, drive like they want to die or kill. Even more, you end with people who do not respect the system thst mistreat them. They are right in feel this way, of course, but these situations tear the fabric of society, as they refuse to pay for certain services (such as public transportation) or taxes, which in turn have consequences in other areas, for example reducing the number of government improvement plans. It is not safe and wise for societies, in the long term, to ask their people to just suck it up, buttercup.

      1. matcha123*

        I agree that there is a delicate balance that we should consider. A little too much of either isn’t healthy. But, since we have to work with other people, we have to find that balance. If we could all work in bubbles or from home, there wouldn’t be issues about the fridge or cleaning. Where I am, I do think that people should be a bit more aggressive in pushing back on demands made on them as workers.

        If the workplace is fine in other ways, I don’t think that whether or not there is or isn’t a coffee maker or something is an issue that would push me over the edge. I’d do like the person that brought in their own and say, “Well. I’ve got my coffee, I’m set.”

        1. Marcela*

          Bu you don’t know if the presence of the coffee maker is the only problem the person writing here has. Many times the thing you can’t let go, is the only thing you think it’s possible to change. If there are health issues or lack of money, or you have a very busy family life and you are very tired, the coffee maker is just the “materialization” of that need of change. Other times, the issue is the main disturbing point in a happy life: it seems very normal to me that I would focus onto that.

          Besides we don’t know how important these issues are to the posters in their real life. Sometimes I’ve been very obsessed with a problem at work and talked only about that, but I’ve never stopped feeling very lucky about the rest of my life: it just looks like I’m losing sleep over the issue. My life didn’t stopped while I complained, nor my work suffered.

          Somehow I wonder if you’d tell somebody to suck it up, if we were told about her difficult situation, where money and health problems just got worst with the last straw, which could be the coffee maker issue. I’ve seen this before, I mean, because I live overseas, I travel a lot, we are childless, I don’t have to work outside home, some people has told me I don’t have a right to complain about anything. My life is good, so unless I have cancer or something like that, anything that happens to me is never going to be that bad as the things that happen to other people, so I have to suck it up, buttercup. It’s like the fact I’m happy denies me of all right to be bothered by something. The problem with that is they don’t know a thing about my real situation. Once I told one of my friends how difficult it was for me to get up early to work: I’m a night owl. She replied in a snotty tone how lucky I was I didn’t have to get up at 5:30 to take my children to school, so I could sleep as long as I wanted. Sure, she could think I was lucky, but the truth is I can’t conceive. That’s not luck in my book. She was thinking, as you seem to think, that I was just supposed to do whatever life required of me, quietly, because her life was in some senses more difficult. In the comparison certainly looks like she is doing a lot more and making a bigger effort. She never stopped to think if that was actually true or even if there was something else beyond the simple words. After many more of those comments, she is not my friend anymore.

          1. matcha123*

            You know, I understand what you mean. And I think it’s a waste of time to get into a “who’s life is worse” contest because there’s always someone who’s got it worse. And there’s no way to know someone’s life story on the internets.
            However, I have to suck it up a lot. And honestly, I don’t want to. But if I didn’t suck it up, I’d be out of a job, I wouldn’t have a place to live, etc. Even with things I think are totally unfair or illegal. In my experience, it’s been the people with the most opportunities who are the ones that complain the loudest. Those people wouldn’t want to work in those conditions, but they find the same conditions perfectly reasonable for others (who are not them) to work in.

            There’s nothing wrong with venting, but I think it’s strange to ask about the legality of, say, hiring someone internally over an external person who might have slightly better skills, or whether it’s legal that someone’s coworker gets to come in 30 minutes late every day. I mean, to an extent, a private business can do whatever it wants. Asking whether it’s legal or fair that all workers now have to wear purple polo shirts and high-five a Pikachu statue on the way into work, is for me, like, “whatever, just do it.”

            1. Marcela*

              Now I see what you mean. My father used to say “since life is not fair, why would you expect me to be fair?”. He tried to be, for the record, but he made clear to us that fairness wasn’t granted.

              About what you said about people not wanting to work in some circumstances, but considering them reasonable for others to work in. This is a very annoying matter for me, no, it’s way more than annoying but I can’t find the word now. My father worked turns of 12, 14 hours in supermarkets, he always had to be on call so for many years we only saw him in weekends, as he left before we woke up and arrived after we were put to sleep. So I’m very sensible to this selfishness of “I want to have free Sundays, but I want to go shopping (for leisure) so I want somebody working in the shops”, or the even sillier “if you don’t like it, find another job”. UGGHHH.

              On the subject of the “is this legal?”, I have to say that has always confused me. Maybe because in my home country almost everything is actually legal. Our system doesn’t protect workers, although we have a minimum salary, but in the real world, bosses can do pretty much whatever they want. Nobody can risk to complain because any investigation is super slow, retaliation is high and as you say, we need money to live. For me, Americans ask “is this legal?” because they feel there is a system behind that can and should protect them. They have been told their system is the best in the world and many believe foreigners come from countries where we are oppressed (no, I don’t), obviously they have legal rights to stop things they don’t like from happening, right? (No).

              I see now that we agree in many things :D

  80. Michelle*

    I have a question about applying to a federal job that is a grade higher than your current grade. Is it still worth applying, even if I don’t meet the time-in-grade requirements?

    1. Christy*

      I can’t imagine that it would be worth applying. Are they hiring at your grade level? Do you have the education to warrant the higher grade?

      I wouldn’t bother applying unless I had the education or the time in grade.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I agree. If you don’t meet TIG requirements or the education alternate, don’t bother because they probably can’t waive the requirements and enough people will apply for a govt job that they have no incentive to waive them.

    2. Malissa*

      related to this…how do you figure out what grade you are if you’re not in the system?

      1. The IT Manager*

        This is super tricky. If you aren’t in the system, you do not have a grade. You can figure out what grade you are equivalent to by looking at experience and educational requirements Not just education, though, because education by itself without experience says the GS-11 needs a PHD. Most GS-11s do not have a PHDs.

        It can depend on the agency. In my agency someone pointed out that GS-9 tends to be highest grade for people who manage only their own work. At GS-11 you officially supervise others or you manage unofficial teams like project teams.

        1. Malissa*

          Thanks! I was looking at a job listing that you could apply at the lower GS6-10 level or the higher GS11-15. I’m hoping that if it pans out they’ll actually classify me properly. Not that I’m actually expecting to hear from them. . .

  81. Lynne*

    My question is about making small talk with coworkers. I’m great at small talk with strangers and people I know somewhat, and know the rules – avoid controversial topics, blah blah, ask them about their lives. But with coworkers I’ve worked with for going on 4 years now, I’m not sure. I am going to be in the car with my boss for 6 hours on Monday and we have nothing in common. The last car ride we took (3 hours) was almost totally silent. I asked about her kids a little, she about what I had going on that weekend, that sort of thing, and then it fizzled out. For whatever reason, we just do not listen to the radio in the car. I am dreading this drive.

    FWIW I don’t really watch TV, don’t have kids, don’t go to movies, don’t like sports, and am non-conforming in enough ways that it just makes these sorts of things tough. No one gets excited about personal finance, queer or racial politics, and backyard chicken keeping the way I do. I legit try to pay attention to news topics I know my coworkers are interested in, going so far as to watch sports games (!) and read Vanity Fair (!) in order to have things to talk about. UGH, I just don’t know what else I can do here. Anyone have tips?

    1. Colette*

      I’d avoid the political topics, but I think you’re fine to talk (a little) about chicken keeping or personal finance, even if the person you’re talking to isn’t into that. I like hearing about things I’m not personally willing to devote time to – it’s fun to hear people talk about things they’re passionate about, even if that’s not how I spend my time.

      The key is to talk a little and pay attention for signs that the other person has lost interest – if they’re asking well thought-out questions, they’re probably enjoying the conversation. If they’re down to monosyllabic words (“uh huh”, “oh”, “really?”), it’s time to give them a chance to talk about something else.

    2. Anon E Mouse*

      I think personal finance and backyard chicken keeping would be fun topics, but those are interesting to me (and to you). You didn’t mention music – is there a way you could bring some music along and ask your boss to bring some, too, for the car ride? That way, if there is any weird silences, maybe you could play something and spark a conversation that way. If you have some CDs or an iPod you can bring, perhaps that will ease the tension a little. Radio isn’t always reliable; depending on where you’re driving, it could cut out. But I think having CDs might be something fun to try. Good luck!

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yeah, it sounds like you have boring co-workers, Lynne! I love talking about personal finance and politics (especially involving marginalized groups), and I’d love to learn about backyard chicken coops (my daughter has already started pushing for this!). But considering that we’re not likely to work together anytime soon, I was going to suggest what Anon E Mouse said, bring some music, or ask to put on music or NPR (or, depending on where you are, another non-political, non-sports talk radio station, like a local all-news station). Or a newspaper, if you can read in the car, and if you’re feeling social, maybe read some of the local-interest articles to your boss to discuss them.

        1. Anon E Mouse*

          Oh yeah – NPR is a good choice! If you have a podcast app, you could try Ask Me Another or Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me! They are both great quiz show games. I’ve even gotten my husband into those shows from listening to past episodes. Fresh Air is also really interesting with great interviews.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Or play a bunch of old Car Talk episodes! I could listen to them all day. We were so sad when Tom passed away. :’-(

        2. Lynne*

          oh man, if she’d listen to NPR I’d be all over it! NPR (at least where I live) is the exclusive domain of weirdo hippies (card carrying weirdo hippie here!) and would not be welcome. I think I’ll just have to insist on music somehow.

        3. Snoskred*

          The Cosmic Avenger, I have three words for you and your daughter.

          The Hencam Blog.

          The blog will tell you everything you could possibly need to know about chickens, and Terry has a few cameras there so you can watch her chooks and rabbit, as well. :)

          Just be aware, depending on the age of your daughter, she is totally truthful about all aspects of chicken keeping, including the difficult things like having to euthanase and doing necropsies – very occasionally she does post a necropsy but there is usually plenty of warning and it is intended to teach others how to do the same for their chooks.

          Keeping chickens is awesome but they do have a relatively short life compared to us, so making that short life as full of awesome as possible is very important. :)

    3. The IT Manager*

      Put on a earbuds and listen to an audiobook, podcasts, or music?

      If neither of you have stuff to talk about, she might be relieved to not have the pressure to talk and she can listen to whatever she wants through the car speakers. I think you might ask or make a comment about it before you do, “I hope you don’t mind if I listen to my audiobook while you drive.”

      If I were driving I would make you listen to my playlist of non-fiction podcasts once the conversation dried up. Since it does seem impolite to force someone to listen to an audiobook they won’t be able to finish. A drive that long is great really making progress through an audio book.

      1. Lynne*

        Good thinking re: music or “I hope you don’t mind if I read” or what have you. I’ve definitely tried to defer to her on topics but we’ve been working together long enough to know we’re both just being polite but have nothing in common. It was a huge victory recently when we could look at items in a recent catalog we got at work and find like 2 things we both liked. I’ll just bring some tunes or earbuds & a book. 6 hours is going to be unbearable if we’re just sitting awkwardly in silence.

      2. BRR*

        This would be my backup. If somebody started with headphones I would be pissed.

        Maybe ask if they enjoy audio books and ask if they would like to listen to one so you can get it ahead of time.

  82. Anon E Mouse*

    I am REALLY fed up with my job. Working from home should not be so stressful.

    I’ve had some performance issues I’ve been trying to remedy, and my boss just won’t let anything go that has already been (1) resolved and/or (2) addressed and is being worked on. He literally brings up issues – tiny issues – that happened a month ago in our phone conversations, and I really am reaching my breaking point. I end up crying over this job at least weekly, if not more than once per week, and it’s not worth the hassle anymore.

    I’ve been juggling a lot at work and also dealing with weekly calls with him saying my work has been poor despite me working to improve it. He says I don’t put in enough time (I’m salaried and aim for 42-43 hours/week, working during business hours and sometimes at night, but that’s apparently not the “magic number” that would keep him off of my back. However, I can’t really swing more than that amount with family obligations). In the same breath, he says maybe I should go part time and do some other aspect of our work other than what I’m doing now (content management). The weekly berating has given me so much anxiety to the point that I am in constant fear that I’m going to be fired every week. I wake up with fear every work day, and I’m sure that’s not helping my performance improve.

    At this point, I’m looking for other work. I took this job shortly after a layoff last summer, and it’s not working out. (You know it’s bad if you work remotely and are now considering a commute to get away from the toxic environment.) I’m not sure I’m a good fit for the role anymore, but he doesn’t seem to want to put me on anything else unless I go part time and do other projects. Going part time would be a financial burden for me, and I would pretty much need a second job to make up the income loss.

    TL;DR version: I’m unhappy with this situation and quitting appears to be the only option (but only after I find another job – I’ve read AAM long enough not to just walk out before I have something else lined up!). I don’t need my boss acting like I owe him for hiring me after being laid off and that I should devote every waking hour to this job; it’s not helping my mental health, and I’m not sure the relationship can be salvaged at this point. I’m just going to go about doing my best, improving my performance, and putting in as much time as I can while finding something else.

    I hate that I may leave after only being here 9-10 months, but it’s not worth the emotional burden at this point. The constant weekly berating and hinting at me working less when I can’t afford to is just too much now. I deserve better treatment, and I’m hoping to find it somewhere else.

    Thanks for listening to me vent. :)

    1. Dasha*

      I think if you have a strong work history then don’t worry about the 10 months thing. Also, sometimes employers are more understanding with layoffs. I mean hey, you have to eat- sometimes you just have to take a job.

      You’re on the right track, take a deep breath and do what’s best for you :)

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        Thank you, Dasha! I’m not sure how my work history will look since my last job lasted a year, then I was laid off. However, the two places I’m interviewing with Monday seem to understand and are eager to talk to me about positions at their companies. I’m in the marketing industry and some people job hop a lot, especially in my age group (I’m in my late 20’s). I’ve learned a lot in my current position and have even learned to navigate a whole new content management system, so hopefully it’ll be worth it to find something new for my own sanity (and maybe for my income level. I’m hoping to ask for a little more money than I make now to account for the commute and maybe a little extra to pay off debt quicker).

    2. Amtelope*

      The thing that jumps out at me as a sign that leaving is the right decision is the mismatch in terms of expectations about hours. There are a lot of workplaces where for exempt employees, 42-43 hours a week isn’t remotely enough to meet expectations — they’re looking for something more like 55-60 hours a week. If you can only work 40(-ish) hours a week, this boss may feel that you’re already working part-time, and shouldn’t be getting paid as a full-time employee.

      I totally understand not wanting to work those kinds of hours; I’m happy to be in a job where even as an exempt employee, I really do work 35-40 hours a week. But I don’t think you’re ever going to get on the same page as this boss about work hours, and I think that’s a good reason to leave even though you haven’t been there very long.

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        That’s how I’m feeling; I have a coworker that set the bar high and puts in 55 hour weeks. It’s not realistic for me to put in that amount with my family obligations. At most, I can do 45 hours/week but that is still not enough for him. Though I’m salaried, my contract says “at least 40 hours,” and I’ve done that amount regardless of illness, balancing a car problem where I was driving my husband to work at 5 a.m. with our toddler in tow (this lasted two weeks and was very exhausting), and other issues.

        The time I put in was not an issue until about end of Feb./beginning of March, and then he started to ask why I “only” did around 40. I’ve been at this job since August 2014, so you would think it would have been communicated sooner. I don’t know if this can be fixed at this point.

        I’d be happy to put in more time if I could, or if it was clearly communicated what was expected, but between him asking for more time and practically threatening to find me a part time role in the same conversation, I really am at a loss of what to do outside of looking elsewhere.

  83. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Is there any reason these days that you can’t have spaces in file names? Our IT department asks that we use dashes or underscores instead of spaces. I remember when that was a thing, but that was like a decade ago, right? IT peeps, am I missing something?

    1. Rebecca*

      I remember in the old DOS days, I think we had 8 characters or numbers to name a file, IIRC, line MEMO1234.DOC.

      I use spaces all the time, and no one has said anything, nor have I had any problems with my files. We have a Windows network, Office 2010, etc. so I’m not sure this is a valid issue any longer.

      I am not an IT person…just a lowly user…

    2. The IT Manager*

      I think SharePoint doesn’t allow spaces and adds underscores for spaces in filenames when you upload them. It’s an automatic thing, but I noticed that the filename has are changed if I download the file again later.

      1. jag*

        Often spaces in file names became %20 or some other set of characters in URLs, which looks like mess and may cause versioning problems if the is downloaded.

        1. The IT Manager*

          Yes! Hate the %20 conversion. Looks so messy and makes it difficult to read.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      No technical reason, unless your files are on a web server, and then it’s annoying to reference files that have spaces in their names. Even if you’re doing a lot of command-line work, you can usually do tab completion to get the proper file name. For example, if the file name was

      Victoria Nonprofit (USA)

      You could type Victoria, hit Tab, and then the rest should fill in, unless there is also a file in the same folder called Victoria For-Profit (USA).

      Even then, typing backslashes to escape the spaces isn’t that big a deal:

      cp Victoria\ Nonprofit\ (USA) ~/Desktop/ is actually easier to type than cp Victoria_Nonprofit_(USA) ~/Desktop/, because you don’t have to hold down the Shift key as much for the first one.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        All that said, I work in tech support, and usually there’s a reason we ask people to do things. It may not be immediately obvious. It may not even make sense logically, but not everything in tech that’s supposed to make sense actually does make sense.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      When we used to use a server (as opposed to cloud storage), names without spaces just made it a ton easier to link directly to a file. If you had a file with a space, Outlook wouldn’t automatically create a hyperlink when you pasted the file path. Super small potatoes but it really did save a lot of time to make sure the file name was one long string.

      Of course there are obvious and easy work arounds for this too :)

    5. danr*

      Ask them “Why”? And “Because” is not an answer. If a program requires it, that’s a good explanation and one that should have been mentioned first.

    6. Sadsack*

      Someone where work told me that we have a naming convention that does not use spaces because sometimes if you try to copy the file name as a hyperlink, it may not work. I didn’t really understand this myself, but that’s what I was told.

    7. Marcela*

      I don’t think there is THE reason for not to use spaces. Nowadays they are characters as any other. The problem could be in the usage or reference of the file. For example, if the file is going to be linked, for a website, spaces are sometimes transformed into %20. That looks horrible and can complicate the readability of the link. You can see how terrible this is, sometimes in links copied from the wikipedia in languages other than English. Plus, I’ve seen -usually older- webservers getting all confused with the space, thinking the file name ends at the space. I also saw something like the latter with old mail clients, when uploading a file to attach.

      Other example where spaces can create a problems was given by Anonymous Educator. In Linux, a space is “transformed” into a \, which can be slow to type in a terminal. When you are trying to copy files or do any moving or organization, spaces are bothersome.

      I can tell you, though, that I enforced this very same rule because my users where not consistent with spaces. We had several cases where a file was supposedly lost or as they said, “the server deleted it”. One user used N space between two words, and then told another user “the file is called /big project/report 2010/chapter 5/bla bla”. Such a file didn’t exist, there was one or many spaces missing from the link the user sent, but they didn’t notice it (or care about) and complained my system was not trustable and files disappeared. Everything ended when I decided spaces were banned in file names and directories (and created a script renaming them, just in case somebody forgot). So you see, it wasn’t a technical problem with spaces, but an user one.

    8. "The same thing you are."*

      Yes, there’s a reason: some filesystems and some software do not – even today – handle spaces well. Whether you’re aware of it or not, there’s a good chance that some of your files may be moved about or processed by various programs that don’t do spaces. In short, using a dash or underscore or a period instead of a space is a “Least Common Denominator” approach. You are less likely to have problems / cause problems if you avoid spaces in names.

