open thread – June 1-2, 2018

by Alison Green on June 1, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Samiratou*

    Breaking up with vendors–how do you do it?

    We’re looking to move away from a significant vendor of ours ($1M+ spend per year) that I’ve been working with for the last 7 years and I’ve never done that before. For those that have been there, how do you do it? There is no chance they could save the account. How far out do you let them know? We have a 30 day out clause, and we’re not under contract, but it will take some time to migrate to the new vendor (with virtually no work needed on their part, though). Do you let them know initially by phone or email? My inclination is email, for similar reasons as the letter from earlier this week about rejecting people by phone–email would give them a chance to process a bit before a call to “discuss the transition” but may come off as cowardly? Not sure. I’m the person who has worked the most with the team there, but I’m not in management, so I’m not sure if the initial notification should come from me or someone more senior.

    I’m naturally conflict-avoidant, so while we really need to move onto a different vendor, I’m dreading telling the current vendor.

    1. Delta Delta*

      I think you do need to tell them, and to follow the parameters of whatever contract you may have with them. I once worked for someone who was very conflict-avoidant and who essentially ghosted a vendor contract. It had the unintentional result of seriously disrupting an essential product/service package, which had a negative impact on our ability to function for a few days. This could have been avoided with a call saying, essentially that we needed to go with a different vendor. Good luck! I hope it goes smoothly!

      1. Samiratou*

        Oh, yes, we definitely wouldn’t ghost them. That wouldn’t be an option even if we wanted to, we’re just trying to figure out how it should go. We haven’t yet received funding for the migration yet, and that’s by no means assured for this year, which is why we haven’t been able to say anything yet.

    2. TonyTonyChopper*

      While I’ve not been the lead on this type of thing before, I’ve been a project to replace a current vendor. Generally, you want to send an email to let them know that due to business needs, you will be starting the search for a new vendor – although, in my experience, this was sent after a phone conversation with the rep but we had good relationship with our rep and they knew long before the official announcement that we were going to change systems as soon as our contract was up.

      It might be trickier for you since you don’t have a definite contract end date, but I would say you’d have to send an email even if you do speak with them over the phone so you (a) have a paper trail and (b) they can forward the notification to the appropriate people within their organization.

    3. anna green*

      I’ve been the vendor in this situation. Definitely let them know as soon as reasonable (depending of course of whether you feel they’ll be professional and keep the same level of service once you “quit”). Email is probably fine, just make it polite and personal. In my situation, the client kept telling us they weren’t sure or would probably keep doing business with us, everytime they saw us in person. And then a few weeks later we got a formal letter ending the contract. I can understand why they did the formal letter for legal purposes, but a quick heads up by phone or email before the letter would have been nicer and more respectful of the relationship. You never know when you may need that person again one day. Check with management and if its okay, let them know yourself if you dealt with them most, would be my opinion.

      1. Samiratou*

        That’s crappy behavior–I can’t see us doing that! We haven’t said anything yet because we don’t have funding secured for the migration, so we don’t want do the thing where we’re like “Yup, we’re leaving!” and then not leave for a year.

        I don’t think that will happen in this case, as we have a pretty darn good business case of cost savings & benefits from new features with the new vendor, but I don’t know what other priorities are out there for this year that might get in the way.

        1. Safetykats*

          I really don’t think it’s appropriate or necessary to communicate anything until you know when you’ll end the contractual relationship. Just as you wouldn’t tell an employee “Hey, we might have to let you go sometime this year, or definitely next year, but almost definitely sometime.” The only value in that, as long as you intend to give adequate notice, would be if there was something they could do to change your mind. Figure out when you will be able to start moving to the new vendor, go from there.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I agree that an email is best. It’s in writing, which is good for business correspondence, and it gives everyone room to process. I hope you have at least been letting them know there are problems with their product/service up until now and that this isn’t the first time they are aware your company is unhappy. Keep it very brief and don’t go into too many details about why you are moving to a new vendor or details about the new vendor, even if they ask — which they probably will.

      “Dear Account Rep,

      I appreciate that you have acted in good faith to try to resolve the issues with XYZ, however due to the ongoing problems (My Company) will be discontinuing our business with (Your Company). (My Company) will need to transition to a new vendor beginning on June 1, 2018, and all business with (Your Company) will need to be completed by July 1, 2018. I would like to set up a meeting to discuss the transition this week with (people who need to be involved). Please let me know when you can meet in person/conference call for an (?-length) meeting.”

      If you have a more personal relationship with your account reps, you can add something personal for them, “I’ve always appreciate that you responded to my requests promptly and professionally and this is unfortunate that (Your Company) is unable to …” or something similar. Emphasis that this is about the companies being unable to reach a business agreement and not a personal rejection.

      1. Samiratou*

        This is a good script, thank you! The main reason we’re leaving is they haven’t been able to deliver on a promised feature set that we need, and aren’t showing the best signs of being able to get it to us anytime soon.

        1. seller of teapots*

          As a sales rep, I’ll chime in: email is fine (I’d actually prefer email, as you said, so I can figure out how best to respond.), but do give them the opportunity, if you’re comfortable (and your rep isnt the overly pushy type) to chat on the phone about the situation.

          Often in these cases, the rep is pressured to “save the account” (even when they know they can’t and want to be respectful of the business needs), and having a feedback oriented conversation can resolve that pressure from the higher-ups. Additionally, feedback is always helpful. Sometimes I think people don’t want to say why they aren’t buying/aren’t going with a given rep because they dont want to hurt her feelings, but feedback makes our jobs SO MUCH easier. It helps us give context to the situation, and helps enable change so we don’t lose other customers as well, etc.

    5. Bea*

      They’re used to being fired essentially. You’ll tell them you’re moving to another supplier.

      If you want to, you can use it to try to get better pricing if staying with them is even an option.

      I’m constantly searching for new vendors. It’s vital to keep costs low and have the proper channels opened to negotiate pricing.

      You can’t make it so personal. They know the drill!

      1. Specialk9*

        I think it’s really important to keep in mind that it’s not a personal relationship. Vendors and sales people try to make it feel personal, they talk about family and hobbies. But it’s a tactic to help them sell better. I keep that distance mentally – I shoot the breeze, and am warm and personable, and make sure to give kudos to their bosses if they do good work… But we’re not friends.

        Just a mental note for future business relationships.

        (But also, I’d still be stressing this a bit. But don’t worry, it won’t be as bad as you imagine.)

    6. Ama*

      I agree with all of these, I think as soon as you have the new vendor and the official migration date confirmed you should send them an email and let them know. I would also make sure you have full access to any source files, account passwords, or any other materials the vendor may have been handling for you — 99% of the time it won’t be necessary, but every so often you do hear about people acting vindictively (or even just becoming much less responsive once you are no longer a client) and you don’t want to realize that they have something essential to your work in that case.

      In general people appreciate professional and clear communication and will respond in kind, but it doesn’t hurt to be prepared for a worst case scenario.

      1. Bea*

        Ah yeah. The vindictive ones. We had some jerkwads damage our print plates. They forwarded them to the new vendor by tossing them loose into a box.

    7. Yams*

      If there’s a contract, just send the required notification (email is better!) and let them know there is already a new vendor ready to go. MAKE SURE THE NEW VENDOR IS READY TO GO BEFORE YOU SEND THE NOTIFICATION! There may be a bit of overlap in the services but it is far better to have the overlap than to have service disruptions. Right now I am managing a transition between two suppliers of a complex product and i have been ramping up with the new supplier for two months so they are ready to hit the ground running with first delivery on July 2nd, with the old supplier delivering the last stock on June 25th.
      I’m super conflict averse and have had to be in this position so much over the last month and it sucks. I hate doing it. I do ghost smaller vendors and when they complain just say that business needs changed and we are moving in a different direction. For bigger stuff I have to put on my big boy pants and go talk to people in person, which is the worst. It is just so awkward.

    8. Wakeen Teaptots, LTD*

      I would never break up with a 1 million dollar vendor over email. Assuming there are personal relationships, it is indeed like firing an employee (as far as manners go). I would do it either in person or, if not possible, over the phone, and the job should fall to the most senior person available on both sides of it.

      This assumes that your 1 million in business is significant to them. If it is a huge company and the 1 million is most significant to say the sales rep (who is losing a one million dollar account :( ) , then the sales rep is the person you break it to. People lose jobs over losing million dollar accounts.

      You should not feel guilty for making the right business decision to move your business elsewhere, but treating people on the vendor side with respect and compassion while doing so is the right thing to do (and also will get you a good reputation – people change companies all the time).

      1. Samiratou*

        In person isn’t feasible, due to geography. $1 million is pretty significant, but we don’t really have a sales rep. We have our account rep and a few others on the team, but since our original contract expired with them a few years ago, we’ve been just kind of going along with the status quo for awhile. We would be breaking it to the account rep, but I don’t know if this will impact her job. It’s not her fault, really, that we’re leaving (though she’s not great), we just need some functionality that this vendor doesn’t offer at this time. Supposedly they’re building it, but they told us that last year and the new vendor is much more mature in this space and will be a lot cheaper, as well.

        1. Wakeen Teaptots, LTD*

          Interesting. Well it doesn’t sound as if they have been working very hard to retain your business, does it?

          If your company legit doesn’t have relationships higher than the account rep servicing the account, then maybe I would email so that the account rep has it in her hands when she tells her boss. (Okay, *I* probably still wouldn’t do it over email initially – I’d probably find somebody higher in the food chain and make it their problem but I think that is more me than what is the Correct Thing to Do).

          No matter I wouldn’t give one extra days notice. Nothing good comes out of long break ups with vendors.

        2. Triple Anon*

          So it sounds like you have a solid reason. I would make it about that, and be very polite and friendly. Tell them you need X by Y date so you have to move to another supplier, you’ve enjoyed working with them (if you have, and list reasons), and you wish their company the best.

    9. Media Monkey*

      there should be something in your contract that would tell you how you need to give the 30 day notice. however depending on how good/ close your relationship is (not that good given that you are breaking up!) you might want to give them a heads up beforehand? However i would definitely advise a call afterwards to discuss with them and give feedback. Have you given them negative feedback already in an attempt to save the relationship? As if so they won’t be that surprised/ shocked.

      1. Samiratou*

        Well, they know they don’t offer features we need, and have been supposedly developing over the past couple years, but we don’t have a ton of confidence they will get there anytime soon or that they have any urgency there.

    10. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t think it matters who notifies them, but from my experience someone on the vendor end will probably want to speak with or discuss with your management/decision maker, considering it’s a 7yr relatoinship with a $1M+ client. I know you’re saying there’s no chance to save the account…but you say don’t even have funding set aside yet for a new vendor, so maybe there’s a chance they could change your mind? Can you elaborate on why you’re making the change?

      1. Samiratou*

        It’s mainly about features, but also costs. They’ve supposedly been developing a new feature that we need, which is pretty standard in this space, but they’re nowhere close. We’ve also got an outdated contract and when the presented us a new offer it wasn’t one that would save us anything, really, and they still can’t provide the features we need. There have been some other support issues that they haven’t been particularly responsive on.

        By funding not set aside yet, our engineering team recently sized the project and now we’re working with finance to get approval for it. We will get it approved, but it may not be until next year.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          Are they developing the feature just in general to stay competitive in the industry, or are they developing it just for your company? If they are developing something just for your company, I would give them as much notice as possible that they are losing your business, just as the ethical thing to do. If they are doing it in general to stay competitive, wait to give notice until a new vendor and finances are set and the transition is starting immediately. Then make the physical transition (if there is one) as fast as possible — less than 2 weeks even, even if you are obligated to keep paying for the 30 days notice period.

          But, since your company seems to have refused to sign a new contract after the old one expired, I bet they’ve figured out they’ve already lost the account. I hope your company also has received legal advice — continuing to operate without a valid contract on a $1 million deal is risky. What happens if they decide that since you don’t have a contract that they’re giving YOU 30-day notice to cut off services?

    11. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Continue business as usual until you have the new vendor setup and ready to migrate. Then give the 30 days notice in whatever format the agreement stipulates. Too much warning and you might have some service issues as they won’t care as much since you won’t matter in the future.
      Officially worded email from whomever officially oversees the agreement is the best option. Even though it probably feels like it to you, this isn’t a personal relationship. Its business and happens often.

    12. Anon Vendor*

      Vendor here. I disagree that it needs to be done via phone or in person. For me an email would be totally sufficient, especially if that’s how the majority of your communications with that vendor have been, but that might be something to determine person-by-person. I agree with another comment that it’s fine to include something personal (and something kind can be nice to hear) but it’s most useful to be clear about timelines, include any specifics as to why you’re moving, know the guidelines in the contract, etc so that they can do what they need to do to end those services and pass any relevant information along internally. Also is fine if it comes from you (my own opinion) and not from someone with more authority. They’re used to you being the authority.
      Anyways, good luck and don’t worry – they know it’s just business!

    13. TootsNYC*

      I’d only tell them once you got to the 30-day mark.
      It’s just like quitting a job–once you’ve told them you’re not going to be in a relationship with them anymore, you run the risk of them acting like jerks.

      And you don’t have to tell them that they couldn’t save the relationship at all; I mean, that might seem fair to do, and it _would_ be fair if this were a friendship or a romantic relationship. But I think you need to look out for yourself (in this case, “yourself” = “the company”).
      (In fact, sometimes in an interpersonal relationship, it would be OK to start laying your plans to leave without revealing that, if the danger were high.)

      Now, if all those efforts become visible or apparent to the outgoing vendor, you may need to reveal the danger they are in. But again, it’s up to you whether you hedge or whether you reveal all. You could easily say, “We’re exploring our options. As you know, these factors have been a big problem for us.”

      And as with any relationship (employer/employee, interpersonal, etc.), the honorable thing to do is to let people know that problems exist before things become unfixable.

      Their contract says 30 days, so presumably they are able to deal with their loss of income w/ that level of notice.

    14. cookie monster*

      I have done this before. The time I did it with a major vendor, I drafted an official letter, which I then emailed to them as an attachment. I basically said something like “we’ve really valued our relationship with you over the years and I want you to know the decision to leave is NOT based on the excellent work you did for us over the past years which allowed us to get (big expensive problem) into a manageable place such that we can now handle it in house”

    15. Jerry Vandesic*

      Send a postal letter, specifying the details of the contract cancellation. Don’t offer any chance for a followup discussion. A phone call or email might not have the same legal impact.

    16. Arjay*

      I’m glad to read the responses. I’m in a similar situation, and its frustrating because I believe the pain points we have are mostly our own fault. Also, I’m just bad at break-ups.

    17. Observer*

      Of course it depends on the specifics of your contract, but if it’s ok by contract, an email is fine. You don’t have to be “brave” about it, just polite.

      Start your transition asap. And give them their 30 days.

      Why are you moving on?

    18. Beth Anne*

      I had to do this recently and we wrote a letter saying we no longer wanted to use their services. You need to have something in writing even if you just email the letter to someone.

    19. MissDissplaced*

      I’ve not had one this big, but generally I would give them at least 3 months. I would let the most senior account manager you work with know by phone first, and then follow in writing, using the language much as you stated indicating overatures for a smooth transition.

      Of course, if there was mismanagement or something more of an emergency situation, you could certainly exit sooner. It doesn’t sound like that’s your case though, so I would try to be fair on the exit.

  2. Anonymous Educator*

    Has anyone who’s worked in schools had a back-and-forth thing between working in schools and working in corporate? Where did you end up?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      I’ve been back and forth between for-profit corporate, non-profit schools & for-profit schools. I’m currently at a non-profit and will be for the next 8+ years I hope (Public Service Loan Forgiveness makes grad school debt manageable), but I can’t really see myself going back to corporate. The excellent work/life balance just isn’t worth giving up for me.

      That said, technology in education (even in my current, mostly online higher ed position) drives me absolutely batty, and sometimes I think of going back to a corporate job just so 21st century tech will be the norm again.

    2. Tea, please*

      I’ve been back and forth between non-profits and schools. For the time being, I’m happy being back in schools. Mainly because, in my area, the pay is better.

    3. Who the eff is Hank?*

      I worked in a non-profit related to a school for 4 years, then corporate for 5 years (1 year of which was at an education-related company), and now I’m going on year 3 at a non-profit school.

      Of all these places, I’ve enjoyed the non-profit school the most and intend to stay in this sector (though not necessarily at my current school). This job combines all the feel-goods of working at a nonprofit with the great health and vacation benefits of working at a school. The pay isn’t amazing and the office is small, but I actually have the best work-life balance I’ve ever had and the most supportive coworkers and supervisors.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’ve found the same, but I also haven’t worked in too many corporate environments, so I don’t have much to compare it with.

    4. Bird Person*

      I taught in community colleges and public schools, and now I work at an EdTech startup. I wouldn’t trade my school experience for anything, but I’m really happy where I am: our product really does make a difference for families and school systems, I’m introverted enough to prefer working in a smaller and less emotionally demanding environment, and I’m a good fit for startup-casual office culture. All in all, it was a good move for me.

    5. JV*

      I had a back-and-forth between private companies and unis (ISP, university, defence contractor, university, manufacturing company, sixth form college, and now back in the public sector but working in a different area (Patent Examining)

      Corporate is better paid but worse conditions. Public sector is great if your face fits but if it doesn’t then it can be hell. Entrenched bureaucracy and all.

  3. Anon anony*

    Co-workers who come into the office often ignore me and just direct conversation to my co-worker, “Sara.” Sara has been there longer, so maybe they just know each other better (I’ve only been there for 8 months.). Sara and I work together, but they’ll walk in and just make eye contact with her, even if I’m sitting right next to her.

    One woman came in, completely ignored that I was sitting right there and proceeded to put her stuff down on top of mine. I found it to be rude- even if you don’t like me for some reason, you still should act professional.

    I overheard another woman talking about how she doesn’t like me and how she used to work with “someone like me”- that was interesting because I came back and heard all of this! And the woman kept talking like I wasn’t there!! Then if I talk, she’ll roll her eyes and try to get away from me.

    I know I should let this go because I don’t know how to bring it up without sounding like I’m whining “they don’t like me” but I have never been in a workplace where co-workers were so hostile!

    Does anyone have any advice or similar experiences? Is there a way to find out why they hate me after only 8 months?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you know what it is they supposedly don’t like about you? Is this something they just do to all new people (a form of hazing)? Do they impose stereotypes based on the way you look or the pitch of your voice?

      1. Anon anony*

        I’m quiet and caucasian. (Some are not caucasian.) They also work in a different department than me. (I’m the librarian in a special library.) Other than that I don’t know.

        1. Clorinda*

          How’s your relationship with Sara herself? If she’s friendly and willing, she might be able to help you ease your way into the group. Eight months seems like a ridiculously long time for this to go on!

          1. You don't know me*

            I agree about getting in with an existing person in the group. I started a new job 4 months ago and everyone was very cautious around me but once one of the long timers decided I was ok, everyone seems to accept me.

      2. Anon anony*

        They’ve been like this since I’ve started though, so I think it’s just the way it is. I’m applying to other jobs and have had interviews.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If you get along with Sara, maybe you can ask her to start involving you in these conversations, if you should be involved. Something like:

      M: Hi, Sara. I have a question about the rice sculpture production schedule.
      Sara: Sure! Actually, Anon and I have it here. Anon, can you help M?

      Sure, M could still roll her eyes and keep talking to Sara, but polite persistence on your and Sara’s part makes M look completely loony if she persists.

      1. Anon anony*

        She is social, but has a big mouth so I don’t want her telling everyone. (They gossip about everyone and everything here!!)

        1. Logan*

          I have worked in places with a high number of gossipers (as opposed to where I am now – we talk about rumours, and speculate about upcoming plans, but that is waaaay different than gossiping about individuals in unhealthy ways). In my experience, gossipers only like gossipers, and I was ostracized when I didn’t join with them. I was thankfully on a short contract and had an escape, otherwise I don’t know what I would have done (although I later discovered that no one in the larger organisation liked the group, so if I had stayed longer then I would have got to know more people outside that group).

          1. Luna*

            I’ve had similar experiences too. Also as a quieter person who wasn’t participating in the gossip, that seemed to make things worse. I’ve had gossipers comment to me that they don’t like quiet people like me because they never know what I’m thinking. I guess they assume I’m thinking badly about them because all they do is talk shit about others? Not sure. But for whatever reason it makes them uncomfortable.

        2. neverjaunty*

          It sounds like you unfortunately just work with a lot of horrible people. The dislike almost certainly isn’t personal; you’re newer and therefore the most convenient piñata.

        3. Pollygrammer*

          I’m not sure her telling everyone would necessarily be a bad thing, especially if you frame it in a way that suggests you just really want to make friends with people and it’s making you sad that you can’t seem to.

          Also, maybe a candy dish on your desk?

        4. Blue*

          Could you keep it more general? Not, “Why does no one like me?” but “Any advice on how I might be able to better settle in and encourage people to seek me out on XYZ work matters?”

          1. Triumphant Fox*

            Why? People generally comment here with their specific situation. I don’t see the need to generalize all of them. Allison does that for them in her responses, but people’s posts are usually hyper-focused.

            1. Jessie the First (or second)*

              I think you’ve misunderstood. Blue isn’t telling the OP that she should phrase her question *here*, to us, more generally. Blue is suggesting that the OP ask Sara this generalized version of her question – a general question, rather than a “why does no one like me” question, because that way if Sara spreads/has a big mouth the way OP is worried about, Sara won’t be spreading anything gossipy or personal that would be awkward.

              1. Triumphant Fox*

                That makes a lot more sense! Agreed that framing the question to her about how to develop working relationships would be better than “Why does no one like me?!!”

          2. RB*

            Sometimes you just have to accept that you work in a very clique-y office or that there is a Mean Girls dynamic going on. It can take months or years for you to seem like one of the gang to the people who have been there longer. I’ve been through this. I just tried to ignore it as best I could because it wasn’t directly affecting my work.

    4. Kramerica Industries*

      I’m going to say that even if there’s a “rational” reason why they don’t like you, these women are clearly trying to make it obvious that they don’t like you. Don’t get sucked into their drama. You’re better than that.

      2. WellRed*

        That’s hard though, to spend a full day at work with people treating you like this.

      3. Kramerica Industries*

        Realistically, yes it absolutely sucks. I guess maybe it depends on the work culture? My workplace is generally pretty non-confrontational. So when I dealt with something similar (though nothing quite as rude!), someone gave me this advice: You have to have the strength to rise above. Don’t think that people don’t notice. You want people to continue to see you as hardworking and positive. If he/she’s as toxic as you think, you have to trust that she’s going to be her own downfall.

        Eventually, I escalated to my manager, but only when my toxic person refused to send me work/emails I needed for no good reason.

    5. Cruciatus*

      I wouldn’t let it go! I don’t have a good story that solved everything, but at my former employer 2 women (who were friends) decided to just ignore me one day. Stopped eating lunch with our usual group. Couldn’t say hi to me in the hallway. It was ridiculous and everyone who was friends with them told me “that’s just how X is.” (And you guys put up with it? WTF?) Fortunately X got another job and just recently the other apologized to me (because we both ended up at the same employer–you never know when you’ll meet again. She’s no longer friends with the other woman and realized how toxic she was).

      But I would just ask what I had done to offend them and be perfectly polite all the rest of the time so people realize the crazy is on them. I would also probably start documenting. You shouldn’t have to be in a work place like that. I dislike people but can suck it up and do my business with them with no one the wiser about my feelings. Good luck! This is even worse than my situation. At least they ignored me, not flat out told me all the reasons about their dislike.

    6. ZSD*

      Wow. The woman who put her stuff down on top of yours is incredibly rude.
      Do you have a good rapport with Sara? Can you ask her what’s going on? Or perhaps your supervisor? I don’t think it’s whiny to be worried about this! If your co-workers are refusing to work with or even acknowledge you, that will cause problems with the functioning of your office at some point.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        Maybe you could just swipe her stuff onto the floor and be like “Whoops! Didn’t see you place your stuff on mine!” Just a passive aggressive option for you :)

    8. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      The first two paragraphs I was thinking “Oh yeah, I’ve had that happen to me when I was new*” but the third paragraph is just odd.

      Is there someone you can talk to to try and find out what’s going on? Maybe Sara? I’d approach it with the curiosity angle… “Hey Sara, can I ask you about something? The other day when Marge was in here as I walked in the room she was saying something about how she doesn’t like me and that she’d worked with ‘someone like me’ in the past. Any idea what’s going on? Did I use her coffee cup, wear the same perfume as her MIL, or something else? I’m not sure what’s going on or why there would be this odd animosity”

      *I was new to one office that was undergoing renovations, so things were already in flux, then my new boss set me up in a cube. It turned out someone else had been squatting in this cube, so him and I spend the next 2 weeks moving each other’s crap into the next cube and getting grouchy at each other.

    9. only acting normal*

      My A-level maths teacher utterly despised one of my classmates. No idea why: he was a straight A student, tidily dressed, polite. Still she hated him on sight. Our only theory was that he reminded her of someone else who had earned her hatred.
      The best that could be said was she didn’t take it out on his grades, and it was only for 2 years.

      If anyone takes an irrational dislike to me (not saying I *couldn’t* earn it >:-), but I certainly try to be easy to get on with), I figure it’s all about them, nothing to do with me, and provided they’re not actively trying to sabotage me, I ignore any nonsense they direct my way.

      1. Susan Sto Helit*

        I still have this memory of being about 7 years old and sat in my classroom when the teacher came in to introduce a new girl. Introductions were done, she sat down in a free spot on the floor near me…then turned to me and hissed “I hate you”.

        I have no idea what I might have done in those 30 seconds between her first entering the classroom and her deciding she didn’t like me.

        1. only acting normal*

          That reminds me of the dinner lady who decided 8 yr old new-to-the-school me was to be reprimanded and belittled at every opportunity. I was an extremely well behaved kid so don’t know what her prolem was!

          1. froodle*

            Oh my glob same! I’m left handed and a dinner lady told tiny me that it i didn’t learn to eat with my knife and fork in the right hands, nobody would ever marry me because everyone would be embarrassed to eat with me in a restaurant. I was like seven, so my reaction was just confusion, but I look back on it and I’m like what the fuck lady.

      2. Pollygrammer*

        I had a boss who very cheerfully informed me that she didn’t like a new person in another department and was never going to, because her voice sounded a lot like boss’s hated sister-in-law. She told me like she thought I would find it cute and/or reasonable.

    10. Bea*

      I would document everything and let management know. OSHA covers bullying, they’re on the hook for letting people act like such assholes.

      They don’t have to like you but they can’t be shunning and talking about you.

    11. Lara*

      I don’t know how to handle the other issues, but if someone comes in and puts their stuff on top of yours, it is absolutely professional to say:

      “Jane, please move your papers from on top of mine, I need to access them.”

      She may well push back, but if she does she’s going to look terrible.

    12. NLMC*

      That sounds so childish on their parts and I’m sorry you are dealing with this. Could it have anything to do with who you replaced? Were they part of the group and then left on bad terms and they are for some reason taking that out on you?

      1. Anon anony*

        It’s a new position, but most of them have been there/worked together for 10, 15, 25 years.

    13. TootsNYC*

      Frankly, I would bring it up to your boss. I think you can describe the situation of walking into your office to hear someone directly talking about how they don’t like you, and then having them continue to complain about you even though it was clear you were right there.

      And then say, “They don’t have to like me. I want them to stop being overtly rude. I don’t know how to handle this to keep it from become worse, because saying something to them from me seems like it will backfire, as will it coming from you. But I would like some help in strategizing how to handle this.”

      Unless your boss is a total jerk, I guess.

      Oh, and other advice?

      I had something somewhat similar (not as bad–these people are HORRIBLE!!; mine was just one person)

      I became a suck-up. Just “blithely oblivious” to any chilliness, and I started sticking my head in to say hello in the morning, or making friendly comments directly to them, making a point to ask them if they want anything from the cafeteria since I’m going, etc.

      Just pretending that we were friendly. And then eventually she couldn’t keep up the chilliness.

      In your case, you’ve got a group. So maybe pick one person who isn’t Sara to “befriend” in this way.

      It’s OK to be fake, and to “manipulate” people this way. Call it tactical.

      1. Anon anony*

        I’ve tried this and some are nice, but it depends on who is around or with them. The one woman seems like she doesn’t want me to fit in- if I’m talking to someone, she has to butt in the convo and take over. It’s ridiculous and rude. I just needed a job…

        1. OhNo*

          Sounds like you know who the ringleader is of this particular brand of nastiness. If you want to stick it out here for a while, your best bet may be to make friends with the friendly ones while this person isn’t present, and continue friendly overtures to the others whenever she’s not around.

          If it’s possible, I’d say avoid the ringleader at all costs. She may be the source of the toxicity, or she may just be the worst example. Either way, it sounds like the rest of the folks are adjusting their behavior to mollify her. If that’s the case, anytime she is involved (or inserts herself) into a situation with you, they’re likely to default to mimicking her incredibly rude behavior to keep the peace with her.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Uh, this is awful.
      My bottom line is that they can hate me all they want. But if they f with my work that is a deal breaker. So watch, make sure you are getting the inputs you need to do your job. Do your job well and don’t let them take up too much space in your brain.
      Treat everyone fairly and politely. This is not an instant solution. You are 8 months in, if you do not see changes in the next 4 months seriously consider moving on. Don’t force yourself to work in a toxic environment.
      Sometimes you can win people like this over, by taking on Big Project and knocking it out of the park. Other times you can dilute their powerful nastiness by being a solutions person. That person who seems to have a special knack for remedying tough problems. On rare occasion a special circumstance can come up and you could be the one to save the day, in that moment the bullying is over.

      One last idea. I had a Toxic Person at work. It got to the point where I thought the situation was going to send me running out the door. I started documenting. I kept my record at home and I documented only the things that stood out in my mind that particular day, or else I could have written a 100 pages every day. I never did anything with the journal beyond my own use. I looked for patterns and tried to figure out ways of dealing with recurring comments or actions. An odd thing happened. I had been documenting for a few days and the BS died down. And it stayed down, until I stopped writing. Then it resumed. I have no clue what happened there. Did this person sense I was writing down things she said/did? Or did I act differently. more confident or more in control? I suspect I may have started walking a little taller and may have seemed more surefooted. I do know a cohort started wearing a wire (DO NOT DO THIS) and the nonsense stopped when ever they wore the recorder. It was interesting to try to figure out what was happening and why.

    15. nomorejibbajabba*

      It could be that one of them or one of their friends applied for the job you have. So in their mind you took an opportunity away from them or someone they know (maybe). I once had a frosty coworker who was very passive aggressive and it turned out that she had applied for the job I had. It would be nice if they could just be adults, but they sound petty and unpleasant. What the person said about gossipy people only liking other gossipy people is 100% correct. You can tell when you’ve been the subject of some hen fest because they can’t even look at you.

    16. Triple Anon*

      Two suggestions, having been there:

      1) Of you can talk to one of them alone, ask very nicely, “I was wondering, did I do something that bothered you? If so, I’m really sorry and I want to make things right.” That kind of thing. That gives them an opportunity to voice any concerns and get a fresh start, and it shows that at least you care.

      2) If you’re at all rusty on cultural differences, brush up on it! For example, having grown up in a predominantly African-American city, I learned that it’s easy to come across as rude because of different cultural norms. If you can, try to act like your co-workers or communicate in a way that bridges the gap.

    17. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      I had a co-worker who used to turn her back to me and perch on the edge of my desk to talk to my office mate. The temptation to poke her butt with a pencil was very strong. I settled for making sure every inch of my desk was covered with work. Then she came in and pushed some aside so she could perch and I said “Please don’t do that.” She stopped. Sometime you must be direct.

    18. Courageous cat*

      No but I’m in the same situation. I haven’t overheard anyone talking about it but I’m excluded frequently from events/conversations and where they’re warm to each other, they’re cold as ice to me. No clue. I get along so well with everyone else in the place except my department.

      It sounds kind of lame (to myself) to be like, “these people don’t like me so I’m finding another job” because it should be just a job and friendship shouldn’t enter into it – but I don’t care anymore, it’s unprofessional and it’s rude to not try to make an effort. I don’t get paid enough to deal with the discomfort it brings.

      1. Courageous cat*

        And what sucks is that I know when I put in my two-weeks notice, if I were to say it was because they obviously don’t like me, I can already tell they’d gaslight the hell out of me and be like “What are you talking about? That’s not true, we have nothing against you, you’re crazy, etc”. Because they haven’t overtly said “fuck you” to me, they probably think they’re being really sly about their indifference (at best) towards me.

        I’m so done with being the new person.

        1. Anon anony*

          This is what I hate- they ignore me, talk about me as if I’m not there, but then they laugh and joke with me. It’s abusive/bullying behavior and it isn’t right. I know they don’t like me- they’ve said it. So why not just ignore me? Why bother talking to me as if we’re friends?

        2. Mad Baggins*

          It’s unprofessional and immature to treat people as they have treated you. You are not wrong to want to be treated kindly at work! This should be basic adult stuff! As someone who was ostracized at a former workplace for reasons I didn’t understand, I hope you and Anon anony find better places where you are more welcome.

  4. Alternative Person*

    One of the ‘Super’ part timers at work is taking essentially the whole summer off to work another job (they’ll ‘graciously’ be coming in some evenings, AKA the time that needs the least coverage) and will be back as normal come Autumn.

    On one hand I’m happy to have them out of my hair for a while. On the other, we’re now in the hole for about 25 or so client facing hours a week, at a time when a lot of our staff are off anyway (high level manager doesn’t want FT staff, thinks we can run a decent ship with student part timers, but that’s another story). And they’re going to come back in, exactly as things were before. I don’t want to be harsh, but I’m a little irritated my manager authorized it. I get he wants people to be happy and stay, but the part timer took on a lot of responsibility, gets to drop it and then pick it back up without a missed step. Seems a little too much to me.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      Is there a reason you guys can’t hire a seasonal part time person to cover those hours for the summer?

      1. Alternative Person*

        Likely not for all those hours. This part timer has accumulated a lot of responsibility over the past few years, probably more than they really should have, due to bad management policies across the board and this person actively working to acquire hours/responsibility. Some of that can’t really be passed onto a temp or newbie.

    2. As Close As Breakfast*

      That is irritating. Does your manager have a plan for the responsibilities that the part timer will be ‘dropping’ for the summer? I mean, it’s kind of irritating either way, but my irritation would go way up if the plan was anything like “Alternative Person and other staff members will just pick it all up!”

      1. Alternative Person*

        The likely outcome is myself and the other FT/regular staff will have it reassigned to our schedules.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I recommend pushing as much of this work to your manager as possible. She created the problem, let her pick up the extra work.

          1. Alternative Person*

            I wish that was possible but the manager’s skill set is such that he can only do the very basic level of work we do.

            There’s also a different story about how the ‘Super’ part timer arrived at a time when work was desperately lacking even junior level staff (due to bad high level management policies, I was literally the last ‘new’ mid level FT hire recruited about five-six months after the ‘Super’ part timer was and at least two different managers wanted me to work at their branch).

            Prior to my being hired, she picked up a lot of client facing work because there were so few staff and she was willing to do all the extra work offered and that work never really got reassigned to skilled staff once things somewhat evened out because 1. she does work in a way that looks good (emphasis on looks but that’s yet another different story). 2. she was always happy to do the hours. So, on one hand, I can see the manager feeling some loyalty because she was a big help during a difficult time, but I really feel like the manager is doing a big disservice both to her and to the rest of the staff by letting her basically drop one job temporarily for another.

  5. 3's enough!*

    Remember the LW from a week or so ago that was asked for 5 references as part of an interview process? Well I was just asked for 8… EIGHT! They want 2 managers, 2 direct reports, 2 peers and 2 clients, which is nearly impossible because I can’t use anyone at my current place of work.

    1. Lucky*

      Wow, I am 15+ years into my career and I would be hard pressed to find 8 references of these types without tapping anyone at my current job. I just don’t keep in touch with that many former colleagues.

    2. SaraV*

      [Insert blinking gif here]
      Please tell me this is some type of government job? I’m having difficulty at the moment coming up with a job in the private sector where this would actually make sense.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is this a pretty high level position? I think this could be a reasonable ask if it is.

    5. 3's enough!*

      Non-governmental – it is at a consulting firm for the private sector. Not incredibly high up. The form may have come from the recruiter which I’m not sure make its better.
      AND I already had to spend a lot of my memorial day weekend working on a case study as part of the interview. #thisbetterbeworthit

      I think I’m just going to ‘do my best’ and submit as many as I can reasonably drum up.

      2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

        Oh, if it’s a recruiter, that might make more sense… theoretically, they do a reference check for you once, and then you can apply for as many jobs as you want and your references only get contacted that one time.

        The recruiting company is either *very* together or *very* not. No halfway there. Hopefully it is the former, but tbh its much more often the latter. I agree that the best you can do is the best you can do… maybe you can include some names from your current job with a note like “please do not contact until an offer is imminent; at that time, I’m happy to give you contact information”?

      3. Woodswoman*

        I think the fact that you’re working with a recruiter is the reason. I had the same experience for I job I ultimately got. I was stunned when I was asked for “six to eight” including people who had managed me, people that I had managed, and peers. I’ve been in the work world for many years so fortunately I was able to find six people because I no longer worked with them, and the seventh that was a co-worker had already told me they were job-hunting themselves.

        Your situation sounds more difficult with such specific quotas for each category and avoiding your current job. Can you talk with the recruiter about your challenges and see what else might work? Good luck!

        1. Safetykats*

          Yeah, this is easier when you’ve been working longer. One reason some people ask for so many references is that they are anticipating morph being able to get through to all of them. You can always give them as many as you are able to, and try to make sure the ones you provide are actually anticipating a call so that they respond.

      4. puzzld (I see there's a Puzzled here, I am not that Puzzled)*

        I sure wouldn’t be able to do it, but I understand the temptation to ask. We get so many people who either give unusable references (no, I can’t use your grandma, your sister, your Aunt May…), I’d rather not use your pastor or your parole officer, although I will if you insist, your major professor is a great reference — but only if he’s not on a two year research trip to Amundsen or otherwise out of touch. And now with so many people call screening / email white-listing etc… It’s really hard to do reference checks in a timely manner. We don’t like to leave a voice mail at a work number unless we are pretty sure doing so won’t “out” the applicant (what if they gave us their immediate supervisors name, but irrational grand boss gets wind of the search…)

        So anyway, checking references can take a ton of time and we are required to talk to at least two different references who are able to speak to the candidate qualifications for our specific work.

    6. You don't know me*

      I wouldn’t have been able to do this. I’d been at the same company for 10 years and had the same manager for the last 7 of those. My manager’s manager changed every year because it was a stepping stone role.

    8. Antilles*

      I think the reasoning behind it is this:
      1.) I want your managers, because they manage you and are familiar with your work.
      2.) I want a direct report to see how you are as a manager, since that’s pretty important for the staff underneath you..
      3.) I want your peers, because studies have shown that what your peers think of you often is different than how your managers think of you.
      4.) I want a client, because really, that’s who we’re here to serve.
      5.) But I want two of every type, just to get some second opinions.
      It’s dumb and impractical on many levels*, but I’m guessing that’s the logic.
      *Including, but not limited to, “most people can’t find that many references on short notice”, “way outside the norm”, “companies consider clients confidential”, “interviewer’s time”, “diminishing returns / eventually you’re just hearing the same stuff”.

      1. Mike C.*

        You forgot, “And I don’t respect the people I’m interviewing on a fundamental level”.

    9. LACPA*

      I’m interviewing for a job where the recruiter is asking for a similar number of references including former bosses, subordinates, audit partners, PE partners and others. Never seen that before

    10. anycat*

      ..what happens if you don’t have any direct reports? (i’m thinking its a manager role though)

      1. Brett*

        Or what happens if your current role is your first management role?
        (Especially if you have been in the role for a large number of years.)

    11. Jadelyn*

      Jaysus, that’s a lot to demand of someone. Is this for an executive-level position? I can kinda see it more in that case, since the hiring process for an executive should be more rigorous than for an entry-level role, but…good lord. I don’t think I could come up with all of that, especially if I weren’t open about my job search at my current employer.

    13. Former Usher*

      I interviewed for a job where I was initially asked for the phone numbers of three references, but then they later decided I instead needed to provide five reference (including two managers) who could complete an online evaluation of me. The online system actually requested seven references, but luckily I *only* needed five.

      That job turned out to be a complete disaster. And company policy was not to provide references for former employees!

    14. Falling Diphthong*

      • This is ridiculous.

      • I am trying to imagine the past disastrous hire that convinced them “If we had only talked to 8 people–7 is too few–then the 8th one would have spilled the beans.” I speculate that it involved a stunning amount of maple syrup and a moose.

    15. Gotham Bus Company*

      I suspect that the position is earmarked for one specific person who has all of that.

  6. Bones*

    I’m looking for advice. I had a job interview yesterday that went really well (yay!). The recruiters have sent me a link to a calipers personality assessment test thingie. I’ve never heard of one of these before, and most of the stuff I’ve found online seems to be dedicated to learning how to “cheat” the test, or complaining about how dumb they think it is. Does anyone have experience taking/evaluating these tests? What can I expect? How are they applied in the hiring process?

    1. Trillion*

      I made the mistake once of answering one question on the test with a “wrong” answer because I was concerned that TA would think I wasn’t being honest because I was answering everything too perfectly.

      Huge mistake. Cost me the job.

      Answer everything about ethics and behavior with what you think the most perfect answer is. Answer questions about your personality more honestly (but maybe not completely honestly if you know the answer is the “wrong” one. For instance “I’ve screamed at my boss on the sales floor.” Answer “Never.”
      “I prefer to work completely by myself and never talk to anyone” Even if that is true about you, don’t answer “Always” if you know the job doesn’t allow for that because it’s part of a team or customer facing.)

    2. Anna*

      As a cynic, I say that part of such a test is to see if you’re smart enough to know to answer the right answers. I am helping some young refugees try to get a job stocking shelves, and one of these tests was required. They don’t have the english to understand the nuances of obscure questions that boil down to “Will you steal?”, “Are you happy and easy to work with?” and “Will you rat out coworkers who steal?”

      I took the test for them. Yes, they adapt well to change and have a positive outlook. They survived the bombing of the city they grew up in. Also, have experience stocking shelves.

      1. Gatomon*

        Yes, these are really reading comprehension tests. No one would come out and say they’d steal, but the tests try to trick you into admitting it. I’ve unfortunately had to watch people fail because they didn’t really understand the question and I couldn’t explain it to them without giving away the answer, and I didn’t want to lose my job. So frustrating when you know the person can do the job and a dumb test blocks their path.

    3. Schnoodle*

      At OldJob, CEO liked this caliper test for final candidates. We actually rejected one based on it; though that is not actually legally advised. It can be used as a tool AFTER being hired but should never be used as a SCREENING tool.

      That said, I had to take it to get it and they were impressed with my answers which was hilarious because for some of the logic/math ones, I just googled it and got the answer. And like the others, on ethics I stayed pretty conservative, but did give a little spunk here or there. Just because.

      They are dumb, have been found to be useless, and used in court for discrimination cases.

      That said, doesn’t necessarily mean company or job will be bad, just that they made this one bad decision.

      I’d take it and if you advance just look out for more red flags.

      1. Bea W*

        I’ve applied to a couple jobs where they used another personality test as part of the screening. It was nothing but picking from a list of characteristics those which best described you. There were no ethics questions, or tests of knowledge. It was purely personality traits. I went through multiple rounds of interviews and the company was super excited after each one and told me if the final round went well they were prepared to offer quickly. The final round seemed to go really well, and I was certainly qualified to do the work, but after checking the last piece which was this stupid personality test they dropped me like a hot potato. They sent the recruiter a one line rejection that I did not have enough experience.

        The recruiter and I were baffled. I have 15 years of experience. They very quickly advanced me through multiple interview rounds. It was clearly a BS excuse for “you failed to match our personality profile”.

        I had to take the same test for another job but it was the next step in the process after the phone screen by the internal recruiter. No one wasted my time on multiple rounds of short notice interviews.

        Apparently my personality profile is not qualified for a job I’m really damn good at and love. Alrighty then! :P

        1. nomorejibbajabba*

          Wow! How can that not feel like a slap in the face? Well, they were idiots, weren’t they? They already met you, asked the relevant questions, you met multiple people at the company but they still don’t trust their own gut instincts and instead rely on some stupid off the shelf personality test? Many years ago I worked for a psychologist and he made a really good point that I have never forgotten– you can’t administer a diagnostic tool and then leave it to some untrained person to interpret results. Companies get sold on these dopey programs but they don’t have the smarts to effectively interpret the results so the computer decides which box to stick you in. Utterly useless. I was handed one of those tests a while ago when I applied to some weekend receptionist job at a real estate firm. I asked who was going to interpret the results and I was told it was the office manager (high school degree). I took the test piece of paper and walked right out the door.

        2. Susan K*

          My company uses that test (and it’s surprisingly accurate). They say that they use it in the hiring process for managers to see how candidates would fit with the rest of the management team, but they swear up and down that they do not use it as a basis for hiring decisions, which I find hard to believe considering that they give the test before they make the hiring decision.

    4. Woodswoman*

      I had to take one of these once for a job at a nonprofit as the final step after my interviews. There were no situational job-related questions about ethics, decision-making, etc. I’ve forgotten most of them. The one question I still remember asked whether if when I was driving if I stopped or slowed down at yellow lights. There was a section on figuring out the pattern of numbers in a sequence and filling in the blank for what should be the next number. There was also a comparable section about the pattern with shapes. I did fine on both of those. But then they had a weird thing where they inserted numbers into the shapes, and I was baffled by those and just guessed.

      I got the job. I asked HR if I could see the results of my test, and they said it was confidential. When I inquired about the test’s purpose to my manager, she told me it was to give them insights on how to best manage me. In retrospect, I should have asked HR if anyone ever got rejected based on that test.

      1. Traffic_Spiral*

        “The one question I still remember asked whether if when I was driving if I stopped or slowed down at yellow lights.”

        Isn’t the answer always “it depends how close I am to the intersection and whether there’s someone close behind me?”

    5. Mad Baggins*

      I work in a country where taking those kinds of tests is pretty common. They’re pretty ridiculous and a waste of time in my opinion, but I guess they screen out people who don’t see anything wrong with embezzlement or don’t have the language skills to conduct business in that language. I do think they could be discriminatory though, as in my experience they’re often timed and it’s hard to keep up as a non-native speaker (so when in doubt just answer in the middle…)

      The weirdest test I took asked a lot of medical questions like “Do you get headaches?” and “Do you frequently get diarrhea?” I…guess they were asking about if I will get sick from stress?? I really can’t imagine why my employer would need to know the details of my bowels…

  7. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    WAS OFFERED AN AMAZING NEW JOB THAT HAS BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR OVER SIX MONTHS and just had to yell about it somewhere since I don’t have a written offer letter yet and can’t yell about it to my coworkers until I do.

    Happy Friday and have a great weekend, y’all.

    7. Lucky*

      We should all take the rest of the day off to celebrate. (Okay, only Kalros should take the rest of the day off, but really only leave a bit early so she can save the table at happy hour and celebrate with her friends.)

    10. irene adler*

      I’m living vicariously through you. So be sure to update when the offer comes through. Gots to know how they take your giving notice at current job. Thanks.

  8. MMM*

    I’ve committed to a temporary summer job, but am still looking for a full-time position to begin after that. How should I mention in cover letters (or interviews?) that I wouldn’t be able to start until Sept 1 at the earliest? Or would it be better to just hold off applying to jobs until mid-July or so when the timeline of interviewing would align more closely with my availability

    1. ZSD*

      Honestly, with the speed that some hiring processes go, September 1 isn’t all that long from now. I wouldn’t mention your start date constraints in your cover letter. If you get an interview already in June, you might need to mention it in the interview, but if an interview isn’t until July, I wouldn’t even worry about mentioning it. If they offer you a position in July, I don’t think a September 1 start date will be an outrageous request for most employers.

      1. TonyTonyChopper*

        Actually, you have a great point that I didn’t consider. I’d leave it out of the cover letter and wait until at least you get a call from the recruiter or the interview (it’s up to you and what you feel comfortable with).

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        What ZSD said. Definitely send out those resumes now. If/When you get an interview in June or early July, you might mention that you couldn’t start until September (but only mention that if the subject comes up) by the time you go for the second or third interview and all that other stuff, it just might be September.

      3. MMM*

        Thanks, I’ll probably leave it out of cover letters and bring if up if I get interviews–I’ve had a couple recently that definitely were needing someone relatively immediately, and I’m so entry level that those type of jobs wouldn’t extend a start date for me. Even if I didn’t have this summer job I would need time to relocate, so I was kind of thinking/hoping that it wouldn’t be a huge deal to say Sept 1

    2. TonyTonyChopper*

      It depends on your industry, to be honest. When I recruited for a consulting firm, they were super flexible about start dates and would rather do the interview process (which was lengthy) earlier and then let you sit on an accepted offer for a few months until you could start.

      Other companies I’ve recruited for wouldn’t even consider you if you weren’t available to start immediately.

      I’d advise just putting in a sentence in your cover letter saying that while you are committed to a temp/contract role until Sept 1, the role seems like such a great opportunity for you because of XYZ reasons that you wanted to be considered if they are flexible with the start date. I’m sure there is someone who will word that better but that’s the gist.

      And I’d only apply for the really awesome “can’t pass up the opportunity” roles right now, and then if by late July you don’t have something in the works, you can start expanding your job search to roles that fall under the “would consider” list :)

      1. MMM*

        Thanks, I definitely am scaling it back to just really really great looking jobs for the time being, and figure I can ramp it up as the summer goes on to expand my search!

    3. Lucille B.*

      Hold off until the timeline for your industry. It’s very frustrating getting resumes for a position that I need to fill immediately or quickly if the applicants aren’t even available. That doesn’t do anyone any favors, and odds aren’t great that they will hold off on hiring anyone because you aren’t available.

      1. Yorick*

        But on the applicant side, there’s no telling if a job I apply to today will interview and hire by Sept. In a phone screen you can ask if they’re available at your targeted start date, and they should be honest about that.

        1. Lucille B.*

          For the most part I think you should still be able to go by your industry. If it’s a complete mystery, I agree – bring it up ASAP in your correspondence to make sure everyone is on the same page. I’ve posted ads in the past for “immediate hire” and received resumes from people moving to town in three months. Like most application dings, that comes down to reading comprehension and following directions.

      2. MMM*

        I’m very entry level and applying to a pretty wide variety of positions, so I’m not exactly sure what’s typical. From my past job hunting, I’ve gotten responses the day after my application and then up to months later…I’ll probably stick to leaving it out of my cover letter and bringing it up if I get an interview, especially if they say something in the interview that makes it clear we’re working on completely different timelines

    4. SWOinRecovery*

      Something else to think about, if the summer job is unrelated to your career goals and something like a summer camp counselor…don’t be afraid to consider quitting with 2 weeks notice to start a permanent job in your career field. I’m not saying you should plan on flaking. But some jobs, especially summer jobs, have plenty of turnover and reasonable bosses wouldn’t hold it against you. Now if it’s a temporary contract in or close to your field, I wouldn’t jump the gun, but would still apply in hopes of a Sept start.

    5. Safetykats*

      Definitely apply now. Almost nobody looking for college hires (I assume that’s your position) is still looking now for someone to start right after graduation – because that would be right now. Also, the process of reviewing resumes, scheduling interviews, and issuing offers for a full time job can easily take a couple of months. The right time to address when you can start is when they ask. (Typically, if you’re a strong candidate, the last question in the interview will be “If selected, when would you be available to start?”)

      However, if you get a great offer for full-time, permanent employment, and they really want you to start sooner than September 1, you should strongly consider doing so. I can’t imagine what temporary job would expect you to potentially lose out on permanent employment to work for them a few more weeks – but if that’s the way it worked, it would clearly be a bad decision. Usually prospective new employers should be respectful of your previous commitment, but sometimes they really do just need someone sooner. Answer the question about when you can start with the earliest date you could do so while working out your temp job, but be prepared to give notice early at the temp job if you have to do so.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      By having finks.

      Or, by having people who make it their business to tell tales on others that may or may not be true. So, good blackmail setups.

      Also, if someone gets divorced and it becomes public record that it is due to “alienation of affection” from an affair, then, out they go.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Reading that article and their announcement, it stresses that they want employees who live in accordance with the Bible. Given the broad range of sex-related behaviours in there (from apparent celibacy to polygamy), how are they going to interpret “living Biblically”?

            1. Anon for This*

              In my experience, organizations who go to these kinds of extremes have no compassion for the Dinahs among them. Unfortunately.

        2. Pollygrammer*

          “Living what we consider ‘biblically’ and ignoring the entire Old Testament.”

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            Except most of the people I meet who talk about Living Biblically seem far more Old Testamentarian and much less Love-Thy-Neighbor or Who-Among-You-Can-Cast-The-First-Stone.

        3. Anon for This*

          I have to roll my eyes any time that an organization talks about the importance of their employees living Biblically, but all they want to talk about is sex and alcohol. There is so much more to living Biblically than that. And different folks would interpret that statement in different ways.

          1. Kuododi*

            This puts me in mind of ages ago when my cousin (female) was in college for an engineering degree. My dad arranged for her to do a summer job at his well known company in his department. (He was designing washer/dryers at the time). This cousin is the “extra daughter” in our family and we’ve always had great relationship. Tangentially related she’s also quite lovely. Long story short….Dad took her out to dinner after work one pm and was spotted by one of the nosier members of their church. Before the end of the evening, Mom had taken multiple calls from church members who were so sad to hear Dad had been stepping out on her with another woman!!!!! Good grief!!!!

            1. Camellia*

              And probably didn’t/wouldn’t believe her explanation because where’s the fun in that?

              1. Kuododi*

                Of course not!!! It’s a great deal more fun to believe that my dad, who has been an active member of the church all his life would be stepping out with a ” cute young thing” than to actually keep.their busy body noses to themselves!!! GACK

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I often think it might be interesting to work in unemployment insurance and read all the reasons why people were fired/the appeals they file/etc.

    3. Lucky*

      You don’t. You use this rule to retaliate against others, especially single mothers, divorced women and anyone LGBTQ.

        1. Lady Russell's Turban*

          Is that retaliation? Per the organization’s religious beliefs, sex is reserved for marriage and marriage is available to everyone, at least theoretically. If you want sex badly enough, get married.

          For the record, I am not religious or married, nor do I care about the sex lives of consenting adults.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I wonder what they’d do about serial marriages – someone gets married right away so they can have sex, gets divorced a few months later, gets married again, etc. Technically, it’s not outside of marriage, but you couldn’t say that was “respectful of the institution” or the intent of the rule.

              1. Kathleen_A*

                Actually, the divorce rate among evangelicals (depending on how you define “evangelical”) may not be much different from the population at large, at least not in the U.S. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, “Evangelical” is really quite a broad term. The divorce rate among very active Christians of all varieties (and religiously active Jews) is indeed significantly lower than the population as a whole, but the key word there is “active,” not “evangelical.” But again, “evangelical” is a very broad term. There is no reasonable definition that I’m aware of that would make “about 0” accurate. :-)

                Apparently, conservative Christians who seldom go to church are the ones who are more likely to divorce. Not quite as likely as people with no religious affiliation, but their divorce rate is quite high, apparently.

                1. Parenthetically*

                  I mean, I grew up evangelical, so I’m familiar with all of this, I’m just responding to Jadelyn’s musing about serial marriage — the teaching (vs. lifestyle) of evangelicalism is very strongly anti divorce, so marrying and divorcing repeatedly for the purpose of getting to have sex would be contrary to every teaching of evangelicalism.

                  And yes, the stats about being an “active” participant vs. self-labeling as Christian or evangelical are pretty interesting!

    4. Writer*

      By penalizing unmarried women who get pregnant. I can’t imagine a way that this ends up being equally enforced for men and women.

      5. Camellia*

        Hmm, makes me wonder. If a single woman, certifiably virgin, conceived via sperm-donor-clinic…what would they make of that???

      6. Minocho*

        Ugh, yup. My grandma and grandpa were in high school, and she got pregnant. So they march her, and her alone, up to the front of the church to shame her. While grandpa, older by a year or so, sits with the rest of the congregation. Then they were forced to get married.

        She’s a horrible, bitter and destructive woman. But…I have SO much sympathy for that 16 year old she was.

        UGH.

    5. SoWeird*

      Maybe they employ sex-sniffing dogs? Or cats? I’ve heard that animals can tell these things.

    6. Emily S.*

      OMFG. Just… what absolute BS.

      The crazy thing is, because of the political situation currently, people can get away with this kind of ridiculousness.

    7. Lara*

      This sort of thing freaks me out, because it will get down to “I saw Lara with a man on Tuesday and she is unmarried,” Me: “Uh, yes, my brother.”

      And then you get into needing proof. Will I need to provide a picture and birth certificate for him? Written affidavit from our mother? Hair sample?

    8. Buckeye*

      This is probably an extreme reaction, but I immediately thought of those “declaration of purity” ceremonies in some super fundamentalist cultures in which teenage girls are examined by doctors to ensure that their hymens are still in tact and then publicly present a document signed by the doctor to their parents.

      Which is awful enough without imagining presenting one to your employer.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Holy hell. I’ve heard of purity ceremonies but never that particular subtype, with a doctor’s exam. That’s…horrifying on a whole other level. Weirdly specific promises to one’s father and “purity rings” are unsettling enough, but getting a doctor involved? Gah.

        1. Parenthetically*

          There have been some pretty notorious cases of virginity testing around the world — it’s illegal in some countries and Canadian docs, IIRC, have pledged not to do them.

          1. Buckeye*

            I’m also extremely skeptical of any doctor who would agree to such an examination. There are a lot of non-sexual reasons why a girl or woman might “fail” such a test.

        2. ElspethGC*

          A video went around maybe a year ago, maybe a bit more, of a woman presenting one of those purity documents to her father and her husband. At her wedding reception. I threw up in my mouth a little bit.

          Seriously, though, they don’t even work. You can’t tell virginity from looking at a hymen, because they’re not weird solid surfaces that ‘break’, they either stretch or tear a tiny bit, and the latter can happen from horse-riding or going on rope swings or getting out the bath. (I know someone for each one of those categories.) It’s probably a money-maker for the doctors that do them, though, because I suspect that some men in those circles refuse to get married without them,

          1. Clueless*

            As a woman in her late twenties, I am super embarrassed to admit that I didn’t know until recently that there are different “types” of hymen, and that depending on the person, they can look and function differently. Can we start a hashtag for things that we should have learned in sex ed, but didn’t?

    9. Anon for This*

      I am a part time pastor in a Christian church, and I also have full time employment in a completely secular setting.

      From a pastoral standpoint, I am finding myself wanting to comment on what I perceive to be poor theology and a lack of grace from this organization. I also wonder if, like a sickening number of Christian organizations, that they will police this, but not folks who sexually abuse, assault, or harass others who might be working in their organization. But this is not the place to have a theological debate, so I’m trying to really squelch that part of my response.

      From a normal, professional standpoint, I have no idea how this would be monitored. It sounds like it would require a ridiculous amount of snooping and/or gossip-mongering. I would not sign that statement if I were an employee, and I would leave ASAP.

      1. C*

        I would just like to say that I appreciate your pastoral standpoint on this. I respect you for not going into it here, but I think we need to hear more of your view from a theological perspective in the world in general. Thank you.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        I very much agree with Anon for This. It is so unpoliceable (if that’s a word) that I suspect it’s being done more for the look of the thing than out of any expectation that it’s going to actually modify anyone’s behavior. I mean, I guess it would give them some sort of basis for terminating anyone who does something flagrantly out-of-line (from their point of view), but that’s really it.

        It’s just…PR, really, and pretty icky and un-Christian PR at that (speaking as an elder in a mainstream Christian church).

    10. Kittymommy*

      When I went to grad school the college across the street had a policy like this. Like my school’s no alcohol policy, it was honor system. I dont think I ever heard about anyone being disciplined for it though I have no doubt it was broken.

    11. Antilles*

      You monitor it as follows:
      1.) Being too involved in your employees’ lives and carefully analyzing everything they say for any hint they’re violating the policy.
      2.) Encouraging employees to report any suspected violations of others.
      3.) Repeatedly reminding employees about the need to self-report violations.
      4.) Making all sorts of assumptions.

    12. Mike C.*

      By punishing women when they get pregnant. That’s how it’s going to be enforced.

    13. Maddie Mad*

      I turned down one job because it was required for employees to attend Scientology classes.

      No, I’m not kidding.
      No, I didn’t know the business was owned by Scientologists when I applied. I’m sick I ever gave them money before that (I applied because I liked the place and had spent a lot of money there).

      I think that is ridiculous, personally and would never take a job somewhere that required that, even if it WAS in my religion.

    14. CeleryStalk*

      Chastity belts and saltpeter. It’s not the only way, but if it was good enough in the dark ages.

    15. SWOinRecovery*

      BYU almost lost it’s AFROTC detachment over something similar. Looks like their solution has been to ignore the problem, but I was glad to see the Colonel stand up to BYU. Here’s the gist of the conflict:

      “BYU requires that all faculty, staff and employees sign and abide by its Honor Code, which requires abstinence from tobacco, alcohol and coffee, among other things.

      “I told the (university) president in an interview that I would happily abide by the Honor Code on campus, in uniform and on duty, but if I wanted to have a cup of coffee at my house they said, ‘No, that’s not acceptable,’” BYU Air Force ROTC commander Col. Timothy Hogan said.

      BYU has one-year limited private exclusions for certain visiting professors. Hogan’s position, however, is a three-year assignment, and the university did not accept his waiver, according to Hogan.”

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Who am I thinking of… was it Henry Ford who used to go to employee’s homes to see their living arraignments?

      For the original link, to me this is such a distortion of the point of the Bible that I can’t even think of this place as a religious org.

    17. The Person from the Resume*

      I get you. I have a weird admiration for Chick-fil-A for putting their money where their beliefs are and being closed on Sunday. OTOH I don’t eat there because of their anti-LGBTQ discriminations.

      Let us all note though this is the American Bible Society and the rule isn’t to live biblically, but to “abstain from sex outside marriage.” Realistically they’re going to discriminate against people who can get caught – women who get pregnant outside marriage, queer people openly dating, and unmarried women and men cohabitating.

      A hetero unmarried couple can be having sex all the time, but will be assumed not to be unless caught, and even then the guy could deny it but a pregnant unmarried woman cannot.

    18. ..Kat..*

      Based on experience, it is only a matter of time before a high level male church official is caught with his pants down….

    19. deesse877*

      Late, but possibly relevant: in my (limited, outsider) experience, policies like this aren’t uncommon in Evangelical organizations that exist to proselytize, and in Evangelical colleges. I was surprised the ABS thing even got traction as a news story–maybe just because they’re in downtown Philly.

      As for how it’s enforced…I mean, plenty of people who work for the organization are likely to believe in the rule, whatever their actual behavior, so there’s self-policing (like, A LOT of self-policing), and people may also be asked to sign an attestation or similar document. And for those who don’t believe, or who don’t agree with the theology, or whatever, it works pretty much like getting fired by Coke for bringing a Pepsi bottle onto the premises. Your transgression becomes known and you’re out. In the few cases I know directly, “transgression” meant being proven to share a home with someone you’re not married to, or being politically active in ways inconsistent with the organization’s principles.

      Functionally, the burden does indeed fall heavier on women and LGBT people, and the whole thing probably signals a culture crisis in the organization; in one university case I am familiar with, a board of trustees started rigidly enforcing an existing (previously often ignored) policy once LGBT rights became a focus of student activism. It was very basic “don’t bash, please” activism, but the rule-makers were apparently blindsided by this, and reacted with paranoia. After a decade of continued opposition, and probably some turnover, the board reversed course.

      In short, this isn’t that weird of a policy within its cultural context, and its sudden imposition by a big organization is more likely a sign of weakness and division at the top, and activism at the bottom, than of “Handmaid’s Tale”-ism.

  10. Jabes*

    Grrr. Keep getting looped in on people’s frustrations that are (and they acknowledge) not my problem and not my fault. Well, then stop telling me about it and deal with it yourself!

    One of my service providers referred a case to one of her coworkers. I think neither of them have time to really deal with it. But they’re both pissed with each other for trying to stick them with it, and I’m caught in the crossfire. Can I tell them somehow to figure it out? That one way or another this is one of their responsibility?

    1. Lucky*

      If you have a friendly relationship, you might ask one or the other “do you want advice on solving this situation or do you just want to vent?” If they say the former, you’re free to give advice (“have you tried talking to B to see if you two can split the responsibility for teapot maintenance?”) If they say the latter, you could say “I understand that’s frustrating, but it really brings me down to hear all of this negativity when there’s nothing I can do about it.” or just listen and nod.

    2. Seriously?*

      The only thing I can think of is to loop in the manager and ask them to determine whose job it is.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have found it pretty effective to say, “You have told me about this before… what steps can you start taking today to fix this problem?”

  11. You don't know me*

    Could someone tell me how to go about doing the RSS feed thing so I can see replies to my comments?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t know how, but wanted to give you a heads up that it you’ll get ALL comments, not just replies to yours.

    2. Magee*

      When I want to see if someone has replied to my comments, I just revisit the page periodically (or refresh the page) and do a search by my user name (ctrl + f on internet explorer). That way I can quickly search to see if anyone has responded.
      Victoria has a good point that if you click on “subscribe to all comments on this post by RSS” you will get a notification for all comments, not just responses to your comment.

          1. I am who I am*

            On my phone, you type the search into the address bar, and scroll to the bottom of the results where there’s an “on this page” section

            1. Jemima Bond*

              Oh dear that doesn’t seem to work for me – typing something in the address bar just Googles it.

          2. Cheshire Cat*

            Go to the icon where you can bookmark the page & scroll over to the right until you see the Find on page button. It’s pretty well hidden.

      2. You don't know me*

        Thanks! I’m not wanting all comments so I’m glad you let me know about that. I had no idea ctrl f worked on web pages. I will definitely be using that instead!

    3. mediumofballpoint*

      I really wish there was a better commenting system here. The lack of threading and updates is really frustrating.

    4. Kuododi*

      I don’t know what to tell you… I tried clicking on the link to subscribe to the RSS link and got a page full of computer jibber/jabber!!! Of course, I typically use my phone to follow this website so it may be nothing more than some sort of nonsense with my phone. Good luck!!!

  12. seller of teapots*

    It’s my first day in my new role! In this promotion, I now come into the office 4x a week, after working from home the past 5 years. It’s a big adjustment–working in an office, the new responsibilities, but I’m really excited about it.Change feels good.

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      Good luck with office culture stuff. Good luck in the new job in general, too, of course!

  13. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    I’m doing my apprasial paperwork this afternoon, does anyone have any good ideas for goals or things to improve on? I’m a junior manager in a project admin role to narrow suggestions slightly!

    1. Knotty Ferret*

      Questions I use for my goals:
      What do I enjoy about what I’m doing that I could learn more about? (classes, sitting with a knowledgeable coworker, or personal research).
      What do I think would really improve the way this function works? (do you need better workflows, a checklist, templates for common issues, or maybe a whole new system?)
      Where does my boss think I could improve?

      Also, I had a previous supervisor suggest I use “look into the viability of” when I was uncertain if I really wanted to take on a goal. This still involved doing a certain amount of research, but didn’t bind me to something when it turned out it was either not applicable or impossible to get buy-in from management/coworkers. Not all supervisors feel this type of thing is sufficient for a goal, so your mileage may vary.

    2. SansaStark*

      My company really likes to see a goal of taking a professional development class, so is there some sort of project management class or managing multiple projects or something like that? Also, this is where I stick anything that *I* want to do. For example, I’m also in a junior role and my company generally doesn’t send junior people to conferences; however, I put in my goals that I wanted to attend a national conference in my industry. Since it was signed off by my boss, boss’s boss, etc., they couldn’t really ‘fight’ it when I submitted the request for funds.

    3. Emmie*

      Do you also manage people? I like make growing their skills, or cross-training in one thing as one of my goals.

    4. blue canary*

      What about “timeliness of deliverables” or “increase number of outreach events/client touches/whatever by X%”? Or professional development/learning related goals, like “take X training” or “educate myself on [relevant subject]”?

    5. Robin Sparkles*

      Do you have any certifications? I have the PMP and use that as a goal to keep up with that certification (not required in my job but a nice to have). I also look at our organization’s strategic plan and looked for one that I could make specific to me and my department goal and add that. My boss loves that because not many people think of tying a personal goal to an organizational one. Make sure it’s feasible first of course. And over the course of the year – make sure to listen to goals that your department may need to achieve – it’s good to keep that in mind and make a goal from that too.

  14. Kramerica Industries*

    I have a coworker who seems to do a pretty solid job in general, except on difficult or tedious tasks. I discovered recently that our balance sheets weren’t archived properly, now I have to go in and correct the errors. I noticed that he doesn’t ask for help or will downplay how much work he’s putting in. Because of this, my group never checked up on the balance sheets because we trusted they were being done properly.

    He complained about maintaining balance sheets before, but I thought it was just venting, not an indication that work wasn’t being done properly. We report into the same manager – can I ask my manager if she can provide him with better coaching on why it’s important to constructively ask for help? I think it would help him and our group if there are issues in the future.

    1. Jack Russell Terrier*

      Are you saying all the archived balance sheets were improperly archived – so this is a following procedure situation? Or are there some that are improperly archived but most are correctly done so it’s more of an attention to detail situation?

      At any rate – yes, I think having a manager talk about the importance of everyone asking for help is … helpful. It helps avoid situations like this.

    2. Artemesia*

      Why do YOU need to go in and correct the errors? Unless he has to do this tedious job, he will continue to make errors and make you his minion.

      1. Temperance*

        Right?! This is totally the work version of dudes who somehow mess up the laundry so they aren’t asked to do it again. Hell to the no.

      2. Kramerica Industries*

        He was promoted into another role within our department where he doesn’t deal with balance sheets anymore. Guess who got his old role and discovered all the errors after!

        1. Blue*

          You still report to the same person, though? I’m going to second Lil Fidget, below – stick with, “These are the errors I’ve found.” I think you can even add, “I’m concerned that he never asked me questions to clarify the process,” because really…what if that’s not the only process he was messing up? Do you need to go check everything else now to see if he either blustered his way through or incorrectly thought he knew what he was doing up to this point?

        2. Bea*

          Oh sweet baby Jesus…you’re living my life every time I’ve taken a job.

          I don’t know how anyone who is bad at tedious tasks are in accounting or records management. At least you caught it internally.

          1. Quiltrrrr*

            I have seen plenty of people in records management who are bad at tedious tasks. It doesn’t work out well, and I usually ended up fixing their mistakes.

    3. Temperance*

      Wait, why do YOU have to correct the errors? I think you should talk to your boss about it, and ask her about having your colleague fix it. You aren’t his personal secretary.

    4. Lil Fidget*

      I think it’s best not to insert yourself into “why” the balance sheets are wrong or what the right coaching would be, and just focus on the facts – which you can absolutely bring to the attention of people above you. The archived sheets are wrong. It’s important to business practice that they be correct.

      1. TootsNYC*

        You can also supply the factual feedback that he never asked any of the people who might have been able to coach him, people whose expertise or ability he was aware of.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I might be misunderstanding the situation, but it’s not clear to me how the errors occurred – maybe he thought it was being done correctly so he didn’t seek assistance, maybe he deliberately skipped something because he didn’t think it was important, maybe he was pulled into another process and this got lost in the transition – I just think if OP doesn’t know either, they might not want to speculate on that side of it.

      2. SWOinRecovery*

        +1. I would frame it as, “X amount of spreadsheets have errors. It will probably take X amount of time to go through and fix them all. Do you want me to do the correcting, spread it among the team, or have coworker fix his mistakes?” This keeps you from asking about things outside of your lane while alerting your boss to look into coworker’s other work and reason for failing at the balance sheets for so long.

  15. Anonymous404*

    Hi! First time poster, log time lurker. I’ve been at my company for exactly 1 year as of today and find myself bored, underpaid with no benefits. This is my first salaries job out of college. I have an interview next Wednesday with a job that would almost double my salary with benefits. How would I answer the question why are you leaving your current position? I love what I do but I’m not challenged enough and I don’t have any work to do a lot of the times (my boss knows this and refuses to give up control). I want to learn and grow but I feel like I haven’t been at this job long enough to say I am looking for more opportunities (even though that’s exactly it). Thoughts and/or advice please and thank you!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think saying that you’ve asked for additional opportunities and been denied is a perfectly acceptable explanation.

      1. Tipcat*

        I’m not sure about “denied.” It could sound like there was a good reason for the denial. Maybe “none were available”?

    2. Buffy*

      You can even go vaguer and say the new position “better aligns with my career path”.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I also think it would be fair to mention that you are seeking a position that offers benefits, and then immediately explain what it is about THIS job that appeals to you above all others.

    4. irene adler*

      Yes, you have been at current job long enough to justify seeking new opportunities. The other comments are good; just don’t say anything about the not having any work to do. You’ve acquired all the knowledge there is at this job/position and you are seeking an opportunity where you can learn and grow with the position.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Yep, you can say, I would like move of a challenge; I feel like I’ve learned what I can from this job, and contributed as much as I can, and I’m ready to move to something with a quicker pace, more challenges, and an opportunity to grow in my professional knowledge.

        Bonus points if you can point to things the new job will have that the old job doesn’t (“would like to work with your larger organization to learn more than my smaller organization can provide” or something).

        You want the bulk of the convo/focus to be on the new job and the skills you offer.
        You can keep the “why I’m leaving” part really, really short.

        I was once asked, and I said, “I’ve been there 12 years, it’s time for something new.”
        You don’t have 12 years, but you have enough time at the beginning of your career. “It’s time for something new.” It’s time for something more challenging. (Who doesn’t want to hire someone who wants a challenge?) Just don’t spend a lot of time on it.

    5. ExcelJedi*

      Try concentrating on why THIS job is so interesting. Something like, “I’ve learned a lot in my current job, but I’ve always been really interested in a career in teapot design, not teapot manufacturing. I think the role at your company is perfect because…..”

      Make it less about wanting to jump ship and more about this being the right opportunity for you.

    6. You don't know me*

      I think stating I love what I do but I’m not challenged enough is a good start. Then explain what type of opportunities you are looking for and why you’d be a good fit for them.

      1. On Fire*

        Agreed. Years ago I was job hunting and had an interview. The day before the interview, I was chatting with a professional contact who was a big muckety-muck in a big field. He asked me why I was looking for a new job, and I said, “I’m looking for more of a challenge. I’m good at what I do, but I can be better. I’m looking for something that will let me expand.”

        He looked absolutely thrilled and said, “Say that in your interview. Tell them that.”

        I did. They offered me the job. (It wasn’t enough money for what it would have done to my commute, so I ended up not taking it, but it was still a good answer.)

    7. Lucky*

      “While I’ve learned a lot in this position, after a year I find that I am no longer challenged and there isn’t any room to grow my skills in the organization.” Message being: 1. I am ready for challenges and 2. I want to grow my skills. Good luck.

