open thread – March 19-20, 2021

by Alison Green on March 19, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. New Mom*

    For Americans on here who spend part-time or full-time in another country but work for an American company (either contract or FT), what advice would you give for others wanting to do the same?

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Hi! American here, just switching over to a German company after freelancing for an American one from here in Germany.

      First, be sure of your visa requirements! Some countries like Croatia are super awesome about their visa statuses for remote workers.

      Others like Germany, for example, are more picky. You can’t just come on a tourist visa and keep staying long term working from the U.S. You will need to provide evidence of income for residency and visa. They might have some visa specific to remote workers where you plan to go though. I’m here on a marriage visa so it doesn’t quite apply to me, but as I’m switching to a German company, the government can audit my home office to here per my contract, especially if I’m deducting anything on my German taxes.

      I can’t emphasize enough that you need to figure out tax obligations ahead of time. You could be liable in both countries or just one. Does your company have an office in that country or are you remote working? You may need to notify your company so they don’t get in trouble (Alison has discussed business nexus before, it’s useful to google). When paying your taxes stateside, you’ll need to declare any foreign accounts and income, and all banks abroad will ask for your US social security number as they are obligated to turn over any financial records to the US of it’s citizens if asked.

      I don’t know the dual tax thresholds off the top of my head though, so you might want to check that.

      Which country will you be working from? (I’ve worked from several and am happy to answer any questions!) Happy travels!

      1. Vie En Rose*

        I’m not the OP but have you ever worked in France? Pre-Covid I was wondering what it would take to relocate to Paris (where I have family) while freelancing remotely for what I assume would be US-based jobs (I’m a graphic designer). I couldn’t even figure out where to start with this. Sorry OP I hope this isn’t a derail of your question.

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          Steps:
          1. Check out French visa requirements.
          1a. Also, the cost of living in Paris is astronomical compared to most places in the US.
          I imagine for a visa you would have to provide proof of a steady income (unless you live with your family there?), so I don’t know how the freelancing thing would fit in, unless they only require proof of a minimum bank account balance as they do in some countries. Or, unless your family could sponsor you.
          2. Check other visa requirements, many require learning the language so be willing to learn is key. :) Best of luck!

        3. Freeatlast*

          Living in France may sound like a dream, but you should note that in a recent poll, only 36% of the French polled would get the COVID vaccine if it was safe and free.

        1. Anecdatally*

          Are you thinking something more like remote work (and you’re moving primarily because you want to live in country X), or something more like “I work for a US company at their Istanbul office, because that’s where my job is”?

          1. New Mom*

            Remote work, either for a few weeks/months at a time OR remote full-time for an extended period of time.

        2. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          The most recent thing I’ve found from the UK government (because I’ve not had to get a visa for the UK since before Brexit) is the RDR3 Statutory Residence Test (just google it and click the link from the gov. uk site) which can help you determine the length of time you can work for an American company just paying American taxes. Hope this helps!

    2. Engineer Woman*

      I would look not solely at “wanting to work in another country” but are you able to? Are you looking to work for an American company in another country as a local employee or as an expat? If the former: can you legally work in that country? Are you already a resident of that country or would you require a work-visa?

      I would also suggest you take a hard look, as others have said, at the tax situation. The first $X (adjusts yearly) of foreign income can be exempt from US taxes but amount over that threshold are subject to US taxes. Is it worth it to work in net pay to work there (taking into account the other costs of living)?

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Yup! This is the business nexus situation. Even as a freelancer, you need to check with an accountant used to working with ex-pats :)

    3. Purple Penguin*

      My biggest advice is triple check that your “right to remain”/visas and taxes are good to go. Ditto with retirement, investments, health insurance and FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act – if you’re a US citizen) obligations.

      Anther bit of advice is to ignore anyone who tells you to “just go” and work it out from there. There’s sometimes a cultural imagination that one can “just” move to another country to work (I’m thinking Emily in Paris or Under the Tuscan Sun as examples) but the reality is often far more complicated, even for those with dual nationality or whose company sponsors them to be in another country. I know of a few Americans and Australians who have been barred from re-entering a country due to overstaying tourist or other visas or who were found to be working when they didn’t have the right to be doing so.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Here to second this advice. Purple Penguin is spot on. Many Americans think moving abroad is like moving states, and you can just move and figure it out. Countries DO keep lists of who abides by visa regulations, and they DO check, from the moment you land. You have to explain why you’re there, and if you get to Charles de Gaulle and say, “Oh I’m here to work remotely”, they will ask for the corresponding visa. Living and working abroad CAN be done, but do all your homework first.

        Schengen zone countries (Germany, for example), are pretty generous with their 90 day tourist visas, but if you’re caught trying to find a job on the German market while on that tourist visa, you can get sent home. Additionally, you have to register with your local city when you start renting an apartment, and un-register when you leave, and you could face steep fines for not doing so (I know from personal experience). You have to show a visa to register, so it does matter.

        Additionally, and I want to throw this out here because I was affected, and I am in no way insinuating anyone here would do this, but just as information: Americans who come and try and don’t follow the rules really hurt the rest of us ex-pats abroad. For example: I can’t get a phone contract with most companies because many Americans have started contracts, gotten expensive phones, and then just took the phone back to America after a few payments, knowing Vodafone wouldn’t hunt them down in their home country.

      2. Semi-Anon for Identifying Details*

        Definitely do not “just go”! That’s a great way to end up deported and banned from country, and yes, I too know people who have had this happen, even without the work part, simply by overstaying a tourist visa.

        Think of it this way – if you’re living/working in a country without the correct visas and permissions, you are an illegal immigrant. Go off and read some news about how illegal immigrants are regarded in the US to get an idea of the potential consequences if you ignore the rules.

        You need permission from your own employer (tax/legal considerations), and you need a visa that permits you to live and work in the target country. Every country has its own rules, and the rules can vary depending on where you are from. If you’re doing this officially through work (posted there by your company, hired by a local company familiar with the process) it’s much easier and they can provide a lot of help, if you’re doing it spontaneously you’re going to need to hire a lawyer and probably an accountant with the relevant expertise, to figure out what you need before you go. This is complicated stuff and it’s not a good idea to wing it.

        Other things to consider – if you’re not an official resident, with a valid visa, you likely can’t rent an apartment, open a local bank account, get a cell phone plan, get utilities in your own name, get a local driver’s license, get car insurance, get health insurance. Places check, and they want a proper ID, not just a passport. I had to wait on all those things until I had my official ID card, moving abroad to work for a foreign institute.

        Both countries I’ve worked in required me to register my address with the government, and inform them if I moved (so couch surfing/AirBnBs are not an option). In the US (J1) I needed proof of medical and repatriation insurance, in Taiwan I am eligible for government health insurance as a local employee. In Taiwan, visas for work are restricted to particular types of jobs, while residency visas without local employment are mostly only for people married to citizens or the primary visa holder (plus student visas, which require registry in a valid program and proof of financial solvency). Being married to a primary visa holder gets you residency, but not a work permit. The only other path I know for non-employed residency visa is specifically for highly skilled people – PhD scientists, entrepreneurs, etc – and is pretty new and limited.

        I don’t know about the US, but if you’re Canadian and you live out of the country for more than half the year, you can lose eligibility for health insurance, as the national insurance has a residency requirement. So you couldn’t fly back to Canada for covered medical work. In that case, if you’re not eligible for insurance in your target country, you’d need to get special expat insurance.

        Oh, and a quick note – many countries stamp your passport on entry and exit, unlike the US. So you might be okay in the country, and then get caught for overstaying as you leave. They probably won’t detain you, but you can easily be denied re-entry. The fact that you have a bunch of possessions and a residence in the country doesn’t matter – there’s not a “go back and get my stuff first” exemption.

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          The ID issue is a good point, Semi-anon! You’ll definitely need a local ID in most places. And the passport stamping as well even in countries where you could potentially enter one, like Germany, and leave by a border one. I had to provide plane tickets and scanned copies of my passport pages of where I left Europe when I wanted to re-enter Germany, because they had thought I overstayed my visa. Fortunately, by always keeping emails that was easy enough. I had to show them my passport was stamped when I left through Spain.

    4. StellaBella*

      Some of the larger firms like Microsoft, Procter and Gamble, Google etc in Europe help employees with the tax stuff, but not sure on the short term work. All the advice here on visas, right to remain, taxes, and living expenses – also finding apartments (AirBNB is being really restricted in a lot of countries) all take time and may require a lot of papers if done legally. For my place, I live in Europe, for an apartment I needed to give 3 months of pay slips, passport, work/residence visa, letter of support from employer, evidence of insurance for apartment (that I had contacted an insurance firm for a quote), and evidence of no criminal records. Ask your HR team if a global transfer is possible and what help they would give to do this. Also if you speak the local language that helps a lot. Taxes in the new country can be a bear to figure out, too so making sure you pay your taxes on time and properly is super important too. Also, when I moved to the UK for a 2 year period I had to get a 400£ visa, to go as a student, and provide evidence of money to live there, etc etc … the visa costs can be high, esp if for a short period of time but a work visa is needed to be legal. A 90 day tourist thing with working and ignoring it all is not a smart move to make. Also 90 days is the visa limit in a lot of Europe and is the total between the Schengen countries, note.

      1. Wandering*

        And as to languages, expectations for learning & competence in new-to-you languages is very different in Europe than n the US. One friend accepted a position in another country. They provided 10 days of intensive language training & then sent her to her office. She was expected to be business competent in the language, & was the new boss in that office.

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          Hahahahahaha oh boy, 10 days to be business fluent?! I mean, if she already spoke Spanish and needed to learn Italian, MAYBE functionally that could work. But wow, this is hilarious!

      2. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        I’ve been in Europe for years (lol on the right visas) and never even realized the 90 day was a group total between countries! I learned something new! The insurance information is VERY accurate, many places require evidence of existing health insurance before they let you on their country’s plan.

    5. Edamame*

      Oh it me!

      I did it the other way around–I was living abroad as an expat and happened to get hired by an American company at the branch in my current country. Here are my thoughts:

      – yes visa stuff! This stuff is no joke and make sure your visa stuff is squared away. The process will make you more sympathetic to immigrants and green card holders in the US.

      – echoing what everyone else has said about tax stuff. The US is uniquely cruel to its (non-military) expats in this regard. Many people give up their US citizenship over it. You have to file every year regardless and give your SS# to local banks so they can be compliant with the IRS.

      – investing is also very hard. As an American you can’t invest in companies that aren’t on the US stock market, which means you basically can’t use any investment programs for locals. I have found one fiduciary willing to help me, most local financial people won’t work with Americans unless you’re very wealthy because of the extra hassle.

      – voting abroad is relatively easy, basically you follow the same procedures as military. One of the good things about having military presence around the world I guess.

      – if your country of choice does not have English as its official language, LEARN THE LOCAL LANGUAGE. I cannot stress this enough. English speakers are fortunate that we can go anywhere in the world and expect to be catered to. But it is not only disrespectful to make no effort, it will actually impede your success in work and acculturation. Learning about the local language and culture is the most important thing IMO.

      – as a foreigner coming in and getting settled, your coworkers will be doing a lot of above-and-beyond work to help acclimate you. They might help you find furniture, drive you places, help you open a bank account, translate for you at the supermarket, make sure you know what you need to know… Just acknowledge that and show gratitude!

      – everything else really depends on what country you work in and your nationality, honestly. It may be an “American company” but that doesn’t mean you will be primarily working with Americans at your office (I’m the only American at mine). Local working culture may be very different from what you are used to, it might be a diverse mix of people from all over the world, it might be a US enclave. If you are a citizen/descended from locals, then you may be treated like “just another local worker”, if you are not/visibly foreign you may be treated as an “eternal guest”.

      Other countries have the same issues with racism, sexism, xenophobia, overwork, awkward coworker interactions, and so on as the US. So you will need to do the same prep and investigation as anywhere else. Working abroad is a super fun experience and I recommend it to everyone!

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        I love everything about this post, Edamame! Can I ask which country you’re working in? I never considered the investment aspect, but I suppose we could do that through my German husband. And yes, I am so grateful voting is SO easy!

  2. Sunflower*

    What’s a normal level to hate your job/working? How many days do you think ‘wow I hate this’? Is it possible to have a job where you’re not just counting down the minutes until the weekend?

    I’m in a job right now that I know isn’t good for me– it’s not toxic but it’s in a very high stress industry and the actual job is not a right fit for my skills (I feel like the LW a few weeks ago in the project management job who isn’t organized!) and I don’t align with the company’s culture and values (nothing ethical, think ‘they prioritize making pretty PPTs vs executing deliverables’)

    I’m looking but I’m in such BEC with my current job that the littlest nuances set me off. My Sunday Scaries have gotten as bad as to start on Thursday nights sometimes. Social media has made it hard to tell what is normal to feel about work. I see so many memes about hating work and I think ‘is it like this for everyone? Is this just it’.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ideally you shouldn’t hate your job. You don’t have to love it, and it’s super normal to look forward to the weekend, but it sounds like you don’t like your job and it’s not a good fit – why not look elsewhere? You don’t have to hate your job in order to feel justified in searching for a new one. Give yourself permission to see what else is out there!

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I like my job but even in jobs I like less I didn’t think constantly about how much I hated them. They were boring, or had a lot of stupid rules, or customers were sometimes awful, but it wasn’t paralyzing.

    3. athiker10*

      I don’t hate my job! I was burned out in my last role at my current org, but switched to a new one and am much more engaged. I don’t agree with everything and I think certain people need to have some more people skills coaching. Given the choice between early retirement from magical money and continuing to work for them, I’d probably take early retirement, but might decide to work part time or something. I don’t buy into the idea that we have to love our job. I think striving to be challenged to grow in a job and a place where my values are somewhat aligned is the most I really ask for. (I still dread Mondays, but I probably always will)

    4. ThatGirl*

      I have never truly hated my job, although I’ve certainly had bad/frustrating days. I tend to be a pragmatic optimist, though. I think some of it is just personality, but that if you have more than the very occasional day when you flat out hate your job, it’s beyond time to look for a new one.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t think that level of hatred is normal. I’ve only had that for a short time at a few jobs, and either it got better quickly or I left the job. Ordinary frustration, day to day annoyances, short periods of intensity and difficulty — all normal, but truly hating everything is a sign (to me) that it’s time to move on.

    6. blink14*

      Yes, it is possible! My prior job had a horrible workplace environment and I would literally count down the hours every day and absolutely dread going to work every morning.

      My current job, while it has its trials and difficulties, is a much better work environment for me, both in the office and working remotely. The benefits and pay are also much better than my prior job (especially the paid time off), and it’s a much larger organization.

      It sounds like maybe both the job and the industry aren’t the right fit for you. It can be better!

    7. Jellyfish*

      It probably varies a lot by person & job.

      I had one job that I hated with everything in me. That was a very miserable few years, and I would not recommend it. My work misery bled into other parts of my life, and it was a bad deal.

      I’ve had several jobs that were okay. I didn’t love them, I preferred my time outside of work, but they weren’t awful either. They paid enough that I could enjoy other parts of my life, and that was sufficient.

      One job, I absolutely loved. I enjoyed the work I did, our mission was important, and I adored my coworkers. That job didn’t pay enough to be sustainable though, and I spent most of my time there worried about money.

      Now, I have a job that isn’t perfect, but I enjoy a lot more about it than I dislike. Of course I still look forward to weekends (or at least I will when I get vaccinated…), but I don’t dread Mondays or hate every minute on the clock.

      You don’t have to hate work. There are jobs and company cultures that aren’t miserable and toxic. Best of luck in finding a place that’s a better fit!

    8. Sled dog mama*

      I love my current job! But I will still occasionally think “X sucks” maybe once a month. I have learned to separate out I hate this part of my job from I hate my job.
      My previous job I hated so many aspects of it that it tipped into hating the job. If it’s just one thing (that isn’t a core part of the job) maybe you can fix it or get permission to pass that to someone else.
      For me I’m doing the exact same job in a smaller business with people who value work life balance more than my old job and respect that I know my job well and do it well.

    9. Emilitron*

      No, it does not have to be like this! The thing that made me start a job search was when I realized I was dreading my old job so much that I would spend my commute fantasizing about driving off the road, that the ER would be preferable to the office. I now have a job I like, and the worst days now are just “ok let’s get this over with” but even that level of dissatisfaction usually doesn’t last a whole week. There are meetings I look forward to, and meetings I know will be dullsville, but no sense of dread that invades my sleep the night before. You can find something better. I’m glad you’re looking. It will be better elsewhere!

      1. Renee Remains the Same*

        I also had ER fantasies… mine were along the lines of breaking my leg and ending up in traction at the hospital. Anything that would give me a break, a rest, and the ability to beg off work for a month or more. To be honest I have always been in the wrong profession, but was competent so continued down the career path. It’s led to sliding scales of acceptance. Some companies I worked for were better than others, which made it easier…. but after 2 decades of a career that never fit my personal or professional aspirations, I have to recommend trying for something different/better. It doesn’t have to be your dream job and you don’t have to love it, but I think if you feel confident in the work you do, you’ll feel better about the crappy parts of the job.

        1. Been There Done That*

          oh my goodness. Me to! I thought I was the only one who thought that way. That is when I knew it was time for me to leave!

    10. Person from the Resume*

      Hard to tell. I think if you have “Sunday Scaries” it’s time for a change and if they’re creeping in ON THURSDAYs you’re past time for a change.

      Is it the difference between “I wish I had another day off” and “I dread going to work tomorrow”? I think dread is a bad sign. IMO “I’d prefer not to have to work” is baseline normal. Almost no one would do their job for free. And “I’d prefer more vacation days” is baseline normal for Americans. I think the 40 hour week is more than we should have to work.

      I’m a Project Manager. I got stuck with a problem project where maybe I contributed to some of the problems but there was a definite problem with the contractors. I was entirely emmeshed and wouldn’t really see the way out except to keep trying. (Probably completely bought into the sunk cost fallacy even though I understand the fallacy.) I burned out, got depressed, got paralyzed by my inability to do certain tasks, got a lot of freedom but little help from my management. I did eventually ask for help and leave the problem project after getting the problem contractor wrapped up. I felt guilty about leaving it unfinished, but I needed to get out and am much happier working for the same organization on an entirely different project where I am not the lone PM so I have more support. And the contractors are great too. We’re having success although there’s always risks and surprises and delays.

      Long story short, it’s hard to know when to leave but you sound like you need to leave. Unlike myself, you need to leave your company for it to get better. But it can get better.

      1. Paris Geller*

        I agree with this. I like my job, but I still count down to the weekend because. . . well, I’d rather not work than work. But I don’t dread going to my job Sunday nights, there are things about my job that inspire and excite me, and even the worst parts of it are tolerable. I have had jobs I hated and that made me anxious, depressed, and sick to my stomach–and once you start feeling that way, it’s time to get out. For you, it sounds like it’s time to get out of this job. Maybe you’ll never have a job you LOVE, but you can definitely have a job you tolerate and that doesn’t give you Sunday blues by Thursday!!

        1. Just Another HR Pro*

          I concur with your comment, but that’s not why I am replying.

          Can I just say that Paris Gellar was the best character on GG? So – awesome screen name!

          1. Paris Geller*

            Agreed! Gilmore Girls is my all-time favorite show and the older I get, the more I love Paris. She’s not someone I would want as a coworker but does she get things done!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        If you are dreading going back to work on Monday and you haven’t even left the work week yet- this job is over.

        I don’t love my current job. But there are many things about it that I am grateful for. Sunday, or any other day, isn’t loaded with dread. I am not excited about getting extra rest and prepping for work, but I think it’s a pretty normal reaction. There are points during the day where I get a feeling of success with my own tasks and every so often I feel a “yippee, NAILED IT” type of thing. I work with good people who I am happy to see every day. But I don’t *love* my job, I am grateful for the job though. I’ve been doing it for 9 years and have no plan on leaving.

    11. Campfire Raccoon*

      When you get to the point you’re asking yourself this question, it’s time to leave.

    12. New Mom*

      If you really hate your job and you don’t see a future for yourself there, then it’s time to start looking. Similar to dating, if you were not really into your current partner and knew it wouldn’t last, would you stay with them when you could find someone better suited?

      Of the jobs that I’ve had there was only one that I really hated, it was a really stressful environment (crying on my lunch break) but I had wanted to keep that job until I went to graduate school. So I knew I wouldn’t be staying or ever trying to return. I was unhappy about 85%-100% of the day and dreaded work and had Sunday Scaries. Then it sort of hit me one day that though I would have less money saved for graduate school if I left a few months before grad school started, I was so unhappy there that it just wasn’t worth it. I was able to make that decision because I was living with my parents before my big move.

      I’ve definitely had frustrating weeks at my current job, but never the day-in-and-day-out dread, stress and feeling of failure I had at that old job. While I don’t think everyone will love their job, the good should outweigh the bad.

      1. t*

        Same here. I love what I do, but there are those days when I don’t like certain things, yet I don’t have anything remotely close to Sunday Scaries.

        OP, is it possible for you to create an exit plan, stick to it, and think of it whenever you feel anxious about your current job? Creating a next horizon has always helped me cope with circumstances I loathed.

    13. Cascadia*

      On the whole I like my job, I might even say I love my job, as much as one can love a job. Sure, there are parts that are a pain, or stressful, or boring, or annoying – but there are other parts that are fulfilling, fun, engaging, and satisfying. On the whole, work is work – would I rather be on vacation? sure, who wouldn’t? But I don’t dread going to work most days, I feel satisfied at the end of most work days, and I have enough time, money, and balance to do my hobbies/life my life when I’m not working. I don’t think it’s normal to vehemently hate your job and I want you to know that it’s possible to like your job.

    14. Lucy McGillicuddy*

      I used to hate my job just like you described – I found a new job (it took awhile!) and have been here for a year and still enjoy it. Some days I have meetings I’m not looking forward to but the worst days here are nowhere near my old job. I don’t even dread Mondays anymore. There’s hope!

    15. pcake*

      I don’t hate my job – usually I like it, as it offers me a great deal of autonomy and plays to my skills. There are times when it’s frustrating, but that’s true of anything.

    16. meyer lemon*

      I think that if you’re spending the weekend dreading the work week, and if you’re spending the majority of the day waiting for it to be over, you could do better. I’ve had a couple of jobs in the past where I found myself counting down the minutes practically as soon as I started every day. Those were both jobs that in retrospect, I wish I had quit long before I did.

    17. MissDisplaced*

      Even jobs you generally like have ups and downs and dreaded tasks, times or activities. And even if you like the work you do, it’s fairly normal to still feel frustrated at times or have days you dread going to work. I mean, work is called work for a reason, right!
      But if those feelings of dread start to happen EVERY day, or if you’ve begun to take no sense of enjoyment or satisfaction from your work at all, I’d say it’s time to move on and start your job search. With some, the disillusionment is with the company or position, and finding a better place (a different company or industry) to do your work solves it. Others may find the work is wrong type of work for them entirely, in which case I’d suggest reevaluating what type of work does make them happy. My one friend left marketing entirely because she got sick and tired of the subjective nature of it.

      Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this. Just know that you don’t have to “love” your work, nor does your work have to be your “passion.” Like, I say if I can be 80% ok with my work situation I can probably live with it. There are other ways to fulfill your creativity and passion in life.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        if you’ve begun to take no sense of enjoyment or satisfaction from your work at all, I’d say it’s time to move on and start your job search. With some, the disillusionment is with the company or position, and finding a better place (a different company or industry) to do your work solves it. Others may find the work is wrong type of work for them entirely, in which case I’d suggest reevaluating what type of work does make them happy.

        And there are some of us who just hate working period. I’ve had to finally face that fact about myself after nearly two years of really enjoying (and almost loving) what I did to no longer wanting to be here and counting down the minutes each day until I can log out and go about my business designing Instagram posts or something.

        I don’t hate my job, I just…don’t care. I’m bored and would rather be doing other creative things instead (my stupid graduate program in Professional Technical Writing and all of the hands-on projects I’ve been required to complete have ruined my desire to do my current job, I swear). I’ve inevitably felt this sense of boredom with pretty much every job I’ve ever had and really truly only hated three jobs/roles over a 10 year career.

        I swear, I didn’t have insane student loan debt to pay off and really expensive rent, I would just quit and do occasional freelance work and call it a day.

    18. Canadian*

      I’m on a second career – but in my first career, I had a lot of what you describe – dreading Monday, etc. I worked in a client management / project management role and I was really good at it and I actually thought I liked the work. Because I worked in a couple of toxic places, I thought it was the work enviroment for the longest time – I worked in three different companies in advertising before leaving the industry. Turns out I might have been good at it but I hated it. It made me miserable.

      I went back to school, became an accountant and some days I love my job some days I like it and the odd day – I don’t like it very much at all. But since changing careers (and I’ve spent this entire career at one company – longest I was ever in one company before this was 2 years and 2 months) I’ve almost never experienced what you are talking about or what I used to feel (the one time I did – I had a change in managers and knew I had to find something else, it wasn’t going well).

      So no, it’s not normal. It’s not all sunshine and roses, but it shouldn’t feel like its sucking the life out of your life or hurting your soul.

    19. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      There are tasks or particular parts of my job that I hate, but overall I like my job. I think that’s the difference. If I hate PowerPoints, but I only do them once a month, and the rest of the time I’m happy with my work; or I like 60% of the people I work with, 30% I can live without, and 10% I actively rage-hate, that’s pretty normal. When you dread every part of your job, it’s time to go.

      1. allathian*

        I’ll have to disagree with you here. If you actively rage-hate any of your coworkers, that’s bad. Either you’re in a toxic environment that permits bullying and harassment, or you need to adjust your attitude to indifference. I mean, I’ve worked with people before who were awful enough that I wouldn’t have cared if they lived or died, but I didn’t hate them to the point of active rage.

    20. Cat Tree*

      I have definitely been in jobs where I woke up every single day and contemplated taking a sick day. It’s unfortunately very common, but not universal. I’m now in a job that I like and have been with the company for almost 5 years. I’m planning to stay until I retire or they kick me out due to layoffs.

      I know it feels especially hopeless during a bad economy wuthering it’s hard to find something better. I was in a terrible job from 2008 to 2011. I hated that job so much then when I got laid off, my first feeling was relief (then panic about money).

      But hold on to your sanity however you can and keep looking. FWIW, I realized that for me to like a job, it matters less what actual day-to-day work I do (as long as it’s in my general field) and more about support/empowerment from management to actually do my job successfully. I’m no longer chasing down people two levels above me and practically begging them to approve something because someone else needs it from me. I’m no longer missing due dates for things that are assigned to me but I need something from another person who is unreliable. I no longer have bosses that avoid talking to anyone at all costs. It has made such a huge difference, so you might want to ask questions about that kind of thing when you start getting interviews.

      And it can be helpful to reset your expectations. It shouldn’t have to be so bad that bad that you’re counting the minutes until the weekend, but it also doesn’t have to be fun or life-fulfilling. Aim for a job that you can spend a lot of time doing without hating every second of it. You don’t have to love it, just like it enough to not be constantly miserable.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Maybe, but maybe not. I consider myself very good at what I do, and yet, I hate working too.

    22. Courageous cat*

      It’s hard to say but I think you are past normal levels if the Sunday scaries start on Thursday nights. I know when my Sunday scaries start on Saturday nights that I’m pretty much done for at that job.

      I have a job, about every other job I have actually, that comes with zero dread. Highly recommend looking around. Maybe for a startup or something.

    23. Bree*

      There have been a couple times in my career I felt true dread and hatred about a job on a daily basis, and I wondered if it was just me not being tough enough, or not managing my anxiety well. It wasn’t. Both times, when I changed organizations things improved dramatically and immediately.

      Now, I’m in a job that is demanding and often stressful, and yes, I do usually look forward to the weekend. But I don’t hate it – in fact, there are plenty of times when I enjoy it, and those good times help balance out the stressful ones. I’d say trust your instincts here and start looking to make a change.

    24. Dog Coordinator*

      For me, this was when I knew I had to start looking elsewhere. The second I woke up, I dreaded being awake for work. I would try to fall asleep but still be writing emails/to do lists in my head. I would rather stare at a blank wall than do the work I needed to do. Weekends were entirely filled with anxiety, and I was self medicating with (legal in my state) recreational drugs just to be functional and not anxious 24/7. I ended up doing a few months of therapy, realized the true toll this toxic job was taking on me and my relationship, and realized my boss is a narcissist who would never change. I also started setting more boundaries between work and life, which helped too. I’m in the process of interviewing elsewhere, but I think you should also consider starting your search, and/or therapy too. No one has to LOVE everything about their job, and it’s ok to just have a job that pays your bills. But once it starts tanking the rest of your week/mood, it’s time to go. Hope you find something better!

    25. Canadian Girl*

      This quote I found somewhere by someone is what I always try to share to those that ask kind of the same thing.
      “There will be something you hate in every job. The trick is finding a job where you love the good parts enough to make up for the crappy parts.”  

    26. aubrey*

      I have both jobs I hated and jobs that were fine – I’m not sure I could really have a job I love because the things I love don’t pay well and I’d just rather be independently wealthy and spend all my time with my non-monetized hobbies haha. But what I expect from a decent job is “I feel fine about trading doing this for money” with some moments of “okay this part is enjoyable” and some inevitable moments of “ugh this again”. It’s a very different feeling than the “I hate this and want to call in sick or possibly flee the country so I never have to see this building or these people or ever think about this again”, you know? Feeling like you’d prefer to not be working is pretty normal, I think. Constantly hating it and not even being able to enjoy your time off is a different thing and something you should get out of if at all possible.

    27. Donkey Hotey*

      My father-in-law’s rule is 70/30. It’s ok to hate your job 30% of the time, which works out to about three days per fortnight.

    28. Asenath*

      It’s certainly possible to have a job you hate! I had to get out of a job I hated – I left it rather late, and so wouldn’t advise others to delay finding a new job if they’re at the hating every minute and counting down towards the weekend stage of the one they have. What I think is more normal is to like (but not necessarily love) your work more often than not, dismissing the inevitable parts you dislike or are bored by as “Mondays are so tedious because I always have to do X, but I’ll get through it and not think about it again until next week”. There’s lots of jobs which might not be something you adore, but which you like more than you dislike, and which pay the bills.

    29. Quinalla*

      No, that is not normal. I’m not saying folks aren’t right there with you – I’m sure there are a good number especially with the pandemic – but hating your job that much is not normal. I’m very lucky my current job I enjoy. There are parts of it that are annoying, but I mostly look forward to working while also looking forward to free time.

      I’ve had temporary jobs I disliked that much, where if I hadn’t had an end date in sight soon and a need for the $$, I would have quit. These were food service jobs when I was in college and they were extremely boring for me, not something I would want to do day-in-day-out forever. Mad respect for those who can do that type of work and even thrive in it, it was not for me. What helped me get to my end date was knowing it was temporary and making challenges for myself to make things more interesting.

      I hope you find a new job soon, if you aren’t looking yet, start looking!

    30. Corporate Drone Liz*

      Honestly? I’d say what you’re experiencing isn’t a normal level of hatred. I think it’s normal to hate your job during stressful peaks (like a CPA during tax season) but this sounds like both a poor match of your skillset AND not a great fit company-wise (it’s no wonder you’re getting the Sunday Scaries!).

      Are you putting in crazy hours? Could you set aside more time for hobbies or personal time (I don’t know what part of the world you’re in but understand this has gotten more difficult with COVID)? I think having some things to look forward after work hours could help ease that stress a bit. Good luck!

    31. DogMom*

      I’m here.. Again. I’ve been in high stress jobs for over 10 years. My current role is high stress in a normal environment; the pandemic has made things so much worse. My mental and physical health have gone downhill exponentially in the last few years. People are being written up and disciplined for increasingly random things.
      I absolutely dread going to work. Having burned out in previous jobs I know it isn’t normal but despite looking for months finding a new job has been elusive.

      It’s not normal to hate going to work. Hang in there. Something will come up and you will find something that works better for you.

    32. Invisible Fish*

      Oh, wow- you sound like me when I stupidly took a job I knew was bad for me. I can’t offer you much, except to tell you that even though you *feel* trapped, you will make it out of this into a job that isn’t such a terrible fit.

    33. Lyudie*

      I just want to say you are not alone. I’m not sure if it’s the stress of Covid etc. (even though I like working from home!) but I have been feeling the same way. I took an emergency mental health day a few weeks ago because as I was lying awake at 1 am, I had the thought that if I got Covid at least I wouldn’t have to go to work…I decided that was probably a bad sign and took the next day off.

    34. Deborah*

      I tend to discount anyone who says they would do their job if they didn’t get paid unless it’s vocational life calling stuff like charity (working with animals or helping people) and those can be very heavy burdens themselves!

      But my personal barometer is that a) I shouldn’t be worrying about work when I’m not there and b) I shouldn’t be dreading going back to work on Monday. I know that sounds like impossibility right now, but that’s how I judge it. I’ve had jobs that I thought were wonderful and I told other people how great they were for years, and I left and had such great stress relief, and that’s where I developed those two rules. That doesn’t mean I can always attain it, but it’s a measurement I trust.

      1. soshedances1126*

        Lol… Glad you have that caveat. I work with animals and I have to say that yes, if I didn’t have to work for money, I would do my job for free. Perhaps not full time hours, but I would absolutely still be volunteering a significant chunk of time every week to keep doing what I do. But I recognize that’s not normal and that I’m extremely lucky to love going to work every day (and still love my job when I leave every night). It’s a heavy burden sometimes for sure, but it’s worth it 100% of the time.

    35. ten-four*

      Another vote of “it’s not common or expected to hate your job THAT much.” I’m lucky enough to finally be in a spot where I actively enjoy my job, but even in my worst jobs I never felt the way you’re describing (and I had one job that sent me to therapy for heaven’s sake – it was pretty grim).

      After this past year I’m not much interested in any new changes, but it sounds to me like getting out of your current job into something else would make a really significant positive change in your day-to-day life!

    36. Raised by Wolves*

      I like my actual job, but hate my manager to the degree that I get minor panic before every meeting. I was hired in this role by another manager who was amazing but my company hired a management consultant team that hired an executive for our department who fired my manager, and now I have to report to Nosferatu directly.

      I love my coworkers, enjoy the work I am doing, and am ok with the company itself, but because of the critical and micromanaging interactions from my new manager (who was hired in to be the grandboss of my team, not my direct manager) I can’t sleep at night which makes everything worse. I suspect that his bullying is just a way to make our jobs so unpleasant that we will all leave and he will have his own people in place rather than have to work with a team he didn’t hire.

      1. allathian*

        That’s probably true… I’m sorry he’s such a jerk and I do recommend that you start looking for a new job now before you’re too exhausted and depressed to be at your best in an interview.

    37. Nacho*

      Very few people actually like their job (anybody who says they do is lying), but you shouldn’t hate it either. Ideally, you should be able to numb yourself to its influence, and just kind of sleep through it as if in a haze.

    38. TechWorker*

      I like my job a lot, now. I had a period in the same job where I hated it all the time, I literally would tear up walking to work because I didn’t want to face another day and got pretty close to quitting. I was totally burnt out and under a lot of pressure. What changed? Different, more experienced manager.

    39. Robin Ellacott*

      No! This sounds pretty unpleasant for you. Of course people’s individual tolerances vary but in your shoes I would be looking to escape.

      I mostly like my job and find it rewarding. This week has been really rough with both personal stress (my mum is ill) and work interpersonal issues and excessive workload. However I haven’t felt like you describe. I have very stressful days but the only time I am dreading work beforehand is when I have to have a really hard conversation (firing someone or similar) the next day.

      If thoughts of work impact your ability to enjoy non-work times, that seems to me like a sign it’s not a good place for you.

    40. allathian*

      I’ve only hated one job I had as a student at a 24/7 fast food place. At first I hated the night shifts only, but before long I started hating going there at all. After I spent a whole night crying because I had to get up at 5 am to be at work by 6.30, I was done with it. It’s the only job I’ve quit with no notice. They were used to it and there was a lot of staff turnover, mostly students. I didn’t burn my reference either, because that place only confirmed dates of employment.

      I like my current job. I like the job itself, at least most of the time, I like my manager and coworkers well enough to work with, although I don’t necessarily want to spend any of my leisure time with most of them. Sure there are days when I’d rather not go to work, but they’re few and far between. I don’t dread Mondays, although admittedly I do look forward to the weekend and going on vacation. That’s normal, most people do.

    41. Kat Em*

      I don’t hate my job! I wish I had more autonomy and I wish I didn’t have to work weekends, but I like my coworkers and my boss and while the role isn’t using all my skills to the max, it’s a “close enough for another year or two” fit. It really is possible to feel okay at work, and it really is okay to look for a job that you don’t hate and an employer that values at least some of the same things you do.

  3. A Simple Narwhal*

    Someone mentioned in Wednesday’s post (How do I Find a Job When I’m Underqualified for Everything) that an issue with the current job market is that the US hasn’t had a period of sustained full employment since the 90s, which means there’s a whole generation of managers who have only hired in an employer’s market. “They can get away with posting wish lists and half the time get applicants who fulfill all of those qualifications.”

    I think that’s a fascinating thing to consider. I wonder how things would have been different now if covid hadn’t happened – we were just starting to experience a market that more favored applicants, I wonder if we’ll get back there as things recover, and what that switch would have looked like.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I don’t doubt that those exist! But it doesn’t appear to be the majority for most industries, and hasn’t been for a while.

        Out of (genuine) curiosity, which sectors are they?

        1. I'm that guy*

          I work in the regulatory side of Biopharma and we are always looking for good people to the point were you can get a $3000-5000 referral bonus for a Medical Writer.

        2. Kyubey*

          I am in accounting, it’s only been a little less than 5 years since I graduated college, but my experience having been in 3 different jobs since, is that accounting is one of those fields, where there is high demand for applicants even in a pandemic, I am also in a large city however.

        3. Quinalla*

          Construction is still very much an applicant’s market – I work adjacent to it and they are hard pressed to find folks with experience and are happy to take folks who want to learn, but have a hard time getting anyone.

          1. Anon today*

            I’m in radio, but one of our advertisers is an oil field support company. They need drivers and are running about $1,000 worth of ads per month specifically targeting CDL drivers to hire. He says if they have a CDL, he’s hiring them on the spot, but he’s just not getting enough applicants.

            1. Mimi*

              This aligns with what I heard when we were helping students get their Commercial Drivers’ License.

            2. turquoisecow*

              My mom just retired from a school bus company, but it’s similar for truckers – a lot of places will train you, pay you during training, and take you to get your CDL. They’re that desperate for drivers.

        4. Pidgeot*

          Tech industry is very much an applicant’s market for programming and software engineer talent.

          1. TechWorker*

            +1, I get messages on linked in at least once a week asking if I’m interested in a job someone is recruiting for. (I know that’s not remotely the same as ‘an offer’ – but lots of companies are aggressively hiring)

        5. 30 Years in the Biz*

          I’m in biotech too, but people with my degree, certification, and background also work for hospitals and clinics. Clinical Lab Scientists, Cytologists, Histologists, Pathology Assistants are in short supply. Many in these fields are retiring, and given the gap from the 1980s (HIV decreased the numbers of people interested in training in healthcare) there is a need. In biotech, I see a lot of openings for quality assurance personnel including managers and directors.

        6. hellion*

          I’m a court reporter in Canada and everyone who graduates pretty much just has to choose where they want to work and essentially tell the employer they’d like to work there. I did my practicum at my current workplace, loved it, and just said “Hey, I’d love to come work for you.”
          I can’t speak to the US market but I know in Canada if you get through the program (notoriously gruelling and you have to put in a lot of work to succeed but I also saw people who just couldn’t reach their speeds despite trying hard and practicing hard) you can have your pick of places to go. I’m a contractor but just with one firm, so I get the freedom of choosing days off (if they’re particularly busy they may say no, but I know one guy who just takes his laptop with him to work on transcripts and travels for months out of the year) but I also have the support of a workplace behind me. You can choose how much you want to work, and if you want more money that month, you just work more.

          1. TPEL/OE/KROR*

            I’m a court reporter in California! (Also freelance deposition work.) We were insanely busy with more work than we could handle from about 2016-2019. It’s starting to get very busy again now, and when the courts can fully resume doing civil trials, the floodgates will open. It’s a difficult and rigorous path to licensure and not a very well known career, so there will continue to be more than enough work for anyone who does get through the schooling. I love my job for the freedom to set my own schedule and the endless variety!

      2. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

        ooh yes. My husband works in one of those. You could get fired in the morning, call a few people, and have a new job in the afternoon. (If you were a liability, word would get around, your options would dwindle, and you’d only get crappy jobs with lousy companies.)

        However things are getting tighter – bad employees are getting fired quicker. Managers are informally nosing about to check references. People just can’t afford bad hires now.

    3. New Mom*

      Companies also need to set up systems to embrace brand new employees. Many companies, mine included, have everyone spread so thin that new people are often expected to immediately pick up the slack by hitting the ground running and that’s not possible for a super green worker. And many of the veteran staff are not giving slack in their duties to properly train people coming in with a steep learning curve.

      1. TWW*

        I like the idea of hiring a green person and training them (that’s how I got to where I am in my career), but in my experience it’s hit or miss.

        I’m a teapot designer. My duties include painting teapots with existing designs and designing new teapots. My boss wanted to hire someone to take over the bulk of my duties so I could concentrate on developing new beverage service technology.

        Instead of hiring an experienced designer, my boss instead promoted our top-performing teapot handler with the intention to train him as a designer. After two years, it turns out he’s good at painting existing designs, but has no talent for creating new designs.

        That result was not good for anyone: My assistant now finds himself in an entry-level job where he’s unlikely to be promoted. I’m stuck splitting my time between boring teapot design and exiting beverage tech dev. And my employer has two employees who don’t fit into their intended org chart.

        In retrospect I wish we had just posted “wanted, teapot designer, 2+ years experience, submit portfolio”.

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve been thinking about that too, and also the point someone brought up (I’m sorry, I lost the original comment) that companies are no longer willing to train on the job. I’m looking to pivot my career and have extremely transferrable skills (fundraising into sales – it’s the same thing!) but because I don’t have specific software experience or know all the business jargon, it’s not going to happen. I’m wondering what the heck one should do if they didn’t happen to start their career in exactly the field they want to end up in, because from my perspective it’s getting extremely challenging to make a change if you don’t fit every box perfectly.

    5. CatMintCat*

      I’m a teacher in rural/outback Australia. Every school in my district is understaffed – our local high school (500 students) is short ten teachers. My tiny school (85 students) is short one teacher. There are no substitute teachers anywhere within hundreds of kilometres.

      Basically, if you have a teaching degree, you will get hired.

    6. Philosophia*

      “They can get away with posting wish lists and half the time get applicants who fulfill all of those qualifications.” During the Great Recession, when (after decades in the job market, and despite assiduous efforts) I was unemployed for three years, barring a half-year project position, I observed that employers could require that an applicant have X, Y, and Z qualifications, N years of experience, AND be a left-handed redhead—and get exactly what they wanted.

  4. Recession trauma*

    I’m in a low-tech version of a tech job, serving an old-fashioned industry. The pay and job title are stagnant, with no room for growth. My skills are atrophying, and I’m just plain bored. But, the company is incredibly stable and has good business practices: privately owned, budgets decades ahead of time, etc.

    I’m still traumatized from the 2008 recession. I was laid off three times in three years, I was barely putting food on the table by juggling multiple waitressing jobs, and my savings were completely drained. My retirement was set back by 8-10 years. I was out of my field for so long that people assumed I gave birth and stayed home with a kid until kindergarten age.

    Keeping my job during the past year has been such a balm for my mental health, it feels insane to go looking for more. I could definitely retire from here if I stayed. But my earning power is so diminished, would going somewhere less stable for significantly more money make sense? As a middle-aged woman in tech, I am probably running out of time to jump jobs.

    I know nobody can make this decision FOR me, but has anyone figured out a similar issue for themselves? How did you make the decision, and what was your result?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      A lot of people get into a mindset that their job has a special benefit that no other job can offer, like pay, flexible schedules, stability, or good benefits. But there are many, many companies that can offer the same thing, it just takes time to investigate and time to wait for a position to open.
      Start looking into potential employers and set up a Linkedin or Indeed search to send you job openings from those companies. You are actually in a pretty good spot where you can take your time to wait for the right job to surface.

      1. Mimi*

        I stayed in my last job as long as I did in part because I didn’t want to go back to only having two weeks of vacation… but when I did wind up looking, pretty much anywhere that I would want to work offered at least as much vacation as I had at that job (four weeks + five sick days).

    2. Emilitron*

      The nice thing about choosing between stability and growth is that you can do a job search for a growth opportunity without ever having to leave your stable job. Right now you’re trying to decide if an unknown less stable good money new employer new tech job would be “worth it” and you don’t have any data. I encourage you to start looking, you don’t have to decide to take it, but you should decide to look.

    3. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

      I’m in a similar position and I’m terrified to leave. Instead, I’ve focused on increasing my skills and employability. I take advantage of every professional development opportunity and build my network. I take on periphery projects that are exciting for me. I’m officially overqualified for my own job but I’m building the skills I need to be able to really grow either into a new position or relatively easily rise in rank at a different company. When I look at openings, I focus on institutions that have a track record of stability and growth so I can either continue my personal growth with different opportunities or rise in the ranks.

    4. pcake*

      Can you do some side work to help hone your skills or take online classes or download a trial to get skills up to date? That might help with the overall feeling of slipping away, side jobs can bring in some money, and once your skills are in better shape, you’ll be in a better position to job hunt. Also you might end up finding a different job at a stable company through the side work.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I get the appeal of a stable job and steady paycheck.
      But here’s the thing: It costs you nothing to research and look at other job scenarios.
      As for retirement: If you’re >50 I get wanting to stay, and indeed that might be the best move if your employer offers a pension or matching 401k you’re taking advantage of for the next 15-20 years. If that’s the case, consider upward mobility within the company that pays better. Or, could you keep that stable, boring job but start a side hustle to boost your earning power? You have options.

    6. Carol*

      I can identify a lot with what you’ve written here, including recession trauma and my current job situation.

      I think it’s about focusing on recognizing the risk we’re all exposed to in our jobs, but not letting that risk unnecessarily constrain us or see our choices as narrower than they really are. Can you set some kind of financial goal that might help you feel freer? If you save “x” amount as a safety net, you’re allowed to search less stable opportunities, for instance?

      But also–do you know other places would be less stable? Having gone through the previous recession and now the pandemic, I’m seeing more clearly that really there’s no place that’s risk-averse. What if all of society’s rules change in 5 years due to something unexpected? Would your current “very stable” job really survive anything? You need to balance your need for a feeling of stability (a very real human need) with your need for growth and development. What’s the bigger risk to you?

    7. Troutwaxer*

      It sounds like there are some really good advantages to your work situation, so my answer for you is really more technical than employment related, – and keep in mind that I don’t know what kind of tech you do – but have you asked the necessary questions about how much technical debt your organization has accumulated? And what, if anything is your company doing to make sure that they don’t suddenly find that their office/automation isn’t so far behind the curve that catching up has become next to impossible? And what, if anything, can you do to make sure that hasn’t happened? Is the network up to date, with modern (and secure) routers at the Dmarc and (at least) gigabit switches? Are you programming in a language that might be near end-of-life, like Flash? (I knew a guy who was programming an amazing system in Silverlight when MS EOLed it, and he lost years of work.) What about your backup and storage? And so on, over every kind of tech your company uses?

      If you’re working at a company which is technically behind that will have consequences eventually, and maybe sooner than anyone expects. So maybe one way out of your conundrum is to do some work on future-proofing your organization. If your company isn’t interested in improving their systems I think you probably need to work on 1.) Improving your skills in whatever you do, and 2.) Finding a new place.

      But the big thing about finding a new place is that you can afford to be picky. If the job situation is currently stable, look for someplace close to home with a good culture and no red flags, which pays a great salary, etc.

      1. Hunybee*

        I was a flash designer for years! I started moving into UX design right around the time of the 2008 recession because I started hearing the rumblings about how people hated working with Flash and saw the writing on the wall. To be honest, though, I loved working with it and I still wish I could sometimes. But moving into another aspect of my work proved to be a better option long term.

        …..I can relate to everything the OP said in regard to PTSD about the recession. I lost my retirement too, and probably the same age range, and I feel like I will never fully catch up! But I also don’t want to fall behind the curve. It’s deathly to get trapped in arcane processes especially if you work in the tech field.

        Dear OP — would you feel comfortable starting to explore online learning options? I did a lot of Lynda.com and still do, and you may find that you feel a real passion for something else. At the very least, this seems to be a great time to start upgrading your skills to move away from your job. It can be hard to devote time to that, and work, and interviewing and real life all at once, but I think that your instinct is correct in that in tech especially none of us can afford to fall behind if we’re mid-career.

        And so great that your instincts are strong and you recognize this. It may take a while for your comfort level to catch up, but that’s ok too. Change is hard and we’ve had a lot of it in the past 10 years.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I stayed at a job for 11 years that I did not like. And I stayed because of previous employment trauma and my unwillingness to be without a paycheck. These are not truly good reasons for staying. You can end up burned out, bitter/angry or maybe depressed by feeling stuck. My place did not lend itself well toward keeping up with modern technology. Okay the tech was laughable. I fell so far behind that the only way I could beef up my skills was to get out entirely.

      I have a suggestion. Picture yourself on retirement day. What are you telling yourself?
      “At least I remained employed!”
      OR
      “I should have tried to do more with my career.”
      Do you think of the donut, or do you think of the hole in the middle of the donut?

      From your description here, I wonder if your company will even last long enough for you to make it to retirement. It sounds like it’s antiquated already.
      Another thing that popped at me is the idea that any other place would be less stable. I would fall over in surprise if that were actually true. There’s a good number of places that are fairly stable. And i think the actual focus needs to be on can you get a job at these places or has your company held you back too much for too long.

      And this one is near and dear to my heart right now because I am actually doing it. Take a look at social security and when it kicks in for you. Get a rough idea of how much you can earn and still collect social security. It could be that you decide to stay at this place until retirement but once retired, you take a smaller job somewhere else.
      So your answer might be a mix of things. Don’t forget retirement is just one day, then after that you will have a whole bunch of days to fill up with some type of activity. How would you like to fill up your retirement time?

      1. Recession trauma*

        The company will definitely last; I may have been too opaque in my description. It isn’t a tech company, I just do a tech-related job there. The company started prior to WWI, and has multiple major branches that counterbalance with the economy (i.e., one is big in a bear market, another is big in a bull market).

    9. Corporate Drone Liz*

      I used to be a recruiter, and I worked with quite a few candidates in your shoes. Here’s the point I would always remind them: you don’t have any decisions to make until an offer is on the table. So why not apply and see if you get any bites? You have a huge advantage in that you have a stable job and aren’t going to abandon ship for just any role, so you can be afford to be picky about salary, location, etc.

      Also, I always find it way easier to polish my resume when I’m still in a job than after I leave. Plus if I’m not getting a lot of traction with applications it usually means I need to tweak it more. These are all things I’d rather be doing when I’m employed and not looking too aggressively rather than when I’m not working/panicked about landing something ASAP.

    10. Malika*

      Also as a middle-aged worker you still have more options than you think. My most succesful sales guy is in his 60’s. Went away, did some freelancing and then got re-hired. We shouldn’t feel trapped, if we keep our skills and network up to date we have more power than we think.

    11. emmelemm*

      Just wanted to reply in solidarity. I’m also a middle aged woman in a “tech” job that is very old technology at this point. It’s stable but stagnant, both in terms of pay and learning. But I very much feel my middle age when thinking about trying to jump jobs.

    12. Deborah*

      I’m 39 and in tech. I was working for a small, unstable company last year, and they were treating me increasingly badly. I switched in August and I feel great about it. The company I work for now is in the telecommunications industry, and they were stable through the pandemic and even able to give bonuses for 2020. I would suggest looking for similar industries that need tech workers that aren’t on such a boom and bust cycle.

    13. Quinalla*

      I made the move from a similar job (Middle-aged woman mechanical engineer here) – stable, good benefits, low pay to a more challenging job, still just as stable, nearly as good of benefits – I negotiated for more PTO to keep that in line – and way more pay. I made the jump because my kids were out of the baby/toddler “hell” years where you just are running on no sleep so I was ready for a big challenge and I was tired of being underpaid when I was confident I could do well at a challenging job. I didn’t start out underpaid, but classic only got one raise and had been underpaid for (ouch) at least 5 years and probably more.

      The move was 100% worth it to me. I may end up retiring from this job if things keep going well, if they don’t, I have significantly expanding my network so I have places I could likely get a job if needed in the future.

      You are worth the pay and while more pay isn’t worth every sacrifice, for me it was worth some. And I’ve been able to carve out a job that works for me at this new place because I have so much more opportunity to do different things.

      I strongly recommend as others have to at least do a soft search, see what is out there. I do one every couple years myself to see what is available and check if my salary is still competitive. I don’t have any intention of leaving right now, but it is good to know what is out there. I don’t apply to anything in my soft searches, but you may want to!

  5. Threeve*

    This is something many people have been dealing with since the start of the pandemic, but it’s new to me. I started a new job in November, and what I wasn’t prepared for how little I actually communicate with people. My team at Old Job was very friendly and supportive, and I took it for granted. It wasn’t an unhealthy work-is-my-entire-social-life situation, but it was very social and collaborative.

    My new department has only two other people, both senior to me, and both of them are uninterested in talking about anything other than work (and mostly via email and chat, we’re 100% remote right now). I feel so isolated, and it’s taking a toll on my mental health.

    I thought I would have adapted to the dynamic after almost four months, but it just feels worse and worse. It would have been a dealbreaker if I’d known before accepting the job.

    One of them has always been remote, so I doubt a return to in-office work will change much. I know a lot of people have been in this situation, especially this year. Any suggestions?

    1. cbh*

      I don’t know how to solve things work wise, but can you ramp things up in your social life. Join some clubs or volunteer so you get more social interaction.

      I work in a very social friendly company but I am definitely the more quite bookworm. I love it. I’ve managed to change my proceedures (for the job’s efficiency not my timid personality) where I don’t really have much interaction with others outside of water cooler talk. It wasn’t enough for me and I was trying to break out of my shell. I ended up volunteering somewhere. In theory this volunteering is my dream job in another field, but I’m not ready to switch to a whole new career in a different industry. Not only did it give me more to contribute at water cooler talk, but for those not interested in work chit chat, I had a new set of people to speak with who were interested in what I could contribute to my (new volunteer) job. It kind of balanced out for me.

    2. New Mom*

      Will you be going into the office in a few months? And if you do, how many other people will be working there? I ask because if you’ll be in person, and there are other people, it may be worth it to see if you connect with others at the office and there will be camaraderie there. You may have just ended up on a team that you don’t personally connect with which can be really hard during remote work.

      1. Threeve*

        I don’t have much hope for things being very different with the return to in-person work, however that shakes out. It’s one of several offices of a medium-sized nonprofit, mostly older employees, and many of the interactions I’ve had with people in other departments have been terse or mildly condescending. The monthly all-staff Zoom meetings have all been fairly unsmiling affairs, just executives making announcements.

    3. Smithy*

      I had this kind of job years before COVID, and as a fairly extroverted person, the initial shock was truly painful. Even though my previous position was on a team of one, I sat in the middle of a full open office plan around a lot of workplace discussion and my work was highly collaborative across teams. To find myself able to go occasionally go an entire day without speaking to anyone potentially hours on end was really unsettling.

      The best advice I got then was to not try and find ways to make the job more accomodating in that respect, but to more highly cultivate my social life. In part that did mean more built in breaks to text friends during the day, but also to prioritize having more social engagements after work.

      Over time as I began to be happier at my job (because I had more social avenues entirely apart from work), I met more colleagues on other teams where there both became more opportunities for professional collaboration as well as socializing. That being said, finding ways to be happier at work I think helped me significantly on that front.

    4. RecoveringSWO*

      Are there any other pandemic/recent hires in other departments? See if you can track that info down from onboarding emails or asking around and then try to set up a “newbie” virtual meet and greet or lunch.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Sounds like this is just the nature of the job, and you should try and work on getting the social interaction you need outside of work. I am one of those people who don’t want to talk about anything but work when I’m at work. File this away as something you’ve learned about yourself and this job, and maybe start job-hunting.

    6. Wordybird*

      I took a job mid-pandemic where I knew I would be the only person in my department but what I didn’t realize is that my day-to-day work doesn’t require any interaction or collaboration with any other departments. My boss is the only person I talk to regularly at my company, and while I can message other people in the company (and they’re all nice enough people), it feels strange to since we’re all working from home & we don’t work together so I don’t know anything about them personally. I’ve never even met any of them!

      I’ve decided that this drawback is worth the other benefits I’m acquiring at this job: a salary, insurance, reliable work that I know how to do well, and the ability to buy my very first home. Once I am post-vaccine, I plan on being very intentional in how I get my “people fix” outside work so that I don’t need to get it from work and can continue to focus on why I took the job in the first place. At some point, my department will either expand so that I do have other people to interact with regularly or I will move on to a different company, and I am happy to wait in this moment to see which happens.

      I hope that was helpful in some way?

    7. TWW*

      I have little interest in socializing with my coworkers, so your job would be a good fit for me. I like my coworkers, but I prefer having friends outside of work.

      Would you be interested in joining a book club, or starting one with non-work friends?

    8. Hillary*

      Try connecting with people outside your team. It’s usually easier to start with people that you tangentially work with. My team is similarly small, we try to to each have a casual catch up conversation with someone outside our team every week. It helps us replicate the connections we miss from the office.

    9. Lovecraft Beauty*

      I have a very similar problem! My old team was very friendly (and in-person), and my current team was standoffish even before the work-from-home directive, so now I can go days without more than brusque interactions. I hate it, and I’m surprised by how much I hate it, because I’m super introverted, but the emotional coolness really gets to me.

      I’ve been trying to form relationships with people on other teams, with middling success, and really leaning on my out-of-work social network, because I’m desperate for positive social interaction. It’s hard, man. Sympathies.

    10. Quinalla*

      Definitely ramp up your non-work social interactions, that will help some anyway. Can you join a professional group/society related to your job? Might give you a more work-related social outlet. Lockdown should easing in a few months as more people get vaccines, maybe start preparing who you could take to lunch – people outside of work is fine – when that happens.

      My work is full of introverts, but we still have to collaborate and I’ve had many a non-work conversation with someone else who was feeling the need to talk to someone. I need a lot of focus time, but I like at least a small amount of friendly chatting, so I hear you!

    11. TPS reporter*

      we have a young professionals group in my organization that comprises people from all departments. Maybe you could try starting something or see if there is something like that going?

  6. Your Weird Uncle*

    Can I ask the commentariat: what, in your opinion, is the main purpose of a teenage job?

    Is it to gain valuable work experience? Learn how to take direction? Ready oneself for a potential career? Have more money, autonomy, responsibility?

    I have a 16 year old stepson at home who is reluctant to get a summer job. He has decided he wants to become a music producer or composer and his plan is to spend the summer making electronica and posting it online for sale. My husband has a friend in the music industry and mentioned they might be looking for a summer intern, which perked my stepson’s ears up and said that he would be interested in that. Problem is, that job hasn’t materialized and isn’t likely to, and now I worry that any other realistic job for a kid his age in the area we live in (mainly, bussing tables or stocking shelves) isn’t going to be ‘good enough’ for my stepson to consider doing.

    He isn’t motivated by material things or autonomy, so it’s hard to explain why (besides all of the reasons which WE think are good enough, like those listed above) he needs to work this summer. My husband and I discussed giving him more responsibility around the house if he isn’t working, but I honestly think he needs to learn how to take direction from someone outside of the house if we’re to set him up to launch an eventual independent career. It just feels like we’re setting him up for failure to launch, and having an unmotivated 16 year old surf You Tube and make music at our house all summer is going to seriously affect our marriage. (And I should note we only have him roughly 1/3 of the time, so unfortunately what we do in our house doesn’t carry much weight.)

    I guess I’m not really asking for reasons to convince him to look for a job (none are really going to appeal to him besides the music job), but really just curious to know what everyone’s thoughts are on those first few jobs. I know in my case, I absolutely hated my first job but it sure motivated me to find a career I didn’t despise!

    1. Watry*

      Definitely experience. I wasn’t able to work as a teenage or in college, and due to the ’08 recession I couldn’t find a job for AGES because I’d never had one.

      1. Ray Gillette*

        Speaking from experience as someone who did have a teenage job, it doesn’t necessarily help from that angle. When I transferred from community college in big city to a four year university in a much smaller town, I was excited because there was a franchise of the same crappy chain diner that I was currently working at in the smaller town. I figured it would be an easy way in because I already knew the menu and all the corporate practices. But that location had a different owner and I guess they decided my experience wasn’t worth much because they never called me in for an interview.

        I do value the actual experience I got at that job – I got to meet and work alongside people who I otherwise wouldn’t have met because we had very different backgrounds, I learned to prioritize when there were multiple high pressure tasks all coming at me at the same time, and I drastically improved my general social and customer service skills.

        1. Xenia*

          It’s not really the experience with a specific company that’s valuable, I think—it’s experience having a job, any job. It’s helpful for you, because then you can get an idea of ‘this is what I like, this is what I don’t like, here’s how to work with other people’ and partly so that you can put something on your resume. Even low end jobs are better than having nothing on the resume when you’re coming out of high school/college.

          1. Ray Gillette*

            Sure, and I also value the actual experience that I got on that job. I’m mostly bemoaning that “you have to have a job to get a job” is only the beginning, even having experience at the same company isn’t enough to land you so much as an interview some of the time. I haven’t even gotten into what happened on the rare occasion that I did get an interview because I don’t want to depress the OP about the stepson’s prospects.

    2. Wellesley*

      If he wants to work in music, he’s going to have to learn to work with (and for!) all kinds of people. A summer job at a grocery store or a restaurant is a safer place to figure that etiquette out than an industry he cares about.