  84. No Notice :(*

    I work at a university and have had a grad student employee working for me for the past two months. He worked Wednesday, then emailed a rather formal resignation yesterday citing a family emergency, and saying he was quitting, and giving no notice. Several people in my office (myself included) had heard him on the phone in the past few days in conversations that sounded like he was interviewing for another job. I emailed him asking if he could come in for an exit interview, and he said he needed to leave the country for the family emergency.

    Should I, 1. email him and say, “You are a student, and this is a learning opportunity, so I am emailing you to let you know that quitting without giving notice is very unprofessional, etc., etc.” AND/OR 2. email his glowing references (who said things like “he’s like a son to me”) and say, “Bob quit without notice citing a family emergency, but many of us believe he has taken a new job. If there’s a family emergency, he may need your support. If he’s being dishonest, he may need your professional advice.”

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t email the references, nor would I use the wording you have in #1. You could say something like “You may not be aware, but the professional norm is to give 2 weeks notice. I realize that your family emergency means that you need to leave without giving the proper amount of notice this time, but I want to make sure you understand that leaving jobs without notice (other than in exceptional circumstances like this one) can hurt your professional reputation and affect your ability to get jobs in the future.”

      1. TCO*

        I’d use Colette’s wording. You could also make it clear that you’re not willing to be a reference in the future, but before punishing him you should really be more positive that he left for another job. Even if he was interviewing, couldn’t he have also had a family emergency at the same time?

        1. Calla*

          Yeah, I can imagine a few situations where he’s not lying. Maybe one of his parents has an illness, he’s been job searching hoping to find something closer to them and planned to give notice, then they took a turn for the worse and he needs to make it home ASAP. I also can’t imagine telling someone you have to leave the country if it’s not true, that’d easy to catch someone out on (unless he got a job in another country, I guess)? It’s entirely possible he is lying, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the case.

    2. Graciosa*

      Definitely no to both.

      You cannot raise the prospect of dishonesty without evidence, and you really don’t have any.

      I was trying to think about whether or not you can reach out to one (not all, one) reference who seemed especially close and cite only your deep concern for Bob – who would never have resigned without notice except under extraordinary circumstances – in light of this unprecedented family emergency, and ask if the close reference could see if there is anything you can do to help assist in these dire circumstances.

      You would feel pretty bad if the reference immediately said that Bob’s mother was critically injured in a plane crash, the news of which caused Bob’s father to have a heart attack that landed him in cardiac intensive care in a different city and no longer able to care for Bob’s disabled sibling.

      My only hesitation is concern about whether even that disclosure of information would be proper – anyone else have any thoughts?

      1. Colette*

        The only reason I could see to contact the reference would be to get the student in trouble. I mean, No Notice has the student’s contact info – they could offer help directly.

        If No Notice knew the reference personally, it would make sense to mention it – but otherwise, she’s a stranger giving someone negative information about someone they know. That’s not likely to go well.

    3. Dasha*

      I think just let this one go. Like the others said, you don’t really have any concrete evidence. If it is true, then you let it go. If it isn’t, you said he was a student, right? Then he still has time for some more growing up and some things are best learned the hard way.

    4. BRR*

      As much as I love revenge, I think you need to let this one go. Since he was an employee of the university stick a note in his file. I would possible email one more time and say “We prefer exit interviews for a,b,c, reasons. If you have time in the future to complete one we would appreciate it.” Add in something about hoping everything is alright.

      I would also be watching to see where he turns up. If it’s in another department in the university that might pose a follow up question (or I’m horribly unprofessional, not sure).

      1. No Notice :(*

        Thanks everyone for the feedback. My goal is not revenge, but there is a part of me that just really wants him to know he did not pull one over on me. I actually do have a sincere desire to point out how crappy this is, and I hope that he learns from it.

        But, I think you all are right, I’ll let this one go, let it go!

    5. Brett*

      It very easily could be both a family emergency that requires leaving the country _and_ interviewing for a job in the other country because the emergency means that he is going to be out of a job immediately.

    6. AnnieNonymous*

      I agree with others that you really have no evidence that Bob is lying. Even if he were, student positions don’t pay well, and it’s not reasonable to expect him to stay if another offer comes along.

      And forgive me, but if your first reaction to a sudden resignation is to 1) lash out at him, and 2) completely and deliberately damage Bob’s reputation, I wouldn’t be surprised that he bailed as soon as he could.

  85. Christy*

    My annoying cubicle neighbor got fired from her contractor! I wasn’t there last week (was out of town) and when I returned her stuff was all gone. I’ve pieced together the story but apparently it appeared that she wasn’t getting enough done, and the people she was supervising kept doing things for her. So her last day was April 30.

    I’m sad for her because she’s struggling financially (which I know because she talked on her phone all the time) but I’m happy for me because she was so loud and annoying, and it constantly felt like she was wasting the government’s money.

    1. Amber Rose*

      If she was struggling financially, then she should have been on the phone less and working more.

      There’s no meaning in feeling bad for people who knowingly put themselves in a position to fail. Hopefully she learns and works harder in her next position.

  86. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

    I’ll try to keep this short; there’s a lot of backstory and melodrama and at the moment I’m kind of overwhelmed with Feelings. I work at a smallish nonprofit. Due to some big changes that have taken place over the last six months, the needs of the organization are shifting—and the expectations for my position are shifting along with them, but away from what I’m good at and enjoy. They need me to excel at something I’m simply underprepared for and I feel like my job description is getting rewritten every day. Additional time/training to get me where I’d need to be is not going to happen. There’s some other bad stuff going on; my gut’s telling me my bosses are trying to get me to quit but if I don’t, they’ll manufacture a reason to fire me.
    So my plan is to get in touch with the staffing agency that placed me at a couple great temp gigs several years ago and get that process started. Once I hear back from them, I’d like to resign (with two weeks’ notice, of course) and move on with my life. I hate the thought of quitting without another job lined up; does reconnecting with this staffing agency “count”?
    Ugh. I hate that I’m looking at leaving after less than two years in my current position. I don’t want to look like a job hopper, but it’s more than just that. Really thought I’d found a place I’d be at for a long time. Care deeply about the mission, adore most of my coworkers, etc. Really shaken and demoralized right now.
    Thanks for any thoughts. You guys are a great resource.

    1. Evey Hammond*

      Oh man, that sounds so upsetting. :( Getting in touch with the staffing agency definitely counts, I’d say- did you have a good relationship with them when you worked for them?

      1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

        I think I did. The two positions they placed me at I learned a lot and feel like I departed on good terms. I’m kind of doubting all my perceptions of, like, everything right now so I’m also shivering and wondering What If The Staffing Agency Hates Me Too? …but that’s probably just jitters from bad-job-feelings spilling over. Whee!

        Thank you for the kind words, Evey Hammond!

    2. Bee*

      As someone who works in HR for a smallish nonprofit going through serious budget issues and management changes right now, I feel this deeply. I’m sorry, this sounds like it sucks, but it also sounds like now is a good time for you to get out. As my boss told me the other day, “I believe in this mission, but I can believe in it with a donation if I need to.” Caring about the mission is a wonderful reason to stay with a job, but if it’s the only reason, it’s probably time to get out.

      Only other thing I would say is, unless you have really solid reason to believe your bosses are trying to get you to quit, don’t jump to that conclusion. I’ve had at least three supervisors in the past two weeks in my office upset (and in one case, crying) because they are forced to make unfair demands of their staff because of unfair demands being placed on them. Whatever stresses your bosses are placing on you, it may not be intentional or malicious.

      1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

        Thank you! This is good to read. I don’t think my bosses are bad or nasty people at heart, and I know for sure that whatever pressure they’re putting on me is probably dwarfed by pressures on them. (Still going to make my break for it as soon as I can do so safely…)

    3. Joey*

      Personally it sounds like they’re doing everything they can to find you a job even if it’s not an ideal one.

  87. Liane*

    Saw the nearest library branch is hiring and am going to apply. Questions that haven’t occurred to me before:
    1-Now that I have a job as a writer and copy editor online, do I put that separately from my freelance work doing those things?
    2-Any specific wording I should use in the bullet points, or just follow AAM’s advice for any other job?
    3-On job applications, especially online, how to fill in Pay fields if they are required and I don’t have a set pay rate or it is unpaid? On paper, I have no problem putting “volunteer,” “by project,” or “varies” as appropriate.
    4-In my cover letter, I will be mentioning my Star Wars costuming, since I have done so many appearances at this and other library branches and the position is in children’s programming. I am considering whether or not to mention the name of the specific club, Rebel Legion, as I don’t want anyone skmming the letter to take the name out of context. In and out of the library system, locals only think of our larger sister organization, the 501st Legion, when they hear of Star Wars costumers. So I was thinking of just writing, “I am one of the Star Wars costumers who has appeared at the Summer Reading Clubs at your branch and the A, B and C libraries,” but using the actual club name only in an interview. Thoughts?

    1. Evey Hammond*

      1. Definitely put it in separately!

      3. Is there a way for you to figure out the average of what you tend to get paid and then add a note explaining that it depends on the project you’re working on? I’d do that if possible.

      4. I’d say that’s a good instinct- the person who reads your resume won’t necessarily know what you mean when you say “Rebel Legion” but “Star Wars costumer” is pretty hard to misunderstand! And if your interviewer doesn’t recognize the name you can always explain it, which you couldn’t really in a cover letter.

    2. danr*

      Keep your employed work and freelance work separate. Follow AAM’s advice on the bullet points. Don’t try to use field related jargon that you don’t know. If you mention the costuming and it was your club at that specific library, go ahead and mention it. And it will probably come up during the interview.

    3. Liane*

      Thanks, Evey & danr.
      1–Separate was my instinct too.
      2 & 3–It may not be possible to figure out what I get paid, as getting paid for writing is new for me, and my last paid editing position was very different from this one (medical transcription editing versus copy editing). But I did email the Managing Editor at the website to see if he had any suggestions for resumes & applications as he is a published author.
      4–Yes, I appeared with the 501st & Rebel Legions at this library & several others in the same library system and I am known at this branch–at least by sight–because it is down the street from us.
      Another reason for including my Star Wars costuming experiences is this job will involve event coordination, which is one of the things I do as a club officer.

    4. A Librarian*

      As a Children’s Librarian I am going to give you some pointers:

      Librarians are super organized and like synthesized information. Remember, we classify and organize information on a daily basis. I organize my resume into general headings specifying a skill set and back it up with bullets of my accomplishments and where I did such work. I have gotten 3 of my last library jobs with this format. It’s a waste of our time to hunt through your resume for pertinent information. Classify your skill sets into subject headings (we love our subject headings) and back it up with accomplishments.
      Example:
      Collection Development (materials ordering, vendor contracts)
      — Purchased 100% of all Spanish language materials for XYZ library
      — Updated 50% of the non-fiction collection at XYZ library in 2 years.

      Children’s Programming (Performer, Planning)
      — Performed as a Star Wars Costumer as part of Rebel Legion at over 50 libraries for children of a variety of ages.

      Then at the bottom of my resume I list job titles, locations and dates. This allows me to focus on my strengths and not highlight my weaknesses (like a short six month position). Works well for allowing you to blend your writing and freelancing as well.

      Do your best to put in a pay rate by calculating an average when you can and entering 0 if it was truly unpaid.

      In your cover letter I would not specifically state Star Wars but instead say something like “I have over 10 years experience as a children’s performer and have been to various libraries over the years. I know I can use my performer skills to (fill in appropriate job requirement) with excellence.” etc. Let your resume state more about it. Within the library community Librarians tend to be wary of children’s performers since we see good and bad ones. While yours sounds cool, you don’t want it to detract from your other professional qualities. It should be more of a “by the way I also am a Star Wars Costumer.”

      1. Liane*

        Oh, thanks, this is just what I need and just in time!
        One of the reasons I prefer to specify Star Wars costumer, is that both Rebel & 501st Legions have a very good reputation with the local librarians.

  88. Erin*

    So, I had a phone interview the other day for a position I really want. The interview seemed to go pretty well as the interviewer told me she wanted to e-mail me some questions to answer before the next round of interviews. She told me she would send them over by the end of the day (Wednesday) and I wrote my thank you note and sent her over writing samples she requested, but she never responded with the questions. I was hoping to get them yesterday since she said I would have the rest of the week to answer them, but still nothing.

    1. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

      Follow up by email or on the phone, she could have forgotten or thought she sent it (and left it in drafts – people have done that to me.) If I was her and I find out much later that you were waiting on the questions from me, I’d be embarassed I hadn’t sent them but also confused why you didn’t reach out to ask. Equally I could be expecting those answers from you, having believed I’d sent them.

      1. Erin*

        Thanks for the advice! I didn’t know if 2 days was being a little impatient because understandably this person has a very busy role and things always get pushed back. I didn’t want to come off as too pushy.

        1. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

          Don’t think it’s too pushy (although I guess it depends on how long they were giving you to respond.) But still, she said the end of Wednesday, and it’s now Friday… Maybe just reiterate thanks and say you haven’t yet received the questions, does she know when she’ll be able to get them to you, and is the deadline for the answers still the same. Many thanks etc… :)

  89. Anon for this one*

    I have a petty gripe to air. I interviewed for a job I was really excited about, and two days ago my contact in HR left me a voicemail to “follow up on the position.” That’s all she said. We spent the next 24 hours playing phone tag until we could finally speak – and then it was just so she could tell me they hired somebody else. I get that she probably just wanted to be as generous as possible about this, and had the best of intentions in wanting to deliver the news personally via phone, but I REALLY would have preferred an email. That’s how I usually receive such news, and it would have saved me 24 hours of trying to suppress my anxiety/excitement over a conversation that required minimal input from me.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I’ve had the same thing happen and it was super frustrating! Just send a damn email!

    3. TCO*

      I once had a seasonal retail job where they told us upfront that they wouldn’t be able to keep everyone on after the holidays ended. I wanted to stay on if possible. They told us they’d make their decisions by X date, and they called me and asked me to come in to meet with them.

      I drove 30 minutes, walked in all nervously… only to be told they hadn’t made their decisions yet.

      I did appreciate their commitment to telling us in-person, but I would have happily taken the “no news yet” announcement by phone or e-mail and waited to meet until there was actual news.

    5. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

      I’ve played phone tag only to reach the person and discover I hadn’t gotten the job. One person was nice as they gave me feedback (somewhat pointlessly) but still nice feedback, the other person was just calling to say they were sorry. EMAIL, unless you have great feedback or want to keep me in mind for other positions, otherwise it just stupidly gets my hopes up. #notbitter

  90. TCO*

    I do a lot of events, meetings, webinars, and conference calls at work. What’s your worst meeting-disaster story?

    This one worked out okay, but a few weeks ago we had a webinar for which most of our speakers and attendees were participating from various government agencies across the state. 30 minutes before the start, an attendee let us know that our state’s annual tornado-awareness day was that date and time, and it includes a tornado drill, sirens and all, that is mandatory for many government agencies to participate in.

    How could we be so unlucky as to plan our webinar over this ONE 15-minute event each year?

    We carried on with the webinar, warned participants up front (and let them know we’d record the webinar, so if they had to step away they could catch up later), and our presenters ignored the drill at their site. The sirens were going off right outside of our building, as well, but fortunately our recording equipment didn’t pick them up.

    Tell a story!

    1. Nanc*

      Not really meeting-related and not really a disaster, but many years ago I worked in Parks and Rec and our community center had a lovely outdoor amphitheater and pond which hosted lots of weddings. One lovely Saturday there was a wedding and just as the official said “Dearly beloved, we are gathered here together . . . ” the police station, located in a building just across the pond, set off a test of the city disaster signal. It gave the bride and groom a fit of the giggles but yikes, did we hear from the groom’s mother! After that we send the amphitheater schedule to the watch commander every week so they could adjust the testing schedule if needed (they were super nice about it, too!)

    2. Ama*

      I wrote a comment on this upthread, but today we were hosting a conference call with about 40 people — and ten minutes before the meeting landline service went down in our building (and apparently large parts of the city, as callers in other locations were also having trouble). We managed with cell phones, but it was not pleasant for a few minutes.

    3. Kai*

      I set up a rather complicated meeting a few years ago that included people from several different departments and one guy who was absolutely crucial–there was no point in having a meeting without him there. Guess whose name I forgot to include in the invite? Yep. Still cringing.

    4. Brett*

      Worst disaster was a real disaster. We planned a huge 3-day tech event for May 2013. Major politicians were supposed to be there, tech CEOS, all part of a 72-hour long hackathon. We were hoping for 200-300 of the top coders and designers in the region.

      And then the entire metro region was hit by over 20 tornadoes up to EF3 strength landing all weekend long throughout the duration of the event, causing significant damage across a 35 mi long and 1 mi wide path. 200k+ houses were without power and interstates were closed. We had less than 20 people show up for the event, which included the mayor speaking to a room that was over 90% empty.

    5. The IT Manager*

      I was in some training where one of the sites had a fire alarm go off, they evacuated, and left the phone unmuted. Took a bit to mute their line. We eventually just continued because we didn’t know how long they would be gone.

    6. Gene*

      Major international conference in San Francisco, during one of the headline talks October 17, 1989.

      ‘Nuff said.

    7. Dynamic Beige*

      The end of the drape line was in front of where the service people were coming out with the food. About half way through dinner, I looked up then poked the staging guy in the ribs… it was slowly falling. He ran and caught it in time, it would have taken down one of the screens as well. At some point, the power also went out to half the room, so he was crawling all over the place trying to fix it.

      Another job, they decided to have a live band as the final thing during lunch — a lunch that was after the session closed. One of the service people plugged in an industrial toaster backstage for our crew lunch and killed the power to all the lights and projectors. The band was playing in the dark to about 10 people.

      There are more… but it’s not been a fun week :(

  91. Bee*

    Can anyone talk to me about any differences they might be aware of in resume/CV convention between the US and the UK? I have a Londoner friend who requested help polishing her resume this weekend, and I am more than happy to do so, but I’m coming from a US perspective so I wasn’t sure if there was anything to be aware of.

    Any help would be much appreciated~ thanks!

    1. Graciosa*

      Alison’s advice is dead on for US resumes.

      As a hiring manager, I want them short (a second page after about ten years of work history, but never more than that), concise, and focused on accomplishments. I don’t care what your responsibilities were, I care about what you actually did and how that helped your employer. There are other things I look at – career progression, for example, or whether you show signs of job hopping – but those are the big ones.

      I can’t speak as authoritatively about UK conventions, but I suspect they may have some similarity to European ones with respect to CVs. My hiring in that region always produces CVs that read like someone’s life history – which is understandable considering the meaning of curriculum vitae – but it is still a culture shock. My U.S. brain keeps wondering if the word “concise” has any meaning in those parts of the world – they include *everything* and it is not unusual to receive a document several pages long, including hobbies, DOB, family information or even photos. We consolidate or even drop earlier work history to make room for the current stuff – CVs usually have it all (apparently forever!).

      If your friend is applying to a multi-national with U.S. hiring managers, I would try to tweak the CV format in a direction that would allow a hiring manager to at least *find* information about accomplishments and make sure that it is understood that we tend to stop reading long before we’ve covered all 5 ( or 7 or 10) pages so you need to make sure we’ll want to meet you after reading just one page or maybe two.

      I’m a little leery of suggesting too many drastic changes without knowing the target audience. There are cultural conventions to these things, and I’m sure a U.S. style resume would feel off to a hiring manager accustomed to longer CVs – basically the opposite of my reaction – but you do make allowances for it when hiring cross-culturally.

      Perhaps you should ask your friend very specifically what kind of feedback is being requested? If the request is about flow or formatting, deal with that – if the request is for help creating a U.S. style resume, that’s very different.

