can my employer make me wear a bra, my husband’s band doesn’t want to play my coworker’s wedding, and more

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can my employer require me to wear a bra?

I am a woman with large breasts. When I go to work, I wear a shirt/blouse and pants that are not transparent and don’t show excessive skin so private body parts are covered up.

About a month ago, my supervisor pulled me into her office and told me I need to wear a bra to work. Later that day, I asked two male coworkers who happen to be my friends if they were told to wear a bra and they said no.

Two weeks go by and that supervisor and another female supervisor again pull me into the office and ask why I’m not wearing a bra. I said that the men in the office aren’t wearing one so why should I? They told me men and women have different bodies, men don’t wear bras, and all the women in the office are wearing a bra.

Yesterday they brought me into the office again, telling me this is the last time I can come to work like this and next time I will be sent home to put on a bra. They gave me a copy of the company dress code policy, and nowhere does it say employees have to wear a bra. It does say employees are expected to be neat, well-groomed, and suitably dressed for work and that sexually provocative clothing is prohibited. I told them I have no problem with a dress code policy as long as it’s applied to everyone equally. I would have no problem wearing a bra if men were also required to wear one. They told me men don’t wear bras but women have to wear one. What should I do?

I agree employers shouldn’t be policing employees’ undergarments but legally, employers are permitted to require women to wear bras despite not requiring it of men (as long as they make exceptions for medical or religious accommodations). In the U.S., courts have generally upheld different dress codes for men and women based on traditional gender stereotypes, as long as the dress code doesn’t place a significantly higher burden on one sex. They can also, for example, prohibit long hair or nail polish on men while allowing it on women. I suspect we’re going to see more legal challenges to this, though, particularly given the obvious clash with laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity, but so far it hasn’t changed legally. Until it does, employers can require bras. That’s true even if it’s not written down in their dress code (they’d likely argue it falls under general professional appearance).

So you’ve got to decide how much you want to push the issue. It’s really up to you — hell, if you want to, talk a lawyer and see if you can find someone up for testing the law — but so far they do have the right to require it.

2. My husband doesn’t want to play my coworker’s wedding

Our workplace is smallish, with about 50 employees scattered amongst separate departments. A few months ago, I had to speak with a relatively new employee, Jane. She is in a different department than I am and I rarely have to interact with her. She is a recent college grad and this is her first job out of college. She normally gives off a friendly vibe, but during my talk with her she was rather rude and basically insinuated I was stupid with the question I asked. After the interaction, I avoided her and she has said and done more things in the office that give off “entitlement vibes.” It’s incredibly frustrating.

Jane has also recently become engaged and is actively searching for vendors for her wedding. And as karma would have it, my husband has the biggest/most successful wedding band in our state. I help him run the business behind the scenes, but he is the talent and is very well known in our area.

I was replying to wedding inquiry emails recently, when it just so happens Jane had inquired about pricing. She stated in the email she’s seen the band play multiple times and in her words “NEEDS” to have them play for her day to be perfect.

I don’t think she knows the wedding band and singer she wants is my husband. (These emails are addressed to something like name@weddingband.com.) We have a pretty common last name, I don’t go out to see him play much, and he’s only visited me a handful of times at work. My husband knows all the work drama and my frustration with this woman and he doesn’t really want me to have to deal with all of her wedding details behind the scenes. Her wedding date is out far enough that he hasn’t booked it yet. He also has a calendar on their website with dates that are open so clients can clearly see if the date they want is booked or not.

My husband suggests asking for an atrocious amount of money so she will decline herself. I think we should just respond that they won’t be a good fit and leave it at that. I want to hear what you would suggest that would be professional for myself and my husband.

Asking for a ridiculous amount of money risks blowback in ways you’re not anticipating (like if she discourages someone else from hiring the band because of their prices) … or she could even say yes. And “not a good fit” is going to raise a ton of questions about why. You’re better off just replying that it’s looking very likely the band will have a conflict with that date and so you’re not able to book it. Yes, it’s open on the website but she’s not going to know what might be happening behind the scenes. If she continues to email after that, give one firm “we won’t be available to play your wedding, best wishes” and stop replying.

3. Is it unprofessional to sit with my foot on my chair?

I am in my late 20’s, in my first professional role. I’ve worked in offices my whole work life but only in admin/research roles. I’ve never had any complaints about my professionalism at work (that I’m aware of!), but my new role working directly for the owner of a firm with billable hours and client meetings has me questioning myself.

I cannot sit comfortably in an office chair unless I have one foot tucked up under me. Sometimes I sit completely cross-legged. I know it’s weird, but I’ve always been this way. I wear high-heel ankle boots or strappy heels every day so my feet are never completely bare and exposed, and my legs are mostly concealed under my desk. It’s only if my boss comes to my desk to chat and I swivel to face him, that anyone would know. I also never ever sit like this in meetings or anywhere but my desk.

Could sitting comfortably reflect poorly on me? Or do other people do it too?

Some other people sit this way too! I wouldn’t do it in most meetings (unless it’s a very casual one) and definitely not with clients or if you sit in a public-facing area, but otherwise in most offices it’s not a big deal (with the exception of fields that expect you to be especially polished all the time).

4. My boss wants me to take a class when I’m already drowning

I just had my performance review at work. I have a very corporate job and am comfortable in my position. My boss said he wants one of my goals for the year to be getting a specific designation (ex: Jane Smith, CPA) which means lots of studying and a test.

I have two little kids, 18 months and four years old, who go to daycare full-time and don’t sleep through the night, and every day I am just spent. Is it horrible that I don’t want to take on anything additional right now? Maybe in a couple years I’ll be in a better head space for this but I just feel like I’m drowning and having the added pressure of this class and passing the test is already giving me so much anxiety. I know you are suppose to “always keep learning” blah blah blah, but can’t I just be content where I am at? Is this bad? Am I the only one like this? My kids are my life and honestly work for me is a job. I hate to say I don’t “care” about my career but ugh. Sorry for rambling. When I took this job there was no mention of additional education requirements. Can I be fired if I say no? I know plenty of moms work, go to school, etc. and I applaud them.

Your reaction is not bad and you are not the only one who would feel overwhelmed. Your situation is overwhelming enough as it is, without adding more stresses in! There is nothing wrong with saying to your boss, “Because of some things going on in my life outside of work, it would be difficult for me to pursue this right now. I’m open to revisiting it down the road, but realistically it’s not something I can take on this year.”

In a lot of situations and with a lot of bosses, that would be the end of it! Your boss may have no idea that you feel this way and might back off completely once you say no. In theory he could tell you it’s a requirement to keep your job, but unless there’s an obvious reason for him to do that (like the law has changed and this designation is now required in order to do your job), that’s probably not going to happen. If it does, you’ll figure out at that point if you’re up for doing it or not (and can consider saying the only way you can do it is if the classes and studying happen during work time) … but there’s a good chance you won’t need to.

Now, might there other costs to saying no? Sure, with some bosses there could be. (Others won’t care.) But it’s okay to make those trade-offs when you want/need to.

5. Relocation resources for job candidates

I’m working in HR for a company that provides utility services to an industrial park, and we are working incredibly hard to counteract the loss of about 30 long-time employees in the last three years to retirement. We are doing all the things you do in such situations, working with national recruiters, and trying to entice people to move to our location.

As such, I’m thinking about developing a small packet of resources to give to candidates who fly out to meet for an in-person interview. I thought I could include the names of a couple real estate agents, some information about school rankings in the area, and …. other stuff about our city. But what other stuff? Do other companies do this? What resources should we provide to people considering a move to a new location?

Yes, this is a thing companies do! You can include info on cultural attractions and local events, public transportation, the cost of living (including median rent and home prices), anything that might make your area especially appealing (maybe it’s the low cost of living, tons of nature, lots of cultural events, diversity of the schools, or a small community feel), and even quotes from employees about why they like living there and/or their favorite area spots. If you offer relocation help, make sure you give details about that as well.

{ 846 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A note that we don’t need hundreds of comments about whether you personally do or don’t find a bra comfortable! Some people do, some people don’t. Bodies are different. I’m removing the threads I see that are just personal experiences of bras (in either direction) since they’re not contributing to the discussion (although with 600+ comments I’m sure I will miss some) and ask that people not keep doing that. Thank you.

    Reply
  2. CL*

    #4 – My boss suggested last year that I get my PMP. Besides having too much family stuff on my plate, I just wasn’t interested. I told him that wasn’t the direction I was interested in for my career and countered with a few day certification in my area of interest that I could do with little extra effort. Is there something manageable you could counter with?

    Reply
    1. Alice*

      This reminds me of my old toxic boss who casually mentioned he had signed me up for a banking licensure exam and it had to be passed within 12 weeks- knowing full well I had 2 weeks of vacation and a summer full of weekend travel and weddings coming up. I made a huge stink with hr and was able to push the timeline. You MUST advocate for yourself- whether it’s having no time or no interest.

      Reply
      1. Rosacolleti*

        I would have assumed you would be allocated work time to study rather than your own time if it was something your manager asked you to do. That wouldn’t fly in my business, and I own it!

        Reply
        1. Alice*

          Nope! Working 12 hour days (sometimes longer) plus commute and he expected me to “make time” to study and pass the exam. He told me to get up at 6am and study like he had done in the past. I was on the verge of a meltdown when he told me which is why I went to hr and let them rip him a new one. On the positive side it was having HR validation that put me on the path to seeing how toxic the job was and getting out of there.

          Reply
          1. The Star Gazer*

            But we’re talking about a licensure exam here (probably a Series 7), which is very different from general professional development. I don’t see the boss as acting unreasonably if you’re required to hold the license to do your job.

            Reply
    2. Snow Globe*

      I think it’s entirely possible that the manager is required to put in some kind of developmental goals into the review, and if you are doing well overall (ie, you don’t need any training to do your current job), the manager just thought that getting this certification would help down the road. It might not be a big deal at all if you push back, but you may need to come up with some sort of alternative development plan, but you could try to think of something that you could do during work hours.

      Reply
      1. I can't think of anything clever this early*

        I’ve seen this play out. Grandboss encouraged boss to go and get his customs broker license, which requires a really difficult test (much lower pass rate than the bar or CPA tests). Boss put it off again and again. An opportunity for a major promotion comes up which Grandboss has been grooming Boss for, but it requires a broker license and so he misses out to someone else. Eventually boss starts to study for the test, and successfully passes it, but an opportunity for the type of position he missed is really rare. Boss is laid off and can’t find a position in the field at the level he should be at. Sad story – I liked that boss.

        Reply
    3. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Years ago I agreed to take a certification exam I didn’t care about because my boss wanted me to take on some duties that required the credential. I told him I’d only take it if he paid for it out of the department budget and he agreed. Registration was $1700 (you read that right – I’m an MD). I put in a request for payment and the department administrator responded “We’ll reimburse you if you pass.”

      Forwarded that to my boss with a note saying “FYI – I’m not taking it” and had a check four days later. Oh, and I passed.

      Reply
      1. Observer*

        I put in a request for payment and the department administrator responded “We’ll reimburse you if you pass.”

        Don’t you love when people unilaterally try to impose rules and conditions that they don’t have the standing to do?

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        1. GlitterIsEverything*

          Also in medicine, though not a physician.

          Our techs have to take a test to obtain gradually increasing certifications. Company pays for the test, but not your time while taking it. If you pass, you get a bonus. If you don’t pass, the retest fee is taken out of your bonus.

          Reply
      2. Somehow_I_Manage*

        Your outcome in the medical field ended up similar to corporate industry, but they gave you the run around. In the corporate world, typically the expectation is that your company pays for any mandated training in full, including necessary certification courses and exams for your job. That’s normal and standard in industry. Mandatory certifications and trainings can often run well into the thousands of dollars.

        The line is typically drawn at tuition reimbursement towards a useful, but voluntary degree or program. For example, if a company has tuition assistance to help you pursue a graduate degree part time. That is part of your benefits- it’s voluntarily available to all employees, not necessarily tied to your work, and it’s typical to require you meet a certain academic standard as a condition of reimbursement.

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        1. Random Dice*

          I’ve always had to pay out of pocket if I didn’t pass. It certainly makes me not go for certifications.

          Reply
    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      @CL, keep in mind, the PMP certification is one of a handful of certifications that is often required for “key staff” on requests for proposals- especially from federal agencies. So, it may not be reasonable to “counter,” without the context for why they need it. It is however, reasonable to say no, if it’s not a fit. Or, to request accommodation to make it work. For example, OP could offer to complete the certification on the condition that they were allowed to dedicate up to 8 hours a week of paid time towards the effort.

      Reply
      1. CL*

        You make several good points about context and requesting accommodations. My situation is that my manager has a PMP and thinks everyone should. I work in a slightly different area than they do, and I know almost no one on my career path with a PMP.

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    5. Hummer on the Hill*

      I’ve been on the other side of this, as a manager. I’d get told by my superior about some corporate initiative that all employees must show some quantifiable improvement in their professional skills, with certain courses recommended. I’d have no choice but to mention this in a PA. So, my employee and I would both give it lip service, and by the time the year finished, the person who had dreamt up the initiative had floated on to other pastures, and we could just get back to doing what made our unit successful. That might be part of it too. As Alison and others said, just advocate for yourself.

      Reply
    6. CaptainMeg*

      #3
      I’m a teacher with ADHD and I sit in so many weird ways. I eventually ordered a kneeling chair that I absolutely love, and it weirds out my students because they can never figure out how I sit in it.

      Reply
  3. CarlDean*

    #1 – not to be dense, but I’ve never noticed whether someone is wearing a bra or not. I guess I sometimes notice a bra strap or the outline of a bra under shirt, depending on type of top, number of layers, body type, etc. I’m not sure how you would know if someone not wearing a bra. (I’m a woman, and I guess I’ve just never thought about it.)

    I would probably just be like – “I am wearing a bra.” With a straight face. What are they going to do? Make you strip to prove it? I don’t think they can make you take your clothes off.

    I don’t understand how asking about an employee’s bra and being over fixated on an employees breasts is not sexual harassment.

    Why not respond: “It makes me uncomfortable that you are fixated on my breasts. I would appreciate if you stopped looking at and discussing my breasts.”

    Reply
    1. coffee*

      When you’re large chested, wearing a bra can noticeably change your silhouette. The apex of your bust will probably be lower without a bra, and your breasts may also sit further apart. Women’s clothing will also be made on the assumption of a woman wearing a bra/having their breasts in a particular position. (This assumption can be wrong, which is why e.g. a shirt won’t fit right despite having enough fabric to cover you. This is the trade-off of not tailoring all our clothes anymore. Clothes are cheaper but assumptions have to be made.)

      Anyway I have noticed people not wearing bras in the past but I also am aware of the arbitrary nature of what is considered “an appropriate undergarment” for a particular gender. There’s been a lot of variation of the centuries/across different cultures.

      Reply
      1. CarlDean*

        I guess I’m just dense. I’ve never noticed. Or I thought a lot of women just had ill fitting bras and clothes and/or odd bodies. (I’m also ADHD and sometimes I’m oblivious to details that other people seem to notice easily.)

        Reply
        1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          Are you the kind of person who notices when somebody else is wearing a new dress, or are you the kind of person who goes “this person isn’t NOT wearing clothes” and thinks no more about the subject?

          I have a minor interest in fashion and that means I often notice people’s clothes, which inevitably means noticing something about how the clothes fit the body inside them. You can’t go “man, that dress really flatters her bosom, I really like how the designer used the princess seams, I should try some dresses like that sometime” without, you know, noticing her bosom. Which is definitely weird. But it’s nor prurient or creepy or staring or at all sexual.

          There’s nothing wrong or dense about not paying attention to this sort of thing. But there’s nothing wrong with noticing either.

          Reply
          1. Siege*

            I have a very technical interest in fashion and garment construction and am actively interested in what flatters different body types. (Largely, this is because most women are incredibly poorly served by modern fits, which represent a terrible cost to fit in favor of cheap and easy to make.) I absolutely notice when a large-breasted woman isn’t wearing a bra, in the same way I noticed a former colleague didn’t wear shoes: it’s pretty obvious! It isn’t prurient or sexual, but there are so many cues around position of the breast, visibility of the nipple, motion during movement, etc. (Also, the colleague’s wife eventually convinced him to wear Birkenstocks, which was also noticeable.)

            I’m having a lot of trouble imagining how a large-breasted woman could go braless and look professional, but on the other hand, as a large-breasted woman with neurospiciness-related aversions, I am also very, very hung up on how much I would want to claw my own skin off, so maybe it’s possible?

            Reply
          2. mlem*

            I have a coworker who notices, and often comments on, specific garments. I think I am in fact more in the “this person isn’t NOT wearing clothes” category unless something specific pokes my attention (like “huh, everyone’s wearing a blue top today” or “wow, that entire outfit is A Look and I am here for it!”). I also generally don’t notice whether someone’s wearing a bra unless there’s a significant amount of jiggle going on when they move (and even then, it’s more a guess than knowledge).

            Reply
        2. Allonge*

          Not noticing does not make you dense, just as people who notice are not creeps (or at least it’s not the noticing that makes them creeps).

          It’s one of the billion ways people are different from one another.

          Reply
      2. Dahlia*

        A very, very low support bralette will not significantly change the shape of your chest if it’s larger, and is still wearing a bra.

        Reply
        1. Princess Sparklepony*

          I was thinking the same thing – technically, you are complying…. Although you might get some pushback. But I stopped wearing a bra regularly a few years ago. But there are all kinds of bras out there.

          Reply
      3. Hiding*

        So I’m hiding for this one, because it’s something I’m still working out in my own mind.

        Years ago I worked with a woman who went out on a couple of weeks leave an A cup and returned a permanent headlight E cup. She wore VERY tight tops, no bra a lot of the time and her nipples made us all think we weren’t in the subtropics. Did it change her professional capability? No. Did it confirm a few things about her lack of professional capability. Yes. But the boob job didn’t do it, she had a range of highly sexualised behaviours prior to this, this just brought it under a headlight.

        Then I reflect on that trans m2f in Canada who is wearing ZZ prosthetic breasts while trying to teach woodshop on lathes. Hrm.

        And I remember a co worker who was overweight, wore very little in the way of support, and a flesh toned top under a lose blazer, and every time she turned around I swear she was nude and flashing me.

        FWIW I’m a woman, in a male dominated field. Only about 5% of the workforce was female, and females were only in management roles. So this sort of things was very very visible just because we were rather rare.
        Another employee deliberately wore very very short skirts and then spent a lot of time bending over photocopiers etc, and no it wasn’t a part of her job.

        It was a workplace fraught with sexual issues, and between the non bra wearing woman, the flesh toned ‘barely there support’ and the mini skirt flirt I (and a couple of other women who expressed it to me) was incredibly frustrated at the lack of professional attitude towards us as women. I had to work three times harder to prove that as a young, professional, frankly attractive woman I was capable of doing work without the mini skirt and without underwear being discussed.

        Three women undid it for about four others. And it’s coloured my opinion of women, sexuality and professional attire in the workplace forever afterwards. I feel that wearing a bra if it’s obvious you aren’t wearing one is a reasonable thing you can do to prevent this sort of dysfunction. But I am annoyed that we ‘have to’ prove that we’re more professional than the men. (And I resent this new world where young things can demand all sorts of things that we couldn’t twenty years ago, and somehow assume they are getting professional reputations at the same time. I don’t know how that works, and I’m wildly curious if it does! – See still much to think/ponder/learn for me!)

        Reply
        1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          About that person in Canada with the giant prosthetic breasts: I don’t have the link handy, but from that person’s backstory, there seemed to be reason to suspect they were hoping to elicit a dramatic argument with the school, rather than genuinely hoping to be accepted with their new giant breasts. So possibly not “good-faith breasts” so to speak.

          Reply
          1. Marley*

            “I don’t have the link handy, but from that person’s backstory, there seemed to be reason to suspect they were hoping to elicit a dramatic argument with the school, rather than genuinely hoping to be accepted with their new giant breasts.”

            The source of this is ONE post on a 4chan type board. People who live in the area have observed this individual (the teacher) walking around the community like this for at least a couple of years and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this person is “anti-woke” or trying to teach the school board a lesson. I’m shocked so many people have repeated this misinformation.

            Reply
        2. sookie st james*

          3 women didn’t make your workplace hostile for you or create a sexist environment in which you had to work 3 times as hard – the culture (both within your male-dominated workplace/industry and outside of it in society) did that. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have been more professional, I wasn’t there, but allowing the behaviour of 3 women to (in your words) colour your view of all women is… kind of staggering to me. Consider that there are probably well over 3 men you’ve crossed paths with in your career who also display questionable judgement, lack a grasp of professional norms, wear less-than-professional attire, etc, but men’s behaviour and their bodies are not scrutinised and judged in the way that women’s are, so their behaviour has not coloured your view of all men and their sexuality/ability to perform professionalism in the workplace.

          Unfortunately we do still place a higher burden on femme-presenting people when it comes to these things, but I agree with posters above that the shape of someone’s boobs *should not* have any bearing on whether or not they’re deemed professional.

          Reply
          1. Millennial*

            +1.
            Also, their behavior did not take place in a vacuum. They were responding to SOMETHING* in the culture of that workplace that caused them to make these calculations.

            *the something is the patriarchy and more specifically an environment where women weren’t taken seriously as professionals (as you discovered) so they had to find other ways to gain influence

            Also- your closing rant about “young things” and what we “demand” is… oof. Times and cultural mores alike change, habibti, and that’s a GOOD thing.

            Reply
            1. SoUnidentifiable*

              Yep. That closer was very big “I suffered so everyone else should have to” energy and I’m
              Not Here For It. Some woman in the 60s wasn’t allowed to work on your field at all, I’m betting, and because of young things demanding stuff, YOU were able to.

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            2. sookie st james*

              big agree. the idea that ‘demanding’ fairer treatment/different accommodations is mutually exclusive from professionalism is actually pretty dangerous imo – the head honchos of capitalism are the only people who benefit from us thinking we have no right to advocate for ourselves

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            3. Verthandi*

              Yes yes yes! And adding the following….

              I would hope that the young “things” don’t have to fight the same battles as the generation before. The world *should* become a better place for coming generations.

              Reply
          2. Wendy*

            So, what is the best solution to this issue?

            Specifically what do women, as a whole, need to do about this issue?

            And specifically how are women, as a whole, need to do to solve the issue?

            Reply
              1. sookie st james*

                I wouldn’t say it’s our problem to solve alone – it’s part of a systemic problem throughout our culture. But as for what women ourselves can/should do about it… well I’d say it’s pretty much whatever’s the opposite of judging each other’s outfits, behaviour, and ability to advocate for themselves.

