open thread – June 3-4, 2016

by Alison Green on June 3, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,152 comments }

{ 1,152 comments… read them below }

  1. Cacti*

    I have two questions that I will post separately.

    I started a new job in local govt about a month ago. I am an hourly, non-exempt employee and I was told that I cannot, under any circumstances, gather overtime pay. I’m super okay with this, except there is a strong obligation to stay over. Out of 16 people in the dept only myself and one co-worker are non-exempt.

    My coworker regularly works 45+ hours a week by skipping lunches and working past his scheduled time. Occasionally he will log in from home on his sick days and do work and does not document these hours. I typically would mind my own business about other co-worker’s ordeals but I currently have 2 overtime hours myself. I was told to put down 40 hours on my payroll then just “take the time off” at some point. The issue is my co-worker has been solo in his department for so long that my boss has essentially given him power and control over decisions, and it’s never a “good time” to leave early or take a long lunch. If I ask my boss he kicks it back down to co-worker to handle, which is crazy to me. Co-worker is not my boss.

    Co-worker is scheduled to be out all next week and there’s an expectation for me to work 11-hour days (we come in an hour apart so I open and he closes) to cover his shift and I’m ticked. I don’t want to feel obligated to work without being properly compensated for my time, and I know what they are doing is against the law. How do I push back in a diplomatic way?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I would send an email to coworker and boss and say something like “All, I just want to clarify expectations for next week. If I’m covering coworker’s shift that will be an 11 hour day every day for me. However, I’ve been instructed that I can’t work overtime. I’m finding this guidance contradictory and want to ensure we’re not running afoul of any labor regulations.”

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Cacti,the fact that you work in government means that you may have different rules than the private sector does (because government employees are conveniently not subject to the same regulations on this issue); a lot of the advice to you below isn’t taking that into account! But Katie the Fed’s advice here is good — it’ll get you the info you need either way.

    2. Marcy Marketer*

      I would say: “If I stay until X time, I will need to log Y hours for today, which I’m worried might land me in the realm of overtime. Is this what you’d like me to do?”
      Coworker: “Just take Y extra hours off another day and don’t log them for today.”
      “Hmm… I’m afraid that would put us on the wrong side of the law! Legally, I have to record all the hours I work each day because I’m non-exempt.”
      “Only if someone finds out/I do it all the time and we’ve been fine.”
      “I’m sorry, I’m not comfortable breaking the law. I’m going to stay until X time today but I will have to log those hours accurately for today.”

      Then turn around and walk away. To avoid taking overtime, leave Y hours early the next day or whatever. If this doesn’t work, you should report them to the department of labor. You actually also might just skip my script, and report them right now. If you push back, everyone will know it was you that reported them, but if you just report them without making a fuss first, no one will know it was you which might make your life easier.

    3. TCO*

      I just wanted to note that since you’re a government employee, it is legal for them to give you comp time in lieu of overtime pay. But that comp time has to be at the 1.5 rate (just as pay would be) and your department is clearly in violation. Katie’s advice is great.

      1. TowerofJoy*

        Does this depend on location? I’ve worked for several governments in several states and it was always 1 to 1 ratio.

        1. J.B.*

          Are you exempt? Exempt govt workers can get comp time but it has been 1:1 in my experience. (And discouraged by HR)

        2. brightstar*

          At the agency I work for, the compensation depends upon your pay grade. So, if you’re below a 25 then you earn comp time at 1.5, but if you’re over a level 25 you get it at 1:1.

        3. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

          I also work in local government, am non-exempt, and receive comp time on at 1.5. Exempt employees can receive comp time at a 1-1 ratio.

        4. doreen*

          According to this https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs7.pdf , comp time for non-exempt government employees has to be at time-and-a-half . But FLSA only covers hours worked over 40 in a week. If a government employer (or any other employer) pays or grants comp time when you haven’t gone over 40 hours worked, that can be 1:1. I know some of you are wondering what I’m talking about, so I’m going to give examples. If the normal workweek is 35 hours* , FLSA allows an employer to give 1:1 comp time or your straight hourly pay for the hours between 35 and 40. If Monday is a paid holiday, and you work 10 hours daily from Tues- Fri, you have only worked 40 hours and aren’t entitled to time-and-a-half under FLSA for the extra hours.

          * I have never in 30 years had a job with a normal workweek of 40 hours. It has always been either 35 or 37.5.

      2. RPCVme*

        Could you expand on this? I’m also a govt employee and often comp time is taken instead of actual overtime, but since it’s just leave, it’s accumulated equally as to how it was earned-i.e., if I was approved for and worked 2 hours outside of my normal hours, I would earn that 2 hours as comp time. Is that different from what you mention?

        1. The Rat-Catcher*

          I’m a state government employee – we have job “codes” of 0, 1, and 2. 2’s, like me, are non-exempt, and when we earn comp time it is at the 1.5 rate. 1’s are exempt from FLSA, but our CBA has negotiated that they be given comp for their overtime, but at a 1:1 rate. 0’s are upper management and don’t qualify for any overtime.

      3. Brett*

        For non-exempt employees, though, that comp time must be formerly tracked and compensated as compensatory time. Compensatory is literally cash pay banked as time.
        If the OP is not clocking those hours, then those hours are not being appropriately tracked.
        (The reason for this is that if the worker is unable to take compensatory time, then that time must be paid out in full cash value.)

    4. finman*

      Why is boss not covering for co-worker? It’s his responsibility as boss to cover a 1-man department and either open or close.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      You may want to look into whether this is actually legal in your country (state? province?). It may not be, especially the part about skipping lunches.

      If, for example, you’re in California, you can’t work overtime and then take the time off at some point unless the time off makes up for the 1.5x pay they owe you for the two hours you worked before.

      It sounds as if they’re trying to treat you like exempt while keeping you non-exempt. Annoying.

      1. TowerofJoy*

        I think this is only in certain places. One for one was the rule everywhere I’ve been in gov.

  2. Cacti*

    Question 2:

    Co-worker has been running our department solo for a little over a year. Once I got hired on we were supposed to share the workload and responsibilities but he is a control freak (as stated by my boss) and can’t let go. He and my boss also discuss things that impact my workload or responsibilities without me and often have private email exchanges or emails about our department without involving me in any of it. Am I right to feel annoyed by this?

    As stated in my other question, boss has given co-worker a lot of power because he one-manned a department that is meant for 2+ people and I often feel like I have two bosses when co-worker shares my same title and level. I have a prior working relationship with both people from a few years ago as a temp worker so I don’t know if this plays any part.

    1. NJ Anon*

      I would request a meeting with them and discuss your concerns. Then follow up with an email with any decisions that are made.

    2. mdv*

      How long have you been there? It takes me longer than a month to “learn” how to delegate… it might just be that it is so habitual you’ll need to keep reminding them to include you on all the stuff.

      1. Mabel*

        This is true, but it’s also critical that your boss be on the same page. If he doesn’t require your co-worker to delegate work, and co-worker doesn’t want to, it’s not going to happen. I like the idea of calling a meeting to talk this over. That may help. Send an update to let us know how things go!

    3. Spice for this*

      Cacti, Q2 – I’m sorry you are going through this. I don’t have any advice for you. I just wanted to say that I feel your pain since I have been in the same situation (past company). I was very frustrated since boss discussed things that impacted my workload with co-worker but not me. They were friends for a long time and had worked at another company together.
      I tried to bring this up with my boss and to have him include me in the meetings or emails. But boss was not going/willing to change! There were many other negatives working at that company, so I had a find something else and leave!

    4. Undine*

      A lot of this may be habit. It can take a while to teach people to remember to involve you. I think it’s worth discussing with your boss only, asking her to include you as much as possible — don’t set up a meeting for it, but the next time you have a checkin with your boss, bring it up as a concern, that you would be more effective if you were looped in more. Over time as they come to trust you, they will include you more. Your boss may also not want to overwhelm you with everything they are doing at the beginning.

      In addition, is this affecting your work in any way? Are you finding out things you need to know in a timely fashion? If not, then you can proactively send email on your projects — “I’m planning to work on the xxx project this afternoon. Are there any emails or communications you two have had that I might not have seen?”

    5. J.B.*

      Micromanagement, alas is rampant in government. I would talk with your boss about expectations. Also if there is anything you can start to do that is different from coworker that is good. If you are both doing the same tasks he’s probably more likely to micromanage than if you have entirely different responsibilities.

    6. nofelix*

      I would record some specific examples of where leaving you out of the loop resulted in problems for the department. Then ask to be included so these sorts of things don’t repeat. Leave out any mention of being annoyed or feeling you should be included because of seniority.

  3. Fabulous*

    How do you interview for two positions at once? I just had a phone interview for both an Office Manager position as well as two part-time positions (Exec Assistant and Events Coordinator) that could be combined into something full-time too. Each position is so different, how would I even go about preparing? This is assuming I get asked for a second interview… *crosses fingers*

    1. Sunflower*

      Are these at the same company? It actually sounds like at the core of all these roles, they are very similar organized, responsive and keeps communication very open, sets and sticks to deadlines.

      I’d decide which role you want the most and maybe lean a little towards that way but I would focus on the skills that all 3 encompass.

      1. Fabulous*

        Yes, all positions are at the same company; a private K-8 school, actually. They are hiring a FT Office Manager, PT Exec Asst, and PT Events Coordinator. They are considering combing the two PT positions into a FT one.

        While on the surface the roles sound similar, the duties each handles are vastly different. The office manager runs the office at the middle school and is student-centered. The exec asst reports to the head of the entire school and board and is more administration-centered. The Events Coordinator is part of the Development department and runs the fundraisers, so is more donor-centered. :/

        1. N.J.*

          I think it depends on the specific situation. So if I were evaluating which position to focus on I would consider the following:
          Was the phone interview combined to discuss all three positions? Was the person conducting it helping to make hiring decisions for all three? Which one are you the most excited about? Do you personally have experience in something that would make you a stronger fit for one of these? Conversely, did the interviewer explain when scheduling you for the phone discussion what he or she found exciting about you as a candidate? Since the responsibilities sound a bit disparate, Sunflower’s suggestion to identify core skills that would apply to all three is a good starting point.

        2. AnotherHRPro*

          Hi Faulous. I love your name. You can still prepare for both the same. Instead of focusing on the job responsibilities, think of the skills you need for each position and be prepared to explain situations where you demonstrated those skills. For example, I would guess both jobs need strong organizational skills, ability to professionally deal with the public or key stakeholders, work under tight deadlines and pressure, etc.

          Good luck!

    2. Fabulous*

      Aaarrrrrrggggggg so this question was moot. They are not calling me back for another interview :(

      WTF AM I DOING WRONG!?!?!?!

  4. Journal Entries*

    My last day at OldJob is today! I’m trying to get my vacation payout included in my last paycheck, scheduled for the regular pay date, as legally required in Michigan, and I’m getting some resistance. They say that the way they’ve always don it is the week after your last paycheck. How can I nicely tell Payroll that the way it’s always been done isn’t right?

    1. Rebecca*

      I live and work in PA, and when I left my first job, they paid out my vacation pay on a separate check. At my current job, if there is a small bonus at the end of the year, it’s always submitted on a separate check, but I believe that has to do with tax rates. Perhaps this is why?

      1. Liane*

        Not a lawyer, but the problem wouldn’t be whether vacation was paid separately from the last wages–just that both wages and vacation were paid out within the time specified by the law/s.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Is your main concern when you get the money? Or that you may not get it at all?

    3. Viktoria*

      Are you sure that’s a legal requirement? I’m not finding anything to that effect with a quick google search- admittedly, not a foolproof method. Maybe just make 100% sure you have the right info before you push back too hard. This is the only things I’m seeing on michigan dot gov / lara :

      “I had unused vacation time when I left my employer, can I receive payment for this time?
      Agency: Licensing and Regulatory Affairs

      The employer is required to pay fringe benefits in accordance with written contract or written policy, if the company policy has a pay-out provision which states that unused time will be paid to you when you separate your employment, then the employer would be obligated to pay you for the unused time.

      The employer would not be legally obligated to pay you for unused time if the company policy does not address the issue.”

      Even if you do determine it’s a legal requirement, I would personally hesitate about pushing back very strongly if it’s really only 1 week delay. That’s up to you, though.

      1. Pwyll*

        This. I’m not aware of a Michigan legal requirement to pay vacation unless you have an employment agreement/handbook that says otherwise.

  5. interview attire question*

    Do you think this dress, paired with a blazer, is okay for an interview: https://www.theory.com/miyani/F0001602.html?%5BProductVariationAttribute%20id%3D20236017%5D=001

    I know dresses aren’t common for interviews, but my hourglass shape really does not work with a lot of pants or pencil skirts (hips fit, waist doesn’t or vice versa) and I feel most confident in a dress. The dress goes to my knees in person (compared to where it hits on the model), so it doesn’t look quite as short when I’m wearing it. A-line dresses work best for me because the traditional sheath interview dress is so unflattering and I have the same problem as pencil skirts.

    I’m interviewing at a lot of start-ups and creative companies for a mid-level position where the dress code is more lax, so I thought I could probably get away with a dress. Thoughts?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I think it looks professional and appropriate for an interview, especially if you’re looking at a less conservative company/industry.

      Break a leg in your interviews!

    3. EP*

      Looks awesome – to the point where I wish it came in my size!

      It looks like a suiting dress so should be easy to pair (and will sit nicely under a blazer/jacket).

      Most of my jobs have been in NFPs or in a casual (wear jeans and a nice-ish top or leggings and a dress every day) places – I wore dresses to interviews and got the job. As long as you are comfortable and its appropriate, I think you’re good to go.

    4. Nancypie*

      In my opinion from a fairly conservative field, this dress is completely fine, paired with a conservative shoe. Keep the blazer on!

    5. DoDah*

      I’m a “creative” in SW–I’ve worn lots of dresses in interviews–perfectly appropriate! Bonne Chance!

    6. kittymommy*

      Yeah, in all the fields I have worked in, mostly all conservative, this with a blazer would be fine. In fact, some of the directors and higher-ups where I’m at now (gov’t) have interviewed in dresses with blazers and no one thought twice.

    7. Tex*

      Nice dress! I may have to get one as well.

      With a blazer it should be appropriate for most interviews (unless it’s for high level banking or similar) However, it looks a bit short on the model (she might be super tall). If it’s an appropriate length on you, go for it! (Also, opaque tights may help, but it’s summer.)

    8. bridget*

      This dress with a blazer would read “suit” in virtually all contexts, and work great. The only exception would be in industries where, for whatever reason, people are very particular about suits being necessary, and the suits worn to be “real” suits (can be a sheath dress + blazer, but usually sold together as such to qualify). Unless you’re interviewing at a top law firm in a conservative east coast city, or on wall street or something, go forth with confidence!

    9. ShoeRuiner*

      I agree, this looks professional. Sounds like you and I have the same body type, so I totally get it. The dress looks a little short on the model, though. I personally would want it to fall closer to my knees, for sitting.
      Wear a blazer, conservative shoe and accessories, and you’ll rock it!

    10. Joanna*

      I probably wouldn’t suggest it for something super formal like a law firm, but for a tech or creative company that looks great.

    12. Kate the Little Teapot*

      I wear A-line dresses for interviews all the time. Knee length or below is important and absolutely no cleavage of course. Blazers really bring the level up, and nice jewelry like pearls or silk scarves. I work as a community manager and am mid-level so I’m used to the dress code being lax and being expected to be “creative” if that makes sense. I think a solid color, as you’ve chosen, is smart.

      I wore a grey blazer and a grey printed dress that had fake pearls sewn to the neckline to an internal interview (done over video skype, so they didn’t see my legs, but still) and I found out I was the one person who had bothered to dress as if I was meeting one of our Fortune 500 clients and that was impressive to the interviewers (I didn’t get the role but was told how well it was thought of).

  6. Unsolved Mysteries*

    Is it possible to “not care” about your job and still do a good, above average job? If you are a manager, can you tell who “cares”?

    I love the field I work in and I am passionate about preventing XYZ diseases. I feel and have been told that I am an excellent worker and do a great job on all projects. When I used to work with ABC diseases, I did an average job at best. I cringe when I remember what a crappy worker I was.

    I was recently promoted, changed units, and I am even happier in this new role. We have a huge multi year assignment beginning next month and as I look at my old team I seriously question their ability to succeed. 80% of this team does not give a shtick about doing a good job. Management has hinted at cutting those who are not up to par (LOL, suuure), so I hope everyone steps up to the plate with this project.

    1. Kai*

      I don’t think passion is necessarily required to well in many jobs, but having some level of personal investment in what you do can definitely make a difference. For me, being personally interested in a project’s success can make a huge difference in how focused and motivated I am.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I’m a copy editor for an advertising agency. I’m not necessarily passionate about our clients’ products, and I’m not even really passionate about advertising. But I love finding and correcting errors, solving problems related to phrasing or word choice, and I really like the people I work with/for — so I’m personally invested in this company’s success.

      I definitely do better work when I’m happier with my job, but “caring” comes in a lot of forms. Some people also just have incredible work ethic and take pride in everything they do; I’m not really that person, but plenty of people who really don’t like their jobs manage to do a damn good job.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yes, this too–forgot to mention this, the thing you’re passionate about might be the “micro” aspect rather than the “macro.” I like admin work and like doing a good job at it, but I’m not all that picky about what field I’m doing that work for, beyond obvious things like not wanting to work for a scam company.

      2. Kate the Little Teapot*

        I am the same: I work at an agency with mostly Fortune 500 clients. With one exception (a television company) our clients are not something that I’m passionate about. However, I’m passionate about marketing, I’m passionate about helping customers, and I’m passionate about improving process. So that makes me care a lot about my job. I also feel invested in our culture even though I don’t have tons of close friends at work – we support remote work and diversity and those are things that are important to me.

    3. Cube Ninja*

      I’ve always held the opinion that there’s room in any team for people who truly enjoy what they do/want to advance/etc as well as folks for whom it’s “just a job”. The fact that a person approaches their position as purely an exchange of labor for money doesn’t preclude them from being a top performer in my experience, but it does mean that those folks are less likely to go above and beyond key responsibilities.

      It’s ultimately about personal motivation and work ethic; I know people who are extremely enthusiastic about the work, but just aren’t very good at it. Conversely, I know people who are “meh”, but excel in their field.

      In a management role, it’s pretty easy to identify who’s who, but how you manage each person is important. All things being equal, someone with a lot of drive is going to be much more willing to take on challenging projects than someone who’s just there for the cash (exception: commission-based compensation).

    4. Rowan*

      I think there are different ways to “care”. You might care about the end goal (e.g. eradicating a disease or bringing a great calendar app to the world), or you might care about not letting your co-workers down, or you might care about praise from your boss, or you might care about money (e.g., making a certain sales commission goal). All of these are valid ways to care about a job. Maybe it would help to get to know your new team a bit better as individuals and find out what motivates each one of them?

      Also, I think there’s a happy medium of “caring” that enables the best job performance. Caring too much can be as much of a problem as caring too little. People who care too much can have trouble discussing things calmly, or letting tasks go that someone else really needs to do, and so on. And they’re so much more prone to burnout.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Caring too much can be as much of a problem as caring too little. People who care too much can have trouble discussing things calmly, or letting tasks go that someone else really needs to do, and so on. And they’re so much more prone to burnout.

        This has gotten me into trouble before. And I know other people who have dealt with it as well.

        I like how you point out there are different ways of caring. For me, working is about earning a living, not about the work. I haven’t had a job where that is the case (yet). I know if I do a good job, I’ll get money–but beyond that, my passions are mostly outside; they do not typically extend to my daily activities. It’s work. It’s not supposed to be fun, although I have certainly had enjoyable moments with coworkers.

    5. kbeers0su*

      I think there are plenty of people who don’t care about their jobs in terms of having passion for them. My current role is fine- it’s with a company I like, doing work that I know is important. But am I passionate about this? Not really. I don’t get super excited to come to work, I don’t worry over the impact of decisions in an unnecessary way, etc. But I am very thorough in my work and dedicate to providing good service to my clients because I was brought up with a strong work ethic, and that’s personally important to me. And my reputation as a professional.

      1. kittymommy*

        This. Having a passion for the field you’re in, or not having e, doesn’t need to affect do a good job. In my mind those are two separate things. And people can have a great passion for what they do and still be a crappy employee with a bad work ethic. A good manager can hopefully tell the difference.

      2. Minion*

        That describes me as well. I don’t hate my job, but I don’t get super-enthusiastic about it either. I want to do well at my job regardless of what it is, so I do it as well as I can and invest extra time and effort when the situation calls for it, but feeling stoked about it? Nope.
        If they lowered the age of retirement to 40, I’d retire tomorrow.

    6. Kelly L.*

      I think you (general you) just have to put out the amount of effort that you would if you were passionate about it. Maybe it’s that you have to be passionate about something to work that hard, but it might be the cause itself, or it might be getting paid, or it might be impressing your boss, or any number of things. I think passion for the cause can be the fuel for working one’s butt off, but that the fuel can come from other things too.

    7. A Definite Beta Guy*

      Depends on what you mean by “good,” I suppose. Different jobs have different performance requirements. I don’t need someone super-super passionate underneath to pull files from a website, I just need them to show up at 8AM every day and DO IT.

    8. Girasol*

      In discussions of employee engagement that I’ve read, the way a manager should evaluate who is engaged, and who “cares,” is to look for discretionary effort: works late (if exempt), assists other workers, does work needed but for which the worker is not specifically responsible. Were you doing any of that when you didn’t care? It might have labelled you as someone who does.

    9. Anonymous Educator*

      [A]s I look at my old team I seriously question their ability to succeed. 80% of this team does not give a shtick about doing a good job. Management has hinted at cutting those who are not up to par (LOL, suuure), so I hope everyone steps up to the plate with this project.

      I wouldn’t frame it as “car[ing]” but more as… doing your job! And it sounds as if they’re not doing their jobs.

      1. Unsolved Mysteries*

        Sadly, you are correct.

        We’ve skated by so long, you didn’t really have to do anything. Very few targets you had to hit. With this new project, everyone and their mama will know when someone hasn’t done their part. Kinda scary!

    10. Manders*

      I think you can be indifferent to the company’s overall mission and still care deeply about helping your coworkers or building your professional reputation. The only times I’ve ever felt like not caring was holding me back at work was when I was actively resentful of my company’s mission or my boss’s success–those were signs that it was time to move on.

      I work in marketing now, so while I agree with my company’s overall mission, what I care really deeply about day to day is improving our marketing strategy and making the numbers on the charts go up. Attracting clients is part of the company’s mission, but it’s not the only thing it does, and I don’t have to care deeply about the intricacies of the teapot manufacturing process to convince people they need a teapot.

    11. NJ Anon*

      I can’t. Maybe it’s just me but if I stop caring, I lose focus and my productivity takes a hit.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      To me, passion about work comes and goes. I look at work ethic. Is someone committed to doing a good job no matter what? A long time on one assignment is not for the faint of heart and I do not think “passion” is enough to carry anyone through it. You might be surprised at who shapes up and who walks out. The people who see a long term project through to its conclusion are not always the same people we think should be able to do this.

    13. Chriama*

      Haha, I’ve definitely commented on this before. I would rather have people on my team who care about doing a good job in whatever they do than who personally care about the social mission they’re supporting. Obviously both is better if possible, but work ethic trumps emotional dedication in my book.

    14. Formica Dinette*

      “80% of this team does not give a shtick about doing a good job.”

      I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I have had multiple jobs where I did not care about the industry or work but was great at what I did because I cared about doing a good job. I hope you continue to be happy in your new role!

      1. Vix*

        Yes, I completely agree. Caring about the job and caring about doing well are two very different things.

    15. Joanna*

      I work in a field that most people have never heard of and even those that have would be unlikely to think of as a dream job or something to get really passionate about. How I look at it is that feelings of passion or a driving sense of fascination may or may not show up in any job and it’s a futile exercise to try forcing such feelings. What I can control and be driven by is making my work align with my values. I can choose to act with integrity and professionalism by turning in good work regardless of how I feel about the actual content of the work.

    16. Unsolved Mysteries*

      Thank you all for your wonderful insight!

      I was definitely confusing passion and work ethic when they can be two separate things.. Now that I am in a new role, I’m moving away from disease prevention into something more general…but it is clear to me that my work ethic pushes me everyday. At the end of the day I will always have my work ethic!

    17. Fish Microwaer*

      I’m totally disengaged from my job and my field but I’m the top performer at my office because I just pride myself on doing a professional job. I’ve never been passionate about the field but for now it provides an adequate income. Had an interview for something better paying with more autonomy the other day, although I’m unsure if one aspect of the job is a deal breaker.

  7. Sandy*

    Update!

    My boss featured in one of the worst boss Christmas roundups once upon a time. She made a point of giving everybody else a Christmas gift but me, and then pointed it out in front of everybody.

    Well… Today was her last day.

    Her assistant went around earlier this week, collecting money for a gift. 50 bucks each! I refused, not only because of the incident above but because of the principle of not gifting up.

    Lo and behold, the boss comes to me yesterday, demanding to know why I hadn’t ponied up for a gift to her and “who do I think I am?!?” for not putting 50 bucks into the pot (her assistant isn’t a big fan of discretion).

    I am rather proud to say that I kept any and all snarky comments to myself and just smiled.

    …while mentally remembering her inclusion on AAM’s “worst of” list…

    2. 42*

      :-O

      I wish I could animate the open-mouth emoticon so that the mouth opens wide and endlessly, because that’s my reaction to your note and the gall of your (FORMER!) boss.

      I’m SO PROUD of you for ‘just smiling’. Be sure to keep that smile going as you wiggle your fingers bye-bye as you watch her leave forever.

    4. Batshua*

      You’re a better person than I am. I might’ve wrapped an empty box in a printout of the AAM entry or something equally petty and immature.

        1. J.B.*

          I think this was the best AAM article ever. Awesome to Sandy to be a part of it and to give us her update!

    6. SophieChotek*

      I cannot believe your OldBoss (or anyone) would have the gall to demand a gift! Good for you!

    8. Quinalla*

      Wow! I am so amazed by the gall of some people! Good for you for handling it so well when she confronted you AND for not contributing. Thanks for the update

    9. Liane*

      What goes around…

      Alison, could you put this into a separate update, please? This is one that should have no chance of being missed by folks who aren’t into the Open threads.

    10. harryv*

      These types of extravagant gifts to managers is insane. It happened at my partner’s work too. They would collect money from a team of 7 for an LV bag! If that happened to me, I would shut it down. Gifts should cost no more than $5 / person.

    13. mdv*

      I can’t even find the words to describe how *awful* I think it is that the soon-to-be-ex-boss’s assistant TOLD her about your lack of contribution. I probably would not have resisted answering “remember when…” with a perfectly calm and not snarky tone.

      OR: “I don’t really believe that it is a good idea for employees to buy gifts for managers, sorry.”

    14. Master Bean Counter*

      You are much a better person than I am. I would have looked at her and said, “After last Christmas I thought we were under the mutual agreement not to give gifts to each other.”

    19. designbot*

      Each person was asked to put in $50?? That’s got to be some going away gift!

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        Like…I could see myself digging deep to donate $50 to a struggling colleague who had a medical or financial catastrophe, especially if they were a great person, but for a goodbye gift to a MANAGER, who snubbed me to boot, hell to the no! Also WHO goes to someone to ask why they didn’t contribute? So tacky and entitled.

    20. Joanna*

      In what universe is $50 an appropriate contribution for a gift for a departing co-worker?!? In my office it’s somewhere in the $2-10 range!

      1. Stardust*

        Right!? I cannot figure out what’s more crazy, that they thought $50 each or that the assistant told the boss that she wasn’t electing to contribute!

    22. Mander*

      FIFTY? EACH?!?!

      I barely even spend that much on my ENTIRE family at Christmas, let alone some snarky boss! The nerve!! Good for you for sticking up for yourself.

  8. Eager Job Seeker*

    I got another job! I leave my current job on Tuesday and I’ll be keeping my title (Staff Assistant) but at the health policy center of a large think tank. The role is primarily scheduling/support for two senior academics there, as well as event planning, and if everything goes well I’ll also be doing social media for them. Anyone have any advice for making sure I get off on the right foot to set myself up for getting better work in the future/supporting older academics who might be really stuck in their ways? This position partially replaces a scheduler of 30 years, so. Big shoes to fill.

    1. Quinalla*

      Congratulations! Don’t have a lot of advice except I’d go in with an open mind and try out the way they want to do things, but make suggestions that you think would be helpful to them. You don’t want to come in and try to change everything, but making a suggestion here and there that could really improve the way they do things, while be willing to learn their current system should start you off well and show that you can be valuable. And do what you can to make it easy for them to change if they end up being the types that resistant to any change, but I’d try to clear yourself of assumptions going in, maybe they will be looking forward to a fresh start too!

    2. Barefoot Librarian*

      I’m kind of the youngster on my campus (I replaced a 25 year vet in the job) and I mostly tried to learn how and why people had been doing things a certain way before suggesting any changes. I think people are more open to change if they can tell that you respect the history and context that created a process or policy in the first place. A bit of respect for tradition goes a long way. That and I pick my battles. It might take a while to change things, but it’s worth the delay to get everyone (or most everyone) on board rather than resentful.

  9. Random CPA*

    Each summer our company allows the relatives of employees to do paid work part-time doing simple tasks like filing for the summer. My direct report is managing 4 of these temporary workers for a project. One of the workers is local and could work beyond the summer so the company was thinking of allowing her to stay on to continue the project.

    HR came to me yesterday and said that due to something that happened while I was out last week, they weren’t going to extend her beyond the summer timeframe, and that the situation was weird/personal/confidential. It almost seemed like the HR person was a little taken aback by the worker’s situation, not that it was a typical issue like being habitually late or absent, insubordinate, type of reason.

    I’ve been checking in with my direct report regularly about the project (and everything had been going well), how all the workers are doing, etc, so I was surprised when I asked her if anything had happened with this worker last week that she said yes, the worker had come to her with a very personal situation. The worker told her about the situation and that she had to leave early because it was impacting her work, though my direct report said she couldn’t tell her work was being impacted. She thought the situation was so personal that she went right to HR. My direct report wouldn’t tell me the reason, and I didn’t press her too hard. But when I asked if this situation could impact the worker’s performance in the future, she said yes, that she could be sick and it could come up again. Her use of the word sick makes wonder if HR is discriminating against this worker in some way. Like if she has a terminal illness or is going through drug rehab, I’d hate to see them deviate from their original plan to extend her beyond the summer.

    Am I justified in being annoyed that my direct report didn’t come to me first so I could decide if the worker’s situation needed to be explained to HR? If it was rehab or a terminal illness, I would have just let the worker take time off when she needed it and not gone to HR.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      It sounds more like your employee is more of a team lead than an actual manager; if so, I could see how she chose to handle it this way.
      She could have been concerned about letting the temp leave early when she might not actual have the power to say “yay or nay.” If there isn’t an obvious plan of action for when you are out, she might not know who to report it to. That kind of thing.

      Anyways, if you’re comfortable and have some power, you should talk to HR and tell them your concerns. Let them know that by not giving you the information about her situation, you’re assuming the worst (due to the word “sick”). And if that hunch is right, it makes you worried about discrimination.

      Good luck!

      1. Random CPA*

        She is a little more like a team lead, though she has one direct report (not the summer workers) that she manages. However, my boss was there the day I was out, and she works with him daily so I think she could could have easily gone to him. He tends to think the same way I do about letting people take time off and not involving HR.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Eh! Sounds like your employee didn’t want to wait for help to deal with the situation. Given all the vagueness, I don’t think you are able to judge if the situation was able to wait or not. I don’t think that annoyance is justified.

      All the secrecy of “I can tell you it’s something big and personal but no more that that” would annoy me though. And your concerns that it some kind of borderline discrimination for medical reasons is worrisome.

    3. R Adkins*

      Not sure if the direct report is female, but I have also heard sick used when someone finds out they are pregnant and dealing with morning sickness, doctor’s appointments, etc.

      1. Random CPA*

        That didn’t cross my mind because of the way the HR person said it was a weird/personal situation. I’ve been pregnant since I’ve been at the company and the company is very accommodating towards doctors appointments related to pregnancies. Which is why I was thinking it might be a medical condition with a stigma attached, like drug rehab or AIDS.

    4. Meg Murry*

      Do you trust your HR to be honest and non-discriminatory? If so, I think you have to just let this go as confidential and not your business but trust your direct report and HR to handle it without giving you all the details. It sounds like the summer employee when to your direct report (I’ll call her DR) in confidence, and DR said “I need to talk to HR to get some guidance on this situation” – which is absolutely an appropriate response as long as your HR is competent.

      As far as the “letting the employee stay on” part – has this been discussed already with the employee? Or were you still in the process of getting it approved but hadn’t actually offered it to the employee yet? I don’t think it’s discriminatory to not offer a position to a temp that doesn’t actually exist yet. Or maybe the employee told HR that she won’t be able to continue after the summer due to the situation.

      At this point, I think you should focus more on whether the employee will likely be staying for the rest of the summer, and if not does that make your direct report short-handed? Are these 4 positions “nice to have, helps us stay on top of our filing” positions? Or are they “if we didn’t have all 4 and help continuing into the fall we aren’t going to be able to complete this project” positions?

      1. Random CPA*

        My understanding is that the worker did not go to my direct report in confidence. She just went to her because she is her point of contact at the company. The way my direct report explained it to me, she used her own judgement to elevate it to HR.

        As far as whether or not I trust HR, I just don’t know. When people are let go, I never know why. This company does have much higher turnover than other companies I’ve worked for. I just don’t know if they have a tenancy not to hire people based on disabilities.

        As for the summer worker, she has said that she would like to continue on past the summer, though no one mentioned that to her because we wanted to see how she was performing. So I don’t have a concern that she may leave earlier than planned. However, even if she did, we could get by with 3 people no problem.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s reasonable to say to your employee, “In general, I’d like to be in the loop on this sort of thing, so unless it’s an emergency, I’d rather you wait until I’m back and we can discuss it. HR is better for issues like XYZ.”

        2. OhNo*

          It sounds like you need more information than you have right now, honestly. Is there any way that you might be willing to go to the part-time employee and ask about it? You said specifically above that she didn’t tell your direct report in confidence, so it’s weird that both your direct report and HR are refusing to give you any more info that might help you understand. However, if she felt comfortable enough to tell your direct report, she might be okay telling you as well.

          Heck, if I were in that situation, I’d want to have that conversation with someone up the chain. Telling the person, “We were thinking about offering you a longer stay, but because of something you said HR isn’t sure you’d be the right fit. Would you care to talk about it a little more with me so I can help advise them in the right direction?” seems like a nice way to give them a head’s up that something they said/did gave a weird impression to others at the company, and offers them a chance to explain.

          1. Random CPA*

            Now that the (possible) damage has been done, I don’t feel like I need to go to the worker and find out what the issue is for the sake of just knowing. And I also don’t want to put her in an awkward situation. But I’m just hoping my direct report didn’t ruin the workers chances of having her time with us extended by going to HR over something I may not have felt the need to bring to their attention.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe it’s me. I would expect my direct report to tell me what the problem was. If you had been there the problem would have been reported to you anyway.
      It sounds like she did not know what to do so she went running to HR. Maybe she could use some coaching as to when to drag HR into a problem. I assume that part of the reason why she went to HR is because you were out for a week? Maybe I am reading that wrong.

      1. Random CPA*

        She went to HR because I was out for a day, the day the worker had the issue. My boss was there though, and she has a good rapport with him (and he’s generally thought of as a nice and understanding guy), so I feel like she should have gone to him instead of HR.

        Another reason I’m annoyed by this that I didn’t mention in my original post is that my direct report is someone I’ve brought with me to the last two companies I’ve worked for and she’s worked with me for over 7 years, so she knows I’m very accommodating toward people’s schedules and any personal issues they have. It just rubs me the wrong way that she bypassed my boss and me and went straight to HR, especially if I may not have made the same call.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I think that if it were a simple as letting someone take sick leave, etc., she WOULD have brought it to you.

          Two people whom you ought to be able to trust (someone who knows you very well, and the HR person with all their training and information about discrimination) believe that this is a private matter that you shouldn’t know about. Trust them.

          I’m wondering if you’re really upset because you don’t know. And you may need to just deal with that, because you are not actually entitled to know the medical details of this person’s life and health–especially since she did not tell -you-.

          1. TootsNYC*

            Maybe that’s unfair of me, to think that an understandable curiosity is behind this reaction you’re having.

            But if these two people are willing to discuss it without, but are very carefully NOT telling you the specifics, then I think you need to leave it alone.

            If you’re worried that these other people aren” trusting to your willingness to work around someone’s medical issues, I think you can tell them that: “I’m in favor of allowing a lot of flexibility to help people do their jobs despite medical issues, so I hope you’re factoring that in. I’d hate to see this person lose out on this opportunity needlessly.”

            1. Random CPA*

              If she had gone to my boss, and my boss thought it needed to go to HR and I was still out of the loop, I would not be bothered. I’m more bothered that she skipped the chain of command and went straight to HR. Now HR is not extending the position, and my direct report’s use of the word “sick” makes me think it’s because of something medical and that the worker is being unfairly discriminated against. My direct report was a good employee at the prior two companies but this role she’s in now is a little different and she’s made some questionable decisions and had some odd lapses in judgment since she’s been with me at this company (which I have brought to her attention and she agreed with me after I’ve pointed these other issues out). I’m wondering if this situation is another lapse in judgement on her part. I would just never go to HR over a situation involving one of my employees without first consulting with my boss.

              1. TootsNYC*

                I just think that HR’s description means this is something that’s best kept really private–like, really really private.

            2. Random CPA*

              Just to add…I would have been fine with her going to my boss because I was out of the office that day and it would have made sense for her to go to him.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I get why you are irked. I still think that speaking to her about how you want problems handled from here forward is a good idea. And you may want to contemplate if you want to bring her to your next job if any. It sounds like the time for that may be drawing to a close.

          1. Random CPA*

            Yes, I definitely will be talking with her about communication in general (after thinking about it this weekend, I remembered she had mentioned going to HR about another smaller issue that she did bring up later and it was something she definitely should have gone to my boss about); though I won’t specifically mention this issue because given her judgment lately, I could see her going to HR about it, not to get me in trouble, but to try and make things right somehow. I agree with you about not bringing her to the next company. I definitely will not be. She’s made me look bad quite a few times and has caused more work for me due to her mistakes. She knows all this (because I’ve brought these issues up early so they could be corrected), and she does care and try to improve, but at this point, I’m just over working with her. It’s odd how someone can do well in one role and struggle in a similar, but slightly different role.

    6. TootsNYC*

      If it was remotely medical, I think your report/team lead should NOT have brought it to you.

      I think you ought to be able to trust HR to not break any ADA or employment laws, especially since they were very careful to not give you medical details.

  10. Aella*

    My mother has emailed me a link to a list of specialist recruitment agencies, and I am going to call the two who say you need to call first, I am…as soon as I stop wanting to be sick. How should I start off the call? “Hello, My name is Aella Dudley-Forsyth, I am a recent Graduate in X with Y experience and I am interested in a career in Z. I was wondering if you would like to receive my CV?”

    (The last bit is what I’m having trouble with.)

    1. Emilia Bedelia*

      Instead of asking whether they’d like to receive my CV , I’d ask something like “do you have any openings/positions open for teapot polishing specialists?” And if they say yes, “may I send you my CV?”. Saying “a career in z” doesn’t really help if “z”is broad enough to cover many different areas- I think saying the position that you’re looking for is better.

    2. Jules the First*

      You call and say ‘Hi, I’m Sansa Stark and I got your details from Catelyn Stark who thought you might be able to help with my job search. I’ve recently graduated with a degree in political negotiation and I’m interested in pursuing a career as a royal advisor, which I know is an area where you’ve had a lot of success placing candidates. Would you be willing to take a look at my resume and let me know if you hear if any openings which might be a good fit?’

      Good luck – specialist recruiters are awesome, once you get past that scary first introductions phase!

      1. Snork Maiden*

        “Hi Sansa, we’re not currently hiring any royal advisors, but our wedding and event planner has made an unexpected departure and we’re hiring a replacement.”

    3. Anon Moose*

      I don’t have a different suggestion but just would like to offer support as someone else who used to feel ill before making cold calls and no longer does. Doing it more makes it better. Breathe, do a couple at a time, reward yourself between each one. You can do it.

  11. Minion*

    Yay open thread and I got here early!
    Can we continue the MBA conversation from another thread earlier this week? Is getting an MBA going to be a colossal waste of time and money for me? I have a B.S. in Accounting. I wanted an MBA because it’s more general than a masters in accounting and I thought if I ever wanted out of finance/accounting it would be more helpful than a very specific masters like that. Plus I want to get my CPA designation.
    Dan said if you get an MBA from a school that isn’t a top school you’re wasting your time. Is that always true? What if you don’t want to join one of the Big Four accounting firms, but just want to maximize your earning potential in your current area?
    And are MBA’s from online programs looked down upon in general? I’d love any opinions or facts about this.

    1. Mozey*

      In my opinion, it depends on what you plan on using the MBA for. If you have a clear path, and people you have talked to in similar roles that you want are telling you that an MBA is needed to be taken seriously, then maybe.

      A full-time program is a big commitment. I’m currently going part-time so I have the experience and the MBA. My employer has an amazing tuition remission benefit so it really isn’t costing me too too much and there isn’t a commitment to stay after finishing the degree. If you can find a situation like that, it could be worth it.

      As for rankings, in my opinion, if you want to go to a T14 school that could afford you a better alumni network. If you need the MBA to get promoted at work (government, etc.) or you have a path that isn’t traditional (not a big four consulting firm) it doesn’t REALLY matter where the MBA is from as long as it is accredited and locally known where you want to work.

      Online is another big debate in the field. There are legit online MBAs like UNC, but the majority have lax admission requirements and are generally looked down upon. You could do a hybrid online/in-person program but I wouldn’t do a purely online program. It is too close to a Strayer/Phoenix situation.

      Bottom Line: Talk to some people who have the job you want. They will have the insight you want. And don’t go online.

      1. Minion*

        Well, if I don’t do it online I can’t afford it. I earned my B.S. at an online university (NOT University of Phoenix!), that is fully accredited, generally well respected and non-profit. The admissions aren’t very stringent, that’s true, but I think this is more for people who, like me, have earned their degrees later in life rather than being fresh out of college in their early 20’s and with little work/life experience.
        My main, immediate, goal is to have enough credits to earn my CPA designation, which means I need to have the MBA (or some type of master’s) in order to qualify for that. Aside from that, though, I don’t have a specific job I want. I’m in my early forties and I don’t know what I want to do with my life! That’s fairly sad, I know. I enjoy my job as a finance director for a smallish nonprofit, but I just don’t know where I want to go from here.

        1. Elle*

          Check with your state to see if the credits from the online university would be accepted. If so, also look at how your program integrates with CPA preparatory courses. I will say taking the CPA exam was SO different than any kind of studying I had EVER done before and it took a lot of time for me to figure how to study effectively since its a different kind of beast!!

          1. Minion*

            Really? Thanks for that bit of knowledge! I’m not the best at studying in general, so at least I know going in that this will probably be tougher for me and maybe I can adjust accordingly.
            I’m going to check in with my school and see if they can help me understand the credits I’ve received. I may have enough and just not realize it. I’m woefully ignorant about these things. Thank God there are people on here who have been through it and have excellent and useful advice!

        2. finman*

          You say that you do not want to work for a big 4 accounting firm, if that is the case I don’t see the huge desire to have your CPA. I myself do not ever envision myself being a full-time accountant and thus have no plans to sit for the CPA. I do feel that a MBA or MS in some other business focus like finance/accounting will be beneficial to you if you choose to move into a bigger company/expanded role. Almost every manager/director of finance role I have seen (even many sr analyst roles) have Masters/MBA preferred and many say required. Plus, moving out of accounting, the MBA program should help you expand your thought process out of accounting focused and into how a business should be run, strategy, etc which has been really helpful myself. Having been in the working world for a while, I wouldn’t assume you need to wait the 5+ years after undergrad that is considered standard. I took 1 online class (marketing) during my MBA and would consider that to be the class I gleamed the least from. The best learning outcomes I received was from the open discussions of perspectives, topics, homework, etc that you participate in during a live session and thus would advise avoiding doing an online MBA for this reason.

          1. Sydney Bristow*

            You can do plenty with a CPA that doesn’t involve the Big Four. You can also work for a mid-size or smaller accounting firm and go in-house to do finance. My dad got his CPA, worked for a mid-size laid back firm, and ended up getting his first CFO job at a client company. You can also do other types of consulting, in-house finance, etc. with a CPA–it’s really not limiting.

          2. Minion*

            Most of the job postings I’ve seen while idly browsing various job sites have mentioned a CPA as being desired, if not required.
            Also, there are quite a few local accounting firms that require a CPA, so even if I wanted to join a very small, local firm having a CPA would be beneficial.
            I fully realize the benefit of having my CPA designation and I’m going to get that eventually. I just thought I needed a graduate degree to get it, though from what I’m seeing here, that might not be necessary.

            1. J-bunny*

              Google your state’s board of accountancy website. Each state has different requirements to be licensed. My state requires 150 credits but it doesn’t have to be a masters degree.

              Also I’m sure that it depends on what industry you want to end up in but I’ve asked a lot of different accountants and they almost all said that a masters in accounting doesn’t matter that much if you have your cpa.

        3. Meg Murry*

          Rather than do it online, could you do it at a regional/state school in an evening program? I was accepted to an MBA program that was run by a state university in the nearest big city, but in addition to classes on the main campus they also have evening sessions at held at the regional community colleges so people who are currently employed don’t have to drive as far or miss work. From what I understand, one of the main draws of this kind of program is that you would be in class and doing projects with a lot of people that are currently employed, like yourself, and that can lead to excellent networking opportunities down the road. Even though the classes are held at the community college (and are a hybrid of in-person and online) they are taught by the same level of faculty as the main campus, and the degree at the end said “State University”.

          I wound up not going because that was in 2008 when the economy tanked and I didn’t want to spend the money, but I thought it was a good compromise program between online and a super expensive full time top tier program. I think it was 3 years, year round – so a little longer than a full time program, but not by much, and that also allowed you to spread the cost over 3 years and keep working while doing it.

          Also, how many more credits do you need for the CPA? As stated below, you don’t need the masters, you just need the credit hours – so unless the difference between the Masters or MBA and the credit hours is tiny, you probably don’t need the whole shebang on the MBA right now. If it’s only 2-4 classes, I’d just do that and then transition into working on the CPA designation. Taking classes that could count toward an MBA in the future would probably be a good idea, but isn’t totally necessary.

        4. Master Bean Counter*

          Honestly what I did, going back to school and getting my CPA at 37, was to find the quickest route to get there. For me that was a one year online MSA program. I could have converted at the end and added a second year and gotten my MBA. But in the real world I’ve seen that most openings advertise for some one with a CPA or MBA, not both.
          Getting the CPA credential is a real career booster. I’ve increased my salary 69% since getting it. I also never wanted to go into public accounting. That said the one thing you need to look very closely at is the work requirements for the License. They vary in each state. In Washington state I had to either work for a CPA for two years or find one to sign off on my work. Being that I was in government and nobody in county had a CPA, I was trying everything to find somebody that was willing to sit and discuss the possibility of a sign-off.
          Lucky for me I moved to Arizona before I finished testing. Here the requirement was 2 years under a CPA or 5 years under a CPA like person, and my county auditor could sign off for me.

          1. Minion*

            Work requirements? Hmmm, all I’ve looked at are the education requirements. I like to think I would meet any work requirements, but it’s possible I don’t. I’ll have to go and look that up.

            2. Natalie*

              Definitely look that up. It’s usually a specific requirement that you work under someone else with a CPA, not just a general work somewhere requirement.

      2. Hallway Feline*

        So would the online MBA at USC be considered good or bad in this way? It has laxer standards of admission, but allows full-time business people to attend and get their MBAs (my parent did the online/in class hybrid, but his company was much more flexible and accommodating about school hours).

    2. Christina*

      I can’t speak to the value of an MBA specifically (though I work at a school that has a very, very well-known business school, and I am not a big fan of it), but re. the online vs. in-person, it’s becoming much less of an issue than it was even a few years ago. A lot of very reputable schools (including the one I work at) have online Masters programs that are nearly or equally as well-regarded as the in-person programs, and for all intents and purposes, it’s still a degree from that well-named school.

      To me, it’s like the difference between taking day classes from a regular program vs. evening classes through a continuing studies program. For good schools, the difference should be negligible, and again, you’re still getting the name of the university on your degree (if the name is the thing that matters to you).

    3. Elle*

      Do you have enough undergrad credits to sit for the CPA exam in your state? Personally, I had enough general education / business credits to sit for the exam, but needed the accounting credits since my undergrad wasn’t in Accounting. I went back for MBA with a concentration in Accounting and did not go to a top tier school. The CPA is a much bigger win (for me) and has had a bigger salary impact for me. The MBA is more a nice to have, but the CPA has been a requirement as I’ve taken on more management level positions. I’ve also made the switch from accounting management to consulting and still consider the CPA to have more weight than the MBA. Not to say the MBA isn’t key in certain fields, but I think really depends on what you want to do.

    4. harryv*

      It also depends if you are MBA material. I know people who got an MBA for the sake of it and it didn’t really help them much in their career. I also feel that getting an MBA will help if you plan on switching jobs. If you plan on staying at your company due to pension or whatever, an MBA will not do you much good unless there is a promotion that is contingent upon the degree (very rare…).

    5. MBA anon*

      I graduated from a full-time, top 15 MBA program 3 years ago. I’ll echo the other comments that it’s absolutely essential that you know what it is you want to get out of it, and whether that is realistic. For me, I was a career changer. I was in a finance-related industry and wanted to get into actual corporate finance, but I had a liberal arts degree. The career switch would have been tough enough without an MBA, but impossible with the salary I would have needed, given that I was already making good money (but hated the specific niche I had developed a career in).

      I could have done a local part-time option, but what was REALLY valuable about the top-tier full-time option – and basically what I got the MBA for – was the on-campus recruiting. Having awesome companies come to you for jobs is pretty amazing. I walked away with three internship offers, including the one I took, which turned into a full-time offer. I received another full-time offer as well. It was a huge commitment and massive financial investment to take two years away from the workforce and pay a boatload of tuition, but I got exactly what I wanted out of it.

      If leaving the workforce for full-time isn’t an option, there are great part-time programs as well. However, be warned that not all of them give you the same access to recruiting that the full-time students get, because getting jobs for the students who don’t currently have them is a bigger priority, and employment rate for full-time students is a large component of a school’s rankings. So that’s something to be aware of as well.

      Bottom line, if you’re going to make the investment, you need to: a) know what you want from the MBA and verify that it will get you there and b) choose a school based on what they’re going to do for you, and if you’re not convinced, don’t waste your money.

      1. the_scientist*

        I’m Canadian so it’s a bit different because there are fewer schools offering MBA programs and the accreditation/reputation thing is a little bit more straightforward. But from the experience of my peers I would say that you NEED that on-campus recruiting/internship experience that is available to full-time students. I know two people who did MBAs (and they both started basically right out of undergrad so it’s not like they had a great amount of work experience) who both got internships that turned into full-time jobs. In one case, that full-time job came before he’d even finished the MBA; he switched to part time to finish the degree and the company picked up the tuition plus paid him a signing bonus that he was able to throw at his loans. This would not have happened with a part-time or online MBA. The other person went to work at a big consulting firm where he makes enough money that he’ll pay off his loans in a couple of years….in exchange for a 100% travel schedule and brutally long hours.

