open thread – September 2-3, 2016

by Alison Green on September 2, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,394 comments }

{ 1,394 comments… read them below }

  1. Anon ymous Admin Assistant*

    I have a Friday morning laugh for everyone:

    I’m an administrative assistant at a university. I know this isn’t true of everyone who has a PhD but my boss constantly reminds everyone that he has one and how smart and knowledgeable this makes him. I don’t have a degree (though I’m currently earning a B.A. part time in the evening) and my boss talks down to me all the time. He does this to everyone who he thinks is not as smart as him and those without a university education get it the worst. I haven’t quit because 1) I get a discount on my classes because I work here so I can afford pay as I go without taking loans 2) I can work my schedule around my classes no problem and 3) I get along great with everyone besides my boss.

    Earlier this morning someone emailed my boss a PDF document. When he opened it the pages were upside down because of how the sender had fed it into their scanner. In order to read the document my brilliant, intelligent boss (who had a PhD) physically turned his computer screen upside down. It was all I could do not to burst out laughing in front of him and once I left his office I laughed so hard that my sides hurt and people were asking if I was okay. If my boss wasn’t a jerk I would have showed him the rotate feature and not laughed at him. But as he always points out, he has a PhD and I don’t have any degree at all so he must know better than I do.

    Happy Friday everyone!

    3. Audiophile*

      No! No way! That is a new one.

      There was a panic in my office the other day about a PDF being upside down. I said nothing, but no one turned their screens upside down. Though a few heads may have rotated to read it.

    4. CollegeAdmin*

      I too work at a college. Back when I was an admin assistant (now in IT), I came across 3 faculty members completely bamboozled by our coffee maker. I had been there 2 months and didn’t drink coffee, but I read the directions posted on the wall above it and lo and behold, got it to make coffee for them.

      I didn’t get a “thank you;” instead they all said to each other, “Wow you need a PhD to operate this thing!” I had to bite my tongue to not point out that each of them had one and I only had a B.A.

      1. Altobot*

        oh man, at last job there was one day where only two people were in the office: CEO and new guy (who didn’t drink coffee). CEO wanted coffee made and tasked new guy with it. This guy had literally never touched a coffee machine in his life. He figured it out thanks to google, but CEO advised they didn’t know how to operate this particular coffee machine, despite it having been in our office for about three years at that time, and making coffee at home daily for themselves.
        CEO also often bragged about their Masters degree. But couldn’t figure out how to print documents on their own, probably also rotated their laptop for .pdf’s that were sideways, etc. It was exhausting.

    6. Temperance*

      lol my friends and me have a code for that kind of behavior – we call that “going to Cornell”. As in, did you know that X went to Cornell?

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        We’ve got a code at work which we say as ID Ten T, but is written Id10t and also picnic error (Problem in chair not in computer)

        6. LizB*

          I haven’t heard picnic before either! (I have heard of a pebcak error – problem exists between chair and keyboard.)

        8. Margali*

          I just shared the term “picnic” with the IT person at my office, and she cracked up and said she’s going to start using it immediately. (I told her that my providing her with the term would hopefully make up for a few picnics I’ve invited her to over the years. Got a grin and a wink.)

        4. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Whoa, no, we don’t do that here — neither the grammar correction nor the rudeness. Please read the commenting guidelines linked about the comment box before commenting again. Thank you.

      3. Dave*

        OH! I worked with a guy who went to Cornell (a bit of a rarity as I am in Canada) and this was totally a thing. Every chance he got, it was, “Well, at Cornell…”

          1. Is it Friday Yet?*

            I’m re-watching The Office now, and can definitely picture his character behaving like this.

          2. Temperance*

            That’s totally the joke I was making. (ALSO, this morning, there was 100% a man on the bus wearing a women’s suit. I lost it.)

        2. Dez*

          Our vet went to Cornell. He never mentions it- I only know from his bio on the website. I’m in Canada as well.
          He’s super sweet and our dogs adore him. He gets down on the floor with them and utilizes a lot of treats. The boys think they go there for massages and snacks. He loves them right back and frequently comments on how he can’t believe such awesome dogs wound up at the shelter.
          So, some nice guys go to Cornell too!

      4. Hlyssande*

        Which Cornell, though?

        I kid, I kid – I went to the Cornell in Iowa, not the Cornell in NY. We get a little touchy about that sometimes. :P

        2. Rob Lowe can't read*

          I had a friend in high school (I went to high school in Illinois) who chose Cornell (NY) for undergrad. My mother was convinced that my friend was actually going to Cornell (IA) and that she (my friend) was just confused. I was like, “Lucinda said it took her family X hours to drive to Cornell,” and my mom says “Oh, she must be mistaken, it only takes about Y hours to drive there because it’s in Iowa.” “Right, but the one Lucinda is going to is in New York.” “Hmm, I don’t think that’s the case.”

          So there is at least one non-Iowan, non-Cornell alum who considers the Cornell in Iowa to be The Cornell.

    8. Apollo Warbucks*

      That’s hilarious!

      Also my sister has a PhD and literally set fire to the kitchen trying to boil and egg

      2. Rat Racer*

        Well – I like to joke that I got an 800 on the logic section of the GRE, and yet my dog outsmarts me every day. Too bad for me that there’s no university coursework in common sense.

        1. Kiki*

          For my Ag major, the professors were huge fans of common sense and always included “real life” questions as bonus points. Often the bonus was half the score, so 50 pts on a 100 pts exam. Questions included: what was Hopalong Cassidy’s horse’s name? how do you know when to turn the pancake, and what is the first line in of the song Red River Valley. They were really fun!

          1. Loose Seal*

            Wait, those are pop culture questions, not common sense (not the pancake one, but the others). So you’d know the pop culture ones depending on what kind of background you came from. I have to say I’m not much of a fan of that, especially for half the score.

            The first test in my theater history class for my MFA, the professor added a bonus “common sense” question. Paraphrased, it was “What building, known for its lions, is at 5th Ave and 42nd?” And that was it! I hadn’t been anywhere really at that point in my life and this was before the internet. I’m sure I had seen the building on TV or in movies but usually those media don’t point out the address. I’m not even certain I knew at the time that that street address was in New York. (I may have because I’m sure I had heard of 5th Ave. by my early 20s.) Most of the people in the class got the right answer but I guessed the Lion House at the Zoo. Then the professor mocked me in front of the class when he returned the exam for not knowing that it’s the NY Public Library. (I made full marks on the exam anyway, without the bonus, but it infuriated me that you had to have had certain life experiences to be able to know that.)

            And clearly, since I’ve typed all this out, I still have feelings over this issue…

            1. MillersSpring*

              Cultural questions like these are not fair to a lot of people. They assume that everyone has had the same experiences and been exposed to the same opportunities.

              1. Kiki*

                I get what you are saying, but if you want to be an ag extension agent, you had better know the same cultural references as the ranchers you are trying to get to work with you. Sometimes, it’s part of the job.

                I was a big city kid, not a rancher’s kid, so I didn’t have the same opportunities but I didn’t have any problem at all with the questions. (Topper, that’s the horse — and that is why, if, in a stables, there is a big red gelding, chances are excellent his name will be Topper. They will expect you to know something like that. Also, who won the Derby last year.)

                And it may not be fair, but you could get the same A with 100 pts as with 150. It’s a bonus, not an exam question.

                1. Honeybee*

                  No, it’s not part of the job. Or rather, it shouldn’t be part of the job – I shouldn’t get shut out of an entire field because I don’t read early 20th century literature or listen to folk music.

                  People in my field, tech, try to make the same arguments. It’s just another way to police the field and make sure only a certain kind of person works in it.

                  Also, it’s still not fair as a bonus…a kid with a 70 on the test who has been exposed to those cultural learnings could get a 120 (and an A) whereas a kid who studied harder but doesn’t know the culture could get an 85 and get a B.

            2. Gazebo Slayer (formerly I'm a Little Teapot)*

              According to a Massachusetts school employee I know, there’s a Massachusetts test for 3rd graders that includes, or included at some point, a question about who the statues on the Boston Common represent. A kid from Boston might (*MIGHT*) know that, but some kids in the western part of the state have never even been to Boston. I’ve lived in Boston for years and wouldn’t have a clue.

              (Also, who cares?)

              1. Kiki*

                I’ve never even been to anywhere east of the Rockies and I would guess Washington. Am I right ? And I care, that’s one.

                1. Honeybee*

                  One of the statues is of George Washington, but there are multiple statues. And you are an adult. This is for 8 year olds. It’s not a relevant question to assess their knowledge on a state test.

              3. HoVertical*

                Gazebo Slayer, eh? Your name wouldn’t be…*Eric*…would it? (As in, “ERIC! IT’S A GAZEBO!”) :D

              4. Isabel C.*

                I was gonna say: no clue, and I’ve lived here about ten years myself.

                The statues and other such things (Freedom Trail etc) are in the category where, if you live here but didn’t grow up here and take field trips to wherever, chances are you won’t have seen them: that sort of thing is what tourists do, and really a source of people the rest of us have to navigate around on our way to work. I’m given to understand native LA-ers feel the same about the Hollywood attractions.

              5. Rob Lowe can't read*

                That seems like a weird question to put on the MCAS (old MA state standardized test), since it doesn’t have a social studies portion and the language arts section is mostly reading-based (as opposed to based on answering factual questions that the test taker would need to know independently of the test material). I guess it’s possible, though, or might have been some test I’m not familiar with.

                A few years ago, there was an MCAS essay question that involved “an old trunk.” Lots of kids understandably thought it meant the part of a car (old, presumably) where you might stow groceries etc., rather than a type of box/case/container (a usage that most kids would have little reason to be familiar with). The essay is scored in such a way that you wouldn’t fail it simply for assuming trunk meant part of a car and responding accordingly, but that prompt is every English teacher’s favorite example of a poorly-thought out test question.

          2. Kiki*

            One of those same profs had an awful exam, I knew I had bombed it. My roommate took me out for a beer to help me over it. We walked in and there he was! With a stack of exam papers! He pulled mine out and started to grade it. We had a great laugh over it, and I learned a LOT that I’d missed in the lecture. He wanted to know where his lectures were going wrong and how he could do better. Started out bad, got worse, then it got awesome. One of the top 5 experiences, (and also the 2nd worst) of my 7 years there.

      3. TheLazyB*

        At uni one of my friends caught a guy cooking pasta by putting oil into a frying pan and putting the uncooked pasta in once it was hot. Luckily she smelled the smoke before the smoke alarm went off….

        1. Loose Seal*

          At least he didn’t put the frying pan in the microwave to “heat up” before starting dinner, which a resident from my floor of my college dorm did. Absolutely fried the microwave and our floor had to do without one until Spring when we threw a fund-raiser to replace it.

      4. nicolefromqueens*

        A former roommate told me of one of his former roommates who had a PhD and put leftover pizza in the oven, box and all.

      5. Dez*

        I assume her PhD is not in home economics (I don’t even know if they offer PhDs in that!) or the culinary arts.
        Physics? I know some physicists who are pretty damn clueless in life skills!

      6. Been There, Done That*

        Hey, I can do that too! But seriously, I saw a guy get his phd this weekend and he was uber nice (I was at checkout stand in the hardware store and he was buying a post hole digger).

        I’m so glad i tuned in today. These stories so funny.

    9. ginger ale for all*

      I work in a university library where a large percentage of our librarians have their doctorate in various fields. One day, a doctoral student decided to lecture my boss on how he didn’t know anything and was just a desk jockey and that he needed xyz to be done for him. My boss said that he definitely understood the pressures of being a student from when he had done his doctorate. JMO, if you need to remind people of how smart you are because of a piece of paper, then perhaps you aren’t as smart as you think.

    12. Pam*

      I’m in higher ed too, and am not surprised. Some people with PhD’s learn more and more about less and less and eventually know everything about nothing!

      1. Bibliovore*

        In which I am reminded that this is the place to let off steam and the commentariot would understand.

        Chair of a sister department whose work aligns with my own consistently talks down to me (as I am “just a librarian” and of lower academic rank) and explains the obvious. We rearranged 4 administrators schedules to accommodate his schedule (I so did not want to have a meeting this week as we are prepping for classes and I had back to back meetings that day) He did not show. He did not send a note saying he was unable to make it. He did not communicate in any way. I tried not to express my displeasure at the meeting. I did say his “no show” was not the first one that I had experienced and then moved on.

    13. jack of all trades*

      I worked for an engineering consultant firm where one of the partners had a PHD. The receptions asked me what that meant. I told her it means he knows more about one subject area than everyone else. Otherwise he was no different than the rest of the engineers.

      1. mander*

        That’s exactly how I’d describe myself. I spent a long time studying a tiny little bit of my field. So I know quite a bit about that part but otherwise I’m nothing special.

        PhDs who think it makes them extra smart of deserving of special treatment give the rest of us a bad name. But I do love the rare occasions when I come across someone who is acting like an arrogant twit about having a PhD and I can respond with something like “well, when I did *my* PhD, blah blah blah” and see their astonished reaction when they realize they are not the only person there with extra letters after their name.

        1. Southern Ladybug*

          I do take pleasure in introducing myself or making a correction that I am Dr. Southern Ladybug at times.

          1. Dot Warner*

            My mother once asked me if I tell people to call me Dr. Warner. I replied, “Only if they annoy me.” :)

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Otherwise he was no different than the rest of the engineers.

        My go-to when people are oohing and ahhing over someone like they’re the Second Coming (usually a celebrity) or if someone’s tooting their own horn is, “Everybody poops.”

        1. Hornswoggler*

          Ha ha! Me too! I once had to show a famous male conductor round our college. A couple of my friends were like ‘ohmigaaahd, he’s a GOD, aren’t you neeerrrrvousss??” etc., and I said, “he pisses like any other man”. I do remember that one of my friends was shocked at this that she replied, “Nooooo…. he doesn’t….”

        1. Bigglesworth*

          I love that comic! Anytime I post something about it on social media, my advisors like it and/or respond with funny comments of their own.

    14. Kore*

      I briefly temped in HR where almost all of the incoming employees had PhDs. You wouldn’t believe all the misspellings and obvious things people would miss when doing documentation.

    16. JOTeepe*

      I had a professor in grad school (who, by the way, was NOT like this AT ALL) when, relaying a story of when the painters came to paint her house and gave her the option booklet, she said to them, “I have a PhD.” The painter said, “Yeah, I know, you are really smart” and initially was kind of annoyed. She replied, “No, you don’t understand. I have a PhD, therefore I am incapable of understanding this.” (He laughed then. As did our whole class. Which was made up of primarily terminal Master’s students, NOT PhD bound!)

      2. Bob Barker*

        Ah, the “I’m helpless” button. A lot of PhDs are perfectly capable as doctoral students, are usually capable as tenure-track faculty, and then get tenure. And suddenly need someone to do eeeeeverything for them.

        signed,
        do not even own an iPhone and yet know more about how to work one than my boss.

        1. JOTeepe*

          I should note, I think her comment to him was tongue-in-cheek, at least in that instance. At the time I think it was only her 2nd or 3rd year on faculty, tenure-track but not tenured yet.

        2. Honeybee*

          That’s true. I know several professors who conveniently don’t know how to operate a copier or file documents while their doctoral students and admins seem to be just fine at it.

      3. Tau*

        I totally drag out the old “I have a maths PhD, do not ask me to do basic arithmetic unless you want it to go terribly, terribly wrong” joke when I can. :)

        (For those confused: it’s a running joke in STEM subjects that mathematicians can’t count.)

        1. Cristina in England*

          I am a cluttery person and my husband is very very tidy. I regularly hear “librarian, you say?” When I am hunting for something in my explosion of a bag. The other day he said to me “were you in some sort of rehabilitation program for ex-cons, and they stuck you in a library science program?” That one made me laugh and laugh. We teach what we need to learn, I believe is the saying? Or, as I said to him, “I didn’t invent the Dewey Decimal system, I just know how to use it.”

          1. EmmaLou*

            And how would you use it in your bag anyway? “Hmmm I’m categorizing this concealer under Ancient Religions as I’m just praying it makes me not look undead…”

        2. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

          That’s because we didn’t learn counting theory until some time in undergrad school.

    17. Anonymous Educator*

      I know this isn’t true of everyone who has a PhD but my boss constantly reminds everyone that he has one and how smart and knowledgeable this makes him.

      I think how people relay their doctorate-ness to you says a lot about their character. I’ve known some extremely smart and well-educated and humble people who didn’t advertise their PhDs for years. Only later did I find out how officially educated they were. And then I’ve met others who put that as their first thing and insist you call them Dr. last name, Ph.D.!

      1. Anon for this one*

        I live in a college town and am therefore exposed to many PhDs, some of whom insist on using their titles not only socially, but in everyday things like printing their names on their checks. I was discussing this with a colleague whose husband is that type, and she said it’s important to recognize their hard work, because it takes SO MUCH time and effort to become a PhD. I pointed out that it takes a lot more time and effort to become an astronaut, but I bet none of them insist on printing “Astronaut Mike Kelly” on their checks to make sure everyone who works at the cable company knows they’re a freaking astronaut. :-/

        1. Whats In A Name*

          What if we all did, though?

          Electrical Engineer Nikola Tesla
          University President Joanne Boyle
          Marathoner Grete Waitz

          See, I’m important AND I pay my bills.

          2. Adonday Veeah*

            Middle Manager But Wistfully Dreaming Of Retirement Adonday Veeah
            (Do they let you use that many letters?)

        2. Ghost Town*

          At the university where I work, there’s a whole of degree inflation in administrative positions. I know this partly from experience and being here for 7 yrs, but also b/c there are a ton of people who include their various degrees in their email signatures. They are usually Master-level degrees. (I have an MA and totally peaced out before the PhD phase b/c I realized it wasn’t for me.)

          1. Rob Lowe can't read*

            This happens at my (K-12) school, too. A Master’s degree is basically required to work in my district, so it’s like, yes, you worked hard for your degree, we all did. There are some people who sign their emails “Lucinda Jones, M.Ed, M.A., Ed.S” and it makes me roll my eyes just a little.

        4. DragoCucina (formerly Library Director)*

          One of our deacons at church used to drive parents crazy when he preached. He often talked about being a D student and it took a while for him to find his focus. He now has a PhD. Then he told the story about the company he worked for that had everyone with a PhD wear a ribbon on their name tag. They also wore an additional ribbon for each patent they had. He made the bosses crazy because he refused to wear any ribbons. “But how will people know you’re smart?” “From the quality of my work.” He’s currently in a lawsuit with some big name companies because they stole something he invented. It’s something that many, many people load onto their smart phones. The only reason we know is because my husband was talking to him about how cool this thing was.

      2. Clever Name*

        I keep forgetting my dad is a Ph.D. I was looking at my wedding invite (been married for several years) and noticed that it referred to him as Mr. rather than Dr.

        He said, oh I’m so glad you didn’t put Dr. I would have looked like a complete tool. Only place he ever uses Dr. is on a professional bio.

        1. Anon for this one*

          See, that’s what I think. Socially, it really doesn’t matter than you have a PhD. And yet I know people who use it on EVERYTHING – invitations, holiday cards, etc. People who will meet you at your kids’ soccer game and say “Hi, I’m Dr. John Smith.” I DO NOT CARE. I don’t know if it’s worse because it’s a university town, or what.

          1. mander*

            I will admit to getting a tiny kick out of getting holiday cards addressed to Dr and Mr Ourname. It’s like a very tiny victory for feminism that old fashioned etiquette demands that the “higher” title goes first, regardless of gender. Even though I’m actually Dr Myname. Ah well, it’s only a silly thing to notice anyway.

      3. Anon attorney*

        I struggle with this. I have a PhD in a non legal field and I virtually never refer to it (the exception is if I get the “Miss or Mrs” question, which I loathe, and like being able to reply “Dr”) but it has been suggested that I should add it to business cards, online marketing etc. I don’t really see the relevance but maybe I’m selling myself short in the workplace? Idk.

        1. Honeybee*

          I have mine in my email signature and it feels weird. I am ordering new business cards soon and I wasn’t planning on using it there.

    20. Applesauced*

      This happened to me in college! They changed the curriculum, so freshman and sophomores in my program were all in a big lecture together for art history. The first week of class, one of the freshman in front of me was following along with a PDF of the presentation with his laptop open like a book because he didn’t know how to rotate the pages. I felt very smart showing him how.

    24. the gold digger*

      My husband’s father, who had a PhD, was complaining about his former colleague who had an EdD but insisted on being called “Doctor.” When I asked what an “e d d” was, Sly told me it was a doctorate in education.

      “So he was a doctor,” I said.

      “Yes,” Sly sniffed, “but it’s a lesser degree.”

      1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

        I work around PhDs from a hard science and you should hear the way they talk about “soft science” professors…or gosh forbid…liberal arts!

        1. Cristina in England*

          Someone who was peer reviewing a paper of mine for an award (which would have been the only social sciences paper in a pile of computer science papers) posted on social media that if he was in social sciences he would kill himself. Wtf. I take no pleasure in the fact that he still hasn’t finished his PhD (it got sent back for being generally of terrible quality), because he is working in a dream job in a dream city. No justice has been served!

      2. Aardvark*

        To be fair…you can get a PhD in education, and it is typically considered a more rigorous and academically focused degree than an EdD. (The same distinction can be made between MA/MS Education degrees and MEds.)

        1. Honeybee*

          It’s a hairy distinction to make, because some schools grant an EdD but the process is very similar to getting a PhD at other places – including a rigorous research-based dissertation and an academic focus. I know that traditionally an EdD was an administrative/professional degree, but it’s not always that way anymore. (Same thing with the M.Ed – I’ve seen some M.Ed programs that require theses.)

    26. Kelly*

      I work in an academic library with a boss who is a degree snob. She is very proud of her Ph.D. in Library Science and the primary research area. She’s also not as intelligent as she thinks she is, but it’s not worth my job to correct her when she makes factual errors, especially in the collection area which she is supposed to be an expert.

      She had to have me walk her through how to scan a document and send it via email to another person. My coworker and I don’t share with her updates to some circulation procedures because she’ll just be confused more than she already is. To be fair, the latest update is one that confuses us and we’re supposed to be the knowledgeable ones.

      1. Hibiscus*

        A PhD in Library Science is one of the most worthless degrees out there. Like seriously, why get one? It was hard enough putting up with nonsense to get my MLIS.

        1. Cristina in England*

          Ha! Well, try getting a library science PhD in a specialist research area that pretty much does not exist in your country of residence (at the higher ed level anyway). Although to be fair, my PhD got me a contract job working for someone who has continued to look for and offer me contracts!

          1. DragoCucina (formerly Library Director)*

            Oh, I salute your fortitude. I put mine on hold because, silly me, I was doing research in an area that hadn’t been done before. The literature on the topic amounted to one article. I just couldn’t take the request for literature reviews anymore. ‘But, if we put topic A with topic B we get my area of research. Sorry, no one else has done this yet.’ I tried to eat the whole elephant.

    28. DG's gal*

      I absolutely love this!!! Oh what a shame nobody else saw that happen, but you can put it down in your record books for when your job gets stressful, and you can think of this and smile! :-)

    29. Dankar1208*

      I love it! In my experience, it’s a small set of PhD’s who must make it known that they are “Doctor of ________.” But those PhDs are always, ALWAYS the ones doing things like this. Thanks for the laugh!

        1. Sorrischian*

          I don’t know if that’s entirely true. My mother is a professor with a PhD in her field, and she’s sometimes insisted that students call her Dr. Lastname – because those same students called all her male colleagues Dr. Whatever but were calling her Mrs. Lastname and she just couldn’t let that slide. And this was less than ten years ago, too.

    31. Kittymommy*

      Omg, I love this. As an admin asst to someone like this (who has the exact same degrees as I do, only mine are from more well respected schools), this has made my day!

    32. Not So NewReader*

      Something so satisfying about walking away.
      I think this happens more often than we realized. It pays to be kind/respectful to others. People who can’t end sometimes up in a type of isolation that most of us will never know.

      I knew of a medical doctor who pretty much expected his family to do all the mundane chores for him. One morning he was ready for breakfast and there was no one available to fix his milk and cereal. (Yes, milk and cereal.) I understand the story went on for 40 minutes as he hunted for a bowl, tried to locate the cereal box and then tried to figure out where the milk was in the fridge without opening the door. (Yes, he had lived in the house for decades and no, he did not have dementia.) At least a good 15 minutes was used to figure out how much milk to put on the cereal.

      The people I have seen receive admiration from others are the people who have overcome whatever obstacles they face. Respect/admiration/etc is something we have to earn each day through our interactions with others. It is sad the misconceptions some people, like this PhD here and the medical doc, carry through life with them.

    33. Engineer Girl*

      Engineers viewpoint:
      It was a quick and dirty solution that accomplished the job with little effort. If the document only needed reading once then it was probably easier to turn the screen upside down than to reformat the docs.
      I would have done the same thing…

      1. mander*

        I guess I’m imagining a huge heavy monitor that had to be picked up off the desk, shifting all kinds of clutter and cables, versus a few mouse clicks. I’d spend half an hour googling the answer before I could be bothered to pick up the monitor.

      2. Trillian*

        Not an engineer, but I was thinking exactly the same thing. It’s either do that or figure out where the rotate button is on this particular software since the last UI redesign hid all the useful stuff. I’ve probably only been saved from people laughing at me because I can read upside down with reasonable facility.

      3. Honeybee*

        Many PDF reader apps (including Adobe, the most popular default) have a right-click -> rotate option. I can’t imagine a situation in which it would actually be easier to turn my laptop around (and anyway, my laptop has an auto-rotate because it turns into a tablet, so that wouldn’t work out for me either).

        1. Engineer Girl*

          The point is that he found a quick fix that worked for him. I’m not sure that should be ridiculed.
          He doesn’t sound pleasant to work with, but I wouldn’t ding him for flipping his screen.

        2. Engineer Girl*

          I’d also like to point out that someone that doesn’t create/format PDFs may not know about the right click option. So an admin would know about it and the pres may not.
          Making fun of someone for their lack of knowledge is the same sin as the pres.

    34. Nanani*

      Don’t most people working at a university have a PhD though
      Obviously roles like yours exist, but your boss’ peers surely have them as well so why on earth is he bragging about it so much?!

      Next time you have reason to be at his computer flip the display with ctrl-alt-downkey ;)

    35. Been There, Done That*

      Boy can I relate to your first paragraph. Just keep your eyes on the prize. As for graf 2, sounds like the universe evened the score for you. Best wishes for your studies! And thanks for a hilarious story! :)

  2. Anon Fishy*

    I’ve been job searching and I recently saw a job that very much appealed to me. However, it did not offer any medical insurance. It was full time with paid leave and all that, just no insurance. I’m only in my first full time job, where I was able to jump right from my family’s insurance to my job’s insurance so I have no experience of getting insurance on your own. My parents only said I should try to avoid job that would require me to get solo insurance because it’s so expensive, or at the very least, I’d need to go higher than my current salary requirements to cover the solo insurance.

    I’m researching now but does anyone have any tips they can share about getting insurance outside of a job? My parents made it sound like a really big scary hassle so I’m trying to track down some actual facts and firsthand accounts to guide me.

    1. Adam V*

      At my wife’s first job, she didn’t work 40 hours so she wasn’t eligible for company insurance. We have Blue Cross in our state, so we went online and filled out some paperwork and got a quote that way. It wasn’t that bad (as I recall; this was back in 2006 or so).

      Nowadays, most states seem to be affiliated with the Obamacare website, and if not, you can probably search “[state name] medical insurance” and find some options that way. I think they’ll either show you a brief form to fill out or give you a number to call.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Depending on what state you live in and how much money you’ll be making, buying solo insurance might not be as big a hassle as your parents think – they might be thinking pre-ACA or those early days when the exchanges were all FUBARed. There’s been a lot of doom and gloom news around the ACA and obviously it varies by state, but we were able to get my mom and in-laws signed up for much cheaper than they expected and with relatively little hassle in two different Midwestern states.

      1. jm*

        My husband was on a single Blue Cross policy for a while, and it wasn’t too bad. At the time (pre-Affordable Care Act) pre-existing conditions weren’t covered for the first year. Also, the co-pays and deductibles were high, but the monthly premium was fairly affordable ($200ish).

        You will have to decide whether you want low coverage, with high co-pays and deductibles, at for a low monthly premium; or better coverage, with more affordable co-pays and deductibles, for a higher monthly premium.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Be careful when comparing company provided insurance with insurance you get on your own via ACA. In order to lower costs, ACA policies sometimes significantly limit the doctor networks or otherwise remove features common found in company plans. The NYT had an article on this a couple weeks ago (“Think Your Obamacare Plan Will Be Like Employer Coverage? Think Again”).

          http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/upshot/think-your-obamacare-plan-will-be-like-employer-coverage-think-again.html

          1. Whats In A Name*

            ACA actually cannot say Bronze plan offers XYZ to these people but Bronze is different to these other people. There is no magic check box that tells the insurance company that you chose Bronze as employee sponsored, ACA or on open market. Example: Cigna issues the same type of card to all people covered under Cigna – there isn’t a orange card if you sign up one way and a blue card if you sign up another.

            ACA can advertise options that appear cheaper but come with limited options or limited networks. This is where research comes into play and being sure you are comparing apples to apples.

            1. nonegiven*

              There are no providers closer than 50 miles for me unless I went with the highest cost plans. Gold, I think.

              1. Perse's Mom*

                Provider offices can select which plans they will take, I think. So the providers who will take your Gold plan are not necessarily also accepting the Bronze or Silver plan from the same carrier. It’s not unusual for a Bronze plan to cover ABC benefits while the Silver covers ABYZ and the Gold covers A-F and also T-Z.

                WIAN’s point was more that *how* you sign up for that coverage makes no difference. It’s the specific plan that changes things.

          2. Elle*

            My BIL got coverage through an ACA plan, but quickly realized that almost no providers accepted it. Definitely do your research ahead of time before you select anything!

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Same – when I started my current job, insurance didn’t check in for a couple months, so I had to get my own for that time, and it was MUCH easier than I expected it to be.

      3. JustAnotherLibrarian*

        It’s not a “big scary hassle”, but it can be a pain. I used to have to cover my own insurance. Shop around. Price check and then very carefully think about how much it will cost you per month. Things I would look at closely are the deductible and prescription drug coverage, also the dental coverage and vision, if you need it.

        The ACA marketplaces are okay if you live in a state with a bunch of different insurers AND if you get the subsidy, but if you don’t… it can be pretty expensive. Of course, you lose nothing checking it out yourself.

        I’d also remember that medical stuff can surprise you. I was diagnosed after grad-school with a medical condition. It was such a shock and suddenly I needed some fairly pricey medication, plus twice yearly blood tests. It’s nothing dangerous, but it is something I had to monitor. Moral of the Story: No one ever expects a sudden jump in medical costs. So, be prepared.

        1. Ife*

          It can be hard to realistically estimate medical costs! I used to think, “Oh I go to the doctor once a year and the dentist twice, so that’s like $100/year.” No, when I actually started tracking it, it was way more than that. And then there was the year where I needed to see the doctor every few months, followed by the year where I needed Expensive Test… so really it would not hurt to estimate based on your current spending and then maybe double it to take into account those unexpected expenses.

          Also, I do not know if this is an option on the Exchange plans, but my insurance comes with a health savings account that made the Expensive Test not a big deal at all because I had money set aside specifically for that kind of thing. Definitely an option worth researching because you get a tax benefit too.

    3. MelPo*

      When I moved to my current job, I had a 3 month gap between leaving my old job and coverage starting for my new job. I went to my state exchange and bought a policy that was plenty of coverage for my family. It was more than I pay for my company insurance but not as expensive as I was expecting and WAY less than COBRA.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My last company didn’t offer health insurance. I bought insurance through the Marketplace, and I’m lucky to live in an area with great medical care. Did I find it difficult? Personally, no– but I grew up in a family of doctors, have taken courses in insurance law (albeit 20 years ago), and am well-versed in insurance jargon. I knew I wanted a Silver plan with a reasonable deductible and reasonable co-pays, plus a wide network of doctors, and I found one. My former co-worker, however, had a hell of a time and I had to walk her through it.

      Overall, I’m happy with my health insurance, but I pay nearly $400/month for it. A lot of people would say this is a mistake and I should have gone for a Bronze plan, since I’m relatively healthy and all, but I’m nearly 40, have a family history of some cancers, and I have broken too many bones to face a high deductible.

      Here’s the big thing, though: find out WHY this company doesn’t offer insurance. In my company’s case, it was a big sticking point for a lot of people, because we were told the situation would change and it never did. The company never offered insurance because its first hires were all under 26 and on their parents’ insurance. It made them pretty unattractive to a lot of people. Also, keep this in mind when talking salary. My net effective salary was much lower than it should have been; I took what looked like a very small paycut when I took the job (different geographic location), but paying for insurance out-of-pocket meant it was, effectively, a nearly 10% cut.

      1. Dez*

        A LOT of things can go to hell when you hit 40.
        I was diagnosed a diabetic two months after I turned 40. Part of the protocol with newly diagnosed chronic illnesses is if the patient has a history of depression, the doctor offers to prescribe an antidepressant if they’re not currently on one. I also had some neuropathy and/or nerve damage (Lyrica is obscenely expensive).
        I also broke the crap out of my left ankle six months or so before I turned 40. Two weeks in hospital, plates, screws, no weight bearing and I had to move to my mom’s condo four hours away because we live in a townhouse with 38 steps between the front door and the bedroom and full bath. Nightmare. Took me five month to get back to work full time.
        Thank the heavens I am Canadian and my husband is a senior civil servant with a limousine benefits package (so much so that I used my benefits allowance as a health spending account which too care of my 20% copays on prescriptions and extra physiotherapy). Our system has flaws and there are wait lists for non-urgent stuff but nobody ever went bankrupt or lost their house because of cancer or broken bones. I am grateful.
        I follow US health care issues because I feel like health care is a basic human right. I wish it weren’t so complicated and expensive for you guys. I am so glad the got rid of being able to deny coverage from pre existing conditions.

    5. pandq*

      When I had to get my own insurance, I made sure my doctor took the plan I wanted to choose. So if you have a doctor that you want to keep, make sure she is in your network of the plan you choose. I agree with other comments that it’s less of a hassle then it used to be.

      1. EmmaLou*

        Yes, we stupidly thought since my doctor was in the same group as the insurance we chose, she’d be covered. She wasn’t. There was one doctor in my area that was covered. One. We instead paid out of pocket to continue with my very good doctor until he got a job with coverage and now we are well-covered again.

    6. overeducated*

      My spouse and I are both in soft money positions that don’t offer health insurance, only financial assistance to buy our own. In our last state we bought it through the state exchange and in our current one we had to buy through the federal exchange. For both, you have to enter some personal info on the health insurance marketplace website and then you can estimate what your cost and plan options would be. I recommend checking out whichever one is applicable in your state to see how much it would cost.

      It was annoying in terms of paperwork but we got it done within 2 weeks both times. The plans are unfortunately quite expensive (for a family of 3 we are very close to hitting four figures in premiums), but some employer plans are too, so run your numbers. Depending on how much the job pays and where you live it might or might not be a dealbreaker.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think buying insurance on your own is that scary, but it’s just another cost, so take that into consideration when you’re looking at the salary. It’s not just a salary—it’s a salary minus whatever you’ll have to pay for your own insurance.

    8. Sibley*

      ACA will actually help you here, but it is a pain. Google your state + health insurance marketplace. You can shop for insurance, and depending on your income, may be eligible for a subsidy. However, my experience is that it’s confusing and frustrating, so be prepared for that.

      Alternatively, you can go directly to the insurance company and buy an individual policy, but you wouldn’t get any ACA subsidies for that.

      1. zora.dee*

        I had to get a plan through my state exchange when I was unemployed. Granted, I’m in CA which is one of the best ones, but honestly, it was so much easier when I just called on the phone rather than figuring out everything online. And ACA has a 24 hour help line, I honestly would start with that, the people on the phone knew way more than me and it was much smoother that way.

        I would add all the cautions above about finding how much this is going to cost, and subtracting that from the salary they offer, and don’t forget to factor in the deductible and not just the premiums. You never know when something could happen, I found out the hard way. I thought I was super healthy and wouldn’t have to worry about it, until I ended up in the hospital.

        Honestly, as someone who has had surprise health issues creep up on me, I don’t think i would take a job that didn’t offer health insurance, that does not seem like a great company to work for.

        1. Natalie*

          Don’t forget taxes! Premiums for employer provided care are nearly always pre-tax. And while you can deduct health care expenses, they have to total 10% of your AGI and it needs to be worth it to itemize deductions in the first place.

    9. Viktoria*

      I don’t have health insurance through my job and I buy it on the ACA Marketplace (Illinois). It varies a lot by state but I pay $285/month for the highest tier of care and it’s a good plan ($0 deductible). I have an expensive chronic illness so I go for the best plan I can find- there are plenty of cheaper options if you don’t need as much coverage.

      The main downside is that so many companies are backing out of the Marketplace. Last year I had a BCBS plan that was cancelled, this year my plan is with UHC and they’re pulling out entirely in 2017, so I have no idea what options will be available next year. It’s a hassle to change insurance every year too but just takes a few irritating phone calls at the beginning of the year.

    10. Chickenmay*

      Open enrollment on healthcare.gov begins November 1 there are special enrollment periods for qualifying life events that allow you to enroll outside of open enrollment as well. Depending on your income you can qualify for subsidies and cost sharing. There are people who are called navigators that can help you with the process. I am a new navigator and work in a grant funded position for a non profit. We aren’t selling anything and don’t make a commission or get any benefit from the plan you pick or if you decide not to pick one at all. You can google healthcare.gov navigators in your state and find one who can help answer any questions you may have.

    11. Effective Immediately*

      It’s going to vary wildly depending on what State you reside in and how much money you’ll be making, honestly. If you live in a Medicaid Expansion State, for instance, and you’re doing entry level work it’s only a matter of filling in a few blanks and *maybe* providing proof of income.

      Your state should have designated Exchange enrollers; they can often meet you wherever works best for you and tell you what your options are/would be.

    12. Anxa*

      If you’re young, it shouldn’t be so bad.

      I had absolutely no interest in employer based healthcare. In fact, I find it incredibly frustrating that my hours are capped at 25 to make sure I don’t get too close to 30 in part so they don’t have to offer insurance, which would cost more than even an unsubsidized plan would (and if I had enough hours, I wouldn’t have to worry about making too little money to qualify for subsidies).

      Health insurance premiums have shot up a lot since the ACA (at least for my demo), but it’s still not as high as some of the employer based options.

      And even if your looking for a company to pay full premiums, the amount it saves may not be that huge.

      The healthcare.gov horror stories are no joke, and I’ve personally dealt with a lot of the incompetence, but many people have no issues signing up.

    13. Anxa*

      Oh, and if your situation is at all unusual, make sure you do some independent research and avoid relying solely on a navigator. Some of them may be good, but I was routed to 2 navigators and they were beyond unhelpful. Things may have changed since the first few years, but I found that they were primarily trained to just relay information for the most common situations, when what many people could really use is a tax attorney or accountant.

    14. Bethlam*

      How old are you? You say you are in your first full-time job so I’m assuming still fairly young. If you are under 26, your parents can add you back on to their insurance during their open enrollment period, and you may only have to pay for a few months to bridge the gap. You can be on their insurance even if you don’t live with them. Depending on your age, you’ll have some time to look at insurance options that you’ll need when you turn 26.

      1. Anxa*

        Keep in mind that it may be less expensive to purchase your own than be added onto your parents, especially if they don’t have employer coverage.

    15. Candi*

      Late, but if you’re still following this: ask your current doctor/office, or the one you used to go to, about insurance companies. You don’t have to take their recommendations, but listen to who they don’t like.

      This comes an uncle who was a GP for his career and his ICU nurse wife, who also helped him at his clinic when he was between staff for reasons. Some companies are just pain in the patuckus to deal with, and the offices know who the current ones are.

  3. Beefy*

    What’s the best route to go if I’m interested in accounting/bookkeeping? I already have a bachelor’s in an unrelated field, and I’m contemplating returning to school for either an undergrad degree, or getting my MBA. I’d be looking for a decent online program, definitely not one of those for-profit colleges. I don’t know anyone who has done anything like this, and I’m kind of at a loss for how to proceed. Any and all related advice is welcome!

    1. Barbara in Swampeast*

      You would need an accounting degree, then. The MBA would not get you much accounting education, and it might even require you to take a couple undergrad accounting courses before you could get into the program.

    2. Emac*

      If you’re in the US, have you looked at accounting classes at local community colleges? The ones around here all have an accounting associate degree and some have shorter certificate options. I’m not in the accounting/bookkeeping field, but I know I’ve seen jobs that have accounting/bookkeeping as one part of the job, but not the whole thing. If you have a degree and then learn some of the basics of accounting, maybe you could apply for those types of jobs and then build your experience from there?

    3. Pam*

      Look for a Master’s of Science in Accountancy program. You may also be able to take Accounting courses as a non-student through a university.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        This is what my husband did. His bachelor’s isn’t in accounting, but he got into the MS in Accounting program at our local branch of the state university with no problems. Originally, he thought he might end up taking one or two courses as a non-degree student to strengthen his application, but when he spoke with an advisor in the business school she advised him to just apply.

    4. bemo12*

      I am in this field and have an unrelated degree. The other commenters are suggesting college, which is, fine, but it is not the only option. You could try and get a job at a smaller firm where the office manager also takes charge of the bookkeeping. Look for Youtube videos or online courses on Quickbooks and you should be able to pick up the basics pretty quickly.

      From there, just work closely with your CFO and try and learn more and more on the job and you will pick it up in no time.

        1. Natalie*

          Same. I’m taking classes now but I was the bookkeeper in a field office for 2-3 years with no formal education.

      2. Kimberlee, Esq*

        Yep! Another person who jumped into bookkeeping by being an office manager at smaller org that rolled a lot of positions into the front desk (HR, compliance, bookkeeping, etc). If you want to be a full CPA, you’ll need to go to school, but if you want to be a bookkeeper I would not bother with any additional education at all.

      3. Rob Lowe can't read*

        This is what my husband did. He started off as a bookkeeper for a very small company, did that for almost two years, and then got a job in the accounting department of a larger company. Quickbooks was pretty much all he needed for the bookkeeping job, and he learned it through online tutorials and trial and error!

    5. AMT 2*

      It totally depends on what exactly you want to do. I did accounting classes at a community college, but didn’t complete my associates degree. It was enough to get me my first job in a CPA firm and there I was exposed to tax returns, bookkeeping, payroll, payables, etc – 3 years there and based on experience alone I’ve never had a problem getting the jobs I want without a degree. I am working on my bachelors now actually, but I’ve been doing accounting work for 13 years already. I’m getting an MS in accounting online via American Public University – it is for profit but doesn’t seem to have the stigma attached to a lot of others. It is also significantly cheaper than even the community college where I live so that is fantastic, and lends credence to it not being a scam school. If you are looking for other options I think that Penn State’s world campus/online school has an accounting program (I didn’t know about it until after I started my current program, at the time I couldn’t find any accounting programs that were fully online at any non-profit schools which is why I went with APU).
      Anyway, depending on what you want to do you don’t necessarily need a degree, a few classes at a community college or an associates may be sufficient. The other end of the spectrum is if what you want requires a CPA license in which case a degree is not only necessary but only the first step.

      1. Basia, also a Fed*

        Yes, Penn State has a master’s degree in accounting that is 100% online, and it is specifically geared toward taking the CPA exam. I agree with Master Bean Counter below – if you’re going to take a bunch of classes, you might as well get a master’s degree.

    6. Beefy*

      Thanks to all who have commented so far!

      Some more background:
      I currently have an office job that I enjoy, doing restaurant ordering analysis. I had never really used Excel prior to this, and I absolutely love it and am great at it. In my former life, I was an institutional foodservice manager, and (thanks to Alison’s excellent advice!) I was able to use my experience there to change career paths. After seeing some of Excel’s financial analysis templates, I realized that my love of organizing information would be a huge asset in an accounting/bookkeeping role, and it’s something I would almost certainly enjoy.

      In my current job, a business degree of some sort would be essential to any upward movement. I’m also in an area with a lot of small businesses who wouldn’t need a full time bookkeeper, so my thought was that I could possibly advance my current career while also having a side business as a contractor, doing bookkeeping from my own home on my own time.

      1. Natalie*

        Does your current firm have an in-house accounting department? Could you do any cross training or shadowing with them?

        And FWIW, a lot of accounting jobs, including the ones you’ll be starting in, have little to no analysis. If its the analytics you love, that’s a whole different field.

        1. Beefy*

          I work for a large corporation, but our satellite office consists strictly of people who do my type of work, and another non-financial department. Anything to do with the actual financials is housed hundreds of miles away. I hear what you’re saying about the analysis, which I do enjoy because I’m familiar with the practical application of it so I’m good at it, but I’m at my happiest when I’m pulling and organizing the data.

    7. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      My husband and I went a totally different route to get out of sales.. we have BAs but not in accounting, so we went back to school to build up accounting credits (local community college and other online community colleges) and sat for the CPA exam. After passing it, he took a job as a staff accountant at a CPA firm that just works in the industry we both have built our whole careers in, and in a week I’ll start a new job in the finance department of a new company, same industry we’ve always been in. Even though we are not licensed CPAs, it got our foot in the door.

    8. Master Bean Counter*

      There are programs out there that offer a bookkeeping certificate, which is a great way to dip your toes in and see if you like the area. If you are sure you like the area and want to get to a certification like a CMA or CPA, then you’ll want to looks for a master’s program. Most of the programs will require you to take some undergrad accounting courses to get up to speed on the subject. WGU now offers a Master’s of Accounting and their program is flexible.

      1. CPALady*

        No need for a Master’s degree to become a CPA. That’s one of the reasons it appealed to me so much. There is an education requirement to sit for the CPA exam. It was 150 hours with a certain number in accounting when I sat.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          No need, but if you’re going to put in the hours, why not get a degree? Especially since most of the newer Master’s of Accounting programs are actually geared towards meeting the educational requirements for the exam.
          I hear you, but it was only like two extra classes for that master’s degree.

    9. Newish Reader*

      If you’re sure you want to be in the accounting industry, my experience has been that a degree with an accounting major is important. I have a bachelor’s in management and an MBA, but when I went looking for an actual accountant position, I was thrown out of the pool for lack of the right major. I was able to obtain a second bachelor’s degree, this one with an accounting/finance major, without having to start from scratch. Most of my general education courses transferred to the new degree program and then I only had to take the required accounting courses.

    10. Natalie*

      On the job experience is a great option, and it might not be as hard as you think. Every firm of every size has some kind of bookkeeping operation and plenty of them are willing to hire entry level people with no accounting education, especially as the job market tightens. In small firms, that might mean being the admin/office manager/assistant and spending part of your time doing bookkeeping. In a larger firm, it could be a quite entry level job in the accounting department, but you’ll get some exposure to other aspects of the field.

      School really can ease the way, so as its an option for you I’d recommend it. But don’t do a masters, in accounting or anything else. You end up in the standard trap of too much education for an entry level job, not enough experience for anything else.

      If your bachelors degree is pretty recent (>10 years) you might be able to get a second bachelors degree in 2 years worth of credits. Unfortunately if you have to work full time, that will take 4+ years. There are also AAs and certificate programs in accounting or bookkeeping that could get your foot in the door. And, in my experience at least, it’s easier to get hired once you’re about halfway through that educational piece than it is without it, so you may be able to get an accounting job before you finish your program.

    11. Tax Accountant*

      I was a history major. I thought I was going to be a history teacher. I ended up hating teaching so much I quit as soon as my first year was through. I had always enjoyed financial type stuff as a side hobby so I decided to take an accounting class to see if I’d like it. I’m a CPA now. I do not have an additional degree. If you are interested in becoming a CPA (which I would highly recommend, as it will open a lot of doors for you) this is what I did:

      – Looked up my state’s educational requirements. At the time, it was 24 semester hours in business topics (including math, econ, finance, computer science, business admin, marketing, business law, etc) and 24 semester hours in accounting classes. You may have already taken classes in the business topics that would count towards your requirement.
      – I took as many classes as I could online at community college (2 econs and 2 accounting)
      – I took most of the rest of my classes online through a local state university and the last couple in person, because I couldn’t find any more online classes in the subjects I needed.
      – I worked full time while taking 4 classes per semester. It was horrible, but I got through it relatively quickly.
      – I did all of this as a “non-degree-seeking student”
      – I started studying for the CPA exam using the Becker test prep system, which was expensive but worth it.
      – While I was in school I got a job temping as a bookkeeper through accountemps to get some actual real world experience.
      – The classes plus CPA test prep cost around $10k. My salary before I started working in public accounting was around $25k per year. My starting salary in public accounting was $50k per year. I’m in my 4th year of my career now, making around $65k.

      The main different between an accountant and a bookkeeper is level of education. You can get a job as a bookkeeper with just an associates degree. Unfortunately, the pay reflects that. If you want to get a job as an accountant, you can either work in “industry” (like in the accounting department of a corporation) or in public accounting. Public accounting is tax prep and audit work. I spent 3 years in public, and now I work for a law firm that has a tax prep section as part of their estates and trusts department. Its great and I really enjoy what I do.

      I have never felt the need to get an MBA or a MAcc since I am a CPA. It might be different if I worked in a corporation and wanted to be a CFO or something someday, which I decidedly do not want.

      1. Tax Accountant*

        Oh, and the fact that I am a history major never stopped me from getting interviews, because as soon as I started passing sections of the CPA exam, employers were very eager to bring me in. I had multiple offers going into public accounting.

    12. Wife and Tutor*

      I am a CPA and by husband (who has a Masters in Biology) has decided he wants to re-enter the work force with an accounting degree when our children start school in a few years. He is currently a stay at home dad. He found an online program through the University of Alabama at Birmingham that they label the “bridge program”. The program prepares you to enroll in their Masters of Accountancy program (also online). The bridge program consists of all the undergrad classes required to major in Accounting (8 or 9 classes). At the end of the bridge program, you do not have a bachelor’s, but you are eligible to enroll for their MAcc. My husband determined it would be faster to get his Masters than get a BS majoring in Accounting. After completing the program, he would be qualified to sit for the CPA exam if he chose to do so.

      The only issue is the pace of the program. He takes two classes per semester (7 weeks for one class, 1 week break, 7 weeks for the second class). That is due to how the material builds on itself. It will take him 3.5 to 4 years to compete the bridge and MAcc. He has just started the program this Monday, so we will have to see how it goes.

    13. AliceBD*

      I don’t think anyone has mentioned what my dad did. He was offered an accounting job when I was in preschool, and he wanted to take it because at the time he was in sales and traveling a lot, and wanted to stay home more with two small children. He quickly realized that he didn’t know enough from the accounting courses he had taken in undergrad for his econ major. He got his Masters in accounting (this was 20 years ago, so no online options) while doing bookkeeping part-time. (I think. I was little.) He did NOT prep at all or try for the CPA exam, as he knew he didn’t want to do that type of work. For the past 20 years he’s worked in the accounting departments of businesses. He’s been at his current company for over a decade and is still the accountant, but has also been promoted to a VP. (It’s a fairly small, family-owned company doing a specific type of professional services.)

  4. Christy*

    Applying for a part time retail job when you work in an office

    I’m interested in possibly applying for a part-time position in a clothing store this holiday season. I’m mostly interested in the employee discount, but I also have a fair amount of time to myself and would enjoy having pocket money to spend guilt-free. I haven’t worked retail in ten years though–since I was a teenager. How do I structure my resume? I’m planning on emphasizing the customer-service parts of my job. I work as a SharePoint developer, so I have to be responsive to customers’ needs, and I have to be very responsive to their questions. What else should I do? Should I include the decade-old retail experience on the resume? I was often the only person in the store in one of the jobs, and the store I’d be applying to is often the same way. I’m totally out of my depth on this application. I’m passionate about the clothes though.

    1. DevAssist*

      Oh my gosh! I commented below and am considering doing the same thing. I hope people will provide some good advice. I know working two jobs will become exhausting really fast, but I don’t get paid enough right now. haha

    2. Temperance*

      Not sure what store you’re looking at … but my MIL does holiday retail and you just need to fill out an application. No resume required!

      1. Christy*

        That would be pretty sweet! The place I’m applying has an online application system, with a required resume and “optional” cover letter. (I’m definitely writing a cover letter. I love this brand.) But maybe this doesn’t apply to holiday retail.

        1. Dawn*

          Fill it out, and write in the cover letter how much you love the brand and exactly why you want to work there. It seems like especially during the holidays it’d be hard to find people who were in it because they loved it, and not just because they’re trying to be a warm body earning a paycheck.

        2. SophieChotek*

          I think especially for the seasonal retail jobs, there might be fwer issues. But generally, I would emphasize the customer service experience, ability to handle cash/balance a drawer accurately, calmness under pressure (i.e. frazzled holiday shoppers).

        3. Becky*

          Higher-end retail positions, especially those that involve national brands but market themselves as boutiques, definitely care about cover letters and resumes because they are looking for people that are excited about the products and willing to evangelize to customers.

          Have you worked two jobs before? I ask because combining a second job with a very different function from your primary job can be more tiring than you initially estimate. Add in general holiday mayhem and you might need PTO from life for a week come January.

          1. Christy*

            I haven’t! I’m nervous about it but I figure it’s only a few months. I’m lucky that my FT job allows me plenty of PTO, so that’s definitely an option for me.

            And I would totally evangelize. It’s an international brand but there’s only about 10 stores in the US, and they’re definitely high-end/boutique, but not in a logo/brand way.

            Thank you for your tips!

            1. Candy*

              I had two jobs where I worked every day (except stat holidays, so I had about one day off a month) for a whole year while saving money to travel. My full time job was a regular 35 hour Mon-Fri job and then I had the part time one on the weekends. It was definitely tiring but the one thing that helped not burn out was having shorter shifts on the weekend. So I’d do just four hours, 10-2pm say, and it would go by really quickly and I’d be home early enough that I felt I still had a day off.

    4. Emac*

      I’d also suggest keeping an eye out for if they have an open house hiring event. A lot of retail stores seem to have those for temp seasonal jobs.

    5. May*

      I just did this in the past few months. At my store, it was an online application with a resume attached. I had applied in the past and kept my resume similar to how it was for my career, which was a mistake–no calls. This time, I updated it and made it clear that I was looking for a retail/customer service job. I don’t think you have to include the older experience if you don’t want to; I know my store doesn’t care if you’ve had experience before, just that you can do the customer part of the job and they’ll teach you about the retail-specific.

      Good luck!! It’s tiring having two jobs, but the guilt-free spending money is nice and the discount is even nicer :) Plus, the other staff (at my store at least) definitely understand that it’s hard to have two jobs, and have taken that into account when scheduling for me.

    6. Betty*

      I recently got a part-time job in retail. No resume required but you can upload one in most system, in my experience. I didn’t tailor it at all to retail and still was able to land a job pretty quickly. There are plenty of fill in boxes to explain your experience and/or why you’re looking for a job in retail. Good luck!

    7. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      I tried to do this as well a few years ago, for a higher-end brand that recently opened locally.

      The manager I spoke to made it clear that they were going for a certain look (every single employee I saw was tall, thin, early twenties) and that my experience and reliability was a secondary consideration (I’m a dumpy middle-aged woman). I hope you have better luck.

      1. Christy*

        Thanks. That would be a disappointment even beyond not getting the job–I’d be disappointed in the store/brand itself if that were the case.

    8. Kittens*

      I know this isn’t what you’re asking about necessarily, but triple check what your discount will actually be before you sign up for working anywhere. Holiday retail can actually be really fun to work (good vibes, funny stories, etc.), but for some major retail companies the employee discount is pretty small (lowest I’ve seen is like 5%?). It may be searchable?

      1. Renault*

        Yes, please make sure that the discount is worth the possible holiday retail aggravation.
        I work retail currently and our 10% discount does not cover much of what we sell in the store. Even our holiday coupons as a “thanks for working here” exclude the most useful/desirable products.

    9. Tookie Clothespin*

      If you are a regular at the store, it might be worth it to stop in and let them know you are applying. I work in retail and we love hiring good customers who are passionate about the brand (It is how I was hired). Sometimes when a regular customer mentions applying, we will have them fill out a little card of information so the manager can make that connection between the face and the application. It isn’t a guarantee obviously but may be worth a shot. I know it goes against most conventional career advice and I totally agree for all other fields but retail is a little different.

    10. Central Perk Regular*

      My husband is a retail store manager and is in charge of hiring. His store is a high-end mens store and they require a resume to apply. He hires a lot of part-timers, especially around busy times of the year, and many of them have a full-time job already, or at least another part-time job. The biggest thing to him is a.) fit (i.e. would you be able to appeal to his clientele and relate to them?) and b.) availability. If you have good availability, that will help a lot. If you do interview, I would focus on transferrable skills and relationship-building, especially if it’s a high-end or luxury store. Good luck!

    11. Simms*

      You may want to ask if you get the discount in a period where you would be able to use it as well. I’ve worked several places now where employees didn’t get a discount until they had been there 3-9 months (depending on the business). Also if you are just a temp/seasonal employee for just the holidays they may not even offer it.

    12. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I used to hire lots of part-time employees for the holidays, lots of them were doing it as a second job.

      You don’t have to go into detail in your resume (if one is even needed, most places will just have an application) but definitely emphasize any customer service skills you use in your current job as well as any money handling. It would probably be good to note your retail experience just so that they know you’re not completely new to it.

      The main things I looked for when talking to people in person was reliability, flexibility and professionalism.

    13. TL -*

      I work weekends doing kids’ birthday party shows (very fun!) and I do sports photography where I sign up for shifts when I want them. It’s actually quite nice – I like the extra money and both of those things are fun for me to do so they don’t stress me out very much. It can get exhausting – just start off small and ramp up or down as you’re able. I think the key is doing something that is flexible and fun.

    14. BobcatBrah*

      I work a 60 hour a week day job (that is thankfully only 5 days a week), and drive Uber part time. I have no life, but I moved 1400 miles for the FT job, it’s only going to last 18 months before they transfer me back to Texas, and I wouldn’t be doing anything on my off days besides reading our video games anyway. So far I’ve paid off my motorcycle and credit cards with Uber, now I’m throwing that extra into paying off my car, and then hopefully will have some time left here to knock out some student loans. It’s pretty great, because the tax break for mileage is fairly significant (even with putting all these extra miles on my car).

  5. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    I got the job!!! It’s a one-year mat leave contract cover, but the pay is great and it’s a great foot in the door to the organization. I can start next week, since I got notified today that my criminal check is ready to pick up on Tuesday. I went in for a day of training this week and I’m crazy psyched to start for real next week.

    I attribute all of this to Alison’s coaching on how to write a cover letter, spruce up a resume, and interview well. (Including the magic question!) I can’t wait to start and I’m really looking forward to starting a new job for real!

  6. Audiophile*

    I was recently rejected for a job I’d interviewed for earlier last month. In their rejection email, they said if anything changes they’d like to continue the conversation.

    I don’t have any other irons in the fire, although I did have a quick phone interview yesterday.

    Who else is excited for this long weekend?? I know I am.

    2. SophieChotek*

      P.S. I also got rejected for a job that applied for; I made a first round screening interview, but HR called me on Tuesday and said that they would pursue other candidates. (At least HR was nice enough to call and not leave me hanging.) I’m disappointed because I would like to break into admin/staff in higher education for a more long-term career, but also relieved because the pay is less than I would like and if I had been offered the job, that would have been a big issue for me.

      Keep looking Audiophile– hope we both get new jobs soon!

      1. Audiophile*

        Higher Ed jobs are a long and difficult interview process. I’ve applied to many and interviewed with a handful, every time it was long.

        One time it was four months between application and interview and then a few weeks to them rejecting me. I applied for two different jobs at the same college, they interviewed me two weeks apart. One sent a rejection, one just updated my application status in the ATS system.

        Fingers crossed for you SophieChotek.

        1. Amadeo*

          Re: HiEd jobs – I think that depends on which position you’re applying for and which university. I’ve held two civil service/staff positions as two different (albeit small) universities and was hired at each one after only one interview, and the position I held before my current one didn’t even seem to count as an interview – the chair mostly just talked about the math department and a couple days later sent me an email offering the position.

          Now, I wasn’t totally privy to the faculty hiring process there, but I was aware that it was far more involved. There were committees and votes and multiple interviews, so I expect it really just depends.

        2. Bob Barker*

          Yeah, it varies a lot, both by university and within a university. But 4 months between application and job offer is not at all unheard-of for a staff position. I’ve waited almost that long.

          Heck, I’m in the middle of applying to jobs, and one I applied to on July 10 just contacted me on August 20 for a screening interview. Sometimes it’s just difficult to get enough of the cats into one room at the same time. (And you should SEE some of the job descriptions. Let’s just say that many of them are written by committee. Several committees who don’t talk to each other.)

        3. Anxa*

          I work part-time in Higher Ed and applied for a full-time job at my current employer.

          My rejection email thanked me for interviewing. I did not get an interview.

          1. Audiophile*

            That’s just bad auto-emailing.
            I had a rejection email addressed to “Dear [Applicant Name Here,]”. I quite enjoyed that one .

            Sorry you didn’t get the job.

            1. Anxa*

              Yeah. I wasn’t expecting to be considered as I already work there, but I have to admit it stung a bit. I am sure it was the type of error that could happen to everyone and that I’m way overthinking it, but part of me was a bit hurt because I wonder if an email like that to an internal candidate from a more highly regarded position (one where the employees are regular employees) would be something they’d be more careful to avoid.

    4. Golden Lioness*

      Keep in touch! Continue the relationship. The same happened to me a couple of years ago, and when the job re-opened they immediately wanted to bring me back. It’s now on hold, but I know if it re-opens I have a great chance of getting it if I still want it.

      Who knows? you may be able to help other people who are looking as well.

      Good luck!

      1. Audiophile*

        It’s funny, I’ve often revamped resumes for friends and many managed to secure jobs after I revised their resumes. I haven’t figured out how to monetize their good fortune yet.

