open thread – March 1-2, 2019

by Alison Green on March 1, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Frustrated*

    Despite generally liking my job over the past 3 years, a recent reorg on my team has made me exceedingly bitter and I’m not sure how to handle it.

    I recently learned that my previous manager was exceptionally ineffectual and his failure to give me any kind of constructive feedback whatsoever in the last few years has significantly impaired me in our department head’s eyes and she appears to believe I do not know the basic tenets of my job and am not ready for more responsibility. Unfortunately, this recent feedback is kind of the equivalent of need-job-experience-but-can’t-get-a-job-without-experience kind of catch 22s, and I’m unbelievably frustrated. No one has criticized my day to day work, and have actually praised my performance in regular duties, but apparently there were other expectations that were never communicated to me. Due to exceptionally outstanding circumstances, other members of my team have had prestigious opportunities I have not, which even led to someone who has been here 10 months getting promoted over me.

    I don’t want to blame anyone else, because it’s certainly on me to step up more than I have, but I can’t help but feel I’ve been getting the short end of the stick around here. I’m really upset that despite staying late, working weekends, taking on projects other people hate without being asked, etc, only my direct manager knew what I was undertaking and evidently failed to communicate any of it.

    It’s very hard to break preconceptions in this office, and I’ve seen many people leave over it. This is ostensibly a good job, and I know I could have it much, much worse than this cushy job with good benefits and an otherwise great corporate culture with kind managers and a comfortable environment, but I right now just want out.

    Any advice?

    1. Overeducated*

      Are you my coworker? Probably not since I wouldn’t describe us as having a “great corporate culture,” but seems like they could have written this.

      I think trying to get out for somewhere you can start fresh and get recognition is totally rational. But for the meanwhile, I think you might need to be a little more loudly needy and a little more self-promoting. Make sure your manager knows where you’re going above and beyond, and ask for frequent feedback, advice, and developmental opportunities in the areas where the expectations were not communicated. Be a squeaky wheel.

      1. Frustrated*

        This is what I’m trying to do. I’ve had a frank conversation with my (new) manager and she understands where I’m coming from. I just think that at this point, there’s not much I can do to change perceptions, based on how things have historically happened around here.

        1. Eleanor Rigby*

          Maybe you will need to look outside of this organisation in that case, if finding another job is possible (I know it might not be depending on your circs)

          1. Frustrated*

            Oh, I absolutely am. Aggressively. I’m looking for positions that are a step up but I would consider a lateral move if it gets to that point.

            1. Overeducated*

              I think it sounds like you are doing all you can then. Good luck getting through this tough period, I hope you get a good new opportunity in your current job or a new one.

        2. Busy*

          Heya! Are you writing about me? And honestly it takes time. I struggled for awhile going through all the emotions I am sure you are feeling. And then, I just kind of told him “off” but in a professional way. I explained that I have this amazing resume with all these accomplishments and here? Nothing. 2 solid years of nothing. I explained how my previous manager would keep my ideas quiet and not communicate to others what I was doing. She also kept me from working with others enough and kept me isolated as well for when she “needed me”. I told him how demoralizing that is. I mean basically, I was candid and honest. And the conversation was basically they are lucky to have my experience and I would appreciate if they would start utilizing it. There was a lot of other things, but I finished up with letting him know that I had to work X way according to my last boss (his old report) and to please be clear and precise with me on what his expectations are for now.

          But at the end of the day, you have to look at it like starting over in a new job with someone who doesn’t trust you at first. I think you will be ok as long as you are completely candid and give it time.

          1. Busy*

            OH! Also, don’t get stuck in the mindset that this is some how about you. You have a track record and you know your worth. You can and will find another job. I found going into it with the mindset of “If they are going to fire me, then they are going to fire me with my mouth running. I am not going quietly”. Because it is hard not to feel offended or like a piece of crap. You are worthy and this is there problem to show to you that they can manage past dysfunction. (cuz IT IS dysfunctional to have this happen).

            Just do it all with professional tones.

          2. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

            I totally sympathize. I am currently in a similar position. I was hired for what was advertised as a high level high visibility job and it gets paid accordingly. I have a great professional background, two degrees, years of experience and have basically been totally ignored since I’ve gotten here. I have articulated that and also offered to pick up additional responsibility, but I kept getting ignored. I am doing everything in my power to fasttrack out of this job. I feel that it was a setback to my career and frankly it has been emotionally draining too. But really the only thing that one can do in this situation is to leave.

        3. Mickey Q*

          I once read an article that said once a boss has a certain perception of you it’s pretty hard to get them to change it and you might as well start looking.

        4. Aaron Aardvark*

          I had an okay manager, and now I have a great manager. One of the changes I had to make under the great manager is to make sure I’m communicating effectively. Whereas under okay manager I was a quiet little mole in my cubicle, got work, got work done – under great manager I get work and I communicate as to expected timeline, communicate any roadblocks, and communicate when work is completed. This might now work for everyone, or every situation. But it made a big difference to my coworkers, as they were managing/juggling several projects and having me check in allowed them to adjust their expectations/timelines/vendor communications. Under great manager, I’m seen as part of the team, rather than part of the grinding system whose work is unseen and capricously completely.

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      Is there someone above you that you can talk to? Whoever is now your manager, or a colleague of the ineffective manager, or perhaps the ineffective manager’s boss? I’d be honest in much the same way you were here. “Can you give me some actionable things I could do to show you & TPTB here that I am a reliable employee? As you now know, other expectations were never communicated to me by Fergus. Now that I am aware of them, I’m doing A, B, and C to be sure that those other expectations are being met.” And then from here add or adjust to be specific to your situation. But my “channeling Allison” instinct is that asking calming “what do you need to see from me” is a good route.

    3. Not Maeby But Surely*

      It’s hard to tell given the information you provide, but is there any hope of explaining what happened to the department head? It sounds like an incredibly frustrating situation.

    4. Dr. Octagon*

      Hmmm, you’re in a bit of a sticky spot for sure. When is your next performance review? It looks like you’re going to need to take some ownership on your career pathing because your old manager certainly didn’t do you any favors. Right now you’re probably labeled as the ‘head down, grinder employee who is just happy to be here and we don’t need to worry about him/her for promotional opportunities.’

      The great news is this is totally fixable, it just requires really clear communication on your part with what you’re looking for in terms of your career path. You’ll need to kind of go back to square one with your new manager since old manager was pretty ineffective. Once you have some career goals lined up, I’d ask for a meeting with your manager (especially if your next performance review is at say, the end of this year) and on top of your career goals, go in with a handful of your big accomplishments that you spearheaded under old manager, if your job is metric based, make sure you have those metrics. I think being proactive here versus reactive is critical since you’re behind the 8 ball. Of course, tone and body language is of the upmost importance when you’re chatting with your manager since you don’t want to come off defensive (even though you have every right to be…man your old manager stunk.)

      Good luck!

      1. Frustrated*

        Next official (“official”… we don’t have actual tracked reviews here) review is in August.

        However, my direct manager has no say whatsoever in personnel decisions; that’s all the department head. I did have a sit-down with my current manager already and plan to schedule more one-on-ones with the department head moving forward to eliminate the degrees of separation, but I’m afraid the damage is done.

        I think the head down grinder employee is exactly how I’m seen. Unfortunately, the last head-down employee had a boss who advocated strongly for a promotion for him and was shut down soundly by the department head, which is in large part why I’m suddenly feeling desperate.

        1. Lazy Susan*

          Short term – the bright sparks of your office: how do they act in the office? Do they say hello to everyone, make eye contact, keep their heads up? Do they speak up in meetings, interact with officemates beyond work assignments? Answer their phones with a smile (I’m not saying fake being happy, answer your phone with a smile because it makes your voice sound pleasant to the caller)

          Copy them. Make yourself visible in the small ways, so that when you step up workwise, it is not a shock that a ‘grinder’ is now a star.

    5. Ms.Vader*

      Have you sat down with your new boss to go over specifics around what you did accomplish and get clarity on what exactly is missing? I would try that to get your next steps.

    6. Anon for Now*

      Have you talked to the department head and your new manager? Did the department head tell you directly that she didn’t think that you understood the basic tenets of your job? Or did you hear that through someone else?

      Either way I would be asking for a one-on-one with the department head and manager asking for more specifics. What is it about those basic tenets do they feel that you don’t understand? Is it possible that your previous manager provided you inaccurate instructions for one or more component?

      I also think it’s worthwhile asking specifically what benchmarks that you need to achieve in order to be considered for a promotion. I think that will tell you a lot. If they can’t provide actionable items for you to work on then it’s probably going to be better for you to look for something else. However, if they can, and they are open to working with you, then it may be just a sucky few months while you demonstrate your competence to them. You shouldn’t have to, but longer term it might help you.

      Sorry you are in this situation though! It stinks.

      1. Frustrated*

        The department head basically said that, but in not so many words. In our catch-up after this reorganization, she talked to me about how to better understand a very central part of my job, and it’s very distressing that she thinks I don’t already know these things.

        I have had a productive meeting with my manager, but she doesn’t have say over promotions/raises. That’s all our department head.

        1. Anon for Now*

          I would definitely be asking for a meeting with the department head. And I think you could bring up the fact that you are concerned that she doesn’t have confidence in your competence, and I think you could potentially ask her why she feels that way. Because there may be something that you’ve been doing that she doesn’t feel is the best practice or you may have been instructed incorrectly. Or she may not understand that you are competent. Asking those kind of questions, in an effort to gather more information from her, I suspect may help.

      2. King Friday XIII*

        I think this suggestion about asking for benchmarks is a good one. It can be hard to dig out of this kind of hole, and you shouldn’t feel too bad that your manager messed it up, but turnover can work in your favor as well – the director that thinks you’re not doing your job could just as easily move on.

        Definitely look around, if only to give yourself the confidence that you do have other options! But you’ve got a great opportunity to be very picky since you’ve got the basics covered where you are for the time being.

        1. Frustrated*

          Unfortunately, I don’t work in a very benchmarky field. I’ve been told what they want to see, but as I described above, I can’t make much headway on that front without getting opportunities that I’m currently not getting. As in, I can’t show my proficiency at X but I can’t demonstrate it because I am not involved in X (and it’s absolutely not the kind of thing I can push my way into without explicit invitation).

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      Do you have any documentation to pass along showing those tasks that you took on etc…? If so, I would set up a meeting with new manager along the lines of “I realize that we have a bit of a disconnect on my role and previous accomplishments. Can we set up a time so I can bring you up to speed on what I’ve been working on as well and see how that fits in with your vision for my role?”
      Then spell out your accomplishments and goals and ask what it takes to get there. Even if this doesn’t immediately change their mind about you, it might create a more positive impression and cause them to take a closer look at the work you are doing. Bring along any performance reviews you have copies of, proof of work on X projects, and anything you feel proud of.
      If you have any close coworkers who you have helped out of a bind maybe let them know what happened – if they are in good standing with new boss they might let drop in conversation that Frustrated is someone who is a great team player and can always be relied on and give examples if possible. I probably wouldn’t frame it as a “can you tell boss I don’t suck” just something that might come up naturally in a conversation.

    8. AnonyMouse*

      I’m in a sort of similar position right now. My supervisor is always going to view me as a student (because they knew me as a student) or at best “new professional,” especially since they have a newfound obsession with hiring more “experienced” people whenever there’s an opening. Despite working here for 1.5 years, I’m the lowest paid person in the office and two of the people making more than me have been here less than a year. My coworker was also recently promoted, even though we’re essentially doing the same job still. I feel like I’m being put in a position where I will never be taken seriously and the only remedy is to leave. I agree with your desire to want a fresh start in a different environment. That’s totally valid

    9. Argh!*

      Is your previous manager my current manager?

      HBR’s “Set-up-to-Fail Syndrome” perfectly captured my experience, so I’ll suggest it to you, too. If you have a new manager who isn’t subconsciously or consciously into sabotaging subordinates, it might pay to have a heart-to-heart about this issue.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      If you just want out then get out. Ramp up the job search and move on. It seems like the logical thing at this point as this is pretty rough stuff.

      Other suggestions:

      1) If you have a true work friend who is in a better spot that you, perhaps that person can give you some pearls of wisdom.

      2) Perhaps your new boss can allow you time to shadow or assist on one of the preferred projects so that you can gain some traction here. I know I have done this, I let a person do some things, then added more things and pretty soon they were doing the larger task with no questions from TPTB. Ask your new boss to help you think of ways you can break this vicious cycle and show off your abilities. I was one of those supervisors who would believe people and try to give them a shot at something when ever I could. The few times someone asked me directly for this type of assistance, I busted my butt to help them.

      3) If you are volunteering to do the jobs that no one likes, stop volunteering. For me this was super hard, I can’t stand seeing something being left undone. I had to learn to keep walking past it. I would do the PITA tasks if asked OR if I saw that others were starting to take their turns. But I had to teach myself to keep walking past my old habits.

      4) I have been in a position where I could not hire/fire but I supervised. As time went on I became more influential in terms of who was rehired (seasonal) and who was fired. So while your boss right now may have no say in hiring or firing that will change. It’s natural for the department head to be dependent on the supervisors a bit for inputs. There may be chances in the future where she could go in on this convo again and gain ground.

      5)Your old boss was ineffective you say. I am thinking that is probably a massive understatement and you probably won’t have to go too far to prove yet more ways she was ineffective. Try to think of specific ways to point out what went wrong and how you could get up to speed. Let’s suppose there is a spring training every year and you never got sent. Additionally you now know you should have been sent. Specifically ask to go to spring training. Go line item by line item, find a way to gather up the pieces of what you should have had right along. In my spring training example, you may find that they are totally shocked this basic thing was not in place. This may assist them in realizing how much they fell down on properly supporting you and they might agree to send you.

      6) Since you have your new boss’ ear, ask her if she will sit down with you and the department to really discuss this. You may have to go as far as saying “this company has a rep for hanging on to preconceptions”. Remember, chose your words and examples wisely. You are empowering your new boss to advocate for you effectively. So you need to role model the strong talking points that she will use to talk to her boss. I have often thought that we must provide our supervisors with the scripts for THEM to be persuasive with their boss.

      7) You sound like you are a nice person. I believe that being nice carries us farther than anything else. Since you have no history with new boss, it might be easiest to have nice conversations with her to build a plan of some sort. I know when I have no history with a new person, it’s much easier to keep my wits about me and not be up on the ceiling some where.

      Now that you have gotten through my long read (sorry) I have done some of these things to make a job work out for me. In the end, it was not worth it. My father used to say “When you need someone to explain to TPTB that you are doing a good job, then you need a NEW job.” The reason is that TPTB are not taking the time to find out what their staff is actually doing and how well they are doing it. You can’t fix that. You can try, but you will deal with variations on the problem for the rest of your time there.

      For me, I would ask myself, “Do I want to put massive energy into trying to fix this with no idea how it will land OR do I want to use my energy to get myself to a better place?” In this instance I would consider that I MIGHT be able to move out of the pit, but then I would be forced to watch other people– good people– get stuck in the same pit. And that would just be too much for me.

    11. Blue Eagle*

      This may not help you in the current job, but if your manager is not communicating to others your accomplishments, think about developing relationships with other people in your organization and let them know what you are doing and what you accomplished.

      For example – who do you go to lunch with, anyone from another department? – are there any opportunities for sports in your organization, talking with people in the softball, volleyball or golf league about what you are working on and your accomplishments will get you farther than just working late (where people might get the idea that you aren’t able to finish during regular hours).

      This suggestion isn’t meant that you do this in an overly overt way, but when you get to know people and see them around there are always opportunities to ask what is new in their departments and mention something significant that you have done. Word does get around. This isn’t a cure-all, but one possibility for getting your work better known when your manager isn’t at all helpful in this regard.

  2. Half-Caf Latte*

    I can’t stop thinking about the poor employee who should have today off for her birthday, but her manager is insane.

    1. NotReallyKarenWalker*

      I just poured out some of my coffee in honor of her lost day off. One of these years!

          1. AMT*

            The thing that bothered me the most was that the LW was capable of understanding that the policy needed to be flexible for people who had weekend birthdays — and yet couldn’t summon any of that flexibility for a leap-year birthday! I kind of wondered whether there was some personal dislike or grudge there.

            1. Beth Anne*

              Right! That is the thing that made no sense. I would be more understanding of the leap year employee if you only got the day off if your birthday was mon-friday but the fact that they gave people who’s birthdays landed on the weekend off but not leaday employee was jus sad :(

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                I suspect LW inherited the existing policy and doesn’t have a clue that it coul&should be changed!
                Bureaucracy at its worst.

                1. Snack Management*

                  Sounds about right. And the LW also doesn’t know how to interpret policy! If an existing policy actually spells out the flexibility of a weekend falling on a birthday, it doesn’t actually need to have anything that addresses leap year bdays. The framework of the policy upholds the concept of the next available work day as the birthday. It doesn’t even need to be rewritten!

            2. As Close As Breakfast*

              What makes this extra interesting is that the 29th of February is on a Saturday next year! So will the employee be given Friday or Monday off because their once-every-four-years birthday falls on a weekend???????????

    4. Antilles*

      Counterpoint: That employee should be *thanking* her boss for discovering the secret of eternal life. Humans have been looking for the Fountain of Youth for centuries (millennia, really), but apparently all we needed to do was write some bureaucratic policies!

    7. Evil_Sandwich*

      I’ve been looking forward to this thread all week specifically to comment on this draconian policy and sending well wishes to the affected employee. Happy happies to her and a nastygram to the LW.

    8. Interviewer*

      My kids asked me at dinner last night how to celebrate a Leap Year birthday. I told them you pick a day, either February 28 or March 1, and celebrate the anniversary every year – because you’re 365 days older, just like anyone else is.

      They instantly understood the concept. They are 13, 10 and 8 years old.

      It amazes me that manager couldn’t figure it out.

      1. BFF with a Leap Year Baby*

        One of my dearest friends is a Leap Year baby. She celebrates on 28 February, because she figures she was born in February. I would totally celebrate BOTH days, but that’s just me, I guess. :)

        1. Marthooh*

          Not just you! I’d go with both days, two parties, two cakes, two everything. Just to be on the safe side.

        2. Cathy Gale*

          You’re not alone. I was born at noon so I insist on celebrating my birthday from noon that day, all the way through noon the next day…minimum.

    9. Facepalm*

      Yes! I thought of her this morning because the Radio Classics channel was playing Dinah Shore episodes and the announcer mentioned she was born on Leap Day.

      1. Cathy Gale*

        It makes me happy to think there’s another AAM reader listening to Greg Bell occasionally.

    10. PhoebeBuffay*

      Embarassing for me that I completely missed this comment and essentially repeated it way below. Whoops! But I’m thinking of her too. Hopefully she’s enjoying another year at age 6, wherever she is!

      2. The Rat Catcher*

        Search “leap day,” the first result is the update with a link to the original. It’s all terrible.

    12. ElspethGC*

      My housemate’s dad is a leap year birthday, as I found out when she called him to wish him a happy birthday yesterday. I might send her that letter and ask what she thinks!

    13. Parenthetically*

      Oh man, yeah, raising my post-lunch tea to her, wherever she is — hopefully long gone from that recalcitrant nutbag’s employ.

    14. [insert witty username here]*

      My dad is a leap year baby so I told him about that when I called him yesterday on his “unbirthday.” What a ridiculous policy that was (is)!!!

    16. Quake Johnson*

      That letter still makes me SO MAD.
      I hope she finds a way to make the day special anyway.

    17. dramalama*

      I went back and reread the update for the morbid thrill of it all. The “people seemed to be unclear on the policy even though I stated it” paragraph still sends shivers down my spine.

    18. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      I hope that manager still lurks and sees this, because the stance is insane. Happy Birthday to the employee, I hope she’s in a better job.

  3. JackBlue*

    I work in teapot design and administration. I will be starting a certification program in teapot digital marketing to enhance my skills and to make myself qualified for higher-level positions. Should I let my boss and colleagues know I am taking this certification course? After I finish I would like to see if I can get some exposure to tasks that are related to my course work on the job.

    My dilemma is that teapot marketing is usually an area done by our clients — we serve as contractors in support of our client’s operations. I don’t want to step on our client’s toes. And also, if there is no room for me to do teapot digital marketing in my current position I will most likely go job hunting. Will letting my boss and colleagues know signal to them that I am a flight risk? Would it be better for me to keep this info to myself?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think if you’re in doubt about what their reaction is going to be, you should keep it to yourself.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      It doesn’t seem like there’s any good reason to tell them, so I would keep it to yourself.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I don’t think it’ll signal that you’re a flight risk. Unless your boss is completely unreasonable, they already know that anyone can leave at any time and that employees are always looking for improved financial and lifestyle opportunities — the way they overcome that is by offering competitive salary/benefits and a good work environment. You know them best so take into account what your experience is, but I don’t see an automatic need to keep it a secret. As far as “client’s toes” — well, you don’t really own them, or anyone, to keep yourself small and unobtrusive. If you can offer a skill to your employer, or another employer, you have that right. It might even parlay you into a better job with one of your previous clients.

    4. Mrs_helm*

      If this is what your clients do, can you possibly frame it as “doing this will help me better understand client’s needs”? Sure, that’s not WHY you’re doing it, but it still shows growth and value, and enables you to do this without being secretive about it.

    5. Lisa*

      Background – I’ve been in the industry now known as digital marketing for twenty years.

      Depending on who you are communicating this to, and their own level of expertise in digital marketing, you may need to be careful about your phrasing. if you do say something. In particular about it being a “certification.” In this industry, the only certifications that carry much weight are the ones that are issued by vendors for their own marketing technology platforms. You can get certified in certain CRMs, marketing automation tools, analytics tools, advertising systems, etc. but those are specific to the technology platform. There is no one in the field of digital marketing with the authority to say that JackBlue is now a Certified Digital Marketer. Digital marketing (along with a number of other internet-based professions) is so vast and rapidly changing and squishy in its definition that even the experts aren’t really experts, and the more expert they are, they more they know that it isn’t something you can become proficient in by taking a class.

      Now, if you were able to position it as, “Hey, I’m interested in expanding my skillset into digital marketing, and I’m taking a class to help me get started, but I’d like to find a way to put those skills to work – are there projects I could pitch in on?” you might get somewhere. Maybe you could sit in on client meetings where it gets discussed, maybe there are some basic tasks no one enjoys but that would be new to you – pulling reports, social listening, content QA – that your company or your company’s clients would welcome some help with. That gets you in the door and then, if you do have aptitude for it, that’s likely to show and you may get tasked with more.

      That type of hands-on involvement, more than official training, is generally how I’ve seen people move into this field.

      But don’t assume that your boss or colleagues, or prospective future employers, are going to see your training and certification as evidence of any qualifications. And be prepared to unlearn half of what you’ve learned. It’s that kind of a field.

    6. Sam Sepiol*

      If there is any way people could find out without you telling them, I’d tell them, because if they find out without you having mentioned it they will ABSOLUTELY jump to conclusions about why.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Some bosses/offices will see this as a sign that you are going to leave. But, it is a fact of life that people do eventually leave jobs. Is leaving seen as bad (or a betrayal) at your current job?

      Some bosses/offices see employees gaining skills as a good thing, especially with your own time and money. This is great, JackBlue will be able to assist us with this new skill/training!

      Which office/boss do you work for?

      Good luck and good for you for learning new skills!

  4. A Tale of Two Teams*

    I’ve worked for three years as administrative support for Team A. My supervisor was a director of Team A but left the company. Despite there being other Team A directors, I was assigned to a director from Team B. No job/title/duty change, just the director of a different team. She’s been fairly hands off; I get more than enough direction and tasks from the Team A directors. At review time, she gave me a good review and said that if I needed anything, I could come to her.

    Today, she dropped by my desk out of the blue, asking if I want to be completely part of Team B in a different position l. Now if I want to move up in the company, I would need to go to Team B; there’s no where else I can go in Team A. Team B does have positions I could grow into. However, Team B is notoriously overworked. They have high turn-over and have a lot of burned out employees who are eager to leave. I half think the reason she’s asking this right now is because Team B is understaffed and I could fill a position with less training than an outside hire; they’ve done this before with people from other teams.

    I don’t want to go to Team B. In fact, my director who left said he would be open to me moving to Team B because that would allow me to move up in the company; I thanked him and said I’d keep that in mind but I was very happy with where I was right now. I don’t want to move up in this company due to how overworked other teams/positions are. I don’t plan to stay here forever, I was actually starting to put thought into what’s next if I don’t want to move up. This direct ask took me by surprise. How can I nicely tell the Team B director that I don’t want to move to her team? I’m worried that if I say I’m happy where I am, in a position that has no upward motion, she’ll wonder if I’m thinking of looking elsewhere, which I am but have barely started that thought process; I wouldn’t actually be in a hurry to leave any time soon.

    1. Youth*

      My department manager has made some noise about moving me into the position above mine. It involves travel, which I would love, but it also involves being client-facing, which I would not. Also, I’m trying to get out of my company and didn’t want to take on a new role only to leave it.

      I turned her down basically by saying, “No thank you, I’m happy where I’m at and with the work I’m doing.” Could you do something similar–just say that you’re not interested in a change right now? Basically tell the Team B director the same thing you told your old Team A director.

    2. Blue*

      When I found myself in the position of not wanting an obvious promotion opportunity, I told my boss, “Thank you for thinking of me; I’m very happy to hear that you’re so impressed with my work. But from what I’ve observed, the opportunities that exist in Team B don’t really fit what I want to be doing, professionally. I would far prefer to continue focusing my attention on X, Y, and Z projects, which you know I really enjoy and I think really utilize my strengths.” In my case, that was enough to get him to let it go.

      But…it also inspired him to start asking more questions about my professional ambitions. I was honest with him, and my replies definitely implied that I’d leave at some point in the not-immediate-but-not-distant future. That was ok because he was a reasonable person and supportive boss, but it’d be a very bad idea if your boss might hold that against you. If that were the case, I think you stick with vague, non-committal, and possibly false statements about your future plans.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      How good will the bump up on Team B look on a resume? Since you’re already putting thought into moving on, think strategically. Can you work on Team B for any amount of time in order to have a nice promotion or bullet point on your resume? I often think that burn out is partially the employees fault too — set boundaries, work your best but go home when you’re mentally done for the day, manage your own availability so you can leave work behind when you leave the office… But if you don’t want to, then just say you don’t. However, it may also be that she’s “asking”…but not really asking…if the business needs people on Team B and they don’t really need your position on Team A anymore, you may not have a choice.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh I think this is a good point – in that if you join Team B with the plan to leave (not necessarily quickly, but if you have an end in sight – whether its 1 year or 2 years or whatever), it might be easier to manage the stress of the extra work. You also might not have the same internal pressure to put in all of those extra hours (and it might be easier to enforce boundaries) if you know you’re not looking to stay long term or get ahead in that dept.

      2. A Tale of Two Teams*

        Trust me, I work closely with Team B; they are overworked because because of bad company policy where of taking on way more work than resources can handle. And there are no work boundaries to be enforced; the company expects people to be available 24/7.

        Why do you assume employees getting overworked is their own fault, not bad management? In my last job, a truly terrible job, I was overworked because my two peers left and my manager decided I could cover all their work. I threw up a red flag when I needed help but my manager ignored me and expected me to get everything done, no questions asked.

        Also I do think the director was asking because the directors of Team A, the one who hired me and give me my day to say tasks, have plenty for me to do. While they’d let me transfer if I asked to have more growth, I don’t think they want to eliminate my position. Where I am now is a position that cycled through several people before I came; I’ve lasted the longest and expanded the role so they’d have to start over if/when I leave. I don’t think the needs of Team B trump the needs of Team A in this case.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          “Why do you assume employees getting overworked is their own fault, not bad management?” No one can take advantage of you without your permission… in life and at work. The answer is be firm, set your own boundaries and live them; you don’t need to cede control to your boss to set a work boundary. Get up and go home at the end of your day. Turn off or silence the phone. Don’t answer emails on vacation. If a task CAN’T be completed with the resources given, do your best, alert your boss, but let it go uncompleted.

          1. A Tale of Two Teams*

            You’ve not worked in a toxic work environment before then. Or a 24/7 industry. In the cast of the past toxic job, when I pushed back, saying I couldn’t do the work, my manager said do it anyway. When I let work slip because I couldn’t keep up, I was written up and reprimanded for not doing the work of three people.

            In current job, the industry is a 24/7 one. Everyone, even the directors are always on call. It’s expected in this industry and, if you don’t agree to that, you’re fired. The problem isn’t the long hours, the problem is the company demanding that we accept the request of every customer that comes through the door even if we don’t have the resources to actually give service to all of them. That’s why Team B is being overworked, to keep up with the demand of the hire-ups. No one has actually been fired because they need every hand on deck but if someone wasn’t doing what was asked of them, they would taken to task for not pulling their own weight.

            1. valentine*

              No one can take advantage of you without your permission
              This just isn’t true and it’s victim-blaming.

              A Tale of Two Teams: On Team B, you could end up with everyone’s leftovers instead of your own work/role/path. Tell her, “I’m very happy where I am and look to stay for the foreseeable future.” And maybe ask the guy who hired you if you can be slotted under a Team A director, who better knows your work.

              1. Pippa*

                I agree with Valentine. It’s an old Ann Lamders (I think?) line, but it’s just not true in any context involving power differences. (In this particular context, it sounds like Tale of Two Teams can protect her/himself by not taking the new position, so it’s just the old cliche I’m objecting to here)

          2. A Tale of Two Teams*

            Sorry, I didn’t mean for my response to sound harsh. I was having flashbacks from Old Toxic Job and was feeling stressed about what’s popping up at current job. Didn’t mean to take it out on you.

          3. Catleesi*

            Doing this could cause you to lose your job though, depending on how vital your boss thinks the tasks are. Simply leaving things undone is not always an option, and a lot of people cannot afford to be out of work.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      Are the growth positions in Team A the same as the positions in Team B? If not, I would say “I would like to be able to do X position on Team A, so I think it would be beneficial to stay connected to that team.”
      That way she would know you are looking to grow, and not satisfied where you are, but that your path is different than the positions she has.

    5. Dasein9*

      There is an image of a letter purported to be from E.B. White making the rounds of my FB friends right now. In response to an invitation, the note says, “I must decline, for secret reasons.”

      You are free to do that.

      I wouldn’t be quite so blatant as to say “for secret reasons,” but you can decline with very minimal reasons, alluding at most to a “complicated personal life at this time” or some such formula that essentially lets the manager know that your reasons aren’t on the negotiating table.

    7. M*

      If it’s not really a secret that Team B has an extremely high workload, and the director seems reasonable, there’s a pretty solid case for just *saying* that. i.e. “I really appreciate the offer! I’m quite happy in my current position, and a big part of that is because the workload is very manageable on a day-to-day basis. I know Team B has more upward mobility, but I’m not in a place in my life where I could commit to the overtime required to do that role justice. I’d be happy to talk about future roles when they open up, but it’s not something I could do right now.” That shouldn’t raise too many red flags about why you’re staying in a position with no upward mobility – because the kind of people who stay in a role that’s massively overworked are the kind of people who tend to see that as the cost of *being* upward-mobile – and she’s pretty likely to just assume that you’re not that ambitious. Given you don’t plan to progress within your current company, that’s not exactly going to hurt you.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Are you able to be honest and give a reasonable explanation for staying with team A? “I notice that team B works long hours. Because of family commitments. I am only able to work 40 hours a week.” Note that family commitments can include your commitment to yourself to have a balanced life with sane working hours.

  5. Not So Super-visor*

    Short Version: Help! My boss hijacks interviews and takes them on nonsequitar conversation paths.
    Long version: after at least 2 decades of relying on temp-to-hire, I’ve been steadily making a case to stop using temps and rely on direct hire over the 4 years in my position. After a recent round of disasterous temps, I finally swung my boss’ boss to my side. We’ve begun interviewing, and I put in a lot of research and work into coming up with meaningful questions and a good flow for interviews that I think will encourage meaningful conversation. I’m manager level and would ultimately make any hiring decisions, but my boss insists on coming to all interviews. This wouldn’t be a problem, but he frequently goes off topic. In one interview, he went on a long tear about the changing racial demographic of the area. I was mortified. Other sermons have included that rising cost of health care and millenial work ethic. I try my best to steer the train back onto the tracks, but I end up feeling frustrated and like we didn’t put our best foot forward. What do I do here?

    1. starsaphire*

      Oh my God.

      Well, you can’t put duct tape over his mouth, sadly. Can you schedule interviews at times when he’s booked with other meetings?

      I really hope he’s not influencing your company in any meaningful way, because, wow.

    2. OperaArt*

      Those aren’t just non sequiturs. Those are probably red flags in many interviewees’ opinions. I wouldn’t want to accept a job in a place that has the apparent culture your boss might be creating.
      Is there any way you can deflect your boss from being in the room at all? Couch it in terms of how much of his valuable time these interviews take?

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Amen.

        Many Jobs Ago had a personnel manager who actually said out loud that they should try to hire married women from now on so they could be on their husbands’ insurance. That probably wasn’t legal but it didn’t occur to me at the time. But it didn’t make me feel good about working there and was one of many things that lit a fire under me to find another job.

        1. Equestrian Attorney*

          Also I’m a married woman and my husband is on my insurance – did that not occur to your boss?

      3. Friday afternoon fever*

        ….as an interviewee, if I would be at all supervised by your boss, I would actually consider it a blessing to have your boss in these interviews because it would give me enough information to self-select out of the process right away.

        Is this interview process an accurate depiction of what working with your boss is like? If so I think it’s fair to the interviwees to let your boss be themselves, even if it feels dismaying to you.

    3. Rachel*

      Wow. Does your HR provide any guidance on how to hire? At one of my previous companies, even low-level employees who might do a “group interview” for a new co-worker or boss were REQUIRED to read and sign off on HR documents regarding appropriate interview questions, confidential information etc.

      If there isn’t some literature available, maybe you can suggest it become the norm to “help with appropriate interviews” without calling your boss out directly. Or even just send him some info “that I found useful”.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d try something like this. Make is seem like a legal requirement to have a script going in and asking everyone the same questions. It is stupid but might be a way to manage this person. And I agree, these are flapping red flags — racist boss who hates millennials is not a good look while hiring.

    4. Dragoning*

      Is he like this in a normal work environment? Because unfortunately, I think you have to let candidates select out if they don’t want a boss’s boss who is going to randomly break into a tangent about millennial work ethic.

      As a millennial, I sure wouldn’t.

      1. Frozen Ginger*

        I mean, for all we know his rant is about how great our work ethic is and how terrible it is that other people don’t recognize the difficult circumstances of when we came into adulthood…
        (But it probably isn’t)

    5. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Really, I feel your pain. You are trying to find the best people by presenting your company’s best self. I’m sorry to say that it kind of doesn’t have one. It has good parts; it has probably less good parts. It may not have any bad parts, but it does have a big old crazy part. And that is driving the bus right now.
      Looking at the big picture, do you see now why your department went temp to perm? Might be due to boss being incapable of interviewing. If there’s no way to end this, maybe find a way to morph temp to perm with some interviewing.
      You could phone screen a candidate but explain you need at least half an hour to ask and answer questions because it’s a temp to perm position and you really are looking to hire a candidate.
      Is this an end run?

    6. irene adler*

      Can you do the first round or rounds of interviews alone? Or at least without boss participating in them?
      Tell him it’s to save his valuable time. He’ll be brought in for the final candidates and not before.

      Let him review your list of questions. And ask if he’s got any questions or topics you might include.

      Let him be involved with the resume reviewing before any interviews are scheduled, so that he feels “involved” in the process.

      The monopolizing of the interview with ‘sermons’ is going to look like a red flag for the job candidate. Maybe share that thought with boss?

      Or, suggest to boss that the more WE talk, the less WE learn about the candidate. And the less likely you’ll be surprised by something post-hire you didn’t find out pre-hire. Can he find it in him to let the candidate do more of the talking? Or suggest to him that he be more of an observer/listener to pick up on things you might miss as you conduct the interview.

      Or might discuss with boss an interview ‘strategy’ – along with the list of your interview questions. Explain the reasoning behind each of your interview questions (“This one should tell us how in-depth their knowledge is with software X, this question is to find out how they multi-task, this question will tell us what they are looking for in a work environment”, etc.-you get the idea). Explain that you want to accomplish certain things by the end of the interview. You want to have a good assessment of the candidate’s software knowledge, temperament, availability, how they handle clients, interest in the position, skill levels, etc.
      Then ask him to explain the reasoning behind his interview actions. Ask him what he expects to learn about the candidate with his interview style. Then see how he responds. Maybe there’s method to his madness (though I doubt it).

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Love these suggestions.

        I spend a lot of time managing up, and this is the sort of thing that tends to work. Especially because then in the cringe-worthy moment, I can interject with words we already used between the two of us and dislodge him from his yammering.

      2. OhNo*

        I like the idea of suggesting a listener role to the boss – it might encourage him to keep his mouth shut for a minute. Of course, the fallout might be that then you are the exclusive audience to the lecture after the candidate leaves, but if it works…

        If you think it might help, you can suggest sort of a good cop/bad cop arrangement. As in, “I’ll be the ‘good cop’ who asks questions, is friendly with the candidate, and teases out detailed responses. You be the ‘bad cop’ that looks important and intimidating (and silent) in the background, so they know you’re the one they need to impress.”

    7. Shark Whisperer*

      How good are you at telling when he’s about to go on a rant? If you can catch him towards the beginning, maybe you can interrupt him and say “Bob! Can you hold that thought? We only have limited time with [Interviewee] and I want to make sure we can through all of my questions and all of her questions. We can circle back to this at the end.” and then hope he forgets about whatever he wanted to rant about by the end of the interview.

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      Since you have buy in from boss’s boss for this hiring, can you reach out to them about this? Just lay out the problems your having in the hiring process with your boss in the room? Because this will serious jeopardize your ability to hire these roles. I would be opting out if I were an interviewee.

    9. Orange You Glad*

      Can you schedule your interviews in a way so you each meet with the candidate separately? I’m assuming your boss is inviting himself along so he can meet the candidates and be informed by your final decision. You could try to meet with the candidate first, hold what would be you typical interview, and then let your boss come in and meet the candidate at the end with a time limit. Frame it as saving him time as you won’t introduce him to any non-serious candidates. This doesn’t stop him from going off topic during his time, but at least you can get a genuine interview out of the candidate before it goes off rails?

    10. Adminx2*

      Must you interview together? Schedule him a 10 minute sit down, then you get the 20 minute in depth time. You both interview the candidate and you don’t have to fuss about interrupting your bad interviewing boss.
      Plus if you haven’t created a solid scoring system yet, do that!

      1. valentine*

        No. At least Not So Super-visor is a witness to the horror.

        If you hired me, you’d be the bad guy, once I found out you stopped him interviewing and you don’t mitigate his -isms.

    11. Parenthetically*

      Ohhhhhhhh my gods. If I had ANY other options, I would not work for a dude who went on racist, classist, ageist rants in an interview. My thought process would be, “If this dude talks like this in an INTERVIEW when he’s supposed to be trying to make a good impression, what’s he going to be like after working for him for six months?!”

      Step one: pitch it to him as, “Hey, I don’t want to waste your valuable time on first-round interviews. It’s too much work for you to put in and I want to rise to this challenge from Grandboss and see if I can refine this system and bring in a good employee.”

      Step two: go to Grandboss and explain that you’ve spent a lot of time on preparation for these interviews and want to really knock it out of the park on your own, and you feel like Boss is influencing the interviews too much and not giving you the chance to do what Grandboss asked you to do. This is your project, and you deserve to be able to do it independently. Whether you add in any of the rants Boss is going on would depend on your relationship with Grandboss, but I think you can at least start by just talking about Boss’s influence in the process when it’s really your baby and not his.

    12. senior jobseeker*

      I had the same problem. I had well prepared a common framework for all interviews, but my boss came in, and started with a long talk about the institute and own achievements there. That was followed by some general and specific but uninformative questions. They were not straightforward illegal but quite useless and sometimes across boundaries. At the end I had no time for the relevant questions to test how the applicant would cope with the intended tasks.

      I could not resolve the problem – the boss was too authoritarian to take advice from me. We had no HR and discussing with grandboss would have been outrageous. Little by little our relations worsened and finally I was fired (and since then looking for a permanent job).

      Good luck, it will not be easy.

    13. Marthooh*

      Maybe you should just let the boss rant his little heart out. Maybe you owe that much warning to your potential coworkers-to-be.

  6. Anonymous Educator*

    I had a very strange experience applying for a university job recently.

    At first, I was very impressed with the online application. After I uploaded my résumé, the system automatically scanned the résumé and successfully translated out all the pieces (where I’d worked, what company, start and end dates, bullet points). There was no spot for a cover letter, but there was a tiny section (a text box about three lines long) asking why you’re interested in the position. And then there were just a bunch of multiple-choice questions, including dollar ranges for how much you would want to make in the position.

    But then I got an automated response a couple of days later saying that I was excluded from the applicant pool because my salary requirements had disqualified me. What? I mean, I guess it’s like The Price Is Right, and you just have to guess what their range for the position is (it’s not listed in the job description)?

    I’m used to that sort of thing possibly excluding you in a non-automated way (an interviewer asks you what range you’re looking for), but at least with a human being asking you, there’s a possibility for wiggle room.

    I don’t think this can be said enough: folks listing jobs, if you’re going to exclude candidates based on their salary requirements being too high, save everyone time and energy by just listing the range you’re willing to pay for the position. Yes, almost every candidate will think she deserves the top of your range, but you should be able to reasonably explain why certain candidates would get the bottom of the range, the middle of the range, or the top of the range. You have a budget. Stop playing games.

    1. Alex*

      I agree completely, but one thing to try for next time is to see if you can find the university’s hiring range for particular job grades, and see if you can find the job grade in the job listing. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn’t, but I’ve applied to a lot of university jobs and often you can figure it out by doing that even if they don’t list a salary in the listing itself.

      (They still should stop playing games, but we all know they aren’t going to.)

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I checked Glassdoor beforehand, but there wasn’t anything for that exact type of job. I did my best guess, but apparently my best guess wasn’t good enough for them!

        1. Prof*

          If it’s a public school, all salary data is available online. You can also use public school salary data to estimate the salary for a comparable job in a private school in the same region.

          2. Anonymous Educator*

            It’s a private school. I thought, based on public school salary data for nearby colleges, that I was guessing the correct range for this position, but apparently my guess was wrong!

            1. Triplestep*

              I applied for a job at a private schoo; the job grade was listed, and the corresponding salaries findable via Google search. When I had the phone interview, I was able to say I’d be happy with the range because I had looked it up. Salaries in academia are some of the most easy to find in my experience.

            2. ..Kat..*

              Private schools can be different. Especially if they have a “mission.” You are expected to be so dedicated to the mission that you will work for peanuts. If you proposed a reasonable salary range and they rejected you based on that, consider yourself lucky. But, you are correct. It would be nice (and more efficient) if they posted the salary range. That way a person could self select themselves out without the work of applying.

        2. Alex*

          I meant on the university’s own HR site, not an external site. Lots of universities have standard job grades and have information available on their websites about them (mostly for their own employees). If you connect the dots of how to find the job grade and then find the description of the job grade, you can often find out what their internal processes are. At least, this is how it works at the university where I currently work and some other places I’ve applied.

      3. n*

        This is a great suggestion. I’ve had surprising luck Googling this in the past. Jost post lists something like: “Paygrade: A07.” Google: “UniversityName paygrade A07.” Found lots of message boards with folks discussing the salary ranges.

        Won’t always work but worth a shot.

    2. Help Me, Help You*

      My company also doesn’t include pay range in our job listings and it’s really annoying from the hiring manager perspective too. Yes, I know what the pay range is for the jobs that I’m hiring and if you’re like, waaayyy above it, yeah I’ll remove you from the pool. But if you pick a range right above the range of the job… who knows?! Maybe that’s the range you want and you won’t take the job for less. Maybe you’re fine taking less (obviously everyone wants more) and you just kind of guessed a number. I already have to sort through so many stupid resumes and it’s really annoying to find a good one only for their pay range to be three above what I know they’ll get. It wastes my time and the applicant’s time. Our system also doesn’t allow for a cover letter, so I’m basically hiring in the dark. HR has heard this complaint many times, from myself and my coworkers and they just kind of shrug it off.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, thanks for that perspective. It’s definitely not always the hiring manager’s fault. Lots of times there are rules about how the jobs get listed that are out of the control of the hiring manager.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I agree. There’s nothing more frustrating than having to guess. Also, I hate going through interviews only to find out I could make more at McDonald’s.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Presumably it would be frustrating for them, too, but (as Help Me, Help You pointed out above) sometimes listing the salary is even out of the hiring manager’s hands.

        I just found it jarring for it to be such an automated screening process. I mean, they were listing things much higher than what I selected ($120K-140K, and even $140K and more) in the drop-down menu. Why? I mean, clearly they have a range, even if it’s broad range. Why give people a drop-down menu selection, and then automatically penalize for selecting the wrong option?

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yep… I think we all have a great sounding job that we realized didn’t pay basic bills. Because it’s exciting and we’ll pay our dues and… yep.

    4. IvyGirl*

      My University has the salary ranges for each job level and posts that typical starting salaries are in the bottom third of that range. Like this is literally stated there.

      So say the job is posted as a grade A7 – that range would be $35,000.00 – $55,000.00, so the hiring salary for that wouldn’t top $45K. If someone puts a salary requirement of $60,000.00, they would be excluded.

      It’s safer to state “negotiable” for consideration, if that is an option in the application.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        There was no such option in the drop-down menu. And this particular university did not list a range on the job description or “grade.”

    5. SavannahMiranda*

      How galling. I used to work for state government. If you find a similar posting in the future and want to apply, seek out your state’s public salary listings, and use it to gauge your expectations and requests.

      Almost all states have public listings of salary levels for all of the various roles. The lists can be hard to find, so you have to Google-Fu. And they can be a bit byzantine with the titles, descriptions, and levels. It’s public but takes some insight and imagination to decipher. But if you can come to a good estimation where the job you’re applying for lands on the schedule, it can give you a much better sense of what’s reasonable or possible.

      Almost all state positions pay less than the private sector, so that’s also a thing. Usually not disastrously less, at least not when you are first hired on. But other perks are meant to compensate (state holidays, quality insurance, retirement plans, longevity, and the like). So it’s entirely possible that your perfectly reasonable salary expectations were $10-12k higher than the position is mandated for in the schedules. All the more reason to seek the public salary lists.

      That was an awful experience. Good luck for next time!

    6. senior jobseeker*

      Very strange that they even ask for that, given that most universities tend to have their fixed scales that are hardly negotiable. I never gave and never was asked any salary requirement when applying for universities, but never was offered a university job in the USA (though some claimed I was close to top, but who knows what is close).

      The normal way to give salary range should be to write in the announcement 30 000 – 50 000 £$€ per annum, so that applicants know that you will get the lower end unless you can convince them that you are worth more and will not accept the offer with less than you give. (In some locations, particularly in the UK, you have to give your current salary to demonstrate that you want more.)

      There is nonzero probability that the application was not rejected by computer but human interference, i.e. someone knew you and rejected for personal reasons, taking the salary requirement as excuse and masking it as automatic rejection. Stranger things happen in academia.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        The normal way to give salary range should be to write in the announcement 30 000 – 50 000 £$€ per annum, so that applicants know that you will get the lower end unless you can convince them that you are worth more and will not accept the offer with less than you give.

        This is how I’ve seen it on most university websites. This one in particular has no announcement of salary range or grade, though.

        There is nonzero probability that the application was not rejected by computer but human interference, i.e. someone knew you and rejected for personal reasons, taking the salary requirement as excuse and masking it as automatic rejection. Stranger things happen in academia.

        You mean knows me personally? I doubt it. I don’t know anyone at that university. It’s possible someone saw my résumé, decided to reject me, and then had to pick from her own drop-down menu on the reason for rejection and just selected that, because there were no better choices to select from, yes.

      2. Mellow*

        “There is nonzero probability that the application was not rejected by computer but human interference, i.e. someone knew you and rejected for personal reasons, taking the salary requirement as excuse and masking it as automatic rejection.”

        Nonzero probability?

        Nonsense.

        It’s a poorly-designed portal that disqualifies on something so ridiculous as one’s inability to predict a salary requirement, and it’s mortifying.

        I don’t at all blame the OP for being beyond frustrated. I don’t know if this applies to the OP, but I was unemployed in my field for a whole year three years ago. I questioned my educational and vocational choices that whole time. To have been disqualified at the application stage because I happened to miss the mark on naming a salary would have been particularly maddening.

        Just list the fucking salary or salary range already and let applicants decide if it’s a good fit for their budget.

        Good grief.

    7. AshK434*

      If it’s a university position, they probably do make that information available in a roundabout way. Was there a salary grade listed in the job description? If so you could google “University salary grade” and that usually leads to useful results

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I mentioned upthread that there is no grade attached to the position. There is no payscale listed on this university’s website. I know that’s not typical, but it actually is the case here. I’m assuming people mean well with their responses, but I’m honestly starting to feel a little gaslit here. Trust me. There is no pay grade listed. It’s a pay scale listed anywhere on the university’s website.

        I feel like I came in here and said “Can you believe they asked me to pick a salary range from this drop-down menu, and then just automatically disqualified me?” and then a bunch of folks came back with “Well, you know, you could guess the salary better if you…”

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          For real. I found many of the replies really frustrating on your behalf for that reason.

  7. Lettuce Mutton Tomato*

    At my current job I’m a jack of all trades. I’m struggling with figuring out how to simplify and organize everything I do on a resume. My duties include:

    -Clerical
    -Customer service
    -Management and training of admin staff
    -Accounts payable and receivable
    -Bookkeeping
    -Service contracts
    -Maintaining business association memberships
    -Exhibitor registration and facilities at trade shows
    -Keeping company current on state certifications and licensing
    -Developing organizational procedures, streamlining processes, etc.
    -Copyediting of company documents

    Even if I do just one bullet point per item it leaves me with a resume that’s too long. I got feedback on my resume from someone who reviews resumes for a living and she said hiring managers just want a brief overview; they’re not going to read a lot of text. She suggested including a list of soft skills instead of detailing everything I do, but I worry that falls into the realm of “telling, not showing.” Obviously if I’m applying for, say, an accounts payable position I would highlight those duties and would leave out what doesn’t apply to the job description. But for more general admin positions I’m not sure what to omit.

    In addition, nothing I do involves quantifiable accomplishments as Alison suggests putting on a resume. It’s more like, “Didn’t screw up and forget to do something that keeps the company ticking along.” It’s a small company so there are no awards, no metrics for success, nothing. Most everything I do is behind the scenes, keeping things running smoothly and not letting things slip through the cracks. I have no clue how to organize my resume because my work experience doesn’t seem to fit the mold. Any advice?

    1. BeanCat*

      What about narrowing it down to your strongest skills for admin positions? Also, I think you can make quantifiable achievements for those – maybe you quickly and accurately process teapot registrations, or something like that.

      Good luck!

    2. WellRed*

      Well for starters, ditch the less important ones (maintaining business association memberships, meh). Same with things that are less relevant to what you want to do. “Copyediting documents” isn’t really that impressive unless you are trying to get an editing job, but “developing organizational procedures” is. Also look at how you can group certain things together, for example, “handled all bookkeeping duties including AP and AR”

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Your résumé is a marketing document, not a comprehensive list of everything you’ve ever done at every single job.

      What I’d do is keep a “source” résumé that has absolutely everything, and then make a copy of that every time you apply for a new job, and then trim the copy down to whatever you think highlights your accomplishments best for the job you’re applying for. It’s also okay to mention in the cover letter other things that are relevant to the position that just won’t fit in as bullet points on your résumé.

    4. Roses Angel*

      Can you combine or drop some of your bullet points? Like drop bookkeeping but combine clerical, customer service, service contracts etc under a miscellaneous bullet point?

    5. Nonni*

      Something Alison has said in the past is that your resume should highlight the difference between how you do your job and how someone bad at their job would do it. Even if you don’t have quantifiable metrics (I know I don’t), that’s a good place to start.

    6. Anon For This*

      Metrics for success don’t have to be predefined. They can just be things you’re proud of having done. Even if it’s just “never forgot the thing” you can point out that you get your work done promptly and well within deadlines every time, that your attention to detail means that nothing gets behind, etc.

    7. Overeducated*

      Put your duties in buckets and make each one of them a bullet point. I’m not sure exactly what they would be, but maybe something like:

      -External relations: customer service, business memberships, exhibitions and trade shows
      -Office administration: clerical and copy editing, supervising admin staff, streamlining procedures
      -Financial management: bookkeeping, accounts payable and receivable, service contracts
      -State certifications and licensing could be in its own bucket, or maybe combined with other compliance areas? Depends on your field how important this is to highlight.

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        I want to add to this that you can include a line showing a specific goal or achievement.
        External relations: Successfully providing customer service by creating and maintaining a list of FAQs to be used by myself and other on calls and email inquiries.
        Something specific that you did differently and better and especially if you shared it.

    8. JR*

      I think you can narrow those into a few accomplishments or at least things close to accomplishments by grouping like items and focusing on the underlying skills that let you do these things well. Like, a few of these look to be about relationship management and representing the company externally. Several look to be about streamlining operations – careful attention to details, etc.

    9. Lettuce Mutton Tomato*

      Thank you for your replies, everyone! It’s exactly the sort of input I needed. I think I needed a fresh perspective on this. Now I have a lot of helpful tips now thanks to this great community.

      1. Anonym*

        A piece of advice I got recently that was very helpful: if there’s an aspect of your job you don’t want to do in the future, don’t include it on your resume.

        Best of luck!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Yes! I was updating LinkedIn and noticed someone recommended me for a function I intentionally left off… I twitched because I don’t want ANYONE to know how much experience I have moving llama poop.

    10. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I find that if you put the skills in context, rather than just listing them, it’s easier to address “themes” of the value that you provide.
      I have folks say their resume element out loud and then I ask, “so what?”. If they can’t explain what the organization got out of the fact that the teapot reports were filed, then it doesn’t go in. Or more context gets added so that suddenly I find out that the admin wrangled all of the documentation for the sales and marketing team and created summary reports for decision makers. Which is so much better than “Completed the monthly TPS report.”

    11. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You can tailor your resume to match the jobs you are applying for. If the job description is focused on customer service type job duties, highlight those and drop off or combine finance bullet points. I would also start adding more quantifiable detail — “Management and training of admin staff” — how many staff? trained on basic duties or specialized training?; “Maintaining business association memberships” is this just mailing in a membership check or do you attend association meetings as your employer liaison? If it’s just mailing the check, take it off.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Combine things.

      AP and AR are bookkeeping, are you doing full cycle?

      What are you trying to get a job doing? Eliminate basic clerical tasks or condense them depending on where you’re applying!

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I have a master resume and I subtract the things that would probably be of no interest to a specific employer.

      Another thing you can consider is when you say you do X, there might be times when a reader would assume you can do Y and Z also. You don’t have to spell it all out.

    14. twig*

      In addition to tailoring your resume according to the positions that you are applying for — if there are job duties that you have been performing, that you’d rather not do going forward — leave those off of your resume.

      Just because you can do something — even do it well, doesn’t mean that you HAVE to do it in your next job.

      (For example — I might leave student worker supervision off of my resume even though I supervise 4-5 student workers because I HATE it.)

  8. SarahTheEntwife*

    Does anyone know of a distraction blocker browser plugin that *doesn’t* completely lock down blacklisted sites? I ideally want something that will pop up a confirmation box if I go on social media or whatever and make me actually think about whether I want to go on Facebook yet again.

    1. epi*

      You could get close with LeechBlock. I used it at a previous job.

      If you visit a page you’ve decided to block, you’ll be redirected to a message explaining why your LeechBlock settings prevent it. You can further set a password or access code to get into LeechBlock’s settings– that is what will make you stop and think, in practice. LeechBlock lets you set a time limit for certain sites, so you can go to Facebook but will get cut off after 20 minutes in a certain period; or set a time period when sites are blocked; or a combination. I highly recommend it.

      Another option would be to use the privacy or adblocking software you may already have installed on your browser. Deliberately block a few widgets or services that will break your favorite sites. You’ll visit them, they’ll look messed up, you’ll have to temporarily whitelist them or pause Ghostery (or whatever).

    3. SavannahMiranda*

      Block Site – Website Blocker for Chrome.

      It’s a Chrome extension that you set up with the sites you want blocked. If you try to go to one (or unwittingly follow a link on another site to one of them), you must enter a password to access them. Very useful.

      Personally, I had to name the sites to block, AND throw away the password. Because otherwise it was too easy to pop in the password and go there anyway.

      I can always re-up the password with a forgotten password request, so it’s not a big deal. It creates just enough of a hurdle to actually help.

    4. n*

      StayFocusd might work. You can set a time limit for specific sites, like say you just want to spend 20 minutes on Facebook. You can also set up the option to “require challenge” if you want to change your options– for example, solve a puzzle before giving yourself an hour on FB.

      1. OhNo*

        Looks like StayFocusd isn’t available for Firefox, alas! I need an add-on like this, and it would have been perfect for me. But when I was searching for an equivalent I found Monastery, which looks like a pretty good alternative.

    6. #ActuallyADHD*

      I use Morphine for Chrome. It has a timer – you add a few minutes to the meter, when it runs out, it blanks the sites and you have to add more time if you want to keep reading. Your balance of minutes refills at an adjustable rate.

  9. Minerva McGonagall*

    I’m really excited because I’m going to my first conference this summer! My old job never let anyone at my level go to a conference so I’m really glad to be in a new job that supports professional development.

  10. Not a deer*

    I’ve worked at a small company (~25 people) for less than six months. I am one of 3 women in the office, and at 28 am both the youngest woman and the youngest person in the office. The next youngest employee is 35 and the majority of my coworkers are men aged 45-65.

    About a month ago, one of my older male coworkers said “Thanks dear” when I handed him something he had asked for. Since it was a one-off comment, I didn’t think anything of it. But somehow it’s caught on and now many of my coworkers (my boss included) have taken to calling me “dear”. It’s never said in a condescending or flirtatious manner. They’re using it as a comfortable term of endearment. But now I’m worried about this hurting my professional credibility. I want these coworkers to think of me as a competent and equal colleague and I think right now they’re putting me in the same mental category as their similar-aged daughters.

    Is there any good language to use when I ask them to stop calling me “dear”? Many of these men are conservative and old-fashioned, so I’m pretty sure if I just said “I actually don’t like pet names. Could you please call me [first name]?” that they’d take it as an affront to their kindliness and I’d be mislabeled as chilly or overly sensitive.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Idea – respond with “you’re welcome, elk!” He’ll say “what?” You’ll say “you called me deer, so I called you elk.” Say this with a straight face. He’ll say, “I meant dear, as in you’re dear to me.” You’ll say, “oh, I thought we were doing animal names but I guess we’re not. Just call me Suzanne and I’ll call you Fred.”

      1. Not a deer*

        Haha I kind of love this idea. Most of my coworkers have a good sense of humor so it might work. Or I might start getting called “tiger” or “bear” or something next week.

        2. M*

          I mean, if you start getting called “tiger” or “bear”, I’d take that as a win, and just keep escalating with increasingly ridiculous animal names for colleagues. The problem currently is that it’s being done in a way that singles you out and in a form that ties into a set of sexist norms and stereotypes – if you can convert it into a universal office joke that *doesn’t* carry those problems, great.

      5. ello mate*

        Ok I love this!! If you have an okay or good rapport with them I think its so funny! I might even just say “I thought we were doing animal names haha!” and leave it there. This is really good I think! Unless you work in a super buttoned up nothing is ever funny office like my lawyer sister…

    3. Asenath*

      I think if you keep your tone of voice neutral and matter-of-fact, a direct “Would you please call me Firstname?” should be fine. And you can’t expect them to know your preferences if you don’t say so!

      1. Benefit of Doubting*

        Unless they’re calling all the men “dear” as well, they probably are very comfortable in not “being aware” of what’s acceptable in this century.

    5. Ashley*

      Start with your boss and next time he says it just say nicely, “would you please not call me dear?” Feel free to ask him to spread the word and if he is reasonable you can point out that it comes across as sexist. After that just respond to it with, “I asked you not to call me that”, but be forgiving if someone is really making an effort and it slips so you don’t come across to stern. (The classic fine line for a woman who isn’t smiling kind of thing.)

    7. KR*

      “Oh,could you not call me that? I’ve been getting it a lot lately and something about it grates on me.” Maybe make it seem like a wierd personal quirk instead of a small step in Dismanteling the Patriarchy

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        You can also tell your boss that you’ve noticed that people are not calling you by your name and you are really trying to build relationships in the office.

    8. Maya Elena*

      Do you have any evidence of this actually harming your professional credibility or your standing with your co-workers? Are you receiving respect commensurate with your position and expertise, appropriate assignments? If that is the case, I would let it slide. Watch out for and shut down inappropriate behavior (e.g. excessive mothering, belittling, harassment), but I’d expect the “you’re the same age as my daughter” effect to dissipate to negligible amounts as you gain professional standing in the company, if it hasn’t already.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        Terms of endearment are defined as an example of sexual harassment by the US Department of Interior’s Office of Civil Rights. It cites “honey” “dear” and “sweetheart”, it says “The effect is the primary issue rather than intent,” it explains. “Even if the person ‘means nothing to you’ or you have ‘used the term for years’ you should be aware that such expressions are inappropriate.”
        These words make people feel disrespected and uncomfortable, and it happens most often to women by men. Do you hear men calling each other “honey”? No.
        Calling someone “dear” puts them in a category/a box that isn’t equal to that of their male colleagues, intended or not, it has negative ramifications.

        1. Zennish*

          For the record, it’s not always a gender thing. In the American south, I’ve found it quite common for women to call men “honey”… and yes, I find it grating and overly familiar.

      3. TechWorker*

        Errr if she doesn’t want to be called dear then she shouldn’t put up with it :)

    9. JudyInDisguise*

      Boss: “Thanks dear”
      Me: “I got you, BooBoo! (double guns; pew, pew!)”

      The good news is they stopped calling me dear. The bad news is everyone calls me BooBooPewPew.

      Yeah, that did not turn out the way I had hoped.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Ha! I was about to suggest something similar, but you’re right it can go so, so wrong.

        Boss: “Thanks dear.”
        Me: “You’re welcome snookums.” …”No problem honey-buns”…”My pleasure sugar daddy.” said absolutely deadpan and looking them straight in the eye.

        1. valentine*

          No, don’t reciprocate and double down. You don’t want the pervert(s) among them to come back with worse when you’re unprepared. If they think you’re cold for wanting to be called by your name and known for your work and not your perceived age and gender, that’s an opening to tell your boss it may come across as sexist. And there’s no benefit to people classifying you with their daughter.

      3. just a random teacher*

        So…did you double down and call them schoockum cakes next time? Because maybe the only way to go from here is aggressively ridiculous. With luck, by next month your boss can write in to AAM “Somehow, my employees have started calling each other FishySparkleCakes and similar bizarre pet names, and I’m not sure what to do to restore professionalism in the office.”

        Or not. But I’d probably do it, because my sense of sarcasm is on a much quicker timer than my sense of social appropriateness.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re in a small office, you’ll alienate yourself if you push back on this.

      You’re kind of doing yourself a disservice by thinking 28 vs 35 is an gap at all. All my 20 somethings are my equal and they know it. Endearments don’t lessen that at all.

      I’m a high ranking business woman. I have been since I was 22 and my boss was my dads age. Pick your battles. Don’t let people sell nonsense about all conservative men looking down on disrespecting you by calling you dear.

      More doors start slamming on you if set up a rigid structure around yourself in small companies.

      1. Human*

        Please dont listen to this person. You have the right to be called by your name. You have the right not to be called a pet-name that men wouldn’t call each other. Asking for someone to call you by your name isn’t a ‘battle’ nor is it setting up a ‘rigid structure’. The best thing you can do for your career is to advocate for yourself. No sane man will be affronted by that simple preference.

        1. Camellia*

          Thanks for saying this so well. And I think “that men wouldn’t call each other” is the standard to apply.

        2. SavannahMiranda*

          +10,000

          The situation reminds me of the story which is now an internet legend of the woman of color handling the white colleague who complained about her ‘unpronouncable’ name and insisted on calling her variations of it, by calling him Bradley, Ken, Brett, Jack, and every other sterotypical ‘white guy’ name except HIS ACTUAL name for a year, until he apologized. (Not that this is the approach OP should take, but OPs situation is not worthy of being blown off.)

          Calling someone a variation of their actual name, including pet names, no matter how inoffensive, no matter how jokingly, no matter how endearingly, no matter how innocuously, no matter how much it’s intended to be good natured, can fall anywhere on a range from social faux pas, to determined naivete, to passive aggressive challenge.

          Frequently leaving the recipient of the nickname to figure out which is it. Which has an unsettling effect, regardless whether it’s ‘intended’ that way. It’s not rigid or embattled to expect not to be unsettled by having to decipher the intentions and beliefs of one’s coworkers and supervisors.

          That doesn’t mean OP needs to have a consciousness raising meeting, light candles, and prepare a PowerPoint about institutional sexism and misogyny in the workplace (I seem to like that phrase today). But they don’t have to just put up with it either.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      If you can do it with a smile, “Dear??? whaats up there? Did you forget my name again?”
      Tone of voice is key here.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I like this. I have also used a breezy “you’re welcome, sweetie” and found it very effective.

    12. High school teacher*

      Another strategy might be to respond with confusion.

      Him: Here you go, dear.
      You: (pause, blink) Huh? (Or “I’m sorry?” or “Pardon?” or whatever you would automatically say if you hadn’t quite heard what someone said)

      Then he gets to repeat himself with or without the “dear.” If without, problem solved! Repeat as necessary.

      If the repeats the “dear,” you can continue to be confused (tilt head, look puzzled) and make him repeat it again, or say, “Oh, what a strange thing to call a co-worker.”

      (Adapted from how I respond to students referring to teachers by their first names or saying something mildly offensive. Picture many minutes’ worth of: “It’s for Wakeen.” “Who?” “Wakeen.” “Who?” “WAKEEN.” “….Who?” “MR. WARBLWORTH!!!!” “Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, Mr. WARBLEworth! Of course!”)

  11. BeanCat*

    I have an internal interview today that could let me move from my contracting position into a full time position at my company, and hooooo boy am I nervous. I’m going over everything again and I just hope I can shine enough to show them I love both this field and this company. Wish me luck!!

    5. Asenath*

      Good luck!

      And when I did the same, I got myself terribly worked up, even though I was told it’s just a formality. But it was just a formality, and I got my job, this time permanent.

    7. SquigglyPanda*

      Good luck! My advice is to not treat it as a formality but also try to keep it casual so they don’t think you’re nervous. Confusing? Yes.

      1. BeanCat*

        First of all, thanks everyone!!

        I think it went really well! I felt confident with my answers, and one of my coworkers who interviewed me thanked me for all of the effort I put in to it. At this point I feel good but I’m well aware I have less experience than other candidates so we’ll see!

  12. ANOTHER friday anon*

    OH, wonderful the thread is up so I can write before I need to dash to my meeting…

    I have a little bit of dilemma…

    I had a job interview today (yay! especially after I bombed one earlier this week) and it went really really well, and they asked about salary pretty early on, which was fine. I went in having the expectation that they had an internal salary structure (because that was what I found out during my research), but apparently that is not true for the sort of position I interviewed for. I more or less named what I’m making now, which would be fine.

    Or it would be fine until they talked about the position a little and it turned out there would be substantial international (like 20%, both trans-atlantic and trans-pacific) travel involved and connected to that a lot more responsibility. This was not listed in the job ad and is not usual for the position at other companies I’ve been at. It’s a reason why I picked this career.

    But the job is still interesting! I would consider it depending on what their compensation is and, frankly, if there’s this much travel involved my current salary (even plus bonus) is not enough. I’m confident they’ll bring me back for the next interview stage, so there’s still options to fix it. Do you have some scripts of how to frame this when they ask about salary again (they might, due to the participants involved)? If they don’t I guess I have to wait until the offer stage…

    1. Beehoppy*

      “After learning more about the job, and particularly about the amount of travel and with it responsibilities for ____ that would be involved, I’m hoping you can do $X instead.”

      1. Mbarr*

        I second this phrasing.

        In fact, if I get an offer for the job I interviewed for last week, I intend to do the same… The job is way more detailed/higher level than I realized till I talked with them.

        And yes, I think you should wait till the offer range. Don’t want to scare them off in case they suddenly think they can’t afford you.

        1. ANOTHER friday anon*

          Thank you! This sounds perfect!

          It will probably be situational depending on how the second interview goes, but latest at the offer stage I will bring it up.

          Thank you again!

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      My thought is ideally when they mentioned these things, you would have said, you know, now that I’ve heard more about the role, it’s more travel/more senior than I have seen in similar roles in the past. I’m definitely still interested, but the salary I mentioned was for a role with less travel/responsibility. Given the description, a salary of X seems more in line with the role.

      I think you could still say that to them, and lead in with, I’ve had some time to reflect on the role, and …

        1. ANOTHER friday anon*

          I will do it if they bring it up again at the interview (which I think likely due to certain circumstances), I don’t want to do it via email after I already sent the thank you note. I don’t want to seem pushy.

          And yes, I agree that it would have been best in the moment, but I sort of didn’t expect it and was thrown for a loop.

    3. Adminx2*

      Just want to add this sucks they bring up money BEFORE fully outlining the position. Very unfair position to put you in and worth keeping a flag on.

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you, yes I agree this was a little weird. I don’t have an explanation. This company has an excellent reputation though, so perhaps it’s a quirk of the interviewers.

        1. Marthooh*

          Or maybe the role is being defined during the process of hiring, since companies don’t always know what they want right away. Don’t feel bad about having to change your salary expectations. “Now that I’ve done the math…” is another way to bring it up again.

  13. Anon For This*

    OK. Morals/ethics time, go.

    My job has so vastly improved that I can’t even. My pay just got a huge bump, I’m salary now which means no math to figure out how many hours I can count on for each pay, my commute is five minutes, some of the worst management have retired. My review was quite positive. Etc.

    Here’s the but. We have one extremely toxic element, in the shape of a single unstable employee. We know he has a drinking problem. We know he has an anger problem. He’s prone to lashing out at anyone out of the blue. I once jokingly told a coworker to hush because 90% of the staff were out and it was quiet, and this dude passed by and burst into tears, screaming at us to stop talking about him. His boss has commented to me a number of times that we’re taking bets on whether coworker has bombs or guns hidden in his bag, or how long it’ll take before he snaps. Everyone jokes about it. Recently my own boss came to me and said we now have a code. If Coworker comes in with a gun or goes crazy or something, someone will go on the PA with a particular code, where everyone will be told to gather in one place but they should actually gather in another, so that ideally he’ll go there and we’ll all be somewhere else.

    I thought this was another joke. It wasn’t. There was reference made to it during a social event thing the other day. Apparently everyone knows.

    Guys. I really don’t like that coworker. But this is sick. If he’s actually dangerous, he should be fired. And if he’s not, this is something he could probably call a lawyer about if he ever finds out. I have no power, and a job I can’t afford to lose. We are too small to have HR. I probably won’t find another job with perks like I have here. But this sucks.

    There is one thing I could do. One manager I could go to who probably doesn’t know and who would probably be upset to know (though I’m not 100% sure about that). But then I’d be the one who ruined everyone’s… “fun.” And there’s no guarantee anything would change.

    Do I continue to do nothing, or try something?

    1. Youth*

      “Everyone jokes about it.”

      Yeah, you’re right, that is sick. I think you do have to say something. As for what, and when, and how, and to how–I’m at a loss. How do you think you should handle it?

      1. Anon For This*

        If I knew, I wouldn’t ask. I feel like the only one in the company that thinks this is effed up.