      1. Wellesley*

        When I was trying to land internships I mentioned my summer job ALL THE TIME in interviews. “Tell me about a time you made a mistake and how you fixed it.” I worked in a bakery and the first time a customer asked me to write a message on a cake I did so badly I gave them a discount and wiped it off the best I could. And then I practiced writing in frosting whenever I had a free moment. Stuff like that in a real-world environment sounded way better than my “I did badly on a quiz in a class.”

      2. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, and if he wants to work in a creative field, then he should be out meeting people and gaining insight into other people’s lives for inspiration. His music will burn out if he doesn’t expand his circle into real life experiences.

      3. Threeve*

        I can usually tell whether or not someone has ever worked in customer service. It gives folks a baseline level of “always treat other people like they’re people” that those who have never worked customer service don’t always have.

      4. Your Weird Uncle*

        Oh absolutely! We mention all the skills he’s going to need, including soft people skills but also time management, financial skills, etc. Of course he knows better than we do. ;)

        2. Charlotte Lucas*

          It’s just good practice for being an adult.

          In my family, there was no question about it. We were expected to get jobs in high school. As we’re most kids I knew. (We needed them anyway for gas money & college.)

      5. Drago Cucina*

        Customer service, customer service, customer service. It applies in all fields. People forget the internal customer service between departments in a company. It’s an invaluable soft skill.

        When I was hiring for the public library I always preferred someone who had worked in fast food and no degree to someone who had an English degree and no “real world” work experience. Handling the person who is upset that “you” don’t know their email passwords is more likely than a deep conversation about *literature*. We encouraged education, including library school, but they brought an essential knowledge.

        1. Robin Ellacott*

          Agreed, and customer service work experience means they can demonstrate that they are ok with someone having expectations of them. I am leery of applicants with no work experience as I have had the bad luck (?) to see a large percentage of these respond poorly to feedback or to normal work expectations.

          I’m sure HE wouldn’t feel he needs that experience for those reasons, and his actual work may be just fine without it, but fairly or not employers in any field he chooses will want to see some evidence of work ethic.

          I can imagine this is even more the case in junior positions in a “glamourous” field when many applicants love the field but don’t like the day to day work they start with.

      6. OhGee*

        He’s also almost certainly going to need to hustle ALL THE TIME and to accept that he may need other work. Many of the touring musicians I was friends with in my early 20s worked in a local warehouse together, because the place was flexible about the time off they needed.

      7. ArtsNerd*

        The service industry is inextricably linked to the music industry. The people who manage and book clubs are almost always people who came up through restaurants and bars.

        If he wants to play live shows ever, working at a local restaurant is *great* networking.

    3. should i apply?*

      I know for me as a teenager the job was all about the money. If I wanted to buy gas or do anything fun with my friends I had to pay for it. You can be sure that at 16 I wasn’t thinking about work experience or readying myself for a career. However, once I got to college that was much more my focus.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Same. I wanted a car so my parents paid for it with cash (it was only a couple thousand dollars), but I had a payment plan to them for that “loan.” Then I used that car to get to work to make money to pay for the gas, any clothes I wanted, and fun things like going the movies. Ah…to think of a time when working 15 hours a week paid for so much…even on minimum wage…

        Then I got to college and had to pay for all my own expenses. Scholarship/student loans covered tuition, but my job waiting tables paid for rent, gas, utilities, and all the rest. Part of why I was good at my post-college sales job was because I was a good server!

      3. Smithy*

        For me it was a combination of money and freedom. Having a job meant I had use of the car and essentially ended my curfew. Keeping the job became material proof I was responsible, so I’d get the car and could then afford to do the things I wanted to.

        At the time, there were a lot of relatively low cost things that being able to buy on my own were greatly appealing (concert tickets, clothes, etc). That being said, with my brother – I know it was more effective when my parents told my brother that if he had a summer job, they’d buy him a new computer/game console or higher priced item at the end. Is there equipment, studio time, something that appeals to him in exchange for securing a job/summer internship?

        I get that if part of this is teaching responsibility than providing a bribe on top of the pay from the job may be counter-intuitive. But I can also see the side where if the value add is having the job, then I think it’s worth considering more concrete bribery.

      4. Joielle*

        Same here! Maybe if the selling-electronica-online plan doesn’t make money he’ll be more inclined to get a job.

    4. YTW*

      “Convince” him to get a job? Most of your post is about him needing to learn workplace norms…and you’re not exercising parental authority at all. He’s going to think he can cajole a boss into letting him do whatever he wants.

      TELL him what he’s going to do, because when he lives in your house he abides by your rules. That will prepare him for the working world.

      1. CCSF*

        Yeah. With my 16YO it was a matter of “if you don’t have a job by X date, your phone is turned off/the WiFi password is changed/I’m taking the video card out of your desktop.” He found himself a job.

        He’s not a bad kid, but he isn’t a fan of change and will never ever seek it out. FWIW now that he’s 18 he’s one of the most valuable and reliable employees at his fast food job and actually missed working when we forced him to stay home several months at the height of the pandemic.

          1. Your Weird Uncle*

            Yep, he does, and he agrees with me! We’ve made it clear that getting a job is an expectation this summer, not a choice, and if he doesn’t find a job we will find him volunteer opportunities. But again, the question wasn’t about how to convince him to find a job (we know that he won’t be convinced), it was more because I was curious to know what benefits people find in their summer jobs and whether our approach might be too heavy-handed.

            1. LDN Layabout*

              I’m going to say that these things will always have less weight coming from the parent who has less custody, when it’s not a 50-50 situation. Especially if it’s the case where he’s only around for school breaks? (Unless I’m misinterpreting the ‘whole summer’ comment).

              And you’re very comfortable with saying here that if you can’t get your stepson out of the house over the summer that it will ‘affect your marriage’. If your stepson has picked that vibe up from you, there’s another reason why he might not care about you or your husband’s opinion.

            2. Ramona Q*

              “If he doesn’t find a job we will find him volunteer opportunities”: he can and should find them for himself, no? Especially if your goal is to get him to take on more responsibility.

            3. LKW*

              The biggest benefits I got from my pre-career jobs:
              1. Making some pocket money
              2. Learning about different places to work/businesses
              3. Making friends who didn’t go to my school
              4. Getting a view of people who were not like me; they didn’t live in my neighborhood, had different experiences and different perspectives.

              At a minimum, it will teach him how to think in terms of how many hours of work will it take to buy the things he wants.

            4. TiffIf*

              But what is the consequence if he doesn’t find a job or doesn’t utilize a volunteer opportunity?

              You said he isn’t motivated by material things or autonomy–except EVERYONE is when it comes down to “do I have the resources I need to live” but usually a teen may not see what is being provided to them.

              So, are you providing him a phone? Make it a rule that he has to contribute $X per month to the phone bill. If he doesn’t, no phone service. That is material motivation.

              Are you providing an allowance? Do you buy him what he says he needs that may be more “wants” than “needs”? If there’s something he wants (the right equipment to produce the electronica music he wants to do?) then let him know he needs to save up for it and buy it himself.

              I never had an allowance growing up–not even for chores (you were simply expected to help around the house). If I wanted anything above and beyond basic necessities, I had to save up birthday/Christmas gift money or work. I started working for my mother’s business (she cleans offices and houses) when I was like 12–I would help clean an office that she had contracted with and she would pay me $25 per job (the office was small so about 2-3 hours of cleaning work which breaks down to more than $8 per hour–more than minimum wage isn’t bad for mid-90s teen unskilled labor).

              My parents couldn’t afford to contribute to my college funds either–so my senior year I took an after school part time job and saved up enough to pay my rent the first year of college.

              EVERYONE is motivated by material means you just have to make it clear what you will and won’t provide for him and what he is expected to provide for himself.

              1. TiffIf*

                I do see below where you replied that his mother provides a lot and you don’t

                Yeah it is going to be difficult to get him motivated if he isn’t seeing consequences to not earning his own money/finding volunteer work.

      3. Here we go again*

        Tell him nobody besides the typical fast food retail, lawn mowing jobs are incredibly reluctant to hire someone without any work experience.

        1. Juneybug*

          I agree! For my Master’s program, I was told repeatedly to get a government (state or city agency) internship – otherwise, it will be almost impossible to get a state job, even with my degree. I needed to show “experience in a state job”, not the previous 30 years of job experience I had. It was odd at the numerous interviews where they talked more about my internship experience than any other part of my work history.
          Few suggestions –
          1. Could he have two part time jobs? One as a composer making electronica and the other working outside of the house?
          2. Could he find a mentor in the music business? Often teenagers will listen to anyone other than their parents.
          3. If he doesn’t get experience now, when will he? Does he realize he will be behind his peers with their work experience?
          4. If you and your spouse decide not to push the summer job, have him read books on music, business management, human relations, etc.
          Good luck! Raising teenagers is hard.

      4. Person from the Resume*

        I agree with this. I don’t know the dynamics of your co-parenting relationship so you may or may not be able to do so without co-parent support.

        The only reason a teenager might want a job is spending money to spend on whatever he wants. Other than that immaterial dream internship, teen jobs are not going to sound like fun. I suspect teen aren’t thinking long term skills and even the few that are might not envision how a minimum wage jog gets them there.

        OTOH at least your kid is ambitious albeit unrealistic. He’s trying to create something and sell it. That’s a hard life, but it’s probably better than wanting to lay around all day and play video games. A long time ago, I read my summers away. There were worse things I could have been doing, but it didn’t really set me up for future jobs and job interviews. I was painfully shy. The only thing that would have gotten me out working was my parents making me since books from the library were free I wasn’t in need of much money.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I also was a shy introvert. My first job was at a library, & I loved it! My later jobs were in food service & retail, which really helped me learn to interact with a lot of people. (And… Discounts! Free food! There are some benefits to the typical teen jobs.)

        2. Troutwaxer*

          “OTOH at least your kid is ambitious albeit unrealistic. He’s trying to create something and sell it. That’s a hard life, but it’s probably better than wanting to lay around all day and play video games.”

          I’m kind of going two ways on this. On one hand older folks like us are all about a particular life path: get a job in high-school, go to college, get a degree, then do the work your degree entitles you to – and we know that still works! However, the Internet has changed some of that out of recognition, and the most important thing it’s changed is the chance that some kid can start learning very high-level artistic/technical/social skills at a very young age, so I’m going to play devil’s advocate here.

          Maybe the way to go with this is to say “sure, sell your music online, but I want some transparency, so I’m going to keep track of the hours you actually spend working on stuff, and I’ll listen to the music you’ve made, and once a week you’ll show me your online portals and we’ll see how you’re doing. If you’re not making at least minimum wage we’ll reconsider.”

          Also consider that the kid might be learning social-media skills, production skills, online social skills, possibly some HTML/CSS level coding skills, and some skills about selling himself and his product online. Chances are very good that the kid is a digital native and you aren’t, so – and this is where some real parental judgment is required – if the kid is accomplishing stuff and being productive I’d leave him alone. And I’d keep in mind that if he’s working really hard at it and he fails, he’ll still learn some important lessons!

          Lastly, if by chance your stepson does have a good-and-legal Internet hustle going on and you screw it up, you’ll have destroyed your relationship with the kid permanently.

          1. Troutwaxer*

            Oh, and an important P.S. to my devil’s advocacy – don’t give him any money if he wants to go this way. One way or another, let him see very clearly what his current skills are worth.

          2. Student Affairs Sally*

            So much this! I feel like so many of the comments here (including OP) are coming from the perspective that if this kid doesn’t get a job THIS summer he’s doing immense damage to his future and/or is just going to be lazy forever. I didn’t get a job until I was 18 and I turned out okay! I have a semi-decent-paying job where I get to tell 18 year olds what to do now! (Not really, but kinda). There is value in working from an early age, but there’s also a lot of value in letting the kid explore his interests and find out what he’s good at and what could be marketable job skills that are still creative but maybe a little more “useful” or employable than making music. I think setting expectations and holding him accountable, but letting him explore, is a perfect balance for a 16 year old, especially in a complex blended family situation like this where there may be some authority struggles.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              All of this.

              And for the record, I didn’t get my first job until my freshman year in college, and I also turned out okay, lol.

      5. Esmeralda*

        Yup. Anytime my son did not want to do something that I felt was important/necessary, I told him this: “First of all, because I said so. Second…(reasons)” When he was a tween and older, I told him “Because reasons. And also, because I said so.” LOL. Eventually he’d interrupt me and say, “are we at Because I Said So yet?”

      6. LTL*

        “He’s going to think he can cajole a boss into letting him do whatever he wants.”

        I get where you’re coming from but this is quite the jump. He’s a teenager, not a small child, it’s just as likely (if not more so) that he can read where and when he’s able to exert his views.

        I also feel that it’s easy to say that you should just order him as the parent, but the family dynamics have been built up over 16 years. I imagine if it was so simple as “you live under my roof,” Your Weird Uncle would’ve tried that already.

      7. NeverComments*

        Yeah I, like many teenagers, didn’t have a choice of getting a job. I needed to pay for gas, insurance, going out with friends, etc.

      8. Mademoiselle Sugar Lump*

        Yes. My mom was like “You aren’t going to sit around the house all summer, you have to volunteer somewhere full time or get a job.” It wasn’t negotiable. She had reasons like it would be good experience but those were beside the point.

        For me there was also the appeal of making money. I didn’t get a big allowance and there were a million things I wanted. It’s hard to understand a teen or anyone who doesn’t share this!

    5. Dust Bunny*

      I needed money, but I was already a kid who was good at taking direction and doing things I didn’t necessarily want to do, on somebody else’s time table and by somebody else’s priorities. I know a did a few dumb things in my early jobs but nothing big: No waltzing in late or arguing about uniforms or whatever.

      But, yeah, if he’s thinking that producing music means he can run the show, he’s in for a surprise. Even I know you need a lot of social and negotiating skills to cut it in entertainment.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Yes, I totally agree. We mention all the time all of the other relateable skills he’s going to need. He of course doesn’t think that’s true – he thinks he’s going to make all the money he wants just by putting his music online and the masses are going to give him enough to pay the bills. Honestly, I highly suspect he is going to live with his mother for several years after high school.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I just read the Roadies section of SYSK’s book, and if you want a music theme, it’s a really good argument for taking a job as an in for an industry. (Never knew how many musicians started as Roadies.)

          I bet there are other music-related jobs he could look into. For example, local radio (or TV) stations often hire for the summer.

        2. Aly_b*

          In that case it might be eye opening for him to fully dedicate a summer to trying it. If he makes a mint, then hey, great. If he makes very little, it might give him some motivation to make some cash or a sense that it doesn’t come easy.

          But you mention that part of it is needing to get him out of the house for you guys, and I think that’s 100% fair and is something you should straight up tell him – by 16 isn’t he old enough to hear that you all need some space from each other during the days? I would calculate into that the weirdness of this past year and any pandemic worries he (or you) might have about him becoming a front line worker when it’s optional. He may need some grace after the year we’ve all just had.

          1. LDN Layabout*

            As per the OP, they only have the kid around 30% of the time anyway. Plus he seems to be happy whiling away part of his time in his room. How much more space do they need/

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            If my parent only had me 30% of the time and told me they needed space from me just being in my room working on music, I would draw some conclusions from that, and they would not be good for our relationship. (One of those conclusions would be that if I lived with them full-time, being gone 70% of the time would not be “enough” for them.)

            That said, my mom made me and my sister have jobs year-round, not just in the summer, and it was very good for us. I support expecting teenagers to work. Maybe not in a pandemic, but generally. But it’s got to come from the parent, not the stepparent (and if it’s really being pushed by the latter, the kid is going to know and it’s going to affect their relationship with both). When they already only have him a third of the time, I’m not sure these are ideal conditions for succeess.

    6. Kimmybear*

      Purpose: it depends. I’ve known teenagers who worked to help their parents pay rent and others to save for college. Should the purpose drive the job or should whatever job he can get determine what he can learn from it? Reality in your area may be that there are no jobs for teenagers because unemployment is so high. Is he willing to mow lawns, rake leaves, or babysit? Maybe the purpose is to learn how to negotiate, network, and advocate for himself since those are important in any field.

    7. No Tribble At All*

      I was very motivated by cash money, but experience, independence, and customer service are all really useful to learn. I still remember dealing with my first unreasonable customer and the knowledge that you can’t please everyone is very helpful.

    8. anon24*

      Honestly, I learned so much in my teenage job. Not just the usual, responsibility, how to be on time, how work forces work, so on and so on, but how adulthood works, how to talk to many different people, how to be polite to rude people even when I was exhausted and they were the 400th person I’d talked to that day. Working my job made me a much rounder person and I had co-workers with so many different life experiences that opened me up to many different world views. I was also lucky that in my case I had a good boss who saw that while I was shy and didn’t take charge, I had the ability to. He taught me how to have confidence at work and when to step up and take authority of situations instead of letting things slide for someone else to take care of and this is a skill that is still getting mentioned during performance reviews in my current job.

    9. ThatGirl*

      For me, it was money and autonomy, and I think it also gave me valuable life and work experience, and the ability to deal with difficult customers, managers, etc. But I was motivated to do it. I was a waitress at Chuck E Cheese, a clerk at a video store, and in college worked at a furniture/home goods store and did some office work.

      I have a 16-year-old brother in law (yeah, he was a surprise) and I wonder if he’s going to be getting a job at all in the next year or two. He isn’t even motivated to get his driver’s license, and does diddly squat around the house, but he does have extracurricular activities (sports and marching band) that at least give him responsibility and the ability to take direction.

    10. Ash*

      I’m sure you must be giving him money for eating out, gas/transportation, hobbies he wants to pursue, random stuff he wants to buy. Tell him that all that “fun money” he now needs to earn himself, or at least a portion of it. If he doesn’t earn it, he doesn’t get it from you. That should light a fire under him.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Actually, we don’t give him money for anything! He’s my stepson and everything else he wants he gets from his mother. She’s…not on board with having him have to work for anything.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I think this is the crux of your problem, then. Until both parents are on the same page about this, I doubt you will have much success. Your stepson will learn the hard way… or he will not.

          1. Your Weird Uncle*

            Oh yes, you’re right about that. We try our hardest and I’m glad that my husband agrees with me but it is like fighting an uphill battle.

          1. LDF*

            He’s 16! I don’t understand why it’s so crucial to force him to join the ratrace. Let him have summer vacation for another year or two, dang.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Right. My mom didn’t allow me to work while I was in high school because she wanted me to be a kid without responsibilities for as long as possible (plus, I had summer homework for my AP classes that had to be done, and that was a lot – most of my classmates didn’t have jobs either).

              1. Clisby*

                I wasn’t allowed to work except for babysitting, which gave me extra money but didn’t require any sort of fixed-time commitment. (That is, I could work this weekend but not next weekend; I could take 3 jobs one week and none the next – it was up to me.) My brothers didn’t work while in high school except for having a lawn-cutting business, but again, it was entirely up to them how many jobs they took. My parents let them use the family lawn mower, but 1/3 of every job payment went into the replace-the-lawn-mower fund.

        3. Smithy*

          If his mom is going to patch any of your deprivations – I strongly recommend bribery as a tactic instead. Maybe it’s around purchasing something that would motivate him, or maybe it’s about time to travel to visit something.

          I do think that there comes a point where if the “sticks” aren’t working, there are carrots out there that don’t immediately fall into the “we’ll spoil the child!” trap.

        4. Just no*

          My family was pretty poor, and I worked because I just needed money for all of the things teenagers want/need money for. I don’t think I would have felt a need to get a job otherwise. (And, honestly, I don’t think it was necessarily good for me to have a teenage job because I worked 30+ hours a week even during the school year, and I was absolutely exhausted.)

          It sounds like he has no incentive whatsoever to get a job. If his mom isn’t on board with him getting a job and she’s giving him money, it’s really difficult for me to imagine that he is going to listen to arguments about learning soft skills or anything like that.

        5. Malarkey01*

          I know this wasn’t your question and don’t want to seem like piling on, but you don’t give your 16 year old any money? Not for movies, meals with friends, hobbies? I think there’s definite value in working and having to earn fun money, but not to give any money to a teen seems a little much. That coupled with not wanting him around the house all the time (which I get I have a teen and we’ve been in pandemic home for a year but still having kids around in the summer is a fact of life), and already having only 30% custody.
          At 16, actual custody arrangements starts to diminish and the kids become the ones deciding who they spend time with.
          Unlike when we were teens, the majority of teens don’t work now and finding work is hard for this demographic even when really motivated. I think you might want to take a step back and think about what’s possible and practical for your specific parenting arrangement. I really mean this kindly and non-judgy, just as perspective on how the teen job market has changed in 20 years and the complications of teens and custody. Best of luck!

          1. Disco Janet*

            I agree with the comments about not wanting him around the house comments, but not about the teen job market. I’m sure it depends on the area, but I’m a high school teacher in a suburban area, and over half of my students have part time jobs.

        6. Blackcat*

          “She’s…not on board with having him have to work for anything.”
          Well… then your husband needs to have a clear conversation with him and his ex and explain what types of support he will offer after child support is no longer required.

          My parents were “not on board with having [my brother] have to work for anything.” Having that attitude when my brother was 16 lead to having it when he was 20, then 24, and by the time they tried to change, he was SUPER entitled. My mom rolls over on everything, and now my parents have a 38 year old “child” completely dependent on them at home.

    11. Kramerica Industries*

      I remember that my motivator when I was a teenager was that I needed experience to actually do what I wanted to in the future. It was framed to me where I wasn’t just stocking shelves, I was demonstrating that I knew how to prioritize and be organized. I wanted to work in advertising, so the question motivating me was: Who are advertisers at fancy agency going to hire? Someone with absolutely no experience, or someone who has had jobs where they’ve built up some skills?

      I think that it helps if you can relate summer jobs back to the music industry. You’re right that learning to take direction is a good skill to have, particularly if you spin it to relate to collaboration. I’m not in the industry, but I would imagine that music is all about collaboration.

    12. matcha123*

      Hmm…In my case, my “teenage job” started with delivering newspapers in elementary school and moved onto working at a library in high school and through college. The reasons were simple: my family needed money. I also wanted money, and I could use some of my paycheck to buy things for myself. Most of it went to paying bills, however.

      For many of my upper-middle class classmates, getting a job between 10th and 11th grade was just something to jot onto a college application to show that they didn’t just sit at home and study. Oh, no. They worked! (Over the summer, at internships set-up by their wealthy parents.)

      I never got an allowance growing up (poor), but if work is available to him then just don’t give him an allowance. Don’t pay for his stuff. And if he’s fine with that, then so be it. Let him fail at his first job. My assumption is that you guys are comfortable enough that if he’s fired you’re not going to end up homeless or without electricity and he’s not going to end up on the streets. When he graduates high school he either enrolls in college or he gets a job to chip in with paying for electricity, rent, etc.

    13. Here we go again*

      1. To learn how to have a job. To show up on time and ready to work. How to take instruction constructive criticism and work with coworkers and customers. How to act professional.
      2. How to fail or screw up. Without consequences of not being able to pay rent or loose health insurance for your family.
      3. Things they don’t teach you in school or your parents don’t teach you but should like how to use a cash register, or clean a kitchen or a bathroom.
      4. Humility.
      5. How to manage your own money.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        6. How to do your own taxes. (I had to do my own, & it turned out to be a good lesson.)

        1. Here we go again*

          +1 They totally need to make personal finance and accounting mandatory in high school. Not everyone needs trig or calculus, but everyone could use a class in personal finance.

        2. Another JD*

          The first time I did my own taxes in high school and found out I owed money because my parents claimed me as a dependent, I was SO pissed!

          1. TiffIf*

            if you’re in high school you’re usually still a minor so there is no choice except to be claimed as a dependent…right? Unless you are talking about once you were 18 but still in high school?

            The year I turned 18 was the one and only time I filed taxes where my parents claimed me as a dependent.

            1. Natalie*

              You’re correct that it’s not actually a choice whether or not someone is a dependent. There are specific tests but if someone meets them, it’s not supposed to be optional.

              Age is less relevant than people think – if your parents are providing the majority of your support and you live with them (or live with them when you’re not away at college), you’re a dependent no matter how old you are.

    14. Anon-mama*

      I had a nice first job working in a Hallmark in high school and then at a Barnes and Noble in college. I’m a full-time library paraprofessional now. My twin hated his jobs as a grocery bagger and then bookstore barista. He took more time to finish university and was really unmotivated until getting a job in computer information systems (his longtime interest). He did the earlier ones because he had no choice–he (and I) were responsible for half our car insurance cost and were not allowed to drive without paying up. When he returned home to the nest in his twenties, and a lot less authority from my parents, I guess there wasn’t a drive to just take anything.

      So I think those early jobs taught responsibility, accountability, time management, team player, and career interests or dislikes. They gave a work history. And importantly (and I know you’re not looking for reasons), it enabled us to pay for stuff we wanted because within reason, my parents started cutting us off from allowance.

    15. WellRed*

      I had a really hard time landing my first entry level job after high school (put off college for a few years) because I had almost zero work experience.

    16. CatCat*

      I was motivated by money. Worked at some crappy jobs, but it was exciting for me to earn a paycheck.

      Sounds like your stepson may have an entrepreneurial streak if he’s planning to create music and sell it. Any programs or groups in your area that might support budding entrepreneurs? Might be an unconventional teen path, but could be very motivating and help him learn skills.

    17. Ashley*

      In addition to the money factor teenage jobs are also great for helping with time management / schedule priorities. My super professional college internship was definitely helped by my teenage work experience. Plus there is something really satisfying about buying stuff for yourself that your parents wouldn’t. Household rules also required me to pay for my insistence after the first year. To me it is about increasing responsibility in a controlled manner so you may flame out less spectacularly later when you are on your own.

    18. Qwerty*

      Teenage jobs teach a lot about the basics of the working world, being accountable to someone who isn’t a parent/teacher, working on a team(ish), and being exposed to more people/different working styles. If your stepson isn’t interested in a job, could he find an organization to volunteer with where he has to show up regularly, follow a work schedule, be assigned tasks, etc. I know when I was a teen my parents made it a requirement during the summer that I had something else going on – if I wasn’t going to get a job or volunteer, then my “job” was housework. I also needed the money for college – my parents told each of us how much they could contribute and we were responsible for the rest and for coming up with a finance and education plan to get us into a career (with a backup plan if the first career was risky. The advice was we free to get a degree we loved but we should also get a degree that could a job and hopefully those would be the same.)

      I’ve done a lot of hiring/training of interns and college grads and the more successful ones had previously held an unglamorous job or did a lot of volunteer work. Whenever we had someone who had never held a job before, they were generally terrible to manage, because we had to work through basic things like “sometimes you have to do tasks you don’t like” and “you have to show up to work on time”. They were also the ones constantly complaining about pay and work conditions, despite them being pretty great (Interns were salaried but it came out to $25 an hour, had free housing a block from the office, free meals, free bus pass in a city with lots of public transit, free tickets to major festivals/events in the city, plus other perks and worked 30-40hrs a week, most of which was an investment in their skills rather than getting much benefit for us)

      Covid obviously complicates everything! So there might need to be a need to be creative or flexible. Can your friend in the music industry talk to him about how most musicians have other jobs to support their music career? Or limit the hours during which he can play music if it isn’t something that can be contained in headphones?

      1. Pond*

        $25/hr, free housing, and all the other free stuff!?! That’s really REALLY good for an internship. I’m curious where and what type of company/internship this is.

        1. Qwerty*

          Tech / Finance. This was a few years ago in finance when a bunch of firms got into an arms race with recruiting tech interns. The top tier engineers were all entering their senior years with full time offers after graduation, so all the companies invested in junior-level internships, then sophomore-level internships to just try to get people in the pipeline.

          It was in a big city, so the interns would stay in college dorms and eat breakfast/dinner there, while lunch was served at the office. They may have actually made more per hour – I just remember it becoming higher than what we offered for a entry-level developer. And the interns complaining about their wages to our receptionist, who made much less (but above market value)!

    19. LDN Layabout*

      Eh, I got a job at 15 and it was only because I wanted more money. I don’t think it’s a /need/ for a teenager, who hasn’t finished secondary education, to get a job unless they want to.

      Once they’ve finished that stage in life? 100% it’s time for that first job. I wasn’t expected to work through university, but if I hadn’t gone/during the long summer break I was expected to be doing /something/ career related, either a job or an internship.

    20. Picard*

      I got my first job at 16 washing dishes so that I would have my own money and be able to make decisions about how I spent it. Does he get an allowance? If so, maybe reconsider that?

    21. Zephy*

      I think, for a teenager, the purpose of a job is mainly for the experience of having had A Job and been paid to Do Something. I graduated from college having never had a “real job” – I had work-study jobs on campus, which were “real jobs” insofar as I had to be at a place at a time and someone told me what to do and paid me for my time doing those things. But, because they were on-campus jobs and tied to the academic year, my resume looked a bit patchwork, showing multiple apparently-unrelated positions that all lasted 8 months with a 4-month gap between them.

      If he’s really interested in a career in music, though, a summer where he’s free to sequence beats to his heart’s content might actually be better for him than bussing tables or stocking shelves. For any art career, the more time you have to get all of your bad art out of your system, the sooner you can start making good art.

    22. Emilitron*

      It’s his first opportunity to be treated as an adult. Most teens only have a few categories of relationships: teacher/student, parent/child (or similar generational “auntie”/child), peer/peer friendships, sometimes teen/kiddo babysitting type responsibility. But even when it’s a teen summer job and employers do treat teen workers as inexperienced temps, the boss/employee relationship is very different from teacher/student, and the employee/customer relationship is brand new.

    23. Jellyfish*

      I worry that any other realistic job for a kid his age in the area we live in (mainly, bussing tables or stocking shelves) isn’t going to be ‘good enough’ for my stepson to consider doing.

      I had a bit of that attitude as a kid too. I knew I could do cooler or more interesting jobs and felt a bit entitled to them. Fast food was the reality though – that’s the only place I could get hired with no experience.

      I’d never had admitted it at the time, but it did a lot to teach me that food and retail workers have dreams and skills like anyone else. Some people like working those jobs, and they’re good at them. Some people work where they can because bills must be paid. I definitely learned to consider other people’s time and labor a lot more valuable than I likely would have if my early jobs were fancy and “important” by my 16yo standards. It’s good life experience.

    24. Campfire Raccoon*

      I’m trying to steer my 15.5 yo to being a life guard this summer. My main reasons as a parent are: experience, get him out of the house, socialize, exercise, life skills, learning teamwork and how to take instruction, and money.

      When I was 16 I was in an unstable household. So my motivations were: money for college, having somewhere to be outside of the house, fun, and my coworkers. I also had a super duper hard-core crush on a fellow ice-cream slinger which resulted in many overtime hours, lol.

      1. Cascadia*

        I worked as a lifeguard over the summer – it was the best job for a teenager! Outside all day, lots of fun with other teens, earning some money, it was great!

        1. Filosofickle*

          Being a lifeguard was the best! I was a swimmer so it was an obvious summer job. I loved it, and it even paid well, comparatively. It had elements of grunt work (like cleaning bathrooms) and customer service that were good to learn without being all I had to do.

          I don’t know what I would have done otherwise. I definitely did not want to work retail/food, but they may not have taken me anyway because those jobs went to kids that worked all year round. (My family preferred us working only summers.) I guess I would have figured something out, because a summer job wasn’t something I saw as optional.

      2. Hi there*

        My kid is about to be 15.5 also, thanks for leading me to do the math! Mine is going to be a counselor in training at a scout camp.

    25. OyHiOh*

      For me, it was about earning money for my piano lessons so maybe, there’s a course somewhere (even through Coursera) that he’s motivated to take – specific industry/technical skill, perhaps – and the deal is, you’ll pay a piece of the fee, but he needs a job to pay for the rest.

      Check and see if there are any day camps in the theater/arts/culture industry in your area, and if he could work or volunteer as an instructor or councilor. Those might be close enough to “music industry” to catch his attention.

      If he thinks he can make enough selling electronica to cover his personal wants and skills training isn’t enough to motivate him, volunteering might be another reasonable option to get him out of the house and under the direction of a professional. As with “a job,” it’ll put skills, experience, and a supervisor on his resume and he might be able to find something industry specific to do.

    26. Keener*

      I think the value of a teenage job completely depends upon what the young person would be doing if they didn’t have the job. I personally didn’t get a summer job until I’d graduated high school. However, I was heavily involved with Girl Guides (in Canada) and spent my teenage summers planning and executing wilderness expeditions with peers, and volunteering at camps for younger girls. So while I wasn’t “working” I was gaining a lot of life skills and experience I could talk about in a cover letter/job interview.

    27. AllTheBirds*

      Learning how to manage in the adult world. Understanding what is expected of you and trying to live up to it. Developing crucial skills (managing time, courtesy to others, taking responsibility).

      Almost no one gets a first/summer job doing exactly what they love. Maybe he’ll learn that the world won’t hand him just what he wants. He’s competing with his cohort. He may need to learn skills to help him stand out — all of which will help him as he matures.

      1. AllTheBirds*

        Oh, and no reason he can’t have a summer job AND do his music. Which I’m sure you know ;)

    28. Cascadia*

      All of the above! I started working at 16 (legally) and teenage jobs can also be tons of fun! I did lifeguarding, worked at summer camps, taught swim lessons, and worked retail at a shoe store. In most of those jobs, everyone else I was working with was also a teenager and we had a blast. Plus, making money is nice. He’s also FAR more likely to get what I’m guessing will be highly competitive jobs/internships in the music business if he has some work experience. He can get a job at a record shop, or a music store, or teach music lessons to neighborhood kiddos, if he really wants to focus on the music aspect of things. But obviously any job will teach you good solid work skills: scoop ice cream at the local ice cream shop, sell burgers at McDonalds, bag groceries, work as a summer camp counselor, become a starbucks barista – many options available! I just heard a story on NPR this morning that restaurants are gearing up for a big return to normal and outdoor eating this summer and are already struggling to find employees to return to work. They especially need dishwashers, etc.

    30. LDF*

      I don’t see why a teen HAS to get a job if money is not something they want more of. We already have to be part of the capitalist grind for so long, I don’t think we have to go around inflicting it on 16 year olds. Time not spent working is not wasted time. If he has free summers, good, he can bond with friends and work on hobbies! Free time is a precious gift that he may not have again in this amount until retirement. I don’t understand why having a teen around is going to affect his marriage, or why he needs to learn to “take direction”. Let him be a teen.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That’s a pretty privileged view, unfortunately. Nearly everyone needs to learn how to get along with others in a workplace, and working service jobs (retail, food service etc) often helps you develop empathy both for customers and for workers themselves. There are a lot of life skills in there along with the work-related ones.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          Sure, but it’s not a /need/ to get that at 15/16 years old.

          I would say your late teens/early 20s are time enough to do that, unless there’s a need for the money, either a true need (helping support the household) or a parent created need (basic or no allowance and the kid wants more).

          1. Natalie*

            Yes, there seems to be an assumption in some of these comments that it’s a binary between “get a summer job at 15” and “don’t work until after graduating college” and that’s just not the case. Plenty of people don’t work in high school but get work experience in college – on-campus jobs, co-op education, summer internships, etc.

            1. LDN Layabout*

              That’s some really nasty ones about having the boy’s mother support him or living in her basement, HE’S SIXTEEN YEARS OLD.

        2. Spearmint*

          It is privileged, but if you have the privilege to so, I agree, why work as a teen if you don’t have to? I didn’t work until college but I had plenty of empathy for customers and workers as a teen. I think that can be learned in many ways. As for getting along with others? You can learn that in school and extracurriculars.

          I guess I’m skeptical of this idea that working a McJob as a teen is a super important learning experience. Among my friends from high school and college, I don’t see any correlation between their life success or personal character and whether they worked through school or not. Most high schoolers don’t have summer jobs these days, anyway, and it’s been that way for the past decade or so and they seem to be doing fine.

          1. LDF*

            Especially since OP was like “well I had a teen job and I HATED it” like… how is that a good reason to force the kid to get a bad teen job? My first jobs were in freshman year of college and I didn’t hate them because I had a lot more choice than a high school kid would (one job required midnight availability and the other was a campus job). Hating your job isn’t actually a necessary life experience. Most of this thread is so sad, it’s like well one day you’ll have to be abused by customers or exploited by your boss so better get a head start on that!

      2. LilyP*

        Yeah, I never had a job as a teen (spent my summers on camp, family travel, and friends/reading/relaxing) and I turned out fine. There are a lot of benefits to a first job, but loads of kids don’t work until they’re out of high school and manage somehow. If there’s boundaries or house rules you need to set around space/noise that can be independent of him getting a job or not!

    31. Esmeralda*

      I don’t know if this applies to your situation, but we were expected to contribute to our college expenses — and if we did not plan on attending college, we were expected to contribute to household expenses at the same level as we would have if we’d gone to college. That was a non-negotiable in our family. Colleges expect this as well, there is always a piece of the financial aid pie for the student’s contribution.

    32. Hi there*

      I’ve been thinking about this as we plan out our summer. I agree with the goals around earning money, gaining experience, etc. For my part I wanted kiddo (15) to have something to show for the summer and to be deliberate about the choices he was making.

      1. Coenobita*

        My family had a rule that once you were in high school, you had to do *something* structured and out of the house over the summer. It could be paid work, volunteering, taking classes, whatever, as long as you had to make a commitment and follow through with it. (My brother and I both had jobs because we liked earning money and, at least in my case, there was a lot of social cachet attached to working – and we also lived in a tourist town that was swimming with summer jobs. But our parents were clear that we could choose something other than paid work.) Anyway, I wonder if something like that would work for your family? It could give your 15yo some agency over their plans.

        1. Spearmint*

          I second this! My parents had a similar policy, and it was much motivating for me. Doing nothing all summer is not good for a teen’s well-being, but that doesn’t mean they have to fill their time at a McJob.

        2. Hi there*

          That is pretty much how our conversation went. For a while it was looking like a math class for the summer plus volunteering and fun at the pool but now kiddo is going to be a counselor in training at a scout camp.

    33. furby officianado*

      Experience is, actually, important. Not just so that you can get other, “better” jobs later, but for other formative reasons as well. The type of people who have never worked a day in their life are not the type of people who understand the needs of others. If the other types of local jobs aren’t “good enough”, I’d ask him why. All jobs are valuable. All work is valuable. Someone needs to do the job. We are also still living in a timeframe where college is becoming more expensive. Even if he isn’t motivated by material things, it can only benefit him to begin making money and saving it.

      Aside from working outside of the home, if he doesn’t already have a decent amount of responsibilities inside the home, I’d ramp that up right now. Does he know how to cook decently? Does he see mess and know how and when to clean it up? In two years he will be an adult. Will he be a responsible roommate/romantic partner who carries his own weight?

    34. meyer lemon*

      For me, I was motivated by saving up money for school. I didn’t get a huge amount of meaningful work experience out of cleaning motel rooms or bagging groceries–in fact, I normalized a lot of abusive behaviour from managers, which didn’t serve me too well in my early office jobs.

      If the money part isn’t important to you or your stepson, you could encourage him to pursue volunteer work instead, since he’s more likely to be able to find opportunities that are more meaningful to him, and he can get a feel for what it’s like to do various types of work. There may be a local arts organization that he’d be interested in.

    35. Lindsay v*

      You can’t come out of college/high school and into the working world never having a single job. You’ll be at a huge disadvantage.

    36. Rational Lemming*

      Honestly, I didn’t *need* money when I got my first job – I was 16 and didn’t have bills. But I did get a job because all of my friends couldn’t hang out because they were working! And they had money to do things that they didn’t need to ask their parents for (summer pass to Six Flags is one that I specifically remember!).
      Probably depends on his friend group – but maybe you could ask what his friends are up to and ask what he’s going to do while everyone else is off at work?

    37. Tiger*

      For me, it was having money. I know you said that his mother gives him money, but that was the point of my job. Having my own money for shopping, when I went out with friends, and ultimately, paying for college. Jobs didn’t become about anything other than money until my sophomore year of college.

      1. Just no*

        Same here, Tiger. I didn’t think of a job for any other purpose besides money until, I think, my last summer of college. I come from a poor, working-class background, and a job just equaled money to me for a long time.

    38. the cat's ass*

      Got my first job at 15 to save $ for college-between my two part time jobs and scholarships, it was the only way i was going to get there! So I was REALLY motivated. I worked in a bakery and a small nursing home and both jobs prepared me for the adult world in ways college certainly didn’t-dealing with customers. Dealing with difficult customers. Learning to bake on an industrial scale, which was a trip. Learning patience while walking someone slowly to the bathroom. Feeding someone who can’t feed themselves. Learning from the nurses (yes, i became one, so it was excellent prep for my career). Both jobs were really hard and paid minimum wage, but i enjoyed them both quite a lot and continued to ‘fill in’ when home from school for years.

      I hope he gets the music job or something similar because it’s not enough to just take music and post it on Youtube-you’ve got a lot of other business you need to do in the music industry as well.

    39. Spearmint*

      So, one bit of important context here is that it’s no longer the norm for teens to work summer jobs. Last I looked into it, only 1/3 of teens work in high school. There are also fewer jobs willing to hire teens than in the past, especially in a bad economy like we have now. This is a big change from even the world older millennials grew up in. I’m not going to tell you not to encourage your stepson to get a summer job, but I think it’s unrealistic to require it.

      Speaking personally, I didn’t work until college, and I had mixed experiences with part time college work. One was a tutoring job and I think that was very good for me. It boosted my self esteem and helped me learn about the importance of appearances at work. The other was a food delivery job, and I hated it with a passion (I have social anxiety) and quit after only a month. I can’t say I got anything positive from that second job.

      To be honest the most important things I learned about work in my teens and early-20s came from values my parents instilled in me and internships in my field.

      1. Ray Gillette*

        This is a good point – more and more of those “teen” jobs are now held by adults, so they are in shorter supply than they used to be. And especially now – I know we’re all sick to death (har har) of plague talk, but assuming it’s even safe for a teen to be out working again by this summer, he’s going to be competing against a ton of adults who are out of work because of the pandemic.

      2. Fed Too*

        I was reading down to see if this came up. I started working at 14 and worked several different “teen jobs” for 8 years in different industries and it was really eye opening and I made money and had independence; it was great! However with every single place I worked, if you walked into them now you would not see teen employees. For a lot of different reasons now, employers don’t want summer hires and if they can chose between a 25 or 45 year old and a 16 year old are going with the older employee because they have more skill/demonstrated experience/responsibility/hours available/etc.

        I think OP is going to be surprised at how hard it’s going to be for her stepson to even find a job (during a pandemic that hit food/retail/service especially hard) especially if he’s not motivated to find one. Then who is going to make sure he gets there, especially if the custody is shared.

    40. calonkat*

      OK, so no need for money or security (outside your control), but he has clearly unrealistic expectations of how easy it is to earn compose/produce music and to earn money online. I am NOT a musician or composer, but I do have friends who are (more in the folk or classic realm than pop or rap), and they make relatively little online with dedicated fanbases (albeit in niche areas). Not enough to support themselves. Most of their money comes from in-person gigs, which have not happened the last year.

      I find the produce OR compose to be sort of funny too, as writing music is a bit different than producing, but again, not my field. It just sounds like he has a vague dream of being in the music world because it’s easy, with no real concept of the work that goes into being at all successful. Even the people who seem to slack off as celebrities spend or have spent inordinate amounts of time and effort to get to their level and maintain that level.

      I have NO experience in a world where money isn’t an issue, but could the friend in the music industry do or arrange an interview to help your stepson understand some of the challenges in this field? I’d have had my daughter doing research into possible career paths, what tools/equipment/skills she’d need, and how she’d go about getting them.

      But it honestly sounds like he just wants to goof off, claim to be working on music, and live in his mother’s basement. And if she’s fine with that, there may not be much you can do to change that.

    41. pcake*

      If he wants to be a music producer, does he have the needed skills? At his age, I seriously doubt it. He might want to learn how to do all the things he’ll need to know. Can he get an internship or entry level job at a recording studio, even if it’s taking out the trash and cleaning the rooms? Even if he got a job at a rehearsal studio, he can learn about the gear, what musicians want and make contacts. And he’ll learn how to deal with people who aren’t family, friends or teachers by working anywhere. And that will help him whether he goes into music or decides to try something else.

    42. MissDisplaced*

      I’ve been working since I was 13 years old.
      Teen jobs teach:
      Independence and self-sufficiency
      Taking direction from bosses/managers
      Working with others/Dealing with others
      Customer service
      Seeing the value (or lack thereof) of labor to money
      The importance of a schedule
      Responsibility

      I agree though the money kids get paid now is piddling compared to what you used to be able to accomplish with a part time job though.

    43. Nunya*

      I’m hung up on the phrase of “teenage job.” Aside of maybe babysitting for family/friends, there aren’t really jobs specifically designed for teenagers.

      If you’ll allow me to rephrase your question, I think you’re really getting at “Why should teenagers want/need a STARTER/EARLY CAREER job?” The short answer is: They need to get a job to learn how to be a worker.

      As for WANTING a job, some might want to make money to help their family or earn their own spending money. Some might already have an inkling of what they want to do professionally and start building skills and experience towards that (which can just as viably be done by volunteering if money isn’t a concern).

      As for NEEDING a job–I won’t harp on the financial necessity some households face; I hope that much is obvious–Working outside the home is a complete reversal of their priorities.

      In a household privileged enough where a young person getting a job is optional, said young person’s motivation, choices, schoolwork, etc., have all been focused on helping that young person succeed. The message for most of their life has been “Work hard in school, get good grades, get into a good college so you can get a good job,” where school is the closest analogue to professional work. Everything the student does is about the STUDENT. They study to improve THEIR OWN grades, and their lack of school work doesn’t have significant repercussions on their classmates. (I’m focusing on the big picture here, not instances of group projects.) They don’t study? They get a bad grade and maybe have to make up for it with more schooling.

      On the other hand, in a professional work environment, everything that a young person/first-time worker is expected to do impacts THE WORKPLACE and THEIR COWORKERS. It’s not about the student anymore. They slack off or don’t show up to work? Their boss and co-workers have to work harder to provide quality service and meet the same standards, which can cause further ramifications to the company long-term if the workers aren’t up to par. Maybe the company gets enough bad reviews and loses business. Maybe health codes or OSHA requirements aren’t met and the company is fined or shut down.

      I’m not trying to say that one bad inexperienced worker will destroy a company (if that’s the case, the place was doomed for the start), but that young workers need to realize that at work, their actions have an effect on other people, and that in order to be considered successful, they will be held to other people’s standards.

      That’s a lesson that can be really hard for young workers to learn. They don’t work for themselves, anymore, they work for the whole.

    44. Carol*

      Well, I could always tell a difference between people who had worked during high school, and those who got pretty much through college without a “real” job. I think there’s a much stronger appreciation for money and the cost of things if you’ve worked. People who “don’t worry about material things” often don’t realize how much food and shelter really cost. I think that’s essential learning for a teenager, truly, even if at that level it starts with fun money.

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        I think this depends on how the person is raised rather than whether or not they’ve worked.

        My daughter was aware that there were things we couldn’t do because we couldn’t afford it and that different people made different choices with their money. Paying the bills always came first, and that meant that there were certain things she couldn’t do because there wasn’t room for them in the family budget.

        After that, everyone does different things with their money because everyone has different priorities. Some valued things, some valued experiences, some valued travel, etc. We like art and theater, so spare money went to museums and theater tickets. Some of her friends had all the latest gadgets but had never seen a live performance other than school trips. Some friends took vacations every year; we usually took a vacation every two years. One year we went to DisneyWorld but I saved for three years to afford that trip.

        So kids know, if parents let them know.

    45. Two Dog Night*

      I didn’t have my first real, non-family job until the summer after I graduated high school, and the only reason I started working was to pay for college. And in retrospect, since I worked continuously from then on, it was kind of nice to have one last summer off when I had a driver’s license and was reasonably independent. Sorry, that’s probably not helping. :-)

      I can see how giving your stepson’s summer some structure would be a good idea–if he refuses to get a job, are there community college classes he could take? Maybe volunteer somewhere?–but I don’t think his lack of job is a sign that he’s not going to be independent as an adult.

    46. JB*

      The experience is really invaluable – it’s very important IMO to have a ‘low-stakes’ environment in which to make newbie working mistakes and learn some very basic skills that are applicable in pretty much any job. It also helps the young person identify what they’re good at.

      Some skills that I, personally, was able to identify in myself and work on at my teen job (coffee and donut chain, if you’re wondering) that I’ve carried forward into my actual career:
      -politely communicating with people who are really coming from a different perspective/have expectations far out of line with reality
      -training someone new
      -when and how to push back on an actual opportunity to approve processes vs. when it’s better to just do as I’m told
      -identifying when someone above me is pretending to act in my best interests as part of a long con
      -how to work productively and professionally with coworkers I just really dislike on a personal level

      It also just teaches how paychecks work (like what tax withholdings look like), makes the teen a more appealing candidate for future positions (work history + maybe a reference + they’ll have examples of working experiences to discuss in interviews), and also will almost definitely leave the teen with some wildly funny stories to tell about encounters with the public.

    47. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I’m not sure getting a 8/hr job will really put a dent in today’s college costs, and he’ll be competing against adults for the few jobs available.

      It’s nice to have, but I wouldn’t be too upset at him if he couldn’t find a job.

    48. Lemon Zinger*

      I needed to get a job when I was a teenager. I needed the money– I never got an allowance and my parents didn’t give me spending money, nor were they going to give me money for books, clothes, etc. when I got to college. So for me, it really was about the money. Work experience was great too of course, but money was the deciding factor.

    49. sequined histories*

      Honestly, I feel like the purpose is to teach us that true freedom is not our lot in life! (I’m a hard worker and a good employee, but at the end of the day, I am NOT a fan of the system we got going here.)

    50. often trapped under a cat*

      I’m not sure there is a real “reason” for kids to work in the summer (absent fiscal concerns). Heresy, I know.

      When I was a teen, I had to have a summer job because my father was out of work and my family was basically living on my mother’s wages as a secretary and some money from my paternal grandparents (the psychological toll of that was awful). So if I didn’t work, I wouldn’t have money. But that was back in the 1970s and local businesses frequently hired local kids “for the summer.”

      When my own daughter was a teen, in the 2010s), summer jobs were incredibly difficult to come by. She went in to pretty much every local business and asked and applied and didn’t even get an interview most of the time. Many employers wanted experience (or said they did), even for pretty basic stuff like stocking shelves. At least one man came on to my daughter during her “interview.”

      She had internships during the school year. She did some babysitting. She understood the value of work because I taught her to value it…but I also made it clear that work was work, and life was life, and there was nothing wrong with having a job so that you could have a life, that you didn’t have to have “a career” or devote all our energy, time, and creativity to an employer.

      When she got to college, she got a job within weeks, in the restaurant industry, and she’s worked pretty steadily ever since (except in 2020 because of you know what). I don’t think working a couple of summers in high school would have taught her anything she didn’t already know.

      I mean, I would have liked her to have a larger amount of savings, but she lived pretty much within her allowance, so it wouldn’t have made a huge difference to my wallet.

      I think teens should work if they are interested in working.

      But adulthood, and not having summer vacations, and needing to be employed pretty much full-time, come up on them really fast. It’s not a big deal, in my opinion, for them to have free summers at 16, 17, or 18 if there is no monetary need for them to work.

      Heck, I’ve been working full-time since my late teens and I would love to have two months off in the summer!

    51. Asenath*

      I think of it as a step to independence. I certainly didn’t work in the same areas as my summer jobs, so I didn’t gain specific work skills. I suppose I learned that I had to show up when I said I would and complete what I said I would, but I also learned that from my family. What really made a difference to me personally was having my own money to spend or save as I wished – even though, of course, my pay was very low, and I earmarked every penny for my future education. I have no idea what would motivate someone who didn’t think that starting to contribute towards self-support was really important.

    52. Kiitemso*

      Off the top of my head: the value of earning your own money (feels so much better than a parental handout!), knowing how important it is to stick to a schedule (beyond just school), learning how to function in a team (team work at work is so different to a group exercise in class, but in a good way).

    53. Maria the Medical Librarian*

      My 16-year-old daughter just started working as a grocery store cashier a couple of months ago. It has been really good for her to interact with a variety of people and to take responsibility for managing her time (keep track of her schedule, block days off from being scheduled, etc.). She was also really excited to buy something expensive she wanted with her own money. I think it helps that most of her friends also have jobs.

    54. OhGee*

      I was paid $5 a week by my parents for chores, and when I was old enough to get a job, I went out and got one because it was the only way to get stuff for myself other than the basics and birthday/Christmas presents. If I’d wanted to be a music producer at the time, I would’ve had to get a job to pay for the equipment, and that’s that. I worked in a grocery store and later in the hardware store my father managed (I’m a woman, and took *great* pleasure in proving that I could carry heavy things). It wasn’t hard to make either job fun, and though most of my post-college career has been in office jobs, when I struggled to find work after grad school, I didn’t feel any kind of shame about taking a grocery job again. So for me, those jobs instilled a work ethic and respect for low-wage workers, *and* let me explore music before the Internet made that easy (I’m a lifelong musician and spent most of my high school paychecks on CDs). We were financially comfortable enough that I didn’t *have* to work as a teen, but I definitely wanted to.

    55. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve had over 100 responses. I hope you are still reading.

      I was *that* kid. My father decided I was not going to work if I was in school.

      I understand why he did that. He was a depression kid, sent out the door to work at age 7 and he never stopped working. He had to bring home money to feed the family…. at age 7. sigh. So he decided that his kid (me) would not have to have the life he had.
      Unfortunately, I am a woman (strike one), who grew up in an even more sexist era (strike two) and I got my first job at 19 (strike three). It wasn’t until I was much older that I realized what a huge setback this was for me. I do believe it came from a good place, but it only hurt me. I spent a good number of years playing catch-up. I was pretty angry at my father for clipping my wings like that.
      Unlike your son, I wasn’t allowed to have much money. So clothes, personal needs and what not came out of the $1 a week allowance I had. Yeah. I learned all the wrong things about money because of not having access to money to do things with. BUT here’s the kicker, parents can’t teach what they don’t know. My father never had money as a kid (gave it to his family) and he did not make a decent wage until after WWII when he was well into his 30s. So handling finances was another setback from this one poor decision my father made. I have worried about money all my life. How ironic when my father’s goal was to have a kid who did not worry about money.

      If I could talk to your son, I would tell him this:
      Okay, go without the summer job. That will feel like a win for a while. Until one day you realize you are way behind where other people your age are at. I know people in the music industry. They were working since age 12 or 13. They found the arena very cutthroat. You have to know people to grease the path. Staying employed is tricky as the slightest thing can cause people to dump you off. You might not even know what you did “wrong”. They won’t be nice about it the way your parents and step mom are- they will have no problem saying, “You’re ugly and you dress funny!” or whatever personal, nasty thing they want to say. It’s rough.

      For you, as a step-mom, I suggest tapping the idea he has about building (whatever the gizmos are). I’d go right into it. Okay let’s write a business plan. Okay lets buy raw material and set up a production line. Now we need to make some spreadsheets to track expenditures and income. We have to collect up information for tax reporting. Where do you plan on selling this item? You should get insurance in case someone sues you. Etc, etc. I’d go right into the thick of it with him- but that’s my personality. Eh, it could be the kid is on to something. More than likely it will work into a learning experience. Maybe his mom is willing to pay for all this, so why not just let her?
      My thinking is that if you go in the opposite direction it’s going to be a fight every inch of the way. If you go with the flow, you can just say, “Well you said you were going to build gizmos to earn money this summer, so you need to do that and see how it goes.” This way you are giving him back his own words and showing him how we are accountable for what we say.
      On the one in a million change he does well- then lucky him and lucky you.

      1. OyHiOh*

        Along the same lines, see if SBDC in your area is running the business fundamentals course (it’s usually packaged as either a 12-ish week program, or broken up into individual components in which case I’d say that the business plan, marketing, and finance components are most important) over the summer. Step son can take it, and it should be free or very nearly so. If SBDC is at all competent, the instructors will be able to direct him to model plans written for/by solo artists/creators such as himself.

    56. Anon today*

      It may not work since he’s only in the home 1:3 of the time, and the other parent may have mores say so, but I had to make money to pay for car insurance & gas. My parents made the payment. That was good motivation and taught me that it takes a job to pay the bills.

    57. Higher-Ed Musician*

      My response is going to be a bit different from the others.

      If he wants to be a musician and/or composer as his future job and is considering going to college as a composition major, it is FAR more important that he gains practical experience in his desired field than it is he finds a random job for the sake of having it. I say this as someone who was conservatory-trained for my post-secondary schooling and is now an academic at a prestigious university in my field.

      Professors (because we’re typically the ones who decide which students to take on in our studios) and admissions officers are going to want to see concrete examples of music training and experience as part of his application. The answer isn’t that he should loaf around the house all summer but try to enroll in a summer camp, a music intensive, ramp up the private lessons, find a music-based internship, etc. There are many well-regarded music summer camps for high school students (e.g., Interlochen), and many universities offer their own one-week intensives for high school students.

      When I hire student workers, interns, and research assistants, I would much rather hire someone with practical field knowledge and experience than someone who doesn’t. And frankly, your college jobs and internships are more important than your high school experiences.

      That doesn’t mean he can’t also mow lawns, babysit, etc. if that’s a requirement for your funding or enrolling him in the lessons or programs, but I would strongly urge him to use his summer to try to gain more resume-worthy experience in the field of music if he’s serious about pursuing it professionally (even if those resume-worthy experiences are programs he enrolls in to learn, not paid experiences as jobs).

      Final note, he should Google “music entrepreneurship.” There are a lot of books and resources that may be helpful.

    58. Aqua Arrow*

      Money was a big reason for me, I wanted to feel like I had autonomy over what I wanted to buy. An unexpected consequence of my high school job was that I was able to come back and work over my Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks from college, which worked out really well because that month of basically full-time employment with no expenses paid for all of my sorority dues, “going out” money, and unexpected expenses at school. It also shows a history of a solid work ethic and willingness to work hard, which absolutely helps with getting internships.

    59. TWW*

      In my opinion, 16 yo kids don’t need a job. If he wants one for the money that’s fine. But if he’d rather spend his time working on his music hobby, why discourage that?

      I’m not sure why you think he needs to learn to take direction. Presumably he’s been learning that in school since kindergarten. Maybe he needs to learn to produce something autonomously.

      As for your concern that having your own child in your own home 1/3 of the time will affect your marriage? That sounds like a you problem.

    60. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you can’t force a person to look for work. In my case, my options were- continue to work on my parents commercial fishing boat (which I deeply disliked) or find another job. Unfortunately, I don’t think your stepson is likely to want to look for work if the alterative is not work. For me, I wanted a job, because I wanted money. I bounced around from daycare to being a tour guide to more fishing to technical theater work to retail to eventually library school. Funny enough, it is the tour guide work that I find I most often need in my day to day life.

    61. StripesAndPolkaDots*

      Why not suggedt a job in a music store (tecords or instruments) or teaching younger people to use tooks to create electronic music? Teaching music isn’t just piano and guitar. Then it’s something he enjoys and he’s proving his love of the music world to future employers. Few studios will want to hire some with zero job history.

    62. Maggie*

      For me it was independence and money. I got to be out in the world making money, driving myself somewhere, and meeting people? Sign me up! Its very interesting that you say he isn’t interested in autonomy, because I also have a family member who is the same age and I was shocked to learn she didn’t care about getting her drivers license and wasn’t seeking that ‘freedom’. If he doesn’t want money or independence, it might be hard to motivate a 16 year old to work for relevant job experience. I definitely didn’t care about that. I just wanted to go drive somewhere and do something adult and make friends.

    63. TWW*

      I’m mind-boggled by the grouchiness of the comments in this thread.

      Speaking as a parent of an artistic 16-yo, and as a musician, I can’t imaging “forcing” my kid to get a job if he didn’t want one, and I’m glad may parents didn’t do that to me.

      I spent my 16th summer playing music with friends. That was the year I discovered my talent for songwriting, taught myself new instruments, learned how to be part of a band, learned how to improvise, and all sorts of other skills. If I didn’t have my parents’ support then, I wouldn’t be the musician I am today. I don’t make much money from music, but music is an incredibly valuable part of my life. And my non-music career is doing well too.

      Not having a job in high school in no way held me back in my career. I had part time jobs in college and a fulltime STEM job lined up when I graduated. (It maybe unrelated, but the person who offered me that job was someone I had been playing music with for years.)

    64. mreasy*

      Music industry internships are usually for college students, or, more likely, grads. He should get a job because if he plans to be a musician, he will need to know how to work foodservice and retail. Trust.

    65. Another JD*

      My summer job as a teenager was to be a counselor at a cooking school’s camp. I got to be with other teenagers, learn how to cook from professionally trained chefs, eat all the things (the chef’s samples – I wasn’t about to eat what the kids made, even though we tried our best to keep their food hygienic), and got paid to boot. My main goal was to do something fun and make money, but I also learned organizational skills from checking kids in and doing inventory, prepping the food, and teaching.

    66. x.y.*

      I echo the others in saying that if he has the privilege of not needing a job for the money and he doesn’t have to contribute to your household or his mom’s household, why does he need a job this summer so badly? Like the others said, he’s going to have his whole life to work all summer. I’m 34 now. At 16, I wanted to be a writer. I spent time with friends and family, read a lot of books, wrote in my journal. I was a good high school student, worked hard to get good grades during the year. My parents didn’t force me to work. They let me be a kid. And I still got a internships during and a good job after college and understood how to take direction from others. Not having a job as a teen doesn’t doom you, in other words
      Also, you call him unmotivated, but if his goal is to make music for his career and he makes music from home, what’s wrong with that? Isn’t that motivation for his passion? Practice? I’m just confused. Also also, I would feel super-hurt if I was your stepson, at your house for 50 hrs/week (that’s a little over 2 days/week) and my presence in my bedroom affects your marriage?

    67. Hillary*

      My high school job was working at my dad’s business because they wanted me out of the house and it was cheap to pay me minimum wage to file things and answer the phone. I wasn’t a great employee but I learned and got better. That high school job got me my first work study job at the on-campus computer store because I already knew the basics of PC peripherals and was comfortable talking to people.