        1. Audiophile*

          I’d love to get the opportunity to interview with Google. I just applied for a job there a few weeks ago, but I doubt I’ll get interviewed.

          It’s great that the recruiter still keeps in touch.

    5. Bigglesworth*

      Sorry to hear that, Audiophile! I’m in the same boat, except I’m already in higher ed but can’t/won’t be promoted due to budget cuts and a hiring freeze. I’m trying to find a job at a different school, but the process is taking forever. Good luck!

  7. Bomb Shellter*

    Any suggestions for having a friend call to see what a former employer would say in a reference check?

    Some background: I was laid off recently under suspicious circumstances and I’m in the process of pursuing an EEOC complaint. I have not been in contact with anyone (except HR) at my company since my layoff, so I have no idea what my coworkers were told about my departure. (After the complaint is investigated, I’m intending to negotiate a positive reference from them, but I have a feeling that will take a while, and I’m obviously actively applying to jobs now.)

    I’m curious about what HR and my old manager would say in a reference check. It’s highly likely they will just give dates of employment and “layoff” as the reason for my leaving the company, but recently Alison said that savvy reference checkers can get around vague answers.

    I have a few “professional-sounding” people I could ask to do a mock reference check, but I’m also concerned that their area codes could raise some suspicions (the people that could call for me would be family or friends from other areas in the country where I wouldn’t be pursuing a job or are obviously from the state where I grew up but no longer live).

    What questions should I ask my friend to ask HR and my former manager that might help me determine if they are giving out negative information about me? Has anyone else done this type of thing before?

    1. Adam V*

      Area codes – I don’t see why it would be a big deal; you could be considering moving to be closer to family if you’ve been laid off. Plus, lots of people keep their old phone numbers when moving to new areas.

      Questions to ask – I think start with the basics (dates worked, final salary, reason for leaving, eligible for rehire) and then probe into why you were chosen to be laid off instead of other coworkers, as well as maybe “best and worst qualities” ? I don’t know what else though. (I’ve never done it before.)

    2. Joseph*

      First off, I wouldn’t worry too much about the area codes, since so many people keep their old cell phone numbers. My office phone list currently has 11 different area codes present among a 20 person office. Unless your friends/family are literally all the same area code (why does 317 keep showing up?), nobody is going to think twice about it.
      Secondly, I’d probably have them ask a bunch of general questions first “How was B at work? How was his professionalism?”, then a few questions about industry-specific skills. And make sure your reference checkers know how to drill down on vague answers. Notably, since you mentioned “layoffs”, many saavy reference checkers will ask something like “If your budget improved so you were looking to hire again, would you rehire B?” They may say “No” and there’s nothing you can do about it, but it’s good for you to know either way.
      Third, it’s probably good to treat this as though you were actually trying to hire someone and research good questions you’d ask if you were performing a reference check of Unknown Candidate. I’m pretty sure there are a few topics in the archives about how to do a reference check which might help.

      1. Bomb Shellter*

        Thank you, these are excellent suggestions, especially about the re-hire. If my friend hits a wall (something like “we can only verify dates of employment”), is there a way to drill further than that? Like asking why they are only confirming employment, which can imply a negative history at the company?

        1. NaoNao*

          I don’t think you can get around “we can only verify”. You *might* be able to ask “is this person eligible for re-hire?” or “Is there anything you can tell me about this candidate?” and you might get an answer, but….Most everywhere I’ve worked is under the impression (wrongly) that it’s “illegal” to give a negative reference and since it’s hard to tell if a “only verify” is a code for a negative or if it’s just really company policy, it’s rolling the dice to use places that “only verify” as a reference.
          You might want to consider going a different route: having a co worker or slightly senior person you worked with be your reference for detailed stuff and putting something like “to verify employment title and dates, please call 1-800-GNRLNMBR” (the general front desk line). With companies that I’ve worked for that can be a bit of a crap-shoot with what they’re going to say (hi, legal collections office!) I usually go that way.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If they say they can only verify dates, she should ask, “Is that your policy for all employees across the board or only some of them?” (“Only some of them” indicates there’s some issue with the person that they’re trying to avoid talking about.) But also, make sure she calls the manager and not HR; managers are generally much more willing to talk.

          2. Whats In A Name*

            Could they also be saying that because they won’t comment if they are in an active lawsuit with that employee? OP said they are pursuing a EEOC complaint. Thoughts?

    3. neverjaunty*

      Keep in mind that if you end up pursuing an EEOC complaint or a lawsuit, your friend may end up being a witness.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Ack, I just read the original question in full; had just seen the friend-checking-reference stuff when I responded but not the EEOC complaint. Yeah, in light of that, don’t do this. This is actually a (the only) reason to use a reference-checking company if you do it at all because you can get one that keeps their findings in a format that will work well if needed in court; your friend isn’t going to be nearly as credible. You’d want to talk to a lawyer before doing this, given the context here.

      3. Bomb Shellter*

        Oh, good point! The complaint hasn’t been filed yet but I will consult my attorney first before doing anything.

    4. Biff*

      I asked a friend who worked in HR to call my old boss to make sure he didn’t say anything that sounded like his usual self (everyone, and I do mean everyone, was stupider than him, incompetent and just barely hanging onto their job.) He didn’t, and that was a relief. I’m not sure what I would have done if he had said otherwise.

      I don’t think other area codes would be odd. I’ve talked to recruiters that live in one state, but are recruiting halfway across the country.

  8. KatieKate*

    I START MY NEW POSITION ON TUESDAY and I am absolutely terrified. And I have no idea why. I know the department and have worked with them before, but anytime someone asks me if I’m excited I completely freeze up. I don’t know a reason why this won’t be the easiest transition ever, but anxiety doesn’t play by the rules. UGH

    4. overeducated*

      I know what you mean! I just started a new job, people kept asking if I was excited and I was like “That’s not how my personality works….”

    5. Christopher Tracy*

      The same thing happened to me almost eight months ago when I finally transitioned to my new division from my old one. I’d worked with this group twice before during my training program (a rarity), and they loved me, so I shouldn’t have been so nervous – but I was. Try to relax as best as you can this weekend. I know that’s easier said than done, but once you get to work on Tuesday and refamiliarize yourself with the group and the work, you should start to feel better (and if you don’t – take a minute and breathe).

      1. KatieKate*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one! At least I’ll have a door in this new position that I can close if I get too overwhelmed :)

    6. Becky*

      Congratulations! It’s perfectly normal to have new job anxiety. Is there a chance that you’re telling yourself that you shouldn’t be nervous because you know the environment? If I do that and don’t acknowledge that I have a legitimate reason to be nervous (new jobs = new responsibilities = scary!), my anxiety goes through the roof.

    7. MommaTRex*

      I got anxious and nervous just reading this – thinking about what it would be like to move into a new department at my place of employment, which I love. Knots in my stomach just thinking about it. So I think what you are feeling is completely normal. I bet you will be feeling much better by Wednesday.

    8. Golden Lioness*

      Congrats! It will all work out. Show up with a big smile and a positive can do attitude and You’ll be great!
      Good luck!

    9. Jordan*

      When they did brain imaging studies of the brain during periods of anxiety and excitement, they found that the brain reacted to them both in the same way. So, its all a matter of perception. Maybe try to think of it as excited butterflies about starting the new position, rather than anxiety about starting it. Basically, try to change the conversation in your brain.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      There have been times when I have gotten something I wanted and instead of basking in the joy of getting it, I become loaded up with worry.

      Use affirmations. Deliberately tell yourself reassuring things. “I will do my best and I will succeed at this job.” or “I am willing to work hard so things will go well over all here.”

      Congrats. Take one day at a time and do your best each day. I think you will do great. In my years supervising, the most worrisome people were the ones who did NOT worry about their jobs.

  9. DevAssist*

    Hey! I’m here pretty early this week! Woohoo!

    Question for all- if any of you have experience working two jobs at a time, would you mind sharing what that was like? I’m considering applying for a PT Retail job on top of my current FT job, so that I can save more money and get to a financially stable place where I can quit my FT job and look for work that is a better fit. (Right now, I am so miserable I have physical symptoms of depression/anxiety).

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I worked two jobs my first ten years of teaching (retail/restaurant) and I have two recommendations: have the evening job as close to home as possible since you will be more tired than you think and don’t overschedule. I usually worked 3 nights a week and I really enjoyed it (plus clothing discount or free food!)

      I am an extrovert who enjoys people so I found retail and cocktailing fun and relaxing. Find a second job that you would really enjoy (bookstore, pet store, coaching club sports) and I think you will find that the time goes by quickly.

      Good luck!

    2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Whew–it’s hard. I’d say the ideal scenario for something like that would be if you could have a fixed retail schedule, so if you work in the office from 8 to 5, then you work Tuesday and Thursday evenings from 6-10 and Saturdays 10-6 or something like that. For me, the hardest part was juggling a very changeable retail schedule, because it got really difficult to settle into a routine on top of the first job. I’d also be careful that your performance at your FT job doesn’t fall if you end up working weird hours or late nights at the second job, especially during the first part where you’re learning and trying to get used to the new schedule.

      If you’re already struggling with anxiety/depression, be really really careful to block out some time for yourself to unwind. I know it’s important to save up and be financially stable, but it can be really useful to yourself to block out at least one day a week–say, Monday nights or whenever–that you’re not available for the second job, so you can know for sure you’ll have some downtime to yourself. When I was in retail we had plenty of people working multiple jobs, and it’s really easy to get burned out quickly if you don’t make a deliberate effort to look after yourself. Especially coming into the hectic holiday season!

      1. DevAssist*

        Thanks guys! My work schedule now is 7AM-4PM, so the PT would have to be evenings and weekends (and the PT would be a shorter commute/closer to home than my current job!)

        1. WellRed*

          I’d figure out how many hours you think you can handle, and ideally, apply at a place you like what they sell. Oh, and it gets easier after the first few shifts! My first couple I was so exhausted.

    3. Christy*

      Go us looking for second jobs!

      For your anxiety/depression, have you sought out a therapist or perhaps medication? I only ask because really, nothing has helped with my anxiety as much as taking low-dose daily medicine for it. It doesn’t have to be a forever solution for you! It took me a really long time to seek out medicine, and I wish I’d tried it earlier.

      1. DevAssist*

        I was on a low-dose antidepressant for about a year or two in college, and it did help A LOT.

        I need to see my doctor and talk to her about starting medication again.

    4. Tuckerman*

      If you’re working FT, it may be hard to land a PT gig. Where I live, lots of businesses want full time (or near full time) availability for part time work. You may have more options if businesses in your area are open late or you’re willing to work both Saturdays and Sundays.
      Would it make sense to use the time you would work PT to job search aggressively for a new FT job instead? I’m all for having a side gig, but it sounds like getting out of your current FT job is your biggest priority right now.

      1. DevAssist*

        Totally. FT work in fields I enjoy/am well-fitted are kind of slim right now, and I think if I was able to pick up PT work for at least a little while, I can pad my savings so that I can leave my FT job to work on finding work/caring for my mental health.

      2. Anxa*

        “Where I live, lots of businesses want full time (or near full time) availability for part time work. ”

        I wish more people understood this before telling people to just get a second job. I’m only part-time and have a regular schedule and 3 consecutive days off, and yet I cannot tell you how many employers wouldn’t consider me.

        I tip my hat to anyone that not only works multiple jobs, but who manages to land those subsequent jobs in the first place.

        The funny thing is that before college graduation, I worked multiple jobs and don’t remember having this issue.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Annnd if you work full time for that retailer they expect 24/7 availability. If you have a doctor’s appointment or something, then you are not available therefore you are failing to provide 24/7 availability. Sigh.
          The best bet with retail is to stay under the radar by remaining classified as part time. Make sure that you tell them that you are not available one day a week. This will give you down time.

    5. Nicole J.*

      I have a main job now and an online job, but the online job is very very flexible, so I tend to put in an hour in the morning while I’m still in bed and then a couple of hours when I get home, while I watch TV or listen to the radio. But being flexible and online, it’s much easier than having to physically head somewhere else.

      A few years ago I had a main job and a part-time evening job as I needed some extra money. I worked as a waitress – prefer food service to retail – for an independent hotel/restaurant locally. It was only three shifts a week, two evening shifts starting at 6pm and a weekend shift that usually began at noon or 2pm. I had time to rush home after the main job, have a quick drink, wash and change, and head to the other job. I was tired all the time but it was worth it for the year I did it. I also worked double shifts on all the holiday days for the double pay – there was always a shift available then as so many people wanted that time off. It helped that the managers organised shifts for a month ahead so that I could plan my weeks, too, and that the nature of the work naturally fitted around my main job.

      One thing – although I was working a lot and on my feet a lot I found I actually put on weight as I ate so many rushed ready-meals and quick snacks to keep me going. I also felt I didn’t see my husband enough during that time and that did put a bit of a strain on the relationship. When I did have proper time off I didn’t want to do much, either – just rest.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      Find something you love and work at their store. I work a full + part time and I’ve considered picking up a holiday job at an Aveda Store or a few very special retailers where I love the products. When you love the products, it makes it so easy to go into work and easy to get past rude customers.
      I have a fixed schedule. I have to know that I go in every Tuesday and Thursday evening and that’s it. No calling the day before to get my schedule for the next day. That will drain you.
      And you have to be able to figure out when you will eat. It sounds silly, but if you are going directly from one job to the next, then you will get drained and cranky if you don’t get dinner.

      1. WellRed*

        Agree with all of this. I love books, so why not Borders? Se schedule, and pack lunch and dinner if going from one job to the other.

    7. EddieSherbert*

      Think carefully about it if you work overtime at job #1. If you travel, do events on weekends or in evening, are on-call, etc. it gets even trickier.

      I hope it works out!

    8. Venus Supreme*

      It’s pretty exhausting. I worked FT and PT in New York City and lived about an hour via train in NJ. My FT job was very toxic and draining (same as you, physical symptoms of depression and anxiety), and I was lucky to have supportive coworkers at my PT job who would lend a sympathetic ear or have a drink ready for me (when I was off the clock). They also were willing to increase my hours if I ever needed to drop my FT job at any time. Be ready for long days and not much time at home. I ended up finding a FT job closer to home with better pay and keep the PT job for weekends just to keep in touch with friends.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Other jobs I worked on the side that I would do again in a heartbeat: dog walking, babysitting, housekeeping, bartending

        1. Venus Supreme*

          Oh also also: I’m not sure where you are located, but working box office in a theatre company is pretty fun for nights and weekends, and some companies pay a lot better than minimum wage. That was my PT job when I was at the bad FT job. It’s good if you’re into theatre and you enjoy customer service. I found working retail was somewhat mind-numbing for me. Just some suggestions! :)

          1. DevAssist*

            Theatre is my passion! I’m looking for FT development work for a creative (or preferably theatre-based) nonprofit, so that would be ideal! Where I live, however, there aren’t a lot of local theatre groups, so at the moment I don’t think there are any openings (despite my network of creative friends).

            I also love cosmetics, so I’m looking at PT/flex work for a beauty department.

            1. Venus Supreme*

              Awesome! I work FT development in theatre. I love it. It’s so rewarding. I’m sending you good vibes & positive energy you find a fulfilling and successful job in theatre. Playbill will show some good job postings (that’s how I got my foot in the door), even though the postings are 95% in NYC. Transitioning from Box Office/House Managing to theatre fundraising was pretty smooth too!

              Hopefully, some how and some way, you keep us updated, DevAssist!

    9. AdAgencyChick*

      I did this one summer back when I was in college — worked an admin job at my university during the day, and retail at night. It wasn’t easy, but it did give me a better cushion to buy books and have fun money the following semester than I would have if I’d just worked one job or the other.

      You might have to avoid some of the very large retailers that have very changeable scheduling nowadays? I’m totally not talking from experience here, just from having read about how big retailers now use algorithms to make quick staffing changes based on anticipated demand, and therefore they want you available all the time. A smaller or medium-sized store might be more willing to take on someone who has defined availability.

    10. HoVertical*

      I have actually worked up to four jobs at a time – one full-time, one heavy part-time, and two casual/on-call. The biggest problem for me was the disconnect between the FT, office, state agency, cool, professional demeanor at all times job; and the PT, retail music store, nights and weekends, friendly, warm demeanor at all times job. Oh, did I love the music store job, though. It made the drudgery of the day job bearable. It was a classic “do what you love and the money will follow” situation. If I could have stayed there and had the excellent benefits I had at the state job, I would have done so in a heartbeat. As it was, I was let go along with all the other holiday help, and the chain folded three years later.

    11. C Average*

      It’s doable, so long as a few conditions are met.

      Let’s say Job #1 is a Monday-Friday, 9-5 office gig and Job #2 is a 15-20 hour per week retail position. Here’s what you’d need from each of them.

      Job #1

      –reasonable expectation that your duties and hours won’t change.
      –plenty of advance warning about travel and/or off-schedule duties or functions.
      –clear understanding that your availability may be limited during your out-of-office hours (i.e., you may be delayed in answering phone calls or emails, and you may not be able to stay late if someone wants your help).

      Job #2

      –awareness of and respect for the hours you’re obligated to be at Job #1.
      –a culture that is understanding of your inability to be flexible, pick up shifts, etc. (I’ve worked in some retail establishments where declining to pick up a shift was no big deal at all. I’ve worked in others where, because everyone was generally willing to cover for each other as needed, someone who didn’t have that ability would’ve stood out and looked bad).

      1. ScarletInTheLibrary*

        Also consider if you will have to request shifts off at second job due to obligations with the first. For example, there may be a rotation at main job to cover Saturday and/or Sunday shifts. Make sure you request those days off far enough in advance (i.e. Before the schedule is published). If you are in an environment where you have to find someone to cover your shifts, then it becomes even more glaring to coworkers. And if it is happening a lot, coworkers can get jaded and decide not to cover shifts.

    12. SophieChotek*

      Like other have already said; it’s hard but potentially do-able
      Earlier this year I was working a FT day job (8am-4:30pm).
      And then I worked an evening job (5pm-9:30pm).
      I ate lots of leftovers; FT job was close enough to evening job (10 minutes down the road) so I never had to worry about traffic.
      And then on weekends I worked 1 day at the coffee shop.
      It was do-able because the evening job was consistent hours; it would not have worked with a retail job where they might schedule me weird hours that would conflict with my FT job. So make sure that is clear.
      Best of luck!

      Try to get as much sleep as you can, eat healthily (as possible, with virtually no time to cook), exercise if you can.
      For me, it helped knowing that the evening job was a seasonal (4-6 month gig) so I knew it was not forever; but useful and necessary to save up extra money to pay off student loans, etc.

    13. Namast'ay In Bed*

      I worked a (practically) full-time retail position the summer after I graduated college and then went down to part-time after I got a full-time office job in the Fall. I know the starting experience is different from your situation, since I had already proven myself and learned the ropes so they were happy to keep me on, even in a reduced manner, and it made the transition very easy.

      But as far as working a FT job and a PT retail job at the same time? In the beginning it wasn’t too bad, but my main job turned out to be incredibly stressful and terrible (should have known when orientation included proper procedures for when [not if] you had to excuse yourself to go cry in the bathroom), and it kinda sucked giving up my time off to work. I stuck it out working both for a couple years, mostly because I really loved going to my retail job way more than my office job. My PT coworkers were awesome, the customers were great, I had managers invested in my well-being and learning, and it was nice to go to a job where I felt valued and not a screw-up. The reason I stopped doing it mainly was how long it took to get to the PT job: I got a new FT job that made the commute almost impossible for me to work evenings, and made weekend days extremely long, but we were able to part amicably, since they knew about my other job (and supported their employees moving on to advance their careers). I still think very fondly of my time with the PT job, which is something I’m not able to say about my past FT jobs.

      To sum up this long post: a short commute to the PT job is essential, make sure they know about your FT job and are willing/able to work with it, and make sure you actually enjoy the PT job, because giving up your free time from a job you hate for another job you hate is a surefire way to make yourself miserable.

    14. Caity*

      I had three at one point; a full time 9-5 corporate job, a 2-3 Saturdays (14 hour days) a month wedding job, and an as needed occasional babysitting job. Because they were all so different from each other I genuinely didn’t feel hassled and drained. Plus, I wasn’t locked into a schedule.

    15. migrant worker*

      I did this – I worked a full time job M-F and then a part time job that was mostly 1 day a week (Sunday) but occasionally I got asked to fill the 5-8 shift in the evenings. It was tough! I only got one day off (Saturday) so crammed everything non-work into that time.

      It mostly worked because I had a fairly flexible FT job. So I would leave early the days I needed to work the PT job, and then stay late on other days to make sure my hours were covered and I got all my work done.

      I did this for about 8 months or so. Managed to pay off a lot of debt. :)

    16. Newish Reader*

      For about 15 years I worked a part-time job in addition to my full-time job. There are several banks in my area that hire for Saturday-only tellers, so that’s what I did. Because my FT job was Monday-Friday, I could work at the bank on Saturday and still have Sunday for all the myriad things that need to be done at home.

      At least in my area, banks pay their part-time Saturday higher than minimum wage as it’s cheaper than paying overtime to their FT staff to work on Saturday. In order to achieve a similar hourly rate in retail, I would have had to work many more hours per week.

    17. mskyle*

      I did this for 5+ years – I had a FT Sunday-Thursday or Monday-Friday job (first one, then the other) plus a Saturday job (9-5 at a museum). I was also in grad school part-time for most of that time.

      I liked the one-day-a-week job a lot, which helped. Working two jobs saved me money in two ways: #1, I was earning more money, and #2 I had no freaking time/energy to spend the money I earned! It was doable but my social life really suffered.

      Having a regular schedule at both jobs is almost essential.

    18. Elizabeth*

      I don’t have any tips on juggling two jobs (whew!), and I know that you’re looking for retail, but I strongly suggest babysitting. I did this while I was in grad school and then job hunting and it’s actually pretty great money — particularly if you are a bit older (read, not in high school) and have your own transportation. I marketed myself in Facebook moms’ groups, at the local library and co-op, etc. and found some great families with steady work. It took a bit to “get going” but once I did, I could count on 2-3 gigs per week. Depending on your location, you can charge $10+ an hour (I made $20/hr when I lived in DC, sigh). On an “average” week I’d make an extra $50 or $60 and on a “good” week I could clear $200. The best part about it was that I was able to make the call about my schedule — if I wanted to take a gig or not. Downside of course is that you’re not guaranteed a gig and you’ll likely give up a lot of Saturday nights. Just an idea — good luck in your hunt!

    19. jax*

      I worked two jobs, 60 hours a week for 9 months. It was exhausting but worth it. My full time job was in a university library where I talked to zero people each day and my part time job was at the public library where I talked to everyone and their mother each night. Three days a week I worked 8am-9pm, two days 8am-4:30pm and one day 8:30am-5pm. Luckily my jobs were a half mile from each other so I could walk between the two of them.

      I used my day off (Sunday) to cook all the meals for the week. My two crockpots were my best friends. I drank a lot of wine at night to wind down. That was probably not great for my health but I needed a release and wine and cheese at the end of the day is just so tasty. I have a partner that was willing to do a lot of the every day type things-cleaning, cooking meals I didn’t get prepped on Sunday, etc. But I would have managed if it was just me, I think (less meals to cook!). Otherwise it was just one foot in front of another until the day was over.

      Getting paid every week was a huge motivating factor for me. Also, I really loved both my jobs so that made it worth it to me. I wouldn’t suggest trying to do an ultra physical job if you are going to be working that many hours, but retail might not be too exhausting physically.

    20. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      I worked 7 days a week for a little less than 3 years.

      It drains you in a way it’s hard to articulate. Knowing that every single day of my life was work make me feel sick and hopeless inside, like there was nothing worth getting excited about or looking forward to.

      I gained a ton of weight because I had no time to cook to shop frequently for produce and other healthy things.

      Every time my first job ran a bit over, I was in a panic over whether I would make it to the second job on time, so I was constantly clock-watching, and it made me look like I was more concerned about getting out than about doing the job right.

      I do not recommend it, if you can avoid it. If it’s a necessity, try to find something that doesn’t require you to accept a revolving schedule. In PT retail or serving, that will be nearly impossible.

    21. Kittens*

      I have 4 jobs! I’ve had at least 2 on and off for years, and honestly I really like it! The absolute key for me is having an ironclad scheduling system. I color code the crap out of my Google Calendar app and really really make it work for me. That way I can go on scheduling autopilot. I think it’s fun to have more than one job because I’m a generally high energy person, I get bored easily so the variety works for me, and my partner is 100% freelance so a 9-5 wouldn’t do much for me anyway. Just watch for burnout!

    22. Yetanotherjennifer*

      Retail involves a lot of standing which can wear you out faster than you think. You’re going to have an adjustment period while you get used to the additional physical demand. Also, bring a second pair of shoes to change into. Even if you always wear flats at your day job, a fresh pair of shoes make a big difference.

      I’ve worked retail as a second job before but not for many years so I can’t speak to the scheduling challenges. At my last retail job I worked only Friday nights to close. It was just enough to get the discount and I enjoyed the change of pace to end the week. Retail is great because it doesn’t carry over from one day to the next; you can show up, do what needs to be done, and leave it behind when you go home. At my particular shop it was easy for me to set myself apart from the crowd simply by showing up on time as scheduled with a good attitude and I know I got a lot of flexibility in return.

    23. Anon13*

      I did this for about 2.5 years. Others have given great advice! It works best if the part time job is close to either home or your full time job. It also works best if your part time job is really only 40 hours a week. I had to stop the second (part time) job when: 1) I moved and my full time job was close to my new home, with my part time job being in another area of the city and 2) My full time job really picked up and I was working 55-60 hours a week there. I also agree that the part time job must be something you love! Mine was at Sephora and I have loved experimenting with makeup for as long as I can remember. I also love talking to people and helping women feel their best. (It sounds silly, but many women who had never worn makeup before left our store with a huge smile on their faces. A few even cried happy tears.) There’s no way I could have done another part time office job. Now, I work a part time work from home job in addition to my full time job and, though I miss the “talking to people” aspect, I absolutely love it due to the flexibility. On a side note, thought you can’t control this, having people you love working with at the part time job helps a ton, too! I would try to think of stores where you always seem to jibe with the employees. Good luck; you’ve got this!

        1. Bibliovore*

          It is only in the last 4 years that I haven’t had a part-time job while working full time. We needed the money to make ends meet living in NYC. I also felt like I was never not working as the part-time work was freelance that I could do from home. I was stressed and exhausted but looking back I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have my present position without the diversity of experience the free-lance gigs provided. Also the whole tenure bid was like working a part-time job so felt very familiar. I do have a fine sense of efficient use of time as well as knowing exactly what my time is worth.

    24. Nanani*

      I started freelancing on the side while working FT, and all I can say is expect to have ZERO free time or extra energy while you are doing this. That might actually help with your goals since you’ll be too busy to spend all that money you’re making.

      Good luck!

  10. Applesauced*

    I know this is a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things, but someone at work keeps taking my coffee mug.
    There’s a cabinet in the office pantry where people leave mugs, bowls, cups, etc overnight after washing them. I brought a mug to work (OG mug) to work, wrote my name on the bottom, and kept it in the cabinet with other mugs.
    A few months ago, it was gone when I got in. It reappeared in the cabinet (dirty) about a week later. This has happened three times now, and this mug is the only one that gets taken. (I mean, it’s a pretty nice mug. It changes color when it’s hot/cold and has a photo of coffee plant on it. It’s a badass mug)

    I can leave OG mug on my desk instead of in the cabinet, but that’s inconvenient. Earlier this week, I put the mug in the cabinet with a note that said “this is not your mug” inside, but that seems like something a crazy person would do.
    I’m starting to feel a bit like Moss from IT Crowd…

    Any other stories about things disappearing in your office? Other little office things that irrationally bug you?

    1. Christy*

      From what you’ve described, it sounds like it’s a communal dishes area. I would assume that any dish left there is available for the taking, and the person is taking yours because it’s the best. When I’ve been in offices with a communal dishes area, I’ve just kept my mug on my desk, because I don’t want to share my mug.

      I might be off base in my assumption that anything in that area seems like fair game to your coworkers, but it also seems like an easy fix to leave your mug at your desk.

      2. Joseph*

        Yeah, most offices have a cabinet with just communal dishes in the break room so that people can just grab a mug and fill right up. IME, it typically runs about 50% mugs with the current company logo, 25% old mugs from with the old logo, and then a mishmash of other random stuff that people brought in at one time or another and just sort of left. I don’t think it’s a purposeful thing, your mug just happened to be closest to the front.
        That said, if you really, really don’t want to leave it at your desk, I guess your only other option is to put it way at the back of the cabinet (and/or on an awkwardly high/low shelf), so it’s a significant effort for someone else to grab it.

      3. Ella*

        +1. This is what I would assume, too, and I’d find the note passive aggressive. A better option would be your desk- then there’s no misunderstanding.

      4. neverjaunty*

        I’m with you on people thinking it’s a communal dish area, except for the part where the mug showed up again dirty. That’s just a jerk move.

        Applesauced, definitely keep it at your desk.

      5. Aca-Believe It*

        Yeah. At my work anything in the cupboard is communal and if it’s your own mug you keep it on your desk.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Someone took my favorite pen off my desk – I’m sure it was an absent minded “hey I need a pen oh there’s one” because it wasn’t valuable or anything. But it was a smooth-writing black gel pen that I loved and it’s gone :(

      Also, re: mug, someone here had a favorite mug that disappeared, and they posted a picture and sign in the coffee area, with increasing intensity. It finally reappeared.

        1. ThatGirl*

          That might be what it was?!

          I have a zillion pens, we actually sell them – it’s just none are quite as good as that one. (I have a few at home, too, so I could bring one back with me to work.)

          1. ancolie*

            Oh man, I totally get you. I’m an unabashed pen geek* and even if you have a favorite model, there can be individual pens (same model) that are just … extra awesome? Like the stars aligned and the gods smiled on that exact pen during manufacturing and it’s just a bit smoother and darker and stuff.

            * I write microscopically and I’ve discovered the wonders of Japanese gel pens made for the Japanese/east Asian market. Pilot, Pentel and Uni-Ball make incredibly fine-point pens that they don’t market over here. My Official Pen is the Uniball Signo DX 0.28mm in black-brown gel ink.

        2. Liane*

          That’s a very good one. Another very good, inexpensive one is InkJoy, which also has ballpoints, for people who prefer those. (It may be a Walmart brand, I haven’t seen them anywhere else)

          2. Chocolate Teapot*

            I spent a lot of my job taking minutes and the quest to find the perfect pen is never ending!

            Pilot gel pens are nice to write with, especially if they have the silicone finger grip, but at the moment, my ideal pen is a Uni-ball eye, which writes very smoothly.

          3. AliceBD*

            I just bought another box of InkJoy for at home. The ballpoint kind. They are GREAT. Definitely my favorite pens. (At work I get whatever the office manager gives out.)

        3. Kimberlee, Esq*

          G2’s were the standard pen that debaters used when I debated in college (this was true across like a 4 state area). :) Personally, I’m super happy my workplace got some Precise V7s, they are just tops.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I keep my mug on my desk. This morning I found a Twix in it! (Thanks, anonymous student/colleague!)

    4. Temperance*

      I keep my mug in my office for just this reason. It’s not that big of a deal, since I have to walk to get coffee.

    5. Lady Dedlock*

      A very similar thing happened to me. I brought a pretty mug from Anthropologie to work, and couldn’t leave it in the dish drainer without it disappearing for days at a time. I eventually hung a sign in the kitchen with a photo of the mug, asking if anyone had seen it. A coworker promptly returned it to me and said she thought it was a communal mug (really???). So now I wash it, dry it promptly, and keep it in my office. It’s a bit annoying to have to do that, but not nearly as annoying as my nice mug going missing.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Yep, really. It was common practice at all my previous jobs for mugs in the kitchen to be communal. I usually kept my special mugs at my desk.

      2. Bex*

        I don’t think it’s weird that she thought that… thinks left in communal areas are usually up for grabs. For example, if I bring in lunch in tupperware, I make sure to wash it and dry it and bring it back to my desk otherwise it ends up in the cabinet for anyone to use.

        1. Lady Dedlock*

          Eh, I don’t know. The communal dishes at my workplace tend to be not super nice. They’re either really generic looking, or have a logo on them and were obviously a freebie from some conference or other. A more decorative mug like mine stands out as different and is, in my eye, unlikely to be the sort of thing someone would abandon to the communal property collection. Maybe if it were in the cabinet, I could see grabbing it, but when it was disappearing, it was being taken from the dish rack in the morning by someone who gets to work earlier than I do.

    6. Audiophile*

      I have no real advice, but I can commiserate with you.

      I’ve experienced this with things I’ve put in fridges at different jobs.

      If there wasn’t liquid missing from it, it grew legs and walked off.

      I’ve never had anyone take my coffee mug, to my recollection.

      1. Drew*

        We have a Sharpie hung inside the fridge so we can label our stuff. Not only does it reduce the “Who used up all my hazelnut vanilla cinnamon chipotle creamer?” questions, it lets the person cleaning out the fridge call out the people who leave leftovers in there for weeks at a time.

    7. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      That would drive me bonkers, so I don’t think you’re being irrational at all! I always keep stuff at my desk/work area, though, and in my current project work use a travel mug that I take home every day as we can be laid off at any time.

    8. Ama*

      Maybe store it in the cabinet upside down so people can see your name on it? But I don’t actually think it’s that bad to have a note on it that says “Applesauced’s Personal Mug – Please Do Not Use.” The only real explanation I can think of is that somehow a coworker is under the mistaken impression it’s either a communal mug or they have permission to use it (maybe Coworker A gave Coworker B permission to use Coworker A’s mug and they somehow got confused and thought your mug was the one they were supposed to use?). So a sign should help clear that up.

      Although speaking from experience, if your cabinet is a mix of personal and communal dishes, keeping it at your desk is really the only way to keep the most clueless of your coworkers from using your mug by mistake anyway.

      1. The Red Bowl Is Only On Loan*

        We have a collection of old mugs, dishes, and serving utensils at work and my assumption of something was in the cupboard with a name on it was that the name was written on it because of potluck a or other communal food-sharing events and that it was subsequently donated to the collection when the owner no longer wanted/needed it.

        If you have a specific mug that you don’t want others to use, there is no 100% guarantee of that happening in an office environment. The closest you will get is keeping it in your office/cube/desk drawer. Keeping it in a communal storage area signifies that it is communal property, whether that’s what you intended or not.

        1. Blossom*

          Yeah, I’d assume the owner might have moved on and left their mug behind. At my office we have the generic plain mugs that are bought by the organisation, freebies with supplier logos, photo mugs featuring employees past and present, with in-jokes that may no longer mean anything to anyone here, various other mugs that may have been someone’s once… I keep my own mug in my locker.

    9. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Ya, it’s a pain but I leave my mug on my desk for this reason. What is odd is odd is that your name is on it and they still do it.

      Has it been taken since the note was put in it?

    10. Venus Supreme*

      Definitely keep it in your turf. As someone with food allergies, I keep my favorite mug and such in my office so that people don’t take my mug, use it, then leave it dirty, then I use it and have an allergic reaction. I had something happen like that to me when I lived in college with 11 other people. Y’know?

    11. Isben Takes Tea*

      I’ll add to the anecdata that if the mug is in the communal cupboard, it’s implied it’s a communal mug. It may be inconvenient to keep it at your desk, but my sense is that private property is stored in private spaces (otherwise you have to contend with private property taking up communal storage space).

    12. Dust Bunny*

      I keep my mugs in my desk. We have communal mugs but they’re a mixed bag of hand-me-downs so people can’t be expected to notice that mine is special or remember which one it is. Slightly less convenient, I guess, but not THAT big a deal and better than losing track of them.

    13. Lily in NYC*

      I am irrationally furious that someone goes around to all of the fridges every morning and takes all of the ice from each one. I can’t figure out why she needs so much ice. On a less irritated note, there’s a doggie visiting the office today and I am in love with him. He is sleeping on my lap right now.

      1. Chriama*

        That’s bizzare! Are we talking 1 or 2 ice cube trays or one of those fridges with the automatic ice makers with big buckets of cubes?

        Also, on an unrelated note I really like ice in my water so I fill it up before I leave home, and it sucks that I can’t refill the ice at work :(

        1. Lily in NYC*

          They are fridges with an automatic ice maker and they aren’t very large. The woman goes to 7 fridges and fills up several large stainless steel water bottles with all the ice she can get. She must hide it in the freezer closest to where she sits and use it throughout the day.

          1. Chriama*

            That’s insane. I would love to go in one day and just beat her to it. I imagine both of you coming in increasingly earlier to beat the other to the ice.

            On a more practical note, have you thought about talking to her? Ask her if she could maybe fill up the bottles at the *end* of the day before she leaves so the ice cubes can replenish overnight and be available for the rest of the office to use? Overall though, that’s a very inconsiderate thing to do unless she comes in several hours earlier than the rest of the office and it only takes a couple hours to refill the ice.

            1. Amtelope*

              Yeah, I admit to using an entire ice tray’s worth of ice sometimes at work to make iced tea, but we have five or six ice trays (and I refill the tray I’ve used), so I’m not leaving everyone else deprived. Deciding I needed to use ALL the ice would not be okay.

          2. Joseph*

            Does she not realize that ice cube trays are a thing? For like $2 at Walmart, you can buy an ice cube tray, take 30 seconds to fill it with water at night, then you come in and have literally dozens of ice cubes immediately available.
            I’d honestly suggest you get one yourself to fix the situation, except there’s a 98% chance she’d take the ice from *that* too.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          He’s up for adoption and I think one of my coworkers is going to take him! Yay! I have gotten nothing done today because I keep visiting him.

        2. Ashie*

          I’m working from home today thanks to Hermine, and my puppy is sitting on my lap because she’s scared of the storm. Poor baby!

      3. Colette*

        I read this comment at work and it reminded me that I’d left an ice pack upstairs when my desk moved downstairs.

        (I clearly do not take all the ice.)

      4. Hlyssande*

        There was a puppy outside the office earlier this week when I went to lunch and I very nearly squealed.

        Eee!

    14. C Average*

      I have a Wheaties bowl that’s shaped like a basketball. I saved box tops to get it. It’s just a plastic bowl, but it’s cool and I like it. I used to keep it at the office for my morning oatmeal.

      One day it went missing. I sent out a “have you seen my Wheaties bowl?” email to my department, but no one had seen it. (Everyone was familiar with it. I got many comments from coworkers about how cool it was.)

      Fast-forward a few months. It’s Saturday. I’m the only one in the office, seizing some quiet time to finish a big project. I’m walking down the hall when a flash of orange on the floor catches my eye. It’s my Wheaties bowl under a colleague’s desk–and it’s full of DOG KIBBLE. He had been bringing his dog to work and he had stolen my bowl out of the kitchen to feed his dog.

      I grabbed it, took it home, ran it through the dishwasher, and have it to this day. I never mentioned it to the colleague in question, but I never thought of him quite the same way after that incident.

        1. C Average*

          I don’t think he was. He worked in an adjacent department with a lot of overlap with my department. I sent the email to a fairly short list–I didn’t want to blast the whole office with “have you seen my Wheaties bowl?”

    16. Purest Green*

      +100 for the Moss reference. I immediately thought of that after reading your first paragraph. And I agree with the other commentors that keeping it at your desk might be the only solution.

    17. PatPat*

      I’d be super annoyed by that, too. Can you hide it in the back of the cabinet? I think your note is good, though or put it in a ziplock bag and write DO NOT USE on the bag.

      My office refrigerator doesn’t have ice in it so I bring a ziplock baggie of ice with me. People keep taking my ice! I don’t mind too much if they take a little but I’m a germaphobe and I KNOW that they’re getting my ice with hands that were just on doorknobs or keyboards, plus they don’t seal my baggie back up so if I don’t check it, goodbye ice. So irritating!

    18. zora.dee*

      at a former job my mug and my spoon disappeared out of the drying rack within MINUTES of washing them a couple different times, and then would vanish for days before finally showing up again. I gave up and every time I washed my stuff: Dried it with paper towels and put it back in my desk.

      Even then, one time my mug actually disappeared off my desk overnight (we had a second shift that shared our desks) and I was livid. So, started putting it IN my desk drawer. I think you just have to put in the extra effort to keep it at your desk if you don’t want others using it, people just don’t know what belongs to people and what is up for grabs. They aren’t doing it to be jerks.

        1. zora.dee*

          Seriously. Gah, it still drives me crazy just thinking about it.
          To be fair, the second shift was high-turnover, lots of young people/first jobs, etc, so I figured it was someone who just didn’t think about it, and we reinforced the next shift that they shouldn’t touch things on desks that were not theirs. But it was so weird that it disappeared for a couple of days before it turned up again, it was a small office I couldn’t figure out where it was hiding!

    19. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I have a thing about other people using my dishes so I just keep them at my desk. Yes it’s a bit more inconvenient, but at least by doing this I have them when I need them!

    20. Purpensia*

      I recently received a framed five year award on my start date anniversary. It came with a gold pin that was taped to the corner. Someone stole the pin :(

      It is a cheap pin, but damnit, I earned it! And kind of crappy that someone stole it off my desk.
      :(

  11. Mazzy*

    More of a vent than anything. I am just at my wits ends with my job, maybe my career I feel like no matter what my successes are, they just don’t matter at my current job. No dollar value saved or brought in or hours worked or problem solved get any reaction. I work at one of those places where you do all your negotiating up front, and then there aren’t reviews or much feedback as to whether you actually deserve the title or salary you negotiated. I didn’t know this, so took what I was offered and then asked for a salary increase, which I got, however, I hate this system of having to go to management instead of the other way around. Given the complexity and dollar value of my projects, and seeing that I’m doing higher level work than other people who earn more, I’ve been feeling under-paid again. Not badly paid, but underpaid compared to my peers and the area we are in (think less than $100K in central SF being mid career, sounds good but when you’re living it its basically paycheck to paycheck + some savings but not much). This is ruining my attitude. They want wine on a beer budget. It makes me feel like I can misbehave. It’s like “dating down” and one feels, rightly or wrongly, that they can mistreat their partner because they know the partner won’t leave. That”s how I feel about work now. I just felt like job hunting the other day so went in a few hours late. I don’t care. What are they going to do? Fire me? It just doesn’t matter. This is bad when you are a manager as well. I’m supposed to be neutral or happy and I just can’t put it together, I keep slipping and being sarcastic or snippy because I don’t care. I feel like I can easily get a job at the same pay level easily, even though I don’t just want any job, but I don’t feel like I have to be perfect because I’m in a great situation. I miss the years when I used to rush out of bed because I wanted to impress my boss by getting in extra early and when I was afraid of losing my jobs because the pay and circumstances were better than the prior one. Now I don’t care. I want to earn at least $10K more.

    1. K-VonSchmidt*

      I am experiencing a similar feeling. Maybe it’s a middle management thing…your bosses are busy with higher level stuff and don’t make time to still coach or mentor you, there’s no “plan”, there’s no real growth opportunities beyond more work or managing more people and projects and for what?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      That sucks. If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re both underpaid and underappreciated. I definitely think you should leave. Obviously, if you can get a job that both appreciates you and pays you well, yay! But if you can have at least one or the other, that still sounds better than what you have now. In other words, you can find a job that pays more but still underappreciates you in other ways or a job that pays about the same but at least appeciates you in non-monetary ways.

      Best of luck. I’m in SF, too, and making a lot less than you, even though you’re underpaid for your line of work. It’s tough here for everybody, even the people making “a lot.”

      1. Mazzy*

        Part of the issue is that I’ve made my career cleaning up business. That isn’t usually what I was hired to do though. The problem is that most companies think they do most things fine, so it’s only after I’m hired that I discover where the bodies lie and get down to the real work. I have no idea how to find those sorts of jobs unless through work of mouth. Certainly you can’t see that from a job ad.

        1. Jennifer*

          You’re creating expertise in a little-known and much-needed field! Write up a resume that highlights the “cleaning up business” aspect of things and make sure it emphasizes numbers of some kind. Hours or dollars or anything that can be measured and counted. And then post that resume on an appropriate job board and let recruiters who need your skills find YOU. Consider it a passive job search. And remember, it’s like with personals ads: you know who YOU are, but you don’t know who the COMPANIES are, so let them find you. (And consider doing contracts thru agencies if you don’t have the stomach for freelancing. You’re not self-employed for tax purposes, which keeps life much simpler.)

          FWIW, I’m also in the SF Bay Area. I do answer job ads but I have gotten most of my actual work thru people finding my resume online (sometimes recruiters, sometimes hiring managers).

          Places to post resumes: DICE, Monster, Indeed, LinkedIn — and Craigslist!

        2. Dynamic Beige*

          Or you could create your own job as a business coach/cleaner. “Most small/medium-sized companies/startups think that they do most things just fine… but when was the last time your business was audited? Have you ever had an employee send a complaint to the Labour Board? File an EEOC against you? Are you attracting the right talent through competitive hiring practices such as benefits and salaries above market?” Or whatever the main problems you see all the time with these companies. The trick is to hit on the hidden problem and that you are the person to provide the information this business needs to fix it. If you’re always finding where the bodies are buried, then you have a lot of things to pull from. “XCompany was audited every year for over 10 years. After working with them to improve their bookkeeping and reporting practices, they experienced their first-ever non-audit and threw a party to celebrate!”

          1. Mazzy*

            I love it. I never thought about that, maybe I will in 5 more years. I also have to think about how to phrase the “finding the bodies” part.

            I’m also curious how to approach short job stays. Not to toot my own horn, but I accomplished/knew more in a year or two at a few jobs than people who had been there for 5+ years, because I was getting my hands seriously dirty while everyone else was doing their same routine every day.

            But again, you can’t say that on an interview because then you look like you’re not a team player. And employers still want long term employees, even though it doesn’t always make sense….

    3. Chriama*

      I’m a little confused because it sounds like you got the raise when you asked for it. Why not ask for another one? Overall though, you sound really burned out. Can you take a long vacation or go on short-term disability or something? I think some time away from work will help you regain some perspective.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I get the part about not being appreciated. If you can shift your focus, do you appreciate what a terrific job you do? Just my opinion, but once we lose our self-satisfaction the going gets reeeeally tough. Try to get yourself to the point where you feel satisfaction in knowing that you did a job well.

      Look at this from the opposite side for a moment. Let’s say you have a job where the bosses all say you are doing great. But you are pretty certain your work sucks. What is noticeable here is that it does not truly matter what others think, at the very core what matters the most is what we think of our own efforts.

      So going back to your situation, it sounds insufferable. One thing that I have done, YMMV, of course, is to remind myself of all the ways I am building myself up to be a GREAT employee for someone ELSE. I built an image in my head of an employer who said, “NSNR, boy, I so appreciate how you are will to tackle all these strange things that come up. And you know how to build solutions.” I used my awful employer to sharpen me into a better employee for the next person.

      See, it’s human nature to want goals. If we feel we have no goals in our immediate life we can really flounder and struggle. Take back your goals. When things are bleak it is hard to develop goals. That is why I suggest framing your current setting as sharpening you for the next employer. If this does not resonate with you, perhaps you can find something else to target that does make sense in your setting.

      Maybe your solution is “Hey this company is draining the life force right out of me and I am going to say ‘F! NO!'” Or maybe you can reclaim parts of yourself by reminding yourself of how hard you have worked to be able to get into and stay in your arena and you don’t want to throw that away. Or it could be time to move to some other type of work. Only you know what you need here.

      Let us know how you are doing.

      1. Mazzy*

        No I don’t feel satisfaction from doing good work, I think I do need some outside recognition every once in a while. I mean, hypothetically, I could be doing things horribly and no one is telling me.

        Yes you are right, some sort of goals or structure is needed in life. I don’t want militant, but someone noticing when I am not there or noticing when I’m working a lot (or not) or saved alot of money or something would be nice. Then at least I’d know where I stand in the world. Is saving a $1M over a year a lot? Was it not enough for you? Do you think I could have saved $2M because of information you have? That would be meaningful information to have.

  12. CeeCeeBalle*

    Hi all. I recently graduated from university in a little-known discipline. My school has the only accredited program in Canada offering it. I’m struggling to find a job now that I’m graduated, and I was debating reaching out to some of my professors to see if they know of anyone looking for a new graduate? Is that a good idea? And if so, is it better to email them or visit them in person at the university?

    If it helps, the program itself is fairly new and there’s only been a few graduating classes.

    1. Anony*

      I think that should be fine. Emailing would be better than asking in person: give them time to pull together answers for you.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Many schools have a department that collects job leads for current students and graduates, have you checked on whether your school has something along those lines?

      1. CeeCeeBalle*

        There is a career development center, though I don’t know if they do much in the way of assisting recent graduates. I don’t think the university did a good job of making its services known: their website seems to have a lot of broken links and I don’t think it was ever mentioned to me as a student. Though in looking it up I did find out that the university has an upcoming career fair, with a fair number of company recuiters coming. Alumni are welcome, I’ll see if I can attend that.

        There’s also the department’s Co-operative Education office, because we did co-ops as part of the program. I’m not sure if they’d be worth contacting?

        1. animaniactoo*

          What’s the worst that happens if you contact them and it turns out they don’t have any help for you?

    3. H.C.*

      A brief, one-time email is fine with your recent professors, but I also agree with animaniactoo that your major’s admin office or the college’s career center should be able to cull and provide some job leads for recent grads and alums – so you may want to check with those resources first.

    4. EddieSherbert*

      Absolutely email them! They probably get a lot of that kind of information – I keep my college department informed of open positions at my company, exactly for that purpose!

      1. CeeCeeBalle*

        That’s very encouraging, then! The program head seems to take a lot of pride in the program and cares about students, and all the professors do a lot of work with some of the major companies in the industry.

    5. migrant worker*

      also whoever runs the programme – admin or otherwise – probably gets contacted for people with this degree?

    6. James*

      Did the same thing–not many paleontology jobs out there!

      I would say that yes, emailing your professors would be a good idea. They’ve done this before, trust me, and are usually willing to help former students. Also, reach out to anyone else you met during college. Did you attend a conference? Give a talk somewhere? Have friends in the same field? Ask around; you never know what might come of it.

      I’d also recommend being willing to take work that’s only related to your field. You may not get in right away, and having work experience sort of similar to what you studied (ie, not stocking shelves at a retail store or flipping burgers) can offer surprising benefits. It can also position you to be able to take advantage of opportunities you didn’t know existed, should they arise.

  13. NarrowDoorways*

    I need some wording advice for a meeting with the CEO next week. This is about the new salary law.

    So the office manager told me that no changes will be made to my pay once the salary laws change. Right now I’m exempt and working 45-60 hours a week.

    I’m trying to navigate how I’ll handle my new schedule–on my own, as the CEO seems to think the new law doesn’t apply to our company. I plan pick and show up at a regular time, leave the building for my half hour lunch instead of working through it, and go home for the day after exactly 8 hours. This will bring me down to what my original job offer stated of 37.5 hours a week.

    The CEO is refusing to read any of the articles on this new law (taken by me from Alison’s posts and sent to HR, who is trying to tell her she should be addressing it). The CEO feels that because we’re a small company–25 employees–we don’t count under this new salary law due to our size. Not true though. We’re not a non-profit, though I think that exception if for way fewer employees. Also, the company I work for was purchased by a very large corporation at the beginning of 2016…

    But here’s where things get tricky. I JUST found out that I’m going to be receiving a raise in the next week or two, but unrelated to the new salary law. But it’ll be the normal type of cost-of-living raise. And I seriously doubt it’ll be large enough to bump me to meet the new wage minimum. When I sit down with the CEO to discuss my raise, should I mention the salary law then?

    I’ll thank her for pushing the raise through, but I feel this would be a good opportunity to also gently ask about the changes to my job in December.

    How in the world does someone transition from expressing gratitude for a raise to gracefully explaining it’s not enough and that in 3 months, I’ll no longer meet many of my deadlines?

    1. Dawn*

      If your company has to comply with the law, then it has to comply with the law- no matter what your CEO thinks. And if your company was bought by a bigger company, then presumably your company plus bigger company equals more than 25 employees.

      Just go to the CEO and lay out the facts- here’s the law, here’s what it says, here’s how it applies to your situation, here’s what you’re going to do *to make sure that the company is compliant with the law*. Don’t even mention getting a raise to be past the overtime threshold, just say “beginning at [date that the law says I have to] I will be working [this many] hours per week in order to ensure that the company stays on the right side of the law. This means [consequences].” And then wait for the CEO to respond.

      1. Ella*

        Or just ask how the CEO would like to handle it– either reducing your hours to the amount you’ve mentioned, or paying you overtime for the additional hours. You could say something like, given the law, I’m planning to reduce my hours, but if you prefer, I could also continue to work my current number of hours, if you are able to pay me overtime for the additional hours.

        1. NarrowDoorways*

          Oh I like this phrasing too, thank you. Ask how she would like me to handle it put the ball in her court and forces her to directly address the issue.

          1. Ella*

            I’d also be prepared with information (articles, etc) if she says she thinks your organization doesn’t qualify. And if she keeps ignoring the issue, you can either reduce your number of hours and see what happens, or maybe report your company to the Department of Labor.

        2. Natalie*

          I think offering to work the overtime is potentially more risky – what if the CEO says “yeah, yeah, sure” and then just doesn’t pay their OT? It may be harder to walk that back at that point, plus you’ll have worked a bunch of extra hours for no extra money. This CEO sounds incredibly obstinate, so I’m not sure I’d trust them to fork over the money.

          1. Bob Barker*

            Not no money — just money you have to raise hell to get paid. (For “hell” read Department of Labor.)

            And… I’d call that a pro! If an obstinate person won’t follow the law, by golly, the law will let them know about it.

            1. Natalie*

              Sure, NarrowDoorways can pursue legal options for their required OT, but that is a) not exactly a quick solution and b) going to seriously damage their relationship with their employer. Yes, yes, they’re legally forbidden from retaliating, but in reality there are all kinds of subtle forms of retaliation that are hard or impossible to prove. And if they go for the obvious form of retaliation, NarrowDoorways is right back at a) waiting for a legal case to wrap up while they’re unemployed.

              It doesn’t sound like NarrowDoorways is ready to move on from this job yet, so it’s high risk to work the OT assuming they can just have the DOL step in if needed.

                1. Natalie*

                  Yes, I’m sure their boss will be open to hearing that and then immediately change their behavior.

                  Workers rights cases aren’t easy to pursue under the best of circumstances. Pursuing a rights case while you’re still working somewhere is likely going to be unbelievably stressful. It’s perfectly okay for the OP to decide this is a battle they don’t want to fight, refuse the extra hours, and then probably look for another job because this CEO sounds like a nightmare.

              2. EmmaLou*

                DOL can act very quickly. Husband was injured at work (not his fault) and when he went back to work his very shady company said they were going to “cut his pay” for a short time while they “retrained” him (to do a job he’d been doing for many years) which was illegal. He made one call to DOL who confirmed its illegality and they called his work. That very day he got a call from his employers saying they’d “changed their minds” and he’d be restarted at his full wage. Of course from that moment on, they worked to fire him but
                it took years and eventually they did for a rule violation that they had to admit to Unemployment didn’t actually exist. So very glad to be done with that place.

          2. Observer*

            Actually, far less risky. The first time the paycheck doesn’t cover the hour worked you go to payroll / HR and say “You do know that we are legally required to pay for every hour worked, don’t you? And that it is absolutely illegal for me to volunteer to work unpaid hours? When will I see the overage covered?” And, they either get it to you by next payroll, or you call DOL.

    2. H.C.*

      You can try once more with the CEO by sending her the actual rule changes from the Dept of Labor’s site ( https://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/final2016/index.htm ) noting that nowhere does it specify exceptions for small size for for-profits.

      Also – with the large corporation purchase, will your company be folded into the larger corporation operations within the next 3 months or still run independently? If it’s the former, you can also check with your newly assigned HR rep and even if not, you can check with the larger corporation’s HR/compliance departments in general about this too.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        I wish I had any idea how to even get in contact with the new company. We’re being largely kept separate and I am sure the only reason I’m getting my current cost-of-living raise, for the first time in 5 years, in due to the increase in funds after the acquisition.

        Thank you for the link. I will make sure to go armed with it.

    3. Zahra*

      How will payroll process your pay come December? Are they going to pay you overtime? If yes, I’d drop it. CEO is obviously not interested in hearing or learning about it. Maybe the additional OT cost will wake her up. Unless there’s a chance of her asking you not to log your time over 40 hours or firing you (or otherwise negative consequences) when she gets the sticker shock.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        Haha, no, I wish! The CEO is the one who processes overtime. I don’t currently work from a time sheet so I’m paid the exact amount each week no matter what I work.

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          You will need to talk to your boss about how you should be tracking your time in December. Do it in a matter-of-factly way and simply state that you understand that law requires non-exempt employees to track their time, and what form should you fill out?

    4. animaniactoo*

      “Thank you very much for this. I do have another concern I’d like to address with you – I understand you don’t intend to raise me up to new minimum exempt salary, so I’ll become non-exempt when the new law goes into effect. Do you intend to convert me to hourly so that I’ll receive overtime pay for my additional hours, or are you planning to hire an additional person so we can make sure to keep my hours under 40?”

      [bluster bluster bluster]

      “I’ve researched this very thoroughly, our company is not exempt from this because there is no exemption for size unless it’s a non-profit company. Businesses that have only 3 employees are subject to it. Please check for yourself, I’d hate for the company to get into trouble over a misunderstanding about this.”

      2. Anon for this one*

        But also figure out how you’re going to respond to “That’s okay, as long as you don’t file a complaint, no one will ever know.”

        1. Observer*

          Even if I never file a complain, someone else might. Or you might get audited by the IRS, and that tends to have a domino effect. Or someone in the acquiring company might complain about the acquiring company, and we’d get caught in the cross fire.

      3. Jerry Vandesic*

        “… I understand you don’t intend to raise me up to new minimum exempt salary”

        I wouldn’t say this. Too argumentative. Simply say “Given my salary, I’ll be non-exempt when the new law goes into effect.”

      5. Elysian*

        I think even for non-profits, the exemption is based on business revenue and not size. I don’t think any aspect of the FLSA changes its applicability just because you’re small.

    5. Zahra*

      Oh, do check that you are not in one of the professions that are exempt by default (teachers come to mind).

        3. Anon Just In Case*

          Ugh, teachers are criminally underpaid in this country already. What’s the rationale for excluding them from the law? (probably because, given the number of hours teachers work every week, they’d all suddenly start making overtime…)

          1. PeachTea*

            The thought process is that they are a “learned” profession. The law wasn’t written to protect lawyers, doctors, and teachers because presumably, they were not at as high of a risk to be exploited thanks to their skills.

          2. BobcatBrah*

            The rationale is that they’re salaried government employees paid for by local (and federal) taxes. Why on Earth would the Federal government raise their own operating expenses like that? I would imagine there’s also an exemption for military personnel, if they’re even subject to DoL rules in the first place.

          3. NarrowDoorways*

            Become a teacher in Massachusetts! All my teacher friends make damn good money and are well protected by their union.

    6. Natalie*

      At this point, if you don’t get anywhere with your CEO next week, go back to HR. Part of their job is protecting the company from bizarro managers like yours.

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        It’s difficult because oddly, in most cases the CEO functions as HR! She consults with an actual HR company to navigate almost all major issues. This is generally handled very well, as all the issues in the past have been taken in hand quite how Alison’s advice would offer.

        I can only hope that, when faced with my comments, she’ll once again consult with the HR company and proceed appropriately. It’s getting her there that is the trick.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah, so it’s a third party HR firm? That’s a bit different.

          In that case, personally I would go with the above suggestion of just presenting it as a done deal: “since they’re been no discussion of raising my salary to the new exempt threshold or paying overtime, starting December 1st I’ll begin capping my work week at 40 hours.”

          (Also, this is a fairly minor point but it might help with your boss. This isn’t a new law at all. It’s an old law, they just adjusted a number in that law)

        2. Natalie*

          You mentioned you were acquired by a larger company. Do they have their own HR department? If your company is wholly owned by theirs, they should be involved as its their ass(ets) on the line.

          As you don’t have the number, just google them and call through the main line.

    7. Anon13*

      Others have already given great advice, so I won’t rehash what they said, but, just as an aside, regardless of your original offer, they would only be required to pay you overtime for hours worked over 40 each week, not hours worked over 37.5. I actually worked somewhere with a decent number of non-exempt salaried employees that kept our work week at 37.5 hours for that reason. People often put in an extra 15 minutes a few times a week, but rarely enough to get overtime.

  14. intldevt*

    My horrible manager was fired this week! When my manager’s boss told me I had to fight down a smile… :)

    Apparently things have gotten quite sketchy since she was terminated, as she’s tried to contact multiple people within the organization as well as some of our external partners. It was serious enough that the Executive Director called an impromptu staff meeting to say “I know some of you have been contacted, please come and see me if you have concerns.” I was asked to change all of our corporate passwords as well. I have no idea what the content of her messages were (and I know it’s confidential and none of my business), but I’m SO SO SO curious!

      1. Marisol*

        “When my manager’s boss told me I had to fight down a smile… :)”

        Schadenfreude!! I know it well. When my awful coworker got fired, she came to my desk to tell me about it and say goodbye, and I think I my feigned look of concern was oscar-worthy. As soon as she left the building I gleefully emailed a friend who works at a different company (using my personal email account of course) the “good news.” It’s terrible, but satisfying. Of course, the situation with your manager sounds considerably worse and more dramatic.

    3. Waxworm*

      Schadenfreude!

      My office schadenfreude story: “Peter” was a huge jerk to me for the entire year I was on the same team as him. He even went as far one time as to go and change a source report that had been updated months ago, then sent an email to the entire leadership to say Waxwork messed this up, literally minutes after changing the report!He did a lot of other stuff too, such as encouraging all of us to complain as a group, only to be the first to announce “I completely disagree with this. I agree with management” as soon as we sent the group email to management.

      Well the rest of us got huge promotions one-by-one over the next year, and Peter never did! On top of that, he continually tries to connect with me on LinkedIn (I’m in a very senior position now) and I can’t hope but notice he is still in that abysmal dead end job!