        1. Youth*

          Ha, I was digging for a starting place since I know nothing about where you work! But if no one else is concerned, not even the HR types…I mean, I suppose it’s possible that others are secretly aghast, just like you are. But I don’t know how you’d determine that.

        2. SavannahMiranda*

          Your moral compass here sounds accurate. You are correct that it’s cruel and unfair towards him, no matter what his issues are. That at best it’s ineffective as a means of any kind of actual emergency plan, at worst it’s a sham and potentially more dangerous. And that it most likely leaves the company open to some kind of legal action from him were he ever to find out about this mockery. I’m with you on this and I’m reinforcing you in believing this is deeply problematic on many levels.

          Dysfunctional cultures will do things like this. ‘Outsider’ someone (even if there may have been objective reasons why at the beginning) and then stick thorns in that outsidering with additional cruelty. While at the same time wholly failing to appreciate any actual danger and problems that might exist. Because the collective denial helps them deny the part they are also playing. If it gets bad enough it becomes a closed system not open to inquiry. And anyone who might be motivated to blow the whistle comes to fear the same treatment themselves, even if unconsciously.

          If you are determined to try to bring sunlight into this, the one manager you identified sounds like your best bet. Approach them calmly, frame your concern as grave concern for the company (the person having an opening to take legal action), and adjust your approach from there depending on how they react. Unfortunately it’s all too easy for dysfunctional cultures to write off what are actually reasonable concerns for life and safety as “hysteria.” Don’t give the culture anything to work with on that front. Be as firmly objective as possible. Have as much objective proof as possible, whatever that looks like. A text message from a coworker about the new code word. Detailed and consistent recall of a conversation, if that’s your best info. Write notes for yourself beforehand and frame out the conversation. Ask for follow up. Ask for insight and feedback later about what came of it. (You probably won’t get it, but you can ask.)

          Even if nothing comes of it, or if the one manager puts it back on you, you will know that you have done what you can. In the meantime, when the mockery goes around, try not to participate. Question it when that doesn’t endanger you within the culture. Make yourself quietly available for other people who also have a problem with this to notice, and others might start quietly signaling too. These people are your potential allies. Feel them out and see what you can do as a group.

      2. Lilith*

        Who would s/he say something to? I agree it’s a frightening situation and I have no ideas or suggestions. I’m so sorry you are going through this.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      This would be a great question for Alison. I have no idea what you should do, but the whole situation is frankly terrifying.

      1. Anon For This*

        Yeah. I thought about sending it to Alison. But then, my boss knows I read this blog.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Maybe, but if Alison were to say something like, “This is terrible behavior and your boss needs to make sure everyone knocks it off, pronto”, the message might be effective. Especially if it comes with some real solutions on how to handle the situation.

        2. Friday afternoon fever*

          Look back at the podcast transcript archives. One recently was about dealing with an angry and unstable coworker and it has some advice that could apply

        3. ..Kat..*

          Who cares? Your boss sucks for not actually managing this employee. Maybe your manager would gain the impetus to actually do something about this situation after reading about it in AAM. Also, sadly, this situation is not as unique as it should be.

          Looking for a job elsewhere might be the best way to protect yourself from this coworker.

    3. Alex*

      Wow, that is all kinds of f’d up.

      I’m not sure I understand how you would be ruining everyone’s “fun” by telling a manager. Because really this doesn’t sound like fun at all.

      I think it is perfectly reasonable to say something to the manager.

      1. Anon For This*

        They seem to think it’s funny, anyway. :/
        And that manager is pretty low on the list of managers. I don’t know if he can do anything. I don’t even know if he’ll want to. Upper management won’t care, that’s for sure.

        1. General Ginger*

          Your coworkers think that joking about someone’s mental health/substance abuse issue and y’all’s safety is funny? This is an office of Evil Bees, to use Captain Awkward parlance.

          We have one extremely toxic element, in the shape of a single unstable employee
          Nope, he’s not your one toxic element. He’s /a/ toxic element, but the rest of your coworkers also sound toxic as heck.

        2. Miles*

          People who are subconciously scared of something will sometimes make jokes about it as a way of trying to address that fear. I think there’s even a section of cliche-recommendation The Gift of Fear about it, where the author has quotes from a survivor of a mail room bombing talking about how they were joking about the package probably containing a bomb right before it blew up. It’s trying to reconcile knowing something is seriously wrong with not wanting it to be true and not wanting to deal with it. It’s hard to say “I think our lives are in danger if Bob continues to work here” so instead they’re pretending it’s a joke when they say it. I suspect your coworkers are enjoying this “fun” less than you think they are and would be more happy than you think if someone actually addressed this.

    4. Half-Caf Latte*

      My mom had a rule for parenting that served her well over the years, and it’s known around our family as the “Channel 6 rule.”

      If you weren’t sure whether an action was okay, imagine it being the lead story on channel 6 news at 11pm.

      “He always seemed weird. We even developed an active shooter drill specifically for him”

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        I live Metro Detroit.

        My mom used to say, she didn’t want Cheryl Chodun up on her porch, asking her why dear kid did x, y, z.

        *at the time Ms Chodun handle all the hard news stuff.

        My old work place had a coworker substance abused to medicate his out of control mental health issues. Small business so no HR. They were scared to fire him because ADA law and him lawyering up.

        I left after he jumped another coworker with a knife. Didn’t get fired even after that.

        Maybe a lawyer can figure out the legal liabilities of letting him go.

    5. It’s a Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon!*

      I had a very similar coworker a few years ago, everyone joked about him because he threatened to throw his computer out the window, lost his mind at minor inconveniences, went on long, loud tirades about every topic conceivable. Around this time the awful shooting in VA of a reporter and photojournalist by their former colleague.

      If anything WERE to happen, how would you feel if you did not speak up? That’s the question I asked myself, and decided I couldn’t live with the guilt after he made a particularly jarring comment that left me shaking. Yes, everyone else heard it too and nobody else spoke up, but I did anyway. It was dealt with swiftly and quietly by HR, nobody ever knew it was me that reported it.

      By speaking up, you are bringing attention to a serious concern. You are not the bad guy here, nor are you a tattle tale. The worst thing that happens if you are right is he loses his job and/or gets the help he needs. The fact that people felt the need to make new emergency plans if he does act says everything you need to know – they’re scared, but hiding behind gallows humor so as not to seem like an alarmist. Be the alarmist if that is what feels right to you.

      1. Anon For This*

        The thing is, one, I don’t actually think he’s dangerous. I think he’s weird and annoying, and maybe suffering from some mental health issues (what with the alcoholism and some other stuff he told me when I sat next to him for two years). Two, I have nobody to report to. We don’t have HR and most of management is in on it. There’s just the one manager with the potential to be an ally, but even then, I don’t know if he could do anything or if he’d want to.

        He’s never made threats and I’ve never felt scared, just confused, from his actions. I think people around here are mistaking strange for dangerous. But then, I haven’t worked with him as long as some people. So I don’t actually know.

        1. It’s a Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon!*

          Is your concern then how people are talking about him, and going to the manager is intended to get the rest of the office to stop making fun of him? My reading of your question was that you are concerned that the jokes are not really joking and people are actually afraid of him.

          1. Anon For This*

            I don’t know, is the problem. My issue I guess is that if people do think he’s dangerous, if management thinks he’s dangerous, then I don’t like working with a dangerous person and I don’t understand why he’s still here.

            If he isn’t dangerous and nobody really believes he is, then this is bullshit and needs to stop, because it’s toxic and I’d hate to see us turn into a bunch of shitty school yard bullies.

            I don’t know him well enough to make the call, but management is not stepping up on what I personally think is a pretty serious issue and that’s upsetting.

            1. karou*

              What if the next time someone makes that sort of “joke”, you ask them “Do you really think he’s dangerous/would bring a weapon to work/etc.” in a serious tone? Not in a scolding way I mean, more a “should I be concerned?” way. Maybe that would make the person think about what they’re saying, and either realize it’s not funny or force them to admit they are in fact afraid.

              1. notfunny.*

                I think this is a good idea – I might start with this and see what happens. Is there anyone else at work that you trust that you could talk with about the situation?

            2. It’s a Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon!*

              Gotcha. I agree with you that something needs to change, but as an individual employee I think you will have better luck with that manager. They’re outside of this mess and would be a good sounding board, I think you can ask them for their advice without asking them to act in any particular way. You said you haven’t worked there long, but you’ve seen a lot of concerning behaviors from that particular employee and heard a lot of alarming things from almost everyone else and you are uncomfortable but don’t know what you can do. That’s okay to say! The manager likely has more experience with everyone and can decide whether everyone else is a jerk or if there’s more to the toxic employee that needs their attention. A good manager will intervene based on the information your provide, and as others have said you can ask to remain anonymous.

    6. LCL*

      I would talk to the one manager who cares. This is above your pay grade, it sounds like. Since you don’t have the authority to solve it, bring it to the attention of someone who does.

    7. gecko*

      Well, as someone who recently had a coworker who seemed “off” and turned out to have been doing crimes in his spare time, sounds to me like your coworkers and your boss are genuinely worried about this guy and playing it off a little as humor.

      Also (of course) I’ll bring up The Gift of Fear, which has a long section on workplace violence; de Becker mentions that colleagues of the frightening person recognize very strongly that the person is frightening and make jokes about it. He gives a few examples, iirc, of interviewing people after they’ve been through a workplace violence incident and being told, “yeah, we made jokes about this guy shooting up the office.”

      Which is to say: I think you can talk to your boss, your boss’s boss, whoever you think is best in your internal structure, and mention that this guy is pretty frightening. With your boss, you could add, “we joke about it all the time, but it feels like they’re not really jokes, and he feels kinda unsafe to have around. Can I get your thoughts on this?”

      1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        This. Jokes can be a warning sign. “Many a true word spoken in jest”.

        I strongly recommend reading The Gift Of Fear, or, if you already did, re-reading it with the current situation in mind.

        The chapter on domestic violence is widely considered flawed (as in, elements of victim-blaming), but overall it’s a very valuable book. The parts about workplace risk assessments will help you think through this current situation, and then if you’re still uneasy, you’ve also got the possibility of passing on the book to any allies you can identify, to help them see what you’re seeing.

        Wishing you luck – this sounds really stressful.

    8. WomanOfMystery*

      I’d try something like going to my boss and saying, “Hey, this topic is really upsetting to me, can we not joke about it?”

      1. Mbarr*

        This might be the best option. Everyone else has “joked” it until it’s a norm, but it’s dreadfully unfair to the outsider colleague. :(

        It’s a crappy situation to be in. But as another commentor posted, how would you feel if you were in the other person’s shoes?

    9. ExcelJedi*

      Do you legitimately think he’s a threat, or do you think the people you work with are being jerks?

      I think you should go to this other manager, and let them know that you’re not comfortable talking about this and that you’d like to keep it confidential. Ideally, they’ll address it with tact and discretion. But it sounds like the kind of thing that someone needs to shut down, and it sounds like you’re in the best place to make sure that happens.

      1. Anon For This*

        The second one. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if he came in with a weapon, but I sincerely doubt he would, and I’ve heard some of the supervisors say the same. I sat next to him for two years. He’s kind of obnoxious and weird but not actually that bad of a person. He needs help, is what he needs. But that’s really none of my business.

        1. Not Me*

          Except it is your business when it’s impacting your work environment.

          Talk to the boss that cares. Express your concerns. Your co-workers and bosses are creating a hostile work environment due to someones disability (alcoholism, mental health, etc. whether real or perceived). If they don’t take that seriously they are not only bad managers, they are crappy people.

        2. Delphine*

          I wonder if you’re too close to this situation. Based on your descriptions of his behavior, he seems unstable, and if you wouldn’t be surprised if he brought a gun to work, then I think it’s not unreasonable to imagine that he’s potentially dangerous as well.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Yeah. :(
            I like to think the best of people. So I’m probably the least qualified to assess this guy’s danger potential.

              1. SarahKay*

                If you want Alison to remove your named comments, put in a comment to Alison asking her to do it and add in a hyperlink to the request – that sends it to moderation so you know Alison’ll probably see it fairly quickly.

            2. Faith*

              Yeah, “I wouldn’t be surprised if he came in with a weapon” is alarming! I would be surprised if any of my coworkers did! (Well, and terrified too, of course.) You should speak up.

    10. Iris Eyes*

      “I think it is great to have a plan in place for a variety of emergency situations, and I also think its great when anyone who is having performance issues, including unprofessional interactions with coworkers is coached and held accountable.”

      Joking about people behind their back, not professional. Fits of rage, unprofessional.

    11. Agent J*

      I think you should say something, for distinct reasons:
      1) Coworker is a bright crimson flag. Joking might be their way of coping with their fear of Coworker doing something violent but something still needs to be said in an official capacity (e.g,. email, meeting with the manager, etc.). I would also make it a Big Deal about your and your coworkers’ safety. Workplace violence is not something to handle with dismiss lightly.

      2) For your own personal ethics. God forbid something happens, at least you know you did your best to do something about it. Even if management does nothing, at least it’ll be documented somewhere that they knew and prepared but didn’t do their best to prevent it. It’s okay to be known as the alarmist with this.

    12. Jess*

      First of all, you actually have TWO toxic elements — an unstable employee, and a work culture/leadership that is both unwilling to take action and escalating the danger through its own behaviors. It’s pretty much the same dynamic that was in place in the U.S. government in 2017 and 2018. So, for the long term, I’d suggest beginning to work on your own exit plan.

      Short-term, yes, talk to the one manager. It’s often helpful to know if someone’s an ally as well as how much they’re willing to stick their own neck out.

      Beyond that, not sure what to suggest…. I am torn because it is hard to tell whether your assessment that this guy is *not* dangerous is on target or hopeful. Which, actually, THAT is something you can do something about — Gavin deBecker, who someone else mentioned, has an online threat assessment tool called the Mosaic Method. A google search should get you there. Free for domestic violence, I’m pretty sure there’s a charge for the workplace threat assessment, but it seems reasonable to ask your boss to have the company pay to do that. And, the simple act of you requesting that might jar some of your colleagues to take this out of the scary joke arena into the action arena.

      Hope this is helpful.

    13. SJ*

      Absolutely say something to someone! Approach it from several angles…first, it’s creating an unsafe work place for you to be in. Second…which may actually work better…IF he did do something and it got out publicly (and we all know it will no matter what kind of damage control companies do) that they made a joke out of it and didn’t address the root cause of whatever happens…major LAWSUIT. Do they really want to risk the bad publicity and the potential legal issues even if they apparently don’t care about your safety?

    14. Kathenus*

      Various comments have touched on parts of this but I would pick the most appropriate person (manager you reference, possibly) and address it on two fronts:
      1) If this person is actually considered dangerous, and people including management are actively aware of and discussing it, it is not only an employee safety issue but an organization liability one. Action needs to be taken to safeguard all involved.
      2) If this is a joke and people do not believe he is dangerous, this is incredibly inappropriate in multiple ways. The employee, should he find out, could try to make a case against the employer for being a party to slander (not sure if this is the legally appropriate term for this, so apologies if not). And by joking about such a serious topic, the organization is showing incredibly poor judgment by allowing it to be a topic for joking which could have future negative implications (not taking it seriously if there is an actual future threat, employees seeing that the organization will allow employees to be talked about disparagingly including by management without repercussions)

      In this day and age workplace violence is not a joke. This is at best inappropriate and at worst unsafe. Those points can hopefully help someone in management be persuaded to stop this. Good luck.

    15. Jules the 3rd*

      I would get very earnest and a little boring:
      1) Ask your boss, seriously, if the employee is considered a real threat
      If yes: Why is he still employed?
      If no: “But people are joking about it – that’s like making fun of mental illness, which is (wide eyed gasp) a possible harassment issue! If he figures it out, he could sue! Can you guide me in some ways to reduce this harassment?” Act as if your boss would *of course* like his office to be professional and non-harassing! Of course! (Note: I deliberately slid from ‘possible’ to ‘actual’ harassment in this script – it’s a very effective way to enlist support. It is actually harassment, the ‘possible’ is the disingenuous part.)
      If hem / haw / it’s just a joke: same as ‘no’
      2) Mention to the sympathetic boss, with the ‘possible harassment! suit!’ angle
      3) When the jokes are made around you, be boring, straight face (no nervous smile), ‘that’s not funny’, ‘that’s such a mean thing to say’, ‘don’t mock coworkers, that’s so unprofessional’.

      But #3 especially takes a *lot* of social capital to be effective. If you aren’t a team lead, already well and widely liked, or can’t get your boss to support you, you’ll probably just get the backlash, so approach this cautiously. And slowly – you may need to have 2 – 3 casual conversations with your boss about ‘can you believe how unprofessional people are being by harassing Fergus? I hope he doesn’t get any legal ideas!’ before you can get him on board.

      Good luck…

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I would have to try to do something.
      Can you look at his social media (incognito) to see if you notice anything concerning?
      Do you know a qualified professional who might help your bosses figure out what is up here?
      Can your bosses check for a police record? There is a nationwide criminal database. Not everything makes it into the database, but if he does have a record listed that would tell you something.

      In my dreams, Alison does a panel discussion with experts to help people figure out these types of concerns. You are not the only one facing this stuff and you are not a member of a small group of concerned people, either. There is a legit need here.

    17. Observer*

      You’re obviously there and I’m not, but I suspect that you are wrong about why people are joking around.You say down below that some others say that they would be surprised if he actually brought a gun in. That says that this is a topic of real concern to people whether or not they are saying things in a joking fashion or not. Also, the fact that someone seriously set up this code and made it their business to let everyone know means that someone is actually SERIOUSLY concerned about this.

      To be honest, it doesn’t sound unreasonable. You have someone who is paranoid, an alcoholic with unmanaged anger. Maybe he’s never bring in a gun, but it surprises me that you think he’d never get violent.

      I think that the way to approach it is “I’m concerned that we have an employee who is so volatile that we’re even seriously talking about whether he would show up with guns, and what to do if he snaps, and all we are doing is joking about it rather than taking concrete action. What can we do to protect ourselves?”

      This language works regardless of whether he is dangerous or not. You’re not calling anyone jerks or anything like that. But, you are calling out inappropriate behavior. Because if they guy is dangerous, that needs to be dealt with. And if he really isn’t and they don’t think he is, you’ve just highlighted how in appropriate it is to joke about it.

    18. valentine*

      This guy is textbook dangerous.
      You’re not safe at work.
      Being unemployed is better than being his victim.
      You may call the police non-emergency number at any time.

      Threat: Substance abuse, paranoia (though he’s right to feel persecuted), crying and screaming at colleagues. Response: minimizing his violence (“He cried and screamed in our faces, but we didn’t think he’d do anything”), yet planning for it. He’s done multiple things. He’s escalating. Get out before he gets to the end.

    19. Nana*

      Another thought…call the non-emergency police line (probably from home), describe the issue, and ask what THEY think is the best/safest way to deal. This is the kind of thing they want to know…rather than finding out when the guy lashes out (see the news, at least once a month — in the US)

  14. Anon anony*

    There is one co-worker, “Fergus”, whom I sometimes have to work with or help out with a project. I don’t see him that often, but he reminds me of Old Toxic Boss from previous toxic work place. Fergus is a moody, arrogant jerk but covers it well with humour and his ability to manipulate others. He’s a charmer, but it’s not genuine.

    Fergus first made me nervous because shortly after I started he snapped at me when I had to talk to him about something work related. I don’t know if he was trying to intimidate me, but he then would stare at me with this intense stare that was extremely unsettling. He does this from afar, so no one else witnesses it except me. When I’m near him, he acts like I’m weird and I caught him literally standing behind me making fun of me.

    It is to the point where I avoid him. This has led coworkers to think something is going on between us because they’ve asked me about it. No. No. No. The opposite. Fergus gives me the creeps. I think he’s gaslighting me.

    My co-workers and boss know Fergus and his family; they’re friendly with him. So I don’t think I could tell any of them, without it getting back to him. I feel like a crazy person.

    I don’t have to deal with him that often, but he is social with those around me, so he is in my area sometimes. Besides running away every time he is near, what can I do? How do I reframe it so that he doesn’t remind me of ex-boss? How can I stay calm?

    1. Asenath*

      Don’t run away from him because that just allows the situation to worsen. Ignore him except for what’s necessary for work, and ask him if you’ve got a spot on your nose if he stares or call him rude if you turn around and and catch him mocking you. In other words, don’t escalate, but also do call him out if he behaves badly. He sounds more like a nuisance than a danger, so tell yourself that, and remind yourself that he’s not your boss. He’s just an office nuisance.

          1. Autumnheart*

            It means, act normal so he seems awkward. For example, “I’ve seen Fergus stare at me, I’ve heard him making fun of me, and just generally acts really weird anytime I’m in the room. I don’t know what his problem is! I wish he’d stop.” Let it get back to him! The gaslighting only works because people don’t know he’s doing it.

          2. Friday afternoon fever*

            It means, sort of, that if they do something awkward, address it normally and directly — let them sit with the weirdness of their own behavior instead of feeling like they’re justified in their poor behavior and you’re obligated to find a way to accommodate it without “making” the situation awkward in your response.

    2. PizzaDog*

      Stare back at him until he gets uncomfortable and turn away. If you catch him making fun of you, ask him “Is there something I can help you with?”

    3. Adminx2*

      Deep breaths. It’s GREAT he reminds you of ex boss so you know never to let your guard all the way down. The response is “That’s very unsettling how you stare like that, can you stop now?” and “Obviously we have different perceptions of weird, I prefer iconoclastic.”
      He really does seem like the guy who loves finding a target and it’s you. The clincher? Once you SAY those sentences, clearly and firmly, wait. Just wait. Calmly. Don’t rile up, don’t laugh if he tries to laugh it off. Just wait until he runs through his routine and shirks away. Then another deep breath and you move on.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      When you coworkers ask you about it, ask them WHY they are asking. Or say, “Someone else mentioned this. I thought it was weird and just blew it off. But now you are mentioning it, what’s up here?”

      Once in a rare while, cohorts might realize someone has a problem. But if that person won’t say there is a problem then the cohorts really cannot help.

  15. Awkward anon*

    Maybe it’s just the work places that I’ve been in, but in my last job, I would talk and laugh with my boss. This made people to tease us and think there was something going on between us- there wasn’t.

    In my current job, there is one guy that is a moody jerk and I try to avoid him and don’t talk to him unless it’s about work. This made my coworkers think we like each other/there is something going on between us.

    I get nervous around guys and laugh, but it’s just who I am. Otherwise I get quiet and nervous around them. (I’m trying to work on it.)

    Am I doing something wrong? How do you get people to stop talking about this stuff?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know how to effectively get people to stop, but you should be able to talk and laugh with people—that isn’t expressing romantic interest or being weird or unprofessional.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      Oh wow, NO.

      Please don’t take this to heart, your coworkers are ridiculous. Good luck finding your next position somewhere tha isn’t populated by 14 year-olds.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you work with junior high aged children? That’s obnoxious and childish behavior on their part not yours. Not every woman interacting with a man is flirting, that’s an asinine assumption. They sound emotionally stunted.

      Pay them no mind and keep going as you normally would.

      1. teacher girl*

        I do work with junior high kids and even they realize you can talk to people without it being flirting.

    5. Iris Eyes*

      “Oh yeah, I guess Rodger is a guy. I guess he’s just funny”

      But on your end acting differently around people because of their gender is probably something to try and work on. Just because you have established patterns doesn’t mean you can’t bravely clear a new path. I say this because people assuming this is a pattern, not just one group of people so there is probably something other than a love of drama and gossip that is contributing.

    6. Shark Whisperer*

      You’re not doing anything wrong. Do your coworkers bring this up to you directly? If so, when they say something to you, just give them a pained/ confused expression and say something along the lines of “You know Grey’s Anatomy [or insert any other primetime workplace drama] isn’t a documentary, right? In the real world, coworkers aren’t having secret affairs they mostly dislike the people they are forced to interact with in order to get paid”

      1. Awkward anon*

        No- nothing has ever been said to my face. I hear them make comments about it to each other, but I’m quiet because it’s embarrassing and I don’t know how to address them.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Next time you overhear something like this, ca you just walk over and say, “that coworker is rude and obnoxious towards me, so I just try to avoid him. Does he treat other coworkers this way?” And, if they say yes, you can follow up with, “how do these employees deal with it?”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “How do you get people to stop talking about this stuff?”

      You don’t.
      People will do people-y things and there is no stopping them.

      We cannot control other people’s thoughts and other people’s conversations.

      Your best bet here is to work on accepting the fact that people gossip about other people. It’s a part of life. Families gossip about each other. Tenants sharing an apartment building gossip about each other. It’s pretty much every where.

      Try to rise above it. One way is to recognize that you know what is true about you and what is not. Let’s say someone gossips that I am stealing. I know for a fact that I am not stealing. That is the number one thing I need to know and take satisfaction in- that I know this is not true. Now, because stealing can be a work related offense, I might go to the boss to complain about false accusations. That would be an action step.

      In your case, you might be able to just ask the person to repeat what they just said. Asking people to repeat something negative like this can cause them to stop short. If they do say, “I said you were interested in Steve.” Then you can say, “Oh. That’s a weird thing to say.” And go back to your work to show the comment meant nothing to you. Or you can just tell them to stop. If they do not stop you can report it to the boss. Your dating life/love interest does not belong in the workplace. Neither does anyone else’s dating life/love interest.

  16. Susan*

    It’s been a tiring and frustrating week…One of my staff gave their resignation after being out for the entire month due to health issues. I’ll miss her but it also means that we can’t let go of one staff like we desperately need to. Losing staff at this time of year is always tough.

    But the biggest source of frustration this week has been that another team is “borrowing” 2 people from our team. It’s upsetting b/c for years we’ve worked hard to build a good team, and now that we’re doing well, other teams decide that they can take our staff. We can’t do anything about it b/c this comes from our boss. When pushed back she says, “we always helped you, now you return the favor.” Except we’ve always been in a position where we had no choice but to ask for help. We’ve constantly been understaffed, boss would take first dibs on the good candidates for their team. The staff we had that did have issues, they were thrown counteroffers or nearly impossible to get rid of. Anyone we try to get rid of, HR shuts us down and is scared to death of litigation.

    The best way I can explain it is the broken car analogy. You’re given a broken car. You spend years fixing it. Now that car is running beautifully and the person who gave it to you wants to scrap it for parts by saying “we need it, you owe us.”

    When I first started here, I thought I was being set up for failure, but worked through it and dismissed it as an irrational fear. Years and movements later, I’m starting to see that maybe there’s a bit of truth to that b/c I’m seeing it now on a much bigger level.

      1. Susan - OP of this post*

        Not at all.

        Although this has never ever ever occurred to me/us.

        (I’m using “us/we” because I manage this team alongside my colleague, so we are co-managing).

        1. valentine*

          She’s a horrible manager. A good one would seek balance whilst leveling up staff. She’s got you spinning your wheels. This doesn’t seem sustainable for you.

    2. Lisa*

      I’m a little confused about your structure. Does your boss manage you, and you manage your team, but your boss also directly manages another team? If that’s the case, is your boss more loyal to the “direct” team? Or does that other team have its own direct manager who is your peer, but your boss still favors them? If it’s along those lines then I would try to understand, if you don’t already, why your boss is biased in that way. Is she held less accountable for the results of your team? Is the other team higher-profile or more glamorous in some way? Is their work more aligned with her own background, or she in other ways better “gets” them? Is there a way you can make it more in her interest for your team to succeed?

      If not, is there another leader in the organization who can champion for you? For instance, if you are teapot support and you roll up under teapot marketing, you might find better sponsorship from teapot engineering or teapot sales. Or if there is a financial factor in play – like the company saves money when your team does well – then the CFO becomes your new best friend. They can lean on your boss to help you be more successful, even if she doesn’t see the value.

      This is pretty hypothetical because I don’t know all the factors at play. But somehow, find a way to make it more in her interest – or in the interest of someone who can influence her – to help you succeed.

  17. Michelle*

    My slacker coworker officially resigned, but her manager has not announced her last day. He sent a “coworker has accepted a new position, wish her well, blah, blah, blah”. Would it be tacky to ask? She’s my counterpart and I may have to take on some of her duties if a replacement is not hired quickly.

    1. Susan Calvin*

      Not tacky at all! Be clear about why you ask (because it affects your work, not just rubbernecking), and try not to sound too gleeful, but then you’re good.

    2. Plain Jane*

      I would forward the resignation email announcement to your own manager and ask if you’ll be picking up her tasks and if so, what’s her last day?

    4. Michelle*

      Thanks! It would be a normal question for any other department, but this particular coworker is…sensitive. They get offended if they think someone is “disrespectful” or “criticizing” them, which is kind of ironic considering they do just enough to get by.

      1. WellRed*

        Who cares if they get offended. They are leaving! Seriously though, if you can’t say anything to her ask your boss about work duties and assume they are gone in about two weeks.

        1. Michelle*

          I just found out through “grapevine” she’s not leaving until March 29th! I’ll have to fake being nice for another month. I don’t want to spend the next month playing middle school “I’m not speaking to you” games with her. SO glad she is leaving. I hope the next person is reasonable.

    5. Adminx2*

      Perhaps instead ask on Monday to send “Jane has left, we are working on a replacement but please be patient as we balance a heavier workload.”

    3. whistle*

      Aw, my knitting group is on Thursdays, too! :)

      If I was at home today I would knit, read, and watch Buffy. It’s too dreary to go outside.

    4. Youth*

      Touché! Okay, if you were able to work today, what would you want that to look like? What would you be doing?

    5. Youth*

      Wow, are we the same person? That’s basically my to-do list most weekends. And I also haven’t been sleeping well!

  19. Tigger*

    Hi guys!
    My trip this week to the main office went great and now the ceo wants me to come to that office more for training. The snag is that my boss doesn’t think that it is needed and he can teach me everything (it is just him and I in our office). Any ideas?

    1. Jaid*

      Doesn’t your CEO outrank your boss? Let him know that your boss proclaimed himself the subject matter expert and can handle it.

      Just kidding. Sorry.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Do you want to go to the CEO’s office or would you rather your boss train you?
      Let your boss know your preference, if you would prefer to work with the boss. And let him know why you prefer to train with him. Then, yeah, let them duke it out. But give your boss some talking points to use.

    4. OhNo*

      If you do indeed want to train some more with the CEO or in the main office, perhaps you could present it to your boss as gaining a different kind of knowledge. Like, boss can and will train you on the details of X and Y, but you’d also like to train a bit more with the central office so you can see how they use X on a different project, or how Y interacts with B, or how your department fits in with the broader organizational structure/goals, or to get some face time in to develop a rapport with people you’ll be supporting remotely. Whatever makes sense for your organization.

      1. ten-four*

        Agree on trying to get trained BOTH by your boss and the CEO. At the end of the day the CEO runs things, number cruncher or no, and it’s good to have relationships with as many senior people as possible.

        In my current job I wound up in a weird spot; my boss was the pillar of the company and he and the CEO did not see eye to eye. Welp, turns out that he got fired for harassment (I’m high enough up that I got the details and they were indeed damning) and the CEO became my boss. I was glad that I had a good relationship with the CEO too, although it wasn’t as in-depth. (Added bonus: the company as a whole is in a MUCH better place now. Turns out people who are willing to harass their co-workers are also bad at their jobs in other ways!)

        At any rate, hopefully you won’t get that level of drama between Guru Boss and number cruncher CEO. But with that particular kind of expertise division I’d guess you’re at risk to find yourself on the Boss’s faction vs. the CEO if things took a turn. Taking steps to build a separate relationship with the CEO seems like a good move.

  20. Susan Calvin*

    It’s 5pm where I am, and that means it’s nearing the end of my last workday for THREE WEEKS.

    No travel or anything big planned, just. Blessed peace and quiet. You guys. I’m so happy. Happy and tired.

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      I hear you. I have 14 more workdays (including some craziness like report cards and parent teacher interviews) and then I’m off for two glorious weeks!!! Enjoy your peace and quiet!

  21. AnonToday*

    Fun one this week: I found out through the grapevine that one of our employees (who has a habitually negative attitude) wasn’t out sick two days, but was on an extended interview. Supposedly he’ll be leaving without giving actual notice (since he plans on using his PTO for the “notice”). Everyone on his team is confused over what this means next, and I can’t take substantive action until I hear it straight from the horse’s mouth. Is it worth talking to him this afternoon or just let him slow roll this through the weekend? I don’t want to expose my source on the grapevine without reason but this waiting around is very tedious.

    1. A Teacher*

      Did he have the sick time to use? If so, I’d be irritated to find out a coworker “outed” my appointment to the boss–this is why a lot of people are not up front about job searching.

    2. Alice*

      Longterm, this is great news for you, right? The guy with the habitually negative attitude is leaving.
      I’d talk to him at some point before he goes on the vacation you mention being planned (at least, I assume that it’s planned). But I don’t see why it needs to happen today. I think you are better off living with some uncertainty over the weekend.

    3. Meh.*

      I don’t think you can ask point-blank “did you use your sick time to take two days of for an interview”, employees don’t have to disclose medical reasons for taking sick time. I think you just need to sit back and wait and make as much of a contingency plan as possible for his “unexpected” departure. On the bright side, you do know about it, so you can prepare (has he actually gotten an offer for the new job? just because he had an extended interview doesn’t mean he has an offer) Count your blessings that you’ll have one less bad apple in your department.

    5. Autumnheart*

      Don’t talk to him. You don’t have any substantiated information yet, and having an interview doesn’t guarantee that he gets the job. You’ll need to wait until he resigns before you do anything.

      But you know that he’s looking. For that matter, any member of your team could be looking. What would you do next if anyone else left? If you need to build in some redundancy on your team so that you aren’t left in the lurch by an abrupt departure, this would be good motivation to do it. If things aren’t documented, files not backed up, only one person knows how to do a vital thing that impacts everyone’s work, etc. this is a good cue to get ahead of it.

      1. Diane Lockhart (lurker/newish commenter)*

        I wouldn’t say anything to him. When he resigns and declares he’s using PTO for his notice period, deny the PTO request (assuming you have the power to do that?). As Alison has written before, notice periods are for transitioning work; they’re not giveaways to the resigning employee. Does your company pay out unused vacation time? If so, that underscores the expectation that employees are meant to be present for their notice periods.

          1. valentine*

            No, let him take the PTO. When you want someone gone and they leave of their own accord, accept the gift.

        2. Darren*

          I wouldn’t actually expect him to resign. My read of this is he is going to use the PTO, and then send a message on his last day of PTO saying he won’t be at work on Monday as he has resigned his position. Due to there being no legal requirement for a notice period (in the US for at will employment, silly of them to do that you really should put in a symmetrical required notice period) there would be nothing illegal about that.

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Agree with Autumnheart. Based on a post earlier this week — be sure to back up his computer files to a place he can’t access and assign him to cross-train, if necessary. No need to say why since it’s just good business practice anyway. Make up your own contingency plan on whose going to take over his tasks — which again is good business, since any employee can get “hit by a bus” at anytime.

  22. Never*

    I just found out that a certain type of work-sponsored event that takes place during work hours at work that all staff are encouraged to attend does not count as work time.

    This is getting ridiculous.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You said staff are encouraged to attend. Does that mean that it’s actually optional? Or is it just “optional” but really required?

    2. Hallowflame*

      If you think attending this event will benefit you enough through networking or skill building to offset the unpaid time, I would go. If it’s just a glorified reception with your peers where you will have no opportunity to meet new people or learn something useful to your job, I’d skip it.

    3. FLSA fan*

      Are you in the U.S.?

      If so, the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) “Hours Worked” factsheet states:

      “Lectures, Meetings and Training Programs: Attendance at lectures, meetings, training programs and similar activities need not be counted as working time only if four criteria are met, namely: it is outside normal hours, it is voluntary, not job related, and no other work is concurrently performed.”

      Note that ALL four criteria must be met for you to not be paid for these types of activities, so anything like this that occurs during normal work hours automatically counts as “hours worked” regardless of whether or not attendance is optional. The only potential ambiguity would be whether or not the event would be fall under “lectures, meetings, training programs and similar activities.”

  23. Anomalymous*

    Need to vent a bit, I realize there’s not much to be done…

    My boss is constantly traveling and lives an hour away from the office, so when he isn’t traveling he mostly chooses to work from home. We see him in the office 2-4 days per month, on average (which most of us like bc he’s a bit of an odd duck).

    But on the days when he does come into the office, it is all but guaranteed that he has a dentist/chiropractic/doctor appointment, or a tennis clinic, or his adult children come by to visit with him. When he’s not attending to appointments and family visits, he’s doing personal things like wrapping Christmas presents, sorting through the voluminous personal mail he receives at the work address, and generally doing anything but managing.

    It’s frustrating. It doesn’t necessarily need to be him, but we need someone in charge who is actually interested in leading and managing.

    1. NotAMadScientist*

      Do you have a grand-boss? Anyone above him? Start a paper trail of all the times you wanted to ask him or needed something from him but he was unavailable, emails are a good way to log it.

        1. NotAMadScientist*

          Ouch. Then I guess you have to decide if it’s something you can live with or if it’s time to job hunt? I’m sorry I don’t have better advice.

          1. Anomalymous*

            Yeah, I’m planning my exit strategy but it’ll take a while. Overall I’m happy to stick around… this boss just really bugs me.

    2. catwoman2965*

      Oh do we work for the same person? Not quite but my one boss does this too. She’s not far from the office, and generally only works one day from home, but sometimes more, depending on what’s going on in her personal life. Because she is the type who thinks that PTO should ONLY be used for “fun” things, therefore all her dr. appts (of which there are so many you would think she’s at death’s door), errands at lunch (frequently 2+ hours multiple times a week), and generally just coming and going as she pleases.

      She’s also bad at “keeping track of her time” and think that “working from home” for an hour in the am, then maybe taking 3+ hours for something, and “dialing back in” for 15 minutes at the end of the day constitutes working a full day, and no PTO is necessary. So ends up at the end of the year (by her own calculations) with use it or lose it time. Which my direct boss and I both know is total BS but there is no accountability from upper management nor anything we can do.

      Me? If i have something going on, I’ll take a half day of PTO, as do most people. And my company generally is flexible, which is nice, but I would say 99% of employees DO NOT take advantage. But its nice to be able to when needed. But we also generally schedule any kind of appt OUTSIDE working hours.

      I’ll also add she’s rather a rather abrasive, Captain know it all, who thinks she knows everything about everything, thinks rules and policies, whether work related or not, are “stupid” and so on. So she’s not particularly well liked at all. And i can only hope karma comes back to bite her sometime!

      1. Anomalymous*

        OOF. Yup.
        This year I told boss I’d like *someone who is in the office regularly and who sees my work* to write my review and for that to be directly connected to my raise and bonus and his reply was that “it’s intuitive.” FFS.
        Our office culture is suuuuuuper laid back (people bring dogs to work, there’s no dress code, we all kind of do our own work without supervision) so all of my complaints have to be taken in that context, but STILL. It feels like, because boss isn’t in the office 95% of the time, he honestly thinks we’re all chillaxing when he’s not there.

  24. considering Western Governors University*

    Do hiring managers and managers generally in the AMA commenting group respect Western Governors University degrees? I would love to learn more about analytics or strategy (for my own growth more than for name prestige) without tens of thousands of dollars of MBA student loan debt, but I don’t want to find out later that this cheaper, nonprofit option is actually seen as an outright scam despite the generally positive reviews online.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In general, I’ve found that WGU is more of a “I’ve been doing this for fifteen years but need a specific piece of paper to check an arbitrary tickybox” type of program than a “I want to learn this stuff from scratch” type. (I say that as a current WGU student who has been a working HIM professional for over fifteen years, including four and change in management, and has a BS in public health and two masters degrees, but can’t take the RHIA certification exam without specifically a BS in HIM because the organization that administers the certification is super finicky. So back to school I go for a fourth higher ed degree. :P ) Once I finish the degree and pass the exam, I *probably* won’t even leave the WGU degree on my resume — just the certification.

      1. considering Western Governors University*

        Thank you, this is helpful! Sounds like it’s not likely to be worth putting on my resume. If I seriously pursue this, I’ll try and talk to a few MBA grads and see what they think of the learn-from-scratch potential – that would be my goal and if that part isn’t useful /and/ I couldn’t put it on my resume, there wouldn’t be much point. :P

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed. WGU has a decent reputation, certainly better than UoP and other for-profits. It’s known to be a great option for working professionals who need to complete a college degree and have a lot of credits.

      1. Uh-oh*

        Is UoP University of People? My SO and his friend are both going there, but I haven’t looked into it much. Is it a scam or not respected by hiring managers?

        1. SavannahMiranda*

          UoP usually means University of Phoenix – one of the biggest operators in shammy schools.

          Looking at UoPeople it looks like they hold a national accreditation. Which sounds good but it’s a weird thing that *regional* accreditations actually mean far more than national ones.

          As a random example the City University of New York (CUNY) is accredited by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. Doesn’t sound impressive like ‘nationally accredited’ does – but it means far, far more.

          All by itself that doesn’t mean UoPeople is shammy. Just a red flag to look deeper.

          1. Uh-oh*

            Thank you! I’m not familiar at all with accreditation standards at all, but you’ve given me some keywords to look into!

          2. Mobuy*

            UoP is not scammy. I got a degree in school counseling and the teachers were all real working professionals, unlike my ed degree from a traditional school where most of the professors taught for one year a couple of decades ago. I think UoP has a worse reputation on AAM than anywhere in the real world.

      2. considering Western Governors University*

        Thank you, good to know that higher ed sees it as respectable! Some of my career prospects are there.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I have a friend who’s worked for WGU for years, it’s not a scam, just aimed more at working adults.

      1. considering Western Governors University*

        Thanks for your reply! I know WGU isn’t a scam, I’m just interested in whether hiring managers do. I’m glad there are alternative options out there for working adults.

    4. Rock Prof*

      While I don’t know much about WGU’s reputation in most fields, I’ve had lots of friends and colleagues who have taught (temporarily or as a full-time job) for it. The classes are legit if a bit standardized, and they were putting the same amount of teaching, grading, and interacting as I do when I teach an online course through the state school I teach at.

      1. considering Western Governors University*

        Interesting, thank you! I’ll have to reach out to someone in the MBA program to see how good it is at teaching business concepts from scratch if I decide to pursue this.

    5. ..Kat..*

      If you want an MBA, I suggest you look elsewhere. MBAs aren’t just about having one. Where you get it matters. And WGU is not a good enough school. Especially when you would be spending tens of thousands of dollars.

      Do any schools in your area have a decent reputation and offer an “Executive MBA?” This is an MBA for people with work experience who need to work while going to school. Tend to have classes on weekends and nights.

      1. considering Western Governors University*

        Thanks for your reply, but like I said in my initial comment, this would be more for my personal growth in understanding business concepts than the name prestige of “having” an MBA from one of the top schools. I’m considering it because WGU is the one place it can be done /without/ going tens of thousands of dollars into debt. Obviously if I want to pay $150k I will get my money’s worth at a high tier school. For $7k I might consider just learning the concepts if putting it on my resume wouldn’t actively degrade it.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Some places offer free seminars on business stuff. Is that a possibility for you? Since you aren’t actually interested in the MBA, but the concepts?

          1. considering Western Governors University*

            I’ve thought about doing a “free MBA” through MOOCs but I’d have to pay something for a lot of those too, plus do a lot of legwork to find courses for everything I’d need and roll them into a program for myself. I’m not sure a free seminar is as useful as a full, formal introduction to all the skills I’m interested in with the extra bonus of accountability for the material, but if you know of any seminar programs that are that complete I’d love to hear about them.

    6. iMBA through UIUC and Coursera*

      Super late – but you can consider doing the iMBA program on Coursera in conjunction with UIUC. UIUC’s entire MBA curriculum is free on Coursera (so you don’t have to build your own). You can audit all their classes for free, pay Coursera to get a cert if you want, take it for-credit (then you pay the university) or can enroll as a full degree grad student. I’m actually in their iMBA program (will get a MBA degree from UIUC when I’m done). It is super affordable ($22k) and everything is done online. I’m also learning everything “from scratch”. I don’t come from a business background (I work in healthcare on the clinical side) and have found the program to cover a wide-span of business topics. I’m almost halfway done with the program and really like it. Google: Illinois imba for more info.

  25. softcastle mccormick*

    I’ve spent the better part of this week wracked with anxiety after a truly excellent phone interview for a very competitive internal position at our corporate branch. It went longer than expected, I hit it off well with the interviewer, and she said that even though they were originally looking for someone with a little more specific experience, she was so impressed with our conversation and all the things she’d heard about me that I was a very competitive candidate.

    But…it’s been four business days and I haven’t heard anything yet. I know it’s crazy for me to expect to hear back yet since she specifically said that it’s an incredibly busy time in the department (preparing for a long international scouting trip), but I can’t help but refresh my e-mail obsessively. I just want to /know/ I didn’t get it so I can get back to my real life and get my head out of the clouds. Sigh. The worst that can happen is that I’ve shown my initiative for future positions.

    1. theletter*

      Put it out of your mind!!! You have to just let them make their decision in their own mind.

  26. Jaid*

    I stayed home this week with a bad cold and no desire to share with the rest of the unit. I am bored, though. I’m lucky I like my coworkers enough to miss talking to them…

    1. SaaSyPaaS*

      I hope you feel better soon. I had one job where I would feel the same way about missing work due to illness. It was such a great group of people. We all still keep in touch too.

  27. De Minimis*

    I have an interview scheduled for next week! Very excited, it would be a return to the field that I’ve been the most interested in over these last few years, and would be a promotion [at least in title.] It’s non-profit so I’m a little concerned about the pay [they didn’t give a salary range in the job posting…] but we’ll see how it goes.

    I’ve been in my current job just over six months but it’s just not a fit for me and has zero growth potential.

  28. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Wahoo! As I always knew I would I got into another interview I had this week and OWNED IT, per my ex-CEO’s instructions on how to do things efficiently.

    It is a 2 week period to start with a discussion about the FT role at the end of the two weeks. So, freelance to permanent. I previously interviewed with them last year in April, they went with someone else, and contacted me in December to see if I was available for freelance work.

    They’d be looking to start me next week and are looking for my freelance rate, which I admit is giving me a bit of anxiety. Having freelanced before I don’t know what my hangup is about talking money, but it’s just one of those things I have to go in and rip that band-aid off very quickly and then it’s over.

    This would be an EXCELLENT move for me, I feel.

  29. Anon4This*

    How do you emotionally detach from a company that you don’t respect, in an environment where it’s almost impossible to affect any change? Technically my job is very simple (too simple, really) and I should be able to clock in, clock out, and not worry about much. But in practice I find myself getting incredibly frustrated and often even disgusted by how things are managed. There are projects I’ve been working on for 1.5 years that are no further along now than they were back then because there is so much bureaucratic nonsense and incompetency. If that weren’t frustrating enough, the company continues to make changes that negatively impact the employees (like taking away benefits) and infantilizes us. I know the long-term solution is “Find a new Job” but in the short-term, how do I put in my 40 hours without getting constantly upset at the way things are?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish there were a magic bullet to this. I’ve been in situations like that, and unfortunately “find a new job” was the only real solution, and I was just miserable until then. I know that’s not super encouraging, but…

    2. Dame Judi Brunch*

      I went through this. What worked for me was getting my resume together and working on my interview skills. (Outside of work hours) Having something to occupy my mind helped, as well as knowing I was preparing myself for getting out. It changed my mindset from hopeless to hopeful.

    3. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I experience this too. It’s draining! Sometimes I observe myself getting worked up/frustrated/disgusted/exhausted by certain inefficiencies and especially mismanagement and when I realize it’s happening I tell myself: just work hard and do a good job for the 8 hours I’m here each day. I can’t do it all, and it’s not my money being wasted. It’s not my burden to bear.
      I’m also applying for a master’s program to get on a different career path… it’s going to take a while because I’m planning to continue working full time, but just having a light at the end of the tunnel makes a big difference to my mental state when I get frustrated with my job.

      1. DataGirl*

        You sound like one of my colleagues :)

        I was hoping to give this place at least 2 years since my last job was only 6 months (I’m at the 14 month mark now). Part of my problem is that the job I was hired for/job title is vastly different from the work I’m actually doing. I come from a specialized skill set and fear I am losing all those skills because they don’t have me doing any of that work. So I am working on some certifications on my own time that will hopefully be helpful when I go to look for a new job.

      2. Bananafish*

        What would you recommend if working harder and doing a good job means exacerbating the very practices and problems that you find disgusting or unethical? If I were to do my job ethically, the company would go out of business (no legal issues, just moral ones). If I do my job well based on the yard sticks that measure success in this industry, I need to exploit people with very few resources to even recognize their being exploited.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      I feel this in a big way. My temporary solutions would be to find a ventmate, somebody you like in the office who feels the exact same way you do. Then get together for a drink or a coffee and just vent it all out.

      If you can’t find one, just repeat to yourself, “not my business, not my monkeys”. The problem with these kinds of environments is that they make you feel like you can see the incompetency on every level, but because you can only do your work, you can’t really fix the problem on every level, only your own. So stick to your lane, keep your head down, and the next time you think, “Why don’t they just do X or do Y better, then this wouldn’t be an issue?”, banish the thought and just think about what you’re gonna do later tonight or on the weekend.

      1. Anon4This*

        I have one of those, but I fear our constant gripping to each other just makes it worse.

    5. Southern Yankee*

      Is there a way you can reframe the situation to be entertaining rather than frustrating? Maybe use each teeth grinding moment to imagine how you would do things differently in your own company, or create a list of all the “bad boss/bad company” behaviors so you can avoid them in the future, or as source material for your future best-selling book, or create a mental perfect company, etc. Imagine a Simpsons episode satirizing your company? Say all the things mentally that you wish you could say out loud? Do a Walter Mitty on them!

      1. DataGirl*

        I do this a little bit, like whenever they do something stupid I’ll say, “That’s so [Company Name]! in a bright, sing-songy voice (mostly just in my head, but occasionally to a friend). And I also say ‘not my circus, not my monkeys’ a lot.

        1. Qosanchia*

          I did that a lot at my old job, which was food service, and therefore full of that kind of thing. It made it better that “So [company name]!” was a slogan/tagline they used.

    6. Kathenus*

      Realize that there are things that you cannot change, and that you have two choices right now, either accept them (doesn’t mean agree with them, but accept that they exist and you can’t change them) or continue to let them frustrate/aggravate/annoy you. If you choose the latter, you are the only one suffering from the situation, since presumably the company is fine with things as is. For the longer term you can obviously look to move on, or maybe you can find ways to affect change in the company. But if you truly cannot change them and at least right now are staying, try to accept them in the present and reduce their ability to upset you on a regular basis. Sucks, I know, but don’t let the negative situation be even worse by letting it make you unhappy every day while you’re working towards a more positive future.

      1. Southern Yankee*

        I heard this in the voice of sharp-witted dry humor coworker and it totally made me laugh!

    8. Canuck*

      I’ve been there big time. Learning how to protect your heart and soul while still putting out quality work is a careful balancing act but it is totally possible – and will likely make you a better employee, colleague and generally happier human. Here are my techniques:
      1. I think about what I can control and admit to what I cannot. I personally write it down – makes it feel more meaningful to me. For example, I can control what colour I choose for the teapot design, but I can’t control how it is presented for approval. It helps me remember that I shouldn’t be taking on the world’s problems.

      2. I start using some key language with my manager and my team that separates my role from the mess. At the end of a meeting, I’ll say something like: “Okay, I’m going to focus on X and Y this week, but will you let me know where you land with Z?” (Z being the piece of the project that is above my head or not in my department).

      3. I go for a walk when I find myself too wrapped up in something. I listen to music, clear my head and come back much calmer.

      4. I create tasks for myself that give me a sense of accomplishment to complete them. Sometimes the simplest items make my to-do list but it makes me feel happy to cross it off.

      5. I find something outside of work that I find fulfilling and lets my mind wander. For me, it’s working out and cooking. I find working out gives me that rush of endorphins that makes me feel better about any situation, and cooking lets me create something and find some happiness in that. I also get to work through stuff in my brain while I do both.

      Best of luck. Keep thinking about moving on though – even if you commit to doing one thing a week that pushes you in that direction, you may find it feels less and less of a mountain to climb. Start with a networking coffee, sprucing up your LinkedIn, etc. Start small (your resume probably feels too big for now) – but soon you’ll start having more and more space in your brain for job hunting and you’ll be okay!

      1. Lettuce Mutton Tomato*

        These are such great tips! I’m feeling the same as the OP and could use some new things to try as my previous coping mechanisms aren’t cutting it. I tend to feel responsible for everything so I especially like your first tip. Thank you!

      2. Anon4This*

        These are all really great tips, thank you. I do try to do fun things outside of work but often am so tired/overwhelmed that I get home and just crash. It’s frustrating.

    9. Spool of Lies*

      I have no advice, only commiseration because holy heck, are you me?

      I am also searching for a job but it’s really hard to stay motivated in this type of situation. I try my best to adopt the amused anthropologist outlook.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Lower your expectations? “Of course Company took away our health insurance. That is in keeping with everything else we have seen so far. This is why I am leaving.”

      Sometimes jobs stop being about the work and shift to being about the people working there. I found it helpful to challenge myself in my relationships with others. For example, I worked on explaining obvious things to otherwise knowledgeable people without letting them down in some manner. “So yes, Nancy, two apples plus two apples equals four apples. It’s very similar to your grapefruit example you have there. Let me show you this little diagram that helped me with this point. [etc, etc].”
      I looked for things that came up repeatedly and decided to grow my skills for the recurring hurdles. I do think it helped me with other jobs, as I learned to think faster on my feet. And I learned things that seem to help.

      I grew up in a family who collectively did not do a good job holding their tempers. I could see that temper never resolves much. So I used my irritation at my job to develop and collect a bunch of tools that I would be able to use in other settings.

    11. HermioneWeasley*

      I totally get this. In my very similar current situation I’ve struggled so hard to fix things, bring up positive solutions to problems and help contribute positively in any way I can. Unfortunately, none of it has worked out and has only resulted in me having a “troublemaker” type reputation (which is pretty laughable if you know me!)

      A few things have really helped me:
      – Do the minimum (this is so against my nature, and it sounds like yours too. But doing my job and ONLY my job has been essential to my survival)
      – Viewing everything with the curiosity of an Anthropologist (By this I mean that when my boss says something offensive or they make an insane sure-to-fail decision or anything else that could drive me nuts, I pretend like I’m an Anthropologist discovering some new culture. I’ll think “Hmm… what a strange decision! Wonder what drives that?” or “Oh wow. He’s clearly stroking his own ego again. Look at the strange species of presidentus blowhardus in his natural habitat!” It makes me laugh and helps me see things with curiosity instead of immediate frustration)
      – Refusing to take anything personally (none of this is about YOU. Even if people around you try to make it seem that way or you feel somehow responsible to fix the issues you see, just remind yourself that it’s not yours to stress over)
      – An end of day ritual (I have a google doc where I journal for a few minutes to get out the day’s frustrations and then a playlist that I listen to on my way to get my kids. This helps me separate my frustrating work life with my home life)
      – Making a plan to leave (I am, unfortunately, looking for other positions and I haven’t even been here a year. It’s not ideal (and it sounds like you would prefer to stay longer too) but my mental health isn’t worth anything that staying longer would provide. Yours isn’t either! Look around and see what’s out there, ask yourself questions about where you really want to go with your career. Use all of your energy to push forward instead of worrying about the current situation)

      Best of luck!!

      1. Anon4This*

        I love these suggestions. I also really look forward to my drive home, even when there’s traffic, because I listen to music and try to decompress. It doesn’t always work, but I try. I bought a journal for Christmas and haven’t even cracked it, lol. Maybe an online journal would be a better idea.

        1. HermioneWeasley*

          Another thing I forgot to mention! My therapist turned me on to this way of thinking and it’s really helped. The idea is that we all only have a certain amount of “forks” to give in a day (substitute forks with the word of your choice :)) Some days it’s 10, some days I only have 5, etc. We get to choose how we budget those out. So I know that I have to save some for my life outside of work, some for myself, etc. When I’m presented with a decision or an argument I try to remember to ask myself how many “forks” this is probably going to take and if it’s worth it. It’s helped me to be more aware of where my energy was going and to feel more intentional about the things I’m choosing to engage with.

  30. Teacher or Faculty?*

    I am a high school math teacher with just over 20 years experience getting ready to leave my 2nd school in 2 years due to a dysfunctional team, unsupportive admin and (am I getting to old for this?) student behavior and apathy.
    I have interviews lined up at another school to teach all (or mostly) upper level kids and for full-time faculty at the local community college.
    My question is this: can I call HR at the college to ask if they pay into my state’s teacher retirement before the interview? That would be a big factor in whether I would be interested in that job. Is there anything else that I should be thinking about to help make the decision about which job would be better?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      You may be able to find out directly from your state’s DOE/retirement plan. Depending on your state, that might be the case, or might not. You may be able to find it through the CC HR website if they’re transparent about that kind of stuff.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think that question is probably better asked during an interview than before you’ve even applied. That said, have you checked out the community college’s Glassdoor reviews? There’s a benefits section for each company/school, and people may have alreasdy explained how retirement works there.

      1. Teacher or Faculty?*

        I’ve checked Glassdoor for reviews, but I didn’t know they had a benefits section. I’ll look for that. Calling the state retirement number is a good idea, I’ll try that too.

        1. Prof*

          Or just poke around on the HR/benefits website for the college. Often they at least mention who their insurance/pension/other benefits providers are.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think you can call the state’s teacher retirement plan directly and ask.

      1. Rainy*

        This is what I would do.

        I’d also caution against mentioning it in an interview as the explicit reason for applying; we interviewed someone for an admin position in our higher ed department a few years ago and when they were asked “What made you apply to this job?” they said “I need a job that pays into [state educational pension plan], and this one does, so I applied”. This candidate had a lot of other problems, but starting out the interview with “I don’t care what you do here as long as you pay into my pension plan” really didn’t work for us.

        1. Teacher or Faculty?*

          Of course. If it doesn’t pay into retirement then it is almost a no go, but if it does then I can judge the jobs based on merit.

          1. Teacher or Faculty?*

            I guess I should say, both jobs have their pros and cons, but not paying into teacher retirement is a pretty big con

    4. A Teacher*

      Depending on the state you are in, they are different retirement systems. I’m in Illinois so TRS is teacher retirement and I adjunct at at CC at that is SURS. When I retire, I have to roll one pension into the other–it may be the same where you are at as well.

    5. Rock Prof*

      I teach at a state university with a spouse who is a high school teacher, and in all my positions and interviews I’ve never encountered a place where they both pay into the same retirement system. My experiences have only been in a few states in the midwest and the east coast, so maybe it’s more common then I think, but my first guess would be that it probably isn’t the same. It’s definitely worthwhile to ask about it though!

      1. just a random teacher*

        I am almost entirely sure that it is the same pension plan for both k-12 and college in my western state. One of the oft-cited-in-the-media issues with our state pension plan is the absurdly large pension a certain former college football coach gets. (My grandmother, who spent an entire career patiently teaching little kids in a rough neighborhood how to read and do basic math, gets a much smaller pension from the same fund.)

        In my state, I’m pretty sure there’s only one state pension program, period. There are different tiers depending on when you first entered the system (I will get an even worse pension than grandma, because I had the poor taste to be born later and am thus in a later tier), but all public jobs are in the same pension program.

        I second the person who suggested calling the pension folks and asking. They probably know offhand and it’s unlikely to get back to the people you’re interviewing with if you don’t even mention that you want to know because you’re applying for a job rather than general curiousity.

    6. Nesprin*

      Yep, call the college’s HR (or where I am, it’d be the district’s HR). In my area the high school district != the CC district and each has its own retirement program.

  31. Birch*

    So, what power do employees actually have to give feedback to/about bad managers? I keep seeing on here not to be honest in 360 reviews and exit interviews for fear of retribution, but if the higher-ups either don’t know about the issues or are unwilling to do anything about it, what power or responsibility do employees have to help their situation when it’s toxic but doesn’t rise to the level of report-this-now? Do we have a responsibility to new hires or potential hires? How do you even warn people without looking like a gossip? Do we all just try to get out ASAP? I feel complicit in the cycle by not doing anything.

    1. Alternative Person*

      I don’t think there’s a lot that can be done if the manager is invested in the status quo/things are functional enough. The best I’ve been able to do is pick what battles I double dog care about, keeping my gossip highly factual and professionally grounded, and being very carefully honest when I’m interviewing potential hires. I’ve also directed my co-workers to what resources I can (internal and external), name dropped other companies and stuff.

      Getting out is difficult in my area because the company had the sense at least to make the pay very competitive for the level of the work and the higher paying/better run places have high qualification/experience barriers to clear (I’m in the process of that).

      I don’t think you’re being complicit if your doing your best not to be dragged down to the level of the lowest common denominator at the workplace.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think there are rare exceptions, but generally when it’s that toxic, there is no real way to give meaningful feedback that will be taken seriously and that will result in no form of retaliation. Telling an abuser she’s an abuser doesn’t somehow make her say “Oh, I’m an abuser? I didn’t know. I’ll change.” You do not bear any responsibility. Get out.

      1. Birch*

        This is what I was afraid of. I just feel so bad for those with even less power than me–I’m barely hanging on a lot of time time as it is and I was so lucky to have amazing mentors when I was in their position. A bit of survivor’s guilt, I guess. And we keep getting new hires. I’m trying to be accurate without being dramatic about the bananacrackers expectations here and give hints where I can, but it’s this weird sense of, can we trust the newbies not to rat us out if we complain, vs. throwing the newbies to the wolf.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I think you can give truthful but carefully worded euphemistic answers, and candidates will generally get the gist. You don’t have to literally yell at them “Run away. Run away now!” Sometimes even a bit of hesitation when answering will give candidates the clues they need.

    3. ReadyToGo*

      Thanks for posting this, because I’ve been struggling with this as well. I’m on my way out of a company that knows my boss is ridiculous, but for reasons, won’t do anything about it. I’ve spoken to HR and grand boss multiple times and no meaningful change happened. It’s been hard for me to just write this company off as not a good fit for me and not want to speak up one last time about the way my boss has been negatively affecting the quality of work from my department. But sometimes you have to dive deep into Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys. It would be great if you could warn new / potential hires but you don’t have a responsibility to them. They have to decide for themselves whether they want to deal with the dysfunction once they have firsthand information about it.

    4. Kathenus*

      It’s really a difficult situation, and complex, in my opinion. And so much depends on the individual people and organization involved. But for me, in general, I err on the side of giving honest but professional feedback when I can. I can’t make the organization listen or act, but I can control my part of the situation, which is to try. I view it that it’s hard to get frustrated with a company that won’t take action if I’m not willing to try and be part of that solution by being honest when needed. It’s certainly a know your company thing because of course you don’t want to put your job in harm’s way, but in my opinion whenever you can try to be part of improving things by providing accurate feedback you should.

    5. Social*

      You have to be a superstar employee with lots of receipts to get your boss fired.

      I once got my terrible boss to retire, but it took a couple of years. First they moved me to report into someone else, then they promoted me to be at the same level as him, then I was promoted to be above him. Finally, he got put on a PIP. Halfway through he left.

    6. ChachkisGalore*

      I totally hear you on feeling complicit in the cycle. I do feel like I have some inner obligation to warn people before they step into a giant flaming pile.

      That said, I also try to remind myself, that nobody is looking out for me except me – particularly in those situations that you do want to report or warn people about. If there’s any sort of risk of blowback or negative consequences, then I try to mentally waive that obligation. I still want to try to help, but I’ll limit myself to “interview-esque” answers or wording. Basically how I would diplomatically explain this in an interview without actively trashing the company/boss. I find that framing eases some of my guilt – in that I’ve done or shared what is acceptable, but hopefully haven’t put myself at risk of blowback

    7. NW Mossy*

      I’m a manager, and my predecessor (a then-peer of mine) got fired. The team was very open with their grandboss (my boss) about the issues, which is not surprising given that she is excellent (there’s a reason I’ve worked for her in three different roles!) and makes it clear that she’s open to feedback.

      What they might not have realized, though, is that managers can and do talk to their bosses about issues they see with their peers. I know I told my boss about things I observed that lined up with what his team was seeing, and I know that other managers were doing the same. All of this together ultimately became the foundation for firing him.

      This obviously doesn’t work in every situation, but if there’s another manager in the organization that is both good at the job and respected by higher leadership, that’s a potential pathway to influence what’s happening at that level.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I totally get the idea of feeling complicit.

      In the end, all I could do was make sure my 1 square foot of company responsibility was run fair and square.

      I did learn that it was good practice to help the immediate bosses find persuasive points so they could get some changes made reality.

      It’s rough with watching the new hires. One thing to keep in mind is that no one told you when you started. Another thing to keep in mind if you feel the need to warn people this might be an assumption on your part that they won’t be able to make changes either OR that they may not even be able to handle the toxic place. I have told myself these things. As an employee, I desperately needed the new hire to work out and stay with us, so that became my goal to help the new hire last a while.

      I have seen new hires profoundly impact a workplace. An example: No one wants to do X because they don’t really know how, they mess it up etc. So everyone ends up arguing over whose turn it is to do X. New hire comes in and they are expert at X, they don’t mind doing it. They see that it upsets everyone and they agree to take a load off of people. You can feel the collective sigh of relief as this seemingly impossible problem now has a solution.

      I have stayed at two jobs for way too long. The thing I saw with each job is that over time everything changes and I do mean everything. If we stay one to three years we only see a snippet in the story line. It’s people who stay for longer who see how some problems go away and new ones emerge. I stayed at one job for over a decade (yeah, I know, drrr.). But when I left that job was hugely different than the job I started at, there were so many changes. Some of the worst things did get fixed (some fixes were forced fixes). Comparing my first day on the job to my last day on the job was day and night different. The new hires may or may not have the same problems you have or had.

  32. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    Hi, just wanted to ask a few general questions. I’ve only worked in 1 company for a few years so I don’t have a lot of experience in how things tend to be at different organizations.

    1. Generally speaking, when a company decides to advance someone, they start by giving them higher level work and eventually promoting them, which comes with a raise. It’s not raise –> work, is it?

    2. If you are denied a promotion due to attitude and performance, is it normal to go above that manager to their boss and HR and threaten to sue?

    1. Four lights*

      1. It may depend on the business. My experience has been you are promoted, and then have new responsibilities. However, my husband who is in software says that in that industry you are often promoted because you have already been doing the work for the new role.

      2. No.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      1) depends, but more or less yes (although I personally side eye orgs that don’t do annual salary reviews with at least CoL adjustments on principle)

      2) NO.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        My company does do annual raises. Every single staff member gets an increase, and those who get promoted get a bigger increase.

        An employee asked for a raise, and was denied. They then went to their manager’s boss and HR. When that was not successful, they went to the CEO. That employee has threatened to sue the company for discrimination. The “investigation” found that they did all their job duties, and the incidences of being disrespectful, unreliable attendance, and insubordinate didn’t count b/c they were never documented.

        1. Southern Yankee*

          So, just the one employee didn’t get any raise in the annual process and the company had no documentation as to why? If so, that’s a pretty bad process (both boss and HR). In many companies with annual raises, there would be an annual written performance review that should support in general terms of the raise (i.e. employee is rated satisfactory, excellent, etc., and that rating corresponds to some range of % increase). In the case of a poor performer with attendance and attitude issues, that would support the lack of raise.

          Of course, it’s also possible the boss is a jerk and made up the performance issues as CYA after the fact.

          1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

            The employee did receive their annual raise during the evaluation period. The performance review was “good” I believe (4 out of 5). The attendance issues started after that.
            Boss did not make up the attitude issues.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Do you mean the employee didn’t get the annual (non-merit based?) raise that everyone else got? Or that they got a promotion without the additional raise? Or that they asked for a promotion with the additional raise and didn’t get the promotion?

          If the employee didn’t get the annual raise after they did all their job duties and no documentation on poor attitude existed, then the employee made the right call in escalating, although the flip side is that person’s attitude and performance will probably be highly scrutinized from now on. The poor attitude absolutely should have been documented in the first place.

          If the employee didn’t get a promotion but they were not an exceptional employee (“did all their job duties” is the basic requirement for their current job, not a basis for promotion), the employee made the wrong call regardless of whether documentation existed about their poor attitude. Average employees don’t get to demand promotions under threat of a spurious lawsuit.

          1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

            The employee did get the annual raise that everyone else got.

            They asked for a promotion & raise a few months later and were denied due to performance and attendance issues. The employee had been advised many months prior that in order to advance they had to have a certain license. However, they did not obtain that license and the company takes a very firm stance on that.

            The boss talked to the employee about these issues but there was no paper trail at that time as far as I am aware.

    3. Kate*

      1. Yep! Occasionally if you’re switching departments to do something pretty different, it could be raise –> work. But if you’re in the same/similar department, it’s work –> raise.
      2. Nope!

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      1. Yes, I would say in my industry a person will start to be given more autonomy / higher level work, see how they do with it, which can – but doesn’t always – lead to an official promotion into a job which deals more with that higher level work. Usually the official promotion comes with a raise.
      2. No, that’s not normal unless there is a well documented history of something sue-able, such as discrimination based on a protected status (gender, age, religion, etc.) If an employee’s attitude and performance is poor, a reasonable employee should not expect a promotion until their performance issues have been consistently brought in line with expectations.

    5. Southern Yankee*

      1. Depends on industry, company and even job, and is subtly different in either case. You might have the title of teapot inspector, but the expectation of the level you will do that job would be different if you were completely inexperienced as a teapot inspector, had previously been a teacup inspector, or if you had several years of experience as a teapot inspector. If completely inexperienced person gets the teapot inspector job, they will probably get increasing levels of autonomy and responsibility without any raise or promotion, just a normal progression. If during some period of time you catch up to experienced teapot inspector in skills and also demonstrate potential with good judgement, leadership, etc., then that might lead to promotion + bigger than COL raise. So, maybe work -> promotion/raise -> Work (where “work” is normal progression and “Work” is a higher level set of responsibility and ownership with a promotion.
      2. No, definitely not normal. If you mean the employee’s attitude and performance as a reason for the denied promotion, going over the bosses head would probably be seen as proof of the attitude problem and an inability to accept feedback. If you mean the boss has a bad attitude and performance issues, then that is an entirely different conversation. Even in that case I wouldn’t make the conversation with boss or grand boss about the promotion issue specifically (it’s too self involved).

  33. Teapot Team Lead*

    Anyone here have experience working as a team lead where you manage the work of your fellow teapot makers and provide them feedback but do not have any disciplinary or HR responsibilities? Those responsibilities stay with the overall team manager. Any regrets on taking such a lead role after being a peer teapot maker for a couple years? The role does come with more money but job satisfaction is a bigger priority at this time.

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      It means your job is to essentially notify your boss of any problems, and fill in the gaps of any problems your boss or company has chosen to ignore. On the other hand, because you have no disciplinary/HR responsibilities, your boss is ultimately the one held accountable for failures in your department. The only exception would be unless there’s something dysfunctional up the chain of command, in which case you could find yourself a scapegoat for other’s failures.

    2. irene adler*

      Can be dicey if there’s push back from the team regarding your directions. Your manager MUST demonstrate that he supports your directions completely. If there’s any doubt regarding this support, then you’ll be in for a difficult time trying to get team to heed your directions. So get your signals straight betw. you and your manager.

    3. Free Meerkats*

      That’s the exact position I’m in right now, and may be until I retire in (checks phone) 1295 days.

