employee keeps sighing heavily, convincing coworkers I don’t want to make a career out of my hobby, and more

by Alison Green on August 29, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My employee keeps sighing heavily

I have a new person working for me who is doing a good job with the work but is constantly sighing and it’s annoying me to no end. I’m not sure how to approach it because I don’t want to make them feel bad, but I find the sighing to be distracting and unnecessary. Full disclosure, it might be a trigger for me because my emotionally abusive parent used to walk around the house sighing. What would be the best way to approach this?

Start with, “Is everything okay? I’ve noticed you sighing a lot and wasn’t sure if you were frustrated or how to read that.”

Who knows, there might be something going on that you should hear about, so it’s a useful question to start with. But if the sighing doesn’t reflect frustration or something similar, it’s a way to flag that they’re doing it, it’s audible, and it’s potentially sending distress signals they don’t intend.

If that doesn’t solve it, then it’s trickier. In theory if it continues, you could say, “I’m sorry to ask, but any way to rein in the sighing? It can be pretty distracting.” But that feels a little too close to “breathe differently” for my comfort. On the other hand, if I were annoying someone in this way without realizing it, I’d want them to tell me. But if you do mention it that way, you really only get that one shot at it. If it continues afterwards: headphones when you’re particularly aggravated.

2. Coworker said I was rude for not talking about my age or religion

I worked in a large delivery warehouse and was assigned to work one side of a large conveyor belt to sort packages. A coworker of my same level who I hadn’t met before (older woman, probably in her 50s) was assigned to work across from me. She introduced herself to me and we started an initially positive conversation about how our days had been going.

Eventually she asked how old I was (the conversation was not about age and I had not asked how old she was). I said I was over 21 (a requirement for the job). She asked exactly how old I was, and I said I’d rather not say. She then asked if I was Christian (also a topic never mentioned in the conversation) and I again said I’d rather not say. She asked why I wouldn’t answer this question, and I said I didn’t feel comfortable discussing religion in the workplace.

My responses offended her and she said I was being disrespectful to her. I said I didn’t understand how I was disrespecting her, and she responded that I was being rude to my elders since I wouldn’t answer what she saw as simple questions. I just said okay and didn’t speak to her anymore, but she continued to rant about me and youth for some minutes and had an attitude whenever she had to interact with me physically for the sorting.

I know her response was not reasonable, but could my actions reasonably be interpreted as rude? I wonder if she interpreted “I don’t feel comfortable discussing religion in the workplace” as me criticizing her for bringing it up, which was not my intent. Also, is there a less inflammatory way to word the above and decline to share information that I consider private and irrelevant to my job duties?

No, you weren’t rude! She was rude. It’s one thing to ask how old someone is — it’s not the most polite, but fine, people do it — but she needed to drop it once you declined to answer. Her pushiness about religion is even more inappropriate. And for her to then claim that you were being disrespectful for not answering her invasive questions is absurd, as is framing this as some sort of “respect to your elders,” a concept that has no relevance at work (not that she would be entitled to answers outside of work either).

For someone so ill-mannered herself, it’s pretty ironic that she has such wrong-headed ideas about what politeness entails.

As for other ways you could have responded to her questions, I like asking, “Why do you ask?” Depending on her answer to that, you could have then responded, “Oh, I don’t talk about religion (or age) at work.” But this woman wasn’t going to be reasonable or polite no matter how you said it so please don’t second-guess yourself.

3. How do I convince my coworkers I don’t want to make a career out of my hobby?

I was recently honored to be invited to show off the fruits of thousands of hours of part-time hobby work on a creative project — think a “jam band” getting minor critical attention thanks to an appearance at a local festival — and both my immediate and larger team at work know about it. I keep getting questions about why I even work there when I can do that sort of creative work, none of them realizing that “doing it” and “making a living from it” are two different things.

My director has been around the block long enough to know that there’s a big difference between having a fun hobby and a low-pressure 9-5 with good benefits and a pension vs trying to make a go of being a touring musician in my 40s, but the folks I work with all seem to think I’m on the verge of quitting. How can I make it clear that this is like my surgeon uncle selling his hand-made peppermills on Etsy? I’ve been laughing it off for weeks, but I really wish at this point that none of them had figured it out.

I don’t want anyone — particularly anyone higher up — to imagine that this side hobby is my “real thing,” no matter if I make some money at it or not. I’m concerned that it could now harm my chances of promotion into a slightly higher-paying low-pressure 9-5 because “everyone knows” I want to leave.

How are you responding when people make those comments? Ideally you’d respond with something like, “Ugh, no! There’s no faster way to kill the joy of a hobby than by trying to make money from it.” Alternately: “Most people don’t make serious money from this. It’s a hobby.” Or: “I’m very happy with having my job and a hobby on the side.”

If you’re really worried, you could share your concerns with your boss, stressing that you’re in your current career for the long haul, but I think you’re likely fine.

It’s so interesting how many people have lived for decades in this world but still believe it’s really easy to turn creative projects into full-time income. They’re the same people who encourage the office cupcake baker to open their own bakery, I suppose.

4. Letting an abuser resign instead of being fired

When I was at a previous organization, a coworker came to me about a sexual harassment issue they were having with their supervisor. I helped encourage them to go to HR, and ultimately, along with previous complaints, they decided to terminate. But instead of firing him, they gave him the option to resign. He went on to work at another public educational institution (not a school).

Why did they give him the option to resign? I understand they can’t speak disparagingly about him without proof, but it feels pretty awful that he was able to save face (I hated to see him lying about “his decision” to leave after the harm he caused, as did my coworker!) and was also able to get a new job where he could be in a similar leadership position to cause harm again.

Yes, this is what allows harassers and other abusers to move from company to company without any real consequences to their careers, while foisting the problem off on one unsuspecting organization after another.

As for why it happens … sometimes organizations find it “cleaner” to handle it this way, which really just means easier for them. The risk of scandal or controversy is higher with a firing, and sometimes they worry about legal pushback from the person being fired. In general, quiet resignations tend to be easier and safer moves for risk-averse employers. When the issue is something performance-based (like someone who simply couldn’t do the job) and the person offers to resign instead of being fired, it often does make sense to accept that, and sometimes employers apply that principle across the board even when they shouldn’t.

Beyond that, it often stems from misplaced sympathy — “he’s a good guy who made a mistake” / “we shouldn’t destroy his career over this” / “he deserves a chance to start over somewhere else” / etc. … with comparatively little concern for the lives and careers he might derail at the next place.

Related:
should we let an employee resign instead of being fired?

5. Can a company make you pay for mistakes?

A couple of years ago, I started a new job. My department was responsible for managing multiple offices, including opening new offices in other cities. As we were working on a new office opening, I started getting escalating emails from the owner (a notoriously aggressive attorney) saying that the firm would not be financially responsible for any mistakes that were made. I received similar messages regarding desks that were scratched, chairs that were broken, etc.

I interpreted this as saying I might be personally pursued financially if a mistake or accident caused the company to lose money or physical assets. I had heard of a past employee in my position who had to write a check for an expensive coffee machine after accidentally ordering one extra that was not able to be returned. (They were also subsequently fired.) This was a major reason I very quickly left the company.

Some amount of asset loss is a normal part of doing business, no? How do companies typically handle a situation where an employee mistake costs them money? Is there ever a situation where an employee could reasonably be held financially liable?

If you’re exempt, your employer can’t dock your pay for mistakes (with the exception of serious safety violations). If you’re non-exempt, federal law does allow employers to dock your pay for mistakes, as long as the deduction doesn’t take you below minimum wage for that pay period. However, many states forbid it or heavily restrict it (for example, restricting it to things like reimbursing cash register shortages) so if you were non-exempt, you’d want to google the name of your state plus “dock pay for mistakes” (no quotes).

More importantly, your boss was a huge dick and you were right to get out as soon as possible. Part of employing humans is accepting that some mistakes are a normal part of doing business. (Scratched desks?!)

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  1. Nodramalama*

    LW4 there are a few reasons why work might accept a resignation. It might be essentially part of the agreement – they might not have the evidence required to fire him, or they may be concerned about reprisals. I’m never sure how it works in the U.S but in Australia it would if not entirely remove, drastically reduce the risk he could make an unfair dismissal claim.

    1. mmm*

      There’s no such thing as an unfair dismissal claim in the US. You can sue if you’re fired for discriminatory reasons but not just because they didn’t have enough evidence for firing you.

      1. Excel Gardener*

        In this case it was at a public institution though, and the public sector often does have much stricter rules about hiring and firing than apply to the private sector.

        1. Clisby*

          For example, I live in SC, one of the most union-unfriendly states in the country. Public school teachers are not unionized, but they do work under contracts, and have the right to contest a firing and demand a hearing before their local school board. If the school board upholds the firing, the teacher can appeal to the local county court.

          If this employee had happened to be a public school teacher, and the school district wanted to fire him for sexual harassment, they better be able to prove it.

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            Also, “Greyhound therapy’ is just easier in so many ways (or how my husband’s school got a certain principal they really should have done a bit more due diligence on).

              1. Chili*

                Sticking someone on a metaphorical Greyhound bus to get rid of a troublemaker instead of dealing with them.

      2. Meicho Shimbun*

        It’s true enough that supervisor in this letter couldn’t sue simply because they didn’t have enough evidence of the harassment. But it would be at least remotely within the realm of possibility for him to file a lawsuit alleging that they fired him without investigating the allegations because he is male, for example. That probably wouldn’t be a winning lawsuit, but the institution would still have to defend against it, which could take years, costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, and subject all the victims to a lot of intrusions they didn’t necessarily ask for.

        In situations like this, it’s also prudent and decent of an employer to take into account that the most righteous course of action isn’t always the safest one for the victim. It’s infuriating to see someone like this bounce from one job to the next. But if you fire him, you have a very angry man who might be thinking to himself, “I’ve been disgraced, and it’s all because of LW4’s Colleague, whose bodily autonomy I have no regard for as it is.”

    2. JSPA*

      Essentially all jobs in the US are “at will” which means a) no contract (or in any case, no binding contract) and thus b) that they don’t need to give a reason for firing you. And thus in turn c) the onus is on the fired employee to prove that they were fired for one of the few unacceptable reasons.

      The highest level positions do, these days, often have some sort of “golden parachute,” which pays out handsomely upon leaving under specified circumstances. The rationale for a golden parachute originally had to do with things like mergers and buy outs, where it’s important for the top people to be willing to help put themselves out of a job, if that’s to the greater good of the company. These days, it seems more like a “no harm, no foul” clause that top execs get, even if they leave under a cloud. Some amount of severance is also not (too?) uncommon. In this case it’s possible that through negotiation they got out of paying both severance and unemployment in return for keeping quiet. Absent laws preventing this sort of coverup, publicly-traded companies have the argument that it is to the benefit of their stockholders, to avoid payouts and potential litigation (or they may have an arbitration clause that works out to the same thing). For a nonprofit, that argument largely falls apart, though (except that litigation is still expensive).

      Well I can’t in good faith tell the letter writer or their co worker to blow up their lives…talking to a journalist (anonymously) is always an option. Especially if the LW had any independent confirmation / saw or heard something that seemed “off,” heard of anything else borderline or bad from an independent source.

    3. el l*

      I’d put it this way: The vast majority of the time, it WILL boil down to a performance issue. And in those cases, resign rather than fire is the best path. It’s understandable though sadly not accurate/right that managers would think that’s how to always do it.

      This is one of the rare exceptions to that. Either fellow employees or (for lack of a better term) customers have had their physical safety compromised. That’s not performance, that’s compromising the core principle of it being safe and just work.

      Firing here is the only way to force a reckoning with that.

    4. Momma Bear*

      I wonder if it also has to do with whether or not the company pays unemployment. If you quit, it’s less likely.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I’m pretty sure in the US at least the company can dispute an unemployment claim if someone is fired for cause. I know that failure to show up at a job, stealing or similar would not be grounds for unemployment.

    5. SRB*

      I was going to make a similar point. In the UK where terminations must be fair (which is obviously a good thing most of the time) the process can be difficult and leaves the employer open to being taken to a tribunal. This can be worse for the victims who have to sit on the sidelines of a very uncertain process and potentially have to provide statements.

      I was trustee of a charity where we had to go through the process of firing the CEO, and I wish for everyone involved she’d resigned. One of the trustees became life-alteringly unwell during the process, almost certainly because of the stress. She threatened us and played employees off against us, all the way to the bitter end. Her behaviour resulted in us having to close the charity and make the staff redundant. A resignation would have been so welcomed.

  2. Zanshin*

    LW3 – I spent 40 years working part time as an RN to support my art habit (painting). When I started showing locally, my hospital co-workers kept saying I was too talented to be working there.
    I got tired of politely explaining the facts of life. So I asked them to come to shows. Finally I asked them if they’d like a price list.
    Totally effective at shutting it down.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes! I’m enjoying imagining the LW turning it around on her coworkers and asking what upcoming family events they might want to hire her band for.

    2. Daria grace*

      It’s very interesting how many people are sure other people will spend money on your thing when they themselves do not

        1. UKDancer*

          Also taste is very varied. There is a regular craft market near my office and the most popular stall sells what I consider incredibly ugly merchandise which I would in no world give house room to. It’s always mobbed and does incredibly good business because taste is so individual and different people buy different stuff.

          I spent money on a pair of dance shoes and one of my colleagues couldn’t believe what they cost.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            My city has a famous farmer’s market with a huge waitlist for vendors. Farmers from all over the state come to sell their vegetables, fruits, meats, jams, pies, honey, etc. There are flower-sellers and several bakeries. All the stalls are mobbed with customers all of Saturday morning.

            Then there is the Gourd Man. He has been there for over a decade and only sells hollow gourds. Presumably he is either independently wealthy or there are enough people who are willing to drop a hundred dollars on a gourd to cover the cost of the vendor spot.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Seriously, this.