      1. Bee*

        Thank you, that’s the kind of thing I was wondering about. I haven’t seen her CV yet, but I had an inkling it might be different.

        She mostly just needs it updated, so I’ll try not to get too drastic with anything.

    2. Elkay*

      UK CVs typically list education (including exam results and subjects taken e.g. GCSEs: Maths (A), English Literature (A) etc. same for A-Levels and degree, you’d probably include your university name too. Work history in reverse chronological order. Other information may include volunteering/hobbies, driving licence status (although I think that’s probably out-dated now). That’s about it. Two pages is standard. UK shouldn’t include photos (I’ve only seen that on mainland European applications), marital status, children or age (basically anything that might be grounds for discrimination).

  92. Evey Hammond*

    Does anyone have any suggestions re: applying for public library jobs? I finished my MLIS a month ago and while the city I live in isn’t large, it does have a fair number of public branches that hire fairly regularly. However, because there’s also a libary school here, there’s a lot of competition for jobs- since starting school in 2013 I have probably applied to a job a week at least, without getting so much as a callback. My work experience isn’t entirely unrelated (lots of customer service, data management, administrative work, etc), and I volunteer at two different libraries currently to bulk up my resume, but it seems like I won’t get hired if I don’t have experience (and I won’t get experience if they don’t hire me- I’m sure you’ve all heard that country song before!). Is there more I could be doing to make myself seem like a desirable candidate for this kind of work?

    1. Kristine*

      Oh, Evey – Yes, I have suggestions, but no, I don’t have answers. It’s tough out there right now.

      I went back to school in mid-life and earned my MLIS, and five years later I am still a tech in a public library trying to break into a librarian position. Now, DON’T GET SCARED – this is what I suggest, for what it’s worth, coming from me:
      *Do you wish to write about librarianship, either for trade/scholarly publications, or for the general public? Many librarians don’t and they should.
      * Ask yourself: why do I want to work in a public library? Make sure it’s what you want before focusing on this area. Competition is keen for positions, esp if you cannot relocate.
      * You earned an MLIS, in Information Science as well as in Library Science. Are you interested in other jobs/disciplines in the IS area?
      * You are volunteering, which is good – can you do so at the very libraries at which you like to work? Are you visiting area public libraries and getting to know the staff? Do you ask them questions (when appropriate) about the job, LIS theory, or public programs?
      *What is your attitude? Do you think, “They should hire me because I want a job in this LIS area,” or is it, “I am cultivating skills and knowledge that make me stand out and become invaluable”?

      Unfortunately, I think the profession is changing, perhaps forever, and that there will be fewer public librarians in public libraries. You may have to think creatively about how to use your MLIS. I write, consult as an archivist, work in a special library, and index books outside of my full time job. You, like me, may have to face the fact that to have your ideal librarian position, you may have to create it.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Evey Hammond*

        These are such good suggestions!

        I hadn’t actually thought about writing about librarianship- I do have a blog, but it’s a very wee one (and I doubt anyone reads it other than my fiancee and a handful of lurkers). That’s definitely an avenue I should explore!

        There are some volunteer opportunities in the libraries where I’d like to work, but they are mainly concentrated in the school year (primarily literacy programs and homework help and that sort of thing). As September comes around I’m definitely going to try to get involved in that capacity. Other than that, I think there are year-long conversation classes at a few that require volunteers, I should look into them!

        Your point re: attitude is a good one- I think in this profession it’s really easy to get caught up in the “hire me, I’d be SO GOOD” mindset and forget that the field has changed so much and become so overloaded.

        (P.S.: Sorry if this message looks weird at all- I am using a very temperamental wireless keyboard.)

        1. Kristine*

          Your comment looks fine.

          I neglected to say – get your foot in the door however you can. I started on the lowest run, and at age 45 that was a little difficult (but helped with paying down my students loans!). Even then, I worked at a small library in a lovely area, and the librarian was very understanding, allowing me to answer some reference questions and do some digitization work.

          The way things are now, practically every library employee is going to be asked questions about preparing a resume, filling out online govt or employment forms, printing out letters, and uploading photos of grandchildren to Facebook, so be prepared for these. Also, a lot of it is wayfinding (“Where’s the restroom?” “Where’s the coffee shop/bookstore?” “Can I plug in my phone here?” etc.). Handling these with interest and patience reflects on you.

          Then there are the people who are afraid to approach the reference desk, uncertain of their question or thinking that it is “stupid.”Draw them out as much as possible. I also never sat behind the desk; I roamed the computer banks and tried to greet people as they entered – things like that also tamp down behavioral problems.

          Webinars help, esp techie ones. ALA doesn’t really, as someone noted below – except that I published an article about a program at the NYPL and was given the chance to implement a similar program at my library, despite being a library tech! We helped some patrons, then funding fell through. Them’s the breaks. I’m trying to find some way to implement this program in the community at large. Smaller library conferences, such as state-level orgs, are more practical.

          I hope I’ve created another librarian/writer! Muhahahah! *Rubs hands together* ;-)

        2. Snoskred*

          Evey Hammond – I’d read your blog if you linked to it here. I always click through to see peoples blogs when they link to them. :)

    2. fposte*

      Network like crazy. Are you going to ALA? If that’s too far and too pricy, are you going to your state library association conference? Where did you do your practicum–can you network through the people there? Did you have a professional-type GAship, and have you emphasized that?

      Are you absolutely restricted to just that city, by the way? You’ll have a better chance with a broader search.

      1. Evey Hammond*

        I have definitely been networking through my practicum- my practicum supervisor is one of my main references, in fact. I didn’t have a GAship as such, but I did contract my current position (grants assistant at a university research office) while still in school, and it’s tentatively library-adjacent, I’d say!

        I am definitely looking to relocate. I’ve been researching where in the country tends to have a) an extensive public library system and b) a lot of jobs posted on the regular, and have determined that Ottawa is probably my best bet (I’m Canadian) (obviously, who else would ever move to Ottawa). I’d want to move anyway, since the city I currently live in isn’t doing great economically, so relocating is not a problem for me.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t know if it’s similar in Canada, but grants experience in the US would be an excellent thing to emphasize.

    3. Joey*

      Sorry but librarianship is shrinking and transforming heavily. For one funding has been cut at lots of libraries and technology creates far fewer needs for librarians. And let’s face it many of the jobs that have been traditionally done by librarians can be done by non-MLS’s. Don’t lie to yourselves MLS’s.

      1. Evey Hammond*

        Well… yes. I know that. Literally every single person who’s actually pursued an MLIS degree knows that, largely because it’s all our professors talk about during orientation (to scare people off, maybe?). What I’m really looking for more than anything is what skills or assets I would need to transform WITH librarianship.

        1. Joey*

          Anything Of the Librarian specialties and it skills like web/app dev and maintenance. And of course it is always hard to fill management roles (few librarians like to be doing non-librarian stuff).

        2. Christy*

          Tech skills. I have an MLS and I’m now a SharePoint developer. My biggest takeaway from library school was my understanding of databases. Plus many of the older librarians are tech-averse. (I’m particularly thinking of my girlfriend’s academic library.)

    4. CLT*

      I work in a public library and more than half our staff of 25 has an MLS. When we hire, experience is not the only thing we look for, though it certainly is an asset. Get the most out of volunteering and practicum as you can. Any customer service experience is an asset. For us, corporate experience is an asset, as we have hired a number of people in the past few years with limited work experience, and we are finding we have to spend a LOT of time teaching people how work works (things like HR isn’t your counselor, why vacation can’t be taken in one-hour increments or only on Fridays, how feedback works). Management experience and experience supervising volunteers is a plus. Teaching is a plus.

      While you wait for the right job, join your local library association and actually get involved. Get yourself on a committee where you are working with other librarians and building a network. These fols might put in a good word for you if they are impressed with your work.

    5. danr*

      Don’t overlook the library publishers or support industry. If you have one of those companies close by try to get a job there. My old company, a library publisher, had a constant flow to and from libraries. The pay is generally on a par with the local libraries.

    6. cardiganed librarian*

      I just noticed that you’re in Canada. My vague, anecdote-based impression is that in contrast to the US, Canadian public librarians are often the best paid and therefore public libraries are among the hardest to break into. I worked at a corporate library in one of my co-op terms (UWO 2014 here!) and they joked there that public libraries are like the mob – the process of getting in is secretive, but once you’re in you’re in for life. I don’t know too many of my classmates who got in after library school – the majority started as pages way back and finally got their MLIS when they were ready to be promoted into a librarian position.

      That’s not to say it’s all doom and gloom! I know people who got in via other routes, including having strong teaching or technology skills. I don’t personally put too much faith in the method of starting as a page in a large system and working your way up. I have one friend who’s doing that and she’s been there as a near-minimum-wage employee for over a year – I worry that that way leads to being pigeon-holed as a very low-level employee who management cannot imagine in a professional role. The Sunday supervisor route seems a bit more promising, looking at my classmates, but working for a year or more for only four or five hours/week would drive me up the wall.

      That said, I got a job as a tech that doesn’t actually require too much by way of skills, but by showing enthusiasm for the job I am doing I’ve been given a lot of learning opportunities (I recently overheard another employee say that in three months I’ve learned to do things with SirsiDynex that techs who have been here for years don’t do). This is in a very small library, however, and I’m paid a living wage, which makes a big difference.

      1. cardiganed librarian*

        Just reread that, and when I say that I don’t know if starting as a page is a good track, I mean post-MLIS. Starting at 16 and staying through university is ideal, if only we could all have that foresight and luck. (I tried. I ended up working at Harvey’s instead, because the public library wouldn’t take me. ;)) I just mean that if you’re older and have held jobs that paid decently before, I wouldn’t go back to a $12/hour job in the hopes of being promoted to a $35/hour one quickly.

  93. Rebecca*

    I feel whiny. It’s Friday and I’m mentally exhausted, and all I can think about are the things at home that need to be done. We are on mandatory overtime. I don’t even want the extra money, I just want the hour a day back that’s being sucked out of my life. I don’t even get any more accomplished, I’m just at the office longer. I’d probably feel differently if doing a good job meant some sort of reward, like a raise, getting my paid holidays back that were taken away, or the PTO time that was reduced restored back to the original amount, but that’s not going to happen. As a bonus, my manager told me I shouldn’t expect anything further in terms of more money. My motivation is gone. And I hate the fact that 12 hours of my day is shot the moment I get up in the morning.

    Thanks for letting me vent. I’m mentally focused on finding a new job. I think of this as a long dentist appointment each day, and yes I have to sit there and go through some pain, but eventually I’ll get to go home and it will be over for a short time, until the next day. :(

  94. Tau*

    I had an interview last week that I think went really well, and then yesterday and today they contacted my references. Fingers crossed! There are a few things that are less than ideal about the job (location being the big one) but I’m excited about it because I clicked so well with the people there. I loved talking with them, I got the impression they were really enjoying talking with me, and we seemed to be on the same page about a lot of things.

    Speaking of, should I get an offer… what kind of delay to the start date is reasonable if you have to relocate for the job? Four weeks? Two? I’m in the UK, if that makes a difference.

    (And no worries – I’m not counting on this one, am in fact heading out for an interview at another place I’m quite excited about start of next week. It just does sound as if I’m a finalist and I’d rather not be blindsided if I do get the offer.)

    1. Kate P.*

      Well if they know you would have to relocate, four weeks is reasonable in many cases. Two weeks is often expected, whether you’re relocating or not, since its assumed that you’re giving notice at your other job. Add to that the question of finding a new house etc and you might as well ask for extra time. You could also broach the possibility of working remotely for a little bit while you move, if the job would allow that.

    2. katamia*

      Good luck!

      Is it a relocation within the UK, or to another country? Four weeks seems fairly reasonable for a relocation within the same country, although you should look at the housing market in the new place, and if it looks really bad then you might want to tack on an extra week or two to give yourself more time.

      I’ve been going through the interview process with a job in another country, so this has actually been on my mind a lot. I told them two months when they asked during one of the interviews (don’t have the job yet, but it’s looking good so I’ve been thinking about it), although tbh I feel like that might not be enough time for me to get everything for my visa ready. I didn’t realize just how long their interview process was (understandably long, since they recruit a lot of people from other countries and the visa process is more intense for this country than for some others, so I understand wanting to be sure), so I feel like I might need two months from the time when/if they tell me I’m actually hired rather than two months from the first interview date (which was like 2-3 weeks ago now, eep).

    3. TheLazyB*

      In the UK you can wait longer :) most people have to give at least 4 weeks notice so that’s usually your minimum. my sister asked for a start date 2 months from her job offer which was agreed, she had to relocate (it was Christmas too though) and I was offered a job mid-April and am not starting till June – and I’m a) not relocating and b) currently unemployed! (But finishing an open university course before I start.)

      Good luck with both!

  95. Kate P.*

    Good news update!

    I posted a couple weeks back about a toxic member of my management team who was actively trying to undermine our new boss. I kept my mouth shut like you all said, and just waited to see how things played out.

    As it happened…one of the reasons she was acting so weirdly was because she was stealing from the company (!!!) and was trying to keep anyone from figuring it out. She…didn’t do as well as she thought she would, and we actually caught her on the security cameras after something didn’t look right in the books. (Essentially she was stealing payroll by claiming overtime hours she never actually worked.)

    So…she’s out! Her manager was out of town on scheduled vacation so they had to wait a couple of days to handle it once we had proof, but she is being fired this afternoon and I am quite happily being trained to get promoted to her position in a few weeks. :)

    1. Dawn*

      Ha ha ha I think I remember this one! Dang was not expecting the twist of “fired for stealing” tho!

      Glad it all worked out, and may the promotion go through with no hitches and the new position be amazing!!!

  96. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

    So I got back from vacation recently, only to be told I was losing my job, which felt very out of the blue. I’m not entirely over it, but I think I’ve come out better for it, the management was a disaster, and each time I mention certain things to friends/family they’re pretty much flabergastered. It’s been about two weeks now.

    Still I’m hurt and I feel kind of root-less, can’t seem to get back into the routine of searching for jobs. I feel a bit lost without the 9-5 job, I’m waking up late but then constantly looking up jobs on websites, all day and have no idea what to apply for.

    I had, before I got the job I just lost, temped for while, but it drove me crazy and just as I stopped temping I found my previous job. It was in a media company, and a lot of my earlier experience is media related, straight after college, but after that I fell into admin based roles. I’m worried to step back into temping – as it would be admin based, and although it would fill space on my CV, also fill my time and give me some cash, it would also drown out the relevant stuff on there as well.

    I’d only just scraped myself out of admin into something more creative, I don’t want to fall back into that pit again. However I don’t want to stay out of work too long, I’ve had that happen before, so I’m caught between finding the ‘right’ job – builds on my skills, in a city I want to be in (a problem with last job), good company (also an issue) or finding a job that’s in my area that works for now. The previous job was only 6 months, so I’m worried how that looks as well.

    I’m just a big bundle of worry! Am I being silly? Is it OK to try and take things slow and find the best job for me? I think there were loads of red flags with the last one, but I so wanted to have a job and be done with temping that I took it… And now I want to be more careful, but also I want to get back to work…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Of course you’re not being silly, your feelings are your feelings, it’s all about how you act on them, and you seem to be handling them well. Just because you feel bad or even horrible doesn’t mean you’re not handling things well. You’re still doing what you need to do, doing some job searching. Heck, if you are financially solvent enough, can you take a few days and binge watch something on Netflix or go hiking every day until you feel more at peace with what happened? That might help you calm down and gain some perspective on how picky you want to be in your search.

      As someone else said in the Open Thread today, be as picky as you can (financially) afford to be! You want to spend as much time as you need to make sure that the next 2, 5, 10 years of your life or more are even moderately happier and more enjoyable. (Or at least less stressful.)

    3. Kristine*

      Please don’t be too hard on yourself! You got back in the saddle and started looking for jobs. That’s half the battle.

      Consider asking your local public librarian for help! Many libraries sponsor job search sessions in the computer lab and job coaching seminars, and it’s a reference question that comes up a lot. Oh yes, your librarian (or those of us trying to become one) understands more than you know about the frustrations of looking for a job, feeling stung and inadequate, feeling alone, etc.

      Can you be a consultant in your creative field? I think a lot of employers understand having to take a job to pay the bills, but if you can have a sideline it helps you professionally, and gives you short term goals and a way to express your abilities that give you a mental boost.

      Good luck!

    4. Snoskred*

      @ThatNotMeantToHappen – I think if you can temp while you look for that right job, that might be a good way to go.

      I’ve found when people around me are flabbergasted while I am not, that usually means I am too deep in the situation to see it for what it really is, and it also means it is time to get out of the situation. :)

  97. Persephone Mulberry*

    I had an interesting request this week, and I’m not sure whether I need to loop my manager in on it.

    I am a notary; my company paid for the certification (it comes in handy every couple months or so). The other day, the secretary for a very small law office in our building stopped into our lobby to ask if we had a notary on staff, saying that their usual person was out of the office and they needed something notarized ASAP. So the front desk called me.

    But it turns out the law office’s staff notary (I’m sure this is not his/her only role for them) is leaving (shhhhhh!), and what they actually wanted was to know if I would be willing to notarize stuff on an ongoing basis. Off the cuff, I said sure, no big deal – notarizing things takes all of two minutes – and gave her my card so that she had my direct line, rather than going through our front desk. Then I started thinking about it, and a couple of things come to mind: A) I’m not sure whether this is a temporary request while they fill that position or if they plan to permanently outsource it, since I’m right down the hall; and B) I have no idea what volume of work we’re talking about.

    If it’s once a week or so, probably no problem, but if it looks like it’s going to be a daily request or they get demanding (like “help, we need you to drop everything and notarize this so that the courier can pick it up in 10 minutes”), then I’ll probably have to tell them I can’t be their long term solution. In any case, since technically I have my notary certification as a benefit for my company, do you think I should say anything to my manager about this request?

    1. MT*

      I would def let your manager know. If this is a 10 minute a week thing, as a manager i would allow this to be a good neighbor and to make some other contacts in the building.

    4. Colette*

      Definitely say something.

      It’s not just about the potential for them to want you to do something in a panic or too often, it’s the fact that you’ll be doing work for another company (even if it’s unpaid) while being paid by your employer.

    5. Observer*

      A lot depends on the culture of your organization, of course, but in my workplace, I would probably shoot my manager a quick FYI style email. Just to let him know that the neighbors asked if I could periodically notarize stuff for them. It doesn’t seem like a big deal, and it’s neighborly so you agreed, but if it looks like it might start interfering with your work you’ll stop, of course.

    6. Cordelia Naismith*

      Maybe email the law office and clarify the points you’re concerned about first?

    7. some1*

      Definitely tell your manager. At my company, notaries aren’t supposed to notarize anything that isn’t for our client or business partner as a best practice.

    8. puddin*

      Get clarification on the volume of work and whether or not they expect it to be a temporary situation. Then talk to your boss about it.

      I would suggest offering your services outside of your normal work hours and for a fee. They can drop off the day’s paperwork, you do it on your own time, and charge per item. If I were your manager I really would not want you using work time and resources to be someone else’s notary. And you should never give away your skills for free (in a work setting).

      1. Observer*

        They can drop off the day’s paperwork, you do it on your own time, and charge per item

        No, you can’t. The notary is signing that she either knows the person who signed the paperwork, or saw credible evidence (ie two pieces of ID) that identified the signer of the paperwork.

        1. Persephone Mulberry*

          Correct, AND notaries (in my state at least) aren’t allowed to charge for services – ok, technically you can charge a dollar per document which amounts to about the same thing.

          1. puddin*

            Ahhh, well goes to show you what I know about notaries. I did have to pay for notary service once, must have not been in the same state.