        On the other side of the spectrum, MY MIL did her MBA part-time later on in life- she was a stay at home mom for many years and did it while at home with her kids as a way to update her resume and skill set. It ended up serving her very well, but the payoff came much later- as a part-time student she didn’t have the same opportunities for internships, and she had to break back into the workforce after years as a SAHM, at a job that didn’t really *require* an MBA.

        I *also* know someone who is an MBA/CFA/CFP….and he did the full-time MBA at a prestigious school. He said it was the best investment by far he’s made in his career, but the real value was in the networking and group case study work that he got to do as a full-time student. So take from that what you will.

    6. A Definite Beta Guy*

      So, I can just speak to my limited experiences and anecdata. Mother Dearest works for one of the biggest companies in the world, in one of the biggest divisions. She says they do not consider any MBA outside top tier worth their time.
      That might just be their company culture.
      In my company, in my department, we have two MBAs. They’ve had MBAs for some time. One is working a position considered clerical, the other is entry-level.
      My FIL has an MBA, but his company paid for it, and it was clear he needed it for his work. It is not top-tier.

      If you’re accounting, I would recommend pursuing your CPA and CMA designations first. As you get more senior, you’ll find out if you need an MBA to continue forward. A lot of businesses are moving Accounting towards a Co-Pilot role that an MBA might be useful for.

    7. Funny! ...from the other day*

      I saw your comments in that thread and I posted replying to someone with “auditor” in their name using the anon name I am using now. I went to a well known private b-school for undergrad some moons ago but am doing my MBA online. The work is challenging, the professors are all adjuncts who have plenty of industry and teaching experience, and I’d say 80% of my classmates are already in the field they desire to be in. I’m not even half way into my program and I received a job offer a week ago paying 40% more in salary and the tuition reimbursement perk will cover the entire remainder of my program. I had only been really job searching for about a month too. I am in finance and have no desire to be in corporate finance or investment banking – I too just want to maximize my earning potential in my area.

      I have seen some schools offer MBA/MSA – I think my alma mater does. But I would rather be a CPA with an MBA (and accounting concentration) than an MS in today’s world. The MBA is considered “generic” but you can have a concentration and build from that. Most of the people up the chain in the company I am moving on to have MBAs and I am pretty sure many of them went back to school to “check the box” to help move up, nothing wrong with this of course. Plus the company offers a great tuition reimbursement perk so why not. I don’t think most people in MBA programs want to be a CEO one day.

    8. Artemesia*

      If you have a job in accounting and you are looking to move up and perhaps more broadly within the organization then having an MBA might be helpful. But if you are inexperienced getting one, especially an on line one, will just be an anchor around your neck. An MBA from a top school can be a ticket; an on line MBA is as likely to be a liability and any MBA without lots of prior experience (unless from one of the top 5 schools) is unlikely to make you more marketable.

      1. Minion*

        I’m really not looking to move up in my current organization. I’m the Finance Director and the only place to go is Executive Director, but I’m pretty certain the current ED is planning to stay here till she dies. Not that I wouldn’t apply if she did decide to leave – I definitely would and having an MBA would be a great asset at that point, but I’m just not seeing that as a possibility right now. So, I’m looking to move into a similar position with a different organization maybe. Not right now – I’ve only been here just under two years, but I’m planning for the future.

    9. Sibley*

      I’m a CPA, and the whole thing about masters degrees actually really annoys me. No, you don’t need one, you need the required credits to take the CPA exam and a lot of people are too lazy to get those during undergrad (yes, there are some legit reasons, but you can get 150+ credit hours in 4 years. I graduated with 157).

      In accounting, what matters is a) are you eligible to take the CPA exam or b) do you have a CPA license. Straight out of school, you need to be eligible or have a really good plan to become eligible. That’s why a lot of people are getting Master’s now, because they’re only leaving undergrad with 120-130 hours, so a masters is a really easy way to get up to 150. Once you’ve been working for a few years though, actually having that license is what matters.

      I’ve always heard that a masters of accounting is pretty much useless, but a masters in TAX could be very helpful if you’re in tax and plan to stay there. A MBA is different, but in general, as an accountant (internal audit to be precise, and former public accounting), I don’t care. I care if you have a CPA license or something equally applicable to your field. I care if you’re competent, and not a pain to work with. I do not care about your degree.

      In term of moving around – everything in business comes down to money at some point. Being an accountant can open doors, and where you go is really a matter of what you want and the effort you put into it. If you want to move up into more general leadership, then a MBA may be helpful. But I know a lot of CPAs who started in public accounting and have ended up all over the place.

    10. Enginerd*

      The top schools command a higher salary but that’s really limited to a select few (Harvard, Stanford, Yale). Online degrees don’t normally call out the fact you earned them through a distance program and I would think the name of the school would carry more weight than the fact you took the classes at home on your computer. It’s true the name does matter so give some consideration to where you go. I’d avoid the little known schools and the those with the university of Phoenix stigma.

    11. Sydney Bristow*

      Well, if you really want to get your CPA, you’re going to have to take more classes in accounting anyway (assuming you don’t yet have all the credits required), so it’s likely your MBA concentration will be accounting. There are numerous Accounting Certificate programs that would give you the credits you need to sit for the CPA exams that are a LOT cheaper than an MBA, but just as valuable, IMO. Since you already have a business background, it sounds like the primary purpose of getting your MBA will be to “buy the network.” If you decide you want to go into finance or banking, a top-tier MBA might be a good idea for you. Overall, it’s likely that the investment to complete your CPA will be net-positive a lot faster than getting a general MBA from a second or third-tier program.

    12. Former Retail Manager*

      Just my personal opinion…..if you want to remain in the field of accounting and you have to choose between an MBA or sitting to get your CPA license, go with the CPA. It is the gold standard in the field of accounting and a Bachelor’s degree w/ a CPA license is preferred over an MBA in most accounting positions. As someone else said below, your earnings will likely increase greatly once you get your CPA. Also, my personal opinion, MBA’s are a dime a dozen these days. You can always go from specific to general, but it’s much harder to go from general to specific.

      As others have said downthread, you don’t have to go to work for Big 4 once you get your CPA. In fact, if you are 30 or older, and not already working for Big 4, it can be difficult to get your foot in the door there anyway, but that’s neither here nor there. There are plenty of opportunities for CPA’s in government, industry, small and mid-size accounting firms, and non-profits.

      As for obtaining your CPA license, most states (not all) now require 150 college credit hours to enable you to sit. If you have a Bachelor’s you already have 120. To get the remainder you can to go your local community college and pay faaaarrrr less than you would at a larger school, get your additional hours, and sit for the exam. The additional hours do not have to be accounting or business related, although they certainly can be. You’ll need to check with your state’s board of accounting to determine the requirements to sit for the exam in your state as virtually every state does have minimum requirements for classes that you have to have taken. In my state, all of the classes were covered in my undergrad degree.

      Best of luck!

    13. TheCupcakeCounter*

      What you should pursue depends on where you are working, what you want your career path looks like, and what state you are in. I have a BBA in Accounting and live in Michigan where the CPA requirements are very strict (150 credit hours so practically everyone who wants to go the CPA route gets a Masters, 1 year of experience in Public Accounting, and CEC’s as long as you want the certification current as well as passing the exam). I work in corporate accounting and haven’t needed the Masters or the CPA for my particular job and most of those around me either don’t have it or don’t feel it was that useful for what they go (I run the general ledger and do all month end transactions as well as monthly and weekly reporting).

      If you have a desire to work in audit, tax, or corporate financial planning then having an MBA and CPA will definitely be helpful. As for MBA vs MSA I would go with the MBA for the reasons you stated above and as long as you go to an accredited not-for-profit school you should be fine. Many state universities have great MBA programs that are structured for employed individuals (so evening, weekend, and online classes). Big thing here though…work for at least a year before betting your MBA (unless you are in MI and want a CPA then go straight though because that is the norm here) so you don’t have the over educated/under experienced problem. That time you take can help in a lot of ways. It can help you decide what you want to pursue with more clarity and give you guidance about what is best for your chosen path and many employers have educational assistance to help with that aspect.
      Another certification that is (in my opinion) more helpful for corporate jobs would be the CMA especially if you work for a manufacturer. CPA is the big name in the financial world (and it is very valuable so don’t think I am knocking it) but people tend to overlook that CMA is just as valuable if you work int he private sector.

    14. Jen*

      I think there is a lot of value in a non top 15 program, as long as the price is right.

      DH went to a top 50(ish?) MBA program (think: SMU, BC, GW, Wash U- good schools just not top of the b-school pack) that has a strong alumni network in our area. He got a 60% tuition scholarship and because of where the school was, could continue to work at his old job part time (he made $55k over the program at his old job, and $30k during his summer internship). Because we stayed local, I stayed at my job and got 2 huge promotions that would never have happened had we moved for the MBA.

      He had a 3-; month gap of unemployment after graduation, then landed a start-up type gig at about the same $$ he was making pre MBA. After a year, the company folded and he was unemployed for 3-4 months again. Then he landed a job that he has absolutely flourished in, due in part to connections from his startup and from his MBA program. He’s been there 3 years and is making now triple what he made pre-MBA.

      So for him, it was worth it. He took about $40k in loans out, mainly so he didn’t drain savings while in school (we had just bought a house). There is about $15k left on the loans and we have the cash to pay them off if we had to, but have other priorities right now.

    15. Mazzy*

      Interesting, I posted a similar question on this thread, my concern is coworkers who have MBAs but don’t need them. Our jobs are highly skilled but no need for an MBA, just experience, and I feel like the MBA hurt them in that they both act like they are exempt from “low level” work. But much of what they consider “low level” leads to higher-level stuff. Every time I take on one of the lower level tasks it leads to a higher level project connected to it, but they don’t see the connection like that. In the end, I am progressing they are stagnating because they’re only willing to work on the high level stuff. Unfortunately for them, alot of the higher-level stuff does require skill, but doesn’t make more money or impact customers as much (think forecasting, if you’re wrong, you can blame it on many factors).

    16. Janice in Accounting*

      I work as an accountant and have an MBA but am not a CPA. My experience has been that many companies won’t consider an accountant who isn’t a CPA, so I would definitely recommend you do that first.

      I did my MBA online but it was through an accredited brick-and-mortar university that offers a few online degrees, not a purely online university. I’ve not had anyone question the veracity of that degree.

      If you need more accounting hours to sit for the CPA exam (I know some states require more than a BS in Accounting), then do an MBA with a focus/emphasis on accounting and kill two birds with one stone. But definitely sit for that CPA exam.

    17. Alphabet Soup*

      Background: USA, MBA, CPA, PMP, non-public accountant. Went into corporate accounting, moved around a bit (USA and expat assignments to Europe), branched into special projects (M&A, Financial IT Systems, Transformations), have had managing responsibility and hiring authority, 11 years in career

      Answer: It all depends (unsatisfying, I know) but generally speaking (assuming you want to stay in accounting) the CPA is worthwhile. As a hiring manager, it is shorthand for achieving goals (the test is a pain in the butt plus all the other hoops), deep enough subject matter knowledge, and ongoing commitment to the field (CPE every year). As an actual employee myself, I have used the CPA to shut up blusterous consultants who try to “educate” me (read: pad billable hours through meetings. Ugh.) as well as (successfully) justify compensation at the higher end of eligibility. Often the hiring manager has to negotiate the offer salary with HR compensation specialists and anything objective like licensure makes it much easier to justify.

      Now the MBA one is more tricky. I do not agree that it needs to be a top school but each choice has pros and cons which factor in. Top schools are great if a) the cost makes sense given your personal financial situation and b) you want to “reset” your career path. If you want to pursue an MBA for other reasons (personal knowledge, positioning yourself for broader responsibility down the line), then I think there’s more flexibility. My husband and I both have our MBA’s and we got them for different reasons (me for future marketability, knowledge gaining and broadening since I knew i was not a “pure” accountant but more someone who wanted to do other things but have a strong financial foundation, he wanted to “reset” his career and start over in a new field) — without knowing more about your career aspirations and personal situation I don’t think you will find the right answer here.

      I will say this – I do think long term an MBA is more valuable than an accounting masters. The accounting masters as you become more senior in your career falls away (assuming you dont want to be always strictly in accounting) due to its specific nature. The MBA is more general and can be used as a supporting factor for taking on broader responsibility (think cross functional, etc.).

      Good luck.

    18. AliceBD*

      So, I don’t know if this is helpful or not, but I wanted to reply in case it was. If it’s not, feel free to ignore.

      My dad used to do sales, but he wanted to travel less and was offered an accounting position. His degree was a BS in economics, and he realized he didn’t know enough accounting so he got his Masters in Accounting about 20 years ago, around age 40. He started doing accounting jobs and has continued. He was hired at his current company over a decade ago as controller, and his title is now treasurer and I think he’s a VP. He did not take the CPA exam, although he was eligible, because he knew he did not want to be a CPA. It has not been a problem for him to get jobs without the CPA certification; he has always been in the internal accountant for a company. And he lives in a small town, and works in a nearby college town; he’s about 2 hours away from anywhere that has a downtown with office buildings more than 3 stories.

    19. Joanna*

      If you need the knowledge but don’t particularly need the qualification, other options may be appropriate. At some online learning sites like Coursera you could learn most of the things you’d learn in an MBA with a well chosen selection of free/cheap online courses.

  12. Anne*

    Is there a tactful way to say in my review with management that I don’t have a desire to move into a manager position? I love the company and don’t want them to think I’m lazy or don’t have goals.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Can you position yourself as wanting to become more of a subject matter expert? It’s a way of ‘moving up’ without being on a management track.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’ve always said “I like doing things. I don’t want to manage people who are doing things.”

    3. ann perkins*

      That’s definitely not a thing that makes you lazy – I was made a team lead, so I don’t manage anyone or have direct reports but am still involved in process/high level convos. You can phrase it that way!

    4. Gene*

      That depends heavily on the culture at your workplace and industry. Some places are fine with this, others are “Move up or move out.”

    5. Mabel*

      Since you mention goals, perhaps it would be helpful to tell them what your goals are, rather than what they aren’t (becoming a manager).

        1. Marvel*

          Well, in that case, they may end up thinking you don’t have goals because you don’t. If that’s a problem for you, then that’s what I’d be focusing my energy on, rather than their perception.

    6. Bibliovore*

      Just don’t tell your manager in your review that you have no desire to do more than your job description and that despite being in an upwardly mobile position, you would prefer not to be considered for any promotion or additional responsibilities. Oh, and this is not the meeting to announce your work life balance or your future plans to get married and have children. Yes, this really happened to me. Exempt position, no overtime, 3 Saturdays a year and at the top of the pay scale.

      On the plus side- perhaps outline what your are doing or planning for professional growth or competencies in your profession.

    7. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I always start off by framing what my goals are. When I’ve been asked if I would be interested in a management position, I have been very honest with my boss that I don’t think management is my strength and would prefer not to manage again. I was a manager at my previous company and hated every minute of the management side of it. I don’t think I was good at it either.

  13. Barefoot Librarian*

    I’m not looking for advice per sa because I’ve already “done the thing”, but I realized this morning that I had 55 hours of vacation to use before the year ends (some will roll over until July) and I’m already taking four days off next week for Disney World. I almost let it go Elsa style, but I finally ended up emailing the boss man to ask if he’d allow me to take one or two days here and there for the next two months and try to use what I can. I feel like such a jerk though. I’ve only been here a year and I mismanaged my vacation time. I DID have my mother die from ALS earlier this year and vacation wasn’t really on my mind during her illness, but it feels like a lame excuse.

    Would you guys have just let it go in this situation or tried to fit in vacation even if you were being a pain doing it? My husband’s view was that my vacation is part of my compensation package and therefore not taking it would be leaving money on the table (they don’t cash out unused vacation).

    1. Christy*

      I’m confused about when your year ends. And I certainly don’t let vacation go. Honestly from what you’ve written, I don’t se what you’ve done wrong here.

      1. Lily Evans*

        It’s probably in reference to the fiscal year, which ends in June for a lot of academia related places. A bunch of my coworkers are having the same problem! Everyone’s trying to figure out when they can take time off in the next few weeks so they don’t lose it.

        2. Barefoot Librarian*

          Exactly! I’m in academia and our fiscal year ends on June 30. Our schedule for the next two months looks like Swiss cheese with vacation being taken. Of the 55 hours, about 27 will roll over to July, but I lose even that on July 31.

          1. Bibliovore*

            If you academic, this might be the “slow” time and you can schedule your vacation in 2 to 3 day bits without too much impact on your co-workers. Try not to hog Fridays and Mondays.

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      If I were your coworker I would 1.) understand that with family occurrences this year you didn’t have a chance to plan vacation so you have some left, and 2.) would much prefer you take it off in 1-2 day spans rather than all at once because it would disrupt my work-flow much less, assuming I would have to cover for you when you are gone. Plus, after taking off the four days next week you will only have 3 days of vacation left, so I think it’s no big deal.

    3. Marcy Marketer*

      I have a similar vacation package, and my first two years I did not take all of my days. I had not planned my vacation properly and saved too much of it until the last month it would expire. While it is part of our compensation package, I felt I should have planned better to spread it out more, so I resolved to do better this year. This year, I planned out my whole year’s vacation and now I only have two extra days (we have a very generous package of 20 days).

      So I would say it depends on your boss and your workload. Could you take a week off in July without it impacting your work or affecting what your boss thinks of you? That gives a nice month gap between vacations. Do you feel like you need a vacation? You could also talk with your boss and say something like, “I just realized that I have 6 days of vacation still on the table. I’d like to use it before it expires. I was thinking about taking Fridays off for the next month to use up all my vacation– will that work?”

    4. harryv*

      I always take a vacation to recover from the vacation. If you are taking 4 days off for Disney World, take another 3 days off. Just shoot an email to your boss saying, “Hey Lucy, it looks like I will lose vacation if I dont’ use it by July. I’m wondering if I can take some supplemental days off the vacation I have planned for next week?” Your boss may not be happy as it is late notice. Most manager prefer you plan out your leaves instead of using them all before they expire. Plan better in the upcoming year.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, could you just tack 1-2 more days onto either the beginning or end of your currently scheduled vacation time (to relax, to pack and do laundry, etc), and that just leaves you with 1-2 more days?

        I think a big part of this is whether you have the kind of job where you work independently and it’s not such a big deal if you are there as long as your tasks get done, or if your boss has to arrange coverage for you when you are out.

        If you don’t need coverage and aren’t in a position where end of year = crazy crunch time, then taking a couple more days sprinkled over the next two months is probably not a big deal at all, and it pretty typical in the summer everywhere I’ve ever worked. If you do need coverage, it’s probably best to go to your boss and say “Hey, I don’t want to leave these days on the table but I know it’s last minute. Could you tell me which days would be best for me to take off?” and then just take the days he suggests as a staycation day. Honestly, a random Tuesday off in the middle of a workweek to sleep in, run errands and maybe see a movie refreshes me more than an actual vacation sometimes.

        1. Barefoot Librarian*

          “…could you just tack 1-2 more days onto either the beginning or end of your currently scheduled vacation time (to relax, to pack and do laundry, etc)”

          That is a fantastic idea.

    5. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      If you’re working a standard 8-hr day, you’re talking about, what, 7-8 actual workdays? It’s totally normal to have that much left near the end of the fiscal year. You’re already taking 4 days (which, yay!), just sprinkle in a few 3-day weekends (and maybe also half days, if that’d be less disruptive to your workplace), and you’re fine. This is just not that big of a deal.

    6. BRR*

      It sounds like you get a lot of vacation time. I get 22 days a year and had to have a conversation this week about using some because my manager reminded my team we have to be proactive in using it so we don’t reach December and haven’t taken enough. If you get a lot of days, this is probably a normal occurrence. Do not feel bad about using your benefits.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I feel like such a jerk though. I’ve only been here a year and I mismanaged my vacation time.

      You’re not a jerk for wanting to use compensation that is part of your employment.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Exactly this. Plus, major family happenings are not at all a lame excuse for losing track of details (although I don’t think this is nearly as egregious as you seem to be blaming yourself for, Barefoot Librarian!)

        1. Barefoot Librarian*

          I’m usually harder on myself than anyone else is lol. Thank you all for the great advice. I’m the head of my department so it’s good to plan ahead and be reachable, but I don’t have to get coverage (fortunately!). I chatted with my boss and he’s given me the thumbs up to check the calendar for days when at least a couple of my department will be in to answer questions if I’m gone. I expect I might lose a day or two but not a big chunk.

          My benefits package is very good here (including tons of sick days and generous vacation allotments). It’s one of the perks of working for a smaller university. We aren’t paid as much but they try to take care of us in other ways. I’m definitely going to be more careful next year. I think part of the problem is that I’m just not used to having so many vacation days!

      2. TootsNYC*

        Also: figuring out the pattern of time off and workload, crunch times, the passage of a year, yada yada, isn’t actually that easy–you’ve ONLY been there a year.

  14. Long time lurker, first time commenter*

    How do you know if a job is right for you? Obviously taking into account things like salary, benefits, etc. But beyond that what do you look for? I haven’t interviewed in a while and I had a good phone interview the other week. The in person interview is first thing next week. It’s further away than I’d like for a daily commute (I would have to move sooner rather than later), and they seem like a great start-up mentality… but I want to make sure as best I can that I’m not moving into a super toxic or dysfunctional culture. What should I look for?

    Any suggestions appreciated. I love this thread, it’s been so helpful. Thank you!

    1. AVP*

      For me it’s alllll about the potential future boss and the team – who will be interviewing you? If it’s your future manager, I think you can ask about management style and see how your rapport is. If it’s not, when will you meet that person? And will you be able to walk through the floor and maybe meet some potential co-workers?

      1. Long time lurker, first time commenter*

        I will be interviewing with the people I’d report to. It sounds like a new position, and from the 45 minute phone conversation, they want a lot out of this person. I think I just need to sit down this weekend and think about what I want to get away from and how to ask about those things in a tactful manner.

        Thanks!

    2. EA*

      So I found a pretty good fit after toxic nonsense job. I looked at the issues I had with a former workplace and asked direct questions about them..

      “What communication style do you have/expect from an employee” (last boss was passive aggressive, I prefer direct)
      “What is considered success in this role and how is it determined” (basically to see if they actually manage/give feedback)
      “Are there opportunities for me to take on more work after I get settled” (Admin jobs are weird, some offer growth and some don’t)
      They also mentioned work-life balance things, so that made me feel better. I felt uncomfortable asking about hours in an interview.

      1. Long time lurker, first time commenter*

        Yeah, the hours thing is one that concerns me. I like tackling it from the work-life balance aspect. These are great, thank you.

    3. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Thanks for asking this question. I have an interview next week (first in about 8 years!) and am not totally invested in the position. It’s not that I want that job, it’s that I want to not have my current one (lame managers, bickering & dysfunctional coworkers).

      1. Long time lurker, first time commenter*

        Yep, exactly. I’m ready to move on. I just don’t want to move on and find myself in the same spot, or worse.

    4. Undine*

      Here are some of the things I would want to know about a start-up (coming from a Silicon Valley perspective. Some of them you can get by direct questions, others by looking around:
      Work-life balance — how much are people working there? Are there a lot of nights/weekends? Any possibility to work at home? How much vacation do people take? How stressed do people seem? What is the CEO like — a prima-donna CEO can be very difficult. How accessible are you expected to be out of hours?
      Funding — Some of this you can (and should) Google. What’s the rough difference between revenue and cost (likely negative)? Do they have an actual product they are shipping? Do they have a sense of when they need another round of funding? Your concern here is whether the job will be around in the next crash.
      Maturity — Are most/all of the people there in their twenties, or are there some people who have gray hair? How much experience do people have in their roles? Do they all have titles like “Queen of Teapot Awesomeness” or “CEO of Paperclips”? Is there a lot of drinking/partying? Do they think they are the Best Thing Ever!!! (Your wants might be different from mine in this situation.)
      Process — How much structure do they actually have around getting things done/being accountable/looking at process and mistakes so as not make them again? How do they communicate (email/Slack, etc.) What is the review/performance/feedback process like?
      Your role — How well-defined is your job, really? Will you have to make it up as you go along? What will success look like in this role — really important here, because you want to see that they have a well-defined role and realistic expectations — even if it’s a lot, there’s a big difference between super vague and well-defined with high expectations.

    5. Come On Eileen*

      Spend some time thinking about what contributes most to your personal job satisfaction. Be brutally honest – is it the money? Doing interesting work? Having a supportive boss and team members? Having a flexible schedule? Having a short commute? Opportunities for growth? When you know what your top 2 or 3 things are that really make or break it for you in terms of job satisfaction, you can come up with a list of questions that speak to those areas. For example, if a flexible schedule is important to you, ask what sort of flexibility the corporate culture supports, and if they offer work from home options for a portion of the week or if they require facetime/butt-in-seat time. If having a supportive boss is most important, see what your natural rapport is like during the interview, and ask him or her about their management style and the type of team culture they try to generate. In other words, spend some thoughtful time beforehand really identifying what’s important to you, and then consider the interview an opportunity to find out if they are the right fit for you.

  15. EA*

    So I have been at my job for almost a year, no interest in leaving for another 1-2ish years. I did a good job screening for good situation boss wise/work life balance wise (this has been an issue in the past). What I never thought of, is how do I screen for a company that actually fires people? The thing that most frustrates me, is that at this company, you get promoted if you are good, and can just languish in your job forever if you are mediocre/bad. People are very rarely fired. It is a large/well known/respected place to work in a major city. This bothers me because I have coworkers who duck out early on a regular basis and ask me to cover, and whenever I need something from another dep’t, I have to call multiple people in order to find the one who will actually help (as opposed to the 2 others who are too lazy).

    Is is appropriate to ask future managers how they handle performance concerns? I asked the typical questions of who is successful here/how is it measured, but that didn’t seem to cover it…

    1. LCL*

      Stay away from government work…
      Substandard performers being kept are more common with larger companies. Larger companies tend to have more bureaucracy, whether they are government or private employers.

      Be careful what you wish for. In my experience, companies that move quickly to fire people are the same companies that will ask you to work 90 hour weeks for a non emergency deadline, and will fire you because the manager doesn’t like you.

      1. I'm a Little Teapot*

        Definitely seconding the “be careful what you wish for” part. In my experience, places that are quick to fire are chaotic, unprofessional, and run by jerks, and you’ll live in fear of making one mistake and being gone.

        (My experience with government work has been quite different; most of the people I worked with there were quite competent.)

    2. LQ*

      I think avoid any employer that talks about how they are all a big family or mentions family in relation to how the workplace operates.

      1. Ornery PR*

        Interesting. I think this depends on what you’re looking for. I am not a fan of treating coworkers like family, but I do work for a family-run business that non-related coworkers describe as family, and I get along great here while avoiding much overlap into my personal life. That’s not to say there’s not dysfunction, but this has been a great opportunity for my career – one that I would have missed out on if I had run at the mention of “we’re just a great big family.”

  16. cjb1*

    Happy to say that I’m helping work through the HR / hiring process to bring on a new team member to replace me when I leave and that they listened to my feedback on the “previous salary” question. Instead of asking what they currently make, they will ask for a range they are looking for instead! (There’s no way I can get them to be completely upfront in what the range is that we would offer, but at least it’s a small improvement.)

  17. AVP*

    My amazing boss is leaving and they have offered me his position and I am *freaking out* Mostly excitement but also, he is so good at this job and has done it for so long and I just have no idea how I would ever fill that spot. Will ever fill that spot. He’ll also be around as a possible future contributor to our projects so if I screw up royally, he’ll probably be there watching and I will die inside a bit. Any advice?

    Luckily we’ll have a few months of transition, so it’s not all at once.

    1. the_scientist*

      You can do it! Sometimes you just have to take a calculated risk and jump when an opportunity presents itself, and it sounds like your boss and your company have your back and will support and mentor you. Congratulations!

    3. Cube Ninja*

      Impostor syndrome is a very real thing, and I’d wager that nearly everyone suffers from it in their first management role. I know the biggest adjustment for me in going from an individual contributor role into a supervisory one was how *weird* the first few months were not having a specific daily workload. You’ll also spend some time feeling like you didn’t really do any work, and probably have some “fun” the first few times you need to deal with performance conversations or things like managing attendance.

      My best advice? Be as transparent as you can be with your direct reports, be honest and remember being in their shoes. Moving into management as an known quantity is hard because people who were your peers are now suddenly your employees, and from their perspective, you’re suddenly their boss. If you have good relationships with your teammates, it’ll probably be fine, but I’d still be prepared for people to test boundaries.

      Use your resources, whether that’s your new management peers, your old boss (since you’ll still have access to him) and never stop learning. The fact that you’re asking questions and questioning if you’re ready for it is a *good thing*. Stay grounded, but recognize that in most offices, getting offered a management role unprompted means they have a lot of confidence in your abilities – you should too. :)

    4. harryv*

      Look at what worked during your boss’s tenure and see what you can improve upon. Looks like he did you a great favor! Great situation! Keep him in close contact in case you want to ask him for some advise :)

    5. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Well, the good news is that you had a great boss that you learned from. That’s probably the biggest hurdle for managers – they’ve never seen good management so they don’t know what it looks like. You are way ahead of the game here. Good luck! You can do it!

    6. Crylo Ren*

      Congratulations!! Everyone has to start somewhere, and as others have said, you already know what Good Management looks like thanks to your boss’s example. You can do it!

    7. TootsNYC*

      If your managers are smart, they are actually looking for you to be a little different from your old manager. New blood! Well, new-ish. And fresh ideas.

  18. ElaineCorbenic*

    I interviewed with a company a couple of weeks ago and then received an unofficial job offer depending on a clean background check, good references, and a credit check. The hiring manager said she would get back with me this week with an official offer and a start date, however, I haven’t heard from her. I know that could have something to do with Memorial Day or any number of scenarios. In our last phone conversation, she asked me to email her with any questions. Should I email and ask about where they are in the process? If I do, should I send something today or wait until next week? What do you say in an email like that? I’m a recent graduate and everyone I’ve asked has had a different opinion. Everything from show up at the office to calling to waiting for her to contact me again.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would touch base via email either this afternoon or on Monday. Just send a quick note that says you wanted to check-in on the background check process and see if there was any additional information they needed from you. This should prompt the hiring manager to give you an update on the status of their timeline.

    2. BRR*

      I’d wait until next week and I would personally do Tuesday (in case someone is on vacation or they just need another working day). Things come up.

      And definitely do not show up at the office. Use email.

  19. fi_O*

    Hi! Long time reader, first time poster.

    I’m currently in final round interviews with two orgs that I love! Both orgs will be great for my growth and career.

    I just had my final round interview with company A and they will probably be ready to make an offer next week to someone (hopefully me!).

    Company B wants to fly me out the third week of June for a final interview (I’ve had 3 phone interviews and currently doing an exercise for them – the in-person interview will be to present the exercise and this will be the final one). They are paying for travel and asking for information to book travel for me.

    So if I do get an offer from company A next week, I would love to see if Company B could accelerate their timeline. If not, I think I would be fine with accepting the offer from Company A.
    My question is about letting company B booking travel with the possibility I might cancel on them? Should I tell the recruiter about my situation with company A and ask if they can hold of booking travel until next week? If I don’t tell them and then have to cancel because I’m accepting another offer, will it reflect badly on me?

    Thank you so much!

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I don’t think it would reflect badly on you if you have to cancel – I mean, they obviously know you are job hunting (since you’re interviewing with them) and they are waiting another three weeks to have in for an actual interview.

      But I’d also be really worried about it, because that’s how I am, so I would consider saying something along the lines of “I am really excited for our interview for later this month, but I want to be completely honest with you. I am also in contact with another company that is close to the end of their interview process. How would you like to proceed?”

      And of course, you should weigh your desire to work at both of these companies…. if Company B is your “first choice,” maybe you’d handle it differently (and not risk that job – as small of a risk as it is since reasonable people know you are job hunting!).”

      Good luck!

    2. Prismatic Professional*

      This might be a case of “until you have a job offer, you don’t.” (Just like when people ask about business travel when they *might* be leaving.) Act as if you don’t have an offer (because you don’t) and then update Company B if you are offered the job.

      It feels weird, but that seems to be AAM wisdom. :-)

    3. Anon Moose*

      Don’t tell them. You are not guaranteed to get an offer from either, the timeline could be unpredictable because the boss of one went on vacation or the office flooded or something just had to get rescheduled. Companies should assume you’re applying for other stuff and getting other offers. But you shouldn’t plan based on contingencies that haven’t yet happened- there’s too many factors you have no control over. Cross that bridge when you have an offer or offers in hand.

  20. Rat Racer*

    I have a confession and a question: I am a pathologically bad note-taker. So bad that it almost feels like a learning disability.

    Fortunately, am almost never asked to take minutes for meetings but even notes that I take for myself (decisions, follow-up items) are inevitably missing crucial pieces of information. I’ll write down the next step but not the due date; I’ll write down a topic heading, and leave out the agreed upon decision; I’ll write down who needs to attend a follow up meeting but forget to capture whether I am supposed to schedule it or if it’s been delegated elsewhere.

    It seems to me like there ought to be strategies out there for people whose brains aren’t wired to write and talk at the same time, and that if I read a book and practice some key habits, I could get better at this. Does anyone have any recommendations? Is this a thing that anyone else has experienced and overcome?

    1. AVP*

      Can you maybe write some notes *before* the meeting in a blank notebook?

      List the things you might usually miss with a colon after it, so it’s like information you’ll be reminded to fill in rather than having to make the decision on whether to write it or not in the moment.

      1. AFT123*

        This is a great idea. When you go to prep for your meeting, make a page with blank spaces and the pertinent information you know you need to get out of the meeting. If you’re having trouble visualizing this, do a Google for “meeting note templates” or check out the templates included in OneNote.

        1. AFT123*

          Or even just start with who, what, where, when, why, and how and break those down to see what you think is important.

            1. star23*

              Not a bad idea for class but I wouldn’t record a work meeting. Too often you have people saying things that they wouldn’t want heard outside the room.

    2. cjb1*

      Are your notes typically a standard set of information? Can you draft a sheet of paper that shows what you should be getting out of this meeting (either a template or something before you even go in there) and practice making sure all the necessary fields are filled out? You could have different ones for different meetings and then keep them in a note-taking binder of some sort.

      And then review notes near the end of the meeting (either do a meeting recap if you are leading and fill in any blanks or check it before you leave and if you are missing a few things, ask about them). Ask in a summarizing way, “So just to be clear Ed is doing task X. When will you have that done? … And I am doing Y and which other task was necessary to complete by Friday?”

      I think note-taking would be hard if you have a hard time writing/talking at the same time. Are you taking all notes with pen and paper? Maybe typing on a computer (if possible) would be easier for your brain. Some people have a harder time writing and talking compared to typing and talking.

      1. cjb1*

        My company has several template forms/outlines/etc for various types of meetings. I can try to throw out a few shortened examples if you are interested.

      2. Rat Racer*

        No – these are usually informal meetings, generally without an agenda. Teams and colleagues are spread across the country so almost all meetings are by conference call and Webex. I work from home and don’t have a printer hooked up to my work computer so all my notes are pen/paper. I’ve tried taking notes on one-note, and have found it difficult to type notes while talking, and often I’m sharing my screen or looking at someone else’s shared screen.

        But regardless, I take the same terrible notes while typing that I do with a pen. I think it’s that my brain jumps around too much when I’m talking/strategizing/listening such that I forget to write down the important things. Honestly, the more I write about this and read responses, the more I think that my poor note-taking is a symptom of a larger problem, which is the frenetic and scattered pace my mind races at during these conversations.

    3. Ell like L*

      Maybe you could get a small recording device? That way you have access to the whole meeting later and you won’t forget anything. You can refer back to it to fill in your notes? There are pretty non-intrusive recording devices out there for folks.

      1. Rat Racer*

        I like this idea a lot! I used to do this in grad school because – again – terrible note-taking

      2. DCR*

        In many states, it is illegal to record a conversation without the person’s consent. Further, I suspect the company would be very opposed to this idea and may fire someone over it because of legal/security concerns.

        This is something you need to work on, but recording is no the way to go

    4. LCL*

      This is what I do.
      I use a big legal pad that has a left margin. At the top I write the initials of everybody attending. Since others may see your notes be professional, no snark like PHB for the manager, etc.
      I make notes of what people say, and put their initials in the margin. If I can remember who said something, it is easier for me to remember items.

    5. SRB*

      I was once a bad note taker (during school, especially). Once you start working, the “take-aways” that you have to write down are so different too, that it takes awhile to adjust. After several years of doing detailed meetings minutes, like, every day, I think I’ve gotten it down.

      Firstly, don’t try to talk and write at the same time. It’s ok to say “Hang on, let me write that down” and have there be silence for a moment. No one will judge. I always find it easier to announce what I’m doing, too, so that people on the phone aren’t jarred by the sudden quiet.

      Nowadays, that I’m not doing official “minutes” for CYA purposes, I only write down two things (typically): action items and decisions.

      Action items are things that need to be done. Action items have 3 characteristics that always get recorded: (1) the activity, (2) the assigned person, and (3) the assigned deadline. Don’t be afraid to speak up if one of those isn’t clear. “We’ll do the Teapots report this week.” is not enough. “Sansa Stark will finish the Teapots report by 9 am Friday”.

      Decisions also have three things: (1) What was decided, (2) why, (3) the date, and (4 optional) who decided it, if that’s important in your workflow.”The client asked Sansa to focus on the handle QA results in the report and not the spout QA results, since the client will have to make a decision on the former, based on the results.”

      It might be helpful either drawing or making a Word template with a table with those headers at first, until it becomes habit. Keep your ears open for anything that sounds like an action item or decision. “Ok, we’ll do that”, “I’ll get that done”, “We have to get this done”, “The next thing we have to do is…”. Soon you’ll have an action item and decision radar. :)

      I’ve also found that having a standard agenda item at the end of meetings labelled “Review action items” is very helpful. You just state all that you recorded, people add anything you’ve forgotten or just nod in silent agreement.

    6. Vix*

      I don’t know if you’re a podcast fan, but Manager Tools is a great one. They have several specifically about taking notes, but I’d start with the one called “How to Take Notes.”

      (Man, I love when things are named so efficiently!)

      Link to follow.

    7. Rad Radost*

      Besides the recording, my general notetaking tips are:
      – Focus on specific nouns and verbs
      – Skip vowels
      – Use the first chunk of longer words
      – Figure out abbreviations & symbols that work for you

      Examples:

      “The guys in the shop are saying the QWERTY, Inc. deliveries keep coming in with defects and just really bad packaging. Should we–”
      – QWERTY Inc deliv probs?

      “Sir, they’re just picky, I talked to Quality and the issues they’re talking about aren’t a big deal–”
      – poss. not bad (check w/ Qual)

      “It’s too many of these deliveries, though, we’ve had five batches and at that point the flaws start piling up too much for the product to be any good. At least we could research other suppliers.
      – Howev, 5 batches flaws => :(
      – Resrch supplrs

      You can always fill in details later once you’ve got a skeleton of basic events to work from.

  21. Ready for a Change*

    I have 10 more work days to go before I give my 2 weeks notice at my job. This isn’t exactly how I planned my summer, but a few weeks ago my boss blew up at me (the latest in a string, and several years of just awful management on her part), accusing me of being manipulative for telling her I was getting conflicting information from different people about a project…and then in a meeting this week, she said she thinks our communication is getting better. Great, as it gives me a little security as I wait this out, but after that blow up, I drove home from work and said out loud to myself “I need to quit.”

    I’m planning my last day to be July 1 (or 4th, if I can swing it, it would be nice to get paid for a last holiday) so I get health benefits through July, I have a few weeks vacation saved up to get me paid mostly through July, and I’m in conversations about an amazing opportunity that could start in August, plus a few other freelance projects this summer to bring in a little money. I’m meeting with the decision-maker about that opportunity next week to keep her in the loop (some people would say not to do this, but I think this is the best decision based on our conversations so far). I’m terrified and excited but so ready for a major change.

    1. Ready too*

      I’m in a similar boat, Ready, and just want to say hang in there. Sometimes taking a risk is all you need to get to a much better work situation, and looks like you have things well under control. Best of luck!

      1. Ready for a change*

        Honestly, I’m sitting on a park bench eating lunch and this just made start crying. I don’t feel like I have things under control, really, but it helps that someone thinks I do. I need the drastic change in this and other aspects of my life (though that’s something for the Sunday thread).

        Best of luck to you too. We can do this.

    2. Me too.*

      Wow. I am in a very similar situation. We’ve had a lot of turnover, and my new boss acused me of misrepresenting myself, mostly because I think he doesn’t know what I do. I considered quitting today, but I want to wrap up some things. I have nothing lined up, just some plans to do some freelance work.

      1. Ready for a change*

        As I’ve been telling myself for the past two weeks, wanting to wrap things up isn’t a bad thing, but don’t talk yourself out of it just for the sake of wrapping things up, or some sense of loyalty or obligation.

        We deserve better than people that treat us like crap.

  22. EthicalQuandry*

    My company has asked me to do an ethics questionnaire. Refusing to do this questionnaire will result in the HR manager meeting with me.

    I cannot, in good conscience, do this survey. It is not anonymous. There have been a lot of ethical violations that I am aware of, and while many of them were addressed – and the offenders fired – there are still some other, vague issues.

    My options are to either do the survey and lie, or do the survey, be honest, and deal with blowback. I have some major trust issues because of the previous two managers who were extremely unethical, and I am terrified to do this survey.

    Maybe I’m overthinking it, but any advice would be greatly welcomed.

    1. kbeers0su*

      Blech. I would do the survey and lie. You would think that those above you would understand that failing to allow respondents to be anonymous will lead to many people not being honest on such a survey. Unless they really don’t care about whether they are being ethical or not, and just want to do the survey to say they did the survey. And by forcing you to sign your name to it, they’re pretty much ensuring that everyone will lie and give positive results…

      1. cjb1*

        I agree with this as well. If you are not in a position to be able to leave your job, I’d be concerned about signing my name on this.

    2. Ad Astra*

      It sounds like your best choice here is to lie. That sucks, but it’s the position this company has put you in. If they really wanted to use that survey to uncover potential ethical issues, they would have made the survey anonymous.

      But I’m interested to see if other commenters have some better advice.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Surely if HR is meeting with you for not doing the survey that would then be the time to explain the issues and pushback/asking for…what’s the term…”protection” (maybe) if there is retaliation as a result of the survey/your concern about retaliation if you are honest on the survey.

      If HR is part of the problem, though….well…then clearly there are bigger problems at company than just the ethics survey in general…

    4. R Adkins*

      Some auditors require random employees to do ethics surveys to make sure nothing is going on they should know about. Could you ask what the purpose of the survey is first? I would personally not want to lie and then have it come to light later and be held responsible for knowing and not reporting. But I work in healthcare where you are legally required to report ethics issues.

      1. Badlands*

        +1

        Could you be non-responsive to the survey/questionnaire in a way that says “I have a problem with the way this survey is being conducted.” Something like “I decline to answer this question because if I did have ethics concerns, my anonymity would not be preserved and I am worried about the threat of retaliation.” Basically – the form of the survey is defeating the purpose of the survey, which is honest responses.

        Unless they don’t want honest responses.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      What do you know about HR? Were they aware of/involved in the ethical violations? Do you have reason to believe they’ll turn on you if you refuse to fill out the questionnaire and meet with the manager instead?

      1. Laura*

        These are the next questions OP should ask. If HR is “dangerous,” it would be best to lie on the survey… and start looking for a new job.

      2. EthicalQuandry*

        I actually really like and trust the HR department here.

        My big issue here is that the two managers who have since been fired were brilliant at retaliating in ways that they could easily hide. I strongly suspect that I was set up to fail in retaliation for me pointing out some illegal stuff they were trying with me in concern to work hours.

        Things have gotten *much* better, but there are still remnants of trust issues lingering there. I really like the company and have been much happier since things have changed, but like I said – trust issues.

        1. Cordelia Naismith*

          Since the offending managers are now gone and you like HR…I think I would call HR and set up a meeting to talk. Just lay all your cards on the table and tell them what you know was going on and explain how you feel you were set up to fail by the ex-managers. If the HR people are good, they will want to know all of this and won’t retaliate.

        2. designbot*

          I would go to HR pre-emptively then and express your concerns about the survey methodology to them. They may get it changed/anonomized, or they may ask you to talk to them about what you think you could face retaliation about, giving you the opportunity to keep that information verbal and have a conversation that is more nuanced than a survey response.

    6. BRR*

      Do you know what HR’s goal is with the questionnaire? If it’s to flush out current issues you can ask about protection from retaliation. I hate to say this but you might just have to lie.

    7. Elle the new Fed*

      If the previous managers are also I longer at the company, can you point out their unethical behavior and omit anyone currently working there? That might be a balance to not get blowback from current staff but still be honest on some part.

    8. Nancypie*

      As a theoretical, this is a very interesting question. If there are things going on that are unethical, isn’t it your responsibility to disclose that? Presumably that’s why they’re doing the survey. And by not disclosing it, what does that say about your own personal ethics? I say this all theoretically, not as any judgement on you.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      If the issues are vague then perhaps you have no foundation for reporting them on the questionnaire.

      Sometimes it is necessary for survival on the job NOT to report things you cannot prove.

      OTH, it could be that your answer is right here. “I am having difficulty filling out this form because of blow back I have experienced in the past.” Write that on the top and hand it in.

      And in a different path, maybe a meeting with HR in lieu of filling out the form is the very route for you to go. Sometimes the thing we are avoiding the most is THE answer. I have seen things play out this way. No, I can’t explain that except to say that it works out sometimes.

  23. Tawanda1983*

    I may shortly find myself in a dilemma and would love feedback on what to do if said dilemma does play out. I took a job 3 months ago after relocating to follow my partner for their new job. The odd thing is that partner and I work for the same organization, but in different roles, but have the same boss (super weird). Partner loves his job, but me not so much.

    (I had really intended to like it- I am really passionate about the work we’re supposed to be doing- but I found out after I started that this program has been run into the ground and I’m supposed to fix it. While being paid not nearly enough money. And had I know the problems I was taking on I definitely would have negotiated a higher salary.)

    About six weeks ago (eight weeks into this job) I applied to a position that posted nearby that is in my prior field, and which I am very excited for, and which pays quite a bit more (even at the bottom of the range). I did two interviews and am a finalist, and will find out next week if I got the job. They want a pretty quick turnaround, so I’ll be giving just two weeks notice.

    So the dilemma is…if I get the job, how do I announce/explain knowing that my partner will likely take some heat for this? I like to think that partner’s employment had nothing to do with me getting this job, but I’m not sure. And since we share a supervisor, I’m sure it’ll come up at some point in those conversations. Thoughts?

    1. Co-Spouser*

      OK, I’ve done this! Do you get the sense that your partner will face actual repercussions? When I left my previous job with my partner, I was very worried about awkwardness, but everyone was super respectful and understanding (even if I did get a little bit of ribbing for it).

      It helped was that my partner didn’t offer any information on my behalf and said that it was my decision. People understood right away that it wasn’t worth even talking to him about it.

      1. OP*

        Well, glad to know we’re not the only couple who has ever done something like this! I don’t think that he’ll face actual repercussions as he seems much beloved within his group (invited to speak at an upcoming annual conference despite being fairly new, etc.). It’s more that I know it’ll be awkward and that he’s a super introvert and will hate being asked/will worry a lot about what people think.

        I’m lucky because I don’t care nearly as much about what people think, which is why I’m ok jumping ship given the circumstances…!

        1. The Butcher of Luverne*

          “Partner had a great opportunity and jumped at the chance to take it” is all your guy needs to say.

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            Yup. Mine also stuck with “You’d have to ask Nonny about that, it was her decision.”

      2. Lindsay J*

        We didn’t share the same boss, but my SO and I worked at the same company at my last job.

        I let everyone know I was leaving the same way I would have if he didn’t work there.

        One of my last days we have a potluck lunch for a holiday party. At the party my boss did give my SO a little ribbing in the vein of “how dare you let her leave here” but it was all in good fun, and his response was something to the extent of, “I don’t ‘let’ her do anything. She’s an adult and does whatever she thinks is best for her,” and that was that.

    2. esra*

      If it were me, I’d announce it the same as I would if my partner didn’t work there at all. I don’t think it would be really appropriate for the supervisor to even go into it with your partner. I work in an office with a few married couples, and we basically just pretend they aren’t married when it comes to work issues. Not ideal, I know. I’m not sure there is an ideal solution when it comes to those kinds of relationships in the workplace.

      For what it’s worth, it sounds like you are making the 100% right move.

    3. Felicity*

      This is no help but make sure you give your notice. My brother and I (this is never a good idea) had the same boss. He interviewed at a new company and ghosted where we worked immediately. He never told them he quit, he just disappeared to start the new job immediately. He’s a jerk though. He expected me to deal with it all. Thanks bro.

      1. OP*

        Awkward. No, I will definitely give notice. Wouldn’t want to put partner in that position…

    4. Bigglesworth*

      Both my spouse and I have worked for the same company…twice. We met at one company (a summer camp), but didn’t start dating until after we both resigned.

      After we married, he had a hard time finding a job. I was talking to my manager at the retail store I worked at when she said (after meeting him casually when he came to bring me my lunch one day) that she liked him and he should apply to work to be part of the team. She placed us in separate stores for about 6 months before allowing me to rotate between locations, but she never never never never put us on the schedule to work the same shift at the same location (which was more than ok with both of us since I had seniority and did not want to ever pull the “manager” card on him.) Everyone knew we were married, but we were both professional in our work and no one ever expected us to be the other’s watchdog or whatever.

      That particular manager still holds the title of my favorite manager. She made what could have been an awful situation (working retail with a spouse) into not only a workable situation, but one in which we both excelled. She knew that we were on hard times (I was working 3-4 jobs and he was working about the same) and wanted to help us out. She never judged my work on his or his work on mine. I eventually left the company for a management role elsewhere, but he stayed on and eventually became a manager himself.

      All that to say, it can work out. Your situation sounds different than ours (not retail and not on the same team), but I think so long as you and your partner handle this responsibly and professionally, you really should be ok. :)

  24. Interview help needed*

    Hi. Long-time reader, I’ve asked a few questions, but I’m life-paranoid in general so I’m always anon. I left my job a month ago without another lined up (OMG I know) because of… a lot of reasons, mostly because my boss was being highly business-inappropriate with their clients, their own peers, and everyone in general, and it was severely impacting my ability to a) get work done, b) win new work, and c) be functional without being miserable. I do not for one second regret leaving, even though I’m fully aware it could affect my ability to get a new job. But clearly I’m not going to tell anyone that in an interview when they ask why I left my old job as I don’t want to endanger old boss’ career or look like a trash-talker.

    What are my options? I have an interview next week for the first time since I left. I could say “I hadn’t been on a consistent project in six months” which is true. I could mention that many people were being laid off, which is true. Idk. Help!

    2. Ready for a change*

      I don’t know that I can help you with your question, but just commenting in solidarity on leaving without something lined up, as I’m about to make this move myself.

    3. kbeers0su*

      I think you could lump all this together and say that the business was going through a bumpy time and that you read the writing on the wall and decided to get out early. If people were being laid off around you, you could have stuck it out, but I think that would also leave a lot of people with frayed nerves not knowing what tomorrow might bring. You could also say that you wanted to take some time off for whatever personal reasons (travel, family, learning new skills) while you searched for your next opportunity.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I think you could also add that the organization’s lay-offs and the inconsistent project schedule, you are looking for an organization that is growing (true and because it’s factual, it doesn’t trash the boss or the company) and that you left to pursue opportunities at a faster-paced/busier organization.

        I would suggest practicing this in front of a mirror, with a friend/family member, etc. until you’re able to convey it with both your words and your demeanor. Good luck on the interview!

  25. esra*

    Inspired by the commenter who admitted to licking a salt lamp while temping, and the other commenter who said we should start a thread about our silliest/weirdest work behaviours.