        I sew as a hobby and I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve been told I could sell retro dresses. I’d have to charge about $400 for a cotton housedress to pay myself fairly and cover quality materials. Nobody I know is going to pay that.

        (I’ve also left several subculture-based online groups because people were always asking where they could find high-quality responsibly-produced clothing for cheap. The answer to that is that you make it yourself. It’s the “good, fast, cheap” of clothing: You can have two of those qualifiers at the same time, at most, but not all three.

        1. Chas*

          Another agreement here! I do cross stitch at work and people always ask if I’ve ever thought of making things to sell, but I’ve never seen anyone selling cross-stitch at a price that would make even minimum wage if you took the cost of materials and the time taken to do the cross-stitch into account, let alone the extra bother of actually selling them. (I suspect the sellers I’ve seen are probably just doing it as a way to recoup the material costs of their hobby + get a little extra, rather than as a way to make a living.)

          I think that, even though they’ll see me working on the same design 3-4 hours a week for months before they’re finished, they don’t realise how long some of these crafts actually take to do.

          1. MsM*

            A lot of Sims players complain it’s a terrible hobby to give your Sims if you want to make a bunch of money, but what this is telling me is that it’s actually one of the more realistic options.

            1. Quill*

              I would say that most of the craft options on the sims are optimistic compared to the real world in terms of being able to reliably sell pieces for more than you spent to make them – everyone talks about not being able to cover labor and materials but time spent maintaining an etsy presence, listing items, and photographing them, not to mention packing for shipping, is another cost of craft items!

          2. Old Woman in Purple*

            Yeah, I’ve been making quilts for 45 years; Exact same scenario! No-one is going to pay 5 digits for a basic (tho well-made) patchwork quilt for a king-size bed.

            Folks see the Walmart specials for $300 and think that is expensive/more than enough. (Walmart specials, et al are generally made [badly] in sweatshops in Asia by people making pennies per hour.)

          3. Lime green Pacer*

            Yes, some folks who sell crafts do it “to make the hobby pay gor utself”, they aren’t trying to do more than cover the cost of supplies. My husband makes fancy paracord bracelets; selling just one brought in enough cash to buy supplies for 2 or 3 more.

            1. I Have RBF*

              This. I have a side business, in part selling crafts I’ve made. I never expect it to pay my bills. It pays enough to almost sustain itself and pay for my attendance at shows to sell. I maybe gross $2000/year.

              1. Artemesia*

                My oldest friend was very dedicating at crafting — she did things like make really beautiful scarves from old silk kimonas that she would buy by the bale, and she would get cute ideas for jewelry and make that. I think in her best year she made about 10K and generally her hobby work is what paid for their travels each year — and no one else I know has made anywhere near that from crafting.

                My mother donated some lovely ornaments she made to a fund raiser and they sold them for less than the cost of the beads it took to make them — little bead bells.

            2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

              This is how my “small business” works – we are actually a small business, but what we make covers the expense of the business itself, including convention fees and supplies and hotel stays for said conventions.

          4. Crafter with a real day job*

            I sometimes sell my knit, crochet, or embroidery but the price is always based on my material/shipping costs and a bit extra for my time. It’s never meant to be a legitimately profitable endeavor. I just like to make things and don’t have enough room in my house for everything I make! Folks have told me that I should do minimum wage for the time it took to complete the project, but I am fairly sure that would results in prices that were way beyond anyone’s comfort zone.

            1. GythaOgden*

              Agreed. Same with my mum and dad — they’re retired and run the local horticulture show, which takes a year to organise. (The show just happened for this year and in about October they’ll be meeting again to discuss next year’s event.) If they took a wage from it they would have to charge an inordinate amount of money on the gate, which people wouldn’t pay. But it’s a great local fair with a long tradition, and it provides a venue for other local traders and charities to run their own businesses, and they’ve won national awards for the voluntary work of keeping it going while not taking any form of compensation for it.

              I help out and I do a bit of undercover market research for my parents, but the biggest thing this summer for people was that so many previous events had been rained off or had low turnout because of the weather that a lot of people were scrambling to make up the difference. Luckily we had a lot of people and stable, warm weather and I hope the artisans who do make stuff to sell as a proper biz achieved what they needed to make. And the pillow I got from them was worth the money more than some tat off Amazon which actually doesn’t cost much less.

              Me…I’m an artist, not a manufacturer. I can make one stuffed animal or cross-stitch picture for my own pleasure and I have had offers from people to buy stuff from me that were only really token payments, but flattering nonetheless and thus I accepted. But I can’t just churn out the same thing over and over so everyone can have one; I get bored very easily and the quality starts to slip as a result. However, when someone does see value in your work, I’m not going to be too fussy.

              One guy when I studied out in Poland saw me painting a rather twee picture of a Polish style landscape with two Chagall-like lovers in the foreground. He asked me if I could have it done by midnight because he was off to Lviv in Ukraine on the bus in the small hours of the morning and liked it so much that he wanted to give it to his friends as a gift. (Coincidentally the figures looked like the people he was going to give the painting to. It was an honest to god coincidence!!) I got it done for him — the payment wasn’t huge but it was a favour for someone who really thought my work was good enough to be given as a gift to someone who didn’t know me in a country I’d never been to.

              Sometimes it’s not even about the money — it’s about the confidence you gain from other people seeing value in your handiwork. That can be really encouraging for an artist just starting out — someone paying even the equivalent of £2 for your work is basically saying /I like this enough to give you part of my earnings for this month/. It’s like when writers query agents: the agent is looking for signs in a letter that other people have assigned direct value to the work of that artist, even if it’s a relatively small amount.

              So I’m not going to lie. People are welcome to buy stuff from me that I’d have made for my own amusement anyway. I’ve accepted commissions as well, mostly for drawing work where all I need is paper, pen and a scanner to digitise the finished result. To me being paid for art is about building up a reputation and creating for the love of it, and so I don’t quite see things the same way. Over time, you accumulate enough of a reputation if you’re really conscientious about the business aspect of it and improving technique, as well as your tastes in art coinciding with the tastes of an audience with money. So my philosophy is create for the love of it and being able to sell stuff is a bonus.

          5. Dahlia*

            I sell custom embroidery sometimes at a decent price and it works only because I do it as a hobby anyways and don’t have other income.

          6. Reluctant Mezzo*

            I had a friend who did beadwork at lunch for Native American shows (she was a member of the tribe) and made it well known she was barely getting minimum wage for her time with that.

        2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          And I always add that you can have any two except good and fast, because quality takes time.

        3. Rocket Raccoon*

          I also do fiber arts and my standard reply is “I only sew for love, not money.”

          Nobody has ever come up with counter to that one.

          1. Office Chinchilla*

            One of my favorite jokes is “knitting is like sex. If I like you and think you’ll appreciate it, you get it for free. If not, there’s not enough money in the world.” I think this applies to many crafting hobbies.

            1. GythaOgden*

              Eh…not sure I agree.

              I do it because I love it, sure.

              If you want to pay me for it, be my guest (i.e. a relationship where you’re taking me as I am and loving it enough to move in with me, marry me and help with the bills).

              If you expect me to knit for you for money…then yeah, maybe we’re not on the same wavelength and you should look into a commercial knitwear company, because you probably can’t afford what I’d need to charge (a single jumper uses about 7-8 100g balls of yarn, and decent acrylic craft wool starts at £5 per 100g, never mind the cost of the real results of alpaca grooming which can be double or triple that price on a good day) just for the materials, and given my skill the sleeves would be of slightly different lengths and there’d be lots of weird dropped stitches all over the place. For the £40+ it would cost for a /basic acrylic ‘muppet fur’ garment, you can get a really nice proper wool or wool-mix jumper from Marks and Spencer or Next or whatever your local upmarket high street shop is.

              The analogy thus falls apart fairly quickly.

              I am an artist; I don’t do it for money and I do one-offs rather than manufacture stuff. But if you offered me cash for an item I’d already made, I’m not turning you down! It means I’m actually making something that someone else wants to buy, and who am I to say no?

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, by the time I’m done I’ve put so much time and effort into this piece that the only price at which I’m willing to sell it is free.

        4. PhyllisB*

          Yep. I love to bake and used to make and decorate a lot of cakes and cupcakes when my children were growing up. People were always telling me I should do it for a living. For one thing, I DO NOT have pastry chef skills, the second thing I was doing this for fun (and love.) Charging for it would have killed the joy for me.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Also all those pesky kitchen hygiene rules and so on — at some point it just becomes not worth it. And the old Regretsy blog had things to say about Etsy sellers who didn’t take enough care about contamination when trying to sell food online. It was a shame when they shut down but one thing I don’t miss are the pictures of cake with giant strands of hair all over the place.

            Mind you, a lady a few doors up from me at home makes proper commercial cakes to order and I’m just dying for an opportunity to patronise her and support local craftspeople. Sadly my mum now has pre-diabetes and is being very careful about her eating habits (she can eat sugar but she makes sure she’s had something a bit more substantial first and then doesn’t go wild, a far cry from the day I’d find her stashes of mint chocolate covered biscuits; she’s substituted omelette for sandwiches which works quite well given bread can actually have an adverse impact on her blood sugar), or I’d be brainstorming for her 75th birthday next year.

        5. Chili*

          This is a common issue for knitters. I am not a fast knitter but even if I was, a sweater is a LOT of work and the yarn is pricey. While I don’t blame people for not wanting to pay $200+ for a sweater, I’m not going to match retail prices for machine knit items. If I knit something for someone, it is a labor of love.

      3. HSE Compliance*

        This, 100%. I weave & design knitting patterns on the side because it’s a fun creative outlet. I do put up the patterns for sale and occasionally sell items.

        I get asked a LOT 1) why I’m not just a fiber artist full time and 2) why I’m not at [insert random craft-adjacent show the person knows vaguely of]. 1) LOL. No one wants to even pay enough for a knitting pattern. You really think people want to pay what my shawls are worth? 2) I’ve attempted a few, and with what I make, it’s not worth it. The tables are at least a couple hundred dollars and people are often looking for little knickknacks (which I do not make) or they’re still not going to want to pay what my shawls are worth. There’s a reason I do very occasional custom orders. And nearly every time, the person will say “but people would BUY that, I know it!!!”…. but not a single one has taken me up on the offer to sell them something. I wouldn’t make anywhere close enough to live on, let alone match my current salary + benefit package.

        1. Michelle Smith*

          And it’s not even just about wanting. I have artist friends whose work I’d love to be able to afford to purchase, but I just don’t have the disposable income for that in this economy! So I just compliment their work when they post photos but I don’t make comments about wanting to buy, because I know I can’t pay what those things are worth.

          1. HSE Compliance*

            I have some really great people who are very supportive and love to see pictures – but they never push the “you should do this for work” narrative. I don’t care if they buy or not to be honest, but the constant pushing of selling when they don’t want to buy is tiresome. I know my stuff is expensive! Most people won’t buy, and that’s okay.

            I once made a very intricate baby blanket and was showing a picture to a fellow knitter at work. Our boss found me later and wanted to me make it in fingering weight yarn for a king size bed and offered me $50.

            2. Rex Libris*

              This. My spouse does amazing hand embroidery, but nobody is going to give her $500 for a pillowcase with a vines and leaves design on it.

            3. anon24*

              Oh man, I’m a sucker for a huge crocheted or knitted blanket done in the softest, fuzziest yarns with fancy light little stitches so that it will be somehow both very heavy and warm but also keep the yarn feeling soft and fuzzy and not tight and scratchy (idk, I can’t crochet or knit, so idk how it’s done).

              I have a few of these blankets that were gifted to me, and I dearly want another one, but I know that to even begin to fairly compensate someone to make me one would be hundreds to thousands of dollars and that is just NEVER going to happen with my income. Offering $50 would cover what, a tiny percentage of the yarn needed?

      4. Aggretsuko*

        Another point I make. “Are you going to pay $280 for a sweater?” No, the argument is always, “I can get that for $5 at Wal-Mart,” which is why you see $60 scarves on sale at craft fairs and nobody buying them.

        1. I Have RBF*

          I sometimes sell at craft fairs and flea markets. The number of times I’ve heard “I can get that for $5 at Wal-Mart” makes me want to puke. What I want to say is “Go shop at WalMart, then. I’m not a sweatshop worker in a third world country.” What I do is just give them a look of “Seriously? You expect me to price my stuff like Walmart?”

          1. La Triviata*

            A woman who had made a bedspread? blanket? had someone approach her for a duplicate in a different color. She quoted an actual price (for time and quality yarn) at several hundred dollars and the person who’d approached her said he could get the same thing at, yes, Walmart for $200. She cited the quality of yarn and the fact that the stitch was especially complicated and time consuming – broke it down into what the materials would cost and the time it would take with hourly price. She never heard from him again.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I suspect a lot of people don’t realize just how little money the average creative type makes from their art. The success stories are what make the news – the person who started a garage band, wrote a novel or made fancy cupcakes in their kitchen, and ended up a star / bestselling author / with a multi-million dollar business. That, and not realizing just how much work goes into a fancy cupcake or homemade quilts or paintings compared to what people are willing to pay for them.

      They don’t see the people who love their hobby but either barely break even or make a little pocket money and depend on a day job to pay rent and provide medical insurance. Not to mention that even quite successful, steadily publishing authors, for example, typically have a day job or a spouse that has a steady income and good insurance to support them, because they make so little off each book.

      1. Grey Coder*

        100% this. I had a colleague who wrote a blog on a niche topic. He got a book contract and quit. He was sure this was going to lead to fame and fortune. His book was, I believe, moderately successful — he has published a couple of other ones since then — but he also works as a contractor doing his original job to pay the bills.