                I promote questioning sexist wardrobe policies (where safe for you to expend the capital), supporting fellow coworkers rather than seeing them as competition for the ‘token female’ position, and prioritising your own emotional and physical comfort in the workplace wherever possible.

                Reply
            1. Ashley*

              Dress codes that are defined by our sex should be part of the solution. How likely that is to happen depends on a lot of factors.
              Courts have held up rules regarding women in swim suits have to wear tops previously, but this is something that could be strategically fought in the courts. The current Supreme Court makeup may not make for the best timing, but it is something you want to pick a friendly lower court and work its way up. At some point a woman has to be willing to be fired and get that documented as to why they were fired and be willing to sue. Bonus points if it is a government agency or someone working with government contracts where more anti-discrimination laws apply.

              Reply
          3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            +1000. I am having a hard time understanding how these three women “undid it” for the rest, in ways that (first example that comes to mind) a male coworker that crashed another team’s lunch, jumped into their team-building exercise with a totally NSFW answer to an icebreaker question, and caused several people to call HR the minute the team lunch ended, didn’t “undo it” for the hundreds of male coworkers and managers at my workplace. Literally no one said “now that Fergus did this heinous thing, we can no longer take any man in this workplace seriously, sorry, guys.”

            Reply
        3. Fluffy Fish*

          I think you need to examine why other women existing in their bodies bothers you.

          We don’t get to apply our personal standards to others. And frankly its really gross to question other women’s professionalism and assign them (sexual) motivation because you don’t like how they dress or how their breasts (really?) appear to you.

          And this? “I had to work three times harder to prove that as a young, professional, frankly attractive woman I was capable of doing work without the mini skirt and without underwear being discussed.”

          That’s not other women’s fault. That’s patriarchy and misogyny and you’ve internalized and are displaying a whole lot of it. Other women aren’t your enemy. Make more seats at the table instead of pushing them out because there’s no room. Be glad that those “young things” don’t have to fight like you did – why would you want people to have to put up with the crap you did?

          Reply
          1. Observer*

            And this? “I had to work three times harder to prove that as a young, professional, frankly attractive woman I was capable of doing work without the mini skirt and without underwear being discussed.”

            That’s not other women’s fault.

            So much this!

            The people you should have been judging were the people who rewarded her behavior *and* the people who assumed that “attractive woman” MUST equal “dimwit”.

            Was her behavior professional or appropriate? No. Was her behavior the cause of your needing to work 3x as hard to prove competence? Absolutely NOT.

            The fact that you don’t see that speaks to your judgement not that of your former coworkers.

            Reply
            1. Fluffy Fish*

              Agreed.

              I also have to say that I’m not willing to take this commenters version of her former coworkers behavior at face value on this one. Thinking along the lines of tall girls who get dress coded for skirts too short when it’s simply because they are tall. Maybe it’s 100% accurate and without the skew of her biased lens, but there’s a good chance it’s not.

              I do believe that she genuinely believes her interpretation though. And I challenge her to revisit those interpretations without viewing other women as the enemy, the understanding that people are individuals, and thinking about why she’s so sure these 3 women ruined everything and colored her view of all working women but not thinking about all the other women she’s worked with or men who have exhibited good/bad behavior.

              Something that comes to mind when people are struggling to understand things that challenge their world view is sometimes you don’t need to understand, you can just recognize your bias, keep it to yourself, and not be a glassbowl. Acceptance, and recognizing that gut reaction isn’t necessarily the truth, can lead to understanding down the road.

              Reply
              1. Hiding*

                I am trying to rethink this, that’s partly why I opened up the discussion.

                The woman with the too tight tops over a significant breast augmentation was sleeping with the boss.
                The woman with the too short skirt was actually normal height, and intentionally shortened her skirts by several inches. And when it was suggested to her that I didn’t want to see her underwear I was told “It’s not for you to care about, I can show my underwear if I want, we’re all adults”. (I felt like retorting “why does your G string belong in my workplace?”)
                She was also sleeping with one of the other managers.

                The whole place was a misogynistic hell hole of sexual and male vs female problems… but rather than rise above it nearly half the women in the workgroup ‘used’ their ‘female wiles’ (ugh, I don’t know how else to put it) and milked that workplace for their promotions and gain. The only way to get promoted was to sleep with others. It sucked, I left, along with all the other ‘reasonable’ women …. And we KNEW it wasn’t our fault, but still there were enough ‘traitors’ in the mix who were cashing in that it left a deep resentment.

                It had an impact on me, and twenty years later I am still unsure about the professional nouse of women who are ‘overtly sexy’ in the workplace. Something I’m reflecting on. I’m not talking beautiful or striking or tall women, or large breasted… I’m talking altering clothing to be tighter (intentionally running darts in to hug the breasts), shorter (hem lengths, or lowering the necklines), intentionally leaning over photocopiers in dramatically shortened skirts sort of stuff. Overtly bringing sexual poses and behaviour into the workplace, and dressing in tops cut to the belly button, or in micro mini skirts. If you have to wear that stuff to work, a place where sex is supposed to be left at the door, why? For the women from my past it was because they were all so insecure in their abilities that they did this to get attention, and promotions and benefits – they all got pay bumps, significant promotions and many small but ‘special’ benefits that others weren’t able to get, but they were also openly laughed at by the guys, and the few women who weren’t part of this ‘network’ didn’t respect them much either. (Yes, it was a hellishly toxic workplace)

                I guess the reality is that while this isn’t how this should be, that there are plenty of people out there who have been messed with over the years and it takes time to rework that thinking. Just yelling at people/telling them they should change what they think won’t do it, instead actively listening to them, and having an open conversation where they can ask questions, explain what’s lead them where they are and giving them time to reform new opinions is more likely to have a lasting effect.

                Reply
                1. Random Dice*

                  With the kindest intention, this is a lot of anger at half the world population, that you should address in counseling if you can afford it.

                  You’re blaming women for having made the best of a fucked-up sexist conspiracy against them. You’re still pissed decades later.

                  This was clearly traumatizing for you, and you’d have so much peace if you could talk it out with a professional.

                2. bamcheeks*

                  The woman with the too tight tops over a significant breast augmentation was sleeping with the boss.

                  Your boss was the one with the power in this situation. You simply don’t know what kind of

                  The whole place was a misogynistic hell hole of sexual and male vs female problems… but rather than rise above it nearly half the women in the workgroup ‘used’ their ‘female wiles’ (ugh, I don’t know how else to put it) and milked that workplace for their promotions and gain. The only way to get promoted was to sleep with others.

                  Why should they “rise above it”? And why have you got far more anger for the women who “slept with people to get promotions” than the people who withheld promotions unless they got sexual favours?

                  You’ve described three groups of people here (. The first is the men, who are the larger group, and the group who hold the power both in terms of numbers and in having senior positions, and abuse that power.

                  Then you’ve got a group of women whose strategy for dealing with the abuse of power is to get out of it what they can.

                  Then you’ve got a second group of women, whose strategy for dealing with the abuse of power is to blame the first group of women for getting out of it what they can.

                  Both of those second two groups are in a shit situation, neither of you is “rising above it”, and neither of you is making anything better for women as a group. You’re not “rising above it” if you can’t extend solidarity and support to other women who are also being victimised by the sexism and power abuses of the male hierarchy! You are ALSO helping perpetuate their abuse by buying into the idea that women who are engaged in extremely unequal and risky sexual relationships are somehow worse than the men who are the more powerful parties in those relationships.

                  Put the blame where it belongs: on the people who withheld promotions and advancement unless they got sexual favours.

        4. bamcheeks*

          I really hope when you have finished working this out you are kinder to other women and yourself, and that you find yourself in solidarity with other women and marginalised gender folk against patriarchy.

          Reply
        5. vegan velociraptor*

          I’m really confused by your comment about your coworker’s weight. How does that affect the situation?

          By the way, “transgender woman” is a more generally accepted term now than “m2f”.

          Reply
        6. Kate*

          Minority opinion I guess, but it’s OK that you didn’t like this. Yes, flesh toned/very short clothing in the workplace is evidence of poor judgment. No, being a gender minority doesn’t mean you have to support the choices of every other gender minority on earth. Yes, it’s OK to read elective plastic surgery as reflective of someone’s values; presumably that’s what they intend by making obvious changes to their appearance. It’s possible to acknowledge that patriarchy is the cause of you being lumped together with other gender minorities (as you do acknowledge) and still wish that the other people shoehorned into the box with you behaved more professionally as it would make your life under patriarchy a bit easier.

          Reply
          1. Observer*

            If that were all this poster were doing, I would not be commenting, and I’m pretty sure that this is true of others.

            But she is BLAMING the *women* for the problems she endured, which is frankly nonsense. Did it possibly make her work a LITTLE harder? Possibly. But that’s the limit. Those other 3 women could have been paragons of professional behavior, and the basic problems would have still been there.

            Also she is resentful of younger women who have the audacity to push back on things that she lived with, apparently because if she suffered they should suffer too. Let’s be real here- there is NO WAY that she can claim that the current push back is in any way a contributing factor to the problems she had. Unless she’s claiming time travel.

            Reply
            1. Hiding*

              No. These women were sleeping with management. Changing their clothes in the glass walled offices (that they were ‘awarded’ after sleeping with management, more senior staff in cube farm). Showing G string underwear as they leant over copiers. A floor of 150 men, 7 women, three of them overtly sleeping with and sexualising the workplace. Getting promotions, special treatment and pay rises. It was a hyper sexualised workplace, fuelled by very nasty management, but cashed in on by a small number of women who were incredibly insecure in their professional abilities so chose to use sexual favours instead. They targeted the non-favour women as they moved up, and made sure that the few other women couldn’t proceed. I won’t go into exact detail here, but trust me, this was a complete sh it show.

              And yes, it’s left me wildly bitter. I now work in a very different environment, still male dominated, but my opinions of professional norms and what is really going on when a woman feels the need to wear a micro mini skirt and low cut top in a professional workplace were altered. The women in this workplace were as abhorrent as the men. Not all women are like this, but I eye off women who are aggressively sexual appearing in the workplace with strong suspicion now.

              Reply
              1. Claire*

                You know how Alison says that a toxic workplace can really mess up your ideas of what’s normal and what isn’t? I think you might want to consider that that’s happened to you. And maybe explore why you’re so angry at the women at this workplace but not the men.

                Reply
              2. RJ*

                I think the issue here is you are saying that men using their professional power to gain sexual favors is just as bad as women who are given the ultimatum of leave, sleep with them, or never get promoted; one of those things is far worse. The women are not the root problem, the men that built that toxic culture and made it so that’s what women felt they had to do are the problem.

                Reply
        7. I am Emily's failing memory*

          Some Gen Zers will make missteps like everyone does when they’re young and figuring stuff out, but the kids are OK.

          I’ve thought about this a good bit as an “elder millennial.” I think this is how generational shifts play out. You have some standard that the older cohorts are fully on board with, and as the ones in positions of power, they maintain it. A younger cohort or two start coming in, and they may dislike the standard but have no power to change it, so overall they go along with it because they have no other choice.

          At some point those who disliked but went along make up middle management and a new junior cohort comes into the workplace and hears from middle management, “Yeah, I know X is silly/stupid, but it’s just one of those things you’ve gotta do, top brass makes the rules.”

          Another 10 years go by and now upper management is filled with people who never saw the point of X but went along with it because it was the way things were done, and the youngest new workers are coming into an environment where almost everyone from top to bottom is acknowledging that X isn’t really necessary for any practical reason, and because they haven’t yet spent their entire professional lives doing X anyway, it seems like a prime candidate for a standard that needs changing. And if/when they start pushing for that change, it’s now happening in a completely different environment than such pushback would have taken place in 20 years earlier. The people who ever really cared about X are largely gone from the workplace, and the upper management who have the power to make changes are the people who never really saw the point of X in the first place but went along because they lacked standing. Now they have standing/power to change things and a workplace full of younger cohorts who would welcome the change, so it becomes an easy win if they can give people what they want.

          So yeah, I often marvel at the way today’s entry level workers are pushing back against BS that I knew was BS 20 years ago but didn’t push back on. I marvel at the way it works and is the engine of social change. It’s a pretty wild thing to realize oh, this is how change happens. These audacious kids. Bless them.

          Reply
          1. MurpMaureep*

            This is such a great framing of how working norms evolve over time! I’m solidly Gen-X and in a management role in my organization. I know I have blind spots, but I do try to take cues from my younger staff help older staff appreciate different perspectives. I’m thinking of a recent discussion around changes to the current dress code. We are trying to move towards general guidelines and away from (frequently gendered) laundry lists of how not to dress.

            Reply
          2. Parakeet*

            Yep, I think this is about right. And I will say, I have some empathy for the people who struggle with it emotionally – I don’t think it’s always and solely a matter of “I suffered so others should too,” precisely. I think there’s often an element of “Why was I not considered worthy of this?” (and fear that it will somehow undermine hard-won gains). Intellectually that doesn’t make a ton of sense, because society changes over time in pretty much the way you articulated so well, but emotions don’t always follow intellect.

            Reply
        8. learnedthehardway*

          I had to recruit a sales role once upon a time, for a manager who was very concerned about not having a woman in the role because of the same issues you mention. So, I addressed the ACTUAL issues.

          The ACTUAL issue was that a former employee had attempted to get business through sexual favours. This was unethical behaviour.

          Pointing that out and building in ways to test ethics within the interviewing process was a better and more effective strategy than discriminating against an entire gender.

          Reply
          1. Observer*

            Pointing that out and building in ways to test ethics within the interviewing process was a better and more effective strategy than discriminating against an entire gender.

            Absolutely! Especially since this kind of discrimination is not going to do much to get the outcomes they say they want. I mean, do they REALLY think that only women engage in unethical sales practices? That only women engage in inappropriate sexual conduct in the workplace?

            If what you are looking for is ethics, then look for markers of ethics. Being male doesn’t qualify.

            Reply
        9. Observer*

          And I resent this new world where young things can demand all sorts of things that we couldn’t twenty years ago, and somehow assume they are getting professional reputations at the same time

          Why the resentment? I mean, if they are asking for things that are not reasonable, then you can push back on that.

          But if what they are asking for (or demanding) is reasonable why on earth is your response that they can’t push for change just because you had it hard?

          I’m GLAD that there are some issues that young women don’t have to deal with so much any more. I’m GLAD that young women can *expect* to have time and a place to pump and still be seen as professional, even though I needed to have good fortune to have an especially good boss. I’m GLAD that women are less likely to have to take on unrelated admin type work and are more able to push back. etc.

          Reply
        10. MurpMaureep*

          I really hope that some of the introspection and self-examination in which you are engaging leads to the understanding that it is not the other women (or the “young things”) who are the enemy/problem.

          The only ones who benefit from divisiveness between members of underrepresented groups are those who continue to hold the reigns of power. No doubt many higher ups would be thrilled to know that you feel animosity towards other women and resent younger workers advocating for themselves.

          Reply
      4. Candi*

        I’m a G cup, and I’ve noticed the few times I’ve worn a shirt without a bra things move around more since they’re not held in place.

        I’ve also seen large women (apparently) not wearing bras in public, and their chests moving around as they move tends to be distracting when I catch it out of the corner of my eye. The same way a hummingbird or cat moving across the edge my vision is distracting. I think it’s the “not expecting motion and motion happens” factor.

        What I don’t get is how someone naturally large can stand to go without a bra. Ever since I hit DD as a young adult, it’s been literally painful to go without a bra of some kind. (As I understand it, implants usually provide some level of support.)

        Reply
        1. This Charming Woman*

          I’m a 40GG (UK sizing) bra size, and I’m way more comfortable without a bra, unless, say, I’m running or jumping. Unfortunately, I look “better” (as in, more “normal”) with a bra on, so I usually wear one if I’m going out, although some weekends I don’t bother with it and just skip it. Someday I hope we’re all less ageist and misogynist and are more comfortable seeing women with large breasts letting their breasts hang free.

          Reply
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “I’m not sure how you would know if someone not wearing a bra”

      If your breasts are on the larger side, you’ll definitely notice a difference since most underwire bras do the “lift and separate” thing, while most larger breasts don’t tend to do that naturally. The look is very different. That said, to actually notice you’d have to be staring at someone’s chest, and if you’re someone engaging in normal, workplace-appropriate, non-chest gazing, then it won’t be nearly as noticeable.

      Reply
      1. ceiswyn*

        You absolutely do not have to be staring at someone’s chest to notice if they’re not wearing a bra.

        It somewhat depends on the anatomy of the person with breasts, and on the obliviousness of the person talking to them, but in the same way that you would peripherally notice if someone weren’t wearing trousers without staring at their legs, you can peripherally notice that someone’s bosom is low, angled out, and moving a lot without staring at it.

        The workplace-inappropriate part is commenting on it.

        Reply
        1. abca*

          There’s quite a big range between “noticing” and “being confident enough to complain” though. I have large breasts and would also notice, but with that notice also comes an awareness that you’re looking at someones body in a work environment, and then you move attention elsewhere. For this to raise to the level of complaints it does feel like people have spent an awful lot of time looking at your breasts instead of your face.

          I am now also wondering where the line is. I don’t suggest bringing that up to the employer when you’re already on last warning, but this question and the comments made me think there really is a difficult line. Many women can get away with wearing a bralette, but could this women, with this employer? And if not, will they be more specific “we can still see your breast move”? Not seeing breasts move at all would surely be an unreasonable demand. I feel like this is the kind of thing where unspoken rules tend to work well until they’re challenged.

          Reply
          1. ceiswyn*

            I don’t think people are complaining because they’ve spent a lot of time looking at OP’s breasts. I suspect they’re just conservative people who think that not wearing a bra is ‘unprofessional’, and thus are probably pearl-clutchingly horrified just by noticing the shape/jiggle in their peripheral vision.

            Reply
          2. Fulana del Tal*

            This letter appeared in Reddit not too long ago and the OP’s job was interacting with customers, so it may be the customers’ complaints to the managers not necessary coworkers.

            Reply
            1. bighairnoheart*

              Oh, I didn’t know this was a crossover letter–thank you for sharing that. That impacts my perception of this, I think. People in customer facing roles are often held to different standards of dress than those who aren’t because they represent the company to its customers very directly, so this situation feels less egregious knowing that.

              Reply
          3. Cait*

            I was also wondering about the nipple factor. Bras tend to help keep nipples hidden whereas anyone (no matter how big their breasts are) who doesn’t wear a bra is more likely to “have their high beams on”. OP never mentioned this but that could also be part of the issue.

            Reply
            1. AnonyKid*

              This was honestly my first thought. I feel like OP, based on this letter, hasn’t asked why this request is being made of her – if it’s because her non-transparent shirts are way more transparent than she thinks and her nipples are visible, there’s a lot of non-bra options to fix that. (And would be the only reason to bring this up continually that makes sense to me. I had a boss who always had their high-beams on and try as I might to avoid thinking about it, it was super distracting.)

              Reply
              1. Momma Bear*

                Same. There’s a reason people are noticing and that was not expressed here. Once LW knows (and she might but didn’t want to say), she should work on a solution. Maybe it’s an extra tank top or maybe it’s a sweater but the response to ask her male coworkers about it just seems juvenile. Be a professional and find a workable compromise.

                Reply
              2. Ori*

                The problem, for me, is that we don’t ask men to cover their nipples. I’ve had male coworkers walk around like that, and yeah, it’s a little distracting when you first notice it, but we all just deal with it? Why do women have to go the extra mile to cover up when it’s not expected of men in an identical situation.

                Reply
          4. ferrina*

            Agree. This is a strange question about where the line is. Like… professional clothes don’t show nipples (for men or women), but sometimes it’s cold out and otherwise professional clothes aren’t doing their job, so we all politely ignore it. And some amount of movement is fine, but not above another amount.

            I’d be tempted to ask my supervisor spell out that line. Like “hey, traditional undergarments like that really don’t work for me. What are your specific concerns about my appearance?”

            That can help either A) your boss realize that it’s not about specific concerns, B) you understand where your wardrobe isn’t doing what you expect or C) your boss gets mad and blows up in a spectacular and terrible way.

            If Option A- there’s a chance that everyone can walk away gracefully. Give your boss an excuse to save face (“hmm, I’ll think about it. Can you pull me aside when you see a specific instance in the future?” while knowing the boss likely won’t pull you aside). This is where reasonable people can get caught up in societal misogyny, and it’s kind to let them have their realization and save face (also more effective- defensive people are less likely to be open to self-reflection, to coming from an approach of collaboration is more likely to change minds).

            If Option B- well, now you can get some wardrobe changes that work for you.

            If Option C- you’ll be in a bad place for your job, because your boss will become your enemy, and that can be really rough. But it sounds like this LW might not care at this point. There’s a chance the boss can give you some ammo for a harassment lawsuit, but that’s not a guarantee. Either way, it’s a bridge burnt. Whether or not that’s a good thing, only LW would know.

            Reply
        2. Caroline*

          Agree. If someone has a sizeable chest particularly, the swinging about is very noticeable. I don’t say it’s bad or wrong, just obvious.

          Reply
          1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

            This.

            I wear a light sports bra for two reasons: sweat reduction and motion reduction. I’m somewhere around a G cup, plus or minus a cup size depending on the measurement scheme and time of year (my basic weight and girth vary a lot.)

            Reply
        3. Lily Rowan*

          I once had an employee who didn’t wear a bra and other people told me to say something to her, and I still couldn’t see it because I literally don’t look at people’s bodies at work. I had to make a real point to look at her chest to see if I could tell or care. (I did not care.)

          Reply
      2. RussianInTexas*

        You totally don’t need to be starting at anyone’s chest to notice. You can just glance at a person and notice.

        Reply
      3. Anon today*

        I have large, no longer perky breasts. If I do any physical activity without a bra, it’s like two weasels in a sack. Kind of hard to miss and no staring required.

        Reply
      4. Candi*

        I don’t wear underwires.* But while the bras in question don’t separate, they still absolutely lift. The difference between the older saggy bras I wear strictly at home and the newer ones I wear out are visually noticeable in the mirror.

        *I hate the things with a passion, and Wingslove makes larger bras without underwires.

        Reply
        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          I hate the “lift”, or anything that makes my boobs prominent. I tend to buy minimizer or sports bras to restrain motion and flatten my chest.

          Reply
      5. BubbleTea*

        I’ve been wearing non-wired, non-separating bras for the last two years (they’re nursing bras, I’m breastfeeding) so that isn’t a sure-fire way to tell. I don’t think it’s made me less professional but possibly more pendulous.

        I felt that the LW was possibly going into this situation slightly spoiling for this fight. I’m not sure how I feel about it. Asking whether male colleagues were required to wear bras seems disingenuous, because she already knew the answer would be no. I feel like a more productive question to ask would be “in what way does wearing a bra make me more professional?” or perhaps “how does my underwear impact my work?” Those are really the issues that this societal standard has failed to address.