  15. EW*

    I need some advice.

    I moved states in January without a job to join my husband before our wedding in April. I felt pressured to find a job quickly and accepted a job at a company that was extremely stressful, caused panic attacks, raised some ethically issues, and just generally made me miserable. After three months, I quit on good terms with my manager. He understood the working environment, and although he was trying to change it, the change was very slow.

    My question is this: since I was only there three months, I have left it off my resume so far. But what happens if it comes up in a background check? I’m even applying for jobs in a different field, so the experience really isn’t relevant. But I don’t want to feel like I’m hiding it. Any advice? I’m being very careful with choosing my next position so I can stay there for at least two years.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Your resume is a marketing tool, not a comprehensive list of every job you’ve ever held. If a hiring manager sees it and asks about it, you can simply explain that you left it off your resume because the experience was not relevant to the position, and that you left due to a bad cultural fit (or whatever). I doubt it will come up at all, though.

      1. EW*

        Thank you. I think I’m just overly concerned about “hiding” it from a future employer. What about the applications that ask for work history? Do I need to include it there since it’s not a resume? The language is not always clear, but most I’ve encountered ask to “list the most recent position first”.

        1. Natalie*

          If you’re asked to provide a complete work history for a background check, go ahead and list it. Don’t worry about it at all – no one expects you to list every job you’ve had on a resume, and your future employer may not even see the form you fill out. They probably use a third party background check service.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, you’re not denying you worked there. You’re just not advertising that you worked there.

      3. Marisol*

        And what sort of background check is it? Unless it’s for the FBI or something where the research is extensive, I can’t imagine anyone would find out unless you tell them–how would they know?

        1. EW*

          This was what I was trying to figure out. I thought if you use a background check company they can sometimes get income information and see the company name that way. I don’t know for sure.

          1. Marisol*

            hmmm. I don’t know but it seems like a finding out where you previously worked would entail some sort of private eye investigation (cost prohibitive I imagine) since the only employment records generated would be the W2 and I9 and they are confidential. I had my background checked for prior arrests/criminal convictions and unbeknownst to me, there was a warrant for an unpaid parking ticket–I took care of that of course, once they asked me about it (very embarrassing), and was subsequently hired. My point being that a criminal record is public, and so not hard to access, unlike a tax record. But really, I cannot speak with any authority. It’s not like you did anything wrong simply by leaving an employer though.

  16. Not-So-Sad Grad*

    After a summer drought, I’ve finally started getting interviews! Alison’s guide was very helpful when thinking of answers to common questions and topics to inquire about with interviewers. It also helps that she has a calm, soothing voice throughout the entirety of the video guide, making the drive to the office far less nerve-wracking.

    I got rejected from two jobs this week but also had two interviews. One of them included lunch with the team I’d work with to assess cultural fit. Since as the hiring process takes a while, though, I’m really starting to regret turning down offers for part-time retail and adjunct jobs because I was interviewing for full-time positions in my field. I hope I’m not still unemployed in a few months, kicking myself for not stocking shelves or teaching a six-week class because I thought some interviews in my field would lead to a full-time job.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry! I understand the feeling about wishing one had taken PT work, but not wanting to be tied up if a FT offer came through. Best of luck!

    2. SeekingBetter*

      Glad to hear the job interviews are picking up for you! I’m sorry to hear the rejections, and I hope you’ll find a job soon despite rejecting jobs that aren’t related to your field. I’ve turned down a couple of non-career related opportunities myself so far and I hope I don’t regret it either. I completely understand waiting out for the full-time positions over the part-time ones.

  17. March*

    This morning I found a job posting I’m qualified for (!) and it breaks down qualifications by mandatory, highly desirable, and nice to have. And items listed under each are actually reasonable (!!). After finding so many ads with frustrating requirements (I mentioned last week ones that wanted 5-7 years for entry level, for example), this is so refreshing to see.

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    Happy Friday! :)

    I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who gave me feedback and advice on my post last week :)
    Things have gotten considerably better the last few weeks. No BEC mode, no dropping the ball on anyone, keeping up with all my emails. Slump’s gone. I took the advice to heart. I wish I wasn’t so slow in processing things, but everyones been an immense help.

    It’s also our first payday reflecting our raises after our perf review in July, so pretty happy about that :)

  19. Tegdirb*

    I’m thinking of applying for a position in another department within my company. What I’m wondering is how to frame this to my current boss. I don’t think he’ll be bothered – especially as he is a transplant from another department within the company – but I just want to make sure it goes smoothly.

    Has anyone else gone through this?

    1. ASJ*

      This is extremely common, so (unless you suspect otherwise, which you say you don’t) I would approach it with the attitude that your boss will be cool with it, sorry to see you go but happy to see you moving on to better pastures. If you have the opportunity, maybe you could bring up that you’ve been thinking of applying to test the waters?

  20. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Four weeks unemployed and things are finally starting to get in motion. I have one confirmed in-person interview next week and am working on scheduling another (with another agency). I started one online class for fun and will start another next week for not-as-much-fun (career-related). A local media non-profit wants me to help judge a film contest. I’ve had a bunch of conversations with recruiters, both local and in NYC (my direct experience is much more applicable in NYC than it is here, and while I don’t plan to move back anytime soon, I’m not ruling out the possibility).

    At first, I was really wary of how people would respond to my story about leaving my job, but they’ve been so much more understanding than I could ever imagine. I was too in-the-weeds at that job, thrown in with very little training and expected to do so many tasks, and I had come from a place where I had a team and was expected to handle higher-level reporting and presentations. I want to get back into that. I’ve had nothing but positive responses.

    So that’s the good stuff. The hard part is figuring out exactly what I want. The agency I’m meeting with next week is small (fewer than 50 employees) and looking to expand its offerings and incorporate the type of work that I’ve done in my career. The agency I’m setting something up with wants to do something similar, but it’s bigger (~150 employees). I have to really, really sit down and figure out what I will need to avoid my last situation, which included: too few people (we worked as independent teams of 4 people, with the person in my role doing everything from project management to people management to execution to reporting), change for the sake of change alone (every three months, my job was different), too many projects at once, and upper management that was never on the same page. During my interviews, I plan to ask about management style and structure, vision for the role, what success looks like, and what they would expect my first 30 days to look like, but I’d love to hear from all my AAM-ers about questions you’d suggest I ask to avoid another massive career fail. (I exaggerate– but basically, it was a bad fit.) What say you fine people?

    1. zora.dee*

      something about how strategic/project planning is done for each year? As in, how many projects would you be working on at once, and how is that decided/when is that revisited? and maybe, how much say do you have in making those plans?

      what are their plans for staffing/growth? Are you going to have enough people on your team to do the work, how are decisions made to add staff if needed?

      And because I have had a bad experience with this in the past: how is reporting done for projects/how is post-project analysis done/lessons learned and incorporated into future planning? (I was somewhere where we just made the same dumb mistakes over and over bc no one would admit that that idea hadn’t worked the last 3 times, and it was easier to just do the same things every year).

      And also anything about collaboration and communication with other departments? Many problems I’ve seen relate to siloing departments too much.

      Just some things off the top of my head, mostly based on things I don’t want to go through again, haha. Good luck!!

  21. H.C.*

    So I’m finally starting my new government job the Monday after Labor Day — yay!

    To follow up from this earlier open thread query (July 1-2 , yep – it’s been a while) about the oddity of going from verbal offer straight to a starting date notice with said-government job, I did put a brake to that unexpectedly fast process and did wound up negotiating my salary, pre-planned days off & a few other things (using quite a few negotiation tips from AAM – thanks!). Thankfully, my hiring manager really went to bat for me on this with government HR and even though it took a while to approve, it eventually did & I’ll make 10K more than their initial offer (& modest bump from my most recent job).

    During this whole time, I’ve given a generous notice period with my former employer so left on really good terms with my supervisor & colleagues — so now just enjoying my “funemployment” until that 1st day. Tina Fey was correct about the bliss of being currently unemployed but already knowing where your next paycheck will come from (paraphrasing from her Bossypants books.)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Federal or State/Local Government?
      Curious about how you got a federal job. I’ve been applying but it seems pretty hopeless.

      1. H.C.*

        Local gov’t – and the whole process took about 9 months (it was really a lot of stop and go, with lulls between submitting application, then sending work samples, then the interviews & finally negotiation/approvals)

        Funny enough, I also have a federal government job application “in process”, quotes because I sent the application in December and I barely got an acknowledgment that my application has been received and will be considered last month (I’ve also gotten a few “reject” emails from federal gov’t – same role but diff departments/locations – and even those took about 2-3 months).

        So yeah, my takeaway for fed job applications is be extremely patient and stay otherwise employed during the process. Good luck!

  22. MonkeyBusiness*

    I would like to ask everyone’s opinion regarding education. I am a US citizen, but due to family circumstances I had to get my degree in a different country. I have a BA in Interantional Economic Relations from the top university in that country. Now I am back on US soil.. Any thought/feelings regarding how this may effect me? So far it hasn’t. But I am wondering if it is perceived as worthless?

    1. Temperance*

      I think it depends on the country and the university. There are some really excellent schools in Canada and the UK, for example, that are well-regarded here.

        1. Gaia*

          I don’t think it would be considered worthless by most. But it may help to get an officially translated copy of transcripts and degree. Most people will likely be unfamiliar with Ukranian universities. But people go to university all over the world. As long as you are able to show your education, I’d think you would have no trouble.

    2. Emac*

      I agree, it depends on the country & university. If you’re really concerned, you could get it evaluated, though that would cost money. CED and WES are the two evaluation companies that most US universities use.

      I can say that if you plan to go to grad school or something like that, it might mean you having to take the TOEFL. Though if you have a high school diploma from the US (or other English speaking country), that might be waived.

    3. LisaLee*

      Unless you’re working in some pretty specific areas (academia or some government work) I don’t think anyone will care beyond noting it as a curiosity.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      In addition to what country and what university, it may also depend on what kinds of jobs you’re trying to get. Some jobs just care you got a bachelor’s and not where from or what in. Others care very much about pedigree.

  23. Anony*

    Hurricane! Or is it a tropical storm again?

    How are you all dealing with the weather?

    (Should I ask to go home early?)

    1. ASJ*

      I’m close enough to work that I can walk. But for me, my moment of “yup, time to go home” is when the busses are pulled off the road. Because around here, they are only pulled when there is some Serious Shit going on outside (usually during a January storm).

      1. Drew*

        I live and work in a hilly area which tends to have flash floods if there are storms more serious than “look at the pleasant little shower that’s blowing over.” Office SOP is that if severe weather is in the area, people who are concerned about their ability to get home should leave. Nothing we do is so critical that it is worth risking your safety.

        (Part of this is because at our old office, the driveway to the street regularly flooded, and we once had to wait out a tornado warning in a leaky building because we literally couldn’t get to the street.)

        Worse than rain, though, is ice; I live in the South and we have no infrastructure to deal with ice on the roads. A couple of times a winter, the all-location email goes out that the office is closed because it’s not worth the risk to anyone.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, here’s the thing: it’s a Friday, it’s a holiday weekend… If things are slow anyway, just leave now. My direct report at my last job was a nervous driver with a 45-minute commute, and I always let her leave if the weather was predicted to be funky.

      It’s just raining here right now and I’m so happy, because my lawn and plants need it. On the other hand, my mother is in Florida and never takes these things seriously, and I don’t want to hear how upset she is because it’s raining too hard for her to get a manicure.

      1. animaniactoo*

        I’ve been seeing meme postings all week from the Florida relatives about how their hurricane preparations are so much more laidback than the rest of the country… to sum up “Don’t panic or do a single thing different until it actually starts to rain REALLY HARD”.

        1. BobcatBrah*

          I’ve had enough food and water for a month tucked away in a closet since April. It’s been 10 years since they’ve had a hurricane down here (and we didn’t get a drop of rain in Miami), but I went 3 weeks with no power or drinkable tap water after Hurricane Ike hit Houston, and it would have been a really terrible 3 weeks if I hadn’t prepared. These Floridians can do what they want, but I’m not going to play Mad Max at the grocery store with them the day before a storm hits.

    3. Ama*

      I’m in a place that could potentially be in the path of the storm over the weekend and my office is located in the first area that gets evacuated if there’s a real danger (last time we had a bad hurricane, no one could get into the office for a week), so even though it looks like it won’t be that bad by the time it gets here I’m going to take my work laptop home. I’m heading into my busiest and most time sensitive project so I will enjoy my three day weekend much more if I don’t have to panic that I might be stranded without the tools I need.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Teleworking. Although the worst seems to have passed us (coastal South Carolina). I’m concerned about after-storm flooding, though, especially after last October’s deluge. But hey, we have inflatable boats in the garage.

    5. JOTeepe*

      If there isn’t a major coverage issue in your role/your office, I say why not? I live in the northeast, and we frequently deal with inclement weather. Like ASJ, I also walk to work, so I have no problem trudging through the snow, but under no circumstances will I deal with ice storms. That’s my line. However when I had staff (took a new role recently, a “high level individual contributor” – I hate that phrase, it’s so pretentious, but it is descriptive), if they commuted from any kind of distance I *insisted* that they not put their lives in danger over driving in inclement weather.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I am totally stealing “high level individual contributor” :) I am at the bottom of the report chain, and fine with that, but still have a reasonably high level of responsibility…

  24. Callietwo*

    So, next week I’m interviewing for an internal Senior teapot maker trainer and though I feel like I’ve done what I can for the most part: Taking the job description line by line, elevator speech ready and answers to many of the general questions typically asked so that’s all good.

    But I’m nervous about the wacky behavioral questions that might be asked and then the “weakness” question. I cannot come up with a way to discuss what I’d consider my biggest weakness. I’m not saying I don’t have any, I just don’t know what to actually say.

    I am easily distracted and can go off tangent. How could I talk about that? Or, that being organized does not come natural to me but that using the tools that are available, such as outlook calendars, cell phone reminders, color coding, pomodoro technique, bullet journeling etc, I’ve have excelled at my job. People actually think that I’m highly organized! So, would that no longer be considered one? I work at it every day to stay on top of things!

    Any advice would be appreciated. I have been doing many of the tasks on that job description already but it would be nice to be doing those in an official capacity, along with receiving the compensation that comes along with it! Thanks!

    1. R.*

      I think the key with the biggest weakness question (which yes, dumb question and hopefully they won’t ask it) is to turn it into a story about how you’ve improved. Something like “In the past, I’ve struggled a bit with being easily distracted. I was so eager to get it all done that I would jump to a new task before I’d finished the first one. It’s something I’ve really worked on, and with the help of tools like color coding and calendars, I’ve gotten a lot better lately! In fact, my boss recently complimented me on my organization skills, which was great to hear.”

      1. Callietwo*

        That’s excellent, thank you! I am taking this weekend to practice, practice, practice so that it sounds natural without sounding rehearsed. Heh.

    2. migrant worker*

      I am also terribly disorganised but everyone at work thinks I’m detail-oriented and organised also due to tools and techniques taught to me by others. Though I don’t know pomodoro and bullet journalling – I will check this out!

      On biggest weakness – I think ok to say that you don’t have a natural inclination to organisation but having recognised it you’ve sought out tools that support you and work on it every day.

      Also in competency based questions (‘describe a time when…’), please don’t forget to give the outcome. :) I have sat through so many of these and it’s painful to hear this long story about this time when… and then I have no idea how it ended. Good luck!

      1. zora.dee*

        “On biggest weakness – I think ok to say that you don’t have a natural inclination to organisation but having recognised it you’ve sought out tools that support you and work on it every day.”

        Yes, this^^^
        That is exactly what they want you to do, show how you recognize something that has caused you problems, and the steps you have taken to improve.

        And I like how R phrases it above, not framing it as a positive exactly, but explaining why you have that problem, not just “I’m disorganized” that sounds bad, but something like: “I am easily distracted because I often see lots of different directions and tangents that can go off of the main thing I am working on. I have learned how to compensate with organizational tools” and talk a little bit specifically about how you like to organize yourself to stay on task. Practice describing some of the specifics but in about 2-3 sentences.

        2. Jaydee*

          Here to second this. You don’t just want to identify a weakness and then stop. All you’ve done then is give them a potential reason not to hire you. What employers are looking for is self-awareness and the ability to overcome or work around your weaknesses. So the organization example is great.

      2. Callietwo*

        I just love the bullet journal but it can become a time-suck if you’re not careful! I’ve learned that I’m not all that artistic but some of the bullet journals you see online are actual pieces of art.

        Used with the pomodoro technique, it has really helped me stay on task. Copied from Wikipedia:
        ~~There are six stages in the technique:
        Decide on the task to be done.
        Set the pomodoro timer (traditionally to 25 minutes). (I use my cell phone timer)
        Work on the task until the timer rings. If a distraction pops into your head, write it down, but immediately get back on task. (This is where the bullet journal comes into play)
        After the timer rings, put a checkmark on a piece of paper.
        If you have fewer than four checkmarks, take a short break (3–5 minutes), then go to step 1.
        Else (i.e. after four pomodoros) take a longer break (15–30 minutes), reset your checkmark count to zero, then go to step 1.~~

        As for the ending of a “tell me about a time”.. oh, I will need to keep myself on track there.. I tend to start a story and then go into the ‘uhh, why was I telling you this story?” so I can easily see myself falling into that trap. Ooofh.. I hope I don’t screw this up!

        1. zora.dee*

          As for the ending of a “tell me about a time”.. oh, I will need to keep myself on track there.. I tend to start a story and then go into the ‘uhh, why was I telling you this story?” so I can easily see myself falling into that trap. Ooofh.. I hope I don’t screw this up!

          Ha, I TOTALLY know what you mean, I have this problem, too. ;o) But don’t get all “I hope I don’t screw this up!”, that will get in your head!!! Instead, practice your responses and stories ahead of time. Some people like to write them out first, or create an outline. I have a harder time writing than talking so that doesn’t work for me. But still, practice getting to the point quickly. Another way to do it is to state the point you are making first, and then back up and explain the story. “My best example is when I worked with the team to write out the teapot plan as a checklist to help identify where the problems were. So, what had happened was X, and Y, Z problems were happening. I started by…” Etc.

          You can do it, I believe in you!! ;o)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe the thing to do there is to say the punchline first. “I found I was easily distracted so I collected up organizational tools. I have been using X, Y and Z.” Then you can say, “What happened initially was I found that if the phone rang, I would get so immersed in that call that I would forget my current task and inadvertently start another task once I was done with the call. I had not completed the task I was on when the phone rang.”

          I have been able to ask myself, “Is telling this story actually answering a question or is it just an interesting-to-me side comment?”

          1. zora.dee*

            Ha, I am irrationally excited that I thought of the same advice as Not So NewReader, you are so wise!! ;o)

        3. migrant worker*

          I just sat in another competency based interview where we got long interesting stories with no conclusion… want to stress again making sure you give the punchline. :)

          And thanks for pomodoro/journaling tip! I am super easily distracted so this is a great way to build in structure. :)

          thanks!

  25. SJ*

    My last day at this job is next Friday (I start my new job on the 12th) and I am so itching to get out. I’ve been trying to wrap up loose ends but no one has sent me any information I need to do so, and I’m finding it reeeeeally hard to care. I know I’ll get bombarded with stuff on Thursday, since “last minute” is pretty much the motto around here.

    1. Drew*

      Idea: can you send out an email letting people know that you’re planning to leave early on Friday, so please get as much to you early in the week as possible? And then if you need to stay the whole day, you can, but you’ve already set the expectation that you’re trying to get out the door so if someone really hits you with a last-minute problem, you’ve covered yourself if you can’t quite get to it.

    2. OhBehave*

      What Drew said! They need a reminder that you are going to be GONE!
      Is there any way to predict what Thursday’s urgent needs will be? That may help you get ahead of the game. It’s crazy that they like to wait until the last minute.
      Congrats on the new job ;)

  26. Kaitlyn*

    I was fortunate enough to have 2 interviews this past week. But now I’m going in to a long weekend with all this anticipation to hear back looming over my head. Oh the uncertainty!

  27. C Average*

    I have a new job! I just started this last week, and I think I am going to love it.

    I’m working part-time at a giant independent fabric store in my area. It’s a huge warehouse full of all kinds of wonderful stuff: silks and velvets, fake furs and Gore-Tex, upholstery fabrics and cotton prints of absolutely everything you can possibly imagine, bits and bobs and gadgets.

    I’ve been shopping there for years for materials for various projects, so when I saw the “help wanted” sign on the door, I thought, “Wait, I could get PAID to spend time here? Yes, please.” I love the product line and have always loved the customer service vibe there, too: helpful and knowledgeable, but never hover-y.

    I will be primarily in the notions department, which means that when strangers ask me what I do, I can tell them I’m a purveyor of notions.

    I’ll continue to work through the revisions of my novel and do some freelance writing and possibly editing as well.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Congrats on new job! Best of luck with transition.
      I guess you can do what you can do on Thursday/Friday, then be done. That sounds like their problem, not yours, since they had a heads’ up…

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I worked at a fabric store when I was a teenager, 15 years ago, and I just had to donate the mountain of fabric I purchased with my employee discount. So have a closet ready for all that fabric! :) And good luck!

    5. Anonymous Coward*

      Purveyor of Notions sounds so interesting! I had a brief time when I was a Financial Crimes Professional… which sounded amusingly like the Mafia.

    6. Eden*

      Congratulations! This is how I started working at my last job – which I left 13 years later :-) Hope you love it, sounds like a great place with good management also, I think customer service usually reflects that.

    7. ZSD*

      Sounds awesome. Congratulations!
      Relevant to the education vs. knowledge discussion above, my brother-the-Rhodes-scholar once made fun of a sewing store that advertised “notions” in its window. How funny! They call them notions! Yes, as does the rest of the world, Brother.

    8. PackersFan*

      Hooray! Just don’t bring your Wheaties bowl until you know you can trust everyone not to use it….

    11. Hlyssande*

      Is this the one in the land of so many lakes that also opened a smaller location last year? :) :) :)

      If so, I am jealous! I interviewed there years ago and didn’t get it.

      (also, I recently got some linen knit there that’s to die for)

  28. NotAngryBlackWoman*

    RANT. I just started a new managerial role in my company. I am trying not to be perceived as the “angry black woman”, but there is a person in my department (who is not my direct supervisor) who tries to dump activities and projects on me – or worst…my staff! I want to be assertive and tell her to stop, but I am also reluctant because I do not want to be “the angry black woman.”

    Also, when I told her my staff would not be providing a service for her, she went to my supervisor BEHIND CLOSED DOORS and complained about it. Luckily, my supervisor backed me up and told her that I was right.

    How does my fellow marginalized community deal with not trying to be a “stereotype” in the work place?

    1. animaniactoo*

      By staying completely calm as you give pre-rehearsed lines, and letting it be *okay* for her to go to your supervisor, and let your supervisor back you up. In fact, that needs to be one of your pre-rehearsed lines. If the first 2 attempts at rejecting the work don’t take, the 3rd should be: “This is not how projects are supposed to be handed off/not something my department does. Please feel free to take it up with [Supervisor] if this is a problem.”

      In the meantime, being assertive and telling her to stop “Jane, there seems to be a misunderstanding about what my department is here for. Our work comes from [Supervisor]. If you have something you want us to work on, please arrange it with her.”

      You stress being calm and civil and *firm*, even if she’s getting aggravated with you. Not because you’re trying to avoid “angry black woman” stereotype, but because you can’t control her or how she reacts, and beyond the basics you actually don’t even want to try. Because then it makes you more responsible for how she responds than she is, and you want to leave that responsibility firmly where it belongs. What you control here is your own behavior, in not reacting in a way that would be inappropriate no matter what your gender or color are (angry). So – you can be clear and assertive at the same time. The primary difference between assertive and angry is the tone of voice and the words used. But the message is the same. “No, we won’t do that for you.” or “Please bring that to [Supervisor] for approval” or “We can have that done next week.” “Yes, I understand, but no we won’t be working on that unless [Supervisor] approves.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve felt that (not exactly but with a different stereotype), and it’s annoying, but you may just have to find a way to act that seems appropriate to you for the situation, and how other people read it be damned.

    3. Menacia*

      Why not schedule a meeting with the person who tries to dump activities and projects on you and your staff to come up with a solution? Right now is the time to create an environment of understanding if these activities and projects are not the responsibility of your team. I don’t think being calm but assertive will perceive you as being anything other than what you are, a manager. Don’t bring stereotypes into this at all, it’s not warranted and could cause more problems than necessary.

      1. Observer*

        There is no solution, other than for OtherManager to stop trying to assign work to people she doesn’t have the authority over. What exactly would a meeting do? NABW already explained this, essentially, which lead to a complaint to her supervisor.

        In short there is nothing to “negotiate” here.

    5. migrant worker*

      to be fair, the ‘angry black woman’ stereotype is often not about being angry at all. so helpful to be calm and not get angry, but sometimes being assertive itself can be perceived as angry.

      It sounds like this is a situation in which maybe letting your supervisor handle it could be beneficial? Worth having that convo and asking her to take care of it? It depends on the level of that other person but if they are higher than you, this could be the politically expedient solution.

      As for how to deal with the stereotype issue – as a person of colour myself, I try to stick up for my colleagues when they get put in that bucket. Luckily I currently work somewhere where we’re too diverse for the stereotyping to take hold in a way that marginalises anyone.

      Good luck!

    6. Chriama*

      Ugh. I think you do it by being pleasant and friendly to people who are pleasant and friendly, and calmly assertive to people who aren’t. I wouldn’t change all my behaviour to deal with one unreasonable person. Also, maybe watch how other people deal with this person and bring it up with your boss proactively if you’re concerned. “Hey boss, this is how I’ve been dealing with Obnoxious Ophelia. I know she complained to you directly in the past, and I just wanted your confirmation that you’re fine with how I’m handling things or if you’d like me to do anything differently?”

      Also, as a black woman myself, I recently made a pact that I would never feel embarrassed or out of place because of my race or gender. I’m not the best at controlling my emotions, but every time I have a thought like that I remember my vow and I pull my shoulders back and stand up taller. I can’t control how people choose to perceive me, but I can choose how I perceive myself. I hope that comes across as self-empowering and not judgemental, it’s just something that was a bit of a revelation to me so I thought I’d share.

      1. Honeybee*

        Yeah, I also made the commitment to myself to be unapologetically black, *especially* in spaces when I’m the only one (and I very, very, very often am – I work in video games at a technology company). I never want people to be able to…almost ignore the fact of my race and gender, if you will.

        Interestingly, it’s usually worked out pretty positively, in that I think my coworkers notice and comment on things that maybe they wouldn’t otherwise. For example, I was having a conversation with a colleague from a product team I’d just met in front of a senior coworker on my team. The colleague was pretty much grilling me on my video game history and knowledge in a way to ‘establish’ my ‘cred’ as a gamer, which is pretty important to a lot of people in our field for better or for worse (eyeroll). At this point, I’m really used to it because as a black woman, I never read “gamer” to people just by looking; people are constantly asking me if I play and seem pretty surprised when they find out that not only do I but I’ve been playing my entire life.

        Later, the senior coworker commented on how sexist the conversation was from his perspective and how eye-opening it was for him to watch it unfold; he’d always HEARD that women had to deal with those kinds of challenges in the industry but to SEE it happen in front of him was something different. His mind was blown when I told him it happened to me so often I don’t even really bat an eye when it happens anymore.

    7. zora.dee*

      UGH! I don’t have any advice, but I just wanted to say I’m sorry you have to deal with cr*p like this in the workplace in the 21st Century! It’s ridiculous and it shouldn’t be happening. I can’t even imagine how hard it is to deal with stereotypes like that.

      I come off as “intense” to some people, and my last boss didn’t like my “tone” even when I was asking her questions, so I’ve come to terms with the fact that some people just aren’t going to like me and there’s only so much I can do. But I can’t imagine having to add so many other dimensions of prejudice on top of that. Again, I’m just sorry that our society sucks.

    8. J*

      Honestly, I just do it anyway. IMO, there are times when it’s legitimate to get angry about something. I mean, I’m not Hulk-smashing everything in sight, but when a department/co-worker/situation goes far right of where it should have been, I get upset. Being a black woman doesn’t mean I don’t get to feel a certain range of emotions in the workplace.

      I’m fortunate that I have worked with supervisors who will often back me up in those situations. I’m glad yours did as well.

      2. Christopher Tracy*

        Same here, J. I’m not going to act like a robot at a place where I spend most of my day out of fear of being perceived a certain way. If someone’s out of line, they get put back in it.

    9. Mazzy*

      Before you get to the point of asking that question I think its worth evaluating whether the work actually does belong in your department. Though I am complaining about my job up above, one area I was successful was absorbing work from other departments. I thought some of it was BS in the beginning because it looked like they were giving us secretarial or data entry work – which they were. Then I realized the information behind the paperwork was all wrong and there were all sorts of other problems and lost money being caused that we uncovered by taking over the paperwork. It took a few months to see why it was valuable to take over the work.

      1. Honeybee*

        Sometimes even not-angry-but-not-a-doormat is perceived as “angry” coming from black bodies. There’s a lot of research showing that the same exact statements and body language is perceived as way more aggressive and hostile coming from black people than from white people and people of other races.

    11. Honeybee*

      I’ve always countered the angry black woman stereotype (I’m also a black woman) by being perky and positive in pretty much every other area until I *need* to be assertive and shut things down. My personality is already mostly like this, but generally I feel like I have to carefully pick and choose my battles even when I do see something wrong to avoid being perceived as overly negative, angry, critical, etc. as women – especially women of color – often are. I know that it’s worked because I’ve gotten multiple comments from different coworkers that I’m consistently positive and pleasant and “when Honeybee complains about something, we know it’s a big deal because she never complains!” But I do sometimes wonder about the tactic.

      The other thing is pretty much what animaniactoo said – when I need to give feedback that’s not quite positive, I rehearse my lines over and over until I can deliver them in a calm way, and I try to deliver them in an emotionless, very matter-of-fact tone. (I’ve gotten comments on this, too.) Again, sometimes I wonder about this – I do hate working in a world where any expression of my emotions has the heightened chance of being stereotyped because I’m a woman AND because I’m black, and I wonder whether my actions and choices only perpetuate that to a certain degree. But fighting that fight every time I need to ask for something sounds interminably exhausting, and you gotta live in the world you’re in, right?

  29. so anon*

    Question for the masses – I can’t tell if this way of thinking is wrong or not.

    I work for a university that offers a co-op program (for those unfamiliar with that, it’s a program that gives students in certain faculties the opportunity to work with a department/office on campus for one term. Full time. They’re also paid for this, but they do get graded. It’s to give them experience.) For the past 2 terms, my office had a co-op student but I wasn’t their supervisor. I did, however, work closely with this co-op student, maybe even closer than her supervisor (who is my coworker).

    The student’s term finished, and she had her final assessment with her supervisor. The supervisor fills out a form grading the student (enthusiasm, promptness, did they ask for work, were they punctual, etc and there is a final ‘mark’ the supervisor gives) and that has a lot of input on the student’s final grade. Well, the student came to me afterwards upset because her supervisor ranked her as a B-. According to the supervisor (who seemed to think this was a really good mark??), anything above a B/B- means that the student came to the office and didn’t have to be taught anything, that the student could just be put to work right away. The supervisor was told that by the head of the co-op program.

    I just… this boggles me? The co-op program is, to me, kinda like an intern program. The students (most of whom have never worked in an office before) come here with the expectation that we’ll teach them everything they need to know about an office/what we do. Right? Shouldn’t they be graded on how well they retain information, how enthusiastic they are, etc…? Or am I way off base?

    I told the student that she should talk to the head of the co-op program and that, if me writing an email or filling out a form might better sway the student’s grade (or the head of the Co-Op programs’ opinion, because this could affect the student’s future chances of another co-op term), I’d be willing to do that. I didn’t feel that a B- was a fair reflection of how much effort she put in and how much she actually did over the eight month period. But then after our conversation, I wondered if maybe I overstepped and I’m in the wrong….

    Advice?

    1. MonkeyBusiness*

      Oh my.. this “old school” mentality.
      Personally, I am absolutely against it. What can be done about it?

    2. Zahra*

      Did the student speak with her supervisor and tell her the implications of that grade? Can you, on your end, get more information as to what the grades mean when the co-op program decides to place the student for another co-op term? Maybe a B- isn’t as bad as she thinks. Talking to a contact person in charge of the co-op program is a good idea. She can suss out whether she is overreacting or if she’s worrying for a good reason.

      Did you speak with her supervisor/your coworker? Would you be able/willing to write the bulk of the assessment or collaborate with her on writing it and deciding the grade?

      If you haven’t spoken to her, I’d approach it on a “I’ve realized that I worked very closely with the last 2 interns and that my appreciation of their work may not be the same as yours. Would you be open to me giving you input, or collaborating in any way to writing their assessment?” If she accepts, try to get a 1-pager with what each grade should mean. A+ means student didn’t have to be taught anything and was a stellar intern, B- means student still needs to learn more about workplace professionalism but was overall a good but not stellar intern, D means student was a disaster, that kind of thing. Get a new one every year or two, just in case the grading signification changes.

      Adjust my script depending on whether she is aware of the student’s dissatisfaction or not.

    3. JustAnotherLibrarian*

      Wow, I am surprised anyone would expect a student assistant to know anything when they come on the job and I’ve supervised a lot of student assistants. I’m sorry your student didn’t get the grade you think she deserved. As it happens, I am strongly opposed to grading interns, but that’s a whole different issue.

      As for what you want to do about it, it is more complex, because you don’t want to upset your coworker or the head of the program. Have you spoken to your co-worker casually about it? Maybe something like, “Student came to me and mentioned her grade and I really think she showed more skill in () and () than perhaps you noticed, because you were so busy with () and (). Would you mind if I wrote to Supervisor of the Program and offered my thoughts on her work on () and () which I worked with her on?”

      Or you might try, “I know the guidelines say () and (), but if she stays as at B than she won’t be eligible for () and () and I really think she did an outstanding job in () and (), would I be stepping on your toes if I emailed the Supervisor and mentioned what I saw on project () and ()?”

      The trick here is to not undermine the person who was her supervisor, because that wasn’t you. And there may have been things you never saw or standards you weren’t aware of. And then tell the student that sometimes life sucks and let it go, because you might not have much you can do. After all, you don’t run the program.

    4. Yup*

      Oh dear. Speaking from a faculty perspective, where grade issues happen all the time, I would strongly advise against weighing in on the student’s grade. I absolutely see that you’re trying to do the right thing, and it’s really kind of you to take this on.

      But I see two thorny issues: 1) it’s *extremely* common for students today to complain about their grade on often spurious grounds (which doesn’t sound true here, but matters for context), and triangulating on that issue – coming to you about a grade someone else gave – is especially problematic. Which is to say – I’m sure the head of the co-op program has dealt with these issues before, and it’s best to refer the problem to them.

      2) Getting involved puts you in a tenuous position. Granted, you also worked with intern. But making the student promises of intervening on the grade, I’m afraid, will not go down well and work against you. That’s because no one likes to have their judgment undercut (coworker), but also because the student should be talking to her nominal supervisor and program head, not you.

      I totally get that your coworker’s assessment may be off, but the best you can do is re-direct student to coworker and maybe dept head (but that’s student’s decision). If it comes to that, you could also speak to your coworker to mention the issue, as mentioned above. As a last resort / if needed, send a note to dept head mentioning that your assessment diverges from coworker’s. But I’d urge you NOT to directly influence the grade, especially without talking to the requisite people first.

  30. Fleur*

    Does anyone have suggestions on how and when to ask about work life balance during an interview without coming across as lazy? Long story short, my current job is pretty bad for that, but I put up with the 60-80 hour work weeks because it used to just be around crunch time/deadlines every few months. But now I’ve basically been told to cancel all my weekend plans going forward well into April/May next year, and I desperately want out.

    The caveat being of course, I don’t want to leap out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    How do I explain that while I am okay with a certain amount of overtime, a 7-day work week is a dealbreaker? In my dream scenario, I find a reasonable job at a 40-hour work week…

    1. JustAnotherLibrarian*

      I think something like, “Can you tell me a little about overtime expectations?” wouldn’t be out of line. Or maybe… “Are there busier times when I would be expected to work on evenings or weekends?”

      After all, a lot of people want to know if they are going to be putting in 60-hour weeks.

    2. Joseph*

      In this case, I think you can resolve this naturally while explaining why you’re looking around. You explain that you’re working 80 hour weeks without end, including no weekends until mid-next year – you’ve done it before during crunch times and been fine, but in normal times, you appreciate more of a work/life balance.
      That sends the message, but in a way that will get most people going “wow, current company is ridiculous” rather than “Fleur is lazy”.

    3. neverjaunty*

      I think you can phrase it as wanting a workplace with good staffing and workflow management – a company that’s always in ‘crunch time’ is not well-managed.

    4. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I often ask this as part of the “how would you describe the culture of the company and of the department/team?” question I ask. As they get into that, I ask follow ups and usually get into the work/life balance question there by asking about busy seasons, etc.

    5. TheCupcakeCounter*

      An easy opening is when they ask “why do you want to leave you current position”? At that point you mention a skewed work/life balance and that you would like to get closer to 40-50 hours (very reasonable) from the 60-80, 7 days/week that you are currently working. A good company will not look at you as lazy but as someone who doesn’t want to burn out. (also avoid the “they are a bunch of money hungry dickybirds” explanation when asked why you are working so much).
      If that doesn’t come up you can ask about work/life balance and explain your current situation a bit (again not too much detail). If you like their answer but feel a bit weird about asking it follow up with “that sounds much more manageable – I know that OT is a fact of most jobs and I am fine putting in the hours when needed but I don’t feel I am doing my best consistently working more than X hours/week.

      For what its worth I was in nearly the exact same position almost 4 years ago and the places that don’t respond well to this question are not places you want to work. At my job now I saw their faces when I mentioned my schedule and knew that this place was going to be very different. I have worked overtime 4 times in 4 years and 2 of those time were at year end when a coworker was out on emergency maternity leave. They bought me lunch as a thank you/I’m sorry. Still have never worked more than 45 hours a week at this job and I am paid 20% more than at LifeSuckingJob.

    6. DoDah*

      I find that the following questions are useful:
      -How do you manage projects? (If it’s all ad hoc you are going to have to work crazy hours)
      -Do you use a formal project management process/tool?
      -If not, why?
      -How do you prioritize projects? (This is more of a “feel” question–but your should be able to tell if they are BSing you)
      -How do you manage clients? (Assuming that clients drive the crunch/deadlines)
      -Have you ever fired a client? (Same assumption as above–looking to see if they will manage unreasonableness from clients)

      I wish you much luck! I wish I had done a better job sussing out the disaster that is my present employer. Essentially EVERYTHING is an emergency.

    7. Honeybee*

      I just straight asked about it when given the opportunity to ask questions (“What is your work-life balance like on the team?” with more detailed questions if necessary), but without qualifying it with anything about my personal expectations or experiences. My experience is that people usually expect that kind of question, and you don’t need to explain why you’re asking it. And quite frankly, if they think asking a question about work-life balance implies that you’re lazy, that might actually tell you volumes about their opinion of trying to have a personal life at all.

      They want you to work ALL weekends from now until May?

  31. Another question from your truly*

    Thinking about going to grad school abroad… (American, mainly considering the UK, but considering other locations as well)… Most of the programs I am considering are 1 year programs, so hopefully they won’t have a major impact on my life. The tuition seems to be very comparable to what is in-state US tuition, but I am concerned about cost of living.

    Any advice on…
    1. Managing Cost of Living
    2. Getting Scholarships/ Funding for Graduate Programs (I could probably pay out of pocket without loans, but it would be my entire life savings)
    3. Job searching after a 1 year program is finished
    4. Managing Homesickness or Culture Shock
    5. Most American-friendly locations for graduate school
    6. Moving
    7. Other things I haven’t considered?

    1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

      Hi there,

      I did a one-year master’s in the UK which was really helpful for me. It was a great program. I’m mostly going to answer for the UK.

      1. It depends on where you live in the UK. London, Oxford, and Cambridge are very very very expensive, Manchester is expensive, elsewhere is pricy. Generally the UK is pricier than the United States, and there are a lot of reasons for that. If your program gets you to join the NHS though, then your healthcare is free.
      2. Scholarships depend. Some US programs can fund you, and there are some UK programs, but generally expect to pay out of pocket. Since many master’s are one year in the UK, generally your loan liability might be lower. I had a tiny partial scholarship aimed at folks from my other country of citizenship.
      3. I started job searching close to my program end in the UK. I work in government, so it was a lot of online applications, and people were impressed with the master’s and my performance in it. I actually scored my current job with Skype interviews, and got a period of time to return to the US and get settled. But generally expect to get your job only after you come back. Employers were quite impressed with “getting a master’s abroad” in my experience.
      4. Culture shock is a big thing, even in the UK. People talk differently, act differently, and there’s a whole different code of emotions. One thing that really helped me was to write it all down in a diary. The UK is different from the US or the other country where I have lived (being a bit cagey since not many folks working in my field from said country here in the US), and the US and the Homeland are closer in culture than either to the UK.
      Homesickness is made easier with electronic communications. I Skyped with my mom three times a week.
      5. The UK is pretty American-friendly, and so is Canada. Generally speaking most places should be OK as long as you’re not an Ugly American.
      6. Moving depends on how long the program is and how much stuff you had. I brought three suitcases to the UK and came back with six, two filled with books.
      7. If you are LGBT keep in mind that the UK is significantly more homophobic/transphobic on an everyday level than most liberal areas of the US.

      1. Another question from your truly*

        So helpful. Thank you so much!

        It’s good to know that going to grad school abroad was a plus for most employers! I’m so nervous about it, but I really regret not doing Study Abroad in undergrad and almost 10 years later, I recognize that this is something that won’t just go away. I’m terrified (in a good way), but I think it is finally time.

        1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

          It totally is! And actually, this makes me think of something else: programs in the UK have a weird relationship with “mature students.” It’s much more normal in the UK to go from undergrad to grad, but that also means they really like students with some “real world experience” under their belts.

          1. Another question from your truly*

            Fascinating! I did notice one of the programs I was looking into over there asked for no more than 3 years of work experience (it didn’t seem like it was a hard and fast rule, but I thought it was strange), but there is no way I would have chosen the programs that I am looking at if it wasn’t for that work experience.

      2. mander*

        Really, on number 7? Granted I’m not LGBT but I thought it was a heck of a lot more accepting when I moved to the northeast of the UK from Colorado. There are plenty of very popular and openly gay TV personalities, for instance, as well as reasonably prominent politicians.

        1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

          Interesting. I think a lot of the lad culture can make the UK kinda nervewracking in a lot of ways, especially if you’re coming like me from the Northeast US.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Okay, I only did 6 months but I’ll try! I was located in Florence, Italy.

      1-3. Not much to offer :(
      I spent most of my savings to make it happen (couldn’t legally work while I was there). I was doing an unpaid internship through my US university, so they were able to help with scholarships/grants, and I had 5 months of school at the US university left after, so I was able to apply to jobs like you normally would.

      4. Technology is a wonderful thing! You don’t necessarily need an international phone plan… You can make calls on Facebook messenger now, Skype is a thing, messaging on iPhones is separate from texting. I also wrote in a blog every couple weeks with pictures and summaries of what I was up to, so “everyone” could be up-to-date even if I didn’t get a lot of time to talk with them.
      5. As long as you’re being a decent person, you shouldn’t have to worry too much about this… If you don’t do the UK, I would suggest going somewhere that speaks languages you know, or uses a lot of English. If you’re going to a university that has all or most classes in English, it’s probably a pretty “English-friendly” area. If you can, try to take a class or two in the local language anyways.
      6. If possible, try to find a fully furnished apartment. Your school should have some suggestions for you, especially if they get a lot of international students. It might cost more for rent, but (at least for me) it was way less than bringing more than a suitcase with me or buying everything there.

      7. Don’t be afraid to jump right in! Get out, explore, get involved. You have a lot less time to feel homesick if you’re doing cool things, making friends, having “activities.” Volunteering is a cool thing. Traveling is also a cool thing if you have a chance – and can be fairly cheap. One company that I liked for cheap travel, cool attractions, and meeting people was Bus2Alps.

      1. Another question from your truly*

        Great advice! Managing the costs of living are making me nervous, but I think it will be worth it. Thank you so much!

    3. migrant worker*

      I’m American and work abroad currently, but also spent a semester studying abroad in college.

      1. Ramen. :D More seriously, some countries are much cheaper than others. It kind of depends on where you end up. But worth checking into visa options that allow you to work part-time…
      2. If there are programmes you are specifically interested in, worth seeing if there is a professor doing research in that area and looking for a grant. Also worth asking the school directly what are the options.
      3. I think the same if did the programme in the US? Work the connections of your fellow classmates and faculty. Attend seminars, and other events, and network. Talk to Career Services. Depending on the field, you might need to look into internship programmes too.
      4. Read up a lot before you go. Otherwise, this is super dependent on where you end up… An English speaking country will be a lot easier to adjust to than one where you might need to converse daily in a different language… Also, skype, facetime, whatsapp, etc, are your friends. Also also, if you are a Democrat, Democrats Abroad is a great community. I don’t think there’s a version for other parties though…
      5. This is a tough one. I generally try to avoid Americans. :D
      6. Pack light. Stick everything you want to take in a room, and then cut it in half. Seek out the local version of Craigslist when you land – often it’s a group on Facebook. You’ll get lots of things you need at super cheap prices or free, from people who are leaving.
      7. Have fun and enjoy the adventure? :)

    4. Emac*

      I don’t know what other countries you’ve considered or what field you’re in, but there are English language grad programs in Germany and some Scandinavian countries that are tuition-free (even for international students). You still have to pay living costs, of course, and for many visas you’d have to show that you have enough cash in the bank to support yourself for a year/however long the program is.

    5. That girl*

      I did this, but it was over 10 years ago.
      Money: I worked in between the Bachelor’s and Master’s, and lived off a combination of loans and savings. (This is biting me in the bum now.)

      Job Searching: I had zilch luck with this., but in retrospect, I think doing what other commenters suggest would have helped. I also have an obscure degree, but if you start early, hopefully, you’ll land in a good place.

      My instructors did not pretend to care about our potential for employment. They were clear that they were just there to teach us now. I never picked up on whether this was cultural or just a personality thing.

      COL/Budgeting: I mostly bought store brand foods, and brought my own linens and toiletries. I pretty much went vegan, which was much cheaper than my omnivorous neighbors’ bills.

      Homesickness: I was very homesick. My cohort interacted with me as a colleague, not a trusted friend. This was very different than my undergrad experience. I missed some American holidays. I had a very large phone budget, and made traditional meals for the holidays. I also went home for Xmas.

      Locations: It really depends on what you are studying. My opinion is to go there with intention. If you are packing your life up for a year, find the best instructors in your field. I didn’t go for the UK-ness of it, I went for the program, and honestly didn’t have all that much time to do much of anything else.

      Moving: I lived in the second-best graduate housing. I was able to pay in advance for the year. I was with other MA students. I was in a relatively secure building. My floor mates had similar temperments and commitment to their studies.

      Other: I was very surprised with the accents. I had extreme difficulty with Northern/Scottish-type accents until about 2 weeks in, and even by the end of it, some were still too thick to understand. Not a huge deal, but disorienting.

      It rains. A lot. I packed a mini umbrella that lived in my school bag.

  32. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

    I am sure this has been discussed before, but what are everyone’s thoughts on blocking websites at work? This is based on a debate my friends and I have been having.

    I am against it. If an employee isn’t doing their job, it isn’t because of facebook (even if that is where they spend all their time). That employee needs to be addressed – more than likely they will find other ways to waste time once facebook is taken away.

    As long your employees are doing their jobs and getting their work done timely, why not let them give their brain a break for 5 minutes to read the news on Yahoo or check in with the kids on facebook or shop for a new comforter? If you find an employee is wasting too much time online, then address it with that employee.

    Thoughts?

    1. NotAngryBlackWoman*

      I agree with you. I would also add that I am someone who works with younger generations. It is not uncommon for newer professionals to utilize social media as a way to relay work information by creating groups, group chats, shared documents etc.

      1. Honeybee*

        People of all ages do that, too. My coworkers in their 40s and 50s use Facebook and Twitter far more often than I do.

    2. LisaLee*

      Frankly, I thought this was ridiculous even in high school. Most people are going to need a break now and again, and treating employees like children doesn’t help morale. From a work point-of-view, a lot of that automated blocking software blocks websites people actually use for work-related tasks (like looking up Excel tutorials on YouTube, or factchecking via news sites).

      1. blackcat*

        I used to be a high school science teacher. For a while, our firewall blocked all NASA and JPL (jet propulsion laboratory) websites as pornography. I found this out one day when I went to project details of the voyager space crafts and got the “This is pornography” error.

    3. ArtK*

      Websites that provide streaming content can have a *huge* impact on the company’s network. Even sites like Facebook that don’t (usually) stream can end up using a lot of bandwidth. That bandwidth costs the company money — sometimes a lot of it. They’re paying for work-related use, not personal use, so banning sites that don’t have work-related content is perfectly reasonable.

      That’s above and beyond not wanting to pay people for for doing non-work-related things while on the clock. This stuff can turn into a serious time-suck.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, we had to block Netflix because folks were streaming movies and the lack of bandwith was wreaking havoc on our applications.

      2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

        Well Netlfix I guess makes sense – I am envisioning 5 minute breaks not a binge-session at a desk.

        2. Observer*

          Sure, that is what you are envisioning, but that’s often not what’s happening. Also, in an environment where bandwidth is constrained, all those 5-minute breaks can add up.

          At one point, we were very draconian in how we filtered – we blocked ALL media unless someone could probe they had a specific need for that specific site. We actually had to jump through some hoops to make it happen, but our internet access was really bad, and we had some mission critical items that we HAD to do over the internet. (NOT by choice! Government requirements…)

          Once we got FIOS, I stepped the filtering way down. We still do some filtering, but much, much more lightly. I totally agree that it’s better to manage your people than to try to keep them on the straight and narrow by over-filtering. And, besides, what are you going to do about their cell phones?

      3. Honeybee*

        Who is streaming 30-minute long television shows at their desk? I’m imagining the vast majority of people take a 10 minute break to post cat pictures on Facebook or fire off a quick tweet or something. And with shorter videos, even people on my team have been known to send around a funny short video that’s sometimes tangentially related to our jobs. Employees who are spending a lot of time on streaming content that’s eating up enough bandwidth to drain the company of $$$ are probably not good employees for a host of other reasons, and that should be addressed individually, but I see no reason to ban EVERYONE because a small percentage of employees are abusing connectivity.

    5. Tegdirb*

      It doesn’t bother me but I agree for all the reasons you’ve mentioned above AND because most people have smartphones. So if they want to screw around on facebook, they can. And they won’t even be looking at their work computer.

    6. H.C.*

      Agreed and also, unnecessary site blocking is hardly practical nowadays in the age of smartphones – which may even impact productivity more by taking time away from their work computer/desk/office/etc.

    7. JOTeepe*

      I’m with you. Those filters are often buggy, too. I’ve worked at offices where news sites, for example, were blocked but certain blogs were not. All because of the platform they were published on. Plus, so many people have smartphones, it’s easy enough for employees to abuse.

      If an employee isn’t getting their work done, address that. You can even have IT do a trace as to how much time they are spending on personal business. (I wouldn’t do this unless I already had concerns about the employee doing their work.)

    8. Lily in NYC*

      I guess it depends on the company, but my company blocks certain types of sites (like gaming, porn, dating sites, anything dirty, etc) but not things like news or shopping. We have a “quota”, meaning we can use shopping sites for an hour a day before they get blocked. But I think much of the reason many sites are blocked are to avoid viruses, not just to stop employees from web surfing.

      I can’t believe we don’t block facebook because I always see people wasting time on it here.

    9. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      My old boss did this. However, he sucked at it (as he did with most things) and inadvertently wound up blocking everything and unblocking the stuff he thought we needed. However, he was terrible at this too, and so we’d waste hours every day sending him lists of websites we needed him to unblock for contact information and things like, you know, suppliers and business contacts! (And then he got pissy that we’d send long lists, and we had to send him no more than 3 websites per email to unblock.) And on top of all this he wouldn’t admit he was blocking them, he said “It’s an internet issue! I have to call the provider!” and…miraculously, everything would work after he unblocked it.

      It was a tremendous waste of everyone’s time and just made everyone look on their phones for stuff instead. I don’t see any point in forbidding your employees from checking the weather (blocked) or the local news for traffic updates before going home (blocked) or looking at the news in the morning (blocked–which was a pistol because we were supposed to be looking up news stories, FOR WORK).

      If an employee isn’t doing their job, address the root issue–don’t band-aid the problem and expect things to be better.

    10. Menacia*

      We block all the social media websites for users between working hours, they are free to browse from their own computers before or after a certain time of day, and we’ve also provided an Internet only computer from which they can browse during the day, but is not connected our network. The reason for all this being security, and avoiding people inadvertently downloading viruses that could affect our network. As it is, we get viruses with all of our security and web blocking in place, it would be far worse if we opened up internet access to the masses. Has nothing to do with productivity or treating people like children at all.

    11. Purest Green*

      I agree with you. It really bugs me that gaming sites are blocked at my work. Not just sites that host games (I get that) but sites that discuss or having anything at all to do with games. Trouble is, sometimes I need to look at those kind of sites or even the games themselves for the UI because it relates to the work I do.

    12. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on how aggressively you’re blocking. If you’re blocking porn, that is not unreasonable, unless you work at a porn company. If, however, you’re blocking social media? Ridiculous, especially since most companies have a social media manager of some type.

    13. LCL*

      IT handles all that here, I don’t get to decide. We can contact IT and ask them to unblock sites, I (and some others) asked them to unblock Ask A manager.

    14. Bad Candidate*

      I think that some sites should be blocked, porn, streaming, etc. for obvious reasons. But my work recently started blocking A LOT of stuff that it wasn’t blocking before. Anything it considers entertainment for example. Which is broadly defined. One of the sites that Alison publishes to is included in that, though I don’t remember which one. Not Inc or Intuit. So that’s annoying. It’s also blocking Imgur which is seriously harshing my Reddit experience.

    15. Joseph*

      My view has always been that for most employees, personal internet use is really just time that *still* would have been wasted in previous generations, just differently. 30 years ago, employees would spend an hour over the course of the day at the water cooler or taking a smoke while chatting about baseball; now that hour is spent on Facebook/Amazon/etc.

    16. Mazzy*

      I think don’t block but lightly track (just pull the list of sites every once in a while). I know I use lots and lots of sites looking up industry related codes and how to do formulas and mail merges and all MS things all over the net, I never know what site I am going to need.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      While I basically agree with you, I see that many places do block and I expect that we will see more of that in the future. Some jobs are already super strict. I think it is wise not to fall into the habit of taking this five-minute-vacations around the net. For some folks once they start it’s a hard thing to let go of, if they have to let go.

    18. Christopher Tracy*

      I’ve told this story here before, but when I worked at Evil Law Firm, they blocked the Internet entirely except between the hours of 11-2pm (the lunch block). It was hella dumb because if we had legal questions, we’d have to have a law clerk go up to our library and research it in (usually outdated) law books, which could take hours when we typically needed the answer right that minute. And we weren’t allowed to work through lunch either – if you were caught, you could be written up.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          No, that was considered a work tool, so that site and LexisNexis weren’t blocked thanks to our subscriptions. Everything else was on lockdown.

    19. DragoCucina (formerly Library Director)*

      We block some sights (Facebook) on some staff service point computers. Our student workers were so busy on these sites they weren’t paying attention to the public. The other staff computers aren’t blocked and we have two in the staff kitchen for lunch breaks.

      As they go through the semester we may unblock the sites. Sometimes the learning curve (no you cannot chat on your cell phone out front) is steeper.

  33. Anon City this time*

    I work at a very dysfunctional company and have been job searching for months. We have a fairly new manager who quite frankly isn’t working out. She is very abrasive/rude, makes insulting comments to be “funny”, is arrogant, but most importantly she is not a good worker. She doesn’t want to take on projects and the ones she does get stuck with she messes up. I know we all make mistakes but I’m talking pretty much every day. Everyone fixes them for her including me but I’m the only one who had the guts to show her what she’s doing wrong so she is aware. She gets defensive though (which is why others don’t talk to her about her errors.) I’m quite sure she’s been fired by several jobs (she told me!). How do I handle this with patience and an even temper until I get out of here? I’m tired of managing my manager which isn’t my job considering she is paid very well to do hers. I’m also sick of cleaning up her errors since I have my own work to do while she sits there twiddling her thumbs saying she’s bored. She is not a team player. She knows she messes up and doesn’t care. In fact, although others fix her mistakes, she sees the errors later. She even admitted that people review her work.
    Ps the owner is hands off & has a closed door policy. There is s history of bad management here which is why I’m trying to leave. I just am tired of trying to be zen while fuming at my desk.

    1. animaniactoo*

      2 suggestions

      1) Self-care self-care self-care outside of work. Find ways to very purposely create positive experiences for yourself, and release stress.

      2) Play with it. Create your own Bingo card of “mistakes that boss will make this week/month”. Pretend you’re an anthropologist doing research. Write sitcom dialogue in your head of “how this would look on tv”. Whatever gets you to detach from it some and be able to add some humor/composure about how bad this is.

      1. OhBehave*

        ^This! Why are you all rescuing her? Of course, if you don’t fix her mistakes and it looks bad for the team, then that’s not good either.
        If you do continue to fix her errors and attempt to educate her on them, do so by email so you have proof. It’s hard to understand how this person was hired as a manager. Apparently any warm body will do. It sounds like you would be a good manager.

    3. Marisol*

      I agree with animaniac and have 2 suggestions for specific kinds of self-care: 1) have a rage fest and 2) spring cleaning.

      You can’t *really* be zen while you’re actually fuming. Of course, you’ll have to fake it at work in order to present yourself well. But once you are in a place where you can safely do so, like your home, then go to town getting all your anger out. Beat pillows, scream, do an angry dance to loud percussive music, whatever. Go for a run and think about how much you hate this manager and pretend your feet are stomping on her, or whatever–the point is to honor and express your feelings instead of repressing them. There is pleasure in surrendering to your emotions, even the supposed negative ones.

      Spring cleaning. This is a technique I learned while attending a personal growth course taught by Regina Thomashauer, aka Mama Gena. You get a friend, and for ten or fifteen minutes, she listens to you get all your “stuff” out regarding a specific topic, using a specific format. She asks: “What do you have on [x]?” and you respond with what comes to mind, at which point the friend says, “thank you” and then again asks the question, “what do you have on [x]?” and this goes on until you hit the agreed-upon time. So if you wanted to spring clean on your manager, it would look like this:

      Friend: “what do you have on your manager?”
      You: “I hate that lousy, incompetent bitch.”
      “Thank you. What do you have on your manager?”
      “She insulted me today by telling my my dress was ugly, and then laughed as if she were making a funny joke. I really hate that bitch.”
      “Thank you. What do you have on your manager?”

      Etc. Usually the friends then switch places and the first friend does the cleaning while the second friend does the prompting. After the session, issues are not discussed; there is no post-mortem advice. The point is to get the stuff out, not to play therapist or mother to each other. You can google Regina Thomashauer and get a more detailed description in her books but hopefully what I’ve described is clear enough. Spring cleaning is incredibly liberating! If you do it once a day for a month, you’ll feel like a brand-new you.

      For the work situation specifically, unless it is truly unethical for you to do so, I wouldn’t try to fix the manager’s mistakes. I’d give her enough rope to hang herself and let her supervisors find out about them.

      1. nonegiven*

        I really love that. This one time my mom got really mad at my dad’s boss. Her house wasn’t dirty enough so she came over and cleaned mine.

    4. Op*

      You are all giving great advice. I am going to take this to heart this long weekend and do these things for real.

      Regarding just letting her fail, I’d like to do that & I’m trying, although it goes against my work ethic. Some of it just falls on me because mistakes have to get fixed one way or another. Honestly, not to brag, but I think I’d be a kick ass manager. I know how it’s done. It literally hurts me to not step in and fix things and get things moving productively, but more importantly, to solve the problem of why the mistakes are happening. Others fix her mistakes because it’s easier than dealing with her defensiveness. I’m the only one who points them out to her, because I want her to learn from them. She doesn’t though. She also doesn’t say sorry much (if ever?) or thank you for fixing her errors. It’s sort of expected that others will clean up after her.

      A large part of the problem is the fact that the owner sucks at hiring. Actually he sucks at a lot of things (like being a boss in general) but this one fault of his has affected our department before. He promised us (because of past bad hires) he would take his time hiring and he did the exact opposite. One thing I’ve learned is if your boss has a pattern of poor management and bad decisions, don’t expect that to change, thinking you can stay and work it out. I have no faith in his ability to manage his company or more importantly his employees who are the backbone of the company. There is zero accountability there. It ruins it for those who work hard and do good work.

      Did I mention she makes really good money (although she thinks she’s worth more and told us that) and I’m well below the starting market salary range for what my job should pay (after 5 years there)?

  34. LisaLee*

    It’s been a bit of a frustrating work week, and I’m not sure I made the right decision. I found out a few months ago that my department is being eliminated, and since then I’ve been looking for a new job. A couple days ago I got an offer–but at a 15% lower salary than the job ad had indicated. I tried to negotiate but was told there was no wiggle room.

    I accepted because I don’t have any other prospects at the moment (the field I’d like to enter is small and most positions require more education than I have) but now I’m having some buyer’s remorse. This is going to impact my finances quite a bit. The work I’ll be doing is interesting and my new boss seems like a nice guy, and I think someone genuinely screwed up in writing the ad because it DID seem like an unusually high salary for this position. But argh. This good news/bad news thing sums up my whole job search so far.

    This isn’t really a question, I could just use some commiseration.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I wouldn’t get worried yet. Maybe the new job has lots of great co-workers and little perks that will get you jumping out of bed to go to work each morning. Or you could be picking up some specialized skills that will make you more marketable in the future. I know loosing out on $$ can feel depressing, but you won’t know the impact until you are at the job for a few months. At that point you can reevaluate your decision, but for now I’d look at the situation as an adventure.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      I sure understand. I was unemployed, and took a job near the end of my unemployment for $15K less than I was getting before. It’s discouraging. Other than that, however, I really do like my job.