      Program Manager retired in May and in previous management’s eyes, I was taking his position when he retired. New 2nd level manager, Director and Mayor; now his position is being left vacant for an indeterminate time. So I’m the technical lead (with 5% pay bump) with a manager taking up the stuff that involves HR. While I do look forward to no longer doing field work, I’m rolling with this. I have transferred most of the companies I regulate to the people I “manage” and can also get paid for as much overtime as I want to do the programmatic stuff that needs to be done. Things like reports to the state and federal folks who regulate us, work assignment, maintaining ordinances/policies/procedures, etc.

      I have a few regrets; the pay bump would be nice – though I can make that up with ~3 hours OT a week – which I’m not doing right now, the time to do the other programmatic things I’d like to do, but aren’t required, the slightly better benefit package management gets.

      All in all, I’m content.

    4. Kix*

      Yes. When I was a team lead, my team knew if they didn’t like my directives, they could go to the manager and complain and there was a good chance they’d get what they wanted. I left that job because he made it impossible for me to do my job, which was to lead and coach my team to success.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      This can work really well or very badly. I managed a team lead with the same responsibilities. Here’s why it worked in our situation.

      -She knew the day to day work much better than I did (I came into managing the team with no technical experience in what the team did -Ok if I’m honest I first learned of the team’s existence and their function when I was told I was taking over managing the team).
      -She was already the ‘organic’ leader in the team before she was given the lead title.
      -She had input into performance appraisals (we would talk about the team and she would provide examples and supporting information)
      -I backed up her decisions. So on the rare occasions that something did bubble up to me, I’d get the story from both sides and in all cases I agreed with the lead.
      -She kept me very much in the loop, so if there was something she wasn’t sure on then she and I would talk before she took it to the team.

      In this lead’s case the title was catching up to what she was already doing, and was a stepping stone to the next level that she’s in now (Supervisor w/HR and disciplinary responsibilities).

    6. Teapot Team Lead*

      Thanks for all the insight. In this case, the manager was a teapot maker maybe a decade ago. He certainly knows the ins and outs of teapot making. Just not all the current practices. Even though I have only been at the company for two years, I have the most experience on the team. I like making teapots and I’m not 100% sure about taking this opportunity. I need to think through if I think he will really have my back. You’ve given me much to consider.

  34. Communication issues*

    I have a co-worker who is under me in the .org chart though we share the same boss. He does not listen. I have tried emailing him and telling him on the phone and in person. This week I emailed him direction on something and in the two sentces it said verify a and do x. He did y instead. I will tell him exactly where to find information he needs (full file path) and he will wait for me to look it up for him myself. He also just do paperwork required for the job and waits me for even if I am busy on some other time sensitive issue. I have ‘a terrible boss who is never going to change.’ Any suggestions? This is a small company and the boss is the boss.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Does what he does directly affect what you need to do? If not then let him fail. Keep the docs you send him with the instructions in case it ever comes up but as you are not his boss you cannot hold him accountable.

      Unfortunately if his role feeds yours (such as teapot make and teapot painter) you can’t really do that. I would try talking with the boss again (I know you said terrible never going to change) but try to lay it out as a “Coworker isn’t doing X which delays me doing Y and the end result is that Customer doesn’t get their teapot on time. We’ve lost customers/refunded money/had order cancelled to the tune of $Z as a result.”

      And look for another job because your boss and coworker suck.

      1. Communication issues*

        I think your right I need to let him fail and little and the show tangibles. Sadly his role does feed mine and typically I get the aftermath phone calls.

        1. valentine*

          Don’t look stuff up for him. Tell him not to wait. If it helps, tell him not waiting will show initiative and ownership. If he just wants to ride your coattails, mamma mia. Redirect the calls: “Oh, my goodness! Zeke was on that. Please hold while I transfer you. *transfer; sotto voce* Mua ha ha ha ha”. Of course, he might say he knows nothing and you didn’t tell him anything. Let him fail and, when he does, forward whatever you have to boss with a note: “Waiting for xyz from Zeke”.

          And schedule more naps because he sounds exhausting!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Tell your boss that your subordinate needs to be replaced and you would like to be in charge of hiring the next person.
      Eh, your boss might go for it. Think about framing in in talking points that your boss relates to.
      Ex 1: Your boss places a high importance on having everyone LUUUUVE them. So you make sure you talk about how the coworker under minds the boss and if true, how the coworker talks negatively about the boss.
      Ex 2: Your boss only cares about financials. This one is easier, you just lay out how much money the company lost because of this employee each week.
      Ex 3: Your boss is all about time. He is always busy with too much to do. In this case, your chat would focus on how much this guy is not working and only adding to the workload.
      The overall idea is you want to show the boss how this bad employee impacts HIM, not you.

  35. I'm A Little Teapot*

    How do you define a specific career goal when it is a case of be careful what you ask for? (share your experiences!)

    My department is rolling out a new development plan/performance evaluation process. These are fine, they’re designed in such a way that it makes sense. For the development plan, we need to define a goal. Not just a “I want to work on this project” goal, but a “in 10 years, I want to be at x point in my career” type goal. Problem is, I really don’t know. I’m generally happy where I am, and am not interested in moving up the ranks. If there are 5 steps in my field, I’m at step 3, I’m good at step 3, and I really am not interested in what step 4 does. Plus, I would be deeply unhappy doing some of it.

    I’ve periodically had an itch to switch to a related field and have poked at the opportunity in the past, but not enough to seriously consider it. I’m currently building a really good relationship with the head of a department that has opportunities that I may in some point in the future be interested in, but not right now. But I really don’t know if I want to play those cards.

    Part of the issue is that my department head is serious about helping people meet their goals. If I say my goal is to switch to a related field, I will be given that opportunity, there will be conversations that happen between my boss and that department head, etc. This isn’t going to be kept silent. It will happen. And I’m not sure I want it to. So I’m really struggling with how to both give myself the opportunities I’m interested in, without backing myself into a corner of having to take those opportunities.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Maybe something like, “I’m really happy here in the Mango Growers group, and I enjoy my current role. Every once in a while, I have vague thoughts about checking out Papaya Growing best practices, so while I’m definitely not looking to jump ship, I just wanted to throw out there, if there’s ever short-term projects where I could work adjacent to the Papaya Growers team and get a little more of an inkling of what they do and how they do it, I’d love to expand my knowledge in that area on a low-stakes or temporary basis.”

    2. Susan Calvin*

      Does it make sense to set your goal as “improving collaboration with [other department]”, maybe develop a pitch for a shared project/initiative, or become sort of an ambassador? That gets you in contact the other field, and gives you contacts/exposure that are useful if you want to switch eventually, but still firmly keeps you where you are.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        My work is project based. I have the opportunity to work with literally any group/department in the company.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      So might be help to be more specific: I’m in internal audit. I literally can work on any audit, with any department, group, etc that we’re looking at.

      1. Southern Yankee*

        Speaking as formal internal auditor here. Not sure if you are from an accounting, IT or other background, accounting for me which shapes this answer. I found internal audit a great place to get a very good general understanding of a lot of areas of the company and identify areas of interest or areas to avoid. It can be an easy place to get stuck, though, if you don’t venture out of IA. Do you have a good read on how IA is perceived in your company? Do people stay in IA a long time/whole career, or does entire staff turn over every couple years, somewhere in the middle? Do coworkers in IA leave the group for other jobs but sometimes come back?

        I would just have a conversation with your boss along the lines of “I love my job and although I think I might also like x, I’m worried if I jump into that and don’t like it, I’ll be stuck. If that happens, is there any opportunity for me to come back to audit in the future? ” Also, does your company have any rotation programs or mgmt training programs that give you exposure to a few different areas over a 1 or 2 year time period? That might be an option that leaves it open to go back to audit. It’s also ok to want to stay in audit and tell your boss that. It could prompt a conversation about what that might look like a few years down the road – there may be possibilities there that you don’t know about.

        Above all, tell them what you really want, not what you think they want to hear. Good luck!

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          My whole company is massively transforming and growing, the department as well. We are valued, and highest levels of mgmt are actively setting the dept up for growth and to succeed. I came out of public accounting, have thus far been a career auditor. I like it, I’m happy here, I am still learning and growing. We’ve got some old timers, a bunch of new people, etc. They’re developing a rotation program. If we want training in something, if we can make a good argument for why it makes sense, it’ll likely be approved. The manager who was a loose cannon recently transferred out of the dept. Really. It is pretty good.

          1. Southern Yankee*

            If they are looking at a rotation program, that might be a good way to express interest in seeing what other options are out there without full-on committing to leaving audit. I’ve actually had a lot of success in my career (public accting, internal audit, production accting, special projects) by honestly saying that I don’t know. “I don’t know what I want to be doing in 5/10 years because I can see many possible paths. Mainly I want to keep developing new skills and always be challenged.” It’s ok to not have ambition to be the CFO or whatever, just express that thought in a positive way ( i.e. I love audit because xxx and I really think I can accomplish xxx in this job).

            If your department head is serious about helping you meet your goals, then you really are better off saying what you really want, even if the picture is fuzzy or you are not even sure what you want. These kind of development plans often make employees think there is right, politically correct, or obviously wrong answer. In my experience, it is usually just a structured way to get these conversations to happen. Think of it as a mentoring session and ask for their advice. And feel free to ignore the advice if it doesn’t work for you.

    4. Nessun*

      Could you speak to becoming a SME/guru on processes or programs, instead of moving up/over/out? We have several staff who are expected to stay in the roles they’re in, but they are expected to have goals and career progression within those roles. The expectation is that they will learn and grow where they are, by becoming experts on processes or learning in-depth about the programs they use, in order to mentor and guide others. That kind of framework would let you develop skills but makes it clear you’re not looking to move. And it’s always possible to reassess down the road.

  36. Lazy Cat*

    I apologise for how long this is! I’ve been waiting all week to post it.

    I work in a small government organization covering llama management. We have branches for llama reproduction, llama legislation, llama rug sales/creation.

    I work in the llama sales and creation division – there are 5 of us who have the same job. In (I assume) an effort to reorganize some so we don’t all independently report to the deputy director, two of us will become llama rug sales manager (managing store coverage, public sales, etc.) and llama rug creation manager (ensuring we have enough wool, that the correct colors have been ordered, that we are prioritizing certain patterns due to customer demand, etc.).

    Once the two individuals are promoted, one of them (again, I assume) will be a formal supervisor to the three non-managers – but each manager will have the ability to assign duties (sales and creation, respectively) to each of the staff members, including the other manager!

    In other words, we’ll have managers SM and CM, and non-managers X, Y, and Z. SM can assign duties to CM, X, Y, and Z. CM can assign duties to SM, X, Y, and Z. Somehow SM and CM have to balance how much time everyone puts towards sales vs. creation.

    All this is slightly theoretical, as the positions aren’t yet posted (it’s internal application only), so we still don’t know exactly what duties and power each roll will have – but my first reaction is that this is a recipe for chaos. What do you think?

    1. Birch*

      This is indeed a recipe for chaos. Believe it or not, I’ve experienced something very similar! The way I approached it was to create a shared spreadsheet that had a list of tasks paired with the “supervisor” for that task, and then the list of people assigned each task. So for you, Task A is supervised by SM, Task B is supervised by CM, etc. and then you make a record of which tasks X is working on, which tasks Y is working on, and which tasks Z is working on, and you can add a percentage of total, or hours spent, or whatever if multiple people are working on the same task, and then you’ll have to manage the teamwork. This way both SM and CM can see who has space for more duties and who is too busy. About the managers being able to assign duties to each other, we also have a similar situation, and it just requires a little respect and communication between them about how much time they have to devote on those tasks. The key is to update the spreadsheet and also to try to keep individual tasks reported to only one person, otherwise e.g. X has done 60% of Task A, Y has done 30%, and Z has done 10%, X and Y report to SM and Z reports to CM, and if SM forgets to communicate with CM, then CM thinks only 10% of Task A has been done at all. Saves a lot of time and energy to delegate with strict boundaries and lots of communication!

    2. Middle Manager*

      I agree. This sounds really chaotic. Hope there is some rethinking of the plan there.

    3. Lazy Cat*

      Thank you for the comments! Amusingly, the jobs were posted after I posted here. As far as I can tell, neither position has formal supervision of the three non-managers.

      Plus, I realized my true gripe is what an awkward spot this puts the five of us in, in terms of competing with each other. In a staff of only five, I wish our management could decide who best fits a role and offer them a position! If that person doesn’t want it, move on to person #2. (I could understand better if it was a staff of 100, where management would have a harder time gauging interest.)

      1. valentine*

        I hope you have standing to point out to someone that you need an actual chain of command or nothing will be done completely, properly, or on time, especially with the two managers assigning each other tasks! Why not have SM-X, CM-Y and wildcard Z or just slot Z under whichever task needs an extra body the most?

  37. horrified anon*

    (TW for rape/CSA ahead — nothing graphic, but upsetting stuff regardless IMO)
    Alison, you may remember the characters of this situation from a letter I sent you about how my super religious boss is best friends with all her clients. All I can say is, I wish that was my biggest problem now.

    My boss’ husband works for another company that they own together as a couple, the offices of which are on a different floor of the same building that my boss works in. He sometimes uses my computer to work on weekends. He left his personal email logged in and curiosity got the better of me. I know this is terrible, please don’t tear into me for it, but I occasionally read his emails — the first time was an accident, but I found correspondence in there that gives lots of details on my bosses’ attempts to violate labor law. The stuff I’ve learned seems like it could be useful for protecting me if they ever try to pull some shit on me, their most junior and underpaid employee.

    However, yesterday, I uncovered a gchat between my boss’ husband and my boss, in which the two of them discussed their son Jim and their daughter Morgan. Jim is 30ish, married with kids, and was just hired by my boss/his mom. Morgan is maybe 25, married to a guy who also works on my floor, but works with my boss’ husband/her dad on a different floor.

    From the context of their chats, I believe that Jim molested Morgan when they were young — the chats never explicitly say this, but they do say that the family has devoted extensive energy to covering something up from the kids’ childhoods, and that Morgan is feeling traumatized and angry that Jim now works for her mother in the same building as her. Apparently Morgan was threatening to take the thing public, whatever it is, and wants to hospitalize herself. Again, they never explicitly say what Jim did to Morgan, but even so their chats are pretty damning — the plausible deniability is minimal.

    I do not want to work for these people. I find this reprehensible and sickening, especially as a rape survivor myself. I feel terrible for Morgan and can’t look Jim in the eye. My question is: WHAT DO I DO???

    I was lucky to get this office job with my lack of professional experience and, though I’ve been doing well at this job, I’ve been here less than 6 months — hardly long enough to use the experience to get another good job. I absolutely need a job that provides health insurance due to several chronic, disruptive medical conditions that I have, so I’m limited in my ability to leave a job for reasons of principle. And of course I can’t say anything and risk ruining Morgan’s life more, can I? This doesn’t seem like it’s my whistle to blow, and given how dedicated her parents are to keeping this quiet, I worry about what would happen to her. But God…Jim has kids of his own now. The whole situation is totally vile and I don’t know what I can ethically do, especially since this is information that I learned by snooping.

    some potentially relevant details:
    -this is a family company, less than 50 people. the “HR Department” is exactly one guy who is the boss’ brother-in-law
    -they attempted to resolve this by having jim sign a contract promising that he’d never go to the offices on the floor where morgan works. this contract was drawn up by the “HR Department”
    -the people i work for are extremely religious. i share their religion but am a much less dedicated practitioner, and a handful of people in our office don’t practice at all. as with many extremely religious types in secular societies, they’re secretive and a little paranoid

    1. blink14*

      Do not get involved and start looking for a new job. Nothing good will come of this if you stay or if you say anything to the HR department, who is related to the owners and may feel the need to tell them that you’ve been snooping.

      Stop looking at people’s personal email accounts.

    2. Asenath*

      If they’re all adults – and it sounds like they are – they have to sort out their family and personal issues themselves. There’s nothing to “out” – everyone concerned is better informed of their history and their options now than you are – and if you don’t want to work there any more, quit, move on and take the loss financially and in medical care.

      And stop reading other people’s personal emails. That sort of thing is really unprofessional, and if you’re caught you’ll be out of a job even faster than you might want to be.

    3. Youth*

      I know you think you know, but you don’t actually know for sure. That’s the problem with seeing something not meant for you–you have no way of getting the context.

      It sounds like it would be better for you to stay, but you’ll have to continue to be professional with these people. If you can’t, it’s probably best to get out.

      1. HA*

        thank you for this — have been thinking this myself, and am hoping to keep thinking this firmly enough that i can hold it together to stay here, at least for a more respectable tenure than not-quite-six-months.

        for everyone else saying to stop reading other people’s emails, fair enough, and i know that what i did was Not Cool. for whatever it’s worth, the first couple months in a row that I found this guy’s email repeatedly logged into my computer, I immediately logged it out. I have reminded him a couple times to log out one’s email after finishing with it, pretty directly. again, I KNOW THAT I HAVE BEHAVED LIKE A SNOOPING ASSHOLE and i have no interest in doing so further.

    4. deesse877*

      You may have other evidence that you’re not mentioning, but from what’s written I can’t see that this necessarily is a sexual abuse situation. There are, to put it baldly, an infinite number of ways for a family member to hurt a child, and only some are illegal. Respectfully, you should consider the possibility that your mind is going there because of your own history, and maybe because you found out that the problem exists through unethical means. If you’re hugely troubled by a big secret crime, as you seem to be, you might be unreasonably inclined to assume it’s the same crime you experienced yourself.

      That said, they probably are awful people, and I at least don’t think your snooping is an unforgivable sin. A firing offense, yes, but not “bad person” stuff. Here are some thoughts, offered very tentatively and provisionally, about what to do:

      1) The daughter seems to be looking out for herself, not acquiescing to a cover-up; as you say, it’s not your whistle to blow, but she seems to be advocating for herself regardless.

      2) for myself, I’ve found a little peace in an analogous situation by giving time and money to organizations that fight abuse. If there are groups within your faith that oppose domestic abuse and sexual assault, that might be a possibility

      3) despite the “slow down” tenor of my remarks, I do want to confirm that you COULD be right. The world really is full of all kinds of intimate abuse, and it’s awful. I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this.

    5. HA*

      Thank you, folks, for the thoughtful replies here. I guess I let this get in my head a little — I’m in a part of PA where this religious sect is very common, and began feeling a little stifled and paranoid from what I thought I’d uncovered here. And who knows, maybe I’m right, but my energy is definitely better spent on looking for another job. For the time being, I’ve logged out of this guy’s email account again, and fully intend to mind my own business moving forward. I do still feel terrible for the daughter in this situation, but as AAM commenters are fond of saying, not my circus, not my monkeys. In any event, I hope that she’s okay.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Sadly, there are many people out there who have horrible, horrible lives. And they never mention it. Or they frame it as, “Others have it worse.” (Uh, no not really.)
        This is one situation that you happen to know something about. There are millions of others we don’t know. I like the idea of making a donation, perhaps you might eventually find some volunteer work that you would like to do. Allow your upset here to motivate you to do things in the future.
        I have causes that I support for reasons like you show here. The problem was brought into my life enough so I could see it but not far enough into my life so I could respond/help. I help strangers instead. It’s okay to let situations tug at your heart strings. And a good response is to commit to future actions of your own.

    6. Quandong*

      I would definitely start looking for other jobs and devote a lot of effort to getting out of this place.

      Don’t take any action at work apart from stopping yourself reading other people’s emails.

      I do think you may really benefit from talking with somebody about how this has affected you, especially given your own history. Please consider talking with a counsellor, or to somebody at a helpline for survivors. You deserve some support as you navigate your feelings while still working there.

    7. valentine*

      To protect Jim’s and other children, if you are willing to speak to print the emails and to speak to the police in person, get a free consultation with a criminal defense attorney. Ask if the emails might be useful, or even admissible as evidence. You’ll want immunity for the snooping, so the police don’t extort you in case you decide you want to stop at some point or not testify (It probably wouldn’t come to that?) or whatever. I don’t think the family would press charges or sue you civilly because you’d be taking the stand to air their ongoing abuse (forcing Morgan to accept her brother at work!) and whilst saying how you had to do bad thing to correct or avoid Bad Thing, WWJD, etc.)

      I say speak to the police because anonymous stuff can peter out quickly. The parents here could say the emails are fantasy role play and you won’t be able to say they give you weekly lectures on how that’s a sin or what have you. Also, in person, they can see how upset you are for Morgan and how worried you are for Jim’s kids.

      That said, doing something is better than doing nothing. So. Does your police force have an email form where you can report crimes? Maybe you can attach the emails. Morgan’s body, her rules, but you are allowed to consider the other children, even if that results in attention she may not want. The parents have sided with Jim, going so far as to help him infiltrate Morgan’s orbit, and whatever Jim did is so bad, Morgan doesn’t want him in the building and wants to institutionalize herself.

      You need to get out ASAP. Nevermind short stints. The family business wasn’t a good fit, you’ll tell interviewers. You would like to see bigger places (with proper HR!).

      1. valentine*

        Is this the same job/family where the husband molested the kids and you work with kids, but your boss says it’s fine because husband is on a different floor?

  38. Back on Meds*

    Pretty low stakes one here: I’ve recently resumed a medication that I’d gone off of for a while (thought I didn’t need it anymore, turns out I still do; life lesson: don’t unmedicate without at least consulting a pro) and I hope that by doing so, some of my mood-swingy behavior will calm down. My question is: should I mention this to my supervisor or my team? On the one hand I want to be like “OMG I’m so sorry for how I’ve been these past few months”, on the other hand… no one has actually said anything, really. Should I just let it go?

    2. Lupin Lady*

      If it’s really bothering you an option is to casually mention that you had a health thing recently sorted out, but I probably wouldn’t say anything. IF people noticed they more than likely chalked it up to personal stress, and now that it’s gone they’ll think the personal stressor is gone/dealt with

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Unless someone comments that you seem calmer/happier/less stressed/etc… I would leave it be.

    4. Back on Meds*

      Thanks folks! Y’all are the best. I probably won’t say anything – or just chalk it up to “health stressor that got sorted out”. I think I just needed to hear from other people that it was ok to just let it go.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I’d just say that you were feeling a little under the weather but you’re better now if anyone mentions it. No need to mention stress (through the word “stressor”) or imply there was a bigger problem.

  39. Alternative Person*

    So I went on holiday last week and prepped handover instructions and work for my clients at my main job. Apparently two of my (male) co-workers think they don’t have to follow instructions and can do whatever comes into their brains at that second.

    There’s no trouble with the clients or anything (this time) but in talking with my manager about it, I can for all intents and purposes litigate my temporary handover reports within an inch of their lives, and prep all I like but my manager won’t enforce them getting done or even give a ticking off to my co-workers for not doing them. I’m not surprised by the complete lack of respect from my co-workers but the failure to put in a token effort is BS.

    At least my holiday was really good.

    1. Asenath*

      Oh, that’s almost to be expected. I knew I wouldn’t be replaced when I took a long holiday – first real holiday in over a decade – but someone would cover anything that she thought couldn’t wait. So I spent time preparing an instruction manual for her. It took me a couple months when I got back to catch up (that was expected) and also to figure out at what stage certain documents were (since she hadn’t followed my processes, I didn’t know if they’d been completed, scanned/filed, sent off to their ultimate destination) and had to re-enter data from scratch since she did it her own way instead of putting it in the appropriate spreadsheet so I could use it to generate an end-of-year report.

      That’s just life.

      1. valentine*

        And I hope you’ll be saying something about it because they’ve all wasted your prep time and are costing you catch-up time.

  40. Tigger*

    Also, really random- I have been thinking about the crazy leap day birthday boss all day today. I hope her report took today off because its her “birthday”

    1. Skylight*

      I was thinking about that yesterday! So weird to deny her a birthday becase time doesn’t skip a day; it’s just labeled differently to correct for the astronmical year.

  41. fed employee hoping to move cross country*

    How likely is it that the Dept of Justice will negotiate grade? I’m currently at one grade in the judiciary and would like to apply for a similar sounding job in another city in the DOJ. However the DOJ job is a full grade below where I am now. Is it possible to negotiate grades, or just steps? I’m currently excepted service and the new job is competitive, which I understand to be less flexible.

    1. Not All*

      I’m not as familiar with DOJ, but other federal Departments you can sometimes negotiate where you come in when a position has been classified as a multi-grade (ie, a GS 9/11 you can negotiate coming in as an 11 if they initially offered it as the 9). Sometimes. Depending on HR/manager.

      BUT in order to change the grade of a position, they have to petition to have it recategorized to both upper-level management (depending on agency, this can sometimes mean as high as the Agency Director; others delegate it down to their regional/state directors.) It then has to go to the NOC for reclassification. I’ve never once seen the process take less than 6 months, and a couple years is more common unless someone has a lot of political capital and are willing to spend it this way.

    2. ADB_BWG*

      My experience at a different agency is that all job announcements have be cleared by HR and are based on the hiring office’s budget and staff levels. For example, if my agency posted a job for a GS-12, it would be because we were approved to hire a GS-12. Not an 11, and definitely not a 13. In some cases, where we would be open to several grades based on the qualified applicants, we would put out two announcements: one for the GS-11 and one for the GS-12. I’ve never experienced a situation in which we interviewed a candidate for GS-12, who told us s/he was a GS-13 and hoped this job could become a GS-13.

      Steps are more negotiable. If you were a GS-13 / step 2, you could be hired as GS-12 / step whatever-matches-salary

      You should also ask about the promotion potential for the job listing. If it’s posted as a GS-12, it may top out there – or it may be possible to get promoted within. In that case, you might be able to ask for a review after 6 months, because as a GS-13 now you will have had at least a year at the GS-12.

      1. fed employee hoping to move cross country*

        This is incredibly helpful, thank you. And exactly what I thought. I’m going to pass on the job. I’m gs-11 and the posted job is gs-9. The highest step for 9 is what I’m making now at 11-3. It’s weird that the posted job is only 9 because the duties are extremely similar to other positions with the same title but higher grade.

        2. Not All*

          Agencies grade REALLY differently. I mostly work with the land management agencies and I can tell you that anything related to visitor services with National Park Service will be a minimum of a couple grades lower than the exact same job would be with Bureau of Land Management or Forest Service. (I’m job hunting right now and don’t even bother to look at most NPS openings because I know they are ridiculously low-graded.)

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        Yes, I second this. When I was hired for my current position it ranged from a GS 5 to a GS 11. Someone who came in with me negotiated for a GS 9, Step 10, which was actually more than a GS 11, Step 1. And yes, if they’ve graded the position at a 13, you won’t be able to negotiate a 14, from what I know about various agencies. Your only option would be to negotiate using the higher steps of the lower grade. Good luck!

  42. Jimming*

    Has anyone transitioned from working from home to commuting? I have an interview for a position where the commute is 60 to 80 minutes long. Currently I work from home. I’m nervous about the transition since I do well working from home, but only looking at WFH jobs limits my options. I’ve commuted before but it’s been a few years! Any tips?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Is it a car commute or public transportation? I think that can make a huge difference. For me, the latter is extra time to gear up for the day, the former becomes part of the overall work day.

      1. Jimming*

        I’d have to buy a second car if I was going to drive regularly to this position since I share one with my husband (and the pay is comparable to what I make now so that’s a no go). I don’t mind public transit, it just increases the length of time.

    2. Antilles*

      Okay, so a few off the cuff thoughts and tips:
      1.) Don’t be in a hurry while commuting. Over a commute like that, the time you save for speeding or cutting people off in traffic or aggressive lane jumping or etc is a rounding error; definitely not worth the energy and hassle.
      2.) Podcasts, podcasts, podcasts. It’s a great way to make that time at least somewhat useful and entertaining.
      3.) Factor in the cost of gasoline and car maintenance into your budgeting. If you’re driving 60 to 80 minutes a day (is that one way?), that’s a lot more gasoline and car wear-and-tear compared to WFH. You likely can’t get most companies to pay for this, but when you’re comparing offers, that should certainly be on your mind with salaries.
      4.) You could ask about company plans on telecommuting. There’s a lot of jobs not specifically advertised as WFH which could allow for a happy medium where you work from the office a couple days a week, then telecommute the rest of the time.
      5.) Any flexibility on working hours? Some companies can give you a bit of flexibility on start times to dodge traffic. Or maybe working 4 10’s. Worth asking about during the interview, anyways.
      6.) Is the commute 60-80 minutes because of rush-hour traffic or that long because it’s just traveling from a rural area to a suburb? 60 minutes of stop and go traffic at 15 mph is a lot more mentally exhausting than 60 minutes of cruise control and chilling. The commute is what it is, but it’s worth noting.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        If you don’t want to be in a hurry, you have to allow time for your commute to be even longer, because you will be on the road with others who are in a hurry and you’ll have to cede to their aggression periodically to avoid conflict or accidents.

        1. Antilles*

          If you don’t want to be in a hurry, you have to allow time for your commute to be even longer
          It instinctively seems like that should be the case, but in reality, it doesn’t affect your commute much, if at all.
          1.) There have been a bunch of tests by Mythbusters, police departments, state DOTs, and others who have tested lane jumping and aggressive driving versus just picking a lane and sticking with it and found it usually saves a very trivial amount of time – like “2 minutes on an hour long commute” levels.
          2.) From personal experience, I can definitely tell you that I’ve personally seen the same thing. I commute through the (in)famous Atlanta traffic daily and regularly see someone jumping lanes constantly like a madman…only to end up just a few car lengths behind him a mile down the road after he picks a slow lane or traffic just stops dead or etc.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Sometimes if you leave just a few minutes earlier you beat most of the traffic. And if you’re in a hurry and driving aggressively it not only stresses you out but also increases your chance of causing an accident, so there’s that.

      2. Jimming*

        Yes I’m definitely going to ask about flexibility options in schedule if I get to that part in the interview stage. Thanks for the reminder!

        I should clarify – it’s 60 minutes by car in rush hour one way (maybe 40 when there’s no traffic). Public transit is 70-80 minutes one way because there’s a transfer involved. It’s on the far end of my commuting radius but even as I look for other jobs that are closer I’m going to have to change my daily routines, which is the part that makes me nervous. I love working from home but there’s no growth at my current company.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Is there anything specific about your routine that you think you would give up if you worked from the office? You may be able to adjust things during your commute. For instance, if you like to linger with a cup of tea and read the news, you can try to do that on public transportation, or you can switch from reading to listening. If you go to the gym in the middle of the day, you might still be able to do that. If you like to make your own lunch, you can adjust to preparing the night before.

          Every job change brings a change in routine in some way; it’s helpful to zero in on what concerns you the most.

    3. Cowgirlinhiding*

      That is a super long commute when you haven’t been commuting. You will hate it.

      If you still want the job, try to find a carpool or van pool where you can totally sit back and relax during that time or read/study.

        1. valentine*

          Unless you enjoy driving, much less during rush hour, you might want to ease your way back with a commute no more than 20 minutes, if poss. Transit time is just too long. Choose something you can manage on your worst day or to go home sick or injured. Is snow a factor?

          If the distance is mandatory, look into a schedule that allows you to avoid rush hour.

    4. Rainy days*

      My husband has a 75 min commute by public transit, and although he’s a child of the suburbs and was raised to expect long commutes, it does wear on him.

      He’s been able to survive it through:
      – Audiobooks: getting through books makes it feel like you’re really using the time to achieve something (as opposed to just
      – Shifting his schedule as much as possible: He leaves the house at 5:40am to beat traffic, which can drop it to 45 minutes.
      – Working out a gym near his office: Exercising right before or after a long bus ride puts him in a much better mood.
      – Enjoying his position and his coworkers. It would absolutely not be worth it if he didn’t love his job.

    5. ..Kat..*

      A two hour round trip commute is a big change! What will you cut out of your life to accommodate the loss of these two hours? Also, a car is a big expense. Plus gas, maintenance, parking, insurance, etc. And the expense of work appropriate clothes. Also keep in mind that working in an office means dealing with noise and other coworkers in a way that you currently do not have to.

      Are your only options work from home or have a long commute?

  43. XRae*

    Kind of a silly question but I would love to hear the thoughts of others,

    I am extremely fortunate to have obtained a great professional career, recently with a new amazing company. People in my role usually have a bachelors degree at the minimum, often times accompanied by other certifications. I am fortunate because I have none of these. I took a non-traditional education path and just started working for a small company out of high school and was able to move up into a professional role there gaining amazing experience and recently moved to new amazing company who was willing to overlook my current degree status based upon my experience. I started to go back to school about a year ago, taking one class at a time. My question is how do I present my education?

    Everyone always assumes I have a bachelors so they are kind of taken aback when I say I am working on my degree now. I’m going to community college until I get enough credits for an associates to transfer to a four year school. Is it lying to say I am still working on bachelors or do I need to say associates even though that is not my end goal?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I did associates, then bachelor degree. Lots of folks do.

      You: “I’m working on my degree.”
      Them, maybe: “Oh? What degree?”
      You: “End goal is a BS in underwater basket weaving!”
      Them, maybe: “Oh, cool. What school do you go to?”
      You: “Llama Community College right now, then transferring to Alpaca State.

      Easy peasy :)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      You should say you’re working on your bachelor’s degree since that’s the end goal.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      First of all, I don’t think you need to say anything about what kind of degree you’re working on. You can just say something like “Actually, I’m working on my degree right now!” Or, if you wanted to add more detail: “Right now I’m mostly taking required classes, but I’m thinking of majoring in Zoology.”

      If someone weirdly presses you about what kind of degree you’re working on, you could either say “I’m at community college now and plan to transfer to University X to finish my bachelor’s,” or just go ahead and say that you’re working on a bachelor’s degree (which you are; the fact that you’ll be transferring doesn’t change that).

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Right now, you can say you’re working on a bachelors since that’s your end goal. Once you get your associates, you can say you have an associates and are working your bachelors.

    5. Call of Dewey*

      I had a similar experience- just finished up my bachelors while working in a job that traditionally requires one and managing a team that all at least had a BA. I would say you’re working towards your bachelors, because you are- your associates degree is the first step towards it. But overall, just own that your experience has gotten you where you are. When you’re confident, people don’t question.

      1. Oh So Anon*

        Unless you work somewhere that’s fairly credentialist, in which case they’ll question regardless of your confidence.

    6. epi*

      I think the answer depends on whether you know where you will be going for the bachelor’s degree, and already have a relationship with that school. Being enrolled in an associate’s program doesn’t necessarily mean you will be going on– lots of people stop after the two year degree. This would be like me saying in undergrad that I was working on an MA, just because I knew I wanted that to be my next step. (And as it turned out, I never finished that MA– I ended up doing something totally different.) Generally people don’t put life goals on their resume, without having measurable progress towards whatever it is. That said, I know many community colleges have relationships with four year schools and you may already be working to facilitate your eventual transfer, or have a conditional acceptance to a bachelors program.

      If you haven’t been accepted yet and have no relationship with that four year school, just a plan to transfer when the time comes, then I don’t think you can honestly say that you are working on a bachelor’s degree. It could imply to people that you have been accepted or are already working on that degree, when it isn’t true. If that’s your situation, I would say something longer, like “I am working on an associate’s degree now, then plan to transfer to a four year school.”

      If you already have a bridge set up to a particular bachelor’s program, it is fine to say that it what you are working on. But you will probably still end up telling people some version of “working on associates at community college, than transferring to university” if they ask any questions at all. And you should put both degrees on your resume, LinkedIn, etc.

      1. n*

        You couldn’t say you’re working *on* Fancy College bachelor’s degree, but you *could* say you’re working *towards* Fancy College bachelor’s degree. The first way implies you’re admitted, the second just states that this is a goal your taking steps to achieve, which is true if you’re getting your associates.

        One word, big difference. :)

    7. Lisa*

      About calling yourself “extremely fortunate” – I also don’t have a degree and work in an industry where most people have at least a bachelors. I worked for many years in a huge corporation where probably 99% of the other non-exempt employees had degrees. From my experience and the experience of a few others who also had non-traditional education I learned that we were not “fortunate.” We were the exceptions to the expectation that you had to have a college diploma to succeed there. You could say we were exceptional. We didn’t need college to succeed because of other talents, abilities, and aptitudes. One woman made it to the C suite – she had started out as an admin assistant. A man who started out as a web developer is a Director now. I also have friends in my profession who have made it very VERY high up in other VERY large companies, without having finished college. I did pretty well as well, and when I moved on, I went to a startup that did not even ask about education. Now I consult and clients literally never ask about education. My point is, although it can be hard to get your foot in the door without college, once you have managed to do that, have built up a reputation, have expertise and experience… you’re a professional. You didn’t win a lottery, you worked your way to where you are.

      When people ask me where I went to college, I just answer, “I didn’t!” with confidence. And their reaction is usually to be impressed. No one thinks I caught some lucky break, no one things I cheated the system. They see it as an accomplishment – and I do too.

      I think that if you can be really proud of what you’ve done to get where you are, the way you did… that confidence will carry through when you talk about your current plans.

      As for a specific script, I’d go with something like…
      Person: Where did you get your degree?
      XRae: I didn’t! But I’m working on one.

      Person: Where did you go to college?
      XRae: I’m going to college now! I started my career after high school. But now I’m attending Local Community College.

      That’s going to be enough for most people and the ones who ask more about it are going to be asking because they are genuinely curious. If it’s someone who might be thinking “Hmm, I’d love to try to get XRae into my management training program once she has her degree” then you’d answer a little differently than if it’s an “I love talking about college! Let’s discuss your classes!” person but in either case, just treat it like a curious interest.

      And remember, you’re not lucky. You’re just good.

  44. Username1234*

    I was just accepted to an intensive MSW program and will be starting in the fall! I will continue to work full time, will be at a field placement 8-10 hours a week, doing online classes, and have one weekend a month of in-person classes. I’ll be able to flex my work schedule in order to still work 40 hours and do my field placement hours. This is a 3 year program with no breaks or time off. Does anyone have advice if they’ve gone through similar programs? Or just advice in general on how to manage a full time job and a graduate program? I don’t have any kids or other major commitments so my time is really my own, but I know this program is going to be intensive and stressful at times. My job knows about this and is some-what supportive, but overall can be a dysfunctional work environment. Would appreciate any advice or words of wisdom you may have!

    1. Washi*

      Following this! I plan to start social work school in the fall (full time) and am not sure how much I’ll be able to continue working at my job. (I definitely can’t flex my hours enough to continue working 40 hours/week, but I’m nervous even about committing to 20. )

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Congrats on your acceptance! I worked full time and did a graduate program at lightening speed-all at the same university so it felt like I was there all the time. My best piece of advice is to make sure you still take vacation and get away from it every once in a while. Take a mental health day from work if you need it every so often. Have hobbies and activities (even if it’s lowkey like Netflix or crafting) and take time for exercise and your health! I found that my crock pot was my best friend when I was in weeks of heavy work and school.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I spent four years working one full-time job, one ten hours a week job, and doing full-time school in two separate masters programs. Solidarity.

      1. Figure out what’s mandatory for you to be functional vs what can slip, get scrapped entirely, or be farmed out for someone else to do. (Sometimes throwing money at a problem is the easiest way to make it go away, if you can do.) My best friend, who was a full-time-plus-worker while working on her PhD, found that her go-to is to get her groceries delivered via Shipt or Instacart. I, on the other hand, actually find that grocery shopping is like meditation for me (I know, I’m weird) and if I don’t make time at least once a week to go out, walk around Target, and do my own grocery shopping, I get twitchy and stressed. But I pay my housemate’s mom to come deep clean my bathrooms twice a month. (She’s a professional housecleaner with her own business, it’s not quite as fly-by-night as it sounds.) Figure out what you need and plan for it. (If grocery delivery is your thing, Shipt membership is a great thing to either save for, or ask for on a gift-giving occasion, but they also often do coupons – bestie and I got in on their Black Friday sale, buy one membership for half price and get a second one for free. $25 each for free grocery delivery for a year? Yes please.)

      2. Find a calendaring system that works for you and be brutal about sticking to it. I have something like ten calendars on my iCal, which syncs between my computers, tablets and phone, several of them are shared to my housemates/spouse. If something isn’t on my calendar, it isn’t happening. (I accidentally forgot to put a theater event on my calendar and completely missed The Lion King. Super bummed, but it was my own fault. :/ ) If your preferred system doesn’t allow for separately viewable sub calendars, like if you prefer paper, cool — color-code stuff, so you know at a glance what’s school, what’s work, what’s personal.

      3. Classwork: At the beginning of the semester, put all your due dates YES ALL OF THEM I DON’T CARE IF THE WEEKLY QUIZ IS DUE EVERY FRIDAY SO I CAN REMEMBER QUIZ ON FRIDAYS all your due dates for everything on your calendar. Set reminders for the big ones. If you can do, schedule yourself a consistent evening or two per week. Tuesdays and Thursdays after work are for schoolwork. If you don’t have schoolwork, bonus free time! But nothing comes before schoolwork on Tuesdays and Thursdays between 6pm and 10pm except dire life or death emergency.

      4. Work: Does your job have remote options? That’ll go a loooooong way. This time around, both my regular job and my part time job were remote with flexible hours, so I didn’t have to worry about commuting. (When I was in undergrad, I worked one 40 hour job banker’s hours with a 1 hour commute and also 20-25 hours a week at my local Target on nights and weekends, plus a 4 hours a week volunteer gig with a teen youth group, while taking 20 credit-hours a term, so that’s still doable, but if work can be partially remote, it’s so much easier. :P ) If remote work isn’t an option at all, then double down on the calendaring.

      5. Personal: Do your best to schedule yourself at least a couple hours a week. Saturday morning is for getting up and taking a book that has nothing to do with school down to the local coffee shop and reading in peace and quiet while you drink a gihugimous latte and eat a muffin the size of your face. Or Wednesday evening is when you take yourself out to happy hour at the little bar down the street and play trivia. Whatever. Something that is fun, that you enjoy, and that has no connection to work or school. But this goes on the calendar, just like everything else does, and doesn’t get skipped barring dire emergency.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I think I give it every time someone asks this, I should probably copy and paste it somewhere so I don’t have to retype it every time! :)

    4. Counselasaurus*

      Following!!

      I’m getting ready to start an MSC program part time next year while working full time. I’m terrified of how I’ll juggle everything and if I need to cut back hours at work, whether we’d manage that financially. And I’m a parent to a 5 year old. Would love any and all insight.

    5. A Teacher*

      I did this for my Masters in Teaching–switching fields. Worked full time, took a night class/online hybrid with a cohort, and did field time/observation/student teaching around my work hours.

      Stay on top of everything and figure out a system for tracking when you’re supposed to be somwhere and where that somewhere is. I live and die by my planner–google calender is fine but writing it out is much more tangible to me.

      Don’t procrastinate with deadlines that’s really detrimental in a non-traditional grad program (did the traditional thing with thesis for the first masters).

      Enjoy the experience–this is probably the most important one.

    6. Social Workers, Unite!*

      I’m an LICSW for a mental health clinic. My intern is graduating in 3 weeks and kept a very similar schedule. Talk to your supervisor about your time commitments and see if there’s flexibility for internship, too. I worked closely with my intern to make sure that she got her hours without losing her mind! Good luck!

    7. EmployeeAndStudent*

      I’m currently combining a full-time job with part-time university. A couple of tips from me:
      – Talk to your boss and find out what kind of flexibility you can get at work. Working from home can be really helpful because you cut out your commuting time and can switch between work work and school work faster.
      – Talk to your teachers and find out what kind of flexibility you can get at school. I’ve asked for a couple of alternative assignments to group assignments. I’ve asked to take exams on different dates (I prefer to take my exam on a Monday or Tuesday so that I don’t have to take too much time off to study for it).
      – Keep on top of your coursework. You don’t have the flexibility of a full-time student to cram close to exams/tests.
      – Stick to a schedule. I find it easiest to plan my schoolwork on either Saturday or Sunday, so that I have the other day to do fun stuff.
      – Find a way to relax, otherwise you’ll burn out.
      – Outsource things you hate to do and that would take you a long time. I have a cleaner come every other week and get meal boxes (like Hello Fresh) delivered. That way I don’t have to put as much mental and physical work into cleaning and meals.

  45. Labradoodle Daddy*

    MY AWFUL CONTRACTING COMPANY LOST THE CONTRACT WITH THE HEDGE FUND!!!! AND TODAY IS MY LAST DAY!

    HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I’m very OK. This company is incompetent, treats its employees like dirt, and this loss is *well deserved.*

                1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                  Haha apologies! I’ve been discussing my awful company on the open threads for a while now and completely forgot that context is, yknow, helpful :P

                  I’m a bit giddy, don’t mind me….

              2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                No worries! My memory latches on to details and I’ve been in online communities so long I’m used to keeping track of regular posters :)

          2. Labradoodle Daddy*

            I put in my notice a month ago because I was sick of their incompetence. So I’m fine! HAAA!

            1. Labradoodle Daddy*

              My coworkers who are left over have to reapply for their jobs with the new company. There are two team members who should be shaking in their boots right now (incompetent manager kept on incompetent employees despite us repeatedly telling her she was incompetent and did not improve after her “talks”)

  46. Midge*

    When do you tell your immediate supervisor that you are going to need to take medical leave?

    My situation: I need to have a procedure done this year for a non-life-threatening medical condition that needs to be taken care of before it starts having a larger negative impact on my health. There are a few possibilities for procedures, and the anticipated amount of time I will need to be out of work is probably between 2 and 8 weeks, depending on the procedure we settle on and my recovery. I am covered by FMLA, and will have no trouble from my employer. They are great, and incredibly flexible and supportive with this kind of thing. And it’s more than humbling to admit that my absence, while an annoyance, will not throw a major wrench in anything. Actually, given anticipated projects for later this year, if it had to happen any time this is fairly decent timing.

    I am hoping to schedule the procedure for about 3 months from now. I have an appointment with a specialist next week, and might pursue second opinions which would involve further medical appointments and more time off work to travel to them in the next few weeks.

    I work in a pretty closely knit place, with a small and close team. My instinct is to just tell my supervisor and immediate co-workers what is up, in part because it feels weird not to share that this thing is happening in my life, and in part because I don’t want them to worry about what’s up with all my medical appointments. I have a feeling that the generic advice would be that because this is probably still months away, wait until I have a solid plan in place and a better estimate of how much leave I will need to take, and then tell my supervisor and HR. Do I go with my gut and impatience, or do I just freaking hold my horses and wait?

    There is a pretty low risk that symptoms will cause me to miss work before the procedure. So I don’t feel a need to tell my supervisor that I may not be 100% on some days. The whole point in doing this this year is to avoid the situation in which I am in too much pain or discomfort to function. So I don’t need any special accommodations right now.

    1. blink14*

      I would let your supervisor know in general terms that you are looking into treatment for a non-life threatening medical situation, in hopes that it will make your life better, and you have these doctor appointments coming up. It sounds like the main option is for you to have a procedure done at some point this year, and you’ll let them know once it’s scheduled.

      I had a major surgery less than 6 months after I started my current job, and I knew when I took the job that surgery was most likely going to happen. I was upfront with my manager from the start about the situation and that I would likely need surgery.

      My actual surgery date was scheduled with less than a week’s notice, and I was out of work for about 5 weeks. Again, because I had kept my manager in the loop (and you can do this in a less detailed manner), we kind of knew it was coming and I knew what I needed to send to HR and what the medical leave requirements were (fortunately covered completely by sick time). Knowing that my boss was already aware relieved some of the surgery prep stress and I could focus on that versus trying to bring my manager up to speed and the information hadn’t come totally out of the blue as she had known some details prior.

      Good luck with everything and I hope it all turns out for the best!

    2. Asenath*

      I told my supervisors when I had a date confirmed for the surgery, which was probably a couple of weeks out.

      Unofficially, I did share the diagnosis a bit earlier than that – there was the sudden upsurge in medical appointments which showed something was up, although everyone was too polite to ask! I wouldn’t always recommend that, but in my case it worked well because people were understanding and if they gossiped outside our small group, the gossip never got back to my ears.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      If you are comfortable with your boss knowing, just have a talk and bring it up. Something like:
      “I have to have a procedure done that will put me out of the office for somewhere between 2-8 weeks depending on the final decision by my medical team. Its a preventative, but necessary procedure so I don’t have issues later on down the road. I’m looping you in because I do have some flexibility with timing so wanted to see what would be the best time for me to be away.”

      You don’t have to say anything but if you would feel better having it be a known thing with your boss then go ahead.

    4. Not So Little My*

      I’m in a similar situation, although I’m contract-to-perm. Contracting Company loves me, and Company I’m Working At likes my work a lot and wants me to continue, but there’s uncertainty about when headcount will come available to move me into, so my start date at Company I’m Working At is uncertain and may still be a few months off. I’ve been trying various treatments to keep me in reasonable health so I can put off the surgery until I’m converted to permanent (it has about 4-12 weeks recovery time). I wouldn’t be eligible for FMLA until I’d been at Company for a year, but at least I would have sick time and vacation time I could use, which I don’t have as an hourly contractor. I did talk to Company Boss about the vague possibility that I might need to “take more than 2 weeks off” for “a medical thing” at “some unknown date this year” and he said that would be fine and they could work with my workload. I also talked with Contracting Company Boss and he said they would support moving my workload around so I could have the time but also come back part-time/WFH as I healed up and then back to full time. I told them both I would let them know more as time went on and would keep them in the loop. I just wanted to know if I would still be safe if I had to do this before my perm conversion date. It’s still frustrating to not be as secure as I wish I would be in this situation. Folks can tell I’ve got something going on because my walk is visibly affected and I have adaptations on my desk, and while they are supportive, they do not ask invasive questions or fuss over me, thank goodness.

    5. Midge*

      Thanks for the feedback!

      Thinking about it some more, I do think that I am likely to share with my boss by the end of next week when we have our regular check-in, assuming my specialist appointment doesn’t contain any big surprises or get rescheduled because of yet more weather we are supposed to get hit with. It was good to write it all out and read some opinions. Helped me solidify how I feel about this, and what I think is important to communicate now.

  47. Lebanese Blonde*

    I really like my job, but really HATE working from home. Do I still have to plan to stay a year?

    It’s my first full-time salaried job, and it’s the first company that has given me a “Llama groomer” role, as opposed to “Llama Fellow” or “Contracted Groomer”, and the title alone is a huge leap forward in my career. (I finally escaped the endless internship loop!) I like my work fine (would like to be focused more on Donkey Grooming, but aside from the specific topic, the role is a great fit), and have a great boss who’s endlessly grateful I am good at my job because the previous Llama Groomers have been terrible. I have 25 (!) days off per year, can occasionally work from other states/countries when visiting family, and my day-to-day schedule is really flexible.

    …but I truly cannot stand working from home. I have an impossible time getting up in the morning, and I end up taking 2 hours off midday almost every day to just clean my apartment or read a book or work out. I’m incredibly distracted, feel no accountability, and end up working til midnight to turn everything in. I feel simultaneously like I’m never working, and like I always am. I don’t think it’s as much of a problem for other employees, but I’m really extroverted and do my best work collaboratively. My boss and coworkers have told me I’m doing a good job, and I don’t know how to say “I could be doing SO much better if I were in an office and/or were working at 100% capacity rather than like….30%.” I really love my career and want to be working at my absolute best, so I feel really demotivated because my lack of effort seems like enough. It’s really doing a number on my self-esteem, and I feel like I’m wasting a lot of time.

    So, any advice? My current plan is to start casually applying in like…April (I started in October), and actively apply end of summer, in order to move on after about a year. Is it insane for me to leave such a good position just because I have no self-discipline? Should I try to stick it out for longer? Leave sooner?

    Some logistical notes: The whole company works from home every day, aside from a few staffers in an office abroad, so my situation isn’t going to change . I do have access to a workspace (not WeWork, but analogous), and I go 2-3 times a week. I’m slightly more productive when out of my house, but not by much. The main issue is I feel no accountability when I’m not working with or adjacent to coworkers.

    1. Lebanese Blonde*

      Oh and another crucial point — the vast majority of the coworkers I email and Gchat with on a daily basis are in a timezone 5 hours ahead of mine. So in the afternoons in particular, I am completely alone (both physically and virtually). My boss is based in my timezone, but she only works a few days a week.

    2. Mediamaven*

      As an employer, I would find it refreshing to hear that you didn’t love the working from home aspect. I think you should go ahead and look and just share that you prefer a collaborative environment with coworkers.

    3. PB*

      Instead of job hunting, maybe look into a collaborative workspace? That way, you can work remotely, but still be out of your house and around other people.

      Staying in a job less than two years runs the risk of job-hopping. Like Alison says, one short stay isn’t a deal breaker. You want to avoid a pattern of it. However, you note that this is your first “Llama Groomer” job, versus a fellowship or internship. This is a huge step forward! Add to that, you like the work, you’re getting good feedback, and have great benefits. I’d be wary of job searching after only six months in this role, just because working from home isn’t ideal, especially since you note that your productivity is only slightly better when not working from home.

      Some questions to ask yourself: Would a comparable role also be work from home? How will you answer interviewers when they ask why you’re job searching after such a short stay? If you change jobs, would you be able to find a comparable position, or would you more likely have to go back to a “Llama Fellow”-type role?

      Ultimately, you’ll have to make your own decisions, and you know what’s best for you and your own career, but I’d think carefully before jumping back into job hunting. I can tell you that, as a hiring manager, I’d be wary of interviewing someone who’d been in a full time permanent position for only six months. Instead, it might be better to look into ways to boost productivity, such as a co-working space, setting up a dedicated home office away from distractions, inviting over other work-from-home friends to work together and enforce accountability, set timers for more productive “sprints,” etc.

      1. Lebanese Blonde*

        I definitely would not move to a Fellow role. I’m planning a long job search precisely because I want to be in a position where I’m making a lateral move to a similar company, though ideally something more on a topic that interests me (Donkey rather than Llama Grooming), and at an office. I live in a huge city that is one of the country’s centers for the work that I do, so I know that the right role is out there! It’s just that I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot by moving too soon.

        It’s also worth noting that my industry is pretty notorious for short stints at different companies — people move and are poached constantly, it’s just a matter of getting into the Groomer role at one of them.

    4. Jimming*

      It sounds like it’s a bad culture fit for you. Personally I love WFH and I’m more productive but it sounds like you hate it and that is what matters. Dust off your resume and start searching for local jobs. If your employment is at-will then there’s no minimum time you are obligated to stay.

    5. Youth*

      I’m an introvert’s introvert, but I, too, really struggle when working from home. This would be a no-go for me, and I think if it’s really affecting you that much, it’s definitely worth moving forward. There’s no guarantee you’ll get out when you’re hoping, anyway. You could end up being there longer than you think.

      The perks do sound pretty sweet, though!

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oh lord, this was me too. Folks are always so taken aback when I tell them that I hated working from home.

      I’d go ahead and look for other jobs, with two caveats:

      1) Take your time to understand what you’re really looking for, and whether the places you apply or interview are a good fit. You’re going to need to stay at your next job at least two years — you’ll have used up your flexibility by “hopping” out of this job so quickly. So spend some time thinking about what you need to be happy and successful, and don’t talk yourself into something that isn’t a great fit because you want to escape your current situation.

      2) Be upfront and calm when talking about why you’re leaving this job so quickly. “I enjoy the work, but to be perfectly honest I’ve discovered that I’m just not built for working at home. I’m much more effective — and happier! — when I can work collectively with a team in the office.”

      1. Lebanese Blonde*

        This is great advice. It’s essentially what I was planning to do, but it’s good to have a second opinion. My plan is to take my time and really only apply to places and roles that would be a perfect fit (I’m lucky that there are a lot of companies in my industry that I would be interested in Grooming for), and hope that it works out that I leave after around 10-14 months in this job. I’m working on some side projects now that will help me get those jobs, as well.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          BTW, this: “I feel simultaneously like I’m never working, and like I always am.” is EXACTLY how I felt.

      2. catwoman2965*

        Me too! While my job IS office-based, i could if I chose, work from home one day a week. I don’t though since I really hate to. I live in an apt, so no dedicated office space. My laptop on my DR table is my “office”. Not comfortable at all. Plus, some of our applications when I log onto our network are small, really tiny, and I am blind as a bat. So I can’t enlarge them, and its difficult to see. And since I don’t work from home all the time, nor am required to, its not anything I could or want to request any kind of accomodation or equipment for.

        I also get distracted easily. Oh let me go unload the dishwasher, oh, let me go straighten up that mess, and so on.

        I am happy though, my company is flexible so like today when we got some snow, and my complex hadn’t been plowed when I left, i can come back in, log on, work a bit, and then come in, or if its really bad, stay home all day and work. But i’m definitely much more productive IN the office than at home.

    7. KR*

      Honestly I work 100% remote. I am in a satellite office with two other co-workers who are not my manager and who I have no accountability towards. Everything takes place via email, chat, or phone. I am nearly completely alone in the afternoon as I am the farthest west time zone on my team. It took me a long time between tracking when I begin working every day to challenging myself to put my phone down and work uninterrupted for a certain amount of time and I still don’t feel as effective as I would be if I didn’t work remote but I am told I am doing a great job. Is it possible you’re feeling some imposter syndrome?

      1. Lebanese Blonde*

        Imposter syndrome is definitely possible/accurate in most situations for me, though it’s possibly just the opposite. I actually think I’m better than my current performance…! It’s just that I’m measuring myself against my output in other fellowships/contract roles, where I was told that I worked at a Llama Groomer level despite being young for the role.

  48. ContemporaryIssued*

    Massive company-wide changes coming in the coming months. Whole company structure is modified to an extent, people in satellite offices shuffled, basically everything is more or less changing, except we’re keeping the logo.

    My job is largely just having a grasp on our current structure. I am in contact with the different offices every day, I pitch in on the phones, I connect employee A to employee B when A doesn’t know who can help and I know B can help, I assist offices with invoice troubleshooting and I sort some internal snail mail. Basically 70% of what I do has to do with the current company structure and knowing it inside and out.

    So how do I find out what changes are happening at every level, every office and how it impacts my job? Should I just go to my boss and ask her to find out what is happening with different departments and bring that info to me? Or would it be okay to ask person from, say On-call Oatmeal Department, who I’m friendly with to ask how changes in their department is going to affect my task to do with On-Call Oatmeal? Should all these people be coming to me for a heads up if a task of mine changes or vanishes due to company restructuring?

    I have never been through this so no idea how these things usually work (mind you, given how odd this company is, what usually happens may not happen here!). Any advice or experiences would be appreciated.

    1. londonedit*

      I think it would definitely be sensible to start by asking your boss. She might not have all the answers, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable for you to ask her how all these changes are going to impact your day-to-day work, and to ask to be kept up-to-date on everything that’s happening so that you can start familiarising yourself with the new structures.

    2. Minocho*

      I agree with londonedit that going to your boss is a great first step, but also do your best to tackle this as an opportunity rather than something to be feared. You might be able to redefine or modify your current role to fit the new organization or your own personal idea of your dream job better.

      We’re going through a more minor restructuring here, and my immediate supervisors are trying to push changes they’ve thought would improve our processes for years. We may or may not be successful, but it’s the perfect time to try.

      good luck!

  49. Nervous Accountant*

    I interviewed someone today for a remote position, so that was neat!

    My coworkers were talking about letting a contractor go. I listened in on t eh debate. One said that he should be able to let him go without any hassle, since htey’r e a contractor and not legally bound. The other one said it’s still a decent thing to do to coach them, just as if they were any employee. I thought it was an interesting debate.

    1. boredatwork*

      If you start couching them like an employee – then they can be re-classed as an employee.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        You can can give them feedback though, that’s not a contractor/employee thing. I wouldn’t offer them DEVELOPMENT like an employee. But coaching – meaning feedback on their work – should be fine.

        1. boredatwork*

          (my experienc, fellow accountant, current hirer of a contractor) is that typically “coaching” means development and strengthening skills, ect.

          Not feedback like “Jim, I need the lines to be straight on the teapots, also we prefer a redder shade of red.” I wouldn’t put a contractor on a PIP like I would an employee.

          1. fposte*

            I think boredatwork gives a good example. Is this the kind of information you’d provide to somebody working on your kitchen? Then it’s likely fine. Are you guiding their career trajectory? Probably not fine.

          2. boredatwork*

            I know you really wanted to go to the IRS website today…

            https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/behavioral-control

            Development and coaching would be positive evidence towards being an employee, while feedback, I think is more “measuring the end result”. I’m not telling Jim how to get the lines straighter or make the color redder.

            If I gave Jim detailed coaching and training on how to precisely tint the color or paint the lines straighter, that points towards being an employee.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              Interesting, I knew the other rules but didn’t really think about the behavioral aspect of it.

              In any case, ours is more feedback like, “Don’t say this/that to the client”

              They are remote workers and are expected to have their own supplies etc set up.

              I personally think it’s just courtesy (and kindness?) to give feedback rather than cut them loose without warning. Even though they’re contractors, it’s still a stream of income for them. Personally I am just not in the favor of firing w/o notice (to an extent of course).. The one who wanted to let him go also never really spoke to him beyond a few conversations here and there.

          3. boredatwork*

            There are very specific examples on the IRS website (that post is in limbo, links are scary).

            My contractor reviews returns, and honestly we all HATE how he reviews, the random crap he adds to workpapers, and generally how he writes review comments. But the return is reviewed, we don’t give feedback on how the sausage is made, only if it’s not made correctly.

  50. Overeducated*

    Has anyone here done a temporary placement (details, secondments, or whatever name you use)? I’m being sent on one soon for a job that’s at a higher level than my current one, and I’m very excited about the professional development opportunity, but also very nervous about jumping into a bunch of projects in the middle and how much I can learn and accomplish over the course of just a few months. My supervisor will be the great-grandboss from my previous job, so I haven’t worked for him directly, but know he has high standards, a blunt style, and no patience for fools. Any advice on being successful in a short term and challenging position?

    1. nym*

      I’ve done a few of these.
      1. Don’t be afraid or apologetic to ask questions. They will expect you to pick things up quickly, but they know you’re jumping in new and will be very open to extra explanations.
      2. Develop your networks, and ask everyone those questions. If you have a question you think you should ask Amy, but you see Sue in the breakroom and your boss isn’t around, ask Sue if Amy is the right person to answer for you, or maybe even Sue knows the answer.
      3. Recognize that you will miss some nuance or do things the hard way, because you don’t know all the context and are learning. Every day is a fresh new day! A positive attitude about “I wonder what I will learn today” goes a long way in dealing with a blunt style and lack of patience for fools. You’re not the fool but it will sometimes seem that way.
      4. Frequent check ins – like, daily for the first week or two, and then taper off – will be important to getting up to speed. Sometimes these would happen naturally as you spend half the day in meetings with your supervisor anyway, and sometimes you will need to schedule a dedicated 15 min. Sometimes these will be with someone besides your direct supervisor, if he hands you off to someone else to get up to speed on a project.

  51. Washi*

    For those who work at a nonprofit in a function that also exists in the for-profit world (HR, accounting, etc) why did you choose to work at a nonprofit?

    Sub-questions: Is the mission important to you? Is the pay not as different as I’m imagining? Would you switch to the for-profit sector if given the chance? Are nonprofit jobs not considered as desirable in your field and therefore less competitive?

    I’m asking mainly out of curiosity, since my job (social services/case manager) doesn’t exist really at for-profits, but for other roles, I’ve always wondered what motivates people to take a job in the nonprofit world.

    1. boredatwork*

      There is a separate type of accounting that non-profits do for both financial accounting and tax accounting. Once you start working as a non-profit accountant you’re basically specialized to only work on that type of work. You can do it internally (at a non-profit) or externally (public accounting, usually).

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve wondered the same thing!

      I also work on the program side of nonprofits and have wondered why, like, IT folks choose to work here rather than getting paid more (I assume) at a company.

      I work at a nonprofit because that’s where the kind of work I want to do gets done.

      1. Michaela*

        I can answer this, at least for me! Software development in “industry” was a pretty awful experience for me — no work/life balance, little to no ethical consideration of the implications of what we were building, very bro-y. As someone who’s not that motivated by money and pretty skeptical about capitalism, I’m willing to take the 30-40K annual pay cut for the ability to feel good about my employer’s existence. I’m still making a perfectly satisfactory wage, but it’s a lot less than I would be.

        Also it’s a lot harder to get fired here than in industry, which will chew you up and spit you out because there’s about a million people who want your job. As someone with chronic illness, I feel safer in a space where my managers know they are going to have a hard time replacing an employee, even one who needs accommodations to do her best.

      2. De Minimis*

        It depends on the location of course, but the IT guy at the small nonprofit where I used to work still got paid six figures [albeit the low six figures, which would be considered a lower wage for a tech job in that location.] Of course, he was the only IT person so he earned it.

        As far as the accounting, it really depends. We used the regular full accrual basis and there were only a couple of wrinkles here and there, and most of those were due to the idiosyncrasies of the CFO and not related to it being a nonprofit . It probably wasn’t significantly different than accounting for a small business.

        I think most financial people who go into nonprofits have at least some level of commitment to the organization’s mission. I’ve done a little recruiting and the jobs were pretty competitive to get into. I think too that a lot of people have a vision of the nonprofit world that may not necessarily reflect reality [my last nonprofit job was very fast paced and I was honestly overworked.]

      3. AcademiaNut*

        I work in academia, and it’s tricky to get good IT people because we pay a lot less than industry can. The good ones who stay generally prefer the academic environment to a more corporate one, are often a bit eccentric personally, and enjoy the variety of the work they get in a research environment.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Fun personal fact, us career For Profit accountants aren’t hireable for Non Profits given the differences involved! As mentioned up thread, they’re both specialized to their own regulations.

      I’ve been just dipping into NP work because my best friend was debating between FP and NP for her business adventure and I had to tell her she needs someone else to do the real work despite almost 20yrs of operating businesses and doing their accounting.

    4. OtterB*

      What I do could probably be done in the private sector in a role like data analyst. I like my non-profit environment for the work-life balance, for the mission, and for the more laid-back atmosphere (business casual all the time unless Big Meetings, etc.) The salary is lower, but the benefits are excellent and probably make up the difference. As parent of a kid, now young adult, with disabilities, the flexibility to WFH, take a couple hours in the middle of the day and make them up later, etc., has been priceless.

    5. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m a medical researcher, and have worked in both non-profit and industry. Non-profit research institutes need support staff (IT, HR, admin, purchasing, etc). These are positions that exist in a lot of places. I don’t know what the pay gap is, but I think it’s non-trivial.

      What I’ve noticed is that the people who choose to work at these non-profits often have a personal connection to the work. At the cancer institute, there were several survivors of childhood cancer, some visibly scarred. At the HIV institute, I’d bet that an actual majority of the employees were gays and lesbians old enough to remember the era before HIV was treatable. If you could do your job anywhere, might as well help deal with a disease you have a personal grudge against.

  52. Eukomos*

    A company in an area I’d like to work is starting a new program in my field, so they’re hiring several people with my skillset at once. There’s a senior and a junior version of my job available, and I’m trying to decide which to apply to. I completely match the qualifications for the junior version; for the senior one, I fulfill most of the qualifications but haven’t specifically worked with the methodology they want to use, and whether I have enough years of related experience depends on what they consider related experience. The pay difference isn’t huge, but the junior one’s a short term contract and I’ve been working on limited contracts like that for the past few years and am really sick of it.

    Should I apply to the junior one to be safe, or would that be underselling myself? If I apply for one and hope they’ll consider me for the other should they think I’m a better fit for it, would one of them be better to apply to? Would it be ok to apply for both, and if so, should I write different cover letters for each?

    1. irene adler*

      Is it possible to discuss the senior position with someone at the company? Sometimes the difference is experience level. So you’d be better off trying for the jr. position. But find this out-prior to applying. Get their ‘read’ on what the differences are between the two jobs.

      1. Eukomos*

        There was a contact person listed along with the link to the job postings on the listserv I found them on, I could write her. That’s a good idea, thanks!

    2. Not So Little My*

      In my field, I’d apply for the senior position and speak to how my existing experience would help me ramp up quickly on the new methodology. Also try to find some training videos, blog posts, or white papers about the methodology so you can intelligently address in your cover letter or interview what aspects of it would be straightforward for you to pick up and what parts about working with it specifically excite you. A lot of times those job descriptions are just wishlists anyway, and the company is quite willing to hire and train if someone has other strengths in the field.

    3. n*

      I think it’s worth applying for the senior role, unless the duties differ substantially from the junior.

      I’m not sure that all companies put a ton of thought into what separates the roles. My team has been looking for a senior position for the past year, and haven’t found anyone qualified yet. So they just decided to list the same exact position as a junior position, just asking for more experience than basic entry-level. I think the thought process was that qualified applicants were self-selecting out based on “senior” in the title. This varies company to company, though, of course.

  53. Mbarr*

    What’s a TV show or movie that drives you insane due to its ridiculous workplace drama or nonsense?

    I’ll start:
    – The first interview scene from The Devil Wears Prada… Could Anne Hathaway’s character been less professionally prepared for an interview?
    – Grey’s Anatomy… Ugh, where do I start?! Everyone should have been fired for inappropriate workplace behaviour in the first season.

    1. Anon For This*

      I might out myself if any of my friends are reading, but I always joke about the poor lab and office lighting conditions on crime dramas. “Wow. I guess they couldn’t afford light bulbs after getting that 3-D holagraphic conference room projector thing. Whoever does their budget needs to think about priorities . . . ” “Wow! This city can’t afford lighting for its prisons, but they have a crime-solving robot! Amazing!”

      1. Mbarr*

        Oh man, I never even though about that! That’s hilarious! Now I’m always going to notice this…

    2. KR*

      Doesn’t nessecarily drive me insane but makes me laugh – I often imagine acting like Ilana from Broad City at work. The sad thing is I think my coworkers would just roll their eyes and carry on. Also the IT crowd – so unrealistic how much they all share with each other

    3. Youth*

      The Quest for the Go-Getter. Everything about this violates good hiring and employment practices.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve actually thought about Grey’s Anatomy too — not just the salacious stuff like workplace affairs and obvious sexual harassment.

      But the basic management stuff, like when Bailey brought in the new internship director without telling Webber that she was replacing him.

    5. merp*

      The Bold Type – the main characters (Jane esp) just get way too close and personal with their boss, who puts up with way more unprofessional nonsense than she should.

      But I have watched all of it and plan to watch the new season so I can’t say it drives me too crazy, haha.

      1. Mbarr*

        LOL, that’s how I am with Grey’s Anatomy… I go from hate watching it, to genuinely enjoying it, then I get angry again at how ridiculous it is, etc… I’m on season 11. Why, why do I keep doing this to myself?!

    6. ContemporaryIssued*

      Bridget Jones’ Diary had so many cringe-worthy flirty office emails. I was young when I read it so I just thought it was cute and funny back then but now re-reading the novel, it’s like, yikes.

      1. Gumby*

        That and other chick-lit type books where the protagonist barely works at all! Get there late, 2 hour lunch – with booze, stop out for an afternoon stroll… How do they still have jobs?!?!?!?

        There was one episode of Criminal Minds where they got called to a case while supposedly in the middle of interviewing for a vacancy, grabbed one applicant who had a niche skill they thought they might need (and it was useful on the ONE case but has NEVER come up before or since), did the case with her and then hired her outright without so much as interviewing anyone else. The other applicants were physically in the office waiting for interviews when the team got called away. So there was no hiding the disaster of a hiring process (also, I suspect, not in line with federal hiring requirements).

    7. whistle*

      Every movie or TV show that shows a college professor meeting a student outside of class in the classroom. Professors have offices! They teach each class in a different room! They have no relationship to that classroom outside of class time! Arg!
      I feel better now, thanks.

    8. Neosmom*

      Devil Wears Prada – a print editor would never insist that an employee violate copyright law (theft of the Harry Potter manuscript)!

    9. Red Ghost*

      Chicago Med. The doctors and at least some of the nurses (esp. April) are extremely judgmental and emotionally invested; they often coerce patients or ignore their wishes. They definitely should have fired Dr. Holsted by now. This has only very seldom negative consequences. Also there are so many workplace-romances it’s ridiculous.