        2. Cordelia Naismith*

          This. In the past, when I’ve needed to get something notarized, I had to sign it in front of the notary.

    9. Persephone Mulberry*

      Thanks everyone! I shot my manager a quick email. I’m 99% sure she’ll say it’s fine, but the fact that I felt weird about not saying anything should have been clue enough that it’s the right move!

  98. A Fan Fiction Reader*

    So I confessed to reading fan fiction in yesterday’s comments. And there’s a new Pride & Prejudice modern AU story that really makes me just want to tell the author to that she needs to read AAM. It’s not a badly written story, but the author is writing Darcy as a sexual harasser (although author took offence when someone told her that his actions were sexual harassment because sexual harassment is serious so the author doesn’t take negative feedback well) and Lizzie is also completely unprofessional. My thoughts as I struggled through a couple of chapters, “Alison and the AAM commenters would not approve.”

    I just hope that this author is a teenager who will eventually have her assumptions of what constitutes a professional office environment and sexual harassment corrected before she subjects her co-workers to what she imagines is appropriate behavior in an office environment.

    1. Anie*

      I love fan fiction. I remember being in college and loving the various story lines. But now, as a more aware adult, I keep coming across topics that would reaaaaally piss me off or be wildly inappropriate in the real world. It’s hard to turn that real life awareness “off.” Maybe it’s the same for fantasy or sci fi stories? The suspension of disbelief.

      But yeah, things like sexual harassment in the work place come up A LOT and it’s often romanticized.

    2. Anonyby*

      Yeah, I’ve been reading fanfics for about a decade and a half now… The kinds of writers who tend to write characters that way are VERY rarely the kind to be able to handle feedback. As soon as I realize I’m reading something by someone like that, I back-click.

      And sadly, there are plenty of adult authors out there (both fanfic and the more traditional forms of publishing) who are awful when it comes to sexual harrassment and/or workplace norms…

  99. Kate*

    I’m late but in case anybody’s still around…

    I’m an in house recruiter. I have two positions open in the same department– a Teapot Maker, and a Sr. Teapot Maker. There’s a candidate who applied to the Sr. Maker position. I phone screened her. She’s technically qualified for the Sr. level, but just not competitive against the other applicants. The manager agrees, and wants to interview her for the Maker position. (No second phone screen required.)

    What’s the best way to say, “Hey, I know you applied for Sr. Maker, but we want to consider you for Maker instead. Interested?”

    Thanks!

    1. CM*

      I have been on the receiving end of this situation and it hasn’t been a big deal to me. They’ve just said, “There’s another position we think you would be a better fit for”. I personally have been grateful for the honesty and another opportunity for me as opposed to no job at all.

      1. Dasha*

        Yes to what CM said and say it in a friendly and gentle way. If possible, I’d let her know the salary range too because that might have been why the candidate was applying for Sr. Teapot Maker.

        1. Kate*

          Good point. She quoted a relatively high desired salary (above our midpoint, which was on the job posting). But for various reasons, I don’t think she’d actually hold out for that high.

    2. jag*

      It was good talking with you – thanks for your interest in joining us. We have stronger candidates for the Sr. Teapot Maker position, so hope you would be open to another position, as Teapot Maker. If so, I’d like to schedule an in-person interview for you with so-and-so, the manager.”

    3. Graciosa*

      What you said wasn’t bad – the only tweak I would make would be to make it clear up front that she is no longer in the running for Senior Teapot Maker. Otherwise, she will wonder whether accepting an interview for the lesser position would harm her chances for the senior one.

      “We’ve reviewed your application for Sr. Maker, but we had a very competitive group of applicants and will not be moving you forward in the process for that position. However, we do have an opening for a Teapot Maker that we would like to interview you for. Are you interested in that position?”

      1. Kate*

        Good point about being clear Sr. Maker is no longer an option. I hadn’t thought of that. Thanks!

        1. BRR*

          I like Graciosa’s statement. Basically cover rejection for senior, we have regular, and ask if she’s interested. Asking if she’s interested is important.

    5. KarenT*

      “We’ve had really strong applicants for the Sr maker and won’t be moving you forward. However, we do feel you are a strong candidate for the maker position and would love to discuss it further with you if you’re interested”

  100. GlorifiedPlumber*

    Question for the group:

    How do I encourage a relatively junior female engineer for whom I am a lead (she has ~3.5 years XP) to inject herself into more leadership roles without undue prodding?

    She has REMARKABLE leadership and management skills! Our coworkers, our client, and our management loves her, she is officially a lead for a small section of our project, but she is reluctant to exercise these skills and grab the myriad of leadership opportunities that arise out of her bubble.

    We have a large overall project with many sub-projects, and as our project management is inept, new-ish mini leadership opportunities arise daily, and she would be a natural choice to full fill many of these leadership voids. There is a real need for someone to fill that void.

    However, unless I say, “Hey JuniorPlumber, here is a spear, I need you to go kill that project by being its leader!” she is content to participate as an individual contributor and let the PM leadership shit show continue or let other individual discipline engineers jump in.

    Sadly, I think I know the answer to this question, and it is not good. “Hey, does she have ANY incentive what-so-ever to take these leadership roles?” “Nope! She will always have a good job!”

    If she continues her current path she will be (rightfully because she has earned it) lauded for being an awesome engineer, her yearly raises will be 2-3% and her promotion raises (E1 -> E2, E2 -> E3) will be swift and 6-8%.

    If she wakes up and decides she wants to be CEO tomorrow and begins jumping on every leadership opportunity that presents itself, her yearly raises will be 2-3% and her promotion raises (E1 -> E2, E2 -> E3) will be swift and 6-8%. At least until she reaches the 15-20 year experience range.

    Anyways, I want to help… because our overall project strategy has been moving from a traditional design with 3 chiefs and 7 Indians for every 10 people setup to more of a “LEAN” design setup with only 8 people, 6 of which are chiefs and 2 are Indians. Project management is screaming for more chiefs.

    Naturally, we’re having a hard time getting enough chiefs, and our Indians don’t want to be chiefs. Sorry if the Indian/Chief metaphor is not PC. :(

    1. Mpls*

      Well, you can continue to assign her as lead on project pieces, but you can’t make her more ambitious than she wants to be. And she doesn’t really owe anyone the need to be ambitious. She may want to have a few more years experience under her belt before she starts pushing for it. About the most you can do is tell her you think she has potential and that you will continue to assign her as needed and whenever she wants to take on additional responsibility she can come to you for advice.

    2. Graciosa*

      Totally apart from incentives – does she *want* a leadership role? If you don’t know, ask her.

      There is a difference between coaching someone who isn’t aware of what’s required to advance – including raising your hand, and the fact that no, it’s not considered immodest if you nominate yourself in business – and pushing someone into a career path that they don’t want to pursue.

      Just because someone *can* do something well doesn’t mean that she *enjoys* it, or would choose to do it. It’s perfectly fine for people to choose to do a job well indefinitely without aspiring to do other work. Some people find their niche and are smart enough to appreciate it. Some people know what is required to advance, and simply don’t think it’s worth it.

      This is her life – ask her what she wants.

      If she wants to remain an individual contributor, the company could decide that it doesn’t want to employ her in that capacity if she’s unwilling to step up to more project management, but your description of the career path doesn’t make me think that’s the case. If it is, you have the candid conversation with her along those lines – but again, she doesn’t have to decide that doing what you want her to do is worth it.

      1. Jennifer*

        To paraphrase several of my managers: never feel bad because you don’t want to be a manager. Managers are perpetually stressed out shit magnets, and if she’s a woman in engineering, that’s going to be even worse for her. If it literally will only make her job worse emotionally and make no difference at all monetarily, why would she want to lead?

        1. GlorifiedPlumber*

          > If it literally will only make her job worse emotionally and make no difference at all monetarily, why would she want to lead?

          She wouldn’t. I think you hit the nail on the head.

          I think our process engineers all know these… we as a collective discipline have done a good job of dodging the PM bullet because we haven’t needed it to enjoy monetary and work related advancement.

          The PM cadre is full of electrical and structural engineers who had to get out to move up… and not one process or mechanical engineer (the bulk of our engineers).

          She’s smart… I think you’re right, she doesn’t jump in because there is no value to her life to doing so.

          I’m jealous.

      2. Ama*

        Yes, this. I have a dear friend who is a engineer and she’s happy to lead projects, but doesn’t want to go into management at all — and she gets a lot of pressure from her boss and boss’s boss because her employer prides themselves on getting women into management positions.

    3. Joey*

      Id say “if you’re interested you should volunteer more for leadership roles. You’ve done a great job so far, I think you’re the type of person we need.”

    4. AnnieNonymous*

      Aside from everyone else’s good points about whether your employee even wants more authority, I’m wondering if you’re presenting these opportunities as good things, when she might be viewing them as above her pay grade. Personally, I have a touch of ambition, but I would not volunteer for extra work with more responsibilities. It would have to come about through a promotion with a pay raise.

      Keep in mind that although you’re coming from a good place, you’re basically asking her to do way more work for absolutely no immediate reason. The prospect of more prestige down the line doesn’t mean much to a lot of us. You might not be able to get her to shift her focus without creating a whole new role for her, since for a lot of people, an increase in authority tends to come with a new job title.

  101. That Lib Tech*

    Kinda of disappointed in myself for not applying to a job that I thought I had a reasonable chance for, but I think it was for the best? I already put in a notice at work for short term disability while I recover from a surgery; and while I believe this position wouldnt start until the fall (uni), it wouldve made things awkward. Plus, it threw on a bunch more stress than I needed! I only spotted it within the last two days it was up! Lol.

    I know I will be job hunting after my surgery, and I’m looking forward to it! Just bummed that its so far away.

  102. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

    Sorry if this has come up twice, thought I posted but can’t see it.

    Recently lost my job in media, not coping great with getting back on the job search bandwagon. Especially as it took me maybe a year to find my last position, which lasted 6 months. And the number of interviews, applications etc, while temping as well was demanding and tiring.

    I’m dreading going back to it. I’m also worried about what I should apply for. The last job had interesting aspects (which I was more interested in than the main job components) but was also exceptionally poorly managed, in the middle of nowhere and poorly paid.

    I want to build on the experience I’ve gained, and stay within media, but there seem to be few jobs available. I also want to find a job that fits well for me – there were major red flags at the last role which I guess I ignored so I could get off the temping hamster wheel.

    I’m inbetween wanting a great job that fits my criteria, and just wanting to get back to work. It’s only been two weeks since I lost my job (and maybe a week since I officially lost it). How long is too long to hold out for a job that suits me?

    1. Colette*

      How long can you afford to hold out?

      Job hunting is not fun. It’s demoralizing, and hard, and thankless. It’s OK to not want to do it – but I do think you have to start. (I know people who took the summer off in 2002. It did not end well.)

      Do you have contacts you could reach out to for advice on how to find jobs you’d like?

      1. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

        I guess so. I guess I’m just embarrassed, and feel a bit stupid. There were so many red flags at this job, but they were so passive aggressive that they never told me directly they were unhappy with my work and that the consequences of that would be I’d lose my job.
        Haven’t told many friends yet either.
        Not sure how long I can hold out. Financially I’m ok. I’m just worried about having a big gap on there, I’ve had gaps before and it led me to take admin work for a long time – completely off course from what I’d previously been doing. So I’ve got gaps on my CV and long periods of work in unrelated areas, I finally got into where I vaguely wanted to be and it’s all gone up in smoke. I guess I need to get the anger/shock out of my system quickly and be proactive on getting out there again. (Feels like constantly pushing that rock up a hill only for it to roll all the way down again…) But thanks for listening! :)

        1. Colette*

          Can you do temp admin work while you look for something else? That would avoid the gap without committing you to a long-term job.

          Stuff like this happens, and it sounds like the company was dysfunctional. Stop and figure out what you could have done differently (if anything) so that you learn from it and move on to the next thing.

          Personally, I find it takes a while to be emotionally ready to find something else. Before I hit that point, I want to be job hunting, but I can’t do it effectively. Don’t put too much pressure on yourself about what you “should” be doing (as long as you’re doing something) – a lot of this is out of your control.

          1. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

            Thanks I think that’s part of the problem, the ”emotional readyness” I don’t want to get back into a toxic situation again, which is what I mean by finding the right fit. I was rushing last time because I was fed up of the situation, now I want to find something that could last a significant amount time. My only hesitation with putting admin temping on my CV is it sets me up for more admin work, which I wanted to move away from.
            But I’m thinking about it, when originally I thought it was a no-go thing, just because I feel a bit lost without something filling my 9-5, also the pay cheque…

    2. Jennifer*

      Honestly, I’d take anything at this point as long as it doesn’t seem worse than what I’ve been doing. I don’t think most of us can afford (literally) to be picky and look for just the right fit.

    3. puddin*

      How about taking a job for the right company – not necessarily looking to fill a specific role you have in mind? If money is not a huge concern at the moment you can take more of an entry level job or less than your experience could dictate but at the exact perfect company. If the last job was a poor fit due to company culture reasons, this might be an avenue to pursue.

      You would delve deep into a handful of carefully vetted companies to see where you might fit in through info interviews, recruiter meets, or ole fashioned networking. You possibly get your foot in the door and then move on to the more perfect role.

      Just one way to approach the job search…

    4. katamia*

      I do think you need to start looking right away, but I don’t think you should just apply for/take anything and everything. Doing that (I graduated from college juuuuuuuuuuuuust before the recession hit, so much of my job hunt over the years has been desperation-based) has made my resume worse, not better–I took things I was very poorly suited for and just didn’t do well in, and most of what I had didn’t pay enough to really be worth it. I understand wanting to stay in your field and if there are a lot of red flags, I don’t think you should take a job. But in the short term, if I were you I’d look for other fields where my skills would come in handy as well to tide me over while continuing to look for the media jobs you want.

      I agree with the temp admin work suggestion. If you like/can deal with kids and feel comfortable with enough subjects, you could also look into tutoring for a bit to tide yourself over, although if you’re in the US the school year is ending soon so there’ll be less demand (although there is still some demand over the summer). The hours won’t be full time, but the per-hour pay rate is (for me, anyway–I’m not sure what your salary history looks like and I won’t ask) much better than a lot of other jobs I’ve had. It also frees up time for job interviews because kids generally don’t get tutoring in the morning and early afternoon.

      1. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

        Yeah I probably graduated the same year as you – recession, the start of my career after grad I did customer-service related stuff, while I worked in film for free. But ultimately ‘work’ (unpaid) was drying up, and I was making no money so I went into admin and got stuck. I only feel like I’ve just got myself out and then I’m starting all over again. So admin temping is kind of bringing me up in hives, I just don’t think it’ll do me any favors, as people hiring want relevant experience, I feel like I’ll drown out my relevant experience with admin.

        I am definitely looking and I have applied for a job (I know that sounds pathetic but it felt like a big hurdle) and I’ve got others I’m applying for as well.
        I’m not planning to be too picky, I just don’t want to find myself back in this same position. Just feels like I’m constantly going backwards rather than forwards.

        1. katamia*

          Oof. I definitely know that feeling. Good luck with that. Not quite the same thing, but I’ve been in the process of changing fields for awhile so I understand not wanting to fall back into what you’ve done before.

          One of the biggest things that I found helped me when my job hunt was the most intense/dire was to celebrate the small victories, though, and applying for a job counts as a victory. I mean, I wasn’t popping open a bottle of champagne every time I sent a resume and cover letter somewhere, but it really does feel like a big hurdle, and it’s definitely not pathetic to take a moment and recognize that applying for a job is progress.

  103. Jillociraptor*

    Someone mentioned this in a comments thread earlier this week so I hope I’m not highjacking :) but I just benefited from some AAM Community scripts yesterday, so:

    What are some of your favorite professional scripts/responses/language you’ve learned from AAM?

    One of my favorites is “Are you able to do that?” when giving direction or critical feedback.

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      “Wow.”

      I’m still waiting to pull that one out – I had a great situation to have used it for but didn’t think of it at the time. (For those of you who may remember my post from several months ago, my supervisor tried to “pimp me out” to get her shredding done. It would have been such a perfect response instead of my deer-in-headlights look and mumbling deferrals.)

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Oh, me too. I have pretty good coworkers and higher ups, though, so the opportunity hasn’t presented itself in a professional context yet. (Plenty of personal contexts, though, having to spend more time with my nutty family leading up to my cousin’s wedding.)

        I have gotten plenty of use out of “Is there another way you’d prefer I handle that in the future?” Not even just in contexts where there’s been a conflict.

    2. Vanishing Girl*

      “Is there a different way you’d like me to handle this?”

      I finally remembered to ask my supervisor this after I spelled out my plan for a new project we’re testing out. I got a good response and felt very pleased I remembered to ask it.

    3. Ama*

      I’m saving that “I hope you’re not saying that to me because you think I agree with you,” for future reference. I don’t think it will come up at my current job, but at previous jobs (and with certain relatives of mine) it would have been far more useful than me standing in awkward silence and then changing the subject.

    4. CrazyCatLady*

      I’m waiting to use “Wow,” too… and just generally playing dumb with “I don’t understand,” when someone says something offensive.

    5. Cath in Canada*

      That’s my favourite, too, with the one Ama mentioned a close second.

      I also really like the ones along the lines of “I’ve mentioned this issue to the person directly, but the problem is persisting. How do you suggest I handle this?” (rather than “waaaah, coworker won’t stop annoying me!”) and “I’d hate for us to get into trouble over this” (rather than “you need to fix this or I’m going to the Department of Labour”)

    6. Jen RO*

      It’s funny – this is actually one of my least favorites! To me it sounds very patronizing and I could not see myself using it.

  104. Ella*

    What do you guys think about someone who constantly signs emails with “You’re welcome, Jane.” I mean, I did sign my email with “Thanks, Ella”, but for some reason it strikes me as odd and annoying, since all I am doing is asking this person for a normal work task. Has anyone else ever seen this? Am I crazy or would this annoy you too?

    1. Sadsack*

      I wouldn’t give it a second thought. She’s probably just being nice. I mean, you did write thank you, after all. You were probably just being polite, and so is she.

      1. Karowen*

        I don’t know, signing an email with “thanks” is just sort of standard office parlance – like “From” or “Sincerely” in written letters. I have a tendency to read into things, but this feels more passive aggressive than anything else to me. I don’t think that Ella can do anything about it, but it’d irk me.

    2. Apple Basket and Oranges*

      Would it annoy you if you were speaking directly to this person and they said “your’e welcome” pleasantly after you expressed thanks? If not then I say you are probably inserting some meaning and tone to these your’e welcomes when there really isn’t any.

      1. Ella*

        It’s not that I think she’s being rude, I just think it’s weird because I’ve never had another person sign an email that way. I’m sure she means well but it just seems odd/outside of business norms to type a whole email back and then say “you’re welcome.”

        1. fposte*

          I don’t see it as anything to be annoyed by, though. It’s just her courtesy signoff.

  105. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

    I’m super excited as I have three interviews for jobs next week and they are all positions that I think would be a good fit. I have two questions as I’ve never had multiple jobs to (potentially) choose from. What are some different factors when choosing between different opportunities? Obviously pay and benefits but are there things that people look. My job right now is really hectic and I don’t feel like I get the support I need so that will be something I’m looking for but if anyone has any suggestions, I’d love to hear them.

    I also have a volunteer opportunity that I’m committed to for the next year. Do I mention that any point during the interview? My work now is fine with letting me take off to do it but I’m not sure if other places will. I’ll still be in the non-profit field but I want to make sure it’s not an issue.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. TCO*

      I put a lot of emphasis on culture and my gut feeling (my gut has proven it can be trusted). I pay close attention to what the interview process reveals about the culture and how employees are treated.