    Mine: After a contentious layoff (almost everyone but the execs at a nonprofit), I totally took the candy I’d brought in for the office my first day back from vacation so all of us recently laid off could eat it together in a park.

    No chocolate for you, shoddy president!

    1. Crylo Ren*

      At my previous employer, my department passed around a holiday penguin doll. At first people would just take photos of the penguin at their cubes, but then we started creating little stories around how the penguin ended up in different locations. It escalated to the point that a couple of coworkers filmed the penguin arriving in “Brazil” for the World Cup (complete with a tiny motorcade and confetti made from old reports).

    2. LisaLee*

      Oooh, fun.

      I don’t have many really weird ones, but at my very first job in high school, I broke something on the job and was too awkward to tell my boss so I hid it under an unused desk. I can’t remember what it was now, so I HOPE it wasn’t something important.

      Luckily, I am not that shy anymore.

    3. Cath in Canada*

      When our central grants office decided to retire a particular form that we all hated filling in (it was an awful lot of work for no apparent reason), I organised a party in a nearby park to celebrate. It was called the pink form because you had to print it on pink paper, so we had pink lemonade and pink cupcakes, and we held a ceremonial burning of a pink form. The grants office heard about it a few weeks later and thought it was hilarious – they hated the form too!

    4. Sadsack*

      I did something similar. I had volunteered to contribute paper and plastic products for our department holiday party while others contributed food, etc. Brought everything in the day before the party. That same day, we were all laid off and our jobs outsourced. Took everything back home with me and returned it all for a refund! So there were no plates or forks or anything at the party. From what I was told, the party was pretty much a big downer anyway. I wasn’t there because my elimination was immediate while others stayed on for knowledge transfer.

    5. CherryScary*

      We have a yearly Spring Cleaning. Any random items no longer wanted are put into a pile and raffled off at the end of the day. Previous “prizes” included a ceramic animal head, signed framed headshots of coworkers, and odd clocks.

      1. Liza*

        Was the ceramic animal head a horse that originally came from a Yankee gift swap, or are there multiple ceramic animal heads in offices around the world?

    6. Lily Evans*

      The retail store I worked at in high school had been around for at least 50 years and one of the relics of the pre-technological security era was hidden windows in upstairs stockrooms with binoculars where security staff used to watch for shoplifters. Naturally, all the teens who worked there started spending far too much time hiding up there and spying on everyone in the store. We never got caught because we could always see when the managers were coming.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I was let go from a nonprofit that never had enough money as well as office supply procurement procedures that were designed to discourage people from using office supplies. Most people just made so with what was there, but being picky I ended up buying and paying for quite a few things myself. Things like pushpins, paper clips, dish washing liquid for the break room, a heavy-duty stapler and red Sharpie felt-tip pens in just the right “Extra Fine Point” size. I wrote my name on the stapler, although that was no guarantee that another department would not have taken it.

      When I was let go I gave the candy and gum to my admin, then packed up a lot (not all) of the supplies that I had brought in, including the Sharpies and the heavy-duty stapler. I know the department misses that heavy-duty stapler.

  26. AFT123*

    I’m re-reading and still crying laughing at all of the mortifying comments from yesterday’s post about hugging the CEO. Thank you all so much for sharing!!

    1. MaggiePi*

      Agreed! I woke my husband up about 5 times because I was laughing so hard. (He didn’t find it as funny for some reason… )

  27. Cath in Canada*

    I’m thinking of moving my to-do list from paper to a Kanban board. I’d like to use a web app that will let me have separate lists for separate projects, and ideally track stats so I can compare actual productivity between projects rather than just time spent working on each one. Any recommendations? Thanks, and happy Friday!

    1. Manders*

      You might have to come up with your own system for stat tracking, but Trello is great for keeping to do lists together in one place but separated by project.

  28. Grey*

    What do you think of man who carries a briefcase he might not actually need? Does it look silly if you’re not an attorney or CEO? Are there any good alternatives? Right now, I carry whatever documents I have, my flash drive and a 20 oz. Mountain Dew to and from work in one of those reusable shopping bags. Sometimes if feels like I’m carrying a purse. At the same time, I don’t want to carry a briefcase if it’s going to make me look like I overestimate my importance.

    I’m the type of guy who had to be outright told that it was time to lose the mullet, earring and acid washed jeans in the 90s, so I worry about these things now.

    1. esra*

      What about a men’s work bag or messenger bag? I wouldn’t blink at someone showing up to the office with one of those, but a briefcase feels very formal.

    2. Academic transition?*

      This is the case for a messenger bag. Maybe one of the Timbuk2 ones. Or a backpack?

    3. Ad Astra*

      A lot of the men at my (rather casual) office carry backpacks. I think it’s a little goofy-looking, but it seems to work.

      1. Sadsack*

        Backpacks for carrying laptops, etc., are so much easier to deal with than the crossbody bags. Less stress on your back and shoulders. Most men and women where I work use backpacks. It looks completely normal to me now.

    4. AFT123*

      I vote messenger bag or computer bag over briefcase. Nobody would ever blink at someone carrying a computer bag.

    5. Christy*

      What do you wear to work? I can’t imagine you’d look sillier with a briefcase than with a shopping bag.

    7. Lady Kelvin*

      My husband has a nice looking backpack/day bag from REI. Some days all that is in it is his lunch, but sometimes he brings his work laptop home/papers, etc in it. I live in DC and while I thought it would be weird for a grown man in a suit wearing a backpack to work everyday, its surprisingly common. So maybe think about something like that instead of a briefcase?

    8. Lauren*

      Just get a small backpack. Most CEOs use them as laptop bags now. I’m picturing you with a bright green reusable shopping bag (extremely obv that its meant for groceries) with the grocery store name on it. If that is the case where its obviously a reusable grocery bag vs. a conventional tote bag, then you should upgrade to something else.

      For the record, I have a Walking Dead tote for my laptop and I wear it proudly to all client meetings.

      1. Grey*

        I’m picturing you with a bright green reusable shopping bag (extremely obv that its meant for groceries) with the grocery store name on it.

        Funny, because that’s exactly what it is.

    9. TCO*

      What about a men’s shoulder bag, like the kind designed to carry laptops? In most industries that would look far more modern than a briefcase. I see men carrying them all the time in my city.

      1. TCO*

        Examples:
        http://www.ebags.com/product/kenneth-cole-reaction-business-and-luggage/columbian-leather-flapover-computer-case/100888?productid=1266729
        http://www.ebags.com/product/kenneth-cole-reaction-business-and-luggage/columbian-leather-flapover-computer-case/100888?productid=1266729
        http://www.ebags.com/product/kenneth-cole-reaction-business-and-luggage/columbian-leather-flapover-computer-case/100888?productid=1266729
        http://www.ebags.com/product/patagonia/headway-brief/311886?productid=10417375#ratings-and-reviews

    10. Laura*

      It depends on your workplace. Do other employees carry briefcases? If not, you probably look very formal, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I work in a fairly friendly, business-casual environment, where the male higher-ups actually dress more casually and carry messenger bags or backpacks.

      1. Grey*

        I work in a female dominant industry (apartment management) so I can’t really look at what the other men are using. The women seem to use things like the messenger bag but I wasn’t sure if that would be ok for a man.

    11. Ama*

      Yesterday on the subway I saw a man in business wear carrying a really awesome leather satchel — it looked professional but was a little less formal looking than a briefcase.

    12. Grey*

      I’m not at all fashion conscious so I had to Google messenger bag. The ones like TCO linked to or a small backpack both sound like good suggestions.

    14. h.cowl*

      I’m a woman and I go with a backpack. I walk to work and it’s way easier on the shoulders.

    15. MaggiePi*

      I agree with the messenger bag idea, or a backpack. It sounds a bit odd, but pretty much everyone at my SO’s office carries a backpack. If you like briefcases, maybe something less formal looking than a hard sided one, like this style:
      https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bagswish.com%2F3639%2Fleather-travel-bag-leather-soft-briefcase.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bagswish.com%2F403-leather-travel-bag-leather-soft-briefcase.html&docid=RNocgjdMBA5qGM&tbnid=7kdIIGraPYnwNM%3A&w=519&h=468&bih=884&biw=1680&ved=0ahUKEwikluS7xIzNAhVDLlIKHcvFCkcQMwhPKBAwEA&iact=mrc&uact=8
      or
      https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimg1.etsystatic.com%2F000%2F0%2F5951532%2Fil_570xN.334275469.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.etsy.com%2Flisting%2F220651945%2Freserved-leather-briefcase-soft-sided&docid=wNDYSFEbpZ7tHM&tbnid=tnsyIGBgzG4pVM%3A&w=570&h=760&bih=884&biw=1680&ved=0ahUKEwikluS7xIzNAhVDLlIKHcvFCkcQMwhgKBkwGQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
      I think those are cool, but probably pricey.

    16. Grey*

      Thank you for the ideas. I have an unused briefcase that’s been sitting my closet for the past 20 years. I actually gave some thought into dusting it off and using it. I’m really glad I asked first.

    17. periwinkle*

      I like briefcases but I really like having my hands free! My vote is for a backpack that’s large enough to carry your work laptop, if you have one; otherwise, something large enough to carry your documents safely.

      Not only are backpacks the norm at my Fortune 50 employer, but you’re issued a backpack when you start. Our official backpack is heavy as heck so I use my own – right now it’s a Timbuk2 that’s similar to the current Timbuk2 Sunset model. Sometimes it’s full of laptop and accessories, sometimes it holds just an apple and carton of yogurt.

      But if you do decide on a briefcase, pick one you like and don’t worry about looking pretentious.

    18. Student*

      You can also do a backpack, as long as it looks plain and adult. A college-ish one or a small hiking backpack. Lots of college-type backpacks can be had for cheap when it’s off-season, like a week or three after the local college and high schools start. 5.11 has very rugged bags that I personally like, if you’re looking for something long-term and expensive.

      If you’re in a very formal environment, better to go with a briefcase. If you are currently doing okay with a grocery bag, you probably aren’t in a very formal environment though.

      1. AnotherFed*

        5.11 stuff can often be picked up for deep discounts online at LA Police gear. They make some seriously tough gear, and it’s usually very well thought out.

    19. Chaordic One*

      I once had a co-worker, a black man, who always made a point of dressing up and of carrying a brief case, even though most of the time he didn’t have anything in his brief case. When most of the men in the office wore sports jackets, he wore a suit. On casual Fridays he wore a sports jacket with chinos, but no tie when everyone else wore jeans.

      And yes, it was sort of like his purse with his lunch, a bottle of water, maps, paperback novels and who knows what all else in it. I once teased him about the brief case and told him that for him it seemed like Linus’ security blanket. He didn’t disagree, but then he told me that when he had his brief case he was a gentleman and a business professional, and that when he didn’t, he was just a [insert n-word] here. At the time I was a bit taken back as his brutal honesty.

      He seemed to know that, even in the present time, some people are judged more harshly than others; and he seemed to feel that he had to present himself differently than most of his co-workers.

    20. Mander*

      FWIW I sometimes work in the hotshot financial district in London, and I see fancy pants CEOs and obviously very rich people carrying their work stuff in normal backpacks. As long as it’s not falling apart it should be fine.

  29. Sunflower*

    I work for a large law firm in the marketing dept. We recently had a presentation from HR on the reviews/compensation structure. This presentation was to non-managers(ALL NON-EXEMPT) who have been in the workforce anywhere from 1-6 years. Things they mentioned

    – There is a lot of misinformation out there about market ranges and salary sites like Glassdoor are not reliable
    – HR conducts a lot of market research and use this with a combination of many other things to determine salaries/raises
    – HR provides our managers with these market ranges and we should ask them what those numbers are

    It seemed kind of to me that they were trying to undermine us? Should I trust the market ranges they give us? My field has relatively high turnover across the board but I’m pretty confident they want to stay competitive with other firms. Working in event planning, I(and people in my position at other firms) work much more overtime than other non-exempts in our depts. Does our overtime factor into that market range?

    1. esra*

      Yikes. It sounds like they know they’re paying either below or on the low end of market and want to get in front of it.

    2. Kate*

      I’m in HR (not Compensation; another area). In my experience, Comp is brought in to do a presentation on salary when there’s reason to believe seriously inaccurate info is being passed around. (E.g. an employee leaves for a far-above-market rate elsewhere, and everybody who remains starts to wonder if that’s actually normal pay.) Presentations are usually not done proactively to educate employees, although it’s nice when they are.

      If you believe your HR to be generally competent and honest, I’d trust the market ranges they provide. (Trust, but verify, of course, as best you can.) Comp departments pay thousands for access to market research. It is much more accurate than Glassdoor and similar sites. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty accurate. Like all data, it has its limitations. You could be at the top of the range and still underpaid for your particular set of circumstances. (Or vice versa.)

      The fact that HR did a presentation at all makes me think they’re probably being truthful. Firms with salary issues typically don’t do HR presentations with false data– they just discourage people from discussing salary.

      And to answer your question– No, OT does not factor into the market range.

      1. Sunflower*

        Thanks this is super helpful! FWIW- this presentation was done at the suggestion of my Director. Our Chief was unsure about if it was a good idea but ultimately gave the go-ahead. Our company is pretty open about these things- all of the information in the presentation(like career ladders, suggestions for how to make the most of your review) is available on our intranet. The discouraging part was that each dept is given a budget and then teams are given budgets within that. I’m on a 2 person team so it feels a bit like whatever the budget says is what I’m getting. Thankfully the money conversation flows down from Chief to Manager to Report and then flows back up.

    3. Comp Professional*

      Honestly they are probably telling you the truth. As someone who is responsible for setting pay structures, I can say that glassdoor and salary.com are terribly misleading. A large part of the issue has to do with sample size. For instance, I just looked up the salary range for “Human Resources Manager” at Microsoft and there were 22 reported salaries, which is a tiny sample of all Human Resources Managers that would be employed at Microsoft. The surveys Compensation Professionals use to determine market ranges are much more comprehensive and can be narrowed down by geography, similar companies, company size, company revenue, etc. to get a valid match. Also generally multiple surveys are used to compare and validate that we are truly getting a good picture of the market.

      1. Sunflower*

        I TOTALLY agree with you that glassdoor is super unreliable and misleading. I’m part of a networking group of other legal event professionals and I would LOVE to get some sort of conversation about market ranges going between us.

        1. Comp Professional*

          I just realized I also didn’t mention that it is also relatively normal to direct employees to managers who have more specific information about the range. While I can tell you where you are being paid relative to the market managers can have more nuanced information about why you are being paid below, or why you are making at market which is much more helpful to an employee. It sounds like your Compensation department is pretty transparent and open about what they are doing which gives me confidence they are being truthful! You mentioned budgets above, generally how that works is Comp will determine how much the market will have moved at the appraisal period which we use to determine how much our salary structures will move. That information is then sent to Finance and built into the budgets, so the salary budget even for a team of two should be adjusted to reflect market as well.

    4. Editor*

      In some occupational categories, there is census or Bureau of Labor Statistics information about salaries broken down by county. There are holes in the data where the report might reveal a particular employer’s salary structure. I found the information with some searching plus exploration of the databases on federal sites, but it was a couple of years ago and I don’t remember exactly where I went. Some of the success or failure depends on job title and category.

    5. Rex*

      Didn’t we have an open thread about industries and salaries a while back? Is it time to do that again?

  30. Anansi*

    I have a question about negotiating for federal government jobs. Thanks in advance for any advice!

    I have an unusual (I think) situation where an agency created a job specifically for me. I just learned that they are preparing an offer – without any interview. While this is flattering, I am unsure of how I should handle it if I want to negotiate a higher salary or a higher GS. I am thinking of handling this just like a normal process, and once I receive an offer just responding that I was hoping more for $X, and the higher GS (the position was posted at two GS levels). Is this acceptable? Are there particular pitfalls I should be aware of when negotiating federal government jobs? Any other advice? Thanks!

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      You probably won’t be able to negotiate the GS level, but you can ask for an increase in your step level! At my agency, I had to provide a paystub from my previous job, and they adjusted my step up so that I wouldn’t receive a pay cut. However, I don’t know what they’d say if you wanted an increase from your previous job. Other than that, my experience has been that negotiating is almost non-existent. Probably varies a lot by agency…

      1. Anansi*

        That’s a good idea about the step level, thanks! I am worried that they will try to pay me the same as my current job (although I don’t think they’ve asked for my current salary yet). My salary is ok but not great, which is one reason why I’d like to leave. But this job does have a lot of other perks that I wouldn’t get at the new job.

    2. Late To This One*

      From what I know many agencies are not able to budge from the Grade level that they offer you, but HeyNonnyNonny is dead on about being able to negotiate steps. But unlike HeyNonnyNonny, when I asked for a higher step to match my current salary (and presented paystubs) they came back with an offer that was nominally lower and would cause hardship to my family if I took the job. If I had known that they have to advertise the full range of the Grade but can only go up to a certain step because of budget and not be able to offer the highest step which is above my current pay, I would have never applied.

      Best of luck to you and hopefully you don’t have the same experience that I did.

      1. GovHRO*

        I’m assuming you applied to both grade levels? If that wasn’t an option, then your definitely stuck at the lower level (if only the lower was an option to apply to, that’s it.) If you could check the boxes to say you were interested at both levels, you may or may not have been found qualified at both grade levels. If you were qualified and refered at both levels, they could pick you at either level. However, you could only be qualified at the lower level (higher preference veteran at higher level, your resume didn’t demonstrate something, you didn’t answer the usajobs questions correctly, some other weird thing) or they have budget restrictions and have to hire at the lower level. If they hire you at the lower level, many agencies have prohibitions against higher step levels (above min. Rate) when it’s essentially a developmental-multi grade position, but it doesn’t hurt to try. Nor does it hurt to try to negotiate more vacation based on outside experience-that’s a big one that candidates should try to negotiate. Not all agencies can do this–if they don’t have a policy in place, then they can’t do it. If your prior experience is as a active duty military member-no need to negotiate the higher amount of vacation–you’ll get as much as they’re allowed to give.

      2. Anansi*

        Ugh, that sucks. Especially since it is not easy to apply to those jobs to begin with, so such a waste of time! I did just get the offer letter and it’s for Step 1, slightly less than I’m making now. We’ll see how negotiations go.

  31. White Mage*

    I’m having trouble creating video demos of our products and I’m looking for advice. Video editing is not new to me, as I’m part of a weekly podcast, but I just keep running into wall after wall with what I need to do for work. Probably because I’m working with video screen captures, which I don’t do for the podcast.

    I’m creating video demos for our online software, which is mostly text. The video screen captures I take look great – the problem is working with them in an editing software and then condensing them into a video that can be put on YouTube, and in both situations I lose major quality. The biggest issue I’m running into the is the text loses quality when the video is shrunk down and I can only get it to look anywhere from awful to mediocre at best. I know why it does this, but I can’t figure out how to get around it. I’ve tried exporting to all different formats, doing video capture at different resolutions, and I still get sub-par results. I know it’s possible because I’ve seen demos on other companies’ websites with awesome quality demos of their software. I’m totally lost as to what I’m doing wrong.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for products or different settings I can use? I have both Camtasia and Adobe Premiere for editing, plus some free video screen capture programs. I’m not against buying another software, but I’d like to avoid if possible.

    1. Jules the First*

      I use Jing for video screencapture and edit in Adobe – no problems so far.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Quite a few years ago I remember being able to make slides in Powerpoint/Keynote (which probably included some screen capture) then convert it into a video slide-show with iMovie (something native to Mac) and the quality was pretty decent considering I wasn’t using anything “professional”. I was also able to stick “real” video in between the slides to make it a pretty seamless process that played by itself, or could be advanced manually.

      1. White Mage*

        Ooh, I’ve converted PowerPoint presentations to videos before, but I didn’t know you were able to include videos in that. Might not be what I’m looking for here, I might need to try that for other things I need to do.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      I’ve used these screencapture programs with success: Microsoft Expression Encoder, Blueberry Flashback, and Jing

      A a good free option for video compression is HandBrake – however, if you are already compressing when you export from Premiere, it would probably be blurry.

      I don’t know if this is helpful, but I usually do training videos for a software – and I do “customize” my size to normal web standards when I export from Premiere to 720×1280.

      If you’re posting the videos on Youtube though, you shouldn’t compress them beforehand – YouTube does it for you (so you could be accidently double-compressing it)

      1. White Mage*

        I think using “condensing” wasn’t the right word in my OP, but I immediately run into issues as soon as I import into Camtasia or Premiere where the text looks awful. I figured out in Premiere how to fix that, but I always have issues exporting anything of decent quality and I’m not even compressing it. I’m not even at the point where I have anything good to upload to YouTube.

        1. GigglyPuff*

          I had to create a video last year in Camtasia from just screenshots, it turned out to be pretty nice quality. Are you doing the screen capture thru Camtasia? or another program?

            1. GigglyPuff*

              How good of a monitor are you using? My screenshots were just awful on my computer, but I managed to find a high-res monitor at work I could use and it made all the difference. I’d see if that’s an option.

        2. LQ*

          When you export it to other formats do you get the same issue? (I know Camtasia at least comes with their own player and you can export with that.)
          Are you exporting it in the “upload me directly to YouTube” thing? (I don’t know what it is called exactly.) Or exporting to something else and then uploading?

          1. White Mage*

            I’ve tried AVI, MPEG-4, and MOV, probably others. Never directly to YouTube, always as one of those types of files because we use them for other purposes outside of YouTube. Every time the quality is bad.

  33. Academic transition?*

    Three related questions:
    1) I’m finishing up my PhD and applying for a non-academic job that was posted (on the premise that you get to pick 2 of 3 (people, place, position). The post isn’t too much of a stretch (a bit of a third sector / academic hybrid) and I have good academic experience with public engagement etc. I study how rival chocolate teapot makers / makers in different contexts market their teapots, this agency studies tea drinkers generally – what they do, how they think, etc. How do I address this in a cover letter? Most people within the organisation have advanced degrees if not PhDs so maybe it is self-explanatory?

    2) How do I broach this with my supervisor? I love academia – like the research, love the teaching but I have a husband, and a cat, and baby plans and I can’t imagine sacrificing everything for a series of short-term positions all over the country.

    3) I’m actively TTC. In the unlikely scenario of getting babied up + getting the job, what do I do? I’m in the UK so maternity leave is a longer process although my partner should be able to take quite a bit of time paid.

    1. Lady Kelvin*

      In reference to #2: I think most PhD advisors understand not wanting to go into academics given the current state of lack of tenure track positions, glut of adjunct positions, lack of job security, etc etc etc. So I wouldn’t worry about that at all. Of the five PhD students in my group, I think 1? maybe going into academics, but at undergraduate schools rather than large research schools, and my advisor totally understands.

    2. J.B.*

      If you do conceive, the usual advice is to bring it up to your boss when you know (or after the offer is made) and proceed from there.

    3. Nancypie*

      RE: number 3, you have no idea how long or short TTC may take, so just proceed as if you’re not, and definitely don’t put things on hold for the just in case.

    4. Tau*

      So the way I did this when I switched fields post-PhD was:

      – have an explanation for why I wasn’t going to continue in academia. This most likely shouldn’t go into the cover letter, but I might still make a short mention of “having decided not to continue in academia” or the like to stave off the worry that you’re just looking for a job to tide you over until you can get a postdoc. (I also think I was too negative and too detailed about this sometimes in interviews – brief is good.)
      – have an explanation for why I wanted this career in general and this job in particular. Again, convincing people that I was genuinely invested in this new career path and not just picking any old thing while waiting for a postdoc to appear. It helps if you can tie in your explanation for why you don’t want to continue on in academia to why this job/this career is so much more like what you want out of life.
      – talk about how the skills I gained in my PhD transfer to the new job. In your case, it sounds like you can do a lot there since it’s a related area!

      How much work you have to put in to convince people that you’re for real and not just taking second choice because you couldn’t get a postdoc will most likely vary by field – it sounds like the job you’re looking at takes a lot of escapees from academia, so you might not have to do a lot at all. But it’s worth keeping in mind.

      Also, many sympathies re: the supervisor. I was very awkward about telling mine. Just remember that they’re used to it! Not all students stay in academia, and the drawbacks of the career are real and present. And at the end of the day, they ought to know that you need to do what’s best for you, not what sounds most impressive.

    5. Overeducated*

      1) Just don’t talk a lot about academia even to say why you’re leaving. Talk about how you tried to gain public engagement experience and do research applicable to the sector because you were aiming for a job like this one, and be prepared to talk about how you see this job fitting into your post phd career trajectory. Basically tell your story as though this transition is a natural one and play up the continuity. If someone asks if you want to be a professor say “oh no I am much more attracted to X And y features of this role.” It worked well for me.

      2) Why broach it with your advisor before you have to? When you do I’d just go with the attitude of “here’s the plan and here’s why I’m excited .” I don’t know anyone whose advisor held them back.

      3) Don’t make plans around a baby before you’re pregnant.

  34. anon for this*

    I need a little advice. I’ve had two interviews with a company for a position that would be a great opportunity for me. The second interview went fairly well, and I think I have a good shot at making the next round. However. It’s across the country. Yesterday my husband’s company rescinded their years long policy of letting employees work remotely from wherever a spouse might be. He loves his job and has no desire to leave, and I don’t want him to leave something he really likes. So no move for us. I plan to tell the company if I do get called back for another interview. However, can/should I ask about possible flex arrangements? I’d be willing to work there two weeks/month and two weeks remotely. As far as I can tell, they don’t have any employees currently working remotely. Would this be an out of line question, and if not, how do I word the request?

    1. kbeers0su*

      I don’t think you can ever go wrong with asking. I would just explain that since the last time you talked your circumstances have changed- I would err on sharing exactly what happened so they don’t think you’re one of those people who waited until the late stages of a process to spring on them that you want to telecommute. Say that you’ve enjoyed talking to them, are really interested in the job, but understand that they don’t have many/any telecommuters, but you wanted to ask if it might be a possibility before you withdrawal your application all together. Good luck!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you get called back I’d say something like “Unfortunately, after our last interview, my husband’s employer rescinded their policy that would have allowed him to work remotely if I moved to Greater Timbuktu to work for your company. So, unless some kind of remote work is possible, or a split between remote and onsite work, I’m afraid I have to withdraw my application.” That lets them know that you weren’t leading them on, that you’re still interested in the job, and that there are certain circumstances where it would work, but you’re not actually ASKING them. Because yeah, I do think it’s a lot to ask.

    3. Laura*

      It’s certainly worth asking, especially since it’ll demonstrate your genuine interest. You’ve been put in an impossible place, and you can explain the situation to the company. If they really love you, they’ll try to make it happen!

  35. Merry and Bright*

    I have an Outlook question to ask. I know stuff has come up recently about the etiquette and irritations of requesting delivery and read receipts for emails. Well, someone from senior management at my organisation sets up his emails to request a deletion receipt as in “Appollo has requested a receipt when you delete this message”. I have never had this from anyone else here or any other job.

    Out of curiosity, has anyone else come across this? And how would you set it up? This has totally baffled my whole team. We have searched Outlook Help and Google but can’t find how this is done!

    1. Jules the First*

      He could be using a non-Outlook client to manage his email (naughty boy!)

      Or it could be that he’s configured all his email to send read receipts, in which case you’ll get prompted to send a ‘deleted unread’ response when you try to delete the message (if you read the message only in your preview pane, Outlook usually considers it ‘unread’ from a delivery perspective).

    2. Cloud city*

      I believe it’s a quirk of Outlook’s behaviour that appears when a message was flagged for a read receipt but got deleted unread/unopened. When you later go to permanently delete the message it gives you that dialog. So there’s no specific “delete receipt” setting, and he’s not doing it intentionally.

    3. Merry and Bright*

      Thank you, both of you, for answering my question. This all makes sense. Like I said above, it’s had us all really puzzled!

  36. Anonytricycle*

    What do you do when your two coworkers only want to talk to you socially/go out when the other (her work BFF) isn’t there? It feels pretty crappy, though I haven’t said anything. I went to college with Sara, who started here before I did, and Betty is the older coworker in the cube next to mine. But both Sara and Betty will ignore morning greetings and go for coffee/tea/lunch together without inviting me, unless the other isn’t there. Then whichever one is there will be IMing me and stopping by my cube to fall all over herself to invite me to coffee/tea/lunch.

    I get that I’m the Work Friends Third Wheel, and that’s fine! I don’t feel the need to have a Best Friend At Work, I’m here to work not to be buddy-buddy. But it still feels rude to be ignored until it’s convenient for one of them (usually Sara) to avoid feeling lonely. (I’m of the mindset that Pema Chödrön has it right: “Loneliness is not a problem. Loneliness is nothing to be solved.”) Should I continue to suck it up and ignore the rudeness? Is there a good script for that, or to gently bring it up?

    1. esra*

      I’ll be real with you, I’d probably start inviting myself, or asking to come along, to coffee/tea/lunch. I mean, they’re clearly cool with your company. If they’ve worked together longer, they’ve probably just got into a routine.

    2. Guam Mom*

      I wish I had a script for you, especially with the degree of rudeness you’ve indicated, but in my experience people who can’t see that they are being rude (or possibly can see and don’t care?) are not usually receptive to you pointing it out.
      I’ve been in a similar boat for the last year or so, and have finally just come to accept that they just prefer each others company to mine. Its not really about me so much as it is about them and their preferences. It’s annoying and sometimes it stills stings a bit, but thankfully no one is downright rude to me (everyone says good morning to one another although I always initiate) and I just get on with my day. I also don’t jump at all of their “help me my BFF isn’t in for the day so let’s get lunch” invites–I go if I feel like going, and decline if I don’t. For me, people who consider me to be “Option B” aren’t exactly people I want to spend a lot of time trying to figure out–instead I’ve branched out and am working on developing friendships with other members of our larger team who I have stuff in common with. It’s slow going, but I feel a lot better about the situation overall now that I’m trying to change something I can change. I wish you the best of luck.

    3. NicoleK*

      They are your colleagues, not your friends. If you’re feeling “used” then don’t engage.

    4. Kate the Little Teapot*

      I think that you can ignore this if the situation is fine with you. I sympathize completely because there are a number of people in my remote office who will talk to me only if the folks they are buddy-buddy with are not around. In some cases I have decided that I simply don’t want to be “work friends” with that person.

      If it is irritating you, I’d encourage you to either find other friends in the office or start proactively asking them to lunch before they would ask each other (e.g. “Hey Betty & Sara, want to get lunch tomorrow?” at end of day). If you don’t think they are consciously excluding you, if you think it’s more unconscious, asking them to lunch regularly will eventually reprogram them into “Hey, we should ask tricycle some of/all of the time.”

      1. GovHRO*

        I would say “Darn. I’m busy today. How about [insert day all three will be in.]” That should retrain everyone.

  37. Anonymous for this post*

    Posting this vent anonymously just in case…

    The student interns started this week. This year we have three. On the first day one of them showed up in track pants and a basketball jersey and another wore a cutout dress under her blazer that showed parts of her back, stomach and hip bones. We’re an accounting/financial office and they were given instructions about the dress code before their first day. I clarified it with them and the next day it was jeans (dark wash so that counts as dressed up apparently) and a strapless romper.

    Romper girl asked me about being able to work from home. Jeans boy called in sick and then came in with a tan the next day and told some people about his day at the beach. Romper girl was sent home to change because she was practically falling out of her romper and she complained about the “oppressive” dress code. She also complained that there are not enough breaks in the day and both of them were upset when they found out that social media sites are blocked on our work computers and cell phones are supposed to be on vibrate and not played on constantly. Today romper girl asked about booking a two week vacation.

    The third one is great. She shows up on time, dresses appropriately, stays off her phone and seems hard working and eager to learn.

    It’s been a long week. Only 11 more to go, we’ll see if the other two last that long.

    1. jm*

      Yikes. You had me at track pants and basketball jersey. Maybe hand out a brochure next year with actual photos of people in appropriate attire? It’s such a shame when internships are so competitive, and 2 out of 3 of your interns seem pretty bottom of the barrel. I hope they learn a lot working with you, and change their ways ASAP!

    3. Laura*

      Are you kidding me?? Can you fire those first two? Because if that’s how they start off the summer, they have some serious flaws that I don’t think you’ll be able to correct. Yikes.

    4. Anonymous for this post*

      They are college students and unfortunately it’s not that easy to get them fired. I’m not the one who gets to make that call, I only get to make recommendations. It’s so frustrating because I know there are students who want the opportunity to learn and it’s getting wasted on these two.

    5. Tex*

      Fire them and tell the school/organization exactly what happened. The school should have at least minimally prepped them before sending them out into the real world (I’m assuming this is high school and not college.) I would fire them sooner than later because there are probably good kids out there that would love to take advantage of this opportunity.

      As for the students not taking it seriously, I’m guessing it’s because it’s not a paid internship and that you were assigned students rather than interviewing them. Either way, it’s a tough life lesson that they get to learn from early on.

      1. Anonymous for this post*

        They are college students, although given their behavior it is easy to mistake them for high schoolers. The internships are not given through any school program, they are “independent” and the students went through the process of getting hired on their own. They are required to be students to apply but no school facilitates their applications. We do pay them and give experience, so there is an incentive for them to take it seriously. Unfortunately the two I’m having trouble with seem to think they can stop being serious now that the interview is over and they got theeoreibke position.

        1. Anonymous for this post*

          Gah! Got *the* position. I don’t even know what my autocorrect was doing there.

        2. Janice in Accounting*

          Oh, my. A strapless romper. I just . . .hmm.

          My suggestion would be to sit them down separately and privately and explain that in your office, there are certain expectations regarding the dress code, cell phone and social media use, and vacation time (two weeks during an internship = no), and if they cannot meet those expectations within the next week then the continuation of their internship will have to be reevaluated. They don’t know you can’t fire them yourself, and at any rate you do have the authority to make strong recommendations in that direction, so I think you’re safe to say it.

          And if they show up Monday wearing bikini tops and Uggs then please report back.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’ve been lucky that this was not a common problems where I worked, still this is never fun and I always end up feeling like a meanie on the few times I’ve had to talk with interns about this. I’ve had to have “the talk” with a male employee who did not bathe regularly and whose hair never quite made it to dreadlocks. I never said anything about the hair. Of course, it didn’t help when there were several supervisors in other departments who had similar hygiene problems.

      The worst ones I’ve had to deal with were the children of other employees. I had to have a talk with one who should have been filing (yeah, I know it’s dull and boring) and instead spent a couple of hours visiting with people in a different department.

  38. Roscoe*

    This is something I was wondering about based on a question from this morning. When, if ever, is separating activities by gender ok? As a real example, my company is about 50/50 men and women (might not be exact percentages, but pretty close). On a few occasions, there have been nights when an email has gone out to all the women and they have had ladies nights where they get cocktails and go dancing. Of course not all the women go, but it is an exclusively women’s event. What does everyone think of this? Is it ok? Would it be ok to have guys nights as well? Does it matter the makeup of the company or what? I’m curious to actual opinions, not attacking or anything like that.

    1. Ad Astra*

      I’m not in love with the idea of an office-organized ladies night, but it doesn’t bother me the same way a guys’ night would bother me. In both cases, it’s possible for the excluded gender to miss out on valuable professional networking, putting them at a disadvantage. The difference is that women are continually put at a disadvantage, so the impact of a guys’ night is greater than that of a ladies’ night.

      It would be better to a) organize events privately when they’re truly social in nature, and b) invite the entire office or team or whatever unit to bonding-type events.

      Even better, it helps to choose bonding activities that a variety of people are likely to enjoy. Cookouts are a better option than golf or rock climbing, for instance. It’s not always possible to find an activity everyone likes, but it helps to avoid activities that are strongly slanted toward a certain type of person (whether it’s gender-based or based on something like athleticism or strongly geared toward extroverts or what have you).

      1. Kelly L.*

        I had a long response typed out, and this is better than what I was typing. Good post.

      2. J.B.*

        I think that neither a ladies night nor a mans night should be a company sponsored event at all. I totally agree with your last two paragraphs. Part of the problem with this mornings post is that it was so blatant, in your face, and discussed at length at work with efforts to persuade other men to participate. It would be different if it were done totally outside of company time, even though the woman would probably still be at a disadvantage.

    2. Jubilance*

      I don’t think those types of activities should be apart of the workplace, as sanctioned company events. Of course you can’t stop people who are friends from organizing their own thing, but sending out a company-wide email makes it seem like the company ok’s this.

    3. Not Karen*

      As someone who is genderqueer but perceived as a woman, I am opposed to any and all gender-specific events.

    4. Lily Evans*

      Ideally there would be no gender based activities in the workplace. But the, for lack of a better word, okay-ness of such events largely depends on the nuances of the situation. If the office is split 50/50 by gender and the women going to ladies’ nights are at the same peer level that’s not as bad as an office with two men where the higher up women only invite their women subordinates to social events. The second scenario directly impacts the two men’s ability to bond with their superiors, while the first situation the men in the office are being left out of bonding with their women peers. But just because something is “more okay” doesn’t mean it should happen at all.

    5. Triangle Pose*

      Even if your company has a 50/50 gender split, your industry could be male dominated or the management team/high level execs have a way higher percentage of men. This is very prevalent in finance, law, business, accounting, etc. To illustrate, here are more male CEOs named John than all women CEOs put together, in fact, among CEOs of S.&P. 1500 firms, for one woman, there are four men named John, Robert, William or James.

      I think it makes sense to have women’s networking events or women’s groups. The point is inclusion in the face of exclusion.

    6. Laura*

      This is the 21st century. There should be NO gender-segregated events in the workplace, or sponsored by the workplace.

    7. CM*

      On one hand, I agree with Triangle Pose that networking can be a necessity when you’re part of a group that is typically marginalized (and I’ve always worked in male-dominated industries). On the other, I don’t like women’s-only events that exclude men. I wouldn’t like it if there were a men’s-only event that I couldn’t attend. I prefer events that are focused on women or a minority group but allow anybody to attend. The exception is if the point of the activity is to share your thoughts on your own experiences and it would be less effective to have somebody saying, “Well, you’re accusing me of being sexist and I treat everyone the same and you’re just overreacting…”

    8. LisaLee*

      I don’t think there’s a place for gender-specific events in the workplace. Of course occasionally a professional organization will do something like “Women in X Industry Night,” but I don’t think individual workplaces should do those things. It leads to a lot of resentment and inequality, and inevitably it leaves somebody feeling weird.

      I think there might be a little bit of room for individual coworkers to arrange these things, though. I feel like that’s a bit different that the company itself doing it.

    9. Ad Girl*

      I am curious to see all the opinions on this as well!

      My company actually had a female-only event (that they sponsored) last month and I thought it was kind of interesting. Women’s Build week for habitat is in May, so they sponsored us doing a women’s build day on a Saturday.

      I had a lot of fun and really enjoyed it, but I kind of wondered why they didn’t just pick a weekend where it could be a regular habitat build, so we aren’t excluding anyone based on gender.

    10. Student*

      It’s wrong when men do it, and it’s wrong when women do it.

      Why are you excluding the men? If the answer is along the lines of, “We expect men to behave poorly around women and alcohol”, then that’s pretty sexist. Dis-invite people who misbehave, not entire categories of people.

    11. Chaordic One*

      Gee, this makes me feel old. Back in the day all of the support staff were female. Then, finally, one of the few female department heads hired a male secretary. It was a bit awkward at first, but he was a nice enough guy and was included in all of the activities that, until then, had been female only. He was the first man I ever saw invited to a baby shower for one of the other secretaries. Stuff like that. Then a second man was hired, and a third. Over time it just kind of became normal for office events to be co-ed.

  39. LiteralGirl*

    I transition to my new job (within the same company) on the 13th and am scared! I’ve been in my position for 4 years and have gotten really comfortable – with the people, the work, etc. – so much so that I’ve become what I would consider a slacker. I’m looking forward to learning new things and having challenges that make me step up my game.

    1. Ismis*

      I’m sure you’ll be fine – a change of scenery (even within the same company) should reset your thinking so you step up. Best of luck!

  40. "Computer Science"*

    Another dollar, another day of trying tonset firm boundaries with a coworker who doesn’t seem to respect my work schedule. The third time they talked to me through their break this week, I tried to nicely remind them that this break wasn’t a shared experience (“I’d love to chat more, but my break isn’t for another hour, so I really have to get back to it.”) and they cried at the presumed rejection. They’re about 25 years my senior and going through some major life changes, and presumably looking for emotional supports, and I just can’t seem to find a direct or indirect way of making it clear that it’s not going to be me. Headphones don’t work, and I’m not able to change desks. My current strategy is to just very animatedly perform my work tasks, but it’s getting exhausting.

    Does anyone have surefire boundary-setting methods?

    1. fposte*

      Yes, but they’re not legal.

      I think you’ve posted about this before, but I can’t remember–what does your manager say about this? “My co-worker cries when I tell her I have to do work instead of listening to her” is a pretty extreme situation that I wouldn’t necessarily expect somebody to fix on their own. I’m guessing there’s no place you could be moved to?

      In the meantime, I’d say it directly and let the tears fall where they may. “Jane, I can’t give you the kind of listening you deserve and still do my job, and I’m going to have to go with the job. I know that upsets you but I hope you’ll understand that I need to do the work while I’m here.” That gives you a callback of “Sorry, gotta do the job, Jane.”

      If you think she’d be receptive to a therapy recommendation, that sounds like the most useful thing.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you talk to her at a point where she is not taking her break and therefore not expecting your attention?
      “Jane, we need to have a brief chat. I have noticed that when you take your break you like to talk with me. I am still on the clock. I cannot take extra breaks. Additionally, I don’t think I have the life experience/other qualifications to talk about your situation with you. So not only am I not doing my job, I am also failing you as someone who could say something helpful. I am in trouble on all sides on this one. I must ask you to please stop chatting with me while you are on your break. Will you do that?”

      If she starts crying, pretend not to notice just restate, “Can you do that, please?”

      If she forgets and starts in talking with you, then say, “Uh, Jane, you said you understood that I am working now. And you agreed that you would not use your break time to chat with me because I am still on the clock.”

    3. NicoleK*

      “It sounds like you’re having a tough time. Perhaps it will be helpful to speak to a professional. Here’s the number for the EAP….”

    4. Joanna*

      I recently had a similar situation, although mine it was a coworker repeatedly coming to find me in the lunch-room while on my much needed brief breaks to ask questions about work processes that they shouldn’t have been directing to me in the first place. My responses were something like “Charlie, I know it’s difficult being a new person here because there’s so many things you have to learn and ask about. However, I’ve got a lot on the go at the moment so to stay sane I really do need to take a break during my break time rather than talking work. Questions like the one you’ve asked are ones you should be directing to your trainer Maria. If she can’t help you with this, come see me when I’m back at my desk.” The key thing I was trying to do was make it clear the problem was not that they had questions, the problem was the context they were picking to ask them in. I also had a brief word with his manager as I suspected if he was asking me these questions, things might not be working great with his trainer.

  41. JC Denton*

    I just went through a really protracted job search. I’ve mostly enjoyed working for my current company. Unfortunately, our current division is undergoing a bit of a managerial coup because the division lead has become painfully lame (duck). Instabilities inside this division lead me to “packing my parachute” late last year. I finally got the offer I really, really wanted a few weeks ago.

    Here’s the rub. The transition to a “final offer” for this company can easily take up to six months. It’s just the nature of my industry. During that time the job may completely disappear. How do you stay motivated and engaged in your current role when you know it’s like the ship heading for yet another iceberg? I’ve fended off other opportunities, but I still do get requests to interview both internally and externally. Am I doing myself a disservice by turning these down?

    I’m also desperately trying to avoid getting sucked into the politics of the coup. I want to join and say something, since I do feel it’s a situation in need of a fix and others want me to throw in my political capital. At the same time though, I’m hesitant to stick my head out and put myself in a sore spot – especially if the other job doesn’t finally materialize!

    Penny for your thoughts?

    1. enough*

      I would go with the you don’t have the job till you have the job. For companies that can take this long to finalize the hire losing the candidate is the cost of business they have to bear. And especially as you say the job may just disappear you should definitely keep looking.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would not get locked into this one company that extended an offer.
      If you do not like the company you are in and the whole point of job hunting was to get out of the company entirely, then I would chose to look at offers/conversations about other companies.

      As far as day-to-day stuff my suggestion is to do and say the things you would ordinarily do/say if you were NOT leaving the job. This means no grandstanding, of course. And it also means remaining proactive. Offer suggestions/ideas that would actually benefit Current Job.

      On a private level, to stay motivated I would think about my resume and references. I’d try to keep myself engaged by telling myself this stuff looks good on a resume. And I’d want people to remember how professional I am so I would make sure that my actions/work/thoughts were top notch. I’d strive to end it on a high note.

  42. Aurion*

    Oof. I get trying to be encouraging to people entering the workforce, but sometimes social media goes way too far.

    Saw a post on my dashboard along the lines of “don’t let old people devalue the skills you totally have. Don’t know something? Google it, and 20 minutes later you’re an expert! People in my office look at me like I’m a wizard for using italics. If you can use Photoshop to make icons of Natalie Dormer look pretty, congrats, you’re a photo editor! If you can copy/paste CSS themes into your Tumblr/LJ and change the colours, you’re a web developer! Crotchety old men devalue us superstars etc etc.”

    Now, if the post had told you to claim the web dev title if you could write the CSS to make the pretty themes, maybe they’d have a point, but it specifically said copy/paste. And using italics in a Word doc. I mean, I can do most of the stuff they listed (pretty long list), but that by no means makes me a social media manager, photo editor, web developer, or any of that because I know how to apply default filters in an image-editing program.

    I feel like these posts harm rather than help, because rather than making the readers confident, it just gives them a artificially inflated view of their skills. It was geared towards fans, and I’ll be the first to admit fandom can develop a wide breadth of skills (long time fan myself), but I don’t think that list quite meets the bar.

    Oy vey.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      People in my office look at me like I’m a wizard for using italics.

      One can’t help but wonder where this person works.

      (Oh, hey, look. I’m a wizard.)

      1. Lily Evans*

        Well, I taught a coworker how to create a Word doc the other day so I believe it. Also, my dad works in an office and I had to tell him that his emails to my sister’s teacher weren’t sending because you don’t put www . in front of an email address.

        But I’d never generalize that those things mean everyone older than me is clueless about how computers work.

      2. Ama*

        Ten years ago I had a job like this (I was good at formatting tables in Word — my bosses, who were lovely people but not great with technology, thought I was a design genius). However, I knew that didn’t make me a designer, it just made me well suited to that particular job.

    2. LisaLee*

      On the one hand, as someone who grew up in the computer age, I do get a bit annoyed when companies don’t seem to recognize tech skills gained off-the-job. I actually just got rejected from a job because I couldn’t “prove” that I knew how to use MS Word because it wasn’t a program I use in my current job. But obviously, as a person with a humanities BA earned in the 21st century, I can use MS Word. I know people who develop professional-looking websites for friends as a hobby, but have no real way of proving it on a resume. And I do think that there’s something to be said for being able to figure out these skills even if you have no formal training in them.

      On the other hand, this is completely the wrong way to go about saying that. The whole “old people can’t use computers!!” thing is wrongheaded and doesn’t make this person look good.

      1. Aurion*

        I totally agree that one can learn job skills off the job (that’s what the whole Github and portfolio thing is for programmers, right?). But I think using “copy/paste other people’s CSS” as the bar for web developer, even a junior web developer, is far too low. If they had said “if you can write the code for making pretty themes for Tumblr”, that’d be an entirely different story. And I do feel like tweeting to your own Twitter, writing post for your own Instagram, etc. is an entirely different beast than doing it in a professional capacity. Most people don’t give too much thought to people’s personal social media accounts, but if you’re doing it as a job then you need to know how to write it so that it actually attracts views, increase brand recognition, or whatever. Doing these things professionally is entirely different than doing it in one’s personal life, even if you can learn some of the skills in your personal life.

        Man, I’m not old enough to be having “get off my lawn” moments.

        1. LisaLee*

          That’s true, there are shades of these things. I think social media is one of those fields where the qualifications are going to have to get a lot more specific in the next few years–if you’ve got a personal blog with several thousand readers, how does that stack up against someone who runs a corporate blog with a hundred readers, for example. I used to work in publishing where the boundary between work and personal tasks can be VERY blurry–lots of coworkers were part-time writers, part-time publicists/editors/web designers, etc, and often we ran into the question of what qualified someone.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Companies ignoring any skill gained off-job has been going on for decades. It’s not only with computers.

        Sadly, for some employers their ONLY gauge is if someone else actually paid you to do X. If you do X for no pay, that does not count. They can only figure out if you are good at something if you can show you were paid to do it.

        Then there’s other employers that want to know what you do for fun. Someone clinched a job because of his huge model train layout. It’s not possible to wire all that without knowing anything about wiring. His example worked because of the amount of transferable knowledge he was able to describe. The pattern here seems to be if you do not get paid to do it, then make darn sure you absolutely dazzle them with what you have done and be prepared to explain how the knowledge is transferable to their work, because the bridge over will not be apparent to them.

        I leave stuff off my resume because I can’t dazzle and I can’t find a bridging path. What happens next, something comes up, I suggest this or I do that and a boss will say, “I didn’t know you had experience with x.” hmm.

  43. Anonymous147*

    I just found out that my mother has breast cancer. My husband and I have been through hell over the past year—his mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and just passed away 2 months ago… So even though this is treatable, it’s still really scary news, and it’s my mother, whom I’m extremely close to.

    I told my bosses via email about it (because I work remotely) and that I’ll need to be at her surgery, and a doctor’s appointment coming up—only one of them responded… The other didn’t say a word. This was yesterday midday. However, the boss that didn’t respond to that responded to a few other task related emails very promptly, like I never even sent the email. She has seemed a little chilly towards me lately, and I’ve been trying not to take it personally, but to not say anything at all—even something like “Thinking of you”? I’m at a loss. I thought maybe she didn’t read the email, or maybe she thought he was speaking for both of them… but I would never just not respond to something like that. Do you think I’m overreacting because of my delicate emotional state?

    1. LQ*

      I think some people have a really hard time knowing what to say because thinking of you feels like it isn’t enough for something that is so difficult. It might be, if the chilly has been since you said this she might just be uncomfortable and really poorly expressing it, if she’s generally good then I’d think of it that way.

      It sounds like a really challenging situation and I want to say something comforting and supportive but I’m not sure what works for you and I hope that you have the other support in your life that you need.

      1. Anonymous147*

        I see your point. In the past, I’ve had a really tough time knowing what to say to others—but I’ve always made a point to say something (even if I think it isn’t good enough). Now that I’ve been on the other side of it, and am still, it just blows my mind that someone could just ignore it all together…

        She has been c0ld to me lately—the past few weeks or so, before she got this news. Part of me wonders if she’s thinking, “It’s just one thing after another—she’ll need more time off” since they gave me 3 days off to grieve my mother-in-law, which was right after a 4-day vacation by coincidence (a couple months ago).

    2. kbeers0su*

      There are many of us out there who are super awkward when these sort of announcements are made. I have never, never, never been comfortable with any response that I’ve given to people. “I’m sorry” doesn’t work, because I didn’t do anything. “Praying for you” is a no go because I don’t pray. “Sorry you’re going through this” doesn’t seem supportive enough. “Thinking of you” seems vague. So sometimes silence is the most comfortable way to respond…

      And I’m sorry that you’re going through this (although I just said that I hate saying that).

      1. Anonymous147*

        Thank you.

        I’ve had a tough time knowing what to say to others in the past also. I understand it’s awkward. To not acknowledge it at all is just thoughtless to me. To think of anything to email back would be better than nothing… she said something thoughtful when I lost my mother-in-law—so I know she’s capable… I realize I haven’t lost my mom, but it’s devastating news. My other boss was capable of saying something thoughtful, so it’s just bugging me.