        1. UKDancer*

          Yes, writing books doesn’t pay well. My father gets the royalties from his late aunt’s works (textbooks on an academic subject). They are about £12-15 per year so we usually spend it on a bottle of wine and drink to her memory as a family. You have to be incredibly popular and / or good to make money writing.

          1. Rex Libris*

            We get royalties from a nonfiction book that is still in print. In a good year it’s about $35.

        2. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

          My mother-in-law has five published books and with the sales profit she makes just enough so the books pay for themselves, rather then coming out of her pocket. In fact, the reason she is able to publish them in the first place is because her high-paying job allows her to cover the publishing costs.

          1. Jellybeans*

            To be fair that sounds like she’s using a vanity publishing service. There are no costs associated with publishing through traditional publishing. Even if someone decides to self-publishing that is free, and actual proper trad publishing, you get an advance and the publisher also pays all the costs. The only way an author would need to pay a penny is if they choose vanity press.

            It’s cool that she wrote books but paying a vanity publisher doesn’t really count as “published” imo.

            1. GythaOgden*

              She could be self-publishing and using a paid-for editor and title design etc. Actually posting a book on Amazon is free, but some people do pay for editing and good layout and other things a publisher would do for her. Doing that an writing very quickly and efficiently to market in genres like romance, fantasy and SF keeps you visible in ebook markets like Amazon. It’s harder to get physical books into shops that way, but it’s not particularly hard to make a decent chunk of change if you invest in your writing and pay for editing. If the ultimate goal is to capture a readership and respond to their needs, self-publishing just becomes regular old publishing, with the author putting in their own capital and taking a risk on their own ability to be a success.

              They essentially become their own publisher, which is quite a considerable achievement. It takes a lot of self-awareness, honesty and objectivity about your own ability and what readers want, but a legit self-publisher often will contract out part of the process in order to build a professional product.

            2. Dahlia*

              This, remember – money flows to the author. That’s the number one rule of avoiding scams in publishing.

        3. Artemesia*

          I have an acquaintance who writes several very successful police procedural type series. Some of the series already have over 25 books in them. I remember decades ago when she was starting out and had several books that had done well, when she celebrated that she finally had enough royalties to renovate her kitchen. And few people have her level of success. (she has a lot more than that now, but then she was already very successful by most people’s lights and still it was not all that much money.)

      2. SarahKay*

        So true. Many years ago I made a cross-stitch sampler for the birth of my (much younger) brother. I picked it up from the framers on my way to work, so showed it to some co-workers, one of whom loved it and asked if he could commission me to make one for his new-born son.
        I said I could, but it was 40 hours work so it’d cost him the equivalent of a week’s wages – plus another £40-ish to get it framed. He rapidly lost interest.

      3. Emmy Noether*

        Yeah, most of us pay for our creative hobbies, nevermind making money (which is completely fine – no-one would question paying to play golf, or to buy video games, or to collect antique bottle openers).

        I sew and knit, only for myself and close family, and I often lose money* on a garment just counting materials, nevermind my time. (Because the fashion industry is messed up).

        *Well, depends on how you compare. If I sew myself a dress, it will cost more than a fast-fashion dress. It will cost less than a bespoke designer dress, which is what I choose to regard it as. But no-one would pay me those designer prices for it, so there’s no way to make money from it. Even if I wanted to, which I don’t.

        1. Tau*

          I also knit and have done some sewing, and it is frankly wild how the price of materials alone is often far higher than what you would pay for a finished garment in fast fashion. Admittedly, I get nicer yarn and avoid acrylic, but the price difference is still staggering.

          And as you point out, that’s not counting time. If I wanted minimum wage for my effort, we’d be getting well into the three digits for a hat. I don’t think anyone’s paying that.

          1. Constance Lloyd*

            Yes! I knit, and a (kind, well meaning) coworker told me I should sell sweaters full time. I told her that in order to replace my job, I would need to price each sweater at $3k, if not more. She has stopped making that suggestion.

            1. The OG Sleepless*

              I used to work with someone who was the most skilled knitter I have ever seen, and she said the same. Not to mention the people who would kidding-not-kidding say they should make her a baby gift. Ha, no.

          2. Hobbit*

            I have a friend who crochets and sells her stuff but it’s not to make a living. It’s because she likes to crochet but a person only needs so many blankets so it gives her something to do with her finished products and helps pay for her yarn habit.

            1. Pescadero*

              My mother switched from crochet yarn blankets to crochet thread lace tablecloths because she had gotten to the point where even her friends and family didn’t need any more of the blankets she was churning out once a week.

              A table cloth took more like 9 months.

            2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

              Gotta admit I was very excited when I found a charity that was looking for exactly the sort of things I like to knit and crochet. I get the fun of making things, they get to deal with storing and distributing the finished product. (Has the side benefit of short circuiting most people who think I should sell what I’m making, but I wouldn’t recommend doing that as a primary reason for doing hobby work for a charity.)

            3. PhyllisB*

              My church has a group of ladies who call themselves Crafty Christians. They make crocheted prayer blankets for anyone at the church to take when they feel a need. The church pays for their supplies.
              It is a comfort to those who want one, but I can’t help but suspect this is also a way to support their habit a bit.

              2. Dust Bunny*

                I give lap quilts away. They’re made from leftovers from my clothing and from fabrics people give me (which are not always to my taste), and they’re a nice way to try out a design idea without having to commit to keeping the results since I live in SE Texas where you really do not need a pile of quilts. So far I’ve kept three for myself out of twenty, and one of those I could give up if I needed a big gift for someone. I try to finish one a year, minimum, but since they aren’t usually full-size I’m more likely to do two or three.

            4. I Have RBF*

              That’s why I sell my crafts – to get them out of my house and pay for more materials. I can almost make it pay for itself, but it won’t pay my bills.

            5. Reluctant Mezzo*

              My aunt has a kiln and makes glass beads, but even going to shows she barely pays for materials.

          3. Lady Blerd*

            I’m a sewist and knitter. I can sew for less then commercially sold clothes, if I don’t count my hours of work, because I can source material for less. But I often say that if I’m wearing a sweater, it’s likely the most expensive item I’m wearing unless I lucked out in sourcing inexpensive, good quality yarn.

            1. Beka Cooper*

              My daughter’s school had a family night that I didn’t realize was partially supposed to be a fancy dance (for K-5. I rolled my eyes.) So we just picked her up from her afterschool program and popped right over to the family night activities. Some of the girls came in very fancy dresses, makeup, etc. Their moms too! So I felt a little bad that we missed the memo on the fancy clothes. But she was wearing a wool sweater that I knit her, so I said that she was probably wearing one of the most expensive outfits in the room.

          4. Emmy Noether*

            Ah yarn. I’ve learned my lesson not to buy cheap yarn, because if I spend hours upon hours with it, I want it to feel nice and stay nice. So splurge it is. And there are some beautiful, beautiful yarns out there. I now live 5 minutes from a nice yarn store, and I sometimes go in there just to pet the silk/cashmere.

            I recently found a source of nice recycled yarn that is reasonably priced. Don’t know how it holds up yet – staple length and therefore pilling can be a problem with recycled fibers.

          5. Opossum My Possum*

            Exactly this – I am knitting socks for my wife, and I’m not exactly counting hours, but they’re probably going to take at least 30 hours of work to make the pair. NOBODY would buy socks for 30 hours of skilled-wage labor! And that’s not even counting the cost of the nice wool sock yarn. I’m making them because knitting socks is fun and I love my wife!

        2. MK*

          Even the people who manage to get customers to pay them these prices often end up in trouble (I am thinking of a story of a woman who made wedding dresses making the rounds of YouTube). An amateur dressmaker, even if they are amazingly talented, isn’t the same as a professional designer; they are used to working with customers, they can turn out consistent quality, they can work faster and keep to a deadline, they presumably have resources to deal with all sorts of problems. And I assume
          they have contacts to source materials wholesale at cheaper prices.

        3. Olive*

          I’ve split the difference by knitting for friends at cost. They pay for the materials and I give them the gift of my time and labor. I’ve found that since I started doing this, friends have actually valued the gift more than before.

          I have a similar philosophy with making knit baby sweaters for craft shows. Even though I’m not making money because of the time cost, I’m getting rid of yarn leftovers from other projects while recovering the material costs. I know that some people love a huge yarn stash, but it stresses me out!

        4. sweaterme*

          Yes. I sew. It’s more expensive than fast fashion, however about half my wardrobe is over ten years old. Some nice stuff is older. I’ve gotten bigger and passed some nice stuff on to my kid.

          1. allathian*

            I hear you. I hate shopping for clothes so I’ll wear mine until they wear out or I get too big for them. My office has a casual dress code, so I can wear whatever I’d otherwise wear out of the house to go to there. I also drip-dry my clothes so they’ll last longer than if you use a drier. I have a couple good quality tops that are more than 10 years old and look new enough for me to wear at the office. So I don’t mind paying 80-100 bucks for a top knowing that I’ll get 10 years’ use out of it. Ultrafast fashion should be banned, it’s a horrible waste of resources.

        5. Chili*

          In addition to enjoying making things, certain activities double as stress release (stabbing my embroidery) or as OT/PT for my hand tremors (knitting). The latter would be expensive even with my insurance, so that evens out in my mind.

      4. metadata minion*

        Yep. And if I wanted to make a living out of any of my assorted hobbies, I’d have to do things like marketing and website maintenance and making whatever sold well instead of whatever I feel like making. I don’t want to do those things.

        1. Learn ALL the things*

          That’s the biggest thing that non-artsy people don’t realize when they recommend Turing an artistic hobby into a career. It’s one thing to play the piano in your home for fun. It’s an entirely different thing to book concerts and put together marketing materials and arrange for ticket sales. Making money and making art are two fundamentally different skills.

        2. londonedit*

          There’s a cosy BBC daytime programme called Make It At Market (sort of a Repair Shop spin-off – it’s presented by Dominic Chinea, the Repair Shop metalwork expert) which is all about helping craftspeople to turn their skills and products into viable businesses. Most of these people have something they’re really good at – stained glass, or willow weaving, or jewellery making, etc etc – and they want to turn it into a profitable venture, but most people have no realistic idea how to go about doing this. The programme helps them identify a volume piece (something they can make easily in larger volumes, that will be a regular seller and keep the money coming in), and a high-end piece (something more bespoke that will bring in a larger lump sum every now and then), and there are experts offering advice on how to streamline production, reduce their outgoings, and on all the other things they need to do like marketing and social media and getting their work out there so people know about it. It’s obviously a fluffy daytime TV programme but it is interesting and it really does show the leap between ‘I enjoy making clay jewellery and selling a few bits’ and ‘I have a business making and selling my own clay jewellery’.

          1. Paint N Drip*

            That sounds cool! BBC and other UK/EU content seems to value craftwork more than the American programmers

      5. Dust Bunny*

        I mean, artists used to survive because they had wealthy patrons. Find me a wealthy patron and, yeah, I’ll do my hobbies full-time.

        Otherwise, they had day jobs. Or inheritance.

          3. MigraineMonth*

            There are countries where making art is a government job. Not really in the US, though.

          1. Quill*

            Also a lot of (specifically portrait artists) also sold a lot of easier to produce commercial art, such as woodcuts/prints, because you eventually run out of crowned heads of europe to paint oils of.

      6. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        LW3 I think another part of it is that for some people there’s no higher compliment in our capitalist society than “this is worth money”.

        3. MigraineMonth*

          Very true. In a lot of cases, you can just say “thank you” and move on rather than trying to teach them the economics of small craft businesses.

      7. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        There are too many films/series where women start out baking cakes for neighbours and end up running a successful chain of bakeries or restaurants.

      8. Singer/songwriter*

        I am a singer/songwriter who decided to bite the bullet and put my music on streaming services.

        You need to pay a distributor for that and the fractions of pennies that I earn for my music don’t even cover the distribution fees (I lose money every year).

        I don’t do it for the money, I do it because I love making music and I share it because hopefully people out there hear my music and feel a connection to it.

    4. Tiny Soprano*

      Yeah I’m in opera (as the name suggests) and there isn’t enough work going around to make a living off it these days. People understand that, usually, but then are taken aback that I don’t get into fashion instead (I sew as a hobby, and am moderately well known for making my own gowns).
      I always wonder who they think in our already skint industry is keen to pay eight grand for a gown! Because that’s what I would need as a minimum.

      1. opera fan under 90 lol*

        Thank you for persisting! I love opera and it saddens me that it doesn’t get the recognition it deserves!

    5. Rebecca*

      Yeah, I do stand up comedy in the bars in my city after work. When I told people I was quitting my low paying job and going out on my own, they all assumed I meant I was making a go of making enough money telling dirty jokes in bars to pay the rent.

      None of them have ever been to a show.

    6. Smithy*

      I think a huge part of taking a hobby into a business is the reality of becoming a small business owner/self employed. And not matter the talent or love at the hobby/activity, if it’s not matched with at least a willingness to become proficient at the small business side – the talent/love won’t magic the business side into being.

      I’m a huge fan of vintage clothes, thrifting, etc. So regularly get from friends the whole thing about how I should go into business. When the reality is that the main thing I do not want to do is be a small business owner. No matter the goods in question.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Too many people who *do* try to make a go of it definitely do not consider the business element and then are surprised when everything fails. Doesn’t matter how talented you are if you can’t make sales, manage the books, understand marketing, etc.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I can’t even get my lazy self to list stuff on eBay. I am definitely not going to survive trying to market a craft business.

        2. Rocket Raccoon*

          My FIL was a plumber who ran a failing business for 40 years. He was a great plumber, terrible businessman. My husband took over and while he’s not as skilled with a torch, he’s a natural salesman and we’ve managed to do much better than FIL. It’s like 40% plumbing skills, 40% sales, 20% backend.