      It doesn’t really matter what that first job is. It signifies that you can show up on time, fulfill responsibilities that you probably don’t like, and work with people well enough to not get fired. It’s a lot easier to go through that learning process in high school when your rent doesn’t depend on it.

      More importantly to your kiddo, I’m happy when our interns have any kind of work or serious volunteer experience because it means I don’t have to teach them about showing up on time in appropriate clothing with a good attitude. If I’m lucky it also means I don’t have to teach them how to talk on the phone, but chances are I’ll cover how to dial long distance. Someone who had a high school job is much more competitive for internships.

      One of my previous employers had a position called “summer helper” in the factory (they had to be 18+). It was a job that seemed designed to motivate employees’ kids to do well in college or trade school even though it paid well, long hours doing physical labor in warm spaces.

    68. Girasol*

      Experience and a successful work history are wonderful reasons to start work as a teen but they won’t impress a teen. I remember my parents shoving me into teen jobs “for the experience” and thinking how wrong that was because I was smarter than stupid grownups anyway. (Of course, years later I was so grateful to have a good grasp of the workplace basics they forced me to learn as I watched coworkers who lacked them failing.) In this case if both his parents can agree, they might consider withholding funds for his next equipment upgrade and helping him figure out how he can earn enough for his gear (or car, or fashion clothes, or whatever.) Kids often have a hazy idea of what it’s like to have to pay one’s own way in life, and that might be a gentle way to ease him into learning what that’s like.

    69. Torrance*

      Can your husband have a nice long sit-down chat with his friend? I’m wondering if perhaps your stepson’s interest in music isn’t being taken quite as seriously as it should be. Teenagers making music in their bedrooms and putting it online isn’t some kind of pipe-dream– it’s the present and the future of the music industry. People get deals based on YouTube & TikTok views; with monetisation and platforms like Patreon, a talented musician can even make a decent go of it on their own.

      And we’re still in the midst of a pandemic. If someone doesn’t have to put their life at risk for minimum wage, they shouldn’t. It’s not just risk of the virus; how many workers have been attacked for asking people to simply wear a mask?! The main purpose of a teenage job is usually to give them a dry run in the rat race– to get used to be abused by customers, mistreated by management, and to become disillusioned by the working world. Gen Z hasn’t had to go to work to be exposed to that.

    70. Mid*

      I mean, I got a job as a teen to help with family expenses, but I know that’s not the most common reason. I’ve been getting paychecks since I was 14, and started doing odd jobs in the neighborhood around 10. I did it because it was needed. Does he pay his own car insurance and gas? Are there other expenses he could be responsible for? What about new production equipment?

      Even the most entry level jobs want to know you have some basic level of work skills—to show up on time, deal with people, follow rules. Getting a part time job as a teen helps with that a lot. If you can make it something revenant to your interests, that’s even better. (Eg tutoring if you want to be a teacher, music lessons if you want to work in music, etc.) But mostly, showing that you know *how* to work is a good thing.

      I’d strongly encourage your stepson to see if he can get involved in *something.* Help the community theater with sets, teach kids an instrument, literally anything will help him in the future. Have him think more broadly about what skills he’ll need to be successful in his desired career. Could he help seniors learn computer skills? Work construction? Those both teach you skills that can help with wanting to be an artist (computer skills and working with people for the former, building sets for the latter.) He could work tables at a restaurant and work on networking. If it’s safe, raves and EDM festivals always need crew to help with set up, advertising, security, etc.

      That said, producing music is a lot of work, and it is a job. If he knows how to market himself, he could certainly make money producing all summer.

    71. AutolycusinExile*

      This year of all years? During COVID? I would NOT push this on him. There’s tons of responses here, so you may not see this, but I was surprised this didn’t come up more in the comments to your question.

      We’re still in a pandemic. Assuming you’re in the US, there are very good odds the vaccine won’t be fully distributed until the end of summer and any job that a 16 year old can get without you finding one for him via networking will involve a lot of interaction with a lot of people. If you’re elsewhere you’ll know the situation better than I will, but it’s still a risk to consider. If there’s no financial need for him to work, I’d be exceptionally hesitant to make him take a summer job, especially given that your households already have a cross vector as he switches from your house to his other parents’. It seems like a sizable risk for almost literally no reward (minimum wage, ‘work experience’ that has little to do with any career he envisions, and it’ll be harder than ever to find a job given that these part-time low-skill jobs took the biggest hit during the COVID recession).

      He’s 16. Loads of teenagers don’t work in high school. If he plans on college or technical school after graduating, then what matters is getting some work experience during that time – anything from during high school counts for almost nothing in comparison. If he doesn’t plan on any further education, then the only real risk is if either you guys and his other folks plan to kick him out at 18. If so, tell him ASAP. If not, then worst case scenario he works his first job at 18 to start paying you rent, and his career track starts then. He’s still super young, so there wouldn’t be any negative repercussions to starting a year later. Otherwise, I’d say have him start next summer, once we know it’s safe(r) to work at Starbucks or whatever you envision.

      Work experience matters! But it’s not like you can’t get it at 20 if you didn’t get it at 16. And if there are skills or values you wanted him to learn from working, I encourage you to seek out ways you or your husband can teach them to him yourself. Even if he does find a job this summer, the lessons will stick even better if he’s learning them from both avenues.

    72. Lets not name names*

      I’d say having some work experience from HS sets you up to get your foot in the door for something entry level in the field you’re interested in (I’m talking intern, answering phones, etc.) once you get to college, which is really what you need to make it in a competitive field, like music, especially if you don’t have connections (which it sounds like you might, but not something you can bet on). Also, since he’s attempting to be an artist, it would be really wise to cultivate a way to support yourself while you’re trying to build a career and get noticed (unless you’re planning to support him)—working only on your art all day when you’re not yet making money from it also can’t be relied on. Getting a start in say, working is restaurants can get you a steady income, usually without a full time schedule, so you can live in the types of cities you need to for something like the music industry and still work on your art. I know that’s not what a kid wants to hear, but I’m certain the only reason I made it in my competitive field in the arts was because I worked all through HS, was hired PT by a gallery in college to answer phones and also took an internship, which led to being promoted to a full time job after I graduated.

    73. RowanUK*

      The only job I had before the age of 22 (after university) lasted 3 months when I was 17. My mum always had the belief that I should focus on schoolwork during term time and be allowed to relax and do whatever I wanted to during the school holidays. I’m creative too, but my focus was on writing and my hobbies.

      I only got the job at 17 because my dad suddenly died, and we needed the extra money until my university loans came through.

      I can’t say it would be the right approach for everyone, but it was for me. I’ve made a career out of writing and coming up with interesting storylines to train clients – I really think that having the time and freedom to discover and explore these things as a teen helped.

    74. allathian*

      For me, it was definitely the money. Or rather, the fact that my parents would buy clothes for me, but not the expensive Levi’s I wanted. I haven’t cared much if at all about fashions since then, but Levi’s got me working! Other than clothes, I spent my money on movie tickets, concerts, teen magazines, and once I hit 18, on nightlife with my friends.

      I was 17 when I got my first job in a grocery store. I was allowed to sell alcohol and tobacco although I was too young to buy the stuff. In the 30+ years since, the regulations have become much stricter, so that if you’re not yet 18, all you can do is stock shelves and take inventory.

    75. LTJ*

      One of my closest friends has a successful career in an arts related field with especially poor financial remuneration, even for the arts. I’ve seen all of her talented college friends eventually give up and work in unrelated fields. I like to think that my friend was more talented than them anyways, but the difference in outcome probably has more to do with the fact that my friend puts in a ridiculous amount of hard work. Her art is a full time job (or more) that some days is more hard work than fun or artistically rewarding. She networks quite heavily and takes on projects she doesn’t care about artistically in order to make connections or increase her name recognition. And on top of all that, she works side gigs that often add up to another full time job in order to increase her savings, as her arts career doesn’t bring in enough money to allow her to buy into the housing market in the city where she is based.

      Your stepson should definitely work on his music this summer. But if he can’t do that on top of a summer job, he doesn’t yet have the work ethic, in my opinion, necessary for his field of choice. If he is determined to get a music internship, then he should learn to network because he’s not going to get too many opportunities that just fall into his lap. Even at 16 he can do informational interviews and start making contacts. I think a summer job will only help him in terms of work ethic and also in terms of exposing him to the sort of work that he realistically might end up doing quite a bit of if he wants a music career! If he hates his summer job, then he might need to at least develop some ambitions towards a career that will support him while he works on his music.

    76. Army 70C*

      I worked when I was off season from my HS sports. I will say that I wasn’t as motivated during job season as I was in sports season and my grades reflected that. But I echo the people and customer service skills you gain; even at McJob. It’s so valuable to learn how to work with people from different backgrounds than your own. At the very least, he can learn that minimum wage runs out FAST.

  7. cbh*

    This is probably more personal than business, but I don’t know how to handle the business side of things.

    The back story….

    I recently started going to a new family doctor. I have a medical issue that is treated by a specialist. If untreated can be very serious, if treated one lives a normal life. Treatment is literally an oral pill prescription. I think the FDA just approved an alternative treatment that is an injection. I am just saying this so you realize this is something so minor and there are worse things in life that could happen to one medically. My specialist knows I plan to live to 100+ and on my life’s adventure list I plan to hike Mount Kilimanjaro. My medical issue is not hindering me in anyway. It is also isolated and any of life’s medical concerns that ever come will not be affected by the treatment plan.

    My new family doctor (FD) is everything I want in a doctor and he checks off a lot of boxes. It took me a long time and a lot of research to find them. Bonus, they seem to care, great bedside manner.
    I made it very clear that my specialist (S) is treating my medical issue. FD is having a trouble respecting the boundary I placed. FD is going to an extreme. I know this is probably from a liability side trying to make sure everything has been reviewed. But every time I see FD (say for a common winter cold) they treat me like I’m on my deathbed because of medical issue.

    For example, he wanted to send me to specialists that I would only need to see if medical issue was untreated. It freaked me out.. I called my specialist who saw me 2 weeks prior and gave me a clean bill of health. In fact, my test results were better than that of a person who does not have medical issue.

    Last week most recent issue I was able to get a last minute COVID vaccine appointment. Literally 5pm that night I was confirmed for an 8:30am appointment the next morning. I had some bad weather-related allergies and FD prescribed (what I thought was) something a little stronger than over the counter. The pharmacist said to just check if I should wait to take allergy med prior to or after I get vaccine. I thought that was weird but ok one can never be too cautious. I was not able to get a hold of FD due to their answering service’s guidelines. Specialist answered my call. When he heard what I was prescribed for allergy, it was apparently a “high octane” version of allergy medicine. Specialist was able to prescribe something to me that was slightly stronger than an over-the-counter brand and I feel great! FYI Specialist has prescribed this allergy medicine to me before but I was trying to keep general health and medical issue separate. When FD called me back he justified his prescription was because of medical issue.

    I guess I’m just tired of FD not respecting the boundary I placed with what Specialist is treating. Specialist even said in extremely-rare-once-in-a-blue-moon cases somethings FD prescribed could mess with my current treatment plan in the long run. Specialist also said he’s never heard from FD as far as communication. Specialist does not do family medicine (I already asked).

    Because of this I decided to switch to a new FD. Current FD is suddenly realizing that I haven’t been in touch lately. How do I explain that while I respect this person, think they are great (in general) at their job, I just can’t deal with their methods of monitoring my general health. When I tried speaking to their receptionist, she kept making excuses which boiled down to their reputation; unique opportunities for us (FD has some hands on experience with medical issue (which is rare for a family doctor) but I feel like it’s more textbook knowledge); and ended the call with I have a balance due from their recent billing cycle. I feel bad and truly liked this FD in all other professional matters. I just feel like we have different ways of looking at things. In this scenario I feel like I can justifiably say “The Customer Is Always Right”.

    1. Ash*

      Hello, you were absolutely right to switch FDs. This person did not have the experience nor expertise to treat your general health issues in the context of your chronic illness, which was well-managed and stable. Please do not feel bad! Your healthcare is your right, and you have a right to find a provider who meets your needs. There’s also no need to elaborate to a receptionist! She has no direct role in your care. If you really want to communicate your concerns with your provider, I suggest asking the receptionist if there is a feedback form that you can fill out. If you want to go above and beyond, you could ask to schedule a phone call with the FD to explain why you chose to transfer your care. But really–you do not owe this practice your time, and you did nothing wrong! Not every physician is going to click with every patient.

    2. blink14*

      Get a new family doctor/PCP. I am also someone with multiple medical specialists, and everyone has to work as a team. I’m currently stuck with a specialist I really dislike, and it may be a temporary thing, but if it becomes a long term condition I have to treat, I’ll be finding an alternative doctor.

    3. BRR*

      I wouldn’t tell them why again. “I needed to switch primary care doctors. I appreciate the care you’ve provided.”

      1. Reba*

        Yep, that’s it! There is nothing else you need to say. “I have changed practices, thank you for sending along my records, have a great day.”

      2. Malarkey01*

        Even this doesn’t have to happen. I’ve had to switch doctors (and dentists and hair stylist and tutors, etc) a lot due to moves, changing preferences, changing needs, etc and really there doesn’t need to be any conversation. You aren’t required to provide any explanation.
        I think you’re going too far to want to communicate that you respect them appreciate, it’s just too much to me. It seems like the boundaries might be a little blurred on both sides. Unless this person is related to you or in your larger social/business circle, there’s zero need to talk to them again.

    4. AllTheBirds*

      “I don’t feel comfortable with your practice because you haven’t been listening/respecting my boundary.”

      You owe it to yourself to move on. I jsut did this with my PCP last year. They simply did not listen. Like every time I asked a question, they responded by talking over me. I was just DONE.

      1. AllTheBirds*

        I really struggled with my decision, but after trying to discuss a life-changing medical event with them, I was so frustrated that I told them outright it was in my best interest as a patient to move on. We have to be our own advocates; not always easy.

    5. OtterB*

      A primary care doc who doesn’t listen to you (when you say that your medical issue is being handled by the specialist) and doesn’t communicate with the specialist is not the right doc for you, no matter how many other good qualities they have.

      Businesswise, for closure you could write a polite letter to FD saying that you liked x and y about their practice very much, but that they kept trying to take over management of your medical issue without discussing it with you or with the specialist and that wasn’t the relationship you needed with your doctor.

    6. twocents*

      This is a business relationship and you don’t need to be beholden to answering their calls. My FD doesn’t intrude on my life like this.

    7. WFH with Cat*

      Well, all of those sounds frustrating, and I understand why you want to switch providers.

      As I see it, all you really need to do is contact the old FD’s office and ask for your records to be sent to your new FD. (You may have to submit a form or something.) You tried to discuss the problem with them previously, and they tried to argue you into staying, and you do not owe them any further explanation. If pressed, you could say the new doctor’s office is more conveniently located or something you’re comfortable saying — but, honestly, I wouldn’t discuss it with them. (And certainly not with anyone other than the physician since it’s that doctor’s behavior that is a problem and chances are low to nil that the staff can do anything to fix the situation.)

      Or, avoid all of this and have your new FD request your records from the old FD’s office. Again, there’s probably a form or something.

    8. sequined histories*

      It’s always good to be gracious and polite, which it sounds like you have been.You’ve already attempted to give them feedback about this issue. Frankly, if you were ever going to be able to explain the issue well enough for the doctor to understand why the way they’re handling your care is problem, you would have already done so and you’d be sticking with this same practitioner! Why put more effort into this when you’ve already decided to move on?

      It’s not your duty to mold this person into a better physician, and trying to is probably futile anyway. You owe this doctor nothing beyond payment of any outstanding bills.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      This to me is what I have been seeing right along. The GP falls apart over every little thing. “Oh we have to run tests, oh you have to go see this one and that one and ….”. All that’s wrong is a hang nail. But because of a major diagnosis the GP feels that they have to drag in other tests/people/whatever.

      To me this is the system we have now. Everyone is scared crapless of being sued OR in some instances the doc is scared crapless of the patient’s issues. I think the current person you have is scared crapless of your issue. I saw that when my husband was so sick. His GP would not even touch him. Literally. We started laughing out loud because my husband’s illness was not communicable by casual contact. But the GP thought it was and clearly demonstrated that by her actions. We got a new GP.

      I think I’d interview the next doc. “I have issue X. It is treated by Dr. Jones. I just need someone to take care of my general health. Would you be able to collaborate with Dr. Jones with a focus on my general well-being?” Then give examples of the types of help you are looking for. You might try asking your specialist which GP in the area works well with him- kind of a backwards approach to the problem.

      And no, I would not bother explaining to the Old FD what went wrong. It’s a waste of time. You have enough work to do to keep yourself humming along. And he will not feel or see any harm in your leaving. Just my experience probably, but most docs don’t seem to care if people leave.

    11. Deborah*

      As a person with multiple lifelong chronic illnesses, eff that FD. Pay the bill, if you owe it, and never speak to them again. You don’t owe them any explanation or second chances. Any doctor who doesn’t respect what you tell them about your own condition and care is going to keep doing that and it only gets more dangerous and frustrating.

      I would encourage you to write this up as a review online, because this is information people desperately need. It is likely this doctor is treating their fat, disabled, chronic illness, chronic pain, women, LGBTQIA*, and POC patients even worse.

    12. Doctor is In*

      Family doctor here. Your new family doctor may have looked good on paper but did not meet your needs! You do not owe him anything, just change doctors. Best wishes.

      1. cbh*

        Thank you Doctor is in. I tend to find doctor’s I like and stick with them through thick and thin. This is the first time where I’ve worked with someone in a medical profession who didn’t “listen” to what I was saying. I’d even consider staying if the new FD said I don’t have experience but let me confer with specialist. I’m just so frustrated. I appreciate your telling me not ever doctor patient relationship is a good fit.

    13. cbh*

      Thank you everyone for your concern, stories and advice. I took each to heart. It is definitely time to switch and wish FD the best.

  8. this girl is (not literally) on fire*

    Last week at work, I was required to attend a training on how to use a fire extinguisher. Via Zoom. I spend most of my day running around and putting out fires, but they tend to be purely figurative.

    1. Threeve*

      I think the benefit of trainings like that is never really how to use a fire extinguisher (they’re fairly self-explanatory) so much as the reminder of “hey, these things exist, you should find one if you see a fire.”

    2. Ashley*

      I really wish they would have given you one to use to test outside during the training. This isn’t a skill most people have to use but having hands on experience is useful. I am wondering who had a fire that made them think this training would be useful.

      2. No Tribble At All*

        I was in a study about fire extinguisher instructions! First they had you just put out a fire, then they’d give you the directions, and they compared the speed of people who got different types of instructions. I didn’t know that there was a pin or that it was zip-tied in place. I’d always thought you just squeezed the trigger. So I was completely unable to put out the test fire by myself until they took pity on me and told me what to do.

        1. JustaTech*

          When I took fire extinguisher training in college (thanks, chem department!) we all stood around a pan of burning diesel fuel and put it out (diesel is really easy to re-light). Even though almost everyone got to watch at least one person before they went, fully half of us forgot to pull the pin.

          When I did fire extinguisher training for work a year or two ago we did a “virtual” fire, which was a panel of LEDs and a special fire extinguisher that “put out” the LEDs; kind of like laser tag or something. That part was fun and useful. Watching a clip from The Office about fire training was less so (mostly because I really don’t like the humor style of The Office, yes, I’m a weirdo).

        2. Blackcat*

          Yeah, it’s really helpful to actually… use them, and your particular one. I was a science teacher and had a HUGE one. When it needed servicing, they actually had me use it outside. I am a tiny person, and the kickback was more than I was expecting.

      4. OneTwoThree*

        One of my favorite training memories is actually getting to test using a fire extinguisher on a live fire. There were fire fighters onsite to setup the fires and teach us how to properly put fires out.

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      It’s weird, but great! I learn all sorts of random things via Youtube. Solid waste of time. 5 stars.

      Seriously though, you’d be horrified to know how many people have no idea how to use a fire extinguisher and are completely blind to their presence. It’s like they see them all the time and it’s just part of the scenery.

    4. MissCoco*

      Never hurts to have a reminder that it really does matter where you point them, and to stand back, but yeah zoom is not the ideal mode for that type of knowledge!

      I got to use one “for real” in a training, and I was pretty surprised at how different it was to use, we also got useful advice on stance and stuff like that

    5. anon24*

      I have to take fire extinguisher training every year. In my last job I had to use one for real when a car caught fire (not an office job). Having the training was definitely useful, especially as the extinguisher didn’t immediately work and I was able to calmly take a step back, look at it, and troubleshoot that in my urgency I hadn’t fully pulled the pin. I also remember aiming at the base of the fire thinking “huh, now I know why they always repeat to aim at the base because I totally want to aim at the top to knock it down.” You never know when you’ll need it, and having the training to kick in keeps you calm.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve worked from home for seven years and every year I have to take the “active shooter in the workplace” training. If I have an active shooter in my home office, I have bigger problems.

      1. JustaTech*

        We did an instructor led active shooter training, which was moderately useful (it would be good to do it again in our super open office, sigh), but several of my coworkers commented repeatedly that their first step would be to smother me because I’d make too much noise.
        I had to tell them it wasn’t funny and to let the instructors keep talking like 3 times and they never really got why I didn’t appreciate them planning to incapacitate me, even jokingly.

    7. Helvetica*

      I’ve done this in practice, pre-pandemic and honestly, you think you can intuit how to use a fire extinguisher but you really can’t. Especially since there are different kinds of extinguishers and it can depend how close you have to get or how to direct the nozzle.

    8. lost academic*

      I think it’s useful to at least watch it. Even for the little household ones. I had a lot of hands on practice with different kinds in my first college research lab safety orientation and apparently people forget to pull the pin a LOT in emergencies and can mash it so badly that it CAN’T come out, so, really helps to be aware.

    9. Malarkey01*

      I had to use one in a college dorm once (RA to the rescue) and holy crap I was not expecting the force of the foam…also they make a HUGE mess which there’s a fire so that’s the concern but the foam mess was worse than the fire…until the sprinklers went off.

    10. Smitten By Juneau*

      Hopefully you have recently checked the fire extinguishers in your (home?) office as a result?

  9. JobSearchWoes*

    I got ghosted after 11 (ELEVEN!) interviews with an organization. I didn’t even really want that job after the first 2 interviews but it still stings.

    Tips to maintain optimism and focus in a job search? I know I’m lucky to be employed now and working remotely but I am just so ready to be out of here and things are taking so long…

    1. Gone Girl*

      Wow, 11 interviews seems like overkill on the company’s part – was there any particular reason you felt like you had to stick it out after the first 2?

      In my case, staying positive was a matter of keeping my self-worth in mind, and being deliberate about the kind of job I wanted (I didn’t want to jump from one trash fire to another). So in the face of ghosting, or rejection, I had to reframe it into something like “it wasn’t meant to be” or “I don’t want to work for that kind of company anyway” (depending on how I was treated in the interview process).

      The times where I was rejected from a job I was really excited about, I was lucky to get some positive feedback and/or decent networking connections for my trouble, which seemed to helped shortened the “grieving” period, so to speak.

      All that to say, maybe consider some of the things you can from the process itself – are you better at answering questions than when you first started? Are you more confident? Those improvements will ultimately help in other interviews, and hopefully make your job search that much shorter.

      1. JobSearchWoes*

        The ghosting organization is really, really prestigious in the field, and I wanted to see if they could change my mind. The 11 interviews wouldn’t have seemed so egregious in normal times as they would be all been scheduled in a couple of days on campus but instead were staggered over 2 weeks via Zoom. Maybe ghosting is for the best as I would have found it difficult to turn them down even knowing it wasn’t the right environment for me.

        I think a big issue for me right now is I’m not in the right frame of mind for learning from the interview experience – I’m too far gone for that. I just want to move on with my life and my career. And that probably isn’t helping me in interviews!

        Thanks for sharing your experience.

        1. Gone Girl*

          I really admire your self awareness, though; I believe knowing is half the battle, and even being aware that that’s where your headspace is can be helpful, too.

          I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t stayed in an interview process longer than I should have (mostly out of desperation, personally), and sometimes being rejected can come as a blessing.

          Also, you’re free to feel however you need to, but I also think you should be proud of how far you made it in the interview process – I think it attests to your skills and personality (regardless of how they handled the final decision).

      2. nep*

        These are such great points and insights.
        Hope things will look up for you soon, JobSearch Woes. The right position for you is out there.

    2. Time for Tea*

      I hear you!! I’ve been searching 3 months and I’m starting to feel the stress. I’ve had half a dozen screening interviews, but nothing really further than that.

      Some things I’m using to keep myself sane:
      – Apply, then let it go. If you hear back, it will be a nice surprise.
      – Walk away from bad opportunities. Have you ever withdrawn an application before? It’s empowering! You’ve already got a current employer that you don’t like that wastes your time. You don’t need a prospective employer that you don’t like doing the same.
      – Small goals and tangible rewards. I’ve got a a lot of non-work responsibilities, so my goal is to apply to 2 places per week. Then I take myself out for ice cream :)
      – Nurture other interests. It helps with the “let it go” by distracting yourself with a different hobby that brings you joy.
      – Care less at your current job. That’s helping me get through the day. All that drama? Nope, you’ll be out soon. Management is enforcing a ridiculous policy? Soon that will just be their problem. Boss wants you to do overtime to prove that you may soon be somehow eligible for an imaginary promotion? Nope, you don’t need that OT- you’re making different opportunities happen.

      Good luck, friend!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just for my own self-preservation, I review a bad situation and promise myself to handle it differently the next time.
      Energy is finite. We only have so much of it. Optimism is a special form of energy. We have a finite amount of optimism and then we can be pretty tapped out. You burned up a lot of energy on these 11 interviews and people pretty much wasted your time. You knew after the second interview you did not want the job. So in the future vow to withdraw from their process once you see it’s not for you. Don’t burn up your finite amount of energy and optimism on stuff like this.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      :virtual 5 five: I am SO FEELING THIS TODAY!

      See my post below. Just gotta remember it’s an employer’s market right now! Then again, I’m seeing a lot of recruiter and other HR roles opening up, the pendulum is starting to swing back to a candidate market ever so slowly.

      Anything that’s meant for you will not pass you by. That’s what I keep reminding myself of when I get frustrated.

  10. Ash*

    When you submit a request for service at your job via e-mail, for example for an IT issue, is it bad form to reply “Thanks!” after it has been resolved? Or does that “Thanks” e-mail look like a new request for service?

    1. Kimmybear*

      Depends on how your system is configured. Our old system treated “thanks” as a new request. Our new system doesn’t. Ask your IT team. They will probably appreciate that you are thinking of how to not create useless tickets.

      1. Coenobita*

        Yeah, in our case if you reply to the original ticket message, it doesn’t create anything new, it just adds the message to the ticket’s record. So it’s not a big deal, though I sometimes do send a thank-you message directly to the individual who handled the request instead (outside of the ticket system entirely). I used to handle support tickets and always appreciated it when someone thanked me, at least!

    2. Just Here for the Cake*

      If they use a ticketing system (i.e. you get an automatic reply back with a number after you first email or you get an automatic email saying the ticket has been closed when everything is resolved), I wouldn’t reply with a thanks. Its not a big deal most of the time, but it does mean that the IT person needs to close the ticket again, which can be a little annoying.

    3. Sled dog mama*

      My job has a ticketing system that sends emails so this may not apply but I always try to have the last message from me be “Thank you for resolving issue X to my satisfaction”. That way there is so documentation that it has been resolved coming from me and not just IT. I do this because I once had a ticket closed out but not resolved and when I escalated the issue they were able to see that I always note that the issue was resolved to my satisfaction except with this one ticket so IT got all over actually fixing the issue.

      TLDR: I do a close the loop specific thank you for things like this

      1. Pilcrow*

        My job’s ticketing system is similar. I tack on the thanks to my closing confirmation. “The issue is resolved now and the ticket can be closed. Thank you!”

    4. Sariel*

      I know for our IT department, it can create extra work if I add a “thanks” to the ticket — and they often close them when they finish, anyway. But, especially if their assistance has been really helpful (beyond a 5-minute fix or something), I do send an email letting them know how much I appreciate their help. And if they come out in person? Definitely. Everyone likes to have some appreciation for what they do, even if it’s their job to help.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      Generally, I wouldn’t. Many (most?) ticketing systems will either create a new ticket or re-open oldoneif you reply.

    6. Courageous cat*

      If you feel rude not doing it, you could always say “Thanks in advance for your help” or something like that when you submit the request.

    7. t*

      I just add a “Thanks very much!” in my original request and leave it at that. I figure from that, people know I’m grateful for their expertise at repair.

    8. IT manager*

      I manage our IT ticketing system, and for a while, adding “Thanks!” did re-open the ticket. There was one ticket where we literally went three or four rounds of “Your ticket has been resolved” “Thanks” (reclose ticket) “Your ticket has been resolved” “Thanks!”. I eventually convinced our product owner to implement a “re-open ticket” feature rather than having tickets re-open by comment because the vast majority of re-opened tickets were thank yous.

      All of this to say – check with your IT team.

    9. Deborah*

      It really depends. If you reply to the ticket email with thanks, I just get an email that says the requester responded and that you said “thanks”. It doesn’t reopen the ticket and since I don’t work very many tickets, it’s nice (a lot of my work isn’t with end users). I agree with the others who said to ask IT if that’s a possibility. Also if there is a survey option, you could do that instead – many places use survey results in performance evals.

    10. Smitten By Juneau*

      In most systems that will reopen the ticket, which just creates more work for the staff handling it. Hopefully there is an opportunity to submit a satisfaction survey (we send one for every closed ticket) that you can use to express your appreciation.

    11. Choggy*

      Yup, absolutely it all depends on the system. Our system just appends an email to the original ticket if someone replies to the resolved email, the assigned Technician is also cc’ed on any emails sent to the ticket. I had been asked by my manager (a couple of times!) to automatically have the ticket reopen if someone replies back that the issue was not fixed. I had to explain to her it would not work because we get more thank you emails than anything so it would be unnecessary work. When the email reply comes in that something has not been resolved, the technician assigned will see the email and can always reopen the ticket themselves as needed.

  11. Box of Kittens - notice period?*

    I’ve been looking for a new job for a few months, and questions about what kind of notice period I should give have come up. I’m a fairly recent grad (within 5 years), but I’m a one-person marketing department that handles a lot. When I do eventually accept an offer, I’ve been leaning toward a 3 or 4 week notice in order to be able to wrap up projects and finalize documentation. But since I’m still a recent grad, I’m applying for entry-level jobs that expect a two-week notice. As I’m writing this I feel like I should just aim to have as much documented as possible and do a standard two-week notice, even though that will be a blow to my current company. How would you plan for this?

    1. Paris Geller*

      What do you feel most comfortable with? Honesty, sure that entry-level job might expect you to give your current employer a two week notice and start week three, but if you ask for a start time three or even four weeks out, are they really going to balk at that if they’re already decided to hire you? Of course places want people to start ASAP, and I totally get that (when we have openings on my team we’re always super excited for the new person to start), but a week or two extra isn’t going to an outrageous ask.

      That being said, if you can only give your company a two week notice, then. . . well, if it’s a blow to them, it’s a blow to them. It’s mentioned on this site a lot that no one person is ever responsible for a company’s success or failure (unless they’re a one person business!), and if they are, then that’s on the company for not having contingencies in place. Your current company will figure it out.

    2. Zephy*

      I feel like if you get an offer from a company and they balk or pull it because you ask for a start date more than 2 weeks in the future, you probably dodged a bullet. Especially if the new company knows you’re currently a department of one, if anything, I would think asking for a slightly longer notice period would make you come off as conscientious.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      My solution has always been to start the documentation process as soon as I start job hunting. That way, the document is ready to go when I’ve gotten my offer and I’m not scrambling to pull it together in my final two weeks. (In my current role, I am not looking to leave but have already started creating the document just because my job is so vast and it’s easier to create and update as I go along.)

      There’s no harm in asking for a 3 or 4 week notice period, but there are many employers who won’t be able to accommodate this, especially for a more junior role.

    4. Millennial PR Pro*

      If you’re a one person marketing department and are within 5 years of graduating, you don’t sound entry level! I would look for jobs that require 3-5 years of experience. It’s doable and I was in a very similar situation this time last year and was able to land a role that was much higher than entry level. (I work in PR which is pretty similar to marketing!)

      If you want to do 3-4 weeks – just be up front with them when you accept an offer or during your interview that because you’re a one person marketing department, you need a little more time to wrap up projects and documentation. Good luck!

  12. PD*

    Is there any way to clear a specific type of writers block?
    I have many ideas but getting them fleshed out onto (virtual) paper is tricky.
    Making a list of points to be made is no problem but expanding them into paragraphs and making the entire paper flow is the hard part.

    Any wisdom from those with experience with this kind of block?
    This is in regards to technical writing.
    TIA

    1. Wellesley*

      Recently, while doing the dishes or whenever I get a free moment, I’ve put on headphones and started a Voice Memo. I talk through my ideas for whatever I’m writing, and try to assemble it into a cohesive narrative. Honestly I don’t even usually listen to it later unless I’m trying to remember something specific I said, it just helps to say it out loud before I type it out. Basically rubber-ducking myself!

      1. PD*

        The ideas are not the problem, I can make a thorough list of points quite easily, its the turning a few dozen points to into a fleshed out article/white paper that hits a block

        1. Oatmeal*

          I think the point they’re making is that they flesh it out while talking to themselves. Theres no threatening blank screen so you can just kind of figure out a flow without committing to it.

    2. Kimmybear*

      I just start writing whatever pops in my head and don’t expect it to turn into something useful until a few rounds of editing.

    3. Ashley*

      Sometimes I start in the middle and then come back to the beginning. So if I am writing directions one how to assemble something I may start on step 3 or 4 if that one is what is clearest to me and build from there. Basically I skip the parts that are tripping me up (mentally) until the end.

      1. PD*

        I also don’t go from start to finish, if I am working on something and something from an earlier or later part comes to move I move to it then move back when its done.

      2. Enby*

        Yes – I start in the middle, wherever seems easiest. My writing is scientific and involves lots of citations, so sometimes I also just flesh out those bullets with all of the info I want to use from each article. Gradually I combine the bullets and tweak a little, then pretty soon I’m doing full-blown reorganization and making paragraphs. I pretty much always do intro and conclusion last because they’re hardest!

    4. Emilitron*

      For technical stuff, I sometimes make a bullet list of what the “conclusions” are going to be, then for each one start writing the logical explanation of why we’d conclude that. Then you can see what information each one needs to introduce it, and I often end up doing the introductory “why we care” last.

      1. PD*

        Conclusions are not an issue, that starts from the title, think of it as putting together a list of instructions then explaining them in sentence/paragraph form.

    5. Reba*

      For some reason starting super obvious sentences like “The purpose of this document is…” “the reason this bullet point is in the document is that…” helps me to get going. Then before too long you can take them out.

    6. meyer lemon*

      I usually start the way you do, by listing all the points I want to make. Then I organize all of the points into paragraphs so that they flow logically. If I have time, I’ll take a short break and work on something else. When I come back to the document, I rewrite each group of points in sentence form. Usually the first sentence is the tough one, and the rest flows fairly naturally once I build up momentum. If it’s hard to get inspired for the first sentence, it’s okay to just write something a bit crappy and fix it later. I usually go into this with the idea that the first draft will be rough and need a lot of editing, but it usually isn’t as bad as I expect.

      1. OyHiOh*

        I’ve done something kind of like this. Because my brain is weird, my bullet points end up being more or less the direct objects in the paragraph. Once I know those, I can order them and construct a paragraph that flows.

        Sometimes, when I’m really stuck, just rewriting my bullet points by hand, on paper, helps unfreeze my brain.

    7. Bree*

      This is going to seem like a joke, but it isn’t. I listen to energetic music without lyrics and then bribe myself with an M&M or something for every sentence I manage to write, no matter how bad it is. Usually, after about half an hour of this approach I break through the block and get a flow going.

      1. PD*

        Thats a pretty awesome approach but doesn’t work in my case.
        I have tried the reward to no effect, and the music doesn’t help, sometimes it actually gets stuck in my head then I can’t work through it! I need to hear it a few more times to clear it.
        In my case the flow doesn’t typically come by pushing, its needs to be there at the beginning of the day.

    8. Autism Dad*

      I wrote professionally for nearly two decades. The best advice about writer’s block I ever heard came from a writer who said, “My father never had truck driver’s block.”

      I’m an overthinker and I’ve had panic attacks in the past, but I stopped worrying about writer’s block after hearing that.

      1. PD*

        I like that!
        However trucking is a learned job, whereas writing is a creative endeavour. It is about creating new ideas from scratch.

        That said I will have to remember that, its extremely apt.

    9. Lyudie*

      Would doing an outline as a sort of intermediate step be helpful? Take that list of points, move them around into different orders (maybe something visual like shapes in Powerpoint would be helpful here) and start seeing where the connections are and how things should fit together. That might help break through the block a bit.

      1. PD*

        I already have this, the ideas themselves are not an issue, its the converting bullet points to sentences and paragraphs and making each point relate to each other so it flows naturally for someone needing to learn from the content.

    10. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m prone to that, and what I do is write the crappiest first draft imaginable. I have to make sure there is ZERO chance of overlap with the final version, otherwise I’ll start trying to edit and things will fall apart. We’re talking a demented screed of wall-to-wall meme-speak and expletives. Usually, as an additional layer of edit-proofing, I’ll write it on paper…in pen, in a scrawling cursive that I can only read if I mostly know what it says.

      Having had that chance to work through both the logic of the paper and my inner demons, I am usually able to treat this draft as a life-sized outline. I can translate from “lunatic” to “business English”, making structural edits as needed, without much difficulty; it’s the blank page, with its infinite possibilities, that gets me every time.

    11. Esmeralda*

      For the various points — what do you need to say about them? I’d put each one on its own piece of paper (or page in an online doc) and then start listing what I need to say about that point. And not worry about how I say it, do I really need to say it, should it go somewhere else, whatever. Just make a list.

      Then go to one of the other points and do the same. Repeat for all the points, put it all away, come back to it later to see if you need to add to it.

      Often in the process of making the list for the first point I tackle, I start writing and the block is broken.

      The other thing is if you have a standard format for the kind of doc it’s going to be, set that all up, putting your points in the appropriate places (or what look like the appropriate places). In other words, it’s work, but kind of mindless. That can also jog you past the block.

      I also have been known to start writing when blocked as follows: this is the first point. I don’t know what to say next. Really really don’t know. maybe i should talk about y? does that make sense? no it doesnt because …. so maybe z? hmm yes because…

      The idea being, I’m writing something and the act of writing loosens up my brain.

    12. tangerineRose*

      My technique is to start writing badly sometimes. If I can’t make the words flow properly, then at least I can write something. Usually if I start writing something, even if it’s awful, then later I can go back and make it better. When it comes to writing, sometimes I have to embrace the bad writing because sometimes it’s easier to write badly and edit it than it is to come up with the right things to say right away.

    13. Girasol*

      I’ve had luck with starting in the middle. I’ve had my work all outlined and everything ready. Then I’d write the first line, reread it, scratch it out, write a paragraph, scratch it out, try again, nope, and just not be able to get going. So once I tried writing the part that was clearest in my mind, a section in the middle. That seemed to give me a sort of mental boost over the hurdle at the start and I wrote the beginning. I felt a bit silly writing that first page and aiming somehow to meet up with an already-written chapter 10, but it worked much better than I thought it might and fit together perfectly.

  13. superhelp*

    How do you deal with a negative workplace environment? My supervisor is overall really good for being kind to his employees in terms of being super understanding of need to be flexible with time, days off, etc, but he definitely has a huge problem where he overreacts to things and it is causing me a lot of stress/anxiety because it has definitely given the rest of my team the impression they can or should do that as well. For example, he has literally screamed over the phone at higher ups in our office (or people who are the same level as him) for making requests of our that he deems unreasonable (and quite frankly, I don’t think they ever are). Or if not, he will do this thing where he just gets super flustered and will call the person, have them on speaker without them knowing, and the rest of the team will jump in “explaining” why they can’t do something. Two of the other men can be yellers too. But then other times, they get a request and jump and say “of course, we are the best most flexible team ever and will do it!”. It’s honestly nonsensical to me what will set people off.

    I was always anxious about this, when I got requests I felt I had to tip toe, think of how to present the request in a way that wouldn’t get the requestor yelled at, etc. Now I’m working on a special project that involves me sometimes making requests of our team and I am SO anxious whenever I have to do it because I don’t know what will set them off! Yesterday I made a request to see if we could possibly introduce a small QA measure to a product we were sending on this morning to make sure it was immediately usable to the recipient and it ended me up on one of those speaker calls where my supervisor and others gathered around explaining why it was unreasonable, plus them jumping to conclusions that it would somehow make us liable for the quality of the item we are sending out? 

    I know the answer might be “quit,” but I’m looking for other suggestions on how to manage this in the meantime because my supervisor is retiring in August and I feel the environment may hopefully improve depending on who replaces him! I also work in a very niche government field so unless I want to totally change fields or move across the country I basically have to just wait for job openings to open up as people retire in my office.

    1. blink14*

      In my former job, I had a horrible boss. What helped me was realizing that her poor actions weren’t about me specifically, but about her own problems. And that helped me work at that job for far longer than I wanted to, due to the last recession. Eventually I hit a point where her disrespect hit a level that I could no longer tolerate, and fortunately I had been looking for a new job pretty aggressively, and was made an offer within a few weeks of the final incident that sent me over the edge.

      Looking back now, I should’ve quit far sooner, taken my chances, and asked my family for support if needed. And if that’s an option, I would consider it.

      1. Dave*

        This and generally try to keep a low profile and limit in person contact as much as possible. I would also consider using some vacation time in blocks to get you to August.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I have a friend who can blow up over simple things.

      Try to view these blow ups as “melt downs”, you know, like with a toddler who doesn’t get their way. When that toddler melts down you’d go into calming mode, right? “Okay this is not awful, here’s why [reasons].”

      So my friend got upset because he pulled a fork out of the drawer and the fork had a spot on it. I just chuckled and said, “It’s not the end of the world, there’s more forks in the drawer.” Sometimes a non-reaction can help a person to bring their emotions back into check.
      Even if you can’t really say anything at all, you can still change the way you view these blow ups and start framing them as melt downs. Train your brain to think of a toddler pouting and crying.

      If you have vacation time left, I would strategically plot out how to use it between now and August such that you are always looking forward to some time away.

  14. Former Usher*

    [TW: This post mentions suicide.]
    .
    .
    .
    I started a new job about four months ago. You might recall that when I resigned my then-manager told me that I had just been promoted. My one-over manager was even willing to meet with me to discuss a counter offer, but I declined.

    For a variety of reasons that I’m sure I’ll describe here at a later time, the new job has not been what I had hoped. I heard through a different manager at my old employer that my former one-over manager was willing to hire me back.

    I learned last week that my former one-over manager died by suicide. I already felt some sense of betrayal for not even letting him pitch a counter offer. Now I feel positively awful. I let him down and on top of that I’m now stuck at my new job. In the middle of the night I drove out to our old site and sat in my car and cried. The waves of grief keep hitting me at unpredictable times. Please tell me it will get better.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I cannot emphasize this enough: You had no hand in this. You had no obligation to let him pitch a counter-offer. You obviously can feel badly for him that whatever was going on in his life was so unbearable but you didn’t let him down.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Whatever this was, I guarantee you it was a whole lot bigger than job issues, and certainly bigger than any workplace interaction he had with you.

        It’s only been a week. It’s going to take some time to process. Is there anyone you can talk to?

        1. Lyudie*

          I want to second all of this. This was not you. Not at all. It might not even have been anything specific. As someone with suicidal ideation at times, and depression pretty much all the time, logic does not come into it. Please, please don’t take this burden on yourself. <3

    2. Exhausted Frontline Worker*

      Oh no! This is a really awful, but I can guarantee you leaving your old job was not the reason this happened. Your former over-manager was likely struggling with several things happening in their life and they didn’t get the help they needed, but that’s not because you left. And carrying this guilt with you won’t bring them back.

      Grief does get better with time, but don’t be afraid to seek professional help if you need it. Sometimes grief can hit unexpectedly hard, even when it’s not a person you were particularly close to. Give yourself lots of grace right now–you deserve it <3

    3. ThatGirl*

      This is hard, and I’m so sorry that you’re struggling, but it’s not your fault. You were his former report. There is no reason to believe letting him pitch the counter offer would have changed anything — he clearly had some deep-seated problems that had nothing to do with you, and probably nothing to do with work at all. It was not your responsibility; it’s just a terrible tragedy.

      This will get better, but if you find yourself still crying or grieving in the next week or two, you should consider a few sessions with a counselor to work through your feelings.

    4. blink14*

      You didn’t let him down. I’ve also dealt with the aftermath of suicide within my family, but also in a less related way at work with a co-worker. Nothing is your fault, at all. The person made this choice for reasons we can’t understand, and it’s not on you, nor any of his current or former colleagues. There were deep issues already going on, and you could not not have changed that.

      It will get better. Allow yourself time to grieve and process. Something that was hugely helpful to me was to be vocal about my experience as a “suicide survivor” – which I think is really a misnomer, I prefer “survivor of suicide loss”. There is a strange cultural phenomenon in that so much focus is on the person who took their own life, but those left behind are stuck in the taboo of suicide talk, and often feel silenced or that they can’t speak about it.

      I’ve found that being vocal has helped me explain how I felt in the aftermath, and long term, but I also have made it a point to say to anyone who mentions the term that suicide hurts everyone you leave behind. This is a perfect example – this person’s family and close friends are not only devastated, but this is an event that will stay with you, too. With the people in their office, neighbors, perhaps the local mailman, local store employees who might know the person, etc. The after effect is far greater many realize.

    5. anon24*

      I am so sorry for your loss.

      It will get better. Be gentle with yourself. Take time. Don’t be afraid to talk to other people about your grief.

      You didn’t let anyone down, you did what was best for you. I hope you’re able to get out of your job and find something even better.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      I am so sprry.

      It will get better.

      And it had nothing to do with your leaving. It was bad timing, that’s all – please don’t feel bad about this. Whatever his reasons were, your not listening to a counter offer was not one of them.

    7. calonkat*

      800-273-8255 if you’re in the USA. National Suicide prevention hotline.
      While you are not suicidal, they can help you do some initial talking through the grief and the (misplaced, but real nonetheless) guilt and then refer you to local resources if you wish.

    8. Courageous cat*

      I am so sorry, but please keep in mind his suicide was not about you. You can and should feel all the grief you want to, but – I say this kindly – there’s no reason to believe he centered you in his mind in any regard (related to this). Which is to say: it was about him, it was not about you. Hopefully focusing on that perspective will help.

    9. Ray Gillette*

      I’m a manager who is really struggling with my mental health right now and feeling like the ground is being pulled out from under me every way I turn and I cannot emphasize this enough: this is not your fault. This is not something you did to him.

      As far as encouragement, honestly I am short on that right now, but there is still a way forward. Even if you can’t go back to your old job, there are plenty of other jobs out there that are not this one. You’re not stuck and it can get better.

      1. Twisted Knickers*

        Ray Gillette, if you’re open to taking encouragement from an internet stranger, I would like to offer it to you. As you so wisely stated to Former Usher, there is still a way forward, and it can get better. Sending warm thoughts and best wishes.

    10. t*

      I’m so sorry, Former Usher.

      But as others have said, you have nothing to do with this. That said, I’m not sure this would be the place for this ind of grief, i.e. feeling responsible for someone’s suicide. I think you should talk with a professional as soon as you can.

    11. bunniferous*

      I think I recall your former letter.

      It is ok to grieve over this because it IS terribly sad. Having said that I promise you that this was not your fault and you did not let anybody down. I understand totally why your mind would go that direction-when something unexpected and tragic happens we are all tempted to play the what-if game-but this individual would have done what they did even if you had stayed at that job to start with. I think you are worried that this was a straw that broke the camel’s back…..but there is ALWAYS a straw, and the likelihood of it being your straw is infinitesimally low.

      I think part of this is that you feel an escape from THIS job just closed but I think once you have had time to process what happened-in a couple of weeks-you will most likely realize that the truth is you didn’t really want to go back there anyway. You don’t have to stay at this job, you can look for another one, you do not have to settle. But just give yourself a little time to get over this shock. It’s very appropriate to feel shocked, and not surprising you are dealing with all these complicated emotions. I think once you have had more time you will realize that you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh I so agree here.

        It’s pretty normal for our minds to wander around and select something/anything, “Oh if I had done X then Tragedy Y would not have happened.” This is kind of magical thinking because it can never be proven or disproven, so somehow we decide THIS then of course is the answer. But it’s not. And time will be kind, a bit of time and space will allow you to see more clearly that you had nothing to do with your big boss’ passing.

        I do think that having a good hard cry is a very healthy thing to do. We can’t keep this stuff inside of us, we have to push it out. Did you know that crying causes a chemical reaction in the brain that helps to keep the brain healthy? Yeah, crying is good for us. But I am still sorry that this upsetting event happened and it happened in your life story.
        Yeah, I do mean life story. Some events are so big that we never forget them. I assume it will be a long time, if ever that you will forget what happened here. We can let these sad events shape us in positive ways- we can be a little more sensitive to what others having going on in their lives and we can be a little more aware of how much we all mean to each other.
        My suggestion to you is to take the time you need here. Then when you are ready begin to look for a third place- a totally different place to work. Yes, it will get better. If you respond to the waves of grief with tears when you feel the need to cry, gradually the tears will subside. This does not mean you care less than before. It means you are processing and moving through the raw grief. Grief changes the way it manifests, tears are only one way grief shows. Grief can be little heart pangs, grief can be reviewing old memories or any number of things. The easiest way to keep processing is to just say, “okay for whatever reason, I need to cry now [take quiet time/whatever]” and then do so. Gradually, you will find your new normal. And it is okay to have a new normal.

    12. Mid*

      TW: suicide

      Repeating what everyone else said: This is not your fault. Not at all. Zero percent. Now, I know that doesn’t stop the guilty feelings, but please try to repeat that to yourself.

      I can speak from experience on this. I’ve attempted suicide. Literally nothing would have stopped me once I set my mind on it. I was not in a rational state of mind. I could have won the lottery and had the most perfect life and I still would have been suicidal at that time.

      You did nothing wrong. You did not cause this. And yes, the waves of grief will get better. Right now they’re like a tsunami, and eventually they’ll settle down into something that just tickles your toes. It doesn’t go away fully, but it will get easier. You will make it through this, just one day at a time. You’re in my thoughts.

    13. Massive Dynamic*

      Oh no, I’m so sorry. Please know that it’s not you. I had something similar happen – I left a company and trained a handful of folks on my tasks, specifically calling one high-performer out to be a great fit to move up into my old role officially. He was such a sweet guy. I think you know where this is going; I got a call a week into my new job later that he died by suicide. It’s heartbreaking, it’s very hard to understand, and it’s natural to feel guilt as though you precipitated it. You DIDN’T, and yes the grief does get better.

  15. Flaxseed*

    When you’re working on something for a coworker, should you ask when they need it by/what the deadline is?

    I had to provide some data for a report that my coworker was working on. My boss said that it didn’t have to be done right away, but no one gave a due date. I had to ask someone else about the data, so I couldn’t get the information to my coworker that day.

    Two days later, my coworker was talking to my boss about it and I heard him say, “It’s been two days!” regarding our project. Boss asked if he talked to me about it and coworker said, “No.”

    No one gave a due date. No one said that they needed the information right away.

    I usually try to get the information to them as soon as possible, but sometimes that doesn’t happen if I need to get the information from someone else.

    I let them know that I’m working on it, but I’m not sure what more I can do on my end.

    1. CTT*

      I always ask for a deadline. On the one hand, if someone needs it by a certain time it should be on them to say that, but people can forget when they’re giving you a bunch of information. And it makes me look proactive, which is good.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Yes, either party can and should start the conversation, especially if it’s for someone in a different department. IMO it’s on the asker to say how urgent the request is.

    3. JJ*

      I always ask! “Do you need this by a certain time?” or “Ideally when would you have this by?”. Its unreasonable for anyone to expect you to read their mind about when something is due, and “ASAP” can mean very different things to different people and projects.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      I generally ask “how important and when do you need it by” when a coworker (or, really, whoever is attempting to assign me work). Otherwise I can’t set up my priority list.

      The only time I tend not to is if it’s a very, very small thing – I can fwd an email or report in 5 minutes, for example.

      This also opens up the discussion if you are pretty swamped at the moment and there will be someone else that could help (or that has that data) that you can point them to.

    5. Fourth and Inches*

      The task was to help out the coworker, not your manager, so that’s probably who you should have checked with about due dates. I don’t know anything about your manager, but if I get an assignment like that from my manager, I ALWAYS check with the person I’m actually doing the work for. Sometimes the details get lost in translation (like due dates) and it never hurts to double check.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      After 20 years of dealing with “you can do it whenever you have a chance,” I’ve learned to always ask for a solid deadline. Even if the deadline is vague like “by the end of the quarter,” it at least quantifies it. There are wildly different interpretations of “whenever” that I ask for clarification. Sometimes people try to be nice by leaving things vague because they feel like they are demanding something if they give a deadline, and the whole time they know it needs to be done by Friday.
      It’s more about communication barriers than it is about deadlines. I ask for a deadline, and I let them know I am documenting the timeline they told me.

    7. Best Practice Betty*

      It’s generally good practice so you can prioritize your own work around the task, or let the coworker know that you’re waiting on input from another team and it will take X days. I always ask when a coworker needs something and how important that task is. It may seem like a low priority to me and within my own world of work, but it could be a high priority item for them. Not setting expectations only leads to frustration all around whereas clear communication with timelines and due dates leads to better working relationships.

    8. Ashley*

      Another option is to say I am working on X but waiting on Y from department Z. I will get this to you by whatever then makes sense based on your calendar and knowledge of department Z’s speed. That way they know why you don’t do it know and can object if they need it faster.

    9. Akcipitrokulo*

      Either ask, or give your timescale for when you’ll get it to them and check if that’s ok. One of you has to!

    10. OyHiOh*

      I always ask if there’s a hard due date. If there’s not a hard due date, I ask about priority level and/or how much time I should spend on the thing. My boss is terrible about due dates, but can usually give me a sense of priority or amount of time. A co worker leading a specific big project is much better about hard due dates and will usually lead with “I need this by X,” but doesn’t have as strong a sense of how much time or priority.

    11. t*

      I ask for time frames so I know how to prioritize, but really, the onus is on the person for who you’re gathering data to provide one in the first place, rather than assume ASAP is the understood deadline.

      If you can do so without rocking the boat too much, I’d ask your co-worker why s/he zoomed right to your boss instead of discussing the situation with you first.

    12. AvonLady Barksdale*

      All requests should involve a discussion of the timeline. Make that your default. It’s a two-pronged conversation: when do they need it and how long does it typically take to get done/when you can fit it in your schedule. And if a roadblock comes up, communicate.

    13. Malarkey01*

      YES, I always have to push back my own internal tendencies with this because people have very different definitions of “no rush” and “when you get time”. I will tell people no rush but when you get a moment (meaning don’t drop what you are doing this second but when you wrap that get -this thinking a few hours), I work with someone who hears (literally no rush, if I have a break this month where I’m looking for work). So I try to specify (or ask if I’m receiving the task) do you need this COB? This week? Right now?

    14. Deborah*

      Personally, I tend to set expectations rather than ask for a deadline. If I can accomplish a request within the same business day, I would usually just acknowledge the request. Anything that will take longer than one day, I will generally acknowledge back with a timeline and, where appropriate, any reasons that they might not be aware of for the length of time required. For complex tasks, I’ll include a high level overview of the steps as well.

      Presenting your timeline sets expectations and allows the other person to let you know if that won’t work. Providing information about any obstacles and the amount of complexity and labor involved in their request tends to reframe your contribution as valuable instead of as an obstacle, while also allowing them to help with any external roadblocks and let you know if your understanding of the task of wrong in some way. It’s also a lot confident way to approach the situation, taking more control and responsibility for your time and not offering it up for others to make what may be arbitrary and capricious demands that are not based on the reality of the request they are making.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Much of my volunteer work has no deadline. So I ask the person I am working with, “When do we think we’d like to have this done?” This opens a conversation, “Let’s get part 1 done by next Friday and go from there.” OR, “I won’t have time to even start this until Thursday. I will ping you Thursday to let you know I am starting.”

      At my job, it’s a little less loose with the time frames but the overall idea applies. If the person needs something from me, I ask them if they have a deadline. Since I work part time, I can respond to them with, “Okay, I see you have no rush on this. My last day this week is X so I will have it to you by then.”

    16. Esmeralda*

      Always ask — you need to be able to plan. Heck, you need to know if you can even do it! And you don’t have to immediately say yes/no. “Let me check my schedule and I’ll get back to you” is a reasonable response.

      And send an email confirming the details. CYA, my friend, and also it will jog your memory as well.

    17. RAM*

      A good work around is for you to give them a timeline instead based off of your task list. So if it’s a 2-hour request, but you’re working on a few other things all of variable priorities you can say “I’ll have this for you by Friday – let me know if you need sooner though and I can accomodate” and then the onus is on them.

  16. CCSF*

    I have a grad school interview coming up. Will take any and all advice the AAM community is willing to give!

    -degree is a MS in leadership
    -I have 20+ years of professional work experience
    -I’m in a high-level individual contributor role right now, but have held management roles in the past
    -I’m an avid and curious learner, but my grades (BA and another grad certificate program) are pretty average

    1. OtterB*

      Somebody else can probably speak to what that interview might be like, but I would say to have a clear idea of what you expect to get out of the degree program and what you think you will bring to it (e.g. experience relevant to class discussions). About the grades, academia can be weirdly fixated on 20-year-old undergraduate grades, but if the question comes up I think you can say that you weren’t as focused earlier and that you are particularly interested in this subject.

      1. Reba*

        Re: what you want to get out of it, I would ask if you could be put in touch with recent alumni. Ask what graduates do after graduating (if they track it; if they don’t track it that in itself it not disqualifying but might not be great).

        Good luck!

    2. WellRed*

      What is the purpose of a masters in leadership? What do you expect it to do for you that work and life experience haven’t? I mean you’ve got 20 years of experience. I guess I just feel skeptical when I see degree programs for stuff like this. But it sounds like you’ll have plenty to talk about and be a great candidate.

      1. CCSF*

        I like learning. I’m at a point in my life where pursuing something simply because I am passionate about it will not negatively impact my financial stability.

        I value the good leaders I’ve encountered in my life. I’ve been lucky to be mentored by a few of them and it’s my turn to do that. I see the difference they can make both to individuals and in change within an org.

        Also, it’s 500 times better than a generic MBA. I understand accounting enough to do/understand a budget, but I don’t need or want a class in it. Same for stats or [insert other business course here]. This program focuses on developing people and that’s my jam. :)

    3. Nonprofiteer*

      In my experience, this type of academic program is more interested in bringing students in vs. being super selective, and your professional experience will be much more important to them than your undergrad. So I would think about yourself as a potential consumer as well as applicant in the interview.

      1. Cece*

        Agree completely. I’ve worked at universities where we’d hold applicant interviews to appear far more selective than we could afford to be…

        1. CCSF*

          Cece and Nonprofiteer — TY both for your replies. TBH I was thinking this was what was going on, but liked getting the confirmation.

  17. HopingForBetter*

    I’m early in my career and facing some extreme burnout and disillusionment in my work life. I’m hoping someone farther along in their career with a similar personality can offer some advice that might pull me out of what I’m afraid is going to spiral into an existential crisis.

    “The only reward for good work is more work.” I’m currently living this reality right now. I have extremely high standards for myself and a high degree of personal integrity (ISTJ here). I’m good at learning new processes quickly and applying them effectively. I also have a high level of pride (a weakness), so when I feel taken advantage of, my instinct is to be angry and lash out.

    In my current job, due to my work ethic and desire to prove myself and achieve, I’m constantly getting more work. Meanwhile, I have tenured coworkers who do almost nothing and also see no consequences. We all get paid the contractual minimum for our positions. I’m struggling to see what the point is – why am I working so hard? I don’t want to be made a fool of. But on the other hand, I see my integrity and work ethic as strengths of mine that I don’t want to give up. I feel like I’m a square peg trying to force myself into a round hole, and it’s causing serious mental health effects. How do I find a good balance here? I don’t want to become just a disillusioned employee who does the bare minimum and doesn’t invest into their work at all, but I also can’t continue on this path I’m on, feeling like I’m being taken advantage of. Is there anyone who has faced this same problem and come to a solution that works for them?

    1. Super Duper Anon*

      I am not quite at the same level of desire to achieve as you, but for me I have found the balance between overwork and doing the bare minimum. For example, I was working hard on a side project last year that was one of my goals. So I put a ton of effort into it along with my regular work and got it done, and got lots of kudos which I enjoyed. But then the goal was done so I switched back to focusing on regular work.

      I have new goals for this year which I will pick up soon, but I am ahead of schedule with my regular work, so I am slowing down a bit before the deadline so I don’t burn myself out. All my work will be done on time, I won’t let it slip so far that I am late, but I can relax a bit. When I start on my extra goal work for 2021, I will throttle back up the intensity.

      Hopefully you can find a similar balance.

      1. HopingForBetter*

        Thank you for your comment! I think being more conscious of what I take on has the potential to go a long way in helping me feel less taken advantage of.

        1. t*

          Remember also that ultimately, you are creating a professional reputation for yourself, while others aren’t. If nothing else, you’re quietly but doggedly protecting yourself from being the first one on the chopping block, and, in the meantime, making yourself an attractive employee to someone other company should you want to explore other opportunities.

          I know how so very frustrating it is to watch other people get away with slacking. That’s why I am presently fulfilling my own exit plan.