    10. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Pretty much any show or film that involves archaeology. Even the supposedly educational ones are not very realistic!

      Time Team here in the UK used to drive me nuts. It was better than many shows but the whole artificial “we have to do this huge project in three days” thing was annoying. It doesn’t show all the background research or the actual crew needed to do the whole project and gives an impression that these jobs can be done in no time.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Oh and any scene that shows an archaeological skull with the jaw still attached. Those are separate pieces and there’s nothing to hold them together once the rest of the body is gone! And people handling artifacts without gloves, especially things that are very delicate or susceptible to damage from the oils on your hands.

    11. Even Steven*

      Great fun question! Of all of the police procedurals, the only one I love and respect is Law & Order (all of the iterations, but especially SVU). The people are smart and serious, the dialogue is intelligent and the costumes are realistic. The L&O canon makes the other silly shows like CSI and NCIS (and others based on abbreviations) just seem ridiculous. I watched exactly one CSI episode, and didn’t get past the second commercial break, becuase years of gritty Law & Order made me painfully annoyed at the ‘coroner’ mincing around in high heels and a white suit (!!!) at a crime scene. Blecch. Give me Benson & Stabler any day.

  54. Anon Anon Anon*

    Two questions today! Here they are.

    1) I want to volunteer in order to improve my resume and network (in addition to all the usual reasons). I had a bad experience the last time I tried that. I realized that could have been avoided with more thorough research. So I’m doing my homework this time. I’m looking for a social services or pro-diversity type of organization that has a good reputation. A national or international one with offices in many places would be great. I don’t know if it would be ok to list specific groups here, but I’m interested in people’s experiences volunteering or working in the non-profit world, and suggestions for how to find and evaluate non-profits.

    2) If there is intentionally false information about you online because some people are biased against a minority group that you belong to or resemble, how would you address this when job searching? Is there a way to give people a heads up before they Google you? I’m talking about stuff where the bias isn’t immediately obvious – like fake social media accounts using your name, articles bu someone whose views aren’t obvious, etc.

    This was going to be three questions, but I feel so frustrated after writing those things out, I’m stopping here.

    1. Lilysparrow*

      The nonprofit I volunteer with, and just got a freelance gig in, is locally based but very well managed. They are currently in discussions to partner or possibly merge with a similar group in a nearby city, and the contrast in governance is stark (and may wind up tanking the partnership).

      I’m trying to think of things you could research from the outside or in an initial interview…

      These might be helpful:
      See if you can access their Annual Reports online (ours has several years’ worth on the website). Are they transparent about where their donors’ money is going?

      Does the board of directors have fixed and limited terms, or are the founders in power for life? (term limits help quell toxicity).

      Are there clear lines between the board members and the staff (especially executive staff), or are they all related, or doing dual roles? (Separation is good, obviously)

      Is there a clear reporting structure where each department has multiple layers of oversight and accountability? Are the people overseeing legally regulated functions properly licensed or accreddited? (For example, if there’s not a CPA on staff, is there one on the board to ensure reporting is done properly? If there’s medical or social work elements, are the relevant staff MDs or NPs or LSWs?

      What is the application process like for volunteers, how much training do volunteers get, and how organized is the training?

      If the org works with vulnerable populations, are background checks required for volunteers? Is there a written policy for client protection (like a child safety/reporting policy if they work with kids).

      What’s the internal growth/turnover rate like? Do key staffers grow into more responsible positions over time, or is there one-two people in charge long-term with a fast revolving door of mid-low ranking staff?

      Do former staffers remain involved as donors, board members, or public “boosters,” or do they cut ties and never speak of it again?

      That’s all I can think of off hand. Some of it would take some close reading, but if you’re really concerned about doing research beforehand, I think you could see those kind of patterns.

    2. Val Zephyr*

      The non-profit world is huge and varied. Can you share more information about what kind of volunteer work you want to do and what you hope to gain from it? And why are you specifically looking to volunteer for a national or international non-profit?

      1. Anon Anon Anon*

        Yes! It doesn’t have to be national or international. But I might relocate and it would be great if I could keep volunteering with the same organization. I also like to travel. So if I stayed long-term, it would be great if that could become a win-win (volunteering while traveling or traveling to volunteer).

        Here’s my deal. I’m coming out of a rough patch career-wise. I have a broad skill set that’s relevant to a lot of different things. My resume makes me look flaky because of the dreaded Context (other stuff going on in my life, work situations that I wouldn’t put on a resume). I need to pick things back up and take my career in a new direction, but I’m still exploring in that area.

        I need something that is fairly relaxed and friendly, not physically demanding, maybe flexible schedule-wise and would put me in touch with other people in my community in a professional type of setting. Something like updating a website, creating graphics, doing photography at events, setting up a database, fixing software problems – stuff like that. Something challenging and useful yet fairly low key (like being on call as backup tech support).

        I’ve been kind of isolated in recent years. This has been bad for a long list of reasons. I want professional contacts more than friends at this point. I want to use and build upon my existing skills.

        And I really want to do something that I find exciting and significant. I care about making a positive difference in the world. I’m trying to get out of a slump where things were going in a direction that just wasn’t for me (the type of company I worked at and volunteer jobs that weren’t the best fit).

        And I need to find a place that is diversity-friendly in practice, regardless of the verbiage they have on their public materials, etc. I have some medical things going on that have caused misunderstandings or led to intentional discrimination in the recent past, plus gender stuff and having lived kind of an unusual life in part because of that. So maybe a smaller office, a diversity-focused place . . . Something like that!

        1. Anon Anon Anon*

          PS! This will also be an experiment in addressing the things about me that can cause misunderstandings in a different way and more pro-actively. I need to get out of that rut where people are being mean because of things that are beyond my control and I feel victmized. I need to try different approaches and see what, if anything, helps with understanding and all of that.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      As far as reputation management, there’s an article here by Alison from a while back : https://www.askamanager.org/2012/11/when-your-online-reputation-takes-a-hit.html

      If people have been impersonating you online, I think you’d need to address that with the platform to see if you can get it taken down.
      Another option might be to use a variant of your name on your resume. Like if the fake profiles are “Anon Anon Anon,” you might put just “Anon Anon,” or use a middle initial, or a more or less formal nickname, that kind of thing. It could make someone question if that profile is really you or not, so if they asked you could truthfully say, “No, that’s not me! I’ve seen those, aren’t they awful? That’s why I use the initial.”

      I certainly wouldn’t go opening a lot of baggage about being targeted or who did it and why, before you even get your foot in the door.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        For articles about you, it depends what sort of things they say. If they are alleging you did something unethical or illegal, that could possibly be libel. If it comes up you can just say, “No, that’s not true.” But if it seems to be interfering with your livelihood you might need to pursue getting it taken down (which could require a court order).

        If it’s more something like the writer misgendering you or referring to you as part of a minority group that you aren’t in, I can’t imagine any employer you’d want to work for taking notice at all.

        But if it came up as a point of confusion or awkwardness, you can just shrug and say, “No, that’s not accurate.”

    4. Bismuth*

      Try lots of places! Sign up with several to volunteer. It doesn’t hurt to talk to someone, get a look around, see what sorts of needs they have, training you would get, etc. The research questions Lilysparrow wrote are awesome, but I’d focus on meeting people and seeing the place. If it seems fine, volunteer for a time or two and see if it clicks. The beauty of volunteering is you’re not tied down.

      Get on Volunteer Match and maybe another site, like Idealist or the local United Way’s, and find a bunch of places you’re interested in, can get to easily, and will work with your schedule. Be prepared — a lot of nonprofits are stretched for staff so you won’t hear back, the listings are out of date, etc. Also think of a few nonprofits you’d love to spend time at and drop them an email. Again, don’t expect to hear back from everyone! Don’t think it’s you. Cast your net widely. Something you support but may not be crazy passionate about may click for you on an interpersonal level, or your skills match their needs. Just ’cause it’s not what you were going for originally doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable work, and it could lead to experiences that will get you where you want to go. (It really can be like a job search sometimes.) At worst, you’ll learn something about a lot of different orgs that interest you.

      An example — I volunteer with a food pantry that happens to mostly serves immigrants. Lots of working with other cultures, but on paper, it’s just a food pantry. The umbrella org seems like it would be very homogeneous and people assume they might not welcome outsiders as clients or staff, but they walk the diversity walk. Like anywhere, it can be different once you’re inside. But as a volunteer, you get to choose whether you stay.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, I agree that showing up is what I’d choose and generally recommend. You certainly can’t find out what it’s *like* there unless you do.
        The research stuff is just going to help flag certain varieties of hot-mess orgs. (And there are as many different types of hot mess as stars in the sky)

        It’s not going to catch everything or tell you if the place is a good fit.

  55. Bird*

    I have two job offers and I’m having a devilish time deciding. I need to make a quick decision, both because I don’t want to string either place along and because my current workplace is devolving into one of the most toxic experiences I have ever had. My supervisor thinks I am an idiot and I am sincerely worried that we will be sued by a client. I want to get out before that happens or before they fire me.

    The first offered a salary close to what I’m making now. It’s a large company (10,000 employees) with a regular raise/bonus structure, and if I work hard I may be able to move quickly up the salary ladder. However, they have a reputation for churning and burning their employees, and the experience I would gain there may be hard to leverage at another company. Average tenure is 2 years. Plus, I would need to commute by car around 30 minutes each way; there is no wfh offered and PTO is mediocre, but health insurance is very good. The potential salary increase would help me and my fiancee pay off her crippling student loans in a more timely manner.

    The second is at the local large state university. I used to work as a student assistant on a related team and enjoyed it very much. The work would be socially valuable and I would be more than a cog in the machine. The salary is much lower than what I currently make, but I could walk/take the bus to work. It’s a soft money position, guaranteed for two years with a strong possibility of renewal, but no guarantees. PTO and benefits blow most other places out of the water, but the lower salary would make it harder to pay off student loans and keep up with living expenses.

    I think that either place would probably be exponentially better than my current job, and I feel so lucky to be able to make this kind of choice. But, I am certainly struggling to make a decision. Do you, AAM readers, have any advice? Suggestions for other things I should consider?

    1. To help you decide*

      Is “churn and burn” your department or the company as a whole? Personally, I think 30 mins each way via car is a short distance and not a lot of time. I’m leaning towards this offer.

      What is the commute like to/from the state university? Is there a way to negotiate the pay to match what you currently make now? How would you feel if they don’t renew the position in 2 years?

      1. Bird*

        Churn and burn is the company as a whole – there are multiple stories of high performers suddenly being fired after a year and a half or two years, especially in my particular role. This company hires many very young employees and finds it easier to replace than to re-train, apparently. The commute is complicated by the fact that I live in the Midwest; this winter has been extremely cold and snowy and I expect it will continue to be that way. The cost of this commute in terms of gas and additional car maintenance are substantial.

        The university is a 2 mile walk or bike ride from my apartment, through a very nice neighborhood; I previously made the same commute for 5 years and loved it. Or, I can take the bus part of the way during bad weather. I did negotiate their initial salary offer and received an $8k increase from them, which did push it above my minimum earning threshold. If the position were not renewed, it would be difficult, but I would likely know well in advance if that were not the case, due to the grant application process. Furthermore, once in the university’s system as a non-student employee, it is extremely common to move between schools or departments.

    2. londonedit*

      Oh, I think this is a tough one. With the ‘churn and burn’ place, I’d be worried about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, even though it seems like it would be better than your current job. It doesn’t sound like it would be a particularly nice place to work! But that might just be my personal feelings coming into play – I’d hate a stressful working environment. On the other hand, the university job sounds much better from a quality of life point of view – which, in an ideal world, would make it the obvious choice. But if the salary would truly leave you struggling to keep up with your loans and everyday living expenses, then that’s just going to make you stressed and miserable in a different way.

      If you can live on the salary for the uni job, personally, I’d totally take that one. Just for the work/life balance, the benefits and the more socially valuable work. But if it would mean that you’d struggle to pay for the things you need, then I’m afraid I think I’d have to choose the other job.

      1. Bird*

        My current workplace is rife with unclear expectations, abusive practices, and questionable ethics. I think the churn and burn place is better, but by how much, I couldn’t be sure. If it helps, it’s a software company, and while I would be in a non-developer position, I would be subject to the same kinds of crunch expectations as the developers. Another wrinkle is that I could not start there until May, and my fiancee’s current appointment lasts only until the end of April. I cannot keep working at my current job until then, so I would need to risk living on savings and my fiancee’s job, until it ends, and buying health insurance from the marketplace.

        I don’t know that the salary at the university job would cause me and my fiancee to really struggle, but it would be tight. We have earned substantially less than this recently and mostly managed. I could look into finding a second, part-time position or freelancing if needed. That is not an option at the higher-paying job – I would have to sign a contract stating that Churn and Burn Co. is my only employment.

    3. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      Be very wary of soft money jobs at University. You should look at that one with the assumption that it will not be there in two years.

      Having said that, how important is your commute (a 30 minute commute would make me miserable, but I am a small town kinda girl) or how important are the benefits? Good health insurance and retirement are really important.

      1. Bird*

        Believe me, I am very wary and assuming that I will need to stay on my toes. There is some comfort in the fact that the PI for this project is a rising star in a field that is gaining national attention, but nothing is certain.

        The 30 minute drive would be stressful, especially in bad weather. I am a good driver and used to dealing with snow and ice up here, but I don’t enjoy driving. The university job has truly excellent health/dental/vision for a low price, as well as about 3 times the PTO of the churn and burn job. Plus, if I can stay as an employee there, it has an amazing set of retirement benefits.

        1. foolofgrace*

          Sounds like you’ve made up your mind. It’s a personal choice — for me, it’s hard to be happy if I’m not making enough money, no matter the PTO etc.

        2. Midwesterner*

          If you are in the city I think you are in, there are buses to the large company from downtown. Would not having to drive change your calculation?

          1. Bird*

            I am likely where you’re thinking. But, we don’t live downtown, so taking the bus would double my commute time.

            1. Minocho*

              I prefer driving, but many of my coworkers take the bus. it also significantly increases their commute time, but that is time they’re not driving. Some use it to work on laptops or tablets. Some read. Some listen to podcasts. Most use it as time to unwind from work.

      2. Elaine*

        My first concern about the university job is that it could evaporate in 2 years. And then I realized that Churn and Burn isn’t likely to last more than 2 years, either, based on others’ experiences. So that’s a wash. I get the impression that the money is the only thing in favor of Churn and Burn. If that’s true and Bird can make a go of it on the university money, it sounds to me like the decision has actually already been made.

    4. deesse877*

      Universities sometimes make a virtue of internal or lateral hiring, too. Would your position there be unique, or would your skills be transferable within the institution? Do they have a rep for internal hiring and lifetime employment?

      Also, are there tuition benefits for you and partner?

      1. Bird*

        There is definitely a practice of assessing internal candidates first, and many jobs are only open to current employees. My position would allow me to build many extremely transferable skills that would be valuable both within a university setting and at external organizations. In contrast, at Churn and Burn Co., lateral transfers are difficult and uncommon, and the structure is relatively flat. Most people do their best to stay within the university, which is encouraged – academic staff members are integral parts of a department’s administrative structure.

        There are some tuition benefits for employees and college planning for kids, but since I have a PhD and she is a veterinarian (and we do not plan to have children), any courses we take would be strictly related to professional development.

      2. Alianora*

        That’s true. I started as a temp at my university, and that 6-month experience really opened up networking opportunities and got me many more interviews with other departments than I had been getting previously.

        I agree with what others have said that I would go for Job 2 unless it would be a real financial hardship.

    5. Not A Manager*

      You say that the skills/prestige from Big Company might not transfer well to another job search. How about the experience that you’ll get at State University?

      It sounds like you might be job searching after two years at either place. I’d focus on which job will provide better leverage in your next search.

      1. Bird*

        Big Company uses a legacy system and non-industry standard tools, apparently, which is why I worry about transferable skills. But, since I would be in a non-technical role, it may not be as much of a problem as I fear. If I can make it through the one-year non-compete after leaving, I could probably work with one of Big Company’s clients afterwards.

        The State University job would allow me to build on skills that I’ve already begun to acquire, and could position me to work in a more senior capacity. My fiancee is focusing her job search on veterinary teaching positions, so I would also probably try for alt-ac jobs at the institution that eventually employs her. Depending on how that goes, I may be job searching again sooner than two years from now. The two-body problem is the worst.

    6. Autumnheart*

      Honestly….I’d take the money. You could use the money to pay off debt, and you know you wouldn’t be there for a huge amount of time. Taking a job that pays much LESS than you’re making now won’t do you any favors in the long run. Taking a job that is more fulfilling but pays less is a consideration that makes sense when your financial needs are being met.

      1. Bird*

        It’s tough, because after doing the math, the additional commuting cost basically puts the higher-paying job at the same pay level as the lower-paying one, before tax. (I’ve also factored in the costs of insurance.)

        1. Mill Miker*

          If the commute cancels out the extra money, and you’re likely to get churn-and-burned before making any real career progress, and the experience wont’t be valuable outside of the company… what really are the pros of the first option?

          1. Bird*

            So, I can’t actually predict whether I’ll be burned, obviously. I’d do my utmost to perform well, and if I can make it past the two year mark, I could end up making a ton of money. With my particular combination of degrees and skills, which are not at all “in demand” anywhere, it’s more money than I could expect elsewhere, for sure. And, the experience could be valuable at clients of this company, after I finish the one-year non-compete.

    7. The Ace Tomato Company*

      It sounds like either one could be 2 year positions. The uni one with the more pleasant commute and being a known entity with better PTO and being socially valuable seems like a better choice to me!

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, for me the pleasant commute would weigh very heavily in my decision!

        OTOH, paying down debt is a very good priority to have.

        Since it sounds like you could consider both the positions as having around a 2-year expiration date, I’d set that aspect aside and focus my pro and con lists on this quality of life stuff. How will it affect your life planning to have debt paid off sooner? What would you do with your extra time not spent commuting/how important is spending time outside to your mental health?

        It’s a good position to be in but definitely a pickle. Good luck!

    8. Aggretsuko*

      So either way it’s a 2-year stint, more or less. I’d be most concerned about leaving churn-n-burn with a bad reputation that might make it hard for you to get jobs later if it’s that kind of place. I think I’d lean towards the university job myself even if it’s soft money because the odds of getting longer term employment might be better.

      1. Bird*

        Churn and Burn only confirms dates of employment, so I couldn’t expect any kind of reference from them (which could be fine, if I my best efforts are not good enough for them). They do enforce a one-year non-compete agreement and occasionally put folks on a (rumored) blacklist with their clients, since former employees often leave to work at client organizations.

    9. Combinatorialist*

      The best advice I got on making a decision is to “try on each option for size” and see how it fits. Tell yourself “I have decided on Churn and Burn” and pay attention to how that feels and the life changes that entails. Half a day later, tell yourself the other option and see how that feels. Think about lifestyle changes that could make the money situation more workable — could you sell your car and share with your fiancee? Think about the daily stresses in each situation and decide which is better

      It seems like your gut is telling you to go to the university. If Churn and Burn churns that much, it seems like you might be able to get another offer in two years if you need to? Or could you get another offer at the university after you have been churned?

      1. Bird*

        The advice in your first paragraph is really helpful, I think. I haven’t really sat with either of them – I’ve been trying to gather as much information as possible before making a decision. But, I do plan to take the weekend to truly consider each option and how it feels.

        In terms of lifestyle changes, we’re pretty frugal, I think. We’ve worked hard to minimize our expenses apart from my fiancee’s loans – my car, for example, is completely paid off, and she doesn’t have one. But, I will look at our budget to see if we have other places we can cut back.

        Getting a foot back in the door at the university was a challenge. I was rejected from 5 other positions there without even being interviewed before finally doing two interviews for this one and getting an offer this past Wednesday. But, I realize that this isn’t exactly the most difficult job search ever; my fiancee’s been trying to find a permanent position since mid-2017. So, yeah, I guess I’m fairly confident in my ability to get a job somewhere else later if I do get chewed up and spit out.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Well, you say that once you figure in commute costs, the pay is essentially the same (so neither one would help with paying expenses or student loans). One place is high stress with low benefits. The other is less stress, better work/life balance, and better benefits. I would take the latter job.

      It sounds as if these student loans belong to your fiancée, not you. If so, I would caution you against making them your responsibility. Your fiancée decided to take on this debt and it should be their responsibility. Also, is your fiancée making responsible financial decisions (as opposed to incurring more debt)? I know you didn’t ask about this. I am adding it in because I have been burned by helping a significant other with debt.

      1. Bird*

        I’ve tried to summarize here, and perhaps did a bad job, but there are definitely many advantages to each job – they truly are relatively equal. (I have a very extensive spreadsheet to confirm this information.)

        I have in no way taken on my fiancee’s student loans – she makes her own payments (as aggressively as possible) as well as contributing an equal share to our household expenses. She’s currently working in a high-paying, though limited-term, job, and is actively and earnestly job hunting. Her field is extremely specialized, but once she gets a position, she will likely be able to pay down the debt even more aggressively. Furthermore, she has been able to start a savings account and is building a strong credit history since finishing her education. Neither of us plan to incur more student debt – any additional loans we take out would be for purchasing a house, which will not take place for years. My only involvement in this is to make sure that I am contributing as much as I can to our shared expenses, so that she can commit more of her resources to eliminating the debt. I understand your concern, but we do maintain separate finances outside of our contributions to shared living costs, and she is possibly the kindest and most conscientious person I know.

    11. Electric Sheep*

      This is not advice, but fwiw, I get the vibe from your comments that you like the uni job more.

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d take the uni job. Both places sound like they are likely to be about 2 year’s worth of work but you will feel much more positive about life with an easy commute and an environment you enjoy.

      1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Yes, and when you come to do your next job search, it’ll help if you’re well rested & have the daily walks to think about it.

  56. KayEss*

    I got handed a critical project with an extremely tight deadline this week, worked over hours to complete it, and got massive praise for the results from the top leadership… and 24 hours later I’m still angsting over how when the CEO came by my desk to thank me personally, I gave him possibly the single worst handshake of my life. I just didn’t get a good grip and it was limp fingers-only pure awkwardness. Someone reassure me that I’ll be remembered as the person who steps up in a crisis to get things done with outstanding quality, not the person who doesn’t know how to shake hands.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Laugh it off. That’s the only thing you can do. And if you get a chance to shake the CEO’s hand again, give him a really good one.

      My husband and I once encountered kind of a big-name person – a longtime and well known American sports coach. It appeared a handshake was going to happen and my husband inexplicably grabbed the coach around the wrist and shook his wrist (I’m shaking-laughing over here while I type this because it was so weird). He has no idea what happened or how or why. But during the wrist-shake he said “well, this is awkward,” laughed, and then walked away. So, you know, like this happens sometimes.

      1. valentine*

        If you’re a woman or assumed to be one, they may have experienced it as a delicate upper-class-type thing. Let it lie. Bad handshakes are no more noteworthy than remembering who said “You’re welcome” prior to being thanked or “Good [different time of day]”. The OP who mistakenly hugged the CEO while entering the building went on to work really well with him.

        The CEO thanked you personally! #celebr8

    3. Kathenus*

      I can all but guarantee you that you are the only one of you thinking about the handshake right now. Think about if the roles were reversed, and one of your employees did something amazing and you went to personally thank them. If they had a weird handshake, had food in their teeth, a hole in their shirt, whatever – what would you think of when you thought of that person going forward? Probably – that’s the rockstar who did such an amazing job on that project. That’s what they are thinking about you right now.

      1. KayEss*

        Yup, I know that realistically this is 95% my anxiety talking… but the whole thing is still fresh enough that I can’t squash the cringey feeling just yet. I keep telling myself that at least I didn’t accidentally hug him, like in that one letter from a couple years back!

    4. TechWorker*

      If it makes you feel any better I had a handshake with a senior colleague I’d met once before and massively fumbled it: a) I was sat down when introduced so was half standing up as he arrived and b) I basically mashed my hand into his and got my little finger stuck the wrong side of his hand.

  57. 867-5309*

    I’ve been waiting for this since yesterday!

    I was trying to visit a blog that we want to pitch our company to for a write-up. I live and work in Norway but this is a US-based, English language blog.

    Up popped an ad that covered the page in Norwegian so I called over to the CEO and head of sales to look at my screen and translate. That page disappeared so I hit the back button.

    PORN! Two men enjoying themselves independent of each other.

    I accidentally put an “s” at the end of your blog URL.

    I am and was mortified!!! Fortunately I work for a startup and everyone has a sense of humor but it’s embarrassing. And now also, a running joke when I ask someone to look at something on my computer.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      You’re not alone!
      A male friend had a porn site pop up on a work computer during the work day and he immediately closed it down. He then reported the oops to the IT department that day, so there’d be no question that it was a mistake and he shut it down within seconds. Reporting it was better for his peace of mind than hoping no one would find out later.

  58. Audiophile*

    Anyone make the jump from nonprofit to for profit? I’d love to hear about it and would love some advice on making the switch.

    I’m currently working for a medium-sized nonprofit managing digital marketing (including email marketing), as well as other forms of marketing and some communications work. I’d like to move into communications or email marketing for a corporation. I seem to be hitting a wall in my applications though and I’m rarely getting interview requests from corporations.

    1. KayEss*

      I worked adjacent to marketing professionals (I’m a designer) in a nonprofit (university) environment where everyone was desperately trying to get out (we went from 20 staff to 3 in under a year, at which point they dissolved the entire department and laid the last of us off), and making that jump sounded like it was pretty difficult and frustrating for them.

      The main barrier seemed to be having experience with cutting-edge techniques and tools–universities are routinely about 10 years behind on that kind of thing, and I imagine most nonprofits are restricted in similar ways for budget reasons. My last job we basically had none of the industry-standard marketing funnel tools–no Salesforce, no Marketo, not even something like MailChimp–if it wasn’t free, we couldn’t use it. We also had basically no advertising budget, so anything beyond Google AdWords and the occasional Facebook ad was out. Furthermore, we were constantly slammed with last-minute requests, so our timelines didn’t even allow us to do things like A/B testing, because we couldn’t make time for creating two versions of the same thing. The result was, even for me, long job searches when we didn’t have experience with this or that software, didn’t have any data from large-scale, multi-channel campaign successes to point to, and generally felt like we had set our careers back significantly. So if that sounds familiar, you have my deepest sympathy. I think pretty much everyone there went on to jobs at other (slightly less dysfunctional) universities, except a few who were very early in their careers and managed to land low-level jobs at small agencies.

      I wish I had some really good advice to give you, but mostly I can just tell you that you’re not imagining that it’s hard. You might have to make the jump in a couple steps by looking for positions at nonprofits that are more on top of current marketing techniques.

      1. Audiophile*

        We’re moving to Salesforce in the near future (also managing that project), we had MailChimp and switched to another ESP (managed that process), we don’t have Marketo (definitely out of our budget), we are utilizing Google AdWords but that’s on the nonprofit side. Our A/B testing is limited to subject lines. I’ve started teaching myself new things, which is what I did a few years ago to boost my resume. I guess I’ll keep plugging away.

        The org, like many nonprofits is struggling, so I’m worried about being unemployed if I don’t actively search. I really don’t want to move to another nonprofit if I can avoid it. While I’ve worked for corporations, it was not in marketing or communications, so I’ve removed that from my resume.

        1. Eight*

          Not a university, but this is 100% my experience working at a nonprofit as well. I’m ostensibly a “data analyst” and thought I might be able to transition to marketing, but we pretty much only use Excel. I suggested to my boss that we get Tableau and he had to reach out to his network to see if anyone had heard of it. I don’t even want to say which email program we use because it’s so outdated that I feel like it would give me away LOL. My boss refuses to let our team even use Google Calendar and insists that we have to use this software from 1999. Looking at job postings shattered my illusions about easily being able to transition into digital marketing pretty fast.

    2. 867-5309*

      I’ve done a lot of hiring in my career (currently CMO of a small tech company) and many times throughout resume of nonprofit professionals can feel too generalist or include tasks that are not related to the job. Another is that some focus on “raising awareness” or other vanity metrics, without a lot of measureable ones. It doesn’t have to be a direct contribution to money raised, which might not be something a hiring manager can relate to. Instead, focus on increasing the email file or open rates, etc.

      I’m also happy to take a look at your resume. On LinkedIn I’m in/jpbrown

  59. Sloan Kittering*

    I’m going to send the link in my next comment – but I was interested in this Atlantic article about how “meaningful work” is the elite American religion and is better understood through that lens instead of economic necessity. The article specifically talks about college educated males working more hours than ever before and how that’s not really driven by need so much as religious fever. It kind of rang a bell for me, anyone else?

    “But our desks were never meant to be our altars. The modern labor force evolved to serve the needs of consumers and capitalists, not to satisfy tens of millions of people seeking transcendence at the office.”

    2. LCL*

      I read that this morning. Basically true but a bit glib. But I come from a lower economic class than the people described in the article, and always knew we worked because otherwise we would be broke and poor.

      1. matcha123*

        Same. The Atlantic and NYT are written by and for upper-middle class white people who were born into those worlds and will leave them richer (as long as they don’t mess up badly). The NYT article that featured the man making an annual 1.2 million, but still feeling like his life had no meaning is another example.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      Since my link isn’t showing up yet, you can find it by searching Atlantic “Workism Is Making Americans Miserable” by Derek Thompson

    4. Asenath*

      Transcendence at the office?? I haven’t read the article – must look for it – but for someone from my mixed middle and working class background, work was something to did to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. If it happened to be something you loved so much you’d do it for free, or something you felt a religious fervour for, that was lucky, but it wasn’t a necessary part of a working life. But then, I’m not elite, American or male.

    5. matcha123*

      I also read that article, however it didn’t really resonate with me.
      I think that American men, in particular white men, are at a point where they are trying to forge a new identity for themselves. I also feel like America’s history with Christianity ties into the way the men in the article approach what work is, what it is supposed to mean, and what they are supposed to get out of it.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I did think there was a whole Calvinist history where work = getting into heaven that could have been referenced more, although I’m no historian.

        I do feel like much of my social circle’s fixation on work is more like a mania, a self-driven thing that, while tacitly encouraged and rewarded by their workplaces, doesn’t even seem to be arising from their bosses / companies. And then they’re *creating* that culture for their coworkers and subordinates, who see these men putting in 50-60 hour workweeks and assume that’s what’s necessary for success.

        1. Asenath*

          And the second paragraph – again, I’m at a disadvantage discussing this milieu, not being elite, American etc – but the man who found his entire identity at work or as a member of an occupation goes way, way back – I (although not a man) have tendencies that way, my father’s work meant a lot to him, my grandfather battled against forced retirement at 65, and lost….probably some medieval serfs took great pride in plowing a perfect furrow. (I’m also unsure about the worklife of serfs; surely in medieval Europe, at least, I can’t speak for other places, there was far more time off than we have today? Lots of religious and other traditional festival that were lost with industrialization…. but I digress.) And women throughout the ages sometimes found a very strong sense of identity in their occupations. I think it’s got a lot to do with a human instinct to form connections and community (including in the workplace), plus maybe sometimes social encouragement for being the best at plowing a field, or operating a piece of equipment, or organizing and cleaning or, well, almost anything. People like to be admired. That’s not exclusive to rich Americans who work ridiculous hours.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            I have also heard that serfs in the dark ages actually worked relatively short hours with many religious holidays and whole seasons off! I’m not sure how true it is but I have definitely heard it.

            1. Autumnheart*

              Well, being a serf would be like teaching–you might have the season “off”, but you still gotta eat.

              I always thought it would be great to bring the Jubilee back–every 7 years, everyone’s debt is forgiven.

              1. Minocho*

                Wasn’t that the fiftieth year? the Jubilee of Jubilees? Or something?

                I thought the concept was pretty cool myself. I often read the Old Testament (more exciting stories!) while I was supposed to be listening to the sermon as a kid.

      2. Asenath*

        But not all Christians have the same view of work! Even according to the Protestant work ethic, work is merely a duty. It’s not something to worship, much less to put above other duties like charity – to do so is mere idolatry. And the article itself argues that the decline of traditional faith is associated with religious-like devotion to other things, like work.

        I haven’t had time to read it properly, but it doesn’t resonate with me, either. Wrong audience, probably.

    6. Delphine*

      I have a friend who is very attached to finding meaningful work–a calling. She’s a woman of color, so I don’t think this is a trend limited to upper-class white men. I imagine it’s related (as the author suggests) to people who don’t find meaning in the other parts of life that they’re “meant” to, such as children or marriage, or generations that have absorbed the “work your passion” message.

    7. Reba*

      Interesting paired reading might be “Bullshit Jobs” by David Graeber. There was a lot of press around this book when it came out last year so it should be easy to find summaries, interviews, etc. I learned about it when the author appeared on the Hidden Brain podcast.

    8. Millennial Lizard Person*

      As an upper-middle class American millennial, who was raised with the idea that I would go to college and find the career I love: I found this spot-on. Everything in high school was about getting into college; everything in college was about prepping for the workforce (finding your ‘passion’). I derive about 90% of my self-worth from being good at my career. And I do truly love it, but if something were to happen and I couldn’t work full-time, I don’t know what I’d do.

      I recently changed jobs within my company because my old job was boring me. It was stable but directionless with distracted bosses. I had plenty of free time at work and I could leave it at the office… and I was bored to tears. I’m so excited to be in my new role where I’m vastly over my head and have a lot of technical background to learn.

      We fell for it, hook line and sinker. We’re defined by our career.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        And when we all get to retirement age or what would have been retirement age we have set ourselves up for an existential crisis. I can only imagine that the age of retirement wont keep getting pushed because we need people or long lives, high costs, and low savings but because they can’t.

    9. Iris Eyes*

      I found that article really interesting and shared it with a few people.

      With most religious expression there are level of fervor. Ideas like finding a job you love, or finding your calling/passion are the entry level and broad cultural expressions. The propensity to define ourselves by our company and title is another expression. Seeing the title as the end rather than the means is basic adherence.

  60. Anon for this*

    I want to apply for an internal position. Should I tell my current boss before or after I apply for it?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Hmm, IMO it totally depends on your relationship with this manager, and it’s very specific to your circumstances. Would this manager be surprised to hear that you had applied in another department? I would want to give them a heads up so they don’t find out for the first time when the other department brings it up. Would they try to block you from leaving if they could? In that case, I might wait, and give the other department or HR or my grandboss a heads up. Are you determined to leave one way or another even if you don’t get the internal transfer, or would you want to stay in this role for a long time if you don’t get it? In some companies and positions it’s totally normal, even expected, for staff to move up – in others it could be seen as a betrayal. There’s a lot of factors to consider. Sometimes you can ask the hiring manager not to mention it if it’s a total non-starter on their end – but in general, your boss is going to find out anyway, it’s better for you to be the messenger. If you’re determined to apply it doesn’t matter so much (IMO) whether the message is “I’m about to apply” or “I already did apply” but a petty boss may care that you didn’t ask for their “blessing.”

      1. Anon for this*

        I want to leave one way or another. An opening happened to come up for what I’ve been thinking I want to do, given the chance, and I could lean on the reason that it’s more technical and challenging work in line with my area of study. (Rather than one major factor, which is boss himself.) I think he might be surprised and possibly hold it against me if I don’t get it.

    2. Val Zephyr*

      Before you apply, you should check your company’s policy on internal applications. Some employers require that you get your supervisor’s approval before applying and some require that you be in your position a certain amount of time before you’ll be considered for another. You’ll want to know all that before you start the process.

      3. Anon for this*

        Interesting. The policy says I would have to inform my current manager that an application has been submitted after an initial interview with the hiring manager.

        1. Val Zephyr*

          That’s a pretty good policy actually. It gives you a chance to find out more about the position and how well matched you are for it before you have to tell your current manager. Of course, there is a chance of your manager finding out before you’re ready to tell him and you’ll want to be prepared for that. If you’re looking to change jobs anyway, I would suggest you start applying for external positions at the same time you apply to the internal one.

  61. Anon Anon*

    What should an organization do about gendered pay inequity?

    I’ve been going rounds with my organization over pay inequity, and I’m not yet at the point of taking any legal steps (but may if it doesn’t resolve; I have gotten legal advice). So my question is not about what an organization is legally obligated to do (my lawyer can advise me on that).

    I’m just curious about opinions about how the mechanics should work. Like: should the men’s pay be reduced? The women’s pay increased (even if that would put their salaries way over market, like the men’s)? Does it matter that it’s a nonprofit, entrusted with thoughtfully spending our donors’ contributions?

    Our situation:

    My organization has clear levels for each role, with detailed descriptions of the differences between the levels.

    I, and several other women in my division, are underclassified by at least one level (that is, our job descriptions are those of a “manager” or “director” but our titles and salaries are “coordinator” or “associate”).

    The two men in our division who have equivalent jobs (managing programs) are overclassified by one or more levels (that is, their job descriptions are those of a “manager” or “director” but their titles and salaries are “senior director.”)

    So the correct this, what should change? Should the men be reclassified to the correct, lower levels? (This would likely meant that they would quit — I can’t imagine how frustrating it would be! Their salaries would be cut by at least $15,000.) Or should the women be classified up to the same level as the men (raises of up to $25,000 each)? Or is there something I’m not thinking of?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      This happened recently with a friend’s company. He noticed the discrepancy in pay in two similarly titled people of differing genders. We’ll say they’re llama groomers. He rectified the salary of the female groomer and didn’t give a raise to the male groomer. He noted that the female groomer had been with the company since the start of her career whereas the male groomer started with some years of experience and managed to start when they were in desperate need of groomers, so they naturally started his pay higher to attract him to the position. It wasn’t done with ill intent.

      I would maybe suggest correcting the titles and giving pay raises to the females affected by this while just leaving the men as they are. It’s the most equitable thing that can be done.

      1. Anon Anon*

        Doing this would overclassify everyone — everyone would have the title and salary of “senior director,” but our jobs are actually “manager” or “director.”

        That would obviously be great for me, but I’m not sure it’s the right choice. We’d have to make significant cuts (like ending a program and laying off its staff), and we’d likely face some challenges in future fundraising because our operating would be much higher than the market.

        (I’m also not sure it’s the wrong choice! It just doesn’t seem easy to me.)

        1. MechanicalPencil*

          Well that’s a pickle. Can you do some sort of generic “we’re doing an organizational overhaul and looking at everyone’s mumble mumble” and go from there to better match title to salary to person? Try to remove gender from the equation and just look at performance and duties and have a blind committee make judgments?

    2. Asenath*

      Some employers have formal procedures for re-classifying jobs – the fact that a successful reclassification changes the job-holder’s salary and title is a result of the process. I think that might be more common in civil service type jobs or university ones, though.

      If you are in such a place, though, the person holding the job goes through the long, detailed process necessary. Naturally, if it looks like you might be reclassified down, you won’t be motivated to have your job re-classified!

      I’ve been learning more about how we have a LOT of mis-match between job titles and duties (not gender-based, though, it’s an almost exclusively female workplace). And we do have the option to go for re-classification. I don’t want to get into identifying details, though.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      When we’ve had to do this at previous companies, we raised the women’s salaries while freezing the men’s (if the men’s were over market).

      1. Combinatorialist*

        This seems the best to me. Bring the men down in title to the level of their actual job, keep their salaries the same, and freeze them until they are back in their level. (Yes, I get this is a pay cut with time, that is what you get when you are being paid over market rate. If you don’t think you are being made over market, go find the job to show that). Bring the women up in title and jump their pay to be on par with the men’s. Then freeze it also until everyone is being paid on their level.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      There are lots of things to do.

      In terms of existing employees, determine what makes sense for people to be paid, and if the employee is under that, give that employee a raise; if the employee is over that, keep that employee at that salary for years until they’re at the salary they should be (i.e., they never get a raise, because they’re already beyond what they should have been paid).

      The steps and corresponding salaries should be transparently laid out (years of experience, title, educational degrees, etc.).

      That said, adjusting titles and pay levels won’t fix culture. If person-at-higher-level always gets paid X and person-at-lower-level always gets paid Y, that may seem fair at surface level, but if men disproportionately get promoted to higher-level, then that’s still sexism, and that’s still pay inequity.

      Also, if you don’t want pay inequity to continue with new hires, you have to get rid of asking for salary history (it may already be illegal where you live, but it’s not in many places) and also get rid of salary negotiation. Yes, under normal circumstances, women can and should negotiate, but the truth is that with the salary negotiation system, women still get penalized salary-wise more than men. The best way to avoid that is to just be upfront about trying to make as competitive an offer as possible and that there’s no negotiation for any new hires.

    5. it happens*

      A true re-classification of all the jobs is the most equitable solution. That means reducing the titles and pay of the currently over-classified staff. It also means a whole lot of managing expectations during the process and good communication about being faithful stewards of the org’s resources. Will the over-classified leave? Will they be able to get jobs equivalent to their current titles and pay with the accomplishments they have today? Will the organization be able to hire new people for those roles at the new re-defined titles and pay? The management needs to think a few steps ahead, but once the inequity is known they have a ticking time bomb and better deal with it.
      This is a tricky situation and I hope that the team is up to solving it for the good of all.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Titles don’t matter,it’s duties that count here!

      The state put through this law last year and they pounded that through the trainings.

      They need to show their calculations to justify the differences.

      They’ll raise the women’s rates and change titles/job descriptions to be better suited if they’re found to be paying men more.

  62. Mimmy*

    AAM website question:

    I’m looking for a particular post from an Open Thread a few weeks ago. Does the “Search” function look that deeply, or would it only find Alison’s original posts?

    Thanks!

    2. CastIrony*

      I like to use the ctrl+f function on my computer and search for key words of what I’m looking for. For example, if I am looking for a post about tea-shaped cats, I would put in, “tea-shaped cats”.

      Best of luck to you

      1. ..Kat..*

        I use control-f on my PC with the Chrome browser. But it only searches the current blog page. Is there anyway to search all of AAM?

        I have an iPad using Safari browser. But I cannot figure out how to search a blog page?

        Thanks.

    4. LCL*

      A few weeks? Just post what you are looking for. Some of us have odd memories and might be able to find it for you. Odd memory defined-finding a post from a few weeks back is a piece of cake. Remembering to pick up something in the store on a 4 item list is impossible.

    7. JanetM*

      I’ve searched for my name and found my comments, so I think it will likely find the post if you can sufficiently narrow down the search criteria. Good luck!

    8. Mimmy*

      Thanks everyone. I’m actually looking for someone else’s post – they were considering a Masters in Public Policy and I think they got a small number of replies. I’ve been toying with the idea off-and-on myself but didn’t want to post a redundant question lol.

      Off to try now!

      2. grace*

        Oh hey, that was me! Still considering it. :) There wasn’t a lot of information given here so would love to hear your perspective on it too!

        ps if it wasn’t me please let me know who it was so I can read some more too!

        1. Mimmy*

          Haha yup, that was you :)

          I know just as much as you. Several people have suggested I go the policy route; what scares me off is some of the coursework – most, if not all, programs seem to require coursework in economics and finances.

  63. ArtK*

    Got rejected for a job this week, which made me sad. I asked the recruiter if they could provide any information about why and they very kindly came back with a list of issues. Most are because I either lack some experience or it wasn’t emphasized enough in my resume. Then they said that if I wanted to be reconsidered, I could address those issues in a cover letter! I’m waiting to hear back from a couple of my references to make sure that I’m not saying things in that letter that they couldn’t back up if asked. I’m going to submit the letter later today!

    1. CastIrony*

      Good luck! I actually got rejected for a job this week, too, because someone else fit their needs better (more experience).

      1. ArtK*

        Thanks. It’s quite likely that they’ll still have a better candidate, but I’m not giving up until I have to!

    2. JobHunter*

      That’s great! Good luck. I was also recently rejected, and found that they had relisted the position before they notified me. I hadn’t hought about askimg for feedback.

  64. HR Lady*

    Hello! Following on from my question about presentations last week, I can confirm that I gave the talk today and it was successful! I finished about 15 minutes ago so my adrenaline is still quite high! I have popped back to my desk to finish off work before having to deal with a panel in about 20 minutes. Thank you for the tips around introductions!

  65. CastIrony*

    Hi! I wonder how people who became a medical administrative assistant got their first jobs. Currently, I am trying to get this kind of job, but with no luck! I have the certifications, I have a bachelor’s degree (in art), and I think I am doing everything right with help from this blog, like thanking each member of my interview committees!

    What am I doing wrong?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a saturated market so they may simply just be going with those with even a little experience to avoid training you in basics!

      Have you been trying small offices as well as the major ones? Have you thought to try to get into medical records and then move to admin? Sometimes it’s just they want some medical-ish background!

      1. CastIrony*

        I live in a small town, and I’ve tried most of the offices and almost every posting in this area, big and small! I think I may have to go back to school for medical records. Does that mean medical coding (it’s my weak spot)? The closest I have is a knowledge of EHR (I got certified in this, too.)

        Thank you for replying!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Medical records doesn’t require any additional schooling or certificates. It’s just a low rung medical clerical job.

          It’s been many many moons since my stint in records, I temped there, they wanted me to stay on but my heart is in business/accounting so I flew the coop instead.

          A small area may be the real issue. The jobs are few and people are more apt to hire people they know through some channel over strangers from a resume :(

          I’m sorry that it’s not too helpful. I think you’re not the problem and are a great person that could do the job but it’s something outside of your control more likely! My advice is the same for everyone general,never give up and explore adjacent options if possible that’s within your desired field. Especially as a first job!

  66. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I called a person who interviewed and seemed excited about the to offer them three position. Voicemail. I left one and then emailed them the offer as well.

    Nope.

    Then we hired another person a few days later. He was really enthusiastic and answered his phone, immediately accepted and was going to start next day…

    No show. Phone straight to voicemail when I tried calling to see if he misunderstood the start time.

    I got to creep into the shop to tell the floor manager it was a no go. And all the other guys started asking me if the new person was here yet.

    Production hiring in the Big City is exactly like small podunk dirt farm hiring I’m now learning.

    TGIF, my friends!! I’m back on the energy drinks. Coffee isn’t enough for my darkened soul this week.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I haven’t tried any enhanced coffees! I honestly don’t like the coffee taste, I’m a “coffee with my sugar” kind of girl. I found I’m fond of cold brew with sweet cream awhile back though!

  67. Sick Chick*

    I’ve been home sick from work the past two days with chills/fever and diarrhea. (TMI I know.) I’m debating whether or not to call in sick again today. I work a night shift. I’m running out of sick leave though.

    1. Jaid*

      I feel for you, sis. Honestly, those symptoms say “stay home and hydrate” more than “go in and do crap work”.

      I hope you recover quickly.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      By going in, you’ll stretch your illness out more than if you give your body time to fight the crud with rest and clear liquids.

      Barring you being in trouble for calling in,please stay home!!

    3. Rainy*

      If you have diarrhea don’t go to work. If nothing else, you’re going to get nothing done running back and forth to the washroom, and worst case scenario you have time for work and, um, output, but are unable to hydrate and you wind up in the ER with a needle in your arm and a nice nurse shaking their finger at you.

      1. Drax*

        ^^ and if not that severe, there is not much in a work context that is more awkward than looking your boss in the eye and letting them know you need to leave the conversation to use the bathroom right NOW or you will poop right here, not out of spite but it’s happening whether you are in the bathroom or not.

        I got food poisoning from our Christmas party one year and my boss didn’t believe me and asked me to come in (she assumed it was a hangover as everyone was hungover for days, it was basically a get wasted beyond belief type event). That is one conversation neither of us can ever ever forget. Every time I see her now there’s always that moment as it both occurs to us.

  68. Not Maeby But Surely*

    Does anyone have any experience with Sync Scripts as a side hustle? I’m trying to find some ways to make extra cash that preferably can be done online from home. This is a kind of work that I know I’d be good at. Are there other (reputable) companies that do transcription services?

    1. SaaSyPaaS*

      I did some media transcription several years back for some extra income. I can’t remember what the pay was (maybe $15 – $20 per hour, depending on the project). Just note that when they give you an hourly rate, know that it’s typically per transcribed hour and not per hour of actual work. I just googled the company I did work for, and they don’t seem to be around anymore. It was interesting work, for sure.

  69. matcha123*

    Should I talk down others and complain at work to get along better with coworkers?
    Basically the main person on my team (in my section?), who is not a supervisor, but has been there the longest, complains about any work coming from outside of our department.

    I did not grow up with economic stability, and while there are jobs that I would prefer to pass on(in general, not specifically at my current office), I have done them (without complaint) because paying bills comes first. I feel like my non-complaint stance has put me at odds with this coworker and I’ve been in the dog house for a while because of it and other personality clashes.

    Along with that, in our little section if someone is talking about something on their screen or on a project, it isn’t uncommon for two or three other people to gather around them. Uninvited. I don’t ever do that because it seems so weird to me. If they wanted me to look at what they were laughing at, they’d call me over? Am I weird?

    1. East of Nowhere South of Lost*

      Ewww… i hate office gossip. I used to be that person who gossiped negatively about people because other people around me did it, but you don’t have to do it. You can change the topic to designer winter dog leashes or something more interesting.

      But in general, talking down about other people just makes one look petty. Its better to take the high road in silence or maybe can you say something nice about Jane when they decide Jane is the one to be verbally lynched at the time? Might not work..but at least you won’t be the one taking the low road.

      1. matcha123*

        I will admit that I love to hear gossip, but I also am not interested in passing it along. I try to pass along what I consider “good” gossip…things about coworkers that would hopefully make people see or think about them in a more positive light.
        With that said, I am kind of feeling like if I don’t find some way of joining in, that I will be the target of negative gossip. Which I think I already am.

    2. Asenath*

      I try to commiserate with complainers and then move on quickly. It’s a narrow path to tread, because it’s easy to get dragged down with negativity – at least for me, it is – and I don’t like to do that.

      If I see a small group chatting I join them sometimes but sometimes nod and go past. Again, I’m trying to get a balance between being friendly and not wasting time.

      1. matcha123*

        I can also go negative very quickly, and I know myself well enough to know that what I might consider a jab would probably be considered incredibly mean by others. At the moment I try to nod and look attentive, without contributing anything myself.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      First, being mean isn’t the answer. If they can’t try to be polite and treat other people with respect, that’s on them.

      Second, re the gathering around the screen – if it’s work related, follow suit. If it’s nonwork related, maybe not. But really, it sounds like overall you work with jerks.

      1. matcha123*

        It is work related, but not related specifically to anything I am ever working on. That’s what makes it hard for me. The other people gathering around are usually somewhat working on that project, since they are managers, but I don’t feel comfortable jumping up to peep someone’s screen. I guess it’s a holdover from school when we couldn’t jump up from our seats without a reason.
        I will try and force myself up next time and see what’s up…

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          if you’re not on that project at all, probably not. But if it IS your project or something, make yourself do it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They sound miserable. Like the person we recently had leave.

      Now there’s no stormy little cloud hanging over all of us.

      They’re odd. Not you. You’ll never get along with someone miserable even if you join in, they just double down!

  70. East of Nowhere South of Lost*

    So I recently changed jobs. I keep having second thoughts until i remind myself why i moved:
    1) My day vacillated between sheer panic over some fire that broke out in teapot firing room, and boredom.
    2) Getting literally yelled at in meetings by a certain “senior manager” because things were not done according the Grand Plan of Blue Rose Teapots he kept only in his head. Basically i suggested at one point that we use azure paint instead of blue for the roses, and he went ballistic.
    3) Getting yelled at in meetings by the bubble-head who couldn’t design her way out of a box and usually blamed the system i supported (teapot reports) for all her problems.

    I named names in my exit interview. My boss usually had my back but didn’t defend me when the “senior” manager blamed me for something that wasn’t my fault. He admitted i was right, but nothing was done.

    How long does it take for the sinking feeling that i’m about to be thrown under bus to go away? I still have a moment of panic when someone i don’t know well schedules a one-off meeting with me.

    1. NewNameJustForThisBecause*

      Sympathy. I have seen a correlation between working for an abusive boss/ toxic work situation, and a difficult marriage (just my personal frame of reference here, folks). I read the description of recovery, time to heal, the jumpiness, the bizarre coping mechanisms, over politeness, careful fear… and it is a lot alike. So read up on the healing, on learning (observing, reading) what “normal” is; give yourself peace and grace; check your reactions and responses with someone who is used to dealing with normal. This site is a wonderful resource for learning what healthy is – and is not – in a workplace. I suspect the sinking feelings and “PTSD” kind of responses, may remit in correlation to the length of the severity of the situation… and your healing steps. Hug.

    2. ..Kat..*

      It can take months to years from my personal experience. Is therapy an option? If not, perhaps the latest AAM book can help you by demonstrating what “normal” really looks like.

      Good luck with the new job!

  71. ThatGirl*

    Random funny thing this week.

    We had been told a new team lead was starting Monday and we’d have a pizza lunch to welcome her.

    Around 10 a.m. Monday we found out she hadn’t started after all – HR forgot to tell someone she’d turned the offer down. We still had free pizza for lunch.

    2. WellRed*

      A few years ago we had ordered a cake for two milestone birthdays. neither birthday was in the office that day. We gathered round the cake and at it anyhow.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        We had a big meeting day this week and as there is little time to take a lunch break, a posh sandwich lunch was ordered. At the last minute, some of the external attendees couldn’t make it.

        I am now very popular with the rest of my team, who selflessly polished off all of the leftover cheese sandwiches.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Omg I’m scarred and thought you were going to say she ghosted Day 1. At least that’s just an HR Pizza Whoops, my heart can rest again lol

      1. ThatGirl*

        It was a miscommunication between HR and the hiring manager, while we were all a bit surprised, she didn’t ghost! :)

    4. FuzzFrogs*

      I was dealing with an HR whoops last week, I’m glad yours ended in pizza.

      (Mine ended in the only admission of a mistake HR has ever made. No apology, mind you, but admission of a mistake.

      …After I offered to show them the receipts of their mistake.)

  72. Où est la bibliothèque?*

    I just got the heads up for my first “coaching” session with my boss. Included in the ridiculously extensive homework, I need to come prepared with:
    1) short-term career goals
    2) long-term career goals
    3) how I can use his support and expertise to meet them!

    My real answers would be:
    1) leave
    2) have left long ago
    3) please stop making my job a misery until I can meet #1

    1. East of Nowhere South of Lost*

      The goals thing seems pretty normal to me. He’s asking how he can help you.

      Why do you feel the only way you can meet short term career goals is to ‘leave’?

      1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

        He’s not the one who designed the coaching, though he’s been weirdly enthusiastic about it.

        We’re all seriously underpaid by industry standards, so everybody’s goal is to leave, it’s just a matter of timeline. Turnover is incredible. Boss is waiting out his tuition assistance, and then I’m sure he’ll be out the door.

        He’s nice enough, but completely willing to throw his reports under the bus to keep on C-suite’s good side. There are tangible things he could be doing to help me do my job and not hate coming to it every day, and he might make promises about them, but he’s never actually going to stick up for me, and I’m not sure I can sit through an hour of him assuring me for the umpteenth time that he’s committed to supporting me.

        1. Hmmm...*

          These are normal coaching session/quarterly evaluation questions. Is there a way you can effectively and professionally communicate your dissatisfaction during the coaching session? Maybe bring him a few statistics about industry standard pay scales? Do you have other concerns besides your pay rate?

          1. Hmmm...*

            Also, if during the coaching session he makes commitments to doing certain things to help you, write them down so you have a written record! That way if he makes an empty promise you have something to go back to and show his bosses if nothing changes.

          2. AMT*

            They’re perfectly normal coaching questions, sure, but if these coaching sessions are taking place in a toxic environment with a boss who doesn’t operate by normal managerial standards, it does strike me as a bit useless.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m going to reel you in a bit here.

      You’re hurting because nobody is enthusiastic to be given professional “coaching” unless it’s on their terms. I’m assuming this is you being on a Performance Improvement Plan?

      The reason PIPs fail steadily is the bruising to your ego.

      It sounds like its an insufferable company to work for.

      Smile and play along. Then get yourself out. It’s hard AF.

      Your boss sounds like he’s just playing the game too. He knows it’s obnoxious but it’s his job…he’ll get the same treatment if he doesn’t do this.

      1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

        Quite an assumption. Why would “long-term career goals” be on a PIP…?

        This is definitely something they’re rolling out for everyone, as part of a “we’re introducing this amazing new coaching system you’ll love it!” with a fine-print of “we’re also getting rid of performance-based bonuses.”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You seem very…on edge and confrontational. You really need to relax and get another job because this one is clearly getting to you.

          Long term goals are actually also frequently in a PIP because nobody throws them at you assuming you’ll fail.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Hey, this seems out of line to me. What the OP described sounds like a normal coaching meeting, not a PIP. There’s no reason to think it’s a PIP, but more importantly, please don’t talk to people here this way when they have a different take than you do.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I so understand that! But seriously, those goal meetings usually end up with “and what will you commit to do this year to meet your career goal?” If you go in unprepared and leave it up to your boss to pick a goal and action plan you might get pushed into something you don’t like. If you want to act on your real goals, state a goal that sounds suitable for your current employer and has as an action plan some kind of training or practice that will set you up for a new job.

  73. Ann O*

    I’m 8 months pregnant and my husband just got a new job offer. I’m really nervous but trying to be supportive of whatever he decides to do. My biggest fears are around things like how much time he can take off, losing his FMLA, and how accommodating his new employer would be in those early months. Thankfully, my health insurance is through my job so no worries there. He’s already told the potential new employer that I’m pregnant. They want him to start before I’m due, but they said he could take time off when the baby is born.

    Any advice for other things he should ask for or negotiate if/before he accepts?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Maybe he could ask for a starting bank of PTO? I know that in our first year with babies, someone was always sick. ALWAYS. And if he doesn’t have any PTO or flexibility, those sick day callouts will likely fall to you. This can have a disparate impact on your current job, so it’s worth discussing with your husband and possibly him discussing with the new job.

      1. Ann O*

        Good idea, thanks. I’m used to PTO plans that accrue over time, which can be tough on new employees.

        1. valentine*

          Does he have to change jobs now? Can he wait until the baby’s six months old?

          Get the paternal leave in writing.

    2. 867-5309*

      He should get an email confirmation (“in writing”) of what it means to take time off – paid, unpaid, for how long.

  74. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

    So, I’m not sure how to phrase this and stay anonymous, but here goes. I left my isolated home state to attend graduate school and pursue an academic job in librarianship. I’ve been moderately successful, but jobs in my home are few and far between.

    I am now a finalist for a position in my hometown that would be split between the special collections academic work for which I am trained and public librarian work for which I have not done since shortly after college. The job would be a promotion in responsibility, but a pay cut if one considers cost of living which is very high. However, it would put me in the same town as my brother and his family for the first time in two decades and would put me much closer to my parents who are getting older. Given the states current economic climate, another job in my field might not open for a long time.

    My question is: Have people successfully (or totally unsuccessfully) transitioned from specialized academic librarianship to more general public librarianship. What did you enjoy? What did you struggle with?

    Additionally, has anyone moved home for a less than ideal job and then regretted it? Was it a good move? A poor move? I’m just trying to see if anyone has any experience in this or advice they could offer.

    1. Middle Manager*

      Not a librarian, so can’t comment on that piece. I did job hunt and then move back to my home state after several years far away. I don’t regret that, even though I loved the distant state. A very close family member got sick and died a few months after I moved back and it was such as gift to me that I got to be near them those last few months.

      I’m actually thinking about doing it again. I’m on the other end of my home state, still a few hours from my family. I recently found out I’m going to be an Aunt! I’m thinking about moving closer. There is a job open in my agency that is technically a promotion, but practically speaking, moving out of our central office would be a step back in career and probably reduce my long term promotion options substantially. Not sure if I’m going to apply. I’ll be curious to see what other people say here.

    2. Call of Dewey*

      I’ve done the opposite library wise- moved from a public library to an academic. One major difference I’ve noticed is that public libraries are much busier! You’re working with a much broader demographic, including homeless patrons, children, senior citizens, and everything in between, so you have to be a lot more versatile in the type of questions you answer and how you tailor them to each patron. I love the slower pace about my academic library, but I do miss the diversity of public libraries. It’s a lot more emotional labor, but when you work with the public, you get the chance to directly touch a lot of lives in a huge range of ways, from helping someone build a resume to picking out the book that gets a kid to love reading. So while I’m not cut out for public librarianship, it can be incredibly rewarding if you can take on the emotional labor and busy atmosphere. I’d say just make sure you can handle constant interaction with the public for an 8 hour day. Also keep in mind that your schedule may be a bit more varied- not all, but many public libraries have more night and weekend expectations of staff. Good luck!

  75. Nervous and Isolated*

    I may try to do this later with more info as a letter proper, but just because it’s bugging me again…

    Is it weird or off that my supervisor goes to lunch/on breaks with the entire rest of the department except for me? Granted, that “rest of the department” is just two people, and one of them doesn’t like me, but that’s kind of part of the problem? Even when the one who doesn’t like me was recently out for two weeks, I could still hear her go up to the other person and ask if they were ready for lunch almost every day.

    I’m never invited to lunch with them, or to go on breaks with them.

    There’s kind of a lot of extra drama, but just that one thing in particular…is it just me, or is that really weird? Because it feels incredibly hostile and isolating. Like, she knows there’s bad blood between me and the other one, and this is so very clearly choosing sides. (But even if she didn’t know, it still seems…really inappropriate for a supervisor to go to lunch/on breaks with everyone in their department except for one person?)

    It’s been going on for almost a year now, and I don’t know how to say anything, or if I even should

    1. fposte*

      If she never goes to lunch with you, then that’s not appropriate. She’s probably not going to stop going to lunch with her reports, though, so do you want to join them on lunch, or have a chance to have lunch with her yourself? Have you asked about it? Because if you want to do something, that’s the likeliest thing to do. I’d also try to keep clear in my mind the difference between “I want a chance to connect with my manager” (valid work intention) and “I want to try to break up a pattern that leaves me an outsider” (not really a work thing).

    2. Val Zephyr*

      Do you get the impression that she purposely excludes you or do you think she doesn’t realize that you want to be invited? Either way is crappy; she shouldn’t be socializing with some direct reports and not others, but if you think she just doesn’t realize you want to be invited, you could start inviting her.

    3. Hmmm...*

      Yeah that’s not cool. Has she had to mediate between the two of you and is still going to lunch with her? I would bring this up with HR. A similar situation happened at my job, basically two co-workers didn’t get along, and another co-worker got along with both of them but went on walks during lunch with one every day, so the other got jealous. Now we all have designated lunch hours that are different from each other so no gets to eat together unless we all go to lunch together. I think that’s the most fair way to do it. Plus, now we organize a monthly department lunch and rotate who picks where we go.

      1. fposte*

        That’s a workplace-dependent thing, I think. A lot of HRs aren’t going to mediate in “she likes the person who doesn’t like me,” and the response there seems unusually granular.

        1. Reba*

          I agree, that sounds like a heavy handed, grade-school “if you can’t behave we’re going to separate you” response!

          It’s definitely wrong that the manager excludes Nervous & Isolated (no wonder you chose the name) but I can’t imagine HR trying to forcibly schedule everyone’s lunches would actually improve the relationship.

      2. Nervous and Isolated*

        Unfortunately, HR has been less than helpful with me the one time I went to them (really, was sent to them) regarding the issues between myself and my coworker. (In reality, I’d just asked for an HR person to be present at a meeting my supervisor wanted to have with the two of us regarding our issues, because–I didn’t say it at the time–all the socializing with the rest of the department makes it clear that they’re Friends, and also because there’s no record of the coworker’s previous treatment of me. The boss called and told HR I wanted to come in and complain.) The person I saw laughed and said I should see how hostile a work environment the army is, because that was where he used to be. :/

        I don’t really like the Problem Coworker, but I’d be more than fine with us doing lunch as a department on occasion.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Yeah, I think it’s unfair. Either she should do lunch with all her reports or each of you one-on-one. To be uneven like this gives the appearance of favoritism.

    6. Pear*

      Do you want to go to lunch with them if they asked? Is it worth asking Supervisor “hey, can I join you and the team at lunch/break? I’d like to get to know all of you a little better”?

      But personally, I am always thinking, “What is the end goal for me here?”

      My reaction is colored by the fact that I personally wouldn’t want to be going anywhere accompanied by someone who I don’t like/who I perceive does not like me. Even if that person wasn’t around to go to lunch, Supervisor may feel a closer relationship with the other team member.

      And also I need a lot of down time and I would feel like I had to be “on” at lunch with them.

      Your reasoning may vary.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Even if OP doesn’t want to go to lunch or on breaks with them, the fact that the manager is doing this is a very bad sign for OP and their future at this job. Also, a sign that the manager sucks.

        1. Nervous and Isolated*

          Yeah, it’s troubling. I don’t know that she “sucks.” This is just her first time being a manager, and Coworker is VERY manipulative. When she wants to be your friend she’s very good at making everyone who doesn’t like her and who she doesn’t like seem Bad and Unreasonable.

      2. Nervous and Isolated*

        I mean, on a “would this be fun/pleasant for me” level, no I don’t really want to go to lunch with all of them. And my Supervisor knows about our issues, so I feel like asking to go would seem…weird? Like inviting myself along. But if I was invited, I would go.

        I very much don’t like being around people who don’t like me. Way before Supervisor came on, coworker and I were on good terms for a while, then she started to freeze me out. When I asked her about it, she said (in that sinister-sweet way) that I was always welcome to come to lunch with them (they just, y’know, never stopped by to ask anymore). I took them up on that once or twice and it was extremely uncomfortable.

        But I’d do it with Supervisor around to try and foster a better relationship.

        My end goal is really not to be isolated and to do some damage control. I know for a fact that my coworker likes to spread poison, because I remember her doing it back when I would eat lunch with her. I’d rather not be an outsider or a Problem to my Supervisor’s mind.

  76. what the elle*

    I would appreciate advice from folks in academia… I am about to finish up my PhD in April. I currently have a full-time research associate position and I will be starting a 2-year post-doc in the fall. Looking at the long term, I know the next step for most people would be to apply to tenure-track Assistant Professor positions. However, I really do not want to teach – it makes me miserable. I am a strong early career researcher with a good (and growing) publication record. I will also hopefully be a co-PI on a major grant during my post-doc. So, what kinds of positions would you suggest I look for after the post-doc? If it’s relevant, my work falls under the broad umbrella of education research and it’s entirely quantitative. Also, I am in the U.S.

    1. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      Frankly, I think you might be a in a tough spot. I have never seen a pure research position in the education field at a University. I have seen them in the hard sciences. Is there maybe a private foundation or something you could look towards?

      1. what the elle*

        Thanks! I should look into foundations. I had not considered that as an option.

    2. DriverB*

      Would you consider a large education research agency? I work for one and we are frequently looking for quantitative specialists (have an opening for one right now actually). I’ve also worked for a smaller ed research consultancy. Happy to talk with you more offline.

      1. what the elle*

        Thank you – this is very helpful! I’d love to learn more about organizations like yours and whether they look for certain research areas or skill sets. Would you be willing to connect via email?

    3. lisalee*

      I work in the education research/education policy field and we have a lot of jobs that involve almost pure research, though it is more consulting-like/short-term than what I would consider long-term academic research. The downside is that these companies are pretty limited to a few cities–I can only think of companies in DC, NYC, and Chicago. My particular company snaps up PhDs, though.

      You might also have luck looking into the nonprofit world if you are at all interested in something like a program development role. I also know a few people who work for the federal government doing education research, though the pay is not as good.

      1. what the elle*

        Thank you! Would you mind sharing some names of the DC/NYC/Chicago companies that you’re referring to? I want to make sure they are on my radar.

        1. lisalee*

          Sure! Off the top of my head there’s EAB in DC which is a combo tech/research firm, and Huron in Chicago and BCG in Bethesda which are more traditional consulting. There’s also several think tanks, like the Aspen Institute.

          1. lisalee*

            I’m also happy to connect offline if you want more specific information on the company I work at (which is a research firm but not traditional consulting).

            1. what the elle*

              Thanks so much! This list is very helpful. I would definitely like to learn more about your company. What would be a good way to contact you?

              1. lisalee*

                You can shoot me an email at lisaleeaam at outlook dot com (throwaway email in case of spam, in case anyone is worried on my behalf).

    4. Rainy*

      Education policy research is a possibility. You could probably also take another research-only postdoc after this one if you want to keep the door to academia open.

      If you do a lot of quant stuff you could probably move into data science after this.

      1. what the elle*

        Thanks! Folks in my field usually do only two years of post doc work, but I would definitely be open to more.

    5. Middle Manager*

      Might want to look at government Departments of Education (state or federal).

    6. twig*

      What about higher ed administration?

      I work at a state university and many of the administrative faculty are PhD’s.

    7. Almost Academic*

      If your quant background includes a solid amount of psychometrics and measurement design, you could apply to testing companies. They do a lot of research and hire many folks with strong education and statistics backgrounds. Take a look at Pearson, College Board, ETS, also the government commonly has positions. I would also suggest reaching out to your academic network and the higher ed boards to see what others have done with their degrees when they were ready to make the leap from academia.

  77. Loux in Canada*

    So I work in an office that is part open-office, part cube farm. (There are random rows of cubicles, then there are some “quads”, which is two people basically sitting together, facing two other people sitting together, in an open-office style.) I sit in one of the quads, for context.

    Anyways, I get told at least once a week that I need to lower my voice. This is a problem I’ve had all my life – it runs in the family – I get excited about something (work-related, I promise!), and then my voice gradually rises in pitch until *everyone* can hear it. How can I work on this? Because I certainly don’t mean to be that loud, it just… happens. Anyone have the same problem and fix it? How did you do it?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Can you stick a post-it on your monitor or somewhere in your line of sight that just says “Shh!” as kind of a visual cue to remind yourself?

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      Is there someone you’re particularly close to that could help give you the feedback in the moment? I’m thinking like a work friend who can give you some sort of signal. That won’t work 100% of the time, but it can be a good first step.

      It’s likely going to take time being hyper sensitive to it on your end before it becomes natural to be quieter.

      1. Lilith*

        Do you have access to a speech pathologist through a university or school? Maybe 4/5 sessions with her would help.

    3. NotAMadScientist*

      Most computers have a microphone and sound app. We used one on our work computers to get management to understand the noise we were complaining about was not normal building noises but actually 80 dB. Could you leave something like that open and periodically check what you are at?

    4. foolofgrace*

      How about putting a rubber band around your wrist? Especially if you developed a nervous habit of snapping it, it would remind you to lower the volume.

      1. valentine*

        Ouch. No. Put your hand near your throat while speaking at your various volumes and note what it feels like when you are headed for loudness. You may feel or be thought to look odd with your hand there, but that’s better than being told to shut up.

  78. A Question*

    I’m looking to transition a little in my job, and I found one that’s similar to mine. It is at a university, and says the minimum qualifications are to have a degree that is in a related field, and that you must have experience at the collegiate level.

    I have the experience they’re asking for, but not at the collegiate level, and my degree is in a totally different field- I got sidetracked during the recession. I know that for higher ed jobs you’re supposed to have 100% of the qualifications to apply. Should I bother?

    1. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      What do you lose applying? An hour or two? Go for it! I mean, I think academic jobs it really depends on the job and how you can show related experience. Yes, if you want to be a Biology Professor than you better have a PhD in something Biology related. If you want to work in the more admin side, it is much less strict in my observation.

    3. Anonymust*

      I applied for a uni job without having the correct degree, but similar experience. Process is ongoing but I am still in the running.

    4. Reba*

      what is this rule that you are “supposed to” be 100% on the job requirements? Because of screening? Higher ed hiring has its weirdnesses but it’s definitely not uniform across the sector in how they hire.