      I hope this turns out to be a great job for you, and in a couple of years you can start looking again, for something that looks like enjoyable work, and for much better pay.

  36. Isben Takes Tea*

    A shoutout to Alison and all the commenters here…thanks to all the advice and information I’ve picked up at AaM, I was able to convincingly encourage my roommate to get a new job, since her old one was a hallmark “toxic” environment: the COO insisted on misclassifying her as exempt, the CEO continually rotated through “favorites” and screamed at everyone else, dubious claims were being made to insurance companies, and the supervisors were always calling out sick and then posting fun family adventure photos on Facebook.

    She now has a job where she is paid twice as much and she’s stunned to come back from staff meetings where nobody cried. She also got out three weeks before half the old job’s employees’ paychecks bounced.

    So, on behalf on my roommate, THANK YOU!

    2. Marisol*

      Wonderful news! You are a good roommate and I bet your quality of life has improved too, now that you aren’t exposed to someone in a miserable situation.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think I just saw ten hands go up, volunteering to be OP’s room mate.
        Nice job on that, OP.

  37. XrPet*

    I was unemployed for a couple months, and I took a job I wasn’t thrilled about at a salary I wasn’t thrilled about, just so I can start working and make more than what unemployment paid. I’ve been here about 1.5 months. During unemployment, I interviewed at a huge company that would look great on my resume. I didn’t get that one, but I applied to another there and made it known to the recruiter that I was interested. During my first couple weeks here, they contacted me for that position. I interviewed (Took half a “sick” day) and got it. It’s better for my career in almost all the ways possible, and it literally pays almost 50% more. I have to give notice on Tuesday and I am wracked with guilt and the desire to keep everyone happy with me. I guess I have a little bit of the “disease to please.” Maybe it’s ingrained in me to be a nice, amenable, eager-to-please female.

    Everyone has been nice here, and they put effort into teaching me things and trying to help me adjust. But I just know I am not happy.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve seen this happen enough times to know that sometimes, life works this way. You will likely burn this bridge, but is it a bridge you really want to cross again? Also, I think people will be annoyed, for sure, but I don’t think they’ll hate you for it, you know what I mean?

      1. XrPet*

        Yes, thank you. You make sense. I forgot to mention that another person on this team quit a couple weeks ago after being here a couple months. But she gave zero notice and did not speak to the manager directly. Didn’t even write an email. Hopefully they don’t equate me with her, because I plan on doing it more honorably. I think it speaks to the way they hire here.

      2. Callietwo*

        This happened to me once where I took a job that they insisted I wouldn’t stay as I was way over-qualified only to give notice 7 weeks later and felt guilty as heck. One thing I did to ensure I didn’t burn any bridge was to give ample notice- I’d promised someone I would cover their vacation that was coming up in two weeks so I gave 3 1/2 weeks notice. When I told my new employer that I absolutely was obligated to hold to my word, they felt that just solidified their belief that I was the right candidate.

        Then, because there was no training manual, nor any daily checklists or what have you when I started, I took that 3 1/2 weeks and created a training manual. What I said to the supervisor when I left was that I wanted to leave them in a the best possible place that I could. So to you, I’d say, give as much notice as you can feel comfortable doing, if you’re given the opportunity to wrap up your projects be as thorough as you can. Then, I cleaned up my space and prepped it so that it saved someone else having to do that.

        Good luck in your new position!

        1. OhBehave*

          How very honorable of you to do this! I imagine the next person in that job will appreciate the documentation in the training manual. Your supervisor must have been pleased AND sorry to see you go.

          1. Callietwo*

            Thanks. I felt it was the least I could do given the situation. That particular company rarely hired full time year around workers nor gave benefits but when I gave my notice, my supervisor said “give me a bit of time, I’ll be right back”. Left and then came back, offered me FT, benefits and a small raise. However, just before I gave my notice, I heard her telling someone else that they hadn’t had raises in 5 years! And the new company benefits were amazing! free health/dental/ insurance, great PTO schedule, etc, commute was 5 minutes, not 45. When I told her what I was offered, she says “Are they hiring anyone else!?” But I always want to leave things in a better situation than when I arrive. It’s important to me.

    3. Anxa*

      Aww, that’s a tough position.

      I feel similarly sometimes (also have the disease to please). On top of that, I feel like if I DO leave for a better opportunity, I’m only reinforcing the stereotype of people with degrees looking for better jobs, which has hindered my own job search.

    4. Marisol*

      Good for you for doing what is in your own best interest. You know that saying, “feel the fear and do it anyway?” I think this is a “feel the *guilt* and do it anyway” situation. As long as you take the right action, your guilt feelings will dissipate in time. Plus you’re giving two weeks notice, right? I see no problem with leaving after a short time. Business is business.

      1. XrPet*

        I’m not going to give a full 2 weeks. I just haven’t done that much here yet to merit it. I don’t have a lot to finish up, but I want to give a few days so I can wrap up the few things I did work on. One of the reasons I’m unhappy here is because it’s in an industry I previously knew NOTHING about. It’s very techie stuff but I’m in content marketing and I’m supposed to write as if I’m an expert. I’ve had to attempt to learn so much, and it’s not really working because I’m more right-brained and I’ve never been able to comprehend enough to write. For example, I’ve been asked to write a whitepaper on a scripting language that I know nothing about. I’ve been asked to write an ebook on our software. But I can’t even comprehend how to do that without pontificating every word. It’s just been almost 2 months of ramping up, basically. I don’t understand why they don’t look to hire people who already have some background knowledge. I’m a writer, but never claimed to be a technical one. I knew I would have a lot to learn when I started, but I didn’t realize I’d be asked to write such resources.

        Plus I’m getting married in 2 weeks and I would’ve taken unpaid days off before that anyway.

        1. Marisol*

          Well it doesn’t sound like leaving before 2 weeks will cause any actual problems for them, although it might not exactly help you with a reference either. But you might not need one from them given the short tenure. Good luck!

  38. krfp13*

    My husband recently completed his AS in Accounting. He is looking for an accounting clerk type of position, and he’s in his early 30s. He has a five year work history gap. His work history was Marine Corps, veteran of Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, honorable discharge, and then he was an apprentice electrician for five years. He got his journeyman card when he quit. He quit because the physical nature of the job was exacerbating his service-connected (40%) disabilities, and he strongly disliked the people in the industry (construction). He then went back to school, but it took him a little time to figure out what his aptitudes and interests were, and what was most practical to pursue. He has been trying to address this directly in his cover letter, using the language Alison recommends saying that his medical issues are now resolved and adding that he’s excited to get back into the work force full time. He hasn’t been invited to interview yet, despite applying to about 30+ openings. He is going to go to a job fair this month. He was also advised by an acquaintance of ours that CPAs will start looking for clerks at the end of year for tax time, so that is hopeful. He has also only been searching since he graduated just over two months ago.

    Any advice for his situation? Words of encouragement/hope? Tips for job searching after a gap? Is he approaching the cover letter and addressing the work gap the best way? How can he get some interviews and interest? Are job fairs helpful (can people really get hired as a result of attending?)? I really don’t want him to get discouraged. I know that he has not been looking for long and I’m trying to keep him grounded in the reality that job searches can take many months, but he really wants to get back to earning.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I do think the fact that he went back to school helps a lot. I mean, that is particularly good reason to have an employment gap. Plus, he could mention that he was injured, but then after taking the time to fully recover, he decided to pursue college and a career change and so did not initially return to his old field of employment.

      As a veteran, he has a better chance of applying to and getting a federal or state government job, so I would encourage him to apply for those. Also, any type of civil jobs, such as police, fire, universities, etc. They all need accounting specialists too!

    2. JOTeepe*

      Not sure how exactly to incorporate this in a cover letter, however you state that “the physical nature of the job was exacerbating his service-connected (40%) disabilities.” I am assuming that this would not be an issue with a desk job. Maybe something to the effect of his health issues were related to the physical nature of his previous job, hence why he went back to school to pursue this degree?

      Another avenue, see if your State labor department has any employment resources for disabled veterans. I know for a fact New York does, and the NYS Civil Service department actually has a pathway for disabled vets to get employment with the state without having to take an (initial) exam, if you meet the min quals.

      (Dunno if this will apply to you, but may be useful for others. Link here: https://www.cs.ny.gov/rp55/)

      1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

        Can confirm – most state and federal agencies have preference of some kind for veterans and people with disabilities. Many cities do as well, and there’s always a need for clerks.

        Oftentimes financial management departments will be looking for folks with his qualifications too.

        1. RR*

          And its not just the government agencies, but also their contractors. There are a lot of organizations required to give preference to vets and would likely be very happy to hear from your husband if they have accounting vacancies

      2. krfp13*

        Yes, exactly, his physical issues would not be a factor with a desk job like an accounting clerk. He can do normal physical stuff, but a job where there is lots of bending, kneeling, reaching overhead, etc. he just can’t do anymore. We are in California, and he is the VA vocational rehab program, and has a CA employment counselor, but aside from the VA paying for school and two months’ living expenses stipend after graduation, they’re really not that much help. I will have him look into the CA civil service, maybe CA has something similar to NY. Thank you!

        1. Longtime Manager*

          I want to strongly endorse the advice Garland Not Andrews gave below. For Federal accounting jobs use http://www.usajobs.gov. It has a special section for veteran hiring information for Federal jobs at http://www.fedshirevets.gov. I have not checked out CA government preferences for veterans but the state is generally very disabled veteran friendly (children of disabled veterans who live in CA save serious $$$ when attending Cal State and UC colleges). For the USA jobs web site don’t simply use “accounting” when doing the key word search for positions, use “budget”, “finance”, “financial” “analyst”, etc. as well.

        2. Jbean*

          Go on usajobs.gov and put in your location or even locations where you’d like to live. I forget the percentage, but something like 90% of federal jobs are located outside of the DC area. (If he’s interested in federal employment.)

    3. JLK*

      Hello hello! I’m an Air Force Veteran and I dislike job fairs, if not those that suppose to cater to military/spouses. They ‘ghost’ meaning they take all the information, perhaps a resume, give the attendee all their ‘contact’ information and rarely are a point of contact once the attendee leaves the fair. However, the job fair company gets to say they made contact with # of Veterans and ‘yeah them’! The best thing job fairs are for are learning how to talk to people, over and over again, how to ask questions and answer possible interview questions.

      Gapping the gap: I would strongly encourage a skills based volunteer opportunity (not answering phones or lickey chewys) but doing some type of financial work with a non-profit. That will be challenging to convince with a non-profit (I’ve been in non-profit for 15 years) so I would get his school/professors behind him as references for his work. He could be good on a finance committee, or reviewing income-based service applicants (like Habitat for Humanity- I’ve worked for them) that requires determine financial stability and ability to receive services.

      I left my full time non-profit career to start a business, but kept a part time non-profit seasonal job to gap. I volunteer 5 times a week, with different non-profits, using different skills in my wheelhouse. That alone took 5 months to organize.

      He will get discouraged and you’ll have to be the patient, loving cheerleader that you know you can be. But also encourage non-work activities that takes his mind off the ‘job of getting a job’. Sadly, Veterans are not as heralded as they are on t.v. and commercials.

      I also recommend tracking every application timeline and create taskers for follow-up. That makes one feel that they’re at least keeping tabs on their future, and not leaving it up to the HR gods.

    4. Garland Not Andrews*

      Please check out jobs on www. usajobs. gov . With his military service he has a higher hire ability than non military. Many agencies have accounting tech positions. The application process can be a pain in the backside, but the work is good and benefits really good.
      I also agree to look for tax season jobs, fyi some may be available right now as the final tax deadlines in October are close. A tax season job can really get you an in with a CPA’s office, especially if you are a hardworker and don’t mind the long hours.

    5. Natalie*

      If he isn’t already, he should work with a staffing firm (in addition to looking on his own). Accountemps/Robert Half is the largest in the US, and there may also be smaller firms in your area – just google “accounting staffing firm”. They have temp, temp-to-hire, and direct hire opportunities and some of them are jobs that won’t be posted on any job board. (Mine wasn’t.)

  39. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

    Hi guys, two email-themed questions here.

    1. I am working on a project with several folks, one of whom uses an incredible number of emoji in every email, including serious ones. (I once got an email that said “Thank *smiley**smiley**smiley* you*smiley**smiley*!!”) A new person who joined the team is blind and uses a screenreader, and the emoji basically make the email unreadable. I asked Mr. Smiley to stop and he basically said “yeah yeah” and then “but it makes the email happy!” and has continued. My blind colleague is the only person in the entire agency with a certain skill needed for this project to succeed, and I personally find the emoji in serious emails extremely annoying. (One smiley is fine. I do not need ten.) Help?

    2. On another project a junior colleague insisted on including a PS directed to me in our common native language. (I’m leaving out the language since I’d like to stay anonymous, and it’s not one of the more common immigrant ones. There aren’t many accessibility folks who speak this language at home.) I translated it in the response to everyone (it was basically a holiday greeting) but how should I explain to her that this is not great?

    1. LisaLee*

      #1 seems fairly straightforward to me. Don’t make it a request. “Bob, emojis make emails unreadable for John, so you need to stop using them. Thanks.”

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      On #1 – are you senior to this person in any way or on the same level? If you are senior, don’t ask. Tell. “Your use of emojis makes it difficult for Steve to do his job. You need to stop. X will happen if you don’t.” If you aren’t senior, and you are *sure* this is an issue for Steve, I think addressing it with Mr Smiley’s supervisor might be the best course of action.

    4. NW Mossy*

      #1 is giving “guy who can’t stop commenting on his colleague’s prosthetic leg” a run for his money in the ablist department. I think you need to say bluntly “Mr. Smiley, your emojis make it impossible for Fergus to know what’s in them because they conflict with the screenreader. He’s a critical part of this project and needs to know what’s going on to do his job effectively. You need to stop using emojis so that he can do that. You can express your happiness/enthusiasm with words instead.” After that, you know the AAM drill – determine who has the authority to take corrective action against him and bring that person in. Since this is a disability-related item, HR may also need to be involved. But he needs to knock it off.

      The advice to #2 is similar. “Hey, when you write things in [language] in emails that include more than just us, other people can feel excluded or worry that you’re saying mean things about them. You aren’t doing that, but they have no way to know that. I know you want to have good relationships with everyone here, and part of that is seeing how this looks to them as outsiders and respecting them enough to use our shared language.” If you were OK with her using the language in emails just with you, you could say so, but definitely nip it on the group stuff.

      1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

        Thanks! Drafting a similar thing to your suggested response in 2 now. I’m generally cagey about speaking [language] at work generally, since I would rather have everyone included on the water cooler topics too.

        On #1, my blind colleague and I are probably going to draft a very direct email to Mr. Smiley explaining that he needs to knock it off. If that doesn’t work, I can go to Mr. Smiley’s manager, with whom I’m on fairly good terms.

        Thanks friends!

        1. Mimmy*

          Does Mr. Smiley know that your colleague is blind and uses a screenreader? He genuinely may not be aware. But yes, a direct email is the way to go. I like NW Mossy’s wording. If he continues to disregard the request after that, I would take it to a manager because it is preventing him from doing his job effectively.

          By the way, I love your screen name!

            1. Dawn*

              That seems like it’d make it easy then: “Fergus, Samuel cannot read your emails due to the smilies. Stop using the smilies so that Samuel can read your emails.” Because, at that point, it’s getting into discrimination territory and runs into accessibility issues.

    5. Bruce H.*

      #2 Several other commenters have offered good advice on this one. If she does it again, I’d be tempted to mis-translate it something really nasty.

      1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

        Oof, that would be funny.

        Update on #2: I spoke to the colleague and she got it. She’s pretty young, so I don’t think she quite got that info. Waiting for the email on #1 to come back.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Ooh, update us on #1 too. (I’d put a smiley in here, but I think we’re limited to text. Perhaps for accessibility reasons!)

          1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

            Will do! We’re off for the weekend and Mr. Smiley does not check his email during the weekend.

  40. AliCat*

    Question for Higher Ed folks:

    Does anyone know that the equivalent of Institutional Effectiveness is in the UK? And, as someone working in an IE role at a US institution, do you think the skills are transferable to a similar position in the UK?

  41. Sera*

    Today is my last day at my current job. It’s my first proper job (ie in the field I’d studied) after graduating university and I’ve been here just over 5 years.

    It was a good starting point for my career, and I was quite happy the first three years or so, but I’ve known for quite a while that I’ve gotten pretty much all I can from this role. Staff turnover here is relatively high (3 years seems like the average) and while I’m not /unhappy/ it’s definitely time to move onwards and forwards.

    Weird thing is, even though I’ve been thinking (and planning) this for so long, the closer it got to my final day the more I didn’t want to think about leaving. There were times I actually /hoped/ to have a bad day at work so I’d feel more eager to leave. (But then when people know you’re leaving they tend to make more effort to be nice).

    It’s normal to feel this apprehensive, right? If I was offered the chance to stick with the status quo (or to delay my departure by even a week) there’s no way I’d do it, because I’m sure leaving is right and that my next destination is more in line with the path I want to follow. But I don’t think I’ve ever been so unsure (in the moment) about something that feels so right.

    Don’t know if any of this makes any sense, the anxiety is making me ramble.

    1. R.*

      I can relate. I’m not leaving yet, but I had a third interview today for another job and it seems like there’s a very good shot I’ll get it. At first I was thrilled—I want to leave for the same reasons you list—but now that it seems like it might actually be happening, I’m getting scared! In the last few years of knowing it’s time to move on, I’ve often wished that things would be worse so that my decision would be easier. I think that the better and more comfortable you have it at your current job, the scarier it is to leap into the unknown. Definitely normal.

    3. OhBehave*

      This makes so much sense. You are moving from the familiar to the unfamiliar. Your coworkers are nice and that may make it hard to leave. Humans have a hard time with change sometimes. You have exciting changes ahead of you, embrace that adventure.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, this is normal. Leaving a job is usually a mixed bag of emotions and there is no one certain way you “should” feel. And yeah, no matter how bad a job is, at least it is familiar. But you will become familiar with the new place, too. You have been with this place for five years, so it’s safe to assume you work at your job and you work at getting along with folks. It will probably be okay at the next job,too. You will have to write in later on and let us know how it’s going at the new place.

  42. Myrin*

    I know there are fellow Germans here and I wondered if any of you guys know of a work advice blog that is similar in quality to Alison’s, but pertaining to Germany? A lot of AAM advice can be used here without problems as well but there’s always gonna be stuff that is just different/doesn’t apply here and I don’t really know how to find blogs that are actually good (especially with regards to legal work stuff).

    Also, AAM readers of different countries altogether – are there AAM-like blogs or advice boards in your country/language as well and would you like to share them?

    2. Ariel*

      I’d be really interested in job advice blogs that are more tailored to the UK.

      Most of the advice here is probably applicable, but I wouldn’t know which are and which are not. For a while I wrote thank you notes after interviews before someone mentioned that’s really not done in the UK.

    3. Tau*

      I can’t help, but if anyone else can offer one up I’d be really grateful as well! I’ll probably be job-searching in Germany next year and considering I haven’t lived in Germany since high school I am a little worried about how this will go.

  43. MacGirl*

    Does anyone have any experience with jobs through Care.com? I work part-time, and am actively seeking full-time/additional part-time work. I got the idea that I could walk dogs in my neighborhood and maybe house sit through the website, but I am curious to know how effective it is in terms of landing side jobs and/or if any AAM followers have tried it out. Thanks in advance!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I tried it when I was unemployed for a month. DO NOT put your phone number on your profile! I got spam calls/texts for months after I closed my profile. Only coordinate with clients via Care.com until you get to know them.

      I only did one babysitting gig and remembered how much I dislike babysitting. But it seems like a good site overall. Care doesn’t seem to be that popular in my area, though.

    2. FoodieNinja*

      I haven’t tried it, but my husband’s aunt has developed a pretty steady clientele through it. She retired about 9 months ago and has found enough work through Care that she hasn’t needed to find permanent part- or full-time work (which had been her intention after retirement). She’s in a large city, so obviously that helps. I haven’t had a chance to talk to her in detail, but I gather that she’s very happy with the variety and flexibility.

    3. Shoe Ruiner*

      I don’t have personal experience with this but there is a similar site for pet sitting. rover.com.

        1. Natalie*

          I’ve used it as a client and it seems pretty good, FWIW. The interface is easy to use and there are lots of options for the sitters to indicate what they do, when they’re available, if they’ll feed cats, etc. You can book out for sitting, walking, 30-minute visits, boarding in your home, and probably some other stuff.

    4. OhBehave*

      My daughter was part of Care.com a year or so ago. She got spam calls and had some contact with a few creepy situations. She did get one job through them, but that’s it. I’m not sure how well Care.com screens their clients based on the spam and creepy people trying to set up babysitting.

    5. Honeybee*

      Two of my friends in graduate school found medium-to-long term babysitting positions through Care.com to earn supplemental income while in school. Both of them ended up caring for some kids after they came home from school until their parents came home from work, and occasionally on date nights or whatever for their parents when they needed care.

      If you want to walk or care for dogs, another website to check out is Rover.com. I use that site to house my dogs over vacations all the time; I’ve used it for the 2 years I’ve had a dog in the various locations I’ve lived. It’s marketed as an alternative to boarding your pets in a kennel, which I love – I’d rather Zelda stay in the home of a pet lover who will fawn over her than put her in a boarding facility where she’d be in a cage all day long :( My current long-term carer is a stay-at-home dad who takes in a bunch of dogs at the same time and has a gigantic backyard, so she’s basically at the dog park the entire time she’s there, lol. He also takes semi-professional pictures of Zelda romping and having a great time. She loves him – she whines when we get close to his house and jumps all over him when we get there. And she’s pooped for days when she comes home!

      Rover also allows you to find people who want someone to both dog and house sit – a lot of people prefer that you come and stay in their house for XX days while they’re away to care for their pup in the pup’s home environment.

  44. Bluesheart*

    I need some advice.

    We have a temp to perm executive assistant, she can do the work but I think her personality is going to be a issue, I have heard from several people some with whom she works with that she doesn’t seem approachable which is an issue because I am trying to transition some on my responsibilities to her and she needs to deal with our internal people. Do I let my boss know that she isn’t going to be a fit? There has been a recent issue where she become defensive when I mentioned that she missed something. I can see this becoming an issue if she became defensive on a minor issue. Our department is small and we all get along with each other so having someone standoffish is not going to work in this department.

    1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Do you feel it is something that could be fixed if addressed? I’d try that first before deciding she isn’t going to work out. Let her know the role requires X, Y, Z and does she think she can work on that?

      1. zora.dee*

        I agree with this, and would also add ask her agency (if she is staffed through an agency). The person who placed her is a good person to go to with concerns like this, and they can also talk to her about where she needs to improve. If it’s a good agency, they are used to things like this and are good at handling it.

        And after giving one chance for her to improve, I think you definitely go to the boss and say she is not a good fit for X and Y reasons. This is exactly why to do temp to perm placements, so that you have an opportunity to find the right person to offer the job to.

        Do this all quickly though, the longer you drag it out, the harder it will be for everyone.

        1. Marisol*

          I agree with this 100%, and also want to underscore the need for quick action. I would also see going to the boss with potential problems as erring on the side of caution, rather than seeing it as being unfair to the temp.

          Additionally, if you are not making the hiring decision, then you are not really the one deciding whether or not she will be a good fit; however you can and should report what you have observed. If you have reached the conclusion that she isn’t a fit, you can give your honest opinion, but if you can’t definitively say either way and are still mulling it over, then you can say you haven’t reached a firm conclusion, but that you have concerns.

          I think it would be natural to see potentially rejecting a candidate as sort of a risky move, because you are influencing someone’s fate in a way, and because you yourself don’t want to seem difficult, and that therefore not offering criticisms about the temp would be a more conservative way to handle the situation, but actually the opposite is true. You have more to lose by endorsing the wrong candidate than you do by looking like a “mean girl” who rejects the temp. Because once she’s on the staff, there *will* be consequences to voicing concerns about her, and it will be harder for the company to let her go.

          Not sure if any of that addresses how you view your situation, but I recently had to work through a similar thing so I thought you might feel the way I did.

  45. Anonymous Educator*

    Did anyone else read that story about the woman who got scammed by a startup? It was quite horrific, especially the fake wire transfer. Yikes! I’ll link to it below.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, that was terrible. The effed up thing is, I bet similar things happen all the time! (Although with probably less actual fraud.) I’m thinking of that “gig” company for housecleaning? [googles] Handy! There were a ton of terrible stories about them.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, the worst comments on her piece were ones like “What did you expect? This is very common for startups!” Like that makes it okay? Nope! And, really, it may be common for startups to be unstable or to not pay people on time, but it isn’t (or definitely shouldn’t be) common for CEOs to lie about already having paid you.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Back when The Consumerist had a more active comments section, they actually had to change their comments policy because so many people treated every story as a competition to brag about how THEY wouldn’t have fallen for that and THEY would never have had that bad thing happen because they always do X, Y and Z. Some people just love to crap on other people’s misfortune in order to brag about how smart they are.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            I think this author has shown a lot of courage in even admitting to having been scammed. That kind of vulnerability is hard to show in public. You already start to doubt your own judgment, and then random strangers on the Internet start attacking you.

            I’m glad to hear The Consumerist changed its comments policy.

            2. alter_ego*

              I’m happy to hear it to! I stopped reading after every comment thread either turned into how can we blame this on the victim, and, if the victim was also fat, how can we blame this on the victim for being fat. It wasn’t worth it any more.

            3. nonegiven*

              Consumerist changed its comment policy to restrict comments so much that very few articles have any comments and then it’s usually just one. There is a very small list of ‘ß commenters’ and no one else can log in.
              The articles I clicked on were mostly just to read the comments and now they’re gone. I hardly ever read any of it, now.

        2. Lily Rowan*

          Uggghhhhh.

          But seriously, that story was VERY DIFFERENT from knowingly gambling on a small business that isn’t making money yet.

          1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

            Agreed. I have worked for startups. And while they were perhaps overly optimistic about future funding, they were always clear about current funding. And never perpetrated fraud to get around paying people.

    4. Honeybee*

      I did! The article was so good – so well-written – but the story was horrifying. And satisfying. It’s good to finally see some people writing about the truth about start-ups. They’ve been feted as universal positives and most people thin of Uber or Snapchat when they think of start-ups, not the many many other small startups that mostly crash and burn pretty quickly. I have nothing against them but I think a more nuanced look is required.

  46. AndersonDarling*

    My husband started a new job yesterday! He has been unemployeed for 2 years and we have been on so many rollercoasters of interviews (he interviewed at one company for 9 months and then they lost the job opening!) and financial grumblings. I was really getting hopeless because it had been so long and his work history beforehand wasn’t the most solid.
    It’s like I can breathe and we can start enjoying life again!

  47. Manders*

    Does anyone have advice about how to prevent stress outside of work from affecting your work performance? I’m dealing with some really tough stuff at home right now (not, alas, solveable–my mom has been diagnosed with ALS) and I feel like stress about that is starting to change the way I act at work.

    I’m still getting praised for my creativity and hard work, but I feel like I’m not as sharp as I used to be and it’s harder to feel enthusiastic about new projects. I get distracted by random internet things more easily and I’m not as bubbly as normal. I’m also having problems getting enough sleep or not feeling rested after sleep, and on the worst days it’s like trying to think through fog. It’s hard to tell sometimes if I’m being too hard on myself or if my work output really is suffering.

    I don’t have an EAP, but will be able to use my future husband’s EAP in January. Taking a vacation just for myself isn’t an option, since all my time off will go towards visiting her or to my upcoming wedding (we’re having a sort of “emergency wedding” closer to her so she can be there, which is an added layer of stress because I am planning it long-distance with the help of sometimes-difficult relatives). I’ve told my direct bosses about the situation and they’re understanding, but the head of the company is a yeller and I’ve already burst into tears at work once. I really like this job and I want to make sure I leave in another 6 months or year with a great reference, since it’s the perfect stepping stone into a career I’m enthusiastic about.

    1. Collie*

      First, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Illness really sucks. So, I posted a couple weeks ago about how my brother died recently (he was 22) and I’m back to work and it was hard and how do I deal with it and all that. While all the advice in there was great (and I highly recommend being really adamant about carving out time for self-care outside of work time), I think there are some key things: 1. Acknowledge you’re going through some crap. Accept it. Own it. Know it. 2. Trust your coworkers/supervisors to be reasonable about it. 3. Understand and internalize that it will take time for you to mentally get back to where you were. I know illnesses are a little different in that it will be ongoing, but I strongly believe that you will be able to take this into your life as “the new normal” (something I’ve been clinging to lately) and soldier on. But with the caveat that part of soldiering on is resting when you need it and being protective of You Time. Wishing you all the best.

      2. Manders*

        You’re right, I’ve been stretched awfully thin these last few months and I haven’t set aside much time for self-care. I thought it would be good to keep up my normal social schedule, but it does mean I rarely have time to myself.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

      I think it’s great that you looped your bosses in. I also think that means you can/should be able to check in with them once in a while, just for general “check ins” and to alleviate your concerns about your output. Let them know, “hey, I’m still adjusting to this personal thing, and trying to keep it out of my work, but I can’t help being nervous that it’s affecting my work. Do you have any concerns (and will you tell me if you do)?” It might feel weird, but at least that’s one stress off your shoulders.

      With yelling boss… can they be looped in? Do you want them looped in? Not that I think it’ll stop the yelling but – they might be more sympathetic if you need to excuse yourself from a conversation. “I understand your concern / that you’re upset, but can I have a minute before we continue the conversation?” You should be able to walk away and get composed before it comes to tears (or at least public tears). Bathrooms, your car, a quick walk in a remote area of the building or outside are all great for composing yourself.

      Good luck, I hope your wedding is wonderful, and you got this!

      +1 for Collie’s self-care comments.

      1. zora.dee*

        In addition to the boss, are there any other coworkers you feel like you could tell and ask for their help for a bit? If I was your coworker and knew this was happening (or just “something major” I don’t need to know the details) I’d be happy to help out where i can: do an extra proofreading run over your work, back you up to other coworkers, even represent you/your team in meetings so you can have less interactions with the yeller, etc. Think about ways you might get some backup from coworkers in the short term, at least while this all is so fresh.

        I’m so sorry about everything that is happening, and hope you find some ways to get through it. Big Hugs.

        1. Manders*

          Something I’ve been struggling with a bit is that there’s a lot of turnover in the office, and the people who do stick around don’t really understand what I do or care about my work (I am in marketing at a law firm, most other staff are paralegals and legal assistants who work in a different room). My two direct bosses have been understanding, but I was already feeling a bit cut off from the rest of the staff and I don’t want to overburden my already busy bosses by needed them to pick up my slack.

          I don’t work directly with the yeller much, fortunately. I don’t know if he’s been looped in or not–one of my bosses is his wife. When I did cry, I think I did a good job of staying professional around him and I didn’t lose it until the meeting was over and I was in the bathroom. But once the tears started it took a reeeeeeeally long time to stop.

          1. zora.dee*

            Awww, I’m so sorry, Manders, this sounds so hard :o(

            One more idea to get you extra help, can you ask your boss if there is anyone else (an admin or assistant) who would have a little extra time to help give you some backup in the short-term? That way they know that you might need a little extra slack, but you also aren’t assuming they will do it themselves. Again, if I was an admin even for another department, I would be happy to help for a while. Answer your phone line, and take messages? I don’t know. But put some thought into tasks that either someone else could help with or that you could let drop for a few weeks without being a major problem. I’m sure your boss would appreciate having some solutions in place that would help make sure things will keep running mostly smoothly.

            But best wishes on everything.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Manders, I’m sorry about your mom. My dad died of something very similar (but no one’s ever heard of it). I was lucky to have an amazingly accommodating boss but I also made sure to let HR know. My parents live 1000 miles away, so I arranged to take a week off every three months to help (I get a decent chunk of vacation here and I did this for the entire 7 years he was sick) and took two months of FMLA near the end of his life because my mom was at her breaking point.
      This is the type of thing that employers are generally very decent about (not always, but usually).

      What I never did and wish I had was take care of myself. I put my life on hold for 7 years and now when I look back, I realize I was depressed and stressed but I was too worried about everyone else to do anything about it. Allow yourself to be sad. Join a support group for ALS caregivers if you think it might be helpful to vent to people who are going through the same thing. Keep up with normal things like getting your hair cut and going to the dentist. And try to enjoy the time you have left with your mom. Again, I’m so sorry – it’s such a terrifying diagnosis to deal with and it’s so hard to watch the disease progress. My sister and mom were active on message boards for people with my dad’s disease, but I found that they really depressed me so I stopped reading them.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Shoutout to caregiver support groups — if you can find the right one, I think it’s incredibly helpful to not only vent, but share tips and recommendations and etc.

      2. Manders*

        I’m so sorry about your dad, that sounds incredibly difficult.

        The feeling of putting “normal things” on hold is definitely something I’m struggling with. I’m normally all right at adulting, but I keep getting overwhelmed at simple things like managing my social calendar and keeping up with my hobbies. I think I’d be at least a little stressed out by everything going on even if my mom were healthy, this is a year full of life changes like marriage and a new job and a huge change in my partner’s job, so I feel like I’ve lost my sense of what “normal” even looks like.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Oh wow, that is a lot of changes. Yep, you probably would be building a new sense of normal without your mom’s illness.

          Allow extra time for everything. If it takes you 20 minutes to get to work, allow 25 or 30. If takes you 40 minutes to fix dinner, then allow 50 or 60 minutes. Padding your time estimates will help give you some slack and help to lighten some pressures. It will also give you some slack if something comes up that you must deal with.

          Prioritize. You may have to let some things go. Let’s say your goal is to bathe the dog one a week. Of course, getting the dog fed is more important. Lower the priority of bathing the dog with the idea that feeding him is the most important thing and bathing him is more optional. Other things you may find ways to make less labor intensive. I always make two lunches at a time, that way two days are covered.

          And you sound like you may have some grief symptoms going on –being overwhelmed by your calendar, keeping up with things you enjoy, foggy brain, distracted, less enthusiastic etc. Please do some reading about grief. It’s not just for funerals. We can mourn a loved one’s loss of health, sometimes even heavier than say, a funeral.

          As I read the list of changes you have here, the thing that jumped at me is “the passage of time”. Sometimes events in our lives puddle up and we suddenly become aware that “hey, I am not 17/25/38 any more, everything around me has changed so much.” Invest in your self care. If you are already doing a few things, maybe add something or switch something. Our routines can carry us and our routines can comfort us. When my husband passed, I WANTED to the dishes. It was one of the few things that seemed to remain the same. I did some of my clearer thinking while I was doing those stupid dishes.

          Which brings me to my overall point, as you consider what to do, keep it simple and keep it doable. Let’s say you decide to read up on grief. With the idea of keeping it simple this means selecting one book, not ten. Bring the one book home and read it. Keep it simple so you will successfully accomplish what you start out to do. With this approach, in months to come you will start to see that you have helped yourself to move toward your new normal.

    4. DG's gal*

      I am so sorry you are dealing with all this. Self care if VERY important right now. Could you talk to your doctor about prescribing a mild sleep aid maybe? If you are adverse to that, could you find some time to schedule a weekly massage? A friend of mine did that after she lost her husband and couldn’t sleep, and it helped so much. Sleeping better could help with the distractions, the “fog”, the stress, etc. Exercise is also wonderful helping with stress. If you aren’t a runner (like me) and can’t join a gym, there are some wonderful exercise videos by Leslie Sansone (you can buy them on Amazon) that you can do right in your own home.

      In the mean time, do you have some resources to help with your mom, any other family members that could pitch in? If not, I’ll bet you could find some advice from the ALS Association: http://www.alsa.org/als-care/resources/. Even her community or religious organization may have some resources, such as meals on wheels, transit, home health care, etc. I wish you much luck, and best wishes to you!

    5. Bye Academia*

      That really sucks. I’m sorry you’re going through such a hard time.

      I know you said you don’t have an EAP, but how is your health insurance? Have you thought about seeing a therapist through your healthcare plan? Or possibly your GP for temporary help and/or a referral? It’s normal to feel less sharp than you used to be when you’re struggling, but perhaps therapy and/or temporary medication could help you as you work out your grief.

      1. Manders*

        I do have health insurance and I want to see a therapist, but the insurance limits me to a very small pool of providers and I’m having a hard time finding one who will see me outside of work hours. I don’t want to take time off work right now because I need to save up that time and money to travel out to see her, she lives 3,000 miles away from me.

        I’ve been looking into some apps that connect you with a therapist online until I can access that EAP.

    6. OhBehave*

      So very sorry to hear about your mom’s diagnosis. You’ve got a lot going on right now so it’s understandable that you feel you are performing at less than peak capacity. I’m not going to diagnose you but I would urge you to try and find a therapist. Would your boss allow you to increase your lunch time to work in an appointment? Or work through lunch to make a late apt? Lunch therapy appts may not be the best thing to do at first. If your bosses are supportive, keep them informed as much as you are comfortable doing. They may very well forget momentarily that you are dealing with so much.

      Being so far away, you are not your mom’s direct caregiver and I’m sure that is wearing on you. My mom was diagnosed with COPD 10 years ago. I live an hour away and have a family as well as a job. Thankfully my brother and sister live and work nearby so they can see to her immediate needs. We’ve been operating on a ‘new normal’ for about 15 years since my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s (he passed13 years ago).

      Others have suggested self-care time. This is essential to your overall health. What is your favorite thing to do? Knitting, reading, journaling, coloring, etc. Whatever it is start doing it if only for 20 minutes a day.

      Let yourself know that it’s ok to feel like your life is out of sorts because it is. You cannot ‘snap out of it’. Be sure to talk with your fiancé’ about this too.

  48. Future Assistant*

    I’m currently in a program to become a legal assistant. In my country, that can either be a paralegal or a legal secretary, but it’s more likely that I’ll start out as a legal secretary and eventually be promoted to a paralegal.

    If you have an assistant (or even if you don’t) what does a good assistant do? What does a terrible assistant do?

    1. Christopher Tracy*

      I spent most of my working life as an assistant, and what made me good at it was my ability to be flexible, anticipate my boss’s needs, and my attention to detail. I was also a paralegal, and the thing that made me good at that was volunteering to assist wherever I could throughout the firm. I learned so much by doing this (and I had no formal paralegal training) and that work led me to an even better career later.

      Good luck with your studies.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Just a couple ideas from my own experiences:

      My boss wants me to do what she asks first, she does not want me deciding that some random thing is more important than what she is talking about.

      Sometimes my boss needs me to step in and take over a problem. For example, if her computer does not work. She wants me to just take that concern off her hands. Most bosses have something that they just are not great at and would prefer you to handle it. They usually tell you directly or you just notice that they need you to do it for them.

      Keep track of dates, names, phone numbers, etc.
      Be accurate.
      These two things mean saying “I don’t know” if you really don’t know. Then you figure out how you will find the answer for the question.

      A terrible assistant does the opposite of these things here.

  49. Savannah*

    Can anyone tell me if they think New York’s new paid family leave laws will affect out of state branch offices of NY based companies where the parent office in NY has 500+ employees and the branch offices (all located in New England) have 10-12 employees? All employees have the same benefit policies as of now.

    1. bb-great*

      The NY family leave is paid for by a state fund made up of employee taxes, so I would assume it wouldn’t cover employees in other states unless you were paying NYS income taxes. Or unless your employer took it upon themselves to offer that benefit to other employees at their own expense.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      You are subject to the laws of the state you live in. So, the paid family leave won’t apply UNLESS your company makes it company-wide.

      1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

        I worked for a company headquarted in California – it would have been amazing to be protected by their laws, but alas….

  50. Not My Job?*

    To put it bluntly, I need some help figuring out how much of my boss’ job I should do for him.

    I work as one of two staff that run a program within a larger department at a nonprofit. My boss is the director of the program; I manage program outreach.

    My boss is great at some parts of his job, but fundamentally lacks management skills – both in terms of managing his own to-do list (he has, and I’m not kidding, 10,000+ unread emails in his inbox, going back over 5 years) and managing his staff. He just… doesn’t do things that are basic parts of his job: short-term to-dos like responding to requests from other departments who need information about our program or writing thank you notes to donors; but also bigger-picture things like signing off on a fundraising strategy or managing a problematic relationship between two other staff members.

    Because he just doesn’t do this stuff, the responsibility for getting it done falls to me (or, I suppose, I could let it just not get done, but that would be a road to ruin for the program). On the day-to-day to-dos, he seems to have an unstated expectation that it’s my responsibility to catch the balls he drops. On the bigger-picture issues, I bring him proposals for how to handle the situation (sometimes he asks for this, sometimes I just do it as a strategy to get something moving when I know it’s off track).

    I am not his assistant and it is not my job (unless it is, and he just hasn’t formalized that) to track his workload and help make sure that he’s getting done the things he needs to get done. I am also explicitly not responsible for overall program management (were I classified as a program manager, I would be paid significantly more).

    I’m increasingly frustrated with all of this. So my question is this: do I need to recalibrate my understanding of the kind of support I should be providing my boss? Or, if my boss is acting unreasonably, what other actions should I take?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I think you have to talk to your boss about what you’re picking up from him and how it’s affecting your ability to do your job. He probably doesn’t notice that he’s dropping balls, because why would he? You’re picking them up and he’s not hearing any complaints. But if you tell him, “I have less time to do XYZ because I’m picking up ABC,” then he knows that he needs to start doing ABC again or else be okay with the fact that XYZ isn’t going to get done well.

      Would you be okay with it if his answer is, “Yes, I need you to do this administrative stuff, at the expense of what used to be ‘your’ job”? (If his answer is, “Just find a way to do it all,” then I think it’s time to think about a new job, or at least push back hard with “doing both is unsustainable, so can we talk about getting another person to handle ABC?”) If you would be, you can approach the convo with the angle of, “I can’t do both ABC and XYZ, which one should I focus on?” and if not, you can come at it from, “I can’t do both ABC and XYZ, what can we do to get ABC back off my plate?”

      But if you don’t explicitly state it’s a problem, he won’t know it’s a problem.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      I’m so sorry. This sounds like my former boss but 1000x worse! I just threw up my hands and leapt at the very first opportunity to switch from program to admin (away from him!).

      Good advice above. Hope it works out!!

    3. zora.dee*

      Ugh, I’ve worked with these people in npos as well, it is not fun.

      I would say either ask for a promotion and raise (Assistant Director, Deputy Director, Program Manager, etc) so that you get credit for taking these things on, or start job hunting now. It is not going to serve you well to stay in the long-run, doing the director’s job as well as your own, for lower pay. Don’t do this forever. But then again, I have a short fuse these days, so I’m quick to go for the nuclear option. But that’s my advice. Good luck!!!

    4. Marisol*

      Personally, I would go ahead and do his job and mine, and see that as a “de-facto” promotion where I develop my management skills and other skills, and I’d keep a list of all my job responsibilities. I would then leverage this in one or all of the following ways: 1) present my accomplishments at the time of performance review and make my case for a generous raise and/or promotion; 2) use my knowledge of my boss’ tasks to my advantage by networking with members of the broader department, especially higher-ups, with the goal of expanding my position in my department or transferring to a role of greater responsibility in a different department; 3) discuss my extra responsibilities at external job interviews, making it clear that I fulfilled the management role regardless of what my actual title and pay was.

      At no time would I badmouth my boss in any way or even imply anything negative. At no time would I appear ungrateful. If promotion is what I want, then acting like I hate doing the tasks inherent to the position I want would not look good.

      Basically, I would just see this for an opportunity for a power grab. If done well, then his status will erode while yours increases. And not through any unethical action on your part–you’re not sabotaging him, you’re stepping up to help the company. Everyone will treat you as the point person for all kinds of things, which will lead to greater responsibility in decision making, and eventually the company will have no choice but to reward you or lose a star player.

      One other thing I’d do that I forgot to mention, is be as proactive as I could in making *decisions* for the big-picture things. I wouldn’t countermand him, or undermine him in any way, but if you think you can make decisions about things without him objecting, I’d do that. I’d push it as far as I could. If there was any ambiguity, then I’d fall back on plausible deniability of, “well, I thought you wanted me to handle that since you didn’t take action.” And then I’d dial it back if necessary.

      1. zora.dee*

        Basically, I would just see this for an opportunity for a power grab.

        So Machiavellian and brilliant. I bow to you. Would you give lessons in aggressive self-interest skills?? I think I need it ;o)

  51. Karo*

    For anyone that needs another “don’t be friends with your reports” caution story:

    My boss used to be my peer. We are certainly not as close as we used to be, but he is still probably more friendly with his direct reports than Alison would approve of. He recently had to have a talk with another employee that also used to be his peer about her attitude and she is not taking it well. I’m proud of him for speaking to her – it was well overdue – but she seems to feel personally betrayed by it [and I only know what happened because she told me; he hasn’t said anything].

    So, even if you’re sure that you can handle being friends with your employees and still having a managerial relationship – can your employees handle it too?

    1. Drew*

      I’m in much the same boat and I told my boss, “Don’t shy away from giving me feedback because you’re afraid of hurting my feelings — I need you to be my boss first and friend second if we’re going to work together effectively.” Luckily, we have a really informal office culture in the first place, so this hasn’t caused too many problems.

  52. anonymoose*

    I have a job interview tomorrow and was wondering about how to address the question of why I want to leave my current job (or a similar question). I’m planning on saying something along the lines of how the org I’m interviewing with is more in line of what I want to do for my career and how my current office culture/boss’ management style isn’t a good fit, but I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how to address this. Mainly asking because I’ve only been in my current job for about 10 months (it’s my first full time job out of college) but my boss is terrible and I hate everything about my job, and I’m at the point where I need to leave so it doesn’t affect my work ethic/health any further.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t have advice here, being in something of the same boat.
      I’ve been in my job just over 2 years, but recently got a NewBoss and it’s just not working out. Under OldBoss I felt valued and rewarded and trusted. Under NewBoss, the vibe is suspicion, micromanaging, and conflict. Plus, NewBoss is trying to bring in his own crew, by throwing me under the bus.

      How to explain this? I don’t hate my job, but people don’t leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.
      I recently had an interview, and I don’t think I answered very well using a reason of finding a closer commute (true!) and also that my job duties had changed from what was originally intended (but I think they sensed it being a management issue).

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I mean, if only we could just tell the truth!
        “I love what I do, but my new manager and I are not a good fit style-wise, so I am searching for other opportunities.”

    2. Anon for this one*

      If NewJob is different enough from OldJob, you can say “I wasn’t actually looking, but I happened across NewJob and it’s something I’m so interested in that I decided I couldn’t pass it by.” (Assuming it was advertised, of course.) You don’t really need to mention being dissatisfied with OldJob.

      1. anonymoose*

        Duties of new job will be similar to old job, but the organization is different in its mission/what it does (current job is with policy based org, new job is nonprofit that does more social work stuff). I loved my internship which was helping others/case work, so new org is more similar to that. I’m very seriously now considering going to grad school for social work, so new org aligns with that more. Most of my complaints are with my boss and how the org is structured (i interact with almost no one, no real collaboration with my one coworker, and I’ve been taking on duties for another job in the office because it’s taken my boss the entire time I’ve been here to hire someone for that position so my main reasons for leaving are based on that. I could probably get away with just saying I’m looking to change the field I’m in to avoid saying I’m dissatisfied with my current job if that’s a no go for interviewers.

  53. Dzhymm*

    I wasn’t sure which free-for-all thread this should go into, because it mixes both work-related and family stuff. It also happened many many years ago, but for amusement’s sake let’s tell it in the first person present tense. Here goes:

    My employer is operating their business out of their home, in violation of local zoning regulations. It’s a direct mail business, and it includes machinery for folding inserts and addressing and stuffing envelopes — all of which is very much Not Allowed in a residential district.

    I have been sworn to secrecy on this point, and have been ordered not to tell ANYONE about it. Not friends, not relatives, nothing. The owners are paranoid that somehow word will get out and get back to the town officials and they’ll be shut down.

    Oh, and I’m seven years old, and my employers are my parents. So they’re also paranoid about that whole child-labor-legality thing (yes, I’m sometimes operating the machinery).

    Needless to say, this whole arrangement wreaks havoc on my social life. The business soaks up nearly all of our time and energy which I could instead be using to run and play with my friends like a normal kid. It also creates a whole huge swath of my life that I can’t talk about with anybody.
    “What did you do this weekend?”
    “…”

    I’m so frustrated that I’m sometimes tempted to drop a dime and spill the beans. After all, ironically enough, my parents are authoritarian law-and-order types: when other people get in trouble, Dad’s attitude is “Good, he had it coming. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime”.

    So: How would you handle this in my situation?

    1. Manders*

      Oof, the terrible thing about this situation is that your parents chose to exploit a kind who was completely dependent on them. I’m not sure there was a good way to resolve this without running the risk of making your home life worse or being taken away from your family.

      I don’t think you can blame yourself for not handling the situation “right,” because you were just a kid in a really tough situation.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I totally would have blabbed to someone. Not on-purpose or to get them in trouble or to get out of work (!!! work! machinery!? Seven yrs old?!) but because I am seven and an idiot and I do this crazy machine stuff that could be a good story and get me attention for a few minutes.

      Side note: In kindergarten, I also told my class I was allergic to pizza (which I love and not allergic to) and then didn’t eat pizza that whole school year because I got a lot of attention from my classmates for it.

      Thank goodness I mellowed out.

    3. Collie*

      Me personally as a child and afraid of authority as I was, I’d keep my mouth shut.

      But that’s not the “right” answer to this. The right answer is to tell and adult you trust, who can then go to the appropriate people. I don’t know much about child abuse laws, but this must be at least borderline. And if Dad’s attitude is “Good, he had it coming. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime,” then he should be perfectly understanding when he gets caught and has to “do the time.”

      1. Dzhymm*

        Basically I dropped a dime where it would do little good except to make me feel better. I kept my mouth shut until about two weeks ago, which was 47 years after the fact. My parents are both deceased now, and I’m sure any relevant statutes of limitations expired, so I made a public facebook post naming my parents and the address of the house and stating for the record that they operated a business there and employed child labor illegally. Not much response except for one niece who took me to task for taking it public. Kids these days don’t even respect their elders anymore (grumble, growl, get off my lawn)

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          You know, since you are family, I am not certain child labor laws apply. I know kids are allowed to work in family owned stores legally.

          But good for you for getting it off your chest!

          1. Dzhymm*

            Family or no, operating machinery is a no-no. But by age 8 I was keeping multiple Heidelberg letterpresses humming…

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I am with you on this one. If your parents did not want it blabbed all over what they were doing then they should not have been doing it. Period.

          Here’s the deal, if we are doing something illegal/unethical it is foolish to think that no one would ever blab about it. Someone will rat us out and it’s only a matter of time. Wait for your niece to get some more life experience under her belt and see if she changes her stance.

          In reply to her, I would want to talk about how no one, no matter what the relationship is, should ever be forced to cover up another person’s illegal/unethical behavior. The fact that an adult thinks they can do this to a child, is just so outrageous.

          I am figuring that you are about 54, so we are close in age. The 60s was a different era and a lot of the protections for children that we have now were not in place back then. I can remember my friends at school talking about being beaten with belts and hair brushes. Nothing was done. When I was very little my parents took me to a doctor because I got bruises where anyone held me. The doctor said, “Stop beating her and the bruises will clear up.” I am here to say, my parents did not beat me. And the doctor did nothing to report my parents even though he clearly believed they were beating me. Again, nothing was done.

          I had random things come up, so my experiences were different and I could handle it differently. My mother used to make me light the pilot light on the gas stove. I was four. I had to stand on tip toe to even SEE the pilot light. I could barely reach it.I have stopped being afraid of matches long ago, but I still hate, hate, hate gas stoves. Unwittingly, i solved my dilemma. The deal was I had to light the stove or spend the rest of the day in my room. One day I took the latter option and I did not light the stove. It was not long after that my father bought a new stove. It was electric. It took me years to figure out that I should have said no sooner. But this a very different setting than what you are talking about.
          I ended up being a sometimes contrary and difficult kid because of stories like this one. I like myself better now, but I also know that I did not have a lot of choices back then. Please hold on to that thought. You made the best choices you knew how for that time frame. And because of this experience you know to extract yourself from certain types of problems, ASAP.

    5. BobcatBrah*

      What good is having kids if not free labor?

      Sweeping the floor, mowing the lawn, weeding the garden, taking out the trash, doing laundry, stuffing direct mail envelopes.

      No big deal.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Tasks should be age appropriate.
        Tasks should have close adult supervision.
        Hours worked per day should be limited and number of days per week should be limited.

        Since this is a child’s first view of the world of work, parents should be showing lessons about ethics, safety, legal compliance and so on.

        It sounds to me like OP was working in a pressure cooker. It’s too much responsibility to ask a child to cover up adult lies. A child has no clue what will happen if the parent gets caught. And it sounds like OP had to work longer hours than s/he could physically do given the age.

        A family member said to me, “The whole reason you have kids is to get them to your work for you.” I would describe the relationship this family member had with his kids as “superficial”. The adult children put in obligatory face time with the parent when they had to and that time was measured down to the second.

        A kid will do anything to please a parent. So the parent can think of their kid as a workhorse. This goes well until the kid reaches adulthood. From what I have seen the kid leaves the nest and never really returns.

      2. N.J.*

        Those are chores and opportunities to teach responsibility and are part of the household tasks that keep a family running. Not performing work that a paid employee should be doing, running heavy machinery at the age of seven! My niece is seven and she still has trouble tying her shoes, much less running a press. I hope you are being facetious, because if you aren’t joking with this response I have no words, no words!

  54. stelmselms*

    My husband recently interviewed for two positions – one with his current employer and one with an organization out-of-state. The out-of-state job would have been amazing, but the cost of living there is quite high, we have school-age kids and for various reasons decided to stay put in our town so he accepted the new position with his current employer. When he let the out-of-state organization know he was declining the position, they were very disappointed and told him if he ever wanted to work there, they would make it happen. What are some ways to keep that door open/maintain contact in case we/he decides he would like to work for them in the future. He’s already connected with the different individuals on LinkedIn, but that doesn’t seem like much.

      1. stelmselms*

        I don’t think he will be attending any conferences, but connecting on social media might be a great way to stay connected without it seeming planned/forced.

  55. Tris Prior*

    Boyfriend has some interviews coming up. His current job is awful in many ways, but one thing that he really hates is how, in his words, “they treat us like 5-year-olds.” Like, having to lock away their phones because “you’ll just play with it all day otherwise,” and having their desks inspected regularly for neatness. I literally cannot reach him in an emergency because he would get in trouble, if not fired, for taking a personal call or reading a text. And, well, not exactly having their bathroom breaks monitored, but if a boss feels that you’ve spent too much time in the bathroom, you’ll be paged over the intercom to “please return to your desk.”

    This is companywide; everyone is treated this way regardless of performance or longevity with the company.

    What questions can he ask in interviews to screen for whether a company treats its employees like grownups who can be trusted? I tend to be better at wording things than he is, so I’m trying to help, but I’m coming up short on a non-antagonistic way to ask about this. The “describe your corporate culture” and “what’s your management style” questions seem not quite specific enough (especially because at his company this has nothing to do with his manager; the entire company is like this.) And you can’t really ask “do I have to keep my phone locked away and never ever take a personal call” without sounding like a slacker….

    1. Tegdirb*

      I worked somewhere like that! Do they also prohibit music and how many “personal items” you can have on your desk? It might be the same place.

      I’d ask for a walk through the office, especially where he will be working. He may have to wait until the second interview/they make an offer though.

      1. Tris Prior*

        He actually JUST got the OK to wear headphones. In one ear. At a reasonable volume. (insert “Office Space” mumbling here)

    2. Manders*

      That’s so far from normal that I seriously doubt he’s going to end up in the same situation again.

      Can he ask to take a look at the space where he’d be working? That might give him a better sense of office culture. He might also be able to ask some questions about whether his future boss prefers an employee who can work independently and how management works with employees day-to-day.

      (Also: the cell phone rule is SUPER WEIRD if he doesn’t work with confidential information, but if he’s in a field where he has access to customer credit card info, social security numbers, or medical records, that may be a security standard he’ll have to live with.)

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        I agree, this is way beyond the pale, and I think asking too specifically about it would come off as weird. Getting a more general sense about the culture is a good thing, of course, but I think if you focus too much on screening for something that’s a real outlier you risk coming across badly.

        As a side note, the closest I’ve gotten to an environment like that was one project where we had to leave our phones at the door and the client installed webcams to watch our work. To be fair, we were contract workers and there was some defcon levels of security going on with that particular issue, so I kind of get it. Thankfully it was a short project.

      2. Tris Prior*

        That’s a good idea.

        He does not work with confidential info. The phone rule is literally because “if employees have it out and accessible then they’ll just play with it and be texting all day long.” To be fair, he does have a couple co-workers like that, who hide their phones in their laps. But then why not address THOSE employees rather than punishing everyone?

        I think being in a company like this for as long as he has will mess with your brain to the point that you start thinking, “oh god, what if I get a new job and they do this to me too?”

    3. Yetanotherjennifer*

      And wouldn’t it be nice if companies that did that would answer the right questions honestly so you could screen for that sort of thing? Not work related, but the state where we used to live had bad schools and our town had some fairly draconian punishments. When we were looking for a school in our new state I learned not to ask too many pointed questions about discipline because I came off as the crazy one.

    4. Garland Not Andrews*

      The ONLY place I have ever seen that phone rule is either when working in a situation where it would hurt the process or put someone in danger (clean room or factory with dangerous equipment/chemicals) or where super high security clearances are needed.
      I think the walkthrough of the office or other work area is a good idea.

    5. Marisol*

      I don’t have exact phrasing in mind, but something like, do employees tend to work independently…how much freedom is allowed regarding xyz…can employees be trusted to manage their own time without being monitored…

      Is it really a problem to say you “once had a job” where phones had to be locked up, etc. without specifically naming the company, and that you were looking for a company that…trusted their employees to have the good judgement not to need such rules? I mean, his objection is understandable, and the reason he doesn’t want that level of monitoring is because he IS a responsible, hard-working adult. So saying something like that might make a favorable impression, no?

      again, no precise suggestions but maybe that little bit of brainstorming will have a useful nugget in there.

      1. Tris Prior*

        I like the idea of “trusted to manage one’s own time.” I’ll play around with wording in that vein. Thanks!

        1. Marisol*

          “I take my work very seriously and am responsible. I once worked at a company where they [made us lock our phones, etc.] and I felt I wasn’t being treated like an adult and that was quite demoralizing. I promised myself I wouldn’t get into another situation like that again. What is your company’s stance regarding [time management. etc…?]”

  56. Nicole J.*

    Any tips on how to deal with an unfire-able but terrible employee when you are supposed to be in charge of them? It’s a difficult situation – the current owners of the small business I work for have brought in a chap, let’s call him Ramsay, to learn the business, with the intention of selling out to him at the end of this year. He had worked for the company previously and I knew it wouldn’t be a great experience for me running it. It’s put me in a horrible position as Ramsay is just not reliable work-wise in various ways – yet I’m not able to say anything other than the mildest reproof, as the owners don’t want to jeopardise the sale. Every criticism and suggestion is met with huffiness and no improvement at all, anyway, so I just go along and pick up/plan out any issues. It just creates extra work and stress for me, and it’s a stressy business anyway (events). I plan to leave before he takes over but there’s at least two months to go, and it’s got to the point where I don’t even want to be in the same building as him. So, I’m looking for some advice on making it through the next few weeks!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Wow! and Ramsay is actually going to own this business? Sounds like he will run it into the ground.
      Get out. Start looking and interviewing now.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. Start interviewing and have a new job in place before Ramsay takes over. For sake of old owners, hope they sell, get their money, and get out too. As MissDisplaced said, sounds like Ramsay can ruin this business fast.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Agreed, you need to get out. But in the meantime, consider him like an inept intern that’s the son of the owner — give him little of consequence to do, nothing that can’t be redone, or even stuff that you’re doing in parallel, and don’t use his work. That last one is probably easier than fixing his work. Just act as if it’s all on you, because it is. (Until you get out , and we’ll be rooting for you!)

    3. Chriama*

      Just focus on the fact that you won’t be there long. Clean up after him quietly, document everything you can, and imagine him sitting in the office with his pompous attitude while everything is in flames.

    4. neverjaunty*

      In addition to getting out – you might want to have a serious sit-down with the owners to lay out the situation (and maybe follow up with email). “I understand that you want to avoid upsetting Ramsay and make sure that the sale goes through. In light of that, I’m going to be unable to supervise his work or try and correct his mistakes. If there’s a serious issue that needs to be handled immediately, I’ll forward it to you so that you can handle it appropriately.”

      There’s really no other way to deal with being told to manage without authority other than to say “no, YOU manage.”

  57. Horse Lover*

    Can I just say I hate Fridays like today. My office is closing 2 hours early. I probably should’ve taken today off because I CANNOT FOCUS ON ANYTHING >.<

    My mind has been clock watching, planning labor day weekend activities/which sales to hit, and basically doing anything but pay attention to work.

    It is a real struggle on these days. Ugh.

    End vent.

    1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

      On days like that I sometimes do the more drudgey work to get it out of the way. I have a giant data entry thing open right now.

      1. Horse Lover*

        I’ve tried. I’ve also tried taking practice exams for a class I’m in from the company. It’s still not time to go and I just wanna beat my head against the desk.

        Wasn’t there a gif of that somewhere? A rabbit beating it’s head into a wall….??

    2. SophieChotek*

      I feel that way too. I am hoping we close early; generally manager sends email around 2pm to close up early…I hope he does — but cannot count on it.