    2. Emilitron*

      One thing I did was to consciously assign value to things other than work. It’s easy to get into the effort/praise/reward cycle with school, and pride yourself on your grades, and on the quality of your work that went into earning those grades. Then you take that school attitude to the office, and you’ve got a boss who’s judging your work, and you get a kudos when you complete something well. And the more tasks you do well at the more gold stars you get, and that feels good. But you’re right to ask – what will you do with those gold stars once you get them? If your boss/workplace is your only source of gold stars, you’re reliant on them to make you feel good about yourself. That’s why work/life balance is important, find opportunities to use your integrity, work ethic, creativity, enthusiasm, and other skills for purposes other than your employer, and you’ll have more sources of reward.

      1. HopingForBetter*

        Thank you, this resonated a lot with me. I do think that, while this has been a long-simmering issue for me, the pandemic has really brought things to a full rolling boil. The truth is that a lot of my outside outlets just aren’t available right now and my work/life balance has gotten really out of whack. I’m sure that’s true for many people. In the past, I have invested my energies into volunteering and other outlets where it does feel more rewarding, so I should probably keep that in mind and pursue those options as soon as they’re available again.

        Your comment also made me remember the problem of “vocational awe.” I’m an academic librarian and so many of us in this field have internalized the idea that we are part of a noble profession and self-sacrifice is also noble. Also that the job is a vocation or calling, which can prompt you to put way too much value on your work life. It’s a harmful idea. I think I thought I was avoiding that issue myself, but I’m beginning to realize I was wrong.

    3. Rational Lemming*

      Another ISTJ here! I know exactly how you are feeling.
      How I’ve dealt with it is:
      1) Care less in general about my job. I know it sounds awful. But I’ve had to train myself to think about work as something that I do, not who I am. When I’m at my desk, I do my best. And then when I’m done for the day, I don’t worry about it. This doesn’t mean you won’t have hard days or long days, but it separates work-self from real-self.
      2) When I’m assigned an additional task/project when I’m already busy, I send an email to my manager with a list of all my projects in my priority order. I ask for feedback on the priority and if she would rearrange anything. If you have one-on-ones, might be a good time to bring this up. I think this helps me because it gives my manager line of sight to all of the things I’m working on in one place. I find that after she sees this, she is more likely to assign the next project to someone else on the team. Even if that doesn’t happen for you – you have feedback on the order of priority.
      3) Lazy coworkers are just part of the deal. DO NOT complain about them to other people on your team. Call your mom, call your friend, complain to your partner, make a slambook (at home). Whatever it takes to vent. But not at work – backfires spectacularly.

      It takes practice. If you have a good reputation and a good work ethic – you have room to not go 100% all the time. If your employer is decent, they want you around and not burned out. Your 80% effort is probably still miles beyond your coworkers!

      1. HopingForBetter*

        Thank you for your insightful comment! I think this has been really eye-opening for me. I’m an academic librarian at a college that primarily serves students who come from tough backgrounds – weaker academics, few economic resources, etc. The mission of the college is extremely student-focused. I’m realizing that, as a result, my instinct is to push myself way too far because “it’s for a good cause” or “I’m helping people.” Realistically, I would probably find it a lot easier to strike a healthy balance at a for-profit company where work would feel a lot more like work.

        And yes, that’s a good reminder not to gripe about others at work. My department in particular is host to a variety of too-familiar relationships and I sometimes have to remind myself not to take on these toxic habits, since I won’t be here forever.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Song lyrics grab me and make me think.

      “It’s the one who won’t be taken who cannot seem to give
      And it’s the soul afraid of dying that has never learned to live”
      -Bette Midler.

      When I start thinking that someone is taking advantage of me, all I can do is change ME. I don’t want to morph into that person who “cannot seem to give” because I am so concerned about being taken advantage of. And I don’t want to go around worrying about being taken advantage of to the point that I cut off my nose to spit my face and I become “less than” I could be.

      Where this puts me is I want to be a person who gives to others, but I don’t want to cause my own demise in the process.

      Things I thought about:
      When I take on a task, I make sure I know how it benefits me to take that task on. I mean real benefit, not just “no one else is willing to learn how to do it”.

      I decided to make more of an effort to hand out fishing poles NOT fish. I am more willing to show people things so they can go on their own. An added advantage here is that once I became known as a person who shows people but does not do it for them- the leeching type workers avoided me.

      I learned new levels of confidence. “Boss, I have Big Project A and Big Project B. If I take on Big Project C, something has to go to the back burner or I need more people helping me.” Let the boss decide. Some bosses wait until we scream “uncle” before they will do anything. Do not wait until you are angry/crying/anxious/etc. You already have a reasonable idea of what you can do. Say so NOW before your health falls apart.

      Which brings me to my next one. NO job, ever, on this planet is worth ruining our health for. If you start thinking, “I don’t feel like me anymore” or “I have no energy to do basic things at home”, it is WELL PASSED time to say something. Do what it takes to get you back.

  18. Actuarial Octagon*

    I need help figuring out how to talk to my boss about the person who supports me. We’re in a highly regulated industry where I am client facing and my support person Bob works to put together documentation and acts as a second set of eyes for reviewing things before they go to clients. He has been here for 2 years and is still just not getting it. I’m not sure if it’s lack of confidence or lack of ability but he refuses to even attempt anything slightly new or different, which is really important for the job. Someone who started in the same role 6 months ago has already surpassed him in ability.

    The hard part is that our company culture is super flat and Bob reports to our main boss and I have no real role in performance management. I do some training, but it’s really only explaining how our processes work. How do I convince my conflict avoidant boss that she needs to deal with this?

    1. t*

      I’d tell your boss explicitly how and the extent to which your work is impacted by Bob’s seeming unfit for the role. That should get the ball rolling.

      1. Dave*

        Yes and keep going back. Bob is still doing X, how should I handle this? Make this your boss’s issue more then yours.

    2. ferrina*

      Show how Bob’s work impacts your own. Say it neutrally

      “Hey Boss, Bob missed a deadline for Project X (or whatever he does). I haven’t been able to get to my part of this project because I’m waiting on Bob. Just so you know!”
      “Hey Boss, Bob hasn’t logged in the documentation for Project Y. I’ve checked in with him, but he says he’s struggling with the software. I don’t have time to help him [don’t offer to teach- this isn’t your problem] but letting you know so you can arrange whatever support he needs.”

      Really, you’ve probably got a boss problem. Whenever I see “conflict avoidant’ and “boss” together, it sends chills down my spine. You can try escalating Bob’s issues (your manager will be more motivated to act when she is feeling the pain of Bob’s inability), but at some point you may need to accept that Bob is going to stay.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Going in a different direction, tell your boss that you need someone who does Tasks A, B, C, D, E and F because no one does that for you and you would like your boss to hire a person who can. (Notice my huge list of tasks, make sure that your list of things Bob does not do is a thorough list. Tell your boss what you need to do your job.)

  19. Postdoc*

    I need help on how to deal with one of my coworkers. We work in an academic lab. I am a postdoc and he is a staff scientist but I have been here longer and our boss (the PI) has said we are equal as far as lab hierarchy goes. He has a tendency to completely ignore what I say or agree with me and do the opposite. I am a woman and it really feel like this is coming from sexism. I have no problem with him ignoring me when it comes to his own experiments because that really doesn’t affect me. The problem is when it comes to common use equipment. I read most of the user manuals so that I could do proper maintenance and operation. He didn’t bother. He refuses to do any maintenance until I do it because he doesn’t know how (he actually said this). Then he tells me I am doing it wrong. I recently had to spend over an hour to convince him not to do something that would actually break an expensive piece of equipment. Honestly, I would have let given up and let him deal with it if it wouldn’t put my experiments back to not have it available.

    I’ve talked to my boss about it and she says it is just different communication styles and he is very direct. But if that were true he would be happy to be talked to the way he talks to me and I really do not think that is the case. She has also said that he tends to dig his heels in when corrected in public on something he is wrong about in order to save face. But he wouldn’t have to worry about saving face if he didn’t state things as fact that he actually knows nothing about! How do I disengage to save my sanity while not feeling like a doormat and not putting my own experiments at risk when he decides to “fix” something.

      2. t*

        Yep. Let her pick up the pieces (literally, as in, if he breaks equipment). I didn’t get from your comment that you are in charge of him, so don’t be.

        If, however, you’re blamed for his ways, that’s a whole different sexist ballgame. In that case, I’d have a very long discussion with my boss about why I’m not getting paid to supervise.

      3. Physics Tech*

        Yeah sounds like a double standard here between how postdoc is treated and staff scientist is treated. I hate people who are like “if you just said it a different way they’d understand”. I understand re-phrasing explanations for students trying to learn something, but if he doesn’t understand he asks for clarification not ignore postdoc!!

    2. Unfettered scientist*

      Wow am I familiar with this dynamic…. The other posters are right. Your boss is the issue here. Can you ask your PI to be direct with the staff scientist? Focus on how specific actions affect the work and your lab (e.g., if we don’t maintain the equipment or do X to it, it could cost the lab $$$$), or “I think we need to come up with a lab jobs document to split up the maintenance duties among lab members.” and either do it at lab meeting or suggest a way to split it up yourself. And if you find yourself wasting time on him, I might suggest saying “why don’t we ask PI about this?” (depends on your PI’s knowledge and level of involvement). Sometimes labs rely on a small subset of people going above and beyond to clean up after others and pick up slack, but try not to let that happen because it A) is unfair and wastes your time and B) long-term generates resentment.

      1. Postdoc*

        Unfortunately, I’ve already tried those strategies. My boss is convinced that the problems are due to cultural differences (he is from another country). I don’t think she wants to see that he appears to have very little respect for her either. He can be very nice when not talking about science but once we are talking about science he very clearly doesn’t think women know as much as men. He takes being corrected by the male grad student better. And she is well aware of the money he has wasted.

        I did suggest a chore rotation. She agreed that it is a good idea but it’s been a month and we don’t even have a chore list yet except for the one I made.

        I have also tried saying we should talk to our PI about it when he is insisting on doing something that will be detrimental to the equipment. He agrees and then does it anyway before we can meet with her.

        I am honestly at the end of my rope but I am very close to beginning my faculty job search and can’t afford to burn bridges.

        1. Physics Tech*

          Good luck on your job search! I’d say document, document, document every time you have to fix // maintain equipment so you can show your boss how much of your time it’s taking. Other than that your boss really needs some management training but I don’t think you can suggest that.

        2. JustaTech*

          Oh, I’ve worked with this kind of staff scientist before. I’m very sorry.
          Since you’re starting your job search I think the sanest thing to do is to work around him as much as possible.
          On the “cultural differences”; it’s 100% possible to be from a different culture and *also* be a jerk. And sexist and ageist. (I had a coworker like this who would claim cultural differences when he was really just being stubborn, lazy or a jerk.) (And I bet he’s not like this with your PI, because she’s the boss.)

          On the equipment, honestly I wouldn’t set a chore rotation, or even a “everyone is expected to take care of the crazy-expensive flow cytometer”, because it won’t happen. One person needs to “own” each piece of equipment (and your PI needs to enforce this), or everything will constantly be broken. You take the instrument that you need most for your studies, then assign the rest to other people. The grad students will hopefully take the time and effort to read the manuals, and then your PI can see that the staff scientist breaks his thing and never fixes it.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I’ve worked with two guys who blame their jerk tendencies on being [other culture]. It’s a particular flavor of jerk and nothing to do with any other culture.

            Also no one should get a pass on being unprofessional, rude, and unqualified to run test equipment because they’re from another culture. What even is that as an excuse? “He’s from another culture, we can’t expect him to treat you with respect/learn how to use stuff without breaking it.” It’s like the online anecdotes about how “the women should take notes/make coffee/print stuff out” because we’re “better at it” than the men; the response is, “Do you think the men are too stupid to learn these things?”

            Your boss is being avoidant in the extreme in not addressing this and it sounds like it’s going to cost the lab time and money keeping this guy employed and with unsupervised access to expensive machines.

        3. Unfettered scientist*

          ugh, I’m sorry. This sucks. It doesn’t matter *why* the staff scientist is acting the way he is. It’s about the *impact* of the action on your ability to get work done. It’s so frustrating when PIs don’t get that. Many are not great managers unfortunately… I also wouldn’t suggest a rotation, but more ‘lab jobs’ where one person consistently takes care of a set of rooms/equipment. Protect what you need, but don’t be afraid to drop the ball on making sure this guy is doing things right. Let him muck it up (again, easier said than done when it affects you) and let the PI see the consequences of not managing. In severe circumstances, I’ve seen some people vow to never collab with a certain problematic person because they’re incompetent (and in these cases it was actually fine and they just avoided each other/separated work). But that isn’t always available. Finally, make sure you aren’t taking on too much responsibility and don’t cover up if this guy causes something to happen. There’s a fine line between throwing someone under the bus and making sure people are accountable, but I’ve usually seen people in labs tip toward “no one is ever accountable” so if you also have that tendency don’t be afraid to say “X equipment broke. It looks like the widget snapped because it wasn’t oiled after Staff Scientist used it. This is a major problem for multiple people in the lab. How do we ensure that this never happens again?” and see what she says?

        4. JessicaTate*

          I’m silently screaming reading all of this because I’ve been there (different area of research, but still). One thing I wanted to address in what you wrote:
          “[Boss] says it is just different communication styles and he is very direct. But if that were true he would be happy to be talked to the way he talks to me…” And “he tends to dig his heels in when corrected in public on something he is wrong about in order to save face.”

          ^^This rationale may be part of what is making you crazy. That statement assumes he follows a “do unto others” or “don’t dish it out if you can’t take it” mindset. He does not. Most men like this do not. They are “direct,” name-calling, condescending, rude to anyone they please; but the minute someone is direct or factual with them, they can’t take it; they “save face” by doubling down … or, maybe, walking off the set in a huff. They have no problem living a Double Standard. And people like your boss enable it, and it continues.

          I call this out because this pattern drives me crazy. So, to your “how do I disengage” question — that’s been part of it for me. Figuring out ways to privately name the BS / Double Standard, and then choose my action based on what outcome I need, even if it is further enabling or placating the man-child. I feel less like a doormat because I’m acknowledging (to myself at least) that this is deeply unfair and this man-child is protected by a screwed up system. When I placate his behavior, it is my choice and I’m doing it for MY ends/benefits — in your case, getting your research done so you can leave.

          And from what you’ve said, I think you need to 1) keep working around him, and 2) when you can’t, you have to strategize how to placate/manipulate him as best you can. It sounds like you are saying “I can’t fix it, Boss won’t fix it, I can’t burn bridges, I need to finish” — so, you have to work around/over/through him. He gets defensive if you’re direct with him and/or correct him, so stop doing that. So, I’d be experimenting with other interventions. Trying less direct communication (i.e., will I make more progress with flattery and other tactics he finds acceptably female? — I threw up a little writing that, but honestly, it’s worked for me). Enlisting the male grad student to intervene with him regularly. And yes, I’d end up doing more than my share of chores so that his incompetence doesn’t delay my work and exit. It’s not a satisfying answer, but that’s what it sounds like you’re left with based on what you’ve shared.

          I’m sorry. I am enraged at this jerk – and your boss – on your behalf. Good luck with the job search. May you one day be a PI who establishes a lab with much better dynamics.

          1. Postdoc*

            That’s pretty helpful. I hadn’t quite formulated “I can’t fix it, my boss won’t fix it, I can’t burn bridges and I need to finish” in my mind, but that really is where I am. I keep feeling like there must be some solution I overlooked but it’s probably better to put my head down, plow through and do what I have to do finish up and get out whether it is fair or not. Thank you for putting it that way!

            1. JessicaTate*

              I hope someone else here gives you a good, overlooked suggestion of a way to try to fix things! That would be way better. But if not, this crap situation is by no means a failing on your part. Hang in there!

        5. tangerineRose*

          Can you get the male grad student to act as an “interpreter”. Since the coworker listens to that grad student, maybe the grad student should do the talking for now. Not a good permanent solution, but it sounds like you need to deal with this until you get a new job, and it might get you past this.

          Or when he insists he’s right, can you get the manual and show him he’s wrong, or does he not believe manuals either?

          Sorry you’re having to deal with this. I don’t understand why in this day and age we females still aren’t always treated like people.

      2. I always wanted to be a ninja*

        Agree with others, make a schedule including a simple document log for such, a short how to for the maintenance, and try to have some piece of assigned equipment that each person is responsible for. It will be more work for you to take on the responsibility of creating all of the above mentioned for a routine maintenance program, but it will be worth it. Stick to simple, and just copy and paste from the manufacturer’s user manual or just use that itself. But do keep a simple record of when you maintenance the equipment.
        Even if this does not resolve the laziness of your coworker, or the possible sexism of your current boss, it will help in the long run and will be something you can add in to description of responsibilities/ accomplishments for your current position.

    3. ferrina*

      What would happen if you just….didn’t? What if you focused on your work and only your work? What if he did break stuff? What if you did tell your PI that you can’t run the experiment because Staff Scientist broke it?
      It sounds like you’re doing a lot of management (emotional and supervisory). You can’t care more about this equipment than your PI does. What if you stopped? Shrug and say “Break it if you want. Manual’s right there if you change your mind.” and go back to your work. Dont’ waste your breath conversing with this guy when he doesn’t want to listen- your brain has far better things to do!

      1. Postdoc*

        I have done that for everything that doesn’t directly affect me. If I don’t use it, it’s not my problem. But if he breaks something I need, I then can’t run my experiments and it pushes back how long it will take me to get out. Short term it would be less stressful but there would be more stress long term because theses are things that would put me weeks behind, not days.

        1. Generic Name*

          Okay, so his behavior affects project schedule, and your boss has made it clear they will not deal with the problem of coworker’s behavior. So now they get to deal with project delays. I would keep track of everything so that if something breaks because of your coworker’s action/inaction. Then when you update your boss about project schedule, you can say something like, “Unfortunately schedule has been pushed back a week because of issues with Special Lab Gizmo.” Then when boss asks why there are issues, you can produce a calibration log or cleaning schedule showing that you did your stuff when you were supposed to but coworker did not do his part, so that must be why Gizmo is broken. Your coworker is counting on you to do the crap he doesn’t want to do in order to keep things running smoothly, and your boss is sitting by and letting it happen. So drop the rope and let coworker become your boss’ problem.

        2. ferrina*

          Ooh, so you can’t get out until the job is done, but if you let the natural consequences of his actions occur, then your job gets longer? This feels like a Sartre play.

          Ignore my first response then. Unfortunately, what you’re currently doing sounds like the best option. It sounds awful, though, and I wish there was another way to solve this!

        3. Blackcat*

          So, I see two approaches:
          1) Accept the hit to your productivity. I suspect that once he breaks stuff work enough money, your PI will change strategies.
          2) Reorganize the lab and don’t tell him where anything is.

          2) Raises the level of pettiness and disfunction in the lab, but your PI is not handling things and if you gotta get your work done, do what you gotta do.
          If you do 1) Make sure to keep a close log of when you work with all equipment so he can’t blame braking it on you.

    4. JobHunter*

      Former lab tech/manager here: Is there another lab that will let you borrow their equipment? Explain why, use it in their space, and don’t tell the staff scientist.

      I agree with the others who say this is your PI’s problem and not yours.

  20. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I had a vacation last week and I’m not feeling refreshed at all. This week’s problem is why do people always schedule stuff at the end of the month when they know we have Hella deadlines? I’ve had Training scheduled at the end of the month last month and this month. And even worse, my boss wants us to do some dumb group outing on a Friday at the end of the month.

    I have 12 extensive reports I have to do starting on the 25th ( I’ve been told stop doing them early) and on the 26th I’m gonna have time to bowl?

    And Im not sure how I’m gonna get these assignments done by noon on Monday when they want a whole ass novel rather than pared down information?

    Also, the idea that there shouldn’t be meetings on Friday. The two hour round trip makes this meeting hard to schedule, so I schedule it on a valid work day, when I am working.

    1. ferrina*

      uuugghhh. This is awful!
      Make it your boss’ problem- “Boss, I’ve got 12 reports that are going to take XX hours. I’ve also have Y training and the group outing. I’m not going to all of this- how would you like me to prioritize?”
      You have to go to the training? Great- who should you give this report to (since you won’t have time to do it). Keep escalating for “guidance on priorities”- your boss should get the message and start blocking off the time for you.
      You can also have a broader conversation with your boss- “I’ve noticed that our work gets really busy near the end of the month and I don’t have time to do both my reports and trainings/other activities. Is there a way going forward that we can schedule the trainings for the beginning of the month?”

      BUT- if your boss insists that you have time for everything and that you need to figure out a way to do it on your own and blah blah blah….run. This is a burnout factory.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The trainings were scheduled by the company, but I really don’t get why they think the busiest time of the month is a good time to schedule. Like the beginning of the month is a fine time. I have time then.

        The reports have to be done by me. I personally think if I’m not doing well by Friday, I’ll bail on the outing. I give them extra time anyway! ( I consider anything after 6 extra. I’m often working til 8)

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I understand the other teams have been having ” fun ” but even though I try to hide it, I have a bad personality. I’m like don’t wanna meet teammates IRL, I got work!

        1. allathian*

          Yeah. Especially during the pandemic and all. There’s no place in the world, except maybe NZ, in which it wouldn’t be inadvisable to say the least to meet anyone in person unless you absolutely have to do it. Under no circumstances would “work fun” qualify for that.

          If others think you have a “bad personality”, don’t buy into it. You don’t have a bad personality just because you don’t want to spend even more time with your coworkers than you already do working.

  21. NoticeWuss*

    Anxiety over handing in my notice

    I’ve got a new job, the excitement of which has been ruined by the dread of handing in my notice. My company are okay but when it comes to leaving they act like you are dead to them and betrayed them and I think my notice will come as a surprise and I’m so busy and noone else covers my areas so I feel really bad and don’t know if I can do it point blank or how to do it virtually. I’m scared I might turn down this job because I’m scared to hand in my notice.

    1. Neosmom*

      You have a business relationship with your employer. NoticeWuss Corp. has decided to provide services exclusively to BrandSpankingNewEmployer Inc. in two weeks. Betrayed(not) Employer LLC can deal.

      Enjoy looking forward to the new job and prep as much as possible for your replacement. Best of luck to you!!

    2. Threeve*

      This means that they’re not really an okay workplace, they just reserve the intense, unacceptable emotional manipulation for specific circumstances. Please please please don’t let it keep you from leaving.

      “Betrayal” would be burning the building down or blackmailing them or otherwise leaving them in ruins. You’re just moving to a new job.

    3. AllTheBirds*

      You are doing what’s best for YOU. You owe your company 2 weeks and a wrap-up of whatever you can get to. If they cut you dead for quitting, THAT’S THEIR PROBLEM. You haven’t betrayed them, but you could end up betraying yourself! Is that the deal you want to make with yourself?

      Get it over with, suffer (if it happens) through the last weeks and MOVE ON. You deserve it.

    4. Emilitron*

      Your notice period might be the start of a really awkward couple of weeks, but then it will be over. (what are they gonna do about it, fire you?! ;) ) The worse they are to you, the more they’re indicating what a great choice you’re making by leaving. Make an appointment to talk to your boss (audio not email or text chat, but whether it’s phone or video is whatever your local culture). If first-contact is usually text or email, then “I need ten minutes of your time, can I call you now or should we schedule something later today?” and if they don’t seem to follow up, “It should be quick, but I’d like to talk before the weekend”. Then set yourself a deadline that if you can’t get their attention by the end of today, you’ll quit over email – which will likely inspire them to get in touch so send this 30-60 minutes before 5pm. “I wanted to speak with you in person to tell you this, but the logistics aren’t working out today and I think it’s important to let you know ASAP. I’ve decided to leave (company) and take another job; I’d like my last day to be April 2. I have some ideas about ways to wrap up my work with (project X) but I’d really like to discuss that with you, how I can best support transitioning this work before I leave. I’m free now if you’d like to give me a call, otherwise let’s talk on Monday.”

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’m sorry they are like tgis.

      This is not on you. They are rubbish (and probably won’t change).

      It’s like any other unpleasantness – it’s going to be tough, they will be big babies about it – and you will feel such relief and removal of a burden when it is done.

      You can do this. You are going to have a great new job :)

    6. Dust Bunny*

      It’s not your fault and definitely not your problem that they failed to train anyone else to cover what you do and don’t have enough staff. You don’t owe them anything more.

      I left a job in which I was the only one trained to monitor a certain kind of ongoing test (I tried to train others but wasn’t given the time to do it). When I gave notice, I let my bosses know where this material was, what needed to be done, and that I was the only one who had been handling it. I wrote it in big letters on the task board.

      I found out later that nobody did it for months and they had to start all over. Clients were not happy.

      Still not my fault. I did it until the day I left. I notified everyone who could and should have made arrangements to have it covered. It’s not on me that they set it up so that nobody else could do it.

    7. Courageous cat*

      No one else covering your areas is their oversight. Like, what, are you supposed to stay there literally forever?

      I have been there, though, and I will tell you: without any doubt, do not let your fear of this keep you from putting in your two weeks’. You will feel so much better once you do. And if they are pissed, that’s their problem.

    8. Drago Cucina*

      If they had no back-up/cross training that’s not on you. I understand the guilt, but let it go. It will do you no good. I had guilt when I left old job a year ago, even with excellent people to fill in. I realized that crashing and burning wasn’t my fault at all. What ever happens it’s not your fault. Shake the dust from your sandals and move on.

    9. I See Real People*

      Always ask yourself: What is the worst that can happen? Prepare yourself for half of what you think that will be, and you will always be relieved that it is almost never half as bad as you imagine it to be. Believe me, if your worst fear is that they yell at you for resigning, you want to move on to a better place anyway. You’ll be fine. And it looks good on future references if you’ve given notice. Good luck!

    10. Deborah*

      I did that last August. I sent mine by email. They didn’t respond until the end of the day, and just cut off my remote access to the computer immediately after responding that they no longer needed my services and would pay out the two week’s notice period. I heard from my old boss a month later to pick up the remaining personal items from my desk (I had taken most of it home when we went remote). I have only spoken to one person since. And it was one of the best decisions I’ve made in a long time! I don’t know what they did with all my projects, and really, not my problem! They were treating me badly, so I don’t need them in my life anymore, so it’s not a problem that I haven’t talked to them.

      Do it! Just tell them and then move on with your life.

    11. PollyQ*

      People leave jobs all the time — it’s entirely normal, and almost every business handles it just fine. Just because they act like it’s a betrayal doesn’t mean it actually is. Further, 2 weeks is more than they’d get if you had some kind of medical emergency and were unavailable immediately. Bite the bullet, give them your notice, and in 2 weeks, whatever drama arises (or maybe doesn’t) will be behind you.

      Also, Alison is always very strongly in favor of resigning in person. But I think if you’re feeling this unsure and they’re likely to think badly of you regardless of what you do, it’s not a terrible thing to send an email and then have a follow-up conversation.

    12. Dramamethis*

      Do not sabotage yourself from taking a great new job because a few crybabies can’t handle a business decision.

      Just think, 2 weeks from now they will be out of your life forever and if they see it as a betrayal, then they are mismanaging and that’s not your problem.

      Enjoy the new job!!

    13. Hunybee*

      But you can’t turn down an offer because you dread turning in your notice. If it’s that bad, you should just make your notice effective immediately if you can and tell your new employer you can start early. There is no need for harassment.

      Liz Ryan actually has some interesting things to say about this on her blog, which I read daily in addition to Ask A Manager.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      So you know what is coming up next. Even though it sucks, I am always glad to know when the light at the end of the tunnel is an on-coming train. I can brace myself for it.

      So when they give you The Treatment you can smile and tell yourself, “And here is yet another reason why I am leaving.”

      Decide to let yourself up for air. You are worried about these people because no one covers what you do? HOGWASH! They are not worried about you AT ALL and the proof is in the pudding when they give you The Treatment. Let them swim in their own misery they created, it’s okay to do that.

      If you want, you could consider going into the boss and saying, “No one is speaking to me anymore because I am leaving. Would everyone prefer if I just left right away? Would that be easier somehow?”
      These people are not worth two minutes of thought. Really.
      I had a toxic job where TPTB ignored me when I gave notice. What happened next was Peace On Earth because their jabbering was a huge part of my problem. Once they stopped speaking to me it was actually a quiet time before I left.

      If you stay because you are so afraid of the fallout, then this is more like a hostage situation than employer-employee situation. Use your fear to remind yourself this is why you MUST leave, you must extract yourself from these abusers/bullies.

      1. NoticeWuss*

        Thank you everyone, I think I needed a pep talk!

        The company is nice – I might have misrepresented them, but they definitely give off the ‘we’re a family vibe’ that makes you feel bound to give your life and soul to them!

    15. Esmeralda*

      Your current employer doesn’t sound Okay at all.
      No one else covers your areas and you’re leaving? Oh well, sucks to be them!

      Look, you can’t care about the job more than they do. And clearly they don’t care about YOU.

      Be professional. Hand in your notice. If you have documentation for your tasks/projects, timelines, whatever, let your boss know.

      If they’re horrible to you about it, well, that’s their choice. They are CHOOSING to be horrible, CHOOSING to not be ready to cover your work. It’s not your choice. It’s theirs.

    16. The teapots are on fire*

      think of it as a test. If you hand in your resignation and they act like jerks, it’s confirmation of your excellent decision to leave. You’re dead to them? Happiest ghost EVER! You won’t be haunting them for long; you have better places to go.

      Practice saying to yourself during whatever ridiculous tantrum you behold, “Well, obviously THIS was the right decision.”

    17. MacGillicuddy*

      If they treat people badly when they give their notice, then the company is NOT okay.

      Get everything together before you give notice. Get copies of work samples you might need, contact info from coworkers, copies of annual reviews, email threads, etc. This in case they tell you to leave on the spot.

      You work for them in exchange for a paycheck. That is all. They don’t own you, and you don’t have to accept ANY bad behaviors from them. They did not hire you “out of the goodness of their heart”. It’s a business arrangement.

      If necessary, think of them as badly behaved little kids.
      Or think of yourself as an anthropologist who’s studying a dysfunctional culture.

      Change your mindset from being afraid of them to being pissed off at them.

      If they try to dump excessive work on you, tell them you can do X amount in the time you have left and they need to prioritize the tasks.
      If they get really nasty, tell them that the way they’re treating you is unacceptable and you’re leaving at the end of the day and will be using your remaining PTO for the rest of your notice period.

  22. JJ*

    I just initiated a meeting with my manager’s manager (the director) because my team has a big culture problem: the higher ups are continually telling us that they value a “collaborative” team and want our thoughts and ideas, but most of the non-managers feel like they’ve 1) not ever been asked their opinion and/or 2) feel as though their ideas just disappear into the ether when they are expressed and/or 3) don’t have any mechanism to express these frustrations. I suggested we have more skip-level meetings and/or formal upward feedback mechanisms, but Im not sure how to follow up or really get the breadth of the problem across.

    The reason I’m bothering is that I’ve worked on our (relatively young) team for five years now (and thus have some capital) and I do actually believe management doesn’t know the problem exists. I’m not sure how to get the message across, however, without betraying the confidence of my coworkers. I know several of them were happy to hear that I was having this meeting, even if they themselves wouldn’t have felt comfortable…

    I guess I’m wondering from others what DOES make them feel valued on a collaborative team, and what other suggestions I could give to management on how to improve employee morale. I can’t make them listen, but I like the work enough here to want to try and improve the culture if I can…

    1. BlueBelle*

      I would go into that meeting with some clear ideas on what can be done and not expect the higher ups to fix it. If your team is feeling disengaged then they need to be engaged with a solution. One of the first things I would do is connect the bigger business unit or company’s goals to the goals of the team and the individual goals of that team. I would identify 3 key areas that the team would like to see improvement in, and pick one to work on with the help of management over the next 90 days. One might be “avenue to offer solutions” then put together an action team to implement the way it can be done and present it to leadership for buy in and acceptance.
      If you are going in there expecting them to fix this problem you and the team are not going to come out looking very good.
      I’ll check back in if you want any additional advice. I work on corporate culture and engagement all day long.

    2. ferrina*

      My team is really collaborative, but that means that we respect each other’s expertise, bounce ideas off each other and volunteer to help each other whenever we can. The thoughts and ideas gets a little trickier, especially with young teams that don’t always have the experience to know what’s a good idea and what’s terrible.

      Two formats I’ve seen work really well-
      1) The Group Brainstorm. The team has a couple hours or half day to just spitball ideas. They can pitch whatever ideas they like (though you can also restrict this to ideas on a certain topic). Every idea is worth being said. After that meeting, the management/senior team talks through which of the ideas has the best ROI/alignment with corporate strategy and are worth pursuing. They then share the next steps back with the team and get the team involved in implementing these ideas.
      2) The Individual Projects. Each year, I sit down with my direct reports and talk about what they want to do during the following year. I try to leave room for one passion project. They pick the topic, I help them shape it in to a workable plan. Then I, as manager, make sure they have the time to execute the plan, get them the resources they need, and guide them when they need it.

    3. Grits McGee*

      If there are specifics you can bring up as examples, that’s always helpful! Some examples-
      -Your team anticipated expensive problem X on the llama project back when it was first proposed, but there was no venue to communicate that to management. Bonus points if your team is now dealing with the fall out of expensive problem X, or expensive problem X is highly visible.
      -Director made a big deal about soliciting feedback about morale, but submitted feedback was never acknowledged or responded to, resulting in negative morale.

      The important thing is to make it clear what the consequences are for not following through with their expressed desire for feedback. I’d also recommend digging into whether management/the director actually want input, or if they just feel like they have to say it.

    4. tangerineRose*

      Sometimes part of the problem is transparency (or lack thereof). For example, if there’s a table/database where you can submit suggestions, and you do, and nothing ever seems to happen with them, most people will stop submitting suggestions.

      But what if nothing happens with the suggestions because some suggestions are too expensive or will take too long or need more definition or something like that? What if some suggestions are used, and no one mentions it so no one knows?

      If there were quarterly e-mails praising suggestions that were used, that could help. Giving direct feedback on suggestions (to the person, not in public) could help “That’s a great idea, but it’s too much for the budget right now.” or “This suggestion is unclear; please clarify.” or “Interesting, but it would cause X problem.”

      Let people know that their ideas are seen and considered.

  23. Katie Porter's White Board*

    As part of my job, I work as an administrator and manage client relations for a teapot designer on staff, ‘Beryl’. While Beryl is one of the top in her field of design and in high demand, she isn’t my supervisors. We both report directly to ‘Marv.’ Beryl has some significant time-management issues and struggles with follow-through, time management, and detail orientation. Her status updates give a rosier impression of her progress on designs and it’s made me distrustful when receiving these updates. Giving status updates to our clients has turned into a repetitive “I know I said x, y, and z last time but now it’s different” and I’m often in a position where I know I’m not giving clients enough information even though I’m giving all I’ve got. Our clients are in positions where they can’t go really anywhere else and I’m concerned that they feel they’ve fallen victim to bait and switch.

    I’ve tried to alter my processes to fill in gaps, including frequent follow-up on requests, cc’ing her to client emails to convey the importance of being involved, clearly communicating about my needs and the impact of not having those needs met, and limiting requests to make sure details aren’t lost in the follow-up. But at this point I feel like I’m pestering for responses and I’m concerned that I’m giving the impression that I’m being condescending. On the other hand, I don’t feel that I can be ‘firm’ with her because there are age and cultural differences that can cause her to withdraw if she feels disrespected. At the end of the day, I’m still struggling to do my job well. 

    Our supervisor is aware of these issues but when I bring them up to him in a private meeting, his response is “You’re doing great, thank you.” He supports any steps I take to try to improve the situation but hasn’t intervened and at this point I don’t see anything more that I, as a coworker, can do to make the situation better. The only thing I can think of doing at this point is having a frank, private discussion with Marv where I once again lay out the situation but this time say “I’m unable to do my job well with the lack of support I get from Beryl and I don’t feel that I have any other tools in my arsenal to make up for that lack of support.” But is this the best approach? What would you do?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, if I were in your shoes, I’d never say “We’re at point X on this project.” I’d say “Beryl informs me we’re at point X on this project.” So that the next time I could say “Unfortunately, Beryl now informs me we’re only at point Q on this project.” Either it’s a problem to Marv and others, or it’s not, but at least make it clear what (and who) the issue is.

    2. WellRed*

      I think you should also point out the lack of support from Marv as well. He’s not supporting you, he’s avoiding the issue and dumping it on you. He’s not managing.

    3. Mockingjay*

      I don’t feel that I can be ‘firm’ with her because there are age and cultural differences that can cause her to withdraw if she feels disrespected.

      Don’t fall into the trap of managing Beryl’s feelings. It is not disrespectful to ask for work status and to clarify deadlines; those are essential business tasks in any industry. Beryl doesn’t feel disrespected, she’s upset because she’s behind schedule AGAIN and is trying to hide it.

      The real problem is Marv. He’s not managing Beryl. Don’t do it for him. Instead, forward the client inquiries to him: “Marv, the customer wants to know why their teapots aren’t ready. They were supposed to be delivered on the 5th. Please let me know what I should tell the client.” For Q&A emails with Beryl, copy Marv and keep the inquiry succinct: “Beryl, the client was scheduled to review the design two weeks ago. Please provide the date that the design will be ready for him.” Whatever wording you use should make it clear that you require this information to proceed or you need Marv to tell you next steps. If (when) the client gets upset after one or two rounds of tap dance, refer them to Marv.

      I get your frustration; I also depend on others who blow through due dates all the time. I can’t fix them, I can’t make the bosses fix them. I can only do my part and document the rest: here’s what I’ve done, here’s what I’m waiting on, please advise next steps if I don’t get X by date.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I agree with others on responding to Marv and Beryl, on the customer communication side I don’t know if this helps but I work on projects where timelines really can be messy (example if A, B,C, and D happen in order and without X, Y, and Z we’ll deliver July 2021, if there are problems with all of those steps (and there could be, it would be outside our control, and not represent us messing something up) but delivery could be July 2023. So one thing I do is provide updates and schedules with qualifiers like “We anticipate Step 8 being completed by April 16th. This will require a and b. If this or this occurs that will push us back and I’ll have an update by this date”. It sounds nuts, but managing the time expectations and laying out potential roadblocks and being transparent when they happen has led us to really happy customers, even when delivering bad news. This may not work for your product, but transparency can help (not blaming Beryl but being clear delays can occur during design).

    5. PX*

      I can relate to this a little bit from a previous job. If Beryl is meant to deliver the work and she doesnt, there isnt anything you can do about that if you’re not her manager. The only thing you can try to do is demonstrate to Marv the impact this has. As others have already pointed out, until there is actual incentive for him to do anything, he wont. And if your clients cant go anywhere else – what’s his incentive to actually manage Beryl? What does it matter if she’s late with deliverables or the customers are kept waiting? Will you lose future business? Get a bad reputation? Can you quantify or verify any of these things?

      If not, all you can do is accept this is how its going to be, nothing will change – are you okay with that?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You need to point blank ask your boss to step in.

      “Boss, I need you to step in here. I have done x and y and z and nothing has changed. My work is being impacted for a, b and c reasons. I need you to help with these problems.”

      When he says you are doing great, blah, blah, blah, then you say, “I’d like to set up a meeting now to check progress on these problems. What kind of time frame do you think we should give this discussion? When can we
      expect to start to see improvements in this area?

  24. Watry*

    Largely venting: I applied for an internal promotion into a first-level management position. I didn’t make it past the HR screen (for…somewhat stupid reasons) so I didn’t get an interview. Because HR doesn’t send out rejections until the position is filled, even for internal positions, I found out I didn’t get an interview when GrandBoss came to tell us the first interviewee would arrive in about ten minutes.

    GrandBoss found out I had applied and was extremely apologetic about blindsiding me, but it was a perfect storm of crap and now I’m going to spend all weekend trying to deal with my disappointment and anxiety and frustration.

    1. Weekend Please*

      I’m sorry. Your company needs a better way to communicate with internal candidates. At the very least they should let you know you won’t be interviewed before the first interviews happen.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’m sorry that happened to you. I know from experience how much it sucks. Last year my primary senior manager put me in for consideration for a promotion but found out after other candidates were tapped for interviews that my name wasn’t even submitted after all (per a different senior manager’s decision, which we didn’t know overrode my own SM). No reasons were given, which means I can’t even work on specific stuff to improve my chances this year.

      FWIW at the time I revenge-applied to a few external jobs to feel proactive about my career but I ended up staying here once the bad feelings passed. It’s now been a year and I’m still low-key angry about it. I’m trying to use that to motivate myself so that I have a killer resume if I can’t progress this year.

  25. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    This week I found out one of my coworkers got ghosted by HR when he ask about a referral bonus he earned two months ago. Not only that, but the sum is significantly less than advertised and paid not in cash (because taxes), but in gift cards. And then they complain they can’t find the people they need…

    1. WellRed*

      I sincerely hope this nugget of info about your company and HR spreads like wildfire among the rank and file. It’s wrong on so many levels.

    2. Msnotmrs*

      My work has weird rules like that too. The amount is paid out in installments, it’s only for certain job classess, and only on certain shifts, and only on certain campuses. I have no clear picture on how much they ACTUALLY give out.

  26. Goose*

    This just hasn’t been my week. I made rookie mistake after rookie mistake, and while my coworkers have been helpful and supportive, I can tell it’s gotten on some of their nerves. I’m barely two months into this job so some of it is still new job nerves, but I dreaded coming into work today because my anxiety has been out of control. I need to get organized in order to not make some of these mistakes again., but I’m going to playing this week on repeat for a while. Not sure if I’m asking more for advice or for commiseration. Or reassurance that my coworkers won’t hate me for having to pick up my slack?

    1. Campfire Raccoon*

      They don’t hate you. They understand. Seriously.

      My new guy dropped a $4K piece of equipment out of his truck this morning on the way to installing it. Launched it right into morning traffic. And you know what? It’s ok. Crap happens. People make mistakes and learn from them. It sucks and he’s probably embarrassed, but all inconveniences aside -we’ve all been new, we’ve all made mistakes, we’ve all said the wrong thing or missed an important detail.

      It may help you to develop your own little checks and balances to help prevent you from making the same rookie mistakes over and over. I don’t know what that means for your position. For me it looks like lists and my own little training manuals. For my techs it is little laminated cards in the trucks. Maybe spend a few minutes typing up your own little process manual? Whatever works for you and solidifies things in your brain.

    2. Emilitron*

      They will not hate you. Especially if you neither get defensive nor grovelingly apologetic when they continue to check up on you. If you screwed something up, the best possible outcome is that you’ve learned and it won’t happen again; but from their perspective maybe they screwed something up too by not giving you oversight/support to keep it from happening… so to keep it from happening again, they’re going to be doublechecking things with you. Ideal scenario is that you can appreciate that they’re checking up on you and confirm that you’ve already thought about and handled the questions they ask. (“Are you ready for the X report on Tuesday?” “Yes, I’m on it, I think I’ve allowed enough time for the printers this time, I’m planning to send that by noon on Monday. Did you want to see it before I print? I could send it Monday at 11, but if there were edits we wouldn’t make the printers till 2.”)

    3. twocents*

      Someone having a bad week when they’re still new to the role is expected. Even if they’re visibly annoyed, it’s more likely due to the sum of everything they’re dealing with (of which your stuff is just one piece) rather than them thinking a newbie should be an expert already.

    4. Bree*

      Your co-workers won’t hate you. One day they’ll make mistakes and you’ll be there to support them.

      If you find yourself replaying mistakes in your head a lot, one tool that might help is called a “thought record” (used in CBT). Basically, it’s just a worksheet you fill out to help you replace anxious, worst-case-scenario thoughts with more balanced ones. I’ve found them really helpful for bringing down the intensity of my guilt/regret for minor work mistakes.

    5. PollyQ*

      Unless your coworkers are sucky human beings, they are not going to hate you. Many, many jobs cannot be mastered in 2 months, so the mistakes you’re making are probably entirely normal. It might be helpful to do a little analysis on the kinds of mistakes you’re making. Are you not getting full instructions from people? Would it be helpful to ask more questions while you’re being trained, or while you’re in the middle of the process? Are you making the same mistakes repeatedly? In that case, better notes, and perhaps creating some checklists might be helpful.

      But really, I think you’re probably fine. You’re just in the awkward (and normal) phase of learning to do a new job.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Vow not to make the same mistake twice. Line up a plan to prevent that particular mistake from happening again.

      Tell your coworkers thank you and let them know that you look forward to developing into a coworker who can pay them back in some manner.

      BE SEEN writing things down. It’s a small detail but it gets noticed. I kept a note book. I dated each entry and put the topic in the margin. I had one cohort say, “Of course you will learn this job. I see you writing things down all the time.”

      If you are thinking about this in a manner fair to your own self, you will probably realize that there are small things you know you can already do for your cohorts. Stacy prefers names in alphabetical order- so you flip the order of the names before you email the list. Brian always worries about nailing down the number of broken teapots. So you make it a point to have that number handy for him. Just noticing these small things is powerful stuff and it’s already within your reach to start making sure you are hitting these targets.

      They don’t hate you. They are just tired like the rest of us. Give a nod to that. Maybe they prefer to handle questions first thing in the morning or whatever. Go with their flow as often as you can.

  27. clover*

    Thank you to everyone who helped with my sunscreen question in the weekend thread! Today I am on the hunt for some nice warm cardigans I can wear at work!

    Would love to hear some recommendations or suggestions on buying cardigans/sweaters that can keep me warm in office air-conditioning. I have a fleece jacket if I can’t take the chill anymore, but its bulky and not very professional looking.

    1. Bagpuss*

      I find layers work best for me – silk or similar base-layer that I can wear under my blouse/ shirt – then my normal shirt, blouse or dress, and with that I’m usually warm enough even in just a thin cardigan.

      I’ve found that it’s really hard to find women’s cardigans which are designed for warmth – so many have no fastening or are very thin. However, I’ve a couple I like from Brakeburn (I’m not sure if they have any US outlets) and FatFace.

      Depending on your size and shape, it may also be worth checking menswear – it’s much easier to find warmer / heavier options and those which actually button or zip up, than in ladieswear, in my experience.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      I have a nice chunky knitted cardigan from Old Navy. It doesn’t clasp in the front, if that’s what you’re looking for, but it’s very warm.

    3. A Cataloger*

      I know they tend to be more expensive and sometimes harder to find, but animal fibers (wool, alpaca, vicuna, cashmere, etc.) will be warmer and alpaca, vicuna, and cashmere can all be soft, thin and warm. If your worried about itchiness you can hand wash with a bit of shampoo and lay flat to dry.

      I have knitter friends who shop thrift stores for sweaters made out of these materials, so they can unravel and knit a new sweater, because they are expensive yarns, but usually priced pretty reasonably at thrift stores.

    4. JustaTech*

      I really like my sweatshirt-material blazer from Halogen (Nordstrom’s in-house brand) – it’s soft and warm like a sweatshirt, but has lapels and pockets like a blazer. It’s not the warmest thing ever (for those days it’s a straight-up wool sweater), but it’s a good option for spring/fall.

      (I once had a coworker who was always cold. Like really, really cold. She wore a down coat under her lab coat in the lab.)

    5. Drago Cucina*

      If you catch the Talbots sales you can get some very nice, heavier, cardigans and sweater jackets. We won’t talk about my horde. There’s a reason cardigans are referred to as the lab coats of library science. What do you wear with a summer cardigan? Another cardigan.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My advice is to look for cotton or wool fabrics in a very tight knit that looks woven, rather than chunky knits that have lots of “holes” — I’m probably describing that incorrectly. Ann Taylor usually has lots of professional-looking cardigans in a myriad of colors and they are thin enough to layer over a top without making you look like you’ve instantly gained 10 pounds. You might even put a chunky cardi, light jacket, or pashmina over a thin cardi while you are sitting at your desk and take it off for video calls or when you get up. I also have a nice wool blazer that looks like a casual jacket rather than suit-like.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Years ago I found some silk long johns at JC Penney. They are not bulky and don’t really show at all under most things. I prefer something warmer for severe cold but otherwise in cooler temps they helped a lot.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I like the ones from Coldwater Creek! Some are more “decorative” (open weave/lightweight) but others are sturdier

    9. Wandering*

      My collection of cashmere cardigans is all from thrift shops. Most I’ve paid for one is six (US) dollars. I love them.

  28. Fed Here*

    My boss says EVERY DAY: Don’t think I can’t demote [supervisor]! You can be fired! I will write you UP!

    In 13 years he has never, to my knowledge, written anyone up, and all the gov’t people who were dismissed were due to…legit reasons that had nothing to do with productivity or lack thereof.

    Still, the constant: I will start writing you up! is really starting to alarm and worry me. He says this to everyone, even those who have stellar job evaluations.

    Just in case this doesn’t blow over, how do I position myself to move on, esp. if he starts inventing things on the job evals?

    1. Rational Lemming*

      Can you save a copy of your past positive reviews somewhere outside of the system? Mine are saved in a folder on my desktop.
      I also have a folder on my desktop that I add to throughout the year with positive feedback. Emails that say – hey thanks for getting that done so quickly.” or “I appreciate the effort” or “this product/project looks great!” or whatever. If you are challenged on your worth or work ethic, you have a quick resource to refute that.

      I don’t know that this is going to position you to “move on” really, but it can be support for what you feel are threats to your reputation. And if he does this to everyone… everyone knows it’s a him thing. It’s not about you and I doubt anyone would see those threats as a demerit against you.

      But also… he sounds like a jerk. Doesn’t hurt to look around – just to see what your options are!

      1. ferrina*

        ^ This. Have a clear, documented track record of your performance and praise.

        Also foster relationships with senior colleagues. Have people that can speak to your work product that aren’t this boss. That can be a team lead, project lead, or internal clients. These people generally understand how ridiculous your boss is and can step in and be a reference when you are ready to move on.

        2. Sara without an H*

          Yes, and keep all your documentation in a file that’s NOT on your local server. (I like Dropbox, but there are others out there.)

          You should also be networking within your own organization and any other professional groups available to you. The more allies you have, the easier it will be to line up references.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This is a person who just does not know how to lead people. He feels his only power is in his threats. There are oh-so-many different ways to lead people that are very effective. But he has NO clue.

      Definitely talk to your coworkers and find out how they are managing.

  29. Expat returner*

    Does the AAM community have any sense of how work experience abroad would be perceived in the US? My partner and I are both Americans who moved to central Europe right after university, so our entire CVs (erm, resumes) consist of work abroad. We work in tech. I’ve been working at an international firm that also has offices in the US for the past few years. My partner works for a European company that has offices in Europe and the Middle East. I assume that our work experience will count just fine, but he’s not so sure. It’s true that breaking into the industry was easier here due to a limited amount of native English speakers. (I broke into copywriting fairly easily without a marketing background and went from Copywriter to Senior Copywriter and am now Principal Copywriter). He is also in content and currently a Senior Content Specialist. He’s also been learning programming and might want to switch into that field. We love our adopted country but it’s just too far from family. We’re considering relocating to the North East, which I know is a competitive and expensive area. So what do you guys think, are we screwed?
    Also if anyone has guesses for when we should plan a move (considering the current Covid situation), I’m all ears. Our country is extremely behind on vaccination so that complicates things. Thanks in advance for any tips!

    1. Qwerty*

      For programmers, my questions are the same regardless of what country someone’s experience is in. Code feels pretty universal. If anything, I might ask him more questions around data privacy if he was involved with implementing any of that, since Europe has more rules around that and we’re anticipating the US getting stricter.

      My recommendation would be to start out by looking at more global companies for whom your international experience is a plus.

      Also, indicate somewhere on your resume that you are authorized to work in the US! I’m not sure how the best way to do this is, but if your whole work history is in Europe then they might assume that you’ll need visa sponsorship.

    2. BlueBelle*

      I lived abroad for 17 years before returning to the US, my entire career was outside of the US. I had no problems, and it has actually been a huge asset in my career. Most companies are Global and understanding the different cultures of the different regions you make work with is huge.

      Good luck!

    3. should i apply?*

      My opinion might be biased, because I work in the US for a European company, but I would expect that job experience would transfer and would be looked at as an advantage for larger multinational companies who value experience working with people in other countries / cultures.

  30. BoredatHome*

    I’d really like to hear from anyone who has come back from slacking on their work. 

    My motivation has really taken a hit since I’ve been working from home due to Covid. I was already not really enjoying my role, and finding myself struggling to fill my time due to the nature of the role (much slower paced than I was used to). In particular over the winter I have been working less and less; which I feel bad about but hasn’t really been noticed by my manager so it’s been hard to pull myself out of the rut. I’ve started looking for a new role, but I am concerned that I will find it difficult to adjust to working harder/ normal full time hours again, especially because I would likely be working from home at least at the beginning. 

    I think if I found a job I was more interested in I would likely be able to use that enthusiasm to change this pattern; but I’d love to hear from anyone who has been in a similar position and been able to turn this around – either in a new job or within their current role. 

    1. Nessun*

      Early on in my career I was in a similar place with lack of motivation and just generally phoning it in. I’d started my first office job (I’d been in the workforce in some form or other for over 5 years) and at first I was gung-ho to learn it, excited to have a salary (even a tiny one), and I thought it would be great. But after our busy season when things got calm, I realized I didn’t have much to do, and I started to be really complacent and unmotivated. I worked shut off from everyone else, in my own space, and I’d find myself surfing the net or reading the paper. I did all my duties, but I was clearly just a bum in a chair, not a fully engaged contributing staff member. I didn’t think it mattered much, as long as my work got done – and it kinda didn’t, though I did get told clearly by my boss that if they saw me reading I’d be out. So I stopped that, and then was completely bored.

      Eventually I realized that this was getting me nowhere, and that I could either keep phoning it on, being bored, and getting paid my little salary, or I could figure out what I wanted next. I decided I wanted to stay, partly to prove I was better than my boss’s now opinion of me, and partly because I didn’t have faith I could find similar work elsewhere, with only 1 year of office experience in an entry level position. So the next time I heard someone one level above me say they were super busy, I just butted into her conversation and asked if there was something I could do to help. It wasnt smooth, and I don’t necessarily recommend that specific approach, but she was so busy any pair of hands would do and she taught me something simple and repetitive that wasn’t “my job” just to get it off her plate (with permission). I used that task to prove I could learn new things and perform well and help others, and then I started putting up my hand for *anything* I could possibly help with. I filled my days, showed my boss I’d improved, got more responsibilities, and eventually leveraged that into moving into my coworker’s job when she retired. 20 years later, I’ve got a great career with the same company and I’ve had a TON of opportunities I wouldn’t have had if I’d stayed quiet and unmotivated. I 100% believe I could have kept that entry level job for as long as I wanted, even with myself as i was, as long as I kept my head down – but this reality suits me much better. Good luck finding your groove again!

      1. BoredatHome*

        Thanks Nessun! So good to hear that you were able to turn it around within your current company :)

    2. Courageous cat*

      Yeah, I always have to get a new job to get out of that. It’s always due to like, unhappiness with my position or my company, so either way something has to give. Once I get into that mindset, it is REAL hard to find motivation again.

      Signed,
      Someone in this exact position who just accepted a job offer somewhere else.

    3. burnedout*

      I’m not sure if you just don’t have enough work or you are also putting off doing things you could be doing. Lately I’ve had issues with burnout and some procrastination for projects and tasks that don’t have hard deadlines. What I started doing is assign myself just a couple of manageable tasks each day. It doesn’t have to fill the day, just a couple of things that make you feel like you accomplished something. I also like to write down what I accomplished each week, what I learned, and if I improved or initiated anything. I get satisfaction with learning and improving things, so it helps me to reflect on that. Bonus – it also helps me think of things to list during performance reviews or job interviews.

      If you do move on to a new job, I do think you will naturally have more motivation.

    4. Malarkey01*

      This year is just not normal, all of us are suffering some form of low (or high) grade anxiety, disruption, trauma, depression, and/or burnout. So, I think you can give yourself a little grace there.
      That said, I’ve gone through cycles in my job where things ebb and flow and it’s hard to stay motivated when not busy. If that’s what happens, try building in a schedule where you spread your work throughout the day (maybe you go on a 30 minute run between tasks or prep for dinner or organize a closet). That keeps you busy and also has you completing work tasks throughout the day. As work picks up (or you get a different job) you’ll just cut out the in between personal things.
      If you’re actually procrastinating work, I’d schedule it like meetings. I do his with tasks I don’t want to do, break them up, and then put them on my calendar like meetings so that from this time to this one I work on this task. It doesn’t help how I feel about the task but does get me moving on it.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      For me my work flows slowed waaaay down. I know that I respond to pacing very well, so when the work speeds up then so will I.
      Meanwhile I created artificial goals for myself. “I need to reorganize all X’s by this Friday.” Where X’s were a mess and needed the clean up, but no one cared if it was done Friday this year or Friday next year. I invented the deadline for myself and peace of mind.

  31. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

    You’re well within your rights to get a new FD and I would if I were you. I developed a couple of medical issues while dealing with anxiety disorders and it took me so long to find a doctor actually treated the symptoms instead of pointing me to therapy (which I was already doing) or telling me that it was ‘in my head’ and something not to be concerned about. As it turns out, my medical concerns weren’t related to my mental health and finding a doctor who listened and acted on what I was saying has significantly improved my quality of life.

    You don’t owe any loyalty to a doctor who doesn’t seem to listen to you or serve your best interest.

  32. JustaTech*

    Does anyone from a highly regulated industry have any experience with electronic signatures and how your company/industry transitioned from paper and ink to e-sig?

    I work in biopharma, which (in normal times) means lots and lots of paper and ink signatures. External reports, internal reports, training records, material requests, software requests, the whole kit and caboodle. We’ve started moving some things away from paper (for cleanliness sake, which is important to our regulators), but before the pandemic it was still “print this out, sign it, scan it and email it back”.

    At the beginning of WFH someone realized that this wasn’t really going to be possible, as most people don’t own a scanner or printer (and even if you did, getting your work laptop to hook up to your home printer was a security risk), so we started using some kind of e-sig. My group, which does mostly internal stuff, used the digital signature in Adobe.

    Just a couple of weeks ago someone high up (and far away) decided that this was not acceptable (no longer acceptable) and we had to all go back to physical signatures. Which is a huge pain because it means coming into the office (which we’re generally supposed to avoid doing unless we have a good business reason) to print and sign a thing.
    I also feel like this is a bit over the top, given that I signed a contract for a house with digital signatures (but not the mortgage).

    So, in a rightly regulated industry, is it possible to move to e-sigs? Was it just that we were using a “weak” software? Or is there still really magic about the ink from a ballpoint pen?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Hi, I’m a lawyer in the mortgage industry and we use E-Signatures for everything — have for years (and we even use them for mortgages now in some states that have electronic notary laws). It sounds like the problem was bad software/poor legal involvement. I like DocuSign, but there are plenty of good vendors.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, I used to work for a law firm that handled foreclosures and bankruptcies, and all of our client signatures were done via DocuSign. I believe that was the case when I worked in insurance as well.

        JustaTech, your company’s just being weird and overly cautious. E-signatures are a thing now and many companies in regulated industries use them.

    2. CTT*

      I think there’s a culture issue and an actual industry issue. On the culture side, a lot of it just depends on comfort level. I’m an attorney, and I work with clients and opposing parties who love e-signatures and don’t want to see any paper if they can help it, and some who don’t trust it at all (some of that is down to age/comfort with the technology, but not all of it).

      On the industry side, you mentioned that you signed all your real estate closing documents electronically except the mortgage, and that’s the sticking point in my industry. We won’t be rid of original hard copies until every single county-level jurisdiction in the US moves to e-recording real estate documents.

    3. OyHiOh*

      My industry/sector (economic development, quasi gov/non profit) isn’t as heavily regulated as yours but does have some oversight issues, what with federal grant reporting requirements and similar. Mostly, we just have very old school board governance and a *very* old fashioned auditor. Weirdly, our auditor is my age or perhaps younger, but when she presented her audit findings to the board a couple months ago, she struggled with the Zoom software and admitted it was the first time (FIRST, in almost a year of virtual work life!!!!!) that she’d used a virtual platform for an audit presentation. Anyway, we have a couple board members who want to move our check signing procedures to facsimilia sigs rather than ballpoint pen to paper. Both our bookkeeper and auditor are resisting, along with some board members, because they don’t understand how authentication and verification work in the e process.

      My understanding is that Adobe is pretty robust, I’d be surprised if Adobe e-sigs are the issue. I’d probably poke around in the regulations for your industry. Odds are, e-sigs are addressed somewhere in the regs. Even the federal government has adjusted to virtual work over the past year so even if e-sigs were not at all a thing twelve months ago, there’s probably some kind of policy now. What you’re running into with company leadership is probably more a function of liking things the way they used to be and/or not understanding how security and authentication work in Adobe and similar programs. There might be a program your industry prefers over Adobe but a look around the regulations should help figure that out.

    4. CatCat*

      It’s definitely possible. Sounds like there’s an issue at a high level with trusting them though the reality is they can be more secure than an ink signature.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Yes! I’m also in pharma, and both my current company and former company use Docusign. It’s possible to do e-signatures that comply with FDA part 11 (the reg we worry about the most). Sorry I don’t have any other details to share because I’m not involved in the details.

    6. Waffle Cone*

      Hi! I work in medical device research/development and we have to adhere to 21 CFR 11 regulations. We recently validated Adobe Acrobat Pro to use for e-signatures because it takes a snapshot of a date/time stamp as well as the IP address of the computer used to sign the document. We were using DocuSign previously for documents outside our eQMS but it doesn’t handle IP address capturing so we switched to Adobe. It’s a slow process, but we’re also using Adobe to convert all our forms and checklists to e-forms. Let me know if you have other questions. :)

      1. JustaTech*

        That’s super helpful! Maybe the issue for us is that we didn’t go through a full validation process with Adobe before starting to use it (hello pandemic), but the sudden rollback is what felt weird to me.
        Since it’s not a 21CRF11 thing then hopefully there can be more gentle nudging to get *something*.

    7. The Rural Juror*

      I used Acrobat DC for a lot of purposes, but the signature feature has been a life-saver. I signed a piece of white paper and scanned it in (or you could snap a photo with your phone). I sign everything, even Docusign or other esignature items that are sent to me by vendors, with my own signature in “blue ink.” Part of my job is purchasing, so I like that I can sign P.O.s in a less generic way, such as when Docusign let’s you pick from a list.