    8. ContentWrangler*

      I think you could still say you’re looking for new challenges. It was your first position after college so you were still figuring things out. But this year has now given you a better understanding of what kind of work you want to do and what kind of environment you prefer. Since you have problems with your boss not giving you enough work, maybe say you’re looking for more collaboration, a faster pace, simply more to do because you prefer to keep busy.

    9. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Actually I think you are in a good spot to be looking for the next job. I think it’s pretty typical to have shorter 1-2 year tenures in your first couple of jobs out of school. Prospective employers will not think anything of this.

      As a HM I wouldn’t think twice if you said you were looking for new opportunities. Play up the things you accomplished and what you learned at your current job, and say something about the structure not being conducive to continued growth. (this is true, the structure being your boss).

    10. Beth*

      I’d also note that there seems to be a lack of work and you’re looking for something more fast-paced.

      1. Curious Cat*

        I maybe would leave out the lack of work (would make me think was there REALLY a lack of work or did OP not taking initiative to get more work and more opportunities? Obviously I believe OP here, but as an interviewer I’d be skeptical), but definitely keep in looking for a fast-paced environment.

    11. Schnoodle*

      Exactly what you said, maybe with more finesse. Don’t say you got bored quickly because that’s not going to come off well, but say you’ve outgrown the job and its responsibilities. You’ve learned and grown, and ready for a new challenge.

    12. publicista*

      I think all the things you mentioned can be said, it’s just all in how you phrase them. You could try:

      “There’s limited room for growth/advancement at my current company.”
      “I’m looking for something a bit more challenging.”
      “Quite frankly, there isn’t a whole lot of work to go around at my current company, and I like to be productive.”

    13. Lara*

      I think “I’m looking for a more challenging role that will fully use my skillset.” is fine

    14. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I … don’t love any of the suggested answers. If you say you’re looking for new challenges after a year, you’re going to run into this problem:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/10/can-you-say-youre-looking-for-a-new-job-because-you-want-a-new-challenge.html

      … especially since you’re only a year out of school.

      And most of the other suggested language sounds vague enough that a good interviewer is going to press for details.

      I would go with something like, “I’m looking for something that will keep me busy and this job is a bit slower paced. I’ve realized that I like faster-paced environments, and I’m excited about the opportunity to X and Y.”

      1. Washi*

        I know you can’t really refer to the pay or benefits, but this is one of the times when I really wish it wer acceptable to say “I enjoy my job, but it has no benefits. This position would allow me to continue doing work that I love while also getting health insurance.”

        (And as an interviewer, as long as it was clear that that wasn’t the ONLY reason someone wanted the job, that would be fine with me. No benefits sucks, and is also unusual in enough in most salaried white-collar jobs that it would make perfect sense as a reason to leave.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh, I skipped right over that part. It’s totally fine to say, “I really like the work, but the job has no benefits so it’s not sustainable for me long-term.” Seriously, it’s 100% fine to say that.

          1. Kathleen_A*

            If you need more confirmation than Alison’s (you shouldn’t, of course, but just in case you do), you *absolutely* can say that getting a job with benefits is important to you. Anyone who would reject you for this reason is either an incredibly clueless person who you do not want to work for or an employer who doesn’t offer benefits, who you also don’t want to work for. Either way, this would be an excellent way of dodging either of those particular bullets.

          2. Snazzy Hat*

            During the phone interview for my current job, the HR person asked what my salary range was. I capped it at what I was making at the time as an independent contractor. HR was taken aback and informed me their rate was much lower. I replied, “oh, well that’s what I was making as a temp, so that’s fine too.” Then it hit me: I would get benefits out the wazoo with this new job. I brought that up in my first in-person interview, wording it like, “the pay rate is good, especially since it comes with benefits.”

            I initially thought, “well I know I can live off that income, so yeah, whatever,” and it turned into “I can definitely live off that income and that health care and that dental care and that vacation time!”

    15. Anynomous404*

      Thank you Alison and everyone else! I had read the article Alison linked which is why I thought I should come on today’s thread and ask. My only concern is about saying the opportunity part of Alison’s response, since this new position is almost exactly the same as my current one, just with a lot better pay + benefits. I would love to go do something larger scale in the long term, but most of those positions require 2-3 years of experience in the field.

      1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        Maybe leave out the opportunity part since you are struggling with it and go with something like, “while I love the work I’m doing, it’s a slow paced environment with a lot of down time. I’m really looking for something where I can do what I’m doing now, but higher volume.”

    16. Jadelyn*

      “It’s been made clear that there is no room for growth in my role at this company, so I’m looking for somewhere that will allow me to learn and grow and continue to challenge myself over time.” I’ve used something like that before – I work in a small HR department and everyone is Very Entrenched so there really isn’t much room to move up unless you can convince the CEO (good freaking luck) that your existing role needs to change or that the new role you want is critically necessary. So I explained to the interviewer that as much as I like my work and my company, the HR team is very static and doesn’t offer opportunity for continuing development or advancement. It went over just fine.

    17. Brett*

      One year is plenty of time when combined with this being your first salaried job out of college. It is well understood that people often take first jobs that underutilize their abilities and have limited growth potential.
      (Because, really, most of your growth at that stage is in getting workplace experience and in learning workplace norms, and not so much in getting new technical skills.)

      1. Brett*

        You might want to just frame the question back on the particular role instead of on your current role.
        Not so much why you want to leave your current role, but why the role you are applying for is more appealing.

        It is not that you are underutilized and your growth is limited. It is that the new role is a better match for your skills and has a higher ceiling on your growth and development. (I would assume has more responsibilities too, which you could also add in.) The higher ceiling is important, because it shows that you would have reason to be in the new role a lot longer than one year.

    18. Anynomous404*

      Thank you Everyone!I truly appreciate all of the advice here and all of your responses! I have been stressing out about it and now I feel better. Fingers crossed I get the new job (which means I can move out of my parents house!)

  16. MechanicalPencil*

    My direct supervisor is going on vacation for an extended period so is parceling off various tasks to my small team. I’ve suddenly become in charge of some major projects (or important ones?) and am the point of contact for outside vendors and on her OOO. It’s a weird feeling knowing that she’s confident enough in me to handle it all, and yet it’s not? I’m the most logical person to be handling some of these items, but I’m used to one of the other team members sort of handling things and being that go-to. It’s just been a very odd week, and I’m really wanting to ensure that I handle the newer responsibilities well.

    1. Emmie*

      Congratulations! Your manager trusts and values you. That you’re also concerned about doing well is another vote of confidence in you.

    2. Zidy*

      Gratz! Being left as point of contact is definitely a daunting feeling. If it’ll help (and it’s not too late), talk to your boss about what exactly she expects from you while she’s out. I know my boss tends to put me as point of contact in his OOO and/or projects not because he honestly expects me to handle everything, but because I’m going to know my team better than anyone outside of our department and he trusts me to reach out to the rest of my team to get help and/or loop in the most appropriate person. Assuming she’s reasonable, she’s probably expecting the same thing from you – if another team member makes more sense to answer a question or handle a particular task, hand it off to them. Your focus is just to make sure things don’t get dropped just because your boss is out of the office.

  17. Emma*

    Got contacted on LinkedIn about a position that looks perfect for me and sent in my application last night! Yay!

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      Sending “I have the perfect job for me” vibes to you! In the year I’ve had this job, I’ve never woken up thinking “ugh, I don’t wanna go to work today” or anything like that. Sure, I’ve had “mehhh, I don’t wanna get out of bed” days, but that’s because I like sleeping and my bed is comfy.

  18. The Original K.*

    Feeling grumpy about a job search thing. I had three interviews with a company. The day after my last one, HR called and told me that everyone involved thought it went really well and they loved me. She then asked if there was any wiggle room on the salary I’d put down on the application. My heart started to sink. I said no, that the range I’d listed was well within market value for the role, industry, and my skills and experience, and asked what salary they were targeting. Turns out the top of their range was $5K below the bottom of mine. They wouldn’t budge, so that was that.

    I was really annoyed. There were plenty of opportunities for them to weed me out if they thought I cost too much – they could have declined to interview me at all once they saw the salary I wanted.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      And this is why the taboo of discussing salary early is so ridiculous. You both wasted so much time and energy on this process.

      1. The Original K.*

        Yes! The process took six weeks. And HR knew what salary I wanted the whole time – the HR person referenced my application during this conversation. There was no phone screen with HR – the first interview was with the hiring manager, though the HR person set that (& the other interviews) up. And the duties really don’t align with the salary they’re seeking , so there were no red flags to me when I listed my target salary.

        In a previous search years ago, I applied for a position. In the initial phone screen with HR, she asked me what salary I was targeting. I told her. She was like ” … How low are you willing to go?” I repeated the salary range I’d given her. We determined that the role was too junior for me and parted ways amicably. Only about 20 minutes invested on either side. That’s how it should go. (Really, companies should just list the salary in the job description.)

        1. neverjaunty*

          In other words, they were hoping at the end of the process you’d be invested and they could talk you into less money. Jerks.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Sorry, that was re the original commenter, not the folks who sensibly determined it wasn’t a match!

          2. The New Wanderer*

            “Well, I need $X to pay rent, utilities, and eat, but for you guys, I’ll starve!”

          3. LovecraftInDC*

            It could very well be that, but it could also be that they were trying (internally) to get that amount increased, and had failed.

        3. Lil Fidget*

          This has happened to me so often that I’m suspicious it’s a strategy companies employ. They hope you will get invested, and then they deduct 5K from your desired salary (which of course they required you to supply up front) and hope you’ll take it. As Mickey says though, it’s equally likely that they have an also-descent applicant that is less money.

      3. Grouchy 2 cents*

        Honestly I don’t understand why they don’t post it along with the job posting. Saves everyone time. I’m assuming they just want to low ball everyone and they can’t do that if they specify a range beforehand.

        1. LovecraftInDC*

          I think that’s part of it. Certainly as an organization, they want to get the best return for their money (and obviously there are also companies that want to lowball everybody). But I also think it’s because they’re willing to go higher or lower based on the applicant. For example, assuming everything goes right in the next couple weeks, I may be hiring my replacement sometime in the next month. Depending on their level of experience, which I’d be flexible on for the person with the right skills, the person we pick could be hired at any one of four different salary bands, whose midpoints stretch from $52k to $85k.

          If we posted the job with those ranges listed, we’d get a huge number of applicants deeply disappointed and angry that we were offering them more than $30k less than we were willing to for a different person. On the other hand, if we just listed the lowest salary band (which is where we will most likely hire), we’d be losing out on people self-selecting out who could bring a LOT of value to our team.

    2. Oxford Coma*

      That sucks, I’m sorry.

      Document, document, document. (Glassdoor, Glassdoor, Glassdoor.)

    3. NacSacJack*

      I was casually looking at contract position recently and I was floored. I make more per hour than these contract positions. Why would I leave my current job to take a pay cut just in base salary AND lose benefits. SMH.

  19. Meghan Trainer*

    This week’s post about a coworker developing a British accent made me wonder, what is the strangest behavior or habit you’ve witnessed at work?

    Here’s mine: I used to work with a woman who was in her early forties and still lived with her parents. Nothing wrong with that. However, she would go home and tell her parents ALL about her coworkers. AND THEN TELL US.

    Her: Yeah, I was telling dad last night about that phone call you handled yesterday. He said you should have blah blah blah.

    Me: *WTF*

    Her: I told mom that your wedding is only a few weeks away. How exciting!

    Me: *dies*

    I was also terribly annoyed that she wouldn’t say “my mom” or “my dad.” Nope. Just “mom.” Just “dad.”

    1. Trillion*

      Wait, is there a difference between “mom” and “my mom”? I’m not understanding.

      1. Tired Scientist*

        Yes, when you hear it, it sounds odd. Normally you say “my mom” in conversation unless you are speaking with your siblings, right?

      2. Karo*

        Well, when I hear someone say “Mom did x” I think of my mother, not theirs. I feel like it’s more common when talking to people outside of your siblings to say “my [parent].”

      3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Typically if you are talking to someone who isn’t in the nuclear family you would say ‘my mom/dad’

        Related, but I’ve been listening to Pride and Prejudice and Zombies (don’t judge it’s a great book!) and find it jarring when the Bennet girls refer to their parents as ‘my mother’ when talking among themselves.

        2. Miso*

          Oh, I totally do that. Telling someone about what my cousin (for example) did, only to realise “Oh wait. You’re also my cousin. It’s your brother actually. Yeeah, I guess I can use his name.”

        3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

          I had the exact same issue the first time I read Pride and Prejudice! I thought they were indicating that they had different mothers and given the time period the only way that would have been acceptable is if the first wife/mother died and the father had remarried – but then I couldn’t figure out which daughter was born to the first wife/mother vs the second.

          It really threw me for a loop!

        4. Memily*

          My boyfriend, when talking to his sister, often refers to one of their parents as “your mother” or “your father” and it drives her insane.

          1. Orca*

            At work my counterpart and I do that when talking about our shared manager…as in “why aren’t you doing [thing for me]?” “hmm well YOUR boss asked me to do [other thing] =P”

        6. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

          My sister occasionally says something like this to me (“I was talking to my mom and blah blah blah”) which is just a little verbal slip-up, because she’s probably more used to talking to her co-workers than me, but it is always a little jarring. Because she’s my mom, too!

      4. owlie*

        I feel like it implies a level of familiarity that this poster is uncomfortable with–if my best friend tells me a story about “mom” (a woman I have known since I was twelve) it makes sense because I’m familiar with that person. If a random coworker refers to “my [their] mom” it makes more sense because I have no relationship or understanding of that person other than in relation to their child/my colleague.

        1. Meghan Trainer*

          owlie – I think you’re right. If my best friend/sister/cousin/husband said “mom” or “dad,” I wouldn’t think twice about it!

      5. Trig*

        I think “Mom” is treating it like a proper noun, whereas “my mom” is a common noun. Like my mom’s name is Mom, which is only true for me and my sister. For everyone else, my mom’s name is Patricia*. It’s fine informally/when I’m talking to my sister, but confusing or jarring formally/when I’m talking to other people who have other moms.

      6. The Ginger Ginger*

        It’s a bit of a weird wording in that just saying “Mom” or “Dad” sort of implies that the mom/dad is the parent of both people in the conversation, since in that use case, the relationship title is standing in for the proper name of the individual (hence the capital letter if you’re writing it out). But it’s not the listener’s mom/dad, so it’s more correct for the speaker to say MY mom/dad.

        So if I were talking to my brother, I’d say “Mom is really excited about her visit later this month.” But if I were talking to a coworker, I’d say “My mom is really excited about her visit later this month.” because she’s not my coworker’s mom, and it sounds weird to imply that she is.

      7. Snazzy Hat*

        There’s a linguistics term for the difference, but I don’t remember what it’s called because I took that class almost ten years ago. Something to do with the relationship between the listener and the subject of the conversation, and that the subject changes depending on the speaker or the speaker’s relationship with the listener. For example,
        1) if I’m talking to my sister about our father, “Dad” refers to only one person between the two of us;
        2) if I’m talking to my partner about my father, “Dad” isn’t his father but is at least someone with whom he has a close-enough relationship (or to make it simpler, “Dad” is my father while “Padre” is my partner’s father);
        3) if my mother talks to me about my father, she may refer to him as “Dad” because of her similar title as “Mom” to me;
        4) if my aunt talks to me about my father, she’ll definitely refer to him as “your Dad” because she doesn’t hold that similar title. Sure, she’s related, but in a different way.

        So when Meghan’s coworker refers to a person as “Dad”, Meghan is weirded out because there is no familial relationship between herself and her coworker, or even a close friendship. Doubly weird if Meghan has never met the father.

    2. SoCalHR*

      Using “mom” and “dad” instead of “my mom/dad” is a weird pet peeve thing for me. I know its minor but its one of those things I find odd.

      1. the gold digger*

        It is odd! I use “mom” with my brother and sister because we are talking about the SAME MOM, but with anyone else who does not share a mother with me, I would use, “my mom.” You know. To differentiate from the other person’s mom.

        1. ThatGirl*

          On the opposite side, my husband’s (34) younger brother (13) will refer to their parents as “my dad” or “my mom” and I’m like… kid… they’re [husband’s] parents too.

            1. Morwen the Grad Student*

              I’ve accidentally said that to my sibling and it feels bizarre.

          2. Felicia*

            I do kind of the opposite with my sisters where we refer to our shared mother as “your mom”. E.g. “Your mom said we’re going to X place tomorrow” “But…she’s your mom too?” “She’s not my mom when she’s doing Y”

            It started when my youngest sister would make “your mom” jokes to me and I’d point out that that didn’t work because we have the same mom and then she was like “Fine, our mom then.”

          3. obleighvious*

            My dad’s siblings do/did this ALL the time. They were a big group, and I always thought it had to do with the fact that they were competing for time/attention with their parents. They’d be like “I talked to MY mom this weekend, [brother]?” and it was weirdly pointed! My sister and I (there are only two of us!) still think it was so odd!!

          4. Thursday Next*

            He probably never shared a home with your husband and their parents, at the same time. All his lived experience has been without the typical sibling exchanges where kids talk about their shared parents with each other.

            I mean, if I were you or your husband, I’d also find it strange to hear him say that! But from his point of view, it’s probably more natural.

            1. ThatGirl*

              Well, that’s definitely true, he’s essentially an only child. We just find it kind of funny.

          5. Courageous cat*

            Yeah, that’s tough at that age to kind of work out, though. My brother was 28 when I was 13, and I probably said stuff like that too. We had never lived together, and I was still too young at that point to have any meaningful sibling bonds with him, so honestly he didn’t really feel much like my brother at that time – and that’s how things like that happen.

            Now that I’m 31 and he’s 46 we have a much more sibling-esque bond because the playing field is pretty level now, we’re both dealing with the same kinds of things in life. And I refer to them as “dad” and “mom” with him.

    3. Tired Scientist*

      I worked with someone like that once, too. All she would talk about was “Mom”. “Mom” and I did this last weekend, or “Mom” thinks that movie is overrated. Again, not “my mom”, but “Mom”. It was truly odd.

        1. bonkerballs*

          I think the difference is, when you say mom about your own mother, mom is (to you) basically their name. But to the other person that’s not what their name is. So if I’m talking to my sister and referring to our mother, I’m just going to say mom. Because that refers to someone who is mom to both of us. But if I’m talking to someone else, just saying “mom said such and such” doesn’t make sense because she’s not that person’s mom and would never refer to her as such.

    4. Sweet Baby James*

      I’m a teacher. My absolute biggest verbal irritation is when teachers refer to a kid’s parents as “mom” and “dad”. Like a teacher telling the guidance counselor that they “talked with mom about this.” She’s not your mom!!

      Also, when in a meeting with a kid and his parents, calling the parents “mom” and “dad” in front of the kid. “Well mom, what do you think about that?” Kids follow adults cues and have their own BS detectors. You don’t relate to kids by acting like them, especially not in high school.

      1. SoCalHR*

        To your second paragraph though, my friend’s mom always used to call my friend’s dad by his first name instead of “your dad” or “dad” which I find even more odd. Rather than saying “Dad’s going to be home at 7 tonight” she would say “Bob is going to be home at 7.”

        1. Baby Fishmouth*

          But when it’s two adults talking to each other, especially if they’re not both the parents of the child, it’s weird. When it’s the mom talking to the kid about the dad, or vice versa, it’s normal to say ‘Dad’, and if it’s an adult outside of the family, you can say ‘your mom’ or ‘your dad’.

          But two adults talking to each other should just call each other by their first names, even if they’re talking in front of a kid.

        2. Tau*

          I don’t find this weird, but then again I call my own parents by their first names so it’s possible my parental nomenclature weirdness scale isn’t properly calibrated.

        3. Live and Learn*

          My dad used to send me the occasional email signed “Ted”. I responded “I like to think our relationship has evolved into a less formal place after 30+ years, feel free to respond as “Dad.” He declined.

        4. sleepwakehopeandthen*

          I still remember when my parents switched from referring to each other as Mom and Dad in conversation with us (“I was talking to Mom about dinner, etc”). It was when most of us moved out of the house and so they mostly started talking to each other instead of us. The big problem that this caused is that my husband and my father have the same name, so it was confusing when after years of my mom saying “Dad was doing X” she started saying “[shared name] was doing X” and while I was usually pretty sure she wasn’t talking to my husband, sometimes it was confusing, especially since they have similar hobbies.

        5. Thursday Next*

          Ha, my husband and I refer to each other as “Mommy” and “Daddy” when talking to our children, but for some reason, they will occasionally address him or talk about him by his first name. It cracks me up to hear my 7-y.o. say, “John [not his real name] is really late tonight.”

          But I am always Mommy. I’m not sure why…

      3. Lil Fidget*

        This drove my sister nuts when she was preggo. The doctors and nurses would all refer to her as “mommy” (or “mom” but that’s only better in comparison) and it made her feel crazy. I totally sympathized as that would be so annoying to me too.

        1. Friday*

          I think some people (pediatrician’s office)t do that when they forget the woman’s name, but yes it bugs me too. There are only two people in this whole world who get to call me mommy, and they’re the two I created. Definitely not the checkout person at the grocery store, who to my knowledge I did not create.

      4. TotesMaGoats*

        My 4th grade teacher referred to herself in the 3rd person all the time. Drove me crazy because I couldn’t figure out why you’d do that with kids.

      5. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        As a parent, I always find this a little odd. I’m not the teacher’s mom and I have a name!

      7. ZuZus Petals*

        As a mom, I always just assume it’s because the person doesn’t know my name! My kids are also still really little though; I think it would weird me out more if they were 18 and their teacher/hairdresser/whatever were still calling me Mom as a proper noun.

      8. School Psych*

        I’m also an educator and I cringe every-time I hear someone do this. Both the special-ed director and the sped coordinator at my high-school do this in meetings, “What do you think mom?” It sets up weird power dynamic when everyone else in the room is being referred to as Mr. and Ms. So and So and you’re referring to the parent in such an informal way. The parent is supposed to be part of the educational team and the expert in their own child. It’s kind of disrespectful to call them something other than the name they introduced themselves with and doesn’t exactly say that you value their input and think they are on the same level as everyone else in the room.

        1. KayKay*

          Also, you don’t have to call people anything, especially if you don’t know their names! I find “come this way, please” far better than “come this way, Mom” from my kids’ pediatrician’s staff or preschool director.

        2. Mad Baggins*

          Yes, this! If you forget/don’t know the mother’s name, “Ma’am” works just as well.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I have a former coworker who seemed to think I was super awesome and amazing and clearly wanted to be Best Buds with me. I managed to keep her at a friendly distance, but she would tell me all sorts of personal stuff and rant on about her overbearing mother a lot. And it got really weird when she would say that she’d told her mom about things I’d said or done and her mom’s reaction. So yeah.

    6. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      In my last department, I worked with a guy who used baby talk all the time. It was so annoying and bizarre. He would mostly use it when asking for help or something from women, which made it even worse – never used it on his (male) boss, or with the other men (sometimes he used it with the young men, but rarely). And when he asked for help – it was usually really simple tasks that he knew how to do! He was the training manager of the application we supported, and most of his requests were things he trained people on. He’d say stuff like “I’m dumb and no good with ‘puters, you are sooo much bwetter, can yooo hep meeee????” and I would recoil in disgust, and just flat out tell him no. I started coaching all the women to refuse him as well, especially since it was stuff HE ALREADY KNEW HOW TO DO.

      He didn’t do anything else that was creepy or overstepping but damn, that was a super annoying and sexist habit. Fortunately he pretty much dropped it once I went on my crusade and people started standing up to him.

      1. ElspethGC*

        I’m cringing. I think if someone acted like that around me I’d probably just start laughing out of sheer bafflement. And you were really the first person to say “Uh, no, please stop being weird”?

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          I don’t know if I was ever the first person (he’d been there a loooong time) but at the time, all the women I worked with just cringed and never said anything, because he was friendly and helpful otherwise, and they didn’t want to hurt his feelings. He didn’t really do it around any of the men, and his boss was never around to witness it (or would have done anything if he had….that boss is another story for another day!).

          1. ElspethGC*

            Hooray for the socialisation that teaches women that we should be responsible for another person’s emotional state even when that other person is really, *really* asking for it.

            1. As Close As Breakfast*

              And how nice that it blanket covers everyone, right? Even random people we just happen to work with.

      2. Meghan Trainer*

        Oh lord. No. Please no. I would have lost my mind. BUT that coworker makes for a great story!

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          I wanted to throw things at him. It bugs me enough when someone pesters others for simple tasks they know how to do, but the baby talk….gaaahhhh it was awful.

      3. Oxford Coma*

        “Have you tried telling the computer he’s a good little Snookums?”

        or, if you’ve put on your sassy pants that day,

        “Yes, you are.”

      4. The Original K.*

        Oh my God, I cannot STAND baby talk. At all. I don’t even use it when I talk to babies. I don’t know if I would have been able to keep from being like ” … WTF are you doing?” if he started that with me.

          1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

            I definitely use baby talk more with my dogs than I have with my own human baby.

      5. essEss*

        I would have seriously stopped, looked at him, and asked “why are you talking baby-talk at me?”

      6. Carbovore*

        The main boss in my office routinely uses babytalk (and she’s a woman which doesn’t really make it sexist but instead just condescending and weird). I used to find it eyeroll worthy and annoying but as of this year, I decided it’s a really gross tactic used by a narcissist. (I fell down a rabbithole recently because I was trying to figure out how to deal with this boss who definitely displays narcissist tendencies. The articles and podcasts I listen to only confirmed it.)

        Now when the babytalk starts, I respond in an unaffected way (no mirroring which sometimes I find myself unconsciously doing) or I ignore it all together. It’s helped a lot and the bonus has been that I can tell it drives her CRAZY that I’m not having a reaction to it. :)

        LOL and like you, I went on a crusade to share with my like-minded coworkers… we’re all effectively reigning her in with our new tactics and it’s kind of entertaining to watch her come undone a bit whereas before we were really aggravated.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          I’m glad you and your coworkers are having success. :) I worked for a couple of narcissistic bosses and they were THE WORST.

          The thing that bothered me more was how he tried to get people to basically do his work for him. Though he was manager level, he wasn’t OUR manager. The babytalk started slowing down as we collectively pushed back on that problem, and also looked at him like he was a loon and said, “I’m sorry?…what are you saying?…I can’t understand you,” over and over when he pulled the babytalk shit.

    7. Top That*

      A few weeks after the 9/11 attacks, a coworker at a temp job thought she found anthrax in an envelope and called 911 and a million (fit, good looking) fireman came into our workplace and locked it down for several hours.

      Turns out it was little crumbs of paper created by opening mail using this mail opener device. As in, it didn’t come out of an envelope, it was an envelope. Also, we were in a mid-sized west coast city. Also, we were the litigation arm of an insurance company doing car accident and slip and fall defense, not the typical target for terrorism of the domestic or international type.

      1. ElspethGC*

        I think it would make sense to freak out if there was a serious plague of domestic terrorism (the Unabomber targeted universities and computer stores, the various Irish domestic terrorists during the Troubles targeted the homes and businesses of the opposite religion) but not in relation to 9/11 style terrorism.

        1. EmilyG*

          There was an outbreak of anthrax mailings immediately after 9/11. I was a young assistant working in Lower Manhattan at the time and I remember it as just One More Thing in a season of mind-bending confusion and fear. We didn’t work in a sensitive industry but had to wear gloves while opening mail and had a protocol for what to do if we found a powder or anything.

      2. Meghan Trainer*

        Ha! I could totally see myself opening an envelope and having that same fear right after 9/11. Not sure I would call 911 though…

      4. essEss*

        During that big anthrax-in-the-mail scare we had a coworker running in the office having a yelling panic fit about a white powder splotch on the carpet outside our breakroom because he insisted it was anthrax. Later that day a new policy came out that we weren’t allowed to have white powdered sugar donuts in the office any more because of that. (sadly, not a joke)

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      That’s bizarre!

      On a related note, I work with someone who refers to her grandparents by their pet names as if they were relationship titles. She’ll say “I’m going to visit my Mee-maw this weekend.” Does that seem weird to anyone else? To me, it’s like a child who thinks their mother’s name is “Mommy.” I would either say “I’m visiting Mee-maw” (if talking to family or others who know her as Mee-maw) or “I’m visiting my grandmother” if talking to coworkers. I mean, if your nickname for your brother is “Bubba,” would you tell a coworker “I’m visiting my Bubba?” Wouldn’t you say “my brother?” Or is it just me?

      1. Meghan Trainer*

        That’s hilarious. I was just thinking about a similar thing. Do you think it’s okay to say “I’m visiting my grandma.” Or is “grandma” too pet name-ish too? I feel like it’s okay but feels weird for some reason.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I think “grandma” is common enough that it can be considered a title, not a pet name. It’s just a shortened form of “grandmother.”

      2. Baby Fishmouth*

        I think it depends – I try to remember to just say grandma usually, but my grandma is my ‘Oma’ to me (which literally means grandma in Dutch), or my Nana on the other side. I say ‘I’m going to visit my Oma’ the same way I’d say ‘I’m going to visit my mom’. That IS the relationship title to me, in my head. It’s how I differentiate between my grandmothers.

      3. College Career Counselor*

        I would find that a bit odd now, but not when I lived in the south, where that term is much more common than “grandmother.”

      4. Laura*

        I have third cousins that always did that. Part of it was their grandmother and parents liked it because it showed the rest of us how much better and cooler Bebawl was then other grandparents. Once afterwards my grandmother (Grandma) told me I could call her granny or anything else but not Bebawl.

    9. Tara S.*

      ?? I don’t know if this is a regional thing, but it’s not weird to me to use Mom like that? Less common, sure, but she’s just using it like a name instead of a title. Like, “Mary and I went to the zoo this weekend,” but since she’s Mom in her head, the name gets swapped out to “Mom and I went to the zoo this weekend.”

      1. CBE*

        But it is not a name, it IS a title! So it is weird to use mom as a name. And because it is a title that describes a relationship, it’s particularly weird to use it like that with someone who doesn’t share the same relationship you do.

        1. bonkerballs*

          Well actually, it’s kind of both. When I speak to my mom or dad, it’s used as their name. For example, I answer my mom’s phone calls with “Hey, Mom” just like I would use anyone else’s name. It’s not used like a title then. I wouldn’t answer a phone call with “Hey, Sister-in-Law” or “Hey, Lawyer.” But when you’re talking to someone else who potentially has their own mom, then the word shifts more towards being a title.

      2. OperaArt*

        Same here. It’s very common for people use Mom and Dad as if they were names. It’s like having dozens of Marys and Daves. Maybe this is regional. It does seem to be used more in stories about those people.

      3. MeridaAnn*

        The difference to me is whether or not the person I’m talking to knows the person I’m talking about. So if my mom and my friend Lessa know each other, I could say to either of them “Mom and I went to the zoo” or “Lessa and I went to the park”. But if I’m talking to my coworker, Menolly, who doesn’t know either of them, I would say “My mom and I went to the zoo” or “My friend, Lessa, and I went to the park.” I wouldn’t just tell Menolly that “Lessa and I went to the park” if she has no idea who Lessa is, I would clarify with “my friend”, just as I would clarify “*my* mom”.

        1. Lissa*

          Cosigned (good job on the Pern names too, lol.) I don’t know why but it comes off as a bit childish to me if someone I don’t know well, whose parent I don’t know, just says “So mom and I…” But, it probably wouldn’t super ping me on its own. Added to all the rest of OP here, it comes off as *really* odd to me. “Dad thinks this about you!” just…weird.

          Also i always get on my SO for launching into stories about people I have no idea of with just their names.

      4. Trillion*

        Agreed. Maybe it is regional because so many people do it around me.

        In fact it becomes more strange to continually refer to them as “my mom.” It would be like saying “my husband” when we all know your husband is Jack. We all met him at the party last month. (Note, this implies a certain level of familiarity with the group, as is the case with the original comment).

    10. MAB*

      I used to work with a guy who would randomly belch really, really loud than apologize. Only in his office, the plant floor or in communal areas and never in the main office or coworkers offices (he still belched just quietly). It was an odd medical thing I think. I ended up playing a small game in my head of how many times he would belch around me and forget I was there per day.

      I will say he was a great guy and would work with him in a heart beat. Belching and all.

    11. DaniCalifornia*

      I will admit to being the weird person who subconsciously picks up other’s accents. I worked with a front office that was completely Hispanic and my trainer would speak in Spanish and Spanglish to me (I was trying to better my conversational skills) After a year I had this voice tic/thing/?, not quite sure how to describe it but my best friend noticed it. Another time my sister pointed out that while we had been living in Texas for about 6 years at that point I had this Southern accent instead of an East coast accent. The girl I was working at the time was from the deep South and we were the only ones in our section.

      I have since been very conscious of this and try my hardest to not do it. Thankfully my British accent is horrible so I could never even fake that! LOL!

      1. Meghan Trainer*

        I think I do that in a less-obvious way. A few weeks ago, after spending a day with my sister, my husband pointed out that I was talking like she does. I happen to find her voice beyoooooond annoying, so I was taken aback by this comment.

      2. On Fire*

        One of my good friends is originally from California (near LA), and all through school she kept that speech pattern – that is, she didn’t pick up my southern state’s accent or slang. But then she married a man from a very rural part of my state. Since they’ve been together, every time I talk to her I’m taken aback by how different she sounds. Her voice is almost a caricature of a southern accent, it’s so strong and exaggerated-sounding. (But she still won’t say “y’all.” :-) )

      3. Trillion*

        I read a study saying more empathetic people tend to more easily pick up on accents, verbal tics, and speech patterns of those around them.

      4. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        I’ve lived in the UK for almost 15 years and I still make an effort not to start talking as if I’m British, or adopt a fake accent. I don’t know why, it just reminds me of how Madonna started talking as if she were born and raised English like minutes after she moved here (and I’m sure dropped it the instant she decided to divorce Guy Ritchie). There’s just something kind of wrong sounding to me if I start throwing out terms like “quid” or “hollybobs” with my midwestern accent.

        That, and I can’t mimic the local accent where I live to save my life.

    12. fromscratch*

      I have a new coworker who does the following on a regular basis:
      Enters the office with air-horn or siren noises playing on her cell-phone to announce her arrival
      Adopts a Steve Urkel/Fran Drescher nasal & high pitched voice to complain about things
      Baby talks randomly
      Blasts Cardi B on bluetooth speakers at top volume randomly when other people are on the phone or working

        2. fromscratch*

          LOLOL. No. She’s not. Just a clueless 25-year old who has only had one other professional job so far.

      2. Minocho*

        It’s horrendously embarrassing, I don’t know why we do it, but my mother and I sometimes lapse into baby talk with each other.

      4. The Original K.*

        I kind of love that she announces her arrival with an air horn. I mean, I would hate it if I worked with her, but I love hearing about it.

      5. On Fire*

        I used to play a sound clip of a trumpet flourish on my phone when a particular coworker entered the office. But that was only for a couple of week because of specific circumstances, and she *loved* it.

    13. Minocho*

      We had a new junior tech guy, hired fresh out of college, start at our team (so fresh out of college, he put his framed diploma up in his cubicle, which I, at least, found odd). He would always show up at work with bruises on his face and arms from MMA fighting over the weekend. All women in the office fell into one of two categories with him. You were either…er…”date material”…or “mommy” (I, thank goodness, was old enough in my mid-30’s to be relegated to “mommy” status).

      There was a project my boss needed completed, and he assigned three people on our team to it: a mid level guy, the new guy, and myself. I was told to let mid level guy do most of the work, but to keep an eye on it, as I had previous experience with similar things before – try to mentor him and avoid pitfalls, with little hands on involvement. New guy was on the project to help as possible, and learn about how to work in a professional environment, essentially.

      New guy had a few problems. The project was interdepartmental and moderately political. During meetings, he would interrupt department heads or senior people, only to interject information that had either already been covered, or was completely unrelated. People were annoyed, but tried to ignore it and give him a chance, considering his youth and inexperience. I would make small motions in an attempt to stop him from interrupting others when I saw he was about to do it, and earned a couple of angry glares for my trouble. When I would stop in for a quick check in with mid-level guy on their progress, new guy would run over and grill mid level guy and I on the project or stand behind me.

      One day I get a message on our interoffice chat from him:
      New Guy: Can we talk?
      Me: Sure.
      New Guy: Actually, can you come over here?
      Me:…Ok…

      So I go over to his cube. “Actually, can we go someplace private to talk?” he asks. Now I’m really annoyed…but I’ve already come over to his cube, so whatever. “All right.”

      He then proceeds to tell me that I need to work on my interpersonal skills, because I’ve hurt his feelings. I need to take his feelings more into account, and I’m holding him back from participating in the project. I need to improve my social skills, give him more eye contact, and make him more important in the project.

      I was still trying to recover from a colossal political error from a week ago (it took the offended party 3 years, but the offended party in this incident carries grudges, and eventually got me fired from that job), so was unwilling to take my more usual blunt approach. I stuck to lines about how his participation in the project was valued and important, but the greatest value he could bring to the team was to use the project as a learning experience, blah blah blah. The guy would not drop the conversation, and it went on for a good 15 minutes or so. All I can think of is not to throw another grenade onto my own career right now, and get out of here and to my boss ASAP.

      Finally it looks like he’s winding down, when out of the blue:
      New Guy: So, you drink Monster, right?
      (I don’t like coffee, Monster Ultra is my caffiene fix in the morning)
      Me: (annoyed but confused)…Yeah…
      New Guy: So, I drank a Monster this weekend, and it gave me a heart attack!
      Me: Are you sure it wasn’t heartburn?
      New Guy: No! I’m sure it was a heart attack!
      Me: Um, well, if you had a heart attack, a doctor should be able to tell. You should probably see a doctor about that.
      New Guy: Right now?
      Me:…You can probably wait to schedule an appointment.
      New Guy: Oh. Okay. So you’re going to stop drinking Monster now, right?
      Me: No.

      Then I go into my boss’s office, tell him about the conversation, and let him know that it should not happen again.

      New Guy eventually got fired. You may remember that I was grateful to be relegated to Mommy status. Well, he got fired for following women from work who turned down his requests for data home from work…multiple times. So….yeah. Yikes.

          1. Minocho*

            I literally couldn’t help wondering if he’d been hit in the head too often during MMA, and had suffered some judgement reducing injury of some sort.

            Imagine that poor girl, already dealing with “lovestruck” new guy at work, finding out that he Followed Her Home From Work at NIGHT. Uuuuuuuugh. Just terrifying.

            Hey, at least he was fired after multiple complaints. I would think one such should be enough, but…I’ll take what I can get?

            1. Jules the Third*

              Not just ‘lovestruck’ but ‘lovestruck amateur MMA fighter with serious entitlement’ (Minocho is not to drink monster my aunt fanny).

              That is potential dead right there.

    14. Temperance*

      That’s way weirder than the fake Brit! IDK, it just seems so weird and babyish for an adult woman to refer to her parents that way.

    15. Red Reader*

      I used to have a coworker who would regularly – like every couple of weeks – come into work wearing a white union suit printed with blue flowers. Like, full on, buttoned bum-flap, waffle-weave, one-piece union suit. She wore it with powder-blue matching stiletto heels. I don’t know … why? nobody ever told her this was a problem – she was not in my department – but about every two weeks, there would go Jane, in her union suit and stilettos, on her way to her desk. (She worked in the purchasing office and met with vendors regularly, by the way. All of her coworkers dressed professionally, and in fact so did she when it wasn’t Union Suit Day!)

      1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

        I had to Google “Union Suit”. When you said butt flap, I thought it was what I thought, but I couldn’t believe it.

        She wore butt-flapped onesie pajamas to work with stilettos? What? Why? No.

      3. DCGirl*

        I had a supervisor whose sartorial choices were, um, striking, to say the least. I was sitting in my office one day when the graphic designer ran in, shut the door, and slid down it to the floor because she’d seen my supervisor coming down the hall in one of her unique ensembles.

        She reached a new pinnacle when she found a pair of seafoam green suede shooties (shoe boots) that she just loved. To make them go with everything, she bought a seafoam green turtle neck (possible several, given that we saw in multiple times during the week) and wore it under every outfit she owned, so that there would be seafoam green peeking out at the neckline and the cuffs. So, you’d see it and the shooties with her eyeball-searing yellow and black buffalo check dress (and that one was an eyeful even without the accents of seafoam green), with a purple and green flowered dress, with a red striped dress… Basically with everything she owned.

      5. Magee*

        The (long-time) receptionist at my work regularly wears velour pant suits and sneakers to work. We’ve only been allowed to wear jeans about a year now, so everyone is taking the new rules pretty seriously- pretty much still wearing business casual clothes but replacing the slacks/khakis with jeans. And there is a very specific rule about no sneakers. I have no idea why no one has told her that this is not appropriate clothing (especially seeing that she’s the first person most visitors see), but it’s interesting to watch.

      9. Marthoo"...*

        “… a white union suit printed with blue flowers… with powder-blue matching stiletto heels.”

        So, basically Mrs Peel meets Laura Ashley, then?

    16. Sadie Catie*

      I worked with someone who would use my chapstick if I left it out on the desk.
      We did work very closely for years and I consider him a friend, so I was okay with it, but it was still odd.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Ewwwwwwwwwww! Unless you’re someone where I’ve got the kind of relationship with you that I’d be willing to mash my lips against your lips, you do NOT need to be using my chapstick. I’d be so grossed out by that.

    17. annejumps*

      There’s a new, older lady at my work, who I witnessed taking her fast food meal and drink (uneaten) into the ladies’ room with her… into a stall. And then she took it back to her desk and ate it. She could have left it in the breakroom which she walked through to get to the ladies’ room, but I guess she was afraid someone would steal it…? Tbh I would rather someone steal it than eat food that had been in a restroom stall.

    18. Pollygrammer*

      Have a coworker who has asked at least 3 women in the office if they were pregnant. None of them were. I don’t understand how you wouldn’t learn after the first time. Two of them I know were really upset about it.

      1. Meghan Trainer*

        That’s insane. You’ve got to be so clueless to make this mistake more than once. *facepalm*

    19. KAB*

      Ah! I had a co-worker JUST like that, too! She lived with them but they were retired and decided to move down to Florida. They left her the house IIRC. She was constantly telling us about what she told them about work and that her parents “missed us” (I never met them!).

      She was really into oversharing on a general level, though. She worked at the front desk and one day we had members of our board coming in for an important meeting with the CEO. The most senior member of the board arrived and asked her how she was doing– clearly a pleasantry. She launched into a story about how she was still recovering from having shingles……

      1. Meghan Trainer*

        The other thing that bothered me about this coworker is that she would always overshare in her response to “How are you?”. Ha! What are the odds?! I’ll never forget the day when I witnessed this interaction:

        Different coworker: Hi, how are you?
        Coworker: Awful. It’s shark week if you know what I mean…
        Different coworker: Okay?
        Coworker: That means I am getting my period. I’m thinking about going on birth control. What are you on?
        Different coworker: *look of horror, makes eye contact with me, time stands still*

        I’m cringing right now just writing this.

    20. LDP*

      When I was working at a PR agency we were responsible for billing all our time, in 15 min increments. I had one coworker, let’s call him “Ryan”, who was having a hard time accomplishing all the things on his to do list, so he was talking to another coworker, “Phyllis”, for advice about how to manage his time better.

      Phyllis: Ryan, what’s this half hour block you have every afternoon, after lunch? You don’t have it labelled as anything.
      Ryan: Oh, that’s my Tinder bathroom break.

      And he wondered why he wasn’t getting anything done.

  20. Nervous accountant*

    I am not sure if this is a work or non work open thread so I can post again tomorrow if not appropriate for today.

    What are ppls thoughts on someone injecting themselves with a needle openly in the office? Is it unprofessional/inappropriate?

    I inject insulin 3-6x a day. I used to be very secretive about being diabetic but I’m slowly becoming more open about it now both at work and personally. I used to keep it a secret, and would only do it in a bathroom stall. Now I do it in the “public” area of the restroom for convenience. For the most part no one from my office has walked in and seen me (we share a bathroom w/ another company on the floor). I’m not at the point to do it at my desk b/c its an open office and would involve lifting my shirt/dress. Just wondering ppls thoughts on this.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I know plenty of diabetics who do this discretely at their desks and I don’t see a problem with it as long as you’re disposing of the needles properly.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        +1 Loose sharps in the office trash would /not/ be okay, and I think it’d be a bit odd if you’re, idk, out in a public table in the break room, but imo injecting at your desk, turned so no one can see you stick yourself would be fine.

      1. Snubble*

        Do you take pills at your desk? Do you disapprove of wearing a wrist brace in public?

        1. Jadelyn*

          …you are aware that taking a pill is not the same as injecting yourself with medication, yes? They are distinct actions. I fail to see how it’s unreasonable to feel differently about one as opposed to the other. You can be fine with someone putting a band-aid on someone else’s cut for them in public but not want to see someone stitching up a cut in public. We’re not obligated to treat them identically, because they’re not identical actions or procedures.

          If nothing else, I’ve never known anyone to have a phobia of pills – but there are definitely people who have phobias about needles.

          1. Delphine*

            But it’s not stitching up a cut, it’s taking necessary medication. Another person’s needle phobia is irrelevant. They don’t have to watch while she gives herself insulin.

            1. Traffic_Spiral*

              Stitching up a cut is pretty dang necessary too. Doesn’t make it any less squicky to watch.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Kinda disagree. As long as she’s discreet who cares. I have a good friend who’s Type 1 and always injects right after he eats dinner, even in restaurants. Nobody cares.

      3. ElspethGC*

        I disagree. It’s necessary medication, and all the diabetics I know are very discreet about it. I wouldn’t even have known if they hadn’t been sitting next to me and if I hadn’t seen them working out their dosage beforehand. It’s no different to taking a pill for gastric problems before eating so that you can digest your food properly. Besides, a desk is a lot more sanitary than a bathroom, especially since a used needle will have to go into a sharps bin afterwards.

      4. Phoenix Programmer*

        Disagree. Have had friends and coworkers inject at lunch. It’s NBD.

      5. MattKnifeNinja*

        I get your point.

        I have no problems with seeing someone lancing themselves for a blood sugar or shooting insulin. Though, I worked in health care.

        BUT I know plenty of people who would be totally squicked out by all of the above, to where they would address it personally.

        It happened at my old job.

      6. Mad Baggins*

        My two cents, I’m really really uncomfortable with needles and I would appreciate it done in the bathroom. I don’t think you need to do it *in a stall* unless you’re doing it during those 5 min after lunch when the whole world uses the bathroom, but it would be very gracious of you to not do it at your desk! (And if you have to lift up your dress/otherwise actually undress I think you should do it in a stall)

    3. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      Personally I’d think of it similar as taking medication at a desk, it’s something you need to do! I’d also worry about the cleanliness of a bathroom for injecting!

      I used to work with a male coworker who would inject at his desk in an open plan office, no one commented or was weird about it.

      I think it may be worth thinking about your co-workers, ie are they likely to pry or make weird comments? Last thing you want is Clarence from accounts telling you about the evils or insulin and how you need to instead rub a glowing crystal on your neck while you hop on one foot and that will cure you!!

      1. The Original K.*

        Injecting oneself seems more … intimate? Serious? than swallowing pills to me though, even though the objective is the same. I’ve taken pills publicly countless times but I don’t think I would inject myself in public. If I saw someone doing it at their desk I would be startled, but I don’t think I would say anything.

      2. Nervous accountant*

        Oh the cleanliness of a bathroom never occurred to me. This is an open office and all the “offices” have glass windows so there’s 0 privacy except for the bathroom. The only reason I hated being in a stall is b/c there’s literally no place to place anything down, so I’d be putting the syringes/needles in my bra etc to hold until I could get back to my desk. (what will I do if I ever have a kid and might need to bf, I’ll cross that bridge when I get there I guess).

        the reason I was so secretive for such a long time is b/c I was afraid of being judged for being overweight, not having a good diet (notoriously bad sweet tooth). I’m getting better now but, old habits and perceptions you know? But for the most part my coworkers are nice, sane people so I’m not too worried about awful comments.

        Anyway, I have no burning desire to do it just yet, just curious for now.

        1. Boredatwork*

          How big are your windows? Could you make a “privacy” screen and flip it open/closed? Do you guys have a “wellness” room? I would imagine, that the best place for this would be wherever people pump for work.

          This said – I’m horrifically afraid of needles, just knowing a co-worker had one at their desk would make me uneasy, the actual sight of a needle will give me a panic attack. It’s so bad that I WFH on blood drive/flu shot days.

          As for the judgment about your wight, you do you, I used to stress eat Easter candy, I’d gain 20+ lbs every busy season!

    4. CAA*

      I would be totally fine with you doing it in the open part of the restroom. Some people get squicked out or are phobic about needles, but it’s a medical need, so I think they have to deal with that themselves and just step out of the restroom until you’re finished if they need to.

      I would be less fine with doing it at your desk, even if you didn’t have to disarrange your clothes. It just feels too much like a personal grooming task. I also don’t comb my hair, put on lipstick, or file my fingernails at my desk though, and I’ve definitely seen other people do that.

      1. only acting normal*

        I wouldn’t file all my nails at my desk, but do you really go to the toilets to smooth off a single broken/cracked/chipped nail?

        I happily take pills or put in eyedrops at my desk (we’re open plan, but my usual desk is next to a wall, so I turn to face that). I wouldn’t be bothered by someone discretely hitching their top up a bit and injecting insulin. Although maybe if the undoing of buttons/zips is required the open part of the toilets would be more advisible.

      2. Gotham Bus Company*

        Even the “public” area of a bathroom might not be sanitary enough for an injection of medicine. I have no problem with someone doing that in a cubicle or office, or even in the same room that a new mom might use for pumping (but not at the same time as the pumping, of course).

    5. Murphy*

      I don’t think it needs to be a super secret thing, but I think doing it at one’s desk is a bit much. (I think a public area of the bathroom is fine.)

    6. Snubble*

      I refuse to inject in bathrooms anywhere, because of hygiene concerns. I do it at my desk – turn towards the wall, tug my shirt up enough to get myself sorted, pull down, resume normal interactions. It was a bit weird at first but it helped to remember that the tummy isn’t an intensely private bit of skin. We wouldn’t normally show it at work, but it’s not inappropriate to have out at the beach or the pool, so it’s not really like being naked. (I won’t inject in my thighs at work, though, that would require dropping my trousers and that’s going too far for the office!)
      For me it helps to remember that we are disabled, and “I have to take this medication at this time or risk very bad medical problems including death” is a real problem. Injecting at work is an entirely reasonable accomodation to the disability that might kill you if you don’t. It would be unprofessional to do a song and dance about how you were going to inject now and everyone should close their eyes, but quietly getting on with your brief, medically necessary business is totally appropriate.

      1. AnonymousInfinity*

        YES. It’s discriminatory to expect someone who needs to inject insulin to remove themselves from the normal working environment, let alone sequester themselves in a germ-ridden bathroom to do it. I can’t even imagine.

    7. HannahS*

      I think it’s totally fine! I seem to recall that there was a question about this on the site a couple of months ago, so you can also search through the archives for it.

    8. WellRed*

      Person with Type 1 diabetes here. I do it discreetly, at my desk. They all know I have diabetes and…don’t really care. Also, it’s your choice, but I disagree that using a public area of a rest room is convenient. If I had to hide every time I needed an injection or finger stick…
      Also, I dispose of needles at home.

    9. IDeas*

      I have more than one friend who uses injectable insulin. The ONLY place I’ve ever had feelings about it at all was at dinner in a restaurant – if it were in a private home, fine, do it at the table if it’s easiest, but perhaps injecting oneself with anything short of an Epipen at the dinner table next to strangers isn’t wise. In your office where you are known (assuming clients don’t just walk in randomly), I’d say go for it.

    10. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Personally I wouldn’t be phased by it (even if done at a desk), the diabetics I’ve actually noticed giving themselves shots are super quick and discrete about it.

    11. Shelly573*

      One issue I would see with this is that a lot of people are phobic of needles. I would also argue that there is a difference between having to lift clothing and take a pill. Taking a pill is pretty subtle and doesn’t require clothing to be removed.

      But I maybe an outlier on this one. I don’t see any problem with using the public area of the restroom or if you had an office where you could close your door, but in an open office, the clothing removal seems to be the issue.

      1. WellRed*

        You don’t have to remove clothes, generally. I am wearing jeans and a top. I barely even lift the edge of my top for a quick injection, at my desk, basically out of sight. Also, I can’t manage people’s phobias, that’s on the them, though I’d be sensitive about it.

      2. Delphine*

        I don’t think another person’s needle phobia is something a diabetic person ever needs to take into consideration.

    12. Red Reader*

      Speaking personally: I’m squeamish about needles and don’t particularly want to see what you’re doing myself, so I’d appreciate it if you were turned away/toward the wall while you were doing it, but I also recognize that that’s my hangup and that your medical needs are more important than my personal squick so if that doesn’t happen, I’ll cope. Like the Detective said, as long as you’re disposing of needles and whatnot appropriately, that to me is the most important part.

      1. Susan Sto Helit*

        I also have a phobia of needles, but I just wouldn’t watch (or would turn away if I happened to catch a glimpse).

        It’s something that’s personal, but also necessary – kind of like breastfeeding in public. People are generally discreet about it, and you repay the favour by neither staring nor making a fuss. Baby gotta eat. Diabetics gotta inject.

    13. Logan*

      Some people faint around needles, so it may depend on the level of discretion possible. A very open-plan office might make it hard.

      I would be fine with it, as I’m used to needles, but I realise that not everyone is the same.

      1. Manders*

        Yep, blood-injection-injury type phobias tend to come with fainting more often than a lot of other phobias. I’m in that unfortunate group myself, and while I think it should be totally ok to inject a medication in the office, I’d really appreciate a heads up first so I can leave the room or turn away.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I think a lot comes down to the subtlety of your coworker though. I worked closely with someone with a pass out level phobia. One day, while we were eating, the subject came up.

          Jane: Yeah, I pass out at the sight of needles so just give me a heads up so I can look away.
          Me: Oh, no! I didn’t realize you had that intense of a phobia. I’m so sorry!
          Jane: What? Why?
          Me:… Because I just did my insulin while we were talking (in my own defence, before the phobia came up).
          Jane: What? Really? How? I didn’t even notice!
          Me: I’ve been doing it a long time, so I’m pretty subtle.
          Jane: I guess! Never mind then.

          and we carried on. It turned out that Jane’s mother-in-law was also insulin dependent and was NOT subtle at all about it, so Jane assumed that was true for everybody.

    14. Minocho*

      I don’t see a problem with it at all, it’s a matter of fact part of your life.

      I would be annoyed if someone made a big production about it, but the act itself is no different than me pulling out my bottle of Aleve and downing a pill for a headache.

    15. MechanicalPencil*

      I don’t see it being a big deal at all. I have to occasionally take an injectable medication, but it’s best done in the thigh, so the restroom is really my only option. If I saw you injecting insulin at work, at worst I’d probably make a crack about making sure you didn’t have any air bubbles in the syringe or something. In my world, it’s not a big deal. Or I’d ask where on earth you found a sharps container because for some reason everywhere I look they’re always either sold out of the carry size or …anyway.

    16. MeridaAnn*

      I meet with a group of friends weekly for dinner and one of them has to inject insulin each night. He usually does it discretely at the table, and I usually don’t even notice until he’s putting the cap back on, and I’m totally fine with that, even though I’m a bit squeamish with needles.

      The only times I’ve had an issue is when everyone starts talking about it and some of my other friends start asking if they can “stab” him and passing it around the table and it becomes a big *thing*. At that point, I start to get a bit freaked out just by thinking too much about the needle and once I even had to get up and go to the bathroom until he had finished. I think it’s absolutely his right (and yours) to use it whenever/where ever you need to, and I would never want him to feel like he couldn’t take it when needed, but I did mention to the whole group that the big discussions about it and talking about the process at length was making me freak out a bit and they have stopped making a big production out of it since then (plus the novelty of seeing it has worn off for them somewhat, too).

      I think going into the bathroom, even the common area of it, is certainly enough to be discrete. Frankly, I think it’s sad that you even have to go to the bathroom to take medicine, though I definitely get why you don’t want to lift clothing in an open office area. But my squeamishness is my issue and is trumped by your need for medicine. If you find out in the future that one of your coworkers is super sensitive to needles (to the point that seeing it even briefly would be a significant problem, instead of how I just have to look away to be okay), you might start giving that person a heads up to avoid the bathroom for just a minute when you head that way, but other than that

    17. Kuododi*

      I really don’t care at all. Ive checked my sugar in all sorts of public places. The only issue I would have with injecting insulin or other injectable diabetic meds in public would be if I could arrange clothing to get to stomach area discreetly. Of course I manage needles safely, that goes without saying! I’ve never been questioned or asked to take it to the restroom. I am not going to be all “in your face” however I will take care of business when and where it is necessary. My health is too important.

    18. Wendy*

      I test my blood at my desk, but I inject in the thigh, I go to the bathroom for that since no one wants Wendy to drop trou in the middle of reception :-)

    19. Temperance*

      I think if you have to show your underwear, you should pop into a stall. Otherwise, totally fine to use the open area. One of my friends is a Type 1 diabetic, and she’s so quick at injecting that you honestly wouldn’t notice.

    20. voluptuousfire*

      I grew up with a T1 diabetic mother and a father who is T2 but now insulin dependent. It’s normal to me.

      I wouldn’t blink if someone did that in a public space.

    21. Anna Canuck*

      I had a roommate that was diabetic, and it’s really not a BIG DEAL to see someone do an insulin injection after about the first time. Certainly fine for the open part of a restroom! And unless you’re hiking a dress to your armpits, probably fine to do at your desk on occasion if it makes more sense. The more matter-of-fact you are about it, the more likely others are to not care.

    22. epi*

      You shouldn’t need to do your injections in a bathroom. Cleanliness could be an issue, and you aren’t doing anything wrong. There is absolutely no comparison between something you need to do for your health, and optional personal grooming that some people find rude to do out in the open.

      Doing your injections discreetly at your desk is fine, and it’s very kind of you to be sensitive to people around you who don’t like needles. If it’s ever an issue, like you sit right next to someone who really has a problem with it, then you might want to talk to your boss about appropriate, clean places for you to do this– like a small conference room or a quiet room.

    23. EmilyG*

      I am very pro-doing normal life things without apology and have also fainted because of needles, so I’m of two minds on this. I don’t think I would faint just from seeing one but I’ve gotten a bit woozy. For me, anywhere that works for you is fine as long as I don’t see the needle going into the skin! I used to work with someone who did it at her desk, pulling up her shirt and then actually doing the injection under the level of the desk so that you couldn’t see unless you were standing right over her.

    24. Nervous accountant*

      Wow a lot of interesting responses here, thanks guys!

      A few other things I forgot to mention.
      I will sometimes do my fingerstick at my desk if i absolutely NEED to. Not often but occasionally, again I hid this fro a long time.

      I don’t store my insulin in the fridge–again, me being so secretive. (the pharmacist said that it’s OK outside the fridge for up to a few days). Idk if it’d be weird to store medication in the common fridge.

      I know I have more issues than I need to talk about in this thread regarding all of this, but in an effort to be more open and honest about these things, I wanted to get a sense of what’s appropriate in the workplace.

      Thanks all!

      1. LizB*

        I don’t think it’s weird to store medication in the common fridge, but I’d probably put it inside a lunchbox or other opaque container just for privacy.

      2. Diabetic Here*

        I’ve been Type 1 for 24 years and have used pen needles on and off as well as the pump. I will NOT use a bathroom to inject because if I won’t eat in there, I won’t inject in there either. I basically have no qualms about injecting anywhere. I try not to make it super obvious but I definitely don’t hide it. I’m not going to put of taking medication that literally keeps me alive because someone thinks I should hide my disease.

        Long story short, I basically don’t give a crap anymore and do what is best for myself.

      3. Bowl of Oranges*

        If you do need to put it in a fridge, could you get a lunchbox or small bag you could you put it in? We sometimes have people store medicine in our communal fridge (and in the past, breast milk), and I’ve never thought twice about it. As long as it’s not like leaking on my food, it’s of zero concern to me.

        I would also have no issue with you injecting at your desk! I had a classmate in college who would give herself injections during class. I only noticed because she sat right next to me, and even then it wasn’t disruptive.

      4. WellRed*

        I won’t go off track here, but have you considered the Freestyle libre? You get to wave a reader over the sensor and voila! A reading, no finger stick necessary. I just started using it this week. Feel free to hit me up on tomorrow’s thread if I can answer any questions for ya.

      5. sheep jump death match*

        I think it’s totally fine to do at your desk, but also that if you WANT privacy, you should brainstorm about how you could get it in a “reasonable accommodation” type way. Like, could your employer hang blinds or put up a window film on one conference room or office? Or give you a key/permission to use a usually off-limits place (I’ve worked at a couple places that had very nice built-out rooms converted to supply rooms that would have worked for this purpose)? Etc.

      6. Cristina in England*

        Sounds like most people who have been around T1 diabetics agree that it isn’t a big deal. My best friend in high school injected herself pretty much everywhere, dining hall, outside on the lawn, sports stadium, you name it. It’s a medical necessity. But she’s been doing it since she was 8 and there wasn’t any shame around her weight or anything like that. Like everyone else said, she was so fast you could barely even see her do it. Now she wears an insulin pump so she doesn’t do manual injections anymore. Maybe that might be an option down the road for you if you are uncomfortable injecting in front of people? You aren’t doing anything wrong though and no one should give you grief over taking your very important medication.

        1. Paquita*

          I second looking into a pump. Much better than 6 to 8 injections a day. DH has one, he has been taking insulin for 53 years.

      7. LibbyG*

        You’re drawing medicine from a vial? On one-piece dress days maybe you could load the syringe at your desk, pop the cap back on, take it with you to the bathroom and then stick yourself there.

    25. Oxford Coma*

      I would be afraid to perform injections in a cubicle or an open office because around here people are constantly stumbling into each other around blind corners. My building is basically an Escher nightmare.

    26. K. VonSchmidt*

      +1 For proper needle disposal. I had an employee who injected at his desk (it was semi private) and would just put the needles into an old coffee cup until full and then, take them home for disposal, but housekeeping complained about possible exposure (rightly so!). Our workplace will provide needle disposal containers and one was procured for him, but he acted put out by it.

    27. Hobgoblin*

      Totally fine. Well, maybe the dress lifting would be alarming (you’re talking about abdominal injections, I assume) but the actual injections is perfectly fine. I’ve seen people inject themselves so quickly and discreetly I barely noticed it. You could easily keep an empty Woolite container for old sharps in your desk and you’d be good to go. I also think there’s something to be said for demystifying diabetes and treating it with aplomb, rather like breastfeeding. It’s just a thing bodies do, no big deal.

    28. Forking Great Username*

      Well, I would probably have to walk straight into a bathroom stall and vomit, so I have to go with no.

      That sounds insensitive – I realize that my reaction to needles is over the top. I certainly don’t think you need to hide that you’re diabetic! I had gestational diabetes myself (and yes, i vomited every time I had to inject myself or check my sugar – I’m that squeamish about needles.)

      I know that I’m far from being the only person out there who reacts so strongly to needles, so I would appreciate it if you did it in the stall instead of out in the open.

      1. Cristina in England*

        I don’t like needles but I am not phobic so this is a genuine question, not sarcasm. Is it the thought of the needle that makes you vomit or actually seeing it? Because the injection process is so fast you could look the other way for literally less than 20 seconds and it would be over and done with. Whereas having her go into the stall would take several minutes, possibly more if her nearest toilet is far away. Not to mention that she would have nowhere clean to put items that have to remain sterile.

        1. Forking Great Username*

          It’s the thought of it – I literally felt light headed and slightly nauseous just reading/responding to this post! I realize that’s extreme and have taken (unsuccessful) steps to change my reaction…no luck so far.

          I wasn’t thinking going in a stall would take significantly longer since she said she currently does it in the bathroom, just not in a stall.

          1. OhNo*

            FWIW, I’m the same. I’m getting a bit woozy reading this post, too. I’m also currently on meds that I get injected every 2 weeks, and come close to passing out or vomiting every time. Having such an intense reaction to needles just sucks.

          2. Cristina in England*

            Wow, that sounds really intense. Good for you for trying to overcome it. Perhaps you will one day!

    30. Thlayli*

      Not a big deal at all. I was at a one day training course once and seated beside a strange man. At one point he took out a needle kit and quietly let me know he was going to inject insulin. I said ok cool and went back to looking at the trainer while he lifted his shirt and injected beside me. The only people who might have a problem with this is someone with a needle phobia.

    31. OhNo*

      My needle phobia is basically making a high-pitched screech in the back of my brain right now, just from thinking about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but:

      If you can inject yourself discreetly, and you can dispose of the needle safely, then in general I see no issue. It’s not any different from taking other medication at your desk, after all, and I do that multiple times per day. However, you might want to make some discreet inquiries with your coworkers, especially if your office has a culture of folks stopping by your desk.

      If I had a coworker who I knew was injecting themselves multiple times per day, and there wasn’t some known signal of when to avoid their desk (like, say, they always close the door when taking their insulin), I might literally never see them outside of a pre-scheduled meeting. I would be too worried by the idea of accidentally seeing the needle or catching them mid-injection. My phobia’s bad enough that even seeing a needle makes me extremely light-headed; accidentally seeing the injection would mean either vomiting or passing out entirely.

      It would be good to see if any of your coworkers would be similarly affected, just so you can give them a heads-up. If they are, I still see nothing wrong with injecting at your desk, if you let them know so they can deal with their phobia as needed. You might want to loop your boss in just to be on the safe side, though, in case it causes any work problems with coworkers down the road. I think diabetes is considered a disability under the ADA, and disability discrimination can crop up in weird ways.

      1. OhNo*

        Ah, I missed that you’re in an open office. In that case, you’d probably want to be even more sensitive to any coworker’s phobias, but you could still do it. If it was one of my coworkers, I’d still greatly appreciate some kind of signal (even if it’s just a quick, “Hey, OhNo, look away for a minute”), just so I don’t have to fight through the severe reaction I have.

    32. Thursday Next*

      I think the restroom is fine—no need to go into a stall. That’s probably where the sharps disposal is, right?

    33. Sami*

      Disclaimer- I haven’t read all the comments yet. But I also have diabetes. I inject where and when I need to. I’m discreet about it. It’s usually in the restroom at the sink. I put down a few paper towels first. I’ve also done it at a restaurant table if I’m wearing short sleeves. And definitely at my desk- but I can lock my door.
      I always put my used needle back in my little supply bag and take it home for disposal.
      I don’t give a crap about anyone’s needle phobia. I’m super fast and they can look away.

    34. ..Kat..*

      Well, I am a nurse. But, I think it is okay to discretely inject insulin at your desk. If your office is not used to this, would you be willing to provide some education about this at an office meeting?

    35. Gotham Bus Company*

      If there’s already a private room that’s available for new moms to pump milk, then that room should also be fair game for injecting insulin and any other medical needs. Otherwise, injecting in your office or cubicle should be fine.

      1. Traffic_Spiral*

        That’s what I was thinking – isn’t there a milk room, or an unused meeting room you can lock, or somewhere?

  21. onanon*

    My office is going through a reorganization, and because of the new title structure it’s going to look like I got demoted. In fact, in job duties, it sounds like I’m getting demoted. But nobody will admit that! They claim they are actually promoting me. On the other hand, the man that I work with who is getting the title that does accurately reflect my job duties has apparently been misrepresenting our working relationship to the owners, saying that he steps in to fix things for me when from my perspective he makes promises he never delivers on and leaves me scrambling every time. He threw me under the bus for staffing issues when he’s the one who never shows up to a staffing meeting.
    Anyway, now he’s going to be my boss, and I’m trying to figure out how to get my head on straight and be okay with that. Do I say “I’m taking the opportunity to cede some of the duties that I’m not being recognized for,” or do I power through to show them how wrong they were? How do I address being misrepresented to senior leadership?

    1. Trillion*

      Maybe address it with the new boss and get it laid out on the table?

      I’m chicken, so I wouldn’t do that. I’d likely start job hunting >_<

      1. neverjaunty*

        I don’t think job hunting in this situation is “chicken”. The bosses are too spineless to admit it’s a demotion and they are rewarding Mr. Slacker.

        1. onanon*

          To clarify that part, I used to have two titles. One was role-based, the other was seniority-based. The seniority-based ones were super wobbly and contentious, and most other people in my organization didn’t have a role-based one. Now they’re trying to/saying they are going to ALL role-based, but really the seniority structure is still there, just cloaked in different terms. The new role for me will be a step down from my old role-based title but a step up in the seniority-based one. The problem is, the role isn’t quite accurate to what I do, so I’m suspecting this is much more heavily seniority-based than they are admitting. Mr. Slacker has been at the organization substantially longer than me, so he was higher in the seniority-based titles, but we perform the same job currently. The new restructure suggests that we will no longer be performing the same job, but nobody seems to have wrapped their headds around that.

          1. onanon*

            I should also clarify, Slacker and I had the same/parallel role-based titles previously.

    2. Alternative Person*

      I’d go to the new bosses and lay out your current duties/how things work and see if you can get a more appropriate title. Focus on the exact nature of what you do, state the facts, resist the urge to bad mouth your co-worker, present evidence as needed. If your bosses are good, they’ll do right by you.

      Although, if this guy is going to be your new boss, I’d say double down on CYA because he’s already shown willingness to throw you under a bus and consider job searching. It might be better to move on than get into a protracted back and forth with a guy who’ll do everything to avoid doing his job.

    3. kbeers0su*

      I’d probably go to whoever your current supervisor is to get clarity on some of this so you have a better sense of what your plan should be. I’d ask about the promotion/demotion and try to understand how they think it’s a promotion if the title and responsibilities are being downgraded. If you feel like you’re pretty secure in your role (i.e. they’re not doing any layoffs in the restructuring, which would indicate that your job isn’t secure) you could also be a bit more bold and see how that goes; ask your current boss about the thought behind coworker becoming your new boss if you were equals before. See if you can get any info, or possibly find room to interject your concerns (like him being the issue with staffing, him not delivering on things). If in all of this you get signals that they’re set, then you know to job search. (But I’m the kind of person to go all in…)

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      If there is any opportunity, I would consider requesting a meeting with whoever would be in charge of your departments reorganization (i.e. not your new boss), under the premise of wanting to dispel any rumors relating to your job performance. Have an outline in your mind of what you want to go over. You could say, “I have recently found out/been told/heard that there may be a misunderstanding of how I manage my role and how my duties are routinely handled, so I would like to explain it from my perspective.” Then offer concrete examples of times that you’ve had to wait on your coworker-now-manager to provide X before you could complete Y, and other relevant situations, like him not showing up to staffing meetings. Then reiterate your desire to perform well and ask if they have any feedback for ways you could improve.

      As for the title/responsibility change I would embrace your line “I’m taking the opportunity to cede some of the duties that I’m not being recognized for” because accepting it is probably in your best interest, at least for now. If your coworker becomes an incompetent manager then he will likely shoot himself in the foot sooner than later, so that part will take care of itself.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Three options here:
      1. Go talk to the owners. They haven’t heard from you, they’ve only heard from Mr. Dingus.
      2. Let Mr. Dingus take on the new responsibilities and only do what is in your new job description. Let anything that falls under his duties drop. Mr. Dingus will start dropping balls. Let them fall.
      3. Job search. Something better will be out there.

    6. CatCat*

      I’d do whatever was the least amount of hassle to me at the existing job (probably just going with the flow as I cannot imagine showing them how wrong they are and having them realize it is going to be anything but an exercise in frustration). My energy would be focused on looking for a new job.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      The guy who was happy to make you do more work to cover his issues and take credit for successes or blame you for problems is going to be your boss? I would get out as soon as you can. He’s now going to have authority to make you do all the work and if you didn’t get credit before as peers, you can bet he’s going to take all the credit as your boss.

      I’d be concerned that since this is already in motion, going to senior leadership now to say anything is not going to go well, no matter how diplomatically it’s phrased. Clearly politics is in play, he played the game and it sounds like you didn’t realize that was happening until too late. Best case, senior leadership makes you equals(?) again and this guy is still not going to change.

      1. Gotham Bus Company*

        In fact, going to senior management might get OP fired. The brass are already on record protecting Slacker and will clearly continue to protect him.

        My suggestion to OP is to “keep on keeping on” and start that job search immediately.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s time to ramp up the job search. I don’t think there is any way to be okay with being “screwed over”.

  22. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I need a reality check. Is this hiring process as weird as I think it is?

    Sorry for the wall of text, here’s the TL;DR: I can’t tell if this hiring process is just thorough, or overbearing and red-flaggy. So far it’s been one half-hour phone interview, a full-day in person interview with 11 people, three reference calls which I have been told were unusually intense and in which the hiring manager said he thought I didn’t have the personality for the job, and now another one-hour phone interview, and if I get the offer they’ll also want to do a reference call with my current manager.

    Now the long version:

    I work in a client-facing field where the ability to quickly build authentic client relationships based on trust is essential to one’s success in the profession. I am doing quite well despite my short tenure both in the profession (3 years) and in my current job (1 year), and I know that my current manager, and his manager, are thrilled with my performance. I’ve been conducting a job search for geographic and family reasons, and was recently flown out to interview with a small, well-regarded organization. I thought the full-day interview went well and felt that I really “clicked” with all 11 interviewers, especially the hiring manager. I’d prepared the crap out of this interview, and came ready with answers to every behavioral question I could think of, as well as a 30-60-90 day plan. I was notified that I was one of three candidates to reach the reference stage.

    A few weeks ago, one of my references, a former colleague, let me know that she’d been called and spoken at length with the hiring manager. She told me she was surprised at the level of questions he asked. She relayed that he’d asked for very precise details about specific projects we’d worked on together; expressed concern about my moving on from my current role so quickly (which I expected); and said that he was concerned about my ability to be relatable and build authentic relationships with clients.

    I was shocked to hear this. I have never, never, been accused of inauthenticity or told that I lack the ability to build relationships. In fact, in my annual review last week, my current manager specifically praised my ability to build these relationships and credited that ability for much of my success. On one hand, I realize this is probably good management technique, and I appreciate being alerted that there’s something about how I came across in the interview day that raised concerns about my “people skills”. On the other hand, it made me question whether I’d be a fit for this organization – I don’t want to start a new job feeling like I’m already on thin ice or that my new colleagues are just waiting for me to fail! I also worry about how intensive this call was for my reference, and wonder if I need to apologize to my other two references – the organization’s president and now-retired vice president – for taking up so much of their time. Further, I’m slightly concerned that my references won’t be able to provide the level of detail the hiring manager is asking for; my work is quite independent and my previous manager was pretty hands off, not to mention I haven’t worked there in a year and I don’t know how many of those nitty-gritty details they’ll be able to call up on command.

