open thread – January 13-14, 2017

by Alison Green on January 13, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Mockingjay*

    I really, really enjoyed Tuesday’s post on “how much money do you make.” It was eye-opening to see how much location affects salary for those with my job title. (I knew it did, but not to the extent.) I also liked reading the job descriptions. We at AAM have some fascinating roles!

    And did you have as much fun as I did trying to guess who was who? *Grin.

    1. Emilia Bedelia*

      Yes! I was very surprised to see someone from my industry/niche (I’m in a pretty specific area) who is many levels above me- it was interesting to see the “next steps” for me, so to speak. While I can obviously see what my superiors are doing at work, I have no idea what their salaries are, so it was interesting to see how salaries grow as one gains experience.

    2. Future Analyst*

      Agreed! I wasn’t trying to figure who was who, but I have returned to it a couple of times over the week to read. It’s genuinely fascinating. One of the biggest discoveries was that salary didn’t vary by region nearly as much as I thought it would. It’s making me re-think leaving a low COL area for a higher COL place.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        Ooooh me too. I’m not burning to move to a high COL area, and certainly not going to move anytime soon, but my money goes a lot further where I am now and that post was helpful in making me realize it!

      3. Sparty*

        I had a coworker leave Chicagoland and go to mid-Michigan and actually got a raise with a lower COL. Granted that company underpaid a bit for Chicagoland, but still.

      4. Anon for this*

        I live in the midwest and I was pretty surprised at how low many of the salaries were in DC, SF, etc., and other high cost of living areas. Encouraged me to stay put!

        1. Doctumentary / Commercial Producer*

          The secret of high COL areas is that a lot of people want to live in them so some companies think they’re doing *you* a favor by deigning to hire you. Hence, there’s not a really big bump, unless you’re at a big company with standardized practices that adds a raise automatically.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          I saw that too, but my company does the same thing, smh. Have the nerve to post mid-career jobs in NYC and start people out at $75k. In NYC? Nah.

            1. Plaidskies*

              I started my career in NYC, and was at $40,000 a year. When I relocated to DC 6 years later, I was at $60K. I did fine and I had roommates, and I lived in a great place in Astoria.

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              Well, the people around me (myself included) have too many expenses (e.g. kids, medical bills, loans, etc.) for that to be livable. I have a few colleagues who are doing it, but just barely, and they’re living with roommates still well into their 30s.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s true and sad/frustrating. Most folks with low salaries in high COL areas are working multiple jobs to make ends meet :(

          1. Drago Cucina*

            When my husband retired from the Army in the late 80s he applied for a position at NYU Hospital. The head of anesthesia commented that everyone liked the three 12 hour days because it made easier to get to their second job. Everyone was a contract employee so no benefits.

            We had a young son, I was pregnant. Nope NYC was out regardless of his parents desires.

      5. Anxa*

        I grew up in the NY metro area, in an affluent small town to boot. A lot of people in my town made obscene amounts of money; others just got there earlier and were hanging on as long as they could. When I left the area, I was amazed to find a lot of starting salaries were just about the same as at home, but what really amazed me was the change in attitudes.

        I found in low COL areas there’s an assumption that people in high COL areas ALL make more money. Tell that to someone on near-minimum wage which may be 15% higher than another states, but where housing is 2x the cost! I even had an interviewer (he was awful, I couldn’t tell if he was being a jerk on purpose) tell me condenscendingly while looking at my resume, “Well don’t expect NYC salaries around here.” I was not expecting anything and was already positively giddy at the the $9/hr wage because it came with benefits (I did not get the job).

    3. Administrative Assistant*

      I was a little sad about how my admin salary compares to other admin salaries, but I’m at a state university, and I do appreciate the benefits. I moved to the private sector for one year, and the salary was about $10,000 higher, but it was a wash when I accounted for the benefits package. When I came back to the university, I was happy to trade the higher salary for more time off, much better 401K matching and a pension plan, and 50% tuition discount for my children (and 90% discount for myself).

        1. Robbenmel*

          Me, too. My spouse at the time and I both worked for the state, and we paid zero for health insurance for us and for all three kids. When I left, I think he was madder about having to start paying for health insurance than he was about anything else…!

      2. Justme*

        We have the same matching percentages where I work. Pay is crappy, but I’m getting a Masters for cheap. And the insurance is spectacular.

    4. Chickaletta*

      I was interesting. I was surprised to see some people in my field were earning a lot more than I had thought according to job advertisements, glassdoor, and the general assumption that it’s not a field that makes a lot of money. I want to know what their secret is!

      1. HR Recruiter*

        I was surprised too! I’m currently looking and so I’ve been reviewing job ads and glassdoor. Everything says I’m being overpaid. But according to other people’s posts I’m actually underpaid.

      2. OfCourseIt'sCashmere*

        Just came to give your user name props! I actually received a plush Chickaletta from my 5yo for Christmas last year!

      1. M*

        Same. I love my manager, co-workers, and the type of work I do, but I’m paid a pittance of a salary and it’s incredibly demoralizing.

    6. Manders*

      I’ll admit, it bummed me out at first because I didn’t realize how little I was making in my high COL area. But now I have some great information for future salary negotiations.

    7. Venus Supreme*

      I was looking through the posts to see who didn’t have a conventional 9-5 office job. Although I’m happy with my current office job I’d like to be away from my desk more. And I’d like to get a sense of how much I could make doing so! I think I remember one person owned their own business as a dog behaviorist? That was cool.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I really liked the post from the Dom – that was cool. The cost of equipment would have me concerned though.

      2. NAME REQUIRED*

        I was hoping to see more of this too, but I am still working through the post. I hope it becomes a regular thing here, very intriguing and useful.

        The salaries and job descriptions were great, but I also liked that some people included what they got their degrees in, or what they transitioned from, etc. I really enjoyed the posts that sorta broke down what they did in their roles as well, I’m always curious about what other people do at work all day – especially people who write in here because all the teapot stuff is so broad and generic (funny, but so generic it’s hard sometimes to get a fuller sense of what some of the problems are)

    8. Sunflower*

      At the first ‘how much money do you make’ I was one of the lowest paid and now it appears I am one of the higher paid for my field/experience. I work in BigLaw so benefits are pretty good but as you can imagine, it’s high pressure and stress. Working in events and being eligible for overtime also pushes my compensation up as there is a lot of overtime/after hours work associated with them.

      I go back and forth a lot, debating whether I’m high or low paid and I was kind of hoping I was on the lower side. I’ve also been wanting to move to NYC for a bit and it’s a little discouraging to see that I’m not going to get as much of a pay bump as I was hoping for by moving to a higher COL. Either way, thanks so much to Allison for doing that again!!!

      1. Triangle Pose*

        Sunflower I’m confised by your post. You work in BigLaw…in a non-attorney role? I thought you were an associate in BigLaw but then you say “working in events and being eligible for overtime” which doesn’t sound like associate role to me.

        1. Sunflower*

          I work for a BigLaw firm in the marketing dept. I’m a coordinator(non-exempt) so I make overtime.

          I guess by ‘field’ i meant event planning as opposed to law! Probably should have prefaced I’m an event planner.

    9. Misquoted*

      I enjoyed it too — very enlightening. And yes, one of my friends found me, mostly because my education is sort of varied.

    10. Sled dog mama*

      Past three years I got 3%, 3%, and 2.5%. I left that job but boss did tell me that he would have been able to give me the max 3% if I had stayed. Took a new job that resulted in a 5% raise and a lower COL. when I finish my certification in the next 18 months or so I’ll be looking at a 20-25% percent bump.

    11. Some kind of coordinator*

      It was fascinating. Also made me nervous because most of the other people with my job title make 1/2 to 2/3 what I do, though – does that mean when I’m done with this position (which is a term, so I know exactly when that is), I’ll have a huge pay cut to look forward to? It looks like “coordinator” is generally an entry-level title, and most people who are departments of one with background and responsibilities like mine seem to be called managers in other organizations.

      1. Manders*

        “Coordinator” is becoming one of those job title buzzwords that can mean about 40 different things. I had “coordinator” in my title when I worked in a call center.

        Now I have “manager” in my title. I don’t manage people, I’m not in a department of one, and I probably never will manage another person at this company. A more accurate title might be “specialist,” but when I look at job postings in the field, I see all kinds of weird titles (including a lot of “gurus,” “ninjas,” “sherpas,” and even the occasional “jedi.”)

        1. Mimmy*

          YES!! At a previous job, my official title was a Teapot Data Coordinator. All I did, at least at first, was data entry.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Ugh, it’s a Silicon Valley thing (gurus/ninjas/sherpas/jedi) that seems to be spreading like the clap—it’s both ridiculous and sometimes offensive.

      2. kw10*

        Job titles vary so much from company to company! I learned that when I was applying for jobs and at different places basically the same job was called Program Assistant, Program Coordinator, and Associate Program Manager. So when your coordinator job ends, hopefully you would be qualified for something higher-sounding with a salary to match :)

    12. krysb*

      For a long time I was underpaid – at the very low end of the median wage for my title and industry – and I had to fight for that $13 an hour. Then, in 2015, we got a new DoO, who looked at my pay and saw what I did and was like “uh-uh.” I was then put on salary (I was a constant overtime seeker), and given a $12,000 a year raise. He still talks about how he almost made me cry in that meeting.

    13. AnotherAnony*

      I realized that I’m in the wrong profession and my salary is really low and everyone makes more than I do! On a serious note, it was interesting to see what other professions make and find out more about it.

      1. Artemesia*

        I was shocked at how little people are paid for substantial jobs. Makes me feel lucky that my kids are doing pretty well and that I made as much as I did although on the low end for my particular profession. In a world where 50K is not a very high salary a lot of people are making a lot more than that doing very important work.

    14. Fortitude Jones*

      I realized I need to stop straddling the line in my field doing risk management/insurance (heavy emphasis on the latter) and fully transition into the former – the risk manager who posted gets PAID. If I could make that where I’m currently living, I could pay off my student loans much quicker.

    15. kw10*

      What I found most interesting was actually not the salaries, but reading about what jobs people have! So many different things and a lot are not what I would think of as common careers. Really fascinating!

    16. Regina 2*

      I can’t say that I read all 2500+ entries, but I actually felt like the salaries this go around were higher than the last go around. I found that interesting; either the reader base that’s coming here is disproportionately in high-paying fields, folks here are getting raises, or wages are going up. I’d like to believe it’s the last one, but I suspect it’s mostly #1.

      I have also been feeling very guilty about my salary (I know, I’m a weirdo) bc I’m in a high COL place that traditionally pays poorly. I had been under the assumption that my current salary was par for my previous high COL/high wage city, but it turns out, I’d be underpaid there. Feel slightly less guilty now!

    17. Anonymous Educator*

      It was fascinating, but what do people think about making it a Google form next time so that the data can be looked at in an easier fashion?

      1. Future Analyst*

        I totally thought about breaking down the info into an Excel sheet, for ease of graphing, etc. Would make it easier to see what the trend is, and which are the outliers. Maybe this weekend!

        1. Just Jess*

          That’s kind of what I did for the 29 jobs related to my field at the mid and senior career levels. Regionally, 11 responses were from the south and 8 were mid-Atlantic, etc. No industry trends jumped out. The median years of experience was 10, but the median salary matched mine. I’m just entering “mid-career” and living in a high COL area. Checks out

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          That’s why I was thinking a Google form, because that automatically dumps input into a spreadsheet (instead of you having to compile it or someone else having to compile it).

          Alison could even share it (read-only, of course) in advance, so people can see the results in real time.

    18. Triangle Pose*

      I really enjoyed it too! Do you think a friendly reader will aggregate the data into a spreadsheet/graph/searchable format like in one of the past years?

      1. Future Analyst*

        I’m up for that! Will see what I can get accomplished this weekend, especially since it’s a long weekend.

    19. Marmalade*

      It was so interesting!
      My main takeaway was just how high most salaries are in America. Taking into account exchange rate etc, most people earn considerably more than they would for the same job in my country (New Zealand), or Western European countries where I have lived.
      (In fact, a couple of the European posters noted this and made comments to the effect of “salaries are generally lower in Europe”).
      I live in an expensive city and I would love an ‘American salary’ for my job!
      Did any other non-USA commenters observe the same?

      1. Caledonia*

        I’m in the UK and noticed that. Then again in the UK anyway, we have -currently- a free national health service, as well as other benefits that generally speaking US workers do not have.
        Despite lower wages, I’d rather keep the way employment works here.

        1. Anon Anon Anon*

          I”m originally from the UK but I’ve spent the majority of my career in the US. The number one reason I won’t go back is because of the low salaries compared to the cost of living.

        2. Marmalade*

          Many people in the US have health insurance through their employer, though, or are insured through ACA and other programs.
          But I agree with your point in general, and especially about other benefits: annual leave, more relaxed work culture, mat leave, etc. And the social safety net in the US is not strong.

      2. Student*

        I’ve always found that fascinating too, but there are solid reasons behind that. There are huge cost of living differences between many European countries and the US, as well as huge cost differences on some specific items (textbooks, medication, jeans, land/housing, certain foods like beef, college education). There are also some huge differences in job security, government services, taxes, and “hidden fees”.

        In my field of science, a well-regarded senior European researcher gets paid half of what his American equivalent does, more in line with entry-level salaries in the field in America. However, in some middle-eastern countries, students still in graduate school for our subject get paid as much as the average American full PhD.

      3. Tau*

        My eyes were very, very wide at the salaries people in my field were earning in the US. I’m both junior and underpaid, sure, but I’m pretty sure there’s no way on Earth I could get some of those figures here in Europe at any stage in my career.

        But like Caledonia said, one has to balance these things against things like health insurance, vacation, worker’s rights, expected working hours, and the like. Even with this added data, I’d still rather stay over here!

      4. Lena*

        I did, but then I also factored in how horrendously expensive their healthcare and tertiary education is.

    20. Anxa*

      I missed Tuesday’s post! Will head over there now. I’ve never made more than 15K a year and I just can’t do it for much longer. I’m going to head over there there now and look to see if there’s anything where you could make 25K+ with a low bar of entry for direct experience.

    21. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I knew that I was paid well for my field and level of seniority, but I didn’t really grasp just how well until I went through the thread and saw other salaries for the same type of position. Honestly, some of the low numbers posted for my field made me pretty furious.

  2. Red Rose*

    Building on the post earlier this week where we reported our salaries, I’d like to know what kind of raises you’ve been getting if you stay with the same job these days. I just got mine (they are annual at the start of most years here) and it was 4%, about what I expected. I’ve been in roughly the same position for 6 years and have never had a higher one.

      2. The Grammarian*

        I didn’t get raises working in higher education. I am hoping that I will, now that I work at a business and not at a university.

      3. ThatGirl*

        My husband (mental health counselor at small private university) got a tiny raise his first year, none since, and a paycut last year (budget woes, university-wide). He was supposed to get a raise in Dec. for FLSA but it was revoked.

      4. 1234*

        I’m in higher ed as well. At my current and past university – both large private universities, totally different geographic regions – we received small (1-3%) annual raises. It’s only the tiniest of bumps in take-home pay, but I’m grateful for it all the same.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          When I worked for a university, we would distinguish between COLA and actual raises. I think folks went over 12 years without a raise (they received COLA in most years, but then the CBA expired and it took 6 years to get a new one signed, which meant 6 years without any income adjustment).

      5. Lemon Zinger*

        I also work in higher ed admin and just got a raise having been in my role for a little less than a year. It was framed as a merit raise, but since it was presented to me by the ED (who doesn’t know me) and was insultingly low, I think it was a COL increase-based raise.

        1. higher ed tenure track*

          no kidding. the merit raise I got this year for the highest rating that they say you only get once in your career here…..2.5.

      6. Lia*

        Yep. The typical raise is 1-2% IF the contract indicates it. In the last 10 years, we have had 6 years with no raises or paycuts. Some are able to negotiate raises (I have), but it is certainly not something to depend on.

        Oh, and we don’t get free tuition or even a discount on it, either. This is a very large state university in the NE.

      7. Ally A*

        In my higher ed department, we receive yearly merit-based increases of around 2.5%/year. The department gets a bucket of money for raises from the college and then distributes them based on performance evals. No one can get more than the 2.5% prescribed increase and very few ever get less than that. I recently got a promotion that included a very nice raise (around 22%) after being here 2 1/2 years.

        1. kbeers0su*

          I don’t even know what to say to this. I work in Student Affairs and have been at three different schools with only one pidly (I think it was COL) raise ever (.7%). So I’m guessing you’re not also in SA?

          1. Ally A*

            Nope, I’m in an academic department (though my job is not academic). It’s also a very large public state university if that matters.

      8. Doink*

        Sigh. So true. I’ve been in my first higher ed job/job out of grad school for a few years now with no pay increase, while living expenses continue to grow. It doesn’t help that I’m at a small-ish public university in a state with serious economic woes. I’m starting to think that it might be time to move on even though I do like my job and don’t have the energy/drive for applications and the ridiculous process that is hiring in academia.

        1. Dr. KMnO4*

          I’m with you on the not having the energy/drive for hiring in academia. As a not-especially-well-paid VAP I’m weighing the pros/cons of applying for jobs to get on the tenure-track and make more money. If I spend the time (and oh how much time it is) and don’t get a job then I’ll feel like my time is wasted. If I don’t spend the time then I’m here next year at the same salary most likely.

      9. Emac*

        I worked in higher ed admin for about 4 years and got a raise every year, including an across the board re-adjustment of salaries once, but I was also part of a union.

      10. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

        I work in higher ed administration as well and generally every year I get a 2-3% raise depending on what score I received on my performance evaluation. I was changed from exempt to salaried non-exempt with the expectation of the new overtime law. My boss says I am very unpaid, so I am getting overtime to try and make a case for an exempt salary to the higher ups.

      11. RavensandOwls*

        They were for us, but in lump sum… our university incorporated a “money for your colleges is based on the research you do, patents/papers you publish, and prestige you get” and, well… we did very well as we’re the science branch of a Research One university. Can’t say the same for some of the others. Everyone got one of two amounts based on their yearly evals, which wasn’t much but it WAS something.

        (I’m still floored that, here in AZ, I got a nearly $10k raise when I went to higher ed from being a teacher with over 5 years experience. It’s so gross.)

      12. Jillociraptor*

        We have mandatory merit and equity increases each year, except they’re not funded at the center, so they end up being a budget cut for most departments. On the one hand, I appreciate that it’s not optional to increase salaries each year, at least a little bit, because the political will it requires to get a substantial increase through is so high. But on the other hand, we work in an area where it’s very hard to monetize our work in a way that comports with our values (e.g. we don’t want to just create more student fees, or charge by the service), so we end up having to cut positions in order to fund others.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      I’m at a big company and they hover between 1-3% for standard raises. I got 6% with a promotion.

      I didn’t get a raise this year but I got a small r.etention b.onus that v.ests over 7 years, which made me LOL because annually it breaks down to less than I spend on makeup.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Ugh, sorry. For me, it’s usually more insulting that they think something measly like that will make up for other things (like not getting a raise, etc.)

    4. Emac*

      I’ve generally gotten about 3%, but last year got about 7% because some new duties were added to my job.

    5. Catalin*

      I’ve been around 3-4% for the last 5 years, but I got a huge raise this last year. It depends on how your company is doing more than anything else.

      1. regina phalange*

        my current company is the first one I’ve worked for who does merit increases every year. I believe standard is 3%. I’ve gotten between 1-4% (the 1% was because I started the job in September so when merit increases came along I had only been with the company three months). When I got promoted the % was much, much higher.

    6. Tech Writer*

      FYI, I haven’t had more than a 3% raise since the early 1990s. Every place I’ve worked since then, I’ve gotten a COLA the first year or two (usually one point something percent) and then heard the “raises are frozen” speech from that point on.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      That sounds about right (even a bit higher than usual) for a long-term position. I tend to get 2% or 3% (I’m considered a bit overpaid here so I can’t really complain) and I usually get 4% after a few years of lower raises. There have been a few years here where I got nothing at all (regardless of good reviews).

    8. Red Reader*

      Our range is usually 2.5-4 percent, depending on the outcome of your performance review. They also usually do a bonus payout and a bonus 401k deposit, each at either a dollar amount or a percentage of your gross pay for the previous year, whichever is higher. I think last year it was $250 or 0.75%? Those are usually end of summer, the raises are effective the first pay check in June.

    9. ThatGirl*

      I was originally a contractor here for 5 1/2 years, and in that time I was paid hourly and got some decent-sized raises, but they were intermittent and I basically had to ask and make a case for one. In those 5 years my pay went up 3 times about $1.25 an hour each time.

      In the past three years since going full time/salaried my raises have been 2, 2.5 and 3% – which has been pretty typical among my team, they didn’t give managers a lot to work with. But now I have health insurance and other benefits.

    10. Temperance*

      I had two raises last year, totaling 50%. That’s not the norm whatsoever, though. I was fairly underpaid.

    11. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Until my current job, for the past 9 years I only got a raise when I moved companies. This year, after being here just about a year, I got a 4% raise. Raises are usually between 1 and 7% from what I understand.

        1. F.*

          No, just an owner who sucks out all the money for himself and leaves just enough to keep the company on life support.

    13. Tableau Wizard*

      Our annual across the board raises are between 2.5-3%.
      In my first two years, I received promotions/raises that totalled an increase in my salary by 50% from my starting salary, though I argued for a portion of that with my original offer (raise of X$ after achieving Y certification).

    15. Poppy*

      I managed to get a 5% raise one year when half my teammembers quit, but that was the only time and I’ve been at my job over 4 years. We get cost of living increases, but they’re hilariously small, less than .5% percent (we’re a non-profit).

    16. Emi.*

      I work for the feds and I get 2.88%, including locality (DC area). It’s my first job so I have no idea how this compares to other years or the private sector.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        That’s really good! Raises were frozen when I worked for the feds, including a freeze on COLA. I think the freeze was lifted in 2014, but our COLA increase was something like 1.6-1.8% (raises were still frozen).

        1. Emi.*

          Oh yay! Thanks :) We’ve been living just fine on what I made before, so it’s all going straight into savings (except for charitable giving).

    19. DaniCalifornia*

      I’ve gotten between 8-9% the last four years at my office. I’ve been here for 4.5 years. It’s a small office and my boss is awesome.

    20. H.C.*

      for me it was about 2-4% annually and about 10% with title promotion (largely same duties but more projects and less supervision)

    21. Bomb Yogi*

      I’ve been with my company (a corporation) for about five years. In the past five years, I’ve held a few different roles: Teapot Maker and Senior Teapot Maker. My company usually gives an annual 3% raise for high performers, which I have gotten every year. When I moved departments two years ago, it was a lateral move but I got an 8% raise. Last year I asked for more money and I got a 4.5% raise overall. Moving from different departments, even laterally, is how a lot of people make more money here.

    22. Hush42*

      I’m definitely not the benchmark because I was underpaid until this past march. In March I got a 15% raise, in August I got a 13% raise, and this coming June I’ll get another raise that’ll be at least 13%. However the one in March was because I got promoted to a different position and the one in June will be because I’ll finally have my Bachelor’s Degree. The one in August was because my manager was trying to bring my pay up to a reasonable level.
      Overall in the company they typically only give performance raises or raises with promotions. I know that one of my co workers hasn’t had a raise in 4 years but that’s partly because she’s been in the same position for 15 years and has reached the upper pay levels for her position.

    23. Today I'm Anon*

      I set raises for our department, so I know the company target for the last 5 years has been around 3%. However, this year is the only year I’ve been at the 3% and that was for company wide reasons, not because of my work. It’s higher all other years (up to 10%), and I’ve nearly doubled the salary I started at. My one direct report’s raises have been significantly higher too, and she deserves every penny.

    24. Econ*

      I was pretty aggressive in my first year, and end up with an 11-12% raise from my starting salary (stepped up at 6 months, then again at year end). The following year, I got a 6-7% raise. I think that raises at my workplace are usually about 2.5% for COLA, and merit-based raises usually 4-8% depending on how the role has grown.

    25. Jadelyn*

      People at my org get anywhere from 0-5% depending on their performance (and their team budget has to average to 3.5% overall, so the manager can’t give everyone 5%). Bad year = PIP and 0-1%; good year but already over your salary range = 1% COLA; average-to-good year = 2-3.5%; excellent year 4-5%. Managers can also request a salary adjustment for their employees separately from the annual increases, if the individual is below where they should be for their experience/education/performance history in the role.

    26. AshK434*

      I work in higher education. I get an annual 1-2% COL adjustment and an additional 3% raise during performance review time.

    27. Graphic Designer (37 years)*

      I got a raise at my current job (10 years so far) after the first year and that was it until 2015 when they cut my hours to 32 from 40 but gave a raise with adjustment to my 401K contribution (less) that I still have the same paycheck amount as if I was doing a 40 hour week.

      The extra day a week off is keep me sane at the moment because the turmoil in this company is stressful since my immediate boss left because the owners don’t know s**t about running it and making intelligent choices money-wise (think bouncing vendor checks).

      And I relate to today’s post about the online job application forms – I think they totally work against the creative people.

    28. Ann Furthermore*

      I just started a new job a couple months ago. It’s a small company, so I have no idea how the review/raise process will go. My last employer was a subsidiary of a huge international corporation. The parent dictated how much was available for raises, and it was never enough, especially in the last couple of years with the focus being on cost control (AKA make people so miserable that they’ll quit, thereby saving you money on severance packages when you finally outsource their jobs). Raises were usually in the range of 1% – 3%, with maybe 4% if you were a superstar. The whole thing irked me…bust your ass all year and get 1% more than the person who just did enough to stay under the radar and get by.

    29. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I’ve been at my company just under a year, so I haven’t been part of the annual raises yet. I have asked my coworker and she says every year we get 2% merit increases, never more, and not more than 6% for a promotion. I’m very curious to know whether this is accurate! It seems pretty low to me.

    30. Anonnnnnn*

      Raises at my company are typically 2% a year for high-performing employees which is unfortunately not really sufficient as even just a cost-of-living increase in my city. Got a 10% raise with a promotion last year which was great but was then not eligible for the 2% raise that year.

      My previous job which had much worse benefits than my current job would typically give 4% per year for high-performers until the company started basically falling apart at which point there were either 1% raises or no raises, and no bonuses for anybody (hence the job change).

      Both corporate desk-jockey type jobs.

    31. Fenchurch*

      In my position, they give us a merit-based raise that tops out at 3% yearly, I’m usually about 2.5%.

      1. Gaara*

        Adding: the 6% was a promotion. The other years, where raises approached zero, were just standard (below-market) raises.

    33. Olive Hornby*

      Old Company started people out low but gave very substantial raises at midyear and end of year–my salary went up about 20% in the ~16 months I was there (no title change during that time.) New Company starts higher but has more standardized 3% raises for non-bonus-eligible employees, plus salary bumps with promotions/title changes.

    34. Anon Anon Anon*

      I’ve been with my current employer for a decade. I’ve gotten a raise of between 3-5% every year. When I’ve received promotions raises have been from 10-20% depending on the type of promotion. It’s enough that my salary has increased by about 75% since I’ve been here.

    35. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I got a 6% raise this year, which was a market adjustment (we don’t have performance raises, just bonuses, but we do have adjustments each year that take into consideration COL as well as changes in the employment market).

    36. Fortitude Jones*

      I got a 2% merit raise after 8 months with my company and then 5.2% raise (at the same time) from the division I was permanently placed in (was in a training program and this was a promotion). Six months later I got a 2.5% raise from that same division (they claimed they prorated it because I hadn’t been there a full year and they had already given me a 5.2% raise. 10 months later, I was promoted into another division and given a 10.2% raise, but again, that was promotion and not merit-based. So if I don’t get another promotion in March, it’ll be interesting to see what the raise will be. If it’s less than 5%, I’m leaving either the company or the division (division jumping tends to produce more cash) – I did entirely too much last year to get what amounts to a damn cost of living increase.

    39. Legal Assistant*

      I’m a complete fluke, but I keep getting excellent raises. I believe it’s b/c the firm realizes their benefits aren’t great. Over the past five years, my raises have been 8%, 8%, 14%, 10% and 11%. In that order.

    40. Felicia*

      I’ve been at this job about 2 and a half years. I got a 10% raise after three months, an additional 15% raise at about a year, and then an additional 14% raise at 2 years. I didn’t have to ask for any of them. I was told in advance that this year, there was no more budget for a raise of more than 3% and I’m undecided if i’ll ask for more.

    41. Tax Accountant*

      I started my first year in public accounting making 50,000. By the end of the first year I was making about 55k, but that year a lot of people quit because they were being underpaid so that 10% was from two different raises, because they looked at the compensation structure after all those people quit and gave those of us left a second raise to get us to market rates. By the end of my second year I was making 58k, then I got a promotion and by the end of my third year I was making 63k. I also got a 2k bonus for passing the CPA exam sometime during my second year.

      Now I’m working for a private company making 65k, and am not expecting more than a 2% raise ever again. But the work is much easier and a lot fewer hours. If I wanted to go back to public accounting, I know I could make a lot more money and have a lot more potential for promotions, etc, but I am not willing to make the lifestyle sacrifices at this point in my life (I have a 2 year old).

    42. Triangle Pose*

      3%-5% every year unless you get a promotion/title change, in which case we’re talking 10%/15%/20% and maybe a higher percentage-of-base-salary bonus. This seems high when reading other commenters but compared to the 50k bonuses from BigLaw, seems low.

    43. hbc*

      My company kinda sucks in this respect. They never raise (ha) the subject themselves, and they’ve failed to act on our requests to set up some sort of guideline or add this as part of the review process. So we’ve got to bring it up, and it’s very awkward, and we kind of have to prove that we’ve earned it even though we have no idea what metric they’re using. And the answer has never been “Ok, cool, you’re right.” It’s “Well, we can put together a two year plan of how you’ll do this and this and get to this other number in 9 months.”

      I truly don’t think they’re doing it on purpose, but it’s a stressful enough cycle that you end up delaying asking until much later than you really should.

    44. Anxa*

      When I first started, we didn’t get a raise in my last job (tutoring at comm college). Then they opened up raises and the past 2 years were about $.25/hour

    45. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I’ve enjoyed a fixed annual 2.5% raise for the past 3 years (since I started working professionally in my field), but we just learned that those are going away for at least the next 3-4 years.

    46. Bad Candidate*

      At my company it’s around 1-3% for merit increases. Last year I was told in my review that I did really well and that it would translate into a better raise. Most people got nothing, so I guess 2.5% was better? I did get a promotion to the next level in November, and got 5% from that, so I guess that’s something.

    47. Nerfmobile*

      I work for a software company. Raises are based on performance, and I know generally at my company the average over the past few years has been between 1% and 2%. I know of people who got 0%, and some high performers who got 4%.

    48. Managing Editor*

      In almost a decade in my previous job, I never received a COL raise or any kind of salary increase that wasn’t part of a promotion. My first promotion came with a 10% raise, which sounds pretty good but since my starting salary was $28k, it didn’t actually make a huge difference in my paycheck. My last raise/promotion was a 25% raise, which was unexpected and actually enough to be somewhat life-changing. I sort of assume I was underpaid and the giant bump was to put me in line with where other people in my role at the company were, salary-wise.

      And then I was laid off a year later, so -100%. (womp womp)

    49. Anonyby*

      I’m at a non-traded company (though I think if you go up a couple levels of owned-by you’ll get to one, and they pass down their policies). The max raise one can get in a year for performance is 2%. Before we got bought out, we didn’t get any raises at all.

    50. Kat M*

      After my first year at my last job and rave reviews, I got a 4% raise. Apparently my boss got in trouble for that, though, as she didn’t have permission to rate someone as “above target” or give them that much of an increase. The next year she flat-out told me that she was only authorized to give me a maximum of 2.5% increase and I was “on target” in all areas. She asked for and received a demotion shortly after that. She was very happy to be back in direct service and no longer worrying about management drama like that.

  3. Bend & Snap*

    I finally have my foot in the door at a big company and was in final rounds for 2 roles—11 INTERVIEWS in total.
    I followed up on role 1 after the holidays and was told they’d already hired someone. Okay.
    Role 2 I completed the last interviews for last Friday. They asked for references and work samples. I sent those off immediately.
    References haven’t been called and I haven’t heard a peep since. The recruiter thought they’d make a decision this week.
    So…how long till I follow up, and how long till I worry?

    1. Future Analyst*

      I know it sucks (I really, really do), but move on and pretend you’ve heard that they’ve hired someone else. Keep applying elsewhere, and if they do happen to make you an offer, it can be a pleasant surprise. Even if they said they’ll make a decision this week, it really could be months before anything happens.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      I’d wait until the end of the month and follow up with the recruiter ONCE if you haven’t heard by then. After that, move on with your job search and put it out of your mind as best you can. The recruiter is just giving you what they hope will happen, not what is going to happen.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        The other thing I’ve realized as a hiring manager is that even when I’ve made my decision, it might be another week before I can reach out to folks, since there are so many approvals needed, and those folks might be out of the office, etc.

  4. Tech Writer*

    Tech Writers discussion!

    I know some folks wanted to ask questions and carry this discussion into the open thread, so here we are! :)

    1. Sharon*

      I would love to know what others use for document version control. My team is responsible for managing a set of documentation where the “audience” is our external customers. We’re currently managing them as a collection of Word documents, and have a rather long review process. This means that we often manage different versions of a document simultaneously and then have to manually merge the changes into the current master version after it’s approved. It’s a freaking nightmare. We have and use Sharepoint but SP doesn’t do document merging that I know of. Any ideas?

      2. Tech Writer*

        Ours are handled via smoke, magic, and SAP, but (and I think this is key) only the newest version of a doc is live. Once we’ve rolled a new rev, the old rev is immediately archived.

        Does your group assign ownership of documents (“only Jill works on the widget docs; Bob works on gizmos”) or do you all work on everything? Ownership can help with version control too.

      3. Mockingjay*

        SharePoint 2013 allows collaborative editing of one document, using MS Word 2013, but that doesn’t give you control of the process.

        For external reviews by the customer, we use line-numbered PDFs and a spreadsheet to capture comments.

        1. Word Document Draft reviewed internally using SharePoint workflows and version history.

        2. Prepare line-numbered PDF and post (or email) with an Excel sheet to capture comments by external customer. We get stuff such as: “Line 47, describe the step more fully and add a figure to illustrate.”

        3. We then accept or reject the comments, annotating why in the worksheet.

        4. Incorporate accepted comments and changes into the master Word document to produce the final. The excel sheet is used as a checklist to make sure everything got addressed.

        A little cumbersome, but it works. I’ve used it for several federal customers. For some projects, we post in a specific library that the customer has access to. Others we’ve just had to deal with emailing the spreadsheet from one reviewer to the next.

      4. Emac*

        I’m not a tech writer, but could you use Google Docs, since then you could all be editing the document at the same time?

        1. Tech Writer*

          I’m not a fan of shared docs. It’s so easy to inadvertently delete the important change someone else just made… and in some industries, that can be a critical safety issue.

          1. Franzia Spritzer*

            There is a group editing function that shows suggested changes, and a space for a note stating why the change. It has to be approved before any permanent change is applied to the document. If your team is cordial with each other, nobody can inadvertently overwrite someone else’s work.

      5. Algae*

        At an old workplace, we used a software called DocCompliance that was specifically designed for document version control. It was easy to use and the documents could be viewed by anyone, but they could only be changed under the aegis of Document Control. And, while we didn’t use it, they had a companion software that allowed for collaborative editing of documents.

      7. Turtle Candle*

        Our documentation is written in HTML (with CSS for formatting), and then compiled into the required output formats (sometimes online help, sometimes Word, sometimes PDF, sometimes other things). Since HTML files are basically text, we use a version control system (think Git or Subversion), which allows us to review, merge, roll back, etc., any changes that we see on update.

      8. Ann O.*

        I’m not following the specifics of your issue. Would using something like Adobe shared review so that everyone is reviewing a single PDF help (because then there’s a single source for the doc merge)? Or is the issue that you can’t edit live content in the same Word source file because of needing to support the old version?

        Assuming it’s the latter, I think you need to switch out of Word and into something like Framemaker or DITA that supports conditionalization of content.

      9. Jen RO*

        I am not sure exactly what you are asking, so I will answer two questions.

        What do we use internally for collaboration/review?
        Our tools of choice are RoboHelp and FrameMaker, and we have all our source files in a source control system (SVN). This solves the collaboration part very neatly (most of our products have 3+ TW who work together).
        Reviews are done… basically however the TW and the SMEs decide. I prefer to send Word documents back and forth, but some of my BAs would rather do the review in real-time, with screen sharing.

        What do we use to give customers access?
        We have a documentation site that uses a CMS called Umbraco. I don’t recommend it. The upload procedure is painful in Umbraco, so in the end we switch to a simple FTP upload mechanism. Basically, we have the pages themselves in Umbraco, but we link directly to the documents on the FTP server. We don’t have a versioning process in place – if we need to keep more than one version on a certain doc, we just create a new folder or something. In general, we only publish/keep the latest version for one development stream.

    2. The Grammarian*

      I am also here for the tech writing discussion! Do you all author in XML, and if so, what authoring software do you use?

      1. Tech Writer*

        We’re using XMetaL right now, and we also use a content management system. But we’re a pretty big company.

        At my previous, much smaller job, we also used a content management system, and we worked mostly in Word, but we had the ability to edit live content in Dreamweaver. That… was not ideal. ;)

      3. Toodie*

        About two years ago we switched from having PDFs generated in Word and stored in an LMS to having all docs available through a “knowledge base” built on Mindtouch. In that time we’ve also grown from one tech writer to three, and we’re just starting to have some versioning issues.

      4. Ann O.*

        Yay, tech writers!

        My team uses oXygen and authors specifically in DITA. We have a CMS that I hate, but I LOVE oXygen.

    3. Franzia Spritzer*

      I haven’t been able to jump onto AAM until the end of the day today, I hope I’m sooo late to this party!

      I wanted to ask about career development. What were your first steps into tech writing? What is your education? Did you have a trail or writing samples when you were hired? Did you produce those sample when you applied? Is there a cert or expected coursework like with project management or is it trial by fire?

      As I said in the TW thread in the pay post:

      Since the dawn of my working life have always been the person to write process documentation for the role I’m in, from my military jobs to, web dev, retail, non-profit and arts management junk I’ve done. Before the tech bubble burst way back when I’d be invited to dev and design meetings to translate between engineers and designers, read people, and provide non-partisan feedback. I have always enjoyed doing this work, and sadly don’t have much of a trail or writing samples.

      I do have professional samples, just not many. I went through my full CV to highlight the jobs in which writing has been a major part of the work and it looks like about 75% has included process documentation and grant writing, in addition to my blogging (~1996). I have been struggling to find work since I graduated from grad school last spring, and I’m ready to consider pivoting my search in another direction. (Part of that is wrestling with my understanding of experience, I’ve been in the workforce 25 years, AND I just graduated from college. Where do I fit?) I have more than entry level experience writing, but it’s not all in the same place and certainly not under the guise of technical writing, I’m wondering how to repackage my skills for tech writing, if I’m even really a good fit for it.

      1. Sr. Tech Writer*

        I transitioned from a PhD program in a STEM subject to tech writing a loong time ago. I had a friend who was a programmer and he put me in touch with the head of the tech writing department. Word-of-mouth is a great way to get your first tech writing job! She gave me a writing test & I didn’t do that great (problems were more about how to be a tech writer than general writing), but she gave me feedback and then I got the job.

        I don’t hire, so take all of the following with a grain of salt. It sounds like you could be a good tech writer. Some requirements are: you like to learn, you have a certain level of technical fearlessness (you will always be writing about things you don’t fully understand), you can take criticism (because everyone will read your work and it matters more if it is accurate than if it is well-written — ideally, of course, it is both, but sometimes you have to choose), you can be persistent in getting information. Tech writing tends to be feast or famine — you spend a lot of time waiting for the software to be ready to be documented, and then by the time it is, it needs to go out yesterday.

        There are tech writing courses and degrees and though not all tech writers go through them, they will expose you to what tech writing is about. I will post a link in a separate post in a minute. If your local community college has a course, I might look at that — community colleges are cost-effective and you might get a portfolio entry out of it. You might also be able to get a look at professional software. I do not know the current recommending tech writing books, but take a look on Amazon. (The Handbook of Technical Writing seems to be popular — and expensive — but you might be able to pick up an older edition second-hand.)

        For a portfolio, there are a couple ways to create one. There are lots of open source software projects — if you can find one that interests you and that you can contribute to, great! Even better if you are using some kind of HTML or wiki markup to create the doc — it shows you have skills that go beyond Word. However, realistically, these are pretty technical and without access to a technical SME (subject matter expert), it can be hard to get traction. Projects that are less technical may not showcase your tech writing skills (like writing on the Habitica wiki wouldn’t help). I think for entry-level positions, you can construct a bogus project of some kind, one that showcases the different types of things that are in a tech document: overview topic, how-to topics with numbered steps, reference topics, cross-references, autonumbering, importing a file by reference or other way of embedding the same source file two different locations in your document. Basically you need to develop and demonstrate a combination of tools and writing skills.

        Look also for technical editor positions — those require you to use the same tools, but expect less technical savvy and less complexity, so it is certainly a place where some people start.

        It is good to get some exposure to modern tech writing software, if you can. It has a different focus than other software. There are different types.
        Some documentation tools, like Oxygen or Javadoc, are about putting comments inline in someone’s program and then running it through an engine that generates the software from your comments. If you have a friend who programs, they may be able to set up the engine for you and have you work on the comments. This would display your technical fearlessness and ability to work inside the straightjacket of API documentation.
        Some documentation tools are wiki-based, and if you can write instructional stuff on a wiki, that is a good thing to show. GitHub/Markdown are in this category.
        Then there are the proprietary expensive documentation tools, which are the ones that you don’t know what they are and can’t get ahold of to practice on. But they are important. The current approach to tech writing is about writing lots of little topics and then combining them in different ways and publishing them in different places. For example you might deliver the same content three ways: online as HTML, inside a product as help files, and finally as a PDF. So tools are very focused on this content reuse, and that’s important because that does affect the way you organize and write your documentation. Some of the words in this space are: DITA (which is a standard, rather than a tool — one tool that is used for it is XMeTAL), Madcap Flare, RoboHelp. These all use some kind of XML source code to write and store the documentation, with a Wysiwig tool layered on top. As I said, they are focused on short topics that you glue together. It’s less important that you’ve had the exact tool that someone wants, and more important that you have shown you can navigate any one of these complex tools. I personally find DITA too rigid and don’t apply to jobs that require it. For Flare or RoboHelp, you might try the free trials, but presumably they are short-lived (Flare’s is 30 days). There is an intro book for RoboHelp on Amazon — it may not be great, but it would give you a flavor of what these tools involve and steps for learning. Because these tools are so complex, and so idiosyncratic, I think exposure to one of them is a big plus, even if it’s not the exact one they ask for. I use Flare, and I would never hesitate to apply for a job that required RoboHelp, for example.

        Plusses if you can draw a simple diagram. You should also know how to take a screenshot and put it in a document — if I was making a sample from scratch, I would include screenshots if appropriate.

      2. Ann O.*

        Networking. I hate to be so cliche about it, but that’s the way everyone I know who’s done a career switch has done it. Once you’re past the initial switch, it’s easier to get jobs through applying cold. I switched from Social Science academia, but I’d tutored writing in the Engineering department. So I had some proof that I could handle technical content. Although you sounds like a GREAT fit, so you may get lucky with the right cold application.

        I’ve never had to or heard of anyone needing to do a full on portfolio… just a single writing sample. Sometimes companies will have you do a skills test as part of the interview where they give you something to document or edit.

        There’s a lot of jargon in current tech comm departments, so you may want to read some tech writer blogs to get an idea of that. You probably want to know what DITA is, what Information Development/Information Architecture mean, and you may want to be familiar with documentation philosophies like Information Mapping or minimalism. I recommend browsing the Center for Information Development archives for that… I think they’re free and online off the website. But there is a LOT of variety in how companies handle tech writing, so I personally feel that the most important thing is someone learns new tools quickly, can self-teach, and can handle quick changing environments.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I despair of ever being able to do this–every job listing asks for experience in different document software and I have nothing but Word and Acrobat. I don’t even know what these programs are. :'(

      No one cares how well I write and edit because it’s all about software. Oh, and of course I have to be a g*ddamn SME on top of that. Never mind that I spent four years editing dense AF banking software reports and I have NO banking and NO software experience. I found ONE entry-level job I can do and it turns out to be in a horrible place I don’t want to ever move to.

      Also, I wish to h3ll everybody would stop listing jobs as “Technical Writer” when they really mean “Marketing Copywriter.”

      /bitter rant set off by reading pie-in-the-sky job listings and realizing she will never get out of here is now over

      1. Trixie*

        Elizabeth, did you your previous job bring you to the area you live in now? I remembered you were looking for something new and ideally away from current city.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          No, I moved here way back in 2000 after a breakup. I was working down here and going to school, and moved here afterward because of that. I stupidly thought I could stay here but it took me ten years of trying to realize there is NOTHING here for me. I have friends but they’re not close BFF friends, and there is literally nobody to date. (I tried everything, and I’m not the only person here who is experiencing this). Nothing to do, nowhere to go–it’s like a giant prison camp. I take advantage of every opportunity that comes up but none of them ever bear fruit. I might as well be invisible.

          All the jobs suck unless you can code or do massive amounts of Excel, but I will have this problem no matter where I go. That’s why I’m trying to leverage what little skill I have because nobody’s paying me millions of dollars to write books (dream job ahahaha).

      2. Ann O.*

        Find your local Society for Technical Communicators group or equivalent and start going. Breaking into technical communication is often about networking.

        But also, if you’re seeing a lot of the same programs requested (for example, DITA, oXygen/xMetal, Framemaker) Google them and learn what they are. You can do YouTube tutorials. If a team uses DITA, it really is important for a new hire to know how to do it. It can be picked up on the fly, but it takes time. Companies will transition existing writers from Word or Framemaker to DITA because the existing writers have product knowledge. It’s worth it to deal with the tools-related delay. But it’s not worth it for a new hire–especially one without documentation experience. However, none of the tech comm tools that I’ve ever worked with are hard.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          No groups here. I live in Bumblef*ck Egypt. Which is part of the problem.

          They’re not the same–that’s the problem. Most of the listings ask for different stuff. How many programs can there be!? I’ve been making a list. But how can I use a YouTube tutorial for a program I don’t have and can’t afford? Do I have to *koff*find it another way*koff*? Maybe an older copy might be cheaper or even free somewhere…

          1. Ann O.*

            You’re probably running into a bunch of content management systems. There aren’t really that many other specialized things in standard technical communications. Most content management systems aren’t that different from each other outside of the UI. The big difference is whether a team uses Word/Framemaker or DITA/HTML.

            Many programs have 30 day trials, so that’s how you could prep for a specific program. It’s going to be challenging without being able to network, though. :(

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Oh you’re probably right. I see what you mean.

              One of the most frustrating things is the subject matter expertise–“Must have knowledge of automobile manufacturing,” or “Must have 214563265192814 years’ experience in pharmaceutical alchemy with a side of Nicholas Flamel.” I mean, I can see their point. But there just isn’t anything I’m knowledgeable about at that level, not without starting all over again with a completely new degree. I edited banking software recommendation reports for four f*cking years without any knowledge of programming or banking, and did them well. But I was hired as an admin, not an editor; there were no openings in the doc department to move into the entire time I worked there; and I can’t get higher-level admin jobs even if there are lots of reports because THEY ARE ALL EXCEL AND FINANCIAL REPORTS.

              I GIVE UP

      3. Jen RO*

        Tools are sooooo unimportant. If so many companies in the US are making tools a requirement, I think they are making a big mistake. Someone who can write and edit is much, much more of an asset than someone who knows RoboHelp. You can learn the basics in a day! I have a standard presentation I give to all new joiners – it just takes an hour.

        <– frustrated by people who slip through the interview process and DON'T know how to edit.

        (By the way, if you're interested and we can find a way, I'd be glad to give you a video demo of the tools I use at work. They have a free 3o-day trial so you can play with them by yourself afterward.)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, it’s subject matter expertise too, as I commented above. I did apply for a job that would have trained me in their product, but it turned out to be in a location that was a no-go. :(

  5. Catalin*

    When do I inform my bosses that my Grandfather might be dying and I may need to take time off? I’ve already told the people who will cover my work when I’m gone, and my grandboss is vaguely aware of his bad health, but I haven’t brought up any details.

    1. The One with the Brother*

      It was uncertain if my grandmother was going to die in early October. It became more certain later on — my parents called and basically said, “She’s got about a week.” When they were certain, that’s when I gave my boss a head’s up. I might not have, except I took a lot of time off just a few months before for my brother’s (unexpected) death, and since all my family live 500+ miles away, I knew it would mean more than just a day off to attend the services.

    2. Pup Seal*

      First off, I’m sorry about your grandfather.

      If you’re certain your grandfather is going to pass, I’d tell your bosses as soon as possible. At my last job, one of my co-workers got word that her grandfather was in the hospital, and she told our boss about it right away. Not even a day later, he passed away. Since our boss was already aware of the situation, he was already prepared for her to take time off.

      Also, a few years ago, a friend and I were getting coffee together and were discussing our summer plans. He said he was sure a funeral would happen sometime in the summer because his grandma was so sick. Not even a week later, she passed.

    3. Partly Cloudy*

      I’m sorry about your grandfather. :(

      Since your co-workers (“people who would cover [your] work”) already know, I’d tell your bosses immediately. Sometimes bosses get annoyed about being the last to know about stuff like this (impending absences, not personal tragedies) and it may rub them the wrong way that you told your team before them.

    5. Jenbug*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, I’d let them know now. A few years ago, both my grandfather and my uncle were in the hospital at the same time, both in ICU, and I wasn’t sure what was going to happen. I let my direct supervisor know about the situation. Both ended up being okay (though they have both since passed). It was good to let my boss know though just in case I did need time off and also because I might have been a bit distracted/upset.

    6. Jenna P.*

      I am so sorry about your grandfather. Mine just passed away a few weeks ago, when I was just at the tail end of my Christmas vacation. I texted my boss earlier in the vacation, when I got an email from my aunt that he was close to going to tell her that it might happen. Then again when he died.

    7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I am so sorry about your grandfather. I would recommend sharing the news sooner than later. My grandfather was in/out of the hospital with a stroke, and it was very uncertain how severe the stroke was (i.e., would he recover, were we looking at long-term/hospice care, would he pass). I told my boss ASAP, and it made it much easier to take time when I needed to.

      I don’t think you need to wait until his health so deteriorates that it’s an “any day now” situation. I would just let your boss know that he’s in failing health, that it’s unclear when/if he will pass, and that you may need some flexibility when taking time off because of it (and then ask how to help set things up so you can do that).

    8. ChemMoose*

      Tell your boss now and ask what the company policy is on leave. This will give your boss information on your mental state of mind, and if your grandfather does pass, then it makes it easier to tell them.

      I actually asked this question not too long ago & it was answered here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/11/i-dont-want-to-tell-coworkers-about-my-weight-loss-surgery-client-called-me-beloved-and-more.html

      Also as an update, my grandfather just passed yesterday. My company is really great on leave (up to 5 days), but it turns out grandpa didn’t want anyone standing out in the cold. (My family is from Michigan). I’ll take it later when the weather gets nice and we can hold his military salute according to his wishes.

    9. VioletEMT*

      I would say it depends slightly on how much time you’d be taking off and how much notice you’d be able to give.

      My uncle lived a two hour drive away. I told my manager when my uncle went into hospice that we were in an any-day-now sort of situation, and I might need a day near the end and a day or two for the funeral. The day near the end would be shorter notice, and the funeral would have a bit more notice. He said, “Thanks for the heads-up,” and helped me put backups on standby.

  6. Aunt Margie at Work*

    So yeah, driving in today, I thought, hey, it’s Friday. OH! Open thread day. Hey, that’s five syllables. Like a haiku. Yes, i have a long commute. And now I will share its highlights with you:

    Highway Haiku collection:

    My coworker sucks
    Alison I need your help
    Tell me what to say

    I need a new job
    Sculpting rice or chocolate
    Ask a Manager

    Jo ah quin sculpts rice
    His supervisor is nuts
    Ask a Manager

    I can’t take days off
    Wakeen and Jane are dating
    Ask a Manager

      4. Trotwood*

        Oh man, the historical AAM haikus are fun! Tried my hand:

        Work bro ate my lunch
        Spent the afternoon puking
        HR fired me?

        I can’t quite “master”
        What to call Sally’s new beau
        Leave that kink at home

    6. Trout 'Waver*

      One more, limerick style. Thanks for the inspiration, Aunt Margie!

      My boss’s brother needs a liver,
      But I’m not that kind of giver.
      We will all be fired
      And the brother expired
      If not one of us can deliver.

      4. NAME REQUIRED*

        I’m dying … figuratively. This thread is great.

        Hm.. wonder if the guy ever got a liver.

        (my friends son got a liver the other day, 3 days after acute failure out of no where. he’s 12 though, so I’m sure the rush for him was heightened)

    16. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      Alison wishes
      all can shape their working lives
      with satisfaction.

      Self-understanding
      over time yields joy far more
      than fear or loathing.

      To thyself be true
      but also move to the good
      not away from bad.

    17. Ask a Manager* Post author

      These are very funny!

      That said, I’m going to be a curmudgeon here and apologize in advance for that … but as amusing as they are, I prefer we don’t do this kind of stuff here because it adds a lot of comments to what are already very unwieldy open threads (and where people often don’t even bother posting their own questions because they see such a high number of comments already there). I’m sorry!

      1. F.*

        Well, in favor of this type of thing, it sure made me laugh out loud in an otherwise blah day. Maybe you could open up a thread for tomfoolery like this during a relatively slow day. I do get your point about the comment count and am grateful for the ability to shrink conversations.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I agree that it’s an interesting idea. People here have a terrific sense of humor. I wouldn’t mind seeing more of it. Maybe do an open post for tomfoolery once and see how it goes?

          1. Wandering Anon*

            Yes please! Please do an open post and ask people to post their haikus and other (appropriate) AAM-themed short poetry. I really enjoyed these…

    18. Emi.*

      I’m sorry, your boss is a loon.
      That’s not changing anytime soon.
      This policy’s lawful
      But totally awful
      So please start your job search by noon.

  7. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

    Hi AAM Fam!

    I have no debate-stirring family drama this week, but I do have a work-related question. I am currently job-searching, and many employers these days run credit reports. My husband and I are progressing through bankruptcy, having made 3 payments now out of 60.

    In light of the effect this has had on our credit scores, would you recommend mentioning towards the end of any interviews (no bites as of yet)? Perhaps something along the lines of:
    ”So, I noticed in the application that you use credit reports as a component of a candidate’s profile. Can you tell me to what extent you consider these and how much weight you give these as a factor for employment? I ask because my husband and I are going through Chapter 13 bankruptcy, which will obviously be reflected in my credit report. We experienced some tough financial times a few years ago that culminated in bankruptcy, but we have learned a lot from the experience, and are committed to avoiding the kinds of mistakes and behaviors that led to filing bankruptcy. The process has not impacted my ability to do my job in my current position, and I’m confident that it won’t be a problem if I were to move forward as a candidate for you.”

    I’d appreciate any comments from the AAM community. Bankruptcy has actually allowed me to be better at my job. Now that I no longer have the strain and worry that comes from having past-due medical bills, a delinquent car lien, and dozens of debt-collections calls and letters a day, I can fully focus back on my work and have seen less mistakes. I’m also able to better focus on my work instead of being distracted and consumed by financial concerns, and I want to emphasize that my work is not compromised by the fact that we’re in bankruptcy. And yes, this is likely to be relevant, because I am in an accounting-based position in state government now and looking for similar positions at other state agencies.

    Thanks all and Happy Friday!

    Ariel

    1. Bomb Yogi*

      I do financial counseling/coaching and have heard of some companies not hiring someone because of their financial background. Personally, I think it’s really crappy and not a great idea to base employment off of someone’s financial history unless they are in a position where they are going to be handling money, cash flow planning, etc. Or if someone was convicted for stealing money from a previous company, money laundering, or something along those lines, I can certainly understand a company’s hesitancy to hire someone with that particular background.

      For example, I know of a friend who was interviewing at a large church for what was essentially a customer service position. The position did not require any financial background and would not be involved with money at all. She made it through a long interview process and right before they were to offer her the job, they went back into her personal finances and pulled her credit report. She hadn’t filed for bankruptcy but she had some rough years financially, but like you, was “back on track.” They declined to hire her and told her why. It made me so angry for her.

      Sometimes filing for bankruptcy is absolutely the right choice in order to “right” your ship. If a company wouldn’t want to hire me because of some past financial mistakes, then I wouldn’t want to work for them anyway. Personal finance is SO MUCH MORE than a person’s credit score, and a person’s financial health shouldn’t be determined by it. A good credit score is NOT an indication of someone’s financial health.

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        Agreed!
        Someone might have a perfect 800 FICO and be a con artist/thief/embezzler…
        For us, we are young and made some poor choices that were compounded by unexpected medical costs, and while I was humiliated to even consider filing for bankruptcy, I can’t deny that our marriage and my mental health has improved because of it. It’s doubly humiliating to have a Bachelor’s and a Master’s in Accounting and for all intents and purposes consider myself an accountant.
        That’s why it’s so frustrating to think that just looking at a number that doesn’t tell you anything about how it got to be that way might disqualify me from positions for which I’d be a great fit.

        1. Need coffee quick!*

          I hear you. We were hit hard by the recession and had to file chapter 13 to save our home. I, too, am in finance and always worried/worry that my lousy credit score will keep me from being employed. We have actually finished paying it off so slowly improving.

          Hang in there!

      2. Emac*

        I agree, it’s so frustrating. I know there’s an organization in my state (MA) that is trying to stop employers from being able to use credit reports to make hiring decisions. Hopefully they succeed and other states follow!

        1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

          My hope is that since I’m already a state employee, other agencies won’t feel the need to run my credit, and this will be a non-issue… *Fingers crossed!* Then again, if I don’t get any interviews, it won’t matter either. Lol

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I agree, although it also comes up in government jobs and law enforcement because folks are concerned that your precarious financial position can be leveraged against you to blackmail you into doing illegal things in your governmental capacity. That said, when I’ve received a financial questionnaire, it didn’t include a request for my credit score.

    2. Tiffany*

      You’ve made the mistake here of asking a question and then continuing to talk. Ask the question and then stop talking if you want the answer; otherwise you’re providing a monologue. So I’d go with more of a, “I noticed your ad states that the successful candidate must pass a background and credit check. Can you tell me about a time when you had to reject a candidate due to this process?” and then let the other person talk. They may not provide a direct answer, but it might lead to dialogue that will answer your questions.

        1. Sophie Winston*

          Following up on that, I think the key would be keeping your description brief and addressing the main concern head on. My wording isn’t quite right, but I think you get the idea.

          A few years back I/hubby had a medical issue. It’s since resolved, but the resulting expenses were beyond our resources and destroyed our credit rating. I understand the concern about a low credit rating as an indication of financial pressure, but that is not my current situation. We have worked through the appropriate legal channels, have a court directed repayment plan within our means, and are in full compliance with that plan.

          It would be easier if you were further into the plan, but even this early, is there a legal contact that could provide a sort of character reference letter and verifying compliance with terms of the court order?

          Good luck.

          1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

            I’m sure I could get some kind of form letter from our lawyer or the Ch. 13 trustee saying that we are in good standing with our plan.

    3. regina phalange*

      I was just going to ask why employers would run a credit report but since you are in accounting for the state, that makes sense. And I am asking this out of pure curiosity – what kind of effect are we talking about in terms of your credit scores? My credit is meh and I am working to improve it.

      But to answer YOUR question – I think the first part “So, I noticed in the application that you use credit reports as a component of a candidate’s profile. Can you tell me to what extent you consider these and how much weight you give these as a factor for employment?” – my thought/suggestion would be to stop here. Ask the question and allow them to elaborate, and then you can provide additional details as needed.

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        I use Credit Karma, and right now my Transunion and Equifax scores are in the mid-500s, so pretty abysmal. I haven’t checked hubby’s in the past couple of weeks, but I think his are in the same range.

        1. regina phalange*

          I LOVE Credit Karma! I love that it’s free and provides me with just the right info. If it makes you feel better, I totally skipped paying my student loan for like three months last year. I just kind of flaked, for whatever reason, and for that one blip, my score tanked almost 80 points. But at least I could track it on CK!!

          1. krysb*

            I like Credit Karma because it ranges a little low. It was telling me that my credit score was 675, but went to the bank an applied for a mortgage, and my score was actually 725. (I was approved, but ended up deciding against buying a house at that time.) Now, of course, with added credit accounts because of student loans, my credit seems wrecked, despite not having late payments.

    4. Jesmlet*

      We check credit as part of our background check and definitely factor it in, but in my job the people we hire are working in rich/elderly people’s homes. Even if they are a good person, being in a rough financial situation can motivate people to do things they wouldn’t ordinarily do. I don’t know that you’d get a completely honest answer if you ask that question (for me it’s a factor but it’s more about whether your explanation is believable and genuine, I really couldn’t tell you how much weight I give it) but offering an explanation is very helpful. Sometimes I buy the answer, other times I feel like it’s not worth the risk if their other qualifications and personality aren’t WOW enough.

      1. Jesmlet*

        Also, it depends on the type of credit check they run. I’m assuming some places might just get a score, but the way ours are laid out is we see public records, number of accounts in good standing, number of delinquent accounts, how much money is past due, how much of the credit is being utilized, any outstanding loans like mortgages or student loans, things like that and more. It’s not like I’d see a number and be like, Nope. You really have to weigh a lot of information to get a good understanding.

        1. Jadelyn*

          And hopefully the employer will give a candidate the chance to explain things. That’s how we do at my work – I work for a credit union, so we have regulatory standards that require a certain level of background checking for all new hires regardless of their role. Part of that, because we’re a financial institution, includes a credit check. But if something comes back in that check that looks questionable, we reach out to the candidate and ask them about it. They can explain, we might request documentation of some parts of the explanation, etc. I can think of only maybe…three or four times in the past 3 years that we’ve had a background check outright denied.

          So there are ways to humanely do pre-employment credit checking, if it’s really necessary for the job or organization.

          1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

            Agreed!
            I have no objection to the credit checking, but I just hope that if I get interviews where I’m applying and move forward as a candidate, that I’m at least offered the opportunity to explain my credit history and not just automatically dropped as a candidate if they do run the history and see the poor results.

    5. Natalie*

      What advantage or information are you gaining by asking during the interview that can’t wait until you’re offered a job and are actually do the check? It seems to me that if you disclose during the interview, you run the risk of biasing the interviewer against you (subconsciously or no). Whereas if you wait until the actual check, they’ve already decided they like you enough to offer you a job, so they are more likely to overlook issues in the check.

      And FWIW, I would disclose the bankruptcy before the check, so they aren’t startled and you have the opening to explain the circumstances.

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        It’s my understanding that in our state, the checks can be run at any time in the hiring process but are typically done after interviews and reference checks before an actual offer is made. When I first started with the state, my credit was surprisingly good for a college student with limited credit history, so I didn’t worry about it all.
        One thing I do know, though, is that the state is required to abide by the Fair Credit Reporting Act and must, by law tell me if they used my credit report as a negative factor in the (not) hiring decision.

        1. Natalie*

          I still have the same question, then, I guess – what are you hoping to gain by asking this question in the interview? From what you’ve described, I see two possible scenarios:

          1. They ran your credit before calling you into an interview. Presumably they either don’t care about the BK or they are planning on asking you about it.

          2. They plan on running your credit after the interview, in which case you have your chance to disclose the bankruptcy beforehand.

          All you really need to be concerned about in scenario 2 is when the best time to disclose the bankruptcy. If that is your goal with your proposed question, then I would take the question out of it as it comes across as a bit disingenuous. I would just disclose the bankruptcy at an appropriate time.

          1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

            My concern is that I interview, and by all appearances am a stellar candidate, and then they run the credit history and drop me without giving me the opportunity to explain the situation, and perhaps continue with me as a candidate.
            What I would hope to gain by asking is an understanding of how much influence credit history has for their particular position and whether or not the bankruptcy is basically going to cause me to be automatically disqualified as a candidate.

            1. Natalie*

              Sure, I understand being concerned they’ll drop you, that’s why I suggested you disclose ahead of time rather than hope you get an opportunity later. But I don’t think you need to do that in the form of this question. Hopefully it doesn’t seem to nitpicky but it just wouldn’t sit right to me as an interviewer. For one, I would feel put on the spot – if it’s not an automatic disqualification, I probably don’t have an answer for you without looking at your whole candidacy and thinking for a while. I would be concerned about giving you misleading information, one way or another. At best, I would think you were just a little clumsy introducing the topic of your bankruptcy.

              So, given all that, I would personally just disclose it, no question needed. At some point when it’s appropriate: “I understand you perform a credit check for this position. I want to let you know ahead of time that my husband and I are in Chapter 13 bankruptcy, which will obviously be reflected in my credit report. Our repayment* plan is proceeding well and we are committed to avoiding the kinds of mistakes that led to filing bankruptcy. The process has not impacted my ability to do my job in my current position, and I’m confident that it won’t be a problem if I were to move forward as a candidate for you.”

              * I think it’s worth mentioning repayment somewhere if you are talking to someone who isn’t likely to know what all the chapters mean. The common perception of bankruptcy is quite skewed, IME, and many people seem to believe your debts are always just wiped away magically. Making sure they know you’re repaying makes you look more responsible, whether that’s fair or not.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Agree with all of this. The interview is not the best time to bring this up, though I can see why OP might want to.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Please be sure to ask and then re-ask. The second time you ask frame it as, “What types of things do you look for on a credit report?” Notice the assumption that they are looking at it closely. then wait for them to answer.

      My friend applied for an got a job. It would be closer to home and a promotion. She gave notice at her old job and her replacement was hired. Then the New Place called her. They could not hire her because of her bankruptcy. She ended up with no job.

      In my friend’s case it never occurred to her that they would run a credit check and they never told her until after she quit her job. Make sure your BG checks are done before you give notice, don’t let someone assure you that it will be okay. Take the extra care.

      Good luck, I hope you get this new position!

  8. Sunflower*

    The assistant I have issues with has not gotten better. I’ve talked to my boss once and not much has changed. I’m trying really hard to wait for her attitude to bite her in the butt but I’m in BEC mode and things that feel like tattling I’m considering doing bc I’m at my point with her. Wondering whether to talk to my boss again and if so, what to say.