    3. Sinus pressure*

      I was so excited about today because NO MEETINGS GET LOTS DONE but see my name. Can’t focus because I need to take a drill to my head before my sinuses explode out of my eyeballs. :-(

  58. literateliz*

    References when leaving a long-term job: I’ve been at my first “real” post-grad job for 4 years (before this I did two internships and taught English abroad). I don’t plan on leaving any time soon, so this isn’t a pressing question, but I sometimes idly wonder who I would user as references if I did ever decide to apply for another job. I’m on good terms with two bosses from one internship, but it feels weird to have all my references be from internships when I’m no longer entry-level (and both from the same internship, no less; I’ve kinda lost touch with the people from the other one). I don’t feel like I could ask coworkers from my current job (it seems like such a big, vulnerable ask!), and although I do some freelance work I don’t think my clients would be great references (they send me stuff and I edit it, but weirdly my contacts there don’t seem to be editors and I’m not sure they could speak to my work). Should I find other outside pursuits (freelance or volunteer work) that might produce people better able to act as references? Get closer with my coworkers? What kind of references would an employer expect of someone who’s been in their first job for 5-10 years?

    1. Delyssia*

      Bosses and internal clients who have left the company are my major source of references. I’ve been at my current job for 8 years, and I have two direct managers who have left in that time, as well as several internal clients who have left the company (in my case, my internal clients can more directly assess my actual work than my managers, so they’re good references).

      1. literateliz*

        Oh, duh! This is why I ask questions here – I was thinking to myself “I’m just hoping for a perfect solution when there probably is none” and yet lo and behold :) Brilliant, thank you!

  59. Sad (Jerk) employee*

    Thank you to everyone who commented on my last post. I feel very touched with your comments and I find all of them useful! Thank you so much!

    https://www.askamanager.org/2016/08/open-thread-august-26-27-2016.html#comment-1186952

    I want to give you an update that I had gone to my first meeting with the psychologist (the day off before I started work). I hope it can be the first step to something good. The next meeting will be next year because I cannot take any day off when I am so new to the job.

    I had started my new job and everybody is so nice! I feel so happy. As mentioned, I got reunited with my ex-colleagues in the new company (we are teammates again, under the same boss, same job scope, and the same position). What makes me feel so sad is that they are giving me the cold shoulder. I have never yelled or hurt them and I have always thought I have a neutral relationship with them. I was hoping to have a friendly relationship with them. However, I can certainly feel that they don’t like me much and it can potentially make thing very awkward. To make things worse, I have more ex-colleagues jumping into my new company in the near future! (my industry is extremely niche and everybody pretty much know each other). These incoming ex-colleagues are also giving me the cold shoulder because they have been ignoring my attempts to socialize or be friendly with them. I feel so sad about the possibility of getting ostracized in my new workplace eventually. Part of the reason I left my last job was because I couldn’t stand the ostracization….. What should I do? Brush it off?

    Also, this company highly values interpersonal relationship and expects everybody to be civil with each other. They won’t be happy with my history of bad behavior and yelling. I am concerned that someone will tell my new boss about my past bad behavior! How badly will past bad reputation affect somebody in a new workplace?

    1. Temperance*

      The best way to overcome your past bad reputation for screaming at your colleagues and being difficult to work with is by not doing those things. Be pleasant and cordial, and people will come around. Don’t try to force things right now. Even if you didn’t scream at these particular people, they saw you doing that and mentally filed it.

      If I had a former colleague who had a history of bad behavior, that I personally experienced or witnessed, I probably would give my boss as well as friends a heads up.

      1. Sad (Jerk) employee*

        Thank you for the comments! I regret my past behavior and would like to turn a new leaf. Now, assuming that my new boss or new colleagues receive a tip-off about my past and decided to question me about it, what should I do? I am thinking of humbly admitting that I had crossed the line and behaved irrationally in the past for the sake of completing an objective. I will say that I regret my past actions and am currently taking steps to rectify it.

        I am not sure how would a manager feel upon hearing this, because I have no experience of being a manager myself.

        1. Natalie*

          ” for the sake of completing an objective.”

          Leave this part off – it sounds like a justification. Stick to “yes, I have behaved badly in the past and I regret it. I’ve been working on it so it doesn’t happen again.”

        2. neverjaunty*

          If I were managing an employee with that reputation, the thing I’d want to hear is exactly what you say – an unapologetic acknowledgement that yes, this was a problem, and the employee understands it’s a problem, and they’ve committed to making changes so that it won’t be an issue going forward. That would give me confidence that you had, in fact, turned over a new leaf.

        3. Temperance*

          I wouldn’t use your phrasing – to me, that would sound like “this is how I act when other people don’t do what I want”. I would just say that you are ashamed of how you acted in the past, and that you’re working on it.

          I agree with the others regarding socializing with your coworkers. Try showing them that you’ve turned over a new leaf and you want to do a good job as your priority. I’m very much trying to be gentle, but it’s entirely possible that at least some of these people are a little afraid of you or they may expect you to blow your top at any moment. I personally hate being yelled at, and when people yell, I shut down and then avoid them.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think you need to take it slow, be patient with your ex-colleagues, and really build up a new reputation as someone civil and friendly and reliable. It makes sense that former colleagues might be cold around you for a while (maybe a long while) and I think the only way to change that is to prove to them that you’ve changed. Assuming that you keep your head down and continue to build that reputation, I’m not sure you need to worry too much about someone going to your new boss with your old behavior, but if they do, you should be able to explain to your boss that you recognize it was inappropriate and have taken past criticism to heart. Ideally, your new reputation should speak for itself. Good luck!

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Also, you said that your old reputation was “good worker, bad attitude” and here you said that you’re worried about being ostracized again. Is it possible that the two things were feeding each other – ie. you were angry because you were ostracized, and the angrier you got, the more people avoided you? It might be a good idea to shift your goals away from “be friendly/socialize with my coworkers” to “build a reputation as a good worker with a good attitude.” It might take time for people to accept that change and it would stink if your good work was undercut by your frustration that people aren’t coming around.

    3. Aurion*

      Your reputation precedes you, so even if you’ve never blown up at these particular colleagues, it makes sense that they’re wary around you. I would be. I would warn my new boss about your old reputation were I in their place. I don’t think you can avoid that.

      The only way out is through. Be extremely pleasant to everyone whether or not they’ve worked with you before, and prove to them that you won’t lose your temper at anyone no matter the circumstance. People who have never seen the previous you will probably be warmer, but even those who had known the previous you may eventually turn around.

    4. Chriama*

      I don’t think you can do anything about them hearing about your previous bad attitude so your focus should be on proving it to be untrue of you currently. Your bosses will probably start watching you more closely and might view minor conflicts from you more negatively than they would from someone else because they’re seeing it through the lens of your previous history. So you need to be *better* than other people, and recognize that you won’t get as many free passes as others would.

      Secondly, I agree with MegaMoose, Esq. that your first goal should be building a reputation as a good worker with a good attitude rather than being able to socialize with your coworkers. I would not socially engage with someone who had previously yelled, scolded and berated me unless I saw a *clear* and *sustained* difference in their attitude plus a personal apology. Even when they’re willing to work with you professionally it will take more time before they’re willing to let you back in their social circle and you really need to be ok with that. Be pleasant, but don’t force your way into friendliness with people who don’t want it and have reason to be cautious around you.

      Finally, I’m also wondering what people think about offering an apology. I think it might be premature at this point – I wouldn’t believe it unless I saw real change, especially if you had a history of apologizing but then having outbursts again. On the other hand, you’re in a new job and making an effort to change, and it might be worth it to speak pre-emptively to people and say something like “I know I’ve been badly behaved in the past. I wanted to apologize to you and let you know that I’m looking forward to working with you and showing you a better side of myself.” Then if you continue to be pleasant but don’t try to get too close (as in, understand that everything isn’t resolved with just an apology), they’ll hopefully be willing to be professional with you instead of totally freezing you out.

      1. catsAreCool*

        I would also avoid “someone who had previously yelled, scolded and berated” other people, figuring that I might get that treatment if I’m around that person. It’s going to take time and a lot of patience and dedication to your new path before people who knew you then feel safe around you.

    5. Dynamic Beige*

      I have never yelled or hurt them and I have always thought I have a neutral relationship with them.

      But you yelled at other people and they saw/heard you do that. So of course they don’t want to be treated that way and they give you a wide berth. If you had a manager who would hit people who did something wrong, would you try your hardest to avoid that person? Of course you would! They haven’t forgotten, and are unlikely to forget it for a long time. Have you ever heard the phrase: “Trust takes years to build, seconds to break, and forever to repair.” That’s where you are.

      Aside from the psychologist (and congrats on that!), there are tons of resources online, books that you can get to work on your anger issues. It sounds like this may not be an anger issue, but a stress issue. When you’re under a lot of stress, you blow your stack — and that’s not cool.

      Also, you should look into developing a social life outside of work. It’s all well and good that the company wants everyone to get along, and at the very least you should all be polite and civil to each other. But, you can’t live at work. Having friends and activities and just stuff you do outside of work will help you not only to manage your emotions, but also your expectations of the people around you (because you can’t be friends with everyone). If your job is stressful, then something outside of your job that helps you relieve stress will help you overall. Running, martial arts, learning to box, axe-throwing, riding bikes off road, there’s got to be something. Or go the other way, Tai-chi/yoga, walking in parks/gardens, meditation, photography.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Everyone here has covered a lot of great points.

      One thing that I would like to say is that from what I have seen people who fear their colleagues do not like them, have not taken the time to figure out if they themselves actually like these people.

      The short answer is “decide that you like these people no matter what”. See, when we decide we like people, it shows in the way we interact with them. It shows in our thoughtful gestures towards others. Just decide that you like them, no matter what they think of you. Give it time. Let nature do its work.

      You are letting go of a part of you, that angry person who lives in side your mind. The surprise is that you will find other parts of you that are waaaay bigger than that angry person could ever hope to be. It’s a process. As you find these new parts to yourself, you will find your concern about your cohorts’ feelings about you dwindling down. It will be less of a deal.

  60. Alley Don't Read This*

    I FINALLY got an offer for this place I’ve been trying to move up in — it’s PT and I applied with the understanding from others that it was possible the job would become FT or I could keep my current PT job in that system (which works more like an on-call system where I’m free to accept or reject shifts as they’re offered) to build an almost-FT schedule without being deemed FT on paper. They’re offering it at PT now, and the duties of the job are really things I’m interested in, but no one has given me any numbers yet as far as salary goes (the range was listed but I’ve been told it’ll depend on my pay history with them — no idea when I’ll get this information and I have to make a decision by early next week).

    I’m desperate to get out of my current FT (I have one FT and two PTs, one is just 4 hrs/week and the other is the on-call situation), but I’m terrified of accepting this PT job when there’s no guarantee of almost-40 hours/week and the status isn’t FT on paper (which I need for the PSLF program). All of this seems silly to me because if I’m able to do 20 hours for the permanent job and tack on another 19 for the on-call job, why not just make it FT when the need is clearly there and the pay rate/hour is the same? (Apparently this has something to do with the type of benefits and the cost to the agency of calling the job FT — ughhh, bureaucracy!)

    I talked to someone in the system and she indicated if I talked with one of the directors (Jenn) and got in good with her, Jenn might be able to bend the rules for me and make this FT. Jenn was in the second round of interviews (which lasted five minutes and was described more as a conversation) and seemed to like me enough but I can’t imagine a basically-cold email about this would go over well. I could also talk to the supervising manager (Holly) about this when I call Tuesday to give my answer, but I’m fairly certain she won’t escalate the request/question to Jenn and I’ll still have to decline. The only way around this I see is being more direct and asking if Holly thought Jenn might be able to swing something to make it work. I’d much rather do this all via email but it’ll have to be by phone.

    I really want this job. I do. I applied hoping that either it would be FT or I’d be somehow otherwise able to make it work with on-call hours, but my student loans repayment begins in November and I’ll have to buy a car to maintain this job, and I just don’t see how it can work when there isn’t a guarantee of those hours and my benefits will be cut from what they currently are. I’m hoping no one feels I applied in bad faith, because I really do want to try to make this work. I’m heartbroken because I really also want out of my current job which I’m pretty sure is a big reason my hair is literally falling out.

    On the one hand, I feel like you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take so I should ask about FT (but who?). On the other hand, I don’t want to sully my reputation in the system because (a) I’d still be working for them and (b) I’d hope they’d consider me for something else FT in the future. At this point, I’m leaning toward just declining and saying that I really did want to make it work, but just don’t see how I can and I hope that they’ll keep me in mind for things that come up in the future. Does anyone have different advice? Something I’m not considering? TIA

  61. bassclefchick*

    Well, I start a new job on Tuesday. wish I could be excited, but that last job messed with my head. Don’t want a self fulfilling prophecy, but I sure hope I make it out of the probationary period this time.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “I will give them the same break they give me. I want them to hope I am a good employee. So I will do similar, I will hope they are good employer.”

      Too long for a chant, I know. Maybe you can go with, “I want them to trust me, so I will trust them to have adult-like behavior.”

  62. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    So yesterday (or the day before – this week is all hazy since I quit smoking on Monday and have withdrawal brain) there was some really interesting discussion in one of the morning threads about what it means when a job posting asks for “polish.” A number of posters felt that polish is often cover for discrimination based on race or appearance. Then yesterday I read an interview with a recruiter talking about some of those exact biases, right now to the use of “polished” as a criteria. There’s some fascinating data in the article too. Link in follow-up. Did anyone else read this?

    2. Manders*

      That’s very interesting! I was thinking this week about that discussion and about which fictional characters I’d consider “polished.” My first thought was Sue from Veep–she’s unflappable in any situation, is always on top of everything, and dresses nicely but not on trend. But she is a black woman with straightened hair, so maybe I do have an unconscious bias about her appearance.

      I also had trouble thinking of a male character I’d describe as “polished” as opposed to, say, competent or professional.

    3. Drew*

      Best of luck with quitting smoking. I’ve never smoked but I’ve had plenty of friends who did (and do); I know trying to quit is really really really hard for most people. Self-care in all other areas is key.

  63. Gobbledygook*

    After several months of looking, I received and accepted a job offer yesterday! It’s in the industry I want to work in and in the city/state I want to move to. It feels so surreal! Thanks AAM, I couldn’t do it without your help! :)

  64. Jadelyn*

    I posted a couple weeks ago about my team reorganizing and bringing in a senior HRIS analyst who would be taking most of my HRIS responsibilities (which was my favorite part of the job). Well, the analyst started this week, and she’s been lovely – in my first email to her after our meet-n-greet (she works remotely so we were on videoconference) on Monday I mentioned that I’m very interested in HRIS and am looking forward to working with her and maybe getting to learn more about it. She didn’t respond directly to that part of my email at the time, which kinda hurt.

    But, since then she’s been super great about including me in discussions about proposed system changes, has offered to screenshare on a couple of HRIS-related webinars she’s registered for closer to the end of the year so I can kind of “eavesdrop” on the training, and this morning emailed me about an HRIS conference next year asking if I’d be interested in going! I am feeling MUCH better about this, and much less like I need to look elsewhere if I want to grow my skills in that area.

    1. overeducated*

      I’m so glad it sounds like she may be on your side and willing to help you go in that direction! Hope doors continue to open for you.

    2. zora.dee*

      Yay!!! Good job on sticking up for yourself and politely stating what you wanted! And it paid off!! that’s awesome, I’ll take some inspiration from you and give it a shot, too. Congrats!

  65. Andrea*

    How old is too old to go back to school?

    I’m starting a Masters degree soon (it won’t be a career change, I’ll be working to get qualification I need to move into a specialised area of my industry), but I’ve been in the work force for a while now and have recently entered my 30s. When I think of tertiary education I still picture young’uns all bright-eyed and carefree, and I’m worried I’ll feel out of place.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I definitely don’t think you’re too old. I went to law school with several people in their early to mid thirties (I was in my mid to late 20s) and the consensus was that slightly older students brought a lot of great perspective to classes and employers generally liked seeing the deeper resume. Those were career change situations, of course, but I’ve got to think when it’s a specialization within your industry, the age thing would be even less of an issue.

    3. MacGirl*

      You are NEVER too old to continue your education. There are people who are in their late 30s, 40s, and older who go back to school to get degrees at all levels. I saw an article on a 90-year-old woman who earned her master’s in psychology in 2010. So go for it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I read an article that kind of ticked me off. It claimed that profs don’t like senior citizens in their class rooms because it is a waste of their time to teach someone who will never use the course for anything practical.

        I say, if anyone wants more education then they should go get it, regardless of age.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Never too old!
      After about 15+ years I finished my Bachelors in 2010.
      I went right on to my Masters and was 46 when I completed it. And I certainly wasn’t the oldest one in my graduate classes either. Actually, your professors will LOVE it having varied ages and backgrounds. It makes for better and more lively class discussions.

    5. Rat Racer*

      When I entered my grad school program there was a range of ages: the youngest person was 22 and fresh out of undergrad, the oldest was 38. I think the age range depends on the program, but I don’t think you should let your age stop you from pursuing your goals! Unless you’re applying to medical school, I bet you won’t be the oldest person in your program. I have a friend who entered law school when he was 39. People do it all the time.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Same, although the oldest person in my cohort was 45. The younger people had more trouble because the program was highly practical and they didn’t have any real-life experience to draw from.

        I also know someone who went to med school in her 40s!

    6. Oldie*

      I started my masters at age 48. I SO enjoyed the intellectual stimulation of the coursework, though studying 30 hours a week and working 30 hours a week was tough! It was worth it – a lot of doors have opened for me since I completed it… better job, more responsibility and way more pay. There were others my age in the program. You might be surprised at the mix!

    7. Sinus pressure*

      I graduated from my masters program at 38. I was definitely not the oldest student in the program, either. I joke that I want to get my PhD when I retire.

    8. Emac*

      Oh god, I hope just barely 30 isn’t too old for grad school. I’m in my early 40’s and planning to go back in the next year or so!

    9. migrant worker*

      I did my masters around ages 29-31 (it was part time). I believe the average age for the full time programme was 28, and 35 for the part-time. Do you know yours?

    10. periwinkle*

      44: bachelors degree
      47: masters degree, leading to a successful career change
      51: current age, working part-time on a doctorate that I started last year

      If you want to go back to school, go back to school. “Bright-eyed and carefree” is not nearly as useful for graduate-level work as “experienced and working to a specific goal.”

    11. Red*

      No such thing. The time will pass. Eventually you’ll be 30, 40, 50, 60. Do you want to be that age with your masters or not?

    12. Sybil Fawlty*

      95 may be too old (or maybe not). I don’t think you should let your age stop you. I graduated at 32, and have a friend who just finished his Phd in his late 50s.

      Just keep your sense of humor, and ignore all their nonsense. I had a few study groups over to my house, they liked it that I had actual furniture and good food and drinks. And they thought my kids were adorable.

      Good luck!

    13. Drew*

      My dad got an MBA and PhD in his 50s and switched careers afterward, retiring at 69.

      You are definitely not too old.

    14. Yetanotherjennifer*

      My husband went back to school for graduate degrees (masters and Mba) in his 40s. He stood out partly because of the age difference (although there were other older students) but also because he’s that sort of a guy. Everyone in the 80 person Mba program knew his name after day one of orientation. He was also the only student in the masters program married with a mortgage and school-aged child, which lead to some cultural differences but nothing that got in the way of the degree.

      Nearly 30 really isn’t that much older than college students. You’ll be set apart because you have much more job experience and professors will appreciate your different point of view. Be careful to not limit your socialization to students like you.

      Also, student health insurance can really suck for older adults. Ours was great so long as you were a stereotypical college student: 18-24, healthy, covered on your parent’s plan, single, childless, and able to use the student health services on campus. And this was at a state university. Other situations like ours were covered but it clearly was designed to be a secondary plan for healthy kids. My husband took a break for a year to be able to get COBRA coverage while he completed the MBA.

      1. Yetanotherjennifer*

        Sorry, he took a break from graduate school to get a job for a year so we could use COBRA coverage when he went back for the MBA.

    16. Fellow Sufferer*

      Never too old. I recently met a gentlemen in his late 50s that just went back to school for a second bachelor’s as he wants to change careers.

    17. Mimmy*

      I absolutely agree that you’re never too old to go back to school, and this thread is proof! I got my MSW in my 30s and just completed a graduate certificate in disability studies–and I’m almost 43. Seeing some people here receiving Masters and PhD’s in their 40s and 50s is reassuring to me because now I know it is never too late. I’ve seen people of all ages in all of my programs over the years.

      So if you’re just turning 30, I’d say you are by no means “too old” :)

    19. SongBird*

      I just finished getting my first college degrees, one in Biochemistry and one in Forensic Biology. I’m 46. It was a bit odd, as I was (literally) old enough to be the mother of many of my classmates, but I found it to be very interesting and rewarding. I was able to focus and study (and read the syllabi ahead of time!) much more steadily than many of my cohort, and at no point was my age an issue.

      Well, other than the occasional time when I’d hear a co-student say something and realize that WOW, I was/am old. It almost always ended in laughter on all sides.

    20. vpc*

      Never!

      My grandmother got her bachelor’s when she was 78. She’d always loved school and learning, but life as a farm wife in the Depression and then raising kids post-WWII didn’t give her the opportunity. So she went back to school part-time when she left the farm for assisted living in a city in her 70s, and got her degree.

  66. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    Oh hey, I thought of an *actual* job question! I’m applying for a legal-ish job with a state agency using their online system, and they are not asking for a cover letter but are asking that you upload a resume. I know that people have said that it never hurts to include a cover letter even if not requested, but it feels sneaky to tack one on to a resume being uploaded into a system like this and I would hate to hurt my chances. Am I overthinking this or am I right to be concerned?

    1. neverjaunty*

      I think you answered your own question – you should give the employer what THEY want, which is your resume, rather than what you or other people want to give them (resume + cover letter). Ignoring the mployer’s stated preferences DOES hurt you.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        That was my impulse as well – I think the “it doesn’t hurt to include a CL” might make more sense with a paper submission, or even something via email rather than an application site. I actually just had a networking meeting relating to this position and think I might be in a stronger place with respect to my resume than I thought, so we’ll see!

    3. SoCal Kate*

      In my experience applying to government jobs (local government, city and county level, California), they don’t want a cover letter. They also don’t want follow up / thank you emails (they would just find it weird and be very confused). Government agencies seem to have their own rules.

  67. Iced Out*

    I had my Performance Review. I work for a larger company and I have been in our companies rising star/ top talent program for a 2+ years . My Immediate supervisor for 6 weeks gave me low marks across the board, While my previous supervisor and our director gave me high marks. The HR VP who does the reviews said current supervisor is not your biggest fan. She apparently does not want to train people, and doesn’t want to manage me. She wanted me put on a PIP Plan but Her bad reviews didn’t cancel out the good reviews I got. Since then My supervisor has given me the silent treatment for 8 weeks as in won’t respond when I say Hi, Doesn’t respond when I check in. I know she has been trying to fire me but in conversation with the director they said I’m fine and that some people don’t play well with others.

    Well as of two weeks ago she has taken all the work away from me and per her email I am to Assist the departments Administrative Assistant (Who I make 3X as much) in tasks the administrative assistant doesn’t want to do such as staple, scan, place in numerical order. I actually Hate myself and my self esteem has taken a huge dip. I have about 30 minutes of work a day, then I watch Tv/ Browse the web until lunch, And then go home. I got transferred to this office and new supervisor was brought on afterwards. Supervisor will stumble upon a task shes never done but will send 30+ emails in an hour and a half time frame. I Finally told her that I am unable to explain to her over email what needed to be done and would happily show her and she CCed about 50 people that I was obviously unable to do my job if I couldn’t give a written explanation of my task.

    I Keep Being told my Program Director and HR VP to be patient, and to not give up on this project and that I am much more than she has me doing. I would literally follow the program director to the ends of the earth to work because he is a great boss and brings people up, and I keep getting told to be patient. I can’t do it anymore. I am absolutely miserable and supervisor has continued to tell everyone that will listen that I am not what they promised her and that I shouldn’t be here and I was making too many mistakes, socializing too much and dressing inappropriately. I Just tell people I have been moved to get different experience no need to drag her down and thinking about it makes me want to bawl.

    At This point I have two formal offers in hand for better pay and better job titles. Is It Ever Okay to give a weeks notice instead of Two. Because I have lost my mind, my mojo and am bitter and angry all the time.

    1. Oldie*

      You may find that they are working on moving her out, and that is why they keep telling you to be patient. Hope things work out well for you.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Giving two weeks notice is all about not burning bridges and getting a good recommendation. It sounds like that ship may have already sailed for you, unfortunately, so I say go ahead with one week. I’d honestly be tempted to drop everything and walk as soon as the new job was locked down.

      1. Chriama*

        Bridges with her previous supervisor and current program manager are definitely *not* burned though, so it’s not such a simple choice. I recommend waiting it out.

      2. Icedout*

        I tried giving a two weeks notice and talked to the program director. He said to give him until the middle of next week if he can find something else for me to do and someone else to work under and if they can match the offer.

        Id work for him for the rest of his career because he is a great boss and we have a great working relationship and I’d love to continue but not at the expense of my sanity

        1. Chriama*

          I’m honestly not that impressed. He knew how she was treating you and couldn’t give any definite timelines until you gave him a deadline. I think it’s probably just healthier for you if she leaves. Do it graciously and maybe one day you’ll end up working together again.

    3. RVA Cat*

      I would go ahead and give your two weeks’ notice as a courtesy to your Director and HR VP and to preserve their references. That said, you could look into seeing if you could use some of your PTO – maybe take Friday & Monday during the middle of your notice period to clear your head?

      It sounds like you and your supervisor are each other’s BEC and there’s nothing to be done but move on. Don’t burn the bridge though because she will eventually leave, or your Director and VP will themselves move on and you could follow them.

      1. Icedout*

        To tell you how sucky this situation is upper management has been letting me take time off without claiming it and signing off my time cards. The past six weeks I’ve had 10 days of time off and the past two weeks i haven’t worked a full day. I’m still at full salary. I’ve figured that with my benefits I’m making about 22$ per packet I staple. I don’t work for a mom and pop company I work for a rather large (10,000+) firm.

        I tried giving a two weeks notice. But program director doesn’t want to lose me. And to give him more time.

        honest to god in her afternoon email to me she remind me that I will continue to work under the administrative assistant and she called me her personal pet peeve. That I am getting up from my desk too much and distracting her And I’m making a lot of mistakes in my current role and she continues to be unhappy with my performance. She cced an operations manager (role beneath program director) to get them involved.

        1. Anon attorney*

          Giving notice is a unilateral act. You don’t need his permission to leave. If he was going to fix this situation he would have done so by now. You are being bullied and if I were you I would not miss out on the opportunity just on the vague promise of action.

    4. Chriama*

      Would you be willing to stay if you moved out from under her? If so, at this point you’re in a great negotiating position. Go back to the program director and VP HR and explain what’s going on, and that if it’s not addressed immediately you’re concerned she’ll do significant damage to your career and your concerns have caused you to look at other jobs. It’s an ultimatum, but politely phrased. If you don’t want to stay no matter what though (and it sounds like it would be better for you to go – more money, a better title), do the professional thing and give 2 weeks notice. Just imagine yourself in a protective bubble of happiness made of the fact that you’re leaving in 2 weeks. Don’t engage with her. If she gets really rude you can go back to HR and say “I want to work out my 2 weeks, but if Supervisor isn’t able to remain professional with me at this time then I’m going to be forced to leave early. I hope you understand.”

      1. Icedout*

        I’m willing to stay but I feel like with her going around and telling everyone from the receptionist to company president besides with people that know the situation I’m a pariah. I’m not actually allowed to touch anything that supervisor doesn’t approve first. I’m in the core department that oversees 5 or 6 other departments but until this stuff gets straightened out I can’t do anything unless she approves. There’s plenty of work but she just says no.

        1. Chriama*

          Yeah, maybe it’s better just to go. Be professional about it. The people who matter know the truth, and I think you’re underestimating people’s perception. They probably know she’s loony tunes and just feel sorry for you.

          1. RVA Cat*

            Agreed. At this point I think you need to leave. You have given your Program Director more than enough time to fix this – and seriously your supervisor is wasting money (by underutilizing you) and damaging other people’s moral with the trash talk. I don’t understand how she isn’t the one in danger of being fired, but by this point the firm is telling you they are okay with her behavior. Believe them, accept one of those better offers and move on.

            1. Christopher Tracy*

              All of this. Your company sucks and none of them sound like good managers because this would have been dealt with a long time ago if they were.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          So if you went to work in another department would your work go through this core department? If yes, then that would be like you never left this woman.

          This woman is a bully and a jerk. What is worrisome to me is that company cannot see that and just remove her. And honestly, that to me is your bigger problem here. The management in your company cannot manage the managers. I’d leave. Don’t let them talk you into “oh, just another week, just a few more days” or whatever other phrases they happen to think of. Just work what you can of your notice and leave.

    5. Belle di Vedremo*

      You’ve already given notice, even if your Program Director and HRVP have asked you to stall. First, make sure you’ve taken home all your personal items. Then go back to them and say that you can’t stall any longer and are confirming your separation date with them of whatever you gave them first. They may offer to let you take the remaining days as vacation, or given current conditions to just not need to work them.

      If they ask you to stall, thank them for their support and let them know that you appreciate all they’ve done toward your moving on to a job with better pay and better title. Perhaps you will work together again. If they offer you another job inside, away from this new supervisor, you need not just a raise but also a better title.

      Follow it up with a letter to the Program Director thanking him for being a great boss for you (and spelling some of that out), and that you hope to work together again sometime.

      It may look like you’ve had a lot of time off, but half days of frustration and boredom don’t give you a respite. Take some time between jobs to clear your head of this supervisor’s nonsense and have a real break.

      Enjoy your new job.

  68. JOTeepe*

    My mom got an official offer for a new position she is really excited about! It’s a lateral move, but on a new project that plays to her strengths and experience in the field. She’s got a few more years before she can retire, and this really looks like the perfect opportunity for her to finish her career on a high note. I am SO happy for her!

  69. WatingHopefully?*

    I have a question about contacting a company I interviewed with to see if they’ve made a decision. Before I started reading this blog, I would have given it another week and maybe followed up, but now I’m not sure if I should.

    Here’s the timeline: I had two interviews about a week apart in early July for a student services job at a large university. I stupidly forgot to ask what their timeline was to make a decision during the second interview, so the first week of August, I emailed to ask. I got a reply the same day that they would be making a decision in the next couple of weeks. Those weeks go by with no word. I know that during the last full week of August, they have an orientation for new students, so I figured if they hadn’t made the decision by then, they probably wouldn’t until after that, at least.

    Should I email again next week? Or just assume that they hired someone else?

    1. Collie*

      Personally, I’d live it in their court. Mentally move on in the meantime and if you hear back, great, if not, then you keep on keepin’ on. Good luck!

    2. JLK*

      I’m all about closure. I would email again. “Good morning. I am following up after my second interview on (date) regarding a final decision on (this position). On this (date) you noted that your organization would be making final decisions in the next couple of weeks. I’m following up on your hiring timeline to inquire if I would be considered for a second interview.”

      If you don’t get anything from there, it’s done and over. Consider it a closed application.

      I ensure every company has amply opportunities to let me know that they want me, can have me, or to bug off.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Yeah, go ahead and send an email, but consider the job taken. Large universities are the worst for hiring… I would know, I work at one!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        If you still have the email from where they indicated sometime in August, hit reply to that email, with your current inquiry. It will look like an elongated conversation but it will make sense that you are asking.

  70. Amber Rose*

    The office manager was taken to the hospital after a nervous breakdown aggravated her pre-existing heart condition the other day. But at no point does management think, hey, maybe she’s under too much stress, maybe we should have a plan going forward. Instead, they just pile all her work on me, even though I don’t know how to do it, and when she’s healthy, nobody wants to bother teaching me anything. So now the stress rolls downhill to me, and since I’m currently swapping around different anxiety meds trying to get my shit under control, I spend more time than I should crying in the bathroom.

    Believe it or not, there’s a lot of good things about this company. But senior management’s refusal to acknowledge realistic human limits or organize any kind of backup plan for people’s tasks is an ongoing and extremely frustrating issue. It makes me want to roll up our Mental Health Policy and smack them on the heads with it. “No! Bad managers! Bad!”

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Ug, your job sounds like my mother-in-law’s – good people doing good work, but no idea that the people working for them are up to their necks and barely hanging on. All I can do is wish you good luck!

    2. neverjaunty*

      Even if there are a lot of good things about this company, the bad things are really bad. It’s not like the good and bad cancel each other out – when employees are going to the freaking hospital because of the stress of the job, and the company’s response is “Welp, guess you have to do her work now”, there’s no amount of good to offset that.

      It’s like the old joke about how a particular town has a lovely average temperature of 75 degrees because half the time it’s freezing cold and half the time it’s boiling hot.

    3. Belle di Vedremo*

      Good intentions don’t guarantee the ability to fulfill them, and you can’t make up for it by yourself. What you describe is painfully ridiculous and incompetent. I hope you’re looking for another job.

      If you’re on anxiety meds, I hope that means you have a professional someone you can strategize with on plans for self care during a job hunt and job change. If you’re working long hours, figure out what you can continue to manage and commit to more sword work, self care and job hunting in the hours you’re reclaiming.

      Good luck.

  71. Anon 2*

    Is anyone required to time in and out when they have a non-billable exempt role?

    Where I work, all employees have been required to time in and out on the same system, both exempt and non-exempt. With the new DOL laws we have changed time clock systems, which gives exempt employees more flexibility to record their time at a later date. However, we got an email yesterday saying an all supervisors would be monitoring when we timed in each day and if we weren’t timed in we wouldn’t be considered working. This impacts all exempt employees, most of us whom are mid-career professionals. And I’m deeply frustrated at being treated like a child. But I have no idea how to handle this, or if they can even force exempt employees to complete the time clock. HR has also indicated that pay checks are tied to the time clock, and so those exempt employees who fail to time in and out are at risk for not being paid (I don’t think they will do that, but I dislike the threat). I’m frustrated and at a loss about what to do. Any suggestions? Is this just a suck it up and deal with it situation?

    1. Oldie*

      Yes, they can ask you to clock in and out. And they could dock your accruals for time off. They cannot dock your pay for time away unless you are out the whole day (or week, depending on state law). They cannot dock your pay for failing to clock in if they know you were working.

      Perhaps there are people who are abusing their exempt status or the company is trying to get a handle on how many hours different jobs actually take. You may find this dies away after they have accomplished their goals. In the meantime, they are paying you for your work, and they do have a right to know when you are there and when you are not.

      It does suck, though. Sorry.

      1. Anon 2*

        The majority of staff this impacts have been working for the organization for 2-15 years. And we are required to use vacation or sick time anytime we work less than 6 hours a day.

        Thanks. I figured it was a suck it up situation. But, it’s a symptom of a larger problem, about experienced professionals being treated like children.

    2. Observer*

      I’m not sure what the big deal is. It’s a bit annoying, but if there is some flexibility in getting errors fixed (eg you didn’t clock in when you came in), it shouldn’t be that big of a deal.

      There are a lot of good reasons to track people’s time. And, even with exempt staff, the issue of PTO comes into play.

      Bottom line is that perhaps adjusting your attitude is the healthiest thing you can do.

  72. Question For My Husband*

    My husband (who requested that I ask this) finished business school two years ago. He was hired at the company where he did his summer internship. However, after 18 months his department was eliminated. He had several internal offers but instead accepted an offer at another local company.

    He has been in his new role for about 4 months and it isn’t as advertised — although he got a substantial raise and an increased title over his last job, he is no longer managing staff and is doing more junior-level analyst work.

    At the same time, we’re considering (as always — we go back and forth on this all the time) moving cross-country (back to the city where we lived a decade ago, and where his family is). So he’s started dipping his toes into a job search in our old city, using his parents’ address. (He’s not looking locally — if we decide to stay, he would either stick it out in his current role for a while longer or go back to his previous company.)

    He’s started dipping his toes into another job search, and he’s wondering whether he should include his current job on his resume. Is it better for his resume to include a non-local (to the city in which he’s applying) job that he’s only been in for four months, or to have a gap?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think add his current job. Explain the reason for wanting the relocation in the cover letter.
      It is actually much easier to get a job when you HAVE a job. He can always explain he was working in current city post-school but now wants to move back to CityB because he is from there, wants to be there, yada, yada.

      1. Question For My Husband*

        Thank you for your response!

        I worry that using the relocation as the explanation after being in this job after only 4 months is problematic. We wouldn’t be considering moving right now if his job had been as advertised — the reason he’s looking at all is because he’s doing work that’s too junior for him, and because he’s looking we’re using that as a potential opportunity to make the cross country move. (Does that make sense? What I mean is that his desire to change jobs is the driver here, and the move is a potential added benefit — rather than the move being the driver, and the job change a necessary part of that.)

        1. Newlywed*

          I would say that after getting into the position, he has realized that the job wasn’t the position he thought, and there are no other opportunities for growth within that company, that this is not a good long-term fit, and he wants to work for a company where he can see himself becoming a long-term asset. I would make the focus on him wanting to take on more responsibility and finding a good fit within a company that has a path for career growth. (but don’t make it all about him — about what he can bring to the table for the new company as well)

  73. Good_Intentions*

    How to deal with disorganization as a contractor?

    I have a four-month remote contract with a nonprofit organization specializing in registering college students in key swing states to vote. My supervisor is a woman I’ll call Leah based in Washington, D.C., who started in April.

    She and I check-in via email nearly daily and have a phone call once a week. Well, this week things went sideways when she took a sick day and her colleague filled in for her. Turns out, the CEO wanted to check with me about something and showed up unexpectedly, which caused me a great deal of anxiety.

    I am encountering a series of unrealistic expectations regarding the availability of school officials to speak with me and commit to the student voter registration program (too late in the school year, other similar programs in place, etc.), but the D.C. staff just tells me to keep calling and find alternate contacts for the program.

    Although I have no issue with reaching out the schools, I am finding their complaints about the timing of the requests and the similarities among the various programs difficult to answer. The other problem is that Leah and her counterparts provided me with no formal training or background, so I repeatedly find myself unable to answer questions about the organization’s collaborators and perceived competitors for program staff.

    The question really is how do I, a long distance short-term contractor, express my concerns and make the best of this convoluted situation?

    Thanks!

  74. BBBizAnalyst*

    Update from dealing with last week’s post on disorganized project manager. Apparently, other teams have noticed and it’s made its way up the food chain. This application transition is apparently eating up a ton of $$. Needless to say, our big exec is pissed that the rollout keeps getting delayed. We were supposed to start testing weeks ago but now won’t until 1Q2017. Hopefully, we’ll see some better organization and transparency soon.

  75. Newlywed*

    Any advice on supervising someone who has extreme ADD (medicated)? We both report up to our manager, but for the meantime I’m responsible for supervising the team’s work and making sure things get done on time. This particular team member gets distracted really easily. Our manager has allowed him to work from home one day a week (all of us have that privilege), and when he is in the office, he has a very erratic schedule. He will come in late and leave early, and sometimes do work in the middle of the night. I believe that our manager has approved this arrangement, as she is aware of his condition. That’s fine, but the issue I’m running into is that, due to his unpredictable schedule, there have been several times when I’ve had to step in and take over a project of his because he wasn’t available and we weren’t able to reach him. Additionally, he is really bad about turning in work very late, even when the due date has been previously communicated, or doing the work but forgetting an extra step that is a part of the process and then creating a delay or issue as a result. Any tips for helping this person to manage his time more effectively?

    1. ArtK*

      Supervise just like you’d supervise someone who didn’t have ADD.

      “Fergus, your erratic schedule is affecting your work. How do you plan on fixing this issue?” or however you would deal with an underperforming/erratic person who didn’t have the issue. Yes, you may have to make some kind of accommodation for his problem, but that needs to be reasonable and having to pick up work he’s not doing is heading for unreasonable.

      1. Newlywed*

        Thanks for the reply. I feel like the issue is that while I’m expected to keep the team running smoothly, I don’t really have the authority to set schedules or demand those kinds of changes. It’s a bit awkward.

        1. Sybil Fawlty*

          If I were you, I would try to impose the schedule and demand changes anyway. Most of the time, if you take the authority, and just be matter of fact about it, people will respond. I would loop your manager in and say, I’m having XYZ problems with Fergus, and I am going to try ABC to solve it. If they have a problem, they’ll tell you. And then you can say, how would you like me to proceed?

          Just my 2 cents, good luck!

        2. neverjaunty*

          Yes, you do. You can certainly ask him what accommodations he needs to make sure he gets the work done when it’s supposed to be done – maybe he needs his Outlook set up to ping him with reminders, to pick a random example – but you aren’t required to let him not do his job.

    2. Zahra*

      I do have ADD and here are my tips for the ADD person:

      – Use a task management software/app. I like ToDoist, but it may be another one. Important features: sub-projects, sub-tasks, reminders, due dates, an ability to be in your face easily (I keep the web page open at all times). I paid for the premium version for due times, emailing tasks, see past tasks. Add due dates/times in the task name.
      – Use a time management technique. Pomodoro is great and can be adapted in other increments than 25/5. I’ve read about someone who couldn’t stay focused for more than 8 minutes. So she did 8/2, but made more cycles before the long break. I use Pomodone, which can pull data from ToDoist.
      – Break tasks in small chunks. I swear, double-checking an Excel file had 12 steps : check formulas in X column, check formulas in Y column, cross-check with source data for X issue, etc. Each step was a 5-10 minutes task, but I didn’t forget a single step.
      – Plan your time: On Monday (or Friday the week before), plan your week and put it in your work calendar. Modify as needed, but plan it out. Each morning (or afternoon), plan your day. When I say plan your time, I mean block periods in your calendar, as Busy, Tentative or Free, depending on the priority of the tasks. Bonus: that means everyone who has access to his calendar will know when he’s in the office.
      – Regularly check in with someone who can help you suss out your “true” priorities. I go with a simple priority scheme: there are rarely more than 3-4 priority levels, even when I have 12 to-dos on my list. It’s my take on Urgent/Non-Urgent, Important/Non-important.
      – Organize your mailbox. Make as many subfolders as needed. Move stuff from your inbox as things are done. For me, have more than 40 emails means I’m due for a cleanup and 100 emails after cleanup means I’m not in control of my task load.
      – Take regular breaks. NOT in front of a screen (at least, not for me: it doesn’t refresh me as much as offline time). Get up and walk around.
      – Eat and exercise. Even a walk around the block during lunch time will help.
      – Use headphones to remove distractions. Monopolize a conference room if you need to. I listen to movies I already know by heart as background noise. Some like the radio or podcasts.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      You need to talk to your manager. Find out how they want you to handle this person missing deadlines and creating more work for you/others. Let them know that this is a crucial factor preventing you from truly managing workflows. You may not like the proposed solution but it will CYA in case this coworker screws more things up, so that it doesn’t reflect on you and you don’t look passive or reactionary.

      I just had to let a project go into a death spiral because a coworker at my same level, who I do not have authority over, was doing the same stuff as your coworker and I was the one duct taping things back together after their mistakes. I stopped doing that, with agreement of my bosses, and the project ended up majorly underperforming, but at least I was no longer responsible for it. Coworker is still deluding themselves that the project will get extended based on how things went though (lack of self insight is one of their issues too) so that’s fun.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If he’s not meeting deadlines, then he is not doing the job. Your company has given him accommodation in the way they have loosened up his schedule. Even with that, his stuff is still not on time.
      Since this has been going on for a while, I would let him know that the problem is serious and must be remedied. I would not sugar coat my message. I would be careful about how involved I got in finding solutions for him. Set boundaries on how much you will do here.

  77. Lolly Scramble*

    I am having a formal meeting next week to discuss my stress with my manager, HR and a union rep. The problem is that my manager is the cause of all the stress. She was hired last year and everyone at my workplace is at the end of our tether because she is hopeless but her manager (grandboss) does nothing, and isn’t even around a lot of the time. In her absence our manager spends a lot of time having VERY loud conversations and shrieking with laughter, plus swearing a lot when she is attempting to work, but that’s the least of the problems, but basically means everyone has BEC rage with her because we all have to listen to her all the time in a huge open plan office. Our main problem is that she is unable to write in a way that we can understand (it has been suggested that she has undiagnosed dyslexia) and sends us instructions in a long stream of consciousness style with so many spelling errors that as I say we can’t read it and have to consult among ourselves to try and guess what she means. She changes her mind all the time about what we are working on while we are still working on it causing us extra work. Previously, when we had meetings with her she would keep us waiting (because she would be in the middle of something she was struggling with) to go to the meeting then not have booked a room so we would have to wander around looking for an empty room, then the meeting itself would just be her going off about whatever she was thinking about e.g. “marketing! We need to do marketing! We should have pens! Or postcards! What do you think?” but after we went to her boss she changed the meetings so that other people now create agendas and book rooms and she is there for the meetings. However, even though we told her about all our other problems (some of which are outlined above) with the boss nothing else has changed. One member of staff went to HR to prevent her revealing personal information to all staff, and another member of staff had a meeting with grandboss after she sent 4 or 5 different emails in a day changing what we were supposed to be doing, so now she doesn’t speak to them as well as me, but grandboss is taking the line that we need to go to our boss about our problems with our boss, not her. So if I send her something our boss has sent that I can’t understand (when she has asked me to complete the work in her absence) she tries to guess what it means, or suggests that I ask her when she gets back, when what I want is for her to try to get our boss to write in a way I can understand. How can she pretend it’s normal to not be able to understand your boss’s emails? We are all trying to get other jobs obviously but I don’t know what to because I’m so desperate to leave I feel like I am grasping at anything that could feasibly get me out of my job fast enough. I’m also saving up to just quit but it will take some time.

    1. Good_Intentions*

      Lolly Scramble:

      You have my sympathies!

      I have no real advice other than to breathe deeply, try your best to maintain a neutral and professional tone, and look for another opportunity (internal transfer or entirely new job).

      Best of luck to you!

    2. Marisol*

      Can you reply to your boss’s nonsensical emails with something like, “Jane, I don’t understand your request. Can you try explaining it in another way?” and if you don’t get an understandable answer, stop by her desk to ask in person? Or, is it possible to continue documenting that you have tried to understand her weird emails (for example, by replying to her and cc-ing grand boss and maybe HR) and then finally just blow off the request if no clear direction ever comes? If something isn’t worth explaining, then it isn’t worth doing, right? After a good-faith effort to understand, I don’t see how you could be faulted if you don’t execute a direction that makes no sense. In other words, maybe you can ignore her a little?

      1. Lolly Scramble*

        Thanks Marisol! Basically if I copy in grand boss she gets pissy with me saying I need to take it up with boss but I get so angry because I would have to do this 5 times a day at least she needs to do something if she has an employee who can’t write at all, but it’s never going to happen so I will try to ignore her like you say.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      With the emails, I would be tempted to answer, “I do not understand this email. Please explain more clearly. I will start this as soon as I have a clear understanding of what you want me to do.”

      I hope you bring samples of the emails to your meeting.

  78. zora.dee*

    Hey folks, thanks for all of the advice last week. (about whether to accept a paycut to go permanent at my job, because in the short term I need to focus on a health issue)

    I went ahead and emailed HR on Monday to accept the job. And then since then, the HR person has been very short with me, when she used to be really chatty. I think she can tell I’m not super excited, but I don’t know what she expected.

    The agency recruiter suggested I try negotiating for more one more time, but I felt weird about doing that when HR was so emphatic that they had very little budget to increase, and their counteroffer was only $1/hour. I just felt like it would be weird, and there was a slim chance they would come up with more anyway. I hope I didn’t leave money on the table.

    Also, saw the doctor this week and the health issue is looking like it might be all cleared up, so just another week or two and then dealing with all of the insurance and billing paperwork (!!!!!) and then I’ll start job hunting again. Thanks again, I’m sure I’ll be back for more advice as I work on the job search!

    1. Good_Intentions*

      Zora.dee:

      Happy to learn that your health issue is close to being resolved. Your shoulders must be feeling a lot less tense these days.

      With regard to the HR person, please don’t think too much about it. You have every right to be less than thrilled.

      Please take care of yourself and enjoy this Labor Day weekend. Three days to decompress and just enjoy the late summer weather.

      1. zora.dee*

        Thank you! Yeah, I’m definitely feeling less worried, now it’s just about making a billion phone calls and opening and tracking all the paperwork from multiple hospitals, etc. Which is still a lot, but I feel like I can get through it one step at a time. Still pretty tired most of the time, but I think I’m starting to feel better little by little.

        As for HR, you’re right, but I guess I’m still a little irritated that they think that $1/hour is some fantastic deal, but it doesn’t matter. I’ll let it go and focus on myself.

        You enjoy the long weekend as well!! Yay for extra days to relax!

  79. Dunce cap employee update*

    Hi all. It’s been a few months since my initial post so I wanted to update you all now that I’m in a new job.

    Things at the company remained unchanged. I spoke with my peers and many did not agree with the dunce cap parade, but were afraid to speak up. After many months of job searching, I had lined up 7 interviews within 2 weeks of each other. I was confident that I would land an offer with one of these companies, so I decided to speak up. I told my manager I thought the parade was humiliating and we should find better ways to deal with employee issues.

    My manager did not take kindly to that suggestion. She said the practice encouraged transparency and high work ethics and even insinuated that people who disagreed with the practice were trying to slack off without getting noticed. She was getting hostile while defending it, so I dropped the subject.

    She started acting coldly to me after that. She stopped doing our check in meetings or responding to my emails, which made it so I was unable to proceed with certain projects. When I did get the rare response, she would start nitpicking small things like forgetting a comma in an email or taking a 32 minute lunch instead of 30. I knew these were big red flags, but I was proceeding with second level interviews at that point.

    Three weeks after approaching her about the dunce caps, I was fired for sub par work. And I will admit that my work was sub par in those last three weeks because I was stalled by my manager and not given information I needed to do my work. No severance was offered, but they did cash out the 3 weeks of vacation time I had built up.

    On my fourth day unemployed, I received an offer. It was a 10% pay cut from my last role but I don’t have a lot of savings so I accepted. The benefits are also much better. The environment is normal and less stressful and my coworkers and manager seem great thus far. I can live with this and work around the smaller paycheck for now.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      OMG! I remember this. Dunce caps encourage transparency huh? In like what, the 1930’s?
      Oh, be so glad you got out!

    2. Anon 2*

      Very glad you left. It definitely sounds like you were stitched up. I am always amazed at the supervisors who sit on information that is critical for an employee and then blame the employee for not completing the work.

    3. Not-So-Sad Grad*

      Thank you for the update! You, of course, know how ridiculous the poor treatment you received was. Best of luck with your new employer.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Oooh, I”ll put this in my file of updates to include in future update posts if that’s okay? (Generally I like to do updates as their own posts since lots of people don’t read the open thread but love updates!)

    5. Jaguar*

      Please write a Glassdoor review of that place, including both the dunce cap garbage and how you were fired for complaining about it (because that’s basically what happened). Even encourage your co-workers to do the same, if you’re still in contact with them. The whole thing is horrid and it should be a stain on the company’s reputation that it happened.

    8. seejay*

      We have a manager at our company who would send out emails when someone made a mistake to the entire team with “WHO GETS A DUNCE CAP??” in it to point out errors. His team (which I wasn’t on at the time but worked in close parallel with and was friends with members of) were really pissed off about it but had no idea how to broach it since he was still new to the team and apparently this was how he was figuring out how to assert his authority.

      One day he made a huge blunder on the code base and one of his employees sent out an email to the entire team with “MANAGER GETS A DUNCE CAP FOR THIS MISTAKE!”

      He did not take kindly to it. Coworker got called into his office and *reamed* for the email. Manager apparently was not allowed to have the dunce cap, it was reserved *ONLY* for the people on the team.

      Needless to say though, the dunce cap emails stopped after that one.

      Manager is still here, it’s 7 years later and while his team has changed up a bit and I’m actually now under him, he’s grown and learned and he’s a pretty good manager and awesome guy now. There was definitely some learning pains with him and dunce cap was one of them, which fortunately I did not have to experience.

      But seriously… dunce cap emails. *shakes head*

    10. Not So NewReader*

      For situations like this I wish we could name names. I would go out of my way to avoid doing business with these people.

  80. Pumpkin Spice*

    Over the past year, our clients have been increasingly unhappy due to a number of factors (mainly the services we offer are not up to their satisfaction). The majority of our employees (about 20 total) have been discussing how we can all sit down with management to try to change direction in order to improve. Management has a history of being “my way or the highway”.

    Has anyone done this before? Any advice?

    1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      If you do this, you will need documentation. Get clear examples from your clients, with as many about the same issues as possible to show it is an across the board thing and not a single customer complaint thing.

      Then have a plan for correcting the issues to present, and what the benefit of implementing that plan and improving the services will be

      As far as the my way or the highway aspect… you know management. If they don’t agree that changes need to be made, would they simply say “well tough we’re doing it this way” and move on, or would they feel anyone who came to them was now not a team player? If the latter, make sure you have as large a group as possible. I doubt they’d fire over half the work force.

  81. Helen*

    I have an awkward situation in my job. My job is almost all external-facing (my daily work is with people outside my organization, technically, although it is the same people year after year). One project I work on is headed by my client “Susan” who hired “Miranda” to do one part of the work. For a while, all three of us were involved in conversations about the work relevant to Miranda, but at one point there was some confusion and Miranda had a small meltdown over email at me.

    After that, Susan asked for all communication to go through her exclusively in order to reduce any miscommunication. I was very happy to comply with this request, and no longer copied Miranda on anything. If I had information or questions regarding Miranda’s work, I addressed them to Susan, and Susan communicated with Miranda.

    A couple of times, though, Miranda has contacted me without including Susan. When this is done through email, I either reply copying Susan, or just forward to Susan. But a couple of times, including once this week, Miranda has called me on the phone. My caller ID just shows the phone number, which I haven’t memorized, so I wasn’t able to screen it out. I’ve done my best to just refer her back to Susan, but she keeps doing it when she hits a problem (I can never help her with these problems, yet she always thinks that I somehow am withholding information from her). I’m not really sure exactly what she has been told regarding contact with me–I only know that I am not supposed to have contact with her. Saying “Sorry, I’m not allowed to talk to you,” feels really rude, because these people are essentially my “clients” and I am supposed to be helpful and accommodating.

    Anyone have any advice on how to handle these situations? Do I tell on her to Susan? How would I word that without sounding like I am trying to get her in trouble?

    1. ArtK*

      CC Susan:

      “Miranda, per our phone conversation this morning, we agreed that …”

      Susan asked that all communications go through her. Miranda is either deliberately or cluelessly trying to bypass that. Your relationship is with Susan, so you follow Susan’s wishes. (Not to mention that documenting phone conversations is a good practice in any case.)

    2. MissDisplaced*

      You say kindly but matter of factly: “I’m sorry, but I don’t really have the specifics to help you with that Miranda. I suggest you follow up with Susan for information on that project.” OR
      “I’d like to help, but Susan is really the best person for you to connect with.”
      “I can’t really speak to that, but Susan would be your best source.” ETC. and if she doesn’t get the hint:
      “Miranda, Susan asked that I refer all questions back to her.”

      Unless it’s really something trivial like needing a phone number or document or something. It sounds like it’s not though.

    3. Marisol*

      “Susan told me that she was to be the only point of contact, so I’ll have to refer you to her.”

      You use a variant of “Susan said.” You’re not the decision maker, and so you need not posit yourself as one. You’re just relaying information. Say that sentence and then stop talking. Use silence to your advantage. If Miranda asks a follow up question, pause a moment, and say, “sorry Miranda, but I have to honor Susan’s wishes. Wish I could help out. I need to go now.”

      If it keeps happening, then I might go ahead and ask Susan if Miranda was aware of the new policy.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. Go with the “one point of contact” explanation. It’s just good practice anyway. You could say, something like “I generally set up with one person as my contact person. It helps to streamline everything.” But only say that if it’s true.

  82. overeducated*

    I started my new job this week! My boss seems like someone who wants me to get involved in interesting work, and I may have some say in what direction my role takes based on questions he asked yesterday, so things could work out really well. But honestly starting made me kind of nervous because I’m in a new term position in a highly bureaucratic organization, and I’m hoping that I can meaningfully contribute that don’t step on other people’s toes or get held up in red tape. I want to make myself necessary by doing work with an impact, and in these early stages I want to speak up about where I think my strengths and interests lie so that I will do *well* at whatever I do, but there is SO much to learn first about the layers and overlapping roles and strict processes. Any advice or experience on how to navigate being asked about ideas and suggestions when you don’t yet know what is actually possible or how it would impact your colleagues?

    Thanks, and wish me luck!

    1. Mockingjay*

      I’ve been at my new job for a month now. One of the reasons they hired me was my experience in organizing documentation processes. Since I’m new to the project, I’ve simply been observing the current processes and making notes for myself. (It’s hard sometimes because you feel: “ooh, ooh, I can do that! I have experience X!” Especially when you like the new company, your team, and the project, and want to jump right in…)

      What I’ve found is that their processes are solid; the project has doubled in the last year so the tools used to manage schedule, tracking, and document storage are not adequate anymore. Replacement systems are in the works. So my ideas will be implemented eventually.

      In the interim, I’ve been working cheerfully at everything that has been asked of me. (I helped clear a huge document backlog in the first three weeks which was a great relief to my team lead; he had vacation planned and was sweating bullets that things would go south in his absence.) I’m trying to foster good relationships with my new teammates, so I can have their support and knowledge in the future. I’ve met the project “Go-To” person; she is AMAZING and will answer any question you have or direct you to the right resource.

      Just by listening a lot of my “why do you do things X and not Z” questions are answered. “We do X because there is a background process B that feeds into it. We also do C simple process because there is no budget for D big process.”

      I remind myself every day to BE PATIENT AND LEARN FIRST. New project is a long-running contract. New company has obviously been doing something right to keep it for many years, so there is much I can learn from them.

      1. overeducated*

        Yes, I agree that learning first is absolutely key. My role is supposed to be expanding/improving on stuff that’s already going on to some extent in other divisions of the organization (and helping improve communication between the divisions), so of course my first task is to understand what people in each division actually do and what they think needs to be improved and how. But I’m also already getting questions (good ones) about what kind of projects I think might be useful so I’m trying to figure out how to phrase that something seems like a good idea even though I have more to learn about how it fits in.

  83. Interviewing after leaving a toxic workplace*

    Hi, everyone! Sorry about the long post, but I would really love some tips for interviewing after leaving a toxic workplace without a job lined up. I have been out of school for about two years and have two internships listed on my resume and have worked seasonal retail in between. I mention this because I do think it has put me in a disadvantage when applying for jobs.

    Recently, I left my job after seven months due to a dysfunctional and toxic workplace. I tried to stay on until I had another job lined up and had some interviews, but received no offers. It got to a point where I could not stay. I gained weight and couldn’t sleep at nights (or had nightmares). I would cry going to and after work every day. And my micromanaging boss would behave in weird ways to pit employees against each other or would even pick on certain employees in an effort to make them quit or make their jobs miserable.

    Unfortunately, I was her next target and she even changed my job description. I worked with women from a specific minority group to ensure they would get access to healthcare. Not only do I speak that specific language, but I am from that demographic. Well, my boss effectivly decided to not serve that population and enacted new policies that made it harder for those women in particular to get service from us. To clarify, only these minioity women were affected and had to meet special requirements to be helped; requirements that were not universal and that other similar organizations did not do. Several of all thought it was prejudicial and discriminatory. It was then that I had enough.

    I resigned over this policy and it did not go well. My manager even insulted me and tried to emotionally guilt me into staying, even blaming me for this new policy that she herself made up. I gave notice and made it clear that I would walk out if I felt I was being mistreated, i.e. I would not let her insult me. Giving a two week notice is a a little unusual because that manager was so toxic, we had coworkers just leave after giving notice and never come back. Well, three days I walked out and later heard from friends she emailed supervisors that I walked out without notice. I didn’t care; I had already secured references and felt so happy to leave.

    But, now I am wondering what to say in interviews. I had a recent interview and I didn’t know how to answer why I left without a job lined up. I tried to say that my job description changed, but it didn’t satisfy my interviews and I felt it was the reason I did it get that position. And I feel if I am honest, it will count against me. I would really appreciate any tips to how to explain why I left a terrible workplace without my explanation being a red flag to potential employers.

      1. Chriama*

        I like this the best. You were working with vulnerable populations, your agency (don’t need to mention the manager) made policy changes that made it difficult for certain minority groups to access those services and you had ethical concerns about it.

        Also, can you report your manager and/or agency to some board. It *must* be illegal to throw up barriers to aid based solely on being part of a minority group… isn’t it? Especially if they’re getting government funding?

    2. Newlywed*

      As for why you left the job without anything lined up: I would say that you were fortunately in a position to take a short sabbatical due to a health issue that has since been resolved and is not recurring (it’s true, since it was your mental health that was at stake! plus all of the physical effects of stress you were under.). Say this calmly and follow up with “I’m excited about getting back into X and reinvigorated to tackle Y!” (or something less cheesy)

      As for why you left the job, I have been in several toxic jobs and I always said “looking for a new opportunity” or “The position that I was hired for turned out to be something different, and there were no other opportunities for growth or advancement within X department.” “I’m ready to take on more responsibility and this was the right time for me to make the change.” I would resist the urge to badmouth the employer because since they don’t work for your boss, they won’t be able to tell if 1) you are difficult and a risk to manage or 2) if your boss was the horrible one.

      Try to rehearse these things and make it seem like no big deal. You don’t know that your answer to that question is necessarily why you didn’t get the job. Try not to get flustered, realize that shit happens to everyone, and just focus on moving forward and presenting yourself as the best candidate you can be.

    3. NW Mossy*

      How about mostly honest? “The direction of the program I was working on shifting away from providing services to [x group], and I’m looking to make a change.” Basically, you can explain the result (job is no longer what it was) without getting into the details of the why (toxic manager sets crazy direction). It’s also good if you can follow this up with something specifically positive about the job you’re interviewing for, like “And that’s why I’m really excited that this role involves me doing Y, because [insert reasons here].” Keep the tone forward-looking and positive and you’ll be fine.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        I agree – no need to use the illness thing, which can sometimes work against you. Just be honest. When I asked why you left your last job, say you worked with X population to try and aid them in accessing healthcare, but then a policy change was made that effectively cut off services to X population, and that change was not applied to any other group. You had ethical concerns about the direction they were taking the organization, and so you left to find an opportunity that better aligns with your career goals. Say this factually and unemotionally, and it shouldn’t be a problem.