    8. should i apply?*

      I work in Medical device development and all of our approvals are done via electronic signature, though not docusign. You have to login with your unique ID and password to approve things. I will say that it is important that your QMS process documentation allows for this. That is usually what gets you in trouble is when you do something that isn’t per your released process.

    10. bunniferous*

      The real estate industry has all kind of ways to use secure signatures. I don’t know exactly what your limitations and boundaries are but I would check with someone in that industry -I would be surprised if you couldn’t find something that would work just fine.

      I work with VA foreclosures and it’s been within the last few years that they finally came on board with e-sigs even though the rest of the industry was using them for quite some time. So if VA does it now I am sure you will find something. As mentioned elsewhere Docusign is a main one but there are others.

    11. pbnj*

      You may want to point out the E-Sign Act was enacted through Congress many years ago for electronic signatures.

      “The E-Sign Act allows the use of electronic records to satisfy any statute, regulation, or rule of law requiring that such information be provided in writing, if the consumer has affirmatively consented to such use and has not withdrawn such consent.”

    12. Environmental Compliance*

      My entire job is regulatory.

      The vast majority of what I can submit is done online now. I have to promise away my first-born in every. single. interaction. with EPA’s stupid database, but it’s fully online. The certification and verification process is somewhat ridiculous, but at least it’s consistent.

      However, the state agency still is 50/50 with wet ink vs. electronic, which is both confusing and irritating with the inconsistency. They are working on putting everything electronic, though. Probably because of industry complaints with COVID, tbh, as I don’t think they’d switch over otherwise. It’s not a very well funded program as compared to some other state agencies.

      I’m not as familiar with Adobe, though. Most of my non-work-related esigs have all been through DocuSign.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      My company provides services like this that help “paper-based” companies digitize.

      Yes you can move to secure digital signatures!
      Docusign, Docuware and even Adobe are some common platforms for this

    14. TPS reporter*

      I work in a highly regulated industry as well. We use Adobe and DocuSign. With your standard version of Adobe, EU entities are sticklers and want more secure signatures. They always insist on paper/mail copies unless you use Adobe Sign. From my rudimentary research, Adobe Sign is very legit and secure and is valid in most jurisdictions.

      Definitely push the envelope here because it’s a HUGE timesaver.

  33. MMM*

    Post-pandemic (whenever that really is), do people think masks will stick around in the workplace? Like during cold and flu season in a large office, or commuting on public transportation? Personally, I would be all for it, and definitely think I’ll keep it up at least some of the time, but I’m curious if it will come off as overly fearful. Obviously parts of the US never accepted masks, and they will never be as commonplace as they already were in many Asian countries. I feel like a lot of people in the future will see someone wearing a mask and just have a visceral reaction that brings them back to Covid times. Curious what other people think!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I have anecdotally seen a fair amount of people say they’re going to keep using masks during cold and flu season, in public, though I’m not sure if that applies to work specifically or not. I could definitely see it for myself if either I’m feeling a little under the weather or I’m going to be in close quarters with folks during flu season.

      I saw a rather astonishing statistic yesterday – the fall/winter of 2019-2020 there were about 13,000 flu admissions to our local hospital system; this past fall/winter there were zero.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      I will be. But I’ve always wondered why we weren’t doing that already. My teenager says the HS kids plan on continuing to wear them as well.

    3. Weekend Please*

      Considering how poor compliance has been some places even at the height of the pandemic, I doubt it. Maybe wearing a mask if you have an active cough will be more accepted, but I don’t think you will see many people wearing them just because it is flu season. Unfortunately, for many masks have developed political undertones. My in laws are offended if I wear a mask near them even though I do it to protect them (I’m vaccinated).

        1. Weekend Please*

          I don’t disagree that there is a strong reason to wear them. I just know that there is a very large number of people who will absolutely not wear them voluntarily. Will more people wear masks than before? Probably. Will it be the majority? Probably not where I live.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I think that there will be some people who will continue to wear them, especially on public transport and in crowded spaces. I suspect that inside offices it will be less common since most people find wearing a mask for long periods uncomfortable or annoying.
      I can definitely see myself wearing one on the tube, for instance.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah. I’m definitely not going back to the office until the masking mandate is removed. I guess I’m lucky in that my employer doesn’t expect us to, and I don’t have any tasks that need to be done at the office. I work better at home anyway, although I must admit that I’m starting to miss some of the unplanned interactions with people I don’t work with regularly. So when it’s reasonably safe and I’ve been vaccinated and there’s no mask mandate anymore, I’m definitely planning to go back at least some days. For me, the ideal would probably be 1 or 2 days a week at the office and the rest at home.

        I just hope that in future it will be more acceptable for employees to WFH if they have a slight cold and would prefer not to spread it to others.

    5. BRR*

      I think it will be more common than before (in the US) but that’s not saying much. I feel like a big goal for a lot of peope in beating covid is to not wear masks anymore.

      1. death by papercuts*

        Yes. It is. Anything on my face is my one sensory issue. I mask up like an adult to get groceries and in the common areas at work (luckily have my own office) and otherwise am not going anywhere until it’s over. I feel like there might have been more compliance if the tone was more “yup this effing SUCKS but it’s not forever so let’s get it over with” rather than “wear a mask and like it :)” but that may be a function of my own social media…if one more person posts “my bra is more uncomfortable than my mask” I’m going to be like GET. FITTED. ugh.

        1. Maggie*

          No I totally feel you. For me a mask is tool. A tool I use to stop the spread of the current respiratory pandemic. When that pandemic is no longer occurring, I will retire that tool. If someone wants to wear a mask forever, that is their right and we live in a free country. I respect that. What I reject is that attitude that I must personally enjoy and savor wearing a mask, that it is “nothing but a piece of cloth on your face” (come on-never seeing a smile or a facial expression, thats not healthy), or that anything but overwhelming joy about masks is somehow being an anti-masker. We must be seeing the same social media bc that’s totally the message being put out.

        2. Disco Janet*

          Try to be less harsh with the FB posts. Someone can be fitted and still find a bra uncomfortable for sensory reasons, just as you dislike masks for sensory reasons.

          1. pancakes*

            Or just unfollow people with views you think are silly. I’ve never had a FB account but I do use Twitter and Instagram, and I haven’t seen anyone say wearing a mask should be likable.

    6. Kathenus*

      I think the best way to help change this culture is to wear masks yourself as desired/needed, and not worry about whether some might see you as overly fearful, or others could have a negative reaction. Culture changes slowly but can change, and if there’s a culture change you want to see (like mask use for cold/flu season), modeling the behavior in spite of potential consequences can be one step towards that.

    7. OyHiOh*

      I am not giving up my masks! I’ve not had a cough, cold, or stomach bug in twelve months and I’m curious how long I can keep that going. Have had allergy sniffles but even those symptoms are down – environmental allergies and probably getting some filtering through the masks. If anyone questions me in After Times, I’ll simply point out that I was healthier during the pandemic than at any other point I can recall in my life and I’d like to keep it that way.

      While I’ve been careful over this year, I’ve not 100% isolated either. I go in to work (private office), do most of the grocery shopping, and have occasionally (roughly once a month) eaten at restaurants throughout the year – defined as eating outside or in a building seating at less than 50% capacity.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m not giving up masks, either, especially since I’m not planning to get vaccinated anytime soon and I just don’t always feel like doing my makeup, lol.

    8. pancakes*

      I’ll be wearing one if I have a cold or whatnot. I haven’t given a moment’s thought to how it will come off to others because I’m in NYC and I’ve seen much stranger things than face masks on the subway. The sort of people who get very emotional or busybody-ish about what strangers are wearing, or who are ignorant enough to think fear has something to do with contagion, are not the sort of people I care about appealing to.

    9. meyer lemon*

      I had been contemplating investing in some masks even before the pandemic, so I’m happy to keep using them now that I have them. I think they’re a great public health measure. If anything, I think I will only have positive associations with them in the future, since for me they are a symbol of consideration and community support.

      1. OyHiOh*

        There was a point a couple years ago when I was seriously considering cloth face masks for self and children, and had several sets in my Amazon cart (short version, anticipating spouse coming home from hospital very medically fragile and susceptible to respiratory infections specifically). Situation change and children decided they didn’t want or need masks after all. They’ve fully embraced masks over the last year. Fashion statements and/or statements of interest. I’m not sure the masks will ever go away now, for them.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      I think it really will depend on the area of the United States. I live in a place where mask compliance was never good (we never had a mask mandate) and it’s dropping and it won’t get better. I personally plan to keep wearing masks until the CDC says they’re no longer necessary, but I will probably always wear a mask on public transportation and in airports.

    11. Brownie*

      I wore N95 masks in the office for years prior to Covid times during pollen season and always got weird looks, but then I’d sneeze and people would instantly understand why I had on the mask. I’m very much going to continue to wear masks post-Covid when in people-dense situations, including if we ever go back to the office, because of everything from scent-filtering to illness prevention. I’m kinda looking forward to making them into fashion accessories too. I’ve seen some gorgeous masks that I’d wear just for fashion and I bet fabric masks like that won’t produce the visceral “OMG ILLNESS” reaction nearly as much as disposable masks would.

      1. JustaTech*

        I wish we’d had masks years ago when my coworker with bad seasonal allergies and my coworker with a compromised immune system would get in these terrible tiffs when the coworker with allergies (who was a contractor and had no sick time) was sneezing terribly, and the immune-compromised coworker would get upset and demand she be sent home, even though allergy coworker had no sick time and wasn’t allowed to WFH. If they both could have worn masks it would have eased everyone’s stress a lot (including mine, having to listen to them argue).

    12. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think I’ll definitely still be using them, but only in specific circumstances:

      1. house cleaning – dust makes me sneeze so I clean in a mask, and no sneezes! Also useful for minor DIY that doesn’t require a full respirator.

      2. doctor/hospital waiting rooms – places where I’m around the sick and/or vulnerable, or when I’m already sick and/or vulnerable myself.

      3. public transport – though this is rare because I live out in the sticks and we don’t really have any.

      I haven’t minded wearing a mask. I was an early adopter here and wear one where I think it’s prudent, not just where it’s mandated. I’d also always rather be over-cautious than careless. I can see that people who find them uncomfortable or distressing, or who have worn them through a full working day every day for months, would be more keen to be rid of them entirely.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I haven’t minded wearing a mask. I was an early adopter here and wear one where I think it’s prudent, not just where it’s mandated. I’d also always rather be over-cautious than careless.

        This is me, and I too was an early adopter – I was wearing masks beginning in late February around my apartment building (because I put myself on strict lockdown so the common spaces of my building were my only travel destinations) long before building management made mask usage in all common areas mandatory for all residents and visitors.

    13. Nicki Name*

      I intend to wear masks when I fly from now on, but tbh I was thinking about doing that even before the pandemic.

      I have a co-worker with allergies who discovered that wearing a mask when they were out jogging last spring made a big difference in how miserable they were, so they intend to keep doing that.

      1. MMM*

        I don’t think I’ll ever be able to do public transit without them! Just imagining what’s swirling around in the shared air UGH

    14. Drago Cucina*

      My son who is an assistant manager at a large retail space plans to keep using his during work. He and I were just talking about our hope that the plexi-glass stays in a lot of areas. He’s finding a difference with the spring allergies using a mask. So that aspect might encourage people.

      I’m going to be honest, with my claustrophobia, I have issues. I wear my masks because its required. But, there are times in the supermarket I have to find a corner, remove it and do some deep breathing. I’ve had both vaccinations.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, I hear you on the plexi-glass. There’s no disadvantage to that AFAIK and it helps to protect both employees and customers, so I hope they stay. I also hope that stores will keep offering sanitizer to customers.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I saw people around here wearing masks long before Covid hit. I actually like having my nose warmed in the cold weather.
      I do think that the days are GONE where we thought mask wearers were weird. That is over. However, we will always have a percentage of people who will not don a mask no matter what.
      I think we will do what we always have done, we are this mixed bag of responses to any given thing. And so this is how it will go with mask wearing also.
      I do think stores will routinely carry masks now. Maybe not as many and definitely not all the varieties we see now but it will become a staple item for drug stores, grocery stores etc., for years to come.

    16. Esmeralda*

      I work with undergraduates at a large university with an active Greek Life. I’m wearing a mask during flu season for the rest of my life.

      Even in the Before Times I joked that college students are disease vectors… Don’t get me wrong, I love working with them — it’s the best part of my job — but man, they live unhealthy lives…

    17. Maggie*

      Frankly, I would not wear a mask at work unless it was required. I do mask in 100% accordance with my state mandate and always respect business rules. But I dont want to do this forever. I find it beyond depressing not to be able to smile or be smiled at. For now it is fine, I do not at all want to be a permanent addition to office life.

    19. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think it will be context dependent from now on. I hope some businesses continue to provide employees with masks for their own safety (airborne pollutants). I think there are quite a few jobs that should have been wearing some protection all along like construction works, gardeners, janitors, etc.; and pre-pandemic, I was actually already accustomed to seeing nail salon employees wearing a paper mask (when working with acrylic nails I think — I don’t usually have finger nails done just pedi). I also live in a smoggy area of the US and would like to see it widely acceptable to wear a mask on especially bad air quality days.

      For illness, I think it’ll still be hit and miss — sneezing and coughing doesn’t necessarily mean contagious and I’m not sure eliminating all exposure to minor illnesses is in our best interest in the long run. I’ll be THRILLED if hand washing continues — I’m astounded and disgusted by how many people would skip such basic hygiene pre-pandemic.

    20. CatMintCat*

      I am a teacher working in the germ factory that is a primary school in Australia. Winter illness is a fact of life when working with small children. Masks never made an appearance in my town as we have seen three cases of Covid in total, all last April.

      Last winter, without masks, but with regular handwashing and sanitising of desks and other workspaces, I did not even get a sniffle. Attendance stats among staff and children show that it was the healthiest winter in a long, long time.

      We are planning to keep these things as part of our routine in the classroom.

    21. Sara without an H*

      Personally, I’m going to keep mine. Although I’m pretty good about getting a flu shot every year, this is the first winter in ages where I haven’t caught a cold. And when I say “cold,” I don’t mean a lady-like case of the sniffles. I always get big, vicious, mutated colds. If wearing a mask helps me avoid that, I’m going to keep wearing a mask.

  34. Paris Geller*

    I submitted this as a question but it was several months ago so I think it’s safe to throw it out to the commenters:

    I am a public librarian at a small branch library. We are a small team and most of my coworkers have been here 10+ years. I have a great branch manager so this branch in particular sees less turnover than the library system as a whole. I have been here three years. One of my coworkers, we’ll call her Jane, has been showing some concerning signs recently. Jane is an older woman, and she’s always been a little forgetful, but in the past six months, it’s gotten. . . bad. Like, real bad. Jane forgets how to do procedures she has done multiple times a week for the past several years. If you ask her about something in the morning, she will not remember the conversation in the afternoon. She makes frequent mistakes in her work, to the point where it constantly has to be redone.

    Obviously, these signs are very concerning. I don’t know what’s going on and I don’t want to armchair diagnose or speculate, but I am worried and do not know what to do. I know the root of the issue could be lots of things: medical, pandemic stress, etc., and I try to be compassionate to Jane without prying, since that’s really none of my business.

    This issue is two-fold: one, I am concerned about Jane as a human being. She is a widow and while she has adult children, none live nearby. As mentioned above, I’m trying to keep the human impulse from speculating out of the issue, but I do think this is pertinent information to the situation. Two, while I am worried and concerned, Jane’s behavior is greatly impacting our work. I would say in an average week I spend a good 4-6 hours redoing or going over work with Jane, and I know everyone else on the team is spending about the same amount of time.

    I am not Jane’s supervisor but I am the person in charge in absence of the branch manager, so quite frequently Jane works closely with me and sometimes she does work on projects or tasks specifically for me/ reports to me on certain days.

    1. Picard*

      I think SOMEONE needs to say SOMETHING, but who and to whom, I dont know. :(

      I’m curious to how others would handle this…

    2. Sariel*

      Have you spoken to your branch manager about this? Framing a conversation and coming from a place of concern, not complaint, could be helpful. And, your manager may have no idea. It seems like a lot of people are having issues with short-term memory, etc. due to COVID-related stress (meaning, even if you don’t get COVID, you can still be stressed enough to start getting a bit foggy from time to time). However, it seems that Jane may be having some issues that not only are causing concern with her colleagues (as well as extra time re-explaining or re-doing work), but this is probably affecting Jane’s customer service. If Jane is unsure about something a customer is asking, and it’s then a situation where another staff member is jumping in and helping, then that doesn’t look good.
      As a library manager, if this was happening and I had not picked up on it myself already, I would want staff to come to me with their concerns. It’s not malicious — it sounds like you like Jane. But, this is affecting workflow and also customer service. So, again, coming from a place of compassion and concern, letting your branch manager know is what I suggest. Your manager may have already started to notice what’s happening with Jane, in which case your concerns will back up your manager’s observations. If not, then it’s still good to bring it to your manager’s attention — because the manager is the one who will have to approach Jane about this. Hope this helps.

      1. Paris Geller*

        I have and she is aware. I know there are things going on behind the scenes that I may be unaware of, so I’m not sure what steps the branch manager has taken or is taking. I originally brought up my concerns with our branch manager after one night where Jane closed with me and she was supposed to go through the closing procedures–she asked me what she should do, even though she’s been doing the same procedures for 10+ years. There had been signs before that, but that’s when I got really concerned.

        1. Sariel*

          Thanks – that info helps! I’m sure your manager is working on something to either address this and/or help Jane. So, in the interim, maybe it could help if you asked Jane if she’s doing ok —- like “Hey, I’ve noticed you’ve been unsure of this procedure even though we’ve gone over it a few times. Is everything okay? Or is there another way I could be explaining this or writing down the steps?” That can open up a conversation in an empathetic way, so Jane knows you are concerned and not critical. I’ve sometimes approached someone this way (even if the issue with them is driving me a little batty).

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I recommend you talk to Jane’s supervisor and tell her all this. Jane’s supervisor needs to have the difficult conversation with Jane and tell her (1) her work has slipped and needs to return to a higher level (2) I’m concerned about you and that this could be a health problem.

      Second part is harder, but I do think it’s worth telling Jane her forgetfulness is quite bad and if she were a family member manager would urge her to see a doctor. In this disconnected pandemic world Jane may not be aware of the problem especially with forgetfulness hinting at a cognitive problem and she may not be seing friends and family as much or at all. I think that is the kind thing to do.

    4. meyer lemon*

      Ooh, yes, Jane should be made aware of this. It could be a sign of dementia (or other health issues). If I were you, I think I would be inclined to mention something to her out of concern for her health. She may find it embarrassing to hear, but I’d feel bad if she didn’t realize and let a health condition worsen unnecessarily. It’s possible that if the boss only addresses this from a work perspective, she may not really consider the health side of it–of course, that depends on the boss’s approach.

      1. Ashley*

        You could frame it in terms of the crazy year and everyone is struggling to make it a little less like arm chair diagnosis but if you have a decent relationship. I would probably mention to her with a lead in of I have a question for you and you can tell me it is none of my business and I won’t bring it up again.

    5. ferrina*

      I would start with Jane. Talk to her first, as a friend. “I noticed that she’s been more forgetful recently and this is unlike you. Have you talked to a doctor? If there’s something medical, I think there are medications or supplements that can help.”
      This is only one conversation, and the goal is to make her aware of the problem and make the doctor a friendly option. You don’t want to say something like “I think you are getting dementia,” because that can be scary enough that people will avoid going to the doctor. After that, the ball is in her court.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I’d really love to see Alison’s answer to this because I am sure it comes up often enough that it could be relevant to people.

      I think you are a very considerate coworker, OP. Since these situations are tricky, I’d assume this will go on for a while longer before it’s addressed.

      1. Been There*

        Seconding this, I went through a similar experience where “Jane” was my boss and I had no idea how to handle it. Everyone I reached out to for advice was either completely stumped or had very polarizing ideas about if I should say anything, what I should say and who I should say it to. I ultimately left that job without saying anything to escape the stress and dysfunction but part of me still worries if that was the right choice and if my “Jane” ever got the help she needed. Some expert advice on what to do could have really helped both myself and possibly my “Jane”.

  35. Forkeater*

    Words of wisdom for someone starting to freelance? My employer is going through financial issues so I reached out to my contacts for freelancing gigs just in case. I did get a small project from a previous employer that I’m wrapping up now (while I still have my full time job). I think I’d eventually like to freelance full time. What should I be thinking about now as I start down this path?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Set up your accounting sooner rather than later. A friend created an excel sheet for calculating taxes (including social security and medicare) and that’s been a lifesaver. PAY QUARTERLY. I made a mistake years ago of not depositing quarterly taxes and the penalties can be a stunner. Remember that you have to pay the employer portion of social security and price your services accordingly. Also, health care is mega-expensive, so also keep that in mind.

    2. Gig Worker*

      I ended up having to create my own corporation to avoid any whiff that I might be an employee. Companies were getting audited. A Corp-to-Corp contract allowed me to get more jobs. Also, realize that you’ll be spending a significant amount of time drumming up business. You may have feast or famine issues where you go for awhile with no or few gigs and then work like crazy, afraid to turn down work. And as the other poster said, bookkeeping is key.

      1. Forkeater*

        Thanks! How do you create a corporation- are there resources I can start reading now to plan for when I want to do that?

        I’ll be old enough to take distributions from my 401k in about ten years, I’m thinking that could help balance feast/famine periods.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It’s been a while since I freelanced, but one thing I created right away was a general contract template and standard invoice that stipulated, among other things, payment terms and what the scope of work entailed (how many proofs/revisions, what the client was entitled to — working files, notes and unused ideas, full copyright to everything, or just the finished printed/digital work and a license to reproduce, etc.) You may want a lawyer to help you with this or try to find a good template source online and customize it for you. Even if you completely trust your clients, this will definitely help everyone get on the same page before problems arise.

    4. nep*

      You might get some help / tips from city or county chamber of commerce.
      I hadn’t really thought of that till I had to get a Doing Business As for a contract job I was applying to.
      All the best. I’ll be interested to read responses here.

  36. Jess*

    My (she/her) 18 year old child (they/them) just got hired and fired from their first job in a period of 2 weeks. That’s a long story of chronic lateness and adhd life that they thought would magically fix itself once they were getting paid to be on time, but I’ve been trying hard to take Allison’s advice about not being more invested in their job than they are and offering advice/assistance (mostly) only when they ask. My question is this: I told them not to list this job on applications. They were only there 2 weeks so it’s not like they gained any skills, and listing that they were fired is going to make it much more difficult to get another job. Is that ok? Also general advice for helping a young adult figure out how to manage adhd in an unaccommodating world would be awesome, maybe they’ll listen to not-me about it

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I think that’s incorrect. She shouldn’t list the job for all the reasons you mention on her resume which is a marketing document.

      For applications if they ask for all previous jobs (as many do), she should list it. Then you can play the will they find out game, but if they clearly ask for all previous jobs and they find out she left one of, she can be branded a liar.

      If an application ask for relevant jobs or experience, definitely leave it off.

      1. JohannaCabal*

        Even with applications, I’d be hesitant to mention a two-week job unless it’s for a job with law enforcement, fed/state/local government, healthcare, or banking. I know it’s unethical but most companies, especially small companies won’t have the time to verify all the information on a candidate and many won’t have access to a candidate’s full work history anyway.

    3. Qwerty*

      Have you checked out the comment section from yesterday’s post about chronic lateness? A lot of people weighed on their experience and how they manage their ADHD, so it that might be relevant to share.

      Agreed on not listing the job on their resume. It just draws attention to how short their tenure was and will lead to questions about why.

    4. Zephy*

      I agree with you, your child doesn’t need to list this job on their resume for the reasons you stated. They could not possibly have accomplished anything worth talking about in just 2 weeks. And, unless they’re applying for a government job, no future employer ever needs to know about it, because I think they would struggle to construct a positive narrative around the whole experience in an interview.

      I know and love a lot of grown adult people living with ADHD/ADD. They all have different ways of managing their particular hellbrain and its quirks, but for a number of them, they’ve found medication to be helpful. If you or your child aren’t into that idea for whatever reason, that’s 100% valid, but it may be worth at least talking or doing some research about.

      The comments on yesterday’s ask the reader question about chronic lateness may also be helpful to peruse, if you missed that – the LW there didn’t explicitly say they were living with ADHD, but if that’s not their specific problem then it sure rhymes with a lot of struggles that people who do have ADHD diagnoses in the comments identified with. The key point I took away from reading that discussion is that your child needs to figure out why they’re late – is it time blindness, do they have problems with transitioning from one task to another, is it an organizational issue, is it a combination of any or all of those things? Figuring out the crux of the issue will inform the best way to address it.

    5. ferrina*

      For the ADHD- have you read Driven to Distraction by Edward Hallowell? I cannot recommend it enough! It has great anecdotes about how ADHD can affect professional paths and some strategies around that.

      Because ADHD is so individualized, your kid might need to go through several strategies before they find one that really works for them. Don’t think of being fired as failing- think of it as an experiment. What happened this time didn’t work- what can I try next time? The key is to make it safe to try differently, and that strategies that would work for neuro-typical workers won’t work the same way for neuro-atypical workers.

      I’m ADHD, and I have (what looks like) terrible work habits. I’m out of my seat every 15 minutes, constantly watching YouTube, change my way of tracking my projects every 3-4 months. And I am an exceptionally high performer. My trick is that I need stimulation. I need to front-load my projects because that’s when my interest is highest, so I set up structures in the first few weeks that makes it easy to coast for the rest of the project (when my interest wanes). I have to vary my project tracking in order to ensure I follow the system- by refreshing the system every few months, it keeps it interesting to me. I get up a lot during the day because it keeps me stimulated and I do my best thinking while I’m on my feet.

      Your kid will need to find what their trick is. That takes practice, and that takes trial and error. And it takes *bravery*. It’s scary to try new things not knowing if they will fail. They will need to forge their own path. They will need resilience.

      I also recommend leaning in to their strengths. I’m amazing at multi-tasking and I like people, so I’m a project manager. I’ve also been really good at being a barista (particularly during rush hour) and being a childcare provider. I suck at heavily detailed documentation, so I will NEVER be a copy-editor. When I do something that requires copy-editing, I have to give myself 2x-3x as long as what I think it will be.

      Good luck to both of you!

  37. Purely Allegorical*

    First time posting on an open thread — q about salary negotiation:

    I’ve been at ToxicJob for 3 years and have a conditional offer to leave for NewJob. NewJob requires a clearance, for which I’ve been processing over the last couple months; I’ve stayed at ToxicJob while the clearance is processing and don’t intend to leave until I get word that my clearance has come through. (I cannot start at NewJob until it does.) New Job offered me a salary about 25% more than what I’m making at ToxicJob.

    However, I was just promoted this month at ToxicJob. It’s not enough to make me stay (nothing would be!) but is that something I could use to negotiate a higher salary with NewJob than what I negotiated back at the conditional stage? (NewJob’s offer is now only about 16% better.) 

    If it matters, NewJob was very resistant to any negotiating in the first place because they have very strict salary bands — I was only able to get them to come up $1K. I have a feeling that if I push for more, they’ll say I need to be a higher title with more responsibility — but I had been targeting this particular title specifically because of the less responsibility so I can recover from burnout at ToxicJob.
    Thoughts on how to frame this? (The industry is consulting for federal contracts, so not a direct gov job but funded by them.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t know… it sounds like (a) you already accepted their offer, and (b) your renegotiation would be related to changes at your existing job, not the new job. And considering (c) you already pushed pretty hard (and good on you for that), I think you’re probably not going to have any success.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t think I would. Presumably you accepted the current offer because you thought it was a fair rate for the job. NewJob hasn’t changed, why would the offer?

      I might be more open to the idea of renegotiating if they didn’t seem so opposed to it in the first go-round. I think they’d see this as a bad faith effort on your part.

    3. ConfusedinCO*

      You risk NewJob saying they can’t match/won’t negotiate again, and you should just stay at ToxicJob (especially since they were resistant to negotiating in the first place). That’s a really quick way to get your bluff called, and that’s sort of bad-faith negotiation on your part. If I was a hiring manager and someone did that, it would leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth before you even started. (Also, NewJob is still the better offer. If NewJob was now lower, there’d be more a reason to try this).

    4. Asenath*

      I don’t think I’d try to renegotiate before you’ve even started the new job! You accepted their offer, and re-opening it on that basis wouldn’t look good. They might also say that they can’t up their offer (you say they have strict salary bands) and if you have changed your mind about their offer, you should stay at ToxicJob – which you don’t want to do.

    5. Lizy*

      I’d say leave it be. You already accepted salary $x. Asking for more when you already negotiated seems in bad taste.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      It sounds like, as other have said, you accepted the job. To go back and ask for more now would look pretty bad and if they are like many government employers, they may not negotiate.

    7. Purely Allegorical*

      Thanks all for the perspective. The only nuance here is the difference between the conditional offer (which is what we negotiated and I accepted months and months ago) and the official offer (which is what they’ll give me after my clearance comes through). The NewJob themselves have said they distinguish between a conditional and an official offer, so I’m seeing them as two different things and was wondering if that meant i could negotiate again at the official offer stage.

      But i think I agree with you all that it wouldn’t be the best idea.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Sorry, didn’t scroll down far enough to see this. It looks like they gave you a contingent offer, which means that either they bid for a contract and the job is contingent upon New Job winning the award, or the job is pending your clearance, because they can’t hire you without one (in order to work on that particular contract).

        Either way, most federal contracts don’t allow big negotiations the way private industry can. The amount of money per contract is normally fixed, so New Job has to work with what they have. See below. (I write some of my company’s proposals for government contracts.)

    8. Mockingjay*

      Since New Job bills to a federal contract, the salary bands tie to government rates for labor categories (job titles). On top of that, most contracts these days are some form of cost plus fee, so there may not be much wiggle room for extras, such as salary increases. That “fee” is the profit which goes into benefits, infrastructure, bonuses, raises, etc. (Your labor category pay is covered at the government rate as cost.)

      You are correct that you’ll have to come in at a higher position to get more money, but 1) you must meet the next higher labor category requirements to do so, and 2) that higher labor category has to be available for that contract. Labor categories are assigned on work required. For example, the program might only need a junior accountant, so there’s no way to bring in someone senior. Other programs might need Engineer I, II, and III.

      The nice thing about federal contracts and task orders is that these must be funded and renewed periodically (some are yearly), which will give you another chance to negotiate for a raise or promotion. By then you should be established at New Job with a good record of performance.

      TL;DR: New Job was honest about they could give you now, but should you still take the job, there will be opportunities for increases/promotions on the next contract.

      1. Purely Allegorical*

        Thank you this is very helpful context! And you’re absolutely right about the work being tied to a specific contract, NewJob won that contract back in Jan or Feb so presumably the work on it has been going forward even though I’m not on board yet. A friend who works there told me it’s not uncommon for the clearance process to take long enough that by the time i’m ready to start, the original contract won’t need me anymore and they’ll have to move me over to a different one.

  38. Clover*

    Has anyone on here changed careers from content marketing to web development? If so, I’m curious how long it took and your path/training to get there.

    I’ve been with my company for seven years (started when I was 22), and am just desperately ready for a change. I started as a receptionist/billing assistant, then worked my way into helping the marketing department with content creation, copyediting, and updating our website. It’s WordPress, so all I usually do is update or create pages and add content, and occasionally submit tickets to our agency that manages our theme and hosting. There isn’t a need for a full-time web developer at my current job, so right now I’m volunteering to take on any work involving our website, but also teaching myself on my own time.

    I discovered I loved coding when my company went through a branding refresh. I recoded all of our email templates and landing pages and made them responsive.

    Right now I’m working through FreeCodeCamp’s responsive web development curriculum, and I just started on the final projects. I have to learn Javascript next, but I feel like I can get comfortable with it in three or four months. Besides the big three (HTML, CSS, Javascript), and a website + portfolio, what else do I need to know to get my foot in the door as a frontend developer (or am I completely off base here)?

    1. Four Leaf Clover*

      …annnd I just realized there’s another commenter on here with the name “clover.” Whoever you are – sorry! St. Patty’s day was on my mind :(

    2. Qwerty*

      When you say Javascript, do you mean pure Javascript or something like Angular/React? Most front-end jobs that I’ve seen are moving away from pure Javascript and into Angular or React. I’d checkout the job postings in your area to figure out whether Angular or React is more useful for your career – both languages have a lot of online resources. Angular tends to get paired with a Microsoft/.Net/C# backend whereas React tends to get paired with a Java backend.

      Make sure that you are learning about how to write effective tests and know the difference between unit tests / end to end testing! This tends to get glossed over a lot, but is hugely valuable for a junior dev.

      Based on your background, do any of the following sound like something you’d be willing to do? Since you’ll be self-taught with no professional programming experience, you might have luck with selling yourself as a well-rounded person who will continue to grow as a developer.
      – UX design
      – Technical writing / documentation (Most teams have terrible documentation but they are starting to express gratitude to people who help with that)
      – QA Testing (One of my jobs had roughly half the testers eventually move into full dev roles)

      1. Four Leaf Clover*

        I was thinking pure Javascript since it’s the next certification in FreeCodeCamp, but I should look into Angular and React. Thanks for the heads-up about testing!

        Of the three areas you mentioned, I’ve thought about technical writing and QA testing. I have a BA in English and took a few classes in technical writing, plus I write all the time in my current job (although a very different type of writing).

        Thank you for your suggestions, these are helpful!

        1. QA Analyst*

          Current QA–at my company we have had former QA analysts go on to be devs, ITops/webops, product managers, project managers, account managers.

          You may also want to look at listings for Automation Engineer/QA Automation Engineer–a lot of the automation my team works with is javascript based selenium.

    3. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Welcome to front-end dev! I love this work.

      Find a open source project to get involved with! That will make your résumé a lot more impressive than any bootcamp or personal project, not least because it shows you can do version control, which is essential.

      I think it’s really valuable to learn vanilla JavaScript before you learn jquery or any of the more modern frameworks, so you know what’s going on under the hood. You definitely need CSS, but I can’t remember having seen a job posting in the last several years that wasn’t for SCSS/SASS rather than just CSS. Similarly, you’re going to encounter some kind of templating language pretty soon, whether PHP/Twig in the WordPress/Drupal sphere, or whatever the system is at your next place.

      A front-end dev will often have to interact with designs, so knowing the basics of photoshop or sketch.app will make your life a lot easier.

  39. Dog Coordinator*

    Does anyone have any advice on doing a presentation during an interview? I’m on my 4th interview since October for a job with a company that I really want to work with. The presentation is a “training” presentation, since part of the job will be training others on how to use the software that the company produces.

    They’d like me to train them on my favorite app or something of that nature. My current job involves a scheduling software (similar to what the company I’m interviewing with makes, but in a different industry and on a much more polished scale). It would definitely parallel the work I would do in the new job I’m gunning for! My current employer doesn’t know that I’m interviewing. Would it be in bad taste or a violation of my current job to “train” the interviewers on the software I use currently? I would definitely make sure that no client information is visible. I can’t think of any other apps I use that I could train anyone on (like I can’t train people on candy crush or another silly phone game). Any suggestions?

    1. HopingForBetter*

      In the higher ed environment, this would not be in bad taste at all. In fact, one of my most recent interview prompts for a job talk actually said “you can base this around a project you worked on in your current position.”

      If you’d like other ideas, though, you could think about demonstrating a productivity app, how to optimize your calendar in GSuite/Outlook/etc., or how to use iMovie or other video editing apps.

      Overall, though, when I’m thinking about job talk prompts, I try to remember that interviewers are often evaluating how you tackled the topic, how you’re teaching it, how you prepared – in other words, not in *what* you’re teaching. My advice is not to get too hung up on the content! Pick an app you’re comfortable with and focus most of your energy into developing a talk that showcases your ability to train people and impart knowledge.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Right, I care less about ‘what you present on’ and more about ‘how you present it.” One of my friends did a business school position presentation on entirely free mortgage analysis tools from the internet. She didn’t have access to the fancy paid software and they loved the presentation.

    2. Emilitron*

      Completely good taste to train in software you currently use, BUT only if that software is available to the public. If it’s software developed by your company for your company’s employees that is not released outside the organization, it might be proprietary software, in which case there would be IP legal concerns.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        That’s a good point. I would also add – if the only way you have to access this software is by using your company login or using your company laptop, then it’s not a good idea to use that, either. If there’s some sort of trial version available online, then go for it, but don’t use anything associated with your current employer, even to access it.

    3. Esmeralda*

      Be sure that your presentation is all or almost all actually doing the training. Do not do what waaaaayyyy too many of our candidates do, which is to tell us what they would do, rather than just doing it. They go right to the bottom of the ranking when that happens and have to spectacularly fabulous at some other key piece to overcome that sort of disaster. Because first of all, they didn’t do what we asked them to do. And second, now we have no idea how good they are at training/teaching.

      You can certainly frame it up with an intro that explains BRIEFLY why you’re taking X or Y approach. And be ready to answer questions as to why you did ABC and not CAB — be able to talk about how you plan a training, what factors you take into account, how you handle typical problems faced by trainees, etc.

  40. Amber Rose*

    Interview pro-tip: take a minute to go to the website of the company you’ve applied for so that if you get asked, “what do you know about Llamas Inc” your answer isn’t “not much.” That’s a terrible answer no matter what.

    Anyways.

    Taking a few days off did not help my stress at all.

    Rather than getting more used to it, the longer Covid goes the more burned out and sick from stress I become. I keep waking up screaming from nightmares in which the building keeps shifting around me and I can’t get out.

    2. Binky*

      Ugh, I sort of did that earlier this week. I thought I was having a conversation with an outside recruiter (she’s the one who contacted me) who would tell me more about the company/opportunity, but instead I spoke with an inside recruiter. I had done a bit of googling, but not enough to give a coherent response. I felt very not great about it.

      Hugs on the nightmares.

    3. allathian*

      You have my sympathy in dealing with the nightmare. I’ve had similar ones, only I was in a maze where the walls kept moving around, like in Harry Potter. I’d wake up in a cold sweat. When the situation that was causing me stress got resolved, the nightmares disappeared.

    4. pancakes*

      For the nightmares: Try sleeping colder. Open the window more, wear lighter pajamas, try one less blanket on the bed, etc. Every time I’ve had a bad nightmare, in hindsight, I was too warm.

  41. Anon for this here post*

    I was talking to my coworker “Fergus” about something (nothing “gossip” related, just about a part-time worker in another building leaving their position). Fergus then goes,” Shhhhhhhh…. Don’t talk so loudly!” I was surprised. I asked if he knew this information and he replied, “Of course I know!”

    The kicker? Fergus is a big gossip- it’s sort of the “inside joke” in our office.

    I’m confused though- was he just trying to be funny about me telling him this stuff?

    1. Weekend Please*

      It’s possible that he was told to gossip less and so didn’t want the boss to overhear.

  42. Very Tired and Nauseous Lone Wolf*

    So, any ideas on how to put together a maternity coverage plan when your team is…just you? I’m in a new role (And it’s awesome!) with an employer I’ve been with for >5 years and I’m also pregnant, but pretty early. My new supervisors, of which there are 2 official and 1 unofficial, don’t know and won’t for at least another 6-8 weeks. I’ve read all the advice about making sure there’s a coverage plan for leave and setting expectations, but the thing is – my new job is literally just me. As in, there’s a remote site program which is only me working for it and my supervisors are all at the regional level. So how am I supposed to set up a coverage plan, when there’s no one to cover? Note: I also don’t control my own budget, so “hire my own replacement” isn’t entirely viable, and our outcomes/goals are set by the umbrella org. Does anyone have any experience with this, or have suggested ways to say, “Everything is going to be on hold for 3 months” to multiple supervisors?

    1. Kaiko*

      How long are you planning to be out for? I’m Canadian, so our norms and laws are different, but I think most people plan for 6 weeks in the US? Are you planning for 12?

      I am also the sole person in my role, and when I went out five years ago, I took a full month away, and then a month at ten hours a week remote; they hired someone on short-term contract to fill the spot. You might want to ask what the norm is, especially with other places the umbrella org funds – they might have some interesting solutions you could deploy.

      1. Carol*

        You’re given a minimum of 6 weeks of unpaid leave + job protection through FMLA for a traditional birth, up to 12 total in a calendar year for FMLA for any qualified reason. So that’s where 6 and 12 come from.

        Most people I personally know plan on 12 weeks due to that being the max job protection FMLA affords, as long as they can afford that time out of work. Whether they take that as paid, unpaid, or short-term disability funded leave is entirely dependent on their benefits packages, if they exist.

      2. Very Tired and Nauseous Lone Wolf*

        I’d like to take 14 weeks (At 12 I’d be starting back full time a week before we’re all out for the winter holidays, so why not just come back right after with everyone else), but I’m open to doing one day or two mornings/afternoons a week from home starting at 6 weeks if it meant making sure things don’t entirely crash and burn. Thank you for the note about trying to get creative! I think we’ll have to be.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Congrats! This is a situation for you and your manager(s) to work through together, not for you to completely solve on their own. When you’re ready to tell them it would be good to have some suggestions ready on how to handle things, but it’s up to them whether they want to bring in a temp, temporarily assign coverage to themselves/bring in a different colleague, or leave things on hold while you’re gone.

      1. Very Tired and Nauseous Lone Wolf*

        Thank you! And thank you for the reassurance. You’re very right. I’m just that person who tends to think that I have to make everything work for everyone all at once, which in this instance is leaving me a big ball of stress and hoping that there was some sort of magic solution I hadn’t found yet. (“But what if they’re disappointed in me?!??!” is not an uncommon phrase in my house right now. It drives my therapist up a wall.)

  43. Anonymous At-risk*

    I posted last week about being at risk for severe Covid but not meeting state criteria for a vaccine. As an update in case everyone cares, I signed up! My state now has a “don’t call us, we’ll call you” stance so I’ve heard nothing yet beyond the initial confirmation email. My coworkers have been getting it left and right by saying they’re healthcare. Any suggestions for how to deal with feeling salty about that?

    1. Escaped a Work Cult*

      I’m not sure what your experience is but the local hospital system may have a different order than what the state is rolling out. If your local system is offering sign up notifications, I urge you to do so. This is how I got my appointment and I’m telling everyone to try. I apologize if it comes off as too pushy.

      As for the salty, all I can say is you’re not alone in feeling this way. Punch a pillow, write some rude things, get a cry session going are my usual go-to’s.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Your coworkers being vaccinated also helps protect you (assuming you’re working in-person), if that helps.

    3. Weekend Please*

      I’m not sure what state you are in, but in many states the state/county lists are only used for mass vaccination sites while pharmacies are handling their own sign up. It may be worth checking if the pharmacies and hospitals around you have their own wait lists. I managed to get my husband vaccinated (he met the eligibility criteria) before his grandmother got vaccinated because I put him on every wait list I could find, including small local pharmacies while his grandmother just signed up for the county list (we weren’t aware that was all she did until after he got vaccinated). He was only one the waitlist at the one pharmacy for two weeks before he was called. They are tiny and don’t get many doses but I think most people aren’t bothering with the little guys and focus on the state lists and rite aid.

      1. Anonymous At-risk*

        Thanks for the suggestions! I called my local (chain) pharmacies today. One major branch isn’t doing any vaccinations in my area and the other is, though they don’t offer any type of sign-up/waitlist and unfortunately every time I’ve looked over the past weeks there have been no free appointments. These are all major branches though. I don’t know of any small pharmacies at all in my area (major metropolitan area) that have vaccines (based on their web pages). I think a major issue I’m having is that I have no car and so going to another state or even more than a few miles in my own state isn’t happening. Again, I live in a city; this shouldn’t be an issue and I live within walking distance of several state vaccination sites, but I don’t think I have options outside of state and chain pharmacy sites.

    4. Kathenus*

      I obviously don’t know where you live but near me we’re recommended to register everywhere we can – with the state/city/etc., individual hospitals and health systems, through resources like vaccinespotter-dot-org, etc. I live near a state line, our state is a nightmare especially near me for access but the neighboring state is much easier and doses provided by the federal government (for example Walgreens/Walmart) versus local government can be given to out of state residents who are eligible as well. So once I became eligible I would have had to drive 2-3 hours each way to find a vaccine, whereas I crossed state lines and found multiple options less than a half hour away. Your situation may not have these options but hopefully you can reach out and get registered/check as widely as possible and help find a quicker solution. Good luck.

  44. Escaped a Work Cult*

    My micromanaging boss keeps delaying hiring administration help that I’ve been doing because he wants to focus on hiring employees who work in the teapot industry. I’m working as a PM and while admin is part of the job, I didn’t sign up for this level to take over my job. I have an upcoming performance review and I have no idea how to calmly discuss how important this is to me without overly sounding like I’m going to quit.

    I’m also nervous about leaving because my past work experiences since leaving college has been retail for a year, the work cult for 15 months, and now a year at teapot agency. While PMs tend to have different timelines, I’m afraid of this coming off as a pattern. Help!

  45. Surprised Pikachu Face*

    Found out today that our departments’s super awesome assistant J is leaving and will be gone after like 9 days notice :( She and I worked closely in the same department but different supervisors/teams. So let’s say we’re in Llama Industries: J’s in General Llama Care while I’m in the specialized branch of Llama Shearing.

    I’m in the same assistant level as J and we have some overlap in duties, where I took over some of duties once I started and consult with her often since she’s been here the longest. But now I’m somewhat terrified that all of her responsibilities will fall to me when I’m not super familiar with her team because I’m another assistant? I have a vague general idea of General Llama Care stuff but I’ve been hyperfocused and trained on my own team’s stuff which keeps me more than busy enough. Yet we’re a small department so I’m not sure who else will be assigned her job duties than me when everyone else is also swamped with work.

    I only have 1 more week till J’s gone – so what should I do? I’m planning on asking her some follow up questions for a task she asked me to take over last week but I’m not sure what to ask her for training-wise? Since I’m not fully sure what J’s boss wants to give me vs. giving the work to someone else. Would it be wise to bring up J’s departure with her boss, framing it like “so J’s leaving, would that mean you’ll be assigning me additional job duties till we hire a replacement?” or is it better to wait for J’s boss to approach me?

    1. twocents*

      I’d ask my boss if J’s impending departure should have any impact on me, but I’m also not in a role where outside managers can dump stuff on me.

    2. ConfusedinCO*

      I wouldn’t volunteer to take on more work :). Seems too likely they will put off hiring her replacement/never do so if they think you can take on her duties.

    4. Malika*

      You seem to work in a different department so this shouldn’t be a problem. You can point out to your manager that you have no room for additional duties as a pre-emptive strike.

  46. twocents*

    I’m thinking this week about workplace nicknames / reputation that precedes people.

    A couple of examples from my own workplace:
    — Pre-COVID, I once worked near someone who got the nickname The Plague. He was constantly coughing and sneezing; the one time I had to sit by him for a day, he made so much noise I went home with a migraine. It’s been years but I have seen him once interview in my building, and saw someone say to the hiring manager, “oh yes that’s the guy we called the plague.” He didn’t get the job.

    — A co-worker this week got declined for a position they really wanted. I got a really messy explanation but what I distilled it down to the facts is that they have a reputation for being difficult and combative. The hiring manager has not appreciated the way that their team has been treated by this employee in the past and didn’t want to hire them based on that. Said coworker was complaining to me about it not being fair to be declined from a job because the person doesn’t like you.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Not fair to be declined because the person doesn’t like you . . . Does co-worker understand how the world works? No, don’t answer that.

    2. Jaid*

      Something I saw on Reddit’s AITA was OP asking if she would be one if she discouraged a friend from hiring the OP’s sister and telling him why. Sister could do the work, but had had multiple workplace affairs and drama followed her like a bad stink.

      She ended up merely telling the friend that she really couldn’t recommend her sister. Friend turned out to have already heard the rumors and this was just the icing on the cake.

      There was some discussion about shaming the sister and how it takes two to have an affair, but most people were like, even if Sister could do the job, it wasn’t worth having to work around her…

    3. Cowgirlinhiding*

      Your reputation will follow you. It is true we shouldn’t discriminate against anyone, but if you are difficult to work with or have a habit that irritates people enough to give you a nickname, that is going to follow you within the company without some kind of huge change.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Right. If coworker is difficult and combative, it’s a no-brainer that no one who knows this upfront would want to bring that bad vibe to their team.

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      I think your reputation always counts. I’ve been asked “did you work with so-and-so when you were at Acme Inc? What are they like?”
      At one job that I’d been at only a couple months, I worked with a particularly prickly person I’ll call Pat, who was technically competent but didn’t know how to ask for what they needed/wanted. Think accusatory, blaming, complaining, indignant. I got a call from a former coworker – Pat had just applied at that person’s company. On paper Pat looked great. I told my former coworker what Pat was like to work with on an ongoing basis. Pat didn’t even get an interview.

      As much as I would have loved it if Pat had left, I also wouldn’t want to dump Pat on a former colleague.

  47. Don’t be proud of me*

    How to deal with “pride” from fellow students.
    It’s become very en vogue in my cohort (professional health program, year 1) for some classmates to post inspirational messages via social media or group chat that include descriptions of how proud they are of our class, sometimes even saying “I’m so proud of you.” They are 100% well-meaning, but I also find them very grating.

    Due to COVID, I’ve only met about 1/3 of my class ever in person, and only had meaningful interactions with a much smaller handful. They really don’t know if I’m working hard, or resilient, or amazing, and I certainly don’t feel they ought to be proud of me.

    I know my bristling at this is misplaced, so I’m looking for advice at how to sigh and move on, and let these roll off my back.

    The main “inspirational speakers” are muted on my socials, but I really can’t quit the group chat because it often includes really useful information, and also sometimes funny memes about our professors.

    1. twocents*

      Think of it like “Merry Christmas” when you don’t celebrate the holiday or “God bless you” when you’re an atheist. (The latter being a personal irritant.)

      I look at the intent — generic well wishing usually, but could be to provide comfort/support — and respond to the intent: “You’re welcome!” It doesn’t sound like these posts are requiring a response, so I’d just keep scrolling.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      This is how I feel about “I appreciate you” instead of a “Thank you.” Just bottle up the rage. Bottle it up. Push it down, waaaaaaay down. Save it for later.

      Seriously though – I imagine they have no idea how disingenuous it comes across. Try to think about it like they’re trying to create connections, with the actual intent to compliment you. Or just ignore ignore ignore.

      1. Don’t be proud of me*

        It definitely helps to think of it as an attempt at connection rather than attempt to compliment – more about them than me makes it easier for me to brush past it

        “I appreciate you” gets my goat as well!
        I’m used to ignoring and bottling this stuff in a work context, but it’s hard to have it pop up on personal devices, and with COVID and not being able to get to know people, everything just feels a bit more intense these days.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I laughed a bit because ‘pperciate you is a common thing I hear around Memphis

  48. I'm that guy*

    Our team is adding an FTE and I just found out that I am part of the team interview. What are some good generic interview questions? I work at a Biotech in Regulatory Operations, if he’s gotten this far in the process he must know his job, so I looking at more about how it works with people.

    1. twocents*

      Does your HR department not provide interview guides with suggested questions? It strikes me as odd to throw someone into interviewing with no guidance.

    2. Emilitron*

      If this is your first time interviewing, team interviews are a great way to start. You don’t have to come in with questions you plan on asking, you can follow up on other peoples questions, ask clarifying info, etc. Read his resume, and from that info try to imagine what his job was and whether that means he’d be any good at your kind of job – how big were the teams he worked with, was it collaborative or independent, were there hard deadlines with customers or broader goals, does he like tool X or tool Y, etc.

      1. JustaTech*

        If you have a chance, ask the rest of the team what *they* plan on asking the candidate, so you all don’t have the same two questions.

        A probably terrible question off the top of my head (I’m in biotech but only sometimes help out with regulatory stuff):
        What’s your strongest quality during an audit? (Good at finding material fast, great at being silent around inspectors, run a well-organized prep room) That would cover both regulatory stuff and people stuff, since audits are a high-stress even where you have to work very closely with a lot of people.

    3. a small houseplant*

      I want to know about a time something went wrong or something unexpected happened in their work.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I always try to bring 1 question with me to these and be sure to ask them to each candidate. A few I have used:
      “Describe a time when you had to work with a challenging colleague. How did you handle it?”
      “How would your coworkers describe you?”
      “What work achievements have you completed that you are most proud of?”

      If I know something specific about the job, I try to tailor the question. Like I once was part of a group interview for someone who would not be managing me, but would be organizing tasks among peers and I would be involved. So, I asked, “This job involves a lot of working with colleagues to complete goals. Can you talk about a time you had to organize a project with a group of people that you didn’t supervise? How did it go and what did you learn?”

  49. Kaiko*

    I have a weirdly specific question, but figured I should try: I am a very part-time evaluation consultant, and part of my job is interviewing clients and stakeholders. I typically like to record my interviews so I can focus on the conversation and not the transcription, but I also like to transcribe as we talk, in case things happen to the audio file. I found out on my last batch of interviews that my new phone (Android 11) doesn’t record to any app (either the native screen/audio recorder, or a third-party download) if I’m using my headphones, which I always am.

    For some client groups, I’ll be setting up Zoom calls instead, and just recording those, which is fine; for some client groups, I need a solution that will play nice with a land line. I need to be able to call them, and have them call me; many of them don’t have computers, so Zoom is out. Any thoughts?

    1. Ashley*

      I think google had a video feature through calendar invites but you can also call in from a phone.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      WebEx? I don’t know if it’s available on a small scale, I’ve only ever used it as an enterprise, but it does recording and allows call-ins from a phone number.

    3. Zoom guru*

      Zoom provides call-in numbers (I’ve used them when my Internet connected was unreliable). You just need to give the person the phone number provided and the meeting # and passcode.

  50. Anon for this one*

    So if I don’t work in the llama grooming department, but I occasionally work with the llama groomers on special projects related to llama grooming, and there’s an upcoming opening in the llama grooming department, and I’m as qualified as anyone else because most of llama grooming is taught on the job, but I’m not interested in becoming a llama groomer and do not intend to apply for this opening, it would be kind of silly for me to be slightly hurt that none of the llama groomers have asked if I’m going to apply, right?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    1. ConfusedinCO*

      Yes. There’s about a thousand reasons they wouldn’t ask if you were going to apply. None of them are reasons to be upset/hurt about.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      ha, the old two edged sword- “Please offer me something I don’t want!”

      This comes up often enough in personal and professional life. Sometimes we just want to know that people thought of us. And that really is okay. So look around, what other ways do folks show you that they thought of you in regards to something else?

    4. ferrina*

      Maybe they know that you’re not interested and they don’t want to suggest something that will make you miserable?
      Or they assumed that someone else was going to ask you about applying, so none of them actually did?
      Or they really, really wish they could poach you for llama grooming, but they know that you are an absolute rockstar at another part of your job, and they could never take you away from that as much as they wish they could, so they shouldn’t get their own hopes up by even asking you to apply?

    5. twocents*

      If it helps, I never ask about this because I don’t know what you’re going through. I figure if you want my advice (I might be closer to the hiring manager than you are), you’ll ask. Or if you just want to tell me because we’re friends, you will.

  51. Carrie Madshaw*

    So I am being pressured to apply for a promotion I do not want…and want to know how the heck to navigate this without burning bridges.

    I took a job a year ago and it’s been WAY more stressful than I anticipated. Two months ago, my boss let me know she is quitting to move to better things, but she wants to “set me up for success” by moving me into her position. I didn’t want to. I knew she had no work life balance and was incredibly stressed, but she said it would be good for my career.

    Well, in the meantime, I was promoted into a temporary role as a project lead. I learned that someone was coming to back fill my role…permanently. That means when I’m done, I either apply for my boss’s role or hope that my boss’s boss would create a new role for me. Either way, they’ve expressed wanting to keep me on, but I don’t know if I want to stay!

    It’s a “good” career move, but I’m not interested in maintaining this level of stress. Each promotion takes me away from the thing I love.

    In the meantime, I got an offer for a contract position that would start in the summer. I could go to that role full time once my temporary promotion is up.

    I am just getting all this pressure from my boss (who is on the way out) to apply for these promotions, especially now that I know my old role will be replaced. I expressed that I wasn’t sure I wanted to go that direction, but she said she will be very disappointed if I don’t and would be sad that I would pass up the opportunity to make strides (in her eyes) in my career. I guess I would apply to appease her, but I don’t want to accept. I know I’m only relatively competitive because I’m not as experienced as other candidates. AND I DONT WANT IT. I just don’t!!

    Should I apply and just do that to make folks happy? Would it be a burned bridge if I apply and (if they even got to an offer) turned it down? Or would it be better to just flat out refuse now?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      As someone who doesn’t want to be in management, at all, I’d tell her “This job has confirmed that I prefer working on teapots rather than leading a team. I’m really more interested in moving back to that role.” And don’t worry about “disappointing” her – she’s not your mother and has no right to be disappointed.

    2. twocents*

      My experience has been that whether this burns bridges depends on the specific person. I’ve declined a promotion once (the pay increase offered was insulting), but the manager was lazy and just went “meh.” If it was a manager who would have taken it as a personal insult… I think I probably would have still declined but then started job searching.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Don’t apply just to make people happy! I did that and regretted it– I wound up withdrawing from the process and ultimately they closed the position without hiring anyone. Even if I’d taken the job, I would have been miserable. I’m glad that I backed out when I did, but wished I’d never bothered in the first place.

    4. PollyQ*

      Your boss is being utterly ridiculous. “Very disappointed”?! “Sad”?!! Her feelings are irrelevant to any career choices you might make, and it’s bizarre that she’s couching things in that way. Even if she were convinced that it would be a good thing for your career, the way to make that argument is to tell you the benefits of the choice. But regardless, this is your choice to make and no one else’s. Don’t apply for a job you don’t want and wouldn’t take, do say something firm with your boss, like “I’m flattered that you think so well of me, but this isn’t a role I’m interested in moving into.” (and perhaps, “I’d rather not keep discussing this” if she doesn’t leave you alone), and if you don’t want to stay with this company, then go ahead and job hunt.

      1. should i apply?*

        Completely agree with PollyQ’s statements.
        I would also add that maybe your boss is feeling guilty about leaving and looks at this as her to feel better, knowing that there is some one to take her role over. But making her feel better isn’t a good reason to apply.

    5. Hunybee*

      Please don’t live your life for others. That is a recipe for regret. And surely you would resent being in the role and probably want to look for another job soon.

      At the very least, you can “keep forgetting” to apply while other candidates apply for the role. Passive aggressive actually can work to your advantage if you feel so pressured into this. Or, alternately, if you can’t get your boss off your back, just tell HR you’re not interested in the role and that should quell the conversation.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      What does burning bridges look like?

      In an old job I was forewarned, “If you turn down any promotion given to you, then you fall off the radar and become UNpromotable.”

      In your case, it doesn’t sound like it hurts you not to be asked to take on higher and higher levels of authority.

      I am mostly concerned about what you will do for work when you turn this down.

    7. identifying remarks removed*

      I know it’s easy to say but listen to yourself and don’t apply. I went through something similar with a role in another dept. I was really interested in the job and it would be a great career move for me but learnt from coworkers that the work/life balance is awful and management is toxic. I kept telling myself it would be fine even though my spidey senses were screaming do not apply. I ended up dropping out and have burnt a bridge there which could have been useful in future. But I am so glad I did as the supervisor really pushed the same emotional blackmail claptrap about being “disappointed” in my decision and how I should do what’s best for the company and dept.

  52. Full time / Part time drama?*

    I recently took a role that is part-time because I freelance, and I wanted more stability. However, I’m really getting some anxious feelings about this decision; the organization is a non-profit, and my sense is that they’re frequently dealing with crises so it ends up being “all hands on deck.” In negotiation they pushed hard to get as many hours as they could from me, while still being below their full-time cutoff (so there’s no benefits for the role). Has anyone else had experience maintaining boundaries in situations like this? I need some scripts to push back if they push to try to get a basically full-time staffperson at half-time rate. They would not be able to afford me full time and I took the role because I intend to continue freelancing, so I don’t want to be on the hook here; I thought they understood that, but I’m getting nervous.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I need some scripts to push back if they push to try to get a basically full-time staffperson at half-time rate.

      So it sounds like you’re paid salary and not an hourly rate. In that case I’d say “As we discussed, I’m only available X hours a week.” Don’t give them reasons (I need time for freelancing, I don’t want to get burned out, etc.) because that just gives them something to rationalize away. Don’t even say “I can work the extra hours this week if you let me have that time back next week,” because that’s not gonna happen. Just politely say “no, I’m sorry, I’m only available X hours a week.”

    2. Anon for This*

      “If I work that many hours you will have to provide benefits. I understood that you did not want to have to do that.
      Are you offering me a full-time position?”

      Then just keep telling them you have hit your quota of hours.

      A good friend works as a contractor to a federal agency, and as soon as she hits her allotted hours for the week she has to quit work. Slightly different situation, as the government can’t accept volunteer time, but she tells me that it was hard the first time or two, but now is very routine: Sorry, I’ve hit my ceiling and can’t work any more.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        “Sorry, I’ve hit my ceiling and can’t work any more.”

        Adding, “I have outside commitments that I must attend to, so I must leave right now.”

        It’s up to them to figure out how to get maximum benefit from the hours you do work.

  53. Empress Matilda*

    Sort of related to the question on the other thread about sharing passwords. Someone at my organization is being investigated by IT *and* HR because he has been streaming Twitch for hours on end, from our equipment, during the work day.

    So either he is playing (and streaming) video games all day instead of working, which is a problem; or he’s streaming his actual work, which is a REALLY BIG PROBLEM. Yikes. I don’t know if it’s specifically against the rules, because I think the rules might predate the streaming technology, but seriously. Even if it is only Lesser Problem A, rather than Massive Problem B – what would make someone think this was an okay thing to do, or that he would get away with it for any period of time? I’m so curious as to what goes on in people’s heads sometimes!

      1. Empress Matilda*

        Maybe, depending on which department he’s in!