    We were on a conf. call training for a system that my boss has been trying to set up for weeks. Right now, my boss is the only one fully trained(I’m about 75%, assistant about 10%) and I know boss is dying to get some of the work related to this system off her plate. Assistant wants nothing to do with this system. I look over and assistant is not paying attentio, playing on websites and is on 5 DIFFERENT JOB SEARCH WEBSITES. I IM to let her know that I’m going to have her shadow me on the system and she tells me shes not paying attention to the training but that’s fine. WTF
    Later on, on our check in call, we are talking about one of the most important events we have this year and assistant IMs me to ask what event we are talking about because she ‘spaced out’. My debate saying I don’t know because I don’t want to help her but I also don’t want to appear as if I’m not paying attention.

    My friend at work says I need to talk to my boss again. I’ve already spoken with her about other issues that were totally reasonable to bring up but I’m not sure where to go from here. She just doesn’t care- she pushes back and is difficult to work with. I think if she was back in her old dept, she would probably be a fine employee but there’s no job for her there. I’m tempted to not even discourage the job searching at work because the sooner shes gone, the better for me.

    1. Emac*

      Are you the assistant’s supervisor? Have you talked directly to the assistant about these issues and what needs to change?

      If you’re not the supervisor, I’d say you should definitely talk to whoever the supervisor is. If you are the supervisor, I think it would make sense to talk to the assistant first.

      1. Sunflower*

        I’m not her supervisor but I am above her. I’m allowed to assign work to her(and tell her what to do) but I can’t reprimand her or ‘make her’ do anything. My/Our boss is the supervisor.

        1. Emac*

          In that case, you should definitely talk to your boss again, and maybe bring copies of the IM’s from the assistant as proof. You boss might be a lot more motivated to do something if the assistant is obviously not interested in helping out with something that affects the boss’s workload.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          She sounds out of her mind. I would bring it up with your boss, but try to frame it in terms of how it’s impacting your work or the success of the team (instead of sounding like BEC tattling).

          1. Observer*

            I agree. So it’s not “Do you know that Jane was doing job search while were having training?” It “I know that we need better coverage on Program X. Jane and I both need to be trained for this to happen, but she’s not being cooperative about it. For instance, when we did the last training, Jane was busy on other web sites and told me that she’s not paying attention to the training but that’s ok.” (If you still have the IM history, show it to her.)

    2. Temperance*

      Is she your assistant? Your boss’s assistant?

      I think the best course of action, not understanding all the relationships fully, is to make sure this lazy person takes over tasks related to the system she’s ignoring. Because if YOU take on these tasks, she has no incentive to learn, and she won’t.

    3. EA*

      What is your position related to hers?

      I am sure she sucks, she sounds super lazy. But once I had an issue with someone, and I tried to frame it as mentoring/coaching. She really didn’t understand her job. Like she got that she schedules and stocks supplies, but she didn’t understand she is supposed to be proactive about it and not wait to be pestered. Assuming she doesn’t work for you, maybe try and help and see if she will take your advise.

      1. Sunflower*

        She’s our team assistant, I’m a level above her so while I can give her work, I can’t reprimand her or make her do anything. I know part of this is her transition from intern to full time employee but the attitude just makes me want to ask her ‘do you even want to work here?’

        1. zora*

          I’m going to disagree with the idea that part of this is her transition. Acknowledging out loud that she is not paying attention to trainings or calls she has been told to be on is “Refusing To Do Job” not “Still Learning”. Even brand new interns who have a work ethic know that they have to actually pay attention when someone tells them they are going to learn a new system, and good young employees work hard to listen and learn quickly. The way you wrote this comment makes it sound like you are still cutting her too much slack.

          I think you need to straight out tell your boss she is actively deciding to ‘not pay attention’ to important trainings and calls, she is not even trying to learn new tasks, and she needs someone to talk to her about expectations ASAP, because you need an assistant for the department who is actually going to help, and right now she is actually creating MORE work for you, not less. “I do not have time to do her work for her, so what do you want me to do to get X, Y and Z done.”

    4. Jersey's Mom*

      I’d talk to the Boss again, and frame this as “she’s not doing her job, and it’s resulting in me having to complete her tasks; I don’t have time to do her work, how do we handle this”.

      Prep with a list of items that she’s failed on, and include the times that she has stated “I wasn’t listening, can you repeat that”, the amount of time she’s spending on job search sites, etc. You should be prepared to provide specific issues and tasks to the Boss. From the Boss’s perspective, as long as all is getting done, there’s no harm/no foul, so she doesn’t see the need to get rid of the assistant now.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      She’s not paying attention to training? I’d tell her that is a private matter and she shouldn’t tell people that. Or, I’d say something scary (if true) like the boss wants us to be totally familiar with this by next week. Let her know that it is not okay to confide these things. “You know, I am really not a good person to tell that to because I take my job pretty seriously.” Sometimes we have to draw our lines with people or they pull us into their crap.

      Regarding the IMs. Why not say, ” can’t. takes too long to explain.” OR “can’t type right now.”

      Looks like you will have to tell your boss that the problems are on-going. Stick to talking about facts, leave out your opinions and your emotions. I’d let the boss know that she is on job sites and a check of her internet history will show what is going on. Plan out your talking points before you start the conversation that will help you to sound the way you want to sound.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, good advice. Write out the things you want to tell your boss about the problems she is causing, make sure to frame them as problems for the business. Writing it out will allow you to edit out your frustration and things that sound petty, and focus on the most important business reasons she is causing problems.

  9. Murphy*

    More of a vent than a question, but I’ve been trying to discuss details about my maternity leave with my boss for a while, and he keeps blowing off our meetings! Last week he canceled our weekly meeting at the last minute (not unusual). This week, he told me he may not be able to make our weekly meeting, but we should figure out another time that day to meet. Then he came in super late and never got back with me about meeting. Now he’s had nonstop meetings the past two days. I asked him if we could meet this afternoon, and he said OK, but I’m skeptical. I’ve never had to do this before, and I just want to sit down and talk about it! /vent

    1. kbeers0su*

      Depending on how far you are out from leave, it may just not be as high a priority for him right now. I know the antsy feeling that you’re probably having- wanting to know that there’s a plan for continuity. But you may just have to work with his timeline.

      An alternative would be to put in writing your initial thoughts. That might make it more real for him- to see that it’s actually going to happen. And that may kick him into gear on having the discussion.

      1. Murphy*

        I’m due in 3 months. I have a document prepared to give him with what will need to be covered and when. He’s made a comment in the past suggesting that he doesn’t actually understand that I will actually be unavailable for a period of time, so I really want to have this discussion sooner than later. I thought about just putting it on his desk (which I can’t do when he’s completely out of the office) but I’d rather discuss it with him. I will if he doesn’t meet with me today though. I’m somewhat skeptical about whether we actually will.

        1. Security SemiPro*

          Email it with a “I’d like to go over this with you in person, but if that isn’t possible please review by X date, if I don’t hear back I’ll assume don’t need anything more from me and have arranged appropriate coverage.”

          Ideally, you’d have an idea of who can/should cover what and will have that in the plan as well, but I think the appropriateness of that depends on the role and the office. I wouldn’t wait on him to let people know what they’re probably going to have to cover and get them trained on it. He can wake up and engage on the coverage plan at any point, but the day is coming where you will just be gone. For weeks.

      2. Sadsack*

        Yes, emailing him a summary of your leave timeline and major items that need to be transitioned during your absence would probably be a good idea. And can you just put an appointment on the calendar yourself?

        1. Murphy*

          I can in theory, but if something else comes up, he’ll cancel anyway. I know he’s here today, but often he just won’t come in until late, or not at all, when there’s nothing on his calendar and he doesn’t let me know. Over the past 2 months, we’ve probably only had one or two of our scheduled weekly meetings.

          1. Sadsack*

            Can you put yourself on his calendar? Why not schedule it and if it gets rescheduled at least it is still on there. Whether or not you can, I think sending him a summary of it may put it in the back of his mind. I mean, he will have to deal with it eventually because one day you won’t be there! I think this is as proactive as you can be without barging into his office.

            1. Murphy*

              I’m on his calendar at least once a week. He doesn’t reschedule. He just cancels via email and/or doesn’t come into the office.

              I stopped by after lunch to ask if this afternoon is still OK, so we’re on the books for later today. Unless there’s a fire that needs putting out, we should finally meet this time.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I agree with Security SemiPro and Sadsack. Just send him the document you have, explain you’d like to go over it with him in person, but note that if that can’t/doesn’t happen, you expect to begin leave on X date (barring an early delivery date).

    2. 41-Week Induction Anyway*

      When I was in that situation, I ended up documenting a lot of my job so I knew it was at least “out there’ in some capacity. And anytime my boss or a coworker referenced my due date and how I’d still be here a month/week/etc. beforehand, I’d remind them that we’re looking at roughly a five-week window around a due date for a normal birth.

      1. Surprise! 3 Weeks Early*

        I tried really hard to get all my critical work done two weeks before my due date, and I got close, but a few things weren’t on track to be finished… and then, SURPRISE, baby came three weeks early. For a split second, I was stressed about the state that I left my work, but then I just simply didn’t care. I ended up giving in and having an hour phone call four days after my baby was born to handoff a few key items, but I wish I hadn’t had to do even that.

        1. blackcat*

          Yeah, I had a prof in college who was due the 2nd week in January. It was perfect timing to wrap up the fall and take the entire spring as leave. (institution preferred to do parental leave in semester-long chunks).

          Then the baby came at Thanksgiving. The kid was fine, but the end of the class was a mess (for both her and the students). She did have to do a fair amount post-birth to be able to hand off the course to a colleague. It would have been much easier if she had kept someone in the loop as a “just in case” back up plan.

  10. Bomb Yogi*

    Anyone out there who has written a book proposal before?

    I’ve been a freelance writer for one particular media outlet for a decade. I want to approach them about working on a book together and would like to come up with a proposal before I share the idea with them. Any ideas or general advice about publishing?

    1. Tech Writer*

      Do they still put out the annual Writers Market guide? That’s the BEST place to get advice on writing pitches, query letters, and so forth. Might be an online-only thing now.

      1. Beaded Librarian*

        Yes they do, our library gets the latest copy every year. The newest one came out only a couple months ago

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Publishing person here! It really depends on what you mean by book proposal…do you mean writing a book in concert with them or a book published by them?

      If the outlet is not a regular publishing house, you’ll probably want something in between a query letter and a full-on proposal (which includes possible marketing plans and sample chapters). You’ll want to include the main idea, an outline, the intended market, comp titles (similar books already in the market, preferably selling well), and your personal expertise plus any existing marketing platform you may have (Twitter followers, clicks on your articles, etc.).

      You want to show not just that you have a good idea and are able to execute it, but that it’s profitable.

      If you want to co-author a book with them, you should also delineate exactly what their contributions would be, so they can get an idea of the investment they’d have to make.

      If this outlet does publish books regularly, I would seriously consider getting a literary agent, whose job is to help you finesse the proposal.

      Good luck!

    4. Oryx*

      I have written a (successful) book proposal — non-fiction, the book was published last week.

      I researched book proposals to get a feel for format and what was expected. Do you plan on pitching agents or publishers? I went through a small publishing house, no agent needed, and I looked for similar books to see who published them to know which publishing houses to target.

    5. Weeeeeeeeeeeee*

      For the proposal, lay out everything possible. Draft chapter, market numbers, audience, competition.

  11. Take Home Pay*

    What is your take home pay, percentage wise?

    I asked this a few weeks ago late in the day so I don’t think a lot of people saw it. This week’s earlier question with salaries reminded me of it. I was seeing everyone’s salaries and I remembered not all of it ends up in our pockets.

    This past year:
    Gross: $68,600
    Take home: $40, 300
    Take home percentage: 58.7%

    1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

      Gross: $49,509
      Insurance/Retirement/Pretax: $12,184
      Taxes: $7,886
      Net: $29,439
      Take-home %: 59.46%

    3. Peep*

      Gross: $66,000
      Take home: $48,000
      Percentage: 72%
      Also pay $1000 per month into health, hsa, and dependent care.
      I usually owe at the end of the year.

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I happen to have my pay stub on my desk, so I just did the math – I’m at about 61% take home, including voluntary and mandatory deductions.

    6. Justme*

      Last month was 78.45%. Sometimes my payroll deductions are higher (I work at a University and can deduct tuition, or a computer from the bookstore) in addition to the normal taxes and parking and stuff.

    7. SaraBeth*

      Gross: $75,000
      Take Home Pay: $34,400
      Take Home Percentage: 45%
      Taxes, Roth 401K at max, ESPP, and dependent care deductions

    8. jdm*

      16.8% taxes
      7.4% retirement (mandatory for pension)
      9.5% health insurance
      66.4% take-home
      (I gross $44,847 and I take home $29,778)

    9. fiber addict*

      Gross: $91409
      Take home: $43502
      Percentage: 47.6%

      Percentage is low because I am trying to contribute to my 403b as much as possible.

    10. fposte*

      Can you expand a little on what information you’re looking for? We’ve got apples, oranges, and 401ks all mixed up together here.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        Yeah, I don’t think this is really a useful metric. Plus people might owe or get a huge refund at the end of the year anyway if their tax deductions are off.

      2. Take Home Pay*

        Yeah sure, I got this question in hastily so I’m missing some details I wanted to include.

        The 41.3% I pay every month includes state and federal taxes, my 403b, pension contribution, OASDI, Medicare, supplemental insurance (pennies really, so I shouldn’t count that), health insurance.

        I just wanted to see if my take home was the average of what others take home.
        Obviously some of these are benefits that I use (health insurance!) and some that we all see (federal dollars going towards road improvements?!). When I think, I make almost $70k…that’s true and not true at the same time, I’m really working with $40k.

    11. Karanda Baywood*

      Mine wouldn’t really have much meaning, since I contribute significantly to a 401k and an HSA, as well as health insurance for SO and me.

    12. Minerva*

      Gross: $60,275
      Take home: $39046
      Take home percentage: 65%
      Medical/dental, retirement, and auto insurance deductions

    13. Not a full year*

      So, I started this position in March – my numbers for 2016 (including bonuses) are:
      Gross: $47,654
      IRA (starting in Oct): $1,320.03
      Healthcare: $4,999.22
      Fed Tax: $3,358.77
      SS: $2,644.60
      Medicare: $618.49
      State: $1,886.45
      Take Home: $32,826.44, 68.88%

    14. Recruiting/Project Manager*

      Gross (salary plus commission): $62,000
      Take home percentage: 78%
      But I’m not on the company’s health insurance, I have to pay 2 different state taxes and I know I’m under-withholding (which will be super depressing come April).

    15. Hannah*

      Salary: 65,450(excluding 10% bonus)
      Take home: 49,872 (76%)
      Live in Texas, no state taxes.
      I’m single and have 2 deductions on my W4
      Usually do not owe money because I’m still paying student loans.
      My office pays 100% medical, I only have dental/vision/401k/life taken out.

    17. Marzipan*

      I think mine last year would have been roughly in the region of:

      Gross: £29,500
      £3,250 tax
      £2,340 National Insurance
      £2,340 pension
      Take home: £21,570 i.e. 73%

      1. Ony*

        It’s funny how there’s often a popular perception that taxes are higher in countries such as the UK, but we see right here many people in the US pay just as much or more in taxes

        1. esra (also a Canadian)*

          What’s really interesting is they also pay more for healthcare, but don’t actually receive free healthcare.

    18. EngineerInNL*

      So for this past year:

      Gross: $63,400
      Taxes: $16,580
      Others: $3,730 (includes medical/dental, LTD, RSP contributions
      Take home: $43,088 (so 68%)

      Also I’m in Canada

    20. Jadelyn*

      2016 totals:
      Gross: 39,051.16
      Deductions (pre- and post-tax): 3,676.96
      Taxes: 8,065.17
      Take-home: 69.9%

    21. LuvThePets*

      56% –

      My deductions include state and federal taxes, small health and life insurance,
      flex spending deduction, & 403b retirement.

    22. Environmental Engineer*

      I’m right around 60% after health insurance, union dues, 3.5% pension contribution, and 10% deferred comp. contribution (part Roth, part regular post-tax).

    24. Meg*

      I gross $60K, and I take home 60% of that. 3% goes to insurance, 12% to my 401K, and the other 25% is taxes. I tend to get a big refund, though.

    25. anonamasaurus*

      Gross: $43,252.54
      Take Home: $30,127.74
      Percentage: 69.66%
      Deductions: Union dues, retirement/pension plan, fed/state taxes, health insurance (solo), disability and life insurance.

    27. DC_Actuary*

      For this past year:
      Gross pay: $167,000
      Taxes (federal, state, local): $53,000
      Other deductions (401k, HSA, health/dental insurance): $21,500
      Take home pay: $92,500
      Take home percentage: 55.4%

  12. Mimolette*

    Today I have my second interview for a job I really want as a staffer to a public official. Those who have been in my shoes, or interviewed candidates for a similar position: what skills should I highlight/what questions should I ask that are unique to this type of position and I may not have thought of?

    1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

      Mimolette:

      I haven’t been in your exact position, but I am transitioning from nonprofits to government.

      This morning I interviewed with a municipality and don’t know how well I fielded some of the questions.

      I say you’re better off to over-prepare, particularly when it comes to policy positions, growth opportunities, etc. In my experience, interviewers respond really well to those mentions.

      Sorry I cannot be more helpful.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Mimolette*

        Nothing wrong with over-preparing–this is definitely helpful! Thanks, and best of luck to you in your process as well!

    2. Another Lawyer*

      I’ve been an elected official’s staffer before and my favorite question ever came from AAM – “do you have any concerns about my fit for the position?” I found it gave me a chance to address their assumption that I would only want to do policy work and not constituent services as well.

      1. Mimolette*

        That’s a great question, and it reminds me that I should remember to bring up constituent services as well. Thanks!

    4. H.C.*

      I recently transferred from nonprofit to gov’t too, and funny enough have already started interview candidates for my role in other departments.

      When possible, emphasize and give examples of your people, service & conflict resolution skills – particularly during challenging/difficult situations or collaborative projects, since you’ll likely work with constituents who do not agree with the public official, other government agencies who have their own goals and advocacy groups who have specific agendas to put forth. How will you ensure these groups felt like their voices are being heard and addressed?

      Also, when sharing portfolio or samples of prior work – less is more. I recently interviewed someone who brought a 50-page packet of fliers, brochures, handouts, etc. which is NOT HELPFUL at all esp when I only have an hour to go through them.

      1. Mimolette*

        Thank you so much this is so important. I realized yesterday that I didn’t really emphasize my people/conflict skills in my first interview. I had a great example from an org I was involved in during college–but I only talked about my actual jobs (I’m a recent grad). So I’ll make sure to mention that–thank you!

        And I can’t even imagine what would possess someone to hand over a packet that large!

    5. Sparkly Librarian*

      Is this the kind of position that would have contact with citizens calling or emailing to express their concerns? (That’s why it’s on my radar today.) Maybe ask about how the current/previous person handled those, or how the interviewer would want them handled? Then you can talk up your conflict-deescalation skills.

  13. Peep*

    So, I have a lot of work in my current job that I could use to actually show what I’ve done to potential future employers. These are things like training guides, technical documents, elearning courses, etc. The problem is that most are confidential and for internal use only. Any advice on how to handle that?

    I’m not looking for a new job right now but I want a back up plan because you never know.

    1. Sunflower*

      Depending on what you do, is this the type of thing where you would need to show the actual copies of what you do or would listing on your resume be good enough?

      1. Peep*

        Yes, I need to actually show what I’ve done because they are fairly design heavy. I’ve put an artistic spin on technical documents in order to increase retention.

        1. Sunflower*

          I agree with others about retracting the identifying info. That was going to be my first suggestion but I wasn’t sure if that was standard in industries like this. Sounds like it is!

    2. k*

      Would you be to cut out segments of the documents to use as writing samples? Select a portion that shows off your writing style and technical proficiency, but doesn’t include any proprietary information. Along with the sample you could have a written description explain the full scope of the project it was taken from.

      1. Peep*

        For written pieces, this is a good idea. I actually was not thinking of having a sample of my writing. I was more concerned with the look and feel of the things I’ve created.

    3. periwinkle*

      This is when “lorem ipsum” comes in handy. Grab the text and use it to replace as much of the actual text as you can/need to.

  14. TotesMaGoats*

    ACK!! It’s finally happened.

    TLDR: I had a phone interview Thursday. Got the email this morning for the in person. In person is scheduled for this coming Wednesday.

    Long story: Remember when I posted about Job A and Job B, both at the same school but in different divisions. Right. So both got filled. Then Job B was unfilled and got reposted. I applied again because CurrentJob is seventh level of hell/crying everyday and why not. Heard nothing. Then it got posted again. Hmm. Didn’t reapply because nope. Then out of the blue on Monday got a call for a phone interview. For only being 15 minutes I think it went really well. Obviously I said something right.

    I can’t tell you all how excited I am. They need to move fast and I’m happy to give even a shorter notice period than I normally would. That’s where I’m at emotionally and mentally. GMTFO. So, tonight it’s getting a new suit because I’ve stressed eated some extra pounds. So glad I’ve got a spa day scheduled for Monday already. Fingers crossed and good vibes for everyone else you has made it to that next step too.

    3. Hermione*

      Good luck!!

      Just a quick note that if you’re a make-up wearer and your spa day plans include a facial that sometimes you’re not allowed to wear makeup for a certain length of time following the facial.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        No facial this time. Just a steam body treatment and massage. But thanks for the advice. I haven’t gotten a facial in a while.

  15. all aboard the anon train*

    In the past week, I’ve had three recruiters for the SAME company contact me about the SAME position. It’s really annoying. The first recruiter had contacted me months ago and I told her that I wasn’t interested since it was a lateral move to a contract position and I like my full-time permanent position. She contact me again on Monday saying the company is still interested, and I had to reiterate that I’d be hard-pressed to leave for a contract job. And then Weds and Thurs, two different recruiters contacted me about the same position. Ugh.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      Years ago, I had 13 agency recruiters contact me about a particular temp gig. The first agency got me the interview and they rejected me due to not having enough experience with a particular software they used. OK, fair enough.

      For 6 weeks after that, 12 other agency recruiters contacted me for the same gig (roughly the second week of April to Memorial Day). They must have farmed it out to dozens of agencies and used the same flawed job description. It was a pain to tell them that I had interviewed for the gig already. Amazingly enough, the next year I was contacted by another agency or two when the gig came up again, same JD. (it was a cyclical role that didn’t really lend itself to a full time position.)

      1. DatSci*

        A similar thing happened to me a few years back. I interviewed with a company through a headhunter and got the job, I ended up turning it down because I had a few irons in the fire and they couldn’t pay enough to be competitive with other offers I had that required half the commute.

        For up to a YEAR afterwards I was receiving calls from various recruiters for that job. They must have farmed it out to dozens of agencies and had zero luck for quite a while.

    2. Golden Lioness*

      Same thing happened to me a few years back.

      One of the recruiters submitted me without my permission even though I had already told them I had been submitted by someone else and I was already scheduled for an interview. Luckily, I had followed up by e-mail and had documentation… The employer was miffed, of course, but I told them (through an awesome recruiter) that recruiter B had no permission to submit me, attached my e-mails documenting this, and they hired me anyway.

      I hate bad recruiters! This one almost cost me the job.

    3. TakeTheCounterOffer-Maybe*

      Haha. I’ve had that happened to me. A recruiter calls me back to tell me about this awesome opportunity (again). When I told them I interviewed and didn’t get it, they acted surprised. What made this situation even funnier was that the CEO who I interviewed with for this position cold contacts me through LinkedIN asking if I want to come in for an interview, as if they didn’t remember talking to me in the first place. Of course that was a hard no. I have to say it was satisfying seeing the job application up for over a year.

  16. EA*

    Hello Everyone,

    I have been an EA in my current job for a year and 3 months. My boss just got a huge promotion (think from a senior manager to senior VP), and my job changed dramatically. He is now going to board meeting and meeting with the CEO. The schedule has gotten much more intense, and I am working longer hours and doing what I think is much higher level work. I do the budget, so I know what other EAs at this level are making. Do you think it would be better to ask for a raise now, due to the change, or to wait a few months? I figured in a few months I would have some accomplishments related to the new scope of work. The only issue is they are going over budgets now due to his new role, so I didn’t want to miss my window. What do you all think?

    1. kbeers0su*

      I don’t think it would be wrong to ask now, especially given that you’re already seeing an increase/change in your work. Maybe you can approach it like this: “Now that you’ve moved up to senior VP I was hoping you might be able to give me a sense about how my duties may change. I’m already seeing X, Y, and Z changes, but want to make sure I’m prepared for others that you may already know about.”

      Given that supervisor may not even recognize that this is impacting you (given that he’s probably dealing with a lot of his own transition stuff) this might be the first time he even stops to think about this.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Hi EA, did you get a raise after being there a year? Are you getting overtime for the longer hours? If the answer to both of those questions is NO then I would go ahead and ask now. If you did recently get a raise it might be better to wait a bit. But it really depends on so many little things that only you know about the place – like your rapport with your boss, how tightfisted they are (or not), etc…Another option (if you aren’t comfortable asking now) would be to ask if you could revisit your salary in a few months now that the role is requiring more responsibility, hours, and higher-level judgment calls. Good luck!

      1. EA*

        So I am exempt (no OT), and I got the cost of living of 2.75% that everyone gets. We have no merit- you only get a raise when you get a promotion. I think I will at least broach the topic now.

        If you don’t mind- How do I go about factoring in years of experience when determining what to ask for- I have 5, and the EA salaries I know have more- like 10ish. But the work is similar. Should I just try and split the difference between my current salary and theirs?

        1. TL -*

          No, I would just say “my understanding is that my new role pays $X-Y salary” (that aligns with the range the other EAs are getting). If your boss/HR/budget people feels like your inexperience is an issue, she’ll offer something at the lower end; if she doesn’t, she’ll offer a middle or higher number. But if you’re doing the same work, you should be in their range.

          (also, 2.5% of the difference for the next 5 years will most likely not bring you up to current range when you do have commiserate experience and it doesn’t sound like you’d be able to get a raise to adjust for that.)

        2. Lily in NYC*

          I think years of experience don’t matter as much as competence once you hit the 5-year mark in the admin field (I’m also an EA). I wouldn’t even mention it – I would talk more about the increased responsibilities in the role and definitely mention the longer hours since you are exempt.

    3. A Beth*

      Ask now! I spent a year with an additional workload and no additional compensation–I should have asked before I agreed to take it on. I did learn a lot from the experience but I could have used another five grand for the headache.

    5. Golden Lioness*

      Another vote for ask now. It;s the right timing and you have the perfect explanation of why you merit a raise… you have more duties at a higher level.

  17. Roscoe*

    Need a bit of advice here. I’m currently in a base + commission sales role. I’m hoping to transition into a new role that currently doesn’t exist. My question is on negotiating salary. I’ve made increasingly more each year, mainly because of commissions. So how do I go about arguing what i’m worth if I’m no longer bringing in money, and the role doesn’t exist? Is it fair to say that I’ve been making X per year, and I don’t want to take a pay cut, even though my “salary” will be much higher? Even the department is kind of new, so I’m not even sure what budget they have in mind.

    2. Chaordic One*

      NotSoNewReader’s advice is certainly sound.

      In your new role you will hopefully be adding value to your employer and you might be able to explain how your new role will help your coworkers who continue to earn commissions and your employer to increase sales. Or you might be able to make an argument about how your new role will minimize risk and hopefully prevent the potential for losses.

  18. Anon a Bonbon*

    Could anyone with ADD share their stories on how they cope at work? My friend has started 6 jobs in the last 2 years and can’t get past training. Either the trainers get frustrated and act like jerks, or my friend gets frustrated that he isn’t learning fast enough and gets convinced that he should quit before he is fired. Either way, it causes loads of stress, ends poorly, and he is out looking for a new job.
    He has come to the realization that his ADD is at the root of his troubles and I referred him to a great behavioral health center for adults. He remembers the ADD meds from 25 years ago when he was a kid and is understandably reluctant to discuss the option. Has anyone gone through a similar journey? Any comments on therapy vs meds and how it improved your work environment? It would be great if I could share some positive stories with him…or negative stories, it’s all useful.

      1. SystemsLady*

        Respectfully asking, are you saying this having ADHD? Honestly curious what you suggest if so.

        ADHD is one of the most physiologically well-understood mental disorders and most research shows therapy alone is rarely effective. Medication alone works pretty well and medication and therapy is the best if you can make the time.

        Especially if medication scares them, I’d encourage them to talk to their doctor and seek out reliable ADHD support groups (a good way to tell is that it was made by people with ADHD, not by parents of people with ADHD…though good groups in the latter set exist). Dr. Russell Barkley has also written some great books that tackle the causes and effects of ADHD, medication, and coping factors.

        Medication was the single biggest step for me improving at work, along with realizing the strengths and weaknesses the personality parts of adult discovered ADHD give me.

        If medication doesn’t work for them or for family history reasons isn’t an option (which can happen), that’s unfortunate, but they should also know there are a lot of reasonably effective options these days outside of the stimulant class. Some doctors might not be fully up to date there.

        1. SystemsLady*

          (not to mention doctors are better at titrating dose, and there is a new stimulant formulation that has a much smoother dose curve and is less likely to cause the zombie effect, though their insurance might not cover it)

          1. zora*

            This^^ The meds situation is 5000x better than it was when we were kids. I would really encourage him to be open to it and talk to some other ADD folks, and doctors about his options before he decides against it. It doesn’t commit him to anything, but he should at least have the conversations.

        2. Simms*

          I have ADHD and was able to get a handle on it through therapy alone. Honestly I wouldn’t touch medication now for it given what therapy has given me for coping strategies that won’t go away if my insurance changes or I have a financial problem. Medication helps some people but not always everyone.

        3. Kj*

          Meds plus therapy works better. For ADHD and most other dxes. Two points- one, meds are better now that in years past. There are more options, including longer lasting meds, non stimulant meds. Two, CBT for ADHD is effective. And meds alone do not change the base habits. I have ADHD and dyslexia. I got good education and therapy and developed habits that allow me to function without meds. Meds aren’t bad, but therapy does more to help over the very long term. Combining both allow the short term gain of meds plus the long term benefits of better habits.

      2. Jesmlet*

        I’m a big believer in therapy plus medication if you can afford both, medication alone if you can’t. Definitely agree with SystemsLady that medication can make a huge difference (second hand knowledge from observing a couple people plus clinical psych degree), especially as an adult with a clear diagnosis. Meds affect kids differently and it’s very hard to test those things but as an adult I don’t think he needs to be as worried about side effects, etc, plus they’ve come so far in the last few decades.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          Therapy plus neurofeedback was pretty awesome for me. I’m a huge fan of meds, just not for me for personal reasons. But neurofeedback + nutrition + exercise + routines + lists has me functioning pretty darn well.

    2. Emac*

      I have ADD, though I can manage it a lot better now than I did when I was younger. I’ve never had good luck with medication, it makes me too anxious or doesn’t do anything, so I’ve always just coped with creating systems that help keep me focused. One of the best that I use is a (free) app called Pomodoro. It’s a timer that is based on the Pomodoro technique, which is basically having a fixed time where you work, followed by a short break. It seems to be a lot easier to get things done in short chunks. And depending on what I’m doing or how I’m feeling, I can make the work time period longer or shorter.

      But if your friend is not a member of the ADD Forums (addforums.com), I suggest he join there. There are lots of people with great advice and tips.

      1. SystemsLady*

        Google Calendar is great, too! The latest version adds tasks and reminders, and developing a habit of calendar-ing everything is something you can start to do without medication.

        Even attaching a date to something, knowing it can be moved if the date comes and it can wait, is helpful.

        1. Emac*

          Yeah, we use the google suite for email and calendars at work and it’s great! That and the reminder app on my phone are essentials for me.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      If he is at this point in his career, I’d tell him to strongly consider meds. Although I am not ADD, my husband and daughter are. My husband is almost 40 now and sounds similar to your friend…he took the meds of yesteryear and HATED them. They turned him into a zombie so he was understandably reluctant to consider medicating our daughter. I can tell you that medications have advanced drastically and a small dose of a long acting medication may be just what he needs to get on track. Obviously, medication comes with downsides, so he should discuss that in detail with his doctor if he goes that route. (I should also note that my husband has never taken medication since becoming an adult and our daughter is a junior and we stopped medicating her when she reached high school and told her it was time to learn coping mechanisms and study habits. Without knowing the severity of his situation, it’s hard to say if that could work for him or if he’d be better off with medication)

      As for other considerations…..it sounds like your friend needs a job that is ADD friendly in that he has the ability to do a variety of tasks that don’t require long periods of concentration, tediousness, and are not super detail oriented. My husband finally found a job like that. He can interact with customers for a while, make orders, ship orders, clean, merchandise, etc and he can mostly do these tasks in any order he wants as long as it all gets done. Being forced to work on any one task longer than he wants to causes problems. Full disclosure though…my husband is not the breadwinner and works a job with a very modest income ($12 an hour, full time). If your friend is the breadwinner or needs to make substantially more money, I’d really urge him to speak with a professional, explain what needs to happen, and decide the best course of action.

      Good luck to your friend! I’ve seen firsthand what an impact it can have on your professional life.

      1. my two cents*

        I’m an electrical engineer by degree, but I knew after year 3 in college that bench work design was NOT for me. I’ve been working as an ‘applications engineer’ (engineering-level tech support) for about a decade now, between two different companies. It allows me to jump between tech writing, phone/email support, customer visits, and tradeshows while working in a mostly-independent role.

      2. ADD Adult*

        Jobs that are active and involve more short-term rather than long-term deadlines. I work in healthcare now where I am constantly on my feet doing lots of different things in the moment. I struggled at lot in school due to lack of focus and organization, but at work I am a top performer. I don’t have to worry about completing long-term projects or motivating myself to do work at home. The high stakes atmosphere forces me to pay attention better.

        Before I finished college I always worked in retail which was a decent fit for my ADD personality. Most people with ADD need to be managed–I could never run my own business or be a consultant.

        My best friend also has ADD and she is a social worker for a school for mentally ill kids. I know she does really well in that role.

        1. zora*

          I second jobs with some active component. I have gotten stuck in a couple of jobs where I just sit and stare at a screen all day, and even though I never had a lot of the H component, I just get bored and anxious after months and months of sitting still all the time.

          I enjoy much more jobs with at least some element of getting up and moving around. I actually really liked retail and foodservice, but that doesn’t mean you are stuck with low-paid jobs forever. Maybe hotel/hospitality, teaching, there are lots of possibilities. I’ve really liked working on event planning, because of the variety, i have computer-heavy weeks, but then I have other weeks where i’m running around and on my feet.

          With my ADD I have excelled at jobs where I have to keep track of lots of pieces, and ‘multi-tasking’ is actually a virtue. I am highly perceptive, so I tend to look at things from a lot of different perspectives, so things like event logistics, stage managing plays, retail I have done really well at, because my brain naturally likes to have lots of different things to think about and how they all fit together.

          But there are lots of differences within ADD, so I think it’s great for your son if you help him think about soft skills, and what he really enjoys doing, even the aspects of things within something he doesn’t enjoy. Like, okay, you don’t like math class, but what are the things about math you do like and are good at? It helped me a lot as an adult to have a lot of self-awareness about what sides of things I enjoyed and what sides I didn’t. And all of that is very individual, not everyone with ADD works exactly the same. My sister and I both have it, but we are very different in a lot of ways.

      3. SystemsLady*

        I’m a traveling engineer who does one of a very wide variety of things at any given time. Programming, document writing, bug fixing, computer repair, etc. I also shift a lot between working long hours and having a lot of down time.

        Contracting is great for people with ADHD if it’s in something they can naturally focus on, IMO.

        I get nervous about my work ethic during the downtime and hate tedious work (hence why I try to script it :)) but that’s about it.

    5. my two cents*

      I was diagnosed with ADD at age 31 (almost 2 years ago, now). I’m a high-anxiety type, and would barely sleep for maybe 2-3hrs at a time most nights because my brain was constantly racing – recalling old convos, randomly panicking that I had to check email, etc. I started out of the gate with non-stimulant Straterra and it’s honestly been amaaaaazing. I’ve heard other stories from adult ADD folks on Vyvanse(time-release)/Adderrol/Concerta where it seems to have an uneven effect on their focus (either ON when it hits, or sleeping for the whole day when they miss a dose).

      Before I was diagnosed, I used to keep running logs and lists on a GIANT whiteboard in my cube. I used reminder tags within Outlook to insure I wouldn’t let anything go for too long. I had prided myself on being a plate-spinner of sorts, always having multiple support requests or work projects going at a time. I now realize that was how I kept my brain busy ‘enough’ to keep my nerves in check.

      I keep a notebook with me at all times, so at the very least I can doodle along the margins while I take notes – always keeping something around to keep my hands busy is a HUGE help. Also, I’ll stand up when I take a call in my office so that I’m not tempted to open emails as they arrive or otherwise tinker with my computer so that I can stay focused.

      STAYING ENGAGED is a HUGE problem, but it helps to ask questions while taking notes even if it’s just to validate that I understand. I didn’t realize it until diagnosed, but I had developed a habit of using analogies or parallels for processes/products/procedures because I would use them in the form of a question to have the trainer/boss/etc validate that I understood the concept. (ex “oh…so it’s essentially a voltage divider, but with yadda yadda yadda…”)

      It still never feels like ‘everyone else’ is processing the world as quickly as my brain seems to… It gets frustrating to know the answer while someone is only half-way through their question. While it’s frustrating, esp with ADD, to have to keep from interrupting/interjecting while others are talking, I do find it’s usually quite reasonable to (upon waiting for them to finish) go back over the details with them even if it’s just a line-by-line confirmation of their inquiry. It’s hard to track a ‘story’ of details, and breaking it down into parts helps considerably.

      1. MH*

        Hi! I’m 25 and was recently told by a counselor who I was seeing about a stress/anxiety issues that I was probably ADHD which has been suggested by several teachers/authority figures over my childhood/teens years but I had never gotten testing or a clinical diagnoses. I had asked the counselor, since my inability to concentrate stressed me out at work and like you describe I have a hard time shutting down outside work, if I should get proper testing and diagnose and they said since I’d “gotten through college I was fine” which I thought was a really odd remark to make since the symptoms that lead them to suggest I have ADHD affect me in my job and personal life as much as it ever affected me in school. Would you have any recommendations for going about getting a diagnose or testing as an adult?

        1. Record Label GM*

          Please do get a second opinion. I am a high-achieving adult with ADHD among a slew of other mental issues that were diagnosed in my 30s. The sooner you get treatment for issues like these, the sooner you can start to heal. Serious conditions can actually get worse as you get older.

        2. my two cents*

          I had just gone ahead and made an appointment with a nearby Psychiatrist, specifically asking about being tested for adult ADD/ADHD. You can find the simple sample questionnaire online with a quick Google search – see if you find that a lot of them are ringing true, even if they’re things you’ve since come up with work-arounds for.

          The biggest ones I had still been ‘dealing with’ after years of adulting were the emotional outbursts, impulse control, and just general anxiety spinning my brain’s wheels at all hours of the day.

      2. SRB*

        Perhaps slightly off-topic, but out of curiosity…How did you come to realize it was ADD vs. “just how you were”?

        I’ve suspected for awhile that I might have some degree of ADD. Your description of yourself sounds eerily like myself (racing brain keeping me awake, multitasking as a compulsive habit, high anxiety, getting ahead of people in conversations). But I’ve always been like that. My mother is like this. Her father is like this. So I just always thought it was “how I am”. And on top of that, it might seem on face that I have “learned to cope” because I graduated from a good university, have a job that I’m doing pretty well at… (as have my mom/grandfather, the business owner and surgeon, respectively)

        But on the other hand, the anxiety. And the periods of my life like right now where I can’t for the life of me sit down for more than 15 minutes at a time to get any work done without wandering off to AAM or email or news or bank account. If a program takes even 10 seconds to load, I *have* to fill that with something. Even holding it together long enough to have a coherent phone conversation without being distracted is getting tough. I’ve so far resisted because “I’m coping just fine!” but…maybe I’m not. >_<

        1. TL -*

          If it’s significantly impacted your ability to enjoy your life, I think you should see someone! That doesn’t sound pleasant.

          I know for my roommate, she made an appointment with a counselor-type person and they talked about her symptoms and her inability to manage them in a productive way (which it sounds like you have) and she got a testing referral really quickly.

          1. SRB*

            Thanks for your response! Perhaps I will… The degree to which I’m like this can vary greatly, but I’m stuck in about an 8 month especially-bad rut of dis-focus right now. I guess, as MH said above me, I’m worried about getting the ‘they said since I’d “gotten through college I was fine”’ line, especially because I have at least 2 friends that went to college with me that HAVE ADD hearing the exact same thing. But I shouldn’t let that discourage me from at least asking about it, especially because it’s really starting to get in the way of life. Especially work… I say, as I respond to this post while…. at work… because I couldn’t handle waiting idly for 90 seconds while my query ran… >_>

            1. AnonAcademic*

              I know plenty of people with ADHD who ended up in doctoral programs before burning out on the lack of structure. I suspect at least one coworker of mine got their PhD by pulling a long series of hyperfocused all nighters. Especially if you’re smarter than average (or female, anecdotally) the ADHD symptoms won’t necessarily be a hard limiter at an obvious point like high school or college. Some might excel or at least get by at work but their finances are a mess or they can’t maintain relationships because they are too flaky.

        2. my two cents*

          I had originally talked to a therapist about 6-7 years prior due to crushing anxiety while at work. A few anecdotes about my upbringing, and she had diagnosed me as having ptsd-related anxiety and gave me some seriously helpful ‘tools’ to use in my day-to-day.

          After adopting a regular workout routine, developing reasonable work habits, and shedding some of the more-toxic people still floating around my life in my late-20’s, I still didn’t feel quite ‘right’. That’s when I made the appointment with the Psychiatrist and it’s been night and freaking day with my Straterra. It’s such a crazy feeling to actually be Resolved about various things, and no longer get the panicked ‘too many pop-up windows’ shut-down.

          1. my two cents*

            You’ll of course pick up the same behaviors/coping mechs as your family, but I really think it’s the stuff I do on my own while living alone that speak volumes to my ADD diagnosis…such as putting random tasks off until the last make-or-break moment.

            I had gotten my anxiety and scattered-ness down to a manageable level over the years, but it’s as though my meds just drop the trip threshold down another 40% so I now rarely go into a spin cycle. I still have some moments when pressed hard, but it’s not anything like it had been previously.

    6. AK*

      I am an adult with ADHD, I was diagnosed at 15 but didn’t start any form of medication until I was almost thirty. About a year after graduating from HS, I was able to get a full time job that I was able to really do well at even with ADHD – it was fast paced and involved lots of short term deadlines, but it was also shift work with long hours and a lot of physical work. After several years of working, I realized I wanted to continue my education and I enrolled in College, and that is when my ADHD really started to get to me. However, by this point, improved medications were available and after discussing things with my doctor and a counselor, I chose to go on medication (Strattera, in case you’re curious) and holy cow, the difference has been amazing. I was able to graduate college with honors even while working full time (or mostly full time) and start working in my chosen career.
      Now, though, there’s a downside. I have years of bad habits to overcome and the meds help (a lot) but I still need to do a lot of work to keep myself organized and motivated. It’s a struggle. I suffer from anxiety as well and so I have to be very careful about the environments I work in – “fit” is really, really important. I need the freedom to be able to do what works for me even if that doesn’t necessarily follow the standard way of doing things. Micromanaging makes me so anxious that I can’t function. I have lost jobs because of it – one where my anxiety prevented me from asking for the training I needed, and another where the company’s rigid work environment and expectations just did not work for me – I was so anxious over every little thing, I was having chest pains for months. However, at my current job, I’m granted a lot of independence and flexibility (it helps that my current employer also is an organization that includes advocating for disabled people in it’s mission) and I’ve been able to do much, much better. My reviews have all been very positive and my co-workers are awesome, and my boss is incredibly understanding.
      I think I probably picked one of the worst careers for someone with ADHD (a big part of what I do is keeping other people organized and on task by staying organized myself) which probably explains some of my struggles, but I love what I do and it’s entirely worth it to me. I continue to work with my doctor and a counselor, and we’ve done some med tweaking and other things over the years. For me, the medication has been a big help, but at the same time it doesn’t fix everything. Learning what does and does not work for me in an employment environment has been a long process and I’m still working on it – it’s something I will probably always be working on. The best advice I can offer is to understand how ADHD works and how it affects you as an individual so you can figure out what your needs are, what accommodations you may need to request from an employer (if any) and what will help you do your best, and that answer is different for each person.

    7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Well, I’ve not gone the ADHD meds route, but I had comorbid depression and I found that treating that actually had a pretty significant effect on my ability to manage the attention deficit.

      A lot of people recommend Pomodoro, but I found that didn’t do so much for me; I’m better when I’m dealing with a measured workload rather than a measured time load. Achieve X items in an hour, then take a breather till the hour mark. Achieve X more items in the next hour, rinse and repeat.

      I fidget in training, and doodle. That is enough to work out the ADHD issues for me, and let me stay generally attentive — I do need to keep an eye on whether I’m disrupting my other trainees, but intricate doodles actually do an awful lot to improve my overall retention.

      Caffeine is also a great alternative to meds! At least for me. My favorite fallback for a bad attention day is a can of Monster.

    8. LuvThePets*

      I agree that therapy plus meds is the gold standard, but also agree that meds have changed enough that working with a good doctor, there are many med options that include both stimulants and non-stimulants, he should feel way more comfortable about the med options of today. He also will have self-advocacy, meaning he will be able to articulate how meds are making him feel, and be able to recommend what’s working and not.

      Multiple people in my family have ADHD, some medicated and some not, some diagnosed professionally and some not. I take a non-stimulant, my daughter takes a stimulant. She’s had two meds that have worked great for her with (at different times, not together) with virtually no side effects. She had one that made her irritable and agitated. We took her off of it quickly. I have tried one, and had very few side effects, and with moderate improvement of symptoms. What many people do not realize is that ADHD affects many aspects, including relationships, driving safety, concentration, and more. There are many great suggestions here in this thread. I am adding a couple of great links for ADD information and support.

      Personally, I have been pretty successful in my work by finding jobs that feed into my strengths and interests. However, in my personal life I struggle with organization so my house and care are a mess (NOT my strengths). When this is the case you have to figure out a work-around. Good luck!

      http://www.additudemag.com/
      http://connect.additudemag.com/groups/

    9. zora*

      I had a lot more time to learn these things when I was younger and in school, so I’m sure it will be harder for him as an adult currently trying to get and keep jobs. But I learned to compensate for my ADD by over-structuring myself and learning organizational tools and tricks. But it might be something he needs to do in combination with therapy, because he might need another person to help guide him. First I had to figure out where my failure points were, what I often struggled with, and then I had to come up with a system to compensate for that failure point. Then same steps with failure point #2. It wasn’t easy, but it has made me a better and happier person, not just at work, but dealing with my own life stuff as well.

      There are great resources out there now, but the one I recommend starting with is a book called “ADD-Friendly ways to organize your life” by Judith Kolberg. It has a lot about creating visual and graphic-based organizational systems, which are easier for ADD people to remember and keep track of.

      Also general reading about ADD/ADHD could be helpful, because it could help him learn about how his brain works differently in different areas (by comparing himself to different descriptions in books) and that self-knowledge goes a long way to figuring out what areas I need to over-compensate, and what areas I actually do really well at compared to non-ADD people.

      But my sympathies to him, a lot of this world is not set up for ADD people, so it can be really hard and frustrating trying to figure out how to make our brains do what we want them to. Send him my best, and tell him he’s not alone, and he can get there!

    10. Simms*

      I have ADHD and am turning 30 this year and get by reasonably well. I did have therapy about ten years ago and don’t take medication. My biggest thing though is leaving work at work. I have so many hobbies I do in my free time as well as keep a constant stream of things to play in the background. I find if I keep myself stimulated at home, I have more focus for work since I am not thinking about what I might have done wrong or what to do better etc. Of course sometimes that find me watching a documentary on Netflix while being in a live stream chat, playing a video game and browsing reddit all at the same time.

    11. BRR*

      I’ve lost two jobs due to my ADD. Honestly meds. Therapy has been helpful in other ways but for job performance it’s been meds.

    12. Anon a Bonbon*

      Thank you to everyone who left stories. My “friend” is actually my husband who said it’s OK to mention that. :) I’ve been dropping by all day to check the comments, and we have been reading them together and taking all your thoughtful suggestions to heart. It’s great knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel.

      1. Rosalind*

        I wrote this already but it disappeared, forgive me if it posts twice.

        My friend has ADHD. He was diagnosed and medicated as a child. He went off medication when he was in high school. Back on now with therapy and so much better.

        Find (google) doctors that specialize in adult ADHD. Psychologist to figure out what’s going on, there are different aspects to it. Then a referral to a psychiatrist to prescribe and monitor meds.

        Meanwhile, find work in areas that he finds interesting/dynamic/keeps him engaged. Better sleep patterns, less stress, more exercise, especially walking, hiking biking.

        My friend happy he’s back on medication. His quality of life has improved. The new meds don’t make him into a zombie. They barely effect his personality. I can tell the difference because he doesn’t repeat things, it’s easier to get him to change focus, better time management, not as anxious, better able to let go of anxious thoughts.

        He wished he had done it sooner. Felt his life would have been easier, would have done better in school, less anxious, general happiness. He was amazed how much easier it was to edit his resume and cover letter because he could focus on what he had written!

        Without the meds: He did ok in college, extremely well in his masters courses and is very good at his job (developer). His intelligence and coping skills carried him through it. His love for his work and ability to focus his studies in his masters courses made him awesome.

        But then his job changed. He got a promotion to something he thought he wanted. He hated it. Too much time spent waiting on other people and not enough time doing stuff. Stress, lack of sleep, not enough/interesting work overwhelmed his coping skills. With meds, he’s able to power through.

  19. Kaori*

    Hey AAM friends! I read every day but don’t post much. Just wanted to drop in and say I just had an interview this morning and – thanks to the advice from this site and everyone involved – I think I nailed it! Please send good vibes my way if you think about it!

    2. Nonprofit to Govt.*

      Kaori:

      Congrats on the interview!

      As requested, I send you plenty of good vibes.

      Have a great weekend, and try not to think about the interview too much.

    4. Kaori*

      Thanks everyone! I’m putting it behind me for now and just continuing on, so I’m trying not to worry :)

  20. Pup Seal*

    I’ve been job searching for a while and been looking for jobs in my area. However, my boyfriend lives in a different city that’s an hour long drive away, and I’ve been debating if I should move closer to him and find a job there. I’ve heard that employers tend to stray away from candidates that aren’t local. Besides an outstanding resume and cover letter, is there a way to convince potential employers to give you the same consideration as a local candidate?

    1. Murphy*

      An hour isn’t terribly far away, so I wouldn’t worry about it. I know people who commute further than that.

      1. Emi.*

        Second this, especially if they employer is in a big city or one where housing prices drop off sharply with distance.

        1. Pup Seal*

          I live in a Midwest state, so both areas are “big” cities, though the city I live in is bigger and housing is so much more expensive (college town).

          1. Golden Lioness*

            It’s very common. It’s not dishonest to have a different physical and mailing address.

            Anyway, if you are not comfortable with using someone else’s address, P.O Boxes are also an option.

        3. Jesmlet*

          Eventually you’re going to have to give them your actual address if you get the job and I’d be a little weirded out if I noticed someone did this.

          1. KiteFlier*

            People move all the time. I can’t imagine a different address being a big deal to a hiring manager, especially since they don’t usually see new hire data.

          2. Lily in NYC*

            It is so common. And for all anyone knows OP might stay with her partner at that address while she looks for a place of her own. There are plenty of reasons a resume address doesn’t match the address given to HR. Maybe it’s different at smaller companies, but where I work no one would ever notice the change in address because it’s the HR assistants who enter the onboarding information and they’ve never even seen the new hire’s cover letter or resume.

            1. Jesmlet*

              The way our application and internal systems are set, it imports information that can’t be updated later by the applicant so if we hire them, I would have to manually go in and change the address. We hire geographically so location would matter to us.

              It’s not impossible but we’re very niche and particular in the way we run things

        4. k*

          I think it’s common enough for someone to have a temporary address while job hunting in a new city (staying with friends, short term sublet, etc), and then switching to a permanent address once they’ve secured the job and know for sure that the move is happening.

    3. Karanda Baywood*

      I never put my street address on my resume, just my phone number and email. You can certainly end up getting interviews without it.

      1. Wirving*

        Yup. I only put my address if it’s pertinent to getting the job (ie: meeting a “must live in city or move to city within X number of days” requirement).

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Can you use your boyfriend’s address on your resume/cover letter? And I don’t think an hour commute is what people mean when they talk about candidates not being local. It can be more difficult to be considered if you live in a different state, but an hour away shouldn’t raise anyone’s eyebrows. For example, tons of people live in Baltimore and work in DC. Or live in Providence, RI and work in Boston. You can also mention in a cover letter that you are planning to move closer to the office location in the near future.

  21. Nonprofit to Govt.*

    Interview with municipality

    I’m so grateful for this Friday’s Open Thread. I have just returned from a 45-minute interview with the mayor, economic development director and HR manager of a small municipality for a communications position.

    As with all government positions, the hiring managers (mayor and director) took turns asking me a list of questions that had no direct ties to my experience. Among them were how do you work with diverse communities, how do you handle failure, what would your priorities be for the firs 180 days in this role, and tell us one thing about yourself we haven’t asked.

    The interview went well, and I was able to incorporate much of the research I did for it into my answers. However, at points I believe I provided too much information in my answers.

    I asked the following questions (Thanks, Alison) at the end of the interview: What are the priorities of this position, what are the challenges, and what is a typical day/week like?

    Can anyone share their own experiences interviewing for a government position? Also, do you ever feel you’ve over-explained yourself, which I believe happened to me this morning?

    Thanks so much!

    1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I wouldn’t worry too much about “too much” information. I tend to be an over-explainer myself, something I am working on. Maybe because of that, I’ve never looked down on fellow over-explainers … but also, I’ve had pretty good success interviewing and getting positions.

      Government hiring processes can take FOREVER, so don’t be surprised if the timetable gets delayed. (Or, sometimes, the turnaround time is shockingly fast, because they have an itty bitty window and need someone on board OMGRIGHTNOWORELSE – I’ve seen that, too.)

      1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

        Manic Pixie HR Girl:

        First, I love your name! Thanks for sharing your insight about the government hiring process. I’m incredibly appreciative of the comment about over-explaining not being a total dealbreaker.

        For this particular position, I know that they are trying to make an offer and get someone in place by the end of next week. The municipality has three large projects that need to be in completed in March, so time is very much of the essence. The role is a one-person department, so there’s a lot of neglected work that will quickly become the new hire’s life.

        1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

          Thanks!

          Fair warning: The hiring manager’s goals are not always what actually happens! I had that for a role I interviewed for (and received) a few years ago … there was a bureaucratic holdup that no one anticipated which resulted in me getting an offer about 3 weeks after the rest of the team. Definitely send a thank you note and stay in touch. If there is some sort of holdup but you are the candidate, they’ll find a way to let you know that. ;)

          Good luck! It sounds like an interesting position.

      2. Another Lawyer*

        Re: Government hiring processes can take FOREVER

        +1. It took me over 5 months for an initial entry into gov’t and then 8 months for an internal move

        1. H.C.*

          Ha, same here – 9 months from application to first day (though 2 months were for negotiations; which took multiple approvals even though my manager OK’d it within a week.)

        2. Sparkly Librarian*

          About a year and a half (over a year from application to offer) for my first city government job. There was a long time when there were no open positions on the list I was on, and then my 2nd-interview-through-offer stage was about a month.

      3. Teapot librarian*

        I’m actually hiring right now for a government position, and I can tell you that despite my intentions, the process is going a lot slower than I’m sure our applicants would like. I have other things going on, my boss has other things going on, etc, etc, and that’s without adding in the slow turning wheels of HR. So year, don’t be discouraged if the hiring process seems to stall!

    2. H.C.*

      I recently went from nonprofit to Govt & have even started interview candidates for my role in sister agencies. I personally don’t mind over-explanation, but I do mind when people are being deflective and just running off the clock without actually answering the question (even after I steer the conversation back to what I originally asked.)

      My own experience interviewing for my position (communications officer) was fairly easy, since I held a similar role in my OldJob and a lot of the skills were readily transferable.

      Good luck!

      1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

        H.C.:

        Good point about deflection, which was not my goal.

        I have changed careers and held several grant-funded and contract positions, so pull examples of communication strategies from many places.

        For this morning’s interview, I tried to pull my parallels from my two most recent positions, including a one-person communications department role I held for a large nonprofit and a contract position managing people statewide.

        One of the hiring managers remarked to me she would like to know more about my previous positions, so I incorporated information about outreach efforts from two, three and seven years ago. It lengthened my answers, but we still completed most of their questions in roughly 20 minutes.

        Slightly off topic, but I was slightly surprised that the hiring manager wanted references for older jobs with fewer responsibilities. Is that unusual?

        1. H.C.*

          Depends how old (my own references spanned from 1-6 years ago), but it’s possible they want to establish that you have track record of competence & a firm grasp of the fundamentals – instead of someone who constantly got promoted for “managing up” well.

          1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

            H.C.:

            Thanks for answering my question and sharing a theory as to why she might have inquired about jobs from several years ago.

    3. Gene*

      I’ve been through a dozen or so, and have been on the other side of the table. Overexplaining can be a problem when it eats up time. We typically have multiple interviews scheduled and if you talk too long, we won’t get through all the questions. But it doesn’t sound like that was a problem here.

      Yes, I know, interview panels like this suck, but that’s The Way Things Are Done in most Civil Service positions. Good luck!

      1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

        Gene:

        Thanks for sharing your perspective from the other side of the table.

        I actually don’t mind the panel interviews so much as the general questions that fail to contextualize how it relates to the position or my resume specifically. After interviewing with three government agencies (two municipalities and one county agency), I believe that HR and the hiring managers are incredibly afraid of any perceived bias toward any candidate, so they keep the questions bland and nonspecific.

        Any thoughts?

        1. Gene*

          Much of the way we do things is because of that. (See: patronage politics in places like Chicago) And a lot of it is in place in the Civil Service rules and sometimes actual law. You typically won’t get the “real” interview questions until you get to the actual hiring interview. The way it works here is:
          1. application.
          2. either a supplemental questionnaire or a civil service test.
          3. the top X from those get panel interviews – X depends mainly on the number who pass 2; if it’s only a few, all of them, if it’s two hundred the top dozen or so.
          4. those who pass 3 are ranked and the Civil Service Commission approves the ranked list.
          5. the hiring manager gets to in-person interview the top 3 or 4 from the approved list. This is the first step that doesn’t have a “script” that has to be stuck to.
          6. if the hiring manager doesn’t like any of the people she interviewed, she had better have Damned Good Reasons.
          7. the hiring manager ranks those she interviewed and HR makes an employment offer to the first on that list. There are essentially no negotiations, occasionally someone will start at a step above the bottom step for that position, but I’ve only seen that twice in my 35 years.

        2. Observer*

          On the other hand, the questions they asked DO related to the needs of the job, so it could be worse. And the “tell us something we haven’t asked” does give you a chance to provide that context. And, really, it’s not their job to relate the job to your resume – it’s your job to relate your resume to the job and the issues they are concerned about.

          1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

            Observer:

            Interesting point, but the questions they asked didn’t directly relate to the position.

            The three interviewers asked general questions that could apply to any position within any organization. There were no questions about writing press releases, addressing the media, volunteer recruitment/engagement, researching upcoming events, dealing with public health/police emergencies, designing fliers and/or pamphlets for events, among other communication-specific tasks. This troubles me, especially given how quickly they want to hire and within executing a writing or design exercise to evaluate skills.

            You and I also disagree about the responsibilities of each party during the course of an interview. I respond to the advertisement, apply for the position with an accurate and current resume, receive invitation to interview, spend hours preparing via research, practice interviewing and ensuring I have a portfolio, pen and pad and am dressed professionally in a skirt suit.

            They’re obligations include providing me with correct information on the time, date and location of the interview as well as providing some indication as to why they wanted to speak with me. My experiences are quite varied because of grant-funded and contractual work, so I can speak to a variety of communication tactics, but I need some general direction. Otherwise, I can spend the bulk of the interview highlighting irrelevant accomplishments.

            Interviews are very much a two-way street that requires both sides to have clear expectations and be prepared to discuss them in a friendly and engaging manner. The full burden cannot fall solely on the job applicant.

            1. Observer*

              Just because the questions they asked could be relevant to most of the positions the municipality hires for doesn’t mean that they are not directly relevant to the position at hand. I agree that they could ask more questions that are more specific to the position, but what they asked are clearly baseline issues for that position – as well as for almost any position that is either public facing or touching public facing position in most government agencies.

              The agency gave you the correct information as to when and where the interview is. It would have been nice to know why they specifically chose to talk to you, rather than not, and I even think it would have been a good idea. But, I don’t see why it is an OBLIGATION.

              Interviews should be a two way street, but that doesn’t mean that they need to adapt their questions to your resume. It DOES mean that they should treat every candidate with respect, and be willing to answer any and all reasonable questions you have, just as you should be willing and able to answer any reasonable, job related questions they have.

              1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

                Observor:

                Somehow I get the impression you’re spoiling for a fight.

                Just to clarify, I want to explain that I had to follow up twice about the time, date and location of the interview because the HR admin who contacted me originally failed to follow up. I both called and emailed her for the information, which she did eventually send, without an apology or an explanation.

                With regard to what I interpret as each side’s obligations in an interview. I believe that treating an applicant with respect includes reviewing the resume and thinking ahead as to how the applicant’s experiences and skill set would be an asset to your team and the municipality’s goals. If an applicant leaves the interview feeling as though s/he did more prep work as was head and shoulders above the interviewers with regards to professionalism and polish, I believe that may indicate a mismatch of culture.

                I do not pretend to speak for anyone else’s experiences; however, I trust my own judgment and must advocate for my own well-being and career advancement.

                Thanks for taking time to share your opinion. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

    4. Wirving*

      Hi soon-to-be fellow civil servant (sending you all the positive juju)!

      With the caveat that my primary field is research and analysis, I don’t have a boilerplate this-is-what-my-government-interviews-looked-like experience, because each office I interviewed with was very different. Some interviews, like for the position I am in now, were great from the beginning, and felt more like conversations than for-stakes interviews. Others felt like I was pulling teeth because my interviewers were, for lack of a better term, terrible. It really runs the gamut.

      As Manic Pixie HR Girl says, though, it can be a long application process. I had eight interviews (individual and panel) over the course of two months for my current position. They wanted to send me an offer letter after my last interview in early summer, but because of bureaucracy and other hold-ups, I didn’t get it until the end of summer. They were quite responsive, though, and kept me in the loop throughout the whole process, which made it easier for me to turn down other offers I received in the interim. And that’s a timeline without a hiring freeze – I made it in just before my city implemented one.

      Re: over-explaining, I used to worry about that, too, but I don’t so much any more. In my experience (on both sides of the table) it’s not so much about how many words it takes to get you there, but rather how many tangents you take along the way. As long as what you said was relevant to your main point, I don’t think they’ll hold it against you. Sidenote: this is the obligatory brevity is preferred because being concise is important in policy yadda yadda yadda, but in my experience brevity is easier to teach than discretion.

  22. Smithy*

    I’m in the process of interviewing for a new job with an organization that I suspect may be closer to business dress than the business casual/very casual work environments I’ve been in my whole professional life (~10 years).

    My question is – are there any readers, particularly women, who’ve made the switch from business casual to business? What kind of impact did that have on you? I know that business dress vs business casual for women can be a little more murky – but I’m curious about whether that makes a considerable difference in your work quality of life. After updating your closet, does it become something you don’t notice or an issue you remain aware of?

    Having to switch to business wear wouldn’t be my ideal – but I’m curious how big a difference it actually provides to different people’s work life experience.

    1. Rincat*

      This is interesting! I have some experience with this, at my first job out of college, it was anything goes dress code – I could literally wear shorts and flippies as long as I didn’t have a client meeting, which happened maybe once a year (very casual part time job at a private archive). I then got a job at a conservative private university who was basically business formal. I was 23 at the time. To me, it was kind of exciting at first to get to buy dressier things like slacks and blouses, and it was a full time position so I was earning a lot more and able to go shopping. So at first I enjoyed the new clothes and feeling more like an “adult.” But over time I started to get annoyed with the formality of the clothes and having two wardrobes, and especially having uncomfortable shoes. My feet certainly were hurting since I wore flats and low heels with no support – we couldn’t wear sneakers or anything like that. Also more formal business clothing doesn’t really lend itself to bodily changes…hardly any stretch or things like that, so if your weight and body shape change a lot (which is quite typical of your 20s!), then you have to spend MORE money on work clothes (especially pants). So that started to really bother me. I can’t really say that in and of itself affected my work life because by that time, I was looking to quit (horrible boss), but it sure didn’t help. I didn’t have that excitement any more about looking professional and put together, and I was getting annoyed at the cost of maintaining a casual and a business wardrobe.

      Now I work in a casual/business casual environment (we can wear jeans but still need to look put together), I’m 33, and I’ve really found my style and what works for me, so I no longer have two separate wardrobes. Also I’ve found some amazing “dress sneakers” that look fantastic with everything and are super comfortable. :)

        1. NaoNao*

          Hi, I’m not the poster here, but I think I know what xie means by “dress sneakers”. Usually they’re leather, they look like oxfords or bowling shoes, they have minimal contrast or detailing, and they have a discreet rubber sole. They fit close to the foot and are sleek and low-profile.
          If you look up “Steve Madden Raant”, “Halogen Emily Loafer”, “Shelly’s London Platform Oxford” or “Cole Haan Zero Grand” brands you’ll get an idea of what the OP meant :)

          1. Rincat*

            Yes, very much like that! Mine are from a brand called Unnown Footwear. I first got the Veronica loafers in black leather, and I LOVE them. I wore them to a conference in Vegas and they were magical. I’ve since gotten a couple other pairs and they always look very polished and fashion forward, but they have a thick, cushy sole which is great for my high arches.

            I will say the loafers and the chukka boot took some breaking in – they only do whole sizes, so I ordered the 7 though I typically wear 7.5, as the customer services said they run large. After wearing them every day for a couple weeks, the leather definitely does stretch and they fit perfectly. I also got the Sonia sneaker and that is just larger anyway, so no break-in there. I definitely recommend them! I wear them with trousers, skirts, dresses, everything.