      Other factors could be hours and schedule, commute, opportunities for advancement or new projects, funds/time for professional development, who your boss will be, office facilities and technology, stability of the organization, support resources (for instance, do you do your own data entry, mailing, etc. or does an admin do that? do you get an intern?), degree to which staff is friendly and social with each other (good or bad), name value of the organization when you’re looking for future jobs…

      Also, listen carefully to any less-common benefits they may mention. It probably doesn’t make sense to ask about them, but are there any cool perks that get mentioned? Maybe you get to count your lunch break as work time, so you’re only expected to be there 8 hours/day instead of 8.5. Maybe you get a sweet gym discount, or you can bring your dog to work, or they’ll pay for training and certifications. Maybe they subsidize parking or transit passes.

      Assuming it’s a pretty minor schedule interruption, don’t ask about the volunteer work until you get an offer. No reason to scare them off prematurely if you’re just asking to leave an hour early every Tuesday, for instance.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        Great ideas, thanks! I’m not happy where I am now so there are some things that I am looking for like work/life balance, work load during the holidays and things of that nature. It’s three interviews in one day so it will be easy to not forgot and compare afterwords I’m sure!

        1. TCO*

          It might actually be a little harder to keep track of specifics–three interviews in one day could be exhausting! I’d recommend taking notes, even if it’s just you recording a little verbal summary to yourself en route to the next interview. Good luck!

        2. TCO*

          Oh, and as a former volunteer coordinator, here are a few more specific things you might want to learn about each organization:

          – Who supervises the volunteers you recruit? Will that be you or someone else? (Do you want supervision experience and contact, or do you prefer the intake side of things?)
          – What recruitment resources are at your disposal? Does the organization have funds for network memberships, trainings, certifications, advertising, or websites like Volunteer Match? Do you have access to effective photos, videos, etc. of your agency’s work that will help with recruitment?
          – How are volunteers recruited? Do you need to be tech-savvy and skilled at email communications, or do you need to be a great public speaker who will spend many Saturdays recruiting at community events?
          – Who’s currently volunteering there (age, schedule, skillset)? Are those volunteers meeting the agency’s needs, or do you need to reach out to different volunteers? Who does the agency want as volunteers, and are their expectations realistic?
          – If change is needed, does the staff really support it? Do the volunteers? Many agencies end up with entrenched long-term volunteers who resist the change you might be directed to make. Be prepared to explain how you’d handle that, and look for signs that they expect you to perform miracles.
          – How does the rest of the staff demonstrate their support of the volunteer program?
          – Volunteer coordinator can often be a lonely job–there’s usually only one of you at a smaller organization. Does the leadership understand and embrace your role, and see the importance of giving you proper resources? Can your supervisor or others on staff provide helpful feedback and ideas for the program, or will you need to seek out that support externally?
          – Will you have any responsibility for soliciting, tracking, and organizing in-kind donations?

        3. TCO*

          One last thought!

          Some volunteer coordinators are housed in the fundraising and/or communications departments, whereas other coordinators are more aligned with the service-providing team. Asking about where your position fits on the org chart will make you sound smart and will also gather useful insight about who will be on your team and what their mindset/focus is.

          1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

            Thanks for the great ideas! Its always super helpful to have another view as I’m feeling a bit bogged down with my current job as I go into these interviews so I don’t want to not focus on important aspect of the job responsibilities. As a VC, I’ve been in both program and development departments so I have feelings about which part I want to work with. One job is volunteer specific but the other two are not so it will be interesting. I feel like I need a break from volunteers but I think I just really need a break for the way that my organization uses volunteers and treats their employees. Trying to keep that in mind for the one interview that is a volunteer coordinator position.

            I think three interviews in one day will be exhausting but since I had the day off, I figure it would be better as my job doesn’t know I’m looking.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I would pay a lot of attention to how you feel. Did you feel super uncomfortable in one interview, but you just really clicked with the 2nd interviewer? Did the vibe in the office feel good? You are right to be looking beyond pay and benefits. It’s often very, very worth it to exchange a bit less money for the feeling that you get to go to a job you love everyday.

      At some point, you need to think about whether you would turn down a job over keeping your volunteer commitment – that dictates when you bring it up. If it’s a total deal-breaker, then bring it up in the first interview (not the phone screen). If, bottom line, you need/want the job more than the volunteer gig, save it until later (after the offer, even), and pose it as something that would be nice, but isn’t essential.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        I’m struggling because I’m slated to serve as the president of a board and I would hate to lose that opportunity as I really enjoy it but I think it’s great to have on my resume. One of the positions I don think it would be an issue as the org. is directly related to the position but the other two positions are moving in a different direction so I’m just not sure. I’ve never had to ask for anything like this in previous jobs so it will be a good learning experience, if nothing else!

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          If it were me, I would not turn down a job for that. It would look fine on your resume, but it’s not a huge deal. As an ED, I can tell you that lots of board chairs are awesome, and lots of them do absolutely nothing but get in the way. You would be much better off with the right job where you can really excel than the volunteer experience. It certainly is a good thing -just not something I’d throw away a job offer for.

            1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

              Thank you both for a great perspective. I’m also over thinking way too much as two of the three are first interviews so I might not have to worry about how they feel about my volunteer commitments at all. I think right now being on this board is making my job tolerable so I’m feeling attached to it. Also as a volunteer coordinator, I struggle with leaving a volunteer commitment as I deal with that on a daily basis. Ugh, too much on my brain!

  106. ThatNotMeantToHappen*

    What are the best questions to ask to figure out whether a company’s environment is the best fit for you? (Inspired by puddin’s response to another of my posts.)

    1. Malissa*

      I like to ask what the interviewers like about the company. “What is the best thing about working here in your opinion?”
      If you get vague answers be vary wary. Usually you’ll get something like, “my coworkers are great” or “I love the flexibility.”

    2. puddin*

      Check out ‘the good jobs company’ online. It is a place to start…they are a firm that helps companies create/define culture, advertise it, and focus on it. I think they do a good job of defining cultural competencies.

      Once you know what you are looking for and have the vocabulary to define it, I would ask questions about those specifics. For example, “Can you tell me how the company creates an inclusive environment and attracts a diverse talent pool?” “How does the company implement sustainability projects?” “Describe the review process please, and tell me how it has impacted your role.” I like asking HOW because they can say they do all sorts of stuff, but the how question really gets to what is truly implemented.

  107. AnonForThis*

    Anyone have any good horror stories about dating coworkers? I’m on the precipice with this guy that works in a different department in my agency… it probably wouldn’t be too awkward if things ended badly, but I still kinda want to get talked out of it!

    2. Michelle*

      I dated a coworker once and it turned out to be a nightmare!!

      I was 22 and this guy was 27, divorced, had 3 young daughters and recently broke up with a girlfriend. He was definitely a bad choice but he was so handsome and charming. We started dating and about 3 months in, we decided to spend the night together. The next Monday at work, his ex-girlfriend and Mom (!) showed up at work during lunch hour to “have a talk with me”. They approached me in the parking lot as I was preparing go pick up a bite to eat. Basically, the ex said she had come to his house to apologize and make-up and she had “heard us”, so she went around the house looking in windows and “saw us” through a slit in the blinds. Before I could even register shock, Mom said that she loved the ex and that her son was “meant” to be with her and I needed to stop dating him. She also said I must be a real “loose woman” to sleep with man after only dating for 3 months. I was completely mortified and I’m sure other coworkers leaving for lunch probably heard at least part of this conversation. I literally could not respond. Fortunately, one coworker decided to stick around in the parking lot when they saw 2 women hanging around by my car and she came to the rescue. She walked up and said she was a manager and that they needed to leave the premises immediately or she would call the police.

      I saw the guy later that day at work and he looked very sheepish but did not approach me. He came by my apartment later to apologize and said he “had” to break up with me because his Mom was mad at him. He got back with ex-girlfriend and she started bringing him to work and picking him up!! She would always try to get in front of me or behind me as I was leaving for the day and act stupid. I walked out of the building behind the guy one day and she immediately lit into him as he was getting in the car about “being around HER!”. The next day when I left work, my car had been keyed. When I got to my apartment, someone had spray-painted “slut” across my door. I ended having to get a restraining order against the ex . Then his Mom started driving him to and from work. She would give me the evil eye everyday.

      2. Laurel Gray*

        Dude, I’m speechless. Downloading this story into my brain’s cloud in case I ever think of dating a coworker.

      3. Stephanie*

        Think about it this way, him dumping you saved you from her being your mother-in-law.

    3. Jules*

      Nancy got hired for a mid-level supervisor position and shortly thereafter started dating Bill, who had worked at the company for several years. Nancy frequently had to supervise Bill’s work, occasionally as the only supervisor on duty, but evidently nobody thought this was a problem. They both believed in airing their gripes about one another at work (“He never does X!” “She always insists that we do Y!”), which resulted in a general feeling among the other staff that they were a terrible couple and would break up quickly. Nope. Instead they moved in together, to a home that they could only afford together. Then the company had money problems and had to cut both hours and pay. They both got super stressed (understandable) and started legitimately fighting all the time at work. Then Mary got hired to work at the company and Bill started cheating on Nancy with Mary, while Mary was also simultaneously sleeping with Jim, another co-worker who was Bill’s very close friend. Nancy finds out about Bill and Mary, is understandably furious, decides to try and get revenge by sleeping with Jim. Jim wisely rebuffs her advances, but also reveals that he has been sleeping with Mary, which lands him in hot water with Bill and Mary. So basically, everyone is mad at everyone now. Jim and Bill gradually escalate from being passive-agressive towards one another to being agressive-agressive and narrowly avoid getting in a physical fight in the parking lot one night after work. Nancy starts retaliating against both Bill and Mary at work and talks about how awful they both are with anyone and everyone who will listen/is trapped and forced into listening. Oh, and Nancy and Bill were still living together until around the time of Bill and Jim’s almost-fight, because in addition to being poorly paid they were also both very bad at managing money.

      Bill and Mary go to the manager who supervises all of the employees in question, and the manager (very wisely) loops in the Big Boss. Big Boss has 1-on-1 meetings with Nancy, Bill, Mary, and Jim and basically says, this situation is really crummy in many ways for many people, but it needs to stay outside of work, and if you can’t keep it out of work then there will be disciplinary action. (I believe they actually told Nancy she would be fired, since she was a supervisor, but I don’t think anyone else got the firing threat.) To their credit, most of the ridiculousness died down at this point, but the many busybodies in the office meant that it was still pretty unusual to get through a day without someone having some opinion to share about the whole thing. Ultimately Mary and Bill both quit and Jim got fired as a result of the performance problems that started cropping up around the time that all of this was happening. Nancy still works there and firmly believes she is management material…and while I do think she was wronged, she was also wrong to use her position at work to retaliate against her ex-boyfriend and his new girlfriend.

      TLDR: Don’t do it!

    4. shirley*

      I married mine so…it works sometimes! We did not work together directly and in fact rarely saw each other at work, and only worked together for a couple of years.

      1. Kitchenalia*

        Yep, my experience too. Not working directly together is the only way it worked for us.

      2. catsAreCool*

        I know a few people who met at work and ended up married, and it worked great.

        I dated a co-worker once, and we broke up, but it wasn’t terrible. I mean, I felt sad, but we didn’t work together, so we mostly avoided each other for a while.

    5. going undercover for this one*

      I wouldn’t advise it.

      I dated someone at work and got engaged. He jilted me 3 days before the wedding. I was devastated but found some great advice online and got through it. The gist of the advice was that I had dodged a bullet – you don’t want to be married to someone who isn’t 100% in love with you. Second best or almost in a marriage would be awful.

      We parted not as enemies but somewhat friends. We remain friends to this day. I have NO ill will to him and he doesn’t to me. It just didn’t work out. and he was smart enough for both of us to see it.

      Everyone in the office made it a point to tell me that they were ‘on my side”. They would tell me about the mean things they would do to him to ‘get him back’. A few weeks later, he was transferred out of my division because my boss thought it was too hard for me to work with him – not true, our work path didn’t cross often, perhaps once a month and then it would usually be by e-mail. The division he is now in is the misery division – it had that reputation before and it still has that reputation. My boss recently told me that he had approached her to ask to be back in our division and she wanted to know if it would upset me, (of course it wouldn’t).

      The drama imposed by other co-workers who put their own spin on things is the worst. Not the whole return the wedding presents, what I am going to do with the dress, not the initial raw feeling about the whole thing. It was how other people treated us both afterwards. I still get weird reverb from it. One person who was recently divorced decided we were besties because no one loved either one of us and we had no one – yes – she actually said that out loud to me.

  108. Brett*

    So, today I received a major commendation today out our governing board meeting for a project I hated and wanted no part of. Apparently even when I am completely demotivated I can do good work?
    I think it is more that our workplace has gone a little commendation crazy to make up for the pay freeze since 2007. These are supposed to be rare awards, but I’ve received enough in the past 7 years now to make a stack 2.5″ high on my desk. And most of co-workers are right up there with me.
    Of the five people getting commendations today, I think only one looked happy to be there. People used to invite their entire families for these. I was the only one with a family member there today. I am thinking the commendation as morale booster is failing.

    1. fposte*

      Well, it doesn’t substitute for raises and promotions, and from what you’ve said of your workplace they’re pretty much trying to make it do just that.

  109. ExJourno*

    I started a new job about a month ago, and so far things are going well. I’m not a superstar (yet?) but I’ve received some positive feedback already and I get along with my coworkers.

    My boss wants to know if I can work a rare Saturday event this month. Typically, I would be fine with that, but I had plans to go out of town that weekend for a friend’s bridal shower and my mom’s birthday. Can I just say “Sorry, I have plans” or do I suck it up because I’m new?

    The event will be fine without my help, and our department is working that day in addition to our typical work week, so it’s not a PTO issue. I’m pretty confident my boss will let me skip out, but I’m concerned that will make him think I’m not a team player.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      This depends so much on your boss. Lots of bosses would not want you to change your plans without asking first if it was worth changing plans over. I would absolutely want you to tell me, and then I could decide if I needed you enough to ask you to give up your family time (I would probably decide that I didn’t). But it really depends on your company’s culture around being available to work at unusual times at the last minute. If you have a co-worker you can ask about norms, that might be a good way to find out what reaction you are likely to get.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would stick to your plans. If you tell your boss, “I’m sorry, but I’ve made plans to be out of town that weekend” (subtext, true or not, being nonrefundable expenses like plane fare) and you get a very negative reaction, well – IMO that says more about your boss than it does about whether or not you’re a team player.

      1. fposte*

        I like this, but I’d also say “Usually I’d be able to,” because it sounds like ExJourno would, and it makes it clear that it’s about the timing, not about ever working Saturdays.

  110. Burkleigh*

    I’ve got a dilemma I hope some of you can chime in on. I have been in my current job for 6 months; it’s my first professional job, and it’s been going pretty well. However, for the past 3 months I’ve experienced a lot of bullying behavior from my supervisors (insults, basically treating me like I don’t have feelings, not believing me when I say tasks are impossible to complete with the knowledge and resources I have, etc.). They actually made me cry once. I don’t particularly like this job anyway, but when I started I was fully intending to stay at least 1-2 years to gain experience. Now I have been looking for a new job because the bullying I’m experiencing is making it really hard to imagine staying a minute longer than I have to–some days I fantasize about just quitting without notice, if only I didn’t need the paycheck so badly! Over time, I’ve heard stories from coworkers about bullying that has happened (from the same supervisors) either to them or to former employees they knew. So I’ve been wondering, should I report my bosses to HR? Or should I just keep applying for other jobs and get out when I have the chance? I have already given HR some vague information and they say they would like to investigate any behavior that is making employees uncomfortable, but I’m also wondering if reporting more fully would come back to bite me if my bosses figure out it was me who reported them. So, AAM readers, what do you think I should do?

    1. Joey*

      It depends on what you mean by insults and treating you like you have no feelings. If they’re criticizing your work (ie “what we’re you thinking when you put this report together) that’s verry different from personal insults like “are you fucking stupid?” If they disagree whether or not you should be able to complete a task take that as a sign that either they’re misinformed about your resources or they maybe you don’t have the skills they’re looking for.

      But either way I think the answer is the same-look for another job. I say that because it could easily look like you’re boss is having performance issues with you and you’re taking it personally.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Ugh. This is always so hard – there is no guarantee that reporting them won’t impact you in a negative way – although it certainly shouldn’t. But it’s still a good thing to stand up for yourself and also for other employees so that think kind of thing doesn’t continue.

      It’s not your fault that you’re being treated disrespectfully. At the same time, I wonder if you can shift the way that you interact with your supervisor and maybe change the dynamics to make it more bearable in the meantime. For example, you said that you’re telling her that what she’s asking you to do is impossible. Maybe that’s not the phrasing you used in real life, but that’s a pretty frustrating thing for a supervisor to hear because it’s so black-and-white – and it’s possible that she knows it is possible. Instead of saying, “it’s impossible to do this because of the training and resources I have”, you could instead let her know that you will get started, and then would like to meet with her to ask your questions. Engage in a conversation about the project, and ask for her advice about how to overcome the barriers. If she is at all reasonable, she will either provide the resources and training that you need, or she will realize that you can’t do it. Keep that conversation going so that she has a better understanding of what the project entails, as well as your skills and capacity to get it done.

    3. Joey*

      It depends on what you mean. It sounds like you could be having some performance issues being so new so do you mean that criticism about your work is insulting or are they personal attacks? I Say that because its a bad sign when you’re supervisor thinks you should be able to do something and you say it’s impossible. Not saying he’s being reasonable, just that it sounds like he’s expecting more than you can deliver.

      1. Joey*

        Either way unless he’s attacking you personally I wouldn’t say anything and would just get out

    4. Rat Racer*

      In my experience, the higher ups almost always side with the bosses, unless the bosses are acting so egregiously that there is a genuine risk to the company (like a lawsuit). This is true always but especially when you are new to the organization and untested. It was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn when I joined the workforce: there’s no one looking out for the little guy.

      If you can maintain your dignity and continue to do your best, you’re doing yourself a great service. There are horrible bully bosses out there but also wonderful caring mentors; hopefully, your next job will land you with the latter variety. In the meantime, you can work on growing some very, very thick skin – an invaluable asset in almost any job.

    5. Burkleigh*

      What my coworkers and I are experiencing is a mixed bag of work critiques and more personal jabs…rarely is there any positive or helpful feedback from the supervisors. My own supervisor isn’t so bad, it’s the “big boss” (head of the organization) who seems to cause most of the problems and my supervisor always sides with the big boss. A while ago my supervisor said my work looked okay and then the next day in a meeting the “big boss” said she didn’t like my work and my supervisor immediately agreed with her. Another example: one of them was introducing a new employee to everyone and I was introduced as “This is Burkleigh, who is still learning to deal with our collaborative environment.” This had nothing to do with the new employee, and was a reference to an incident months ago when I was called “not a team player” because I merely suggested that I would love to be given a list of tasks to do in the first place, instead of being asked to contribute my ideas but always having my suggestions overridden in the end and having to redo things over and over.

      The job is not actually a great fit for me–about half the workload is web design, which I had very little experience with before. I think they hired me because they didn’t have any extremely qualified candidates. I’m expected to “work miracles” with no formal training, while they also act like I don’t know anything about what I DO understand–I have to get coworkers to back me up if I say something’s not possible with the software at hand. But I just graduated a year ago and I had to take what I could get for a first job, and I am in a very competitive field so I have no idea how long it will be before I even get an interview elsewhere.