        Reply
        1. Random Dice*

          That’s where I landed too. I’m down with pushback on policing of female bodies.

          Bur the whole “I asked my male coworkers and *they* were never told to wear bras” from someone with large breasts was deliberately disingenuous. They aren’t asked to wear a garment for body parts they don’t have.

          “How does my underwear affect my work” is a really good way to put it.

          Reply
      6. Ace in the Hole*

        You certainly don’t have to stare at someone’s chest to tell if they’re wearing a bra.

        I don’t care if people wear bras, but I can often tell whether or not they are. They change the shape of a person’s bust, reduce the visibility of nipples, and also significantly reduce the movement of breasts (which is one reason many of us wear them – because we prefer bust support for our own comfort). Of course the degree of difference between supported and unsupported will vary a lot based on individual anatomy. Some clothes obscure bust shape and movement enough that the difference is not obvious, but many work-appropriate outfits do very little to hide it. In which case noticing is no different than noticing something like colorful shoes.

        Commenting on it? Calling it unprofessional? That’s where it crosses the line to inappropriate. The problem isn’t that people notice, the problem is that they feel it’s any of their business.

        Reply
    3. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Look, they can obviously tell. Some women you can. Straight up lying about something obvious isn’t going to do OP#1 any favors. Actually, it will make her look like an obstreperous liar. They can just say, “No, you are not, go home and fix it,” just like any other time an employee is straight up lying to them.

      And you can’t really turn a dress code violation problem into a sexual harassment problem. Let’s face it, a lot of dress code violations are uncomfortably personal. And the more egregious the dress code violation, the more uncomfortable and the more personal. “Please don’t wear graphic tees” is a pretty easy conversation for both parties. “Please don’t wear whale tails” is quite a bit harder. But employers have to be able to correct these things if they want to have a dress code at all.

      (Also, thank you for the chance to use “obstreperous”. It’s a good word and I don’t get to use it enough.)

      Reply
      1. philmar*

        Agreed, if she lies to her boss’ face, now she is being fired for lying about doing something she hasn’t done, which is much more straightforward (and less sympathetic) than getting fired for repeatedly refusing to comply with the dress code.

        Reply
        1. Stitch*

          Yes. Op, do not do this. You will get fired.

          Look it’s fun to imagine these “fight the power” scenarios online. But OP could actually take your advice and get fired. Maybe OP is lucky, maybe they’ll be able to find another job or don’t financially need their job. But maybe they’ll have trouble finding a new job (because let’s get real someone not wearing a bra to an interview could very likely cost them a job).

          Reply
      2. Smithy*

        Yes, I think when it comes to a lot of dress codes – particularly for women – hoping that a rigid reading of them will defend you is far more likely to hurt your career long run unless you’re prepared to take a legal stand or have a union that can defend you.

        I’m a tall woman, and a lived reality with that is what is considered a skirt or dress “too short” for work will likely not read the same on a shorter woman. Add to this having hips/thighs/not being skinny – and that length is probably different than on a woman of the same height but thinner.

        One reading of this, is that these corrections are unfair and also not precise. Which is true. But the other reading is that for my industry, there is an approximately accepted length that is perceived as “too short”. And the more I understand what that approximate length is, it only serves to help my career dress in the long run in a way where I can also be myself as much as possible.

        Bras are incredibly fraught, especially when you have a larger bossom. But making this adversarial and including lies seems like a path to only expend more and more professional capital. It may be that even for a larger chest, tank tops with a support shelf or low impact sports bras/bralettes would provide enough bra-esque support for this job. But finding that compromise will only be through working with the OP’s job, not against it.

        Reply
        1. I am Emily's failing memory*

          hoping that a rigid reading of them will defend you is far more likely to hurt your career long run

          Yes, there’s a reason that saying the phrase “rules-lawyering” is used almost exclusively as a negative description of someone’s actions.

          Reply
          1. Candi*

            The people who successfully pull off strict interpretation of the rules without ticking everyone off usually know 1) how to move between the spirit and the letter and 2) know when and how to compromise. (In other words, they’re good at good politics.)

            Reply
        2. Candi*

          (Agreeing) There was a reason why my kids’ school dress codes for skirts and shorts didn’t focus on clothing length -they focused on the length on the person. There had to be no more than “two fingers” (1-2 inches in practice) between the knee and the hem.

          It’s much easier to get to approximate appropriate-for-environment lengths and sizes when the fit of the clothing, rather than size, is examined.

          Reply
        3. DocVonMitte*

          I’m an autistic woman and this topic is such a minefield for me. So much of “appropriate attire” is intuitive (I know the obvious stuff like don’t wear shorts/club attire, etc) but would seriously struggle with more nuanced stuff. I wish all companies had VERY clear dress codes or managers willing to be very specific in this area.

          Reply
          1. Smithy*

            I honestly think that the more you embrace *how* intuitive so much is, you will proactively seek advice from those likely to give it and those who give you advice in ways you want to hear.

            My #1 example and the area where I struggle most is with wrinkles. I have a very externally facing job, and while I’d say I’m largely ok when it comes to style – early in my career I was living in a fairly hot climate, entirely reliant on public transportation and walking, didn’t make much money, and a tall/larger woman in a country that rarely offered my size. So while dress codes want clean/professional clothes – how that applies to creases or wrinkles in clothing that occur through natural wear. Particularly women’s dress clothes made of thinner materials….

            It was a challenging context and honestly one that will always be subjective. I also happened to have a VERY blunt boss who twice told me I had to go home and change before events. While it wasn’t in a kind way, she was right and it made it clear to me my blind spots and how I can most adjust for them. So in future when I’ve bought work clothes for travel or high profile events, those are some of the “idiot proof” features I have in mind.

            I don’t think any dress code can be perfectly clear on what is an acceptable level of wrinkling and what isn’t across fabrics.

            Reply
    4. Turanga Leela*

      The boss can’t make her strip, but the boss doesn’t exactly have to “prove” that she wasn’t wearing a bra. The boss can fire her because it’s clear to the boss that she’s not wearing a bra and is lying about it. If she sues over it, the boss can testify about her observations that OP was obviously not wearing a bra.

      To a lot of people (including me!), it is really noticeable when a woman doesn’t wear a bra. I would never comment on it, but unrestrained breasts tend to move around a lot, and it’s an easy thing to pick up on even if you’re not fixated on the person’s breasts. (There are ways to hide it, though–layers, boxy or bulky clothing, scarves, etc.)

      Reply
      1. Unexpected Outcomes*

        For anyone wanting to challenge a workplace over bra requirements, I think repeatedly saying, “unrestrained breasts” could be fun and possible help.

        I understand our policy does not allow unrestrained breasts, I’m curious about our unrestrained breast policy, tell me more about what coworkers said about my unrestrained breasts…

        Reply
        1. I Work for Cats*

          That’s going to be the name of my band. “The Unrestrained Breasts”

          But seriously, that would be a hill I would die on. What’s next, a girdle? I don’t think any employer should have control over what kind of underwear you wear.

          Reply
        2. Maggie*

          No, that’s just childish and purposely obtuse. There are many solutions such as trying bralettes, tank tops, vests, thicker clothing, scarves, etc.

          Reply
          1. Pugetkayak*

            I felt the argument “are you asking the men to wear them” was also kind of childish. It certainly is not going to fix the problem, sometimes intelligently arguing a point (even if you feel this is unnecessary given the circumstances) is going to solve your problem. And there could be other solutions that don’t involve wearing a bra.

            Reply
            1. Candi*

              The question should at least be rephrased as “will you ask men to wear them if their pecs get big enough that there are similar issues and complaints to a woman with large breasts not wearing a bra.” Because then the question focuses on the issue of moving tissue and not clothing that is normally associated with women.

              Reply
                1. Avril Ludgateaux*

                  In so far as mandatory bras – which are expensive, more “pink tax” that women have to pay and men don’t – present an additional burden on women only (which they do), it absolutely is sexist. Just because it is sexism we have grown to accept, does not make it less sexist.

      2. Smithy*

        I would also add to the whole “proof of bra” likely won’t even matter and where this will ultimately just support the bra – there are plenty of “bras” out there on the more provocative side of life that either provide little to zero nipple coverage or rather exagerated nipple shape (i.e. bringing back a Marilyn Monroe cone style bra). So again, ultimately this would be about “professional dress” and the employer could give a long list of lingerie style bras that would also be inappropriate.

        So if the OP *was* wearing a bra and rather was just embarassed to be criticized for not wearing one, that it was still indicative of unprofessional dress no different than a “whale tail”. At this point, the employer could likely also indicate having told the OP mulitple times in different contexts to have provided a space for the OP to share information like “I do wear a bra, what’s wrong with this bra”.

        Reply
      1. Tiptoe*

        Good idea in theory but the result will be the bra resting on top of her breasts. If it is not a soft bra it will be very, very noticeable, and arguably draw more attention than not wearing a bra. It will be the same principle as men’s underwear so high you can see the brand name.
        Besides we don’t know if OP even owns a bra. It will be money spent in vain if she goes to buy one for this specific purpose.

        Reply
        1. BubbleTea*

          My dad took this approach to the requirement that his (extremely obedient and well-trained) dog must be on a lead. She was, it was just very short and he wasn’t holding the other end of it. I’m not necessarily advocating my dad as a paragon of professionalism – there’s a reason his career was very successful and that reason is called self-employment.

          Reply
      2. Caroline*

        I don’t think anyone should have to buy or wear things they don’t want to, but much like having to buy corporate wear, a 3-pack of those very soft, non-wire, ”sleep” bras (or a maternity soft cup is an option – those are actually quite effective), would solve this to the extent that they couldn’t claim she wasn’t wearing a bra, and the discomfort to her would be minimised.

        Reply
        1. Candi*

          I wouldn’t buy the maternity bras -those were stupid expensive back at the beginning of the 21st century.

          I’d recommend Wingslove or another brand with a similar style.

          Reply
        2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          I buy those cheap, soft cup, cotton/spandex sports/sleep bras (Fruit of the Loom Women’s Built Up Tank Style Sports Bra Value Pack – a 6 pack costs around $22 on Amazon.) I have big boobs, but don’t like to “enhance” my size, or even emphasize it. They do the job of reducing underboob sweat and reducing motion and apparent size.

          I’ve known women and AFABs that don’t wear bras. If they are around my size they flop around, try to crawl out of the armholes on their short sleeve shirts, and often end up pointing prominent nipples in two different directions. I see that, and all I can do is wonder how they manage the sweat under the boobs (that for me is there even in cold weather.)

          Reply
          1. Candi*

            Antiperspirant? I stopped doing using antiperspirant in the chest area because I kept getting whiteheads, and they were worse than the sweat.

            Reply
    5. MK*

      You haven’t noticed because most women wear bras, or they wear something else that supports and confines their breasts, or their breasts are small. A person with large breasts wearing nothing under their shirt all day every day will be noticed at some point, and no, you don’t need to be staring at their chest.

      Reply
      1. PoolLounger*

        Eh, it depends on what they’re wearing. I have large breasts and wear an undershirt, shirt, and sweater/cardigan at work. My chest doesn’t look any different from any of the other larger women I work with, especially the older ones! I think most of them wear bras, just not underwires or anything with padding. But, I’m one of those people who don’t care if my breasts are moving around or not—as long as they’re covered I don’t think visibility having a chest is obscene.

        Reply
        1. Emma*

          It might not be noticeable if you and your colleagues are standing in a line, but above a certain size the movement is really noticeable, for most people, as soon as someone starts moving around the workplace, picking up or carrying things, reaching for items etc. That’s fine, of course, no-one should be required to wear a bra – but there’s often little you can do to make it not noticeable.

          Reply
        2. Green great dragon*

          If OP was wearing clothes that disguised the fact she wasn’t wearing a bra then Alison wouldn’t have got the letter, and if OP had asked what options she had other than a bra it would have been a different answer. I think it’s reasonable to assume that it’s pretty obvious OP isn’t wearing a bra, and she doesn’t want to change that.

          Reply
          1. Citra*

            YES. I don’t understand all the debate about whether or not it’s obvious when women don’t wear bras or if men (who IME generally wear undershirts to prevent nipples or chest hair showing through their button-down shirts; women are not asked to wear ties, either, which men routinely are) are asked to wear bras. The fact that the LW has repeatedly been told she needs to wear a bra means that it’s very obvious to everyone that she isn’t wearing one, probably because not only is there visible movement, but because there are obvious nipples.

            I am a small-busted woman who is very uncomfortable without a bra and sleeps in a bra, but my mother is large-breasted and often went without at home (and still does). It is /very/ obvious when she isn’t wearing one, and my noticing that does not mean I’m creepy, or staring at my mother’s breasts, or somehow sexualizing my own mother. I notice because any human with eyes would notice (eyes are involuntarily drawn to movement, too; you don’t have to be actively looking to notice). It doesn’t /bother/ me, because again it’s my mom at home, but it’s still obvious, and in a professional or work environment it would still be obvious and look sloppy–which is probably the manager’s main point, along with a side of possible sexual harassment caused by the OP refusing to stop making her co-workers and/or clients uncomfortable with her swinging breasts and noticeable nipples. Her co-workers and/or clients should not be forced to see her secondary sex characteristics moving around and nipples poking at her shirt.

            If a man was going commando at work and things were obviously shifting, bouncing, and moving around under his trousers, he would certainly be told to wear underwear. This really isn’t that different, and “Men aren’t asked to wear bras” is a red herring. LW is making people uncomfortable (and probably looks sloppy and unprofessional), and is now fighting to be allowed to continue making people uncomfortable.

            There are lots of soft, comfortable bras for large-breasted women these days, even outside of sports bras. It’s not all underwires anymore, at all. LW could maybe even just buy a few of those shaper-type tanks that will help hold everything in place, and wear those under her work clothes.

            Reply
            1. Rebecca*

              The OP is customer facing, which is probably why this is coming up. If they’re something like, say, a bank manager, it makes sense that their clothing isn’t considered professional. It isn’t because of the breasts themselves, it’s simply that their look is unpolished.

              The closest male equivalent I can think of would be a man wearing pants that exposes the top inch or two of their boxers being told to wear a belt because people can see when they’re sitting in a chair or whatever.

              So many comments are framing it in the context of gender, but that isn’t necessarily the case. Only OP’s own color commentary suggests that it is. For all we know, the conversation was respectful and they enforce rigid professional dress codes for men just as frequently. I imagine it likely was respectful, because I suspect OP would have pointed that out if it wasn’t.

              I just don’t like the jump to “must be a bunch of misogynists”, because that isn’t necessarily the case. It may just be generally unprofessional in their workplace.

              You also made a very salient point: OP is clearly making several coworkers uncomfortable. We have no way of knowing the context of that. They may very well be misogynistic jerks, and there’s no reason to placate them. But they also may be coming from a place of something like “my client was upset that you showed up in court with a low cut shirt and no bra”, in which case they have a valid argument.

              Reply
              1. Rowerrabbit*

                The employers could be acting completely ridiculously or maybe the breasts are swinging so much they are knocking people in the face and it’s a safety issue (sorry now I am laughing a lot at this picture) but there isn’t enough understanding of what is happening to know for sure.

                Reply
              2. Random Dice*

                My high school girl’s basketball team had a regular guest coach who was in his 20s, and wore very loose shorts and no underwear, and his member was startlingly long and floppy. It was mortifying for us.

                None of the adults said anything to this young man about putting on underwear around teenaged girls.

                Reply
                1. Citra*

                  Were the adults all around to see this? Did any of you say anything to an adult about it? Or are you saying this one story about an unprofessional young gym teacher means that no adult ever would ask a man to stop letting his ween flop around in a professional office with dress code rules beyond “gym shoes and shorts?” I am genuinely horrified that that happened, and it’s gross that anyone expects teen girls to accept being exposed to such things, but it doesn’t mean my point is invalid or that a man could walk around an office with his parts flopping around and no one would say anything.

                  Also, your story only proves my point that having parts in the “bathing suit areas” of the body flopping around makes people uncomfortable, and either is or feels a lot like sexual harassment.

                  Oh, and Gunther on Friends asked Phoebe’s boyfriend to “put the mouse back in the house,” so people do ask men to stop dressing inappropriately. See, I can come up with a lone example, too, and claim that makes some kind of point.

              3. Avril Ludgateaux*

                For all we know, the conversation was respectful and they enforce rigid professional dress codes for men just as frequently.

                But on undergarments? Or, lack thereof? I’ve seen people of both sexes reprimanded for having visible undergarments. I have never seen a man or otherwise male-presenting individual reprimanded for lack of underwear.

                Reply
            2. This Charming Woman*

              There really aren’t a ton of comfortable, non-underwire bras for large-busted women these days, or at least not for me. I’m a 40GG (UK), and I’ve spent a lot of time buying and returning bras. So far the most comfortable bra I’ve found is underwire, but it’s way more comfortable to not wear one at all. I put up with it for work and other social events, but it pisses me off that I’m expected to wear one.

              Reply
            3. Em*

              Seconded. I don’t like suiting up in my corporate uniform, I strongly dislike having to wear shoes all day at work, and I find it irritating when I need to spend money on clothes that I most likely won’t wear outside of the office. I am also braless in 95% of my personal life, but I have my work bras or undershirts which are soft and as comfortable as they can be. I am actually impressed that OP feels comfortable going to work with just one layer over large breasts- even as a small breasted person I would be in a perma hunch with my arms crossed constantly to avoid people noticing. I feel like OP is reacting to this as if she was told to wear a full face of makeup or reprimanded for not having styled hair or high heeled shoes, but this is not that. I feel for her because it’s probably incredibly embarrassing, but I don’t think her response is going to get her anywhere good.

              Reply
            4. Ori*

              Uh, no. OP having body parts isn’t sloppy, and the fact that you’re framing it like that is weird.

              Also, I have never encountered a story of a man being asked to wear underwear, but I have, in my professional office career, encountered a bunch of men whose nipples were visible in a cold office. Somehow we all recovered from the shock and horror, and no one felt sexually harassed because it’s not sexual harassment to (gasp) have a body covered by clothing. Hell, I have full underwire bras that will still sometimes show the outline of my nipples because they’re relatively lightweight and soft.

              Your framing of OP somehow attacking other people with her “swinging breasts” is really, really strange to me. You claim you aren’t focused on other people’s breasts, but I’m not sure if that’s believable given the amount of headspace and offensive significance you seem to devote to them.

              Reply
          2. Meep*

            I really hope OP looks at the more comfortable lacy bra options that exist now. Many feel like you aren’t wearing one! Though I am part of the itty bitty titty committee so I may be biased.

            Reply
            1. Bookmark*

              Yeah… as a large-breasted person I will say that while the variety available in larger sizes has certainly increased in the last decade or so, there is still far less variety than there is in smaller sizes. And there are still a lot of designs that are really made for small chests that haven’t been sized up particularly well. In general, it’s not really possible to feel like you aren’t wearing a bra when you have a larger chest, just based on weight and position and stuff. I think that’s part of why you see so much divergence on here between larger chested women about whether they love or hate bras— it feels very different to be wearing one vs not.

              Reply
              1. Candi*

                I’m in the hate them but have to wear them category of large.

                I remember being so, so happy when I could find larger bras in colors other than flesh and white. Especially black to wear under black tops, although the burgundy is nice as well..

                Reply
                1. Candi*

                  Edit: Maybe I should phrase that as Caucasian flesh color? My apologies for not thinking things through. :(

                  (Goes off to read subconscious a lecture about bias.)

                2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

                  That tan that is supposed to be “flesh” tone doesn’t match anyone’s skin IMO. I wish they would call it “tan” in ads, not “flesh”, because it’s not. (I’m white, and it’s darker than my skin. Other folks it’s either lighter or an off shade.)

                3. metadata minion*

                  @Curmudgeon — sure, it doesn’t really match anyone’s skin, but when put on someone like me, it’s at least obviously supposed to be a sad least-common-denominator attempt at my skin color. On a black person, it is nowhere close.

            2. Ace in the Hole*

              “Many feel like you aren’t wearing one!”

              There is no such thing as a bra that feels like not wearing a bra. I say this as someone who prefers bras and who doesn’t have a particularly large bust. Some bras are more comfortable or less restrictive than others, but they’re always a noticeable presence. Even the softest stretchiest bralette is still a layer of skintight fabric. Lace is even more noticeable because of the texture.

              Reply
        3. MK*

          I would count an undershirt as “something that supports and confines”, especially if it’s a fitted garment in a substantialmaterial (and not, say, a loose silky one. And of course the more layers you wear the less it shows. The OP says she is only wearing a shirt or blouse, so I am guessing it is obvious.

          Reply
          1. H2*

            Totally agree.

            I just think there’s a lot of context missing. I’m a college professor and the idea of teaching a class with no bra (walking around, writing on the board!) in front of fifty twenty year olds is honestly the stuff of nightmares. And it would be truly a professional problem—it would be distracting for the students. I can similarly see an issue with, for example, making presentations to clients or a lot of other examples. But if the issue is that Fred doesn’t like it as you walk from your desk to the copier, that’s different.

            But more to the point, it’s obviously noticeable and not obviously illegal for a bra to be a requirement. So I think the LW needs to comply or find a new job.

            Reply
          2. I am Emily's failing memory*

            Agreed, I haven’t worn a proper bra since roughly 2016, but I have also not gone to work with only a single layer on my top half in that time either. My goal is generally to dress in a way that doesn’t make people think about the way I’m dressing, which means avoiding visible nipples and wearing an extra layer or two – whether it’s a thick cami, a bralette, a built-in shelf bra, or a cardigan or pullover sweater – that keeps my breasts from swinging when I’m hurrying to catch the elevator or dangling out away from my body if I need to lean forward.

            I have these seamless bras I love that are shaped kind of like a sporty bathing suit top (i.e. wide band and wide over the shoulders, all one piece of fabric), have some stretch with moderate resistance around the band area to keep it snugly in place, and then have 4-way stretch and 100% give for the cup area – it’s like a zero-gravity chair, or one of those toys where you can press your hand into the back of a box of small metal rods and it creates a perfect mold of your hand out the front – whatever size and shape breast you press into the cup area, the fabric will conform to that shape exactly. They’re my favorite comfy bras for lounging around the house because the main thing they do is prevent chafing underneath. But they don’t hide my nipples or contain or shape my breasts at all (and if I lean forward in one you can see two distinct breasts dangling down, not a single low mound against my chest), so I know when I wear one of those to work I need to also wear a very thick top or a sweater that I don’t take off.