          1. JustaTech*

            My dentist recently sold his practice to go into semi-retirement where he will be working as a dentist for a local public health group and *not* having to act as a businessman. He was always really clear that he *hated* the “business” side of owning his practice (and having to deal with insurance on top of everything else sounds horrible), so even though he will be making a lot less money I can tell he’s so much happier.

      2. Former Admin Turned PM*

        People used to ask why I didn’t make a side business out of my knitting. I said that turning my knitting into business would mean that my hobby was now work, so I’d have to do non-profit governance work to relax.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Lol!

          I’m a software developer, and there is an expectation that computer programmers will all day (often crazy hours), then go home and do more computer programming as a hobby. Surely you have an app idea, or you’re volunteering for some open source project, or you at least maintain a blog, right?

          Remember, just because can get paid 6 figures to do something is no reason not to also do it for free.

    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The price list thing somehow always manages to drive the point home! I’m a pretty good knitter, so people are constantly telling me to sell what I make. When I ask them if they’d like to pay $2000 for a sweater, suddenly they no longer think this is a viable career path.

      1. JustaTech*

        Years ago I crocheted tote bags out of plastic shopping bags, and I got quite good at it, even making about a hundred (small ones) for my wedding. My in-laws, who were small business owners, really pushed for me to sell my bags as a side hustle.

        I was seriously considering it (the materials were cheap and I was very fast at making them) when I saw very similar bags for sale at Nordstrom for $30, made by Cambodian orphans who used plastic bags that had been picked out of rice paddies.
        There was no way I could compete with that price (and certainly not that story!), even if I didn’t charge for my time at all, so I gave the whole thing up.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          That’s very similar to how I feel about wooden furniture.

          Could I get that good with the woodwork? Probably. Could I learn the metalcraft for the custom parts? Possibly. Could I assemble a team to craft in volume to even out the ebb and flow? And constantly backfill positions? Could I outsource or learn HR? And embrace Marketing and Sales? And compete with the people already doing all this on price? Knowing that I have Ikea/Target/Walmart/Amazon on the other side of the market, who will sell you 1% of the quality at 10% of the price that should last maybe 24 months? Plus the mundane antiques that are almost given away and every bit as good as what I could craft?

          We haven’t even touched on what failure looks like, and how many small businesses do almost everything right and fail anyway?

          Okay, look, I just saved enough money building my own desk to break even on the cost of the tools and lumber to make it. More than that, it’s built to last at least a generation and it’s a custom piece, a design you don’t see in the stores. I didn’t have to cut any modern corners in the name of profit. That’s more than win enough for me. My day job complements that just fine.

    8. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      All the people who keep telling me I should make a living at certain hobbies are always the people I give stuff to as gifts. None of them realize if I was actually trying to make a living, they’d stop getting gifts.

    9. Laura*

      The price list idea is great!

      I do multiple hobbies that people have suggested I should monetize or quit my job to do full time (knitting, quilting, baking). I actually find it most frustrating when fellow makers in one sphere think I should monetize a different hobby. Like, you know you could never afford to support yourself through your weaving, why would you think my cupcake decorating is any different? The idea that I could easily replace a professional salary in an industry I’ve been working in for 20 years with income from a hobby-based job is ludicrous.

    10. SnookidyBoo*

      Hahaha, when I worked in the Public Art Department at my city there was a saying – ‘everybody loves art, until they have to pay for it’

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Art should be free!

        …and therefore presumably made by forest elves who sustain themselves on droplets of dew rather than human beings that need to pay for food and rent.

    11. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Another good way to shut it down is to talk about the stress of it: “Oh, heck, no, to have to be a good enough musician that people will pay me for it? No way. I really enjoy the fact that no one cares if I make a mistake when I perform, but if someone were paying me for it, I’d really have to up my game. Making music is a lot more fun when there’s no monetary reward for doing it.”

      Or: “There aren’t enough hours in the day for the number of paying gigs I’d need in order to make the money I need to live off of.” I think maybe folks don’t realize if you’re a performing musician that your hours are basically Thur-Sat nights and Sun afternoons. You can’t just work 70 hours a week at performing to try to make ends meet, because no one goes to concerts on a Tuesday morning. (That said, you do tend to get paid more as an hourly rate for performing than for, say, a 9-5 job, but it’s still not nearly enough until you get to a certain level.)

      I’m a part-time professional musician myself and back when I was trying to be full time, I did a LOT of teaching because I didn’t get enough gigs to pay me a living wage. When I talked about quitting teaching, people were like, “Oh, then you can just make all the money you need from your gigs!” and I was like, “Oh, no, if I tried to do that I’d be living in a box under a bridge.” Now, I realize this comment isn’t very PC, but it was the honest truth and still is, actually. I enjoy my paid gigs because I get to play challenging music with excellent musicians, but I’ve recently started playing chamber music just for fun with really good amateurs and it’s far more enjoyable than I imagined it would be back when I was trying to be a FT professional.

      I’m *also* a knitter and when people tell me I could sell my knitting I say, “Oh, no, my stuff is always a bit wonky and no one would be willing to pay the several hundred dollars for a sweater that doesn’t quite fit right and has a small hole where I couldn’t figure out how to get the sleeve to join correctly.”

      I guess what I’m saying is, I’m not enough of a perfectionist for people to want to pay me what I need to be paid for my arts and crafts. :-)

      1. Lynn*

        I agree with the chorus here. I do glasswork as a hobby (mostly fused, but some regular stained glass and some mosaic work too). And it is a lot of fun and I made some really nice stuff (if I do say so myself).

        Being forced to market, promote, etc. in order to make ends meet would be a horrid job for me. I am not a good salesperson or marketer, and I would hate that part of the job. I would really hate having to do craft fairs. And I would hate having to make 200 of the same thing that sells well instead of being able to really play around and experiment with the good chance of making something ugly or not popular enough to sell.

        I do have a glass friend who makes her living with it-and she is constantly hustling, selling, working, selling some more, working some more, selling again. She thrives on it and makes some really spectacular stuff-but I have seen what she puts into it and I would hate (hate, hate, hate) having to work the way she does.

    12. Aggretsuko*

      Explain how much you’d have to charge for your labor and time at minimum wage and people will shut up about how you should have a craft business (ask me how I know).

    13. Arglebarglor*

      My husband was a member of a relatively successful band signed to a major label in the 90s. He still had to work as a temp when not touring. Every once in a while he will get a royalty check for $300 or so. But he is now a psychotherapist and music is NOT his main source of income. His coworkers, when they find out about his past are like “OMG! Why don’t you still DO that!?!” and his response is, “I like to eat and have insurance!” I was a professional musician too, and quit to work as a nurse for the same reason. Music is like our poker game or bowling league– get together with friends a few times a month, play an occasional show at a local venue, and drink beer. Works for us!

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I think in the US, “health insurance coverage” is an extremely compelling reason why we shouldn’t chase our dreams (unless our dreams happen to be stable full-time jobs with health benefits).

    14. The Rural Juror*

      My father worked as a civil servant at a job he didn’t particularly like so he could get a good pension and retire early. That job he stayed at has allowed him to afford to now play his music full time. It was worth the 25 years of pushing through! He was just shy of 50 when he retired (knowing he’d need to supplement his income with paying gigs). He’s since given music lesssons, gone on tour, and most recently he’s slowed down and just played dinner gigs at local restaurants. He’s been very happy since retiring. But he definitely had a leg up with the pension and the ability to retire that early (and afford it!).

    15. WillowSunstar*

      I do nature photography and digital art as a hobby. I’ve tried selling my stuff online on sites like Redbubble and Zazzle. The most I ever made was a one time $500 order. Cannot pay rent on a regular basis with only one order of $500, sorry.

      Wish as as society, we valued creative things (and people) more. But unless you’re in Hollywood, you’re probably not going to make the big bucks.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Unfortunately, there’s a real supply and demand problem for the hobby market. As long as there are so many people who create for love and are willing to sell below cost, it’s hard to create enough demand at prices that could sustain a living.

        (Not to mention competition from companies that don’t respect worker’s rights or intellectual property, or from areas with lower cost-of-living.)

    16. Mgguy*

      I’ve been a hobbyist photographer for a long time.

      I do enjoy nice equipment and can afford it, so sometimes give off the impression of “pro”, and get a lot of compliments on my work. There’s also a whole thing too that some people will thing I get the results I get because of the gear I use, and it is true that sometimes it lets me do things less expensive stuff would, or handles difficult light better, or can shoot faster when needed, or whatever, but at the end of the day the result you see is 99% the result of work I did before I pushed the shutter button. There’s also this funny thing too that people will think all the kneeling down, climbing on things, and endlessly moving around to frame a shot will think it’s strange, but then wonder why they like my photo so much better than what they took at the same time on their phone.

      And yes, I’ve been told I should sell my services. I did a few times back in college. It’s too much stress, and the money isn’t there. I refuse to take money for my work.

      There’s also a real problem now in photography that people think digital is “free” to shoot. With film it’s easy to calculate a fixed cost per shot(film+processing divided by 36 or 12) but even when I exclusively used film it was a small part of the cost of a pro job. Of course these days, if you wanted to work as a pro on film, film is ridiculous, but the film for a paying job would still be a fraction of what I’d charge in that hypothetical scenario. With digital, the costs are a bit less obvious-even though cameras last a long time for, they do have a finite life(I’ve never worn one out, just decided I wanted an upgrade). Batteries and memory cards are another one. I wouldn’t do a paid job without probably figuring one battery/camera/2 hours plus some extras for insurance, and for the cameras I use some of the batteries are north of $200. The sky is the limit on what you want to spend on memory cards, but the last few I’ve bought have been $100 or so each. Then there’s the software, especially now that a lot of them are subscription based. That reminds me, too, I need to go back to hunting for an oddball filter that’s no longer made and I really need by next weekend…and is probably going to cost me $150 or so.

      The bigger picture too is that with digital, the back end work takes time. A good desktop with two big monitors(more money, although great for working from home for my day job also) makes things faster, as does being more selective about what you shoot rather than machine gunning, and then learning the quirks of your particular camera so you can reliably batch process, but the time per photo can be anything from 5 seconds(to look at it and say “yep, nothing to do here) to 20 minutes(to make some major adjustments or run some more complex corrections on it). In a rare case I’ll spend an hour or two just on one-taking the “best” I was able to get for something I was able to take and ending up with a half dozen adjustment layers, all manually masked. That’s an outlier, but it’s still there, and if I were charging I’d charge for all of that.

      I’ve found a niche where I can make some money. I’ve kind of fallen into repairing older studio flash gear and some other pro grade flash stuff. It combines a few other interests of mine(electronics and electronics repair) and my general love of tinkering. I’m pretty good at what I do, but it’s more that I do enjoy it, and don’t have a ton of competition-I do stuff where either the manufacturer is no longer in business or no longer supports a particular product. A lot of general camera repair shops don’t touch flash gear(you have to keep your head screwed on straight when working on it). I’m not retiring on the money from that any time soon, though-not the least of which because there’s not much demand for the services I offer(but I do have some long-term customers for whom I almost always have at least one piece, and have spent money making sure I have loaners for them if I think a repair will take a while).

  3. Jay_Ess*

    I understand and commiserate with being triggered by regular heavy sighing. However, I actually heavily sigh (and am asked about it frequently!) myself. Unfortunately I just subconsciously hold my breath when I’m doing deeper thinking, and then the sighing is a natural result of that. I’ve met other people for whom this is also common and I really can’t think of a fix for it.

    1. Catherine*

      I also sigh a lot–it’s caused by my asthma, so there’s no way for me to fix it. These days I try to mention it proactively if I’m going to spend extended office time with another person.

      2. Miss Chanandler Bong*

        I was about to say that. It’s actually because those of us with asthma don’t remember to take enough deep breaths, so then we sigh to just get oxygen in.

        When I was a teenager, my mom used to get mad at me because she thought I was giving her attitude when I was signing. I told her later that most of the time I was not given how bad my asthma was at the time…I was just trying to get oxygen to my brain, lol.

        1. Library Anoshe*

          Same for me! I actually had my supervisor stop and ask me if everything was okay. Which puzzled me, as everything was fine with work. Then she said I was sighing deeply. I have asthma and was dealing with trying to recover from a chest infection as well, so I would occasionally take extra deep breaths to try and test my capacity, see if I needed my inhaler, just “stretch” my lungs by breathing to the bottom. I wasn’t sighing out of anything other than physical stress.

      3. cottagechick73*

        I am going to second this. I tend to sigh a lot if my asthma is bothering me but not enough for me to consciously recognize that my asthma is flaring up, kind of like a stealth symptom. It may take me a while to realize that I am being the “queen of sighs” (a family nickname), but then I can look around me for the cause and/or step up my asthma treatment to bring it back under control.

    2. Aphrodite*

      Another sigher here. I think it must just feel good to my body. I got hassled for it by two different supervisors who were convinced it meant I was unhappy at the job or what I was doing at that particular moment. Sometimes, yes, that was true. But I do it at home too. That deep breath is a nice thing for me to do and me to feel. Thankfully, I have had my own office for a few years now and I sigh to my heart’s content. I never annoy myself. (And for the record I am never bothered by others’ deep sighs.)

      1. Anon for this*

        That does seem different from the person above who linked sighing to asthma. There are plenty of things that do indeed feel nice that we just … don’t … do constantly in open plan offices out of respect for other people? I have allergies but wouldn’t blow my nose all day for example.

        1. JSPA*

          It’s of course your right to walk around with a stuffed up nose, if you’re more worried about how others perceive you, than your own bodily needs. And some offices do seem more prone to penaluzing people for having human bodies.

          But this is far from a universal calculus!

          “Being able to breathe without distress” is something one can reasonably aspire to, even in the workplace.

          Besides, simply because something “feels nice” doesn’t mean it isn’t also, to some degree, involuntary.