    Once I heard about the reference call, I pretty much wrote this one off and figured I wasn’t the person they were looking for. However, a couple of days ago I got an email from the hiring manager asking me to schedule another one hour phone interview, which will be this coming Monday.

    So, what gives? Is this a normal hiring process and I’m just being sensitive? Or is this manager being overbearing before I even start working there? I have to imagine I’m still in the running, if the hiring manager is blocking out an hour to speak with me.

    1. Oxford Coma*

      if I get the offer they’ll also want to do a reference call with my current manager

      My eyebrows were already rising like floodwaters, but at this bit they shot clear off my face.

      1. irene adler*

        Me too!
        So do they reserve the right to rescind their offer after they do the reference call with your current manager? And if so, where does that leave you?

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          From what the hiring manager has told me, they’d make a “preliminary” offer but it wouldn’t be official until he speaks with my current manager. I would insist that we iron out all details including salary, benefits, and start date before putting them in contact.

          On the plus side, since I started looking for a new job there have been some opportunities that came up in my current role, so I’m actually no longer actively looking for a new employer. If this one doesn’t work out I’ll (relatively) happily stay here, and I’m nearly 100% confident I’d be welcome to stay even if I told my manager I was looking and asked him to provide a reference. Still, it’s a scary place to be!

          1. Master Bean Counter*

            Yeah, I’d run away from that. They want to put your current job in jeopardy for a soft offer. Nope.

            1. onanon*

              Right, with the added hurdle of your boss potentially getting pissed that you want to leave, or actively trying to sabotage your chances in order to keep you! Not saying that about your boss specifically TBLCS, but just acknowledging that these are ways that some bosses react to this news.

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        You know, that was actually the least of my concerns in this whole process! My manager loves my work, knows some of the reasons I’m looking to move on already, and I’m sure he would give me a good reference. I wouldn’t put them in contact until they’ve made (and I’ve accepted) an offer including salary, benefits, and start date; though as Irene says below, if they (for whatever reason) rescind the offer after speaking with my manager I’d be in a pretty tough spot.

    2. CAA*

      It’s a pretty extensive process, but it sounds like it might be not be that far out of the norm in your field? Some places do require a reference from your current employer after you accept their conditional offer. It’s not common, but I’ve done it once as the manager giving the reference, and I’ve heard of a few other places doing it.

      I think that the extra interview is to help the manager address any concerns he still has after speaking with your references. Talk to all of them and try to find out what issues came up in their calls that you’ll need to address.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I’ve never heard of a process this extensive, though I admittedly haven’t been through all that many hiring processes. I actually don’t have a problem with them talking to my current manager, once they’ve made (and I’ve accepted) an offer including salary, benefits, and start date. I have a great relationship with my current manager, he loves my work, and he does know some of the reasons I’m looking to move on so quickly.

        Great suggestion to check in with all three references so I can be prepared to address any concerns he has (although it seems like my preparedness is what made him think I’m unrelatable, ha!)

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      “and said that he was concerned about my ability to be relatable and build authentic relationships with clients.”

      Why would a potential manager even say this to your reference? I would think it would be better if the hiring manager was completely neutral. I’ve never given a reference where the hiring manager has offered feedback on the candidate. They’ve just asked questions and said thanks. Perhaps I’m the one experiencing the unusual part, is it more normal to tell references what they think of candidates? I would just think they might get candidates hopes up or down (like in this situation.) That and the potential speaking to the current manager would be a bit of red flags for me, although not huge ones.

      Also 11 people in a one day interview! I would die. Kudos to you though, you sound like you nailed it. I hope that in your conversation on Monday you’re able to get a better feel for things. I don’t really have great advice to offer but am sending you good luck!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Ok, I’m glad it’s not just me who thought it was weird! In my experience managers are usually neutral and just ask questions about the candidate from the reference’s experience, not provide their own assessment. I guess in some ways it might help my candidacy since my reference was able to reassure him about my abilities, but I just don’t get why he would bring up his own assessment instead of just asking “what is your experience of the candidate doing XYZ?”

        It was a long and exhausting interview day for sure, but I honestly feel like I did everything in my power to succeed. If they don’t want to hire me, it’s because I wasn’t the right candidate to work with their team.

        Thanks for your positive vibes!

        1. DCR*

          I think it is unusual but not unheard of. The last time I switch jobs, I know the hiring manager expressed some of his reservations during his reference check. The job was in the same field but a different subsets and he was worried it wasn’t a good fit/I wouldn’t be happy long term, but by raising that with my references they were able to address his concerns – which I think benefited me.

    4. Enough*

      “and said that he was concerned about my ability to be relatable and build authentic relationships with clients.”
      I’m looking at is as devil’s advocate. This is one way to get the reference to actually state any concerns they have and not just say you are wonderful. but need full context and tone. And maybe the hiring manager has some issues with you that are more related to past experiences than with you. See anon anony’s post above.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Could be. I just re-read the email my reference sent after the call, and she said that while my responses were exactly what the committee was looking for on paper, they were delivered without emotion. So I wonder if I may have just rehearsed my answers too many times.

    5. KC*

      It sounds like to me the interviewer/reference checker may be asking more pointed questions because of past history with this position or personal experience. Maybe they had someone previously in this role that had issues building relationships and wanted to make sure their new hire was the best fit. I wouldn’t take it personally.

    6. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      The offer contingent on a reference check with your current manager is pretty common (very common in my industry, and I know I’ve seen it come up multiple times on AAM, so its not just a weird niche industry thing). I don’t love it or necessarily agree with it, but it’s not totally out there or bizarre.

      The intensity of the reference check is that only part that pinged on my radar as a potential red flag. Is the person that conducted the reference check (the hiring manager I think you mentioned) going to be your direct manager? If so, then yeah – I’d see how the follow up call goes with them. I wouldn’t worry about it quite as much if they were not going to be my direct boss.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I don’t know that it’s incredibly common in my industry, but it makes sense in my situation since I’m leaving a job after only a year. I totally get that he’d want to make sure I’m not being forced out or on the verge of being fired.

        The hiring manager would be my direct manager. I spent about 90 minutes with him in my interview day, and I get the sense he’s very thoughtful and intentional, and trying to be a good manager. They have very low turnover on their team so it stands to reason that he is careful and conscientious in their hiring decisions. I actually felt that I connected with him very well and I left the interview feeling like he’d be a great manager for me.

        I’m very curious about this call on Monday, mostly because he asked me to block off a whole hour. What on earth could he have to say that will take an hour?!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I’d run. This is just the interview. Working there will NOT be easier. I’d bet that Alison would say these folks have no idea how to interview and hire people. And I also wonder if they will try to micromanage every word that comes out of your mouth because they are “all about relationships”. People who are all about relationships demonstrate that they don’t talk about it. Speaking of which, it sounds like they are all about relationships EXCEPT for their applicants.

  23. GigglyPuff*

    I’m so peeved right now. For the first time since I started working for state govt I used my community service leave last week. It was in the same week that I worked overtime, which as a govt I get comp time for it. Well apparently our system, it being in the same week pulled the community service leave from the comp time.

    I asked our HR liaison about it, she hasn’t gotten an answer for actual HR, but pretty much told me, that no that’s correct, comp time comes out of the pot first no matter what. Um no, I’ve been here over 3 years, the only thing comp time gets pulled to cover is vacation leave. I’m pretty sure she’s 100% wrong about everything but our HR person is out this week (which is why she didn’t get an answer yet). I mentioned that, if that’s true it should really be in our written policies and she was like, well you were told at orientation. Um my orientation was over 3 years ago, which is why I referenced the written policy for community service leave before I took it. Our policies only mention comp time being pulled to cover vacation nothing else. She also kept making jokes about managing my time better, which the more I replayed it in my head the more it peeved me off.

    So I’m pretty sure our system incorrectly takes comp time to cover community service leave if it’s taken during the same week. My coworker had this problem and got it fixed after raising a stink, but makes me wonder how many other people are getting screwed and not noticing. If it is an error and gets fixed, I’m thinking about emailing the state HR office about the issue, (or probably will even if they don’t fix it, so it’ll get added to the manual).

    1. You don't know me*

      I would continue to fight this. It doesn’t make sense they would take your comp time because you were doing community service and from what I am reading, they have community service leave available for you to use.

    2. kbeers0su*

      This is super annoying. But I’d just bear with it until you get an official HR answer. Too many people stubbornly believe they’re right when they really don’t know the answer, and your HR liaison may be one of those.

      And if HR comes back that the liaison is right, then I think you can have a very calm chat with them about the written policy, citing coworker who had the same issue. It’s really in HR’s best interest to make sure that their policies are clearly spelled out. And if you come at this as a reasonable person, they’re likely to respond reasonably (unless you know your HR department to be unreasonable).

    3. Only here for the teapots*

      Have you talked to your union rep? They aren’t always helpful, but if the community service time is part of your contract they should be on board with helping you deal with HR.

      1. Anna Canuck*

        If you’re union, this is the part where you talk to your rep. This is exactly the situation unions are meant for.

  24. Super stressed*

    I think (hope?) I’m going to get a job offer soon. One senior person (the manager of my potential manager) I interviewed with mentioned that the position could come along with some perks (specifically, paying for a certification) that my potential manager explicitly said wouldn’t come with the position. How do I broach this topic if/when I get an offer? At a minimum I want to set my own expectations, but if certifications are on the table I think I’d want them written into the offer/contract, and I’m not sure how to do that because it’s separate from salary? I’ve never had to negotiate something like this before!

    1. Seriously?*

      If the senior person said it could come with he position, but your potential manager explicitly stated that it does not, then it probably is not on the table and might come across badly to your manager if you try to push. If the senior persons said that it does come with the benefit and your manager said it didn’t, then I would ask for clarification. If this perk is important to you, then the best way to address it is to say that you heard X from Bob and Y from Sue and just want to make sure you understand whether or not that is a possibility. See how they react.

  25. Trillion*

    I’m failing so hard at my new job.

    I made a mistake picking this one. I was trying to be so careful because I wanted to stay at this job for 4-5 years at least!

    My manager has explicitly stated that I was hired to replace two people. And she’s also stated that the people above HER boss don’t care that the department is overworked. This is not a good place to work. Maybe my therapist will up my meds so I can just live through this in a medicated haze until it’s over.

    2. LKW*

      She told you after you started that you were hired to replace two people? That sucks but is a great reason to leave that you can explain on interviews. “During interviews I was told the company really stood behind work life balance but unfortunately after I started I was told explicitly that I was replacing two people and that work life balance was not a concern for upper management.”

      Good luck.

      1. Trillion*

        Man, are you psychic. You are spot on. I was promised W/L balance in the interviews.

        Interviewers can lie too!

        1. Ama*

          Well, the one good thing is that you’ll be able to get some good feedback from how future prospective employers react to why you are leaving this job. Anyone who doesn’t understand why being told after you were hired that you were replacing two full time employees is a problem is not someone you want to work for.

        2. Bea*

          This isn’t unheard of at all, it upsets me to admit that I’ve seen it happen right in front of my face. I suggest you use this as an opportunity to learn, they lied. BUT REMEMBER that not everyone is a liar. Don’t let it taint your perception going into your next job, you will recover from this toxic place!!! I know from experience.

    3. You don't know me*

      If possible, you should get out now. It sounds like the job was misrepresented to you and you shouldn’t have to medicate yourself just to make it through the day. LKW gives a good explanation for you to use.

      1. Trillion*

        Yeah, I think this is going to be a blip on the resume. Fortunately the market for my skills in incredibly hot right now (my old job has tried twice to get me back), so I’m not in too bad of a situation.

    4. Lilac*

      Don’t just stick it out with medication. Your health and happiness are worth far more than that. Let this be a blip and move on to something better.

      1. Trillion*

        Thank you. I’m in therapy specifically because I want to stop giving up when things get hard, but I don’t know if therapy will be able to help be with this before I reach a breaking point and do something stupid like quit without another job lined up.

        1. Seriously?*

          I think you should mentally rephrase the reason for therapy. Some situations are not worth sticking out. You don’t want to quit only because it got hard. You want to recognize which situations are worth the effort. You aren’t quitting because the position is hard. You are quitting because they misrepresented what the position.

        2. Nashira*

          There is hard and then there is unreasonable. Demanding that you work two people’s jobs is pretty unreasonable. Can you talk with your therapist about finding ways to determine when you’re dealing with unreasonable expectations from others vs your fear that a thing is too hard and you can’t do it?

          Like for real, these folks lied to you about work/life balance and expect you to just suck it up. They aren’t being reasonable.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Since this is sort of an urgent state of things, why not figure out how you can work on a job search every day? Even if you just look at one site or one job but do it every day?

          I tend to believe we have a finite amount of brain space. While you are looking into coping mechanisms it might be more to the point to look for a new place on a regular basis. While I don’t think that every day is doable (I said that for emphasis, as it sounds like your setting is Not Good At All), I think that clearing the personal calendar to have available time several times a week can be doable. Take steps to bail yourself out while you look around for added help. It’s a good life habit to bring in support as we work away on the stuff that needs fixing.

    5. Bea*

      Don’t feel stuck!! I take every job assuming I’ll retire there, that’s my mentality, I’m all in. But if they suck, you leave. Don’t suffer just to follow your idea of staying long term. You will waste 4-5 years and be miserable, it’s not worth it.

      1. Trillion*

        Thank you so much. Every day lends more credibility to the idea that this is not for me.

    7. I See Real People*

      As much as I don’t care for my current position, I fear almost more making a change to a better job only to find out it’s worse. I hope you get a good turn soon!

  26. Essi*

    So I have a new coworker who started about 2 months ago.
    This person identifies as genderfluid and I’ve been having trouble understanding this. I had never heard of nonbinary people until this year. When they started they informed everyone they shift through genders and have a different pronoun every day. They wear a nametag with that day’s preferred pronouns and wants us to use whichever pronouns are correct for that day. I don’t mind using preferred pronouns but I’m finding it difficult to change pronouns each day (there are about 5-6 different sets of pronouns being used total). Am I just being insensitive since I’m unfamiliar with this kind of identity? I don’t want to upset them but I find this odd and tough to get used to. Would it be wrong if I asked to use one constant set of pronouns?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Yes, it would be wrong for you to ask to use a constant set of pronouns.

      This person is adequately communicating how they wish to be addressed daily and you should respect that.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Can someone explain sympathetically how pronouns work in this situation?

        If I am talking directly to someone, I use the pronoun “you.” It’s very rare that I would stand in front of Albion and talk about what Albion is saying or doing or thinking. Using pronouns would come up if they aren’t there–if spoken, I might not have seen Albion and have any idea of the day’s pronouns. If written, then it only matches that day and not the date on which it’s read.

        I completely get Hey, tell me the pronouns you like and I’ll use them. But as with names, that’s usually static–I don’t call someone Bob on Monday and Robert on Tuesday and Kyle on Wednesday, always checking their nametag before speaking. It seems like the distinction between “I used to go by Bob but now that Other Robert is gone, I am going by my preferred name Robert at work” and “Yesterday I corrected you when you called me Bob, but today you should call me Bob.” The latter is in practice going to feel like you’re laying out a minefield for people to always call you the wrong thing, because what the wrong thing is changes so frequently.

        1. Queen of the File*

          If I was in this position I would probably ask my coworker if they had a preference or default for times when I didn’t know what the day’s pronouns were (such as referring to the person in an email when they were on vacation or whatever). I’d still do my best to use the preferred pronouns of the day though (or avoid using pronouns if I didn’t know)–it does sound challenging but it’s important to me to be supportive.

          1. Morwen the Grad Student*

            This would be my approach as well–do my best to remember and use whatever was on the nametag (if I saw it, or if I can ask someone else when talking about that person), but also ask the person if they have a default. I’d probably end up structuring my sentences about that person to avoid pronouns, too, if it’s not too clunky (assuming they have a constant name).

        2. Not a Mere Device*

          I think the way this works is, when you don’t know what pronoun they’re using that day, you refer to them by name or default to “they.” It may feel a little weird to use their name more often than other people’s, like “I talked to Dana about this. Dana said the job should be done by Friday, if nothing else urgent came up and Dana’s boss didn’t assign Dana a different task,” but it’s English, and reasonably clear.

          I’m recommending that you default to “they” because that’s a pronoun for nonbinary people, and it’s also used for people whose gender you don’t know for whatever reason. In this case, the reason is “it changes, and I don’t know what it is today” rather than “I barely saw the person who was driving that car, and wasn’t paying attention to that.”

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            A relative of mine is genderfluid and varies their self-identifying pronouns from day to day, but is always willing to accept ‘they’ for the same reasons you just gave. They may know what their gender of the day is, but you don’t necessarily know it (or remember it), so you use the same pronoun you would for anybody else whose gender you didn’t know.

      2. LCL*

        No, this person is over the top playing a game with their coworkers. I fully support the idea that everybody should be addressed how they wish to be addressed, INCLUDING honorifics which most people disagree with me on. But changing every day is playing a game. That has nothing to do with one’s genderfluid identity. I think this exact situation has been sent in to this site before, and the consensus then was the coworker was being a jerk.
        Instead of being the pronoun police, refuse to play their game. Adress them as coworker or Joaquin or by their job title.

        1. neverjaunty*

          This. It’s absolutely proper to address people by their preferred pronouns, but a daily switch is not asking for recognition of preferred identity.

        2. Pollygrammer*

          I agree that it’s like 90% a game and/or pure attention-seeking. I’m betting this person is quite young. However, I don’t think Essi can refuse to play without coming across pretty badly. I’d just avoid pronouns.

        3. Kathleen_A*

          It is just not right to expect people to switch from day to day. It’s completely unreasonable, and yeah, I do think it’s a game of some sort (though possibly the coworker hasn’t admitted this to themselves). I wouldn’t be too surprised if, in a year or so, they decide that they want their gender to be fluid from hour to hour rather than day by day.

          So I’d just avoid pronouns aside from “you,” It might make for some awkward sentences, but it’s your coworker who’s brought the awkward, not you.

        4. BuildMeUp*

          I’m confused as to why people think this is a “game” – it sounds like this person fits the definition of genderfluid, which is what they identify as. Being genderfluid means that a person doesn’t identify with only one gender and may feel closer to or identify more with a certain gender at a given time.

          I’m not sure jumping to negative assumptions about the OP’s coworker is helpful here either way, and this approach seems pretty combative.

          1. Thlayli*

            It’s not that people think the coworker isn’t genderfliud and is making up that part of it. It’s the plethora of pronouns that is being seen as a “game” and unreasonable. They/them is a perfectly fine, acceptable, gender-neutral pronoun that refers to all genders and none. I can see a genderfluid person wanting to switch between he/him on days they feel particularly masculine, she/her on days they feel particularly feminine and they/them, on days they feel like anything other than binary, but 5-6 separate sets of pronouns? That’s really uneccesary and it does come across as “testing” the coworkers or “playing a game”.

            1. Kathleen_A*

              Yes, exactly. Genderfluidity isn’t a game. But trying to force well-meaning coworkers (because only a well-meaning person would even attempt this) to figure out from day to day what pronoun is the “correct” one…well, I think that is a game – or maybe “test” is the better word. What’s more, it’s a test that nearly every one of those coworkers will fail, even with the best intentions in the world. It’s not right to make people work so hard to do the right thing.

        5. cryptid*

          Wow, how delightfully transphobic of you. This person being genderfluid isn’t a game.

          1. Kathleen_A*

            No, genderfluidity is not the game (or test or whatever). What is a game or a test, and an unwinnable one at that, is making it well-nigh impossible for your coworkers to address you “correctly” from day to day. That is either a game or a test, and it’s one that one’s coworkers will *inevitably* lose.

    2. Super stressed*

      Can you just refer to them by their name and avoid pronouns use as much as possible?
      I think that the way you’re feeling is reasonable…dealing with shifting pronouns is certainly confusing, particularly if you’re not used to it, and I think this could get confusing if the person deals with clients (especially since there are 5-6 pronouns). But, it also seems like your coworker is doing their best to communicate their own needs as best they can. So, I don’t think you can really ask for a single set of pronouns.

      1. Joielle*

        I agree – just use the person’s name all the time. Even if a sentence turns out a little awkward now and again because you’re trying not to use a pronoun, I still think that’s the best solution.

    3. Buffy*

      Could you maybe compromise and use gender neutral ones? (Like they.) I don’t know much about this topic personally though…

    5. Ali G*

      I think you need to do what you can to accommodate them. I would definitely not ask for one set of pronouns because that is the exact opposite of being gender fluid. It would be like, if you were a woman with a historically male name, like Ryan, and someone was like “I can never remember you are a woman because of your name so is it OK if i just refer to you as ‘he’?”
      Just do your best to be friendly and accommodating. Likely this coworker knows this is new to a lot of people. They might even be open to discussing it if you are interested in learning more about their experiences.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I disagree with your analogy, Ali G. It’s more like, “Some days I want to be called George, and some days I want to be called Amelia, and some days I’d rather be Chris.” Expecting your coworkers to use your correct name is perfectly fair, and expecting them to use your preferred pronoun is also fair. But expecting them to change to different names or pronouns from day to day is absolutely unreasonable.

      2. Working Hypothesis*

        “I would definitely not ask for one set of pronouns because that is the exact opposite of being gender fluid. It would be like, if you were a woman with a historically male name, like Ryan, and someone was like “I can never remember you are a woman because of your name so is it OK if i just refer to you as ‘he’?””

        Not really. There are gender-neutral pronouns — they/them is the most common, but some people use zie/zir or a few other variations — which are meant precisely to be a single, consistent set of pronouns which does not inherently imply a consistent gender to the person being referred to. Most genderfluid people I know (and I know several) use one of these sets consistently, regardless of whether they are male, female, both or neither that day.

        I agree it would be inappropriate to request that one be permitted to use a GENDERED single set of pronouns for someone who changes gender at intervals. But as far as I can tell, it’s much more usual for genderfluid people to use a consistent *non-gendered* pronoun set than to ask that people use different pronouns on different days.

    6. SpaceNovice*

      For not having heard about it until this year, you’re being very considerate. I agree with the above suggestions that you should try to use their pronouns as much as possible since they’re doing what they can to communicate them, and using the name more often is also a good alternative, especially if you don’t what their pronouns are for the day yet.

      (Also as an aside, genderfluid is just one of many non-binary identities, just in case you don’t know.)

    7. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I’m also nonbinary, and would like to be out at work, but I think changing pronouns daily or using ones very hard to pronounce is a line I would never cross at work. You’re not wrong to feel stressed about it, and I think that level of accommodation goes well beyond what most workplaces would allow.

      If I come out, I’ll just be “they” all the time. But for now, just use the person’s name if it confuses you, the constant change.

      1. Fiennes*

        My partner and I are in the very preliminary phase of planning an overseas move. It’s very exciting! However, while my line of work allows me to live pretty much anywhere I can have a laptop and WiFi, his does not. This is actually fine: for the past few years he’s been less satisfied with his line of work and considering a change. It will be as easy or easier for him to start over somewhere else—namely, Italy.

        However, while he’s exploring options, he still wants to be able to contribute financially. So he’s considering doing a TEFL course. He has taught music part time for a while, and so knows that he both likes teaching in general and is good at it. If he could parlay that into part time work fairly quickly, it would help us be financially steady during the transition. I guess my question is—is getting such work relatively easy? Or is it something you train for and then have nowhere to go? We don’t need it to be *hugely* lucrative, or even self-supporting, but we’d like to know the work is out there. (Right now we’re considering the Bologna area, but all things are flexible—it’s not even impossible that we’d wind up in another E.U. nation.)

        Those of you who’ve done this, what are the prospects? What are the pitfalls and misconceptions?

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          If you mean TEFL while living overseas in an non-English-speaking country, relatives did this. (TEFL in an English speaking country would be harder to find jobs, due to a comparative glut of native English speakers.) It is usually pretty easy to find some sort of assignment if you are a native English speaker. (And speak and write well to the ears/eyes of other English speakers.) My relatives did it for two years–wanted to give kids the experience of living in a foreign culture–and then moved back, taking up their professional careers here again. (College professors, teaching English at college level when they were overseas as part of a program.)

          I gather from another comment on here that as a thing to do straight out of university, people didn’t advise doing it for a long time and then trying to parlay the skillset into other work. I inferred that “I was raised speaking English” is so heavily the job requirement that it’s hard to convincingly parlay the experience into other skills you demonstrated.

          1. Traveling Teacher*

            Just FYI, because these acronyms are sometimes confusing: TEFL doesn’t exist in an English-speaking country. It’s TESOL instead, meaning “as a second language” (even though that’s often woefully inaccurate! Many students already speak 3+ languages!) It’s because the entire atmosphere is completely different when you’re surrounded by English vs another language.

            I’m actually really confused by the second part of your comment, though! For one, many TEFL teachers are non-native speakers–this is sometimes viewed by employers as a strike, as they sometimes are seeking native speakers at all costs, but some of the best TEFL teachers aren’t native speakers. They know the language inside and out and have much better insight into what works to learn it, particularly if teaching people who speak their actual native language. Both native and non-native TEFL professionals are needed. Also, a competent TEFL teacher will have much more to contribute than a mere accent–for example, I don’t think people should teach TEFL if they can’t explain why and when we use “a/an” instead of “the” and vice versa. Otherwise, they’ll just be miserable!

            Additionally, I’ve found my decade+ of TEFL experience right out of university to be highly valuable when crossing into other types of employment–employers know that you’re adaptable, a great communicator, and that you can work in a challenging environment, just to name a few–plus that you’ve got a great command of the English language. Pretty big assets, in my opinion!

            Just to be clear, I’m not at all offended, but I’ve found this to be a common perspective of people outside of the field and wanted to put my two cents in.

        3. Alternative Person*

          It depends a lot on where you’re going but if you’re going to Europe, I’d suggest taking something like CELTA in advance as of going. It’s a 120 hour course and helps getting a good foot in the door for a lot of places, especially reputable international companies and sometimes better rates of pay than if you have something like a TEFL short course (though even if you only have time/money to do a short course, it’s better than nothing, that was what I started with (thought be extra careful, some are not good, try to find an accredited one (also, some people make out CELTA to be the holy grail of starting work as an English teacher but anecdotally, a lot of places/people administering CELTA/DELTA are Ivory Tower Academics who think every classroom has a projector, computer with an internet connection and hours to devote to planning a 45 minute lesson, the TEFL weekend course and TESOL online course I later took were somewhat more pragmatic and still got me jobs))).

          I haven’t worked in Europe, but I’ve never had a hard time finding work where I am. Check local job boards and companies like International House to see whats available in the area. Finding good work though has been a struggle due to a relative glut of teachers. I was pretty lucky that my first couple of jobs were decent and allowed me to accumulate skills/experience that I could parlay later on into better earning jobs (both regular and through dispatch/contracting companies). A friend of mine does a lot of private tutoring (there are websites that let teachers set up profiles) and earns really well.

          Unfortunately, in part because of the market where I am, I topped out in my current regular position and got stuck because CELTA is the minimum benchmark wanted by top level, staff supporting companies. I don’t have it and my company (among lots of others in the area) won’t even partially fund further training. I self funded a DELTA (the level up from CELTA) (using a lot of my very limited paid holiday time to attend the in-person portion of the course), to get my CV in a state to get my foot in the door with high level companies and well, I’ve gotten a contract job and an interview out of it, but the real results will be seen once I finish it.

          Over the course of interviewing, I’ve seen a lot of very detailed contracts with a lot of stipulations regarding a lot of things. Be super careful about what you sign. I turned down one FT job in part because the advertised salary (already on the low side for my skills/experience) was only if certain performance requirements were met. A part time job I interviewed for had very convoluted rules about absences, per class rates, resigning and restrictive stipulations about work for other companies (they also wanted me to ‘pre-sign’, I didn’t and withdrew my application in an e-mail. They then rejected me). Be on the look out for all the usual things you’d watch out for in contracts and back away from anything that looks off to you.

          I can’t speak to the exact prospects as I’m not familiar with the area you’re moving to, but in my experience good English teachers can earn a pretty high per hour rate, even at mid-tier companies with not many qualifications and even higher as a private one to one tutor (check your tax rules before going the self employed route). Make sure the visa allows you to teach/do paid work.

          The one big issue I have with a lot of people entering the profession is they think it will be easy. But it is hard work, especially to be good at the job, a good teacher is doing a lot of difficult to notice work. If though, you work hard, you will be rewarded.

      2. Manders*

        Yes, I run in circles with a lot of nonbinary folks, and 6 potential pronouns changing daily is… a lot. I’d do my best to be respectful in this situation, but there’s no guaranteed proper etiquette here because so few people do this that there isn’t really an established set of rules for it.

    8. Leave it Beaver*

      I’m curious about the nametag – how would the change in pronouns be communicated to someone over the phone or via email or to a blind person. I’m wondering whether the initial conversation of the day would begin with a statement about the proper pronoun of the day. (This is sounding very snarky in written form, but it’s a sincere question)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I was wondering that too (for phones & emails). Or if they’re just facing away from you and you need to get their attention. Or you need to talk to someone else referencing this person, but haven’t seen the person yet that day to get their preferred pronouns of the day. I assume this person is also listing them in their email signature?

        I get being stressed a bit about it – I’d want to use whatever pronouns the person wants me to use for them, but having the preferred pronouns switch daily does feel over-complicated. I think I’d just use the person’s name in place of any pronouns until I memorized better what each pronoun “set” is- it’s still referring to them, and I don’t feel anxious trying to remember/sneak a name tag look to verify what pronouns are ‘good’ for the day, especially with 5-6 sets of them. Once I got more used to each set (mostly with pronunciation, I am not confident personally I read them the way they’re actually supposed to be pronounced) I think I’d be more comfortable trying to use them in a conversation. But I also know that this is partially rooted in my own anxiety issues, so I’d try best I could.

    9. ThatGirl*

      Nonbinary is actually not the same as genderfluid, although they’re similar. NB people tend to not feel male or female; genderfluid feel more femme/masculine/male/female/nb depending on a variety of things.

      I know it can seem a little brain-muddling to shift pronouns daily, just because people are creatures of habit – I would try to stick with their name as much as possible, and use the pronoun in front of you (or “they” if need be) as a fallback.

    10. You don't know me*

      Props to you for at least trying but I could see how this could get taxing. I’d probably focus on ways to not use pronouns at all. Refer to the person only by name or something else not gendered. Like instead of saying “s/he can help you” I’d say “Alex can help you” or “my coworker over here can help you”

    11. Susan Sto Helit*

      I think in your position I would use the preferred pronouns when necessary – but I would also try to avoid using pronounce as often as possible (using plenty of ‘Aquaria says’ rather than ‘she/he/they/etc says’). You can use phrases like ‘I spoke to Aquaria, who said xxx’, ‘I’ll email Aquaria for directions on the best way forward’, ‘I asked Aquaria, and the general consensus/opinion is xxx’.

      All ways of rephrasing sentences that would generally use pronouns and will help you skate around them if you’re struggling to remember what’s correct.

    12. only acting normal*

      I’m struggling with how anyone, even someone extremely gender fluid, has 5 or 6 sets of pronouns!
      He/him/his, she/her/hers, they/them/their, xe/xim/xir…
      Are they using mixes? He/her/xir?
      I’m a big fan of the singular they personally, and I can understand a preference for the alternative neutrals, and I can see a space for someone switching between male/female/a-set-of-neutral pronouns, but more than that seems a little… redundant? (Not sure that’s the right word, ironically.)
      Regardless, I’d certainly respect, and try my best to follow, the nametag of the day.

      1. Rozine*

        There are dozens of pronouns I have heard, I suppose it could be ae/aes, ro/ros, etc. Plus there are estimated to be over 70 genders so it’s certainly possible.

        1. only acting normal*

          I know there are complexities to gender, and I know there are lots of gender-neutral options out there, what I can’t figure out is why someone needs to use more than one of the neutral pronoun sets. Are there subtleties between xe/xir and ae/aes etc that I’ve missed?

    13. Master Bean Counter*

      Is this person in an obvious spot when you walk in every morning? Because that’s the only way I’d ever know what to call them that day. Failing that I think just referring to this person by their name, and only their name, seems to be the best solution. Even if it becomes a bit clunky.

    15. Anna Canuck*

      1) They’re screwing with you all.
      2) Just use “you, they, them”. He can be he, she can be she, I don’t care and I will do my best to call people what they wish. But not changing daily, hourly, or mid-conversation. They get a nice generic genderless term and they can express their own self however they want.
      And if they made a deal out of it, I’d just say “I find it tough to consult your name tag before every conversation, so I’m just going to stick to neutral. Feel free to do the same for me, if you want.” I don’t care if I’m “they”, even if it would be random.

    16. Trillion*

      Kudos to you for being open to this!!

      But switching pronouns daily put undue burden on the people around this person.

      If this were me, I’d stick with gender neutral pronouns.

    17. Grayson*

      Much like @overcaffeinatedandqueer (waves), I’m genderfluid too. However I have the privilege of being out at my super conservative job (to my government clients and to my company). I present male 100% of the time at work, and ask my coworkers to use ‘he’ pronouns. (The rest of the time it’s all wibbly-wobbly over here.)

      Changing your pronouns every day is… *thinks* I don’t know that I like the word ‘excessive’ but it’s certainly setting an expectation. I like another commenter’s idea of using the person’s name whenever possible. It’s just a stand in for a pronoun and it’s not incorrect.

    18. Binky*

      Maybe you can ask for a default set of pronouns? That way you can be respectful if you haven’t seen this person on that day (and thus haven’t seen the daily set of pronouns), you’ve forgotten, or if you’re talking about the past or future (i.e. if you’re talking about how this person’s work has improved, you’d be encompassing days where this person was using various different pronouns, likewise if you’re talking about work that this person will take on in the future).

    19. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think it’s insensitive to forget. And it’s human nature to forget once in a while.

      As I read along here, I am thinking to myself that if I worked with one person who did this I *might* be okay. But if I worked with several people who changed their pronouns daily, I will mess that up. No matter how hard I try.

      I am there to work. I will help people and accommodate people as often as possible. However, my primary point of being there is to work. So, you may want to consider asking the boss how much accommodation is necessary here from a company standpoint. How does the boss expect you to respond to the changing pronouns?

      OTH, you may want to chat with the person. Ask them, “What happens if I am having a bad day, super tired, distracted or maybe getting sick and I mess up the pronoun that day? How do I handle that with consideration?”
      I am thinking I would start by asking the person how to handle a mess up. Because I know the longer we work together the more and more likely it will be that I will mess up on the pronoun no matter how hard I try. This is foreseeable as I mess up on names now, not often but it does happen.

    21. Not Alison*

      What if you never referred to this individual with a pronoun – just always use the preferred name (i.e. Bob is taking Bob’s folder to the conference room).

  27. Ali G*

    Good sign or bad sign?
    I’ve applied for an ED position at a small local non-profit. I was referred to them by a recruiter (she is not doing the recruiting, she just passed me along as a personal favor to someone she knows there).
    They replied quickly with their timeline:
    2Q – ID qualifications and needs
    3Q – ID potential candidates and start interviews
    4Q – final decision
    So right now, they are on ID’ing needed qualifications and other needs, but they aren’t going to hire until much later this year…like September at the earliest.
    I see this in two ways – one, I know from the recruiter that they want to change up how they operate, so it could be a good thing they are being so deliberate out this – they need the right person. Also, I can see from their 990 that the pay is not spectacular (I would be OK with it) so maybe they just think it will take a long time to find the right person for the pay they can offer. OR they are so controlled by their Board (they have a lot of long-term Board members) that this process is artificially drawn out to appease someone or a group of people. Which just screams red flags to me. IF I am to be the ED I want to run the org. Not be a talking head for a bunch of people that see the org as “theirs.”
    I could ask the recruiter her take, but I don’t want to seem like I am using her for information at this stage. I’ve worked at NPs for almost 10 years, so I am not going into this blind.
    Other NP peeps – what are your thoughts?

    1. Ama*

      I do think if a nonprofit is going to hire a new ED from outside the nonprofit a deliberate process is the best one, and I think their transparency about it is encouraging, but I think your concerns are valid. Do you know if they have an ED currently? The timeline reminds me a bit of when our previous ED retired, and the board had her entire last year to conduct their search. If it’s a situation like that I wouldn’t be as concerned as if they do not currently have an ED and yet are still committed to this slow process — although even then I could maybe be appeased if they have a sufficient explanation (for example, if they are transitioning from family foundation to public foundation, or if it’s the first time the ED is not going to be one of the founders and/or board members — both of which are things my org has had to deal with in the past, although prior to my arrival).

      I think unfortunately that unless you know someone already working at the org that could maybe give you the inside scoop, some of these questions aren’t going to be fully answerable until the interview stage. (Although I think you could definitely ask the recruiter about the current or most recent ED and see what she’s willing to say.)

      1. Ali G*

        Thanks! They do currently have an ED (at least their website says they do), so that’s a very good point. Maybe they see her staying through the end of the year for the entire transition.
        They are also looking to make substantial changes to their program offerings, so I think that plays into it as well.

    2. TCO*

      I think you’re asking the right questions. It’s very possible that this is a big transition for the organization, which might merit being deliberative and a little slow in the early stages of designing the position description and identifying needs. I’m confused why they’re already taking applications, though, if they’re that early in the process (unless you applied through your connection but they’re not in the official search yet). Once the position is designed it really shouldn’t take 3-6 months to complete the interview process even if it’s being managed by volunteer board members.

      If you interview fo this position, I would ask some thoughtful questions about how decisions are made, where the board is involved and what their capacity is, and how well the board is aligned in their understanding of roles and boundaries between roles. I’d also anticipate a lengthy “building” period where you’ll probably spend a lot of time clarifying roles and understanding the landscape before you can jump into expanding the org’s work in new directions (so I’d also make sure that your funding is secure enough to support a “building” period without unrealistically high expectations of what services you’re expected to deliver in that time).

      1. Ali G*

        Thanks so much – I am not sure if they are officially taking applications, or are just compiling a list of interested parties through known sources. So the recruiter that referred me specifically said to mention that she asked me to apply and to copy her on my email. It remains to be seen if there will be a true “application” process once they’ve completed their first phase. I’ll have to keep that in mind.
        I like your ideas for questions a lot! Appreciate the feedback.

    3. xkd*

      While I suppose your second thought it possible – it’s so much more likely the first one. No one wants short term ED’s (Some foundations are starting to reject organizations that go through what they consider to be too many in a short time), so it’s pretty great to take a very considered approach. When we hired our current ED, I would say start to finish, we spent about a year. It was well worth it! It sounds like you may have gotten an early opportunity, so it may be a longer process for you specifically.

      It may help to remember that just about every positive can be a negative too. Think about it – long term staff/board can mean great buy-in, support, and stability, OR a bunch of crazy people who just do what they want, etc, etc, etc. It’s the NP version of “we’re slow since the weather is bad/we’re slow since it’s so beautiful everyone is outside! I would check out the linked-in of the staff, and get an idea of the overall picture. Good luck to you!

  28. GLT*

    I’m looking for some kind of coding job in NYC right now, and I’ve got two major hurdles I’d like advice on. First, where exactly does one look for coding jobs here? Are there specific websites or sections of LinkedIn or what? I just honestly have no idea where to start looking for this. Second, I attended a really good college for four years, but due to Reasons, I did not finish my degree. These Reasons also cover a decent gap in my work history between my leaving school and the present day. How do I best present this to potential employers, including ones that might list a degree as a requirement for their job?

    1. Annie Moose*

      Might depend on the Reasons. For example, if it was health-related (even mental health-related), you could go with “I was dealing with a serious health issue that is now under control” or something along those lines. If it was family stuff, you could likely say something vague about having to care for a family member or handle family affairs.

      I found this older letter that talks about how to address it if it’s screwing up in general but you’ve had a good record since: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/how-to-address-screwing-up-in-your-past.html

      I definitely don’t think you need to go into explicit detail in an interview; mostly I think employers want to know that you weren’t out of work because you were in prison for being an axe murderer or something and have the sense to not bring gory personal details into an interview.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      While I can’t comment on NYC-specific coding sites (I am sure the coding folks here have more information), have you looked at dice.com for coding jobs by geography? That might be a place to start looking to get a sense of what’s out there that fits your level of education/experience. Good luck!

    3. LKW*

      My info is a little outdated but with so many jobs & employers in NYC recruiters specialize, legal, medical, education, etc. You want to look for recruiters who specialize in technical fields. They’ll help you get in the door for interviews. If you’re just coding then the education piece may not be a big deal, but most jobs in the city expect you to be able to do business analyst work – gather and document requirements, build client relationships, have some industry knowledge. For straight coding a lot of places will just contract with overseas teams to bang out code.

      Also – build a portfolio of coding work done – so that where you might not have a degree, you can show your proficiency through actual work product.

      1. ABK*

        All of that stuff above. Also, networking is key, where did you learn to code, anyone there you can reach out to? Find a recruiter to help, and also develop a portfolio. It can also help to develop a field of interest and get to know the field and the people. Even though you could probably code for anyone it’s awesome to develop a story that shows that you really want to work in healthcare or tech or non profits or food security, or whatever. While it may seem like it would narrow your search it also strengthens it way more since it gives you a demonstrated interest in the field and a step above other generic coders.

    4. Ashk434*

      For jobs you can try CyberCoders, or angelList (angelList has postings exclusively for start ups though) for coding jobs. Or if you have any companies you’re interested in, just search their career page and they’ll most likely have some software engineering positions open.

    5. strawberries and raspberries*

      I don’t know if you’re still looking at this thread, but the NYC Tech Job Fair is this Thursday the 7th at 7 in the evening. You should pull some resumes together and register!

  29. Ruth (UK)*

    What perks and/or frustrations do you have in your job/company that are not a big enough deal you’d ever stay or leave over it, but you’re glad (or annoyed) to have them.

    For me, I work in a uni where we often have events, open days, etc where there is tea and biscuits or cake or sometimes other catering and it’s reasonably common that I end up with free cake etc, and recently pizza! I’d never take or leave a job over the fact free food was frequently available, of course, but it’s pretty good when it happens!

    1. Dee Dee*

      We get a few hundred bucks each year to spend on “wellness.” And once in a while (e.g. the Friday before a long weekend) we’re sent home early, though that’s not a formal benefit. We also get discounts at a bunch of local businesses. These are all nice, but I’d never base a decision on where to work or not to work on them.

      1. As Close As Breakfast*

        The owner of the company I work at, used to send everyone home early like that several times a year. He hasn’t done it in forever at this point, and I can’t believe how much this actually bums me out regularly! No more early Fridays before a long weekend or random early days. Obviously this was not a formal benefit, and the apparent loss of these early days isn’t something I’d consider leaving over, and I KNOW it’s his prerogative to do or not do whenever he damn well feels like it, but… it makes me sad! It actually crosses my mind regularly and it amazes me how much the loss of a random and informal perk has impacted my job satisfaction, which is still small but not negligible! Maybe it’s more that my job satisfaction was getting a regular little bump from these short days that’s no longer happening???

    2. Annie Moose*

      Fresh fruit in the office! I don’t partake of it all that often, but it’s so nice when I’m in a rush and skip breakfast or am fighting hanger in the afternoon to know I can go grab a banana.

    3. Work Wardrobe*

      There’s never any hassle over arriving late/leaving early for doctor/other appointments.

    4. LKW*

      I get to keep all of the travel miles and credit card points I earn traveling and use them for my own private use.

    5. blue canary*

      Flexible schedule! We’re expected to keep to a normal 8-5 but if you’ve gotta leave early to get your kid, or it’s a nice day and you want to take the afternoon off, you can do it (assuming you have the comp/vacation time). Now that I’m typing this out, maybe this IS something I would leave over if we didn’t have it…

      We also get free fruit/veggies. I work for a non-profit so what they lack in salary they make up for in other ways.

    6. Only here for the teapots*

      I like having access to huge journal/article databases via my university log in. I am always researching something for my personal endeavors and being able to read peer reviewed studies and related resources is amazing.

      1. Kate Daniels*

        I was trying to think of some perks to mention, and this is an excellent one I momentarily forgot to be grateful about!

      2. Snazzy Hat*

        I miss that so damn much. I attended a major state university with academic access like you wouldn’t believe. I miss the full Oxford English Dictionary the most. “What language is this from?”-“Gimme two seconds…” “How old is this word?”-“Gimme two seconds…”

    7. annejumps*

      We get string cheese, yogurt, granola bars, hummus and pretzels, juice, carrots, grapes,strawberries, oatmeal, almonds, grapefruit, avocados, kiwis, oranges, etc. delivered every day.

    8. Queen of the File*

      I love that they don’t take the business casual dress code seriously here. For the most part, we’re allowed to be individuals and decide what’s right for us to wear to work. I would deal with having to dress more formally elsewhere if I had to, but man I love being able to wear jeans without a hassle!

    9. Trillion*

      At my last company it’s that allll of our charity work was focused on veterans. I think supporting veterans is great!! But our company was not military or veteran related specifically. It’s just that the head of the group that organized these things was a veteran, and she was not open to doing charity for other groups even if they were just as deserving and legitimate.

      1. SWOinRecovery*

        Ugh. As a Veteran, I feel like the idea that Veterans charities are “holier than thou” contributes to the civilian-military divide in our country, which we don’t want! It leads to real issues like hiring discrimination under the guise that all Veterans are unstable because of PTSD.

        Also, fake charities tend to be Veteran-based as well (in hopes that no one questions them) which could bring up another issue with that policy.

    10. Oxford Coma*

      My work is very supportive of ergonomics and preventative safety measures. It was no problem for me to expense a somewhat pricey vertical mouse, and anybody who wants a standing desk can get one.

    11. Neosmom*

      As an admin, when I am ordering / picking up food for a business meeting, my boss EXPECTS me to get something for myself! First time in 20+ years of working in admin to get that kind of consideration.

    12. Middle School Teacher*

      For perks, food. We get a LOT of free food: kids have birthdays and bring donuts etc, or someone bakes for us, or we get candy or stuff from parents.

      For frustrations… parents. I work in a school with extremely supportive parents for the most part, but the ones who are bad are AWFUL. Mean, rude, and a couple have absolutely made it their mission to make lives miserable (teachers, and students and other parents). Dealing with them is soul-destroying. (Which is why it’s good we usually have candy or carbs in the staff room because they’re necessary.)

    13. RedCoat*

      They just took away the free wifi and put cell signal dampeners about. As I do data entry, that really kills my ability to listen to music/podcasts/whatever as I work. Not bad enough to leave over for sure, but it definitely feels like they are trying to torpedo morale.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        We weren’t allowed to stream at Exjob (except Pandora, which I hate; my preferred streaming website is free to listen and has no audible ads, provided it makes its donation goal each month). Lucky for me, I have a microSD card on my phone with a ton of albums on it. It’s all the music I would stream anyway, mostly. Would they let you do that as an alternative? Or use an mp3 player of some kind?

        1. SWOinRecovery*

          Yeah, that’s obnoxious–especially the cell signal dampeners!
          Other alternatives to try: downloading podcasts at home, get the overdrive app and download books with your library card to listen on airplane mode from your phone. Or, go super old school–FM radio or CD player for audiobooks from the library.

      2. Cristina in England*

        Is this something companies are doing now? Or do you work in a field with really strict communications rules? (Thinking finance as an example but of course there are others)

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I have had several jobs where I was allowed to take home things the company was done with. One time I needed pieces to put together a dog run, I was able to find most of the stuff I needed in the discard pile. Not enough of a perk to make me stay at the job but I sure missed it once I left.

    15. Small company luck*

      I work in a small company and every week they buy lunch one day and we have a rotating salad day another day a week. We also have a constant selection of snacks/coffee/tea. Breakfast food is often purchased as well. We have quarterly bonuses (usually a few hundred but I’ll take it). We close by 2 every Friday and during the summer we close at noon on Fridays. We also close in bad weather.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        I parsed your first sentence incorrectly and visualized a giant salad which rotates on a motorized platform: “we have a rotating salad”.

        1. Small company luck*

          That would be awesome. I’ll make the suggestion. No it is a day of the week where salad is provided. I don’t know why I said rotating I guess other than the fact each week it is a different salad.

          1. Snazzy Hat*

            I would have also accepted a situation where the Day of Salad changes from week to week, such as on June 4th, then June 12th, then June 20th, etc. But your situation of a different salad is neat.

    16. Snazzy Hat*

      It smarts that I can’t get free parking, but I work downtown and my workplace has a contract with a parking garage that’s easy for me to get to. I pay $20 a month to drive a few miles, walk two blocks, and then ride the free trolley to the door of my building.

      The company puts such a huge priority on employees, too. I almost cried with joy when I realized I would never have to be a doormat again at work (why yes, I worked in retail for a total of almost six years). On one occasion, a coworker surprisingly received a phone call from a customer. My manager was livid at whoever transferred the call to our team because “we don’t talk to customers”. That’s true, and a direct quote.

      We also have frequent food days. Oh, and an hour lunch.

    17. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Listening to music, either with or without headphones, is usually a big no-no in my field (at least when working on big projects where there are lots of machines around) and being seen with headphones in will often get you sent off site and possibly fired instantly. However, my current employer seems to get much more relaxed contracts where we don’t usually have any other workers on site but us, so we can get away with having a radio and/or headphones. It makes the day much more interesting!

  30. CurrentlyAnonDev*

    So an update. Things seem to be going better with this PIP project. I’m actively searching now. Also, through code reviews or looking over his own code, I’m finding out my boss really hasn’t kept up with modern Java, which explains part of the reason there’s such a disconnect between his expectations and reality, sometimes. I am getting some general good coding advice from him, though.

    Long story short: the one class he provided me for something was riddled with some pretty serious bugs, didn’t follow some major language conventions, and had some convoluted logic. He doesn’t understand the output of modern build tools (it said BUILD FAILED, come on), wouldn’t let me explain my third party logger already had the options he wanted configured, and wants me to add more documentation that usual to my code.

    I’m really perplexed. What should I be making of this? He always seems so intelligent….

    1. Brownie*

      Sadly intelligent doesn’t always equate to up-to-date in the IT world. What I’ve found is that flexibility and the ability to handle change correlates well with being up-to-date instead. My new boss is very smart, but refuses to use industry standard programs which would simplify and speed up tasks in favor of his 15+ year old single-task programs and he’s now trying to force his preferences on everyone else in the team. The options with someone like that is either grin and bear it in silence or else sitting down and asking for clarification from him. For example what I ask my new boss is “Hey boss, I’m confused. Your code is written this way, but I was taught to write it this other way. Can you clarify which version of coding language we should be using?” It’s frustrating as all get out to be in that position of being more up-to-date than the boss when it comes to programming, especially when said boss is responsible for checking your code and approving it.

      1. CurrentlyAnonDev*

        I think our bosses are related. Mine doesn’t force people to use his stuff at least. He also doesn’t seem to care what I use as long as it works. The only real problem is that he can’t judge schedules at all or provide me with specific feedback in how to test my code for outlier scenarios, which are the two things that got me put on the PIP in the first place. (I blew a schedule because he cut the hours until it was unattainable and had a bug because I did something stupid that reverted code, not because I didn’t know to check for it. I now know not to do that dumb thing again.)

        1. Brownie*

          The earnest, yet confused, face of “Could you help me? I’ve found all these options for testing my code for outlier scenarios, but I don’t have the experience to tell which one is best for our product/situation” has worked well for me in the past. It shows effort made to try and fix the problem, but throws it back in his lap so he has control over which proposed solution would work best while acknowledging his seniority/authority. This works really well with bosses who’re control freaks or ego sensitive too.

          For the schedule… that’s a lot harder. Any chance you could set up a weekly schedule update meeting with him, even if it’s only 15 minutes long, so he can let you know of any changes and you can ask questions about it? A couple bosses ago I had someone like that who kept cutting hours assigned to projects and a “Hey boss, has there been a deadline change to this project? I thought it was a priority because it had to be done by date, but in the latest calendar there’s no hours assigned to it.” helped so much. Framing it like that avoided any hint of “Bad boss! You can’t time manage!” accusations and helped him reframe the priority order and schedule, especially when he was overwhelmed and/or couldn’t keep track of what all was going on because the higher-ups were changing priorities on him weekly.

          1. CurrentlyAnonDev*

            Hmm. I could definitely ask some general questions regarding how to test. I’m not sure how much feedback I will get but I can try!

            I’m meeting with him twice a week, so I have that part covered. The schedule is something that I was told to write up with little experience in schedule planning and he didn’t change it much. I gotta stick to it because he’s charging another part of the company by the hour for my work and they can’t afford any slippages. :(

      1. CurrentlyAnonDev*

        Yeah, I know. That is coming first! He seems happy so far.

        Problem is, this really shouldn’t be a PIP. It came out of nowhere without any feedback leading up to it. PIPs should be last resort when feedback hasn’t worked. PIPs should not be used when younger developers are actually right where they should be in terms of skill and speed but you want them to have the speed and abilities of someone with 10+ more years of experience, overnight, without at all coaching them to you expectations. And punish you for things that he himself has done worse.

        If it was a normal PIP, I would be right there with you. But it’s not. He’s never been coached on how to manage and uses PIPs instead of feedback, especially when people don’t meet expectations that are way beyond what someone of their level of experience can reasonably do. I’m not the first one he’s done this to, just the latest target, and I expect to be fired like the rest of them no matter how hard I work and improve. Actively searching!

  31. Dinosaur Kale*

    Just venting: I work in direct service, and I just found out some bad news I have to break to one of my clients. I know we’re going to come up with a great plan to move forward, but it’s been a super discouraging way to start the day.

    2. LizB*

      Oof, it’s so tough to have something difficult come up first thing. I hope your day gets better from here!

  32. Oxford Coma*

    Ah, intern season. The time of year in which I’m reminded on an hourly basis that teaching Is Not For Me. Intern Jane just had a row with Intern Fergus because he keeps spraying things and she’s fragrance-sensitive, you know.

    Narrator: Fergus was using compressed air to clean his keyboard.

        1. LKW*

          I work with two people in their early 20’s. They are delightful, driven and super smart. It’s the person, not the generation.

          All suggestions that come to mind would result in a possible assault charge.

        2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          umm… we just say “No phones except on break”. Surprisingly this takes care of it.

          1. SWOinRecovery*

            Yep. Clear policy + enough work should fix the problem. Maybe direction for who to talk to if you’re in between assignments or professional development websites to peruse during downtime…

    5. Close Bracket*

      I don’t know how sensitive her nose is, but she might be smelling the accelerant.

  33. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Just…can I vent a bit? EVERY legal document I have looked at today in my new position (improving legal databases), has to do with vaginal mesh medical devices!

    I’m trying to get more comfortable with discussing bodies and sex, since I am 28 and still have trouble using the anatomically correct names out loud without blushing.

    But still…I DON’T NEED TO HEAR HOW PEOPLE BECAME INCONTINENT or whatever while I eat breakfast at my desk!

    1. SpaceNovice*

      Oh no, that stinks. You’ve got a lot of sympathy from me. Especially since I’m sure the legal documents go into detail. What a Friday!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think your solution may be not to eat while you work. Or work hard to develop a sense of removal, which reading sensitive documents might often require.

    3. LKW*

      The more you say it – the less weird it will become. I’ve worked at places that made birth control and people had posters of birth control through the ages posters in their offices and and products for erectile dysfunction where there were ED products everywhere. Every time someone here says ED I think “Why are they talking about erectile dysfunction?” and then I remember ED here= executive director.

      1. Only here for the teapots*

        I’m sure some letter writers are also dealing with executive dysfunction.

      2. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

        Same boat. I have to constantly remind myself that people on AAM do not work as Erectile Dysfunctions.

      3. Treecat*

        Yup, this. The more you read about/talk about whatever thing it is, the more normalized it will become and the less it will likely bother you. I used to teach anatomy dissection labs (human and animal) and there is basically no kind of discussion about anatomy that will me blink or put me off my food.

      4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        Ah – this reminds me of when I first started working with payroll and learned the alternate meaning of STD. It’s always “short term disability” to me now, but not so much when I first heard it 10 or so years ago.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I will say that the shock value wears off. I worked in a wound care facility for a while. The initial intake photos were ghastly, and then progressive photos and then discharge photos. If you’re coming in for wound care, you’ve got some pretty gnarly stuff happening. It’s not just a little dainty papercut.

      One of my tasks was to handle filing the discharge paperwork after discharging them from the hospital network, so ensuring everything was there, chronological, etc. Basically, I couldn’t not see anything in that patient folder. When I first started, every photo was “oh gawd this is awful” and by the time I left it turned into “huh, well that healed nicely” while munching on an apple or whatever. All that to say: you will eventually become desensitized.

    5. Oxford Coma*

      Recite uncomfortable phrases aloud repeatedly during your commute to desensitize yourself. (If you drive. Don’t mutter PG-13 comments over and over on the subway and scare people.)

      I’m in construction-adjacent tech, and I spent two days mumbling “pipe nipples” to myself to get over it.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I am a huge fan of the musical “Fun Home” and was at Target one day listening to the soundtrack. Sort of singing under my breath while I looked for the allergy meds.

        Apparently, when you say, “body prep that can’t be beat!” in a whispery singsong, people SCATTER!

      2. Snazzy Hat*

        Speaking of pipe nipples, I worked at a place where the people around me had to be proficient in “manual butt fusion” and “hydraulic butt fusion”. I thanked all the deities that I didn’t have to say those phrases out loud!

    6. Manders*

      Are you doing something with PI law? Those vaginal mesh cases were biiiiiiiig for a while. You get used to it eventually (although as a woman who was working in a mostly male office, it never stopped being frustrating when a ton of IUD and hormonal birth control-related lawsuits were being discussed and the men would say things like “I’d never use any of these if I were a woman” without really understanding that these were the lowest-risk options I had available).

    7. Evil HR Person*

      My mom, who used to work for the VA – bless her heart – used to come home with stories about priapism. No names, just how it happened, in GREAT and GRUESOME detail, and whether it was considered a service connected disability. All’s I’m saying is: as long as you don’t share the stories with your loved ones, I guess you’re okay… :-/

    8. Jersey's mom*

      Yeah. You’ll eventually develop a mental callus. I’m a (female) biologist and worked with dozens of (male) engingers and construction crews to build wind farms. We talked about erections all the time. It took a while for all of us to get used to it.

      See, you erect the turbine tower sections, and then the final erecting of the nacelle and rotor…..

  34. Cucumber Water*

    Question for anyone who hires teens, specifically as people expected to have little to no work experience:

    Youngest, in high school, is going to work for his dad’s company this summer. Application is a formality but everyone (him, dad, me) feels he should do it properly, which means sending in a resume. His first draft was very straightforward as to work experience (hourly help for neighbors, like snow shoveling and clearing branches). This was partly on my advice–older sib did the “strain to turn each basic task into an example of Dynamic Leadership” thing and I thought it looked transparent and if anything undercut the experience since you were dynamicizing it so hard. (Now that she’s older and has more actual experience, and confidence in her past work and how it supports her application, she doesn’t do this.) Husband noted that the norm is to do that–that yes it’s transparent, but it’s just The Done Thing. He hires (people with advanced degrees) and I don’t. But he wasn’t arguing that it made it more convincing to him, just that it was the norm to puff as much as possible, and not doing that stood out in a sort of “I am too naive to know that I should puff this up more” way.

    Thoughts on listing your basic job experience when very new to having job experience?

    1. Super stressed*

      I’m on your side. They should just list what they do without trying to puff it up (unless, maybe, they can say something like “shoveled more snow than peers, trained peers on how to clear branches, etc”). Puffing is pretty common but is really obvious and, in my experience, comes with interns who aren’t as qualified as they think they are.

      I once had an intern who wrote “utilized a shovel to dig holes” as his only description for a summer job. That isn’t even the same issue as what you’re describing, but it still made me laugh…which is not what you want a hiring manager to do when they read your resume.

      The fluff issue is common enough with students that I don’t rule them out just for doing it, but I don’t recommend it, either.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        I had to laugh at your hole-digging example. I used to work in cultural resource management archaeology, which of course has lots of interesting things to put on a CV and you needed some specific education to be hired in the field in the first place, but I always joked that a trained monkey could do my job most days.

        The one skill I used the most? ‘Utilized a shovel to dig holes.’

    2. SoWeird*

      I’ve never heard of high school summer jobs requiring a resume, just an application. Is this a thing, now?

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I would stick to the basics. He can “puff” it up after he’s had a job or two if its absolutely necessary. Most places that hire teens to work are very aware that they have little experience or none at all. It’s mostly done via online applications and you just leave the work history blank. I think it’s fine to get him used to a resume now but don’t puff it up. This is probably the only time where you can be honest about having little to no experience and employers won’t hold it against you.

    4. Cousin Itt*

      I wouldn’t go straining for examples of Dynamic Leadership, but I think it’s fine to emphasize how his limited work experience shows him to be responsible/organised/reliable. I think those are the sort of qualities that are more sought after in high school kids with little experience as they typically aren’t going to be going into leadership roles but need to show they’ll be a capable team member.

    5. The Cleaner*

      For a very basic resume for a teen, the purpose the resume is serving is to show me the teen is taking the job seriously enough to create a basic resume that is clear, correctly spelled, and has essential information like name and contact information.

      ABSOLUTELY it would look ridiculous to make jobs like yardwork sound loftier. I would show my colleagues and we would snicker about it. It wouldn’t stop me from hiring the teen, but it would definitely be “aww, that teen didn’t know any better and gave us this hilarious resume!”

  35. Applying multiple times*

    Advice on re-applying to a company needed:

    I was supposed to start graduate school this year (I’m accepted and everything, have support). But I’m having “cold feet” about my pick and am wondering if I want to simply start an ordinary corporate job instead. A friend of a friend works at a pretty good company (let’s call it X) about two hours away from where I currently live, in a city I really like.

    As I decide whether to actually go forward with this grad school thing, I’m tempted to apply for X, see if I get an offer. Then I decide whether I want to take the offer or take the grad school opportunity.

    Here’s my question: If I DO go to grad school, my plans may change after the first year, depending on how well I like my program. If I were to reapply to X again, would my application have a “black mark” against it because it was the second time I’d applied? Would people even care? How much?

    1. SpaceNovice*

      As long as the company isn’t weird or you don’t do something outrageous that would get you banned for life from interviewing with the company, I don’t think it’ll cause any problems. People reapply to companies after they’ve gained more experience and/or education all the time.

    2. Hmmm*

      I think there’s a chance people would care if it was clear that you were already accepted to grad school. It makes it look like you can’t fully commit to things (like grad school) or that you’re willing to waste their time (because you knew you probably wouldn’t work for them since you were in school – not that it’s the case, but it’s easy that they’d see it that way).

      I don’t think that’s *too* likely – there’s a chance no one would notice – but I would certainly think about it beforehand instead of just assuming no one will care. There’s no reason you have to apply to X *then* decide if you’d take a job – that’s something you can at least think about now. Just based on your question, you seem very undecided about all your plans – go to job now, stay in school, stay in school for a year and then go… I think you’re better off deciding what it is you actually want, instead of worrying about all the possible scenarios.

      Also, what type of program is this? If it’s a master’s, you might be better off just finishing it after the first year. If it’s a PhD, that’s a lot longer, but it’s also much more normal for people to drop out of them, so that’d be easy to spin in a year. (Because saying “I didn’t want to commit to academia for years” is very convincing to those who didn’t want to commit for years!)

  36. Thornus67*

    I have a question about proper attire. I have a preliminary assessment exam for a job application with a government entity in the PNW coming up. It’s not an interview, and the exam is offsite. I don’t know who will be there. I’m a man. Would proper attire just be standard business casual – button down and slacks?

    1. Murphy*

      Sounds fine to me. Definitely professional, but I don’t think interview formal would be required.

    3. Actuarial Octagon*

      Sounds fine to me. If it’s not too hot that day a jacket wouldn’t be out of place but you’re fine without one.

    4. Bea*

      PNW native. Yes, business casual is all good for this kind of thing. Save the suit for interviewing.

    5. periwinkle*

      Suit? What’s a suit? In the PNW, shoes are optional.

      Okay, maybe it’s not quite _that_ casual. Button down & slacks will be fine.

    6. raktajino*

      Agreeing with the others here. Slacks and button down would be fine, bonus points for a blazer or tie. My husband wears a full suit and tie to interviews (federal and private engineering) but he’s not from round here.

  37. WellRed*

    So this is from a UK survey asking why businesses don’t have more women on the board. I am especially fond of No. 2. all those “complex issues” us little women can’t possibly comprehend.
    1. “I don’t think women fit comfortably into the board environment”
    2. “There aren’t that many women with the right credentials and depth of experience to sit on the board — the issues covered are extremely complex”
    3. “Most women don’t want the hassle or pressure of sitting on a board”
    4. “Shareholders just aren’t interested in the make-up of the board, so why should we be?”
    5. “My other board colleagues wouldn’t want to appoint a woman on our board”
    6. “All the ‘good’ women have already been snapped up”
    7. “We have one woman already on the board, so we are done — it is someone else’s turn”
    8. “There aren’t any vacancies at the moment — if there were I would think about appointing a woman”
    9. “We need to build the pipeline from the bottom — there just aren’t enough senior women in this sector”
    10. “I can’t just appoint a woman because I want to.”

      1. LizB*

        My favorite quote about that specific flavor of bullshit is from Ruth Bader Ginsburg: “When I’m sometimes asked when will there be enough [women on the Supreme Court] and I say, ‘When there are nine,’ people are shocked. But there’d been nine men, and nobody’s ever raised a question about that.” Seems like it could apply to boards as well…

    3. Alternative Person*

      So basically they’re too wimpy to appoint a woman to the board? Colour me surprised. /sarcasm.

    4. Ali G*

      #3 – Really??? You’ve talked to all the professional women in your sector out there and they agree?

    5. ElspethGC*

      Yeah, that article was a doozy. I can’t even pick one. They’re all horrifying, except perhaps 8, which is slightly more reasonable. Not as bad as the others. at least.

    6. Luna*

      #1- ah yes, the classic strategy of making the environment as uncomfortable as possible for women and then claiming women aren’t there because they don’t “fit” into that environment. Nice.

    7. writelhd*

      people said this kind of stuff (I’m hoping at least it was anonymously…but even so…) in 2018? Where they knew other people would read it? TF? My first response is: :( :( :(

      My second response comes from this *really* juvenile part of me, that I can’t seem to suppress in my own head, that wants to substitute “your face” in for other words when I read/hear see things particularly ridiculous. (Sometimes I wish I could do this with some of the oddball things clients say.) Somehow that’s how I cope with the absurdity. Ok male CEOs in the UK, well, I don’t think your face would fit comfortably in a board environment. Your face doesn’t have the right credentials and depth of experience.

      (hides)

    8. neverjaunty*

      My favorite is #5. “Gosh, I’d love to put a woman on the board but it’s all those OTHER people who are naysayers!”

      Sure, Nigel.

    9. London Calling*

      Aw dang, they missed out my favourite from the days when the House of Lords finally admitted female peers. Lord Redesdale, the father of the Mitford sisters, opposed the introduction of female peers to the House of Lords because he was worried that they would commandeer the nearest lavatories.

      Plus in other news – recently the Bank of England had a shortlist of five people for a senior job, four women and one man. Guess who got the job? betcha can’t, can you?

    10. Morwen the Grad Student*

      I’m going to need some assistance picking my jaw up off the floor.

    11. London Calling*

      “Shareholders just aren’t interested in the make-up of the board, so why should we be?”

      Well, in that case there’s nothing stopping you appointing women, is there? logic fail RIGHT THERE.

    12. Thlayli*

      I agree with 9. I’m in engineering and there are well established reasons why there are so few women at board level
      1 very few women at lower levels – only about 10% of engineering grads in my country are women, and a generation ago it was even less. So let’s say it was 3% a generation ago (I don’t know exact numbers) – in that case you would only expect 3% of board members now to be women.
      2 there is what we call the “leaking pipe” of women from engineering. Over time there’s a steady loss of women from the profession. They leave at all stages, often to go into more family-friendly fields.

      I favour a two-pronged approach of trying to encourage more teenage girls into STEM subjects generally, and also trying to make industry in general more family friendly for both men and women.

      Reasons 1-8 are BS though.

  38. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I’m so tired of being treated less than simply because I’m support staff. It’s REALLY starting to wear on me. Especially this week. Everyone just seems super rude all of a sudden.

    I’ve, so far, hit a brick wall on the job search.

    Just feeling kind of dejected today.

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            It does. And I know it’s not permanent – I got this job in the midst of the recession and I had ZERO experience besides retail. So I know, logically, that it’s possible. It’s just hard.

    2. Emily S.*

      I’m sorry to hear that. Job searching can be so demoralizing!

      Let’s look at positives:

      –TGIF! The weekend is almost here, woohoo!
      –The onset of summer means less traffic (in my ‘hood at least), so nice
      –Pretty flowers are blooming
      –We are alive, in decent health, and get to live another day (I just finished the book When Breath Becomes Air, and am feeling grateful to be alive, and not dying of cancer)
      –Fun weekend plans (Do you have any? I’m doing brunch with a girlfriend, and cycling with another friend, plus a weekend baking spree :)

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        No weekend plans for me. Which, honestly? I am okay with. I’ve been doing a lot the past month and I’m kind of looking forward to doing nothing. Maybe make a mojito or two. Grill. Chill out with my chinchilla.

        For my birthday, I got some ridiculously good coffee and a gift card to use for a really nice grinder. Plus, I have some leftover lemon elderflower scones in the freezer that I might pop in the oven tomorrow.

        2. Emily S.*

          WDP, that sounds like a lovely weekend. It’s great to relax and take it easy.

          My Memorial Day weekend was very chill, and it was excellent. I got some stuff done, and had plenty of time to veg out on the sofa.

          I read a lot, and for me that’s very relaxing. It can be a nice escape.

    3. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry, that’s the worst! I complain about this sometimes, esp. when people go off about “administrative bloat.” I’m like, hey, do you want to do my job? On top of yours? I think if I wasn’t here you’d start to feel it real fast. People who appreciate admin staff are the best and I will answer their emails first.

      I actually had an old coworker, who started out in a support role, make this kind of comment! She was asking me why they couldn’t keep someone in their entry-level admin role for more than two years (I was in that role and left after about 2 years) and I told her it didn’t pay enough to stay in long-term, especially without any advancement path (I started job searching because they wouldn’t bump me up). My old coworker kind of balked at that, saying something like “but it’s just clerical work? What kind of salary are they expecting?” First of all, thanks for that. Second of all, it was a lot more than clerical work. Third of all, don’t you remember being in that role 10 years ago?? Why would you talk about it like that? PEOPLE. :|

      1. Luna*

        Ugh those types of people are the worst!!! When I was an admin I was lucky in that most of the people I worked with were super nice and appreciative, but every now and then there was someone who was just a complete jerk. For some reason it was almost always someone who had started off in a lower-level role and gotten promoted (usually less due to talent than their friendship with the boss).

        1. Tara S.*

          I was surprised because I genuinely like and look up to her! It was kind of out of left field!

      2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Yep! I have a List. People who are supportive/appreciative are aware the list exists. The others think I’m joking.

        The problem, here, is that there ARE people who are plenty supportive. And when I interact with them my days are noticeably better. But all our projects run in cycles, so there’s are in Llama Olympics stage whereas the co-irkers projects are in Llama Tryouts stage. I know, in a week or two, they’ll start phasing out and the interactions with people who don’t make me want to shove an ice pick in my eye will start being more frequent.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        The no-advancement path is a killer. It’s very very hard to get out of the admin pool at some places, even if you don’t have dyscalculia holding you back like I do.

        1. Jennifer*

          Hear hear on both of those things. Every single job I see wants you to be a money person and I cannot do that.

    4. You don't know me*

      I’m sorry. I hope it gets better. My sister recently started her first admin/support type job and within the first week she said something like “its funny how quickly I could tell who treats me like I work with them and who treats me like I work for them.”

      1. Jenny Next*

        “who treats me like I work with them and who treats me like I work for them.”

        Oh, I love this! I’m in a role that I consider professional, but that some people consider support. And you’ve just described in a nutshell something that started happening in the last five or ten years — so many of the latter type, especially among the younger/newer co-workers. Thank you for the meme!

    5. mediumofballpoint*

      I’m sorry, WDP. I’m crossing my fingers that people stop being jerks in your direction soon.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      My wise friend used to talk about these brick walls. His pearl of wisdom was “change one thing that you are doing”. Does not matter what that one thing is, it just has to make sense to you. Oddly, that thing could be unrelated to job searching or work. And obviously it has to be something that you are in control of and you can actually change.

      Use the weekend to relax your tired mind and ponder what that change could be. Finding the first change is the hardest. So you find it, implement it, and see where that puts you. Then you look for a second thing that you would like to change. Remember it could be absolutely anything. Keep going on change or tweak at a time until you find yourself moving in the direction you want to move.

  39. Curious*

    Is there a response interviewers are looking for when they ask you how you handle competing priorities? I’ve been asked this question on multiple interviews and I understand where it’s coming from. I can’t shake the feeling that my responses are never…great…but I also don’t know what else to say (I typically say something about planning ahead when possible, and if that’s not possible I prioritize and communicate to my manager or the client).

    How do you guys handle this question?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      How about giving some examples from your past work experience when you’ve had to juggle priorities in a pinch?

    2. AVP*

      I ask this question a lot in interviews for entry-level staff and what I’m looking for is some indication that the interviewee has some sort of plan and understanding of how prioritization works.

      It almost doesn’t matter what their system is – since they’ll end up learning mine anyway – but I need to screen out people who say things like, “oh, whoever asks me to do something first is my first priority and if you give me a task second, you’ll be the second thing I do, and on and on…not fair to play favorites haha!”

      I tried to write out a “good response” to this – what I want to hear – but it mainly just reminded me that I sold very BS-y when I think of interview responses and need to work on that myself.

      1. AVP*

        also YES to what Anonymous Educator said – examples of how you’ve learned to prioritize in the past are super helpful.

    3. Actuarial Octagon*

      I usually talk through times I’ve dealt with this successfully , focusing on getting and maintaining really clear timelines as well as asking for help when necessary. This tactic works well for me because I work in a team environment where people are expected to pitch in and help coworkers. If you work completely independently this may be the wrong move.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve asked this question a lot recently, and to me the most important part is the prioritization, which I might want to be involved with (as the person’s manager).

      1. irene adler*

        So does a response that starts with :
        “I act according to the priorities set by my boss” a good or bad thing to hear?

        And does this plus what the OP indicated (plan ahead, keep boss apprised, ask for help if needed to meet deadlines) constitute a good answer?

        In some interviews, I have given examples. However, the feedback from the recruiter was that my responses were too long. So I cut out the examples. Instead, I ask if they’d like me to give them some examples.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I always appreciate a specific example, but yeah, all of those things you say. I want someone who has good judgement, which includes getting help from the boss or others when 10 people need something this exact minute.