    2. kbeers0su*

      I just made a work wardrobe transition this summer. I went from casual (jeans) to business casual. So I had to buy essentially a whole new wardrobe. I focused on getting mix and match pieces to limit how much I actually had to buy, and I just went out in one trip to an outlet mall and got the bulk of my pieces there. I also kept my wardrobe to six colors- three colors (red, green, blue) and three neutrals (white, black, gray)- which helped with the mix and match idea.

      It was hard at first, because it takes a lot more time/energy/effort to get ready for work. And at first I was really conscious about what I was wearing daily because I was worried about fitting in. But now, six months in, it’s a routine. And I don’t really think about it. It does make a more distinct divide in my closet between my work and non-work clothes. So, funny enough, it actually helps me compartmentalize more because I look different when I’m in work mode vs. home mode. And I like that part a lot!

      1. Rincat*

        Limiting your color palette helps a LOT. I started doing that a year or so ago – I basically just have black, white, gray, navy, and some olive. It makes getting ready so much easier.

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          100% this. My boyfriend thinks my outfits are boring, but I’m not dressing to impress anyone. My attire is primarily neutrals and it makes getting dressed in the mornings a cinch!

          1. AnonAnalyst*

            My office makes fun of me for this because most of my clothes are black, charcoal grey, or navy. Whatever – everything in my closet matches just about everything else. Winning!

        3. Susan C*

          Oh god yes. I worked so hard at figuring out how to tastefully wear colour during my stint in grad school, I have recently come to the conclusion enough is enough, I can let my inner teenage goth off the leash and start buying black again. At least if only one piece per outfit has color, pre-coffee!me won’t try to mix olive and navy because she couldn’t be arsed to turn on the light properly.

          On second thought, maybe don’t take fashion advice from me.

          1. Rincat*

            I actually think olive and navy can be a nice pairing. :) I felt the same way, I decided to just give into my urge to wear black all the time and now people think I’m fashionable.

            1. Artemesia*

              There is an elderly couple in my old town where I did my career, positively ancient who are so completely stylish. They both wear basic black — and a black turtle (she may have just a black sweater — under black suits. She has clunky gold jewelry, he just has the black cashmere jacket and turtle, but stylish glasses. They always look completely fabulous and I’ll bet they have a closet literally with just a row of black jackets and pants/skirts. For black tie events, she might have something with a little color but always understated and lovely. They were my ideals — to be able to dress without a thought but always look dazzlingly stylish and cool well into one’s 80s. He is an important architect and as long as I was in the same circles (over 20 years at least) they always wore that basic outfit to evening social events (and for all I know, for work as well.)

        4. Red Reader*

          I went into a meeting at one point and all eleven people in the room were dressed head to toe in black, grey and white. :)

      2. Becca*

        Yes! Keeping your color palette limited is great because you can mix and match without having to think about it! There’s a blog called The Vivienne Files that I’m mildly obsessed with (I may have mentioned them in last week’s open thread too…) that does a lot with creative wardrobes with limited colors. They’re really gorgeous; my dream is to have something that looks that put-together!!

    3. Lincoln*

      Business dress is very EASY! Don’t be intimidated at all and the more your dress that way the easier it becomes. I wish I still had to wear a suit everyday. There was no guess work at all in the morning. Costume jewelry and scarfs can add your own flair.

      1. Another Lawyer*

        I agree, I actually think it’s over all easier to dress business formal than business casual because the rules are clearer.

        I shop at consignment/thrift stores with some deep sale shopping and my outfits are basically all one of these (I buy the same things in a lot of colors so I have a uniform more or less and can get dressed in under a minute):

        Black light wool skirting suit from Banana/J. Crew+Crew neck lightweight Teddie J. Crew sweater + statement necklace + opaque tights
        Suiting dress + button down underneath + opaque tights + bangles and pearl earrings
        Suiting dress + opaque tights + cardigan + statement necklace

        In the summer it’s:
        suiting dress + cardigan (no hose is fine in my office)+ statement necklace
        colorful pencil skirt + cream silky blouse or dark crewneck ponte top with 1/2 sleeves + jewelry

        I hate pants.

        1. Anon13*

          I dress similarly in my business professional office, except we are required to wear blazers, not cardigans, and are also “strongly encouraged” to wear hose. I agree that it’s actually much easier to get dressed in the morning than it was when I worked in business casual offices.

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      They will probably give you a list of acceptable/not acceptable so wait to do shopping until you see the list. My company was purchased by a larger company and at the corporate office they are business professional dress, but they allowed us to remain (their version of) business casual but we had to make adjustments. Pants had to be long (no crop, ankle or capri) and we had to wear either dress socks or stockings, no backless shoes. Men had to wear slacks and collared shirts, no sweaters and no polo’s. Wear a nice suit or dress your first day, and I’m sure they will give you a handbook that lays it all out. It might be that slacks and a blouse or slacks and a button down shirt will be appropriate.

    5. fluxinsight*

      I’m currently working for a federal agency, but before that I worked for nonprofits and academia. So my wardrobe had to change from the very casual end of business casual to business formal. I think that I’m happier with a more formal environment because it’s easier to know what you’re supposed to wear (especially since I’m a woman and there’re limitless options/ways to make mistakes). It made my morning routine easier because everything mixes and matches and I don’t spend too much time wondering if something’s inappropriate. Also, it feels like wearing armor to me so that I’m ready to face any potential challenges that may arise during my time at work.

      I described some of the upsides to a more formal work wardrobe. However, the sticker shock to updating my closet was intense. And I feel that there’s a clear divide between my work clothes and my weekend wear.

    6. DevManager*

      I’ve gone back and forth several times between more casual (where some people wore shorts/flip flops) and more business dress (current job – no jeans except Fridays, all the men wear collared shirts and slacks).

      If you choose well and what you wear fits well, it doesn’t make a huge difference in your quality of life, IMO. For example, this week I have worn Tuesday: Sheath dress with boots, Wednesday: dress slacks, sleeveless peplum top with cardigan over it, flats, Thursday: dress slacks, sweater set (matching cardigan and shell), low heels, today: jeans w/ button down long sleeved top, dark colored slip ons.

      I agree with the other advice – limit your color palette. Also – unless your office is super stylish, you can get away with wearing the same things week in and week out i.e. Monday one week wear black dress A, and then Weds the following week, but with scarf b, and so on. If you’re concerned about potential weight fluctuations – well cut sheath or a-line dresses are your friend. I tend to wear a lot of dresses because I then only have 1 piece to worry about.

    7. N.J.*

      I don’t have any advice about the transition to business formal per se, but there are a few blogs that do a very good job discussing how to build a business wardrobe: corporette and Capitol Hill style come to mind.

      Specific links that might help:

      http://corporette.com/capsule-wardrobe-for-work/

      http://www.caphillstyle.com/capitol/2013/05/08/building-a-wardrobe-15-easy-pieces.html

      I also just started reading the directrice, so can’t completely vouch for it but the link below might help:

      http://thedirectrice.com/the-small-but-smart-wardrobe/

      All the links here focus on the capsule wardrobe idea, but that could be a good starting point for how to approach purchasing enough clothes to get you through this transition. All three bloggers work or have worked in formal business environments like law and politics, so I’m trusting their style sensibilities are formal enough.

      1. Susan C*

        Since you seem to have been around the blogosphere a fair bit, have you maybe ever come across someone/someplace offering business dress advice for women slanted a little more… butch, for lack of a better word?

        Because while I do appreciate the advantages of dresses (fewer pieces!) and skirts (no heel height specific hemming!), I’m just not about that. Don’t even start on jewellery.

        2. Doodle*

          I don’t know about blogs, but I honestly think that’s easier. Trousers, loafers, button down shirt (or tucked in non-button down shirt), blazer. That’s my go-to for business formal days, and it’s super easy to mix and match. I have black pants and grey pants (2 pairs of each), a couple of button downs, and a couple of blazers (2 black, 1 grey, 1 khaki).

    8. Internal Auditor*

      I switch depending on what I’m doing that day! Business dress can actually be easier day to day. It’s much harder to screw up a suit + blouse.

      Go shopping. Try on suits, etc from different stores. Every place fits differently. Your goal is to find a brand that fits without alteration, or only pants hem. Once you know brand and size, look online for used suits to save money.

      Even within business dress, there’s a variety. You’re going to want to take your cue from other women at the company. Pant suits, dresses + jacket, skirts

      Most of the time, suits need to be dry cleaned. I wear mine several times between cleanings. I change as soon as I get home as well to keep them clean.

    9. Leslie Knope*

      Work quality of life wise? Not necessarily. I’m really intense about making sure my clothes are still comfortable because let’s be honest–if I’m uncomfortable in my clothes I’m not very comfortable and not good at working. Does this mean wearing my work clothes is the same as a hoodie and yoga pants? Nope! Haha. I wish. My boss instituted a “Levi Day” on Fridays, and I FREQUENTLY mention that an “Athleisure” Friday would actually be the best ever haha. But call me a millenial. Because I can’t really control the work attire situation, I decided to champion it. I enjoy finding great deals from Ann Taylor (they frequently have huge sales–shop the clearance section, etc.). I really love my work purses / bags and use them all the time. I research the heck out of comfortable shoes for the office. So here’s the deal–if you can’t change it, own it. :)

      I would say the biggest factor is on the wallet.

      Here we go. For me personally, and I work in business/finance in a hybrid business professional/business casual environment, my style is pretty much exclusively from Ann Taylor.

      My day is a combo of a variety of pencil skirts (in soft fabrics but professional cuts) plus a flowy blouse and cardigan with flats (Tory Burch / Tieks / Kate Spade) on a more casual day. When I have to meet with clients it’s predominantly a suit (black because I’m boring) with a flowy shirt underneath with heels (wedges b/c I’m a baby and my toes hurt with super high heels haha).

      My BIGGEST recommendation is to get a few good pieces and slowly work them into your wardrobe if you do indeed move to the new environment/dress code. A huge overhaul is going to be a big hit to the wallet. You can dress up an outfit well with one or two good pieces. While often people say to watch the dress code of others, I’d just have to put my two cents in that most women at my office are pretty off base. I travel to my I’d find those you observe that are conscientious about other items and see what they do — they’re usually the ones that would notice this social norm too.

      Also, most Nordstrom’s offer personal stylists that you can schedule appointments with. You’re not obligated to buy anything–obviously they get commission off your purchases, etc. I’ve used one a few times and it’s been FANTASTIC to get a sense of what works on my body, etc. They are pieces I’ve used all the time. I’m not suggesting you have to buy all of your things from them, but maybe giving yourself a dollar limit and honing in on something might be great because you’ll get a sense for what works on your body. Then, you go deal hunting! and know exactly what shapes work for you!

  23. Contractor*

    Hey guys this is my first time being a contract employee on a 6 month contract. I was hired as a temporary contractor with no formal paperwork. My agency literally said show up starting this date until this date with no parking, dress code, or other info. l did not sign any sort of contract. I took this job after getting laid off from oil and gas and honestly, I’m just not sure it’s for me. I took it because I needed money coming in.

    I have another two months left (I’ve been interviewing at other places to see what’s out there) and was wondering what would be a good timeline to give notice? A month out from when the contract is up? Two weeks like a normal job? And to be clear, it is heavily leaning towards they’d like me to be perm but I haven’t said anything quite yet- and again, nothing is guaranteed at this point. Also would I let my agency or my manager know first?

    Also, do you think it will hurt my resume to have a contract job that I didn’t go perm at?

    Would it be an absolute no-no to leave the contract a month or so early? Please don’t pile on if it is as I honestly don’t know this is my first time on a contract.

    Thanks for your advice everyone it is much appreciated!

    1. Red Reader*

      Two weeks like a normal job is fine, and the expectation is that contract jobs are short-term and temporary. Not going perm will not even raise an eyebrow.

    2. Red Reader*

      My last contract job, I didn’t have anything formal in writing either, haha. I’d gotten the job via a cold call from a recruiter that I never met with in person. I researched as well as I could online, but I knocked on the door half afraid that I’d been scammed, nobody knew I was coming, there wasn’t really a job and I had sent all my personal information to someone who was selling my identity on the black market or something.

      (It was legit, that contract DID go perm, and now I’m in management for the same organization. :) )

    2. Addison*

      I include my home address but didn’t put the apartment number, just……. because I’m untrusting that way. As far as I’m aware it’s pretty common to do but you could probably get away with leaving it off (or maybe just putting city and state?) if you want to.

    3. Sunflower*

      I still include it because if you don’t, it could appear that you’re trying to hide something (like you aren’t local). I don’t necessarily think its the kiss of death but I don’t see an upside to keeping it off, only a downside

    4. Berry*

      I have email, phone, and then my Town, State and ZIP code but not street address. That was I still have location but no one needs to know what apartment I live in.

    6. Academia Escapee*

      I include city and state, but not street address. That way employers can see that I’m local without pinpointing my location.

    10. Prismatic Professional*

      I just put City, State and ZIP Code. The ZIP Code can give an idea of where I am if they are interested in figuring out commute distances or something. They do not need to have my actual address.

    11. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I include city/state/zip but not street address. My employer might well be concerned with generally how close I am, but I don’t think they need more than that, and it keeps me feeling more secure — I am estranged from some family members that I really do not want tracking me down.

    12. Ann Furthermore*

      Someone I used to work with told me that she was watching some job search videos by some guy….can’t remember his name. Anyway, he recommended omitting it, because at one point he’d watched an HR person skim through resumes and discarding quite a few of them. He asked why, and the HR person said, “Well, this person lives in [town that’s and hour away]. They’re not going to want to make that commute!”

      Anecdotal evidence, but I could see the logic behind leaving it off.

      1. Anon13*

        I see this logic, but it’s actually why I include mine. I live very near downtown in a city that gets a lot of snow – on at least one occasion, I know that the fact that I lived so close helped me get an interview. (I guess the previous employee had a lot of trouble making it to work when there was bad snow. It was through no fault of her own, but, when she quit, they wanted to minimize the chances of going through the same thing again.)

      2. Turkletina*

        I’m going to post this question as a top-level comment in a minute here, but I got a version of this at an interview this morning:

        Me: Do you have any concerns about my background that I could address?
        Interviewer: Honestly, looking at [your resume], I’d be concerned about you driving all the way here from [town] every day!

        I’m not particularly concerned; it’s a 40-minute trip, which is approximately 5 minutes longer than my last commute.

    13. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I have for my last two job searches, but I probably won’t for the next one (1-2 years from now, probably), provided we stay in this area (which is increasingly likely). The next job search will probably be exclusively in the same city where I currently work, so I feel like that should be good enough.

    14. New Window*

      I reluctantly put city and state, but I leave off street address and zip code. It may be overcaution, but street addresses and zip codes have been used to discriminate before, so I figure why not take that possibility out of the game.

    17. copy run start*

      City/state, phone and email. I will put it on the application if the employer has an actual app, but on my resume I feel that space can be of better use, safety/privacy concerns non-withstanding.

    18. OBdontgo*

      Email and phone number. I don’t give anyone my address or other identifying information via email/internet. The entire world (and especially my crazy stalker ex) don’t need to know where I live!

    19. MissGirl*

      Email and phone. I’m working with several recruiters and advisors and no one says to add address.

  25. Marie*

    Any tips for stopping yourself from freaking out?

    I have a major assignment due next week and I’m alternating between ‘it’s fine, I’ve got this’ and ‘OMG I have no idea what I’m talking about this is all rubbish I am so screwed.’

    1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

      Have a cup of tea. I have heard good things about dancing to Beyonce. Take five minutes to go and do ANYTHING ELSE. Write a todo list. With little accomplishments. (That was what got me through my dissertation.)

      1. kbeers0su*

        Ditto here. So at least I know someone else is in the same boat. Just don’t let imposter syndrome get the best of you. Also, I agree with some Beyonce :)

    2. Manders*

      I like to break huge projects down into digestible bits, even if they’re absurdly tiny. So instead of “climb the mountain,” my list starts with putting on hiking books, packing my water bottle, driving to the location, getting out of my car, reaching the trailhead, and so on.

      I also like having progress bars I print out and fill in with highlighters. There’s something about the physical act of filling in the bar that makes the small accomplishment feel real.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        Plus, if you derive satisfaction from having a huge list of crossed out tasks, this is such a boost! On really overwhelming days/projects, I will include breaks and little life tasks (“clean kitchen,” i.e. put coffee mug and cereal bowl in the dishwasher) just to have one more thing to triumphantly cross off!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Expanding on this: I like to figure out where the problem areas are that concern me the most. Using Manders’ list as an example: I might conclude that my biggest concerns were
        a) Checking my hiking boots for wear/fatigue. Do I need new boots?
        b)I am going to drive to the location. I have a weird noise in my car’s engine. I should get the car checked before I start out that day.
        c) I am concerned about bug bites while hiking so this means I must check how much bug spray I have left.

        Now, I might not get to a, b and c right away. I might do one of the questions a week as I work on other things. But I know where my top concerns are and that I need to address them before time gets by me. I target the areas of largest concern knowing that smaller concerns can be worked out as I go along.

  26. bassclefchick*

    Well, it happened. I just got fired. Again. For the 2nd time in 6 months. I was told I wasn’t progressing fast enough. I don’t know if it was a self fulfilling prophecy or not. I don’t know what I’m going to do now or how my work history will ever recover.

    In other news, the person who got me this job? She’s out with stress related medical issues and will be putting in her notice to quit next week.

    2. Nonprofit to Govt.*

      bassclefchick:

      My sympathies for the loss of your job.

      As someone who has struggled with bad fits and unclear goals, I have found that leaving off positions that last less than six months have proved a solid course of action. Remember, your resume is a marketing tool, not a comprehensive list of your full prior employment.

      Please consider leaving off one or both jobs from your resume and focus on volunteering, taking free or low-cost online classes, attending networking events hosted by professional associations. I have been in similar situations, particularly after going through a bait and switch with a large nonprofit and working at a struggling start-up. Neither position is on my resume, and I was able to quickly pursue other positions without much concern.

      Alison has some super helpful posts about losing jobs and dealing with feelings about it. If you are up to it, I recommend searching the archives for some of those.

      Be good to yourself and try not to let this ruin your weekend or tarnish your job-search outlook. There’ s a good job out there waiting for someone with your skill set to fill.

      1. bassclefchick*

        Thank you! No, I wasn’t planning on putting either job on my resume. I’ll keep the notes for dates and stuff for my own records. At least I saw this one coming. I honestly don’t think my boss ever really wanted me on the team anyway. I’m going to take the rest of today off and just chill out this weekend. I’ll start the job search next week.

    4. AshK434*

      OH NO!! I’m so sorry. I’ve been following your posts for a while now and I can relate. In 2014, I was fired twice within four months. Admittedly both jobs weren’t suited to my skill sets (and the manager from the second job just didn’t like me) but I recovered and my subsequent job was a great fit that I loved. Hang in there!!

      1. bassclefchick*

        It’s funny you say that because I’ve always felt my boss didn’t like me. She asked if I had anything to say and since HER boss was also in the room I flat out said that she never really made me feel welcome and that I got a vibe that she never wanted me there.

        I have to move on, that’s all I can do.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Good for you for speaking up. You will be able to always remember that you stood up for you. Yes, it matters.

  27. YouHaveBeenWarned*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for how to get over feeling super bummed out about upcoming performance reviews/bonus announcements?

    1. jdm*

      I’m pretty bummed about a situation at work, and the best way I’ve found to deal with it is to create some personal LFTs (looking forward tos) — lunch with a friend, going out of town for a wedding, getting a new book, going out to a good restaurant, etc. Having a LFT keeps my mind off the negative.

      1. YouHaveBeenWarned*

        This is some seriously outstanding advice. I tend to spiral around “my review is going to be horrible everyone hates my work maybe they’ll fire me” so distraction is probably a really good idea.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yep, that is outstanding advice. And it is something that is life long advice. Crap happens naturally, but sometimes we have to deliberately create the good times. And it’s easy to skip the fun stuff, too tired, too distraught, too scattered, etc. But when we skip the good stuff we send a message to ourselves about how we do (or don’t) value our own selves.
          Work related stuff is a part of life, but not all of life.

  28. Audiophile*

    So I finally saw my raise, it was in my most recent check. After taxes, it’s all of $25 a paycheck. If my original calculations were correct, it amounts to less than $.50.

    While I’m happy to see any raise, it really feels disappointing with all the time and effort I put into this job. Plus, it makes it hard to ask for more at a future employer because my salary is so low and I took a $5000 paycut when I took this job. It’s all incredibly frustrating.

    I’ve started reaching out to contacts in the corporate world, to see if I can make the leap.

    1. kbeers0su*

      I once got a .7% raise. It was the only raise I ever got. And I was making squat, so I think it was a few dollars a paycheck. I think getting nothing wouldn’t have crushed my morale the way that did.

    2. Oryx*

      I once had a job where everyone was super excited because they were finally get a “quarter raise.”

      They literally meant $0.25

    3. costume teapot*

      Ugh. I’m *in* the corporate world and I got this. A 1.5% raise. That’s not even a cost of living or inflation raise. I’m pretty irritated. Would have rather gotten nothing at all.

    4. Curriculum*

      I got 3% but the company increased the proportion of health insurance and 401k that we have to pay so my take home pay went down $50 per month.

    5. Frustrated Optimist*

      We got zero increase (neither COL nor merit) for 2016 or 2017. And our health insurance has gone up to the tune of $100 more/month as compared to 2015.

  29. Addison*

    Aggravating: When your annual wage increase was supposed to hit today’s paycheck but did not; however, your annual insurance/deduction increases sure the heck did!!! UGHHH.

    1. ThatGirl*

      My husband’s increased insurance deduction hit this month, but he did not get a raise, and my insurance went up a bit, but my wage increase doesn’t kick in until April – so yeah, I feel ya.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh is right! My company still owes me $500 for supplies I bought with my personal credit card back in October. We just got new expense software and our “crack accounting team” (more like crackhead accounting team) can’t get their shit together.

    3. Artemesia*

      It doesn’t get better; our increase in social security was lower than our increase in medicare charges. I was lucky that I had fabulous medical insurance when working complete paid by my employer although my family was extra, but my husband’s firm’s insurance was incredibly expensive — like 20K per family. The firm paid for it for employees but of course it came out of the partner’s pay and they were not fabulously well paid.

  30. Cora*

    I feel in a pickle here…

    I am set to move on Saturday February 4th and asked for the Friday/Monday off to take the stress off and allow time for prep/delays. I checked with my boss and coworker (the only others in company) and they said there was no conflicts….

    So that night I booked the movers for first thing Saturday morning and scheduled cable hookup for Friday afternoon that I must be present for all afternoon. That Friday morning must be spent cleaning my apartment. Monday is when we’re doing the walkthrough of our old apartment with the landlord.

    I get into work today and I’m told that if there is a snowstorm and my coworker can’t come in (she’s a 2 hour drive away) that I will need to come in those days and they can’t guarantee ANY days off for my move – which means cable/internet hookup could be delayed over a week plus my landlord will nail me with extra rent if the keys aren’t back Monday morning.

    I don’t know what to do… I can’t afford to work those days without major inconvenience to my personal life. They don’t seem to get that appointments have been made and I don’t know how to explain it.

    1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      “I’m sorry, but I made plans and appointments around these approved days off and at this point there will be personal and financial hardships if I have to cancel any of this last minute.”

      Is it possible to do the walkthrough on Sunday? My other thought is either first thing Monday or end of day Monday, then if there is a hardship to them you can be in Monday … but I would hold firm on Friday.

    2. Temperance*

      Do you have a partner/roommate? Can they pick up any of the slack here, or is it all on you?

      You need to talk to your boss about the extra costs you will incur related to the extra rent. I also think a lot of this is a time management issue; you can absolutely pack ahead of time and get a good jump on the cleaning. Cable/internet is annoying not to have, but not absolutely imperative, whereas extra rent is a big deal.

      1. Cora*

        That is the thing – I have no one to help me out, which is why I really needed these days off! I am already cleaning my entire apartment but since I have dogs, everything basically needs to be cleaned again on the Thursday/Friday.

        The only way to logistically get this done without the time off is to hire help to clean my apartment when I am out, but that is an unrealistic cost for me. The cable/internet company can only come Mon-Fri during my work hours and their policy is that I need to personally be there. Even if I didn’t do it the Friday I would need a guaranteed day off during the next week due to their big time windows plus my commute.

        The cable/internet is very important to me because on top of working full time I am also a part time student… losing internet for a week means that I can’t study for a week and will miss assignment deadlines since our small town has few places with wifi where you can work late into the night.

        Even worse about the cable/internet is that if I cancel the appointment that morning when I find out I have to go into work, I am on the hook for the moving fee plus a new moving fee for my next appointment!

        I’ve sent my boss an email since he didn’t have time to talk to me outlining how much money I’ll be out if I cannot be guaranteed these days off.

    3. Rachel*

      Do you have any local friends or family who are unemployed, retired, stay-at-home parents etc. (basically – people without a standard 9 to 5) you could ask for help?

      This is lousy of your company either way, and I’m pulling for you.

    4. LCL*

      Since you are dealing with only 2 people, and they have that much control, I would phrase it like this.

      I checked with you before I made any arrangements to find a clear time.
      I am moving that weekend. I booked the movers based on having those days free. If I cancel or postpone I will have to pay XXX extra money.
      I have made arrangements with the landlord to be gone by Feb 6. If I cancel or postpone I will have to pay XXX extra money.
      I can’t afford to come to work that weekend. That is why I checked ahead of time, to pick the optimum time for the company and for me.

      Don’t use the word inconveniences, they won’t care. They will understand money. Don’t talk about the cable hookup, that will be seen like asking for time off to go to a basketball game. Entertainment is cool and all but you are making this argument strictly about money.
      And for anyone who says Cora shouldn’t have to make these arguments, she isn’t being treated with respect-yup, I agree. If I told someone in my group they were expected to cancel their moving plans to come in and work they would laugh at me. But Cora is working in a small business and wants to keep her job, so those are my suggestions.

      2. Cora*

        I did end up sending an email to my boss (he was too busy to chat) outlining what it will cost me to not get these days off. I hope the prospect of me having to give my landlord an extra $800 plus the $60 moving fee that won’t be refunded by the cable/internet company for cancelling my appointment that morning. Plus if it turned out I had to delay the movers because I couldn’t have everything prepped in time that I word forfeit my $200 moving deposit!

        I hadn’t realized it but we’re talking about $1060 in added expenses when my gross pay for that day will only be about $150!!!

        I also put in the argument that delaying internet would hinder my online university classes (which benefit my employer) and would result in future expenses due to the inability to access my class materials.

        I appealed to the compassionate side of my coworker and hope that will work… I don’t think she realized how much stress it would cause me! I also think assumptions were made that I had friends/family/boyfriend to help me move/clean and didn’t have to do everything on my own. At the end of the day it comes down to my boss though…

        I think it is because they know I am staying in town that they think I should be able to just drop everything and come into work if my coworker took the day off at the last minute… we are literally talking about me getting a call at 8:30am telling me I need to be at work for 9:00am! They wouldn’t even think of this if I had told them I was going out of town.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      Tell them that you can’t do it unless they agree to pay any fees you incur. But still, this is BS. What if you were going to be out for surgery? They would have found a way to make it work without you. What would happen if you said, “I am 100% unavailable to work those days”?

      1. Cora*

        I know that would work… tallying it up I would have to spend $1060 in expenses to delay the move when my boss is only paying me $150 to work that day.

        I think this is only happening because they know I am going to be in town and physically able to work if they needed me. If I were out of town or physically incapable it would be entirely on my coworker for not having to come in – I even fear she wants the freedom to decide not to come in that day by having me essentially on-call.

        If neither of us come in that day it would just mean reduced office hours and reduced services for clients since my boss would be working alone – it has happened before when she was on vacation and I got the flu!

        1. Cora*

          But I should also mention that on that day when she was on vacation and I was sick that when she found out we had both been off one day, she said “If you had called me at home to let me know I would’ve come straight in to work!”

          So this may also have everything to do with what she is willing to do on her time off, she is the kind of person that works from home for free and stayed at work on the day her father died because she ‘had stuff to do’.

    6. Xarcady*

      I don’t like it when companies do this. Either you have the days off, or you don’t. (I’m assuming that you are taking scheduled paid time off here, and that the two days off weren’t a favor from your boss.)

      What if you had planned to go away during that time? Would they expect you to cancel travel plans and eat the cost of the plane tickets, etc., because it *might* snow and cause them a problem?

      Just because you aren’t leaving town on your vacation days does not mean you should be considered a back-up plan for bad weather. And if your co-worker’s home location causes a problem in the office, that is not your problem to fix. Either they figure out a way to let her work from home, or they hire someone on the condition that they will always come to work in bad weather.

      I would definitely try pushing back as Manic Pixie has suggested.

      1. Cora*

        It certainly is scheduled paid time off, my boss sat down to make sure I had enough accrued vacation to cover the days off before he even gave me the green light!

        I’m thinking they would expect me to do anything possible to cancel plans and come into work should she not be able to come in… in the past when she was on vacation and I was sick, she had made a comment when she came back that she would’ve come in if I had called her!

        We’re also talking about very last minute notice if I would need to go in… my workday starts at 9:00am and she would only know if she couldn’t make it at 8:30am!

        I know they are also looking at me as the ‘always in despite the weather’ person because I currently live only a couple minutes away from the office… so when they hired me they assumed I’d pretty much always be there but weren’t thinking I would need days off in the winter.

    7. Anono-me*

      Why can’t coworker get a hotel room if she is worried about getting to work due to the weather? What would she do if a blizzard hit Friday while she was at work? The cost of a hotel room is almost certainly much less then a lost security deposit. And staying in a hotel is also almost certainly much less hassle than moving house over a 2 day weekend.

      Boss and Coworker made statements that you relied upon and entered into contracts based upon. I think you have a very large amount of cause to push back. There are several good suggestions as to wording.

      An additional reason to push back on this is to avoid having it be the default. Cora is getting married/ having surgery/ getting the Nobel on Monday. But Coworker has a flat tire. Is Coworker going to grab a jack or a taxi or is Cora going to have to cancel her plans and go to work?

      Good luck with everything.

      1. Cora*

        If the employer had to look at the cost of paying for either the option of me delaying my move or her staying in a local hotel room would be this: Me= $1060.00 Her= $200.00

        But even with a delay in my moving date for this expense, there’d be the same issue on my delayed date where they’d say there could potentially be another snowstorm that would cost another $260 to reschedule the movers and cable/internet company again.

        I could easily see this setting a precedence for all future time off needs… we’re also talking about very last minute notice to cancel my plans as well. I’d only know at 8:30am that day if my coworker couldn’t come in to be at work for 9:00, so I couldn’t even plan around knowing she won’t be there in advance.

  31. oasl*

    I graduated a year ago with a degree in music, and have been working at an arts charity since then. I like my job and I really support the work the charity does (I volunteered with them before I worked there), but it’s not a full-time position and I’ve been working two other jobs on the side to get by. From what I can tell, I’ll need one to two more years of experience to be a contender for full-time positions in this field (at least in my area as there aren’t a lot of open positions), and I just don’t want it enough. I am too tired and stressed about finances to feel very passionate about the work we’re doing, and I was much happier contributing to this charity as a volunteer.

    Which brings me to my problem. I’m now searching for a full-time position elsewhere, and I…don’t really care about what I’d be doing. I know that I want to get out of customer-facing roles and that I want a job with work that doesn’t come home with me at the end of the day, and that’s it. I’ve been applying to entry-level office jobs because they seem to fit with what I can do and what I want from a work/life balance. I know employers want to hire people who are passionate about theidr work, and all the reasons why make perfect sense. At the same time, I know that I am competent and can find enjoyment in even very monotonous work. I feel like I get invested in the work I do as I do it, which doesn’t help me in the job search stage. For example, one of my current responsibilities is to collect personal data from customers that can be used to apply for funding. They aren’t required to give us this information, but I do have to ask. A lot of people are hesitant about this, and I’ve gotten very good at explaining what we need it for and how their information will be used, to the point where I have changed the minds of people who were initially very annoyed to be asked. I’m very proud of myself for how I handle these interactions, but it’s not work I specifically wanted to be doing or would have been excited to talk about if it had been in a listing.

    How do I stand out from all of the applications from other qualified people when I’m not following an important personal goal by applying? I do my best to find relevant angles to get myself excited based off of what type of employer it is, but I feel like the fact that I don’t have a relevant career plan* or an explanation for why this specific type of work makes me look like I haven’t really thought things through and am not invested enough to stick around.

    *The work I feel strongly about doing is music composition, and I do that on my own time. I don’t see it as a realistic thing to pursue full-time yet.

    1. Biff*

      I think you MIGHT be over-thinking this one. I don’t think most sane places to work expect you to be totally stoked to cold-call clients, radically enthused about filing or exceptionally invested in scheduling tetris. If you are applying for entry-level office jobs, those would really be examples of how you took on grunt work and owned it, and made things better. That’s a GREAT thing to have an example for.

      It’s also not unusual to take an entry level job so you can gain experience you need to move on. It’s called an entry level job for a reason. No one expects or frankly, even wants, you to change the company from the bottom up with your mad phone skills. Someone who is overly invested in an entry level job will honestly come across as kinda strange.

    2. Daisy Grrl*

      Fellow music grad here. I work in something completely unrelated to the arts or anything I studied in university. I agree with Biff, that you’re overthinking it a bit. Part of the problem with studying music/the arts is that it really embeds the idea that you MUST be passionate about your work. Most of the world really doesn’t work that way.

      Since you’re still early in your career, it makes sense that you haven’t settled on any one specific thing yet. In your current job, there are duties you enjoy and would presumably be happy doing in a number of different settings. Focus on those aspects, and remember that many employers will think it’s perfectly reasonable that you want to move toward full time work that is steady and reliable.

    3. EP*

      Fellow arts major here! (Fine Arts: Theatre) and just to forewarn you be prepared to defend your degree forever – I’m 10 years out of college and LAST YEAR I had to answer why I majored in Theatre. I think part of it is that people are nervous that you’re going to leave – the other part is how flaky you are (did you do it because it was “easy”– FYI theatre at a small Liberal Arts College is not easy!) Remember to spin the practical skills you learned while studying that (for theatre it was planning and people skills – jokingly I usually throw in that I can paint a mean wall…)

      I have found my best (read: longest lasting/most fulfilling) jobs have been with science people (currently vets, previously nurses and PhD/MDs working in disease research) they need someone to bring them back to earth and to show them how they are maybe not thinking things through (like-yea that’s a great building but MAYBE that work space design isn’t the most conducive for private conversations- or – yes for this 2 day meeting it does matter what you feed people and when…). When you bring those skills to the office you end up being even more valuable.

    4. Sunflower*

      Focus more on your skills and what you like to do in a job as opposed to where the job is or what it is. The majrity of employers are not doing work people are passionate about and they realize that. One thing I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older is I’m way way way more motivated by the work I do in a job as opposed to what my job is, who I work for, etc. Most people aren’t incredibly invested in what they do. I like what I do but I am not SO PASSIONATE about planning events for lawyers! I do really like mapping out the logistics of things and creating project plans though. So focus on what you bring to the table there and employers won’t bat an eye that you aren’t passionate about the creation of molds to make plastic products.

    5. oasl*

      Thank you all for answering this. I think I’ve been letting the stress of the job search get to me and feeling like everyone else applying for these positions probably has their life together much more than I do. When I narrowed my thinking down to what tasks I was actually good at and enjoyed like you all suggested, I started to feel a lot more confident.

  32. Biff*

    Can I get a pep talk? I’m unemployed and in my vast wisdom, I decided to search for a job and a book agent to represent my sci-fi fiction. I send off applications and query letters, but it’s like everything I”m spending my time on goes into a black hole. It makes it VERY unappealing to do either.But I know I need to do this. What are some things you all have done to keep your spirits up between jobs?

    1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

      Duolingo! Pick a language and try. Set the goal to whatever you find manageable, and get a tiny feeling of smugness as you see your points and completed modules rack up!

    2. regina phalange*

      When I was in between jobs, I did a lot of freelance writing. It didn’t pay a lot, but it was at least pocket cash, kept me busy, accountable, and less depressed. Especially because I was struggling very much with depression and what had happened at my last job. I vowed that I would workout and instead would drink wine in my pajamas. So I recommend NOT doing that part.

      1. Biff*

        Can I ask how you found gigs? One of the things I’d like to boost on my resume is my writing skills. They are considerable, but not something that was showcased in my last job.

    3. Girasol*

      If you’ve got downtime in your search and writing schedule, how about a fitness goal? Set something challenging but achievable so you can feel powerful and competent when you reach it.

    4. Turkletina*

      I’ve been driving for Lyft during my job search (never more than 2 hours/day, never at night). It forces me to get out of the house and talk to people, and it gives me practice talking to strangers and presenting myself in the best possible light, which I think has been useful for interviews.

      1. Biff*

        Good idea, but my car isn’t Lyft or Uber compliant. I’d thought about it! I like what you say about how it preps you to be better at small talk, though. That’s smart thinking.

        1. Turkletina*

          Oops, yeah, I’d meant to add a part about how it was only an option if you have a (new-ish) car. Sorry!

      2. Hallway Feline*

        This is a good idea! My car is just beyond the age for either company, but it’s low mileage enough. I’ll remember to join up when I get a newer car though! And good idea about the small talk aspect– I definitely struggle there! (Getting better since I’ve had to interview so many people though)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      One of the motivational things I tell myself is “it’s the choices we make when the chips are down that dictate how our future plays out”.
      How do you picture yourself in years to come? What can you do today to start working toward that?

      Looking at things from the opposite way, suppose you get a call tomorrow asking you to start work in the next 7-10 days. Are you ready? What would you need to do to be ready?

    6. Chaordic One*

      Although not particularly uplifting, I forced myself to do a lot of cleaning and decluttering in my house, as well as a lot of little odd jobs and home repairs. I donated a lot of junk to charity and sold a few things on eBay. I made sure that I sewed missing buttons on clothes that were nice, but not being used because they were missing buttons. I fixed a cracked window and repaired broken drawers in my kitchen. I detailed my cars.

      I told myself that I was going to have to move and that I needed to be ready to do so. I still haven’t found a job or moved, but I’m ready to go.

      1. Biff*

        Oh, I’m definitely getting through my backlog of piddly stuff to fix. I can appreciate that. I fortunately, don’t need to move.

  33. Rincat*

    I got a new job! I got a transfer/promotion to another department at my university. It’s a title change and an 11% pay increase, and I will be doing more of the work I want to do for some great bosses. It’s a brand new department and I’m the first person in this particular position, so I have a lot of freedom to really make this work the way I want to and set the tone. That’s a bit daunting in and of itself but I feel like I’m ready for that challenge. I start in February!

    Thank you Allison, and AAM community for all your advice and encouragement!!

  34. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    Hoarder co-worker’s manager has asked me to help clean hoarder co-worker’s desk. Eventually. Hoarder co-worker has apparently agreed, but we have not discussed it yet.

    Hoarder co-worker has also had the her autoreply saying she’s out of the office since November ‘so people won’t bother me’. Here since October: those boxes she was supposed to be sending to the archive.

    Her inefficiency drives me mad. So does her constant monologue.

    1. Temperance*

      Wait …. she’s there, but has an out of office? Exactly why does this person have a job?

      I would also refuse to clean up after someone else. That’s disgusting.

      1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

        She is, apparently, replying to emails. It is theoretically so external people won’t nag, but I feel like the same thing could be accomplished with a message saying ‘Hi, we’re under an end of year time crunch, but I will get back to you ASAP’. Admittedly, the problem with that is that at some time she will not be under an end of year time crunch, and people might notice.

        She has piles of paper, everywhere. It is driving her manager mad. She will not tidy on her own, (and I think she is an actual hoarder). I won the battle of the fridge in December, and I think it gave people ideas.

        Oh well. I have no give a fucks left about having my back to that DESK OF HORROR AND FOOD AND RANDOM DOLLS, and I think I have enough capital to hold me if she tries to retaliate.

        (She’s been there for twenty years. I’ve been there since July. I am still pretty sure of my capital, because both my and her managers arrived after I started)

        1. Username has gone missing*

          If she’s a hoarder she will just recreate the mess. Sudden forced clean-ups won’t solve the problem. She needs professional help.

          1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

            I wish we could get her professional help. But there are…many issues there, and a lot of institutional knowledge.

            1. Artemesia*

              So she is hoarding knowledge as well. Her manager deserves what he is going to get when she is gone one way or the other. The first thing you do when you have a knowledge hoarder who is also a problem employee is get that information one way or the other.

              No excuse for tolerating this or forcing a co-worker to be a janitor/maid for a peer.

              Hire additional janitorial help if needed.

          2. DoDah*

            Yep. My neighbor is a hoarder. About once a month (or so) her family comes over and literally fills a dumpster with what they throw out from her tiny one-bedroom apartment. The last time I was in her place, her cats were pooping on the floor (overflowing litterboxes) and the hall to her bedroom was blocked with boxes of stuff.

            I digress–but unless your co-worker gets help—you’ll be cleaning up after her until she retires.

    2. Karanda Baywood*

      OMG. You are being asked to clean out the desk of a person who still works there?

      NOPE. No way in hell. It’s not your responsibility.

      1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

        I am a departmental assistant, and I have previously taken on the responsibility of making sure we do not all die by filthy fridge. And my boss is very clear that I am only to agree if I think my work can handle it.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      What the hell? Can you refuse to help clean? Gross. Some random SVP in a different dept. tried to get me to clean out a bunch of cubicles in her area because they were moving and I just looked at her like she was nuts and said “no, there’s no reason your project managers can’t clean up after themselves” (project managers are entry level here).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Her boss does understand that this will do nothing to solve the problem, right? She knows that she will only have to do it again, right?

    5. Artemesia*

      This is appalling unless she has been fired. To expect to provide maid service for a slovenly co-worker is beyond the pale. No co-worker should be put in this position. The willingness of managers to abuse good employees to avoid managing just makes me crazy when I read about it. Your boss is horrible.

  35. Applesauced*

    My company offers good health insurance – very low premiums plus a pretty generous stipend (FSA/HSA debit card) for medical expenses; it’s not the top of the line coverage, but for young healthy people it’s more than enough. My boyfriend and I compared our respective plans , realized we could save money if he joined my plan as a domestic partner, so I signed him up for a plan with a $125 monthly premium.

    Earlier this week, I checked my first paycheck of 2017, and there was an unexpected deduction for about $200, so I contacted payroll to find out what’s up. Welcome to the wonderful world of “imputed income” – the cost that the company pays for a DP’s insurance is treated as additional income to the employee, and that “income” is taxable.

    Which means it is actually going to cost us $525/month – the $125 premium PLUS the $400 in taxes. It’s over than FOUR TIMES what we expected!

    I attended an info session at the office, I spoke with HR in person SPECIFICALLY about adding a DP, and this imputed income tax was never mentioned. Why isn’t this explained in BIG BOLD letters when you sign up with a domestic partner?!

    We’ve been together for 5 years, and have abstractly talked about getting married, but this new wrinkle is making us talk seriously about running off to city hall now and figuring out a more formal wedding later. How romantic…

    1. Biff*

      Seriously — run off to city hall and just have a big shindig instead of a wedding. Don’t spend money on formal clothes, or renting a church or trying to nail down a special date. Just blow it all on booze, nibbles, and music. Regardless of when you do the wedding, that’s my advice.

      Also, I’ really sorry to hear about your bennies. That is crap and we all know it.

      1. Temperance*

        Eh, I’m going to disagree with your phrasing. I think she should do the paperwork now, have the wedding later. Have a fun blowout, but still do the actual wedding ceremony and say your vows and all that good stuff.

        I had to do something similar, and all the people with Very Strong Feelings about a “real wedding” were so darn obnoxious.

          1. Temperance*

            I don’t agree with this at all. I don’t feel that you need to broadcast that you signed some paperwork for insurance reasons / other boring reasons.

            I also disagree that signing paperwork is the “real wedding”. No one needs to know that, because frankly, the only people who care are the disapproving jerk sort who want to crow on and on about missing the “wedding”.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              It is considered very poor etiquette to have a wedding when you are already married (if you keep it a secret). I personally don’t give a crap either way, but the real etiquette mavens are pretty clear on this.

              1. Temperance*

                Plenty of etiquette rules are roundly ignored. I vote for ignoring this one as well, especially when people are going to be huge d-bags about it.

                1. Lily in NYC*

                  Unkind and unnecessary thing to write about people who don’t agree with you or might get upset about something that doesn’t bother you.

                2. Temperance*

                  People who take great offense at something someone else has done that has literally no impact on them whatsoever are d-bags.

                  People who have a different opinion but treat other people well are not d-bags. For instance, Trout Waver and I don’t agree, but I don’t think he/she is worthy of an insult for being a kind person with a differing opinion.

            2. Trout 'Waver*

              I put a lot of value in officially becoming a family in view of God and our state. It meant a lot to me to do so surrounded by my friends and family. It means a lot to me also to be the friends and family that’s there to support and cherish a new family being started.

              I totally understand that someone people get married months before for practical reasons. I’m totally cool with that, and it’s definitely the right way to go in many situations. I’ll still show up and enthusiastically celebrate your family if you have a wedding at a later date even if I wasn’t there the moment when your family was officially recognized.

              But lying to me about it for your own convenience so you don’t have to listen to a few boors leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Why invite your guests on false pretenses?

              1. Temperance*

                I largely have the same opinions about the importance of publicly affirming the union, although I honestly didn’t feel married until I had a wedding. I’m not even a little religious, so that wasn’t a factor for us.

                We really didn’t feel that it was “false pretenses”, because, to us, that moment was when we unified as a couple. It wasn’t about convenience, and we don’t feel that we lied.

              2. Overeducated*

                How is it lying? I had to get married on paper separately, a few days early, because my minister refused to act as an agent of the state for moral reasons. The wedding in front of my family, friends, and God was real in my eyes! You wouldn’t say I lied to the witnesses for the legal wedding because I didn’t have a priest there….

          2. Applesauced*

            Yeah, this is kind of where I fall. I went to a friend’s wedding and another friend got tipsy the night before and let slip to a small group of us that the bride and groom were already married (also for insurance purposes) I still went to the wedding and am happy for them, but felt a little bit misled.

      2. Applesauced*

        We’re probably do something in between – it’s still getting married, so I’d at least do a casual white dress and for flowers from the corner store at city hall, but then a second ceremony (renewal?) and party with friends and family.
        I’m torn on keeping the first wedding a secret, a) my mom works in benefits, so I asked her about this already, so she already knows, b) I don’t know if I could really keep it secret, and c) I mentioned downthread that I found out a friend was already married at her wedding and was a little annoyed.

        1. vpc*

          Don’t keep it a secret – just show up wearing your ring one day and when people ask, say you eloped, and the celebration will happen in a few months!

          Seriously. I think at least 50% of the friends who’ve gotten married recently have eloped – whether to the courthouse, or to a destination – in some cases with advance notice (“we’re eloping in June, please don’t be offended, no one’s invited except the court-required witnesses, but of course we’ll let you know when the reception is scheduled”) and others with less (“hey, how was your weekend? Great! We got married Friday afternoon! Stay tuned for a barbecue to celebrate our 1-year anniversary next summer!”) and no one, except in one case the mother of the bride – the primary reason the couple was eloping, they’d already tried to plan their wedding three times and she was so interfering they said heck with it and cancelled each before the plans got too far – was hurt, resentful, or annoyed. Mostly people will just be happy for you, and glad to celebrate when you do your shindig.

    2. Temperance*

      Booth and I did the Quaker self-uniting marriage license for insurance reasons, had our wedding later, and only like 3 people know that we did the license ahead of time. I didn’t tell anyone and asked him not to because I didn’t want anyone to get all self-righteous about us not having a “real” wedding, and demanding that we call our wedding a reception or party.

      Our wedding was when we said vows in front of people we cared about. Yours will be, too. We don’t even acknowledge the date that we signed the license and dropped it in the mail, because, well, it was paperwork and not a wedding.

      2. Murphy*

        I did something very similar. I was fired while I was engaged and for insurance reasons, we went to the courthouse and got married about 5 months before our wedding was supposed to take place. Our parents and close friends knew, but no one else. I totally agree that it was just paperwork. (And as an aside: ended up needing major surgery 3 weeks before the wedding, so good thing we did that!)

    3. Tris Prior*

      Yes, we got nailed with this too, though we didn’t really have a better choice at the time (pre-ACA) since I didn’t have insurance through my job.

      What killed me is that his company screwed this up and failed to take out the taxes on my insurance that he should’ve been paying all along. For four years…. :(

    4. Academia Escapee*

      My husband and I got married for purely financial reason (we love each other, but as we’re older and have both been married before, we would have been content to “live in sin” for the rest of our lives). I was the domestic partner on HIS insurance and that imputed income SUCKED. Once his divorce was final (I met him 2 years after he had moved out and it took another 2 years to make it final – long story), we got married mostly for the insurance issue (and to ensure there wouldn’t be any problems if one of us fell ill). Didn’t tell ANYONE because we were concerned his adult children would have issues and we didn’t want to deal with a wedding. So we hired a boat that took us to an island (a sandbar, really). Captain married us on the beach at sunset and we had a little picnic before going back. Now we have more money in our pockets and a nice little secret.

    5. Sophie Winston*

      Yup. This is why so few same sex partners took advantage of their partner’s health benefits before DOMA was repealed a couple years ago, even in states where they were legally married. As the marriage was not federally recognized, the value of the employer paid portion of the premiums was taxable at the federal level.

      But not at the state level, so add on the extra cost of preparing two sets of federal tax returns, the official unmarried set and the proforma married set to get the numbers used on the state forms.

      Sorry to get all bitter, but please take a moment to be grateful that $40 and a visit to the courthouse will solve a problem that same sex couples had to live with for decades.

      1. No Name Yet*

        Yup. My now-wife was actually on my health insurance for years, because otherwise she would have had no insurance at all. As grad students, those taxes were really really tough, since we were living on so little anyway. It’s still kind of astonishing to me that our taxes are now the same as our heterosexual married friends.

  36. Danae*

    Any suggestions on how to phrase an “It’s not you, it’s…actually it really is you” email when dropping out as a candidate for a job?

    I had a very promising phone interview yesterday for a job I would be very, very good at. Unfortunately, the job is based in LA, and a particularly awful part of LA to boot. (I live in Washington State, so this would be a big move.) Not just that, but they have an open office and I have a disability that makes it very stressful to attempt to deal with noise all day long.

    There is no chance that I will ever want to work for this company, and I feel like the feedback that their open office and no options for remote work is losing them qualified candidates might be useful for them to hear. I won’t send them anything unless they decide they’d like to move forward with me, but if they do I’m thinking of sending them something like “I’m sorry, but after doing further research on your company, I’m going to need to withdraw my candidacy. I need a quiet and non-distracting environment in order to do my best work, and in my experience open offices are really detrimental to my quality of work. Best of luck!”

    Thoughts? Is that diplomatic enough?

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t think you owe them an explanation, so you don’t even need to be that specific. Just say that you’ve decided that the job isn’t for you and you’re withdrawing.

      1. Michele*

        Yep. No need to go into details. What it is about LA, though? Many years ago I was job hunting and employer called me. When they said where the job was located, I told them I wasn’t interested. They asked why and I told them that I didn’t want to live or work in LA. They pressed for some reason. I asked the guy what his commute was, and he said it was two hours each way. I told him that was why.

        1. Audiophile*

          My cousin moved to LA, the Berkeley area, I believe. It looks pretty nice and I’m seriously jealous of then weather she gets to enjoy. I’ve heard San Diego and Oakland aren’t bad either.

          I once applied for a job at a nonprofit in CA. And made it past a phone interview, they wanted to do a Skype interview, at which point I pulled out. I had no quiet place to do that. And the idea of undertaking such a huge move (I’m in the suburbs of NY) was stressful.

            1. Audiophile*

              See I don’t know California at all lol.

              Let me clarify, she was in the LA area at a one point, then moved to Berkeley.

          2. insert name*

            Ha this reminds me of an east coast colleague who once referred to the “major cities in America: New York, Boston and California.”

          3. Hallway Feline*

            San Diego is a nice place, depending on where you are in the city. Downtown is crowded, hard to park at, etc. (as with most major cities), but the further away from downtown you go, you can get nicer areas and better commutes.

            But yes, LA and Berkeley are nowhere near each other. Neither are San Diego and LA for that matter.

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        Yeah, this is what I would do. If they come back and ask for more details, you could maybe say something like the environment doesn’t sound like it would be a fit for you and offer up some examples like the lack of remote work options. But honestly, unless you are a superstar candidate or it’s a job that’s very hard to hire for, they will probably just accept the high level note about withdrawing your candidacy.

    2. Biff*

      I agree with Murphy that you really owe them nothing. But if you feel like it would make sense for you to say something, for the sake of others, or your conscience, I’d say it like this:

      “Dear Vanilla Teapots,

      While I enjoyed talking to Prof. X, Wolverine, and Lady Marvel and felt that my gift for creating irresistible designs would find a good home among your design team, and I even loved your lavish, generous benefits package, I found myself consistently thinking back to the open office you’ve created. I’m introverted and I need quiet time to do the award winning work I advertised to you. And open office is frankly, a place where I would fail to perform. I really thought I could have swung it if there were work from home days. I could have focused on my designs while at home, in my studio, and focused on marketing, testing concerns, and materials while in the office. However, that’s not an option. I realise that both of us felt we had this in the bag, but if you hired me, I”d want to give you my very best effort. In this environment, I just can’t, and that would be unfair to you. I would like to withdraw my candidacy if we can’t come to a workable compromise.

      Thanks,

      Teapot Extraordinaire.”

    3. Helena*

      Since you have a disability, they would be legally required under the ADA to make reasonable accommodation. If you discussed that on the interview and they said “no accommodation” I would bring it up. Otherwise, I would assume they know the downsides of open offices and follow Murphy’s advice.

      1. Jesmlet*

        I’m pretty sure building new walls in their office doesn’t fall under reasonable accommodation, but if you were asking for an accommodation to wear ear buds or headphones to block out the noise, this would be a different story. At OldJob, we had a tech guy who had schizophrenia and he found playing music to be really helpful to block out any noise/auditory hallucinations.

        You can feel free to bring it up, but they’re certainly not going to change their office layout because of your opinion. It’s part of the cultural/environmental fit thing which is perfectly valid imo.

    4. Sunflower*

      I think less is definitely more in this situation. Just say you would like to withdraw your candidacy as relocating to LA is not an option for you. I guess you could add that remote work is important to you and you don’t work well in open offices but I would keep any of that focused on YOU, not on the company.

      I would not say anything about the open office or remote work otherwise. While I know open offices aren’t popular, there are some people who like that. I would especially not say anything about the remote work. It’s a pretty common fact that remote work is a perk and they’ve made the decision it’s not for them. It could make you come off as the type who knows the company better than they do. I’m not saying you’re wrong- just saying it could do more harm than good.

      And even though you may have decided you don’t want to work there, you never know where these people might end up. Or who they know. Seems there is everything to lose and nothing to gain by giving them your input.

      1. LA Anon*

        +1 to Sunflower

        I live in LA and work in an open office where we can’t work remotely…. and to be completely honest with you, the hiring manager is much more likely to think poorly of you than of their own office plan and lack of remote options. There are so many good candidates looking for work in this area and you never know who that particular hiring manager is connected to…not worth possibly getting your own name tarnished.

    5. Chaordic One*

      If you get an offer and need to turn it down I would just say something simple along the lines of:

      “After giving your generous offer considerable thought I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that I’m not a good match for the position. Thank you very much for your consideration.”

  37. Anon good nurse*

    So I’m in a strange (or at least previously unencountered) situation. I’ve been with my company for almost three months. It’s small start-up and one of the reasons that I joined was that there’s a lot of opportunity to cultivate processes and work with interesting clients. I really like the majority of my colleagues and generally really enjoy it. However, lately, this week things have been a little strange and I’m not sure how to handle it. This week, our boss called out on Monday and Tuesday unexpectedly. Called out is a loose term because he texted the new hire he’s meant to be training and maybe one other person but hasn’t responded to anyone else on the team via email, phone, or text. Then, in the following days, he’s been MIA. Yesterday it seemed that no one knew where he is. Today, one of the guys on my team mentioned that he knows and it’s a “weird” situation but he doesn’t know how much he can say. I gather that our gossipy tech guy had told him about it. On top of that, it’s been a strange week because my boss’ boss was traveling for work through Wednesday and then has been in and out of the office with clients the rest of the week. He’s said nothing to any of us when he has been here. In essence, there’s gossip rumbling periodically and I’m getting a little frustrated that we haven’t received so much as an indication of where we should direct certain necessary communication in my boss’ absence. He was maybe in a car accident (something that I overheard but can far from confirm) but I find it strange that if he were in the hospital or something, we wouldn’t simply be informed directly that he will not be in the office for the foreseeable future. Instead it’s a daily question: will boss be in? I’m planning on pulling my boss’ boss aside and asking him about a few items that my boss would typically handle because I’m not really sure what else to do.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Big Boss, I don’t wish to pry. But I would like to know what I should tell people who call asking for Direct Boss. If you could give me something to say, I would really appreciate that.”

    2. bluesboy*

      I think your plan is the best one. You don’t need to know why your boss is out, but have to assume it’s legit and if not, it’s boss’ boss’ job to deal with it. So you deal with YOUR job, and in his absence speak to the next most appropriate person. Which is your plan!

      I might just add a quick ‘how do you want me to handle these until Jeff comes back?’ to the conversation as Big Boss may well be handling extra work due to this and might be comfortable with you handling directly work that you would have normally looked at with the boss – and might even appreciate noticing that you can work independently if necessary.

  39. Collie*

    I know this has come up before, but can we discuss effective ways to write out achievement-oriented duties for resumes when your duties are just duties again? I’m trying to revamp my resume and I’m really struggling with this.

    1. Jesmlet*

      Most people’s jobs have a least something quantifiable about them. Even if they’re sitting at a desk answering phone calls, there’s always a certain number of calls or something like that. Have you implemented any improvements to the existing process? Reorganized filing so that it’s more efficient? It would be easier if we knew what your responsibilities were so we could suggest an area of focus.

      1. Collie*

        Unfortunately, I’m super low-level, so almost none of my suggestions have been implemented. There might be a few I can add, though…

    2. CAA*

      Can you give us some examples of the duties you’re trying to describe as achievements? Then we can give specific help.

      1. Collie*

        Sure. I do a mix of circulation and reference work in a small non-public library. I’ve thought about using circulation numbers, but really, it depends on where we are in the fiscal year and not on anything I’m doing that determines how many books are checked out or how many questions are asked, in the case of reference work. We’re so small, too, that I’m pretty sure the statistics I do have on reference interactions and such wouldn’t be impressive, anyway. Any ideas?

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Have you developed a new program? Maybe something with assessing your numbers? How about created a new policy? I think achievements are sometimes something like, “Created new method for answering teapot questions.” Just because there isn’t a number attached, doesn’t make it not an achievement.

          1. Collie*

            I’ve tried, but the place where I work is really stuck in their ways, so anything I have changed has been minimal personal preference stuff.

        3. Emac*

          What makes you good at your job? Are you really good at finding answers to questions quickly? Do you know all the regular patrons and what they like, so you can recommend books? And what kind of jobs are you applying for? That could help you figure out what to emphasize.

    3. copy run start*

      Problem/Action/Result. Or Result/Action/Problem. You can change the order, but that’s the thick of it for non-quantifiable stuff. I like to lead with Result. Examples:

      Problem: Cat says he is not getting fed on time
      Action: Taught cat how to tell time
      Result: Less meowing, more purring and cuddling
      “Taught cat to accurately tell time to resolve cats’ issues with feeding schedule, resulting in an increase in purring and cuddling.”

  40. AnonEMoose*

    This does relate to work, just not my job. I’m wondering how other people here would have handled this situation. Last weekend, we stopped at a fast food place for a late lunch. I went to use the restroom before we left. One of the workers was in there using the sink; she said something apologetic, and I said something like “You guys have to use the bathroom, too!” and went about my business.

    Anyway, I exited the stall and she was still standing there, looking upset (I think she was probably no more than 18, maybe more like 16). She was upset because her boss was telling her that she had to take out her 3-day old lip piercing (it wasn’t a big one, just a stud, but pretty shiny), and she didn’t know what to do. Now, I’m no expert on piercings. But I do know that if she took out the stud at that point, she probably wouldn’t be able to get it back in, and messing with it is a pretty good way to increase the chances of infection.

    Both of which I told her, which seemed to help. And I hope she was able to work something out. I wish I’d remembered that, sometimes, putting a band aid over a piercing is an acceptable compromise. I felt sorry for her – she was just a kid, probably her first job, and had no idea how to handle this. As for why she asked me…this stuff just happens to me. I’m pretty sure it’s genetic…it happens to my mother, too.

    Anyway, what would you have told her, if she had asked you?

    1. Michele*

      That is tough. I grew up poor in a small town without many jobs to choose from, so I had to put up with a lot of garbage. I had to work when I was 16, and I wasn’t very good at sticking up for myself. Bosses in fast food are also horrible bullies. They won’t fire you, but they will make your shifts as miserable as possible.

      As an adult, I would have kept it in and asked the boss to show me exactly where in the employee manual facial piercings are forbidden (and they might be). As a teenager who needed work, though, it is a lot tougher.

      I do think you were right to warn her about infection. She could also get some nasty scars from taking it in and out too soon.

    2. Tris Prior*

      You can get clear placeholder “jewelry” to hold the piercing open, and it’s nearly invisible. Though, I’m not sure you can put one of those in if the piercing is that new.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        LOL! I only have my ears pierced, and only once each. So not a lot of direct experience here, either. But I do have a lot of friends who have tattoos, piercings, and so on, so I’ve picked up some information that way.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think you gave her a good answer. She has to take it out if she wants to work the shift, so take it out and talk to someone later about putting it back in or not.

      Sometimes when I can’t answer a question, my go-to is to help the person find someone who will. So I might have asked her if she had her cell on her. Then asked her who she knew that would have suggestions on how to handle this.

    5. Lynxa*

      I’d tell her to just take the ball off and see if he noticed. But I’ve had a looooot of piercings in my day.

  41. Lo*

    Hello chocolate teapot friends! Looking for a new job? Have I found the thing for you….a Chocolate Supply Chain position (Not joking! See here: http://equalexchange.coop/chocolate-supply-chain-coordinator )

    All jokes aside, I found this position when looking for internships and I immediately thought of AAM and readers. I love the chocolate teapot concept that we use here. I am also! looking for advice on the job hunt– when it is instead the internship hunt at the moment.

    I am having a lot of trouble finding internships that suit my program — graduate degree in international affairs. People who have been through MA programs, any advice on internship-finding and applications? A lot of people in my program use their own connections to find an internship, but my previous work is out of state/outside of this field. I’d really love to get something in policy at least, and preferably international policy, and in this geographic area, because of long-term goals to stay in the area, etc. Any advice on how to find more options in my field, or even (gulp) how to approach a company that doesn’t have a specific internship program, in order to frame a “hey I’ll work for you for free and create my own project to benefit your organization” (I can get funding from school, hopefully, if I do this)?

    Also, people out there who hire interns…anything specific you feel really sets an internship app apart? Any advice is appreciated!

    Thanks!

  42. ThatGirl*

    The dim-bulb contractor I mentioned last week who was spelling out “comma” in Excel file names moved on to spelling out “ampersand” and “hyphen” so I finally said something, and he defended it by saying he’d been told (by me, but I think he forgot that part) to use our specific category names instead of whatever he thought they should be and so he was being “really specific”.

    At which point I mentally facepalmed and told him not to be so literal.

    3. Trix*

      I actually have thought about that story a few times this week, whenever I was naming some new spreadsheet. Just for my own personal enjoyment, I renamed the one I’m working on now as AlertsClosedCommaNotLoggedHyphenDEC2016.

      I’m the only one that will see it, but it’ll provide a little giggle every time I open it up. :-)

  43. Jumanji*

    Just posting good news. After months of struggling with an adverserial relationship with my boss at my new job and dealing with the repurcussions of his lack of/crappy planning, I am at a point in my job where I am firmly in charge of my project (rather than at odds with my boss about who is in charge), my boss seems to have backed off trying to compete with me, and our previous adverserial dynamic seems to have softened. This is a job that drove me to seek EAP counseling in my 4th week. In my 6th month (after months of frustration and stress), things seemed to have turned a corner for the better.

    At the same time, I went on a job interview this week and was told I was in the final four finalists they are considering. I am seeing good job openings in my area that are comparable to my current job and I am slowly getting bites in the job applications I sent out starting last month.

    1. Michele*

      Fingers crossed for the new job! In the meantime, it is good that things are going better. That sounds very stressful.

    2. Catz*

      How do you think you were able to improve the relationship? I’m worried I have some work relationships teetering on that dynamic.

      1. Jumanji*

        I think a combination of dogged persistance in getting my work done and tenacity in standing my ground even when it goes against what my bosses want (but steering them to correct and realistic decision making) earned me some respect and demonstrated my competence in accomplishing the project. But it sure as hell was not an easy process to get here! Like I said I went to EAP counseling and psychological counseling

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I hate it when a person has to prove themselves before they can receive basic human respect. It doesn’t just happen in jobs, there are people who interact this way also, you have to prove your worth before they will show you respect.

  44. Michele*

    About a month ago, my employer announced that they would have layoffs. They are, of course, being opaque about future plans. I survived the first round, but I don’t trust that there won’t be another. Consequentially, I posted my resume on a few job sites. In the two weeks following that, I noticed that I would occasionally get calls from unknown numbers, but no one would leave a message, so I assumed they were sales calls. Well, come to find out, my voicemail wasn’t working. It took me a while to figure out because friends and family don’t really leave voicemail anymore. It really stinks because I had submitted resumes for a couple of jobs that I thought would be a good fit, but I will never know if they tried to contact me.

    Can resumes be refreshed on job hunting websites by deactivating and reactivating the account or by deleting and reloading the resume?

    What about the individual companies? In particular, there was one that I would love to pursue that I had submitted a resume to. The company would be an excellent fit with both my values and my experience, and it was geographically perfect. Their website says that they don’t post most jobs but encourage people to submit resumes. If they had called and were unable to leave a message or left one that they thought would be ignored, I am sure they just went on to the next person and probably won’t look at me again. Should I resubmit my resume to them?