          There are times when it’s difficult or nearly impossible to suppress a sneeze, a yawn, a stretch, a burp or a sigh.

          If you’re meeting royalty, or signing an international peace accord, presumably you make that effort.

          But all day, every day, in a basic job? That’s a very high level of bodily self-policing. One that’s very clearly not automatically required of many people, in many jobs.

          1. Anon for this*

            Huh I guess I just see some degree of body policing as inevitable when existing in public. I wouldn’t even call it that really. More just awareness that everything everyone does has a ripple effect and to “splash” others as little as possible. It’s things like holding your shopping bag in your lap on the subway so you’re not blocking another seat. Just normal adult stuff.

            To me it’s just – someone else honking and snorting all day would be pretty disgusting so it doesn’t take much imagination to think hmm maybe nose blowing is more of a hallway / restroom activity.

            1. BreathingIsGood*

              Wow, how fortunate for you that you don’t suffer from allergies or respiratory disease. Many of us are not so fortunate and would never get any work done if we had to leave to sneeze or cough or …you know… breathe. It’s not something we do once a day or even once an hour

          2. Jellybeans*

            “It’s of course your right to walk around with a stuffed up nose, if you’re more worried about how others perceive you, than your own bodily needs.”

            That’s an extraordinary way of framing “have basic social awareness when it comes to handling bodily functions in public, instead of acting like a feral wild boar.”

            I honestly don’t understand this culture that’s developed on AAM of “I have the right to do literally anything I want at any moment and anyone who stops me, speaks to me, or tries to make me do my job is engaging in an act of oppression.”

            And let’s please stop exploiting therapy words to frame wanting to ignore basic human standards.

        2. Juniper*

          The difference is that breathing is largely involuntary and must happen. If your example had been sniffing, then the parallel may be more apt to draw, but it is very difficult to blow your nose without being very concious of the act of doing it. To control your breathing you must first dial in on an automatic bodily function and then override your body’s natural way of doing it.

          But to your point, I would hope that if you had a runny, stuffy nose, that you would blow it! Seems like a very reasonable thing to expect from a coworker.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            This is interesting because whenever I’ve been around people who teach deliberate breathing techniques on yoga or drama lessons (aimed at making you feel calm, aids you to concentrate but also speak more effectively) they always say that babies breathe deeply and perfectly but we get self conscious about it or somehow stop doing it “correctly”
            Apparently most of us become shallow breathers who breathe from the chest instead of the diaphragm which isn’t ideal.

            1. Breathconscious*

              Yeah, I can relate. A classmate remarked many years ago on my loud breathing and it made me really self conscious about any breathing related noises I make. Now I know it’s just down to how my airways are shaped. I did end up breathing more shallowly (it’s a bit quieter), but then of course would sigh and yawn more to make up for the lack of oxygen. Sometimes you can’t win.

            2. Juniper*

              Good point! I would also imagine that tension shapes breathing patterns as much as being self-conscious. I notice that when I’m in a period of stress, whether accute or chronic, my shallow breathing is one of the first tells.

          2. Anon for this*

            Yes it is a bit more like sniffing. For me feeling the urge to sniff is my cue to go out to the hallway / restroom and actually blow my nose. To be fair, when I work at home I’m collapsed on the couch, getting up to stretch , taking to my pet…. So I expect to make some adjustments to not be a huge weird distraction in public lol.

            I find by making minor adjustments consistently I can sort of retrain to behave by default in a socially acceptable manner (mostly) and just kind of assumed everyone also worked on that too.

        3. AllergiesSuck*

          How do you not blow your nose all day? Not to be gross, but I usually have 5-10 seconds to blow my nose or I either drip or involuntarily blow it anyway but without covering up and in an explosive way.

          1. SarahKay*

            This!
            Not to mention if ‘Anon for this’ is sniffing rather than blowing their nose then I’d find that a thousand times more irritating and would be at their desk offering a tissue.

          2. Jellybeans*

            Have you thought of investigating the option of trying allergy meds? Or seeing a doctor? Needing to blow your nose constantly all day (unless you have a cold) is really not normal.

        4. E*

          This breathing technique that ‘feels nice’ is how I regulate my anxiety. If I didn’t feel free to do deep breathing in my nose and out my mouth (which sounds like a sigh) when needed, I would end up in an anxiety spiral which takes a lot of mental energy to end. We all do things that annoy others, it’s just part of being human in a community.

        5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          I would. What else am I supposed to do? Stay home? Go to the bathroom every five minutes? Wear a mask and just let my nose run and my face get covered in snot?

        6. Unkempt Flatware*

          If you need to blow your nose all day, then go ahead. We have human bodies and human bodies make noise and secret fluids.

        7. MigraineMonth*

          There are a lot of things I try to regulate around other people so as not to be annoying (farting, slurping, audible yawning), but blowing my nose has never been one of them!

          Maybe it would be different if I honked like a cartoon character while blowing my nose, but in general I consider the small amount of noise from blowing my nose an acceptable trade-off for my ability to breathe/not drip snot everywhere.

      2. Lauren*

        I sigh a lot, too, and I’ve been told at my job to work on not doing it.

        But it’s a stress release thing for me. It helps me refocus and move on from some that was particularly tiresome or irksome. I’m not doing it consciously, for the most part.

        My mom did it a lot, too, and it was the same for her.

        I’m sorry it bothers people, and I do try not to do it, but I do hope people will give me some leeway about it.

        1. Butterfly Counter*

          Exactly this. I find that I sigh a lot when I am working through something and am stressed about it. It’s a way of stopping me from getting bogged down from another doom spiral and try to think about the issue another way.

          I don’t do it much. And honestly, when I catch myself doing it, I kind of annoy myself. But it’s definitely not a conscious thing and a lot less distracting than some of the other things I do to manage similar issues.

      3. Jeanine*

        I do it too and I would really hate it if someone pointed it out to me, and I would be anxious about it forever after that. Just don’t mention it. Leave it be.

        1. Apex Mountain*

          I agree. It sucks that the boss is triggered from her childhood, but I don’t think that should be dumped on the employee

    3. Strive to Excel*

      Fellow sigher here! I used to do this much more as a child (as far as I know) and it was a concentration thing. I would get so invested in whatever I was working on that I’d apparently stop breathing? Or breath less. And I would not realise that was something I was doing until my mom asked me if everything was OK. It’s a deep focus thing, and while I haven’t ever taken steps to investigate, I would not be surprised to find that it was ADHD/neurospicy related.

      I wouldn’t be bothered by a coworker checking in! Can’t hurt to ask as long as you approach from “you know you are doing this?”

      1. Racingboo*

        I scrolled down to comment for the first time in years of reading AAM daily to say that I sigh constantly, and was told years ago that it’s anxiety. Only to find this whole thread with loads of people mentioning ADHD and ASD. I was diagnosed with ASD just over a year ago and am not diagnosed but reasonably certain I also have ADHD. This is really interesting, I’d never have made that connection myself.

        1. Momma Bear*

          For some people it can also be a sign of hyperfocus – you’re deep into whatever you’re doing and forget to breathe normally. My child does this.

          1. JustaTech*

            The web comic artist Howard Taylor (of Schlock Mercenary) discovered that he held his breath when drawing long straight lines only after he developed Long COVID and it suddenly went from “little quirk” to “very dangerous” because he was already having trouble getting enough oxygen.

            I think he used one of those body-monitoring rings to figure it out.

            1. Orv*

              That makes sense, since holding your breath steadies your body. Competitive target shooters are taught to take a deep breath, exhale halfway, and hold it, just before taking a shot.

          2. Also-ADHD*

            I make breathing and even actual sounds to refocus and it’s one reason why WFH is so much better for my autism and ADHD. But I’ve also always hated any attempt to police my breathing, face, the way I sit, etc.

          3. polarbear*

            I have ADHD and I hold my breath without realizing it. I’m not always hyperfocusing either, unfortunately.

      2. AuDHDer*

        AuDHD here – sighing can be a stim and the person may not realize they are doing it.

        Sighing releases tension. For me, it happens in situations that make me uncomfortable or frustrated (e.g. loud staff meetings, being forced to participate in a prof dev “game”). I think my breathing deepens to mitigate my discomfort?

        In one such instance, I sighed at what others must have felt was the wrong time — and I was publicly called out right there in the meeting. I wanted the floor to open and swallow me up. I didn’t even know I had done it.

    4. Double A*

      My husband does this, and it bothers me not really because of the sighing but because I get focused on how infrequently he is breathing!! He takes a breath, holds it for 30 seconds, then releases it with a quiet sigh. I’ve spent some time googling if this is potentially indicative of a problem. I’ve mentioned it to him, but I feel one wants to tread carefully around “your breathing is annoying me” with one’s spouse.

      He’s doing it when he’s just like reading on his phone so I’m not sure it’s a deep focus thing? I dunno, I think maybe it has something to do with his ADHD because in general his relationship with his bodily functions is a little wonky due to that.

    5. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

      I also breathe less deeply than I need to when I’m doing deeper thinking (and at other times as well), and then I have to sigh to bring things back into balance. Some people take this very personally, like I’m sighing *at* them. Others get very concerned about my mental well-being. No, I’m just breathing how my body tells me to breathe.

      1. Allonge*

        The thing is, a lot of people have been raised or socialised in an enviroment where a sigh is expected to be treated as communication of being sad or upset (usually from someone passive-agressive).

        Just as you cannot control what your body tells you, they cannot control that instinct of ‘oh frak, a SIGH, now I need to ask what the matter is without asking what the matter is otherwise I will be accused of not paying attention’.

        I like the idea of proactively communicating about this.

        1. polarbear*

          > they cannot control that instinct of ‘oh frak, a SIGH

          Thankfully I’ve been able to teach myself that certain sighs and yells are actually neutral. It took a lot of actively telling myself “no, this person is doing XYZ” before I started quickly recognizing those sounds as not-a-threat.

          This comes after ten full years of trauma-informed therapy though, and it’s just for the noises my partner makes. I’m not expecting OP to make that transition so quickly when it’s just a coworker. But OP recognizes the role the trauma plays in their reaction, and that’s a fabulous start.

    6. AK.A*

      I am also a sigher. I think it’s for the same reason. The only way I can reliably stop it is to not focus hard on any sort of task that doesn’t involve talkng or movement. Which is not ideal at work.

      An internship supervisor advised me to be proactive and tell people so they don’t think I’m bored or frustrated and I try to remember to do that.

      1. skadhu*

        Yeah, I got called out by an ex for sighing when I wash the dishes—they thought it was a passive-aggressive complaint, but I had no idea I was doing it. So I tried to “watch” myself when doing the task and realized that yes, I did sigh, and that it was something to do with the breathing patterns I went into when I was standing at the sink: shallow, shallow, shallow, BIG BREATH. Since then I have very occasionally noticed myself doing it in many other contexts. I’m not sure if it’s just the way I breathe, and more noticeable in some contexts, or if it relates to physical positions and/or concentration. The thing is, even noticing it is challenging for me, and trying to change my breathing pattern would require a LOT of focus, to the point that whatever I was doing otherwise would suffer (and if it was a task that required thinking, it would likely be impossible).

        My partner got upset because they thought I was sighing *at* them, as a commentary on what I was doing, but I wasn’t. That’s just the way I breathe. Maybe you can reframe your co-worker’s sighing as a breathing pattern, not commentary?

    7. roseyposey*

      I am exactly the same and am delighted to find there are so many of us!

      For me it’s 100% related to concentration. I don’t know I’m doing it and don’t think I could really moderate it unless I focused on it constantly, which would distract me from the work I’m doing that required my focus in the first place…so overall counterproductive. I also have ADHD so need to protect my rare moments of focus when they come! Perhaps it is neurospicy related?

      If someone asked me to rein it in I’d probably respond with a cheery “oh dear, I’m afraid that’s just how I’m built!”, but I would henceforth feel pretty self conscious and uncomfortable around that person. If there’s a practical solution like closing an office door or rearranging the desk so that the sigher faces away from the annoyed coworker that would work, but otherwise
      headphones might be the only real solution.

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        I’m intrigued by the number of people mentioning ADHD! I don’t have ADHD, but I do have some ASD traits. Maybe this is one of them?

      2. lurkyloo*

        Ditto! The whole time I was reading this, I was ‘sighing’….lol I had no idea that so many of us do it. Cheers to having a sigh-mmunity!

    8. Orv*

      I do that too, and every so often I become aware of it and get self-conscious about my coworkers maybe noticing. No one’s said anything yet, though.

    9. Michigander*

      Yes, I was coming here to say: That might just be how she breathes. I don’t have any diagnosed conditions, but I’m pretty sure I don’t breathe in an optimal fashion, and it results in me sighing and yawning more than most people. I wouldn’t mind if someone asked about it once, but if my boss asked me to knock it off I’d be pretty embarrassed (and also wouldn’t be able to).

    10. A nonny mouse*

      Yup, I’m also a sigher. I just do not notice it. It doesn’t help that I didn’t the first 7 years post college working in a lab, so the white noise of the machines drowned it out, and it’s just a habit I do not notice at all.

    11. londonedit*

      When I’m in the office, I sit near a woman who frequently yawns, and it’s a sort of sigh-yawn where the yawn isn’t massively loud but then it ends with a sort of sighing sound. To start with I thought she was doing it on purpose, like she was always really bored or fed up, but as time went on I realised that’s just the way she yawns, and she’s the sort of person who yawns a lot, and that’s it. I think we can have knee-jerk reactions to certain sounds – like yawning or sighing – that make us think ‘Whoa, sounds like they’re constantly pissed off’ or whatever, but in fact a lot of the time it’s just a noise people make.