        But I have to admit that I am Old, and I don’t understand the appeal of Twitch *at all.* If it came down to a choice between an emergency root canal or watching someone else play video games, I would have to think about it…

        1. pancakes*

          Fwiw, I’m semi-old and not a gamer at all, and often use Twitch to watch the sort of arty-farty independent film programming people used to gather to watch in person. And there are other people I follow that stream niche stuff not related to gaming – their pet shrimps living in a tank, 1970s and 80s industrial videos, etc. These type of channels are a lot like what used to be on cable access late at night.

        2. JustaTech*

          As someone who is terrible at video games I was always the one sitting on the couch watching rather than playing. There’s some appeal in watching someone good play the game so you can get to see the story (video game stories had become vastly more complex than “the princess is in another tower”) without having to have the skill to jump that gap or shoot that zombie or whatever.

        3. Diatryma*

          My go-to hypothesis is that it’s mildly generational: video games have always included watching someone else play them because as a kid, I took turns with friends or cousins playing whatever the family had. They’re social for me.

    2. BoredatHome*

      Wow!

      Is he currently working from home? I’d wonder if he has used that to be able to ignore that he would likely get in trouble for this (and justify to himself) because he isn’t in the same place as his colleagues.

    3. ConfusedinCO*

      I wonder if he’s just watching other streams? I don’t know enough about IT to know if they would be able to tell the difference between him streaming or watching other streams. I could see someone watching other streams as a way to get background noise they’d normally have in the office? Or he’s trying to stay focused while working by using streaming as an accountability tool? (Like how coworkers will hop on video chats just to have each other working in the background?). I guess I want to give the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it’s such an egregious situation!

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I’ve done this with an artist’s stream on occasion. She’ll paint for HOURS, and I’ll have it up on my phone, just to hear something other than music. And what she’s talking about doesn’t require the concentration of a podcast. I can glance at it once in a while, see that why yes, adding shadows really does do a lot to the painting, and go on with my day.

        I would think you could tell if the employee is just downloading from the stream rather than also uploading, but that’s not really my forte.

        1. Empress Matilda*

          Oh, that’s interesting! I don’t actually know who this person is, or anything other than what I originally posted, but this is good to know. Hopefully it’s just a bandwidth problem in that case, rather than either of the others I thought of. :)

          1. Sybil Carpenter*

            Also, if he’s the one streaming he would need to have specific software, e.g., Open Broadcast System, to do so. Are you able to download software on your work computer without permission/passwords from IT? (I can’t do this on my work laptop so I assume it’s common.) But IT could check for the software on his computer, too.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        I do think that IT could tell the difference. Bandwidth-wise streaming what’s happening on your screen will likely look similar to an all day Zoom or Teams meeting where you’re screen sharing or sharing video, but IT can tell which sites/IP addressed are getting the uploads and they can tell the difference between upload and download bandwidth being used by the user.

      3. Environmental Compliance*

        There’s also all kinds of musicians who stream on Twitch!

        I assume IT has already looked into if he’s downloading or uploading, however.

    4. JustaTech*

      The only possible reason I can think of to stream your work is if you’re teaching people in another location, and then you sure wouldn’t do it on Twitch!

      As to what goes on in people’s heads – who knows. There was a guy at my company who (not during down times!) watched hours of anime. It might be one of those slow creep things: you start taking a work-related online class. Then you take a less work related class during a slow period. Then you do some grad school work on your work computer because of software issues. I don’t know when or how one would make the leap to Twitch, but I can see the possibility.

    5. KoiFeeder*

      Didn’t we have a letter where an influencer streamed her performance review on Twitch?

  54. Kara*

    Did y’all see the articles this morning about the Goldman Sachs presentation that the 1st year bankers made, about how much they’re overworked?

    1) Do you think this will actually help their case at work?

    2) My actual question – how have you been or not been successful at setting boundaries at work? I feel like I’ve generally been able to do this, and people didn’t have that much of a reaction. I’ve mainly worked white collar jobs with unclear hours, but some things that have worked for me:
    – I just worked the hours I wanted to, and getting my work done. If coworkers made comments about leaving early or coming late, I’d ask pointed questions about “do you need it earlier” but otherwise ignore it
    – Scheduling “lunch” or “gym” on my calendar, especially so that I can leave on time.
    – Checking slack/email quickly in the morning so that even if I don’t start work until later I can quickly reply to a few things and will know if there’s a fire.
    – This only works if you have some power, but harnessing the power of organizational tool to control how people submit requests (oh we need X info with each request, please fill out the form and my team will prioritize), and saying that, for example, changes that affect production must be made by X time, that’s our process, unwise/not industry standard to interrupt that.

    1. OyHiOh*

      I saw the articles. Within the industry, I think this presentation will go the way of the intern dress code debacle and the workload requirements of medical residencies – the problem will be acknowledged and absolutely nothing will be done about it because it’s always been this way and generally, systems are tremendously resistant to change.

      My CurrentJob is the first time I’ve worked in a setting that does not have strict punch in/punch out shifts. My check is also funded by a grant with limited hours available so I’ve had to quickly learn to enforce strict boundaries on my time. I’m not getting paid for enough hours to put out fires anytime something pops up.

      Like you, I make a quick check of my email and work chat in the morning before leaving home so that I kind of know what I’ll be dealing with when I sit down to my desk.
      I do not respond to email once I leave work. I had to remind co works regularly for the first couple months about my availability but they’ve pretty much got the boundary now and don’t look for responses outside my standard hours.
      I’ve told our board what my office hours are and “if you need a quick response outside these hours, you should talk to X or Y.”

    2. Construction Safety*

      Saw the GS article. 100 hrs/week & $91k per year works out to ~$14/hr (OT & 50 weeks/year). They might have a point.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, if I were working that many hours, I’d need to be making mid six figures.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      HOly schmoly. I think all those people will be fired, or there will be a witch hunt to find them. I’m particularly worried about the foster care person — that’s identifiable information.

      My question to that is — what the heck does Goldman Sachs require of junior analysts that takes 100 hours a week? What on earth could they possibly be doing? It’s banking, for god’s sake, not medicine or firefighting. I doubt even the people making the covid vaccine worked 100 hours a week.

      1. JustaTech*

        The people who make the COVID vaccine sure aren’t working 100 hours a week because you get dumb and clumsy with fatigue if you’re working something like 16 hour days every day of the week. If you’re working 100 hours a week that’s less than 10 non-working hours a day, which leaves 2 hours for eating/washing if you’re going to get 8 hours of sleep, which obviously isn’t going to happen.

        Humans need sleep and rest to function. I don’t understand why some industries try to deny this.

      2. PollyQ*

        Any job could take 100 hours a week if the employer only hires 40% of the people they need.

      3. Cedrus Libani*

        It’s spreadsheet wrangling, as I understand it. Customer asks for some analysis, it’s going to take 100 hours, customer wants answers ASAP so it’s got to be done this week. If you’re the poor schmuck who owns that account, welcome to your 100-hour week.

        This kind of work can be split up, but there’s definitely an overhead to that. In place of that schmuck, you could have three people working sustainable white-collar schedules – call it 6.5 hours/day of wrangling plus another hour/day of team coordination. But then you’re paying three people instead of one.

        FWIW, I do know several people whose very specific expertise was on the COVID critical path, and they found themselves working 100+ hour weeks – but that was for a week or two while they got other people set up to help. One was on double shifts for about two months, and then took the comp time, which was both deserved and by that point very much needed. You can’t do that indefinitely, even if there’s a legit emergency out there. You get stupid and make careless errors. People break. That’s fine when you’re trying to winnow this year’s crop of junior i-bankers, but not fine when you need it done right and done yesterday.

    4. Tired Unicorn*

      I really hope that it does work and that there is some public pressure to financial companies to use better working conditions. I used to post here last year when working with a different financial firm and how I was so miserable and my health had deteriorated to the point I was thinking of quitting with nothing lined up. And I only had to work 60-70 hr weeks.

      I was able to push back a bit at that job, but it involved sorta breaking down in front of multiple bosses. My HR rep was also overworking herself trying to get better boundaries set up since half of the team had ended up in her (virtual) office at wit’s end. I also started adding my boss to a lot of email chains so she could see how frequently I was being contacted, how frequently the requirements were changing, and how harsh/toxic the communication structure was, so she was able to address some things at a higher level.

      Eventually the real change came from me quitting. The company had pinned a lot of hopes on me as their solution to diversity issues (women aren’t being discriminated against, look, we have Tired Unicorn in a high position and is destined for great things!). Multiple people turned down taking over my job, the guy who stuck with it started sending up red flags on day 1, and I think a few more have quit since I left. So it only got better when they realized they could have accept 50hr weeks or lose the entire team.

    5. PX*

      Saw it, and considering the Goldman Sachs CEO was the first one to say how he wants everyone back in the office ASAP because he doesnt think remote working fosters the “collaborative environment” that is required, definitely dont think they will come out of it looking good, and it will do the opposite of helping their case.

      I follow a blog in a loosely related industry (management consulting) and people there talk about how much reputation matters in these high prestige companies/industries so yeah. They will definitely not be getting on the promotion fast track after this.

    6. Cedrus Libani*

      1) No. Here’s the thing – it’s been common knowledge that junior i-bankers work around the clock for decades, and they still have a surplus of more-than-qualified applicants. So why would they adapt their work practices?

      2) Yes. Granted, it won’t work everywhere, and it works a whole lot better when you have specialized skills and you know you’d be a weapons-grade PITA to replace. But one nice thing about white-collar jobs with unclear hours is that it’s not always obvious how much you’re working. So long as you’re staying within “normal” range for your productivity, you can get in, work efficiently, and get out. People will get used to you answering emails during business hours only, or telling them it’s going to take a few weeks to get to something, or whatever your limits need to be.

      1. Bex*

        Agree with all this. Nobody wants to be a junior i-banker. They want to be a GS partner pulling down a $1M salary and an annual bonus that tops out at $35M. The road to get there is brutal, but there will always be people who think the sacrifice is worth it.

    7. Yellow Warbler*

      The people I know in finance and big law are very scornful of the “kids” for doing this. They think they’re sticking their necks out in a clueless, entitled way that will only get them blackballed (once they’re found out, which is probable).

      I can’t relate; my field is fast-paced, but not to that degree. According to them if you want the big bucks, you have to earn them.

      1. Kara*

        Is it really big bucks? I feel like if you want that type of attention you’d have to pay me at least $250k+, not ~$140k

        1. Qwerty*

          It’s more like grunt work / hazing. While the salary sounds good at first, it’s in NYC, so it really doesn’t get them far. The idea is that you put in ridiculous hours for the first year or two and then it gets better from there in both money and hours. I think it’s really telling that these junior bankers were requesting an 80hr work week – they weren’t even asking for work/life balance, just the ability to sleep!

          Granted, my experience is second hand since I was in an adjacent field (trading, where we expect work/life balance from junior people because we don’t want them touching the important stuff yet, and as I stated in another comment were given a lot of perks to make up for inconveniences)

          I don’t see this changing anything except maybe deterring some people from accepting those jobs. Goldman got a lot of attention a few years ago for this same thing and nothing happened.

  55. Squeegee Beckenheim*

    Has anyone had success negotiating for full remote work?
    I’m interviewing for a really great position but in a city I’m not interested in moving to full time. It kind of fell into my lap and seems too good to pass up if it works out, but I’d love any advice for if/when an offer comes through, asking about being remote even after covid. Background: I’m somewhat entry level (~2 years work experience + fresh out of grad school) and from the company’s LinkedIn it looks like the majority of staff is based in the same city, but some, including the high-up manager who has been interviewing me, are remote in other states. Is there language I can use that is similar to Alison’s “is there any flexibility on salary”–but for remote work?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Are you interested in this job if the answer is “no” to your request on remote work? If not, I would bring this up well before the offer stage, so you are not wasting your or their time.

      Have they talked to you about the post-Covid plans, in terms of bringing people back to the office? Basing your request off the luxury afforded to senior staff seems unwise; you’re better off recognizing what they offer to peer employees.

      At any rate, I think you could ask: “I am hoping to stay in CurrentLocation. Would you be open to this position being a full-time remote role?”

    2. Qwerty*

      Was the job posted as a fully remote job? If you got the interview through a connection rather than an application, check their other job postings to see whether they are remote. Typically, unless a job ad explicitly says that it is remote, it is intended to be on-site in the city it is posted as being in. Exceptions generally require exceptional skills or a hard-to-fill position.

      If the posting doesn’t say that it’s remote, talk to the recruiter that you are dealing with and clear this up. If moving is a dealbreaker for you, then it’s better to know now. Salary flexibility relates to an adjustment of a range – changing the location is a pretty big item.

  56. Awkward Silence*

    Is it better to give a long resignation notice (such as a month before my last day?) if my team is getting beat up by covid (and is generally overworked) and I want a future reference from my boss?

    I got an amazing opportunity to finally switch fields and am set to start in the summer via an internship. But even with the field switch, I’d like to have my current boss as a job reference and not burn any bridges. I’m concerned that my boss will be a bit salty that I’ll be leaving because I previously noted in my interview that I’d like to “grow” in this position and I’ve only been here a year now. But this past year has helped change my views and helped me learn that I should really pursue what makes me happy!

    Would this be best done by giving like a 4 week notice than the typical 2 week one? So there’s more time for the recruiters to find a replacement and a bigger chance that I can personally train the new hire before I’m gone? Or would it be fine to stick to the 2 week notice?

    1. ConfusedinCO*

      I don’t think 4 vs 2 weeks is a long enough difference that it would have a real impact for your company, unless you’re at a very high level role where there’s need for greater knowledge transfer. Protect yourself first. If you need those extra two weeks of income, don’t risk being pushed out before you’re ready to leave. Maybe you can offer a consulting rate to help with transition (if you feel so inclined to do so).

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      The purpose of a notice period is not so that they can hire someone and have them start while you are still in the job (and four weeks isn’t enough time to do that anyway). I don’t see that the extra two weeks would make any difference to OldJob.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        I will disagree and say I would appreciate 4 weeks versus 2 weeks notice from an employee, to buy me time to consult with my boss about how we’re going to fill the position and set the wheels in motion, and allow the employee time to do a really thorough transition.

    3. VT*

      I work public sector so we can’t recruit fast enough for 2 vs 4 weeks to make a difference but I gave 4-5 weeks notice because I was the only person running certain programs (that I created) and thought it might give them time to identify someone to take those over temporarily. I finally just picked someone about 1.5 weeks before I left because I didn’t want to screw over my coworkers and managers had not made a decision yet. I wouldn’t give that much notice again.

    4. sequined histories*

      If the person is so “salty” they speak ill of you later for only giving two week’s notice, they certainly won’t speak well of you if you give four week’s notice.

      Only consider giving four week’s notice if being without any income for four weeks would be of no consequence to you.

      It would be unreasonable and absurd for your boss to resent your departure now on basis of the fact that an entire year ago, you were eager to stay. Things change. It’s a job, not a marriage.

    5. Anon for This*

      How does your employer treat people who resign? Take that as your guide. In some places there is a lot of pressure to stay, or the cold shoulder to someone so disloyal that they leave. Where my husband works in IT), the person gets walked out the door immediately (after someone watches them pack up personal stuff).

      Then again, some workplaces are healthy and notice isn’t a problem. I’d take the cue from whatever you’ve observed when others have left.

    6. Natalie*

      I’ve given a long notice for this purpose before, I think it was about 5 weeks, and I am not at a level or in an industry where that’s the norm. I hadn’t been at the job for very long (at a place where people stay for years to decades), it was our busy season, and my new position had a fixed start date so a longer notice required no capital on my part. I haven’t needed that place as a reference, but just based on my last month there I think it was to my advantage. It let them get what they needed from me for year end, and get a contractor in to cover my work. Sure, that probably could have been done in two weeks, but it’s much less stressful to do in four or five.

      I am currently on a team that has experienced a very stressful year which has included a fair bit of turnover. One of our managers just gave an open-ended notice. That’s obviously not an option for most people but he’s definitely reaping reputation points for it.

      Obviously, all of this is hugely caveated by how your management typically functions, and your own ability and willingness to cut your notice period short if there is bad behavior or you are pushed out early. But there can absolutely be an advantage to you and your reputation. The idea that there’s no benefit to this simply because you don’t owe it or it doesn’t completely resolve the problem is a pretty big oversimplification IMO.

  57. Alexis Rose*

    I’m managing a hiring process–we are at the final stage with a top candidate. She provided four references, all of which were glowing. All of her references were pretty old–the most recent references were volunteers or consultants she’d worked with at her current job, not people who supervised her. Candidate has been at her current job for a decade, and she said they do not know she is job hunting.

    My boss wants us to make the offer conditional on speaking to her current supervisor. I feel that this would be unfair. Candidate is super qualified and would be taking a pay cut to work with us (explicitly in exchange for a better work-life balance, which we could provide) so it feels a bit mean to force her through more hoops. I’m curious what others think.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I agree with you. You’ve already spoken to people she currently works with, that should be enough under the circumstances.

    2. ConfusedinCO*

      It’s super unfair to the candidate. If I was in her position, I might not risk letting you do that and you could lose the candidate. Also, the manager has incentive to tank the reference if they want to keep the candidate. I think you should push back as much as you can. I think Alison has a post or two on why conditional offers are so bad as well.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Agreed. You wouldn’t want to risk her current position, even if you’re hoping she’s able to come for you.

    3. Carol*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t do this…this does kind of penalize her for working at one place a long time. If I were to look for work without my current supervisor knowing, my last supervisor is already a pretty old reference and can’t speak to my current work skills, really. I get that the supervisor provides important perspective, but it’s easier for people who have gone through a reorg or change jobs more frequently to provide something relevant enough.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Nope to the nope. It is not usual to provide references from existing managers and if someone tried to do this to me, not only would I withdraw from the process, I would blacklist the company and I would tell all of my friends in the industry about this outrageous request.

    5. Alexis Rose*

      Thanks everyone! I spoke with my boss about my concerns and he agreed to drop the idea of a conditional offer. Hearing everyone’s feedback here helped me feel confident in pushing back strongly.

    6. Deborah*

      I got my job workout anyone talking to anyone at my last job, where I worked for 7 years, and where all my relevant experience was earned. I didn’t volunteer them because they were angry with me for pushing them to observe minimal covid safety (like making people who had been exposed at work stay home after getting a test until the results came back…). I didn’t know what my supervisor would say!

      I was able to provide a reference who I worked with closely in my field at a customer of the company I worked for (so I represented the vendor and he represented the customer and we worked together for several years). I am sure that helped.

      I strongly support your position. :)

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I had this happen to me at my current job. When I was applying my previous boss had tried to torpedo me with a lukewarm reference, so I sort of understand wanting to double check with my then-current supervisor. It still put me in a bind though and was super awkward because I had to give notice and in the same breath ask for a reference, which needed to happen that very day. Fortunately I had an extremely understanding boss and had done great work there but I could easily see it going very, very badly.

      In this situation, I don’t think it’s fair to ask to speak with her current supervisor. She’s been there a decade, of course her other references are “old”! You’ve already spoken with people who’ve worked with her in her current role! I’d ask boss if there’s anything else he’d accept in lieu of speaking with her current supervisor, maybe like one more current colleague or something. That’s still pushing the bounds of decency though, in my opinion.

  58. CatCat*

    There was a letter a few years ago called, “Can I put World of Warcraft leadership experience on my resume?” The answer was pretty much no unless it’s a gamer-heavy field and the answer was still that it might be kind of iffy.

    What about PAID work for gaming? Apparently paying for a skilled Dungeon Master for Dungeons and Dragons gaming is a thing. The Dungeon Master sets up and runs the game for the players.

    Is that something that can go on a resume? If so, what does that look like? If not, why not? Is it something so frowned upon that it needs obfuscation on a resume (thinking of all the recent advice on the sex worker post).

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      The fact that you were paid to do it doesn’t mean it’s relevant. I’d still leave it off unless it’s somehow related to the job you’re applying for.

    2. Weekend Please*

      I think it depends on the job you are applying for and whether you have better work experience you don’t want to draw attention away from. I’m assuming that most people aren’t doing it as a full time job. My husband works as a judge for Magic the Gathering events. It doesn’t go on his resume because it really isn’t relevant to his full time job and he really just does it to get more money to buy Magic cards. I could see it if you are applying for a job related to the game but other than that it would probably not strengthen a resume but could distract from relevant work experience.

      1. Weekend Please*

        That said, if you have no other work experience it probably wouldn’t hurt and could at least grab some attention.

    3. OtterB*

      I think you could include it if it has relevant skills (e.g. creativity, relationship building, perhaps team building) or if it’s paid employment in a time span where you were otherwise unemployed. You take a risk of running into someone who thinks D&D is satanic or at best weird, but you could also run into someone who thinks it’s very cool.

    4. twocents*

      I think it depends on the position. If you’re applying for, say, small group event planning, this would be relevant. And I don’t think needs to be hidden what it is.

    5. Alexis Rose*

      Is this a full-time job or a side gig?

      If a full-time job, I certainly don’t think it would need obfuscation. However, it would need a lot of crystal-clear explanation as to what the duties were and why it was relevant. Pass it by several people who are not familiar with D&D and see if it makes sense to them.

      If a side gig, it might be okay to list under an ‘other’ section of a resume, but should not be a highlight. Most people do not know what D&D is. I’ve had multiple people approach me in the last year about setting up D&D games and most of them think it’s a board game you play out of a box, not knowing how much work it takes to lead. So assume people not familiar will think you are talking about leading a boxed board game and how that will look.

    6. CatCat*

      Note, I’m not the Dungeon Master here. I barely even know how to play. I’m curious for a young person I know who is sort of “in demand” among players who are offering to pay.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        If they end up doing a significant amount of this, I would probably frame it as a “facilitation business” focused on the gaming community. It definitely can be considered a type of group facilitation focused around a very particular theme. They can talk about how they set prices with clients, managed expectations about deliverables, and performed the actual facilitation.

      2. OtterB*

        I think it would help if they can identify why they are “in demand.” What do the other players/their customers find particularly good about their work?

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I love D&D and I would love to say “Oh, yeah totally.” But I’m not sure….

      I think if you made enough that you could justify as an event planning business then I might be able to see if going on a resume; however, it would need to be directly related to the work you are applying to and I would not call it D&D. The people I know who have been paid to run D&D are almost always being paid by friends or other people they know, it’s not really a “business” in a traditional sense. They aren’t finding clients and they aren’t really keeping business records. Also, a lot of people don’t know what D&D is, so you need to think about how to frame it in such a way people understand.

      I think that it is likely to cause a lot of raised eyebrows. If I saw it on a resume, as a hiring manager, it would need to be really really related to the job otherwise I would seriously wonder about the judgement of a person putting it on the resume- just like I would wonder if someone put down that they sold crocheted blankets to people. That’s nice, but how does it relate to this job?

    8. Comic Con Vendor*

      I think I fit a similar profile to your Dungeon Master–young person, not a lot of traditional job experience, and a nerdy side gig, in my case selling my artwork at comic conventions. I actually do have it on my resume, to help cover an employment gap and as a place to emphasize experience that my traditional jobs don’t reflect (I will likely remove it in the future when I have more experience). I can’t know for certain how everyone who has seen my resume has reacted to it, I’m sure some hiring managers rolled their eyes and rejected me once they saw it, but I have also had some really good reactions especially in interviews. For example emphasizing all the administrative work I do to keep my art side gig afloat in my resume and interview was key in helping me make the leap from babysitting to my first office admin job when I graduated college based on feedback from the woman who hired me.

      That said, when I discuss this job in resumes/cover letters/interviews, I only mention things directly related to job description or interviewer’s question. So for example I don’t discuss how I make art or what kind of art I make, but I do discuss all the customer service I do when selling it to others when customer service experience is relevant to the role. I’ve practiced giving quick, simple explanations of what I do to get someone unfamiliar with the concept of vending at comic cons up to speed. I will openly acknowledge that this type of experience is unusual and maybe not what my potential employer was expecting in cover letters/interviews and try to draw parallels between what I do at comic cons and more traditional jobs and the job description as a way to make my case for its relevance.

      So based on my personal experience as a job-seeker, I would say the Dungeon Master could do well to include it if they 1. don’t have a lot of other traditional job experience and 2. are able to draw direct parallels between their experience DMing and the job description. I don’t think it’s without risk: I’ve discussed having this kind of information on your resume with other artists friends and some have told me about negative experiences like potential employers dismissing it or seeing it as a “this employee will quit to do that side gig eventually” risk. But I also think of some of the other young people I know that like me graduated with little job experience and struggle to land entry-level retail and food service jobs and I am very thankful my comic convention experience gave me a leg up on landing my first “grown up” office job.

  59. Hippity Hop*

    I hear varying things about job hopping (especially this year with COVID.) I think I am stuck in a job that is slowly killing me because of fear of looking like a job hopper, and I’m not sure I should push through.

    I started anxiety meds for the first time with my current job. I was in a super toxic job before this, so I don’t even understand why I’m this anxious compartively. It’s not like my job is evil, but it is very, very high pressure. I am unable to keep up without crying between meetings. It’s been a little over a year and my coworker said if I can just make it to the two year hump, the anxiety might go down. Oh god. I want to cry thinking about that.

    I’m really disappointing myself because I wanted this to be my long term role. I’m 28 and ready to find that sweet spot in my career.

    It was college (worked a job for two years there), I maintained a job for two years while in grad school, worked my first professional job for 22 months, moved cross country for my partner and landed in a toxic job that I survived for 17 months. Now this role for a little over a year. I’m very self conscious about my resume because I haven’t stayed somewhere longer than 2 years yet. But I want to find that fit, or at least something I can tolerate and stay longer.

    An opportunity for a 1 year contract role that can be renewed came up, in a part of the field I want to really try. They would train me and give me a great salary. It’s less hours too, and less pressure. I am tempted to try it, but I’m afraid I am dooming myself again to job hopping. Fear keeps me here, and my meds are slowly starting to work for my anxiety, but… I just don’t know what to do.

    1. VT*

      I get the fear of job hopping but in this day and age, you almost have to to get ahead, both financially and in terms of building your skills. If you were bouncing around every 3-9 months, I would say it looks like you ARE job hopping. But staying a little over a year then moving on? That doesn’t seem flighty to me. I’ve looked at resumes and when people have a few shorter stints, I just assume they moved on for more money or a different skill set.

      1. Hippity Hop*

        That is reassuring, thank you. I will say that each move I made from grad school to now has been an upward move for salary and position. I think I just moved a little too high up, too soon for my current job. And now I’m in line for a promotion here but it is just so much pressure and lots of management things–I don’t think I even want to do it. I’m barely surviving now :/

        1. VT*

          Your mental health is important. Even if the anxiety meds kick in fully, it likely won’t make your reaction to a high, high pressure job situation so good that you will feel normal and okay with your work life. I would move on to a better for you opportunity. You have reasonable explanations for the job switching and you can use those explanations in the event you are asked in the future.

    2. Truth-ish*

      I say go for it especially as the next role is a contract role. Right now everybody basically has a free pass for job loss/extended unemployment/leaving job due to COVID (in this case you could simply say the way the company/your manager handled COVID made you uncomfortable which would also help weed out some not-so-great employers). Plus when the contract ends, you have a perfect explanation for the time frame of leaving “it was a one-year contract that wasn’t renewed” and just be vague about who chose to not renew if that employer ends up being a bad deal as well.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You are crying at work.
      Take the contract job. It’s time things start going better for you.

    4. internet stranger*

      I was in a very similar situation a couple years ago – all the anxiety from my toxic job came out after I left it. For months my heart started racing when my new boss asked me to come to his office unexpectedly even though every time it was because he wanted help with excel. Meds and therapy both helped eventually, then I moved on to a much better corporate job.

      This job isn’t working out and it’s ok to quit. Job hopping is rapidly becoming less and less of a bad thing and two years is more than long enough in your twenties. Please give yourself grace if you can, and I recommend therapy if your circumstances allow it. Hugs from an internet stranger.

  60. VT*

    This isn’t my situation but I’m helping to advise a friend. He has worked for a non-profit for about 1.5 years that is fairly dysfunctional. Most of the dysfunction is due to his executive director and his boss not being qualified to do their jobs (about half of his job duties are what his boss should be doing). He’s underpaid, stressed out etc. He started looking for other work to get out of this situation but at the same time, he has been telling the Board about all the problems and they are starting to move on demoting or letting go his boss/ED. It sounds like the demotion/letting go is going to happen in the next week or sooner and with it, he has been promised a raise and a change of duties to better align with what he has been doing for the organization already. Due to the (possible) change in leadership and more money, he is considering staying instead of going somewhere else.

    My question is, what should he be looking for/asking for in terms of change if everything at his current organization appears to be happening? I told him he should get any sort of promised pay raises and/or job titles in writing or effective immediately before he turns down any outside job offers.

    1. Ashley*

      I would keep interviewing until everything is settled at the current job. Plus if the ED leaves is the nonprofit going to hire someone to help your friend not work two positions? And if it only a demotion I would definitely still search because that co-worker would likely be a nightmare.

    2. avocadolime*

      Definitely get it in writing.
      In the nonprofit I worked in for a number of years, the Board did not have a say regarding staffing decisions (hiring, promotion, salary, etc.). It may be different in the org he works at, but it’s worth confirming the folks making these promises will actually be able to keep them. It might also be worth considering what the atmosphere at the org will be if the ED is only demoted (and presumably knows that SOMEONE talked to the board).
      That said, glad the Board is listening–so often that doesn’t happen!

    3. Anon for This*

      He should get out. I worked for a place like that. It took an incredibly long time for them to get the new director in place (and no changes can be made until the new one is in place – just hold on!), and when they finally did he was no better than the old one.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. The common thread here is the board and they are allowing these conditions to go on. This will not change without a lot of blood, sweat and tears and maybe a few new board members.

        When companies show you where they are at it’s okay to believe them.

    4. Alexis Rose*

      He should ask some hard questions about the interim period and the search for a new ED. What is the timeline? How will be the board recruit? Who is in charge of the process? If this is the board that hired the ED in the first place, how will they ensure a more successful hiring process the second time around? Will staff have any input in the hiring process? Who will be the Interim ED?

      A new ED can make a world of difference, but he should know when to expect that person.

  61. Going Anon Today*

    I didn’t have a chance to respond in the earlier thread about the admin who wouldn’t talk to the new employee: https://www.askamanager.org/2021/03/the-office-admin-refuses-to-speak-to-me.html

    As it happens, I recently started a new job and have a Jane in my office. She started less than a month before I did, and I’m baffled as to what I could have said, done, not said, or not done that has caused her to be so unpleasant to me. I’m getting along fine with everyone else in the office. Because we’re a small group and I’m still new, I don’t feel comfortable discreetly asking anyone else if they’re receiving similar treatment from Jane. I’m dying to know if she’s cold to everyone or just me. So far, I can’t tell.

    I’m continuing to be courteous and professional when I have to interact with her, but I’m really tired of her curt/rude responses to virtually everything I say.

    1. Malika*

      Do you see her interacting with other people? Is her desk anywhere near yours? You can see whether it’s a you thing or everyone thing.
      9/10 it’s an everyone thing. Either really bad people skills or oblivious to the soft skills outside of their job description.

    3. t*

      >I’m continuing to be courteous and professional when I have to interact with her…

      …and you continue this. Meanwhile, you do the best work you can and build allies in your own department and in others’.

      Leave Jane to her own miserable self.

  62. ConfusedinCO*

    Any advice on recovering emotionally from a toxic workplace? I left over a year ago, and I still keep dwelling on all the things that bothered me about it/ways I felt wronged. It doesn’t help that I’m still socially connected to some people there, but just not talking about work isn’t an option because we’re in the same industry. I don’t think my time there is impacting my current job performance at all (and I’m very happy where I am), but I am still ruminating on this place when I just want to leave it behind me.

    1. Carol*

      I can identify with this–for me, time helps, but also realizing that only you can provide the closure you need about this job. They’re not going to give you any more than they already have. Getting yourself to move from “that really shouldn’t have happened” to “that did happen, it shouldn’t have, but I responded appropriately and left.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think the fallout from a toxic place can go on for years after leaving.

      Make sure you are taking care of yourself. A body with proper hydration, good nutrition, rest and moderate exercise supports good mental function. It becomes a bit easier to process those hard issues in life.

      I also recommend reading here. This helps the brain re-calibrate, find what normal should and does look like.

      Sometimes we can secretly be mad at our own selves for not getting out sooner. If this resonates with you a good way to fight this regret is make a solemn promise to yourself to get you out quicker if it ever happens again. We can’t undo our past but we can make our future better.

      Last. It’s pretty normal that once a traumatized person gets to safety they start having vivid recall or keep reviewing what when on at that UNsafe place. This is because it’s safe to look at it now. Cry if you need to. Get some counseling sessions if you think that sounds good. And watch your self-talk. Repeatedly remind yourself, “I am safe now”.

      1. WithADeee*

        Not the original commenter, but a fellow survivor of a toxic workplace (still with social connections theee, etc) – I could have written that post.

        I just wanted to thank NotSoNewReader for your post – I really appreciate your wisdom.

    3. MissCoco*

      Honestly I needed some therapy to get over my own toxic workplace, and tbh stuff still pops up on occasion, I’m just better at dealing with it now

  63. OtterB*

    If anyone is still looking for perks for remote workers to make up for not having snacks in the office kitchen, etc., my company recently used SnackMagic (not putting in the link so the comment won’t go to moderation). I don’t know how the finances worked from the company side because someone else had arranged it for attendees at a virtual workshop and then offered some unclaimed packs to the staff. But from the recipient side, I went to the snackmagic website where I had a $45 fully customizable credit. The website let me scroll through and pick out snacks and drinks of various kinds (cookies, protein bars, jerky, chocolate, flavored seltzer, fancy tea bags, K-cups, etc.) and check the nutrition information on what I was ordering if I wanted. There was a clear tracker of how much money I still had left to spend. I got an email when it shipped and it arrived a few days later. Almost all of the brands were unfamiliar, but everything I’ve eaten tastes good. Apparently you can arrange for your brand swag to be included in the box also, although we didn’t do that.

  64. Allergic to my Job?*

    I’m a teacher, and we’re set to go back to school soon. I’m generally pleased with how seriously my school is taking our safety, but there’s one stumbling block: our screener app. Every day, in order to come to school, every adult and student needs to answer some health screening questions. In general, I think this is a great idea! In practice, the question is:

    ————-
    According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & the World Health Organization, COVID-19 Symptoms include:

    Fever or chills
    Cough
    Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
    Fatigue
    Muscle or body aches
    Headache
    New loss of taste or smell
    Sore throat
    Congestion or runny nose
    Nausea or vomiting
    Diarrhea
    Are you experiencing any of the COVID-19 related symptoms noted above? *

    Yes \ No

    ——————-

    I have chronic allergies, and am almost always “experiencing congestion or a runny nose.” If I say yes, I will not be allowed to go to school.

    I’ve explained the problem to my boss and to HR. I’ve shown them examples of other apps that ask the question in a way that excludes chronic allergies, asthma, etc., I’ve asked them what to do, and they have been vague and given me non-answers like “use your best judgement.” My best judgement says that I have a runny nose, and I shouldn’t lie on a medical screening form!

    My guess is that after a week of having to find a sub for me (and anyone else with spring allergies!), they will suddenly figure out how expensive it is not to find a workable solution here. But is there anything I can do to get them to that point faster?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      My employer uses a similar screener and I specifically asked about the runny nose (because hello allergy season). They said to use my best judgement, and if my runny nose fits my own personal pattern of allergy symptoms, to not report it as a symptom.

      (And really, as someone without a gallbladder who takes a medication with side effects that include “digestive issues,” I’d never be able to come to the office if I answered these questions literally.)

    2. ConfusedinCO*

      My screening app asks for symptoms that “cannot be explained by another health condition.” I think that’s what the question SHOULD ask, and you should just frame it that way in your mind. I.e., if you’ve been taking allergy meds and you STILL have symptoms (and you know that’s unusual for you), you should flag yourself as potentially sick. If you haven’t taken your meds and have a runny nose and nothing else, well, it’s probably allergies.

    3. VT*

      Yeah, my gym does the same questions but they caveat it as “are you experiencing any of these symptoms that are outside the norm for you?” I have a nose thing so I’m congested every single day and I always say no to experiencing the symptoms they list.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The wording on our school’s attestation form indicates they want to know about symptoms not explained by “a pre-existing condition.” It’s so common to have other factors that cause symptoms, it feels like an oversight that your form doesn’t allow that exception.

        I have a chronic morning cough, watery eyes/runny nose, and frequent headaches. In my best judgment, none of these are the symptoms they are really asking about, which would be along the lines of sudden new occurrences, not issues I’ve had for literal years.

    4. meyer lemon*

      Agreed that this is not a helpful screening tool (with the caveat that I’m not a medical professional of any kind). The one used by my health jurisdiction has more nuance, and places more emphasis on the most highly COVID-associated symptoms, since many of the ones listed are both very vague and have found to not be correlated as strongly with COVID. It also asks about things like recent exposures or travel, which are a bit concerningly omitted here. You could try pointing out to HR that this tool isn’t doing its job if it encourages people to lie. It reads more like a CYA than an actual public health tool.

    5. Louise*

      They definitely need an outside of chronic conditions type of out. The problem is there are people who claim ‘it’s just a cold’ and meanwhile it really is COVID so I get why they are cautious. (I know someone personally who went around for a week claiming this and guess what, it wasn’t a cold.) That said as someone with migraines I would be working a lot less if that was a hardcore screening tool.

    6. emmelemm*

      I’m not sure how many people (esp. in this Covid era) can truthfully say that they’re *not* experiencing “Fatigue” at least a days out of the week.

      These are all pretty darn subjective, so I wouldn’t feel bad just answering no.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I agree with those who say that the question should read, “UNEXPLAINED symptoms”.

      And that is how I would answer the question.

    8. HahaLala*

      I had to have a repairman come to my house this year, and their screening question was “Have you had contact with anyone who has tested positive for Covid?”
      My response: “Ever? Of course I have.” ‍♀️

    9. Allergic to my Job?*

      Thank you, all for your responses!

      I appreciate that other people think this is poorly worded too; that’s really affirming, especially since no one at my school seemed to understand my concern.

      And I appreciate the sentiment that I should just answer the question as it SHOULD be written. I’ve been treating this as a legal/medical document, and maybe I just shouldn’t be taking it so literally.

      Oh, and there are other questions too – ones about exposure and recent testing, but those are all pretty reasonable. I think they just wanted to write this simply enough that high schoolers could read and answer themselves. I can understand not wanting most high schoolers (or, honestly, most of my colleagues) to decide for themselves whether its a cold or covid.

      So, I’ll fill it out in the spirit that was probably intended. And when some lawyer parent whose kid has asthma raises a stink about it and they change it, I will only say “I told you so!” on the inside. :-)

  65. Courageous cat*

    Anyone gone from a really chill, low-pressure environment to a less chill, larger company?

    Everything I hate about my current one (unlimited pto, casual dress, start/end whenever you want) is ending with my new job, and I should be very excited about it because it’s a big step up in my career, a $5k raise, and I will learn SO SO much more (the same things that make my current company chill are the same things that have stymied my career in it) – but I’m just finding myself nervous about all the bureaucracy and policies and stuff now. This is by far the biggest company I will have ever worked for.

    Tips on adjusting?

    2. ThePear8*

      I don’t know how helpful this will be, but my last internship did have a decidedly more casual culture than my current one. I think, don’t be nervous – be as reasonably professional as you can, and take your cues from others as much as possible. I knew my current company would be bigger, so I waited to see how acceptable certain things would be by watching others – is it okay to use emojis in conversation, based on how much others are using them? After a couple days of dressing nicer, can I revert to something more casual on video calls, based on what I see others wearing? Is the preference even to have video on, or is it okay to turn it off, based on whether or not the manager asks people to turn on their video? Based on how other people reach out to me, is the preference for slack or email? Do people chat about non-work related things, or is the conversation strictly professional? What sorts of non-work things might be acceptable to chat about if they do, and when and how often does non-work related chatter come up? I think like anything else, you’ll learn it as you start to get more used to working there and adapt to how the company culture is reflected in those around you. And personally I haven’t found all the bureaucracy and policies a big deal – I’ve gotten guidance on what I need to navigate to get my job done, and most of those sorts of things I don’t actually need to worry about much on a daily basis.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Do you know for sure that the dress code is stricter (or if stricter, then actually enforced) and that flexible schedules aren’t allowed? I’m asking because I’ve only ever worked for large companies/bureaucracies and I haven’t had a business casual dress code enforced since I started in the 90s, which was also the last job I had with a strict daily schedule.

      If that is something they’ve made clear, this is how I adjusted from college life to that strict (-ish, they did allow jeans on Fridays): slowly. The clothes weren’t a big deal, if anything dressing business casual made it feel like a Real Job, a step up from my part time student jobs. And I can’t really speak to adjusting to policies and processes, those are my jam so I prefer that kind of environment to relaxed or free-for-all cultures. The hardest thing by far was the schedule. Night owl + 7:30 am start time was a hard adjustment and I made it worse on myself by reverting to night owl hours every weekend. You’ll probably have to be very by the book at first while you gauge whether there is at least some flexibility around core hours, or if it’s absolutely mandatory. First job it was mandatory, other jobs it’s been flexible with core hours.

      I will say, that first job with the dress code and strict hours is still one of my favorites and very foundational to my career. I learned a LOT and it was totally worth the tradeoff.

    4. Cowgirlinhiding*

      Look very closely at the culture. I went from a small company to a larger one and have regretted the change because of the culture shock. Is having time off when you can more important than the $$. I went from having full weekends and every other Friday off to working Fridays and some weekends at home. Also, finding my boss is very micromanager, power hungry, narcistic behavior and right out scary sometimes, versus, bosses that were supportive, communicate openly, didn’t feel like I had to question their motives etc. I will admit, I miss my old job. I left because of $$.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My husband went from a low budget operation- no dress code per se, no SOPs, etc to a big international firm.

      He came home the first day and said, “They are all so professional and so smart! It’s a privilege to be with these people.” My husband was no slacker himself, so knowing him this was HIGH praise.

      Speak less, watch more. Copy others, especially the boss and senior people.
      Take it one day at a time. I always say the first day is all about where do I put my coat and purse. Well, there’s more to it than that, but that awkwardness of not being able to sit right down is really limited to the first day. On the second day you know where the bathroom is and you’ve figured out where to eat lunch. Knowing all these basics adds up.
      Keep track of people’s names. Knowing names will help you so much. When some says, “Call/email Tom” you have to know who Tom is. Write down their names if you have to.
      Treat everyone with the same level of deference and respect. It WILL get noticed.

      Biggie: They are regular people having regular lives. Somehow this can be surprising at times. Once you see the things you have in common with the people around you, any sense of being overly impressed will tone down. This is a huge help, because you can start to exhale and just concentrate on the job itself.

  66. Adjunct Faculty*

    Hello, I posted last week asking opinions on adjunct faculty jobs and the response was pretty negative lol! That is very fair given the pay, workload, and status of many adjuncts. However, I have an opportunity to be a shoe-in for a part-time adjunct role and I want to try it. Any tips for making this work well? Should I only commit to teaching one class while starting to get a sense of how much work it’ll actually be?

    1. Unfettered scientist*

      Yeah I would only commit to a small amount of work to start. Adjunct jobs definitely have a negative connotation. Esp where I am location/field-wise, they are NOT stepping stones to tenure-track faculty (if that’s your ultimate goal). If you really enjoy teaching, they can be a fun job, but I think of them more like a part-time almost volunteer activity. I would say do it on your own terms. Teach only what you want to and start off slow.

    2. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

      Main tip is to have a teaching plan but be prepared to be flexible your first semester because a lot of your first semester is calibrating your teaching style to the students you have (note: calibrating is not the same as lowering standards).
      Ask if you can observe a class because a lot of the first semester is also learning how to manage your classroom.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d taught adjunct and super enjoyed it. However, I have always done it with another full time job that I am doing. So, I wouldn’t suggest you should take it on unless you know you are going to have another way to actually make money. Anyway, I agree with Unfettered Scientist- they are not a stepping stone to tenure (most of the time), they are more work than you think, but if you enjoy teaching and like college students, they can be a hoot. I’ve never done more than one class at a time, always online.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      The original point of adjunct jobs was to pay a stipend to non faculty who had relevant expertise and were teaching a course. Think professional writer, lawyer, engineer, etc. So if you’ve got a full time job and occasionally do a single course in your field of expertise, that’s what it’s supposed to be!

      It’s when you try to actually live off a cobbled together set of unstable adjunct positions with no benefits, crappy pay, and no advancement opportunities that it becomes a serious issue.

      I will, however, note that the first few times you teach a course it’s a ton of work, likely much more than you’re expecting. Once you’ve taught a course once, the work drops, as you’ve done all the prep work, and when you’ve taught a lot of courses, you get faster at the preparation.

    5. Higher Ed Here*

      Depends- I found that one class a semester was plenty for me as i had a full time job at the time. It was great experience. If there is a syllabus that is available -dont reinvent the wheel.

    6. SummerBreeze*

      I’m not a professor but was recruited as an expert in my field to teach a semester. It was a lot of work. I only committed to teaching the follow-up class the second semester because I was child-free at the time and knew I could make it work, time-wise, even with my FT job.

      It’s a lot. Think: lots of weekend hours spent grading papers and scoping out next week’s syllabus. My class was a night class, so I’d spend all day at my job and then go to campus and not get home until 10pm.

      It was a good experience overall but I could never, and would never, do it now, as a mom of kids who also has a job. Just not worth the time.

  67. Babylon*

    I’d like to know how I can help support a direct report who is trying hard but has issues with stress. I have two direct reports, Lennier and Vir, both working in the same role. Lennier is a natural for what we do, and came to us with about 7 years experience. We hired Vir straight out of college and he’s been with us for 2 years. Lennier is very much a mentor to Vir, and they get along extremely well, covering vacations for each other and working well, even virtually for over a year now. My issue is that Vir struggles with letting us help when he’s stressed about work, and its becoming a problem. He will tell us he’s got a lot on his plate, and he’ll admit yo needing assistance and ask Lennier to do a couple things for him, but he doesn’t seem to fully embrace the offers we give for help, or understand what I’m saying when I assure him that his job is not in jeopardy, I really want him to ask for help if his workload is too extreme. I’ve done their job, and I speak to them both regularly, so I understand the work and the workload. Lennier is undoubtedly as busy as Vir, but the extra years experience is obviously helping him manage better. He offers tips to Vir as well as taking on tasks, but still Vir doesn’t want to give things up.

    I’ve been very clear that Vir can and should ask Lennier for assistance when needed, and should communicate his workload to me. I’ve been open that it is my role to help organize their workloads, and I can also offer help with both a few tasks or discussing how to manage a workload/inbox/stress levels. Vir says thanks, agrees with what I’m saying, and then – doesn’t ask. Once he even offered to take on anything to help ME, after I said I had a busy week…in a call where he’d just admitted to being stressed about workload. I appreciate the team spirit, but something just isn’t connecting.

    Any suggestions on how I can help Vir to really internalize the message, I need him to be aware of his work, ask for help when he needs it, and really, manage his stress by taking the support we’ve offered? I worry his work will suffer and priorities are being mishandled, and I’m at my wits’ end trying to make it through to him. I like him and I want him to succeed, so does Lennier, and I think Vir knows it…but, maybe not the way I need him to?

    1. Littorally*

      Something you might do is to set expectations for how much asking for help you would consider normal. Leaving things open-ended can leave Vir wondering if he asks for as much help as he feels like he needs, is he going to be signaling that he can’t handle the job?

      I had something similar with my boss. We have set amounts of time to handle paperwork, which are set by our central workforce management and aren’t really responsive to how much actual paperwork we have assigned on any given day. My boss told me “if you need more time, just ask for it” — but I ALWAYS need more time. It became a lot easier for me to ask for that time when my boss followed up with “most people ask me for about 1-2 extra hours of paperwork time a week.” So that tells me what kind of a scale we’re working with for how much time I can ask for before it starts to get excessive. Now I ask for a lot more time than I used to, because I know I’m asking for what’s normal and expected.

    2. Anon for this!*

      As someone who has trouble asking for help: Be clear about what that kind of help might actually be, both with the person asking for help and the person offering it! When I started my current position, my colleagues and bosses were fantastic about offering help, but I had no idea what kind of help I could reasonably and appropriately ask for, and the people I had to help me weren’t particularly clear either. For instance:

      I run training programs which involve locating people for my trainees to shadow, and then locating people to shadow my trainees while they start out. Doing this involves looking up the team schedule to see who’s available when, contacting the people involved to make sure their actual schedule matches up with that (no off-schedule meetings or other tasks), asking if I can assign them shadowing duties, emailing our scheduling team so that the shadowing appears on the official schedule, and finally booking meetings in Teams so that everybody knows where and with whom they are supposed to be when.

      Some time ago, I was assigned a training class that was roughly double the size we normally have. Due to the nature of our work, this doesn’t double the workload — it squares it. My boss suggested I reach out to Bob, one of our team leads, for help, so I did, saying that I needed help with the shadowing schedules, and could he take care of it? Absolutely, said Bob (who is fantastic, btw). A couple of days later, I checked up, and Bob… provided me with the official schedule. It was absolutely a miscommunication of expectations for either me or Bob, and next time I know to be clearer, but I thought Bob had already understood what was involved. It wound up being the same amount of work for me, but more rushed.

      So, what kind of help can Vir expect, and does he know that? Can he:
      a) Ask for someone else to do Task A entirely?
      b) Ask for someone to do the prep work for Task B?
      c) Ask someone to do the finesse stuff on task C once the prep work’s been done?
      and so on.

      It’s like telling someone grieving “anything you need, just ask.” That’s a big cognitive load. Saying “I can do laundry on Tuesday, bring you over a hot meal on Wednesday, sit quietly in the next room so you’re not alone on Thursday. What would you prefer?” makes it multiple choice rather than an open-ended essay question, and lets the person know that these are things you’re okay with doing so they don’t have to worry about asking for too much.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “but he doesn’t seem to fully embrace the offers we give for help, or understand what I’m saying when I assure him that his job is not in jeopardy,”

      He’s right his job is headed toward being in jeopardy. You said so here. I think you need to stop mis-representing this to him. He doesn’t believe you and it looks like he’s right.

      I guess I would say, “if you cannot learn to accept offers of help and learn to speak up more often about work loads, then YES your job will be in jeopardy. It’s not optional- you MUST learn to chose which offers of help would be best for what you see and accept those offers. And its not optional- you must speak up more often about work loads. These are two basic skills required for the job and I would expect to see this with anyone working here. If you cannot ask for help more often and cannot find offers of help that you are willing to accept then YES, your job will be in jeopardy.”

      I would probably be close to done with handholding but maybe I’d consider going through weekly meetings and reviewing each and everything on his plate and teaching him to sort that.

      Going in the opposite direction, you are the boss. Why not just pull work off of him and give it to his cohort? If you know he can’t do it, why does he have it to begin with?

      Overall, my feeling on this is with heavier work loads the boss has to jump in and organize who will handle what. Your solution might be to just be more active in the day-to-day stuff here.

    4. The teapots are on fire*

      Well, is he getting the work done and just talking about the stress quite a bit, or are you seeing things not being done correctly or prioritized incorrectly?
      I think it’s important to figure out if you’re trying to reduce his workload to manage his feelings, or if he really needs help with his work because he’s not getting it done. Then maybe you can focus on the work and offer him other resources like access to the EAP to manage the stress.

  68. A Nony Mouse Today*

    I’ve been in the working world for only a couple years, mainly in blue-collar jobs, and I’ve been looking to escape my low-paying job. I recently landed an interview for a situation which combines my two passions, which are llama-grooming and teapot painting, which will include a very nice salary bump that almost doubles my current paycheck.

    I got along very well with the interviewer, and our mutual networks include a lot of the same people. However, there is one red flag, (probably a yellow flag really) and that’s that this is a new company, and I don’t know much about their financing, or the level of experience of their owners/management, or how well they know their professional norms, or what their financial resources are for keeping the business running during the first couple years, or whether their plans for getting new clients are any good, or even very close to industry norms, and I would be leaving a very well-established company to join them.

    So I’m a little out of my depth here, and was wondering if anyone had any good scripts for how I might address these issues in a really professional fashion and avoid annoying the interviewer.

    Also, once I’ve gotten the answers, is there any way to verify them?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ask them in general terms how they see their business growing over the next few years.

      Do they plan on hiring even more employees?

      Ask them what they think one of their bigger challenges are that they would expect you to help with.

      Google the company names and the owner’s names and see what comes up. That might give you more material to talk about. Read customer reviews.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I understand the desire for stability and a good workplace. But I’d come at it from the other side — you’ve been looking for this, you want to “escape”, and it combines your passions. This is fantastic! Personally, I’d be focused on the opportunity more than the risks early in your career. Keep in mind that well established companies lay people off all the time. Whether a company is new or old, stability and a healthy culture is never guaranteed. Since you are new to work, if it’s a job that lasts a year or two, that’s okay! Take what you need from it.

      Also, wanting to know about their business model, finances, or customer strategies feels unhelpful. Even if we gave you a script, if you’re not super familiar with the ins and outs of those things then the answers won’t help you. How would you evaluate their plans for getting clients? Even people with tons of experience couldn’t necessarily do that. You could possibly ask about financing and investors, but again, what will that tell you, exactly? (An exception is if they’re a venture backed startup, like they are Series A. Then you can ask about plans for Series B/C.) If you do want to go after these questions, my advice is to wait til the end. Make sure you’re interested otherwise first.

      Most job decisions are fairly blind, honestly. You’re not in over your head, this is just the kind of behind-the-scenes knowledge candidates don’t always have visibility into. Candidates have to go a lot on vibe and reputation. Certainly ask questions about their management style, where they see the company going, plans for expansion, how they describe their culture, all those things will help. Check Glassdoor and talk to anyone you know inside, and ask people for connections inside. Google the founders, see what they’ve done before.

      Good luck!

  69. whistle*

    I gave notice this week to my dysfunctional workplace of nine years! I do not have another job lined up and plan to explore some business opportunities. I’m very excited and a little terrified.

    A big thanks to Alison and the AAM community for all the guidance provided on this site to people in similar situations. It has made me feel more comfortable with my decision.

    I would welcome any guidance on what I should do for health insurance. My husband is self-employed, so we’ve been on my company’s benefits and now have to navigate the health insurance marketplace.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      At one point I looked into signing up for group insurance in my related field (construction adjacent), but that was about the time the ACA came about and I signed up for it instead. I’m now employed by a company that includes health insurance, so that’s been a while ago.

    2. ThePear8*

      I don’t really have guidance, but do want to say congrats – that can definitely be a terrifying thing to do but best of luck finding in finding a new opportunity, and good for you for looking out for yourself!

    3. Natalie*

      Losing your employer sponsored coverage is a qualifying event for the ACA marketplace. If you start at healthcare.gov you can either get directed to your state’s marketplace or, if they don’t have one, the federal exchange. It should hopefully be reasonably straightforward but people do sometimes run into trouble, in which case do not give up and assume you just don’t get insurance! You can generally find a navigator or call the exchange itself and get problems resolved.

      Depending on your income level you may qualify for subsidies. It will help to have an estimate of your 2021 modified AGI – that’s the adjusted gross income you may be familiar with from tax forms, plus rental or other passive losses, partnership losses, IRA contributions, and a few other less common items added back in. (The subsidy threshold will be increasing in April 1st, FYI.)

    4. t*

      Sign up for the ACA! If you’re a woman, you get a free mammogram and very low-cost pap smear yearly, and your premium payments protect you from bills associated with catastophic illness.

  70. Invisible Fish*

    Educators, what do you think summer school will look like this year? I usually work it for the extra cash … this year, the number of high school students who decided to try to game the system by not doing work is probably going to lead to quite a few students needing to do the credit recapture version of summer school. I’m trying to decide if it will be chaos…. what do you think it will look like in your district?

  71. Information Central*

    Any advice on how to determine long-term career/salary goals?

    After some management shifting around, we’ve now started to see some positive changes at the department level — more ownership/involvement in our projects and workflow, ability to push back or negotiate requirements from other departments, etc. A pretty significant mindset shift from how things have been done in the past, that I think has potential for really positive results after we get some things figured out.

    One of the things they’re focusing on is career development on a more long-term scale, so they’ve started asking where we want to end up so they can help work towards it. And…I have no clue how to answer that. I know I don’t want to manage people; I like being a resource on processes and data flow. I generally like my job, especially with some of the recent changes, and would like to stick with some version of it longer-term. My job description is kind of a homebrew put together from what was needed and what I was interested in over a lot of years, so it’s hard to tease out what to compare it to or what a reasonable target might look like or where to start looking.

    1. Empress Matilda*

      I like being a resource on processes and data flow. I generally like my job, especially with some of the recent changes, and would like to stick with some version of it longer-term.

      That’s your answer right there. You don’t need to have a full career plan mapped out, and you’re not committing to anything at this stage anyway. If you’d be happy where you are for the next five-ish years, that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to say in this context. And it would be good for your management team to know that, so they don’t start slotting you into a path you’re not interested in.

      My only caution would to not limit yourself to the exact version of the job that you’re doing now – you don’t want management to leave you out of these career planning conversations entirely! Put some thought into how you might grow and expand in this job – are there any big projects you’d like to take on, or any new skills or training that could help you? Even if you don’t know exactly what you will want in the future, this is a great opportunity to think about what you *might* want, and to start laying the groundwork for getting there.

      1. Empress Matilda*

        I should also add that in my experience it’s pretty rare for organizations to take this much interest in the career development of their employees! Most of the time it’s up to the individual to just figure this kind of thing out on their own. So you should definitely take advantage of the opportunity – it may not come again for a while.

        1. Information Central*

          Thanks! Yeah, I think this is a function of this particular combination of managers; it’s definitely not something I’ve run across before. It’s a great opportunity; I just have no idea how to go about taking advantage of it. I definitely expect the job to continue to evolve as needs change and as we’re able to do more of what we want overall.

  72. Courageous cat*

    Anyone have any advice on how to say “I can’t put in my notice until my drug test has cleared” without… sounding like you do drugs?

    I plan on just saying “I have a policy about not putting in notice on contingent offers”, but when the drug test is the only thing left to clear… I dunno. Haha.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Wow, it seems completely logical to me that *anybody* would decline to give notice on a contingent offer, no matter what the contingency was. Even people who don’t do drugs can have false positives, or tests that get lost, or whatever. This would in no way make me think you must do drugs.

    2. CatCat*

      I don’t know that that makes you sound like you do drugs, but I think you can build in the assumption that it will be a clear test. If there’s an offer you want to accept and it has this contingency, I think it’s fine to say something like, “I’m delighted to accept the offer and will be able to start X weeks after the clear drug test is received.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t sound like you do drugs. I am not sure why you think you do?
      It’s pretty normal to wait for the drug test, credit check, background check to clear before giving notice. It’s a reasonable and normal thing.

      1. Lizzie*

        Can you say “I’m just waiting for my medical clearance to come through”, something like that?

  73. Shy About Biometrics*

    I’m a County employee in the US, and I’ve been working on a project in collaboration with the Sheriff’s Office to get arrested individuals out of jail and into appropriate mental health programs. After 6 months of spinning my wheels, I was just told that I need to submit my fingerprints to the Sheriff’s Office.
    I’ve never submitted fingerprints as part of a job, so I asked why this was a requirement. Someone explained that federal criminal justice information systems rules require a fingerprint-based background check, which I’m okay with. However, the Sheriff’s Office also plans to keep the fingerprint records “indefinitely” without specifying how they would be used.
    This whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. Is it reasonable to push back, even if I get moved to a different project? I doubt they can fire me over this.

    1. pancakes*

      Yeah, that would leave a bad taste in my mouth too. Try to see if there are any state or city laws on your side of this. In my city the police department is required to produce reports “on surveillance technologies such as the description and capabilities, rules, processes and guidelines, and any safeguards and security measures designed to protect the information collected,” and fingerprinting falls under that. Hopefully you can find something that says they can only keep prints x number of months or years.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Hmm, I’m a County employee as well and been in govt work almost my whole professional life, and being fingerprinted is standard. Before pushing back, I would read my MOU or other contract to see if it’s really not listed as a potential requirement. I think you may need to acquiesce to work in this sector.

      1. Shy About Biometrics*

        To clarify, I’m OK with the finger-print background check. I just don’t want the Sheriff’s Office to keep a permanent copy of my fingerprints if they can’t tell me what they plan to use them for. The only assurance I’ve gotten so far is that the prints aren’t checked as part of an “open criminal related law enforcement investigations where no charges have been filed,” which seems to leave a lot of loopholes.

        I’m used to reading Security Policies that explain why a company needs the data, what they can and cannot use the data for, and who the data will be shared with. It worries me that the Sheriff’s Office won’t tell me what they plan to use my fingerprints for.

        As a note, I was hired as part of the Human Services department, which doesn’t have these requirements, but I’m temporarily assigned to a cross-department team.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This sounds normal to me. In my county with certain jobs if you refuse then you are out the job.

          Finger prints are protected. I assume the Sheriff is the only place with proper storage and protections in place that is why they keep them. I have been to the Sheriff’s a couple times to get printed. I wasn’t thrilled but I went.

          I guess I would check with my boss to see if I had to do this (because temp job) and to see if the boss has any insight on why the prints are kept.

          Push back if you feel you must but I’m thinking more that this is just the world we have.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Hmmm … I am federal employee and have been fingerprinted for background checks but I don’t think they keep my fingerprints on file permanently. People have to redo them when they rejoin after a period of time.

      So I think this plan to keep them indefinitely is unusual. I think you can try pushing back.

    4. CatCat*

      I also think it’s weird that they’re planning to keep the fingerprints indefinitely. If they have no use for them after the background check then they shouldn’t keep them. If they do have a use for them after the background check, they should be able to explain what that use it.

      I’ve been fingerprinted for criminal background checks. It can be done by private companies. You might check that out and then pushback with an alternative solution.