      1. Michele*

        When I am screening candidates, I always email to set up a phone call, but I know that not everyone does that. I have heard friends complain about getting unexpected calls when they were doing something important.

    2. CAA*

      Yes, if you repost your resume on sites like Indeed, it will come up as new again for employers who are searching.

      For the calls you missed, google the phone numbers and see if you can figure out where they were from. You don’t really know if they were sales calls or not at this point. If I called someone I wanted to interview and couldn’t leave a voicemail, I would definitely send an email, I wouldn’t just give up. So no, I wouldn’t resubmit your resume unless you are sure that one or more of the missed calls was from this company. If you do resubmit, then make sure the email you send in with the resume says they called you at a time when your phone was not working correctly, and you want them to know you’re still interested.

  45. Camellia*

    In the open thread for December 23-24, I posted a question and received responses but didn’t get to reply back at that time due to stuff. So I’d like to thank the responders and continue the convo.

    Original question, with suggested edits:
    “What can I do for next year’s Professional Development? I am a Senior Systems Analyst in IT, been working in my field for 37 years, started out as a programmer and have done just about everything on the Applications side of the IT house, am at the top of my career path and don’t want to go into management. I’ve taken all the courses they currently offer at my company. I work on new projects so I’m forced to learn a lot of new stuff at a very fast pace all the time, so when I peruse the Adult Education course at local colleges I’m like, my brain is full there is no more room!

    H.C. asked, “Are there conferences or workshops for the systems/vendors you use? That would definitely count.”
    Good question – I will ask about this at my review.

    CAA asked, (Part 1) “Can you turn it around so that your professional development is focused on helping develop more junior people? How about learning something about teaching or mentoring? Maybe take a course in presentation or public speaking skills. Lead a group to help other employees learn enough to pass a certification exam that your company cares about.”
    Great questions – I’ve done a lot of training over the years, both one-on-one and with classes. I trained our last four QAs and the last two junior SAs that joined our team. And I give a lot of presentations to committees (who ask lots of in-depth questions), sometimes as often as one a week.

    CAA asked, (Part 2) “Or present a paper or topic at an industry conference where you talk about how your company has worked on or solved some interesting problem that other people also have.”
    Hmm, not something I’ve thought of. I work for BigInsuranceCompany and this is usually done at a much higher level than my role. I will give this some thought.

    NW Mossy said, “In addition to what’s already been suggested, look at the projects that are slated for you for the next year and use that as your framework. For example, if you’ve got Project A that requires you to learn new thing X, you can say “Develop my skills in X to ensure an on-time deployment of Project A that satisfies Z% of the requirements outlined by [whoever does that].” Organizations love it when you tie your development to an outcome they care about.”
    Good idea – especially when I am dropped into a project unexpectedly. I am very bad about updating my “official” goals throughout the year and this would work especially well with that.

    Thanks to all who replied! Does anyone have any other suggestions?

    1. NW Mossy*

      Glad you found it helpful! And if anyone asks why you’re updating your goals, you can tell them that you’re a fan of agile goal-setting. It’s the latest buzzword at my job, so feel free to steal it.

    2. CAA*

      One of the directions I was going with my ideas for presentations and trainings was to try to get into a more visible “company ambassador”-like role in a larger community whether that’s inside or outside your company.

      You might not be able to speak at a conference, but you could look for local user groups or professional associations where you can become an active participant. If you use an ERP system, or some insurance specific application, then there may be other users in your area. This kind of involvement helps with the company’s overall reputation in the community and can aid in recruiting as well. This is something I suggest to my senior people who basically they know everything they need to know to do the technical side of their jobs and are having trouble writing professional development goals. A couple of years ago I had one guy who was excited about participating in hackathons, so his goal was to recruit a couple other people and form a team that represented the company in a positive and professional way at a couple of other events during the year. (I got the company to pay the entry fees for the hackathons, but they paid their own travel when they went to one that was out of town, and they could keep their winnings.)

  46. jdm*

    Dealing with a big disappointment at work — my boss and grandboss were both scheduled to retire this summer, and they had plans to create a new position for me in a different division that would have been super interesting work and an amazing work schedule. Basically, they were creating my dream job. However, the board that oversees grandboss begged her to stay on, so boss and grandboss will not retire for another 18 months….and so I’m keeping my current position for another 18 months. I don’t hate it, but the schedule is tiresome and since I’ve been doing the work for 5 years, I’m just bored.
    I’m trying to chin up, but man I wanted that new job.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Aw, I’m so sorry. Try to stay positive and make yourself indispensable to them! Hopefully you’ll get that role eventually.

  47. Should I stay or should I go now?*

    I’m finding myself in a catch-22 situation with regards to my job. In March I’ll hit 2 years at my current job, with my job history in my career being 1 year of temp jobs-> perm job (with promotion) that was 3 years and some change-> special project (done during the 6 months I was job searching after layoff)-> almost 2 years at current company. I know it’d be better to leave after 3 years instead of 2, but the problem is that I have almost *no* work to do at my current job and the little work that I have to do is completely not related to my career (I’m doing QA instead of analysis). I feel like if I hang out another year (which I really don’t want to do because I’m bored to tears and not advancing my career or my earning potential at all) it might look better but it’s going to leave me intellectually behind all of my peers.

    Any advice? I have revamped my resume and am planning to start looking anyway, but I’m worried that I’ll look bad as a candidate because I’ve got shorter stints different places (tho I understand that is becoming the new normal). I figure I can explain away a lot of why I’m leaving by saying “I’m looking for new challenges not currently offered in my position at my company” but honestly I’m going *mad* having 3 hours of work to do a week!

    1. DevAssist*

      Could you maybe find work-related things to do? Like take a refresher course in your field or do online trainings during the work day since you don’t have much actual work to do?

      I’m kind of in a similar situation in regards to time spent in the position. I’ve been in my current job for a year (which is long enough for me) but I think with my future plans to change my field, for financial stability I’m going to need to stay maybe another year, even though I want nothing more than to move on RIGHT NOW.

  48. Dzhymm, BfD*

    I’ve been refreshing my browser just waiting for the open thread to appear so I could describe my sitch:: I just got me a new job (YAAAY!!!) It’s an engineering position, and as such it’s not uncommon to have employees sign a nondisclosure/noncompete agreement when they start work. At my current job they rushed to get me in the door because they needed stuff done Right Away, and they shoved this thing under my nose the minute I walked in the door: “You can’t start work until you sign this”. Needless to say, I wasn’t happy about this. These noncompetes often have all kinds of unenforceable provisions in them, and I would have liked to have had a chance to review it (and maybe even run it past a labor lawyer) before signing. I signed, reluctantly, because hey — job, bills to pay, you know the drill.

    Hoping to avoid such a scenario again, with my new employer I was able to negotiate a more relaxed pace (two weeks’ notice at current job, then a gap week before starting the new one). When I accepted the job I asked about seeing the employment agreement before starting. Specifically, when I accepted over the phone I said “Could you send me any pre-employment paperwork I may need to sign for my review?” and the guy said “Sure, no prob”. They then emailed me an offer letter and a benefits summary… but no employment agreement. I emailed back to accept in writing: “I will leave my current position on January 20 and will start at NewCorp on January 30. Oh, and can you send me that employment agreement?”. The reply: “We look forward to seeing you on the 30th”. No mention of employment agreement.

    At this point, should I press the matter? Or would that be pushing my luck? Are there any managers out there who have been on the other side of such a situation that could give me insights? I *think* I may have a bit of leverage here in that I’ve been told I was far and away their favorite candidate for the job, and the CEO called me personally to ask me to accept the position (I was debating going with them or another company I was interested in. Company #2 fell through).

    Thoughts?

      1. Dzhymm, BfD*

        It definitely exists; they mentioned in the offer letter that I’d have to sign it before starting work.

        1. CAA*

          Did they call it an “employment agreement” in the offer letter? If not, make sure you’re using the same words they use so they know what document you’re talking about.

          Otherwise, call on the 23rd and say that you were hoping to receive the x document this week so you’d be able to sign it and start on the 30th. If they aren’t going to be able to get it to you before then, then you’d like to change your start date and what would work for them?

          But … even if you get it in advance, and don’t like the terms, what exactly are you going to do about it? Unless you’re coming in as a very high executive, these things are generally not negotiable, so even if your lawyer says it’s unenforceable you either sign it or walk.

          1. Dzhymm, BfD*

            Yes. The exact language in the offer letter is: “On your first day of employment you will be required to sign an employment agreement documenting the terms and conditions of your employment”. As for why I want to see it in advance: I want an opportunity to read it carefully (perhaps with the assistance of counsel) and request clarification of any items that seem questionable. And yes, I might very well ask for modifications. As another poster said, sometimes asking will get them thinking about certain things. One example: In the agreement I signed with my current employer, the noncompete clause did not distinguish between volunary and involuntary separation. To me there’s a difference between my (voluntarily) quitting to work for a competitor, and their firing me. In the latter case, if they dismiss me they should not then have control over my future employment.

    2. Judy*

      I’ve been a engineer for over 25 years, and I’ve always had a nondisclosure and ip agreement, but never had a non compete agreement. Although at this current company, with less than 75 employees, I only received the nondisclosure and ip agreement after I asked. The engineering director said that they should probably have one of those and two weeks later everyone had to sign.

    3. Sadsack*

      I’d ask again, maybe call next time. I think you might consider whether you want to work there if they are being coy about the employment agreement in order to get you to sign without careful review. Luck didn’t get you the job, your skills, experience, knowledge, etc. did. I am not a hiring manager, this is just my feeling. It also may just be an honest oversight, so I don’t know why asking would hurt. If it does hurt, you probably don’t want to work there unless you really need a job.

    4. Sunflower*

      Employment agreement is a very vague term and it’s possible their idea of one is just an offer letter that says you accept the position. Email him and ask him to send over an non-disclosure or other legal documents you will need to sign.

    5. Dzhymm, BfD*

      Well, either the timing was fortuitous or somebody at NewJob reads AAM :) They sent me a copy of the employee agreement late this afternoon, and it’s actually quite reasonable as these things go. The “noncompete” portion covers poaching employees and doing business with customers after leaving the company, but notable in its absence is the “You won’t work in this industry for two years” sort of clause. My guess is that this company realized that these clauses are both difficult to enforce *and* are bad for morale. My opinion of this company, while already pretty high, has gone up another notch after reading this.

  49. oldfashionedlovesong*

    I just got a job offer that would let me move back to the home state I dearly miss!

    Problem: It pays 50K and that is apparently after the supervisor fought with HR to bump it from 47K. I currently make 75K. It’s in a much higher cost-of-living area than where I live now, to the point where I’m not sure I could live comfortably.

    I’m so conflicted. This is just the type of job I want to be doing, but where’s the financial justification for taking a 1/3 pay cut? While I hate my job and where I live right now, I live simply but comfortably and have managed to save money and do some traveling. In doing the math, this job change would basically take me back to grad student caliber living – a crappy apartment with roommates, basic food, nearly no money for non-essentials like eating out or traveling, and very little cushion for a car breakdown, medical emergency, etc. I’m in my late 20s and I’m a very risk-averse person, not the type to “live my broke bliss”. I’m pretty sure I’m going to say no and then curl up in fetal position for the weekend, but how can I be sure I’m not making the wrong choice?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Bottom line is money vs. happiness. How miserable are you? An extra $25k worth of miserable?

      Other considerations, is the new job in line with what all companies/orgs in that industry pay in the area you want to move to or might it be possible to hold out for more money at another company? If the new job is in an area with a higher cost of living, it stands to reason that the company should be paying more than what you’re currently making, not less, unless you’re going from say Fortune 500 to small nonprofit.

      If I were faced with your decision, I wouldn’t take the $50k job. It can take years, maybe even a decade depending upon your location and industry, to recover from such a significant pay increase. Even if you can get back to your current pay in 5 years, you’ve forgone $125k in salary and potential retirement savings in that time. I too am risk averse and that would just be too much for me. Best of luck in your decision!

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        ^^ pay decrease, I meant takes a long time to recover from a significant pay decrease….ugh…it’s Friday.

        1. oldfashionedlovesong*

          Haha, no worries, I picked up what you were putting down. Thank you, actually, because that sentence: “Even if you can get back to your current pay in 5 years, you’ve forgone $125k in salary and potential retirement savings in that time” really brought it home for me. Maybe I’m personally/socially miserable, but I’m not 125k-over-five-years miserable. Especially since I am fairly sure I wouldn’t get back to my current pay in five years – it’s probably closer to a decade.

          I’d actually be going from a small nonprofit to a huge academic institution- which on the face of it would seem to portend a pay raise. They should be paying more for the area and as such a large and prestigious employer, and I can’t quite ascertain why they’re not- not just me, but all the other coworkers (the salaries are public info, and it looks like my immediate superior, who’s been there for years, makes only 52K, so part of my offer is likely an equity issue.) I can sympathize with the equity thing, but I shouldn’t personally take a hit for it.

          I appreciate your thoughts! I think I know what I have to do. It hurts because it’s the first job offer I’ve gotten in 2.5 years that would take me home to do work I love… but it’s not enough.

          1. Not Today Satan*

            My friend works for an Ivy League school and says that they actually pay less than less prestigious schools because people are so eager to work there. =\

            1. oldfashionedlovesong*

              Good point- I think there is definitely some of that at play. This area is often held up as the kind of place EVERYONE wants to live; this employer is known as the kind of institution EVERY academic/professional wants to work for… so I feel like there’s an ability to blanket lowball candidates because they know it’s much more tempting to take a pay cut to move there than most other places.
              My friend is a physician and was telling me last night that you see this a lot in physician recruitment too: sure, they’re all making decent to great money, but they’ll see crazy signing bonuses at hospitals in unappealing areas versus very noncompetitive offers in areas like Denver where quality of life can be very high for high earners. And I mean, I get it. But it doesn’t mean I have to like it!

            2. Former Retail Manager*

              This is sooo surprising to me, but I guess it shouldn’t be.

              I’ve heard something similar about private schools vs. public schools. In my area is can be $20k a per year or more less to do the exact same job at a private school because the assumption is that the pay cut is worth avoiding much of the trouble that teachers have in public schools along with the prestige of being able to say you work at Hoity Toity Private School.

          2. saminrva*

            I work at a private university and worked at another before I came here and yeah, it’s pretty common for people in my field to do better on the salary number at public institutions. However, make sure you’re considering the benefits package too, especially when you’re coming from outside academia. There are often generous retirement matches, wellness programs (free gym maybe?), more days off, etc. than jobs in other sectors. And I have always gotten cost-of-living increases every year at both jobs (definitely less common in public institutions). I don’t know if this applies to your situation and I’m guessing those things probably won’t make up a $25K difference, but it’s at least something to think about. If it’s not right for you though, there will be other fish in the sea – good luck!

    2. fposte*

      The short answer is you can’t ever be sure you made the right choice; tolerance of ambiguity is the skill us risk-averse people need but develop very slowly.

      But I think you can be reasonably sure you’re making a *good* choice, and that’s a better goal. The reason this feels like such a quandary is that it would be okay to make either choice–and you’d probably be fine either way.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        That’s a really helpful reframing, fposte. Thank you. It’s a good choice, and that might need to be enough.

      3. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

        +1 to what oldfashionedlovesong and Reba said. This is going into my long-term memory file under “helpful advice when a decision makes you want to hyperventilate.” Sometimes it’s impossible to be *right* but *good* is just fine.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Are you sure about the predictions of your lifestyle? I lived in New York City (one of the cities with the highest cost of living, obv) making $42,000 and I lived alone (granted, in a studio) and wasn’t exactly eating ramen.

      You say that this is the type of work you want to do which makes me think it’s a career change–what is the salary range for this new work? Often the less stressful, more gratifying work pays less and you just have to decide if it’s worth it to you.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Hmm, I may be slightly overestimating what it takes to live simply but comfortably with room for savings? But as I said I’m originally from the state this job offer is in, albeit a different region (which is maybe 15% more expensive than the job offer region). So I have a pretty up-to-date idea of what it takes to live there. I lived on about 45K there before I took my current job. I had a roommate, a cheap bus commute, health insurance through my parents (thanks Affordable Care Act!), and I basically made ends meet without building up savings, being able to afford travel, etc. Which was fine, even great, as a new grad student! But it’s not the lifestyle I want to live long term. My parents, who live the textbook definition of simple but comfortable lives, are getting older and it’s not fair to ask them to go back to the kind of life where they have to – or even just feel like they have to – back me up with grocery money or whatever.

        Sorry for the lack of specificity – it’s not a career change, it’s a different focus in the same field. Current job = vanilla teapots, job offer = chocolate teapots. My passion is chocolate, so even though I’m good at vanilla, I don’t particularly care about it or feel invested in it. Chocolate shouldn’t pay less, and it’s definitely not less stressful, it’s probably more stressful, although infinitely more gratifying.

    4. Sophie Winston*

      I also wonder whether the job is actually lower level than you think it is. That is such a big drop.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        It is definitely not a promotion. It’s a lateral to slightly downward lateral move, and I knew that going in. This area is very competitive. I wouldn’t be offered my current job in this area; it would go to someone like my current boss, with ten years more experience than I have.
        For a little background though: I knew because of the competition I’ve described, that I’d be taking a pay cut to go home. And I was prepared for some degree of that. During the interview process I was told by the hiring person that she expected me to come in somewhere around 60K. It wasn’t until I got the offer that she was like “Oh, and it’s actually going to be 50K, and I can’t negotiate that any further because I already fought it at 47K.” So I’m having to recalibrate my expectations even beyond what I’d previously thought, and while 60K would have been a big chunk, it wouldn’t have felt like quite the hit that 50K does.

        1. AnonAnalyst*

          Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get this job offer? Were you searching for just a few months, or have you been trying for years to get back to your home state?

          Put differently, are you reasonably confident that you will get another job offer in a time frame that will be acceptable to you, or was it pretty hard fought to even get this one response?

          1. oldfashionedlovesong*

            Good question. I started thinking about moving back about a year into my current job, so 1.5 years ago. But I wouldn’t say I went all-in with the job hunt. I was very selective, partially because like many of us, I can’t take time out of work to do interviews for just-okay roles, and partially because it’s kind of a niche field, it’s not really work that’s happening everywhere so sometimes there’s just nothing available for weeks at a time.

            I’ve had quite a few first interviews, even second and third (they love multiple interviews in this field!) but this is the first actual letter-in-hand offer I’ve received. As I mentioned to Alison below I do have another interview coming up next Tuesday that is more promising salary-wise (i.e. lateral movement) and a definite promotion academically and professionally. I am prepping hard for that!

            1. AnonAnalyst*

              Best of luck with the interview next week!

              I can relate to this one because I’m looking to move closer to my home state this spring, although I think I’m just going to take the plunge and move with or without a job lined up. It’s tough to hold out when you really want to relocate, but it sounds like there is probably something better out there for you!

    5. insert name*

      I did basically the same thing you are talking about and I am SO HAPPY. Moved from LCOL area/higher pay to HCOL area/lower pay to work at a prestigious university. I love it. No regrets. Yeah, I pay more for a studio than I used to for a huge apartment but it’s so worth it. I used to spend a lot of money getting *out* of LCOL area to actual cities…you may find that that’s a non-essential that goes away.

      Do you have debt? Dependents? If the answers to those questions are no, then I say seriously think about it.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Keep in mind that this isn’t the only possible job offer you could ever get in your home state. This isn’t a choice between move back or don’t move back. It’s just a choice between this particular offer or your current situation.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Thanks Alison, that’s definitely true! I think because I want to move back so badly, there’s this feeling like I’m turning down a lifeline. But if I remove emotion from the equation, that’s not actually true. There will be other offers, maybe not today or next Monday, but there will be. I’m actually interviewing (second round) for another job back home next week, so it’s not like I don’t have options. In the meantime, even if I’m unhappy, I do have a secure job. I think I’m struggling with the psychological aspect of it more than anything.

    7. Language Lover*

      I feel you. I’m facing a similar, yet opposite, dilemma.

      I love where I live. It’s a big city with a lot of great restaurants and culture. I have a good living situation with cheap rent. It could change at some point but that’s not something I can see happening in the immediate future.

      Yet, I have an opportunity to interview for a job that has some benefits I long for. It’s slightly higher pay in a lower COL area but that’s almost a wash since I have a good living situation with cheap rent for my area right now. But it’d put me back on a school calendar year with guaranteed paid off time during a winter break, spring break, maybe fall break and most, if not all, of the summer break. (Summer school pays more, I think but I’d really hope to not work during that time.)

      The whole “Is it worth it?” is a hard thing to wrestle with. I’ve done the move before when I was first starting out in order to try to get back where I am. And, in theory, I could do it again once I have my foot in the door but it’s all about the pros and cons of certain benefits.

    8. Gene*

      I took a 30% pay cut to move from the SF Bay Area to north of Seattle and never looked back. There, even with an excellent salary (~$80k in 1988), we were on the list for subsidized housing. Up here, on about $50k, bought a house on a quarter acre corner lot in a decent neighborhood. If you could maintain a similar lifestyle in the new place on the new salary, do it.

      Happiness beats money, so long as you have enough to live on. At least in my book.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I still agree with you though, Gene. And I do think it has some bearing in all of this.

          It struck me that you, OP, are not jumping up and down happy here. Just the opposite, you are questioning if you want this. That to me is very telling right there.

          As I read through what you had to say my gut reaction was hold out for something better than this. Just my opinion, though.

          Life decisions, these decisions that change the direction of our lives, are really tough. I find it helpful to look back at other times when I made a life decision and it was successful. One of the thing I think about is my decision to move up here and marry my husband. I did not have nagging doubts. Any questions I had, I would land on “I will do what it takes to make it work out.” See, part of the decision is the determination to make it work. I am not seeing that here in your posts, you’re not there yet. Hold out for that job, where you think to yourself that you have a good chance of being successful and any doubts you have help you to build up your determination to make it all work out.

    9. Chaordic One*

      If I were you I’d stay put for now and keep looking in the home state you dearly miss.

      I really loved living in Los Angeles, but after 16 years I was priced out. When I lived there I really couldn’t afford to avail myself of very much of the art and culture. I’ve since held a series of jobs that offered both higher pay and a lower cost of living than what I experienced in L.A.

      I’ve been able to go on several vacations to L.A. and have since attended some of the concerts that I couldn’t afford to go to when I actually lived there. I also have a better financial cushion now.

  50. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

    I mentioned on the salary post that I’d be happy to answer questions about editing, and publishing in general, here in the open thread…so here I am! I’ll try my best to pop in a few times this afternoon, as long as work doesn’t get too hectic.

    1. ZVA*

      If you’re up for it, I’d be curious to hear how you started out in editing/publishing—what your early roles in the industry were like, and whether this was the kind of job you’d always wanted, or an industry you’d always wanted to work in? (And, if so, how the actual experience compared to what you might have imagined?)

      I ask because I’ve loved to read all my life (it’s probably the thing I’ve spent the most time doing since the age of about 2 1/2—I kid you not!) and, while I’ve never seriously considered working in publishing, I’ve always wondered—given my interests—whether or not it might be a good fit for me… (I’m 26 now and I don’t think I’ll be in my current career [which is publishing-adjacent] forever, so I may be looking to make a switch several years down the road.) So I’d love to hear how you entered into the publishing world, what your early experiences were like—and maybe if there are particular traits or skills you think one needs to be successful in/enjoy that type of work?

      1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

        I half-stumbled into this–I knew I wanted to be in publishing, and thought I wanted to be in editorial, but didn’t know what that entailed. I was lucky enough to interview at the exact right time (the early 2000s were good for getting into publishing, and the division that had an opening was perfect for me). But I had no idea of the entire scope of the job–like a lot of people, I assumed you just read all day. There’s a ton of business and marketing know-how needed, but more than that, you really have to be willing to learn on the job. Editing is absolutely a “learn by doing” kind of skill.

        As an editorial assistant, you do a ton of reading for your boss (es) and this is where it’s important to not only have taste, but to understand the market and what a book’s audience is looking for. You’re the first reader for most things, so your opinion really matters. You also do all the necessary but smaller details for your boss’s books to get them from manuscript to book. Once you start acquiring books of your own, you get more into the project management portion, where you’re not only editing, but also discussing cover art, marketing copy and plans, sales numbers, etc.

        It’s definitely an industry where being willing to pitch in is not only expected, but needed. It can be frustrating, I’m sure, to work on a lot of things that don’t seem book-related (you’d probably be surprised how much data entry there is!) but it’s all necessary to make it work. And while this isn’t true across the board, I definitely saw my friend and I advancing because we were willing to take on opportunities above and beyond our job descriptions.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I found a job listing for this at Mediabistro (Anne Mini, on her sadly defunct writing blog, calls them Millicents, as in “You don’t want to piss off Millicent with your silly query on Monday morning as she has just burned her lip on her latte and will delete you in half a second”). But I don’t think I can afford to move to New York. :(

      2. Weeeeeeeeeeeee*

        Editor here:

        What do you think about switching markets when changing jobs? Most of my background is in medical editing, but my current role has shifted more into project management and rewriting. I’d like to make a switch, but would other types of publishing even consider someone who’s experience is all niche editing?

        1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

          I think a lot of publishing is “niche” editing, when it gets right down to it, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. You might want to concentrate on houses/imprints that do a lot of non-fiction, as it might make it easier to translate your experience. And make sure your resume really emphasizes what you’ve been doing lately.

          1. Aunt Vixen*

            This is basically in line with my question, so I’m glad Weeeetc. chimed in earlier. My job description claims I am a technical editor, but in reality I do a lot of actualfax editing as well. I’ve thought for a while about trying to shift to a publisher rather than where I am (the very small publishing department of a grant-making organization, shining up grantees’ deliverables for publication), but for sure I’ve been getting the impression that non-fiction is a safer place for me than fiction – not that I don’t have taste :-), but I definitely think my editing style has been well focused in that direction and I might not be as useful in fiction outside the copy editing area.

            Mind you then I’d also hope for an opportunity where I didn’t have to move to New York or could in fact work from home some significant percentage of the time. And also make good money and have good benefits. You know, the usual. :-)

    2. Biff*

      You couldn’t have come at a better time. Last week I got a phone call from a major editor at a sci-fi/fantasy publishing house about my sci-fi story. It was a great phone call (loved the characters/writing), but the editor wanted me to make some major revisions and then resubmit. I made some of them, because they were good ideas, but I didn’t feel like I could make the key change the editor requested and I said so. I just felt like it would gut the adventure and KILL the second book I”ve already started writing. I did tie up the loose end, however, to make sure that didn’t look like an enticing change in the future.

      Is there anyway to leverage this phone call to get an agent on board?

      1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

        If you’ve queried agents about this book already, I would follow up with this information. I don’t know that I would get into the details, but maybe say that “editor at such-and-such house expressed interest in my work”. Make it clear that you don’t have an offer or anything like that (you don’t want to misrepresent), but knowing that there’s interest might get an agent to move you to the top of the pile.

        I wouldn’t necessarily use the information in new queries, just because I can’t think of a way to say it that doesn’t imply either a) that you want to sign with this editor (in which case, you run the risk it’s someone the agent you’re querying doesn’t want to work with ) or b) that you don’t take revisions well (which is likely not true! but they’re dealing with limited information here).

        That said, if you sign with an agent, they’re going to want to know which editors have seen it and what their feedback was, so you don’t duplicate queries.

        1. Biff*

          I specifically mentioned it in one query, where I felt that the agent would understand why I didn’t want to make the change — it was something the agent herself was passionate about. But yeah, I felt really awkward trying to put it into queries where that wasn’t a conversational way to mention it. I suspected it was a double-edged sword, as you say. It might bump me to the top, or it might banish me to the roundfile. I totally get that.

          Thank you for the input, even if it did just confirm my suspicions. I hope you get more interesting questions as the day progresses!

    3. smtech*

      If you don’t mind, I ‘d love to hear your answers to the questions below.

      Aside from what you mentioned below about there being a lot of business development/project management work, what is something you do that most people wouldn’t expect?
      How long does the publishing process typically take, from identifying a book you want to it actually being sold in store? Are you involved at every step?
      How often are you publishing existing authors vs new ones?
      Is it true that most new authors don’t out-earn their advances?
      What’s the weirdest thing you’ve seen – whether it was a book that didn’t work out, an author/agent demanding something crazy, or something else?

      1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

        Great questions!
        I think most people wouldn’t expect how little reading/editing is done at your desk. Most of that is in your “Free” time–the work day is spent on all the other details that make a book a book.

        Length of time from acquisition to publication can really vary. I’d say anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of years. Anything under six months is usually considered a “crash” book, because you’re typically more on a 9 mo to a year schedule. But it depends what kind of work you do–a lot of celebrity books and other timely non-fiction is on a much shorter schedule. And yup, every step is signed off on by the editor–cover, copy, marketing/publicity plans, etc. There are various teams responsible for the creation of different aspects, but the buck stops with the editor. And of course, every book is at different place in its schedule, so you’re keeping a lot of balls in the air.

        I’d say my current list is about 50/50, but I know other editors who only work with long-established authors and some who work almost entirely with debuts or one-offs. Again, it depends the kinds of books you work on.

        Most authors don’t earn out, period. I think it’s something like 70% of books don’t earn out their advances. Part of this is the nature of a consumer-based business; part of it is over-paying on the part of the publisher. Not over-paying in the sense that people are getting millions. But in a business-sense–so if you pay someone $15,000 for a book you’re pretty sure will only earn $5000, that author hasn’t made very much money, but it’s still a loss.

        Weirdest…hmm, I’ll have to think about that one and get back to you!

        1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

          Oh boy, just remembered my craziest editing experience–I once had someone close to an author (let’s call him Bob) try to steal the author’s book. As in, filed a copyright first under his name, then under both their names, and claim they wrote it together. They very much did not. We had to send certified letters detailing every department’s date stamped interactions with Actual Author in order to prove Bob had nothing to do with the writing of the book. It was wild.

    4. Emmie*

      Thank you for volunteering! If you are able, I’d love to hear your opinion. I’d like to start writing and being published in articles, and reputable blogs. I’d like to eventually build my reputation to be an expert that’s called upon to make meaningful public comments about my field, or volunteer service. How should I do this?

      1. Senior Editor (book publishing)*

        I think it depends a bit on the field, but I would write up a few sample pieces and start pitching yourself to outlets you’d like to write for. You might also try publishing on medium.com, or another platform like that which allows users to post. If there are organizations in your field that have newsletters and things like that, pitch them an idea for a guest column. The first thing to do is to make sure you’ve got a great reputation in what you do. Then, with a few polished pieces under your belt, you’ll start to make inroads. You can also start your own blog, though developing a readership can take time.

        Just remember that developing a writing career can take even longer (and include more rejection) than a job search, so don’t get discouraged!

        1. Emmie*

          Thank you VERY much, Senior Editor. I really appreciate your time and advice – especially about my doing well in my field, places to pitch, and being close friends with rejection.

    5. Alexa D.*

      What is it like in an acquisitions meeting? ie: what sort of things do you talk about when it comes to buying a book vs. not buying a book–what usually tips the scales against vs. for? Do you have any interesting/shareable stories from that stage of the process? (I am a hopefully-soon-to-be-debut author at the acquisitions stage who is very nervous haha)

      And just generally: how do you approach submissions coming from various agents? Are some “drop everything and read” agents vs. other agents who you don’t know as well? We authors have a “conspiracy” that certain agents MUST warrant “drop everything and read” given the speediness of deals for some agents vs. others…

      Thanks for answering questions!

  51. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    A Good Thing happened this week! I stepped in last minute for an event, and my boss praised me for it. This may lead to more events in the future.

    What Good Things happened to everyone this week?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I mentioned it in last week’s open thread, but I was given a new responsibility at work. My first week handling it has gone really well! I’ve gotten praise from supervisors and coworkers, and everyone has been really excited for me to handle this aspect of our work. It’ll look great on my resume and I’m enjoying the new challenge a lot. :)

    2. NW Mossy*

      I have a new great-grandboss as of November 1 last year, and yesterday presented to her (and my boss and grandboss) about my team as part of our performance review cycle. It was a bit of a curveball to do it over the phone because I’m stuck at home due to the snow, but the technology came off smoothly and professionally. Both boss and grandboss gave me kudos afterwards for how I did, so I’m feeling good that I made them look good too.

    3. Leatherwings*

      I spent all of last weekend freaking out that I was going to get fired from my new job. I just had this gut feeling about it. Then on Monday my boss told me I was doing really well and she’s pleased with my work.

      So this week I’m taking a breath and making a plan to manage my (unfounded) anxiety.

    4. ZVA*

      My first project for a new client I’m excited about shipped out today to arrive on Monday, a day early! I’m feeling kind of down about work/life today (not sure why; it might be PMS, honestly), but reminding myself of this recent success is helping a little.

    5. So Very Anonymous*

      I had an excellent meeting with someone I’m going to be co-authoring an article with. I’ve been struggling with what to do about a longer-term collaboration with someone else that’s gone sour due to significant lack of clarity about roles. I was able to be much clearer about roles and strengths etc. with co-author as a result, in a way that felt positive and productive, and I feel like this joint project will be so much stronger for it. Plus, if everything works out, a nice concrete product that will help me move forward careerwise.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I created a spreadsheet for the first project I’m managing in my new job (and first project I’m managing ever) with tabs for statuses, action items, the project plan, etc. The client loved it and told me so in an email he copied my boss on. :)

    7. zora*

      I got my peer eval forms from coworkers from my review, and none of them said I am a horrible person and suck at my job!! In fact, they were mostly very positive, and even the “could improve” suggestions weren’t really negative, just additional things they think I could take on. Which is totally understandable, since I’m still relatively new, and the position is, too, so there is still a lot of room for sorting out my full responsibilities.

      WHEW, I’ve been having major anxiety about the review since they started the process months ago, and kept trying to talk myself down, but it was really hard. I still haven’t gotten my supervisor’s review, but I think it will be pretty close to what everyone else has said, so I’m definitely feeling a little better about the new job/my competance as an adult in general.

    8. copy run start*

      Got a promotion! It’ll get me right into the department I want to be in, learning exactly what I want to learn! Plus a bit more money in my pocket, which will help with my debt-reduction goals for 2017. (bye-bye car note!)

      I am 100% excited and 100% terrified.

  52. Tomato Frog*

    Somehow managed to spend 40 minutes sitting on a bus without realizing the seat was wet. I got up and both my coat and my jeans and had been soaked through. I think (hope?) it was just regular water mixed with your run-of-the-mill bus seat filth. It smelled like old sweat and general unwashedness. I went home to change because I am not one of those brilliant people who keep a spare pair of pants at the office.

    As an aside, I have always hated those upholstered bus seats for exactly this reason — you can’t tell by looking if they’re wet! I used to always check them before I sat down but I’ve gotten lax. :(

    I hope everyone else’s morning has gone better than mine!

  53. Adnan*

    I wrote in an open thread couple of weeks ago about my co-worker Mark leaving hid client’s annual report in a mess and our boss Jane making me drop everything to redo Mark’s report from scratch. Mark came back from vacation and I told him what had happened. He insisted that the report was completed before he left. I opened the version he had done and compared it line by line to the one I had redone from scratch. And he finally accepted how bad his work was. I do not know if boss Jane spoke to him about accountability. But Mark seems like a totally different person now. His monthly reports were done well and submitted a day before the deadline. We were talking yesterday and he agreed that prioritizing and time management results in better quality work. I hope he continues this behaviour and sets a good example to our new hires.

    1. Myrin*

      I remember your situation from when you first wrote in about it – what a surprising but absolutely positive outcome, yay! :D

    2. Biff*

      I wonder… did he ever see a ‘good’ report until now? Maybe he was meeting the very low bar someone original sent by giving him a bad report as an example. It sounds like all he needed was info.

  54. Myrin*

    Something I find really annoying is when people who have no idea about how a specific job/position works or what it entails leave snide comments about it how well or not (in their opinion) someone does at that job. I was reminded of that when I randomly read something online today along the lines of “Isn’t it amazing how the ridiculously incompetent people of [organisation] pretend to be super good at what they’re doing, haha!”. I personally probably don’t know much more about [organisation] than the person who wrote this and I’m not in any way invested in it either way but I do know that even just objectively, they have a very challenging job dealing with somewhat sensitive matters where it’s important they try to please everyone which is extra hard because they’re somewhat in the public eye and everyone can easily search for everyone of their failings. I don’t know, I just wish people would be less know-it-all sometimes and not let their emotions – because this comment clearly stemmed from an emotional reaction to [matters organisation deals with] – allow them to speak harshly about things they probably don’t actually know too much about. Do you guys run into this sometimes as well?

    1. AnonEMoose*

      Not so much at my paid job, but I run into this All.The.Time when it comes to the science fiction convention I volunteer for. It’s actually one of the hardest things to deal with – literally no matter what we do (or don’t do), someone is going to be upset about it and critical of it. Plus, people are really quick to assume a malicious motivation for whatever it was we did. It can get pretty discouraging.

      I do know that part of it is, people don’t know what they don’t know – they’re not aware of all of the information, or they don’t understand that, just because we didn’t make the decision they wanted, it doesn’t mean we didn’t listen to them or that they didn’t have a valid point. But, sometimes, there are other valid points, or we disagree about what the priorities are.

      1. Gene*

        “I wasn’t able to get my book signed because you scheduled the panel I HAD to attend at the same time as {author} was doing his signing!!111!!!!! Why do you hate the {community} so much?”

        Been there.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          This happened to me with an exclusive meet-and-greet dinner with a very famous guest*, that I had actually paid for. By the time I got out of my panel, the dinner was almost over. I made it just in time to scarf some leftovers and talk to him for about two seconds.

          Fortunately, I beat everybody else to his table for a picture later and had a very nice chat with him and his wife. :) In hindsight, I would have left the panel early.

          *It was Ernie Hudson, and he’s a total sweetheart.

        2. AnonEMoose*

          Yep – that’s very familiar. Along with “I never go to this thing, why is it part of the convention?” (Maybe all of the other people in there escaped your attention somehow???)

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      I work for the IRS…so YES!!! The average member of the general public knows very little about how the organization works or what is expected of employees so they make all sorts of generalizations and assumptions. Needless to say, emotional reactions are a big part of it. If you’re dealing with the IRS, it probably isn’t a good thing, which understandably stresses people out and brings out their worst self.

    3. Sunshine Brite*

      Yes. All the time, it’s so frustrating when they usually don’t have the same considerations or standards they have to move under.

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      Yeah, no matter what you do sometimes, it’s impossible to satisfy everyone. Last week there was a huge snowstorm here, and my daughter got a sick day. Between my husband and I we:

      – Each received an email the night before saying they were keeping an eye on the weather
      – Each received an email around 5 the next morning saying there was no school
      – Each got a phone call from an automated system saying there was no school (my phone was still on silent, but my husband’s ring tone of “Tequila” ripped through the house around 5:10 AM)
      – He got a text notification that there was no school (Homer Simpson singing the Meow Mix song, around 5:15 AM)
      – I got an email from the before/after care program at the school saying there was no school that day.

      So between the 2 of us, we were told twice the night before that it might be a snow day, and 6 times the day of that it was a snow day. Most of my friends with kids in the district got similar notifications — or more, because if you have kids at different schools, then everything is doubled. So there was grumbling about it on Facebook. I detailed all the ways that we were notified that it was a snow day, and then pointed out that even with all that, there was still going to be at least one idiot who had no idea that it was a snow day, and complain about the communication from the school district.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      I work for a big university, so basically every group gets this from every angle. The faculty think they know how the administration should be run, the administration thinks they know how the academic side should be run, students think they know how EVERYTHING should be run, and EVERYONE thinks they know how students should experience the university. Not to mention the tensions between leadership and staff within departments and divisions. There’s a real lack of humility on my campus, which is really devastating to students, staff and faculty alike.

      Having worked directly with senior leadership (though at a mid-level position myself) has really opened my eyes to how to give effective feedback. Believe it or not, snide comments and general grousing are not particularly useful! And neither is assuming that your leadership are personally endeavoring on the daily to ruin your life! I’ve improved a lot at perspective-taking, and being curious and humble when I suspect the leaders in my area don’t have the same information or perspective as me, and it’s been so great both for my professional efficacy, and for my general mood and satisfaction at work. Plus it helps give me good standing to encourage some empathy and curiosity from others for our partners. (Students and faculty are also not personally endeavoring to ruin our lives on the daily!)

    6. A Teacher*

      High School Teacher. Totally understand. Lots of comments about how “easy teaching is” and how all I do is babysit-or brainwash kids. I think most professions have something about them that is challenging, it would be nice if people would acknowledge that.

      2. Rob Lowe can't read*

        I came here to say exactly this! I teach ESL, and people are like, “Just teach them English! And then they will know English!” Okay, you do it then.

    7. Gene*

      I’ve worked in government since I graduated high school while Nixon was President.

      I believe 90% of taxpayers think they know how to do any public servant’s job better than the public servant does. Doesn’t matter the job.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have to say if the public was aware of the incredible amount of needless complexity in government there would be a nationwide outcry. And there would be another outcry when the public found out about the backlog of work because there are not enough people to keep up with those regs that are multiplying like bunnies. Not mentioning any names but I heard of departments that have DECADES of work in boxes that has yet to be processed. There are just not enough people to do the amount of work and in the way the regs call for.

      2. Myrin*

        Yeah, the organisation in question is actually government-adjacent so there are times where every little fart they let loose is under public scrutiny. And we’re in Germany, where people are always moaning about bureaucracy anyway so government agencies have it especially bad in this regard.

  55. Tris Prior*

    This is probably one of those “your workplace sucks and isn’t going to change” things but I thought I’d ask the advice of the AAM commentariat anyway:

    Boyfriend appears to be experiencing a Mean Girls problem at work. He and his team were moved into an open-plan room with a door that shuts. Since then, his co-workers – all middle-aged suburban women – are constantly chattering, laughing, even singing at their desk. It sounds as though they do nearly no work. Headphones are permitted but you’re only allowed to have one earbud in (presumably so you can hear if someone asks you something). So he can’t tune out all of the noise.

    He has asked them many times, as nicely as possible, to please stop because he’s having a hard time concentrating. Their response is to laugh at him and do whatever it is more loudly.

    He now appears to be the team scapegoat because he mentioned this to his boss (who said “I’ll talk to them” but nothing has changed), who decided the solution was to remove the room’s door. Now all his co-workers are pissed at him because they lost their privacy to goof off unseen, even though Boyfriend never asked management to get rid of the door. He just wanted the constant loud noise to stop. Which, it hasn’t; now the noise just spills over into the rest of the office but no one seems to care.

    Being moved isn’t an option. His manager said he understands and that Boyfriend is welcome to come into his office and “blow off steam” whenever he needs to. I sort of see this as a failure to manage; if one’s team is being so loud that one team member cannot work, I think the manager needs to step in. But, well, he can’t force his manager to manage.

    They also are spending a lot of time making fun of a new co-worker behind her back. Boyfriend says New Co-Worker is completely unaware that this is going on so he wonders if he should say something about that too or just stay out of it.

    Boyfriend has an indirect supervisor who is female. I told him that it might be worth going to her and using the words….. well, not “mean girls” exactly, but maybe “middle school herd mentality?” I mean, most of us women have been through this sort of thing in our own lives; I feel like a female manager might “get it” more than a dude.

    I’m curious what you all would do in a situation like this? I basically told him ignore, do not engage, do not lose your cool, step outside for some air if the noise gets really bad and you think you’re going to lose your shit. And also keep letting management know when it gets bad, with a focus on how it affects productivity. Like, if he has to step in because these women are not doing any work and a deadline’s going to be missed. Any other thoughts?

    He is job hunting; has been for a couple of years now, but no joy. :(

    1. Biff*

      Wow. That sounds waaaaaay out of control. I’m so sorry he’s dealing with this. I have no suggestions. I agree that it sounds like “sucks/won’t change.”

    2. fposte*

      Well, the noise would have bugged me too, but the problem is that there was an established culture that the business is okay with, and your boyfriend doesn’t fit well with it. It’s kind of like that post about the new co-worker who wanted no music allowed in the open plan space when that was the norm.

      I haven’t heard what specifically they’re saying to him, but I sure wouldn’t go around my regular manager to complain about mean girls; it’s not a complaint worth escalating and it has a high chance of pissing off the actual manager. Unless those co-workers are blocking his work in some specific way and his manager has failed to act, I’d stick with his manager or sucking it up as the choices.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I wish I could say it could change, but probably won’t. Thankfully I wasn’t in this department, but there was a similar situation where I used to work. They were a very tight, friendly group, their boss was more like their friend, and they were quite noisy. Unfortunately, one of the team died in a very tragic circumstance, and her position needed to be filled. Whoever would go in there would be screwed, because they were all close friends. That’s what happened. One person was in tears during training, didn’t even make it out of training before she quit. I saw her crying in the lunchroom and mentioned to her boss, who didn’t do anything. Then, the next one came in, and she lasted a few years, and was picked on and tattled on constantly, she had to go to HR because her boss wouldn’t even listen. The last one that came in was a tough cookie and doesn’t take any crap so she’s still here. They still are loud and talk about her, sometimes not even quietly, but she doesn’t care and has actually been promoted. Not because her boss recommended it, she goes with the “middle school herd”, but because she took the necessary classes and training and a position above her was open. I think your advise is spot on to ignore, do not engage, do not lose your cool, and step outside. If his boss brings up any little thing that’s negative, such as, a minor mistake or whatever, he could come back and say that the current environment makes it difficult for full concentration.

    4. Awkward Interviewee*

      Can he get away with noise-cancelling headphones in both ears? I know you said that they’re only allowed to have one earbud in, but since management seems most concerned about productivity, he could frame it as a productivity tool?

      1. Tris Prior*

        Maybe! Certainly worth asking. His manager acknowledges it’s a problem, just won’t do anything about it, so maybe this is a solution.

    5. Angelinha*

      I would be careful about framing this as something that a woman needs to get involved in or solve. And I would also suggest your boyfriend should not call a group of women “mean girls” or “middle schoolers” no matter how much he thinks it fits the situation.

      1. Tris Prior*

        Yeah, I wasn’t too sure about that part so thanks for confirming my fears. I considered that because, honestly, Boyfriend didn’t even recognize their behavior as bullying until I used that word, when I was talking this over with him. (And also because his manager isn’t managing, but getting someone else involved may not have the desired result, I realize.)

        I left out a lot of details but their words and actions are such a clear match to all the stuff that I and many of my female friends endured in school. My heart really does break for the co-worker who’s being mocked behind her back.

    6. Dr. KMnO4*

      My personal feelings about the New Co-Worker situation is that your boyfriend should at least once make his feelings known that it’s not cool to be making fun of her behind her back. That said, I realize it’s not an easy thing to do and it may come with consequences. I’ve done it and what I got was push-back on why that person (supposedly) deserved it, not “You’re right, we shouldn’t be doing that”. It also lead to a cooling-off of an otherwise okay relationship. When the relationship isn’t great to begin with, like your boyfriend’s situation, it may not be worth it to say something to the rude coworkers. In his place I probably wouldn’t say anything to the New Co-Worker because then he’s putting himself square in the middle of a conflict between the rude women and the new woman.

      Otherwise your advice to ignore, not engage, etc. is what I would do and what I would keep recommending.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        The best he can do with New Hire is be fair to her and go about his work day. If she says anything to him, he can just say, “It is what you see. Just focus on the work itself.”

    7. Anon13*

      I don’t mean this to sound harsh, but I think encouraging him to talk to the female manager is a really bad idea. I am a woman and I have not experienced anything similar to what you are describing. I have, however, experienced it with a group of men. I would actually be less likely to take your boyfriend seriously if I got the impression that he was talking to me about it because I’m a woman or if he was blaming this behavior on his colleagues’ gender.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I watched a group of men do this to a woman and they actually ran her off the job. I spoke up, but it made no difference because their dick of a boss wouldn’t do anything. They made fun of her weight, her clothes, and her name, and I KNOW it was because they didn’t want a woman doing the job they were doing. So yeah, it’s not a strictly female thing.

  56. Yamikuronue*

    This is probably better served by a wider audience than asking Alison directly:

    We’re moving to a new building in about a month, and it’ll have a gym, locker room, and showers. I haven’t had a situation like that since high school; I’ve always worked out in my apartment complex’s gym, because it’s free. What’s the etiquette around this sort of situation? Like, would I bring workout clothes, change, work out for half an hour, shower, change back, get back to work? Should I do it at the beginning or end of the day so I only have to change once? Is it weird to be showering at work? Apparently people who aren’t me talk to each other in the restroom — do you talk to people in the showers? Halp!

    1. Michele*

      My building got rid of the gym, but we still have the locker rooms with showers (individual stalls). It is a nice benefit, and I think you are over stressing. Many of us like to run or walk during lunch, and some people use the facilities if they bike more than a couple miles to work. You might want to ask if there are rules around locker use, such as not being able to keep things in there overnight. I have my own office, so to make space for others, I keep my stuff in there when I am not running or in the locker room.

      Some people are comfortable carrying on conversations and walking around naked. Others want total privacy and silence. I am somewhere in between. If you don’t like to talk, people will pick up on that pretty quickly, or you can just say something. It isn’t the first time they have been in the locker room, they will understand.

    2. Minerva*

      I’ve used a work gym and locker room in the past and have used it both before and in the middle of the work day. When I would work out on my lunch hour there would always be several people in the gym. I liked doing something physical in the middle of my desk-job day; it was a nice break.

      I don’t love the idea of being unclothed in front of my boss, so I’d usually get changed in the bathroom or the shower stall after I showered. Some people are less prudish and walk around naked…which is kind of awkward when they’re people you work with, but whatever.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      You can do any of the things you suggested! You’ll have to try the gym out at all times of day to make your decision. I’ve found that sometimes the morning is more crowded, and the showers are all full so it would make me late if I waited. Mostly, I used them after work so I could just shower at home.

    5. Sunflower*

      I think my post is in moderation? I never post links so I’m not sure lol. but there was an entire ask the readers thread about this on AAM with over 300 comments! just search ‘locker room’ and it should be the first result

  57. Ayla K*

    I’ve needed this open thread all week. My company just had huge layoffs, including my wonderful manager. I’ll basically be taking on her job, as well as half the job of someone else in our department who got laid off, and also assisting another department that had massive cuts.

    I’ve never gone through a layoff before and I’m grateful I was spared, but I’m super stressed out. Does anyone have any advice on what I can anticipate or prep for? War stories (preferably with happy endings)?

    Also, thinking ahead, how can I talk about this on a resume (taking on my manager’s job duties in addition to my own, with only 6 months experience) without mentioning the word ‘layoff’? And at what point is it appropriate to talk with my new manager about a salary increase, given the circumstances?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Who will be supervising you once your manager is gone? Talk to THAT person about a salary increase right now! Your current manager will be looped if necessary.

      Can you talk to your manager about a transition plan? I’m sure she’s devastated about being laid off, so come to the table with a can-do attitude and compassion for her. A formal meeting would be best.

      1. Ayla K*

        Unfortunately, she’s already gone. I’m working with her former manager on a training plan, since I’ll partially be supporting him in her absence.

        Is it not inappropriate/out of touch to ask my new supervisor for a salary increase when we just laid off over 10% of our employees for budget reasons?

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          It’s not inappropriate. Your duties are changing a lot and you deserve to be compensated for it. It’s just like if you were leaving the company for another, more high-profile job. You’d want a higher salary! Definitely talk to your new supervisor.

          1. Ayla K*

            How can I word that conversation so that it’s tactful and professional? All I can think of right now is “my workload just tripled and I’m already being paid below market value for my old job alone soooo…”

    2. Drew*

      Ask about shifted priorities, too. If they just laid off a bunch of people, they can’t reasonably expect the remaining people to carry on with the same workload. Find out what is considered mission critical and what you’ll have to set aside until the other stuff is under control.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        Yes, this. There are very likely things that were priorities for the people you are replacing that are no longer important to the organization. Having a discussion about what you should be focusing on is important to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Ooh this is so tough. “Survivor’s guilt” is very real for those who remain after layoffs! You might consider doing some reading about that phenomenon, even though it sounds like you’re doing a great job of moving forward.

      In my current job and previous job, there were major layoffs (including myself at my previous job!). Things to be prepared for: everyone in a tailspin, things falling through the cracks, and a big variety of Feelings (from anger, to relief, to sadness, to confusion). You will find some people who throw themselves into their work to process their feelings and become more productive. You will find even the most talented people can completely shut down and be unable to do the most basic work. In my experience, the best way to manage this is just to worry about yourself, while giving yourself and others grace to deal in their own way.

      The people who have survived the layoff process the best, in my experience, were really intentional about articulating their priorities and what they needed from others. Start talking with your boss about what you’re prioritizing (and also what you’re NOT doing), and speak up early when you have questions. Bring others into your thinking as much as you can. If you start to see gaps emerging, apologize and thank people for their patience as you figure out the right systems. People will often surprise you! And some will be jerks! You can only control yourself, but you can be very intentional about what you do and why, so that when people are jerks, you can fall back on the fact that you know what you’re supposed to be doing.

      I wish you all the best luck as you go through this process. It is really tough. But I also found that for those who were able to put their heads down and get to work, there are lots of amazing growth opportunities. I hope that you are able to find some silver linings in this tough time.

      1. Ayla K*

        Thank you so much! I definitely want to read more about this – do you (or anyone else) have resources you can share or tips on where I should start?

    4. Ayla K*

      I was just looking through archives here on AAM and couldn’t find a single post about how to renegotiate salary after a company goes through layoffs. Alison – if you see this, is there anything that would be different about that conversation with my new manager as opposed to a salary discussion during a regular performance review, or any other ‘normal’ salary discussion?

      1. Ayla K*

        I feel like it’s a weird word to have printed on a resume. I wouldn’t be opposed to talking about it in interviews, or even in a cover letter, but not on a resume.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, I see.
          You could say that you filled in temporarily or that you filled in temporarily while there was no manager.

  58. Punkin*

    For HR pros (or anyone else who can understand my missive):

    I know this horse has been flogged past the point of death, but I need some clarification on exempt time usage. I am in the USA, not in CA or MA (if that makes a difference).

    I work in a state institution of higher education. The 7 people in my department are software analysts/programmers and are (properly, as far as I can tell) classified as exempt. We earn PTO in the form of annual leave and sick leave.

    Some of us have the view that if Lucinda comes into work for an hour, then has to leave for whatever reason,
    Lucinda gets paid for the full day. Lucinda should be docked leave for only full days not worked.

    Some believe that Lucinda should submit to take leave for the 7 hours (and any partial day) that she is not in the office.

    My understanding of the law is that an exempt worker’s PAY cannot be reduced if she works for any portion of a day. Whether the worker is required to take leave for the “unworked” portion of the day is not a matter of law, since PTO is not a federal requirement. If the company/institution requires exempt workers to use PTO for partial days, that is legal. Is that correct?

    Furthermore, some of our staff routinely work extra hours while others do not (different projects & skill sets – no one outright dodging work, just some are not as experienced/relied upon as others). Would it be out of place for our supervisor to require Melba to use leave (as Melba works only the amount of hours scheduled) to cover partial days out of the office AND not require Fergusina (who often works 12+ hour days) to do the same? Would it be opening up a chance to accuse the supervisor of discrimination?

    1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      1. My understanding of the law is that an exempt worker’s PAY cannot be reduced if she works for any portion of a day. Whether the worker is required to take leave for the “unworked” portion of the day is not a matter of law, since PTO is not a federal requirement. If the company/institution requires exempt workers to use PTO for partial days, that is legal. Is that correct?

      — Yes, that is correct. I have to take my time in 15 minute increments per policy, or formally make it up, even though I am exempt and may work longer hours otherwise. This is 100% legal.

      2. Furthermore, some of our staff routinely work extra hours while others do not (different projects & skill sets – no one outright dodging work, just some are not as experienced/relied upon as others). Would it be out of place for our supervisor to require Melba to use leave (as Melba works only the amount of hours scheduled) to cover partial days out of the office AND not require Fergusina (who often works 12+ hour days) to do the same? Would it be opening up a chance to accuse the supervisor of discrimination?

      — So long as there is a bona fide reason for allowing Fergusina, you *should* be OK. One COA way to handle is, is by having a flex work policy of some sort within the same pay week (or even pay cycle, if you want to be more flexible). So, for example, Melba takes 2 hours for a doctor’s appointment on Tuesday, but stays late (or comes in early) Wednesday and Thursday to make up the time. Fergusina, on the other hand, already logged over 40 Hours by Thursday morning, so when she leaves at 3pm on Friday for a weekend away, she’s already covered. This could potentially get tricky so it’s probably good to have a written policy on this.

    2. hermit crab*

      For the first part – I am DEFINITELY not a lawyer, but my understanding of the law is the same as yours. I’m exempt and take partial days of leave all the time. For example, on Jan 2nd, a federal holiday, I did a half day so I billed four hours of regular work and four hours of holiday time. However, I think it’s totally up to your company how they want to handle that. I work in consulting where we have billable hours, so we’re all used to accounting for our time in small increments anyway. But I don’t think there’s anything preventing your company from saying that leave can only be taken in full-day increments.

    3. fposte*

      You’re right; you can’t withhold a partial day’s pay for an exempt employee.

      However, on the second question, I’m surprised there’s no state/university policy on this; we wouldn’t be able to waive the PTO requirements for an individual employee at my state university. If that’s not an issue, I’d say it was fair to do in the “You were here until midnight–don’t worry about coming in until noon” way, but not in a way where Melba has to take leave for a doctor’s appointment and Fergusina doesn’t. IOW, I’d want a defensibly tight relationship between the additional time worked and the time off; as a statie, I don’t think being a good performer enough for Fergusina to get more time off slack in general, because that’s going to bite people in the butt somewhere. (Private sector I might make a different call.)

      1. Punkin*

        Thanks for your perspective. Fergusina would be getting the consideration for time (not 1-to-1, just a “don’t bother putting leave in for the 2 hour long lunch”) during the same pay period where she worked several 14-16 hour days. It is not abusive and not held over to another pay period. It’s just “you have been here late all week – go have a sit-down lunch somewhere” or “things look ok – take off 30 minutes early if you can”.

        All but one of our team members seem to understand that there are some days where people are needed for longer than the scheduled shift. Boss is really good about making sure we get a break after crazy hours. It’s just that the one team member never does the crazy hours. But she is also the one who does not want to use leave time for her partial days (she uses full days right after they are earned). It may be a combination of a lighter workload for her than the rest of us /her lack of “I am done with this task – can I help somewhere else” initiative/local HR’s lack of clarity on the issue.

        I will look for a state/school policy. Thanks again.

  59. Worried all the time*

    I had an interview Wednesday and got a verbal “offer” at the end of it, however, this could depend on the new administration and budgets and such (its a federal job). I haven’t heard anything back yet and I don’t think my references have been called. How long should I wait before I give them a call? I know government jobs can take forever.

      1. Worried all the time*

        Yeah I plan on giving it at least that, I’ve heard of it taking months in some agencies so I am a bit concerned.

  60. Introvert in Need of Advice*

    So, I am taking over my boss’ position on an interim basis, which means I got my own office. (Yay!) The question I have is about spending time in my office. I still have my public facing desk (which is where I spent all of my time in my previous position), alongside my staffers, who I am now supervising. Sometimes I need to go into my office to deal with things that require privacy/confidentiality, but sometimes I just want to go in there to be alone (I’m super introverted). When I do, however, especially if I’m working on something that I could easily do at the public desk, I worry that my staff will feel like I’m being standoffish or withdrawn (especially since I’m now their manager). Is this just my social anxiety rearing its head, or something I need to worry about?

    I want to note that when we are busy, I am always out on the public desk. It’s when we’re quiet that I head into my office, but that’s also the time that my staff want to chat – which sometimes I want to do, but other times I just want peace and quiet.

    1. Temperance*

      Was your boss always in that office, or were they also public-facing? Are you still handling your old role as well?

      Depending on your answers, I think it makes sense to use the office full-time.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        I agree. It would drive me nuts to have to keep switching back and forth between two work spaces. For that reason if no other, I’d just use the office full time. If you keep your door open most of the time, your staff shouldn’t have a negative perception.

        1. Introvert in Need of Advice*

          Unfortunately, I don’t really have a choice on using the office full time – I have to be on the desk for at least part of the day. That’s part of my issue – most of the time when I head into the office, it’s not because I need to do specific work there, it’s just that I need some alone time to recharge.

      2. Introvert in Need of Advice*

        The job is a mix of public facing and in office work. I’m a librarian, and my old role was entirely public facing, because I was part-time. Now I’m working full-time, and I do have to handle bureaucratic management stuff, some of which I can’t do at the reference desk because of privacy concerns. Most of my work, though, can be done at either place.

        I’m technically still handling my old role, since we now only have one part-time librarian instead of two (until we can hire someone to fill my old job). If the part-timer isn’t here, I’m the librarian on duty, and I do stay at the desk if we’re busy. It’s just when we’re pretty quiet/empty that I head into the office (with the door open).

        1. Doink*

          As a fellow librarian, I think what you just described is fine. Make sure the part-timer knows that you’re available if they need you, and maybe make a point of a few minutes of friendly chat every day if you’re afraid they’ll see you as unfriendly/don’t like them.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Not a librarian, so this is just in general terms. I believe that the more a boss can be seen by her people and is actually working near her people that is hugely beneficial to the relationship between the boss and people.

      One could argue, “Oh professionalism!” and other talking points which are probably valid. But to me reality is if people see their leader working, they work harder, they are more productive and more connected to their work. It’s human nature.

      Do what you think is best. However, some groups just function better when they can see they have a working boss.

  61. Laura*

    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/cover-letter-dead/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook_org&sf50659115=1

    I don’t necessarily agree. A factor I think they miss is that a lot of people (myself included) don’t know, aren’t taught how to put together effective cover letters well (and resumes fall under that same banner of ineffeciency). It’s not exactly intuitive….

    And a lot of advice just plain is bad and full of other problematic issues that have been covered through various AAM posts.

    I mean yes digital footprint is an important subject to cover but sometimes our “should not post that” filters fail…. or were never in place at all.

    As for me, I’ll just keep my resume updated and do trial and error on the cover letters.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There have been articles proclaiming the death of the cover letter for at least a decade. Most of them written by people who don’t do a ton of hiring or have the expertise to make that proclamation (which is totally wrong), although it makes for a catchy article. You can ignore it.

  62. Curious About Archives*

    I noticed quite a few Archivist in the salary post this week and would love to hear more about your work. It’s a direction that I’ve thought about taking with my life, but haven’t been in a position to persue. Some starting questions:

    Why did you decide to go into Archives?

    Best/worst aspects?

    What is your day-to-day like?

    What was (is) your first position like (interpret however you like– first paid archivist job, internship, volunteer position, etc)?

    Thoughts on your grad program?

    Or anything else you’d like to share.

    I might not be able to post again until later today, but thanks to all replies in advance. And thanks to everyone posting in the salary thread, it’s a fascinating read!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      My one big piece of advice to people interested in Archives is this:

      SAA (Society of American Archivists) does not accredit archival degree programs. If you get an Archival Degree or a Masters in History with an Archival Focus than you will not be considered to have a terminal degree. Terminal degrees are critical to Universities when they are up for accreditation, as they are judged on how many staff have the terminal degree in their field. Therefore, I would strongly recommend getting a Masters in Library Science with a specialty in Archives, rather than a straight Archival degree.

      You also can not be hired for any job with the word “Librarian” in the title without an MLIS. So, if the job is like mine and is a “Librarian/Archivist” position, the MLIS is required.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I am happy to give my opinion on pretty much anything, but I’m afraid I’m not sure what a BLIS is.

          1. Chaordic One*

            A 4-year “Bachelor’s of Library and Information Science” degree. I’ve met a couple of people with them working in public libraries. Probably not as impressive as an MLIS, huh?

            1. AnotherLibrarian*

              In the United States (and this may not be true elsewhere), if you have the word “Librarian” in your job title, than the job should require an MLIS by American Library Association guidelines. So, it seems to me a BLIS doesn’t really prepare you for anything.

              I would advise someone to get a general bachelors in something well rounded they are interested in and then get the Master. I’ve known librarians with undergrad degrees in everything from Physics and Accounting to Classics and Modern Dance. That diversity is part of what makes it such a wonderfully rich profession. You never know what someone studied.

              Many librarians, including myself, also have a second “academic” masters in a topic. This is particularly true in Academic Librarianship.

              Now, I don’t know how these things work in Europe where the education system is pretty different.

            2. NoTurnover*

              (I’m not technically a librarian, but I’ve spent 10+ years working closely with librarians.)

              In the US, for librarian jobs, you need an MLIS. A BLIS may help you get a job as a circulation clerk or a page (those jobs are also competitive), but it will not qualify you for librarian jobs. It’s not just “not as impressive,” not having the MLIS disqualifies you from even being in the running. Within the profession, an MLIS is a necessary starting credential–or, occasionally, another master’s or PhD in a related field.

              Now, I don’t know much about archives specifically. But my impression is similar to others on this thread–most archivist jobs are considered librarian jobs, and the library field in general is uber competitive, not especially well paid, and shrinking. The actual jobs are pretty good, it’s just getting there that’s hard (and being willing to move/make compromises to get the job).

              Sorry to not be more positive! If it’s something you’re passionate about, you should pursue it, just go in with your eyes open.

    2. Records Manager/Librarian*

      Why did you decide to go into Archives? I was interested in library work and got an assistantship working in the university archives. Enjoyed it enough to pursue it further.

      Best/worst aspects? There are no jobs. It is crazy hard to get a job in a desirable area that is full-time and permanent. And if you get one, unless you’re really lucky you will be making almost no money. And you will likely have a lot of student loans. I hate to be a downer, but this is literally the worst field to go into from a supply and demand point of view. The competition is crazy. If you are interested in archives, volunteer somewhere, but find a job that you can actually support yourself with.

      What is your day-to-day like? This varies greatly depending on what type of institution you work in and what your role is. I previously worked at the state archives where there are around 50-60 employees. Roles are very specific and unvaried. I did digitization projects. It was fine. Where I work now, I’m the only person who does what I do. I still spend too much time scanning (mindless activity) and not enough time doing intellectually engaging work.

      What was (is) your first position like (interpret however you like– first paid archivist job, internship, volunteer position, etc)? First position was grad student assistant, consisting of processing university records.

      Thoughts on your grad program? The courses were not very interesting or engaging. Everyone says you learn more from doing. My advisor gave me zero practical/useful advice. They accept as many people as possible, even though the job market is over-saturated.