      1. Edwina*

        I’ve realized that sometimes when I’m thinking about how to solve a problem, I sigh in a way that sounds like I’m annoyed or bored. I first noticed it when I was doing a lot of zoom meetings. I think that’s because we weren’t usually on camera, and I worried that, without being able to also see my facial expression, people would think I was constantly annoyed. Now I try to not do it, or if I do, I might say, “hmm” or something after I sigh so people will understand that I’m just thinking hard, not being annoyed with their problem.

        I’m in the process of getting screened/diagnosed for ADHD, so it’s interesting to see all of the mentions of that in people’s comments.

    12. 1-800-BrownCow*

      I can also sigh a lot. Deep breaths help me feel calmer when I’m stressed. So I take a deep breath, hold it and then let the air out which comes out as a sigh. Honestly, I would be pretty upset if someone asked me to stop, as I’ve found it to be a very helpful tool.

    13. allathian*

      Sometimes I focus so hard that I “forget” to breathe, sometimes until I start to feel dizzy. The result is a yawn followed by a sigh. I’m NT and don’t recognize myself in typical ADHD or ASD traits.

    14. Huh*

      Another sigher here! I notice that I do it, but I hadn’t considered it could be annoying until now (I work mostly alone). I always assumed it was because I am overweight and out of shape, but I’m curious whether it’s anxiety, adhd, deep focus, or other ideas mentioned here…

    15. Kate*

      This is me! My high school friends dubbed it the “Kate Lastname Sigh” after finally asking me if I was annoyed with them. I think I hold my breath when concentrating and let it out as a sigh. Sighing to make a point does not happen to be something I do. I’d be grateful if a coworker bothered by it brought it up to give me a chance to clear the air!

      1. BigBaDaBoom*

        I am a sigher but I also have a gasp that I do every once in a while where I guess I’ve been breathing too shallowly and then have to have a “catch-up” breath. It’s just a well known thing among my friends that I gasp and it stops fazing people but it’s funny when I meet a new person and they’re like “what’s wrong?!” And sometimes when I do it my friends are all “aww I missed you and your gasps.” Hahaha

    16. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

      I think I do the same thing. I hope my coworkers aren’t bothered by it, it’s not on purpose. Or I’ll take a deep breath to sort of center myself and focus, which results in an audible exhale. I just don’t think anybody has the standing to tell me how to BREATHE for heavens sakes.

    17. Trout 'Waver*

      Yeah, add me to the pile of sighers. Everyone on both sides of my family did it, so maybe it’s a learned behavior. Maybe it’s genetic. I don’t know. Policing how I breathe is tedious af.

    18. KayDeeAye*

      I am also a frequent sigher. I do it because it just feels *good*, you know? Kind of like a stretch for my lungs. I bet I do annoy people from time to time, but what I figure is, they do harmless things that annoy me, and if I can overlook those things – jiggling their leg, being addicted to one particular word and using it over and over again, really *pounding* on their keyboard, etc. – they should be able to overlook this.

      Humans. Whatcha gonna do? Be gentle with each other.

    19. KC*

      I, too, am a big sigher!! It’s not necessarily an indicator that I’m unhappy overall, but sometimes it’s my way of releasing a little stress when I’m feeling overwhelmed. Honestly, it’s a coping mechanism and I’m barely aware of it. If someone called me out on it I’d probably sigh about it in an unhappy way :P

    20. kiki*

      I’ve realized I sigh a lot without thinking about since working from home during the pandemic. It would be really hard for me to go back to the office! I don’t even realize I’m doing it and I was only made aware since my partner and I moved in together.

      1. Charley*

        I’m not a sigher, but am a yawner. It doesn’t mean I’m bored or falling asleep – it’s just the way my body works, and I often worry people will take it the wrong way.

        1. Orv*

          I don’t normally yawn much, but for some reason if I’ve been sedentary and then I do something physical, like going for a walk, I yawn a LOT.

    21. Snudence Prooter*

      I do the same thing! And I have some permanent lung damage from whooping cough as a teenager. It’s really the sound of me running out of air and taking a deep breath to make up for it, but it skids and looks like a deep, heartfelt sigh.

    22. aceowl*

      I’m a frequent sigher. I worry about annoying my coworkers, but no one has ever said anything. For me, it’s an anxiety thing. My chest often aches from my heart racing and sighing is a way to regulate my heart rate for a few moments.

      1. strawberry milk charlotte*

        I personally would err on the side of not saying anything, and not reading too much into it, at least if there’s no other signs of discontent/negativity otherwise from this person. And if you can find other, more substantial signs, maybe point to those instead? I got in trouble for sighing a lot as a tween/teenager, at school mostly. People sometimes ask me if I’m okay now as an adult. (I don’t like being asked if I’m okay; pet peeve built after years and years.)

        It was never me communicating anything, though! I get absorbed in things and forget to take deep breaths, like when I’m focused on drawing/painting, reading, working, and I’ll end up sighing when I finally breathe enough. Sometimes I’ll be stressed or tense without realizing (I need to do some mindfulness or something, according to my mother lol) and a big sigh will release it.

        I also have ADHD (might be autistic as well) and it’s definitely a regulating behaviour, though not one I do on purpose. When I realized I did it a lot, and why, though, I started thinking of it as a kind of reset.

    23. It’s just how I breathe*

      Yup, heavy signer here too. I’ve had bosses ask about it but most have been fine when I’ve explained that it’s just the way I breathe and not related to boredom or unhappiness. Except one boss who constantly “joked” about my “extremely large sighs”. I highly recommend not going that route.

    24. ee*

      I’m autistic and sighing is a habit when I have to change tasks, sort of like a stretch that helps me get in gear to think about something new. It would be very difficult to stop doing this. I really can’t imagine starting something new without taking my big breath, especially if I have to physically move. Surely I must be able to if I really try, but it’s so ingrained that I honestly don’t think I ever get up from sitting or lying down without sighing as the first step.

      I’m actually kind of upset to hear that there’s apparently a lot of people who interpret sighing as frustration ir passive aggression. People who are bothered by this, could you explain why? How much does it bother you? Does sighing really seem passive aggressive to you even when the person is doing their own thing and not paying attention to other people at all? Is is something you could learn to get used to?

      I don’t want to annoy everyone around me (any more than I already do), or have them misinterpret me (any more than they already do), but I already spend all day monitoring and suppressing my natural body language and facial expressions and making myself uncomfortable for others’ sake in thousands of little ways, and I really don’t want to have to add my breathing to the list. Is this an eye contact level big deal for non-autistic people, where I’ve really got to conform to survive, or us this one where maybe other people could explore the idea that sometimes their interpretation of other people’s body language is inaccurate?

      1. Been There*

        I can’t actually answer your questions, because I think anyone who tells you to change how you breathe is in bananapants territory. Or maybe it’s because I do the exact same thing you describe :-). Anyway, here’s a way to reframe it. When I lift weights, I inhale in preparation, then give a strong exhale on the lift, using that air as a piston to propel my body. I use the exact same approach when I think – especially like you, when I’m re-orienting to something new. It’s like “deep inhale to let old thoughts go…. sigh/exhale to ground and refocus on the new.” I was once called out by a boss who thought my big sigh was a passive aggressive response – but then I said “no, I’m powering up my brain so I can focus and nail this,” he really couldn’t complain about that.

      2. Hroethvitnir*

        The number of people here saying they sigh like this makes me suspect most are not sighing in the way most people interpret as a comment – letting out a deep breath can make noise, but an “interpreted as communication” sigh is when the air is pushed out quite forcefully.

        I don’t even see it as passive-aggression necessarily! But a *loud* sigh (vs just any bigger than average exhalation) is a sound I associate with working hard – so you’re working on something tricky or you’re tired so finding it hard. Which tends to trigger an automatic “you OK?” from me and many others.

        Basically, I wouldn’t worry. I can’t hear everyone here but I strongly doubt a majority are actually sighing in a way that’s hard to ignore.

    25. NotARealManager*

      I sigh a lot right now, because I’m eight months pregnant. There isn’t much space in my lungs. But I did warn my co-workers: I’m not frustrated, bored, or angry. I’m just trying to breathe.

      1. PlantProf*

        I only realized that I apparently was sighing more even just a few months into pregnancy when my spouse kept asking me if I was ok. Yep! Just a little short of breath! And tired, and somehow the sigh as I sit down from doing whatever helps get air and give me a moment.

    26. PizzaDog*

      That’s exactly what I was going to comment. I do it all the time. Sometimes I pepper in a fake cough or something like that so that it seems like I was catching my breath.

    27. Kate*

      Also a sigher – I didn’t expect so much company! A coworker years ago told me she knew it was me coming down the hallway by my sighs. That comment had stuck with me, but only in a funny way, fortunately.

      I have also had a partner whose breathing sounds I have interpreted as passive-aggressive (sometimes just aggressive) so I sort of understand both sides, but honestly? People breathe how they breathe.

    28. Banana Pyjamas*

      I also hold my breath (and clench my jaw) when concentrating then sigh as a result. My first thought was the person is probably just concentrating

    29. LL*

      Yeah, I do something like this sometimes too. I sometimes hold my breath subconsciously for some reason and then I need air, so I sigh. Idk.

    30. Silence is Golden*

      I think in any shared space with an assortment of humans there will be some people that do things, intentionally or otherwise, that annoy other people.

      We have some loud sighers in my office. I assume they can’t help it, but they should at least learn to find their Teams mute buttons – it’s super awkward listening to people sigh and moan during a meeting.

      We also have someone who breathes like he’s snoring. I’ve actually done a lap on occasion to make sure no one fell asleep at their desk. I assume he can’t help it just as much as I can’t help how my misophonia reacts to it.

  4. Lorikeet*

    Ah, yes, the “you could TOTALLY make a living out of your hobby!” brigade.

    Happily I now work with a group of people who tell me I’m so clever for knitting/sewing whichever handmade garment I’m wearing on any given day, and leave it at that, but I have in the past exclaimed with horror that if I turned my hobby into a job, I’d be poorer, more stressed and I’d no longer have a hobby for relaxation.

    1. Juicebox Hero*

      Yep, I have a sister who’s currently pouting because I wouldn’t make her a sweater she found on Temu. “But you could knock this out in a weekend and just use up the yarn you have!!!!!” No, I couldn’t, even if I spent the whole 48 hours on it, and it has to be the right kind of yarn if it’s going to wear at all well without pilling, falling apart, or stretching out of shape. And the one on Temu was $15, which is less than the cost of a skein of a lot of yarns.

      Another thing a lot of people don’t realize is that on some patterns it’s verboten to sell items made using that pattern, the very popular Emotional Support Chicken for instance.

      1. Lab Boss*

        I don’t know anything about knitting, and don’t really wear sweaters, but I’m now deeply curious. Google shows me pictures of knitted chickens, but what makes it unsellable? Is it a legal/rights issue, or just one of those things where “everyone knows you just DON’T profit off this one?”

        1. Rocket Raccoon*

          It’s not unusual for pattern designers to claim that the patterns they sell are “for personal use only”. Many people who make crafts to sell will seek the permission of the designer first, as a matter of etiquette. It’s not legally enforceable AT ALL but it’s a common misconception that the copyright is not just on the pattern but on things made from it.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Yeah my hobby is how I destress. If it becomes a job its not a destresser, its just a job.

  5. NurseThis*

    Re #3….a lot of people have asked me over the years why I don’t turn my “hobby” into a business. It shows me people have no idea how time consuming hand work (in my case knitting) is. I have several friends who tried to go that route; not only did the businesses flounder but it also ruined their love of the hobby.

    I think it goes back to the unhelpful platitude of “make your passion your business!”. Knitting is my recreation, I never wanted to make it a business.

    1. Goody*

      We actually had a conversation very much in this line of thought at work today (Weds). Would we ever consider trying to make a living at one of our hobbies? I used my current crochet project as an example – a very simple lap throw made of acrylic yarn and double-crochet stitch. I’ve got about 16 hours into it and estimate another 10-12 before it’s complete. At minimum wage in my state, that’s nearly $400 just in labor. There is no way that ANYONE is going to pay that much for a mini blanket.

      I did accept a commission one time. And found myself procrastinating the project until the weekend before and then getting nearly zero sleep all week because I was frantically working on it when ever I wasn’t at my day job. For a measly fifty bucks. I swore right then, never ever again. I don’t even plan a recipient other than myself for any of my projects, just in case.

      1. RandomNameAllocated*

        Yes, I give my creations as presents, I don’t think the recipients have any idea how much eg fabric costs, or good yarn, let alone how much time the items take! Although I can whip up a lined tote bag in probably 30 mins

      2. UKDancer*

        Same. I embroider. I took a commission once and it was really stressful because it wasn’t something I wanted to do and I didn’t enjoy it and had to force myself to do it by the deadline and it gave me no pleasure. I embroider for my pleasure, doing the things that I feel motivated to do. I’d never take another commission because it sucks all the fun out of it.

    2. Aphrodite*

      Writing for me went that route and had the unfortunate effect of permanently killing off any interest in it. I refuse to write anything for anyone. I am mostly satisfied with with admin assistant position in higher ed that pays rather well (after a lot of years) and offers a steady paycheck and outstanding benefits. If I ever find another hobby I’ll never make the mistake of looking to make money off it.

      Hunter S. Thompson, the gonzo journalist, once said. “I’ve always considered writing the most hateful kind of work. I suspect it’s a bit like f***ing, which is only fun for amateurs. Old wh**** don’t do much giggling.”

      Crude, but boy, do I get that.

      1. Catagorical*

        I’m one of the few crazy artists that made a life out of it. It was always my deepest dream. (Lasted until the pandemic hit) I spent decades pinching every penny thrice, without medical insurance, all second hand clothes. It was an all-consuming passion. And I was lucky too, to be able to scratch out a living in the arts in an expensive area, and some day jobs at times.

        It’s even more extreme from the other side! I am so glad I pursued what I thought my life was for, but I sacrificed EVERYTHING for it. I do still love my art but the business is ghastly. Never regret being able to pay the bills.