            Reply
            1. Candi*

              That sounds lovely, and possibly useful for when I start working in IT. Any brands you recommend?

              (I have to pass one. more. class. and I graduate! Linux/Unix class.)

              Reply
    6. Stitch*

      It’s quite rare to see a large chested woman not wearing a bra in a professional setting. LW1 can choose this to make their hill to die on, but the whole “cultural norms should change!” Argument does diddly for LW1 right now. It’s a cultural norm, there’s on point legal precedent. It’s just not going to go well for LW1. You have to be realistic about the outcomes right here, right now.

      Like the whole “get a lawyer and fight precedent” thing, you’d have to have large amounts of money because you’d be talking about challenging something up the ladder beyond the trial level. That’s super expensive. Even if LW found some kind of legal aid org willing to pay for it, you’d be talking potentially years for a case to work its way up, with a pretty good chance of no success. And what’s LW going to do for money in the meantime? There’s a reason people who face even blatant legal discrimination often don’t bother to sue. It’s expensive and difficult.

      Reply
      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        “And what’s LW going to do for money in the meantime?”

        If she wears the bra, they can’t fire her for suing them.

        Reply
        1. MK*

          So, the OP wears the bra and sues the company. She now has to go to work every day with people who will think her as an enemy and, even if they don’t retaliate against her in subtle, non-reportable ways, have an incredibly unpleasant work environment, all this wearing uncomfortable (to her) underwear, till the lawsuit, which she may well not win, is settled, which won’t happen in a few weeks or maybe even months. Sounds fun.

          Reply
          1. Splendid Colors*

            I suspect many months to a few years.

            Courts are so badly bogged down, I probably couldn’t get a court date in Small Claims over something like a client refusing to pay an invoice in less than 6 months, maybe a year.

            And that’s assuming OP finds a lawyer willing to take the case.

            Reply
      2. Another health care worker*

        I mean, this is all true, but it goes for anyone who is considering suing for workplace discrimination and trying to challenge discriminatory laws. There’s no reason LW has to do it, but there’s no reason she has to not do it either. Frankly, from her letter, she sounds like the kind of person who might be up for it! If so, I would thank her on behalf of all people with breasts who don’t want their bosses examining them in any way. Yes, I see all the comments above saying that it’s obvious. I agree, it is. I still want to wear a bra because I decided to, not because my boss said so.

        I believe in these kinds of cases, there are lawyers who only take payment out of an eventual settlement, for exactly the reasons you name: no typical working person could ever afford to sue for discrimination otherwise.

        Reply
        1. Stitch*

          It’s called contingency and a lawyer won’t take a case in contingency that they aren’t likely to win. Because of precedent issues here, a lawyer is unlikely to take this case.

          Reply
            1. Stitch*

              She can try. She’s extremely unlikely to find one who will take the case on contingency. Law firms are businesses they have to make decisions based on whether they’re likely to make money.

              Reply
                1. Stitch*

                  People have to pay their rent. You have to be honest with people. You can get fired and there’s a good chance there’s no legal recourse. You can’t build up fantasies where everything is going to go well for someone when chances are it just won’t. This is an employment forum. You don’t do LWs any favor recommending courses of action where they could lose their jobs.

                2. Another health care worker*

                  The advice at issue was AAM saying OP can *look for a lawyer who will take this case.* This is not life-ruining stuff.

                3. Willow Pillow*

                  Having been in those circumstances for ADA issues (clear-cut discrimination based on a disability), I agree with Stitch. The burden is placed on the complainant in these cases, and it’s a significant burden. I also saw an employment lawyer who was willing to take my case but I was told that it would likely take years to resolve without a lot of return.

                  I appreciate the people who fight these things, I really do, but there are plenty of reasons not to do so and my health is a massive reason.

                4. Candi*

                  Yeah, Willow Pillow. Sometimes all you can do is file a complaint with the appropriate government agency and move on with what you can do that is likely to be helpful or successful. :(

              1. Lisa Simpson*

                Law is also a field with conservative dress standards, so finding a lawyer who’s sympathetic to the cause is going to be tough.

                Reply
                1. Ashley*

                  I think finding for most of the country would be easy. There are many attorneys who fight for LGTQ+ rights and this is a issue that would impact someone who identifies as non-binary. Filing the case in a court system that is likely to side with the woman in question will be the difficult battle. (And the person needs an income plan B while this works its long long way through the court system.)

                2. Stitch*

                  LW can’t pick a court system here. Venue is determined by geographic location and subject matter jurisdiction (if you’re talking state versus federal).

                  OP can try to find a legal aid org, but frankly is OP even the best test case? Those cases are picked very very carefully.

                3. Splendid Colors*

                  In case this fails to nest properly, I agree with Stitch that it’s reeeallly unlikely a legal aid org would pick OP for a test case for dress code discrimination because OP’s bosses want her to follow a standard cultural norm. There are plenty of candidates for test cases whose bosses are being unreasonably prudish, or on the other end of the spectrum, expecting them to be overly sexualized at work. Or test cases for religious discrimination against women who want to wear headscarves at work, or ADA claims for women whose disability means they can’t wear high heels.

                  I think it would be different if OP were non-binary AFAB and wore a binder under masculine clothing but their boss wanted them to wear a pushup bra and feminine suits.

          1. Another health care worker*

            Laws are not labeled discriminatory at the outset–it happens because someone successfully challenges them as discriminatory! All discrimination starts out as social and cultural norms, until people start criticizing it and it becomes less normative!

            Reply
      3. RussianInTexas*

        I agree.
        All this is great in theory, but in practice, right now, the LW has the options: comply, comply and try to sue, or be fired and try to sue. And mostly likely lose.

        Reply
    7. Ellis Bell*

      It can be very noticeable, and obvious to the point that lying would be silly, but that look is something a lot of large breasted women avoid. I’m busty, (not the highest end of the scale but above what most shops will sell) and I have gotten by with a supportive cami; but I wouldn’t have been able to wear anything thin (nipples) or been able to move a lot (highly obvious jiggling), if I ran or danced. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with female nipples, or a lot of jiggling, but I’m not comfortable with it. It depends on how active OPs job is, how thick or thin her clothes are and what else is under them. There is also a lot of middle ground between wearing a thin shirt and nothing else, and wearing a fully wired up bra, so OP has some options aside from those two.

      Reply
      1. Candi*

        Shops not carrying my size is why I shop online. Grump.

        I’m wondering if OP wears a suit jacket at all, since apparently their role is customer-facing. The heavier material might make various movements less obvious than just a blouse or shirt.

        (Doesn’t have to be a 2 or 3 piece suit -just a jacket and pants/skirt where the colors/shades match.)

        Reply
    8. Sadie*

      I have never noticed if a person is wearing a bra or not, but I believe people who say it’s noticeable. So I suppose my question is, so it’s noticeable. So what? Why should anyone care? That’s what’s gross about it.

      Reply
      1. ceiswyn*

        Why should anyone care about anyone’s clothing choices?

        But we live in a world where, for whatever reason, noticeable bralessness is considered even less professional than comical t-shirts. Of course one of these dress codes overlaps with issues of sexualisation of female bodies, misogyny, physical comfort etc; but that doesn’t *necessarily* mean that someone who feels strongly about bra-wearing is a creep or a misogynist.

        Reply
          1. Roland*

            I mean, why should anyone care about wearing holey pyjamas to work? It’s not relevant to this conversation because “professional” dress codes exist whether or not you or I agree that they should.

            Reply
          2. ceiswyn*

            Is it ‘gross’ if someone is told not to wear a faded band t-shirt to their bank job? Or is it just a violation of professional norms?

            Reply
      2. blam*

        Agreed – it is gross. I know tons of men who wear a thin cotton shirt with nothing underneath, and the shape of their chest, including nipple, is super visible. (I don’t have a problem with this, by the way.) There are many ways flesh can move, especially as we age. But this is the one thing we clamp down on, no pun intended. It’s misogynistic as hell.

        Unfortunately LW may be forced to choose between going braless and keeping her job.

        Reply
        1. Candi*

          I’ve worked in places where that wasn’t allowed, and undershirts were specified in the dress code if the shirt wasn’t thick enough. (For men and women -I wore a lot of male t-shirts because women’s are bloody expensive.)

          Reply
    9. blam*

      I think the vast majority of people with large breasts do wear a bra of some sort, and that’s why you haven’t noticed. I’m a 40H and the difference between bra/no bra on me is extremely obvious. You really couldn’t miss it, and you wouldn’t have to be staring.

      Reply
      1. blam*

        (I know it’s not meant this way, but ‘how would you even know’ always comes up on letters about bra wearing in the office, and it always has a slight ring of ‘surely no one is THAT large/pendulous/jiggly/whatever’. Just…please bear in mind that some of are are? And that even among large breasted women there is a ton of variation? I always come away from these comment sections feeling a little like my experience of breast ownership would be considered actually freakish by a lot of women, and it doesn’t feel great.)

        Reply
        1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          I mean, I’m not large or pendulous or jiggly and it’s still extremely noticeable when I don’t wear a bra.

          Reply
          1. Random Dice*

            My boobs are C cup, and it’s still really obvious when I’m sans support of some kind.

            And as folks mention, under boob sweat.

            Reply
        2. kitryan*

          I feel like there’s a range of noticablilty from no one would be able to tell to everyone would and a similar range of observers, where some people would pick up on even non-obvious situations and some people just don’t notice anything, however obvious, so the comments sees all kinds of match ups of observer and observed generalizing those experiences all over the place. And it’s not like anyone’s getting graded on this – at the end of the day, people don’t get scored on how many braless people they noticed or how many people didn’t notice their bralessness, so there’s no way to confirm how obvious or oblivious people are.
          Personally, I don’t feel comfy in public with nothing for support but have moved to wearing mostly light to medium support sports bras. I also had a co worker who never wore a bra, it was immediately (to me) obvious, but that was her business, as far as I was concerned, my only job relating to this was to not notice to the best of my ability (the slight movement was distracting some times but that’s my issue, just as if she’d been wearing a clinky necklace or something like that).

          Reply
        3. Siege*

          On top of your excellent point, there’s also the fact that it’s 1000% a moot point because someone has in fact noticed. It’s great that a bunch of people in the comments aren’t OP’s manager, but it’s not helping anything at all to stand around discussing whether noticing makes you a creep or a tool of the patriarchy or an agent of the Bra Industrial Complex or if not noticing is The Only True Feminism, because something about OP’s situation is such that :
          A) people have noticed;
          B) her manager has told her to correct the issue;
          C) OP has refused to do so and:
          C1) provided no context for why she refuses or
          C2) clarified nothing about why this is an actual need. But:
          D) she has written to an advice blog to get permission to not do something she doesn’t want to do that her employer is making a (legally-protected) condition of trouble-free employment.

          So we can debate women’s bodies all day but literally no one’s reported experience thus far seems to be as incredibly hostile as OP’s approach appears (no bra is one thing; no bra and only one layer on top is quite another; rules-lawyering that men aren’t required to wear bras so women shouldn’t be required to either (and you’re not required to wear a tie, sister) elevates the whole thing to another level) so noticing bralessness is basically the least of the problem, but the debate has the strong chance of othering people, to no benefit.

          Reply
          1. ThatMarketingChick*

            This is one of the most clear, concise, and on-point comments so far. We can all share how we feel about the tyranny – or liberation – that bras provide, but that does not resolve the LW’s issue.

            Offering up justification like “men aren’t required to wear bras!” is so nonsensical that it erodes the very tiny hill you seem intent to die on.

            Reply
            1. Splendid Colors*

              I haven’t worked in an office since 2000, but if my boss required me to wear makeup as part of the dress code, I might die on that hill (or look for a different job). I used to wear makeup at work because that is what women do to look professional. (And wear nylons, with heels that wrecked my arches.) I am autistic and I can’t stand the feeling of makeup on my face, powder and eye makeup getting into my eyes, mascara making my lashes stick to each other a bit every time I blink, etc. It’s irritating enough that it lowers my threshold for other annoyances and makes it more likely I will do or say something FAR more unprofessional than it is to have freckles and dark circles under my eyes.

              Reply
        4. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          I’m a 44 G, and I am pendulous and jiggly without a boob harness (bra.) I wear cotton/spandex sports bras that contain the motion and absorb sweat. I even wear it at home, for my comfort! I’m big, but not a freak, and I agree with you that it doesn’t feel good when people imply that ‘no one really is that large/pendulous/jiggly/whatever’. Because yes, I’m enby, and stuck with these large boobs that I can’t afford to get reduced/eliminated, and it does not do good things to my head to be considered an obviously fem person with boobs that are too big.

          Reply
        5. Ace in the Hole*

          I agree. Plus it just seems so out of touch, like they don’t realize the overwhelming majority of people wear a bra and the few who don’t usually take pains to dress in a way that hides it.

          Reply
    10. Melissa*

      “I am wearing a bra” is hilarious and brilliant. Or, you could buy one of those real flimsy, lacy lingerie ones that offers no support, doesn’t change your silhouette at all, and wear that. So you wouldn’t be lying when you said “I am wearing one.” Is your boss then going to try to regulate what type of bra you wear?

      Reply
      1. MK*

        These bras may not offer much support, but they absolutely do change your silhouette and prevent movement. It’s not the same as going braless. And even if it was, with an employer like the OP’s, who is willing to make this an issue, what makes you think they won’t continue to object? “Wear a bra” in this context means “conform to our notion of a professional appearance”, not about the specific garment.

        Reply
        1. GingerNP*

          But following the letter of the demand by buying something soft, comfortable, and likely about 1/3 of the price of a heavily structured bra, means that LW1 would be able to show a bra strap indicating that she is, indeed, wearing a bra as they instructed.

          Reply
          1. Simon Kershaw*

            I think a lot of commenters here have spent too much time reading “maliciously complying” stories online, and forget that this is a workplace advice blog.

            Escalating a fight with your boss is never a smart idea, even if you are semantically correct.

            Reply
            1. Candi*

              The successful maliciously complying stories are successful because they are precisely within the rules as written -it’s just “precisely within the rules” in a way that is to the boss’/other donkey’s detriment. Personal favorite is “concentrate on your own work!” orders, when the author has been doing a ton of things outside their official job to help the business run smoother.

              The “use this type of bra” is playing with the rule rather than precisely complying with it in a way that hurts the rule-maker.

              Reply
          2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

            A soft, comfortable and inexpensive bra is likely to accomplish want the boss wants – less noticeable boob movement.

            Reply
    11. Wintermute*

      I really don’t think challenging why they are talking about the issue which is A PROBLEM FOR THEM is going to be the winning strategy you think.

      It’s quite likely to simply result in a response of “we are discussing them because you have made this an issue and we are getting complaints, if you did not want your body discussed then you shouldn’t have made a point of violating the dress code.”

      It’s also quite likely to simply result in being fired on the spot for insubordination, since it’s pretty clear the LW is already on thin ice here.

      Reply
    12. Oblivious*

      I agree in that I don’t think I would notice this. How would you know for sure unless you were playing some crazy game where you were asked to guess if a woman was wearing and bra or not and then the solution was revealed to you?

      I am a woman who will almost always wear a bra for my comfort, but won’t wear really uncomfortable bras. So I wear some not very supportive, saggy bras around the house. And some somewhat supportive, but no sexy shape making sports bras pretty much almost all the rest of the time, and my boobs still sag. I do not know how they can know, FOR SURE, but folks can make a guess.

      In this case they are guessing right because based on what the LW saying she’s a large breasted woman, and it must be obvious to people who notice such things.

      Reply
    13. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      This is what I’m getting stuck on too. They cannot prove that OP isn’t wearing a bra. It is in fact possible to be wearing an ill-fitting bra and look like you don’t, or worse (if you’re spilling out of the bra, for example – the bra is on as required, but it is not the look OP’s boss is after.) I don’t know that there is any substance to their threat to send OP home to put on a bra if they cannot prove OP isn’t wearing one?

      I wear a G/H cup now, but my size has fluctuated over the years because of life stuff like breastfeeding, weaning, weight loss, weight gain etc, as did my financial ability to buy a well-fitting bra, so I’ve had all the experiences. In my long career, I have noticed that a coworker wasn’t wearing a bra exactly once – she was also wearing a semi-sheer top that morning. Other than that, just like you, I have never noticed or paid attention.

      Reply
      1. Observer*

        They cannot prove that OP isn’t wearing a bra.

        They don’t need to. Because if the argument is “I am wearing one but it’s so bad you can’t tell the difference” the reasonable response is that she needs to find a better bra.

        The fact that the dress code does not explicitly state “Bra required” supports that. Because their argument is about how the OP looks. And if she looks like she’s not wearing a bra, then that’s the issue that needs to change.

        I don’t know that there is any substance to their threat to send OP home to put on a bra if they cannot prove OP isn’t wearing one?

        Of course there is. They can send her home till she changes SOMETHING about the way she is dressed to that she looks like she is wearing a bra.

        Reply
        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          They don’t need to. Because if the argument is “I am wearing one but it’s so bad you can’t tell the difference” the reasonable response is that she needs to find a better bra.

          The fact that the dress code does not explicitly state “Bra required” supports that. Because their argument is about how the OP looks. And if she looks like she’s not wearing a bra, then that’s the issue that needs to change.

          Good bras in large sizes are hard to find and are expensive as heck. (Cheaper now thanks to Amazon, but there was a time when my bra was the most expensive thing I had on at any given time, and yes I was going into the office wearing business casual clothes that met the dress code.)

          And I bet OP’s company dress code has something like “no visible underwear” (mine did), so if she puts a bra on and it’s showing, she’s up a creek again.

          I am not saying that this is a fight OP can win, I don’t think she can at this point. I’m saying that this requirement sucks and is discriminatory and classist in a lot of ways (are they paying her enough to buy a bra in a large size that’d be supportive yet not visible?)

          Reply
          1. Observer*

            Good bras in large sizes are hard to find and are expensive as heck. (Cheaper now thanks to Amazon, but there was a time when my bra was the most expensive thing I had on at any given time, and yes I was going into the office wearing business casual clothes that met the dress code.)

            Which is not really relevant to the issue at hand. Whether or not the bra creates an undue burden is a reasonable discussion. But you don’t need to prove whether or not someone is wearing a bra or not to enforce the rule about appearance. And you also don’t need to get into that in order to have the conversation about the cost.

            Reply
            1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

              All valid points if we are still talking about no bra at all vs any bra. My response was to your “Because if the argument is “I am wearing one but it’s so bad you can’t tell the difference” the reasonable response is that she needs to find a better bra.” Which, i agree, is not the issue at hand.

              Reply
    14. RussianInTexas*

      Really? I have large breasts and you can ABSOLUTELY say when I am not wearing a bra, including under an outdoor jacket.
      They move significantly more, and they are not where you expect them to be, as in much lower. Also, a lot of them on the side.

      Reply
    15. joan*

      There’s something women sometimes aren’t aware of: When you pose in front of a mirror, trying on clothes or checking how you look, you usually don’t look in a 3-way mirror — including from the BACK. And, when you move; it’s hard to move and walk while looking in the mirrors.
      But others can see your body MOVING as you walk. And if you’re busty but braless, it may be a lot more movement than you realize. Or cleavage may “creep” in more than you expect.
      If you’ve watched lots of video of you at work you may know you never have an issue like this, but if you haven’t, maybe you do. I’ve seen a very large person at work wearing skintight, thin stretchpants that revealed her body — her crack and creases. Cringey.
      If you see video of you walking around, picking things up from the floor, etc., will you see more than you expected? Is that blouse more sheer than you realize? Do you know to wear a NUDE bra under a white blouse? Not a white one?

      Reply
      1. Candi*

        I felt bad for one woman I read about.

        The short version is the transparency of the peach-colored blouse was different under store and home lights then the new LED lights at the office.

        Reply
        1. Splendid Colors*

          I had a satin bra that covered everything, and a red textured blouse that looked like it covered my bra in regular lighting–but in a flash photo, that satin bra reflected back at the camera like I was wearing a transparent chiffon top.

          Reply
  4. Turanga Leela*

    OP #1: If you are inclined to make trouble, you could politely ask your supervisor to lay out the specifications for “a bra.” Does it need to have an underwire? Would a bralette be acceptable? How about a camisole with a shelf bra?

    You have to hit EXACTLY the right note with these questions or they will get you fired on the spot, but–again, if you want to make trouble–asking for details can highlight the arbitrariness and lack of actual specificity in the policy.

    Reply
    1. Electric sheep*

      This is likely to burn up quite a bit of capital for the LW and tbh I don’t think it will particularly change what the boss is asking her to do. She has probably already tested their patience by not doing what they asked her to while at the same time not having a conversation with the boss to explain why she wasn’t, so the boss probably already feels ignored and frustrated, which is a bad start to the convo.

      Reply
      1. What's in a name?*

        She has already burned a lot of capital on this. The whole “men don’t have to wear a bra” makes her seem out of touch.

        Reply
        1. L-squared*

          Right. This just seemed like such a reach to me.

          As Alison said, many places have differences in what they consider professional for men and women. It’s changing, but its not there yet. I’ve worked places like Alison mentioned where men’s hair couldn’t be longer than a certain length, or weren’t allowed to wear nail polish. I’ve even been places where women could wear sandals but men couldn’t . This just seemed like an extreme thing she was trying to prove, which of course wasn’t going to go anywhere

          Reply
        2. High Score!*

          That’s not out of touch. It’s ridiculous that in the year 2022 that we are so fixated on women’s bodies that they’re attire must be policed. It’s BS. “Social norms” are a way of oppressing women. Segregation used to be a social norm too. She called them out and she’s right.

          Reply
          1. Wintermute*

            it’s a part of the body with a long history of being considered sexualized. you cannot ignore that cultural context.

            It’s like complaining it’s sex discrimination if your work asked you to zip up your fly because your underwear were showing, it’s not going to be the compelling argument you really think it will be.

            Reply
            1. H2*

              Yeah, my husband came home from TJ maxx once with a pair of flat-front pants in a very thin material, and I made him take them back. He couldn’t tell because standing still and looking down or in a mirror they were fine, but some movements and lights just weren’t great. I think that’s a better equivalency and I think that no one would argue that seeing the outline through pants isn’t an issue.

              Reply
              1. Wintermute*

                agreed 100% it’s a very apt analogy. Clothing exists for many reasons, some are not so great (class signifiers) and some are quite necessary to society (warmth, protection from elements and hazards), and some aren’t a matter of life and death but are a matter of the comfort of others. Concealing intimate parts of the body is part of that. If your clothes aren’t doing that, it’s a problem.

                Reply
                1. Anon Fed Employee*

                  Yeah – they way it’s out in the dress code for my job (which is a federal job) is: regardless of your gender we do not want to know about your underwear (or lack thereof) preferences. If you make us aware of them you will be in violation.