    5. Jady*

      I’ve asked this to interviewees. This question is absolutely a real scenario that you will encounter at work on a regular basis in many jobs. There are a few things I’m looking for in the answer:

      Are you able to accurately determine what needs to be prioritized and why?
      Are you able to tell someone to professionally bugger off when their needs are NOT your priority?
      Are you able to know when you need help determining priorities and who you ask for help?
      Are you able to deal with people breathing down your neck? How do you work under pressure?
      Are you able to properly judge when some work requires overtime (ie the difference between critical vs urgent vs high – at our job.)

      The answers or specifics to these will vary depending on your field. That list is a lot of questions in a question, but usually easy to summarize with a paragraph and if possible examples of previous experience.

      But also I usually follow up with more questions if the answer is lacking the information I want.

      1. LKW*

        Many years ago when I was an admin and someone would come to me with a “very very important rush job” and I would ask if I needed to tell the VP that his stuff had to wait because of such a “very important job” and suddenly it was a little less important.

  40. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Anyone have any recommendations for good books or websites for learning SQL? Not gonna learn this in my LIS program, but I feel like I should know at least the basics for when I start job hunting.

      1. JanetM*

        Lynda.com (pay) and Khan Academy (free, I think) both have SQL courses. I’ve used Lynda for other things and been very satisfied with their training. I’ve not used Khan Academy.

        1. CBE*

          Check your public library and see if they have free Lynda access! Mine does, I just log in through the library’s web site with my library card number and password.

        2. Unfashionable*

          If you’re in the US some local libraries have Lynda.com access for free with your library card, so check there first.

    2. Annie Moose*

      W3Schools is a good online reference that’s accessible to learners (but still remains useful even once you’ve gained experience). It also lets you try things out right in your web browser, which is very helpful.

      1. Annie Moose*

        If you have access to it (or are willing to pay), PluralSight has some really good video courses.

      3. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        Seconding W3 – I still use it to check correct syntax on occasion!

    3. lopsided*

      Khan Academy was amazing for me, and free. Mode Analytics has tutorials that go into more advanced topics after that, and then it’s W3schools and Stack Overflow for the rest for me.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Adding to the above suggestions–you can download DB Browser for SQLite and mess with a tiny database of your own right on your home computer. There’s other programs, of course, but it’ll cover the standard operations and you don’t have to worry much about how different types of SQL Servers work to start.

    5. Windchime*

      T-SQL Fundamentals by Itzik Ben-Gan. It’s one of my favorite SQL books and although I have been using T-SQL professionally for around 12 years, I still refer to this book (and others written by Ben-Gan) occasionally.

  41. TheOtherAnon*

    I don’t know if this is more a question or something that I need to vent about, but does anyone have any advice on how to move on from a situation where a coworker betrayed your trust?

    A former coworker of mine left our company about two months ago. Let’s call them Alex. I had a good working relationship with Alex and I considered them to be a close work friend. Early on in my position, I was going through some personal things and I confided about this to Alex. At the time, Alex seemed supportive and even shared some of their personal struggles with me. Alex even recommended a therapist to me! Because of this, I felt like Alex was someone I could trust to talk to about work/personal situations. I had many conversations with Alex throughout our time working together, and Alex never indicated to me that they were annoyed by our conversations and I was under the impression that things I shared with Alex were shared in confidence. I’ve come to find out now that they have left the company that Alex spread gossip about me around the office. They told other coworkers that they were “annoyed they had to ‘counsel’ me on my personal problems.” I’m really hurt by this, but given that they have already quit there isn’t anything I can do. I’m just having a hard time moving past what I consider to be a major betrayal of my trust and It’s making it hard for me to trust others at my company now.

    Has something like this happened to anyone else here? How did you move on? (For context, I am casually job searching right now. I’m looking to move to a limited geographic area, so I’m anticipating it will be 6 months to a year before I find the right new position).

    1. Leave it Beaver*

      Ouch that’s painful! But honestly, it sounds as though Alex enjoyed playing the fixer and martyring themselves for the cause… I would honestly consider you lucky to know the truth in that you can’t trust Alex and be thankful that you were only close work friends. Grieve the loss of a friend, but don’t give another thought to Alex.

      1. TheOtherAnon*

        I appreciate the advice! I have personally decided to disassociate myself with Alex, and I have no intention of reaching out to them personally or professionally (I’m in a field that is small, but just large enough that I will probably be able to avoid interacting with them as much as possible). Do you have any suggestions for how to separate this experience from my future interactions with coworkers? I keep telling myself that my coworkers aren’t Alex, but I’m still wary of what I say and do around them because of this.

        1. Leave it to Beaver*

          It’s a learning moment and there are always going to be some growing pains around a learning moment. It’s ok to be wary and take a step back while you get your bearings back. It’s a matter of being open, but aware of those around you. Alex simply taught you something to be more aware of. While there will always be folks who disappoint you, if you’re able to accept that, you should do what feels comfortable to you. If you’re a sharer, then share. Just keep an eye out for the subtle signs that someone is a bit too interested/invested/insensitive to what you’re sharing. That doesn’t mean you won’t get burned, but it also doesn’t mean that you’re a bad/sad/mad person.

        2. Artemesia*

          There are reasons to not date at work. Those same reasons apply to being besties with someone at work and sharing a lot of personal stuff. I have seen this sort of betrayal more than once. Building personal friendship circles outside of work colleagues is your best bet in the future. Enjoy co-workers; even enjoy socializing with them. But don’t let them in to close to your personal issues. They are not the people to discuss y our relationship problems with or your child’s mental issues or your financial difficulties and most certainly not your disgust with your boss. This is what friends are for. Your colleagues are not friends.

    2. McWib*

      I’m sorry that Alex betrayed your trust. It really hurts, but know that you will live this down and move past it as time passes. Distract yourself with non-work activities and invest more time in relationships that don’t have anything to do with work.

      In the future, though, I would counsel you against confiding in coworkers for this reason. While Alex may have been happy to support you initially, s/he may have become overwhelmed or felt like boundaries were crossed, but s/he may not have felt comfortable telling you to stop….so they started venting to your coworkers, which is obviously not okay. But, unfortunately, one risk of confiding in people you don’t know that well (Alex was just a “work friend”) is that they may share your secrets.

      Generally, when someone tells you to talk to a therapist, they’re signaling that they can’t help you, for whatever reason, at which point you should stop confiding in them. If you followed up on Alex’s therapy recommendation, you may want to talk to your therapist about the situation at work. They should be able to give you some suggestions.

      1. TheOtherAnon*

        To clarify, I only ever had one “big” conversation about a personal situation with Alex and I discussed it with them because it was impacting my work. To be honest, after that conversation I was really embarrassed because I felt it toed the line of professionalism and I wanted to avoid discussing that specific situation with Alex again. However, I did feel comfortable enough with Alex to discuss other things, our families/friends/pets, weekend/vacation plans, venting about work, etc. I’d say the bulk of what we chatted about was work venting, and maybe Alex connected our first conversation with future conversations in a way I’m not aware of? However, I personally think it’s unlikely because my coworkers have indicated to me that this was likely not a situation where Alex felt uncomfortable as you stated above. One even flat out told me “Alex knew what they were doing and was manipulating you.” It sounds like they may have done something similar with a different coworker who left before I started.

        1. McWib*

          I don’t know Alex or the details of the situation, so I can’t say whether the “big” conversation tainted all your other interactions or whether they’re unreasonable. I can say that you’ll drive yourself crazy if you spend a lot of time trying to figure out where exactly things went wrong (and you might be wrong about what happened anyway). The only thing you can know is that Alex felt that you crossed a line, and then they were a jerk about it– and all you can draw from the experience is that you should be thoughtful about how much you share with people at work.

    3. Jady*

      Going forward – it’s wise to maintain professional boundaries with all coworkers. I know it’s tempting – it has been for me as well – but in the end it’s important to realize that you MUST work with these people every day, and they MUST work with you every day. Most people try to maintain a pleasant relationship, which sometimes means tolerating things they don’t like. There are so many coworker complaints on this blog alone to serve as examples.

      In a typical professional environment, it’s unlikely people are ever going to tell you ‘I’m sick of your issues, stop talking about it!’ Subtle hints are dropped, and recommending a therapist could have been one of those hints. The direct approach is usually last, if ever, because it can potentially create tension, hurt feelings, and hostility. Then, when that happens, work itself can become difficult.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      There’s a couple things I’d look at here.
      The first is did he give good advice? I am leaning toward yes because it sounds like the counselor idea worked okay. Some people give great advice but they are not that great a person in actuality. A doc told my very sick husband to get a will, power of attorney, DNR etc lined up because he was going to use all that paperwork. This is a good example of “Correct Advice, Bad Delivery”. Your story here might fit in this category. You can decide that you are keeping the advice and ditching the person. We went and got all that paperwork and ditched the doc. Some people help with problems and on the inside they just cannot cope with the problem themselves.

      The next thing I would look at is your coworkers. Why are they telling you this now that you CAN’T do anything about it? They should have told him to keep that info to himself OR they could have told you he was blabbing. What I might consider here is simply saying, “Well, I guess I can’t do anything about that now, if I had known earlier I could have done something to fix that problem.” I might even go as far as saying, “If anyone here has a problem with something I am doing or saying, please come tell me to my face. Life is too short to let these things drag on and on. Let’s talk it out, find a solution and get back to life. I wish he had said it was a problem for him. He gave no indication that he was annoyed. This was a very preventable situation.”

      See here’s the deal. We can’t cut it both ways. We can’t befriend someone, gain their confidence and then tell everyone else we are miserable around that person. He is two-faced, there is a lot of confusion in his brain. You are working on fixing your stuff, however he remains two-faced. If he continues this behavior he will have a long and rocky road in life. You will make out much better.

      So chin up and walk tall. You thought you were talking to a fellow adult. He does not consider himself an adult.
      As to your coworkers, they are probably working on the same level he was, that non-adult level as they engaged in this discussion also. Focus on explaining that the whole situation could have been prevented if he had just indicated the did not wish to discuss such things. Tell your cohorts the whole thing is over now anyway and act like you expect them to move on. And they will, they will go find someone else.

  42. RainyDay*

    I could use some outside perspective and advice on internal moves.

    I work on an excellent team, in a job I don’t like, with a manager who cannot manage or mentor. I was originally in teapot production with the team (reporting to someone else), which I enjoyed, and was promoted to Teapot Manager.

    I’ve come to realize that Teapot Manager really doesn’t fit me. I’ve had multiple conversations with my manager to try and get a better handle on the role, along with frank conversations about my concerns re: workload and long-term goal setting. Every time, they were met with unhelpful non answers. It’s not a good situation, but also it’s not a job I think is a good fit long-term.

    So here’s the tough spot. There’s a position in another department that I’m interested in. I’m qualified, but a bit rusty with some of the requirements. It’s entirely reasonable to think they’d prefer to go with someone with more recent relevant experience. I’d happily apply anyway, but our internal application policy states that I have to talk to my manager before doing so. I get that everything needs to be above board, but this is a) an awkward conversation to have in the first place and b) will be potentially very awkward if I don’t get the job. My manager already knows I’m not happy (and doesn’t really seem to care) but I’m not ready to let them know I’m looking to leave teapot management.

    I’ve been applying to outside positions as well, but don’t want to pass up any opportunities in the meantime.

    Anyone been in this position before?

    1. Non Sequitor*

      Is it possible to have an off-the-record conversation with someone in the department to get an idea about who they’re looking to hire. Do you know anyone well over there? If not and you’re truly unhappy, I would say go for it. The worst that can happen is your boss is now fully aware that you’re unhappy, instead of peripherally aware and ramp up your outside job search

    2. The Vulture*

      I’m in that position now. It worked for my coworker, who got a good position in a different department, but it was an awkward conversation where he was overtly and clearly happy to see her go, and she kind of had to be like…I might not get it…My boss is somewhat mercurial, and he made his dissatisfaction with my coworker very clear, so I think he’d be disappointed to learn I was searching, and I’ve made an effort NOT to reveal my search at work, so…I think for me it may end up not being worth it, but your mileage my vary depending on how fed up you are and how much you want to get out! If I was looking hard and actively enough that I thought I’d definitely get at least some job within a couple months, I’d probably be willing to take the chance.

    3. [insert witty username here]*

      Haven’t been in that position before, but could you emphasize you want to get back to focus on XYZ skills (the ones you’re a little rusty on)? Kind of an “expanding my horizons” vibe? That might make it less obvious and put the focus on hard skills, not soft skills or personalities.

      1. RainyDay*

        I was going to go this route, but it’s a pretty thin veil. I have projects I’d be leaving behind – of course – and I don’t think that would go over well. But that may be what I do, and hope for the best.

    4. Catwoman*

      I have been in this position before and, while awkward, these discussions went well with my managers. My background and the circumstances may different to yours though. I work at a public university and have worked in three different units. The first unit is known on campus for hiring entry level folks who often go on to other units in the university after a year or two. That one was easy because that conversation is basically expected after you’ve been in the job for a certain period of time. I switched earlier than a lot of people (<1 year in) but made it clear in my conversation to my manager that this was because the position I applied for doesn't open up very often and was a perfect for my degree and so-far work experience. He agreed and I had full support for my move. I was in second unit for just over two years and when I left there it was under more difficult circumstances. I was really burnt out in my position and my direct manger was in an interim position so he didn't have a whole lot of motivation to bend over backwards to convince me to stay. Basically it had become clear that I wasn't going to move up in the second unit and my best options would be in another unit. I think we were both sad that I was leaving but recognized it would be for the best. I got a strong recommendation there too for my current position in third unit.
      In both of these scenarios, I found it helpful to outline the specific reasons why the outside positions interested me and what I would be gaining from the switch. This can be helpful to open up a conversation with your manager about how you'd like your position to change if you don't get a new position and what you're looking for in professional development.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I have seen work is to seem kind of baffled and say, “Gee, this position is open and I really had not thought about other work anywhere else, so I am kind of surprised to find myself interested in this.” You are surprised and you had not been thinking about working else where. You’re not sure if they would even consider you, but you would like to apply anyway. Carry an air of “If I don’t get it, it’s nothing I had my heart set on anyway.”

  43. DouDouPaille*

    Can any hiring managers weigh in on chronological resumes vs. skills-based resumes? Debating whether to change mine up. I have a steady work history, but I’m just not getting bites with the traditional format and I’m wondering if switching to a skill-first format would help. But I don’t want to risk getting immediately put in the bin if employers generally don’t like this format.

    1. Ali G*

      I have a combo resume. Upfront I have a Profile Section that includes my brief overview sentence, the a section that is called Key Accomplishments with 2-3 bullets (depending on the job) explaining accomplishments (specific examples) and then I have a Key Skills section with a handful of bullets with technical or other expertise tailored to the job as well. These are things like certifications, technical skills I am very proficient in etc. It is about the first half of the first page. Then I do chrono for my work experience, volunteer work and then education. My resume is 2 pages.

      1. Ali G*

        BTW I am not a hiring manager. This is a format I settled on after, like you not really getting any bites with a traditional chrono resume and was developed along with advice from a recruiter that is well respected in my area.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I imagine it varies significantly by industry, but in mine (nonprofit program staff) chronological is definitely the way to go.

      A skill-based resume won’t be immediately thrown away, but it’s not standard and, frankly, frustrating. It’s so much harder to read, and it raises suspicions that you’re trying to cover something up. (That’s literally my first thought when I see one.)

    3. Schnoodle*

      As HR who screens resumes…please keep to traditional. Other formats make me take more time to understand your job history, and makes it look like you’re hiding something (even if you’re not). If it takes me too much time to figure it out (and I’m talking about less than a minute when I have 500 to go through), then it’s in reject pile.

    4. Susan Sto Helit*

      Mine is broken up into relevant work history (within the industry) and other work history (below it). Within the work history I highlight the keywords for the specific skills being used in bold so they can be seen at a glance. Key skills go at the bottom.

      Another thing you could try though, if you’re able to keep things concise, is a two-column CV. Work history goes in the left, wider column (approx 2/3 page), and key skills (or whatever you consider important – mine includes niche stuff specific to my industry) can be summarised in the right-hand narrower column. It lets you have two things at the top of the page.

    5. Horizons*

      Unless you know skills-based is acceptable in your field, hard NO. I just went through a search and non-chronological resumes were a complete PITA to interpret and rate.

    6. Oxford Coma*

      This doesn’t sound like your issue, but chronological can be A Problem when you’re in a field that tends towards short-term contract work. If you aren’t sufficiently explaining yourself, you look like a job hopper. My team tossed several resumes recently because we just couldn’t tell what was a “permanent” position and what was a freelance.

    7. ronda*

      i have a combo, but my skill table is for the softwares I have used categorized by type and I want a job in software.

      So if it is something like that, I think they like that summary. If it is soft skills, not so much.

  44. Non Sequitor*

    The workplace is getting weird. Senior Boss is complaining about Junior boss (who I report to). Colleague is complaining about junior boss. I’m just sitting there not really saying anything. Though Senior boss implied that she had promotional plans for me. The kicker is that I’m not really looking for a promotion, but I recently wrapped up managing a project that everyone was pretty pleased with (got a bonus). I’m wondering whether my positive work on this project is drawing negative attention to Junior boss.

    I’ve been in this situation (on both sides) in the past. And I’m trying to stay kind and neutral about it (which part of me feels might be encouraging to those who are venting to me). But, just like last time I am getting super tired of the hints and asides and wish someone would just be honest and put their cards on the table. It may have to be me if these conversations come up again.

  45. Amber Rose*

    This week I successfully invited myself to lunch with some coworkers. I have never done that before and thought I would actually pass out from nerves but it was fine in the end. Count another win against anxiety.

    Question: how do large companies handle ensuring product shipment quality? Right now, if a customer calls and says their crate was missing X item, we don’t really have a good way of proving if that’s true or not. Just taking them at their word isn’t an option, since the thing most people call about missing is in the thousands of dollars and takes weeks to bring in. Theoretically, the shipper is supposed to take pictures, but the pictures are often extremely blurry or don’t actually show the whole shipment. We also only do this for custom builds, not small “I need 10 elbows and 5 feet of tubing” type orders.

    Our general manager wants the shipper to take pictures of even the little ones, but we really don’t have a good way of storing those pictures, and the shipper doesn’t have time. The reason the photos we have suck is because he’s so frantically rushed all the time. Nobody seems to know what to do, but it really looks bad on us when a company calls because they can’t find their thing, and we have to get them to send us pictures of everything they did get and try to figure out what happened.

    1. writelhd*

      Fixing issues with missing shipments also takes time to deal with. And that time costs the company money too. Plus the replacement costs if you replace the item, or customer goodwill costs if you refuse to. Maybe finding a way to start quantifying how much these errors will make it easier to justify prioritizing the time for the shipper to take pictures? And communicating that cost to the shipper? Or else you might find the cost isn’t so bad and it’s the cost of doing business you choose to accept.

      If there’s a request from the GM to take pictures, he’s also got to enforce it. Over and over again. If he or she says to do it, but doesn’t follow up and enforce, especially if he or she also in other ways incentivizes the shipper to keep going fast and disincentives from taking the pictures, mixed messages are being sent and it won’t change.

    2. Rosemary7391*

      I’m not in this line of work at all… but would it be possible to point a cctv at the packing table such that you could see what went in the box? Then you could just match up the time the packing slip was printed with the cctv record to figure out what happened.

    3. Bea*

      Here’s the thing. If it’s missing, they don’t have to pay for it. If they prepaid with a card, welcome to chargebacks :( they will get their money back.

      It’s up to the seller to insure the items are there. If an entire crate is missing, file a claim with the shipper. That’s a company’s responsibility. Not the customers.

      It’s basic business risk. Even in customized orders that take weeks. I know all too well, I’ve worked manufacturing and distribution for over fifteen years. Your manager needs to suck it up and blacklist anyone who has excessive claims if you think they’re liars. Been there. Done that.

    4. Bea*

      To answer your question about big businesses. They use scan guns for everything that goes in a shipment.

      They also never fight a customer who reports a missing item. Look at Amazon or Grainger or Uline. Huge distribution centers have that built into the bottom lines.

      You can’t focus on believing or disbelieving customers. I have had some scumbags in my life but given regulations and standards, you build it in like a retailer builds in shrinkage.

    5. Lissajous*

      We do the take a photo thing; we aren’t big enough to be assigning bar codes to items and have everything go into and come out of stock. Items and materials are purchased for the job; and photos are taken – at the box, crate/pallet, and sea container level.

      We’re still in transition on this, and yes it’s a bit painful, but it’s already saved us a decent chunk of change* just on one of my projects. (We have clients all over the world, and so shipping costs alone for replacement stuff can be pricey.)
      (* “We can’t find this thing!” “See this photo of the open sea container, and the tank behind the crate? That’s the thing.” “Oh.”)

    6. Observer*

      A few thoughts. If you really need to be able to argue this, then you have two choices. Either the shipper takes the pictures – and does them right – no ifs, ands or buts. Or you put a camera in place that records everything that goes past it. If you have a security system, this should be fairly easy to do.

      If you go with pictures, you go with a very simple standard naming convention for the files and one default place for it. Something like yyyy-mm-dd-cust. Unique names that are easy to track down and don’t take a lot of thinking to come up with.

  46. Dee Dee*

    Is it weird to not get contacted by recruiters very often?

    I work in a digital space as a strategist. I often hear co-workers and other people in my industry talk about getting contacted by recruiters with some frequency. This never happens to me. Should I be concerned? I try to do a certain amount of personal “branding” on LinkedIn, keeping my profile clean and up to date, publishing articles relevant to my job, and all that stuff. I have turned on the setting to say I am open to opportunities. But nobody ever reaches out to me.

    (Sorry if this is maudlin-maybe I’m just feeling self-pity because my current gig’s really unfulfilling lately and I want to feel wanted!)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not concerned, but this has been my experience as well. Others in my industry seem to be getting recruiters chasing them down all the time. I’ve gotten almost nothing. Not that recruiters chasing you down is always a good thing. And I haven’t had problems finding jobs. It’s just… odd.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Also my experience. I *used to* get a lot of recruiters contacting me….for very basic, several steps below my current position, completely in the wrong field/geographic area type positions, often from the same recruiting company. I finally called them up and asked them to look at my LinkedIn profile, and then look at what they were sending me. Also, take me off your list that was sold to you by my college, thank you. Now I very rarely hear anything from recruiters, but I have no problem getting a new job. *shrug*

    2. writelhd*

      I don’t get a lot of hits either. I have a really niche job in a pretty niche industry. But, also, I don’t have a resume posted on indeed or other big places. People who I do who do, get lots of recruiter contact. I have thought that perhaps it was just that simple. Most of that contact seems of dubious worth, though.

      1. writelhd*

        people who I *know* who do have resumes posted on job search sites like indeed or monster, I mean. Blarg.

    3. ContentWrangler*

      How many connections do you have on LinkedIn? I’ve heard having reached the 500+ level on LinkedIn makes your profile pop way more often for recruiters.

    4. Ms. Meow*

      There’s an option on LinkedIn that you can turn on to show that you’re open to recruiters, and you can put info about the types/locations of jobs you’re interested in. I never got contacted by recruiters, but then I turned that feature on and I started getting contacted.

  47. Nervous accountant*

    I have so much going on at work, but honestly it’s a bunch of little things. Personal life is crazy AF right now (dealing with international inheritance issues & my mom) that work is my only source of sanity rihjt now.

    On another note, a cw inreoduced me to someon as their friend, not just cw! That was nice!!!!

    1. Boredatwork*

      Hey, sorry to hear about your issues. :/

      I’m glad you have a CW friend! That really makes all the difference surviving long hours and stressful times.

  48. For AAM Lawyers*

    Friends and I are studying for the bar, and one’s boyfriend passed away very suddenly this week. I’m feeling distracted, and then mad at myself for feeling distracted because this is a big deal. Any advice on how to deal with grief while studying? I know everyone grieves differently, but it would be nice to hear from anyone who has experienced this, as I’m having trouble finding advice on this subject.

    2. Andraste*

      Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that! I lost a friend in law school but 2L year, so my advice isn’t strictly applicable but I hope it helps. I think it’s really, really important in law school and in bar study to make time for yourself to be a human being, too. Take time to put the books away and go to events that you want to go to, such as the wake or funeral, remembrances with friends, etc. Don’t shut it out because I think it will ultimately make you feel worse. I know there is a lot of pressure to be constantly studying for the bar, but I think especially two months out that is pretty unhealthy. When I was prepping for the bar a few years ago, I stopped studying every day around dinner time and tried to take one day off a week. It was fine. I still passed and got to have time at the end of the day where the pressure valve released a little bit. I also took study breaks where I went on walks or went to the pool, just to get out and move a bit. Lastly I’d encourage you to seek out some counseling if you have time and resources, even if it’s just on a temporary basis. Bar study anxiety was getting to me, so I saw a counselor weekly during bar prep. Grief plus all that pressure and anxiety has got to be intense. Take care of yourself through it the best you can and access resources that are available.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      Not sure if you’ll still see this since it’s a little delayed, but I only have two possible suggestions, since this is really horrible and I am so sorry that this happened. A) Use bar studying as a way to keep busy while grieving – it might give you a sense of routine that will help you in this difficult time. B) Take the time you need to grieve and support your friend. Life happens, and if you end up not passing the bar because of this major life event, then so be it. Some things are just more important. You can take the bar again. It’s also very possible that you will still pass, but just keep that in mind that it is OKAY if you do not.

  49. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Tomorrow I’m giving my first technical conference presentation! I’ve given lightning talks before (including one excerpted from this talk), but this will be my first long talk.

    Here’s hoping this will lead to more similar opportunities in the future!

    2. AnotherGenXDevManager*

      Congrats! I suspect it will lead to new opportunities – easier to get other proposals accepted when you’ve been accepted once, you could give the talk at local community groups, etc :)

  50. X*

    It’s performance review time at my workplace, where I have been working just over a year. I filled out the self-evaluation and sent it in. My supervisor returned it with his comments ahead of our meeting with our boss. And I’m confused.

    Reading the feedback, there appear to be more negative comments than positive ones. He would like me to improve in 3 different areas, from what I understand. I’m receptive to the feedback and happy to work on my weaknesses. What’s confusing is that the rating he gave me is: “Performance consistently meets and frequently exceeds all established goals/expeectations for this position.”

    That seems incongruent with the written feedback because that is more negative than positive. What gives? Is he overall happy or unhappy? Am I missing something? Should I ask him? How would I even phrase that?

    1. X*

      I would like to add that I say that he would like me to improve in 3 areas because he wrote in his comments that I did not meet 2 of the goals set in the last review (9 months ago) and so they are carrying forward, and also that it takes me longer to complete the tasks than is expected. If this is all true, then how could my rating be “consistently meets and frequently exceeds all established goals/expectations for this position.”

      I’m baffled.

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Maybe you’re already doing well enough but improving on the feedback would turn you into a rockstar, or the things he wants you to improve on are “would be nice” things rather than “required” things.

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      It’s incredibly easy to end up focusing on all the things that are wrong, rather than the things that are right. Imagine that a performance review is like a constructive review you’d do for anything else – most of the things you pick up on are going to be the things you’re asking to be changed/improved, because you’re fully focused on turning something into the best thing it can possibly be.

      You have to consciously remind yourself to be positive too, and point out the things that are great. That feels less necessary, because the things that are already great don’t NEED your feedback.

      Your boss probably just isn’t realising that he’s not balancing his feedback correctly. But if he says you’re exceeding expactations, trust that you are. It’s just he’s forgotten that the people receiving feedback need to hear the good stuff too.

    4. only acting normal*

      Are you new to the field or the job role? You could have met and exceeded the expected progress, but still have progress to make in the areas of feedback to become ‘fully fledged’ in the role.
      E.g. Where I work, just because we give a new grad a great 1 year review doesn’t mean they’re done developing.

      1. X*

        Yes, I’m new to both the role and the field to all extents and purposes (not a recent grad, though). Do you think that because they know I’m new the expectations are somewhat tempered for me?

        1. only acting normal*

          Depends whether your performance goals are linked exclusively to the role or if they are specific to you. The nature of the work where I am is such that almost no-one in a completely-new-to-them role (new grad or not) could be fully up to speed inside a year.
          Or your boss may have balanced their praise and critique badly.

    5. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      The last time this happened to me, I got a lot more clarity once we talked about the evaluation together. She was focusing on getting really detailed about stuff I could improve on, but she was satisfied with my performance overall, so it looked way worse on paper than the way she described my work in person.

      1. X*

        I’m hoping this is the case but I don’t know how to bring it up. I’m also nervous because I plan to ask my supervisor for a letter of recommendation when I apply to graduate school at the end of the year, and I’m worried that the things he wrote about in his review will be in the letter! That would be very bad.

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          In this situation, you may want to listen to his feedback and criticisms first. Then, if you still think things are leaning towards the negative end of the spectrum, you could say something like, “I noticed that my overall rating was ‘consistently meets and frequently exceeds all established goals/expectations for this position.’ What are some things that you think I am doing particularly well?” It might sound like you’re fishing for compliments, but in a work context, it does help to know what you’re doing right!

    6. Anna Canuck*

      Well, the overall rating may be what you need to get your pay bump or whatever after this meeting. Your boss generally likes you and your work, but identified the things that could be better if you were perfect in every way. Some bosses don’t consider a review complete without some “helpful hints” to get better. If there are other reports to this person, you could informally ask them if their reviews are kind of similar.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Take a detached look at those three areas. How much of your work day involves those three areas? How often do you cross into the path of those areas during your day?
      Does it sound something like this: “OP A builds great skyscrapers. We love her skyscrapers. But she cannot remember to close the window at night. And we really need her to close the window at night before she leaves.”
      In other words ask yourself how huge the negative stuff is. I’d be very worried if I built skyscrapers and the boss complained that they were always leaned at an angle. OTH, if the boss is complaining that I need to shut my window then that is very fixable.

      I have always felt that reviews should include a few things the person is doing right so they know to continue doing those things. But I get odd looks on that one. Sorry, but people cannot mind read and just intuitively know that they are doing something correctly. It is helpful not to expect too many good things on a review. The bosses tend to cut it down to the bad stuff.

      My next step in logic is to believe that if the boss is talking about it then it is because it’s fixable. And the boss thinks as an employee I am worth the effort of ironing out these issues. You got a good overall rating, let that comfort you, even if you are not sure why it should. Just incubate that for a while, “I got a good overall rating.”

      It’s fine to ask the boss how he decides what overall rating to give. Then you will start to find out what he looks for as important.

    8. Wari Warsi Khatan Gaya Si*

      “Meets and exceeds” is common performance review jargon that essentially means you’re just doing your job. Companies will frequently claim that “all of our employees are excellent – the higher level ratings are for those people who go beyond excellence” or some such. For example: at my current day job, if someone gets the top-most appraisal, it is said that they “walked on water”.

      One thing you can do is discuss your review with your boss and ask “what do I need to do to improve my next review?” Let them know you are serious, and have them give you some concrete goals. No boss is going to put it in writing that “if you do A, B, and C by next February, you’ll get an outstanding review”, but take notes and proceed to really work in those areas, and also make it a point to keep your boss informed of your progress / accomplishments. There are no guarantees on this kind of thing. But, at the very least, if you really do the things your boss asked you to do, and you’ve kept him aware of your efforts, perhaps he’ll at least level with you about his reasoning. This may come as a shock to you, but sometimes bosses and managers are bound by rules and policies such that they can’t give the rating that they feel an employee truly deserves.

  51. Work/school anxiety*

    How do y’all deal with anxiety about having (potentially) made a job mistake?

    I resigned a good job in March to go on to grad school. At first, I was happy with my grad school choice, but as the time gets closer, I find myself having second thoughts, feeling like I should have picked School B instead of School A. (To be clear, there’s nothing *wrong* with School A, I’m just missing some of the opportunities at School B.) All this anxiety is causing me to wish I hadn’t resigned my good job in the first place, just to flub up grad school choices, but of course, all these choices are firmly in the past and there’s nothing I can do about them. I have to chill about this, and I am terrible at chilling. (I have been randomly applying for non-grad school jobs, just to see if anything pops up before I actually have to move.)

    I’m a woman of faith, so my family/therapist have reminded me of how my beliefs should shore me up and give me confidence in this time, and that does help. But I wake up every morning in a bit of a panic and am prone to grief and anxiety, when I should be excited. Looking for practical tips for dealing with transitioning and uncertainty and self-doubt in between school/work.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      We all make mistakes? I still regret which grad school I ended up choosing. But, oh well. My life has gone on. I don’t think it’s for the best in the sense that it’s better than if I’d chosen the other school, but it’s also just what happened, and my whole life hasn’t been defined by what grad school I wrongly chose. Hopefully your whole life won’t be defined by this decision either.

    2. Non Sequitor*

      I also picked a grad school that wasn’t exactly what I hoped it would be. But having the degree is better than not having the degree. And nothing is perfect. Focus on what you can accomplish where you’re at. (If it’s truly dire, transfer)

    3. Buckeye*

      A couple of years ago I found myself unexpectedly pregnant and I quit a really good job in order to move closer to my family. I’m still not sure that it was the right thing to do. When I’m feeling panicky about it, I try to remind myself that I can’t go back and do it over and that I have to live and work with the hand that I currently have. I also keep a mental list of all the things I do like about the decision I made.

      That doesn’t really feel like super helpful advice, but know that you aren’t alone! I also take a daily anti-anxiety medicine that really helps me, but I know that isn’t for everyone.

      1. Catwoman*

        Remind yourself of the reasons why you chose School A in the first place. What about the school or the program made it feel like the right decision? What were the downsides of School B? You can’t wade in the same stream twice, and you made the decision based on who you were at that time with the information you had at that time. If there is new information that may change your decision and you have time to, by all means reassess…but don’t obsess. Try to understand if this fear/panic/anxiety is coming from facing the unknown or from genuine regret about the decision you’ve made. If you can’t change the decision, then focus on reminding yourself of why you made that decision.
        Also understand that you can’t know what the outcome of grad school is going to be. Accept that this is scary. You may make connections or learn things about yourself or your field that will really change your career path. After graduate school and my first professional positions after that, my thinking about my career path and what’s important to me in a job are very different from what they were when I entered graduate school. This is a good thing. It means you’re growing as a person. Even if you look back on this decision years later and think you should have made a different choice, you will be coming from a place of having learned more about the world and yourself and will be able to use that wisdom moving forward. Humans learn best by doing. You are doing. Congratulate yourself!

    4. AlmostAcademic*

      Honestly, it is SO common to have second thoughts about grad school. Basically everyone in my cohort had cold feet at some point before actually moving down and starting, and some of us are still dealing with feeling half-in half-out. That being said, none of us actually regret being here (we’re just wrapping up first year).

      So basically, it sounds like you are going through something totally normal for this transition period! What’s helped me get through it is making a list of the reasons why I chose to go to grad school, and what I’m hoping to get out of it. It reminds me that I did think through this decision, it’s the right one for me, and helps to provide focus on where to put my energy in projects. I also found that I calmed down a lot once I was actively involved in a project that had ties to things I was excited about learning / already had some experience in already. Maybe see if there is anything that you can be working on in the meantime (skills, reading, or project-wise) to help you feel more settled?

    5. Rat in the Sugar*

      As another woman of faith, I’ve found that engaging in the rituals of my religion can be very soothing at times when I’m freaking out. YMMV, however! I’m Roman Catholic, and we have a looooot of rituals. Honestly that’s kinda what they’re for sometimes–when you’re not sure what to do with yourself, you can just follow the preset pattern and let your mind relax for a bit.

      During some of my own most stressful times, I found myself saying prayers and singing hymns more frequently, as well as doing things like abstaining from meat on Fridays, and I found that it helped me feel more grounded. Maybe that kind of thing would help you, too? I’m not talking about saying the sort of heartfelt, spontaneous prayers that can happen on the spot, but rather just finding a little prayer book and repeating the words someone else has already written. The familiar cadence and patterns will hopefully soothe your brain. :)

    6. Thlayli*

      I’m not particularly religious at the moment (I had faith, lost it absolutely and became an atheist, and now I would say I’m agnostic/partly religious). However I have experienced plenty of times things that seemed awful or the wrong move at the time but looking back they were the right thing for me in the long run. It’s happened often enough that I don’t think it can be just coincidence, and it’s part of the reason I’m not atheist anymore.

      So my advice to you would be to take solace in your faith and trust in God / Karma / the universe / whatever your personal faith is. Trust in God’s plan and remember What’s for you wont pass you by.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      For me my best rebuttal is to reaffirm my determination to make the absolute best out of the situation. You can decide to be on the look out for opportunities to maximize your choices. Start with, “Hey at least it’s not School C, which would totally stink.” Then move on to saying, “I will look around for opportunities in this setting.”

      I have a theory that anxiety sometimes comes with the need to firm up our commitment to our plans and ourselves. Let’s face it, we can invest in ourselves and think, “Oh is this the right move for me?” And the answer to that question could be, “I am going to make this work well for me no matter what. I will ask for help when I need it. I will do all the work involved to the best of my ability.” Meet the anxiety thoughts with thoughts of affirmations and determination.

      Don’t shoot yourself for doing a self-check. Self-checks are pretty healthy, normal. This means you can take part of that anxiety and say that some of it is normal self-check stuff. This gives you some wiggle room when the affirmations and determination are not quite cutting it.

  52. Environmental Compliance*

    I went to my boss yesterday after talking with the clothing vendor about the very ill-fitting men’s sizing only FR suits we are being told to wear. I had gotten a go-ahead from the vendor that taking the suits off site to a tailor wouldn’t affect the contract or safety, and was going to ask if my company would cover the costs.

    Boss asked me very incredulously if they had offered women’s sizing (nope, they handed me a men’s large). Wasn’t too happy at vendor for the fitting shenanigans, and was making a phone call as I left. He also went ahead and gave permission for me to NOT wear the entire suit, and instead get a lab coat like the lab staff, since we work in essentially the same areas – I never was supposed to have a full suit. So I get a lab coat now instead, and no longer have a seam crawling up my bum!

    Unfortunately the gal in the labs that’s complaining about the lab coats being too large (which I totally understand, they are not fitted) has decided I need to be her champion about it, and has decided she’s going directly to head of HR. I have no idea why she hasn’t talked to Boss, and unfortunately in the way she’s going about this it isn’t looking good for her. It’s a lab coat, PPE isn’t usually meant to be fully fitted, and they’re trying a few different options right now to get her shorter sleeves, but the lab coat isn’t going to fit like the graphic tees she usually wears. I talked with her a little bit about logistics (having a completely separate vendor from everyone else for 1 employee is one thing she’s demanding) and giving the front staff time to figure out options for her, but she’s insisting on digging herself a hole.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        He’s pretty awesome. I think it boiled down to him starting the process, assigning it to a couple people, who then had one of them fib on whether or not Boss had approved XYZ. Boss had expected it to be handled, and then it wasn’t, but no one really knew who exactly decreed the change or who to go to to actually get a solution.

        We happen to have a lovely office manager who 1) knows *everything* about *everyone* and 2) is happy to help if you bring it up as a “halp I don’t know who to talk to about this issue after trying X, Y, and Z” and not a “gawd I hate everyone and everything”. She got me the clothing company’s contact, and told me who was supposed to be doing what.

        Fun fact: Boss brought in a smoker today and is making brisket? chicken of some kind? some delicious smelling something for the entire facility. So everything smells like smoked deliciousness right now.

    2. Chemical engineer*

      Yay for reasonablness. I wanted to add my experience with FR that needed tailoring. In my case women’s sizes were offered, but not in short length, so I needed them hemmed. My company had no problem with me having that done and paying for it, I just had to make sure the right thread was used. I’m in an area with lots of chemical plants, so the tailor I went to was used to that.

      For the lab coat, at my company those didn’t come in women’s, so I had to get the sleeves shortened. Not having the sleeves too long is a safety issue in the lab, so they do need to fix that. The other fit issues sound like she needs to deal.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, I don’t know why the clothing company’s selection was so limited. This is a pretty industry heavy area, it’s not like we’re the only ones needing this. They had only 1 option for FR, which is apparently why we have navy blue suits.

        The office manager is working as fast as she can to get a smaller size for Lab Tech. We all got to request our sizes so I don’t know why Lab Tech didn’t request a smaller size at the time, and it’s going to take a couple days at least to get things ordered. But Tech seems to think she needs an immediate fix, and that it needs to involve HR because women shouldn’t have to wear men’s clothes. Well, she’s not *wrong* necessarily, but the lab coats are unisex, and you have to try to work with people to get things fixed….not throw a fit. :/ I totally, totally get being frustrated and even venting about it, but things don’t get better by exploding at your supervisor.

        1. lost academic*

          We’ve had the same issues with FRs. Also the women’s sizing is wildly strange – the mens is fairly consistent, but the women’s assumes, it seems, that women are 5’2″ or something. Kind of a lose-lose. My solution has, over time since FR clothing is crazy expensive, to stick with the coveralls that are much looser and better for winter work, and slowly accumulate regular FR shirts and pants for more regular/warmer work. Even there the pants sizing is frustrating but luckily Ariat has a bunch of better-tailored women’s FR!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I really, really wanted coveralls when this whole thing began, but someone vetoed it (and not the Boss, someone down below who blamed Boss) because I personally thought it’d be easier – especially for winter. We get really cold whipping winds here, and I’m not confident that the suits will be warm enough.

            I’ll keep Ariat in mind! I didn’t know they had FR clothes. I’d love some good FR jeans to go with my snazzy, weirdly blue lab coat.

            (Also, as a 5’2″ woman constantly hemming every pair of pants I ever get, since I’m too tall for petites and too short for regular – mwahahahaha! )

            1. pbnj*

              I have coveralls, and the wind cuts right through them, but they’re ok if you wear sweatpants or jeans underneath. Plus they’re men’s so the crotch hangs down way low, and I have to wear long shorts underneath. I need to switch to women’s one of these days, now that it’s an option.

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                For some reason my men’s pants in these darn suits is really, really high in the bum. I never expected to have a seam get so inappropriately familiar with me in men’s pants, since I also own a couple pairs of men’s flannel lined jeans for winter trail rides, and those have a nice low crotch.

                I don’t know if you could comfortably wear anything under the suits, they’re meant to fit as normal clothes (or at least – that’s how the company told us to fit them). So I was thinking with coveralls at least you could throw something warm under.

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          Your colleague has a point, and HR needs to deal with it. Not sure if it would rise to the level of an EEOC complaint, but your employer has decided to source work clothing from a supplier that is unwilling/unable to provide appropriate clothing for female employees. Talking with HR about possible gender discrimination is not throwing a fit. This is an issue for HR.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            The problem with going straight to HR is that she’s not actually said anything to the person who ordered it. As in, Boss had no idea we weren’t offered women’s sizing until I went to ask him about tailoring. She’s jumping several steps in the process and not bringing up fit issues, she’s bringing up ONLY that the patriarchy is bringing her down. That is not an efficient way to go about this.

    3. only acting normal*

      Yay! Success!
      Shame about your colleague digging a hole for herself rather than learning from your positive experience.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’m really hoping she thinks about the discussion we had. Technically, I’m on the same level as her supervisor, and I don’t think that has clicked yet. She seems really desperate for a similar aged female work friend, tbh, and I kinda wonder if that’s clouding some of her thought process from the “women must band together and fight the PPE!” rhetoric I was getting from her.

        I think I’m going to have to back off in communications (we both enjoy video games, crafting, & animals, so we talked in a friendly manner), and I am starting to think it probably would be better as far as the workplace goes to back off from this, since it’s coming off to me that she expects me to be more of a friend/champion for causes than is appropriate, if that makes sense.

  53. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    How do you all handle hiring or promoting internally?

    It’s a broad question, I know. Here are some of the more specific things I’m thinking about: When you have an open role, do you first look for people internally who could be a good fit? If you have a strong internal candidate, do you run a formal hiring process (and does it include external candidates as well)? If you’re including both internal and external candidates, how do you compare the candidates to each other? How do you approach all of this with an equity lens? (If your staff isn’t as diverse as it should be, how does that change your thinking?)

    I’m involved with a hiring process right now that includes a strong internal candidate. I’m not the hiring manager or a significant decision-maker for this hire, but it got me thinking and I’d love to hear from you all too.

    1. Guilty of that*

      I’m 100% in a small business world. We promote within and then fill the lower position. It’s easier to do that given training and general business knowledge is hard to farm externally!

      But I’ve heard others post the opening and require full recruitment processes.

    2. The Other Thursday Next*

      My company really gets behind promoting people whenever possible. If there are no candidates to be found internally, then we look externally. We don’t go through the motions of interviewing people if we already have a candidate in mind, as that’s just a waste of time. It’s much easier to bring an internal candidate up to speed in their new role than bringing in someone from the outside.

    3. Fantasma*

      At my company, most roles are open to internal candidates first for three days; some may only be posted internally if the hiring manager feels they can find a qualified internal transfer and would prefer a quick search. After three days, roles are also posted externally. On my old team recently, we had two roles that were posted internally and externally and one that was only posted internally.

      Internal candidates go through a shortened process: informal hiring manager chat then (depending on the org) two or three interviews (vs. a formal phone interview with the hiring manager and then four in-person interviews for external candidates). I recently transferred and had the informal manager chat over lunch and two interviews with peers on the team, and because I’m in the content space, I also produced two one-page writing samples. The process was very quick.

      For the roles I’ve hired for or helped hire for, we start with identifying core responsibilities and critical skills to do the job well. Both internal and external candidates are measured against the same standard. Equity in candidate slates is definitely a consideration, and I do outreach and my own sourcing in diverse professional groups. One thing that helps is to think of representation in terms of what a candidate would add that the team or company doesn’t have (cultural contribution vs. culture fit, which may perpetuate the problem).

  54. CareerSwitchMaybe?*

    I’ve recently given up a job search and decided to stay in my current assistant level job while I focus on some personal goals and law school applications in the fall/winter. Well, obviously as soon as I gave up my search a friend and former colleague sent me a position in his office: it’s a title and pay bump and they seem to have a great culture there. Problem is, due to my plans to go to law school and my partner’s career, it’s highly unlikely I would stay in the job for more than a year (former colleague does know this, but the rest of his office does not). Though there is a decent amount of turnover in my current industry (niche field and people get head hunted regularly) it’s still considered a no-no to stay at a place less than a year. I’ve been at my position three years, so I’m ready for a new challenge but I feel bad knowing I may leave whatever job I take a year in. Any advice on how to handle this situation, or combating the guilt of doing what’s best for my career?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Plans can always change. If you’re interested in the job, I say go for it.

    2. Buffy*

      If it were me, I’d pursue the new job. It would change if I had a firm acceptance to a law school since that seems to be operating in bad faith, but I think you’re good here.

    4. irene adler*

      Take the job. Plans change.
      RE: guilt of doing what’s best for my career
      No one has your best interests at heart – except you. So you have to do what’s best for you/your career. No one else will. People may do things that end up being helpful to your job or career, but that isn’t their sole intent. That does not mean folks have nefarious motives. It’s just that you are the one who is in charge of your career. It is okay to act accordingly.

    5. thelettermegan*

      take the chance! life happens. Things could change in a year. Things could NOT change in a year. They don’t have to know about your law school plans/partner’s plans.

    6. Jules the Third*

      Take it – plans change all the time. If it’s a career-threatening no-no to stop at one year, talk to your partner about staying put another 12 mo.

  55. Argella Durrandon*

    I need some thank you note related advice (I’m originally from a country where they’re not really a thing, working in one where they are).
    After an interview with a Product Manager last week, I sent a thank you email to the HR person who scheduled the interview, since hers was the only email I had, asking her to pass the email on to the PM. This Tuesday I had another interview with the same company, but with a different person. I would like to send another thank you email to restate my interest in the position, but I would have to send it, again, to the HR person. For some reason, it seems weird to send her another email, I feel like I’m bothering her by inundating her with emails that are only partially addressed to her. Am I overthinking this? Should I send the email anyway?

    1. CareerSwitchMaybe?*

      Could you try finding their contact info online? Or if there’s a standard email format first_last@company you could try and piece together the email? If that’s not possible, it may just be better to ask your HR contact for that person’s email address.

      Try to always ask for a business card or an email address. I’ve always sold it as “Wow, I’ve learned so much about Llama Taming Inc. In case I have any more questions, could I get in touch with you after the interview?”

    2. Jack Russell Terrier*

      The first thing you can do is find out the form of e-mail at this company eg firstname.lastname@company.com … . This can often be ferreted out from the website. If not – you could try some different standard forms companies use for e-mail. Another is firstintiallastname@company.org and keep e-mailing until it doesn’t get returned. But this can be needlessly time consuming.

      You can also phone up company’s main number and ask receptionist if they can give you the person’s e-mail.

      But honestly I don’t think it’s a great inconvenience to ask the HR person to forward your e-mail one more time. My main concern would be having to rely on HR person and not knowing if it got through. I would prefer to ask HR person for Interviewer’s e-mail and then e-mail directly.

      Going forward, you could ask the interviewer for a business card.

    3. RainyDay*

      I don’t think it’s a problem to send a quick note to the HR person and ask them to pass along your thanks. I always ask for business cards, but if they don’t have them (or, in one case, it was a VP on a phone interview who didn’t offer his contact info, and I felt it was inappropriate to ask) I’d rather put one more email in HR’s inbox than not follow up.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      You could also email your HR contact and say something like: “I’d like to follow up with (person I interviewed with) after our conversation last week. Are you able to pass on their email address to me, or should I continue to send those communications through you?” I’d then add something like, “I don’t want you to feel like I’m pestering you or treating you like a communications hub!” Or something equally lighthearted (assuming that’s an okay vibe for this company’s culture).

      The HR person can either tell you the email or say the company prefers that they handle the direction of all that communication, and you can send them your follow up email. Either way you’ll know for sure, and won’t be worrying you’re doing the wrong thing.

  56. Grad School Group Hater*

    I’ve just gotta vent about this somewhere: I HATE GROUP PROJECTS!!! I’m in gad school and they are literally the worst. Somehow they bring out every bad personality trait I have and I am trying so hard to be a better group member in each group I’m in, but it is so so so so hard. I feel like everything that goes wrong in the group is always my fault. I’m probably a terrible person, because I’m sure I’m the difficult group members.

    I am also sick and tired of my professors (who have never had a job outside of academia) telling us how group projects will help us work with people in the “real world.” Oh please, I’ve been working in my field of study for almost 5 years at this point and the team/group/collaborative group that I’ve been involved in (at least in my experience) and it is completely different, IMO. In the workplace people are actually accountable for their behaviour, group projects — not so much.

    Anyway, I am dreading the rest of my classes and honest-to-god, I have considered dropping out because of all the group projects. Maybe I should just take a semester off? Either way, I hate this shit!!

    1. HannahS*

      I’m with you. When I was in university I was fortunately able to avoid every class that had group work. I did one group project in my entire degree. Predictably, it was pretty bad. I did miss out on some cool courses (Behaviour in Groups!) but yeah, group projects are just uniquely awful.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You did not miss anything. These group projects take a perfectly good subject and turn it into a nightmare. You would not have learned much about the subject of the course.

    2. Oxford Coma*

      Agreed, the dynamics are never correct. My grad school group work involved a set of students, all with the same skills, divvying up similar work. If one student doesn’t get something done, the other people end up filling in the gaps. My career group work involves a set of employees with different skill sets performing different aspects of a project. If the programmer doesn’t do her share, the advertising associate can’t pick up the slack.

    3. Red Reader*

      I hear you. I just finished grad school in May, and group projects were the woooooorst. But this too shall pass! (And so will you!)

    4. Alternative Person*

      Oh god I hated group projects. The passive aggressive e-mails (that me and the two people doing work would compose whilst snickering). Running tests whilst basically dead on my feet from bronchitis. The professors who refused to do anything even with documented evidence. Telling a lazy group member to shut up in the middle of the presentation because they were not reading from the notes me and the other two people actually doing the work provided.

      It was such a moment when my mum congratulated me and the other two people of basically doing the work of six people, whilst I was very sick and how it showed I really knew how to get stuff done when it mattered.

    5. Boredatwork*

      I’ve always approached group projects, less as a collaborative team effort and more like a boss assigning work to employees. Dole out the work (in an agreed to fashion), set concrete deadlines, give yourself time to review the work and make changes.

      Ultimately, you have to be comfortable accepting the success/failure of the group is on your shoulders.

    6. Fabulous*

      I was reminded last week of a group project I had in grad school (thankfully there were only two of use, but yeesh it was terrible) with the post Alison did linking to Hildi’s comments on Task vs. Relationship-Oriented people. Sounds like you might be a task-oriented person as well and care about the deliverables whereas your group(s) don’t. Maybe by seeing these projects more as an anthropological study of how people work will help you to realign your hatred for grad school?

      http:// http://www.askamanager.org/ 2018/ 05/ do-i-need-to-have-a-better-sense-of-humor-at-work. html

      1. Grad School Group Hater*

        Yeah, I think I’m definitely more task oriented at school! At work I’m a blend of both, I think. I find it easier to work with coworkers (for the most part) because there is so much more at stake in terms of personal relationships, too. I am fortunate in that I trust my coworker so so so so much more than I do any of my classmates.

    7. neverjaunty*

      Your professors, as you know, are BSing you. Group projects have one purpose: to cut down on the amount of grading and supervision they do.

    8. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m 6 years out of grad school and still cringe when I hear the words group project. After one very bad experience where I was moved from the group I picked into a group of lazy bums. I did my work and my work only. I didn’t make/have time to do the whole project. I did 50% of a 3-person project. Made it very clear who did what on the project. Got marked down because the others didn’t do their work.
      After that they were all treated like work projects. The work had to be done, and done right, regardless. If you were in my group and didn’t contribute, we left your name off the final project and told the teacher why. I had one partner come unglued on me (over email, thankfully) because I turned in our final project that only had my work with an explanation to the teacher of all that I tried to get his contribution. He really hated me after I rounded up all the email I sent asking for stuff and sent them back to him.

    9. Dear liza*

      Counterpoint: group projects are often terribly designed and managed by the instructor. I’ve taught classes involving teamwork that employed project management techniques, individual accountability, and explicit instruction about group communication that went well. A key element: nearly all the group work happened during class time, so I could observe, facilitate, and yes, manage the groups. Student evaluations were extremely positive. It makes me sad that most group work in classes are terrible.

    10. Jules the Third*

      I got around problems in group projects by becoming the project manager. The authority of expertise (where expertise = ‘willing to write down the tasks that need doing’) works really well. Looking back, I’d have spent a little more time asking if they saw other tasks, or if they wanted to do stretch assignments (ie, non-native English speaker doing the editing), but otherwise, my group projects were fairly satisfying and actually relevant to my career.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      These group projects are a waste of time.
      In one group, we were assigned a two page paper to complete. I did not know anyone in the group. So they told me to work with the slacker. I did not know he was a slacker until it was too late. So I wrote the bang up paper anyway. Me and slacker got the A, the other folks got a B. I never had that problem again with that group.

      However we had problems with the prof. We ended up in a bind. I asked the prof how to fix the bind. He said, “Do X.” So we did. I thought X was questionable and I would not do it in real life. His response was, “What did you do that for???!!!” So we had to write something to explain it. I love the expression “write something” this means creating a wordy piece of drivel that boils down to BS. I wrote something. I used big words and sounded intelligent. It was clever but would never fly in the corporate world. We ended up being ranked Group #2 for the semester. Not too bad with only 3 out of the 5 people even showing up for the project.

      My worst one was the prof who was using our groups for her study. It was a conflict for her to advise us or steer us because that would effect the outcome of her study. By the end of the semester, NO one was on speaking terms with anyone else in the class. People were angry/crying. I think one person threw something. The course was about group dynamics and behaviors.

      She never sent in my grade, so I never got credit for the course.

    12. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I hated group projects with a fiery passion when I was in school, so much so that I assign them very rarely and exclusively using google docs so I can see what each member wrote. Happily, the higher-ups where I teach have been listening and we aren’t allowed to give a group project unless we grade each member individually.

      For some annoying reason, the teacher training program I attended looooved group work, which always struck me as odd, because teaching is not a group activity. A realistic group project for “pre-service teachers” should focus on problem solving and comparing programs to make sure that everyone is covering similar content, not writing a paper. I remember once I had the opposite problem that most have. We were assigned a ridiculously short paper for a ridiculously large group (4 or 5 people). I forget the exact length, but each of our contributions was less than 100 words. We had a fairly intense member who, the day her section was due (I had taken on the thankless job of combining our sections into something coherent) sent me a rambling piece that was longer than the whole paper was supposed to be. I had budgeted enough time to format and make sure there were no egregious abuses of the English language and I did not have time to pick what we actually needed out of her text. I tried to get her to cut it down, which totally overwhelmed her and left the whole thing on me. I think by the end, I was seriously contemplating just writing her part myself.

  57. all aboard the anon train*

    I know we had a post about recruiters earlier this week, but what is up with recruiters who get annoyed when you don’t answer the phone the second they call you? I always tell recruiters email is better than a phone call.

    I’m working with two recruiters now and I’ve told both of them that I work in an open office environment and have a lot of meetings during the day, so email is the best form of communication, but they still call my cell phone! And one of them has been getting snippy with me (he called four times in an hour) because sometimes I don’t realize they’ve called until a few hours later. I can’t bring my phone to meetings so I can’t check it until I get back to my desk.

    I’m at the end of my patience level with recruiters who think even though I work full-time, I can drop everything as soon as they want to talk, but who would never even think to give me the same respect when I try to follow up.

  58. I’m on my third username*

    I am 2 months into a new job, and I have an odd situation. I work in a cube which is a big change since I had an office at my old job. My coworkers on the either side of the cube have a few different job, and they often hum or sing. It’s nice that they are so happy, and they are great people and I like them a lot, but I have a hard time concentrating with all of the singing! Any suggestions? I don’t want to offend them, and I’m really new. Occasionally I will find a conference room so I can edit or write in peace. My boss has been supportive when I’ve mentioned that I was finding a quiet place to work for awhile. Do I just continue to do that? I don’t want it to seem like I’m never around.

    1. Anonygrouse*

      My sympathies! I have frequently had whistling, humming, singing cube/office neighbors, and I go from zero to full-blown misophonic rage in about 2 notes. (Your framing of being happy that they’re so happy is the kind of attitude I aspire to have!) In my experience, people respond pretty well to just going “Hey, I’m sorry, but I find it hard to concentrate when there is singing [or whatever] happening. For whatever reason I get way more distracted by that than other background noise. Would you do me a solid and cut back?” Some people don’t even know they’re doing it, and if you take the “it’s not you, it’s me” angle then I don’t think normal people will get twisted about it.

      If there are whackadoodle interpersonal dynamics also at play, though, things get trickier — at OldJob there was an epidemic of passive-aggressive whistling for the last 2 years I was there. At that point noise cancelling headphones are the way to go.

    2. WellRed*

      I have this coworker. I can often tune it out, but I occasionally ask her to dial it down (esp. singing). It’s an unconcious habit for her, I think.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        When I was TA-ing we had a very tiny cube farm that smooshed about 80 of us into a small office. I had one cube neighbor that listened to opera at full volume. If it was Italian, he’d sing along with it.

        Thankfully (?) this was also supposed to function as a teaching/study space for our students, so his opera breaks were stopped pretty quickly by a visiting assistant professor.

        I functioned by wearing headphones, constantly, and grouchily eating cookies at my desk while trying to grade.

    3. Tara S.*

      Headphones, and/or keep using the conference rooms. Headphones are pretty de rigueur for cubes, since you get a lot more ambient noise.

    4. Trig*

      WRT the headphones suggestion, if you’re like me, you can’t listen to music with lyrics while writing/editing. Sometimes even classical music is too much for me… but there are ambient noise apps out there! You can have the sounds of a babbling brook and birds singing. You can have a ship at sea with creaking ropes. You can have a gentle rain. There are lots of non-intrusive but still singing/humming reducing options.

    5. thelettermegan*

      Office hummer over here. Just tell them that while they have a beautiful voice, the cubicle singing is distracting. Give them that sheepish look and say ‘I didn’t want to be the office buzzkill because I like that we have such a fun environment, but I have to focus on my thing!’

      If it still feels overly harsh, just ask them if they’re performing anywhere.

      Other options include the noise canceling headphones, earplugs.

      I have a Spotify list full of white noise music. Sometimes I hum along to it without noticing what I’m doing. Some of my coworkers like the humming! Many don’t, so the cycle continues.

  59. anon for this*

    I have a work complaint that feels petty, but I’d like a second opinion about whether others would be annoyed by this too. I work for a small, family-owned company, and have for about 10 years in total, starting as an intern. Over the years I feel like I’ve gone above and beyond for this company, putting in tons of overtime to get projects back on schedule, going ages without vacations because the projects demanded it and essentially doing everything I could to be successful in my role. I’ve gotten tons of praise from clients and I’m pretty sure I do a good job. I never got much/any recognition for this from my managers, but that’s the office culture.

    Then a new employee starts a couple of years ago. Don’t get me wrong, I like her both as a colleague and as a person. She’s easy to work with. But over time I notice she starts to get special treatment–approved for a last-minute two-week vacation during our busiest time (when I put in a request for a single day off in the same period and was denied). Given first pick of all the best projects, ones that my manager knows I would have liked. Given professional opportunities I never was offered. This would be okay with me if I knew she was just a superstar coworker, but I honestly don’t think this is the case. She’s new to the industry, and still asks me for advice fairly regularly. I’ve seen her work, and while it’s good, I don’t think it’s better than mine. I really think it’s for more idiosyncratic, non-work-related reasons on the part of my bosses (I have suspicions but won’t go into them here for fear of outing myself). I will say that we are the same age, race and gender, so I don’t think it’s a discrimination thing.

    So what do you think? Is this BS or am I overreacting? It just stings because I was semi-okay with getting little recognition for the work I do before, but it’s harder to see it being freely handed to someone else. It makes me kind of annoyed at the coworker, to be honest, even though I know it’s not her fault.

    1. HeightsHeifer*

      So I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate for a bit – you say that you think you do a good job but you don’t get recognition from your managers. It may be the office culture, or maybe you are not aware of the level of your coworkers output versus yours. What makes this especially difficult is you say you work for a family-owned company, and Lord Baby Jesus, do many of those have their own hurdles.

      Instead of focusing on your coworker getting certain treatment, bring up the things you want to your manager. Ask for more responsibility, ask for more professional development opportunities, and also ask for feedback. You can’t complain about these things if you don’t ask for them.

    2. Non Sequitor*

      I would add one question. Is your colleague asking for these assignments? Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you’re interested in a project, speak up. Don’t assume your manager knows (or remembers) what your interests are, sometimes they just give it to the person who asks at the right time.

      1. Tara S.*

        I was going to answer along these lines, it may just be she’s being more vocal about her requests/goals in a way that works with your bosses.

      2. Alternative Person*

        This is a good point. I’d also add that managers can be really unappreciative of quiet above and beyond work because they get so used to it happening from a person that it becomes normal. Whereas someone doing noticeable, shiny work can get a lot of attention simply because they make noise about it.

        It might be worth tooting your own horn a bit and seeing how it goes.

      3. anon for this*

        Thanks for the feedback everyone. It’s kind of hard to explain the situation without getting into the weeds of the dysfunction of the office environment and the specifics of my job. Long story short, the kind of plum jobs she’s been getting are ones where there is general knowledge that everyone wants them–they’re the glamour jobs. I suppose it is possible she’s been directly asking for them, but it would be a little redundant, and I don’t have any reason to think she has. I have tried being more vocal with my manager about projects/PD opportunities I’d like, but they just kind of get laughed off. I’ve tried asking for more feedback but that just gets dismissed/made fun of. I do think it’s more of an office culture thing, which of course is the broader issue.

    3. Camellia*

      You’ve worked there for ten years and you started as an intern. So basically you’ve “grown up” at this company – almost like a daughter or son might have. You learned the job, you’ve made your share of mistakes learning it, and you’ve probably maxed out on both. You’ve been there so long, why should they be concerned that you won’t just stay on and continue to do what you do?

      I’ve seen this in two small, family-owned businesses, where the son (in both cases) was more or less ignored and taken for granted, while the “new” employee became “like a son to us” and got all the praise and the plum assignments. They got to start fresh, like a shiny new toy, with no “family history” to contend with.

      For this and many other reasons, I’ve always recommended that people spend three to five years at one company and then move on. By that time you’ve probably learned most of what you can, you’ve made your mistakes, and now you can go to a new company with that hard-earned knowledge and experience, make a fresh start, learn new things again and be able to stretch and grow, and have a chance at getting the praise and the plum assignments.

      1. thelettermegan*

        +1 to this – you started as an intern 10 years ago – they may still think of you as their intern in a way, while this new person is someone they think has ‘new’ knowledge from the outside world and they may be giving her the glamour work to make her feel good about joining a family business.

        To me it sounds like it’s time to move on. You’ve given them ten years, that’s long enough.

      2. anon for this*

        Thanks, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. You’re probably right that it’s time to move on, but if I wanted to get another job in this industry, I’d have to move across the country, so I guess it’s time to seriously think about that. It’s easier to just be annoyed at my coworker!

    4. Squarp*

      So she’s young. Is she cute? Does anyone in mgmt want to have a relationship with her? Does anyone in mgmt have a relationship with her?

      Unpleasant notions to consider. But this kind of thing really does happen sometimes.

  60. Free Meerkats*

    Boss is now officially retired after almost 40 years, as of midnight. I’m still in my position, but now getting Lead Pay (5% bump.) A couple of meetings with the Acting Superintendent (AS) and we’ve set up a structure that will work, at least while the organizational consultant does their study and report. I’m in charge of everything technical in the section, scheduling the work, and things like that; another manager will be taking care of the things that need management signatures. He’s someone I’ve worked with for almost 30 years, he knows he has no idea what we do and respects my knowledge, so that should go mostly smoothly. I’ll still be reporting directly to the AS on some stuff, we’ll have regular check-ins.

    It’s not ideal, but it will work for now.

  61. AnonOnThisPost*

    So I’ve been at my organization for about a year and while I feel I’m making good strides and getting positive feedback, I also feel stuck. My director told me I’d be up for a promotion for a much larger role that is more in line with my career goals but nothing has materialized. In fact, the company seems so disorganized that I wonder if she even has the authority to promote me!

    I’ve been applying to other positions if I come across something interesting but not actively interviewing. I was contacted about a director level job with a public university (I’ve only worked for private companies). I just received an email from the recruiter that I’m a finalist and to confirm I understand their salary offer is non-negotiable. Is this standard? The salary rate is less than I’m currently making but far below market for the responsibilities. Also – would anyone jump ship from a “meh” job to the unknown for a pay cut?

    1. The Other Thursday Next*

      I would be a little taken aback if someone who has only worked with my company for a year was asking for a promotion. Unless it’s a very low-level job where the bar is low, it doesn’t make sense to promote people that quickly. My experience has been that people who moved up too fast were actually being done a disservice and were less successful in their roles than they might have been had they worked 2-3 years in their current position. It takes time to really get everything under your belt and emerge as a rockstar.

      That said, I have had conversations with my team members about their career goals, and one of my newest people has expressed interest in becoming a lead. I agreed that I think she has the right skillset for it, and she is being mentored over the next couple years to attain that role.

      That doesn’t answer your question, really. I wouldn’t jump into an unknown job that is a paycut and far below market.

      1. krysb*

        I absolutely agree with you. Usually when someone is one year into a role, they rank somewhere in between “expert” and “competent.” One year is way to soon to feel like you’re stagnating at most jobs.

    2. irene adler*

      There would have to be something very worthwhile from a job that includes a significant pay cut. Like acquiring a unique skill set that could be parlayed into something big down the line.
      Or, getting into the door of a great company (and moving to other positions at some point).
      Or, the perks are worth it. Like free education, or an association with exceptional individual(s).

    3. Catwoman*

      Non-negotiable salary seems kind of standard at the public university I work at. Because we’re public, there are very strict HR controls on compensation to ensure equity across the university. Unfortunately, this does often result in below-market pay for a lot of roles.
      Definitely ask about benefits. Will be entitled to a pension vs. a 401k-style retirement plan? If it is the latter, does the university offer a generous matching contribution? Are there educational benefits for you and/or your family? Ask about these in addition to the standard health, dental, medical insurance and vacation questions. At my university, the benefits are amazing and do compensate for below market take home pay for me.
      The other thing to consider is work environment. Working at a university is very different from a private company (having done both). University is more flexible and lets me own my time more and generally slower paced. You also have greater access to lectures, community classes, and events on campus. I also work with a diverse group of people from all over the world. It’s not for everybody, but I really enjoy it.

  62. strandednlonely*

    I love my job, but I’m miserable in my current city (no friends, no family, recent relationship break up) and planning to move soon. I’ve been in this job since September 2017 and I have a great relationship with my boss. I work in an industry that is pretty young, where people do tend to only stay in jobs for 1-2 years.
    I’m hoping to move by October/November and will start job-hunting in a few months. But the city I’m moving to is pretty far away – I’ll need to take a whole day off work for any interview I’ll attend. Should I be open with my boss about my job hunt when arranging time off to attend interviews?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      How has your boss handled other departures? Have other people at the company been able to give lots of notice without retaliation or weirdness?

      1. strandednlonely*

        No one from our team, or adjacent teams, has departed since I’ve worked here so I’m not sure how my boss would react. In general though, when people have left I haven’t heard of any retaliation or weirdness within the organisation as a whole.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      This totally depends on your boss. How much do you trust them? Because I have been sort of open with my boss (she knows that I am casually looking), but I don’t tell her about phone interviews, just the day long inperson ones I have to fly too.

    3. strandednlonely*

      Alternatively: Does anyone have any stories of telling their boss and this going well/not so well? I know it is very dependent on my boss, but I’ve heard of people being open and it working out.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I’m open with my boss when I have to fly out for an interview. She’s a reference for me, so I would never keep it from her. However, this is pretty normal in my experience in higher education librarianship. It may not be in other fields.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          My personal rule is never to discuss it. I don’t want my boss having that asterisk after my name when it comes to small favors or assigning plum responsibilities – and I’ve definitely had the experience that a job search took much longer than I thought, and that I ended up staying for months or even years longer than I would have thought. You’ve killed your possibility for advancement when you state your intention to leave (and we get a variable retention bonus that they’re obviously not going to invest in me if they knew).

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I’ve mainly had cases of telling my boss and it going well. Well, I’ve mainly worked in schools, and schools operate on an academic calendar. Even when I’ve worked non-teaching positions (which theoretically could end at any time), it isn’t completely out there to give months of notice to say “I’m not coming back next fall.” I’ve found most schools don’t like disruption mid-year, even for non-teaching positions, so they’re very unlikely to fire you mid-year unless they hate you.

        But even when I was in corporate, I gave about a half year’s notice, and it was fine. People at work (including my boss) even helped me find another job. And I got a counter-offer to work remotely instead of leaving (I didn’t end up taking the offer, even though it was very tempting).

        Again, not saying this is the experience to expect, but this has been my experience. And we hear so many nightmare stories about horrible bosses, I thought it’d be good to share a different perspective.

  63. Murphy*

    Mini-vent: Our university unit is working on a communications plan and while they’ve mostly been talking to outsiders, today I participated in a focus group for people internal to our unit. One person (higher level than me, but not my boss) decided that this focus group would be a great time to a) share some criticism he’s heard from faculty about the email list that I manage (the first time I’m hearing this criticism!) and b) try to re-open a past discussion about how I choose what goes in my emails (a task I’m given very little guidance on, as he full well knows).

    I was pissed. I don’t mind hearing the criticism, but it wasn’t the right forum for it. And a discussion what I do at that level of detail was outside of the scope of the focus group. (It’s a very tiny portion of what our unit does.) Am I crazy to be annoyed about that? I shut him down when he tried to open up discussion about my email list by saying “We’ve had this conversation elsewhere and now is not the time to continue that conversation.” Was that an OK way to do it? He works closely with my boss and I’m afraid he’s going to complain about me.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I would maybe have gone with something more positively-framed that had the same outcome: “Good points, but I don’t want to take up too much of the group’s time talking about something that mostly only I handle, so why don’t I circle up with you offline to talk about the listserv? Who else has something.” Then you should actually circle back though, as he will know if this is just to shut him down.

      1. Murphy*

        That does sound better. I was kind of taken off guard in addition to being annoyed, otherwise I would have said something a bit better.

        1. BlueberryHill*

          When shutting conversations down, I find it best to position the comments as helpful (I’d love to discuss that with you later to give it more time; don’t want to take up your time here; I’m interested in hearing more on that from you, let’s meet later in the day/week/year). Tone is crucial.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you are afraid he is going to complain to your boss, then go to your boss first and tell him what happened and why.
      Just because people work closely does not mean they see eye-to-eye on everything. They could be good friends and still not agree on everything. Let your boss know what happened.

  64. Andraste*

    Hi folks!

    I’m an attorney at an employment-related firm. We just hired a new paralegal who will primarily be working with me. I already have one who mostly works on my cases. My supervising attorney suggested I take the two of them out to lunch next week as a team bonding type thing. I’m happy to do it. My question is–who pays? Do we pay for ourselves or since I am their supervisor and asked them to lunch to I take the ticket for all three of us? I’m fairly young (under 30) and this is my first time taking employees I supervise out, so I don’t quite know how it works yet, ha. Thanks for the input!

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      In this case I think it would be better for you to pay for all three.

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Absolutely you are paying. You invite them, they are junior, this is “team bonding” and YOU are picking up the tab — ON BEHALF OF THE FIRM.

      That last bit is very important. Go back to the supervisor who suggested this and ask them “I figured Restaurant Seven Sleepers With The Good Steaks and Restaurant Isle of Gods With The Nice Fish are both good choices since we won’t be eating off disposable plates and are close enough to get us back in time before the Meeting With The Patrician. Which do you suggest and what’s the budget?”

      Don’t ask for permission to expense it, act as if that is a foregone conclusion…they suggested it, after all. If you haven’t previously expensed something, check with your accounting department and find out how to submit them before you even go back to the supervisor in case you need their signature on something in advance.

    7. Andraste*

      Thanks everyone! Appreciate the feedback, will approach supervisor about how to bill the firm since the consensus is clear.

  65. GreatLakesGal*

    Help! I got a verbal offer on a new job, accepted, and was told by HR that the offer later would be emailed yesterday.

    Still nothing, a day later. Should I contact HR re the offer letter? I have another offer from another company, much less preferred, and I need to let them know by today.

    Is it too demanding to expect the offer letter today? What should I do?

    1. strandednlonely*

      I’d say call them up and ask about it. You were told today, so it’s not unreasonable to check in and ask if you can still expect it today.

    2. Friday*

      If I were you I’d say sorry to bug, but I have another offer and they need my response today so I need your written offer today as well. Good luck!