  84. LawCat*

    I’m thinking about bike commuting occasionally. My main concerns are (1) personal safety and (2) appearing nice when I am at work.

    On safety, the bike trail that I would need to use passes through an area where there are a lot of illegal encampments and there have been incidents on the trail with territorial/aggressive illegal campers. I am not sure what to do to protect myself from attack. Current plan is to get pepper spray, a sound grenade, and a whistle. Anything else I should do?

    On appearance, I’m mostly not sure what to do about my hair since I’ll have a bike helmet. I can change my clothes in the bathroom at work and put on fresh deodorant, but can’t use a hair dryer or curler. I have fine hair that falls a bit above my chin in the front and higher up in the back. Do I style my hair as usual at home and try and fluff it back up post-bike helmet? Do I leave product off and try and style it at work? I appreciate any tips on what to use.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Frequent bike commuter here :D

      I do not have aggressive camper issues though. Yikes. I think your plans sound very practical (whistle, pepper spray). Maybe also make sure at least one other person knows your route? Just for peace of mind.

      If your work has shower options, that it always a win (even for just a quick rinse). Otherwise, do your hair at work, if possible. I did actually ask and get the okay to stick a little basket in the bathroom for a blow dryer, straightener, and products. Other ladies have added to it and it’s appreciated :)

      At the least, toss a hair brush in your bag!

      1. LawCat*

        Unfortunately, no showers here!

        My challenge without a hair dryer is that my hair tends to just go flat. I could certainly take a brush and hair spray though. Maybe I just need to lock myself in my office with some velcro rollers for the first 15-20 mins of each day and that might help. (I can’t change in my office because one wall is basically just wavy glass that distorts the view of the person inside, but you can still kind of see them.)

        There’s definitely room for a little basket in our bathroom, but it’s not just for us and available to the public.

        1. Blue Anne*

          When I’ve done bike commuting, it’s always been to places with no showers. I found that having a stash of face wipes, baby wipes, and that extra-volume dry shampoo was really helpful for me.

          1. LawCat*

            The wipes are a good idea! I’ve never used dry shampoo before. Do you recommend any particular brand?

            1. Natalie*

              They also make body wipes that are supposed to be better for de-stinking oneself; no idea if they work or not though.

              There are approximately a jillion brands of dry shampoo so if you have a favorite hair products brand, they probably make one. If not, a lot of people like batiste or Not Your Mothers. I’ve also used the Herbal Essences one and it’s fine.

              Could you wear your hair up on bike days?

            2. Mreasy*

              I love Batiste for a reasonably priced brand, and Klorane when I’m feeling flush. Dry shampoo is the greatest invention of our time. I would be lost without it. Fine hair don’t care!!!

              1. Mreasy*

                Oh, and let me warn you strongly against Tresemme! I have a lot of feelings about dry shampoo, but mostly I’m just excited for you to welcome it into your life!

        2. CheeryO*

          Can you do dry shampoo? I have fine hair too, and a little blast of dry shampoo at the roots is usually enough to get my hair looking presentable again when it goes limp.

    2. Ella*

      Bike commuter here too!

      My hair just always went flat whether I wore a bike helmet or not, so I didn’t have that particular problem. I had a brush at work (my hair is fine and straight and I’ve never done much with it because unless I plaster it with hairspray, it goes flat by lunch no matter what). Wearing a small hat under your helmet can help with helmet hair (your hair will at least be equally squished instead of…stripey). I would do more styling at work than at home, personally.

      I used to ride my bike along a trail that had encampments by it too, and I never had a problem, though it sounds like your camper neighbors might be more aggressive than mine. If folks are actually camping ON the trail and making it hazardous to ride on, call the police and they’ll clear it out. If you’re riding at a good clip, most people won’t bother you because they don’t want to get run over by a bicycle. If your bike has straight handlebars (as opposed to the curved bars of a road bike), you can hang a u-lock on your handlebars. U-locks make pretty serious weapons (I used mine once to deter a dog).

      Also, a tip: if you’re still driving to work some days, and you have some storage space at work, think about bringing your clothes with you in your car (2-3 days worth) and a pair of shoes to change into and leave them at work. The less you have to carry with you every day, the more fun your commute will be.

    3. Helen*

      Regarding the safety, can you investigate reports of actual incidents in that area? Sometimes the actual danger is really overblown in that kind of scenario. I know my town gives a rundown of reported incidents weekly.

      I use a local bike path for commuting and there are so many commuters on the path I can’t imagine anyone trying to commit a major crime. It might be different if you commute during off-hours.

      If you can find a local self-defense class for women, that might also be helpful both in actual skills to protect yourself and some good information about the kind of attacks that happen often in your area. (I assume you are a woman due to your concern about using a hair curler…forgive me if that was too much of an assumption.)

    4. seejay*

      Daily bike commuter here, but I ride in the city so my safety issues usually run the gamut of jaywalking pedestrians, crazy homeless people and aggressive drivers.

      While I’ve never used it, I was taught by a former bike messenger to never underestimate the power of your bolt bike lock. It sounds terrible, but the rounded end is a good spot to grip it and the bolt part is a good hefty weight and it swings well. If you have to, it’ll take out a car mirror, a window, and would probably knock someone out if they’re coming at you and you smack them up the side of the head with it. Do you *want* to do that? Hell no, but if someone’s going to try to run me down or take my bike out from under me (quite reasonable in this city), they’re going to get that lock across the noggin. That’s one of the easiest, most convenient biker weapons to carry for the most part that also doubles as a useful tool you need (and trust me, get a bolt lock, even if you’re not in a big city, cable locks are too easy to cut).

      Can’t help much with the appearance, as a) I don’t wear a helmet (not required by law if over 16 and personal choice) and b) I don’t do much with my hair aside from basic product and can get away with a mussed look due to a half shaved head anyway. I do carry a change of clothes and keep a small case of personal care products in my desk for emergencies (comb, deodorant, makeup touchup) but other than that, most else I can get away with. I also have two drugstores right nearby in case I miss out on anything.

      1. Kelly L.*

        My college self-defense class used to recommend one of those keychains that’s your name carved into a block of wood. Surprisingly sturdy!

    5. AnonAcademic*

      Daily bike commuter here! Helmet hair is a Thing but there are options….for example you can part your hair on the opposite side you wear it for your ride, then flip it over at work, and it will re-volumize it a bit. Or, if you can learn to do pincurls, you can wear a scarf over them for the ride and then brush out the curls once you’re at work (more time efficient and better for your hair than hot rollers). I’ve also found that pinning the front of my hair into a little pompadour creates volume that’s only partially flattened by my helmet (like this: http://www.belle18.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/puff1.jpg ).

      In general since I’m biking to and from places multiple times a day, I mostly make sure my hair is neat and contained and have lowered my standards for how styled it is. I compensate with cute hair accessories (I have lots of vintage scarves I use as headbands).

  85. Caity*

    At what point is it too ridiculous the measures your boss makes you go to to open and close the store? We have multiple lights in outlets and power strips that we have to crawl under furniture and actually move pieces of furniture to get to twice a day. She also blocked off the doorway to the kitchen and we had to duck under a curtain and I told her I hurt myself doing it and she didn’t care.

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is not at all reasonable. The only comparable experience I’ve had was when I worked in retail and we had some unusual (but in a good way) winter holiday displays in the front windows where it was tricky (and a bit of a pain) to reach behind store displays in front of the front windows for light switches.

      Maybe call OSHA?

    2. Aisling*

      Absolutely call OSHA. You can do it anonymously, and they would be very interested in this rediculous set up.

  86. Worst Case Scenario*

    Hi all! I have a question on behalf of a friend: what do you do when you’re 17, working your first retail job, you’re frequently the only employee in the store with your boss — and your boss is sort of creepy?

    I know that can be a loaded term. By “creepy” I mean that he behaves overly familiarly to her, shows her pictures of his family, touches her shoulder — things like that. Small things that aren’t really reflective of appropriate boundaries.

    I don’t think she feels actively unsafe at this point (though uncomfortable, yes), but it just occurred to me: what can she do? Other than push back on the behavior when it’s happening, is there anything else, anyone else she can speak to? I’m more concerned because they’re frequently the only ones in the store and she often closes with him. I tend to be a worst case scenario thinker, and if God forbid something happened in that situation, I’m not sure I’d know what to do.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I would be very worried by this boundary pushing creep. I really don’t know what she can do other that push back when it’s happening,

      Are there are any other co-workers she can speak to find out if this is a pattern of behaviour?

      I know this is a really shitty thing to say*, but could she look at changing her hours so she isn’t closing with him or at least maybe arrange for a friend or family to meet her after work, she could mention to the boss that they are her ride so it might discourage him from trying anything.

      *I hate to say that because the guy should stop being a creep rather than her having to accommodate his creepiness, but if she is worried for her safety its worth considering.

    2. RVA Cat*

      It sounds like low-level “grooming” behavior to me. Does he tend to schedule her in particular (or other girls) for closing shifts rather than rotating between his employees?

      Maybe she could push back by saying she can’t work the closing shift as often now that school’s started? See how he reacts and go from there.

      1. Worst Case Scenario*

        That’s the thing. There are almost no other employees… They’re very understaffed. It’s just 2 managers (he’s one of them), and her, and someone who works in stocking in the back. So not only is it difficult to shift her schedule around, but she also can’t really get a sense of how he treats other employees since she’s the only one in her position. :/

    3. Ella*

      Oh, ugh. I have strong memories of being 17 and not knowing how to handle shit like that. (Which means I also don’t have any fabulous advice about how to handle it.)

      She should practice putting boundaries up around some of the things he’s doing now. Maybe the shoulder touching isn’t so bad, she can deal with it, but the problem is, if she feels shy about saying no to shoulder-touching that she doesn’t like, that skill (saying “stop that” is totally a skill) isn’t going to magically manifest if he does something she’s REALLY not okay with (like touching her breast). Setting up boundaries about the small stuff also makes it less likely that he’ll ramp up any of his behaviors.

      Beyond that, I think what she should do depends on what she wants. If it’s a corporate store, she can call his boss or HR and ask what to do. If there are other employees in the store, she can ask about not being alone with him. The problem is, since they work alone together, he’ll probably be able to guess where a complaint came from even if his boss is discreet about managing her complaint. I don’t think that should discourage her from making a complaint, but she should just be emotionally prepared for fallout.

      I also think she should find another job. Retail jobs are shitty enough, she deserves a store where her co-workers help make the job easier and more fun, not shittier and more unsafe. Especially as a first job, she needs a better model than this douche.

    4. seejay*

      I was 15 when my mom picked up on one of my paper route clients being “creepy” towards me and I didn’t. He was giving me extra money when I told him I was saving up to buy a school jacket and overly friendly and everything. I told her about it because I was excited that the extra money meant I could get the jacket sooner and she went back with me and made me return the money to him. I was mad as hell, because that was an extra $40 I lost out towards a $250 (which is a hell of a lot of money when you’re only making $40/2 weeks on a paper route at 15 years old) but once I got older, I was able to recognize it as potentially predatory behaviour. *Could* it have been just a friendly helpful gesture of a 40-something year old guy wanting to help out his 15 year old paper carrier? Quite possibly. But the other option was too horrible to entertain and my mom was right to err on the side of caution.

      Your friend should trust her gut instinct and if she can’t afford to leave the job, do everything she can to protect herself and set up boundaries. It’s hard at 17 but if she starts now, she’ll be stronger for it as a young woman.

      Assert herself, don’t be meek and mild and let him show he’s intimidating her. This doesn’t mean getting in his face, but a lot of creepers like this rely on women not being able to stand up for themselves. They’re less likely to be pushy against a woman who’s confident. If he’s moving into her space, she should expand the space she’s taking up, either physically with things around her or just by moving herself more, swinging her arms, being “larger”.

      Move away from him, don’t actually let him touch her. And make a point of being obvious about it.

      Make sure she stays in contact with someone about where she is when she’s around him and checks in with that person when she’s leaving. It sounds annoying and frustrating, but if he knows she’s checking in, even if it’s not obvious that she’s “checking in”, he’ll be less likely to be pushy. She can be clear that she’s expected to be somewhere after work or that someone’s expecting her, even if she’s lying, such as “oh, I’m meeting up with Jane after work, just texting to let her know” as she’s walking out. If he knows she’s actively in contact with people, he’ll know that she’s keeping them apprised of her whereabouts, her activities, etc. He’s more likely to back off. If I’m *anywhere* that I suspect I could be assaulted or intercepted by trouble, I touch base with my partner to let him know where I am and that I’m home safe and I’m a pretty independent self-sufficient 40-something year old woman that lives alone, it’s not a bad thing to make sure *someone* knows where you are and is looking out for you. And if something does happen, there’s at least a trail that someone can start at.

      Because of this blog, I’m picking up the book “The Gift of Fear” which is about trusting and enhancing your survival instincts in bad situations. I’ve been able to read and get out of some really scary scenarios before and I think this book will help hone those skills.

    5. Worst Case Scenario*

      Update: Apparently he held her hands the last time she asked to go on break. I think she’s been trying to keep as much distance from him as she can, but seriously, wtf?

      2. Aurion*

        Tell her to get out.

        Unless the other manager has the authority, decency, and willingness to stand up to creepy manager and make it stick, this is not a tenable situation for your friend. The other manager may even be a decent guy, but unless he has all three of the above, unless he can be there when creeper is or has other authority over him, it’s hard for him to protect your friend.

        I would still report the creepy manager if there is anyone above him to report to (is he the owner? Is this a corporate store or a franchise or anything?), but those wheels can turn pretty damn slowly and your friend needs to look out for herself first. Your friend can try enforcing her boundaries and asserting yourself, but from your comments I’m guessing your friend isn’t the loud assertive type (no judgement, I wasn’t and am still not either, and there is a power dynamic here) since she’s been trying to keep her distance. Even if she tries to assert her boundaries it’s very likely the creep will roll over it anyway.

        Get out.

        1. RVA Cat*

          Exactly. She needs to get out. I’m guessing this sicko has a pattern of hiring high school girls to creep on…

      3. Aurion*

        I promise you, there will be other retail jobs. Retail sucks in a variety of ways, but there are a lot of retail jobs and she will find another one that doesn’t have a creepy boss creeping on her.

      4. Lauren*

        Tell her to quit. Now. He is definitely ramping up his behavior and it will not end well for her. There are so many retail jobs and they are constantly hiring. She needs to get out NOW. She shouldn’t give two weeks’ notice either. When it comes down to safety vs. professional behavior, the former wins out. And she can tell future employers why.

    6. Aurion*

      Ugh. I swear to god that finding a woman who hasn’t been harassed like this before is like finding a damn unicorn, and that’s a really sad reflection on society.

      But back on topic. Is this boss the only boss, or is there anyone above him? If there is anyone above him with any shred of decency (or self-preservation in the “impending lawsuit” sense), approaching boss’s boss and saying “Boss has been making me very uncomfortable due to these behaviours” should get a “HOLY SHIT we are never having you two alone together again” reaction. Switching hours can be a solution (a shitty one, because the boss should stop being a creep rather than your friend work around his creepiness) if it’s viable.

      But if there’s no one above creepy boss and changing the hours isn’t possible, then your friend should get a new job. I hate that it has to fall on her like this, but creepers very rarely stay low-level creeping. It almost certainly will escalate, and lord, I still remember the awkward humiliation trying to duck away when mine started hugging me in front of customers.

      It’s been ten years since my experience but just recounting this is making my heart rate spike. It’s not worth it, no matter how good the job is.

      2. Jennifer*

        Yup, literally the only way out is to quit, he will only get worse. Creepers won’t stop unless you’re gone.

    7. Menacia*

      Use your intuition, if there is something about him that is making her uncomfortable, she needs to make a change, either don’t work alone with him (change shifts?), don’t close with him at night, or change jobs where there are more people around. Unfortunately, when you are that young, and you are in a vulnerable situation, anything could happen even if you don’t think it could. I absolutely hate when people touch me uninvited, but I’m very vocal about that.

      1. Alex*

        I hate that the she has to be the one to change her schedule or job around to avoid this. I’m not saying she has to try this at all, I just want to float this idea out there and see if it’s viable. Perhaps the next time her boss touches her like that she could abruptly pull back and appear startled. This will likely surprise her boss then she can just say (in a surprised but not accusatory tone) something along the lines of “I didn’t mean to surprise you, it’s just that when someone holds my hand like that it is usually a parent or a guy trying to ask me out and I’m sure that’s not where your’e going with of these things considering the beautiful picture of your family that you showed me”. Hopefully he responds with that’s not what I meant and knocks off the behavior.

        1. Marisol*

          I like this approach in certain situations, and have used it, although it did not work for me at the time. The problem with these suggestions for subtle hints is that they feed into the notion women get taught that they should not assert themselves. It’s a difference of degree–pulling back and appearing startled is only slightly more assertive than just saying nothing. The response to inappropriate touching should be a qualitatively different one; it should not be subtle, it should be direct: “I don’t like that and I need you to stop touching me that way.”

          It might be different if this woman had a family of four to feed and this was the only job she could get. I would concede then that some tact might be necessary. But this woman is 17 and it’s retail. This is the perfect opportunity for her to practice setting boundaries.

          1. Alex*

            That’s a good point. She has less to lose by being more assertive at 17 in a retail job than if she depended on the job to feed her family. Plus she becomes more comfortable with asserting her boundaries.

    8. Chriama*

      This is a situation that raises all sorts of red flags. I think she should leave if she can. It’s just a situation where she’s too vulnerable – young, not used to standing up for herself, works late at night with no witnesses, etc. Unless she can go to someone above his level (not the other manager who sounds at his level, but someone above him). Is this a chain retail store? I would also make a report to whoever she can even if she chooses to leave because if (God forbid) anything happens with anyone else in the future then it’s on the record that this guy has done stuff like this in the past.

    9. Marisol*

      She should find another job. As others have said, there are tons of other retail jobs out there. If for some reason she won’t quit, then she needs to EXPLICITLY tell him to knock it off. Not just stand confidently in his presence and give off a “vibe” of strength–she needs to USE WORDS to say, “don’t hold my hand. It makes me uncomfortable.” “I am not comfortable with you touching my shoulder. I need you to stop.” And she needs to bring someone into the store (i.e., parent) to hang out for a bit while she works. But really, she should just find another job.

  87. Felix*

    To all the freelancers, bloggers, designers and ppl who own their own businesses- how did you break into working for yourself?

    What do you wish you had known when you were starting out?

    1. JLK*

      From every freelancer I know: building of your Rolodex, honing of what your real skills and services will be, good pricing (not underpricing), and quality projects and avoiding platforms such as Fiverr, UpWork, eLance.

      Most started out as weekend freelancers and the tipping point was the income supplanted their current traditional income, as did their interest in their new work such that they launched on their own.

      Starting a freelance business is just like any business: name, branding, incorporation, accounting (hire or software), outsourcing what you don’t do well, IT help, business planning, and networking. Many of our freelancers do very well working from cowork spaces – the freelancer work environment of today.

      If you’re in Austin, TX we have a thriving freelance community. Look up freelanceconference.com

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I did freelance webdesign for a few years after college and before law school, and the number one thing I wish I’d known then was to always have a contract. It doesn’t have to be fancy and you can find plenty of templates online, but always always always get something in writing and signed before starting any work. If your business takes off, I’m given to understand that it is a very good investment (and less money than a lot of people think) to find an accountant and an attorney you can work with long term, and probably earlier than many people think.

      1. Kittens*

        I am doing this now, and my future-husband successfully did this 3 years ago. He says that despite his skills and talents, it’s still all about customer service. As for how to get the gigs in the first place….On the design end, show your portfolio to anyone who will look at it to get advice, seriously I never realized how many holes I had in my portfolio until I ran it by TONS of people. Current designers are a future designer’s best friend!

    3. Sybil Fawlty*

      So so much to say but will try to keep it short.

      1. Half of your job is networking. Not online, in person. For some reason, at least where I live, face time is crucial.
      2. Change is constant. Watch and listen to your customers, your industry, etc, and be ready to move on whatever you find, because someone else will if you don’t.
      3. A business is as demanding as a baby, but since it doesn’t cry, you have to be super aware of everything you are supposed to be doing (write it down and check it off). Little things like filing get behind and then you can’t find what you know you had, and need urgently. I swear the paperwork multiplies by itself every night.
      4. Hiring people is an absolute nightmare, before, during and after. Especially if you are a one-person business, it’s just so much more work than it saves. I’m never going to do it again.
      5. When you are sick, like I am right now, your business will suffer. Work ahead at all times.
      I hope this helps, it’s hard but very rewarding. Good luck to you!

      1. Bibliovore*

        Face time.
        Value your own time. It is hard to turn down work.
        Put money aside for quarterly taxes (US)
        Save receipts of work related expenses including meals and coffee with prospective clients
        Create deadlines and then add two weeks in case of illness and other interruptions like technology fails.
        Expect to lose jobs even if there is steady work- see Sybil Fawlty- don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
        Have a network of people who do similar work so that when you are too busy to help someone there is someone you can recommend.

  88. SeekingBetter*

    I was recently contacted by a recruiter in regards to a project management position that oversees all creative and marketing pieces at one organization in my area. It’s a 6-month contract position. When I talked with the recruiter, she told me more about the job and I declined to have my application submitted for the position. I’m a web/graphic designer by trade and I did tell her to keep me in mind for future positions involving the actual creation of the projects. I’ve been job searching for a while and haven’t had an income in eight months. I wonder if this was a good move. What do you all think?

    1. ArtK*

      Project management and content creation are two very different things, although a good project manager should know enough about content creation to manage the process.

      If project management is a direction you want to go in, then this would have been an opportunity. Since it sounds like you want to stay on the content creation side, your choice makes complete sense.

  89. Liane*

    I am looking for work now that temporary job has ended, and I am running into a problem with some online applications.
    I have always included my copy-editing gig on applications and resume. It keeps me from being That Unemployed Jobseeker :/ and the company owner is a great reference.
    The Problem: I make a very small amount between my per-article pay (usually 1 article/week) and my monthly editing stipend. When converted to monthly, this comes in under the minimum value the application will accept. Playing around, I have found that to usually be $X, so I have been putting that. These won’t accept left blank/xxx, etc. So I have just been putting down the minimum to get the application to go through.

    Anyone here have a better suggestion?
    Am trying to avoid converting it to hourly, as I really don’t keep track of how long the work takes and would probably end up with an hourly wage that would be too low for the system to take.

  90. LadyKelvin*

    Two good news! 1. I’m defending my PhD in 2 weeks. I am panicking. I think my dissertation is terrible and I have no idea why anyone would want to give me one. Although I understand that this is pretty normal feelings to have at this point, so I’m trying not to dwell on them.

    2. I have a job interview next week! It is with an alum of my current program, he finished a couple of years ago and I remember going to his defense but because he was working remotely and so much older than me I never formally met him. We have mutual friends and I recognized his name and confirmed with our friends that it was him, but I’m not sure if I should mention that I remember his defense in the interview. He obviously knows of the connection since he has my resume, but is it weird to bring up his defense when he doesn’t know me? I feel like we could commiserate about advisors/etc since we have very similar dissertation topics and our field is small but I wasn’t sure if that would be professional or come off as schmoozing. I don’t want to schmooze but it would be nice to have something to small talk about. I’m really bad at small talk.

    1. JOTeepe*

      Good luck! I know this varies from program to program, but when my husband got his PhD he said his comp exams (for candidacy admission/ABD status) were FAR more grueling than the dissertation defense. Remember: your committee wouldn’t schedule your defense if they didn’t think it was ready!

      1. BRR*

        Exactly on the last part. You don’t have a scheduled defense unless they think you’re ready. You would have to forget your entire topic to not pass.

      2. Yup*

        Precisely this! No advisor or committee will let you defend a diss that is objectively “terrible” – you can do this!

        And if you haven’t heard this before, I share with you the oft-repeated wisdom of our DGS: “a dissertation is a diamond in the rough” = all dissertations are mildly crappy. They’re meant to be. What matters are the subsequent publications that build on your research.

        Congrats – this is huge!

    2. nuqotw*

      My gut feeling is that you’re overthinking this one. It’s fine either way – mention it or don’t, whatever feels most comfortable to you. You probably don’t want to have a big conversation about it because you’re at a job interview and the focus should be on interview-y stuff.

      Hang in there. You’re going to get through your defense, and you are going to feel GREAT afterward, and you are going to deserve it (both the Ph.D. and the feeling great part). So many congrats to you.

    3. Ultraviolet*

      Congratulations!

      1) I sympathize with the panic. I think you’ve got the right idea though. And soon it’ll be over!

      2) I wouldn’t open by mentioning his defense–I think it won’t be clear to him what exactly you want to discuss about it, so he won’t know how to respond. I would just say something brief linking your dissertation work to his, which feels like a more natural conversation to me. I also think that commiserating about advisers would tend to be a little too negative for a job interview anyway. For small talk, I’d ask him about how Job City compares to Grad School City. For a more work-related small talk topic, you could ask him what parts of your grad program prepared him well for this job? Or whether he’s used some particular technique/software/theory since starting this job?

    4. mander*

      I think everyone I know who has a PhD thought it was awful and unworthy before their defense. For at least a month after submission I would frequently burst into tears because I was so convinced I would fail. It’s very common!

      (Side note: much to my surprise, I passed!)

      1. Bibliovore*

        Perfection is the enemy of the good.
        Congratulations on your defense. It Will be fine. It Will be good enough.

        Yea!!!

  91. Jennifer*

    So my remaining coworker (who was out having hand surgery) is coming back on Tuesday….but she’s basically unable to type at least for a week and a half. She has a medical appointment there and we’ll see how much or if she gets cleared for more. So I will still be doing all of the typing aspects of both jobs–that’ll still be continuing indefinitely.
    However, since they have to accommodate her on things to do at work…she’ll be doing ALL public service work all the time. And I am being taken off the schedule after today, presumably forever!

    FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Which works out great since they were already “We need everyone to hop on the phones next Monday…” about it.

    Honestly, while the slow-ass transition is kind of frustrating in areas, AT LEAST I WON’T BE DOING THAT ANY MORE!

    In other news this week, I attended a class on bullying, which was interesting. It sounds like they have some entire work group on this and we had ombudsmen from four different locations attending it. They did point out that they essentially write angry letters and they are doing something even if it looks like they aren’t (i.e. the bully ignored the letters and kept up the behavior). They were also trying to encourage people to speak up, but uh…we’re not all in safe situations to DO that without consequences, especially if it’s a direct supervisor who knows it’s you and is vindictive.

  92. Ella*

    Great news! I finally found a job!! I’ve been searching for a job that’s more interesting than my current job for like 3 year now. I’m going to be a circulation clerk at a public library that’s one city north of the city that I currently live (and work) in. I haven’t exactly been sharing the play by play of my job search, but I’ve asked questions both of Alison and the comment section before, and you are all wise and wonderful people. Reading this site and the comments has helped me a lot.

    I hope everyone is having a fabulous Friday!

  93. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hi! Thanks to a reader’s suggestion, there’s now a new way to navigate through the site if you want it. Right below each post (before the comment section starts), there are now links that will take you to the next post and the previous post. (It’s the same as what’s always been at the very bottom of the page, but now if you’re skipping comments, you don’t have to scroll down to click on the next post.)

  94. periwinkle*

    Saw this article and saved it for the Open Thread… Six SF-area tech companies have launched what they’re calling “returnships”, internships for people re-entering the workforce after taking a 2+ year break for caregiving. Basically it’s an opportunity for SAH parents to ease back into mid-career positions via paid internships. Looks like it’s part of a new trend, too.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/08/26/these-tech-companies-are-offering-internships-for-40-something-moms/?wpisrc=nl_sb_smartbrief

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      What a great idea. My mom could use something like this. She’s been out of the work force since I was born, and she has little idea about what workplace norms look like these days.

  95. Sinus pressure*

    I found out yesterday that my boss has applied for me to get executive coaching through our organization’s HR department. I am incredibly grateful for this, because I know that I need to improve as a manager. In fact, if I’d known this was available, I would have asked for it myself, months ago. Not that this kept me from needing to hold back my-boss-thinks-I’m-not-doing-a-good-job tears during our meeting when she told me. Anyhoodle. Anyone have experience working with an executive coach? Advice on how to make the process as beneficial as possible?

    1. JOTeepe*

      No specific advice, but look at it this way:
      If you were my employee, I wouldn’t want you to think that. I would want you to think that I was recommending this and facilitating it because I want you to succeed. She wants you to succeed, that’s why she’s doing this.

      1. Drew*

        +1 — you don’t assign coaches to people who aren’t worth the training. This is a very good sign that she wants you to succeed in your role and thinks you have what it takes with a little help.

        And, really, very few people are natural managers out of the gate. I wish I’d had more coaching when I was managing people; I might still be doing it.

    2. VolunteercoordinatorinNOVA*

      I think being honest with yourself and the coach is key. My former ED had an executive coach and when she would share about it (she had no boundaries) she would talk about her “challenges” which were so minor in the array of problems she had. I think she actually could have been a great leader but her inability to see her weaknesses as a boss didn’t allow to her to make meaningful change.

  96. Lucius Anonymous Seneca*

    So, as a completely hypothetical, let’s say you were at a department happy hour. And let’s say that your boss, who became your boss after your old boss left, told you that he didn’t want to hire you when you first interviewed, and wouldn’t hire you as you are now. If you were in this completely hypothetical situation, would you start looking for a new job?

    1. ArtK*

      Completely hypothetically, I would say that looking for a new job is a very good idea.

      The boss in your hypothetical(!) has made it very clear that they don’t like you. To the point of saying it out loud. That’s as big a red flag as any in this world. You can never expect fair treatment or any opportunity for advancement.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yup, especially your last sentence. This hypothetical manager just told hypothetical employee she does not have much of a future at that company – at least not under him.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I would also hypothetically ask what New Boss expects and solicit feedback on what he would like you to work on. While the brief presentation leans towards New Boss being more of a jerk and less of a coach, having some things to focus on while you’re job searching may improve your situation to a point where he’s not likely to fire you before you find something.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I once had a manager tell me they didn’t want to hire me because they thought my religious studies degree meant I would have a hard time working with the occasionally salty consultants I was assisting, but that she was happy I worked out… I don’t know what I’d do if I was flat out told my manager wouldn’t hire me now. That stinks, I’m sorry.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      YES. That would be a pretty terrible thing to hear and I would immediately lose all sense of safety in my role.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I had exactly that happen to me. I was hired into a position and two weeks later my immediate supervisor quit. Two months later a new supervisor was hired. He took me to lunch and told me that I was not the person he would have hired for my job. It was downhill from there. I wish someone had told me to just start looking.

  97. Kate H*

    I have some questions about confronting my boss about an almost-definitely illegal payment situation. I live in Michigan. Inspired by Allison’s posts about paycheck laws, I found this:

    “(4) An employer who establishes a monthly payday shall be deemed to be in compliance with subsection (1) provided that the employer pays to the employee on or before the first day of each calendar month all wages earned during the preceding calendar month.”

    My boss runs a branch of a certain franchise and she has very, very little business knowledge. She has hired an accountant to take care of our checks. We have never been paid on the first day of the new month. My boss always promises to have our checks on the first workday. The problem is her accountant mails the checks to our office and they almost never arrive on time. For instance, I was supposed to be paid my August wages yesterday (coincidentally the first) but because they didn’t arrive in time, I won’t receive my check until I go back into the office on Thursday the 8th.

    I’m already job hunting and I’m hoping to be in a position to give notice next week. The other employees are family, still in school, or have full-time jobs. I don’t have any other work and not being paid on time this month has put me in a very tough spot financially. I have panic attacks just thinking about confrontation, but I genuinely like my boss as a person and she needs to know this is not okay or legal.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Hey boss, an article I was reading made me curious about the paycheck laws in our state, so I did a bunch of reading on this. I was really surprised to find out that we’re actually doing it wrong here, and we could get in a lot of trouble if someone complains about it. Do you want me to send you the info?”

  98. Office Mercenary*

    Hi! Does anyone have advice about job-hunting long-distance? I just finished grad school and am applying to jobs in multiple countries so I can’t feasibly fly in for every interview or even visit each city to get a feel for what it would be like to live there. Has anyone else been in this situation? How did you deal with interviews? Do you have any advice about comparing salaries, cost of living, etc?

    1. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

      I applied for 100 jobs in the US and Canada when I was moving back from the UK, as well as two jobs in my parents’ home country. I ended up interviewing for 13 jobs, all by Skype. People understood the issue pretty well, but keep in mind some folks might think you’re “too long to wait”.

      There are some really good cost of living comparison tools out there for these comparisons – check out Expatistan. The US and Canada are pretty well covered by Glassdoor.

    2. Chocolate Teapot*

      When I was job searching, very often my interview expenses would not be reimbursed, so I would arrange a batch of interviews in one location over several days and build in some time for “sightseeing”. This would include trying to get my bearings (there are always “nice” and “horrible” areas in every city). Looking at the local newspaper to check properties to rent and the prices is helpful too. I sometimes found job listings which gave salary ranges which gave an idea of what to expect as well, but also, just asking a recruiter for an idea of a range helped.

    3. LadyKelvin*

      I have mostly long-distance interviews because I am also post-grad looking just about anywhere for a job. For the US there are lots of cost of living comparison tools on the web, I like the one from bankrate:
      http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx
      and from Numbeo
      http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

      As for interviews, all of mine have been by phone and skype, I haven’t visited anywhere. But one of the questions I do ask at the end of the interview is how they like living there, how is it different from places you have lived in the past, etc. Usually people are more than willing to talk about moving to a new place. Good luck!

  99. NewBoss*

    Happy Friday!

    I have recently accepted a new position at my company and will soon move into my first role where I will manage people. I alternate between real excitement and terrible nervousness. Does anyone have any tips on not screwing this up they would be willing to share?

    Also complicating things: one of my new direct reports applied for the job as well, but obviously was not successful. Should I acknowledge this with him or only if there are signs of resentment?

    Thanks!

      2. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

        Alison I have a question! Does it make a difference to you, profit-wise, if I buy this from Book Depository rather than Amazon! Living at the end of the earth I like to buy from BD where I can (free shipping yay) but if it screws you, I’ll get it from Amazon.

    2. MommaTRex*

      As someone who has been in the position of not getting the job, I would recommend not mentioning anything. Give them the chance to show you that it will not get in the way of their job and professionalism.

  100. seejay*

    Hey everyone, I’ve posted in another post recently, I’m newish to posting/responding, but been reading for a bit as I’m interested in the articles/responses/posts, etc. I have a varied background all over the place, but my education is primarily in tech (which I know can be a generic catch-all for things). Without delving into it too much, I’ve done the gamut from web development to IT support to security to software engineering.

    I have a little story that came up the other evening when I was talking to my mom about one of the weird wtf’ery events I ran into with a boss when I was working as a PI in the early 2000s. I was technically hired as computer forensic analyst and Internet investigator but when the company that hired me found out I had a strong IT background as well, I wound up being the office goto for any computer issues as well, so I wound up fixing any hardware and software issues (and they stopped calling the contractor they employed for that job). One day the admin came to me because the phone bill for the fax machine had a whopping $300 charge for one phone call to some remote unknown island out in the Pacific and she wanted to know if I had an ideas what it might be. I took a look at it and said it sounded like a dialer virus (those were a thing back then, when land lines were still a popular thing). I started poking around the offices and PCs and eventually wound up in the big boss’ office where the fax machine was, which was physically hooked up to his PC. When I fired it up, one of the first things I noticed was all these icons on the desktop for dialing out to various services, icons that just looked weird and confusing, many of which had some very busty ladies on them. More poking around and I started uncovering some, ahem, pictures of questionable content, which I knew had nothing to do with any of our investigative cases. I called him in and tried to diplomatically ask him if he intentionally had downloaded the ladies without any clothes on or if they were a total surprise to him.

    “Oh no, I did all that, I like porn.”

    “…. ok, well… you know, downloading porn from really sketchy and questionable sites to your office computer which confidential and sensitive information, information that could be required in a court of law as evidence but could now be corrupted or brought into question or could be compromised or stolen because your computer is full of viruses and backdoor trojans and is seriously unsecure despite the firewalls and virus scanners we have in place is *probably* not the best idea?”

    “Where else am I going to get this then?”

    “Um… the way most people used to in the 80s and 90s before the internet? The corner store in a brown paper bag? Why am I even having this conversation? Stop downloading porn on your work computer?”

    I don’t know if he ever did, I mean, he *was* the big boss and he could do what he wanted in theory. I cleaned off as much as I could, it was essentially his problem if the cases fell through, they wound up having to pay the phone bill for the virus dialer (I did find the virus and the war dialer on the PC and removed it but those things are set up to call specific countries where you *can’t* reverse the charges) and I wound up getting laid off in the long run because they didn’t quite figure out how to use my specific skillset to the extent they wanted/needed anyway (which was a blessing anyway).

  101. Quarter Life Crisis*

    I’m a little discontented with where I am in life. I find that my job has had a lot to do with it. I feel like I never get opportunities to grow and it’s super frustrating. At first I thought it was the nature of the work I’ve found myself in (admin support, currently working as an executive secretary), but other people in my position have moved on to bigger and better. And my boss constantly raves about a few people that were in my position and how they were overqualified for it (really, anything above a HS diploma is overqualified for this position but I digress). I feel like they were given latitude and opportunities for development that I haven’t gotten and it makes me sad.

    I just want to know what am I doing or not doing that’s inhibiting me so much? What is it about me? How do I get my boss to see I’m capable of more and help me elevate. I’ve tried and failed at getting ahead by myself. I know I need my manager to help me but I tend to get bored and leave my job before I can establish that kind of rapport.

    I’m planning on going back to school for a master’s in a different field, which will hopefully help me transition out of these admin support roles. But in the mean time, I really need more from my job. More responsibility, more substantive responsibility, and especially more money.

    /end of vent

    1. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      Ugh, that is understandably frustrating. Have you been able to talk to your boss about how you can grow? Or better yet – come up with your own ideas for improvement (maybe a better process for something you do now, or you can come up with things that might help new hires in your area, or maybe you find a course on excel or something else that you could propose to your boss?) That way you’re doing the work of coming up with ideas, and they get to just say yea/nay.

  102. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    My boss is having me write a job description for a teapot analyst dealing in law/figures/teapot differentials. I’m 2 months in or so and he wants me sitting on the hiring board with him/teapot president to suss the potential hires out. Why would somebody want someone new to do this (ie. me)? Also, how do you interview someone? (The bf claims its bc they trust my research/judgment but I have a bad case of imposter syndrome).

    1. Newish Reader*

      Having someone relatively new participate in the hiring process can be very beneficial. Not only do you bring the expertise about your own role, but also a fresh perspective about what it takes to be successful at your company. Employees that have been there for a while may forget what it takes to acclimate to the company.

      And having different people involved can help with ensuring all aspects of the candidates are considered. You may see different strengths or red flags about the candidates that others participating in the hiring overlook.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Quite a few years ago, I was a green and inexperienced admin assistant and was asked to be part of a hiring board. I tried to use it as a learning opportunity and following the interviews I asked a lot of extremely obvious questions from the other (more experienced) board members. They were very patient with me, explained how they reached their conclusions and I really learned a lot from the experience and have been able to reuse what I learned when I had to hire people later on.

  103. Kittens*

    I wrote in to last week’s weekend open thread for advice about making large open-ended decisions, but it looks like the world had a plan already! I have 4 jobs — my primary gig is the most lucrative but in a field I’m trying to leave, the other 3 pay less for more hours but are in my desired field…well, turns out I’m getting laid off my primary gig! Our entire location is shutting down in 6 weeks, it was completely SURREAL to be in a meeting where over 40 people learned they were losing their jobs.

    After the initial panic (we just moved, I’m getting married in 7 weeks, etc.), I talked it over with future-husband and we decided that I’m going to make a clean break from my old industry and roll with being underemployed for a little while! I’m super excited because I’m pretty burnt out (working 7 days a week just sucks) and I have no time whatsoever to work on drumming up my freelance business. So a (scary) yay!

  104. Cactus*

    Attention Pricing/Financial Analysts!

    My SO has an interview on Tuesday for a Pricing Analyst position with a small business in town. He has been working retail for almost 4 years and we’ve been on opposite shifts, so this is a very welcomed change. He is making just under $15 an hour at his current job and has some questions:

    – What is the industry standard for entry level pay? He has a BA in History and does not have any specific analyst experience, though he does have some job-related experiences. The company is known for low pay but excellent benefits.

    – What is a day-to-day like in the field?

    – What are some things he should know about the field before going to the interview?

    Happy Friday, y’all!

    1. Aisling*

      I’m not familiar with the job, but you can always check the Occupational Outlook Handbook (it’s available online) to get some basic info.

  105. Blue Anne*

    I have an offer on the table from a small accounting firm, but I’m not super enthusiastic about it; it’s less money than I was looking for, and there would be pressure to bring in clients as well as doing my normal work.

    I had a great interview early last week for a staff accountant job at a marketing firm and I’m *thrilled* about that opportunity. I think I’m a strong candidate and the interviews went really well (phone interview, then went in the next day to meet the CFO and Controller). They know that I was likely to get an offer from the accounting firm, and that I’m much more enthusiastic about their company.

    It’s been a week and a half since my interviews there and I haven’t heard anything, which I know is totally normal, but I’m a little worried that time will run out on the offer I have in hand. Would it be reasonable to call up my HR contact after the long weekend, explain that I have a definite offer, and check in about timelines? How would I go about doing that? What do I say?

    I’ve never had this situation before!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Question: Are you stuck taking this job to meet the bills or something? Because if you’re not thrilled with the salary they came in at and the requirements of the job, does it have to be all or nothing on getting this other job? Or could you hold out for something else even if neither of these come through?

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah, I’m unemployed right now. I’m totally fine for months money-wise, but I don’t want to use up my savings any more than I have to. Plus, a couple weeks has been a nice vacation, but in a couple more weeks I’m going to start going nuts!

        It was also a personal referral. I’m not crazy about the position or the pay, but I know for sure they’d treat me very well, which goes a long way. After my last experience I would much rather have the accounting job than a random thing I found on Indeed.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Honestly, it sounds like you’re selling yourself on this job – and even if they treat people well, that could be a move that you regret for different reasons in 6 months.

          I mean, you can call the other company and ask if they have an idea of how soon they’ll have a decision, but you shouldn’t mention the other offer again. Because unless you’re a unicorn candidate, for them it would be better to work their process as it works for them.

          But going stir crazy and a personal referral are not good reasons to take a job you’re not enthusiastic about if you don’t absolutely have to. You can say “thanks for the thought, but I think in the end that X portion of the job would make me uncomfortable here and it would end up being a bad fit for us.”

          On the other hand, if you really feel that you wouldn’t mind it that much (and I mean, really feel, not talk yourself into it), is there any room to negotiate that offer for a higher salary?

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Oof, that’s tough. If it weren’t a personal referral, I’d say you could take the first job and continue the interview process with the other one, but I think you really have to avoid burning that bridge.

          I’d call the second company and let them know you have an offer on the table from someone else, but you really want to work for them, and is there anything they can do to speed up the process? You have to do it knowing that they might say no, but if they’re interested in you, they might very well speed things up.

    2. MommaTRex*

      One check in might be fine, just to see how the process is going, but I would question telling them about the offer.

      I’m also questioning if that offer is something you should really take. The pressure to bring in clients is not a small thing. I think one reason I was hired at a small accounting firm was because the managing partner thought I could bring in clients because of my dad (who was a well-known local head of a bank at the time). Just because my dad knew people didn’t mean I knew them! I did good work there, but after a few years I knew I needed to jump ship because the bringing in clients bit was not for me.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I would definitely tell them about the offer. My job moves at a very….relaxed pace in hiring, but we could step it up if we had a reason.

        1. Chriama*

          Absolutely. It’s not an ultimatum, just letting them know the details. “I have an offer I need to get back to by the end of the week, but I’d really prefer to work for you guys. Can you let me know what my chances are and when you think you’ll have a decision?”

            1. Chriama*

              Yeah. Be prepared to hear that they’re not ready to make an offer yet and/or encourage you to take the other job, but it’s totally normal and professional to ask.

  106. Pineapple Incident*

    Trying to stay motivated in my job search… It’s been 2 months since I started applying ferociously to jobs to get away from my admin role, and the work environment just keeps getting worse. I don’t get paid enough here, there is no opportunity for advancement from my role in the direction I want my career to go (technically no advancement at all, since we’re on a hiring freeze). Half of the staff I came to this department to work with have left for better opportunities or school, and the company does another crappy thing every week in the name of budget problems.

    1. SeekingBetter*

      Keep going at it! I know it’s hard to stay motivated. I hope you’re getting some interviews, then at least that’ll help with the motivation.

  107. Purest Green*

    Does anyone else rely on Dropbox to render html content? And has the recent announcement that they’ll stop doing that thrown anyone else for a loop?

    I use Dropbox at work to share files published as htm (not a website) for review. I use it similarly in my personal life for an online portfolio. Does anyone have any free or cheap alternatives?

  108. Catherine*

    I could use some advice on how to handle a weird office social-politics situation! I sent this to Alison over a week ago so I don’t think she’ll have time to address it, but I need outside voices on this.

    Let me say first that I love my job. I first worked here as a junior intern during high school, took a few years away for college and other part-time work, then came back a couple years after I graduated and have since been here for about 4.5 years. I make good money and I genuinely look forward to coming in every morning. Additionally, it would be hard for me to change jobs–lateral movement to another company is rare in our industry, especially for women. Most women I know who try it wind up retiring, changing industries, or needing 5+ years to work back up to their previous level.

    We’ve taken on some interns this year, and most of them are great, but there’s one girl (19F) who has become a problem because she engages in sexually inappropriate behavior towards our boss (40M). She will deliberately drink out of his cup to leave a lipstick mark on it, playfully tugs on his necktie to get his attention, loops her arm through his when walking around, asks him for his blazer when the AC is on. He lets it happen and never tells her off. (Update since I first drafted this: she sat on his lap yesterday in a meeting until he sent her to go meet the delivery guy downstairs. I think the other interns are starting to socially exclude her because they’re uncomfortable with her behavior.)

    We’re a small outfit that doesn’t have HR. I’ve discussed it with the 3 other managers at my level and we all agree that this needs to stop before it blows up. One manager tried to take it up with Intern and got laughed off, even accused of being “jealous” of Boss’s attention.

    We don’t know how to approach Boss about this without putting him on the defensive. How can we get him to draw some very necessary boundaries before this turns into a scandal?

    Additional context: Boss is not great at boundaries with young girls. When I was at the company as a junior intern, the owner of the company made me responsible for catering to Boss’s mental health needs (he has very severe anxiety). I was accessible to him via phone off-hours to talk him down from anxiety attacks, we roomed together on business trips, I gave him shoulder rubs when he was tense… stuff that in hindsight I realize is incredibly inappropriate. It never escalated to anything sexual, which I attribute to sheer dumb luck, because Owner would almost certainly have encouraged that. (He manipulated teenage me by applying or withholding praise in order to make me keep Boss functional, which I only really came to understand a couple years ago. The company has since been sold to someone else, but Boss stayed on.)

    While I was away at college and other jobs, I learned what boundaries were and how to set them, and have not resumed this pattern with Boss since returning. He married his girlfriend shortly after I returned but they divorced last year because she felt he was not enforcing boundaries with his direct reports (three young women in their early 20s, who were constantly texting him after hours). To my knowledge nothing sexual happened, although a different manager who reported to Boss was let go two years ago for abusing his authority to start a sexual relationship with one of HIS direct reports. (Another manager and I were responsible for reporting him so that he was fired.)

    I would feel dishonest if I didn’t add that if Boss steps down, I’d almost certainly be next in line as acting boss which could then escalate to a promotion (this is how he came into power himself!). I am the most senior managers and also the best results on deliverables; I have a good relationship with his assistant; most importantly I have covered his role during times of need before. I can’t pretend I haven’t thought about letting this blow up in his face so that I can ascend to his job, but I feel like I’d be grabbing the helm of a sinking ship at that point.

    I’m sorry this ran so long! What I’m asking, I think, is 1) should we call on Boss to set boundaries or let him shoot himself in the foot, and 2) if we should call for boundaries, how can we do that tactfully?

    1. LCL*

      3. Make popcorn and watch the show. From a distance.
      Seriously, he is sexualizing the workplace. Your whole letter reads like you want to protect him. I would let him shoot himself in the foot. Besides, since you don’t have the authority, what do you think you could tell him that would make him stop?

      1. Dawn*

        Yeah uh…

        This is bananas. BANANAS. Wrong on so many levels, sexual harassment all over the place, absolutely taking advantage of young girls who might want authority figures’ professional attention and who don’t feel empowered to say no or enforce boundaries because they’re so young.

        This is WRONG. Morally, ethically, legally- WRONG. And gross. And it needs to stop, like right now. If you can’t say anything to him to make it stop, report it. Encourage the younger women to stand up for themselves like you had to learn. If they say you’re jealous, say no, and explain why it’s wrong. Encourage other people who think it’s gross to stand up to it. And also start looking for another job because… just oh god, it’s so GROSS and WRONG and ICK. Run away.

      2. Catherine*

        You know, rereading, I see your point about sounding like I want to protect him. I think that’s leftover from how the original owner of the company trained me to babysit Boss, and I need to cut that out!

    3. Purest Green*

      What?! All I can think is that you must work on the set of Mad Men. Otherwise this is real….

      Everything going on is inappropriate. Your boss is and has been inappropriate, the intern is inappropriate, and anyone who has the power to stop this but hasn’t is inappropriate. Good grief!

      1. Catherine*

        A huge problem is that Boss is generally the top authority in the office; the actual owner is so hands-off that I’ve seen him in the building twice in the last three years, so he has never witnessed this stuff. The gender balance in our office is also a mess; Boss and one remaining manager are male. Myself, two other managers, our regular employees, the admin assistant, and all six interns are female.

        (I wish we were Mad Men, then I’d have better wardrobe!)

    4. Manders*

      This is reeeeeeeally weird. To be honest, I personally wouldn’t feel too guilty about reporting this inappropriate boss, even if you do end up with his position. You sound like you’d be a much better supervisor who could set appropriate boundaries, and that’s what’s best for the company and for these interns.

      His behavior is inappropriate enough that even if you do tactfully discuss boundaries with him, I doubt you’ll be able to fix it. He already lost a marriage over this and it wasn’t a wake-up call, so I doubt anything you say to him will be more impactful than that.

    5. Sybil Fawlty*

      You say that if he leaves, you will most likely get his job? Then I would think you’d want to be on record somewhere somehow saying that you disapprove of his behavior and have tried to address it. Otherwise, you may look bad too.

      Why would you feel bad taking his job? He’s terrible and he has to go. I would definitely try to help the situation along. This is a lawsuit or something bad waiting to happen and it could take down the entire company.

      1. Catherine*

        I think it might be less that I feel bad taking his job and more that I’m concerned that I might be accused of having set him up or something (given that the intern is the aggressor between the two of them). But I see your point about getting on the record on this.

        1. Drew*

          It shouldn’t matter that the intern is being aggressive; Boss has to be able to say “This is inappropriate. Stop,” and he’s not doing that. Report him to the owner, definitely, and in the meantime document the hell out of the behavior.

        2. AnonAcademic*

          In my view the intern cannot be the “aggressor” here because the power dynamic is not in their favor, since they are both female and far junior to the boss. They may be the instigator, but Boss is comitting a much bigger sin by not nipping it in the bud immediately and in fact encouraging it. That is a big abuse of power, to allow sexualized unprofessional behavior to continue because it benefits him.

          Given your discomfort with their interactions I’d also argue that you are being sexually harassed.

    6. neverjaunty*

      First, it’s already kind of a scandal, and I doubt Boss is quite as oblivious as you are giving him credit for.

      That said – in these situations, it’s often helpful to phrase this as ‘I know your motives are totally pure, Boss, but this could so be interpreted the wrong way and lead to trouble’. Pointing out that some people might “get the wrong idea” about Intern and Boss, and that if anything went poorly for Intern in her work (like a bad performance review or having to correct something she did), she could file a false* claim for sexual harassment against him personally and the company. People like Boss don’t care if they’re actually doing something wrong, but they do care about consequences.

      Also, RUN RUN RUN from this company!

      *I know, I know. But that’s how you present it to Boss.

    7. Chriama*

      Question: does this rise to the legal definition of a hostile workplace? Your boss is enabling/encouraging sexual behaviour towards him in the office. If anyone feels like that coworker gets better work treatment and/or feels pressured to act the same in order to be on equal footing, wouldn’t that be sexual harassment? I would honestly report a claim and have this guy demoted. I don’t care what sort of anxiety he has, there’s no way he doesn’t know it’s inappropriate to allow it to continue.

      1. Observer*

        I would suspect that if one of the interns complained, it could have teeth. It’s not for nothing that Flirty Intern is saying that the others are jealous of Boss’s attention.

    8. Dankar*

      If you feel like you have a good working relationship with Boss, perhaps it could be a good idea to remind him that you set professional boundaries, and explain to him why you thought it was necessary to do so (appeared inappropriate, could have impacted both your careers and reputations, etc.). Remind him, too, that all these things still hold true for him now, and that he should be the one setting boundaries if she won’t.

      It sounds to me like he should know that all of this is wrong, and that it’s probably not your place to step in if neither one of them want to grow up and act professionally. You can lead a horse to water and all that, unfortunately.

  109. HardwoodFloors*

    Question about giving a reference for someone. I did a temporary position at a very toxic company. I am a professional and worked with a very competent professional who was a full time employees there. After I (happily) moved on on I was contacted by a prospective employer for this employee and was asked reference questions about this person. It was fine that was asked I was enthusiastic about the person but I was a little thrown by ‘why does this person want to leave the position they are now in?’ I said the company was small and there were limited opportunities there for the candidate. I contacted the person (candidate) after the phone call and stated that if I should give a different reason if asked in the future to tell me but didn’t receive a specific answer. Was what I said to prospective employer okay? I feel it was lame but the workplace was so awful I can’t imagine saying anything truthful to a stranger because the downside is not being believed or someone thinking the candidate is desperate to leave.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m sure that’s fine, but also it’s totally okay to say that you don’t know the answer to that (in fact, generally better with reference checks to say you don’t know than to guess).

  110. Dave*

    I think my interview yesterday went pretty well. The guy interviewing me was an acquaintance of mine. (We had briefly overlapped at my former employer), along with an HR person. I felt like it was a good discussion. There was only one weird moment—I mentioned I had been doing a lot of independent learning around one of the relevant areas and the HR person asked what I had done, what I was reading, and so on. I listed a few things, including a Udemy course I’d taken, and she said “Anything online?” I clarified but I just thought it was a strange reaction. Oh well. Probably immaterial to anything.

    Otherwise it was good. I used some of the questions in Allison’s interview guide, which was very helpful. I think it threw them when I asked if there were any qualifications they were concerned about that I could clarify but they said no. They said they’ll be in touch in a couple of weeks. I feel like it is a great fit, but I don’t know how many people they are interviewing or what those people are like so I’ll just have to wait and see.

    Waiting to hear back on another, similar job I applied to at another massive organization. I noticed this week that my application status was updated from “New” to “Your application has been forwarded to the hiring manager,” which is great; also, someone, who I think must be the hiring manager, viewed my LinkedIn profile. Not a bad sign. I haven’t received a formal call-back yet, though.

    Both jobs sound great on paper, though I am a bit more keen on the one I have interviewed for because I know a few people at the organization who have nothing but good things to say. It’s also much, MUCH more convenient to get to.

  111. Elizasaurus*

    Hello everyone! I have a question regarding going from a humanities academic background to one in the sciences. I’m new to commenting, but this seemed like a good place to ask since I’m not ready to let my professional network at large know this is the direction I’m thinking of going in.

    For context: I’ve always loved science, but was told pretty firmly growing up that I sucked at it and I ended up getting a BA in English four years ago. Hated every job I got until I stumbled into a marketing position at a natural history museum and I’M IN LOVE. I’m around bones all day. I get to talk science all day. It’s great.

    I’m taking a biology course at a local community college in a few weeks and my boss has been nothing but encouraging. He’s actually said that in future semesters we can adjust my schedule around my classes! At the moment the classes are just for fun and to get better at talking about my job – but my brain is already racing ahead. If I end up doing okay in my classes and enjoying them like I think I will, there’s a part of me that really wants to go back to school.

    Has anyone else done something like this? I’ve talked to a few scientists who had literature backgrounds, but they all switched majors to the hard sciences before they graduated. I don’t really know of anyone who went from a humanities undergrad to a science grad program, so I’m kind of feeling like I’ve missed my chance.

    1. Manders*

      Oh my gosh, that job sounds INCREDIBLE.

      Can you chat with your boss and other people you see in the positions you’d like to be in about what it took to get to where they are now and what their day-to-day work is like? My biggest concern if I were in your shoes would be that talking about science with the public is a very different experience from lab work and research/advanced degrees/the constant publication grind that you’ll see in some science fields. Do you want to be a research scientist, or do you want to be in a science-related field like science writing, education, etc?

      1. Elizasaurus*

        Yeah, I’m not sure yet. I’m surrounded by research scientists at work and I have to admit it’s got me kind of starry-eyed to see the work they do, but I’m trying to be realistic. It’s a question I may have to revisit after I take a few courses. Not to mention I’d be several years behind everyone else!

        1. Indy, Jenn, and Hannah*

          Its ok to do what you are thinking of doing. you will be years ahead of the science people who can’t write worth much or present data in a compelling way to non scientists.

        2. Bibliovore*

          Don’t worry about being behind. I didn’t find my calling until I was 32. Take classes. Look at other jobs for the future. For instance museum education is a graduate degree. You can pursue that while in your marketing position.

    2. overeducated*

      I think it depends what type of science career you’d be aiming for. There are several great “post-baccalaureate” programs for people who want to go to medical school but don’t have enough science background from undergrad. If you want to do something more research-based, you could look into an MS program because they often admit people with a bit less preparation than PhD programs. Or if you want to stay in the museum world, of course, you could look into schools with dual MA programs or museum studies programs where you have to focus on a specific subject area that would specifically prepare you for natural history museum careers.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      That’s not the only job that mixes science and the humanities — technical writing jobs come to mind. (I’m in medical advertising, and we have copywriters who were English majors and copywriters who were science majors.)

      I would look more into what else is out there, and then figure out whether you must have a degree in the hard sciences to advance. In medical advertising, you don’t (although it certainly doesn’t hurt). In museums…you might? I have no idea! Anyway, going back to school is a huge decision and one I wouldn’t try to do without figuring out whether it’s necessary. I suspect that if you want to stay in marketing for museums, you might not need to, but if you wanted to move into, say, exhibit curation, you would.

      1. overeducated*

        I think your last sentence is on the mark. If you want to be a curator, or in many cases exhibit developer or education director, you probably need a science background. If you want to keep doing marketing or would consider moving into development or administration, you probably don’t. Of course YMMV at different museums and having experience in an institution counts for a lot!

    5. Mockingjay*

      The thing that drives me nuts about majors is that people assume you can’t do anything but what you studied. Of course you can. You simply chose to concentrate your studies in one particular area. It doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything else!

      I started as a Natural Sciences major (Chemistry and Physics), before switching to English, specifically so I could do technical writing. The engineers and technicians I work with are always astounded that I’ve taken more calculus than they could get through.

      I say go for it!

    6. Soupspoon McGee*

      I got a BA and MA in English 20+ years ago, and I just finished prerequisite science courses for PA school. Of course you can make the transition into sciences, and it will open doors for you, whether you stay with the museum or decide to specialize in, say, one particular kind of fungus or neurotransmitter or fossil.

    7. Belle di Vedremo*

      I know people who have done this, in a variety of contexts. Your enthusiasm for the subject comes through here it’ll come through to people in academia if you continue to feel this way as you get more courses under your belt. If you want it, can’t get enough of it, GO FOR IT!

  112. animaniactoo*

    A small gripe:

    When presenting your style guides, please do not describe something as “a fresh new look” when it’s the exact same look and feel that you rolled out 3 years ago. And 5 years ago. And 8 years ago. You can describe it as “playful” “dynamic” “retro” or any other buzzwords you like other than “fresh” and “new”. No, changing out yellow for a 2nd blue while keeping the same kind of graphics and way of implementing them does not change this. Thank you.

    Also, please do not cheese up your presentation. It doesn’t help sell me on your brand. It makes me really really want to stop listening to this presentation and now I have to force myself to keep going. Sigh.

  113. TheLazyB*

    Has anyone ever used Open Refine? Is it as awesome as the videos make it look?? I really want it for work.

    1. An Archivist*

      I use it for some pretty basic things (removing spaces, standardizing terminology). I don’t know if it’s awesome, but it is a pretty useful tool.

      1. TheLazyB*

        I watched the introductory videos on the website. I get very excited about stuff like that. Other people: oh great that looks useful. Me: SQUEE OMG I’M SO EXCITED I MUST TELL THE WORLD.
        So, yeah, that review will do me ;)

        I have to get sign off from a ridiculously high level to get it though. It’s crazy.

  114. LPBB*

    I have been trying to schedule a mandatory meeting with the head of HR for the search committee that I am (reluctantly) heading and I am incredibly frustrated. I’m not sure if I should just chuck it and wait until after the holiday to start over or tentatively schedule something for the one day the HR head and hiring official are available without hearing back from the other committee members.

    There’s a long and confusing backstory to my dilemma, but basically what happened is that I sent an email last week to the HR head trying to set something up for the end of this week and didn’t hear anything back from her. She finally responded with a time to meet to a follow-up email I sent on Tuesday (that I probably shouldn’t have sent but I was in the grip of responsibility panic), but I had to cancel the meeting the very next day (Wednesday) because of a personal crisis. She did suggest some other times and dates, but it looks like only next Wednesday is feasible based on one person’s Outlook calendars and communication from someone else. For a variety of reasons (some valid, but most not so valid), I didn’t email the rest of the committee to confirm their availability for this feasible date and time until yesterday at 4:45. Of course, I haven’t heard back from them yet.