    5. Kathenus*

      Former fed, fingerprinting is standard in a lot of jobs, and with the computer age these are pretty much in the system forever. I can’t speak to your individual situation but even though my position was nothing security-related if I had refused I would absolutely have been fired (or not given the job in the first place). So if that’s the case for you then you may need to decide between being fingerprinted or finding another position, as that may be the reality that you don’t have the power to change.

    6. Shy About Biometrics*

      So, it turns out it doesn’t really matter if the county keeps records, because starting in 2015 the FBI keeps a permanent record of any prints submitted as part of a background check. Further, they store the prints and biographical information in the same database as “criminal” fingerprints from bookings.
      (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/09/little-fanfare-fbi-ramps-biometrics-programs-yet-again-part-1). So anytime someone is searching the “criminal” database (thousands of times a day across the US), my fingerprints will be included in the search. And because fingerprints aren’t unique (despite popular misconception), they may actually match. So exciting!

    7. Shy About Biometrics*

      Thanks for all the advice. I’ve decided on the position that I’m okay with a fingerprint-based background check, but I would like the local Sheriff’s office to destroy their copy of the fingerprints. Preferably this would happen as soon as they submit them to the FBI, but I’d also accept it if they destroyed them after my project ends. I also want them to tell the FBI to destroy their records after the background check is complete (or after the project ends at the latest). [It turns out that, if you don’t specify the FBI needs to destroy them, your prints become a permanent part of the national criminal prints database, and the FBI shares them with numerous federal, state and local law-enforcement agencies. Thanks, US PATRIOT Act.]

      This feels like a reasonable position for my situation considering that working with the Sheriff’s office and undergoing fingerprinting was not a part of my job description and I have several coworkers who could do the project instead.

  74. New Glasses New Problem*

    I’ve been unemployed for a few months and during that time period my eyes decided to give out so now for the first time in my life I’m wearing prescription glasses. When I chose my frames, I was only thinking about what style would make me happy and ended up with a pair of oversized round black glasses that are very “geeky cute”. (I will link directly to the glasses I bought in a reply in case the filter catches it)

    Now that my job hunt is picking up again, I’m second guessing if my choice of glasses are “office appropriate”, and if “office appropriate” glasses styles are even a thing I should be concerned about? Does anyone have any insight to this? I imagine if this is an issue it varies by industry/role so for clarity I was a administrative assistant in a medical office wearing business casual before I was laid off and I expect to end up in a similar admin/receptionist type role in a medical setting where I’ll either be wearing business casual or a uniform/scrubs.

    1. OyHiOh*

      I’ve worn glasses since 5th grade and all my working life. I’m an office manager and have a business casual “uniform.” I’ve literally never worried about my glasses being office appropriate, even when I worked in an office with a dress code for pants and blouses and an issued uniform blazer.

      1. BlueBelle*

        I just had my first ever eyeglass prescription put in this week! Don’t worry about your glasses I am sure they will be fine. I think of eyeglasses similar to shoes and earrings- they are an accessory that shows some personality. I doubt they are so over the top anyone would think twice.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Basically everyone I work with wears glasses that look like this. Don’t stress!

      2. CatCat*

        These are totally fine. I think the only thing you’ll hear about them is, “I love your glasses!”

      3. Lyudie*

        Those are a little funky perhaps but you will be fine! Love them and I doubt anyone will think twice about them, unless it’s to tell you how nice they are.

      6. Lucette Kensack*

        100% fine. The only glasses I can imagine being inappropriate in some workplaces are “costumey” (like very dramatic cat-eyes, or frames covered in purple faux gemstones or something).

        2. Nicki Name*

          Dame Edna glasses are pretty much the only kind I can imagine that would be work-inappropriate.

      8. t*

        Now I know where Buzzy Cohen, the “Jeopardy!” contestant, got his glasses.

        They’re fine; they show personality. Wear them with pride!

    3. ThatGirl*

      I cannot imagine a pair of glasses that are inappropriate for work, unless they have pinup girls painted on them or an obscene or hateful message.

    4. Rainy*

      If the frames said “FUCK” or something they’d be office inappropriate. Anything else, I wouldn’t ever worry about.

  75. BKB*

    My spouse has just recently entered the job market (in an extremely competitive, niche field in higher education) and is facing down some upcoming Big Interviews. I’ve been helping him prep for these interviews and we’ve disagreed about a certain line of questioning.

    Obviously he’ll be asked the classic “Why do you want to work here / Why would you be a good fit for this position?” and is prepared for that, but he also wants to turn it around and ask his interviewers “Why do you want to hire me / What about my resume made you want to interview me?” He says he wants to know what exactly would make him an attractive candidate or not, but I don’t think this is the best idea … but admittedly my job field is really different, and while I’d never ask an interviewer point blank “Why do YOU think I’d be a good fit?” maybe these things are different when one is interviewing for a faculty position at a prestigious university, as opposed to, I don’t know, something more entry-level in a less competitive field? Does anyone have thoughts?

    1. BlueBelle*

      instead of asking “why do you want me?” It would be better to ask “what would make an ideal fit for the team or position?” “what skills would complement or round out the team?” This puts them less on the spot about giving him direct feedback but it still lets him know who they are looking for.

      Good luck!

      1. BlueBelle*

        If someone asked me “why do you want me” or “what made you want to interview me?” I would be really turned off and have a hard time not thinking they think I am doing them a favor.

        1. Weekend Please*

          Yep. If someone asked me those questions the answers would be “I’m not sure I do want to hire you. That’s why we are here.” and “You seemed to meet the search criteria.” That won’t give insight into anything.

          I am in academia and those questions will turn off the search committee. It’s his job to convince them he would be great in the job, not their job to convince him he would do great. There are enough egos involved in academia that you really don’t want to come off as a diva in the interview. Instead, he should focus on what the university can offer to him, what their student body is like and other question that boil down to “Why should I take this job?”

          If he wants feedback on why he is an attractive candidate, he should ask faculty at his current university who have been on search committees in the past look over his research and teaching statements and give him feedback. He can also ask for that feedback from faculty from grad school or old classmates as well. Asking his interviewers during his interview is not the way to go.

    2. Catherine*

      As someone who does interviews, I’d advise against this. I usually find this question kind of annoying. The answer is usually just “you seem to meet the qualifications outlined in the job description.” I often don’t really understand the purpose of the question. He should already know what makes him an attractive candidate and should be focused on demonstrating that through the process rather than asking the interviewing team to tell him.

    3. Rainy*

      There are lists of classic faculty-position questions out there (the chronicle blog, etc) and I wouldn’t advise that he ask this one. Ask substantive questions about the department and its focus and environment (collegiality, any new initiatives or programs, etc). If he asks why they wanted to interview him, he’s going to look grad-student-y.

      The big five questions for academic faculty are usually considered to be these: Tell us a little bit about your research. Why are you interested in this position? Talk us through the next five years. How will you teach our X course? Do you have any questions for us?

    4. Emilitron*

      If it’s in a less high-brow environment, it’s a terrible question, asking why they’d want to hire him could sound like he either has no confidence (really?! you’d want to hire me?!?) or that he’s somehow mystified/confused and doesn’t see the relevance (I never saw my llama-grooming talents as being applicable to snake-oiling, but maybe you can explain why you called me), and it’s just not a good look. But if he refines the wording to ask what he really means, it could definitely work in an academic environment. I’d preface it with a few statements about himself (I feel strongly about A, B, and have a strong track record in C, D) and what he knows about the school (I can see that you value B and C, and we just talked about E) then ask an impersonal version of the question – what would you see as important for this candidate? would you put more weight on a candidate with B or C?, or say what he thinks and ask for confirmation. (Given your strong values on B and C, that seems like a good match with my experiences C and B – is that one of the reasons you thought we should talk?) But I agree I don’t like the bare-bones phrasing of “what about my resume made you want to interview me?”

    5. CatCat*

      Unless they highly sought him out, I think it’s silly and presumptuous to ask why they want to hire him. The whole point of the interview is for the to find out if that’s the case.

      Also, asking what made them interview him… who cares? How does that question help? I think it’s better to ask if there’s anything on his resume that gives them reservations so that he can address those and build himself as a stronger candidate. Because then he has what is already on his resume that they like (and will probably ask about in their own) AND has a chance to address anything that may be holding him back.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I have been on faculty hiring committees, interviewed by them, and hired some. This is not a good question. Being asked, “Why do you want to hire me / What about my resume made you want to interview me?” would turn me off instantly. I’ve been asked it before and basically the answer is, “Well, you seemed capable of the job.” I mean, what other answer is he expecting? And he’s wasting the chance to ask a more meaningful question.

      Instead, I would focus on questions about the job that help him discover if he wants the job. A few of my favorites: “What goals would you describe as the most important for this position?”
      “What are a few of the different challenges you would expect the person in this position to face?”
      “Thinking back to people you’ve seen do this work previously, what differentiated the ones who were good from the ones who were really great at it?” (An Allison Classic that I have found super effective.)

    7. Qwerty*

      How would he react if the answer was “This interview was put on my calendar by HR” ?

      First round interviews are often not conducted by the same person who screened the resumes and did the initial HR phone screen. At some companies I’ve been given a list that was filtered down by HR or another team member. Or the first round interview is not conducted by the hiring manager but someone lower on the chain.

      Theoretically he’s sending in a cover letter that explains why he’d be a good fit for the position. So after telling them how he’d be great for the job, he’s basically asking why they believe him? The way this is being presented just feels so negative that I don’t even want to give a suggestion on how to rephrase it because I’m questioning WHY he’s asking this. He’s trying to take a softball question that gives a candidate a chance to sell themselves and highlight their most relevant skills and instead turn it around on the interviewer.

    8. Reba*

      I have interviewed for teaching roles, been to a lot of faculty job talks, and sat on a committee as a non-voting grad student.

      He could certainly ask how the committee sees his specialization fitting into the makeup of the department/school (especially if this would be a hire where courses could be cross listed in other depts or there are people from other depts on the committee). Or, what are they hoping that filling this position will do/offer that they don’t do now? Offer courses on new areas? Raise the profile of the department? This will help give context to the role.

      But yeah, as written the question reads as either weirdly aggressive or just inane.

      This could just be the place/field where I was trained, but I saw my profs get really turned off by someone who was too sort of businesslike in their onsite visit (their job talk was much more like a pitch with work history, not a presentation of their research as such). They wanted to relate to the candidates first as a fellow scholar and rate them accordingly. I can’t imagine a question like this going over well in “prestigious university” context! Maybe in the business school?

    9. Not So NewReader*

      He’s going to sound like he is mocking them by mimicking their own question back to them. It could sound disrespectful.

      Better to ask something like what does makes the difference between a good worker and a great worker in this job you have open?

  76. Lizabeth*

    I have a question about giving notice to retire. I have been working remotely for about 2 1/2 years because of parent. They have since passed away (pre-Covid shutdown) and I’m riding out the pandemic here instead of up north where I normally live. Been looking around here for jobs in my field but since it’s a more rural, small town size there aren’t many listings within a reasonable commute. My current company is still in decent shape sales-wise but upper management leaves a LOT to be desired (picture managing up constantly and non-stop radio silence on information needed to do the job). We succeed in spite of them, not because of them.

    Been thinking to give notice at the beginning of December to retire on December 31. I don’t want to leave my immediate supervisor hanging (she’s great BTW). Is 4 weeks to much or should I give the normal two weeks notice?
    Thanks!

    1. Neosmom*

      My spouse had the retirement notice conversation with his boss TODAY! He has lots of paid vacation time stored up and offered the following: Full time work through 4/30, 20 hours work and 20 hours PTO for subsequent weeks until his paid leave is exhausted.

      This continues his 401K contributions and health insurance and provides employer with lots of time to find a replacement. Perhaps you could do something like this. Otherwise, one full month is plenty of notice for retirement. Congratulations to you!

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I basically agree with Neosmom on all counts, with the caveat that December is a bit impacted and doesn’t exactly count as a full working month. If you are deadset on your last day being Dec. 31 (for tax purposes? because wouldn’t your last check still be cut in January, leading to another tax year?), maybe think about giving notice sometime in November, earlier being better. At my workplace, the culture is such that if you are retiring on your own terms and have an amicable relationship with your manager, you might give a heads-up months in advance, then formal notice 4 weeks or so before the date. Retirement is a much different scenario than leaving for a new job, again this might be workplace culture in the public sector where once someone is approaching 60 we all generally assume they might retire any day now anyway!

    3. Kathenus*

      You might want to check some details on your employer’s policies. For example where I work if you give notice at the end of a calendar year but are working into the new calendar year, you are not eligible for that new calendar year’s raise (which in our pension system affects your pension amount). How/when you accrue PTO may also be something to consider, or bonuses and such. In some positions/organizations when you give notice or retire don’t affect these things but in some it can make a huge difference so best to understand it to help decide on timing.

    4. Lizabeth*

      I hadn’t thought about the bonus…good point! They give year-end bonuses based on sales to everybody. And if they knew I was bugging out they might not pay that to me. Vacation is use it or lose it by year’s end so that’s not a big deal.

      We usually do 4 product releases a year with the last one going out right after Christmas/Jan. 1 so putting in the notice in January for January 31 might make more sense. I definitely want to be free by February so I can go work on a goat farm during their birthing season – it’s on the bucket list. Baby goats!

  77. Catherine*

    Anyone have success pushing back on “Wellness” initiatives at work that are focused on the employee taking on additional “self-care” work and tips instead of the company giving more time off, more money, or work life balance?

    For context, I am super burned out after this year. We haven’t gotten raises or bonuses, have gotten additional work streams , and we haven’t been able to backfill roles. I’ve found the wellness stuff stupid when overworked and underpaid, but I was fine to roll my eyes at it. My small team has started to express feelings of extreme burn out and have said that the wellness focus is “insulting” since they’re adults who know how to take care of themselves, but aren’t able to due to poor compensation and being overworked. I agree and want to do something, but as middle management, I’m not sure how I can express this sentiment. I’m afraid they’re close to quitting and this is a big signal that the company doesn’t care about them.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Campfire Raccoon*

      Yikes. Talk about being out of touch. Is there someone above you that you can communicate this with?

      As an employer I find this crap patronizing and infantilizing. They’re adults. If they had the time and resources to practice self-care, they wouldn’t need it in the first place! Give them their raises, dagnabbit.

      As a mother, being told “You need to practice self-care!” is a jerk-hole reminder that I work full-time and cover the second and third shift at home. But sure, Instagram Karen. I’ll shoulder the emotional load of self-care too, and be sure to feel guilty when I can’t manage to squeeze it in.

    2. Natalie*

      Well, it sounds like the wellness stuff is more of a symptom then the actual problem so I don’t know that I would focus on it. If you succeed, and they stop sending out the newsletter or whatever, is that really going to help anyone feel less burnt out? And I know, everyone loves to say “give raises”, but the cost of the meditation app my company pays for works out to about $5/paycheck. And that’s before taxes.

      Use your energy on the staffing and compensation issues.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, all you can do is speak the truth and then if they don’t listen what happens …happens.

      Tell them that no one has had raises, bonuses but their workloads have increased and empty spots have not been filled. It’s tone deaf to tell exhausted employees to prepare salads and take walks. They can’t. Additionally the messages come across as condescending and as a fake substitute for what is really needed, adequate pay, time off and more employees. Then say point blank, if things do not change we will be losing people and they probably will not bother to explain why.

  78. Cookies for Breakfast*

    Has anyone used online video interviewing tools, and if so, what was your experience?

    I’ve been invited for an initial screen by a company that uses one. There will be no human interviewer on the other side – just me, with my camera on, talking at my computer and submitting the recorded answers for them to review.

    This is for a company I would love to work at, and for a very stretch role. I’m surprised, delighted, and a little worried that interview nerves + recording myself will be a recipe for extreme awkwardness :D

    1. Rainy*

      I don’t like them, but my organization uses them so I’ve done them and so do most applicants. The biggest thing is to make eye contact with the camera or somewhere in the vicinity, and practice the usual interview questions with a friend over zoom. You do have a chance to do a practice run with most of those online video tools, so take that chance. It will be okay if it’s a little awkward; everyone is slightly awkward on those things. :)

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        Interesting that the first two replies are both from people that don’t like them! And thanks for the tip of looking into the camera, I tend to forget to do that even when taking selfies on my phone :D The software apparently has an option to hide your video while you talk, so I hope that will help.

    2. Catherine*

      I review these as part of my job! I personally don’t like them, but when we’re at capacity we use it to make sure we can screen all qualified candidates. One thing that might make you feel better—my team’s policy is to NOT watch the video and only listen to the audio. Just relax and pretend it’s a phone interview. You’ll do great!

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        Thank you! That’s a great policy, I think I’d do the same if I was on the hiring side :) Out of curiosity, what do you not like about them?

    3. ThePear8*

      I did one of these once. It felt VERY weird recording myself responding to the questions, haha. The part I found annoying was when they decided to move me on to the next round interviewing with an actual person, they asked me pretty much all the same questions I had already recorded answers to…

      Anyway, my main advice would be plan ahead of time to give yourself time and a quiet space to do it. This’ll give you some time to practice and figure out how to use the software (the one I used I think had a practice mode so I could do some practice questions and figure it out before recording the real thing), and make sure it’s quiet. When I did mine I picked what I thought was a relatively secluded area of my outdoor college campus and then felt awkward when a very loud airplane flew overhead while recording one of my answers…

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        Ouch, I hear you. I’ve been asked the same questions in interviews by different humans, I can imagine how annoying it must be when you’ve already fed your answers to the tool that’s mean to speed up the process.

        I’ve been told I can answer as many practice questions as I want, so I’ll be taking plenty of time for that! The quiet spot will be harder – there are roadworks on my street pretty much every day. I hope I can work around that by doing it on Sunday, though who knows, that’s probably when the neighbours will get noisy. Anyway, I’ve usually been acknowledging it briefly in video call interviews so far (“let me apologise in advance for any background noise”, then move on), and might do that in this situation too. Thank you so much for the advice :)

    4. Courageous cat*

      Yeah, I did one recently (and was offered the job). It was easy, only 5 questions, and they give you the opportunity to do a practice answer first. I also got time to think about the answer as long as I wanted before starting.

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        I’ll have 30 seconds to prepare for each question, other than that it sounds like the same tool. I’m hoping to use the 30 seconds to revise the notes I made on points I want to cover in my answers. I’m not the best at improvising, and I’d imagine glancing at the notes document while recording is a big no-no even without a human on the other side.

        Congratulations on getting the offer (and, as a cat person, great job on the screen name too)!

        1. allathian*

          Put your notes document on a stand beside your phone/computer, or stick it on the wall near the camera so that you can refer to it without looking down…

          1. Cookies for Breakfast*

            Thank you! I thought placing my notes window in the middle of the screen, roughly where the camera is, could do the trick. I had my partner review one of the practice questions, and it turns out my eyes were still wandering too much. I ended up not needing the notes at all…the questions were completely different to what I’d expected!

    5. comityoferrors*

      My org does this too. Since it sounds like you don’t get multiple records (huge bummer! ours allowed an unlimited number of re-dos which is what made the process bearable for me), I would recommend doing some test runs of basic practice questions on your own before you start this. IMO it was *very* weird to answer a written question out loud to my empty kitchen. By the last question, I didn’t need to redo any responses because I had gained my footing. But the first two I definitely did…then redid…then maybe redid once more because gosh darn it, I still sound like a squeaky terrified mouse and I’m staring at my fridge in the background instead of looking at the camera! If you can get the video awkwardness out of the way earlier in the day or the previous night, I think it will help a lot.

      I’m interested if this is true for other people – my org has a standardized set of questions for this step. So none of the questions were specific to the role I interviewed for, and I had to really stretch to come up with applicable answers for a few of them. Because of that, I recommend having some very general scenarios you can apply to broad questions. I think ours are something like: 1. how do you value and prioritize the patient in your work? (we’re healthcare, “client” or “customer” would be the equivalent I guess); 2. what is one way you excel at supporting your colleagues?; 3. describe a time you had conflict with a colleague; 4. ?????; 5. ??????. I forgot the last two because I was in the groove at that point and could fire off answers. But it definitely took a perspective shift on my end; in my experience, first-round interviews have been about rattling off my qualifications for the job itself, and this process definitely did not have that.

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        Honestly, even one redo per question would have made a difference. The questions were completely different to what I’d expected (from the practice in the software, from the interview questions I’d spotted on Glassdoor, and from what I know about the industry). They were very specific to the role, rather than the standardized questions I thought they’d go through at this stage. While I think I came up with okay examples, I also think I’d have done much better with a person on the other side, with more than 3 minutes per answer and opportunities to clarify my thinking.

        Did I sound like a squeaky terrified mouse? Yes. Did I ramble, because I was scared of stopping to think and losing both momentum and precious time? Also yes. But hey, I never even thought I’d pass the CV screen, so maybe I’m the unreliable narrator here :)

  79. PumpkinSpiceParty*

    Following a restructuring my role has changed significantly, with additional duties and areas of responsibility, the latter of which have elevated my role seniority (this isn’t a result of a colleague leaving etc. – we’ve change the way we do business and my role has expanded to meet this). I’ve spoken to my boss and he acknowledges the change and is happy for me to renegotiate my title but is less helpful on the salary front. Mine is the only role where there’s been an obvious change to duties s a result of the restructuring, but my boss feels it may open the floodgates to everyone wanting a raise every five minutes. If it were you would you be happy with just a shiny new title? Money isn’t a huge issue for me but a part of me would feel cheated (I think!) if I didn’t fight for a raise to accompany the title.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      You’re right to want financial compensation for new duties and responsibilities. F the title!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What would they do if they did not have you already there? They would have to hire a well-chosen person and pay them market rates.

      As far as “everyone wanting a raise every five minutes”… Uh he could, you know, pretend he’s the boss and handle that problem. Tell them no. Get them some type of raise. Or explain that because you have more duties and responsibilities you are getting a raise- this is not a foreign concept in workplaces.

    3. Grim*

      I Once negotiated my title from senior technician to Engineer as I was doing more design, engineering work.

      This title change allowed me to go from doing technician work to becoming an engineer with no degree.

  80. Anon In England*

    I have spent the last few works overseeing a redundancy process (lay off) and have to give the individual selected the news today that it is going ahead (there’s formal process which requires various meetings and consultations, so they knew they are ‘at risk’ and that it was likely that it would happen, but this is when they get the news it is definite, and that they are the the one selected .

    Obviously much worse for them than me, and I will keep the meeting professional, and they’ll be able to go as soon as we’ve spoken.

    However, they will be working through their notice (normal here) .
    Has anyone (UK based is likely to be most helpful as I know notice periods are much shorter in the US) been through this as an employee, and if so, where there any things you found helpful / wish had been done differently in how your employer treated you during your notice period?

    As standard they will be able to take paid leave for any job interviews etc and in line with people leaving for other reasons will agree with them when the rest of the staff are told that they are leaving (although I believe they’ve already chosen to tell some coworkers that they have been put ‘at risk’ for redundancy ) and would normally just say that they are leaving, and when their last day will be, so it’s up to them whether they chose to share that it was a redundancy as opposed to them having found a new job and chosen to leave.

    For what it’s worth, we’re a small independent company so no dedicated HR department. The person who is being made redundant normally works relatively independently but I am their line manager for things where one is needed, and we have to meet up for certain parts of our respective roles, and will need to work together on handing over their work and transitioning out, so letting them avoid me completely isn’t possible.

    Even though I know this is the right decision for the business and in truth, is quite generous to the individual concerned as there were grounds for us to go down the disciplinary / firing route (difference is that redundancy means they they get a payment which in their case is equivalent to about 3 months salary) I have found it really stressful , although I have, I hope, been professional and focused on them not me in all our meetings etc.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I’ve only experienced one round of redundancies, and actually it worked out quite nicely in many ways: particularly since like your situation the employee was already skating dangerously close to being fired.

      The company did quite a lot during work hours to help the redundant employee find a new job – CV polishing with content from previous reviews, discussing transferable skills and where they’d fit. We had a(n optional) leaving lunch with excellent attendance and a collection went round that was generously contributed to.

      Ultimately she wasn’t happy to be leaving, but it was a gentler process than it could have been.

      Spouse has had to make reports redundant several times (at his old job) so I’ll ask him later if there’s anything he’d add from a management rather than colleague perspective.

  81. Elizabethan*

    Almost two years into working for a new manager I am repeatedly having a problematic interaction. Today I confirmed with another colleague that they are having them issue. Context: While this person is new as my manager, they did manage a large team for many years, including the colleague who also has noticed the issue.

    Issue: We go through a meeting with an outside party, I do my job of reviewing proposals and then, in the last five minutes of the meeting, boss steps in and undoes all of the work I’ve been doing. This is not malicious–I truly believe they think they are being helpful. Related, they will have side meetings with the outside parties without the staff who are actually assigned to the project. Frankly, I feel like I am being undermined.

    Any suggestions for how to address this with my boss?

    I’m okay with them having different opinions from me, my previous boss did. The issue is how they are raised and the side meetings.

    1. Bagpuss*

      I think maybe with the outside meetings, address it as “I’ve noticed that you have met with / talked with clients on projects x and y, where I, or other staff working on the projects aren’t present. I do appreciate that it can be difficult to avoid if a client contacts you but unfortunately, it has led to some issue, as those of us working on the projects are not then aware of the additional discussions, and at times it means that the information you give them isn’t up to date. Could I ask that you redirect clients to me / my team when they relate to our projects, or ensure that we are invited to any meetings?”

      I think with the issues where you are there , maybe an initial conversation immediately after it happened to ask her to clarify her thinking – this could be something along the lines of “Can you clarify way you told Jean-Luc the laser cannons would be available by Friday? Geordi and I had advised him that they wouldn’t be available until next week. We gave him that timescale taking into account because of the need to carry out the safety checks and the fact that it takes 48 hours to align them after installation, so it wouldn’t be possible to get it done by Friday if we follow the standard procedure – have I missed a memo changing the process for that?” In other words, raise it as if on the assumption that there is some new information which she had and you didn’t that changed the advice / information to give to the client.

      I think if you get on well with her and she is normally approachable you could actually say that you appreciate that she is seeking to be helpful, but ask her whether she has concerns about your work or communication style – explain you’ve noticed that she often jumps in at the end of a meeting and either goes over points you’ve already covered, or contradicts what you’ve done, and that it often has the effect of undoing work you’ve done (give some concrete examples if you can. Ask whether she would be willing to step back a little, and to speak to you privately after the meeting if she has anything she feels you didn’t address.

      That way, if it is intended to be supportive / helpful, you can perhaps explain it isn’t (and maybe think of things which would be helpful – for instance, if she is there because of her seniority, just saying something like ” Elizabethan seems to have covered everything, but contact her if you need to review anything we’ve discussed”

      Good luck.

      1. Elizabethan*

        Thank you. I’ve been feeling kind of helpless about this–like many people, I am not good at confrontation. But you have some great suggestions about how to engage constructively. We are in a creative field (although, now I want to sell laser cannons) so differences of opinion are not unexpected. But refocusing the discussion to the appropriate staff seems like a good way to approach it. Along with the focus that we know they are trying to be helpful so try to address it in that context. I’m actually thinking that maybe something along the lines of it being confusing for the outside parties to hear from different people might be a way to start approaching it.

  82. Lisa and Pam*

    My coworker, Lisa, is nice, but in a tries-too-hard or too-much kind of way. She stops at my desk multiple times a day, wanting to know how I’m doing, what I did last night, what I’m doing tonight, what am I working on, etc. She interrups most of my lunch break to talk about what I’m eating or what I’m reading. It’s enough that it feels invasive. She doesn’t take hints or listen if I say I can’t talk right now. My other coworker, Pam, has gotten to the point where she ignores Lisa unless she has a work question. (Previously Pam was saying she couldn’t talk right now and then turning away, but then Lisa kept asking if she was okay or if she was mad at her.)

    Lisa keeps venting to me about how she has no idea why Pam is so “mean” to her but nice to me. I just tell her to not worry about it and to leave Pam alone. Should I be saying something?

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      Its not your job to help Lisa have better relationships. But sometimes it can be a real kindness to explain to people what’s wrong so they actually have a chance to change the annoying behavior. Imagine being in Lisa’s shoes, trying your hardest to be friendly every day – trying so hard, in fact, that you annoy everyone. Then people are snide to you, and you don’t understand why? It must feel really bad and hopeless. And sometimes someone giving you a little hint can go a long way in improving all your relationships.

    2. Colette*

      You shouldn’t speak for Pam, but you can put limits on your interactions with Lisa. “Hey Lisa, I want to make some progress on this book today, so I’ll talk to you later” (and then turn away); “Well, I’ve got to get back to work, talk to you later”; “Did you need something? If not, we’ll catch up later”, “You should talk to Pam about these questions”.

      Lisa may not like that, or may feel like you’re being mean, but that’s on her, not you.

    3. allathian*

      Do you think you can keep this up forever? If not, I think it would be better to say something now rather than wait until you’re really mad at her one day and it all comes out in a much nastier way than you meant.

  83. Not A Girl Boss*

    What do you make of gruff interviewers? You know, the kind that make you acutely aware that they’re there to judge you, and seem to have a goal of putting you on the defensive? Is it a warning sign of a bad future boss?

    Back in college, I had an interview where I hung up and cried about how much they hated me, only to get the job minutes later. That boss ended up being the single most amazing manager of my career. He was just ruthlessly choosey about who he hired.

    But 10+ years later, having a repeat occurrence, I’m wondering if the guy who interviewed me is just a jerk. He knocked me so off balance that I feel he didn’t really get an accurate assessment of my skills, because he didn’t give me time to formulate thoughtful sentences.

    For context, I work in a highly technical field, where it’s very common for great technical experts to get promoted to be managers with 0 people skills. I suspect he’s one of them. Which, is fine, I can work with that, it’s basically my entire job to translate feedback from difficult or unclear sources (project management). But when poor management manifests as micromanaging and talking-down at me (especially with casually sexist undertones), it drives me crazy.

    1. Colette*

      Gruff isn’t a big issue for me, but casual sexism is.

      I’d also put some value on talking to potential coworkers (and ask to do so if you aren’t offered the chance) – they can give you a better idea of what the manager is like to work with.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Thanks. I agree that gruff isn’t a big deal, but after being impacted so many times by sexism in this industry, I feel kind of like a crazy person reading too much into every communication.
        To be honest, it was such a relief that my reporting chain at my current job is primarily women and I didn’t have to over-analyze. Not that they don’t come with their own challenges… But at least I have a shot at earning their respect.

        I always struggle with how to ask questions about the culture. It’s not really like I can come out and ask people “does your boss scream at you?” Or “do you think women tend to be less intelligent than men?”
        I don’t even think I’m *that* culture sensitive. I just don’t want to leave my “fine” job to go back to a toxic dumpster fire.

        1. Colette*

          Some questions:
          – what’s a day like in this job?
          – what would you say Manager’s strengths are? What about weaknesses?
          – what do you like most about your job?
          – how does work get distrbuted throughout the team?

  84. Ann Perkins*

    I’ll throw this out there to see if anyone knows the answer. Does Equal Pay Act apply when the coworkers are not there at the same time? Example scenario: man works in Job A, there’s nobody else who does that job at the organization. Is there for five years and gets paid 60k at first with increasing salary over the five years to 90k before leaving. Woman replaces him, gets paid 60k but after five years still only gets paid 70k. Has identical education and background and experience. Does Equal Pay Act apply when the coworkers in question are at the org at different times even if the job is substantially the same?

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      “…in such establishment for equal work on jobs the performance of which requires equal skill, effort, and responsibility, and which are performed under similar working conditions, except where such payment is made pursuant to (i) a seniority system; (ii) a merit system; (iii) a system which measures earnings by quantity or quality of production; or (iv) a differential based on any other factor other than sex”

      I (not an employment lawyer) have always interpreted this to mean that, so long as total years of relevant experience is similar, you should be paid similarly. More importantly, if the type and quality of work is the same, you should be paid the same. I believe the seniority system pertains to very formal systems, such as a union where all promotions are offered in seniority order and all pay is based on years of experience.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t know, but I think the facts of this case would be hard to prove. We altered our company annual increase structure, we don’t value that work as much as we used to, company profits dropped or expenses rose and impacted all raises, the two people did not improve and increase skills at the same rate.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        I agree, I don’t feel like I would have anything for a lawsuit. I’ve been pondering on this as I’m looking for a new job and this is directly one of the reasons why and I’m wondering whether I should share my feedback on this in an exit interview. My employer has come a long way in the DEI space but still has a lot to learn. I doubt there’s any internal systems in place related to wage equity since it’s a small employer.

    3. Colette*

      What has happened to the job market in that field in those years? It might be legit, or it might not.

  85. Gingerbread*

    How long should I wait for Allison to answer a question? I need help soon but don’t want to mess up her queue. I sent it on 2/19.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I believe that if you sent the question a month ago, you can ask here now.

      Sometimes she answers older questions and might mention in the answer it’s been in her queue for a while, but I think after a month you’re good to ask here.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I ask that you wait at least a few weeks.

      My response time really varies — sometimes it’s really fast (within a couple of days) and sometimes it can take a few months or even longer, since my backlog is large and I don’t answer in the order things are received. But I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than a few weeks, especially when a response isn’t guaranteed.

      Also, if you want, you can always email me and ask if I have yours in the “about to definitely answer” queue, and I can let you know.

  86. Claire*

    I’m in early 20s and my first serious job. It is a small company and I’m far younger than all my coworkers, 17 years apart from the youngest one. I notice a pattern of snide comments which I let it slide but it doesn’t stop, on the contrary it increases every day. My tiniest requests turn into hostage negotiations. For instance, I wanted ‘the’ added into one of our reports for heading to read better. Not only was it refused but I notice an ongoing mockery between 3 of them. They keep saying things like ‘Ohh add a the in there.’ or ‘Ugh, heading needs to read better though’ etc. These comments are quite out of context and I’m sure they’re trying to mock me. I don’t want to call them out in case I’m perceived aggressive, also it is really hard to prove. Do I continue to let it slide? How do I even call them out?

    2. Colette*

      If it makes sense, you can be polite but confused. “I’m sorry, was I unclear? When I read the heading out loud, it sounded unnatural”, or “Did you need something? I thought I heard my name”.

      But also … is this your job? Are you responsible for the report, or did you just notice something outside of your area and suggest an improvement? If you’re not, I’d stop pointing this kind of thing out.

      1. Claire*

        Thanks – yes, it was part of my job (technical review). I think they want me to be too scared to suggest anything and to do my job fully. I do feel like I need to push back but also don’t want to be the office jerk.

        1. Colette*

          Do you have the authority to not pass the documents? I.e. is this a review finding that needs to be fixed? You may need to own your authority and just calmly reiterate “Yes, please add the “the” so that we can relesase the report”.

    3. a small houseplant*

      “Oh, wow, Janet, are you referring to the meeting last week? That was last week.”
      Once I was working on a public report and the boss kept editing to incorrect English, she was not American, and I would fix it, and then she would change it back, and finally I was like, hey, her name is on it, she can keep it wrong. So Not my circus, not my monkey can apply sometimes.

  87. a small houseplant*

    Short question: Recommend some business books with a focus on managing with people and…having discussions? People managing? Difficult conversations?

    I’m dealing with some drama in a professional situation, and the leadership is dealing with it. We are figuring out how to approach and have a conversation with the drama causing person, and during this discussion, one person said she had taken a management workshop that suggested framing it as BOC- Behavior, Outcome, and Change. I thought that was super useful. I was thinking about an article I read recently about de-radicalization and how it is a longer conversation over time, and how the person tries to build a connection with the client by what they agree on. These all are great strategies! I want to know more! I am not managing currently but I’m hoping to eventually. There are SO MANY business books and many of them just seem like trying to sell a management seminar.

    1. Reba*

      There’s a training and a book called “Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking when the stakes are high.” I haven’t done it, but my org offers it from time to time and it’s well regarded. There are also lots of reviews of said material, so you should be able to get a sense if it’s what you’re looking for.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most by Douglas Stone

      1. Filosofickle*

        This book changed my life. I read it in grad school. Made my work team read it. Even my partner and I read it together. Cannot recommend it highly enough.

    4. tab*

      I like “Fierce Conversations: Achieving success in work and in life, one conversation at a time” by Susan Scott.

  88. Lives in a Shoe*

    I’m not sure what the protocol around this is, but I need to figure out a way to tell my immediate boss what I need in terms of feedback, and I’m not 100% sure how to do that. The feedback I receive isn’t actionable, and feels a lot like my work just being redone for style reasons. I’m very open to changing what I’m doing, but need a different approach from my boss.

    Our overall boss is wonderful, just wonderful, and I would feel comfortable going to them for pointers about talking to my immediate boss. On the other hand, my immediate boss is new in the role, and I don’t want to do any under-bus throwing.

    Is it somehow wrong to ask for tips in this situation?

    1. Kathenus*

      When you get feedback from your new boss can you specifically ask during the conversation for action items to help you implement their feedback? If they say something general like – ‘you should use a more casual tone’ – discuss either specific examples where you didn’t or just some general scripts to illustrate what they mean. In framing this, you could be pretty direct and tell your new boss that you really want to get and implement their feedback but that since some of it is stylistic that having examples/scripts/etc. is important for you to make sure you understand what they’d like you to work on. With a new boss letting them know what you need from them in a situation like this can be really helpful, and if done in a collaborative and friendly way can also help develop a stronger and more open communication and relationship.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, it seems that a lot of my work is being redone for style reasons. I’d really like to get it right on the first shot and avoid making someone redo it. What suggestions do you have for me?”

  89. Recommendation for JustATech*

    A few weeks back you asked about how to get experience with lab techniques, without potentially needing to take a more entry-level or junior role.

    You might want to look into the New England Biolabs Molecular Biology Summer Workshops (link in the comments). It is pricey, but I thought I’d pass on the information.

  90. NewToThis*

    Several weeks ago, I took mysterious medical leave from work to deal with an emerging health issue. My doctors are leaning towards a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. The reality of my life is that even with ergonomic improvements, I still cannot do a lot of my essential job functions. Nevertheless, my manager has indicated that they support me coming back to work just to keep my knowledge and skills sharp, without any of my usual responsibilities.

    I just…. don’t know what to say to my co-workers who are picking up my slack about this, especially since fibromyalgia has such heavy stigma. Leaving out complicated things like ADA, accomodations, etc. out of the picture, what do I even say to colleagues when they ask me how I’m doing (always not great!) and what’s going on with my not-really-work? Does anyone have any experience with this kind of transition to severe disability after being a high performer?

    1. Deborah*

      Oh, this is so hard. I’m sorry! I have chronic illnesses as well, but the first started in childhood so I haven’t had to transition in front of anyone.

      One thing that I find very helpful is Facebook groups that are for my specific illnesses. You would be certain to find others there who’ve experienced this and possibly get some suggestions.

      One thing I can suggest from experience is to believe yourself and be willing to grant yourself permission to be and do whatever you are actually able to do. Work on avoiding feeling guilty and try to avoid pushing past your limits because with this type of illness it will usually just rebound even harder in physical symptoms. It’s even possible that if you present a confident, non guilty face to your co-workers, not acting ashamed of your new limitations but just kind of matter of fact, they might accept them better! And while you don’t have to and probably shouldn’t go into a lot of detail, it sometimes helps to let people know you are hurting and still keeping moving – they tend to feel sympathy and respect. If they are nice people. And finally, try not to worry about what they actually think. You have enough on your plate. People will always be judging those of us with invisible disabilities. If we can have peace in our interactions, then whatever BS is in their heads is their own problem.

  91. Deborah*

    I have a weird disability related conundrum. While I have been working remote due to COVID, my company has moved into new headquarters. We are in the supply chain industry where getting and maintaining ISO 14001:2015 certification is important, and part of that is making sure employees can effectively answer questions about our emergency management plan during the upcoming audit. We had a video call yesterday going over the new details yesterday, including the new evacuation plans for the new building. The biggest difference between the old building and the new building is that the new one has the office upstairs, where the old one was on one floor.

    They have a process for employees who have mobility related disabilities, either short or long term, to get a red cone thing from their manager that they would put on top of their cube to alert the sweep team that they need assistance in exiting the building “quickly and safely” due to the disability. This isn’t new, but in the new building I have to decide if it applies to or would help me.

    The issue is that during a fire drill or any other emergency, we’re only to use the stairs to exit, and I have an autoimmune disease that causes pain and stiffness in the joints, which as autoimmune tends to do, varies day to day. Also my left knee just tends to wobble alarmingly going down stairs, so I avoid doing that wherever possible. I *can* use the stairs on an emergency basis, it would just be slow. I am not sure what a sweep person could possibly do to help, though.

    My boss and HR are already aware of my disability because we discussed it in relation to working from home with the pandemic (it’s a very positive environment and no worries in that score). So after the presentation I asked my boss what he thought. He actually is a member of the sweep team but he’s assigned the downstairs. He is leaving it up to me, basically – he’s happy to get a cone even if it’s just in case. Also they did say that the fire marshal told them they have sufficient sprinklers and the emergency response time is sufficiently fast for the location that if someone can’t manage the stairs that first responders can assist that person (with the sweep team being responsible to inform the first responders of the person needing assistance at the stairs).

    Am I over thinking this? It’s unlikely we’ll have an actual fire in a brand new building, but this company really likes to be prepared and it wouldn’t surprise me if they did drills from time to time. I will be going back to the office probably in a couple of months.

    2. Not A Girl Boss*

      (Former firefighter) I would opt for the “worst case” evacuation plan on paper – aka, as if you are someone in a wheelchair who cannot use the stairs. Most of the time there is a gathering place defined where first responders know to come meet people with devices to carry them down the stairs. 99% of the time, that actually amounts to a firefighter briefly verifying the elevator is safe for use, and then escorting people out through that method.

      The reason I suggest this is mostly to save you unnecessary pain from evacuating for drills. If a true emergency ever did occur, you could obviously choose to use the stairs and just notify the person taking attendance that you are out of the building. But no reason to force yourself to use stairs unless its a true emergency.
      And, on the flip side, if heaven forbid an emergency ever *does* happen on a day you truly don’t feel safe using the stairs, you’re covered.

      1. Deborah*

        Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I think I probably still just feel awkward about thinking of myself as disabled.

        1. Not A Girl Boss*

          For what it’s worth, I would be a little uncomfortable with a cone too. It feels a little… Unnecessary? To disclose something so publicly.

          One thing that is silly but I find does help, is that you are not “disabled”, you have a disability. It’s not really a defining characteristic, you just sometimes need to do things differently. We all have quirks that make us more or less capable of various things.

    3. Colette*

      I’d get the cone. You will, at a minimum, need extra time to evacuate. And in a true emergency, it might mean they bring in firefighters to carry you down the stairs, for example.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Get the cone.
      I was born with some leg problems. I have been very fortunate to remain walking all these years, a lot of folks don’t.
      That said in times of serious stress my legs get like overcooked noodles. I remember one real life nightmare of trying to get to my neighbor’s house with my pets because there was a tornado approaching. (They have a basement we don’t. But then again, we didn’t have tornados until one day we did. I was pretty stressed.) I don’t know where my knees went but they decided go to AWOL. I was sure I was going to fall face first on to the blacktop. I still dunno how I got to their house. Stress and fear bring about unforeseens. (We were all okay in the end.)
      Get the cone. If you don’t need help you will be able to tell them that you are okay and do not need help. They probably have equipment to help move people but that is not yours to have to figure out or worry about. Your only part in this is to make sure you can get the help if you need it. They’d rather know up front that you may need help than be surprised in the moment.

  92. Filosofickle*

    This week we talked about a lack of truly entry level jobs. When that topic comes up, people note they constantly see jobs that expect 20 years of experience…and while I realize there’s a little hyperbole in there, as someone with more than 20 years of experience, I wish listings actually did want that!

    In my field, most listings I see request around 3-5 or 5-8 years. The latter being called “senior” roles. I assume this is because they want candidates who have solid experience, will be able to work with little supervision, but aren’t as expensive or (gasp) old. So both less and more experienced are at a disadvantage. When I see 10+ years, it’s for executive / senior management. Not all the time, but usually. It seems like there’s a bias toward mid and mid-senior levels and everyone else is either too experienced or not experienced enough.

    It’s also fair to note that someone with 20 years experience isn’t necessarily going to perform better or be more valuable than someone with 8. In some jobs, you can have what amounts to 1 year of experience 10 times over. I just hope they won’t count extra years against a candidate! I assume they do, though, as my field can be extremely ageist. I’ve worked around it by working as a consultant, a place where more experience can be useful. But I’m always competing directly against folks with less than half my experience so it’s not a requirement. It also helped that I started a different career 10 years ago, so I started the cycle over and people assumed I’m younger than I am.

  93. ThePear8*

    Hi all. I have a couple of very different questions that both came up in a group chat I’m in with a bunch of my fellow students:

    1. Summary statements on resumes? Not sure if this has already been asked before, but a lot of people seem to think that it’s not a bad idea to put a summary statement. I guess this is different from a goals or objectives statement – it’s like a summary, like an elevator pitch briefly summarizing who you are. Apparently the idea is that for hiring managers who can only spare a few seconds to glance over each resume, the summary statement is helpful for them in knowing what you’re all about without needing to take time reading it deeply. Personally, I think it’s unnecessary. A friend of mine who was asking me for feedback while redoing his resume recently insisted on putting one on because he felt he didn’t have enough experience to fill up the space – which is fine, I don’t feel like it would necessarily count against you to have one, but I feel like he could’ve still cut it and used the space to go into even more detail about his skills and accomplishments at each work experience. Thoughts on summary statements? Are they useful, and if so what makes a good summary statement?

    2. This is a more serious question, could just use a gut-check here – an alumnus in this student chat recently made a post having to do with his employer’s handling of COVID, and while I entirely agree with the contents of his post, there was one sentence where he referred to the virus as “wuhan flu”. This rubbed me the wrong way since I know this term has had connotations with a lot of the anti-Asian hate resulting from the virus outbreak originating in China, and I myself am half-Asian and deeply upset about a lot of the recent hate crimes. I have a good rapport with this person and have worked with him in the past and he even TA’d one of my classes. I know he can be very vocal about his political opinions but he often promotes inclusivity and is very encouraging and supportive of all of us diverse students, so I think it’s really more ignorance than deliberate harm and he probably never intended to hurt anyone. I don’t like confrontation but I felt so uneasy and decided to learn what I used from this site to speak up – I sent him a private message letting him know what while I appreciate the thoughts he shared in his post, explained that the term “wuhan flu” was problematic, and assured him that I was sure he didn’t intend to offend anyone and just felt it best to let him know. He hasn’t responded which isn’t a surprise since I’m sure his day job keeps him busy and it’s not unusual for him to take several days or weeks to respond to private messages. I hope I did the right thing, but I still can’t help feeling a little anxious and uneasy about the whole thing and don’t know how much of my uneasiness is also colored by the general fear and sadness I feel around current events regarding Asian discrimination and I could just use some honest opinions about how I handled this.

    1. Lyudie*

      On number 1, FWIW a career coach told me a few years ago that summary sections on resumes are helpful for all the reasons you mentioned…I had been using an objective statement, and those are not done anymore. Hiring managers aren’t that interested in what you are looking for, they want to know if you are what THEY are looking for, and a summary/overview can do that.

      On number 2 I totally think you did the right thing. He might be quiet because he’s embarrassed by it, especially if he goes out of his way to be inclusive normally. Slip-ups happen and it sounds like you handled it well, letting him know about it privately.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        I think the issue with summary statements is the execution. The vast, vast majority I see don’t highlight anything but the applicant’s lack of creativity. “Graduating senior from UXY with an interest in llama petting” honestly doesn’t save me any time compared to glancing at a resume. And sometimes it distracts from the thing you really want me looking at with my 5 seconds – like your most recent internship experience.

        I have used objective or summary sentences when I had something particular to say that didn’t fit well into my resume – for example, when I decided to step away from my management track and apply for technical contributor jobs, I highlighted some experience that was much further down chronologically on my resume. (Obviously explaining in more depth in my cover letter, which is truly a better place for it even then).
        But when I want to highlight a specific area of research interest or such, I just indent it under the applicable heading. Aka, bachelors of grooming, UXY, research area: llamas.

    2. Kathenus*

      On #2, you 100% did the right thing. Thank you for doing so. Everyone needs to speak up in these instances either to help educate (for those who may say things without realizing/considering the implications) or to call out (those who do it intentionally or uncaringly). I get the overthinking when you don’t get a response. My brother made a comment a few months ago about a post I sent him on anti-racism and referred to the African-American person in it as ‘well-spoken’. So I let him know that I was sure he didn’t intend that disrespectfully but that the term had a negative, loaded history and why. He never responded, so I went into the same mental rabbit-hole, but at the end of the day I know I did the right thing to speak up, and I am confident that I did it in a non-accusatory way. From there I can’t overly worry about how someone takes it. You did good.

      2. ThePear8*

        Thank you, that’s really reassuring to read. Rationally, I know it’s fine if he never responds, and like my original post said it’s not unusual for him to take very long amounts of time (like several weeks) to respond to private messages, and I don’t need to worry about it. But I’m an emotional human being who still falls into that mental rabbit-hole, so thank you for sharing :)

    3. TPS reporter*

      I say good for you for saying something. Even if he doesn’t respond you got him to think about it. It’s one of those statements that some people might use deliberately as anti Asian and others might not realize how it’s coming across. The only thing I can think is that maybe he was trying to use it in a satirical way like the Borat movie?? Either way I agree with reminding people that statements they think are funny or lighthearted can be hurtful given current events and historical bias.

      1. ThePear8*

        Thank you. Based on the context I am very certain it was not done intentionally or satirically, and it was used without realizing how it was coming across. I don’t want to give too many details in order to preserve anonymity but it sounded to me like he was just trying to vary up his wording when referring to the virus but unintentionally landed on a term that ended up having harmful connotations (and he only used the term once, in referring to “mandatory wuhan flue procedures”, so it wasn’t like he was going out of his way to repeat it or anything). No one else said anything in the group chat but what motivated me to message him was I worried that since it was almost certainly unintentional, there could be a good chance he might accidentally hurt/offend someone in the future, especially as we have a lot of Asian students in the chat.

  94. DogMom*

    Looking for input and possible encouragement.

    Current job is very high stress first responder based. I was burning out before the pandemic hit and things have only gotten worse. My mental and physical health are struggling to the point where I’ve had to call out more than I like. I got a doctors note to switch from night shift to day shift a little over a year ago. Since then I’ve been able to build my leave back up a little but still having on going issues requiring me to be out. Since the shift my managers have pulled me aside to comment on it seem everything I do. They have indicated no issues with my work product or how well I do my job; all of the critiques are related to my personality or person.

    I want to quit badly but don’t have a lot of savings. Looking for suggestions to help get through while I continue to look for another job that would be better all around.

    1. WellRed*

      This is an imperfect answer but my initial thought is to push back on these critiques. “Dog Mom, you need to smile more.” You: “assboss, is there something in my job performance you’re concerned with?” Assboss: “we just think you don’t smile enough” you: “well, it’s true I could try and smile more, but all the people whose lives I’ve saved, haven’t mentioned any concerns with my smile ability.”

    2. anon24*

      Hey DogMom, I hear you. I’m EMS and this pandemic has been brutal. Do you have any co-workers you trust and can talk to? Management will always be management, out of touch, demanding, asking for everything from us, but our co-workers are where the support is at. If you can find a hobby outside of work focus on that. My hobbies have been life saving this past year. Hang in there!

      1. DogMom*

        Yea, I’ve been written up for relieving someone too early and for not responding to a message the way my bosses want. From talking to other people…. I’m not the only one under the microscope. It’s brutal and my off time is just recovering from work. Sending best wishes in public safety solidarity.

        1. anon24*

          Relieving someone too early??? Waa-aat??? How is that a thing? We don’t get paid if we’re early unless we get an early call but I’ve walked in half an hour early, got a call as I walked in the door, taken it for the person I was relieving and didn’t hear a word about the half hour of OT.

          I hate that management is putting people under the microscope right now instead of backing off. It’s a goddamn pandemic and they should be grateful that you’re still showing up for work. Unfortunately I don’t know that there’s anything you can do to push back, unless a bunch of you can group together.

          I definitely know the feeling of needing all your time off to recover. I’ve come back after having almost a week off and I’m still exhausted. When I have bad days I just keep reminding myself that this will all get better eventually. Good luck! I’ll be thinking about you!

  95. Overeducated*

    I’m 3 weeks into a new job and frankly regretting it sometimes! I am feeling a bit lonely – my old job was pretty meeting-heavy, had a “camera on” culture that made me feel more like I was in the same room with others, I really clicked with my old boss, and a coworker and I had frequent “back-channel” chats. This one is more solitary work so far, my supervisor is leaving and a new one is being hired (eeeek!), and the culture seems to be more cameras-off and “leave me alone unless you need me.”

    Now, I do think my old job maybe had a little too much team discussion of things that didn’t really need to be consensus-based, and people (including me) were sometimes frustrated by the number and length of meetings, but I’m experiencing a bit of whiplash from the abrupt change and missing feeling like part of a team. This can get better even during remote work, right? Or is it a cultural difference between workplaces and I’m always going to feel isolated?

    I guess another question is, has anyone had second thoughts about changing jobs but made the new one into something they’ve really enjoyed? I need some inspiration!

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      I am horrible at job changes. The first month is the stress of wanting people to like me. Months 2-3 are “OMG what have I DONE” and then, all at once, things click and I start to hit my groove. My husband always has to remind me that I always feel this way, and its never permanent.
      Its a lot to get used to a new environment, new job, new coworkers. Its a really uncomfortable thing. Its especially hard in a pandemic, where you might have really come to over-rely on your coworkers for social interaction at your last job. So, it might just take some time to adjust. But also, probably, this new job *does* have different socialization norms that aren’t really your preference.

      I changed jobs during the pandemic. My new job, I am the only person working from home. So I get virtually no social interaction from coworkers, because all of the ‘hallway socializing’ is happening before they join the virtual meeting I’m on. It was a little tough at first, but I ended up reaching out to old coworkers to try to convert them into lasting friendships, and being more proactive about virtual happy hours with old coworkers and friends. It turns out, I much prefer getting my socialization in that way, anyway. No more listening to Bob drone on and on about politics, because when socialization happens outside of work I can just choose not to invite Bob.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thank you! I actually did send a message to one old coworker to ask if he wanted to have a quick virtual coffee break next week (we tend to work through lunch). I think I should reach out to a couple of new coworkers who I know a little from working together across our large org previously, and try to set up one social chat to look forward to each week or two. You’re right that something is lost when it’s all business, all the time.

    2. Lovecraft Beauty*

      I went through this in late 2019. It was really rough. And then the pandemic started. You might want to look at Threeve’s thread, higher up.

      I’ve managed to carve out a space in my current role to do stuff I enjoy, and my former employer has handled covid super badly so I am very glad I’m not there any more, but I’m still looking forward to hitting my 401k vesting date so I can more actively look for positions that are better suited to me (I moved for this job and I am very homesick). It’s gotten better and looks great on my résumé and I’m glad I took the job, but I don’t know if it’s inspiring!

  96. The Dude Abides*

    Follow up on the interview that took five months to get to:

    I got the promotion!

    The pay bump isn’t as much as I wanted for a two title jump (10%), but it’s for sure a giant step up in terms of doing things relevant to my experience and education.

    One co-worker joked that I wasn’t allowed to leave and offered to cover the pay raise, but everyone seems happy that I got the job. Now comes the bajillion messes to clean up before I go doooooowntown.

  97. Thursdaysgeek*

    I’ve been working remotely with an intern at another location, and he’s been very helpful. So I arranged for a package of rubber ducks to be sent to the office. They arrived yesterday. He works a mix of remote and in-office, and because he’s an intern, he works different hours. I’m getting impatient – has he gotten them yet?

    And, since so many people are working remotely, I don’t know if packages are delivered or a person needs to go pick up mail. I don’t know how they did that in non-Covid times, for that matter.

    Patience. I guess I will know when he gets it. I just don’t know if I need to tell him to track it down or not.

  98. Building a team*

    I am taking over a 5 person team where one person was recently fired. The termination was justified, but the team was not privy to the employee’s performance issues so to them, this is a blindside.

    I’ve met with them and indicated that even though I can’t address specifics, they can be assured that proper measures were taken and that if there were any concerns about their job performance, that I would be having those conversations with them way way way ahead of any action being taken.

    Is there anything else I can say? Morale is low.

    1. NotaCommsPerson*

      My company tends to handle layoffs or resignations pretty badly, we recently had a team member leave for a better opportunity, and while the situation is different, here’s where I would have liked my manager to tell us:
      -We know this came out of left field, so if anyone has any questions about it, feel free to ask them. I probably won’t be able to get into the details, but I will try my best to address them and give you peace of mind.
      -We understand change is hard and the team might take a while to adjust, so if I can do anything to help with that, feel free to suggest it, and I’ll take it into consideration.
      -Here’s how we’re going to organize work without this person
      I n general, just acknowledge they are surprised and thrown by this and try to earn their trust through your work

      Good luck!

    2. iBarley*

      This is more playing a medium to long term response, but I think in these circumstances, “show, not tell” does a lot. eg. I believe you, but I’ve also had a manager spout the whole “proper measures were taken” to the team and I knew 100% from being inside the situation they were not.

      Do your spiel and check-ins that reiterate those points, but think about how you can show the team how you assess and address performance without it being a reference to the firing. Talk about your expectations and what success looks like to you in 1:1’s, and say up front how you handle issues while also reiterating and giving examples of how you SUPPORT and coach people to succeed (eg. it’s not a “3 warnings and goodbye”).

      You’ll need to be very cautious in how you approach this so it doesn’t read as a warning that their jobs are at risk too, but I think it would do a lot to build trust in you (and really, your goal isn’t to convince them the firing was fair – it’s to ensure they have the psychological safety to carry out their jobs well, right?)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      With most performance issues everyone is usually aware of what is wrong and the firing is not a surprise.
      It even has me wondering what this person did that no one else knew about. This lead me to think is it possible that there is more to the story? Could it be that they know something management does not know?

      If you think this is even a remote possibility you could ask them privately, “If there was one thing you wanted me to know or be aware of, what would that one thing be?” Then explain that they can say what they need to say but you may or may not be able to respond to their statement. This does not mean you are ignoring what they said. Then just listen.

  99. Gingerbread*

    I am a product manager for a large company and have been in my role for over two years. I am not planning on staying long term. My plan is to stay for 1-2 years because I want to start a family with my husband.

    I am recently had my quarterly performance review with my manager. The performance review went very well, which was not surprising because I have been rated in our second highest tier in both of my performance reviews. My manager asked if I would be open to taking on new responsibilities, and I said I would be interested. Instead of focusing on multiple initiatives, I would spend most of my time focusing on one. The project would have high visibility and give me the ability to interact with leadership consistently.

    The change in my role/responsibilities sounds interesting but I have some concerns. First, I cannot be told what the project is yet. There is no timeline of when this change will occur. Could be two weeks from now or months from now. My manager is unsure if a raise/promotion will come in the beginning of the project or if I will need to “prove my worth”. The only thing I do know is I would remain under my current manager, which is highly preferable to the other manager. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion the projects I am currently working on will not go quietly into the night.

    Since starting at this company, I have already taken on a significant additional responsibility. For example, I used to manage one specialty llama food and now I manage all the company’s llama food. This is over 10x the llama food in revenue! I hoped to get a 5-6% raise at my review due to my high-performance rating but raises were put on hold due to the pandemic. Our company has been doing well despite the pandemic. My boss has been trying for months to increase my compensation with no luck. My grandboss has told my boss that in order to give me a raise I need to add even more value to the company.

    How can I advocate for myself without hurting my great reputation during the middle of a pandemic? If I was not about to start a family I would actively be job hunting based on their previous behaviors.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I would say you need to not factor in your family planning to your career decisions at this point in time; wait until you are actually 3-4 months pregnant. There is no way to know how long it will take to get to there, so you need to not accept substandard employment conditions with that in mind. I would highly recommend not taking on any ADDITIONAL responsibilities without an increase in financial compensation AND (not or) a new title. Your maternity leave benefits will be somewhat affected by salary so don’t sell your baby short! (motivation)

      1. Gingerbread*

        Thank you but most companies require a 12 month tenure before you can take maternity leave. So I can’t wait move positions while pregnant or 1 month after my leave.

        1. Reba*

          I don’t think Lunch was saying to move companies.

          I can’t tell from your post what you want to advocate for yourself *for* — do you want this job or not? Do want this job, but only for a real increase in pay to match the responsibility?

          It sounds like your boss is on your side while your grandboss wants to squeeze as much work out of you as possible. I would keep talking to your boss and get really clear with them about what moving to the new project would mean for you with regard to your current responsibilities. You have a sneaking suspicion, name it out loud! Make sure they know what would be sustainable for you to take on.

          1. Gingerbread*

            Thanks Reba! Yes, I would like the job if I can receive proper pay to match the responsibilities. With everything so vague I feel like can’t even research similar roles. I am not sure what to say when this comes up again, like a script in response to my boss. We have my quarterly review very soon it’s schedule for longer than normal.

            I’m afraid when it comes up I’ll be caught off guard, not ask the questions or convey what I should, and be blindsided by a quick role change again.

            I have already take on a lot more work with no pay increase and there’s no way I am doing that again! My work likes to move people into new roles with little notice and “figure out the rest later”. I agree, I need to ask my boss questions to get clear about the role, timeline, and pay.

            1. Reba*

              Maybe you can make a list of questions and be ready to say, “here is what I need to know to decide if I am interested” or “i understand you don’t know all the details yet, here are the things I’m concerned about based on X and Y about my current role or what I’ve seen with other role changes”

              So you keep the conversation going and don’t get boxed in to a quick decision, hopefully!

          2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

            Yes, Reba is right, I am not saying to move companies. I am saying to not factor in “I might get pregnant soon” to today’s choices about your current work situation. Also, at least in the private sector, I assume length of maternity leave is something you can negotiate in advance if you start the job pregnant. (Actually you could in the public sector too, just would be unpaid.)