                  Personally I’m speculating that the OP may be either very well endowed or have prominent nipples, which their clothing isn’t thick or structured enough to make the lack of a bra obvious.

            2. High Score!*

              No it’s not the same. Men and women’s dress codes should be exactly the same. Men sexualizing non sexual parts of a woman is a problem and that’s what need addressed.

              Reply
                1. High Score!*

                  No they’re not. Those breasts are there to feed babies. Now men’s breasts have absolutely no purpose so men should be the ones who have to cover them. I don’t want to see man nipples sticking out thru their shirts. Have some decency – wear pasties – you ho men!

                2. Hlao-roo*

                  Facial hair and Adam’s apples are also secondary sexual characteristics. Are they also inherently sexual?

                3. Nina*

                  By that logic, beards and Adam’s apples are also sexual and men should cover their throats. No? No.

                4. Candi*

                  “Are X and Y sexual” is ignoring the traditional context that comes from many, many, many cultures throughout history and from all over the world. The vast majority sexualize breasts.

                  Note that there have been artifacts unearthed on Crete that indicate in that day it was perfectly fine to show breasts with some outfits -that doesn’t mean breasts weren’t sexualized in their culture, it means that covering or exposing them wasn’t part of that sexualization.

                  In the modern day, breasts are still considered a secondary sexual body part. While we can work to change that, we still have to deal with the reality of today.

                5. Dr Sarah*

                  @Appletini (out of nesting):

                  ‘How do you feel about public breastfeeding, then?’

                  That it shouldn’t be done while dealing with others in a professional capacity in a workplace, and hence is irrelevant to the debate of what norms should exist in such a situation.

              1. Common Taters on the Ax*

                I don’t think most of the differences in dress codes can be traced to men sexualizing nonsexual parts of women’s bodies. So while it is true that that’s problem, solving the problem wouldn’t leave us with a single dress code. There are a lot more things that only we can wear and still look “professional” (skirts, sleeveless tops, etc) than there are for men. In fact, for men, obvious bralessness is pretty much it!

                Reply
            3. Big Breasted Bra Wearer (but commando!)*

              Wintermute, thanks for saying this. In our culture, women’s breasts are highly sexual. No amount of protesting or posturing is going to change that.

              I don’t want to see the male equivalent of camel toe in the workplace either.

              Working at home for the win yet again!

              Reply
          2. Another health care worker*

            +1. It’s not “out of touch,” though it may have been deliberately obtuse. She’s calling attention to their unfair policy, and to the fact that it isn’t written anywhere. I appreciate this, as someone who wouldn’t have the guts.

            Why isn’t the solution that everyone just get over their discomfort with how a woman’s body looks? Social norms can change, and some should.

            Reply
            1. Big Breasted Bra Wearer (but commando!)*

              Good luck with this. It isn’t discomfort with how a woman’s body looks, for heaven’s sake.

              Workplace professional dress norms have changed since I started in the 1970s. Pantyhose (what are those?) and heels are no longer required, pants are OK, matching suits not needed, definitely more casual in many places, not all. It has been an evolution. But wanting breasts totally free is different, it’s not like the long-needed acceptance of ethnic hair styles as professional which only discriminated against one racial group.

              I never wear panties at home, but I do when going out. Same for a bra. And I look forward to ripping it off as soon as I get home. I’m not looking, but I notice very droopy breasts, which can mean a non-supportive bra (I’ve had some), and not no bra at all. If someone is comfortable like that, more power to them, but I’m not employing them. We all compromise on something to work with other people, there’s no total freedom in the workplace for men or women.

              Reply
          3. Rex Libris*

            The immediate issue is that being right and remaining employed are two different things. On a philosophical level, of course she’s right. On a practical level, does she want to be fired, then possibly spend years and thousands of dollars fighting it in court?

            Reply
              1. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

                And it’s waste, not just spend, tens of thousands, because as laid out there’s pretty much zero chance she would win. As many other’s have noted, for better or worse there’s legal precedent for gender-based dress codes. And nothing in OP’s letter indicated she has officially requested accommodation (medical, religious, or any other kind).

                Reply
          4. Observer*

            It’s ridiculous that in the year 2022 that we are so fixated on women’s bodies that they’re attire must be policed. It’s BS

            Which is really not relevant here. There is no indication that men don’t have a dress code as well. EVERYONE’S attire is being “policed”.

            I mean if the OP wants to lose her job over this, she can do that. But she’s not going to win a lawsuit. And if her employer chooses to fight it, she might not even be able to collect unemployment.

            Not recognizing this IS out of touch.

            Reply
            1. lilsheba*

              ugh this ended up in the wrong place, I agree with the person who says this is out of touch and originally said this: “It’s ridiculous that in the year 2022 that we are so fixated on women’s bodies that they’re attire must be policed. It’s BS”

              Reply
                1. Appletini*

                  You also said above you wouldn’t employ someone who doesn’t wear a bra, so that figures into how much we should consider your opinion.

        3. Not teenage but still ninja turtle*

          Agreed. She’s already marked herself as a “problem employee.” Even if she conforms now, that’s going to be hard to shake.

          Reply
        4. iliketoknit*

          Agreed. Comparing to men not wearing a bra isn’t really the winning play here – it’d be like a man in a business formal environment complaining that they should only have to wear a tie if the women have to (or in another context, jock straps). Different attitudes to bodies generally understood as male and female are even enshrined in law, in that (in many states anyway, not all) men can walk around in public topless but women doing so could be arrested for indecency. Not saying this is fair or right, but it will have to change before the LW’s argument will help her.

          A more helpful comparison would likely be “you’re not telling the small breasted women they have to wear a bra,” but since it was noted that all the other women in the office wear bras, that’s foreclosed as well. Though I do suspect at least part of the “you need to wear a bra” direction is coming from the LW having large breasts, in the vein of recent news items about curvy women getting told their clothes are too sexually revealing when they’re not wearing anything different from other women.

          Reply
        5. Mockingjay*

          But let’s face it, bras are DAMNED uncomfortable, even the best fitting ones at times. I’m medium large (DD) and I can get away with a stretch cami for support most days (bless remote work), but I wear a bra in the office, simply because of the same reaction OP got.

          Fantasy Advice: Maybe a better argument for OP1 would be: “Fred has a jiggly beer belly that makes me uncomfortable. Can we make him wear a corset?”

          Real advice: OP1, you’re going to have wear something underneath. I’m sorry, I hate it for you, I hate the double standard for women’s bodies, and most of all, I HATE THAT A WOMAN’S JOB CAN BE HELD HOSTAGE BY A F*CKING UNDERGARMENT.
          Pick the simplest, most comfortable option to wear and make it clear to Supervisor that since you are complying with their directive, going forward you would appreciate it if your coworkers are directed to keep their minds off body parts and pay attention to the work you perform instead.

          Reply
        6. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          Yeah, bras are meant to shape and support your biggest secondary sexual characteristic. Arguing that folks without that secondary sexual characteristic should also have to wear them is ludicrous.

          Reply
          1. Sarah789*

            I completely agree with you. Just put on a darn bra, Lady! Is this really the hill you want to die on?

            I’m a large chested woman and I don’t want to see you swinging about either. It is a simple requirement. If you don’t like their rules then go work somewhere else.

            Reply
        7. Common Taters on the Ax*

          Agree with this. She’s in a worse place than she needed to be now. She’s unfortunately been argumentative when she didn’t have a good argument. And now everyone’s upset, obviously including her, so honestly I think it’s time to decide whether any bra of any description can be tolerable and if not, leave. Those are the terms of the job.

          Is it fair? As fair as any standard of professional dress is. There were days not so long ago when women had to wear hose (shudder) to be considered professionally dressed. And before we complain too much about how clothing standards oppress us, let’s not forget that there are still plenty of jobs where men have to wear ties. At least we’ve never been subjected to a mandatory choking device.

          Reply
          1. Big Breasted Bra Wearer (but commando!)*

            The only time I feel sorry for men is when I see them in those choking devices. I can’t stand crewneck tops, nothing against my neck! They also have to (typically) wear long pants and closed shoes in hot weather, Don’t envy them at all.

            Reply
        8. Courageous cat*

          Yeah, I’m with you on this one. Asking your male coworkers if they were told to is… making a point (and not necessarily an invalid one in a vacuum), but not really relevant to reality.

          Reply
    2. MK*

      Eh, why would that be making trouble for anyone but herself? The boss isn’t likely to be stumped by these questions anymore than they have been with OP’s “men aren’t required to wear bras” argument. And they may well come back with a detailed guide about what is acceptable with more strict requirements than they would otherwise set.

      Reply
      1. Anon Fed Employee*

        Part of what I like about the way our dress code phrases it:
        Regardless of your gender we do not want to know about your underwear (or lack thereof) preferences. If you make us aware of them you will be in violation.

        In this case the problem would have been making work aware (however it happened) about the lack of underwear – not the lack itself.

        Reply
    3. Allonge*

      Not quite sure how this would help – it’s a bit the “watch the world burn” approach.

      On the other hand, imagine getting a dress code with this level of detail! Quite a lot of women would not be wild about it, myself included. It does not solve OP’s problem, but creates issues for everyone else.

      Reply
    4. Drag0nfly*

      That’s a pointless time-waster though, because the boss simply has to say: “a bra is a garment you insert your breasts into to keep them from jiggling and bouncing, and doesn’t expose your nipples. And you’re not five, so you know that. Dress accordingly.”

      Forcing a boss to treat her like a dimwitted child is only going to burn capital, and she will gain nothing by it. It damages her credibility and diminishes trust in her judgment. And what does she gain?

      Reply
      1. alienor*

        Yeah, it does sort of have the air of asking for a definition of what constitutes “pants,” and then showing up in a pair of chaps and insisting that you are wearing pants because they have a waistband and belt and they cover your legs. I don’t think this is something the OP can get out of by rules-lawyering.

        Reply
        1. Professional Button Pusher*

          I world for a remote org with staff based all over the world, and this reminds me of some hilarious confusion among my UK-based co-workers about a dress code requiring “pants” for certain portions of a staff retreat. Pants = underpants (specifically, women’s panties) in the UK.

          Reply
    5. Ellis Bell*

      I think this might have worked in the first instance, but OP has been really defiant on a few occasions, based on the assumption that the law requires equal dress codes. Now she’s probably on her last chance, so she needs to either die on the hill, or make sure she at least looks like she’s wearing a bra. I think she might be able to discuss alternatives if she does so apologetically and sincerely saying she doesn’t have her size, or that a true bra hurts but that she’ll do her best to find appropriate support. I don’t think half measures and point making is going to fly though. Thank you for the term shelf bra! The description of that was driving me crazy.

      Reply
      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yeah, I wish OP had done a little more research before putting her foot down so she knew what her rights were, and she didn’t burn so much capital on being stubborn. I don’t think OP is wrong, to be clear, and I’m all for malicious compliance if it’s available, but I don’t think this was the most strategic approach.

        Reply
    6. Green great dragon*

      I think that’d be fairly easy to answer – probably with yes, any of the above. And I don’t think OP wants to wear any of them.

      Reply
    7. ecnaseener*

      It seems like the most likely outcome of asking these questions is the boss lands on “yes it has to be underwire, or at least enough lift and immobilization to pass as underwire” when they otherwise might have accepted a bralette.

      Reply
    8. Wintermute*

      If this was done WAY earlier, as a way of asking what, specific problem they want you to solve, then it might have worked (e.g. if the problem is coworkers complaining of visible nipples then silicone patches could work, if the problem is too much cleavage different shirts could work, if the problem is they’re moving around and she’s accidentally exposing herself in the process then other methods could be employed or different shirts, etc).

      At this point she just needs to buck up and comply OR very delicately ask, without a hint of insubordination, what the precise problem you are being asked to solve is.

      Reply
      1. Candi*

        “if the problem is they’re moving around and she’s accidentally exposing herself”

        That reminds me of a shirt I had to take back.

        It should’ve been in my size. But thanks to my cup size, it was far too short in front.

        While not wearing a bra would change the drape, are OP’s shirts still long enough to not cause her belly to be shown randomly as she moves around? As I observed with my mother’s slobbin’ around clothing, it’s far too easy to flash by accident if the shirt is too short. (She was large-chested too.)

        Reply
    9. Observer*

      asking for details can highlight the arbitrariness and lack of actual specificity in the policy.

      All it’s going to do is make her look stupid or obnoxious.

      Sure, the policy is not specific. Most really good policies actually aren’t. I mean do you REALLY want dress code policies with the kind of specificity you are suggesting the OP ask for. Forget bras (or lack thereof). Do you really want a dress code that’s 500 pages long and lays out the exact materials, colors, cuts and sizing that people can wear?

      Reply
    10. Iris Eyes*

      In the interest of trying to find out what specifically is the issue I like this tack. It is likely that any additional layer on the top half could solve whatever they actually have an issue with. And plenty of workplaces would have no problem telling people of any gender presentation that they should have on an underlayer (some of those white men’s shirts are REALLY sheer lol).

      To all the commenters who are so concerned about silhouette, large breasts harnessed into their “proper” place is highly likely to make button down shirts, scoop neck shirts etc to be LESS professional because of the whole cleavage thing and button popping thing.

      Reply
      1. Big Breasted Bra Wearer (but commando!)*

        I gave up button down shirts years ago. Properly fitted scoopnecks and v-necks even aren’t revealing, I know because that’s my entire wardrobe.

        Reply
    11. Double A*

      Workplaces can make it so simple. “No nipples or hair visible under shirts.” Bam. It applies to all humans who have nipples. Whatever undergarments or layers they use to achieve this is on them.

      I think this fight about a “bra” is the problem. Because really the problem is there is too much visibility into what is going on underneath the OP’s clothes. If she can use a camisole or bralette or layers or whatever to cover her nipples and limit movement, that should be fine. If she does that and they’re still like, “No, it must be a bra,” then it’s a problem. Right now the bra is a solution to the problem. OP should have them articulate the problem, then she can address the problem in whatever way is most comfortable to her.

      Reply
    12. Jessica Fletcher*

      Malicious compliance time! They told you to wear a bra. They didn’t tell you it had to be tight. Get a loose bralette or even a crop top that you can comfortably wear. You’ll be wearing a bra, as requested. Are they really gonna dictate what your breasts look like in the bra? Cuz that’s moving into gender discrimination territory, complaining that your body isn’t sufficiently pleasing.

      Reply
  5. What nonsense will 2023 bring us?*

    LW1, I’m side-eyeing how much time your supervisors apparently spend looking at other people’s chests (and not wanting to think about what they look at on your male colleagues).

    Like Alison said, it’s up to you to decide how far you want to push it. That said, the comments tend to have good advice on braless options that make it less obvious you’re not wearing a bra (not that anyone should be paying that much attention to your chest anyway), so if you don’t feel like fully pushing back maybe that could also be an option? Though admittedly, this would be a safer option if you weren’t already on a last warning.

    It might also be worth figuring out what gives away your being braless and address that instead. If you’re anything like me going braless makes jiggle physics (don’t google that on a work computer or even a work network) look tame, but that might not be the case for you.

    I’m sorry I even have to suggest any of this, however. No one should be looking that closely at anything that is not your face (except maybe a doctor in the process of examining you), but here we are.

    Reply
    1. allathian*

      Yeah, this. It shouldn’t be an issue at all, but for people who are bustier, it often sadly is. I suspect that with this employer, nothing more than fully conforming to their expectations will be acceptable, given that the LW’s on her last warning.

      Granted, I couldn’t imagine going braless, just the idea of no support makes my back and shoulders ache (underwire bras FTW!), but I have no idea if my coworkers are wearing a bra or not, and it’s none of my business regardless.

      My mom had a 40+ year career in a STEM field, and she never wore more than a bralette. Granted, she spent most of her time at work in a lab, but AFAIK she never got any comments about not wearing a bra at work.

      Reply
    2. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      I think I’d notice. I definitely do not spend time looking at people’s chests. It just takes half a second to notice something, the same way you notice that someone is wearing a cute neckline, or an adorable print fabric, or that you really like the ruching effect on their dress. All of those things happen in the same general region.

      Reply
    3. Not always right*

      I don’t think it’s so much that management is purposely staring at women’s chest as it is that OP says she is well endowed. As such, her simply walking at a fast pace would make it evident that she isn’t wearing a bra. I had a co-worker once who was average sized in the chest area. She was a fast walker and I can attest that it was very easy to tell she didn’t wear a bra. In a addition to that, the AC was often set on frigid, so that made it more noticeable. I am guessing that someone spoke to her about it because she started wearing scarves or pashimas. That pretty much took care of bra gate.

      Reply
    4. tg33*

      For some people it’s really obvious when someone isn’t wearing a bra, without having to stare. If your coworkers can tell you aren’t wearing a bra, without staring or obviously looking, then it’s obvious you aren’t wearing a bra.

      Reply
    5. Wintermute*

      There are tons of reasons that are perfectly legitimate. The most likely thing is they are getting complaints that she isn’t fully covered up and any accusation of harassment here could easily be turned around on her.

      I don’t get the people here who are like “why are they discussing her body, that’s sexual harassment”– when the same thing could EASILY be turned around on her if she’s having slips or stuff is more visible than she thinks. If no one could tell no one would care, so obviously PEOPLE CAN TELL. It’s entirely possible a co-worker has filed a harassment complaint against her because they think she’s subtly flashing them in a targeted way.

      Reply
    6. Environmental Compliance*

      “It might also be worth figuring out what gives away your being braless and address that instead.”

      +1000

      Maybe the answer isn’t a bra – maybe wearing a thicker undershirt would help. Or maybe pasties. Or maybe a cami with a shelf built in.

      Or maybe they really are just being creepy and overly attentive… it’s really hard to say based on what’s in the letter by itself.

      I wouldn’t say I’m *huge*, but I’m bursty enough that it is noticeable if I am not wearing a bra with certain shirts. So…. I don’t wear that combo to work. But there’s a lot of other options that aren’t necessarily ‘bra’ on days I can’t bring myself to deal with the ribcage pressure.

      Reply
    7. Quinalla*

      Since I WFH nearly all the time now, I don’t wear a bra except for the couple times I go in, go to conferences, etc. Even then, if it is cold out and I’m wearing a sweater, I don’t wear a bra as while I’m sure some people could guess, it just isn’t that noticeable in bulkier wear. I do wear a cami with no bra or structure in it, this gives me just a hint of support and I like it for warmth and coverage of my stomach/back if I am bending over/reaching up – I do that for some site work for my job frequently.

      But yeah, for tighter fitting shirts/blouses, going without a bra looks weird enough that I haven’t wanted to not wear one. I’ve been experimenting with different types, found a couple good non-underwire bras at Torrid – the shelf bras and very unstructured bras are not comfortable or don’t look right on me.

      Otherwise, only time I wear a bra is a sports bra when exercising so I don’t get the annoying/painful exercise bounce. But yeah, I’m a 42D and after 2 pregnancies/3 babies, I don’t have any of the expected breast shape without a bra on. I have to say my back, shoulders, etc. are so much happier not wearing a bra and I did have ones that fit well.

      Reply
    8. Tetonica*

      “It might also be worth figuring out what gives away your being braless and address that instead. If you’re anything like me going braless makes jiggle physics (don’t google that on a work computer or even a work network) look tame, but that might not be the case for you.”

      oh hey, you know what would fix that. A br— eh, never mind.

      Reply
  6. Caramel & Cheddar*

    “as long as the dress code doesn’t place a significantly higher burden on one sex.”

    The courts have apparently never bought a good quality bra otherwise they’d know how expensive it can get.

    Reply
    1. Dark Macadamia*

      Right??? Like I know it doesn’t meet the legal definition but the price, variety of styles, difficulty of sizing properly, comfort, etc can be a pretty giant hardship on a personal level

      Reply
      1. Allonge*

        I believe the (legal) argument here would be that this is not the case for all women, or even (citation needed!) for the majority of women (I would love to see some stats on this though!).

        Yes, it takes some time/effort, but is that not the case with just about any clothing item? It’s not like finding a good suit is easy or cheap. I have not found a blouse that fits well in ages – I have at least two bra brands that work well for me (after removing the underwire). Stands to reason for others it’s going to be the other way around.

        So the point is that this is part of the hurdles of getting dressed.

        Reply
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          “I would love to see some stats on this though!”

          I think I read somewhere that the average cup size for American women is now DD. Most clothing is designed for a B cup. Non-specialty bra stores tend to top out at DD — and even that size can be hard to find; on the other end of the spectrum, it can be really hard to get bras on the smaller end of the scale (e.g. a 26″ or 28″ band). At this point non-specialty bra stores aren’t even serving 50% of the population who might want or need a bra, and clothing retailers are doing an even worse job. [I don’t have links for any of this info; this is just stuff you glean from years of sewing clothing and the frustrations therein.]

          Reply
          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            As someone who went from C to DD with moderate weight gain (I’d say I’m mid-sized to small fat now), it’s a HUGE difference in the way clothes fit and the ability to find comfortable, affordable bras. Especially if I want them to be cute. There are bralettes that in theory fit my size, but once you get bigger the shape of your breasts is a much bigger issue, so they squeeze and mash in odd ways that aren’t really comfortable – unless I size up and then the bands are too loose. It’s a completely different experience and definitely a financial burden. Which only gets worse as you get bigger.

            Reply
            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              “Sister sizing”, as they call it, always feels like such a scam — instead of making a bigger variety of cup sizes, they just tell you to go up or down a band and hope for the best. [Cup sizes are actually relative to the band size, for those who are unfamiliar; a 34 C is going to have the same cup volume as a 36 B.]

              Bras are feats of engineering, so while a small range of sizes can be created from sizing up/down the same pattern, the further away you get from the original size everything is based on, everything gets askew. Proportions change and most companies don’t want to develop a second (or third) set of sizes based on a different set of proportions.

              Reply
              1. Eldritch Office Worker*

                Yep! Clothing engineering too. My cup size has gone up way more than my band size, and I find clothes styles that were once flattering are now odd and boxy because they just added more fabric. So something that once cinched at the waist now swims around me because my boobs stick out farther, and the shape just got bigger to compensate instead of rethinking the proportions of the garment.

                I get it, it’s mass production and I could get everything tailored, but that’s such an ask when a coworker can grab something off the rack and it fits their body perfectly. It’s annoying.

                Reply
                1. Bookmark*

                  Siiiiigh yes the shirts. Have resigned myself that I need to get all my dress shirts tailored if I want to look put together. But even then, lots of styles aren’t fixable even with a good tailor (why is the waist seam often in the middle of my boobs?) It is so frustrating.