  66. Ruthie*

    I accepted a new job yesterday! And negotiated $5000 more than what they offered, which I was terrified to do because all the advice I read gave examples of counter offering maybe $4000 more. I had to ask for $10,000 more to get to the middle, and boy did that feel audacious! I was so nervous that my voice cracked when I asked. The very gracious HR manager kindly told me I broke up and asked me to repeat myself, but I’m pretty sure she knew it was my nerves. But it didn’t matter because they still took me seriously. It was stressful, but I’m getting a 20% pay increase! Absolutely worth going way out of my comfort zone for. Here’s what I said: “I’m very excited and think I’d be a great fit. As you know, the offer came in at the very bottom of the range I’m looking for in my next position. Given what I’ve learned about the responsibilities, the benefits package, and what others in the field pay for similar positions, it doesn’t make sense for me to accept unless we can get to the Xs. With that in mind, could you do $Y?”

    I mentioned the Xs because that was my firm walking away point. I realize I may have cut myself short by being transparent about that, but ultimately I was more comfortable with that language and it helped me get to the place where I could make my ask out loud without fainting (but barely).

    3. [insert witty username here]*

      Way to go!!! Hopefully it will be easier the next time! Congrats!!!!!!!!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      She admired you.

      I interviewed at one place years ago, I asked for X. They were offering x minus 1/3. Because the whole thing was at the lower end of the pay scale this is not as huge a difference as it sounds. They had to tell me no. But the lady was SO KIND. She told me she admired me and she said that in the end someone would hire me for what I was asking. It took a while to play out but that is what happened, I ended up at a different place with that X amount of pay. The woman made 20-something me feel so good while say NO at the same time. I still think of her and her kindness.

    6. Ashk434*

      Congratulations! Thanks so much for providing the script you used. might just have to borrow it :-D

  67. Cafe au Lait*

    Needed: articles, blog post and book titles for dealing with toxic people.

    My department works with a woman who is incredibly toxic. One moment she’s fine and friendly. A half-hour later, when a minor roadblock gets in her way, she dials her ire to eleven and lets you have it from both barrels. Here are a few examples:

    * Frequently makes up book titles and accuses staff of lying when we tell her no such book exists.
    * Accuses staff of sabotage when materials she wants don’t arrive as fast as she expects.
    * Accuses staff of hiding material when it’s been mishelved.
    * Expects impossible turnarounds on complicated requests.
    * Expects staff to disregard policies because it’s inconvenient for her.
    * Delays of four hours are unacceptable, and she will call a second department and yell at them for because department one hasn’t responded yet.

    Recently the head of my department said “no more,” and has initiated conversations with the head of her department. She’s been told to back off (yay!), but has chosen to focus on a situation which occurred between her and me as the origination for her reprimand. She’s told others that “Cafe au Lait filed a complaint against me.” All my bosses are aware, and have been proactive on addressing the situation.

    I am done. I will be professional, but I need more tools in my toolbox to deal with her behavior.

    1. MissGirl*

      When dealing with difficult people, I try to give up all expectation they will behave in a normal way. Once I accepted that they would act the way they always had, it became easier to shrug it off.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Kill her with kindness, perhaps? And refuse to engage when her behavior escalates further. Then document the hell out of every unprofessional exchange, accusation, demand or behavior she exhibits toward you or your staff.

      1. Cafe au Lait*

        This has been ongoing for decades. I’ve been part of it for six years, and only recently did someone decide to draw a firm line in the sand. Apparently the previous director my unit and this client got into a screaming match in the lobby of my building.

        1. Observer*

          All the more reason to document your head off. People who have been around for a while have probably gotten desensitized to her misbehavior. When you lay *all of it* out in cold detail, it can be a shock. A necessary shock.

    3. Sexy backpack*

      The Asshole Survival Guide: How to Deal with People Who Treat You Like Dirt By Robert Sutton is satisfying and helpful, especially in the short term.

      Working With You is Killing Me: Freeing Yourself from Emotional Traps at Work by Katherine Crowley, Kathi Elster is more practical and focuses on how you can better yourself.

    4. Mickey Q*

      Document everything. If you can get her to put rants in an email that’s the best way. Then you can hand a file over to the top brass.

    5. As Close As Breakfast*

      If your bosses are all on board, is it a possibility to preemptively come up with plan of when you and other staff are allowed to shut her down? Like, a point at which you can say something along the lines of “You have been told to treat our staff professionally and with respect. The way you are speaking/yelling/acting is not acceptable. I am no longer able to assist you.” Maybe adding on something about who she has to go talk to if she wants assistance (hopefully this would be the head of the department) or further help?

  68. Cobblestone*

    Due to injury, I’m working from home for the next few weeks (I’m in Canada). My remote boss said he’ll accommodate me however I need and we agreed to WFH but did not settle on an end date. I’m a lot slower than normal (injury limits but doesn’t exclude my typing). He asked if I could take on more work, but I had to say no, since I’m struggling to keep up with my normal work load.

    What discussions should I have with him? WFH is usually not done in my office at all, so it’s a nice accommodation and I don’t want to lose it. I could go into the office but it would be a strain on me. I wasn’t asked to provide a doctor’s note.

    I feel I should be more proactive in “proving” that I can WFH efficiently, but I’m not sure I can with my injury. My remote boss has only been my boss for a few weeks, so I don’t think he knows me well enough, and, frankly, I’m not at the top of my game right now to give a good impression. I’m worried.

    1. only acting normal*

      He knows you are WFH because you’re injured, and that it is temporary. You could address it head on (to assuage your own worries if nothing else) – say thanks for his support in the WFH and you’re aware you’re not up to your best productivity levels so thanks for his patience too, and you hope to be back to work/back to full speed in (a realistic) X-Y weeks.

      NB It does seem a bit unfair of him to try to give you extra work on top of your normal load while you’re healing.

  69. KatieKate*

    A grant writing position has opened up at the nonprofit I work for. I have significant writing experience, but zero grant writing experience (I’ve been in programs/events for four years.) How can I position myself as a contender for this position? They’re looking for someone with grant writing & foundation experience, but I check many of the other boxes (significant knowledge of the programs they’re trying to fund, budget skills, etc.) Thanks!

    1. MissGirl*

      Do you know the hiring manager well? This would be a great conversation with them. That way if you’re not there yet, you can at least know the skills you need and perhaps they’d be willing to have you work on a few projects.

    2. Buckeye*

      Depending upon the hiring window you may not have time for this option, but many small nonprofits need volunteer writers to submit proposals on their behalf, so maybe you could get some experience that way.

  70. Rat Racer*

    What do you do when you are completely demoralized at work?

    My situation is untenable, and I am job hunting, but how do you keep your sanity day to day?

    We had a new VP come in from the outside about a year ago, and she has gradually repatriated our department with her inner circle from her previous org. Many of my colleagues were let go. I’m still here but my role has changed dramatically, my career trajectory is now at a deadend, and (this is more of my personal brand of crazy) it is really painful to be relegated to “outsider” standing for no reason other than that I’m not one of the new boss’s “people.”

    With every meeting I’m not invited to, every condescending email I receive from my new boss (who seems to think that we are all very stupid) I just feel like crying – or worse – sulking and being snarky.

    It’s bad enough that I’ve invested 5 years of my life in this role, only to have it fall off a cliff. The last thing I want to do is ruin my reputation by slacking off or being negative. This is a 50-60 hour per week job though, and it is really hard to give so much of myself (my brain, my sweat, my time) under these circumstances.

    How do I get through the day to day until I can get the eff out of here?

    1. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry. Sometimes it can be helpful when you run into those bad moments to think “I won’t have to deal with this forever, I’m going to be gone in a few months.” Detaching yourself from the situation. Sometimes I also find it helpful to focus on the projects that I want to be able to brag about in my interviews. Focusing on polishing yourself for future opportunities may take some of the pressure out of trying so hard where you’re not valued.

    2. Lentils*

      Oh dear, I’m so sorry you’re in such a demoralizing situation. When I was at my old job that was so bad I had literal health issues from the stress, I tried to come up with one thing per day that I looked forward to. Maybe I’d go out for lunch once a month, or put strawberries or a candy bar in my packed lunch, or spend a few minutes chatting with a friendly coworker about a movie we both liked, or buy myself a drink after work. It sounds silly, but if you have even one little bit of joy in your day it really helps. Best of luck to you <3

    3. EB*

      My sister and I are going through this right now at the same time– demanding jobs with bad bosses. I also have a bit of a dead-end element to my role as well since I’m also five years in and my course here is not going where I expected it to after leadership changes.

      I’m in the early stages of job hunting, and this is kind of crazy to say since it can be draining, too, but– just really imagining yourself in the jobs you’re applying to and putting good effort into your applications is helping me A LOT. The basic act of visualizing a new future has been pretty powerful for me.

      As for how to handle work at work– I’ve been pushing back gently and professionally on certain aspects of my role and while it’s not moving the needle a lot, I have managed to get some minor things changed that make the day to day liveable in the meantime. I’m less concerned about making ‘enemies’ over process changes that benefit me now.

    4. CeleryStalk*

      Networking would be a good idea here. If you are being shut out of the current workgroups, then you should keep your lines of communication open with previous coworkers/supervisors. Because if the boss thinks you are stupid, you definately should shore up some positive recommendations.

    5. Rat Racer*

      You guys thank you so much for this support! This is just what I needed today. It’s very heartening to know that in this very wise community of successful people who care deeply about their careers, there are people who have been through the same thing. Hugs to you all…

    6. MissDissplaced*

      Oh dear! Yeah, unfortunately this happens sometimes and there’s little you can do to change it. And it does feel so unfair… but work is often unfair. It especially sucks if you liked the job prior to the newVP coming in. I’ve been through something similar in the last year.
      Generally, the best thing to do (if you know you want to leave) is to get your duckies in a row duckie. As you begin applying for other jobs, you will begin to feel like you are making progress.

    7. Courageous cat*

      I have invested myself in the job hunt, which helps – every time something like this happens, I think about an interview I have next week (or whatever) and smile. I have also learned to just repeat over and over to myself: “I’m leaving, what do I care?”

      I dunno, it’s tough, because I do care – I want people to like me, as much as I’d like to think I don’t. But I’m trying to fake it till I make it with that one. I guess the best thing is to realize it’s out of your control.

  71. MissGirl*

    About six weeks ago I was rejected for a job. This week they posted the position again and I’m wondering if it’s too soon to reach out to the recruiter to see if they’d be interested in talking to me.

    A little backstory. I applied to Position A and had a prescreen interview with the recruiter. He asked if I’d be interested in talking with the hiring manager, Jane, for Position B. I agreed as B matched my experience better than A.

    I had a strange interview with Jane. She wanted to know why I was interested in B when it was so different from A, which was a fair question but her tone seemed oddly antagonistic. I tried to answer the question but her tone threw me, and I ran on too long with my answers. She also seemed defensive at times, and felt like I kept saying the wrong thing. I was rejected 12 hours later. Definitely my worst interview.

    When I reached out to thank her and ask her any advice, she mentioned keeping my answers more succinct and on point. However, nothing about me not being qualified for the position itself.

    The company and the department is rapidly growing so this isn’t a case of hiring someone who didn’t work out. I’m not surprised to see the position again as they have more than one spot to fill. Is it worth reaching out to the recruiter again or do I walk away from this one?

    1. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t. They didn’t think you were a fit, for whatever reason and I don’t see how that would change in six weeks Also, Jane is either a red-flag bad to work for or took a dislike to you.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      The only reason to reach out to the recruiter at this point is if there is a possibility of the new position being under somebody other than Jane. Jane has already made up her mind about you. A different manager could have a different take on you. And the way you described Jane, the position may be the same one, as it sounds like Jane may be a bit of a pain to work for anyway.

    3. MissGirl*

      Thanks, I struggle with knowing when to push harder or when to walk. I’ll give up on this.

  72. Loey*

    I’m located in Midwestern City but have plans to move to West Coast City and recently received a random LinkedIn request from a recruiter in Southern City and I accepted. She sent me a message with nothing more than “Hi Loey, thanks for connecting. Let me know if there’s anything I can help you with.” I know she’s located far away from where I’m job searching, but can I still ask if she can provide any help with my job search? The request and message was so out of the blue, I didn’t know if going straight for asking her for job search help would be appropriate. I do have my LinkedIn settings to the “open for new opportunities” for recruiters option, which is why I think she reached out.

    1. irene adler*

      One email inquiring about jobs can’t hurt. Include a sentence about wanting to work in/around West Coast City.

      After all, she wrote “Let me know if there’s anything I can help you with”.

  73. Triple Anon*

    A few random questions.

    1) What is the etiquette and what are the norms around contacting professors from a long time ago? I’m thinking about reaching out to a former advisor who I worked closely with about 20 years ago. She was very supportive of my work. She wrote me a recommendation for grad school 10 years ago but expressed disappointment that I was going in a different direction. I think there’s a good chance she’ll remember me, but it seems awkward and I don’t know what to say. This time, I’m not asking for a letter of recommendation. I just want to see if she’s open to catching up and maybe giving me some advice about getting back into my original field. A little mentoring, in other words. I don’t want to ask for too much of her time. Just any kind of support from someone who knows me and appreciates what I’m doing.

    2) In a couple of jobs, I’ve worked with someone from IT who did creepy things like asking for passwords when it wasn’t necessary and asking what kinds of things I use for passwords outside of work, or asking me to log in to non-work applications (personal email, for example) and watching while I typed in my password. Stuff that’s too subtle to formally complain about but seemed really creepy and red flaggy in context. My strategy for this stuff is to change my password a lot and say no, giving a plausible excuse, when they ask me to log in to something I don’t use for work. And to try to document everything. Is it ever worth saying something to someone or does that tend to backfire? Has anyone else run into this?

    1. Triple Anon*

      PS – For #2, I should clarify that I’ve worked with all kinds of people in all kinds of roles. I don’t want to single out IT people. I’m bringing this up because since they have access to so much, it’s creepy when someone seems like they might be trying to misuse that privilege.

      1. The Other Thursday Next*

        Nobody should be asking for your passwords, where you use them, or watching you type them in. Particularly in a business context. I’m trying to understand if there is some non-nefarious reason people are doing that to you, but I’m coming up short.

        1. Triple Anon*

          Exactly. It’s nefarious. And it’s happened with two different co-workers at two different jobs. The first time, there were other obvious harassment issues too, so, taking the advice of another co-worker, I reported the person to HR. That ended up backfiring. They were nice, but they promoted him (gave him an additional, impressive role to add on to his existing job) and told me it didn’t sound like a big deal.

          So the second time around I didn’t do anything except avoid the guy to the extent that I could, but that was hard because we worked together a lot. He had a lot of friends in HR and was friends with the boss. I got out of there as fast as I could.

          So now I’m looking for a new job and worrying about this stuff happening again.

    2. OtterB*

      I sent an email a couple of years ago to a prof that I hadn’t had any contact with for 20 + years. This was a person on my dissertation committee. I started with “you may remember me [context]” and went on to say that I was thinking of him because I’d been reviewing an article for a journal and it reminded me that his [practical applications] course was the single most useful course I took in grad school. We traded a couple of emails (what I’d been doing, what he’d been doing) and then it tailed off, but I think I could easily have moved into “thinking of getting back into [subfield] and what does it look like there these days?”

      So I guess I’d say, you have nothing to lose by sending a touch-base email. It might not go anywhere, but I suspect it’s flattering to be remembered, and it’s not weird.

  74. H*

    Anyone have tips on how to focus at work when you’re feeling really depressed about stuff in your private life (but don’t want to share details) that’s not so serious as to need time off or accommodations but serious enough that it’s really taking over your headspace (and can lead to spontaneous urge to cry)?

    1. Fabulous*

      No tips, just realize you’re going to have an unproductive day or two and use the weekend to recoup. Or just take the day off anyway.

    2. Ali G*

      Take lots of walks, if you can. Getting out of the office for a few minutes at a time helped me at a similar time in my life.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Don’t try to do the big projects. Do simple things. The things that you’ve kept on your list forever because they’re the nice to get to’s but Maneating Project is consuming all your time.

      1. Tara S.*

        Lists. Small, reasonable lists that allow for time for walks and staring into space. I try and write down three concrete things I can try and get done each day, that way even if I’m not “productive” all day, I can show myself that I got something done. You’re a person, not a machine, and it’s so normal to accommodate that in your work.

    4. Susan Sto Helit*

      Music. Put together a playlist that speaks to you, and put headphones in whenever you need it. That might mean a whole load of happy songs, or just ‘Let it Go’ on repeat, but find the songs that will help to put you in the right frame of mind, or at least help to shift you out of a funk. It’s always worked for me.

    5. Temperance*

      I make a lot of lists and check things off. Even really stupid stuff, like “mail X letter”. It helps me keep focused.

  75. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    Anyone have advice re: work retreats? First full time job out of college, my official start date isn’t until later, but we’re going on a retreat soon to talk about goals for the year. I’m excited since it seems like a great place to work, but I’m also nervous that I might do something unprofessional or awkward.

    1. Tara S.*

      Best of luck! Try to listen as much as possible. Depending on your personality, it may feel like you ought to be contributing, but it may go better if you just see this as a learning opportunity and tyr to absorb as much info as you can.

      1. Anele*

        I really second what Tara S. says about listening–I have a bubbly and eager personality which normally serves me well, but at my first work retreat, I made the mistake of talking way too much and seriously irritating my boss. I look back on that time and cringe a lot.

        Definitely use this as an opportunity to see how the organization functions and what the relationship dynamics are like. You can get so much helpful information out of these things if you make learning your priority!

    2. Thlayli*

      1 Don’t get drunk!

      2 You’re new and inexperienced so listen more than you speak but do speak up when you have a good idea. If there are 20 people in a group, you should be talking 3 minutes or less in an hour. If there are 6 people in a group, you should be talking 10 minutes or less in an hour. But don’t sit there silent as a mouse either!

      3 be friendly on breaks and try to chat to people and get to know them. Have some personal topics of conversation ready but stick to things that are not too personal. What are your hobbies versus what’s your favourite sex position lol.

      4 If you’re not sure how to make conversation just ask people about plans for the weekend ( or the rest of the weekend) and use that as a jumping off point for conversation – oh you like sports team A, I prefer sports team B myself but A have achieved a lot this year. Oh you like marvel movies, i also enjoy marvel movies, who’s your favourite x-man? Oh bringing the kids to the zoo, the that sounds lovely, I hope the weather stays fine for it.

  76. ThatLibraryChick*

    When folks are off the clock or it’s their day off and they are not and will not get paid for this, why would you still come into work and do work stuff?

    2. Delta Delta*

      Power and control issues. Some people can’t deal with the idea that the world spins regardless of what they’re doing.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      It’s the difference between hourly work and salaried work. I often put in hours that I’m not being paid for, but I do that when I choose to because I believe that’s what it takes to finish some goal that I need to meet – and I’m salaried, so my annual value is based on meeting goals. Some people who are hourly but aspire to get a salaried job, which in some fields is advancement (others not) might try to do the job they wish they had for a while, to see if it gets them more respect/consideration come bonus time / promotions.

    4. Schnoodle*

      That’s illegal. Company has to pay you for time worked, even if it wasn’t authorized (they can write you up for it of course, but still gotta pay!).

      So my guess they are either pressured to do so, think it’ll make them look good, or…well that’s all I got.

      1. Thlayli*

        It’s not illegal for everyone. Exempt v non-exempt, and also there are other countries in the world.

    5. Short & Dumpy*

      Off the top of my head…

      -No air conditioning at home (or can’t afford to run it)
      -I’m in the midst of a divorce and sometimes the last thing I need is to be home alone with just my thoughts. It also soothes my conscience because I know my efficiency during the week isn’t what it should be right now.
      -In my last job, I could get more done in an hour on the weekend with no one around than I could in 8 hrs with a constant stream of interruptions and the trade-off was worth it to me to not blow deadlines.
      -Believed the advice their parents gave them about you have to donate time in order to get promotions.

    6. Jady*

      If you are salaried, overtime is an expected part of the job. Your salary covers that.

      If you’re hourly, you shouldn’t. That could be illegal, and if you’re required to work off the clock, look into reporting it.

    8. LCL*

      IT support at work is much more functional than their busted desk top and dial up modem at home. It only looks like they’re doing work; they are actually making holiday reservations and posting fan fic and Redditing.

    9. Daniela*

      Highly unlikely, unless it’s an absolute emergency, would take less than 15 minutes to complete AND not inconvenience me otherwise.

    10. Middle School Teacher*

      For me, it’s to get stuff done in a quiet place. I don’t like to take work home (it is part of teaching but I hate it) and I try really hard to keep my home and work life separate. But sometimes I have work to get done for Monday so I’ll go in on a Saturday. I don’t work well at home (tv! Netflix! A snack! The dog wants a belly rub!) so I’ll just suck it up, go in for a few hours, and Get It Done.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      They like the work and are doing it by choice (I’m in academia). It’s a salaried position and there is too much work to do in a 40 hour week (also academia). There’s something time critical that needs to get done before Monday. Their home life is unhappy or uncomfortable, and they’d actually prefer to be at work. They’re not actually working, but using work related resources (computer, A/C) for other things. They live for work, and can’t think of anything else to do. They’re struggling in their position and sneaking in to work off the clock to keep from getting fired. They think that it will help them get promoted or given a raise.

      1. Bibliovore*

        AcademiaNut has it right for me. Tenure track, too many distractions at home, don’t want to drag my resources home with me. Being at my office means Monday morning doesn’t mean high anxiety trying to catch up with deadline things that I didn’t get to on Friday. It is super quiet and the phone doesn’t ring.

  77. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    So I’m thinking of moving into the data science field. I’m just curious to anyone who works in that field – what have your experiences been? For example, what kind of projects have you worked on? (If that isn’t too identifying!)

    Pretty vague question, but I’m trying to get a handle on it. I already have some programming experience.

    1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      (And yeah, I just realized I basically asked the equivalent of “hey, I’m thinking about becoming a teacher, what’s it like to be one?” But I’m trying to figure out exactly what direction I want to go in!)

    2. lopsided*

      Not in data science, but in the path of analytics. It’s a super hot field right now, both for hiring and people wanting to get into it. Read r/datascience for lots and lots of experiences, pitfalls, insane expectations, cool projects, and working up to becoming a data scientist.

      I think the field is set to grow, but also change dramatically in the next few years. You need to be clear about the type of company you join and their expectations for someone in the role. Too many places jump into getting a name-brand “data scientist” when an analyst or sr analyst would probably do the job just as well. There is a huge span of knowledge that data science encompasses so it feels like every role and company has their own flavor, and there is just constant learning and change.

      This is my outside-edge view of the field.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        Thanks! I’ll definitely subscribe to that Reddit.

        Right now I’m looking to just getting my foot in the door, so I’m not trying to become a contributor to Fivethirtyeight (yet). I might end up aiming for the wider field of analytics (which I kind of do a bit of already in my current job).

      2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        Thanks! Definitely subscribing to that sub. And I figured that there’s a LOT of variation – I’m actually considering starting with the wider analytics field.

        And…I’ll definitely do my homework on the places I look.

        1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          …well that’s embarrassing. I thought the first reply got eaten!

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      I could reasonably call myself a data scientist. I started as a regular scientist, but realized that I mostly enjoy (and am good at) the part where I roll around in a giant pile of messy data and attempt to make sense of it.

      I work for a design shop that makes custom teapots. A typical order has about a million distinct teapots, which are selected in collaboration with the customer. We have a database of previous teapot designs, with a bunch of data regarding how easy they were to make and how well they performed for previous customers. And of course, there’s always demand for new / better / different teapots.

      There’s a production group that does the bulk of the SQL-wrangling to pick the best existing teapots from the database, and runs the semi-automated design tools that can make new teapots to spec. I work for the R&D group. We figure out better ways to predict teapot performance based on the data we have, and encode that knowledge in the design tools. Right now, we’re expanding our portfolio to include teacups – I’m working on the validation studies, compiling data so that we can give customers an idea of what to expect. I’m also working with a customer that really, really wants a coffee pot, but that’s definitely pushing the limit of what you can make with chocolate, so we’ve been iterating through a bunch of design and manufacturing tweaks to try to improve performance.

      We’re also the ones who do root cause analysis when something goes wrong, which isn’t unusual, because the teapot-making process is complex (and very fussy). For example, our production facility in Finland was recently taken out of commission by a heat wave in Singapore – no, I’m not making that up. When production goes down, that’s basically lighting money on fire, so the higher-ups want the data nerds called in to find the problem, RIGHT NOW.

      I do a little bit of modeling / machine learning, but the bulk of my work is wrangling messy data – hacking a pipeline out of tools that do parts of what I want, and contributing my own tools where I see a need.

    4. Data Science Trainee*

      Hi!

      I’m not a data scientist yet, still an analyst but that’s the path that I’m on. Right now I work with two data scientists, supporting them with my data visualization and analysis skills. Once I improve my data querying skills, and pick up a deeper understanding of some statistics I’ll be ready to take on a data science role.

      Most of our projects include answering questions and creating tools to monitor certain KPIs. Recent projects have included automating a dashboard for another team, figuring out whether a decision the department made resulted in increased sales, looking into how many customers cancel orders and why, and looking at the impact discounts make on sales and cancellation rates. There’s also daily, monthly, and quarterly reporting that we do as ongoing work.

    5. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Everyone: Thanks so much for answering! I’m almost certainly going to start with analyst positions – partly because it’s become one of my preferred job tasks in my current job (I’m not an analyst by title, but I do a fair amount of analytics), and see where that takes me. So basically, kind of what Data Science Trainee is talking about for the near future.

      @Cedrus Librani: That’s…basically how I’m getting interested in the field (although my path is a lot more unconventional). I pretty much realized that although I find my primary job rewarding, I kind of have a passion for numbers and graphs that borders on the pathological. And really – thanks for your REALLY detailed response. You mentioned you were a scientist before moving into data science – how often do you need to use your scientific training? And was your specialty teapot science?

      Also, I’m totally not surprised that a heat wave in Singapore can take out a facility in Finland.

      1. Data Science Trainee*

        Good Luck LGC! I’ve found that SQL and Tableau have been my most marketable analytics skills, and both are free and easy-ish to learn. Expert Excel skills are also important, but pretty much expected.

        1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          Good thing I’m a SQL and Excel wizard already, then! (Okay…not so much on the Excel. VBA still trips me up a little bit.) I bought one of those courses online where you can learn a bunch of programming things – not so much because I really needed to (you’re right, free tutorials are amazing), but because I figure if I spend money to learn something I’ll be more likely to go through with it.

      2. Cedrus Libani*

        Yeah, I used to be a teapot scientist. Probably the easiest way into data science is to be a subject matter expert who’s not scared of computers. Once word gets around that you can (and will) help your colleagues with data analysis, you become the most popular person in the lab. Eventually, I accepted my fate – and got a job where I was actually meant to be playing with data, not one where I was doing it “on the side” because it was more fun than my actual job.

        This background is useful, because ultimately the data we’re wrangling is being generated by complicated real-world processes. If you start treating these data like arbitrary features, you’re going to have problems. A fair amount of what we do comes down to physical intuition – something looks right, or it doesn’t.

        We do have a couple of people who come from a proper quantitative background. There are parts of our design process that get pretty deep in the mathematical weeds, so we need them. But for the most part, we’re teapot scientists who can handle basic programming. We don’t even do enterprise-grade code – we have a separate software engineering group that takes our prototype code, rewrites it in some C variant, and puts it into a nice GUI package for the customers. There is very little about my job that would fluster someone who’s passed the equivalent of AP Statistics and AP Computer Science; if you’ve taken an entry-level MOOC in machine learning, you’re more than covered.

        For example, I spent a fair portion of my Friday convincing two pieces of legacy code to play nicely together, by means of a shell script so gnarly that I had to write a separate script to programmatically generate the awk call involved. I’m not exactly revolutionizing the practice of data science over here. But the customer can now get the five-handled teapots they want, and my employer can take the customer’s money. And I’m the kind of weirdo who enjoys this sort of thing, so I’m earning a good, honest living while having fun.

  78. Guitar Hero*

    I applied for a job recently at a small college. There was no online application process–I just sent my information to hiring@college.edu, “addressed” to the name of the contact person that was listed in the job description. I never got an automated response or anything. That was Tuesday. Should I follow up to confirm receipt of my application? Or just sit around and wait to never hear anything ever again (as is the case with 90% of other applications… get it together, hiring managers)

    1. CareerSwitchMaybe?*

      Do you know anyone at small college that you could mention you applied so they can have HR flag it?

      I would reply back to the message and just ask for confirmation of receipt since you did not receive an automated message (this is very unusual). I’ve had it happen to me that the email went to spam and they did not contact me until very far into the process because of it!

    2. Just Venting*

      No, because you know they got your application. I understand how frustrating it is to launch applications into the void, though.

  79. almostsixweeksfirstdrapptatseven*

    How long did you wait to tell your employer you’re pregnant?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I have been pregnant in two different departments. With both bosses, I told them around 8-10 weeks. I was comfortable enough with both of them that I didn’t think they’d react badly (they were both very happy for me). I had been in my roles for a while so I knew my bosses fairly well. Also I was having a lot of nausea and fatigue and wanted to explain that.

      Though I will say with this second pregnancy, my current department is way more family-friendly, and it’s great. They are a lot more understanding about appointments and sick kids (since I now have a toddler), and they are setting up a lactation space for me and not expecting me to work while I pump – my director was even talking about putting a TV in there.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        In my company (not very family friendly TBH) women tell their bosses when it becomes obvious – like, they are visibly showing and it’s harder to not talk about it rather than talk about it. I expect senior level people or people who realize early that something big is going to be happening when they’re out (like the conference we spend a year planning) tell sooner.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          If I had gotten pregnant at the last university I worked at, I would have dreaded telling my bosses – because the culture was very sexist and often pressured women to stay at home after the baby came. They never did anything blatantly illegal but there was all sorts of subtle discrimination. So glad I’m not there anymore!

    2. Schnoodle*

      As hinted below, depends on your work culture. Discrimination against pregnant women is illegal – doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It happened to me.

      That said, don’t let a company, boss, coworkers or whoever make you pick them over your family. I had issues where they hated me pumping and I was constantly harassed about how “gross” it was I chose to feed my child this way.

      Hopefully yours is more friendly, and is FMLA eligible.

    3. almostsixweeksfirstdrapptatseven*

      My workplace is definitely good for FMLA and parental leave. There’s even a dedicated lactation room in my office too! My boss is particularly flexible as well, so I’m really in a great place right now for this to happen. I’m a little worried about the health coverage (I’ve already had to dish out almost $600 earlier this year for a miscarriage/ER visit and follow up appts… grumble grumble US health system…) but hopefully once I hit my deductible I’ll be fine. I told one of my coworkers earlier today since she’s leaving at the end of the month, but I probably won’t say anything to the rest of the team before then.

      Just didn’t know if there was a hard-and-fast rule for when you tell them so you can get everything set up for a maternity leave, doctor appointments, or what.

    4. ZuZus Petals*

      14 weeks.

      I know that seems really specific haha but with both my pregnancies, that was the point where I felt like I was starting to show a little, and it was easier to let them know than not. However, in both cases I also happened to be really new at the job (literally found out I was pregnant with my first two weeks after I started working at the company, and my second was 2 months after my start date) so I also wanted to wait as long as felt reasonable. Even though I was nervous, both of my bosses were super supportive and great. (I also didn’t intend to have the habit of getting pregnant when starting a new job but, life).

    5. The New Wanderer*

      First time I waited til I was about 5 months and just starting to show, but I was also pushing for a promotion and didn’t want anything to interfere with that decision. (I got the promotion.)

      Second time I waited til 12 weeks, which is when we told all non-family anyway.

    6. Live and Learn*

      I told my manager at 8 weeks because I needed to be out of office and have a more flexible/WFH schedule due to high risk medical problems, but it was shared with the other members of management at 13 weeks when I knew things were more likely to proceed to full/near full term without major incident being likely. Considering the other senior person in my 4 person department had also just told him she was expecting and due 5 days before me he handled it quite well.

    7. Ms Mad Scientist*

      I told our safety officer at six weeks, because I wanted an occupational health evaluation to ensure the way I was working with chemicals wasn’t teratogenic. She left a stack of information on my desk which 1)scared the crap out of me and 2) was visible to anyone who walked by. I wasn’t too happy about that.

    8. Anonon*

      I waited until 20 weeks to share the news with my whole department, but shared with my boss at 12 weeks. Shortly after i started in the department a colleague shared that his wife was pregnant, but he had to share the news of their miscarriage on a few weeks later. i wanted to be respectful of how that played out, and it also made me a little bit more self-conscience and worried since it was my first pregnancy. I shared with my boss at 12 weeks when i had a miscarriage scare that ended up being fine so that he understood why i had to see my doctor right away, and that he would understand the context if an issue came up again.

    9. Sarah*

      My first I told my manager at about six weeks because I was super sick and needed some grace. I didn’t announce to everyone until eight weeks, after my first doctor appointment. I wanted to wait longer but my manager was bursting to tell and probably would have had I not announced then.

      My second I told my manager (different manager) as I was micarrying, which was seven and a half weeks.

      My third (right now!) I told my direct manager this week (seven weeks) because she was leaving the company yesterday and I wanted her to know. I’ll tell the CEO, my interim manager, next week and probably my team and everyone in the next few weeks.

    10. Thlayli*

      I waited till I had approval for a training course I really wanted – I was 6 months. Baggy clothes.

      Definitely wait till after your 12 week scan. After that it depends on your workplace and relationship with your manager.

    11. No Name Yet*

      After my 18 week scan/prenatal testing came back as everything was okay. I was older (thus higher risk for some birth defects) and rather paranoid, so that was when we told everyone except family and close friends. I wasn’t worried about any work problems (and there weren’t any), so for me it was just about who I did/didn’t want to know if there were baby-related problems.

  80. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Job search is moving. Had a phone interview yesterday, they want an in person. Trying to schedule this, and the recruiter is dropping the ball. I don’t like this woman, but jeeze, please just do your job!

    Thinking ahead – eventually I will find a new job, and will be giving notice. I’ve never had to give notice at 6 months in before, so what the heck do I say? Sorry, but I hate every part of this industry and I didn’t realize it before accepting?

    1. Triplestep*

      I have been contemplating how to give notice at 8 months in, since hopefully that will be the case soon. There’s so much I could say about my manager and how – while skilled at her work – should not be managing people because she lacks self-awareness and maturity. There’s more I could say about all the ways my life here could have been made easier, but it wasn’t for no other reason than a need to keep me in my place.

      I’ve decided I will probably say its about my own mental health, and not disclose there’s another job. No one will push back on that, and my manager won’t feel like I am making her look bad, which surely would cause her to act out.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        I mean, I could also tell them that the team culture is incredibly dysfunctional, it’s getting worse, not better, I don’t appreciate being lied to while interviewing, etc. I just don’t think that’s going to be all that professional, and leaving after less than a year is tough enough.

        I’m being REALLY careful this time around, since I will need to stay for several years at least. Hopefully much longer. This opportunity looks interesting, only thing that worries me is the entire company is in the midst of massive changes. Will have to meet the actual team in order to make a decision.

        1. Ashk434*

          Both of you sound like you’re giving way too much detail. I would just be vague. If you’re going to lie by not mentioning the job, I would just say you need some time off for a bit – I would not mention mental health at all as that seems like oversharing.

          Teapot – this seems like information you’d provide during an exit interview – not while giving your notice. I wouldn’t actually provide information on why you’re leaving when you quit as that seems a bit antagonistic. If you do, I would say something along the lines of “I’ve realized I’m not a great fit for this position” and just leave it at that. I would make it seem like I’m the issue (even if that’s not true) because people are less likely to be offended and argumentative as opposed if you just give them a laundry list of all the reasons why their workplace sucks.

          If you have an anonymous exit survey, I would for sure mention the reasons you listed above there though.

          1. Traffic_Spiral*

            Yup. No “I’m sorry, it’s me – I’m a crazy person*” debasement. Just “I’ve realized that this really isn’t a good fit for me, and I think we will both be happier if I move on and you can find someone better suited for this position. Thank you for this wonderful opportunity and all your wise advice, I’ll fondly remember all I’ve learned, blahblahblah, laters, bitches.”

            * – not saying that needing a mental health break makes you “crazy” but I am saying that’s how the boss will take it here.

    2. Courageous cat*

      I’ll be giving notice around 6 or 7 months too and I’m dreading it. I’m either going to say I just can’t deal with the money (which is true) or I might be truthful and say no one here really likes me, and it’s not a tenable situation.

      Or most likely I’ll say I was recruited by someone, that I wasn’t searching, but the offer was twice what I’m being paid now and I can’t pass it up – whether it’s fully true or not. This tends to make the last two weeks the most bearable in any position.

      1. Triplestep*

        Funny, after I posted earlier I thought of the same explanation. “Someone I used to work with called me out of the blue”

  81. A. Ham*

    Tips & Tricks for being a presenter at a conference?
    I have attended this conference three times, and I have also been on the session planning committee, so at least I am very familiar with how these breakout sessions work, but this is the first time I have been asked to present as part of a panel- and I’ve bee asked to be involved with not one but TWO sessions! I’m flattered that my peers in the industry think highly of me, and I want to do a good job, but I’m super nervous! Each session also requires me to put together a power point presentation which i’m pretty sure I haven’t done since college, so we’ll see how that goes.
    The conference is in July, so I still have some time to prepare- any advice is most welcome!

    1. owlie*

      Script out what you’re going to say, and work on making eye contact and speaking naturally. It’s much less cognitive load while nervous than needing to think up the words/transitions AND make eye contact AND speak naturally all at the same time.

    2. CBE*

      Whatever you do, don’t just read the powerpoint in a dark room!
      Lights up. Eye contact. Minimal power point.
      When I attend conferences, they distribute the powerpoints ahead of time, so I choose sessions that don’t use it, or that will have the info presented other ways.
      Reading powerpoints in the dark is the worst.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Rehearse, out loud, multiple times. Writing it out is good but until you’ve actually said it out loud, you won’t really know the flow or timing. Be prepared for the first few rehearsals to sound ridiculously bad, like you barely know how to speak. My magic number was five run-throughs and then I felt confident that I knew what I would say and wouldn’t be reading off my slides or blanking out.

      Personally I love Powerpoint, but I definitely use it like cue cards – refer to key points without reading them verbatim, adding context where it’s needed, and let graphics/images speak for themselves.

      1. whistle*

        “Rehearse, out loud, multiple times.” Yes, yes, and yes.
        Make sure your presentation will not go over the time allotted. There is nothing to worse to the audience than watching a good presentation and then squirming while the presenter goes past the allotted time and hoping the moderator will put an end to it.
        On the other hand, it is very common to talk faster than normal while making the actual presentation, so pay attention that side of it as well.
        Finally, just remember that the audience is there to see you and wants you to do well. If you flub a few lines, that’s OK. Just keep going, and keep a professional composure.

    4. The Other Thursday Next*

      Buy a little USB controller so you can easily move from slide to slide. I find this particularly helpful since that means I don’t have to keep going to my laptop to advance a slide or having someone doing it for me.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      Hi A. Ham,

      Usually a month or a few weeks before the conference, there should be a call or something bringing together all the people on the panel, including the moderator, where you will outline the topics of discussion, what each panelist brings to the table, etc…You can toss out some ideas either beforehand or at that time, but honestly just the fact that you are taking it seriously and preparing means you will likely do great!

    6. AnotherGenXDevManager*

      Practice, practice, practice. I try to practice enough times that I a) know what I plan to say and can say it naturally – even if it’s not exactly what I planned to say and b) have a good sense of the timing of the talk, so that if I am at slide H 20 minutes in I know I need to slow down and speak more slowly, ask the audience more questions, etc.

      Also – less is more when it comes to slides. Don’t put too much text on them, favor illustrations over text, etc.

    7. Fenns Way*

      Off hand:

      Look up strategies for effective PowerPoint (I’m a 6×6 rule person, with no animation but lots of images)

      Read a bit about public speaking – clothes, hand movements etc matter. I never wear lipstick but i do for conferences (long wear, how does that come off?!?!)

      Podium or…? If you are short, or you tend to pace, ask for a lavielier mic

      Check the room out early

      Have your presentation in many forms – Dropbox, usb etc etc.

      Rehearse (as everyone else has said). Script the opening esp, as that’s were everyone struggles. Make the slides fit and flow with your style (not the other way around). When you find weird transitions during rehearsal, fix them (people are right – you want the PowerPoint to reduce your cognitive load, not increase it)!

      Take the time and space you need – going to a conference and speaking at a conference at two different events and (for me) are almost mutually exclusive. I have to retreat and breath and rest.

      Be comfortable in whatever you wear – slipping bra straps or a tie if you loathe that feeling will make it hard to be you!

      For me, putting together high quality and smooth presentations takes a ton of time. Don’t undersestimate how long! If you know someone who is good at PowerPoint and formatting, ask for their help

      If using Prezi, make sure you don’t make people motion sick

      Have fun!!

    8. AcademiaNut*

      I do a fair number of presentations, and the advice I have is

      Visual stuff: Make sure people can read all the text on the slides. From the back of the room. Even if they’re over 40. Stick to a black background with white text, or the reverse (no background graphics or weird colour combinations). No animations, ever, unless they’re specifically there to convey information. If you’re including graphics or plots, make sure they resolution is high enough and the colours strong enough, and any labels are readable from the back of the room.

      Content: don’t put too much on a slide, and use note form (not complete sentences). However, any important numbers or conclusions should be in text, not just spoken (this is important particularly for non-native speakers, and people with hearing issues). Make sure you can fit the presentation into the allotted time without rushing.

      Practice! If possible, it can help a lot to give a run-through to a colleauge who knows the subject and can ask questions or make comments.

      One useful thing is to make a few bonus slides which add details that you might need for questions, and which you can refer to if needed.

  82. Wendy*

    One of the other departments are holding interviews today. First person arrived 30 minutes early and is sitting in the waiting area by my desk waiting for the interviewers. I hate when they get early because I don’t have time to make polite small talk with them but it feels rude to basically ignore them. Plus, this one is sniffling every few minutes. GAAAAHH!!! Please don’t show up more than 10 minutes early for an interview!!!!!!

    1. Tara S.*

      Oh man, I remember flubbing this a lot when I was interning in college. One particularly bad time I showed up like 45 minutes early for the interview, apologizing profusely for being so early and telling them of course I didn’t expect anyone to be ready to see me, but the train had been more efficient than I thought it would and the DC summer weather was literally melting me, making me look like I was coming out of a pool. Now, of course, I would tell past me to find a damn Starbucks to wait in, but apparently I couldn’t think that far ahead in the past.

      I give you permission to offer them a magazine and then ignore them. They probably feel awkward about it to. (But yeah, try not to do this.)

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      As someone who interviews a lot of candidates I would much rather someone be 5-10 min late than 30+ minutes early…

    3. Ashk434*

      Sorry if it’s an inconvenience for you but who cares? I live in the NYC area and rely on public transportation. Sometimes it’s deciding between arriving 20-30 minutes early or 10-15 min late due to bus schedules and/or train delays. If there aren’t any coffee shops or public parks in the area, then I’ll be arriving early.

  83. Teapot Wrangler*

    Has anyone here quit a job without having another position lined up? Are there things that you wish you had known or prepared for in advance? Things you regret? Seeking any and all words of wisdom.

    (For what it’s worth, staying is not an option due to an ongoing health concern.)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Mm… depends what you mean by “quit a job.” I’ve given notice before having another job lined up. But I haven’t just thrown my smock on the floor and walked out of the building without having another job lined up.

      If your boss is a reasonable person (not always a safe assumption) and likes you, giving notice far in advance can actually work to your benefit, because your boss can actually help you find a job (and you can help find your replacment). I’ve done that a number of times.

      1. Teapot Wrangler*

        Should have clarified! I’m planning on giving notice (and not setting things on fire on my way out), and doing what I can to preserve relationships with my supervisors and coworkers. I’m hopeful that my boss will be supportive, but like you said, never a safe assumption.

        1. Neosmom*

          Yes, I have. They were shocked at my leaving after only 10 weeks – and nothing else lined up. They usually walk resigning employees out the door immediately. I was kept on for my full two weeks notice period and found all kinds of things around the office that had been piling up. So I asked if I could take those on.

          Be professional and work diligently during this time. You can easily remind yourself that you are “outta here” in X days. I was confident that I had valuable work skills and I had a safety net of funds. I secured getting a temp-to-perm “survival job” that paid less than my market value. But I bided my time and eventually wound up right where I needed to be.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I am dreaming of doing this – I’m just really over my current job, and I’ve been job searching so I can’t help thinking something will come along sooner or later, so why torture myself by continuing to come in to a place that makes me miserable? But on the whole, I’m glad I haven’t done it. My job search has taken longer than I thought and I would have been really out of luck by now if I’d quit when I first started thinking about it.

      It pays to be logical – I did this once when I was first starting out because I knew I wanted to relocate, I was entry level, and I was willing to take anything. I was willing to work in a coffee shop or a bar if I needed to. Now that I’m midlevel there’s a much bigger opportunity cost to leaving my current job, and I’m much more picky about what I’m looking for. I don’t see that many job postings that look good in the average month, so I know it’s not going to be a quick process this time.

    3. Ali G*

      I left a job back in September (but I had 6 months severance, so money wasn’t an issue). I purposely didn’t try to have anything lined up because I was messed up bad by my previous boss/employer and just needed a break. I’m still looking for full time work (i’m working part time now). One thing I wish I did better was keep in touch with my network during my time off. Part of the problem is that I had no idea what I wanted to do next so I felt disingenuous about “networking” at the time. It all also felt so raw and exhausting so I avoided it. I probably should have done more. What I don’t regret is taking that time for myself and my husband, and also taking the time to really explore my options, get some additional training to set me up for a career change, and being super picky about where I apply. It’s been hard, but we are doing OK and I think I’ll have a perm position soon.

    4. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I did this with my first job out of college. Of course, I had a decent safety net since I was still living with my parents at the time. I wish I had told more people in my network (friends, my parents’ friends, my friends’ parents, my former professors, etc.) that I was job searching. I was so embarrassed and I felt like such a failure that I kept my search to myself, so it took way longer to find my next job than it should have.

    5. Bea*

      Only once, I was young and it was fourteen months of searching before I found anything given my limited experience and the edge of the economy crumbling.

      However my last job search was less than a month and so it wasn’t worth quitting before having it lined up, it was an option I was toying with though since I was working on my savings reserve to make it happen.

      It can take so long to find a job. My partner had two months of that, he didn’t quit but he was in a temporary gig and it ran it’s course. Then he was full time job searching. The difference was he did get a couple offers and he tried one out for a couple of days, it was horrid. I was able to help him out and we floated until he found a good solid fit in the end. I’m so relieved we had the ability to get him somewhere he feels good at, for once after all these years of bad jobs strung together just to make sure bills are paid. Sigh. However again, we had the blessing of two incomes and mine is enough for a few months at a time at least.

    6. Live and Learn*

      I did this. And not in the classy handing in notice and then leaving without a new job lined up way. I walked into my toxic boss’s office at the end of the day, handed her my office keys, told her I couldn’t do this anymore and walked out after 4 years with the company during our busiest season. She had been screaming at employees daily, told me I didn’t value my job enough because I slept at night instead of working, threatened to hit a vendor and she’d cycled through two complete sets of staff and support vendors in that same time period. So quitting with no notice and no new job lined up was a mental health necessity for me.
      Here’s what I learned:
      – Figure out who your reference(s) will be
      – Who in your network can help you identify opportunities for your next job
      – What will you do about medical coverage? The marketplace can be a great option but it can also be expensive so make sure you have medication refills and necessary appointments take care of before you lose coverage.
      – Is your resume in great shape so you can hit the ground running?
      – Finding a new job takes way longer than you think it will in my experience (10 months for me) so what will you do for money in that time? Savings? Part time work? Will you have to take the first job offered to you even if it’s not a great fit because you need money/benefits?
      – What’s your plan for how you tackle your time off and job search? Do you know what you want/need?
      – Are you in the right physical/mental place to commit to finding a new job that’s right for you? If not, what would it take to get there? What would that new job look like?

  84. Project Manager*

    I was thinking about the coworker with the sudden fake British accent this morning, and I have another petty idea. Every time she uses a word that means one thing in US English and another in UK English, behave as if she meant the UK one. Like if she says something about pants, react as if she’s talking about underwear*. If she says she likes chips, respond as if she were talking about thick cut French fries. If she says her car is a sedan, look really confused and insist she means saloon. If your work involves math, there is excellent potential for confusion here (e.g., Brits, or at least whoever writes the IB maths test, call derivatives “gradients”. I never figured out what they call a gradient (del operator)). Et cetera.

    In other news, I’ll have to change my username because I start a new role next week which is not PM but is high visibility and puts me in a really good position for a promotion. Yay!

    *Here is a friend of a friend story that I’m choosing to believe is true:
    US Girlfriend: (emerges from bedroom dressed for going out in a cute top and short skirt) I didn’t feel like wearing pants. Think this is okay?
    UK Boyfriend: (shocked) What??? Get back in there and put some pants on!
    US Girlfriend: Geez, okay. (goes in bedroom and comes back out in jeans)
    UK Boyfriend: Why’d you change?

    2. only acting normal*

      We call math maths, and derivatives derivatives (also the gradient, but that only really applies to the local point, and gradient can also apply in more than one dimension), and the del operator is for divergence, gradient or curl.

      Other than that… soooo much opportunity for mischief:
      Pants (neutral) = knickers (for women) and underpants (for men).
      A US vest is a UK waistcoat.
      A UK vest is a US undershirt.
      US cars have a hood and a trunk, UK have a bonnet and boot (respectively).
      US eraser = UK rubber, US rubber = UK condom. *snigger*
      US acetaminophen = UK paracetamol
      US elevator = UK lift
      US 1st floor, 2nd floor etc = UK ground floor, 1st floor etc (lots of potential there).

      1. WellRed*

        Don’t forget “knock you up” for, I believe, stopping by for a visit(US here).

        1. Thlayli*

          OMG that’s brilliant!

          OP of that letter if you are reading this – Ask her if you can knock her up at the weekend. Please do this and report back!

          (For those who may not know, knocking someone up is British slang for impregnating someone).

          1. The Ginger Ginger*

            That’s the same for American slang. If you get knocked up or someone knocks you up, pregnancy is involved. Hence the movie “Knocked Up”

            1. Thlayli*

              Oh, so it’s the same. I thought WellRed said it meant stopping by for a visit in the US.

              I’m actually disappointed!

              1. WellRed*

                I thought it meant stopping by for a visit in the UK. In the US it definitely means getting pregnant.

  85. louise*

    A couple of weeks ago <a href="https://www.askamanager.org/2018/05/open-thread-may-18-19-2018.html#comment-1991584https://www.askamanager.org/2018/05/open-thread-may-18-19-2018.html#comment-1991584"I posted about my two bosses arguing over me. The situation has escalated. Supervisor B has decided to just give all of the projects to a person who is essentially my peer, but has been here longer than me, and let him decide what I should work on. This seems extremely unbalanced to me, but is this normal? I have this paranoia that my manager is just trying to get rid of me, or that my peer will give me awful projects, but he actually seems decent enough and hopefully won’t do that. But now I have three people fighting over my time. This place is SO disorganized and I feel like it’s just getting worse.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Can you put up a white board and list projects you are working on and their deadlines? That way when they want one more thing you can ask them where in the list they would like it? Basically make it transparent that they are acting like horrible and are putting you in the middle of it all.

  86. Just Venting*

    I got rejected from a job yesterday. I was told that while the hiring committee loved me, the management committee determined that the organization cannot afford to bring on a teapot specialist right now.

    I get that this happens, but I’m annoyed (why didn’t the organization, maybe, you know, determine its hiring needs BEFORE interviewing me?) and feeling a little discouraged because I’m not sure if I will find a job before my current position ends at the end of August.

    1. Workerbee*

      Ugh, that sucks. I’m sorry they wasted your time. Here’s to finding a great job soon at a place that has its act together!

  87. Downwardly Mobile*

    I just want to thank everyone who answered my post last week about landing an interview for a job I knew would be a step down (or more) from my current level of responsibility. (I am actively pursuing them as a “quality of life” move, and got an interview for one that might be TOO much of a step down.) I didn’t respond, but I did go in with an open mind as suggested, prepared to ask why they are interested in someone with my level of experience.

    This is a State job, and therefore they need to ask all candidates the same questions, and follow ups. My time for questions came after. I took that opportunity to explain why I was interested in the role even though I knew it was not “some big step up”, and went on to ask why – after seeing my resume – did they want to talk with me, when they knew the role did not demand someone with my years in the industry. The hiring manager said she liked my cover letter! (Thank you Alison and AAM!) in which I do detail the reasons why the job appeals to me. But salary was not discussed, nor anything about it being non-exempt. My first impression of the hiring manager is that I’d really like working for her, but who knows – I thought that about my current boss, and she’s the main reason I want to move on.

    Should they invite me back for a second interview, I am now torn between seeing this thing all the way through on their terms (i.e. no salary conversation until they decide it’s time) or asking about salary prior to scheduling. I have scoured the State’s web pages with no luck finding salary ranges.

    If this were a private company, I would wait it out, see if the salary is going to be as low as I fear, and then try to finagle a new job description and salary if offered the job. I would use their mention of adding two more people to the team to try to get them to re-jigger responsibilities to come up with a role that would allow me to add the most value for them. But State Government does not work that way. I’m sure it would be take it or leave it.

    The issue is that I am a candidate at different stages for three other jobs right now (all in my field, none the step-down I was looking for, but worth pursuing nonetheless. It’s weird. My field is blowing up right now, and it’s always been pretty hard to find openings.) I need to be wise about my time out of the office, or I’ll definitely raise suspicions, or just get the side eye. I can’t use up my excuses to be out of the office on a job that would offer me 50% less than I’m making now. On the other hand, they might surprise me and have a range I could live with, so I don’t want to risk alienating them by asking about salary too soon.

    Anyway, thanks again to those who responded. I did read and heed!

    Shoutout to “Another Alison”: Regarding your comment last week, I can think of many reasons why you’re getting candidates who appear over-qualified if you want to discuss – respond here or start another thread today :-)

    1. H.C.*

      If it’s a government position, the pay scale should be pretty accessible. You should check and ask around either with the agency you’re interviewing with, or the human resources bureau/department.

      Also, a government offer isn’t always take it or leave it. I negotiated salary & a few other quality-of-life conditions for mine; the process may take a little longer than expected (it did push my start date back by almost two months, thankfully I haven’t given notice yet) – but not impossible to do.

    2. Tara S.*

      You can check state salaries! They are public information, and you should be able to look up salaries of people with the same/similar job titles.

      Also, you can negotiate!! I made this mistake when I applied for a state job. Usually what they are limited by is that there is a pay-band for the position. So like, Admin II’ s can only make between $30,000-$45,000. But you can ask to be higher up in that pay-band, if they don’t offer you the higher-end!

    3. College Career Counselor*

      If it’s a state job (at least in the US), the salary should be public. Now, assuming they make you an offer, they may or may not bring you in at what the previous person was making, but at least you’ll have an idea of the general area.

    4. Downwardly Mobile*

      Thanks all.

      Well, we found it. It was really hard to find for two seasoned internet sleuths (my husband and me) but we eventually found the pay range. And it is not good news. (Would be a 30-50% pay cut). Not sure what I will do at this point, but I wanted to thank you all for weighing in.

  88. Toodly Loo*

    I want to attend a work related training and am considering asking my supervisor for permission at our weekly check in on Monday. Have been in this position for almost three years and the training is highly relevant. My supervisor has recently suggested I attend some training if I want (not anything specific). Two caveats:
    -I am casually applying to other jobs but am extremely unlikely to leave here before this particular training (slow moving industry)
    -At a previous job I attended a few trainings and left shortly thereafter due to a bad fit and better opportunity coming available in the slow moving industry. That organization has since added new policies that anyone who leaves within a year of attending a training needs to reimburse the company (had I known I could *not* attend, I would not have; I did not receive the offer for my current job until after I had arrived at the site of the last training). So I know it’s not kosher to get an org to pay for training and immediately cut bait. But I don’t know if I would even get an interview for the other jobs I’m applying to these days, anyway.

    Minor third caveat, I guess: I suspect, based on rumors and observations, that my supervisor will take a higher position in our org soon (which tells me they are not loyalty obsessed).

    Should I ask to take the training? Its cost is less than my biweekly paycheck, even after taxes.

    1. ZuZus Petals*

      Ask for the training! Worst case scenario is you take the training and then leave the company afterward, best case is that it helps you in your current job and your job search. Does your current company have any policies in place about paying back training costs if you leave within a certain time frame? If so, I would just set aside money for the cost of the training if you’re able so that you mentally know it won’t be an issue.

      Just so you know my experience – I actually just switched jobs in the midst of a training program, and had to repay my company about 1k for the cost. I knew it was a risk when I signed up for the course, but it’s had a lot of value for me, and it will hopefully be worth it in the long-run.

  89. MLiz*

    I have an interview question.

    I had an interview last week and it was a good interview (focused on the position, skills, etc.) but in retrospect there was something about the soft skills portion of it that has me wondering whether I shouldn’t have responded differently. Since this is a very team-oriented position (theoretically we all do our own thing but we can’t work without each other either), that was a large focus of the interview, of course, and I think they got the impression that I’m too focused on harmony. So they asked whether I’m also able to push and potentially discipline if I have to (this is not yet a leadership position, but progression would go in that direction).

    Since I had nothing from my old job that came to mind I used something from the time I did my PhD, which worked well enough I guess.

    But in retrospect I wonder if the following situation would have been better, or whether that would have derailed things too much (taken away the focus from my skills). Basically I worked in an office with a lot of significantly younger people (all of them at least 5 years junior to me) and there was a situation where I couldn’t believe it was happening, it shocked me so much: basically my colleagues called equipment retarded and handicapped and spastic and in our native language (this is the proper translation and those words are very derogative). And I put a lid on that one, to which I got the response “we’re not talking about people!” when in fact they might have and the wording would have been no different.

    I wonder, is this a good example or is this too drastic and would derail the interview?

    1. Karo*

      It’s hard to say without knowing what the PhD example was, but I think your latter example would’ve been a better answer for “tell me about a time when you had conflict with someone,” or something like that. It’s not necessarily discipline-focused.

      That said, I don’t think it would’ve detracted from your skills. They were saying inappropriate things, you corrected them.

  90. MsSolo*

    We’re working on GDPR in my office at the moment, and we’ve got an issue with funders where it’s possible for a client to consent to us holding data but not passing it on, or passing it on to one funder but not another, or passing on some data but not special category data… If you’re dealing with GDPR, you probably get the headache. So our current solution means that for any given client there are at least three different sets of consent questions, which have the possibility to contradict.

    I emailed our GDPR lead about this and copied in one of the database bods he’d mentioned in a comment. The database bod has sent The. Most. Wonderful. passive-aggressive, bullet-pointed, multiple-exclamation-marks, using-the-fact-English-is-his-second-language-to-cover-some-serious-snark reply, copying in a whole bunch of top level people (cue hurried rereading of my original email!). It is a thing of beauty. And it is a friday afternoon, so most of the people on the receiving end are going to pick it up on monday, and it is now entirely out of my hands, so colleague and I are just admiring how legendary this email is.

  91. Lentils*

    Hey everybody! I have a couple of questions on behalf of my wife, who was just fired unexpectedly from an admin/receptionist job that she’d only had for about two months.

    1) Before getting the admin job, she’d had a part-time retail job that had slowly been freezing her out of hours (giving her maybe 5-10 hours a week and multiple weeks in a row with nothing), so she quit that job once she got the admin job. The admin job is the only job she’s had for the last two months. We are now wondering: should she put the admin job on her resume, and if not, how should she explain the two-month employment gap on her resume?

    2) She’s a bit freaked out at the moment because she had no idea anything was wrong at the admin job, and according to her, there was zero negative feedback prior to being fired yesterday afternoon. I went over everything with her and from what I can tell, anything that could have been an issue – arriving between 8-8:30 when that range was apparently the negotiated start time; one curious question about whether Coworker A leaving early was a regular occurrence which was addressed to Coworker B (B has said much harsher things about A’s leaving early in my wife’s earshot); nervous tics like playing with her hair occasionally or doodling, not in view of customers or when she had other work to do – was never mentioned as an issue. Coworker B, who was a higher-up but not technically one of her managers, was the one who fired her and refused to give any answer to her questions other than “it’s not working out” and no feedback regarding performance issues. As far as she knows, she performed all tasks well and got along perfectly fine with everyone there. My wife is basically wondering how to move on and what to take from this that’s positive and that she can learn from at future jobs, given that she wasn’t told what was wrong. Also, we’re both pretty young (mid-20s) and have never had this happen to either of us, so she could use some reassurance from people who’ve been in the workforce for longer, lol.

    Sorry for tl;dr, and let me know if you want more details.

    1. Guilty of that*

      Two months isn’t a gap to worry about. Leave this shitshow off her resume because then you’ll get questions about that situation and why it ended the way it did.

      She most likely was in a crappy office with bad management. I’ve seen it many times. It was some personal personality conflict.

      My issues with admins I’ve let go are absences, tardiness or inability to learn tasks. If she’s answering a phone and it’s within 2 rings and she’s not dropping the calls or flustered trying to transfer or assist the clients, she isn’t struggling most likely.

      Some execs and others in between are assholes with unreasonable expectations. She should try a temp agency to dip her feet into more offices. It’s hard to break into administrative work sometimes when you come from retail.

      1. Lentils*

        Thank you! Yeah, the conclusion we came to was that it might have just been a weirdly/badly managed office (I had some Thoughts based on a couple of her stories, but I didn’t want to complain since she’d been looking for full-time employment for over a year). I’ll pass on the tip about temp agencies!

    2. Aphrodite*

      I agree; it was probably more them than her. However, she might use what she has learned (arrive promptly, do not question others’ habits or work schedules) to improve on her next job. But it sounds like she wants to do good so I will suggest that perhaps she work through temp agencies for a while. I hated working with them while others loved it so it’s hard to say how she will fee. But even when I hated it I did learn a lot about different offices, seeing how they operated and what they expected. And I knew I wouldn’t be there for long if it was insufferable.

      She might want to spend some time determining her interests and working style. Does she like art, music, education, healthcare? Does she prefer 9-5 or varied hours, working closely with teams or pretty independently? Is she an outgoing personality or more of an introvert? Does she like or hate public contact? If she can narrow down what works and doesn’t work for her then I think she can focus on specific industries while she is either working temp jobs or even obtaining more skills.

      1. Lentils*

        I do know she has an issue with being on time, so I definitely pointed that out as something she could be extra careful of in the future. Thanks for the tip about temping! That’s advice we’ve been hearing a lot and she hasn’t really looked into it but I think it’s time to do that, lol.

        She has a master’s degree in library sciences, but she’s been applying to library jobs all over the region for over a year and getting barely anything which is why she ended up at the retail and admin places. She’s very meticulous and organized and she’s much better suited to office work than retail, so hopefully she can find something in the former pretty quickly.

    3. WellRed*

      I agree, it’s probably the workplace has a problem, not your wife. I will say, I wonder if it really *wasn’t* OK for her to arrive between 8 and 8:30 and they wanted her there by 8 (or at the same exact time every day). That’s on them to tell her, though. Also, it’s always best to refrain from inquiring about another coworker’s schedule if there’s no need to know. It just isn’t a good look.

      1. Lentils*

        Yes, I wondered about that too…and it seems odd to me given that all of my past jobs expect one required me to physically clock in via keypad or phone. But apparently this place was flexible about that. In any case, I did point out that she might try being extra careful about arriving on time tending to early in the future. And yes, she says she only asked after having heard coworker B talking to coworker C about A’s leaving weirdly early most days out of the week, but I passed this tip on to her as well. She meant it more out of curiosity about office norms, but I can see how it might come off as unprofessional or insubordinate. Anyway, thank you for your advice!

    4. ronda*

      if she wants an admin job, she might want to keep this on the resume even tho it is only 2 months.

      but also only if she can talk about some stuff that she learned / did while there that would sound good.

      I think that she could just tell prospective employers that they let her go with no explanation of why or prior feedback on her work, so she is not sure why. She asked for feedback and would of course be willing to work on any issues, but they were unwilling to give any.

  92. Hannah*

    Quite a while ago now, a coworker whom I didn’t know all that well made a number of extremely racist comments to me. I have no idea why she said these things–they were not about me or specifically about anyone in my workplace, but I was still pretty offended by them and told her that her comments were racist. She didn’t seem to care much about what I thought, though, and I’ve pretty much kept my distance from her since.

    No one else knows about these comments, and in fact, this woman has been publicly recognized for her “professionalism” and good work. I bristle every time, because my workplace is very much NOT a place where racism is acceptable. Again, I am not sure why she felt comfortable showing her racism to me (because I also am white?) but it seems like it was a one-time thing that no one else has experienced.

    People praise her all the time, saying how nice she is, etc. etc. I really want to set them straight about this, because if they knew what she said they would for sure change her opinion. On one hand, that seems like gossip, because it really did not have anything to do with anyone in the workplace, but on the other hand, I don’t want to protect a racist. What would you do?

    1. LCL*

      I think you did all that can be expected, which is calling her on it in the moment it happened. If she is as you say, and I believe you, she will out herself soon enough. You’re not protecting her, you just don’t have the ability to act on what she said. If she ever gets in or is considered for a supervisory capacity, that is the time to mention something to management. And of course if anyone asks you about her attitudes, you can tell them what she said to you.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      This probably isn’t helpful, but it struck me that your situation is the opposite of one that happens pretty frequently – people badmouthing a colleague that you’ve had only great experiences with. The advice, to cut down on the badmouthing, is usually to say something like “Gee, that hasn’t been my experience with So-and-so.”

      As a phrase, though, you could certainly use it when people are praising the not so secretly racist coworker.

      And yes, IME, racists are most comfortable saying stuff like that to others they think are part of their ‘group’ (as in, same color/ethnicity and at least some of the same perceived values). I lost an otherwise close friend when she got too comfortable about saying racist stuff and I called her on it. But even casual, I-just-met-you-today people have made comments to me where I’m like, why would this person just assume I share this opinion!?

    3. Brownie*

      The options are either she is still a racist and is now more skilled in hiding it or else she’s recognized her racism and is working on not being racist any more. Unless you’ve witnessed racism far more recently (like in the last few months) I’d leave it alone, mainly because reporting it to other coworkers/company members without recent behavior to back you up has the huge potential of backfiring and making you look very bad in the workplace. Either she’ll lie about not being a racist and will have everyone labeling you as the liar because her reputation is so good or else you’ll be labeled as cruel for not accepting that people can change and for dredging up her painful and embarrassing past. It’s a lose-lose without recent proof because it won’t affect her, but will negatively affect you.

      If you have witnessed it recently going to your supervisor or HR with “Coworker said some really racist things in a conversation with me recently and I don’t know to handle it” is a very good idea. And keep calling it out in the moment, that’s by far the best way to handle it. Definitely do not do what my inner voice is yelling to do, which would be to load up on anti-racism pamphlets and brochures so you could leave a new one on her desk randomly every week. While (VERY) satisfying, that kind of thing could very easily lead to accusations of harassment if they found out it was you doing it.

    4. Thlayli*

      I think the time to do something about it has passed. As you say, at this stage it would just be gossip.

      I would say nothing unless and until she makes more racist statements, or if someone directly asks your opinion of her as a person.

      1. Hannah*

        Yes, OK. I will stop worrying about it.

        It’s less like I feel a burning need to tell everyone, and more like I feel guilty for letting all the “Jane is so wonderful!” comments go by without putting it out there. It almost feels to me like hearing someone say something racist, and not saying anything. (And also, people may be wondering, why does Hannah always grimace when we mention Jane instead of joining in the Jane Love? Because I absolutely cannot bring myself to call her a wonderful person. The comments were REALLY bad.)

        So thanks for all the input. I feel more like I’m doing the correct thing now. Maybe I should have brought it to her boss at the time, but I didn’t, and now you are all right, that it would seem weird for me to spread this rumor now, even if it is true.

  93. spegasi*

    A friend of mine just offered to pass along an application and a strong recommendation for a position at her company. It would mean a better pay, better hours and more stability but it would move me to another career path. I studied humanities (think history, art and culture) and have a job related to it but due to politics I’ve barely done anything in the year I’ve been here. The new position would mean going into logistics which is something I enjoy but not what I love. While I wouldn’t be guaranteed the job there I don’t want to apply only for it to be a bad career move or worse for me to decide that I’m content enough where I am and end up hurting my friendship with one of my oldest friend. What do I do?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I think you need to find out more information, and probably the best way to do that is to apply. You are not making a commitment just by applying. But do make sure your friend knows that you are still uncertain – that you have not committed – so that she knows what she’s getting into if she recommends you.

  94. KMB213*

    I don’t really need advice, I just need to vent.

    I am complete at BEC stage with everyone I work with (a very small office, so only a few people). Don’t get me wrong, I have plenty of legitimate reasons to not like this job and to be annoyed and frustrated with my boss and coworkers (use of homophobic and racist slurs, belittling of my work and ideas, you get the idea), but SO MANY THINGS that shouldn’t annoy me or should only mildly annoy me are getting to me now.

    Yesterday, I was annoyed because my boss commented AGAIN on what I was eating. Sure, it’s annoying, partially because he does it all of the time, and partially because he’s commented on my weight before (not that it matters, but, while I’m not super slim, I’m smaller than the average American woman), but my level of annoyance with it was through the roof. The same goes for my level of annoyance when a new coworker made a weird comment about how everyone must love having a woman’s voice around the office and how she adds a feminine touch; she and I are the only women here, I’ve worked here for four years, and I’m very stereotypically feminine; or when another coworker was walking around the office without shoes, which isn’t a big deal at all, and is just strange more than anything.

    None of these things are a big deal and all of them should, at worst, mildly annoy me (and I recognize that some shouldn’t annoy me at all), and, with so many legitimate grievances in this job, I should just ignore them, but, god, am I annoyed this week. (And, really, it’s not limited to this week – this has been worsening for months now.)

    Again, I don’t really need advice. I save my capital for things that are work-related or things that I really feel I must speak up on. (I didn’t speak up the first time I heard my boss use the homophobic slur, but said something the second time – maybe it’s not directly work-related, but I felt it was important enough to say something.) And, I’m actively looking for new work, using a lot of Alison’s guides and posts as references, so I’ve got that covered. But, thanks for reading my complaints, and, if everyone could send positive vibes in relation to my job search my way, that would be great!

    2. Traffic_Spiral*

      ” a new coworker made a weird comment about how everyone must love having a woman’s voice around the office and how she adds a feminine touch.”

      Ok, that’s creepy though. Goes into that whole “women exist to be decorative” thing.

  95. lopsided*

    I’m sitting here during my last week at my current job, and I have some observations:

    1. Team dynamics look a lot different when you’re leaving than when you’re pushing through. I must have some sort of defense mechanism where I make excuses on behalf of others in my head so that I can focus on doing good work instead of fretting about all the weird way people act.

    2. No one has planned anything for me, and I’m of the mind that I don’t want anything to happen if I have to bring it up myself. Wondering if anyone will care, or if they’ve convinced themselves that I did them a disservice by putting in my two weeks.

    3. I see the fear in their eyes, and am feeling a little alone. It would never have been a good time to leave, but from my perspective they’ve known I was unhappy for close to a year and still don’t have a replacement ready. I’m doing what I need to do so they can try and pick up as much as they can in my silent corner, and people try not to talk to me. I know that I’ve done good work and produced far beyond my job description, and yet this is how it ends.

    1. A Challenge Before The Whole Human Race*

      I’m taking early retirement at the end of this month and if nothing else, I can assure you that you are not hallucinating.

      I put in for early retirement about a year ago, and was almost immediately sidelined. Which didn’t really bother me, I was essentially done with the place; plus I could understand mgmt’s POV: they’re not going to give me any kind of awesome work assignment, only to have me complete it a few weeks before I leave forever.

      I was given the option of some kind of “retirement recognition event” with a $200 budget. I said ”no thanks”: I’ve worked with people all over the world, and the company wasn’t going to pay to transport the guests I’d really want to be there.

      It could be worse: many years ago I worked with a fellow who was retiring with 40 years at the company. His boss didn’t like him, though. I’ll never know the full story, but these two had an exchange of words that ended with the retiring fellow being marched out of the building by security. I got elected to box up his office stuff and have it shipped to him. I knew both of these people, and all I can figure is that the manager was such a petty asshole that he couldn’t simply let this fellow enjoy his last few days at a job he’d held for 4 decades.

  96. Forkeater*

    I’m reading AAM and eating a salad at work, with a work provided compostible fork. Heard a snap, end of one of the fork tines snapped off. I’m 90% sure I didn’t swallow it and 90% sure it wouldn’t cause issues if I did, but I have a fair amount of health anxiety and this just about pushed me over the edge.

    1. Cruciatus*

      I have done the same. I actually have eaten the tine that broke off. All was well! I never noticed when it, ahem, left, but I never had any sort of adverse reaction.

    3. Nonfood Eater*

      My personal pet peeve is accidentally eating egg shells. I got a big one in an egg sandwich once. I know it’s not harmful but the mouth feel and sound (and thought of it) make me shudder…

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Your work provides compostable forks? That’s cool.
      If you’re nervous about this, get some cheap metal cutlery and keep it in your cube. You can give it a quick wash after you’ve finished lunch.

  97. ThePandaQueen*

    I guess this is a vent with a happy ending:

    It’s been 5 months now since I graduated University and I was still working for a student’s salary with a toxic co-worker. I found out today, that the job that I heard about in the department adjacent this one is officially mine. I start at the end of June. So goodbye toxic hateful co-worker who doesn’t do their work and hello permanent job position with an actual good salary. Finally.
    The only bummer is I could have kept the job im doing and gotten in permanent at a later date and have had a higher salary- but I couldn’t deal with the toxic co-worker any longer.
    TLDR: Took a technical pay cut (it’s only technical because if I wasn’t on a student salary I would have been getting a pay cut or a demotion) that will in the end reap better benefits and got rid of a toxic co-worker. What a great Friday.

    1. Traffic_Spiral*

      Peace of mind is worth money – also you’ll work better and get better promotions (meaning more money) eventually if you don’t have a toxic coworker.

  98. MLiz*

    I have another one for this week.

    Office hairstyles! We’ve a had a few questions in recent weeks which touched in hair, and it got me thinking.

    Is it okay to always wear a ponytail/hair pulled back simply? I have very thick, very unruly hair (not ethnic, just difficult), but I look horrible with short hair. I tried that, it’s terrible. I feel bad. So short hair is not an option. I pull it back, I wear a ponytail, it works.

    But all of my (female) colleagues wear their hair short or open, not in ponytails, but also not elaborately done. Their age range runs form 30-60, so there’s no indicator there. We don’t have customer contact, we don’t need to be super polished (just dressed professionally, this includes nice jeans), the company leans conservative in general but we’re not in finance/banking/etc (i.e. no startup culture, no holes in clothing, no pajamas, what have you).

    If I wear my hair open it gets everywhere and doesn’t stay nice and smooth but plumes out. It’s also hot as hell in sommer.

    Thoughts? No one has actually said anything, but I’m starting to feel weird about this. Is it professional enough to always wear a ponytail?