      Or anything else you’d like to share. Other people might have vastly different experiences than mine, but take a look at message boards for recent grads or library school students and you will see that many people have either given up or have become increasingly depressed by the lack of opportunities in this field. I will say that I am not an entrepreneurial type, so maybe that’s on me. I would 100% tell people to consider a different field. If I could do it over I would have studied information systems or data analytics. Something tech-y where you actually have hard skills that you can put on a resume and use in a variety of industries. Some (many?) library schools are calling themselves iSchools. If you do decide to go, take all the database, web design, programming courses you can. That will serve you much better. Don’t even get me started on the uselessness of a degree in history. I have one of those too. #notbitter

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I briefly interned at a large federal archive when I was in college. It was awful; all the staff seemed to hate their jobs, which were mostly related to scanning/re-filing documents, not anything that actually challenges your brain. There are no jobs, which my supervisor made abundantly clear to me, so I lost any interest I’d had in the field.

    4. Tomato Frog*

      I know, we are disproportionately represented here and I love it!

      I’m a processing archivist at a research library, so everything I write will be from that perspective:

      Why I got into it: I have a history background, love analyzing primary materials, and have no desire to be a professor. Also I had an epiphany one day during a boring undergraduate seminar that I should become an archivist, but that’s neither here nor there.

      First position: It was an unpaid internship — really, a volunteer position that I turned into an internship. My supervisor was lovely in many ways but none of us got any training. We were told to read the processing manual and then left to do the work. The supervisor would review the finding aids we wrote and answer questions but not really get involved in the decision-making process. The funny thing is, that unpaid internship was in essence the same work I’m doing now, with a master’s and five years of experience. Definitely not something volunteers should’ve been doing with so little supervision.

      I got my next job because my supervisor thought I did good work and recommended me to a friend.

      Worst: the constant minor decision-making and judgment calls you often have to make when working on a collection. I get decision fatigue.

      Best: finding a collection that’s a diamond in the rough, and knowing that it’s only thanks to your eagle eye and careful analysis that it will actually be used by researchers rather than completely overlooked and left to rot in the stacks.

      MLIS: Back before I worked in archives, someone told me “You should go to library school. You would like it. It’s dumb.” Which about sums it up. I think it’s good to approach it with the understanding that the most important thing about it is getting the degree.

      Nonetheless, I think I got more out of my MLIS program than most people. I did UIUC’s online program, which has synchronous online classes and requires you to visit campus once a semester. They don’t have an archives concentration, but I was already working in archives so that wasn’t too important to me. Best classes I took were general coding classes, an EAD class, and cataloging (regular and rare book). All those courses continue to be useful to me. But for all that, I wouldn’t have done it if I wasn’t paying in-state tuition.

      My biggest piece of advice is, don’t go into it if you’re not willing to move for jobs. People do get lucky, but, eh, I wouldn’t take the chance.

    5. Tomato Frog*

      I know, we are disproportionately represented here and I love it!

      I’m a processing archivist at a research library, so everything I write will be from that perspective:

      Why I got into it: I have a history background, love analyzing primary materials, and have no desire to be a professor. Also I had an epiphany one day during a boring undergraduate seminar that I should become an archivist, but that’s neither here nor there.

      First position: It was an unpaid internship — really, a volunteer position that I turned into an internship. My supervisor was lovely in many ways but none of us got any training. We were told to read the processing manual and then left to do the work. The supervisor would review the finding aids we wrote and answer questions but not really get involved in the decision-making process. The funny thing is, that unpaid internship was in essence the same work I’m doing now, with a master’s and five years of experience. Definitely not something volunteers should’ve been doing with so little supervision.

      I got my next job because my supervisor thought I did good work and recommended me to a friend.

      Worst: the constant minor decision-making and judgment calls you often have to make when working on a collection. I get decision fatigue.

      Best: finding a collection that’s a diamond in the rough, and knowing that it’s only thanks to your eagle eye and careful analysis that it will actually be used by researchers rather than completely overlooked and left to rot in the stacks.

      MLIS: Back before I worked in archives, someone told me “You should go to library school. You would like it. It’s dumb.” Which about sums it up. I think it’s good to approach it with the understanding that the most important thing about it is getting the degree.

      Nonetheless, I think I got more out of my MLIS program than most people. I did UIUC’s online program, which has synchronous online classes and requires you to visit campus once a semester. They don’t have an archives concentration, but I was already working in archives so that wasn’t too important to me. Best classes I took were general coding classes, an EAD class, and cataloging (regular and rare book). All those courses continue to be useful to me. But for all that, I wouldn’t have done it if I wasn’t paying in-state tuition.

      My biggest piece of advice is, don’t go into it if you’re not willing to move for jobs. People do get lucky, but, eh, I wouldn’t take the chance.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      Having read a few of the replies, I want to add to my first comment about choosing the degree.

      Why did you decide to go into Archives? My gradschool job was in a historical collection in library school and it just stuck like glue. I should add that I am not a Archivist. I am a Librarian who works in an Archive. That means I approach things a little different then some of my colleagues.

      1st Job: Well, my first job was working in Serials for a library. My first “archivist” job was processing a large art collection and I was horrid at it. I nearly got fired, but I managed to squeeze through.

      Grad Programs: See my comment above. I stand by it. A lot of “Archival Degree” programs are not going to get you jobs, because the jobs require an MLIS, especially if they are in a Library.

      I will add that I actually learned a lot in my grad program. I sought out good professors, had hands on experiences and feel like it was really helpful to me. The most helpful part was the ethical training. How to approach the complex decisions that we deal with every day as Archivists. What do we keep? What do we get rid of? Where does the line between the need to know and the privacy of a person start and end?

      I tell every intern I’ve supervised and every student who says they want to go into a heritage field the same thing: You can be picky about where you work or you can be picky about what you do. You can not be picky about both. I moved across the country for my first job and I have never regretted it. But people who don’t have a professional job often were not willing to move and/or pay their dues.

    7. ThatLibraryChick*

      My degree was a Master’s in History with a focus in archives which, as stated loses out a lot to the librarian’s degree with archives. My grad program helped me to get an internship at the Smithsonian American History Museum Archives Center which was a super awesome experience. My first job was in the Special collections center at my grad school working more on records management but also handling special documents. My first REAL archives job was working as a contractor for the National Park Service and working on their backlog records.

      Worst aspects, as stated, no jobs because everyone is fighting for a position and low pay.
      Best aspects, working with all sorts of records and if you enjoy it, making order out of chaos.

  63. Azul*

    Happy Friday AAM hive!

    I have a question regarding how to navigate a potentially awkward situation. A little over a year ago, I applied for a position at my current company in an entirely different department. The hiring team and I really connected, our goals were aligned, and it was one of the most stress-free interviews I’ve ever had. Although I ultimately did not receive an offer, I was a finalist and the hiring manager called me directly to emphasize just how close it was between me and the person who was eventually hired. Overall, it was a great experience and we left things on good terms, with her expressing that she would keep my information on file in case anything opened up.

    Fast forward about 10 months ago, I have been hired at the same company in a different department from the first. In my current role I am responsible for a ton of training and recently my boss assigned me to do a training for the hiring manager’s department. My colleagues have already gone over to train some of her staff so from what I understand, even if she doesn’t stay for the training, she drops by to introduce herself and say hello, get things situated, etc. I am under no impression that she (or her second-in-command who was also in the interview) will actually remember me, but should I say anything or nothing? Should I be the one to broach it first, sort of like a “You may not remember me, but…” or is that too ripe for potential embarrassment if she doesn’t? Typically I would have no problem going in, doing my training, and leaving, but I would love to keep the door open there (don’t get me wrong, my job is great and I don’t have any plans to leave, but burnout is very common in this role so I’m a fan of keeping my options open and I’d like to stay at my current company, if possible). What do you all think?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Definitely talk to her! Something brief like: “Hi Jane! I’m Azul, we met when I interviewed for XXX position back in 2015. How are you?”

    2. Sadsack*

      I would say something. It would be pretty awkward not to, I think. I think starting with “You may not remember…” is fine. I doubt she’ll be embarrassed. She’ll probably say she remembers whether she does or not and welcome you to the company. You might even contact her now and tell her who you are and where you landed there, saying that you are just mentioning it in case you run into her some day.

  64. Maple*

    There were a surprising number of responses from Development professionals in the salaries thread! I’m interested in getting into development myself, and wondered if any of you are in this thread – how did you get into development? Is there specific certification or schooling that helps get you ahead? What kind of moves did you make to get to your current position?
    I have a generic humanities degree from a state school and currently work as a program coordinator at a small nonprofit, but I’ve been doing a lot of grant writing over the past year and a half now. I’m eyeing a grant manager job at a large healthcare system. But does a background in grants help with getting into more general development stuff?
    I’m especially interested to know if a Master’s in (what?) would help, or just be a waste of time better spent climbing professional ladders and networking.

    1. Grant Writer*

      You should look into Grant Professionals Association and the Association of Fundraising Professionals. I got an entry level Development Assistant job and climbed the ladder, specializing in foundation grants along the way. I also don’t have any college degree at all.

      Grant manager positions are less development and more financial. In many organizations, they actually sit within the accounting department. I don’t do grants management but I work with our grants manager on reporting.

      My advice, such as it is, is just to apply for development positions.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Agreed that Grant Manager is probably not a fundraising job (but you never know!).

        But I agree with Grant Writer that working your way up is still the way to do it, I think. I have a master’s degree, which helps me get in the door at certain kinds of places, but mostly it’s the many years of work experience that people are interested in.

        1. zora*

          years of experience, and track record of $$$ raised! Do what you can to get successful grants, or otherwise support raising revenue. The more you can put on your resume about the $xxx,xxx grant you secured, or the $xx you raised per year, the better. In many small nonprofits there are ways you can connect to or support the development folks, even if you aren’t in that position yet. talk to them about what they need and how you can help.

  65. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So I’m basically a contractor as a new lawyer, and broke a small bone in my dominant hand. I was worried about getting fired from this project since it is now harder to type and I cannot, full stop, write.

    But they’re keeping me on! And I wrote an angry complaint to local transit, because their not salting the bus stop made me slip and break that. I am asking them to salt, pay the $250 or so in out of pocket medical expenses for me, and cover my hourly rate of pay should I have to miss work due to dealing with this injury.

    I am worried about my next project though, since I can’t write. This means I can’t legibly fill out onboarding paperwork if it is physical. Has anyone ever had to work around not writing or similar before?

    1. Manders*

      Is speech to text software an option? I don’t know if it would solve the physical paperwork problem, but it does wonders for people who have a hard time with typing.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I’m fine at my current work, I just don’t know what to do when a project is starting and all of the other lawyers are doing the paperwork so we can all get started while I…can’t do it. Time is at a premium, billed to the 10th of the hour, at most firms, so I don’t know if anyone could or would take the time to help me do it. Part of me thinks I should not even mention it until I already have the offer, since onboarding me could be a time-suck and someone else might get chosen instead.

    2. hermit crab*

      I think assistance with onboarding paperwork would be a very reasonable accommodation for your (temporary) disability! I’d honestly just ask if you can sit with someone and tell them what to write. Or perhaps you could ask to take the forms home and have a family member help you, if there’s information you don’t want to disclose to the person who’d help you at the office.

      I help out the local election office with pollworker/voting stuff and I have filled out a LOT of official forms for people who were unable to do so for a variety of reasons. It’s super common (because it’s related to voting, we have a specific process to follow so that it’s clear the person consents to receiving the assistance and that the person helping is doing it right) and I feel like if we can do it for something as official as voting, you can probably do it in your office.

      Good luck with getting your reimbursement from the transit agency!

  66. Half Day Rate*

    I have worked freelance for 3 years now and I have a confirmed 3 day job next week but when I asked about prep days for the job they said they needed me for the day before and the day after for half the day and so it will be half day rate. I have worked with this company since I started freelancing and have never had them try and book me for only half day rate regardless of the hours worked but I am going to email them and let me know that I don’t do half days because you may only need me for a half day but that takes me off the market for a full day. I feel like I’m being greedy but if they want to get down to the nitty gritty of hours, when I work on the main days with them I work more than 8 hour days and I don’t get paid overtime or anything. I’ve worked half day hours for other companies before and have never had them propose only half the rate. I’m honestly mad that they would even propose such a thing. It would be different if I could then just book up another half day job, but that’s not how my industry works. Not to mention I’ve already had to turn down a better paying job ugh. I don’t know why I feel guilty about this!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have a friend who helps me with my house and this is something I have to think about when I call him for help. If he puts in a half day here, he could have done a full day plus some hours for someone else.
      We have found some things that work.
      Sometimes I can line up several tasks that can wait a bit then he can do them when I have a full day of tasks.
      Other times I might have an emergency such as a leaky faucet. He can fix the emergency and then do a couple of those tasks that were on the waiting list. This might give him six or eight hours pay when he only spent an hour on the faucet.
      Another tactic that works is to save the waiting lists tasks for his slow season. This gives him some extra money and I get some non-pressing tasks done. He does not mind the shorter days when there is not much else going on.

      Not sure if any of this is realistic for your setting but maybe it will be food for thought?

    2. esra (also a Canadian)*

      Eff half days. I have a friend who freelances and had a regular gig working, in-office for a company every Tuesday and Thursday. They had the gall to ask if she could start timing exactly how long she worked on things and only charging them for that time… while still staying on the premises from 9-6 in case anything came up.

  67. Manders*

    Commenters, can you share some stories about companies with cultures that were a great fit for you, and how you found those companies?

    I’m currently in a job that’s nice in a lot of ways, and a lot of nice people work here, but I feel like I just don’t fit in with the office culture. I’m usually pretty good at chatting, but I feel like I keep hitting a wall where my interests and experiences are just completely alien to most of my my colleagues. Plus, I work on something that most of them don’t understand or see the importance of, which makes it hard to make job-related small talk.

    1. Mon Mon*

      I think answers will vary depending on industry and perhaps even department. I spent 20 years in financial services (the technology portions). Found a couple companies that had great cultures, because the people made the environment better, which to me, is more important than video games and foosball tables and the like. One of them was a brokerage firm and the other was a credit card company. At the credit card company, I worked in a business unit that was more “start-uppy” than the rest of the company. So not only were the people great, but also we had the foosball, and the ping-pong, and the free breakfasts.

      Now I’m in retail, working at HQ, in technology. The people are VERY NICE, but the physical office environment for our department is drab and kinda sucks. However, we have an employee store, a cafeteria, etc. I haven’t totally “clicked” with anyone here yet socially (i.e. no standard lunch buddy or happy hour peeps), but they’re all just so darn nice here, I’m really OK with that at this stage in my career. I think it just depends on the factors I mentioned earlier and expectations. My current job, I’m the least stressed I’ve ever been! So, yeah, I’ll happily take the whole “package”, even if it’s not the same culture or physical environment I’m used to. Best of luck to you!

  68. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    I’ve been waiting all morning for this because I am busting at the seams happy!

    After a lot of self-reflection and soul-searching, I decided to swallow my pride and call my old boss about getting my old job back. NewJob is fine (and was even a bit of a bump professionally, at least on paper), and everyone has been wonderful and very nice, but it’s just not for me. NewJob is general admin with some quasi-HR overlap (as there tends to be with most general admin positions), whereas OldJob is business partner level generalist HR, which is what I truly want to be doing.

    I knew there was an opening at OldJob for my old title, so I approached my old boss and she was SO supportive and really excited that I wanted to come back. Everyone here at NewJob has also been lovely and understanding when I explained the situation and why I made the decision I did. Anyway, it’s all happening pretty fast and I start back at OldJob in 2 weeks.

    I probably won’t be on here as much now as a result – OldJob is BUSY, crazy crazy busy (though they got approval for a lot more staff to handle the workload, which was WAY overdue!), but crazy crazy busy is kind of my favorite and I can’t wait to dive back into my passion.

  69. Snargulfuss*

    Sometimes no bonus at all is better than a bonus that’s so small it’s insulting. Over the holidays my brother received an envelope from his PT job. Inside was a dollar bill, a card with a message about the importance of saving, and a schedule for putting money into savings. No, the company is not contributing money to savings, it’s basically just “hey, remember how important it is to save money.” I was seriously angry on his behalf.

    2. SophieChotek*

      That’s awful — and so insulting! A card without the $1 and “Happy Holidays” would be preferable! Ugh…Do they even realize how insulting they are?

      1. Snargulfuss*

        I know! I wanted him to politely say something, but my brother just isn’t the type. Plus, it’s one of those care-giving jobs where the company could really care less about the employees…and in turn employee quality and commitment is abysmal.

    3. Stellar*

      If you are giving money with a card, the amount should never be less than the cost of the card. Just as a baseline of human decency. Seriously obnoxious.

    4. Namast'ay In Bed*

      Wow….that’s just awful. Like, why even bother? They’d be better off just giving them an empty Christmas card.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        I’m with you, what was even the point? It almost feels like they needed to give each employee something to hit some metric, like 100% of the employees here received bonuses less year or they payed out $X in bonuses to their employees. It’s both weird and totally insulting at the same time.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think we should send this company a card, “Remember to pay your people enough so they CAN have a savings account.” We will make sure the envelope does NOT contain any cash.

      Some companies just do not think.

  70. hermit crab*

    I do NOT like working from home (screen is so tiny! can’t pop my head over the cube wall and ask someone a quick question! VPN connection sucks! am missing free bagel day!) but I have a cold and do not want to infect anyone, so I am working from home today. Please make me feel better by telling me I am doing the right thing. I would like a little validation for my sacrifices. :)

    1. Temperance*

      You are doing the right thing! Seriously. You’re protecting your coworkers, and I for one applaud you for not putting other people at infection risk. You rule.

    2. Emi.*

      Thank you for your service to public health, which Beauchamp reminds us is “a way of doing justice, a way of asserting the value and priority of all human life,” so basically the most important goal for which any person could sacrifice. Gold medal!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      You are absolutely doing the right thing. My sick coworker dragged himself into work the last couple of days (he is no longer contagious, but still unwell) and he looked awful. Stay home and enjoy the comfort of working in your pajamas!

    4. costume teapot*

      DOING THE RIGHT THING! Even just listening to someone sniffle from the next cube over drives me bananas.

    5. Janet*

      Thank you thank you thank you! With my job, we can telecommute on either a regular or as-needed basis. Many of my coworkers insist on coming in sick instead of telecommuting. Their thought process is that if they are not sick enough to stay in bed all day, they’re coming in. Ugh.

    6. Namast'ay In Bed*

      You are doing the right thing! A few years back at Oldjob a coworker came in sounding like absolute death because he didn’t want to waste a sick day…got me so sick I had to miss a full week of work. I honestly can’t remember the last time I was that sick, I couldn’t even walk myself from the car into the doctor’s office, they had to get me a wheel chair.

      So yea I definitely get jumpy when I hear someone near me sounding sick. Stay home with your germs!

  71. DNDL*

    I have a question about applying for a management position.

    My poss quit. Her last day is rapidly approaching. I’m super happy, because she was a terrible boss. She entered this role with no experience managing. Everyone disliked her except for the higher ups who never had to actually work with her. She was hard to get along with, incredibly secretive about benign things, and rubbed everyone the wrong way. She managed me, and one other person who has decades of experience, but a lower job title than myself. I have only a few years of experience in my field, but am higher on the ladder than this other employee, and am full time. This other employee and myself get along great, and she has been a mentor to me, training me when my boss failed to, guiding me through tricky work situations, etc. I feel like I have learned more from this fellow employee than anyone else in my career so far.

    So my boss is retiring and they are about to start hiring for her replacement. Her replacement would be training me and this other employee I get along great with. Several times this other employee has voiced how much she would love for me to be her manager. People keep asking if I will apply. And…I just don’t know.

    On paper I’m not a great fit. I’ve never managed someone, unless you really stretch the definition of manage. I have relatively few years of experience in my field. And I didn’t get a lot of the opportunities to do huge parts of my job because my manager was truly terrible. For example, most hiring managers would expect me to have a year of outreach experience at this point, but I don’t because Horrible Manager refused to let me even talk to people who were not associated with the organization (see: secretive about benign things).

    I feel like if I apply, they will give me a courtesy interview, but not hire me. On the one hand that’s good–I get experience interviewing for a position I might want in the future. On the other hand, interviews are stressful and I don’t really want to go through that when there is a near-zero chance I’ll be considered for the job. Also, I’m just not sure I’ll ever want this particular job. Right now I work with…baby teapots, and I’d rather work with adult teapots. I trained to work with adult teapots. I’d rather work with adult teapots than manage baby teapots. There’s a good chance a spot will open to work with adult teapots in the next few years, and if I were to start managing baby teapots now, moving to work with adult teapots later would be a step down the ladder. A big part of me would rather work with baby teapots now, move over to working with adult teapots at a later date, and maybe someday manage adult teapots. If I manage baby teapots now, I *might* get the chance to manage adult teapots later, but I’ll be stuck with baby teapots for a lot longer than I’d like.

    Currently my plan is to sit down with big boss and bigger boss and talk through my long term career goals, and then ask if it makes sense for me to apply for my manager’s job given those career goals. But I was wondering if anyone has ever been in a similar situation. This job would be a great starter manager job, because the employee I’d be managing gets along with me great, and has expressed to me several times that she’d be happy to have me manager her, given we have a very similar view on how things run. And I’ve even butted heads with her before, and we’ve both come away from that better for it, with her deferring to me as higher on the ladder, and me really considering her ideas given her decades of experience. Managing her would be a great way to jump start my managerial experience. And I’d get to hire my replacement, so I’d get experience hiring, too.

    I just don’t know. Thoughts?

    1. Biff*

      is Poss shorthand for “piece of sh$$ superior?” If so, I love it.

      I wouldn’t go for a role that doesn’t do it for you.

      1. DNDL*

        No, it was just a typo. But when I re-read it, I also laughed for the same reason. Maybe it should be a thing.

    2. NW Mossy*

      If you worked in my org, I’d say apply, absolutely. It’s incredibly common in my company to apply for manager jobs 3-5 times before you land one, and very often the person who gets a given job was a runner-up for the previous opening. Our senior management reads applying for managerial jobs as key signaling behavior – you’re saying through your actions that you want the job, not just giving off words about wanted to move up.

      Even if you don’t get the job, it’s valuable experience to try. Not only do you get the interviewing experience, but you get more info about what your senior management is looking for and where you can strengthen/highlight your skills. It’s frustrating in the moment to know that the odds are slim, but each trial contributes to making you a better candidate in the future. I got turned down twice before I landed the job, and as much as it stung, I was so much better prepared for managing when I did get it that I was able to demonstrate some quick successes that wouldn’t have materialized without that growth while I waited.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Absolutely apply.
      Your cohort wants to support you and wants to see you succeed. This is called having a leg up, the deck is stacked in your favor and you will find out how much in a bit.

      Apply. When they interview you ask questions, lots of questions. If you get offered the job, I would like to encourage you to consider saying yes. You have a built in support system with your cohort, this is a good advantage that many new managers do not have. It could ease your entry into the management world.

    4. Artemesia*

      I don’t see a downside of applying and I like the idea of sitting down with the bosses to explore your career development. Sometimes that plants a seed and they will be willing to see that you get some experience that will prepare you later for this type move even if right not is not the moment. I would absolutely not mention that you would be good because you get along with the co-worker. That would read as perhaps inappropriate friendship for manager/subordinate. If you want to move into management then this sounds like a good starter job for that and if not you can ask about getting assignments that will make you a better candidate in the future.

  72. NASA*

    I accidentally took something from work that I haven’t had a chance to bring back….

    I needed to make some boxes for a work event two weeks ago and I made said boxes with the trunk of my car open. Long story short, I accidentally ended up taking my work packing tape home with me. You know, one of those with a big handle bar. To complicate matters further, I took tape out at my parent’s house (I didn’t want to forget and I was switching vehicles!) and I left the damn tape at their house 100 miles away. I realized my mistake on the way home but I was already 50 miles away. I’m going back this weekend, so I’ll get it back….

    However, people in this damn office cannot stop talking about the missing tape!!! Every. Single. Day. “Where’s the tape? Has anyone seen the tape? Where could it be?!?!” Do you people have nothing else to discuss?!
    I almost cracked yesterday. I wanted to scream, “IT T’WAS I WHO STOLE THE TAPE, YOU FOOLS!!!” *cackling laughter*

    The funny thing is that no one uses this tape and of course the moment I realized I had forgotten the tape I knew everyone and their mom would want to use it until I could get it back. Normally I would have said something the first day, but without going into a long winded story: I’m a Jupiter Specialist who happens sits in the Earth Generalist Department…I just sit here, I don’t really work with anyone here. You’ll get your tape back, people!

    3. FDCA In Canada*

      Yesterday someone in my office lost her ruler. This was High Drama. “Where’s my ruler? Has anyone seen my ruler? Did someone steal my ruler?” Going from office to office “is my ruler in here? Can I look for it?” Going to the front desk “is that my ruler? No, it just looks the same! You have one and I have one! So where’s mine?” Then a general office recce. “Do you think a client took it? Did it get put back in the supply closet? How long does it have to be gone before I can order another?”

      JUST ORDER A NEW ONE IT’S $6 AT STAPLES

      1. NASA*

        Seriously!!! That’s what I thought too. The Earth Department has money! Order a new one! In fact, ORDER TWO!!!

        Hahaha, ruler drama! Exactly! And now they’ve involved the entire office in on their Case of the Missing Ruler. Lord, help me. There has to be a word out there that perfectly describes these types of situations, or rather the person who gets all riled up over nothing.

    4. Tech Writer*

      Mwah hah haaaa! ;)

      Seriously, if it’s bothering you, run down to the nearest UPS store (or Kinkos or the equivalent) or U-Haul and buy a new one. No one will really care. And they’re super cheap, even the nicer ones. :)

      And in the meantime, practice cackling and rubbing your hands together… ;)

      1. NASA*

        I seriously considered buying one, but at this point I’ll be at my parent’s this afternoon. They’ll get their tape on Tuesday…now the question is, how to return it?! I can’t put it in it’s normal place, so I’ll need to find a “oh there it was!” spot. Ugh, I can’t wait till this is over. I have made a mess, haha.

        I practiced my cackle all the way home last night :)

        1. Mon Mon*

          No, I’d totally leave it out in the open with a sign that says “And now I’m baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! From outer space…!”

          1. Artemesia*

            Great idea. This will be good for a week of office conversation. “Can you believe someone put the tape in the refrigerator; no wonder no one could find it” Crisper drawer under the week old pack of baby carrots.

    5. Canadian Natasha*

      See I would be tempted to start taking pictures of the packing tape at various locations (like that commercial with the travelling lawn gnome) and leaving them in the office. Although my coworkers may start to suspect me when they see me “Muah ha ha ha ha”-ing at my desk all day. I don’t have much of a poker face.

        1. Canadian Natasha*

          Sure, it’s the slightly less creepy office version (although stick-on googly eyes could change that, now that I think of it.). :)

  73. Going Anon For This One*

    This is a question for the Academic Librarians out there, mostly. I am in a great library job at a small college doing what I love. I’m considering beginning to look for a new job in a few months, because my current position has no promotion path.

    My experiences in academic librarian hiring have always been the same- a phone interview followed by a day long in-person interview. I don’t want my current workplace contacted as references before the phone interviews, as I’ve had phone interviews that didn’t lead to an in-person. I’ve never had anyone treat this as odd, but once the in-person interview occurs, I’m less sure what to do.

    I’ve been on hiring committees myself. I think it would be a warning sign if a person wasn’t willing to let us speak to their supervisor at the in-person stage; however, I’m not sure if I want people calling my current job even at this stage. I have had in-person interviews that didn’t lead to a job offer, as I’m sure most people have.

    This is also my first professional job out of library school, so I don’t have a lot of professional references to rely on. How do I navigate their need to contact my current supervisor with my need to protect myself at my current place of employment? Does anyone who has more experience in the Academic Librarian world have advice on this? How would you feel if a candidate didn’t want their supervisor contacted at all? Is it worth it to take the risk of appearing that I am hiding something at my current place of employment?

    I should add that I am not afraid of being fired over job hunting, but rather would like to avoid drama. So, I suppose my reasons for wanting to not allow contact are pretty shallow.

    1. Seal*

      Fellow academic librarian here. As a department head who’s chaired several search committees, I can say it’s very, very common for candidates to NOT list their current supervisor as a reference. So common, in fact, that seeing a current supervisor as a reference is considered unusual. Really, the only time we see it is for entry-level candidates who use their current supervisor for an internship or something similar that’s ending when they graduate.

      Rather than use your current supervisor, it’s perfectly fine to use a colleague at your current position who can speak to your work. Do you serve on any committees? Have you worked on projects with people in other departments? Are you active in your state’s library association? Do you have a mentor? Those are all possibilities for references and would be considered perfectly normal by a search committee.

    2. EmilyG*

      I’m an academic librarian whose done a a good bit of hiring over the past few years, and I never contact anyone’s references other than those of the single final candidate. Who has time? Plus, references are from different individuals, so I wouldn’t use references to try to differentiate between candidates–I make up my own mind first. I do all the other references before the current supervisor, and I don’t contact the current supervisor without giving the person a heads-up first, that I need to do it and it’s the final step before an offer.

      Both my current workplace and my previous one require a reference from the current supervisor before making an offer. (In theory, we could do a conditional offer if someone were really concerned, but it never came to that on hires I worked on.) Our applications systems require both a list of references and the supervisor for every job listed. You can tick a “do not contact” box, and when people do that for their current supervisor, I just assume they mean “do not contact right now.” If someone ticks it off for a bunch of previous jobs, I consider it a red flag, but those are usually not strong applications anyway.

      Do you have any particular reason to suspect that the jobs you’re applying for would contact references at an early stage or that your current employer would be vengeful if they found out you were searching? If not, I’d include the current supervisor as a possible reference and consider it a small risk you take when job hunting. Good luck!

      1. Seal*

        Why do you consider “do not contact” for previous supervisors to be a red flag? In my case, most of my previous supervisors have retired and I have no way to contact them. I also had a previous supervisor who to my dismay asked that I not use her as a reference because she had been retired for several years and didn’t feel that she was familiar enough with my work anymore to be an effective reference. None of this makes me a weak candidate.

        For that matter, when people tick the “do not contact” box it means exactly that – do not contact that supervisor for any reason. Many people, myself included, do not want their current supervisor to know that they’re job hunting. Among other reasons, there have been numerous horror stories posted on this site alone of people who were fired when their current employer was contacted for a reference without the candidate’s consent. It would be a huge red flag for me if an organization contacted my current supervisor after I’d specifically asked them not to.

        1. Going Anon For This One*

          My library has a similar “unofficial” policy much like EmilyG, though we would NEVER contact someone’s supervisor without their consent. My concern is that I have consented after the inperson to my supervisor being contacted and then NOT gotten the job offer. While I think I dodged a bullet at that job (I heard awful things from the person who did get it), it did make things a little odd around my current work place for a while.

        2. EmilyG*

          Well, I wouldn’t see it as a red flag for someone who had it for one or two jobs, or they put the supervisor as “Jane Smith (now retired).” But if you put it for 3+ jobs, and your references are non-supervisors? Seems fishy to me. Of course, this usually comes combined with job-hopping and people who put offputting info in the “why you left” box. As I said, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this on the application of a person I wanted to interview anyway.

          Where are you getting the idea that I’d ever contact someone’s supervisor without their permission? “I don’t contact the current supervisor without giving the person a heads-up first” is what I explicitly wrote above. Usually what happens is the person asks at the end of the interview what the next steps are. We tell them that, if they’re the final candidate, we’ll contact their references, and then we are required to contact their current supervisor, but we’ll let them know first. And then we do. It’s only been an issue once, where the candidate had been working in contract job and it was really unclear who their supervisor even was. It still got figured out and they took the job.

          1. Going Anon For This One*

            I didn’t mean to suggest you would contact someone without their permission. I realize now though that how I wrote it made it sound that way. So, sorry about that.

            1. EmilyG*

              I was actually responding to Seal, but no worries. What I am overall trying to say to you is that it’s normal to be worried about this particular issue, but employers know that you will be and should be sympathetic in how they deal with it. If they’re not, they suck, and in job hunting you’re always running some small risk of having to deal with people who suck (and hopefully you find out in time!).

    3. Another academic librarian*

      If you have a solid relationship with your boss, consider telling them that you love your work, but that you’ve stumbled on an opportunity that you just couldn’t pass up a chance at.

      I took great pains to be very discreet during a job search similar to yours, and despite my careful efforts (asking all my references and interviewers for total confidentiality, checking off “do not contact my current supervisor”), somehow word got back to my boss. It’s a small industry, and some people can’t resist gossipping.

      Furthermore, I had one search committee call ALL my references after my phone interview but before even scheduling the in-person! So the process varies and can be…weird.

      1. Going Anon For This One*

        Well and I work in a subfield of the already small field, so I once found out that I didn’t get a job from gossip before I got the call from the employer. The person who told me who got it didn’t know I had applied. I think they would have been mortified. You are probably right that the best you can do is be discreet, but honest with my boss. I was rather hoping someone had some secret solution that I had not thought of.

  74. Hated HR Lady*

    Morning,

    I am an HR Manager (generalist) for a small business (about 90 employees.) I’m fairly certain that one of the employees, who does not report to me, just told me that his co-workers (98% male) hate me. He said it to be kind because he didn’t want me to think that everyone hated me but it’s still confusing.

    What I’m wondering is; is it normal for HR do be “hated” by the employees? I realize that being disliked goes with the territory because of the bureaucracy that goes along with it and because they don’t really know what my position entails. Any personal experience or anecdotes would be appreciated.

    Also, should I address this further with the employee? Find out who thinks this and address it with them? or should I just let it go?

    I was internally promoted so I’ve been dealing with a lot of negativity, distrust and I think jealousy so I’m not terribly concerned, but it’s affected me a bit more than I realized.

    Thanks for any advice!

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        Ugh, yeah. You probably don’t take their crap, and they aren’t used to women not taking their crap.

        However, unfortunately, it is not uncommon for HR’s name to be taken in vain by staff. I take it with a grain of salt and do my job as best as I can, and I try to be open and honest with managers to explain my rationale for things (this helps … usually). I get it, though, it’s never fun to be cast as the bad guy. :(

        1. Hated HR Lady*

          I feel the same way. My door is open, if you’d rather talk behind my back and complain than speak with me about your concerns, there isn’t much I can do about them.

          Thanks for the support!

    2. Emi.*

      He doesn’t want you to think everyone hates you, so he told you that everyone hates you? That everyone except him hates you? I’m confused. Either way, I think you should only ask him for clarification/more details/whatever if you have other reasons to believe that it’s actually true. If he’s your only reason, I would just ignore it (especially if he’s the type who might say “everyone hates you” to mean “people find the bureaucracy you represent frustrating” or something like that).

      1. Tech Writer*

        Yeah, smells like gaslight to me.

        Ignore this dude! He’s not trying to help you or do you any favors; he’s trying to throw you off your stride for some bizarre reason. Just shine him on.

        Sorry you’re dealing with this garbage.

    3. LCL*

      Everybody ‘hates’ HR. It’s not personal, it’s because people don’t understand what HR does. And management likes to hide behind HR for lousy decisions, when they can get away with it.
      And your employee who told you something devastating to ‘to be kind’? Junior high all over again. He is not your friend. Keep him close as a source of info, but don’t trust him, and don’t believe everything he says.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        And sometimes because people have had bad experiences with incompetent/poorly trained or the rare genuinely malicious people in HR. It’s unfortunate, but tends to be visible when it happens, because people in HR can be in a position to do a lot of damage, and it can be awfully memorable when it happens.

        Plus, I think it carries over for a lot of people (as in, they have a bad experience, and it sort of “taints” HR in their minds, even if the specific person isn’t there anymore or the person themselves has moved on to a different company). It’s unfortunate, because sometimes it means that HR doesn’t hear about things they really would be able to help with if they were involved at an earlier stage.

    4. Punkin*

      Our last HR VP was useless – not hated, just not viewed as a professional. Any item disclosed to HR (EAP needs, coworker disputes & such) was no secret to anyone in the institution within 1 work day. Would not answer emails on buyout programs or benefits.

      The new VP seems to be much more responsive & has his new staff acting as professionals instead of gossips. I think he will change the reputation of the office (tho the last one made it so bad that the new one will have a hard row to hoe).

      My HR rep at HugeGlobal Paper Company was great. I felt bad for her when she met with people being laid off during a massive reorg. She was professional, but was still concerned to the point she had an armed security guard with her during each discussion.

    5. Girasol*

      This sounds like the old junior high school mean girl trick, “No offense but you’re ugly and nobody likes you. Thought you ought to know.” The speaker expects a “thank you” to indicate that you agree. In junior high etiquette if you disagree with someone who starts an insult with “no offense” then they’re justified in whispering to everyone how hateful you are to someone so kind as to tell you something awful for your own good. Maybe the message you got was just a little office nastiness and not worth taking seriously. Work culture borrows so much from junior high school culture.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Everyone hates you pretty much means, this guy hates you or wants to undermine you or likes to hassle women. Not likely a kind act of information sharing. Be very cool. Don’t overreact, just make sure you communicate well to everyone and do a good job.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I think it’s pretty typical for anyone in HR, male or female, to be hated, especially at the higher levels (as opposed to someone like the HR Admin who doesn’t get to make policy).

      HR is going to take heat when they (and this probably includes you) take and/or implement any unpopular action. Deny a supervisor’s request to raise the salary of a favorite employee? Increase in the cost of insurance? Annual raise less that the cost of living?

      And yes, bad management (and bad supervisors) will often hide behind HR and let them take the blame for their bad policies.

      Blame HR! (or more specifically, blame Hated HR Lady!)

      I’d ignore it and focus on doing my job as fairly and effectively as possible. But it’s tough.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Not the exact same but I inherited a group of people who hated me from day one. I don’t know, my eyes are the wrong color? No clue.

      I kept in mind that the only person who really had to believe in me is ME. I knew that I wanted the best for them and that knowledge had to be enough for me for the moment. The group was not in a place where they could give me validation or even a kind word.

      Next. I had to work with them and their concerns. People who are worried about their own jobs are not going to worry about other people’s jobs that much. Through my actions and words I showed them that I wanted them not only to stay employed but I wanted them to succeed. I was very careful that my walk matched my talk. I let them know what I was doing and why. I had to build some transparency before they could begin to trust me.

      It took time, I did notice a large reduction in the amount of tension in the group after a bit. One thing I did that I think caught their eye was I did not talk negatively about anyone. They watched pretty closely to see if I would.
      One thing that helped me was to try to remember that anything I said probably went right through the group. So I framed things in a manner that most people in the group would see why I was saying this or that.

      Really, this guy did do you a favor by telling you. Be your absolute best professional self. Treat everyone with the same level of respect/dignity. If you must go back to the guy wait six months or a year, then ask him how the rumor mill is doing. In that time frame you may find that this person is a trouble maker and you decide there is no need to ask. Or you may find that this guy was right on target and is a reliable source for general inputs. Time is your friend on that one. People who are not sincere cannot sustain a fake sincerity for a long period of time. Sincere people have no problem with this.

  75. Question About References/ Anon for This*

    Hey everyone:

    I posted a while ago asking for advice about references. I would happily like to follow up and say my worrying was for nothing in that my references were contacted and everything was fine on that end. The bad news is, as suspected, I still had another round of interviews with a possible third round. There’s been no clear decision on that so I moved forward with interviews for positions at other companies. I am still honestly quite angry this keeps happening and I think in the future I will pushback if approached about references so early in the process. It’s just totally ridiculous.

  76. moss*

    SAS or R in Pharma

    So in the salary thread someone mentioned that R is absolutely used in the Pharmaceutical industry and I wonder if you have any more details on that. When I say we only use SAS i mean for validated results and datasets that are submitted to the FDA. I have only ever seen SAS used for that and often in the SAP it will be specified that the software used to generate the results will be “SAS version x.x or above”.

    For those using R or other software, what is the context in which you are using it? What do you do with it, what are you generating?

    just curious… I love hearing others’ experiences.

    1. AnonAcademic*

      I use R in the context of academic research. In my experience it tends to be a more flexible tool if you are doing a lot of multivariate and/or niche type analyses, but it’s picky about data formatting. There really shouldn’t be any difference in standard analyses (ANOVA, regression, etc.) between R, SAS, SPSS, or Matlab so people I work with mainly use what they were trained in and what’s the norm for their industry. My understanding is that the financial sector and economists use Excel for a lot of data modeling, it’s actually been the reason for several data coding scandals/paper retractions but that doesn’t stop people from using it as a data analytics tool.

    2. Anon in survey*

      Not in pharma, but I used R in school and SPSS at work. I do survey research and SPSS is pretty much standard in the field – but not because anyone loves it. We primarily do crosstabs and some light regressions but anything more complicated than that we go to R , which doesn’t always play nice with survey data but is so much nicer to use, imo. Coworkers from academia or recent grads tend to prefer Stata or R depending on what they were trained on, but we don’t do anything complicated enough on a regular basis to switch. I’m hoping to at least convert us to R someday if for no other reason than my love affair with ggplot.

    3. Wirving*

      We use both SAS and R in my office depending on the project and the analyst’s proficiency in each language (ed research). My team uses R primarily for graphics, and SAS for exploratory research and statistical modeling. We also process all projects using both programs to validate our results; quality control is huge in my office.

  77. KR*

    So I potentially have a job interview. I’m kind of frustrated though because they told me they can’t budge on salary (3-4$/hour less than I would ideally take for a job like this) and it’s hopefully for them transitioning to an evening role four days a week with one weekend day. Its 10 minutes away from my house, full time, and includes benefits including free tuition so I’m not sure if that makes up for the abysmal pay. Also the job market here is awful so I don’t want to turn down this job and not get another offer.

    Here’s the tough part. My husband is deploying early-April. After he deploys I don’t really care what hours I work but I was really hoping to find a job that would allow me to see him as much as possible – no nights and weekends. And the new hours in this job wouldn’t allow me to have two days off in a row so we wouldn’t be able to go away for the weekend if we wanted. I guess I’m just worried I won’t see my husband enough before he deploys because I’m stuck in a job that’s not really worth it but I’m scared to turn down an office job when all that’s out here is retail and food service.

    I wish I could talk to him about it but he’s away for work until next Wednesday and the potential interviews are next Friday. Thoughts? Support? I’m stuck.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      No harm in interviewing. As long as it MIGHT be a fit, then you can interview in good faith and learn more. You may discover they’re not super set on evenings and weekends, or that they’d be fine with an April start date for evenings and weekends.

      1. KR*

        Thank you for answering. They mentioned it might be happening vaguly soon and in the future but maybe in the interview I can get a sense for how soon that would be.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      When you get down to the terms of the offer ask if you can have time off to spend with your husband before he deploys. (Figure out what you would like a couple days? a week?) See if they will agree to this before they hire you. It seems like a reasonable request to me but I am not sure if you would find it helpful.

  78. Tardis*

    I am participating in a long-term clinical trial for a new treatment for type 1 diabetes. It’s exciting and scary, but it’s also pretty inconvenient and will get in the way of work for about two months. I need to do some pretty meticulous metric tracking that means I can’t have any lunch meetings or alter my daily schedule at all, as well as traveling for some multi-day in-clinic admissions during which I’ll be trying to work remotely.

    Has anyone else participated in a clinical trial while working full time? What kind of accommodations did you work out with your supervisor? Were you pleased with your trial experience? I’m more looking for anecdotes than advice, but I’m open to anything!

    1. TeaLady*

      I’ve taken part in two clinical trials – I have MS and live/have lived near two of the big research centres in the UK. I’ve also been part of patient participation and involvement in a couple more via my job – which is full time.

      The first one needed me to perform a test at particular times of day for three days a month to test my cortisol level and that was fine – I just needed to note exact times so there was some flexibility. However, every month for the six month trial I needed to be out of the office for up to half a day for physical and cognitive testing. As it was under the aegis of the hospital department I was under for my MS, I think we fudged it a bit and counted it as “hospital appointment” for which – under the Equality Act – I’m allowed reasonable time off.

      The results of this trial have been published, and I think were quite positive for people with MS, which is gratifying – it showed that mild/moderate exercise is beneficial, and exertion should not be avoided (which had been the previous advice). It was an interesting trial to participate in – it wasn’t too onerous, and it actually made me feel better about my capabilities and how I was managing my condition, and how my body can still do things.

      The current one has just been me giving blood samples for genetic sequencing so hasn’t impacted work as the bloods were taken during a routine appointment.

      If I were to participate in more trials, I know my employers would be supportive – I work for a health related charity (although not MS related) and we fund some clinical research, so we know how important it is. Equally, because we fund research – and because I disseminate the results of that research – my employer knows that if I sign up for a trial, I will have done due diligence and decided it’s a well designed trial and worth my time/any inconvenience in schedules.

      The PPI work I’ve done has been looking at study and questionnaire design, and that’s been valuable not just because I’m contributing to a trial, but as education and development for me in my role.

      I’m not sure I’ve answered your question, but I would say to anyone, if you can participate in a trial – even if it’s just online questionnaires – it’s so worth it.

      1. Tardis*

        Thanks so much for sharing your experience, TeaLady. Even though our work and our trials are both very different, it’s really helpful for me to hear your perspective. I’m glad the results from your trial were so good! I hope I’ll be able to say the same once mine is complete.

  79. Tableau Wizard*

    How much is your work/life balance worth? Can anyone share with me how much ($$ or %) of a pay cut they took to get more work/life balance?

    1. moss*

      zero. I made it clear at the beginning of my career that I was leaving on time every day. I felt penalized at that particular job but since then I have not. I don’t accept jobs at places that work their people to death.

    2. Manders*

      For me, it’s not so much about hours with my butt in the chair per day as it is about how much stress I’m bringing home with me. I took a pay cut (only $1 per hour, and lower insurance premiums made up for it, but still) to leave a job that had me coming home stressed out and teary.

      I also have a sick parent who lives 2,000 miles away. At this point, I don’t think any amount of money would be worth not being able to fly out and see my family. My current job isn’t that generous with PTO, but it’s very flexible with unpaid time off, and I wouldn’t trade it for one with more PTO but a work culture that discourages employees from taking long trips.

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      About 14% in straight salary, and lost some perks (employee discounts & phone allowance). Gained some perks too but the ones I gave up were worth a bit more, money-wise.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I’ve never had a pay cut for work/life balance (still early in my career) but I’ve learned a LOT in my current role, and while I like my boss, she expects us to be available nearly all the time because she is. I will never work for someone with that mindset again.

      I really, really need a work/life balance for my mental health. I value it highly.

    6. Michaela*

      I deliberately chose to work in higher-ed, which pays lower than private/corporate in my field, but has infinitely better balance, and I’m fairly sure that if I were working in private, I’d be making at least 30K a year more (but the benefits might be worse? hard to say, not everyone cares about access to a research library/tuition programs the way I do). But I would also be suicidally anxious and depressed (not exaggerating, the last time I worked in private I was in the process of self-admitting to an inpatient psych program when I left and lo and behold my suicidality vanished), so my healthcare costs would SKYROCKET.

      1. Grumpy Academic*

        As an academic who is ridiculously stressed, I’d love to know which bits of higher ed are better? Seriously, like the environment and care about the mission, but want to explore options for an admin type side step rather than carry on under the pressure to get grants and perfect satisfaction ratings from students who just want As….

    7. TeaLady*

      If I were to work for a commercial organisation or a larger charity, I would be looking at a 20% or more pay bump. But I almost certainly would have to commute instead of working from home (and because of where I live compared to where the jobs are that means 1.5-2 hours per day minimum) and work more hours (we are hot on 9-5, actually taking your lunch hour and if you work extra on a project you get time off in lieu). If I think about work off the clock, it’s because I want to not because I have to.

    8. NicoleK*

      I did not take a paycut to get more work/life balance. But I did make the conscious decision to move out of management and back into the individual contributor role. As a manager, I was working 40+ hours (it didn’t help that my boss was disorganized, very last minute, and changed her mind frequently). I do 8 hours a day at current job and I’m enjoying it.

    9. Artemesia*

      I am a bit cynical about this as in my limited experience the two are not connected that much. Obviously the choice to not be in a high powered ad or law firm is such a choice but when the jobs are similar lower wages often don’t actually result in better WL balance. I once took a 25% paycut in order to work three quarters time for a couple of years when my youngest was still pre-school age. I got lots of remarks like ‘I looked for you yesterday but I guess you were out CHristmas shopping’ from the boss. After a few of those, I said ‘don’t you remember I dropped X project in order to be able to leave at 3 every day? I am taking a 25% paycut to do this.’ He actually said — oh I didn’t realize that, I thought you just dropped the project. He had of course approved all this.

      My husband did make this choice. He had a small law firm and he and his two partners all decided that they wanted to pursue their avocations as well as their vocations so they worked reasonable hours and made less money than if they had all worked 60/70 hour weeks. But these guys were in control of this; as an employee it is trickier and lower pay may not translate to lowered expectations.

  80. Emi.*

    Anyone have tips for public transit commutes in the cold? My bus system is definitively of the not-run-by-Mussolini variety and doesn’t do text updates, so I end up standing in the cold a lot, but if I bundle up too much I get all sweaty speed-walking to the station.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I need these too! Especially because I have a splint now that covers my wrist and thumb, but not my fingers. I literally CANNOT wear gloves because they will not physically fit. And it is -10 today.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I used to own a very nice full length wool coat. It could be left open to ventilate while walking and warmed up quickly when I buttoned it up for standing in the cold.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      If you don’t have one already, look into a high quality coat that doesn’t require you to layer underneath. I find that I get far sweatier if I’ve got a scarf over a sweater over a turtleneck over a heavy blouse as opposed to my giant Lands’ End down coat over a light blouse.

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I walk to work, and I have a long, microsuede/fake sherpa lined coat from LLBean. Most LLBean coats have the double zipper (you can unzip from both top or bottom), which is great for ventilation AND mobility.

    5. fellow sweat-er in winter*

      If you’re not already doing it, wear an underlayer that a) keeps you a little bit warmer and b) protects your shirts from being drenched at the end of the day. This kind of works in summer too. I now wear a cami under most of my work shirts.

    6. Artemesia*

      I live in a very cold winter spot and I wear silk long johns. If I am doing a bit of speed walking to the station and start to heat up, I just unsnap my down coat. Silks really make a huge difference and yet are not generally too hot indoors either. If you get to work and find they are too hot you can take them off but I have found that unless a place is overheated, they are pretty comfortable and they make all the difference outdoors under my cords or jeans.

  81. Jessen*

    Asked this last week but I got in really late that time:

    I’m finding myself in a new position of having to give feedback and correct other people’s errors. I am not management but rather something like quality control. I could use any advice people have on how to manage being a position of correcting other people, rather than just being a worker bee.

    1. Anonnnnnn*

      In my experience there are some people who are going to need a compliment sandwich when you correct them. I hate the compliment sandwich because I find it patronizing and insincere but some people get really offended if you just say “Hey, I noticed that you did _____, make sure you do ____ instead next time” even though it’s neutral language. At a previous job I had a coworker whose annual raise and bonus were affected because some newer employees she had offered feedback to (as a senior employee) had complained that she was too mean about it. The custom at that job was to phrase everything like “Hey, great job on this! There were a few things that needed adjusting [list of mistakes] but don’t worry about it, everything else was perfect! :) :) :)”

    2. NW Mossy*

      Back in my individual contributor days, I worked in several roles where it was part of my job to review the work of others and kick it back for error corrections if needed.

      What I found really fundamental to doing it well is establishing good relationships with my reviewees right from the get-go. Take the time to know them and get a feel for their communication and work style. Listen more than you talk at first, and give some positive feedback (“hey, thanks for getting this to me well ahead of the deadline – I appreciate the wiggle room!”) to cement that you see the good stuff they do too. Also, give your first instances of “fix this” in person (or on the phone, if they’re remote) rather than via email. This allows you to establish that you’re the kind of person that gives corrections in a relaxed, this-is-not-a-personal-attack manner. Once you have that rapport, you can say some pretty critical stuff but have it be received as you intend it – a corrective to improve the quality of the output, not a slam on the person herself.

      You’ll likely encounter some people who just struggle to take critical feedback – a common response I saw was people starting to beat themselves up for an error. I like to respond to that one with “that’s why we have a QC process – we’re all human, and we caught it before it impacted the customer, so it’s cool.” You’ll never entirely recalibrate those people, but as long as you’re pleasant and professional, the negativity tends to decline over time.

      1. Jessen*

        I actually don’t have a lot of flexibility in how feedback is sent. Feedback is sent to the person, their manager, my manager, and our manager’s manager via a specific email form. I have control over just what the error says, but I don’t have the option to send feedback in a different manner.

    3. Sualah*

      The best advice I got when I started my quality control job was never apologize for the error. It’s not your fault, and don’t take that on. So don’t start calls or emails with, “I’m sorry, but there’s an error on the TPC report.”

      Are you giving feedback to your coworkers or a new set of people? If it’s people you used to work with, that can be a little more difficult. But I had success but just framing it as, “I see XYZ but it looks like it should be ABC instead” and then letting them talk. If they saw the error, then that was easy.

      If I needed to explain my thought process more, that was no problem. “Well, since we’re dealing with milk chocolate teapots, policy says that they only have a 1″ spout, but this one is longer.”

      Maybe there’s something you overlooked. “Yeah, but this was a special order, approved by CEO.”

      Maybe they’re wrong. “Oh, I had been working on the dark chocolate ones and didn’t change my settings.”

      Maybe there’s some judgment. “Ok, it’s 1.3″ long but that’s 1″ if you round down.” If I knew that exactly 1″ was definitely right, I’d push back, “Well, no, it has to be exactly 1″. You can see that on page 5.” If I’m not sure, I’ll say, “Ok, that’s a good point, let me follow up with my manager and we’ll let you know the result.”

      If it’s a complete error, no real way to get around it. (“This is a dark chocolate teapot in a milk chocolate box”), then I’d just say, “Unfortunately, the wrong teapot got put in the box, so that’s an error.”

      In my department, who exactly got assigned the error could be debated, but that wasn’t our responsibility to deal with. If they really pushed back, then we could say something like, “Well, the wrong teapot went out, so the error will be assessed. If it needs to be reassigned to a different responsible party, we’ll update you once that’s resolved.”

      It’s a hard job sometimes, since–for me, anyway–people’s bonuses are dependent on their quality. But never, never apologize for it. (Feel sympathy and empathize, sure. But it is not your fault.) Internalizing that made my job so much more pleasant.

  82. SJPufendork*

    I’ve spoken before about how we’re a small company in process of being acquired by a much larger one. 3 months out, things are still murky about jobs, roles, future, etc. It’s to be expected. But one thing has come out: when we cut over to the new company, all previously accrued vacation and sick leave will be paid out (we have a much more generous sick leave than the future company).

    My direct reports are obviously seeing this as a windfall. However, I got into a thing this week where one of them has a contagious cold/flu and keet trying to come to work so he doesn’t have to take a sick day, as he really wants the pay out. I sent him home Tuesday (after two hours of him ignoring my directive, because I was stuck in a meeting and couldn’t see that he hadn’t left). He came in Wednesday with fever and illness. I sent him home again.

    Thursday and he asked if he could work from home. Normally I’d say yes, but he had no voice, was clearly feeling horrific, and was still too sick to do anything productive. So I said no. He finally went to the doctor…..and was diagnosed with real flu. He at least didn’t try to say he could make it in today.

    Argh. I swear I’m going to be so peeved if someone else gets sick because of him.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I freaking hate this. I work in an open office and none of us get benefits, so lots of people come to work sick, which inevitably leads to other people getting sick. Paid time off is so freaking important.

      1. H.C.*

        More importantly, sick time that can’t be cashed out – so employees actually use them instead of hoarding for a bonus payout later on.

  83. Anonymous today*

    Anyone struggle with feeling motivated to get back in the workforce and apply for jobs? Perhaps you were a freelancer, a stay-at-home mom, or went through a long spell of unemployment. How did you get yourself motivated again?

    Backgound: I’ve been a job hopper with bad experiences in the workforce: lay-offs, little upward mobility, bad managers, little personal direction (not knowing “what to do with my life”) etc. Haven’t been employed for the last six years (except for a three-month stint that ended in a lay-off because the owner couldn’t manage cash flow). During those six years I was a stay-at-home mom and also ran a part time freelance business. I need to get back in the workforce for 1) steady income 2) to build up my retirement fund.

    While I look forward to a new beginning and restarting a new-ish career, and I think I have better expectations that come with age and experience (and reading this blog!), the idea of being tied to a job every day, for many years to come, is a bit depressing to me. Actually, it’s really depressing. I feel tons of guilt over this, like I’m one of those people who wants a nice life without putting in the work and sacrifice it takes to get there. I don’t want to be seen as a complainer or someone who gives up easily. It’s not that I’m against working, I actually put in a lot of time into volunteer work and I’m not afraid of taking on hard challenges. The problem is the monotony.

    Advice? How do you keep going when the results of what you’re trying to achieve are years away and all you see before you is an 8am commute for the next two decades?

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      I don’t know what field you’re looking for a job in, so YMMV. But I recently finished my PhD, which was half a decade of horrible. 8 am? Yep. Monotony? So much. Too many other problems to mention? So true it’s not even funny. But after I dragged my way through those five years I finally have a job I like. So, maybe it won’t be 2 full decades of monotonous 8 am commute. And maybe you can find a job that’s not monotonous, which can help tremendously. And even if there are several years of not-great, I found that remembering that the future would be different helped. I knew that there was an end date on the horrible. The same is likely true for you as well- there’s going to come a time that your job/career isn’t just a slog. Just keep envisioning the light at the end of the tunnel and it’s easier to get there.

    2. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I often don’t feel particularly motivated and I sort of feel like I’m just going through the motions when I’m applying for jobs. I have a good resume, can produce a good cover letter and am generally good at filling out applications, but I don’t want to get my hopes up too high. When I actually get an interview, then I feel pretty darned good about things. I’m reasonably fit and dress professionally.

      I live in an economically-depressed state where there are not that many opportunities and I’m the main caregiver to my elderly parents. I feel like my age is against me, while on the other hand, people often tell me that I look younger than my age. (Although there’s a good chance that they’re probably just bull sh*tting me.)

      There really is a certain wisdom that comes with age. I know that I’m now much better at seeing the “big picture” about how certain jobs and tasks fit together and relate to each other than I was when I was younger and I’m also a lot more disciplined.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Monotony.
      If you know that is a problem for you then you are well underway to solving it.

      Chose jobs that have a variety of tasks and a variety of aspects to the work.
      Chose jobs that do not take ten years to produce one result.
      Decide that a job is what we make it. If we don’t look around to see what else there is to do we will be stuck doing that one thing. If we refuse to take on extra work, again, we are cutting ourselves off from that opportunity to have something different to do.

      My job now is one I would not have taken years ago. I could not see myself chained to a desk, some people liked desk work and I sort of envied them. Now that I have this desk job and I like it. BUT. I volunteer for all sorts of things that do not directly fit my job description and if the boss asks for something special I usually say yes. Sometimes trainings are close by and I can go to the trainings. Other people who have a similar job title come into work and just do X all day long. That is not for me. I expanded my own job duties by volunteering or agreeing to other things, so I do things A through M. If you asked my peers they would probably think I am nuts for doing so. But like you say here, I cannot do a job where I just do one thing all day long.

      When it comes to monotony now is the worst it will be, because it is whatever you imagine inside your mind. And our lizard brains can tell us a bunch of lies. The truth is that you do have some control over what is going on. You can pick jobs that are closer to your liking, you can request special projects or side work, you might even find a place where you move around. You spend a few years in one department then you move to another department. It will not be what you picture in your head right now.

  84. overwhelmed*

    So I find myself in sort of a situation and no idea what to do.
    Late 2016 I was promoted into a new role with the promise of training, guidance, and coaching, along with being set up to succeed. I am now 3 months into this role with nothing of the sort. There are two of us about to roll out our biggest initiative of the year with no manager, little guidance,no training for me, and I’m wondering what the heck I’m doing here. We’ve been working 12+ hour days, barely stopping to eat, sleep, and shower. No one seems to care that it’s just 2 people doing the work of 4.

    I keep asking myself if this is a product of me trying to learn a new role, or if this situation is just generally mucked up. Our manager is absent. We are down one person. It’s not even about the money anymore, but wondering if this is sustainable for the long term.

    I’m honestly trying my best, but not sure that I can make this work in the long run if I get tossed aside. If I start looking, my resume would look like this:
    3 years
    3 years
    18 months
    14 months here

    Any thoughts/ideas? Am I shooting myself in the foot, or is this just not going to work?

    1. EA*

      So I am probably more lenient on job-hopping than AMA and others here. But I think you are FINE. Granted, you need to stay 3 years at the next job. But you have 2 long stints, and I think you can explain this away, just mention that you enjoy the work, but the company has been directing resources elsewhere, and you don’t think it is sustainable in the long-term.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Stay if you can muster the determination to make it work. Stay if you can see a path through the chaos. Stay if you feel you have allies who will get you through.

      Honestly, it sounds like you should go. It sounds like you were set up to fail and you are really feeling it right now.

    4. NicoleK*

      When you have no manager, no guidance, no training, you’re working 12 hour days, and no one cares, it is time to go. You are right to worry about your job history, but remember you just need one employer to take a chance on you.

  85. Stressed out!*

    Happy friday everyone!

    Here’s a ‘returning to school question’:

    I mostly enjoy my nonprofit job and have been here for less than a year. However, I’ve been sitting on a great LSAT score and GPA (I took the test after a life-changing legal advocacy fellowship, but decided to wait and see if i could feel as passionately about other, less expensive career paths – but it turns out law is what I want to do!), and after the election I took the plunge and applied for law schools. I’ve gotten accepted to some great schools and am now looking seriously at quitting my job in the next couple of months.

    Here’s the issue: we’ve had two staff members quit and are doing reorganization/shuffling that will put a huge amount of work in my lap as we head into our May/June busy period. I’d like to hang on to my job until April or May to earn some more money (and to wait and hear about scholarships from schools), but I really don’t want to burn bridges by leaving without giving them enough time to hire someone else for these projects. I’ve been working 6-7 days a week (service job on weekends), for years, so I know I need to give myself time off before heading to school and can’t handle this busy period.

    Do you think I should quit now, even though it’s not ideal for me, so that I can be considerate to my org and give them time to hire another person? Or is it better to stay a couple more months and hit the year mark (does this even matter??) even though it will be more inconvenient for them?

    Thoughts??? There’s pretty high turnover here.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      One of the biggest mistakes I think you can make is adjust your life to your job too much. You have no idea what the future holds and they’ll get over it. While I don’t think you should screw over the people who you work for, I also believe that your first obligation is to yourself and your goals. So, I guess I would say do what is best for you and try to find a happy medium.

      You also don’t know if you’ll get scholarships or anything. So, quitting before you know seems a little shortsighted.

      1. Stressed out!*

        Very true, although I do have two full rides to slightly lower ranked schools that i’d be happy to take if nothing else comes through – so I do know that i’ll be in school somewhere in the fall!

        Also you are completely right re: adjusting yourself to your job too much, and I know I tend to do that from other roles that I had a hard time leaving despite better opportunities.

    2. Temperance*

      Do not quit now. Do not quit until you are ready to go to law school. This is doubly true if you are in dire financial straits. Think of it this way: your job wouldn’t hesitate to let you go if they needed to, you shouldn’t hesitate to do what’s best for you.

      I finished my job in early August, and had two weeks off before school. That was more than fine for me.

      1. Stressed out!*

        Thanks so much for the advice! I’m actually in a pretty good financial situation, with a big chunk of savings and a bartending job that pays more than this one as a backup. The thought was to quit and travel for a while, since I’ve been so busy the past few years. I really admire that you only needed two weeks off though!!! Just thinking that that timing wouldn’t be the best for me personally.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          If you can afford it, you should ABSOLUTELY take some time to travel, relax, and recharge. It might be your last chance for a good long while. Like I said below, the fact that you stayed at this job 9 months instead of 12 is really not going to matter in the future, assuming it even stays on your resume at all.

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      Since you’ll be quitting to go back to school, could you just tell them early and give a longer notice period?

      1. Stressed out!*

        If I let them know that I wanted to stay until May, but not after, I think they’d likely just hire someone else and replace me immediately so that they’ll have continuity with this project. But since i’m pretty ambivalent about whether I care about staying that full time anyways, that’s definitely a thought – I could put in a longer notice, but be prepared for them to replace me sooner (making sure I can get extra bartending shifts as a backup)

    4. MegaMoose, Esq*

      In addition to the advice above, the fact that you don’t hit the one year mark almost certainly will not matter. You will find very quickly that any work you do after entering law school will become vastly more relevant than anything you did prior, and depending on your circumstances may drop off of your resume entirely even before you graduate. That’s not to say that your experience prior to law school doesn’t matter at all, but it will in almost all cases become less relevant than legal experience. Stay longer if you want the money or to keep busy or whatever, but don’t give the “stay a year” career advice any consideration.

      1. Stressed out!*

        Awesome, thanks. This is kind of what I thought, esp. since I likely won’t be in this same region to practice (so i’ll need to build new contacts anyways).

    5. Observer*

      Don’t quit now, but do give them early notice. So, if you want to work till May, tell the in mid-february that you are starting school and can work till May. Although they might push you out sooner, I’d say it’s unlikely, and but you will have given them some extra time to get your role covered reasonably well.

      Of course, if you know that they will push you out the door immediately, then wait till much closer in to give them notice.

  86. Sadie Doyle*

    My team has been chipping away at a huge backlog project for six months, and for the first time, the end feels like it’s in sight! This function is being automated in the near future, so it’s always been my goal to complete it before then, to avoid having to do a big cleanup project, and it looks like we’ll be able to! Now I just need to find new things for us to do — this has been taking up about 70% of our time, so without it there’s going to be a big gap in our workload. There’s always projects, though, as the company sets new goals and progresses, so I’m not too worried.

  87. Brett*

    Work from home day today as the ice storm has hit us.
    Amazed at how much work I am getting done without as many meetings and people asking me questions in between meetings.

    1. AnonEMoose*

      So with you – it is so much easier to concentrate when I work from home for these very reasons! The biggest distraction I have at home is when one of the cats decides “You Will Pet Me. NOW.” or “I Will Sit On You. NOW.”

  88. SophieChotek*

    I’ve read that layoffs (often done to save money when a business is losing money) often does not really solve the issue. Generally the morale is low after a layoff and those left have to do 2x or more the work for the same amount of pay. Do you agree? disagree? have you seen a time when these layoffs were good/not so bad? Or when businesses recover and can hire staff back again?