  79. PhoebeBuffay*

    I think this counts as work related, even though it’s not my work (sorry if it doesn’t)…but today being March 1st and us skipping February 29th, I’ve found myself thinking of the poor employee whose birthday isn’t getting celebrated this year because her boss thinks it just didn’t happen. Happy Birthday, Leap Day employee, wherever you are!

    1. valentine*

      She actually is covered by the policy. As the office is not open on February 29 in years it’s not on the calendar, she should be taking the next working day off.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        That’s not how the manager saw it. If there is no February 29th in a given year then the employee didn’t have a birthday and got no time off, I believe.

  80. Kate R. Pillar*

    LinkedIn Learning: My company is giving us access for the next six months and I am a little overwhelmed at the possibilities – and at the same time already tried out a few courses that I was not as impressed by.
    Anyone have recommendations for courses they found worthwhile?
    Especially in the “personal development/soft skills” realm?
    I am an attorney in the legal department of a manufacturing company.
    Thank you!

    1. SaaSyPaaS*

      LinkedIn Learning has been kind of hit or miss for me. There’s a lot out there for my industry, and it can definitely be overwhelming. I wish there was a way to rate the courses because that would save some time figuring out if something is a waste of time or not. When I find something useful, it’s well worth the subscription (I pay for it myself). For me, I’ve had the most success in narrowing my topic, previewing a few relevant courses, and then deciding if I want to continue on their course. When I find an instructor I like, I’ll look through their other courses. There is some great content out there on LinkedIn Learning, I just wish it was a bit easier to sift through.

      1. Kate R. Pillar*

        Thank you! Yes, I also would have liked to see some sort of rating system for their content.
        Do you remember any instructors that you would recommend?

  81. SophieChotek*

    TLDR – recs for cloud storage? how does it work? (never done this)

    Yesterdays question about back-up data make me think “we need to do this.”

    I do (try) to remember to back-up all my work files (and my personal files) to external hard drives
    But if there was a fire or something, that would destroy everything so that would be pointless
    So really my physical back-ups are really only worth somethng, I guess, if my work laptop got stolen or something

    I work for a company that nickles and dimes us; a $10 expense freaks them out

    But I am starting to think that remote storage/cloud is something we should seriously consider
    I know Google Drive offers some free storae, but it would be a pain to have to make who-knows-how-many free accounts to back everything up
    I’ve always been worried about keeping secure documents with sensitive information in a”cloud” in case it gets hacked, whereas with a physical external hard-drive I know it’s just there, but I digress

    What are some good options for cloud storage? How is the pricing structure?
    Not sure how much storage we would need….a few TB for sure, but not tons and tons and tons, I don’t think.
    Also once you get it, do you have to manually transfer things to the storage every time you update a file or create a new one? Or does the storage see “oh that file is new/updated since the last time”?

    1. KR*

      This is really something your company IT should look at if you have it to make sure it is implemented across the board. A cloud account like Google drive would be helpful and shouldn’t run you a lot of money, but then you have to have a company Google account and it could cause access issues for backup. Can you look into a remote server ( IT people please chime in on what this is called it’s been a few since I worked in IT ). Basically you pay a company to maintain a remote server for you, everyone can map it to their computers and drag/drop as needed, and everything is maintained off site. Usually these types of places have extensive measures in place to protect against hacking and power failures and fires and flooding so your data is backed up and could be anywhere in the world. I know it’s pricy but it’s worth it to avoid lost data. It might work to sell it like an insurance policy.

    2. SaaSyPaaS*

      You’re definitely going to want to run this by your IT department. Many industries have strict security requirements, and you don’t want to inadvertently violate those requirements. I would probably just ask your IT department for suggestions or ask them if they’ve ever considered cloud options. There’s a lot out there, but the choice that’s right for your organization is something that your IT department will need to research.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      The usual rule for backups is the 3-2-1 rule. At least 3 copies of your data, stored on two different media, with at least one off site.

      There are definitely options that do automatic backups – generally, the software compares the current data and the most recent backup and only saves the difference between them and keeps a record of changes – this is a lot more efficient than copying everything. There is also software that will encrypt your backups so that it’s harder to hack. Keep in mind that if a physical hard disk is connected to a computer that is connected to the internet, it can also be hacked.

      The actual cloud space isn’t that expensive, but you’ll need to buy significantly more than the actual space of the data you’re backing up, so it can handle changes to the data over a period of time. And your company will need to get a license for the software itself.

      This is definitely something your company should be doing at the top level, though. A cobbled together version with individual Google accounts would be a mess to maintain. Also, those accounts would belong to the employees, not the company, so your backups wouldn’t stop a disgruntled employee from wiping their files (like in the post the other day).

  82. Worried About Old Boss*

    TL;DR. I have a manager in my past who dislikes me and has lied to people about me. HR hasn’t done their job and told him to stop violating the no reference policy. Aside from an expensive, years long legal battle, what oprions do I have?
    Background: a couple years back, my boss (Peter) left to transfer to another department. Since it was inthe same company, he had an extended notifce/transition period, and a college friend of his (Paul) was hired to take over his old job.
    From the start, Paul never liked me, and he abused the process to make a paper trail to use to fire me. He would do things like set up meetings but not invite me, then write me up for not coming. When I went to HR about these incidents, they would always side with Paul. He’d say something like “I told Nick verbally,” and HR would uphold the write-up. He started reassigning my work to other people, then wrote me up for being unproductive. Looking back, I think I should’ve made a discrimination complaint against him, since he was an outspoken atheist, and I brought up that I was raised Catholic at a company happy hour once. Ever since then, Paul would antagonize me about religion at work lunches and similar things. But hindsight is 20/20.
    Within six months he put me on a formal PIP, and I left for a new job a few weeks before it ended. So I resigned, and wasn’t let go. The Work Number just says that I was “terminated” IIRC, but I think that’s a catch all term. I have a copy of my resignation and severance agreement.
    Last year I was jobhunting again. One place silently rejected me at the reference checking stage. Another told me they were given a bad reference (specifically, it was that someone at an old company said I was fired) over the phone, but wouldn’t respond to an email asking for confirmation on that. I reached out to my old boss, Peter, on his personal email, asking if he’d be okay with serving as a reference for me. He said he felt “uncomfortable” doing that. I reached out to HR at my old company, and said I’d been told that Paul had told companies I was interviewing with that I’d been fired. They basically stonewalled me and disbelieved my claims. What they said was literally “Paul is a manager in good standing, and there isn’t any reason he would violate our no references policy.”
    I did find a new job, and I’m very happy here. But recently, I got few separate LinkedIn notifications that Paul had viewed my profile. So now I’m worried that Paul might try to interfere with my career again. I followed Allison’s advice and got a manager friend to contact Paul asking if he could give me a reference, but Paul never responded. My boss here thinks I’m great, but I’m worried Paul might try to interfere with my job. What options do I have to get him to go away?

    1. fposte*

      It’s pretty hard for an old boss to have an impact on a job you’re actually in, and right now he’s not doing anything you really can tell him to stop doing. You could consider getting a lawyer to write a cease and desist letter if he does start to talk to your current job about you–be aware those don’t really have any legal weight, though, so it’s mostly just a formal “knock it off” notification.

      It sucks that you ended up with no ability to use your old company as a reference, but it sounds like you’ve found a job that you like, and if that continues to go well Paul will matter less and less.

    2. Nacho*

      Some times it’s enough to just have a lawyer send a cease and deist without actually entering into a prolonged legal battle.

    3. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Would it be worth having a friend test him out, and pretend to be calling for a reference to see what he does? Even better if they can convince him they only accept references in writing and you have an actual record of his behavior to show his HR or a lawyer.

      1. fposte*

        Worried did that and the old boss didn’t respond.

        Honestly, I think as long as Paul isn’t asked for a reference he’s not likely to be an issue. She’s been at the new job for a bit and he hasn’t done anything, and it’s been a year and a half since she stopped working for him.

        1. Worried About Old Boss*

          The friend I asked is in my network on LinkedIn. He and I have never worked together, but Paul might have seen that somehow, even though I’m not connected to Paul on LinkedIn. Or he might have gotten worried and backed off. Or HR might have had a second thought after our phone call, and given him a warning to not talk to anyone about me. Or a million other things.

          TBH I don’t think Paul could plant any lies with my current company that would get me in trouble, but he is nursing a weird grudge against me and I would love to get him to definitively Go Away for good.

    4. foolofgrace*

      If the company policy is for managers not to give reference information, don’t use him as a reference; just put down HR’s number. Bypass him altogether. That was the case at a former job of mine. Managers weren’t supposed to give out info, so I didn’t put down any manager’s name and phone number.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How slimey.

      How long were you at that company, how far removed are you at this point?? It seems like you’re in a setup where your boss likes you and you’ll be there for awhile hopefully! When it’s time to move on again, leave it off the resume or at very least do not give them anything but HR’s contact information.

      I’m so grossed out that HR is all “He’s totes awesome and you cray” nonsense. That’s some Cat’s Paw theory stuff that they’re engaging in and it’s illegal if they ever get sued.

      1. Worried About Old Boss*

        I was there for three and a half years, and it’s been two years since I left.

        Paul keeps falling upward and now runs the entire department I worked in, where I was his direct report. I have that department’s name on my LinkedIn and so does he. That’s probably the way that the companies that passed on me found him.

        Two options I have include removing the department’s name from my LinkedIn profile and resume and hoping that it isn’t written down if I mention it in an interview. The second is to use Alison’s advice from a few years back: “explain to the employer that you and your boss didn’t see eye-to-eye and/or that your relationship went from strong to strained by the time you left, but that you have lots of other references from that company and others who will give you glowing reviews.” I don’t have anyone from that company (I’d love to know what Paul has said to Peter, though, since Peter and I got along very well) but I have plenty of people from other companies who would speak honestly about me.

    6. WellRed*

      Agree with others on the cease and desist letter. Also, lock down any social media from him.

  83. what to do?*

    I am going to probably sound like a heartless jerk in this post.

    Remember the post about the guy with cancer a couple weeks ago? Well we’ve been living that with my boss for the past year. When I was promoted last year, my new boss was on disability and honestly none of us expected her to come back from it because she has cancer throughout her body. I was hired by the executive director (her boss). I knew before taking the position that she was difficult to deal even when she’s not sick as I had worked with her before.

    However, now that she’s still extremely ill, going through more rounds of chemo, and has terrible side effects in her body that she’ll tell us about but I don’t want to repeat here, she has become somewhat nasty to people, very demanding, giving us arbitrary deadlines without checking what other work we have, and even more difficult to understand.

    She’s been with the company 40-50 years and is approaching 70 so she could retire (as her family and friends have urged), but she doesn’t want to because she feels guilty leaving us. She’s only been in the office half a day in the past 3 weeks. The rest of the time she works remotely, but is not very responsive. Usually this is not a problem because we all work fairly independently in serving our internal clients who are serving external clients, but when we have questions, we need her to answer. She gets upset if we go directly to our ED, even though he has told us we can always come to him. Projects have been put off for months because she keeps rescheduling the meetings, my training on her programs is haphazard, and her emails and instructions are often confusing. That’s all understandable since I know she’s in a tremendous amount of pain and on pain medication.

    I am grateful that my company has been so understanding with her and I pray she experiences a miracle, but all of us in the group also wish she would retire and spend her remaining time with her family. It’s stressful wondering if we’ll get a response from her or if we don’t see her online, wondering if she died. (I know this does not compare to the stress she and her family are under). I know that the chaos is also taking a toll on the team and it often results in confusion on who is doing what and makes our department look terrible to our internal and external clients.

    Do you have any tips for working under this situation?

    1. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      I think Alison has suggested in the past that you make this about the work, not about the person. Can you go to the ED and say, “We are struggling to get X done, because Y. How should we proceed?”

      This is such an awful situation for everyone.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, this is my nightmare, on both sides.

      I think you go to the ED, and this might even be a go-as-a-group thing. “We know the situation with Jane, and we are so appreciative that the company is supporting her. There are some situations that Jane is understandably struggling with, and we’d like to find some kind workarounds and backstops for. Can you help with this?”

    3. MissDisplaced*

      This is really a horrible situation for everyone involved. I see where you’re coming from and why you’d feel she should just retire, but there might be real reasons why she can’t, such as insurance coverage. If that is the case, it would be helpful if the management could maybe move her to a less day-to-day involved role that still allows her to stay on.
      I think your best bet is approach management and keep it about the work as Anon Librarian states.
      And this isn’t your fault! Really, your ED needs to step up here and manage a difficult and ambiguous situation.

    4. Nacho*

      Have you tried bringing your concerns to her boss, or anybody else in a position to do something about her? It sucks that she has cancer, but if she’s pushing 70, that’s usually long past the time even healthy people would have retired. Somebody should be working to transition her out of the company so she can focus more on her treatment and you can get an actual boss.

      1. what to do?*

        I did go to my ED and he said he cannot do anything unless she drops the ball on something big. We haven’t had anything big come through although she almost missed an RFP deadline.

        1. Reba*

          OK, that reasoning by your ED makes no sense.

          I can’t intervene to prevent something catastrophic happening, only react after it does??? Daily issues and slipping deadlines mean nothing?

          Do you think you could try another conversation and somehow quantify the lost time and added chaos and how that’s affecting work?

        2. WellRed*

          I guess keep punting it to the ED every time something crops up. Also, it sounds like you are in a position to discuss the morale impact of all rhe chaos if you haven’t yet done so. If he still won’t address the bigger issue, get a budget for pizza or something. A small thing, but sometimes it helps.

          1. valentine*

            Yes, sit down with the ED and tell him about the chaos and that you need more structure. Is he not able to shift her work to something more independent?

            And tell her no more TMI or leave or exit the chat.

    5. Not A Manager*

      “She gets upset if we go directly to our ED, even though he has told us we can always come to him. Projects have been put off for months because she keeps rescheduling the meetings, my training on her programs is haphazard, and her emails and instructions are often confusing.”

      At this point, I would treat your ED as if he were your boss. Ask him clarifying questions, ask him to set agendas, ask him for direction, etc. Just make him your default boss. If she complains, say “I couldn’t reach you and ED told us to come to him.” If he complains, ask him how else he’d like you to address these issues.

    6. WS*

      I’m a cancer survivor, and I honestly can’t remember huge periods of time while I was sick, and have no idea what I was doing. You cannot rely on your boss to be present or capable at any given time, and your ED is doing nobody any favours by keeping her in the chain of command and expecting actual work from her at this time.

      Your boss is going to get upset no matter what you do – because she is sick, in pain, undergoing difficult medical treatment and unable to think straight – so you need to stop trying to be kind and trying to manage her feelings at the cost of your work. Pretend she’s not there at all and go straight to the ED each time (if you’d prefer, contact her, give it 24 hours, then go to the ED, but make this a standard procedure.)

  84. Murphy*

    I asked a question last week about following up on an internal to an internal job (university) that I applied to a few weeks ago. Thanks everyone for the advice. I did not follow up. The anticipated closing date was three weeks ago, but it’s still open. According to the application status in the system, my application isn’t yet under review, it just says “submitted.” (I don’t know enough about the system to know if they could actually be reviewing applications and the system wouldn’t reflect that.)

    Yesterday, a newsletter went out that had an update from that group saying that they’re hiring for [job I applied to], that they may fill another position in addition to that one, and that they’re hoping to be fully staffed and trained in the next 6 months. I’m really confused about what that update means for their timeline for hiring and my application specifically, since I’m not sure if they even looked at it yet. I know I should be patient, but this waiting is the worst…

    1. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      They may (if they are like my school) need a minimum pool of applicants. So, we often leave jobs open for several more weeks to try to hit our minimum hiring number. Right now, the best thing you can do is assume you didn’t get the job and move on. Really. I know it’s hard, but you have to or you’ll go nuts.

    2. Eukomos*

      Do you know anything about the department/program you’re applying to? I ended up having to follow up to find out I’d been hired to my current university job, and usually I wouldn’t have done that in a uni structure but my program is notoriously understaffed and disorganized so it seemed plausible they’d forgotten to make a decision or email me. Ask around, see if you know anyone who knows people in that program and if they can give you a sense of what the workflow is like over there and make a decision from there. The incestuous, gossipy nature of universities has very few benefits, might as well take advantage of the ones we get.

  85. LinkedIn Question - should I worry?*

    Question for folks who are good at LinkedIn.

    I have my profile set to “on” for recruiters, just to see what’s out there, but I’m not actively looking. My boss and I talked about how one of my personal development goals for this year is to network more and get involved in professional organizations, mentoring, etc. Being active on LinkedIn is a part of that plan.

    For the past two months, every time I get the “you appeared in X searches this week” e-mail, it shows my company searching for my job title. There are only two people at my company who do what I do (me and my boss). I would know if our team was hiring, and I haven’t heard anything.

    Does this seem like a red flag? My boss says she is happy with my work, and I’ve never been on a PIP or anything like that.

    1. Frustrated S.O.*

      Did you actually SEE the job posting from your company?
      Some of this is generated by LI.

      Are you certain the other person didn’t give notice?

      1. LinkedIn Question - should I worry?*

        There is no job posting on my company’s website. We have screamed and fought for more bodies for years, and been denied at every turn. A change would have been communicated to me quickly and joyfully. And my boss definitely did not give notice. So, my paranoia concludes that the only option is stealth-replacing me.

    2. Red Lipstick and a Book*

      I get the same message from LinkedIn.
      “Someone from [current company] found you when they searched for [my job title] [current company]”, or along these lines. I find this strange because we are not recruiting for my position or dpt (have been recently promoted and we have onboarded new people on my team and it is now complete).
      Of course I cannot say for sure but my case demonstrates that this can happen without your company looking into replacing you.
      There are many things I don’t understand about LinkedIn and this is one of them…

    3. Mill Miker*

      At one of my previous jobs, it was pretty common to show up in searches because some of the sales people would be writing pitches, which would usually include bios of the team that would be working on the project, so they’d want to double-check years of experience and whatnot, along with making sure the profile would be presentable if the potential client searched it as well.

  86. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

    Thoughts on automated phone interviews?

    I applied for a job on indeed for Habitat for Humanity – immediately after submitting, I got an email saying I had a phone interview (this was at night – even if it wasn’t, it wasn’t enough time for someone to even glance at my resume or cover letter), which was an automated 5 – 10 minute thing in which there were five questions. I would have my answers recorded and sent to the hiring manager. I dunno, it rubbed me the wrong way.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I did something like that with a video service. It was the most awkward thing ever. I’m not a huge fan of those. I don’t really mind when they ask for an emailed response, but the automated phone/video interviews seem really impersonal to me.

    2. Karen from Finance*

      Ugh. I didn’t know this was a thing. Ew. I hate it.

      I hate the direction some recruitment practices are taking, where it’s increasingly dehumanizing.

  87. Frustrated S.O.*

    I feel stressed today because my S.O. is probably working to get himself fired. He failed a certification test, and has just had a miserable attitude since then. Some of it is warranted. His company requires that the employees pay for a lot of things out of their own pocket up-front (travel, use of personal car, parking, tolls, etc.). While they do eventually get reimbursed, it can take 3-4 weeks. They do not get company credit cards to use for this purpose, so the employee is expected to use their own funds, so it essentially means he’s broke nearly all the time. He’s also been saddled with bad manager, who didn’t get him trained properly in the first 6 months, so he feels behind.
    I get this experience is all frustrating for him, but I’m just mad that this is yet another job he seems determined to get fired from without finding another job first.

    1. Not A Manager*

      “This is yet another job he seems determined to get fired from.”

      Your S.O. is probably never going to change. If you knew that things would be exactly the same in five years, what would you do now?

    2. anonresponse*

      Your S.O. sounds like my husband a few years ago. I’m unsure how you’re doing overall, so I’ll just leave some advice, and hopefully it helps. You are not alone!
      1) Step back from giving any advice about his job. If he describes something that he did at work, or how he handled a work situation, or how he feels about something his boss did, do not offer advice. Say something like “that sounds frustrating”. If he wants a job coach, he can hire one. You don’t have to be it.
      2) Control buckets are your friend. If you put everything that’s in your control inside of a bucket, what would be in there? Answer: only you. He is not in your bucket. So, give yourself permission to not be in control of whether he fails a certification test, whether he has a miserable attitude, whether he gets fired, whether he gets another job, the list goes on and on. None of these things are a reflection on you.
      3) Think about what you need from a partner. Ask questions like, Do we rely on his salary to make ends meet? Could I support myself if he didn’t make any money? (If no, what changes can I make to bring in a better salary and be more financially stable, independent of his job prospects?) How would I feel if he always worked entry-level jobs? Am I willing to be with a partner who does that? There is no right answer to any of this–change financial or living expectations, stay or don’t stay together. You have lots of choices, and once you think about what you want, you can make a plan from there to achieve it. If you can, it may also be helpful to talk to either a counselor on your own or a marriage counselor together. You mention being mad about this job stuff-mad isn’t wrong, but if you want to stay together, you’ll want to work through that in a healthy way instead of it exploding out.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      Dating guys who want to get fired does not end well if you want to have the relationship progress. You can never count on his income for anything.

    4. Frustrated S.O.*

      I think I’m mostly stressed over his stress!
      Luckily, I have a good job and can take of myself financially, so no, I don’t depend on his income directly, but it still creates a strain because then I have to carry all of the weight as opposed to most of the weight.
      We’ve both had our share of shitty jobs over the years, but here’s the difference: I stick it out until I find another job! I can’t afford not to. He either quits without lining up another job, or pushes to get fired so he can get unemployment and then basically sits doing nothing until he has to find another job when the unemployment runs out. I’m afraid his pattern of doing this will catch up to him and he’ll be pretty much unemployable. It’s kind of horrifying to contemplate. It didn’t used to be that way for him, but I just see this sort of downward spiral career-wise for him and he’s never recovered from particular layoff some years back. He’s like those guys you read about who used to have decent, well paying jobs in manufacturing, but those jobs have gone away and aren’t coming back. Suddenly they’re 55 and at Walmart.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Probably the best thing is to let go of your end as much as you can. This is what’s he’s like, and he’s unlikely to change (and if he does, it will because he wants to, not because you’re pushing him).

        Enjoy his company, listen to a little bit of his work complaining, but only a little – don’t be the dumping ground for his vents and his bad attitude. And don’t entangle yourself with him financially – no big joint purchases or kids, and keep your living arrangements separately – so you don’t get dragged down with him. Or, be okay (really okay, cheerfully okay, not just enduring) with supporting him indefinitely.

        I think you’re right that he’s digging a big hole for himself. He’s got a spotty work history, has been repeatedly fired, has had long spells of unemployement, and by the sounds of it is unlikely to have useful references. So when he does look for a job, good employers are going to look at his resume and pass on it. As a result, he’s going to be getting the jobs where they’re bad at hiring, don’t check references, and are mostly after warm bodies, which leads to him having dysfunctional jobs.

      2. ..Kat..*

        His actions are not the actions of a reliable person with a good future. Do you live together and share finances? Do you really want a future with this guy?

        I recommend untangling yourself from him and moving on.

        1. valentine*

          Don’t support him financially. If he’s 55 and at Walmart, are you down with that? What do you need to do now, not just to avoid that, but to take a path that would make him a good partner for your family’s financial health? If he won’t start right now, today, is being alone better than this? It at least frees you up for someone who takes financial health seriously.

  88. Guacamole Bob*

    How do other people manage to coordinate workday schedules with their spouses? We’ve had a few things recently (kid school conferences, etc.) where one person is scheduling for both, and it’s a pain to figure out times we’re both available because we can’t see each other’s work calendars. Anyone found a good way to deal with this? Send screenshots of the next few weeks in Outlook from one to the other?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      My boyfriend and I don’t have kids, but we have quite a few pets and a couple times we’ve ran into times that we had both planned on being out of town without the other one knowing. So we bought a large hanging wall calendar that’s basically the first thing you see when you walk into our main room. We both have an assigned color and we write down what we have going on. We just have an agreement to check the calendar (and ask) before we set anything up that impacts the other one.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      we have a shared iCal, and we put kid-related things like horseback riding lessons, birthday parties, school events, etc, but also “Half-Caf working late, Americano picking up the espresso shots.” A few times a month I need to be in super early, same thing. “Half-caf early start, Americano taking Espresso Shots to school.” We just add stuff and the other person gets a notification, and then we talk about contingency plans.

      For something like MD appointments we both want to be at, the scheduler either asks the schedulee for 3 dates/times that work, or gets the times, and texts them to the other for input. And then goes on the shared calendar.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Yeah, it’s the texting times back and forth that’s gotten messy recently. One person has to make a scheduling decision on the phone with a doctor’s office or real estate agent or at daycare pickup or something, and has to pick a time, hope it works for the other or that the other is able to respond to the text instantly, and then maybe go back and change it when it turns out it doesn’t work.

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          So, whenever possible, I schedule things online so that I don’t have that *instantaneous decision* problem.

          I recognize that a huge swath of businesses are still in the dark ages on this, but “ability to schedule online” was a criterion in deciding on everything from pediatrician to car dealership for me, and I introduced signup-genius to the teachers at school.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Interesting. Can you do that so they stay synced, when the two Outlook calendars are on servers with different company’s firewalls and such, or is it a one-time thing?

        1. Hold My Cosmo*

          To my knowledge you cannot sync once and forever have them auto-update each other, but I don’t doubt someone will write an extension to make it work eventually. There are multiple ways to go about it, and they all involve a bit more manual labor than I’d like, but they’re doable.

          The two easiest ways (for my preferences, so of course YMMV) are to use a combined account or to invite yourself in both places.

          For the first option, you can use the Calendar app on an Apple product and “add account” to input both Outlook and Google accounts. It will ask you to sync calendars and you accept it. Anything added to either Google or Outlook calendars will show up in the Calendar app, but there is a bit of lag time so you can’t rely on it for true last-second changes. For Android, you need to install the Outlook app from the Google Play store, because adding Outlook directly from the Android “add account” setting doesn’t work. As soon as it’s installed, it will ask you if you want to link to another account, so you’ll choose Gmail and it will sync the calendars. Now you should be able to see any calendar from the same device.

          For the second option, you just add the other e-mail address to every invite, so you’re creating meetings with yourself. This can get squirrely if you’re adding actual work tasks that are supposed to be private company business, so you may need to forward the invitation to yourself with the company data stripped out. Just make sure you change the Google setting (under the General tab) to automatically add invitations to your calendar, otherwise you will have to accept each one manually for it to show up.

          This big wall of text looks like a ton of work, but (as with most tech) it’s a lot of tweaking during set-up in order to get things rolling that will eventually become habit and partially take care of themselves.

    4. Dealtwiththis*

      We use a shared App called “The Hub”. We can manually add things to it or, I can pick and choose what I want to share with the hub from my work calendar. In this situation, I would go in and share everything on my work calendar for the next few weeks so spouse could see it. You can also set the appointments for “Spouse A”, “Spouse B” or “Both” which is super helpful. Our motto is “If it’s not on the Hub, it’s not happening!”

    5. Ali G*

      My husband and I send each other meeting requests to our work accounts. We both have our work calendars synced to our iPhones so we get reminders when we are not at work.
      For example we are meeting a new dog sitter on Thursday next week. So I sent him a meeting request at his work email with a reminder 1 hour in advance so he actually leaves work on time.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      A few things we do that might be useful for someone.

      1) Use a “Family” Google calendar for the shared responsibility stuff – kids sports, family events we are attending, etc.

      2) Same calendar, we add if we will be working late that day/week or unavailable for kid stuff, and we make these things RED. So for instance if I know I have something at work that will basically render me unable to do any of the kid-running for three days, I’ll have in RED on that calendar “A NON UNAVAILABLE”. He does the same. This way we can (at a glance) remember that three weeks from now the other parent is in it to win it, and we shouldn’t schedule anything unless it’s a drop dead emergency.

      3) This calendar we both view when making appointments, plans, etc. EVERYTHING goes on this calendar, so that we can see that a particular Saturday in October is already reserved, and not schedule anything on that day. We actually have it shared to our work calendars (rather than viewing our work calendars on the family one), as we are usually making decisions while at work – it’s the easiest way to look at it for us.

      4) This is the most crucial one of all: The one making the appointment does the running. So if one of the kids needs a dental visit and I’m not available for weeks due to work reasons, my husband makes the call and books the appointment at a time *convenient to him*. If I have availability, I make the appointment. Basically we do not make appointments the other will have to handle.

      In practical terms, we check in with each other before the week starts and see if anyone has blackout days (for example, if a coworker is gone Tuesday, he would be double-booked at work). If so, that means the other parent is “on deck” that day. If the school calls, if there’s a ball game to drive to, etc. it will fall on the “on deck” parent, without having to figure out on the fly who that is.

      Long story short: pre-sort who will handle the appointment before making it, so there’s no communication needed during the process.

    7. Long Time Fed*

      We have a family calendar. As soon as we know of an event, it goes on the calendar and we decide who is going to represent the parents. Nighttime stuff is easy and we can usually both be there, but it’s rare that there is a daytime event that we both have to be at.

      It’s worked. In 20+ years of parenting, at least one of us has been at every parent teacher conference, field trip, sporting event, doctor’s appointment, etc. I think it’s key to realize that you don’t have to do every single thing as a pair.

  89. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    I handed in my notice, and am in my last two weeks, and I keep reminding myself that the field in which I grow my fucks is barren.

    This is hard, because my replacement keeps messing up in a way that makes me look bad, and also doesn’t tell me anything she’s doing. Or does, so I say ‘hey, i’ll do that’ then she goes in and does it anyway, leaving me baffled as to whether a thing has been done twice, or not at all.

    Also, on a deeply personal and petty note, she has reformatted all my spreadsheets and made them very hard to read, and also, changed one of them so that it doesn’t work!

    1. Hmmm...*

      You gave your notice, in two weeks it will not be your problem. If you had a good reputation at your work before you started training her, people will know it is not your fault. Enjoy your new job!

      1. valentine*

        changed one of them so that it doesn’t work!
        Ride it out. They’re gonna miss you when you’re gone.

  90. NewGlassesGirl*

    If you realized someone at work, at a manager level, lie on linkedin about their education would you say something?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      On LinkedIn… no. You have no way of knowing if they did so on their application.
      Unless it is something like a nurse, doctor, therapist that requires state board credentials and they are treating patients.

    2. fposte*

      Probably not. I’d be likelier to if it was a claim about a certification whose absence would be a problem for the business. But just saying she got the MBA when she never finished? I’d just sneer privately.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Exactly! I think I’d frame as “Is this harming anyone, or does it have potential to harm anyone?”
        If it does, such as a lack of a certification, then maybe it should be brought to someone’s attention. However, I would think very carefully about it, as you may not know the whole situation. Otherwise, what people put on LinkedIn is not a binding legal requirement or anything.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      If it was someone I had good rapport with, I would bring it up with her privately, on the assumption/social fiction it was an honest mistake. I have had trouble getting LinkedIn to express things accurately. Life is hard to jam into macros.

    4. irene adler*

      Got to agree with the others, best not to say anything.

      But, they do say when one signs up for an account, that one is supposed to be truthful regarding the information they put in their profile.
      There’s a production manager here at my work, who has two LI profiles: one indicates he’s a director, the other says he’s a vice president. So your co-worker isn’t the only one who ‘misstates’ the truth.

      (I know I am not mistaken because we are a small company-13 people- and he’s the only one with his name who has ever worked here. And there’s no other company with the same name. )

  91. Crylo Ren*

    I wanted to thank everyone for their help last week regarding the issue that my husband encountered with his employer accidentally depositing a large chunk of his salary into his 401k and not into the account he had actually specified, and then pushing back on reversing the charges because it would be too difficult for them. Your feedback was a huge help not only in pleading his case but also gave us useful perspective as to how serious of an error this was.

    Update – after my husband raised more concerns with his boss, his boss went to bat for him with HR, and the result was that the VP of HR sent my husband an apologetic email yesterday afternoon addressing all the points of concern. Payroll is working on making my husband whole with the amount that was “lost” to the 401k, and putting steps into place with the 401k administrator so that this type of error can’t happen again.

    The VP also admitted in the email that the errors were traced back to a single employee (didn’t say who) and that person was let go that same day. So I wouldn’t necessarily call this a happy update, because it feels pretty bad that someone had to get fired for this.
    But, we are both a lot less stressed now that Payroll has acknowledged the issue and is working on making things right.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      I doubt the employee was fired just for this incident so don’t feel bad. Usually when there is one screw up, there are many.

      1. Ali G*

        Definitely. I had a similar situation where my husband realized that my company was allocating my money into my 401k very oddly (basically saving it up and depositing it in larger chunks rather than doing it every pay period), and thus I was missing out on compounding interest, etc.
        I kept asking someone to explain why how this was happening, and no one could answer my questions. Not too long after my complaints those people were gone and we also had a new contractor for managing our 401k accounts. I suspect my badgering of one issue was just the tip of the iceberg.

    2. E*

      So glad to hear that the company is taking the correct steps to make this right. The employee’s firing was not your fault, but their own, so don’t feel bad for that part. Folks who own up to errors like this would likely be given another chance.

    3. Karen from Finance*

      I remember you from last week, I don’t think I commented though because I’m not from the US so didn’t have much to add.

      Glad it worked out!

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Glad to hear this. I’m glad that he was able to get some attention on this.

      Agree with the others, it’s highly unlikely that this was a one off mistake for the employee who was fired.

  92. Red Lipstick and a Book*

    I have made the decision that after 5 years in incredibly stressful jobs with a lot of traveling and no work-life balance, climbing the corporate ladder really fast, I would like to change my career path. I am hoping to find something where working hard for 8 hours a day is more the norm (with the occasional overtime ofc) and I can be good at what I’m doing within those 8 hrs. (Also where I can be perceived as good by management because right now leaving on time is frowned upon, regardless of your workload.)
    I am moving abroad (within Europe) for very happy private reasons and I will take this occasion to also change industries and careers.
    How have you managed such a change? How did you get used to the different pace?
    I hope my question makes sense.
    Right now I feel so overwhelmed by work that I just cannot imagine to be in a position where I can actually finish things within my normal workday. As you might have guessed, my current company is infredibly disfunctional, and I am worried I’d miss the adrenaline, even though I am fed up.

    1. Ali G*

      I just did this! I think the hardest thing is giving yourself the room to really think about what you want to do, and what kind of environment you want to work in. I was lucky I had a supportive husband and was able to take time to really re-think my career. Spend some time listing what you want from your next job, what you don’t, and then only consider those jobs that fall on the right end of the spectrum.
      For me it was less stress, less travel, working for someone who valued me, and not having to commute across the river (major metropolitan area with only like 3 places to cross into the “city”).
      Once you find it, the transition will be easier than you think!

    2. Nana*

      When you move, is there a chance you could take short-term / contract / temp jobs. It’s a good way of getting the lay of the land, seeing what different paths are available, blah, blah. [I did this after moving cross-country and it was a very valuable experience.

  93. Jenn*

    I have an interview in two hours. I’m very, very nervous because I feel unprepared. Any quick tips for me?

    1. Anon Librarian Thinking about Going Home*

      Write out the questions you plan to ask and take them with you. So, you don’t forget any.

  94. Deloris Van Cartier*

    Happy Friday everyone! I need some advice on how to handle asking for a schedule accommodation while job searching. At my current job, I work Tuesday-Saturday which works great for me as I have to get an all day (about 7 hour) treatment in a hospital every two weeks. I can’t really work during it or afterwords so I’ve been getting them on Mondays which works out great. I’m starting to apply for some jobs that I find really interesting but I’m not sure how to ask for an accommodation like this. If I got a new job, I’d love to get them on Fridays to give myself a few days to recover as working the day after I get one can be tough with the brain fog and nausea. I will have to get these for the rest of my life so I’m not just asking for a day off every two weeks for a few months. How and when do I bring this up? I’d be happy to work 9 hour days so I can take one day off every two weeks or work 4 10 hour days that week but I feel like this may to be to much for a job to accommodate. Thoughts or advice is appreciate it! Thank you!

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I suggest you bring this up at the end of your first in-person interview, so that you know right away if this is something they’ll be able to accomodate. I think the level of detail you provided here (it’s a medical issue, a treatment, but no need to get into details) is appropiate, too.

      If at all possible, I would target businesses that value diversity in general, and that offer flexibility, as they are more likely to be ok with this. It varies according to industry, job, and seniority of the position, of course. But I imagine a lot of companies wouldn’t have a problem with this.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        Thank you for your suggestions! I work in the non-profit field which I think probably works towards my benefit but its something to definitely think about when applying for jobs!

    2. TPPD*

      I waited until the second round of interviews to bring up my lifelong standing hospital appointment (like yours, it’s an all-day event.) I didn’t want to bring up accommodations before potential employers considered me on my merits, rather than any misconceived risks associated with me. When I did bring it up, some potential employers clearly indicated that this level of “health complication” would not be acceptable, but most were willing to make reasonable accommodations.

      And it is *not* too much to ask of many employers; you would be asking for a legally-mandated reasonable accommodation. Please try to not feel guilty for both seeking employment and healthcare!

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        Thanks for the encouragement and sharing your story! I’d like to think I’m a great asset to employers but I do feel guilty having to ask for this as I’ve always lucked out and made it work with my previous jobs schedules. Hopefully I’ll find the right fit that doesn’t see this as a problem!

  95. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Ugh, I am quite upset about the United Methodist church’s recent decision on LGBT issues and trying not to let it affect work!

    I have always been ELCA but when I was in college, I lived at a campus ministry building run by a great female Methodist pastor. I was worried about getting kicked out if she found out I was gay, so I got ahead of it and told her.

    She was all, “so does being gay mean you’re drinking at the house or holding huge parties?” (This was not allowed). Obviously I wasn’t, so she just hugged me and told me not to worry about it. I don’t know, but in light of so much social change, this decision seems really backwards.

    How do you all focus better at work when you’re feeling down?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Because this is the work open thread (and because I have nothing particularly relevant to add), I’m not going to comment on the subject other than to say I’m sorry and I imagine it’s really difficult for you.

      In terms of how to focus better when you’ve got something weighing you down, I find that it helps if I can dive deep into something that takes up a lot of my brain space. If I’m working on something that’s not particularly difficult, my mind will naturally wander to the difficult topic. But if I’m deeply engaged in my work, everything else fades a bit more.
      Now the act of diving that deep can be hard to get started, but once you can, it usually sticks.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Try to think of something to distract you. I got shitty bad news yesterday that I’m still angry about, but having something else to think about did it.

      I am quite disappointed in that result with the church myself. Now I’m rooting for schism.

  96. Snowglobe*

    I work in a decentralized department, with staff spread out in about six offices in 4 states. Last summer, our grand-boss retired and a new director was brought in from outside the company. I’ve met her once. She is coming to our location in a couple of weeks, and I’ll be having a one-on-one with her. I want a chance to get to know her a little bit and I’d like her to know me. But I’m not sure what to put on our agenda. I don’t have any specific work issues to bring up (in our previous meeting I did have a few business topics that we covered, but there’s nothing really new). Any general topics you’d want to ask a newish boss?

    1. Bismuth*

      Do you have all-staff meetings? A newsletter? A “message from the CEO” on occasion? Industry newsletters? Ask her a general question on what she things about the company’s pivot to X, or the industry’s professional society’s position on Y. Something that’s not contentious, but she’ll be likely to have an opinion on. You’ll at least get to know her a bit better and hopefully start a good conversation. And if you get the right question in, it could be very revealing.

  97. InterviewComingUp*

    Interview Fashion Help, Please

    Can I really wear slim fitting or ankle length pants/ trousers to an interview? Like, in a traditional color (black, brown, or navy). With either nice leather wedges or Oxford with a small heel.
    With a blazer?
    For a higher education staff interview.

    1. AnonyMouse*

      I think what you’ve described for the pants/blazer is perfectly fine. I’ve seen many conventional suits that are designed that way. I’m having a harder time picturing what you are describing with the shoes though. My interview suit has a boot cut/small flare to the pants, but I usually wear a low pointed toe heel with them (I also work in higher ed). I think with the oxford style, it will probably depend on how you style the rest of your outfit. I think in higher ed you can get away with showing your personality more in an interview, so if what you are planning to wear is true to who you are I think it’s fine as long as it is still professional.

      1. InterviewComingUp*

        Thank you both of you. That gives me so much more confidence. I think I can make it definitely my style while being somewhat in the norm.

        Apparently this is a thing some other people like too. http://fashiontasty.com/how-to-wear-oxfords-and-brogues-outfit-ideas/

        If anyone has any opinions on blazers, please speak up. :) I’m torn between tweed professor looking blazers and sleek Ann Taylor/ Banana Reuplic blazers. Currently looking for inspiration on how to pair colors. . . On the inside I’m thinking all the neutral colors! All together! With tweed! I might need to stop myself.

    3. Anonysand*

      This is almost exactly what I wore to my interview for my staff position at a university! Slim fit black ankle pants (in a very thick, matte black material), a maroon tank top tucked in, and a fitted black blazer with 3/4 sleeves. I swapped out the heel (bad knee) with black pointed-toe flats. I kept my color palette to darks since that’s my typical style and wore a long necklace as jewelry.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      This seems like a pretty standard combo to me! I’ve certainly worn Oxford type shoes to an interview, especially if there was a lot of walking involved in getting there. I’m not really a heels kind of woman.

  98. IdleConversation*

    I’m a consultant working for a small private firm. I’ve been here two years and had a very fast career trajectory. When I started, I was new to the field, but had spent about 6 years as a consultant in another sector. Because of a high employee turnover in my first year, I quickly ended up managing large projects with little guidance and supervision. It went well, but I often felt out of my depth, having to make it up as I went along rather than learning from more experienced colleagues.

    About a year ago I started working extensively with an external consultant. He is involved in several of my projects, and leads some of them. We have developed a very good and collegial working relationship and complement each other well. He is a decade older than me and, while he is relatively new to the consulting world, has extensive experience within the sector we are focused on. I frequently ask him for advice on how to handle issues related to our projects. But he has also offered advice on time management and pushback and shown concern for my extreme workload this past autumn. We are also slowly becoming friends on a more personal level (I live in a country where work and private life tend to be quite separate domains). More than once, I have considered asking him to be my mentor, but held off because I am unsure if it will make any (positive) difference to our relationship. I’m curious about your thoughts on the benefits of “formalising” a mentor relationship or whether it makes more sense to continue as we have been going. Does anyone have any experience of this?
    ​

    1. Reba*

      not speaking from real experience, here, but FWIW I have always found it strange when people write on here that they have formally written so-and-so and invited them to be their mentor! This colleague is definitely already mentoring you, right? What would change by you asking him to be (named as ) what he is already doing? You can thank him for his mentorship and advice without any further process or naming ceremony or…

      1. Business Librarian*

        I agree wholeheartedly with Reba. I have a former professor who moved seamlessly into a colleague on organization committees (we’ve never worked for the same institution). I consider him (and refer to him) as my mentor and ask him for advice at every major turning point in my career. I’ve never asked out loud, “Will you be my mentor,” but I can’t imagine if asked, he would describe himself any other way.

        Inside my institution we have fairly formal mentoring arrangements for tenure-track faculty and so I’ve been a named mentor, but I’ve had a mentoring relationship with several people that weren’t named. I’d keep doing what you’re doing.

  99. This is my name today*

    Short question: How do I politely tell my boss to stop asking for updates on my job search because they are stressing me out?
    Long question/explanation: Due to reasons/circumstances beyond my control, my job search was outed to my boss last year without my consent. It’s unclear exactly who did the outing, it was either one of two coworkers who have since left or someone who worked at one of the offices I was applying for a job at. Luckily, it hasn’t completely backfired on me and my boss has actually agreed to serve as a reference for me and help with the process. However, I’m still uncomfortable that they know and it’s making the (long) process of finding a job more stressful than it needs to be (i.e. I can’t request a day off without my boss asking if it’s for an interview and if it is to tell them about the job; I get frequently asked out of the blue for updates on how it’s going, etc). I’m at the finalist stage for a position right now and my boss knows (because they were one of my references and they were called). Every day this week they have asked me if I’ve heard anything.
    Every.
    Day.
    Like if I hear them walking toward my office at 4:45 pm I’m just bracing myself for the conversation I don’t want to have. I really want to find a delicate way to tell them to stop (and I need them to stop for the sake of my sanity), but I also don’t want to jeopardize them serving as a reference in the future. Help?!?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      There’s no reason you can’t smile and say “I haven’t heard, and I’m nervous and anxious about it too. Believe me, I’ll let you know as soon as I hear anything.”

  100. GFS*

    I’m applying for a full-time remote position, but I’ve already got a summer job. I’m teaching this summer for just three hours a day, five days a week for six weeks so it feels like these things are easy to work around (working weekends and later nights) since it’s editorial work. However, how do I bring this up if I get to the interview phase?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      My understanding is that remote would be different than “outside normal work hours” and remote. You need to check what hours you’d be expected to be responsive and if there’s any reason it’s a problem if you’re unavailable during normal weekday business hours.
      BUT i’ve never actually been in this position, so I have absolutely zero authority here…

        1. GFS*

          Yes, I guess the first question will be about if there are expected standard hours, since this is a full-time position! And that could lead into my question— ty

    2. Overeducated*

      Have you taught this course before? I have taught a 3 year daily summer class, and the first time, it was definitely full time for those weeks due to prep.

        1. GFS*

          I’m a little worried about prep, but this is a course with plenty of support, including two TAs and a co-instructor. The co-instructor is actually my partner, so I feel like that will help cut some of that concern down. Additionally, it’s a creative seminar style course, so it’s supposed to be more active and conversation based. I’m hoping we can get much of the prep down before the course starts. But certainly concerned— good point!

  101. Karen from Finance*

    I want to thank people who were discussing ADD in the comments section a few days ago, as it encouraged me to get an appointment. I don’t know if ADD is what I have, it may really just be anxiety, but the discussion helped me reflect and gave me the courage to get help. It has been getting in the way of work lately, I’m so unable to focus it’s starting to become a problem despite my coping mechanisms. I’m becoming practically useless without looking at my notes at every moment, and I work in an environment where being attentive and mindful is fundamental.

    So I’ll see what the doctor says… one way or the other it can only be for the better, so thanks.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I missed that discussion. I am glad you are getting tested! You might also google Executive Dysfunction– everyone with ADD/ADHD has some Executive Dysfunction, but not all people with Executive Dysfunction have ADD or ADHD.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        That’s interesting!

        If I’m not mistaken, the thread happened in the post with the academic who was forgetful and his wife “had to” pick up after him (OP’s question was about if it was ok to contact the wife for some equipment the husband had to return but kept forgetting).

        After a quick google search, I don’t think Executive Dysfunction applies to my case. I don’t have issues with problem-solving or flexible thinking (in fact those are what I excel at). My problem is that most of the time I cannot remember what I am supposed to be doing at that very moment.

        I keep a lot of lists, which everyone in my office noticed, and they think it’s because I’m careful and methodical. But what I don’t think they realize is that a lot of the times I’m writing down what I am doing at the very moment: “send an email to paula. include the thing about the supplier payments. ask about expenses.” “run report: go to website. update this chart. copy this other chart. send the email”. These are routine steps that I know full well, but I will write down every sub-step of the process down to the detail so that I can check them off as I go because I will forget halfway through.

        Also I mix up my words a lot and I find it hard to retain information. I can recall it if prompted, but I can’t access it as quickly.

        And the worst is that sometimes people speak to me and I’m just not listening. Not on purpose, often I’m making an effort, but I’m blanking out. When they are saying important things, too, and I’ll absent-mindedly nod as they speak and then panic trying to piece it together.

        So I don’t know if it happens because OF anxiety, but I know that it creates a lot of anxiety for me as I’m always in fear of getting “caught”. I’m trying to work on getting better sleep (I’ll soundproof my bedroom over the weekend) because that will help some in the meantime, but whether it’s ADD or anxiety I realized I need help.

        2. I see myself in your post*

          Especially that last part about zoning out when people are talking to me. It’s worse when people talk to me on the phone especially for work and they’ve suddenly stopped talking and are waiting for my response. I’m usually like “WTF were they just saying? OH right! The FML report!”

        3. Quandong*

          Congratulations on making an appointment, it sounds like whatever is happening for you is intensely stressful and anxiety-provoking. You might like to look up ADHD Inattentive Type as part of your preparation for your appointment.

          I really hope you get some excellent advice and help from the doctor. If you don’t feel satisfied with their approach, remember it’s worth seeking a second opinion.

    2. Its all good*

      I read a book called something like ADD in the Workplace. It described me to a T, I cried. It also has a chapter or two about managing an ADD employee.

  102. Amethyst*

    I just completed all four steps to my interview process (phone interview, online assessment, in-person/onsite interview, & 2 hours observing the office to verify whether I still was interested in the position) for a teapot tester/receptionist position. The last one surprised me; I’ve never had an interview process take this long, & they stated several times that this office is an extremely busy one. I made it clear I was still interested, but they insisted on this observation period to ensure I wouldn’t be one of those candidates who’d run screaming out the door.

    I’ve sent an email thanking my interviewer for spending the time teaching me some backend things & appreciated seeing some things I’d never known they do before sending their quality tested teapots out into the world. I was informed that there’s another 2 weeks or so to go before I know whether they’ve gone with me or another candidate. They “need a teapot tester, but aren’t in a hurry to fill the position” so they’re interviewing more applicants, & re-interviewing a handful that a regional director didn’t have the opportunit to meet.

    All of this seems weird to me, but I don’t know if it’s just because I’ve never been through this extensive interview process before. Is this normal? It seems like they’re being overly cautious at this point.

    1. Hello*

      It’s very expensive to hire the wrong employee, and being in a hurry is how you make mistakes. I think it’s a good sign that they’re doing this seriously (I’m used to the in person interview + office observation to be done the same day, having to come back would be annoying). Since they have time, it’s not shocking they’d interview a lot of people. On the other hand, if the process takes too much time, the people with better options will self-select out.
      I wonder how long the first steps took (1 week, 3 weeks?) and if you were one of the first candidates. Then maybe, a whole 4-5 weeks to recruit isn’t absurd. If it’s been longer, I guess they figure you’re good enough to save a spot for but not so stellar they’ve decided to not interview more people.

      1. Amethyst*

        Yeah, I was one of the first candidates to apply for the position. I submitted my app around 7 PM the day it went up, got emailed the next day asking for a phone interview which was set up for Monday morning, then did the assessment the day after that, & the in-person interview was 2 days after the assessment was completed. I was asked to come back the following Wednesday (this past) for the assessment. So it’s been about 2 weeks so far from then to now.

        To be fair, all of the positions I’ve worked thus far have been entry-level. This is as well, so for an entry-level position to take this long compared to the others is odd. (I’ve been offered the job either on the spot or the very next day.)

  103. Jerry*

    I have a new employee whom I just adore. She’s only been reporting to me for 5 months, and I can’t say enough positive things about her. She is high energy, positive, emotionally intelligent, thinks whollistically, learns quickly, GETS HER WORK DONE, and makes our whole team better. I can’t wait to report to her in 15 years. 10 if she keeps up the intensity and energy. (I’m only gushing here because I praise her frequently and publicly enough, and my experience suggests over-frequent praise has the dual hazard of sounding insincere or giving young employees big heads)

    1. Mediamaven*

      As a business owner trying desperately to hire right now, I’m inspired by this post! And jealous!

    2. KarenK*

      We’ve got one, too, and she’s like a true breath of fresh air! She replaced a long-term, seriously burned-out employee who should have retired about three years ago. Luckily, old employee left about two months before new employee started, so she was unable to poison/pass on bad habits to new employee. My supervisor truly could not be happier.

  104. Bad at support*

    Hello everyone, I wonder how to handle the awkward situation of being witness to a colleague being told their work isn’t up to par by a more senior colleague. This isn’t ‘somebody is an asshole’ situation. This is a ‘things are hard and people are human how am I to be supportive?’

    So my colleague Lyta has been struggling at work because work is hard right now but also because she’s not a very organised person (nothing egregious but since there’s more work, there are more consequences than usual), and she’s working with Michael who’s senior to us both and working with her (as in he depends on some aspects of her work to do his own). Michael is competent and very organised. He’s also blunt and says it when things aren’t up to standard (he’ll say ‘okay I need this and this delivered, and you told me it’d be done but it’s not and I’m tired of wasting my time, can you do this by X date? Are you sure this time?’, no insults or anything, and he’s otherwise helpful and friendly). Lyta tends to shut down when she feels told off, and I know working with Michael stresses her out, but he’s been softening his tone and being more patient than usual so it’s not like he’s not doing what he can on his side (and he’s also overworked).

    So this time, I was around when he got annoyed at Lyta because she made some mistakes (which amount to wasted time for both of them). Lyta looked disheartened and resigned after that. I changed the subject when Michael left rather than acknowledge what had happened.

    Could I have done something better ? This isn’t about saying Michael has the facts wrong, or figuring out how they can better communicate (conversation had already, and manager’s on it) it’s about being supportive to Lyta because I know it sucks to feel not on top of things.

    1. foolofgrace*

      Lyta looked disheartened and resigned

      She *looked* resigned, or she quit? If she quit, I don’t see what you could have done about it. Actually, even if she didn’t quit, I don’t see what you could have done about it.

    2. Jerry*

      Personal preference: support by helping. If you have tips, tricks, shortcuts or techniques that will help Lyta, offer them (in a polite, deferential, non-condescending manner). Not all, but many people are resentful of emotional coddling, especially if you haven’t earned that kind of emotional closeness. If she needs emotional support she’ll turn to you, or more likely her emotional support network and reach out for it. Besides, she doesn’t have an emotional problem, she has a practical problem. If you can help her with the practical problem the emotional one will go away.

      1. valentine*

        It seems she could improve immediately by underpromising and overdelivering.

        But you don’t have to take this on. Of course she’s going to feel bad. Let her work it out. Don’t rush in to soothe her or to smooth it over. In fact, even if Michael interrupted a conversation, you can go back to your work and ignore them, then leave Lyta be so the seriousness can sink in.

  105. 653-CXK*

    I’ve got good news and bad news.

    The Bad News (which is likely best for the weekend free-for-all, likely in Junior Dev’s “mental health thread”): It began late Saturday afternoon, progressed downward on Sunday, was at its worst Monday (the good thing was that I’ve never felt warmer in my life), and then improved Tuesday. I’m 95-96% there, but for the occasional cough. I gotta say, Delsym worked like a dream.

    The Good News: I alluded to this on the February 22-23 thread, but I’m going to flesh it out a little bit.

    Recall that I’ve been waiting to hear back from a job I applied to in late January, had the interview, reference, etc. I was afraid that this was yet another dead end, so I contacted the hiring manager on Tuesday for a status update.

    Then I got the good news I’ve been waiting to hear: I GOT A JOB OFFER and I ACCEPTED! The hiring manager called me about fifteen minutes after my email – the hold up was one of my supervisors was out, but once they got all the information, they made the offer.

    My start date hasn’t been determined yet, but I am so, so glad this nine month adventure is ending. The Letters of Nope, the ghosting, the “oh so close but no cigar…” it was sometimes hilarious but harrowing too.

    I knew what I wanted, and after several false starts, I focused on the job that fit me and the company. My problem was that I was treating the job search like throwing darts, seeing if I could hit a bullseye. (Last year, I sent 140 resumes and got very close exactly two times.) Each time I felt down on myself on the job search, I said, “would you rather be back at ExJob with all the toxic sludge? The nitpicking? The nastiness?” A few seconds of “you’re better here than there” helped me focus at the job at hand.

    I’ll fill you in on details as they come along, but I especially want to thank AAM for their invaluable advice. If I hadn’t stumbled upon the website, I would never have begun this adventure.

    2. 653-CXK*

      The “it” in this case was a hybrid cold/sludge that’s been going around. I am now fully recovered.

  106. Decima Dewey*

    Hello, all.

    I’ll start with the good news this week. I got my performance evaluation and was rated Superior overall. Yay!

    Yesterday’s training at the cluster meeting was a good one, about Breast-/Chestfeeding Friendly spaces. We learned that, in Pennsylvania, a breastfeeding parent has the right to breastfeed in any space they can be in if even they’re not breastfeeding. Additionally, the City of Philadelphia requires employers to provide breaks for pumping, and a private, clean place to pump. By law, the private, clean place to pump must be a space other than the bathroom. All of this was presented in gender neutral language. The organization providing the training says that anyone can breastfeed, although some may require medical intervention to induce lactation. We got pretty signs to put up to declare that our branches are Breast-/Chestfeeding friendly.

    One day this week a patron called me over because the printer coinbox wasn’t taking her last quarter. I took a look at the coin, noticed that the Queen of England was on it. I pointed out that wasn’t a quarter. Patron said the coin had 25 Cents on it. True, but it also had British Honduras on it. The name of the country has been Belize since the 1970s, but that’s another matter.

    Today I discovered that “under the weather” is an idiom my boss doesn’t get. I thought I’d made it clear that Athenais was still sick and wouldn’t be in. Boss thought I said that Athenais would be late because of the weather. I’ll try to be more literal in future!

  107. OfficeGrinch*

    A position two levels above me has opened up and my boss has encouraged me on 3 different occasions to apply. I have been told that I am guaranteed an interview. This would be a big transition into a management roll very soon after I started my career. I am up for the challenge and have applied for it. I’m uneasy about it though. When the job posting was announced I reviewed it but wrote it off because I believed it was out of my reach. I’ve never applied for something that was such a big jump for me professionally. I’ve also never felt “imposter syndrome” before but its hitting me hard right now. I’m not sure that I’m really looking for advice; just needed an outlet for my nervous energy.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Awww! Do they offer leadership/management training when a person moved into a management role for the first time? You can even look at the job description and rate yourself at each one of the skills/competencies listed, no one but you has to see it. But it might give you a better perspective on how qualified you really are! The interview might also help you identify the areas you need to build on so that when another opportunity comes up you feel more prepared/confident.
      Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

  108. Ann*

    Software engineer career searching advice?

    While I enjoy the company I’m currently at, I feel like I’m outgrowing it. My manager is pushing hard for me to go into management, which is not what I want, especially not at this point in my career and I definitely do not want to be managing outsourced resources, because it’s a nightmare (here, at least). I also have some pretty big disagreements with his philosophy of using said outsourcing companies and views of things like delivering software fast vs high quality.

    I’m in embedded software, which is kinda a niche, so I’m wondering if anybody has any experience or advice job searching in this field? I’m specifically trying to avoid some of the large automotive and aerospace companies (based on experiences of friends who work there), so that limits my search some. I also don’t currently have a LinkedIn (not a huge fan of social networks in general tbh) so I wonder if that’s hurting me – and also if creating one will make it obvious I’m job searching (especially since many of my coworkers know I’m unhappy with my boss).

    I got my current job through Indeed, so I’ve been browsing casually there, but it seems like many of the postings are either entry level or want 5-8 yrs experience (I have 2.5). Once I get my resume together I’m still planning on trying for those more senior positions, but I’m wondering if there’s other avenues I should be exploring to find openings?

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      No experience job searching, but at a previous job I did some work tangential to embedded software. We were working on industrial automation projects. (Automated packaging systems, mostly.) Perhaps that’s a viable search term?

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Why are you avoiding the larger aerospace companies? Some of them are varied across their sites so the experience your friends had on one project or site might be very different in another part of the company.

  109. LizB*

    I think this is mostly a vent, since I’m pretty sure I know the answer, but…

    I live somewhere where it’s been very cold and snowy for the past month. One of my junior employees (part time, customer facing role) has made several joking comments to me during this time along the lines of, “We need some global warming to get rid of all this snow/cold!” The first time, I said back, in a lighthearted tone of voice, “Nuh uh, global warming’s the reason this polar vortex is down here instead of where it belongs! It’s making this all worse!” The subsequent times I’ve just kind of made amused noises. This employee is not the brighest bulb in the chandelier, and I think these jokes are coming from hearing them from others plus not knowing the basics of climate science.

    There’s nothing more I can say about this, right? The employee’s job doesn’t have anything to do with science or politics, although they do work with kids. Our customers come from all walks of life and all sorts of educational and political backgrounds. The whole “it’s cold here now so climate change is fake!” thing is a serious pet peeve of mine, but I can’t bring my own semi-political pet peeves into my relationship with my staff, right?

    1. Snark*

      I am an ecologist. So; I feel the hell out of this. I think you can maaaaaybe say something like, “hey, since global warming is a contentious topic, let’s cut the jokes about it, particularly since we work with kids who might be confused.”

      But yes, I hate this entire line of reasoning with the fiery heat of of a spring day in 2094.

    2. Bacon Pancakes*

      As a science-based person in a science-based role, this type of comment bugs me a LOT. If I found this information was being parrotted in front of my children I would correct it as the client!
      I think it might be a kindness to send them a short email with some factual information letting them know that when they regurgitate this kind of mis-information they can come off as uneducated.
      Your goal here should be not to convince them they are wrong or make them feel dumb, but to encourage them to seek out accurate information.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Just maybe your junior employee thinks they’re making a clever joke and can’t ‘read the room’ to realize the joke isn’t funny. I have a few relatives who do just this. (I think they’re on the mild autism spectrum, but who knows.) They love making jokes, but their jokes are just odd and not to be taken seriously.

      If these comments continue to bother you, I’d ask for more information. What does the employee really think about global warming? Maybe you can put this to rest soon.
      Good luck.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      If the employee’s general lack of education or intelligence interferes with their work, you should certainly take that into account in giving them assignments or keeping them on.

      If they are supposed to be teaching the kids, especially anything science related, you have standing to cut this off.

      If “working with kids” just means they are a pool lifeguard, or a daycare/afterschool worker, or some such, then I think you should just roll your eyes and turn it into a Bingo game.

      It’s annoying, sure. But you don’t want to be the boss who harangues part-time employees about stuff that has nothing to do with their jobs. Even when you’re right.

      1. LizB*

        Thanks for commiserating, all! If they make the same comment again, I’ll probably ask them to stop that particular joke — either because we don’t know how customers feel about global warming and don’t want to get ourselves into any kind of argument about it, or because it’s really not accurate about the way the weather works and we don’t want to give any kids the wrong information. (I’ll pick my explanation based on the context it comes up in again.) Otherwise I’ll leave it.

  110. Blargnonymous*

    Are all public companies run by people who only care by shareholders and not employees? I’m increasingly feeling like my company’s leadership thinks carefully about framing to the market but not about taking care of us little folk.

    1. KR*

      I can’t tell you where I work obvs but my company is very focused on their employees and shareholders both . Don’t give up hope

    2. MissDisplaced*

      A public traded corporation’s main responsibility is to the shareholders to deliver a profit on their investment.
      Customers and employees come second and third (employees may come even further down the list, depending), though most will claim customers come first because you can’t have profit without sales. However, I find that mostly to be lip service. Customers will be cut or dropped in a heartbeat if that market segment is not profitable.

      Yes, I’m cynical.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, they actually have a contractual obligation as a publicly traded company to have their primary purpose to increase shareholder profits. Employees aren’t the top priority. Even customers are not the top priority. If the company treats employees and customers well, it’s only because they think it will maximize their profits for shareholders.

    3. Maya Elena*

      I’d say once a company turns into a dinosaur that isn’t run by a single person – maybe, when the original founder is dead – then they start prioritizing short-term stock performance vs. real long-range planning, and become afraid of losing standing as a “growth company” or whatever else investors think of them. This reflects in a worsening both for employees (if it was good before0 and for their product, as they cater more and more to the lowest common denominator in every respect, because that’s “the largest demographic” of both employees and customers. Sometimes the Visionary Leader isn’t himself great to employees, but then it’s still not “the stockholders” so much as HIS vision or HIS product.

    4. Southern Yankee*

      There are public companies that are not jerks. Fiduciary duty to shareholders is real, but it is not mutually exclusive to being ethical and caring. A company may be more successful and profitable when they also treat customers and employees well – that kind of behavior keeps star employees and retains great customers. I’ve been in C-suite level meetings when a complex decision with significant cost drivers came down to “what is the RIGHT thing to do”.

      However, that doesn’t mean I get 10% raises per year, everything is perfect, and they always get it right. It’s a complex balance that is much more successful when upper management actually believes that the balance leads to success. Your company may just be paying lip service, but not all companies are faking it. I am very thankful to have found such a company…and even more so since finding AAM and so many horror stories!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This just feeds my distrust to public companies and large businesses in general. I’m sorry you’re stuck feeling this way, even if it’s just perceived on your end.

      Lots of people around here disparage small companies but maybe if you’re feeling trampled on, you would like a smaller setup where you are rarely just a cog in the wheel if you have the right ownership. *hugs*

  111. Ihmmy*

    A few weeks ago I posted about how to kindly ask people to stop referring to me as part of ‘girls’ or ‘ladies’

    That itself hasn’t been solved, but I did find out it was easy to update my prefix to Mx. in our internal system. I went and talked to my manager about it too, since I wasn’t sure if it would send her an automated update that I’d done this, and she was super supportive of me updating my information to be better/more accurately reflect who I am. I gave her a heads up I might be asking some people to use ‘girls/ladies’ less but was working on keeping it friendly in tone, and she acknowledged she does this a lot too – though I find it much less bothersome when it’s someone I have a friendly relationship with.

    Anyway she’s going to try and refer to my and my coworker less as ‘girls’ and we had a nice chat about how language changes and evolves, and basically it was just a super positive interaction which was fantastic.

    1. AliceBD*

      So glad it was easy for you to update and that your boss is supportive! Fingers crossed they start to use more neutral language! (Plus, “girls” is inappropropriate in general to refer to adults in the workplace, even if they all identify as women, so people should just remove that from their work vocabularies anyway.)

  112. Bacon Pancakes*

    I applied for a job and have not been selected for an interview. Should I email/talk to the people who agreed to be a reference and thank them, and let them know I have not been selected for consideration?

    1. Snark*

      I have had folks do this for me, and it came off as kind of a side-door, implied/deniable “hey, I didn’t get an interview, but if you have any sway with the hiring manager could you maybe try to get me one,” so I would not do so.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t really see a need to do this. First of all, they could be a reference for you for another position. Are you completely not searching any more? Also, why do they need to know?

      1. Bacon Pancakes*

        I actually really like my job, but there is no room for growth in my current office. It is more of a “if the right job comes along…” situation where I’m not ACTIVELY looking, but if the right ‘something’ were to come up I would thrown my name in the hat.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, you don’t need to tell them you didn’t get the job. What if another “right job comes along”? If you don’t tell them, they won’t be surprised when they get called up as a reference for the other job.

  113. Tableau Wizard*

    Is this a common experience?
    We are looking to hire a data analyst for a very specific role. A lot of the functions of the role will need to be taught, but the person needs to be able to do a fair amount of heavy excel (not quite VBA, but nested formulas and dynamic pivots, etc.).
    When interviewing, we give candidates an excel test to show us their skills.
    The first candidate we interviewed was great in the conversation portion of the interview but left us disappointed with her test. We kept looking and had enough candidates that looked good on paper that we went ahead and let her go.
    We kept giving the Excel test and NO ONE could do it. I even gave it to a friend from a different industry because she was curious if she could pass this “hard” test and she passed with flying colors and confirmed that it’s not an unreasonable (or even difficult) test for the person who will have the skills needed to be successful.
    Finally after a couple weeks of searching, my boss extended an offer to a woman who was a great culture fit and who we think is teachable enough to learn the skills needed.

    What I’m stuck on is 2 things:
    1. The first woman did better on the test and was maybe a better potential hire (once we decided no one would have all the skills) but the timing was just wrong. Was there anything we should’ve done differently for that?
    2. How do you find candidates who have actual Excel knowledge? Everybody’s resumes pointed that they should be able to do this and they simply weren’t even close.

    2. Murphy*

      I think you’re doing the right thing giving the test! I had a job once that had an excel test at the interview and they said it had a big impact on their assessment of the candidates.

      What kind of excel skills are you advertising for? Are you giving specific examples of the kind of things they’ll need to do?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Sometimes highlighting that it’s a test makes people extra nervous. I used to test people’s Excel skills without telling them it was a test. I mean, everyone knows everything that happens during an interview is a test of some kind—the interviewer will always be judging you by your words, your posture, your punctuality, etc. But I found there are ways to get people to suspend a little bit of disbelief of about a test being A TEST. For one, I don’t say “Here’s a test on your Excel skills.” Instead, I say “Can I show you a couple of examples of what you might be doing?” and then walk them through some of the reporting and data manipulation the position would typically do. Even though I’m “walking them through” steps, you can’t spell out every single little thing that the person must do, and you can tell a lot about how comfortable someone is with Excel if you walk her through tasks. You can also see how teachable they are.

    4. Amber Rose*

      2) List some specific Excel knowledge you want people to have. Make sure they know that you need them to understand nested formulas and dynamic pivots, and not just how to add, subtract and make graphs. Because there are definitely people who think that basic formulas and graphs make them Excel experts.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I know nested formulas and pivot tables, and I still don’t consider myself an Excel expert.

        When people come to me and say “You know a lot about Excel, right?” or “Are you the Excel expert?” I usually just say “Why don’t you tell me what you’re having trouble with, and I’ll see if I can help?”

        “Expert” is kind of a meaningless term. I agree with you that it makes more sense to “[l]ist some specific Excel knowledge you want people to have.”

    5. Never*

      Is advanced Excel knowledge clearly listed as a requirement in the job ad? I’m a data analyst, and I don’t use Excel for data manipulation or analysis. I use things like SAS, R, and SQL. Is Excel still your industry standard?

    6. Someone Else*

      FWIW I don’t think these candidates were trying to lie about their Excel skills. I think it’s highly likely they don’t know enough about Excel to realize how little they know about Excel.
      Unless your posting said specifically things like pivot tables, VBA, whatever other specific stuff you want people to do, and then it turned out it the test they could do none of it, maybe the resumes didn’t really point as much as it seemed?
      In other words, if the posting just says “requires advanced Excel skills” and the resumes say “advanced Excel skills”, neither is being specific enough to confirm a match.

    7. AnonJ*

      Oh, I can relate! I recently hired for an entry-ish level position that did require some decent Excel skills and we set up a test that was specific to the work the position would involve. What I learned is that people use Excel for a lot of different things and will measure their perceived abilities based on their mastery of the specific things they’ve needed to use excel for in the past, which may or may not apply to us.

      We set up a file with generic data that was similar to what the job would entail, and provided a document that described what needed to be done with the data to get it to what we needed. We allowed the use of google and help to get there. What we found with our first interviewee was that she got through steps 1 and 2 of the test with ease, she got hung up on step 3 – she’d found the function she needed to use but just couldn’t make it work right and got stuck there. This was a time limited test.

      With subsequent applicants we told them if they get stuck somewhere they can move on to the next step and should use their time to get as much done as possible given their abilities. What we found was that most everyone got hung up on the same step as applicant #1 but would quickly give up and move on. They didn’t even find the right function before giving up and moving on to the next step.

      We ended up hiring applicant 1 because she’d found the right function and had it almost right and that was probably the toughest part. We were also impressed that in her in-person interview with us she referred to an MS Office skill I’d asked about in our phone interview…in the phone interview she said she didn’t have experience with it; in our in person she said that after the phone interview she watched a couple of youtube tutorials on it and could totally follow along and felt that she could do it fine but would want someone she could ask if she needed some field-mapping specific guidance the first few times. We were really impressed that she brought up that shortfall in her experience but demonstrated she could self-teach and identify where she might need help to carry it through to what was required of the job.

      Another example, I had a part-time employee in our call center who was a community college student in business administration. She needed an internship in her last semester and I was happy to give her a paid one. She had zero excel skills beyond entering data and I spent considerable time with her teaching formulas and functions and pivot tables and she really blossomed from there. In her internship evaluation that I filled out for her adviser I commented that I was completely flummoxed that they’d send a student into a business administration internship without having basic excel skills (and praised her for how quickly she not only learned but truly understood what I taught her). I got a call from that adviser within hours of sending my evaluation. He was contrite and said he’d be talking to the powers that be to make sure that every student got hands on Excel experience in their coursework before they’re sent out into the working world.