              2. Chirpy*

                Sister sizing IS a scam, absolutely never have I gotten a bra or swimsuit top that actually holds things in by trying the size the store person suggests (because they inevitably don’t carry my size.) Last time I tried shopping in person, the lady told me to get a breast reduction when I told her the size she offered didn’t work.

                Reply
                1. Candi*

                  The only time I heard a specific price on breast surgery was around $10,000.

                  In the 1990s.

                  I think the big clothing companies can afford spending money on R&D for properly sized female clothing far more than the average person can afford to spend on breast reduction, especially if that reduction has no medical issue behind it. (As decided by doctors.)

          2. Becky*

            As someone with a background in statistics, I’m curious about the assertion that “At this point non-specialty bra stores aren’t even serving 50% of the population who might want or need a bra”. When we say the average cup size is DD*, what does that mean – i.e., what does the distribution look like? What percentage of the female population falls in the DD bucket? 1%? 25%? “DD is the average cup size” doesn’t mean “50% is bigger” and “50% is lower”.

            *Furthermore, as I’m sure you know (but many people don’t!), DD isn’t an actual “size”. It’s a relationship of the volume of breast to the size of the ribcage. A person who is 34DD has the same amount of boob, by volume, as someone who is 38C or 40B. Someone who is 34DD may find that she can fit comfortably in a 36D in some brands, even if her preferred size is 34DD. To know how much of the population who needs a bra is being served by the current market, we’d need to know the percent of the population who is in each number/letter combination.

            I know this went off on a bit of a tangent, just something I’ve found curious over the years.

            Reply
            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              For that matter, DD isn’t a cup size, it’s an E (this varies slightly by bra style, but that’s true for most cup sizes). It’s just weird marketing that is specific to the states.

              However, your curiosity about statistics is a real one, and it’s mostly a matter of cause and effect. The median size for a woman in the U.S. is about 18-20, or XL-XXL, but even stores that sell extended styles will sell a majority of M-XL. Some of that is that larger sized people shop off the rack less, or order online less, because the way standards sizes are sized up are typically unflattering and they’re less likely to trust online retailers. This leads to the success of specialty stores like Torrid. There’s statistical evidence that plus size women simply buy less clothing, because the market doesn’t cater to them or make them feel welcome and seen, and therefore stores use that data to justify not making clothing for them.

              It’s a statistic that doesn’t make sense because it’s indicative of a much deeper social science.

              Reply
              1. Caramel & Cheddar*

                If you dive into bras from the UK and the EU (or even beyond), you’ll be disappointed to discover that all bra sizes are marketing, not just the ones in the US. EU and UK sizes don’t always correspond, both in cup size and band size, and then half the time French lingerie companies are doing their own thing all together. A company I often buy bras from has to have a sizing chart on their website comparing US, UK, and EU sizing so that you can double check you’re buying the right thing based on the bra’s origin. Bra fitting is a very tedious business!

                Reply
                1. Eldritch Office Worker*

                  I belive that. My experience and research is US based but trying to find ways to profit off market psychology and women’s bodies is seemingly universal.

              2. Candi*

                I also know that I was buying well below my size until I got properly measured. The size I was buying was the largest available off the shelf; the size I am is hard to find even in speciality brick-and-mortar stores.

                So you have to wonder how many of those sales are people who don’t know how to get the correct size for their body type, so they buy small.

                Reply
            2. Caramel & Cheddar*

              I can’t speak to the methodology of how they collected the data or what distribution they were using for a stat I read many years ago.

              Reply
          3. Lisa Simpson*

            Most stores reliably sell 34-36-38 BCD, and that’s it. You can find a handful of models available in 32 and 40 band sizes, and a handful of models available in A and DD cup sizes, and that’s really it.

            And a lot of the extended size online shops only sell sizes larger than what is available in brick and mortar stores, not smaller. So if you’re a 30C or a 28D you’re even more limited.

            Reply
            1. Chirpy*

              And, even online they often only sell bigger cups- DDD, E, F, etc in band sizes of 40 or larger, so if you have big cups on a small size ribcage, you’re just completely screwed.

              Reply
          4. Splendid Colors*

            I’m surprised to hear most clothing is designed for a B cup. I’m finally a B, and clothing still looks baggy on top if it fits at the hips and across the shoulders.

            Reply
            1. Ace in the Hole*

              That’s because dressmaker’s cup sizes and bra cup sizes are totally different measurement systems.

              Bra cup sizes are measured by the difference between underbust (around the ribs just below the breasts) and full bust (the widest point, usually around the nipples.

              Sewing cup sizes are measured by the difference between high bust (around the upper chest, at about armpit level) and full bust. Since the high bust is almost always much bigger than the underbust, this means a given person’s dress cup size will always be smaller than their bra cup size.

              Reply
        2. Iris Eyes*

          Right but both men and women would need to purchase a suit if that’s required for the workplace, same thing for “professional” shoes. If bras are required for all women and only for women then that is an entire separate garment that they have to purchase that a male coworker doesn’t have to purchase at all. That’s probably where you would start to have an argument.

          Reply
          1. Candi*

            That’s when you get companies phrasing it as “appropriate undergarments” in the dress code -though they have minimal power to enforce it, since inspection crosses into harassment territory. It’d be like someone checking if a woman was wearing knee-highs or nylons.

            Reply
    2. mreasy*

      THIS. Especially if you are a non-standard size, you’re easily spending $50+ per bra just to get one that fits, let alone is comfortable and flattering!

      Reply
      1. Former Girl*

        Someone should submit the existence of the subreddit /r/abrathatfits as evidence that wearing a bra can be an enormous burden in money, time, and brain space.

        Reply
      2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        Depends on how you define “fits”. Yes, a bra that “lifts and separates” with underwires and boning all over will cost you $50, and make you look like you have missile warheads sticking out of your chest. Many people consider that “flattering”. They are uncomfortable and emphasize your boobs. Not a thing I want as an enby.

        IME, there isn’t a bra made that “fits” me without emphasizing my boobs. I have to accept that a soft, minimizing sports bra is the closest to fit for purpose that I can find.

        Reply
      3. Candi*

        Depends. I get mine for $30 or less off Amazon. Still pricey, to the point that grabbing a couple extra when they had a 12% off sale made perfect financial sense.

        If they’re asking for breasts to have a specific “look”, THAT is 100% unreasonable.

        Reply
    3. Quokka*

      I was going to ask this as well. My bra size is very uncommon and in my entire state there is one bra shop that stocks it, and they only have a few bras at a time in that size. As all bras fit differently you kind of have to go in to try them on, or you are online ordering and posting back constantly. I’m lucky if my bras cost under $100AUD each. Bras only last a few months before they start stretching, even when they are good quality and hand washed. On the other hand most business attire can last quite a few years before showing signs of wear.

      Also, if my breasts do the same thing they did last pregnancy/post-birth, I am not able to get my breastfeeding size boobs a correctly fitted maternity bra. They don’t exist in the size I would need. And there are certainly women who cannot get bras in the size they would need because they just aren’t made, and custom made bras are incredibly expensive.

      Anyways, LW I would recommend a maternity singlet top with a shelf bra. That got me through breastfeeding my Bub when I couldn’t get a bra that fit, as well as some more recent rib injury issues. Just enough support to contain some movement and give some lift, but not enough to feel constrained. The maternity ones should allow for extra space in the bust than a standard shelf bra would. As a bonus they are also much cheaper! This is probably your best option. Even some men are required to wear singlets under their work shirts to prevent their nipples (or perhaps even chest hair) showing, so this seems like a reasonable compromise.

      Reply
    4. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Amen to this! After I had just weaned my youngest and was left with a (very stretched out) C-cup, I used to be able to just waltz into a discount store and walk out with a bra off a clearance rack and have it fit just fine. Now that my boobs bounced back to a very uncommon size, I’m down to a handful of brands/models that will fit me and they are not cheap at all.

      Reply
  7. lifebeforecorona*

    It might be a good idea to mark the wedding date as “booked” even if it isn’t. Your co-worker doesn’t have to know that it’s a phantom booking.

    Reply
    1. I&I*

      That might lead to them losing out on real bookings, though. If she was obsessively determined it might be necessary, but the ‘NEEDS’ is likely just hyperbole. She can’t force them to book; they just need an impersonal no.

      Reply
      1. lifebeforecorona*

        My opinion is that the co-worker will only accept that wedding date is taken. Once she realizes that her co-worker is managing the website and refused the booking then the issue is going to become an office drama. Someone else grabbed the date sounds better than “I don’t like you.”

        Reply
        1. Stacy*

          If she’s pushy/won’t accept the no, the booking email address can just block her email address going forward.

          Reply
          1. Starbuck*

            Still OP should probably assume bride-to-be could figure it out at some point, as it’s not a closely guarded secret. Better to have that possibility in mind.

            Reply
      2. irene adler*

        True. Just say no. If countered, indicate that “sorry the date/time is taken” (even if the calendar doesn’t indicate this). If challenged, state that another client booked the date/time ahead of when co-worker initiated contact. The calendar will be updated when the booking details are complete. Then simply fill in the calendar when an actual customer is booked for that day/time.

        It’s a matter of having already booked a client for that date/time; just don’t have their identity yet.

        Reply
    2. Aphrodite*

      I suggest the OP not bother to do that. Besides losing other potential bookings, it wouldn’t really solve the problem. The OP says the date is far off so the bride might be willing to change the date to get the band she wants and if so you have to deal with this issue all over again.

      Nope, this just needs to be a straightforward “thanks for asking but we cannot play at your wedding.” Add “best wishes for a lovely day” and leave it at that. Repeat as necessary.

      Reply
      1. lifebeforecorona*

        Someone willing to change their wedding date just to book one particular vendor has brought a level of intensity to the equation that won’t be easily dissuaded.

        Reply
        1. metadata minion*

          That seems like an odd thing to pick out as crazy when to the other types of unreasonableness she’s shown. If she’s still in the “see what stuff is available on our maybe-date” stage, and this vendor is really important to her, why *not* move the date to one they’re available if it works for everything else?

          Reply
          1. turquoisecow*

            As someone who went through wedding planning, finding a location to have the wedding at which is free on the date you want is probably harder to do than finding a band, and if she’s at the point she’s hiring bands she probably has a location picked out. She may have put down a deposit. Changing that date for the band’s convenience would be wildly difficult, especially because the venue may have booked any backup dates and she may have even sent save the date cards already.

            Unless it’s a small wedding in a home (which seems unlikely if she’s hiring a band), changing dates is HARD.

            Reply
        2. MCMonkeyBean*

          What? Um, no? Vendors are very commonly a significant part of what goes into choosing a wedding day, what an odd take.

          Reply
          1. MCMonkeyBean*

            I mean, it’s probably *most* commonly the venue, but everyone has different priorities about what they care about most when planning a wedding and I’m sure there are plenty of very reasonable people who would plan around a wedding band. (I believe that it was even a plot point on Friends that Monica gives up her dream dress so Chandler can have the band he likes–it’s all about sorting through priorities!)

            Reply
        3. doreen*

          I don’t know about that – I suspect most wedding dates are chosen based on the venue’s availability but I’ve also known people who chose the date first and then picked the venue based on what was available. Is she wants this band enough, she might choose the date based on their availability and then venue-shop around that date.

          Reply
      2. Lady_Lessa*

        Could they come up with an informal rule never to play a c0-worker’s wedding. That might exclude a few others, but would eliminate problems.

        Reply
      3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        They could probably switch back to “available” a few weeks later. Jane might take a look at the schedule, see that it’s booked and then start looking around for another possibility.

        If ever Jane looks again and sees that it’s available again, they could pretend it’s a “technical glitch” in the schedule, or a mistake.

        Reply
        1. Anon Fed Employee*

          Or the couple who had booked them just broke up. Or the wedding got pushed to a different date. Or any other variety of reasons that a prior booking is now available.

          Reply
      4. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I had thought they could temporarily list it as booked and then once LW got word that the coworker had hired a different band, could then simply re-list it as available (“whoops, original plans fell through!”) but then came to the same conclusion you did that she might change dates or, worse, fire her second choice band if she found out her first choice was suddenly available again.

        Reply
    3. Hiding*

      I agree… I’d mark it as ‘booked’ for now at least (you can ‘unbook’ it later), and reply with a ‘sorry we have another commitment that date, here’s a list of other bands you might appreciate’.

      And then three months out from the wedding, unbook the date, knowing someone will probably still snap it up. I’m not sure how much income your husband’s band might lose on this date if they don’t get a gig, but it might be worth it?

      Another option is to let your husband just handle it outright, let him ‘interview her’ and then decline the gig and stay riiiiiiight out of it all. If it comes up later and she works out you are married to him just shrug and say “Oh gosh! I don’t know what happens with his band in that detail, sorry he wasn’t available” and just change the subject.

      Reply
  8. coffee*

    I am so intrigued as to what “entitlement vibes” look like!

    LW1, my advice here is to be as bland and unengaged as possible whenever you’re talking about the co-irker or interacting with them. It’s very easy to fall into “bitch eating crackers” mode and that can cause issues at work. Save yourself any drama and just quietly enjoy your moment of karma.

    (For anyone unaware: “bitch eating crackers mode” is when someone annoys you so much that the most innocuous thing gets on your nerve, leading to you sitting in the lunch room and saying things like “Wow, look at that bitch over there, eating crackers” i.e. complaining about very minor unimportant things which then overshadow the actual annoying things that they do.)

    Reply
    1. Emmy Noether*

      I am also wondering about this. LW says herself that Jane is “normally friendly” and that they don’t interact much. So there was one (1) interaction where LW thought Jane was rude, and since then, she has observed some unspecified “entitlement vibes” from afar. I also thought the wording “I had to talk to her” was strange – sounds as if LW didn’t want to talk to Jane even before the incident?

      I know we’re supposed to take people at their word, but… it’s very possible to read this as one misunderstanding, and then subsequent BEC from disliking Jane from that one misunderstanding.

      I’m getting unreliable narrator vibes from this one.

      Reply
      1. coffee*

        LW2 might have just skipped explaining all the reasons why she doesn’t like Jane? Or maybe she just finds Jane annoying in general, no particular reason. Or whatever.

        Whatever the reason, the important thing is that she wrote in asking how she can remain professional, and in my experience, she will be well served by disengaging as much as possible. Jane’s in a different department so take advantage of the distance. Instead of bringing “all the drama” home to talk to her husband about, only bring home the highlights reel.

        Reply
          1. Kermit’s Bookkeepers*

            I’d be interested to hear more details too, but I think “This bride stresses out my wife and I don’t need the money that badly” are impediments enough. As long as you’re not turning down clients who are part of a protected class for no other reason than their protected class status, I don’t think you need to prove the legitimacy of your rejection, y’know? Jane isn’t owed a wedding performance from LW’s husband.

            Reply
            1. ScruffyInternHerder*

              I can absolutely see my husband determining things along these lines – “this person p!sses my wife off to the nth degree and stresses her out at work, therefore I’m not inviting any more opportunities for this same person to create stress and aggravation outside of her work into our life”

              (Mostly because he trusts me. I don’t get rattled much. If I’m rattled, there’s a reason.)

              Reply
            2. Splendid Colors*

              I suspect LW’s husband’s band is popular enough he can afford not to take gigs with potential bridezillas because he can get another gig with someone who won’t be a pain to work with. If Jane is a problem at work, where she is not the boss of everything, what might she be like if she’s Boss of the Wedding?

              Reply
          2. ecnaseener*

            It’s right there in the letter: the husband has heard enough complaints about Jane that he’d rather not deal with her as a client. He gets to make that call.

            Reply
            1. Lunch Ghost*

              No, it says he doesn’t want her to have to do the behind the scenes work on the wedding, since she helps him with the business, I guess doing scheduling and maybe loading? Which, I don’t know, I think I’d be fine doing that sort of thing for the wedding of someone who annoys me if I was getting paid for it. (I wouldn’t want to be AT the wedding, but it sounds like that’s not part of the job and she usually isn’t).

              Reply
              1. Riot Grrrl*

                I’m with you on this. I honestly don’t understand why this is a problem. It feels like LW is making something way more personal than it needs to be.

                Reply
              2. The Person from the Resume*

                I believe it is the behind the scenes work. For a wedding, the couple picks songs for their first dance, parent’s dance, etc. They may also select other songs they or do not want played. The couple arranges when and how long the band will play at the reception, when there will be breaks, etc.

                It seems like there is some logistical stuff that the LW may normally deal with the bride/couple about, and it is fair that she doesn’t want to deal with unfriendly coworker for her family’s side business.

                And she also may not want to get sucked into any involvement in her unfriendly coworker’s wedding planning.

                But also LW doesn’t like and gets entitelement vibes from her coworker. I suggest the LW be very careful not to let her unfriendly coworker know this is her husband’s band or she may get pressured to get them to perform during work.

                Reply
              3. wordswords*

                Maybe, but also maybe communicating with the couple, handling billing, etc. Which is crossing some streams here, since Jane is OP’s coworker, and while with some people that’d be fine it seems like something that pretty clearly won’t be fun for at least one of the parties involved.

                I might or might not be fine doing that, depending on the details, but I think it’s fair enough for OP to decide that this has a high likelihood of being stressful and annoying, and for OP’s husband to decide that he doesn’t care enough about getting this specific gig to make either of them deal with that. And it sounds like OP’s husband’s band is definitely not desperate for gigs, and can easily afford to not do this one, and is pretty well decided on not doing it.

                Reply
            1. Allonge*

              Which may well be the case but there will be plenty of others also in the business of this band – I am not sure if you can be the biggest wedding band in any area without dealing with some.

              Reply
          3. Lacey*

            It sounds like she’s unpleasant to work with and the OP’s husband doesn’t want to book a gig with someone he already knows is unpleasant.

            Reply
          4. Lizzo*

            I do freelance work that sometimes involves weddings, and I would *not* book something involving a colleague of my spouse. If things get weird with the client (which happens, because weddings are stressful), that could potentially cause issues for my spouse at work, e.g. the couple transfers their dissatisfaction with my work onto my spouse.

            I’ve found the “I’m unavailable but here are some other folks you might contact for these services” approach to work very well.

            Reply
            1. cncx*

              This is where I am at. All these people saying LW is making it personal or whatever- weddings are stressful. LW is at BEC stage with this person so from the get go their best isn’t ideal. It’s about the mixing colleagues with a stressful situation, it doesn’t matter the why or wherefor of LW’s reticence.

              Reply
    2. Cat Tree*

      Yeah, I felt like I missed something reading that letter. LW talks about “all that drama” because the coworker was snippy once and has a bad vibe?

      It doesn’t change the advice at all because OP’s husband doesn’t have to take any job he doesn’t want to.

      But I’m kinda wondering if the drama is coming mostly from LW.

      Reply
      1. Poison I.V. drip*

        I dunno, it strikes me as unprofessional to be unable to approach this request the same as any other. What if this coworker gets transferred to your department, do you quit your job? If you share a workplace with the potential client, surely you can be composed enough to complete an perfectly professional business transaction.

        Reply
        1. OP number 2*

          I replied fully to this thread but to add more context:
          Jane does Admin-adjacent work. I work in a laboratory setting. Although our desks are in an open concept office, I have a separate lab for benchwork that I’m in about 50% of the time.
          Jane and I rarely have to cross paths and would never be transferred between departments.
          The snowballing talk I had to have with her was basically Jane telling a coworker I could do “X” when in reality I could only do “Y”. I told her that was outside of my scope and she said I should “google it and learn how to do it” (not possible).

          after this encounter I told my coworker and he had similar interactions with her. It was after this that I started noticing all the complaints she seemed to have and how she carried herself around the office area.

          Hope that adds some clarity, I’m realizing the original email was missing some backstory/details!

          Reply
              1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

                Exactly – Jane is way off.

                Same as, in my job, you’d need specific rights and permissions to specific software in order to do “X”. Jane can google “database queries” till she’s blue in the face, but if she doesn’t have access to the database, she cannot run a query on it, end of story.

                Reply
    3. OP number 2*

      To add so clarity the the “entitlement” comment (I had written and rewrote this whole email so I’m now seeing important info was left out):

      We are an open concept office, Jane has been with us for less than a year and she felt she should have been given an office, and complained when we had to share a desk. Only managers and the IT guy get offices, but she has complained loudly about it whenever she gets the chance. Jane is not a manager.

      Jane was also upset that she can’t get a parking spot closest o the front entrance of our building. She comes in at 9am, most of those people who park there get in at 6am (myself included). We have a flexible schedule and no assigned parking. About 75% of the building is in by 8am. She has also made comments about my department “leaving early” when really we just like getting in early so it’s quiet, getting our stuff done, and leaving to see our families at a reasonable time. She also has this option.

      As for the wedding bookings-
      My husband charges a decent amount of money for weddings and some couples have changed their date to have them play. I’d guess that happens about 2-3 times a year.

      I do not want to be known to Jane that I deal with the wedding stuff. I would rather a coworker not book my husband regardless since weddings get very emotional and I wouldn’t imagine I’d like dealing with it at work or after hours if I know the person.

      In theory we could mark the date as “booked” but then we’d be missing out on a lot of money during prime wedding season. And this woman seems so brazen as to ask if any Saturday in that month is available, which as of today, all but one are.

      Hope that clears some stuff up!

      Reply
      1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

        I think should it ever come out that the band is your husband and Jane gets mad at you, it’s pretty reasonable to just let the reason be exactly what you said: “My husband has a policy of not working with people that we know in other contexts”

        Reply
        1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

          Yes, if I were in similar circumstances I would definitely have that policy. “You don’t sh*t where you eat” is a lesson I’ve learned the hard way with co-workers/students/clients in the past.

          Reply
      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        In my AAM fanfic, Jane is the kind of co-irker who absolutely would find out that it was yours and your husband’s business that turned her down and then raise a HUGE stink at work that would result in her looking like a fool (at best). If you do what Alison says and she never finds out it’s you, then great, but if somehow she figures it out and confronts you, you would probably be best off having some sort of prepared line to give her too. Maybe something like “My husband doesn’t feel comfortable playing weddings for professional associates of mine so we have that as a policy, sorry.” (If he’s played for your colleagues in the past you can just tell her it’s a new policy since then.) You could even tell her this now when responding to her email. And again in my fanfic Jane will raise a huge stink about it, but you will absolutely not be the bad guy and whatever stink she raises will only make her look bad, not you. Stay professional and take the high ground and you will be fine here.

        Also in my fanfic, Jane keeps making these ridiculous entitlement comments and finally gets herself fired, or else she does something absolutely bananas (along the lines of the LW who went around their boss’ back to their grandboss and changed a whole bunch of things the boss had told them not to change) and gets herself fired. Please send us an update, OP!