  100. PolarBearClaw*

    I need to write a cover letter for a new job! I’m hoping for some advice on mentioning why I want this new job and want to leave my old one.

    My big reasons for wanting to leave:

    1. I have 3 years of experience in this field and over 10 years of experience as a scientist. I am paid 17/hour and there are no substantial raises (about 2%) per year, no bonuses, and no promotions possible in my current position. New position would be a promotion in title AND pay. This is the only way I can think of to improve my career at this point.

    2. My current lab is more molecular biology/cancer biology focused. New lab would be more neurology focused, which is what I’m more interested in and what I wrote my Masters thesis on.

    3. I am really struggling financially and NEED to make more money. I can barely afford to take care of myself. If I started at Target or Costco here as a sales associate I would make the same hourly pay.

    4. My current boss has screaming matches with other employees. I want to leave because this is really toxic.

    5. I was point-blank told that my career and contributions are the least important of anyone in my lab. I feel absolutely awful about this every day and would like to start over somewhere I might be more appreciated.

    What should I mention in a cover letter? An interview? I don’t know how to phrase this professionally.

    1. Overeducated*

      Talk about growth, how the job you’re applying for would make use of your 3-10 years of experience as well as graduate level research in neurology, and what you’re excited about in the new job. Leave out everything about how your current job is not good, communicate why the new job would be great and you’d be great at it independent of the current environment.

      FYI my spouse made a leap between different types of lab work similar, but not exactly the same, as yours. He basically found a grant funded research position through networking and informational interviews. (His current boss is someone he got connected to through a personal contact in another field who has a wider network in our geographic area, not his own direct professional network, BTW.) If this specific opportunity doesn’t work out, I hope that gives you some hope.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Polite and vague. You’re looking for a new challenge, new career growth opportunities, to grow your skill set, want to shift your career path, or you’re more interested in neurology (which all sound true!).

      I’d leave out anything about the toxic employer, demoralizing culture, and financial struggles, although I would definitely ask lots of questions about pay, raise structure, and company culture.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I should say that I meant vague if you are asked about this in the interview.
        In the cover letter, I would be specific about why you’re interested in the new position but not say anything about why you’re leaving the old one.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t think cover letters are meant to be a platform for talking about why you want to leave your job. They are about why you are interested in the new opportunity and why you are a good fit. That’s it.

      1. PollyQ*

        Exactly this. Don’t waste space talking about your old job. Focus on what makes you a great candidate for the new one.

        Once you’re in an interview, you probably will be asked why you’re leaving, so have a short, fairly bland, standard answer, e.g., “I’m looking to focus on neurology and take on more challenging work than what’s available at my current position.” Nothing about the screaming boss or even about being underpaid, though.

    5. Emilitron*

      Good luck! Your focus in a cover letter should really be #2, with a bit of #1 and #5. Items 3&4 are important to you but completely don’t belong in a cover letter – you’re persuading them that they need you, not that you need them. #5 is relevant but not the way you phrased it, I’d tie this lack of appreciation in with #2, that you could be contributing more if you were in the field more relevant to your expertise, and you’re in the market for a growth opportunity. Similarly the story in #1 is that you have a lot to offer, not that you need them.

      The only context in which the cover letter is about what you want is where you’re trying to give them a sense of who you are professionally. So when you talk about what you want, you focus on what do you love about neurology that you really miss and will eb excited to get back to. You’ll cover specific experience in your resume, but big picture what is one positive thing that you learned about yourself at your job that you didn’t get from grad school, this was your first opportunity to practice your lessons in a professional environment and your favorite part of that transition was ___. Then maybe say something about what you want next and tie it in to that professional storyline, you’ve done some of (a particular task, collaboration style, deadline style, etc) and you’d really like to (next step in doing more of that, related to something you know is part of their job description). That last is tricky, you have to be sure the thing you’re saying you want to grow into is something they’re looking for.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      The person getting your resume is going to pick it up and say, “Why would I consider hiring this person?”
      Aim your writing to answer that question. Anything that does not directly answer that question can be tossed to one side.

  101. NotaCommsPerson*

    How do I ask my boss for help?
    One of our clients has a new contract, that includes activities that no one in my team know how to do (we’re focused on the business side of consulting, and they’re now requiring comms), as I’ve managed the account for a year and I have marginal previous experience in comms I’ve been tasked to tackle these, but this is way outside anything I’ve ever done in this field, and furthermore, I took this job because I didn’t want to do the type of work that’s now required. The thing is, my company has an entire department devoted to comms consulting, and I’ve asked twice about having someone who actually knows what she’s doing help me with this, only to have my boss respond “we’re working on it”… I have the feeling that they’re not working on it… and the requests are becoming more sophisticated, and it’s getting to me, literally losing sleep over it. I want to ask once more for help in a way that might be more effective, so is there any wording anyone might suggest for this?

    I know they’ll probably say no or stall and I might need to start job hunting soon, but I feel like I should give them a third strike

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Boss, I have asked twice already and now I am worried to the point of losing sleep. I need help with the Smith account because they need x, y and z which I do not do but our other department does do. I am afraid we will lose the account [lose some of their business/whatever you think to be true] if we don’t do something like yesterday.

      Notice the use of the word “we”. You are now a “we”.

    2. Can Can Cannot*

      Play dumb. If they ask you you to do some comms work, claim not to have any knowledge/experience. Make it so that the only way the work will get done is to have the other department help. If you make it easy, or even possible, to get by without involving the other department you will likely be on your own.

  102. A. Ham*

    I am not so much looking for advice as maybe some commiseration if you’ve “been there”.
    This is not my first time in a management role, but it is BY FAR the most people I have ever directly supervised, including having an assistant manager for the first time.
    I figured going into this that perhaps mo’ people would mean mo’ problems but I never dreamed that in less than three months on the job I would have already dealt with SO MANY issues. everything from HR complaints (by my staff about people not in our department), to less serious complaints within the team, to attendance issues, to job performance issues, to almost having to fire someone. And of course I know this is the kind of thing that is just part of the job for a manager, and I totally accept that, I just wasn’t expecting it all to happen ALL AT ONCE. It has also been a struggle to effectively manage some of these situations, as some information is coming to me second hand… because I’m brand f-ing new.

    *also want to note that it may sound like I inherited a somewhat dysfunctional team but I did not, Most (not all) of the issues I have had to deal with involve the same two people. the rest of the staff is lovely and highly efficient. (And for those of you that happened to see my post last week, no, the person having illness related attendance issues is NOT one of those two people. He is somehow the least of my worries these days.)

    1. iBarley*

      Does your workplace have a trustworthy HR, or learning and development team where you could ask for coaching or support? If not, maybe another person at or above your level to be a coach or mentor?

      It’s not that I think this is a lack of skill on your part that’s contributing, but any one of these might be challenging for someone new in your role – having them all at once is a lot and your organization should be helping you be successful!

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      OMG are you me? I started a new job as a people manager in 11/19, and the personnel dramz have been nonstop. (Including one disgruntled employee, the most senior in the group, who had applied for the position, then subsequently took 2 weeks leave in December, then 7 weeks unscheduled “medical” leave between January-March; subseuqntly quitting in May, praise be!) I currently have 2 employees flirting with PIPs, one who told me he is disgruntled (because he doesn’t get to set his own assignments… um, that’s what a manager does), and one who has COVID. I guess in a group of 14 this is average?? Long way of saying, personnel dramz are the worst and I feel you! Keep your boss in the loop for the inevitable day when one of them files a grievance against you, and continue to ask/beg for training in people management. If your org is like min, there is zero training in day to day management so… guess that’s why we’re both on this site!

    3. TPS reporter*

      ooh ooh me too ! **raises hand** In my first few years as a manager managing managers, the entire team turned over (including managers), I had to fire four people, put another few on PIPs and really thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I feel a lot better now for multiple reasons. One is that I finally got to hire the managers below me who actually manage and are reasonable, thoughtful people. Another is I’m much better now at spotting who is going to be a problem in interviews. And finally I’m much faster to act on performance issues and know that documentation and very clear plans for those people is key. In general I also think because I’ve seen it all that I’m just more immune. It does get better over time (at least I hope for you it does). You’ve just got to keep learning from mistakes, surrounding yourself with the best people you can and try to get the best structure in place for your team- show your boss if you need more resources, limit what is coming to your team if you don’t have enough.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      All it takes is 1 or 2 rotten apples to make a dysfunctional team.

      Changing bosses is a time of upheaval. I’d expect a lot of chaos. Set boundaries and be consistent. I thought supervising that every day was very busy because there’s two components- the work and the people. I took over a group and OMG, you needed a chain saw to cut the tension. They did not speak, they did not smile or joke, omg. Since I know I am not a totally rotten person, I deduced that someone had been feeding them lies. I turned out to be correct. They had been informed that I would make their lives h3ll. The only real way out of that was time. As the weeks went by and no one died or went missing, the tension eased up. It was a few months before I started seeing differences. At the one year mark they were an entirely different group of people as they had relaxed and they would joke, etc. They were the best group of workers, they really were.

  103. iBarley*

    Fingers crossed but I have a “final” interview Monday and am feeling very good about my prospects (previous convos went extremely well, had an internal referral, several members of the interview panel are familiar with a public project I did, etc.). Obviously not a given, but there’s a chance I’ll be resigning from my horrible toxic workplace next week (the prospective role has a key role in an April project launch, so it’s clear that this hiring process is a time sensitive priority).

    Despite all this, I feel awful: one of my direct reports told me this morning they’re taking a 3+ week medical leave. We have a great relationship, they’re very talented, and have been open with me about their struggles with the toxic environment. I’ve been professional but validated their experiences, and been clear that these are not normal circumstances and it’s impacting our ability to do our work.

    If I get offered this role and resign in the next week, my two weeks notice would be up before my direct report returns. How should I handle this? I’ve read the AAM posts above survivor’s guilt leaving a toxic workplace, but this feels different? I know I can’t feel responsible for people left behind, but the timing just SUCKS and I feel awful that this person may come back to find out I’m gone (and my boss is part of the toxicity, so it’s not like they’re really “in good hands”).

    I’ll leave my personal contact info of course, but it just feels so unpleasant and like I’m practically ghosting on this person. Reaching out during their leave is completely off the table; they were clear about needing a full disconnect break from work, which I fully support, so it would be directly interfering with their break (not to mention legally shady of course). Has anyone quit a job and left while an employee or close colleague was gone, or has any advice on how I could handle this in a way that minimizes the impact to my report?

    1. Jane*

      I feel like if you (understandably) insist upon a full and complete break from work, this is unfortunately a chance you take–that something major happens during that period and you come back to a completely different workplace with no warning.

      If you do put in your two weeks’ notice, I’d recommend doing your due diligence during that time to leave things in the best place possible for her–records up to date and clearly marked/organized, a list of status updates, notes on where to find particular files, etc. And if you’ve had a nice working relationship, perhaps leave a card on her desk expressing those sentiments as well as regret for the circumstances, leaving contact info, and best wishes for her health.

      Good luck; I hope the prospective job works out for you!

      1. iBarley*

        Thank you! Part of the challenge is the toxicity revolves around a lot of very very unclear and constantly shifting expectations and priorities from the Higher Ups, so it’s hard to feel like I’m leaving them with “organized” hand off. But even status and where to find what files would probably be helpful.

    2. MissGirl*

      It does suck but that’s not your fault. Just like their medical leave at this particular time sucks but isn’t their fault. Things just suck sometimes.

  104. Learning how to study again*

    Hi
    It’s been a long time since I’ve had to do any exam level studying. My supervisor has suggested I take the Certified Associate in Project Management (CAPM). So I have started reading the PMBOK guide and I purchased the associated online course and am working my way through it all. And I’m struggling and find myself having to read paragraphs 3 times to work my way through the word salad. I don’t remember studying being this difficult when I did my associate’s degree. I’m assuming it will get easier once I get back into the routine but in the meantime does anyone have any book recommendations for improving memory and study skills.
    Thanks

  105. Anna*

    Does anyone have advise for giving feedback to someone you’re managing who’s not a direct report? This happened to me a few years ago and I’ve often wondered about how I could have handled it better.

    I was in grad school in a hard science field and managing an intern, Draco. Draco reported to the lab manager, Minerva, but I was in charge of his day to day work. Draco was very smart and had great grades but he required a lot of hand holding and struggled with learning through observation and following directions. He also had a habit of questioning everything about the procedures he was asked to do, and if he didn’t get an explanation he liked, he would try and reinvent the procedure in a way that “made sense to him”.

    When I first realized that I couldn’t rely on Draco to work independently, I talked to Minerva about letting Draco go. Minerva told me that I had to give Draco a try for at least six more months and that supervising someone like Draco would be good for me. I was busy finishing my dissertation and totally uninterested in managing another intern (I already had two other interns, Harry and Hermione, who were great to work with), so I went over Minerva’s head to Albus, our supervisor. Minerva was more senior than I was, but we both reported to Albus. Albus initially said that I could let Draco go, but when Minerva found out that I had gone over her head she appealed to Albus and he changed his mind. They both held a meeting with me and told me that I had to keep mentoring Draco for at least six more months.

    I ended up giving Draco as little work as possible to limit what I had to redo. After the six months were up, Minerva refused to let Draco go and found another grad student to work with him who had similar issues with Draco’s working style. The lab ended up letting Draco go after a year.

    In hindsight, those six months I worked with Draco were totally useless for both of us, and I wish I had found a way to make it more of a learning experience for him and/or saved myself some annoyance and time. I’m not sure how I could have addressed some of his larger issues, like listening carefully, following directions, and learning by observation, without exerting more authority and time than I had to work with. I’m also not sure if/how I could have advocated for myself and my time more effectively with Minerva and Albus. Does anyone have any advice/ similar experiences they learned from?

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like you focused on getting him to do specific tasks, but did you try addressing the bigger issue? For example, “we have procedures you need to follow, you can’t do things a different way”, “I need to be confident that you can follow these procedures without constant supervision. I’m seeing issues X, Y, and Z. What steps can you take to improve?”

      Did you make him accountable for his mistakes – i.e. “this isn’t done properly, can you walk me through what process you followed? “please re-do this and follow the procedure. If you run into issues with one of the steps, stop and ask for help”

      1. Anna*

        I didn’t address the bigger issue, and in hindsight I really should have. I just wasn’t sure if it was the kind of thing I, as the person managing him day to day but with no real authority over his employment, should have done. Instead I took my concerns to his manager, Minerva, and asked her to address them with him. I don’t know if she did – she never told me that she had talked to him.

        1. Colette*

          I think she probably thought you would handle it, and you thought she would. In my experience, when you’re supervising an intern you usually manage the feedback. So I think the takeaway is that, rather than asking her to handle it, you could have clarified with her how to handle it (and who was going to do it).

  106. Secret Liberal*

    I’m politically very, very liberal. I live and work in a deep red state. I’m perfectly alright with not talking about politics at work, and respecting others’ political viewpoint. My coworkers and boss frequently talk politics, but I just sit and listen.

    Yesterday, my boss and I had a working lunch. On the way back to the office (she drove), when she had me trapped in her car, she forced me in to a very political argument because something I said at lunch wasn’t *quite* neutral enough. I’m not going to name the issue, or even really ask for advice. I just wanted to vent about my experience and get some outside validation that her behavior was inappropriate and I’m not crazy.

    It’s a small company, and she is the owner/CEO. No HR or other checks on her behavior.

    1. Fiona*

      That’s so aggravating. I’d understand if she felt you crossed a “no politics at work” rule – but by your own account, she frequently talks politics at work. I would feel so frustrated if I were trapped in a no-way-out situation like a car. I work in a very liberal company in an extremely liberal city, so I have no idea how you manage on the day to day. Sending strength.

  107. buzzbuzzbeepbeep*

    How do you not be cynical in job interviews when your current company is a hot mess? I am having a hard time being optimistic about what I am told in a job interview. My current company is toxic and terrible and I have been here long enough that I am afraid I can’t separate good things from bad when trying to evaluate a new place to work. I have had several interviews with different companies and I am so skeptical that I have a hard time deciding if I should try harder to get the job or decline the offers instead. I can no longer tell what is a red flag because I am currently drowning in a sea of red! Right now, I want to default to the salary and location being the only deciding factor because I can’t begin to identify what good workplace culture looks like anymore. But I don’t want to swap one bad company for another, even if pay and location are good because changing jobs wouldn’t be worth it then.

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      As bad as it sounds at your current job, I would leave as soon as you get an offer making as much or little as you can live on. I was once in a job similar to yours. I was lucky that my next job was great but almost anything would have been an improvement. The new company matched my salary and was in the same location and that is all that mattered.

  108. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Performance review commiseration thread!

    My department loooooves to go through a whole big annual performance review process. It takes forever, the numbers are hard to pull because the performance review lines up with neither the calendar year nor our fiscal year, and there’s an unofficial (or maybe actual) quota on how many employees can get “exceeds expectations” so unless you’re really struggling, everyone knows they’re getting “meets expectations”. There’s pressure for supervisors to find negatives and focus on “areas to improve” so even if you’re a solid performer you walk away from the conversation feeling like you need to be doing better/more. And the cherry on top is that this organization does not do raises or promotions and you’d have to murder someone to get fired, so it all winds up feeling like a meaningless exercise.

    Now, I love my boss as a person and we were friendly before she became my boss in a reorg last year. She’s incredibly supportive and wonderful, and spent a lot of time trying to get me to tell her what I’d like to see her/the org to do differently. But what am I supposed to say when the answer is that I’m getting burnt out in my role and there’s no room for growth, either upward or laterally? She commended me on my “bravery” in asking questions and making observations in meetings, which I take to mean I’m so far outside the norm of how people interact here that I’m never going to be considered for a promotion even in the off chance a higher level role were to become available (which it won’t). And I’m not talking about challenging leadership or anything, I mean literally asking clarifying questions or bringing up gentle suggestions.

    Sorry for the vent, I guess I had more feelings than I thought. So tell me, how do your performance appraisals suck?

    1. D3*

      I think you must work for my org. And I HATE it.
      I am a very engaged employee. I work my butt off. I step up. I cover for others when they’re out. My reviews and ratings from clients are the top in the department.
      And yet….there’s no way I can ever get more than a satisfactory rating because of the rules. they always have to “leave room in the numbers for improvement” and I have to set a goal, every. single. year. that is “One thing I know I could be doing better but choose not to.” The assumption in that question is offensive.
      Like you, my boss was a friend first, then she hired on as a peer, now she’s my boss. Thankfully I know she appreciates me and sees what I do. It’s just administration/corporate that refuses to let employees be ranked as good at what they do.
      It’s hella discouraging.
      And I know they’ve lost great people over it. I contemplate leaving after reviews every year. Someday they might just lose me after this.
      If you work in a role that has any control over this, just STOP it with the caps. Let good employees be reviewed and recognized for what they do. A good employee should not come out of an annual review feeling crapped on.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        That is the most offensive question I’ve ever heard. “Something you should be doing better BUT CHOOSE NOT TO”?!?!?!?!? Are you kidding me??? Way to demotivate your best people.

      2. It happens*

        I believe the only appropriate answer to that question is “looking for a new job.”

  109. bartdoard*

    How much crappy terrible stuff can you bring up at work before it seems like you’re just creating excuses? My boss won’t stop asking me why I seem so “distracted,” or commenting on how tired/low-energy I seem. She does not get the hint when I try and grey-rock her and refuse to provide answers.

    In the past six months, I’ve had one close family member pass away, my whole immediate family got COVID, my partner’s parents had to close their business due to health issues (and she had to help them with shutting down operations, which required a lot of logistic arrangements), my partner lost two close family members (one to illness and one in a violent accident), my mother had to have emergency surgery, another family member’s house burned down (they lived but countless family heirlooms were lost), and someone close to my family relapsed and had to go back to rehab for substance abuse struggles. That was October-March 1st. This week started with a close friend’s husband dying suddenly, and concluded with my partner beloved aunt passing away.

    My boss is always commenting on how busy we are, how everyone else seems so happy to be here, how she’s in her 60s and still wakes up cheerful every day. It doesn’t matter how much I try and put on a happy face in the office–I still get hit with at least one “You seem distracted!” per day, because…I do. When my close family member died suddenly, her response was, “Well, by the time I was your age, both my parents were dead, and I had to go straight back to work,” which is certainly sad but not really helpful. I am paid well, and I get three weeks’ PTO a year, but I’ve already exhausted one week of it and am “earning” the rest with each pay period. I can tell my boss thinks I’m full of BS, but things are very hard right now! I feel fine, I’m coping well, I am not going to have a breakdown, but at the same time, I can’t do anything about it! I’m in therapy and medicated, and I’m completing my work every week, but I know she can tell I’m a little spacey.

    1. bartdoard*

      I’ve found a gentle “You know, I mentioned to you that I’m really struggling with personal things right now, but I’m happy to be here–it’s great to focus on my work.” Her response to this is to key the praise of my other, “happier” coworkers WAY up, or to talk about extremely traumatic things that have happened in her own life. I try to tune it out, but…ugh.

    2. WellRed*

      Maybe be less gentle? Your boss sounds exhausting, frankly. What would happen if the next time she says you seem distracted, you say, “I am distracted. I’m planning a funeral and helping my relative find a new place to live.” Keep it short and simple, but don’t sugarcoat it. Why should you? And happy faces at the office? Nah, just do what you can, you need to be pleasant, etc, but you don’t owe anyone a happy face. Eff that!

    3. Hi there*

      I don’t think there are any words that will make Boss suddenly understand your situation and stop with the comments. Is your goal for Boss to stop? Faking perkiness when boss is around might help avoid the tired comments. Or do you want to get out of the conversation? Maybe you could say that it has been a lot but you are excited about the return of warmer weather and have big plans for summer—deflecting the attention off you.

    4. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Your boss sounds self-centered. Normally burying both of one’s parents by an early (or earlier?) age would make one more sympathetic, not less, to the sh-tstorm happening in your life. I would not engage in any of her observations about you vs. others. Her: “You seem distracted.” You: “Yes, did you need something?” Her: [Inappropriate comment.] You: “Ok! I’ve got to get back to this TPS report.”

  110. voluptuousfire*

    GRRRRR! I had yet another role crap out because of something ultimately inane! Turns out they may only want to consider west coast candidates instead of east coast ones due to someone in an adjacent role being east coast based. They may want someone west coast adjacent. Jaysus, the role is remote! It can be done anywhere and the person could easily do a swing shift if required! I bowed out of the application process mid-call because it didn’t make sense to proceed since there was a chance I’d be rejected for something I couldn’t control unless I hopped on a plane in 5 mins and moved out west. Grrr! I was on the fence about the role itself but that cemented it.

    I also got rejected for a promising role because someone who apparently was ahead of me in the process was more senior who fit their immediate needs. I cackled out loud because I’ve done their role for 5.5 years (and even longer if you consider a previous role from the mid ’00s). Usually, I get rejected for being too senior for such roles! I’m so, so curious to see who they hired so I’ll keep an eye on the company’s LinkedIn. Companies are spoilt for choice currently and I’m glad that ultimately I’m presenting well and such but I think I’m losing out to candidates that are currently unemployed. I have to laugh at it because that old adage it’s easier to find a new job when you already have one isn’t working in my favor. LOL

    Just full of salt and vinegar this afternoon. At least it’s Friday!

  111. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I had my review recently and found out that, although I was rated highly and awarded a 4% “merit raise” (the most I have ever been awarded in 5 years with this company), since I recently moved to a new location (I’m a permanent remote worker) I am already over the salary cap for my job classification in my new region. I’m really frustrated, as my cost of living in my new city is actually significantly higher than my old city (my rent, for example, is $800 more per month, and my apartment is smaller and not fancier or anything). As a result, I’m not actually getting a raise, but instead just getting a 4% bonus for this year. This means if I get my “normal” 2-3% “raise”/bonus next year, I’ll actually be taking a pay cut. I’ve already raised the issue with HR, but they are unwilling to reconsider the classification of my new city as “low” cost of living.

    Normally, this would be a sign that I need to move up or move on ASAP. However, there are several issues that make it a hard time to switch jobs at the moment. We are still in an pandemic which is limiting available jobs, especially at a higher level. My partner is graduating from her MFA program in May without any job lined up yet. And I’m planning to try to get pregnant starting in May. I’m the primary breadwinner, and I’m in my prime earning years so I really don’t want to hinder my salary potential right now, and my costs will only be increasing with child care on the horizon. At the same time, I don’t want to risk not being eligible for FMLA at a new job, and I’m not willing to put off getting pregnant any longer (I’m 38 and have already delayed years for my career and my partner’s).

    What do you all say? Should I be looking for a new role? Wait until after maternity leave to find something? I should also note that I know getting pregnant may take some time, but I will be working with IVF embryos I froze 3 years ago, so hopefully a shorter timeline than if I were starting from scratch. I was already getting itchy to move on last year, but dragged my feet on looking for a new role when the pandemic hit and I was so grateful for a remote position.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I’m not clear on if your move was voluntary – that is, a personal decision not the company’s? Sounds like it was, but it triggered a “reassignment” to a branch of your company’s, in that metro region with a different pay scale? Sorry, it’s a little confusing. I guess you are in the position of looking for a new position in the new metro (?) but shouldn’t leave without something great lined up, since your partner is unemployed. As I mentioned in a different comment earlier, I would suggest taking the whole “maybe baby” thing out of it since it is an uncertain timeline (although certainly best wishes in your family journey!).

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        The move was entirely voluntary and for personal reasons, to be closer to family during the pandemic/once I have a kid. I wasn’t aware that my salary would be affected in any way by the move. I was already a permanent remote employee, according to my company they don’t care where I live. HR didn’t mention anything about it when I asked what the impacts of moving states would be.

        1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          I suppose you can provide your boss with documentation that HR said there was no impact to your move and ask to be made whole. But, regardless, I can see how this would damage your trust in the company and I will stand by advice to job hunt but not give notice until you have your next position lined up.

    2. Reba*

      Do you have the support of your boss in this, or did you raise the concern to HR on your own, so to speak? I ask because it’s very easy to picture HR saying to a lowly peon, “them’s the rules” but I wonder if your boss (and possibly their boss) were willing to take this issue of the pay mismatch–not so much based on the accuracy or non- of the pay scales, but framed as a priority for retention–they might get farther?

      That sounds demoralizing, I’m sorry.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        My boss asked me to raise it with HR and cc her, which I did. She was not enthusiastic about having to tell me that I would not be getting any more raises, and was hopeful that HR would reconsider, but also doesn’t seem willing to push the issue with senior leadership.

  112. Tentative Offer*

    Any federal employees out there with advice on how/when to notify their current employer of federal job offer? I’ve accepted a tentative offer and am in the middle of the background process. The first page says they HAVE to contact my current employer to verify employment. I don’t want my supervisor to find out from the HR but I also don’t want to put in notice at this point. My current thought is to give him a head’s up that I interviewed for a job and they are doing a background check even though I don’t have an offer. Any insight is appreciated :)

    1. Just a PM*

      You should definitely say something. You don’t need to be specific. The script I used was “I applied for a government job and it involves a background check. Investigators are going to contact you/HR to verify my employment. I wanted to give you a head’s up.” You don’t have to mention the tentative offer. Most people know that the hiring process for the government takes time and that we do background checks at every step of the way in an application process.

      Don’t put your notice in until you actually have a confirmed start date with your new federal supervisor. There are so many things that can happen between tentative offer, paperwork, confirmed start date, and actual first day. (Especially if you’re coming on around the fiscal year end/start – if the govt shuts down due to lapsed funding and your agency doesn’t have any back-up funding, then you can’t start and your hiring process is put on hold — I don’t see this being a problem but something to keep an eye on if your offer drags out into the summer.)

      Also one last thing about the background investigation — depending on your agency and your position, you might actually have two background investigations. The first is a preliminary that gives you a tentative clearance or status. This is the one that your initial hiring is contingent on. The second background investigation happens after you’ve on-boarded and have started work, and goes a little bit deeper into your background to determine your official security clearance level.

  113. D3*

    Grad school applications….I just decided this week I want to do it. Started looking at 2 programs for a fall start, and the deadline is April 1 for both of them!
    But….
    1. My undergrad school (a large state university) says they have no record of my degree, or even enrollment. Now I graduate back before the turn of the century so they already told me it couldn’t be sent electronically and it would take 10-14 days for paper to be delivered. Already cutting it close and now I’m super stressed. Working with the University (dug through MY boxes and was able to send them pictures of my degree certificate and student ID card)
    I do have (and was able to send electronically to both programs I’m applying for) a transcript for some graduate work I did 2 years ago. How likely is it to be an issue if my undergrad transcript doesn’t get there in time?
    2. One of the programs still requires the GRE. Which I haven’t taken. Or prepped for. Looks like you can take it proctored from home with 24 hour notice. Is it even worth it to try taking it with no prep? Standardized tests have always been a breeze for me (took the ACT with no prep back in the 90s and got a 34) – but is it even worth it if the score turnaround is also unknown?
    If at all possible, I’d really rather start this fall and not wait a year and a half to even start!
    But is it even possible?
    (and yes, I know, I should have started earlier. Did a lot of research in December, got cold feet, and just this week decided I wasn’t going to let fear stop me. In my Dec research, both schools said they didn’t require the GRE. And yet there it is on the application for the one school…)

    1. Lyudie*

      Can you take some of the classes as a non-degree student? I did that for a few years before I applied (and got into) my master’s program, I was just careful to make sure everything I took was part of the programs I was looking at. Be sure that this is allowed though, I don’t know if every university allows you to use non-degree classes as part of a graduate program. If you can do that, though, that will let you get started asap.

      Also note that graduate programs have a time limit, and for my university at least, that clock started ticking the first semester I took a class, even though I was not in the program and didn’t even know which (or if) program I wanted to apply to. For me the time limit is six years.

      My program did not require the GRE so I do not have first-hand knowledge of it, but I helped my husband study for his and…I would not try it with only a couple weeks to prep. Others may have a different opinion if they’ve taken it themselves but from what I saw of my husband’s studying, there’s a lot of (complex) ground to cover. It also costs ~$200 to take the test, so cost might be something to consider too.

      Good luck! Sorry your undergrad uni is being a pain :(

    2. PollyQ*

      2. I’d double-check with the school to see whether it’s truly required. It may be on the form as an option, so that people who’ve taken it can share their score, but it’s not an issue for people who haven’t. If they do say it’s required, then go ahead & take the test now. Worst case, you do crappy and you have to take it next year.

      1. D3*

        It is, I asked because in the informational session I viewed in Dec they specifically said it was not. They say the University is making all programs require it now. They only require a GRE in the 40th percentile or above, which is one reason I’m not too concerned about getting a “good” score.

      2. Reba*

        Many programs are moving away from the GRE (thankfully)! So I think it’s worth asking if it could be waived.

        That said, the GRE is not much different from other standardized tests. The math tested is actually lower level than the high school age tests (although if you’re like me, high school math is a pretty fuzzy memory!). But the vocab is serious, and writing two essays in an hour based on terrible, generic prompts is actually not that easy, lol. I think they have free online practice tests, so you could take a couple hours and see how you do.

    3. MissCoco*

      Can you take a practice GRE?
      That could at least give you an idea of it’s worth bothering.
      I will say I took mine with very little prep – review geometry formulas is my advice, but otherwise it was NBD. It’s been a long time since I took the GRE, but I think the score turnaround is fairly quick. Like unofficial results same day, and official ones in a few business days.

      As to the transcript thing, I’d contact the admission office and let them know that your UG institution is working on the transcript, and let them know it might be close to the deadline – a lot of times they want some form of “application submitted” box checked by the deadline, but are willing to wait for the last few items to come in.

  114. Calculated Risk*

    I’m looking for advice on how to prepare for a potentially challenging new manager. I’m starting a new job on Monday that I’m mostly really excited about. Through the lengthy interview process, I (virtually) met a lot of the team, and we got along so well that it was genuinely fun to talk to them. The sole exception was when I spoke to the hiring manager, soon to be my manager. She was perfectly polite, but nothing I said seemed to be quite what she was looking for, and she directly told me a concern she had about how I might handle one aspect of the job. I was honestly surprised when I was offered the job later that day. For various reasons, I decided that the opportunity was worth the calculated risk of potentially having a cool-to-tense dynamic with my boss – especially since my old job said they’ll take me back if I change my mind. It’s quite possible I read too much into it and everything will be fine — but how would you approach this unknown? Just work extra hard to impress her at the start?

    1. PollyQ*

      First, I wouldn’t assume that the way she acted in the interview would be the way she’d act as a manager. She may have deliberately challenged you to see how you’d respond to that. And again, she may just have a “cooler” personality than the rest of the team, but I wouldn’t start with the assumption that there’d be any tension between the two of you. Basically my advice is to do your best as you would in any new job, but keep an open mind and not try to solve problems that may not be there.

    2. OtterB*

      Double down on making sure you’re communicating well with her at the beginning. What are her priorities for your position? How does she prefer to communicate? You could even refer back to the interview and her concern about how you would handle one aspect of the job, and get any direction she can offer on how to be successful in that part of the role.

  115. Chocolate Teapot*

    My company has decided to restructure, and this means some people are going to be laid off or re-deployed. My department was not going to be affected, but it looks like one of the people I work with is either going or be re-deployed to another department. This is going to be tricky as we are very busy at the moment as it is!

    I am concerned that anyone re-deployed, has no experience in the work my department does, and no enthusiasm for it, consequently leaving the company. Has anyone got any experience of this situation?

  116. Not productive because I'm not OK*

    Bummed about the meeting I just had with my boss, in which I got fussed at for missing a deadline… because I was unwell enough to land in the ER.

    1. Empress Matilda*

      Oh no. I’m so sorry. Hope you get better soon, and I hope your boss develops a sense of empathy!

  117. bmj*

    i just need to put this out into the world. I’m so burned out (i know we all are). I have a 4 year old and a 9 month old, a job on it’s own right now, thanks to virtual learning. we were a position down when the pandemic started, and my company instituted a hiring freeze. since then 2 additional people left right when i went on maternity leave last year. so we were 3 people down, plus i was gone for nearly 4 months, so the dept. was in triage mode. when i came back i was put in to manage the execution of a very high level project; by the time it was to launch in Feb I was working 12-16 hour weekdays (half of that coming after i put my kids to bed) and putting in a good 10-16 hours every weekend. it had an end date in sight, and i was ready for the ‘slow time’. and then it failed due to circumstances beyond my control wit the vendor. This was devastating. I’ve never had anything i worked on fail this spectacularly. we pivoted and put in even more time to salvage what we could. then we pivoted again on the 2nd part to salvage that. it’s more than a month after the original project was supposed to end and i’m still doing all kinds of work on it, despite the fact that we should have cut our losses and looked to next year. on top of that, our dept head had a medical emergency. they’ve been out for 3 weeks with no end in sight. my other co-worker and I have had to take the lead in their absence. another person just turned in notice this week (due to work load) so now we’re down 5 people out of 15, and all of this is happening while i’ve taken an 8% pay cut due to COVIDs impact on the company. everyone took this cut, but most people got time off in exchange. i had to work on the high profile gig so i did not get to participate in those comp days. I already felt like my efforts deserved a promotion (to the title that my previous boss had, since that position is frozen). now i feel like all the responsibilities i’ve taken on should earn me a promotion above that. but given the freeze, chances are low fort hat to happen any time soon. i have no capacity to apply for new jobs right now. i’m just so tired. all the time. i’m tired, i’m stressed, and there is no end in sight.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Sounds truly awful. Go to skip level boss and calmly ask for more people resources on an interim basis, until you can hire permanent replacements for your 5. Ask for the comp days you couldn’t take to be added to your accruals as floating holidays (or whatever), AND ask for a raise since your responsibilities have increased. Then if they do none of these very important things, I would give notice but offer to stay as a part-time contractor for a couple months. This position just doesn’t seem worth the heck they’re putting you through.

      1. bmj*

        Co-worker and I put together a job description/request for a skilled temp and presented it this afternoon to the skip level boss. They are backing us up and will present to HR. i think the response to that will tell me a lot about the potential for the promotion. I don’t care about the comp days accrual so much… i just want to take a dang day off. We’ve told boss’s boss that we need them to prioritize and let us put some projects on hold, but they are such a ‘big picture’ person that i don’t think they get it. I think i’m just going to schedule it and people will have to deal with us saying no to some deadlines.

        1. WellRed*

          Take a day off. no offense, but presumably your project is neither curing cancer nor brokering world peace.

        2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          You’re down 5 people and you have to argue for a skilled temp that you might not even get???

        3. Can Can Cannot*

          Let things fall on the floor. Let things not get done. Don’t put in excessive hours. Escalate to management. Make this their problem, not yours.

  118. Schmitt*

    I am starting a new job in May fully remotely and I need a hug, tbh. I had five months’ notice period, have a week and a half left, and I am so done. I am burnt out, intimidated by my replacement, and worried that I’ve bitten off more than I can chew with the new job. I’m going to be technical lead for ten people and in the five months since the interview I have convinced myself that they will all be better than I am. Ugh.

    2. Thursdaysgeek*

      Internet hug from a stranger. New jobs are always stressful and scary, but in my experience, the people who truly can’t do the jobs are the ones with no doubts about themselves. I hope to read your update in the Friday Good News in a few months – congrats on the new job!

    3. Frau Blucher*

      Hang in there, Schmitt! You’re good enough, you’re smart enough, and goshdarnit people like you! But seriously – I have been in that headspace all week. I feel you.

      You’ve earned that new position. And even if those ten people are better than you at some things, you are still the right person to lead the entire team. Your technical skills are only part of what you bring to the table. Your leadership and organizational skills are big factors, too.

      Today I took a walk in the sunshine and had a call with industry peers who made me remember what I’m good at. It cleared away a lot of my gray clouds. I’m hoping your clouds will clear, too.

  119. Jane*

    Not sure if this’ll be buried, but I have a phone screen next week for a state parks job. I’ll be interviewing with the other three FT staffers there.

    This is only the initial round–they said it would only take around 20 minutes–but I wanted to see if anyone had any experience or input in this field or pointers on what to expect. It’s been 5+ years since my last job interview of any sort and I’m reviewing common interview questions, my own experience, and reading more in depth on the history of the specific site and area to prepare.

    This is also my first interview with a government entity, so if given the opportunity, if there’s anything I should ask about on that front? I’ve been reading up on benefits, and am curious about the amount of autonomy each individual park/site has in relation to the state authority, but if there’s anything else that might be worthwhile to inquire about, I’m all ears.

    1. Anon today*

      Park jobs/ experiences vary a lot by the specific job. Are you interviewing for administrative, management, maintenance, resources, interpretation, visitor services, etc?
      Is it a permanent, term, or seasonal position? Each have their own set of questions.

      1. Jane*

        Permanent FT, mostly interpretation. Despite being a “state park,” it’s more of a historic site, so collections management, research/exhibition development, education/outreach, some admin. A little bit of everything

        I’m coming from the museum field, particularly small institutions, so I have a lot of experience in all of these areas and and tend to prefer the experience of a smaller site.

        1. Anon today*

          If you are doing collections management, I would see if you can find out about the current state of the park’s collections and resources. Did the hypothetical lifer in charge before now leave it things organized, compliant, and ready to be picked up? Unfortunately not always the case. A historical site collection guy I know retired last fall after decades. His office is its own archeological dig and the park is still uncovering gaps in his record keeping and data management. Whoever eventually agrees to replace him has an enormous job of righting the ship.

          1. Jane*

            Good call. I spent the early months of the pandemic doing this with my current employer’s database, and it was only established in 2014. Small blessings, I was able to work fairly independently, and could finally plow through things without getting sidetracked. Thanks for the input!

  120. Elle Woods*

    Thanks to those who provided advice–and laughs (coke! whiskey! fornication!)–on my question last week (being contacted for a job that required me to sign a community lifestyle agreement).

    An update: the hiring manager (“Sue”) reached out to me again twice this past week. I haven’t read her email or returned her phone call as ghosting her is the best option at this point. I did run into the family friend who had mentioned my name to Sue. He was aware she had contacted me about the position and he apologized for it. He said he’d only mentioned my name in passing and if he’d known what she was going to do, he wouldn’t have mentioned my name at all. (He said he knew there was no way I’d be able to agree to the community lifestyle agreement. FWIW, it’d be a non-starter for him too.) We had a good laugh about the whole situation.

  121. LadyHouseOfLove*

    I am miserable. At the age of 30, I finally moved out my parents’ house. I have one semester left to get my MLS and I left a toxic workplace in my city in Texas and left for a small town in Oklahoma as a librarian. The workplace is healthier, my colleagues are all great, but I don’t like living in a small town. I do have a sister that lives two hours away and I stay over her house on weekends, but I miss Texas so bad. I grew up in a predominantly Hispanic community (I’m half Mexican) and I am struggling to adapt to a majority white town.

    My depression has gotten so bad that it’s hard for me to even eat one meal a day this past week. I feel guilty because I feel I should be happy for getting a better-paid job in a nice community, especially during the pandemic, but I’m not. I am planning on giving this job a year and then commence job hunting and I feel guilty too because everyone is excited to have me onboard and I feel like I am lying to them all.

    1. Colette*

      How long has it been? Moving to a place where you don’t know anyone is really, really hard – it took me 6 months to even begin to feel OK, and that wasn’t during a pandemic.

      Could you sister come to visit you instead? Spending your weekends in your new home might help you adjust. Meal prep in advance might also help. But moving is hard. Be kind to yourself.

      1. LadyHouseOfLove*

        I arrived here around late February. Yeah, I had always thrived better in cities and I took this job because I was so desperate to get out of my previous toxic one. I know I can learn and develop a lot here and I do like most of my colleagues but the idea of staying here more than two years really makes me so anxious. I am going to try some of your suggestions and see if I can survive at least the first year or so.

        1. Colette*

          I’d definitely give it a year – but you don’t have to stay for the rest of your life. Give it some time to get to a point where you know where to buy groceries or pick up a prescription or do the other regular stuff that makes up our day-to-day lives. Once regular life stops taking so much effort and you start making friendly acquaintances, if not friends, things will get easier. But you still don’t have to stay if it’s really unbearable.

    2. Alexis Rose*

      That sounds extremely challenging. It’s not surprising that you are struggling, honestly. I think most people would be struggling with so many transitions at once between jobs, being away from your family, and being surrounded by a totally different culture. Also, doing this during a pandemic which makes it 10x harder to feel comfortable in a new place.

      Giving a new job a year is fair–you don’t need to feel guilty about that. I would just caution you to try put that thought aside while you are at work at possible. I only say that because I’ve seen people who know they are leaving a job have it negatively impact how conscientious they are about the work, and ultimately the kinds of references they’re able to ask for.

      If you can afford therapy, it sounds like it might help you work through your struggles in the short term. If not, I was going through a really hard time at work last year and I used a therapy app called WoeBot. It’s basically a chat bot that has been developed by therapists and it really helped me manage the stress and anxiety I was feeling.

      1. LadyHouseOfLove*

        Thank you. You are right, since this is my first professional job as a librarian, I do aim to do a good job here, so that at least I leave on good terms.

        Once my insurance goes through, I will definitely check out therapy options. WoeBot sounds like a good idea!

    3. Natalie*

      I wonder if finding some Mexican American community nearer to you could help, even if it requires a bit of a drive. Or if there are any college towns, they sometimes have a tiny bit more diversity.

      One thing that probably doesn’t surprise you being from Texas, sometimes you have to drive a long way to find stuff. But even if you could only go to three towns over once or twice a month, could help.

  122. Hoping For Good Things*

    I had a second interview today! Yay!
    Of course now I’m second guessing myself and feel like I might not have done as well as I initially thought. But hopefully it was enough to stay in contention.

    The boss seems to have good management skills (I know someone that used to work there under this boss) and that is a HUGE frustration for me currently. In fact, it’s been from reading AAM that has made me realize it might be worse than I was thinking. So here’s hoping I get a chance at having a good manager.

      1. Hoping For Good Things*

        Thanks! Got word that one of my references got called already so hoping that’s a good sign!

  123. Frau Blucher*

    I can’t be promoted at my current company because I’m a department of one.

    I’m a Marketing Coordinator with 7 years of experience, 5 of them with Current Company. Right now, I’m performing all the duties of a traditional Marketing Manager. At my most recent annual review, I requested a title bump. I presented supporting documentation and explained that Marketing Manager would more accurately reflect my experience and responsibilities to both my co-workers and my industry peers.

    I was told that Current Company only gives people the title Manager if they are actually managing people. I have two problems with that response:
    1. It will take Current Company years to grow enough to support a 2-person marketing department.
    2. There are multiple internal exceptions to this “rule” but I was told those are “industry titles” so they’re acceptable.

    My supervisor asked me to come up with an alternative title. My first instinct is to dig in my heels. An industry peer suggested I could compromise with Senior Marketing Coordinator. Thoughts?

    FWIW, I really like the company otherwise. And I live in a geographic region where taking a better job would most likely mean a longer commute, by at least 40-60 minutes each way.

    1. PollyQ*

      Tacking “Senior” onto the front of a title is very common in IT, and I benefited from that a couple times. Other options might be “Lead Marketing Coordinator” or “Marketing Lead.” Or you could follow Elon Musk and call yourself “Marketqueen”. *eyeroll* (do not actually do this)

      1. The Dude Abides*

        Seconding the lead as an addendum.

        When I left a job four years ago, I was the Lead Llama Groomer, despite being the only Llama Groomer. Despite the churn in the role (3-4 people have held the title since I left), the title stuck.

    3. Grace Less*

      I suggest checking job openings/LinkedIn people at the biggest firms in your industry to see what titles they use. My firm has the same rule about manager and so we have 82 made-up titles that don’t align with the rest of our industry. It makes collaborating…interesting. I am a rule follower. Give me clearly defined roles so I can understand the game!

  124. 'Epekema*

    I work for a company that requires an higher degree (more than Bachelors) for scientist and up positions (I know it’s pretty common). Right now the company is looking to define different roles in the company (ie level I, level II, etc.). I work in a part of industry which is less defined by higher degrees (I have never met many people who do my line of work and have higher degrees, they have a lot of years of experience, but generally no higher degree, maybe Masters). I am at odds with the fact that they put a ceiling to anyone with “just” a Bachelors. And I’ve been told I would help shape these levels for the group I am in. I have absolutely no experience with this and am not sure where to begin. I have only been managing people for maybe 5 years. Any advice other than look at job postings (for framing and wording) on the internet?

    1. Anonnington*

      If your area is less defined by degrees, I would apply some structure to the qualifications that do define things.

      I’m guessing that would be skills and experience. What kind of experience translates into what? You’ll need to define that. Number of years doing X = what?

      In addition, how about skills assessments? I honestly wish companies would do more of this because it would reward the people who actually know their stuff and cut back on all the BSing and promotions that are just based on bias or social incentives. Can you test people’s skills or knowledge and use that as a qualification?

      So you would have something like, Level II = 5+ years at X plus a score of 90% or higher on the basic skills assessment. Could that work?

      1. LQ*

        Skills and types of work is where I’d go too – years are good but it’s easy to then just promote because x years or not promote because x-2.
        (Note that each of the subsequent numbers should also include the work from the lower levels too. A 4 MUST be about to do tasks as directed!)
        1: Do tasks as directed.
        2: Document tasks and report to leads on work.
        3: Document projects, prepare reports for leadership.
        4: Plan projects, review project work, subject matter expertise on broad area.

  125. Blindsided Team Player*

    There are a few staff members that I work with/collaborate with who like to overstep boundaries. They attempt to justify their behavior with the we’re a team slogan. If they were really about being a team, they would have some conversation or ask before doing things but they don’t. I don’t have an issue or problem with collaborating and teaming up when needed. But I do take issue with people crossing boundaries or acting as if there aren’t any.

    I am 3 years new to my role (Executive Assistant) and it was a promotion. Any advice or suggestions on dealing with this behavior?

    1. Jane*

      Do you mean they do tasks that you’re responsible for? In the moment, I think I’d say, “Thanks, Cersei. I’m actually responsible for maintaining Robert’s schedule, so next time, if you want to send me any notes by noon on Thursdays, I’ll be sure to incorporate it into my report.” If she gives you “we’re a team” pushback, say something along the lines of, “Definitely! But it’s actually part of my job description to manage his schedule, and I’ve found from experience it’s easier and smoother if I collate all the information in advance.”

      Obviously, you can’t prevent them from doing work that isn’t part of their job duties. But if you can train them to submit their work to you, then you can control the flow of information for the tasks you’re responsible for.

    2. Malika*

      Are they throwing work on your table that is out of your job description? This is where you do need to enforce your boundaries. The expectation with assistants is that they always have to say yes to everything, but that way burnout lies. If you really can’t get them off your chest, can your manager help by reminding people that what they just said you should do is outside your remit?

  126. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

    I recently had two informational interviews/chats with someone at an agency I’m interested in working at. Based on our initial conversation he suggested that I might be a good fit for a mid-level position their actively recruiting for. I’m in an immersive bootcamp program for the type of work this role would require (interviewer knows this) and have several years of professional experience under my belt—only some of it relevant to the role—so this would be a slight pivot for me.

    I checked their job listings recently and it looks like they’re also looking for interns for this same position. Since I’m relatively inexperienced and will be fresh out of a bootcamp in 1 month’s time, I’m wondering if the internship might be the more appropriate route. Alternatively, they have another full-time opening that’s in the field I was working in prior to starting the bootcamp, but is still within the same field. I for the life of me can’t decide which role to apply to and was thinking about following up with this person for their insight.

    Is that inappropriate or am I completely overthinking this?

    2. Jane*

      I’d say if your contact thinks you’re well-suited for the mid-level role, and it’s appealing to you, run with that. Something permanent, particularly with someone advocating for you on the inside, is always preferential to an internship. If it doesn’t work out, then you can inquire about the internship or the role in the area you’ve already worked in.

      1. Hi there*

        I agree with exploring the full time role and then looking at the internship as a backup or if they mention it. Good luck!

    3. natter*

      Take the mid-level role in the new field, if you can get it!

      I have learned the hard way that if you start at a lower level than is typical for your age/overall experience – even for an “acceptable” reason like making a career pivot or being a SAHP – you’re a lot less likely to be taken seriously for promotion and professional development opportunities.

  127. Informal Poll*

    I have a multi-purpose email address. I use it for volunteer work, activism, religion, some school, and, occasionally something work-related. Plus business and medical stuff (communicating with doctors, having my mail forwarded, etc). I would describe it as semi-professional. Not a work email account, but for stuff that has a professional tone to it.

    I want to hear your thoughts on whether or not this profile picture is appropriate:

    A picture of my dog wearing a jersey for the local sports team and a bandana, sitting on a couch, next to a book case.

    He’s very cute. He gets tons of compliments.

    However, it also occurs to me that a picture of a dog might come across as unprofessional, or might inspire jokes about me being a b—, or could just be a distraction. It could make it seem like I don’t take my volunteer work seriously or something.

    What do you think? Is a dog pic ok or should I stick to flowers and art?

    1. PollyQ*

      I think it would be fine, and anyone who calls you a b—- would’ve called you that anyway, regardless. Plus, I don’t think profile pictures are that noticeable anyway. On many platforms, they’re just teeny little squares.

    2. bunniferous*

      I think it would be fine BUT the fact you are questioning it makes me think maybe you really aren’t. So maybe this is a call only you can make?

      1. Informal Poll*

        Yeah, it could be. But it’s also that I don’t use email that much, so I don’t know what the norms are.

        Sometimes, I think the dog is endearing. Other times, I feel weird about being the only dog in a conversation with people and art (other people using a photo of themself or some art as their profile pic).

        And thank you all for the feedback!

  128. Dumb Girl, PhD*

    Anybody have experience asking a coworker to knock it off with an obnoxious behavior that didn’t directly impact their work?

    I have a coworker who’s a chronic mansplainer, but it seems to be due to general inability to read the room rather than sexism. I’ve responded directly to this in the moment by saying explanation was unnecessary, but that hasn’t decreased the frequency of unwanted explanations. I’d like to point out to him that it’s generally considered rude to explain core functions of people’s jobs to them, and doubly so when you yourself are not an expert, but I’m not sure (1) how to broach the subject or (2) if that will even work. Would be interested in hearing if anyone else has gotten a coworker to stop with an annoying habit.

    1. Anonnington*

      “Stating the obvious tends to come across as insulting to a person’s intelligence because of the kinds of assumptions it rests on.”

      Not delivered when they’re splaining at you, but maybe out of context or when they’re directing it at someone else.

      I’ve had some luck with that.

      In my experience, though, mansplaining is rarely isolated or completely unintentional. There usually is a real attitude of superiority behind it, plus a lot of insecurity. I would avoid that person to the extent that you can.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’ll offer this (I’ve only tried it once, on my husband, but it did work): When he starts in, and at the point where you can tell that he’s heading into mansplaining territory, you can stop him (w/a hand wave, upraised index finger, or a time-out gesture) with a very concerned expression on your face, and say “Is there some reason why you think I don’t know this?” Please come back and let us know what you tried, and what worked for you. Best of luck.

  129. KoiFeeder*

    Hilariously relevant to one of the recommended posts, I made a bunch of Safety Bead Lizards (green and glued to safety pins) for this St. Patrick’s Day and left them at the college. Perhaps I saved an admin? ;p

  130. Job Offer Etiquette*

    Hi,
    How do most of you handle job offer phone calls that rings during the middle of your workday?

    I am in a workplace where my cubicle is a little far from the quiet phone room. A lot of times I don’t want to answer phone calls while I am working because I don’t want nearby coworkers to hear my answering my phone.

    What I have done a lot of times is that I just let my phone ring and have the potential employer leave me a message. Then I will listen to the message as soon as I can, and call them back when I have access to the quiet phone room.

    I am a little worried that what I am doing might be a bit inconvenient to the potential employer or maybe also a little rude–especially to callers that have tried to reach me more than once.

    Is there a more better way I can go about answering job offer calls that happened during my working hours?

    1. PollyQ*

      It sounds like you’re calling back within a few hours, yes? If so, I think what you’re doing is fine. If they want to hire you, they’re not going to put off because you didn’t instantly pick up the phone.

  131. Kat*

    I’m having cold feet about a highly anticipated job offer and would appreciate some perspective on whether it’s just normal anxiety about a big change and relocation, or whether I should pay the feeling more attention and rethink my decision despite having accepted a verbal offer.

    I’ve been in my current position in Country A for about 4 years and I’m awaiting the formal offer for a government job in my home country, Country B. Pros: It’s a lateral move salary and benefits-wise, but it is closer to my field of expertise/interest and will potentially open doors for other government roles in the future, at the same level and above. My current job is okay, but I have been bored and frustrated in the role for awhile and I’ve reached the limit of my upward mobility, both role-wise and salary-wise in my current company. Because I’m not fluent in the local language, finding another job with similar salary and benefits in this market would be very challenging. And I’ll live closer to family, which was my primary motivation initially, especially since I haven’t seen them in more than a year due to COVID.

    Cons: Because of Country A’s worker-centric labor laws, I will lose at least half of my current level of PTO in Country B. In the new position I will start at exactly half of my current PTO with no ability to accrue additional days for more than 5 years. My understanding is that there is limited ability to negotiate starting salary and no ability to negotiate additional PTO (though I will certainly try). Travel is very important to me, and the very generous PTO in my current position was very important to me pre-COVID, both for visiting family and other travel. But living abroad has been challenging during the pandemic, and having not been able to travel and not knowing when it will be safe to do so again, maybe I’m giving this too much weight. There are a few other significant personal life factors, like the fact that my partner has a good stable job here and will likely be unemployed for awhile when we move, cost of living will be higher in the new city and the housing market is currently terrible that, on top of the PTO situation, are giving me pause.

    Any perspective would be appreciated.

    1. HighFinance*

      I think it is a sensible move but you have to evaluate the value of what you’ll lose through the move and see whether it is worth it. I’m a numbers person so I’ll convert all these things into numbers (e.g. one PTO day is worth $x, increased rent is worth $y, partner’s job situation $z). But I know not everything can be expressed in tangible terms.

      Are you excited about the job, or you’re going through this just because it makes sense?

      1. Kat*

        I haven’t done the tangible calculation, and I like that idea to know in concrete terms what it will mean in both short and long term. I’ve calculated it out in pieces but not in full. It’ll definitely be a loss for awhile but more potential for gain in the long term than if we stay. Do you have any suggestions on how to factor the time frame in?

        To your second question, yes and no. I was very excited about the new job when I first applied, but as I’ve gotten more anxious about it, I’ve been less excited. It’s closer to my field and parts of it are the aspects of my current role that I like the most (although I will lose one other big pieces of what I like now which is daily interaction with international clients). This role is also more independent (more like a consultant) and less supervisory, and some of the worst aspects for me in my current position have to do with managing, which I’ve learned I’m not great at, and specifically the team I’m managing. But I’ve also learned that my other main frustration with my current job (specifically complex org structure and bureaucracy) is going to be the same or worse in the new role.

    2. Can Can Cannot*

      Would you have the ability to “buy up” more vacation time in Country B? If so, ask for more more money, and then use it buy up more vacation.

      1. Kat*

        I hadn’t thought of that specifically and it’s a good suggestion for me to ask around about before I get the written offer to explore what my options for negotiating might be. Thanks!

  132. Greg*

    I had 2 video interviews a month ago. Then got an email saying they were moving on with another canadate.
    I just saw the same job reposted.
    Would you contact the HR recruiter again? Or was the email just a blow off?
    If I was somewhat in consideration, wouldn’t they have reached back out to me?

    thanks for any thoughts

  133. KuklaRed*

    I am writing because I am really concerned about my future daughter in law. She works as a manager in a large beauty products store with a salon. She’s had this job for about 4 months and she is doing really well in her position. However, the store keeps getting robbed. A lot. Several times a week they are hit by crews who come in with several very large men carrying big tote bags (the last ones brought Ikea bags) and they hit the perfume section hard – they sweep everything into the bags and then they are gone back into their cars and on the highway. Most of the time, there is no physical contact, but this past Wednesday, my dil was thrown to the ground by one of the crew and her boss was also thrown down by another man in the crew. They were both bruised but no lasting injuries. However, they were – as you would expect – both very shaken and upset by this.

    The store has lost roughly $100,000 in stolen merchandise (mostly the high end perfumes, but sometimes other expensive stuff) in just the few months that she’s been there. The company management refuses to hire a security guard or install any kind of loss prevention system. I am terrified for her, and for the other employees. What if these thieves start escalating things? Bring weapons? Get more physical? She loves her job and her staff and she is really good at it. But this is terrifying and so stressful for her and her team.

    Has anyone dealt with something like this? Any suggestions from anyone about what she might do or try to get the company management to do? Thanks.

      1. KuklaRed*

        Are you insinuating that it is an inside job? No, it is not. These crews of thieves have been hitting stores in the same chain all over the tri-state area and beyond. As an update, my dil informed me that the police have arrested the crew that robbed the store on Friday. The other crew who hit the place on Wednesday, and who are the ones who got physically violent, are still at large.

  134. Marzipan*

    I’m getting closer to my return from maternity leave (I’m in the UK, so will have been off for a little longer than a year by the time I return). I was trying to schedule a chat with my line manager (who I don’t know; she started while I’ve been off) ahead of returning – largely because so many things have changed due to covid that I feel like I have chuff-all idea what I’m doing – but those efforts have been unsuccessful in various ways (ways which had some wider implications for me), culminating in a scheduled online meeting that just… didn’t happen. I ended up sat on my sofa crying, which was not particularly helpful or fun.

    I do genuinely accept that things have been incredibly busy there, so I don’t for a moment think there’s any ill intent, but to be honest I’m rather over the idea of talking at all at this point and am trying to bow out gracefully (or at any rate, not rudely) and worry about it when I go back. Meanwhile my new manager clearly feels mortified and is now making great efforts to speak to me. Can’t decide whether to just be unobtainable for a while, or to give in and do it and if so, how open to be about it.

    1. Weekend Please*

      Why not just politely tell her that it’s clear that she is swamped right now and suggest that it might make more sense to wait until you are back? Or you can be firmer and say something about how busy they are and give sympathy and then say that at this point you would prefer to wait until you are back from maternity leave to talk. By offering sympathy first it makes it clear you aren’t angry while also saying you really don’t want to try again. I don’t think being unobtainable is the way to go. Since she doesn’t know you, it may come across as sulky or passive aggressive which probably isn’t the tone you want to set for your working relationship. If she tries to push for the meeting after you make it clear you don’t want to, you can be more open and say you are still on maternity leave and it has already taken more time than you anticipated when you first reached out.

  135. natter*

    This is late enough that nobody will see it, but holy fuck am I sick of loading up LinkedIn and seeing that people I hired/trained have been promoted to a manager or director role, while I’m still a fairly low-level individual contributor.

    I mean, I’m happy for them, of course! It’s just…I never figured out how to advance my own career and each year that passes, it seems less likely that I will. My performance reviews are always great, but I just don’t seem to have that “whatever” factor that suggests leadership to people. I do show an interest in management and let it be known, but there’s never a place for me to grow into, somehow. I’m never told that I don’t have what it takes for management, only that there’s no room for me. (There’s always room for outside hires, though.)

    I suspect it’s at least partially an ageism thing – I took a few years off to be a SAHM, and now I’m a 40-something doing a 20-something’s job. When there are openings, obviously the person you want to promote is the star who got herself sorted into the correct career path at 25, not the blundering 40 year old. But I think it’s also something about my general…demeanor? People think I’m “nurturing,” but what they want in managers is “aggressive,” you know? I’m seen as an office mom type, even when it’s the last thing I want to be. (The kids I gave birth to are kids enough, thanks.) Sometimes I wonder if it’s just a matter of losing weight – I did get promotions back when I was thin…but I was also young then as well, so it’s hard to sort one factor out from the other.

    1. Bobina*

      There have been a couple of posts about how to get out of the “office mom” stereotype, as well as getting out of positions you are “stuck” in – but a lot of the time it requires either a big change in attitude/approach or a change in job (either type of work or company).

      This sounds like a tough situation, best of luck!

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