    2. writelhd*

      I think if it’s ok to wear nice jeans in your office, there’s no problem with ponytails. I think in general there’s not a problem with ponytails, but I don’t work in bank/finance or law, the industries that come to mind that require super business professional dress, and I never really paid much attention to the hairstyle of the female bank tellers I’ve interacted with. I also don’t think there’s anything unprofessional about wearing your hair the same way every day–after all, that’s what people with very short hair pretty much do!

    3. Curious Cat*

      One of my coworkers has a ponytail every day, I’ve never really thought anything of it. I also often just clip part of my hair back in a bobbypin or whatnot to keep it out of my face. As long as you’re not dying your hair crazy colors or shaving half off (which it sounds like might not be acceptable in your office) what you’re doing sounds fine!

    4. Jady*

      I wear a ponytail most of the time in an office that allows jeans.

      It’s never even occurred to me that it would be weird.

      I think you’re way overthinking this.

    5. Environmental Compliance*

      Just did a count at my jeans-wearing-office, and of the women that work here, 75% of us wear ponytails/messy buns most every day.

      We are at a manufacturing facility’s main office, for some background.

    6. Bex*

      I think a ponytail is completely appropriate. If you want to dress it up a pit, you can add a curved barrette over the rubber band. IMO it looks more polished and intentional

    7. Artemesia*

      I think it is fine but you could also experiment with clips of various sorts to put it up a bit.

      1. MLiz*

        Ah…ahaha…. My hair is SO heavy…it doesn’t stay up. Not even all sort of rubber bands work without me having to redo it every hour or so. I mean it does stay up and put with copious amounts of hairspray and a while package of bobby pins and by sectioning the hell out of it…. But that’s something I will go through if I go to a wedding or something, not every day. It’s really difficult (and it’s not super long, we’re talking shoulder length, just enough so the ponytail will stick).

        Thanks though, I appreciate the vote pro-ponytail!

        1. Observer*

          Pony with a clip OVER the rubber band, if you want to dress it up, although I don’t even thing you really need the clip if you don’t want to be bothered. Given what you’re describing, that sounds fine. If you needed to be more conservative and “professional” (ie more dressed up), bun, french braid or french twist should work.

    8. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve decided that I don’t care what others think – when it is hot, I am wearing braids. Occasionally I wrap them around my head, but usually they are just down. Little girl braids on an aging, greying, older woman. Wear the ponytail – together we will change the styles allowed.

    9. Overeducated*

      I think that’s fine. I think it’s analogous to makeup – there are a few industries where a specifically stylish kind of appearance matters, but if you’re not in one, it doesnt really matter as long as it isn’t distractingly crazy or messy.

  99. Newbie*

    What’s the weirdest/most embarrassing non-work thing you’ve done on work time?

    Question inspired by me noticing my boss’s to-do list he had up while he was sharing his screen – I didn’t really read any of the items on it, just noticed it was really long and made a comment about how he must have a lot to do. He immediately tabbed away and was like “Oops, don’t look at that!” I think in reality he probably had some item on the list related to a peer’s performance or salary or something, but it’s more fun to imagine he had something like “finish writing Harry/Luna fanfic chapter 3”. ;)

    1. Guilty of that*

      I’ve done so much personal shit on business time but that’s during the years of me being on-call and breathing business. So yeah. I had a personal office and worked alone on Fridays for a couple years. I did…things.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Definitely been guilty of finalizing a few details on a knitting pattern submission before sending it in. The work monitors are bigger than my laptop’s screen, in my defense, lol. Thankfully I did it during lunch breaks, so no one really seemed to care and just asked what the pattern was meant to make.

    3. Temperance*

      I regularly call my niece and nephew from work. They’re little kids – 3 and 5 – and it’s very obvious that I’m talking to a child from my context of our calls. I get home too late to call them after work, and they love talking on the phone, so I do it.

      I did get made fun of a lot by someone who walked by while I was debating Pinky Pie vs. Rainbow Dash, though. (In good fun; his daughter is obsessed with MLP, too.)

      1. The Original K.*

        On the subject of family phone calls, at a previous job, it was around holiday time and one of my coworkers was talking to his very elderly, very hard of hearing great aunt about his plans to go home for the holidays. He had an office and was in there with the door closed, and he was literally shouting – everyone could hear him yelling “DECEMBER 19TH!” over and over. At first we pretended not to hear him but after about the fourth “DECEMBER 19TH!” everyone within earshot just started laughing. He came out of the office and saw us and knew we’d heard him and he cracked up too. It was the kind of office where gentle ribbing was totally fine to do, so it became a running joke leading up to the holidays, like “Hey, when is your flight? Is it … December 20?”

      2. Artemesia*

        Awww. Those things are timeless aren’t they. My daughter loved MLP when she was little – never went for dolls but loved the ponies. She saved all hers and her own little girl played with them when she was the age of your nieces and loved them too.

    4. Lentils*

      I…definitely DID write fanfic in one window while doing work in another window at my old job. Ahem.

      This was the same job where people would watch Let’s Play videos or Twitch streams while they worked, so I never really felt all THAT bad, and I did get work done.

    5. Murphy*

      I had a phone conversation about flowers I’d ordered my mother for mother’s day that never arrived. There’s no good private place for a call, and they kept putting me on hold anyway, so I just stayed at my desk and worked while I was on hold. I was polite (I hope) but I was mad and I let them know. No one sits in the desks closest to me, but I think a few people may have heard what it’s like to make me angry, haha.

      Also, not the same, but while I was on lunch break a while back, before smart phones were really popular I tried to buy bras online during a Victoria’s Secret sale. I got a message saying that the page was blocked “Reason: Sex”. I don’t know if that ever got kicked up anywhere that I tried to access a blocked site.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I tried to read Cracked.com at Exjob once during a very slow day and it was blocked. Reason: Tasteless. Well of course; that’s why I wanted to read it!!

  100. Bea*

    FML. I just realized I read an applicant’s name wrong and addressed her improperly. Thankfully I had the chance to confirm with her one last time and apologized for being that-asshole.

    I’m the worst at this HR stuff when it comes to recruiting.

    But a crew member left me a giant sack of treats for doing my job so…damn I love it here.

  101. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

    Just had to put this out there. I just had an interviewee email me and ask me to send him a reminder the day before his interview. W T F

    1. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Man, it would be tempting (but of course, not nice) to reply back and say, “Oops! That interview request was sent to you in error. Please disregard. I apologize for the miscommunication.”

      (Isn’t this kind of request better suited for phones and calendars and even friends/relatives??)

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        Seriously. I just responded and said “No, you’ll need to setup your own reminder system.” I had way more stuff swirling around in my head to say but went with that lol.

        1. WellRed*

          Sounds like the type who will come in as an intern and ask the admin to bring him coffee.

    2. HeightsHeifer*

      This sounds like the kind of employee who texts you every Monday morning to ask if “we’re still on for work”.

  102. sadboss*

    I’m worried about my boss. They’ve been acting a little weird lately and i don’t know how to approach it. By weird, crying in 121 sessions being a bit more distant than usual and some other things. I don’t have a great relationship with them but is there anything I can do?

    1. Bea*

      That sounds like possible breakup or health issues with a loved one.

      I would just let them handle it but make sure you let them know that if they need something more from you to lighten their work stresses, you’re happy to step up.

      1. sadboss*

        Thanks. I wasn’t sure if i could ask another in our organisation to keep an eye out.

        1. Bea*

          You can certainly ask someone you’re closer with if they’ve noticed the odd behavior as well. Perhaps they know more. Just make sure you are coming from a place of concern (of course you are, but you know what I mean hopefully!) so that people know you’re not gossiping to figure out the problem.

          “I’ve noticed boss has been crying during our meetings, I’m worried about her. Do you think we can do anything to make her feel better?” kind of thing. Just keep out speculation and “Do you know what’s going on?! Tell me details.” Then the coworker can say “Yes, her mother is ill, so she’s been stressed out.” or something along those lines or they may not have noticed at all because some people are aloof.

  103. ElspethGC*

    I’ve gone back through Alison’s resume archive but I can’t find anything tailored to what I need, so, if you’ll excuse the wall of text:

    I’m just finishing up my second year at university (UK – I’m starting my final year in September 2018) and trying to find a job for this summer, but I’m having difficulties with my CV/resume. I don’t have a job while I’m at university because my student loans are covering it sufficiently, so I don’t have anything current to put on there. I had a job waitressing at a cafe 2014-16 that I got dropped without warning from just before my final A-level exams (I’ve since learnt that this is a common theme with the cafe dropping people before they turn 18 so they don’t have to pay the 18+ minimum wage, but that’s a complaint for another time) and I didn’t end up getting another job for that summer. I couldn’t find a job last summer in 2017, so I ended up volunteering at a YMCA charity shop for those three months. But that’s all the work I can put on there, and it’s hardly a lot!

    Should I try to play up my ‘achievements’ in those roles, even though there’s not really anything of note? I guess I could mention that at YMCA, I helped out with bringing the shop back to a workable state following the crisis months of the previous manager really letting things go and not handling stock properly. Should I add in the fact that I was a Young Leader with a Guide unit for three years, even though that doesn’t really fall under the headings of either work or education, or just mention it in the ‘personal’ section if it’s relevant to the role eg working with children? The Guide leader has agreed to be a reference for me, since I was effectively volunteering under her for three years.

    Ugh. Help. All the advice seems to be tailored to actual grads who are applying for actual jobs rather than summer part-time temps.

    (Also, pre-booked holidays and pre-booked commitments. How does that work when you apply for summer temp positions?) (Also also, I recognise that I’m in the UK and the law and customs of job-hunting etc are very different here to the US where a lot of commenters are.)

    1. rosie*

      It sounds like you did do a lot at the YMCA shop, and helping return the shop to normalcy after a departure is a great example of problem-solving to use in interviews. You can also point to work you’ve done for your degree (group projects, lab work, etc) as examples of working in a team, etc. Pretty much everything you’ve mentioned was developing soft skills you could take to a temp role, so I definitely encourage you to mention it on your CV.

      If you’re looking for roles through a temp agency, you can let them know about your summer commitments/holidays and they could help you work around them. I’m American but my boyfriend is British so I’m relatively familiar with UK job-hunting conventions. My boyfriend did lots of summer temp work through agencies while in uni and he was able to use all those positions on his CV going into his post-graduate job hunt. When you return to uni you could also look into student ambassador roles, which are pretty flexible in terms of hours. My boyfriend even had shifts as a student ambassador where all he had to do was be available to answer Twitter DMs sent to the uni–didn’t even have to leave his house.

      Good luck!

    2. Bex*

      You can absolutely put your volunteer experience on your resume! Your two examples are both pretty strong too, since the YMCA one has some great accomplishments and the Guide one shows a long term commitment.

      The holiday thing might be an issue though. Since summer jobs are only for a limited time, they often want you there every week.

      If you can afford it, I’d also look into getting a part time job where you make decent money, and then a second internship that is more focused on your long term job goals.

  104. 99 Lead Balloons*

    Job search question! I recently took about a year and a half off to get a graduate degree. I started a new job in January that I thought would be a great fit. It’s not. It’s terrible. They hid all the red flags in the closet. I’ve only been here 5 months, so I’m comfortable leaving it of my resume. Can I also omit it in online applications under work experience or will that bite me in the rear later?

    Job history: 3.5 years with one company out of college, laid off, then one year in another industry before quitting to go back to school.

    1. AeroEngineer*

      5 months is a pretty long time for some industries. I know that for some applications I have submitted they want everything which was more than 30 days, but they usually explicitly state that.

      Personally I would state it and if it comes up in the interview say something like “the job turned out to be different than what was described…” or some other form of that.

    2. Bea*

      You’re looking while still employed? Yes? Or are you going to quit and go into full time job search mode?

      If you’re working during the time you’re searching, don’t omit it. However you will be asked about why you’re leaving and that’s when you discuss your issues of being told one thing and it being different than you signed up for, etc. It’s better to be “working” and looking if you can stick it out!

    3. BRR*

      The online application systems usually specific if you must list all work history in my experience.

    4. Cedrus Libani*

      I would leave it on for this job search, particularly if you’re still employed there. Go with the most professional explanation you can give, along the lines of “this job was misrepresented, and I want to get back to XYZ”.

      Then take it off in the future, unless you’re explicitly required to list it. Presumably you don’t want these people to be called for a reference.

  105. Pollygrammer*

    The opposite of the “can I do a phone interview with a cell phone?” I had a scheduled phone interview and the recruiter interviewing me called from a cell phone which was all crackle/echo/fuzz, going in and out. I tried to fake it for a little while and asked her to repeat herself a lot, and basically managed to understand the questions she was asking me, but eventually I had to say “I really can’t understand you.” She called me back–same problem. Eventually, she rescheduled for two hours later so she could get to the home office and use a landline, and she called me ten minutes late.

    As soon as we hung up, I made a couple test calls, so I can be certain it wasn’t on my end.

    Now I’ve got a couple worries:
    She might suspect I was just trying to buy time because I wasn’t prepared for the interview. (Or I was just being a diva).
    She might wonder why I didn’t say something sooner if I couldn’t hear her.
    And…who doesn’t call for an interview from a landline, or at the very least a cell they’ve made sure has good signal? Should I be concerned about this organization’s professionalism? (There are a couple other slight red flags–their website is very outdated and homemade-looking, the job ad is a little sloppy and gives two different salary ranges).

    How would you have handled this?

    TL;DR–interviewer called me from a cell with really poor signal–what should I have done?

    1. Jady*

      I would have done the same thing you did.

      But also, I don’t think it’s very weird for anyone to be using a cell phone. I’ve interviewed for all my jobs with a cell phone. There could be all kinds of reasons her phone would suddenly start having issues – she could have dropped it, had it out in rain, been in a bad signal area, maybe using some kind of new mobile headset that didn’t work out, etc.

      Keep an lookout for other red flags, but the phone thing alone I wouldn’t give much concern over. Technology doesn’t always work perfectly.

    2. SciDiver*

      Signal can be bad for a couple reasons–almost every office I’ve worked in has a couple dead zones, weather can be a problem in some places, or sometimes you just call from your desk without checking that you’ve got cell service. It’s good you asked her to repeat herself when you couldn’t understand, and that shouldn’t count against you if she’s a reasonable person. It also seems unlikely to me that it would be interpreted as you being unprepared and trying to buy time. I’ve been in situations like this before, where for various reasons I can’t hear/understand the interviewer’s questions, and my go-to is repeat the questions back before I answer fully, like “If I understood correctly, the question was about my experience in X, specifically with regard to tasks A and B?” It gives you a second to think and saves you from answering a different question than they asked!

  106. Higher Ed Database Dork*

    My biases: I work in higher ed IT, I’m always on the casual side of bus-cas, and I don’t like to fuss with my hair – though I do like to try new styles and colors, but I don’t like to spend a lot of time fixing it.

    My answer: I think it’s totally fine to always have a ponytail. I see nothing inherently unprofessional about a ponytail. Of course I think standard things like “is it clean, is it tidy” apply here – if your hair looks like you just came from a spinning class, then that’s probably not professional, but if you just pull it back that’s probably fine.

    Also I feel you on the thick, unruly hair. I do like to cut mine short when it’s hot, but it’s taken years of experimentation and an awesome stylist to finally get to a point where I have a good short style, so I don’t judge you about not wanting to go short. My hair is thick and wavy and frizzy, and it gets sooooo hot and my head sweats. However I don’t tend to wear ponytails because they hurt my head.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oops, this was intended for MLiz’s question about office hairstyles!

  107. Grande Latte*

    Oh my gosh you guys I just had a great second interview and got invited for a third and final in person interview next week.
    I am really excited about this job but I am also having some hardcore guilt/fear of leaving my current job. This isn’t my first time changing jobs so I know it’s normal, but my situation is a little different this time and I need some outside perspectives that don’t belong to my friends/family.

    Situation: I am part of a department of two llama groomers. The senior llama groomer recently transferred to the alpaca grooming department, leaving just me. They are not replacing him, and I was basically told that I get to do his job now (no promotion or compensation increase*, or even a conversation of “hey does this interest you?”). He was the only llama groomer for 15 years until I was hired and started learning his role. Cross training and documentation has historically not been done. I’ve been changing that bit by bit since I started but there’s a 15 year backlog! So. If I leave, the department is going to be losing a LOT of knowledge. I realize that’s my boss’s problem and he would lay me off if the business told him to but… gosh it’s hard to shrug it off when it’s leaving such a big hole for people who I personally like.

    *Second thing, I have been in line for a promotion for like a year now. It is (supposedly) finally in motion and going to happen “this summer.” Would it be looked on negatively to leave now, when I am being told I am getting a promotion “soon” but it hasn’t happened yet? It vaguely reminds me of people who leverage a promotion to get a more prestigious job offer, but that is absolutely not what I’m doing! Just how the timing works out (and it is more if a lateral move). Is it bad optics to leave now?

    1. lopsided*

      OMG THIS WAS MY SITUATION.

      I get it. I was the only Teapot Shaper in the department and leaving would leave them in a lurch. I also had a “junior” title even though the previous Teapot Shaper had left and I had taken on all of the support work for the department.

      It hit a point where I realized I’d be doing the same boring stuff for months and months, or I had to leave. I had told them in no uncertain terms that I wanted a promotion and another Shaper to do the lower-level work so I could focus on new ideas. But nothing happened.

      Once I starting job searching, everything was a billion times easier. I got an offer and gave my notice last week, and they weren’t happy, but they had known that I wasn’t happy for well over half a year. I’ve been spending my notice period making a bunch of documentation and tying up the loose ends that I can. I have no regrets.

    2. Graciosa*

      No, it is not bad optics to leave now.

      You need to be pleasant and friendly and work well with other people at your current job.

      You do not need to give up your career opportunities because you like them. No one who actually cares about you would expect it.

      Good luck.

    3. Observer*

      So, you’re a department of one. Does that mean you never get to leave? The answer is absolutely not. In this case, it’s even less of an issue because there is someone in the org who has a lot of institutional knowledge, so it’s better for you to leave now rather later. Also, this is really supposed to be a two person department by your description. So, that fact that you are leaving a one person department empty is even more on the employer than usual.

      The whole “you’ll be getting a promotion real soon now. Really. We don’t know when, but trust us. Yeah we had a perfectly good opportunity but we didn’t want to take it. Trust us.” doesn’t make YOU look any worse. It just adds a good reason to look elsewhere.

  108. AwkwardestTurtle*

    A faculty member I haven’t interacted with in 5 years BCCs me on his suuuuuper personal emails.

    In my previous role I was an admin assistant at the same university I still work at. While I was an admin I did some scheduling for a faculty, I’ll call Gandolf. I didn’t really do much for him besides some scheduling, so saying I was his assistant is a bit of a stretch. I worked with him for maybe 6 months or so. I haven’t seen him in 5 years and don’t think he’d recognize me if we saw each other.

    Maybe 3 years ago I was BCC’d on an email from him that was addressed to his attorney about legal problems his son was having. I assumed it was a mistake and deleted it immediately. He is an emeritus professor and not very tech-savvy.

    But I’ve gotten several more periodically. More about the troubled son, something about a community project. Less than 10 emails total so I mostly just ignore them and wonder WTF. Most recently (first email in maybe 2 years) I’m BCC’d on an email to his doctor about his GI issues (gross).

    WTF would you do in this situation??? Keep deleting/ignoring the emails? Send him a note saying “hey I think you BCC’d me accidentally on this”? Is it possible there’s a weird technical glitch causing this? Is his wife’s name also AwkwardestTurtle so I just pop up on his autofill?

    1. Tara S.*

      Probably an auto-fill mistake. A quick reply email on the next one that comes in would be appropriate. “Oops, I don’t think this was for me!” should be fine.

    2. BlueWolf*

      You are right to delete them, but I also think if you are getting emails in error (especially such personal ones) you should definitely give him a heads up. It seems likely he is accidentally selecting you with the autofill (it happens even to us relatively tech-savvy people).

      1. Kathleen_A*

        It could be that in addition by sending these emails to the wrong person, he is actually not sending them to the right person – to someone who actually needs to see them. So I’d say something. “Oops, I don’t think this is for me!” would be fine.

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      I’d be tempted to take the coward’s route and set up an email filter that will autoreply to only his email address. Then depending on the route you want to go down you can either set up a fake bounceback, or a ‘please note that I am no longer picking up emails from this account’ or whatever else you feel like. Hopefully he’ll get the first one, realise his mistake, and fix the issue without you ever having to admit you’ve seen these personal emails.

      Alternatively, given that you’re never likely to have him email you for legitimate reasons, just set up a filter to automatically delete any email from him before you see it.

    4. AwkwardestTurtle*

      Yeah I feel super awkward replying to them because they are so deeply personal and I don’t want to embarrass him.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Yeah, but he’d probably prefer to have the embarrassing thing end sooner rather than later – and then there’s also the chance that when he sends them to you, he’s NOT sending them to someone who should see them. I get your awkwardness, but I really do think you need to say something to him so I can figure out a way to stop doing it.

    5. Artemesia*

      Almost certainly some automatic thing with his computer set up that is filling your name in when he intends something else. Yikes. Sometimes it is one off weirdness. I once had a personal email just attached mid paragraph to a professional email – the two just combined. Luckily the personal note to my daughter was not embarrassing, but the fact that this banal missive ended up in a professional email to the boss WAS very embarrassing. To this day I have no idea how this kind of thing could happen. But with constant BCC, I’ll bet your name starts the same as his wife who he is intending to BCC or something like that.

  109. Fiennes*

    Second time around, briefer this go:

    My partner and I are considering an international move, specifically to Italy. He’s probably changing careers anyway, and is considering getting a TEFL certificate so he can teach English part time, as a way of contributing financially while still having time/energy to explore and train for other options. He’s taught music part time before, so knows that he both likes and is good at teaching. It’s something he can accomplish during our most ambitious time frame. But is the work out there to be had? (We’re looking at Bologna right now, but could wind up many different places, maybe even other E.U. countries.) Those of you who’ve taught English abroad—what are the prospects? What are the problems and misconceptions?

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Does your partner have EU citizenship? It can be really hard for non-EU citizens to get non-sketchy TEFL jobs in the EU.

      1. Fiennes*

        I am about to have E.U. citizenship, which should be finalized some months before we move. Our plan is to finally get hitched and begin processing his E.U. citizenship through me. So while he might not yet have it at our move, he’s likely to get it shortly thereafter. We’re still in preliminary investigation, but it seems like he would fairly quickly be able to obtain residency with the right to work. How well does that go over?

        Also, we’ve seen a lot of talk about sketchy TEFL jobs, but few details on just how this sketchiness manifests itself. I’d be grateful for any details!

        1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          I’m not familiar with Italy specifically, so I can’t say how well that would work, although it’s more promising than if he wouldn’t have EU citizenship. What I’ve heard is mainly Americans (because the TEFL people I know are basically all American) getting paid under the table when working in Europe because they can’t legally get jobs, which leaves them open to risk. I’ve also heard unpleasant things about scheduling (split shifts, working very long hours). Although, again, I haven’t heard anything specific about Italy, so that might not happen as much there or there might be other problems common to the TEFL industry in Italy.

    2. jonbonspicedham*

      Prospects and requirements vary widely by country. It also depends on what kind of setting you want to teach in and what ages you want to teach, ie international schools require a teaching certificate and classroom experience but language institutes may only want a warm body.

      I´m currently teaching English in Mexico at a private school and here it´s easy to find work but the work is low-paid compared to jobs in Asia and the Middle East. I’ve read that Europe can be tough without EU citizenship and a CELTA. I found the tefl subreddit to be a helpful resource when planning my move– there´s lots of info there. Good luck!!

      1. Fiennes*

        A language institute would probably be fine–he isn’t looking at this as a permanent career, but something to do for a year or two while he determines his next steps.

        Although he probably won’t be a citizen when we move, as the spouse of an EU citizen, I think he’s able to obtain residency with the right to work. But we definitely need to spend time on that subreddit, so thanks for the tip!

      2. AcademiaNut*

        That’s what I’ve heard about Europe – they can fairly easily get EU citizens who are fluent/native speakers, so sponsoring work visas is not a high priority, whereas in East Asia, most of the jobs are filled by foreigners.

        Things to check – what sort of job can you get with a TEFL certificate? Where I am, you need a bachelor’s degree (in something) to get *any* legal teaching visa, and a certificate without the degree is useless (a friend was in this situation). Someone with a random bachelor’s degree but no teaching experience/training would only to be able to get less well paid jobs in cram schools (mostly evening and weekends) or with young children, where they’re basically English speaking daycare workers. A TEFL certificate would get you jobs at some of the better cram schools. Better jobs at schools generally require an education degree or equivalent plus experience.

        If your partner has the ability to work without a visa, then they could pursue private tutoring as well.

        The economic situation matters too. My understanding is that the economy in Italy is pretty bad right now, which could affect the number of jobs available (cutbacks, less money to hire tutors), and increase competition for the ones that are there.

    3. Bex*

      I can’t speak to English/music teaching opportunities specifically, but the overall unemployment rates in Italy are pretty brutal and many jobs don’t cover COL. I would definitely try to have at least one job lined up before you make the jump.

      1. Fiennes*

        My work travels with me, and it’s adequate to support us both. However, my partner is eager to contribute something toward expenses from the get-go, and he doesn’t want to just sit around the house wondering what to do next–he wants to start getting to know the country, the culture, etc.

  110. ElspethGC*

    I completely forgot about this until today, but have a great Pride Month, everyone! May your month be full of rainbows and free of bigotry. Feel free to turn this into a fun pride-related thread, because I’m reading some pretty depressing stuff elsewhere on the internet and need a pick-me-up.

    1. Mammal*

      I just moved across the country to be with my partner! We’re very gay and very in love and I love waking up next to them every morning! Wow!

    3. Andraste*

      This is my first pride month out as bi and I am so happy to be participating!! :)

  111. Yams*

    I have a question about leaving a job with high turnover. I basically manage the sourcing of one of our two key commodities, along with another sourcing person who manages our core commodity. I got promoted into this position when my ex-coworker left last month. My current coworker’s assistant left two weeks ago. Yesterday my coworker pulled me aside and told me he would be leaving the company in mid-July. I’m basically freaking out since our hiring processes mean we wouldn’t have an assistant for that commodity (we had someone in mind, but they yelled at a corporate supplier and I got a call from the corporate purchasing director calling for a meeting with my boss, my coworker and the guy we were going to promote), and once my coworker leaves finding a replacement would take a few months at the very least (our pay tables are below the market rate for the position).
    I should leave, right? I’ve been in this company for almost two years and while I do like my job, I am being headhunted for a couple of really interesting opportunities which would pay significantly more (above 30%, maybe even up to 50% raises plus better benefits) with less travel!

    1. Yams*

      An extra I forgot, I cannot handle the responsibility of both commodities, it is an impossible amount of work for just one person. Mine is already overly broad and stretches me very thin with my travel requirements (around 25%) and his is just an overwhelming amount of work for two people, let alone one.

      1. Artemesia*

        Get out at the first good opportunity. Businesses that don’t pay market rate and don’t staff properly are the universe’s way of telling you it is time to go. Don’t panic, but start looking earnestly and take a better offer when it appears.

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          Agreed. If your business wants the job done right, it can pay what it costs to do it right. If it wants to pay just enough to have it done badly, they have the right to do so, but you’re under no obligation to work like two people just so they can pay for a quarter-assed job and get a half-assed one instead.

          Frankly, one of the best reasons to be good at what you do is so you can get hired by people who actually value your work – they want it done right, and are willing to pay for it. More fun, more money, less stress.

    2. CatCat*

      Sounds like there are some potentially great opportunities out there for you. Can’t hurt to look into them! I would!

    3. Bea*

      Don’t tie yourself down anywhere, think about yourself and your happiness! If somewhere is stretching you this thin, it’s the nature of the beast that you won’t stay for a long time. Two years is pretty solid and that isn’t bad at all! So yes, move to greener pastures when you find them :)

  112. jonbonspicedham*

    To quit, or not to quit??

    Background: am in my second career (first career was a 24-7 type of thing and now I and just want a sustainable life-work balance for the long-term. I want to do a good job but I don’t need to be The Best.)

    I have a very easy job right now. It is in a field where commonly there is lots of work to take home, but I have none. However, the workplace is very disorganized and this causes me some stress… but that is literally my only source of stress at this job. I don´t have to work in a team, and the expectations for me (which I regularly exceed) are low. Work-life balance is good but I feel like I will stagnate here in the long-term.

    I have a job offer from a seemingly more organized place. But I would have to do more work. Pay and vacation are the same, benefits are slightly better. Many more opportunities for growth. But, less free time.

    What would the commentariat do?

    1. HeightsHeifer*

      I would take the new job offer. It sounds like the job is more challenging (in a good way) with better benefits and job growth, and personally I could handle more work if the tradeoff is fair.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Personally I would take it. It sounds like in the shorter term you will get frustrated at your current job as well, so for longer term possibilities it seems like a good choice to change.

    3. Jady*

      I think it depends on your industry and how long you’ve been in the position. Is it an industry that requires you to keep up with the latest and greatest (mainly Tech or Health jobs)? Have you been there less than 5 years?

      If the answer to both those questions is no – I would personally choose to stay. Changing jobs always has a single huge risk factor: Devil you know vs devil you don’t. You could get in there and have a horrific boss, unrealistic expectations, etc.

      If the pay at the new job were significantly higher, I would probably leave.

      If you need to keep up with the industry and you’ve been there 5+ years, I would start looking for a new job, but it’s doubtful I’d accept for the same salary, unless my current salary was at the top I could expect from the position. Or there was some other huge benefit at the new job that was equivalent to a raise (like more PTO).

      1. jonbonspicedham*

        It´s in education. So while I SHOULD be required to keep up on things, in this country (not the USA) there is no such requirement for me.

        Yeah, that´s kinda what I`ve been thinking. I had many years of work experience before starting this new career and I feel like changing jobs without a very clear reason to do so is a recipe for disappointment. It´s like getting a haircut. If you know what you want, I think you´re more likely to end up with what you want.

        1. Traffic_Spiral*

          Keep trying! If nothing else, it’s a non-destructive stress outlet for when your boss pisses you off.

    2. NicoleK*

      You have my sympathy. I don’t hate my coworker, but I hate hate working with her.

  114. Tris Prior*

    Has anyone had trouble narrowing down a job search because of broad interests or skill set, or because of not being terribly career-oriented and just wanting a pleasant enough place to do your job and then go home? What did you do? Any tips?

    Boyfriend is job hunting, and this seems to be a struggle for him because he isn’t sure what to search for and mainly just wants to work in a job where he is treated like a human being and has good work-life balance, which you can’t really screen for from job ads. So he ends up getting overwhelmed and giving up. I admit I can’t relate, as I’m in a very niche field with a narrow industry-specific skill set, so I’m not sure how to help him.

    He has a lot of office/admin experience, but no experience booking travel, which pretty much every admin job listing seems to demand. (We barely even travel ourselves for pleasure and when we do, I book it!) And he’s not interested in reception work or anything that’s very phone-intensive.

    Any tips for helping him get specific about what he’s looking for, and therefore how to target his search? I keep asking him about what he wants to do, and I get a list of what he DOESN’T want – so if anyone has tips on overcoming this and putting your job search in positive terms, I’m all ears on that too.

    1. HeightsHeifer*

      It might be worthwhile to try a temp agency so he can try some short-term gigs and find something that really appeals to him and focus his job search. He may also need to reevaluate his wants because having office and administrative experience is so varied but if he’s not willing to book travel, work reception, or handle phones he’s probably going to get overlooked.

      1. Tris Prior*

        He’s willing to book travel, but has no experience in doing so and most of the ads we’ve been running across require experience in it. He would completely fail at the phone thing because social anxiety (no judgment, I’m the same way), and honestly, it’s never come up in any of his past jobs or in his current one.

        He’s had success with temp agencies before, when he was between jobs, but at this time we can’t afford for him to not have stable employment and health insurance. (He currently has a full-time job with benefits but it is a very toxic environment and he wants out.) I’ve run the numbers a gazillion different ways but it just doesn’t work out financially for him to not have steady work. Fortunately, as toxic as the place is, it seems pretty stable. Though obviously there are no guarantees.

        1. HeightsHeifer*

          No judgment here on the anxiety front – I suffer too. It sounds like he’s in a tough spot, but he’s probably also getting anxious with his current toxic job. That can make the job search SO much more stressful when you’re already ready to bounce. Maybe he can try to figure out which jobs interest him and what skills he would need to transfer to that role? Sometimes when I’m bored I’ll take a free career aptitude test to confirm that yes, I am insane for choosing a career in HR.

          1. Tris Prior*

            Oh – an aptitude test is a good idea. That might give him some direction. He’s also open to changing fields entirely – but at this point giving him even more choices beyond admin work seems to be making him feel more overwhelmed, if that makes sense.

  115. FinallyFriday*

    I’m a fairly junior manager and I haven’t been in the position very long. My predecessor was in my position for several years and had been with the company over a decade.

    I’m struggling with differences in philosophy with my supervisor. He’s the same age as my parents and is the type of person who derives satisfaction from work alone, which is great, but I am not and my team is not (we’re all millennial). Just to be clear, we’re all willing to stay and work to get the job done. I don’t feel that my team is made up of slackers, and my boss seems happy with my work ethic.

    Some examples of our philosophy difference include:
    – He finds any more than one sick day in a six month period to be “excessive”
    -when we have to travel he wants us to travel on Sunday because we “aren’t working on the planes or in the airport” (usually when we travel it’s about a 13 hour trip with multiple plane changes) I don’t mind the Sunday thing if we’re given notice of the travel and if it’s occasional, but for some employees travel is not infrequent at all

    Just some additional background, my boss and I have very different functions and the departments we run are very very different and I understand how his philosophy works for many of his employees (they’re all hourly and never have to travel). I also think he truly practices what he preaches, he doesn’t expect us to do anything he wouldn’t do himself, and he genuinely cares about my team.

    1. CM*

      It’s not clear to me whether you can treat your team according to your philosophy, or whether you are expected to treat your team according to his. If it’s not clear to you either, you can check in with him and explain that you think the people on your team are willing to do what it takes to get the work done, but you prefer to give them some flexibility and think that this will make your staff more productive and easier to retain. You can ask if this is okay with him, even though he doesn’t share that philosophy. If the answer is no, I think you have to live with that.

    2. ..Kat..*

      More than one sick day in six months is NOT excessive!

      And expecting employees (especially those who travel frequently) to give up half their weekend for a day of grueling travel is ridiculous. Is he meeting them halfway by flying them business (or first) class? (And if they are in the USA and non-exempt, I’m not sure this is legal.)

      This is why people leave for better jobs. IMO, he has unrealistic expectations.

    3. Traffic_Spiral*

      – He finds any more than one sick day in a six month period to be “excessive”

      So would I, but in a “why am I sick – this is bullshit” way, not in a “why am I not spreading the flu to my coworkers while filling the office with the dulcet sounds of my hacking cough” way.

      -when we have to travel he wants us to travel on Sunday because we “aren’t working on the planes or in the airport”

      Well I’m not doing it for fun, am I? If I’m doing something at the instructions of my employer, it’s work. I mean, maybe I can get some work done on the plane as well, but I’m not sitting on some cramped airplane seat because this is just how I unwind on my day off, you know.

  116. Anon to me*

    Drama drama where I work this week. We have an employee who is constantly calling out. She’s been calling in saying she’s not coming in at least once a week for almost a year. This week she put in a request this week to take a week off to travel across the country for a significant life event. The request has been denied as she’s out of PTO. So the employee in question is loudly complaining to anyone who will listen that the organization can’t decline her request for time off (she’s willing to take unpaid leave), she’s been talking about how she has chronic medical conditions that mean that the organization must approve all of her time off requests, and that she’s going to sue.

    The employee in question hasn’t yet grasped that she’s not protected by FMLA (as we are too small).

    1. HeightsHeifer*

      I mean she may not be protected by FMLA, but she could be protected by the ADA if your organization meets the size requirements. Not saying that her taking time off is legit or not, but I always ere on the side of caution when someone starts complaining about medical conditions. Regular attendance is usually considered an essential function of most jobs but the courts have usually sided that an employer does not need to accommodate a request to “work when able”. Also, her request for a week off for vacation being denied is not a violation of the ADA but she could try to make a claim of retaliation.

      1. Anon to me*

        The retaliation claim I could see, so that’s good to keep in mind. In terms of ADA though, I suspect she’d have a tough time. It’s a full-time position and I would be surprised if she’s even working 20 hours a week, and when she’s in the office her work is only okay (and because she’s out so much there is a lot of work she’s doesn’t complete).

        She is one of those people who believes that she is untouchable because of her medical conditions.

    2. LCL*

      Indentured servitude isn’t a thing anymore. You can deny approving her leave, she can go anyway, you can fire her for violating policy. I see this as a win-win situation.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m guessing that she hasn’t gone through the formal process of requesting an ADA accommodation either, right? She sounds like she’s just been taking whatever days off she feels like and is now claiming after the fact that they have to give her that time off due to a medical condition. I’ve never gone through the process myself, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how it works. She had to have formally requested work from home, or time off for appointments (for example) a year ago as part of an ADA claim process, and the company then works with her to determine what they can/can’t make an accommodation for. There are usually qualifications and the employer can decide on a different solution than the employee wants. The employee can’t just do whatever they want and shout, “I declare a disability!”

      1. Anon to me*

        No, she hasn’t requested any accommodations. Requesting accommodations would result in structure. I get the impression she wants the ability to come and go as she pleases.

  117. Stephern*

    Do you find LinkedIn a useful source if you are job hunting? Of course, I’ve heard lots about it, but has it helped you, personally and would you recommend setting up an account?

      1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        Same. I only ever got contacted by recruiters for charter schools or private English language schools (like, English for foreign business professionals). I deleted my account and have no regrets!

    2. Mammal*

      You get email notifications when people search for/view your profile, and I definitely noticed an uptick in those notifications when I was job-searching/shortly after I started in new roles (I was doing temp work and had a lot of new roles in a short period of time!) but I don’t know that it’s helpful other than that.

      1. Karo*

        Ditto! When I got my last job, I knew I at least had interest because someone from that company was looking at my profile.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think you only get notified of who looks at your profile if you have Premium (which is $$ after the free month trial). I appear in maybe 10 searches/week on average but only 30-something total people have actually looked at my profile in the past 6 or so months.

        I think the job postings are more current than Glassdoor (which frequently puts up “New” job postings that have been available for 3+ weeks on other sites) and I have applied for multiple and use my LinkedIn profile in applications. But I haven’t gotten a job that way and their “recommended for me” jobs are outside of my specified location, so kinda useless.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I found my current job via a LinkedIn post, so I’d say yes, but I think it depends a lot on what industry you’re in/type of work you’re looking for.

    4. Not that old*

      IT’s been helpful for me as well. Even if you don’t use it for job searching, I recommend creating a profile, as many employers look at that. It also makes it easier to fill out online applications when you can just connect with LinkedIn – saves time. You can also use it to join groups (though they’re less active) and keep up to date with what’s going on in your industry.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      It does depend on industry and location. But generally yes, I recommend it. I was recruited through Linkedin for my current position. A position that was never posted.

    6. Alex*

      For me it’s just another resource to look for jobs. I am not in an industry known for getting recruited. I only get a very small number of profile views and searches. It’s been most helpful to see what kind of experience and skills people have who are doing the types of jobs I aspire to.

  118. Butch Cassidy*

    I’m looking for jobs outside of my current company, and I need references. I’ve had several roles at my current company. My previous boss was someone I barely interacted with and don’t trust, but the boss before that – who would give me a great reference – is close with my current boss and they’re also peers who report to the same person. I want to ask her for a reference but I don’t want her to tell my current boss I’m searching. How should I have that conversation?

    1. Not that old*

      I wouldn’t risk it… You can’t guarantee she won’t tell your boss and cause a whole thing. I’d try someone outside the company or a co-worker you can trust.

  119. Mammal*

    Is there ever an exception to talking about school-related accomplishments once you’re out of school?

    I graduated a year ago and I’m applying for a job whose description emphasizes an ability to find articles in databases, add relevant info to in-house documents with citations etc. In my last semester of undergrad, I won an award for my senior project (a research paper, mine was selected for 3rd place out of around 400 students graduating that semester).

    I’d think this would be relevant to mention in my cover letter, but I also don’t want to overplay my hand. Is this an okay thing to write about?

    1. Mammal*

      To be clear, I mention the paper because it involved a lot of finding articles in databases and summarizing the information! I think that the award indicates that I’m pretty good at that sort of thing and would do well in the position.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I think it would be a nice anecdote for the cover letter or in person but not the resume. Maybe something like:

        I see this role requires X, Y and Z skills in researching teapots databases and articles. I’m one of those people that really enjoys research and digging through articles for the important nuggets of information. My senior research paper was recognized for excellence in research (or whatever is accurate) in college. It won 3rd place out of 400 papers. While that was a year ago, I still have the same passion and drive for research blah blah blah.

      2. Thlayli*

        It sounds like the work you did for the paper is relevant. I think mention the relevant work first and then the award in the next sentence to show that you did a good job. Eg
        “Research project x, included [use the same wording they use to describe the work you did that is relevant]. Project ranked 3rd of 400 students.”

      3. Chaordic One*

        Since it has only been a year since you left school, I think it is O.K. to mention it at this point in time. In 5 or 6 years, though, it will probably no longer be relevant.

    2. Kj*

      I think it is fine, if the work was of a high level. I mention my thesis on my resume and a national (non-student) research award I won for a research project.

    3. fposte*

      It’s not the award that matters here; it’s the research. Telling me you won third prize doesn’t help me understand your skills; telling me your third-place paper involved use of JSTOR, the MLA bibliography, EBSCO databases including Historical Abstracts, and ERIC makes it clear to me that you have a familiarity with different common databases and you understand the difference between them. It also night not hurt to note what citation styles you’ve worked with (“I usually employ MLA style but have also submitted materials in Chicago and APA”).

  120. Ellery*

    Can someone please explain to be the differences between being exempt and non-exempt? (In New York State if that matters.)

  121. BookCocoon*

    Update from last week: My request for an alternate schedule was inexplicably approved right after it was denied. Our director is leaving and I think he made it clear that I was probably going to leave if I didn’t get this schedule change, and the office frankly needs me to get through this transition. I still want another job in the long run for a number of reasons, but this should help carve out some sanity for me in the meantime.

  122. Not that old*

    I saw a job posted on LinkedIn which looked like a great match for me – I seem to hit every bullet point they are looking for, including being a native speaker of a very particular foreign language, experience in a specific type of work, etc. The hiring manager then messaged me on LinkedIn, thanked me for applying, asked for my CV, then asked what year I graduated from college (2008). After that, he went completely silent. This all happened in one day. I’m so annoyed! I’ll definitely wait before I ruin something that could be good, but if I don’t ever hear back from them, should I say something?

    1. CM*

      I’m not sure what you’re annoyed about. I think you’re expecting too much interaction from this job. Wait two weeks and then follow up to reiterate your interest and ask if they will be scheduling interviews.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      Nope. Well, I guess you could wait a couple of weeks and then just send a “Just wanted to make sure you got my CV” note, but that’s about it.

      What were you thinking you’d like to say?

    3. BookCocoon*

      It sounds like you’re making an assumption that he drew some sort of conclusion from the year you graduated. To me it sounds like he just wanted an additional piece of information (maybe for a form?), got it, and didn’t bother to reply to say thanks, which is kind of rude but not the end of the world.

  123. TotesMaGoats*

    Recap of the week:
    1. My college was the only college to get grades in on time. Because I gently remind (aka nag) my faculty. Everyone was else was a week late.
    2. Majorly messed up in helping a student calc their GPA to the point that it prevented graduation. Yeah. But owned up to the mistake and pushed for the exception to a policy and got the student graduated. I’ve been sick over this all week especially because the student has worked so hard and come back from a MAJOR health event. And not getting the degree would impact her employment.
    3. Had a big meeting about recruitment and retention numbers for fall. No, I’m not adding to my team’s workload. We are in the green on all measures. Go away.
    4. Had to do a spur of the moment meeting with international colleagues about a program I know ZERO about. I think it went ok and we are moving forward. It’s only been like 5 years since they’ve tried to move on this project.

    All in all a really good week. It’s just been the LONGEST four day week ever. I’m the only administrator in the office today and it’s slow.

    1. Trixie*

      Curious, have you held any other position at the institution or are internal moves common? I am in my current role for 2.5 years and wondering if I should explore something else at this university or just make the jump to new one. I am aiming to staying in higher ed but without a degree, I will be focusing my collective experience more than anything. Currently serving as executive support to HR dept head which I hope would be valuable in private sector as well. (Both as executive support and handling beyond confidential matters.)

  124. Kit*

    We talk about avoiding burn out, but what do you do when you have actually burnt out?

    My boss went on vacation and then had a late term miscarriage when she got back, so I have been acting manager for 8 weeks. In that time, 5 people (half my staff) left for various reasons (moving away, better pay, once in a lifetime opportunity, dad had a stroke, long term injury), and I have only just managed to hire 3 replacements. I have been doing 3-4 people’s job all this time.

    I just found out my boss applied for a different position in the company while on leave, and when she comes back in a couple weeks she’ll be starting in that job. My grand boss told me this right before asking if I would be applying for her vacancy, and my response was definitely underwhelming because I was reacting to the news that I will not be relieved after all.

    I am so tired, I am barely summoning the will to get out of bed let alone get to work (and have been 10-30 minutes late most days for weeks), and I have daily intrusive thoughts about cutting off my hands. I’m in bad shape. How do I get back to a place where I’m doing better than just barely coping?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think this depends. If you put the emotions of being tired and depressed aside, would you want this new position? Is it a good fit for your skills and experience, a good job move, better money? Maybe you would be able to hire new people to take on tasks you don’t like, or fix problems that have annoyed you in your department. I’d hate to see you throw that away after (from what it sounds like) you’ve already done all the work to earn this promotion and your boss is ready to hand it to you. Now, if you know you don’t want this promotion – which is totally fine! – it’s more straightforward. You can just tell your manager you’re so overwhelmed that you are barely keeping it together and ask for their support – temp workers, a long vacation for you, assign other employees to carry the load – or you’re going to have to quit asap.

      If you would want the promotion if you weren’t already so tired, I think you can still name the problem and ask for these things, but you’d have to be a little more diplomatic about asking for it and not making it seem like you can’t hack or it don’t want to be there.

      This sucks, I’ve been there, deep sympathies.

      1. Kit*

        Thanks, you’ve put a really fine point on the issue. I was supposed to take over for my boss’ 12 month maternity leave, so it is a job we all know I can do well and before all this happened I *was* excited.

        I think I need to talk to my grand boss about my reaction to the news and let him know I’m more excited than I seem, and… fake it till I make it? I’m having a hard time picturing getting past all this but I do know intellectually that it’s because I’m in the middle of it.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          But don’t just say you’re excited and ready to take it on, if you actually are barely getting out of bed in the morning. Depending on your trust in this person, ask for help!!

    2. Thlayli*

      I think you need to make it absolutely clear to grandboss that you need more staff urgently. This is more important even than whether you take the job or not. You’ve lost 5 people from the group and are bout to lose another. Yet you have only hired 3. Tell grandboss in no uncertain terms that you need temps to take some of the load off until you find permanent replacement.

      Once you get a little bit of stress off, you will probably be happy enough to take on the job. But the most important thing to do is to reduce the stress right now. Those intrusive thoughts are a huge warning sign.

    3. Grace Less*

      You need to prioritize self-care. Reach out to your EAP, doctor, or trained counselor. I know that you feel responsible for other people, but you can’t help them until you help yourself.
      If your grand boss has asked how he/she can support you, provide a list with timelines (We need 3 temps by Wednesday, or Project X’s deadline needs to be pushed out to December 31). If he/she hasn’t asked, shame on him/her, and set up an urgent meeting to deliver the list.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Talk with grandboss about what can be put on hold. If she insists it all needs to be done, tell her you are burnt out and just can’t. Hopefully, being short staffed gives you some power here- is grandboss willing to risk losing you?

  125. AliceBG*

    Thismight sound like a “Woe is me, I’m just *too* beautiful!” complaint, but….what should I do about my supervisor praising me *too* much and exaggerating my knowledge base to others in front of me? It makes me really uncomfortable, but I don’t know how to (or if I even should) address it with him except to make self-deprecating comments in the moment.

    For example, as an analogy, imagine I’ve worked as a staff member in an art museum for about 9 months. I have artists in my family, I love art and going to other art museums, I’ve picked up art history knowledge through lifelong exposure to art, but I’m not an art historian. I don’t have any degrees in art. I’ve looked at entrance exams for art history graduate programs and couldn’t answer more than 10% of the questions. In no way am I an expert in art history. However, compared to the other three people on staff in this department with no art background whatsoever, I do know more about art than they do.

    My supervisor will introduce me to visiting art historians (some world-renowned experts in their field) as, “This is Alice, my amazingly knowledgeable staff member! She has an incredible understanding of all periods of art history!” I try to remain professional, but I can’t help but visibly freeze or squirm when he does this, and I usually say something like, “Oh gosh, I’ve just picked things up through osmosis, so there are huge gaps of things I don’t know, ha ha!” Besides the things he says being flat-out untrue, I’m so uncomfortable with the thought that if that expert started to talk to me about art history, they’d quickly recognize that I don’t know very much, and then I–and also my boss–would look foolish. This makes me writhe inside, and unfortunately I can’t always hide it.

    He does this a lot, too. He also praises me to (what I think is) an excessive degree over simple projects that I complete.

    And worst of all, I’m 99% sure he does not do this for the other three staff people on his team, all of whom have been there for 10+ years. (I don’t know what he says to or about them when I’m not around, but I’ve never heard him say anything this complimentary when I am around.) So besides making me uncomfortable, I also don’t want this to be an issue causing resentment towards me or the boss among the other staff.

    I just don’t know how to say to him, “Hey, could you stop praising me so much? It makes me feel awkward, and it looks like you’re playing favorites.”

    Any advice?

    1. Luna*

      The best advice I have is try to find ways to get comfortable accepting the compliment. When he is introducing you to people it’s not necessary to either agree or disagree with what he says- just shake the person’s hand and say “Hi, nice to meet you.”

      I used to be (still am?) very bad at accepting compliments and thought I was only being self-deprecating, but often making those kinds of comments actually comes across as awkward and possibly rude, like you are disagreeing with your boss/your boss doesn’t know what he is talking about. In reality the other person probably doesn’t care whether you are an expert or not! If they do ask you something you don’t know, at that point it’s fine to say that you’re still learning so don’t much about that specific area.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Agree on this point also. I used to always demur on compliments and be self-deprecating because I was raised that way. Well, I realized that my boss takes me seriously when I do that and has actually lowered his opinion of me because he now thinks I have bad self esteem and / honestly informing him I don’t have those skills or attributes. I learned to take a compliment.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I think you can absolutely mention to him, “I don’t have a formal background in art so I think it would be better not to give the impression that I’m an expert – can I ask you to say “Alice loves art” or “Alice is really interested in art” for the business reason given (it would make you all look foolish if you were caught out. The overpraise / praise relative to others issue, I would drop. Maybe the others stink, it’s none of your business and raising it would be weird. We have a new employee that we are falling all over right now, because she replaced someone not that good and we are honestly impressed and overjoyed that things are getting done. That is our experience, it is genuine, and she always accepts it graciously which I think is the best option.

    3. CM*

      I would leave it alone with your supervisor. I think it’s OK for you to say things like, “Ha ha, I’m not really an expert, but I’m looking forward to learning about the Blue Period from you!” or whatever. I also like the phrasing “___ is so kind,” which you could combine with a similar statement (“Supervisor is so kind, I just have a personal interest in this area!”) Or you could just sort of laugh like you know he’s exaggerating, but not say anything. I don’t think it’s necessary to react to his statement if you’re not pretending you’re an expert. I would be very open with the art experts about your level of knowledge, saying things like, “I’m not familiar with this work, can you tell me more about it?” They will realize you’re not an expert, but I doubt it will make your boss look foolish — it will just make him look overly enthusiastic about his staff.

      However, if he does this a lot in front of your coworkers, then I think you could explain that it makes you uncomfortable and ask him to stop. You could say something like, “I’m so glad you appreciate my interest in art, but I feel a little uncomfortable when you talk about how I’m an expert in front of the other staff members who have been here much longer. Nobody has said anything to me about this, but I’m concerned that they will feel that I’m being treated differently. Could I ask you not to talk about that in front of them?”

  126. Doom and gloom*

    It was basically the end of the phone interview. The interviewers and I were saying our thank yous for the interview, but before we officially said our goodbyes I ACCIDENTALLY ENDED THE CALL AND CUT OFF AN INTERVIEWER.

    Am I doomed? Should I ask the recruiter for their emails and apologize?

    2. lopsided*

      More helpfully, write the thank you note and offer a quick apology right there! Thanks so much and I’m so sorry if my phone cut off our call before we could say goodbye. I really did enjoy our conversation because of X and Y.

  127. Lalaith*

    Hokay, this is going to be a long one. Basically: are recruiters usually this pushy/hard-salesy, or is this company as egregious as I think? Because none of the other ones I’ve worked with have seemed this bad, although none of the others have come through with offers either, so I don’t know how they’d behave if they did.

    This guy kind of put me off from the start. He was very pushy and always wanted to get me on the phone. I don’t like talking on the phone to begin with, and I realize that that is fueling this in part. But throughout this experience, no one at this recruiting company will put anything in writing (except interview details). They’ll email “we have an update… call us!” You can’t just tell me what the update is in your email? I’m almost positive it’s because they want to be able to sales-pitch me, but I’ll get to that.

    Anyway, the recruiter sets up a phone interview with the hiring manager. On the day of the interview, he tries calling me a few times before the interview. I’ll take responsibility for this, I should have answered earlier, but it was always while I was doing something else and… well, excuses, I don’t like phone calls. In between calls that I know were from him, I get two calls from two separate numbers I don’t recognize. And I don’t answer calls from unrecognized numbers. Later I looked them up, and they were linked to his recruiting company. So all in all he tried calling me 6 times from 3 different numbers. When I did pick up, I was trying to prepare for the interview, and I was kind of annoyed and I think he caught that.

    The phone interview went well, and the next day I was participating in a day-long workshop, so I emailed the recruiter saying that I wouldn’t be able to talk on the phone because I was in an all-day meeting, but the interview went well and he should be hearing back that day. The hiring manager actually texted me directly, so I set up an in-person interview with him and then I guess he relayed that info to the recruiter, but I’m not sure if he mentioned that he’d talked to me directly. But then the recruiter tried calling me 4 more times over the course of the afternoon. I finally picked up the last one because my workshop was actually over by then. And he started asking me suspicious questions like I’d just been avoiding him all day. Like “you’re not working right now, who were you meeting with?” and “that was a very long meeting, what kind of meeting was it?” None of his business!! I couldn’t think of a polite way to tell him to mind his own beeswax, I wish I had.

    This Tuesday was the in-person interview, which was also fine. The thing is, I also had another interview that day, which I told the recruiter about. That… might have been a mistake. I just wanted to be transparent and honest, but of course he had a million questions about the other company and what they paid (I don’t actually know yet). And I want this other job more. It’s permanent (job 1 is contract for 3 months but probably will continue after that) and at a company I know and love. So of course recruiter is trying to pin me down to whether I’ll take his job over theirs, and I don’t want to commit to them until I hear from job 2.

    The next day (Wednesday) is when things get really weird/bad. Recruiter calls, and conferences in some other guy (his manager maybe, I don’t remember). Other guy tells me the feedback from the hiring folks has been great, and then proceeds to give me the HARD sell to try to get me to commit to them and drop job 2. I tell him that I would prefer a permanent job with benefits and PTO, so I want to see what job 2 says first. He acts like this is me declining their offer. I say no, I like job 1, they’re nice and I’d be happy with it – and by the way, is there an actual offer? No one has actually said that this is *an offer*, just that they like me. He says yes, but apparently it isn’t a firm offer because once there’s a firm offer he can’t negotiate any more (this part reminds me of the letter a few days ago where HR wanted OP to decline the first offer and get a new one). So I have a rate that we agreed on initially, but this guy is asking how much more would I want to make up for the fact that there are no employee benefits, and he can get me anything, just tell him what I want that would get me to commit (ok, give me a million bucks, I think but don’t say). Then he starts negging on company 2. Tells me that company 1 is a Fortune 500 company (I don’t think they are), wouldn’t that look better on my resume than company 2 (which is an independent retailer)? All of this turns me off SO MUCH. Finally I tell him I need to talk it over with my husband and I’ll call him back the next day. And he even makes me commit to a time and says he’ll put it on his calendar. Ugh. I have no desire to speak to him ever again.

    So now I pretty much refuse to talk to them by phone until I hear back from company 2. I don’t want to be browbeaten by their sales pitches any more. I emailed the original recruiter to ask for a day or two more to think about it. He looped in yet another manager-type person, who is also trying to get me to call him. They said I could have some time, but obviously I do need to get back to them soon. I’ve tried emailing and calling company 2 but haven’t gotten any response. I wish I was in the position to kick these recruiters to the curb and tell the actual hiring company (who all seem to be lovely btw) that they turned me off, but the unfortunate fact is that I will need this job if I don’t get job 2. Ugh! And if I do end up taking it, I’m not going to feel good about it, and I really want to :-/

    1. lopsided*

      Screw that guy! He wants his placement and he’ll do anything to get it and HE SUCKS. You are doing the right thing to not talk to him, and you might even want to let Company A know of his arseholer-y even if/when you take the job. If they are reasonable, they will be horrified.

  128. The New Wanderer*

    I’m currently unemployed and have been actively job hunting for 9 months now. Got one offer early on that I declined (that was probably the right call, I think I’d have already been job hunting again while at that job), have gotten to final interview stage twice where I was really optimistic, but no offer. I’m still being somewhat selective in my applications but have widened my scope a lot, and mostly get dead air. No recruiters have shown interest in me despite my publicly posted resume on indeed and setting LinkedIn to “actively looking,” possibly because I cannot relocate to where the great-fit jobs are.

    Husband started looking casually about two months ago, and will be starting his new job in two weeks. I’m really pleased for him since he hasn’t been happy with his current job in a while. It just underscores what a different job market there is for different fields, especially in our location.

  129. writelhd*

    This has been discussed in some letters before, but I’m curious about the workplace culture of others. How much detail do people go into at your work when they’re out sick?

    I notice here most people are pretty open and matter-of-fact about medical related absences. We aren’t *graphic*, just generally specific. “I’m out sick, it’s stomach flu” instead of just “I’m out sick.” “Such and such director is in the hospital with a spider bite, he expects be back Thursday” instead of “such and such director is out sick til Thursday.” “So and So is having gall bladder surgery” instead of just “surgery.” I don’t generally mind it except for when my issues veer into gynecological sort of territory, as they have lately, and then I’d rather be vague, yet vagueness is so unusual that it becomes more conspicuous than being matter-of-fact does. I think some of our culture may be due to the fact that a few years ago a very much loved coworker died in the hospital after just being out for a couple of days. He had just told us he had pneumonia but it turned out it was stage 4 lung cancer. Which he totally had a right to withhold, but we were all very sad to lose him. After that, I think we like the assurance that people are OK.

    1. SoSo*

      I would say that our’s is medium level detail. There are times for more specific details (my director’s father is in very bad health and she often has to leave on short notice, and we’re all aware of the situation) but most of the time it’s “I have a migraine so I’ll be taking this morning off” to “Have a bit of a stomach bug, I’ll be WFH today.” It also helps us for continued absences… I used to have 2x/week PT appointments for 6 months that I had to adjust my hours for and leave early, and my team knew the details so they were pretty understanding. I think it would have been different just to say it was a standing appointment without any context.

      1. CM*

        Same here. I don’t think it would raise an eyebrow if somebody just said they were sick or had a medical appointment without details, but people tend to share a bit more of their personal lives so it’s more common to have the “stomach bug” level of detail.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I had an employee tell me he “had it coming out both ends” and would be staying home. No. Thank. You. How about “not feeling well; I’ll be staying home today.”

    3. OtterB*

      Our culture is generally a “stomach bug” or “WFH so I don’t cough all over everyone” culture but no more detail than that. Sometimes it’s “minor medical procedure” with no more detail, and that’s fine too.

      1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

        Same. I’m an elementary school teacher, so when folks are out sick from work, it’s usually due to something going around.

    4. Someone else*

      My experience with this is it’s often less about the workplace’s culture. Some people are oversharers and they always are. I’ve seen them everywhere I’ve worked. (Often I think because they feel like they need to justify the time). Most are always very brief “I’m not feeling well” or “I’m sick” and that’s it. Some fall somewhere in between “I have a cold” or “I’ll be out today, migraine”. But, in my experience at least, I haven’t seen anything that seemed to be specifically about “in this office we give X level of detail and that office does Y”. It’s always a range, with most colleagues landing on the less-specific end of things, with a few exceptions for if someone will be out an extended time in which case they might elaborate, but still not much.

  130. SoSo*

    Applied for a position on Tuesday, got called back yesterday, and just completed the phone interview. I was a bit surprised about one question- the HR manager asked if I expected a counter offer from my current position if I were to make it to the hiring stage. I was honest and told her that no one knew I was job searching and that there was a good possibility for a counter offer (I’m happy in my current job, it’s just a long commute and contractor status unfortunately), but is that normal? I’ve never heard it asked before.

    1. CM*

      I haven’t heard that before. I think that’s a weird question. Maybe they are trying to sniff out people who are only applying to try to get a counter from their current job? But it seems unlikely that somebody would enthusiastically reply, “You bet, and I’ll use your offer to negotiate a better salary at my current company!”

      1. SoSo*

        Right? I thought maybe it was something along those lines. Or are they trying to weed someone out who is a poor performer and knows they’re going to get fired? “Nope, CurrentJob doesn’t want me any more.”

    2. Leave it to Beaver*

      I’ve been asked that before. I feel it’s a way to gauge your motivations for leaving. If it’s money related, then a counteroffer from your current company would influence your decision making. Whenever I’ve looked for a new job, it’s because I was no longer happy working for my employer, so I would always tell them — a counter offer was possible, but that I would be unlikely to accept it.

      1. SoSo*

        Good to know! She did ask (right before this question) why I was looking to leave my current job, but my answers lined up so hopefully I get a call back soon!

    3. Epsilon Delta*

      I got asked that too recently! And it threw me because I was not expecting it! After all the horror stories I’ve read here no way would I accept a counter offer so I kind of reeled around in horror and stuttered something along the lines of “good god no.”

  131. Mammal*

    I had a coworker recently whose boss announced her pregnancy on her behalf, several weeks earlier than she wanted to. I don’t even have a question, I just want to go ARGH about it.

    The coworker in question is going to be a first-time mom, is expecting twins, and HATES attention. It was a really rough day for her.

    ARGH.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Oh, that’s bad. I am so sorry for your coworker. (Not about the babies, of course, that’s exciting and I wish her all the best!)

      1. Mammal*

        She was very surprised to learn she was having twins, but is very excited to be a mom. She’s great, and I’m so excited for her!

    2. Thlayli*

      that’s awful. I met a woman once who was a teacher. Her principal announced her pregnancy to another teacher in front of kids. So obviously it was all over the school within the day.

      Then she had a miscarriage.

      I am so angry on your coworkers behalf.

  132. A Reader*

    I need a little bit of help with phone interviews, and any advice will be appreciated!

    I just can’t seem to get past the phone screen portion, and it’s driving me crazy. I make sure to smile when I am on the phone, I don’t eat or drink water during the call, and I also have my materials within reach so I can answer specific questions regarding my experience, etc. However, I have noticed that my interview process comes to a stop with an organization as soon as I do a phone interview.

    Does anyone have any tips for acing the phone screen? Thank you in advance!

    1. notfunny.*

      Do you feel like you’re connecting with the recruiter? Are you able to clearly and concisely answer their questions? My impression is that a phone screen is designed to make sure that you’re a real, articulate person who is a good fit to bring in but others likely have more expertise on this topic.

      1. A Reader*

        I think I do connect with the recruiter or interviewer, but it’s so hard to tell since I’m not in the room with them! I keep looking for tips on phone interviews, and I keep finding advice that is along the lines of “Take the interview in a quiet room” (of course) and “Don’t eat while you’re on the phone.” That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t help if I am already covering the basics.

        Are there any phrases I should be including when talking to the interviewer?

        1. Ali G*

          How do you feel you convey enthusiasm for the position? It can be hard over the phone!
          Have you tried standing up and/or using a mirror to act like you are talking directly to someone?

    2. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      I pretend I am in a live interview – I dress up, wear the shoes, have the cv and papers / folder like I was in person. And I set it up the place (clean up the clutter, wipe down the desk, shoo away the pooch and off spring. It sounds dorky but it really helps me avoid accidentally flipping into more jargon or slang type talking. If I am in jeans or work out clothes I totally bomb a phone interview.

      1. A Reader*

        I have tried the “dressing up even though no one can see me” trick, too. That seems to help. I have noticed I sit up a bit straighter than when I am wearing yoga pants and an old T-shirt.

    3. Trixie*

      I will often jot down each question they ask. Helps me keep my answers focused on the question/topic.

  133. Elizabeth West*

    *sigh*
    It’s rejection week, apparently. Job rejections. Book rejections. At least I’m spared romantic ones; there’s no one around to do that!

    I have a hair appointment next Friday–gotta keep the locks looking good for interviews. And I got a 20% off coupon from the spa to get me back in the door so I’ve booked a Swedish aromatherapy massage and foot scrub for Monday. I need pampering. I need it BAD.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I’m so sorry about the rejections. I hope you enjoy your spa day. BTW, your hair is gorgeous!

  134. sunny*

    Hello Fellow professionals,

    I am undergoing rather trying time in my professional sphere. In my mid thirties, I have been working for almost 12 years now(Fiance and Accounting roles). Last year I lost my job due to my poor performance. I had been in this organisation for the last 4.5 years prior to my resignation in Oct’17 but things started to go downhill from 2016 itself owing to some howlers on my part. I got into a mid size firm in Nov ’17. Once again my job is in peril and I will be forced to quit in few days from now, again due to performance issues. I worked here for exactly 6.5 months. The burning question, should I show this 6.5 months on my resume or skip it. If not how should I answer my next prospective employer. If yes, then how should I tackle the inevitable question.

    1. Graciosa*

      The key to this will be something you left out – what were the problems with your performance and how will you avoid them in the future?

      I’m open to hiring someone who made mistakes (I certainly have!) and learned from them – although admittedly not nearly as open when the problem was an integrity issue rather than a mistake.

      I’m open to hiring people with the self awareness to realize that they were in the wrong job (or wrong environment) and make a conscious decision to change that in the future.

      I’m not interested in acquiring a problem employee who doesn’t learn from their mistakes – or isn’t quite sure why things never work out – or who blames anyone or everyone else.

      I can’t tell which category you might be in without more information, but you need to convince the hiring manager that you’re a good risk for the job.

      Your resume should be as strong as possible to get you an interview (not sure if a six month gap is better or worse than six months at this job you’re about to leave in the full context of your resume, but that’s the test).

      In an interview, your answers to questions should convince the interviewer you’re a good candidate for that job – but again, it’s hard to be more specific without a bit more detail about what your performance issues were and what you (hopefully) learned.

      Good luck!

      1. Washi*

        Agreed. I almost think that a 6 month gap would be better than having to talk about being fired from two jobs in a row, unless one of the firings is truly 100% not your fault (job changed substantially and required skills you don’t have, or something like that.) Curious what others think!

    3. Boredatwork*

      Sunny,

      I know this isn’t answering your question – but have you been given any feedback about the performance issues? The fact that the mid-tier firm wants to cut their losses so quickly makes me think that you’re applying for positions outside the scope of your actual skill set.

      If it were me, I’d apply to industry gigs in the “senior” job title. Leave the short stint on there and play it up as more of a culture fit/mutual decision. Also, emphasize how much happier you are preparing than reviewing/managing. Drag out quitting as long as humanely possible, ask for a PIP, tell them how much you LOOOOVE the firm, bleh, bleh. Accept a demotion if necessary.

    4. RedinSC*

      HI Sunny, Re: the 6.5 month job…if you got some good experience from it, other than what you already knew, I’d list it, but prepare to say something like “they were moving in a different direction” or something like that. If no relevant, new experience I might leave it off.

      But I guess my main thought is, are you sabotaging yourself? And if so, what are you doing about that? Are you applying for, and getting jobs you’re not qualified for, or you are qualified, but then messing up? Maybe a session or two with a counselor could help figure out why you’re facing this again. Good luck with the search.

  135. Lynne879*

    Two weeks ago I had a phone interview for a job that seemed like a really good fit for me & the interviewer (the person who would be my manager) said she would get back to me early next week to let me know if they wanted to see me for an in-person interview… and I’ve heard nothing since.

    I emailed the interviewer a week ago, saying I enjoyed our conversation & that I was still interested in an in-person interview & she never emailed me back.

    I mean, if I was rejected that’s fine, but don’t ghost me and leave me hanging :( Why is it so hard to just email me to let me know they I’ve been rejected?

    1. A Reader*

      I am job searching and I hate when I am ghosted, too! It is so rude. I would just try to put it out of your mind and move on other opportunities. I know it’s easier said than done, but it will help you in the long run. Good luck!

    2. Kathleen_A*

      Well, although you may have been rejected, it’s actually very likely that you haven’t been rejected yet. And both replying and not replying to a thank you are both actually quite common. There is something a little awkward – just a little – about replying to a thank-you note since you don’t want to get into a situation where you’re thanking someone for their thank-you note. :-) So she may feel that until she has actual news for you, it would be better not to reply – or she may have intended to reply but then just forgot. So you really can’t tell much about the situation based on this.

      Good luck in your job search!

  136. Teapot librarian*

    Oh, my Hoarder. I accidentally called him a hoarder on Tuesday. (Actually I didn’t; I said his office was a “hoarder’s paradise,” but of course I still shouldn’t have done it!) I went to apologize and he wouldn’t listen. Fair enough, I suppose. I had definitely spoken intemperately. Still. It came up because we had workers in the office last week who needed to move all the stuff in HE’s office, and they weren’t able to put it all back where they found it because, well, there’s too much stuff there.
    So I mentioned to HE when I was telling him this that there were some boxes of what looked like trash, and could he confirm that it was trash and throw it away. No, it isn’t trash. There’s confidential material in it. Okay, I get that, but could he separate the confidential material from the rest of the trash and throw that trash away so there’s less in his office? Or could he at a minimum clearly label those boxes “to be shredded”? No, “it’s my office and what’s in my office shouldn’t matter to you.” This is the point at which I spoke harshly.
    I have now documented in an email to him why the contents and condition of his office affect all of us, and given him some next steps. So we’ll see what happens.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Oh, it’s pretty ridiculous. But this last bit of documentation I feel is what is going to let me act. I gave him three clear assignments with clear deliverables and clear deadlines, and a clear statement that this work is not going to excuse failure to meet two specific other deadlines. And it isn’t like the deliverable is “clean your office.” It’s “justify this one set of boxes [newspapers from 2006] or throw them out” and “I am giving one of your projects to our new employee; write instructions so that she can keep going on the same path as you have been taking.” I am not confident that he will actually do these things, but if he doesn’t, then I’m in a better position to deal with him.

    2. Leave a Comment at the Tone*

      Boxes of materials reminds me – once I worked at a company where one of the office dwellers kept every contract, every issue of every research journal and tons of books, and wanted them kept in firesafe filing cabinets. Turns out the stuff was so heavy, they had to move it all because it was causing a strain on the floor, weakening it to the point where they were afraid it would fall through.

    3. WellRed*

      His office is actually the company’s office and if coworkers have to move his crap it matters! Also, if he is an actual hoarder you can give him clear assignments until the cows come home, it won’t change anything.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Yep, that’s basically what I told him. His stuff is interfering with the rest of us.

      2. Observer*

        Actually, it will change things. Not his behavior, but TL’s ability to do something about it.

  137. Summer Fridays*

    Anyone here live in Portland OR?
    My husband and I are considering a move there, but are concerned with the job market. If everything goes to plan, I’ll transfer to my company’s satellite office there, and he’d maybe WFH, maybe find a new job. But the office is very small and very new, so if it folds, I’d ALSO need a new job….
    How’s the job market for front end developers and architects (buildings, not systems)?

  138. AeroEngineer*

    So I ran into a professor from my masters, and she said that she had run into one of my interviewers from around 7 months ago. The interviewer ended up talking to her for 30 minutes about how they “couldn’t get a good read on me” from the interview and were unsure how things would go (prof’s answer was that “duh, she is fresh out of university, you train her and fix that stuff”). Personally I thought the interview went great, and was really disappointed that I was rejected and the only response was to “get more experience”, which of course I didn’t have and they knew from my resume from the beginning.

    It came out later in my conversation with the professor that it might have been due to funding. Honestly if they had said that, I wouldn’t have been super second guessing myself the last months as much (they did have some good minor feedback as well, which I have taken to heart).

    Is there any way to fix this “not getting a good read on me” thing?

    I was probably as most myself as I could have been in an interview situation, and I am pretty disappointed because it would have been probably the only option to not completely uproot myself to find a new job (that is the current plan I am sticking to for sure now).

    1. AeroEngineer*

      Also on another related note, are interviews for companies which do more consulting (but are attached to a mother giant firm, so some is for the giant firm and some for external companies) different than normal interviews? Or are consulting interviews overall different?

      1. buttercup*

        I know big consulting firms do case interviews – not sure if it is the same for consulting divisions.

  139. More than a woman*

    How to I deal with a fairly abrupt colleague who can be rude and offhand? I’ve been in the same office as her for a couple of weeks and she says things like ‘ don’t be a plonker’ if I ask a simple. She’s like this with everyone but I find it really rude. Today I was talking to another member of staff about something that had happened. The member of staff left and soon after I walked out the office. I actually heard her say ‘She is doing my effing head in’ – about me.

    I was shocked but didn’t say that I heard her, but feel very hurt and upset as I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong. So my question is about me – how do I not let this sort of thing get to me?

  140. notfunny.*

    Any thoughts on Zip Recruiter? Maybe it’s just all of the ads on pod save america and lovett or leave it, but I’m tempted to try for this current job search but would love to hear if anyone has used it?? Thanks!

    1. RedinSC*

      I haven’t used it myself, but a friend of mine did and she did not have great results.

      So basically this is just hearsay at this point. But what could it hurt? Our local news radio station has a deal I think the url is ziprecruiter.com/kcbs for a free trial.

      1. Natalie*

        IIRC it’s free for jobseekers, you only need to pay if you’re a hiring company.

        1. RedinSC*

          AH, I read it as Notfunny was looking for an employee, not looking for a job. Then yeah, doesn’t hurt to put your resume there at all.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      I found it was pretty crap. Once I signed up I got spammed terribly with job listings. Not worth it, IMO. The jobs I saw were really not once I wanted either.