        Reply
        1. MCMonkeyBean*

          I think if in the future Jane learns OP is married to one of the band members it would be best to just play dumb about the whole thing–if she never talked about Jane at home there would be no reason for the band to even know about the work connection. So I’d probably just say something like “I’m not really involved with my husband’s bookings so I can’t really speak to why they weren’t available” and pretend that nobody knew there was any connection at all.

          Reply
      3. Ginger With a Soul*

        Glad you posted the update, OP2!

        Before reading the update, I was going to ask whether the contrarian strategy of having your husband actually take the gig might be an option, (since it seemed like his only reservation was how it would impact you) and then having you take the credit for it with Jane (e.g. “Oh, I saw your name come through the system and even though he was on the fence about that date, since you’re my coworker etc. etc.”), under the rationale of being the bigger person as well as recasting yourself in Jane’s head as the heroine whom she owes big time (not that you care what she thinks, but to facilitate future office interactions).

        However, after reading the details, I agree with you that this sounds like a recipe for having a portion of your work day eaten up with requests from Jane to pass along to your husband (and if there are unreasonable requests in the mix — “the whole band needs to wear bright chartreuse bow ties and tailcoats, which I will not be providing!” — making dealing with her on a day-to-day basis even more of a headache).

        As others have noted, though: the whole thing will be easy to ignore if she never works out that he’s your husband, but if she does find out, then you likely will have to either deal with pleas to intervene on her behalf (if she finds out before her wedding) or bitterness that she was rejected (if she finds out after).

        So, my best advice (which still isn’t very good) is to suggest that if Jane finds out about your relationship, you say something to the effect of, “Oh, I don’t get involved in band stuff: that’s his thing and he has his own system. If it doesn’t come in through the website, it might as well not exist.” Stick to that line as an excuse for your refusal to pass along messages, etc.

        And good luck!

        Reply
      4. A Non E Mouse*

        As someone who used to do the contract management & event “advance” work for a middle agency for party bands, I completely understand your hesitancy. Dealt with many a high maintenance person – but I was being compensated for that work and had a boss who could intervene on my and the bands’ behalf to help level set expectations. This particular client’s access to you could quickly become problematic – especially given her perhaps unrealistic expectations.

        Reply
      5. Somehow_I_Manage*

        Ugh. OP2. This problem is a real turd. I’m not really sure what I’d do. No matter what you do, it’s likely she’ll put the pieces together someday.

        I think the safest course is to just have your husband respond, “Thank you for reaching out. We are considering other bookings for dates around that time. Good luck.”

        It’s sufficiently vague, and offers you enough shelter should it come up in the future. Even if they continue to see the date open, these negotiations often take time, fall through, and change. I’d also be sure to have your husband handle 100% of the correspondence. Consider it part of the duties of his marriage covenant to draw this boundary with this client!

        Reply
      6. Modesty Poncho*

        I’m not sure how it’s “brazen” to be flexible about your date when booking? I think maybe what you mean is that you don’t think she’d get the hint that you’re turning her down completely instead of just turning down one date. Which, I wouldn’t either. If you don’t want her as a client you’re going to have to tell her, most likely.

        I agree that “I don’t do business with people we know socially” is a good blanket reason to give but wonder if Jane would then make it your problem that you’re the reason she didn’t get her band…

        Reply
    4. MCMonkeyBean*

      Yeah, ultimately it doesn’t change anything for the advice here because the band does not need to play Jane’s wedding, but I admit I’m a bit curious about how this went from “she’s normally friendly” to where things are at now. Sometimes people just don’t click and if that’s what is happening here that is totally fine as long as they are professional with each other but I agree that (unrelated to any of the wedding stuff) it may be worth a bit of internal consideration regarding the relationship as a whole.

      Reply
  9. Your Computer Guy*

    I really identify with letter #4. I also have small children and no bandwidth for development on my own time. Yet my company seems to think all development should happen on our own time. Manager even made some comment about “if you’ve got an hour to spend watching Netflix, you can spend it learning something instead.” Well, I don’t have an hour for Netflix. I have no hours, at all.

    I feel like there should be some allowances made for development within working hours, but I do wonder if I’m way outside the norm on that. I’m pretty frustrated by my current company’s stance and it is contributing to me wanting to look elsewhere (if only I had the time).

    Reply
    1. CarlDean*

      I feel you, too. 3 year old and 2 month old. Both parents work. There is NO time. It’s all we can do to get everyone washed, clothed, fed, etc. consistently. I cannot remember the last time I got to watch an hour of TV (except to turn on Disney in desperation to distract my 3 year old bc I needed to do something with the baby). Sometimes it just all seems impossible.

      I like Alison’s advice/script. If boss does not seem understanding, then start looking for a new job. You can get a new job. You can’t get new kids.

      And I agree with comment above that should be time for this during work. Employer wants it to benefit them, not you. So it’s obnoxious for them to expect you would do it off hours for free.

      Reply
      1. Crcala*

        Agreed. I really sympathize with LW #4. I only have 1 small child and I feel like I’m on top of nothing. That coupled with lack of sleep really makes work hard sometimes. Sending you support LW! And as my therapist often tells me, this is the situation right now, but it won’t be forever. (Hugs).

        Reply
        1. Jzilbeck*

          I can also relate. I have a 4 month old and just went back to work and everyday I feel like I’m drowning. Was put on a brand new assignment as is, which makes getting back to the swing of things at work that much harder. Throw in sleep regressions, overnight & daytime milk pumping, etc. and baby’s general refusal to day nap, and you’ve got one fried mama. The other day my supervisor approached me with the thought of re-absorbing some of my pre-maternity leave responsibilities and I gave him a resounding NOOOOO.

          Reply
    2. allathian*

      I’m very grateful that the vast majority of all the training I’ve done during my 15 years at my current employer has been on company time. I did get a certification in 2019-2020 that was mostly on my own time, but even then I was allowed to use 6 work days for seminars, and webinars after March 2020. In my case, my employer also paid for the training. All the employer-mandated training I’ve ever done has been on company time. I realize that I’m very privileged to be able to say that.

      Reply
      1. metadata minion*

        Same here! I also hadn’t realized how unusual it is since I’ve had basically one “real” job this whole time and am now doubly grateful for our already pretty excellent professional development policies. Sure, I sometimes did coding homework at home so I could yell at the computer in my pajamas, but I *could* have done it at work.

        Reply
    3. Plethora*

      Absolutely this. I realize I’m an abberation, but any professional development, training, certs, or coursework my employers have ever required have been done on company time. There’s never been a question of doing it off the clock. That might not have worked for classes scheduled outside of work hours, but it’s definitely a conversation worth having.

      “I’ve looked into it, and I don’t have the time after work to complete X. What should I take off my plate at work to have Y hours free to do X each week?” using Alison’s matter-of-fact, super-reasonable-person tone might be a way to broach the subject.

      Reply
      1. Mangled Metaphor*

        If it’s a Professional qualification (i.e. one that gives you letters after your name), the chances are the awarding body will be holding its exams during the regular 9-5 work day.

        So, if your company *requires* you to get the learning done and *requires* it be done on your own time (here the implication is that you need to take a precious day’s leave, either paid or unpaid), they can be *required* to find a new employee.

        Reply
    4. Jackalope*

      I’m reminded of some organization that sent me an email saying that they wanted me to use the same amount of time I used to watch Game of Thrones to [complete some sort of volunteer work for them]. I cheerfully complied by spreading exactly 0 minutes on this, same as with GoT. (Not a fan.) I continue to spend this same amount of time on both GoT and…. whatever the volunteer work was.

      Reply
      1. lifebeforecorona*

        If I’m watching mindless TV it’s because that’s all my brain can handle. Compelling me to do work at home isn’t going to happen when my brain is already tired and overloaded.

        Reply
        1. Fledge Mulholland*

          THIS. Having the time and having the bandwidth are two different things. We are human beings who need to rest and recharge, not robots. I mean, I have a ten month old and a four year old, so like many of the other commenters, I neither have the time nor the bandwidth, but even if I did have a spare minute that wasn’t taken up by childcare, laundry, dishes, doctors appointments, etc. I would desperately need it to rest, not keep burning myself out.

          Reply
        2. MigraineMonth*

          Productivity studies in show that office workers are productive for only 3 hours a day. If they want someone to study for three hours after work, that’s going to take out the entire next day’s productivity.

          Reply
      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I was very entertained one day when someone was waxing poetic about a similar topic (spend the time doing something “useful” rather than TV!1!, *eyeroll*), and they looked over at me and asked me how much time I could then devote to… whatever it was.

        None!

        What??? No, how much time do you spend watching TV?

        None!! We don’t have cable or Netflix or anything. :)

        *pure confusion* …..but what do you do then….?

        And then I got to talk about my craft room, which completely derailed the rant – which was mostly a “Millennials can’t accomplish anything glued to screens” based rant, and as a Millennial (TM), I took a lot of pride in completely derailing. Also, enjoyment for enjoyment’s sake is…perfectly fine??? Let people have nice things. (I didn’t mention I listen to YouTube gaming videos as I knit/weave/sew.)

        Very happy that my current employer has pushed that any required/recommended training/seminars/etc are during work hours – and has allowed me to schedule interns to attend trainings/seminars *we pay for* during work hours as well.

        Reply
      3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        So G0T is the avocado toast of TV shows now. Oh that’s funny, in a “are they out of their minds?!” kind of way.

        First time I met with this kind of logic, I was still an active member of a church and the parish council member in charge of finances gave a big talk one Sunday (in place of the usual sermon by the priest) about how the church was short on cash and we all needed to consider upping our pledges for the following year. He said “you are probably wondering how you can come up with that type of money, well here’s one way. A daily cup of coffee is $5, that’s almost $2,000 a year. If you stop buying coffee every day…” and we all just stared in total confusion. None of us bought coffee at a coffee shop every day – I made my own and never bought any at all, except when traveling. (But he apparently did.)

        Reply
        1. Splendid Colors*

          A local women’s political advocacy group used the “you spend $3.50 on coffee every day, so just send us X days worth of latté money to us every month” spiel in their fundraising campaign (not for a candidate, for the group’s internal budget) back in 2016.

          I wrote back to them that it looks like I’m not part of their target audience because I can’t afford to treat myself to coffee every day. They responded that “liking to drink lattés doesn’t make us bad people.” No, but assuming that only women with that level of disposable income would be interested in your group is kind of snobbish.

          Reply
    5. AlwhoisThatAl*

      This is what puzzled me, surely the company lets them do the training within work time. I am the person in charge of training at my Company and I arrange courses for people to be done in work time. Apart from anything else it allows them to learn in their work environment. Courses have generic examples, they have to. Doing it in worktime allows people to ask others who are already qualified and to work on real projects applying their knowledge – it’s a win-win situation.
      Why are some employers so dense?!

      Reply
      1. Harper the Other One*

        Honestly, speaking as someone who has been doing retraining for the past few years, if you have a lot going on in your life, it doesn’t matter WHEN the time is for you to study; your brain just isn’t in the best place to absorb new information. A sleep deprived parent, a person providing care for an aging relative, a person dealing with chronic health conditions that are flaring up… all of these are situations where the employee might say “I’m not going to benefit from this the way I normally would because I don’t have the bandwidth.”

        Reply
        1. AlwhoisThatAl*

          Agreed, but surely thats why you check if the person is happy doing the training. If they are OK with that, you arrange the training and get their other work covered while they are doing the training so they don’t have anything to come back to.
          This ordering training no matter what is nonsensical, people can’t learn under these conditions. They are being set up for failure.

          Reply
      2. Just me*

        There’s a difference between courses for a job role, and professional qualifications that are transferable.

        It’s common (in Australia) for companies to agree to pay course fees for higher education, but for the study to be done on your own time. This is for professional level qualifications that require considerable study but also provide a life long qualification that will see you have higher hourly rates and stronger employment opportunities. Generally the company will ask for a commitment from you to stay with them for a period of time for paying for this, and they gain for a few years while you do the study and work a little longer for them, in return you’ve qualified at something that you can take anywhere.

        This includes things like bar exams for law, senior accounting qualifications, post graduated studies in Allied Health that qualify for new types of therapy, crane or riggers tickets (where this isn’t your job role but it’s nice to have another person who can do it as back up), most of these things are $5-20,000 and require considerable effort.

        Reply
    6. Alice*

      I’ve been happy to learn on my own time but am not juggling kids or time consuming commitments. I have tried to persuade my company to designate Friday afternoons to learning time (typically quiet period of the week) and have met with resistance- despite the fact most people spend the day twiddling their thumbs and looking at the clock. I don’t get the obsession with wanting people to spend even more of their free time doing “work activity” when it just stresses people out and alienates a large group of their employees

      Reply
    7. bamcheeks*

      Manager even made some comment about “if you’ve got an hour to spend watching Netflix, you can spend it learning something instead.”

      This is so horrendous, even if you didn’t have kids! A really unsustainable burn-people-out-and-replace-them-with-new-people mindset. Horrible!

      Reply
        1. Your Computer Guy*

          No, it’s the vibe of the whole place. They’ve always had the expectation that you’ll train on your own time (must devote all working time to billable hours), and we definitely have a deficit of people to promote into higher level roles when needed. My current manager is just all-in on it. I’m definitely looking elsewhere.

          Reply
      1. anne of mean gables*

        Definitely the business-casual version of “if you’ve got time to lean, you’ve got time to clean”

        Reply
    8. Ellis Bell*

      So this guy thinks that if you work for him, you should be always doing work right up until the point you pass out into unconsciousness? Well, I suppose it’s one way of making sure your child free employees never have the time to make babies! Honestly, I think you should be looking for that new job during work time.

      Reply
    9. Rosacolleti*

      I would have assumed you would be allocated work time to study rather than your own time if it was something your manager asked you to do. That wouldn’t fly in my business, and I own i

      Reply
    10. Working Mom*

      I feel your pain. I have 3 kids. I do have a free hour. Its between 8-9:30 after my kids go to bed. And yes I will be spending it watching netflix, bc its the only time everyday I get to myself. TYVM.

      Reply
      1. Fabulous*

        You can get your kids in bed by 8pm?!? HOW, haha. Even if I can get my 2 year old to lay down by 8, she still refuses to fall asleep before 8:30-9pm.

        Reply
        1. Double A*

          I do have some advice on this, but it’s sadly a rob Peter to pay Paul situation: either waking her up a bit earlier or cutting back on the length of her nap could help her go down a bit earlier. But I know there are a lot of reasons that neither of those might be possible!

          Reply
    11. Lacey*

      Oh wow! Your manager is super out of touch!
      Your time outside of work is your own to use as you see fit.
      If you were able to carve out a single hour for yourself, you’d clearly need it to destress.

      Everywhere I’ve worked has allowed to professional development during work hours.
      I’ve taken online courses during working hours or just done tutorials.
      Most of these were just sort of as I had time, because I wanted to learn them, but sometimes an employer wanted me to learn something specific and made sure I had blocks of time to work on learning it.

      Reply
    12. Totally Minnie*

      if you’ve got an hour to spend watching Netflix, you can spend it learning something instead.

      Even if you did have loads of free time, this would still be a really terrible take. Spending an hour watching television requires an entirely different level of mental engagement from spending an hour studying. Human brains aren’t meant to be working and learning during 100% of their waking hours, people need downtime to process and absorb the information they’ve learned, and sometimes the way you rest your brain is by watching Schitt’s Creek for the 37th time.

      Reply
      1. AnonInCanada*

        It’s the same “if you’ve got the time to lean, you’ve got the time to clean” mentality that a**hole bosses have which drive away good workers. They can’t crack the whip if there’s no one there to hear it or feel its sting.

        Reply
    13. Fives*

      I don’t have kids, but I’ve had anxiety for a long time and my mental health has taken a nosedive over the last three (!) years. I completed some certification courses at the beginning of the pandemic (we were allowed to during work hours), but the stress of studying and taking the exams really did a number on me. My director let me opt out of some of my licensing. I am forever grateful for this.

      Reply
    14. Fabulous*

      100% – I have a 4 year old, a 2 year old, and am due with #3 in May. What little time I DO have to “watch Netflix,” it’s MY time. I need to decompress too!!

      Reply
    15. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Ugh, Computer Guy, your company is terrible, I hope you do manage to find some time to get out of there. Aside from them thinking that watching Netflix is the same as doing something complicated that requires a lot of brain power, they are completely out of touch.

      I haven’t scanned all the comments here so I don’t know if this has been said elsewhere, but I think it needs to be said that it’s not necessary to always be learning new things (like OP said in the letter). By this I mean, sometimes it’s only possible to stay afloat, to stay on top of things and make sure your job gets done and your kids are taken care of and trying to improve your professional knowledge can and should be put on the back burner. And heck, if you do think it’s necessary to always be learning new things, those new things don’t have to be work things. Right now, OP, you are learning your kids’ favorite foods, their sleep habits, and how much you can get done if you don’t sleep well because your kid kept you awake half the night. You don’t always have to be learning things in your professional field; taking care of kids is just as much a job as your work is.

      (I might need to add a caveat here that I am slightly on the lazy side when it comes to work and like to leave work at work, so I might not be a reliable narrator here, but I doubt I’m alone in this.)

      Reply
    16. kiki*

      “if you’ve got an hour to spend watching Netflix, you can spend it learning something instead.”

      There are so many issues with this, but it’s also just so incredibly condescending and presumptuous!

      Reply
      1. Nina*

        I watch Netflix. I usually put it on my tablet on the cookbook rest while I’m making food, or if god forbid I sit down to watch it’s because I’m catching up on mending or knitting/sewing a new garment.

        Reply
    17. MCMonkeyBean*

      I definitely agree that if there is some certification the company wants you to get for their benefit then they need to allow the studying to happen during the time they pay you for. I didn’t study for my CPA during business hours, but I do all my required continuing education to keep my license during business hours.

      Reply
    18. Your Computer Guy*

      I’m appreciating the validation here. I’ve always felt like it was short-sighted to not provide any support for professional development, and my manager’s comment definitely rustled my jimmies.

      Reply
    19. another Hero*

      I’m expected to do professional development on work time. I sometimes allow it to spill over into non-work time because of the form my PD takes and the way my life is structured, but the idea that a bunch of studying you are supposed to do for the sake of your job (or even career) couldn’t happen at your job…is not some uniform standard, no, I don’t think you’re off base. I’m sure it varies by field and workplace; it’s something I ask about in interviews. but not weird to do on work time.

      Reply
    20. My Cabbages!*

      Ugh. I do have an hour for Netflix…and that hour is *mine*. It sure as hell isn’t my employer’s.

      The entitlement over employees’ lives that some companies have is disgusting.

      Reply
      1. Here for the Insurance*

        Yep, this is where I’m at. If they aren’t paying me for it, they’re not getting it, period. Doesn’t matter how much energy I have or what else I might be doing. Pay up or shut up.

        I view statements like this as similar to my mother’s opinions — yes, I could do whatever it is that you think I should, but I’m not going to because I’m a grown-ass adult and I don’t want to. If I can stand up to her, I can sure as hell stand up to you. She knows how to push my buttons way better than you do.

        Reply
    21. Allonge*

      OMG. I mean what even?

      The only way any employer would have any say in staff doing training out of hours is if the training is, let’s say, 95% in the benefit of the employee as a person, and only 5% for work – and work is still paying for it.

      And even then, comments on what someone does with their free time should be a LOT more civil.

      Reply
    22. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      My therapist (whom I adore) uses watching TV as an example of self-care. (He wants me to block some time during lunch breaks and evenings for “me time” so I won’t burn out, and said I could read or watch TV during those to unwind.) So there’s that.

      My children’s ages are in the “I had children of my own when I was those ages” range, and I still have a hard time squeezing any learning into my own time. Mainly because after my work is done for the day, I’m so tired most days, my brain is all tapped out and cannot take anymore professional development or anything else that is worklike. When they were infants and toddlers? forget it. Besides every free minute was used up by the cooking, cleaning, laundry, you know all the chores that are impossible to do when you’re actively in the process of taking care of small children.

      Lastly, to the OP, if this boss really means a CPA exam, he’s delusional. Some of my and my kids’ friends had to study for and take those recently. Both the prep and the exam, from their descriptions, sounded extremely intense to me and not something one can just squeeze in between cleaning up after dinner and putting kids to bed.

      Reply
  10. idwtpaun*

    #1 They’ve never asked a male employee to wear a bra, but I wonder if they’ve ever asked one to wear different types of underwear. If a male employee has a particularly large penis, would they go as far as asking them to wear underwear that makes it less visible? I bet it’d never occur to them, but meanwhile your underwear has become a regular topic of conversation.

    And I actually do get the discomfort one might experience at noticing another person’s nipples. I switched to wireless bras rather than go entirely braless because I found that I’m personally uncomfortable going to work with just a shirt/blouse, but that’s a product of the culture I grew up in. I wouldn’t mind if we as a culture moved towards caring much less about breasts and nipples and future generations didn’t feel compelled to wear 3 lawyers in summer heat lest the reality of their physical bodies becomes apparent to other people.

    Reply
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I used to have a male colleague who’d wear dress shirts until they’d disintegrate and you could definitely see his nipples through them. It was definitely odd, though I’m guessing no one spoke to him about it ever.

      Reply
      1. Phony Genius*

        Same here, except it was a sci-fi movie t-shirt, which he was somehow allowed to wear. And the base t-shirt was the same color as his flesh making it look that much weirder. I didn’t like it. (I am a man.)

        Reply
    2. Turanga Leela*

      If a guy were wearing pants that made the outline of his penis obviously visible, I feel like people would say something! Breasts and penises are different–someone’s penis shouldn’t be visible at all in the workplace, whereas it’s normal (and probably inevitable) for the shape or silhouette of breasts to be visible. The OP’s workplace just wants her breasts to look a certain way, I guess, which feels gross.

      Reply
      1. ds*

        Dunno if rears count here, but I have had 4 coworkers whose pants ended up down mid-crack every time they sat down. Zero underwear on those men. No one ever talked to them or reported them despite their chairs making it very obvious their booty was hanging out for everyone to see. (No idea why but all of them sat right where they were the first thing you saw down the end of a hallway into the open space “cubicle” zone, so unless you turned the corner with your eyes closed, you’d see it.
        The only guy I’ve known was talked to for such a thing was one who wore short shorts to work for a week, they eventually kindly asked if he’d wear lengthier shorts. The reason they talked to him at all was because it was actually shorter than the dress code allowed for, for any human working there. (One guy got told to wear a collared shirt, but that isn’t on this level, that’s just because a t-shirt is not business casual attire.)
        And I’ve definitely seen some non-undie wearing guys wandering around work in very tight pants. (Again the bane of corner turning at the wrong time or going up stairs as they are coming down them.) As far as I know no one said a word.