      I have a performance review coming up so I’ll try to ask for more training opportunities then. I plan to continue discreetly job searching but I am still not sure what to tell HR. I really don’t think they can effectively do anything to help me, but I already mentioned I was being bullied and the HR person keeps asking if I want to meet and discuss it further. This workplace definitely has problems–it sounds like a lot of people have left in the past year or two and I think it’s mainly due to personality conflicts with the leadership. But I don’t think HR saying “stop bullying your employees” will actually fix anything.

      1. Jen RO*

        Honestly, I don’t see bullying in those two examples. The type of feedback is a bit more direct/less sugarcoated than I would prefer for myself, but I don’t see it as unprofessional, mean, rude or anything.

      2. AnotherTeacher*

        Unless you want to file a formal complaint, don’t go to HR, who is there to protect the company. Just get out when you can.

  111. JBurr*

    I and about 9 other female employees just received a “Happy Mother’s Day” email from a coworker with an apology for anyone she missed and a request to forward on the message. It seems like she meant it to go out to every woman in the company, or if she meant it just for the mothers, she did not do her homework since there are at least two of us in the distribution who are not mothers.

    I’m bothered for a couple reasons, mainly that I’m childless by choice and already getting enough grief from my family for my evil liberal lifestyle. In the same vein, I hate seeing motherhood and womanhood conflated (or parenthood and adulthood, but I feel like this is overwhelmingly a problem that women see more than men). Moreover, as we’ve discussed here many times before, you never know who might be privately struggling with infertility or other family planning issues. Not to mention anyone who recently lost a mother or child. We’re all already seeing enough “Happy Mother’s’ Day” out and about. We don’t need it at work too.

    I’m perfectly aware that she meant it from a kind place, but I still feel like I should say something, both for myself and for the other employees that might have been made uncomfortable. I’ll at least wait until I’ve had a chance to talk it over with my boss when he gets back next week (we’re HR, so I worry that anything I say would carry that additional weight). Am I way overreacting? I don’t want to tear her a new one or anything, I just want to ask her to be more mindful of this kind of thing.

    1. katamia*

      I don’t think you’re overreacting. That was careless of her. I would say something, personally. It does sound like it was coming from a positive place, but it’s really not nice or kind to assume all women are/want to be/are physically capable of becoming (biological) mothers. If the email had gone to every single employee as a sort of “Happy Mother’s Day weekend”-type thing, that would be different (since men and non-binary/genderqueer individuals have mothers too), but just the women? Ick.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Agreed, her intentions were good but she didn’t think about any of the reasons she listed for why her message is insensitive. I think emailing her and nicely explaining how this message could hurt feelings is a good idea. Hopefully she will be able to take it to heart without getting defensive.

        I saw someone on facebook the other day post some meme where you list your children’s due date, birthdate, names, and birth weight and ask other moms to do the same, which really bothered me – what about people struggling with infertility, women who’ve had miscarriages, people with adopted children? I’m childless by choice but many are not.

    2. Natalie*

      That is just so weird. I’d be tempted to inquire if she was my long lost child…

      I don’t think it would be out of line to say something to her similar to what you’ve said here (particularly since you’re in HR). It doesn’t need to be a BFD, just a polite note that this kind of thing may make people uncomfortable.

    4. Jem*

      I share your annoyance – just because someone is a female over the age of 20 doesn’t mean she’s necessarily a mother! People are idiots…well-meaning idiots, but idiots nonetheless. I would let it go, though. *Maybe* reply to her email and mention you’re not a mother but thanks anyway, but nothing more than that.

      1. Jem*

        Also, since when did Mother’s Day become about wishing a Happy Mother’s Day to any random woman you come across? I though Mother’s Day was about honoring your OWN mother, but that seems to have shifted in the last few years.

        1. Sara*

          Two years ago my boyfriend (long-distance at the time) texted me to wish me a happy Mother’s Day. I was all, “Do you know something that I don’t?”

        2. Windchime*

          Yeah, even random people working at the grocery store say, “Happy Mother’s Day!” to me. It’s weird. If you’re not my child, don’t wish me Happy Mother’s day. My Facebook feed is full of people gearing up for big brunches and fancy outings.

          Yes, I have kids. And I couldn’t care less if they get me a gift or wish me a happy day, and I certainly don’t want them to fight traffic to get here and buy me an expensive brunch. Let’s just all have a relaxing Sunday and call it a day!

    5. AnotherFed*

      I’d probably ignore that message itself, but I’d reply with May the 4th be with you, Happy Cinco De Mayo, happy VE day (commonwealth countries), happy VE day (everyone else), happy liberation day, etc.

      And that’s just the events this week!

      Note that this may be bad advice, because I come from an office where anyone who dared to wish me a Happy Mother’s Day would know to be immediately fleeing the range of the pencil launcher made of binder clips and rubber bands.

    6. AnnieNonymous*

      Those kinds of things bug me too. All of the women in my office (but not the men) were invited to my boss’ wife’s baby shower. My best office friend and I are not sure if we’re going. On one hand, it’s at a restaurant that we probably couldn’t afford a full meal at on our own. But on the other hand, I’m not interested in buying a gift for millionaires when they already don’t pay us as much as they should.

    7. Jen RO*

      I’m not a mother (and I never plan to be), but I would just laugh at the email and let it go. I don’t see what confronting the coworker could accomplish.

    8. matcha123*

      I don’t think it’s overreacting. People don’t think and they should think before sending out things like that. If I were you, I’d reply with a “Thanks, but I’m not a mom and not interested in being one. So, I’ll pass this one on to my mom :)”

      And then just leave it at that.

    1. AVP*

      These are amazing. I just hired for an entry-level job and while I didn’t get anything quite on this level, I can empathize with the people who got some of these applications!

    2. AnotherFed*

      Wow. Just wow. That cheers me up tremendously after resume-screening for entry-level hiring this week.

  113. maria*

    Late but hope someone is reading. A coworker got laid off without warning this week and disappeared from one day to the next. She and I were friendly, and I am sad for her — I know she is a widow, somewhat lonely, and must be close to retirement age if not past it. I wasn’t close enough to her to have her personal email or address. Is it expected that laid off folks hear nothing from old coworkers? I don’t necessarily know what I would even say to her, but it feels unkind to just let it go entirely. Unless that is protocol…?

    1. TheLazyB*

      Would you be able to ask her manager to pass on your message/contact details? Then she can choose whether or not to reply.
      Nice of you to care, I would appreciate a message in those circumstances.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Given that you don’t have her personal email or address, I don’t know what you could do. It is kind of “protocol” to say good bye and never see work “friends” again. It’s unfortunate you didn’t get to say good bye, but I am not sure that there’s much you could say to her.

      The only thing to do to help would be if you found out she was job searching would be to let her if you knew of any leads or could connect her to someone in your network.

    3. Nanc*

      You are so nice to want to reach out! Having been laid off in the past I know I appreciated good wishes. If she’s close to retirement age, I’ll bet she’s in the phone book. If you don’t have one, try whitepages dot com or check with your local library–her address may be listed. An old fashioned snail mail letter saying you enjoyed working with her and wishing her the best.

    5. danr*

      You can certainly ask around at work to find friends of hers. They can send on your contact info.

    6. Xarcady*

      In a similar situation, I bought a card and wrote a note and took the card to HR, where they were willing to look up her address and send it on. I had included my contact info and got a nice email back about a month later. Depends on your HR department, though.

  114. Kelly C*

    Popping in quickly to ask for good vibes sent my way. Things are shaky at work and something very bad is likely to happen. Management has been meeting a lot and one started off a loud meeting with another manager saying “we’ve go to do something. Clients are unhappy” and before that she had told another manager to be sure “Jack talks to Kelly when he comes in”.

    So I’m not sure what’s happening but send some good job vibes my way please.

    1. Just me, Vee*

      Good luck, Kelly. If nothing happens today, try not to stress over the weekend.

  115. the gold digger*

    Thank you to whomever posted the link to Eve and the Palindomes. (tinykittens dot com)

    I have taken frequent breaks at work this week to watch the little baby kitties and it has improved my mood every single time! (Not in a bad mood because of work but because Sly and Doris are pretty much going to ruin our summer with their health issues. You can’t prevent cancer, but you sure can prevent falling on your wife when you are drunk, damaging her knees, including some bone breakage, putting her in a hospital for two weeks, and then in rehab since then. Five weeks later and she still cannot walk or even bend her knees.)

    Kittens make everything better.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve been watching it constantly. (Also made a donation to the rescue group that’s caring for them last night, which I encourage others to do!) I think last night I watched them start to play a little bit with each other for the first time.

    2. Anonyby*

      TinyKittens is awesome, though I don’t watch her as much. I started with Foster Dad John, and I’m also watching the Classical Kittens over at Sarah’s Kitten Cuddle Room. :)

  116. Resigning*

    I just got an amazing new job that increases my salary by 50% and pretty comparable benefits to mine now. I’ll be increasing my career prospects into the future too, so its really a win-win situation. BUT I also have an amazing job right now where I’m paid just fine for my needs and great benefits. I also have a great boss, who has done everything she can to keep me around, including meeting pretty much every reasonable request I have. The reason I looked for another job is because I was traveling excessively and it was becoming to much for my family to handle (it complicated our lives greatly due to my husbands’ work situation too). But I honestly wasn’t expecting to find such an amazing opportunity. Of course I took the other job, and I’m telling my boss today about leaving. I feel absolutely awful, because she has been so great, and she knew the traveling thing was a problem for me, and has done what she could (which just isn’t enough at this point). I just couldn’t say no to such a great opportunity. How do you tell a great boss that you are leaving for a reason that she was trying to remedy to get you to stay? There was no way that she could raise my salary to what they’ve offered me, not even close. And there really aren’t any more perks she can offer, as I’m a senior employee with all the perks I could want at this point. To top it all off, the organization is in kind of a slump and behind on our work in general, and morale is low because there has been a lot of turnover lately. My reason for leaving has nothing to do with that, but I’m sure it will be especially hard to take…
    I guess I’m just venting, and asking for advice on how to tell a great boss how awesome they were but, sorry, not awesome enough?

    1. TCO*

      I had to do that once–I had a great job where I was treated really well and given great opportunities, but I was ready for more money and advancement that they just didn’t have. My boss wasn’t surprised at all when I told her I was leaving–she knew as well as I did that I’d reached the limit of what they could do to keep me. She was sad to see me go, but really supportive of my need to move on.

      I don’t think your boss will be surprised. I hope your resignation goes smoothly and your new job is a great step forward.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      How about “It’s been a struggle with balancing work commitments with other obligations, and I really appreciate your efforts to help on that front. However, I’ve decided to accept another position more closely aligned with what I need at this point in my career and life. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned here, and I think you have been an outstanding supervisor/mentor/etc.”

      Then segue into talking about what you have done/will do to document for the person who comes in after you. If this person is as awesome as you say, then she can’t fault you for taking a position that increases your pay 50%, adds better work-life balance and gives you opportunity to advance.

      1. Graciosa*

        Good advice.

        One thing you need to remember about great bosses is that they understand when people take offers like this, and are actually pleased for them.

  117. Anon this time*

    Is there a professional way to let your boss know you are leaving because you discovered he is paying you a lower rate than people with much less experience, and that you have been promoted over? I was so insulted when I found out. Now I have an offer on the way (for MUCH higher rate than I am at btw), and I’ll be giving my two weeks soon. I kinda want to let him know that the reason I am jumping ship unexpectedly is because of the pay. But I can’t think of a professional way to do it.

    2. just a girl*

      I think that could be a potentially very awkward situation. How did you find out this information, which many employers would consider confidential? Would it get the other person who divulged this information in trouble? Or do you happen to work at an employer that posts salaries publicly?

      1. Observer*

        It doesn’t make much of a difference what the employer’s policy is, in the US. HR / Payroll can be told not to divulge other people’s pay. However, anyone else is free to talk about it and it is illegal for the company to try to stop it.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Unless you want to tell your boss this to genuinely help him retain other employees and are not going to share data given to you in confidence, then no. You’ll just burn a bridge that you might want as a reference for the job after this new one, and it probably isn’t worth it for the 5 minutes of “I told him!” satisfaction.

    4. Graciosa*

      I disagree with AnotherFed that this can’t be done without burning a bridge. You can if you don’t do this negatively.

      What that means is that you keep talking about how amazing the offer is and how you couldn’t possibly turn down that amount of money – as much as you like your current employer. You gush a bit about how much you’ve learned and how much you love your current job, but who could resist an X% raise? You thank him profusely for all his wonderful guidance and support that enabled you to reach a position where another company was willing to pay you $X more in salary just for doing the same job you’re doing now! And you’re SO grateful, but you know he wants the best for you, and how could you turn that down?

      The exit interview (if there is one) needs to follow the same line. No, there’s nothing wrong at work – it’s wonderful, and you really appreciated A, B, and C, and enjoyed D, and E, and are terribly grateful for F, and G. Why are you leaving? Well, another employer is going to pay you $X – which is a $Y / Z% increase over your current salary for exactly the same work, so how could you turn that down?

      This makes the point that salaries are not meeting the market (if they care, which they may not) without burning a bridge by saying “You &*%$’s have been underpaying me for years, and you’re finally getting what you deserve!”

      The more positive (but truthful) things you can say about your experience, the harder it will be for your employer to give you a negative reference in the future – and it actually makes it worse for them because it highlights that the only problem they had to fix to keep you was just money.

      Finally, be mentally prepared for a counteroffer, but don’t take it. Your answer is that you’ve made a commitment to your new employer, and your integrity is too important to you to break it- much as you would have loved to stay at your current employer and certainly would have if only they had raised your salary before you had accepted another offer.

  118. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Anybody do SEM (Search Engine Marketing)? I am in the middle of a **massive** project and could use a friendly, commiserating geek out.

    Since I’m not likely to find a taker to the above, let me open the question up a little. Anybody relate to: massive project doing something you love, right up to the point where you hate it so much you would throw your laptop against the wall and then, next day love again, right up the point…

    Can you relate?

    So. Detailed. You. Are. Sure. You. Will. Lose. Your. Mind.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      p.s. If anybody has SEM questions, I am HAPPY to entertain them. I cannot look one more set of numbers until at least tomorrow. I’m CHATTY. :-)

    2. Malissa*

      I was there when I was exporting data/auditing/uploading to the new system. I loved the work, yet I also hated it after the 8th hour in a day of looking at it.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        I was so fed up Wednesday evening that I swore I was taking a vacation day on Thursday (which, I never do), and yet I was back at it Thursday morning, loving it again.

  119. Bad Timing*

    Is there any good way to quit a job after 3 weeks? My new job, boss, and team are great, but I just got an unbelievable offer from literally the top firm in town. I think I’ll always regret it if I don’t take this opportunity, but at the same time I realize I’m screwing over my current employer who just hired me.

    1. BRR*

      No. You will be burning the bridge and if you’re in a small industry word might possibly spread.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Absolutely no good way. You’re leaving the new job hanging and you can’t get around that.

      Do I think you should? Sure, as long a you understand the downside. BRR mentions the big one, reputation. If the reputation factor doesn’t matter to you, and if you’re sure the new job is that much better, why not. Employers get over it. I’ve had it happen to me and I’ve gotten over it. It’s not fundamentally different to an org operations than having a new hire who doesn’t work out, which also happens.

    3. Stephanie*

      No. Just double- and triple-check the offer, the firm’s reputation, all that before you throw a Molotov cocktail on that bridge.

  120. AnonGovProblem*

    Hi all! I work in an environmental science field where it’s really common to volunteer during undergrad, take short low-paying contracts during grad school, and then finally qualify for a permanent mid-level job once you have 5-7 years of experience and a completed MA (federal standards). I just got to the permanent level and I’m working in a region I absolutely adore. The only thing is that I’m so used to contracts and this is my first long-term gig so I’m having trouble with not stressing over the red flags. I’m a government contractor working as a permanent employee for a private company. I’ve done this before, but it’s different this time because I knew my contract would end and I could forget about the horrible things (like the forest who had a woman attempt to destroy a man’s life, investigated the situation, found her at fault, and then bumped her up a GS level and moved her across the country instead of firing her). This time is different because it’s long-term. And of course, our office has an individual who is extremely racist and sexist and who has had 13 harassment complaints filed against him in the last 6 months by several private contractors but, because he’s government, they’ve done nothing about it. I hoped it wouldn’t be a problem, but week 2 came around and he told the building manager he didn’t like me wearing sandals because “women shouldn’t show their feet” and, the next thing I know, they’re demanding my supervisor deal with it (he’s been horrible to her so she’s never pleased when they demand she do something per his request). So many rules have gone through because of him, like no talking in the cubicles, no showing your feet, no touching (a POC coworker hugged a white coworker in the office and he went ballistic), etc. How are we supposed to communicate about work? It’s all so ridiculous that they take his complaints seriously. Someone should have already told him to just shut his door (he has his own office and we’re all in cubicles in the middle of the room). Anyway, my question is this: how in the world do I deal with the stress of knowing that this guy is going to be a problem for the next few years? Other than him, I’m really happy with my job and my coworkers, so I wouldn’t label it toxic, but I don’t like how the government is handling this ridiculous guy. Any advice?

    1. AnotherFed*

      I’d consider filing an anonymous EEO or IG complaint about him. Presumably you know what agency he works for, and if the harassment claims have been turned over to the government but the government has not properly investigated them or done anything to stop the behavior from continuing or worsening, then that is absolutely grounds to report the situation to either his agency’s EEO office (probably can’t do that anonymously) or to report the agency to the IG for failing to properly handle EEO complaints.

      Both solutions will probably take forever for action to occur (it is the government), but at least it might make you feel less powerless.

      1. AnonGovProblem*

        I think that’s really what it is – I feel powerless. I’m a control freak, so not having a feasible plan of action for when it gets bad (if it does) was killing me. I did some quick research based on your reply and I think I will bring it up to my supervisor on Monday. I would rather keep my head down if I can, but I will only take so much – it would be nice for our team to be on the same page with moving forward. It’s been a problem for a long enough period that it’s always on the back of everyone’s mind and someone brings it up at least once a day just to vent a bit, so bringing it up to her wouldn’t seem random or like I’m worrying too much about it. Everyone is obviously exhausted with this guy (and for good reason).

        For the record, I could care less about being told I can’t wear sandals. Dress codes are normal in my field and if they had used to regular “safety issue” explanation then they could have saved themselves more drama. It’s like they want us to know they’re siding with his ridiculous bigoted complaints…

    2. catsAreCool*

      Would it be possible to get people organized so that everyone is wearing sandals, and a lot of hugging goes on? Maybe he’ll flip his lid and quit.

      1. AnonGovProblem*

        That would be hilarious! But if anything, we’d probably just force their hand into cutting our company’s contract to make him happy.

    3. Observer*

      Filing a complaint is the way to go. Document everything in excruciating detail. And, encourage others to do the same. It will almost certainly take time, but if you hit the right channels they WILL do something about it, as long as you give them the material.

  121. Hazel*

    Thanks to reading threads here, I have started lots of great habits at my new job: writing down my daily achievements, setting goals for myself, and – crucially – asking my managers for feedback and criticism.

    I have aspergers (which means I can very literal), so I think I may have actually stated, “I want to be good at this job, so I really value any feedback you can give me about my performance.” In retrospect I feel kind of embarrassed about being so frank, but I hope it will work in my favour.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      That is a really normal and acceptable thing to say – if I were your manager I would not think it was odd at all – but it would make me stop and think about doing more to support/mentor you.

      1. Hazel*

        Thank you. It’s a very small team, and they brought me in because they’re really busy. There’s nobody to provide that kind of one-to-one support so I have to chase it. Initially I felt bad about interrupting people, but it’s the only way I’m going to grow and develop, so I’m learning to like it.