    3. KX*

      I don’t love it. Nothing I want to look at seems to be on there. The search results are terrible.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      I’ve tried it in a couple job searches. It is a pain in the ass to use (at least for my field), and it tries really hard to guess what your job is related to so it can send you more things to apply for. Since it doesn’t understand the environmental science field, I kept getting sent things that were wildly out of my field. And they spam you with them, a lot.

      It’s a waste of time, IMO. The thought is great, but the execution just isn’t there.

    5. rosie*

      I used it in my post-college job search (1 year ago), but found that the algorithm went funky on the jobs I was looking at. I was searching for gallery/museum positions, but it kept sending me retail jobs. I preferred Indeed, and that was how I found my current position.

    6. A Reader*

      I have had very mixed results with ZipRecruiter as a job-seeker. I have gotten results that were way out in left field, like positions for housekeeping, babysitting, and serving. It’s very strange, as I don’t have any experience in jobs like those!

      I have used Indeed, too, and I think the results are a bit more aligned with what I am looking for these days.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I found my current job on ZipRecruiter from across the country (I was looking to relocate). I’ve been there about 8 months and unfortunately it’s not a great fit so I’m casually looking again. On ZR again, I applied to a remote position that was in another state and now I get alerts all based in that state. I keep trying to change the alert to my current location but it’s being flaky about that. Overall, I’d say that it doesn’t hurt to give it a try. It’s free for you as the employee searching and if it doesn’t work out, just tell the app to stop sending alerts ( in my case it did stop when I said I’d found a job). I wouldn’t have heard about this job any other way and while I’m looking to leave, I learned a lot there in my short time.

  141. RedinSC*

    Howdy all, In general my team is pretty high functioning, but I have one employee who each year will start telling others that X employee is my favorite. And then call that employee “teachers pet” or something like that. Every year my favorite is someone new. She never says this in front of me, and mostly I hear it as gossip from people not on my team so it’s not like my team members are taking her seriously, or getting offended. How would you deal with this? So far I’m not saying anything since no one on my team is saying anything to me. But I think that might not be the best course of action here.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Is she saying it to more than one person? That is, if you confronted her with it, would she be able to trace it back? Because if she does say it to various people, I think you could ask her about it, e.g., “Dorothy, I’ve heard through the grapevine that you say X is my favorite, and that a year or two ago, you said that Y is my favorite. Can you explain what’s going on here?”

      1. RedinSC*

        I only hear from one person, so at least this time it probably could be traced back. Which is why so far, this time, I haven’t said anything. But I like that script and will keep it in my pocket if I hear anything more. Thanks!

        1. Kathleen_A*

          “Teachers pet,” if said seriously and not as a joke, is about as unprofessional as something can be that doesn’t include actual obscenities or rude hand gestures. So I hope you find an opportunity to squelch this, because it is not good that she’s saying this to people who have little or no opportunity to judge for themselves.

  142. Grayson*

    After confirming with the recruiter that the position was still open, I applied for an internal posting at my company last Friday. On a separate phone call with a different HR recruiter, she let me know that my company recommends a specific process (which I missed)

    1. Apply online via internal system.
    2. Upload your resume and a “qualifications” document describing how your experience/skills map to the basic & additional qualifications; include the requisition number & title.
    3. After you apply online, send an email—include your resume & the “qualifications” document—to the hiring manager & recruiter; cc your career manager. Subject line: Internal Candidate, YOUR NAME, for req # 1234567, Puppy Snuggler.
    5. No response after a few days? A sample message for following up is included below.

    Here’s the follow up:

    “Dear XXX,

    I recently submitted my online application for your [INSERT REQ TITLE/NUMBER]. For your convenience, I’m including a copy of my resume and a qualifications document describing how I meet the requirements of the position. I’m available at your convenience to discuss my qualifications and look forward to hearing from you.”

    WHAT THE FRAKKING FRAK IS THIS TONE DEAF PROCESS?!

    1. CM*

      This doesn’t sound that bad? If your company has multiple HR recruiters who you have to talk to for an internal position, it must be pretty large, so I’d expect some bureaucracy, no?

      1. Grayson*

        My problem is sending the resume and qualifications document 3 times for the same position to the same recruiter and hiring manager. Once expressing interest, once when applying and once in a follow up is just excessive.

  143. Teapot librarian*

    Second post about my Hoarder Employee because I had a second issue with him that I need to vent about. You won’t remember, but I think I’ve posted before about his weird spreadsheet habits where if he has a block of text, he’ll break it up into multiple cells. It’s important enough to him to continue to do this, that he literally doubles his work by typing into his spreadsheet, then copying into my preferred (sortable!) format. I’m sure information is getting lost, but that’s a separate issue. Anyway, he does the exact opposite thing with tables in Word. That is, what ought to be many distinct rows in the table, he includes all in one very long row, with paragraph breaks to move text down to line up with contents of the other columns. I asked him to reformat the table so that each type of teapot was in its own row; he sent the document back with 14 pages of blank rows at the end of the document but all the content still in one row. (He also, instead of accepting the changes that I made in the document, manually made the edits in his version of the document, meaning that he missed all of the extraneous paragraph breaks that I had deleted. He also introduced new typos in the process.
    No wonder he never finishes anything; he is too busy working inefficiently. And no wonder I never finish anything; I spend half my time dealing with him being inefficient and intransigent.

    1. LCL*

      Using Excel for data is relatively easy and intuitive. Using word tables, well, let’s just say sometimes the help desk couldn’t help me either, with a relatively simple request. You may have to actually show him step by step how to do tables in word. And yes, I have been following your saga and realize he is the problem.

    2. Mammal*

      Is he breaking the information into multiple cells so it can all be viewed at once? Excel has a text-wrapping feature so the cell expands to show everything in it, rather than cutting off everything that doesn’t fit.

      That said…I doubt you could teach this dude a new function and actually get him to use it. Good luck.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Oh, I’ve shown him the text-wrapping function. I’ve also shown him how to expand a cell when the cell height is wonky and doesn’t show everything. Sigh.

        1. Mammal*

          I had a former coworker (who was 26! 26!!!!) who would type “www.google.com” in the search bar, bring up Google’s homepage, and do her search from there.

          You can lead a horse to water, explain verbally how to access the water, demonstrate the best drinking technique, and provide drinking-related resources, but you just can’t make the dang thing drink.

          1. Seriously?*

            I’ve started doing that because for some reason my work computer requires it. It can take a bit to readjust when I switch to my home computer.

    3. Seriously?*

      Does he really know how to use Word? This sounds more like a skill gap than a preference. Could you have him take a Word and Excel tutorial?

      1. Teapot librarian*

        In my final response to him last night I suggested that if he wanted a refresher in how to use Word, I could make sure that he could take a class, and I required him to take a class in Excel, which he did in January.

  144. Patchedup*

    I’m moving into a new career and tailored my resume to reflect that. I just realized while preparing for an interview that one of the jobs I took off my resume is a reference. Due to circumstances outside of my control (the boss died, and a volunteer org refuses to give references) my most relevant two sources of reference are a no go, so I’m scraping the barrel, slightly. Would it look really weird to use a reference from a job not on my resume?

      1. irene adler*

        I disagree. You could explain that you tailored the resume to only include the jobs most relevant to the position you applied for. Hence, you left off a position.
        Resumes don’t have to include your entire work history. It’s an advertisement, in a way, of your skills, abilities and experience designed to garner interest from an employer.

  145. Gift-giver (hopefully)*

    So, for the next six months, I’m going to have to take a day off every other week for doctor’s appointments in $BigCity three hours away. I have a butt-in-seat type of job – think tech support mixed with receptionist duties – and my coworkers are going to have to cover for me during this time. My boss is also working with me so I can work four 10-hour days those weeks instead of taking time off.

    I’d like to do something nice for them to show how much I appreciate them – I’m not an emotionally demonstrative person at all so I’m afraid I’m not coming across as properly thankful, plus it just seems like a nice thing to do. Does anyone have any ideas for something I can do and when? Baked goods? Gift cards?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      A hand-written thank-you card would be lovely. Baked good and gift cards not needed.
      Then again, are baked goods ever wrong? (my answer: no)
      But I’d skip the gift cards…it seems more crass. Too much. They are your coworkers and everyone is supposed to cover for everyone. It seems more like payment or overburdening the gift card receiver.

      1. LovecraftInDC*

        Also, it’s worth remembering that you’re probably covering for other people as well with your 10-hour days. We have (slightly) staggered shifts in my tech supportish job, and the guy who comes in at 7 and leaves at 3:30 is just as appreciative of me doing my 10-6:30 shift as I am of him doing his.

    2. Someone Else Needs The Wood*

      Baked goods go a long way or buying lunch. Food is always appreciative.

    3. Observer*

      A nice card that can be put up where people can see it.

      Lunch. Bagels with spreads in the break room. A nice box / dish of candies and chocolates or a nice fruit platter. Cupcakes or donuts. Those are all a nice way of saying thanks. But, no gift cards.

  146. Emily*

    I have a funny little issue that is no big deal, but I’d like to improve on it.

    My problem is this:

    Every Wednesday, without fail, I don’t feel like doing any work. I end up spending more than half my time at work surfing the internet, reading articles, scrolling Instagram, etc., because I just REALLY don’t wanna work.

    As I said, it isn’t a big problem — partly because I don’t really have enough work (and yes, I have recently asked for more work. They’ve given me some easy projects, but nothing particularly engaging/substantial/challenging). And I think part of it is because, often, I have Friday deadlines for stuff, so on Wednesdays, there’s a sense I have plenty of time — so I procrastinate and get away with it.

    My question: Does anyone else have a similar issue? If so, how do you handle it?

    BTW, I will add that I get 8 hours of sleep every night, exercise often, and eat a healthy diet. I don’t think it’s anything physical.

    1. Confused in the Midwest*

      I had a similar issue, but with the 2pm doldrums. I’ve started taking a 15-25 minute walk every day at 2pm, which gets me away from the internet before I waste half a day on it. Not sure if that would work for you, since an 8-hour walk would raise eyebrows.

      Do you have any long-term/creative work that you could do that day? When I can’t concentrate on the day-to-day stuff I try to do extra training, update internal wikis or make long-term plans.

    2. Marketing Guru*

      I have this exact same problem! I think the core of it is that I tend to disengage when I don’t feel challenged. I would recommend setting goals for yourself: “i will work for two hours uninterrupted” and throw your phone in your drawer, and then ‘reward’ yourself in some way. (learning how to be more self disciplined with positive affirmation, basically)

      1. Emily*

        I think you’ve hit the nail on the head — I’m not challenged enough, so I disengage.

        Thanks for the suggestion, it’s a good one.

    3. The Person from the Resume*

      I feel you, but for me it’s Fridays especially the afternoons. Lots of people already out. usually not meetings. I’m ready for the weekend to get started. Wednesday is a bit more unusual choice, but you’ve diagnosed the cause.

    4. BuffaLove*

      I’m similar – at my job, stuff tends to heat up as the week goes by, so Mondays and Tuesdays can be dreadfully slow unless I have anything left over for the week before. Of course there is always SOMETHING I could be doing, but it’s hard to get momentum going when it’s not enough.

      Maybe I’m just a terrible employee, but I think it’s okay – if you work hard the rest of the week, get things done and done well, and are asking for more work, I think you’ve checked all the boxes and don’t need to feel guilty about your slow Wednesdays.

  147. Unemployed & Inexperienced*

    What’s the trick to getting a seasonal retail job? Not interested in food. I’m not shooting for the $11/positions, just the $7.25 because I feel that’s in line with my experience. I don’t have recent work experience (about 5 months cashiering a few years ago) and I know that works against me (I was active in hs leadership positions but that’s about it). I’m an incoming college sophomore, currently just looking for temporary summer thing before I head back to campus. I’ve been writing what I think are great cover letters, but as best as I can tell no one that has interviewed me has glanced at anything but the form application, which isn’t shocking, but it’s the only shot I have, I think.
    I almost had experience at a local law firm (I intend to go to law school), but I worked a few days, sent in my time sheet and was ghosted, so I just took that back off..
    I also live in an area with limited retail options and a bunch of college/high school kids that are here year round and can stay for more than a few months.
    Does anyone have any good tips for standing out on merit, when you seemingly have none on paper?

    1. Nanc*

      What about a local/seasonal thing like Parks and Rec (they usually have a ton of summer/day camp activities for kids), hotels/motels, tourist spots with gift shops, museums, outdoor equipment rental places, etc.? Does your area have a county fair? They’re probably hiring–it may only be a week or so but it’s something. What about uhaul/storage/moving companies? Summer might be a busy season for them and they might need temporary help. Senior centers/assisted living. They made need clerk folks or dining room staff coverage for folks on vacation. They are looking for limited duration anyway or they may be looking to replace a student who went home for the summer or is taking summer school or something. Dog walking? Movie theaters? You’ll be serving snack bar food but at least the rush is predictable. Cleaning services? Temp agencies? You never know!

      1. Unemployed & Inexperienced*

        We’re pretty small & industrial, but some of these may be viable. I haven’t seen any openings on the job boards, but I’ll try some of the websites. Thanks!

        1. LovecraftInDC*

          If it’s industrial, you might want to check with some of the industry. I did field work every summer in college. Sucked in some ways (away from friends for long period of time, living out of a tent occasionally), but it also paid like $100+ a day and my expenses were all covered, so I basically pocketed all of that.

    2. Anonandon*

      Temp agencies might be able to find you some office work covering for people on vacation.

    3. BlueWolf*

      I guess it depends on what type of experience you’re looking for. I worked at an amusement park for a couple of summers in college, and they mostly hired high school/college age people. You had to work a lot of hours, but it was fun sometimes. I don’t know if you have anything like that near you.

      1. Unemployed & Inexperienced*

        Unfortunately the closest amusement park is 3 hours away, and I’m not sure that would make for a good commute. I’m certainly not opposed to working a ridiculous amount of hours if I could find something, though!

  148. VermiciousKnit*

    Not my work, but the place I volunteer has a small handful of mansplainers that are a giant PITA. Normally this is an annoyance, but we just moved to a new location and the mansplainers keep man-jacking projects assigned to me and to other women. The one who just took over my project then delayed it by over a week by hemming and hawing vs. ordering what I’d planned, then ended up ordering what I planned, try to implement it without checking on how I’d planned to do it and then was all snarky at me when it didn’t work. I pointed out that I’d made a totally different plan and had suggested it to him when he took it over, and he had the nerve to ask me if I was “willing to take this on as a project” in response.

    HOW do you deal with mansplainers??? In this case this person is on the board of directors and I’m just a volunteer, though I do through my activities function as a decent source of revenue for the org. I can’t just tell him off but it’s a PROBLEM.

    1. Temperance*

      I would stop volunteering there, personally. If you like what you’re doing, and the org, can you talk to your volunteer coordinator about what’s happening?

      There are plenty of orgs not run by mansplaining sexist douches.

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        If I stopped volunteering there I’d have to entirely stop doing my side business and give up my art form I adore because it’s a niche and there’s not another place to do it. I more need ways to keep myself sane, strategies to get bossy people to listen, and maybe make the mansplainers a lil more aware of what they’re doing, because they’re not douches on the whole

        1. Temperance*

          In that case, talk to the volunteer coordinator. It doesn’t sound like you’re getting to do the side business/art stuff much here, but if it’s important to you, you need to get someone at the org on your side.

          1. VermiciousKnit*

            There isn’t a volunteer coordinator. It’s not like an organization where we as volunteers go out and do stuff for other people; it’s an org that provides a space for practitioners of an arts form and in return we volunteer to keep it running so we don’t have to pay out the nose for it.

    2. CM*

      I agree with Temperance, this sounds like too much aggravation for a volunteer position!

      It seems like you have a lot of leverage here. Is there somebody you could talk to who would be in a position to talk to the board about this? Would you and the other women who are experiencing this behavior be able to get together and push back as a group?

      Also, I think it’s clear from your explanation what is going on — but if you are trying to push back it would help to have a concrete request that doesn’t use the word “mansplaining,” which is easy for people to dismiss. For example, you could describe what happened in your project and then request that you be given the authority to complete your plans without supervision by these board members. (That’s probably not the right request, but you can figure out if there’s something that you can ask for that sounds reasonable and would help.) The point is to focus on the impact to the organization and then ask for a solution that is objectively measurable and not based on personality or interactions. That way if it’s not working, you can say, “We agreed that we would do X” without having to argue about whether X is really happening.

    3. Anonandon*

      Maybe push back at the start. Tell them you already have a project plan that just needs initiation, but thanks for offering, and you will contact them if you need help. If he wants to insist, then have him say that clearly. Because otherwise mansplainers thinks they are HELPING you, and that any problems are because you didn’t step up in the first place.

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        I did that. There was a long email chain where I noted that I’d already been asked to do this project, the progress I’d made and what I’d planned to do. No one acknowledged it. Later on after several more emails, I pointed said “should I proceed with my plan or not? I’d appreciate an actual answer to my questions so I can either get this done ASAP or have the board do it instead.” It was responded to with “oh we aren’t ignoring you, we just talk a lot before deciding anything.” Instead of ever answering me, Mr. Mansplainer just went ahead and did a few other things and then ordered the supplies I’d suggested without ever checking back in with me until it was already done.

  149. Confused in the Midwest*

    Is this… normal?

    I applied for a job last night following AAM’s advice about using an accomplishment-based resume and a conversational cover letter that I spent a couple of hours writing. The job portal was a bit of a pain because you had to register for an account, upload your resume, and then specify work experience/education in discrete fields. I was feeling a bit awkward about the fact that I guessed which day of the month I received my degrees on and then signed something swearing I hadn’t falsified anything. Then I had to consent to a drug test, which isn’t at all usual in my field.

    Then things got weird. I received an immediate response saying, “Thanks for your application. The next step of the process is a video interview.” I thought it was odd that they weren’t even screening applications before scheduling interviews, but this was not an interview with a real person. Instead, they want me to register for a second account in order to submit a video of myself answering a set of questions. There is also a 48 hour deadline for submitting the video, which they will allow me to “retake” once.

    Is that… a thing? I’ve done Skype interviews before, but I’ve never heard of something like this. I know AAM has talked about being able to reject 80% of applicants based on just their resume/cover letter and how annoying it is to receive videos, so this seems rather odd. At best it’s “creative” in an irritating way.

    1. Washi*

      That is definitely annoying and unusual. I’ve done the video thing before (which I don’t like regardless) but only a certain number of candidates made it to the next round to do that, it wasn’t everyone. This is super wasteful of candidates’ time, since I’m 100% that they won’t watch all the videos. I don’t know if it’s necessarily a red flag though – it could be a dumb HR idea and the team you would be working on would be fine.

      Whether you want to continue I guess depends on how long the video portion takes and how excited you are about the job.

    2. beanie beans*

      That sounds terrifying! Maybe they are trying to get a feel for people thinking they can judge them by looking at them.

      I can’t imagine having to answer questions for a video without a person on the other end. (I mean, both are nerve-wracking, but not having a human response seems much worse!)

    3. voluptuousfire*

      Oof, yes! Its not usual, but not uncommon. I ran into that a few years ago when I was job hunting and if I ran across having to do that, I usually didn’t bother with the application. I did end up doing it for one role and it was so awkward. I didn’t hear back.

    5. buttercup*

      I did this before for a non-profit and felt (I’m sure visibly) awkward the whole time. The nonprofit’s website explained that they believed this was the least biased way to interview because it asked the same questions to everyone. However, I know humans still judged the videos so idk how much less biased it was.

      1. buttercup*

        To answer your question, no it’s not normal, but not necessarily a scam either. It’s one of those weird, edgy HR innovations

      2. LovecraftInDC*

        It seems like if you were trying to avoid bias you’d let people type up their replies. You’re still going to be making judgements based on the person’s appearance, level of nervousness, etc.

  150. How to get help from boss in addressing the issues causing burnout?*

    I’ve complained (anonymously) in a couple of open threads about some things at work that are pushing me toward burnout. Now I’m wondering about how/whether to approach these issues with my boss. I’ve already mentioned them and gotten sympathetic responses (but not movement toward action).

    Two related issues:

    1) My division doesn’t have a strong culture of follow-through, which leaves me feeling like I have to manage everyone who touches one of my projects to make sure they actually do (and do correctly) the pieces they are responsible for. This ranges from simply not doing what they need to do (write something for a communications piece) to doing it sloppily (forgetting to invite some program participants to a program session). It feels like I have to do everything my self, check on every single thing on a daily/hourly/whatever the relevant time frame is basis, or, like, literally sit next to someone to watch them do a thing so I know it’s been done correctly. I need my boss’ (or his boss’, because my boss is a major contributor to this issue) help in deciding how to handle this.

    2) Some of my colleagues do a good job of drawing clear boundaries around their capacity and the kind of work they do and do not want to do. These folks have earned that right; they’re long-tenured and highly skilled and it makes sense to let them specialize. But the result is that we can’t always find folks to do the tasks that they don’t want to do. What should I do about that, when it affects my projects?

  151. Thany*

    I am not sure what to do in this situation. There is an all staff event coming up in August. Our state wide agency gives us the option to pick our roommate, be roomed with someone randomly, or have a solo room for an additional cost. I would prefer to pick my roommate, but everyone has seemed to have already paired off (I vaguely asked a couple people just to feel it out). The team I am on only consists of 3 people (both of them technically being my supervisors), which leaves me very isolated from the rest of the office as I don’t have a lot of interaction with everyone else. (I’ve only been here since November). I’m trying not to let my insecurities affect me, but I’m feeling like the last kid picked in dodgeball. Does anyone have suggestions on how to ask people if they are rooming with someone without sounding desperate? Should I bite the bullet and pay the additional cost? Help!

    1. CM*

      I am sure there are other people in the same boat! I wouldn’t worry about sounding desperate — you could openly say, “Hey, I’m asking everybody I know about rooming for the event in August! Do you know anybody who’s looking for a roommate?” I’m assuming that there are other people you know and would want to room with — otherwise, it seems like being randomly paired would be just as good.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I have absolutely done this very thing. My company doesn’t ordinarily make us have room with anyone when we travel, but twice when we went somewhere expensive (Hawaii), we were asked to find a roommate if possible. As it happened, all of the women I am particularly close to were either bringing family or had already found a roommate. So what I did was send out an email to a few other people I didn’t mind rooming with, saying something along the lines of “I don’t have a roommate for the trip. Do you know of anybody who’s looking for one?” You won’t sound desperate at all, Thany.

        1. Thany*

          Thanks CM and Kathleen for answering! Your answers helped me realize I’m definitely letting my insecurity get the better of me. I just need to be casual about it. It also helps to know others have been in the same situation. Thanks again!

  152. Detective Rosa Diaz*

    I was invited to take a test for library position with a community college. It is a government job, and I am unsure what to expect. Is anyone familiar and know what type of material will be on the test?

    1. Antilles*

      Upfront Caveat: I’m not in libraries, nor academia/community colleges, so take with as much skeptical salt as you’d like.
      As a general thing though, you usually want to ask for a couple details when they suggest a test as part of the application process. Because a “test” as part of the employment process could be all over the map. It could be a personality quiz to evaluate your type, it could be an ethics/morals quiz, it could be a very basic English/Math/History check to make sure you’ve got basic social literacy, it could be a library-specific quiz on the Dewey Decimal system, etc.
      Fortunately, with that much variety, you can easily get away with asking what the test includes. The most ideal is of course when they first bring it up, so it seems perfectly natural part of the conversation, but even now, you would probably be fine just asking for more details or a clarification about the test. Fair warning: Their answer will almost certainly include phrases like “oh, don’t be worried” or “it’s not a big deal” or “oh, it’s not really a pass/fail thing”, but it still is an important part of their interview process, so don’t let their casualness lull you into not taking it seriously.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Is the government job part of the Civil Service? If it is than it is probably part of the Civil Service exam for your state. Some googling of that phrase and the state name should help.

    3. A Cataloger*

      It depends on the library and the position. In one library I worked tests included things like putting a couple of lists in alphabetic, numeric, or alphanumeric order, checking for typos, and other things that might relate to the job. For a cataloging position, I was asked a few theory questions and then asked to create a record for a book, for a management position I was asked to create a training plan for a new person in the department. But it’s really going to depend on the position you are applying for.

    4. VermiciousKnit*

      If the community college is part of a statewide system that does civil service testing, then the test will likely be over the basic knowledge needed to perform the role. I’ve never taken one with libraries, but other exams have included questions about word processing, 10-key, spreadsheets and databases, basic copy editing and vocabulary, HR tests that asked questions about insurance and payroll, and then more specific ones that asked about my knowledge of things like design software and the international building code.

      If it’s not a civil-service type test, then it could be absolutely anything.

  153. AlmostAcademic*

    Anyone have experience with chronic illness? Wondering about whether to disclose / not to disclose.

    I finally got my symptoms checked out (thanks for all of the posters who encouraged me to!) and it is looking like I have a chronic form of glandular fever, maybe even ME (although we have to wait on that for a bit, diagnosis-wise). My doctor said there isn’t a cure, and I just need to rest for however long it lasts. This has been going on for about 9 months – a year already though, so I’m not that hopeful.

    I just started grad school around that timeframe, and I don’t know if/what to tell my supervisor. She’s never seen me working well or to my full capacity, mostly because my brain has been in a fog and I’ve been trying to figure out what is going on. So I don’t have a lot of good (or bad, necessarily) will stored up, and she doesn’t know what I’m capable of from when I was healthy before / no reason to believe I would be better. I’m shooting for a really demanding R1 job, and next year is only going to get more busy in my program, so I’m really worried about having to write off my goals or having her write me off with this issue if I disclose. I’m also worried about her writing me off anyways, since I’ve been struggling so much (mostly due to symptoms). And I’m just scared that I’m not going to get better and not going to be able to achieve my dreams and what I’m going to school for.

    Any advice on how to handle this?

    1. Seriously?*

      Is your job though the school or separate? If it is though the school, then the first thing I would do is sign up for disability services. They generally have accommodations for students with disabilities that include transportation around campus, flexible schedule (so that you don’t get penalized for excessive absences in class) and form letters you can give your professors. They can also guide you in how to address it with your boss.

      If it is not though the school, then I think it depends on whether accommodations could help you perform better. If yes, then it is worth it to disclose. If not, then it is a judgment call of whether she will look on your performance better knowing why you are struggling or if she will keep you off the projects you want assuming you won’t be able to do them. Without knowing her it is impossible to say.

    2. AlmostAcademic*

      My job is through the school – my boss is also my mentor / PI, since we have a mentorship model. So, I’m employed working as a researcher on one of her personal studies, as well as mentored in my own research by her, and will eventually need her recommendation for the rest of my career. Unfortunately she’s pretty hard to read, so even after nearly a year working together I’m not sure which way she would lean.

      My department as a whole isn’t very disability-friendly, but I definitely think you’re right in that a conversation with disability services is the first move. I hadn’t even thought of that for myself, despite referring students there all the time. Thank you for your advice and input!

  154. Master Bean Counter*

    Okay today took a turn for the bizarre. First the water went out in our side of the office. I went to the other side of the office to find out a pipe had broken in the other bathroom. But nobody thought to come over and tell our side about it. We found out when the toilet wouldn’t flush. Lovely.
    When we found out I was actually waiting on my turn to go. So I go back over and talk to the plumber. They have already sent the helper to the store to get replacement parts. I decide I can’t wait this out and decide to drive to a gas station. As I’m pulling into the station I get a call. It’s an internal recruiter for a application I put in weeks ago. Lucky me that I didn’t have to walk out the door at the office to take the call. That never looks suspicious (sarcasm).
    Since things lined up so perfectly I bought lottery tickets before I returned to work.

    1. CM*

      I hope you win AND get the job… but at the very least, you got to go to the bathroom!

  155. Ejane*

    Thank god for open threads, I had something come up just now and I desperately need help.

    I’m temping at a hospital for $26 an hour. I’m very very good at my job; this position was posted as no chance of conversion, and I was offered a permanent position. I knew this would come with a pay cut, of course. I did hope it would be mitigated by the fact that my agency and the hospital have an agreement where the hospital doesn’t have to pay a conversion fee.

    I got the salary offer today: $20.50 an hour.

    That’s $10k less a year after taxes. That’s about $800 less a month, which is a brutal, brutal drop. I live in Seattle, so while salary has nothing to do with cost of living, it does mean that $800 less doesn’t mean no more Starbucks, it means barely affording the minimum payment on my credit cards and eating as cheaply as possible for the foreseeable future. I can’t lower my living expenses without trashing my credit.

    At the time (i.e. an hour ago) because it was an in-person conversation, I countered with $23, and I probably won’t hear back until next week.

    The intangibles for this position are incredible, but comparing the two, I could buy my own health care out of pocket and have money left over.

    This is also less than the national average for an admin assistant III position by a pretty good margin.

    I guess my question is, what am I missing? Is there anything I can do?

    1. CM*

      Would you be OK with $23?

      If not, I think you can still email back and say after thinking it over and doing some research, you’ve realized this is far below market and a substantial drop from what you’re currently making, so you would like to ask for $[insert number here] instead.

      If $23 is OK, then see what they come back with. Ultimately it’s about what you think you can accept and what your other options are. Is it possible for you to get a job with a salary closer to that national average? (And I’m guessing Seattle would have higher than average salaries — COL absolutely should have to do with salary!) Any idea what your coworkers are making?

      1. Ejane*

        Yeah, I can make $23 work. I don’t want to, I’d love to stay at $26 or $25, but I’m not insane. I expected $23-$24.
        They also gave me the pay range for the position, which was roughly $18.50-$27. I’m mildly miffed, under all this panicked fear, that they didn’t even offer me the halfway point.

        1. CM*

          Then I think you should either increase your ask, or at least hold firm at $23. If they come back with less, you can say, “I’m not willing to make this change for less than $23. This is right in the middle of the range you gave me, I have experience and a proven track record of doing this job, and according to my research it’s substantially below the average national salary of $28.” (But again, taking a firm position like this depends on a realistic look at your options.)

          1. Ejane*

            I think because I’m young (25) I’m terrified of looking cocky or delusional. (Also might have to do with conditioning as a woman in the workforce.) they wouldn’t retract the offer?

            1. Manders*

              Hey, fellow Seattleite! I’ve survived on less per hour in Seattle, BUT I could only do it because I was able to share a one-bedroom with my partner, and even then we were living pretty close to the bone. You should absolutely hold firm on what you’re asking for.

              In my personal experience, a lot of employers around here are not really thinking about how fast cost of living is increasing for renters. The medical field can be especially bad about this, since employers aren’t competing with tech companies for employees so they’re not really thinking about how tech workers are changing the local landscape. Keep asking for what you deserve and don’t accept an amount you can’t live on.

              1. Ejane*

                Thank you for the validation! I really really REALLY want this job. Walking away would be devastating.

                But I have to be able to live.

                1. Manders*

                  Yes, you do!

                  Not to scare you too much, but I was admin at a doctor’s office for a while (too long, to be honest) and I have a lot of youngish female friends who were admins at hospitals or private practices. This sort of lowballing on wages is very, very common. I do think it has a lot to do with management assuming young women are less likely to stand up for themselves and demand a reasonable wage.

                2. Treecat*

                  You do! And in my experience (I’m about 10 years older than you) a great job that you love really does not compensate for living in/near poverty. At all.

            2. Environmental Compliance*

              Do you want to work for someone that doesn’t show that they value you at what you’re worth? I don’t think normal companies would retract an offer because of a difference of $2-3ish an hour. You’re not asking for $45,000 more than their range. You’re asking to be compensated at a rate well within their range, which (I assume) lines up with your experience level. It’s not cocky or delusional to ask for that.

              FWIW – I’m mid/late twenties, and recently moved from gov’t to private sector. I was terrified to negotiate because I really wanted the job and didn’t want to either lowball myself or completely price myself out or look like a dumb young girl. I ended up with a 62% raise.

            3. Treecat*

              I mean, they might retract the offer, but I’m with CM that you should hold firm and not settle for less. The work is worth what the work is worth regardless of your age.

              I also live in Seattle (well, the Greater Seattle Area) and I know exactly how hard it would be for you to live on the lower salary. Yeah, as you said cost of living and salary aren’t necessarily related, but your employer knows how expensive it is to live in Seattle and it’s terribly arrogant of them to expect excellent employees to settle for less than the national average in one of the worst cost of living areas in the whole country. Earlier this year my employer lost an excellent employee to an organization in a different state for predominately salary reasons (she took a basically identical job, in a lower COL area, with FEWER job responsibilities, for ~$30,000 *more* per year. I don’t blame her! I envy her!).

              I don’t want to make assumptions on your mobility re: changing jobs, but if this place won’t offer you at least the $23/hr option, I would seriously council looking for work in a different part of the state/country. Sounds like you could earn more and have lower cost of living, which could be a significant improvement on your quality of life.

            4. Observer*

              What do you have to lose? From what you say, you really can’t afford to take it at any lower rate.

    2. H.C.*

      Does becoming perm give you benefits? Your employer may also be taking that into consideration when converting you from temp to a permanent position. They may also have lowballed you expecting that you’ll negotiate up.

      But I think you’re right to negotiate, and $23 is a reasonable ask. Good luck!

    3. blink14*

      Are there PTO and benefits included with this permanent position? I’m in higher ed, which is somewhat comparable, and my salary is about average for my position. My university makes a huge deal about our benefits being a large part of our compensation (which, to be fair, the sick time is way higher than normal in this industry and the insurance is very good). My company pays about $6k a year towards my insurance, I get 15 vacation days, 12 paid holidays, plus paid time off at the holiday break. Not including sick time, just my vacation and paid holidays alone comes out to about 6 weeks off total during the year.

      A comparable job for me recently came up at a higher ranking organization, the mid point on the pay grade was about $5,000 more than I make now, but the sick time was significantly less. I have a lot of doctor’s appointments and some chronic issues, so that sick time is invaluable to me. If you’re paid hourly and not getting any PTO time or benefits through the hospital, then I would definitely think they are including this in your offer.

    4. Khat Ke Liyanda Patasa*

      Okay, so you’re young and good at what you do. The hospital is paying an agency some amount, of which you are getting $26/hour?

      I know this is easy for me to say, but: I would hang tough and insist on salary+benefits equivalent to at least $26/hour. They wouldn’t be offering you a permanent gig unless you were good at the job, and simply cutting the agency out of the picture is going to save them some significant $$$s. Don’t be shy about bringing up the national average salary and the higher cost of living in your area.

      I think they’re low-balling you and, frankly, it makes me angry. They may insinuate that they can easily find someone to take the job for $20.50/hour, but in reality: I seriously doubt it. It sounds like they’ve been using this temp agency thing as a scheme to recruit a full-time employee. They can hire you now at $26/hour, or they can spend considerably more paying for N months of other temps through the agency – and I wonder how much time they waste with duds who can’t handle the job?

      Finally: I know it’s difficult, but when you’re young and good at your job, this is the time when you can afford to take a few risks. It gets a lot harder when you’re in your 40s and you’ve got a family and a mortgage and so forth.

      Good luck with this!

      1. Ejane*

        The kicker of it all?

        I went to them, and they said no. They couldn’t go past $21.

        My temp manager was shocked. I’m fucking devastated, frankly. Temping is exhausting, and going from being thrilled that someone finally wants to keep me to being told that they won’t meet me halfway is really hard.

        I guess I’ll see this assignment through and find another. I’m very tired of this.

        Sigh. at least I can rinsing

  156. hey, it's that girl!*

    I burned out at my last job and thus was fired. For the best, but how do I explain this during interviews, if asked? I was told instead of ‘fired’ say ‘let go’, but how do I explain why I was without making myself sound so negative?

    1. GarlicMicrowaver*

      “we agreed it was best that i part ways. while the initial shock took some time to wear off, the experience opened my mind to the fact that i had an opportunity to work on setting realistic expectations and developing time management skills when it came to my next career move. the truth was, i was passionate about my work- to a fault- and realized i allowed myself to become burnt out in the process. that is why it’s an important lesson learned to always assess the culture of a company. i truly believe happy employees produce the best results. that said, can you tell me a little about the company culture?”

      use ‘i’ statements and gently put it back on them.

    2. CM*

      I think the best you can do is explain what went wrong and how you will make sure it doesn’t happen again. You could say something like, “Honestly, I burned out because several people in my department left and I had to handle their workloads. As a result, I had to work long hours uncompensated and felt overwhelmed. In retrospect, I wish I had handled it differently by talking more openly with my supervisor and trying to identify a timeline for things to change. But instead I let it build to the point where I started to drop the ball and was fired. I learned that it’s important to communicate early on when I’m having issues, and if something like this ever happens again I’ll be better prepared to handle it.”

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would spend as little time explaining as possible and try to spin it to be the positive reason why the company you are interviewing for is a better fit for you.

      Them: “Why did you leave your last position?”
      You: “I was let go. I admit that I got burned out after working there for X years, but I have learned from this experience that I am more comfortable and work better in a (bigger/smaller) department with (less/more) feedback from management and (formal/informal) goals. I think I would be a great fit for your company because…”

      Do your research about their business and why you fit there better than you fit in your last position. Are they larger, more established, and formally structured so you always know what to expect and how to succeed in your role? Are they smaller, a start-up, more nimble so you may be given more autonomy and broader challenges without a formal performance evaluation procedure?

    4. OtterB*

      What CM said. You want to show that you’ve learned something and that it’s unlike to happen again. So, need to reach out sooner when you fall behind, or too much of task X burns you out and that’s why you’re focusing on looking for jobs in task Y like this one, or even perhaps (carefully, factual without being too negative) that your workload jumped because 2 coworkers left and weren’t replaced and you’re happy to put in extra time when needed but it wasn’t sustainable as a constant thing. Something truthful and neither excusing yourself nor beating up on yourself.

  157. KL*

    I moved back to my hometown about a year ago for a job that was a big step up for me in terms of title and responsibility. I like the job, but…I hate it here. I took the job in the first place because I didn’t think I had the experience yet to get this kind of job in the major city I left, and it was worth it for that. But now I desperately want to go back. I’ve told myself that I’m going to give it until the end of the calendar year before I start looking because I feel like I need more time at this level under my belt before I can get this kind of job in a bigger pond. So…how do I keep myself sane for the next seven months? I recently visited my old city and I haven’t been able to concentrate on anything this week.

    1. CM*

      Can you start pre-looking… making a list of companies you might want to work for in the city, neighborhoods you might want to live in, restaurants you want to try, etc.?

      And/or, are there any “lasts” that you can do in your hometown — knowing you’re going to leave soon and probably not live here again, one last visit to favorite places, easy day trips, hanging out with people who you won’t be able to spend a lot of time with once you move?

    2. That's Not My Name*

      If the city isn’t too far, you have your weekends free. You can always spend an overnight there without having to take time off, or (possibly) spend a ton like a vacation.
      Also, have you thought of a reverse commute? A lot of people are doing that now, where you live in the big city but commute to the burbs for work. I’d suggest that if you want to stay at this position longer for more experience, but ONLY IF you have the financial and transportation means, and the commute isn’t too ridiculous.

  158. Laura H*

    I fell at work on Saturday- good fall with no major injuries and pain was pretty par the course for this. How do I handle falling at work- more so how do I say that I don’t make a regular habit of falling on my face. I have cerebral palsy that affects all four of my limbs and use a walker.

    Employer is rightly concerned about it (and within reason so am I- as this makes three falls in three years and a few near misses that scared me) but it’s not a new thing- I’ve had a higher fall risk than my able-bodied peers since I could walk.

    Am I worrying too much?

    1. Anna Canuck*

      Is there anything about your environment or procedures that could reduce your fall risk? If there’s something that can be done by your or by your employer, suggest it. Accommodating a disability is part of having employees. Don’t be shy to discuss anything that can make you safer at work.

      Beyond that, exactly what you said – that you have a higher fall risk simply because of your condition, and you don’t blame your job for that – is a good way to address your employer’s concerns. It’s just a thing you live with because you must.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Three falls in three years? That’s only one a year. You’re doing better than me.
      Do the best you can to prevent by wearing non-slip shoes and using your walker. Otherwise maybe look into one of those little scooters, if it would work. It’s much harder to fall on your face from a sitting position.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      Are you falling at work because of something in the work environment (e.g. a trip hazard that might not be significant for someone without CP) or is it just that you happened to fall and it happened to be at work? I’m assuming that your job doesn’t have you doing something like climbing ladders or chasing toddlers.

    4. Temperance*

      I’m able-bodied, and a total klutz. I have serious falls (like down my stairs, or where i injure myself) roughly quarterly. Of course, I don’t have the same health issues that you do, which I imagine might make a fall more dangerous for you.

      I would chat with your doctor, and maybe HR to see if there’s something you could do to minimize the risk at work.

    5. Annie Mouse*

      I don’t know what sort of job you do but I know people with no known balance or movement problems fall over three times in half a shift. I would imagine 3 times in 3 years isn’t a worry unless it’s something repetitive that should have been resolved.

      Glad you weren’t hurt badly though when you fell.

    6. Laura H*

      Honestly, I think i just tripped over air.

      I work retail. And I was not going too fast or anything- one sec, I’m sure footed, the next- right arm’s out to catch me and I am horizontal!

      I’m thankfully ok. Was a bit sore and the pride was hurt but I’ll live.

  159. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Any social media peeps struggling with organic and paid reach/results on Facebook? Any advice? I work for a regional healthcare system and am lucky if my organic posts get 500 reach max and if my paid posts garner 3 conversions a month. Any insight would be appreciated and, ahem, I am actually waiting for a call-back from Facebook “support.” seems as though they got their wires crossed, being in Pacific Time.

    1. Marketing Guru*

      It’s so, so hard to get anyone from Facebook on the phone unless your page has a major following. I would offer this advice:
      a) remember it’s the summer time and social media engagement generally weakens in warmer months
      b) are you engaging with your community? liking, commenting, and sharing from your business page on other accounts? the algorithm appreciates an active participant
      c) video gets 6x the exposure as regular posts… try it out if you haven’t already
      d) some of your audience may become engaged but not follow your page – invite people who like your posts to like your page.

      hopefully this helps!

  160. GoingAnon*

    Question about a friend’s situation: Cheryl works on a small team (~4 people) that recently got a new manager. Change means adapting to a new boss’s quirks, but over cocktails she mentioned one that made me ask: Isn’t that kinda weird? TLDR: A manager using project management software to assign basically all work tasks (even really minor, everyday, non-project stuff), rather than directly chatting, emailing, or calling you. Weird? Or am I being ornery and old school?

    Longer Version: New Manager has started them using project management software. (I’d say “introduced” but I don’t get the sense there was much of a process of tutorial or buy-in that happened. It just started.) It’s useful, although an adjustment. The thing that seems odd to me is NM seems to be using the software to assign tasks, even really minor stuff, that goes way beyond assignments and responsibilities on major project work. An example would be getting a notification for something like: “You’ve been assigned a task: Put the weekly Teapot Update meeting on your calendar.” So, in addition to putting the meeting on the calendar (which these folks were already responsible about doing), they have to also go into this software and mark the task complete, update what % of the staff have completed it so far, etc. And there are no in-person or email conversations about any of it. It’s not that awful in the grand scheme, but it seems… weird?

    I guess what I keep thinking as I hear these stories is that it seems like NM might be avoiding actual conversations with team members about what they’re doing and why, and using the software to “manage” these people – and pretty much from the get-go. I always thought of these programs as ways to help a team and a manager know what’s going on, keep all the balls in the air, keep things on track, keep tabs on progress while people work with autonomy… but not to supplant the basic communication and interaction parts of managing a team and assigning work, especially as you are just getting to know people… But maybe I’m out of touch? I could use a reality check, y’all.

    1. GarlicMicrowaver*

      In theory, project management systems sound seamless. They are meant to to track different stages of a project and all its elements. For example, our website vendor prefers all methods of communication from us go through their internal project portal. However, much like setting boundaries in real life is hard, it’s inevitable that there will be a fine line between email/other communication and communication via this platform.

      If companies truly want to commit to using these, they need to make it part of their living/breathing process. Have you ever heard of Agile? Many companies, especially digital marketing, have been adapting that. But to fully commit, you need to change the mindset of an entire team. And that rarely is convenient or feasible..

      So no, you are not being ornery and old-school.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I agree that it shouldn’t totally supplant interpersonal communication, but if the manager is still having conversations with people (aka, a weekly check-in, etc) and just not talking about all the moving pieces, I’d argue that’s exactly how this should work. Project management software is basically only useful if you get 100% of people on it and do 100% of project tracking within it. If the manager is making that happen, and still having bigger-picture conversations with employees that don’t talk about moving pieces around the board but focus on how the employee is doing, what they need help with, etc, then that seems kind of perfect to me?

  161. Inver*

    Hi thread! I could use some advice.

    An opening just came up for an internal position! The role I am in currently is a pretty okay role for me, but I am excited at the area of work this new position focuses on, and I want to apply.

    Thing is, there hasn’t been a mention of what the pay would be, and there is a chance it might be lower than what I am currently earning. That would be a tough sell. Should I wait until an offer to ask, like Alison has mentioned for external interviews? Should I email the hiring manager, with whom I have never worked directly? Being different departments means we’re in each other’s periphery, but nothing more.

    If they’ve decided on a lower pay rate than mine, I’d be afraid that asking too soon would overplay my hand. After all, it’s really easy to say no to someone who hasn’t interviewed yet! On the other hand, waiting too long to ask might make them feel like they wasted time interviewing me if the pay is lower and non-negotiable. It probably *would* be a waste of time, and I don’t want to burn (well, singe) any bridges with colleagues.

    To top it off, I am on vacation in another country for the next few days, so I can’t put out feelers in person. Any tips for when/how I should ask about the pay? This is a rush hiring, it sounds like, so there will only be one interview and candidates will be decided on the next day.

    1. SoCalHR*

      The difference with this situation is that they know your current salary, whereas most hiring people don’t exactly know. If I got a request for someone to be considered for an internal position, I would consider salary level when initially reviewing the candidate and probably would bring it up if the discrepancy was significant (i.e. asking, is this something you are really interested in, even if that means taking a pay cut?).

      I think you may want to approach it as a tentative interest in the role at this point – maybe say something like “while I am satisfied with my current position, the new Teapots Coordinator position sounds interesting to me because of the area of work it focuses it, I’d like to know more about the role to assess whether it could be a good next step in my career at Teapots Inc. ”

      With regard to emailing the hiring manager, how are internal positions normally applied for at your company?

    2. 3's enough!*

      You could also somewhat camouflage your question about salary by saying that you’re interested in interviewing if the role is at least a lateral move for you (if you truly wouldn’t consider taking a pay cut for the new job).

  162. Ermintrude Mulholland*

    I was very recently made redundant. The organisation is having a bit of a meltdown. I have since discovered that they don’t seem to have changed my email password and I can still read my work email on my phone.

    I intend no harm at all but it is So tempting to read the emails every now and then to see how the company meltdown is going…

    But my question is – will they be able to tell and could I get in any legal trouble for doing so? I am in the uk.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      remove the app, etc from your phone. remove the temptation. time to move on.

      1. Manders*

        Agreed. As much as I love a bit of schadenfreude, in this case I think you should totally remove the temptation.

  163. Anon for this*

    I usually get in at least an hour earlier than my colleagues and even though we are all exempt employees, we do have a set schedule of expected work hours. But on various days that I’ve stayed late, I notice that many of them leave only half an hour after I do on normal days, so I am essentially working a half hour more every day. Am I hurting myself by having this earlier schedule? Should I maybe start coming in an hour later and then leave when they do? I like coming in earlier, but I don’t like working more time than everyone else.

    1. Anna Canuck*

      There are other factors here, like how long of a lunch people take. It’s always the easiest to work the hours everyone else does, but I also prefer to get in early and out early. (It’s necessary for the way we juggle daycare.) Is there any flexibility to leave a little sooner than you have been? To nudge your morning a little later? To take a longer lunch for yourself?

    2. Boredatwork*

      I also had this problem. I just started leaving earlier. Instead of 4:30, I leave at 4:00. All my work gets done, I’m not resentful and no one has commented about it in 6 months.

      1. Anna Canuck*

        Also true: no one may actually care if you leave sooner. I’m in first and out first every day amongst my team. No one cares.

  164. Marketing Guru*

    How do I approach my new job about the possibility of moonlighting? Current job is willing to pay me my full salary to work on my own time (it’s only 15 real hours of work a week, not sure how they made it a full time job), but I haven’t seen the handbook at my new place to see the policy.

    Having both salaries would open up a world of possibility for me… thoughts?

    1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Everywhere I’ve worked has a formal policy. If you’ve been working with an HR person to get onboarded at new job, I’d ask them if there is a policy about having a part-time second job. If there isn’t one, then you are in the clear. If there is a policy, I’d probably down play it a little and say something like “old job asked if I’d be willing to work a few hours on some projects during non-business hours” and then see if that is ok under the policy that your new employer has.

    2. RedinSC*

      Why would you tell your new job that you’re taking on side gigs? I wouldn’t mention it to them and just make sure that all your work for them is done well and on time.

      1. LovecraftInDC*

        Some employers do have policies on it, and at my org (a bank), you would get walked out the door if you didn’t get approval for it and they found out.

    3. OtterB*

      I think you do need to know the policy at the new place. At ours, for example, we are required to get the Executive Director’s permission. He’s perfectly reasonable about it and has approved a couple of side gigs for me, but we do have to check to confirm that there’s no conflict of interest, misuse of organization resources, etc. If you can’t find out the new job’s policy before you start, can you tell the current job that you are interested but have to wait until you start at NewJob to confirm?

      If it’s clear there’s no conflict of interest between the two organizations, then I think it’s reasonable to ask the HR onboarding person or your hiring manager about the possibility of continuing doing some work for your old job in your off hours (but I wouldn’t be specific about the amount of work).

  165. Arjay*

    This is at least related to Alison’s work: I goy my book plate! I’m so excited! But I haven’t put it in the book yet because I’m sure I’ll place it crooked and be mad at myself for all eternity. #NerdProblems

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I got my book plate too! I don’t currently own a paper copy of the book though. My pre order was for the Kindle version. Since then, I’ve gifted another Kindle version and a paper version to others, but I need to buy myself a paper copy.

    2. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I got mine too! I put it in, and somehow managed to get it straight!

  166. Words, words, words*

    What do I say? I left a job due to, let’s say, malfeasance which I reported up after resigning. Getting ready to move into a new job hunt and wondered what you folks would recommend when asked why I left that job. What I used last time was, “There were things going on that I could neither accept nor change so it was time to go.” Word came back to me later that that cost me an opportunity. Are there better ways to say it that might not set off alarm bells? I do understand that there are places leery of someone who’d report a supervisor in general, and there’s not much I can do about that. I also am screening jobs for avoiding the circumstances of the one in question.

    And just FYI my reference from that job is a former direct report. He knows what happened and had to help clean up the mess I reported.

    Many thanks.

    1. CAA*

      “There were things going on that I could neither accept nor change so it was time to go” is too oblique. It makes it sound like you just didn’t like it there or didn’t get along with your supervisor or were unhappy about who got promoted, or any number of other scenarios which raise the concern that you may be difficult to work with.

      To avoid that impression, you need to make it clear what kinds of things you could not accept, such as “the company made us work off the clock and refused to comply with labor law” or “OSHA regulations were ignored and workers were being put at risk” or “I found out the treasurer was embezzling and when I reported it to the CFO, nothing was done.”

    2. Bobstinacy*

      I would say something along the lines of:

      “I discovered something that was unethical/illegal being done within the company and when I reported it nothing was done. I wasn’t comfortable working for a company that was willing to condone illegal/unethical activities.”

      Pick unethical or illegal depending on the offence and how much you want to reveal. And I wouldn’t elaborate on what was done since that could start to veer into making them wonder what you’ll say about their company.

  167. GetMeOuttaHere*

    FINALLY got a job offer so I can get out of this increasingly toxic job. Yay! As a bonus, it’s actually a really great opportunity! Just wanted to shout from the rooftops a little!

    2. Cruciatus*

      Congrats! And may your notice not feel like the longest 2 weeks (or whatever) of your life!

  168. Musing*

    I have a friend who is really unhappy with her job, so she’s been calling out (fake) sick frequently and even lying about her children being sick to take days off for fun. I think she’s taken off more days than she’s gone in over the past month. This friend is getting on my nerves because pretending your children are sick to take extra vacation days for yourself is just…. wrong. As someone without any children, this made me realize how much easier it is for someone with kids to take extra days off throughout the year, but I hope most people are more honest, especially in jobs where coworkers have to fill in as a result of someone being out. If I were to fake sick, people would be concerned and ask me about it when I return!

    1. Cristina in England*

      Yeah, what your friend is doing is super shady and unethical! It’s so frustrating for people we follow the rules to abide blatant abuse of the system.

      It sounds like she is really unhappy and burnt out. Generally people with kids find it much harder to get actual days off, so you aren’t “losing out” on extra days off because you don’t have kids yourself. Every working parent I know burns through their vacation time because of their children’s illnesses, partly because daycares and schools have rules about not a sick kid not returning until 48 hours a gastrointestinal illness, for example, not to mention your garden variety fevers, chicken pox, random viral rashes that aren’t chicken pox, etc.

      She isn’t getting ahead with her shady behavior. Sounds like she is barely treading water.

  169. Fangy Yelly*

    Is there any hope of convincing my old school bosses in my government organization that requiring original receipts and complete paper copies of corporate credit card purchases is a policy of the past?

    I highly doubt our employees will fraud all over the place if we go digital…

    1. BuffaLove*

      Not if they’re anything like my agency. We actually moved to an all-digital process, and they still require us to send in our receipts, even though it says RIGHT THERE ON THE WEBSITE that receipts aren’t needed, and even if they were, they could be attached as a scanned pdf. The mind, it boggles.

      1. Fangy Yelly*

        Sigh. My boss has definitely said before that even if we go to a digital review, we would 100% expect staff to keep their physical receipts in their offices. I facepalm on the inside. Maybe one day they’ll retire and we can implement something better.

        Welp, time to get back to shuffling my piles of paper!

    2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      We haven’t gone digital because there’s a training process involved in using the digital system. (Official reason given by the C-suite) But we’re horribly old fashioned here. We just went to electronic timesheets last year!

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Ask them what happens when their original receipt is digital?

      About 1/2 my receipts have never been in paper form. We use Concur, you either upload a digital copy from email or picture or it automatically attaches the digital copy to the entry.

    4. Short & Dumpy*

      No. Because unless your bosses are Cabinet-level that direction is coming from way above them. Plus, since we are changing credit card companies this year NO ONE actually believes we will have reliable access to old electronic receipts for future audits.

  170. Anon4This*

    My friend is finishing up a PhD and just started job searching, and she somehow got a phone interview for an ED-level position that she isn’t remotely qualified for (she has no relevant experience outside of the degree, which is a highly technical STEM degree, and they’re asking for 10 years of experience, including 4 years in management and heavy experience in donor relations). That must be a mistake, right? I’m beyond puzzled.

    I also found out that she applied to 200 jobs in A MONTH. She actually received an email from one of the organizations asking her to do some research before applying because she wasn’t at all qualified for the position that she applied for. She’s clearly just throwing her resume at every position that she finds.

    I’m just cringing to watch someone I care about do this, but I also don’t think she’d be receptive to constructive criticism… maybe I can buy her Alison’s book if she doesn’t get the picture on her own soon.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      maybe drop in this site in conversation, as a “really interesting stories/advice, and great for job searches too.”

  171. Sci Fi IT Girl*

    Cover letter question for the hive mind – how to comment on your less strong area?

    When applying for a position that is a stretch (academic) – how do you say you would be very willing to be trained / get experience in where you are lacking? I am very strong applicant for most of the job requirements listed, however in one area – say research, I don’t have the experience. A lot of that is due to working away from academic centers so you don’t really have the chance to do much there nor be around people who do, and I do have a ton of “street” smarts (brining large hospital and other systems on line, etc.) and real life experience which they are also looking for (and their staff currently don’t have).

    As a group we women don’t often apply to jobs that are a “reach” and I also don’t want to be a total dork applying and not acknowledge the could-use-experience-here. So…how do you phrase the “know I got a learning curve on research, am willing to bust my hump to learn and I’ve got these other great skills” without sounding like you are selling your weakest point?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m thinking that you probably had to do some research to be able to bring hospitals and those other systems online, it just may not have been in the purely academic sense like what I assume this position may entail. What I’ve learned, and what Alison has more than likely pointed out somewhere on her blog or in her other resources, is that you don’t point out the skills that you don’t have. You point out the ways that you provide value to the position and the company. Sell your strong points. If your weaknesses come up during an interview, mention ways you can combat them then. Don’t try to knock yourself out of the running now.

    2. Minocho*

      Maybe bring up something that shows you’ve picked up skills in the past? Making some assumptions off your username and my own experience, but IT people have to be a little like sharks – if you don’t keep learning, your career is dead. I purposely jump on projects that are a reach to help me stave off complacency. An example of past performance and an explicit statement of future intention are likely to be helpful.

  172. Stock Photoman*

    Tl;dr version:
    Is it out of place to ask a current co-worker for an introduction to someone with regards to a job opening through work email?

    Some background:
    Currently I’m working part-time and looking for full-time work in the meantime. I’m no longer eligible to be on my parent’s insurance, so the search is a little more urgent than usual. When they brought me back (I was an intern last summer), my manager let me know that they are supportive of me continuing to look for full-time positions while I’m working here.

    I’ve found an exciting position somewhere I’d like to work, and while doing the usual research for my resume & cover letter I found out that this position is in the same department as a co-worker’s spouse. The spouse also posted about the position directly on LinkedIn. I’d like to ask for an introduction, but what would be the best way to go about this? Co-worker is in the same department, but they’re the director of a different team. Would it be inappropriate to ask through our work email? I thought about messaging on LinkedIn, but I wasn’t sure if that would look odd since I could just as easily email them.

    I’m also the master of overthinking everything, so I could be making a big deal out of nothing. This could be a great opportunity, so I want to make sure I approach everything the right way.

    1. 3's enough!*

      Can you just casually ask in person? “run into” the coworker in the lunch room and mentioned you are looking for full time work and saw that their spouse is in the same department ? (unless your “research” was superstalker level). Sometimes people get referral bonuses so it could also help the coworker and spouse if the resume goes through them.

    2. Boredatwork*

      How well do you know the co-worker? I personally wouldn’t ask someone I’d never really spoken to, to forward my resume. If she were the same level as you, that would change things slightly but since she’s a director, I’d err on the side of not asking.

      If you are casual chatters, talking about “weekend plans” or she’s mentioned family stuff to you (like the name of her husband/children/pets), that’s familiar enough to make the ask.

      you could also contact husband directly, ask about the position, mention you might know his wife. That’s probably the safest/least awkward way.

      1. Stock Photoman*

        I’d say we’re friendly, but don’t talk much outside of work related things. I knew her spouse’s name and where they worked before I found out about this opening (they’re fairly well known in the tech scene in our city), but I’ve never had direct contact with him.

        The only way I could reach out to him directly would be to ask to connect on LinkedIn. Would that be okay? I’m connected with my co-worker on LinkedIn, which is how I found her husband’s post about the position on his page.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Keep it simple, “Hey coworker as you know I’ve been looking for something more permanent. I found this interesting position at your spouses company. I was wondering if you could put in a good word for me?”
          Don’t ask for an introduction. What you really want here is for your co-worker to talk you up so the spouse and their company actually takes a look at your resume. Basically your asking for a networking referral from a coworker.

  173. ProbablyOverthinking*

    First, a little bit of backstory: I just recently (~2 months ago) started a new job. It’s contract (12 months, chance for extension up to 18 months) with no potential for conversion to full time. This job isn’t really what I want to be doing long-term, which I was very up-front with my boss about since there’s no chance of being hired full time for this role anyways. He told me in the interview, and it has proven to be true, that the only responsibilities for the job were those listed in the description – no real room for role growth and maybe a handful of off-list, one-off tasks to crop up during the contract. Which is… Not ideal for me, I don’t do well when I’ve got nothing to do and there is definitely some times at work where there are no tasks and I’m just sort of present but not doing anything. My boss consistently informs me during our one-on-ones that I’m doing well, better than he expects people to be this early on in the role, and he doesn’t have any sort of criticism or feedback to offer for my improvement.

    This brings me to the question at hand: A woman (Katie) with the company, who I regularly work directly with, just got offered a full time job elsewhere (contract roles are kind of the norm in the industry I’m in, so it’s difficult to pass up an offer for full time when it comes along) Katie has the job I want, and have spent the past several years working towards. I have the required skillset, I just need the experience on my resume to start getting jobs in this role. Her boss (Ken) is, understandably, stretched thin due to her leaving. I would love to volunteer some of the spare time I’ve found myself with to helping out Ken with some of Katie’s tasks until he can find/hire a replacement for her. Given what my boss told me about the role before offering me the job (no real growth/tasks beyond what’s in the description) is this okay to ask of my boss? Obviously, all my core responsibilities would come first, and I’d clearly communicate that to Ken! But I’d love to get a little more experience and have a little less time just sitting around doing nothing useful. My boss knows that this is the sort of work I’d like to break into, and is a great person, but I don’t want to make it seem like I’m just coasting in this job until something better comes along. I really, genuinely enjoy the actual work involved with this job, even if it’s not my dream career.

    1. Boredatwork*

      I can’t imagine any reasonable person who would tell you that they don’t want your help/they’d like you to do less work. I think this is a win-win.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      It sounds like it won’t hurt to ask! Especially when you’ve been so candid so far, you have a good relationship with your boss, and your boss is clear about expectations. You should probably reassure him that you’re 100% in this job for the duration of your contract, but pointing out that you have time on your hands that the company’s paying for, and that you see an opportunity to both learn and go above and beyond your current duties shouldn’t raise any red flags for him.

      IMHO, a good manager should be happy to give you this opportunity.

      Good luck!

  174. Batshua*

    In the Batshua saga, next week I start the L-Theanine that was recommended by my woo provider. I had been waiting because we recently increased my Wellbutrin. I’m not sure it helped. I’m not sure Wellbutrin helps, but if it does, it’s subtle.

    I am STILL going bonkers with boredom in my downtime, but in addition to looking for new jobs, I HAD AN IDEA.

    I want to learn medical Spanish. Even better, I want approval for work to support me learning medical Spanish in my downtime.

    I don’t know if it’ll happen or which channels I have to go through, but I would love some medical Spanish resources from folks, especially if you or someone you know has experience with them. My conversational Spanish is already pretty good, so it’s really the medical vocabulary that matters, and I can always brush up on that in DuoLingo, but I don’t think they have stuff there for “let me help you with the advanced directive” and such.

  175. Wrench Turner*

    Joys of home ownership:
    Every major system in my house is coming to “end of life” and we’re just trying to eke out another year before we can do a full renovation. We want to take our little Cape Cod and give it a full 2nd floor which means a new roof (current one is going fast) and new HVAC (current one is rusting away) and new plumbing (current set is corroding and we need to upgrade capacity and run it out to our in-law suite out back. Just have to hopefully get the financing/home equity business together properly. I’m doing the initial planning/building drawings myself and then going to punt it to an architecture firm for cost estimates and project management. I know enough about housing design to comfortably say “No, this is what I want. Just make it fit.” The rest is lawyers, guns and money.

    1. Minocho*

      I’m in Houston, and feel your pain. I missed flooding by the seat of my pants – not being a native, I didn’t know about certain geographical issues, such as the fact that my property is right next to one of the two giant reservoirs set up to catch flood waters north and west of Houston – and then we had some nasty freezes this winter, and a pipe burst. Then, the day after the fix, another one further along the path sprung leaks…and then more.

      Long story short, full house repiping! Yaaaaaaaaay……. :(

      I am loving my water pressure now, though. The bill…not so much.

  176. ildi*

    Long time lurker, first time commenting. Back story: I retired with a government pension two years ago at a relatively young age but knew I’d be needing to get back into the job market to earn at least the minimum 40 social security credits if I wanted to get any benefits on that end in 10 years or so. I don’t really need the money and I love my current freedom so I’ve been selective about what I’ve been applying for. This advice column has been invaluable, and I hope my resume and cover letters adequately reflect that.

    Long story short, I got a call today to set up a phone interview on Monday-I was so excited I inadvertently interrupted the scheduler a few times: oops! I’ll have to watch for that on Monday; unfortunately I do fall on the higher end of the interrupter scale, but with feedback from friends and family I’ve gotten better.

    I have my references lined up, and I’m reviewing the job posting and the institution and writing down bullet points of things I don’t want to forget to address – any recommendations for making this a successful interview? My last interview was in 2001, and I’ve never done a phone interview-ack!

    1. irene adler*

      Phone interviews are mostly about fit. They wish to screen folks out using a few basic criteria.

      So make sure you know about the company, know the salary range for the job, and know your answer as to why you are looking for a job. They will probably ask “tell me about yourself.” Or, “why are you looking for a job?” and “tell me what you know about the company”. And “why do you want to work here?”. And “tell me about your last job/company.” And “what type of job are you looking for?”. And, “do you prefer to work on teams or independently?”. They may also broach the salary issue, as they want to be in the same neighborhood salary-wise as you are. They may ask a few behavioral questions as well (Tell me about a time where you failed, Tell me about a time when you had to work with someone difficult, etc).

      It’s good to have ready the “how my skills fit the job description” prep. But don’t be disappointed if the interviewer doesn’t cover this in detail. They may ask about one or two deal-breaker skills, but the in-depth discussion of skills happens at a subsequent interview.

      Depending upon the location of the interviewer, they may or may not be able to answer questions on specifics of the job, work environment, company culture, etc.

      As this is a phone interview, it’s hard to keep calm and not interrupt the interviewer. And it’s hard to gauge if your answer is what they want to hear or if you are going on too long. So, let the interviewer finish speaking before you answer, and don’t drone on with your answers. Ask if they’d like to hear more about your answer.

  177. Gaia*

    I have an interview next week and I’m really unsure what to wear. They are a business casual (more casual than business) tech-ish startup. I would normally wear some nice dark grey slacks with coordinated blazer and blouse but 1. from what I know of this office this is very very overdressed and 2. as ive lost weight my blazer doesn’t fit well anymore and it looks less polished.

    I was thinking if slacks and a knit cardigan plus blouse but that feels really casual. Ideas? The interview is a bit out of nowhere and on Tuesday so I don’t have a lot of time to shop….

    1. beanie beans*

      I’ve had this kind of anxiety in interviews also! Can you bring the jacket but then take it off after you’ve done handshakes and sit down to start the interview? Would that be weird? Seems like it might help with both issues though?

    2. Rincat*

      Do you have another type of jacket – so not a blazer but still more structured than a cardigan? That could work, still has a “professional” vibe but it’s not a traditional blazer/suit.

      I’ve interviewed in slacks and a cardigan/blouse before and felt fine. I stuck with dark neutrals and I wore heels. Flats felt too casual for that outfit, but a nice heel made it a little more polished.

      Another tip is to make sure you don’t have too many knits or unstructured fabrics going on – wovens will look more polished even in a casual outfit than knits will (says the Queen of Stretch Knits, who is typing this in a stretch knit shirt right now).

    3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I’ve interviewed at startups in a blouse and slacks/skirt; I think that’s perfectly fine. If you come in looking like you cared what you looked like, I think that will fully meet the bar and nobody will think anything about it.

      I would *not* wear a blazer, unless it’s a really stylish one; in one of those interviews, one dude mentioned how people showing up in suits really showed that they didn’t understand the culture. And this was at a place where some people, sometimes, wore suits! It was clear it wasn’t a disqualifier, but it can be an indication that you understand the culture.

      I think the most important thing is to be comfortable; you’ll settle into the conversation better if you’re not worried about your clothes, and that’s the ultimate point of casual dress codes.

    4. Minocho*

      Just wanted to say that I have had really good luck with Old Navy for non suit jackets at a really budget friendly price.

    5. MechanicalPencil*

      I think that outfit is completely acceptable. My preference/style would say to do a darker colored pair of slacks, jewel toned blouse, and a lighter neutral cardigan. However, you could riff on that and do a patterned blouse and coordinating cardigan with neutral slacks.

      I’ve found that a low heel does a lot to make me feel more professional when the rest of my outfit is maybe on the more casual feeling side of business casual. And by low heel I mean a half inch to an inch.

    6. voluptuousfire*

      You might be able to get away with a medium or dark rinse pair of jeans, flats, nice blouse and cardigan.

      You can just ask! Believe me, it never hurts to do that. They’ll likely either tell you jeans are OK or something you feel comfortable in. My current job is a start up and I interviewed in August. I wore a black shift dress with white polka dots from JC Penney, a coral cardigan from Old Navy and an interesting necklace and nude flats. Jeans are usually fine for start ups (IME), but I liked that outfit since it was casual but also dressy enough to be in “interview” mode.

      I’ve also interviewed at several other start ups in a houndstooth blazer (looked something like the one Matt Smith wore as Dr. Who), a black tshirt or tank, dark rinse skinny jeans and brown riding boots (in the winter) and nude flats (in spring/summer).

    7. Bex*

      I just had an in-person interview at a similar place, where a suit would have been way too much (and I’m almost always on Team Suit). I went with black BR Sloan pants, heels, and a silk blouse. I think it was just right.

  178. silvertech*

    I’m not sure someone will read this far now, but I’ll try. For those of you who changed careers, how old where you when you did it and why? I’m 34, and for a lot of reasons, I feel really incompetent, stuck and unable to get anywhere with my skills. It would help to read some of your stories, because right now I’m feeling hopeless! Thanks!

      1. silvertech*

        Well, I wish you the best, I know it’s not easy! Can I ask you what career did your mentor switch to?

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I was 35 when I started my second masters; 38 when I graduated, and have been in my new career since then. I actually decided to switch careers because I was feeling stuck and unable to get anywhere with my skills (though not feeling incompetent; I was just overqualified for the job I had but seemingly without the skills to move anywhere else), and as soon as I registered for my first semester of classes, I was offered a job in my first field that was perfect for me. I stuck with grad school while working in the new, wonderful job, and then switched to my current field when I graduated. I know I was unbelievably lucky, but also hopefully this is inspiring for you!

      1. silvertech*

        Thanks for your comment! In my current circumstances it’s impossible for me to go back to school, any type of school really, but I really wish I could. I’d like to take classes, even online, to expand my possibilities, but I have no clue about what I could do…

    3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Just think: There are CEOs right now who didn’t even start on the path that led them where they are now until their 40’s. You’ll be fine. Build skills, get new ones, figure out what you’re passionate about/interested in, and keep trying.

      1. silvertech*

        Thanks Kimberlee! One of my worst issues is internal motivation, so my first skill to build might be that one…

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I did a huge change at 28, then (in the company I moved to at 28) jumped into a totally different role/department from my original position at 34.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          The bigger change came about because I was seriously unhappy in the position I was in. I had worked my way up from teller to branch manager at a bank, but I was getting paid horribly and had no support from upper management – I hated it (and managing people was NOT for me). I got to the point my health was suffering, and I was desperate to get out and do literally anything else. I knew someone in another city who’s ad tech company had an open lower level client support position. So I applied, then interviewed. I was very clear in my interview that I wasn’t happy in banking, and was ready for a big change. When they offered the position it was clear they thought I would turn it down (pretty sure they thought I was getting paid more than they offered, but I was NOT). I snapped it up and ran away from the bank like my hair was on fire.

          The in-company transition was a lot more organic. I took what I learned in the new client support position to help support a new product the company rolled out. We needed an operations process and documentation of how our tools and workflow supported the new product. I took on that work, then made the argument for creating a position that focused solely on supporting that new business process. My employer agreed, and I became the first person in that role. I became a super user for all the internal tools that go into supporting that process. So when a product owner role to support our internal tools opened up, I threw my hat in based on my background and experience with them. I joined the product team a few months ago. It’s very different, and I’m learning a lot, but I love it.

    5. Windchime*

      I was around 37 or 38 when I went back to school (community college) to learn programming and got my first IT job when I was almost 40. I have never, ever been sorry that I changed tracks. I was doing payment processing in a medical office and went into programming at that same office.

      I highly recommend making a change if you want to. I felt old when I went back to school, but now I realize that I was still pretty young!

      1. silvertech*

        Thanks so much! I’m thinking about programming, but I don’t know if it’s the right fit. I’ve taken some very basic courses at uni years ago, but I barely remember them. I know I want and need to change, I have to figure out what to do next though :)

  179. Amber Rose*

    Manager meeting happening behind me is so loud, I can hear everything.

    Including the bit about how if someone is assigned to empty the dishwasher, they should be female.

    I’ve never been more disgusted with my co-workers. :[

      1. Amber Rose*

        If it’s me, I’m refusing. Or else I’ll make a point of emptying it and leaving everything on the floor.

        One way or another I usually end up with the shit work but not this time. I’m actually upset right now.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah. The response was “well we have female admins.”

        :|

        My (female) boss just straight up called them gross though, which was great. Unfortunately she’s outnumbered. We’ll see what happens.

    4. Minocho*

      Dishes are removed from dishwasher, and if breakable, smashed on the floor. If squishable, stepped on, and if neither, hidden.

      Done. It’s empty.

      2. Minocho*

        Don’t you MAKE me KEEP emptying that dishwasher! I will! You will never have another dish again. >:(

    5. Thlayli*

      Did they say a specific person or persons who happens to be female, or did they literally say it has to be a woman? Were they joking?

      If they were literally making an outright sexist statement and there’s no possibility they were joking or they just happened to mention a woman, I think you should report that

      1. Amber Rose*

        Not joking. It was called an administration task and pointed out that we have female admins. My supervisor eventually called them gross and said she wouldn’t back it, but was met with silence.

        That was a manager meeting. It was all the managers. There’s nowhere left to go for reporting.

        1. Minocho*

          Well, at least your supervisor is cool? That’s not going to always be enough if everyone else in management is like that, but it’s better than your supervisor joining in.

        2. Thlayli*

          You don’t Have a hr department?

          That’s so awful. I think you should tell your supervisor you overheard, if only to commiserate with her.

  180. beanie beans*

    Anyone else struggle with wanting to add smiley faces and overuse explanation marks to work emails? I have anxiety when ending sentences in a serious-tone period. But I’m friendly! Thanks! Your welcome! Have a nice day! :)

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Totally. I generally write the email with as many exclamation marks as I think in my head, and then go back and edit most of them out. And I SERIOUSLY limit my smileys. (But I do use them sparingly.)

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Same as Teapot Librarian for me. I like to keep a few in; I’m enthusiastic by nature, and I want my comms to express that. But I do tend to look over what I’ve written to ensure that I’m not using an exclamation point in, say, two sentences in a row.

      And I like smileys. I think they’re perfectly fine, unless you work in, like, Big Law. :)

    3. beanie beans*

      I like the idea of using a :) every once in a while for the right email to get it out of my system so I can have “normal” emails the rest of the time.