    Company I work for has laid off about 25% of its staff and combined offices to save money.
    I’ve heard that some of my coworkers have to work 12 hour days now and one of the managers who used to work in a different office, but now is at the main office walks around the office each day at 6pm or so to ensure everyone is (still) “working” and presumably didn’t leave early. (So glad I work in a different office!)

    Just depressed/sad hearing from my colleagues.

    And yes, I’m looking for a new job…but had no luck. Plus I’d love to get to 2 years if I could but I’d probably take a new job if I get an offer.

    1. Veteran of many layoffs*

      In my experience, layoffs only created more problems. In my last job, half the staff was laid off due to low sales. I kept my job, but we then had to do twice as much work as before, but with no increase in hours (all hourly and there was no budget for OT). This was, of course, impossible, and what fell through the cracks were any tasks that had to do with generating more sales. Because we didn’t have enough people to keep up with the orders that we DID get.

      So sales kept falling, we lost customers because we couldn’t keep up with order volume with that small of a staff, rinse, repeat. It became this huge cycle of BAD and the company ended up going out of business.

      I guess that if everyone had been exempt, we could’ve made it work by just working massive amounts of unpaid OT, but that wasn’t the case.

      1. SophieChotek*

        sadly for my colleagues (and me) everyone is exempt…so we just have to keep putting in more hours to keep up. For instance, there used to be 4 secretaries, now there is only one.

    2. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      My SO’s old job was notorious for laying off people when they were having trouble with money/losing clients, but would then turn around and hire new people if they brought on new clients. It seemed to me that the people running the business made impossible requests of the staff. My SO, in a director level role, would sometimes work from 8:00 AM to 3:00 AM the next morning, come home to sleep for a few hours and then return to work. I was so glad when he left that place.

    3. H.C.*

      There is the Netflix HR article (including the much touted PowerPoint of its work culture expectations) where its then-HR chief said that layoffs were a good thing since it took out most of the mediocre workers, leaving only A-level rockstars (& when business boomed later, vacancies to fill with more rockstars.)

      https://hbr.org/2014/01/how-netflix-reinvented-hr

      Of course, that are also articles from disgruntled current/ex-Netflix employees who said this fueled a culture of unreasonable expecations, where everyone & every team is desperate to show off their A-game – leading to unreasonable project expecations, high turnovers, regular grunt work being neglected & diminished quality of life.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Generally speaking, no.

      There certainly are times when it is appropriate to lay off people. For example when there has been a significant drop in business and income. OTOH, when, and if, business improves the business will be short-handed and it will take a while for new hires to be trained and get up to speed to the point where things are running smoothly and profitably again.

      When there are layoffs morale takes a big hit and the survivors who are tasked with increased workloads will start looking to jump ship.

    5. Harold*

      I’ve worked for a large company for a very long time, and I’ve seen quite a few rounds of layoffs over the years. It seems that the deciders use a different technique each time to choose the ones to cut.

      One time they dropped projects or lines of business, whole, along with their personnel. That meant that no work was shifted to the remaining folks, but it only works when there are clearly identifiable underperforming sections.

      One time they cut evenly throughout the company, to be “fair.” That meant that groups full of high performers lost as many as groups with low performers; not fair if you’re a high performer in the wrong place.

      One time they cut “support” people, which meant that support-type functions now fall on the non-support folks, which means either extra work or stuff that just doesn’t get done. Because “anyone” can do support functions, and they don’t directly affect the bottom line. Sigh.

  89. Catz*

    How do you deal with a crappy manager who doesn’t communicate well? When I bring up problems, she almost always tells me that’s just the way things are, but really she just hates conflict. She constantly springs last minute work on me that tanks my productivity for the rest of the week. She doesn’t care about deadlines and no matter how much time you give her, waits until the last minute to deal with projects. The only way to get her input or sign off on projects is to physically sit with her in her office and review the material, with constant digressions into office gossip or personal information.

    I am a high performer and my CEO values me. I was recently promoted (that I asked for) but as my workload has increased my manager’s roadblocks have become increasingly frustrating! I’m ready to pull my hair out, but I also don’t want to leave as I just got promoted.

    Bit of a vent, but I’d still love advice!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have had good bosses who did not focus or stay on track.
      I developed a bunch of go-to’s that I use.

      “I reeeally need you to sign this. I can’t keep working until you sign it.”

      “Okay we are getting off track here and I need to watch my time. Can we go back to X? We were talking about choice a or b, which do we want to pick? If we decide then I can finish up X.”

      “Well, that is too bad about Sally. I am sorry to hear that. Getting back to Y, do you need that this week or next week?”

      “I see you need B done by Thursday. I will do that and get it done by then. But just for your general info, B takes two weeks to do. I need more lead time. Although I will get B done on time, I must let go of c, d, e and f to do it. This hurts us in the long run.”

      These are some of my reusable sentences that I say. And I just keep saying them over and over.
      This may or may not work. I have had some bosses who have no idea of time frames. They do not know how to figure out how long something will take. Usually going hand-in-hand with this problem, they are chatty Cathies or Charlies. They have no idea how much time they lose in idyll chatter. And when they will spend hours on something that only merits 15 minutes of their time. Even worse I have had bosses lie, “It only took NSNR 20 minutes to do this [3 hours] worth of work, how come it is taking everyone else so long.” [Blatant lie.] All you can do with all these things is remind them that you have time constraints.

  90. Annie*

    I’m currently off on maternity leave (3 months into my 12 month leave) and received an email from my boss (cc’ing my boss’s boss) requesting a call with me. I’m worried that during this call, I’ll be laid off, for a variety of reasons – including (1) the fact that we were due to hear about a major grant around this time, without which I doubt the organization will have funding to keep me on, (2) the overall precarious funding situation of the organization, as they have let us know that layoffs may be necessary around March of this year, (3) the fact that they are requesting a call without indicating what it might be about and (4) my boss’s tone in the email – professional but curt and non-responsive to pleasantries.

    My question – I will obviously try to act as professional as possible and not be upset or take it personally, but is there anything in particular I should be asking about or saying in response to the news, should it happen? I’ve never been laid off before so I’m not sure how to respond! This is my first professional job and I’ve been there for 6 years; I’ve never received any major negative feedback but I recognize that my job could probably be divided up between other employees (as has already been done for my leave).

    I recognize I may be jumping the gun quite a bit here, but I just want to be prepared for all options – and I have a nagging gut feeling that it’s just not a positive reason for this call.

  91. Stellar*

    For anyone working in the clinical research field in the US: is it more usual to apply with a resume or CV? This is aimed more at CRAs, project managers, coordinators, or other non-laboratory positions. I’m starting to look around in order to move out of my entry level position, but job postings I’ve seen don’t specify. I had to create a CV for my current employer to provide to clients, but originally applied with a resume.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      For a private company, go with the resume unless a CV is specifically requested. Academia, go with the CV. For government jobs, I have no idea.

      1. Champagne_Dreams*

        Source: I worked in administration at a CRO for 6 years, left 2 years ago. We always used CV’s. Because clinical research has its roots in academia and so many of the people who work for CRO’s are published, CV’s are the norm for that industry. My boss’ CV (president of a major business unit) was something like 10 pages long.

  92. Nervous Accountant*

    Happy (belated) new Year! I just came back from vacation this week.

    I came back to:
    -My lovely coworkers all asked how my trip was. Everyone enjoyed the treats I brought.
    -My manager informing me that I “should have been forwarding emails to my support staff rather than assume clients will reach out”….so if a client was upset that I was away, despite having my auto reply message on stating that I’m not available and my teammates contact information is there FOR THEM TO CONTACT, it’s my fault….hooray!

    -Realizing that some of my team either made no attempt or have no recollection of speaking to the clients who DID reach out.. so again my fault for not “realizing that support1’s strengths do NOT lie in maintaining client relationships so I should not have expected him to help with this” and/or not training the rest of the team properly.

    -Oh and best part was a client who literally screamed at me that how dare I go on vacation in January.

    Only 95 days to go. :-)

    1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

      Nervous Accountant:

      Congrats on taking time for yourself to decompress and unwind! Goodness knows, you need it.

      Also, thanks for being so thoughtful as to bring tasty treats back for your co-workers. You get a virtual gold star from me, anonymous internet commenter, for your efforts.

      My sympathies for the weird placement of blame for your clients’ misunderstanding of your appropriate out-of-office message and the lazy support staff who could not be bothered to step up in your absence and help with maintaining/growing client relationships. Your boss sounds awful, by the way.

      Lastly, congrats on the mental countdown! Only 95 days to go!

  93. Ann O'Nemity*

    Has anyone managed their former boss? (Or the reverse – anyone been a subordinate of their former manager?) I’d appreciate any advice.

    1. Biff*

      I did some managing up, because I had to. I don’t think that’s quite what you mean. Depending on the circumstances I can see how it would be awkward. But it might not be awkward at all. For instance, if your previous boss had left the market for a few years, and now has to catch up (that is, while your boss was out one medical leave, you ascended two levels from where you were), I think that would be ripe for awkwardness. But if it’s been five years, and you’ve both been different places, and now you are a superior… less awkward.

      Regardless, I think you should acknowledge that they were once on the other side of the desk, and then say that you mean to treat them fairly, like you would anyone under your wing. I think you should also provide info on how you evaluate employees and how you handle issues, so they don’t just assume you do things like they did. If they have a serious issue, and you know it is going to continue to be a problem, I’d nip it in the bud right now. “Tory, I know that when you were last here, you almost always took off on Thursday afternoon to make your tee-time at the golf course. I expect you to be here until closing on all days.” (But be very sure that this is still an issue before doing this.)

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Here’s some details – I reported to my old boss for a year before getting transferred to a different department. I’ve gotten quick promotions and they’ve stayed in the same position.

        I agree that a candid conversation acknowledging the situation is a good first step.

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Not my favorite boss, but not bad. He was very cautious and reactive instead of proactive – more of a foot-on-the-brakes type. But he was also personable and professional. We didn’t have previous beef or drama :)

  94. Dee-Nice*

    I see a lot of questions about people worrying that they’ve been in a job too short a time. But what if you’ve been doing a job for too long? I’m mid-30s, higher ed admin assistant. In my 20s, I used the job as a base to check out a few different Masters programs (just classes, not degrees, though I earned a few certificates), and had a few side gigs here and there. The hours and benefits are great. Pay is just okay, but I’ve never been super ambitious in that way. I’m in the middle of growing my family via Baby-Making and the stability and flexibility I have right now are things I don’t want to trade in. I also don’t have hobbies/talents that match up to an obvious, decently-paying career path, so I’ve been okay with spending weekdays doing what is a pretty boring, mostly stress-free job. But I worry that down the road, if I want to advance, employers will see I’ve been an assistant on and off for over 10 years and think I’m not capable of doing anything else. Anyone have any thoughts on this as either a manager or assistant?

    1. Temperance*

      I would probably assume that you wanted to be an assistant if you’ve been doing it that long. Have you thought about pursuing a master’s program with your tuition assistance?

      1. Dee-Nice*

        Oh yeah. The timing isn’t right now because of family stuff, but I’ve thought about just picking a topic I’m interested in and getting a degree just to have a degree. It will probably happen some time in the next five years.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      Exact same boat re: stability and flexibility and family stuff.
      Not sure if you’re already there, but sending good vibes your way!

    3. Mockingjay*

      What about course certificates? They are usually short-term studies (weeks or months), and there are certs in every field I can think of.

      It’s a nice way to keeps skills fresh without the commitment of a Masters program. Pick carefully; like all learning programs, some cert courses are worth more than others.

    4. Academia Escapee*

      I don’t think it’s the job title that will haunt you, it’s the field. I was a higher ed admin for 8 years (supporting a dean). When I moved out of state and tried to go into private sector, I actually had recruiters tell me that company reps wouldn’t consider my candidacy due to my tenure in higher ed. I wanted to scream, “That makes me more valuable! In higher ed (especially public universities), you have to do so much more with so much less! Valuable skill there!” It was frustrating and I know it took me longer to land a private sector gig than it would have if so much of my resume hadn’t been higher ed.

      I’ve been an assistant in some capacity (Jr. assistant to executive assistant) for the past 25+ years. If someone is looking for good support staff, they’re going to be happy to see the experience. Just try to make it progressively responsible (or at least look that way). Try to take on tasks that you don’t have now to show growth when you do look for a different gig.

  95. Master Bean Counter*

    I’m looking for a new project management software that includes POs, budget tracking and light financial reporting. Anybody have anything good that they use? Is this something that can be done with Microsoft Project?

    Thanks!

  96. Shawna*

    Can anyone recommend an app that provides motivation/reward for productivity? I’m envisioning some kind of to-do system where, upon crossing off an item, there is some sort of satisfying sound (or flashing light, or something). Ideally the extent of the sound/image could correspond to the odiousness of the task ….

    I’ve searched the app store to no avail and would welcome any ideas!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Wunderlist will play a sound when you click the task off, but I have another suggestion which may play better to your need for positive reinforcement here. For awhile, we were motivating ourselves to do chores at home using an app called “OurHome”, which includes repeating tasks and one-off tasks.* There are similar “chore” apps out there, and the reason I’m suggesting them is that part of the setup includes a rewards system. So as you do/click off each task, you build points towards a defined reward. You decide how many points it takes to get the reward, you decide how many points each task is worth. You can define more than one reward and “claim” the one you want. Which could be anything from treating yourself to a massage or baked treat to permission to sleep in on a weekend when you would normally need to be up and about and getting stuff done, etc.

      *We stopped because my husband got really really sick and last year was a bit hellish and we never got back on the wagon. We should probably do something about that…

    2. Emi.*

      Would Habitica/HabitRPG do the trick? It’s set up like an RPG so you can earn gold and level up for doing your assigned tasks, and you can then spend gold on permission to do things like watch TV. It’s designed specifically for things you want to do as habits, which may or may not jive with how your work goes.

    3. anonamasaurus*

      There’s a feature in ASANA that will randomly send a shooting unicorn/narwhal across your screen as you complete tasks. I find it rather satisfying.

  97. Tuckerman*

    I know that generally, you don’t want to talk about your spouse during the hiring process, but my husband and I plan to move to his home state in a couple months. I’m applying for work in a new industry (just finished a Master’s degree) so I anticipate that will make it even more difficult to get hired in an area where I don’t live currently. So that the hiring committee understands I have connections to their area (and do really plan to move there), should I mention that my husband has a job/family/friends there? If it matters, the state we plan to move to is big on family values.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “Don’t talk about your spouse in an interview” doesn’t mean that you can’t mention them when it’s directly relevant to the question. Of course you can say that you’re moving there because it’s your husband’s home state!

  98. KS*

    It is very likely that in the next few months I’ll be moving back to the general area in which my parents live. I’ll be taking a job in a pretty small town in a very community-facing role, and a large part of the job involves building community partnerships and visibility for the organization.

    I’m excited about the move and the job, but I’m trying to figure out where I should live. A big part of me thinks that I should live right in town where I’ll be visible and clearly part of the community, but I’m moving from a pretty big city and it’s going to be a bit of a culture shock. I could also live in a small city about 20 minutes away and commute in, or in a different small town nearby.

    I’ve been weighing the pros and cons. Price isn’t a factor. Anyone have any experience with being the local doctor/librarian/vet/whatever and living near where you work? Is it a good thing or bad thing to run into people at the grocery store? I suspect it can be both, but I’m not sure how to weight it.

    1. Manders*

      My mother-in-law is a rabbi who doesn’t keep kosher in a small town, and she has to travel several towns over every time she wants to eat shellfish at a restaurant. Most of her congregation doesn’t keep kosher either, but she’s afraid that some of them would be disappointed to see their rabbi enjoying some shrimp scampi.

      It’s a bit different since she’s a religious leader, but do keep in mind that if you’re the one person who does your job in a small town, everything even remotely job-related that you do in public is going to be seen and judged by your clients.

    2. Temperance*

      I’ve never had that direct experience, but I live in a suburb of a large city and grew up in a very small town in PA. I’m a huge city fan, and love my suburb, but I hate the culture of small towns.

      Personally, I would like the anonymity of my suburb/city over the “everyone knows me” notoriety of being the local doctor/librarian/vet. I think that could feel smothery and kind of annoying, especially because then you have to always be “on”. I also selfishly would vastly prefer access to the culture, restaurants, bars, and services offered in a small city vs. those in a small town. I like being able to go to happy hour at a place that isn’t a super country bar or firehouse, you know? (This may be specific to where I grew up, FWIW.)

            2. Temperance*

              Plus, picture a bar full of serious misogynist, uneducated hicks who just make rude, stupid comments and talk about how much they hate X group. Seriously the worst people you can imagine, drinkign the worst beer you can imagine ;)

    3. SophieChotek*

      What KS said — is it a good thing or bad thing to run into people? Will they try to get you to “work” when they run into you? Like say you’re a doctor — “oh my son just hurt his X…” and want an on-the-spot assessment versus coming in during normal office hours.

      I have friends that are teachers (HS) one lived quite far from the disturb where she taught and another lived nearby; they both discussed issues about having your HS student ring you up for feminine products when you go shopping sort of thing, and the one that lived several school districts over said she was glad she never had to worry about that situation (or hardly ever) or conflicts if kids were on same sports teams, etc.

      1. Manders*

        Yes, working with kids creates a whole new level of complications. My husband is a teacher who works near his school, and he’s very lucky that his school is ok with staff being seen at bars.

        He was considering a job in a small town where he would not only live on school grounds, he would have to have student meetings in his own home. I was really uncomfortable with the idea of having to keep the inside of my house and my public behavior up to the standards of a private religious high school, and I wouldn’t even have been the one working at that school.

        It gets complicated fast when kids, and especially their parents, have that kind of window into your personal life while you also have a professional duty to behave a certain way around them.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you deal with the public in a rural area it takes about 2 hours to pick up several things at the grocery store and get to the checkout line. You can spend 45 minutes just in the produce department. Most of the people stop to tell you that they are amazed at how many people they know who are shopping for groceries. It takes a while to tell you this.

      It can be annoying if you have to hurry thought the store. But people can understand that you are rushing some where.

      I will say. There is a doc who does not have the best reputation. It does her no favors that when she grocery shops she ignores everyone. This only hurts her, it does not help her- very important thing to know.

      Part of the rural life is being sociable. I have to laugh though. When I go to the bigger towns around me I can still run into people that I know. So there is no way to totally avoid it.

  99. SJ*

    a giant cockroach ran across my desk earlier yeeeeeuuuccchhhhh

    It ran away and then reappeared, and luckily we were able to crush it with a big box of letterhead I had just ordered for my coworker. But now I’m nervously glancing around my desk every two seconds, waiting for another one to appear.

    Happy Friday to me!

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      That would kill my concentration and productivity. Potentially for days. Cockroaches are a crunchy pile of nope.

        1. SJ*

          Right? Both my bosses are at a meeting and I was tempted to jokingly email them and say that they should run back and get any valuables out of their offices because I was about to light the place up.

    2. Partly Cloudy*

      Gross! I once lifted a small stack of papers from an in-basket on my desk to find a cockroach peering back at me, waving his feelers. [shudder]

      1. SJ*

        UGH, that’s the worst. You grow so suspicious of every nook and cranny on your desk. What if there’s one hiding behind my coffee mug?! (this guy ran underneath my keyboard!)

    3. SophieChotek*

      ugh! In the office where I worked (at HQ, now a different office) I was told to NEVER leave any food out, ever (even if factory wrapped, like an unopened bag of potato chips) because mice and rats would come out night. And I saw cockroaches too…ugh

      1. Strategy Manager*

        The mice problem seems universal in London offices. My last one they had a serious problem in the lawyer area (open plan of course) – but those people were always leaving food out. We even had building service where someone would come around picking up the tea mugs and left out glasses and dishes at the end of the day to load in the dishwasher. Nope, still had mice. New office they HAD a mice problem but dont anymore and no one leaves food out, which is a nice change!

    4. The Other Dawn*

      Ew, gross! I haven’t had anything run across my desk, but I often get stink bugs in my office for some reason. I can hear them land on the blinds and the lighting fixtures, which causes me to be really paranoid that one will decide to fly around and land on me and it totally messes up my concentration until I can kill it. They sound like a bee when they fly. They’re not harmful, they just freak me out. And they wave their feelers around, too.

      1. SJ*

        I’m actually okay with stinkbugs! I live in an area with lots of them, so I’m used to seeing them all over my apartment a few times a year (they can fit in the TINIEST cracks, and my windows/screens are old). It’s super annoying to hear them buzzing all over, though, and a few times I’ve had one fly right past my face and I get all flail-y.

        I was actually telling my coworker while we were hunting the cockroach that I’m okay with most bugs — I used to kill spiders for my 6’2 brother all the time when we were both living at home! This cockroach was just HUGE, like the size of a small car, and seeing it scurry across my desk freaked me out.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      A giant, massive, hairy bug once landed on my keyboard. I believe it fell from the ceiling. I SCREAMED (and I am not afraid of bugs). One of the sales VPs, who is about 7 feet tall (not an exaggeration), laughed and crawled under my tiny desk to get the thing. He threw it out and went about his day, big smile on his face. This was about 10 years ago, and that man is now the head of sales for the entire division of this massive, global conglomerate, and I still think he is one of the nicest, most humble guys I’ve ever known.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’m impressed with this guy.

        In a similar vein, my crew abandoned their work area one day. One of them told me there was a large hairy spider in the area. Not having anything to hit with and being a little perturbed I walked over and took off my shoe to hit it.

        My boss got it for me. He was amused not angry. I was impressed there, too.

    6. NW Mossy*

      Years ago, we had a mouse problem in the office I worked in and they set down a glue trap in the back corner of my workspace. Sure enough, came in one morning to find that a mouse was trapped and died.

      Because I am a terrible person, I nicknamed him Morty and let his tiny mouse corpse sit there until facilities came to remove it.

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      OMG I would have flipped out. I was once at work and a freaking hornet the size of a small plane dive-bombed my desk and then disappeared over the cubicle wall. I yelled, “Holy crap what the hell was that??” pretty loudly. I could plot its path through the office based upon the direction the next yelp of, “WTF is that??” came from.

      While working at home once, a wasp came flying out from behind the window blinds. It was November, so I didn’t understand how it was still alive to begin with. I shrieked, and texted my husband (probably in all caps) that THERE WAS A WASP IN HERE. He texted back asking me what he was supposed to do about it. It was a reasonable question, since he was at work. I finally went and got the vacuum and sucked it up. Then I put the vacuum in the garage because I was sure it was in there, plotting its revenge.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I was the spider handler in my first apartment, but I was out of town the weekend the frakking Balrog took up residence on our deck. My arachnophobic roommates had to call a much braver friend to come handle it for them.

      2. Drew*

        I’m a big dude and wasps are a big pile of NOPE RUNNING AWAY NOW for me. I am finally getting over my bee phobia and accepting that most of them really don’t care about me because I’m not a flower, but whenever there’s a wasp anywhere near me, it seems to recognize that I am spheksophobic and delight in tormenting me.

        (Yes, I looked that up.)

      3. Elizabeth West*

        At OldExjob, we had mud daubers around the front entryway and they would sometimes get inside. I did this and everybody thought I was awesome:

        Keep a can of cheap hairspray handy (Aqua Net works great for this). Instead of spraying poison at the wasp or flailing at it, follow it until it lands and then douse it with the hairspray. The spray makes its wings stick together and it will drop to the floor, where you can stomp on it.

        You’re welcome.

    8. Chaordic One*

      Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. there were box elder trees in the courtyard and boxelder bugs all throughout the building. They kind of look like cockroaches with red or orange spots. The building was built in the late 80s and won a bunch of design awards, but it is very badly constructed, badly insulated (especially around windows) and extremely energy inefficient. I think the bugs were crawling through cracks around the windows.

  100. Abc*

    So I’m starting a new role at my job–more of a lateral move than a promotion but I’m excited nonetheless. It’s slightly awkward though because the person who is training me is widely disliked by everyone on my new team, including the team leader. Apparently my trainer slacks off a lot and is always the last one to come in and the first one to go home. The problem is, I can’t help but like Trainer. They’ve been nothing but kind and encouraging to me and I’ve received plenty of constructive feedback that has been really helpful.

    I’ve been trying to stay neutral, but every evening when Trainer leaves (early, of course) the griping from my new coworkers starts up.

    1. tigerStripes*

      I used to have a co-worker who seemed like delightful until you had to actually work with or near him for days and days and days on end. He came off as a nice person, but I kept doubting that anyone nice would try to get away with as little work as he did, especially since that meant more work for the rest of us. Maybe they just know aspects of the trainer that you don’t.

  101. NoMoreLurking2017*

    Right. I am in a situation and AAM readers maybe you can help me decide what is best to do…

    So I am woefully underpaid at my job. The office is toxic. The office is small (7 of us including the two bosses).

    In August I got a new job elsewhere and handed in 4 weeks notice, even though verbally I and Boss1, whom I shall call Steven, and I had verbally discussed a notice period of 3 months to be included in my new contract of employment. The contract had never appeared. In any event, Steven was annoyed and betrayed by the fact that I didn’t give the full 3 months (rightly or wrongly, that’s not what the issue is here).

    Fast forward three weeks and 3.5 days, I get a call from the new job basically laying me off. It was my second last day at the office. I went to Steven and Boss2, whom I shall call Larry, and basically begged for my job back. Steven and Larry didn’t want to because they felt betrayed by me but were swayed by my friend coworker who basically told them they hadn’t hired anyone and what did they have to lose.

    When discussing this with Steven and Larry, Steven said to me that he knew I had been job searching and would have had more respect for me if I had told him I was doing it and why (money! They literally do not pay me enough to pay my rent). They also gave me a small raise.

    Fast forward to now, I have made efforts to shape up as an employee after slacking off during my notice period. I can no longer put off getting a new job for financial reasons.

    I want to have a conversation with them and basically say “can you give me a raise because if not I need to look for another job”. I can’t pin either Steven (who I really need to talk to) or Larry down to talk about it. I need to start looking.

    Should I just start looking (despite the comment Steven made to me back when I got my job back about telling them) or wait until I can finally have this conversation? I am 99% certain they won’t agree to a raise, or at least not as much of a raise as I need (NB I am looking for a raise to match market rate for my job and experience level).

    I really am quite conflicted about this. I have just managed to repair the relationship.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Steven is a pinhead who you should not listen to. If you’re that woefully underpaid the reason you’re looking is completely obvious and there’s no need for this song and dance about why you’re looking. At most you can tell Steven that you’ve started looking (after going ahead and doing it) but based on his previous crap, would you trust him not to shove you out the door before you find something new?

    2. Biff*

      I hate to ask, but…. can you give us an idea of your finances? As in, “I’m paying average rent for a studio apt/two bedroom apt.” Or, “I have a huge student loan payment.” Since you just got a raise, I find it a little odd that you can’t even pay rent. Something doesn’t pass the sniff test here.

      Here’s why I ask — a lot of times it’s a job that is trying to get away with paying something ludicrous for the area. It steams my clams when I see that. BUT, sometimes I see people trying to live a lifestyle that their job was never intended to cover. Or, they are trying to maintain a standard of living that they had in a much lower-cost location, but can’t keep up with in a bigger city. Even if you aren’t doing those things, we might see some ways to give you some breathing room/time to get your feet under you.

      As for your job. If they are dramatically underpaying you I think you really need to address it with local data/salary information in hand. If they really don’t care, I think you need to decide to not care about them. What is their reputation in your area? “Oh, Dweedle and Doodle is a great place to work, but don’t expect to eat unless your spouse makes money?” — If that’s the case, most people will understand if you don’t get a stellar reference for quitting because you needed to make rent. If it’s “Oh, Dweedle and Doodle are the best at their game, and we all wish we could do as well” — then you have a bigger problem with burned bridges.

      1. NoMoreLurking2017*

        I am married and living in a two bedroom apt in the suburbs, paying a little under market rent. I work in the centre of one of the largest cities in the world. It’s not possible to move to a cheaper place because frankly this is something like 4th on the list of most expensive cities in the world, and since we started renting our apartment rents in the area have gone up so much that we are paying the same as a 1 bed for a 2 bed, but if we could we would.

        A few years ago my grandma died and left me some money. My husband is a student and gets student loan payments. My inheritance has been supplementing my salary (read: paying half of the rent, my salary covers expenses only and I do not live extravagantly) until early last year, when it ran out. We have been struggling ever since.

        I expected to be earning market rate at least by now ($20,000 more than what I am making) which would mean we could make ends meet. The firm is tiny but located where it is it should be able to pay above market rate, but it doesn’t. Not to any employee. It’s not even a great place to work. The clients are abusive, the bosses are abusive, the work is taking me towards a specialism I don’t want to go for. But it’s all I have right now.

        This is my only place of work in my field on my resume as I worked retail between college and this (it took me 4 years to get a job in my degree field!), and if I don’t get a good reference that really won’t help me.

        I am inclined to just say eff it and go for other jobs, but I think once I start interviewing it will be obvious, and if in the mean time I can get a raise here that would help. I am down to selling treasured possessions on eBay right now.

        1. Biff*

          That sounds like the situation a lot of folks are in down in SF. I’d tell you to look into moving out of the area, so that you’d not do as much damage burning the bridge with your current employer — it sounds like you are going to have to burn it.

    3. fposte*

      If you just got a raise in August and you had a rocky relationship and some slacking off this year, I wouldn’t ask again now. I would just look for another job since it’s clearly time for that anyway, and you don’t want to stay with these people even if you get more money.

      1. Gaara*

        Agree.

        The only reason to tell them is to avoid the present situation, only next time, them not being willing to hire you back. But, well, typically if you get a job offer, and you accept it, it doesn’t disappear a couple days before your start date. I’d just write off this experience as atypical shitty luck and do the normal thing: conduct a silent job search and take a better job when you get an offer.

        1. NoMoreLurking2017*

          I actually have the worst luck when it comes to jobs. It took me 4 years working retail before I got this job in my degree field. But, yes, you are right, that’s not normal behaviour and my dad actually wanted to sue the company that let me go.

          I dodged a bullet actually on that one, as I have since read terrible glassdoor reviews of the company I was due to move to.

      2. NoMoreLurking2017*

        Thank you! I am inclined to do that but I actually find myself feeling guilty for wanting to start looking out of some misplaced sense of loyalty or something.

  102. Mishsmom*

    hi everyone, i have a sensitive question about people with disabilities. i work as a graduate admin and the other day someone needing information about our program came to see me. the way it works here is that the visitor comes to the front office, and they let me know there is someone to see me. i go and get that person and walk them back to my office. also, my office is TINY. i love it, but it’s TINY. there is room for one chair for one person to sit across from me and that chair has to be moved in order to close the door kind of tiny. so when i got to the lobby i saw this person was in a motorized wheelchair. instead of asking him to come back to my office i sat down there and spoke with him in our lobby area (our lobby is small and no one else was there, and really it’s a standard convo with no private stuff usually). my thinking was that the hallway is narrow, my office will not accommodate his chair (which is something to think about really… but that’s for another time), and i did not want to inconvenience him. afterwards i thought perhaps i should have asked him to come back there anyway because he might feel like he was treated differently, even though (unbeknownst to him) it could be logistically awkward (as in he’d have to be in the hall while i was speaking with him from my office). can anyone chime in on what you would have done, your experience, insight? my goal is of course for everyone who comes through my office to feel welcome and respected, so i’m just here to learn. thanks and happy friday :)

    1. fposte*

      I think what you should have done is been given an office that will accommodate students in wheelchairs. An awkward and difficult shoehorning into an office would have had the same problems as meeting in the lobby, so I think your choice was fine given the circumstances.

      But I would use this as a moment to raise the issue about your office and note that it’s going to be difficult to claim to accommodate disabled students in good faith if their most basic inquiries are an obvious difficulty.

    2. Temperance*

      I work with PWD somewhat regularly. What I would have done is asked whether he was comfortable chatting in the lobby, or gotten a conference room, with the caveat that it’s very easy for me to get a conference room.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Give him the choice “Normally I ask people to come back to my office to talk, but it’s tiny and your chair won’t fit in the room so you’d end up having to talk to me from the hallway. Would you mind if we talked here?” Also – is there another office/conference room you could borrow for situations like this?

    4. HannahS*

      Are you in a university? If you are, and you’re realizing that your office isn’t accessible, it’s an issue that the university really should know about. The lobby was empty this time, but that might not always be true! Talk to your supervisor if you have one.

      Also, universities tend to have disability offices (for students with disabilities) and human rights offices (where students can file complaints). If your office manager/supervisor/whoever doesn’t take the issue of accessibility seriously, you can talk to them and ask for guidance.

    5. Mishsmom*

      thanks! this is very helpful, and Fposte you are right. this is something i was not aware of until this happened. just to clarify, this is not a student, it’s a visitor – someone who was interested in the program and showed up in the middle of the day.

  103. MegaMoose, Esq*

    Over the last few months, I applied for three jobs. One I never heard back from, but I interviewed for and was rejected by the other two. Over the last month, all three jobs have re-posted additional openings: the one I never heard back from posted the exact same job description, while the other two posted the same jobs with slightly different areas of responsibility. Two of these are state employers and one is a county office.

    These jobs tend to come open around the same time every year and I’ve interviewed for them multiple times in the past, but I’m wondering if I should bother this time since the posting was so close to my most recent interview. And if I do apply, should I change my application materials? The changes in responsibility aren’t really relevant (these are jobs where background experience is desired but not required) so there’s not much I can do to refocus.

    1. Nonprofit to Govt.*

      MegaMoose, Esq:

      A friend of mine recently interviewed and was a finalist for a city communications position. She didn’t get the job, received a standard rejection letter, but she did follow-up afterward to ask for feedback on how to improve her candidacy. The HR director responded with honest feedback about her test scores and the quality of her writing, which she appreciated and has since been working to improve.

      Could you perhaps write the HR department of one of the prospective employers and ask about your previous interviewing? Given that you recently interviewed, you may receive feedback.

      Please don’t give up hope. Sometimes there’s a lot of bureaucratic hangups behind the scenes that prevent someone from being hired. If you’re repeatedly being invited for interviews, you are qualified. It’s just a cultural mismatch or some paperwork issue.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thanks NtG – it is very discouraging to be asked to interview so regularly but not quite get there. I’ve tried to get feedback in the past and not had much luck, but maybe it would be worth trying again. I think the main issue is that these are highly desirable jobs with very broad qualifications, so they get lots of applicants with all kinds of backgrounds, and while I’ve been near enough to the top to keep getting asked back, I just haven’t hit that right combo where I’m the best choice.

    2. Claudia M.*

      Govt. jobs usually have a very specific idea of what they want in response to their questions. They’ve never clear about this either.

      For example: if they ask you about a time you showed leadership, they want you to relate that example to what your new position would be, not just tell them the prior example.

      And they typically want an example from recent work experience, less so from prior work places or outside of the job.

      And they want something as it related to the job duties posted for the position you’re applying for.

      And some govt. positions won’t give you anything really helpful as far as feedback directly, but it never hurts to ask. Ask the hiring parties directly, however. Not all HR units are involved in the interviewing process, and may only handle the hiring paperwork.

      For the record, I work in State govt. in CA and have sat through multiple hiring interviews. It is hard to be on both sides of that table (I’m looking to promote again and upper-level panel interviews are no joke, let me tell you), because the judgment for hiring is based on the desires of the unit and management at that time.

      I do wish you luck! I’ve managed to mock-interview multiple family members into State service. Maybe you could find a family member who would help you?

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        For example: if they ask you about a time you showed leadership, they want you to relate that example to what your new position would be, not just tell them the prior example.

        That’s really helpful! Perhaps people with more interview experience would do this automatically, but I hadn’t thought about it that way and would have answered the question actually asked. When interviewers are constricted to ask only the questions on their preapproved list, candidates want to volunteer as much as possible!

        1. Claudia M.*

          I’m glad it’s helpful!

          The reasoning, I think, is that if your example is something related to apple farming, and you’re applying for teapot sales, that they want to know how your apple farming example will be useful in teapot sales.

          Some interviewees will have great answers for these questions, but if you can’t explain how the skill you acquired in apple farming will be beneficial to the new position in teapot sales, then the concept loses it’s strength.

          Honestly, almost all of our interviews are scored based on this. And many strong candidates simply do not sell their skills as applicable to the new position.

      2. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thank you, I will keep that in mind! HR has generally not been involved for the positions I’ve interviewed for, so I definitely wouldn’t be barking up that tree, but hiring attorneys generally have other stuff on their plate. I’m going to have to think about how to approach that aspect, if at all. I don’t really have any family members who I’d trust to help out, but it might be worth reaching out to some law school classmates and see if anyone’s got any interview-specific suggestions – I seem to have largely gotten cover letters down pat, at least.

  104. Contract Manager Trying To Go In House*

    InHouse attorney on the “How Much Do You Make” thread said something of interest to me about transferring back out of contracts and into inhouse work and I wanted to talk more to this person. Are you a regular/commenter/can you comment here?

  105. my first post*

    I am new to the working world (first job after college, second job ever, been here for 6 months now) and my company has lots of norms and practices that differ from what I have heard about here and in other places.

    To give some context there are 3 offices – a call center, an email center (email service instead of phones) and headquarters where the board of directors, the HR department, payroll etc. are located. About 400-450 employees total. The company provides customer service for a certain product/service over the phone or by email

    Some examples:

    -the company doesn’t use recruiters and won’t have anything to do with them. They do their own hiring with their own HR department and no middle man is involved. They refuse to work with recruiters

    -the person from HR who is in charge of all hiring for the company has the title of ‘Hiring Manager’. It’s on his name plate, business card, email signature and in the company directory

    -new hires don’t meet their manager until their first day. HR handles all the hiring and only they deal with people until their first day

    -you interview at headquarters even if your job is for the call or email center. There are no phone screens or multiple interviews. For everyone else besides the board the interview process has one interview that’s about 30-40 in length

    -the HR department and the head of HR report directly to the board of directors and have no other oversight

    -everyone except for the board of directors (including management) is hourly and non-exempt and are not allowed to work more than 35 hours a week

    -the call center has phones on their desk but no outgoing calls are allowed except for 911. No exceptions. People who use work phones to call anyone besides 911 are subject to discipline.

    -the email center and headquarters (except for the board of directors don’t have phones on their desk). Managers have phones on their desk and there are a few phones on the wall around the offices but they are for 911 use only. Managers can make outgoing calls to call the board of directors or other managers for work stuff but they can’t make personal calls either. If a manager uses a work phone to dial a non-company number besides 911 they are subject to discipline.

    -the email center is tied to a single database and there is a signal email only. Each inquiry generates a number and logs who answered it. No one besides the board of directors has their own work email address.

    -there is a company wide IM that everyone uses to communicate. It can archive and print messages like email.

    -every computer including the management ones only have access to the internal company internet. There is no outside internet access anywhere

    -we can have cell phones on our desk but we can’t play on them. We can answer phone calls but only for stuff like family issues (daycare emergencies for example). We can answer our cell phones without issue but we can’t make calls or be playing on them. If we are on our phone for something that is not an emergency/family issue we are subject to discipline, unless it is lunch in which case we can be on our phones as much as we want

    -everyone including management has a set start time and end time. There is no overtime or working after work or on weekends or holidays. There is a set lunch time that everyone must take at the same time. If it’s not lunch and we aren’t using the washroom we are supposed to be working. There are no smoke or coffee breaks.

    -no one including management has access to work stuff outside of their office and working from home isn’t allowed

    -the company calls any time off ‘days off’. Days off can only be taken as a full day/7 hours. No exceptions. They don’t have anything called PTO. If you have to be off you have to take the full day, even for managers

    -Besides the board of directors, everyone else works in cubicles and there are no private offices. Each floor has a meeting room even though no one ever has any meetings and if a manager needs to privately talk with someone they use that room

    -even though we don’t deal with the public at large or see anyone in person the dress code is suits, collared dress shirts, ties for men, dress shoes, no piercings besides ears and no unatural hair (only red, blonde, brown, blank or gray is allowed). On Fridays we can wear jeans and running shoes with t-shirts or sports jerseys

    These are just some examples. Some of them seem so different than what I have read about the working world. My colleagues are happy with how things are. They like that work and home are separate and that there are clear expectations for work that apply to everyone. They like that we aren’t allowed to come in when we are sick and that we aren’t questioned about it or asked for notes unless it really looks like there is abuse. Morale here is high. In my office they only had two people leave in the last 7 years and overall the turnover rate for the company is low.

    As I stated I’m new to the world of full time work and office work. I’m just wondering how much different my company is from other workplaces. I’m worried that if it’s too different it could affect my career path or expectations later on. My family has asked about my job and they think it is so weird. I’m just not sure about staying here longer term if it’s outside of most office norms, even though I get along with my colleagues and everyone else gets along.

    1. Leatherwings*

      To be honest this doesn’t seem that unusual for a customer service center – call centers like that often have separate rules and norms. I worked in a headquarters for a call center like this one awhile ago and it had similar rules that I haven’t encountered since.

      A lot of these things (like the IM system, dress code, hiring manager and internal hiring practices) aren’t all that unusual outside customer service centers either. As far as staying there long term and future career prospects, I think that it depends on what your role specifically is and what kind of professional development you’re getting there.

      1. my first post*

        Thanks for your answer. I appreciate it!

        These rules and norms are applied to the non call and email centre departments, such as the HR and payroll departments. So everyone besides the board of directors. Everyone who asks about my job, such as my family, thinks it’s super weird that there is no flexible time and that managers don’t have their own office and aren’t salaried.

        Thanks again for replying!

    3. Manders*

      Most of this sounds normal for a call center. The dress code is stricter than you’d expect to find at the average call center, and not having your own email address is pretty weird, but they actually seem lenient about things like letting employees keep their phones out.

      In my experience, call centers office norms can be very different from other offices, so try not to think of the way employees are treated in the call center as the way it will always be.

    4. Temperance*

      This sounds completely normal for a call center, actually, except for the high morale part. I’ve honestly only heard pretty negative stuff at call center employment. I don’t quite understand your stress about having different expectations for future jobs … if anything, a super structured environment like this could be really great for you starting out.

      Honestly, I’m not sure why your family is convinced that it’s “so weird” that your work is the way that it is. Your parents are not likely authorities on what the job market is like for you/what workplaces are like for you because they had a much easier experience getting jobs and probably have a different idea of what professional workplaces look like. (My parents are wholly ignorant of this, too, FWIW. Like, my mother is convinced that working from home, ever, is a scam and no “real” job would let you work at home.)

      1. my first post*

        Thanks for answering.

        It’s not a traditional call and email center, we only do support for other companies in our industry and not the public at large, the people we deal with managers or their assistants who stay professional and want to keep us happy. I think that has something to do with it.

        I don’t work at the call or email center, I work at headquarters in finance and payroll. My parents and others think it’s strange that I don’t have a work phone or email, that my manager doesn’t have an office and that the call and email center close for 30 minutes for lunch because everyone except for the board of directors takes lunch at the same time, no exceptions.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Okay, the fact that HQ employees are subject to the same restrictions as the call and email center employees is a little odd. Still, if employee satisfaction is high, they must be doing something right?

          1. this*

            But you also don’t have the “but it’s not fair that …… gets to …….. why can’t I.”

    5. my first post*

      Just to clarify, I work in the finance and payroll department at headquarters and not at the call or email center. These rules apply to my department as well (to everyone in the company except for the board of directors).

      I appreciate all the replies

    6. MegaMoose, Esq*

      My mom works at a call center and the strict dress code is the only thing that seemed unusual to me. She doesn’t have work email either, even when she was a manager (she was not salaried, did not have an office, and was not allowed to work over 35 hours). And her company doesn’t allow them to have cell phones on at all during working hours – family emergencies have to be routed through the manager’s work phone.

    7. What?*

      Wait, so people who do email customer service don’t have phones and no one has work email? This includes the HR department and all other departments. To me that is weird. I understand it might have to be that way for call centers but other departments or divisions? I work in Payroll and I would be miserable with such rigid rules. I can’t believe managers have a cubicle instead of an office either.

    8. AshK434*

      I would be absolutely miserable in an environment like that. I hate being treated like I can’t be trusted so kudos to your for lasting six months there.

      1. AshK434*

        I’m surprised that the replies to this have been so blase (though it does seem like most of the people skipped over the part where ALL of your company’s employees are treated this way – not just call center employees). I think this is beyond bizarre. Why aren’t the managers involved in the hiring process? As a candidate I’d be weary of accepting a job without meeting the mgr I’d be interacting with on a daily basis.

    9. Mazzy*

      I am really surprised that you say morale is high. I thought you were going to say it’s low. So many odd rules for management and corporate type jobs is crazy. I have to come up with original ideas and work in my role, and that sort of job that is more strategic just does not happen during set hours with so much structure. And I often need to google how to do things in various computer programs so the internet thing would drive me nuts.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Your workplace is highly structured. Some folks would say rigid.
      A lot of retail jobs are like this, also.
      It is different that office people have the same rules as front line people. I have often thought that office people should have the same rules as front line people in retail. Then maybe management would start to wise up.

      If we stay at any job too long without advancing somehow, yeah, it can effect our careers. In the end it’s your call though. I think what you could do right now to help reduce your fears about future jobs is continue to read AAM to find out what other people are seeing in their workplaces. While your experiences will remain the same, your awareness of all the different things going on in workplaces will go way UP.

  106. Raven*

    Literally 5 minutes ago I finished an interview for a summer internship with a company I had been really hoping to work for. The interview started off with me tripping over my words and sounding a bit unprepared — which was NOT the case at all; I was very prepared, but I do stutter when nervous sometimes — but it ended with me confidently talking about my experience and portfolio and showing that I was very interested in the work that I would be doing.

    It was hard to read how the interviewers felt because it was a phone interview, but could someone please reassure me that perhaps having a not-super first part of the interview is not the end of the world as long as I’ve made up for it? FWIW, I am *really* interested in this position; it’s nearly *exactly* what I want to do for a full-time career, and my portfolio and work history very closely align with the job duties.

    1. Leatherwings*

      It’s really really common for people to be nervous and a bit less than smooth in the beginning of an interview, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Interviewers who are human beings are actually sympathetic to the interview jitters and over look it.
      Interviewers who are jerks, not so much.

    3. Raven*

      Leatherwings and Not So NewReader, thank you so much for your replies! They’ve really helped me feel better about the situation. Unfortunately, the interviewer said she wouldn’t be making her decision until March (the application deadline, fair enough), so I have to wait until then…

  107. Graphic Designer (37 years)*

    Calling all AAM Graphic Designers or Creatives!

    A spin off from the post today about online job applications comment:
    What has worked for you with the online job applications that resulted in a least a phone or in-person interview?

    And how do you deal with the endless wishlist in the job descriptions? It feels like from the ads I’ve been looking at that most want someone who can do everything web design, social media, design apps, photography, shoot and edit videos, be a design superstar in addition to being up to date on print production and design trends (head hitting keyboard here…)

    1. Veteran of many layoffs*

      You forgot “be fluent in 2 or more coding languages.” And “be willing to do all of the above for $25k/year, salaried.” :P

      No real advice, just commiseration. Every job I’ve gotten has been through knowing someone who’s familiar with my work (I’m in a tightly knit field where everyone knows everyone). Whenever I look at job ads I panic because my background is mostly print.

      1. Graphic Designer (37 years)*

        Same here – mostly print plus “whatever” on web design, etc I’ve picked on the fly on the job. Guess I’m going to have to dust off my networking skills and get moving…

        One thing I do stress in the ye olde cover letter is I’m fluent in speaking “printer” because I’m finding that the designers coming out of college now aren’t getting much (if at all) training on how to do print production etc…and yes, there are people out there that think you can print RGB including the hot mess marketing director at my place of employment.

        And don’t get me started on salaries…

        1. Chaordic One*

          What I heard from the creative department before I left, was that they were having trouble finding designers who know anything about digital pre-press. Does that sound right?

          Also, they were losing a lot of people to jobs that are not really all that creative, but that paid better. There was a typesetter who quit for a better-paying job doing what was basically a lot of ordinary word-processing. (I guess he just wasn’t that committed to a creative career.)

    2. NaoNao*

      Well….
      I’ve never had a call back from a strictly online application.
      I have had success by contacting the hiring manager or the poster of the job ad directly on LinkedIn and asking them to look at my profile. I got my last two jobs that way!
      The traditional advice for job postings is to have about 70% of the stuff they want. Most of it is “want” or “wish” if it’s not directly stated “Requirements”. I might also make a list on your LinkedIn of “expert” and “proficient” skills (a colleague did this and I loved it and stole it), and include as many of the “hot” skills as you can.
      If you’re very strong in one area, focus on that. If you have unusual or high demand skills, focus on that. But I would say don’t try to be everything to everyone.

  108. Feeling Shafted*

    Wondering what others think about a frustrating work situation I’m having. My company has really good benefits, and in addition to an annual bonus employees are eligible for a special bonus if they go an entire year without any revenue-impacting mistakes. For a long time this only included mistakes made on the employee’s end, but a couple of years ago a second tier of eligible mistakes was added for things that were not employee-introduced mistakes (we’ll call this Type A), but mistakes on the client end that the employee could potentially have caught and fixed before the transaction was completed (Type B). The first year this was in effect, no employees received the bonus because it is nearly impossible not to make Type B mistakes at least every once in a while. That year, I made no Type A mistakes and just one Type B mistake for the year and was pretty unhappy about not receiving the bonus. I spoke with my manager about it and proposed an amendment to the rule that would award the bonus to employees who made no Type A mistakes and two or fewer Type B mistakes, which seemed more reasonable. She agreed with me, but was overruled by her own manager.

    Fast forward to this year, where I find myself in exactly the same position as last time (made no Type As and only one Type B for the year). My manager confided in me that another editor is in the same boat. Neither of us will receive the bonus, but she let me know that her manager relented and agreed that for next year people with no Type As and only one Type B will be eligible next year. I’m very disappointed not to get the bonus this year but am glad that at least I might have a chance next year.

    The problem I’m having now is that we have just been alerted (via a company-wide congratulatory email) that one of our coworkers had no mistakes of either type for the year and will be getting the bonus. I am frustrated by this because I know that this employee did in fact make a Type A mistake toward the end of last year (because I was personally responsible for redoing the item that this employee made a mistake on once it was brought to our attention by our client) but I think his manager purposely did not classify it as a mistake in our tracking system so that the employee in question would still be eligible for the bonus (we report to different managers). I think this because I was the one who alerted his direct manager of the mistake while I was dealing with the follow-up (not in a tattling way, but because he was the only manager available at that moment and I needed his input on resolving the issue) and he expressed disappointment when he learned who the responsible editor was.

    I am hesitant to bring this up to my manager for a couple of reasons. First of all, I do not want my coworker’s bonus to be rescinded because he is a good worker and very rarely makes mistakes, and I think it would be petty to take it away from him even though technically he shouldn’t be receiving it (I don’t necessarily think this would happen if I brought it up but there’s always a chance). I also feel somewhat petty saying “Why is he getting this when the one mistake I made was far less severe than his” especially since I’ve already discussed my frustrations with the policy with my manager multiple times, and I don’t want to give the impression that I’m trying to bully my way into a bonus I’m not technically eligble for. On the other hand, I think it’s worth noting that I and the other employee who only had one Type B mistake last year are both female, and the employee getting the bonus is male. I have a very good relationship with my manager that I don’t want to damage but I also feel shafted by this entire situation.

    What would you guys do?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Polish up that resume and start looking. This bonus structure has been deliberately set up this way to ensure that employees don’t receive bonuses. I dealt with the same thing in retail. Every year the bonus structure would change slightly due to complaints about the prior year’s structure but it was still unachievable in real world conditions and was nothing more than dangling a carrot that you had no chance of ever getting. I have ZERO respect for companies that operate this way and I consider it to be in bad faith on the part of the management.

      Oh…did I mention….when I was in retail we got monthly reports that listed each store’s stats so we knew if the other managers hit the established benchmarks or not. Those that were will liked, but didn’t hit the benchmarks, often got bonuses. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, could be a legit oversight, but it happened to frequently in my case to have been an oversight.

      I don’t believe that mentioning this to your manager is going to have any positive effect. Best to start looking and move on to a company that doesn’t play games like this.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        ^^ Maybe one more caveat…..if the bonus isn’t a substantial portion of your compensation…say 1 – 2% or something like that and not getting it doesn’t have a HUGE financial impact on your life and you’re otherwise happy with the other aspects of the job, then I’d consider this a minor annoyance that I’d roll my eyes over. However, if there are other significant issues that you’re not happy with and don’t seem to be changing, then I’d consider moving on. My personal view has always been to consider bonuses as a non-factor and something I never expected to get. If I did, then it was icing on the cake, but if I didn’t it didn’t matter because I’d mentally written if off as not happening anyway. Regardless, I’d still feel shafted if I were you. Your feelings are totally valid.

      2. Feeling Shafted*

        This is a special bonus that is in addition to a regular annual bonus so it’s not something to quit over. Our benefits are very good in general and I consider myself lucky that I work for a company that offers merit-based incentives like this. This situation rankles on principle, because I feel that a manager is showing favoritism and other employees in similar situations are not receiving recognition for arguably better track records.

    2. Intern Wrangler*

      If it weren’t for the questions it raises for you about possible gender discrimination, I would not say anything about it. This bonus structure is incredibly rigid and shafts people. It doesn’t surprise me you feel shafted. It’s a bad policy. But it probably won’t make you feel better if you report it because the most that would likely happen is that he would lose his bonus, not that they would relent and give you one. And it might cost you political capital with your manager because you have brought it up before.
      But then I read the concern that there might be gender bias involved. So I guess I would ask you if you feel like that’s at play in other ways in your company. If so, then you could document where you’ve seen it and address it through that lens. Or you could use it as information about whether or not you want to stay with this company?
      If not, do you feel like the other manager might be treating this employee differently than other employees? You possibly could address that as a concern.
      Finally, it seems as if the other manager is not treating employees the same as other managers treat the employee or categorize mistakes. That’s probably completely out of your hands and there probably isn’t anything you can do about that in this situation, but if you see it persist, you may be able to bring it to the manager’s supervisor.

    3. Mazzy*

      Bonus for no mistakes. Depends on the type of role but even in my job in a regulatory and financial environment (though many of the transactions aren’t regulated or public), the more work someone does and the more strategic they are or the more they take risks with benefit of a higher payoff, the more mistakes they make. So if someone made no errors, we’d all be thinking that they musn’t have tried very hard or done anything besides the bad minimum.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is a crappy incentive program.

      Probably the other manager agrees and has started fudging the numbers because she is ticked off at the lousy program. And your manager is still doing it correctly.
      This is the problem with these bad programs and the net result is that the employees get restless.

      If you feel you cannot open the subject with your boss, then tell yourself that your cohort could end up having to pay back that money once things are found out. At least you won’t have to pay back that money. In an odd way, your boss is a good boss to you by not getting you mixed up in this type of stuff.

  109. Nichole*

    What advice do people have for setting goals? I need to set (SMART) goals for myself, and I always struggle with it.

    I’m an engineer (four years into my career), and while it’s easy enough to set vague goals that I can vaguely work towards (like improving my technical skills, getting better at taking criticism, maintaining a positive attitude) I struggle translating them into specifics that are attainable.

    Like, for improving my technical skills, there are some specific things I can think of doing: attending a technical conference, doing more design work, performing my own analysis on something, and generally keeping my ears open and trying to follow conversations in meetings even when they don’t apply to my own current area of expertise. The first one isn’t an option, the second and third depend on the program I get assigned to (if I stay on my current one it’ll be a lot more like ‘answer customer questions about the product’), and the fourth is hardly measurable.

    I’ve been looking for articles, etc, but all I can really find is advice on the importance of setting goals that are specific, measurable…which I get. It’s the how which I’m struggling with.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      First, the type of goals they want you to set should be clearly defined as either professional development goals or actual work goals, as determined by your manager. At my company, you set a couple goals in both areas.

      For example, a prof dev goal would be “develop knowledge of wastewater treatment equipment and processes”. Then you set the tasks you will do to achieve that goal and how you know it was achieved. “Attend a technical conference” would be one of the steps you take to achieve that goal, and it could be measured as “complete” if you get a certificate or PDHs in that area.

      A work goal would be if you’re in a customer support-type engineer role to have a metric of calls taken, quality scores for those calls (successful resolution of the customer problem, client satisfaction survey results are a 3 or better). If you know your metrics for last year, you could compare and set a goal for 10% improvement. If that’s your current role, your goals should be set based on that. If you change positions, you should update your goals.

  110. Chloe*

    Hi.

    I lost my job June 2016, I snagged a contract-to-hire job the end of July 2016, I am still here, contracting. I was given much praise for my knowledge, quick turnaround, and great personality. The problem is, they halted the offer because I had a few typos, they decided to keep me on because they say I’m a near perfect candidate and haven’t been able to find someone similar. I have been searching for other jobs, but I’ve had no luck so far. This is very new for me as I’ve applied to jobs in the past and usually had interviews scheduled within a couple weeks. I”m a great interviewer and I have stable work history, outside of my job loss last year.

    I’ve been thinking about reaching out to the woman that hired me to ask if it’s possible I could be put back in the running for a permanent position. The current pay is awful compared to what I was making and I have medical debt because of an accident I had after my insurance lapsed. I am also on the verge of eviction.

    Should I reach out to her? Or should I continue to job search and hope for the best?

    Thank you.

    1. fposte*

      To clarify–the woman who hired you is the same person as the “they” who halted the offer?

      I certainly think you can go back to whoever’s in charge of the decision to ask if it’s possible to reopen the possibility of a transition to permanent. My one concern is the money aspect–will the change to permanent level of pay be enough of a gain for you, or will you continue job searching? If you’d still continue job-searching, I might still ask, but I’d be aware that you might be burning this bridge, and if they find out you’re still searching when you’re made permanent, you might burn it while you’re still on it.

      1. Chloe*

        Yes, the person who hired me is the “they”.

        The salary would be enough, I honestly would like to stay and grow here. So, if I become permanent, I will not continue to job search.

    2. animaniactoo*

      If you reach out to talk to her, I would bring up the possibility that they’re looking for a golden unicorn if they can’t find anyone similar enough to you and it is genuinely a few typos. Everybody makes a few typos. The question is, what kind of Q/A do they have in place to make sure the typos get caught? Proofreading as a position has been sacrificed in many places as a cost-saving move (and because spellcheck…. don’t get me started), but the reason proofreading existed as a separate role in the first place is because an objective set of eyes is less likely to see what you meant in your head vs what is actually down on the paper.

      1. Chloe*

        Well, the typos are always caught but it is sent to the client or finalized. The amount of work and detailed emails I send on a daily basis is far more than I’ve ever experienced.

        A couple coworkers of mine mentioned that if they’re looking for someone better than me, they are indeed searching for a unicorn.

      2. fposte*

        Though as an editor I’ll say that everybody makes a few typos, but not everybody makes them at the same amount in the same time and at the same level of egregiousness. If we’re talking three unitalicized commas, it’s petty; if we’re talking misspelling the CEO’s name three times, it’s significant.

        Additionally, I expect to hear not how they seek other people to catch their typos but what methodologies they’ve put in place for catching their own.

        1. Chloe*

          Well, the woman I work for is very… particular. So my minor typos may seem careless to her. I’ve never had any significant misspellings like that.

    3. Chloe*

      Thanks guys.

      She’s working from home today, and Monday is a holiday.

      I think I’m going to send her an email.

    1. Dawn*

      Bring it. There might be back to back meetings, orientations, who knows! Bringing it means that you can scout out the lay of the land- it might be an office where everyone eats at their desk and it’s weird to go out and get lunch. Bringing it just in case is much safer.

    2. Accounting/HR Associate*

      I’d buy it, it would be one less thing to worry about on your first day and you could get an idea of how things were set up as far as the fridge/break room situation, since that can vary widely from job to job.

      1. Oops!*

        Forgot to change my name after the salary thread! I feel differently from Dawn–I’ve brought lunch on my first day before only to find out that fridge space is inadequate/non-existent, or that there isn’t really anywhere to eat lunch other than at my desk.

    3. Leatherwings*

      I always plan to buy and keep some snacks in my bag so that I survive if there’s not a natural opening to run out. But every place I’ve ever worked has made sure to designate “feel free to take a lunch break now” time or taken me out to lunch.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Bring it. There’s no way of knowing when lunch will be or how long you’ll get. Bring something easy to eat, not smelly, and edible while cold in case you can’t access a microwave.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Oh, and bring your lunch in a lunchbox with an ice pack, so you don’t have to fight for fridge space on the first day.

    5. Emi.*

      I brought a sandwich and money and told myself that if people said “Hey, we’re going to the cafeteria, wanna come?” I could go with them and just bring the sandwich back home.

    6. Judy*

      Bring it, but in a way that it is somewhat hidden. Put some food in your bag or purse. If you bring a visible lunchbox or ask where the fridge is to put your lunch, you might miss out on going out to eat with someone.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      Bring it, but something you can easily ignore if you get offered to be taken to lunch. I often have made that offer to new people and had it made to me.

    8. Andreas*

      I wouldn’t bring lunch, in case the new team/manager/coworkers asked me to join them for lunch at some restaurant

    9. NicoleK*

      Bring a lunch unless you know for sure that there’s dining options in the area. You don’t want to be the new coworker who’s 20 minutes late coming back from lunch on your first day.

  112. Tim*

    Any advice on negotiating a start date when you’ve already told the employer you only need to give 2 weeks notice? This will all be moot if I don’t get an offer, but something JUST came up at my current job that gives me a lot of good reasons to stay till at least early March (both career and financial reasons). Of course, this didn’t come up till today, post-second-interview for the other job.

    Is it bad that I’m kind of hoping I don’t get the offer? I don’t want to make tough decisions!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Aw, that’s a tough situation to be in! You can certainly ask to start in early March. It won’t hurt to ask but be prepared to hear that they need someone to start right away.

  113. Brogrammer*

    I think this is an appropriate place to brag a little since it’s workplace-related. I work for a small company and we finally hired our first female software developer, a classmate of mine from college who I referred for the position. She’s been here about a month now and is doing great.

  114. psykins*

    Mr. psykins just interviewed for a job with my employer and should know in a week. It’s in a completely different department and we would have essentially no working relationship. We’re very aware of some of the pitfalls of working for the same employer, but I’m still excited. It would be a HUGE pay increase, we’d have the same holidays, and he’d get the same amount of vacation time (right now he’s at half of what I have). Fingers effin’ crossed!

  115. caledonia*

    I’m just popping in to say – email rules, rule.
    (I am one of those people who get a bit stressed when there are many multiple emails in my inbox unread. This way, all nice in a folder.)

  116. AnotherAnony*

    At old toxic workplace, when I gave my notice my boss seemed surprised. I thought he would be happy because I wasn’t his first choice for the position and he made it clear that he didn’t like me. He never said acknowledged me and treated everyone better than me.
    Yet when I gave my notice, he started treating me like a human being! He acknowledged me and started to pick on my co-worker instead of me! (I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. )
    Now, I’m not naive. I know if I didn’t leave he would continue to have treated me poorly. Why are toxic places like this? Why do some people excel in such environments and others can’t wait to get out?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why are toxic places like this?

      Do we really want to understand these things? Will our minds get warped in the process of trying to understand? There are many reasons for the Jekyll/Hyde thing. One time I saw it the boss was happy because it was proved her point that the place was miserable. She honestly believed she won first prize, “I am a special one because I am still here and everyone else just quits!”

      Why do some people excel and others don’t? Just my opinion but the ones who excel do so because the toxic environment is what they are used to for whatever reason. If they worked somewhere nice they would not know what to do.

  117. Andreas*

    Hello everyone, just hoping I could get some opinions on this issue.

    Do you think it’s fair to request the same salary (ie., same value when converted to USD) when you move to a different location? I’m about to move (temporarily) from one of the US top 10 expensive cities to Munich, and my company proposed a much lower salary arguing that the living expenses is lower in Munich, which is true.
    But my argument is that, at the end of the day, I’d like to “take home” (ie., take the $ back to the US) the same amount as I would if I were to still working in my current city. Additionally, I’d like to factor in the euro-usd exhcange rate, which seems to only get worse.

    1. Saturday*

      If your living expenses are lower then your ‘take home’ would be the same assuming adjustments are made appropriately. What’s the problem?

        1. Andreas*

          I haven’t even included some “extra” expenses such as tickets to go back to the US to see my families, etc.

    2. Cold brew*

      How do you plan on ‘factoring in’ the exchange rate? Given everything that’s going on globally it’s almost impossible to forecast this accurately and if you’ve figured out a way to beat the market you don’t need whatever job you’re currently doing lol.

      1. Andreas*

        By “factor-in” I mean, I’d like to be assured that even the rate plunged lower, my salary won’t be too bad once converted to USD. Concretely, right now I’m getting X (in USD), and they are offering me a salary of 0.65X in euros…

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think you can reasonably ask them to pay more just in case the euro drops–unless you’re a big cheese and/or you’re willing to accept less pay if the euro rises.

    3. fposte*

      This is with the same employer, right, not changing employers? And they’ve got an existing site in Munich with pay bands or standards already?

      When you deduct Munich living costs and convert the discretionary remainder to dollars, how does that match your current discretionary dollars? What about the gain from not paying state tax back home? (If you’re in CA, that’s a hell of a gain.)

      I think your best chance is to crunch those numbers and bring them along with a target request for pay–not necessarily the same salary, because that seems a little odometer-fixated and, assuming an existing Munich location, too cavalier about the impact of such a change, but a salary that gives you parity so that you don’t lose on retirement, etc., seems like a reasonable thing to ask for if you can back it up.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This. If you work for a big enough company they ought to have a dept that handles this sort of stuff where they true up the taxes and retirement benefits. Are they offering any expat goodies to sweeten the pot? Things like airfare back home once or twice a year is sometimes a part of a package, or housing assistance, tax assistance, etc. Any moving expenses or housing allowances thrown on top? Can you negotiate these?

        To be fair, the big employer I worked for that transferred people all over the place were notorious for not adjusting salaries – you got what the local folks got on their pay band, unless you were a BIG cheese. But there were some expat perks thrown in. Still, it comes down to if it works for you or not whatever your situation may be.

  118. RavensandOwls*

    Here’s a question – I worked hard to get into the university system where I live, which typically doesn’t hire from outside. I’m moving to another state (both a yay and a boo), though, and would like to continue in Higher Ed… is this going to be starting from the ground up again? Will my nearly 2 years at Awesome!University count for anything?