      2. Red_Coat*

        Are you me from the future? LOL! I’m an admin assistant at a college and a writer. My coworkers are convinced that I’m gonna ‘make it big’ and leave, but it’d take a crowbar to pry my pension, health insurance, and amazing work/life balance out of my hands.

        I just write people kissing books for fun and maybe someday enough money to retile my bathroom.

        1. I Have RBF*

          One gal I used to work with at a university job is a published author. She had the job to pay the bills and get insurance. She was “retired” when Covid hit – i.e. take retirement or get laid off.

          Most authors I know either a) have a day job, b) have a pension or disability income, c) have a high earning spouse, d) are independently wealthy, or e) are prolific enough that they can eek out a living in a cheap area. The last one is the rarest.

    3. I don't know either.*

      I had great success shutting this down by using an example I had actually made (polar bear plush for a colleague’s son).

      Material cost, roughly €20-30. Labour cost giving myself my country’s minimum wage? Roughly around €200.

      Even I, the person who made the plush and knows how long it took, would not pay over €200 for that plush.

      I’ve found with crafting specifically people are always like “oh don’t worry I’ll reimburse the cost :))” when they ask for things and just…Honey, the materials is really not where the cost of these things is.

      (By the way colleague didn’t ask for the plush, I inherited a bunch of white yarn and happened to have a polar bear pattern and no one else to make it for so I asked if their son would be interested)

      1. coffee*

        There’s always quilting, where the materials and the time are both prohibitively expensive from a commercial perspective!

        1. Emmy Noether*

          This has always struck me as sort of ironic. Quilting (patchworking) started as a way to use scraps and save money! Why is everything patchwork related so dang expensive?!

          (There’s still the possibility of using scraps, obviously. It’s just a different way of approaching the hobby, requiring more patience and compromise. Plus today’s clothes are less suited to be used in quilts when worn through – less stable woven cottons/linens and smaller pieces. You can get a lot of yardage out of a floor length full skirt. You get nothing from leggins.).

          1. Dust Bunny*

            Because if you use real scraps the materials are cheap but you still have the labor. The labor is actually the biggest part of the cost. If you’re doing it for yourself it’s “free” but if you’re paying for someone else’s time it very definitely is not.

            Also, it’s a “women’s craft”, and those have always been undervalued. I guarantee you that women who sold quilts 35, 50, 100 years ago weren’t getting paid fairly, either.

            1. Emmy Noether*

              I did mean the material cost – I agree with your point though, and I guess if you do tally the labor cost, the materials cost no longer seems that high! It’s what I tell myself for knitting – if one reverses it and calculates the material cost per hour of doing a hobby, it’s not that much. That doesn’t work if it’s a job not a hobby.

              Both quilting and knitting are also among those crafts that women used to (and some people still do) do sort of in between and on the side – in the evenings, while chatting with friends, while watching kids, while waiting, while traveling,… so the labor never got tallied, but if you add up the time, it’s truly staggering.

              1. Angstrom*

                Or spinning yarn with a drop spindle….
                You’re absolutely right — the amount of labor required to produce clothing by hand, start to finish, is staggering. There was always fiber handwork when there wasn’t other household or farm work.

                1. allathian*

                  When the old Vikings commissioned a ship, it took a team of weavers, mostly women, 2 YEARS to make the sail out of tightly-woven wool. When you start by shearing the sheep, it’s a very labor-intense process. By contrast, the hull could be made in a few weeks or months as long as they had the right sort of wood.

            2. Quill*

              Yeah, quilting was very much an “I already spend all my time sewing the family clothes, and my kid needs a blanket and we don’t HAVE stores, so…”

        2. I don't know either.*

          Oof, yeah, YouTube sometimes tosses me videos of people making some absolutely gorgeous quilts and I don’t think I want to know how expensive they would be to buy – or even make yourself.

    4. Six Feldspar*

      Absolutely right, and even if I *wanted* to make cooking or fibrecrafts my career, I don’t see any big companies offering positions for that with someone else looking after the accounting and HR! Passion careers are hard enough without throwing in small business work too…

      1. I don't know either.*

        This this this! So many small businesses go under because turns out being a good baker/knitter/sewist doesn’t mean you’re good at running a business! Vastly different skill set.

        Of course the ones who do go under and fail to do so gracefully are also often the source of the kind of drama that ends up on a podcast you listen to while crafting ^^’

      2. Usually lurking*

        I’ve had luck explaining that it wouldn’t be fun anymore if it became a job! For me it’s usually baking – I’ve made a few wedding cakes as well as cakes/cupcakes/cookies for other events. I make them for friends and family but the people at the event that don’t know me always ask why I don’t do it professionally. I tell them it wouldn’t be fun for me if it became my job. They usually accept that. I’m also well aware that it costs a LOT more to do these things than people think and I would never have any free time if I did a high enough volume to survive, but people don’t understand that even when it’s explained.

    5. Ellis Bell*

      It definitely goes back to all that classist guff about “follow your passion” and “if you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life!” They think they’re in a movie and telling you to get off the Coyote Ugly bar and go write a song for LeAnn Rimes. I always wonder if it’s just for the sake of making conversation or if they really believe it. We have a lot of part time musicians at my job and whenever I’ve heard this, the musician colleague almost never interprets it as a serious suggestion. It’s either: “Would be nice wouldn’t it! You let me know when you see a music job advertised for X grand is posted!” or “Oh god know, I can’t think of anything worse; it’s my escape from work”. I don’t know if these replies ever stop the comments though.

    6. Angstrom*

      If you become a retail business, you’ll spend a lot of time dealing with customers instead of doing your hobby. Is that really something you’ll enjoy?
      “You’re a great dancer! You should teach!” Oh hell no. I enjoy helping folks who want to learn, but have zero interest in doing the ego and expectation management that would be required for paying customers.

      1. UKDancer*

        Oh yes. I am an amateur dancer in various dance types had a colleague ask me to do a dance class for her hen do. I told her how much it would cost (giving the proper rate for the hour having checked with some of my colleagues for the going rate and factoring in the cost of my obtaining professional indemnity insurance). I also warned her I was not a trained teacher and couldn’t vouch for my ability to teach a class effectively so she might do better with either of the 2 dancers I would recommend who do this sort of thing professionally.

        She said she hadn’t expected me to charge for it, given I wasn’t a teacher. Suddenly she wasn’t interested.

        So ended my short teaching career. I mean I have no interest in teaching and am pretty bad at it and prefer leaving that sort of thing to the people who enjoy it.

        1. Angstrom*

          I do enjoy explaining/demonstrating hobby stuff to folks who are interested, but that’s a world of difference from curriculum planning, classroom management, and everything else that goes into teaching as a job. There’s a lot of background work required to make it look easy.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’m a quilter and never met a problem that can’t be solved with a bit of fabric. But it’s a Thing I Do, and I get so frustrated when people want to encourage me by saying that it’s Art and all that. I am working toward some sort of abstract idea as well as the practical object, so in some ways, that’s art, but also the thing I care about is process and function. Which doesn’t add up to selling and commissions and all that. Like someone in a weekend band — the point is the playing and the occasional show.
      So yeah, leave me alone with all that “get an Etsy shop” nonsense.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, even though I make multiple units of a thing, I don’t want to do eBay or Etsy. The shipping and customer service parts just suck.

    8. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      Absolutely this and what Alison said (“There’s no faster way to kill the joy of a hobby than by trying to make money from it.”) is my mantra. I have had several hobbies I tried to turn into a business. The last was using my wood lathe to make peppermills, bowls, etc. At that time Etsy started getting flooded with resellers and factory-made goods and what few sales I had dropped off because I couldn’t compete price-wise. It was a huge relief when I quit. I used to love turning wood but I haven’t touched a lathe in ten years. I’m not sure if I’ll ever start up again.

      So when my family keeps insisting I do as a business, I silently scream inside. They insist I can make a living at it but they ALL have only ever had day jobs and have never tried to monetize a hobby.

      1. JustaTech*

        This is why I think my mom and my uncle have the right idea with their crafting hobbies: a person only needs so many sweaters, peppermills or wooden bowls.
        So they make stuff for charity, and not just “stuff in general” but the specific items that the charity asks them to make (that they know that they can use or sell).
        They get the joy of making, and know that whatever it is will get used and not just stuck on a shelf or in the back of a closet (even if that use is “the child loves the toy to death”).

    9. SummitSkein*

      Exactly this. For every comment about my knitting being turned into a job that I get (*waves at fellow fiber artists, there are apparently a LOT of us on here*), I just cheerfully but firmly reply, “NOPE. Knitting is how I relax, and using my knitting for profit is not at all relaxing. I would never.”

  6. Daria grace*

    #3 My sympathies. I get this kind of thing quite a bit as a photographer. I find pointing out that the odds are stacked against success due to the amount of competition I’d have sometimes helps. My normal response is something like “I don’t think pursuing photography professionally really makes sense for me. It’s a very very crowded market with lots lots of aspiring photographers and not that many well paid opportunities. Unless you’re one of the best in the country there’s mostly only decent money in a few narrow niches I’m not interested in and don’t have the expensive high end cameras for like real estate or bridal”

    Curiously the people who most insist my work is amazing and I could make money from it are almost never the ones buying stuff I sell with my photos on….

    1. Lady Blerd*

      I have a colleague who has turned his photography hobby into a successful wedding photography business. In fact, he could quit his day job but is working until reaching the minimum pensionable time before quitting. But then again he’s one of those “multiple streams of revenue” type of entrepreneurs.

      1. Loredena*

        So much this. Years ago my father saw a small couch I’d made and thought I should sell it. I had to point out that I’d spun the three ply yarn and crocheted the bag over many many hours. I couldn’t even sell it for the equivalent of minimum wage!

          2. Emmy Noether*

            I for one completely believed in your ability to make crochet upholstery as a hobby (why not!) before reading the rest of the comment, lol!

  7. Goody*

    I grew up in a family where the SIGH was definitely a passive-aggressive move, used mostly to draw focus (a la “nobody is paying attention to meeeeeeee”) and occasionally to indicate negative feedback. And I’m married to a sigher who is absolutely and completely unaware of doing so. I’ve called out the behavior several times to completely blank clueless stares and no change in the frequency, so I’ve had to learn to block out the sound and realize that there is no subtext involved, at least from that person.

    1. Rebecca*

      This is my husband and me.

      His family is guess culture – they are constantly scanning faces and noises to make sure they don’t miss something that another person is communicating.

      My family is NOT, so I’ve learned that apparently my face is an open book and I sigh audibly without noticing (my mother noticed the sighing too but she thought I had a breathing problem, and then got over it when it turned out I don’t). I was the one giving him the clueless looks when he asked me what was wrong. Now I have to police my face when my mother in law is around because she finds it very stressful to wonder if someone is annoyed and if she has to do something about it.

      1. Hobbit*

        My partner’s ex would sigh and it was a sign of a problem. So the first time he heard me sigh he was immediately on edge and wanting to know what was wrong. It was literally a sigh of contentment.

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        My spouse and me, too. I can’t tell you how many arguments we’ve had that started with me just trying to get a healthy gulp of oxygen into my system.

        I’d call the split Intuit v. Explicit, though. Ask is decent, but my spouse and family would absolutely take Guess Culture as a Declaration of War.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I had to rewire my brain about this too. When our son was a newborn and I needed help in the middle of the night, my husband would give a big sigh as he got out of bed. To me that read as “ugggh I don’t want to do this but I guess I’ll do it anyway” because I had been raised with a family that used sighing to send passive aggressive messages of annoyance, and it made me feel awful and also furious – it’s our child, you’ve been encouraging me to ask for help more often, you don’t get to guilt me about this when I’ve been up with a screaming baby!

      When I finally brought it up he was shocked and confused – he was literally just taking a deep breath as a way to wake himself up, zero subtext. I didn’t want to begrudge his oxygen intake so I had to really make myself believe that it was ok and he wasn’t making any sort of statement – and all of his actions outside of the sigh matched with this. And he made an effort on his end to be a little extra cheerful after sighing so I really knew that he wasn’t secretly annoyed.

      This bit of acknowledgement and communication made things a lot easier for both of us. I stopped avoiding asking for help and he didn’t have to witness me driving myself into the ground all because sighing meant different things to us.

    3. Not The Earliest Bird*

      I’m a sigher. It’s just an involuntary reflex for me. Almost like I’ve forgotten to breathe and need to catch up. It’s also feels good to sigh, it’s a nice lung stretch.

      1. KayDeeAye*

        That’s exactly how it feels to me – like a nice stretch for my lungs. I love that feeling.

    4. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I did too, and I am a sigher – I recognize myself in the above conversations about holding one’s breath involuntarily. There’s only one member of the passive-aggressive family left, and ironically I’m a lot more likely to hold my breath (and thus need to sigh) when I’m around her because I’m focusing on keeping my body language absolutely free of behaviors that can be misinterpreted!
      My husband pretty quickly figured out that if I’m actually aggravated, the sigh will be followed by a “grrrr.” For his part, if he’s expressing exasperation, he’ll literally say “Sigh!” which makes me laugh.

  8. Heather*

    #1 how old is your coworker? I have found younger Gen Z and Gen Alpha are not using their words when expressing displeasure and instead SIGHING at everyone expecting them to understand their ire. Happened to me and a friend at Target the other day. Scared the poor girls half to death when i turned around and asked if they’d like to pass us and to please use their words next time.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        And it can be a teenage thing, because teenagers often don’t actually have the authority to say, “can you please stop x?” so they often only have the option of passive-aggression, so if Heather is seeing a lot of it in younger Gen Z and Gen Alpha, it’s probably not so much a generational thing, as a children who haven’t the authority or social skills to express disapproval as adults would thing.