    4. Gatomon*

      I’d rather be too enthusiastic!! and happy :) than come off like a jerk. Tone is so hard to get right and if I think it’s possible to have something misconstrued, I throw a smiley in. That said, there is the asshole smiley (where you say something that can only be rude or mean and then throw a smiley on the end to CYA if someone complains). I don’t do that.

      I have a coworker who is a notorious jackass in email and honestly, he’d come across much better if he’d just add a “Thanks!” or a :) once in a while. Sometimes when he’s actually nice in an email I have to reread it and make sure there isn’t a veiled insult….

  181. Post-Job Offer Limbo*

    Great news: I got a job offer this week, from my top choice out of all the ones I applied to, with a salary above the range I was even going to ask for, and (what seems like) a great manager and team to boot!!! I am absolutely ecstatic. Also, thanks Alison and this community for all the advice… I’ve been a longtime stalker of this website over the past two years and have read basically every single thing that’s been posted since then.

    Question: When do I withdraw my applications from other places, announce on social media, etc.? I realize this is kind of a silly question compared to my earlier worries about actually GETTING an offer, but I’m still paranoid as I have to clear a background check before I’m “officially” an employee. However, I feel bad leaving my hat in the ring at other places and being shifty when people ask me what I’m doing next (I already put in notice at my job), since I’m pretty sure I’m not taking any other offers at this point, and my new manager already welcomed me over the phone and seems to be acting like I am definitely starting next week. What are the chances of failing a background check if I have no criminal history etc.??? (I work in higher ed administration, by the way)

    1. Susan1*

      Myself I would wait until I started and would do that in the first week. Re: other employers I would let them know now if they follow up with you.

  182. Anon321*

    I am moving to a new city soon and have been going through the job application process. I’ve had two interviews for two different companies–I’ll call them Companies A and B.

    Company A called me yesterday and offered me the position with a good salary! Great, except it requires a substantial amount of travel, and my preference would be to work at Company B. Company A gave me the weekend to think about the offer.

    Company B will be interviewing through the end of next week. I’m confident that my interview with them went well, and would prefer this job, but in my position, it’s difficult to turn down a job in a new city.

    What advice do you all have? What would you do?

    1. H.C.*

      If possible, can you negotiate with Company A on the offer (which will buy you a little bit of time) while pushing Company B to expedite their decision?

    2. CatCat*

      I would tell B that I enjoyed the opportunity to interview and I am still excited about the possibility of working for B, but that I have an offer in hand and must give them my answer on Monday. Is there any chance B can accelerate their process?

      Either B will do something about it right away if they really want you, or they won’t. If they won’t, I would take A’s offer and withdraw politely from B

      1. Susan1*

        Agreed – it sounds like perfect timing in a way as you had already done the interview with B. Hopefully you get the answer you want. Either way perhaps you can move into B in the future.

  183. McWib*

    My office’s new intern asks me for advice about her work and then disagrees with it. I don’t care if she follows my advice, but it’s frustrating and wasteful of my time for her to debate (poorly) with me about whether I’m right. Today, I got annoyed with going back and forth on an issue and ended a “debate” by saying, “Well, you may disagree, but my answer is my answer,” which I fear was rude. How do I shut these conversations down politely?

    1. H.C.*

      I tend to go with the “Thanks for your input, I’ll take that into consideration.” (Even if that consideration is a near-instant “Nope!”)

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      That’s what I call an ask-hole. A person who asks for your advise and never actually follows it and may even argue with you about it.
      I think next time she asks you can say, “Why do you ask for my advice if you are going to not even consider it and go straight into a debate about it?” I bet she doesn’t even realize what she is doing.

      1. Triple Anon*

        I’m kind of like that. I do it because hearing another person’s perspective gives me a broader view of the issue and helps to clarify my own perspective on it. So I do value and appreciate the answer even if I decide that I disagree with it. But I think the trick is to show that you appreciate it, be respectful, and not just argue.

    3. ronda*

      you can switch to “why do you ask” and “well what have you thought of to do” instead of giving your opinion.

    4. Triple Anon*

      I would talk to her about it. Let her know that you appreciate being asked for advice and you’re happy to help, but you often don’t have time to have a more in depth conversation about each question. If you have regular meetings with her, you could ask her to add the things she wants to talk about more to the agenda for the next meeting. That way you’re not really shutting it down; you’re just encouraging good time management and, by implication, thinking carefully about what needs to be discussed and what doesn’t.

  184. So anon for this because you never know...*

    I’m slowly losing respect for a few of my coworkers and I feel really bad about it!

    They’re all really great people – I love working with them – and, as far as I know, they’re all great at their jobs. But there have been a few conversations recently that made me really question their intelligence. And these things were not like nuanced concepts or high-level critical thinking, but very basic stuff! Stuff normal adult humans should most certainly know/understand!

    I feel really guilty judging them, but I can’t help it! Any suggestions on ways to adjust my perspective?

    1. MoinMoin*

      There’s an xkcd comic about how 10,000 people are learning something new for the first time everyday and I try to remember that and keep perspective, especially reminding myself about all the things I didn’t know that flabbergasted people (not seeing Star Wars until a few years ago, being pretty advanced with Excel but sucking at macros, etc). I think I linked the comic in my name but I’m not sure because I’m at work and the site is astonishingly blocked.

    3. LCL*

      Go to my latest favorite subreddit, whatisthisthing?
      People post pics and descriptions of things they have found but can’t identify and everybody makes their suggestions. Some objects are baffling. Some are so basic you think, how can OP not know this? Then you realize that everything is new to somebody.

    4. KMB213*

      Today we had to spent about 20 minutes explaining the different between North Korea and South Korea to a coworker.

      The coworker has an undergraduate degree in biochemistry and a JD.

      I just remind myself that we all have either moments where we forget something that we know, or areas that we’re just not knowledgeable in.

    5. FaintlyMacabre*

      I am a smart person, but geography is not my thing. I’m not even going to admit how old I was before I realized New England is not a state… somethings just fly under the radar until they don’t!

    6. Triple Anon*

      Boundaries. It’s not your responsibility. Working for someone else means doing the things they ask you to do in exchange for money and benefits. Anything outside of that is a judgment call (“above and beyond,” which should be used strategically in ways that will benefit both you and the employer). You’re paid to have good working relationships with these people, but not to evaluate them. So raise your eyebrows and think, “Huh! Interesting!” and file it away until/unless there’s an appropriate reason to bring it up.

      You can judge your employer for it, though. If they put really incompetent people in charge of important things, it’s a red flag and a reason to consider your options and keep your resume polished up.

  185. Cedrus Libani*

    I have an etiquette question.

    I work for a big supplier of chocolate teapots. As a volunteer, I also help run a program that teaches chocolate skills to inner-city youth. Long story short, they could use a bunch of chocolate teapots, preferably at cost / free.

    I don’t think I’m out of line to try to finagle some cheap teapots out of my employer, perhaps in exchange for a photo op. But I have no idea who to talk to. I’m an engineer, and somewhat gumption-impaired…this is decidedly not in my wheelhouse. Anybody done this kind of thing before, and have tips?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Do you have a marketing department or some sort of PR person? They would be the ones in charge of the photo op, which would make them the ones who would be able to finagle the aspect of getting the teapots at cost/free.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      If you have a marketing department, start there. Otherwise ask your boss or grandboss.

    3. LadyKelvin*

      Do you have a PR/outreach type of department of position? Or customer service area? They are the people I’d talk to about charitable giving (use those words).

    4. ronda*

      some companies have charity / volunteering initiatives. if your company does see if they have any programs or suggestions.

      my friend coaches the local first robotics team. his company is a big sponsor and the main sponsor of the comp day in their city. (I am not sure which came first, my friend becoming a coach or the company becoming a big sponsor.) The kids on the teams for this also have to come up with a business plan and have done recruiting of local companies to sponsor their specific team. Apparently some teams have million dollar budgets. https://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc

      maybe you can look into how some of those teams do it (there are probably some teams local to you)?
      and also, you may be thinking too small, your company may be willing to do a lot more.

  186. Looser*

    HELP! I am still angry that I screwed up my career ten years ago. I tried therapy and anger management classes, but I am still furious over the situation. I am trying to get a new job. I am getting lots of career advice from friends who are extremely successful. My job search is going slooooowly because I have 2 year old. I know I keep making excuses. I am in a job that is very specialized but has no room for advancement. I am trying look internally with roles that are related.
    Anyway I lashed out my friends giving advice during lunch and they had these snappy answers. I explained that I am still angry. Like start planning on getting laid off and take classes.
    Does anyone still have anger issues from their last jobs? I frustrated that my current job does not address this need of getting over it. I still feel like a loser and I hate myself for screwing up and not being able to rise above it.

    1. Amelie*

      I’m sorry, that sounds very tiring and unhappy. You say you tried therapy – how did that go? Was it helpful? Did you learn some tools and techniques for dealing with this anger? Are you still in therapy? It sounds like you still have a lot of processing to do, and that a good therapist would be the ideal person to work through this issue with. If you are not currently in therapy, what made you stop going, given that the issue is apparently not resolved? You might want to consider a different therapist, or a different mode of therapy, if your current/previous therapist is not helping you with this. You deserve to be able to move past this and have a successful career, and ten years is an awfully long time to be holding on to these feelings.

      1. Looser*

        thanks for the thought. I gave up on therapy. I was told to get over it and get use it. I tried two therapists. I also had other things going on in addition my job. It was taking time from family.

        I kinda like the comment below about looking forward and looking at job as means to earn money. Normally, I am ok. I deal. Today, I did n’t. I went out to lunch with two good friends that are wild successful and they kept giving advice (albeit useful).

        I was talking about this with my husband. The thing that I resent about my current or work in general is that it is not like I have time for a hobby. I just have to work. I do not do anything but house work, work, my kid.

    2. LQ*

      I was deeply angry at my last job for a long time. I’ve moved into a place of sadness. (And I’m sure moving into sadness is helped by my career finally feeling back on track.)

      Anger has value when it can be used as fuel. But it is a fuel that burns up fast. Anger is great when you see something that fills you with rage and you turn and productively use that anger to change the situation. Anger can be really useful if channeled well.

      I was angry at my former boss. But I couldn’t direct my anger at him (he literally up and left the state to escape the disaster he’d left me in). So I used it to fuel trying to find a new career (right in the middle of the recession! super fun, thanks). I did and I did and I did. And at some point I got hold of a new career and I really let it go at that point.

      The anger could never fuel a new career. It doesn’t have the long term stamina for that (and I know you’ve turned anger into a way of life (10 years!) but it’s being fed). So I had to turn to other sets of emotions. Anger that is more immediate (people being treated unfairly!), hope (I want to make the world better!), and just getting through the day stuff.

      Your job would, and should not address getting over anger from your last job. That’s not the purpose of your job. You are responsible for that. You are at work to exchange knowledge and time for money that you can use to purchase food, shelter, and other valuable items. I know it sounds simplistic, but remembering that might help shift your mindset. They aren’t their to be your friend, to make you a better person, to help you be different. They are there to consume your time and effort in exchange for a fee. They are not doing anything wrong by not addressing the getting over anger from your last job. That’s a really unreasonable expectation.

      You’ve tried therapy and anger management, but that sounds like looking backward. Look forward. Don’t talk about your last job (it was 10 years ago). Every time you bring it up it renews itself in your mind. Try to exclude it from your conversations. And find something else to focus on. (I’d recommend Designing Your Life as a book to try out, they talk about making the life you want looking forward and it’s got good suggestions on how you work toward that.)

      What’s one great thing that happened today? What’s a thing you’re looking forward to next week? What is the next skill you want to learn personally? Professionally? What challenge are you going to take on and really work hard at, even if you suck at it?

    3. AngryAnon*

      I am a roiling, stewing pot of anger over my last job. Like, considering creating an effigy of my last job and burning it. Like voodoo doll angry. Like wishing my former boss would get a rash that just doesn’t go away angry. (I actually like the last one best)

      But, it’s exhausting. I’m now able to compete with old job directly. I do the job better than ever before and I make a LOT more money. I’m sad I’ve spent my energy on that anger. I’m sad I stayed longer than was wise that led me to The Bad Place. I try to be as positive as possible always and make that the habit of my mind so I’m not focusing on the anger.

  187. beanie beans*

    Ooooh, man I’m in a weird spot.

    I’m on an interview panel next week and just saw the list of people we are interviewing. One of them is a former employee who was my lead when I first started.

    When he quit he did not hold back on his opinions of our company (which I get, I’m on the job hunt myself). The last time I saw him he called our company a dumping ground for basically unemployable people.

    This is going to be so awkward.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Oooh, that could be an interesting thing to mention. If you’re feeling like poking the bear.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        I think you misread that – trash talker is the one being interviewed.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          You would be right. Are they interviewing him for entertainment purposes?

          1. beanie beans*

            Interestingly enough, much of the management has turned over since he left, so while a lot of people know his name, I don’t think anyone in the hiring process knows much about his angry departure. Except me.

            I’ll try to post an update next Friday! I’m so fascinated!

    3. CatCat*

      Ooooh, I would ask about it.

      “When you left Company, I recall that you had some pretty negative comments about Company. Has your opinion of Company changed?” Follow up with, “Why?”

      I would want a clear, credible, and detailed reason for the change of heart. I’d be worried that if this guy got the job, he’d potentially be looking for something new soon. Like he’s kind of desperate for some reason and any port in storm will do until he finds something better.

      Also, saying crap like the Company is a “dumping ground for basically unemployable people” doesn’t make it sound like he has great judgment. If it was aimed at coworkers, it was really unkind because what is he saying about you and colleagues who are still there. If it was aimed at managers this on his way out, on top of being unkind, it’s also not at all constructive, useful, or actionable.

      1. beanie beans*

        I think that’s a great way of framing the question – I bet I can work that in! And you’re exactly right – I felt pretty crappy being lumped into that group.

    4. beanie beans*

      Forking is correct- I’m on the hiring panel and he’s the trash talker hoping to get hired. Just so weird since he basically trained me and now I’m in the equivalent of his former role.

      Pencil, unfortunately, it’s one of those panels where we are required to ask the exact same question of every person – not a lot of room to ask other questions unless they are follow-up questions. But maybe I can figure out how to turn it into a crafty follow up question to the standard “Why are you interested in this job” question.

  188. Trixie*

    Higher education employees, question regarding annual work schedule. How many departments employee staff for just 11 months of the year? I have seen 1-2 positions like this at my university and wonder if it’s more uncommon. (Or common enough it might be something I can look for.)
    Also, have you taken advantage of tuition concession for yourself? (Not family.) I am now eligible but not using. If I move to new job/campus, will have to begin two year clock again. (Or whatever they require.)

    1. Dear liza*

      1. I’ve heard of 11-month positions, but they seem rare. You might have a higher frequency in unionized state systems, like in California and Pennsylvania.

      2. Yes! I’ve enjoyed the classes I’ve taken, mostly for fun.

  189. The Intern*

    I’m so late, but I hope some of you guys will read this. :)

    I’m interviewing with a great, well-known company in my industry. The company I work for is a client of theirs, so per their policy, I need to notify my current manager if I get to the final round of interviews. I got a call on Wednesday and they want to move forward.

    There’s always a chance I won’t get an offer, so I don’t want to say anything I might regret. How open should I be with my manager? I applied for both companies at the same time, but great, well-known company’s timeline meant they only started interviews a month after I started my current position.

    I wouldn’t entertain leaving otherwise, but to put things in perspective, imagine you’re working for a small tech startup and the other company is Google. Great, well-known company pays twice as much as I make, they have an awesome internship program (which would give me the chance to explore all areas, from HR to Marketing) and I’d learn from the best.

    In an ideal world, I’d tell my manager exactly that, but I’d like to know how much (or how little!) I should say.

    1. Susan1*

      It depends on your relationship with your manager. If it were me I would stay quiet until necessary. It’s an awkward conversation to have and it could affect your manager’s opinion of you.

      1. The Intern*

        Thank you for your insight!

        We have a great relationship. She’s the best manager I’ve had so far — always has my back, communicates clearly, praises my work. I have no reason to believe she’d be anything but graceful about it.

        It’s definitely awkward. I was quiet for as long as I could, but in order to schedule my final interview I need to notify her and send proof of our communication to the other company.

  190. Middle School Teacher*

    I just applied for a new job, and now I’m feeling super stressed and nauseous.

    I love my job. There are so many things I love about my job. And this would be with the union that represents us, which I had planned on working for, if possible, towards the end of my career. But this opportunity came up, and the money is amazing, so I threw my hat in the ring. Even though I don’t have a lot of experience in the field. But it’s free to apply.

    I’ll be fine either way. But I’m terrified I’ll get the job and miss my friends and my old job, or suck at the new job??? Uggfhhhhhh so many thoughts!!!

    I need a lie-down.

    1. Susan1*

      That sounds normal. Do you know anything about the company? Maybe it’s a good idea to talk to people who work there to start getting more comfortable with the idea or to just do that research.

  191. Kathleen_A*

    Off-the-wall spam filter question here: The way the spam filter works at my office is that once/day, I get an emailed report that lists everything caught and includes each sender’s email, the subject, the date, etc. You can then click to release emails or to “allow” the sender, or you can delete the emailed list and the remaining emails disappear into That Great ‘Deleted Items’ File in the Sky. It’s a pretty great system, actually – the best we’ve had so far.

    Anyway, today the spam filter caught an email that had the following phrase in the subject line: “Tiсkеt#1234567: Your masturbation has been recorded through your cam.” So, first of all, no, it has not. I don’t even want to *think* about doing naughty things in front of my work laptop or actually any laptop at all, but most particularly not my work laptop. Second and more importantly…what do you think was the goal here, besides to get me to click on it (which I of course did not)? Was it actually trying to appeal to people who have guilty consciences regarding their laptop cams? I can’t tell for sure without clicking on it, which no, but that ticket number does give it a slight resemblance to the fix-it tickets our IT department sends. Or to people who would be titillated by the word “masturbation”? Or what? Any idea?

    1. Manders*

      It may be an attempt to blackmail the recipient–I’ve heard of similar scams where the goal is to get the person to pay money (or, in grosser cases, send more compromising personal footage) to prevent a video from getting out.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Primary purpose is to get you to click on a poisoned link to load malware into your system.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        That was my guess – but hey, for all I know, somebody could have considered this savvy marketing language.

  192. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Ahhhhhhhhhh. This is late, but, I’ve learned that someone was just let go — “not working out”.

    This was a very junior person, hired about a year ago (+/-) who was assigned to two of my jobs and whose performance I was distinctly unhappy with. Sufficiently unhappy to complain to his supervisor. Determinedly unhappy with enough to follow through on writing a memo for his HR file. Recently, I was filling out a review form for him (we are in the collating part of the review period) and relived both those jobs. My gut hurt slightly at the thought I could get assigned him again. I hate having to work extra hard to get suitable work out of someone and there’s always the risk we go over budget if I have to do too much oversight.

    Turns out several other people had very similar experiences as I did.

    So, although I don’t get joy out of someone fired, I am relieved he is no longer in the pool. I also learned that his supervisor had not recommended him for hiring, but was pushed into taking him. Now, though, no one has to think about him any more.

  193. Maddie Mad*

    Need help dealing with co-worker who will not stop trying to push food on me.

    Her desk is right next to mine and she keeps a bowl of candy or fruit depending on the day on her desk. Literally every time I walk by she yells “Have some X!” (X being whatever the food of the day is). I have turned it down every time. When she comes by my desk with questions she always offers me food – usually whatever it is she is eating (usually Cheetos) – I have turned it down every time. The last straw was today. After a meeting she took one of the left over muffins, ate one bite, decided she didn’t want it, and came over and just PUT IT ON MY DESK, saying “Here, I didn’t want this.”

    What do I say to make her stop? Turning down literally every offer of food she has made me is not working.

    (To add background, she is currently ALSO doing this to co-worker who is muslim and fasting for Ramadan. When I made her take the muffin back she tried to go put it on his desk.)

    1. Glorious discontent*

      Have you asked her to stop? Rather than just declining each individual time, have you actually said “please stop offering me food”? If not, I’d start there.

        1. Amelie*

          Once you have, any time she does it again (and she will, at least until the boundary is firmly established) you can refer back to this: “Kylie, I’ve asked you before not to offer me food. Please respect that.” If you can do that every time, she’ll hopefully get it sooner or later.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      She put a muffin that she took a bite out of on your desk??????
      I’d would have picked up a file folder and pushed that thing into the trash. I might have cleaned my desk with clorox wipes, because germs. Ewww. And I’m pretty sure those actions would stop any future offers. At least I’d hope.

      1. Maddie Mad*

        Yes, and this is not the first time she has tried to push half-eaten food on me, either. But this was the first time she didn’t even ask, just dumped it on my desk.

        If it was just the wrapped candy or apples I could deal with it. Annoying, but easily shrugged off.

    3. UtOh!*

      I have to agree with the other poster, just dump anything she puts on your desk right in the garbage, and yes, speak to her clearly and directly that she should not offer you food any more. And then keep refusing/trashing whatever she pushes on you.

      1. Observer*

        Exactly this. Don’t even discuss the stuff she puts on your desk – straight into the garbage.

        And the ONLY answer she gets to the other stuff. “I’ve asked you to stop pushing food.”

    4. nep*

      Have you said more than just declining food each time? Have you made a blanket request? If yes, what did she say in reaction?
      (This sounds awful–and it’s especially awful of her to put food on the desk of someone who’s fasting.)
      Aside from all this, WHO OFFERS A MUFFIN WITH A BITE TAKEN OUT OF IT?
      Sorry you’re having to deal with this.

      1. Maddie Mad*

        I’ll try the blanket request the next time she offers me food. This is just getting ridiculous.

        I think I’m more on edge today too, because yesterday I was riding in an elevator with her and she started talking about how “she’d never worked in an office with so many overweight people before.” I didn’t even know how to reply. I just was silent until I could get off the elevator and away from her.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          OMG. Next time please ask, “Then why are you trying to push food off on people constantly?”

        2. Woodswoman*

          That sounds like an icky situation. I think it would be good to have this direct conversation at a time when she is not actually offering you food. She clearly ignores you when you decline, and taking her aside to tell her to stop at a neutral time is better. It emphasizes that this is important enough for you to bring it up, and it also doesn’t require her to respond in the moment when she’s got food in her hand. It both gives you a chance to talk calmly when you’re not triggered, and gives her a chance to take it in without having to do something in the moment.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        Offering food all the time to someone who always says “no”: Annoying but normal (alas).
        Offering food to someone who the person knows is fasting: Annoying, ignorant and possibly mean, but still not actually abnormal. (I wish it were abnormal, actually.)
        Offering a used piece of food: Oh, come on. That’s just, you know, icky. And weird.

        1. nep*

          I don’t know…Define ‘normal.’
          I don’t know about normal but the top two aren’t acceptable, that’s for sure.

    5. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      I got this line from a blog and it has helped me tremendously with food pushers.
      “No thank you” (first, second time)
      “No thank you, please don’t offer me food. I am fine.”
      “Hmm, why is it so important to you to influence what I put in my body?” Give her odd look, “That’s so weird.” Then walk off shaking head. This has actually worked for me with family members. I only pull it out after several repeated attempts for people to leave off. (I have celiac disease, used to be obese so lots of family want / need to have influence and I have to set clear boundaries).

      Yeah, it’s a bit dramatic – so is the bitten into muffin. Or you could go with
      “Do I look like a friggen pigeon to ya?” (image of her going to a park and all these co-workers coming around for a morsel) as you do a Michael Jordan and chuck that thing into the trash.

    6. irene adler*

      Don’t accept this behavior! A partially eaten muffin on your desk? No, just no.

      I used to get this behavior myself.

      Folks would hand me their lunch leftovers with the comment, “I can’t finish this. You have it.”
      When I told them “No, thanks” they would push. So I’d tell them to put it into the company refrigerator or just take it home.
      Nope. Didn’t work.
      They did the “leave it on my desk” thing.
      So I’d just toss the food into the trash- making sure they see me do this. That seems to anger them (“You are wasting food!”). So I explain that I can manage my own food TYVM. I don’t push food onto them so don’t do it to me. And if you really had issues with wasting food, you would save your leftovers in the company refrigerator for later consumption and not push your problem onto me.

      Don’t let this gal burden you with this. As others’ have said, make it very clear that you do not want her food offerings. Period. Might even tell her that if you want some candy or fruit from her bowl then you’ll ask for it- no need to offer it.

  194. nep*

    I’m applying for a consultant/writing job that asks candidates for: resume, writing portfolio, and budget.
    I’m going to just find a reasonable template online for the budget; have done those before but only in cases where employer provided a template. But for the writing portfolio–what is the standard for that these days (if there is one)? A page with a list of links, so it’s more direct than just a link to my website? Or do I make an entirely new site that contains only some writings (thinking clippings or contently)?
    I’ve got a website that has About, Reporting/Writing, Photos, Contact…pretty basic. But they’re not asking for all that–only writing portfolio. (I guess there is the option of providing link just to the Writings page of my site.)

  195. nep*

    Any of you familiar with the forms UN asks candidates to fill out? (Includes date of birth, all jobs, salary details, education all the way back to high school…)
    I wonder whether people even look at these things. These forms have been around for what seems like forever.

  196. Epsilon Delta*

    A recruiter contacted me on LinkedIn with a super-vague pitch and when I asked her for a job description this is what she said:

    “Interestingly, this company does not have a job description for any of their roles. Could I set up a time for you to talk with the senior recruiter who works most closely with the company so the two of you can discuss what they look for.”

    I told her it didn’t make sense to have a phone conversation without knowing more about the role and she responded back with a 3 paragraph job description (despite job descriptions not existing at this company!) I almost died laughing.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I would do an internet search on the text and find out where she cribbed the description from. Also “they don’t have job descriptions” – what? I can understand not having a job description for a newly created role, maybe, but any jobs?

  197. UtOh!*

    So all of last week and half of this week I was in a conference room with everyone on our support team doing a rollout. This project I was supposed to have “nothing” to do with because I am involved in every project, but nope, I was pulled in, and then realized I had to take the lead! I have one coworker who complained the entire time we were sequestered in this conference room, every other word out of his mouth was “f*ck”. He clearly is not cut out for this type of work, and I’d love to help him to the door. Manager called me a “rockstar” due to my stepping up, but it just felt very hollow. She’s the type of manager who will give you something to do, and then keep asking for other things, not related to what you are doing. While I can multi-task, I can’t do it at the speed of light. This project was three months late to start, so of course it had to be condensed in 1 and 1/2 weeks…just glad it’s OVER. Now I have to tackle the week and a half worth of work I could not get to because I was stuck on this project. I even canceled a vacation day to help out… I think I’m too accommodating and really don’t know how to say no in a diplomatic way… TGIF!

    1. Maddie Mad*

      I don’t have any really specific advice here, but I feel you. Maybe try to retake your vacation day and distress a bit?

      Good luck.

    2. LQ*

      When boss gives you new things to do, do you ask what the priority should be with your current projects? Or suggest the thing you can let go of? While it might sound silly to you, your boss might not realize how very at capacity you are?

    3. Susan1*

      I agree with the other commenters and would just add – go you! It sounds like someone that they can rely on and trust so hopefully this will pay off in the long run for ya. :)

  198. Overeducated*

    Late because busy but…y’all, another person gave notice at work. I started on a team of 9, and now we’re basically down to 5, with the possibility of losing another, including management. This is a little disastrous. But weirdly, this week it’s been kind of exciting at the same time to try to come together and figure out how other people’s jobs work so we can try to cover the essentials. I know it’ll get old when we’re buried, directionless, and can’t replace them, but for the moment it is engaging as well as terrifying.

  199. Courageous cat*

    Anyone work in media buying? Have an interview coming up soon for an entry-level position (no experience in the field) and would love to hear any and all info. I’m mainly trying to come up with reasons I particularly want this job other than just “I am looking for more challenges”.

  200. Awkward anon*

    I know I’m late to the game, so I hope someone is still reading this…. My work place is high stress (people have had heart attacks), but my boss is very dramatic and one day everything is fine- he’s laughing and going out with the guys, the next day he is threatening to quit because another boss yelled/threatened him. The thing is, my boss is ALWAYS threatening to quit and it’s getting… old. Any way to deal with this? Ignore it?

      1. Anna Held*

        It’s his way of venting. Just nod and go about your business.

        But….you’re looking for a new job, yes? Besides working for a drama llama, heart attacks??? Yikes!

  201. MsChanandlerBong*

    If your employer told you that payday was the 2nd and 16th of the month, when would you expect to receive your pay?

    1. Gatomon*

      The 2nd and the 16th, unless they fell on a weekend or a holiday, and they should explain what happens then (if it’s a Friday do they pay Thursday, for example?)

      Some banks may post sooner than others though. My paycheck usually posts around mid-morning.

    2. OneofthehordeofJohns*

      On that day or on the Friday before if paydays fall on the weekend. With direct deposit the money should be in your account on the day. In my case my credit union almost always shows the deposit happening the day before. Never the following Monday.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Okay, thanks. My company tells people payday is the 2nd and 16th, but my boss doesn’t run payroll until those dates. So depending on when the 2nd and 16th fall, you may not actually get your pay until the 6th or 20th (or even later). Sometimes he doesn’t run payroll until 9:00 at night, which means he misses the cutoff to have the deposit credited that day. If he runs payroll on a Friday at 9 PM, the money doesn’t show up until Tuesday (or Wednesday if Monday was a bank holiday). I find it annoying, but I have started planning for it to be late–I am wondering if we should just start telling people payroll runs on those dates but you may not get the money for up to five business days or whatever. I’ve never worked at a job where “payday is on these dates” meant “we run payroll on those dates, but you won’t have the money until four or five days later.”

        1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          Um…I am not an expert, but I suspect your company is doing it wrong. Like…very wrong. The jobs I’ve had have all been on the “unskilled labor” end of things, but they have all – fast food, local restaurant, data entry temp, retail, call center, library – paid on payday. (Taking weekends, etc, into account.)

          Is there a payroll specialist (or whatever the right job would be) in the house?

  202. Salary negotiating*

    I received a job offer by email this afternoon. I really want to accept, but the salary offered is 25% less than my current salary, and about 20% less than I know they pay someone else in the same role. I feel like it was an intentional lowball given what I know about the current employee’s salary, and I would like to negotiate up to my current salary (though frankly, I’d probably accept a slightly lower salary.) Any tips for a counteroffer email? I was thinking something along the lines of “I am so excited about the opportunity to join XYZ, but the salary I was hoping for was $(current salary plus $10,000), which is more in line with my current salary and my 5 years of experience post-graduate school. Is that something you would be able to accommodate?” I was thinking I’d respond by email since the offer was made by email, but also open to thoughts on whether phone would be more appropriate. Thank you!!

    1. Susan1*

      I like that wording as it leaves the door open for them. I think in terms of email or phone I would go with what you are better at. I personally would stick with email as I can tailor my message. Also maybe they would need to look into it and get back to you, so you’re giving them that space to do so.

    2. H.C.*

      I would stick with email for correspondence, if only for the sakes’ of establishing a paper trail you can reference to. And yes, the employer may have lowballed the initial offer w expectation of you wanting to negotiate higher.

      I’d also look at the benefits too. They may offer a better total compensation package (higher insurance/retirement contributions, subsidies for using public transit, more time off), which may explain the lower salary offer too.

      As for negotiating, I would avoid bringing up your current salary unless you absolutely have to – instead, name your desired salary and use your qualifications justify it (e.g. if the job opening said it requires 2 years experience and you have 5, or if they listed preferred skills that you do have, bring those up!)

    3. Girlwithapearl*

      As a hiring manager, I think what you’ve laid out is smart and good. I would maybe add an offer to discuss this more on a call to keep the conversation open.

      Good luck!

  203. DoctorateStrange*

    I’m starting my full-time job on June 11. This will be my first ever full-time job. I am also taking a class this summer for grad school.

    What are your best tips to work with this?

    1. nep*

      Work with this, meaning, managing time/juggling?
      One thing comes to mind for me: Do everything you have to to get ample sleep. Skimping on sleep to put more hours in on this or that task generally ends up stealing time, because you won’t be nearly as sharp and present as you could be.
      All the best. Congratulations on the job.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        Yep, definitely about managing time/juggling.

        Thank you. It’s sleeping is definitely something that is important to remember!

        1. nep*

          I just think that some people tend to minimise its importance when schedules get really demanding. They think they can cram in more work by subtracting sleep time.
          But in the end sleep doesn’t take time–it gives time.
          (Some will scoff at this, but I’m convinced of it. Even when we don’t feel as if lack of sleep is affecting us, it usually is.)
          Good luck.

  204. Should I take a job for what it can potentially do for me?*

    My current job (which I’ve been at for only 5 months) is close to home, easy, and pays well. I get along with most of the people I work with.

    The potential job pays $1/hr less than what I’m making now, will be challenging (although this is one reason I want to take it), and far from home. I also met with the team during the interview and to be honest I’m not sure if I’ll get along with them. Two other reasons I’m consider it are (1) they offer a lot of overtime, and (2) it’s a big-name company. I’ll also have a title that’ll look impressive on paper that can *potentially* help me get a job I really want after that–assuming I *can* do the job well.

    Thoughts?

    1. Kate Daniels*

      How long is the commute? I always feel like that time needs to be calculated in because it does has value. For instance, to make the math easy, say this job pays $20/hour, so you’d make $160/day. But if it requires an additional hour each way for the commute than your old job that paid $21/hour, then it’s not just a pay cut of $1/hour, but rather you lose an additional 2 hours of time = $40/day (time that could be presumably spent at a second job if you were to so choose… or to have a better work/life balance).

      I’d also be very hesitant about working at a place just because it has a great “name brand.” I worked at a very elite academic institution and quickly realized that they just rode their name brand to get away with paying much less than they should have compared to comparable jobs at other universities.

    2. Susan1*

      I feel like there’s not enough information here. $1 per hour if you’re making $15 is a lot, and if you’re making $30 is not. Also leaving a job after 5 months is generally not good form, but again it’s not clear if it’s a career job or a casual job.

    3. Alternative Person*

      I would be careful because you don’t know how long the overtime will last. Also there’s the potential that you might have to stay at the job a while because you’ll need to have a longer stay on your CV even if the workplace is not great.

    4. Ashk434*

      It depends on what you value most. Just based on what you provided, I would not take the job simply because I value having coworkers I enjoy being around and I also like short commutes. Is there potential for growth in your current role?

  205. Trixie*

    Online class with Lynda.com, any favorites or suggestions? I am looking to sharpen up on Microsoft programs, formatting, etc.

    1. Kate Daniels*

      I am on a major Lynda kick at the moment! I am completing the Become a Programmer pathway because I wanted to learn how to code, and I’ve been happy with the quality so far. You should see if there’s a pathway that collects courses for what you are interested in learning available.

      Does your library or workplace (such as if you are at an academic institution) have a subscription to it? I was so excited when I realized I could access it for free that way!

      2. Argh!*

        I plan to go through the pathway for data science in general. It seems to offer a wide variety of skills outside of the usual stuff. I don’t want to be a programmer, but I want to expand on my skill set.

  206. Zoey "Bookbag" Bartlet*

    Yesterday I was informed that I had received a promotion with a sizable raise effective Monday. I had no idea that I was even being considered for a promotion, because even though it’s an excellent fit, I’ve only been working with this company for less than a year. I was so overwhelmed with appreciation and shock that I started to cry. I hope my supervisors don’t think less of me for having such an emotional reaction (I’m usually not excitable); but I had no idea that my boss was so happy with my work and advocated for me to get this. I never could have imagined feeling this good about myself.
    I want to give a huge thank you to Alison and the AAM community, you all helped me move from ToxicOldJob to WonderfulNewJob, promoted and beyond!

  207. Susan1*

    My old team lead became sour towards me as I was moving into a new role in the same department. She still sits in the cubicle next to mine. I heard her talking about me with a colleague about me, at that cubicle, saying that I’m not the expert, because I was working on a project and she had immediately shot it down and I hadn’t agreed with what she suggested, in a calm and inquiring way. The other colleague is on the new team and didn’t like how I offered to train the team on something only I had been trained on that relates to our work. They are close in general. With the colleague they both said that they can’t wait to retire. (I think she instigated it)

    I didn’t say anything but was visibly cooler towards her since then. It’s been weeks and things haven’t improved.
    a) Should I have spoken to her about it at the time / a day later after cooling down? She has been at the office longer than me and has a stronger relationship with our manager.
    b) Is it possible to improve the situation and if so, how?

    I’m perplexed by this situation. I’m not sure if it’s possible to repair the relationship, but I want to be on good terms with someone who is my cubicle neighbour! Right now we just say good morning / evening and things used to be so much smoother. She used to be nice to me. :(

    1. Zoey "Bookbag" Bartlet*

      That’s unfortunate!
      I had a similar situation with a coworker I work near but not with (he was gossiping loudly about me to a crony about something I said). It felt awful, but after speaking with my work-friend, she reminded me that the thing he was upset about was 1) part of my job 2) not a big deal and 3) his emotional management issue was not a reflection of my professional behavior. So I decided to assume that something was going on with him (bad day, professional disappointment, etc). His crony, who I don’t know well and hadn’t crossed, was simply doing the human thing of agreeing with him and piling on. This realization helped me get past the comment.
      To improve our relationship, I gave him some space for a few days, and then started showing him kindness (making an effort to say a genuine good morning, and good evening, asking him about his weekend and follow up questions) and slowly things thawed. He told me he was stressed out about a project and I was even able to help him with it, He’s not my favorite person and we are not work-friends, but we are cordial now and I feel a lot better about sitting near him.
      It seems like you were doing your job by sticking up for your project and asking questions about her concern. Also, I would be thrilled if I had a colleague who received special training who offered to share what they learned (I may need to politely decline if my workload didn’t allow me to take her up on it at the time). So I think your colleagues were out of line and not being professional. I would suggest treating her the same way you did before she made her comment, and hopefully she will be able warm up to you again in time. I’m sure that at this point she’s embarrassed she made the comment, which could also be contributing to her coolness. I hope things get better and that you are near people who are good and supportive even if you sit next to someone who was such a jerk!

  208. Tones*

    Jeans at work?

    When I started at my current employer over 2 years ago, I spent the first few weeks observing what people were wearing to get a sense of what was appropriate. What I saw was a lot of looks out of an REI catalog, pretty laid back but still put together. No leggings, ripped clothes, etc but a lot of people wore dark wash jeans all throughout the week, including at least one man under my manager. So I did the same thing, dark washed jeans most days of the week, thinking I didn’t need to seek permission for this. Fast forward to my 6 month review and my supervisor is giving me the mortifying feedback from my manager that I cannot wear jeans anymore because they aren’t professional! She advised me to not cross our common manager because she has been known to make life hard on her employees if they don’t do what she wants. Seeing that this was not my hill to die on, I went out and bought some chinos.

    Fast forward 2 years and most of this managers staff has turned over. There are lots of new faces in our department and lots of people are still wearing jeans. I talked with one of the new hires under our managers who wears jeans most days of the week and he told me he has never ever been talked to about his attire, though another woman told me the manager told her not to wear jeans. My chinos are getting worn out and I’m doing more field work than ever and look ridiculous so dressed up on construction sites. I want to go back to wearing dark washed jeans, how do I approach this? Do I ask my manager (my supervisor made it extremely clear she didn’t care what I wore and this was 100% the manager)? Just start wearing them more?

    1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Is there an official dress code? Unless the people in your department are reporting to different people/have super different job descriptions, I’d think that there would be a dress code that applies to everyone. Which makes it really weird that you were told no jeans when other people clearly wear them.

      You do mention that a woman was told not to and a man has never been told not to. Is jeans wearing only allowed for men? (Can places have gender based dress codes?)

    2. Argh!*

      Let me guess… you’re female?

      We always want to give the boss the benefit of the doubt, but sexism is alive and well in the workplace, and women managers are just as guilty as male managers.

      1. Susan1*

        Good catch – this is the only thing that makes sense to me. Is it possible for you to wear jeans and if she mentions it again mention that you’ve noticed men wearing jeans and is there any reason why you can’t? Perhaps this is also a place to bring in HR…

  209. Nerdy Library Clerk*

    Long time lurker, first time poster…. Any advice on how to deal with a very odd obnoxious coworker situation?

    I have a coworker who, nearly every time I work with her, comments on my work – things that would be complements except for the circumstances. Like, she’ll comment on how fast I’m working when she’s not doing any work. (And there is very much work that both of us are supposed to be doing. Except I’m working for two and she’s just fiddling around, accomplishing little to nothing.)

    I don’t know if it’s because she’s aware of the big discrepancy in the amount of work we’re doing and somehow these comments are all she can think of, or if she recognizes that it irritates me that she’s not working and thinks that the comments are some kind of apology, or if she’s passive-aggressively trying to make me stop working so she doesn’t feel guilt/look bad/whatever.

    The thing is, she has some health problems so I try to cut her slack on how much work she does, but it’s often painfully little and then she goes and pours salt in the wound with these weird comments.

    I don’t know what to say to her and I’m afraid I’m going to lose my temper and say something unprofessional. But I don’t even know if I should respond at all.

    (Our manager is aware of her performance issues and is trying to work with her. But the comments. Augh. And I feel weird about bringing those up because it sounds really odd to complain about someone commenting on how hard you’re working.)

    Any thoughts?

    1. nep*

      Is there any chance she deep down wishes she had the capacity to work as fast/efficiently as you, and the remarks stem from that? Or is that clearly not the case because she’s quite purposefully doing even less than her health issues allow?

      1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        I want to say she’s clearly doing less, but health issues are hard to gauge. Which is why I try to just mentally wave off her not working with the fact that I don’t know that she’s not in a lot of pain or something. But there are times when she will do far below the bare minimum she (or any of us) should be doing, to the point that if her health issues are affecting her that much it would probably make more sense for her to just go home. (We have paid sick time and its unlikely that she’s used all of hers. She hasn’t been out that much and our time accumulates every pay period.)

        But, and maybe this just on me, it’s much harder to just go “well, maybe she’s really feeling bad” and ignore that I’m the only one working when she comments on the fact that I’m working. If I knew how to get her to not do that, the times I work with her would be much less stressful for me.

      2. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        I guess that wasn’t quite a complete answer. There are times when she has done no work at all for up to an hour. (We’re scheduled on specific tasks in hourly intervals.) I…well, honestly, I would not go to work if I felt so bad that I literally could not work. And it’s hard for me to believe that anyone else would, either. Which makes it very hard not to think that, health issues aside, she’s doing as little as she thinks she can get away with. But that’s probably unkind of me.

        1. Susan1*

          Sounds that way from how you describe the whole situation. I think the only thing you can do is wait her out… until she’s asked to leave..

        2. Argh!*

          If she’s been employed there for more than a year, she should be eligible for intermittent FML time. You can’t ask her about it, but you can suggest it.

          I think in your place I would try to respond with a wisecrack, like “I’m training for the Library Olympics!” But then, I respond to many things with a wisecrack!

        3. nep*

          This sounds stressful in many different ways (you’re handling your work, you’re seeing her do little to none, you’re put on the spot by her on a regular basis and in an odd way, you’re being kind and careful not to offend…)
          I hope you’ll find a resolution soon.

          1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

            I have a sneaking suspicion she’s waiting to pass some retirement age thing (or number of years worked). But I really hope she hits whatever it is soon. I don’t know how my coworkers who work with her even more manage. The couple of hours a day our shifts overlap is quite enough.

            I just wish I could at least get her to not make the comments. I wish I were better at random small talk. Keeping her busy talking about the weather or whatever wouldn’t fix that she’s not working, but at least she wouldn’t be calling attention to it. I’ll have to think about what I could mention or ask her about that might keep her talking for a while.

    2. Gotham Bus Company*

      Next time, say, “I have to rush through my work so I have time to do your work.”

  210. PerkyRN*

    How do I gracefully let management know that a co-worker is utterly toxic?

    Recently, I got a new co-worker. I was excited initially (we’re short, she has lots of experience, etc) but damn. I am not exaggerating when I say that this woman is the most toxic person I’ve ever met.

    Some highlights:
    -Butting in on people’s private conversations with inappropriate non-sequiturs, mostly about herself.
    -Insulting people’s work (“they never do X!”) while simultaneously complaining when she’s called out for her lapses (“she told me I need to do Y! How rude!”) and insisting this isn’t hypocrisy, even when these are LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME TASK.
    -Deciding that some policy is “stupid” or “annoying” and thus she won’t abide by it. Loudly complaining when she gets pushback for this.
    -Saying awful things. Reducing co-workers to needing to flee from her presence to go cry (seriously, she told a co-worker it was a GOOD THING a friend of his had died of an opiate overdose and that his friend had been a “dirtbag” and that society was “better off” without him). Weird racial comments intermixed with stories about how she’s so non-racist she only dates men of [race that she isn’t], coupled with loud commentary about said men’s genitals (for the record: she’s white). Homophobic comments. She doesn’t confine this conduct to co-workers, but displays this to clients as well.

    I’ve filed HR complaints (and encouraged others to do so) for the actionable items and also talked to management. One assistant manager who I have a good rapport with has openly expressed disgust at her and has said she’s a horrible person who does horrible work. I get that these things can take time, but how long before I see the last of this person? I’m worn out from having to clean up her messes.

    1. Argh!*

      Once it’s in the hands of management, you won’t know a thing. They’ll keep it private unless they need to ask you a question.

    2. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Yegad. I certainly hope she’s on her way out and you just won’t know until she’s escorted out. That is one huge pile of awful.

    3. Carbovore*

      I think you’ve done all you can do in terms of making it known to higher-ups, now all you can do is manage your own feelings and reactions to it to keep yourself sane. My office has a person that joined our office a year ago and I figured out rather quickly that she is intensely negative and looks for all opportunities to blame others for her shortfalls. (Doesn’t sound nearly as bad as yours though!) But what I started doing that helped immensely was stop dealing with the coworker as much as possible. I’m mostly lucky in that I don’t rely on her as a partner for any of my work so it wasn’t too hard to do. I focused on making sure my own projects succeeded and stopped worrying about anything she was doing and I made sure to not have personal chats with her. (It’s hard for someone to make personal digs at you if they don’t know squat about you!)

      An aside: why are you cleaning up her messes? Or how is it getting dumped on you to do? Those are maybe the better questions. If you’re cleaning up messes of your own volition because you think it’s the right thing to do, here’s something you can do immediately: stop cleaning up the messes!

      I say this as someone who is a “right-fighter” myself–it took me months to train myself to stop intervening on things that perhaps were for the good of the office or the company mission but really weren’t solving the issues and was only burning myself out and not the person causing the messes.

      1. PerkyRN*

        When I say “clean up her messes” I mean mostly “calm down an upset client,” not literally picking up her trash. That isn’t much of a problem, as one of her “things” is obsessive cleaning, to the point that people frequently have to go rooting through the trash to find things she threw out.

        1. Liz*

          I don’t think Carnivore meant literally cleaning up after her.

          If you are stepping in to placate clients you maybe preventing managers from having to deal with the messes and are therefore taking away some of their motivation for addressing it.

          I’d make myself as scarce as possible when she is working with a client so you don’t see the mess. And I’d take AAM advice to ask a manager, I can keep cleaning up these issues but it is taking me away from my assigned job, how should I prioritize?

        2. Carbovore*

          Ah yes, I meant the more figurative (and not literal) messes, like Liz replied below. To elaborate more, like Liz points out, making yourself a little more scarce in the face of her messes might help twofold: 1) you’ll reduce your stress and 2) others might be forced to deal with the messes for once and if this includes management, even better!

          If there’s one thing I’ve learned, most managers won’t intervene if it seems like everything is getting done and they didn’t have to get involved to accomplish it (even though it’s at the expense of your own sanity!)… so maybe the toxicity of this person will become more apparent once they have to more directly deal with her.

  211. Liz*

    On man guys, I keep forgetting to share this! I tickled a coworker!

    I have read so many things here that taught me to never do that, but I did.

    Scene: 3 coworkers chatting in the hallway.
    I want to walk past and waited a beat for them to shift a bit so I could pass.

    One woman shifted but to block my way. She put one hand on each wall of the hall and said something silly about not letting me by.

    I said I had to go, but she did not move. So I tickled her under the arm!

    I cannot believe I did that. It was a few weeks ago now and everyone is over it. But i am still shocked at myself.

    1. Thlayli*

      Ok so you shouldn’t have done it, but she was way out of order in the first place. Don’t bear yourself up about it

      1. Liz*

        Thanks Thlayli!
        It was a good lesson for me – I was really more surprised than anything. I read about pranks and tickling ppl and think, “who would do that!?” It was easier for it to happen than I imagined.

    2. Observer*

      Is this typical behavior? Not you, your coworker? That’s an incredibly obnoxious thing to do, so I’m wondering if it’s not part of a larger pattern.

  212. Christian*

    I recently had a very …interesting and disappointing discussion with my managers. My goal at this firm was to advance to mid-level, e.g. a team lead or project manager. Instead, I was pushed to a more technical role – while I like Software engineering this is not my career goal for the rest of my lifetime.
    Last month, our firm announced that a new leadership position would be created where I did not apply – it was too obviously written for a colleague who owned that position for months. That was perfectly fine for me. But that they did ask another colleague if he wants to get the junior leadership role was a blow to me.
    When I asked why the did not even consider me they uttered surprise that I could ever want such a position – I am too good a technical jobs to even consider me for leadership positions. There were a lot more points, but they boil down to the fact that I will never advance at this firm.

    So I guess I will go job hunting soon – but I am unsure what kind of job I should seek. While I could apply to lots (very well paid) technical jobs right away, I did not want to be stuck at a technical role, leading teams is something I want to do. Any suggestions what kinds of jobs I should look out for? My concern is that I don’t have enough actual leadership and project management expertise to apply to such jobs right away.
    I considered moving into consulting to get more project management experience but with a small (1year) child that’s difficult at best.

    1. Someone else*

      I don’t know how to help you, but I’ve got the opposite problem. I was hired into what was supposed to be an engineering role, and they keep having me cover PM responsibilities “just until we fill x role” or “just while we’re restructuring”. I’ve made it clear I have zero interest in PM or management and just want to go deeper in the technical stuff and they keep dragging me into both.
      So I guess maybe you should look for a technical role that says it includes some PM-like duties? That’s I started in but later moved to a straight engineering role, except some of the “old” responsibilities haven’t dropped off yet. But I imagine if you started in something that’s a bit of both it’d leave room for you to grow more into one or the other down the line, if not at the same org, at least then you’d have the experience under your belt a bit.

    2. Gotham Bus Company*

      It’s a classic case of “We can’t (or won’t) promote you because you’re too good in your current job.” Managers who say this believe it will motivates people to keep doing their jobs well, but it really just motivates people to leave.

  213. Triple Anon*

    I know this comes up a lot here, but how do you deal with condescension at work? Have you ever succeeded in getting someone to stop acting condescending towards you?

    1. Carbovore*

      I have one coworker that I’ve had for a long time who I used to legitimately hate and it kept me up at night and it was because he could be condescending and at times sexist. Now I don’t really mind him and while one of the top reasons for that is I am no longer support staff for him and his office is physically farther now, I would say the greatest reason was I stopped thinking about it in terms of getting him to stop. (I’d tried that many times. Either I’d call him out on it, deftly ignore him, or a few times mentioned it to our boss who is a whole post on her own and wasn’t very sympathetic.)

      So instead, I just changed my reactions to it and outlook on it. When he was condescending about something, I just wouldn’t react in the moment. (If the goal was to piss me off or “put me in my place,” I didn’t want him to think he’d succeeded.) I wouldn’t address any of the condescending parts, just the question or task at hand. Or sometimes I just regain my position in the conversation and say, “Hmm, I’m busy with project X right now, can I get back to you on that?” (This coworker’s particular flavor of condescension was treating me like his Junior Miss secretary who should be so grateful to do his work and be bossed around by him. But I was support staff to about 5 others, not just him. By flipping the conversation and taking control of my own workload, it sort of neutralized his condescension. Instead of saying, “Oh, yes, sir! When can I start on it, sir!” I would continue the conversation as if the power dynamic was completely different.)

      And outside of that, I just imagine him as the annoying court jester who occasionally pops in to say something ridiculous to me that I can roll my eyes about later. :)

  214. Julie*

    We’ve been recently told that our department is going to be going through a “transformation”. Now, upper management is asking us each to send them a picture of us. I’m not very fond of having my picture taken to begin with even family photos, so any thoughts?

    1. Thlayli*

      what do they want the photo for? Is it just to jog their memories of who is who while they decide on the reorg, or is it for an official tree of the new organisation and will be visible to everyone?

      Either way it doesn’t have to be a new photo.

      If it’s the former, just send them any photo you have that looks like you.

      If it’s the latter, then send them a scan of any photo you have that you actually like.

    2. Gotham Bus Company*

      Depending on who ends up being laid off, their request for photos could open the door to claims of discrimination. Make sure to archive both that email and your reply to it.

  215. Squarp*

    Anon Anony’s story about being disliked by co-workers reminds me of something that happened to me years ago when I started my first real-world job, fresh out of college.

    I was one of a number of new-hires, all around the same age and education. Someone arranged a group bowling activity for an evening. I was young, single, and far from home, so I welcomed the chance to socialize.

    We met at a small pub, and then headed off to the bowling alley. I had a small car and ended up driving alone.

    Short after arriving, I became aware that one of the other new-hires had experienced a traffic accident between the pub and the bowling alley. No injuries – someone had apparently hit them from behind while waiting at a traffic light. And I was told that one of my co-workers was telling people that the accident was my fault. Which left me at a loss because I had nothing to do with the accident.

    I’ll follow up if there is any interest, but I’ll leave the story here and ask how any of you would have handled things if it had been you?

    1. irene adler*

      I’d want to know who is saying that the accident was my fault and find out why they are saying this. Did I do something I wasn’t aware of ,while driving over to the bowling alley, that caused this accident? I’d want to know this.
      There’s insurance to consider here. If I in fact caused this accident, then I need to alert my insurance company. So I need to know exactly how I am at fault. And I need to hear this from those who believe I am at fault.

      Otherwise, this is someone trashing me for what appears to be no reason other than a grudge against me. In which case, let’s clear up this grudge. Now.

    2. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      If I had a common make of car, I’d probably assume it was car confusion (whoever hit them by chance had the same make of car and the person spreading the story connected unconnected dots), but I’d still want to clear it up because what, no. In fact, my response on being told that would probably literally be: “What? Why?”

      (What did come of it? Was there some simple explanation like that, or was one of your new co-workers just completely off the rails?)

    3. Squarp*

      What happened was: I did confront the person who was telling people I caused the accident – she pretty much blew me off, insisting she was correct. I ended up leaving early, I was very upset because I’d just started this job and I was going to be working with this woman and the others for the indefinite future.

      I later discovered that this woman had a real tendency towards drama, backstabbing, and other such negative behaviors; this was not just my opinion, as time went by I discovered that other people had issues with her. I did my best to avoid her.

      I’ll concede that there’s a small chance she really did see something that led her to believe I caused the accident – I never figured that aspect out. But mostly I remember it as something like getting mugged: I was standing there, minding my own business, and suddenly someone I barely know is telling all of these people I’ve just met that I’ve done this rotten thing.

      This happened long ago, and I lived through it. I’m mentioning it here because I’m curious if anyone else has had such an encounter, and if so, how best to handle such a thing?

      1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        Where was the person who had the accident in all this? Because if I was in a minor accident and a new coworker was randomly blaming another new coworker, I’d be pretty freaked out. Accidents, even minor ones, are upsetting enough, but then to have someone claim that the other person involved was…someone completely different from the actual other person involved would be beyond bizarre. And surely, they knew it wasn’t you, so… what the heck.

  216. Carbovore*

    I wonder, how do you guys deal with (or have dealt with) narcissistic coworkers? Bosses in particular?

    I have worked for my current boss about 6 years now and have only recently put it together that she has severe narcissistic tendencies and explains a lot of what has made working for her hell. (I spent one weekend reading tons of articles and listening to podcasts and saying to myself, “Whoa, this is Boss!”) A few like-minded coworkers I shared the research with completely agreed. Here’s an article if you need to know more about narcissism in the workplace: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201505/10-signs-your-boss-manager-is-narcissist

    I’ve mostly figured out how to deal with her from all this research and it’s improved my outlook considerably but I’m still curious, have any of you had this experience? How did you deal with it? What things worked and what didn’t?

  217. buttercup*

    I’m kind of late, but i am curious to hear what people have to think about my question about promotions at work.

    I’m in my first corporate job and have been here about 1.5 years. I have observed a trend – My manager makes it a point to be very selective about promotions because 1) budget limits and 2) she only wants to promote people who truly performed above and beyond their currently role’s expectations. I generally understand this logic, but the result is that everyone else who doesn’t get promoted leaves in droves a few months after their annual review cycle. Our turnover is so bad that it causes workload issues. Are there any best practices out there to prevent something like this?

    My personal outlook on this is while i understand my manager’s POV, I also understand the discontent from the employee’s perspective. Our job functions are kind of unique in that the results aren’t exactly quantifiable. In addition, each of us have different strengths that make us all decent performers, but in different ways. We also all carry the same workload, so it’s kind of un-intuitive how our manager decides one employee is worthy of a promotion over another.

    1. LovecraftInDC*

      It sounds to me like there might be something more going on than just the promotions. By promotions do you mean raises as well? IE nobody is getting even something like cost of living adjustments? If that’s the case, then that’s a major problem and they’ll keep bleeding people until somebody in management does something about it. No raise is technically a pay decrease due to inflation.

      But if people get raises and are just leaving because they didn’t get the promotion…that’s really weird. I’d expect a few people who believed themselves to be next in line to decide that they could find a better position elsewhere, but people leaving in droves seems outside of the norm. Makes me wonder if maybe they are very unhappy but think additional money would compensate them for it, if they’re just getting paid WELL below market rate so they decide to pick up and go elsewhere, or if they really don’t like the people being promoted.

      Also, you said it was ‘unintuitive’, but you also said they promoted people who performed above and beyond; that doesn’t seem all that unintuitive to me?

      1. Thlayli*

        Yes this. People don’t tend to leave in droves if they are not promoted after a year. They do tend to leave in droves if they aren’t getting any raises at all. Inflation is a real thing and cost of living does increase every year. Also people get more experience and are therefore more valuable every year. My hunch Is it’s not about the lack of promotion, it’s about a lack of raises.

        1. A Nickname for AAM*

          Yes, I just found out that my work has a policy that we are not allowed to get even cost-of-living/merit raises (like, the 2-3% you get for occupying your seat satisfactorily) unless the entire organization meets budget. Not your location, not your department…the whole organization. So if a branch a hundred miles away catches fire, you don’t get a raise that year because they didn’t meet budget.

          I think this is why I’m one of the youngest in my subject area, but have the most knowledge. All the ones who know their stuff are leaving.

  218. Das*

    How do you get past a lack of confidence as a job-seeker?

    I graduated from college in 2013, and I think job searching during the recession really took a toll on my confidence – I was completely unable to find a job during college (even my university’s work study wouldn’t give me a job), which I’m still embarrassed about, and it took over a year after graduation for me to land a full-time position…through a connection, which I’m even more embarrassed about. I produce good work, according to every performance evaluation I’ve had, so I have faith in myself as an employee. I believe in myself to be able to adapt, learn quickly, and become a productive worker once I’m hired. I just don’t ever seem to think most places would choose to hire me to begin with, especially because my current position is pretty administrative and I don’t have much in the way of industry-specific skills or knowledge.

    Whenever I look at job postings, I feel like there must be 5000 other applicants who have more experience than I do, know more than I do, or will work for less money than I want. (Which is not to say that my salary requirement is particularly high, but I live in a large city that recent graduates flock to, and I feel like they must have more training than I do from college/internships AND are more willing to accept an entry level salary. My current salary is entry level because my company doesn’t give raises, so I’m hoping for at least small boost.) If I don’t meet every single requirement or skill, I won’t apply because I believe there’s someone out there who does. I have participated in hiring for my department and know for a fact that job requirements are much less strict than I’m making them out to be in my head, but I’m convinced that nobody wants to train me, and nobody wants to deal with a colleague who needs to be trained as much as I would.

    Needless to say, I haven’t gotten very far with my job search. Does anyone have any advice for getting past that mental hurdle?

    1. Teapot Magazines*

      First of all, I hope that I’m not assuming anything, but this article might help: https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified

      For a short while, I was in a rough spot – I didn’t have my masters degree, but I had about 5 years of part time experience and a year of full time experience in my industry. My industry is really weird in that jobs either require a HS diploma and pay quite low, or they require a masters degree and pay very high. I graduated with my bachelor’s and needed a higher paying job to be able to afford the masters. I felt very awkward applying for jobs asking for a MA since I didn’t meet the requirement. But my manager at the time pointed something out –
      “If you don’t apply, you won’t get the job. If you do apply you /might/ get the job.” I started looking at it as though I HAD to apply if I wanted even a shot. And it took awhile. If you feel like you can’t make the jump on your own, I’d also suggest going to a local career center or public library. There will be someone in those buildings that can help you apply for a job – if you bring in a resume and a job posting and you just need someone to give you the final push, they are 100% going to be so happy to help. Many of my friends work in those positions and they say that they love it when someone comes in with a career issue beyond the “I’ve never used a computer before, I need you to help me fill out an online application” request.

      Start looking at the job description and think about how you’ve done SIMILAR things to the requirements they want. I applied for a job outside of my field once and wrote a cover letter that explained how I had done very similar things to the job requirements and then discussed how easy it would be to transfer those skills to their field. I didn’t get the job, but in the interview they told me that over 200 people had applied and the reason that I was in the top 5 candidates was because of the cover letter. I may have not gotten the position, but it was a huge confidence booster! If you think that you could do the job because it’s SIMILAR to your job, tell the hiring manager that in your cover letter. They’ll then know that they have to train you, but it wouldn’t be training someone who’s starting from scratch.

      Finally, in regards to your comment “If I don’t meet every single requirement or skill, I won’t apply because I believe there’s someone out there who does.” Get rid of that comment from your brain and embrace your other comment, “I believe in myself to be able to adapt, learn quickly, and become a productive worker.” I got my masters and I’m in a management role now and recently replaced one of my reports. I had someone with a bachelor’s degree and 20 years of work experience apply. I also had someone who had dropped out of college, and only had been in a semi-related field for a year apply. I hired the second one because they were flexible, demonstrated that they learned quickly and had excellent communication skills. The first one was more qualified, but their interview answers demonstrated a person who was resistant to change, didn’t like learning new things and wasn’t good at customer service.

      You are more qualified than you think and you can overcome the mental block! It will feel uncomfortable at first, and you won’t get a job straight off the bat, but keep chipping away. I promise that if you dedicate yourself to job searching, something amazing will turn up!! (Also, if you think that part of this might stem from anxiety, check with your employer to see if they have an EAP, which will set you up with a few free counseling sessions, which might be all that you need for a little outside encouragement.)

    2. buttercup*

      Ack I sympathize completely. It took me forever to get my first salaried job. I have even been rejected for retail jobs and internships while in college which I was 100% qualified to do. For some context, I am a shy, nonwhite female, and I’m pretty sure it affected people’s perceptions of me. I will tell you what I learned from experience so far, hiring is extremely biased and usually *not* a reflection of your competence (of course it depends on the industry and specific organization). People hire who they like/are or want to be friends with. I currently work in the private sector and have lost count of the number of confident white frat guys with useless degrees who get hired based on by their peers and on potential alone, in fields from policy to engineering to data analysis. They are extremely mediocre at their jobs, but are just good at presenting themselves in a way that makes them look competent. I have gotten passed over for jobs and seen much less qualified applicants get the position, because they had networking connections or were just more likeable.

      In the way of actionable advice, continuously remind yourself of your strengths and accomplishments and find ways to incorporate them into your cover letters and interview answers. Practice your interviews until you feel comfortable. You really have to get out of your head, which I understand is hard to do when you typically have low self-esteem, but your insecurity is not a reflection of your actual abilities. If others can do it, so can you. Most of these other people getting jobs aren’t miraculous prodigies, even though that is what your low self-esteem brain is telling you to believe. They are just good at presenting themselves, and you can easily become better at that too.

      1. buttercup*

        Actually, I want to be a little clearer on something I said: instead of biased, I want to emphasize hiring is extremely subjective. So if a hiring manager thinks you’re not qualified for their role, it doesn’t mean you are not qualified for any role period. It’s just unique to that HM’s preferences. I’ve been rejected for many jobs, but have been hired into similar positions in other companies who thought I was the best thing to have happened to them, even though I got rejected from the same types of jobs in other companies. Hope that makes sense!

        Another thing I want to emphasize: Job descriptions are rarely a good reflection of what the job description is actually like, so don’t take them too literally! Employers rarely expect someone to fit 100% of the job description, otherwise they would never hire anyone.

  219. BPW*

    I’m late to the party as well, but I have a situation that occurred this week that I just wanted people’s opinions on if anyone’s still around.

    I’m looking to leave my current management job for a higher level of management (particularly in the pay area – I’m currently paid about half of the market value). I applied for two positions – a lower senior management position that I was juusst barely qualified for and a lower mid-level position that’s a step down in job description but a huge step up in pay. They are both at the same company, but at different branches in a rather large county system. I applied for the lower position not just for pay – I’ve heard from people that work in the company that it can be hard to come in as a manager and that you have to work your way up, no matter your qualifications, so since the job was in an area that I enjoy, I figured it’d be a nice place to stay for a few years while I work upwards.

    The higher position is still on the job board since they take applications for an entire month. The lower position was taken down and I had a phone interview a few days ago. I felt like the interview went very well, the manager complimented me on my prepared-ness, said that she was impressed by my qualifications and that she thought I’d be a really good fit for her branch. She asked if I had applied to any other positions at the company and I said that I had applied for the higher position. We moved on to a different question and at the end of the interview she said “I’m really glad that you’ve applied and I think we’ll be working together quite soon, whether you work for me in this position or you work with me as the manager of [location].” Within 12 hours I had a short email from her saying that she decided to move on with a different pool of candidates for the next round of interviews, no other explanation. Did I read too much into the interview?

    1. Serious Pillowfight*

      That’s … odd. It’s possible the manager liked you/enjoyed talking to you and was saying things based on that, but she really should have known to be careful of how her comments might come across. But maybe this means the higher position wants you, or that she recommended you for it? I think you did read too much into the interview, but through NO fault of your own. Anyone in your position would have thought that sounded very promising! But paraphrasing what Alison always says, you’re not a shoo-in until you’re shooed in. But yeah, hiring managers need to watch what they say and hold back a little until they’re sure they’re moving forward with someone.

    2. Frustrated Optimist*

      Hiring managers will say all kinds of thoughtless things that to any reasonable person would certainly sound encouraging.

      My favorite one from recently: During a phone interview (on a Monday) that was going really well, I asked about next steps. The hiring manager said, “Are you sitting down? Because we’re going to conduct second interviews Wednesday and Thursday of this week.”

      Yup, you guessed it. No invitation for a second interview. Obviously, a statement like that provides no guarantee, but I’d say it’s *pretty misleading.*

      Your story sounds even worse, though, frankly. I’m sorry they got your hopes up.

  220. RV*

    I’m considering a career change and was thinking of perhaps moving into Learning & Development, I’ve found a weekend and evening course that would allow me to gain a qualification and join the professional association in my country but am a little unsure as to whether I should proceed or not.

    Training co-workers has always been something I’ve enjoyed in my current job (which I don’t necessarily love overall) but I’d be interested to hear from people in the field, what sort of personalities tend to work well in these kind of roles? Im ISFJ for anyone who is into Myers Briggs!

  221. Serious Pillowfight*

    Didn’t get a chance to update yesterday about work, but I have some potentially good news. I went to the interview last week and thought it went well. I got the sense they were genuinely interested in me and that it wasn’t just a courtesy interview due to my former co-worker who works there talking me up. Two of my references told me they have already been contacted. The job and company sound even cooler than I thought, and potential opportunities within the company sound amazing. Now I just have to wait and hope the reference checks go well. No reason to think they won’t, but you never know. I know first-hand that one slightly off answer can tank your chances. (Had an in-person interview several years ago with a company I was referred to, everyone liked me and wanted to hire me, talks of extending an offer happened, then an out-of-state higher-up didn’t like one answer I gave during a phone interview and that was that.)

    For a few hours yesterday, I also met with a friend and former co-worker who left my current company a year or two ago. Made me feel even better about leaving. She was conflicted as well because the work we do is pretty cool, but I received further confirmation that I’m being taken advantage of and underpaid. Plus the industry is floundering and even if it does recover, the particular job I do is still likely to be eliminated. It may be a “labor of love,” but I’ve been there 12 years and I’m running out of love. I’m not 22 anymore and I need to think about my future. I can’t be hitting brick walls and having doors closed in my face every time I try to ask for a decent wage, only to turn around and find out others close to my age and with my same level of experience make more. There’s no reason for it. I work hard and I have a ton of varied experience within the company, which higher-ups have confirmed, yet they don’t seem to want to compensate me for it.

    I was able to extricate myself from the pay cut situation I mentioned in earlier threads. The person they hired to replace me pulled out, citing health insurance costing too much. So I decided to stay where I am. (Plus, I figured if I do get the new job, it’ll be less disruptive than if I’d moved to a new internal gig and started training for that, and THEN left.)

    So, time to look forward!

  222. Aealias*

    So, I know this is really late, but….

    I’m a member of a non-profit organization that recently nominated the CEO to a position on the board. Members were assured that this is not-uncommon, and helps ensure that the board and management are aligned on policy issues.

    Does anyone else have experience with this? It seems like it might put the CEO in either an awkward position or an excessively powerful one. The org’s CEO has been really effective according to all the evidence so far. Is my discomfort just uninformed paranoia?

  223. dragon_heart*

    Also a bit late but I have a weird question.

    Have you ever experienced setting up an online interview, but the interviewer was a no show? This happened to me this week. I was supposed to have an in depth technical interview. I set up a time which was confirmed by HR via email. (We emailed on Tuesday, the interview date was Friday).

    She then said she would send me an invite link (no, we aren’t using Skype or Hangout, they have their own proprietary video conferencing software) within the week but she never did. I emailed her about it on Thursday but no response. I thought OK, maybe she is absent that day?

    Friday came and went, and no link and no email. ( I couldn’t call her, she is in another country) I sent her an email 15 minutes before the call, and 15 minutes after the scheduled time but nothing. Should I write this one off?

    1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I suppose it depends on whether they respond next week. Maybe something happened (interviewer was out sick and forgot to tell someone to cancel with you, they had a problem with their internet/phones, some other local emergency ???) and your interview just slipped through the cracks. But if you don’t hear anything next week then I’d assume it’s a place you don’t really want to work, if they ghost potential employees.

  224. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

    So I got an email on Tuesday from someone I met at a professional development thing last year, saying that they thought I would be a good fit for an upcoming project and asking if I’d be interested in applying.

    My first thought was “oh no, I’ve misrepresented my skills and experience somehow! They are going to find out what a fraud I am!”.

    Impostor syndrome sucks, y’all.

    But I did email back and answer their questions/say “yes that sounds awesome”, so perhaps I will hear something back? It is the first time I have been in the position of possibly being headhunted away from a current job that I actually like, so I am in totally new territory for me. Also neither job is a permanent contract and I will most likely want to apply for jobs with my current employer again in the future, so it’s potentially a bit of a tricky situation if I do get an offer from the other place.

  225. Mimmy*

    Slight dilemma: Do I want to accept more hours at work knowing that I’m not looking to stay long-term.

    Right now, my job classification is such that I am limited to a certain number of hours per state fiscal year and I get no benefits. I’ve generally been working 3 days a week, on alternate days. Because I’ve been doing well, my supervisor recently asked if I want to move up to the next level–it’d entail working 4 days a week with no limit on number of hours per year, and I’d get some minimal benefits.

    Herein lies the dilemma: My current arrangement has worked out pretty well–while I would certainly love to work full time/near full-time (it’s been years!), the job is one that could easily lead to burnout because 1) it’s a little boring and 2) it also makes me very anxious at times (don’t want to give too much details for fear of identifying myself). On the one hand, I have a real hunger to do more, and unless I transfer to a different part of my agency, I don’t see much in the way of growth opportunity or chances to do something different. On the other hand, this is probably going to be the easiest job I’ll ever have, and I can see my supervisor saying as much.

    Would it be worth it to accept the increased hours knowing that I don’t really want to be at my current job long-term? My supervisor does know that I want to do more, but maybe she’s hoping the addition of benefits will be an incentive for me to stay. Plus, she knows I’m attending a major conference in a couple weeks and started throwing out ideas of things they may have me do. However, she’s done that before, and nothing ever materializes, so I’m not getting my hopes up.

    If I do accept the increase, the change will not be immediate–it’s a state job, so it’ll be a process, but she’d probably have me work more hours anyway knowing that the change would kick in well within the fiscal year.

    1. Mimmy*

      Plus, she knows I’m attending a major conference in a couple weeks and started throwing out ideas of things they may have me do.

      That really should say that she “started throwing out ideas of things they may have me do in light of the new knowledge and skills I will be learning”.

    2. Enough*

      Not being there long term does not mean you don’t accept what is available today. And you don’t indicate an active job search. The question is do you want the extra hours?

  226. ST*

    I’ve searched the site with several different combinations, but can’t find an answer.
    Here’s the scenario:

    Our hours are described as “work 7.5 hours, get paid for 8 hours” i.e.
    we have a paid 30 minute lunch. My new supervisor* schedules us for 8.5 hour
    days, assuming (I guess) that we’re taking an hour 1/2 unpaid for
    lunch. I never take an hour for lunch – in fact, 15 minutes generally
    suffices for the very light lunch that I might eat (1/2 a sandwich or
    a pack of Lance PB crackers). For the week we put 40 hours on the timesheet,
    but we’re actually being required to be there 42.5 hours.

    The additional 30 minutes daily is throwing me off my longstanding schedule with kids activities, etc.

    Do I have any room to push back on this?
    (Yes, we all are salaried)

    *who I am actually thankful to be now working for – my last two years were hell with a super who didn’t appreciate or understand what I was doing for the company, and cancelled my project.

    1. CM*

      Sure. You can say something like, “I noticed you’ve been scheduling me for 8.5 hour days, when in the past I’ve always worked 8 hour days. I usually only take 15 minutes for lunch, and working an extra half hour each day is throwing me off my long-standing schedule that allows me to pick up my kids on time. Would it be possible to go back to 8 hour days?”

  227. ST*

    Perhaps the best work-related email that I have ever received: “I forwarded this to Fergus. I am no longer your supervisor.”

  228. too late for this post?*

    Hey – I have an interview later this week, for a research group within a larger institute. All communication has been through the Human Resources Advisor for the institute, and the three people on the interview panel will be from the research group. After the interview, who do I send the thank you note to?

    1. Onyx*

      I’d cover my bases and send a thank you note to all of them. To the Human Resources Advisor, thanking them for setting up the interview and the three people on the panel for taking the time to discuss the position with you.

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