    3. Laura*

      Was your email excessively detailed? Your boss may be uncomfortable with the situation and not know what to say, which isn’t polite but it is understandable.

      1. Anonymous147*

        It wasn’t too detailed. I elaborated on a couple necessary details, but I’m not sure what that has to do with making her uncomfortable. It’s not like I told her where the tumor was located or anything of the like. I think it’s rude of her not to respond, but I guess I can understand being uncomfortable.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think that telling yourself that you are overreacting is a good default answer. Especially if everything else seems normal.

      I have buried a few people now and one thing that has helped me is to remind myself that I don’t get to pick who has what reaction. The beautiful thing about this is that I started noticing reactions from many people. So the person who I saw in passing once a day ended up showing more concern than my two bosses COMBINED. We just don’t get to pick who says and does what. (shaking my head)

      Tell yourself whatever you need to, in order to put it in the best light possible. Save the bulk of your energy for helping your mom and your family. It’s also good to remember that grief is not just for death, it is also for illness and many other sadnesses in life. Grief runs all over the map and often times comes out as anger or irritation. Oddly, the number one thing to do when we see this is to be gentle and kind to ourselves. Take care of you.

      My prayers and warm wishes go out to your mom, you and your fam.

      1. Anonymous147*

        You make a good point about not being able to control how others react. Everything else doesn’t really seem normal though—she has been cold to me lately, so this compounded on top of that and made me wonder what is going on. However, this boss, in particular, can be quite fickle and unpredictable in her behavior, so it’s hard to say what’s going on with her. It could be something going on with her, and have nothing to do with me I guess.

        I agree that grief is definitely not just for death—I experienced it for the entire year that my MIL was sick, and am experiencing it now. Thank you for the advice—I can’t waste my time trying to figure her out—I have enough going on.

        Thank you.

  44. Statue of Limitations?*

    Question for Alison– “If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.”

    How do you define “recently”?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Last few weeks? (I often answer questions that are much older than that, but I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than that when it’s not guaranteed.) But also, you’re welcome to email me and ask if it’s about to be answered or not, and I can always tell you yes or to go ahead here.

    3. Bigglesworth*

      Alison took a few weeks to answer my question, but she was also waiting on her lawyer contact to respond. I just shot her a quick email asking if I was in the list of questions that were going to be answered or if I should post here. She let me know that she was going to respond soon. She’s really good about letting you know if you follow up. :)

  45. Red*

    Payroll question!!

    I have a salaried/exempt position (management) and also a secondary “supplemental” position (production) for my employer. The supplemental position is 0-12 hours per week, at my complete discretion, with no set schedule or minimum number of hours or anything, paid at straight time at an hourly rate on a separate paycheck from my salaried one (with appropriate taxes deducted). However, for 3 of the last six pay periods, they’ve added evening and weekend shift differentials to my supplemental hours which to my knowledge should not be added. I’ve mentioned it to my boss, who has mentioned it to her payroll contact, who is “looking into it,” but every time this happens they’re overpaying me to the tune of about $90 (since I do the majority of these supplemental hours on weekends) and none of the contact with the payroll person has mentioned paying it back, either by reimbursing the company or having it deducted from future paychecks. Who is obligated to do what here? My personal inclination is to take the overage and stick it into a side savings account, to be considered either an eventual windfall or an eventual payback, but how long do I hold onto it?

    1. LCL*

      When are you working the supplemental hours? Why do you believe you shouldn’t be paid differential? How is the differential actually added to your hours-by hand like I spend hours doing, or is it automated?
      I wonder if what is happening is your time keeping is partly automated, so the computer adds differential to anyone working those hours that qualify for differential?
      I know I didn’t answer your question, I would need to know how your pay is processed to do that.

      1. Red*

        I generally work at least 9 of the supplemental hours on the weekends, sometimes the other 3 are evenings and sometimes they’re also weekends, but because of my regular job (which is 7-4 M-F, give or take) all my supp hours are worked evenings or weekends. They told us (this is not uncommon in my teapot factory — quite a few of us were hourly and getting 10-20 hours of OT per week, so when we were promoted to newly created salaried positions they offered us the supplemental jobs as an option to replace the OT) that shift differentials were only applicable to primary jobs, not supplemental jobs, which was agreed to all around. Our regular salaried jobs are automated, it defaults to 8 hours per day, and we manually clock in for the supplemental positions.

        I’m not sure whether the diff is being added manually or automatically — it was added one pay period, they said “oops our bad, use this code when you clock in,” we started using that code, the next two pay periods had no diff on them, and then poof, the last two (using the same clock code) have had the diff.

    2. Editor*

      I would put it aside in some way because it will have to be paid back, probably either in the calendar year or before the end of the company’s fiscal year.

      Does your employer use a payroll company like Ceridian to cut checks? If so, the problem may be that the payroll company’s software is part of the problem and it isn’t just a case of having your payroll person fixing something simple. I think you should just ask what the timetable is for paying back the overage — that shows them you are aware of having to pay it back — which means the payroll person may dread the conversation less, especially if the error was due to someone messing up rather than a software problem.

      1. LCL*

        Yeah, since you all agreed to these conditions it sounds like they will ask for it back. Though the process may be so cumbersome your company may decide to fix it but not take back the overpayment. What may be happening is there is a point in the payroll process where a human looks at your pay and thinks that you should be getting the differential because of the hours that you worked so they add it.

  46. Nervous Accountant*

    Perfect timing here….

    I just recently found out my company has an employee referral program. When I was a new, seasonal employee, I referred a contact who was hired FT/permanent who was a successful hire. Our HR person at the time said it didn’t exist.

    Recently found out from both my manager AND boss that referral bonus was in effect at that time, and in fact, it may be going up this year! I told them what HR told me, they said go ahead and ask the new HR person, it won’t hurt to ask. So I emailed HR and waiting on a response, I think in a very friendly and nice tone, not at all bitter or upset? But what now?

    If they refuse–can I argue my case? I’m already thinking of the counter argument (loop in my manager/boss, I’ve been here long and proved a track record of success, high performer etc, it’s a gesture of good will etc) etc? There was nothing in writing. The ONLY reason I can see it being an issue is bc I was seasonal at the time, but as a seasonal person I did get the same perks as all the FT staff at the time (a free day off, invited to the work events, etc) so I don’t honestly think it should be an issue. The HR person is new, and things are kinda diff now (I’ve been here 18 months, 14 as a ft/perm).

    CAN I argue if they refuse? If so, what do I say?

    1. Ell like L*

      If they refuse, I would ask your boss about it in a neutral tone and see what they suggest on how to approach it. But arguing with a brand new HR person would not be something I would do – you really would need to think about the possible consequences of that first.

      Following up on the email is also probably something I might just pop into their office for, depending on your office culture. That would be taken as less adversarial than a formal email where I work.

      Also, I think that “argue” is probably not the approach you want to take IF you choose to appeal the decision.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      Yeah, I think argue is too harsh of a word and I def don’t intend to do that and I think my email was very nice tone, but I didn’t use it in my email wtih her promise! :)

      She did just respond back saying, it’s a brand new program.

      I’m lost now bc I KNOW this program was there before. I did CC my boss’s boss on it, and thinking of approaching her in person sometime next week, but beyond that idk what to say/do.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        If they say no, just respectfully ask why. Listen to the facts of their answer. If one of the facts is in error then mention that.

        I am not sure why you cc’ed your boss’ boss. I think at this point I would just let it rest for a few weeks. HR may not know what TPTB want to do and it may take awhile for HR to extract an answer from them.

    3. CMT*

      How much is the referral bonus? This sounds like one of those things that technically you could push back on, but that would probably do more harm than good.

  47. Anon Required*

    I was just contacted by an old classmate because her manager is looking to hire someone who was recently let go from the company I work for. We’ll call this potential employee Susan.

    I worked directly with Susan and many employees had inter-personal issues with her. I came to find out after she left that she had been telling people I would yell/cry during our work conversations (I have never yelled or cried at work). She was one cause (there were multiple now being addressed) of a very high level of employee turnover during her time with us. On top of that, the projects that she had been managing were in a very bad state (and are still trying to recover at this time).

    The classmate asked if I could provide my experience/thoughts on working with Susan for her and her manager. I have never been in this situation before and I am not sure how to respond. This field in my area is VERY small and I do not want to do anything to jeopardize my professionalism.

    HELP!

    2. Ell like L*

      I would tell the truth. This is what reference checks are for. You definitely don’t want to say something that’s positive when you don’t feel that way, that would jeopardize your reputation far more than giving an honest reference.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I don’t want to get into details, but I cannot give her a positive recommendation.”

      (Assuming that’s true… personally, I don’t think giving factual details is unprofessional, but don’t do it if it bothers you.)

    5. Emilia Bedelia*

      Be honest but instead of offering “thoughts”, as your classmate said, say facts. Say “several of her projects were found to be lacking, and she had many disagreements with coworkers over whatever” rather than “She was terrible and I think you’d be making a big mistake” . You never know if they’re looking for someone who’s combative and not a good manager, so give them the opportunity to decide whether they’re interested or not.

  48. anonykins*

    I currently live in Astapor, on the other side of the world from my home country Westeros. I’m leaving here on July 1, and I’ve been trying to interview for jobs in various cities in my home country. I had a really great set of interviews with a potential employer, the Martells, in Dorne, which I’ve never lived in but is located in Westeros. The Martells heavily hinted they were getting ready to send me an offer, but at the last moment the HR person said that they were no longer hiring for the position due to some company restructuring. I was pretty disappointed, as this job sounded like a great fit for my skills, but as Alison suggests I moved on. I started aggressively applying for jobs in my hometown, Riverrun, because at least there I’d have some family support during my job search.

    I recently bought my ticket back to Riverrun, but now the Martells have contacted me saying they’re ready to hire for the position and were impressed by me and would like to talk to me! When we originally talked, I said I wouldn’t need relocation costs (since I was coming back to Westeros whether they hired me or not). If they extend an offer and want me in Dorne ASAP, would it be inappropriate for me to now ask them to cover the cost of a ticket change from Riverrun to Dorne? It would be at most a few hundred dollars, versus the thousand that the ticket actually cost.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think you wouldn’t be out of line to say something along the lines of “Unfortunately I had no idea this was a possibility and the focus of my search shifted, and I’ve been in the process of moving to another location in Westeros. I’d be very excited to join you in Dorne, but would it be possible for you to cover the cost of changing my existing ticket?”

      If they say no, they say no. On the other hand if they are in any way put off by that, I’d say that’s actually a company you might not want to work for – considering that they switched direction on you and should be able to acknowledge that there’s unexpected impact from that.

      1. anonykins*

        Thanks for the script. I’ll try it out! I just got contacted by a company in Riverrun that also might be making me an offer in the next few days so I could have competing offers :O First time for that! So glad I’ve been reading AAM so that now (I think) I can handle it!

  49. BRR*

    How much do people who work from home invest in their home office? I work from home two days a week and I feel like my setup is lacking. My employer will not pay for anything. I specifically would like a monitor and keyboard. I just don’t want to spend any money not knowing what my future jobs will be. Then I feel kind of silly because a monitor is around $100.

    1. Red*

      I work from home full time and the only thing my employer provides is the computer, including two monitors. (They would also give me a keyboard and mouse, but I chose to provide my own instead.) I’ve spent probably $500 on desk/chair? Mostly the chair, because I work from a big extra-wide stuffed armchair because my dogs like to get up in the chair with me and nap next to me while I work :P

      Is it possible to go to your IT staff and ask if they have a spare monitor/keyboard that you could use for work-at-home purposes? Failing that, I personally would think $100 was a reasonable investment for my comfort, but that’s just me. (I would love to add a third monitor to my work computer on my own dime, I just don’t have enough display ports on the work box to do it. :P )

    2. SophieChotek*

      I would not want to pay out of my own pocket either.

      You might be able to get a used monitor and keyboard cheaply…or ask friends if they have one just sitting around. (A family member’s workplace always sells their used monitors super cheap when they upgrade; earlier this year they sold 18 and 24 inch monitors for $10.) Sometimes I’ve heard companies and other schools do something similar–I don’t know how you find out about that, though.

      It might not be great, but if work is giving you the harddrive part…

    3. Buggy Crispino*

      Is your WFH space something that plays dual duty? I don’t do it so much anymore, but when I did it I was working in one of the guest bedrooms – so I justified a tv/monitor as something for my guests. Actually kind of justified everything as guest room use: the sofa for my office was a pull out bed, the desk and chair was a place for them to sit when the bed was out, etc.

    4. A Definite Beta Guy*

      I shelled out about $150 cash for an oversized monitor and wireless keyboard/mouse combo.

      Amazing. I think the monitor is 21″? Way better than a 15″ laptop screen. Well worth the cash, IMO.

    5. LisaLee*

      If all you’re looking for is a monitor and keyboard, I would check around Craigslist and Ebay for deals. You can also try calling local computer repair shops, since they sometimes sell used accessories at a discount. If you’re not looking for anything fancy, there’s a lot of perfectly good used/refurbished stuff out there.

    6. teapot project manager*

      I work from home full time and my company provides the entire computer, keyboards, monitors etc. In fact their policy is we must use their equipment. A coworker tried to send back monitors as she bought some nicer and larger than her work ones and they wouldn’t take them. They also psy for my internet and work dedicated land line. I buy my own furniture, chair, desk etc.

  50. SJPufendork*

    I don’t know if I’m looking for advice, or just looking for commiseration, but earlier this week my company had to terminate someone on the spot for a violation of our data security policy. The violation was such that for contractual reason we had to terminate immediately. I’m the person who pointed it out (it’s my role) and the C-level folks backed me and signed off on the action.

    The manager of the dept in which the terminated employee worked didn’t tell her staff that it was a security violation. Instead, the phrasing was, “SJ said we had to fire . Not my decision or what I wanted at all.” No explanation of why I might have made the call to terminate or anything, so I’m sure it seemed arbitrary to walk out a well-liked long term employee.

    Not surprisingly, the remaining members of that dept are being frostily cordial in our interactions at best and are actively avoiding sending me material at worst (they send things now to my assistant instead of directly to me like they did before, so ultimately my work isn’t effected). I really get it because I’m sure they’re scared since their own management chain won’t even summarize the event or explain that it had to be done and all of the C-suite agreed.

    Anyway, it’s been a brutal week. I figure it’s not worth saying anything to their manager because in the end I still get what I need so the fact the interactions changed doesn’t really matter. Sound right to you all?

    1. Laura*

      I agree that you shouldn’t say anything to the manager unless it escalates from here. If their attitudes begin to impact your ability to work, then go for it… but for now, just be the bigger person and continue to treat them all cordially. They don’t know the intricacies of your job, or the specifics of the violation. It’s not their business. Don’t worry about it!

    2. nonegiven*

      It might be time to remind other workers to review the data security policy in case anyone else has forgotten something.

      What benefit comes from none knowing what the cause was?

      1. LQ*

        I do kind of agree that people should know that data security is important enough that if you don’t follow the rules there are consequences. I don’t know what kind of training/reminders you have, but make sure whatever it is, is absolutely covered.

      2. SJPufendork*

        We have training and testing once a year which is due to occur ~ 1 July. So that’s going to be good.

        I don’t understand why the manager didn’t indicate it was a data security violation. I suspect it has to do with the fact that she didn’t get a vote on the termination since it wasn’t negotiable. But that is solely my supposition.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Ahhhh, that sounds like a great time when maybe you could address this yourself, or encourage it to be included in the training materials if you’re not involved in doing it yourself. Something along the lines of…

          “I give this speech every year about how important this is, but I can’t stress enough that this is taken as a very big deal. A long time employee was recently let go due to a data security violation, and I would genuinely hate to see it happen to anyone else.”

    3. animaniactoo*

      I might say something along the lines of “Listen, I understand why you told people this is not what you wanted and it wasn’t your decision. However, I would appreciate it if you made it clear that this was something that Jane did wrong, and it was unfortunately a major issue and not an arbitrary minor thing that we could have chosen to overlook.”

    4. TootsNYC*

      Honestly, I would take this to HR.

      Two points: (1) You have a reputation that is worth something, and you or the company ought to be able to defend it.
      (2) People need to know how serious this data security thing is. If an otherwise good employee can end up out on their ear immediately, then people need to understand the risks. Telling people she was fired for a data security issue will alert them.

  51. Lillian McGee*

    Just something I’ve been pondering and interested to hear if anyone can relate.

    Mr. McGee is a career-hopper. Not just jobs–CAREERS. He spends about 1.5 years in a job in a completely different area from his last one before he tires of it for one reason or another and goes on to find himself a new job in a completely different area! I’d be annoyed if I wasn’t so impressed. How does he manage to do it?? He’s been a GIS mapper, an EMT, a firefighter, a train conductor, and now he’s going to be doing land surveying. Meanwhile I’ve been at the same organization (promoted consistently) for the last 6+ years. People seem impressed with how understanding I always am but he’s always brought in a paycheck (and usually better than mine grumble).

    This is weird, right??

    1. TCO*

      My husband is similar–his careers haven’t been as varied as your husband’s (wow!) but he’s made choices and leaps I wouldn’t/couldn’t make myself. I’ve just come to have a lot of faith in his talents because it always works out for him.

    3. Crylo Ren*

      Weird, but in an interesting way! As someone who is agonizing over making the first step towards a different career path (it’s tangential to what I do now, but still different), I have the same question – how does he do it? Especially after only ~1.5 years in each role?

      1. Lillian McGee*

        I think he just has the kind of personality that clicks with the managers in these fields… he’s very down-to-earth and though he has a college education he prefers to work with his hands outside with blue-collar dudes so he’s got brains and brawn?? Or maybe that’s just why I married him …

      2. Jealous Job Seeker*

        I’m jealous of him! And you! As someone unhappy in my current position and function and trying to switch to a related field with difficulty I wish I had whatever he has. Part of it might be that he is a he- men tend to be able to apply for jobs when meeting fewer requirements (not a slight on him) and so maybe thats part of it.

    4. Laura*

      Definitely weird, but if he manages to make it work, more power to him. But typically that kind of career-hopping isn’t sustainable, so hopefully he has some kind of concrete plan for when he approaches retirement.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        Thankfully, he had the wherewithal to start an IRA some time ago. A few of his jobs had 401ks or even pensions so whatever he earned in those he has been able to roll over (I think…)

    5. Aurion*

      Weird and amazing for sure. How does he talk to his interviewers about his career breadth and his potential longevity in the job he’s interviewing for?

      1. Lillian McGee*

        I know he genuinely thinks he wants to stay in the job for a long time. Like, he was certain he wanted to become a train engineer and retire after 30 years, etc. I have no idea if they ask why he leaves jobs… It’s usually for a pretty innocuous (but legitimate) reason e.g. on the railroad he was on call and wanted more stable hours.

    6. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      Does he do schooling for all of these? That sounds like it would get expensive.

        1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          Interesting. GIS holds an interest for me because I’ve always been fascinated by maps. :)

    7. Ife*

      That sounds awesome, it reminded me of Mark Twain and people like him who used to be a “jack of all trades”/taking the job that suited them at the moment. It’s much harder to do that now, because so many jobs want X years of experience, and the related degree, and references from the same field. You really get pigeon-holed very quickly. Just a few weeks ago I was looking for jobs that are Not What I Do Now (and which wouldn’t require Going Back to School again), and it was depressing how hard it was going to be to break into a different line of work just one time!

      1. JaneB*

        My sister has been rather like this – she’s done retail, hair-dressing, store display design and promotion, been a travelling sales rep/customer care specialist (for a particular brand of collectable objects, so the job included sales to smaller shops, supporting in-store units, and running collector events, for a large territory), done marketing, worked as a valuer at an estate agents (realtors in US-speak), accounting clerk, administration, baker and cake decorator, and is currently training in her spare time to be a dog behaviour specialist/pet psychologist… I probably forgot a few things in there.

        I’ve worked in one field in academia, unless you count a few summer jobs and the like whilst I was in college, and have been in my current department/line of work for 18 years (not entirely through choice, and I really really WANT to move, but… running a job search in my current line of work within this country (elderly parents, adorable niece I need to spend time occasionally before she’s too old and cool to hang out with a dorky fat aunt, I increasingly hate flying, and chronic health issues which would probably make insurance a pain, so an international search is not really practicable) means applying for maybe one-two jobs every six months, because that’s all there is. Yeah, I need to broaden out the roles I look at – but I love the WORK, I just want to get away from my BOSS (so many problems – management by insult and by creating divisions is not something I find helpful, plus they’re less qualified for the role than I am which, fine, I don’t WANT to manage, but I DO want some respect for my skills not to be patronised and lectured about how I have to do things which I am already doing better than they were) and my current employer (who thinks boss hung the moon and are terribly fond of blanket rules to fix one person’s infraction and of reorganising repeatedly), want a change of scene and some new challenges and relationships at work… so I don’t want to change lines of work.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      When he runs out of careers to try he can write a book about these experiences.

    9. TootsNYC*

      My sister’s husband is a hopper–but he quits before he gets the new gig. He decides he doesn’t like that job or career, he quits, and then he starts looking.

      So if yours is always bringing in a paycheck, I’d say he’s pretty awesome. He certainly can’t be boring to live with!

  52. LawCat*

    So I talked to my union and they will be helping me file a grievance at my job over a certain pay issue that has had me also looking for another job. I am not that optimistic about the grievance resolving things, but I have nothing to lose by going through the process. I found out about an opportunity elsewhere just this morning though and it is right up my ally so I am working on my application. I’d be thrilled to work at this other organization.

  53. Gene*

    The hiring is moving along. Of the 12 applicants we got, 4 passed the Supplemental Questionnaire, all from out of state. That wasn’t unexpected, In state, there are probably no more than about 50 people who have experience. Since everyone has to travel for the Oral Panel, we have scheduled that for middle of July to allow for reasonable travel planning instead of a week and a half from now.

    The list of the ones who pass that goes to the Civil Service Board for approval end of the month, then we can do final hiring interview from that list. It’s taking forever, but that’s how hiring in Civil Service goes.

  54. Rebecca*

    Non exempt PA office worker here. With regard to working extra hours one week, and getting out early one day the following week, to be legal, how should the company handle this?

    We are paid bi-weekly, with pay weeks running from Sunday to Saturday. So, if we work 2 hours extra in week one, and 2 hours extra in the first 4 days of week two, we can come in for 4 hours on Friday and leave @ Noon. But, our time cards reflect 40 hours for week one and 40 hours for week two, and that’s what we get paid for. I’ve been reading threads above where “comp” time should be provided @ 1.5 times the hours, since overtime hours are paid at time and a half.

    So, how should this work? 40 hours plus 2 hours OT for week one, and then 36 hours for week two? 37 hours?

    I’d like to present this to my manager, as I’m sure she is either unaware of the pay laws, or simply doesn’t care. She’s famous for saying if we don’t like how things are done, we are free to find employment elsewhere. For some reason, I still retain hope that I can make some sort of difference in our workplace. And yes, I’m trying to find another job, but in this area of the rust belt it’s tough.

    1. TCO*

      You need to paid OT for any time you work about 40 hours in ONE week. This is based on your workweek, not your pay cycles. So if you work 42 hours in the first week, you need to get paid for 2 hours of OT that week. You can’t make up for it by taking off extra time the following week.

      (Comp time in lieu of OT is only legal for government workers in the US. All other employers need to provide 1.5 pay, no other options.)

    2. Oryx*

      Yeah, they aren’t paying you correctly.

      Like TCO said, OT is determined by week, not by cycle. So if you worked 42 hours in a single week, they have to pay you 2 hours of OT or they can adjust your schedule and let you go 2 hours early one day but it HAS to be within that same pay week. If you don’t work for the government, comp time isn’t legal.

      They can’t combine everything into 80 hours of a pay cycle and start adjusting numbers.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Your company can adjust the week to officially end on Wednesday, which might mean that if your overtime normally comes on Friday, you have Monday and Tuesday to adjust for it.

    3. Editor*

      The Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry has a section called Labor Law Compliance with a list of General Wage and Hour Questions that says all hours over 40 are overtime hours and comp time is not legal. Unfortunately, it doesn’t get into the nuances of comp time, but you could start with a link to the page or a printout.

      Also, some law firms offer guidance on their websites. Link to follow due to moderation.

      1. Editor*

        Pennsylvania Wage and Overtime Law
        Maduff Maduff, LLC — http://www.madufflaw.com/Pennsylvania.html

        The usefulness of this page is that it talks about penalties to employers and how many years back the overtime claims can go. That might be eye-opening when handed over to an employer. The page also has a paragraph on retaliation, which might inhibit a supervisor or business owner who is upset about being corrected.

        Use Alison’s approach about presenting the information by saying you are concerned about the company not being in compliance in a matter-of-fact way rather than being confrontational.

  55. NoLawNoMo*

    As part of a career change I’ve been applying to non-tech (account manager/BD roles mostly) positions in startups. I’ve only ever worked in law, which means there was always zero guesswork re: dressing for interviews. However, after reading the relevant AAM thread I’m now terrified that I’ll go to interviews in a suit and automatically make a bad impression because I will be assumed to be a bad cultural fit for dressing so formally. Does anyone have any experience with startups in London and any ideas what would be appropriate to wear to an interview? Also, is it ever ok to just ask what level of formality is expected?

    1. Jules the First*

      It really depends whether you’re a man or a woman and who the target client of your startup is.

      If you are a man, you can get away with a suit if it’s a really, really good suit. Skip the tie and pair it with a shirt in an unusual colour and awesome socks. The look you’re going for is successful but independent minded (no sheepie banker vibes!). If you don’t have a suitably awesome suit, you can rock a sports jacket, but go a little more conventional with what you wear underneath it. A good suit in an unusual colour or fabric will also work.

      If you’re a woman, things get a lot more challenging – I’ve done pricey dark-wash jeans with a shell, funky blazer and towering heels; I’ve done wrap dress with flats and a scarf; I’ve done a skirt suit and kitten heels with funky accessories and a wild bag…

      Have a look at the startup’s website and see what people are wearing in their portraits; check media for photos of the leadership at business events and tailor your wardroe accordingly.

      Also think about who you want to be in the startup – are you the conservative safe pair of hands being brought on to help steady things or develop risk systems? The walking little black book who knows everyone and is raising funds or profile? One of the tech team?

      1. NoLawNoMo*

        Wow, thanks! Looking at photos is an awesome idea that I never would’ve come up with myself. I’m a woman so things are a lot more challenging, but I see what you’re getting at with your suggestions. I’ll go into my wardrobe and see what I come out with. Really appreciate the comment!

    2. TootsNYC*

      I don’t think a suit will be that big a deal-breaker. It’s been the default for so long.

      If you get there and realize the suit is too formal, get out a scarf and tie it around your neck, or something.

    3. catsAreCool*

      I don’t know about London, but in the US, there are companies where people usually dress casually, but they expect interviewers to show up in business formal.

  56. Marie*

    I think I might have gotten accepted to grad school and I literally don’t know what to do with myself right now. I was initially rejected but the admissions director contacted me yesterday and said there was an error and I should be receiving an updated decision soon…

    1. Laura*

      I work in admissions. You’re entitled to know what the error was– that’s a pretty huge mistake on their part. Make sure you get all the information before making your decision. You may have been conditionally accepted.

      1. Marie*

        The updated decision came back and I was accepted!! I was super disappointed when I was rejected because I was looking forward to changing fields (still am), but now that I’ve been accepted I feel validated/excited but I’m still discontented. If I was accepted when I was supposed to be accepted (which was over a month ago), I would have gotten my financial aid together, I would have been applying for scholarships, and I would have probably enrolled in summer school to get a jump start on my prereq’s. I also would have had a plan on when I’d be able to leave my job. Now all the timing is all messed up. I’m supposed to start in the Fall but I don’t think that’s feasible. When I was rejected I had to move on mentally and emotionally. Now, while I’m excited to finally be accepted to a Master’s program, I’m a little bit out of sorts about everything. I definitely need to figure out what went wrong….

  57. CMT*

    I have a reference question: I’ve been at my current job for two years and in that time, my original supervisor got promoted (about 8 months ago) and I now have a new supervisor. As I start looking for new jobs, can I use both of them as references, or would it look weird to have two people from the same job in a relatively short period? I also have an internship supervisor from grad school, but that was only a 3 month period 2 years ago, so I definitely want to have two other professional references from a “real” job. Thoughts?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I think you could probably put Old Boss (with dates)? if appropriate? And also New Supervisor (date – present)?

      Often when job searching, one doesn’t put one’s current supervisor/references from current employer anyway.

      (I think there is a post/discussion here somewhere with what to do if you have no past references yet.)

      1. CMT*

        Both people know I’m looking and are very supportive (really, truly), so I don’t have any concerns using my current supervisor. I should have mentioned that!

    2. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I always put down my current manager, if they ask. Not really as a reference, but sometimes they ask who your supervisor is. I would never put down my current or former supervisor at my current company. Not sure if that’s what you mean or not? I’ve been in this role 3 years now and I’m on my fifth manager. I’m not listing all of them, that’s just crazy.

      1. CMT*

        Most places ask for 3 references, so my question is more would it look weird if 2 of the 3 were from the same job, in a relatively short timespan (2 years)? They do happen to both be from my current job, but they’re well aware of my job search and very supportive, so that part is not a problem for me.

        1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          In that case I don’t think it would be weird. Both of my former manager references are from the same company though one works somewhere else now. I was there for 10 years, so it’s hard to come up with others.

  58. SophieChotek*

    Personal/Professioanl Bios — On Company Website, etc. – How do you feel about them?

    I know many companies do have headshots of leading people in the company, possibly with short professional profile of CEO or founder, etc. if appropriate. So maybe I’m just out of touch here.

    My boss has just decided that in the next newsletter (that goes out to customers, not internal company-wide) that he wants to feature one person in the company per newsletter, with headshot, brief bio, etc. He thinks it would add a personal touch. (I have read some similar things about this on Social media/blogs, etc. maintained by companies, etc.)

    However, I am a fairly private person (though you might not think that based on my posts here) and honestly, I would really rather not. (I don’t even put my photo on Facebook, all my personal information is not-visible to anyone including friends on Facebook, etc.) I do use my real name on Facebook, which I am starting to regret, based on things other people have said about anonymity on Facebook. (That said, I did agree to be interviewed for a blog on a subject matter I had some expertise on and that wasn’t anonymous.)

    Is this worth pushing back on? Would you?
    Or should I just grit my teeth and hope half the people don’t even open the email?
    Or am I just out of touch with norms here and my dislike of the idea?

    1. CMT*

      I think pushing back would seem a little strange. Your boss probably isn’t asking for a detailed biography here. I think you could get by with a few vague sentences. Or ask to be skipped. But I don’t think the concept is weird at all, and you’re right — most people probably won’t even read it.

    2. Laura*

      I would definitely push back, because I value my privacy just as highly as you do. When I came on board to my current role, I was instructed to meet with the photographer. Well, the photos were awful and I pointed out to the woman who set up the meeting that I wasn’t comfortable having my images on the website, and didn’t see why they’d be put on there since my work partner and boss aren’t. Turns out it was a scheduling mistake– there was no need to have the photos taken at all.

      Just say you have some privacy issues related to your identity, or something. I’m sure you’d have to sign a release anyway, and you have every right to not sign that, AFAIK.

      I would LOVE for Alison to do a post on privacy related to workplace issues like this!

    3. Owl*

      I agree that it’s not desirable. I’ve had to do it for work, but I saw it as necessary because my job is 50% outreach into the community, so I’d like the people getting the newsletter to know my face. My bio was very cursory — worked at BigName OldJob, love my NowJob, and was asked to add a hobby, so I added a pretty common/tame one — birdwatching, which I already do. Basically, anything that was already common knowledge on my LinkedIn, Facebook, etc.

    4. LL*

      I don’t have an answer, but our staff page just makes me completely miserable. We had a professional photographer come this year and once again I was so uncomfortable during the photo session that it looks terrible (and not a lot like me). I’m also not working in my desired field so writing the full paragraph bio is painful. That’s on top of thinking of all the creeps I have had bad experiences with who can look me up (e.g., ex husband). Management says it is one of the most popular (by views) pages on our website. Only one person got out of appearing on it … I’d be happy if i could just be there without a photo.

      I would try to find out more about it but I have a feeling you’re also in the grit your teeth and do it boat :-( Hope someone else has some more insight.

    5. SophieChotek*

      Thanks for all your thoughts so far.
      I am glad I am not alone in this idea of my dislike of it.
      I have a pretty good relationship with my boss…I might push back if I can…

    6. Lindsay J*

      I would push back on this. What if someone had serious privacy issues – stalker, abusive ex, etc – where it would be a threat to their safety to have their face sent out to all the customers?

      I feel like something like this should be opt-in only.

  59. Gene*

    Related to my note above, are some people just unable to follow instructions? One applicant in particular may have been well qualified and a good hire, but every question on the Supplemental Questionnaire was answered, “See attached resume.” Our instructions on the questionnaire state to answer the questions and not refer to any other document. How can one get 6 degrees and not be able to follow simple directions?

    1. Ell like L*

      Yes, some people just don’t bother to follow directions.

      On the other hand though, do you /have/ to use the questionnaire? When I was job-searching things like those almost always just asked me to regurgitate info from my resume in a different format. That’s annoying and feels like I’m putting a lot of time in for a job that hasn’t expressed interest in me yet and I may spend a lot of time on for nothing.

      1. Gene*

        It’s Civil Service, so yes.

        And a normal resume wouldn’t go into the detail we asked for in the questions. We are looking for very specific experience. A typical example:

        Describe what knowledge, skills, and/or experience you have in developing a chocolate teapot production QA/QC program. Include which employer where you got the experience, as well as your title, level of responsibility and length of experience.

        1. Ell like L*

          Then seems like you’re screening out folks who aren’t that concerned with instructions. Win for you.

          I know it’s not something you can help because civil service, but… that seems like it should be an interview question rather than an application question. Silly.

          1. Gene*

            Since it’s Civil Service, all non-exempt hiring basically goes like this:

            Entry level, low-skills position – Civil Service Test, OR Higher-skill – Supplemental Questionnaire
            The top tier of those who pass the above move to an Oral Panel
            Those who pass the Oral Panel are ranked
            The ranked list goes to Civil Service Board for certification
            The hiring manager gets a list of the top 3 on the certified list
            Hiring manager does hiring interviews

        2. CMT*

          I bet this person hasn’t applied to many government jobs before, because those kinds of questions are so standard! This person probably wasn’t that interested in the job, or they would have followed instructions.

  60. Hate being a supervisor!*

    How do you handle someone’s inappropriate, unprofessional attitude at work. I know we’re not supposed to be able to manage attitude and we’re supposed to manage the behavior, because it’s the part that’s observable, so should I write someone up for giving me the cold shoulder and barely speaking to me, when I can hear them laughing and cutting up with the other employees. We usually have a decent relationship unless I have to write them up for something, or even just talk to them about something…something not so serious as a write up. Then they revert to acting like a teenager with their parents, just short of slamming their bedroom door. It causes a lot of tension in the office and it really makes me dread having to interact with this person throughout the day because I get a snooty or snarky attitude. I’ve been told to ignore it by my boss and just be as professional as possible but that’s not cutting it anymore. I don’t expect this person to be my best friend when they’re mad at me but I do expect them to act professional. Is it too much to expect them to act pleasant as well?? I certainly don’t act this way if my boss has to say anything to me. I’m a grown up. I evaluate the criticism, change what needs to be changed and go on. I certainly don’t act like a petulant teenager who can’t go to the mall with her friends! Should I write up the unprofessional behavior (attitude…without calling it that) or just let it go?

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t know that I would write someone up over this, but I’d definitely sit the person down and tell him that part of this job is being able to accept feedback, whether it’s good or bad, and that you need to see an immediate improvement.

    2. fposte*

      It depends what they’re doing. They don’t have to laugh and chat with you after they’ve been written up, even if they’re doing it with other people. They do have to be civil and be communicative when it’s required and remain pleasant in expression.

      So are they failing to respond when asked questions? Turning away with crossed arms when you talk? What specific behaviors (yup, that’s still what we’re talking about) are a problem here, how long do they last, and what do you want to see instead? You can absolutely coach on response to feedback–Alison has at least one and maybe more posts on that–you just need to be specific and clear. (But also make sure that you’re not just reading a day of embarrassed avoidance as hostile–a specific behavior with you, not just a contrast of behavior with colleagues, is what you need to identify.)

      1. Hate being a supervisor!*

        The “day of avoidance” lasts a week or more..no joke…. every time I have to say something to them. It’s more the silent treatment unless spoken to. And maybe hearing the normalcy down the hall, makes the silent treatment even louder. I agree with you that they don’t have to best friends, but I do feel the hostility toward me specifically… (it has also been directed at other people when they’re mad at them) I think I’m just having a hard time verbalizing what I expect in this area. I know how I act when critiqued and I expect the same. This individual takes everything as a personal attack and turns it around to make you feel defensive for trying to do your job. This isn’t the first time. I’m just getting tired of it. Thank you for your feedback.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Silent treatment. I have no patience for that behavior. I had a coworker do this to me. It reminded me of stuff my family did.

          Anyway, here is what I would do. State that you notice there are times that she only speaks when you initiate a conversation. Let her know that you have observed this behavior for a period of consecutive days and sometimes longer than a week. Tell that two way communication is expected on daily basis. Give reasons, you need her to update you on her work, she needs to receive updates from you, etc. Therefore it is an essential part of the job that she be able to initiate a conversation with you at all times. If she is not able to this then she is failing to fill one of the basic requirements of the job. Her failure to communicate with you on a daily basis will lead to [fill in with appropriate action from you]. You expect to see no further instances of failure to speak with you.

          Okay. Let me take my gloves off here. This is BS and it’s bullying. Do not tolerate it. Explain to her that any job anywhere will absolutely require her to take constructive criticism in a professional manner. Tell her she will not make it in the work world if she cannot learn to handle issues that come up. If you feel the need suggest EAP or other counseling.

          I am sure she has standard one-liners she is using on you when you try to discuss things with her.
          If you want, throw a couple at me and I will type some replies for you to consider using. I will check for you tomorrow.

    3. The Butcher of Luverne*

      Lots of times Alison will say that employees need to be told “You need to be professional, civil and responsive to your coworkers at all times. Can you do that?”

  61. Ad Astra*

    Does your company do “summer hours”? Mine just introduced something similar, but it’s only every other week and every employee is supposed to pair up with someone of the same function so they can alternate weeks. They also have to work a full 40 hours that week, and something like 30 or 35 of them have to be billable.

    Not surprisingly, some employees are jazzed about the new policy. Those who don’t have anyone in the office who shares their function, and those who typically bill less than 30-35 hours a week, are… not thrilled. Oh well.

    1. Tris Prior*

      Ha, I was coming here to post basically the same question: Ours does, and there are lots of rules. We don’t formally pair up with someone, but there are rotating schedules as to who gets what alternate Friday off. And we have to work extra hours every non-Friday to earn the days off. (If we take a sick day, then we forfeit the Friday.)

      I preferred how a previous company did it: in the absence of any pressing deadline, just leave at 2 every Friday, no need to make up the hours elsewhere.

      Meh. I’m fortunate that my job rarely requires OT, I’m pretty much useless after an 8-hour shift, and I’m not that eager to work longer days so I can get alternate Fridays off. But, one of the rules is that everyone in a department has to agree unanimously whether to observe them or not, and everyone else wants them, so.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Yeah, as much as I’m feeling left out because I won’t get to use this perk, I’m glad I’ll get to keep my weekday evenings intact.

    2. Triangle Pose*

      Yes – one of my favorite things about my new job! We have summer Fridays – you can choose 8 of the 13 Fridays in the summer and leave at noon. You just have to be full time and not have document performance issues. It’s great because there are a lot of holiday weekends in the summer where the office closes at 2pm anyway, so it’s almost all summer!

  62. mazzy*

    Does anyone have coworkers with MBAs for jobs where they aren’t required? I’m wondering if MBA programs inflate the importance of degrees in the work world. One of the MBAs has a definite sense of entitlement and thinks they should be higher up than they are without any good reason – not effort or skill. It’s confusing. I never thought I should get a promotion or being able to leave early or get a bonus or do personal stuff during the day just because. There had to be a reason, and you didn’t take advantage of all benefits at once. I’m wondering if maybe MBA programs make it sound like the degree will automatically put you above other workers and somehow exempt you from nitty gritty work in the work world?

    1. Ad Astra*

      Yes, I think MBA programs inflate the importance of degrees in the work world. The people I know personally who have MBAs are nice people who don’t have a strong sense of entitlement because that’s just not who they are; but I do think they see their MBAs as a more powerful credential than they really are.

      There are industries where credentials mean everything, but you’d probably know if you worked in one of those industries.

    2. Laura*

      Definitely. My work partner just completed her MBA. She has no management experience and went straight into the program after her undergrad because “it looks good.” Now she’s having a hard time applying to jobs because she is now overqualified academically, but underqualified experience-wise. It’s really sad.

      1. BRR*

        Hit submit too soon.

        It’s whether people drink the kool aid. My husband recently finished his PhD in a humanities area and has been applying to some NGO research jobs. He considers his dissertation research as work experience and has been applying to positions that are a little out of reach for his qualifications. He doesn’t understand that the research he has done has not been for other people/assigned by other people which is the experience the people who get these jobs have.

        1. Tau*

          I remember when I was job-searching post-submission, a lot of people around the department were shocked that I was applying for graduate scheme, entry-level jobs. “But you have a PhD!” Well, yeah, but that’s not work experience and my PhD isn’t relevant to any non-academic job. My work experience put me solidly in new grad territory, as much as it dented my pride to apply for the same jobs I could have applied to straight out of undergrad. But it would have dented my pride more to get rejected from jobs I wasn’t experienced enough for, or to end up in a job beyond my skills. The worst thing I could have done is listen to those people.

          You *can* make an irrelevant advanced degree work to your benefit, but that’s not about the sort of jobs you apply for, it’s figuring out how to transfer the skills to make you a better and more successful candidate. So I ended up applying for the same jobs I might have out of undergrad… but I’m not sure I’d have *got* the job I have now straight out of undergrad, and I am pretty sure undergrad!me wouldn’t be getting the glowing performance reviews I am now. Independent work, perseverance, technical writing, logical thinking and problem solving, abstraction – a lot of the skills I honed in the PhD are really beneficial in my job. But that translates to a faster trip up the career ladder (I hope so, at least!) not getting to jump rungs at the start – and it’s about proving my ability at the job I have, not about the fact that I can call myself “Dr” and most of my coworkers can’t.

          (Disclaimer: results may vary depending on your PhD and your chosen career path. I went pure maths -> software development, which has a pretty big skill overlap.)

          1. Overeducated*

            I do think someone with a PhD isn’t going to have much luck competing for the very same entry level jobs as new college grads (in many fields anyway). The sweet spot for me was jobs that required a master’s, where I could play up my part time work as experience and present the most relevant aspects of my research as a bonus.

            1. Tau*

              Yeah, this may vary a lot depending on field. In my case, all the non-entry-level jobs in the field I was going for required experience I genuinely didn’t have, and my research is completely irrelevant to anything outside academia (as well as being absolutely incomprehensible) so I couldn’t use that as a selling point. It’d probably have been different if I’d done any programming for my PhD, or if I was going for a teaching-type position where I could have leveraged my tutoring experience.

              I did get the impression a lot of jobs I applied to were nonplussed by the PhD and viewed it as more of a potential detriment, but not all of them. There’s employers out there who will see some value in it, or at least are willing to be convinced.

    4. So Very Anonymous*

      I used to have a colleague who definitely inflated the value of her MBA. She openly looked down on and spoke negatively of other (perfectly qualified) people in her area who didn’t have one. She also spoke of the MBA constantly as being the equivalent of a PhD and wanted to be degree-snob pals with me (I have a PhD). I stayed as far away from her as I could because I did NOT want to be associated with that level of arrogance and entitlement. Some of that was just her personality, but she definitely channeled it through I Have An MBA.

      1. Ad Astra*

        How could you think an MBA is equal to anything other than a master’s degree?

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          I wondered the same thing! I think she viewed it as a terminal degree? Which was pretty funny to me given that my dad has a PhD in a business-based discipline and taught MBA students in his university’s business school for decades. — I didn’t tell her that, though, because I really just didn’t want to engage her on the degree thing at all.

      2. periwinkle*

        That reminds me of one of my favorite TV commercials from FedEx…
        https://youtu.be/NcoDV0dhWPA

        My boss has an MBA. My mentor has one. If I threw a paper ball in any random direction from my cubicle I would probably hit someone with an MBA. The company pays graduate tuition (and undergrad) so anyone who wants to earn one has that opportunity. Around here an MBA is NBD, it just means you’ve advanced your knowledge to be more competitive (but definitely not superior).

        1. the gold digger*

          There was a woman I worked with whose email auto-signature included “MBA,” that is, she was Shavon Smith, MBA.

          It wasn’t even from a top-20 school.

          I wanted to email her back and say, “You know MBAs are a dime a dozen, right? Even I have one! Only mine is from a good school.”

          I know. Bitchy. But fun to contemplate.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Some of it’s the marketing of the MBA. Nobody would spend the money on the programs if they didn’t think it would lead to more money down the road. And it does, eventually. But first there must be some experience to go with that degree. Schools aren’t great on explaining that.
      But some of it is that the MBA programs also attract self important blow-hards. These people will be entitlement minded blow-hards in any situation, but the MBA gives them extra wind to blow with.
      The reality is that most MBA holders are nice sensible people. But this isn’t widely known as these types are quietly doing their work and the work of the blow-hards.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think it speaks of the person not the degree. I know people with masters that are unbearable. I knew one person with a doctorate who could not fix himself a bowl of cereal and milk. He did not know how. It had nothing to do with the doctorate and everything to do with the person. Sadly, he sincerely believed everyone else would fix the cereal and milk for him. (yes, real life example. Actual cereal. Actual person.)

      I will say, I think that it requires some belief in one’s self to go after a higher degree. So perhaps this is a chicken and egg question. Did his belief that he is better than others drive him to get his degree as proof? Or did his degree encourage him that he was better than others? Maybe a mix of both? Just my personal opinion that some people have an inflated sense of self worth period.

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Definitely agree that some people just have an inflated sense of self-worth. I got a PhD out of interest in the field and desire to teach in it (whoops! hello, terrible job market!) rather than some need to prove that I was better than other people. Well, OK, I did also want to prove to a specific jerk boyfriend that I could get into grad school when he couldn’t. But other than him, it wasn’t really about thinking I was superior to anyone else. But I definitely have met a lot of arrogant people with PhDs along the way. (That boyfriend got a JD, which I’m sure has given him plenty of opportunities to be a jerk to other people.)

        1. Chaordic One*

          I used to work at a company where several our clients were lawyers. The work didn’t involve anything legal and their being lawyers was just sort of incidental. Anyway, I was scolded because I did not include “Esquire” on envelopes and on the mailing labels for packages of documents I had to send to them. They complained about it.

  63. special snowflake*

    Do you notice if someone’s clothes are too big at work? I’ve lost quite a bit of weight in the last year an but I’m still losing and have a ways to go so I’ve been trying to make my current wardrobe last as long as possible. I wore a brand new dress earlier this week followed by a dress I bought before I started losing weight and thought I looked horrible.
    Would you notice (and judge) someone for not replacing their too big things right away? I’m worried it looks bad and I’m not realizing it because I don’t spend all day looking at myself.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I think it depends on the office culture and how casual the office is.

      I can certainly understand not wanting to invest in clothes before you’ve reached your goal weight, though.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I wouldn’t judge. Not everyone can, or wants to, go out a buy a new wardrobe all at once.

      I went through this (I had gastric bypass) and I waited until it was really, really obvious that I needed new clothes. The weight came off really fast and I didn’t want to keep buying clothes. What I did was to buy just an item or two at a time and mix them in. Like a new top with an older, bigger skirt that I pinned. I think this works when you buy separates. But, yeah, at some point it just gets to be ridiculous-looking. That’s when you need to buy some new stuff.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I’ll be honest, the only time I ever notice coworkers’ clothing is when I think it’s cute or if I recognize it. And if I recognize it, it’s only to feel better about how I always were the same 4 tops over and over.

    4. Anne*

      Maybe wear the biggest clothes on days with no meetings where you will just be at your desk most of the day.

    6. blackcat*

      Can you strategically safety pin some things to bring them in a bit tighter? Or use a basting stitch? I don’t know if you (or a friend) is handy with a needle and thread, but there are temporary ways to bring in waistlines of pants & shirts that look ok. Basically, follow the existing seams and try to tighten them all up by the same amount.

      1. Redrum*

        When I was losing weight I would buy a few things at consignment stores or Goodwill just to get me by because I didn’t want to invest money in clothes I wouldn’t be wearing very long. I got hooked on consignment shopping!

    7. First Initial dot Last Name*

      Consider having some of your favorite items altered to fit. Making something smaller is pretty standard tailoring that can be done by a dry cleaner, if they have a seamstress, if they don’t look for someone to do alterations. Skirts, blouses, and dresses may be simple fixes, pants might be slightly more complicated depending on their fit.

      1. Ife*

        I am a big fan of altering clothes and I actually took a class to learn how to do it myself! But I would only pay to have it done it for items that I really loved, because it’s almost as expensive as buying new. I looked into it, and where I live it’s in the $10-20 range just to have a pair of pants hemmed. Hemming is easy, so I can imagine that taking something in would cost at least as much.

    8. special snowflake*

      Thanks everyone!
      I hadn’t thought about tailoring things so I will definitely look into that. It’s also reassuring that others might not notice!

    10. Rebecca in Dallas*

      It depends on how big it is. I had to talk to a direct report once because she was losing weight (hooray for her!) but it was making her pants sag so much that she was almost breaking dress code. (We were in a customer-facing role.) So she got some inexpensive pants in her new size to hold her over, I think there were a couple of pairs that she could add a belt to to keep them from slipping too far down.

      For dresses, getting them taken in shouldn’t be very expensive. Or you can even hit up a resale/thrift store for a few basic pieces to wear in the meantime. And start selling some of your old clothes, too!

      Congrats on the weight loss!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I went from a 24 down to an 8 and it took 20 years. The last leg of the journey was size 16 down to 8. I ended up buying a few new things for every other size that I lost. So I would pick out 4-5 things I thought looked the worst and replace those with the new items. I think as long as you seem to be doing a little bit now and again, no one really notices. They will notice your changes in your face much quicker than loose clothes.

      I put some stuff in a consignment shop and some stuff I re-purposed. Tee shirts became sleep shirts. Old jeans were used for painting. At one point a family member had a bag of clothes that she passed around. The idea was you put in what you did not need and took out what you wanted. The bag could come back to you and have totally different things in it several months later.
      The only thing I would have changed in this whole mix is I would have bought more clothes from the consignment shops instead of holding out for new stuff. It would have made it a bit easier if I could see my own success more frequently.

  64. DTK*

    Hi all! Question about salary negotiations and promotions.

    I was recently offered a promotion that was a big step up from where I was- I bypassed two or three other levels to get to management after only being with this particular company less than a year.

    I’m very excited about the new job and love my company, however, the raise that came with this new job is significantly less than I was expecting. I know that our company pays below the industry average for many positions, but I’m only making an extra $5k a year now for a much more senior position. I’m wondering if this is normal, or something I shoudl try to negotiate more for? It doesn’t all kick in until the fall after my probationary period, so I’m wondering if I can make a better case for more money then when I’ve proven myself a bit more.

    There’s only one other person at this company with this same job title and he’s been here for years and worked his way up from other positions, so I don’t know how much he makes and know that it should reasonably be more than me anyway. I’m just not sure how to make sure I’m getting a fair salary without seeming out of touch given how great of an opportunity they’re giving me and how little I’m really bringing to them in terms of experience.