      And a final example, I have an employee who is a combination of learning from me and self-taught in Excel, and he self-teaches himself to the level that our analysts often go to him for help even though he is in a very different role than they are. The analysts are great in SPSS and SAS and R, but when it comes to mass producing reports using VBA programming with Excel and Word, he is their go to on things like suppressing errors, formatting data for presentation, and the like.

      To sum it all up: Listing Excel as a skills requirement in a job advertisement or listing Excel as a skill on a resume doesn’t mean a whole lot without being able to tie it into the specific use of Excel in a specific position. and businesses use Excel for many different things. Skills tests that are specific to how you actually use Excel in your day to day operations are your best bet. but be mindful of people’s learning- and problem-solving abilities in your evaluation.

  114. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Today I feel like I work for the evil overlord. There have been some callous & short-sighted decisions that are rightfully driving long-time employees out of the company. (Not my stories to tell, unfortunately.)
    But seeing what happened to them made me realize I had never put my promotion onto LinkedIn. I logged into the HR website for the exact date …and there is no record of anything that happened before the website redesign. Their site says I was hired as a Senior TeapotTitle in 2016. Nothing about my hire in 1999 as a TeapotTitle. On a hunch I went to the awards history — and they have also deleted or lost any awards given before 2015. So much for the powers that be reassuring us that we need not print them, the record will be online.
    At least I have emails back to our conversion to MSOutlook in 2005, including my Six Sigma Greenbelt date.
    A few may have escaped from 2004, but it’s not that many…I’m definitely glad to be a bit compulsive about retaining emails today.

  115. Too ready for 5 to think of one*

    Was it Ask A Manager that used to send anonymous messages to interviewers who didn’t notify people that they didn’t get the position? I saw it somewhere, but can’t remember if it was here or not.

    Yes, I should just move on :) That’s not my question though.

      1. Too ready for 5 to think of one*

        Darn… I was hoping I was wrong and it still existed somewhere. Do we know why it went away?

  116. Amber Rose*

    I successfully asked a coworker to stop doing that mumble-singing thing people do where they sing quietly under their breath but kind of high pitched and off tune. It’s the only thing I can’t handle. I can put up with a lot, but that… ugh. Anyways, I asked her to stop and she did and it wasn’t awful or confrontational so thanks AAM for giving me the scripts and courage to actually do the thing instead of stewing in anger.

    Also I got a nice big raise and some other adjustments and stuff so apparently I am not sucking at my job. I was pretty sure I was but I guess everyone’s happy with me.

    Hilariously, my employee review meeting was interrupted by a lengthy conversation about which particular shade of color our logo uses after a coworker barged in to passionately rant at my manager about it. Sometimes the chaos of this place is pretty funny.

  117. Kali*

    I went back to uni at 27, and I’ll be graduating in 2020. I’m a bit worried that I’m only good at uni, and that working will be awful. Before uni, I worked a lot of jobs that I hated. I worked at McDonalds for three years right after school, then for a vegan cafe, which was kind-of nice but the boss was weirdly disfunctional, then for a horribly misogynistic company, spent a year unemployed with only £10 a week left after bills, and then worked at a credit-card call centre for three years. I was pretty miserable for a lot of that, and though I realise that life with a degree in a specialised subject will be different, I’m afraid that it won’t be. Can anyone relate to that?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Have hope! I was never very successful in any of my entry-level jobs and always felt like the boss didn’t like me. But I’ve been reasonably successful in white collar office jobs for the past 10 years. They are different. Partly that was because all those early jobs were shiftwork where there was a lot of focus on never being late or leaving early, something I didn’t used to be as good at as I am now. Also, they didn’t really want curious employees who asked questions and cared about improving systems in my food service / shiftwork past – they wanted people to just shut up and do the basic tasks without complaining (fair enough!). I’ve been able to carve out roles that allowed me to use those skills for good since then … and probably also gotten more judicious about the questions / suggestions that I raise :P

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        “Also, they didn’t really want curious employees who asked questions and cared about improving systems in my food service / shiftwork past – they wanted people to just shut up and do the basic tasks without complaining (fair enough!).”

        This resonates with me. I never enjoyed my food service / retail / various other low-wage jobs and frankly I wasn’t good at them either. When I was younger I worried that meant I was a bad employee and was destined to be miserable in every job for the rest of my career. Fortunately, this totally changed after college graduation and entry into a specialized field. I think the key is finding the type of work that interests you and the types of jobs that align with your natural skills.

    2. NeverNicky*

      I can relate. And perhaps offer hope. After a patchy job history, in a series of bad fits, dysfunctional workplaces and just dull non-career roles, I did a part time degree, graduating in 2012. In 2010, partly from the skills my degree added to my CV (fellow Brit ), partly from added confidence I started a new job. I found my niche and have flourished since, winning awards, being published and invited to train others.
      My degree was life changing – probably because of the life experience before it. I hope – nay, believe- yours will be too.

  118. Restructure Hellion*

    So after the restructure tripled my workload, for my annual raise I get *drumroll*….the standard COL increase I get every year. My manager says it’s the best she can do. SMH.

    Yeah I am so over this. Plus there is a merger coming. Any advice for my exit plan?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I’d suggest leverage those accomplishments into extremely specific bullet points for your resume. “Doubled the productivity of the widget department over two years, successfully processing 10,000 widgets per hour.” “Reduced staffing costs of typist pool by 50%” Someone else is looking to pay you more for these skills!

  119. Teeth*

    Should I pull a tooth (a literal one, I need to get rid of my wisdom teeth) four days before starting a new job, or a couple of days into a new job? I don’t know what to do!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do it before! You’ll have three whole days to recuperate. Talk to your doc about pain and swelling relief. In your position, I would feel much less stressed if I showed up on the first day with a few aftereffects (and you may not have any) than if I wasn’t able to take any time off to get it done/recuperate because I had just started a new job.

      1. valentine*

        Before. Even if the dentist thinks you’ll need pain medication longer, delaying is better than disrupting your first week.

    2. Not All*

      Ask your dentist/surgeon what they think recovery will be like. Based on mine, I’d say “before” but it really depends on how invasive your removal will be. (Mine was done by regular dentist, not dental surgeon, even though one of them was lying on its side & partially trapped by the rear molar. Swelling was totally down about 2 days after. Only thing visible 3 days later was where the corner of my mouth was torn when he was trying to get leverage.)

    3. Sutemi*

      I would do it before starting the new job. I haven’t had tons of oral surgery, but four days was enough to feel mostly better.

    5. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Before! Four days is enough to walk around and kind of talk. I don’t think you’d get four days to recover from surgery that soon in a new job anyway, so take advantage of it! They’ll understand if you’re a little puffy and can’t go out to lunch.

    6. Adminx2*

      BEFORE!!!! Everyone heals differently but I had 5 out at once and was fine after 2 full days of REST and ICE. It’s much easier to push back a start date due to unexpected illness than it is to start and stop and frustrate the flow.

    7. ello mate*

      I would be very careful to follow peoples advice saying doing it 4 days before. When I got my wisdom teeth out I went to work after a week and had to leave because of intense nasuea dizziness and pain. we all react differently of course but holy hell I couldn’t have gone in on day 4 especially not at a professional office.

    8. n*

      Before. I had 4 impacted wisdom teeth removed. Everyone told me I’d be fine doing it over a three-day weekend. I really should have taken more time off, though. 5 days of recovery would have been just right. 4 days is manageable, but you might still be on pain meds (and therefore kinda loopy) and pretty tender.

    9. Katy*

      I would say before, because your first 1-2 days will probably be in orientation and you won’t need to talk or think much. However, have you tried talking to New Job about it? At my company, everyone would be very sympathetic and would be totally willing to push back the start date a few days or make some accommodations, like reducing the amount of time you need to spend in meetings / talking for the first few days.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Having had my wisdom teeth out (all 4 at once), I can tell you that I did not recover in 4 days. But, a couple of days into a new job is not the best. Can you postpone this until 6 months into your new job?

  120. RMNPgirl*

    Is it crazy to leave a job you love at a company you love?
    Background – I moved out of my home state almost 5 years ago and took a job at a company I really liked. In my time here I’ve been promoted and have been given multiple opportunities to grow in my field.
    However, no one really ever leaves because it’s such a good company so unless someone wins the lottery or is hit by a bus my chances of advancing any more are very low.
    I also haven’t made any friends here. No matter what I’ve tried to get out and form a social life, it just hasn’t happened. I’m friendly with people at work but that hasn’t translated to outside of work. I still have a close group of friends back in my home state. My family, whom I’m very close to is also there.
    I found out about a job opportunity that would bring me back to my home state and would advance my career. I’m struggling to decide what to do. Any advice?

    1. irene adler*

      Have you actually applied to the home state job opportunity?
      Right now, you are a long way from actually getting the job and having to make this decision.
      And you don’t have all the details about this job. So you can’t really make an accurate assessment regarding how well it fits you.
      Why not apply, then worry about leaving the lovable job at the lovable company? Meanwhile, learn all you can about this home state position.

      1. RMNPgirl*

        I did apply a couple days ago because I did think there was no harm in it, nothing may come from it. I guess my bigger question is, when do I know is the right time to leave for my career? I do want to go back to home state at some point, but when do I know it’s the right time?

        1. irene adler*

          Not seeing a down side to the home state job given it is career advancing.

          I do see an issue with staying long-term at current company (even a stellar one!) where you don’t have much opportunity for advancement. That will become a “talking point” -down the line- in job interviews if there’s a lack of job advancement reflected on the resume. People are going to wonder why you didn’t take action to advance your career. You’ll need to come up with a compelling response for why you didn’t do that. Wanting to remain at a good company will only get you so far.

          You do need to be mindful of what you want your career path to be. No one else will do that for you.

          Some would say that when you aren’t learning, growing, advancing in the current job, then it’s time to find a new one.

          You do have the luxury of finding a good next step. So vet that home state job opportunity thoroughly.

    2. Way to the Dawn*

      Hi, I had something similar happen to me. I moved to a brand new city for a job that I absolutely loved and could honestly have stayed there for a while. But I was really lonely and everyone around me at work was starting or had families and just didn’t want to do much outside of work. For me personally, this is what made me realize that there was more to life than a job. Because even with an amazing job at an amazing place, I was still not happy being so far away from friends and family and felt super lonely. I took a job back where my friends and boyfriend were and while I do not like the job as much, I am much happier. And I know now that I am back in the city that I want to be in it will be easier to find other jobs I like more once I am ready to look again (it can be hard applying to jobs when you aren’t local).

  121. Anon Anon*

    I’m not sure if this belongs here or in the weekend post… and, fair warning, this may sound pretty callous.

    How do folks with large families handle bereavement leave?

    My aunt died this week. She lived in another country, and I’m traveling there next weekend and taking two days off. My organization doesn’t have bereavement leave; all our leave is rolled into one (generous) PTO bank. I have plenty of days, so I’m fine there.

    But… between my husband and I, we have two dozen aunts and uncles over age 70, plus one 97-year-old grandfather, and another dozen or so cousins over age 60. (And 40 or so cousins closer to our age.) Five of these folks live in our state; the rest are scattered throughout the Midwest, East Coast, and Canada. I’m staring down thousands of dollars of last-minute flights and dozens of days of unexpected, last-minute leave.

    1. KayEss*

      Honestly, I think you have to embrace the callous. Approach each funeral on its own terms and ask yourself: can you afford to go (both in terms of travel $$$ and PTO)? Do you WANT to go? Forget whether you’re “expected” by faaaaaaaamily to go… do you actually want to, whether because you were close with the deceased or especially close with someone who was (i.e. I probably wouldn’t attend my grandfather’s funeral because I’m not close with him or that side of the family, EXCEPT that I’ll want to be there to support my dad, so I’ll go if it’s at all possible)?

      For the ones where the answer to both questions is “yes,” go. For the ones where one or more answer is “no”… send a heartfelt card, flowers, or other gesture of support as appropriate, and respond “sorry, we can’t make it.”

    2. Rey*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. Funerals are so unpredictable. You are allowed to consider convenience–if the time or location is just too hard, don’t go. Funerals are for the living, not the dead, so decide for yourself the best way to grieve your family members without overburdening yourself. And consider on a case-by-case basis if both you and husband will travel to the funeral, or just one of you.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      So, I have a huge extended family (my mom is one of 11 and my dad is one of 7) so I hear you. Fortunately most of them live near me, but a few are several provinces away. I’ve mostly been letting timing and also closeness (in terms of relationship) dictate which funerals I go to. For some relatives I get compassionate leave, which is paid leave. For some I don’t. In general, for grandparents I’ve been making the flights, for aunts I see once every twenty years I don’t (especially since for aunts/uncles we don’t get paid leave so any day I miss is a $225 hit to my paycheque). Add that on to a $1000 return flight and it’s a lot to take. In other words, I try my best to make it but it doesn’t always work out, especially if there’s a flight involved.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah see, my family rarely travels for funerals. We all understand logistically it’s impossible for our elders and very difficult for those working or with young families.

      My dad did the most traveling when I was younger. We had the means his brothers rarely did.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Death is a fact of life. So are limited resources.

      You handle it the same way people handle it who can’t afford plane tickets, or who have health issues or caregiving obligations that preclude travel.

      You cover what you can as best you can. Sometimes the closest person goes alone. Sometimes nobody gets to go. And you write, or call, or send flowers and memorials, or send restaurant gift cards, or offer to be the person who does the notification “call tree,” stuff like that.

      You do what you can and accept the fact that you can’t do everything. And if you know that you get one trip in the next 2 years, it’s okay to save it for 97 year old Grandma and not use it on Cousin Fred Twice Removed. (Or if Fred was awesome and Grandma’s awful, vice versa.)

    6. 867-5309*

      I’ve wondered about this many times! I am in my late-30s, living and working in another country. My family is in the states. I have 13 aunts and uncles over 65 and three living grandparents, and am very close to my family. I am glad to see thoughts and advice here!

    7. ..Kat..*

      Send a nice sympathy note. This is not callous. The needs of the living should always outweigh the needs of the dead.

  122. DoctorateStrange*

    So, advice needed.

    I was working on a library program since late January in collaboration with a local organization (we’ve had meetings and have corresponded through text and email, including them offering an outreach opportunity for the library in thanks for including them in the program.)

    The other day, my supervisor and the assistant director had a meeting with me where they raised legitimate issues about it (such as being too niche to really work for a public library.) They asked me work with the organization on another program that’s broader, something I will work on either next year or into the fall season of this year.

    I am willing to do that, but how do I contact the local organization and explain all that’s happened and (a) avoid making them feel some of the work they’ve done has been all for naught, (b) explain what happened exactly without throwing my supervisor and the director under the bus, and (c) say a script that makes it clear I still want to do something with them.

    1. it happens*

      It hasn’t been for naught- you’ve developed a relationship that will continue. It sounds like you are trying to expand the work you’re doing with the outside org in order to attract more people- which will be a benefit to the org as well. It’s a matter of framing- you’ve learned from the programming thus far and want to continue and grow the audience, even if it is less specialized. If you go in with the sad trombone they’ll feel the sad trombone…

      1. Libby*

        Yeah, as long as it’s in the same vein of the program you’re currently doing, and not wildly different, I’d go in with something like “We’ve been talking here about the program and planning for next year. I’m so excited! This partnership has been great and I’m looking forward to continuing working with you. One thing we really want to do is expand the reach of the program. A couple of options I was thinking for that is A, B, and C but I’m really looking forward to talking with you all about how we can improve next year’s programming to reach more people.” And then I’d set up a time to meet with them and plan. Maybe bring a nice treat to express your appreciation.

  123. Audrey Puffins*

    So this isn’t really a “what should I do”, it’s more of a “what would you have done”.

    I’ve worked for my current employer for 5+ years, but I still sometimes think about my first Secret Santa there. The arrangement is that everyone draws a name and they should spend £15 on their recipient (enough to get something decent without tipping over into extravagance). In addition, everyone who chooses to participate receives a £15 gift voucher from the company. (These guidelines are all laid out in advance and everyone is free to choose not to participate. Also the organisers keep a list of who’s buying for who, in case someone drops the ball or gets hit by a bus.)

    So I bought a carefully planned out gift for my recipient, wrapped it up, and handed it in. I’d been at the company since February so was still getting to know people (and vice versa) but I think I did okay. The day of the gift exchange dawned – we all received our gift vouchers, and we all received our gifts from our anonymous givers. And I don’t mind telling you, I was disappointed. Instead of a carefully chosen gift, or even something generic but still nice enough, I received a cheap seasonal novelty item. And it was cheap; I quietly looked it up online in case I had grossly underestimated its value, and it couldn’t have cost my Secret Santa more than £5. I even wonder if it’s something they already had in their home that they just wanted to get rid of.

    I put my gift in my desk drawer, and there it languishes to this day. I never said anything to anyone and no one ever asked me about it. But even now, 5+ years later, I sometimes wonder if maybe I should have said something. I got my gift voucher after all, so I basically received back the value that I spent on my recipient, but: would the organisers have wanted to know that one of the participants cheaped out on their buying responsibility yet benefited sixfold compared with the amount they spent?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      No. What are they going to do, go lecture someone about not spending enough money on the voluntary program?

      1. valentine*

        Let this go. You took it more seriously than your gifter, who may have thought of it as “up to £15”. Tell yourself the most compassionate story about it, if need be, then fly and be free.

    2. Rey*

      Don’t say anything about it. If they give something terrible, it reflects poorly on them. If you say something about the terrible thing, it reflects poorly on you, especially in a professional setting where work is the focus. (I think if this happened in a social setting with good friends, I would more seriously consider saying something.)

    4. EnfysNest*

      I think it’s great that your company gives you a voucher for participating – that pretty much evens out what you spent on the gift, and then whatever your coworker gets is a bonus for you. So, yeah, it stinks that you didn’t get as nice a gift as you would have liked and it’s jerky that he sort of cheated the company out of £10 and didn’t give you a better gift, but I’d look at is as that you didn’t *lose* any money and you just had kinda bad luck on your gift for one year. I’d just roll my eyes at the coworker for being rude and let it go. It’s a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things, especially as far as the company is concerned, and, again, since you got the voucher, you didn’t even actually lose anything. Use it as a “lol, this ridiculous guy did this one year” type of story, but don’t let it haunt you or eat at you – to me, it’s just not worth the extra energy to stay upset about it.

    5. foolofgrace*

      You might be better able to let it go if you *let it go* — as in, throw it away and reclaim that space in your desk drawer. Don’t hang on to the negativity.

    6. Deb Morgan*

      Something similar happened to me, and it sucked. I donated the cheap gift as soon as I could. It made me feel slightly better, and I didn’t have to be constantly reminded of my disappointment every time I looked at it.

    7. Dr. Octagon*

      Ummm you need to let this go. If you brought this up now (after 5! years) I would imagine the organizers would look at you like a crazy person.

    8. Earthwalker*

      Figure that Secret Santa is a donation to team-building and seasonal cheer, not an attempt at an even trade of goods. If you get something nice, you’re lucky, but you shouldn’t expect it. Your santa might have meant well but been socially awkward and unsure of what is appropriate.

    9. Nana*

      Don’t continue to let this take up space in your desk…or in your mind! Donate / throw away the item, and never think / speak of it again. Life’s too short for this nonsense.

  124. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Oh my stars and garters, friends, I have survived another week on the Hellmouth and am still of sound enough mind to write about it! And what a week it has been. Espionage! Power plays with people of importance! Shadiness! McGruff! Shall we dive right in?

    Remember when I was shiny and new to the Hellmouth, and was more concerned with the unnatural number of freakish occurrences (fires, lightning strikes), insect and animal weirdness (the BEES, the SQUIRRELS), and hazards to my personal safety (being threatened, being spat on, being cornered by a drunken schizophrenic resident off of his meds, being trapped in the office for an hour by a meth head, being followed to a red light by an angry resident, etc) than with the office and management shenanigans? Yeah, I remember those days, too. Not that that sort of stuff isn’t still happening (I need to figure out how to link a photo so I can show you a photo of the Hellmouth’s new Cat King), but even though we now have an undercover officer staking out the property at night, I had to throw ANOTHER aggressive and abusive resident out of the office this week (not forgiving her actions here at all, but she charged in screaming because McGruff has literally ZERO soft skills and thoroughly antagonized her over the phone when the resident called us with a legitimate issue and then left me to deal with her when the resident Incredible Hulked her way into the office, so… thanks for that, McGruff), and we are getting terrified calls from residents about snakes on the daily, the Boss and McGruff Show seems to be taking center stage weekly now. The gut churning anxiety it produces is NO. BUENO.

    For those who missed the later in the day update to last week’s installment, it seems that my boss very definitely went and took checks out of my bank bag and hid them under a filing chest in my office while I was at lunch last Friday. Thank god I had been through the bank bag right before I went to lunch and knew what was supposed to be in there, thank god I went to run them right when I got back and discovered they were missing, and thank god for McGruff of all people, who literally muscled my desk set apart and uncovered them. FYI, there is absolutely NO WAY for the checks to have been where they were without being physically placed there (and some of the checks were from different partitions of my bank bag and would not have been bundled with the checks that needed to be run, sooooo… yeah, VERY NOT NORMAL OR OKAY OR POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO HAVE JUST “FALLEN DOWN WITHOUT ME NOTICING” LIKE MY BOSS SUGGESTED).

    On Monday I learned that she pulled my good leasing consultant into her office for a secret meeting and ordered him to investigate me and secretly call former residents to see if they got their move out letters and dispositions. This would be pretty upsetting to find out anyway, but… I have been telling her for over a month that I think something hinky has been going on with our outgoing mail (our current regular mail carrier is REALLY TERRIBLE, we are also having issues with our incoming mail) and have even recently started giving her the letters to post from her local post office to make sure that they all actually get out and go where they are supposed to. She actually asked my leasing consultant point blank if they thought I was just not sending them, and ominously intoned that she was going to “start secretly counting the stamps in my drawer.” For the record, I have been begging her for new stamps for 2 months and have had to start buying my own. On Wednesday I also learned that she has started complaining to my consultant that I am not performing a specific task that SHE PERSONALLY TOLD ME TO STOP DOING, so… knives are out.

    But that’s just the stuff affecting me personally. We’ve got major property drama happening this week, as we have been RED TAGGED by the fire marshal. And oh, what an event that was! We were told on Tuesday (the day before my boss was supposed to go on vacation for a few days) that it was going to happen due to things that I am 99.999999999999% sure that she has personally known about for a few MONTHS. Of course, she immediately threw a fit and had meeting with the fire marshal scheduled for the very next day. She confidently assured us that this was “all going to be taken care of” and that “being red tagged was not a thing that would actually happen to us” and she was going to “get this all sorted out.” Her plan was to blame the fire company our property uses for being incompetent and not informing us of the issues (that again, I am 99.999999999999% sure that she already knew about). Well. That did NOT go the way that she thought it would.

    Come Wednesday morning she was in the office, dressed in a power outfit, and loudly complaining about how she had to stay until 10pm the previous night and how she hoped the fire marshal would show up sooner rather than later so she could wrap this up quickly because it was messing with the things she had scheduled for the day (remember, she was supposed to be on vacation). I notified her when the fire marshal walked in and was instructed to tell him that she had someone in her office (she did not, although she quickly pulled a maintenance guy in there so she had a body to walk out) and that he could be seated because he was going to need to wait about 10 minutes. Going by the fire marshal’s face he was not thrilled with this… nor were the representatives of the fire company that we use, who the fire marshal had brought along without telling my boss. I’m not going to lie, her face when she saw the large gathering was kind of great. The meeting lasted over an hour and was… uh, highly contentious. We could hear both the boss AND the fire company people yelling loudly for huge chunks of it, as well as the awesome fire marshal repeatedly dead panning “no, the property is being red tagged, that is the law,” over and over. He was very Captain Holt-ish, and it was awesome. Result: Property was red tagged. At this writing the property is STILL red tagged. And even though my boss left for her vacation (but due to NEW drama with the red tagging involving the maintenance supervisor setting up a sprinkler inspection that starts today and my boss having a FIT and legitimately sending everyone text messages non-stop with only a one to five minute break in between them for over a 3 hour period yesterday afternoon, we have been ominously told that she may be in today). She is also claiming that she is calling the police chief and calling in personal favors and that the red tags will be cleared up and… nope, not how that is going to work, boss.

    And then there is McGruff. Ah, McGruff. What can I say? She remains racist, worthless, work avoidant, and insane. She is completely incapable of following simple directives and she lacks the common sense given to tiny green apples. We actually had to stop her from busting up into the fire marshal meeting (while raised voices could clearly be heard) because she had someone on the line who asked to speak to our boss. She was going to walk straight in and inform the boss that she was transferring the call to her. Einstein she is not.

    That same day she informed us (and every single person who walked into our office, regardless of who they were or if she knew them) that she had spoken the police officer handling her identify theft case and that the credit card thief had been identified. The culprit, she informed everyone, was an local school teacher (and not the couple that she stalked, photographed, had added to a large number of medical calling lists, and openly considered blackmailing) and that their arrest would be happening the next day. The next day came and she once again forced anyone who came into the office to listen to the story and showed everyone screenshots that the officer had sent her of the lady using her card at Walgreens, told everyone that she had found and stalked the lady and her son on FB the previous night and that the lady was a special needs teacher, that she had cancer in September, and that the lady had just had a photo shoot for a local hospital because she was going to be a cancer survivor spokesperson for them. McGruff then gleefully proclaimed her excitement about the arrest, the inevitable loss of her teaching license, and the fact that she could possibly get two years in jail… at which point McGruff would loudly and angrily intone that she thought the lady would “play the cancer card” to reduce her sentencing. So yeah, super profesh.

    She has also been having non-stop tantrums and meltdowns because of: the phones ringing too much (they are not), being told she can’t work late without managerial approval and no she can not just tell me that she is going to do it (she also does not have enough work to need to do this anyway), being told that she can not work through her required lunch break instead of clocking out, being told that she needs to finish the online training classes that were supposed to be completed in her first week (she is finishing up week five) because the boss is texting and ordering her to (they are still not completed), and being told “Ack, no, please stop running that application, monthly closeout is still processing!” (she had been told no less than three times that day and several times the day before that applications absolutely could not be run during closeout). The tantrums involve stomping (barefoot one time), yelling, F-bombs, and all sorts of great stuff. SUPER. PROFESH.

    And as this is probably the longest Hellmouth entry yet, it is probably time to cut off. Happy Friday, everyone! Cross your fingers that Boss stays away so I can continue getting actual work done without having to simultaneously foil evil plots!

    1. Youth*

      “dressed in a power outfit”

      So tell us, what does one wear for a meeting/yell sesh with a fire marshal?

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Power red lipstick, winged black eyeliner, and a severe black and white getup.

        2. Bee's Knees*

          For a very long moment, I thought the end of that was going to be black and white hair. And I thought, oh dear Lord, she’s working for Cruella de Ville.

      2. irene adler*

        Thinking something flame retardant.
        And the only article of clothing that comes to mind that is such, are children’s pajamas.

      3. kittymommy*

        It’s only a power outfit if you have the fake glasses with it to project authority.

    2. Restructure Hellion*

      Wow. I feel so sorry for you having to work in the Hellmouth – and even more so for the residences who have to *live* in one. The red-flag fire thing conjures up that London high rise fire that killed dozens of people. Kudos to the fire marshal for enforcing the law here.

      Also, not to mix show metaphors but McGruff should know not to mess with cancer-stricken teachers who turn to crime…..

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I’m making the same assumption, and thank heavens for that fire marshal. Also wondering how bad a place has to be to be red tagged. Off to consult google.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh yeah. We are on FIRE WATCH, which means that until everything is up to code and squared away we have a person here 24-7… and have to pay $35 per hour for that. And our property is (surprise) not currently profitable and is already severely over budget. I don’t know if the boss is going to get in trouble for this with our corporate office, but I girl can dream…

        3. Jaid*

          Wouldn’t it be something if a corporate employee was following this and feeling bad for you…not realizing for whom you work.

        4. Gerald*

          I think this is at a point where we should start taking bets on who will last longer at the Hellmouth – the OP or the boss…

        5. That Girl From Quinn's House.*

          My (overpriced faux-high end) apartment complex was on FIRE WATCH last year because a sprinkler pipe burst during a cold snap over Christmas week while they were doing some construction to the common space that was affecting the fire alarm system.

          They had a firewatch patrol person on duty and requested that we be mindful and vigilant about fire safety for the next few weeks. It was slightly irritating but it didn’t affect us much because it’s an otherwise safe and well-run building.

    5. kittymommy*

      I’m gonna need an update on this: “She is also claiming that she is calling the police chief and calling in personal favors and that the red tags will be cleared up and… nope, not how that is going to work, boss.”

      because I will give you my job if this woman has the (political) juice to pull this off. I mean, no offense to your complex, but she’s the property manager of a (I’m guessing not luxury) apartment complex… no one is pulling favors for her. You don’t waste that type of capital unless it’s for a spouse, parent, or affair.

      And as a mommy to many kitties, I kinda want a picture of the cat king….

      1. Antilles*

        I’d lay money that her ‘friend’ the police chief is actually just doing his job. See, he’s my friend because I can pick up the phone and he’ll show up when I call! We’re best buds!

        2. SignalLost*

          I can do that too. I can call 911 and make it rain police officers. Do I get to call the police chief my friend too?

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Knowing what Terry Pratchett meant by a Rat King, I’m kind of afraid!

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It was not pulled off. And because the fire company didn’t have the parts they needed to fix the fire panels that were damaged in the last lightning strike, we will remain red tagged until Monday at the earliest. Which is when boss will be back. Weeeee!

        I’ll try to link to some pictures of the Cat King when I finally make it home. He is MAGNIFICENT.

    6. Turtlewings*

      So, I’m going to be moving in a few months and I’m wondering, what signs can I look for that will help me avoid living in a place like the Hellmouth? (Also, bless your way with words and I hope you escape soon.)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh! I can help with this! First of all, if you’re moving to a new state, it doesn’t hurt to look into how the laws might differ from where you are right now. Also, if at all possible, TOUR! If you set up the tours in advance (and don’t show up 30 minutes to 4 hours early) you will get super bonus points with the person touring you. Check out recent online reviews, but always remember that crazies and people who maybe are angry about having to pay late fees when they are legitimately late leave negative reviews, too–if a property has over 70% positive reviews and most of those reviews seem legitimate, that’s usually a pretty good sign. And when you tour, go on a weekday if you can so you can get a feel for the staff and general office vibe. Are they friendly, professional, and organized? That’s a good sign! Ask a lot of questions about maintenance, and be sure to find out if they have 24 hour emergency maintenance, if they will always come out if the a/c and heat are broken, etc. Make sure you find out what the process is if you wind up having to unexpectedly break your lease–do they require a certain amount of notice that you will be responsible through, is there a buyout fee or will you get stuck with the accelerated rent for the remainder of your lease term, etc. And pay attention to how the grounds and amenities look, too.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Sorry hon but I think you’re outnumbered here. A lot of us anxiously await them each Friday. If you’re not interested, just scroll past.

        1. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

          Yep. These updates make my Fridays. I’m always excited for ne new episode

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’m enjoying them immensely. You know how to collapse replies, right?

      2. I Never Comment*

        I’m just adding to the chorus here. These updates are fantastic. Please keep them up. Every Friday, I search specifically for your update to see what kind of craziness is happening.

      3. TurkeyLurkey*

        Jeez. Uh. This is kind of mean spirited. Her posts fall under the open thread criteria, and there are plenty of other posts for you to read, so… que?

      4. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        I think you are very outnumbered. These are the first thing I look for on Friday.

      5. Agree*

        You are not alone. I wish Hellmouth the best, but I don’t think this is the appropriate place for this sort of content.

        I come here to read about and discuss a variety of work related issues. For me, it’s very off-putting to have to scroll through a huge block of text every week devoted to a single person’s work drama.

        1. Anonforthisforobviousreasons*

          Amen to this. These updates are getting ridiculous. Start a blog already.

          1. CheeseNurse*

            I thought Hellmouth was starting a story blog? I think it’s a great idea. Fans can get more content and interact more directly with her throughout the week.

            My problem with the continued story posts every week is that I don’t have a great memory, especially for people in massive internet comment sections, so when I stumble on a post like Hellmouth’s I have no idea what the backstory is or who the characters in the story are. Actually, that’s another good reaosn for a blog! It could have a glossary etc.

      6. Ask a Manager* Post author

        If you don’t want to read them, please collapse the thread and scroll on by. There’s no expectation that every post on the open thread will be interesting to everyone! Hellmouth’s posts are well within the rules (and clearly fascinating to many).

        1. Agree*

          Even collapsed it’s still a massive block of text in the original post to scroll through every single week.

          If you say the posts are well within the rules, then fair enough – that’s your call, but I do think this is a bit different than finding the occasional post (of a typical length) offputting.

          1. Electric Sheep*

            But the open thread is so long as it is with all the comments that scrolling is going to have to happen anyway, so the impact of one long post seems marginal to me.

      7. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I adore these updates. IWOAH, I am so, so sorry that you work on a hellmouth. Was a special needs teacher with cancer actually arrested for identity theft and credit card fraud? Or was was this another delusion?

    8. Karen from Finance*

      Your writing style is getting better and better with each of these.

      Tell us about the Cat King! We want pictures! You can upload a picture to a free service like TinyPic and it will provide a url you can paste here. Links are allowed in these comments, they’ll just go through moderation first.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I will post some pictures after I make it home tonight. He is fluffy amazingness.

        1. I work on a Hellmouth*

          Behold! The Cat King of the Hellmouth!

          http://tinypic.com/r/zo7wnq/9

          He can not be captured, he will not be tamed. He is the lord and master of all he surveys, and even the squirrels give him wide berth. He can frequently be found lounging in low hanging tree branches while delivering death glares. He is rumored to purposefully frighten small children.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I think I might be getting into the home stretch! I just didn’t want to add on any more length since the update was so, um, long (and apparently really bothersome to at least one person). But yeah, I’ve still got three applications in process with Local Big University, had a friend recommend me for an Executive Assistant position at a very nice and non-crazy company, and had a nice hiring manager that the same friend knows go over my resume with me and also give me some tips for transitioning into HR, which was so helpful and kind! I’m feeling a lot less bleak, especially compared to last week. I also saw a few more interesting job postings go up today that I’ll be applying to once I get home. Huzzah!

    10. The Ginger Ginger*

      I come read your update every week. Hang in there! I can’t wait for the day you can walk out and on to your new job.

    11. Free Meerkats*

      “We actually had to stop her from busting up into the fire marshal meeting”

      WHY?!?!? I would have just sat back and watched the fireworks.

      Speaking of fireworks, we had a company here with a fire department required firewatch (due to piled wood waste that was spontaneously heating up) last summer. He decided about 2 AM he needed food and left to go to the local minimart for a burrito and was surprised when half the firetrucks in the city passed by. That fire smoldered for almost a week. Also, he was fired with prejudice.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Hah! If I had let her, I would have been the one to get into trouble for not stopping her! She had to walk through my office in order to get to the door.

        Oh my gosh, that sounds terrible! I hope no one was hurt! And that it was at least tastier than the average minimart burrito…

  125. Competent, I swear!*

    I might be too low down the comments for this, but hey, it’s worth a shot. :) I’m attending an interview next Friday. Hive mind: give me examples of competency-based interview questions under the “customer service” theme, please!

    1. NotAMadScientist*

      Tell us about a time you had to handle a “problem” customer. Alternatively, if no experience tell us how you would handle a customer yelling about the service they received?

      If you were pulled into situation were your coworker is telling you one thing but the customer is saying something else how would you address it? Walk us through what you would do and why.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Fun game!
      Tell me about a time when you turned an unhappy customer into a delighted customer.
      What do you do when you don’t know how to help a customer?
      What would you do if a frustrated customer complained about a widely known problem with the company’s product?
      What’s the best customer service you’ve ever received? Why?
      Is there a difference between customer service and customer support?

      Good luck!!

    3. Peachkins*

      -Forget the exact question I was asked, but think of some good examples of multitasking.
      -Name a time when you went above and beyond your normal duties for a customer.

    5. n*

      How would you handle a request you didn’t know the answer to? (Question is basically trying to see how you approach problem-solving.)

    7. Queenie*

      Tell us about an experience with a customer you feel did not go well for you and how you would change that now.
      Tell us about a time you yourself experienced poor customer service and what you would do if you were in that persons shoes
      Tell us about a time you experienced fantastic customer service and what made it stick out for you

    8. Competent, I swear!*

      Thank you so much for all the responses! Having a lot of “fun” this weekend matching my experiences to the questions!! x

  126. Runner's High*

    About a year ago, my company moved into a newly remodeled building, and one of the perks is that we now have two small locker rooms (one for each gender). The locker rooms have five or six small cubbies (no way to lock them) and a single person shower. There’s really no way that more than one person can be in the room at a time, but this is almost never an issue. Since moving into the new space, I’ve been running a couple of times per week on my lunch, and I LOVE IT. I have a pretty great job, and this is honestly one of the biggest drivers of satisfaction for me: I love getting to take a break for 45 minutes every couple of days, stop staring at a screen, and get my workout in during work hours; it’s great!

    Since there’s never anyone else in the locker room with me, I really don’t have any idea of how many people use the space on a daily basis, but for the last year or so, almost all of the lockers have been empty when I come in and I’ve assumed I’m one of a few, if not the only person, who regularly uses the room. Now that the weather is starting to warm up, I’ve noticed that all of the lockers have clothes, towels, shoes, etc. in them all of the time. I typically keep my running clothes in a backpack under my desk, then change and put my work clothes in a locker for the 30 or so minutes I’m running, then throw the now sweaty clothes and wet towel in my backpack and take it to my car. It seems like others, though, are keeping their workout clothes and towels in the locker full time, as if it’s their personal locker. This doesn’t leave any space open for the rest of us. The last couple of times I’ve run, I’ve had to either put my work clothes out in the open for all to see, or put them in one of the lockers that already has stuff in it.

    Any advice on how to approach anonymous people using shared space as personal space? I don’t want to be the person who leaves a note, but since there’s no real way to find out who is doing it (absent spending an entire day staking out the locker room), I’m at a loss. Thanks!

    1. LCL*

      This is a case of your job needs a policy. Someone has to take responsibility for the locker assignments. I got stuck doing that here, for awhile. Whoever does it will have to have management’s support. What your policy will look like depends on the amount of personnel that want a locker vs how many lockers there are. Start with a survey. Are the spaces cubbies (no doors) or lockers (doors).

      1. Armchair Analyst*

        This is a great role for the Facility Manager – your landlord. A sign is helpful, or a coin-operated lock, for example, indicates that each locker is short-term only.

    2. BadWolf*

      Yeah, I think you need to check what the policy/intention of the cubbies are. Just daily use or is assignment an option. Then they probably need ot post something (Daily use or How to be assigned a space). Then you’d want to ask, “Hey, it looks like people are using them as a personal locker, what should we do?”

      Otherwise…bring a box, write “Lost and found” on it and clear out cubbies. Act innocent. (Probably not this one)

      1. foolofgrace*

        Oh I don’t know … I kind of like that one. But then my first reaction was for her to take the stuff out of one of the cubbies, put it on a chair or something, and use the cubby. (Don’t do that, either. This kind of entitled behavior really irks me.)

        1. Not A Manager*

          Why is it acting entitled to facilitate something that you are, in fact, entitled to? Assuming that the purpose of the lockers is short-term use while one is actually in the locker room or exercising, then people who park their stuff there full time are actually not entitled to do that.

          I would absolutely remove the items and carefully stack them in the safest/most logical place that I could find.

    3. Hallowflame*

      Don’t approach the locker-hoggers, go to whoever manages the building and let them know what’s going on. It is then up to them to set a policy and enforce it.
      I saw this happen a lot at a former job where we had a small gym and locker rooms for employees. These were lockers that you could put your own lock on, so there wasn’t even the option of g an occupied locker or moving someone else’s stuff. The clearly stated policy was that lockers were for use only while you were using the gym facilities, but reminders had to be sent out about once a quarter because people are always going to try to take advantage.

      1. Runner's High*

        Instant Update: minutes after I posted this, I was in a meeting called by our department VP, and we’ll be moving into a different building in the same complex. She specifically mentioned that we’ll have our own locker rooms and showers. Since I am a gender minority in my department, I don’t foresee this being an issue in the next couple of months. Yay for good karma!

  127. Trying To Be Polite*

    Is it rude not to state a person’s name in the opening of email?

    I recently sent an email to a coworker, basically giving her information she has asked for, and continuing a previous conversation. I started the email with “Hi” and continued from there. In her response, she answered “Please, my name is ______.” I’ve never had anyone react this way before, but I’m just wondering if I am missing something.

    1. Mediamaven*

      If you don’t work with them regularly then yes, you should use their name. But it does sound like someone feeling overly sensitive about something small.

    2. Murphy*

      That’s a really odd reaction. I’ve never seen that before and I don’t think you did anything wrong.

      I find when I’m going back and forth with someone, we tend to drop the greeting altogether once we get a few emails in.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      WOW. That is weird. In my first email I use their name, but if we are responding back and forth I just type my response and not even.

    4. Bunny Girl*

      That’s a weird reaction. 99.9% of my emails between coworkers just start with “Hello!” I think as long as I had one form of greeting it’s fine.

      I do sort of hate when people send me an email that says “Hello FullName” because I never introduce myself to people using my full name, and my email signature says the name I go by. And when they keep doing that after knowing it I want to say Look bud…

    5. PJM*

      No, it is not rude. Emails between coworkers tend to be casual. Your coworker is being very picky

    6. fposte*

      I confess I get weirded out by “Hi” with no name–it looks spammy and impersonal-pretending-to-be-personal. But I also don’t think about it a lot. It sounds like this bugged your co-worker more than it would most people.

    7. BadWolf*

      I usually use someone’s name, but if I’m unsure how they’d like to be addressed (Michael or Mike or which name is their first name) then I leave off a name rather than get it wrong. If I get a reply, then I look how they signed off so I can use the right name in the future.

      It doesn’t weird me out to receive a “Hi” — I would prefer it over spelling my name wrong (which happens often).

    8. Suggestion*

      I write emails this way all the time, especially if we are more familiar with each other. In the context you mentioned, it is not rude. Your coworker is overreacting. *eye roll*

      I also address an entire group with “Hello” with no name but those emails are obvious it is going to a large group. If there is a client team that I am addressing, I usually will address it with the person who emailed me first and add & team. For example “Hello Susan & Team.” I am not sitting there and writing “Hello Susan, Bob, Jane, Mary, John…”

    9. Jules the 3rd*

      I disagree, her request is not that weird.

      Many offices have ‘just hi’ as a norm, so you weren’t rude to do that, but there’s tons of reasons that someone might want their name used in professional communications – she might just be from offices where ‘Hi Name’ is a strong norm, or there might be gender / class / race stuff going on. She’s used her words, politely, just accept them and move on. It’s only a big deal if she has to ask you again.

      At least you’re not calling her ‘baby’ or ‘sweetie’!

    10. BRR*

      For replies that aren’t the first reply and happen quickly, I often times drop any salutation. If I include a hi or hello or good morning, then I always follow up with a name. I find just hi a little strange but this would certainly not be worth bringing up. In general I try to take the stance of giving people the benefit of the doubt over tone in email.

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      She’s welcome to be bugged by it, but it really doesn’t rise to the level of something where she has standing to tell you to alter it. You’re not doing anything wrong and “always address me with my name” is weird in 99.99% of offices.

    12. Aggretsuko*

      I have been bit in the ass by this one before. Always use the damn name because some people Lose Their MINDS about this.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It’s unusual to many people but look at it this way…. now you know a way to soothe her. Which has a benefit for you –the next time you have to ask her something, if she objects you can ask if it’s really that much harder than you always using her name event though it’s not your standard for email.

    14. afiendishthingy*

      That’s a really weird thing to jump on someone for. You were continuing a previous conversation. She knows who you are. You know her name. You didn’t do anything wrong, but now you know this is her weird quirk and you won’t do it again.

  128. just a small town girl*

    I provide administrative support to seven people, two of which are nominally part-time(but one works 40+ hour weeks sometimes) and two of which are technically only part-time my responsibility. I also have another project that is entirely mine that is not administrative in duty but was given to me during a reorg(it came from someone who was an exec admin, and was given to me, a lowly “regular” admin).

    One of my people was recently promoted from an SME to Marketing Director and insisted/advocated to both my boss(her old boss) and her new boss (the exec director) that I stay her support person as I have extensive experience with graphic design and familiarity with the programs used(Adobe suite mostly), and the request was granted. I appreciate it because I like working with this person and I enjoy doing more creative-minded stuff like designing things, but I’m also starting to feel like I’ve fallen into the trap of showing skill and being given more work and more duties that are not in the job without any recognition/promotion/compensation. We have several levels of Admin staff, and I’m still stuck on the bottom rung despite technically being admin to a director(two levels up from mine on the support staff scale) and performing part of an exec admin’s job duties(four levels up from me). But I also still do the “regular” admin stuff, and the rest of my programs/staff I support are “regular” SMEs. I don’t know if a case can be made that I AM worth more/a promotion up the ladder.

    All this on top of the fact that last year we lost two secretaries and their positions were never re-filled due to budgets, so everyone got more work put on them and we hired several new SMEs, which means all the support staff’s work has effectively doubled. So it’s clear there’s not a lot of value given to support staff, and the only raises we get are based on how long we’ve been here and charted out on a scale, so that’s not much of an option either for me.

    I’m trying to get my nerve up to broach the topic with my boss at some point before August, when raises are given out, but she’s been very transparent about money being tight right now, so I don’t know if anything can even come of it. I just am starting to feel like I’m being taken advantage of because of my non-admin skills.

    2. Rey*

      It sounds like you have a good relationship with your boss, as she insisted/advocated for you to come with her because of your experience, which highlights that she knows you bring specific (technical?) skills to the role that not every admin has. So do your research-Alison has several posts about salary stuff and negotiating-and then talk to your boss. Make a case that the work you are doing is higher than the level you are being paid and your title. This at least opens the conversation and lays the groundwork, instead of staying with the status quo right now. Don’t be nervous about it-salary and negotiating is a regular part of regular jobs (although toxic jobs might respond badly) and you have to advocate for yourself in this way if you want to get paid what you are worth. You’ve got this!

      2. just a small town girl*

        She’s not technically my boss, though she is *a boss* in her new role. That’s part of what makes it harder because she’s not my supervisor or boss on paper in any way and I’m just support for her, and she’s now in her own little mini department not under my current and her former boss. So I also have to figure out a way to sell it to my current boss who doesn’t really see that side of things and is very unaware of “how the sausage is made”.

        1. Rey*

          Thanks for explaining that hierarchy. If your current boss doesn’t really understand the extend of your sausage making skills, I would focus on compiling a really extensive portfolio, whether that’s a physical portfolio or just a list of your projects and accomplishments. Use hard numbers as much as possible to illustrate the volume of what you did and the profit or importance of that project to the organization. And if possible, provide comparable numbers of how the raise/title you want relates to other organizations, to demonstrate the industry norm.

  129. vacationissues*

    Has anyone quit their job over PTO issues? Lately my boss has asked me to move PTO or reschedule or just flat out ignored my requests for days. It makes me feel like a child.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I’ve never had to, but I think that when a job starts seriously encroaching on your personal life, it’s time to leave. I’d tackle this first by asking your boss about it and maybe even going to HR, but I think it’s totally valid to quit over it.

    2. LCL*

      How much PTO are you requesting? How much is being approved? How much have you taken in the last 6 months?

      1. vacationissues*

        Currently I’m asking for 2 days (a Friday, Monday) and she has asked if I would reschedule because she “feels” like it will be busy. I think for comparison, it’s important to know that my coworkers are all going on vacation without these issues. Our company has three offices that she oversees and I run one office. The version of me at our second office is taking 2.5 weeks off this month (spread out) and she didn’t get this sort of push back when she asked.

        I am a good employee. Like my boss has told me pretty recently that I’m doing a great job so I don’t think this is due to that. Previously she had pushed back due to coverage issues (we had one resignation and one unfortunate termination which left me alone in my office) so my coworkers at the other site offered to cover so I could take off. When I submitted my newest request, I had already arranged for coworkers to come to my site to make sure there’s enough staff although I will have replaced both the empty positions by then. I asked my peers at the other site if they thought it was inappropriate for me to take off now and they have all been supportive and said I should be allowed to take the two days.

        My last one was a week in February which had been previously approved. My boss heavily insinuated that I did not ask for permission (although I had) and asked me to reschedule. I politely refused. I do an annual trip with my mother and I couldn’t reschedule it.

        In the past six months, I have not taken any more PTO than anyone else in our group. A lot of people have actually taken more. I’ve probably taken two weeks total, maybe three. We earn about 25 days per year. I currently have 140+ hours – partly because it’s so awkward to ask and get time approved.

        We also are not allowed to take PTO from May to July at all due to the type of work we do. Things like this just make me wonder when I am allowed to take off, if at all. If I make sure everything will be covered while I’m away, what else do I have to do to be allowed to enjoy a vacation?

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          “How can I get a vacation” sounds like something to ask the boss: “Hey, I have 140 PTO hours built up; I need to start using them. Let’s sit down with a calendar and work out how I can use, say, half those hours outside of the blackout dates. I already have coverage for X days, to make it easier…”

          Maybe if she realizes you have 15 days backlogged and can’t get vacation approved, she’ll realize that there’s a problem…

          1. Antilles*

            I agree, and Jules’ phrasing here is crucial. It’s not asking “can I please take time off?” (her immediate response will be no), it’s “I need to use this PTO, let’s figure out how to best arrange it”. You’re presuming of course it’s going to be fine to take time off; we’re just dealing with logistics.
            But then to game-plan this out, what do you do if she pushes back during that discussion or refuses to engage? Based on how quickly she shuts it down, her phrasing, and her overall personality, you have a few options here depending on her personality and your temperament:
            1.) Cheerfully acknowledge her concern and push forward with the conversation anyways. “Right, I know we’re busy, that’s why I’m planning so far in advance!”
            2.) Confusedly push back in a way that requires her to admit she’s being ridiculous. “Wait, are you saying there’s no way for us to arrange for me to have even a single day off at any point in the next two months?” The trick here is to sound genuinely confused rather than confrontational, as though you’re not understanding what she’s saying. You’d be amazed how often this works, because even irrational people will often sheepishly admit that no, actually, that’s not really what I meant.
            3.) Just realize it’s not happening. If her immediate response is strongly against, then you might have to figure another option or give up entirely.

            1. vacationissues*

              I wanted to provide a mini-update: I had emailed her on Friday explaining that I had found coverage and that I thought it was important to have time off for my well being. She didn’t respond but sent me five emails over the weekend about different things (which I felt sent a message of its own). So to her last email, I threw in “By the way, have you had a chance to review my email regarding my PTO request?”

              An hour later, she sent me an email saying I could take the two days but I have to take my laptop and be prepared to work if something comes up and that we need to have a discussion when she sees me next. I felt the email was very chastising, like how dare I push for time off when she “feels” we are so busy (we are not, if we were busy, I wouldn’t be on here!). So I’m sure how that’s how the conversation will go. In the meantime, I updated my resume over the weekend and am looking online. Maybe I can find something else. It’s sad because I really like this job but she’s such a terrible manager (not just over PTO, with everything) and it’s starting to affect my emotional state which isn’t ok. I spent the whole weekend being very anxious and you know she wasn’t doing the same!

        2. Iris Eyes*

          One weird thing is that she somehow has certain metrics she is supposed to meet regarding how much PTO her reports are budgeted to have per month (which is really stupid if you have blackout months) since there are others who have had a lot of time off recently that might be causing the issues.

        3. Wishing You Well*

          If you have an HR, talk to them about being prevented from using all the benefits due you. Ask a Manager has precise language for this. You might want to discuss that you’re being treated differently from your peers. Also, make all your PTO requests in writing from now on. Keep records. Best of Luck.

  130. AwkwardTurtle*

    I live on the east coast and have been trying to get back to the west coast by applying to jobs. A job I interviewed for (I spoke with them 3 times) started checking references last week and I’m feeling a lot of anxiety as I’m in temporary housing for the moment. I have a standing housing option that I may have to sign tonight but what if I get the job and then have to struggle to find a replacement for said housing? I know that checking references is a positive sign but it’s definitely no guarantee for an offer.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I was in the exact same position this time last year – I was on the east coast, desperate to get home to the west coast, and was a finalist for a dream job but no guarantee I’d be successful, while facing a deadline to find a place to live. In my case, my husband and I did a lot of soul searching and because my then-current job was ok and had some room for growth, we decided that we would stay where we were for another year or two if the new job didn’t pan out. About two weeks before I had to sign a lease on a new apartment, I notified the job I was interviewing for that if their process dragged on past Date X I’d have to remove myself from consideration. Fortunately, I ended up with an offer.

      I know it might be too late for you to do that since your housing decision is due tonight, but don’t give up hope! You have to proceed as if you won’t get the job, so find housing if you need to – but maybe try to also figure out if there are non-binding housing options, or spread the word that you might be looking for a subletter. Good luck!

  131. Beatrice*

    About ten months ago, I took a transfer/promotion to a new job in a very different field in a different part of the same very large company I’ve worked at for more than a decade. I’m struggling harder than usual lately with imposter syndrome and a little bit of (totally unfounded) anxiety that my boss and peer managers secretly hate me and wish I wasn’t here. It sucks :(

    The crazy thing is, my old job was toxic, and I think this one is a lot healthier, but I think that’s why I’m having trouble. In my old job, it was very clear where I stood with people – if they hated my guts and everything I stood for and were doing everything in their power to work against me, they were telling me about it to my face. People were blunt and straightforward and sometimes very rude. Where I am now, people value positive relationships much more, and everyone is kind and friendly, but they’re not always straightforward and they don’t always tackle problems head-on. It’s much harder to figure out where I stand with people. I’ve adapted to the culture pretty well, but the fear that everyone secretly thinks I’m the worsttttt persists.

    I accidentally confessed to my boss in my review (one of the best reviews I’ve ever gotten, accompanied by a raise I know he had to go to bat for) that sometimes I worry that he regrets hiring me – the words just tumbled out of my mouth before I could stop them. He looked surprised and said he was glad to have me, and asked me if I was happy in my role – I am! I’m just having a hard time reading people and it’s feeding and growing anxiety problems that I previously had under control. He’s been making a concerted effort now, the last few days, to be extra kind and friendly to me, which just makes me feel worse about confessing what I did. I’m not in a very good head space right now at all!

    1. Rey*

      Congrats on leaving toxic job, and getting an awesome review and raise! Alison has written about how toxic jobs can really affect your view of what’s normal, so don’t forget that you’re not unusual here (I’ll post the links in a sec.) If you aren’t already, I hope you can work with a therapist on your anxiety and come up with some strategies so that you feel better.

    2. Not A Manager*

      Did you happen to relocate as well? If so, you might want to aggressively cultivate a local friend, hopefully one who is also a professional but not in your same company, and get them to act as “behavior translator” for you.

      If not, then I’d suggest two things. First, maybe some short-term therapy or other support so this doesn’t spiral. Second (and I know this sounds very bizarre) – try taking an acting class or an improv class. Whatever is going on in your head, what you want to convey to the people at your work is that you are fully occupying space that you have a right to be in. “Fake it till you make it” is obviously facile advice, but it can be helpful. “Fake it so your don’t undermine yourself,” or “fake it so you don’t make yourself feel worse,” can be surprisingly useful.

    3. JustAskingForAFriend*

      I agree with the therapy suggestion. Your company may even have an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) that offers counseling as a benefit. My EAP actually specifically asks if you’d like a counselor with experience in career counseling!
      Also – and disclaimer: if you disagree with this next thought please just disregard and let’s not get into an argument over medication – If you are open to talking with your doctor about medication to help with your anxiety, do it. You can make an appointment and just say it’s to explore treatments for anxiety/depression (they go hand in hand). If even making the appointment makes you feel a weight lift off your shoulders that’s a good indication that talking/medication can help. Mental health is health – you would not forego a cast for a broken leg. Many medications will not impact your thinking (the foggy head thing) but will give you more balance so you can cope & rationalize more easily. Again – if you disagree and find taking medications like this unappealing, that’s your opinion. I just want to share that it’s a viable option and works for many people (me included).

  132. Willow*

    Around eight months ago, my boss’s husband died. She is, not surprisingly, still sad (somewhat depressed, though she refuses to admit that) and not coping particularly well some days. She often comes to work late, leaves early or is unproductive. I am massively sympathetic to what she is going through. However, we are a tiny team, and since I’m the only person with any overlap with her job, I’m the one who has had to pick up all the slack. And after eight months of working overtime and barely taking any time off, I’m not doing well. I’m tired, stressed out and, this week, I’ve started getting horrible headaches and nausea. I just can’t do it anymore. Talking to my boss doesn’t get me anywhere; she still thinks our group should be working at the same pace as we were a year ago, even though she’s only doing a fraction of the workload as she did then. I spoke to grandboss several months ago, to alert her when we were going to miss some big deadlines, but now that’s not really an option anymore (she’s deadling with her own massive personal issues and isn’t really around right now). I know that there aren’t any easy answers here. But does anyone have suggestions for how to cope with this? I’m at a loss and can’t see a way out (other than quitting).

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think there’s an easy way out if boss is the problem and grandboss is out of the picture. Is there somebody actually running the place? Can you talk to them? Is there a great-aunt-boss at the same level of grandboss who might be able to help? Think of this not so much as “Help me” but “Our department is spiraling out and you all need to know.”

      And that is what’s happening, and you can’t be the only thing to stop it from happening, especially long-term. So unfortunately I think you do need to start looking; even if there’s an intervention it’s likely going to be a while before it happens and longer before it takes useful effect.

    2. Ladylike*

      I would recommend speaking directly to your boss in a very compassionate, but straightforward manner. She knows she’s not being productive, and while she may be struggling to pull herself out of it, she shouldn’t be shocked or angry if you bring it up. She may feel guilty, but it may also be the nudge she needs to get more emotional support/therapy/whatever. You’re not going to harm her by reminding her of her loss (she thinks of it daily already), and you can’t be responsible for carrying the load indefinitely. I would say something like this:

      “Boss, I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through recently. I can’t imagine being in your shoes. And I want to help however I can, but unfortunately, I’m struggling with picking up so much extra work, and it’s affecting my health (insert health details if you want). I don’t know if you realize it, but I’ve been covering (list some specific major tasks) in addition to my regular workload. I need to get back to working a more reasonable schedule until I feel better. Do you think we could bring in extra support until we’re both back to 100%?”

      1. foolofgrace*

        I agree but instead of saying “I need to get back to working a more reasonable schedule”, say “I am going to be going back on a regular schedule to preserve what’s left of my health. Would you like a list of the items I won’t be able to take care of anymore?” What’s the worst that can happen? With you doing so much, they’re not in a position to fire you.

      2. Office Gumby*

        This.
        You can’t solve the problems on your own. You can’t sustain this work level much longer. Something is going to give out on this, and it shouldn’t be your health.
        What you can do is start laying a paper trail. Communicate all this on email or some other physical system. You are giving sufficient warning that things need to change or things go boom.
        Go back to your regular workload. If things go boom, it is nor your fault. Remember that. Not. Your. Fault. You can do only so much. You’ve discovered the limits of your capacity. No way will you be able to exceed that.
        It’s your boss’s job to solve that issue, and the solution can’t be ‘foist it all on you’.
        Make sure this info makes it into your paper trail, so you have proof you’re willing to see the problem solved, but you can’t be the one to solve it by taking on work you can’t do because you don’t have the bandwidth.

  133. anony-Nora*

    After almost 10 years at my toxic sinking ship of a workplace, I’ve finally had enough and am seriously pursuing a job search. There are (as always) problems, though.

    See, I started in a very entry-level position, and have worked my way through several other departments, sometimes being in several at the same time. But it seems like only the client-facing or managerial folks here have actual job titles. For people like me, you do the work the bosses tell you to do, and at best you have a department you can say you belong to. I’m more in accounting than anywhere else these days, but I’m not an accountant and not looking for another accounting job (that’s part of why I want out).

    How do you handle job titles on a resume when you don’t really have one, and can’t ask your toxic managers for clarification without tipping them off that you’re looking to leave? I’ve done a lot of tasks that would come under the heading of administrative assistant, and that’s the kind of work I’m looking for, but I haven’t formally been one here. Can I just list some of my areas of responsibility and explain the situation to an interviewer?

    2. irene adler*

      Can you put:

      Official Job Title (Unofficial Job Title) 2009-present
      Teapots’R’Us
      Job accomplishments

      Then use Admin Assistant for the Unofficial Job Title.

      1. Guest*

        Another option is to put “(Equivalent to [X])” in the parentheses – I’ve used this before

  134. Adminx2*

    It’s Employee Appreciation Day again! Which means “Employee (except for the Admins who have work added to create and carry out all the events) Appreciation Day!”

    I love event planning and lunch hosting and giving my people small perks. But don’t label it employee appreciation when YOU (managers) aren’t doing the work for it and are actually making some employees do MORE work but expect all the warm rewards.

    /rant

    1. Not All*

      I’m sorry. That sucks. And is SO common. My office’s version is that the managers by pizza as a ‘thank you’…except roughly half the office can’t eat it because of dietary restrictions (mostly of the “this will make me deathly ill for days” variety or lifelong vegans whose bodies probably couldn’t even process dairy/meat at this point) and probably another quarter of the office simply think the place they order from is so revolting they’d rather eat from the crappy vending machines. Since hardly anyone eats it, they can take it home to their kids for dinner.

      Ugh.

      1. Adminx2*

        SOOOO true! The good news is I have enough direct power I can make sure there’s sodas and water, pizza and salads, plus some candy and chocolate (cause that’s a PARTY and not just “pizza for lunch”). Many other people who hosted parties didn’t and just got pizza and water.
        Double negative points if you’re in a place trying to be all about “diversity and inclusion.”

  135. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I have a co-worker (Susan) whose mistakes keep needing to be fixed by me and another co-worker (Janie). Janie and I have both gone to our boss (Leo) and said Susan needs to be re-trained, as her mistakes should not be happening, especially when she’s been here for months. Leo always makes excuses for Susan, saying Susan is always profusely apologetic and tries to do better, and Janie and I should be double-checking Susan’s work anyway. Leo and Susan were out sick yesterday and I spent over half an hour fixing one of Susan’s mistakes. I sent Leo an item-by-item email of everything that was wrong and how long it took me to fix everything. Another supervisor, AJ, overheard my frustration and said AJ and their fellow supervisors have repeatedly talked with Leo about Susan’s problems, but nothing has changed. Any advice on how to proceed? I’m starting to feel gaslit by Leo that Susan’s mistakes aren’t a big deal, when they are (we work in a hospital, and if I hadn’t caught her mistakes yesterday, it would have had repercussions across departments). Any advice?

    1. Hmmm...*

      Start documenting every single time you and Janie have to correct Susan’s mistakes and the amount of time it takes to do so. Then, send an email with this document to your boss, asking again (nicely) for more training with Susan. If you get push back, take it to your boss’ boss.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Agreed. That one email you just sent is a great starting point. If you don’t see anything from Leo in a week, use it and list 2 – 3 other examples in less detail (eg, ‘similar problems with Jan TPS report, etc) in an email to Leo’s boss, saying something like, ‘Hi Grandboss, I have talked to Leo about these issues several times, but now that I’ve seen it potentially affect multiple departments, I want to check with someone who has a wider view. Do you have any suggestions on how we can prevent these time-consuming errors?’

        Alternately – what happens if the errors don’t get caught – is there any way for Susan to face consequences without you getting in trouble (or people being harmed, including wrong billings…)?

    2. Interviewer*

      We have a workout facility in our multi-tenant building. People aren’t allowed to leave their stuff in the lockers if they’re not using the workout area. If they leave, their stuff has to leave, too. No parking, even for just the day.

      Talk to whoever manages your space about creating a policy, and getting it announced, with signage inside the locker rooms. Usually this is an office manager, or someone who works on your wellness program/benefits, or whoever works with your landlord on maintenance issues.

      If you can’t corral someone into doing this for you, consider creating your own signage for both rooms. People who “forget” about sweaty gym towels & clothes, even for a day, can absolutely destroy a small cubby and an entire locker room with the stink. Your sign can focus on security issues, or hygiene, or space concerns. Or all 3.

      Good luck!

    3. BRR*

      This sounds incredibly similar to my work situation. I went from “Susan needs to be re-trained” to “Susan’s mistakes are taking a lot of time to fix, what can we do about it so that I have the time to complete *primary work*?” Turns out the answer was basically “nothing, you can continue to be burdened.”

      There are two things that I do now. Make it my manager’s problem as much as possible. I have to be careful not to do too much because it might reflect poorly on me but I picture it as handing him an a flaming object and saying it’s his problem now since he won’t dump water on it. The other thing I do is nothing. I let the firm burn.

      I realized two things as writing this: Does Susan know she makes mistakes? My Susan does so (second thing) I make Susan fix her mistakes. Sometimes it feels really petty because it takes more time to tell Susan what the mistake is than it would for me to fix it but since Susan keeps making the same mistakes, Susan can fix them.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I think that’s the right approach, making her fix things. I work in a position that depends on a Susan (and the two senior people on her team) to create things correctly, and lately her mistakes have been really sloppy. I have been tempted to fix some of them myself (sometimes the mistakes are in PowerPoint and can be fixed) but I was asked explicitly not to do that, and that’s correct– she needs to fix her mistakes and she needs to learn from them. As long as there’s time, that’s what has to be done.

        It’s doubly frustrating because my Susan is experiencing a learning curve but had been doing really well, and now things are… not great.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Make fixing Susan’s mistakes the last thing on your plate at the end of the day after you’ve done all your own work. If you don’t get to it, you don’t get to it.

      And see if you can take AJ aside and let him know that the only way to fix Susan might be for him and the other supervisors take it to Leo’s boss.

    5. Kathenus*

      Instead of fixing Susan’s mistakes, why don’t you and Janie take a more literal approach to Leo’s direction to ‘double-check’ her work. Check it, flag all errors, and send it back to Susan for correction, copying Leo. Do it EVERY TIME. If Susan doesn’t have to deal with the consequences of her mistakes from Leo, at least make her deal with them by being the one to re-do the work.

    6. A Frayed Knot*

      Am I the only one to find it very “convenient” that Susan and Leo were sick on the same day? Is that why he is protecting her?

  136. Me--Blargh!*

    *sigh* I feel like I’m just shoveling resumes into a black hole. I think for today I should just back away from the job websites, because I’m about to chew through the screen.

    On a lighter note, today on Indeed, there was a post for a temporary job with this at the top: “Test test testasd;fljsdf;jd;fladjfl;sdjflsdfljsdfljsdfjsdfjsdlfjsdlfasdl;jk”

    Bahahahaha!

    1. Lynne879*

      Believe me, I feel you. I’ve been aggressively job searching since August (although really I’ve been job hunting since 2015, I’ve finally started taking it more seriously recently) and it’s so emotionally and mentally draining.

      Just know that you’re not alone!

  137. NotAMadScientist*

    Need advice on trying to be a team player vs dropping the rope

    I’m transitioning out of a role in 3 months. Frantically trying to finish thesis and get stuff done. Boss keeps promising to move a lot of my responsibilities (some of which I inherited “temporarily” from the last person to leave a year ago) to someone else. We had an employee hired and fired that was going to take on most of them, I wasted a lot of time training them for nothing. A different person was highly resistant to learning any of them and manages to be “unavailable” constantly even when Boss told them to learn the procedure. Then person A was being prepped for a lot of them. Person A has been out sick for 2 weeks now, she’s going to be overwhelmed when she returns (has mono) and is pushing back on taking them on. Boss is being indirect and I get the impression he’d like me to just keep doing them. I get the value of being a team player but I am overworked, exhausted and trying to get ready to defend. At what point do I just drop the rope? It’s awkward too because I need Boss to be favorable for my reference and what not. I’ve been tracking how many hours are spent on what project, debating taking that to him but not sure anything beyond “All the things must get done!” gets past his brain (like the fact I’m facing severe burn out and starting to resent all the people who are “unavailable” but have free time).

    1. NotAMadScientist*

      Well had a meeting with Boss and got added to yet another new project. My pushback was met with “oh but this would be a great experience for you”. So that at least answers my question of should I try and talk to him about getting off some of these things. Think it’s gonna be ice cream for dinner tonight.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        You need to meet with your boss and let him know that now that task Z has been added to your list, you can do A & B, but not C, D, and E. Ask him if he would like to re-prioritize which three tasks are not going to be done.

  138. FinallyFriday*

    So things at work are crazy right now, and we’re all incredibly stressed and it’s starting to wear people down.

    One of these people is my boss who was asked to take on a ton of additional responsibility. He’s working literally everyday and fielding calls in the evenings as well.

    I’m doing my best to help out where I can, but we have very very different job responsibilities, there is actually a question of whether or not my department belongs under him at all. I’m beginning to get the sense that he’s starting to get annoyed that my team and I aren’t just volunteering to come in and work every weekend.

    I want to help him out, but the company made a decision that killed a lot of good will with my team (and a lot of other employees) at the start of the year, so it’s unlikely that any of us will volunteer to come in and work for free to perform job duties that are not in our job descriptions. We’ve been staying late and taking on extra work during the week, but I think we’re all drawing the line here.

    Any thoughts?

    1. foolofgrace*

      Let him get annoyed! Otherwise *you’ll* be the annoyed one if you put in extra hours for no pay. That’s just crazy.

  139. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

    I caught myself being fat phobic and am really mad at myself. I have a terrible coworker with whom my entire office has hit BEC level with. She is horrible on so many levels (e.g. dishonest, racist, terrible work ethic, drama llama, LOUD in an open office) and fat. I caught myself thinking of her weight negatively in a mental list of one of the many ways that she is terrible. I have 1000s’s of reasons to dislike her so there is no reason to bring her weight into it because it is totally irrelevant. I haven’t said anything or treated her differently, but am mad at myself for even thinking it :/

    1. Ladylike*

      I think it’s human nature to pile it on when we’re making mental lists of the ways people annoy us. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Just make sure you never say it out loud, even with people who may share the same view. Focusing on her personality flaws and poor work ethic is valid – bashing her appearance is not (but you already know that).

    2. Hmmm...*

      I read somewhere that the first though that pops into your head is how you were conditioned to think, the second is what you are trying to become. Don’t be too hard on yourself, this is how society trains us to look at women. I can tell you are working on yourself.

      1. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

        That is kind of how it happened. I was having an in the back of my mind, quasi-unconscious rant about her and all the ways she was awful. When I tuned into my rant and out of my work (I tend to have 2+ trains of thought going at once) I caught myself thinking crap things about her weight and went, “Whoa, Gumption, WTF! That’s uncool”. It just sucks to know those thoughts are in there at all :/

    3. wittyrepartee*

      You caught it. Use this to remember how we have been carefully taught to discriminate against people by our society, and how hard we have to fight against our prejudices. Constant battle.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      I’m getting close to BEC with someone, and am at the point where her makeup (well applied, dramatic, no smell or anything like that) is starting to piss me off. So I feel ya, but try hard to focus on the *actions* that bug you and then cut yourself off when you drift into personal attribute territory. Sounds like there’s plenty to work with…

      1. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

        I’d say I’m glad you feel my pain, but I don’t feel glad anyone else is in BEC stage. And you are right, I have so, so, SO many real things she does that the personal stuff is unnecessary. I’m just annoyed with myself for still having that junk come out

  140. Semaj*

    Hi all! I need some advice or maybe a reality check about some conflict I’m experiencing with a coworker, Jane. I’ve been working in my role for nearly a year, but I’ve been in the field for longer. This is my first non-entry level position and Jane is the admin for our unit. All of this boils down to – Jane doesn’t stay in her lane, in fact she doesn’t even seem to realize there are lanes, and this leaves me wondering if I’m the one off-base.