    1. fposte*

      Probably, yes. A blanket never-hiring-from-outside policy is unusual IME. Have you looked at some likely institutions in NewState and checked the CVs of people with the jobs you’d like to have?

      1. RavensandOwls*

        Definitely looked at likely institutions. Where we’re moving (Bay Area, CA) is chock full of them.

        CVs… less so. I should definitely do that. I have been feeling out some connections that folks at Awesome!University have either referred me to or introduced and I’ve gotten a stamp of approval on my resume and cover letter from a connection at SuperPrestigious!University in the area (also a few “hey, come on by, would love to meet you when you move” from two more people there), but I’ll def. do more research.

        Thank you for the tip!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, it’ll definitely count! Everyone knows how hard it is to get into large university systems, so the fact that you did will speak to your abilities.

      1. RavensandOwls*

        So then I’ll follow up with a second question! When I got Awesome!Job here, it was nearly two months between when I submitted my application materials and got a callback at all. Is this typical in anyone else’s experience? I got curious and made a spreadsheet of the places I’d applied to in new state (which, why hide, it’s CA) and I’ve put in about 20 apps to community colleges and universities in the area, and heard *nothing*. I did get a rejection to a job that was kind of a stretch and tangential (I figured, ‘Why not?’) but it seems weird to be staring at a lot of nothing a few weeks to a month later.

        1. fposte*

          That kind of long, slow timeframe is absolutely the norm in academia. Our university does notify of rejections, but sadly academia is like the private sector in not always doing this simple thing.

        2. Lemon Zinger*

          Yep, that’s exactly how it was when I was applying for my current job at a large university. Especially around the holidays, hiring is really slow in higher ed.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d say so. I mean, you have university experience and that’s super important to getting your foot in the door. Plus some places actually prefer to hire people from the outside, because it fights the tendency of universities to stagnate.

      If you’re moving to a place with a Civil Service system though, that might be a thing to think about.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      Higher ed is a small, incestuous little world. Off the cuff, I could come up with someone I know in higher ed in most major metro areas. Use your network. I bet you’ll find someone who can connect you and YES your experience helps.

  119. The Mighty Thor*

    Does anyone have experience getting hired at a non-profit they enjoy volunteering for?

    There’s a local food bank (not food pantry) that I’ve volunteered for over the past few years, doing both general labor and special projects. I’ve always gotten great feedback from them.

    My volunteering for them has always been on top of my current full time job.

    They’ve had a few openings in the past that I applied for, but didn’t work out. My response has been to take it in stride, continue volunteering for them, and keep an eye on their job postings.

    Am I doing everything I can? Can anyone with any experience with this recommend additional things I should be doing?

    1. Murphy*

      Yes, I worked at an animal shelter for 2.5 years (started off part time and moved up to full time) and I had been a volunteer for several months prior to that. I was an extremely active volunteer because I didn’t have a job. I applied for a position there that wasn’t really what I had been doing (working with the animals) and so I didn’t even get an interview. (From what I know now, I would have been terrible at that job, so that’s cool!) When an animal care position opened up, the assistant supervisor actually suggested to me that I should apply and so I did. I think I just got lucky! I didn’t really have any experience in the field other than being a volunteer.

      Do you have other experience in the area? Have you spoken to people there about your application? Have you gotten any feedback. If you’ve applied a few times with nothing, I might try and talk to them and ask what they’re looking for, depending on your relationship with whoever is hiring.

  120. Folklorist*

    Welp, I just got fired from a freelance job. I’m not sad because they severely misrepresented the scope of the work to me when it was assigned (as a freelance editing job, they said that it was 40 pages over X days, when it turned out that it was 110 pages and creating graphics from scratch, and oh by the way, can you start a week early?). I was clear in interviews that I have a full-time job that takes precedence and can only work evenings and weekend, but they were genuinely surprised that I wasn’t prepared to jump 24/7 for them–and when I reminded them that I had a full-time job, they freaked out and reassigned the project to someone else. I’m still on the graphics, but they’re reassigning the editing. Again, I’m not sad–the graphics are the fun part to me and the editing was going to be horrible, but doable.

    (I should have known that this company was going to be difficult to work for when, as a condition of getting a contract with them, they wanted the names, addresses, dates, references, pay rates, and number of hours and days worked at every single job–including small freelance contracts–for the past three years. And then copies of those contracts and all of my W2’s.)

    But I’m worried about how this will affect my reputation or the reputation of the people who recommended me for this job. I just bought a condo with the knowledge that some freelance work was going to be necessary for me to maintain it! I have a pretty good reputation overall and get a decent amount of work without having to ask for it, just by word of mouth.

    Freelance editors, should I be worried that this will harm my reputation? I was seriously considering firing this company as a client after this project, so it’s a pretty mutual parting of the ways. I’ve explained my side to them about the timing and what I was expecting from the beginning vs. what was finally asked, apologized if there was a miscommunication, and promised to work with them in whatever way possible to make sure that this project and their publication is a success–in other words, I’m still trying to be very professional when I’m somewhat upset. I dunno. Anyone have advice/commiseration on freelance work?

    1. Folklorist*

      PS: I know that I communicated badly and should have talked to them sooner about the fact that the expectations were snowballing and that I might not be able to keep up. I had just told myself that I could pull an epic grad-school-type all-nighter weekend and it would be fine! I’m actually usually pretty good at that, and at pulling it out in the long-haul. I know that these people have no way of knowing that, however, and understand why they want to reassign it in-house. Besides, I’m getting too old for all-nighter weekends and that sounded really unpleasant, so I’m relieved to be off the majority of the project. It just sucks to be fired and have someone know that you can’t do it!

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’d really be more worried that this organization is going to get a bad reputation, and not you. It sounds like they really made you jump through a lot of hoops to get the job and that it was excessive and unreasonable. Did they make you sign a confidentiality agreement?

        As for the people who recommended you, they didn’t really hand you a great opportunity, did they?

        Live and learn. Forgive yourself and move on.

    2. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

      The beauty of being a freelancer is that you can fire clients who suck.

      These clients suck. :) Good riddance. You now have room in your schedule for folks who have reasonable expectations and who will work within *your* schedule and availability.

      Good luck!

  121. anonmoose*

    Anon here but I have mentioned this before- I self-harmed as a teen and am still not that comfortable with full short sleeves in the office.

    Today, though, a car splashed me on the way to work, so I slipped my wet blazer over my chair and worked in my short sleeves. I didn’t want to stay soaked all day!

    It’s an open office plan, but no one said anything until my boss came to talk to me. She flinched, lost the thread of what she was going to ask, and asked how I got to looking like that

    I took readers’ advice and said, “it was a long time ago and I don’t talk about it. Now what about this teapot category?” But she’s really nosy. Asked again, I said the same thing. She said, “but did you…why…?” And sort of trailed off.

    I really hope she doesn’t ask more things. Or tell me I always have to cover up, weather, dampness, and HVAC be dammed. I’m a young professional with a graduate degree, and it would rankle me not to be able to make this small, empowering decision on clothes for myself.

    1. ZVA*

      Ugh, I’m sorry for what your boss said; that was really insensitive of her. (To ask again after you told her you don’t talk about it?!) But congrats to you for handling it so professionally and well.

    2. fposte*

      I think you did a good job, and it sounds like what you were mainly hearing was startlement. Hopefully she’ll have time to process and let it all go over the weekend.

    3. me again*

      Sorry you are dealing with this. Can you use makeup to cover up the scars? You shouldn’t have to, but sometimes it’s worth it to get people to shut up.

      1. anonmoose*

        I’m not sure- I have really sensitive skin. Anything with fragrances, artificial dyes, or anything too thick, makes me break out. And it doesn’t solve the texture issue. Significant scarring often heals as raised marks.

        1. MaggiePi*

          Along this line, not that you need to, but if you *want* to, it might be worth looking at something like mederma. It’s made for scars and I had a lot of luck with it for a facial scar. It is supposed to help with both coloration and texture. Also, I think the process of rubbing the area (with some pressure if you can) can help soften scar tissue.

          1. fposte*

            I will note that Mederma hasn’t performed well in double-blind tests, and I amused myself by regularly using it on half of an incision wound following surgery–no discernible difference from the other half.

            1. MaggiePi*

              Bummer. I hope they develop something else effective at this, because it would help a lot of people in various scenarios.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            Rubbing does seem to help–I did that with my gallbladder incision (the one where they pulled it out), and it’s very flat now. I’m prone to keloids and I didn’t want another one. I don’t know how that would work on old scars, though.

            1. blackcat*

              This works best when the scar is relatively fresh, and it often doesn’t work at all old scars.

              I used the rubbing strategy to deal with the scar tissue from a 3rd degree burn* on my hand–it worked not just on the skin but on the tissue below it. It took about a year, but eventually I got rid of all of the stiffness around the burn. My mom talked to one of her doctor’s about my burn–b/c mine were incompetent–and her doc was very clear that a bad hand scar needs to be treated in the first 18 months. Otherwise, you’re stuck with the scar tissue for good and more likely to have issues like carpal tunnel.

              That said… anonmoose shouldn’t feel an obligation to hide or get rid of her scars for the sake of other people. If the scars cause her discomfort (physical or otherwise), then finding a way to treat them could be useful. But if it’s just that her boss is an ass… her boss is an ass.

              *This was the worst injury I ever had. 100x more painful than dislocating my shoulder. It was also far and away the grossest–when I changed my bandages, I could see my blistered tendons ligaments. I now fully appreciate why they put people with severe burns in comas while they heal. I am also still pissed at the doctors who offered me zero pain relief. In the words of one, “Oh, yes, it’ll be excruciating for at least two weeks, maybe as long as six, but you’ll learn how to cope.” I had to change my own damn bandages because my insurance wouldn’t pay for appointments to do that (and the doctor’s office wanted more than $200 per nurse visit to do it). I lived alone at the time. I didn’t sleep for weeks because of the pain. It was the worst, and I am normally a total champ with injuries and medical stuff.

                1. blackcat*

                  A primary care doctor who is an ass. They refused pain treatment, because they’d only treat pain issues that would require 7 days or less of drugs. And they wouldn’t refer me to a burn specialist because my burn was healing fine. Without the referral, I had no insurance coverage for the specialist, and I couldn’t afford the out of pocket costs at the time. Had I ponied up for the ER visit from the get go, I probably would have gotten okay treatment. But I wanted to save money and though I could wait 24 hours to see a primary care doc.

                  The good healing was no thanks to them. I have a lot of first aid training, so I knew how to take care of it (and youtube is great). 90% of why I went to the doctor was to get something for the pain. All I got was some free bandages and a chipper, “Yes, that’s a third degree burn. Supposedly it’s one of the most painful injuries possible!”

                  Doctors, just like anyone else, can be assholes. There are a lot of assholes in the world…

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. Your boss was startled, but she handled it terribly and unprofessionally.

      1. Username has gone missing*

        This.

        Use the broken record technique if need be where you give the same answer over and over. “I’d rather not discuss it. Now about this teapot report.” And repeat as many times as needed.

    5. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I self-harmed a lot when I was a teen too, but thankfully my scars don’t seem to be too noticeable anymore. Is it obvious that those scars are from self-harm and not, say, a bad encounter with an overly scratchy cat?

    6. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      Ouch! There’s no discomfort like that expressed by another uncomfortable person. It could be that your boss was stumbling around verbally because she cares about you as a human being, and was dismayed to learn that once upon a time you had been so deeply unhappy. Sometimes the urge to be empathetic overpowers the need to maintain professional boundaries. She may have been too caught up in her inner conflict to comprehend your request or stifle her question. Or maybe seeing your scars brought up memories of similar experience in self-harming or watching it happen with someone she loved.

      I say this as someone who has been on both sides of the clumsy reaction. Recently, when a new person in my life was describing a difficult experience, I started to grimace. I had to say, “I’m not judging you for having had this difficult experience. I’m just sad that you had to experience the accompanying heartache.”

      tl;dr: It sounds as if you did everything fine. You calmly stated that whatever happened was in the past and you didn’t want to discuss it further. If it comes up again you can always repeat that. If you are comfortable acknowledging the other person’s discomfort and giving some reassurance–without discussing it further–you might find it helpful, but this is strictly your call. For more details see below. Otherwise stop reading now. :-)

      Background: I once found the reassure-without-allowing-any-further-discussion technique helpful in turning aside a well-intentioned but highly intrusive comment. Years ago, my spouse and I were still renters and not yet parents–clearly a two-part failure in the opinion of some traditional relatives. One day, one of these people asked me something to the effect of “What’s up?! Get busy! You need to buy a house and have kids!” I replied, “I appreciate your concern but it’s not going to happen quite like that.” The question was so uncomfortable that I wanted to curl up in a corner. (We wanted kids. We were just not there economically, and I found this too private to discuss.) However, I also knew that the only way to stop the pain was to shut down the discussion. My answer worked completely. After a brief silence, we went on to some other subject. I was glad that we were talking by telephone. I was not yet sufficiently poised to deliver this non-combative shutdown in person. Gaining this poise is one of the benefits of getting older and gaining life experience.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I had a moderately dark scar on each knee from two different accidents. One really caught people’s eye because it looked like a marijuana leaf, so I got comments.

      Later, I started taking vitamin E and drinking water more routinely. I could see the scars fading. I could not believe what I was seeing. I thought I was going to wear those scars for life. It was probably a year or a year and a half, the scars were gone. And these were deep puncture wounds of at least 3/4 of an inch and slightly larger than a quarter. (I have fat knees.) Out of curiosity I stretched the skin by pressing in opposite directions with two fingers. I still could not see any trace of the scars. They were gone.

      Maybe you can find something non-invasive that you would be interested in trying to see if you can get any changes going on there.

  122. tattletale*

    I keep stressing because I’m not sure I did the right thing.

    Coworker on my team is getting married. Coworkers who are very friendly, but with whom we don’t work super closely, wanted to plan a shower, approached me to be part of it since I’m on guest of honor’s team, and planned to expense a catered lunch for a small group of people across various teams. Coworker works with many people across our department and is very friendly with pretty much everyone, so some people were being excluded here. More importantly, a coworker who approves expenses approached me to complain that she always feels pressured to approve “meetings” that are actually celebrations and that it’s wearing her down, making her feel disrespected (it’s her job to enforce the rules, and people will ask her to her face how to circumvent the rules; I was there when they did exactly that for this celebration). So I went with her to speak privately to my boss’s boss and explained our situations re expenses and exclusion. Boss’s boss decided that we had to do a team shower (i.e. my team only), a division-wide celebration with cake or something instead of a catered lunch, or do something on our own time that we couldn’t expense to the department. She let the planners know that further planning on their part wasn’t necessary (I’ve since reached out to invite them to be part of planning the smaller celebration that my team will be ultimately responsible for – 2/3 responded positively, and I think I’m getting chilly silence from 1, but that could be my imagination).

    I keep thinking I should’ve handled this better somehow but I’m not quite sure how. Initial planning group was pretty set on a catered lunch and a small invite list. I voiced a few concerns but was assured it wasn’t a big deal and I generally went along with it in the moment. But after talking to approver-coworker, it really is a bigger deal than I initially thought, in no small part because she’s really important to the smooth operation of the department and she’s incredibly fed up and cynical about intentions at this point (she thinks the wedding is an excuse for a free lunch; I think the intentions were good but the execution was oblivious). It’s terrible for her morale. I also think it would’ve reflected on me and my boss that a lot of people didn’t make the invite list, even if we weren’t the primary planners, since we’d be “hosting” the shower. But I feel like I didn’t have to narc, exactly. I don’t know. We had to change direction somehow and I wish I’d handled it differently. Idk, just getting it off my chest.

    1. Murphy*

      It’s a pretty shitty thing to do to a coworker to ask her to circumvent the rules like that, so I think you did the right thing not letting that happen.

    2. fposte*

      Hey, admittedly I’m technically a government employee, but a plan to expense a personal celebration? I’d have been to my boss on that ASAP. It sounds like your business is really unclear, to put it politely, on its personal use policies for party-type stuff, and it’s really not fair on the person who approves expenses to take the brunt of the ambiguity.

      So I think what you did was fine and that the feelings of the prospective organizers are what matters least here.

      1. tattletale*

        Thanks. It’s actually not ambiguous at all – there are guidelines for celebrations and guidelines for meetings, but nominally-work-related-but-actually-social gatherings get the “meeting” title all the time. Expenses are justified as “team-building,” and approver-coworker only has so much tolerance for being pressured by coworkers who should know better and a manager who doesn’t always have her back, so things slide that she’d rather not let slide. But usually those are team-specific “meetings,” and in this case, there’s no possible justifiable business reason for this gathering – there were planned invitees from a bunch of different teams. It’s clearly a social/celebratory thing and it was messy to ask her point-blank to break rules.

        In writing this out it’s clear to me how dysfunctional this is and I feel a little better about having handled it less-than-ideally in the heat of the moment, only because it so obviously needed to be addressed. Approver-coworker feels better about it, and that’s what I care about the most, so it’s history.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      For me, the sticking point is that these employees were trying to dress it up as a “meeting” even though they were clearly just inviting their friends. If you’re worrying a lot over whether the office clique is mad at you, the office environment is already toxic. These women are upset over having to invite the whole class to their party, and you’re angsty about being frozen out? Your coworker is right to be frustrated that she’s constantly being asked to facilitate these parties.

  123. Buffy*

    I work for a university and staff receive 75% tuition. (Yay!) I spoke with my boss about my career track during a performance evaluation, and he supported me getting my master’s in Communication.

    The problem is, when I was an undergrad (at the same university as the one I’m working at/hoping to do grad school at) I didn’t have the best grades. Maybe 2.8? I had clinical depression and admittedly, was also a bit immature. I have a meeting scheduled with graduate advising to talk about the program and I’m worried I won’t qualify.

    If it helps, I think on paper my professional achievements have been good. The position I have now is fairly selective, over 200 applications. I also received a national and state level award for my work at a previous position (also at the university.) I’m planning on explaining my GPA with the generic “medical condition that’s now been resolved.” Any other tips??

    2. me again*

      If it isn’t a super elite school. the GPA statement will probably give them what you need. They often just “conditionally accept” new students with lower GPAs (especially at the graduate level). You have to take a couple classes and earn a specific GPA and then you should be good to go. I wouldn’t stress, especially if you have established relationships at the university.

      1. Buffy*

        I’d be into that! I was actually thinking of starting out as a non-degree student to kind of test my academic rigor again.

    3. fposte*

      The explanation is fine, especially since there’s subsequent achievement to justify the truth of it. What you may run into is rules about minimum GPA (our university has a minimum 3.0 for grad school), and it’s worth being ready to ask if there are waivers possible and how you could get one, if so. Sometimes there’s an opportunity to take a course for no credit as an external student to prove your ability to keep up and to be considered in your admission (it will also give you a rec from somebody within the program, which is huge), so be ready to ask about that.

    4. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Is it possible to take a few courses before applying for the graduate program to show that you can handle the courses and then explain the bad GPA? I had a crappy GPA when I graduated because I started in a very tough program because my parents pushed me into it.

    5. Stellaaaaa*

      Check out the official requirements for admission into the program. My school required a 3.0 for most majors. You’re not too far off from that. Make sure your letters of recommendation are from profs who maybe knew a little about what you were going through at the time. You’re not talking about getting into Harvard Law. You got your BA there, you work there, and I assume you’d be okay with taking some remedial undergrad courses if necessary.

      1. Buffy*

        Yes, another thing I’m struggling with is if I need recommendation letters. Former bosses, absolutely I could get glowing ones. Professors, not so much. As sometimes people get, I was very socially awkward so tended to avoid creating personal relationships.

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      Unless your graduate program is super selective then I highly doubt that they would turn you down. They might do a conditional accept because of policy but we don’t generally tell employees no unless it’s really bad.

    7. vpc*

      I think my undergrad GPA was around 2.75, 2.8 — three years out in the world and I was accepted at two of the three grad schools I applied to (and the third one was a long-stretch, highly exclusive, best-in-my-field choice). I took door #2 which got me – when compared with peers from other schools in our entry-level cohort at Large Employer – an education that was at least equivalent, maybe better, for about 20% the price. A lot of that educational quality depended on me and my investments as a student – people in my cohort from schools that could arguably have been called “better” did not have the same level of skills as I did, because they hadn’t applied themselves as hard.

      In other words, that’s a great explanation if it comes up – but it may not, depending on what university you are at and how exclusive / competitive the program you’re applying for is. It probably won’t be an automatic rejection, though.

  124. Dreams of Telecommuting*

    Hi Everyone!
    I’m just so sick and tired of the commute here in the DC area, and wondering what are the best companies/jobs that offer at least 3 days a week to full time telecommuting? My entire background is different stages of Accounting. Any ideas/suggestions welcome. Thanks!

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’ve heard good things about Capital One – depending on where you are in the DC area and what exactly you do, that might be a good option

    2. Janet*

      I work for NASA — telecommuting is encouraged, but as far as I know, not full time t/c unless it’s special circumstances. We employ plenty of accountants. Check USAjobs.gov to look for openings at NASA HQ. There may also be contracting positions available as well. I don’t work at Headquarters, so I don’t know what companies might have contracts there, and their telecommuting policies.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Depending on whether you are living in DC, MD or VA, I would look outside DC. You might find that some of the small to mid-size DOD contractors will be totally supportive of WFH. I second looking at USAjobs as well.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      Not sure if you’ve considered applying for local-area government jobs, but sometimes they will allow telecommuting. I guess you won’t know unless you make some inquiries. If you are on the Virginia side of the river, here are 4 URLs for local-area govt job sites in northern Virginia, if you want to pursue a non-corporate path. Be sure to search by skill rather than job title, since titles can differ from place to place:
      Fairfax County: http://agency.governmentjobs.com/fairfaxcounty/default.cfm
      Arlington: https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/arlington/
      Falls Church: http://www.fallschurchva.gov/Search/Results?searchPhrase=jobs&page=1&perPage=50
      Alexandria: https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/alexandria

  125. Mallory Janis Ian*

    https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/open-thread-december-9-10-2016.html#comment-1293016

    I posted in December about my direct report who has been to HR for bad behavior, and I have an update of sorts. My boss and I hadn’t had a chance to talk about my report since my boss was traveling all of December. I have been documenting everything since the previous incident, and I noticed that there were multiple small incidents in December of the report being disrespectful to various faculty and staff.

    My boss and I visited with our college HR rep, and he visited with the university HR, and we decided that (1) My boss will talk to my report, with me present, since it seems that I’m wasting my breath trying to coach him; (2) During the talk with my boss and me, my report will be given a formal written reprimand, which will disqualify him from any merit pay increase for a year; (3) If he has any other incident while the written reprimand is in effect, he may be either put on probation or immediately dismissed.

    I felt pretty good about the situation after visiting with the HR rep. I kept feeling like I was doing something wrong because the direct report’s behavior is not changing for more than a couple weeks at a time. But the HR rep said that the way I’d addressed and documented everything was exemplary, and that he wished everyone would do it that way. Then it hit me — sometimes, we can do all the right things, and we still can’t change another person’s behavior. I was taking his failure to change as failure on my part, but the HR rep helped me see that that’s not necessarily so.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Sounds like you handled it really well. Your report is an ass. Hopefully this will make him wake up and smell the coffee, or he’ll be out the door quickly!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can’t make a horse drink the water. Am shaking my head.

      It’s baffling how many people will not take solid, clear advice/instruction.

      Hopefully he shapes up or he finds work he is more suited for . Congrats on handling this well.

    3. Observer*

      Yes, Yes, Yes. You can only control your own behavior. You did all the right things – most importantly, you have been clear with him about what he needs to do and not do, and about the potential consequences to him.

      I’m sure that the rest of your staff appreciates that you are dealing with the process rather than shrugging and saying “It stinks, but you can’t fire anyone here.”

  126. Aye*

    Oh emails.

    I signed up for a trial service through work as just an individual customer. I tried the service a couple times and stopped using it for reasons, but stayed on their notification lists in case I need a backup and decide it’s worth the expense. The other day I got an email from one of their customer service people about my not using their service. This was the first time I received an email from them that wasn’t an automated message. The email began “Hey Aye,” and proceeded to address me as if I was their long-time college friend as they asked why I wasn’t buying their stuff anymore.

    I know that with some areas/people, addressing someone like that is totally fine, and I get that. But in this case, and as a customer, I find the overfamiliarity unprofessional and bristled at the extremely casual tone. I’m working out how to reply and include a way to basically say “Please don’t talk to me like this,” but I’d be interested to hear what kind of cultural differences you all have seen with this and if “handling it” became necessary

    1. Manders*

      The trend in email marketing these days is to get very personal very fast. Even in automated emails, copywriters are encouraged to try to make the text feel personal and informal.

      I feel weird about it too, but I’ve seen many highly paid email marketers claiming that it’s the best practice. It’s a big part of the reason why I don’t want to be in email marketing.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Ugh. I hate that blurring between friendly-personal and friendly-professional relationships.

      2. Aye*

        That’s really weird to me. I don’t think there’s a contradiction between being friendly (or even somewhat personal) and politely formal. But this approach seems to be relying on the assumption that everyone you interact with is born and raised in a place where super-informality is universally culturally acceptable. I think it overlooks the fact that not everyone doing business in the U.S. operates in the same cultural framework.

        –Or is this a thing in other countries too?

        1. Manders*

          I suspect that this has something to do with the fact that a lot of industries that are leading the charge in digital marketing are based on the west coast. That particular brand of informality creeps into everything until you don’t even consider that it’s not the norm everywhere.

          It’s similar to the way a bunch of west coast tech companies messed up products by insisting that they must connect to the internet constantly or at regular intervals–when you live in a big west coast city with a huge population of engineers, it can be hard to remember that reliable broadband access isn’t even an option in many areas.

    2. Sadsack*

      I rather like your original wording: I am not currently interested in using your product, but have continued to receive updates in case that changes. For now, nothing has changed. I feel I should mention that, as a customer, I find your overfamiliarity unprofessional and do not appreciate your extremely casual tone. I hope you understand and will not continue with this approach.

      Maybe something like that?

      1. fposte*

        I was thinking a shout-out to Hamilton with a “Who the F is this?” but that’s better. I suppose :-).

    3. ZVA*

      I would just reply with the level of formality you feel is appropriate and leave it at that; maybe they’ll take the hint? I wouldn’t bring up their tone. It doesn’t sound like they said anything offensive or rude; it’s just too casual for your taste.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Being addressed that way seems overly casual to the point of being disrespectful.

      It’s really hard to judge tone in an email. Focus on the content of the email and imagine it being stated in a flat, matter-of-fact, speaking voice.

      It seems to be a separate issue from why you’re not using their email service, though.

  127. Anon Today*

    I got a calendar request a week out from my grandboss (sent via her assistant). The subject line is: “Topic to be shared at meeting.”

    I’m, unusually for me, not freaked out about it. But c’mon. As my husband said when I texted him about it: “That’s, like, ‘Don’t Freak Out Your Employees 101.'”

    1. Mallory Janis Ian*

      “Don’t Freak Out Your Employees 101” — exactly. Even if you don’t freak somebody out, you’re going to make them die of curiosity.

    2. Mindful anon*

      I had a boss who (pre-email) used to leave notes in our boxes that said ” See me ASAP.” Gulp…

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Ha. My previous boss used to text people and just say, “Employee — boss. Call me.” He used their names, though, as in, “Laura — John. Call me.” It used to freak people out wondering, “What does he want? Whaaaat does he waaaaant??!”

    3. Harold*

      Just had one of those. “Brief department meeting” on short notice, which usually means some kind of personnel move. This time it was an upper boss announcing his retirement.

  128. Parvati81*

    Sorry, I just have to vent. This year, my husband and I were blessed with our first baby, a baby girl. I took the maximum leave allowable (I live in one of the few states that allows paid family leave). I kept in touch with coworkers, checked email, answered questions about projects, and even brought my baby in to meet staff. For background, I had the same position as a man who worked remotely. While he is a wonderful person, he is very nervous and the type to say “no” rather than “yes” when it comes to projects. We were given monthly productivity goals, and I regularly met or exceeded mine while he was regularly behind. I even would take some of his work. Unfortunately, our manager, who was familiar with the situation, quit and left the same day I went on leave.
    Two weeks before I was scheduled to go back, I received a letter (not even certified mail) that my position was being eliminated and I had been chosen as I didn’t have seniority. I talked to a few attorneys, as there is documentation showing my productivity and that I had landed one of the largest accounts in the organization’s history, but unfortunately they said I had no case. I am the family breadwinner, and my husband had just quit his job to stay home with the baby. I also held the family insurance. Needless to say, this through my family in a whirlwind. I have been job searching as much as I can since then, but I was laid off during a historically slow hiring time for my field, and there just isn’t much out there and job searching while caring for a young infant who doesn’t nap all day is difficult. The job loss was also a blow to my self-esteem, which may be showing through in interviews. It just really burns my biscuits how family unfriendly the U.S. is to working parents. Sorry, I just needed to blow off some steam, as I am having a bit of trouble moving on from this.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’m so sorry! I can’t imagine how hard this must be. I’ve got a newborn at home and I’m finding it difficult to apply to jobs, but I still have my current job.

      I wish you luck in your job search and Congrats on your sweet baby girl!

    2. fposte*

      Wow, that is really tough, and a very poor decision on the business’s part. I’m sorry. (Congratulations on your little girl, though!)

    3. Drew*

      That’s ridiculous of your former employer (seniority should be *a* factor in layoffs, but certainly not the only one and IMO not the most important) and I’m very sorry they did that during what should be a celebratory time. Best wishes on finding a new position soon.

    4. JenM*

      I’m sorry you’d can’t sit back and enjoy this time. Are you in contact with your old manager? He may be able to help with your job search. And congrats on your new baby :)

      1. Parvati81*

        Thanks for the suggestion. The very day I lost my job, I contacted my all my previous managers to ask them to let me know if they hear of any jobs. I’m in nonprofit and on the board of a NPO, so the ED there is on my side also. They would hire me, but lack the funds, and I simply don’t have time to parent full time, search for jobs, serve on a board, and look for a grant to fund my salary.

    5. Observer*

      This stinks. I’m surprised that the lawyers say you have no case. Maybe the EEOC might be more helpful.

      Bluntly, this doesn’t sound like a case of being unfriendly to working parents, but to women. Unless your colleague was working there for MANY more years than you or *everything* there is highly seniority based to the exclusion of merit etc. this just sounds like discrimination.

  129. Bananas*

    I just accepted a new job and resigned my old one. Yaaayy!!! I’m so looking forward to the new opportunity, but I’ll miss the people I work with now a lot.

    Thanks Alison! I’ve been reading your blog religiously, and I think it really helped me out during this job search!

  130. Anonymouse*

    Can anyone suggest some language for how to ask if my temp position is likely to become perm, or when it might end? I have been in this assignment for about 3 months, it’s in my desired field and really enjoy the company and the team, and they really seem to like me as well. I would love to be made perm (and rec’v benefits) here, but if that’s not likely, I would probably begin casually looking at job postings. I’m just not exactly sure how to broach the subject with my boss.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Ask for a one-on-one with your boss. Say something like “Jane, I want you to know that I really enjoy working at XXX company. I feel that the team and I get along really well, and I’m especially interested in XXX duty. What does the status of my position look like going forward? I would love to be made a permanent team member, if possible.”

  131. Backroads*

    So… here is a situation my husband is currently dealing with regarding hostile work environment. One employee has been constantly insulting some of the other employee’s over their religious beliefs. This is pretty much a daily cruelty. When spoken to about it, he said that as a non-theist is comments don’t count because, wait for it, “the hostile work environment training examples only had religious employees harrassing other employees.” Managements is still hemming and hawing over this.

      1. Backroads*

        It’s a smallish company and this employee in question is one of the original employees of the company… I think they’re nervous about making a scene with him.

        1. LCL*

          Tell management, not the employee, that they will be sued over this. Management can then make up their mind what to do. Religious based stuff gets into federal anti discrimination territory, in the US. Ask management how a federal investigation will help productivity and profits.

        2. Observer*

          LCL is right. Your husband should make it sound like HE is going to sue. But rather “someone is may sue or they may just call the EEOC, and that’s going to be problem for the company, even under the best circumstances.”

          These people are asking for legal trouble, but also just general management trouble. This guy is being a jerk, and people are going to see that jerks can get away with stuff. It’s a good way to build a dysfunctional environment.

          I don’t want to get too political here, but this is relevant to this issue: While I’m sure lots of people believe the the EEOC may look the other way when if comes to gender discrimination,I would say that it is HIGHLY unlikely they will look the other way at charges of religious people being discriminated against – especially if one of the victims is Christian.

          1. Observer*

            OOPS. Typo.

            “Your husband should make it sound like HE is going to sue.”

            Should be “Your husband should NOT make it sound like HE is going to sue.”

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      That is really ridiculous. Leaving possible legal issues aside, how would any manager think that it’s okay to allow one employee to be constantly insulting other employees over anything? It doesn’t have to rise to the level of hostile work environment for management to tell him to stop it or get fired.

  132. Newbie Engineer*

    Hey all,

    What do you suggest for wearing on overnight flights with your boss? I’m a new engineer and my new role involves international travel once a month but this is my first time traveling with my boss. It’s an overnight flight so I want to be comfortable but am not sure what is professional.

    For more background I am a mid 20’s female engineer traveling with my male boss who is twice my age and normally work attire is business casual during the day.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’d think a pair of comfy pants and sweater would be appropriate. I usually travel in this amazing pair of legging-esque pants that don’t look like leggings, but if wearing something that tight makes you uncomfortable then a pair of looser linen pants might be good.

    2. Backroads*

      I’d pick one of your more comfortable outfits of your usual work attire. I wouldn’t change it up fashion-wise, just pick the “best” one.

    3. oldfashionedlovesong*

      In addition to the suggestions below, since we’re talking a long haul flight: you could always dress regular business casual to board the plane, and include in your carry-on a pair of more polished-looking yoga pants (I’m thinking a boot cut style in a heavier weight material – google Nike legend dri fit boot cut to see what I’m picturing), and change into them a few hours after boarding, maybe after the meal service. By this time it’s unlikely anyone is looking at your clothes, and anyway it’s very normal to change during an overnight flight. Change back to your work pants shortly before landing, and if you’ve roll-packed them after taking them off, they won’t even be too wrinkly.

    4. Drew*

      You could certainly talk to him and say that you usually wear casual/comfy clothes for travel, especially long-distance travel, but you want to be sure to be professional since this is a work trip. He may come back and say that he’s going to wear jeans and a sweatshirt and that you shouldn’t worry at all.

    5. Pat Benetardis*

      You should totally ask him. Personally I wear something very comfy, because I have to work upon arrival (after freshening up) and mote comfortable I am, the better I sleep.

  133. Anon Accountant*

    So I’m an accountant (obviously from my user name) and I’ve been doing a lot more clerical duties at work due to being short staffed.

    I cover the phones and am doing a lot of typing because our admin isn’t good at typing by her own admission. How do I build/keep current my skills when I’m not using my skills?

    1. Temperance*

      I would push back on the typing, quite frankly. I also think you should push back, as much as feasible, on the admin duties – can you split these with other accountants? Are you the most junior person there?

      1. fposte*

        Yes. It’s one thing to do it because somebody’s out or everybody take turns, but doing it when they’re already paying a person to do it? That’s organizationally absurd.

          1. fposte*

            If I were her boss, yes. If I weren’t, I’d be saying “Sorry, can’t help you, have to do accounting because I’m an accountant” and noting to the admin’s boss my puzzlement about why the person paid to do this position can’t do this position and wants me to.

          2. Anon Accountant*

            I’m just a lowly coworker and from what I’ve seen she just isn’t a good fit for her job. She continually lets the paper in the copier/main printer center run out and other mild annoyances. We had an excellent admin who left a year ago to take an HR position and from seeing how well she kept things running to now is such a drastic change.

            1. Observer*

              So what? You STILL shouldn’t be doing her job. Don’t talk to her about it, but outside of refusing to do what you boss directly tells you to do, DO NOT DO HER WORK.

      2. Anon Accountant*

        No. I have 9 years accounting experience and we have 2 bookkeepers plus a junior accountant and a intern. Sorry for not responding earlier. I tried printing W-2s and the printer wouldn’t align correctly. Ugh

  134. Master Bean Counter*

    Question for the collective:
    A coworker, let’s call her Petunia, had a close family member pass away today. Jane, another coworker, came around and said they were going to get a card and some flowers for the Petunia. The first thing that jumped out of my mouth was, why don’t we get her pizza gift cards instead? Knowing that this death will cause out of town family to camp out in Petunia’s house. I might be biased because I’m allergic to the lilies that seem to dominate funeral bouquets, and my southern Methodist upbringing might be creeping in here, but in my opinion food is better than flowers.
    So would you rather receive flowers or gift cards for food, if you were in the same situation?

    1. fposte*

      I would rather get flowers, but I’d be okay with food. OTOH, I would be slightly taken aback by pizza gift cards (but then I’m in the Midwest where that just seems like shirking on your casserole duty).

      2. Master Bean Counter*

        Well I don’t have time today to source tamales. Which would be the local equivalent of a Midwest casserole.

        1. fposte*

          Honestly, unless you know the person well enough to know that pizza would be a clear winner, I wouldn’t do the pizza card either way–pizza is inherently casual, and it’s not a casual situation. Do grocery card, do fruit basket, do flowers, but I really would pass on the pizza.

          1. Master Bean Counter*

            Pizza would be good with her. I actually just suggested food of some sort. Given her house is about to be filled with teenage relatives, it seemed logical.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I would totally prefer gift cards to flowers, especially lilies, because I have cats so won’t keep lilies in the house. That said, I guess expectations vary by individual – some people feel pretty strongly about what’s “correct” and what isn’t.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I’d be okay with either, but I have some serious dietary restrictions that make it impossible for me to eat at a lot of places, so I’d want a gift card for a grocery store or something.

      That said, I am also allergic to many plants and flowers, so… there’s no good option unless I was given a sympathy cactus!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d do flowers, unless you know she would like the pizza thing. I actually did flowers (specifically a non-funeral display, something cheerful) and has it sent to a coworkers house. Then the department put together a small gift basket for the coworkers desk with some homemade baked goods and a card and a few little things.

      Also, if you can, see if you can take some things off Petunia’s desk at this tough time. Not coming back to “insanity” when she returns maybe the best gift you can give.

    5. jdm*

      One thing we do around here for someone who has lost a loved one is a big basket with grocery essentials — coffee, tea, sugar, creamer, filters, paper towels, TP, kleenex, disposable plates + flatware, cups, mints, etc. Usually relatives and friends bring food, so these items compliment the food — and can be used later if there are extras.

    6. Anono-me*

      Could you check the obituary or funeral home notice to see if either of these mention a preference?

      If you do want to suggest the office go with a food gift card, maybe check to see if anyone else has heard Petunia mention a restaurant with delivery service that she likes. Then suggest that one.

      YMMV – I usually go with a veggie, meat, cheese and/or fruit tray combo with crackers and company quality paper plates, cups, napkins and plastic utensils. (But this is for people I know well enough to be aware of any food rules that need to be respected. ) This makes it easier to feed drop in guests and for the person in mourning to eat something healthy even if cooking is just too much.

    7. costume teapot*

      Pizza?! That is a choice that would frankly baffle me more than help me. There are too many potential issues fraught with pizza, but why not a Visa gift card or a gift card to the local grocery store? Especially if that store has a grocery delivery service. It still does seem to fall slightly short off the casserole duty (I’m not even Midwestern, but maybe it’s my mother’s Southern roots…) but would likely still be much appreciated.

      That said, I’m coming from this from the perspective of someone who hates pizza generally, so…not sure how that affects it. ;)

    8. Tabby Baltimore*

      Food gift cards, hands down, especially if your co-worker will be responsible for the family member’s funeral and burial arrangements, in addition to hosting out-of-town relatives. If you know her well enough to know she’d appreciate them, the pizza cards idea sounds okay, but also check on the pizza company’s website to see if it caters sandwiches, too, since older folks–in my experience–aren’t big pizza eaters. Making this thoughtful gesture, regardless of which you choose, is indeed a kindness.

    9. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      Food is better than flowers but pizza isn’t the right tone for a death….and you need to send a thing, I think, and not a gift card.

      But, I’m an Old.

  135. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I think I need a pep talk. You all are so good at that. Anyway… I started my new job about 5 weeks ago, but we were out for 10 days for the holidays and we just shut down for a couple of days because of weather. So far, I love it. I love the people, I love the environment, I think the work is interesting. But… I have nothing substantial to DO yet, and it’s wearing me down. I keep feeling like everyone hates me and wonders why they hired me. This isn’t at all rational– people have been so welcoming, and besides, I was just included in two days of meetings with senior management, during which I was asked my opinion more than once and I certainly felt free to give it. My boss, who has been great, even made a comment yesterday about how this is a slow period and in a couple of weeks I will “finally get to do some of the work we hired you for”– so I don’t think people wonder why I’m not producing anything. Every task I’ve been asked to complete has earned great feedback, even if it’s just, “Thanks, this is exactly what I needed.” I know that I’ve already proven myself to be personable and organized (a first, for me!). I’ve also shared my thoughts on some things and my boss, who told me in interviews that he has a very specific way of doing things, appreciated it and took my advice.

    But I am constantly feeling like I’m not good enough and I’m not impressive enough. My last job was a constant battle to prove how “awesome” I was, because we were all expected to be “awesome”. I think part of this is that I’m not busy, so my thoughts are allowed to run away with themselves, and for me, that leads to spurts of depression. (I haven’t seen a therapist regularly in several years, but after my insurance here kicks in, I plan to seriously look into it again.) I also know that once things get moving, I will probably long for the days where I have nothing to do, but for now? I’m so happy to be here, learning new things, but I feel like I can’t contribute anything substantial yet and it’s pretty rough. Any ideas on how to get through this?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Being new and bored at work sucks! Just keep trying to learn. Soon these days will pass.

    2. Drew*

      It sounds like everything’s going fine and you have a touch of imposter syndrome. Keep on rocking your bad self and it should pass.

    3. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      Goofball.

      There are only a couple of different ways a new job starts and this is one of them. This is the Not Enough Work To Do Yet start, which is vastly preferable to the OMG What The Hell Did I Get Myself Into And Nobody Will Train Me Swamped start.

      The cure for this is time, love, it’s time. So stop making yourself crazy, be as awesome as a task lets you be and time will fix this.

  136. Ivy Gator*

    In preparation for graduation (May 2017! Yikes!), I started applying for jobs in the cities that I would like to live in. I had a phone interview that went well, but our timelines did not match up– they needed someone to star by the end of February. I sent a thank you email saying that I enjoyed learning more about the position, and would keep checking their site to see if anything else opened up that aligned better with my timeline.

    At the same time, I got another interview invite. I explained that I would have to travel out and gave my preferred availability. The hiring manager called me up to ask when I planned to relocate, and once again, they needed someone in the next few weeks. I was super excited about this position, and want to send her some kind of note, but I don’t know what to say. We ended up not setting up an interview. She said that they may or may not hire again in the summer, but I would ideally love to work for this department. Saying thanks for speaking with me doesn’t sound appropriate since our phone call was ~4 minutes of hatching out relocation plans, and never anything about the position or their work.

    Any advice?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would send a note that says something like, “I’m sorry X didn’t work out, but I was very excited for the oppertunity to speak with you about X. If a position does become open in Y, I would be very interested.”

    2. ThatGirl*

      I think you’re jumping the gun a little bit, honestly. You probably want to start looking more like 4-6 weeks before graduation.

      1. fposte*

        Yup. I know there are industries that do hunt earlier, but it seems pretty clear this isn’t one. And keep in mind there’s a risk of turning employers off by asking them to spend time on your application when you’re not ready to start a job.

      2. Ivy Gator*

        See, I’m in research. For my last position, I applied in Feb., interviewed shortly after, and started in November. I can’t afford to go that long again, so I wanted to get a headstart.

        I also didn’t anticipate their turnaround time to be 2 days. I applied Jan. 2nd and heard back from them on Jan. 4th, which also caught me off guard.

        I do appreciate what you are both saying though.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Fair enough – but in that case you should make it clear in your cover letter that you are not available till May and be prepared for timelines to maybe not match up. And I agree with AnotherLibrarian about the note.

      3. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I’m interested that you’re even getting calls — I just reject people who are still in school when I’m looking to hire and get someone in the door.

  137. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    My wife works from home. We also keep a foster cat in the home office. Current foster is very scared and hissing and hiding.

    Today, he hid ON the desk, behind the computer. My wife then had to work with him stuck there too scared of her to move! Death glares all day.

        1. LCL*

          Kitty found a warm safe space to be next to his person. This is a good sign, really. I think, I am a dog person and it would be good news in a dog.

    2. notgiven*

      My son works at home. He has had to introduce his cat to teleconferences because she got in his lap, or once his shoulder, during the conference. It may be the people talking that attracts her, she usually lays on the windowsill.

  138. My other username is a Porsche*

    I have a colleague who’s transferred to my team from another department and is being kind of slow to pick up on team norms. It’s not hugely problematic, just a series of minor irritations, but surely when you move to a new role with new duties and ways of doing things you pay attention and copy what other people do? There were two other new starters recently who’ve picked things up fine so it’s not like it’s objectively hard. I am not this person’s manager.

    For example, we have a system where you open a ticket, resolve it OR flag it for follow-up. Colleague was resolving jobs but also leaving them flagged for follow-up – I discovered this the other day when colleague was away.

    It also took them two months to notice that whenever anyone does XYZ they let the team know. They were just doing XYZ and not telling anyone.

    It’s all small stuff like this but it makes it seem like they aren’t paying attention to norms and also are somehow resistant to anyone knowing what they’re doing – it’s like they’re less accountable to the team than everyone else as they just ignore conventions (which exist because they are actually necessary).

    At the moment I’m bringing things up individually when and only when it’s in my remit to mention them but it’s doing my head in.

    1. Sadsack*

      Are these things he is being told about and forgetting, or is he just supposed to realize these things on his own? Is there documentation he is supposed to be following? I feel for you, but also for the new guy who may be learning a new job without enough direct instruction.

      1. My other username is a Porsche*

        I hear you but they are really blindingly obvious things that you’d have to actively ignore. They’ve been shown and can see what everyone else does.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Nervous people make mistakes like this, they miss the obvious.

          I have worked in places where people refuse to train. And usually it’s under the guise of “well it’s so obvious”. Obvious to the people who have been doing the work for years.
          One place I worked refused to believe that there could be different methods for handling the same problem. Their method was correct, no other method existed and why wasn’t this info in my genes at birth? They were exhausting.

          Treat the new hire in the manner you would like to be treated if you were a new hire. If everyone has the same justification you show here this guy won’t last long. The guy probably thinks he does not have a friend in the place and he might be right.

  139. Language Lover*

    Does anyone have any tips on preparing for phone interviews when extended phone calls wear you out?

    I’m an introvert but I do better in person. Even when talking with my best friend, which is easy, I’m about to take a nap once we hit the hour mark. I am trying to think how I’m going to keep up my energy for a 60-90 minute phone interview I have been asked to do.

    I’m lucky since I like my current job so it’s not like I feel a ton of pressure to ace it but I would like to do well.

    1. Manders*

      I’ve never had a phone interview that long! I think my longest was under 40 minutes. Unless your industry has some rare reason for keeping people on the line for hours, I don’t think you have to worry about phone interviews lasting an hour or longer.

      1. Language Lover*

        They did give me an estimate closer to an hour. Perhaps it’d be shorter and they just make sure we both schedule enough time.

        40 minutes would still be a bit draining. Thank you for the feedback, though.

    2. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I hate talking on the phone – I’m also an introvert, and I’ve never been a phone talker; when I can’t see someone’s face I often find it very difficult to focus. Since I’m looking for jobs in a different state though (more on that above!) I have no choice but to do a LOT of phone interviews (plus Skype, which has its own pros and cons). Here are things I resort to:

      – I take notes on a laptop (quietly!) while talking. It helps me keep focused and also helps me keep track of things they say that I know I want to bring up later/ask questions about/relate my experiences back to, etc.
      – Weird, but… sometimes I sit in bed. I’ve read lots of advice that you should dress in interview clothes and sit nicely at a desk to sort of put yourself in the mindset, and obviously I do that for Skype interviews, but if it’s a regular phone call, sitting up in bed and wrapping myself in my duvet relaxes me and helps me keep my energy up. Obviously don’t do this if being near your bed automatically makes you feel sleepy as it does for some people, like my mom!
      – Keep water or some other beverage to hand. Nothing too hot or too cold or carbonated, since that can irritate your throat and cause you to start coughing, but sometimes if you’re flagging a quiet sip of something can perk you up.
      – If you can find them, pull up pictures of your interviewer(s) from LinkedIn or the company website to look at while you’re talking, to remind yourself of the people on the other end of the line. As a very visual person I really find this to be helpful.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. EmilyG*

        If it’s not a video call, I basically pace around. Keeping moving keeps my mind engaged. I’d also have a beverage, but not too large, just in case the call is indeed long… ;)

        1. Language Lover*

          I could see doing that as well except I think sometimes pacing around can have the unintended consequence of increase heart and breathing rate. Just the smallest increase in breath rate can make someone go from sounding normal to a heavy breather.

          Otherwise, I’m a pacer too.

      2. Language Lover*

        These are some great tips. I probably won’t be near a bed. I could probably do it at work but I’d feel a bit uncomfortable. I may do it in a car which, as long as it’s not too cold, would actually be comfortable. Otherwise, I’ll have to find a comfy chair.

        I do plan on having drinks and perhaps eating something before I do this. I get super uncomfortable in suits so I will likely just wear what I normally wear to work.

        I don’t know specifically who I’m interviewing with but I do know the department is online and they likely have photos I could look at.

    3. NaoNao*

      Well, the good news is it won’t be a social conversation, so the onus won’t be on you to react emotionally and come up with new topics/read the room to determine when it’s time to wind it down. It will be a focused phone call, so you’ll be “working” on it, much the same as a conference call at work.

      I can also say I’ve never had a phone interview more than 60 minutes, and even that is long!

      Other tips:
      Move around if you can, change seating positions, change locations, etc
      Keep your resume and notes in front of you, you may even want to use a checklist to ensure you’ve covered all your topics and all your questions
      Practice any “elevator speeches” or answers to behavioral questions until they’re easy to recite and natural

      1. Language Lover*

        I should brush up on interview questions. I used to help people practice their interviewing skills. I’m not an expert but it definitely helped me figure out what is most impressive while interviewing. And I practiced a ton of interview questions for this job. I may be rusty, though.

  140. chickabiddy*

    Bet you didn’t think you would get any more holiday present questions!

    I’m a freelancer. I have a good working relationship (but definitely not at all personal) with my client, who is on the other side of the country. On December 14, I sent a holiday gift box of local cookies and treats. It remains undelivered by tracking number. In late December, client tells me that they have actually moved offices. I tell him that he may have a package at the old office. Tracking them shows package as “undeliverable, business closed”. I use the USPS Find Mail feature to try to redirect the box. Tracking shows that it made it to the new city but then it turned around and got sent back to me. It arrived at my house on Wednesday, I printed a new label and remailed it, and it is scheduled to arrive on Saturday.

    Should I say anything about how the box has bounced around the country for a month (yes, I know I should have asked myself that before remailing the box)? How much of a flake am I going to look like when my holiday gift arrives in the middle of January? If it matters at all, he did give me a holiday bonus.

    1. H.C.*

      I would just do a short explanation (e.g. “Sorry this was sent to your old office initially, hope you enjoy these treats!”) and leave it at that.

      1. Emi.*

        Yeah, that should be fine. If they moved offices (without telling you) they’re not going to be too surprised that some mail went astray.

  141. anon for this*

    My husband and I are having really intense baby fever but I’m new to my job. Given that we can delay pregnancy without too much hardship (except for the aforementioned baby fever), does this come under “don’t take time off when you’re new”? I know I don’t get FMLA until I’ve been here a year, so it would be at least that long, but would it look bad to take FMLA as soon as I’m eligible?

    1. NAME REQUIRED*

      If you get pregnant, you get pregnant. Many people plan it, some are “if it happens it happens” and some are “oops surprise!” so it’s not one of those things that is going to get the side-eye like “oh so she just waited until she had a year in to have a baby?! how dare she!”

      If the time is right, right now, for your family to start trying, then the time is right, right now. You’re gonna have 36-40 weeks (nearly 10 months) before the little bean gets here, even if you get pregnant this weekend, so you’ll come up on the eligibility anyway. No one is going to think you plotted on your FMLA leave to get pregnant. Theyre gonna congratulate you, maybe annoy you by touching your belly too much while at work, and possibly throw you a work shower!!

      Cheers

    2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I wouldn’t delay family planning for your job in this circumstance. You can’t take FMLA for a year–but pregnancy is 9 months long and it could take several months to get pregnant! I’d say if you want to be extra careful, delay by 3 months at the most.

  142. Bookfish*

    Longtime lurker, first time commenter.

    I just got a call for an interview! I’ve been in my current job for over four years and do enjoy it, but I am a bit burned out in some ways. I’m a social worker/case manager for individuals who are looking to overcome barriers to employment. I applied for an advisement position at my Alma Mater and I thought nothing would come of it, as I was automatically rejected previously. But they just called and set up a Skype interview! I’ve had phone interviews before, but never a Skype one. Though I guess I am grateful it’s Skype and not an in-person one for the first interview, as it’s a 6-hour drive to there for me currently.

    I’m kind of freaking out. It’s been so long since I’ve interviewed personally (though I help people prepare for their interviews all the time). And the job would likely be a pay cut, but I would be closer to family and I’d be working with a higher-functioning population (which is both good and bad). I guess we’ll see what comes of it. Follow Alison’s advice of assuming you don’t get it until an offer, right? Then I can decide. :-)

  143. Turkletina*

    While I think I handled this situation okay this morning, I’m wondering if anyone has any advice for how to make it less awkward if it comes up in the future. During an interview, I asked whether the interviewer had any concerns about my background that I could address while I was there. He said “Honestly, looking at your resume, I’d just be concerned about you driving all the way here from [town] every day!” I am not at all concerned about this — it’s a 40-minute drive, which doesn’t strike me as excessive, I like driving, and my last commute was about 35 minutes. The response I gave is that the club I go to for my main hobby is halfway between the potential work location and my hometown, and that the drive to the club after work would be significantly easier that from my previous employer. While this is true, I’m not sure it convinced the interviewer.

    So, any advice for handling questions about the length of the potential commute?

    1. fposte*

      That does seem a rather short commute to inquire about–are you having to go around a city or across a big rural area or something? I think a cheerful “It’s what I’m used to, so it’s fine by me” would be a nice tidy response that establishes the fact that this is a norm for you and not a new burden you’d have to overcome.

      1. Turkletina*

        It’s not exactly a straight shot (3-4 different highways are involved), but it’s all through suburbs and commuter towns. I did say something similar to your suggestion to another interviewer with a bit more success, so I’ll try to stick with that in the future. Thanks!

    2. Hermione*

      Weird. I wonder if most people live very local (walking distance?). I probably would have said something about it only being 5-10 minutes longer than my last commute, and thrown in that ‘it would be worth it because your company offers xyz opportunities that my last company didn’t!’

      1. Turkletina*

        Hmm, I hadn’t thought of where other folks live. I think the city it’s in is seen as THE place to live in the area (its reputation is compatible with the kind of non-profit work I was interviewing for), so it’s possible that most applicants are living much closer. Good point!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      You handled it just fine. It’s odd that the interviewer was so put off by a commute of 40 minutes! My coworker lives 90 minutes away and when we questioned her about that in the interview, she said she was moving closer to our location soon. Well, she didn’t… and now she complains about her commute frequently!

      In the future, do the same thing you did today. You could even say something like “Millions of people commute much further than I do, so I’m not sure what the fuss is about.”

      1. AshK434*

        I wouldn’t say the last part. It sounds like you’re lecturing the interviewer and is a bit adversarial in tone.

  144. Kay*

    My job is changing and shifting, which is not in and of itself a bad thing. It’s part of why I work in the industry I do: every day could be different, I get to put my finger in allllll the pies, and each project is different.

    The way it’s currently shifting is in a direction that will – relatively soon, pending funding – require another position to help take some of the mantle. It’s not clear to me whether that person will report to me or work alongside of me. It’s all theoretical, really.

    There are job duties I would absolutely like to keep, and they represent the newer, more growth type duties that I’m slowly adding now. They’re things I have experience with in previous jobs, but I’d be taking on bigger, more complicated, more tricky versions of them.

    How do I have the conversation with my boss that I’d like to move in that way, and if we hire someone, shed parts of my job that I’ve grown out of? In an ideal world we’d hire someone who is sort of an assistant to me who takes off my plate the day-to-day and I do more strategizing.

    My boss (the ED) is genuinely terrific, has high standards, and is easy to talk to – but also has clear and strong opinions on things and I sometimes leave our conversations feeling like I didn’t explain what I want or need clearly enough. Sometimes that’s because I’ve been talked out of it, and that’s fine – but sometimes I don’t entirely feel like I’ve explained myself enough.

    Any tips for guiding the way this goes over the next year or two? In many ways, I’m in a good position, because I have a track record and seniority and all that jazz, and I am playing a part in this process rather than being subjected to it, but it’s important to me that it come out in a way that continues to work for my career, because I could potentially have a long tenure at this organization if my job keeps evolving in interesting and thoughtful ways.

    1. Alexandra*

      Probably your best move is to be proactive and start planning now, on paper, what your ideal job split would look like. List out all your current duties, and filter them into tasks that you have to do or would like to continue doing and tasks that could be taken up by a more junior colleague. Work out what your new role would be and what theirs would look like.

      If you have this concrete plan laid out, obviously there are still areas your boss may disagree with, but this will show that you’ve thought it out carefully and have your reasons for the way you’ve gone.

  145. Jeannie*

    This is the first year my company has recognized Martin Luther King day as a holiday.
    Except, my department has decided no one can take the day off because we’re too busy.
    It’s disappointing. And while I don’t think the intent is inherently racist (we are indeed busy), the optics are so bad (like it’s not a “real” holiday).

    1. Emi.*

      Ook, that does look bad. Do they recognize things like Presidents’ Day?

      Could you have some sort of celebration or ceremony at work that wouldn’t take out too much time? I’m not really sure what that would look like (and I’ve heard horror stories of “yay, let’s have fried chicken and watermelon to celebrate civil rights!” so if someone at your workplace seems likely to try a stunt like that you might not want to give them a chance), but when I was a kid my mother had us watch the I Have A Dream speech on Youtube every year. But all the other ideas I can come up with sound more appropriate for a grade school.

      1. Jeannie*

        No, we don’t celebrate Presidents’ Day either. New Year’s, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas, plus a couple personal days. The worst part is that anyone who would normally have taken a personal day to celebrate didn’t put in the request since we thought we’d be off.
        They’re doing a couple things to try to make up for people having to work, but nothing specific to celebrate Dr. King.

    2. zora*

      We have a similar issue… our company used to get MLK every year. We were acquired by a bigger company, and they have way less holidays, and MLK is one of the ones they don’t give us. Which feels like bad optics to me, too. Sigh.

  146. Marcela*

    I am soooo distracted now. It’s been two weeks now… I do not want to work with Javascript/Angular, please somebody get me out of my misery :'(

    1. Effie*

      I’m so sorry to hear that! My bf is learning Angular now and he actually loves it. I don’t have any advice, just that I hope that it gets better soon :/

      1. Marcela*

        Thanks! Being fair to angular, probably the problem is that the former developer of this code wrote horrible stuff, not documented whatsoever. So I’m doing reverse engineering on some old angular code that surely is not supposed to look and work like this :(

  147. Sparkly Librarian*

    My interim boss’s term at my location ended at the end of 2016, and we have a super-short-term replacement (that we can’t keep because she already has a full-time job she really likes and is only covering us as sort of a favor to her boss). It is so much better here! She does stuff like ask us (regular staff) questions, take notes and follow up, write down things that the next manager will need to know (the 6 month interim apparently left NOTHING), keep her office door open, let us know when she’s going to be out, etc. She’s conscious of her managerial boundaries — like not making long-term decisions that will be owned by the next person in the chair in a month — and is also super-pleasant to work with. Everyone working here has been happier and nicer in the last two weeks!

  148. Alexandra*

    I just turned down a job that sounded terrible, and now I’m freaking out about it.

    I’m about to graduate with my master’s (about a month to go!) and I’ve obviously been applying like crazy to any job that even looks like it might fit me. I come from a small country and want to join the public sector along with everyone else graduating with my degree, so I’ve been hedging my bets a bit with other positions that look like I could deal with them for a year or two while working toward what I actually want.

    This was one of those positions. Part time and live in, my job would have been to manage and roster the RA’s for a few blocks of dorms at a University in the middle of our biggest city. I wasn’t excited about it, but I could do it, and live in there is nothing to sniff at given housing prices. I applied, forgot about it (well, added it to my spreadsheet of jobs applied for) and moved on.

    Out of the blue, I got a phone call. “Hi, I’m Sansa Stark from the University of King’s Landing. Did you recently apply to become RA Overlord?”

    Yes, yes I did. And yes, I knew it was live in, and yes, I knew it was part time.

    “Great! The salary we’re offering is $22 per hour for 20 hours work.”

    Fine, I thought. $23k a year isn’t going to be winning any awards, but it is only part time, so I can always find something else. “Okay…”

    “And from that, rent is $250 per week…”

    This is where she lost me. I was lying in my bed in my perfectly nice room (she didn’t call at a terrible time, I just like working on my dissertation from here) that I pay $180 per week to live in and get all utilities. I live with five others, sure, but not 70 teenagers. “Sorry, I thought you said it was live in?”

    “Oh, yes, but you have to pay rent for tax purposes!”

    “So, that brings my weekly income down to $190.”

    “Well, after tax, it’s close to $180. But that’s still decent pocket money.”

    There was an awkward pause. Finally, she broke it. “Would you like me to take you off the list?”

    “Yes please.” I said.

    I think it was probably the right call. It’s not a job I wanted, but one I was willing to take for location reasons and saving purposes and the desire just to have a job. Still, the moment we said our goodbyes and hung up, I panicked. What if I never get hired? What if that was the best job I could have expected? What if my job alerts are right, and I should be applying to more prostitution roles? (I live in a country where that’s legal, and I’m not sure if my filters are too liberal if they’re coming up or just right. Either way, it’s a bit of a bummer when you’re graduating and the main job site is recommending you become an 18+ Princess!!!!)

    Anyone want to make me feel better by telling me I made a reasonable call? Or not; if I was stupid, feel free to tell me.

    1. Dzhymm, BfD*

      She lost me at “You have to pay rent for tax purposes”…. uh, wha? I definitely would have asked her to unpack that statement. Any job that requires you to pay THEM is not a job worth taking.

      All I could think is that the use of the room rent-free might count as “imputed income” and subject to taxation… but that’s a bit of a stretch. Even so, if the market rent on that room really is $250/week, I’d take the rent-free room and pay the tax (since the tax on the room would be a fraction of the $250/wk).

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’m guessing they do it this way to avoid people getting angry when they find out that they’re getting $9k in salary and paying taxes on $23k–but then you have to freaking tell applicants that they’re still functionally only getting $9k in salary.

        1. Alexandra*

          That sounds like an accurate guess! And the fact that she called without emailing or anything first to give salary details to me in hourly figures then rent per week seems so sketchy. Nothing in writing, no real time to calculate. I’m decent at mental arithmetic, but I definitely know a few people who would have heard the figures presented all stated very quickly and just said yes, only to be completely blindsided by the reality of the annual salary.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I picture her having a list of people to call.
            She’s working down the list as each one says “no, thanks”.

            This would explain no email, nothing in writing, no time to think about it and so on.

    4. Observer*

      You made the right call. Not only do the finances stink, but so does their behavior and attitude.

  149. Misophonia?*

    Biological noises….ugh. My boss snorts. My coworkers snort. My boss will even contort his face to try to dislodge the mucus then hack it back up. My new coworker snorts mucus all day and headphones won’t drown it out anymore. It’s making me want to look for another job.

    1. AshK434*

      That sounds absolutely terrible. You have my sympathies. I would legit look into sitting as far away from these people as possible.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Ew!

      It sounds like an office full of allergens. Maybe the office needs to be cleaned more thoroughly. Maybe you need a new janitor. It’s too bad Christmas is over. You could have given everyone neti pots.

      Or maybe everyone needs allergy desensitization shots. Do you have a medical plan? If so, it should be covered.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Can you bring in a little air purifier for your desk area?

      It really does seem like there is an allergy problem in that building. See any mold anywhere? If yes, report it, please. That stuff can get nasty.

  150. JC Denton*

    At what point does having a higher degree (e.g., a B.S. or a M.S.) become irrelevant as compared to work experience?

    I ask because we’re interviewing candidates for a Teapot designer. The top candidate only has an associate’s, but has been in the Teapot design and architecture work with various competitors for over 15 years. They come highly recommended, but my boss (who is ultimately the hiring authority), wants to lowball them. This isn’t a significant lowball either; think about 30-40K. The candidate is looking to move to our part of the country, and it is cheaper than their current location, but I suspect they’ll turn their nose up at the offer if it’s that low.

    I’ve told my boss that’s really too low to get someone as highly qualified and recommended. His response? “They only have an associate’s degree.” I tried to counter with their work experience, and got an even more churlish response, “if they didn’t bother to spend four years learning, why should they be entitled to a better rate?”

    So while I’m not seeking advice on how to sway him. I am curious how prevalent this opinion is? Does your company hold strict academic standards for pay, regardless of prior experience?

    1. Camellia*

      No, thank goodness, but I have seen jobs at companies where they wouldn’t even talk to you if you didn’t have at least a four year degree, so it definitely is out there.

    2. Drew*

      Your boss is an ass. Over 15 years’ experience in the field counts for WAY more than two years of college.

    3. Emi.*

      I’ve only heard of this being a thing for federal GS jobs, and then it’s more about who can get hired at all. You boss does indeed sound like a churl.

    4. tigerStripes*

      What’s really important is how well the person will do the job, if the person treats other people decently, if the person is trustworthy.

      1. tigerStripes*

        However, one reason I got a BS instead of a 2 year degree was I was concerned that people wouldn’t take me as seriously unless I got the BS.

        1. JC Denton*

          If you were in your mid to late thirties, would you consider returning to finish your BS if you were already in the career world?

  151. Effie*

    I need some sympathy.