    3. Clever Name*

      I once told a supervisor (after hearing them and another coworker complaining about a coworker’s quality of work) “I hope that if there ever is a problem with my work quality you’d tell me about it rather than talking about it behind my back”. So I don’t think what you said is a problem at all! :)

  122. nicolefromqueens*

    I’ve been a permatemp for local government for about 18 months. I plan to stay but it doesn’t pay a living wage, so I am going to look for a part time job on the side. But I’m having an issue with renaming my job title.

    My current title is the ever-so-vague “Office Assistant”, but all of my work is basically data entry. I also do quality control, maintaining lists, some of the more advanced work and stuff that needs special attention, as well as training other temps. Really, what I do is more in line with “Assistant Manager”. I’ve done all of the work tasks my manager does (besides personnel issues and timekeeping), nobody else has.

    All of the other temps in this department have the “Office Assistant” title, including those who do work in more general roles, and those who do exclusively customer service.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      You don’t want to substantially rename your job. If a prospective employer verifies your employment, they are going to notice that you gave yourself a more important sounding title and are likely to perceive it as dishonest. Office Assistant to Assistant Manager is a big jump. Just use the bullet points under the heading to explain what you accomplished.

    2. Graciosa*

      Ashley is right – you cannot give yourself another title. This could torpedo your chances at a future job.

      You can, however, ask your employer for a change in title. If this were a private entity, you might be able to negotiate this – but candidly, I’m not optimistic about your chances when dealing with a government entity. Still, the worst that is likely to happen if you ask is that nothing changes, so I’d ask.

  123. Anonyby*

    Just venting.

    Dad’s gf has been encouraging me to apply for jobs with the city library that she’s a member of. While I love the idea of working in a library… None of the job postings are showing up for me. :( They look like internal postings, which means not for me. Plus I use Firefox and Chrome exclusively and the city’s job postings won’t show up on either of those browsers. :( (She emailed me the postings, which is where I saw that they were internal.)

  124. Anx*

    I am hoping for some advice an reapplying to companies after going back to school. My most recent degree is not my highest degree earned.

    Do you think I should put the more recent A.S. ahead of the B.S? I will be getting my A.S. this summer if I decide to apply for graduation. The two fields are very closely related, but the A.S. is more technically focused and less academic.

    Second question, would it look weird to put the dates on only the newest degree? I graduated in Dec 2008. I would prefer not another billboard on my resume pointing out that I’ve had a degree for 7 years and am still trying to get a toehold into a career. Would it look weird to only put my recent degree’s date, since it’s at a lower level? I want to show that the AS was recent. It would help reduce the post-2008 job gaps.

    Also, what should I do this summer? I’ve completed the requirements for the degree but did not apply for graduation because I wanted to be able to take classes over the summer if I was working part-time. Would it be okay to put (coursework complete). I would just mention it in a cover letter, but not every job will take them.

    1. Anx*

      Follow up:

      Also, how do think I should handle the GPA issue. I have 3.9. First degree me would be pretty happy about this, but current me is a little worried because it’s not a 4.0. First degree me had a pretty bad GPA. My gut says to leave them both out. But I’m worried that I might be losing out on a selling point. I can’t tell if a 3.9 is something to advertise or not, especially at a community college.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Usually it’s the higher degree that’s more recent, not the lower, but I would still probably put the BS first. If you’re applying to jobs where the AS is much more important and relevant, I would consider leaving off the BS entirely. I saw a resume this past week for someone who had a MS in hospitality and tourism, and then a BS in math, but only the math degree was relevant to the job. In that case, the hospitality and tourism degree was just a waste of resume space and made me think the person was a little bit flaky, especially with no explanation in any of the rest of the application package.

      It would look weird to put dates on only one degree but not the other. I’d probably put dates on both (or for now, expected August 2015 on your AS), because leaving them off makes people wonder what you’re trying to hide. Use the cover letter to briefly address why the AS is after the BS, or only put one degree on the resume based on the job you are applying for.

    3. TalleySueNYC*

      I don’t think anybody cares about your GPA. It means I have to do too much math. Not that it’s really math, but I just don’t care in a number-quantifiable way.
      Oddly enough, if you put “summa cum laude” or “dean’s list” or similar, I would care; that would tell me, “Oh, smart, and organized enough to do really well at college.”
      I don’t know if that says that I just respond more to words than numbers; I think the numbers just make me feel that the whole issue is picayune. And the words don’t.

      I might say you put the newest degree first, and maybe some note about expanding your skills, especially in the cover letter. Bcs that’s the story: You had a degree; you went back for more training in a related specialty.
      That’s a valuable thing.

      I think that as long as you list your focus for your A.S. (if you have a specific major, put that, or else just put something like “Focus: Related Specialty”), and also the major/focus of your B.S., anybody who’s actually *looking* at your education will see, “Oh, she went for more specialized training recently.”

      And I’d also say: yes, get the degree, if -only- because it makes listing it on your resumé so very much easier.

    4. TalleySueNYC*

      Oh–don’t leave the B.S. off!

      And for the summer, sinc eyou want to take classes, put:

      EDUCATION
      Associate in Science pending, 2015, ….
      or
      Associate in Science pending, coursework complete for 2015 graduation, ….

      I don’t know if I’d worry so much about the date of the B.S.–bury somehow in the entry, so that it’s not front and center, but I’d include it.

      Like this:
      EDUCATION
      Associate of Science pending in Technical Specialty, Educational Institution Name
      Dean’s list; coursework complete for fall 2015 graduation

      Bachelor of Science in Broader Field, Educational Institution Name

      1. TalleySueNYC*

        Whoops–forgot; the second listing should be:

        Bachelor of Science in Broader Field, Educational Institution Name
        Graduation: 2008

        (if you had any sort of honor, or minor, or anything else, put it first and the date last):

        Bachelor of Science in Broader Field, Educational Institution Name
        Minor: Humanities; Blue Key Honor Society; graduation: 2008

  125. fposte*

    Pension news–the state Supreme Court has smacked down the attempt to change our pensions as unconstitutional and also smacked the General Assembly for trying. Our governor is now announcing that he will try to pass a new amendment to the state constitution to stricture the pensions even *further* than in the smacked-down plan.

    Remember most of us in the pension plan have no Social Security, so planning for retirement in light of this is . . . kind of tricky.

    1. BRR*

      This attack on pensions is so terrible. Like this is what people are counting on for retirement and it was guaranteed. It makes me so mad.

    2. Anonymous Fish*

      I think your governor can try all he wants to amend the state constitution, but the fact of the matter is, he is just wasting taxpayer dollars. It’s not just unconstitutional under your state constitution (whatever you are), it’s unconstitutional under the federal constitution (the government can’t seize property without just compensation… and your vested pension benefits ARE your property.)

        2. fposte*

          Or Detroit. I don’t think the federal constitution has been much help here.

          As it happens, our state has the strongest constitutional protections for pensions of any, so it wasn’t a surprise that the law changing it got smacked down (and this is also why many states were interested in the result, because if our pension had been found legal to change all the others were at even greater risk). The governor likely is wasting taxpayer dollars, though, because the power in the state house is in the opposing party. However, the pension system is drastically underfunded, so something needs to be figured out.

    3. Stephanie*

      *sends fposte virtual Powerball ticket*

      I heard about this on the radio earlier. That sucks. :(

      1. fposte*

        Thanks. If I win the virtual Powerball, you can have a percentage of my virtual money.

  126. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

    I cried and cried about a project that I was had been spending every day and night working on (after having just spent 4-5 days and nights on a bigger, more important client project)– because when I handed it in and was elated to be done with it, my bosses hated it :( It was me trying to write an article, which I’ve whined about on this site before, and it just didn’t turn out well. It’s so frustrating because it feels like it will never end.

    I was able to come up with an alternate outline and I’ll try it again, but i just want it to be done!

    On a positive note, I’m going camping with friends tonight– friends that are bringing their dogs! Dogs + Camping by a river, with my face nowhere near a darned screen = HEAVEN!

    Happy Friday everyone – let’s hope next week, none of us cry at work :(

    1. TalleySueNYC*

      Dogs! Enjoy those dogs. They are an amazing antidote to any possible feeling of incompleteness in ourselves.

    2. Snoskred*

      WorkingFromCafeInCA – if you want some fresh eyes to take a look at your article before you hand it in, I’m sure I am not the only one here who would offer to take a look – you can reach me via the contact page on my blog which is linked to my name here, you can just click on it. :)

  127. TAing Woes*

    Academic people, a little help please!

    I am a teaching assistant and graduate student currently working for a non-tenure track instructor. We disagree on giving back the student’s final papers at the end of the quarter. They want the students to come to their office next quarter (in the fall) to pick up the papers, while I would like to leave the papers in my mailbox for the students to pick up whenever they have time. Several students have told me that they want their papers back, because their papers represent an entire quarter’s worth of work.

    I understand the students’ hesitance to continue interactions with the instructor. The instructor is aggressive when interacting with students, to the point of making students cry on several occasions. Frankly, I’m surprised this person is still employed. The students do not want any more contact with the instructor, nor do they want to wait several months to get their papers back.

    There is no issue with grading, since we will submit grades well before the end of the quarter (it is a social science class with a final paper, and no final exam). There is no official policy about holding onto final papers. The only reason the instructor has given me for making the students come to their office is because “I want to here how their summers were!”

    What can I say to convince the instructor to let the students pick up their papers in my box? Or should I just let this go? I feel bad, because some of these students truly spent a lot of time and effort on projects that were very personal to them.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Ouch, sounds like you’re kind of stuck, and if the prof is already aggressive, there might not be anything you can say that doesn’t risk making your life rough while you work for him.

      How many students are there? If it’s a reasonable number, I’d consider scanning the papers for the students of arranging to have them at your office hours so that they can take a look (perhaps nominally so that you can resolve questions about grades or whatever other reason would work for your prof). That way, the students get to see why they got the grades they did, can take photos with their phones if they really want that, and the professor can still hand papers back in the fall to anyone who actually wants it at that point.

    2. BRR*

      Well I’d be worried about having the papers out in the open. But it’s ridiculous they’d have to wait. What if they have summer courses and want feedback before that so they can use the comments for their summer work?

      1. TAing Woes*

        The papers will be in individually sealed manila envelopes with the students’ names on them, so they won’t necessarily be out in the open.

    3. Nanc*

      It’s been awhile since I taught be we were not permitted to leave student work in mailboxes for pick up–something about confidentiality, etc. What I did was tell the students they could give me an SASE or come by the next term during my office hours. I would keep final papers until the end of the next term and then they were shredded.

      1. TAing Woes*

        Like I mentioned above, he papers will be in individually sealed manila envelopes with the students’ names on them.

        1. AdjunctGal*

          I think that could still be a FERPA violation (if you are in the US) because anyone could just take any of the sealed envelopes. I’d be wary of that.

          1. AnotherTeacher*

            +1

            Even in envelopes, this presents a potential privacy violation. Can you (instead of the instructor) hold office hours for students to come by for their papers? I think a lot of students wouldn’t want to bother getting papers after the semester, no matter how they felt about the instructor.

    4. AnnieNonymous*

      It sounds like there’s an issue with this professor’s whole process. The final papers/portfolios should be assigned on a schedule that allows them to be graded in time to be returned to the students during finals week. Most professors I’ve had that taught writing-heavy courses would inform us of their office hours so we could pick up the papers if we chose to do so.

      However, I’m confused by your “it’s a whole semester’s worth of work” thought. Surely the students still have the papers saved on their computers?

      1. TAing Woes*

        The students have worked on their final papers all quarter. The instructor requires them to turn in all drafts/edits, any notes from myself or the instructor, any peers’ edited drafts, etc. along with the final paper. I don’t want to go into specifics about the nature of the project, but essentially, the students are turning in all of the work they’ve done this quarter.

    5. Graciosa*

      Okay, the instructor is a jerk, and your ability to force him to act with consideration for others is likely to be nonexistent.

      If you want to try, start with the assumption that he only cares about himself. Perhaps you can suggest that students who want to tell him about their summers will be back anyway, but that his feedback on their papers is too important to withhold for an entire summer – they’re going to want to take those lessons to heart before returning in the fall.

      I don’t know if this will work, but a play to his ego seemed – from your description – like the most likely option.

    6. TalleySueNYC*

      I’d want my paper back now, thankyouverymuch, but I really don’t think you can leave them unattended for someone to pick up. For one thing, as a student, I want it back, and I don’t want to risk having someone pick up the wrong envelope by mistake, etc.

      Because, like, what if I don’t come back to school next term? Or, what if my schedule doesn’t put me near his office?

      I think if I were you, I’d be encouraging students to go to the dean’s office and say, “I want my paper back from this instructor; he’s refusing to give it to me; can you make him mail it back if I leave a self-addressed, stamped envelope?”

    7. MK2000*

      I’m late to the party, but is it too late for them to turn in their work in self-addressed stamped envelopes? As a grad student, I had the choice between doing that to get my work back right away or waiting until the next semester to pick it up in person. Then the students could decide if paying a dollar or two in postage was worth it to avoid their annoying instructor :)

  128. TheExchequer*

    The afternoon slump has rolled around and all I want to do is go home and job search while watching Murphy Brown.

    Of course, I can’t do that since I was pretty much the only person in the office today (long story short, the coworker who is supposed to be covering for me is less than completely reliable) so the e-mails are backed up.

    I’m not a morning person but I have to get up early (thank you, wonderful Bay Area commute! /sarcasm) but some days, it’s the last 90 minutes that are the hardest.

    1. Snoskred*

      TheExchequer – I’m assuming by now you are at home, job searching and watching Murphy Brown. :) Is there any way something can be done about the unreliable co-worker?

  129. stellanor*

    How do I get my coworker to turn off her accursed desk lamp? Since she got a standing desk it shines over our shared cube wall and directly into my eyes.

    I have pointed out that her lamp shines right in my eyes and asked her to turn it off. She says sure, of course, turns it off for a few hours, and then turns it on again.

    I have turned it off myself when she leaves her desk. She comes back, says “Oh! You turned off my light, was it in your eyes?” and then turns it on again a few hours later.

    I have tried reminding her that her light shines in my eyes and gives me a headache, and she turns it off for a few hours AND THEN TURNS IT ON AGAIN.

    No matter what I do I can’t get this damned lamp out of my face for more than 2 hours at a time and I’m about to resort to being ridiculous and stealing her lightbulb.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Silly question – can you just put up a piece of cardboard to block her light? Or find a new location for it that is easier on your eyes?

      1. stellanor*

        I can’t move — well I could move but I sit in the one area of our building where everyone isn’t packed in like sardines, so moving would have more negatives than positives. I’m seriously considering finding a large, opaque decorative object to set on the cube wall, though!

        1. danr*

          That should work. And if you get something doublesided, she can’t complain. Remember, you want to hold the high ground.

    2. BRR*

      I would ask her if she might be able to rearrange her set up so the light won’t shine in your eyes.

      If not be direct, “Whenever your light is on I get a headache and can’t complete my work. What can we do to fix this?” If she has no acceptable answer respond,t “I can’t have you turn it on because then I get a headache and can’t finish my work.”

      If not get a pair of wire cutter and snip the cord on the lamb, she’ll be able to get a new lightbulb :)

      1. stellanor*

        The super frustrating thing is we’ve had both of those conversations about 20 times now and she always agrees and volunteers to keep the lamp off. Then, a few hours later… lamp in my eyes.

        I think the reason I’m so frustrated is that I’m using my words like an adult and it’s NOT WORKING. How dare it not work!

        1. fposte*

          But she has a desk lamp because she needs the light from the desk lamp for her work. Adult words aren’t magic if what they’re asking for isn’t reasonable. Instead try working together to block the light from being a problem for you so that she doesn’t have to lose the light she needs.

    3. Beezus*

      Maybe she needs it to see? Is there a way she can reposition it so it doesn’t shine in your eyes? Would she rather lower her desk than lose the lamp? Can you move?

      1. stellanor*

        Her current strategy is to tell me she’ll keep the lamp off whenever I complain and then turn it back on a few hours later. I’ve asked if she could reposition it and she just turns it off (for a brief period). We’ve had the “No seriously I can’t work with the lamp on, it is in my eyes, I cannot see my screen” conversation at least twice a week for months. She hates sitting and won’t lower her desk. If I move it would involve 1. moving away from the rest of my team, and 2. moving to an ultra high-density area with totally open seating, so I’d lose bigtime.

        I’m sort of at a loss because I keep trying to handle it by using my words like an adult and she superficially agrees and then keeps doing the thing I have the problem with. I’ve gently pointed out that she keeps doing it anyway and she apologizes, says she’ll do better, aaaaaand keeps doing it anyway. The one time my boyfriend did this we had a huge sit-down where I was like “I keep telling you that I need you to not do X. You agree to not do it and then keep doing it anyway. When you do that it makes me feel like my feelings don’t matter,” but that’s a bit much for work!

        I think it’s actually just time to put something tall on top of the shared cube wall and call it a day. I will have to bring something decorative-ish from home.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          Could she get a longer shade for it? Can the lamp itself be lowered? It sounds like she can’t work without it on and you can’t work with it on so your current solution of asking her to turn it off is not a compromise. Have a chat with her about finding a way so you BOTH can see.

        3. Snoskred*

          Stellanor – Yeah I really think you need to bring something in to solve this issue. :) She’s shown you who she is, believe her. Rely on yourself to resolve this issue as she clearly could care less. :)

          I say this as someone whose probation was extended for wearing a hat inside because a light was shining in my eyes, so this is an area in which I have some personal experience. :(

  130. AdjunctGal*

    Anyone use ZipRecruiter successfully? I’m giving it a go just to see if it will work any better. I have heard from two temp agencies thus far this week through ZR, but no interviews with companies yet. I told the temp agencies I’m only willing to entertain permanent hire jobs, so we’ll see how that goes.

  131. Anonymous Fish*

    Hi guys, I’m kind of late in the thread, but I was wondering if anyone had advice for applying for a job at the SEC? I’m re-reading the guest post on government interviews from last year… but I know that the federal job application is very specific, so I was hoping you all had tips!

    1. AnotherFed*

      Answer all the questions in the application, and provide all of the requested data – skipping or missing even one bit can get you disqualified. Don’t blatantly lie about your qualifications, but err on the side of rating yourself higher and giving supporting info in the text box – if you don’t, your application could be discarded before anyone has a chance to read about how your experience applies. Remember that federal resumes are supposed to be much longer and include details for all of your jobs, highlighting the pieces that relate to the specific things asked for in the job posting.

  132. em*

    I had over 15 interviews scheduled for an open position at my company in the last week and two of them didn’t bother to show up. No phone call, no e-mail, no nothing. I was kind of shocked by this? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      1. em*

        If it was for an interview that was to take place last Friday or this Monday, totally could be! One of the higher level employees wanted to email these people and tell them how unprofessional they were lol but obviously, we would never do that. but really, they took away an interview slot from someone else more deserving or at the very least, someone who would have showed up to the interview

  133. Stephanie*

    Late to the thread, but just found this out an hour ago. I have an interview on Monday! For a job that pays a living wage where the threat of spilled bull “reproductive material” is pretty much zero!*

    No word on the job at my current company. My boss did some investigating and found out the role is still open and a couple of the decision makers have been on leave.

    *That threat is not zero at my current job. The joys of working at a shipping facility in a semi-rural area.

    3. Graciosa*

      Congratulations – and best wishes. I hope this works out for you; I know it’s been a tough, long haul.

  134. Cali-nuck*

    Hello!

    After interviewing for jobs for about 6 weeks after moving cross country, I’ve been given a job offer! I’m super excited about the position and I am happy with the salary offered and I really feel like they offered me as much as they could.

    One question, do you think they will be upset with me if I try to negotiate on benefits? I don’t need the medical insurance they are offering as I am covered under my husband’s plan, and he has much better coverage. Could I perhaps leverage this to get a few more PTO days? How should I approach this? Is it better to not use the fact I won’t be taking the medical coverage at all?