        Reply
        1. ecnaseener*

          I’m not sure how you would know they’re not wearing underwear – I would assume their underwear rides down with their pants.

          Reply
        2. President Porpoise*

          Ok, so genuine question. Does anyone know of a brand or style of men’s pants that help prevent this visible crack issue? I know the answer for most people is to wear pants that fit and use a belt – but my husband does both of those things and just has a body shape that makes his rear want to be free. Even suspenders haven’t helped!

          What I think I want is the style of pants that men wore in like the 1950s. Or pants that men wear for salsa dancing. You know, the kind that go up to the armpits…

          Reply
          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Do his pants only sag in the back or do they fall down…uniformly, I guess? And are they truly sagging or is his shirt riding up?

            My spouse has a long torso and I purposefully get him the longest shirts I can find (I believe they’re all under Big N Tall, which is sometimes unfortunate because Spouse is also a string bean). I think I get him med/large extra longs and it actually is long enough to tuck in properly. Regular shirts won’t hit his waistband. I do know he has a pair of thinner slacks that because they’re slicker like to droop more. His more cottony-feeling ones do not near as much (I assume because the fabric of the shirt + the pants are better at keeping enough friction). But Spouse’s issue was not really his pants falling down as much as sagging because his belt didn’t have enough holes + his shirts were too short. Leather puncher + long shirts fixed it.

            I’m pretty crafty, so I also somewhat jokingly offered to put snaps/buttons on the inside of his pants that he could attach his shirt to his waistband.

            Reply
            1. anne of mean gables*

              Carhartt has “extra long” versions of their shirts! Obviously might not work if your spouse needs true business casual workwear, but if it’s a more casual workplace or for weekend wear might be a good option.

              Reply
              1. Environmental Compliance*

                These are all dress shirts – he works in an office. However, I think in his new (!!) job he can get away with more Carhatt/Duluth type gear, so we’ll have to see if the local depot maybe has some better options for him.

                Otherwise he exists in athletic gear in varying stages of sag/wear. We did find a brand of shorts that cinches in much better at his waist – totally forgetting what it was, but it’s cargo shorts and has little elastic draw strings at the hips with a deeper crotch. It seems to be more comfortable + stay up better during hikes.

                But to Hen’s point below – I also got him 100% cotton boxer briefs without that slick waistband, and that seems to have helped too. The ones that are the “wicking” shiny fabric are very slide-y.

                Reply
            2. Hen in a Windstorm*

              Oh, you just reminded me – my husband has 2 pairs of boxer briefs made of a shiny technical type fabric, and when he wears those his jeans slide down, even while wearing a belt. So that is also a possibility.

              Reply
            3. President Porpoise*

              Pretty sure his issue is just that his butt starts higher up than other peoples’. Not by much but by enough to make things awkward. But I think the long shirt suggestion is awesome! He’s in a position where he’s mostly wearing tee shirts, so that may be a big piece of the problem. I’ll go find some longer ones and gift them to him.

              Reply
          2. Hen in a Windstorm*

            Actually, this is why men’s dress shirts have such long tails. You tuck aaalll that material in and when you sit, it rides up a bit, but you’re still covered. So the answer is longer shirts!

            Reply
          3. Generic Name*

            Duluth trading company sells men’s shirts that are extra long and meant to be tucked into pants to cover a plumbers crack. My husband has the problem when he forgets to wear a belt, but fortunately a belt keeps his pants where they’re supposed to be

            Reply
          4. Ginger Baker*

            You can buy salsa pants! They might be a bit pricey, and definitely should be tried on (probably go a size up since they are made to be pretty tight) but salsa and other ballroom dance pants are def out there. :-)

            Reply
      2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        I worked in a place where this specific issue was in fact part of the dress code. Silky basketball shorts and similar were prohibited because we don’t want to see the outline of your junk swinging in the breeze. There were other guidelines around showing butt crack and visible underwear, for both men and women.

        Reply
    3. MK*

      You would lose that bet. I have known men yo be reprimanded for much less than wrong underwear, and much more bluntly than women too.

      Reply
      1. Not always right*

        Same. It ended up causing quite the kerfluffle. The acoustics around my desk were such that I was able to hear private conversations going on in the big boss’s office. I was 21 at the time and kind of scarred me for a while. Honestly, until I overhead everything, I never noticed how large the gentlemen was. After that, I really had a difficult time trying keep my eyes up. Thankfully the gentlemen in question never knew what I overhead. That was 20 years ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. Shudder

        Reply
    4. AlwhoisThatAl*

      Spike Milligan’s hilarious War memoirs speaks of Gunner “Plunger” Bailey, the only man in his regiment to be excused wearing shorts in tropical climates due to him being blessed in the trouser department.

      Reply
    5. Cat's Paw for Cats*

      I never had to counsel an employee about his penis, but I did have two separate occasions where I had to ask the gentlemen in question to wear pants that did not slide down in the back.

      Reply
    6. Jaid*

      On AITA, someone wrote in that he was written up because he worked at a daycare and when he bent over, the band of his (colorful) underwear could be seen. Apparently, it offended his coworkers…

      Reply
    7. Wintermute*

      I think you hit it on the head. Clothing exists for many reasons, but minimizing the display of intimate parts is an important one even children know about. Acting like you don’t get that is just going to make you look intentionally obtuse or like you literally come from another universe. And the Fergus of Gor look is not a great one for the workplace.

      The issue is not “men don’t have to wear a bra”, the gender-neutral phrasing would be “your erectile tissue should not be highly visible in the workplace whatever the nature of that tissue is depending on your anatomy.”

      Reply
    8. Malarkey01*

      Um yes. At 22 years old, my first supervisory job was in an archival document warehouse where employees could wear shorts and I had to tell one employee that his short length combined with his underwear choice (I believe none or very loose boxers idk) and maybe his size (I did NOT mention that part) was occasionally leading to his penis emerging from his pant leg and that in certain instances the outline of his penis was blatant and “not secured” (the only word I could think to describe we could see it flopping around when he walked). We had numerous complaints.

      Reply
      1. pugsnbourbon*

        All I can think about it that scene from Friends – Phoebe’s (?) boyfriend had that issue and Gunther from the coffeeshop said something like “the mouse is out of the house.”

        Reply
    9. B*

      I’m feeling the malicious compliance here; I might choose to wear a bra/bralette that is ludicrously over sized so as not to actually contain or constrain the “jiggle” with the possible added benefit of being more comfortable and more undershirt like than your average bra. If management still interferes with your body image, widen your eyes and say you are in compliance and who is watching your breasts at work as opposed to getting their own work done. Extra points in said undergarments are neon prints that may slightly show through your shirts. Also did they say where you must wear this “bra”? I’m thinking a cute bra belt or scarf ? /s

      Reply
    10. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

      I think you’re on to something, with the fact that often we ourselves can have surprise or discomfort at some anatomical features at work, even if we recognize that this social conditioning.

      For example, I was really thrown off during my first rotation where all my fellow students / residents / etc were wearing scrubs, to see that some men wear scrub shirts without an undershit. As many scrubs (especially the hospital issue scrubs) had V-neck tops, this meant that some men had visible chest hair showing at work. I had “men’s chest hair” in a “things seen at the beach” category, rather than a “things I see on my coworkers at work” category. Now, I worked on this by questioning my own assumptions (why does this seem sexual to me when it doesn’t have to be?), but it also helped that it was a reasonably common sight. This made it a little easier to become desensitized, so I can hope that as more people become less focused on bras being necessary for professional dress, it becomes less surprising to see the occasional nipple outline.

      Reply
  11. Brain the Brian*

    LW2: Can you add a fake performance to the publicly-viewable calendar on the date of your coworker’s wedding to help “back up” your email?

    Reply
    1. Miette*

      Or perhaps a response of, “That date is on hold for another couple, pending venue booking” or something?

      This doesn’t preclude her asking for alternative dates of course, if the band is truly the deciding factor for her. So it may have to come down to admitting you’re connected to the band and explaining there is a strict “no co-workers” policy, owing to past drama that you don’t ever have to explain, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

      Reply
      1. Brain the Brian*

        Eventually, though, the coworker might see through that ruse if the date never fills up (or if the business has a general no-holds policy).

        Reply
    2. Jellyfish Catcher*

      For LW 2 – take Alison’s advice to have your husband handle declining booking the band.
      That way….you stay ALL the WAY out of this no-win issue.
      There are 2 possible results:
      1. She never connects you as the spouse: you’re home free.
      2. She does connect you. You give a baffled look of confusion, while saying “oh, my husband and I agreed long ago that he handles his business as he
      chooses, I don’t interfere.”Repeat as necessary.
      2A. If she nags you, or becomes verbally abusive more than once, make a complaint. Keep notes of times/dates, etc. Win/win.

      Reply
  12. MovingMom*

    As the mom of a “well endowed” teen who detests wearing bras, I can say that members of our families as well as I aren’t in the habit of staring at people’s chests. That said, in the case of our teen, who as a theater kid has been taught to stand straight and tall, breast tissue movement (and potentially nipple outlines – sorry) can be distracting to even those who avert their gazes. In our teen’s case, we found lightweight bralettes and camisoles would often do the trick of hampering movement and thus making the people around them less uncomfortable. It shouldn’t be LR1’s responsibility, but otoh having one’s gaze caught by unexpected movement doesn’t automatically imply sexism either.

    Reply
    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I think “unexpected movement” is a good point–that is something we are just hard-wired to pay attention to in the environment, no matter how confident we are that a sabretoothed cat is not going to jump us in the supply closet. It’s why commercials jump so often.

      For a pop culture reference, Fiona on Burn Notice often went braless (I believe at the actress’s preference) and I noticed in terms of the look of her top when she was moving. Not in a negative way, and it mostly stuck in my mind because of a scene where she’s in a bra later, and it was very clear to me that the bra was added between takes.

      Reply
  13. Ghostlight*

    LW1… aside from the obvious this is BS and I’m angry for you, may I suggest Evelyn and Bobbie? (https://evelynbobbie.com/)

    As a fellow busty lady, these wire free bras are the most comfortable ones I’ve tried and they also have good camisoles. (I broke a rib right where an underwire on a bra sits almost a decade ago and I have major pain when wearing about 99% of wired bras so I’ve done a lot of looking for alternatives.)

    Reply
    1. mdv*

      Many many companies that advertise “larger sizes” don’t go near a size that works for me, and I have reached a point in my life where underwires are intolerable, so thanks for this suggestion.

      I would also like to recommend She-Fit (https://shefit.com/) – their ‘lounge bra’ is the best thing I’ve ever worn, and the most affordable one I’ve found so far.

      Reply
    2. irene adler*

      Thank you for the recommendation. How comfortable are they when one is sweaty like in warm/hot weather or when exercising?

      Reply
      1. Ghostlight*

        They’re ok in the summer but not quite as breathable as I’d like. I don’t think I’d recommend them for workouts but for everyday they’re perfect. (If you’re busty and need a workout bra, shefit (https://shefit.com/) is the way to go. They’re super customizable. They could lay flatter under a shirt if you ask me, but part of the reason they don’t is the genius of the construction. (Customizable straps and bands with Velcro and then they close via zipper up the front and they’re the only sports bra I can wear comfortably for heavy duty workouts.)

        Btw, I’m a 34G, so finding bras in general is difficult.

        Mindd (https://www.minddbra.com) are also pretty good but I like the shape I get from E&B better and they hold up better over time.

        Reply
    3. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      I’ve been pretty happy with “Leading Lady”. I’m busty but not outrageously so, fwiw. I got the first one when I was going to be a house guest for several weeks and didn’t know how comfortable I’d be going braless on weekends. That was in 2019, and when the pandemic thing happened I got a few more. They come in cotton as well as not-cotton. I have no reason to ever wear an underwire again.

      Reply
    1. PoolLounger*

      Or she could find a job where no one cares. OP, I’m a large chested woman whose had many jobs in my life and no one has ever caref or commented on my not wearing a bra. Maybe one aspect has been working in environments that are mostly women, another is that I’ve worked in education, retail, and artsy/bookish fields. I hope you find a workplace that cares more about your work than your body!

      Reply
      1. Bra wearer*

        LW1 – I am puzzled by all the responses from people who don’t want to wear bras. I am a reasonably large chested woman – I wear a UK size 34E – and I hate the feeling of not wearing a bra. The weight and movement of my breasts when bra-less is something I find very physically uncomfortable. I really like structured bras which make my breasts “stand still”.

        I’m not trying to deny anyone else’s experience, it’s just fascinating to learn how other people’s experience can be completely different to ours.

        Reply
        1. Emmy Noether*

          I think there are a variety of factors playing in to what feels more comfortable, including:
          – the type of moving around one does (I definitely wear a bra for dance class, but not necessarily for sitting around)
          – how irritable one’s skin is
          – how well-fitting the bra is
          – the specific morphology of the breasts and upper body
          – and not least: what one has gotten used to. The “weight and movement” you describe is something that can feel weird and uncomfortable when it’s a change from the usual, but will feel just normal if one is used to it.

          For larger breasts, it can sometimes come down to a choice between one type of discomfort and another. It’s very personal what will tip the scales.

          Reply
        2. LeahS*

          It is really fascinating! I wear a bra when I am out of my house but I hate hate hate them and have a large chest. Definitely different strokes for different folks :)

          Reply
        3. Reluctant Braista*

          In my case it’s because of asthma – anything constricting around my chest is really uncomfortable.
          Up until a few years ago I was flat chested enough for it not to matter but a surprise side effect of hormone treatment for endometriosis meant I blossomed to a (UK) D cup in my mid-forties! The increased jiggling without support is a little bit uncomfortable but it’s still a lot less bad than how wearing a bra on a bad-breathing day feels.

          Reply
      2. Ellis Bell*

        Education is super variable. I’ve worked in schools where no one would care, and others where the culture is such that it would be a huge problem. One school my sister works at had a head who wanted to make a busty TA wear a tabard during dinner duties because the little boys were being immature (and would have made all the other TAs wear one too, without explaining the reason). Luckily, my sister was in a position to tell the head she was being ridiculous; this wouldn’t have worked if it had been a braless TA.

        Reply
    2. scandi*

      My undergarments are not my employer’s business, provided all my bits are covered. Requiring bras is about requiring that my breasts are a specific shape, which is frankly gross coming from an employer. No one “needs” to wear a bra at work. Some women are more comfortable wearing one, and thus choose to. I haven’t worn one in over five years, and no one has as of yet expired from the sight of the outline of my chest.

      Reply
      1. MEH Squared*

        I, too, have not worn a bra for roughly that amount of time and I’m VERY busty. I have sensory issues so I wear as little clothing as possible and nothing restrictive. Fortunaately, I do not work in an office, but if I did, I would not wear a bra. I would cover up my boobs and nipples, obviously, but it’s tiresome that in 2023, we’re still having this discussion.

        I’m not saying LW shouldn’t wear a bra if that’s the best solution for her, obviously. I just wish it weren’t an issue.

        Reply
      2. Wintermute*

        That simply is NOT true.

        It’s not automatically about body shape, it very well could be that they’re getting complaints that things that should not be visible are visible or that she’s having wardrobe coverage issues, which are both quite legitimate reasons for a coworker to be uncomfortable.

        “wear a bra” is how the boss is expressing “solve your issue”. This could be because the boss isn’t going to get into the details for fear of crossing lines or it being an awkward conversation, isn’t aware of non-bra solutions to the problem, doesn’t want to out the complainantants; or, quite likely here, knows the LW is going to try to rules lawyer and obstruct and wants to give a clear and incontrovertible demand.

        If no one could tell no one would know and no one would complain.

        Reply
        1. AthenaC*

          Unfortunately I think I agree with this. All we have is LW1’s perspective, but if it’s jarringly obvious and borderline obscene in appearance then I totally get why they won’t leave it alone. Or it could be the manager who’s obsessive and inappropriately policing LW1’s normal appearance – we just don’t know.

          I would be curious if LW1 has had this feedback before or if this is new – that might indicate whether either LW1 or their manager is out of line. Or maybe a mix of both – who knows.

          Reply
        2. Don't Call Me Shirley*

          It could be a polish issue – if it’s an industry or role where clothing is expected to be well fitted or give an air of authority or whatever else, it’s a problem with fit or client impressions of sloppiness or whatever else.

          I’m large chested. If I am wearing a non-fitted hoodie or a loose sweater, my bra status is a mystery. If I wear a men’s dress shirt and tie with a substantial waistcoat, same. But if I’m just wearing business attire coded female, I’m going to have trouble making it look professional if it’s tailored for a smaller chest wearing a bra. There’s probably options other than a bra, but the “minimum level of polish” may be “what you’re wearing, but with a bra, or maybe and undershirt or similar”

          Reply
        3. scandi*

          In that case the solution would be adding more layers, not adding a bra, right? I fail to see how “you must wear a bra” is less awkward that “your tops are somewhat transparent in the lighting here, please add additional/more opaque layers”.

          Reply
    3. What nonsense will 2023 bring us?*

      As much as I can’t imagine not wearing a bra (I’d rather not get clocked in the face by my own breasts tyvm), unless you are in a job where bras are almost a piece of safety equipment (my previous job was like that – it hurts enough to have your arm pinched between boxes, I don’t care to find out what pinched breasts feel like) I wouldn’t dream of making someone wear them.

      Let people be comfortable when there are no safety reasons for discomfort, whether that means wearing a bra or not.

      Reply
      1. metadata minion*

        As a librarian who has accidentally stacked books on top of boobs instead of other books in the stack, I can confirm that it is not fun. :-b (I do prefer wearing a bra, but I usually go for light-compression sports type bras, and those only do so much in the armor department).

        Reply
    4. vegan velociraptor*

      Nope, you definitely don’t always! I stopped wearing bras last year, and I can’t even imagine the circumstances in which my coworkers or managers would a) comment or b) tell me that I needed to wear a bra.

      Reply
    5. Essentially Cheesy*

      Yes, I am definitely of the camp that views this as part of being a professional self-respecting well-endowed woman in the workplace. There are many comfortable non-wired comfortable bra options nowadays, I even have sturdy and durable “Just My Size” or “Playtex” bras that were not expensive at the time that can still be found for $20 or less.

      Reply
      1. Anon for this*

        Okay, I’m ready for these bras (of any quality) that will fit my 36H chest for less than $20! Please send me links because I spend a fortune on bras.

        Reply
  14. I&I*

    OP1 – if it’s a comfort issue, you might try googling ‘old lady bras’ or ‘bras for elderly women.’ I’m not elderly but I have a couple of wireless front-fasteners that I use for lounging; the padding gives a bit of shape but they’re no more constricting than an undershirt. They don’t give the same uplift as a regular bra, at least if you’re as busty as likes of us, but they should comply with the dress code without being too binding.

    Reply
    1. virago*

      This.

      If LW 1 is in the US, I suggest that she check out Fruit of the Loom’s extremely inexpensive (less than $10 apiece) front-closure wireless cotton bra.

      This bra received an in-depth thumbs up on New York magazine’s consumer site, The Strategist. The reviewer first wore it for nursing; wore it again after having a post-nursing breast lift, and now, at the age of 50, continues to wear it to accommodate perimenopausal tenderness.

      If you want to read the review, Google “I’ve Worn This $8 Cotton Bra For 27 Years.” (I don’t work for New York magazine, Fruit of the Loom, or Walmart, which sells this bra. I’m just a 57-year-old woman who is always eager to connect other breast-havers with cheap and supportive bras.)

      Reply
      1. Falling Diphthong*

        This is fascinating to me, as I am still scarred from a pre-mastectomy trip to the mall (and surrounding large stores) to buy a soft, front-closing bra with no underwire: across multiple stores, I found almost none and the two or so I found did not fit comfortably.

        Reply
      2. Anon for this*

        Those are for people who don’t have large breasts. I’m a 36 H. If I found an $8 bra in my size, I’d cry tears of happiness! We don’t know what LW means by “busty,” but a lot of commenters here are recommending bras that go up to a D cup at most.

        Reply
        1. I&I*

          I won’t tell you my exact size, but I am definitely a full-blown titty-toter, believe me. The bras for elderly women are stretchy enough that they don’t need to be an exact fit, and the large sizes can be plenty. I personally wouldn’t wear them except for duvet days precisely because they’re not firm or tight enough to give proper support, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue for OP.

          Reply
        2. virago*

          I’m the one who posted the comment on the $8 Fruit of the Loom bra, and you make a very good point! The woman who gave it a good review offered no clue as to what size boulders she’s holding.

          I myself used to be a 34F UK/34G US. I went up to a 34FF UK/34H US, then thanks to hypothyroidism and menopause, I started putting on the pounds, made a brief stop at 36FF UK, and finally landed at 38F UK.

          All this is to say that I don’t find any $8 bras in my size either.

          Reply
    2. Stitch*

      I’m a smaller chested person but I cases where I couldn’t wear a bra (for a few days when I was recovering from mastitis), I just wore a loose fitting sweatshirt or jacket the whole time.

      Especially when I was nursing (except for the mastitis), I felt a lot more comfortable while wearing a thicked banded nursing bra. Extra movement could hurt.

      Reply
    3. Not Australian*

      Another alternative – from this elderly, post breast-cancer bra-wearer – would be a ‘racerback sports bra’. The one I have now was the equivalent of about $35 US and is the most comfortable I have ever worn in my life – adjustable in many different ways and with absolutely no underwiring anywhere.

      Reply
    4. Totally Minnie*

      I accidentally bought a nursing bra early in the pandemic when I was still getting used to doing all my shopping online, and it was so comfortable that I bought three more. So that’s another option for people who need a bra but have trouble finding comfortable ones.

      Reply
  15. Plethora*

    LW5, look to your state or region’s economic development agency, site selector agency, or chamber of commerce. Chances are good they have materials or information already prepared pitching the quality of life and other intangible benefits of your area. No need to reinvent the wheel!

    Reply
    1. LW5/The RED Redhead*

      Thanks! That occurred to me as I was driving home last week.

      We have a couple real estate agents that employees have recommended to us, after our most recent CO->Western NY transplant wound up needing a new place to live RIGHTNOW, so I definitely want to include them, but I don’t want to re-create the wheel.

      Reply
    2. bighairnoheart*

      Yes, I was coming to comment about economic development agencies and chambers of commerce, but I knew someone else would have beat me to it!

      I’ll also add that local governments (your town, city, county) can sometimes already have materials like this, or at least information on their website that you could include yourself. Any kind of entity whose job it is to attract people to live there would be good to look at. Best of luck with the hiring!

      Reply
    3. Antilles*

      If your budget allows for it, you might also consider bringing in candidates for an extra day longer than the actual interview so they can actually explore the city and see more than just the airport and your office.