    1. BRR*

      Some companies pay internal promotions far less than market rate. They look at it in terms of “you’re making X% more” ignoring that the new salary might be $20K less than if they hired an outside person and the internal person might be mad that they’re underpaid. Do some research to figure out what the industry average is for your postiion and place yourself towards the bottom.

  65. Ruth*

    I have a final round interview for a position I’m excited about on Monday! I’m trying to prepare in advance for topics I will want to discuss if I get an offer. One thing that is concerning me is that I have two trips planned for the next few months. I’ve read the post about asking for time off between getting an offer and accepting a position, but I’m worried about coming across as entitled or flaky by asking for two separate times off.

    The first trip I have planned is to Scotland. My partner will be presenting at a conference there, and my plan was to come along. We haven’t bought tickets yet, but I am very excited about the trip and have wanted to visit the UK since I was about 8. That trip will be about a week in late July.

    I am also planning on being a bridesmaid in my best friend’s wedding in September. I’ve already committed to my role in the wedding, and attending is non-negotiable. However, the field that I am in requires me to work weekends, and being at the wedding would naturally require me to miss one.

    I wouldn’t be concerned about asking for either one individually, but does anyone have advice about asking for both without coming across poorly? I could give up on the Scotland trip if absolutely necessary, but I’ve been so excited about it ever since my partner’s research was accepted and would be a little heartbroken to have to stay behind.

    1. PackersFan*

      I don’t think you’re going to come across as entitled or flaky. I think it shows that you have a life outside of work and that’s an OK thing. If you’re comfortable explaining what the visits are for and even that they’ve been planned for a long time a reasonable hiring manager isn’t going to have an issue.

  66. The Other Dawn*

    Thanks to everyone for your feedback regarding how to word our feedback on the leadership training program at my company. Here’s the original discussion, if interested: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/05/open-thread-may-6-7-2016.html#comment-1073326

    We had our meeting with the head of training yesterday. It was somewhat productive, but somewhat disappointing. What we thought was a comprehensive program geared towards succession planning specific to our company, which is how it was originally implied, turned out to be a three-year leadership skills program. That was pretty disappointing. It’s not a bad thing, but it’s pretty redundant for the seasoned managers who have been around a long time. Not that we won’t be able to take something away from it, but it’s pretty remedial for a lot of us. We came away with a better understanding of why there was a such a diverse mix of people (some had no direct reports, some were new managers and others have been leaders for many years). I stated that it seemed that the first year of the program could maybe be condensed into one longer session spanning a couple days, and they could send the new managers, or those without direct reports, to that. We made some other suggestions about possibly adding panel discussions with the executives, sending out higher level articles in between sessions that pertain to the industry (right now it’s just leadership articles or a rehash of the previous session), and possibly adding another session or two during the year to make it more intensive.

    I’m hoping that they take some of our suggestions, because I’m not sure I can handle three years of plain old leadership training.

  67. Bridge and Tunnel*

    I started a new job 5 months ago in NYC. I moved out to the mid-atlantic for a job in central New Jersey 2 years ago and didn’t think about the long term. There are few jobs in my field where I live and it was time for me to move onwards and upwards so I looked in NYC as a large number of people in my area work in the city so I thought I could do it too.

    Well I hate it. I work from home part time but the two or three day a week I have to go up to the city are life draining. It’s about 2 hours each way. I hate having to get up so early and getting home so late. I hate how competitive I have to be to get a seat and to get to my car in the evening so that I don’t get stuck in the parking lot. I hate having to be stuck around so many people.

    Now finally to the question part. Any advice on how to make this better? I can’t work from home any more than I already do. I can’t look for a job yet because I need a longer tenure on my resume plus there aren’t many in my area. I already have a great set of headphones. I’m set on entertainment. I utilize music, podcasts, audio books, ebooks from the library, or videos. I can’t work on the train to shorten the time I spend in the office. Thank you all for your help!

    2. 39281*

      Maybe not what you want to hear, but the only think that made living in NYC bearable for me was moving closer to work – I went from a hour commute to half and hour and it’s changed everything. Worth the increase in rent, for me.

      1. Bridge and Tunnel*

        That’s what I would love to do but unfortunately my spouse is also in a niche industry and has a job really close to where we live. If we moved it would either transfer the awful commute or give both of us hard commutes. When you add in that rent is cheaper here plus some other things, there’s not enough there to support a move closer to the city. Thank you for replying. I appreciate the help.

        1. nonegiven*

          What if you compress your in office days so they are consecutive and rent a bedroom from someone and spend a night or two in the city every week?

    3. Nancypie*

      I wonder if you could split the rent on a studio somewhere like Sexaucus Xchange with someone in a similar position, using it on opposing days? And go home on weekends? I guess that would be too expensive…

    4. Another commuter*

      I am a little late on this week’s thread so I hope you see this. I am also a relatively new commuter from NJ to NYC. Nothing really shortens the time. It sucks. Have you looked into if there is a coach type bus that goes from your town or an adjacent one?

      When I first started working in Midtown I was taking the train from NJ. One day I decided to try the bus after I heard about a few people taking it. Although it didn’t shorten the trip, the fact that there were fewer people made it calmer, the parking was cheaper and more easily accessible and safer (there was a weird setup at the train station). Most people, honestly, slept. It was much quieter than the train.

      Also, in my case, I was the fifth stop on the train but the first stop on the bus. Although the time is the same, knowing I am getting off at the first stop was so nice. Even though we are the last stop to be picked up in the morning, most of the time there are enough seats for everyone and the busses come every half hour.

      It’s not a perfect solution but may be slightly more tolerable. I would say you might want to try it for a few days, if there is something similar. I don’t know where you are, I use Lakeland bus lines if there is a stop near you but I know there are other companies and setups. Good luck!

    1. fposte*

      This confused the heck out of me until I realized it was a response to an earlier question :-).

  69. IANAL (I argue nightly about llamas)*

    Hey all! I’m looking into finding a job in the nonprofit side of things, but I’m not 200% sure that I will actually make that move. However, I’m also planning to go to law school part-time (probably 1-2 classes a semester) within the next 18 months or so (depending on whether or not a couple schools will ever give me an answer on my application…grr!). I plan to go into disability and civil rights law, so it’s related to certain nonprofits and their missions. I also plan to work full-time or almost full-time while I’m in school, so it won’t affect my work too much.

    Basically, do I bring this up at interviews, since I don’t have a definite date on when I’m going to school yet? And, if so, when/how do I bring it up?

    1. Lillian McGee*

      I wouldn’t, unless you are applying for a part-time position. If it’s FT, they will be afraid that you won’t be able to handle work and school simultaneously but if PT, they might be relieved that you’ll have something else to do and won’t be looking for a FT position.

      1. Lillian McGee*

        For context, I am the office manager at a nonprofit law firm. We probably would not hire someone we knew was planning to go back to school at some nebulous point in the future. However, if you started school while working here and it didn’t interfere with your work, then there would be no problem!

    2. Laura*

      Don’t bring it up until you’ve paid your enrollment deposit and are FOR SURE going to law school.

  70. twbb*

    Are social workers at a NPO considered professionals under the overtime exemption law? I’m negotiating pay right now at $35-40K salaried for a job that’ll definitely have overtime and am wondering if it’ll be a moot point come December.

      1. fposte*

        They count as “learned professionals,” but under the section that still requires the salary meet the threshold. Teachers, doctors, and lawyers do not have to have their salary meet the threshold to be exempt.

        1. MMSW*

          Have been wondering the same thing. Am feeling very frustrated with clinical social work at the moment partially because of pay like that. If you require a MSW and license you need to be paying way over $40k. Good luck. Any advice on how to negotiate pay based on upcoming changes to overtime?

        2. twbb*

          So, the salary will have to be bumped to $47k in December? Then any overtime will not be paid because it’s still an exempt position? Thanks for helping me wrap my head around this!

          1. fposte*

            Not quite :-). They *can* bump salaries to $47k if they want to keep exempt status for these jobs–but they can also keep the pay at $40k and treat the position as non-exempt, either by refusing to allow overtime or by assuming a certain percentage of OT and factoring that into the $40k.

        3. Lady Kelvin*

          What about postdoc? Most postdoc positions pay less than the threshold but expect you to work way more than 40 hours a week. Or are PhDs considered learned professionals? Or are they different because they are paid by grants and fellowships?

          1. fposte*

            My university’s still figuring that one out. I think the short answer is that it looks like it would apply to non-teaching post-docs, but that universities are trying like hell to find out a way that it wouldn’t.

    3. B-Bam*

      Under the current law, I think some social work positions could be classified as exempt. Under the new law, they’d need to raise you up to the $47k mark to make that classification stick.

      1. fposte*

        Just to be clear, it’s the same law–they’ve just changed the exemption threshold. Nothing else is changing.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve seen this confusion several places, so to clarify: Even if you are considered a “learned professional,” you still need to meet the salary threshold to be exempt (unless you are a doctor, lawyer, or teacher). If you are any other learned professional (or any kind of worker), you are non-exempt unless you’re making $47,476 or more (as of December 1).

  71. NK*

    Curious from people who have experience with this – how important is it really to have great references? My husband is at a struggling start-up that is in all likelihood either going to get sold or close by the end of the year. We have a baby on the way so he is aggressively job hunting. Yesterday, his boss made a comment to him that if he “bails”, he can “kiss any reference goodbye”. Honestly, my husband’s role is not critical to the business (one more reason he really needs to be looking), and boss just doesn’t want to have to take on his tasks if he leaves. It’s an insanely selfish position he’s taking.

    It’s upsetting that he’s now going to leave this job without a reference, especially how much you read on here about how important they are. And his prior boss (at a big corporation) had mentioned several times (both in the context of my husband and other employees) that he can only verify employment and will give no other reference info per company policy, even though he really liked my husband. So he now has no good references from his current and most recent former employer. Is this a terrible thing that will hold him back? Or is it not that big of a deal?

    1. Crylo Ren*

      Your husband’s boss sounds like a jerk.

      Does your husband have no other colleagues from this job or other employers that could provide references? Not all employers ask only for supervisor references (in fact, in my experience I’ve been specifically asked to provide both supervisor and peer references).

      1. NK*

        He definitely has good references from colleagues and freelancers he worked with, so that is an option if he has the opportunity to provide non-supervisor references. He’s had two prior jobs to the ones I mentioned; unfortunately his boss from the job before the last one happens to be on the board of his current company, and the job before that was his first job out of college, lasted a year, and was eight years ago. That boss will give a good reference but I don’t know how much weight it would carry given how long ago it was and not terribly long in duration. Which also makes me wonder how people handle this who have been at companies for a long time who don’t wish to disclose to anyone there that they’re looking. This issue can’t be all that uncommon!

    2. Laura*

      Screw that boss! What a jerk. Your husband should mention when asked for references “My previous managers can only verify employment due to company policy, not attest to my work. I’d be happy to offer former coworkers who can speak to this, though.” And then provide those coworkers. It’ll be fine.

      1. NK*

        Thanks. The more I think about it, the more I think this situation can’t be all that uncommon for a variety of reasons. And luckily he does have coworkers who can be good references.

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          It also may be likely that your husband’s boss won’t be working there much longer if it’s a startup, and none of my jobs have put in the effort to track down former bosses who have retired or moved on. His experience might be different, but a diligent hiring manager might speak to a former supervisor if they’re immediately available, but I doubt many of them want to do detective work to find them. I know Allison would track them down, but my experience has been with less diligent folks :)

  72. NJ Anon*

    Hi All! Will be interviewing for a position that I would love to have. I want my enthusiasm to come through but is there a danger of over doing it?

    1. Ell like L*

      Totally. Be genuine, but don’t try to push the enthusiasm to show or else you risk coming across oddly.
      I’ve interviewed people who were SO over the top thankful to interview or seemed SO peppy that I worried about them a little. If you are genuinely enthusiastic, be specific about why that is and it will come through on its own :)

      1. NJ Anon*

        Thanks! I do have reasonsurgery for being enthusiastic but don’t want to come across as a huge flake!

  73. JK*

    Hi Everyone, can I conduct an informal poll? My (massive federal government) office doesn’t have kitchen facilities, and it drives me nuts. So I’m wondering:
    1) In your workplace, do you have access to a refrigerator and microwave?
    2) In your workplace do you have a place to wash dishes other than the bathroom?
    3) What type of environment do you work in? (e.g., office, restaurant, factory, etc)
    4) How big is your workplace?

    1. Not Karen*

      1) yes
      2) yes, kitchen sink and a dishwasher (last job just had a sink)
      3) office
      4) don’t know the square footage, but 140 employees

    2. NylaW*

      1. Yes, both.
      2. No.
      3. Healthcare but non-patient/clinical. Most patient care areas have a full breakroom with kitchenette.
      4. 1500 staff.

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      1) Yes to fridge and microwave, also oven/stove, toaster oven, coffee, keurig
      2) Yes, kitchen sink
      3) Office
      4) ~40 people, but we have three buildings and full kitchens in each

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          This was important the day I had to have 20 baked potatoes ready for a community dinner after work.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      1. yes and yes
      2. we have kitchen area sinks
      3. also a fed govt office
      4. our office has about 200 people, but we share our building with many other offices

    7. Aurion*

      1. Yup
      2. Yup, kitchen sink
      3. Wholesaler, so I have a warehouse and an attached office
      4. No idea about square footage, but we have 18 employees.

    8. The Other Dawn*

      1) In your workplace, do you have access to a refrigerator and microwave? Yes, both. Three microwaves and two fridges. We could use another fridge, though. Or people could stop shoving their giant lunch bags into the fridge when all they have is one item that needs refrigeration.
      2) In your workplace do you have a place to wash dishes other than the bathroom? Yes, the cafeteria.
      3) What type of environment do you work in? (e.g., office, restaurant, factory, etc) Office
      4) How big is your workplace? About 150 employees in this office.

    9. White Mage*

      1) Yes (one fridge, three microwaves)
      2) Yes, two sinks (unfortunately no dishwasher)
      3) Office
      4) Not sure of square footage, but we have 25 employees.

    11. Jennifer*

      1. yes.
      2. no.
      3. office
      4. not that big, but I couldn’t give you square footage space. We have a small “break room” that isn’t really one where you can hang out and eat (doesn’t even have a table any more).

    12. 39281*

      1) yes – we have a small room (maybe a former closet?) with a fridge and small table. There’s also a alcove along the hallway with a sink, microwave, and cabinets (mostly with random mugs, vases and one million large and useless cooking utensils)
      2) yes
      3) office
      4) 12 people

    13. Chris*

      1)Yes- 3 fridges, 3 microwaves
      2)Yes, but just a free standing sink. No space to dry anything.
      3)Retail
      4) 240,000 sq foot/ 400(?) employees

    14. Calliope*

      1) Yes
      2) Yes, kitchen sink
      3) office
      4) About 80 employees in our building (around 400 overall)

    15. Crylo Ren*

      1) Yes, 3 microwaves, 2 refrigerators, and a couple of Keurigs and a separate cappuccino/latte machine on each floor. Soda dispenser in the 1st floor cafeteria.
      2) Yes, the kitchen on my floor has a sink. No dishwashers.
      3) Office
      4) Current building is 5 stories, ~500 employees. Each floor has its own kitchen and we have our own cafeteria on the 1st floor.

    16. Laura*

      1. Yes, they are in a closet
      2. Yes, but it’s not close by (though in the same building)
      3. Office (higher ed)
      4. There are over 200 people who work in this building. There are at least three break rooms in the building

    17. beachlover*

      1. Yes, we have 2 small kitchen areas on every floor with fridge and sink, coffee makers. Also, since we are a beverage co, we have 2 huge cold beverage coolers on every floor with all our beverages avail for employees, Microwaves are avail in the main lunch room.
      2, see #1
      3. Office
      4. not sure of square footage, but it is 6 story building – last I heard we had approx 500 at this location.

      as an extra we also have a small cafe where you can buy breakfast and lunch – and company covers half the cost to keep it pretty affordable – example Chicken wrap with Salad – $4.00

    18. Ad Astra*

      1) Yes, and the fridges are generally stocked with sodas and other soft drinks, plus beer. There’s a designated fridge for lunches. We also have access to a George Foreman grill and I think there’s a toaster.
      2. Yes, and there’s a dishwasher.
      3. Office
      4. About 45 people work here, though we have the space for more than that.

    19. Elsajeni*

      1) Yes, both — there’s one staff lounge for the whole building that has two microwaves and a full-size refrigerator, and most departments have a department copy room or breakroom with a mini-fridge as well.
      2) Yes, there’s a tiny sink in the staff lounge and some of the department breakrooms have their own tiny sinks.
      3) Office, university — my building houses both faculty and staff offices.
      4) My building probably houses about… 250? faculty and staff. This is a vague estimate based on trying to count the number of rooms.

    20. Emilia Bedelia*

      1) Yes. It’s just a mini fridge and microwave in a corner though. There is a cafeteria and coffee/tea area so that sort of takes the place of a kitchen.
      2) sort of. There is a sink in our coffee area but it isn’t really intended for dish washing.
      3) Office with production facility on site
      4) 1500-2000 employees (some are on shifts)

    23. pieces of flair*

      1) Yes, but not provided by the company (my boss bought a minifridge for our suite with personal funds and my co-worker brought in an old microwave she wasn’t using).
      2) No
      3) University
      4) Huge, but 3 people in my suite.

    24. Anon Moose*

      Yes, even in small nonprofit in falling-apart offices that were converted we have those things.

    25. B-Bam*

      1) In your workplace, do you have access to a refrigerator and microwave?
      Yes, in both locations I’ve worked. In one we had multiple microwaves and two fridges.

      2) In your workplace do you have a place to wash dishes other than the bathroom?
      Yes, thankfully.

      3) What type of environment do you work in? (e.g., office, restaurant, factory, etc)
      Office that serves the public.

      4) How big is your workplace?
      Around 200 people, multiple locations in a city.

    26. special snowflake*

      Yes
      Yes (kitchen sink + dishwasher for more than one person’s dishes)
      Office
      13 people

      1. Bibliovore*

        1) In your workplace, do you have access to a refrigerator and microwave?
        Fridge was here when I got here, I bought the microwave and hot pot with my own money within a week of arrival.
        2) In your workplace do you have a place to wash dishes other than the bathroom?
        We have a sink. I brought in the dishes, the mugs, the sponges, the Dawn, the silverware, the husband gave us the Keurig for Christmas last year.
        3) What type of environment do you work in? (e.g., office, restaurant, factory, etc) Academic
        4) How big is your workplace? 4 to 6 in my department. I am the manager.

    29. BettyD*

      1) Yes to both, plus a coffee machine and an oven/stove combo. (from the 70s, but functional)
      2) Yes, kitchen sink
      3) public library
      4) 11 FT, 10 PT; 26,000 sq ft building

    30. Rebecca in Dallas*

      1) Yes, we have several fridges and microwaves, plus toasters and an ice machine.
      2) Yes, we have a kitchen with a sink (which doesn’t have a disposal). We used to have dishwashers but those got taken away. It’s actually kept our kitchen much cleaner!
      3) Office
      4) Maybe 200 employees at this location? I’m not positive.

    31. SophieChotek*

      Job 1
      1. Refridger and freezer (Yes). Microwave (no)
      2. Yes
      3. Coffee Shop (like Starbucks)
      4. 15 people

      Job 2
      1. Yes to both
      2. Yes
      3. Office
      4. 100

      Job 3
      1. Yes
      2. Yes
      3. Office
      4. 100-150

    32. AnonOmouse*

      1. Yes, we have a fridge & microwave.
      2. We have a tiny “kitchen” sink with a small counter space, next to the fridge & microwave.
      3. Construction office.
      4. Double-wide trailer.

      1. AnonOmouse*

        Oh…

        4.) As for # of employees, we have about 5 permanent at the office I’m in and about 200 that we deal with. Company total is probably close to 3,000.

    33. john watson*

      1) Yes, a set on each floor (we have two)
      2) Yes, on each floor
      3) Office
      4) Not sure how many people, but each floor is large and most of us share an office.

    35. Brett*

      In previous government job with office of 8:
      1) 2 refrigerators, 2 full size freezers, 2 ice machines, 3 microwaves
      2) 3 sinks (previous site had a dishwasher, but we lost that at our new site)
      3) Technically an office, but also an emergency response center
      4) 8 people, but during disasters had about 120

      In current private sector job
      1) refrigerator and microwave on each floor
      2) single sink on each floor
      3) Office building
      4) ~100 people per floor

    36. Sparkles*

      1) Refrigerator, microwave, oven with stove top, regular coffee maker, and a Keurig. We also have a filtered water dispenser. Only thing we’re missing is an ice maker which I would love.
      2) We have a full sink with a garbage disposal. All these things take up most of the space, however. Only have three small tables with chairs and very little room to move around.
      3) Office with an attached warehouse.
      4) Family-owned business with 2 US locations and one in Mexico. Unsure of total # of employees so I’ll say roughly 50-100.

    37. Cassie*

      1) Yes, in the staff lounge (on a different floor than my cubicle). Some nearby coworkers (and my boss) have mini fridges and/or microwaves in their offices so sometimes I use them instead.
      2) No.
      3) University (academic dept)
      4) All together, we have about 50 faculty and 25 staff, plus about 35 labs with grad students/researchers.

    38. AliceBD*

      1. Yes, a big commercial fridge and 3 microwaves, plus a machine that gives ice/cold water and another one that has several coffee options + hot water for tea/hot chocolate
      2. Yes, kitchen sink, and a dishwasher that I have not seen used in the 2+ years we have had this kitchen (had a remodel)
      3. Office
      4. We have about 100-120 employees in this office, maybe 500-1000 on this continent (I’m really not sure), and 20k employees worldwide, on 5 continents. The majority of the employees worldwide are in manufacturing facilities and warehouse facilities, not offices. I don’t know what the kitchen facilities are like other than at the warehouse closest to my location, and I imagine it varies greatly depending on the type of facility and the country.

    39. Fish Microwaer*

      1) Yes, fridge, microwave toaster , sandwich press, sundry mugs, crockery and cutlery.
      2) Kitchen sink
      3) Office
      4) Huge org but our kitchen is used by about 20 people.

  74. Danae*

    I had a funny thing happen to me this week. Recruiter 1 emails me with a job that I am quite suited for. We talk about it, but it’s a) a contract and b) the top end of the pay range is $5 less an hour than I make, with far worse benefits. (And I’d have to be in Nearby Big City, which is its own bundle of “I dunwanna”.)

    I say “Thanks, but I’m going to need to pass.” Not 24 hours later, Recruiter 2 -at the same agency- emails/calls me about the same position. I’m like “I realize I’m an excellent candidate for this role, but…I already said no….?” I did send Recruiter 2 a nice note mentioning Recruiter 1’s name and telling them I’d already passed.

    (and then I had a promising phone screen for a really amazing job…that pays spectacularly poorly. Alas.)

    1. The Butcher of Luverne*

      Recruiters seem to exist in silos. They almost never follow up after they initiate contact (hey, you called ME, remember?) and once you go on the interview and aren’t interested, they drop you like it’s hot.

  75. Gillian*

    What can you do to help a friend/family member who’s been laid off when you’ve never worked with them and are in completely different industries?

    Someone really close to me is searching for a new job, but aside from offering to read over cover letters, I don’t think there’s anything I can do. I write about healthcare for a living and she’s a mechanical engineer. I can’t refer her to jobs at my workplace and none of my past employers (like a PR agency or a private high school) have engineering opportunities, either. But I want to be able to help.

    1. Ell like L*

      So tough to feel powerless in helping a friend or family member. Keep an eye out for job postings (even if you’re unlikely to see them), and offer to look over application materials. If you know anyone in their field, set up a coffee date maybe? If you don’t though, I think you just have to be encouraging and positive.

      1. Gillian*

        We went to the same university so she also knows basically every engineer in our city that I do, but I’ll definitely keep thinking along those lines… thanks!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I was laid off last year, and while I had many fantastic friends forwarding job openings and connecting me to folks in their networks. But even more helpful than that were all the people who just sent me the occasional encouraging email or text, or hung out with me without talking about my job search. Even though it looms large in your life, it’s great to have friendly outlets where you DON’T have to angst about your job search all the time.

      Good on ya for supporting your friend/family member!

      1. Gillian*

        That’s good to know – I can definitely have a baking/watching cartoons afternoon for good vibes.

        Also, I’m super jealous I didn’t come up with your username.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Just provide moral support. I want to offer that as an engineer/project manager, I wouldn’t expect my friends and family to be able to help much in a job searching situation. The industries are fairly specific. Even if you worked at a large manufacturer with engineering opportunities, I personally wouldn’t be qualified for any of them, since my background is all in power plants. Your friend probably knows where to look (options are limited) and would ask for an intro if you had any connections that she knew would help her.

    4. LQ*

      Hey! Let me buy you coffee.

      Talk about not work. Pay for coffee.

      This can be so incredibly helpful. When I was laid off I had to cut out all going out except one. A close friend I have food with once a week, she bought the entire time I was laid off. I felt a little bad about it, but we had a really long chat about it and she made it very clear it wasn’t a hardship (it is always a cheaper meal so not a $50 meal or anything) and that she knew how important it was to me. Having that little space to feel normal and not like look at how hard and frustrating everything is right now? Was so beneficial.

    5. Liza*

      In addition to the suggestions here about being a supportive friend… you could buy her the AAM ebook. :-) It’s on my mind because I just pulled it back out yesterday to prepare for a phone screen I had this morning.

    7. Kate the Little Teapot*

      I think practice interviews could be a great offer, especially if you’re good interpersonally – you could ask her questions she expects she might be asked and give her feedback on the delivery of her answers. Alison’s interview guide actually suggests this and you can send her it!

      Having said that I agree with all the other commenters that emotional support is just as important.

      If you work from home (maybe you do since you’re a writer) and it’s not problematic for you, you could also invite her to come apply to jobs from your place with you while you work – for me personally at least that would help me get a lot more done because I’d feel emotionally obliged to work while at my friend’s.

  76. Jennifer*

    So theoretically our problem of not having enough staff to run the front counter is going to be changed in 2 weeks. They will have students run the counter and one of us will have to do a 3 hour shift as “officer of the day.” (Maybe 2 of these shifts per week?) Which is to say, we’ll still be at our desks but be the #1 person to be interrupted and asked the weird questions of and be responsible for every single IM message sent out looking for help from the entire staff for those three hours.

    Honestly, I don’t know if this is any kind of improvement or not. It is what it is and it’s there to like it or lump it. I spent the last three weeks writing down exactly what I had to do at the counter and while about half of that could be handled by a student, the rest of it is Horrible Weird Shit.

    Oh well, at least they now officially have some kind of plan, so it makes me feel a little bit better in thinking that they may let me out of this job after all.

    1. BuildMeUp*

      I think it will depend on how easy it is to be interrupted that often and how good the student hires are. Especially at the beginning, it will probably feel like the interruptions are non-stop and it’s no better than it was before. If you have decent student hires, though, the interruptions will start slowing down as they get the hang of things.

      I hope things get better!

  77. Isabel C.*

    Salary question!

    Is “around $50,000 a year” reasonable for someone applying for midlevel/senior editor or tech writer positions? I’ve got six years experience as a development editor, three more as an editor in general (plus two as freelance that overlap with my current DE job), and six as a freelance writer. Glassdoor says 50K is about average, but I’ve heard that’s sometimes inaccurate, and wanted to make sure I wasn’t asking for waaay too much.

        1. One of the Annes*

          Fellow technical writer and editor here. $50K actually sounds low to me for the level of experience and the market (major NE metro area). $60-65K would be more reasonable.

  78. StudentAffairsProfessional*

    Hi! I need help with how to approach a hiring manage that I have interviewed with before, but we parted ways due to salary disagreement.

    Back in February/March, I applied for a job within my current organization (Teapot U) that I was really excited about and looked like a great step for me. I went through a phone interview and a day of in-person interviews and really felt good about everything – they seemed to like me, I got along well with the team and the various supervisors I met with. However, in the final interview of the day, I found out there was a mistake with the actual job posting. On the job posting, the hiring range was listed as 45-53k, I currently earn 50k, so I was fine with this. I would be comfortable taking a lateral move pay-wise because I was interested in moving into this department.

    However, they let me know during the interview process that it was a mistake and the true hiring range was 40-44k. I told them I was very interested in the position but could not take that much of a pay cut. They understood and said they were very interested in me, but they couldn’t budge on the hiring range. So, we parted ways. I was pretty annoyed they wouldn’t honor the listed range, especially since it was their mistake (in print!) not due to any misunderstanding on my end. I have applied for a few other jobs but haven’t been as excited as I was for this one.

    Today I was browsing job listings at Teapot U and saw the same job listed again – it’s possible that their hire after me fell through, or that another person in the department left. The hiring range is now listed as 44-48k. Still lower than what I currently earn, but much closer to being acceptable than 40-44k. Should I reach out to the manager I interviewed with and let her know I’m still interested if they are?? How should I broach the salary topic? Ultimately, I don’t think I would take the job for 48, I want to earn at least what I’m earning now. I know from being on the other end of hiring at Teapot U that things aren’t always cut and dried and there could be some wiggle room. Should I try to talk to someone in HR first and see if it’s even a possibility to budge on the hiring range for this position (we all work for Teapot U and have a separate, large HR department that oversees all of Teapot U)? Thanks for your help!!

    1. Laura*

      If you wouldn’t take the job at 48K, don’t reach out– it’s unlikely that they would even agree to that, based on your previous interactions with the company.

    3. Wheezy Weasel*

      I’d take a pass. They’re playing with something like 10-15% of the salary range to find an acceptable candidate, whether the incumbent left or another position opened up. If they had the flexibility to open it up to a wider range, why didn’t they? It may be because they always get a good stream of applicants to work at a University job at a mid 40’s salary. You’re already at the U, so why take a sideways step into an unknown cultural fit? And let’s say that if you manage to twist HR’s arm into a higher salary, would this potentially alienate the hiring manager, who (presumably) had to approve this published range?

  79. Simplytea*

    Has anyone here switched from program administration to research? I’m getting my MPH but currently do a program coordination position, and eventually want to move into the research, public health field. Does anyone have good pointers?

    It’s not the biggest leap because I do have logistical and data experience (qualitative & quantitative) but I’m not sure exactly how to translate that into my cover letter or shoot for the right jobs. Just luck?

    1. SRB*

      What sort of things do you do as a program coordinator?

      I work in public health (policy) research, and tbh, the things I started out doing at entry level were what I’d think of as a program coordinator. In fact, my first project role was project coordinator, though my actual title was research assistant. I did setting up of meetings, taking notes, editing reports, etc.. Once I had enough time to get a hold of the subjects from sitting in, I got to do more research-y things. Collecting data, writing reports, developing methodology, and so on over the years. Depending on what kind of public health research you want to get into, the work will inevitably involve a lot of coordination/management no matter what, so I don’t think it would be that bit of a leap.

      1. MMSW*

        How do you get into the public health field without an MPH? I have a social work degree and years of experience but haven’t had any luck applying for jobs that require a masters in public health or “related fields” I took research classes back in school but have never done research or evluation professionally which is now what I’d like to do. Any advice?

        1. Simplytea*

          Thanks for responding SRB!

          I work for a medical school coordinating their international programs, but mainly deal with program reports, statistics, events, business development, international stakeholders, office administration (ordering supplies, finances, scheduling for head honchos) and legal agreements. I can spin my resume to talk more about data entry and evaluation, but it’s not research research, it’s more data analyzing.

          I’m concerned mainly because my resume background is in support work, like “assistant-this, assistant-that” and I am trying so hard to get out of administrative work! I don’t mind it, but just don’t want it to be the majority of my job. I really enjoy problem-solving and data analysis, so that’s where I’m trying to go instead (especially after I get my MPH!). Thoughts?

          1. SRB*

            I broke into this area at entry level with a degree in economics (no masters’ required at entry level). Then I worked my way into more responsibility, got a masters degree in statistics, and now do more data analysis/research. But people I work with have all sorts of backgrounds. Psychology, epidemiology, pharmacy, even some MSWs!

            I’ve done some interviewing for mid level research analyst positions. I’m not as certain what HR uses at stage 1 for passing them to us, but for someone a step or two above entry level, I’d be looking to see:

            – If you’ve written reports that go to clients, especially if you can summarize them concisely. Bonus points if you present to clients.
            – If you have business development (grant or contract proposal coordinating or writing experience) it’s a HUGE plus. A lot of public health research is funded by the govt through contracts or grants and proposals are the lifeblood.
            – Evaluation of data is actually a good skill to have: you can’t analyze data if you don’t know about it! What’s missing? What are the limitations? Is reporting required? Anyone who comes up with methodology needs to have the ability to look at data with a critical eye instead of assuming it’s perfect!
            – It’s good to have experience using SAS or Stata (or others but those two are big) to do analyses. Be prepared to explain what exactly you’ve done with it!

            I’d go into more detail but I don’t want to “out” myself! :p
            But either of you are more than welcome to email me at eightemu (at gmail) and I’ll forward on to my real email!

            2. MM*

              You are amazingly generous. Haven’t had cause to do much writing beyond assessments at work but figure my on the ground experience would come in handy analyzing data and service delivery

  80. Amber Rose*

    My boss will not do my job while I’m gone for 2 weeks (it was her job previously). It’s just gonna be piled on my desk.

    I haven’t even left and I already don’t wanna come back.

    1. fposte*

      That’s the downside of vacations for a lot of us, I’m afraid–the work doesn’t go away while we’re gone. Have a good time anyway!

  81. AnonasaurusRex*

    So our HR department is thinking about going to PTO accrual based on hours worked each pay period which is a change from our set hours per pay period that we accrue now. I’ve worked at only 4 different places and I’ve never seen it done this way. Mostly I see the set amount for the whole year, or accrue per pay period. That’s also what I see talked about on various sites. I’m curious if anyone here has a company that does this? I’d like an idea of how common this is so if anyone knows where I can find stats, that’d be great.

    1. Danae*

      That’s how my company does it, but that’s because we don’t have guaranteed working hours–I can work 20 hours some weeks and 50 hours the next week. Both sick time and vacation time accrue per hours worked.

      I’m not a fan of it, mostly because it means I have no idea how much vacation time I’ll have when. It’s standard for the contracting end of tech work, though.

      1. AnonasaurusRex*

        I’m full time salaried, so it really won’t affect me much, unless they drastically change the accrual rate, but it will be very hard to plan for how much you’ll have for anyone who is part-time or flex. That’s where I think some of my concern lies. There will be no way to provide reporting on PTO caps anymore.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Almost every company I’ve ever worked for has used the accrual for hours worked system.

      But I’m Canada so YMMV.

    3. Rebecca in Dallas*

      My old job did it this way. It was fine, I still knew about how much PTO I’d have at the time I was planning a vacation or whatever. And they allowed us to go into the negative and it would build back up. The HR person explaining that to me said that if you left the company while your PTO bank was in the negative, those hours’ pay would be taken out of your last paycheck. (At least that was how I understood it.)

    4. SophieChotek*

      One of my jobs did this when I worked full.
      We had a cap of 96 hours. So at the cap, we had to take some, otherwise even if we were eligible to accrue any, we didn’t.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Take it with a grain of salt but I was always told it HAD to be based on hours worked. You can’t accrue vacation time while on vacation, for example. A municipality I worked for was audited on this point, so they had to be rigid about the policy. It seems to be a fairly standard thing.

  82. Marcela*

    I have a question this week… although it’s not even 9 am so I’m not sure I remember it =^.^=

    However, first I want to thank all of you. Next week I have an in-person interview and I got it using all the advice I’ve gotten from this website and community. It’s been interesting but also very educational, telling me many things I could not know as a foreigner. So Thank You!

    Now, my question. Last night I had a call from somebody looking for a freelance developer. I was recommended by my former boss. The thing is, I have an interview next week and I would only work freelance if I can’t get a full time job. Time is not on my side, for this company is taking their time in every step of the hiring process. So I told her I had something in the way and that I should know in 2-3 weeks if I would be free enough to work for her. And then she asked me “how do you charge”. I was super confused by this question, as I understood to be about the “physical” procedure of charging, which is create an invoice and send it, no? However, since I haven’t worked yet as a frelance, I don’t have any of the licenses and permissions required in my city, so I told her I needed a couple of days to figure out how to get what I need.

    Now I feel I screwed up, for she knows I am working in a proyect, I actually told her it’s a project outside the US (which is half true, I am installing a server as a favor to my brother) instead of my interview next week, so she must think I am evading taxes or something. In any case, I wonder if I just misunderstood the question, I mean, she wasn’t asking me how but how much, almost in the same way you can use “what/how do you mean?”.

    In one side, then, my question is about language. In the other, it’s what can you say when you are in a situation like this? I’ve read I should consider myself free until I have something sure, for anything can happen. So I didn’t want to reveal my plans. On the other hand, though, it’s not like I can say “no way, I don’t want to work for you”. What could I say?

    1. Calliope*

      I expect she did mean “how much do you charge,” or “how do you charge” in the sense of “do you charge by the hour, or a flat rate for the project, or what?” I think if you’ve never freelanced before, it’s okay to say “I’m experienced with this kind of work, so I haven’t taken on a project like this one as a freelancer, so I’ll need a little time to research what my rate would need to be — let me get back to you with a quote. Did you have a budget in mind?”

      All of that said, if you’re waiting for a fulltime job to finish a very slow hiring process, you’re probably not going to get this freelance gig — two or three weeks is a long time for them to wait. I’d be tempted to be up-front and say “I’m interviewing for a fulltime job right now, and if I get it, I won’t be available; however, if that doesn’t come through, can I contact you and see if you still need freelance developers?”

      1. Calliope*

        Sorry, I meant “I’m experienced with this kind of work BUT I haven’t taken on a project like this one as a freelancer …” in my comment above.

      2. Marcela*

        Ohhhh! I did not even think about that! My lack of experience freelancing is very obvious :(

        Your wording is perfect, thank you!

    2. Sophie*

      I think they would be asking about what the payment method is – do you take cheques, bank transfer etc. and what your terms of payment are: do you require X amount upfront before accepting work, are there any cancellation fees, do you bill hours weekly, monthly or after specific points in the process, or before the project goes live.

      Make sure you’ve got a contract that spells these things out too!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Kind of an ambiguous question. It could mean how do you bill them, weekly, monthly? Or it could mean how much do you get per hour? What if you need a helper or have to purchase something? Do you need money upfront to even start the project?

      It is probably all these things rolled into one question.

      Nope, she is not thinking about the possibility of you evading taxes. She probably does not care about that.

  83. sad pup*

    No questions, just a small rant. I’ve have a few different (unrelated) medical issues that, in the past, have led to me discovering an unwritten policy where you have to have a conversation with the COO to make sure you know what sick leave is for once you use 50% of your allowed time (1 day/month, so you have to have this conversation if you take 6 days/year). I had that conversation and had to disclose some medical stuff I really did not want to share with her, but it seemed to do the trick.

    In the past two weeks I have had a combination of 2 medical issues, one chronic/ongoing and one prolonged stomach virus, and I had to take 3 sick days over those two weeks. Nothing has slipped through the cracks work-wise and, for the time being, I’m fully back at work. But I got a call from my supervisor yesterday saying that the COO is demanding a doctor’s note because I have taken 50% of my allotted sick leave in the past year. I obviously don’t have a note like this already, so I emailed the doctor primarily in charge of the ongoing condition and asked if he could come up with something for me. He can, but I have to go in person to get it done, and I’m worried that there’s no way for him to write such a note without disclosing more about my health than I want my coworkers to know.

    It’s not a big deal and I know it’s just policy, but it’s really frustrating to me. I’ve never seen this unwritten policy enforced with anyone else in the office, and I feel like I’m getting targeted because I work close to the COO’s office. It all feels condescending and as if my workplace fundamentally distrusts me, when the truth is I never take sick leave I don’t need to take and I often come in when I’m not really well enough to work. And 6 sick days a year is not excessive!

    1. esra*

      This sort of thing annoys the heck out of me. You shouldn’t have to offer justification for using sick days within the limit.

      I miss the workplace I was at previously with unlimited sick days. I didn’t use any more than I usually would, there was just none of the awkward amount watching.

      1. sad pup*

        Yeah. It’s infantalizing and humiliating. It’s basically saying, I don’t believe you when you say you’re sick! That is not what I want to hear from someone I sit 10 feet away from 5 days a week.

        And I’m super lucky I have a doctor who can do this for me — two of those sick days were legitimately for a gross stomach virus that I didn’t go to the doctor for, because what’s the point? I don’t know ANYONE who would go to their doctor for a normal stomach bug unless they suspect it’s a serious problem. I’m getting another doctor to write this note to cover me, but it’s so frustrating.

    2. Anon for this*

      I actually did a complete double take at this, and wondered whether I’d written this in my sleep! No advice; just commiserations.

    3. Ife*

      I’m sorry, that sounds super annoying and uncomfortable. It reminds me of Pieces of Flair from Office Space… if you only want me to use 6 sick days per year, then why don’t you make the limit 6 sick days per year?

    4. Jules the First*

      Heh. My office goes one wackier – you get one full week at full pay plus one full week at half pay per year, which is then logged on your time sheets at 14 half days at full pay (which is not, technically, one and one half weeks). And although our holiday year runs from 1 Jan to 31 Dec, our sick time runs from 1 May to 30 April…

  84. Jules the First*

    What’s the word for the smug feeling you get after discovering that the jerk who rejected you (after her boss interviewed and loved you) for a well-paid, interesting job with a big-name company because ‘you weren’t someone I could see myself working with’ few months ago is still looking for her purple unicorn?

  85. Big McLargeHuge*

    I have an interesting situation. I have a new hire starting Monday (Yay!). Today, while posting some transactions and plugged in with headphones, one of my direct reports comes to my desk to ask if I had heard the entire conversation happening over the wall. I hadn’t but heard the tone at the end, so she filled me in on the front end of the conversation. One of our HR representatives called my new hire to apparently screen for another position that we have open that my new hire had also applied for. My new hire had to tell the HR representative that she had already accepted a position with my organization. Based on the tone I heard in the part of the conversation I did hear, the HR representative thought this was hilarious.

    I know I want to reach out to my new hire with an email to simply state that I’m excited for her to start on Monday and to confirm a few things about her first day, but I’m going to ignore the conversation she had with HR Representative. I also think I should reach out to the HR Director and give him the heads up that this happened and that I’m not happy about this. I wouldn’t be so upset if HR Representative acted mortified that this happened, but based on her response, I can’t help but be a little angry.

    If I had been in New Hire’s shoes, I’d be wondering if the organization had it’s stuff together and really be questioning if it was the right fit for me. I’m upset that it happened for my new hire, but I certainly don’t want it to happen for any other positions as we have positions for highly skilled individuals available.

    Does anyone have any feedback or experience with a situation like this? I think the HR Director needs to be aware, but I don’t know how to address it.

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      It just sounds like a slipup that I wouldn’t worry about to me–do you feel something else was going on, like a direct attempt to poach your new hire? Or by “hilarious” do you mean the HR person thought working for you was hilarious and not the glitch (in which case I’d be ticked off as well)? Do you guys use a hiring system that should have removed New Hire from the listing for the other job when she took yours?

      1. Big McLargeHuge*

        Hilarious as in “I made a this call to someone we already hired for another job”. Knowing HR Representative, I don’t think this was an attempt to poach this new hire, but I would be upset if the new hire thought that the other position was more intriguing than mine was and tried to pursue.

        I have no knowledge of the hiring system we use, so I can’t speak to that, but HR Representative did the background check on New Hire and had talked with New Hire during the process (I knew I forgot something above). I will likely let it go, however, I fear that this will be a reflection of the organization as a whole for New Hire.

        1. fposte*

          I get the desire for a smooth onboarding, but at this point I’d say either your org is like that, in which case fair enough, or it isn’t, and New Hire will figure that out soon enough. But it doesn’t read as a big deal to me with the details you’ve given here.

  86. LV Ladybug*

    Not sure if this belongs on the “work” post but I thought it was funny to share. Just learning what is and isn’t normal in an office, etc. has helped me so much from this blog. But what I find the most fascinating is that I tend to use the examples of Alison’s tone in my private life. My husband tends to get wrapped up into our family drama and I have to tell him that it doesn’t directly affect him and it is none of his business. I don’t get to say a lot of things like that at my work, I am glad I get to say them somewhere. Most importantly, he told me I was right. Win!

    1. Laura*

      I totally agree. I feel that I’ve been better able to handle difficult situations of all kinds, since I started reading this blog. Alison’s straightforward language is great to use with my mom, actually!

  87. Almost_negotiated*

    I’m in final negotiations for a new job, which has a two year wait period from start date for access to paid (and unpaid) parental leave. The company is relatively small and not covered by FMLA laws, and my state doesn’t have any additional protections for new parents. Is it possible to negotiate away the wait time? My partner and I aren’t currently expecting, but I’d be upset if this had an impact on what’s right for our family.

    1. CM*

      I would. I’d explain just what you said– that you don’t have any current plans, but want to make sure you can do what’s right for your family.

    2. Intern Wrangler*

      In our company, exceptions to the benefits eligibility are not something we would negotiate on. Some of it is dictated by our plan language. We can’t change it for one person. Even if it isn’t dictated by the plan documents, it would open us up to have to provide it for all employees. I think two years is a long wait period, and I’m surprised that they don’t have a more lenient standard for unpaid time. Don’t take if personally if they tell you they can’t. If it goes outside their employee handbook, they might not want to take the risk.

    3. Almost_negotiated*

      I gave it a try fully expecting to be told “no” and actually received a very positive response from both HR and my direct supervisor. The details haven’t been worked out quite yet, but I’m optimistic that we’ll settle on something agreeable before I sign a contract. Thanks to both of you for the perspective!

  88. Michele*

    This might sound trivial, but here goes: My college classmate and I were both co-editors-in-chief at our student newspaper. She now lists it in her bios as herself being editor-in-chief. I still work in media, and even though this is 20 years ago, is it a big deal to say something if we were ever in the same scenario (i.e., employees at the same company)? I have to add that she doesn’t “care” for me, but I have the newspapers still.

    1. CM*

      Seems fine for each of you to say you were the editor-in-chief without including the “co.” It’s not like she’s denying you were there too. It would be pretty easy to explain, if you were ever questioned about it, that you were co-editors-in-chief. I was the co-president of an organization and my co- and I regularly referred to ourselves as “President” in situations where it wasn’t relevant that we shared that position.

      1. Michele*

        I understand. I don’t have anything against here. I think it’s mostly because we both did a lot for the paper.

    2. Ell like L*

      It was 20 years ago, you gotta let it go. You will seem petty if you bring it up – like someone who can’t let go of their college football career at their insurance job or something.
      I can’t imagine keeping a college job on a bio/resume/whatever 20 years later anyways.

  89. Anon for this*

    I’m a lawyer at a state government agency. I’m thinking of moving to the private sector, because I find working in government incredibly frustrating and bureaucratic, and it would be nice to make more money. But there are a lot of good things about my job, and the work-life balance is incredible. I have little kids who attend public school. My work makes it so easy to accommodate random days off for teacher conferences, school plays, sick days, etc., which used to be a big source of stress for me. And I have so much room in my life for things outside of work. From 5 p.m. on, I’m completely free. I wonder if I would regret moving to the private sector and going back to a culture where I’m expected to always be available. I may be getting a job offer one day soon, and I keep going back and forth about whether I should take it (interesting work, good culture, great commute, more money) or whether I’m crazy to even think about leaving my current job (amazing work-life balance that I’ll probably never find anywhere else, already well-respected, have some ability to shape my work in ways that interest me, AND I’m in a union so I have great job stability).

    1. LQ*

      Have you talked with people who are doing the kind of lawyering you want to do in the private sector? How much less incredibly frustrating is it? Because there is always some level of frustration and work, and always some bureaucracy (I know it’s a 4 letter word, but just having a hiring process means there is some, how you get paid is some, there is always some thinking of it as a spectrum can help).
      So if it is a spectrum, where does the frustration between 8 and 5 outweigh the frustration between 8 and 8 (or whatever it will be for you). If it is slightly less then maybe going until 8 at night doesn’t make it better, but if it is a lot less maybe it does.

      If you do leave, make sure you are very good about not burning that bridge. I know we’ve had attorneys burn bridges and some who don’t. A lot of the ones who don’t have come back or gone to other agency jobs. If you can find a way to leave that door open that might be a very good way to try it and see.

      1. Anon for this*

        To clarify: I’m applying for in-house counsel positions at companies. I’m pretty confident I’ll like the work, and I’m not intolerant of bureaucracy, just tired of enforcing rules that everyone agrees make no sense and nobody can change. My question is more about whether I’m undervaluing my current work-life balance.

        1. LQ*

          I think that’s really only something you (and your family) can decide. For me, right now? It would take a lot of money to make it worth it to work an extra 20 hours a week. But at past times in my life I did that much work for the same as I make now. Part of that was really interesting work and a mission I believed in. Part of it was the relationships in my life. Do you have a history to compare it too? Like when you worked X you were miserable because it was too much? Or anything like that?

          (I stand by keeping the door as open as you can, and if you have good relationships I think at good places that should be doable.)

          1. the gold digger*

            I am making a lot less than I made 11 years ago, before I was laid off. I had an interview for a job that would get back to where I was. Although I did not get an offer, I really had to think – would I have taken it?

            Right now, I have a boss I adore, co-workers I like and respect, interesting, fun, challenging work with very smart people, and amazing flexibility, that is, I work from home about 30% of the time – any time my boss is out of the office and then whenever my husband needs the car.*

            That is worth a lot of money. (Caveat – I already make decent money that is enough to cover what we need – so extra would be so we could save more or spend more. We don’t need extra to keep a roof over our heads.)

            * My husband’s solution to the one-car problem is that we buy another car. My answer is that as long as we have only one income while he pursues his political interests, he can take the bus to his political meetings.

            1. Product Person*

              “as long as we have only one income while he pursues his political interests, he can take the bus to his political meetings”

              I’m puzzled that you had to spell that out to your husband. Even if the genders were reversed, I’d expect the person not bringing income in to accept the sacrifices involved, including taking the bus to political meetings — it’s not like he doesn’t have the time to spare, tsk.

              1. the gold digger*

                Not to mention it plays well (and it does – he does take the bus) with his constituency, although I have noted to him that the people who are the most vocal about public transit do not seem to be the ones taking it, at least where we live. :)

                1. Product Person*

                  Heh, definitely should count on your husband’s favor when he’s on a debate and his opponent starts talking about public transportation. He could easily get point by asking the question, “and what was the last time you took a bus, candidate?”
                  ;-).

  90. OwnedByTheCat*

    Today is my last day of work. I’m almost ready to walk out the door. Always a crazy surreal feeling!

    Then next week – wedding.
    Then two weeks of enjoying Chicago.
    Then we drive to Austin.
    7/1 I start a new job.

    My head – it is spinning!

  91. jamieeeee*

    I just wanted to thank Alison for AAM, her book, and her resume assistance. After two years of despairing in a job that wasn’t for me, I found a job I’m really, really excited about. I resigned this morning! *bounce bounce bounce*

  92. Stuck five offices down*

    Anyone dealt with this? I have a situation I want to ask Alison (or the comment section) about, but it directly involves a coworker who I know at least sometimes reads this site. I can’t anonymize the situation enough that it would be unrecognizable to said coworker.

    (I’d say I know how she knows she reads the site, but that would be as identifying as the situation itself.)

    So I guess I’ll slog through on my own.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If you really want advice, doesn’t AAM do some consulting? Could hire her?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Well, not quite like this — I don’t do personal consulting, just for organizations (for myriad reasons, including that it would be too close to becoming a personal coach, which is just not my thing).

    3. fposte*

      Can you warp it? Don’t acknowledge it’s related to this post, use a new name, set it in law or someplace it isn’t.