    Our most recent new hire is driving me up the wall. He does not. Listen. He seemed awesome when he started (he’d look for stuff to do, ask how he could help, etc) and it seems like once he got comfortable a month or two in he switched to doing the minimum or what he felt like and using the extra time to surf on the internet. Our office is super chill and while it can be easy to fall into that, we still know that we need to get our work done. He and I are in the same position and it’s definitely more self-directed and requires one to take initiative to look for stuff to do, people often won’t drop by asking for you to help unless they’re swamped, and there’s always little things to do. Which takes me to my next point…

    The thing is that right now, I’m heading up completing our 2016 filing (our office processes tons of paperwork) and he was assigned to help me. And yes filing is boring and it needs to be done perfectly because we only have paper records (industry standard), and I’ve caught careless mistakes more than once.

    The biggest thing is that he likes going on long monologues about how sucky our filing system was and how we need to not let it pile up again moving forward/in 2017. And I do not. Need. To hear it. Ever, let alone every time I give him more filing to do. I’m doing just as much as he is and in charge of keeping it all organized so no, I’m not just dumping the filing on him and doing something less boring. Also, I had nothing to do with the previous (non-existent) filing system – last year, before either of us started, the office was super short-staffed and got a ton of extra client volume so they were doing major overtime just to keep up with client demand, and there was no time for anyone to file. I’ve explained this more than once and seriously, I just want it done. I know it sucks, and complaining about it (especially every time) does nothing to change the facts.

    I also detect at least a hint of (unconscious?) condescension sometimes – I’m in my late twenties and look a lot younger, and he’s in his thirties so I think he believes that he has a lot more work experience than I do and I couldn’t possibly know how to keep filing organized.

    I’m at BEC stage now and I’ve been conscious of it and doing my best to redirect our conversation and earlier today I when I was pulling the rest of our filing, I mentioned how one of our coordinators just dropped 2017 on top of 2016, and how I wanted to organize 2017 for her on her desk and we’d see how long it would last and he talked over me and said something along the lines of, “You should organize it now, so it doesn’t pile up like that again,” and afterwards I was like, what? Did you not hear what I said? Pretty sure he doesn’t listen and remember instructions/game plans not only when I talk but also when our office manager talks because he’s mentioned before how she goes “too fast” when she’s giving instructions and I know he doesn’t take notes even though I’ve mentioned it would be a good idea (our work is very fiddly and needs awesome attention to detail and it is always a good idea to have notes to refer to because there are so many little pieces and things that can go wrong) and ohhhhhh I just need some sympathy. Thank you for reading this huge comment. Happy Friday!

    1. Hallway Feline*

      I’m sorry to hear that! It sounds like you’ve gotten the filing more on track than the previous year, which is awesome. I hope things get better! Maybe talk to your manager just as a heads up gestureabout his multiple comments?

      1. Effie*

        Thanks! It feels so petty to bring it to his supervisor (I have a different one). The office manager is the one who is overseeing the filing overall and I did let her know and she said to let her know if it bothered me more and she’d talk to him and tell him to cut it out. I guess I just don’t want him to know that I’m talking about him behind his back :/ because she’s not officially a supervisor either (although she has no qualms about shutting people down so the work gets done). She’s also very direct and will not sugarcoat it at all. Thank you for reminding me that I can pull out the nuclear option if needed!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Massive amounts of sympathy from me to you! Your guy sounds similar to my coworker. Eventually I reached BEC and sent a detailed email to our manager with examples of the times Jane skipped training, said inappropriate things, complained endlessly, etc. I discussed how these things were contributing toward a negative atmosphere in the office, making myself and others uncomfortable, and how Jane didn’t appear ready to work in the field. I would have preferred to discuss with my boss in person, but she works offsite and we rarely see her.

      You definitely need to talk to YOUR boss about this guy. It’s tempting, but you can’t frame the conversation as “Fergus is really really annoying.” You need to talk about how Fergus’s mistakes/attitude are affecting you, your coworkers, and the work you’re paid to do. You should also let your boss know that you’ve tried to guide him several times (give examples) and you aren’t sure what else to do.

      At this point, your boss *should* take the reins and work with Fergus. My boss apparently had a very long one-on-one with Jane and some (but not all) of her issues have been resolved. A lot of it is due to her personality, which obviously won’t change dramatically. I imagine Fergus is the same way, but he does need to have a “Come to Jesus” talk with management.

      I hope this helps!

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        I see that you and Fergus have different bosses. I still think you should alert his manager.

        1. Effie*

          Thanks Lemon Zinger! It sounds like really good advice. I guess I’m just afraid that I’ll get a response along the lines that I’m making a mountain out of a molehill because…it’s filing. Except when you do filing wrong, then you can’t find stuff for audits. Which happen quite frequently in our industry.

          Seriously, it’s filing. You shouldn’t need someone to sit by you to make sure everything’s right…

          I should probably focus on the audits. I guess another thing I’m afraid of is that they’ll tell me I’m the only one available to check on him/the filing, at which point I’d just rather do the filing myself because spot-checking him and making him redo his wrong filing will just increase my workload (I’ve already been redoing the wrong filing when I catch it instead of asking him to fix it. It’s like he has one mistake for every 30-50 documents. He is way faster at filing than I am and I think part of it is carelessness)

          1. Observer*

            Yes, focus on the audits, and how it’s not practical to redo his work AND get your work done. And, yo need to talk to YOUR manager first. Whether she talks to Fergus’ boss, or tells you to talk to her, she needs to be in the loop.

        2. Effie*

          Also other than the filing, I really don’t interact with the other side of the office, and I’ve spoken to his supervisor twice before (other than saying “Hi”).

  152. Delphine*

    In an interview I did recently, I was asked about my experience with, say, chocolate teapot-making. Only a few people know this, but last year, I had a brief but intensive side business making chocolate teapots for a pole-dancing studio and professional pole-dancers/instructors. I mentioned that experience in my interview.

    I do have /other/ teapot-making experience, which we talked about elsewhere in the interview, but for that question, they asked about chocolate teapots specifically, and this *did* apply… was it stupid of me to bring this up? Keep in mind that this was not an interview for a church, conservative think tank, etc. But was it a bad idea?

    1. Effie*

      I think you’re fine! I’ve worked for a couple different pole-dance studios (still currently a part-time gig) and I decided two years ago that I wasn’t going to hide it anymore and I’ve since then brought it up organically in work (yes, at the interview stage if it came up) and it hasn’t impacted me negatively that I’ve known. I’ve been very matter-of-fact and while sometimes people are surprised they’ve taken my conversational cue (including all the interviewers, managers, and execs I’ve dealt with). Before, when I acted like it was a huge secret, that’s when I got the more over-the-top reactions like “NO WAY!!!” Granted, I’ve been in liberal areas (ie NYC, SF, etc) so that is my perspective, especially since they were asking for chocolate teapots specifically.

    2. Emi.*

      I don’t think it would matter too much. But could you just say “dance studio” in future, if it worries you?

  153. Lynxa*

    I got laid off yesterday, y’all :( They’re closing this branch, so they laid off about 30% of the office while they start to wind down. At least I got 60 days notice, but the job market here is DIRE.

    Time to start going through the archives for resume and cover letter advice.

    2. Drew*

      That sucks and I’m really sorry. I was laid off a few years ago under similar circumstances (although I at least got to stay until the end) and it was a weird time, knowing my job had a fixed end date and wondering what to do next.

      The good news is that you don’t have to hide your job hunt from your bosses and that if you get a great offer, you don’t have to agonize over how to break it to them. It’s a little thing but it’s pretty amazing.

      Are they giving you any sort of severance?

      1. Lynxa*

        The 60 days is in lieu of the legally mandated severance. This is a pretty “bare minimum” sort of place. The higher-ups had a meeting where they discussed that we wouldn’t even have gotten notice if it wasn’t required. (My office is really chill, but the main office is a full on Game of Thrones Macchiavellian nightmare)

  154. Eric*

    Hi! I’d like to know how to work with recruiters better.

    I’m a programmer, in a big city for the field, and I have some in demand skills that I’ve given presentations for. So I hear from recruiters A LOT.

    I’m happy with my current job and don’t really have time to interview or anything. So I usually send out an email back like “Hi X, I’m not looking for a new job right now. Let’s have a talk when I am. I’ll reach out then. Thanks and good luck!”

    This works sometimes, but since the technology field is so crazy right now, some recruiters will still want to set up a phone call to “set up a profile” or “share the color of the market”.

    I say no to that (“I really am not looking right now, so let’s wait until I am and I can speak intelligently about what I am looking for in my next job”) but a lot of the time that prompts a phone call or the other guy trying to reset with another “Hi Eric, I’m recruiting for X company, do you have time for a phone call this week?”

    It’s really weird and kind of annoying when someone completely ignores me saying “I’m not interested.” Am I being weird? Is there something else I should be saying?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      No, you’re not weird. At least in the Bay Area recruiters are often as pushy as telemarketers (if not more so) as they often work on a commission basis. My partner is in IT and has gotten calls at 7 AM, 5 calls in rapid succession from the same recruiter, recruiters trying to strong arm him into into interviewing for obvious bad fits…I get an earful nearly daily about it. Pushy, undertrained, and annoying seems to be the recruiter status quo and the ones who actually respect his wishes and time are the exception.

      1. Eric*

        I’m in New York, so it’s not as weird of a situation, but faint praise, right?

        I’m just trying to be more cordial to people, even when they’re in the wrong. I’ve sometimes had a hard time doing that with some of the stuff the worse recruiters do, like submitting me for things I’ve expressly said I won’t take, in email to remove ambiguity, and then blowing my phone up when I said I can’t take that interview, and it would be dishonest and a waste of time because I’m 100% certain I wouldn’t take the job if offered. I don’t curse or raise my voice, but I’ve definitely had a few exchanges where the other person would be justified to say “wow, Eric’s an ass.”

    2. Dzhymm, BfD*

      No, that’s just the nature of the beast. There are tons of bottom-feeding recruiters out there who vacuum up as many resumes as they can and throw them at anything to see what might stick. I’m on the East Coast and was looking for permanent work. If I had a nickel for every no-name recruiter who sent me leads for 3-month contracts in Santa Barbara I wouldn’t have to bother with any job search. I either ignore them, or politely decline. I have yet to connect with one that I just couldn’t scrape off my shoe no matter how hard I tried. If I did, though, and if the initial polite decline was met with more pressure I’d turn around and say “That approach does NOT work with me! We either do this on MY timetable or not at all!”.

      1. Eric*

        There’s one company that’s been doing this for about a year. They’re not a recruiting agency, but IIRC they bill themselves as a “job market” and advertise really aggressively on LinkedIn and Twitter.

        I’ve been getting 2-3 emails a week from them, on average, each with a different cutesy title but the same message. For the first couple of weeks I was sending off a “Hi X, I’m not interested, but good luck to you.” in reply, but they seemed to totally ignore that. So I switched to “thank you for contacting me, but I am absolutely not interested.” and then clicking the unsubscribe link. Still kept spamming me.

        Then I finally stopped doing anything but clicking unsubscribe, and of course I’m still getting their emails. Tech is ridiculous.

    3. Chaordic One*

      You’re not weird and it really isn’t possible to work with recruiters better. Be polite but firm.

  155. Hallway Feline*

    So I’m a little late to the party today because I’m trying to hire some new people this week (long story that is very AAM worthy, I assure you!), but I wanted ot just vent and see how normal this behavior was… And how to handle it next time (because I know there will be a next time, unfortunately)!

    Recently we had our annual Safety Seminar/Summit for all employees. We fly everyone to HQ and conduct presentations on all relevant topics while everyone is in the office. I asked (begged) to do a topic involving interpersonal communication/communication styles/understanding other employees using True Colors as my jumping off point. (off-topic, let me know what you are! I’m Gold-Green.) My boss approved it and I sent her all the information so she would know what was going into the powerpoint presentation that the graphic designer was putting together for us (I offered to do it to keep the presentation in-house, but that was vetoed. Red flag #1).

    So my presentation was supposed to be on Day 2 of the seminar, but due to weirdness of weather causing the East Coast folks to get in late, I was moved to Day 1. A little annoying, but I could deal with it if my slides were in the Day 2 powerpoint. They weren’t. (Red flag #2) I could wing it, I had all the handouts with me already, let’s do this, I told myself. And it went over really well! All the employees took the test (some reluctantly), but got into it while talking in their small teams (Orange, Blue, Green, or Gold).

    After the small group discussions I planned on having them reconvene as a larger group and discuss all the same points and compare their answers. However, my boss came in and took over. My boss hadn’t read any of my information (Red Flag #3; she approved it without reading it, which I guess could be taken as a good thing that she trusted me?), and talked the entire time as if she knew it. I will add that 95% she said was wrong, which she would have known had she glanced at my materials. I’m more upset that she talked over me (Red Flag #4) and then kept on talking until she ran my time out and into the next presentation.

    If she had been on my same level, I would have stopped her from interrupting me or clarified what was wrong. But she is my boss (Director), and it was in front of the whole company, so I didn’t know what to do. On one hand, this is so typical of her that I should just let it go. But on the other hand, she embarrassed me in front of my peers and direct reports, and took all my credibility on the subject away. I know I need to emotionally let go of the situation-being emotionally charged will not fix it- but it’s hard to not be upset when I lost credibility and standing as a Manager during this incident. This Director is also disliked by a lot of my direct reports, so they understood the situation just from watching the 45 minute interaction, but I still came off as weak in standing.

    So how do I address this in the future? What can I say to my Director when she does this again?

    TL;DR: My Director talked over/interrupted me at a national conference, spoke nothing but incorrect information about a topic she knew nothing about, and I need to know how to handle it in the future.

    1. fposte*

      I think you probably didn’t lose as much credibility as you fear you did; most people are familiar with the look of somebody being steamrollered by their boss, and they really don’t hold it against the employee.

      I wouldn’t wait until it happens again to talk to her. I’d do it next week, and say, “Could we talk about my presentation at the seminar? I was really surprised when you took over the conclusion for me. Did you have concerns about the way I was leading things that I could rectify in future?” (Be prepared to listen in case she does–I’ve known people who really weren’t doing well in a presentation and didn’t realize it.) Ultimately, you can’t just say “Geez, way to wreck my presentation,” but you may be able to say something like “It would mean a lot to me to be able to run a presentation from start to finish–would we be able to pin that down if an opportunity comes up in the future?”

      1. Hallway Feline*

        My plan is to talk to her next week with HR present (my Director is reactive so I want it on record no matter what way it goes, not that I want anything necessarily done about it discipline-wise).

        Thank you for the wording! I was really struggling to come up with something (and we had a full-day training on interoffice communication too!).

    2. tigerStripes*

      Most people probably know the director well enough to know what was going on. Your credibility with them is probably fine. They were probably thinking “I wish the director would be quiet and let the person who knows this stuff do the talking.”

    3. Observer*

      Why did you lose credibility?*You* didn’t say anything wrong, and even the people who don’t know her, have to understand that you couldn’t stop her. Also, if you gave out the handouts with the *correct* information, people know that YOU would not have said what she did.

      If anyone lost credibility, it’s your boss.

  156. Anxa*

    I think I might have a job offer coming (or received a cryptic offer). I was emailed a form letter asking for my W4/I9/direct deposit forms, etc after a background check was complete following an interview on Monday (which was not my best, but that’s a separate post).

    I had turned down a retail position for Christmas (some may remember that I was offered a job a month after my application, had limited transportation at that point because my bf was taking his car to visit family, and had a family situation that pressed me into wanting to go home), only to rerun some numbers for our budget and realize I probably shouldn’t have done that. So I need a job pretty fast.

    That said, I’m kind of disappointed in myself. I know I don’t have a strong resume, and I’ve already probably let too much time go between my last internship and starting a job in that field (was complicated by knowing I was probably moving out of state, but not knowing where to), but I can’t help but be torn about the job.

    It’s another part-time position with far too much time off (all unpaid, of course). It’s better than nothing, though. I’m getting older, and I’d much rather have been spending my 20s and early 30s doing full-time work so that I could have that under my belt and consider working part-time if I ever decided to have kids. I feel like I’m using up my retirement period and part-time period before I even start (not that everyone gets to do those things). I feel like I’m more afraid I’ll finally start a real career just in time to interrupt it than I am of never starting one at all.

    Anyone else feel a touch of sadness when they get a job they were previously excited about and needed because they start thinking too much about the big picture? I hope this doesn’t affect my work if I am in fact hired!

    1. Anxa*

      Added:

      I’m also wondering if I short-changed myself. The past 8 years or so I have fought pretty hard and sludged through years of rejections for even part-time, low-bar-of-entry jobs. Since moving here, I have applied to just a few jobs, and had a pretty good response rate. I’m wondering if I have sold myself short and should have been more aggressive in applying for what I would have thought were stretch positions.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s pretty normal to think about greener grasses. Just put those thoughts to one side when you are at work though. Remember something that we actually have is better than something dreamed up in our imaginations. There will always be a better job over there somewhere no matter where we land in the work world.

  157. Camellia*

    Don’t have any advice for your situation, but I am a solid Green; I think I had one Gold, but everything else was Green!

    1. Hallway Feline*

      My Orange and Blue are abysmal, which is hilarious considering I was an RA throughout all of college!

  158. FireFox*

    Last summer I got to choose between two jobs. I had the chance to have my contract renewed at the company I had been working for since 2 years with great colleagues but a very long commute. I had also gotten a bit ‘bored with my tasks and found the them quite repetitive and no longer challenging. I also had the chance to change jobs and work for a company very close to home (literally 5 minutes away) and with a job content that seemed more challenging to me. The first job was more a pure ‘administrative’ HR role, the second one was more like an HR Generalist. It seemed like a good career decision so I decided to go for this new role.

    In this new role, I work fulltime but I actually combine 2 part-time HR jobs in two different departments, one being for the general HR department and the other being for a sort of ‘subsidiary’ if you will (but on the same site). Both jobs could become fulltime over time. However, I really don’t like working in the HR department because of the bad atmosphere: all of the colleagues are complaining about each other (behind each other’s back) and I take these bad vibes with me when I go home. The two team leads don’t get along (and it’s not subtle) and I work for both of them so I constantly feel like I’m ‘between two fires’. They both want me to complete certain tasks for them (outside of my daily tasks) and I feel it is getting a bit too much for a part-time job. I am always looking forward to the time I work for the other department, where I have only one team lead, the atmosphere is good (or at least better), I get more space and time to learn and develop my skills and have more flexibility.

    At the end of January they are going to decide if my contract will be renewed and whether both jobs will still be part time, so I assume a conversation and evaluation of my job and my performance will follow any time soon (with one of the 2 team leads of the general HR department). If they keep combining these two part-time jobs into one, I am not sure if I want to renew my contract. I know I might be idealising my old job and I’ve only been into this new role for a couple of months, but I am already keeping my eye out for other job opportunities because I really feel unhappy at work for at least half of the time. I am still hoping for the role at the subsidiary to become fulltime and that I might stay there.

    I really don’t know how to approach this situation properly. Should I talk about all of this in the evaluation interview? Can I express my preferences in this situation or is that not my place? How could I bring this up in the conversation? The general HR department’s decision will probably be final and I don’t want to screw things up…

  159. Charlie Q*

    How important is a blazer, really?

    I’m meeting someone about a job next week (it’s not been posted but I was referred by a friend), and it’s not a formal interview, just an overview of the job and a chance to meet. So I’m assuming that slacks and a nice blouse or button up will do here?

    What about in more standard interviews? Will slacks and a nice top do me, or do I really need a blazer?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I can’t imagine going to an interview in anything other than a suit, but that’s the Esq. for you. I guess it all depends on your field. That said, if you’re just meeting for coffee to chat about a potential future opportunity, I would dress down a bit – what you suggest seems fine.

  160. PPJ*

    I quit a previous job due to assault. I did not file charges. I am visibly uncomfortable/upset when asked why I left this job in an interview. I was there for 3 years, so I can’t leave it off my resume.

    How should I handle it? There is substantial overlap in the teapot industry, so my interviewer is often either professionally acquainted with, or has worked closely with, the person who assaulted me. What do I say when they ask if they can contact this person for a reference? If I worked for Teapots, Inc. in the City, they know I must have worked with this person, so I can’t act like we never worked together.

    Teapots, Inc. tells reference checkers that former employees never worked there at all, so this is not a theoretical question.

    This has happened in multiple interviews, and I always get thrown when asked about this particular job. I had thought I would be able to handle it after 4 years, but it’s still causing issues in interviews. My contract is up in 6 months, so I’ll be interviewing again soon. I want to be able to move past this in an interview without seeming dramatic or appearing distraught when asked about the position.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      That sounds awful – I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. This sounds like the time for lots and lots of practice. Find friends you trust who know about the situation and do mock interviews with them. Assume that it’s going to come up and figure out your answers in advance, then practice until you’re bored to death of them. In a close industry, figure out what kind of white lies you can get away with and feel comfortable with so you don’t have to go into much detail, and practice polite ways to close off further inquiry if possible. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to deal with, but I’ve got to think practice could help. Good luck!

    2. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      I’m sorry you are going through this.

      Is there a reason not to factually state: “I left that position after being physically assaulted.”

      “Oh my gosh what happened?”

      “I would rather not get into details, I hope you understand. Feel free to contact X or Y people for reference to see that I left on good terms and that my work was well received” etc.

      I’m not sure why they would ask to contact your assaultor as a reference unless that person was a direct manager, in which case I would state.

      “I was physically assaulted by my manager at the time and decided to leave the company after that.” I’ve listed alternative references and hope you understand why I would rather not discuss it further.”

      2. PPJ*

        The conversation sounds like this:

        “I see you worked at Teapots, Inc. Did you work with Pat? How did you like that? What would Pat say about your work? How would you feel about us contacting Pat about your work?”

        Everybody knows about Pat and Pat’s behavior. If I say I was assaulted, they will assume it was Pat anyway. I guess that’s probably relevant information.

        My then manager had promised to “protect” me from Pat, that Pat would behave and there would be no issues, because Pat was to treat me well or else. Up until then, I had enjoyed working there, despite the dysfunction, because I liked the work and my manager.

        1. tigerStripes*

          Since people know what Pat is like, will that help? Sounds like they wouldn’t be surprised by what happened and won’t think that you’re exaggerating, which is one thing I’d be worried about when talking about this in an interview.

          If management kept Pat on, they’ve got some serious issues. Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

          Good luck!

        2. Observer*

          They actually kept Pat on? Are these people nuts? Also, telling people that former employees never worked there sounds like a recipe for a law suit. But, again, people must know by now that they lie. (Just make sure you have your w2’s)

          If you could practice answering “Well, Pat assaulted me, so I doubt you’ll get much useful information from him. But, you can talk to x, u and z” that should do the trick, I would think. Tigerstripes is right that if Pat is so well known for his behavior, they would tend to believe you.

    3. azvlr*

      I’m so sorry you are going through this!
      If at all possible, can you still press charges? This may help bring about some closure for you, bring the person who assaulted you to justice, and also allow you to speak more frankly in interviews. I get that it may not be an option for any number of reasons. Also, are you able to seek counseling?
      In the meantime, when it comes up in an interview, be as generic as possible. Health reasons and all that. If pressed you could blame the work environment being very stressful and your health suffered. If pressed further, you could speak to decisions made that impacted your health and you needed to GTFO. People, especially your boss, count as part of the work environment. You also don’t need to go into detail that the decision in question was your boss’s decision to assault you. And mental health is part of health.
      Find a script that works and rehearse it with a trusted friend.
      jedi hugs and the best of luck

  161. Susan*

    I’m a contractor that has been at my current company since Nov. 2015.

    We recently moved to a new building, and ever since, I have found it really hard to get to work. We work in a downtown area without any free parking, and since I’m a contractor, I wasn’t given a parking pass. There is a bus I can take into work, but my neighborhood didn’t “buy into” the neighborhood bus pass (basically if enough households pay for a bus pass, we can get a reduced price), therefore I’d have to pay over $1k for an annual pass. Is it reasonable of me to ask my company to expense this even though I’m a contractor? I’m finding myself working from home a lot because I’m not really sure how to get into the office (my option is to buy the bus pass, which I literally don’t have enough money in my bank account for right now, or to park about 20 minutes away, but it has been snowing a lot so I can do that but it is unpleasant). Our office is one where you *can* work from home, but it’s kind of taboo if you do it more often than you are there.

    1. H.C.*

      Typically the cost of the usual home-office commute isn’t expense-able. However, I would approach your boss and/or HR with a more open ended question — the issue that the workspace move has made your commute significantly more costly and time-consuming, and if there’s anything they can do to address that. This could mean making an exception for their garage & giving you a parking pass, subsidizing your bus pass and/or giving you a raise to make up for the extra expense. You can bring up all of these options after presenting your issue, which shows them that you’ve given some thought to it and several options for them to remedy it — of course, also be prepared for them to say “tough luck.”

  162. Kathy*

    Quick question: given the the option is it better to be fired (therefore be eligible for unemployment) or to resign and not get any unemployment benefits?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      If you are fired for cause most states won’t allow unemployment benefits either. Assuming you mean being laid off through no fault of your own, I guess it depends on how badly you need the benefits versus how unbearable the job is?

      1. De Minimis*

        In many cases you can be fired and still receive benefits, depending on the reason. If you’re just “not a fit” or fired for just not being good at the job, you can often receive benefits. The best case scenario would be to find another job and resign. But getting fired and receiving benefits is preferable to just quitting without anything lined up.

        I don’t think benefits last for all that long these days, though.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I believe in my state you have to wait a couple weeks if you were fired then you can get benefits.
      Years ago,I had a situation where I was fired from the worst employer in the area. (my nightmare job) I went down to unemployment and asked if I could apply. They pushed my application through because they knew this employer was so horrible. People would point their cars at pedestrian coworkers and step on the gas. You could not even get to your car safely.
      This could be something that only happens in a more rural area or it could be a norm. I have no idea.

  163. Bad Candidate*

    I know it’s late in the day, so maybe no one will read this. I finally snapped this week. Last week I was off on Monday due to the holiday and I called in sick on Wednesday due to feeling ill from some dental work. While I was out a coworker was asked to help me with some of my work. Honestly, I wish she wouldn’t. She doesn’t read instructions right and often does things to my client files incorrectly which result in me spending a lot of time fixing them. And to be clear, it’s not that I’m out a lot, sometime she gets caught up with her own work and helps out others unasked. Plus I was out on FMLA this summer and she helped out then too. The mistakes this week ranged from something she flat out didn’t do, to minor things that weren’t too hard to fix, to the kicker, one huge file she royally messed up that took me more than half a day to fix. That’s what sent me over the edge. I sent an email to my boss about it. I was calm and not accusatory at all. I made it clear that I understood that people make mistakes and we’re all human, but that this was beyond simple mistakes and had gone straight into she’s flat out not doing her job correctly. What really ticks me off is that she’s been promoted above me, though I’ve been there longer. So that’s a feel good, knowing that incompetent morons can get ahead and that knowing how to do your job and do it correctly aren’t actual requirements for promotions. So, I don’t know. Was I right to bring it up? I asked that she not be assigned to help me going forward. Should I have just kept quiet? Boss hasn’t said anything to me about it and after I sent the email I found out that it was coworker’s last day before maternity leave.

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      From where I’m sitting, yes, you were right to bring it up, although if this was your first time notifying your supervisor about the problem, I probably would’ve said this in person rather than in email, and brought with me documented other prior instances of mess-ups. Now that it’s done, though, I’d probably leave it alone. If your boss hasn’t already arranged this, I would take the initiative and schedule an appt to talk about taking on some of *her* duties while she’s out on leave (6 weeks? 3 months? longer?). You could even use this occasion to ask about what you need to do to qualify for promotion yourself. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. Any way you can password protect at least *some* of your files to prevent her messing with them?

      1. Bad Candidate*

        I considered bringing it up in person, but I thought it might get me fired up again. Her files have already been reassigned. I can’t pw protect mine, other people need access and I get a new file every week. As for a promotion, I don’t want one, I want out of the company entirely.

  164. AnotherAlison*

    I am so happy to come here and report that a coworker who has been a thorn in my side since April (when he was hired) quit today. What a great day!

  165. discarvard*

    I finally applied for that internship. Thanks to Alison and everyone else who offered their advice! My boss confirmed that I can reduce my hours if I get the internship, but apparently it is pretty competitive, so who knows.

  166. Alston*

    I put in my two weeks notice today! I wasn’t going to do it till next week, but found out my boss was going to be gone next week, so I ovaried up and did it! I’ve been doing double time going to school+working for the past year and a half and now I will just be in school! I’ll have time to do extra projects and learn more stuff in depth. It’s awesome. And scary as hell. I’ve been at this job for 6+ years (first post college job), and AHHHH. So much adrenaline.

  167. Leslie Knope*

    Does anyone have wildly successful workflow tracking suggestions? I’m an Excel nut (seriously. i’ve dreamt about spreadsheets and formulas folks) but I totally know there are way more intuitive processes/systems.

    I’m in a new role where I basically will support/learn from/be mentored by 7+ individuals, or “lemmings” (all with their own different set of clients), and am also a bottleneck for passing on tasks to 4+ underlings or “hedgehogs” that are offsite. In an ideal world I will also mentor the hedgehogs and have leeway in deciding what tasks to pass on to them.

    I’m supposed to grow up and be a lemming, so there’s also a lot of personal development involved and it’s up to me to make sure I get meaningful experiences that actually help me become a lemming.

    All rodent references aside, I’m mildly stressed out. I’ve tried a few different ways of keeping track of all the tasks, my personal objectives, strengths/weaknesses of the lemmings and hedgehogs.

    Does anyone have advice for managing a multitude of tasks/deadlines/people?

  168. SeekingBetter*

    Send a thank-you note after an interview? Or not to? I usually do if it’s an in-person interview. Thoughts?

    1. Chaordic One*

      If the interview went well and it’s a job that you’re interested in or if the people were especially nice to you, send them a thank-you email. If you don’t have an email address then send them a thank-you note.

      If it was an interview for a job that you wouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole, then don’t bother.

  169. Newbie Freelancer*

    This is probably a freelancing 101 question. What do I do with a client who won’t respond to me regarding payment?

    My contact is the marketing person for an organization I have been involved with in the past, although never worked for. She recruited me to write an article for them back in October. We agreed on payment and timeframe. I wrote it and sent her a draft ahead of deadline. She was happy with it and asked for some edits, which I did. I sent her an invoice, which went unacknowledged. Several days later, I sent her an email about a second article that she’d mentioned, and she responded promptly. Fast forward another month and as far as I know, the article hasn’t been published, which is fine, I know it might be a while. But I emailed her to ask if she needed anything else from me in order to process the payment, and: crickets.

    I should have gotten paperwork and a contract up front, but since I have an existing relationship with the organization and they’re not some fly-by-night, I didn’t worry about it. So now what? Do I just keep pestering her? I’m not sure what else to do.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Call her. It’s too easy for her to avoid emails or forget to answer them. Call her and say that the payment is overdue and when will she be mailing it out.

  170. Phyllis B*

    I mentioned this already today, but wanted to put this in open thread because I told y’all about this last year (my daughter going to rehab.) I am proud to announce that my daughter, a former meth addict, will achieve her one year anniversary of sobriety on Jan. 16. She is about to become a sponsor and lead meetings at one of the local treatment centers.

    1. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      This is good news. Much happiness to you and your daughter. May she reach many hearts and change many minds as a sponsor.

  171. onnellinen*

    Thank you to folks last week who reassured me that I was not the first (nor the last, I’m sure) to have a company laptop stolen. I was still feeling really freaked out about the break-in, and really appreciated the responses.

    My company responded very quickly to get my mobile (also stolen!) wiped and disconnected, and a new laptop. My colleagues have been more concerned about the break-in than anything else. I still feel a bit anxious about the whole experience, but I was also worried about how my employer would react, and I feel like a weight has been lifted.

    1. Anono-me*

      I am glad your company is being supportive.

      Please consider asking your insurance company or police department if they will do a safety inspection and make recommendations to increase your security.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You can also ask the police to do random patrols of your neighborhood.

        I am glad that you were not physically injured.

  172. Emac*

    How do I get management experience, when every entry level manager job I see requires management experience?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      What I recommend to people who ask this is volunteer work. I know that’s not a “quick win.” People who know more about how volunteering works should weigh in here, in case I am completely off base.

      If I were in your shoes, I would be approaching it this way: If I wasn’t already involved with a volunteer agency, I figure I am going to have to enter on the ground floor someplace and prove myself.

      I’d have to do some homework before I walked in: determine what kind of volunteer work appeals to me (local area? national? international non-governmental aid? agriculture? skills training? medical? juvenile justice/advocacy?), list what skills I bring (I would conduct a self-inventory, and not discount those skills I’m good at, but don’t necessarily like to do, b/c that could be the very thing that could make me more valuable to a Volunteer Coordinator), and what skills I want to develop more fully (e.g., maybe I’m a little weak at customer service, so would like to develop that side) or new ones I’d like to learn (e.g., how to lay out and use a Gantt chart to track accomplishments during a long-term project).

      After I’ve figured this out, then I’d go into the research phase, starting online, and seeing what was available in my local area that matched my interests. I’d cold-call local-area Volunteer Coordinators to find out whether they’re looking for volunteers at this time, and for what duties/areas. Then, if any opportunities sounded interesting enough, I’d schedule informational interviews so I could get a look at the activity sites and people involved.

      After picking an agency, and volunteering some place for a few months, and if I’ve done solid work and been dependable, I might ask about taking on more responsibilities. It is at that point, and if I had a good relationship with my volunteer coordinator, that I would start asking for future assignments that skewed toward developing the kind of managerial experience I’m seeking.

      With perseverance over time, you can probably collect enough experiences with the right depth and breadth that shows you have a very basic familiarity with how to manage people and projects. Even if you don’t get selected for a managerial position outright, the company might still hire you with the idea of transitioning you to a managerial role in the future.

      If you just don’t have this kind of time, then I’d suggest going through your resume to tease out the managerial-type skills you’ve used in all your jobs, and feature them prominently at the top of every one of your resume’s job entries.

      You might want to look at these previous AAM posts for additional advice:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/why-am-i-not-getting-promoted-into-a-management-job.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/how-to-apply-for-a-job-youre-not-fully-qualified-for.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/05/does-supervising-students-count-as-real-management-experience.html

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      What I recommend to people who ask this is volunteer work. I know that’s not a “quick win.” People who know more about how volunteering works should weigh in here, in case I am completely off base.

      If I were in your shoes, I would be approaching it this way: If I wasn’t already involved with a volunteer agency, I figure I am going to have to enter on the ground floor someplace and prove myself.

      I’d have to do some homework before I walked in: determine what kind of volunteer work appeals to me (local area? national? international non-governmental aid? agriculture? skills training? medical? juvenile justice/advocacy?), list what skills I bring (I would conduct a self-inventory, and not discount those skills I’m good at, but don’t necessarily like to do, b/c that could be the very thing that could make me more valuable to a Volunteer Coordinator), and what skills I want to develop more fully (e.g., maybe I’m a little weak at customer service, so would like to develop that side) or new ones I’d like to learn (e.g., how to lay out and use a Gantt chart to track accomplishments during a long-term project).

      After I’ve figured this out, then I’d go into the research phase, starting online, and seeing what was available in my local area that matched my interests. I’d cold-call local-area Volunteer Coordinators to find out whether they’re looking for volunteers at this time, and for what duties/areas. Then, if any opportunities sounded interesting enough, I’d schedule informational interviews so I could get a look at the activity sites and people involved.

      After picking an agency, and volunteering some place for a few months, and if I’ve done solid work and been dependable, I might ask about taking on more responsibilities. It is at that point, and if I had a good relationship with my volunteer coordinator, that I would start asking for future assignments that skewed toward developing the kind of managerial experience I’m seeking.

      With perseverance over time, you can probably collect enough experiences with the right depth and breadth that shows you have a very basic familiarity with how to manage people and projects. Even if you don’t get selected for a managerial position outright, the company might still hire you with the idea of transitioning you to a managerial role in the future.

      If you just don’t have this kind of time, then I’d suggest going through your resume to tease out the managerial-type skills you’ve used in all your jobs, and feature them prominently at the top of every one of your resume job entries.

      You might also look at the previous AAM posts for more advice:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/why-am-i-not-getting-promoted-into-a-management-job.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/05/does-supervising-students-count-as-real-management-experience.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/how-to-apply-for-a-job-youre-not-fully-qualified-for.html

  173. Chagrined Again*

    After being unemployed for almost a year, last fall I was referred to a local nonprofit that, working with a federally funded job-training program, offered to take me on as a trainee. I first met with the people at the nonprofit. They really seemed to like me, I liked the nonprofit and I was very excited about the program. This was followed by a visit with the county rep for the federal program that provided the funding. She helped me fill out all the applications and all of the paperwork such as the W-2 form and I-9 form. I was told that it was going to be a formality, but then on November 9th, I received a call from the county rep saying there had been a “freeze” on the program and to be patient. She also said in passing that there were 27 applicants from our state waiting to be processed and that they were supposedly to be given priority.

    People from the nonprofit (which is different from the federal training program) contacted me several times to see what the status of my approval was, but in December I was busy with the holidays and I figured the feds would get back to me and that I would probably start in January. I called the county program rep and kept getting a recording that the number had been disconnected. Then I called the state office several times and was told that they had been having phone problems and told to call the county office back later. After a couple of days of this I called the state office again and this time I was transferred to voice mail where I left a message about trying to get in touch with the county office and asking for a current phone number, but no one got back to me.

    This week I sent an email to the national headquarters and finally got a response, a phone call from the head of the state agency who says that the county where I live was one of 3 in the state where the federal program has decided to stop funding new trainees. The program in these 3 counties was turned over to the state. However, the state is currently suffering a recession and cutting all sorts of worthwhile programs, so it’s pretty unlikely that they will step up to fill the gap.

    I’m just so bummed about it. I was so looking forward to picking up some new job skills and a small paycheck while getting them. At one point I turned down an interview for an admittedly crappy part-time job because I was waiting to start the training program. I did keep up my job search while I was waiting for the training program to start, just in case something really excellent came along, but nothing ever did. If I’d known how things were going to turn out I probably would have accepted the crappy part-time job, or at least upped my jobsearch game.

    The guy from the state office said he didn’t even know that there were people like myself who were waiting to hear back about being accepted into the program until the national headquarters forwarded my email to him. He said it wasn’t his job to keep people informed and he didn’t know whose job it was. I don’t really blame the county rep because she’s just a trainee herself receiving a low training wage that is only a bit above the federal minimum and working part-time. I also learned that the county office was closed on December 1 and that the phone for it really was disconnected. I can’t believe that no one from the office made any effort to contact me and keep me informed about my application and the program status.

    When I met with the county rep back in October she said that all of the time we spent doing paperwork and the time that I spent driving to and from the county office (about 4 hours) would should be recorded on my first time sheet and would count as hours worked. I’m tempted to send an email to the national headquarters complaining about the program’s failure to keep me updated, but I probably won’t. It really does seem to be an awful way to treat people. I wonder if I should send them an email asking to be compensated for the 4 hours I spent driving to the county office and filling out paperwork. I suppose all they could say would be no.

    1. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      I agree that this is an awful way to treat people!

      Since this was a federally funded program, can you seek help from the constituent services office of your senator or Congressional representative? It might be that the program would pay more attention to a request from the office of an Elected Official than a request from a plain old citizen. It might also be that Elected Officials would not be pleased to see that federal dollars were being spent in a way that included treating people so badly.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        This is a fantastic idea! Please do consider calling your senator’s or Congressional rep’s state office HQ to speak to someone in constituent services; if it’s not going to be too much trouble for you, drive there to speak to an aide in person, who will take down your information. Bring with you copies of *all* your documents (the original paperwork, email printouts, dates of phone calls and to whom you made them: from the county rep, up to and including that Mr. Lazybutt Not-My-Job state rep, etc.) Before you go in, think about what you want in return, as in, what do you want them to do with the information you are giving them? Obviously, you want to alert them to poor-performing government employees who are not behaving accountably to local-area taxpayers. But you might also want to consider asking your senator/rep to transfer you from your county’s now-unfunded program to another nearby county’s funded one, and use the senator’s/rep’s throw-weight to put you in *that* county’s next-scheduled training program (regardless of whether it’s “full” b/c, hey, you’ve been waiting a pretty long time here through no fault of your own), or at the top of that county’s waiting list. Also, be sure to ask, at the end of your interview, “what happens next?” The aide you speak to should be willing to give you a time frame for when this information will be presented to the senator/house rep (some reps physically return to their home offices once a week, some once a month, some less frequently, some Skype, some have conference calls w/staff daily, it just depends on the senator/house rep’s personality and schedule). After you hear that, please don’t be shy about asking for the aide’s name and phone number, so that you can follow up to learn what the senator/rep plans to do, especially if someone forgets to call you. (And considering what you’ve been through, the aide shouldn’t be surprised by this request.) Don’t give up, because there’s someone in government who should at least be able to get answers and some accountability for you. Best of luck!

  174. Me*

    Grrr. Major job-hunty disappointment this week.

    I found a tech writing job I could totally do, for a company that is based in City, Cold ST but has an office in Closer City, My ST. The listing said City, Cold ST/Closer City, My ST and it looked like Closer City was where the job is. So I applied.

    This week a recruiter from the company emailed me and said the job was in City, Cold ST and asked if I was open for relocation. I literally had a meltdown when I saw that–like, an extreme reaction to moving to Cold ST. Called my brother to discuss; he has been to City, Cold ST and was like, “Ugh.” Smaller than where I live, higher cost of living, worse weather. He wisely pointed out that if I moved there, the higher COL would amount to a pay cut. Person on FB who used to attend classes there said (and I quote), “Nooooooo, City Cold ST suuuuuucks!” :(

    I was really devastated–though I desperately want to get out of My ST, a move to CloserCity would be so much easier right now, and it’s big enough there is stuff to do and this company has an office in CityNearTheSea, Awesome ST where I want to live and I was thinking OMG eventual transfer, aaaaahhhh. But I didn’t want to get stuck again in a place I hate. I’m already living that nightmare right now.

    I sent back a reply that basically said this: “Hi Person! I am definitely open to relocation; however, this position came up in a CloserCity search, and I thought it was at your office there. I was hoping it would be, as I have family in the area and eventually want to move out west [see what I did there]. So I’m not sure that Cold ST would be right for me. I hope you will keep me in mind if something else opens up. Thanks again,” blah blah blah.

    No reply. *sigh* Why why why why whyyyyyy
    Oh well, who knows.

    1. Biff*

      I think if you are really having an unexpected meltdown/extreme emotional reaction, then you maybe need to sit down and really outline where you are willing to go, and why. And listen to your gut!

      I live in a state/area people come visit, and want to move to. They usually don’t stay if they do, and that’s because they really cannot handle the weather. They don’t realize that for ever ‘perfect summer’ we have, we have a couple of years of cold summers, and also a couple of years of miserable heat. Our winters can be brutal — I’ve spent a week doing little other than shoveling in shifts. Don’t get suckered into a job in a location that has a lot of features you don’t like in the winter — I recently lost a friend because she did this, and I couldn’t take the 6 straight months of pissing, moaning and complaining. I’m sure I’m not the only friend she’s lost over this. It’s isolating and invalidating to live in place that you can’t stand six months out of the year.

      What I would do is outline places you could live. For example, maybe you want to focus on Phoenix, or Tuscon because that’s your kind of heat. Or maybe you’d be happy in Texas. Once you’ve narrowed down locations that are appealing, you can really focus on them and dig into a satisfying job search. You can also read up about the area and learn if there in nearby locations you could add to your job search.

      1. Me*

        I know EXACTLY where I want to go; I just can’t afford it.

        It wasn’t just the weather–City Cold ST is smaller and more expensive than where I live now. I was afraid I would get stuck again, especially if I had higher living expenses and couldn’t save up to leave. That’s why I had such a big reaction. If it were in Closer City, I would have jumped on it. Even though I don’t want to live there either, it’s bigger and has more going on; also the weather is comparable to here and it’s at least tolerable.

        1. SeekingBetter*

          I can totally understand why you wouldn’t really want to move to City Cold ST. And yes, I agree that it might make it harder to save money in a higher COL area *just* because everything is more expensive. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely consider Closer City because there is more going on. I couldn’t really see myself living in an area where there’s less people.

  175. Encouraging Kids to Work Hard*

    Hi everyone,

    I sometimes find it very hard to encourage kids especially tweens and teenagers why it is a better path to choose to work hard to earn money to make a living.

    I have given suggestions that working hard and studying hard can help with acquiring perserverance skills and developing new trades and talent.

    I find that saying things such as “if you don’t work you’ll have no money and starve,” “you can find good jobs if you study hard,” “working connects you with better people,” “willingness to work is perceived by society as good,” etc. does not seem to encourage young people anymore. Especially the ones who grew up in families with no working motivation.

    I lived in a large liberal welfare state, where there is a lot of corruption of abusing government aid. Kids have been exposed by their family, friends, neighbors, etc. that making oneself qualify for government aid is better than doing “back-breaking” work. They are also exposed to reality TV that distorts the reality of how one can be rich.

    How can we encourage kids to pick a career of doing meaningful work if there is little motivation/incentive in the environment they live in?

    1. A Non E. Mouse*

      Late to the party, it I think bringing in actual successful people from the neighborhood or one very similar to talk to them is key.

      It’s one thing to say “work hard and this will happen” than to SEE “this person worked hard and good things happened”. I also think real-world mentors would be able to help them navigate obstacles you might not even know exist, subtle obstacles like frequent disencouragement or additional noise while trying to do homework, no adult at home who is willing or able to help with homework/applications/college searches, etc.

      What might also help are concrete attempts at helping them develop the skills you think they need – volunteer activities organized by those successful people I mentioned above, help with the cost of a uniform if they are hired on somewhere, partnering with some grocery, hardware, etc. stores local to them for “outreach” type part-time jobs as a bridge to bigger and better things.

      Often the trouble is that seeing 10 years from now is too hard, when tomorrow looks tough enough.

    2. Ann O.*

      I was an academically-oriented teen from a family of career-successful workers in a fairly high income suburb and bluntly, the phrases you’re quoting would have demotivated ME. They sound preachy, and they’re making claims that the tweens/teens almost certainly either have seen is not always true (“you can find good jobs if you study hard” — not if you’re in an area with low employment) or are predicated on values they may not share. For example “working connects you with better people” — that one actually could be flat out alienating if many of them have friends/family who are underemployed, unemployed, on disability, etc. … you’re insulting their friends/family by implication.

      I’m not really sure what your stakes or goals are here. Are you a teacher? A community mentor? A church elder? Depending on your role, the optimal strategy is going to be different. But I think a general strategy is to listen more to what your kids are interested in and focus on more concrete connections between forms of working hard and achieving the actual goal. Set aside your desire to have them share your personal values that hard work is good and think about the action. Are you trying to help them study more often? Focus more on academics? Apply to colleges? Envision career-focused goals?

      I’d also suggest being open to the idea that maybe it’s okay for people to have different values. I don’t know how old you are, but a lot of low-ncome work right now seems to be cruel and dehumanizing. Personally, I would have a tough time telling teens they should aspire to work in conditions like an Amazon warehouse (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor) or retail with scheduling abuse (first part of this summarizes the practices referred to as scheduling abuse: http://blog.capterra.com/tips-for-better-employee-scheduling/). If the jobs in their community are similar to that, personally, I think it’d actually be pretty logical and smart not to value work as some kind of moral/ethical good.

      1. Temperance*

        Thank you for this comment. I’m one of those former poor kids, and this post was deeply upsetting and stigmatizing. Your comment is lovely and full of empathy.

        I’m very fortunate to be in a way better position now, but a lot of that is because I have a high IQ and was always determined to do well academically, even though most of my family either quit high school or just graduated and that was that. Being told by some privileged adult that I needed the “dignity” of the kind of jobs open to people like me, which would be like Wal-mart or K-mart cashiering, is so incredibly offensive.

        1. blackcat*

          When I did my student teaching, I had a kid in my class who was SO. FED. UP. with being told he just needed to work.

          His mom worked 14 hours a day at two jobs, at minimum wage. It wasn’t enough to support the family. He took care of his four younger siblings. One day, he was really upset after a meeting from the guidance counselor, who had told him that he needed to apply himself more to get a good job after high school. The kid was bright, but had bad grades, largely because every waking hour outside of school he spent caring for his younger siblings. He regularly got suspended for being late to school frequently–and he was late because the elementary school started 30 minutes after the high school. And the schools’ response has been that his mom needed to find a better job so that he didn’t have to take his siblings to school.

          When I asked him how he was feeling, he took a big breath and explained very calmly that there were no good jobs for a black man with a high school diploma around there. He couldn’t afford college. He knew the minimum requirements for the Navy would sure to meet those and enlist as soon as possible. He planned to can send all of the money to his mom so she wouldn’t have to work so hard. He was sad and angry the school didn’t respect him or mom.

          To many people, including the counselor, this kid didn’t “understand the importance of hard work.” What I saw was a kid who, despite being beaten down by the system, knew a lot about hard work and what it meant to sacrifice for family. He didn’t believe anything anyone told him about “hard work” being all he needed, because he had never seen a single black man in his neighborhood with a “good” job. He developed a plan to cope with that: the military was his way to a better life. He was WAY more mature than the teenagers I later taught at a private prep school, and no one was telling those (rich) kids about the importance of hard work.

          Saying those sorts of things to kids won’t motivate those who are actually lazy. All it will do is further demoralize the kids who will work hard, but are held back by other problems.

    3. animaniactoo*

      How do you feel about talking about the long-term effects* of working to stay on government aid when you don’t actually need it, and the realities of underpayment/COL for much of the working class? Acknowledging the unfairness of it while at the same time highlighting the realities of what opting out means to them as people who will eventually need such services or for others they know who aren’t getting as much from services as they need?

      *Perceptions of fraud creating issues for those who actually need the services, budgets/services being cut across the board, money spent on services less available to be spent on things like schools/job training/infrastructure such as roads, parks, etc.?

    4. Temperance*

      Ugh. Why are you so preachy towards these people?

      I grew up poor. Most of what you’re saying here is just so offensive and patronizing, and I’m one of those unicorns who rose above poverty and a lack of opportunity. I have two degrees and am admitted to the bar in two states.

      The things that you’re saying are just not true. Being on SS disability pays more than a crap minimum wage job, and will come with other benefits, like medical, food, and housing. Working low-skill jobs is not satisfying, which you wouldn’t know because you’ve likely never done it. Personally, as a poor kid, I resented the hell out of people like YOU who were telling me exactly what was wrong with me and my parents. My father worked hard at labor jobs, but those were outsourced, probably by people like you/people in your social and economic group, and we occasionally depended on state heathcare and WIC. Never TANF or cash assistance.

      And you know what? There’s nothing dignified about taking a crap job to support yourself, because you have no other options. Empathy, get some.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My family’s poverty was not financial. The deficits were in the arena of understanding how the world works and how workplaces function.

      My question to you is how do kids pick a career if they do not even know what options are out there?
      How do they work toward their chosen career if they do not know the steps to take to get there?
      Where do these kids find mentors? And what’s a mentor.
      How do they go to school full time and take care of sick or elderly family members?

      And that is what I can come up with, we were financially okay. But my father grew up in a family that moved him 15 times before he reached 18. Parents can’t teach what they don’t know themselves.

  176. jamlady*

    It looks like my position will run out of funding this year, though probably at the end of the year, but my contractor instincts told me to get online and take a look at openings. What I saw was my previous horrible/toxic/evil company hiring for my dream job at dream location. They won that contract because they’re cheap, but they’re going to ruin that whole program. I’ve been telling myself all day not to apply to the job – I must stay strong!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Oh dear – what an quandary!
      Is it a contract position? Are you thinking of trying to apply and stick it out for a year to get to dream location?
      All the best – I have lots of friends that work contract to contract and it sounds so challenging…

      1. jamlady*

        Yeah it’s another contract – but it’s a 5 year! However, the PM at that company is horrendous and it’s just not worth anything to leave my current position (which is awesome) until funding runs out or I find a perm. gov. job. I would love to work at that place, but the company is awful! And yes, contracting life has become very exhausting. Job hopping is acceptable in my field, but it’s stressful and it’s become not so fun.

  177. IT burningout*

    I’m an IT professional seeking a career change and wonder if anyone has any advice on moving on from the information technology field. IT is notorious for age discrimination and I’m 52; however, I’m burning out on the field regardless. I have a Masters in IT but am more interested in leveraging my Bachelors in Business these days. Does anyone have any ideas on what careers might be good for an over 50 IT burnout who lives in a rural area? I’m considering accounting or bookkeeping since most businesses would need that, and either could probably be done remotely. Is that a realistic career change at my age?

    1. jamlady*

      My husband is in IT and has actually had some discussions with older colleagues about this sort of thing. Most of them went into IT Security and DoD, which I guess was a good move, but one of them did mention accounting or something similar as a good choice. You’d just need to know the software – which is probably fine because you’re probably tech savvy, even if people don’t think you are because you’re not fresh out of college (sorry btw – discrimination is the absolute worst). Other things where strong tech skills are needed but not the entirety of the job (admin work, bookkeeping, etc.) could work. Maybe project management also – if you’ve spent a lot of time in IT working in a client-facing roll and have been managing people, that might be something to look into.

      1. IT Burningout*

        Thank you Jamlady (and your husband, too). It sounds like I’m on the right track, or, at least, a similar track as some of my fellow, older IT pros. I have a strong background with financial systems/software, so I think I’ll look into accounting/bookkeeping more. A local community college is offering a bookkeeping certificate.

  178. Lynne879*

    Does anyone have suggestions in getting involved in social media?

    I like how creative it can be & I do fully acknowledge that it’s not as easy as it looks. I run the social media pages of a local non-profit as part of my volunteer work, so I have some experience but not enough to get a job.

    Background: I graduated from college a year ago & I have no marketing degree.

    Any advice?

    1. SophieChotek*

      There are tons of white papers about how to increase engagement and activity.

      It sounds like your volunteering can be very useful — can you volunteer for another organization to get different experience?
      Have you analyzed your social media effort in your volunteer position? (i.e. due to these activities that I suggested we grew our followers by X percent/X number. I did A/B testing which proved that for this non-profit, this type of post saw more engagement and likes than this other type of post. I thought up these social media campaigns that resulted in more online engagement and also saw conversion — we saw an increase in our donations or calls to volunteer or visits to our museum, etc.) Have you integrated Google Analytics? Is your website getting more direct traffic due to your social media pages? I guess these are just ideas on how you can show how your volunteer work is maybe worth more than you think? And you do have the experience? I’m not sure…just throwing it out there. (My current job has a lot of marketing & PR components and social media management and I have backgrounds in neither.)

      Are you saying you want a marketing job with its main focus as social media?

      1. Lynne879*

        Thank you for responding! Your advice is helpful.

        My only hands-on experience with working with social media for a business has been my volunteer work. I have some knowledge of Hootsuite but I’m not an expert. I have done research on how certain times on day are the best to post on different platforms. I know more about SM now than I did a few months ago, but I don’t know enough to actually apply for a full-time job.

        I’m mainly interested in being a social media manager- someone’s who’s main job is running a company’s social media networks & using them as tools to promote it & build an audience. SM is in the marketing area in terms of jobs, so I feel like I need to have an idea on how marketing works.

        Whenever I think about a career path that seems interesting, my struggle has always been how to find a way to gain experience in order to get that job. Volunteering is one step, but I’m not sure on what my next one is, other than doing more volunteering & analyzing how my job of running the social media pages has affected the non-profit I work at.

        1. SophieChotek*

          @Lynne879

          I would recommend perhaps reading this book by David M. Scott – the New rules of Marketing and PR (new edition). You might find that helpful.

          Otherwise, even though I am (sort of) in this field I have little else to offer except what I’ve already said. You might find white papers helpful. And since you volunteer maybe you can even apply some of the suggestions there. There are tons of sites like Hootsuite that may or not be helpful.

          Marketko
          Content Marketing Institute
          TrackMaven
          Moz
          Kissmetrics
          Spin Sucks
          TheShelf[dot]com
          Cision
          MarketingProfs
          Social Media Examiner
          Pardot
          Marketing Land
          ReadyPulse

          — Not endorsing any of these — but they are all marketing companies/SEO companies/Social Media companies that put out white papers and articles that you may want to follow/subscribe to. (If you don’t have a work email you might want to create a separate email…some of the send out tons. Plus you’ll get sales calls from them; I created a separate # via Google to avoid.) It just might help you think about how to navigate Social Media — or even think about working with one of the companies, if you don’t actually run the marketing/social media for a company that does it in house.

          Yes, Im not sure what else you can do other than more volunteering and being able to write and explain critically what you did and why it is valuable. Obviously there dregrees in business/social media even (?) but those can cost $ and no guarantee of a job. Experience usually trumps a degree anyway,

  179. VioletEMT*

    A colleague moved on from our company. We’d worked together on projects, I was sad to see her go (though fully sympathetic to her choice), and enthusiastically agreed to be a reference for her.

    I just got an email from someone doing a reference check for a job she really wants. TWELVE ESSAY QUESTIONS. All open ended stuff like,
    -How would you evaluate his/her ability to take constructive criticism? Can you give an example?
    -How would you describe his/her ability to work under pressure? Can you give me an example?
    -How does he/she handle conflict situations? Can you give an example?
    -How does he/she operate in a group setting? How about in a lead role? What about a sense of willingness to take initiative and/or “own” an outcome or effort? Can you give an example?

    I mean, these are all really good questions, but dear god. Really? Part of me’s like, if you want this much detail, send me the questions ahead of time and then call me. I literally just spend four hours answering this. I feel like her getting the job hinges on my writing ability. No pressure or anything.

    1. Effie*

      That is so kind of you! I’ve never been a reference but I think your “email to preview questions, then call” is much more reasonable. I hope your former co-worker gives you a big thank-you whether she gets the job or not!

      Tangent – I applied for a yearlong internship at a non-profit for young adults (18-25) when I was in that age range, and their application contained a bunch of open-ended questions similar. I spent at least three weeks answering the questions, making sure I was as thorough as possible, giving concrete examples, and editing them. My friend was also applying and he told me he spent about an hour on the whole thing (he wrote 1-2 lines per question). We both got in :P

    2. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      God bless you and god bless the poor soul who would need me as a reference to do that because, yeah, that would not happen.

  180. emma2*

    Question: 5 months ago I applied for a job where I interviewed with the recruiter and hiring manager. I eventually did not get the job, but the recruiter seemed to like me and added me as a linkedin connection. Now, I just applied for another opening in the same company – should I email this recruiter letting her know I applied, and if so, how should I go about it?

    Thanks!

  181. Anonyby*

    Hopefully someone sees this!

    Any tips on dealing with Awkward at work?

    Background: I’ve been working PT at one office in my company for a few years now (after a lateral move from another office). Weekend reception, and floating during the week. My manager has been trying to boost my hours & has been working to create a new FT position for me, but it’s been 9 months with no change.

    Well, for the past few months my floating has been almost exclusively for another office that let go of their previous weekday receptionist. The manager offered me the position on Tuesday, and I accepted on Wednesday. Monday we’re going to hash out hours (because I’ll still be doing weekends at my current office for a while, since the new office really doesn’t need me there FT). I’ll also be covering at my current office on Tuesday next week (timing was too close for me to decline without making it obvious something was up). I’m sure that’s about when the news will break that I’ll be mostly moving to a new office.

    I needed the FT, and the pay increase though. I’ve been stagnant in my roll, frustrated and stressed by the constant changing of hours/location/never knowing.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure why this is awkward. Do you have some unanswered questions? Maybe you can work out those particulars on Monday?
      It’s pretty normal for people to want full time work. I think they realize that.

      1. Observer*

        This. Furthermore, your current boss KNOWS you want FT – and has been dangling it for *nine months*. He has to know that you would take the opportunity if it were offered. And, that you were not going to come back to him and ask again, since he’s lost credibility on the issue by now.

        1. Anonyby*

          I’ve been taking the plans he’s talked about with a grain of salt, but I think I should have been adding more salt than that (though I have been looking outside the company).

      2. Anonyby*

        I think part of it is that /I/ feel awkward about it (especially since my current office is a better cultural fit), and I’m still going to be working with them. The last time I changed offices within the company I was actually in the middle of a job hunt and ready to be GONE, but this time I care about this office still.

  182. RebeccaNoraBunch*

    What do you do when you’re being severely underpaid?

    I’m a long-time reader/first time commenter here – hoping maybe some of the AAM commentariat can help me with an issue I’m having at work.

    To give a little background, I started 3.5 years ago in an entry-level role at a fast-growth startup in a very dynamic industry. Since then, I’ve been promoted 3 times, the last time being one year ago this month. I went from an individual contributor role to a leadership role (something akin to a team lead) to now a full-time trainer role for the past year.

    When I was promoted last year, there was a senior person in my same role who was not my manager but who did the more advanced version of my job. He was let go four months after I was promoted, and I volunteered to assume his responsibilities since someone needed to and it was a great opportunity for career growth for me. It saved the company from having to hire a senior person and I have at least double the experience in a very short time than I would have if he hadn’t left.

    Here’s the problem: when I was promoted, and even before the extra responsibility, I was given a paltry raise that, even for my core responsibilities, was at least $10-15k less than industry average for my area. (I’ve done a lot of research on Glassdoor and other sites.) When the senior person left, I took on even more responsibility and according to my research (and my manager’s feedback) I’ve been doing the job of 2.5 people this past year.

    While I really like my company and it’s afforded me a lot of great experience, and I also really enjoy my job, I am burned out in a way I didn’t know I could be. I have been experiencing physical side effects of burnout since last summer, up to and including a painful kidney stone.

    All this would be uncomfortable but bearable except for the fact that I am being paid $10-15k (at least) less than I should be for my role. Some sites tell me I should be making $20k+ more than I am making now. I used advice I found on AAM and asked my manager for a raise in September of last year. He agreed I should get one and said he would advocate for me with HR (the HR director decides the raise amounts and sets the limits, I assume this is how it’s done everywhere?) but it’s been four months and I’ve heard nothing. I’ve followed up a couple of times but my manager just tells me that as soon as he knows, I will know. I believe he is trying but my company is notorious for being tight-fisted with money. Several members on my team and other teams are severely underpaid, and several people have verbalized to me that they’re amazed I do all I do for what little money I make. The company’s low salaries have become so pervasive an issue that we’ve had a huge problem with employee retention this year as a result.

    Anyway, this is making me feel extremely unappreciated, devalued, and unenthusiastic about work. It’s getting to the “bitch eating crackers” stage at this point, as I feel like it’s been my mistake to care too much and make myself physically sick by working too hard for no appreciation. I have started job searching but as of yet I only have one year of “titled” experience in my role (though I was doing parts of my current job and my former role for a year before I was actually promoted), and most places are looking for at least 3 years. I could take a step backward and get a job easily I’m sure, but I want to move forward in my career, not backward. Also – this one (admittedly huge) issue aside, I mostly really like my company, my team, and my manager, and don’t want to leave.

    Does anyone have any thoughts, commiseration, or advice? I feel like I’m becoming increasingly negative to the point where it’s affecting my relationships outside work, and I definitely don’t want that to happen.

    Thank you in advance!

    1. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      The HR director deciding raises isn’t “the way things are done”, at all. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t done that way anywhere, hello your company, but it’s not normal.

      What’s normal is for departments to have budgets and for senior managers to decide how the budgets are spent. In a highly structured organization, HR may have input into job classifications and salary bands, but actual money available is management, not HR.

      None of this solves your problem, but no, it’s not normal. A manager doesn’t sit around with her hat in hand hoping HR will give an employee a raise. A manager may have to get a senior manager to approve it but HR, no.

      As far as what you do, well there I’m as stuck as you are. Don’t let yourself get so bitter you do a poor job because in the grand scheme of your career, it won’t help you. Surely limit how much of yourself you pour out for it though. This is a business transaction, it doesn’t require your whole heart and soul.

      If it’s appropriate AT ALL in your org, you might want to ask your boss if you can meet with him and his boss. Somebody controls the purse strings for your department and it’s not HR.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I wondered if Boss was lying to her as a stall tactic.

        OP, when a job starts to make you sick you know that means it’s coming to an end, right? No job is worth losing your health over. You can find other places with good things about the place.

        1. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

          I thought I had that in my post but I must have edited it for brevity.

          My first reaction was “lying as a stall tactic” but I figure it’s possible a fast growth start up has a weird residual structure from being a much smaller org where HR has a lot of power. We’re just cleaning up issues in one of our divisions where groups of employees don’t really have a line manager and have had to go to HR for raises which, is ***not*** normal. Not my job since not my division but I kinda freaked out on PTB about this issue a year ago since it is so utterly ridiculous.

          In our case, it’s not that HR was in charge of the money but they were the only ones who would lend an ear and spend the time finding it for people who needed it. hashtag dontgetmestarted

          1. RebeccaNoraBunch*

            Thank you both for your responses! This speaks to a core problem – that my company still operates as a very young startup when in reality we are 250+ people strong and no longer that. I truly believe my manager is not lying as others on my team are as underpaid and under-resourced as I am, and it is a constant source of visible frustration for him. I have witnessed it myself, as has everyone on my team. HR has also been involved in some ridiculous things (like pre-sales and sales call/productivity quotas, for example) that they shouldn’t be, so yeah, no, I don’t believe he is lying. A constant complaint is that we continually act like a start-up when we’re, in fact, not one anymore.

            I expect the answer is as simple as: do the best I can with what I have, keep looking, and jump when the offer is better. I admit it’s my fault for letting it affect my health, so caring less and compartmentalizing more are on the docket for goals in 2017. I’m glad to hear HR doesn’t decide these kinds of things everywhere; that is super encouraging. Hopefully someday I will be paid what I am worth! :)

            1. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

              Bah.

              Yeah I have been at Wakeen’s for 30 years and seen the transition from fewer than 10 employees to 250+ so I get this so completely, even the utterly inappropriate dept meddling. In our case it was finance instead of HR meddling in bizarre areas but we pulled this all in shape (mostly!) once our headcount was around 150 total. There’s still residual shit but, not my problem, as I’m a one woman defense system against that stuff touching me and mine.

              You’ve got a good plan and listen, they will absolutely HAVE to get their acts together sooner or later. My bet is sooner because that’s unsustainable at your size. Either current senior management will fix it or the money people will throw out senior management and bring in new managment who will fix it.

            2. Observer*

              Wakeen is right. In the meantime, yes, the answer is that simple. Do the best with what you have, see if you can talk to your boss’ boss, and keep looking. Maybe you can take a lateral move or something only half a step back? Whatever, if it’s affecting your health that needs to play into the calculation.

              Lots of luck.

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