    I’m not sure what to do, mostly because of the long weekend. I feel like I should tentatively schedule the meeting for that one time slot since she is so busy and I don’t want to leave her hanging and then follow up and make sure it’s okay with everybody else on Tuesday. But that won’t give them much time if they overlooked my previous email, plus I’ll run the risk of having to reschedule at the last minute yet again.

    I have to tell you though, this experience is definitely helping me reform my previously lax email responding practices!

  115. KR*

    I’ve been trying to make this part time job turn into a full time job. This has been on-going since the beginning of June, though I’ve been trying to squeeze the 2 functions of this job into 29 hrs a week since January-ish. I’ve also been working another part time retail job 20 hrs a week. We keep getting pushback from the higher-ups and they just said that even if we wrote it into the budget I wouldn’t be able to be full time until March. So I’m done. I told my boss I’m planning on moving across the country with my partner at the end of the year and I believe it’s understood that I simply cannot and will not wait anymore. I’ve been in this job for nearly 7 years – since I was 16 years old. I need a change. I’m so excited and nervous, but I’m ready to work 1 full time job, earn benefits, and live my life with my partner and my fur children.

    1. ASJ*

      Good for you. I think you were right to call them on it. It sounds like the company had no motivation to make your position full-time, since they probably thought you would never walk out the door.

      1. KR*

        Thank you :) It’s local government so they’re always trying to do things as cheaply and bare-bones as possible and naturally everything moves at a snail’s pace. I’m so ready for a change.

  116. nicolefromqueens*

    1) What are some good online crash courses on MS Office (specifically Excel, Outlook, Word) that offer hands-on training? I use these at work, but on a very basic level. Are there any broader courses or trainings specifically for administrative or support positions?

    2) About how far back can coworker references go? How about supervisor / manager references? 

    1. strawberries and raspberries*

      Try gcflearnfree.org. They have really good video modules and tutorials for all versions of Microsoft Office programs.

    3. Callietwo*

      Our local community college offers free MS Office courses that are online and once you take them you can take the MS Office certification test. Maybe check with your CC to see if yours offers them? It is offered through a workforce development grant.

  117. New Bee*

    I’m conducting my first interview process and would love some ideas of good questions to ask. Specifically, I’m looking for someone to design and facilitate webinar trainings while I’m out on leave. What’s most important is that they have the content knowledge–I’ll be training them on virtual facilitation before I take off–but I also want to gauge their design/facil chops around supporting participant engagement, being flexible in the face of tech fails, etc.

    I know what I’m going to ask re: content knowledge, but what are good questions to assess facilitation skills? So far I’ve got “Tell me about a time when something you facilitated didn’t go well. Why didn’t it, and how did you follow up?”

    1. ASJ*

      “Tell me about a time someone had a legitimate complaint about something you facilitated. What was your initial reaction, and how did you follow up?”

      “Tell me about a time someone didn’t have a legitimate complaint about something you facilitated, but was still extremely vocal about it. What was your initial reaction, and how did you follow up?”

      “Tell me about a time you had three different projects on the table, all of which were labeled a priority. How did you handle that?”

      “How would you encourage participation engagement? How have you done so in the past? Can you tell me about a time when you were an active leader?”

      “Tell me about a time when something someone else facilitated didn’t go well where you had an opportunity to make a difference.”

      YMMV, of course.

    2. zora.dee*

      I’ve never actually done this in an interview, or seen it done, but would it be possible to even do a short, mock webinar with them? Give them a topic (a hypothetical one like, how to provide a free puppy to every family) and then have a few people there to role play as participants. Have one person who doesn’t speak up, one who keeps trying to bring up unrelated topics, etc. It could be short, like 10 minutes, and give them warning ahead of time that you’ll do some webinar role playing (because I would probably freak out if I didn’t have time to wrap my brain around the idea before I showed up that day). But it would probably give you a better idea of their skills than asking questions.

      I was in an org where we did a LOT of role playing, and it is the one thing I think they did really well. It’s so different to actually practice than just talking about it.

      1. New Bee*

        That’s a good idea; I don’t think I’ll be able to do it this time (the funds approval got delayed, so timing is tight), but I’ll suggest it to my teammates who are hiring for similar roles.

        1. zora.dee*

          It might be good to add to your training plans, too. Role playing feels awkward at first, but it made such a difference when we made it a habit!

  118. TinyPJM*

    Hello hello,

    I started a new job a month ago and I ADORE it, but…I’ve been going through some personal issues that I am working on taking care of, but my mind has been a bit scattered. I have made a few minor errors (easily fixed, and everyone has been very nice because there is a legitimately steep learning curve in this role) but I just feel..muddy. Any tips or advice for getting it together when your mind is working against you? I am normally extremely organized, so this is a new thing for me. And yes, I am going to start seeing a therapist, but having gone in the past I know that is not a super quick fix.

    Thank you!

    1. ASJ*

      I highly recommend figuring out a system to make notes for yourself. I’m the kind of person who can perfectly understand something, and then the next time I run into go “Wait, what? how did I do this??” so notes can be invaluable for that. Checklists may help, too, if you need something against which you can check each step you’re making. When I first started at my current job, I made up some checklists and had my trainer glance at them to make sure they were correct. I think she appreciated that I was actively working to make sure that I had as few errors as possible.

  119. Nervous Accountant*

    Has anyone been in this situation of TTC while still in early stages of their career?

    Life is finally at a better, more stable point in both career and life. Lately I’ve been thinking a lot more lately where I want to head. I do enjoy my job, I’m fairly good at it, and more so I enjoy working where I am now. I want to stay here for as long as I can until I can go on mat leave. Ideally, I’d like to come back to reduced hours for as long as I can, just to stay active in this field. (that’s my plan for now, of coruse that can change whenever we come across this actual situation)

    Right now, I just don’t need the additional stress or complication of looking for a new job to put a wrench in my plans.
    Is this wrong?

    1. Anxa*

      I am not at all in your shoes, but I can say that it’s been on my mind a lot.

      I’m 30 years old and still working on establishing my career. This is going to sound nuts, but I’m almost okay with it never happening, as I’m so worried that I’ll finally start to get some momentum and then duck out at a critical moment to have kids. I know many people wait until well after 35, but I have a strong preference to have them before that time. I already have signs of diminish fertility.

      Such a catch-22 because of course if I don’t have a career to lose, I’m less likely to have the money to afford to have children.

      I almost wish I had been a little more reckless and gotten married and had kids before I was established. They could be school aged by now and I’d be in a similar place career wise.

      1. overeducated*

        I hear you on that. I had my first in my last year of grad school because I couldn’t see a time in the future when I would have the same flexibility. Since I’m not in a permanent position with benefits now, I’m not sure when I can have another, even though I really want a bigger family. I sort of wish I’d started earlier, too!

        The catch-22 there was that I have never had the desire to be a single mother with a low income, but I wouldn’t have had a partner if I’d started earlier :P At least not a partner who was ready for kids at that point, and that would’ve been very challenging in its own way. Biological clocks, careers, and romantic luck don’t always work on the same timelines and they’re not entirely in our control.

  120. shep*

    I have a YouTube channel that I maintain as a hobby, but it’s actually starting to generate some revenue for me! This is exciting but also a little confusing, since I assume I have to report earnings next year on my tax return forms.

    I probably have a myriad of questions I don’t even know I need to ask yet, but they probably stem from these:

    -Is there a threshold above which I have to report?
    -How/on which form is it reported?

    Thank you all!

    1. MommaTRex*

      Dang, it’s been a long time since I did taxes, but you might be looking at line 21 on your 10 for miscellaneous income or schedule C if it is going to be a full-on business. Check out IRS publications 525 and 535. Keep all your receipts. Consider getting some real tax help, especially for your first time reporting.

      P.S. Here is an excerpt from publication 525 about hobby income:
      “ACTIVITY NOT FOR PROFIT: You must include on your return income from an activity from which you do not expect to make a profit. An example of this type of activity is a hobby or a farm you operate mostly for recreation and pleasure. Enter this income on Form 1040, line 21. Deductions for expenses related to the activity are limited. They cannot total more than the income you report and can be taken only if you itemize deductions on Schedule A (Form 1040). See Not-for-Profit Activities in chapter 1 of Pub. 535 for information on whether an activity is considered carried on for a profit.”

        1. nonegiven*

          It may just be a small hobby farm they do for fun. Like a guy who raises miniature horses because he loves them, then ends up selling a few and making profit, but not really enough to call it a living. An avid gardener with a road side stand to sell off the excess.
          There are criteria to tell when it’s a hobby and when it’s a business, mostly to do with how many years there is a profit.

    2. Cactus*

      I can’t be much help but from what I understand, you have to report any earned income. Hopefully someone else will chime in with more detailed answers!

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      People may say that you do not have to report earnings from one source under $600, but that is false; the requirement is that those PAYING $600 or more to one person generate a 1099-MISC for you. If there is no 1099-MISC, chances are you can get away with not reporting it, just like you can usually get away with speeding in many situations, but that doesn’t mean it’s legal. 1099-MISC is standard for task-based payments like secret shopping or Amazon Mechanical Turk as well as the standard “contractor” jobs.

      1. shep*

        Thank you! I’m assuming that’s $600 or more annually, correct?

        I’m not sure if Google/YouTube issue 1099-MISC forms…but I also don’t see how they couldn’t since they’re such large entities. Perhaps I should poke around my AdSense account and see what I can find. I’m very pleasantly surprised by this income, as it’s taking a sizable portion of financial burden off of me (hello, graduate loans), but I’m afraid of doing anything incorrectly come tax season.

        Thank you all again!

        1. Lily Rowan*

          If you’re nervous, I’m pretty sure you can just add misc income into your income total without having any backup. At least, I’ve done that when I didn’t have a 1099 (although I did eventually get one in that case), and I think I had reason to believe that was the right thing to do?

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Yes, sorry, that’s annually. And it is required that pretty much anyone who pays anyone miscellaneous income of $600 or more per calendar year issues a 1099-MISC, but most don’t issue it under that amount 1) to save money on paperwork, and 2) because let’s face it, people doing these tasks often don’t want to pay taxes on the income, so they’d consider it a pay cut if a 1099-MISC was issued for $500 of income, because they now have to pay taxes on it.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          They will definitely send you a 1099-MISC if you earn $600 or more with them (and maybe even if you don’t), without question. They’re legally required to.

          If they pay you by PayPal, this is slightly more complicated. PayPal will issue you a 1099-K for the income sent through them, and it will duplicate what’s on the 1099-MISC from Google/YouTube, and there’s an (easy) procedure for explaining that so you’re not taxed on it twice.

    2. zora.dee*

      Is there anyone who is at least mildly sympathetic enough to do some unscientific experiments with you? Help count how many times women/men talk in meetings? Or whether a guy gets a different response to an idea than a woman saying the same idea?

      In an 8th grade math class, we spent 2 weeks tracking how many times the teacher called on boys vs. girls and then presented the results to the teacher. Who was a woman! And was horrified herself that there was such a disparity, because she thought she was aware of the issue. She made a concerted effort to change the situation, though, and it was an amazing learning experience for all of us!

  122. Anon Too Fast*

    I recently received a speeding ticket for speeding in a speed zone. I believe the officer is probably right and that I was probably speeding. I was coming home from work earlier than usual and forgot that the speed limit was in the school zone period (I was going 39 in what’s usually a 35, but which was in a 25 mph phase) (school just started this week).

    Does anyone know if this will show up on a background check? I know that some employers may not care, but I think others may (I am applying to some jobs in higher education, so the school zone things may matter). I’m currently looking for a job. I can’t afford to do my current job at my current pay much longer as my family is moving out of state for a new job.

    I have never received a ticket before and I’m pretty scared. The ticket is $450 plus I’ll probably have my insurance go up. As daunting as that number is (it’s 5% of my annual income), if I could just get a good job it may not be as big deal. I was planning on maybe having quit my job and moved out of state with my boyfriend by the time my court date comes around and had JUST told my landlord and boss about leaving (about 2-3 weeks before the court date). Traveling back into town would be way cheaper than the ticket if I have a chance at reducing it. And it may be worth extending my lease, as I’d have a few more weeks income then and my rent is not much more than the ticket.

    So my work related questions are:
    -Will this show up on a background check?
    -How do I let my boss know that my situation has changed and I’m less sure about my potential last day (I wanted to give him a heads up as my schedule is fully loaded and 40 clients would have to be reassigned). I don’t want to let him know I have a speeding ticket.
    -For those in NC, does anyone know if I Prayer for Judgment has any background check implications?

    [I’m really shaken up over this. I’ve never sped on purpose and am usually always stressed at having to keep up with the flow of traffic when it’s unsafe not to, because I’m always thinking about how just because these other cars don’t seem to worry, I can’t afford a ticket or a lawyer.]

    1. animaniactoo*

      It could show up on a background check, depending on how thorough they are. However, unless there is any aspect of your job that is driving related, and generally even then, no reasonable employer will care about a single ticket. Even a higher ed employer and a school zone violation. Things happen. People know this. So even if it shows up, I would not worry about it.

    2. Cactus*

      Hi Anon! NC Highway Patrol family member here – I passed on your question and they replied:

      “The ticket will show up as a regular speeding ticket and unless your job is focused on driving or your employer pays your insurance you shouldn’t have an issue. It may go up depending on you insurance company but that doesn’t always happen. You may be able to get a PJC but each county is different and it shouldn’t affect background checks unless it is a job that focuses on driving.”

      They also said that a school zone ticket is very expensive (as you know). As a side note, this Trooper got this same citation while in high school and it did not affect their ability to join law enforcement a few years later. :)

    3. Ella*

      I am not any sort of lawyer, but does the ticket say you HAVE to go to court? Typically, if you pay the ticket, you don’t have to go to court. It’s only if you plan on contesting the ticket (that is, pleading not guilty) that you have to go to court. You should be able to pay your ticket online, even. The chances of getting the ticket outright dismissed are really really low (at least, in Colorado, where I live), and I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating a ticket down, though that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Some states do payment plans so you don’t have to pay all at once, though I don’t know if NC does.

      I’m not going to post a link because it’ll go into comment limbo, but if you google your state and DMV, it’ll bring you a lot of information about how to pay and stuff. I’m pretty sure background checks don’t turn up traffic violations (or if they do, an employer won’t care). Background checks are interested in crimes committed, not traffic tickets.

      And hey–I hear you’re stressed. I definitely freaked out the first time I got a speeding ticket (which was basically exactly the same as yours). But don’t worry! Tons of us get speeding tickets. It happens. I promise it won’t ruin your life, and very few people will judge you. Personally, I would keep moving forward with plans to move and don’t let getting a ticket derail that. But it is an expensive ticket and it sounds like you don’t have a job lined up, so I can’t judge for you how finances will impact your choices.

      1. Natalie*

        You can definitely get a ticket negotiated down, I’ve done it in Minnesota and actually in Colorado, oddly. (Traveling through the area and got caught in what was clearly a speed trap. My ex basically had to call the judge a bunch of times and pester them nicely, but it worked.) There’s no guarantee, but if you have the time, it’s worth talking to the judge. That last time I did it I also didn’t have to go to a court hearing, I just spoke to the judge in their office.

        1. Chriama*

          How does negotiating a ticket down work for you guys? In my corner of Canada if you show up at the courthouse before the scheduled court date you can talk to a justice of the peace and just ask for a reduction. They usually bump you down to the next tier of offense and lower the demerits and $ correspondingly. I’ve heard that the rationale is that they’d rather have some money than none and if you do go to court to contest it then it’s a waste of money to have the judge and police officer there. I’m honestly really surprised that it’s not a thing in the states, given it’s reputation as the land of capitalism. Why is that?

          1. Anon Too Fast*

            While the $450 + insurance points + court date is a huge financial burden for me, I will be able to do a cash advance on my credit card and will likely be avoid to forgo car insurance if need be (which would affect my opportunities, but not cause immediate eviction or default). So I do not have to worry about arrest or a huge pile-up for fines.

            In the US you can negotiate fees down (although maybe it helps to have a lawyer) but it’s really case specific I think and some counties don’t allow it.

            I’m not sure what you’re prison system is like in Canada, but the US has some pretty strange financial incentives regarding corrections, with private prisons and private probationary collections. I don’t think it applies as much in my county, but people here can end up in jail or owing many times their initial fines over not being able to pay.

          2. Natalie*

            In CO we had to call, because we were on a trip and way out of the county by the next business day. My boyfriend at the time was mostly concerned about the points (the systems were different between CO & his state but the points didn’t scale, so he would have had his license suspended for 6 months because of a 5-over ticket) and I guess the judge just felt bad for us and knocked $40 off. It definitely helped that the ticket was sort of bogus in the first place.

            My experience in MN was the same as yours, I just went to the county office before my court date. You take a number and talk to a judge.

            I don’t know why people don’t do it more. A lot of people I’ve met seem to believe you need to plead actual innocence, maybe that’s why they don’t try for “I did it, but c’mon this fine is huge.”

            1. zora.dee*

              Because sometimes it just would take longer than people have. In my county, you have to show up at the courthouse at about 6:30am to have any hope of getting in, there is a giant line at 8am, and then you have to wait in 3 different lines to finally talk to the judge, so it can literally take all day. It’s insane.

              But yeah, people should do it more, some counties I think are funding their entire government off of huge traffic ticket fines, it’s ridiculous.

      2. Anon Too Fast*

        I don’t have to go to court if I pay the full fine. Only then I’d have to pay the full fine and have no chance of having it dismissed or reduced and I’m more likely to have insurance points.

        Fortunately the court date is a date I don’t have work anyway, but if I were to have the ticket dismissed it would be well worth the cost of extending my lease two weeks (our landlords are pro-rating it).

        The officer did comment that the DA (well, ADA) may dismiss it, but I don’t know if that’s possible for school zones or even common.

        If my insurance rates go up enough, I may just choose to stop driving (except the occasional airport or favor) as I don’t have my own vehicle and I wouldn’t have a job to go to right away.

        1. Natalie*

          Give it a shot! It sounds like it won’t cost you money or PTO, what do you have to lose? Unless you start swearing at the judge or something you’re not going to walk out of their owing more money.

    4. zora.dee*

      Don’t worry about background checks at all!! It will show up on some background checks, depending on what they run, but it will show as a ‘Citation’. The places I have worked, even schools screening employees and volunteers, do not pay attention to citations, only misdemeanors or above. Unless it is some crazy pattern of like dozens of traffic violations over years, but even that would probably only lead to prohibiting that person from driving minors in their car.

      So, put that part out of your mind, and concentrate on the cost/insurance/ticket issues that you need to deal with. That stuff is kind of complicated, but try calling or physically going down to the courthouse, sometimes they can be much more helpful in walking you through your options.

      1. Anon Too Fast*

        Yes that’s such a great point. I’ve been worried that the ADA will think I’m just trying to completely get out of it or that I’m looking for advice since i can’t afford a lawyer (although I may have to just get one).

        I would rather try to work something out (alternative court dates, payment plans) than fight the ticket outright, as I do think I most certainly deserve to be penalized and it feels so smarmy to me to try to argue some of the technicalities. I just worry that then I want have the option to fight it as I’ll admit to some level of guilt. To me, this amount of money far exceeds the realm of penalty, while doesn’t nothing to deter me from speeding or increase safety. In fact, I’ve had a new pair of windshield wipers near the top of my “when I can afford to buy things again” and this will probably bump it back to being on my Christmas wishlist.

        Asking what my options are is probably my best bet, thank you.

        1. zora.dee*

          But people do try to get out of these things all the time, and that’s not going to surprise them. And it’s unlikely to make them treat you much worse in retaliation. It’s not that big of a deal, it’s just a speeding ticket. I know it’s scary when you haven’t dealt with this stuff before, but from the government’s perspective it is so routine, I promise. So, try to take a deep breath and tell yourself that this will be okay, and you will figure something out.

          They also have LOTS of experience with people who can’t afford to pay tickets in full immediately. That is also not a surprise to them. I have completely been in that position, so I totally sympathize. It definitely depends on the jurisdiction how lenient they are and how many options they have, but in my experience there are always multiple options: you can go into the courthouse (sometimes they’ll let you come in early before your court date) and automatically reduce the fee by a certain amount, they will let you establish a payment plan, they will let you do community service instead, etc. They totally do this every day. So, definitely call them, or go in person, and ask, and tell them that you were planning on moving by X date. I really really think they will have some options that work better for you. And I don’t think you will have to put off your move!

          big hugs, I hope this works out quickly, and definitely come back and update us!!

          1. Anon Too Fast*

            Community service would be a godsend! I have no dependents and more time than money right now.

            1. zora.dee*

              Well, just to manage your expectations, for a $500 ticket, I had to do so many hours of community service it took literally months to finish. I can’t remember what the relation was of hours to dollars, but it was crazy. But I thought it was worth it. But it might also result in delaying your move, I don’t know what your timing is like.

            2. PeachTea*

              Check with your state too about court costs. If you choose to fight it, you’ll have to pay those too as well as the fine. My husband fought a ticket for illegal window tinting. We had bought the car, tinting and all, from the dealership. And we had the pictures of the car on the lot to prove it. It’s clearly illegal to sell a non-street legal car so we didn’t see how we could be faulted for reasonably assuming the tinting was within the legal levels. The judge agreed and he dismissed the ticket, but we still had to pay like $90 in court costs. Much much less than the ticket would have been, but it’s definitely something to think about.

              1. Anon Too Fast*

                In my state I believe you pay the court costs regardless of whether you pay the fine online or go to court. About $200 of my ticket is court costs.

            3. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

              I also know someone who was able to get a speeding fine reduced, for a very high construction zone fine in his case. He went to court and was very polite. He admitted the offense and asked for leniency in the fine amount because it was more than a week’s pay and it was reduced, I think by half. It was also his first ticket. I think you should try. Good luck.

  123. Anon Today for Reasons*

    How can I talk to a coworker about bringing fish and other smelly food into the office? There have been multiple emails about open-office etiquette (no shouting across to each other, no smelly food, keep your noise to a minimum when possible, etc.), but this coworker continues to bring strong-smelling fish and other foods into work. I would let it go if they ate it outside, because that wouldn’t stink out the office. But this coworker brings fish in and actually cooks it here! Think raw fish in an oven to make their lunch. If that wasn’t bad enough, they often put tarter sauce on a bagel and toast it while the fish is cooking!

    I’ve got a somewhat sensitive nose, but I try to be understanding and not make trouble for anyone. But this is just too much! I literally had to leave work early because I felt nauseated by the smell. Only one other smell will do this to me– Wetzel’s Pretzels (weird, I know), but I simply walk a different way around my local mall to avoid it.

    How can I ask this coworker (who has gotten these emails) that they should maybe refrain from cooking their fish in the office? It’s more complicated because we are in different departments, and this person has no sense of smell (a childhood accident or something, they said). I have no authority over their department, nor does my boss. That department’s boss doesn’t care (nor does he sit close to where the smell comes from), so I can’t ask him to do anything. Help!

    1. animaniactoo*

      If they have no sense of smell, it sounds like the first step is to let them know how strong the smell is AND how long it lasts. “Angus, you’ve said before that you don’t really have a sense of smell, so I’m not sure if you know how much of an impact it has when you’re cooking fish in the office. It’s such a strong smell that I can smell it even when I’m at my desk 3 doors down from the kitchen. It lingers for an hour or more after you’ve finished.”

      Break for “oh, I didn’t realize, is it really so bad? nobody else has said anything. etc. etc.”

      “Most people think it’s a pretty unpleasant odor. I admit that I’m one of them, but it’s not something limited to me – if you do a little research, you’ll find cooking fish in the office is a common thing that people complain about at work.”

      1. Anon Today for Reasons*

        Thanks, I will try this when I see them on Tuesday (we were just dismissed from work early because of the holiday weekend.

        If it doesn’t stop after that polite conversation, how should I proceed? This isn’t really an HR issue, it’s more of an inconvenience.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It sounds like it is an HR issue – you have company wide e-mails about not cooking smelly foods and this person is cooking smelly foods.

          However, I can understand why you wouldn’t want to go there. What you might want to do is research how you can limit impact on you. While I haven’t played with them, I know people who swear by using essential oils to dab just below your nose so that the main thing you’re breathing in is an aroma that’s pleasant to you.

    2. Belle di Vedremo*

      You may not feel you can go to the offender’s boss, but you can go to your own. Your boss presumably doesn’t want to lose you to someone else’s cooking/lunch, and that’s certainly something s/he can take up with the offender’s boss and/or give you suggestions on what to try, first.

  124. Ashie*

    I moved to a new city last year to take a job in my small nonprofit industry. Last week I found out that a friend from back home just moved here too to take the ED job at a similar nonprofit that is somewhat of a competitor. Good for her! We’re not super close our industry is small and we like each other, and I’m happy for her – sort of.

    The organization she joined has had five – five! – different EDs in the last 6 years. The organization’s founder, 30 years ago, is still the president of the board and it’s still her baby. She has a reputation in the community for being two-faced. Many of the staff and donors at my organization came from there because of her. I’m so worried for my friend! I have no idea if she knows the history of her new position. We’re having drinks this week, should I ask her about it?

    1. Dawn*

      YES talk about it with her! Probably not in an “OH MY GOD THIS PERSON IS TERRIBLE SUSAN YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED!!!” But just share what you’ve heard and ask if she’s heard the same things.

  125. Golden Maple*

    Here’s a little success story I wanted to share with everyone.

    I specialized in selling kids tea party accessories and work with clients on creating the perfect kids tea party. My boss has been pretty hands off, since he is in charge of both my department and the seasonal holiday Halloween/Christmas tea pots. The seasonal department takes up nearly all his time, so he’s been leaving kids tea parties for me to run for the last two years. Other department managers have commented to me that it isn’t fair that I do most of his work, with one person (who I dubbed Angry Manager) constantly making snide remarks about how she’d do a better job than him and constantly nit-picking my performance.

    At the beginning of August, the company started implementing measures to streamline expenses. One of those measures included drastic payroll cuts for my department. At first, it looked like it was only temporary. My manager and I discussed what we needed to remove from my daily routine in order to make sure the important things were covered in a shorter time frame. However, on my boss’s first day off, Angry Manager confronted me. “Your position is being eliminated. You work for me now. Your boss should have told you that already,” she told me.

    I went straight to the head of HR, who reassured me that my position was not being eliminated and that she would talk to Angry Manager. Still, I was pretty freaked out. I had just left a toxic relationship in July, one where my partner kept telling me that I could never leave him because I wouldn’t survive without his money. I needed to be sure that I had a job to support myself.

    I started networking with other department managers to pick up extra shifts in areas where they were short-handed. Not only did I pick up enough hours to stay full time, but I even found one department willing to pay me overtime when they were in a bind. I started combing through our open positions database, applying for jobs at other locations. One day, a customer service assistant manager position for my location showed up in the database. I applied immediately. It took them two weeks to get back to me for an interview, but I had back-to-back interviews this week.

    Yesterday, I found out that I had gotten the job! It will be a set schedule, a steady paycheck, and I will no longer be doing my manager’s job or be in Angry Manager’s firing line.

    3. Belle di Vedremo*

      You should be really proud of yourself! Leaving behind people who are mean and manipulative go forth and SHINE!

  126. Librarian Ish*

    Met up with a friend last night, and she told me that she’s struggling in her internship. Why? Because they expect her to do all the grunt work, they don’t give her the same consideration that the permanent employees get, and they keep getting upset with her and having to re-do her work, which in her mind is completely unacceptable. In order to get around the edits, she’s teared up at work, on purpose.

    Ohh it was a painful conversation. I kept being like, “You know, there’s this great website…” but who knows how much she heard.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’m glad you’re there for her.

      It is awfully uncomfortable to see someone you care about screwing up and not being able to recognize it.

  127. Mallows*

    OK, I’ve only commented a few times but fervently read AAM. I spent the whole winter flying just about every week from the east coast to the midwest (and I’m a very anxious flyer), preparing for a software release. I put my whole life on hold, basically, for 6 months. Thankfully, I enjoyed the work. I volunteered for this effort because I wanted to make connections that would allow me to move west.

    Result? I think next week I’m going to get a job offer, allowing me to live wherever I want, doing similar work to what I did last winter. I am bouncing off the walls and am afraid to jinx it by telling friends and family just yet, but online feels less like tempting fate :-) Wish me luck!

  128. likeyoualatte*

    Hi, all! I’m in the middle of a quiet, cross-country job search to move from the Midwest to Los Angeles to join my partner (he’ll be there for the next few years for work.) But I’m quickly getting discouraged by the lack of response. Any tips for hanging in there?

  129. VolunteercoordinatorinNOVA*

    How do people stop caring so much about issues at work that you can’t change? I coordinate volunteers for an organization that has volunteers in a few different locations and doing different tasks. When I came in I was managing just our office volunteers and volunteers who are out on our job sites. We have a retail side which I didn’t manage volunteers for. A few things have gone wrong with volunteers at the retail side so I’m now being asked to now manage scheduling for the program. The problem is that scheduling is such a tiny part of this problem and the director of the stores doesn’t see that. He just keeps making excuses and it’s becoming more frustrating for me. My organization is super slow to make changes and I honestly think he doesn’t want to look at the real issues (his staff). I just feel like this is one issue among many where my senior staff is unwilling to really look at what issues are and change them. We talk a lot about the problems but not about the solutions. I am getting more and more frustrated but am not ready to leave my job. If anyone has any tips, please let me know!

  130. chickabiddy*

    I have been waiting for Friday to share this from my local paper. Quite possibly the worst business name ever: “Abattoir Properties of [city] has submitted to the Village of [village] a site plan for a 54-unit independent living complex for older people.”

    2. Manders*

      Part of me loves how terrible that name is and wants to know where it came from. Is it a family name? Did the company start out building slaughterhouses before branching out? Did the owner just think it’s a pretty word?

      For some reason, in my city, every apartment or condo complex has a unique name. They’ve run out of all the good ones and some of the new buildings going up have very weird names.

    7. LCL*

      Please tell me English is not the first language of the country this will be located in, and not the first language of the company, and they chose the name because it sounded cool.

      1. Liane*

        Or French! Per Google Translate, the French word for “Abattoir” is…
        “Abattoir”!

        (I knew it was French derived, but didn’t know it was the exact.same.word. before I checked.)

      2. chickabiddy*

        This is definitely in the United States. I do not know anything about the company other than the blurb in the paper.

    8. Sybil Fawlty*

      Possibly a Halloween themed facility? With Typhoid Mary as director of food services and Marquis de Sade activities director?

      Sounds like a Simpsons episode.

    9. Tomato Frog*

      Not quite so egregious, but I’ll never forget hearing about a housing development that was being advertised as “A fine and private place.” Perhaps it was also run by Abattoir Properties.

  131. ARLCF*

    I would love some feedback on an issue I’m having. My work team has grown from 4 to 8 employees over the past year (we do grant-funded work, and got a big grant for a project). So we have 2 team managers, 1 other project manager, and then the rest of us are in “assistant” roles, but we are at different levels with different responsibilities and different salaries.

    We generally get along, but there is some dysfunction – I have issues with one of my managers, and team issues with another manager who basically is bad at his job and it affects all of us.

    Late last year, our 2 team managers started scheduling out-of-office lunches for everyone’s birthday at nearby restaurants, plus a post-lunch dessert. The manager of the person whose birthday it is pays for that person’s lunch and dessert for the group, but the rest of the team pays for their own meals. Our entire office also has potlucks twice a year, and our team goes to lunch at a nice restaurant the week before Christmas. All of these are nice gestures, but it’s ending up to a total of about $200 per team member per year (and more for managers) – so not super expensive, but certainly not nothing. No one was asked whether this was prohibitive financially, or even given the reason why they decided to start celebrating people’s birthday; they just started scheduling them.

    I should mention that no one said the lunches were mandatory (but no one said they were optional either), but our team is small enough that someone’s absence would very much be noticed. So if you don’t go, it could look like you don’t want to celebrate the person’s birthday. Or if you say you don’t have enough funds, or just get soup, someone would likely notice and say something, like “why are you only getting soup?” It just creates awkwardness for everyone involved because money is weird. You can recognize a birthday without spending money!

    A few weeks ago, one of the managers scheduled yet another lunch as a going away gift to our summer interns. She scheduled it the day before the lunch was going to happen, and I did not want to spend the money, so I told her I couldn’t go. No one said anything to me, and I don’t know if anyone asked why I didn’t go. I think they just assumed that I couldn’t get away on short notice because I was busy. Earlier in the summer, she had also invited everyone to a potluck picnic at her house on a weekend. I told her I couldn’t go, but when she offered to reschedule so I and a few other people could attend, I politely told her that I wouldn’t be going at all because I didn’t want to give up part of my weekend to hang out with people I see 40 hours per week, or spend the money on food (not verbatim, but that was the gist of it). She looked at me like I had 3 heads (like why would I not want to do this?), but got over it.

    After my manager sent the appointment for the intern lunch, I declined the appointment and responded that I wanted to speak to her about this. In my response, I told her that a lunch for everyone’s birthday, plus everything else we do, is too much. My birthday is the next one on the team, and I told her I didn’t want a lunch or a dessert – basically, I didn’t want anyone spending money on my behalf. I met with her in person yesterday about it (we have monthly meetings with our managers, so this wasn’t the only topic, but I brought it up again), and she was pretty straightforward about it, but honestly, a little cold. She said that they are still going to have the lunches because it’s part of their desire to build team morale, but that I don’t have to go. I imagine that someone is going to try to get dessert for me, but I really hope they respect my wishes for no lunch.

    I’ve spoken informally to another team member about the lunches, and she generally agrees with me, but not enough to push back. I have a major problem with basically charging a fee to build team morale. The lunches have not helped team morale, because the manager who sucks hasn’t stopped sucking, and we haven’t stopped venting to one another about it.

    So am I off-base about this? I don’t know what to say if someone asks why I didn’t go to a lunch. I’m also secretly hoping that my absence will empower others to decide they don’t want to spend the money either. Or maybe not, but at least I know I said what I needed to say.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!!

    1. MommaTRex*

      You are not off-base. This seems to be a common problem that comes up a lot on AAM. Team morale building that has the opposite effect! I think you are doing the best you can to push back. Maybe for your next birthday, suggest something like popsicles in the lunch room – so you are still having a celebration.

      1. AF*

        Thank you for your suggestion! Yes it is a common issue – and I’ve read all the previous posts for advice. I recognize that maybe I’m ruining other people’s fun, but I just want to come to work, get paid, have some friendly chats with coworkers when we have time, and go home.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      You’re being totally reasonable. I have dietary restrictions that mean I cannot eat birthday treats, and rarely am I able to go out to lunch. You can just say “I prefer not to celebrate my birthday at work, and I hope everyone will respect my wishes. As kind as the gesture may be, I especially do not want anyone spending money on my behalf.”

      Is there some way you can remove your birthday from public access? I didn’t want my coworkers to know when my birthday was, so I removed my name from the list.

      1. ARLCF*

        Thank you!! Re: the public posting of birthdays – the manager who organized the lunches puts them on a staff directory list, which includes our email addresses and internal phone extensions. I think she thinks that because she likes celebrating, that everyone else does. I love my birthday, but I take vacation during that time because I don’t want to celebrate it AT WORK. I could ask to have it removed, but it sticks out. Team cohesion is very important (as it should be), but I can be friendly without having to spend money to celebrate everyone’s flipping birthday!

        Part of the interview process is that we go out to lunch with candidates (thankfully this is paid for), to make sure that they are friendly and sociable, because that’s the team culture, and most of our jobs require it because we work with the public. I’m all for being friendly, but conversations do get a little personal. When I told the boss I couldn’t go to her picnic (via email), she asked me in front of everyone what I was doing that weekend! None of your damn business! She was asking because she was thinking about rescheduling it (I wasn’t the only person who couldn’t go). She definitely means well, but there’s a line between friendly and intrusive – I want to keep work and regular life separate, and don’t always want to share. She probably thinks I’m not being a team player, but I just don’t want to spend money, and I definitely don’t want to do anything during my free time.

        But my bigger issue is that we have incompetent people doing poorly in their jobs, so having team lunches is really just a band-aid. I’m cursing this person under my breath for the rest of the workday because I have to help pick up the balls that re dropped. And my managers know about my and my coworkers’ issues with this person. Spending “fun” time with them is not solving the problem.

        1. voyager1*

          ARCLF,

          I think the lunches for when the interns left was a good jesture and you should suck it up for that one, since it is only one day out of the year.

          Birthdays, with 8 people, that could be a bit much.

          I get this comes up a lot, but I personally really would enjoy these kinds of activies if I worked somewhere this was done.

      2. ARLCF*

        And thank you for pointing out the dietary restrictions – I’m very sorry you have to deal with that.

    3. Colette*

      I’d separate the lunches and the desserts, since the managers pay for the desserts, and push back on the lunch part only. I do think you’re free to say you don’t want dessert for your birthday, but not in general.

      Did you talk to your manager? If not, can you mention to your manager that you find the frequent lunches too expensive?

  132. Double Secret anon for this*

    I have been a reader since I first took my current HR position 7 years ago. I rarely post, but I am a huge fan of Alison and the regular posters. Over the years I have also become the customer service manager and I need guidance.

    There has been another woman in our company in accounting, here 2 years longer than me. At times she is very condescending and overbearing, as if she is the smartest person in the room. She also over steps (in my mind) because rather than come to me she will go directly to my staff and “instruct them” on what they have done wrong. My customer service staff cannot stand her and we have reached the “eating crackers” stage. Her boss says she treats everyone that way and I keep saying that doesn’t make it right.

    Last week this situation came up and I tried to put my foot down, that if there were problems with my staff it all needed to come to me first, if they’re doing something wrong I need to know to train them. I wanted to come up with a plan to encourage everyone to get along. Her boss’s idea was that there is be NO direct contact between the customer service staff and the accounting department. So now any questions about a client account, billing or payments, have to go through me, and she will email me any issues she sees.

    This is an enormous amount of work for me, we have thousands of clients and hundreds of calls every day, but her boss said he told me I am catering to my staff’s feelings to much and I said we are catering to this one woman by continuing to allow her behavior.

    I need a reality check- am I unreasonable? I read here once that a manager’s job is to manage so that their staff can do their job. I feel I am fighting a losing battle, that my position is in winnable. And yes, I have my resume together to look for a new job, I just need to figure out to survive in this one for a little longer.

    1. Dawn*

      I mean…. I don’t know the exact dynamics in play here but I don’t think it’s that off base for her to go to people directly and say “yo, when you fill out form X please make sure that Y and Z are also done because of Reason, Reason, Reason.” Absolutely takes out the middleman with you playing telephone between her and your employees.

      Now, as for her attitude, yeah that needs to change, and there are better ways for her to approach stuff in a professional manner. But that’s on her manager and not you.

      1. Double Secret anon for this*

        Thank you, I am so in the trenches with this I cant even figure out what’s normal anymore.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You’re not being unreasonable, BUT – you’re also not being as assertive as you could be either. Loop the person above both of you in on your plan of action for this, to make sure that you have backup for it.

      You tell her manager flat out that you are not accepting this method of operating. You will not be the waystop for all questions about client accounts, billing, or payments. Just ain’t happening. If they come to you, you will not stop and go ask the question for them, you will return it to them to handle directly.

      The only thing that should come to you and frankly you INSIST come to you is if they believe that something was done incorrectly by one of your CS staff, and you will review and address that.

      You give that message with your HR manager hat on.

      1. Double Secret anon for this*

        Thanks, that’s a good point. I am not assertive enough and it’s a male dominated industry & business. I have worked with the other manager for 7 years but this is one of the few times we have disagreed.

  133. Intrepid*

    How long did it take you to get your first full-time, salaried-with-benefits job? I graduated almost 2 years ago now, and while I’ve been steadily employed in my field with a clear progression of titles, they’ve all been temporary positions (3-6 mo. each), and it’s really starting to wear on me. I had a friend advise me that I should go to my boss and ask him what’s wrong with me, that no one will hire me full time. I do get a lot of interviews, but… ugh. I’ve been job-searching every night for 2.5 years now, and I want to be done with it soon.

    1. Manders*

      I’m 5 years out of college and have never had a salaried position, but I started working at a full-time, permanent hourly job with benefits after about 6 months of bouncing around. I know some people who stepped right from college into salaried jobs that had recruited them. And I know people who had full-time permanent salaried jobs, lost them, and are now bouncing around doing contract work or temping.

      What’s normal in your field? There are some where never being hired full time would be a red flag, but others where that’s pretty much the norm for everyone.

      1. Intrepid*

        It seems like a mix– some people finished my Masters program and got new jobs, many went back to their previous jobs, and some took 3-9 months to find anything, but then went into something permanent. But most of them are also older than me, and I can’t take the time unpaid, and very few can show the quick advancement I can (although I was starting from behind).

    2. Dawn*

      6 years, but to be completely fair I spent five of those six years in a city with really, really crappy professional job prospects.

    3. Audiophile*

      I graduated in 08 and started job searching early (not knowing how bad the climate was and would continue to be.) It still took me about 3 months to find a full-time job. This was a salaried/exempt job with benefits, but it wasn’t even remotely related to my major and it paid less than 12k annually. It took me almost 2 years to leave that job and that was again another unrelated position.

      I won’t bog you down with the details but all-in-all, it took me six years to find something in my field.

      Keep plugging along, but it’s definitely possible. And I’d say it’s a very good sign that you’re getting these contract positions.

      Would you be comfortable divulging what field you’re in?

      1. Intrepid*

        I’m in international relations in DC. My teenage, career-picking logic went something like “everything’s going global, so there will be lots of jobs!” and I do love the work that I’ve done. But this city is swamped with highly-qualified candidates, and so it’s super competitive (while also still having the most job openings, so I’m leery of leaving).

        1. VolunteercoordinatorinNOVA*

          DC is tough as like you said there are so many qualified candidates here and jobs go quickly. Sometimes you have to expand what fits into your “field ” to find something. It doesn’t have to be completely unrelated but DC is a city of networkers so getting in the door somewhere can make a huge difference.

          1. Intrepid*

            Hypothetical: what if it is completely unrelated, but the networking is good? My current place is wrapping up all too soon, and it’s a little IR nub on an organization that mostly does other things. I have a good reputation in the company now, but moving within my company would actually mean moving fields.

        2. Audiophile*

          DC is tough. I visited a few years ago and really loved it. I loved the area my friend and I stayed in while we were there and came back to my NY suburb and started sending out apps. Never got any bites and quickly gave up. I’ve thought about giving it a shot again, I have a few DC contacts but they’re all in government/policy for companies.

        3. Audiophile*

          Have you thought about moving? My cousin did an MA in international relations with a college in NY, then worked for them for about 2 years and then moved to the west coast to work for a non-profit.

    4. overeducated*

      Depends on your field. I went into a field where it became very clear I’d be working part time without benefits for a long long time unless I got a master’s degree. So I went and got a PhD (because it was funded, had free health insurance, and paid me to do cool stuff with a flexible schedule). Um, and now I’m over 30 and have a full-time, salaried job, but it’s only for 2 years and without benefits, so…maybe don’t go into my field, is all I have to say.

    5. Purest Green*

      Don’t go to your boss with that question. I know it’s frustrating but try not to get down on yourself; it will not help you. You say you have a clear progression of titles, and that’s a great thing to play up in interviews and on your cover letter to help prove you’re ready for more responsibility.

      There’s very likely nothing wrong with you, and I think what you’re going through is typical of so many recent graduates, even ones from several years before you.

      1. Intrepid*

        Thank you, that’s helpful! My instinct said that I shouldn’t go to my boss with that question, but I wasn’t sure if it was good sense or hurt pride; my friend has had probably the best career so far of anyone I know even close to my age, so sometimes I don’t think she understands why it’s hard for other people.

    6. Chris*

      I had a full-time job right out of high school but I will toss in that I haven’t been able to get a full-time job in my field at all since graduating in 2012. I have been able to pick up part-time and volunteer work but the job market remains pretty dismal in my area for anything besides retail. After almost 4 years what I do is fill out applications and forget. It has helped my sanity immensely.

      I wouldn’t go to your boss and ask what’s wrong with you. There are many times I would love to be able to give people full-time but am held back by staffing budget, seniority, etc. I would frame it more as “What can I do to increase my chances of full-time? or “Are there any full-time opportunities coming up? I would like to be considered- what can I do to increase my odds?”

      Good luck!

      1. Intrepid*

        Thank you; as I mentioned above, my instinct about going to my boss was “oh no,” but I wasn’t sure if that was a bad case of pride or a case of good sense. I also think my boss believes in me more than I believe in myself, and sometimes… I think I need that, and I don’t want to compromise it with showing my hand of self-doubt.

    7. shep*

      After graduating from my MFA program, it took about a year and a half, and it was a pretty stressful year and a half. I was “employed” during graduate school, but really I was UNDERemployed, and while I wasn’t in retail, I was in a field that was only tertiarily related to what I studied. Savings had to be liquidated to pay graduate loans; credit card debt had to be accrued; and I was very unhappy.

      That said, I still don’t work in my field, but I love my office and the various facets of my job now. Many people in this office work here happily for several years, if not decades. While I don’t want to limit myself, I have other projects (traditional publishing, contract writing, etc.) that supplement my income, and I could see myself being happy here–culture and stability-wise–for years.

      I wish I had more solid advice to give; it’s a stressful thing to be looking for a place to land after school. Best of luck to you!

      1. shep*

        (Also it sounds like having contract positions in your field puts you in a much better position than I was ever in! I hope those positions will help you find something you really love.)

        1. Intrepid*

          Thank you! I’m also hoping they’re helping me address too much education/too little experience conundrum that can come up: in the last two years, I’ve worked my way up from intern to associate, which hopefully puts my education and experience more in sync.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      I had a real job lined up before I graduated. However, it was a generic sales role meant for recent grads. My tenure there was short and I landed my career-oriented role just a few months after leaving Job 1.

    9. MidManage*

      I think this depends so very much on the field.
      I think a lot of fields wouldn’t even have the short-term jobs you’re describing for entry-level employees, so perhaps this is standard for your field?

    10. Anon Too Fast*

      I’m about 8 years out of college and have been in job search mode ever since. I think the hardest part isn’t the money or the sense of failure or the fear about the future, but the inability to ever feel like I’ve done enough for the day.

      I feel like until I’m in a full-time regular job, I’ll never be able to just go to bed and feel like I’m done for the day or to just sit on the couch and watch TV and relax.

      1. Intrepid*

        That’s exactly it. Every minute spent with friends, or even cooking or cleaning, is a minute I could’ve spent job searching, which could’ve led to The Job, and security, but I “squandered” it feeding myself. I hate this feeling.

        1. Anon Too Fast*

          I think some of the lowest points for me were skipping a mostly free vacation with family because a) even the small portion of money spent eating out or just not being awkwardly thrifty is money I didn’t have and b) what if I were called back for a job interview? What if a job fair were announced? How much job searching can I do with the spotty wifi?

          And it’s not like I don’t take breaks. I take whole months where I’m in a limbo of barely applying for things, but even then it’s like a true break because I’m always thinking about how much I shouldn’t be wasting time.

    11. super anon*

      I got a full time, salaried with benefits job 2 weeks after I graduated. However, my job search took around 5 months after I had finished my classes in December. I had been working my entire adult life, and had spent my years in undergrad working for multiple universities and the provincial government on projects with increasing responsibility, which I think gave me a significant leg up in the job search process.

      1. super anon*

        I feel like my timeline is confusing and I should elaborate! I finished my classes for my degree at the end of December, but degree conferral and graduation isn’t until the end of May at my alma mater. I started actively job searching in February. I had an interview before I walked the stage in May, and was offered the position 2 weeks after that.

    12. SophieChotek*

      Six years after graduation to find a full-time salaried position with benefits…and I’m afraid it will take me another six to find a position more closely aligned with what I want to do and that I will actually like.

      Hang in there!

    13. AliceBD*

      I started job searching the October before I graduated college in May. I was initially rejected from a job and then they called me back later and offered it to me, as they had decided to hire 3 people instead of one person. They called sometime between finishing classes, exams, and graduating (about a 3 week period); they wanted me to start work the day after graduation but I pushed it back a week as I needed to move out of the dorms, go to my parents and sort thru my stuff, and find a place to live. It was the only job offer I received. It was not something I was interested in but I could do it well enough and it paid me enough to live on (with roommates) and had health insurance.

      That was a 9 month contract job for a grant-funded position that was always temporary, but 3 months before the end they hired me for a 6 month contract doing something else (that I was more interested in) and then 4 DAYS before that contract ended they fired my boss and hired me on full time. (He wasn’t doing any work, and was micromanaging me so he could pretend to be doing half of what I was doing.) But that, among some other things, had made me want to job search. So while my positions were at one company, while yours have been multiple companies, I also spent the first almost 2 years out of college job on temporary contracts and/or job searching and making concrete plans for being unemployed. (Again, got a new contract *4 DAYS* before the current one expired. I got the new contract on a Thursday and had been fully planning not to come into work the next Monday.)

      Personal connections, experience through my side gig, and someone at my current company getting fired got me a full-time job offer at my current company 4 months after I was made permanent at my previous company. It was a combination of things, mostly being SUPER lucky. Personal connections made them call me to discuss doing some part-time remote work for a project, but then seeing my resume and someone getting fired led them to offer me a job.

      BUT I am in marketing, which is a pretty flexible thing, and I have lots of customer service experience too. I’m job searching again, and for example a job I’m applying to tomorrow is working for the chapel of a private university, running programs, instead of doing blogs/social media full time for a company.

      Also, I’m moving more than I would have liked. My first company was in the metro area I went to college in, and I wasn’t planning on moving from that area. But this company is across the state, and the job was just too good of a fit for me not to move. And now I’m hoping to move again to the state I grew up in, and am applying for jobs there.

      I actually find it harder now to find jobs to apply to then I did when I was 2 years out of college (I’m only 5 years out, so not *that* much more experienced). Then I was just applying for everything I was qualified for that paid above a fairly low minimum. Now I have more specifics for what I want in terms of working environment, job duties, and salary requirements.

      I am also the only one of my college friends who has been consistently employed full time in “real” jobs somewhat in my field since graduation. The other ones have done combinations of contract work, short-term work, internships, and graduate studies. I’m jealous of them for getting Masters/MDs/JDs/PhDs and they’re jealous of me for not getting graduate student loans.

      I hope that helps! What you’re going through sucks but is not unusual. And getting interviews is great! Be kind to yourself.

    14. Christopher Tracy*

      I graduated college in September of 2009 and didn’t get my first full-time salaried position until August 2014 (though I was treated like a full-time salaried employee at my current company when I started in December 2013, even though the HR system listed my position as hourly). So almost five years. But given the fact that I graduated with a journalism degree into a shit economy, I’m surprised I ever managed to snag a permanent, full-time, salaried gig at all.

  134. Sally Sparrow*

    Last week I mentioned that I felt like my supervisor wasn’t really supervising me and not being sure of what was my responsibility and what wasn’t. I finally approached supervisor and we have a meeting next week to discuss and meetings there after for check-ins and apologized for not doing it sooner. Unfortunately the meeting isn’t until next week. And well, there was an incident with another coworker yesterday now making that meeting more important than before. Hopefully I’ll finally get straight answers on what I can and can’t do and who/how I should and should not help when approached my CWs.

  135. Seeking Strategies*

    What would you recommend?
    I’ve had a string of uncomfortable job situations, and wonder what you’d say when asked about “reasons for leaving” and talking with past employers for recommendations. These cover about 15 years of my job history.
    Working backwards:

    A. After failing to resolve financial issues with boss A, I resigned and reported boss A to the board (& then told the person who’d be dealing with reparations & said I had copies at home if needed). A made good, but a few months later the numbers were an order of magnitude worse and boss was escorted out of the bldg. That office was closed 6 months later.
    B. Before that, I was the 4th out of 8 on a small team to resign & leave a large organization in as many months. One example: the reporting structure was revised every 6 weeks, but boss B only told the person now in charge and chastised the rest of us for not being up to date. HR begged me to be frank in my exit interview, saying that HR couldn’t do anything unless one of us would talk, so I did (note that that organization sends reference checkers to The Work Number).
    C. I landed on that B team as part of a reorg and layoffs; my boss C of many years was laid off – and angry that they kept me instead. Angry ex-boss C slammed me to boss B, and confirmed that C would not be a good reference. (Boss C’s boss, who had left the organization, has been happy to be a good reference for me.)

    As you might imagine, not having supervisor references isn’t easy in a job hunt. Saying something innocuous about why I left makes not using that supervisor iffier. Casting aspersions on the jobs in a row doesn’t look good for me. I have colleague and supervisee references from two of those jobs with whom I’m still in regular touch.

    I’ve done some volunteering, but references from that won’t be as useful as “work” references.

    With that limited information, what strategies might you use for talking about my job history and handling reference issues?

    What say you?

    1. AF*

      I think the volunteer reference is okay. Can you get a reference from a board member or someone else from job A?

      As for what to say, for A, I would say that the organization was struggling financially, and you had some ethical concerns about management.
      For B, mention that the management structure was in a lot of transition, and state reasons why that made it difficult for you as an employee to do the work.
      For C – did you resign from this job? How long had you been there? I think the supervisor being laid off is reason enough not to include this person as a reference, and he’s not the reason why you left, so you’re probably okay never to speak of him again. It’s great that the higher boss has been a good reference – keep him! People change jobs all the time, but he can still speak about you as an employee, even though neither of you work at that organization anymore.

      I’ve had some really terrible situations, and you’re right – it’s very tricky to talk about them in an interview without sounding like you have terrible luck, or that there’s something wrong with YOU, and you’re just blaming all your previous employers. Best of luck to you!

    2. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      Two of your bosses are no longer with the company, if I’m reading your scenarios correctly. You don’t have to say why that is, just state that fact.

  136. Drew*

    Today my company launched a project that I worked hard on last fall and winter. Earlier this week, I got 98% approval to start working on a HUGE project that I’ve been pushing to get going for almost seven years, so that’s going to be my main focus for at least the next year. And an outside company we do work for is pleased enough with what I’ve done for them that they specifically asked if I would be able to contribute to an important milestone update, saying they thought it would be a really good value-add to their project.

    It’s been a good week. :D

    1. Sybil Fawlty*

      Thank you! I am sick in bed today, which is also why I’ve commented more today than in the entire 2 years I’ve been reading this site. I needed a laugh!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      So you can be exposed to more potential clients who won’t want to pay you either! What an awesome opportunity.

  138. $1,000,000 per year plus teapots*

    I’ve had three first-round job interviews over the past week, two of which included questions about my salary expectations.

    I don’t ever recall being asked for salary requirements/expectations in first-round interviews before – not even last year. (I interviewed for – and got – a short-term opportunity last fall.)

    Is this a trend?

    1. Dawn*

      I think it’s an excellent way for employers to make sure they’re on the same page with a candidate before deciding to move them further in the interview process- that way neither side ends up surprised when a job offer is rejected over salary after they’ve all gone through the song and dance of interviewing.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      From what I’ve read about here it does seem like something of a trend. I’m all for the employer being transparent about the range their willing to offer, but I strongly dislike being asked early on about salary expectations – it feels like whoever states an expectation first has the negotiating advantage and employers have enough power in this equation as it is.

    5. Bad Candidate*

      I’ve been asked this many, many times over the course of years. That could also be because I’m usually in jobs that could be minimum wage or could be $70K and there’s no telling based on the job posting.

  139. AnonKitty*

    So I’ve been at a job I really like for a while. I’ve started picking up duties that are outside the scope of my job description due to some…internal issues (read : firings) I’ve been working on project management levels of work for almost 5-6 months now and they have yet to find a replacement for this type of work. I currently love this work and would like to promote within the company, but even though I’ve expressed interest in it and have actually done the work and sent in my resume/CV when it opened up officially, nothing is really moving forward yet. If they do find a new person, would it be wrong to stop helping with those duties since I’m not getting paid extra? I’m worried about being pressured to help a new hire that would have to get “taught the ropes” when I really want to be performing the tasks I was hired on to do at full capacity.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yeah, it would come across as rather vindictive over not having gotten the job. Look at it this way: If you got the new job, would you help train and assist the person who was hired to do your current job while they got up to speed? Or would you insist on stopping right away to focus on performing the tasks of your new job at full capacity?

      If this is an area you want to move into, you are probably better off helping to onboard them for a short period of time (think probably not more than a month), and then be available to occasionally help them on an as-needed basis. Doing that gives you ground for building your skills/experience record and potentially asking for a raise as you are now regularly also doing X as support for [New Person].

      1. AnonKitty*

        It’s not meaning to be vindictive or anything. I supposed I should explain further why I’m so conflicted. I was told within the first few weeks of producing positive results covering this work, that next year there would be a position created solely for me and would come with a wage increase and adequate title that covered these types of duties in a smaller capacity. Then I was asked weather I was interested in PM work and was told to apply for it when it came up. So, while they obviously need to pick the best candidate, I can’t help but keep being fed promise of a raise/position change with a refusal to put anything in writing about these kinds of talks.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          I know some companies are very honest and supportive when it comes to internal promotion/employee growth, but I know some most definitely are not, and you might be in one of those. I would continue to do the work if it’s the work you want to be doing, but think long and hard about whether you’re ever going to get anywhere with your current employer, or if you’re building up your resume for a move. Good luck!

  140. super anon*

    Project Managers – which software should I learn as an aspiring PM? I assume Microsoft Project, but is there other software I should be aware of that will be useful for me to know once I get my PMP and start moving in to primarily PM focused roles?

    1. AF*

      Smartsheet charges a fee (it’s cloud-based with an app) but it’s good and easy to use. You can get a free demo their website (I think the demo is good for 30 days).

  141. Renault*

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone!

    I wrote in about my work situation previously after being trapped in a position I didn’t want and blocked from internal promotion as I was too “valuable”. The feedback was mainly of the “your boss sucks”/”your boss is a unreasonable ass” variety. Since I wrote in two new managers were hired in- when I mentioned my continued interest in being moved and asked if one was a possible replacement for my position I was told that both of these new hires were for positions senior to mine. If you guessed, yes, I was told again that I was “too valuable” to move. (Although my boss was kind enough to make sure that one of these new managers was mine to train, as I had all the skills required) I started to get more aggressive in my job searching that same day.

    I am now happy to say that I am waiting on a final offer to be extended after Labor day for a different company.
    So thank you everyone that responded to me before, and good luck to those still seeking!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Congratulations! May your former boss eat crow when they have to explain why you are now valuable… somewhere else.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      YAY! So happy for you! Bosses who think they own you are the worst. You’ll be so much better off in your new role.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      When they express dismay that you’re leaving, I hope you say “I didn’t plan to, but you convinced me I was too valuable to stay here.”

      1. Graciosa*

        I assume that was a bit sarcastic, but I do genuinely think employers and managers who act like this should be told pretty clearly that they lose by it in the long run (but very professionally, of course, and in ways that won’t get the soon-to-be-former employee in trouble).

        I would go with, “I really loved working here, and hoped I could have a long term career at Employer without having to change companies. But of course I understand that it wasn’t something Employer was able to accommodate, and when the opportunity arose externally, it was just too good not to accept. My new role is [presenting the challenge I always hoped for / a terrific next step / giving me a great opportunity to finally X / whatever was requested and denied by Employer] and I’m really excited about it – although I’ll always look back on my time here at Employer with great fondness, wherever else my career takes me in the future.”

        I think Renault should – very politely – gut the Bad Boss with a happy smile.

        The nicer Renault is, the more it drives home how badly Bad Boss screwed up.

    4. SophieChotek*

      Hope that final offer comes through and you can leave this place where you are “too valuable” to be given an internal promotion (!)

  142. Menacia*

    Ugh, manager did it again, instead of putting the brakes on a request and asking the right questions, she gave in to the *non-existent* pressure and now it’s come back to bite us (not her). I don’t understand why “No” is not part of her vocabulary…it’s the first word on the tip of my tongue when a stupid request comes in….guess that’s why I’m not a manager! ;)

  143. jack of all trades*

    For those who do not use Firefox browser. From their start page.

    Free thought: Never let a dress code get in the way of fun socks.

  144. Lemon Zinger*

    As many of you know, my work partner quit at the beginning of our busy season. We were a small team of three, but now it’s just me and my boss, who works at another location.

    Since she has small children, she doesn’t work night events unless absolutely necessary. I am literally the only person who can cover our many after-hours events; our specialty is very specific. This week I’ve worked nearly 50 hours, and will do so for the foreseeable future. We don’t anticipate filling the empty role until October at least, and then we’ll have to do significant training before the new hire can start attending events solo.

    I AM EXHAUSTED. The lack of work/life balance is really getting to me. My coworkers on a different team are permitted to flex their hours and I’m thinking of asking my boss for permission to do the same. I have Tuesday evenings off for graduate school, but she pushed back so hard on even that. I’m worried that she’ll say no or at least be put off that I asked.

    Advice? Words of consolation? I’m not sure I can make it to December 1 (when the overtime laws will kick in).

    1. zora.dee*

      Can you be really clear with your boss that this is a temporary situation? “I’m really exhausted with the current schedule of covering so many events. This isn’t sustainable until October at this rate. Can we talk about flexing my hours somewhat until we figure out filling the role and getting the schedule back to normal?”

      I mean, if she’s put off that you asked, so what? What is so bad about that? I know, I get caught up in the “but they might be annoyed” spiral all the time, but I have started to learn how to talk myself out of it by thinking through what I’m so worried about:

      “Ok, if she’s put off that I asked, then what? Will she yell? will she fire me? what would the consequences be and would they be that bad? What if she understands and says yes? Or maybe she’ll be annoyed for a few days and then get over it?” Try to get a grasp on what you are worried about so you can let go of it. You’re going to do no one any good if you end up dropping from exhaustion!

      I know all of that is easier said than done, believe me ;o) but i hope it helps to hear it. Good luck!