        1. fposte*

          Those are fun, but they’re clearly pseudonymous, whereas if you write in and say “My colleague in marketing at a sporting goods company” people don’t tend to think you really mean your fellow paralegal in a law firm.

    5. NewBee*

      Can you change gender, time, plus industry like fposte said? I feel like if you write in about working at a law firm with a male coworker who’s been poaching your clients for the last 6 months, no one will suspect it’s really a female coworker at a retail store who has been stealing your commission.

      I empathize; I am ridiculously paranoid about people I know finding me out online.

  93. Anon In Houston*

    I’m hoping I get in here early enough to get some feedback.

    I have quite a bit of job hopping on my resume due to some layoffs (I work in oil/gas), and have worked several long term contract roles since late 2012. My first contract role was 2 yrs and ended because of budget cuts. I’ve currently been in my latest role since April 2015. There have been a lot of changes since I started. I was originally supposed to be contract to hire, but due to market conditions that hasn’t happened. My immediate boss got fired. In fact, none of the contract to hire folks have converted. And now because the department I support has moved to another state, my boss has told me that more than likely my role will be moving as well, more than likely by late August. This has nothing to do with my work, which I have gotten great feedback on and more to do with the powers that be. I’m so bummed out but I have no choice to but to start looking.

    I am SO tired of working contract roles. I want another full time job. Does any one have suggestions on how to better present my skill set (financial analysis/budgeting) despite a combo of full time/contract roles?? I get plenty of calls…for more contract work. What else should I be doing, ya’ll??

    1. BRR*

      I don’t have much advice but on the upside job hopping doesn’t count if it’s layoffs or contract work. Job hopping is basically you voluntarily leaving or being fired for some reason other than budgetary issues.

    2. Mazzy*

      This is just my POV but I am hiring now and reading hundreds of applications, the biggest errors are ones that get repeated ad nauseum on the net because applicants keep on making them:

      1) no cover letter
      2) canned cover letter
      3) talking vaguely about “finance/budget/accounting/reporting/analytical skills.” Very easy to claim and MANY people do. Actually, I am used to seeing 20 computer programs on resumes so can’t even screen based on computer skills anymore, so I used the resume and cover letter as a gauge.
      4) Don’t include an objective unless you worked in one type of job for a long time
      5) quantify things on your resume. So few people even in finance roles are doing that! Way too many resumes out there without figures, and they all look the same.
      6) DON’T gloss over the fact that jobs were temp or fail to mention the job hopping somewhere. I have seen many resumes recently with what look like a series of perm jobs lasting 9-12 months coupled with a canned cover letter about how they have great communication and analytical skills, and I’m not calling them. You need to give a hiring manager hope that you want to stick around at this job and to give them something specific to bite on.

      My personal opinion is to include a limited number of specific accomplishments on your resume and not try to make it look like you can do everything or have done everything. I never know what to do with those kind of resumes, where the person says they do the accounting/bookkeeping/finance/graphic design/operations/customer services/sales support. I bet if you do all of those things you’re not doing some of them at the level of detail we need. I’d rather have someone focused even if its on something we don’t necessarily do. They can show versatility during the interview.

  94. Piper*

    I’ve been doing some unpaid work for a startup, but after some digging, I’ve realized this isn’t legal (at least i don’t think it is). I’m treated as an employee – the CEO dictates what I work on and when I work on it and I have no autonomy (that’s another problem because it’s a bit crazy). I work on it as a side project for about 10 hours a week, but there is no pay, there is no equity, only the hope of fundraising and a foggy promise of a market level salary and cash bonus.

    I originally started it because I really like the product and the space and I had the time, but it’s starting to wear on me since he’s so controlling plus I have lots of paid work (I’m a freelancer) starting up soon and I won’t have a ton of free time for this guy to dictate, so I’m leaving anyway. But I think he owes me some money (not that I’m going to go after him or anything, but he does).

    Thoughts on this? Not being paid is indeed illegal, even for a non-funded startup, right?

    1. Piper*

      A little more info (because now that I’ve written this out, I’m more annoyed):
      I have to use all of my own equipment and software (that I pay for because of my freelance business), but he treats me like an employee, demanding to know how many hows I plan to work, exactly what I’m working on and makes me (and everyone else) track their time down to the minute. If he thinks we take too long to do something, h has a fit. If we don’t get in the hours we think we’ll get in, he has a fit.

      Gah. I just need to leave. This was a pet project, but it’s become a monster. I have plenty of freelance and FT options, so it’s not like I need it to fill my time. It’s actually become a hindrance to the paid work I do at this point.

      /venting

    2. Anie*

      I don’t think this is illegal unless you began with the understanding that you’d be paid. Otherwise it’s just volunteering your time.

      You could go back to him and explain why you are no longer in the position to do so and either offer a rate he could pay you, or just part ways.

      1. Piper*

        I found a few articles that indicated it was illegal since they are treating me as an employee (i.e, dictating my projects, my time, how I do things, etc). I’m not considered a founder (if I were, I should have 20%+ equity). It’s the same reason most internships need to be paid, from what I understand. Can anyone really legally “volunteer” at a company (not a non-profit)?

        But I agree with your overall approach to handling it – just say this arrangement is no longer working and part ways.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s illegal. You can’t volunteer for a for-profit business unless it meets the federal test for an internship (it’s benefitting you and not them), which this clearly doesn’t. It violates minimum wage law. They need to be paying you.

      The stuff about using your own equipment and tracking your hours doesn’t impact that either way — except in regard to whether you should be paid as an employee or as a consultant. But either way, it’s illegal not to pay you.

  95. MSG Noodles*

    I have been working at the same company for many years with excellent reviews, but never a promotion. My colleagues have jumped ahead of me. I finally raised this with my boss. And, she told me it’s because I’m quiet, never question anything, and always do as I’m told. I always thought these qualities get you ahead, and in my culture you are taught to respect authority and do as your told. Apparently, I need to change. But, how? what?

    1. Piper*

      Are you female by chance? I’ve been told the exact opposite – I’m “abrasive” or “aggressive” and need to “soften my communication” to get promotions. But I’m sure if I were doing what you do, I’d be hearing exactly what you hear too. Equality hard at work!

    2. Ell like L*

      I bet it’s frustrating that you didn’t receive this feedback until you asked specifically.

      I would do the following
      1) Look at peers who have jumped ahead. How do they push back or speak up? If you look at the ways that they’re taking initiative in daily things I think you can mimic that.
      2) Start looking for small ways to take initiative. Suggest a small project for yourself to your boss, give a couple of pieces of feedback in meetings. If your workplace is social, maybe go out for lunch or coffee with people a couple of times a week to pick their brain and discuss work.
      3) Go back to your manager and ask for specific feedback. Say “As we discussed, I would like to be considered for a promotion in the future. What specifically can I do to make it more likely that I would be in the running? Can you give me some examples?”

    3. Not Karen*

      I understand your frustration and confusion. What gets you ahead is going to somewhat depend on the employer. In my last job, those qualities would have indeed gotten you ahead.

    4. LQ*

      I agree this absolutely depends on the corporate culture. Great job on raising it! I’m sure that was tough.

      The good news is she did give you some really direct feedback. Are these things you think you can do? If you hear something you disagree with or something you have additional questions about think about what a slightly more outgoing/aggressive coworker would do. Generally they don’t want you to question everything, just the things that don’t make sense. If you are in a meeting and something doesn’t make sense the way they are doing it that’s a time to ask some questions. If you are asked to do something and you are concerned about a problem then raise that problem.

      It helps me to think of it as sort of I’m doing my employer/boss/whatever very well by assuming that they know I’m smart. Now if they know I’m smart then the work that I do they’ll assume I’m good at. Now that they assume I’m good at they are going to expect me to raise things that might be an issue, say, hey, I think if we did that there might be a problem here. If they still say, nope, go forward as is then you step back and do what you are told. But that first time of raising the question or concern can be a part of your job.

      Good luck on making this shift. (Alternately, finding a different corporate culture that works better for you.)

    5. Product Person*

      MSG Noodles, ” I always thought these qualities get you ahead, and in my culture you are taught to respect authority and do as your told. Apparently, I need to change. But, how? what?”

      Oh, you are so totally wrong! Read the book “How to Be a Star at Work” and you’ll know why. “Initiative-taking” is a critical aspect of getting ahead, and reading the book you’ll see what it really means, because even people who think they are initiative takers are typically wrong. If you want to get ahead, this is a required reading for you. Good luck!

  96. Tsuriaga*

    What do I do if upper management is piling on more manual reporting (6-8 times throughout my work day), having me cross train coworkers, and asking me to edit our reporting materials, all while I’m supposed to do my primary job? I never know if I have free time to do this extra work because we don’t have a live updated work inflow system in place, so instead I have to manually check to see if I have ‘primary job functions’ to fulfill. My manager is not the one coming up with the extra workload, so I don’t blame them, but I feel unable to do good work and produce good numbers I can unashamedly report on with all this other crap that they want me to do! Furthermore, the stuff we are to report is not even the stuff that will keep us in business long term, but I feel so pressured to do the short term stuff that I don’t know what is highest priority anymore.

    What should I say to my manager, and what can I say to upper management to have me back some of this stuff off/hurry up the process to automate it?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Make a list of what you are juggling.
      Ask your boss what she wants you to work on and what she wants you to let go of. Explain that things are starting to slide. Show her what is sliding.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      The more concrete numbers you can provide, the better your case.

      The hard numbers part is easy: that’s the actual time it takes you to do all of these extra things per day/week.

      The softer part is harder (heh) but can’t be discounted: the distraction factor of having to interrupt primary job for all of the things that aren’t primary job. Reasonable human beings can understand this as a factor, even if you can’t quantify as easily. If you are being interrupted 6 to 8 times each day for manual reporting, that’s significant.

      Now a plug for upper management: they may not be a bunch of dunderheads. They could be far enough removed from the day to day that they are counting on your manager to push back if they’ve asked for something that’s going to destroy productivity. So take heart, provide your boss with figures with which to push back, and maybe this all works out to better process.

  97. Applesauced*

    Office parties – I really don’t want to go…. we have a big summer party coming up. It’s at a restaurant, and no plus ones (I’m guessing it’s a buffet rather than sit down)
    The office is HUGE 600 people, I’m newish (6 months) to the company, kind of shy and still haven’t made any good friends here… (I understand the catch 22 here – I don’t like social events where I don’t know people, but I can’t get to know people without going to social events). PLUS there’s a concert in the park I’d rather go to, AND I’m taking a professional exam a few days later so want to relax before spending all weekend prepping.
    Is it ok to go for like a hour, say hi to my team then peace the F out?

    1. Crylo Ren*

      I’ve done this. I’ve gone to events and stayed long enough to make sure I was seen, and then peaced out. It didn’t seem to do any harm, at least.

    3. BRR*

      I think it’s ok if you don’t go and just say you have a prior obligation unless your office really frowns upon people missing these things.

    4. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Yes, I do this. My work doesn’t do dinner parties, but they love happy hours. I’m not a big drinker and really prefer to spend my downtime at home, not work with people. So I make an appearance, sip on a drink and make the rounds, then skeedaddle.

  98. A Definite Beta Guy*

    Need advice from IT/Network people.

    What sort of skill set, education, and background are you looking for in a typical Business Analyst role?

    1. ladyb*

      Ideally practical business analysis experience, but failing that, evidence of an enquiring mind. You would need to show that you can understand both business and technology viewpoints, good communication skills and an interest in solving problems and improving processes. You need to have persistence to see things through to an amicable conclusion. I would not insist on a qualification – I prefer practical experience – but I’m only one data point, others’ views may differ.

    2. Rubyrose*

      I think ladyb’s comments are on target.

      From my experience, for someone trying to break into the BA role, they either come from the business side (so they know the business really well) and have shown interest and ability to learn technical, or the opposite (knows technical, but shown interest and ability learn the business). I look for people who can show how they have built education and experience in both sides of the coin.

      Education – is across the board, given the way people break into it. In a healthcare setting, for example, it is not unusual (and actually valued) to see BAs with a nursing degree.

      I would be leery of hiring someone into an industry they did not have experience in until they have solid experience (several years) with a BA title. Someone with 5 solid years as a BA in the teapot industry will have transferable skills to be able to work, say, in retail.

      Skillset – ability to organize, shift gears at a moment’s notice, learn constantly, communicate with people at all levels of the organization, juggle many projects at a time.

  99. Pennalynn Lott*

    Yelp advertising – Anyone here have any experience with it?

    Boyfriend wants us to pay $335/month for Yelp’s “Cost-Per-Click Auction-Based Auto-Bidding Program”. The contract says something about us paying a minimum amount for each click (presumably a link to our Yelp page, as well as if someone clicks on our “Contact Us” button), but that the amount would go up by an unnamed, undefined amount if another company is also “bidding” for that click. Which means we could end up paying $335/mo for just a single click per month.

    Any other business owners (or marketers) have any sage advice for me on this?

    1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      Why don’t you do a Google Ad, then you pay per click and can set your own budget? I’ve heard of so many bad things about Yelp abusing business owners that I wouldn’t touch their advertising with a ten foot pole.

    2. Former Yelp employee*

      I have to go anonymous for this, but I used to work at Yelp doing ad sales. Your cost per click will vary based on the number of searches happening, the industry, and if any other similar companies are doing it. You will NEVER pay your whole budget for just one click. Ask the Yelp rep for the estimated cost per click. Then you’ll be able to figure out how many clicks you could get according to your budget.

      I hope that makes sense. Feel free to ask me more questions!

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Thank you! I was using the whole-budget-for-one-click as a worst-case scenario, because there’s nothing in the contract guaranteeing a certain structure or schedule for the per-click charges.

        It just seems so fishy that they charge per-click, but can’t tell me how much I will pay; I can only set a cap on my overall monthly cost. Plus, I’ve read waaaay too many articles about “click farms” in foreign countries for me to feel comfortable with them charging per click, especially if I’m bidding against another company, which could also be the product of a click farm. I can easily see Yelp saying, “Let’s charge $0.50 per click, then pay a ‘click farm’ $0.01 per click and make a massive profit.”

        1. Former Yelp employee*

          They CAN tell you the estimated cost per click, which isn’t fishy at all– all cost-per-click advertising has this. The CPC doesn’t usually change that much– often, it’s by just a few cents. I assure you, Yelp doesn’t work with “click farms” at all, and actively prevents that kind of thing from happening; i.e. if an angry competitor decides to click on your ads all the time, they will stop showing the ads on that IP address.

          Yelp is a great company, and I have absolutely no qualms about the advertising program. I would just encourage you and your boyfriend to get all the information before getting started, and stay in touch with your Account Manager if you ever have questions.

          1. Pennalynn Lott*

            I should also add that I am skeptical because I can’t find any small business (that’s not a restaurant) who has said, “Paying Yelp to put a link for my company on top of a competitor’s page has doubled my business!” Everyone I have called said they never so much as broke even. [We’re a residential and store-front window cleaning company, so I have called window cleaners in other geographies, maid service companies, pressure washing companies, etc.]

            Plus I just found out that Angie’s List (which *has* more-than-doubled our business) is about to open up our market so that anyone can search the List, not just members. Which will give us access to hundreds of thousands more potential customers.

            1. Joanna*

              My guess is that most people searching for your kind of business aren’t likely to do it via a Yelp search so putting ads in Yelp search results might not be worth it. It does seem likely that some would arrive on a yelp profile via a Google search so it’s probably worth keeping your profile up to date regardless of whether you run Yelp ads or not.

        2. Former Yelp employee*

          Also forgot to add– Yelp doesn’t arbitrarily determine the cost-per-click. It’s done by a computer algorithm, and based on your industry. So a fast food restaurant would have a very low CPC because their product is inexpensive. A custom-flooring business would have a higher CPC because they provide an expensive product/service.

  100. AnomThisTime*

    I need advice. I know I screwed up but I’m not sure if I need to explicitly own up for it or just stick it in my own “don’t do it again” file.

    I was at a company “open house” a recruiter invited me to attend. For context: I am anxious and an introvert, I had been at another networking event earlier, and the only way I can get through a lot of these things is by going on autopilot.

    I was talking to someone from the department I’d likely be working in if they hired me, and at the end of the conversation I was like “nice to meet you, here’s my card.” He responded “are you working with a recruiter?” and I realized you’re not supposed to do that, but responded, “yeah, I’ll let him know I talked.”

    Are people at the company likely to think I’m trying to circumvent the recruiter (I’m not, I was on autopilot after a long day and not thinking)? Is is likely to get back to the recruiter? Should I tell him, or just act like this never happened? Aaa I’m so stressed out by this.

    1. B-Bam*

      I don’t think this sounds like you made a mistake. Sounds like you were networking, talking with people you’d work with, probably exactly the why the recruiter invited you. It doesn’t sound like you were saying “here’s my secret resume – shh, don’t tell Recruiter Jim”. I’d suggest reaching out to the recruiter and saying “Thank you for the invite to X open house. I enjoyed talking to Sammy Smith in the Teapot Department. Do they have any openings?”

      1. AnonForToday*

        Specifically I am concerned about having given a card with my personal contact info, which I know recruiters often take off resumes when submitting them.

        1. B-Bam*

          I think it’s unlikely to get back to the recruiter and it’d be weird for the company to read so much into such a normal gesture but only you know how the person responded in the moment. I’d play it casual and not make a big deal of it while reaching out to the recruiter to thank them for the event, mention the good connection with that company person and ask about openings.

    2. BRR*

      You’re fine. You would have only made a mistake if you lied about working with a recruiter.

    3. Rex*

      I think you’re overthinking this. The recruiter invited you, of course you’re going to be talking to people. You mention the recruiter when asked. Even if you hadn’t give the person your card, they knew your name and would still probably be able to figure out how to track you down (LinkedIn, etc.)

      1. AnonForToday*

        That’s true. Thanks.

        I get nervous because it always seems like there are a million unwritten rules to getting a job, and I’m afraid I’m breaking all of them.

  101. Anon4this*

    I was wondering if anyone knows about the federal laws protecting employees rights to discuss compensation. Do these protections extend to managers as well as staff level employees? I ask because I manage a function (not direct reports) in my company’s Teapots Development department and sometimes a Teapot Designer or Analyst (who are managed by someone else) will ask me about yearly raises and what percentage I received in the past/what they should expect this year, etc. My company actively discourages discussion of compensation for employees of all levels, so I am wondering if I have any protections if I do in fact respond to these questions.

    1. Kate the Little Teapot*

      I did some research into this and supervisors are the only ones who are exempt – and then HR can’t discuss the salaries of others. Since you don’t manage direct reports it sounds like you are protected but I am hoping that someone who can better explain how the NLRB defines “supervisor” comes along.

      https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/labor-employment/b/labor-employment-top-blogs/archive/2013/02/21/you-have-the-right-to-discuss-salary-with-coworkers.aspx

      https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/labor-employment/b/labor-employment-top-blogs/archive/2013/02/21/you-have-the-right-to-discuss-salary-with-coworkers.aspx

  102. Roza*

    I realize that academic experience is different than private sector experience, but bias against people right out of school seems…excessive?…at my current job. I started a little under a year ago after getting a PhD in a substantively unrelated field that uses the software and analytic approches common in my new field. I nearly quit right after I started when I overheard the then-VP in charge of the office discussing a resume and saying not to follow up because, “Who cares if he has a PhD? He doesn’t have any work experience! He’s not useless, he’s worse than useless!” She’d always been nasty to be in private, but thankfully left the company. Lately I’ve been involved in hiring and the debriefs on candidates have felt like a parade of bashing people who are right out of school, ranting about how terrible”green” people are, etc. Obviously I did something to impress them because they hired me, I’ve gotten nothing but rave performance reviews, and my responsibilities have been steadily increasing since I was hired. At the same time, it’s hard not to feel self-conscious about my background or feel defensive around the people who are especially vocal about how school is worthless. It’s even more frustrating when I catch big errors in research design and such. Everyone makes mistakes, but if you have private sector experience (not even any industry -related, literally just a private sector job) mistakes are shrugged off, whereas if you’re fresh out of school it’s attributed to stupidity and/or carelessness. It’s also common that I’ll make a suggestion and it will be ignored, then someone with Work Experience will suggest the same thing and it will be enthusiastically embraced.

    Two questions: is this normal? And do any of you have tips for dealing with feeling defensive and demoralized because you constantly listen to trash talk about people with a similar background to you?

    1. JuniorDev*

      Having a preference for people with work experience over school experience is fairly normal. Exclaiming that a person is “worse than useless” is really not ok. It sounds like your workplace is fairly toxic if people are going on rants like this regularly. IMO that’s a separate issue from the school vs. experience one, but I think if it’s really stressing you out it’s worth saying something if you feel safe doing that, and starting to look for other jobs if you don’t.

    2. Laura*

      Well, that VP was a JERK. But companies have every right to prefer people with work experience. Anybody venting about new grads is being unprofessional; that stuff doesn’t have any place in a work environment. Sounds like your company is awfully harsh.

    3. Ad Astra*

      It’s hard to tell if the people in your office are being excessive in their discussion of this or if you’re perceiving it that way because you’re sensitive about it.

      In many jobs, being fresh off a PhD and fresh off a bachelor’s would make two candidates equally qualified. (Obviously, it would depend on the job, the industry, and probably the field of study, among other things.) A college education doesn’t generally come with much practical experience, and the practical experience is what’s important.

      So, the preference for people with private sector experience makes lots of sense. The amount and intensity of the bashing that’s apparently going on at your office is pretty over the top, though, assuming your perception is accurate. The longer you work, the less these criticisms will apply to you.

      1. BRR*

        A PhD can also be a deterrent. Will they abandon this job for a teaching position? Does the applicant think they are too good for this job? Are they too set in the ways of academia?

      2. Roza*

        Yes, I don’t question at all that the private has its own quirks and consequently its own learning curve, so the preference itself makes sense. It’s the constant harping on it that strikes me as weird. And also makes me wonder why they hired me in the first place. The way they talk you’d think people straight out of school had the plague.

        Also agree that it applies to me less and less, but that brings up another weird point. People with a PhD and a year or work experience (ANY white collar work experience…can be a totally different industry) are usually brought on at a level above where I currently am. So…given that I’m apparently doing a good job, will I be promoted when I, too, have 1 year of (very relevant) private sector experience? I’m guessing not, because they usually don’t promote analysts unless they’ve been here a few years. And the one year mark will therefore probably be when I start to look for something else.

        1. Roza*

          The other piece of this is that we’re short-staffed (hence the hiring) and I’ve been working 45-50+ hour weeks for the past two months to get projects done on time. I’m also one of only a people in the company who can do certain complicated analytical things…and they’re both several levels above me. So it’s a bit frustrating busting my ass to do things that few other people can while listening to a steady stream of complaints about how people like me are just a burden and can’t possibly contribute. Um…if I’m so useless, build the statistical models yourself.

  103. Anie*

    Bahahahaha.

    I complained to an ex/old friend a month or two ago about my job. Usual crap, being stressed, dealing with rude clients.

    Today, as I was showing my boss a video on my phone of a friend whose area was flooding, a message popped up at the top of my screen from the old friend: “Hi! How are you? Is work getting any better?”

    My boss handled it really well. She turned to me and said, “I couldn’t help but notice that message. Is everything going ok?” I just laughed and said it was me being winey about such and such person forever ago (and who I’m told me boss about at the time).

    Still, fuunnnnny but could have been awkward and complicated.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      A little awkward, but it would have been much worse if it had said, “Your boss still being a jerk?”

    2. Rebecca in Dallas*

      That is funny! And that probably means your boss values you and wants to make sure you’re happy!

  104. Kate the Little Teapot*

    What do you do after an internal interview if you know you were a great candidate who might have been offered the role but someone narrowly edged you for whatever reason? I wasn’t given anything specific I could improve at any point, so clearly they’re not holding the reason against me. In this case we have multiple people in this role and could add more and nearly all hires to this role are internal because it requires a lot of experience with the unique style of teapot making practiced here. So, it’s likely that interviewing again will result in a hire.

    Do you keep in touch with the manager? Do anything else differently at work? Internal interviewing is pretty new to me so I want to make sure I understand all the options and appropriate things to do.

    1. BRR*

      I’d thank them for their time and say you hope they keep you in mind if a similar role opens up in the future.

  105. Anon Moose*

    Our nonprofit offices are the opposite of fancy or new. Over the almost three years I’ve worked here there have been many problems with temperature regulation, such as unbearably cold in the winter or heat/ac breaking when people change the temp. And the office used to be subdivided so there’s at least three thermostats and there are many many micro climates. One office can need a space heater while the other needs a fan while the next office over is fine.

    So I have a young recent grad coworker who is one of the most junior people there and here temporarily. He CONSTANTLY complains that his office is hot. Loudly and vociferously several times a day. The other day he walked around with a bag of ice from the freezer on his head and complained to coworkers all down the hall. It is warm, and he has a fan constantly running. I sit in an office a few yards away and I am fine. (He also wears full sleeve business attire every day though our office culture is definitely more casual so that may have something to do with it).

    He has now been enlisting a newer manager (who sits down the hall a bit) to change the office thermostat. The problem is that the thermostat is clearly not at all accurate to the actual temperature, and changing the settings does very little for this person’s office but a change can make coworkers’ offices around us frigid. I’ve asked him that if he does change it, not to change it too drastically because it can affect other people. I’ve offered my spare fan, suggested that maybe he should switch wardrobe for the summer or that he move offices when one is open. He won’t do any of those things or says it won’t make a difference and keeps complaining/ changing the temp. But mostly I am just tired of hearing about it, and definitely annoyed. ARG. I’m not his manager, and this is personal not work related, so how do I address this?

    1. I also hate the heat*

      If he is constantly and loudly complaining while he is at work I would say that is work related. Unless he has a medical condition affected by the heat doesn’t seem like there’s anything you can do. Maybe you, or someone, could send an email to everyone reminding them of the issues with the thermostat or just put the fan in his office and tell him sorry its too hot but this is an old building, we don’t have money to upgrade this is why you can’t change the temp.

      1. Anon Moose*

        A couple people (myself included) have tried that. It is still constant. It is an old building. We all deal and wear layers to accommodate the different temp changes which are unpredictable but just kind of a fact of life. I get that it’s harder for guys to do that with professional clothing but… he’s making this everyone’s problem.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      He’s a recent grad with an OFFICE? I think he should go work in one of those collaborative open offices that’s fully air conditioned and see whether that’s better.

      Signed,
      Crabby Open Office-Hating AdAgencyChick

      1. the gold digger*

        Ditto,

        Signed,

        Crabby Open Office Hating Marketing Chick Who Used To Have An Office And Runs Her Space Heater At Work Every Day Even In The Summer

        (And whose Indian name is, “WearsHerWinterCoatAllTheTime.”)

    3. LCL*

      Are you asking how to get him to stop complaining, or are you asking how to stop him from messing with the thermostat?
      If it’s the first, everytime he complains, call him on it. ‘That’s the 3rd time this hour, Jherek. I get that you are too warm.’
      If it’s the second, well, thermostats aren’t magic and they aren’t gender restricted. Freeze for awhile then go turn the thermostat back up. This way is inherently confrontational so don’t be a big jerk about it, just do it. Unless you need the managers permission. Then you and the others should ask the manager too.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d tell him that his constant complaints make it 1o times worse. I can usually ignore it if it’s hot or cold, but if someone is mentioning it numerous times a day, it seems even more uncomfortable.

      One thing I actually have said is “We are all in the same boat. Everyone is uncomfortable from either heat or cold.”

      Or you could say, “Yes, and dwelling on it makes it worse, doesn’t it?”

  106. New Reader*

    There are reorganizations occurring where I work and I’m starting to hear about the potential for my tasks to change/increase and the possibility of a promotion. While I’ve been with the same company for several decades, I’ve never negotiated salary. I just took what was offered for job changes and raises as that seemed to be the way it was done here – very structured pay ranges and raises.

    But I’m getting the impression that should the promotion occur, it might be a chance to negotiate salary for a change. Unfortunately, I don’t think the new responsibilities combined with current tasks will fit into a nice neat classification that is comparable to standard job titles to use for salary comparisons. It will most likely be a compilation of a variety of several types of tasks (e.g., some teapot design, some analysis, some production). And the full scope and extent of each may not be fully known at the point of the promotion.

    Ideas for how to prepare for and approach salary discussions should the promotion occur?

  107. Appleblossom*

    So, I work at a small nonprofit but we do fairly big work. We recently hired a young person who many of us now believe is in a sexual/romantic relationship with the President of our Board. We believe that this is not how the relationship has been characterized to my ED. This position was not advertised and the Board President personally pushed the program manager to make this hire. The nature of the relationship came to light due to some posts on social media. The new hire does have the qualification for the job and would have been a strong candidate in an open interview. The fact that the position was not advertised, the board member called personally to recommend this person and the fact that the true nature of the relationship is a secret is troubling to me. On a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being the most problematic), how much of a conflict of interest would you say this is?

    1. Anon Moose*

      Oof. Well I can’t speak to conflict of interest, but I would assume that the ED would want to know, since it could affect the organization and them personally.

    2. Ell like L*

      Honestly, on a scale of 0-100 Not Your Business, this issue is a 100. Leave it alone and stop gossiping about it. This person is qualified, so let their work stand on its own.

      It would be terrible to walk into a new job and have people gossiping about this, especially since you don’t know for sure if it’s true or not.

      Even if it’s true, what are you going to do about it other than stew? It’s out of your hands.

      1. The Butcher of Luverne*

        Yeah, I have to agree with this.

        Unless they are found in flagrante delicto, or the relationship impacts the office, it’s really not your business.

        1. Observer*

          Except that is could. It’s the kind of thing that could blow up big time. It would be one thing if someone had gone deep dumpster diving to find some dirt. That’s not something you want to touch with a 100 mile pole, nor is it something you need to worry about. (In fact, I’d be much more worried about the dumpster diver.) But, if either party is putting up social media posts that are publicly view-able that makes the relationship fairly clear, that’s a sign of bad judgement somewhere AND it makes it quite likely that this will come back to haunt the organization.

          I do agree on the gossip bit, though. The thing to do is to NOT discuss it with anyone, with the exception of passing on the link to your ED. And, then that’s it. Don’t even follow up with the ED.

          1. Artemesia*

            This sort of thing happens all the time and while it isn’t ethical no one really cares. How will it ‘blow up’ on the organization? No one will care if money is not embezzled and the job is getting done.

            1. Observer*

              That’s not true. At least not in the non-profit sector. It’s a clear conflict of interest, which can create all sorts of problems, from terrible PR to legal issues. In NY State, a hire like this would be flatly illegal.

    3. Appleblossom*

      Thanks guys. Just wanted a reality check since so much is dysfunctional here that sometimes one wonders what is and is not OK. I was more interested in what the responsibility of a board member would be in such a situation.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        As a board member, I would be concerned about who I had to answer to. For example, do I have to prove the job was advertised? Does a set number of applicants have to be interviewed? It depends on who oversees the org and it depends on funding sources.

        I will tell you this, if I knew this to be true then as a board member I would either try to remedy or I would quit the board.

        I am not sure where you fit in relationship to these other people. If they are all senior to you, then I would keep my mouth shut unless a board member asks directly. Then I would only answer with what I had first hand knowledge of. It looks so far like your first hand knowledge is the rumors you hear?
        When you asked this question, I already knew other things were going on, too. Usually a situation like this is a symptom of bigger problems. If there are bigger fish to fry, the board probably will not care or act on this any time soon.

        Please keep an eye peeled for corruption and make sure you do not get hurt in that mess, if you find one.

      2. Observer*

        I’m going to somewhat disagree with NSNR. This is TOTALLY not ok, even if this job didn’t need to be posted, etc. For the rest of the board, this is something that should cause them to be very worried, because if it’s true, it is an absolute conflict of interest, and in some states definitely illegal.

        Theoretically, if the posting were public, I’d pass that information on to my ED. However, if things are really this dysfunctional, that might not be your best bet. And, I agree with NSNR that you should do whatever it takes to protect yourself. Looking for a new job might be a good idea here.

  108. Former Avon Sales Rep*

    I’m trying to figure out if my salary is competitive for my industry, location, etc. I know there are many factors that go into figuring out a market salary, but I thought I’d ask you all here for some input.

    I work in Communications for a Fortune 200 company. I’m mid-level (been in the industry for almost 10 years) and an individual contributor. I’ve been at my current company for five years. I currently making $65,000 annually (gross) w/no bonuses. (Bonuses are only given to management level employees at my company.) Does this figure seem to be in line?

    2. BRR*

      I would need to know a little bit more about what type of role you are in. Being in the industry for 10 years isn’t enough to qualify your salary as it really matters what you do.

      1. Scotty Smalls*

        Most of my role involves creating training materials for our sales execs. Its a lot of writing and creating content.

  109. Friday Brain All Week Long*

    Ever have a performance review where your boss says you’re a top performer and you’re going to get more responsibility, and then you forget to ask for a raise? Because that is me right now today. FML. I guess I’ll wait until the responsibility materializes and then ask to revisit my salary.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      You can totally bring this back up! Next 1:1 — “I was so thrilled to hear that you’re pleased with my performance and hope to give me more responsibilities. I’d love to talk more about that, and also discuss how my compensation might reflect the increased responsibilities. Can we discuss that?”

        1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

          Thank you Jillociraptor! You’re right, the conversation is not over just because this meeting is. I’ll revisit it soon and will ask for the raise.

          My husband was recently shocked in hearing that I’ve never asked for a raise before in my life and I was shocked to hear he always has. Not that it’s a gender thing but I still feel like I let down The Womanhood for having so many missed opportunities in my career for more $$.

  110. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Adventure of the last 2 days (will be best understood/appreciated by marketing or artist types):
    (all of this was either initially in writing or confirmed later via writing, so no reliance on whisper down the lane instructions)

    Teapot Supplier Sales Rep: Please put our teapots on your website and sell them!

    Me: I would love to sell your fine teapots, but we’ve checked the images you have available on your site, and they don’t meet our minimum standards. We need undecorated images of each style, in each color, in .jpg format. 1200 pixel preferred, 2000 pixel max, 800 pixel absolute min.

    TSSR: But see these images, isn’t what you need (references online images)?

    Me: No, those are thumbnails, only 153 pixels. But! Those images ARE exactly what we need. Can you get exactly those images but in 1200 pixels?

    TSSR: No problem! We’ll do that right away!

    Me : Ok! If you have an FTP site we can pull them from there, or you can FTP to us. Otherwise, you can use Dropbox, but please don’t put individual images up on Dropbox for us to pull. Please zip a folder so we only have to download one thing.

    TSSR: No problem! (few hours later) Here’s the dropbox link!

    And of course, what I find at the Dropbox link is 1 bazillion individual images

    Me: Okay, would you please ask the folks to put all of the images in a folder, ZIP it, and upload the zipped folder to Dropbox so we can download only once.

    TSSR: Ok! (this morning) Here’s the drop box link!

    And, what I find on Dropbox is a .rar, not a .zip. We don’t have a utility to open a .rar and I can’t add programs on our system. After consulting with my IT….

    Me: Ok listen, I need a ZIPPED, .zip, folder please. I can’t open a .rar.

    TSSR: Ok! (few hours later), Here’s the drop box link for a .zip!

    And so I download a 289MB zipped folder, open up and find…….

    Not at all what I need, specified or we discussed.

    head/desk

    9 times out of 10, if a supplier does not have the resources already posted online, this is what happens. (And yes, we’ve a clearly written spec requirements pdf that always goes with any communication. ) But, no problem! Just ask us for what you need!

    2. Tris Prior*

      LOL. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had this exact conversation over the years.

      At least you got actual image files. My favorite is the client who placed all of their images in Excel files and sent them that way. ???

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Ha, well stupid client tricks, we can tell them all day long.

        We do customized teapots so we deal with client art all day long. We’re pretty well prepared to get (whatever) and have to redraw or adjust.

        I have to ask if we ever got client art in Excel, though. That’s impressive!

    3. Snork Maiden*

      Oh I’ve had this exact same conversation! Fortunately I can add programs so 7Zip usually solves this at the .rar stage.

      In some cases, I can use their terrible original images after some editing work. It’s funny how quickly the big files show up once I start quoting on how much Photoshop time I’ll need to bill!

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Yeah, with about 200 users, our IT dept is careful about what can be added, licensing, etc.

        I can open .rar on my personal laptop at home but I wasn’t going that far.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      This just in:

      TSSR: Here’s another try (drop box link)!

      And the results at the link:
      Individual images, no zip. About 60 images covering 12 products (vs the 80 or so products x colors that were expected). And random file formats! Some .jpg, some .png, some .tif.

      Please refer to the top of my post and pass me a cocktail:

      We need undecorated images of each style, in each color, in .jpg format. 1200 pixel preferred, 2000 pixel max, 800 pixel absolute min.

      and

      Otherwise, you can use Dropbox, but please don’t put individual images up on Dropbox for us to pull. Please zip a folder so we only have to download one thing.

      Also please remember THEY asked ME to sell their teapots. This is not a customer!

      1. Ife*

        Let’s have cocktails! I’m not in marketing/art, but I’ve been having this exact conversation with one of our clients. I swear. “Use the X file. Here, I have attached it to the email.” “So, I tried with files Y and Z. Here’s the error message, why didn’t it work?”

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          AM I SPEAKING ENGLISH?

          I mean, it looks like English to me but what if I’ve had a stroke and think I’m speaking English but my words are actually an Indian dialect or something.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Oh and yes, Round 1 on me!

          (at home now and I am indeed off to look for a cocktail)

    5. Lizabeth*

      Any way to talk directly to whomever the sales reps are getting the photos from so you don’t play whack-a-mole? “Most” sales reps I deal with have no clue about resolutions.
      Pass the martini shaker please….

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Right? And why am I doing this when it’s not my job and I have a staff of merchandisers and artists whose job it is?

        Because the guy is my friend who is a multi line rep who reps a line of gorgeous beach towels, and his line got virtually shut out of our new beach towel launch. We brought some of his towels in and did our own photography but we can’t do that with the whole line. My people have moved on and are working on winter now, so I can’t ask anyone who works for me to double back and go through these stupid pet tricks when they’ve already marked the line as “too hard to get images”. I could get a super fast add if I can hand somebody the images neatly organized and ask them to shove it to the top of the online adds.

        The towels are gorgeous and I could sell them right now today. I suppose I could ask online visitors to use their imagination re the depth and beauty. “Please imagine!”

        Anyway so I got HERE by my buddy the TSSR coming in to do an educational session for my sales reps on towels, and then my we go over how few of his products are online and why, and then he says, just give me your guidelines and I’ll have everything over to you in a few hours and then (please loop to top of my first post).

        So sure, Monday I can call the towel art department, which will mean I’ve gone from Not My Job to Really Not My Job to Really Really Really Not My Job. All for friendship and some gorgeous towels.

        1. Lizabeth*

          It will help your company’s bottom line, plus gorgeous towels…but at some point the PIA factor comes into play and it sounds like it has. Be blunt with the rep: unless you supply us exactly what is specified in our guideline PDF, your product will not get sold by us. There is only so much you can do in Photoshop and various 3 party app to increase resolution AND have it look presentable. Is there anyone in the art dept that has a knack for explaining and getting the right images? My success rate is only about 65% and TPTB have learned to accept not quite right images because the effort to get them isn’t worth it. It sometimes veers into teaching a pig to sing…annoys the pig and frustrates you.
          BTW have you tried Hightail to send and receive images? I like it better than Dropbox.

    6. Nicole*

      I had to laugh because we’ve all been there!

      For what it’s worth, when someone sends you a link to a Dropbox folder, you can choose “download as .zip” in the upper right hand corner or “save to my Dropbox” if you too have a Dropbox account.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        NO WAY.

        I hate dropbox so I never looked closely. (I’m an old school FTP’er. These kids today with their new fangled notions. All standing on my lawn!)

        Thanks! :)

  111. Wendy Darling*

    Ack.

    My meeting with my manager yesterday was 90% about 1. how what I was doing could make the company money, and 2. how I have to prove my salary is a worthwhile investment by making the company money. I’m a data analyst and I’m a little peevish that the value of knowing whether the changes you make help or hurt is not self-explanatory — I already found one place where I’m pretty sure a policy change made performance WORSE. But that doesn’t immediately improve margins so it doesn’t count?! Also I’ve been with the company for less than two months, and they haven’t had anyone in my position in recorded history, so I don’t actually anticipate my work having any impact on profits for 3-4 more months because I’m just laying baselines now.

    Today I’m sitting in a meeting that is about 80% about ‘stop using billing codes that aren’t billable to a client’. Even if you’re in meetings that aren’t really related to client work, figure out how to bill it to a client! 1:1 meeting with your manager? Bill it to a client! Troubleshooting your laptop with IT? Bill it to a client!

    If we hadn’t just posted excellent profits I’d think the company was about to go under.

    I’m gradually going from “slightly disillusioned” to “asking friends from old job to tell me if they hear anything” and it’s scary.

    1. enough*

      Unfortunately, there are some companies who just hate overhead. In the early days of computerized engineering design I worked for a company that tended to marginalize those who worked supported the programs and there fore didn’t have billable hours.

    2. Mazzy*

      I don’t like the billing internal work to clients, but maybe I can give you a few pointers since I’ve been doing similar work for so long.

      First of all, most companies do something wrong. You’d be surprised. Maybe a customer isn’t being charged, maybe another isn’t paying but no one knows to follow up since their not showing up on a list. Maybe a customer called to sign up and was added to a mailing list but the automatic letter-generator didn’t print their letter for some reason. Maybe the wrong price was used. Maybe a discount that was promised wasn’t added, and no one noticed, and then the client never used you again. If there are billable hours, maybe the final invoices aren’t correct. If there is no other Analyst, I’m sure no one is analyzing churn. What problems caused customers to not use your services again? I bet you’re company doesn’t even notice that some clients’ billable hours faded out or stopped. Is there some common thread?

  112. How Did You Know?*

    Stay at home parents or former stay at home parents – how did you know it was time to quit working full-time and be a stay-at-home parent?

    I’m recently married and we want to have kids in the next few years. I’m in my mid-to-late 30s, so I would like to have a child sooner rather than later. My husband and I have had lots of discussions about careers and childcare if and when the time comes. Part of me really wants to take a few years off from full-time employment and focus on childcare and my freelance business, but realistically, I don’t know if our family could afford it or not. I’m curious to know how other AAM readers made their decision.

    1. burnout*

      I’ve done both.

      First – can you afford it? That was the big consideration for us. There were times we could afford it. My husband was in the military and we lived on base, so we could. After a few years, he left the service, we moved halfway across the country to be closer to home and family, and we needed two incomes to make it work. So, I went back to work.

      I say we “needed” two incomes because that was our personal choice. I know people who have made the conscious decision to scale back lifestyle and live on much, much less so that they CAN manage on one income. They had a lot less than we did. But they were just as happy, if not happier.

      IMO, if you can afford it – or if you can make lifestyle adjustments that you can live with so that you can afford it – be a stay at home parent. You only get that chance once in a child’s life. It goes by super fast and then its gone. There is plenty of time to rejoin the workforce once they start school.

      Also, don’t leave out the possibility that Dad could be the stay-at-homer. Sometimes it makes more sense financially.

    2. Student*

      Counterpoint:

      Stay at work if you can afford to.

      You working brings in more money, which you can invest back into your kid if you so desire. College fund, your own retirement fund so they won’t be looking after you unless absolutely necessary, books and other mental enrichment, sports and other physical enrichment, healthy food, housing in a good school district. Every year you take off work makes it harder for you to get back into the workforce later. Every year you take off work makes your long-term earning potential shrink; even if you’re barely breaking even on childcare costs now, your accumulated raises will mean you earn significantly more down the line. Rich people’s kids are better off on average in large part simply because they have money, which smooths out crises that disrupt kids’ lives and provides access to more resources for the kids.

      Those years are important to your kid’s development – but they don’t require deeply personal intervention, they require the kind of work that any reasonable person can do, but people with a certain mindset/ skill set / approach to life do much better than others. Screen carefully for for good childcare, and then go for it. They might even do significantly better than you at early-years parenting, if they’ve got prior experience that you lack and if you aren’t a “baby person” but they are. That can be hard to admit, but it really shouldn’t be. If we think childcare is so very important, then we should be ready to admit that not everyone makes a fantastic caretaker to a baby or toddler. I certainly wouldn’t be a good person to stay-at-home parent; I have had many men tell me, unsolicited, that they know they’d make terrible day-to-day caregivers for very young children for various reasons. More women should own up to that too, and connect their kids with good childcare instead of feeling like being a “good mother” is some critical way of justifying their own existence in their family. Women (and men) who love childcare should absolutely go for it and be stay-at-home parents, but they should go for it because it is something they are good at and really want to do.

      You are undecided, which suggests to me that you aren’t convinced that being a stay-at-home mother is something you’d be fantastic at. You are talking about focusing on your freelance work at the same time; you can’t really focus on freelance work while caring for a very young child and do well at both, so maybe this is a bit of an unrealistic expectation or more evidence that you should go with whichever thing you’re good at instead of trying to do both.

    3. SAHM*

      I was pregnant with our second child and my income wouldn’t cover the cost of two kids in childcare. So we were planning on finding something else while on maternity leave (either hubby new job or me new job), except I got laid off while on maternity leave so I ended up collecting unemployment and right when unemployment ended hubby got his dream job. That was 4 years ago this Aug, he’s been promoted out of his dream job but I have to say the company he works for is a dream company.

  113. Allison*

    I may have a nosy new work neighbor. She started a couple weeks ago and sits next to me, although we don’t report to the same manager. I often notice her staring at my computer screen, and I’m usually doing something productive, but like the average office worker sometimes I’m reading a news article, or commenting here, or doing something that probably doesn’t look like work. Then the other day she asked “so . . . what do you actually do here?” and when I explained she went “oh, okay . . . hmmm . . .”

    And today she has a meeting with my manager.

    Is it paranoid of me to think she might be reporting on my work habits? A part of me wonders if she’s just trying to gauge what’s acceptable and what isn’t, so that’s possible, but I’m a little worried here.

    1. Ell like L*

      I think Allison’s direct language would work well here. After she does it you could say, “Jane, I’ve noticed you often stare or make comments about what I’m working on. Why is that?” and when she (probably) just says “Oh I couldn’t help but glance” or “I’m just curious” you could say “It makes me a bit uncomfortable when you stare at my screen, I’d really appreciate it if you could stop doing that. Thanks!”

      As for the manager meeting, is probable she’s meeting with your manager about something else? Could you just bring this issue up with your manager? “I’ve noticed Jane makes comments about my computer screen often, I’ve spoken directly to her about it, but I wanted to mention it in case it comes up.”

      2. Allison*

        She doesn’t usually make comments, just that one time. But often, as she’s getting up or sitting down, my screen will catch her eye and she’ll just stare at it, as though she’s trying to get a clear idea of what exactly I’m doing at any given time. And I worry that if I ask her to stop, it’ll sound like I’m trying to hide something.

        1. Ell like L*

          Gotcha. I think if you just ask in a genuinely curious tone why she often stares at your screen you’ll get an answer that you can respond to without feeling like you’re hiding something.

          1. Allison*

            I guess I worry that either she’s appointed herself a hall monitor, or since she sits near me my manager might have enlisted her to keep an eye on my day-to-day activities. I’d like to think my manager doesn’t care as long as I’m turning out good work, but who knows.

        2. Menacia*

          Can you adjust your screen so she can’t see it, or get a “glare” screen that doubles as a privacy screen? That would annoy the living crap out of me, and I’d call her out every time she does it.

    2. LisaLee*

      I had a coworker like that. I liked the polite “Do you need something?” when I caught him staring at my workstation. And when he said no, I just looked confused and said, “Oh, it seemed like you were looking for something over here.” After a couple times, he stopped.

  114. Caledonia*

    I sat my OU module exam today. I do not feel I did well – I’m not doing the whole self-deprecation thing here – and I was also rejected for a job I interviewed for. I got into the top 3 candidates, but that doesn’t pay my bills. No interviews lined up, either. Sigh.

    1. JaneB*

      Awww, sorry to hear that! Here’s hoping next week goes better – and that your weekend has chocolate/wine/your cheer up treat of choice in it.

  115. Charlotte Collins*

    I just got contacted for additional interviews in the process I’m currently in. Wish me luck!

    Alison – Your book was a great resource. I think it really helped me when talking to the hiring manager. (My first Skype interview – I was nervous but ended up thinking it combined the advantages of phone and F2F interviews without a lot of the disadvantages.)

  117. Gene*

    I’m not sure about the article linked in my reply.

    Is “Why shouldn’t I hire you?” your classic gotcha question, or does it actually give useful info?

    3. Ell like L*

      Such a terrible question. And that article about pulling out people’s humility and self-awareness by asking something they feel uncomfortable responding to? Ick.

      All the article is saying is that the guy wants to know an honest weakness – a better way to ask the question that I think AAM has mentioned a few times is “What are some areas your former managers have told you you need to work on?”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t see what useful information it could give. If the candidate didn’t think she should be hired, she wouldn’t have applied…

    5. Not Karen*

      “Because you’d be repeatedly bombarded with me asking for more work to do, because I work far more efficiently than anyone expects.”

      But seriously, that’s a terrible question.

  118. Banana Pants*

    I am a newly single parent looking to change jobs, and enter a completely different area of my field more specific to my expertise. I would be considered entry level to the newer area of my field if it matters. The one thing I have in my current position is flexibility. I essentially set my own hours. If I need to take off, then it doesn’t impact anyone but me. I recently had to take 2 days off due to both my kids being sick. I realize that would not fly in many places. What are some sick childcare backup plans other people have? My family cannot help, and my ex is not very involved. I want to be proactive and have these things in place so I don’t get blindsided at a new job. They are 10 and 2 years old in case that changes people’s answers.

    1. Laura*

      You could start forming a relationship with a nanny/babysitter who you can call on an as-needed basis. Obviously you’d have to find someone comfortable taking care of sick children, but I think many people in that profession would be, since it’s part of having a kid.

    2. Jean*

      Can you talk to other parents of kids with similar ages; other single parents; coworkers; other friends & acquaintances; and/or people with whom you share non-work activities (I realize single parents don’t have much free time, but is your 10-year-old on a team? Do you belong to a neighborhood group, congregation, political party…?). If there’s a college near you with an Early Childhood Education or Education department, see if there’s a listserv or other way to get an ad out to the students.

      I hear your pain! It can be an awful scramble to locate reliable sick-child child care. That said, where there’s a will, there’s a way. You’re not alone in having this challenge. Good wishes to you in your search for your solution.

  119. FriendofaTG*

    I have a transgender friend who transitioned and legally changed her name as a teenager (with her parents’ help of course). She saw a job application that wants to know other names the applicant has been known by, but doesn’t want to out herself unless absolutely necessary. I pointed her to a question that Alison answered back in 2013, which said that (with rare exceptions like a security clearance) that employers wouldn’t care about knowing a name you used only as a child (Alison also explained the reasoning behind why an employer may ask such a question):
    https://www.askamanager.org/2013/03/short-answer-sunday-7-short-answers-to-7-short-questions-32.html

    My advice to that transwoman is that if she feels that leaving the question blank is not a good idea but wants her transgender status to remain confidential if possible, is to either 1) Contact someone from HR in that company before filling out the application and ask whether or not you need to disclose a former name changed at age (insert) and would not have any job references, degrees/diplomas, criminal history, etc. under that name (from my experience with a non-transgender early-in-life name change what Alison said will probably be right) or 2) Use the “answer the intent of the question” strategy that I’ve seen suggested with other inquiries that when asked too broadly may result in discrimination issues; here you could use it by putting something down like “none that relevant records are under” (but only if you can honestly say so!).