    I’ve been an admin before, and I think there’s an understanding that you aren’t a subject matter expert at this level and there’s certain work you need to defer to coworkers. This is complicated because we are in a collaborative unit, but at the end of the day I’ve been assigned teapot construction so it gets on my nerves when a coworker comes in with questions about constructing teapots and instead of directing them to me, Jane weighs in and tries to handle it, despite me being fully available.

    What happens regularly is an employee strolls in and Jane, who sits in the reception area leading to my office, asks them what they need and tries to troubleshoot it on the spot. I’ll overhear and, knowing that I have context that Jane doesn’t, get up and leave my office to move into the reception area and group-consult. Not only do I feel like this undermines me, but it’s awkward. It’s like I’m teaching Jane how to better take my work from me. Jane hoards tasks even though she is constantly and easily overwhelmed with the (low) volume of our work. I get trying to be helpful, and I get that collaboration is the bee’s knees, but it’s to the point where I feel protective over my duties and I have to fight for things to be directed to me. I weigh in on things assigned to Jane if she is unavailable, but if she is available I send them her way, but she’s not operating that way with things that are assigned to me.

    Our supervisor has privately asked me to take the lead more between Jane and I, but I feel like there’s this weird power struggle between us that has been here since I started and I don’t know how to leverage it. She’s only been with this unit a few more months than I have, but I’ve been in the field longer, and she resists my input and advice regularly. I wonder if this is impacted by the fact that we are of a similar age, which maybe makes her trust my experience less? I don’t know, sometimes I feel like this is all in my head and I hesitate to bring this up to our supervisor because she has complimented how well we work together and it feels kind of childish to have to say “No, you can’t answer questions about chocolate teapots even if you know the answer because that’s my job!” On some level I think it’s part of her work personality – she needs to know every single thing that’s happening, she needs to be the one to immediately report things to our supervisor, and it’s like she wants to do every single thing herself which is unreasonable and leaves me feeling weirdly protective about my work.

    Another thing Jane does is when an employee sits in my office and is asking me questions, she calls out from her desk in the reception area to weigh in and answer questions that I do not need her for. This makes me see red, and it leads me to feel like she’s sitting there listening to my every conversation and trying to poke holes in it. I’ve tried to ignore all of this, but I want to work well together and I’d love to solve this without dragging our supervisor in to tell us to play nice. Am I overreacting to this stuff?

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t think you’re overreacting. It sounds like someone should talk to Jane about what her role is and things she should/shouldn’t be doing. I don’t know if this is something for your supervisor to do, or for you.

      More specifically, if someone comes with a question, bring them into your office to take Jane out of the conversation. “I’ve actually got some time now, if you’d like to come into my office to discuss.”

      If Jane is shouting while you have people in your office, can you close the door? After they leave you could say, “Jane, please don’t shout and chime in to conversations that are happening in my office.”

      If she’s doing something that’s been assigned to you, try “Actually, Supervisor asked me to do this.”

      It sounds like you should bring your supervisor in on this.

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        I definitely agree that you should step out to Jane’s area and move the other employee into your office (close the door) or if need be, perhaps you can move the conversation to a conference room down the hall and out of Jane’s hearing.
        You can also speak with the questioning co-worker and request they come directly to you with any questions, rather than going through Jane. “Bob, when you have questions about the X process, please call me, or come on to my office and we will get it sorted out. My door is always (usually) open. Thanks so much.”

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Jane does sound out of line, and my advice assumes you are reading this correctly. You’ve got some soft skill options to help with this, and some direct word options, but some of these are pretty aggressive. You may *need* to be aggressive – I’m a Jane, and I do best with direct words, but even I figure out the soft skill responses if they’re repeated enough. Use Alison’s ‘Tone’ podcast to hear the tones you should be using for these.

      1) Ask her to send people with Teapot Engineering questions straight to you; cheerful matter of fact tone (of COURSE she’ll do this, she’s just a little confused right now!)
      – Explain that you’re getting regular context updates that she doesn’t hear about because they aren’t relevant to her work, but that are needed to get a good Teapot Engineering answer.
      – Maybe put it in context of ‘this is what they pay me for, so let me do it which will free you from this extra work!’ (if she responds that she likes answering questions, say ‘Great, but the company has assigned this to me. Please send them to my office.’)
      – When you hear someone come in and ask questions and she answers, do the ‘join in’ thing but go back to her later and say, ‘That’s what I was talking about! Next time, please tell them “Semaj can help with that, her office is there” ‘.

      2) After you’ve done that 2 – 4 times, if there’s no change, physically reduce collaborative answers with Jane
      – When you hear someone come in and ask questions, pull them into your office
      – If it’s too short an answer to pull into the office, use voice and body language to exclude Jane – lower your voice a little, and instead of making a triangle facing between the two, turn to the asker and then turn a bit further, so that you are facing slightly away from Jane. Maybe take a step or two away from Jane, towards your office or the area’s door. This is very much a dominance / passive aggressive move, so use your words with Jane consistently first.
      – Repeat the ‘Send them to my office, please’ conversation, getting less cheerful / more serious, but not short or irritated.

      3) No matter what, shut down her intruding on conversations in your office – that’s SO RUDE. I don’t even do that!
      – Tell her, directly, 1 – 1 conversation, mildly cheerful tone, ‘when there’s someone in my office, it’s distracting if you join in the conversation. It gets in the way, please stop.’
      – When she still does it, pause the conversation, get up and close the door. Follow up with another conversation with Jane, ‘Remember when I asked you to stop joining? I had to close the door because you were distracting. Please stop.’ Again, less cheerful with each repetition, but still calm. Do this *EVERY TIME*, you have to be consistent. You are training her on the separation of your jobs.

      If you have to shut the door more than 4 – 5 times, take it up with Susan’s boss – you’ve talked with her, but she is still disrupting your work; you have to close the door to get her to stop! Does boss have any additional suggestions?

      Don’t address it as ‘undermining’, address it as ‘interrupting’ .

      Your age probably is contributing to both Jane’s interaction with you (she’s identifying with you, thinking you’re both doing similar jobs at similar levels) and possibly with your reaction to her – you seem to be not assertive. Using your words in a calm, cheerful (or serious) manner is not rude, it’s professional and assertive.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        This.

        And if she does not respond appropriately to the soft no, please feel free to be direct, in front of the questioner if necessary:

        “No, Jane, that is not correct.”

        “No, Jane, you don’t have the context here.”

        It’s important for your coworkers to know the right answer! You can’t guarantee you’ll be there every minute to catch and correct Jane’s wrong answers. The people asking need to know that Jane is not a reliable source.

        1. valentine*

          Knowing she’s a filter is a basic and essential part of her job she seems unaware of. Instead, she’s treating you like a sibling she’s competing with to get ahead of the message.

  141. Screaming into the Void*

    NGL mostly here to vent but also here to see if anyone’s been in a similar situation and has any advice

    I’m currently finishing up my last semester in grad school, and I recently left a part time job to move back in with my parents (different city) to save money and look for a full time job. I recently had an interview that went really well, but ultimately was rejected and was told I was the runner up. The interviewer was kind enough to give me some feedback, and he basically told me that one of my references was not good. This was a previous boss of mine that I’d thought I’d left on good terms with. I admit, I didn’t give her a heads up that she might be contacted, and that was my fault and part of her irritation. I was scrambling bc he asked for 3 supervisor references, and I had 2 plus another professional reference ready to go.

    This was boss was incredibly toxic, in addition to being racist and sexist. She was so bad that there were weeks I cried multiple times underneath my desk. One time, while she was speaking to me I got upset and started crying (and not like a little teary eyed, like actual crying) and she just stood there and KEPT TALKING trying to reason with me. This was my first job out of college and I admit there were definitely skills/behaviors I could have worked on, but I’m really proud of a lot of what I did and how long I lasted. Also, literally every coworker I had told me that this wasn’t normal and this would probably be the worst boss I’d ever have. This was a small academic office that LITERALLY had >100% staff turnover because the director ran everybody off. In addition, I’d only ever received critical feedback from her ONCE, and it was literally just “you need to work on your communication with Wakeen” no further explanation or tips or anything. My annual review had also gone really well and I received the highest merit increase available.

    I emailed a former coworker of mine to ask for advice, and she literally wrote me backs in all caps to “NEVER EVER LIST HER AS A REFERENCE”. Apparently, my boss was demoted after I left and is quite bitter about it, and even if I had left on good terms, this might prevent her from providing a good reference. I literally have 6 other people from this workplace that were all senior to me who would serve as a reference, but I’m worried my bitter boss will still haunt me. I really wanted the job I was rejected from, and I’m just so angry that an impartial boss could have been the reason that I didn’t get it.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s an ouch; I’m sorry. I’m glad your interviewer told you.

      But this was a one-off and it won’t happen again. Get your venting out and then look to the future, wherein you will be a better boss than she was.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1

        Yeah, never use her as a reference, ever. You have ‘lost touch’ with your manager from that job. Go short a reference rather than listing her.

        WOW she sucks. Good luck to you

  142. For Your Entertainment*

    Yesterday I was in one of the restrooms in the factory portion of our building, minding my own…ahem…business, when I heard a voice say, “What time is it?” I ignored her at first, assuming she was on the phone or talking to someone else. A minute or so later, she called again, “Hello? Can you hear me?” I responded, “Oh sorry, I didn’t realize you were talking to me. It’s 2:51.” She then launched into what I can only call a weird philosophical discussion/tirade/confessional of her own horrible behavior in previous workplaces, that went on and on, requiring occasional responses from me. She yammered on as I flushed, washed my hands, and edged towards the door. Finally, I said, “Gotta run! I have a meeting! Have a nice day!” And I bolted.

    But seriously…DON’T try to have a conversation with me when we’re IN THERE. Asking me for the time…ok, I’m sure you have your own phone in there with you, but whatever. But the LAST thing I want to do in the bathroom is have an ongoing conversation with a total stranger.

    On top of that, she is a temp (she told me as much) and I’m just a notch down from management, but in a position that I could influence whether or not she stays employed here. If I should be unfortunate enough to cross paths with her again, I’ll pretend not to hear her – we do wear earplugs in the plant, so it’s not a stretch. :)

      1. valentine*

        It would be a kindness to tell her being on her best behavior includes not confessing at work to unprofessional behavior, that she’s lucky t was you and not someone who’d want to turf her on the spot.

    2. stitchinthyme*

      Oh god, this gives me shudders! When someone else enters the bathroom while I’m in there, I have been known to stay in the stall until they leave (or hurry to finish up, wash my hands, and get out before they’re done) just to avoid talking to people in the bathroom — I just really dislike bathroom conversation.

      One nice thing about my workplace is it has a couple of totally private bathrooms — single-room, no stalls (these also have showers since some people bike to work), which some of my coworkers jokingly call the “poop bathrooms” since a lot of people use those for that purpose because they’re more private than the regular ones.

    3. fposte*

      I think it’s also fine to firmly say “I’m *not* a bathroom talker” and ignore anything else she says.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        That’s nicer than my initial response, which was “lalala can’t hear you”

        1. For Your Entertainment*

          I was tempted to do a version of this by loudly shouting, “Is someone talking? I’m sorry, I cant hear a thing – ear plugs!” Maybe next time I will.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      OH I hate when people talk to me in the bathroom. I hate it!! I don’t even like it when I am home and my husband does it to me.

    5. wittyrepartee*

      Lol, sounds like she was having some sort of terrible day. What a bizarre thing to do.

    6. montecristo1985*

      I do NOT talk to people if I’m in the stall. Doesn’t matter who they are or what they are asking. I go temporarily deaf and dumb as a post. If I then run into them at the counter I will explain that, but not a peep will I make in the stall. People sometimes joke about it, but all in all it works fine.

      1. nym*

        The only exception to this one in my workplace is when you walk into the bathroom in the middle of a conversation with someone, and they continue the conversation while you go into your individual stalls, with something that requires an answer from you. Fortunately this is rare, but I probably have it happen once or twice a year.

        But please, don’t be the person that perpetuates a bathroom conversation by asking a question the other person has to answer as you go do your business. Pick it up again by the sinks or back on the main floor.

  143. Anon Anon Anon*

    Happy Birthday to the Employee whose birthday was February 29 and whose job insisted on providing him/her birthday perks only every four years.

    I hope you found a better place to work.

  144. Semaj*

    Hi all! I need some advice or maybe a reality check about some conflict I’m experiencing with a coworker, Jane. I’ve been working in my role for nearly a year, this is my first non-entry level position and Jane is the admin for our unit. All of this boils down to – Jane doesn’t stay in her lane, in fact she doesn’t even seem to realize there are lanes, and this leaves me wondering if I’m the one off-base.

    I’ve been an admin before, and I think there’s an understanding that you aren’t a subject matter expert at this level and there’s certain work you need to defer to coworkers. This is complicated because we are in a collaborative unit, but at the end of the day I’ve been assigned teapot construction so it gets on my nerves when a coworker comes in with questions about constructing teapots and instead of directing them to me, Jane weighs in and tries to handle it, despite me being fully available.

    What happens regularly is an employee strolls in and Jane, who sits in the reception area leading to my office, asks them what they need and tries to troubleshoot it on the spot. I’ll overhear and, knowing that I have context that Jane doesn’t, get up and leave my office to move into the reception area and group-consult. Not only do I feel like this undermines me, but it’s awkward. It’s like I’m teaching Jane how to better take my work from me. Jane hoards tasks even though she is constantly and easily overwhelmed with the (low) volume of our work. I get trying to be helpful, and I get that collaboration is the bee’s knees, but it’s to the point where I feel protective over my duties and I have to fight for things to be directed to me. I weigh in on things assigned to Jane if she is unavailable, but if she is available I send them her way, but she’s not operating that way with things that are assigned to me.

    Our supervisor has privately asked me to take the lead more between Jane and I, but I feel like there’s this weird power struggle between us that has been here since I started and I don’t know how to leverage it. She’s only been with this unit a few more months than I have, but I’ve been in the field longer, and she resists my input and advice regularly. I wonder if this is impacted by the fact that we are of a similar age, which maybe makes her trust my experience less? I don’t know, sometimes I feel like this is all in my head and I hesitate to bring this up to our supervisor because she has complimented how well we work together and it feels kind of childish to have to say “No, you can’t answer questions about chocolate teapots even if you know the answer because that’s my job!” On some level I think it’s part of her work personality – she needs to know every single thing that’s happening, she needs to be the one to immediately report things to our supervisor, and it’s like she wants to do every single thing herself which is unreasonable and leaves me feeling weirdly protective about my work.

    Another thing Jane does is when an employee sits in my office and is asking me questions, she calls out from her desk in the reception area to weigh in and answer questions that I do not need her for. This makes me see red, and it leads me to feel like she’s sitting there listening to my every conversation and trying to poke holes in it. I’ve tried to ignore all of this, but I want to work well together and I’d love to solve this without dragging our supervisor in to tell us to play nice. Am I overreacting to this stuff?

    1. Asenath*

      Well, to start with, I wouldn’t group-consult if I heard Jane essentially doing my job – I’d go out to the desk, welcome (or introduce myself) to the visitor, and take the visitor to your office saying something like “I’m the person who handles that; please just come this way and we can discuss it”. And if Jane is joining in with your conversations from outside the office, close the door if you have one, and if you don’t, ignore her contributions and as soon as your visitor is gone, tell her not to interrupt you again.

      I don’t think you’re over-reacting, and, more importantly, your supervisor also appears to think it’s an issue.

      And since she’s so overwhelmed with her own work, you can add that you don’t want to take her away from it! But I’d start with actually removing the consulting co-worker to your office and shutting off Jane’s contributions somehow first.

    2. JudyInDisguise*

      I was Jane.

      Years ago, an employee was transferred from out London office to the US to take over a project that I had been assigned as planner for 8 years prior. Employees gravitated to me when asking questions about what was now HIS project and I gleefully answered any and all questions. I had no ill will towards him and I actually thought I was helping. Until, finally, one day he showed up at my desk with pile of work and two cups of coffee. He said he needed my help to understand every piece of paper he had brought with him and every decision I had made, and then he asked me why folks in the office kept coming to me. He wondered if there was something off-putting he was doing or if I thought he seemed unapproachable. He asked me if there was anything I thought I could do to get them to address him directly with their questions. That’s when I got a clue – I wasn’t helping him at all, I was preventing him from taking the reins for himself. He let me know that the best way to help him was to redirect inquiries relating to his project to his office. He gently let me know I had wandered outside of my lane and I respectfully let him do his job. We had no misunderstandings or miscommunications after that and worked well together for another 4 years. (and I stayed in my lane)

      1. valentine*

        But you weren’t an admin. Jane’s behavior is sitcom-level awful.

        Semaj, instead of leaving your office, if you can buzz her, do that to brightly ask her to send the person to you.

  145. Bee's Knees*

    Just got back from taking an employee to the hospital. HR is never boring, y’all. (She is fine)
    This afternoon I have someone coming in for the fifth interview this week.
    And I keep getting excited that tomorrow is Saturday, but then I remember that I have to come in to work on our badge system, because I need to do it when no one is here.

  146. AnonyMouse*

    Playing the excruciating waiting game for the position I’m a finalist for. I think they wrapped up contacting references earlier this week (based on what one of my references told me they were offered as date/time options for their call). I’m assuming it’s with HR now (and it’s a position in higher ed, so who knows how slowly/quickly that will move). Keep your fingers crossed for me! It would be amazing if my search was finally over with this one!

  147. DC*

    So, as some of you know, I’ve slowly been considering what might come next as things at my current place throw up some red flags: delays in my raise request, people leaving, both voluntary and involuntarily, and a few other things.

    Being told that my request is still being pushed off sucks, and I’ve been really struggling with my motivation to keep delivering at my normal rate when it clearly doesn’t seem to matter. I’ve started looking, briefly, at other things. I guess here are my questions:

    1. How do you keep your motivation up to do even simple things when you’re burned out AND the company isn’t helping at all?
    2. I have experience (lots of it) as an event planner, but am trying to move more towards comms/design. I have recently acquired a graduate degree in communications and would like to shift more that way. I’m not sure how to do that, however, without going all the way back to entry level. My years of experience don’t seem like they perfectly line up, but there is some overlap. I learn fast- REALLY fast, like, show me something once fast, and am willing to take courses/etc to earn skills I may not have yet. Any suggestions or ideas?

    1. Suggestion*

      Can you work for a PR company doing comms? Some PR companies do events as well and you may be able to leverage your events experience and get your foot in the door to a PR company. If you live in DC (and those aren’t your initials), the company Edelman comes to mind.

    2. Agent J*

      1) Try setting daily small goals and celebrating those small wins. Give yourself new goals every day or week. It helped me to focus on future goals, even when the job sucked. It might also help to see the work as preparing you for the next step in your career instead of for your manager or the company. Do good work because you take pride in it. It takes some practice but I hope it helps.

      2) Do you work with a comms / design team to help promote your events? Perhaps you can ask them to show you how to do smaller tasks (e.g., writing social media messages or a press release, using design software, etc.) that you can start to take on for them. They might appreciate the support and you get the entry-level experience you’re looking for that you can demonstrate you already have when you interview.

      1. DC*

        This is great advice. I’m going to definitely use #1, I swear by my planner so I can definitely make checking things off a goal.

        I’ll talk to my team members about #2, see what I can do without making it obvious I’m trying to leave!

  148. VacationPlease?*

    I got a job offer and just gave my two weeks notice yesterday. My last day is on March 15th, and I start my new job on March 18th.

    However, I just found out my partner is going on a work trip March 11th-14th. I want to join him, but it’s on my last week. Can I email my current job and ask that my last day be March 22nd so I have two full weeks? Then I’ll ask my new job if I can start on March 25th? I already signed a memo acknowledging that my start date is March 18th.

    Please help! I’ve never been to Europe (where my partner’s trip will be).

    1. LaDeeDa*

      It doesn’t hurt to ask them if you can postpone it for a week. Just call them and ask if it would be too much trouble. I hope you get to go!

    2. Four lights*

      Could you try asking your current job? Do you think you’d have things organized by then?

    3. Rey*

      Does your current job need two weeks notice? Without even mentioning the vacation, you could try something like “Unfortunately, a situation has come up and I need to move my last day to March 8th. I know this isn’t ideal, but it was unavoidable. I’ll take care of X and Y so that they are ready for the transition blah blah.” And then it doesn’t affect your new job at all.

      1. VacationPlease?*

        The employee handbook requests two weeks notice. I also don’t want to burn any bridges since it’s a large company I would possibly work for again.

        1. Rey*

          Do you have a good relationship with your boss? And do you think the new place would be open to changing your start day? Even if two weeks notice is the norm, if you have a good relationship and your boss knows that you are generally reliable, they’ll probably understand that a random trip to Europe is something you can’t pass up. You could even frame it like that: “I know the handbook requests two weeks notice. I don’t want to burn any bridges, so I would normally never consider this. This trip to Europe came up at the last minute and I don’t want to miss this chance. Would you like me to finish on March 8, or come back to work from March 18-22?” You’re so close to Europe at this point–I don’t want you to miss it!

          1. Psyche*

            I wouldn’t use that phrasing if not burning bridges is important. It shouldn’t be phrased in a way that says that the vacation is happening and only the end date is under discussion. I would try to soften it a bit. “Would it be possible for me to finish on March 8, or come back to work from March 18-22?”

            1. VacationPlease?*

              Thanks all for your advice. My boss is open to me staying an extra week. Hopefully HR is ok with it. I sent an email to the new job Hiring Manager to ask if I could push my start date back. She’s OOO, but hopefully she’s checking her email (or else I will be very, very stressed over the weekend).

    4. Rockhopper*

      Would you be coming back on the 15th or 16th? Every time I have flown back from Europe (only 4 times, so I’m no expert) it has taken me 3-4 days to feel completely clear-headed and on Eastern Standard Time again. I wouldn’t want to be making my important first impression at a new job under those conditions. So if you are going to make the trip, I’d vote for moving your start date to the 25th. Then you could either work at current job that week (where they know you and won’t care if you are jet lagged) or have a week off to get yourself ready to hit the ground running at the new job.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Start with your new job– you don’t want to ask for your notice at your current job to be extended if your new job won’t budge on the start date.

      1. VacationPlease?*

        I’ve only asked my new job, and this has been the most stressful few hours ever. I’m worried they’ll pull my offer.

    6. VacationYES*

      Update for everyone who replied: I’M GOING TO EUROPE!!!

      Both my current job and my new job allowed me to push my dates back a week.

      Lesson: If you never ask, you’ll never receive.

  149. Introvert girl*

    So how do you deal with micromanaging bosses that have no clue what you actually do but still believe they know better? Context: I’m part of a team that translates different kind of teapots in different languages. Everything is going ok, but every couple of weeks our grandboss, who doesn’t speak any of the target languages, “checks” the translations and gets angry that they don’t match exactly. Off course they don’t, because we can’t translate literally. For example when we translate breakfast teapots into French, they will contain more words as “breakfast” consists of two words in french. Sometimes we have different words in our target language when it’s a glass teapot instead of a porcelain one. How do you deal with these situations?

    1. DoPandasBite*

      Can you give your boss a literally translated version and a properly translated version then show some third party and see which they prefer?

    2. LaDeeDa*

      That is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. What the H is he checking if he doesn’t speak those languages??

      Do you use the same words a lot- could you make him a cheat sheet?
      Teapot = théière
      Breakfast = petit déjeuner
      Lunch: le déjeuner
      Jerk = secousse

      1. Introvert girl*

        He actually has a third party manager for every language, but just goes over their head straight to us. We have words and sentences that keep coming back and have special google docs with these to which our language managers have access too. They are telling us if they want something written or described differently. We have a very good working relationship with them. The problem is that our grandboss needs to trust his managers (and us) doing our job, because we are good at what we do and all want what’s best for the company. We also just don’t have the time to explain to him for example the difference between “learning’ and “teaching” (which in some languages doesn’t comprise out of two separate words).

        1. LaDeeDa*

          It totally boils down to him needing to exert some sort of control. If you don’t trust your managers and team either you didn’t hire the right people or you are a control freak– both are his problem.
          If you have direct contact with him looking at your work and him asking you for why things “don’t match”, I’d say something like “Translations aren’t literally word for word. What can I do to help you feel more comfortable with this?”

    3. fposte*

      Can you ask nicely if that means he wants you to change the English ones so they match? Nothing like a literal translation into your own language to illuminate the folly.

      1. valentine*

        What if he prefers the horror?

        Is he using Google and being upset it doesn’t match yours, or, worse, a language-English dictionary?

  150. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

    I’m very proud of myself – I managed to figure out how to get my church employer’s CD cashed in and applied to our mortgage principal, as desired by the Top Dog. I have never had anything to do with a CD and doing this required so. much. work. Dealing with two different banks, and our electric company (they had the actual CD, as a deposit securing our services, they wanted something in its place), and getting a trustee to actually run around to both banks and swap out the CD at the elec. office with a letter of credit instead. Our bank was very unhelpful, they just kept saying how busy they were, but I had a total of 5 business days to get all this done. I used a back channel to the bank, a loan officer who wrote our mtg years back, and he cut through the red tape and kickstarted what we needed.

    It feels really good to accomplish something when you have no idea what you are doing! However, there was a bit of a ripple at the end: when I was emailing thanks to those who helped me when it was done, I mentioned how difficult it was to work with the bank branches…. and later that day got a call from the bank market president wanting details so he could go talk to people. Not entirely sure how far a market pres. goes, but it sounds pretty high up.

  151. The Other Dawn*

    No question today. Just wanted to say to all the managers who arrange for new hires to come in for lunch and meet the new team before the start date, thank you!

    I start my new job soon and my new manager had me come in for lunch this week to meet my new team (I’ll be their manager). It was sandwiches and chips in the conference room, nice and casual. I got to talk to everyone, learn what they do within the team, and their past career path within the company. I then got to take a tour of the building and then see my new department, as well as my new desk. The added bonus was being able to see how people dress. Banking can be more on the business dress side, although lots of places are finally making the move to business casual, so it was helpful to see the dress code in action.

    I’m so, so glad my new manager had me come in before my start date. I really wish previous managers had done this. I feel much more at ease now and have a good idea as to the kitchen situation (there’s a dishwasher…I immediately thought of all the posts here about dishwasher, fridge and general kitchen issues), the layout of the building, and how much room I’ll have in my cube. I’m disappointed I’ll no longer have an office, but it’s not a deal-breaker. The nice thing is the cube has a frosted glass (plastic?) door and the walls and door are almost six feet high. Oh, and the floor is quiet!!

    So thanks to those of you that do this type of thing for your new hires! Going forward, I plan to do this whenever I need to hire someone.

    1. Even Steven*

      What a wonderful idea! I don’t think I have ever heard of this before. Thank you for this – I am going to suggest it at my company. We have an online HR Suggestion Box and this is just the kind of thing that I bet they would embrace.

      Congrats to you on the new job! I am in accounting and recently went from oldjob office to newjob cube, and couldn’t be happier. I wish you the same!!!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks so much!

        Yes, it was so helpful. Not only because it put me at ease, but because it’s helping me to formulate a plan for how I’ll relate to them. I was hired as the department manager and am expected to affect some changes. Not personnel changes. More like procedure and policy changes.

        Had my former manager from two jobs ago done this, I think it would have cemented my gut feeling that I took the wrong job and I would have changed my mind. Instead I spent 10 miserable months there before I could move on. Everyone there was miserable.

  152. Cowgirlinhiding*

    Not super happy about my job right now. Feeling like I have no support from management to get things done and provide a quality work environment for our employees. Upper management always goes way overboard and gives me support but the line guys that control the actions/job functions of the employees couldn’t give a crap.

    Also, everyone seems to think that I can fix the world! Example: “Can you tell Jackrabbit not to put his stuff there?” (even though Jackrabbit is standing right there and they can tell them themselves. “Tell Jackrabbit that his lunch is stinking up the break room!”(With that many jackrabbits sharing the break room at a time, how do you know it is their lunch?) “Hey, keep every jackrabbit busy every moment of the day, no bathroom breaks!” (All jackrabbits will not fit in the bathroom at the same time, so they need to let them go a few at a time. “Can I dock Jackrabbit’s pay because they weren’t following rabbit rule?” Not if you want to follow x labor law. “Hey and can you move Jackrabbits hole over, even though it is cemented in?” Really, some days I just want to lock my door and shut out all the jackrabbits!

  153. Goodbye, Ruby Bluesday*

    2 more years at this job. Just keep telling yourself, 2 more years at this job.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I’m just trying to get through six more months at this job and it’s hard! Two years seems like a long time. I hope that’s the cutoff for retirement or something excellent.

    2. London Calling*

      One month* until I start the job search. One month. I can do this. I CAN do this.

      *Bonuses get paid in April payday. They can be withheld if someone has resigned prior to that day but hasn’t left, so I reckon April for the job hunt and then go all out once I have my grubby little hands on the goods. They ain’t much but hey, bonus. Don’t want to miss out on that.

  154. stump*

    Minor medical industry woes:

    When you’re able to see patients’ email addresses in their medical records and you CANNOT TELL OTHER PEOPLE about the goofy ones you see because of HIPAA. And you’re just sitting there thinking, “Okay buddy, is the email address that makes it Very Clear you’re a juggalo or a furry really the one you want to share with your healthcare provider? I mean, REALLY? The people that will be discussing your chemo and infertility and anal fissures and things? Is that really the choice you want to make today?”

    So, you know, not the end of the world, but Very Silly.

    1. yeine*

      I used to use a really silly email for a lot of stuff, but when I had to give it to people with my real voice and spell it, I realized how ridiculous it was. So I switched to something less silly. I get you though.

      1. stump*

        Personally, I have several email addresses for various purposes (including goofy ones!), but my healthcare providers and bank and whatnot get the Serious One with my name. :)

        Just, I have to chuckle when I see JugglinFaygo or ShiningDragonFox or Otaku4Eva or whatever on top of a claim for like, earwax cleaning or something.

    2. NotAMadScientist*

      I still use my “silly” email for stuff I don’t want to risk having show up on my work computer (work email and professional sounding gmail account both logged in). Open offices are the worst. Maybe they have a similar situation? At least mines only a 90s song reference…

    3. LCL*

      I uh, waste more time than I should on Reddit. I often wonder what some of the posters will do about their usernames when they are looking for a job.

    4. stump*

      Ngl, the only bad parts in all of this are a) I can’t share because HIPAA and b) everyone else on my team is older and not nearly as up on the Internet Stuff as I am so they’d have no idea what the heck a juggalo is even if I could tell them a patient’s email address. Woe and misery! ;)

  155. yeine*

    someone left me a note that says “thank for bringing so much positivity to the office!” and signed it “grateful coworker” at my desk this morning! (i work in tech in sfbay so it’s normal to roll in at about 10) this came with a VERY tasty muffin which i ate!

    now i’m on a quest to find out which of my coworkers it was. i think it’s my boss.

    – we get company notebooks but this was written on a nonstandard notebook (he has a notebook with his name on it)
    – the handwriting matches sort of handwriting in a conference room whiteboard i know he was in
    – he was in before me this morning.

    there’s only about 35 people in the office today, so i think i can do it.

    What a neat Friday.

    1. fposte*

      Or you can assume it’s something everybody got together on because they all think that about you. What a neat Friday indeed!

    3. yeine*

      update: the person who gave me the muffin told me who it was. i wouldn’t have guessed it!

      comically enough, they said “my building gives me free breakfast, and i don’t eat breakfast, but i wanted to get my money’s worth, so i decided to bring it some breakfast and give it to my coworkers.”

      which i think is really great and funny. the best part was the note but this makes it better, haha. :D

  156. Cheesecake2.0*

    Last week everyone gave wonderful advice so I have some new questions to throw out.
    I’m 5 weeks into a new job and share an assistant with my boss and grandboss. This assistant seems to be trying to exclude me as much as possible (and get others in the office to do so as well) without anything obvious that the bosses would notice. Some examples: never says hi or replies if I say it first. During meetings she has been asked to sit next to me by the meeting leaders and just won’t (sits 2 seats away). She invites everyone in the office to go get coffee except me. At an off-site event she brought everyone their paychecks (she’s the designated pick-up person from the cashiers office) except me so I had to go back to the office after the event was done to get mine from my mailbox. Also more work related, she’s left documents from me sitting in her mailbox for over a week without working on them, and each time I’ve needed her to do something, I’ve had to go ask in person because she won’t respond to emails.

    My thoughts are either that (A) she wanted my job and is pissed she didn’t get it or (B) she hates me for some other reason (she’s made complaints about how hiring me made the office “less diverse” and we need more diversity, not less) and I was brought in from pretty prestigious role before to help enact changes and generate new ideas but I get the impression she thinks I’m full of BS when I talk about all the work I did in the past.

    1. Cheesecake2.0*

      Forgot the actual questions!
      1) Should I only address her behavior as it specifically relates to work? Do I talk to my boss? Or her directly? I am tempted to just ask “it’s obvious you don’t really like me, can you tell me what’s going on so we can figure out how to work together better?”
      I don’t need her to be my friend but some of the stuff like the paycheck thing is just weird.

      1. Adminx2*

        Take her to lunch as your new assistant to get to know her better and do some ingratiating. Coffee if lunch seems too formal/long. You can check in on why the cold shoulder, maybe she will be honest, maybe not. But you CAN clarify your expectations (gently and firmly) and the basic courtesies you should be extended along with turnaround timelines. All in the name of “starting off on as a strong team.”

      2. Val Zephyr*

        I would talk to your boss first. Not to tattle on her, but more “I’m getting a rude vibe from her and I’m not sure why. Do you have any idea?” If she’s been treating you this way since you started, you’re probably right that she wanted your job herself or wanted someone else to get your job. Your boss will be able to fill you in on that background information and may be able to advise you on the best way to work with her.

        In my experience, confronting people who behave like this usually doesn’t work. They tend to deny that there is a problem and double down on their behavior. Although, if she’s preventing you from getting your work done, you can talk to her about that and keep the conversation work-focused.

      3. foolofgrace*

        I was going to suggest something like this. Ask her. After all, she’s the one making it awkward.

    2. fposte*

      I’d fill your boss in and ask about the report lines–does Boss prefer to talk to her or should you plan to? She doesn’t have to like you, but she does have to do her job, and right now she isn’t. I’d let the saying hi go, unless it was useful for filling out the picture, and focus on the failure to handle work and the deliberate insubordination when told to sit by you.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Focus on her ignoring your assignments and emails. Ask her directly her preferred method to receive requests and act like you want to work together better. Maybe she’s annoyed you don’t bring her things but drop them in her box. I’ve seen places that use their in boxes for junk collectors for like HR “re everyone!” memos.

      Approach her with an open mind. I know she’s chilly and weird…possibly cliquey but try greasing the wheels first!

      1. Cheesecake2.0*

        I did ask her when the first assignment was ready, I went to her office and said something like “hey just to let you know the TR report is done, I think I’m supposed to pass it to you now, right?” and she said “yeah just put it in my mailbox” and it’s been there 9 days now. I think I’m going to ask my boss for a general overview of how long she’s been given to wrap up the reports in the past. I had an impression it was within a day or two but maybe not.

  157. Puffle*

    So it’s been announced that my employer is going to close down, and we’re all going to be made redundant :( Not happening right away, we don’t know the exact timing yet- the big bosses are currently drawing up the closure plan.

    My role is likely to be on the expendable list, so I’m actively job hunting now, but it’s so hard when I’m reeling from the news and worrying about finances… I’ve got enough savings to tide me over for a good while, but I still worry. I’ve been here only a year, so my chances of a generous pay-off are pretty much zilch. I’m still quite early in my career, and this is the first time this has happened to me, so I’m struggling to process it.

    Does anyone have any tips or advice?

    1. Adminx2*

      You got this. One day you’ll be like almost everyone else with a “laid off” “early in career restart” story to tell.
      Also use your network while you have it- ask where people are sending applications, start asking friends and other career contacts if they know of openings. Now until June really is the main hiring season (not that hiring doesn’t happen all year long, it does!).

    2. Suggestion*

      – Cut as much of your expenses as you can. Save up as much as you can for the time being.
      – Start updating your resume and applying for other jobs ASAP
      – Can you get a side hustle in the mean time? That way, you won’t have to dip into your savings as much. Dog walking, part time server, etc.

      1. Adminx2*

        Meh side hustle has a few issues- if you get unemployment that means more tracking/less secure income. Getting a job IS a side hustle. If the OP sees this as a chance to take a dream and turn it into a real life achievement to sell their services. Otherwise it’s creating a huge time/energy suck just to try and keep some income when you’re already in a huge time/energy suck to get a job.

        1. Puffle*

          This is a bit of a quandary for me- extra income would be great, but job hunting is sucking up all of my spare time and energy right now, and any side hustle would potentially make me ineligible for unemployment benefits in my acountry

  158. Erin (who works from home)*

    Hey! this is the OP who has “Karen” in her office (and at her boss’s funeral….)
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/01/i-work-from-home-and-my-coworker-wants-me-available-24-7.html
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/updates-my-coworker-wants-me-available-24-7-my-boss-had-his-wife-do-our-work-and-more.html

    I just want to give everyone a wee update-to-the-update — to cut to the chase, Karen wasn’t fired.

    However. This is horrible and gossippy, but I am friends with the guy who has the office next door to Karen in the brick-and-mortar building, and he mentioned that Norman came into the office (he has been absent lately due to stuff with his dad’s death.) Norman had an hour-long closed-door meeting in Karen’s office. The walls in that building are pretty thin, but my friend said they didn’t need to be — Norman apparently got “fairly animated” (friend’s words) about being approached to sign things at his dad’s funeral, and then brought up that this isn’t the first time this has been an issue. (My friend didn’t elaborate, just said that my complaints “among all the others” had been brought up — and then he decided he didn’t want to be essentially caught with his ear to the door when Norman left, and he found a project elsewhere in the building.)

    Karen went home for the rest of the day after this talking-to, and that was on Tuesday. When she came back in on Wednesday, my friend said that she stuck mostly to herself, and is almost…hiding? People are coming to her for things rather than vice-versa, and she hasn’t paged ANYONE — not just me, but anyone. (I really don’t think anyone is missing it.)

    I think she is embarrassed, probably mostly by her behavior at the funeral, and is now laying low. I’m hopeful that this will be a wakeup call to her, and that she’ll understand that her need to get work done doesn’t trump EVERYTHING. My friend with the neighboring office also offered that he thinks Karen isn’t very happy at home, and that with our grandboss dying, she was probably trying to really sublimate herself in work and get through it — I can be sympathetic to that, even if I think bringing contracts to a funeral is WILDLY inappropriate.

    Anyway. Cheers! Thanks for all your validation and outrage on my/Norman’s behalf! You guys are all great (especially you, Alison!)

    1. Arctic*

      Thanks for the update!!!
      I can empathize with Karen in a very limited way. Her actions were totally inappropriate and she needed to be spoken too 100%. I can get being anxious and being too focused on work to see the forest for the trees though. But, still, she was out of control well before the funeral.
      Norman seems to have handled it correctly. He spoke to her in private (or as private as possible) and even if he got animated he seemed to keep it to legitimate complaints.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, sounds like she has her tail between her legs. And I think that’s an okay response; I’d actually be more concerned if she were bouncing around like nothing had happened. She may need to open up a little more soon, but if this is the route to dialing it back, that’s a good direction.

      And thanks for the update!

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m gobsmacked that 1) Norman coached her instead of firing her, and 2) that she seems to have taken it to heart. In my experience people like that have a lot of trouble and very little interest in mitigating their behavior, but I hope she’s the exception.

      1. fposte*

        I thought about that, and I wondered if Norman knew Karen well enough to have a more-than-usual belief that this would be effective.

      2. Thany*

        Did he coach her? It sounds like he mostly lectured (from the description) her. The key about this is whether it will stick. Right now she’s keeping her head down, but I agree that people like this don’t tend to change their behavior.

      3. Erin (who works from home)*

        Two things at work here: Karen’s been at this company a long, long, long time, and was previously managed by Norman’s dad (who was, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit past retirement age and willing to let a lot of stuff go.) This is essentially Norman’s first act as her direct boss — he’s been around, but not specifically supervising Karen, and now that he’s moving into his dad’s role, I think a looooot of stuff with her management is going to change.

        The other thing is that I’m a cynic and don’t think she’s changed so much as just cowed. I doubt she’ll take another contract to another funeral, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I get “Hellooooooooooooooooooooo?” pages still when I’m away once her scolding has worn off.

        1. Ali G*

          On the upside, now that you know Norman is likely to not take her crap, if she starts up again, you have an ally.

          1. valentine*

            Why not get rid of the work landline and have people call your mobile, which blocks Karen’s number? You can check for messages from her at standard intervals.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I want to really give her some sympathy and leeway here because I’m imaging she’s grieving for her boss as well.

          I know when my beloved boss who I didn’t even work for any longer passed away not so long ago, I was a wreck. I had to explain to my now boss what was going on and if I was dingy, weird, distant, teary or forgetful it was because of what my emotions were going through at the time. It took me a week to get the fog out of my head. So I can see that making her even more off her rocker.

    4. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Thanks for the update! I hope Karen learnt her lesson and contacts people only when really necessary for now on.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This isn’t a bad update at all, even though it wasn’t a quick and “GTFO!” firing like some of us were leaning heavy on.

      I’m glad that he talked to her and gave her the respect that she didn’t afford him at the funeral.

      I’m a positive person and I really hope Karen learns from this and isn’t going to slip back into bad behaviors.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I think I’m actually kind of glad to hear that Karen isn’t some horrible person, but perhaps a person so… clueless she doesn’t get it. Hopefully now she gets it.
      I hope your office settles down after the loss and that Karen chills.

  159. Jane*

    If you were discriminated against and let go “for cause” but the causes were made up just to fire you, how should you answer this question:
    Have you ever: (if yes please provide detailed info below)
    a. Been fired from a job?
    b. Quit a job after being told you would be fired?
    c. Left a job by mutual agreement following notice of unsatisfactory performance?
    d. Left a job by mutual agreement following charges or allegations of misconduct?
    e. Received a written warning, been officially reprimanded, suspended, or disciplined for misconduct in the workplace, such as violation of a security policy?

    Five years ago, after my pregnancy started showing, I was suddenly told there were “performance issues” at my work, and given a very short amount of time to fix the issues. I made my best efforts to fix the identified problems, but at seven months pregnant, I was given the option to either resign or be fired. I resigned. I truly believe it was pregnancy discrimination, and I considered legal action, but after consulting with an attorney I was told it would be difficult to win the case, and would be an awful experience. So I gave up and moved on with my life.

    Now, I have a fantastic new job offer at an old employer where I know a lot of people and have great references, but they’re asking this question on the application. I feel like I can’t win, no matter how I answer this question. If I tell the truth about being discriminated against, I sound like someone who might file lawsuits who should be avoided. I don’t really believe I had performance issues, but I don’t want to lie. I really don’t want them to call my old employer and hear that I had performance issues or that I was told I could resign or be fired. I’m leaning toward picking option c and saying I was not a good fit with the culture and there was no room for advancement. How would you answer this?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If they’re a decent employer, they’ll care about honesty, and they’ll know that those answers that might concern them should require explanation and discussion, not disqualification. So I’d answer those Yes, No, No, No, Yes, and be ready to explain. I think A and E are very broad, and I can’t imagine automatically screening out EVERYONE who had ever been fired from any job, much less reprimanded!

      1. fposte*

        I agree (it sounds more like b than a to me, but that doesn’t matter to the main point anyway). If you didn’t sue, this isn’t going to make people think you’re going to sue. You also don’t need to go into your belief that you were discriminated against–just set up the facts. “I worked there for X years, and it went really well for the first X-1. The last year, when I was pregnant, they raised new concerns about my work, but I was unable to address them in the short time frame, and I resigned.” Anybody with half a brain will pick up on the possible underlying narrative there.

    2. Suggestion*

      Here’s how I would answer and I agree with you.

      A – No
      B – No
      C – Yes, but you can explain exactly what you told us here
      D – No
      E – No

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Please be honest with them, it will be much easier to continue the dialog with them if they push you for more information.

      I’m glad they give you options at least. Most applications just say “Have you been fired? Yes? Byeeeeeee.” instead of recognizing as they have in this process there are reasons to why people get fired and they’re not all because someone is a terrible no good very bad employee!

      Especially since you also have references and connections with them, they’re even more likely to say “I cannot believe that Jane did anything that would constitute this kind of treatment at all, she must have worked for a tyrant.”

      Guess what. Ask every one of my old bosses who trust me with their businesses and their lives for the most part about the guy who “wrote me up” a couple of years ago. Ask them. We still laugh about that train wreck. Most people know that there are conflicts of character and just oil and water setups in business where you just have to cut your losses and someone terminates the working relationship.

      And also C is a good choice. Your performance there was an issue, even if it was a figment of someone’s imagination. You’ve now been removed from that situation by five years and you’ve had a lot of time to “learn” and evolve.

    4. Not A Manager*

      Have you considered picking C, and when asked, simply stating the facts without drawing a conclusion from them? “I’d always had glowing reviews and no performance issues, but during my pregnancy my employer gave me a very short time to rectify some newly-identified issues, and then in my last trimester they invited me to resign. I’ve never had an employment problem with any employer before or since.”

  160. Flower*

    I’ve been really stressed and don’t think I’ve been the best worker in terms of effective use of my time and insightful ways to look at my work, etc. But then that makes me anxious, gets me very much into imposter syndrome (as a grad student it’s always looming, and I’m in the process of my qualifying exams which make it worse), spirals into bad anxiety (which in trying to get myself into treatment for right now, but which has driven me to walks around the block a couple times recently to get tears under control), etc. I don’t think it’s my boss’s or coworkers’ jobs to reassure me or manage my emotions, and I’ve been trying to get my time usage under control recently, but is there a way I can check in and say “hey I think I haven’t been great recently, here’s how I’m trying to fix it, does that sound good” without coming across badly? For all I know nobody has noticed I’ve been bad at my job recently. But if they have I don’t want to leave that impression and if they haven’t, I almost want to know for that reassurance. How do I handle that?

    1. Adminx2*

      “I feel I haven’t been excelling lately, here’s how I’m trying to create new processes to address them. Can I get your feedback and ask if you have your own thoughts or ideas which could help?”

      That’s normal development right there.

      Good luck with the stuff, grad school is just a killer in general. Ativan helps me tons and limiting myself to only 2 “what ifs” and making sure my bucket is generally filled with self care can at least keep you solid.

      1. Flower*

        Thanks!

        A lot of what’s gotten in the way for me has been time management and easily getting distracted, so my most successful fixes have been things like deleting distracting apps and installing time management apps that don’t let me on certain websites while working. I worry that saying that just makes me look bad? I don’t know.

        1. Adminx2*

          Oh yeah just keep that to “I’ve streamlined my schedule to take specific breaks rather than getting distracted regularly, I’m checking email on a timed schedule and I’ve listed these as my prime priorities and these as my secondary priorities.”

  161. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Adjusting to the new[ish] job. I left a job I’d been at for a couple of years, where I had deep friendships. Now? More like polite conversation. The ladies hang out with the ladies, the guys with the guys–I kinda get a “high school gym pre-dance awkward” vibe. I’ve said hi to folks while in the office kitchen, but apart from a happy hour late next month, there’s really no socializing to speak of. Some people casually visit others’ desks but I don’t want to visit people’s desks for no reason/don’t want to be the awkward newbie trying too hard–y’know?

    And on a separate topic–trying for kids–when in the middle of job progression and you’re in your early/mid 30s, when does push go to shove? (sometimes I find myself waiting for that ‘perfect situation’ or ‘job stability’ or something and what if I turn 50 and realize it’s too late?)

    1. Adminx2*

      Do you WANT deep work friendships? Those are actually pretty rare IMO. You seem to be now in the other end of the pool and it’s best to just stick with it. Maybe after a year or two some warmth will become real connection, maybe not.

      As to age, it depends on how much you want to be a mom. Why not shove now?

    2. Rainy days*

      Honestly–what’s worse that having polite work relationships–is having work ruin a close friendship.

    3. Grace*

      Considering a friend of mine was trying to have her second kid in her mid 30s and was told that after 35, some doctors consider it a “senior” pregnancy, I’d say, if you want kids, go ahead and start trying. You also never know how long it might actually take.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Can verify, I was 35 when my first was born, 39 for my second. There are more appointments and tests and delays associated with “older mom” or “advanced maternal age” pregnancies, not to mention issues with secondary infertility, and I had very few problems overall.

        For me, career path was very secondary to the late start we got in trying for a baby. Though I did press hard for a promotion right before I had to announce my first pregnancy (rather than risk a delay with mat leave), because I figured I wouldn’t have the energy afterwards. I don’t feel that I was mommy-tracked even when I took 4 weeks of FMLA on top of mat leave and also went to a part time (37 hr week) schedule when I returned, but that can obviously vary by manager or company. My suggestion is, if kids are a goal, don’t wait for a best career time to come around. The best time is, when you know for sure you want kids and you have the right support at home for that.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      I had 1 kid in my mid-30s. I got a grad degree and a stable job with a good company, so we started trying at about 1yr in. Took us 5 (including 2 rounds of IVF), and I’d switched positions inside the company 2x. I’d been at the new position 2mo when I got pregnant. I got 6 weeks maternity leave.

      That worked out very well – I had enough time to learn the job and figure out what was critical and what wasn’t, then could come back to a familiar routine for a couple of years. I have actually stayed with that position longer than I intended – I used routine to support me through post-partum mental illness (OCD).

      Lesson? There’s no perfect situation or job stability. If your company’s good with pregnant employees, it’s a great time to have a kid, they will help you make it work.

    5. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Thanks folks. I think we might wait another year or so until we get a more permanent residence (house versus apt)–if things go according to plan. (Although, the apt does have a superb daycare adjoining it….). My current company has an excellent leave policy but I’ve barely started my 1st year in–and the work operates like contracted consulting companies, such that the current main project ends next Spring. I could easily hop onto another work project with the same company, different work site–but that’s got me a tad nervous.

      I was always one of those high-achiever type A kids who always set goals–when I accomplish X, I’ll do Y, et cetera. This should be interesting…

    6. Lilysparrow*

      If you’re personally and emotionally ready to have kids, don’t wait around for job stuff to give you “permission”, because it never will.
      There is never going to be a time when pregnancy or kids aren’t going to cause some kind of risk, difficulty, or slowdown in your work life. You just have to decide.

  162. Anon for this*

    How common is it for bonuses to be prorated for maternity leave? I understand it is legal, I’m asking more out of curiosity for if this is just how it is.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you mean that they’re prorating the bonus to take out the time you’re in maternity leave?

      It’s very common for bonuses to be prorated if you’re on unpaid leave of any kind. Same if it’s medical leave or an approved unpaid sabbatical. Bonuses are for an incentive to work , you forego that kind of incentive when you are on leave.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This is what I was thinking. It’s really sad that we don’t have paid maternity leave, but since it’s primarily LWOP/FMLA leave in the US, it would be difficult to justify changing the policy based on the reason for taking leave.

  163. Chasing Waterfalls?*

    Is there a good way to ask your boss why she thinks you’re qualified for a promotion she vagued at?

    Context: boss and I had a Big Talk about a month ago about Stuff, including my future in the company. Right now I’m an admin assistant (run errands, call the landlord, greet visitors, ship packages)-slash-IT person (set up new computers, “yes that email is a scam don’t open it”)-slash accounting data entry (enter payables to the proper gl, follow up on missing invoices, print and mail receivable invoices, etc). All pretty low-level stuff afaik. Apparently I’m doing great at all that, which is nice, but I want to earn more money which means moving up.

    My boss mentioned that there would be mid-level positions in the accounting being created when we expand this summer. But we’ve had previous conversations about “mid level” positions that turned out to be a job for an Actualfax CPA, not someone with an associates in IT who’s taken one accounting class and been entering invoices for a couple years. I don’t want to be pushy or negative, but I do want to be realistic in my hopes and if there’s anything I can do between now and whenever these jobs materialize to increase my knowledge (and my chances), I want to get a jump on it.

    Is this a fair thing to ask? Or should I just focus on my current work and try to chill out and wait for my review (later this month, supposedly)?

    1. Adminx2*

      I’d wait for the review, which you should be prepping for yourself with an overview of accomplishments, strengths and weaknesses AND some idea of where you want to grow into in the next few years. Discuss it directly there.

    2. BRR*

      If your review is later this month I don’t think you’ll lose anything by waiting but I also don’t think there’s any harm in bringing it up. You can definitely ask about following up on your previous conversation you’d be very interested in a position with more responsibilities at your company.

  164. Thany*

    I’m currently interviewing for a job that starts at 8AM in my niche desired field that can hopefully lead to my long term career goal. But the problem is that I am the worst morning person. I can barely get out of bed to my current job that starts at 9AM (I actually show up at 9:30 most of the time!). Any tips in how people can get going in the morning? I know there has been posts like this before, so you can add links as well.

    1. Suggestion*

      Coffee. Alarm clock. Multiple alarms on your phone. Going to bed earlier

      -Signed, someone who’s had to be at work at 7:30AM before and (rarely but it happens) 5:30AM

      1. Thany*

        I actually don’t drink coffee. I have a tendency towards migraines, and caffeine has triggered my migraines in the past, so I avoid most caffeine altogether.

    2. Adminx2*

      Routine routine routine. FORCE yourself to put down all the stuff a half hour before bedtime and have a bedtime routine which includes clothes placement, personal items placement, coffee placement, lunch placement, and anything else you need from the moment you wake up to the moment you arrive at work.

      Set your alarm and do not ever use the snooze, EVER. The alarm is off, take 10 seconds to stretch and get in your body, then ROUTINE again. Grab stuff, get going. Try really hard not to have meetings before 9.
      I’m not a morning person but I fake it really well until 10 am when I actually wake up.

      1. LCL*

        This. I have managing my 6:30AM start time for years following Adminx2 method. I’m not a morning person either. If I have time off longer than a long weekend, I drift back into my up until midnight, sleep until 9 pattern.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      I had to create a more pleasant early morning routine for myself that wasn’t just a scramble that was now an even earlier scramble. I don’t know if it would work for others, but instead of just trying to force myself to be up and out the door at 7 instead of 8, I had to actually get up at like, 5 and have a whole breakfast/coffee/morning news routine for a while. I eventually backed off of this but it did help me re-set and try to genuinely become more of a morning person.

      1. foolofgrace*

        This is also what I do. I have to leave for my 1-hour driving commute at 6 a.m., and my (first!) alarm goes off at 4:45 a.m. I usually just stretch and get up, have coffee, check my email, listen to the news on TV. I have to sort of groove into the day. Of course, I go to bed pretty early. Take showers the night before.

        1. Trixie*

          I find that at a certain point of early mornings, going to bed early is not a problem. I actually am ready to fall asleep because I’m so tired and after a good night’s sleep wake up more easily in the morning. The challenge is often not falling asleep by accident in front of tv or going to bed so early I wake up at 2 or 4am.

    4. KayEss*

      I found when I was having this problem that my biggest challenge was actually waking up enough to consciously recognize that I needed to get out of bed instead of hitting snooze again. That’s super hard for me based on the ambient light level, so I tried one of those “gently wakes you up by slowly increasing the light” daylight alarm clocks… no dice, those are made for people who don’t need a real alarm. My solution was eventually to get a regular outlet timer and plug one of those SAD lights into it, set to turn on at full blast about 2 snooze cycles in to my alarm system. That REALLY brings me into consciousness, let me tell ya… even in the darkest dead of winter. You have to make a concerted effort to sleep through that thing shining in your face. I don’t think I’ll ever be HAPPY to get up, but I’m no longer hitting snooze 5 times without even noticing and winding up late to work.

      1. Thany*

        THIS. This is exactly my problem. I’m not conscious enough to really be able to think through the consequences of my actions so I just hit snooze a million times.

        1. BRR*

          For this, I thinking putts your phone or alarm across the room so you have to get up might help. I have to get up early and have smart light bulbs. I found that waking up to a not dark house made it easier to get up.

          1. Kathenus*

            Yup. Non morning person here too. I have one alarm on the bedside and I build snoozing into my morning routine because it works for me. Then I have another alarm that I have to get out of bed to snooze or turn off, and have it set for two different alarms 15 minutes apart, just for those unusual times when I actually go back to sleep after the first one :)

            And for an interview I’d plan everything to be ready as if the interview was at 7, not 8, to give even more buffer just in case. Good luck!

    5. Val Zephyr*

      It sounds obvious, but go to bed earlier. Its a lot easier to get up early if you’ve had a good night’s sleep. And, if possible, keep the same sleep schedule on the weekends so it becomes routine.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t know if this is quite helpful, but it might be worth a shot — I am a morning person as long as the sun is up, which means my default is like 4:30am in July and 8:30am in December. All my life, getting up at 6am to be at work in the winter has been super awful, like six alarms and blasting light in my face (which stopped being an option when I wasn’t sleeping alone anymore). This winter, I started taking 5000 IU of vitamin D daily, and one alarm is doing the trick at 5:45am every day like a champ.

      My husband, who is NOT a morning person, has also found that the vitamin D (same quantity) helps him wake up easier, but his findings weren’t quite as dramatic as mine — probably because I was already closer to a morning person than he was. But it might still be worth a shot? a bottle of 100 of the 5000IU gelcaps at Target is like $6, I think, and I started noticing improvement within a week of taking them.

      1. Thany*

        Interestingly enough, I recently had blood work done and my Vitamin D levels were extremely low. So I just started on Vitamin D supplements this week. I haven’t really noticed a difference yet, but I will keep it in mind. Thanks!

    7. just a thought*

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/night-owl-with-new-early-bird-work-schedule.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/10/ask-the-readers-how-can-i-stop-being-late.html

      I got a sunrise alarm clock, and that helps me wake up more easily.
      So does the alarm I Can’t Wake Up that makes you do puzzles for it to turn off.
      I also make sure to have everything done the night before or reminders go off for something I need in the morning. I just ordered a bathroom clock to make sure I don’t spend too much time getting ready. Some youtuber recommended it and I can’t believe I never thought of that before.

    8. LGC*

      Habit.

      I never considered myself a morning person before I started at my current job. I set an alarm early about two weeks before I started to get used to it.

    9. KR*

      I got this Android app that has an option for the alarm to say what time it is when it goes off. I’ve found this helps me so so much because instead of just blindly turning my alarm off I can hear what time it is. So I have a couple alarms that get me up and break my sleep cycle, then I snooze until I either manage to get up like I should or I hear the 6:15 alarm and freak out and get up because that means I need to get up NOW. Also means I know what time it is without opening my eyes. App is called Early Bird Alarm and may be available for iPhone (or something similar). That and I have two dogs and a cat who don’t let me sleep in because they demand to be fed at 5 in the morning (unfortunately I can actually feed them and get back into bed not even consciously…)

  165. robineer*

    Hey all! Any Aerospace Engineers or Physics majors based in CA here? If so, could you share what the job market is like? Does Alison’s resume and cover letter advice extend to jobs focused in the sciences? Asking for a friend.

    1. robineer*

      Should’ve mentioned: he’s currently in a doctoral program, and about to complete his second year. He’s wondering if he should just take the masters and start job hunting or complete the doctoral program. He doesn’t have much in work experience other than tutoring.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Some positions are restricted to PhDs, and I’d expect government, academia, and think tanks to be that way.
      Industry, less so. Also, there are probably career fairs at his school at the appropriate times of year that he should frequent and see what employers are interested in.

      Nothing prevents him from doing internships at companies in the meantime though, from very academic ones at Microsoft to very hands-on ones at Tesla.

      My experience as a spectator to the progress of multiple PhDs in physics suggests that it is not a good choice as a mere general income enhancer, and has huge opportunity costs. It is best suited for very talented people who can make quick progress and/or not let that work consume their lives, those very set on academia, those who thrive in that environment, and those with extremely supportive and functional normal advisors.

      1. Maya Elena*

        Close family member is finishing PhD and lots of friends went through and on to related careers over several years. One wanted to quit but at 5 years in it seemed too much sunk cost; but is now just racing to get out. A few are doing quite well, some just dropped out at various stages for various types of industry jobs.

        1. robineer*

          Thanks so much for your input! I have other friends who also dropped the doctoral program and just went with their masters. It is definitely a hard decision.

  166. Nessun*

    Soo…kinda losing my mind. I accepted a new role in December, which was a great career opportunity (moved me off a role that I was content to be in but went nowhere) and that was better for my budget (20% pay rise, whoo!), but I knew it would be a BIG challenge. Now I think I might have underestimated that by a few magnitudes. It’s a new role for me, but it’s also a new role, period – it was created, I got it, and we’re building it from the ground up. And it was an ask by two ladies who are now dotted-line bosses for me (and who report to my previous and current Big Boss) – they are so thrilled to have help where they didn’t before, they are now inundating me with things I can take off their plates. I know that’s the goal here, but…I am drowning. I’m trying to find ways to stay positive (I know I can do this, but moment to moment I’m sorta more stressed than I’ve been in years), and I’m trying to find places to de-stress…I don’t know.

    The other issue is, I haven’t given away my old job. I can download some stuff to another person, but she’s a temp. She’s good, but some things she can’t handle or isn’t allowed to take on. I’ll have more help later – but I mean LATER. As in, December. Until then, it’s her and I. So I’m juggling asks from two roles, and some things are sliding. I’m fine with working longer to get it all done, but I find I’m running out of bandwidth by the evening and need to get out of the office so I can decompress in decent time to come back and do it all again.

    I think this is part vent (drownding!!) and part ask – anyone got some good suggestions for helping myself stay sane and relatively stressless, reminding myself I can do this and not getting too bogged down in the immense amount of email I now get? I’m mostly an optimist, but yeah…this is fun. /s

    1. Adminx2*

      You gotta make an offboard and an onboarding plan. List everything, make a timeline on when/how it will be taken off/on your plate, show it to all your bosses and ask for their input/help in putting it into action. Your bosses may be shocked to know how much your old job which you are NOT being paid for is still being done.

      Remember if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, they would do fine. Maybe not great, but they would deal.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh dear yes you 100% need to get that old job off your plate entirely! And you need support on that from the org. Otherwise, they are really setting you up to fail – a demanding new job that’s never been done before, but you’re still doing your old job also? That is a recipe for disaster, and you need everyone to be very clear on that. If they can’t move you off the old job full time yet, then you are going to have to do 50% old 50% new and defend those boundaries. Or they agree that you are not to hear, see, smell anything related to your old job and just leave them to flail their way through it. Those are both more reasonable than what they’ve got going, where you just … do two jobs. This is THEIR problem.

    3. Dorma*

      Gaaah, I have no advice because I’m in the same boat. I got promoted but they haven’t filled my old role yet, so I have been doing both jobs since the summer. My boss is sympathetic but basically said “All of this work needs to get done.” And it does! We are a government department with fixed tasks for each fiscal year and it does, really, all need to get done. But I cannot finish 80 hours’ worth of work in 40 hours, and I cannot work overtime (government job=hourly yet simultaneously exempt & barred from overtime). And off-the-books overtime just leads to arguments with my spouse, who (quite logically) feels that I should be at home and contributing to childcare unless I’m getting paid to be at work.

      In two months I’ll go out on new-parent leave when our next baby comes, but what do I do until then? The expectation seems to be that I will finish huge portions of the annual work before I go so that there isn’t much left to do while I’m on leave. I.e. do two jobs, and also complete 12 months of work in 10 months while you’re at it. I feel like a crummy employee because I’m missing so many work targets that I never used to miss, and like I’m not going to pass probation for my promotion because of that.

      1. Nessun*

        So much sympathy – I can’t imagine throwing parenthood into this mix, so kudos to you for your bravery and best of luck with the new baby! I think we both need to be realistic about what we can and can’t do…including documenting any roadblocks so it’s clear what we’ve tried to do. Hopefully there’s more help in the near future. (There’s that optimistic streak coming back!)

        And I see what you did there…all the love for Puccini!

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      You should do whatever you can to get yourself ONE direct manager, even if two are still assigning you work. Like, maybe your two new bosses are able to give you work, but you report directly to only one of them.

      If you have one manager, not two, it’s going to be a lot easier to prioritize and ESPECIALLY get your old masters to realize that the solution to all their problems cannot be you. Your current boss can then go to your old boss and say, “I cannot have Nessun (Dorma?) working on XYZ any longer. I need her focused on doing what she needs to do for OUR department.” You also have more wherewithal to negotiate between your two bosses — “Official Manager, I have XYZ and DEF on my plate for you, but Lucinda would also like me to handle ABC. Realistically, I can handle only two of these. How should we proceed?”

      If you can’t get one official manager, I would at least try to get both of yours on your side with going to your old department and telling them they need a different solution, or at least putting that work on a VERY relaxed timeline so you can do your current job.

      1. Nessun*

        Luckily they do work together, and with my Big Boss – the old and new jobs are different but the people involved all know each other. Its actually where the whole thing started – people who know each other and me saying I’d be a good choice for the role based on what they all saw me on before. You raise a good point I hadn’t fully considered; I dont know how much each lady knows about what the other one is giving me. I can certainly explain the expectations they’ve each got , and what’s on my plate, when I speak with them – and I can ask them to connect with each other on that too. Thanks!

  167. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    OMG! Update in the great-search for a crew member that’s been a debacle for about a month now.

    So we post online and ask for a resume/short skills test be submitted, then we interview those who follow those directions.

    But for the first time, we had someone just swing by to slide into our IRL DMs. I have a background where this is not totally abnormal because it’s not like they’re cold calling, they know we have a job opening. So whatever, do you, bro.

    But my floor manager and CSR are floored by this phenomenon while our CEO is thrilled, he really does like gumption in that kind of form. He actually said in passing that he was cool with people calling in and asking a question or two if they were really interested, whereas I sideyed him on that one and was all “I prefer they keep it digital at least because calls are a bit much.”

    I’m super excited to see this play out and if they offer the guy the job and his story. Maybe it’s the Red Bull wings or maybe it’s because I’m loony toons because the HR portion of my job has done some really wacky things to my perceptions of people, it plays into my love for human psychology o.O

  168. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I’m no longer the only woman at the office! The owner hired a trainee recently, and the rest of the office went, well… mad. First, a new-ish employee said something along the lines of “finally! a girl!”, which was definitely offensive (“what am I then, a plant?”), then other criticized her handbag as too cutesy and girlish to be taken seriously (it’s has unicorns and rainbows), and the rest take turns trying to hit on her. Ick, ick, ick. I told them many times to stop, but I’m afraid she’ll be gone before the end of the month leaving a harassment complaint behind.

  169. ProbablyNotASandwich*

    Help! I am looking for any advice anyone has for dealing with working near a dude who I am completely B.E.C. about – he makes slurping, sucking noises all the way down every cup of coffee, tea or soup, and keeps snorting instead of blowing his nose, and that then makes him cough. It makes me feel physically ill.

    Because of all of that, I’m finding it very hard to just let stuff go with him – when he takes half an hour to make a cup of coffee or when I go to get water and I find him reading the paper, or when he seems to take a very long time for lunch – I know that should all be manager stuff and not relevant to me, because it’s not affecting my workload, but I’m just so irritated!

    Also I’m finding myself falling into gossiping a bit, or at least sharing a “yuck” conversation with colleagues when he is not there. I don’t like working with headphones – I need to be approachable if people want to speak to me – but I’ve tried to use those any time I see him with his cup, which definitely helps. The snorting is still nauseating though.

    So – this is not my circus, these are not my monkeys, how have other people let this kind of thing go out of their heads?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I roll eyes internally and then say “welp can’t change others. Fred being Fred.” And think something more pleasant.

      It’s hard and takes discipline. Just find a way to “recognize he stinks” and off to another race in your mind. Resist the urge to dwell seethe.

      1. ProbablyNotASandwich*

        Resisting the urge to dwell and seethe is exactly what I need to do – I suppose it’s likely to be one of those things that can be built into a habit, it is very hard!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Think of it as a brain exercise for yourself.

          Everyone wants to know why I’m so chill and can just let things roll off my back most days, it’s because I simply don’t dwell longer than a few moments at any time.

          Believe me, I vent plenty as well! But it’s one of those things where you really can just “write it on a piece of paper and throw it away, now it’s done with!” kind of tricks to each yourself. Then put it out of your mind with something that makes you happy.

          Example “I see Billy is wasting time and sniffing his snot again…Billy is so gross.” Then it’s one of those “I am going to go to the pet store on the way home and get my cat some treats, kitty needs treats.” because thinking of my cat makes me happy, you know?

          I think this is where my smidgen of ADD helps me out too. I really could seethe if I tried but as I get older, the less energy I have to do bother with that.

          1. ProbablyNotASandwich*

            Thank you – this is really useful and something I can definitely work on putting in to practise. You’re so right that it’s not worth bothering the energy on

    2. Lilith*

      Hand him a box of tissues every time. I don’t know about the slurping. Maybe say “hot?,”

      1. ProbablyNotASandwich*

        I am *so* tempted to, but there’s been a suggestion that it’s cultural and that’s not a line I want to cross in our workplace. Just so gross :(

    3. Free Meerkats*

      I was ordered by my ENT to stop blowing and snort instead. It changed me from 4 or 5 sinus infections a year to less than one. I try to do it quietly, but I’m not starting to blow again.

      But the slurping? I’m there with you.

      1. ProbablyNotASandwich*

        Ah, okay, he’s… definitely not quiet about anything he does, but I hadn’t realised that there could be a medical reason behind snorting – that’s going to be helpful for reframing in my brain thank you. Sinus infections are entirely the pits so I’m glad to hear you’re not as inflicted. Hopefully he’ll get better soon and that won’t be an issue constantly anyway.

        I’m amazed at the amount of noise he can make from start to finish, like, there’s an EFFORT involved in slurping from a full cup all the way down to empty (the action to slurp from an empty mug would drown one on a full mug, I think).

        Headphones, reframing and refocusing look like the way forward.

        1. valentine*

          You can ask him to stop it all. If he says culture (So? He blow or leave the room) or medical, you’ll have done almost all you can. It’s revolting and he can do his job without slurping every beverage or sucking back snot.

  170. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Question for those of you who have made a big cross country move for personal reasons (especially trailing spouses). How do you do it???! I’m finding it really hard being a long-distance candidate and figuring out the logistics.

    My spouse and I will be moving across the country for her to go to grad school in the fall. We’re still waiting to hear from schools so I can’t really dive into job hunting 100% yet as I’m not totally sure where we are moving. I am currently the main breadwinner. I will need to find work when we move, but I’m in a pretty niche field and all of my job searches have taken some time. We do have some savings–do I just quit my job with nothing lined up and move with her? (I’m terrified of that!) Do I try to maintain two households so I can keep working while I look for a new job in our new city? How the heck do I qualify to rent or buy somewhere to live without a job lined up? This seems impossible. All advice welcome.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      How the heck do I qualify to rent or buy somewhere to live without a job lined up?

      Sock away a lot of cash and have some proof of funds to hand. Example: When I did a cross-country move, I reached out via website to the local branch of a nation-wide real estate brokerage. They connected me with a Realtor in the destination city. I talked to her about our household’s requirements (square footage, distance to amenities, month-to-month and/or short-term was OK, etc.) and our budget. Since both of us would be unemployed when we got there, we decided to show the landlord proof that we’d be good for a full year’s rent. We put a lot of trust into her and it turned out all right. But doing this via Craigslist or whatever wouldn’t have cut it. We needed a professional.