  145. Ada Lovelace*

    TLDR: There is no funding in my department for my position and my options will be going back to the old department under a different director or termination. If I’m terminated as a part-time hourly employee, can I ask for severance?

    I mentioned a few months ago about my new job at a nonprofit and not receiving any work from my boss. I followed the advice and talked to grandboss, received assurances they would have more work for me to do after new CEO came on board. In May, grandboss moved to head a new department and brought a coworker and myself over in June, making her my direct boss. Occasionally, I get a sprinkling of work here and there but since there has been no change, I’ve been trying to keep myself busy by researching other programs and donors, and completing homework if possible. The current plan is to make it to the one year mark in November and then just blanket USAjobs and Idealist since I will be completing my last semester for my BA in December.

    Today after a week and half of “I need to talk to you” from boss, plus an additional 90 minute delay, I was finally able to have a meeting with my boss. Turns out when I changed departments, my salary never followed. It was still coming out of the old department. Chief of Staff was reviewing budgets and informed her that could no longer be the case. Boss knew this (she admitted she just pushed it off for as long as she could) and she has no money in her budget to keep me. My options are to return to old department under a different director if she accepts me or I will be terminated. The director at the old department is out sick for the day, so I won’t have an answer until next week.

    I’m not angry; mostly annoyed at the situation and the delay in particular. The conversation was less than five minutes long. It didn’t warrant trying to schedule a full meeting as well as the fact that boss just ignored the issue for so long. Coworker mentioned to me that fits her MO. Boss will try to get her way and just tries to steamroll other parties into making it happen (coincidentally that is how she moved departments). I never worked with the other director at old department and I haven’t heard any good things about working with her. I’m hoping to ask a different coworker who works in that department how it functions as well his opinion of the director. If I get transferred, I will continue with the original plan. Having a paycheck is a necessity even if I’m not happy at this job for a few months. I need to make a plan in case the transfer is not accepted. Would it be reasonable to ask for severance in this situation? I am a part-time, hourly employee. If I’m terminated, boss said she will give me a glowing reference so at least that will be taken care of.

    1. Christopher Tracy*

      You can ask, especially since this was your boss’s screwup to begin with (she should have gotten on top of the salary change immediately), but if she doesn’t have the budget to cover your salary, she may not even have it to give you a decent severance check. This is a mess, and I hope you find a new job soon.

  146. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

    On today’s episode of stuff to not say at work:

    I was having an argument with my boss. Not an unprofessional or disrespectful one, but we were disagreeing on something.
    And then he suddenly tells me: “God, you remind me of my wife!”
    I tell him calmly and directly: “That’s not something you should ever say to me.”

    I was pretty proud of myself actually. Because in my 20s, I would have just been annoyed, but I like that I’m at a point now where I can call someone out directly. Nobody ever says that in the context of “wow, you remind me of my wife, she’s also brilliant.” It’s almost always in a nasty way.

    Sigh. Does this happen to other people?

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      1. I love the new name!
      2. The thing I regret the most in my work life is taking so long to be assertive for myself.

      Now I’m in the position of trying to teach a person that she doesn’t need to be so non-confrontational. Trying to convince her to tell the fact and not to worry about others feelings is hard. Especially when she’s been a doormat for quite a while.

  147. NewManager*

    Has anyone ever had to fire a pregnant employee? I’m a new manager and inherited an under-performer with a poor work ethic. My boss and VP were both in favour of letting her go immediately, until my VP made a last minute call that we should put her on a PIP. In the last week of the PIP she complained to HR that she didn’t know she could lose her job (even though that’s specifically written) and that we didn’t set her up for success and disclosed that she is now pregnant, so HR recommended we extend an additional couple of weeks. While I’m sympathetic to her personal situation (I don’t want to fire a pregnant woman!), I feel we’re only delaying the inevitable and would rather do this sooner rather than later. Her poor performance is well documented and while she might try to sue, we don’t think she would have a case. Any advice on handling this extra delicate situation?

    1. AF*

      Alison wrote this a few years ago, but it still applies (#5): http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2011/09/19/reasons-why-your-awful-coworker-still-has-a-job. You can fire her because she’s a low performer. How long was she on the PIP? Do you feel that you gave her reasonable amounts of training? She can try to sue, but if you have documentation that she is a low performer, it shouldn’t hold up. This may sound horrible, but it’s not going to get any easier after she has the baby, and you are right about only delaying the inevitable. I’m sorry you’re in this situation. Good luck!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I understand morally not wanting to fire someone expecting a child, but would you really want to fire someone with a new baby at home either? From the legal standpoint, I would want to run this past an attorney before going ahead (especially if you think she might be litigious), but if the performance issues are well documented as you said, I’m with you that ending it now is better than delaying the inevitable.

    3. TheLazyB*

      I have no idea, my only thought is could you offer her severance in lieu of notice? You’d need a written agreement of some kind I guess

      1. NewManager*

        Yes, if/when it comes to that we will fire without cause and give a severance package. Given the situation I’ve made it clear to HR I want to offer the best we can, including career coaching services to help her get back on her feet and into a new, better-fitting job as soon as possible.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Whoa, no, do NOT fire without cause. You have cause, and you need to fire for cause and tell her what those reasons are. Otherwise it really could look like pregnancy discrimination, which it’s not. You can fire for cause and still give severance.

          1. Elysian*

            Well, that may depend on the nomenclature and/or if the employee is on a contract or has an employment agreement, company-wide (ERISA-qualifying) severance plan, etc. I’ve seen lots of contracts/policies/etc with really strict definitions of “cause” that plain old poor performance wouldn’t meet, so people default to fire “without cause”, especially if they want the person to be eligible for a contractual severance or something. In my experience that doesn’t mean that they won’t tell them why they’re being fired, it just means that for the purposes of the contract/severance plan, it doesn’t meet the definition of “cause.” Obviously depends on the employee, company, etc. (Don’t mean to contradict, wise AAM guru!) I would echo the advice not to let her go without telling her why!

          2. NewManager*

            Oh we’ll definitely tell her what the reasons are, and she’s aware of what the issues are as we’ve been discussing them daily/weekly through the PIP. I’m in Canada if that makes a difference, so firing without cause means she would be entitled to severance in lieu of notice and EI benefits, and firing with cause means she could challenge the decision with a lawsuit which is why my company typically chooses to classify all terminations as without cause.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      Cynical Glasses on here.

      She’s in danger of losing her job and this is when she discloses she’s pregnant? Yeah, be extra careful. Make sure you document everything. Start meeting with her weekly or even every other day to check in and discus performance issues. Make sure that she has crystal clear goals to hit. Your documentation is going to have to be law suit proof. And you never know, she might just shape up.

      1. NewManager*

        Yeah, that’s crossed everyone’s mind here too, but I do believe it’s true and just unfortunate timing. She told us she only found out a couple of weeks ago, so the PIP and performance documentation began prior to that. I can definitely see she’s trying, but she’s just not cut out for the job and the same mistakes keep occurring.

  148. Dzhymm*

    Related to a recent comment: does anybody ever emerge from a PIP back into the good graces of their employer? Or is it just the first step towards a pre-determined termination? After having seen this dance enough times in my career, I decided that if I were ever to be put on a PIP I’d just say “Let’s cut to the chase” and start cleaning out my desk.

    1. Bad Candidate*

      I’ve never been on a PIP myself, but I’ve never seen anyone emerge from is successfully. But I’m not privvy to knowing who all is on one either.

    2. Jennifer*

      One of my friends did for awhile, but they ended up firing her later anyway.

      So…yes, a PIP is a prelude to a firing, basically just gives you time to job hunt before they fire you.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s not universally true though. It varies by organization and by manager. There are plenty of managers who use them as a genuine way to try to get people to improve and who are happy to keep people on if they do. There are other managers who have given up by the time they get to the PIP stage with someone.

        The comments on this post have a bunch of accounts from people who successfully passed PIPs:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2013/05/what-to-do-when-youre-put-on-a-performance-improvement-plan.html

    3. Graciosa*

      I don’t want this to be overly harsh, so please brace yourself, and understand that I am only saying this to give you some insight into how others could perceive your proposed course of action. It is meant to be helpful by giving you information, and a chance to rethink your approach if you wish to.

      If someone just said “Let’s cut to the chase” and started cleaning out a desk in response to a PIP, I would be thinking “Wow, I guess this proves I was right to be concerned,” followed immediately by, “Thank god this problem is leaving as soon as I discovered it!”

      Work involves dealing with difficult situations, and someone who did this is proving they lack that capacity. As a manager, I would take this reaction to a PIP as a sign of an immature employee who, faced with criticism, walks away rather than even attempting to deal with the situation.

      I do absolutely believe it is possible to negotiate a resignation (with a firm date at least two weeks out) in lieu of a PIP. This is a very different conversation, however, and does not look like a knee-jerk reaction followed by an immediate decision to pack up and leave when faced with critical feedback.

      Walking out immediately after hearing you’re going on a PIP is still walking out without notice. There is no moral high ground you can take after doing that, and it is not a victory against the employer.

      Please remember that your reputation matters (not just with the boss – you’d be amazed at how often former co-workers turn up at other potential employers). I had to fire someone I would be very happy to recommend for other positions – mine wasn’t a fit, but the individual handled the situation with extraordinary professionalism, and I won’t ever forget that.

      For your own sake, I would recommend you actually consider the specifics of the situation if you are ever on a PIP and, if you still decide to leave, give at least standard notice.

      1. Dzhymm*

        Well that’s kind of why I asked the question. My so-called “immature” attitude is due to having seen this play out time and again, where putting someone on a PIP was little more than an exercise in assembling documentation for a termination that was already decided upon. Even if the PIP is legitimate, though, the employee is now viewed as “damaged goods” and put under the microscope — normal variations in performance that would be tolerated in other staff suddenly become A Problem when done by Mr. PIP.

        Now that you mention it, another possible response to a PIP would be to ask “Is this a real improvement plan, or have you already decided to fire me and we’re just going through the motions?” At which point I’d be canned anyway for having an “attitude problem”…

        1. Graciosa*

          Even if your specific employer or manager only uses a PIP for termination documentation, my advice still stands.

          But no, that is not the universal approach, and people do emerge from PIPs successfully, and without permanent effect (at least at my company).

          I probably sound less sympathetic than I actually am, as I was once a victim of a boss who hated me. There is nothing you can do in that situation except get out – which is horribly unfair, but is still the reality. I was able to continue at my then-current employer because another manager took me – largely based on reputation, which really does matter more than you think.

          Forcing yourself to rise above it when someone in the office – your *boss*! – is mistreating you is incredibly hard. I still think of that period as one of the toughest work-related things I have ever gone through.

          But even if your manager is evil, and puts you on a PIP just because HR won’t allow firing without going through the motions, you don’t gain anything by acknowledging that.

          When I advise you to behave professionally, and give proper notice if you decide to leave, this is code for *protect yourself.* Unfortunately, there are a lot of possible reactions that may feel satisfying at the time but which will really hurt you – not the employer, *you* – in the long run.

          If you’re ever in a bad situation, I hope you can avoid them.

          1. Bibliovore*

            Manager here. Yes, by the time it gets to PIP the situation is dire but…
            I had the experience where the PIP was a wake-up call. The employee really, really, really didn’t get that she had to follow procedures and if she continued making unfortunate choices, she would lose her job.
            She did what was asked. Improved performance. Worked for me for another two years, went on to another job with a great reference from me.

            In a different situation, had an seriously underperforming employee who behaved like the PIP was just an annoying HR formality with no consequences. As her manager, I truly believed that she would change her behavior and meet expectations. I sought professional help to make sure my expectations were reasonable. I was flabbergasted that her job was in jeopardy and it seemed she had no comprehension of how serious the situation was.

            1. Christopher Tracy*

              One of my former coworkers was put on a PIP by our former awful manager – this woman was hellbent on getting him out of our company, it was borderline pathological the amount of time she spent on this. Anyway, over a year later, he was taken off the PIP and given the highest performance review rating of anyone on our team by this same manager (at that point she was being demoted and transferred to another team, so her reviews were merely ceremonial). He’s still there six months later and is apparently being groomed by the new manager of his team for a possible promotion to supervisor.

              Another guy I know at my company came into his current division on a PIP and was close to being fired as well by his old manager. Ten years later, he’s a director of the division that took him in while on his PIP. So yes, sometimes these things can be overcome.

  149. ThatLibraryChick*

    Our workplace has an employee assistance program that is completely confidential. They offer many services including short term counseling for any sort of issue which I would like to take advantage of because it is a benefit available to us. Their office hours start before our actual work day starts so technically I could try to see if I could get an appointment before I need to physically be at work. However they may also only have opening during my workday. Since this would be for a personal and not a work related issue, I am hesitant to mention this to my supervisor if I don’t have to but if ends up only available during work hours, I will have to tell them which makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I think it’s because if I was seeing a counselor/therapist, I could just say I have a medical appointment I need to take leave for but since this is technically a work benefit and I don’t need to use leave, I’m not sure what’s the best way to go with this. Any suggestions?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I don’t have any direct experience with EAPs, but I’ve got to think that seeing a counselor is seeing a counselor whether you went out and found them yourself or used a work benefit to find one. Plus, I think the work/personal divide kind of falls apart when it comes to medical issues. If you can’t focus on work because of an untreated issue, that’s bad for the employer and for you. It’s in their interest that you be healthy, and if that means taking an hour off here and there, a reasonable employer shouldn’t have an issue with it.

    2. Colette*

      I think it’s fine to say you have an appointment. Does your employer have a policy that using your EAP doesn’t require leave? I wouldn’t assume that’s the case.

      I would assume that counsellors through an EAP would have hours outside of business hours.

      1. motherofdragons*

        At my last employer (State government agency), EAP services were free, but employees were required to post (paid) sick leave or other time for those appointments. If this is the case for you, ThatLibraryChick, you should be able to say that it’s for a medical appointment without further inquiry.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I briefly used my employer’s EAP to get counseling. I simply told my boss “I have a medical appointment that will be weekly until further notice. Unfortunately it has to be during the day, so on those days, I will come in early and take a short lunch. Let me know if you have questions.”

      Your boss does not (and should not) need to know that you need counseling. Do not tell her what the appointment is for. Be vague. When my boss pressed, I told her “It’s embarrassing and I’d rather not discuss it.”

      I hope your EAP counseling is better than mine was… I totally did not connect with the counselor at all. :/

  150. Friyay*

    I’m having an annoying Outlook issue – it started happening we recently upgraded to 2016. My emails look fine when I send them out, but when people reply (every time, without fail) Outlook adds extra lines to my message. Is there a formatting setting I’m missing or something? I’ve looked everywhere I can think of.

      1. Friyay*

        I couldn’t see any, but I deleted my sig & created a new one. I sent a test email to my gmail account, and everything looks fine there – I only see the extra spacing in my Outlook so it must be something goofy Microsoft is doing.

  151. Anxa*

    So, I’m strongly considering quitting my job without having anything lined up.

    As some of you probably remember, my SO accepting a postdoc about 5 hours away. His grad school stipend was our principal source of income and my job does not pay well (the wage is okay, the weekly hours aren’t terrible, but all of the unpaid days off add up). I can not afford to work for my current wage any longer, but I don’t know if I’ll find another job in the next 6-10 weeks.

    So there’s a good chance I’ll just have to up and quit because I cannot afford the rent to do my job.

    I know this isn’t recommended and you shouldn’t quit with a job lined up, but aside from the obvious risk of no income what exactly about this looks bad to employers?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      It won’t look bad to employers. When they ask why you left the job, simply say “I moved to be closer to family.”

    2. Nanc*

      You may qualify for unemployment while you job hunt in the new locale. Check with the locale’s unemployment office–pretty normal for one spouse/SO to follow along when there’s a new job in a new place.

      1. Anxa*

        That’s interesting.

        On the one hand it seems strange since it’s my choice to quit. On the other, I’m only quitting because the pay is so low and my living expenses had to be subsidized in order to do that job.

      2. Anxa*

        We’re not married, either, in a very conservative state regarding unmarried couples.

        But that’s very useful to consider in the future, as if we do get married I’ll likely become a trailing spouse.

  152. millspill40*

    Hi all,

    In a situation with a new boss who has been my supervisor for a month. He has been very open about wanting to hire new people (his buddies), with some of their duties overlapping with mine. He has also asked a few times what my salary is. Should I be worried, or am I looking into this too much? He is definitely a hard person to get a read on. Thanks!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Why doesn’t he know your salary? He’s your boss…

      Unless his buddies have experience in your field, you are right to be concerned.

    2. Joanna*

      That raises big red flags for me. There’s a risk that his friendship with them is colouring his assessment of their competence. Even if they are actually very skilled, there’s a high chance him employing friends will make the office social dynamics weird.

  153. M*

    Considering moving to San Antonio. Fully transferable jobs with telecommute options possible for both of us, looking for warm weather and hopefully acceptance of newcomers; coming from a decade in a Midwest area where baristas still question whether they know me from the local high school or if I work for a major area employer.

    Any locals willing to weigh in on pros and cons? All advice welcomed.

    2. Clever Name*

      I lived in Texas for 7 years. The whole time, I was considered a Yankee outsider. I’m also from the Midwest. In my opinion, Texas is very provincial and distrustful of outsiders. If you’re from the south, you might get a pass. I was living in Fort Worth, which isn’t exactly a small town.

    3. Aisling*

      I lived in South Texas (2 hours south of San Antonio) for 2 years. I really like Texas; it’s a huge state with a different feel depending where you are. In South Texas, I was a minority because I’m not Hispanic, and there was some definite distrust because of that. I remember one of my friend’s housekeepers refused to answer the door if I came by, because she didn’t want to talk to a white person. The Hispanic culture is very strong from San Antonio on south, and I loved learning more about the culture (and the food is fantastic!), but I would only consider a move to San Antonio if you are well versed in Hispanic culture or want to learn more. And I really love San Antonio; it’s a beautiful city.

    1. AliceBD*

      Thanks! That will be helpful.

      Of course, that doesn’t get around the application system I recently filled out, which required an actual number (not 0) for my salary in my current and every former role in order to proceed. >:(

      1. MacGirl*

        I know! I hate filling that in. I’ve started noting applications that require that in case I am contacted for an interview so I can prepare for negotiations. I mean, if I have x years experience doing y, z, etc. skills and a hiring manager wants to hire me, then it is obvious that I am well qualified for the role. So there is room for negotiation.

  155. Master Bean Counter*

    Friday funny:

    One of my coworkers just came to me. She wrote down a number somebody had given her for a customer service department. When she called the number she got greeted by, “Hey gorgeous, I’ve been waiting for your call…”
    She’s double checking the number now.

  156. AnonBonBon*

    What do you do to really, fully recover from working with a deeply toxic leader?

    I’ve been working for over a year with an executive who is unfathomably awful, but also incredibly manipulative and skilled at gaslighting people around her so that people who notice her bizarre behavior feel like *they* are the crazy ones. The long term effect of this, which I’ve seen in myself and those around me, is that people who work with her end up adopting some of her worst behaviors. For instance she is deeply paranoid (she took the office being decorated for Halloween as a death threat) and although I haven’t gone to that extreme of thinking everyone is out to get me, I notice I’m paranoid in turn *about* her and can’t focus when she’s around because I’m worried about how she’s going to explode next. This has happened to my team, too–one of my staff confessed to me that she perpetually fears our CEO is about to fire her, even though she just received a promotion and a raise.

    I’m finally getting close to being ready to move on–it’s been very tough to let go, but things are coming to an end here one way or another. One opportunity I’m pursuing involves founding a business of my own. Especially if I’m stepping up that much in responsibility, I definitely don’t want to be carrying around the scars from this experience and visiting them on others in the future. I think the biggest thing holding me back is that I’m so perplexed and confused by how this could happen, and I feel like I need others around me to understand that what I’m experiencing is real, even though it sounds like something out of a scary movie.

    Anyone who’s been through a situation where their work environment is so toxic that people who haven’t seen it with their own eyes have a hard time believing it? How did you get past the desire to talk about it and obsess over it? How did you leave it in the past, move on, and root out any of the traits of the toxicity that you’d taken into yourself? How long did it take before it stopped occupying so much space in your mind?

    (Personal experiences please – I’m a trained victim services responder & understand how trauma works, so I started seeing a professional as soon as I realized I was experiencing trauma in my work environment. But I’d like to hear what others did in their specific situations, and how long it took.)

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Aside from therapy and self-care, it just takes time. A new workplace that you enjoy helps a lot too, though those scars will hang around for a while. I still have an irrational fear that one day I’ll be fired out of the blue, even though I KNOW that won’t happen.

    2. Soupspoon McGee*

      I left a toxic place a little of two years ago, and within a few weeks, my partner commented that I was so much happier, healthier, and fun to be around. That was a big help.

      I worked at a place with a really unhealthy culture, poor communication, unethical practices, not a lot of accountability, and a real shoot-the-messenger mentality. I had five different bosses in six years; the last two knew nothing about my work, and the last one had me on a PIP for a year for doing things that were fundamentally part of my job. After I left, it took a year to stop feeling indignant. When the parking sticker fell off my car last week, I told myself to let it go for good (there may have been singing involved).

      I talked it out a lot with family and friends, and the patient ones reassured me that I was not, in fact, an idiot. I realized I was reacting to criticism in a new workplace in an unhealthy, fearful way and sort of retrained myself that making a mistake, asking a question, or seeing something differently did not mean I was about to be fired.

      This part is weird to me: I haven’t kept in touch with most of the people at that place, even the ones I really liked. A few people text or Facebook me, but the promised/expected lunches and drinks never materialized. I’m okay with that.

    3. NicoleK*

      It took me about 6-7 months to stop “obsessing” over what happened at Old Toxic Job. I liked my Old Boss as a person, but as a manager, she was terrible. Time, focusing on new job, and distancing myself from former colleagues helped me to move on.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I don’t know that you ever fully recover from a deeply toxic leader. It sounds like you’re doing the right things by getting some counseling and doing self care.

      A couple of thoughts. Toxic leaders don’t usually happen in a leadership vacuum. It is very likely that the entire workplace culture is toxic. My previous dysfunctional workplace had a reputation for being insular and was jokingly referred to as being a cult.

      After you leave, in your new situation you probably will have to consciously remind yourself that this isn’t the exact same situation and these aren’t the same people that you had bad experiences with.

  157. NW Mossy*

    I’m excited on Mr. Mossy’s behalf, as this week the Least Valuable Player at his company gave notice and his last day is today. Mr. Mossy was nominally LVP’s boss but didn’t have any authority to impose consequences for his non-performance (such as practically non-existent work product, inconsistent attendance, and the like) and was fighting a losing battle with one of the owner-partners about the need to let LVP go. While LVP is a nice enough guy, he was in way over his head and Mr. Mossy was just incredibly frustrated trying to manage him. We wish him well, but are perhaps inappropriately celebratory!

  158. SirTechSpec*

    Right now my job includes a lot of different duties – customer-facing tech support, back-end desktop management and software administration, project management, documentation, training, communication, answering the doorbell for the loading dock…

    Having to do so many different types of work, each with a different pace and type of focus required, has me feeling pulled in a lot of different directions. The department is doing some workforce planning that will likely result in at least some reorganization, and we’ve all been asked for our input. So, I might have at least a bit of influence over where I end up and what I end up doing. (I’m one of half a dozen people in the same position, so it would be relatively easy to divvy up the tasks differently.)

    My problem is… how do I know what to focus on? I generally like each of these tasks by themselves, but it’s super frustrating trying to write a script or a project status report while my inbox is filling up with people who want help getting into their e-mail, and vice versa, which obscures the question of what I’d be most excited about under ideal conditions. Does anyone have any good exercises for sorting out which parts of your job are the most satisfying?

    1. Graciosa*

      What do you love to see in your inbox? What do you do immediately without prompting?

      What do you hate to see in your inbox? What do you consistently do at the last minute (or only when prompted) even though you had it for a while?

      If you have family or friends you talk to about work, ask them what you enthuse about (and what you complain about).

      What do you do as a reward to yourself, and in exchange for what? (i.e., if I finish these stupid reports, I can work on the powerpoint presentation for the other project).

      What types of work are suited to your preferred working style at this employer? [I phrased this carefully. For example, there are people who want to be left alone to work on something heads-down and with limited interruption (preferred style), and there are places where the person who does X works like that – but this can be fairly specific to your job and employer.]

      If you were allowed to assign the work to everyone on the team, what would you keep for yourself?

    2. Champagne_Dreams*

      If you truly love it all, maybe just be strategic about which job functions offer you more career runway to move out and/or up with steadily increasing pay over the next decade.

  159. Rebecca*

    Tales from the PHB this week.

    PHB called me and asked me when the Teapot Sales Reports update. I told her I didn’t know, and she didn’t let me finish my sentence (as per usual). “WELL WHY DON’T YOU KNOW?” My answer was, I don’t use the Teapot Sales Report, I use the Teapot Production Report and Shipping Report, so I would not be aware of when report I don’t use updates in the system. I told her I thought it might be an overnight update. She insisted it was not an overnight update, and then hung up on me.

    I was so sorely tempted to ask her “what kind of a dumbassed question is that?” like she did when I asked a question last week, but held my tongue.

    I am still hopeful I can find another job. A friend ran into someone who works at the company who called me for a phone interview, and my friend asked this person if they knew anything about their hiring processes. Person said not to be discouraged; they always tell people they’ll get back to them next week, but it could be weeks or even a month or more before they contact people. She said they are very slow.

    So, there’s hope. I just have to make sure my social filter stays in place. I’ve been slowly taking personal things home, a few things at at time, and my desk drawers are almost cleaned out now. I can get everything that’s left into one small box, and that’s already in one of my bottom drawers. If I have to make a quick getaway, I’m ready.

    1. jack of all trades*

      I suggest that you start your answers with the why you don’t know. ” I don’t use Teapot Sales Report so I don’t know when it updates. “

  160. Sparkly Librarian*

    Coming in late… I’ve been reading The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace book that was brought up last week, and I’m finding it fairly useful! I can’t pin myself down to any of the languages particularly, but as an introspective exercise, I’m learning a lot.

    For example: I feel appreciated when my managers or coworkers treat me with consideration and trust. When my manager leaves me alone to work and lets me check in as I have questions or need support, that’s very nice. When a coworker makes the desk schedule and leaves an hour for prep before my program so I don’t have to set up during my lunch hour, I feel appreciated. Even just hearing “I thought about you/your work when I read this article / talked to the Big Boss about this initiative” notes from my department head make me feel like my work is significant. None of these are exactly Acts of Service, Quality Time, Words of Appreciation, Physical Touch, or Tangible Gifts, but they are great motivators.

  161. Jade*

    I recently started a new job. When I interviewed for the position, I specifically asked if my role within the organization would be X or Y, and I was told Y. I asked about this because I have done X in the past and have neither enjoyed it nor done well with it. I was quite happy when I heard my role would be Y, and it factored into my decision to accept an offer there.

    …So imagine my surprise when I showed up for my first day of work and found out that I am spending 90% of my time in role X! I literally showed up on my first day and was given this schedule and sent to training for this role with no prior warning, and I was too stunned by the situation to have the wherewithal to say anything to anyone about it. I didn’t say anything in the days following because my employer has the rest of the year planned out with me in this alternate role, and I was worried that they would be upset with me for wrecking all their plans. I figured I would try it out, despite my negative experience in this role in the past, and sure enough I am hating it and not doing well in it.

    I don’t know what to do at this point. If I ask my employer to change my role, they will have to change other peoples’ schedules to accommodate this, and will have to train someone else to put in my place (and that’s if they change it at all; they might just tell me I’m stuck with what I’ve got). Plus I’m worried it will make me look bad. They probably didn’t do this switcheroo on purpose, but just forgot what they told me during the hiring process. However, if I stay in this role and continue to under-perform, it will reflect poorly on me, and will make me miserable, which isn’t fair to me. Should I just agree to stay in this role until the end of the year and ask to be changed to something else then, or should I ask about making a change sooner?

    TL;DR- Found out my role at my new job is different from what I was told during interview, and don’t know how to get out of it now.

    1. Graciosa*

      The short answer is that the longer you wait, the worse this will be.

      The earlier you raise the issue, the better off you will be.

      If you had responded immediately when you first heard (“Really? I think there might have been a mistake. I discussed this with Manager at the interview stage because I’m not a good fit for positions that involve X, and I wanted to make sure the role would be focused on Y.”) it would be easily fixed one way or another. You could also have bowed out at that point if it became clear that Y was not on offer.

      As you delay, the conversation with the manager is receding further into the past (and less likely to be remembered). It also seems less important (or why didn’t you raise it sooner?) and more likely to be perceived as an excuse for performance issues rather than a fundamental change in the job you accepted to something you would not have agreed to do. The company is also increasing its investment in your training, without the knowledge that it is not likely to pay off.

      Speak up!

      At this point, your conversation may be more along the lines of asking whether the role change – to a role which he might recall you discussing as something you would not be suited for at the interview stage – is likely to be permanent, or is there an estimate of when you will be able to transition to the job you understood you were hired for. Of course, you want to help out as best you can wherever the company needs you, but you’re probably still – despite your best efforts – not best suited for work in X when you’re real sweet spot is working with Y.

      The sooner you do this, the less reason the employer will have to feel aggrieved because you let this go on so long without mentioning it.

      I’m not saying that to excuse the switch in roles, just warning you that you can create a perception problem for a problem you didn’t originally cause simply by waiting too long to point it out.

      Good luck.

      1. Jade*

        I had a feeling telling them now would be the better choice. It’s just going to be incredibly awkward to bring it up, and I think it would have been no matter what because they literally left me with no time to say anything before throwing me into this role. My first day of work I got called into a meeting where the client asked if I was the new ____, and I sat there, slack-jawed, going “Uhhhhh…” until my supervisor chimed in that I was the new _____. So I just went with it! Now that I think about, yeah this situation is really bananas. It’s like a cheesy 80s comedy. I guess if “Weekend at Bernie’s” has taught me anything, it’s that I can’t let this charade go on any longer.

  162. Regular commenter going anonymous*

    This week my manager delivered some unfair, unreasonable criticisms from higher management of how our very productive team goes about their work. When as to be expected people did not take that well, the manager threatened that he wouldn’t provide us with feedback ever again. How do you deal with a manager who is using manipulation tactics like this and threatening to deny you information that in the future make actually be useful and important?

  163. Eva*

    I’m in a graduate position at a company I love. After trying a few different paths in my twenties, I changed direction and ended up graduating with a bachelor’s degree at 30 and entered the graduate program I am in now.

    All of the young grads are very social and invite me along to their get togethers, and even though I like socialising as much as the next person, I feel like a complete outsider because of my age. In other areas of my life I have a lot of friends of all different age groups, some early twenties and others in their fifties, so I am pretty sure I can get on with people of many ages.

    I feel like if the young grads got rid of their stigma about my age, they’d see I’m just another person to hang out and have fun with. It’s true I probably don’t like to drink as much as they do anymore and a lot of them couldn’t understand the level of life stuff I have gone through lately (divorce, legal battle over property)… do I just give up tying to be part of this group where I just don’t fit in?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If they seem to like you and you think you like them, then give it a few more tries before quitting. Stick to topics that you have in common and see how it goes. Not everyone can discuss everything anyway. I have one person I talk over my house problems with, another person is work problems and yet another person is family problems and so on. Very few people are able to talk about all aspects of life with us.

  164. Jade*

    When you say the employees “did not take that well,” what specifically do you mean? If they didn’t approach this in a calm and professional way (think the way AAM phrases her examples), then I can understand the manager not wanting to share that feedback again. However if everyone did respond in a calm and professional way but the manager is just reacting to the sheer fact that people didn’t agree with the feedback, then I think everyone needs to get together and approach the manager to make it clear that they appreciate and need feedback, but that *also* need their managers to be receptive to feedback from them as well. Something like, “The team feels like you weren’t very receptive to our comments on the feedback you passed along to us the other day. We appreciate receiving feedback because it helps us improve our performance, but we also feel like a part of making the team more productive involves the opportunity to share our own viewpoints with management. We’d like to discuss how we can all ensure that there is a professional dialogue open for both the management team and members of our team. What are your thoughts?”

    1. Jade*

      Sorry, this was meant as a reply to “Regular commenter going anonymous” above. My computer had a hissy fit.

    2. Regular commenter going anonymous*

      People weren’t swearing or yelling, but there was a bit of talking over each other to firmly express displeasure at how impractical and unreasonable the advice was. We can understand why he may not want to broach that specific issue again, but threatening to deny feedback in general is a problem

      1. Jade*

        Kind of sounds like emotion got the best of people on both sides. I still think your whole team should get together; just revisit this issue with your manager next week, more calmly this time, and present your case.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I’d say, “Since feedback is a normal management function, I am not sure that withholding feedback is in the best interests of the company. Feedback that is fair and well-thought out is absolutely vital to the survival of the company. So I am not sure how lack of feedback will help us.”

  165. Sigrid*

    My wife is thinking of changing careers to accounting. The job she does now (for our state government) is probably 80% what a lay person would consider accounting, and she really enjoys it. I was wondering if any accountants might chime in with answers to:

    1) What kind of degrees are valued in the accounting world? What kind of degrees are useless?
    2) Is the lay person’s idea of accounting — that is, making sure numbers from different areas match up, calculating profit and loss, etc. — an accurate view of accounting? Is there some aspect of the career we don’t know about?
    3) What kinds of jobs do accountants go into? How valuable will her money-handling experience as a non-accountant be for future official accountant jobs?

    I know this is late in the threat, but hopefully someone of an accounting bent drops by and sees it!

    1. Graciosa*

      Not an accountant – so apologies, and I hope you get more comments despite the hour – but I thought I
      would share an outsider’s insight into finance and accounting in a corporate environment.

      I work with a lot of them, and the most successful move past the tracking aspects you describe in question 2 pretty quickly. In a company setting, we care about what kinds of insight the finance team can provide to help guide strategic business decisions.

      For example, they will evaluate the data in a number of different ways (how are product sales performing by region? by product? by salesperson? over time? after a competitive product was released? by advertising type or budget? by biggest change?). Once they find something interesting, they will deep dive the data to figure out *why* sales dropped in State but not Neighboring State (or whatever).

      Then they translate this into a useful summary or powerpoint presentation. They know what tools to use (graph vs. list vs. pie chart) to make the information most easily understood by the audience. They know the business well enough to know what is important and what is not. They are the masters of a critical tool that helps the business make decisions, and using that information effectively is incredibly powerful.

      Merely recording transactions and balancing the books is not nearly as important, although entry level finance folks have to do some of it to learn the systems. Money handling in that sense has to be done (and done correctly), but it’s not nearly as valuable as someone who can offer real insight about factors affecting financial performance in the right way at the right time.

      In a large company, the finance people who can do that have well paid jobs that are very secure in highly valued roles. I have enormous respect for them.

  166. Accidental Analyst*

    Just read an article about men tracking their female coworkers periods so they can avoid them on pms days. Link to follow

    I know I can get volatile around my period (but it’s not a set day) and I’m working on it. But how the hell would you handle it if your coworkers were tracking your cycle?

    2. mander*

      First I’d punch them for being such asshats. Then I’d ask them to keep me informed of when they expect this event, because I have a long standing medical issue that makes them extremely unpredictable, often months apart, and I’m always surprised when my period starts.

    3. Panda Bandit*

      I’d turn it right back on them. Men have 24 hour hormone cycles. They’re most likely to be irritable or angry in the morning and I would point that out with great relish.

    4. Observer*

      So, the first question is how do these guys have enough information for the app to work? It’s one when you are living with someone who tells you that her period has begun. After a couple of months, the app should have the necessary info for reasonable accuracy. But, at WORK?!

  167. Jessen*

    Random question – when I interviewed for my current job, they asked for 2 references that were not my direct manager at any previous job. Is this common?

    1. Graciosa*

      Not at all, but it’s an interesting idea. I suppose this would let them uncover people who are charming and helpful only to people above them on the org chart but nasty to peers and subordinates.

      1. Jessen*

        On the other hand, it puts the burden on the candidate to find references among a group of people not usually available for giving references.

    2. AliceBD*

      I’ve had that before! I haven’t worked or applied lots of places in my life so I don’t know if it is common.

  168. caramelapplespice*

    Hi. I’m worried about listing one of my previous employers as a reference on my resume. I saw Alison’s advice of calling and of working something out, but that would give me way too much anxiety.

    The company was small (only about 8 people), so there isn’t an HR department they could call instead.

    While I was working there, I was harassed. (Or maybe I have to just say it was a “hostile work environment;” not sure what the proper term is, but I digress.)

    It was things like:
    -Inappropriate, mean comments about my body (my breasts, my butt, how they look in my outfit, how they look in general, how much they disapprove of them)
    -Coming up behind me at my desk and trying to startle or scare me (screaming, popping large balloons over my head)
    -Stealing my things (phone, wallet, other items) and locking them in cabinets so I couldn’t get to them
    -Finding any reason to email me about how “stupid” or “incompetent” I was and being downright awful to me (because I had a typo in a email or whatever)

    I think the reason I was picked on was because
    a) Everyone was really scared the company was going to go under and they’d lose their job. I was hired last, so it made me an easy target.
    b) I have Asperger’s and have trouble fitting in socially sometimes, so in a small group, I’m easily the odd man out when they want a scapegoat

    The CEO didn’t do ANYTHING about the problems, though he was aware, and often in the same room when it was happening. When I complained, he told me that I had to learn to deal with it on my own if I want to become a good leader.

    I’m worried about people calling him for a reference because:
    1.) My last week of employment, I kept calling out because I couldn’t bring myself to be in such a toxic environment. I WANTED to transition out smoothly, but after 8 months of emotional abuse, I got to a breaking point where I stayed home and cried and cried and cried. I had had it and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t bring myself to go back there again.

    But as a result… things I was supposed to have done weren’t done. I managed to come into the office to quit (and still stayed for a half-day at the CEO’s request to finish some things that “only” I could do). Regardless… it is true I quit and didn’t finish things I was supposed to that last week (though it was the only time I didn’t do something by the timeline).

    2. I have reason to believe that after I quit he said awful things about me, though I don’t know what. I received an email from one of the employees who wasn’t even one of the people who had been harassing me (after I didn’t even work there anymore so I don’t know what her problem was) about how stupid I am and etc. I also know that after other employees quit when I was still working there, the CEO would talk shit about them in meetings. (I think it was to show they were “bad” and he’s “good” so don’t turn against him.)

    3. He was also just weird and gave me weird feedback when I was working there. Like, I made a comment in a meeting when he openly asked for suggestions, and it ended up becoming a larger discussion. Later he told me he was disappointed by my lack of leadership skills for not being prepared with a presentation. (Hello!!! I didn’t even know you were going to ask this question at the meeting!)

    4. After I left, I received a text from a coworker, telling me that the CEO told him I this coworker $300 because I wouldn’t be carpooling anymore. When I said no that’s ridiculous, he kept sending me threatening texts, so I ended up blocking him.

    So… Do you think I should have a friend call and pretend to ask for a reference to see what he says? Or just warn hiring managers if they call? (I was thinking of doing the second one regardless, but I don’t know how to phrase it without raising any red flags… help???)

    I honestly don’t know what he’d say to them, but he’s a very very good liar, and he’s also very charismatic. I also don’t want to diminish the work I did there, because despite all this crap, I was very successful in the role and really helped turn the company around. (And I have hard data to prove it.) Also, I can’t imagine anyone else at any of my other companies saying anything bad about me, and my references are awesome.

    What do I say to employers?

    1. Graciosa*

      I think you need to take a look at some of Alison’s scripts for situations where you think you will have one bad reference. The reasons you give to explain it can vary – culture fit, inconsistent visions for the role, whatever – as long as you don’t say *anything* remotely like what you’ve put in here. There is a temptation to explain why this was so terrible and how crazy your boss is and why no one should believe him, but if you do this during an interview you will lose your chance at the job.

      As a hiring manager, my job is to get the best person for the role. It is not to determine the truth of what happened. Some people have had genuinely terrible experiences with genuinely terrible bosses. Other people are genuinely terrible employees – or people with a love for drama – or a lack of perspective – or some other trait that I don’t want to deal with on my team. It is hard to tell the two apart, as their narratives in an interview can be pretty much the same.

      And remember – my job is not to adjudicate the dispute. I just need to pick the best candidate.

      There is one factor I can legitimately assess in the interview to give me a clue, and that is whether or not the candidate understands that it is not considered professional to say negative things about a previous employer (even if this is deserved). That’s why there are protocols for handling this professionally using codes like those above (“culture fit” etc.).

      If you adhere to professional rules about handling this situation – with no more than a neutral, coded explanation for why this boss might not give you a great reference – and your other references are very good, I would still hire you. Hiring managers do know that there are terrible bosses out there, but you didn’t involve me in the drama, had an otherwise good reputation, and behaved the way a professional would. No problems in my view.

      If you share the drama, you’re telling me you don’t behave as a professional would – which leaves me wondering whether the situation as was you described it or you’ve just got some other issues that I don’t want to deal with. As it’s not my job to sort that out, the easier thing for me to do is to move on to another candidate.

      Do not overshare if you want the job.

      Regarding your question about faking reference checks, I honestly don’t see the point. There’s not likely going to be anything you can do with whatever you discover – even very negative references can be pretty easy to defend, and a very charismatic good liar is not likely to say something that will be actionable. The only thing it will do is add to your stress at a time when you don’t need it.

      Best wishes

      1. helloitsme*

        Thank you, I appreciate it!

        In past jobs I’ve been to, I’ve never ever said anything even remotely negative about past work experiences in the slightest. When they ask me why I left, I just talk about the new opportunity I was offered. I’ve never complained about a past employer, even when I’m asked interview questions that try to get that out of me.

        (I only mentioned the things here to give some perspective, and because this is anonymous.)

        I’ve also never had an interviewer call my past employers though (only the references I provided), so that’s why I was asking.

        I did see a couple posts where Alison gave advice about giving a “heads up,” but I missed the suggestions of things to say, so thank you for pointing out she mentioned that. (“By the way, I had glowing reviews from my boss at that job, but our relationship became strained toward the end and I worry that it could color that reference.” ) That’s even a bit scary to say, because then they could still ask me about it, but I think if I make the focus more about all the great work I did for the other 8 months (despite that last week when I was transitioning out), I’d hope it’d go over better.

        1. helloitsme*

          Was there a post I’m missing? I didn’t see the one where she talked about culture fit or inconsistent visions for the role… or was that just your suggestion?

          1. TheLazyB*

            Not the person who posted that, but it reads to me like that are just possible things you could say instead of ‘i was bullied horrendously and had to go’.

            That job sounds absolutely terrible :( so glad you’re out of it now.

    2. Cat Steals Keyboard*

      I just want to say I’m so sorry you were treated like this. And that I hope you get some legal advice about taking action against them, if you can face it.

      1. caramelapplespice*

        Thank you for support. =) It’s been a couple of years now. I’m not sure what I could do, or if it’d help anything anyway though at this point. Just hope it doesn’t mess up getting a future job.

  169. helloitsme*

    Just wondering what I can expect for training coming in as a manager at a new company?

    When I was trained at past companies, I either wasn’t a manager coming into the role (and the day-to-day was laid out already), or it was, “We don’t know what we’re doing! Come in and figure out how to run this place!” I’m assuming for most manager positions it’s something in between those two, but I’ve never done it, so I thought I’d ask!

    1. NicoleK*

      Training is dependent on your company and your boss. I was a first time manager at Old Company. I had very little training as Old Boss had almost no knowledge about my day to day tasks. The trainings that I received were from my peers. Obviously, that should have been a red flag to me.

  170. AliceBD*

    This is mostly a long reflection, but feel free to comment/give advice.

    I’ve been job searching locally for about six weeks, with the encouragement of my boss. I’ve been looking because I am underpaid and there’s not really any upward mobility (except for her position, which I don’t necessarily want to do). I LOVE working with her — and she gives me specific, mostly positive feedback, which I really appreciate — and I enjoy my day-to-day tasks, but I think I’ll be bored in another year. I’m underpaid based on what I’m doing and looking at industry reports for average salaries for my position. She’s going to look into paying me more, but HR is very closed-mouth about max salaries and she doesn’t even know the salary ranges for the people she manages, let alone herself. So I’ve been job searching, and applied (but haven’t heard back yet) from a few places in town. I’ve been very picky about where I’ve been applying to, since I’m looking for a large salary bump, very little travel (a few conferences a year is fine, but not regular travel), and in specific parts of town due to commutes. If I get a job in another part of town I would probably move to be closer to my church when my lease ends next spring.

    And I’m glad I’ve been picky, because now I’m pretty sure I’m moving cities! I went to a reunion the other weekend and was reminded that I know LOTS of people I like in one particular city. And while it has about half the population of my current city, it’s still a state capital, has plenty of job prospects (as opposed to my small hometown, which does not) and I have family I like there. Plus it’s a day trip to see my parents, instead of a 3 day weekend at minimum (4 or 5 day weekend is better) because it is closer to my hometown. But I’m so nervous about moving! I moved here for this company, which I was recruited for via personal connections. I was renting a room in a house, so I didn’t have a lot of stuff to move so it wasn’t that hard to do it in 2 weeks. I was closer to the end of my lease, and the lease amount was a lot less so I could just keep paying it. But now I’ll be moving twice as far and have a fully-furnished apartment, so a rental truck my dad drives and a car is not a possibility (and my parents can’t help with a move, and I have new physical restrictions that mean I won’t be good for moving more than a few suitcases — so that means paying movers). And I know I am preemptively nervous, because I just decided a couple of days ago to apply in this city, and found some positions last night, and won’t even submit applications until tomorrow. But I am working for my second company after college, and both times the time from applying to starting work was about six weeks (including phone interview, in-person interview, notice, etc.) So I do feel I need to be thinking about it. I’m also nervous because I LOVE LOVE LOVE my church here. But I have nothing else tying me to this city — just the job, and the friends I’ve made at church since I moved here. While new city has family I like in it, my parents (who I am close with) an easy distance away, and lots of friends there. I’m very family oriented, so it would be good for my mental/emotional health to see them more. But still so nerve-wracking!

    Thanks for reading. :-)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This sounds like a good move for you. I get the nerves, there’s lots to do and consider. And it’s tough to leave good friends behind. I am sure your church will cheer you on. Any move will have points that are tough, but it sounds like overall this move is a good idea and in a very short while you will be glad you did it.

  171. Can I really wear this dress?*

    I know this is pretty late, but:

    I’ve been invited to interview at a company that is in my dream field. Before I knew this job existed, I bought a dress with a print that directly relates to the field (think an awesome glow in the dark teabag print for a teapot making company). No one would know it glows in the dark, since I don’t anticipate interviewing anywhere dark.

    It’s flattering, and it shows my passion for the field. The dress code is very casual, and the interview instructions make that very clear.

    Is it too hokey? I know they want people who love their mission. My husband actually works there in a completely different department than I’d be in, and he thinks it would show dedication and personality.

    Heck. I dunno.

    1. Brown paper packages*

      I think it depends on the culture, the personality of the interviewer, and your personality.

      Personally, I would only do something like after I’ve already met the person and have a good sense of the culture. Also, I tend to dress up for interviews even if it’s a casual office, so I’d keep that in mind too. I can’t imagine it having THAT much of an impact though. (She wore a cool dress to the interview but she has no experience — let’s hire her!) I think the most important thing is that you present yourself well and you feel confident and if it’s going to make you question yourself then I would wear something you feel more comfortable in

    2. Sasha*

      I wouldn’t. It does seem a bit “hokey” to me, and I don’t think it is an effective way of demonstrating passion. That comes from your words and your actions, not your clothes.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Agreed. It feels very gimmicky to me and wouldn’t impress me if I was the hiring manager or on the interview panel.

    3. Chaordic One*

      If you get a second interview, wear it to that.

      If they hire you without a second interview, then wear it sometime during the first week when you start.

  172. Gobalt*

    Our newest recruit is a working mom – to a team that come next month will all be working parents, except me as Manager. We’re a small outfit with fixed hours so timekeeping and leave planning is a well oiled machine, with the exception of sick/emergency leave which is extended to everyone because obviously, life happens.

    My problem is that the new recruit (this is her first full time role since having her 3 kids) thinks that in terms of timekeeping and leave requests she deserves some kind of special treatment…and she always brings it back to the fact she has kids. She asked for the full week of midterm off and as other team members have most of it booked off I could only approve certain days…she got a bit hostile and said ‘oh, I suppose I’ll have to try and find someone to watch the kids because I won’t be able to spend time with them’ and I explained in a small unit which happens to be almost full of working parents this is the reality. She’s also consistently late for work (flexor hours aren’t an option due to the nature of what we do) and says it’s because ‘dropping the kids to daycare if one thing goes wrong the whole thing is ruined’. She’s not a single parent and has a stable family set up.

    How do I get her to understand that in a small team where almost everyone is a mom or dad this is the reality of working full time and that her kids don’t dictate the ordinary rules don’t apply to her? I’m sympathetic to all she has going on and I know her kids are the most important kids in the world to her….but all my staff (will soon) have kids and for the company to run it means saying no to employees about time off etc….even if little Jimmy has the lead in the school play.

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      Actually, I would remove as much discussion about the parental status of other people on team as much as you can. It sounds like for your office to run, people need to have fixed hours and be on time. It really doesn’t matter that other people are parents, right? Introducing that factor opens up her ability to say things like, “Well, Louisa’s husband can pick up the kids and mine can’t” or “Joe only has two kids and I have three” and NONE OF THAT MATTERS. What matters is her workplace behavior. (I think focusing on the parental aspect could also backfire dramatically if you hire someone in the future who is not a parent, as I’m sure you wouldn’t expect that hypothetical new person to do more work to cover for parents.)

      Instead, I’d clearly lay out the expectations for the job and use one of AAM’s scripts about “Can you agree to this going forward?” Shut down tangents on her parenting responsibilities- not because others are in the same boat, but because it’s not relevant.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah — sit down and say, “I want to be really clear about the expectations for this job, which are XYZ. Knowing that these are firm requirements, will this work for you and can you commit to that going forward, or is this not the right match with what you need schedule-wise?” (I like that language because it suggests that it’s okay for her to say “hmm, no, it’s not the right match for me” — which you want her to say if it’s the truth.)

  173. Eric*

    I’d love some tips on how to handle cold calling recruiters.

    My parents are older and have some health issues, so I pick up every call I get in case, God forbid, something’s happened to them. The problem is, most of the calls I get are uninvited calls from recruiters. I work in an open office too, so I get really worried that someone overhears it, thinks I’m looking to leave, and passes that up the chain to my boss.

    Fellow open office plan people, what do you do about this situation?

    1. brown paper packages*

      Tell them that now isn’t a good time. Either tell them a better time to call, to email you instead, or that you’re not interested and not to call you anymore. You don’t have to engage in a whole phone conversation just because someone calls you.

      1. Eric*

        I usually (“usually” because I’m an NYC based software engineer; our job market favors the employee more than most others) leave it at “you’re calling me in the middle of my work day, please don’t do that, good bye.” It’s just that like twice I’ve gotten a snooty email back about how they were trying to call me when they thought I was free, that’s how recruiting works, I’m rude and ungrateful, etc. I was just a bit worried that I was committing some major error. Thank you!

          1. Eric*

            Of course. If you’re making demands of my time and you’re not somehow responsible for my paycheck, one of my parents, or one of my friends, you’re giving me good reasons to not work with you. I just don’t want people trashing me behind my back and making it harder for me to get work down the road. I have no clue if recruiters do that or not, so that’s why I’m asking.

            Honestly I don’t work with agency recruiters at all because I’ve had very few non-negative experiences with them after 5+ years in the professional world, but I know nothing good will come of saying that. I just leave it at “I’m not looking right now, but thank you.”

      1. Eric*

        OK, yeah, that’s what I was worried about. I feel a little awkward about bringing it up because I’ve only been at this job a few months. The thought of my superiors thinking that I hate the job so much that I’m not even hiding my job hunting kinda scares me.

        But I figure that here honesty’s the best policy. I needed to hear you say it (doubly so because I like your screen name). “Hi boss man, I pick up whenever I get a call at work because my folks are older and I’m an only child, so if God forbid anything happens to them, I need to know ASAP. Sometimes recruiters cold call, but I’m not looking.”

  174. Roz*

    I have hit a crossroads in my life and would love advice if anyone is still reading this thread.

    So a little background. Right now I’m working in arts marketing in NYC. I’m underpaid, even for the industry, and definitely for my job title. I’ve been with my company for four years now and worked my way from intern to an Assistant Director of the department level. (That last title change didn’t even come with a raise.)

    I have a really fantastic opportunity on the horizon that I’m really excited about to basically come on as a operations/project manager type for a startup web development company that we worked with. The owner and I had a great working relationship and clearly sync up super well. I’d be the first full-time, salaried employee he’d bring on other than himself. (The rest of the team are contractors.) The salary would be a big bump, and I was excited that the numbers I gave him were in line with what he was expecting. (We’re talking like a 50-60% increase.)

    Since this is a very new thing for the company, he wants to make sure that everything is prepped. He wants to have three months of all of the costs of having me socked away in advance. While the company is doing well, it’s still small and he wants to have padding in case of sudden disaster. He’s predicting maybe 3-4 months.

    So here’s where I am. My lease is up the end of October. I really, really want to move to Boston. I have a warm welcome waiting for me, so I don’t have to worry about having an apartment lined up in advance. This position would be remote, which means that living anywhere I want isn’t a big deal, but obviously there are several months in between my lease ending and actually starting work with this new company.

    My savings are not where they should be because of a disastrous situation with my roommate missing rent for several months. This is also a reason why I don’t want to renew my lease with my current roommate.

    Potential routes I’ve considered:

    1) Get a short-term sublet in NYC after my lease expires for 2-4 months and move to Boston after the new job happens. Downside: moving multiple times in a short timeframe and the cost involved with that, the added stress of hunting for sublets, etc. Possibly just look for someplace furnished and put my stuff in storage for this time period.

    2) Try to see if I can renew my lease with a different roommate and then break it when I’m ready to move to Boston — or just delay the move for a year. Downside: hunting for a roommate, the legal implications of getting out of my lease, or the delay of making the move to Boston that I really want to make.

    3) Move to Boston and see if my current job would let me work remotely for a few months. I can spin it as being beneficial for them having a lot of notice for me leaving and then having an easier transition, as I’ve become pretty integral for the company. Downside: this is pretty much committing to a Boston move in November, and I might end up in a bind if I bring it up and they say no.

    4) Move to Boston and try to just freelance for a couple months. Downside: I’ve never done this before and have little idea how to. I do have marketable skills, but this is obviously a risk. There would also be the issue of keeping health insurance in this instance.

    5) Act as if it’s not happening and just keep looking for other jobs in NYC.

    There may be more solutions available to me, or I imagine folks might have insight about the potential routes I’ve already considered. I’m really ready to just make a big change in my life, it’s just all of this timing that’s tricky!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am a conservative person. I don’t take big risks,so this is fwiw. While this new job sounds great, you don’t have it yet. It makes me nervous that he has to save up to pay you. This could be a situation where even when you have the job you still don’t know if you are going to get paid.

      I would play all ends against the middle.

      On the apartment front, I would hunt for a new roommate and look around for a sublet. See which one arrives first.

      On the job front, since you want to move to Boston, I would look for other jobs in Boston. It sounds like you have put a lot of stock in this one job and I think that looking around is the best thing for you to do.

    2. Gobalt*

      Whilst the new ‘boss’ has the best of intentions the job offer could disappear tomorrow. That’s not me being cynical, that’s me being cautiously realistic. I would go for the sublet as the first choice, or potentially a new room mate as a second. Don’t let your current employer know what you’re planning until you’ve signed a contract with the new job. Be excited about your plans in the meantime and wait for the paperwork to make things more official.

    3. it happens*

      And now for Debbie Downer’s response. Start ups fail, they just do, for lots of reasons. A very small few succeed. Read the posts above about the Medium article by the woman who worked at a startup and didn’t get paid for a month. That’s no position for a person with no financial cushion to be in. If you want to move to Boston, do it. Ask your job if you can work remotely while you find a job there. Maybe the funding for the start up will come through, and you can work remotely at that as well. And maybe the funding won’t come through. Or maybe just the four month cushion the founder wants to have for your salary and no more after that. I get that this is a person who knows and values your work and who is enthusiastic about doing something new. You just don’t want to be that person who can’t pay the rent because there wasn’t enough money for payroll this month… Build up your financial cushion and resume/portfolio by doing freelance work on the side (even for start ups.) And then if you really want to work in the start up world you will have no problem finding plenty of them in Boston.
      I’m just an anonymous internet commenter, so I may have just told you to walk away from the next Facebook, so take the advice with a grain of salt. I wish you the best of outcomes.

  175. MinB*

    I’m mostly a lurker but I want to thank Alison and this community for such excellent advice over the years. I just got a new job thanks to all of you! 25% raise, 70% increase in PTO, a whole host of better benefits, it’s in the field I want, and as far as I can tell, the leadership isn’t toxic and dysfunctional like my current job! So thanks again for helping me stay sane while I was stuck in the old job and for helping me get a much better job when the time came to leave.

  176. Blake A*

    Hi guys,
    I’m a recent graduate who landed a very good analyst-level position in banking a few months ago. The place where I work organizes talks every couple of weeks that are optional to attend, and a few weeks ago I found out a female senior trader gave a talk about what her work is like, her career developmet, etc. I was very interested to attend, because I’m curious in trading as a possible career path in the far-future, and I’d like to know her experience as a female trader, since it’s very much a boy’s club. I unfortunately wasn’t able to attend as I was doing off-site training, but I’ve heard her talk was very good. Is it too crazy to email her with some questions, even though I don’t know her and she is much more senior than me? I don’t want to seem like I’m asking for a job in trading or using her as a networking contact or like I’m unhappy in my position (quite the opposite actually). I just don’t know anyone I can ask this type of questions to, and I’m really curious. Do you think it’s a good idea?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d email her and ask her when and where her next presentation will be. Explain that you missed it and you are very interested.
      See what she says. If she invites you to send specific questions, you are in luck.

      1. Blake A*

        Thank you! That’s a good idea. I don’t think she would give another talk, because the bank I work at rotates between different people, but it’s a good excuse to contact her and see if she is open to some questions.

  177. Claire*

    Looking for an old (or maybe recent?) post and I’m having a tough time finding it. It was something about taking a vacation day in the first few weeks of starting a new job in order to move or get settled in a new apartment. Sound familiar to anyone? After searching for a while I’m starting to wonder if I made this up in my head…..

  178. Callietwo*

    I hope I’m not too late to get a response on this… a bit ago there was a discussion about sandals, or open toed shoes for interviews. I posted with a link and was wondering if anyone would weigh in on the appropriateness of the ones I’m considering.

    I’ll post in a reply as I don’t know if links from here are held in moderation or not. They’re called Red Slingback Deborah Sandal by Lena Luisa on Zulily, if the link sits for a while. I’d be wearing a black pair though, not these bright red ones. Thanks!

      1. Graciosa*

        Bingo.

        I wouldn’t wear a peep toe to an interview unless I was *very* certain it would be consistent with the company culture *for interviews*.

        The *for interviews* part is very important. It’s perfectly normal for there to be a difference between what the culture accepts for an existing employee and what would be acceptable for an interview as an external candidate. There’s not always a difference (yes, I know that there are tech companies that expect candidates for programming positions in jeans and sneakers) but it’s very common.

        I routinely wear clothing to work that would disqualify an external candidate instantly. Do not make assumptions that will risk your chance at winning a position you want.

        1. Callietwo*

          This isn’t an external interview- it’s an internal interview with the executive director of my company, who typically wears khaki’s, long sleeve (plain) t-shirts & a vest of some sort and the HR director who also wears pants of some sort (colored jeans, khakis) sweaters and t-shirts. But, I don’t know who else might be involved in the interview as it’s for a senior position at a non-profit. And the interview is at the main office, so I can’t even deduce from how they dress when interviewing others.

          Even with the peep toed heels, I would be more formal than they typically are but I know that is to be expected. I am trying to find another pair of dress shoes that *don’t* show my toes. I was planning on wearing a skirt with various shades of blue, with a white blouse, blazer, silver jewelry but my only closed toed shoes are red or really worn. I live in the middle of nowhere as far as buying new shoes goes.. even the closest walmart is almost 2 hours away! shoot.

  179. Cruciatus*

    I know, I know, I’m so late to this. My work related questions always seem to happen days after this thread opens! This weekend I was at my sister’s wedding (in a “rainforest” at a zoo!) and only getting back now.

    While at the rehearsal dinner, a fellow bridesmaid told me about a job she applied to at the university I currently work at. Now I want to apply… It’s more money, more singular focus than I have now, and you get 2 months off in summer with full benefits.

    So my questions are these:
    1) I’ve been in my administrative support position for just a year now in August. Is that enough time in one position to apply to another at the same university?
    2) My current position is a bit of a mix. I help students who come in (with advisors, directions, office hours, simple schedule questions), I create the semester schedules for all faculty in our school (with the help of program chairs of course). I set faculty survey ratings for students for every single class then download them later and transfer them to each faculty member’s “calculator.” But do any of these types of things transfer to a student affairs role? One of the first things mentioned in the ad is holding student interaction sessions and academic mentoring. I’ve never done anything like that. I don’t even quite know what I’d be doing at those sessions.
    3) If I do apply, do I *have* to tell my supervisor? I feel so damn guilty for wanting to apply and if I don’t get it… She’s….something else. And I really don’t need her to know I’m applying elsewhere. I don’t want her fretting every time a job opens or maybe even finding an excuse to get rid of me somehow. She’s very up and down and I never know how she’ll react to anything. They were excited I made it a year with plans to stay longer (I was the first in a while to do s0). But I don’t like my office tension which is another reason I’d like to apply.
    4) Less important, but I also feel so guilty applying based on my friend’s telling me about the job. I would have discovered the job this week when I looked at my paycheck online (the links are next to each other). Am I a huge jerk for applying? Obviously if I applied and actually got an interview I’d have to tell her but there is also a large chance it’ll just be ignored.

    Any thoughts appreciated.

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