    Any thoughts on my advice? I’ve seen other transgender-related issues being described on here, and in one of the comments someone brought up the name change and background check issue (but since the subjects there transitioned well after coming of age their former name would probably be relevant to record-checking and they’d have to unfortunately disclose it, but it’s different here given the age of transition and name change).

    1. MMSW*

      She needs to check the laws of her state/state where potential employer is located in before asking or disclosing anything. In many states it is legal to discriminate against LGBT people. Her local ACLU chapter might have some resources, or the ACLU LGBT Project, also the Transgender Law Center, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Transgender Equality may be of help.

    2. Ell like L*

      Ugh, this kind of forced outing is terrible. I think your advice is spot-on though. I would worry about #2 unless she changed her name before the age of 15 or so and depending on what state she lives in. If she lives in a state with protections based on gender identity I would think it wouldn’t be a problem. But if not, there’s a small but non-zero chance that she risks HR finding out and using that omission as an excuse to fire when they’re really just bigots.

    3. Ad Astra*

      My stepfather adopted me as a child and changed my last name when I was 9ish, and I’ve stopped mentioning that on job applications because I know that nothing relevant to my background check is tied to that name. So I’m leaning toward advising your friend not to disclose the former name.

    4. FriendofaTG*

      Thanks for the replies so far!

      I see five general scenarios for transgender workers based on the age and timing of transition as applicable for typical employers (in order from least to most discreet-able):
      1. Transitioning “on the job” when you were hired before – obviously the employer is aware, so it depends on their policies, discrimination laws, and how they react.
      2. Applying for a job before legal changes are made – There is the debate on whether or not a résumé must have your legal name, but nonetheless unless it’s an “under the table” job they’ll need to eventually know your legal name for tax purposes.
      3. Applying for a job within several years of an adult transition – If the employer wants to do any kind of background check, as a practical matter you’ll probably have to explain your name/gender change (and they’ll likely find out about it if you don’t).
      4. Applying for a job where you transitioned many years ago or around age 18 – If the only issue would be records that theoretically could but are unlikely to be checked, such as decades-old employment or high school once you graduated college, you may be able to dodge outing yourself by saying that you’ll explain later if necessary and/or (as a variant of #1 in the OP) ask beforehand if a name changed x number of years ago needs to be disclosed or not.
      5. Applying for a job where you transitioned legally as a child or teen – What has been said here.

      Note that if you have ANY (unsealed/unexpunged) criminal history (no matter how minor the offense) from before your name change, you won’t be able to get better than #3 without risking a material omission (and depending on the offense getting from #2 to #3 in the courts may be harder).

      1. FriendofaTG*

        I should’ve said “WHEN you transitioned” and not “where you transitioned” in #4 and 5. (If they transitioned at an employer and then later applied again they’d probably find out from their own records!)

  120. Nameless*

    Does anyone have any coping mechanisms for not caring as much about work? I am finding that I am having to shift my priorities at work – when I was interviewed and hired this role was sold to me as a role that will grow with the company and that I should take ownership of my department and work hard to innovate.

    After a year it’s pretty clear that was all bluster, and that management would much prefer me to keep my head down and do my job instead of coming up for ways to innovate and make my department and role better/more efficient etc.

    I am very driven and have some great ideas for this company, but if no one wants to hear it, that is their prerogative. I am now focusing more on treating this job differently in my mind – have any of you had any success with that? What should I do to change the way I approach this?

    1. Jennifer*

      I remind myself that nobody cares about my thoughts, feelings, or opinions–I’m just here to process paperwork and they are happy with things as they are. Believe me, the “not caring” will eventually come upon you. You just have to start learning how to release your anger and frustration and accept that this is how things are. When an idea comes to mind, kill it, and again, remind yourself that they are happy with how things are.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Find a different job?
      I really can’t recommend caring less about your job. Perhaps you can find things they do care about? Or perhaps you can go back to the people who interviewed you and ask what happened here.

    3. NicoleK*

      Do you see yourself there for the long term? If yes, then resigned yourself to the fact that your job isn’t what was sold to you. And things probably aren’t going to change. Put your energy toward doing your job, things that you can change, and things you have control over.

      If you’re not willing to do that, not able to do that, or don’t see this company/position as long term prospect then try to stick around for at least 2 years and move on.

  121. Bagworm*

    Anyone with recommendations on learning resources (preferably free or low cost) for SQL Server 2012 Report Builder 3.0. Thanks!

  122. Crylo Ren*

    Not a question, just a bit of a vent.
    It’s the last day for many of my colleagues at my previous employer (mass layoffs due to HQ relocation).
    I’d already moved on earlier this year, but I’m aware of how things have been going through Facebook updates and the like. Even though I’m no longer there, it’s still bittersweet to see all the updates and photos this past week reminiscing about good times and showing the emptiness of our office. I didn’t think it would affect me this much, but I guess I’m feeling some version of survivor’s guilt.

  123. Jazzyisanonymous*

    How do you reconcile what you’re good at and what you want to do being two different things? All though college I took creative classes, and hoped that I did would end up in a creative field. I was a journalist for a short period of time, but it didn’t work out.

    Right after college I kind of fell into the insurance industry and found that I’m very good at it. Complex insurance regulations make sense to me, and I’ve had an executive at my company tell me she’s impressed at how thoroughly I understand policies and laws.

    To be honest, I never thought I’d be in an industry like this or working in a cube. How do you deal with not being good at things you like?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Hmm, I’m curious about why you phrased the question this way! I’m not sure that it follows that you’re actually not good at the work you were doing in a creative field. There are lots of reasons why your career in journalism might not have worked out at that time, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not good at creative pursuits in general, or that you wouldn’t be able to secure a successful career in journalism at another time in your life.

      I think there’s a separate issue of whether you can successfully monetize your skills, especially in a creative area. Journalism is a mess and lots of great writers aren’t successful at making money doing it. So maybe there’s a question here of whether the things you like are likely to make you a living.

      It sounds like you’ve found something that you’re at least satisfied doing. There’s still space in your life to do other things, even if you don’t get paid for it.

      Taking your question on its face though, assuming that you’re actually not particularly good at things you like, I think you have two options: either commit some time and effort to continuing to develop those skills, or commit some time and effort to realigning your expectations and finding satisfaction in the doing of it, rather than the external or objective evaluation of it.

    2. Mark in Cali*

      I have the same problem with a theatre degree and 12 years of formal piano training. Took me time realize that I was ok at all of those things (which I really liked), but certainly not good enough to make a career.

      I get through it by reminding myself that though I have a standard for myself, others may not. I am not looking for sympathy when I say that I wasn’t good enough to make it in the theatre as an actor or a musician (I did music directing for a while) and that sentiment comes from the idea that there’s a standard for myself that I’ve tried to achieve for years but never made it. Yes, I know we never arrive and it’s always a journey, but at a certain point you want to feel like you have some kind of handle or mastery in a skill. There are plenty of others out there that may be just as bad, if not worse, than I am, but some of those people don’t have a standard for themselves. Just doing it, good or bad, is enough for them. They are also the people will to put up with the bullshit, the favoritism, and rejection and all the other things that are related to creative professions.

      On the other hand, I’m a bit jealous of those people I criticize for not having a standard. They can do it, good or bad, and still enjoy it. Which makes me sometimes think I didn’t like it enough and I just convinced myself to like it for whatever reason.

      So that’s how I deal with it. Plus a little chip on the shoulder gives me just enough sass.

      1. Artemesia*

        I used to advise college students who had artistic pretensions but little talent; several are now working in the business side of opera companies, museums and such. Loving the arts but having good business skills is a great combination for many people. These people minored in voice or studio art but majored in a program that helped them build people and business skills. They then did internships with artistic setting related to their passion and for many of them made careers in these fields.

    3. Jaguar*

      My passion is narrative writing, but I’m no good at it. I’ve always taken ridiculously-easily to computer programming, but I have no real enthusiasm or passion for it.

      I don’t think there’s a reconciliation to be had. You have to make a choice of how much you’re willing to put up with to do what you want or how much you’re willing to put up with in a job you don’t like to live the rest of the life how you want. For me, I knew that having to write what other people want, having deadlines, hustling to stay in a competitive and poorly paid industry etc. would turn what I like into a nightmare, so I do what I’m good at, take what pride in that I can, and go home and never look at it again.

      Not everybody gets to do what they want all the time. Learning that is part of becoming an adult, to be honest.

      1. Jaguar*

        If it helps, though, there really are people that aren’t any good at anything, as much as we don’t want to acknowledge that. If you’ve found something you’re good at, even if it’s something you don’t particularly like, you’re better off that _a lot_ of people.

    4. periwinkle*

      Just because the journalism field didn’t work out on your first attempt doesn’t mean you’re not good at it or at creative pursuits. But here’s a thought… you’ve obviously got a knack for understanding complex regulations. That’s a career path worth building. It’s also a career path that ought to be well-compensated enough to allow you to enroll in writing retreats, spend a week painting in France, buy the spiffy welding gear for making sculpture out of old beer kegs, or do whatever other creative pursuits interest you.

      And hey, you aren’t limited to one career your entire life. Maybe you’ll find your creative niche later.

      2. Artemesia*

        My husband was a lawyer who sang in the opera (small roles and chorus); his good friend was a lawyer who did work for theatrical companies as part of his practice and directed plays in community theater. There is lots of room for amateurs in creative fields who have lucrative day jobs.

  124. Lizabeth*

    This is a rant more than anything else, however, I’d like to hear about coping suggestions since my forehead is close to permanently being dented from hitting the keyboard.

    #1 Coworker comes to me and says there’s something wrong with the sample folder size because they aren’t fitting in the box to ship out like they have in the past. After stating that the sample folder size is still the same 12 x16 size to her, she brings the box she’s trying to fit them in and says, “Oh, this is the wrong box size.” Thunk goes the forehead…

    #2 Same coworker later asks me why I’m second guessing myself and sending her a certain email. I go “what email are you talking about?” She says email xyz and oh! she’s just cc’d on the email, that I had answered our other coworker who had emailed both of us about xyz. Thunk goes the forehead again…

    1. SophiaB*

      Is she tired/pressured lately? I know my brain falls over when I’ve been working too hard and it’s not until I start explaining a problem to someone else that I spot the obvious solution. Maybe ask her to try writing out the problem before involving you in case the answer becomes clear in the course of explaining it.

  125. Chameleon*

    Two weeks until my PhD defense! I’m applying for teaching jobs at various colleges in the area and I just came up against what may be a huge hurdle:

    After applying for a lecturer position, the dean wrote me back asking me to send course evals. However, I don’t have a lot of experience, just 3 classes. For two, I was technically only TA, though I ran my own review/lab sessions. I got to see the evals for the course as a whole but I have no access to them now. Moreover, for one of the classes. while many expressed that my sessions were good the evals overall were pretty scathing (the prof wasn’t that great). The third class I was the teacher of record, but it was a summer program for youths and they didn’t do course evals.

    TL;DR–I have no access to any course evals and I don’t know that they’d be useful even if I did. Is there any way to overcome this when looking for an adjunct job?

    2. Ultraviolet*

      I’ve never applied for a teaching job, though I was once on a hiring committee for a teaching-focused tenure-track job. Having disclaimed that, my first thought is that someone in your department could probably get you access to the evals for the courses you TAed. I’d start by asking the office admin staff, and if they couldn’t help I’d ask the professor I TAed for. (And if that professor isn’t very responsive, I’d ask a more helpful TT professor for advice.) If you’re in a grad employee union, it’s also possible that you have a contractual right to access to the evals and the union would help you get it.

      You could also ask the summer program staff if they received any feedback on your teaching that you could use in your job application materials. And they might be able to provide a letter of reference, or a supplementary letter if you already have your letter writers picked out.

      As for whether the TA course evals would help–I guess my reaction there is that if the dean asked for them, you’re probably better off if you’re able to send them than if not. I don’t think the hiring committee would hold it against you that the students didn’t like the course as a whole, or the professor. If many students said your sessions were good, that’s definitely better than nothing.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Ask the departmental admin where you TA’d is s/he has them and would be willing to get you copies for your application materials. Then again, if the prof wasn’t great, they may not be helpful. Alternatively, you could write the dean and say that the course evals are for the prof, but that you were a TA for Section X (sometimes the evals have a spot for students to comment on the section TA). Are you in touch with any of the students for your section? Would any of them be willing to write a brief note about their experience in the section?

      All that said, I think it’s going to come down to how important the dean thinks it is that you have solo-taught your own classes.

      1. Artemesia*

        A halfway competent department would have evaluated TAs separately or have TA questions on the evaluation and provide summaries to the TAs. They are in the business of preparing people to get college jobs and requiring this is commonplace. If there are specific questions related to TAs on your eval then see if you can get summaries of those. The department has to provide this material for professor evaluations when they are up for review — they should be able to do it for you.

  126. fluxinsight*

    I have a fashion and the office question: I currently work in DC as a lawyer. The organization that I’ve worked for a year and a half is a nonprofit. I tend to be on the formal side of business casual and go all out business formal when I have to be somewhere. (I’m a walking add for Ann Taylor.) However, I stick out visually in the office. Most of the women that I work with look unkemp (like they rolled out of bed) or frumpy (like they don’t care). I really do believe that what you look like and whether or not you visually fit in with your coworkers matter. However, most of my coworkers look unprofessional. What do I do?

    1. Laurel Gray*

      Keep dressing the way you do and being mindful of your appearance. I’m another walking AT ad and I work in a business office and will be moving to a business-somewhat-casual office in the upcoming weeks. 80% of my work wardrobe is Ann Taylor. 10% is Loft (Friday clothes) and the other 10% is a mix from other stores. My hair is styled every day, I wear light make up daily. My colleagues do too but if they didn’t I wouldn’t stop. We are all client facing so management would immediately step in if we were coming in unkempt.

    2. SophiaB*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with looking professional, even if other people aren’t dressed the same. That said, this is probably not the office for red lipstick and Louboutins. If you feel comfortable in what you’re wearing and it’s not over the top, I’d keep wearing it.

      Do the other women in the office work at desk-based roles? I know that when I’m drowning in project work and hiding in manufacturing where no-one sees me, I’m more likely to be found in flat shoes and jumpers, but when I’m running training or talking to clients, I’m always in a dress and heels with my lipstick on. This could be role-based preference – are there other women in your role? How do they dress?

      1. fluxinsight*

        Our office is comprised of admin staff, outreach staff who work in the community to conduct public education, and lawyers. I think that it’s normal for our secretary or outreach staff to be less formal than the lawyers. However, everyone looks terrible, even if they’re meeting with high-level federal officials. The only one who dresses similarly to me is our executive director. He wears a suit almost everyday. Our communications director also looks nice all the time, but her role is considered a creative one, so she has a lot of leeway to dress in trendy clothing (like zebra patterned pants).

    3. Jillociraptor*

      It sounds like you’re dressing appropriately for your office, so I don’t think there’s any reason to change what you’re doing. Even if you don’t necessarily visually fit in with your coworkers, you totally fit the expected appearance of someone in a DC law firm.

      Are you getting any feedback or experiencing anything that makes you think you might be violating a norm of some kind? Or just struck by the difference between what you wear and what your coworkers wear?

      1. fluxinsight*

        I think it’s a combination of things. I wonder whether being so obviously different on this one issue is really an indicator of me not fitting in with the culture of the office (there are bigger issues with the place that I work that I’m not mentioning here). Also some people have said comments about my hair or my clothes that I’ve never really thought about. For example, I normally style my hair before I leave for work because it’s part of my routine. However, one person remarked about me blow drying my hair as if it was an amazing thing. So, in this type of situation, I’m at a loss on how to respond.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          I think you’re overthinking this. It sounds like you’re well within the realm of normal, and can reply to comments like that with a breezy, “Yeah, I’ve always done it this way!” or “Yeah, I enjoy it!”

          “Walking Ann Taylor ad” is very unlikely to strike anyone as abnormal, so unless your hair or makeup is really done up, you’re fine and anyone who doesn’t think so has their own issues.

          1. Anon Moose*

            Yeah, commenting on someone’s hair or clothes when they look nice is generally just… Being nice.

    5. Anon Moose*

      I’m familiar with nonprofit law and DC. I think it’s down to office norms- the people you work with are dressing appropriately for the office culture. No one is going to care if you’re dressed up more (though they may ask whether you’re going to court). Is their “unprofessional” (to you) dress affecting you, the organization or clients in any way? What exactly is your concern? If no, then I would stop worrying about it. Nonprofit lawyers are not paid like big law lawyers and outside of court generally do not dress as formally as you would in a for profit firm.

    6. Snazzy Hat*

      Keep dressing the way you do!
      a) On my first or second day at my first office job, I was informed that fridays are casual. I immediately asked, “do we *have* to dress casually, or can I still wear a suit if I want?” I participated sometimes; a pair of flare jeans with a fancy top.
      b) In the last few years of my father’s job before retirement, friday wasn’t just casual day, it was Wear The Polo With Our Logo day. He hated with a firey passion that he couldn’t just wear a suit like he did every other day.
      c) When I worked at a warehouse, I occasionally had my own Formal Friday. I would wear a 3/4-sleeve blouse, dress pants, and flats while toodling along on my forklift truck.

      And now, a relevant dialogue from The Simpsons:
      Farmer 1: Well, well. Look at the city slicker pulling up in his fancy German car.
      Homer: {confused} This car was made in Guatemala.
      Farmer 2: Well, pardon us, Mr. Gucci Loafers.
      Homer: {baffled} I bought these shoes from a *hobo!*
      Farmer 1: Well, la-de-da, Mr. Park Avenue Manicure.
      Homer: {admires his hands} {turns nose up} I’m sorry, I believe in good grooming.

    7. BRR*

      Unless you’re way over dressed keep doing what you do. I’m in a similar situation. Many people wear jeans and sneaker. I am in dress pants, dress shoes, and a button down shirt without a tie every day. Part of this is that my previous job was much more formal so I have more business clothes than casual clothes but I also feel more professional. Now if I wore a suit and tie every day that would be too much but if you’re just a step or two above then keep on doing what you feel comfortable in.

    8. MoinMoin*

      Keep doing what you do! I’m one of the unkempt ones (everyday the same black flats, dark wash jeans, black V-neck, rarely makeup, hair dried naturally or in a ponytail) and you’re my idol. I love how you dress and I definitely take note and want to be more like you. And how you dress takes the pressure off me feeling weird or out of place if I ever try to up my game a little, which is good, because I clearly don’t need more barriers to dressing well than I already have.

  127. SophiaB*

    I’m so glad it’s Friday, it’s been a long week. I’m wondering if anyone could offer some experience/advice for me?

    I’m currently a project controller for a consultancy team, and I pick up most of their admin on the side. It’s an OK job, but I’ve been stagnating for a while, and my boss has a tendency to use me as her PA. One of my tasks was to find a better way of managing our resourcing, so I went and spoke to our Change Manager and his team, who were implementing new software to cover just that.

    Long story short, I wound up seconded onto the Change Management team and have been working insane hours to get the project live. I am having the time of my life. I’ve found my niche. I love this role, I love this team, I am working hard and being challenged every step of the way. I had forgotten life could be like this. The Change Manager, the boss, and the 2 i/c all want to keep me. I’ve really bonded with the team and they’d love to have me on board.

    What do I do about the Project Controller job that I no-longer want? The team I actually belong to have always been good to me, but I just don’t fit. I feel awful about wanting to leave them, but the thought of going back to sitting there day after day makes me feel physically sick. Do I need to feel guilty here? Any advice for how I have this conversation with my boss?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      This is so fantastic, SophiaB! That feeling of flow is so energizing!

      Are your boss and team for the Project Controller job basically normal? Any basically normal boss is going to be thrilled for you to have found another opportunity that gets you really excited. You don’t have to feel guilty AT ALL.

      When you sit down with your boss, you can frame it by saying how grateful you are that she gave you the opportunity to try out this new area of work, which you’ve found to be a really fantastic fit for your skills and interests. Then mention that the Change Management team has offered you a role (right?) and that you’d really like to take it. So how can you be helpful in offboarding your work as you transition?

      Congrats on finding something that gets you so fired up!

      1. SophiaB*

        Oh, they actually are basically normal. I keep forgetting this, because my boss before this was decidedly NOT normal.

        Thank you, that gives me a much better perspective. I’m just so happy, I know I need to have The Chat, it’s just a bit intimidating. But you’re right, my boss has always been good to me, why would she not be now.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          I completely understand the impulse. These things always feel much more challenging in your head than in real life. Good luck with The Chat and good luck with the new role!

  128. AdAgencyChick*

    For those of us who are working with a PTO bank (as against designated sick/vacation days) AND are not allowed rollover of days from year to year — how do you plan your PTO?

    I’ve never worked at an agency that did not allow ANY rollover before and I’m trying to figure out how many days to leave for December, given that so many people take significant amounts of time off in December (gee, management, maybe that’s due to the no-rollover policy?!) and my boss won’t allow too many people to take off at the same time. I’m prodding my direct reports to use their time earlier in the year, of course, but I expect to be somewhat limited in my choice of days in December.

    I rarely get sick, but I feel like if I use up all of my days before December, that is BEGGING the universe to rain the common cold down upon me. I also believe that if you end the year with an unused PTO balance that can’t be rolled over, you have lost the game.

    1. Ad Girl*

      Our PTO is the same. Do you know your boss well enough to either know or ask how much time they usually allow off for the holidays? For me, I know that my boss wants at least one person there the last two weeks of the year, so we can usually either take the week leading up to Christmas or the week after leading up to the new year.

      We get Christmas Eve + Day after Christmas, so I usually save 4 days to cover the rest of one of those weeks and then work with my team to figure out who is taking what week. If I happen to get sick and need to take a day, it is a bummer to lose one day of that week off, but I know it is not the end of the world. I also know if I really wanted to, my boss would probably let me take that day unpaid to get the whole week.

    2. BRR*

      Can you book maybe two or three days in December that you don’t actually need to take off? Then if you need one of the emergency days you can just not take it in December. I know this part is more of a long shot but can you push to change the policy. How people, as in those who have the power to change this horrible policy, can’t figure out it’s not working is so surprising to me.

    3. lfi*

      i am honestly just stockpiling it all. we have a rolling balance, so i figure as long as i have some to fall back on i’m ok.

      i am taking 4 days in august.. for the thanksgiving holiday i will use a floating holiday to travel. the december holidays are pretty strange for us timing-wise, i don’t anticipate having to use a lot then. i’m more concerned about the potential for doctor’s appointments and illnesses if i get pregnant in the next few months.

  129. Anon Moose*

    I’m involved in the hiring process for two positions at my job. I posted them on a college alumni group to let new grads know about them. I’ve had a couple try to reach out about the job and ask for tips, which is great normally but I’ll be one of the interviewers. What do I tell them?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Normally I’d be happy to help you out, but since I’m one of the interviewers for this position, I don’t think it would be appropriate.”

    2. PackersFan*

      Any chance you can ask a co-worker who isn’t involved in the hiring process reach out to them and at least answer some of their questions?

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are they asking for tips, or for info about the job? If tips, I definitely agree that you should explain you’re one of the interviewers and so really can’t act in that capacity. But if they’re asking for info and they appear to be strong candidates, you can talk to them if you want to. (That’s part of recruiting, in fact; you want to cultivate potentially strong people.)

  130. LizB*

    My team (4 people at my level + our manager) would like to do some kind of low-pressure team bonding thing this month, since we work outside the office most of the time and rarely get to hang out and chat. One of my coworkers will be observing Ramadan starting on Monday, so we need to find something to do that doesn’t involve food or drink and isn’t too physically taxing. Any ideas?

    1. Laura*

      Could you all go see a movie or attend a lecture? For something less formal, maybe mini golf?

    2. the.kat*

      Pottery painting. If there’s a place around you that does one of those pottery or canvas painting classes, they can be very relaxing. My family does them a lot just to hang out and chat.

  131. Lily Evans*

    Has there ever been a thread where commenters had the chance to talk about interesting jobs they’ve held, or just generally the path that led them to their current career? I just love the interviews that Alison does with rare jobs and hearing stories about non-traditional career paths like Lillian McGee’s husband way upthread. I’d read stories all day about how people ended up in the jobs they have, even if they’re totally run-of-the-mill positions.

        1. Lily Evans*

          That’s so cool! And literally posted about a month before I started reading this blog, I just barely missed it!

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I am 100% serious when I say that my husband chose many of his jobs PURELY for the opportunity to drive a favorite childhood vehicle. He’s done airplane (forgot to mention he did aviation in college), fire truck, ambulance and freight train. Not sure what else there is. Garbage truck? Maybe in another year and a half…

      1. Lily Evans*

        I mean it’s not the worst career-choosing strategy I’ve heard of. If you have to get a job, why not fulfill a childhood dream at the same time?

        1. TootsNYC*

          Does he chose his wine by the picture on the label?

          (disclosure: I do. And when I mentioned it to a friend during a visit to a wine shop, the proprietor overheard and said, “If you don’t have any other criteria, it’s as good a reason as any.”)

          1. Lillian McGee*

            No, but I do! That and the price (not too high, not too low…) Mr. McGee actually does a lot of research before he makes the leap!

  132. Caledonia*

    Another thing, even though I already know the answer. Last week I lamented that I applied for a job and was auto-rejected for not meeting the essential criteria (I don’t have a degree until next year). This week another job with the same essential req was posted. Is there any point to me applying? (I suspect not)

    1. Laura*

      No. If you don’t meet requirements listed as “essential,” you’ll get rejected.

  133. learningToCode*

    This may be more about apartments than work, but when can someone with a lease job hunt?

    My lease ends at the end of every year, and then I have to sign a lease for the upcoming year by the end of November… so I only really see this working where if I wanted to leave my current job I’d need an offer by mid-November and start at the start of January, right?

    Probably obvious that this is my first job out of schooling, so I don’t know how this all works. I lack a driver’s license and access to public transit, so I’ve always assumed I’ll have to move when I leave here.

    1. Lillian McGee*

      Depends on state and local laws, but if you had to move for work mid-lease, you could probably sublet it. Kind of a hassle, but not worth turning down a viable job offer for!

    2. Charlotte*

      First thing is to check your lease. They typically include some kind of clause on breaking the lease early (with penalties, etc.). I had one lease where I had to pay an extra month’s rent to break it early and another where I had to pay rent until they found my replacement (which took a month and I knew it would since I lived in a high-demand area/unit). Both of those penalties were written into my leases.

      1. And Peggy!*

        I had to pay two months’ rent and it was awful. I naively assumed that life happens! Landlords surely understand that! Hahahaha… nope. At least I didn’t have to pay the rest of the lease I guess.

      2. Lillian McGee*

        Right, also it is not uncommon for a landlord to have a duty to mitigate written into the law, where if you break the lease without legal justification the landlord must make reasonable efforts to find a new tenant. In Chicago, you are only liable for rent during the time that there is no tenant plus advertising costs (unless the landlord tries real hard and can’t find anyone–then you’re on the hook for the balance of the lease).

    3. Not Karen*

      Depending on your landlord, lease, and location, options may include:
      – subletting after you leave
      – lease transfer to a new tenant that you would find
      – leaving but continuing to pay rent until the landlord finds a new tenant (which might not happen)
      – leaving but paying rent on the rest of your lease
      – paying a penalty to break the lease early
      – if you have a really nice landlord and explain your situation, they might let you go without penalty

    4. The IT Manager*

      Or, if possible, go month to month when you lease ends and you’re job hunting.

      You can break your lease, but there are consequences. you need to know them to make an informed decision.

    5. neverjaunty*

      Check with your local tenants’ rights organization. Landlord/tenant law is so very specific to where you live (even depending on the specific city in places).

  134. Robbenmel*

    At OldJob, I was an exec admin at a medium sized non-profit, where I had worked for 3 and a half years. The last six months I was there, my husband, who was already disabled, became very seriously ill. He was in the hospital three different times, in and out of ICU, and in medical rehab for more than two months.

    When it became apparent how long he would be hospitalized the first time, I talked to my manager (CEO) and HR (whom I also supported) about possible intermittent FMLA. It was…nonverbally discouraged, I guess you could say. So I decided to suck it up and do the best I could. I literally lived in the hospital and rehab alongside him, bathing in a sink and sleeping on a blow-up mattress, but maintaining appearances and working my buns off at work. I did miss four days in the first week he was sick and three or four days later, and I took a week of (approved) vacation when he first came home from rehab.

    My review came up toward the end of this period, with both CEO and HR. During it, they praised my work, including pointing out that I had saved the organization hundreds of dollars in graphic design services by doing things myself, but came down hard on me for the times I had missed. An example, from HR (paraphrased, but exactly her point): “Robbenmel, remember the day you called me from the ER while I was on vacation cooking my toes at the beach? And you were really upset because you’d just been told your husband was extremely critically ill? And even though you were so upset, you gave me a list of things on your desk that needed to be dealt with? Well, I came in that next Monday and found you had forgotten one of those things. I had to make 20 copies for my training class that morning. And even though I never mentioned it at the time, that was unacceptable. So instead of a raise of X%, which was set by our board and which everyone else is getting, you will be getting a raise of X/3%.”

    I nodded, listened, signed the review. And thought about that conversation, a lot. And found myself another job (much, much closer to home.) I cleaned out my office and documented the heck out of that job.

    They hired another admin. For the next eight months, I responded to the new admin’s texts, phone calls, and emails. I offered advice, tips, and directions. I told her where to find things, how to operate equipment in the office, and gave her a shoulder to cry on. A quote from the last text I received, two days ago: “How did you do all of this???”

    Today, I learned from a friend who still works there that her things are gone and keys were left on her desk. Looks like a couple of execs are left in the lurch. Forgive the smirk on my face…I can’t help feeling just a tiny bit smug. Thanks for letting me share!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Karma I guess.

      But ugh, I am sorry you went through that. It sounds like you handled it with more grace than I would have done. (I hope it didn’t take you long to get out.) I am sure new assistant appreciated your advice and shoulder.

      Best with NewJob and thanks for sharing!

      1. Robbemel*

        It took about two months from the time I started looking to the day I started NewJob. I was selective because I wanted to be close to home. I now have a 7-minute commute instead of an hour-plus, and I get to come home and check on my hubby at lunch every day!

    2. Menacia*

      Wow, I’m surprised, even after the way the company treated you, how much you went above and beyond (and beyond) to document, and then support (for eight months?!) the person who took over when you left… I’m really curious why you did? I am hoping you won’t be doing the same for the next person and can finally move on from here…for your own sake?

  135. Snazzy Hat*

    Thanks so much to KatieKate and Colette from last week’s open thread! This morning I received a call from a place I applied to on wednesday, and had a surprise phone interview!

    As a reminder, Alison’s advice on customized cover letters is spot-on. I have used the company’s services for decades and brought that up in the letter. In the phone interview, the interviewer asked me why I was interested in the job, and after explaining what I interpreted from the posting, I said I was also a big fan of the company in general. The interviewer said something like, “yes, I saw in your cover letter you mentioned the [upcoming exciting event hosted by the company], not many people know about that,” to which I truthfully replied, “well I’m attending it”.

    {flings more fortune glitter around}

  136. PNW-Anon*

    I’m a little late to the party for advice but hopefully some of you can chime in. I’m in serious burn-out mode and weighing all my options (quit my job and look for a new one, try to figure out how to deal with burn-out while staying at my job, quit and take some much needed TIME OFF before job searching). I’ve been at current company for over 8 years, worked my way up from an assistant in charge of HR to a director overseeing a department (though the title is less than a year old – I’ve been doing the work for years) but I feel like I’m running on empty.
    Did you ever experience burn-out and what did you do that worked or what did you do that didn’t work to manage it?

    1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I’m very burned out in my current job. I just try to take deep breaths and keep going on while looking for something new. I’m past my breaking point, but I can’t afford to quit.

    2. Laura*

      Can you take some time off (preferably at least four days) to do some soul-searching? I didn’t realize what I wanted to do with myself until I missed a week of work after a car accident. I did a lot of thinking during that time, and that’s when I realized how miserable I was, and how toxic my work environment was.

      I really wouldn’t advise quitting without another job lined up, unless money isn’t an issue for you.

      1. PNW-Anon*

        Thanks for the advice. I have four more days before I take a two week vacations, some of which will be to attend a professional conference. I have a working spouse and money saved so quitting with nothing lined up would be okay financially. I’ve probably been burned out for almost a year and my friends tell me they’ve been hearing me complain for more than that.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Gee, I’m the Debbie Downer of the bunch. Even though I was serious burnt out in my last job, I bought into the school of though that I was better off in the job that was burning me out, than to just quit. I did have a few interviews, but being so burnt out hurt my ability to dedicate a serious, all-out job hunt.

      I hung in for as long as I could. Though my work performance was formidable, my attitude wasn’t good and I was fired after being told that I was resistant to change. (I don’t think I was resistant to change, but the workload had grown considerably, both volume of work and extra tasks added to mix. The pay had not grown. I did speak out against a request to eliminate some steps in how work was done, because the information would be needed at various branch offices at a later date and I felt it was better to get the information during the initial customer contact, than having to go back and either try to find it or go back to the customer for it.)

      In retrospect, I wish I had quit at some point and I wish I had made more of an effort to find another job before being fired.

      I

    4. NicoleK*

      I’ll admit during serious burn out mode, I didn’t put in my typical effort. I coasted a bit until the situation had improved. I also spoke to my manager about the burn out (burn out is common in my field but this may not be a wise decision depending on your company and field). And lastly, I made sure I took a vacation.

  137. Mark in Cali*

    I’m working on a second bachelor’s degree in information technology. For me a second bachelor’s makes sense for a STEM field since I have a theatre degree. My question it to those people in the software, IT and business systems fields: a degree in IT seems like a newer type of degree (I don’t remember seeing that as an option when I applying to college back in 2003): what are your thoughts on a degree in information technology? Of course programs will vary, but they seem to focus on network admin, cyber security or web development. I think I am more interested in a CS degree, but I don’t think I could handle the physics and higher level math (I’ve passe Calc I and that was something I’d rather not repeat). If I want to be a programmer, what I’ve heard is that most of the best are self taught, though I bet the CS degree would help. I just don’t want to invest all this time in an IT degree to end up working at a help desk for less money than I’m making now in business.

    Of course if I’ve made it this far with a theatre degree, I think I could do even more with an IT degree.

    1. Jaguar*

      Degrees definitely help. As discussed in (I think?) last Friday’s open thread, there is some significant bias against programmers without a degree by hiring managers, so that would fix that issue for you. However (and I don’t want to hit this issue too hard, because it can scare people off), you aren’t going to get a modern education in computer science through a four-year program – it just moves too fast. Node.js is the big thing in web development right now, and it’s been around for five years. I haven’t really looked, but I imagine it would still be hard to find a University program with a strong Node.js component. Meanwhile, Node developers are being hired now. So, especially in web development, the ability to self-teach is far more valuable than the ability to get through a program, and there’s no point at which you switch from learning to doing – you’re constantly having to keep up.

      In any case, yes, the degree will certainly help you get jobs. But it’s of questionable value for teaching you what you need to know.

      1. Mark in Cali*

        Thanks for the advice. I recognize your handle on here and I tend to agree with your viewpoints.

        Your advice makes me think I’m ok sticking with the IT degree (I’m a full time working adult with a salary and a computer science or software engineering degree just is too intense for me at this point in life).

        I’m barely scratching the surface of Python and Java right now, but you’ve peaked my interest in looking into Node.js

        I know degrees can be seen as valuable, but I think there’s even more contention over certifications (see Coding Horror). I wonder if instead of a CS degree, but having an interest in programming, the IT degree along with a certification might help? I just feel like I’m going to run into the age old problem of finding someone to give me a chance when I have little to no experience in real-world programming.

        1. Jaguar*

          Yeah, finding someone to give you a chance is the biggest breakthtrough.

          Full disclosure: I only broke into the industry a year and a half ago, and I’m in web development. I’ve never worked in mobile (I’m building a Cordova / Ionic app, but that’s built with web technology) or desktop development. I did my degree in English, but I spent a few years flirting with all sorts of stuff in university after high school, including computer science. If you read Coding Horror, you may have come across a lot of the complaining that universities spit out CS majors that can’t do simple programming tasks. I don’t know how accurate that is, but I can say that in the CS courses I took, I was always in the top of my class and some people that were in the CS-program-proper were clearly not cut out for it.

          When you get into developing, it can seem like the goalposts are constantly moving backwards. You learn HTML/CSS/JavaScript, so you’re good to be a front-end developer, right? The correct answer is yes, but then you look at job postings and read blogs and actually you need to learn SASS. And, wait, you don’t know jQuery? And you’re gonna need Angular. And we don’t really hire people that don’t know React. And obviously you need Bootstrap. And on and on. It’s the same for back-end development and (I presume) server development.

          The most important skill you can have is the ability to sit down and work through a problem, referencing Stack Overflow and language APIs and Stack Overflow and reference books and Stack Overflow as needed to get you past each problem you run into. It’s a frustrating and intense way to learn and you’re going to feel like there’s no way you’re going to figure this all out and you’ve dug yourself an incredibly deep hole and there’s no way you’re going to climb back out and Jesus I wish I knew someone that could tell me what I’m doing wrong and then suddenly you try something and all your code works and they sky is clear and you understand everything about that problem now.

          One thing that is important, though, is to pick a track you want to start on (front-end development, back-end development, mobile development, server administration, database administration, enterprise development, etc) and start building out from there. There is going to be a lot of overlap, but you’ll have a much better foundation for learning (as opposed to jumping back and forth from language to language trying to find an edge). Python is very good for a lot of stuff and is a favourite of major companies like Facebook and Google (and something I only have the absolute lightest experience in). Java is really good and very employable-in but it’s also hard and people have been talking about moving away from it for years. If you want to learn back-end (which Node.js is for), I’d suggest spending a bit of time with PHP/MySQL, as it will give you the easiest jump into both back-end scripting and databases.

          1. Mark in Cali*

            You are the best! Great advice.

            Luckily I really DO love problem solving. I don’t like problem solving in my current job because it’s not tangible. It’s “strategy.” I’m in marking and program admin right now and it seems we solve all these problems that we create for ourselves so we have something to do (and ultimately reach goals that I believe we don’t really have control over).

            At least IT and programming results in someTHING (even if it is for some marketer to make some uninformed decision or track yet another customer preference), so I am excited to join the ranks of problem solvers (that’s why I respect the engineers I work with so very much, they do the REAL work).

            I take my next level object oriented programming course in a few weeks. Maybe after that I’ll have a better sense of which track I want to start on.

        2. Jaguar*

          Sorry, I realize I didn’t address the issue of certifications. I work with open-source technologies primarially, and certification on those is pretty sparse and I never see job openings even mentioning them. I think they’re more important for technologies with major companies behind them (Java and Sun, .NET and Microsoft, Oracle and… Oracle). Python, for instance, probably doesn’t have much in the way of agreed-upon and acknowledged certifications. So, unfortunately, I can’t really answer how useful they are in finding a job.

      2. FatBigot*

        I agree with this. However, I have always found it easier to self-teach when there is a clear goal in mind. Does your Theater experience suggest any possible programming projects? Either to start yourself, or to contribute to on Sourceforge.

        It does not have to be big, in fact if just starting the smaller the better, but it will allow you to quickly find the sort of area of expertise that is a good fit for you, and what is involved in developing code.

        1. Mark in Cali*

          I’ve found some basic project ideas, not theatre related, like a dice rolling game for example that I’ve been trying to work on in my free time. I’ve only had one course it Python so far and I’m having trouble finding free time to keep learning Python or Java outside of my other classes and full time job and SLEEP. But yeah, that’s where I’ve landed for now: trying to build a portfolio of simple projects that at least show I know the basics and can leave good comments.

    2. The IT Manager*

      It depends on what you want to do.
      (1) Do you want to be a coder? (Computer science is not about network administration, web development, managing IT projects)
      (2) What kind of applications do you want to write? (Not focused on Web, GUI interfaces, front-end work.)

      Computer Science is the original degree name. In general, it teaches you how to think about coding irregardless of the specific language (although nearly all comp sci programming classes have you write code in a particular language as part of your homework/lab), but the idea is you learn about the types of algorithms best used to solve types of problems and you apply this knowledge in future in whatever language you happen to be writing in. If you want going to be writing complex, processor intensive code in the future, this would be for you. You may or may not need to take multiple calculus classes but there will be some higher level math required. Comp Sci degree would definitely help you be a good programmer if that’s the direction you want to go. It helps you to learn how to think like a programmer.

      IT degrees tend more toward business uses of IT and there’s probably very little math. There’s probably some talk about different network design, security, planning/scheduling, project management, requirement analysis without ever getting down into the nitty gritty about coding algorithms in fact there might be no classes that include writing code at all.

      I have a Comp Sci Bachelors and an IT Masters which biases my answer. I don’t know how useful the IT degree is to break into a new career. Does it teach you enough to switch fields into IT? I’m not sure; although, mine was a masters so a bachelors might be different. IT degree feels to me more of a professional degree to augment someone already doing IT work and wanting a degree for it.

      If you want to learn to program definitely go for comp sci degree. But if you just want to learn to code in a particular language, you don’t need a full degree for that. You only need to learn that language especially if it’s a language that focus on the front end user interface rather than heavy duty calculations on the back end.

      1. Mark in Cali*

        Thanks for this, very helpful!

        I realize I need to get a bit deeper in the IT degree before I determine where I want to go. I’m almost up to the math requirements (I’ve taken Calc I) and the only other math is Discreet Math Structures. I’ve noticed that the CS degrees have up to Calc III, linear algebra and usually some physics and chemistry . . . I don’t think I can shake that right now. Based on the advice I’m hearing from you and Jaguar, I think I’ll keep forging ahead with IT (I start the core classes this fall) and maybe consider going to grad school in a few years for CS.

        I think I could have gone straight to grad school for CS with a lot of catching up on math and sciences, but it just didn’t feel right with my theatre degree.

        This is has been the story of my life though, so many interests so little time and then I just sit in the middle of a pile of mess and cry! I’m worried that I’ll get halfway through the IT program and say, “I should have done CS,” but if I do CS I worry I’m going to get halfway through it and say, “this is too hard and just not right for me.” I’m sure I’m not the first person in the world to feel this way!

  138. Mockingjay*

    I have an interview next week!

    That is all. :)

    [Even if I don’t get it, it’s nice to be asked.]

  139. Sadsack*

    Reply-all annoyances are frequently a topic discussed here. So, I’d like to share something that I recently discovered and do not recall seeing mentioned here. Outlook now has an “ignore conversation” button. I have not had an opportunity to use it yet, but it seems that this could help avoid being included in all those replies-to-all that people send needlessly. Anyone ever try it?

    1. Oh Fed*

      I had the glorious pleasure of using Ignore this week. Hundreds of people in my org were invited to a webinar last week and one potential attendee inexplicably announce that she would like to attend but would be “5 min late.” This utterly unnecessary announcement led to an avalanche of replies this week (the webinar now long over) asking “please remove me from this group” and the ever popular “me too”. And then strangely two sub-group spin offs 1) re: How to remove yourself from ______ and 2) Please stop replying to all!!!!
      I digress…. Ignore worked quite nicely

  140. Vix*

    Anyone out there with an uncanny ability to name things?

    I recently started a new role that was just created. I’m managing a group that used to be two completely separate teams, but they sort of combined a few months ago, but they still each use their old department name. There’s very much a divide between these two groups.

    The two groups have very separate, but related tasks, and it all comes down to recovering funds for the company (fairly large retailer, we work in the online division). Funds can be recovered by fixing systematic errors, by auditing orders that may have been placed incorrectly or shipped incorrectly, things like that.

    I’ve been asked to come up with a new department name that will unify the two teams. I absolutely agree with the idea, but I’m lost on the name.

    Any ideas?

      1. Vix*

        Ooh, all great suggestions. I like remediation, I hadn’t even considered that word. Thank you!

      1. Vix*

        I’d been thinking something with Recovery in it, love that you and animaniactoo both said Asset Recovery. Thank you!

  141. Tomato Frog*

    Embarrassing yourself in front of IT! The great American office worker pastime! Right? Right? It’s not just me?

    Last time I put in a ticket with IT, it turned out the problem was that the internet wasn’t plugged in. Embarrassing, but we all have our off days, right? Today I put in a ticket to get a program installed. The same IT guy come to do it… and says the program’s already installed. He’s like, “It’s not on the desktop but if you look at the start menu…” No, seriously, it was not anywhere on the computer before! Despite appearances to the contrary, I am not a total luddite! After I explained that I had searched for the program and checked the start menu before, and the program had definitely not been there, he offered a theory as to why the program might have taken a while to show up. But I got the distinct impression he didn’t think this was the most likely explanation as to why I didn’t see it before. Oi.

      1. Menacia*

        Actually, if you go to the Start Menu, select Control Panel, and then go into Programs and Features, you can see when the application was actually installed. We IT folks can do many things in “stealth” mode without users even knowing!

        1. Tomato Frog*

          Aha! There it is, June 3. Maybe I should email him a screenshot.

          Kidding. Mostly.

          1. Hallway Feline*

            I say do it. Sometimes IT needs to be reminded that they aren’t always hot ish.

    2. LQ*

      Whenever people are embarrassed about their computer issues I just tell them that the computer is only working because it knows I’m nearby. It happens A LOT. If it makes you feel better I’ve nearly always forgotten about whatever it was by the time I get back to my desk.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        It does make me feel better, thank you. I know that computers are moody creatures, but sometimes I’m not so sure that more technically savvy people know it.

      2. Tau*

        Magical IT person healing aura was definitely my explanation for the monitor that kept blinking out except when the IT person was nearby. You should market that stuff!

    3. Lily Evans*

      I’m usually pretty good at troubleshooting, but sometimes I’d have an off day at my old job and I’d end up contacting IT about something where the solution was to just restart the computer…

    4. DaBlonde*

      Nope definitely not just you, I try to double check everything before calling IT, but sometimes the problem is located between the keyboard and the chair.

  142. Safe to say I didn't get it?*

    I had a job interview earlier this week and was told that the final decision would be made on Wednesday (there was only one round of interviews). The whole process seemed really fast.. within one week of the job posting deadline they were done all their interviews. I haven’t heard back yet, and I know that they may have called someone on Wednesday and they’re working out the offer with that candidate. But I’m holding out for the hope that maybe they were too optimistic in their timeline and they haven’t called anyone yet. There was no HR person in my interview and this is a newly created position, so is it possible/likely that HR needs to do more paperwork than the interviewers expected? I’m not sure what kind of paperwork needs to be done, but doesn’t wrapping up interviews on a Monday and expecting to make a job offer by Wednesday seem like a fast a turnaround?

    1. Colette*

      It’s possible they haven’t made a decision, or that they have but are waiting on something, or that they offered the job to someone else, or that they don’t know whethe they want to hire anyone. Pretend you didn’t get it and let it be a surprise if you did.

  143. Potsie Weber*

    Anyone know the best way to handle a long illness on a resume? I worked for Fonzie’s Motorcycles from 2009 – 2014 and got laid off. I then took a position at Laverne and Shirley’s Chocolate Tea Pots and after about six months I was let go because I missed too much time. Right after this happened, I was diagnosed with A Very Serious Illness so I was really out of commission for about 9 months with treatments and recovery. I’m ready to get back to work, though, and I’m stumped about how I should present all this on my resume. Any suggestions? Thank you!

    1. Laura*

      You wouldn’t address it on a resume at all; rather, do it in a cover letter.

      “After working at Shirley’s Chocolate Tea Pots for six months, I had to leave the workforce when I was diagnosed with a medical condition, which has since been resolved. XXX opportunity interests me greatly because…”

      And then go from there. It’s important that you tell them the medical issue HAS SINCE BEEN RESOLVED, so they don’t have anything to fear about your ability to do your job.

  144. Scared Newbie*

    I’m applying for a department manager position at a large grocery chain where I already work as a clerk. This is my first try at trying for a higher position at any job and it’s a big jump, so I’m kind of freaking out. I think that my store manager would be the one to interview me, but since I have to apply through the company’s website I don’t know who else will see my application. How do I address my cover letter?

        1. Scared Newbie*

          Thank you both very much! This is a completely new situation for me and I know I’ve been overthinking every detail. It’s great to have this place as a resource to spell it all out.

  145. Anxa*

    On duties/accomplishments:

    I’ve been trying to focus more on accomplishments for my resume. My job really doesn’t give me a lot of opportunity for that during paid hours, so I’ve pulled back on my second job search to do as much research and brainstorming as possible to be more productive at work and hope to get a small little side project off the ground.

    Hopefully eventually I’ll start to accomplish things; most of my accomplishments are 10 years old at this point and from college jobs.

    So when that happens….how would I handle resumes with applications that have experience fields with a ‘duties’ section. Often there’s a box that asks for duties or responsibilities. Usually, I just repeat my resume bullets because I feel like it’s easier than having to look at both my resume and my application to compare them. Sometimes I’ll add a few extra lines to the application box, since there’s no page limit, but I try to make it obvious that it’s an add on.

    But if I have accomplishments on my resume, would it be better to take them off completely for the application, or to reword them into a more duty-like language. I kind of thing adding/deleting stuff is the easiest to process when reviewing two documents, but I don’t know that I’d want to lose the information completely or have to rework the resume to be more responsibility-focused

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’re taking their wording too literally — it’s fine to repeat your resume bullet there even though they’re accomplishments rather than duties. Assume that “duties” means “what did you do there?”

      1. Anxa*

        That’s what I thought initially, but I try to be so careful not to be one of those candidates that can’t follow simple directions, which seems to be common complaint.

  146. Sarah*

    So I told my director that I am giving notice (or had given notice to my parent organization) and my last day would be in 3 weeks. He then became very rude and mean to me – “you’re a typical (position) that leaves every 2 years,” “I hope you go somewhere where you like people,” etc. I just laughed at the last comment because it’s so not true. I enjoy some people I work with now, but some are not productive/performing. I can’t wait to be out of here. Yay for moving on!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      When someone makes a comment like that, where it just does not make sense, they are probably telling us something about themselves. In this case, the director is the one who does not like people.

  147. Mimmy*

    Looking to hear from program evaluators!

    One thing I loved in my previous volunteer work is evaluating grant proposals and visiting the funded agencies. I just enjoy reading about how programs are developed and evaluated (internally) and the “best practices” that they model their programs after.

    Doing program evaluation professionally is one thing I’ve considered – Is there actually a market for this? Or is it one of those duties that gets folded into a larger, managerial role? (I’m not interested in management).

    I don’t drive, so site visits is probably not an option. But I want to evaluate *something* lol.

    1. Sarah*

      Yes, there is definitely a market for this. This could be project based (nonprofits write in program evaluation into the project budget/grant budget) or for the whole organization. At one of my previous nonprofits, the local foundation would hire consultants to work with local nonprofits through a capacity building program. One of our three consultants was focused on data and program evaluation. She worked with the staff to create a logic model and individual evaluation mechanisms for our education programs.

    2. periwinkle*

      Little late to the party but if you’re still checking… My role includes elements of program evaluation. I’m a big fan of Patton’s utilization-focused evaluation and have attended the American Evaluation Association’s summer institute and annual conference (and plan to attend both again next year). It’s fun stuff.

      I’m not in the non-profit world, though. I’m corporate! Skills similar to program evaluation show up in the field of workplace performance improvement. Visit ISPI [dot] org to check out the professional association for this field. My role at work is officially in training & development but my current major projects are an evaluation of some high-profile cross-functional projects to identify barriers/enablers/lessons learned and the design/implementation plan for results-based evaluation of workplace training including informal learning. I’m in the middle of helping a function define a formal peer-mentor role – and based the analysis around a simple logic model. Everything my department does fits nicely into a classic program evaluation model.