      Also, consider going month-t0-month, and/or leasing for under a year. We were happy to get a sub-year lease because we figured we would land in the new city and take several months to get our bearings, get work, and find a better house/neighborhood. By the time our lease was up, we were sure we didn’t want to stay in that house. The landlord decided to sell the house, and we opted not to put in an offer, because it didn’t work for us in a lot of ways. (No hard feelings, though, against landlord or Realtor: we did not take a special “scouting” type of trip to the city to look for housing before we moved, so we were totally in her hands, and the place was objectively not bad, it just wasn’t for us.) But month-to-month or shorter-term will give you flexibility to move once you get more familiar with your new town.

    2. OtterB*

      I’ve made two moves where my spouse with the new job went ahead and I stayed behind to finish up a commitment of one kind or another (work-related in one case, school year in the other). Both times we moved most of our stuff with leading spouse and I moved into a smaller place with as little stuff as possible in the old location.

      If you want to buy in the new location, you’ll need to have the money and employment to qualify for a mortage. If you’re renting in the new place and your spouse will be a graduate student, then requirements for income verification for a student are probably less stringent.

      In one case, I successfully found a job in our new location by saying in my cover letters that I was in the process of relocating to city X for personal reasons. In the other case I was planning to work remotely part-time for my old employer after we moved, so job hunting wasn’t a factor.

      Good luck with it. It’s complicated, but hopefully doable.

    3. KR*

      Honestly I was a trailing spouse to a very remote area thousands of miles from my home town and I was jobless for four months. Good luck ~~~~~~~~ (those are good luck waves)

    4. Anax*

      I moved to my long-distance significant others, so not quite a trailing spouse – but close. I tried to do applications while working, but between a fairly cognitively intense job, burnout, and distance, I ended up moving without a job lined up. Burned savings for four months, and I’m now employed.

      Logistically – if you can swing it economically, I found it much better to move without something lined up than to keep planning and hoping. The costs of moving are a lot more manageable if you can plan them a few months ahead of time, and when I was long-distance, I found myself spending all my time talking to my significant others rather than doing job applications. It’s a real emotional drain to play ‘hurry up and wait.’

      In my field, it’s also likely that any position I qualified for from afar would involve no relocation assistance, and unpaid plane rides to on-site interviews with little notice. Your field might vary, but that definitely impacted the economic calculations for me.

    5. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Thank you! These are really helpful suggestions. It makes it a little trickier in my situation that we are moving for grad school (so not for a lucrative job) and so it’s extra important that I’m working as soon as possible. I do have a good amount of savings though and can at least pay rent for a time while we get settled. I’m just very scared to leave a good job/career path for a new place without any leads. (And I can’t get leads while we are still uncertain where we are moving! – April 15th can’t come fast enough). Until then, I’ll be working on saving saving saving.

  171. A Nonny Mouse*

    I just wrote out a question and the internet ate it. : (

    My dilemma is the opposite of this afternoon’s thread – I need help recovering from a toxic staff. I am finishing up a PhD, and I am on the job market for both academic and non-academic positions. Although I have lots of experience in informal leadership, I have only had one job where i managed a staff, and it was awful and resulted in me crying daily for a year before I was able to leave.

    I worked in a university-local government partnership program, where I supervised three full-time staff, about 100 volunteers, and was ultimately responsible for the 350 children they worked with. I worked for one partner, my staff for the other. I was responsible for all components of the program, including staff performance, but without any evaluation mechanism. And to be frank, these people acted like children. No, the children acted better. I left after two years, but with my faith in myself absolutely shaken.

    So now I am applying for positions where management is necessary and I have no faith, even though I know rationally that I was in a very toxic environment and set up to fail (I needed to implement unpopular major program changes that came from on high). How do I feel more confident for my job search?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Honestly jump in and give it your best try, don’t wait until you feel confident! Waiting to recover your ego first will only draw the process out. Once you’re back in the game, trying to schmooze new hiring managers,you’ll start brushing off the toxic waste you’ve been submerged in!

    2. JobHunter*

      FWIW, my advice is based on a handful of management positions. I wrangled far fewer people than you did!

      Instead of recalling the entire circus, pick a couple of the times you had to organize a group activity or discussion where you had to get everyone to cooperate to meet a common goal. Break it down using the STAR approach. Reflect on how you you grew as a result of that experience. Ask yourself: if you could do it over, how would you do it? Build your confidence by identifying alternative actions you could have taken and by accepting that sometimes you just don’t have every the answer right when you need it.

  172. Anax*

    I recently moved to a new city, and started a new job about three weeks ago. I’m loving it so far; the people are great, I have fun problems to solve, and there are good opportunities for advancement.

    I had a couple of other offers which were more stereotypically “high-achieving”. I would have been in intensive training for months, and I probably would have been too exhausted to pursue my hobbies (or much else) for a year.

    The pay and benefits were the same, the resume-building was the same, I didn’t click as well with the people, there was a good chance of layoffs, and they were open-plan offices. Yuck!

    I’m sure I made the right decision, but I’m having irrational feelings of guilt for being “lazy”, by taking a job that wouldn’t take 100% of my mental resources 100% of the time.

    Any advice on how to combat those feelings?

    (To no one’s surprise, I’m in IT and have ‘gifted kid syndrome’.)

    1. Montresaur*

      Erstwhile gifted kid here. I feel like I can relate; I’m in a creative field and spent my twenties on the edge of or in active burnout because all I was thinking about was proving I could keep up and wasn’t afraid to work hard. Ultimately my work quality suffered, because of course it did. I came very close to never doing the creative work I loved at all, even personal passion projects I genuinely cared about.

      No one piece of your 360-degree life can consume all of your attention. I’m a better, happier person because I learned to balance my focus. It’s smart of you to recognize where you want to allocate your resources, and admirable that you acted on that awareness. You already know the feelings are irrational; it sounds like it’s rooted in FOMO, and that’s never a good reason to do anything so rigorous as the job you described. High five (or whatever you prefer) for not caving to that. It’s not laziness to want a life outside of work, whatever that work is.

      1. Anax*

        Thanks; I think you’re right that it’s FOMO, and I hadn’t framed it that way before. That’s a lot more actionable than “feeling like a wimp”, which is how I had been framing it.

        I’ve spent a lot of time in burnout too – it was actually part of why I was looking for a change after my last job, because I’d spent five years in a self-imposed quest to be the super-achiever who knew everything, and that’s never possible.

        IT can have this really poisonous culture where people are expected to have an all-consuming passion for the job that leads to long hours and even longer study or “””play””” off the job. I imagine creative fields can be similar.

        I love my job, but once I’ve put my 8 hours in, I want to put the job down and do something completely different.

  173. TechWorker*

    I love the company I work for – good pay, good commute, great colleagues and generally good management. I’ve been here ~5 years.

    I’ve also basically hated my job for the last 5 months – I took a step up in responsibility but without a full promotion and took over a project that, now in hindsight, I’m seeing was badly managed for at least the year before I took over.

    This week my manager took over some of my role because it finally became clear that I was massively overloaded and it wasn’t physically possible to track/manage everything and actually do my work (I’ve been saying this since November, so go figure).

    Things are.. potentially going to improve but I’m q bitter that it took me nearly having a breakdown to convince my manager that things were unworkable, and the current plan involves me having less responsibility vs giving me a team that’s actually capable of delivering. (There’s 6 of us, 2/3 have less than 18mnths experience, this is not average or standard across the company).

    I’m stressed and burnt out and considering applying elsewhere. Thoughts? Does it make sense to move jobs just for one (admittedly 2+ year) project (given I like the company in general?)

  174. A Tale of Two Teams*

    Allison, can you delete my thread further up, fourth comment from the top? And delete this comment too?

    Thanks.

  175. Eight*

    I’ve been interviewing at several hospitals recently for administration positions, and one thing I’ve noticed in all of them is that no one seems to know what the vacation and benefits are. I’m not that surprised that they don’t know the salary, but at my current workplace (nonprofit agency), the PTO policy and benefits are pretty clear and readily available in our employee handbook. At every place, I’ve gotten “I don’t know” and that I’d have to take it up with HR if I got to the point of hire. Is this just a thing with hospitals, or larger companies in general? Is it weird that I find it weird?

    (Also, I’m going nuts waiting to hear back from my top choice…they told me they’d get back to me “in the next couple of weeks” and this is now the end of week 3 after my interview. Not feeling optimistic about it.)

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I work at a large hospital system in an administration role with some input to hiring and some of our benefits are pretty cut and dried (vacation is x days for your first 5 years, y to 10 years, and z after that for non-exempt roles), but others either have a bunch of options or they vary based on salary or both. Like, depending on various factors, my health care premium for me covering just myself could literally range anywhere from ten bucks a paycheck to $140, depending on what I want and what my salary is, and that gets even more complicated if I have a spouse, children, or both that need covering. So in general, we tend to refer benefits questions to HR, because they know the ins and outs better than we do, even if we have the booklet handy. We also don’t know if you’re asking that as an intro to trying to negotiate for different options, which we flat out cannot do and I don’t know if HR can, I just know that I for sure can’t. So maybe one or both of those are relevant?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        (Though I guess that you’re probably not trying to negotiate at the interview, so that’s less likely. Disregard that one. Also, I forgot to say, good luck!)

  176. To withdraw or not?*

    I was offered a job and verbally accepted it a few days ago. However, I won’t actually be starting until the middle of this month. Most of the websites I used to apply to jobs allow me the option of going back in and withdrawing my application. Should I go back in and withdraw from the other jobs I’ve applied to, or should I wait until I actually start this one? I’ve already been offered an interview elsewhere and declined. I don’t want to annoy people by turning down interviews when I’ve already accepted an offer, but the part of me that’s paranoid thinks maybe I should wait until I actually start the job. What do you all think? I definitely wouldn’t be accepting any interviews I was offered during this time, but I’m just worried something will go wrong somewhere and I’ll be back at square one.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s more annoying for you to withdraw without them even expressing interest! It’s no problem for me at least to extend an invite and then get a “sorry not available any longer” response. Most people don’t even do that, they just ignore your requests, which isn’t the best way to go about it in my opinion.

      If you have an offer and you accepted, it is pretty bad faith to continue to go on interviews in my opinion as well. However others I’ve talked to recently are like “Nope, I keep dipping my toes in until I’m actually in my new found seat, you never know!”

      1. To withdraw or not?*

        Yes, I definitely will not be going on any more interviews! I’m just worried that because it took me so long to get this job, if I withdraw my interest from these positions (which would just be by clicking the “withdraw application” button on the website, not via email or anything) I’ll then be really far behind if something goes wrong. I’m glad to know it won’t be annoying if I decline any other interviews once they’re offered! Thanks for your input!

      2. TechWorker*

        ‘It’s more annoying for you to withdraw without them even expressing interest’ – why, out of interest? If you’re shortlisting people to interview then surely it cuts down that process if someone just wants to take themselves off the list?

    2. Anax*

      When you’re actually contacted, I would just write,

      “Hi [name],

      I’ve actually already accepted another position, but thank you so much for your consideration. I’ll be sure to let you know if anything changes, and I’ll keep [company] in mind in the future.”

      That sort of response must happen all the time for recruiters, right? And it seems like useful information for them to know – that perhaps they’re losing candidates by taking too much time in their consideration process, rather than because of bad press or something else.

      (Also, not gonna lie, I applied for about 50-75 jobs per week while I was job-hunting for four months, and I don’t have the energy to track all those open applications down, particularly when I know most of them won’t even request an interview at this point. That’s a prohibitive amount of work for very limited benefit.)

      1. To withdraw or not?*

        Thanks for the script! That’s pretty similar to what I said to the interview offer I got after accepting this job. I actually have a list of all the places I applied to and any responses I’ve gotten, so I could go back into the websites that have the option to withdraw, but I feel that it would probably be pretty useless for most of them. Some of them are places where I did a phone interview months ago and they never contacted me for an in-person interview, or places I applied to last fall– our field moves pretty slow, but not THAT slow. I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t breaking some sort of convention!

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Do you have the offer in writing? If yes, then turn down interviews; if not, keep accepting interviews until you have the offer in writing and any background checks have been passed. Unfortunately, we’ve all heard horror stories about offers falling through between the verbal offer stage and the signed-on-the-dotted-line stage.

      1. To withdraw or not?*

        I don’t have anything formal, but I do have emails from the manager confirming the start date, that they’re excited to have me join the team, etc. I do know that I passed the background check and other screenings, and I have that in writing (emails) as well.

  177. Arjay*

    I just can’t today. We have a staff of 150 people and when they make a certain error, it comes to me to correct. It’s not a difficult correction, but it’s annoying even on a good day. Today is not a good day. I just received 3 requests in 11 minutes because 3 individuals apparently don’t know the difference between February and March. I’m usually very responsive to these requests, but I’m just done for today. I have actual work of my own to do and it becomes so difficult to focus with these interruptions all day long. They’re just going to have to wait.

    1. Mrs_helm*

      Btdt, fwiw. Had a bunch of “can you set this Approved item back to Draft because I forgot to…” this morning. At least they caught it before reporting.

  178. coffeeforone*

    Has anyone ever effectively brought up low salaries from a general perspective in a performance review or conversation with their boss?

    Our review always includes “how can [Company] do better?” and I have had positive experiences in my time here answering this question thoughtfully, but critically and seen action on my feedback. Recently our workplace has been on a real “invest in our people!” push, but this seems to mean more in-office professional development and more pressure on executives to be engaged in employee recognition and appreciation.

    Both of these are great improvements! But ultimately, I know multiple team members are considering leaving this year because their salaries are below the poverty line in our city and there is literally no opportunity for raises outside of an annual cost of living raise, or a promotion (and there are no team vacancies). One of my direct reports has a second job in the evenings and weekends, and my other report has mentioned she’s started babysitting for neighbors for extra cash.

    I’m in a nonprofit industry, so I know this is is expected but 1) it’s frustrating as a manager to know the biggest impact on your employees is that they can’t survive on their salary and I have no ability to impact this, and 2) the “employee investment” language from the executive level is clearly building friction among staff who would much rather be able to buy food than have another “lunch and learn” opportunity. How do I say this in a meaningful way? Obviously everyone brings up money at review time, but I really trust and respect my boss and want to talk about it from the larger perspective of the impact it’s having (not a personal request for a raise).

    1. Reba*

      I mean, low salary may be expected, living below the poverty line (!!!!) is something else again. I think if your company is not paying a living-freaking-wage that would certainly make these opportunities and talk of investment ring VERY hollow. Honestly, I know this stuff happens and people get second jobs, but if your company cannot pay people enough to live I’d worry about its long term health, too.

      I don’t really have advice or experience with this, but I just want to say I think it’s great that you are looking out for your people this way and willing to speak up. Depending on the circumstances, I might avoid saying that you *know* people want to leave but rather that you fear losing good people. Maybe expressing it as you have here, that you are frustrated by having your hands tied about money, your reports can’t live on the money and so you will lose them and neither you nor they are happy about that. Good luck! It sounds like management values your perspective.

      1. coffeeforone*

        Thank you! That’s very kind. I am satisfied with my salary (other than, you know, extra savings is always nice), but I’m also lucky to have not accrued any student debt through a combination of saving from teen jobs + helpful, contributing parents. I think being lucky and privileged in this way gives you more of a duty to speak up for others who aren’t. The worst part is we are hardly even close to some of the lowest salaries in the industry that I’ve seen in my area. We live in an expensive city, so in other places these salaries might actually be decent for entry level roles, but here it’s just not sustainable (or competitive!).

  179. Pennalynn Lott*

    Related to the question about modest business wear: Is there a resource for plus-size blazers whose hem is *longer* than the full-length sleeves? Preferably with more than one button, and definitely machine-washable.

    I have a large belly and would prefer to cover it up, all the way to my crotch. But all I can find are pantsuits and separates with jackets whose sleeves hang longer than the hem by an inch or two (or three).

    1. Catsaber*

      ASOS has a lot of long-line blazers, so you might try there. You can also google “long-line blazer/jacket” to return similar results. “Long line” means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, so you may be getting mid-thigh for some, and mid-calf for others.

  180. AdAgencyChick*

    Dear recruiters,

    Why would you email me at my work address?* Spend the damn money and get a premium LinkedIn account.

    *Especially for a job I’m not qualified for or remotely interested in? It’s like they saw on LinkedIn that I’m a Group Llama-Herding Manager, so they thought they should email me about a Group Snake-Feeding Manager.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I got a message on Linked in from a recruiter yesterday asking my opinion on “healthcare and physician group best practices”… I worked at a quasi-medical school three years ago as a fundraiser, I have absolutely no background in medicine much less healthcare best practices! It’s like they see one matching phrase and think, yep good enough.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Hahahaha, this happens to me too. Let’s say I’m a copywriter who writes about veterinary products…I used to get recruiters spamming me to be the head of a veterinary school. This hasn’t happened in a while, but at the time I was like “you do NOT want me operating on your dog, friend. DELETE!”

  181. Lynne879*

    I think I mentioned last week that I had a job interview last week, but I didn’t do very well. They said they were going to make a hiring decision by the end of this week so they can fill the position quickly… well it’s the end of the day and I still haven’t heard anything.

    Look, I know I didn’t do well in my interview but the least they could do is send me a quick email saying that they went with another candidate. It’s just rude to leave a candidate hanging like that.

    1. foolofgrace*

      Sadly, it’s not unusual. I got a rejection email last week and I thought it was very nice of them to say so instead of just radio silence.

    2. TechWorker*

      Whilst I agree it’s also worth taking their timelines with a pinch of salt, because they’re not likely to update you if ‘something came up’. It’s also common to tell the successful candidate before rejecting others (and sort of necessary, what if choice #1 says no?) though that’s probably not reassuring :(

  182. almondmilk*

    First office job and was wondering how to navigate this issue.

    My work consists of creating programs/scripts/reports for other employees (usually managers). My manager has me make guides for everything I create so people can reference it when they need help. However, I often get emails saying “The thing you made me broke again.” where the error is always user-related and clearly addressed in the guide. I usually respond with something along the lines of “You need to do X. Please see the guide for more details.”

    A lot of the time, they respond with “Can you just fix it?” I explained this situation to my manager who basically told me to suck it up and fix it for them. I can’t help but feel that making the guides are a complete waste of time then.

    Will I seem defensive if I explain why the error is happening in my email responses? Also, will I seem insubordinate if I push back on making guides?

    1. OtterB*

      The thing is that you don’t know how many requests you DON’T get because people read the guides, fix it themselves, and don’t ask you.

      Since you’re doing the work mainly for managers, you’re probably limited in how much of their time you can take, but you might be able to ask “How can I make the guides more useful to you?”

    2. foolofgrace*

      I would think no problem to explaining what the error was. I wouldn’t push back on the guides, though.

    3. Anax*

      It sounds to me like your guides might be too long.

      What I’ve discovered is that a LOT of people don’t like to read long pages of text. If you can manage a very brief, bullet-pointed list, and better yet, screenshots, that might help. There isn’t really a good way to make people read and absorb multiple paragraphs of text, unfortunately, even if you know they’re intelligent, competent people whose job heavily involves reading.

      (I’m a programmer and I also have this problem, so I feel it.)

      If you’ve made the guide as good as you can, though, I would have them watch and show them how to do it as they worked. Even if you’ve explained it before, if they know they aren’t saving any time or attention by giving the problem to you, it might help – rather than having you just fix it invisibly, which might sound temptingly easy.

      And honestly, if making guides isn’t taking up an inordinate amount of time, I’d do it anyway. If nothing else, the next programmer in ten years probably won’t know who used this, what it was for, if it’s still relevant, and any cool stuff you did with the code that isn’t 100% obvious – and speaking as someone who deals with a lot of legacy code, I always really appreciate any documentation I can get.

    4. LGC*

      My personal opinion (and…okay, this is kind of critical of you, so apologies for that):

      “Will I seem defensive if I explain why the error is happening in my email responses?” The short answer is no, and in fact that’s what I think you should be doing.

      You want to keep your audience in mind – you say that it’s mostly managers. A lot of people just really need the context provided to them – and sometimes what might be apparent to you might not be apparent to them (even if you have documentation). So saying, “This happens if you shift the fields over – you need to drag the cracker types field back to the columns section” would provide valuable context. In fact, I think your current default response reads a bit more defensively – it seems to close off further communication on the subject. (Or, in other words, it looks a little like you’re saying “RTFM,” and not just because you are telling them to read the manual.)

      And some people will just need their hands held throughout the process! (Either because they’re scared of technology, they’re Very Important People who would rather have someone else fix their plebian problems, or something else.) I’d say do it once at most.

      If they keep making the same mistakes over and over again, you can probably default back to your current response. In that case, you’ve already explained it (and possibly multiple times). There’s no set numbers, but if they’ve asked – for example – the same question more than twice in the past week (or if you already answered it that day and they then ask you again that day), you’re probably justified in saying, “You need to do X. Please see the guide for more details.”

      “Also, will I seem insubordinate if I push back on making guides?” Short answer: probably.

      Long answer: I think that your first response should be to check in and see if there’s a way you can improve your guides. To pivot off of OtterB’s and Anax’s responses – you certainly can ask repeat questioners if you could make the guides more helpful, and you might want to re-evaluate how the guides are presented.

      You didn’t say how you wrote them, but they might not be answering the questions that you need answered. I’m going through this with my production team – they ask me repeatedly about the same quality issues. (Part of this is…my fault, yes. I think they think I’ll get mad at them, and I’m trying to work to fix that.) I realized that I documented what was wrong…but not what was right, so I’m working on documenting what’s acceptable for them. It’s a bit different, since those are my direct reports, and you’re working with internal customers who outrank you, but the principle still applies.

      Finally, as an aside – I’ll try to make things as hard as possible to mess up. (It’s a process!) I know I’ve broken things accidentally, and the fewer places you can make a mistake, the fewer mistakes will be made. If you can lock down common things that cause issues, that might help reduce the number of errors you get.

  183. .*

    Just had an interview with a job – they approached me! I’m somewhat happily employed, though we just went through layoffs. They’d be offering me a significant salary increase (25% increase) in a different field but the same general idea. The bad part though, is that it’s on the other side of town, and my current job is 10 minutes away from where I live, and not in an area that I’d like to move to. I guess I have a few concerns:
    1. the distance/traffic.
    2. the risk of a new job
    3. becoming a job hopper (This would be my 4th job in 7 years in the workforce, including a year of unemployment for a layoff).

    1. foolofgrace*

      Is it in a bad part of town? Would you be safe going and coming? How are the benefits? Others will know more than I do but I wouldn’t think job-hopping would be an issue at this point. It may come down to that 10-minute commute though, only you can answer how you feel about that.

    2. Lynne879*

      How long is the commute? For me personally, if the commute is so long that your salary increase is just going to go straight into car maintenance, I don’t know if it would be worth it.

      But also, like foolofgrace said, you should also take into consideration the benefits and how safety this other area of the city is.

  184. anonny*

    I’ve been at a very small company for the last several years, experience has been generally positive, though management is very helicopter-style and it’s wearing thin on me and I believe restricting the pace at which I can grow in my career. Recently a senior member of the company left to start her own company (same field, will be a likely competitor). After she left, I’m learning that they were fairly pleased to see her go, mainly because she didn’t fit the mold of someone they could control. She and I always got along very well and worked in sync and has a much more ‘loose’ style of management that I appreciate and she seems to value my work and expertise more than current company. That factored into my decision (along with significant raise) but I fear that the current company will not see this coming at all and see it as a betrayal from me. They’ve even trash talked her in front of me, assuming I felt the same way (clearly I do not). I don’t want to leave on bad terms and burn bridges but I think this could get ugly. The other complicating factor is that she signed a contract not to ‘poach’ any of the employees after she left but it states that if an employee approached her, it would be legal. I plan to make this clear when I announce my exit that I approached her but I can’t help but wonder if they will grill me on this, seeing if they can find out a way to block me from leaving and try to indicate that she violated the agreement. I want to give full two weeks notice but the thought of the whole situation makes me sick to my stomach and I’m not a confrontational person at all. I plan to schedule a meeting in person with management and tell them and present a letter with my end date and say I’m happy to help make this a smooth transition but I have one of two ideas of how this will go- they’ll grill me and try to say she violated the agreement and try to block me from leaving. Or two, they’ll freeze me out and say we don’t need you anymore, your last day will be today (and I’d be without pay for the two weeks). Obviously the best case scenario they’ll be disappointed and things will be awkward for two weeks but livable. Apologies this is so long… any advice on how to approach the situation and what to do if any of the worst case scenarios come up?

    1. Pennalynn Lott*

      Could the worst-case scenario actually just be that you start working at the new place two weeks sooner than you’d planned? If the senior member has hired you, I assume she’d be happy to have you start ASAP, especially with a new company.

      As for the poaching thing: If they get snippy just say that you’d be happy to put in writing that you approached the senior member. It helps if you document some of the details: “As soon as I heard she was starting her own company, I reached out to her via email / called her on X-day.” And tell the truth when they ask why you’d want to work for her: “I found that she and I have similar working styles and I appreciate how in-sync we are.”

      Lastly, I can’t imagine there’s any way for them to block you from leaving unless you’ve signed some kind of work contract.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        They can’t block someone from leaving, but they can sue the new employer for poaching, even if they didn’t poach. It’s time consuming, and expensive, and a pain in the neck, even if you are in the right. I know this from experience.

    2. TechWorker*

      I mean – probably best to address head on – but is there a reason you even need to tell them where you’re going to?

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        That simply delays things a bit, and can imply that you were being secretive because the new employer poached you. The letter from the lawyer will still show up.

    4. Nessun*

      If she’s a direct competitor they may just choose to ask you to go right away because of confidentiality. I see people leave fairly regularly, and they’re walked out if they’ve accepted work with a competitor. Unfortunately that may be the way it goes for you regardless of how maturely they treat you leaving.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I saw your concern about your last paycheck, and wanted to offer that Alison has suggested that questions about that can be answered by entering the search terms [your state name] “last paycheck” into the browser search window. This should retrieve sources regarding state laws that govern the issuance of a last paycheck. You might also add “pro rated” or “prorated” work to your search string as well, since I think (but I am not a lawyer!) most employers are duty-bound to pay you for whatever portion of the pay period you worked before leaving their employ.

      You might want to consider whether it would be worthwhile to give notice at or near the end of the first day of your notice period, rather than at the beginning of the day. That way, even if your management “gives” you (i.e., forces you) the opportunity to resign, your company would probably still be obligated to pay you for that single day you were in the office.

      Jerry Vandesic brings up a good point, in that your new employer might get a legal notice, regardless of how carefully you craft your resignation statement. So if you haven’t already had this conversation with your potential new employer, and BEFORE you put in your notice to your current employer, you might want to ask her: “Are you prepared to handle potential legal action when my old firm learns you’ve hired me?” Then you need to be emotionally prepared for the worst case outcome here, which is for her to say “No, I’m not prepared, and I’m withdrawing my offer of employment, b/c maintaining the health of my new business is more important to me than hiring your expertise.” It will hurt, but it’s better to find out the answer to this sooner rather than later. Best of luck. Please let us know what you decided to do.

  185. Kat*

    Does anyone have any advice for navigating the non-cleared job market in DC? My husband and I are new to the Beltway, and he has been stuck in this catch-22 where there seem to be tons of cleared jobs available, but no employers willing to sponsor anyone for a clearance. I understand its expensive to have someone unable to work on a cleared project while they have a clearance pending, but no one is born with a clearance so they have to get them somewhere! He went to a job fair yesterday where he had specifically checked beforehand that they would have non-clearwd jobs, and when he showed up they didn’t actually have any. We moved here for my residency so I know nothing about ‘normal’ jobs! Any advice?

    1. ReadyToGo*

      What is your husband’s area of expertise? I ask because I’m in the DMV area and I just got a clearance due to a new job: I’m working at a marketing agency with government clients and I needed the clearance before I could start work. But it sounds like your husband is looking specifically for government jobs (or at least government-serving jobs). Maybe I can provide some recommendations based on his skills / experience / expertise.

  186. Lost in the Woods*

    So I have a job interview!!!
    They asked me to bring a list of references, and as this is my first normal job (outside of my on-campus job and summer internship, where I applied through a sort of quasi-academic process, and my summer camp counsellor job, where I was part of the camper to counsellor pipeline), I’m not sure of the norms. I have three references for the major things on my resume. Is that enough? I figure the hiring manager doesn’t want to spend all day calling people, but I also presume that they ask for these because they’re useful for getting an outside perspective on the candidate, so how many references strike that balance? (I’m graduating in the spring, the job is entry-level)

    1. foolofgrace*

      Three is pretty common with reference requests, at least in my experience. Especially if they’re management and not peer. Peers are extra on top of the three, I’d say.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The only places I’ve seen who want more than 3 references are the places that require security clearances [then they want to know everyone you’ve spoken to since you were able to form words practically!]

      Four or five would be nice only because can you be for sure that those three good references are going to answer their phones/emails? That’s where I see things become a bit sticky at times.

  187. Rhymetime*

    When I was new to my organization as well as to being a new manager last year, I got good advice here. The person I manage has now done so well that he’s getting a promotion and will be my peer reporting to the same manager ourselves. I couldn’t be more thrilled, He and I talked about the changes this morning and I couldn’t be more thrilled. I’m proud of helping him succeed at this level and look forward to collaborating.

    My employee and I have been reviewing his new job description that our manager crafted with our input and giving feedback. I inquired about how this might change my own description, and we’re looking at that to make sure it all aligns well. No problem there.

    After the call with my about-to-be-former employee, our manager called to check in with him as well about what he thought about the new job description. By happenstance, I walked by our manager’s office during that phone conversation and since his office isn’t sound-proof, I heard him say something I’m fearing was a comment on my own job performance. It sounded like he was saying that my colleague with less experience than me isn’t there yet, but will ultimately be a better performer than I am. Ouch.

    Obviously I wasn’t supposed to hear that, and now I don’t know what to do. It was a snippet of a conversation and I of course could totally be missing the context, but I can’t unhear it. Any advice?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      I think the usual advice of talking to your boss applies and say “I heard X accidentally when . Obviously that wasn’t meant for me but I can’t unhear it and I wanted to take this opportunity to ask for feedback on what you think I could improve”

      1. Rhymetime*

        It turns out that I completely misheard the conversation and our manager said no such thing about me. On the contrary, he is pleased with my work as I had thought. Thanks for your reply!

    2. Approval is optional*

      I get the ‘ouch’. Of course you might have misunderstood/misheard, but if you didn’t maybe it is true (or at least your manager thinks it is)- but that’s ok, even if it’s an ouch to hear; it doesn’t mean you’re not a good performer, and it doesn’t mean that you won’t be a good performer in the future if/when someone is a stronger performer. Also keep in mind they might have been talking about one part of your role – eg colleague will one day be a better teapot sorter than you, but that is just one part of your role and you are a better performer when it comes to teapot design and packing – very few (if any) of us are the ‘best’ at everything we do.
      I wouldn’t ask my manager about it specifically: if you’re having regular reviews/getting regular feedback do the usual ‘are there any areas you think I can improve on’ questions at the next session. If you’re not getting regular feedback, ask your manager if you can set up a time – in view of a new job description a feedback session would be useful even if the comment hadn’t been heard.

      1. Rhymetime*

        Just refreshed the page and saw your comment. It turns out that I did in fact mishear the comment. It was surprising since I do get feedback from my manager pretty regularly and this one seemed like an outlier. Everything is fine, as I posted above. Thanks for your advice.

  188. cactus lady*

    Alison, are you planning to do a round up of the best of the “unprofessional things you’ve done that you are proud of and would do again”? There were some great ones in there!

  189. AnnoyedAF*

    A company where I devoted a lot of time to interviewing over a three month span (that included taking time off from work) tried to ghost me until I was persistent with them in getting any kind of answer back. Their message was basically oh yeah, we forgot about you, we’ve been interviewing other people this entire time, byyyeeeeeee.

    It just feels so cruel and disrespectful to be treated like that.

    1. Triplestep*

      Now that I have a new job, I’ve been going on glass door and leaving reviews in company’s “interview” sections, saying I was ghosted. I think I’ve done about five. You might think about doing the same … Companies should be called out for this.

      I am sorry this happened to you. It happens far too often.

  190. Queenie*

    Guys I am stressing, it has been a week. Our President is out for an extended LOA because she is sick which means my boss is taking over as the head honcho, and its gone to hell and a handbasket. My boss is the worst communicator, talks over top of you, complains, talks down to you, and bosses around every department, not just hers! Everyone is in an uproar, 3 staff are ready to quit and I just honestly want to lay down and take a nap. Had an interview this week, hard pass on that company OMG. They don’t let you leave the building for breaks… and if you do dictate how far you can go.

    But a question for you lovelies. I had an email from a company offering me a phone interview that came through on Monday, asking for my availability next week. I responded right away with a few different options, aaaaand nothing. Not an email back with confirmation, nothing. Should I still hold out hope? I really want this job!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Maybe send another email asking if they got your first one? After that give up though. One follow up is all you get.

      1. Queenie*

        Would that be too pushy? I know they are busy, it’s at an accounting firm and were in tax season..

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          But if they’re hiring during tax season, they need to hire ASAP as well most likely.

          Since they asked for time for next week and you haven’t heard back, today would be a good time to reach out and check in to see if you indeed will have a phone screen next week to make sure you’re still even available at those times after all!

          If they think you’re pushy over this, they are not where you want to be.

          1. Queenie*

            THANK YOU!!!! I just emailed and they responded right away with 10:30am Monday morning!!! This is literally the best news I have gotten in weeks. I know I am a long shot for this position but honestly I am so drained I need any glimmer of hope right now

  192. Email curiosity*

    IT/COMPUTER QUESTION RE: EMAIL STORAGE QUOTAS — My question is in regard to email storage space quotas, particularly in Outlook. My experience with this at various nonprofit and government orgs has been either at one end of the spectrum or the other — I’ve either had unlimited email storage in my work Outlook account (which was the default for all staff), or I’ve had extremely limited storage space with almost no ability for anyone other than C-suite to acquire additional space.
    In my current role, a gov’t management position that requires frequent exchange of very large files (up to 5 MB per file), up until recently I had the same 1GB email default allotment as most staff , and was spending at least a couple hrs a week clearing space in my account. My supervising director had to go to *his* director to get backing on doubling my email quota from 1 GB to 2 GB, which took an extended email thread involving at least 5 managers/directors (heretofore known as EmailGate 2019) before IT finally relented after unsuccessfully trying to convince my boss’s boss that I don’t need more space.
    My questions:
    1. What’s the deal here? Why do some employers allow unlimited email storage as a default, and some employers seemingly would rather have their managers spend hours per week on email storage space maintenance rather than increase their quota? I work for a large government org (my division alone has 1000+ employees), and also happen to know for a fact that we are using only a tiny fraction of our available server space, which may not be connected to email storage space but seems it should be?
    2. What is the general standard here — do others have a limited email storage quota, and if so how difficult is it to get more space approved if necessary for the job? I would love to hear other people’s experience and insights around this issue!

    1. ArtK*

      Storage == money. Some are willing to spend and others aren’t. Another reason for small e-mail quotas is to force people to delete stuff to avoid issues during legal troubles.

      For people in your situation, with large attachments, I’d talk to someone about another secure mechanism, even something as simple as an FTP server with more storage. Lots of e-mail systems limit the size of individual messages as well as the total size and a separate place can work much better.

      1. Anax*

        Agreed on this.

        Also, email is a notoriously terrible place to store files and messages for the long term, so a tight storage limit encourages people to use better locations. You’re in a special case, but specifically…

        – It’s easy for people to delete emails accidentally. It’s common enough to be a running IT joke that people store their important files in the Recycle Bin or the Deleted Items folder. (Seriously.) While recovery is often possible, it’s a pain.
        – It’s hard to keep people from emailing sensitive information to people who shouldn’t see it. Most other storage locations have better security.
        – Email is often accessible from the web on other computers, which can also be a security concern.
        – Emailing attachments means everyone has their own separate copy, and a new email must be sent any time there’s an update. You might easily have 40 copies taking up space, rather than just one.
        – Very large Outlook inboxes can become laggy or corrupted; the files live in a database; the size matters, there.

        1. Email curiosity*

          Interesting points! Honestly though, it seems the main issue was SPACE and nothing else. Like I was asking for a larger piece of the pie, and they answered, “No, we don’t you don’t need any more pie,” even though they seem to have a lot of extra pie hand. But when my boss and boss’s said, “Yes, EC does actually need more pie,” then IT gave me a second slice.
          Also, is 2 GB of storage really all that big of an email quota? Is 1Gb limit (our default) pretty standard, even for management? As I also mentioned down thread, I also do not use email as a storage system to the extent you might think. My email influx alone is up to 100-200 MB per week, and that’s AFTER I’ve deleted a ton of extraneous emails and attachments.

          1. PieInTheBlueSky*

            Perhaps they were concerned that if they made an exception for you, then many others would also ask for the same thing.

            1. Email curiosity*

              Yes, I agree, I’m sure that is a big part of it. However, they are already making the exception for a few people (granted, it’s very few), but the most important question is — Why is it such a problem in the first place? Why does matter if others ask for 1 more GB of storage space? Has anyone actually done an actual cost-benefit analysis before making the decision to be so stringent with email storage?
              I thought maybe I was missing something, but I’m starting to realize I’m not missing anything after all. It’s just people making irrational decisions. $40/month per employee is a not even a blip on our budget.

      2. Email curiosity*

        Thank you, ArtK and Anax for your input. For now I have the problem resolved, since I was granted an additional 1 GB, which gives me enough cushion to hold me over for a good while.
        Also, the delete stuff to avoid issues during legal troubles is not a factor here. As a gov’t agency, we operate very transparently across the board, and there are regulations in place we follow to a T regarding what we need to keep on file, what we need to provide on request, what is provided only upon subpoena, etc.
        For the Storage =Money thing, is it relevant that we have loads and loads of available server space? As in, we are only using 5% of our available space? Or is that a separate “bucket” of storage space in a way that didn’t occur to me?

    2. n*

      One of the things I’ve noticed, at least with small businesses (who probably don’t have the resources to implement Outlook correctly), is that the Outlook data file that stores all your information is easily corrupted at large sizes. That might be one reason in addition to storage costs.

      Outlook has tools to help you clean up your mailbox automatically to save you time, though. Go to file –> Mailbox Cleanup. You can also use search folders to help delete things by more advanced criteria. Go to Folder –> New Search Folder. The dialogue box will give you a list of suggested criteria, but you can also scroll down to the bottom and select Customize to see all your options.

      1. Anax*

        Not just small businesses; it’s universal, and it’s definitely part of the thought process.

      2. Email curiosity*

        Hi there – I appreciate the suggestion, but am actually very well-versed in all the Mailbox Cleanup tools/methods (trust me!), and I also do not use email as a storage system to the extent you might think. My email influx alone is up to 100-200 MB per week, and that’s AFTER I’ve deleted a ton of extraneous emails and attachments. I have some many reports and contracts in process at all times that I have to keep stuff on file for a certain amount of time — there is just no other efficient option.

    3. montecristo1985*

      Have you considered just set up additional data files on your computer? They save right to your computer, and you can make as many as you like (at least in my experience). I personally like to make a new one for every year, just so I don’t get too much stuff going on in one place. Then I keep just the current and the past year visible in Outlook itself, and I leave the rest sitting on my computer, where I can pull them into Outlook if I need to, but it is less cluttered.

      1. Email curiosity*

        I actually do archive a lot of files on my computer, but my ongoing email influx is much higher than average.

    4. Amber Rose*

      We are limited. But we’re switching to unlimited soon, precisely because it’s such a waste of time deleting things every time space is maxed out.

      It’s significantly more money though. Basically going from $10 per person per month to $50. We’re only doing it because one of our managers figured out how to cut spending elsewhere.

      1. Email curiosity*

        Interesting! Like you said, it’s SUCH a waste of time deleting things to clear space. Where I work, front line staff would have absolutely no need for unlimited email storage — their use of email is pretty limited and generally just text with very small attachments if any. But for all the supervisors and managers — it would be well worth another $40/month, because the agency is paying that amount or more (in some cases, MUCH more) in wages per WEEK to each of us, just for the time spent playing “the email storage-clearing” game.

    5. LCL*

      I don’t know enough about IT to be really helpful. I am a government employee, my mailbox has a capacity of 99GB, per the settings info. I’m currently using a bit less than 1GB.

    6. Email curiosity*

      CLARIFICATION – People have been making suggestions for how to clean up Outlook email, or suggesting that I save and store files elsewhere, etc. I appreciate the intent of those suggestions, but that really isn’t my question, and I know all of those methods already.
      I am only seeking information that 1) explains or clarifies the reasons for limited email storage quotas; or 2) what is your own experience with email quotas — do you have a limited quota at work, if so how much is it, and how flexible is it for management or others who work with large files? (i.e. is it like pulling teeth to get an increase?). Thanks all!

    7. Kathenus*

      We’ve got hard cap limits – 500MB – where I work, I’m pretty sure for everyone even the higher ups. I receive the “Your mailbox is almost full” emails regularly. I’m not one of those who keeps my emails down to a manageable level so I’m constantly playing the games to sift through/archive/delete large attachment. Most places I’ve worked have caps so I’m used to it. While it may not be universal I think Outlook limits are pretty common.

      1. Email curiosity*

        A 500GB limit would be insane for my job — even at 1GB I was spending hours playing the “sift through/archive/delete large attachment” game — as you so aptly put it. :) I guess it’s not just about management/higher-ups, but the type of work one does. I work for a large gov’t org and am the only person in my role. The bulk of my job is managing grants and contracts with dozens of funders and partners, which includes daily exchanges of multiple emails with large attachments, and I have to manage and compile so many pieces for each project that I do need to keep the emails easily accessible while something is in process, or I get completely lost. I do delete emails en masse once each process wraps up. (I would LOVE to use Google docs, but although none of the documents I exchange are not confidential, a lot of work we do at my agency is, so we are not allowed to use Google docs or similar.)

    8. A Non E. Mouse*

      Really late to this thread, but for Exchange (the server behind Outlook), I can tell you my pain points from an IT perspective.

      Space, sure. It’s actually not as cheap as you’d think for an in house environment, and it’s the shoestring budget usually given to IT, we did a hell of a dance keeping all systems up on duct tape, chewing gum and prayers.

      But the real gotcha was backups. Sweet Jesus the backups. You have to backup at several levels if you want the full ability to restore down to a per email level, and ZOMG when the databases got too big. We would flat sweat some backups, as they would barely finish before the next business day if people weren’t practicing good inbox hygiene. One particularly bad week we had to prioritize databases each night and just hope that there was no data loss event between good backups of each, because to truly fix it we’d have to take the stupid server down and that had to wait for Saturday.

      We ultimately moved away from Exchange/Outlook on premise to a cloud based non-Microsoft solution and my stress level decreased immediately, mostly because I am no longer having to literally sit at someone’s desk and help them archive locally but also because cloud backup is the freakin’ bomb.

      Summary: Exchange 2010 and it’s evil older brother 2003 can forever kiss my behind.

      1. Email curiosity*

        Interesting – thanks for weighing in! I also noticed that you mentioned Exchange 2010, which is what we’re using (well, we use MS Office 2010, so I assume our Exchange must also be 2010). I mean, I have a nicer iPhone for work than I have for my personal use, but we are still using MS Office 2010. The crazy thing is that we lag behind all our peers, as we are the only division under our larger umbrella organization who has not moved on to Office 2013, and if we want to attend internal trainings on using Excel, Word, etc. (which btw are excellent trainings because the instructor they contract with is stellar), they are all for 2013 or 2016, not for 2010.
        If you check back and see this, I’d be interested to hear more about back-ups. We have a pretty big IT/help desk team, and I didn’t realize that backup is so labor-intensive or overwhelming. What makes email backup so much more laborious or unwieldy than backup for the normal files and computer drives? Genuinely curious! Oh, and you said you would “flat sweat” some backups — what does “flat sweat” mean? Thanks much!

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          well, we use MS Office 2010, so I assume our Exchange must also be 2010

          That does not necessarily follow – they can be different versions.

          What makes email backup so much more laborious or unwieldy than backup for the normal files and computer drives?

          Microsoft.

          Only kind of joking. For us, it was the varying levels of backups you have to do coupled with the short time span we had to do them each evening, plus an aging installation. With Exchange you have to back up several different ways to restore in different manners (short version: entire database versus mailbox), and each was a separate job. We would have to prioritize which databases were always backed up to the mailbox level (meaning: executives), versus waiting until the weekend to do another full.

          File servers are a piece of cake to back up. I can’t even remember the last time we had to tinker with a file server backup, they just kind of do their own thing, on a schedule, every night.

          what does “flat sweat” mean

          “Verbal” tick – just meant we were anxious the entire time. I watched some finish 6:30am, right before our window closed for opening of business.

          we are the only division under our larger umbrella organization who has not moved on to Office 2013,

          Office 365 is the current offering actually, so even 2016 is coming up on the end of regular support (2020) with extended support ending 2025.

          We bailed Office entirely for a different productivity suite that has it’s own quirks, but is a heck of a lot cheaper and the administration is a dream compared to Exchange/Office/Shared Network Drives.

          We still have Office installed for anyone who requests it, but the highest level we’ve purchased is 2016 and we’ve dropped Assurance.

  193. LochNess85*

    There have been rumors of restructuring in my current department, things like a position being eliminated (attrition) and a different position being created, work being redistributed between different people. Things of that nature, very vague, no real explanation of what’s happening or about to happen. This is perfectly normal at my company, we are the worst with information. But it tends to make me a bit paranoid because I have no idea what’s going on.

    However, what’s really concerned me is that my boss just asked me yesterday if I am interested in his position. I told him I didn’t know, because managing people isn’t really something I enjoy doing…I’d rather be doing the work. I was thinking this was just random chat, but with everything going on, now I don’t know. The thing is, I WOULD rather do the work and not have to manage people, but I am sort of interested for a couple of reasons, the biggest one being that in the two years I’ve worked here, my department doesn’t have a good track record of hiring people, we’ve had some real doozies (substance abuse, complete incompetence, theft, etc).

    So the thing is, if this job comes available, I definitely do want an opportunity to be considered, and for me to consider it myself. I’m not sure how to go about telling my boss this…I love him as a boss, so I’m not trying to get rid of him, but I don’t want them ruling me out if this does indeed become something. Should I just pop into his office and tell him this? (This would be normal, we chat all the time, it wouldn’t have to be a big deal like a performance review or something). I know they love my work and I would probably be a shoe-in if they thought I wanted the job, but IDK how to frame this in the best way to say that I am definitely interested and would want to be considered, but also that I can’t guarantee I would take the position? Maybe I just leave that part off? Help!

    1. LQ*

      I’d definitely drop in. “Hey the thing you said to me yesterday I’ve been thinking more about and …” I think you you can mention, “my hesitation comes from really liking to do the work, but if I can have the opportunity to make a real impact I think I’d consider it”. Or whatever comes to you. It can be a really normal chat about the pros and cons of it.

  194. Kat Maps*

    I was just approved to attend a conference later this month. I decided to check out the itinerary and during the first hour of each of the 3 days there would be this networking “game” where upon signing in, everyone is given the name of another random person, who you then have to find, introduce yourself to, and check-in with at various points throughout the day. You get assigned a new person each day.
    This sounds completely ridiculous to me. Is this normal, or has anyone else ever had to do something similar?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I haven’t heard of that or done it, but I actually kind of like it! If a conference is intended for networking, then this strikes me as a really nice way to facilitate that. I think too often shyness overcomes most of us and we stick to people we already know when we would absolutely benefit from meeting people seemingly at random. I realize it could get really annoying if the two people don’t mesh well.

      1. Kat Maps*

        You’re right. I was initially turned off by the name they gave this networking portion (which I won’t mention) but you’ve given me perspective. This sounds more effective for networking than the typical icebreakers.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      Unless the entire purpose of the conference is networking, I’d just arrive an hour late every day.

    3. Kathenus*

      Every conference I’ve attended the networking tends to be longer-lasting than any presentations/content relevance. I don’t know about the checking in with them throughout the day part, but I think activities that get you meeting new people can be beneficial. It can be tempting at a conference to hang out mostly with people you know, but getting to know others can be really important so overall I think it sounds like a good thing.

    4. Emi*

      I’d be so tempted to turn this into Hide’n’Seek and see how long I could avoid being found by the person assigned to me.

  195. Rikki Tikki Tarantula*

    I’m a full-time freelancer who works from home. Almost all of my clients I interact with via email, but there is one local client (a law firm) that is local. I’ve met some of the firm’s members when I was invited there for lunch to meet people and put faces to names. I like them, and they seem to like me.

    Would it be unprofessional if every so often I dropped by the firm with some home-baked goods ( just once every month or two bring by some cinnamon-sugar buttermilk muffins or some cannoli)? Partly I see it as a nice thing to do for one of my best clients, and partly it’s an outlet as I don’t have any other recipients for baked goods (spouse is on disability so he can’t take them in to his job).

    1. pjm*

      I think that would be very nice of you and I’m sure it will be very much appreciated. In my office, we are always so happy when a client or vendor drops off something yummy for us. I think once every few months or so is plenty. If you do it on a schedule, like 1x/month, then it becomes something expected, not a special treat.

    3. Electric Sheep*

      I would not do it – it’s a lovely guesture but really only works if you were coworkers, not for clients. Especially given that you would have to drop in to do it.

  196. Grand Mouse*

    This might be too late for anyone to see, but I was hoping to get some advice on an incident yesterday. I ended up going to the ER for a flareup of an existing medical condition. My employer is already aware of the condition. Ok I’ll just say it, it’s epilepsy. It’s fine most of the time, but when I have a seizure it can get pretty serious. At the least, disruptive.

    I’m wondering what information is ok for me to share with my boss and what he can ask of me? Part of me wants to tell him the result of the ER visit and my followup plans to reassure him and also show I’m taking steps to get this under control again.

    Otoh, I feel like it might be overreaching and I’m not sure what information he can ask for and if it puts him in a bad spot to share this. I was raised to be very conscientious so anything that impacts my work ability I feel like I need to explain and reassure my boss that work comes first.

    Thanks for any help!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Share what you feel comfortable sharing with him! This is your information to either keep vague or give details [barring details that may make someone uncomfortable, like I wouldn’t include if you peed yourself a little or something, you know?] But telling him that the diagnosis shows everything is under control now or they had to tweak your meds, etc. That’s up to you!

      He’s not supposed to ask you anything honestly, aside from “Are you feeling better? Do you need any accommodations, is there a recovery period we should be aware of?” kind of stuff. Only stuff that effects your work and not your actual health itself. Granted many will ask more details, it’s not illegal but opens up a box if you were to say be let go shortly after you told him that you were going to need extended medical leave or something like that. Less information the better to ask for, since it can become an issue if they think they blurred into discrimination claims if things go sideways and they need to let you go for something in the future.

    2. Approval is optional*

      I’m in the ‘tell employers as little personal information as necessary’ camp, so I’d consider the following factors:
      *how long have you worked there (ie have you established a reputation there as someone who puts work first)
      *is this the first time you’ve been absent because of your epilepsy (ie will he be wondering how often you might be absent)
      *was the flare-up a seizure or something else, and did it occur at work (this shouldn’t matter but in my experience people are disturbed by observing seizures and extra reassurance might be in order – your call totally though)
      I’m sure there are other factors that you and/or others can come up with.
      You asked what it was ‘ok’ to share – I’d say there is a tmi level at work about nitty gritty details of any condition (eg somewhere between ‘I have a digestive disorder’ and ‘when I poop it’s green and loose’!), but anything you are comfortable with under that level is fine.
      In terms of what he can ask for, I’m guessing your laws/regs about privacy are different from where I live, so I’m not sure what he *can* ask, but if you were my employee all I’d need to know was that you were ok post-ER visit, and if you needed anything from me, so start from there and add information based on your knowledge of your manager and your thoughts on the factors maybe.

    3. Psyche*

      I have epilepsy too. Personally, I have found it easier to proactively tell my boss just in case something happens. I also tell anyone who witnesses one of my seizures. It seems to help them relax and move on to know that it is a chronic condition and I know what to do.

      If you feel comfortable telling your boss, it should be enough to say that you have epilepsy and your doctor is adjusting your treatment to keep it under control. You don’t need to share details of your ER visit or your treatment plan. If you don’t feel comfortable sharing, you don’t have to. You can be vague and use your working of “flare up of an existing medical condition.”

      Also, work should not come first! Your health comes first.

    4. LGC*

      So, if I remember correctly, he can ask when you’re expected back to work, and – yeah – if you need any accommodations. (And if you’re cleared to come back, if that is part of your attendance policy.)

      That doesn’t stop you from sharing, though! I’d share whatever you’d normally share with a coworker you weren’t friends with. Spare the bodily functions, but you can talk about going to the hospital.

      Also, to be honest…maybe I’m reading too much into this, but you saying that you want to reassure him that you’re getting this under control, and that your seizures are “disruptive” sounds like you think your epilepsy is a problem for him. And…that’s rough. You shouldn’t feel bad for having epilepsy – it doesn’t make you a bad employee because your brain sometimes dramatically misfires. (And it sounds like you generally do have it well treated, which is the most anyone can or should ask for.)

    5. Lilysparrow*

      You said he already knows about the epilepsy. Did the seizure happen at work? Or was it after work and he just knows you were out today?

      I would think the main thing would be to let him know you’re okay, becaus if he’s a halfway decent person he’s going to worry about you going to the ER!

      Besides that, just let him know if there’s a prognosis that will affect your work time/productivity – like if you will need extra follow up appointments for a certain period of time.

      A friend of mine had some short-term memory issues from one of her seizure meds, so that might be the kind of thing you’d need accommodation for, or need to change up your work process to help with.

      A friend’s adult child has epilepsy and we are in a car-dependent area. When he has a seizure, he can’t drive for at least six months, and if he has another one in that time the clock resets. He went through a bad patch for a while, and it was a real hassle relying on backup transportation.

      So if there will be logistical issues like that, you should mention it as a temporary thing to work around.

  197. CoffeeOnMyMind*

    Grandboss set up a meeting with my team as a group to give feedback about our boss. Is this normal to do in a group? I feel uncomfortable giving negative feedback about my boss in front of my coworkers. Advice?

    1. Approval is optional*

      Urgh. Not an ideal way to do it in my opinion, as it’s unlikely to get honest feedback (which may be why they’re doing it this way of course).
      As to advice, that would depend on:
      *Why the meeting was called – Is it just part of the normal performance review process, because of complaints about your manager, because your manager is in line for promotion etc?
      * How negative your feedback would be if you were honest
      * If you trust your Grandboss to not disclose to your manager who said what
      * If your manager would retaliate, and if she did, if Grandboss would ‘protect’ you
      * How many are in your team, and if you trust them.

  199. RabbitGal*

    I’m so exhausted trying to find a new job while working a toxic job and being disabled. I almost feel burned out searching for something that fits my needs. Yesterday I was halfway through applying for a remote call center job for a nonprofit when the name of the nonprofit group finally popped up in the application. It turned out to be a really famous one that I morally couldn’t work for, at all.
    I’ve tried hard to improve my current job. I’ve specifically asked my supervisor for feedback and updates. She doesn’t give much information in person and never responds to emails when I ask her anything… Unless it’s a mass email to the whole team threatening to write everyone up because of talk time. She answers calls maybe 10% of the time. I work remotely, so I can’t do an impromptu meeting in person. I have one to go over stats next week. She always tells me during those that I can touch base with her in between meetings, but that’s just not true.
    Things have to get better, but I’m frustrated at both ends after job hunting for a year while surviving my current job, and dealing with chronic health problems.

    1. Bismuth*

      Job hunting is a job in itself, and a crazy stressful one. Take the occasional break.

      I”d be tempted to cheerily ask her, when she says you can touch base, “Great! Let’s set up a meeting for X. And we should be discussing Y regularly — it’ll go much better that way!”

    2. Grand Mouse*

      Hi, I don’t know if this could help you but my state has an organization to help get disabled into jobs. It’s called DVR and part of DSHS. If your state has something similar, it can be such a big help.

      I relate to all of what you’re saying though. I am also disabled and left because of a boss I could never get ahold of. I think I saw her twice in the entire 3 years I worked.

      Maybe if not DVR then some sort of social worker/counseling services? That can help you find what you want, give you resources, and help you slog through this. Best of luck!

      1. RabbitGal*

        I’ve never heard of that. I’ll definitely see if my state has DVR.
        Thank you for the encouragement. I honestly don’t remember seeing job resources for disabled people during my search.

  200. Amethyst*

    Related to my last job: I had a very difficult coworker who honestly should’ve been let go long before I started working there due to a repeated issue. (She has to hoard information & gives it out related to your own job/client on a need to know basis, doesn’t communicate information when you need to know, acts as though she is a manager–she’s not, teaches her backups up to a certain point then says, “You know the rest, so you’re done.” then throws you under the bus when you do a major f*&^up when she goes on vacation, & is generally so antagonistic that half the staff loathe her & the other half loves her. There’s no in between. I fell into the former group.)

    This girl targeted me after I called her out on her behavior via email about 6 months into starting this job. I got in trouble with our boss, but what I wrote absolutely needed to be said, & she also received a reprimand for her own behavior leading up to my email.

    Our jobs are very similar in job description, but we handled different clients with very little overlap. She’s responsible for picking up the mail & sorting it, bringing it to the respective person. Toward the end of my time there, she began claiming “busy” & dumped the mail bin in various ways. Her favorite was to do a drive by dumping, in which she’d walk like she’s on a mission past my desk, throw the mail bin on the floor, saying she “doesn’t have time to sort through the mail” & leave, all of this happening within 5 seconds & giving me absolutely no chance of responding. A handful of times I shoved her duty back onto her because I was swamped (usually because my desk was a disaster area after returning from vacation or a day off due to PTO or sick leave). But this behavior of hers drove. me. nuts. Sometimes she’d engage someone else to do the dirty work & when I’d tell this coworker to give it back to “Brenda”, they’d say, “Brenda told me to give this to you.” This would be when I’d roll my eyes, sigh aggravatedly since it’s not their fault, & get mad that she’s manipulating others to do this.

    Anyway, IF I wind up with another Brenda at my next job, how should I have handled this? Should I send an email to her CCing our boss, saying something like, “I understand you are busy. I am, too. I will make an exception today & sort the mail for you, but moving forward you need to ask first before dumping your work at my desk.”?

    Also, Brenda is the type of person to demand her backup to answer questions related to her job while she was gone, but when I came back from my PTO, she’d refer all questions back to me, & I’d have to take a look at whatever happened while I was gone & cobble together a response based on what I found. (Honestly, I could keep writing pages on her behavior… She’s a witch.)

    Thoughts on how to handle someone like Brenda in the future would be absolutely appreciated.

    1. Amethyst*

      Possibly relevant information: I have PTSD due to a history of physical, emotional, & verbal abuse by my parents & grandparents. I have been in therapy to unpack all the related issues due to this abuse, & have an extremely difficult time asserting myself due to this. (I tend to stuff it down until I explode because that’s how it was in my toxic family environment.) Good news is I’m slowly learning how to assert myself in small ways, which is a HUGE step for me, but situations like the above send me into my freeze response, & it’s not until much later that I think of the appropriate thing to say/do. Having a script to refer to for these types of situations would help me immensely.

      1. Bismuth*

        There aren’t as many Brendas out there as you think. One may not come up. I’d concentrate on getting to recognize toxic environments and how to deal with them in general — if you grow up in one, you may feel a level of comfort and respond to it on some level. You haven’t said much about where her boss is in all this, and that’s who should be dealing with her behavior.

        In general, though, stay calm and stick to your boundaries, and go through managers when necessary — remember the “it’s impacting my work in X ways, how can we solve this?” not “Brenda is a pill and I’m going to start throwing newts at her”.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          You could frame the mail issue with your manager as clarification—recently Brenda’s been asking me to sort the mail, wanted to clarify whether this had shifted from her to me, it’ll take me x amount of time which means I would have to prioritize it over doing y or z, how would you want me to handle that?

  201. TiredOfTeaParties*

    Not sure if anyone reads this far.
    On Monday I have my six month evaluation at a very small non profit. I’m working for an executive director that has no place for discussion or collaboration. I still do not know what I do not know, and I struggle because there is a lot happening that i haven’t been privy to, even though it’s my role.
    Today she sent me multiple emails with questions from her office beside mine rather than speak to me, yet she asked our admin multiple questions by going to her desk and talking.
    I’m dreading the evaluation – i’m being very critical of myself but there are limits to what I can do because of her work style. I have made my mistakes, but with little support, I’ve done the best I can.
    At one point in October she told me that this is how she works and if it’s not a good fit, she wants me to leave on friendly terms and not leave angry.
    Nice, huh?
    I am mentally committed to stay until our big tea party in three weeks. But am >< this close to saying screw it.
    Words of wisdom, encouragement?

    1. VM*

      That sounds tough. It does sound like you are doing the best you can with what you are given and that’s really all you can do without leaving. Remember, if you get what you consider to be a poor evaluation, that’s also a reflection of her. It doesn’t mean that you are a bad worker, just a poorly supported one. Hang in there.

      1. TiredOfTeaParties*

        Thank you. That’s what my husband has said, and others as well. It just feels yucky.
        I know I have stuff to learn, and there are things I need to improve but I am truly doing my best as I fight to stay engaged.

  202. VM*

    I know it’s a little late in the day but some weird stuff went down today and had a crazy work day with a crazy work story.

    Earlier this week, I went to a free training outside my company. It was open to anyone and I was expecting two of my coworkers to attend as well. I live close to the training site to I drove myself to the training from home while I expected my other coworkers to drive from the office. These two coworkers have a different role than I do (I’m a teapot designer and they are teapot quality control officers) but we have the same supervisor.

    About an hour into the training, I realized that the two other people hadn’t showed up yet, so I emailed my boss to check if they made it in to work, thinking they may have decided not to attend the training at all or called in sick. My boss told me one of the officers decided to not attend the training due to workload but the other officer had left to go to the training! It was a small training so I could see everyone who attended and he never showed up.

    It was a half day class, so I returned to my office and checked back in with my boss. I told them the officer never showed up. My boss nodded and just said they would see what the officer said when they returned to the office and what their timesheet showed.

    Today was the day our timesheets were due and I guess the officer indicated 8 hours of regular work on the day the training they didn’t attend took place! My boss called them up (they were out in the field) and directly asked about the training. The officer just got quiet for a few seconds, then told my boss that they got a call from their spouse on the way that they needed to take care of a sick family member so they never made it to the training. Then they forgot that they did that and accidentally put a full day of work instead of sick leave! WTF! That’s the biggest whopper I’ve ever heard!

    I don’t trust this coworker at all now. We don’t work at a place that’s really strict about “putting in your 8 hour days”. We chit chat, we sometimes have breaks and lunches run long, but we get the job done and stay a little extra as needed. But trying to skim almost an entire shift? That’s pretty messed up.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Are you suggesting VM was in the wrong for letting the boss know that a coworker didn’t make it to an off site training if it didn’t directly affect VM’s work? It’s not tattling since they had no way of knowing that the coworker would try to charge the time fraudulently, and it might have come out any number of ways anyway if/when the boss followed up with each of them.

        Time card fraud gets you fired at my company.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          Yes, of course it was normal to mention it, particularly as OP called in looking for the co-worker.

          But moving forward, it’s not productive to dwell on it. The Powers That Be are aware. They may accept his explanation or they may not.

          OP has no personal stake in the way management chooses to handle it at this point.

  203. Persephone Mulberry*

    I didn’t hear back from the company I interviewed with last week. Fortunately I stayed busy enough at my current job that I didn’t dwell too much. Hoping for good news to report next week instead.

  204. AliceBD*

    Super late here but just need to vent about random phone call phone screenings! I had 1.5 this evening! Background: I was laid off with my last day two weeks ago, so I’ve applied for a lot of jobs.

    At 4:15pm this afternoon (Friday) I got a phone call while I was driving. My car doesn’t show names just numbers, but I thought it was the optician’s office — I had left them a little bit before and there’s a thing I’m expecting them to call me about at some point. Or, if it was someone scheduling something, my schedule is totally free so I am comfortable saying “yes” to anything. It was instead someone from one of the places I applied last week wanting to do a phone screening. I pulled into a convenience store parking lot and took it, taking notes on the back of a receipt in my bag. I didn’t remember a ton of details about this company because I have applied for over a dozen companies in two weeks, all for similar roles, so they blur together. I do think I passed the phone screening though!

    To get some more funds while I look for a full-time job (I already have a regular side gig) I applied to be a tutor for a tutoring platform that connects you with clients, lets you do invoicing through them, etc. I know they take a cut but I’m going for convenience and the ability to not feel as guilty when I stop. An hour after that first call, when I had gotten home, someone from the tutoring company called me to go over final stuff. Hopefully this means I can finally start getting tutoring opportunities through them! I enjoy tutoring and the money will be very helpful right now!

  205. Argh!*

    Late to the party but here goes…

    I started seeing a therapist about work issues & my job search. I was making some progress, and then… my therapist ghosted me, sort of. The day before my appointment, his office called me to say he was now working in a different practice.

    So… while I was talking about interviews & applications, he was also interviewing and applying somewhere else. I’m not sure how I feel about that. So I made an appointment with the new person in the office instead of following him to his new place.

    I’d say this is the weirdest thing that’s ever happened to me, but since moving to the part of the country where I live, I’ve had a whole series of weird and unfortunate events.

    1. Grand Mouse*

      The day before? That’s really crappy. That’s bad planning and management on his side or the office.

      I had to switch therapists a number of times because the ones I saw were only there for a year. An intern I think? Anyway it is never easy and I wish you luck!

    2. Approval is optional*

      If it is of any ‘comfort’, his partnership agreement/ employment contract with his partners /employer probably precluded his telling his patients he was leaving the practice and where he was going. When my therapist bought out her partnership share and went into sole practice, I had to track her down myself (not difficult -my GP told me where she had gone, and her new business came up in a google search), and ask the ‘old’ practice to send on my records. She wasn’t allowed to say anything to her patients about leaving, or, obviously, how to move with her – but when I told my GP about it, he told me what I needed to do.

      1. Argh!*

        Ugh. That is also a sucky option. It means the practice is more worried about keeping my business than about the welfare of clients!

  206. Laura H.*

    So I think I have a job!! (Saying think but it’s kinda all but official (no offer yet).) It’s a new local sweets store in my town, and they’re mostly hiring teenagers and people with special needs (I fall into the latter category).

    They gushed about my resume (and that I sent one at all, but I’ve got an advantage compared to most of their pool in that I’m college educated and have worked before.) and while it’s not where I want to be forever/ solely doing, it feels so good to be on the verge of employment again. And the venture is such an ambitious effort and a little altruistic, but the self-esteem potential for these differently abled people (again myself included, even with the outlying factors) can’t be put into words!!!

    Regardless of what comes of it on my end, I REALLY hope this business succeeds!

    1. Buu*

      Wow congratulations. I think on this site we read so much about toxic and unethical workplaces it’s generally nice to hear about someone heading on to something good.

    2. Wrench Turner*

      You say it’s not what you want to be doing forever but you never know! You might find yourself quite happy there, and find yourself growing in the business and helping the business itself grow with you. I hope this works out.

  207. anon-help*

    Do companies still screen candidates by cold calling past employers? What is the current process for most companies? My ex-employer and I did not end things on good note (they were in the wrong more than I was) and I worry they will hurt my chances of getting employed elsewhere. Thanks in advance!

  208. Marky Mark Aurelius*

    So I have a very touchy subject I want to bring up in this week’s open thread. I suspect my coworker is making bad faith complaints about me to try and get me in trouble.

    That’s a big statement, so let me explain. He joined last month, and he’s been rude and dismissive to everyone else here pretty much every day. He goes on his phone during all our meetings, and he’s even taken out his phone, made a call, and walked out of the office, all without saying a word, while people are talking to him. But at the same time, he’s also incredibly demanding of everyone else’s time. When he needs something from you, he’ll SHOUT across the office. If you have the nerve to say “Steve, I need a few minutes,” over Slack or something, he’ll shout “I NEED HELP NOW.” When you actually help him, he treats you like a servant, walking off, taking phone calls, or going on facebook on his phone (it’s also open on his work PC).

    Last week, during our status meeting, he was on his phone and laughing at something on the phone while I was talking. I stopped for a bit, just looked at him until he put the phone down, and continued without saying anything once he did. The whole incident was about 20 seconds. After our status meeting, he left the office and I didn’t see him at all for the rest of the day.

    A little while later that day, my boss took me aside to deliver a reminder that I need to be respectful of everyone in the office, and make sure not to be overly critical. He said that he thinks that I’m doing OK, but he and HR have received complaints that I am disrespectful and overly critical, and he had been asked to deliver the message.

    We’ve had that same meeting two more times. Every time, it pans out the same way: my boss says he thinks I’m doing well, but he’s received complaints that I behave disrespectfully toward other people and he’s been asked to deliver them. Since that first incident, I have avoided being alone with the new coworker, and forwarded all email and Slack exchanges with him to my boss, for the sake of transparency and avoiding any “he said, she said” arguments. But I still get these complaints.

    It’s very hard for me to read this. My boss reiterates that he’s happy with my work every time we’ve had one of these meetings. And aside from the new guy, no one seems to be treating me any differently in the office. But I’ve been the target of these complaints multiple times.

    I get the vibe that the new guy has a grudge against me for effectively “calling him out” about the phone use, and is trying to build up some sort of paper trail against me in the hopes that I get fired. While I haven’t received any formal written warnings from either my boss or HR, but I’ve had this same conversation with my boss three times so far, so I can’t really tell.

    So my question is: what do I do to defend myself?

    1. WellRed*

      Absent any other context for the complaints (please think really really hard if there is anything else you might not be aware of instead of focusing on the new guy) having the same complaint 3x in such a short period of time is totally over the top. Are you sure it’s not something to do with your boss abd he is just using the generic, vague “people?” At any rate, time to ask for a quick meeting, tell hom you take this very seriously and ask for specific examples of the behavior. You didn’t really call the new guy out and he doesn’t sound like the type to bother with a petty complaint. If there’s something bigger happening, that’s a whole nother ballgame.

      1. Marky Mark Aurelius*

        Belated reply, but I can say with a high degree of certainty that this is all the new guy. Reason being is that we had my performance review just a week before this, and my boss said that X, Y, and Z other people (not the new guy) have all said they like working with me and that I have a positive attitude. He’s condescended towards me in front of the rest of the office too, because I went to state college and live in a poorer area of town, while he went to a very prestigious private university and lives in the upscale part of the city. I’ve also had this same issue with the new person before: he takes out his phone while I’m talking to him, or while I’m speaking in a meeting. When he does this I say something like “is everything alright?” or “hey, you’ll probably need to know this.” Based on the rest of his behavior around me since the “leaving for the day” incident, I have a sneaking suspicion that he’s upset with me for pointing out his phone usage during meetings and is trying to build a case portraying me as a bully. Could he trying to build up a written paper trail of complaints about me to get me written up/fired?

        I’ll speak to my boss for sure, though. I was a little worried to push it because I know there’s obviously good reasons for him to not relay a specific complaint from a specific person. But what he’s said is so open ended that I can’t come up with any good way to change my behavior based on it.

  209. Coughy McCougherson*

    I have a phone screening tomorrow for a position I REALLY want, but my cough is still unpredictable. It is generally triggered by talking and there isn’t any suppressant that works on this kind of cough. I plan on explaining up front/apologizing in advance about my cough, but I’m so scared that this will disqualify me because in the job description it talks about leading training and workshops and whatnot and I imagine they don’t want a cougher doing that. It’s getting better, it’s just that the healing process for this takes time, too much time for me to wait to apply for jobs until I’m better (I’ve been dealing with this coughing issue since JULY and just got it diagnosed in January).

    Please reassure me that I can do this and rock the phone screening even if I cough, please?

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