    I know it’s late in the day but any help would be great!

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I don’t think it’s bad to ask. Some companies will negotiate salary or other benefits based on not needing the health coverage. It gets tricky, though, because with a lot of plans, they are required to extend an offer to enroll every year, so they would basically have to make you promise that you will NEVER take the coverage, and there might be a legal or contractual problem with not giving you the option every year. Depending on their coverage and the size of the business, this could be a really confusing problem to deal with.

      Personally, I have a small enough group that we are required to have X% of people enrolled in order to offer a group plan, so I will not offer any compensation for people who choose not to enroll, because if enough people did that we could all lose our coverage. It is different if they have a plan through their spouse, but then I feel like I’m making different rules for married people, which is not good.

      I don’t think it hurts to ask, though – just be aware that it might be a bit of a mess for them to find the answer.

    2. BRR*

      I think when this question has been asked the answer is it doesn’t hurt to ask but don’t get your hopes up. Typically companies worry that you’ll come back later asking for health coverage but won’t give up if you’ve asked for other things.

      I would double check what it costs for him to cover you versus your company insurance. It’s typically much cheaper to be the primary person and might more than make up for better coverage.

    3. the gold digger*

      You might want to check on your husband’s plan, though: I could have kept my husband’s insurance once I got my own but he would have had to pay an extra $100 a month as a penalty. (Which I do not think is unreasonable – why should my husband’s employer subsidize my employer by reducing my employer’s benefits costs?)

    4. Graciosa*

      I would be fairly stunned if you got anything for “giving up” health coverage.

      You can’t give it up permanently enough to make it worth anything at all to the employer (don’t forget employer penalties for failing to cover you if you later find yourself uninsured – this “deal” could cost them a fortune in the extremely unlikely event it could ever be made in the first place).

      I’m actually a fan of at least trying to negotiate, but I think this request makes you look naive. If you want the additional PTO, I would just ask for it.

      1. fposte*

        Though I believe people have been able to negotiate the employer’s contribution to health insurance being added to their salary if they don’t use the insurance–I’d go for that rather than PTO, probably.

      2. TalleySueNYC*

        I agree–health coverage is not something that I’ve ever seen a company negotiate with.
        Pay vs. vacation, yes.

        Because for one thing, they can’t deny it to you–if your husband loses his job, you’ll need to add health coverage after all, and they can’t say no then.

        And yes, if you want more time off, just say, “I’ll be leaving a company where I’ve accrued additional time off. I’d like to start with at least 3 weeks.”

        And definitely look into what happens to your DH’s premiums if he adds you to his coverage. I know someone who lost -all- of her salary increase when she discovered that the new company’s insurance coverage was calibrated to be advantageous for one person, and really, really high for 2 or higher.
        (most companies kick in the much higher premiums when you go past 3 people, but not all!)

    5. Cali-nuck*

      Hello everyone – thanks for the feedback! This is my first job in the US, I lived in Canada previously and I have no idea how the health care system works, though I am doing a lot of research.

      We’ve checked with his work and the rates won’t change. His plan is PPO and the one they are offering is an HMO and if I take it, I will have to switch all of my doctors etc, which I’d rather not do.

      I think I am going to accept the offer as is, it is quite generous.

      Thanks again!

    6. really*

      Do check what husband’s insurance says. Many company’s are now insisting that spouses who are offered insurance must take it and the employee’s insurance would be secondary.

    7. doreen*

      I know of a few places where you can get something for giving up health coverage but:
      1) It’s not negotiated on an individual basis – it’s a policy either across the board or for certain categories of employees.
      2) It’s only cash – no extra leave . And it’s not nearly as much as the employer would be paying for insurance- if I opt out , I get $3000/yr for family coverage, but my employer pays over $10,000 for family coverage.
      3) It’s not considered part of your ordinary pay. It’s treated more like a differential , so it can come off the paycheck should the employee later opt-in and also so general wage increases don’t apply. (it’s on your W2, but it’s broken out on the paycheck)

  135. Graduating Engineering student*

    This is for an entry-level engineering position at Southern California Edison. I applied, did a phone interview with someone from HR, he said he liked my skills and background and would forward my resume to the managers. Then he called me back a week later and set up an in-person interview. I’ve done a couple internships and prepped myself by looking up interview questions and STAR behavior questions. I also researched everything I could think about power utilities and technologies relating to it just in case they asked me anything about that stuff, which they did! After the in-person interview, the manager said that I should be hearing from HR in about a weeks time about their decision. I’ve read a couple reviews on glassdoor that people received an offer exactly a week after the interview so I’m trying to see if anyone has had experiences with Southern California Edison and how long it took for them to hear back from HR.

  136. random person*

    Really, really late on the thread today – but I got a callback for a second interview for a job, which will be overnight (dinner, then all day interview) and out of state. I would love some advice from you all, since it’s my first long distance AND my first all day interview.

    First of all, what to wear? I figure a suit for the day, but do I need a second suit for the dinner the night before, or would something less formal, like a printed dress and blazer, be appropriate?

    Second, to bring family or not to bring family (on the trip, not the interview itself, obviously)? The reason I am even considering it is that I have a baby I’m breastfeeding. I’m worried that being away for the full 36 hour trip will do damage to my milk supply, even if I bring a pump, while 8 hours during one day will be more manageable. Also, I’ve never been away from the kid for more than one feeding in a row, and I’m a bit concerned that she won’t eat enough over the course of two days based on the small quantities she accepts from the bottle. If my husband came, he could watch the baby, AND get a chance to see the town we’d be moving to in case I did get an offer. On the other hand, he’d be missing two days of work (which he can afford, it would just be annoying). I’m having trouble deciding whether dragging two other people on a long drive and overnight trip across state lines for the sake of breastfeeding is a reasonable thing to do when you have an infant, or whether I’m being totally over-the-top here.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    1. BRR*

      I think your dress and blazer sounds great (unless the restaurant is super fancy).

      I would decide whether to bring them based on what will be better for you. Will the baby keep you up and you’ll be exhausted for the all day interview? Will you be less nervous if they are there? Think about things like that. You need to be rested, focused, and at ease.

    2. TheLazyB*

      How does your husband feel? How old is your baby? I think your plan sounds good – it’s what I’d do in your shoes.

  137. wathuhuk*

    I finished my first week at my new job. The company, the people, the job itself are better than I could have hoped for.

    For the past two years, I worked for a terrible, horrible company. I discovered so many problems when I started that, for the first thirteen months, I worked every single weekend, almost every evening. For my efforts, I got a plant.

    I had no idea how much this awful company had affected my self-esteem. I started thinking, maybe I’m wrong to expect any sort of appreciation for my work. Maybe it’s just viewed as doing my job.

    Today, someone introduced themselves and asked which group I worked with. Then he said, “They’ve been looking for you for a really long time.”. Wow, just what I needed to hear. Now I just need to forget the past two years every happened.

    1. Graduating Engineer student*

      Congrats! Sometimes things in life are blessings in disguise and the future will come with prosperity.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I think I’m working at your old company. That’s how it is where I’m at, except I don’t even get a plant, I just get criticized for any little mistake I make and all the good work I’m doing goes unnoticed and is never enough. It sucks. I’m glad you’ve found your way out of that kind of mess. I can imagine you have workplace PTSD. You do a double take when anyone gives you a compliment because it’s literally unheard of in your working life previously.

    3. the gold digger*

      Yes! So happy for you, too. Working in a dysfunctional environment is soul destroying and it made me question myself in ways I had never had to do. I, too, am back in a good environment. I still flinch every time my boss calls me to his office, but I am getting over that.

      BTW – you know what I thought of as soon as I heard you got a plant, right? A plant at a good company is very different from a plant at a bad company.

    4. TalleySueNYC*

      Oh, I’m so glad for you!

      I make it a point often at work to say things like that to the new people; and to pass on any nice comments I hear through gossip. It’s good to know that it could have such a nice effect!

    5. Not Fiona*

      Congrats! Think of your last job like an abusive relationship. They conditioned you to think it was normal, and lowered your self esteem. Good riddance!

  138. Ruffingit*

    My job is so exhausting on so many levels. Every time I turn around, they seem to have some new thing they want us to do on top of the already impossible to complete in the time allotted work we already have. My co-worker and I are both just tired of it and we’ve both basically said we’ll complete what we can, but if it all doesn’t get done, so be it.

    My boss is still acting like a total jerk. He is employing bullying tactics such as ignoring me, keeping me out of the loop on info such as when he’ll be gone or when another important person in our office will be gone. I’m just so over the whole thing. I’m exhausted and I’m just done with petty high school tactics in a professional environment. I think it bothers him that I am not desperately seeking his attention and approval. I think my boss is doing this stuff because he wants me to care and/or because he has nothing else he can try to hold over me. I already made it clear way back when he was threatening our jobs all the time that if he was going to fire me, he should just do it. So he knows that firing me is not something I’m afraid of. I am so, so tired of workplaces where people act like they’re 15. I’m just done with that crap.

    I’ve reached the point of “this is stupid, can we not do this and instead have a functional, appropriate workplace?” I know that will never happen, but I’ve been through so many dysfunctional workplaces, it’s just getting old. Thanks for letting me vent.

      1. Ruffingit*

        Thank you!! The support I get here is invaluable, it’s very much appreciated.

    2. TalleySueNYC*

      I want you to know how much I admire your strength–I hope you can focus on the thing that triggered that for me:

      ” I already made it clear way back when he was threatening our jobs all the time that if he was going to fire me, he should just do it.”

      Do you know how strong and wise that makes you? To be able to call his bluff that way, and to be able to refuse to be manipulated, especially by fear?

      Go, you!!!

  139. Growing Pains*

    Office is having some growing pains. In order to make room for more desks, our cubes were “modified” to 6’x6′.. a reduction of ~25% of our work space. Everyone is unhappy. MAJOR DRAMAZ throughout the office.

    My cube got moved to the intersection of three walkways and right across from the break room entrance. The floor shakes every time someone walks by. (And lots of people walk by.) The break room has an eating area with a window and guess what? My desk is now 3.5 feet away from that window. Everyone who eats lunch there gets a clear view of my entire desk and computer screens. These are the things I can live with.

    What I hate is that people tend to hold extended conversations in those walkways and LEAN THEIR ELBOWS OVER MY CUBE WALL. I’m engrossed by my computer screen and suddenly an elbow comes into view. Am I out of line by being annoyed? I don’t want to come off as an uptight schoolmarm. Would it be okay if asked them not to put their arm there? Or would I be better off asking them to talk somewhere else?

    I can’t move to a different cube — there aren’t any open.

    1. Xarcady*

      Can you put plants or something on top of the cube wall, to discourage the leaners?

      We had a similar problem once when we moved to new offices and a couple of cubes were directly across the hall from the break room. In the old office, the break room was not near any work spaces, so noise didn’t matter so much. In the new space, it was hard for people to retrain themselves to be quieter. The noise level in the break room could get loud, and it bothered the people sitting nearby a lot. In our case, getting an automatic door closer for the break room helped a lot.

      So, I’d go to your supervisor and point out the noise issue of all the conversations being held right over your head. Ask for help in making that part of the walkway less conducive to stopping and chatting. It could be made narrower by moving cube walls, or putting file cabinets or bookcases along a wall. Which would also make it impossible for anyone to lean on top of the cubicle wall.

      And I’d feel free to pop up when a conversation starts and just be blunt. Polite, but blunt. “Hey, could you take the conversation down the hall/to your cube/to the break room? Thanks!” Unless you let people know that they are bothering you, they are not going to know.

      In my company, there’s one floor where when you get out of the elevator, the first thing you see is a sign asking for quiet. There are “quiet” signs all over the floor, and a couple of self-elected quiet wardens who will contact not the poor people caught whispering in the walkways, but their supervisors. It’s a bit draconian there, and when I was temporarily assigned to one of the departments up there, I don’t think I spoke to anyone for several weeks, but it was nice and quiet. You want to strike a balance between a police state, and reasonable consideration for fellow employees.

  140. JAL*

    This is really peeving me and this is probably not legal (sorry if I’m late; I had a date tonight, but that’ll be saved for Weekend Free-for-All):

    This week it was announced that our pay structure and productivity standards will be changed as of the 25th this month. I’m happy because I got a slight raise, but I’m not too happy about the productivity changes.

    We now have to be at 90% for all numbers (it used to be 80%). They rate us on how many cases we complete and how much time we spend actually doing cases. We get paid breaks, including lunch (in my state, if you work 8 hours, you get 1 hour of break time total), but our time spent score is penalized if we take it. I was figuring it out and if you work a 40 hour week, and your full hour of breaks every day, your time spent is at 87% (under the new productivity standards). That doesn’t include if you have to get up and use the bathroom or stretch for a couple minutes. I don’t think this is fair and I’m afraid it’ll start affecting my future at the company.

    Would this be worth bringing up to my manager, or even HR?

    1. misspiggy*

      It might, if you were able to find out the eternal question of whether it’s legal, and then present it to HR as saving them some legal trouble…

    2. afiendishthingy*

      Sounds like it’s probably legal- although maybe not if you’re required to work through breaks to which you’re legally entitled – but really crappy. They can’t remove the break from your time? My productivity goal is 55% because there’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t count towards it – travel time to site visits, entering notes into the billing system (which can take a really long time), most phone conversations, etc. We’re not legally entitled to breaks but if one week you attended a 3-hour training and a 2-hour committee meeting your productivity would be calculated as being out of 35 hours, not 40. Maybe if you can get a few coworkers together to talk to management and suggest something like this? Nicely.

    3. Xarcady*

      Ugh. This sounds a lot like my retail job, where we are giving sales goals every shift based on how many hours we are working. We get a certain amount of paid break time, and the sales goals clearly include that time. And if you close the store at night, you are scheduled for 15 minutes past closing–but your sales goal indicates that you are supposed to be selling stuff during that time. The one thing they don’t expect you to do is sell even more stuff during your unpaid meal break.

      I’ve pointed this out to management and been told that it simply cannot be true. What I think is that they don’t want us to take the paid breaks and just keep selling.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Are these tips for a particular industry?

      I’ve worked in educational recruiting, and schools do, in fact, want to know when you got your various degrees (and some degrees are not based on age—for example, you may have picked up a second bachelor’s degree recently, or you may have finished your PhD at some later date… having the dates helps establish some sense of linear narrative… it’s also why potential employers prefer a chronological to a functional résumé).

      Making links live is a good idea in case someone does read your résumé on a computer, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say Your resume is most likely going to be read on a computer. Lots of people like to do printouts of résumés. Every time I’ve been involved in hiring, I do a quick skim of the electronic résumés, but then print out the ones I like. And, if the candidate comes in for an in-person interview, I’ll sometimes give printouts of the résumé to whomever’s interviewing her that day.

  142. De Minimis*

    I know it’s already Saturday but I was out yesterday.

    I have to vent. My bosses, especially my supervisor’s supervisor [head of the whole facility] is really mishandling things with my departure. They’ve got me trying to train a secretary with no financial background or familiarity with basic functions in programs like Excel or Access to handle my financial management tasks [basically figuring out how much money we have for various areas and communicating that information to management.] I’m expected to teach her how to do that in around 4 weeks even though it took me a couple of years to get a handle on my job.

    That’s bad enough, but the CEO held back the posting of my job because he wants to delay our regional headquarters finding out about my depature for as long as he possibly can. I think he’d really just like the secretary to take over long term and just try to get by until next fiscal year or later. There’s a political reason behind it, there’s always a desire to keep headquarters out of our affairs and if they were to be fully invoved in our financial functions they would try to restrict or control everything [it’s complicated, but the facilities are supposed to be more or less autonomous and headquarters is really just supposed to be there to provide centralized administrative functions, but in reality it’s this constant tug of war.]

    I’m trying to train this person, but it’s really starting almost completely from square one. And I’m behing on my regular work tasks. Last week was our first week and I at least was able to put my foot down to where I will be able to have at least half the day to work on my actual job. I’m just going to do the best I can, but I’m worried that I will be blamed if they start running out of money and going negative into some of our account balances because there won’t be anyone there who knows how to balance our “checkbook.” These people are really my only recent references so I have to try to end on good terms.

    My immediate supervisor is more realistic and had me look at resumes for potential contractors the other day, I’m hoping we can try and go that route instead…if someone has at a basic level of familiarity with some of the concepts and the software, they could probably learn to perform a lot of the functions in a fairly short time. It’s just stressful, and I’m starting to hope someone calls me for an interview in person so I can cut things short and go….

    I gave six weeks notice and they’ve already squandered two of those, so it’s pretty dire.

    1. Anonymo*

      That stinks De Minimis! It just shows you made the right decision leaving. You are giving them more than enough notice and they are just pissing it away. Keep your head down, be professional, and count down the days!

  143. Not Keith Hernandez*

    Late to the party, also here to vent. What a week! A co-worker announced her leaving, and the boss has started to slip on promises. I think it’s time to find another option. It’s like when a romantic relationship is over, but one person is totally clueless. In this case the rest of us left know it’s over, but the boss remains clueless. Like somehow it will all just magically work out. Any advice from the AAM world, besides don’t mention a betting pool of “who is next to leave?” in the workplace?

  144. KAZ2Y5*

    Wow, so many comments! Hope someone is still reading ;-) I need an opinion as to whether I am overthinking something (I’m unemployed and kind of feeling desperate). All my interviews so far have had some version of how I deal with conflict with a coworker. Well, I am really kind of laid back and can blow off quite a bit without it bothering me, although I know that is not all that they want to hear. But what kind of conflict? Just a disagreement with a coworker? Or a screaming fight? And does it need to be with someone on your level, or is it OK if you have a disagreement with someone under you (work related) and how you work it out? Something that you resolve in one conversation doesn’t seem to be a conflict, but maybe that is what they want? I don’t know – someone please calm me down ;-)

    1. Sara*

      I am not someone who hires people, but I would think that hiring managers probably have your garden-variety, work-related conflict in mind here (and that they would probably be a little disturbed if you used this opportunity to discuss an incident where you got into a screaming or physical fight with a co-worker). I don’t think that something doesn’t qualify as a conflict if it is resolved in one conversation, and I think that in most functional workplaces, the types of conflicts that one most often experiences will be of this variety. I hardly ever go a week without finding myself in a situation where I’m saying “In order to accomplish Objective A, we should take Action Z” while someone else I have to work with is saying “I think that the best way to accomplish Objective A is to take Action Y.” It doesn’t make for a juicy AAM letter, but this is the kind of conflict I’m going to bring up when I get asked that question in an interview.

    2. Thinking out loud*

      I usually say that I try to sit down and talk to them about what their concern is and how we can solve it. It does not need to be a yelling match. Can you think of a disagreement with another student or roommate that you can use?

  145. Graduate... Sort of*

    Also a little late, but quick question regarding my CV.

    I was set to graduate at the end of 2014, but I unfortunately failed one of my subjects that I will only be able to re-write in June. The subject only forms a very small part of my studies, but yet I can’t actually say that I am a graduate. Any advice on what should I say on my CV when now applying for jobs?

    1. Ruffingit*

      When will you officially graduate? I had a friend who had to take one subject over the summer, but they let her graduate in the Spring and just take that one course. Her diploma reflected a spring graduation date. I say put whatever date the school will put as your official grad date.

  146. Cruciatus*

    It’d be great if someone were still reading this! A coworker is retiring but wants to stay on part-time if available (and it may be to help transition whoever the new person will be or in another area). Our employer does generally try to assist with this. She’s working on her retirement/resignation letter–should she mention that in the letter? And how’s the best way to put it?

Comments are closed.