      So yeah, there’s a market for this. :)

    3. KW10*

      Monitoring and evaluating (M&E) is hugely important in the international development field. It’s much more complex than just looking at best practices, and in fact it can be fairly quantitative-heavy in terms of developing indicators and doing data analysis. There are a lot of career options, though many may want relevant experience. I’ve also seen people start with a more general entry level intl development position and eventually shift into m&e.
      (This is late but hopefully still helpful!)

  148. Isabel C.*

    Also, while I’m asking questions:

    I’ve published (with a publishing house and everything) about five romance novels and one novella, as well as two short stories. In the course of publicity for said novels/novella, I have a blog and write guest blog posts. Would any of these (or one-page excerpts from same) be appropriate for a job (at the moment, editor of a college alumni magazine) that requests writing samples? I’d have to note that the published fiction was heavily edited, of course.

    My other options are a) use back-cover copy from the legal books that I’ve been editing, or sample emails I’ve sent to people, or b) write something new.

    1. Joanna*

      It would possibly be appropriate to use them for some of your samples but for an alumni magazine I assume they’re most wanting to see your non-fiction writing abilities.

      1. Isabel C.*

        Makes sense, yeah–I’m thinking I’ll go with one excerpt, one blog entry/guest post (generally nonfiction, talking casually about aspects of writing/pop culture) and one back cover copy so they know I can do formalish writing.

        Thanks!

  149. LPBB*

    Okay, this is pretty late in the day, but I hope someone sees it because I could use some help.

    I’m trying to update my resume and am having trouble describing my current role. I was brought in on a short-term contract to finish building a digital collection of historic documents. This collection hadn’t been worked on for at least a year, the person who was working on it left behind very little documentation that was scattered all over the place, and no one else but her knew what was in the collection, the status of documents that were being digitized for the collection, or even where most of the documents were. I spent the first two months simply inventorying the collection so that I could answer those questions, and now we have a very pretty, very usable, sortable spreadsheet that answers all of those questions and more.

    I’m terrible with resume language, so I just don’t know how to phrase it on my resume, especially in a way that makes me seem like a “self-starter who is comfortable with ambiguity.” Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      What field are we talking about? It sounds like informally (in that you weren’t doing it in Voyager or a similar system) cataloging a collection to me.

    2. SophieChotek*

      it sounds like some of what you did was also about organization skills, cataloging (as you mentioned) the type of document, etc.

  150. Master Bean Counter*

    Small vent.

    I was looking at leaving early today because my afternoon meetings got cancelled. They’ve scheduled a new one now. Meetings after noon on Friday should be illegal.

    Okay, I feel better now.

    1. Bibliovore*

      Hey, my assistant took off the afternoon and scheduled a pick up for ME to wait for until 6:00 today. We will have a little chat about this next week.

    2. Laura*

      A director in my office regularly gets roped into 4:00 meetings on Fridays. It drives him INSANE. We feel your pain!

    3. Vix*

      If you use Outlook or something similar, do they tend to respect the availability they see in your calendar?

      There is something freeing about putting in a four hour block at the end of your day that just says “Private appointment” or something similar. Then you can decline meetings with no (less) guilt, and either you actually can leave early or you can use the time to work uninterrupted on all those little things that pile up during the week.

      I feel your pain. :-/

    4. me too*

      a few weeks ago I had blocked off an entire Friday afternoon so I could get a jump start on a weekend trip and then a very.important.meeting was rescheduled for 3 pm. (then the meeting started at 3:30 due to a fire and then it took 5 minutes.)

      (I do not mean fire in the literal sense…but I do not want to change my sentence either.)

  151. Bibliovore*

    Archivist- created a digital repository and finding aid in X program. independently managed, documented a collection of x-number of documents for x period of time. (if there is public access put in the url)

  152. Bibliovore*

    A big thank you to Alison and the AAM crew. I was negotiating a freelance position yesterday and was able to prepare for it by searching the archives.
    Focussed on
    Noted my enthusiasm for the role.
    Stated disappointment in the offer.
    Noted comparable salaries in the field focussing on comparable institutions.
    Noted what I brought to the table.
    Restated my enthusiasm.

    shut up.
    Listened to the hiring manager state economics of the situation. She asked what I was looking for.

    Was ready with a suggestion for the amount that I would accept. (10 % higher) She agreed to my figure.

  153. Bibliovore*

    Hey Columbus Ohio!

    I am in Columbus Ohio for a conference, arriving Wed. coming home early Sunday. I am free Wed. afternoon and again on Saturday afternoon, (and evening) Is there anything I shouldn’t miss?

    Also- strange request… would love a day spa to visit or in a hotel. Any recommendations?

  154. Ringo Roundtree*

    So today I accepted a sales job in my field, not unlike my very first sales job in my field 15 years ago, at 100% commission and no salary – old school.
    After being unemployed for 2 months, I need to be bringing home a paycheck so I don’t go crazy and my family is fed.
    I can’t hold out for a better paying position anymore. Someone please tell me this is the right thing to do.

    1. Overeducated*

      Feeding your family is the right thing thing to do. Good for you for stepping up and I hope this is the first step to a better job soon.

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      If it’s something in your field and you are good enough at sales where you will make enough money to live comfortably — which may also be frugally — then you are doing the right thing. If you are miserable, then it’s a not-wrong thing. You’ll be earning some sort of income while thinking about the jobs to which you’ll still be applying.

      I’ve said before that the threshold for being paid “enough” is where you can allow yourself to stop searching for another job without feeling guilty or angry about working at the job you have. If I get hired at a place that offers less than my last job but more than minimum wage, I’ll likely take the job but keep looking for something better. I’ll be annoyed that it’s not what I feel I *could* be making (in the sense that someone has paid me X/hr before, so why should I settle for X-3/hr), but it’s better than the 0/hr I’ve been earning for the past five months, and I’d probably be doing work I enjoy (hence the application). On the other hand, if I get hired at a place that is easily accessible and offers X+5/hr & much-needed benefits, I will cry with happiness, then start planning the celebratory party and go window shopping at fashion boutiques.

    3. NN*

      I agree, you did the responsible adult thing, even if it feels like a backwards step in terms of pay. And it does seem it’s easier to get a job when you already have a job, so hopefully this is a step to a better, and better paying, position.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      100% commission, old school, represent! Some of my best days. :) Long time ago.

      Okay so there aren’t a lot of fields left where 100% commission and no salary (especially to start the job) is the norm.

      I will say a cautious “sure, you did the right thing” with one big warning: CHECK YOUR NON COMPETE. Check your paperwork, any paperwork you sign, very carefully for ***non compete***. I’ve got horror stories from friends you got hung up by this taking a job in their field to get by.

      As long as you are not signing a non compete, why not. And keep looking. Because that’s what most people who are taking 100% commission no salary jobs nowadays do (that I’m aware of!), they keep looking for something that’s more secure in the meantime.

      If there is a non-compete that is locking you out of the field that you’d like to stay in, do not sign it and don’t take the job, walk away. It will not end well.

    5. Ringo Roundtree*

      Thanks all for the comments!
      I’m nervous because my last 2 jobs did not end well. I was middle management 2 years ago, but was let go because a niece of the owner wanted my job. At least they recommend me in referrals. Then I went to a start-up to do regional sales management, and that business…failed. So hardcore sales should set me straight for a while.

  155. LisaD*

    Can I get some feedback on how I handled a situation?

    I have a vegetarian employee who is in the unfortunate position of being the only veg*an in the company and also the only woman of her particular ethnic minority group in the company. (I mentioned her in a previous open thread, yes it’s the same person if you saw that.) The company provides a catered lunch the first Friday of every month.

    Today our office manager went out of his way to pack up the only vegetarian entree leftovers–a sandwich that isn’t terribly good–and bring the box to the vegetarian employee’s desk to offer it to her. There had been a previous conflict where no vegetarian entree was ordered for a past lunch, so I saw this as a peace offering by the office manager, with the message being “I’m thinking of your needs for this company event, knowing that for a previous one I didn’t think of you and it upset you.”

    However, my employee has started bringing her own food for catered lunch day, to make sure she won’t go hungry if the vegetarian option is forgotten again. Instead of clarifying that, she just said “Nope, not my jam,” and turned back to her work when she was offered the food.

    To me, that came off shockingly rude and unappreciative of the office manager’s work. I treated it as such in the moment and immediately told my employee that she should have at least thanked the office manager for going out of his way to make a peace offering, even if she didn’t want the food. I suggested the wording, “No thank you, I brought my own lunch today.”

    A few hours later I’m second-guessing myself because I know she didn’t mean to be hurtful–she just has a dry wit that can come across as abrasive–and because I criticized her in an open working area, which I try never to do. I think I felt pressure to respond immediately both because other people in the open area were looking at her in shock (causing me to feel embarrassed on behalf of my team) and because I’ve previously had a hard time getting her to recognize later in a private 1:1 when something she said offhand to a coworker was rude/hurtful. (She usually leans on the excuse “you had to be there” – well, this time I was there.)

    Should I have handled this differently?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t have said anything to her.

      went out of his way to pack up the only vegetarian entree leftovers–a sandwich that isn’t terribly good

      So it’s leftovers that aren’t good? And she’s supposed to be grateful?

      I think her saying “It’s not my jam” isn’t really the best way to respond (I prefer your phrasing about having brought her own lunch), but I also don’t view it as incredibly rude. I would just say that your office manager had good intentions, and it didn’t work out the way he expected, and in the future he won’t do that, and she will just keep bringing her own lunch.

      1. LisaD*

        Thanks for the feedback – yes I think it was a case of good intentions leading to a not terribly appreciated favor. This particular employee has gotten herself a reputation as being high maintenance and tending to be rude, so I’m on high alert with her and may have been too reactive.

        The previous catered lunch conflict involved her secluding herself in an office, saying “I just need to be alone,” and posting “so angry right now” messages on social media because the vegetarian entree had been forgotten – it was the same entree (the restaurant doesn’t really have any good veg options, so the same sandwich was ordered both times but the previous time the catering failed to deliver the sandwiches). So I think the office manager thought she really loved those sandwiches because she was so upset they were forgotten, when the reality was she was just upset about not being included, and doesn’t even really enjoy those sandwiches.

    2. NicoleK*

      Did the employee partake in this catered lunch? I can’t tell since later on, you mentioned that she’s been bringing own food because a vegan option wasn’t always provided. Honestly, it would be strange if a coworker or manager decided to pack up mediocre leftovers and deliver it to my desk especially if I never asked for leftovers.

      That said, it probably would have been better to discuss this with your employee in private.

      1. LisaD*

        I agree, I really should have discussed it in private later, since this time I did witness it. I think I jumped the gun because there were so many people visibly reacting and I didn’t want to be seen to ignore the situation.

        After the last catered lunch she decided to bring her own food going forward, because she got so angry about her entree being forgotten last month that it caused quite a stir–so I brainstormed with her how she could avoid those feelings in the future and she decided on skipping the catered lunches and bringing her own, because she doesn’t really like the vegetarian option they offer anyway, and this way she knows she’ll definitely have food.

        1. Observer*

          Did your AM know this?

          In any case, your employee wasn’t being terribly rude. In fact, I have to wonder if she deserves the reputation of being high maintenance.

          Think about it from her perspective. She is KNOWN to be a vegetarian, but you are not going to change your caterer to accommodate her. That’s annoying, but understandable. But then, someone couldn’t even be bothered to get the one option that that does exist. Of course that’s upsetting. Your response was to brainstorm about how she can “avoid those feelings”. Unless you are phrasing this REALLY badly, what comes across is that you don’t really have a problem with the option not being ordered, but that she’s reacting poorly to it. So, she comes up with a solution that really absolves you and the OM of any any responsibility. That doesn’t sound very “high maintenance” to me.

          At that point, leaving things be would be the sensible way to go. If the OM wanted to make a peace offering, packing the leftovers, then emailing / im’ing / calling the employee to let her know and ask her if she’s interested would be the way to go. Instead she comes and presents this to the employee in person. Calling her reaction incredibly rude is, in my opinion, way over-reacting.

          I know a lot of non-high maintenance people who would be thinking 1. Why would even think I want this now? And / or 2. Please don’t make a public thing of how you are trying so hard to accommodate me. I’m still going to have to bring my own lunch.

          I’m sure your OM meant well. But she (he?) did mishandle the situation somewhat. And while it’s true that your employee didn’t handle things in the most gracious manner, the was hardly terribly rude. And the fact that people were so shocked (assuming you were reading the room correctly) doesn’t mean that she’s at fault perhaps you should consider the possibility that others are being unreasonable, or they were shocked the the OM brought her the sad leftovers.

          1. LisaD*

            To be clear, the OM wasn’t at fault – it was the restaurant that forgot her order and she lost it on the OM then stomped out to lock herself in an office to be alone after realizing the restaurant had left her order out. OM offered to order her something else from a different restaurant at company expense and she refused. I definitely see both sides here, which is why I’m so conflicted as manager in this situation. She’s allowed to be angry that her needs weren’t considered, but I think she consistently expresses her frustration in ways that damage her relationships with others.

            1. Observer*

              That’s a separate issue. In this case, her behavior was not egregious, and the OM, while meaning well, didn’t do the smartest thing. The original stomping out was definitely more of an issue for me, as stomping out of meetings should be left for far more egregious things than forgetting to accommodate one’s lunch order (even if it had been the OM’s fault.)

              So, I get that she needs to moderate how she deals with people. But you’ll get a lot farther if you step back a bit and be a bit more balanced and willing to recognize her point of view.

              So: Making a scene is unacceptable, even though she was angry. That’s not a work appropriate response. Figuring out how to avoid feeling resentful? That’s her problem. Figuring out how to minimize scenarios that would lead to justifiable annoyance and resentment – that’s a place for brainstorming, and she seems to have come up with a reasonable solution (which says she is probably not so high maintenance). Coming down on her in public for being insufficiently gracious in response to a clumsy and poorly thought out attempt by the OM? Not a good move.

              I’d leave it be. But, I think it’s worth thinking about how you view her and react to her.

    3. AnotherTeacher*

      Agreeing with the other replies – Her response wasn’t particularly gracious, but it seems like there hasn’t been much consideration for her dietary choices. As a vegetarian, I would rather bring my own food than have a non-vegetarian pick something out for me in these situations.

      It sounds like you’re a very considerate manager, since you’re concerned about how you handled this. Maybe next month, you can approach her about the catered lunch ahead of time and ask if she’d like to talk to the office manager about her preferences? That might model the kind of consideration for office relations you’d like her to display.

      1. LisaD*

        Thank you for the response – I was especially hoping to hear from a vegetarian. The choice of monthly catering restaurant is not very veg-friendly – they really only have one veg entree. The other days of the month the company provides lunch from Seamless, so everyone orders as they please – it’s just that one day out of the month is a “special treat” of a big catered feast for meat eaters, and a bummer for the one non-meat-eater. The other 19 workdays of the month there are multiple vegetarian/vegan options to order from local eateries.

        After the last conflict over the catered lunch, she decided against the option of working on it with the office manager and said she preferred to avoid conflict entirely by bringing her own lunch once a month. (We also offered her the option of ordering delivery for herself from a different restaurant on the big carnivorous feast day, at the company’s expense, which she declined.)

        I think the office manager got the impression from how upset she was the one time the vegetarian sandwiches were forgotten that she really LOVED those sandwiches, which couldn’t be further from the truth – her upset was along the lines of “the one thing this restaurant offers that I can eat was the one thing they left out and nobody but me seems to care,” not “I’m missing out on a favorite dish.”

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Well, I think it was rude. The right answer when someone does something for you, with nice intentions, is to accept gracefully if possible, or decline gracefully if accepting isn’t possible. Being rude wins you no friends and is bad karma.

      However! I don’t think you should have said anything at that time. I don’t believe a manager should be in the business of managing (or in the case, micro managing) the interactions and relationships between employees. Nothing good ever comes of it, and the attempts cause an ever growing number of requests from employees for more interaction management.

      If the employee’s lack of being able to get along with others is a work problem, and the employee wants coaching on how to get along better, that’s a great example to pull out at a later date in a 1 on 1.

      1. LisaD*

        The challenge I have with her is that when I address things like this later in a 1:1, she usually insists the other person didn’t feel it was rude (putting me in the position of either disclosing that the other person confidentially gave me feedback that they DID feel it was rude, or making it my observation against hers). She once said, jokingly, about the same office manager, “Khal Drogo is TERRIBLE at his job, right?” — her intention was to teasingly call attention to how Khal’s manager had accidentally slighted him in a conversation, effectively sticking up for Khal, but it came across as not at all joking – when I brought it up later in a 1:1, she insisted “Oh Khal totally got the joke, Khal’s manager didn’t.”

        1. Observer*

          That’s a totally separate issue, and one you need to address. In this case, for instance, you could point out to her that as long as any key person in the conversation doesn’t get the joke, then it’s a problem. And, because these jokes can be easily misunderstood, that it is HER problem and she needs to change.

          As for cases where you have been told by the object of her joke that they didn’t get the joke, or that they didn’t find it funny you need to tell the people who are telling you that, that they can either learn to live with her humor, or you need to be able to disclose. You absolutely should NOT offer confidentiality if they want you to do something.

          This comes up here a lot. Notice how often Alison gets variations of this question – My co-worker / supervisor / supervisee / whoever else in the company is doing thing that makes me nuts. How do I get them to stop doing thing without talking to them about it? And, notice how often the response is “You can’t. You need to talk to person or decide whether you can live with this.” Conversations with a supervisor are no different.

          1. LisaD*

            Good point. There’s definitely a “complain to a third party not to the person you have issues with” culture in the office, mostly because complainers who get upset at another person’s behavior are seen as spoilsports if the other person is popular. I think that’s a major underlying issue we need to work on. Unfortunately it’s the standard techbro workplace where the things usually being complained about are ribald humor and sexist jokes. I think the process for bringing those things up has been generalized to “the way you give another person feedback is to talk confidentially to a third party, usually HR.” Maybe HR and I need to work on a better process–I don’t feel comfortable disclosing feedback HR has told me was given confidentially, but I could start putting my foot down that I won’t act on it unless the other person is willing to be a part of the conversation.

            1. Observer*

              I think you absolutely need to put your foot down. It’s not a terribly healthy way to deal with things. It’s also unfair to the person who is being complained about. And, it puts you in an impossible situation.

              Of course, with the other stuff, you also need to figure out a way to keep this from coming back to haunt the “complainer”. It’s tricky, but you need to make sure that if someone complains about sexist jokes, they don’t suddenly start facing subtle (or not so subtle) retaliation such as being frozen out etc.

              That’s something you should be working with HR on, because, aside from the hit to morale, this is the kind of thing that results in law suits. And keep in mind that law suits are expensive even when you win. It also turns out that people often sue (or go to the DOL) when they feel like they haven’t been treated right regardless of the objective facts of the case. So, if people commonly feel like they have to swallow this kind thing, the chances of things going sour go up. And the chances of follow through by the DOL, EEOC or a lawyer go up as well.

    5. mander*

      I think it is quite rude, especially the “not my jam” thing. That strikes me as really inappropriate for work.

  156. Feo Takahari*

    I’m pretty sure I just had some kind of panic attack over some angry customers. It was just a five-dollar difference between the posted price and the price they paid, but the assistant manager didn’t have the code to change the price in the system, and they just got angrier and angrier. The room kept looking darker and darker, and I was having trouble breathing. First I called security (ouch), then I gave them their five dollars back and said I’d replace it out of my bank account (double ouch), then I said I was going to the bank and walked out (triple ouch.) We’re both in trouble now, but the AM says she’ll back up my decision to call security, so it could be worse.

    I seriously need a better coping strategy for when I panic like this. I can’t always hide in the back of the store (like I did when our now-ex employee was screaming profanities at our colleague–long story.)

    1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

      Are you getting any kind of medical or therapeutic help for this? I get panic attacks sometimes and they suck super hard. It sounds like it might be worth talking to a doctor, if you’re able.

    2. Joanna*

      That does sound like a panic attack. Don’t be too hard on yourselves, such things are pretty common. It might be worth having a chat to other staff about how they deal with angry customers or if you can afford it getting a couple of sessions with a psychologist to help you learn some coping strategies.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry this happened to you–dealing with rude and irate customers is never fun.

    4. Bigglesworth*

      This definitely sounds like a panic attack. I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this! My spouse used to deal with them on a frequent basis, but they started going to a doctor and were put on medication and some supplements (fish oil and B12 to be exact). It’s made a world of difference! It’s been about 4 months since the last attack and they’re just happier all around.

  157. Kimmy*

    Hi everyone! I have a question that my husband and I have been arguing about. Hope I’m not too late for this weeks thread!

    Back in September, I interviewed for a job with a foundation. I had one phone interview and it was clearly not a match. They emailed to let me know that I was not moving forward in the process.

    Fast forward to now, I have a new awesome position and the team that I work for is about to get a huge award from that same foundation. I’m not directly working on the grant but I’m on the team that will be implementing the work.

    So question is this: should I reach out to the foundation and let them know where I ended up and that they are funding the team I know work on? I would potentially like to work for them someday and wonder if this is a good way to cultivate a connection there. On the other hand, maybe it’s reaching? Any advice is very much appreciated!

    1. Laura*

      That sounds like reaching, especially since you said the job was clearly not a match. I would leave it be, and if you apply to that foundation in the future, you can mention that you participated on the team that implemented the grant.

    2. Joanna*

      I think it would be unwise. I know you probably don’t mean it this way, but it could come across as arrogantly communicating “look at the awesomeness you turned down!”. Instead I’d suggest putting as much effort as you can at delivering amazingly on the grant project so that if you apply there again you have an example of your work that will have credibility with them.

    3. NicoleK*

      Sometimes foundations will require site visits for grantees. It may be a great opportunity to introduce yourself to the foundation staff.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would let the interview go for now. Change the goal to just interacting with them and showing your best professional self. Give it some time to allow actual relationships to grow.

      You might get a second shot at this on a different day.
      You might discover information that makes you change your mind.
      They might approach you at some point.
      So there is more than one possibility here. I would let everything just incubate for a while.

  158. Lindsay J*

    So, I got written up on a “final written warning” last week. In reality, this was the first warning, but the issues were deemed serious enough to call it a final, and leave me a step away from termination.

    I started the job in December. In March, my doctor had me try a new anti-depressant, and one of the side effects of this particular drug was that it made me very sleepy. One of the days after I started taking it, I slept through two alarms and instead of making it in to work at 5AM like I was scheduled to be, I didn’t come in until 11AM.

    My manager yelled at me at the time, but there was no mention of a writeup. However, apparently according to the attendance policy, being more than an hour late with no call counts as a n0-call-no-show and I could have been fired.

    Then last month (May) I either had an issue with food poisoning or caught a stomach virus or something at work. I felt very ill all of a sudden and kind of jumped up and ran to the bathroom as quickly as possible. (I work in an airport, and went upstairs to the bathroom in the terminal because the woman’s room where my office is has one toilet that leaks, and one stall that doesn’t have a locking mechanism on it.) I left my phone there because I was more concerned about making it to the bathroom on time. I wound up being away from my desk for close to 2 hours – for 1 1/2 hours I was either actively being sick, or still felt so ill I didn’t want to chance leaving the stall. Then I went to another terminal to buy some Imodium and some gatorade, then returned to work.

    When I returned to work, I found out that the site manager had been very concerned about me disappearing but leaving my phone. He had one of the other workers check the terminals upstairs for me, and he had called my manager to find out what my car looked like to see if it was still there (my keys were left sitting on my desk along with my phone so I don’t know what finding my car would have done.) Again, my manager yelled at me, but no mention of a writeup until now when they had me sign it 2 weeks later.

    And I know I screwed up badly on these two incidents and should have given someone on-site a heads-up. Unfortunately that’s impossible when you’re asleep, and I just wasn’t thinking when I felt ill.

    I just don’t know what my next move should be at this point.

    I feel like I got off on the wrong foot with my manager to begin with, and I don’t really have much interaction with him to try and get back on his good side. He works at a different location, we don’t have phone check-ins or anything like that, and whenever I email him with a question he refers me to someone else. All in all he and I might have an email conversation every other week.

    He had the site manager have me sign the write-up and email it back to him. The site manager seems to like me a lot. He can be a bit of a micro-manager sometimes, however, since I am not his direct report he doesn’t try to micromanage me very much and generally lets me do my thing. However, since he was not the one writing me up he didn’t have much info to give me.

    I emailed my manager and asked him how thin ice I am on – if as long as I am sure to report my whereabouts am I okay, or am I going to be fired if I have to call out sick or get a flat tire on the way to work or something. I didn’t get a response prior to the end of the day. I also asked if bringing in a doctor’s note would help, and said that I understood if it wouldn’t because it wouldn’t negate the fact that I didn’t call.

    I just don’t know what to do from here? Just keep my head down and make sure I show up when I’m supposed to and tell the site manager when I’m leaving for lunch etc and hope for the best? Start looking for other jobs?

    FWIW my job is terribly boring. Like I have maybe 2 1/2 hours of work to do in a 40 hour week. The rest of my time is spent basically surfing the internet. My manager knows this, and I’ve asked him for suggestions on things I can do and he’s basically just told me to look busy. He was trying to get more work sent my way but another department is holding things up. I was also told when I started that things were supposed to pick up as the location I’m at got busier, but that hasn’t happened yet.

    I initially wanted to stay with the company for like 3 years to build up some stability on my resume (I left my last job right at 1 year because this job offered much better pay and benefits for much less work) and to vest the company matching on my 401K. But at this point I don’t know if leaving ASAP (or after a year?) to avoid the chance of being fired would be a better bet.

    Or do I try to fix things here? If so, how?

    1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

      This sounds really nerve-wracking. I’m sorry you have to deal with it. I’d want to try to stay and recover, but I’m not sure exactly how to go about it. Maybe by documenting the Rx issue that led to the oversleeping? I’m sure someone will have more specific advice. But my feeling is this isn’t something you can’t come back from. Good luck.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Talk to your manager in person. I wouldn’t want to respond to that email in writing; that’s an in-person conversation! (To explain that further, he’s not going to want “no, you won’t be fired for calling in sick” to be in writing in case there’s some egregious incident that they do think warrants firing, beyond the routine call-in kind of thing.)

      On Monday, ask if you can talk, express your commitment to the job, etc.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I can’t talk to him in person as he’s at another location, and even phone calls are difficult due to differences in working hours, his travel schedule, etc.

        My email did include me acknowledging that I have been a pretty shitty employee to this point and expressing my commitment to the job.

        I did figure as much wrt putting a response to something like that in writing. I was honestly kind of hoping for him to respond with an offer to set up a time to talk via phone (though I guess I could have just requested that to begin with). I did get a relatively positive email back that basically said if I didn’t do anything stupid in the future then I would be fine, but if there was another egregious incident they would have to fire me.

        He also included some positive feedback about my work quality and work ethic as whole so I am feeling better about the whole thing – I really hadn’t gotten any feedback at all as to the kind of employee I was perceived as up to this point so I was really worried that his entire perception of me was “The girl that overslept and left her team in a jam.” Now I know that he knows that I’m “the employee who does good work but also had some attendance/communication issues”, I feel a lot better about the whole thing because I feel like I have some type of reputation to build on to recover from. Prior to this I wasn’t even entirely sure how much – if any – of my work he had seen or knew about since he is very hands off in regards to his entire approach, and I hadn’t received any feedback about it.

        I also got the information as to what my end-of-the year review will be based on – they have a rubric basically – which also helps.

  159. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

    I have a hypothetical for y’all. I interviewed for a job today (argh and I hope I get it argh), and one of the interviewers is an elected official (city council). He represents the district I live in; I totally voted for him and will almost certainly do so again if/when he runs for reelection in a couple years. I didn’t realize he worked for this organization till after I’d applied. Anyway, he’s a neat person whose politics I admire (we had an Elect This Guy sign in our yard before the election) and he works for an organization I’d like very much to work for.

    If I get the job and still have it when reelection time rolls around, will it be weird if I donate to his campaign? I always do write a check or two to my favored city council candidate, and he’d be that, but…would that be uncool? He wouldn’t be my boss but he’d certainly be senior to me. It’s not really possible to make campaign contributions anonymously, I imagine.

    Like I said, totally just a weird hypothetical that wouldn’t even kick in for almost four years, but I was wondering. Thanks!

    1. Joanna*

      I wouldn’t. Even if it’s something you’ve been doing for years and there’s no intention to manipulate, it could look very bad for both him and you if it gets discovered. It would be very hard to prove that subsequent actions that were good for you in the workplace weren’t related to the donation. Are there other organisations working on the issues you care about you could donate to instead?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Stop donating. It’s going to look like you paid to get/keep your job.

        1. Tyrannosaurus Regina*

          Oh, I’m not donating now; I’m just speculating about whether that would be odd several years from now. Thanks! (And I agree it would look strange, now that I see it in writing.)

  160. Gina the Conqueror*

    I’m the admin assistant at a non-profit, but have progressively taken on more development/fundraising projects (and loved it). The development specialist position with the agency is currently vacant, and I am handling things in the interim. I am looking for a new job, and I have an interview next week for a development position. On my application, I noted that I am the interim development specialist, to help solidify that I have development experience, as my title doesn’t indicate that (though administrative assistant is a bit of a misnomer, anyway).

    Now, I worry that in the interview, they will ask me why I am not pursuing the open development position at my current agency. Since I obviously can’t tell them that the agency makes me crazy and is being run into the ground by leadership, what do I say? That they want someone with more experience? (True–but won’t that make my experience sound inadequate?) That my boss won’t consider letting me leave my current position? (Also true–but does that sound like I’m badmouthing my boss?) What would be a good way to answer this question?

    Is this even something to worry about?

    1. Joanna*

      Are there things about the organisation or role you’re applying for that make it a more interesting opportunity? It might be better to emphasise those.

    2. Colette*

      Are you applying with companies that work with your current organization? I doubt most places will check to see if your current organization is hiring. But if they ask that question, you need something true but polite – for example, you want to get experience/learn new things at a new organization.

    3. Gina the Conqueror*

      Thanks, Joanna and Colette! You’ve given me some good things to brainstorm on.

  161. Anna*

    Is there a way to handle snarky comments/behavior in a professional manner? My work place is mostly men and it is very ‘mens club’ and snarky. I mostly keep quiet, but then they think I’m being antisocial or rude, because next thing I know I seem to be the target. I don’t want to get in trouble for saying something snarky back, but I don’t know how to respond.

    1. Colette*

      Are they mean comments, or good-natured? I’m assuming mean. One option is to take them calmly but seriously – I.e. “What do you mean?” “I don’t understand, can you explain?” “Wow.” “Why do you say that?” “I don’t find that funny.” “Please stop saying that.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Don’t go there!”– when something is clearly not for workplace conversation

      Not the best idea in the world but maybe you can get on good terms with one of them and that will help to get them all to settle down as the one friendly person tells them to knock it off.

  162. Alice*

    At work right now there is a woman in our department who is generally seen as the department rock star, which she definitely is. I think she is better at the job than I am, but right now I’m handling the smaller tasks and I think that works well as there’s not much conflict over the distribution of minor tasks (which I like to take care of). However, I think management and the rest of the staff tend to see me as significantly less competent than I am – for example, in meetings sometimes my manager will stop in the middle of explaining something and ask if I understand, and usually I think I do. Or another example – one day I was sorting data in Excel as my manager and I were going though how to do a task, and she exclaimed that [rockstar] must really be teaching me some new things, but it was something I already knew how to do when I took the job. When people ask me a question at my desk, [rockstar] usually interrupts as I’m answering to tell them the same thing I would have said. Now most people usually come directly to her when they have a question. Part of me doesn’t mind because I have a lot of social anxiety, but part of me is frustrated and worried that people in the office think of me as incompetent or at least a little slow. I’m worried that my lack of confidence/anxiety is reading as stupidity – our manager is a very outspoken person, as is [rockstar]. I’m trying to work on my confidence and anxiety but it’s a long process and something that’s not easy to just fix. Is there anything anyone thinks I can do in the meantime to show people I know what I’m talking about? Is this something I can even bring up with my manager?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think you can try a few things here:

      1) When manager stops in a meeting to ask you if you understand, don’t just say “yes”, cover some of what they’ve been saying and expand on it a bit in reply to them. So, say manager is talking about the goal of trying to push into a particular retailer. “Sure, if we can get Chocolate Teapots in for a promo at Tea Cozies, we’ll expand our market base and brand recognition because Cozies customers are a different demographic than our current primary markets have.”

      2) When [rockstar] interrupts to give the answer you already know, shrug and say “She said what I was going to say, so there you go.” – what you’re doing here is establishing that you actually *had* the knowledge and she didn’t just interrupt to cover for you.

      3) “Ooh, [rockstar] must really be teaching you some new things!” a slightly bemused look and “Hmmm? Oh, no, this was one of the skills I brought with me. I’ve been doing this 8 or 9 years now.” Again, what you’re doing is establishing the knowledge pre-existed, so you’re not magically improving overnight – this is part of why they hired you.

      4) This might be a little clunkier, but at some point you could say to [rockstar] “Hey, it’s okay. I’ve got this. You don’t need to answer for me, don’t worry about this, okay?” And here, you’re politely drawing a boundary that says “this is my area. please keep out.”

      Because all of this has happened over time, you can pretty much expect that a) it’s going to take a long and steady road of doing some of this stuff to reverse the traction, and b) what will happen is that people will credit you with having learned so much while you’re there. At which point, you can let the impression go or say something along the lines of “Yes, I’ve learned some stuff, but one of the main things I learned is that I wasn’t expressing myself well, so it appeared that I knew less than I did. Learning how to fix that has been my biggest challenge.”

      2. Alice*

        Thanks, these are all really great suggestions! I especially like #1 – now that you mentioned that I think I have seen this strategy used pretty effectively by other employees, so I’m definitely going to try it out. I think #2 would be a bit harder in my situation since people tend to walk over to her desk as she’s explaining, so by the time I got that comment in I’d have to sort of awkwardly interrupt them. Thanks for the feedback!

    2. Bigglesworth*

      Hey Alice! Just to start off with – you are not alone in this. I’m on the other side of this situation (in that I’m probably in the role of what you’ve labelled as “rockstar” and I have a quieter coworker who has called me the office “favorite” before even though she is equally competent) and will tell you that I feel terrible for my quieter counterpart! Here’s my two cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit. :)

      First of all, this is something that you should totally bring up to your manager! I would phrase it like this, “Hey Manager. There’s been something I’ve been meaning to ask you. I’m trying to be more outspoken/confident and was wondering if there was anything that you might recommend to help me in this process.” or “Hey Manager! I have a quick question for you – I noticed that you seem (outspoken, confident in work, or other skill that you’re working on that you’re manager has) and was wondering how you’ve honed that skill. I’m working on this and would like to get better.” or some such thing in your own words. :) I would also mention to your manager that you would appreciate it if she didn’t single you out during meetings to ask if you understand and that you’ll bring up any questions that you have either in the moment or later as they come up.

      You can also gently correct people when they say, “Rockstar must have shown you this!” by simply stating, “Actually, I taught this to myself. I thought it was pretty nifty how it worked with ABC systems.” Or put in whatever is relevant in your situation. You can say this in such a way as to not be braggy.

      You also should talk to your coworker about the interrupting habit. I know I interrupt (working on it), but I also try to go back and apologize because my coworker has mentioned it. Your coworker may not even realize she’s doing this and will put it to a screeching halt once you bring it up to her. You could say something like, “Hey Rockstar. There’s something that I’ve been thinking about that I wanted to talk with you about. I love that you’re always so helpful, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn’t interrupt me when I’m trying to assist someone. I know you’re trying to help out, but I feel like it reflects badly on me when people come to me with questions and you answer for me. I promise I’ll come to you if I need your help or if there’s a question that I know you’ll be the perfect person to answer it.” That way she realizes you’re not trying to be adversarial, but you’ve told her that this bothers you. If she does interrupt after that, you can remind her, “Hey Rockstar. Thanks for the input, but I think I’ve got this one covered.” Repeat as needed.

      As far as letting people know that you know what you’re talking about, I think that so long as you do an excellent job, people will trust you to know what you’re talking about. I know for my quieter coworker (who trained me to do my job when I first started) she has continually worked hard, been good at her job, and has been reliable. I try to give her the accolades when they come in and really should be directed towards her or build her up in front of our clients, but it’s really her own work that has given her her reputation.

      It sounds like there need to be some conversations in your future with your boss and coworker. If there is anything that this blog and Alison have taught me, it’s that no one is a mind reader and that these types of conversations are usually what need to happen to move forward in a situation. Good luck!

      1. Alice*

        Thanks, it’s nice to have the perspective of someone on the other side of this issue! I definitely felt you articulated perfectly why her interruptions bother me a little – it does reflect badly on me and I do think she just doesn’t realize how it’s coming across. I think I will just explain it to her that way next time it happens – I actually enjoy her company a lot too so have been looking for a polite way to tell her to stop interrupting.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          You’re welcome! I think being one of the sides of this is frustrating. You definitely have valid complaints and sometimes people are oblivious to how others feel. On the other hand, I know that I wish my coworker would more openly talk with me so I know how to help her better (even I that’s just by being quiet :) ).

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      The advantage you have in dealing with this situation is that Rockstar IS competent and you like her. It’s easy for you to be genuine when talking to manager and Rockstar and not come across as jealous.

      I think you can come out with a win talking to both parties individually. Just be honest and ask for an assist.

    4. NicoleK*

      I’m in agreement with other posters. That said, in my experience, “rock stars” never stay long in their positions. They’re typically promoted quickly or leave the company all together, so you may still have time to shine.

  163. PK*

    I have a dilemma. I have a boss who is terrible and inappropriate. She’s having a birthday party for her 10 year old daughter and myself and all my co workers were invited. My co workers are all bringing gifts and when I tentatively mentioned, “Isn’t that a little strange?” one co worker said, “Yeah it is but you gotta play the game!”
    He’s totally right.
    The only ppl who are attending and bringing gifts are the people who have been promoted by boss.

    So knowing this is all Not Right, this is my job right now– I WANT to just not go, but should I play this game and bring a gift to the party to make this job tolerable while I still have to have it?

    1. Joanna*

      Can you arrange to have something else on that overlaps with the party time so you have a good excuse to leave early?

    2. Bigglesworth*

      I think it depends, but I wouldn’t go if I were you. You could have a family emergency, long-standing appointment at that time, or something else that conveniently takes up that slot of time. You can still be gracious about the invitation and maybe even get a card or something, but I wouldn’t buy a gift.

      I’m also in a situation at work were things are not as they should be and totally get feeling like you need to go with the flow when it comes with stuff like this. I have the opinion that I’ll stand up for stuff that others can’t for whatever reason asking questions of my managers like, “I will go into overtime if….., how would you like me to handle that?” or “I’m not sure if you realized this, but this policy that we talked about in xyz meeting goes against discrimination laws.” This doesn’t work for everyone and not everyone can do that.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Q: You said “while I still have to have it”. Do you want/need the promotion? Because if your sense is that people who don’t play the game don’t get fired, they just don’t get promoted, that might help sort out how you feel about playing this particular game.

    4. Observer*

      It depends.

      Do you have any good prospects for a new job? Does not playing the game put your job at risk, or just promotions? If promotions, how important are those promotions?

      This is wrong on many levels, but I don’t think that you have any obligation to fight it. So, you need to figure out what works best for you. On the other hand, it feels close enough to outright bribery that I can see refusing to go along with it.

  164. Rad Radost*

    I’ve been revamping the company’s new hire training (a glorified powerpoint) for readability, dated information, and a miscellany of minor concerns. One page about pay & benefits noted that discussion of payment between coworkers would not be tolerated (which, as noted above and many times previously, is straight-up illegal for most positions).

    I quietly deleted said note and shuffled the information. Today, management checked my work and approved my updated version.

    The likelihood anyone will notice my edit is virtually nil. I’m not worried and I could back it up with the law. However, getting away with a smidge of rebel justice made me feel pretty good.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Best — it will be interesting if someone else notices it later and wants it restored

  165. Hiding in my boss's office*

    Going anonymous for this one. We were on lockdown for a couple of hours on Wednesday because of a shooting (I’m sure everyone has heard about it by now). Those of us in cubicles found offices to hide in – I hide in my boss’s office (he was away that day). Fortunately, the situation didn’t turn out to be a mass shooting but we didn’t know that at the time. I could hear helicopters overhead and when I looked out the window, I could see police and swat officers gathering outside.

    My family and I are not the emotional type. Afterwards, my parents asked me if I was scared during the lockdown, and I was like “oh, please”. Students/staff who had seen armed officers running down the halls or who had to jimmy-rig a lock on an unlocking classroom door – I’m sure those people were scared. But me? In my boss’s huge office alone on an upper floor? Nah, I wasn’t scared a bit. I just wanted the lockdown to be over soon because I had to pee.

    Listening to people discuss the event the next day was a drag. It was tiring answering questions like “where were you? where did you hide? did you get the emergency alert?” over and over again. Walking briskly past the news crew as they tried to get a soundbite. And my coworkers/faculty who kept talking about it – I kept thinking “don’t you have some work to do?”. Nobody cares that you were hiding in this office or you did or did not get the alert.

    However, over the past couple of days, I’ve come to truly understand that this is the way people cope. They’re trying to make sense of it all, even though there are no answers. My theory in life is that pretty much everyone is socially awkward anyway, so when a tragedy like this happens, people don’t know what to say or what to talk about but this. That’s their way of coping. My way of coping just happens to be focusing on the work that needs to be done. Neither is the wrong or the right way to cope.

    That’s all I wanted to share…

    1. Colette*

      I agree that people are just trying to cope.

      I think when we hear about a crisis situation, everyone naturally focuses on the big emotions (e.g. Fear), but I suspect a lot of people are simultaneously annoyed by the inconveniences such as needing the bathroom.

      I’m glad it wasn’t worse.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am glad you are okay. Yep, it’s their coping tool to talk about it and it’s a good coping tool, too. However, you don’t need to do that because of [reasons]. I saw plenty of people just go about their work day the day the WTC got hit. Not disrespectful to the people involved but because there was truly nothing they could do about it EXCEPT give a big FU to the terrorists by going about their day and their lives. And those people who continued working did comfort some people as they sent out a quiet message of we will continue on. I think that both reactions, practical or emotional, meet needs in our society.

    4. Anxa*

      I get pretty awkward at work during emergency drills. I work in a college, but feel no sense of protectiveness toward my students. At the risk of sounding callous, I just don’t make enough money. And it’s not the money per se, but it’s pretty clear that I’m a part-time, tenuous employee with no benefits. And that does mean that I don’t feel as strongly connected to being part of the staff and faculty. I do give a lot of myself into the job, but there’s a bit of a wall that means I never feel like it’s my duty or calling or even the right thing to do to protect students.

      That said, I do still feel…oddly guilty and responsible when an incident or false alarm affects my ability to do my job. I tend to focus mostly on how to recoup lost time and get back on track, which does help me cope with it. They do get to me a bit; I’m pretty sensitive. But again, I knew what I was getting into working in a school.

  166. Quit Job While Interviewing?*

    I’m currently in a very unbearable work environment. For the better part of a year I have worked under a department head who has given me little to no direction and when issues arise he places the blame squarely on me. My coworkers and counterparts at head office are very rude when emailing or speaking with me WHEN they actually speak to me. I have been excluded from meetings and taken off of projects without being informed. Ultimately I know they would like to fire me though I’m not sue why they haven’t already. Why keep an employee you clearly do not value? I have been interviewing with two companies. One of which has completed the interview process and is now making their decision. The other I have one more interview to do but they have all but promised me the job. I’m curious if I quit my current role how that looks to the two companies I’m interviewing with should they reach out for employment verification. I don’t want it to seem like I lied. I just really can’t deal with any more of this workplace abuse. Any insight would be great!

    1. Jules the First*

      Don’t quit until you have accepted an offer and have a start date. If one of these jobs you’re interviewing for pans out, then you just have a few more weeks to hang on. If both fall through, you’ll be glad you still have a pay check.

      Hang in there – the end is in sight!

    2. Colette*

      How many months will you survive if you don’t get either job? How will you explain quitting without a job lined up?

    3. NicoleK*

      Ideally, it would be best to stay in your position until you get another offer. But you know your situation best.

    4. CAA*

      If the potential new employers reach out to your current company for employment verification after you leave, they’re going to find out your departure date. Presumably they can easily see that this date is after the date that they started interviewing you, and after the date that you filled out their application and submitted a resume, so it is not going to look like you lied on either of those documents.

      If you do quit and then you have additional interviews with these same companies, then you don’t have to bring up the fact that you’ve already left your previous employer unless you are asked if you’re working there and why you want to leave. In that case, you just say “actually, my position there ended last week.”

      After you quit, then please do update your resume to have an actual end date. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been interviewing someone and found out that even though the printed resume they just handed to me as they sat down says their employment dates for the most recent job are “xx to present”, they actually left there more than 3 months ago. That always feels dishonest, and like they were hoping I wouldn’t ask about it.

  167. Mander*

    The project that I’ve been working on since January ended yesterday and I want to update my CV. What’s a concise way of saying that you became the go-to person for a core function of the whole project, even though there is no title associated with the role you took on?

    This project involved a massive amount of drawing and recording a particular kind of structure (the reason why we excavated it in the first place). We had a small team that was in charge of nearly all of this recording, and although I was just another staff member on paper in reality I ended up becoming the second in command for the recording team. In fact most people came to me with questions and to coordinate various aspects of the excavation and recording process, rather than the actual supervisor. This was a major reason why said supervisor heavily recommended me for a contract extension when other people were being laid off, in fact — in his words I “demonstrated that I could take charge” when he wasn’t there (and sometimes even when he was!).

    So how can I put this on my CV without suggesting that I had a title or role which didn’t exist? My mind is going blank.

    1. Joanna*

      If this is an application that includes a cover letter, I suspect it’s something you can better explain in the cover letter than a resume bullet point

      1. Mander*

        The only thing is that in my field we rarely do cover letters or even interviews. I’m not looking for a new job just at the moment but I like to update my CV every time a project finishes so that I remember what I did!

    2. Colette*

      This is an accomplishment. For example, “coordinated the recording process for X” or “led the recording team to achieve Y”. What did you do that someone else in the role didn’t? That’s your accomplishment.

    3. CAA*

      – Took on the acting supervisor role during x-month absence of lead supervisor (or while lead supervisor was assigned to yyy other task/team). Stepped into a leadership role and provided extensive support and coordination of excavation and recording process for the entire project, consisting of xx individuals.

  168. interviewing new boss*

    I’ve been invited to participate in interviews of the candidates for my new boss. I’ve never been in a position to be able to participate in these types of interviews of the person I will be directly reporting to. Any suggestions or advice on the types of questions to ask?

    1. SophieChotek*

      If you will be directly reporting to that person–maybe ask about management style?

      Also if you are comfortable enough with someone else on committee who has done these interviews before ask for advice.

      Similarly, do you have a coworker that got to interview the person they were going to report to — what did they wish they’d asked (but didn’t think to ask) or were glad they did ask?

      [sorry, meant to reply below, but somehow started a new thread; I manage to do this at least once a week latey]

    2. NicoleK*

      For starters, I would ask about management style, decision making process, how they provide feedback to direct reports, and their priorities for the first 90 days.

      1. interviewing new boss*

        Thanks, NicoleK. I was planning to ask about management style, but didn’t think about including a separate question regarding how feedback is provided. While I consider that part of management style, it certainly deserves a separate question. I was struggling with a way to phrase a question about how the person would initially spend their time acclimating to the role, but I like your phrasing about priorities for the first 90 days.

    3. CAA*

      I replied with some links to Alison’s previous posts on this topic. I think my response is in moderation, but you could use the search box in the upper right to search for “interviewing prospective manager”.

  170. SophieChotek*

    If you will be directly reporting to that person–maybe ask about management style?

    Also if you are comfortable enough with someone else on committee who has done these interviews before ask for advice.

    Similarly, do you have a coworker that got to interview the person they were going to report to — what did they wish they’d asked (but didn’t think to ask) or were glad they did ask?

  171. Priss*

    I work in local government and have been a supervisor of a department for a bit over a year now. Before becoming a supervisor I took many vacations and never felt the need to check my emails or otherwise know what was going on. Now, though I still try to take off at least a full week a year as well as taking one Friday off a month, I am having trouble walking away from the work mindset. I am pretty low in the management chain and there is absolutely no expectation that I will check my emails while I am on vacation, but I am finding it hard to relax and enjoy my time off. I know I can’t keep going this way, I am heading towards a burnout as it is. And its not that I don’t trust my employees. My whole department is excellent and I know they can handle my absence just fine.

    I would love to hear from more experienced supervisors/managers about work/life balance, especially any tips to keep from having work intrude on my vacation. I want to be able to just walk away without worrying that I am going to miss something important if I am not glued to my email all day.

    1. NicoleK*

      One thing I did to maintain work/life balance was to not forward my work emails to my cell phone. Old Boss was fine with that. But it would depend on your boss.

      As a worker bee, I had no problems maintaining work/life balance. It was more of a challenge when I moved into management. I felt like I couldn’t take time off because so much was going on and taking time off just lead to more stress.

  172. Unexpected Next Step*

    I’ve just completed what I thought would be my third and final interview with the company. At this point I have met with everyone critical person on the team. As I’m walking out it’s sprung on me that there’s another step…meeting with the President of the company and again with HR. I’m rather annoyed because it’s actually a very busy time at my current company and I live 2 hours away (with traffic) from the place I’m interviewing. It hasn’t been easy to take time away. I have been trying to think of a polite way to clarify the timing of and what exactly all remaining next steps are. I’m naturally interviewing with other companies, one of which I’m waiting on a final decision. Is it worth it to mention that? I don’t want to use that offer as leverage but I do think they should know if the other company job offers me I’m taking it. Overall I just think 4 interviews is frustrating and the fact that weeks pass between rounds makes it worse. It’s one of my red flags about the company…the amount of time it would take for approvals and projects to move forward as everything has to pass through head office which is in London.

    1. ManagerLady23*

      I would tell them you’re close to an offer on the other job. Offer to do a phone or Skype interview with the next rounds. See if that would work instead.

  173. ManagerLady23*

    I’m a new manager at my company (about 3 months in). Not a new manager in general. There’s another peer manager who uses my team for projects who just complains and acts like we are the worst team in the world. He’ll go to MY manager about my employees without going to them or to me first. Almost every time he does, it’s something we have little to no control over – or something that my team had already remedied in the time it took for him to complain. Luckily, my manager supports us and sees him as difficult. But what can I do instead of just react when he’s on the rampage? How can I protect my team from his comments without micromanaging them? Help!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ask your boss if the three of you can have a sit down meeting where you explain to your peer what you have explained here. Tell your boss you are interested in finding a way to handle the complaints differently with the goal of reducing the number of complaints.

  174. Quagga*

    I’ve been working at a new job for a year now, and it’s been going amazingly. Great coworkers, interesting work, dynamic work environment. *Very* dynamic work environment, by which I mean an open concept office, lots of cross-chatter, and a busy team chat room (Slack). It can drive me crazy sometimes, but I figured I was mostly okay with it. I’m currently working at home to catch up on some stuff and the sense of peace and productivity I feel being able to work in a quiet environment without distractions compared to in the office is incredible. Working over the weekend isn’t fun, but this has been very eye-opening…

  175. YRH*

    Two questions

    1. If you have an interview on a Friday, is it better to send your thank you note over the weekend or on Monday?

    2. Last week, I had an interview that I think went well. They said that I should expect to hear from them in 2-3 weeks. The job can be located in either the town I live in or a town 3 hours away, though most of the team members are in the town 3 hours away. Coincidentally, I will be in the town 3 hours away for a day next week. Should I let them know I will be in the town or is that too aggressive/pushy?

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Audiophile*

      #1 I’ve waited until late Sunday night or early Monday morning to send it.

      #2 I think it’s a little too aggressive.

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