        1. Texas Teacher*

          Exactly. My older teens are gen Z and would not feel like requesting an adult stranger to move out of their way. And the oldest gen Alphas are what, 12 years old? They’re kids.

        3. Quill*

          Also teenagers are unfairly policed on what their body is doing because all bodily functions / facets of existence are taken to be signs of “attitude.”

          So I wouldn’t be surprised if sighing was used among some groups of teens to convey irritation / disapproval, and I wouldn’t be surprised if people are more likely to see any sighing by teens / early twenties as hostile, and therefore notice it more often with them.

      3. MsM*

        Yep. I have the same trigger issues as the LW thanks to boomer relatives. (And I’m pretty sure they picked it up from their parents.)

      4. Esmae*

        My 101-year-old grandmother only expresses her displeasure by sighing loudly and waiting for someone to figure out what’s wrong and fix it. It’s definitely not generational.

      5. ferrina*

        In my life, I’ve seen it happen more with older adults who are concerned with appearing polite but still want you to proactively ask them what’s wrong. The second highest frequency group is teenagers.

        So….yeah. Teenagers and 50+ers trying to get attention is the main culprits of the passive-aggressive sigh that I’ve seen.

        1. Orv*

          A lot of people come from cultural backgrounds where it’s not appropriate to ask for what you want from other people; the only polite thing is to wait for them to offer.

    2. londonedit*

      I think sighing and eye-rolling have been classic teenage modes of expression for as long as teenagers have existed!

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        When my kid was eleven or so, my response to eye-rolling was “You have a couple of years to work on that. It’s not up to teenage standards yet.” I just ignored the sighs.

      2. SpaceySteph*

        Fun fact, while of course people have been teen aged for time immemorial, “teenage” is something of a modern invention, cropping up in the 1940s and gaining steam from there. The concept starts popping up around the same time as the FLSA, which restricts working hours for minors and thus creates an age between when you are a child and when you are a full blown employee.

        1. londonedit*

          Yep, I knew that. When I was writing my comment above I even thought to myself ‘I bet someone will come along and tell me teenagers in the modern sense have only existed since the 1950s’ (I think most people in the UK would say it was the 50s here, because half the 40s was taken up with the war and young people didn’t really get as many freedoms until the 50s/60s). I’m not sure whether the teenagers of the 12th or 17th centuries used to sigh and roll their eyes and answer back to adults, but I’m sure they did!

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            The difference in medieval times was that they were already working and could just slouch off and build a hut of their own if they didn’t want to stay with their annoying parents!

    4. Jennifer Strange*

      Maybe they were scared half to death because a stranger turned around and scolded them for something that may not have even been a passive aggressive act.

      1. Lola*

        My thoughts exactly. Nothing wrong with a friendly (not passive aggressive), “I’m sorry, am I in your way?” but the rest is just kind of mean.

    5. Nonsense*

      My god, teenagers acted like teenagers. What is this world coming to? Back in your day, teenagers never rebelled and respected their elders unflinching, amirite?

    6. Insert Clever Name Here*

      A non-exhaustive list of the reasons I’ve sighed this morning (because I read this comment while getting ready for work and have been thinking about it since):

      – my husband didn’t put the dishes in the dishwasher last night (while tidying before heading to the bus stop)
      – I forgot to add toothpaste to my Target pickup order even though we’re out (while walking down the hallway at work)
      – thinking through the excel formula I need to figure out for a complicated purpose (while washing my hands)
      – realizing that the exhibit we were going to go to this weekend actually closed August 4th, not September 4th so now I need to manage the disappointment of my 9 year old (while standing outside the conference room waiting for the previous meeting to end)

      If the woman standing next to me at the sink in the restroom snapped at me to use my words, that would be pretty strange and she probably wouldn’t care about my excel formula woes.

    7. I'm 41*

      When she brought up “being rude to elders” I would have been sooooo tempted to ask “How do you know you’re older than me?”

      1. Rex Libris*

        The phrase “being rude to elders” generates an automatic eye roll from me, and I’m in my 50’s.

        1. Lola*

          Right? People in their 50s are largely Gen X. That phrase is distinctly from generations prior to that.

    8. I'm 41*

      LW’s coworker is telling on herself right in this conversation that the REASON she’s fishing for demographic labels is because she believes people should treat each other differently based on demographics. Consciously or unconsciously.

    9. Rex Libris*

      Of course I wasn’t there, but to me this just sounds like you told yourself a story about someone else’s behavior, then chose to intimidate some kids that weren’t actually interacting with you in the first place.

    10. metadata minion*

      I might suggest next time just moving over if you notice you’re in the way. Your reaction is unlikely to inspire those kids to approach strangers who are blocking an aisle next time.

    11. Grumpycat*

      alternatively, seeing as you clearly knew you were in their way and they were trying to get past, you could just have moved?
      If I’d have overheard this I’d like to think I’d ask you not to be so rude, but probably I’d just have SIGHED.

    12. Marthooh*

      I think Alison’s advice for this is good: Start with, “Is everything okay? I’ve noticed you sighing a lot and wasn’t sure if you were frustrated or how to read that.”

  9. bripops*

    LW3: I have some neat crafting equipment that I can do some neat stuff with, and after my employer commissioned me to make some special custom bags for an employee appreciation event, EVERYONE wanted to know why I don’t have an Etsy. Alison is right because I always say “the number one way for me to start hating this would be to try to monetize it” and it has a 100% success rate of not getting asked again. in the past I’ve said stuff along the lines of there not being much money in that kind of thing but that makes people double down on how successful I could be (which I’m sure is them trying to be supportive!) so approaching it from a different angle might help

    1. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My husband is a glassblower. He’s retired and is absolutely not trying to make a living. He does have an Etsy, if only because we don’t have room for everything he makes – he works in the studio one day a week and often makes 2-3 pieces in each session. He also shows at galleries and in the studio booth at local festivals. He started off with fairly low prices because he was astonished that anyone would pay for his stuff and raised them because he realized his work was pretty good – and because he was undercutting the artists who were actually trying to make a living. People think he’s raking in the bucks (no) and that we’re going to put a glass-blowing studio in our back yard (hell, no). People just don’t get it.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, the utility/fuel bills for a kiln that’s hot enough to melt glass are beyond the means of most people… Much better to work in a studio where more than one person gets the benefit of the hot kiln.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      My standard response is similar – “I do this for fun. If I monetized it/sold it/started an Etsy it would be work, and then what would I do for fun?”

      (For people who aren’t convinced by that, I remind them that I am a senior software developer, and make the equivalent of $BIG_NUM per hour, so if I wanted a side hustle it would make a lot more financial sense for me to do freelance software development work than knitting/crocheting/sewing.)

  10. Ginger Ann*

    When people sigh at me I sigh back and more loudly. Sorry, not sorry, I can be more passive aggressive than you haha

    1. Juniper*

      But it doesn’t sound like this person is sighing *at* the LW; she’s just breathing in a way that LW finds annoying. I agree that a direct sigh when someone talks to you can be rude, but doesn’t sound like there are any undercurrents of passive aggressivness in this case.

      1. ferrina*

        Honestly, I couldn’t tell from the letter if LW even knew if it was intentional or not. I could see it being either way. I think LW either needs to ignore the sighs or ask outright- that way if the sigher is unaware, LW now knows that it’s unintentional and LW can ignore it (if it’s intentional, the sigher needs to cut down on the heavy sighs).

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      That seems like a reasonable reaction when somebody is doing it to express disapproval and insult you, but I don’t think it would be reasonable if the person is doing it without realising or because they are upset or stressed over work and it seems like the LW’s coworker isn’t doing it to insult her.

      I think if the LW were to do this, it would come across as mocking the coworker.

    3. Labyrinth Attic*

      That would just make me wonder why on Earth you would think I was being asthmatic “at” you?
      If you continued I would assume that you were either very ego-centric in assuming all behaviour must be about you and/or that you are mocking people with chronic illnesses…

    4. Rex Libris*

      This would be an incredibly immature response, and the chances it would land one on a performance improvement plan for their own attitude are not zero.

  11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #4 I suspect not firing is because TPTB feel it is such a shame they have to let the poor man go, just because of a few humourless women who don’t appreciate compliments or misunderstand friendly touching.
    /sarc

    Especially if this is in the USA, which I gather is mostly at will and can easily fire for trivial reasons.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Completely different to an employee who can’t perform to the required standard but is genuinely trying their best – in which case they really should be allowed to resign and find a more suitable job without the burden of a firing on their record.
      Also, it is normal kindness to give a small severance in such cases, where there is no deliberate misbehaviour or resume deception.

    2. Black*

      You let him resign for two reasons. First is the reduce potential legal liability for wrongful termination. Whether that would hold any water or not is irrelevant. just having to defend the lawsuit could be very costly so by letting them resign you avoid that liability. Secondly by letting them resign you also avoid any potential unemployment claims. While termination for cause usually will prevent unemployment claims, certain states have a tendency to award unemployment in cases where it probably shouldn’t have been awarded.

      So no, it likely has nothing to do with your made up misandrist scenario

      2. Employment Attorney*

        This! In my experience, this really does sum up the analysis. From the Company’s perspective, having the person removed from the workplace (whether through resignation or termination) achieves the same result and goes toward their obligation to remedy the effects of harassment and prevent its recurrence. In addition, the majority of employers I work with have moved toward neutral references, confirming dates of employment and position only. There is no functional difference, therefore, between the termination and resignation other than reducing the potential for claims from the separated employee. It is not a value judgment regarding the separated employee or their conduct.

      3. Nice try though*

        At least in my state, giving someone the option to resign or be terminated is treated as a termination for the purposes of unemployment benefits. Also, you can get unemployment if you quit (can, doesn’t mean you will, it depends on the circumstances) and you don’t necessarily get benefits simply because you were termed.

      4. AMH*

        Given that you are describing business reasons that boil down to “It’s better financially for the business to allow this person to resign regardless of if they might go on to harass or harm other people,” it’s not really a convincing defense of the decision makers.

    3. ferrina*

      I’ve been involved in one case of a male supervisor who SAed on of his direct reports.

      At first the CEO refused to do anything about it because “he’s very sorry and assured me he won’t do it again”. The person that was SAed left within a couple months, and the CEO wanted to sweep it under the rug. Luckily someone else caught wind of it, told the rest of the group, and everyone refused to work with the supervisor. He couldn’t do his job because no one would speak to him. At that point he left (I don’t know if he officially resigned or was let go), but the CEO actually said “we shouldn’t ruin his career over one mistake, and he’s very sorry.”

  12. Double A*

    Can you really fire a person if they’ve already resigned first? So if you pull them in for the conversation where you’re going to fire them and they can see the writing on the wall and resign… can you really say, “You can’t resign, you’re fired!”

    I know a lot of times the resignation is negotiated, but it does seem like a lot of times people might resign before the employer has their ducks in a row to actually move ahead with the firing, and if that is the case, what could the employer do about it?

    1. TheBunny*

      Technically sure, you could say that. But I wouldn’t. Accepting the resignation and moving on solves the problem more quickly.

    2. bamcheeks*

      I think firing / resigning is probably less important than what goes in your reference. Is the conversation / complaints going to get passed on to future employers? And you’re probably never going to know about that from the outside.

      That said, even harassers and abusers have to earn money somehow. It is absolutely galling watching someone who has harassed or assaulted someone”fail upwards” and wander off to the same or a better job somewhere else, but like, what’s the alternative? There isn’t an option for “never work again”, and an employer can’t enforce a “you’ll never work again at executive level, only entry-level”. If they’re in a regulated profession where a complaint can be passed to a regulator or they have to have some kind of background check that’s one thing, but I think for everything else you just have to accept that that’s how these things work and try and focus on the “not your problem any more” aspect.

      1. Despachito*

        “an employer can’t enforce a “you’ll never work again at executive level, only entry-level”

        However, no one can force an employer to hire that person at executive level if they knew they are a harasser. I wonder whether this can be conveyed as part of the reference, or at least lack thereof (I imagine if Bob the manager is fired for harassment and applies for a new management position, he would have to give the names of his references at the old job who can tell the new employer at least that Bob wasn’t OK and they would not rehire him)?

      2. Snow Globe*

        Sadly, I’ve also seen that even if someone is clearly fired, somehow it doesn’t seem to keep them from finding another position pretty quickly.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I think the person deciding to resign hurriedly because they know a firing is imminent, is greatly preferable to the type of discussion mentioned where resignation is explicitly offered, probably alongside an offer of a great reference.

    4. Thomas*

      The ex-employer can state in references that the ex-employee resigned while under investigation for misconduct (or whatever). Which as a reference goes is pretty much as bad as being dismissed for it.

    5. Caz*

      UK – I have known an organisation I worked at to go through a full investigation into gross misconduct after the person had resigned (immediately when she knew the investigation was starting). The conclusion was that, had she not resigned, she would have been fired, and a note to that effect was made on her personnel file for use in future references.

  13. TheBunny*

    LW#4

    Another possibility is the moment where everyone in the room KNOWS something happened but are unable to prove the thing happened for whatever reason.

    Often the guilty (allegedly) person will agree to resign. It’s not a perfect solution, but sometimes the one that gets the perpetrator away from the victim is the winner even when it’s not ideal.

    I’ve also seen this happen a lot when unions are involved. (Not saying anything positive or negative about unions, just recounting my experience.) The union rep makes it clear they are willing to argue the issue/grievance until the end of time but will agree to allow the separation provided the member is allowed to resign.

    While imperfect, sometimes offering the person the option to resign allows you to quickly get to the place where the victim can come to work safely.

    Does this suck because it doesn’t follow the perpetrator? Yes. Have I seen it happen as the most expedient way to get the person out? Also yes.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      This does not fit with my 40 years of working in unionised workplaces (engineering, Europe). Where harassment of any kind is tolerated, I’ve found it is because management likes it that way, however much they pose in public about DEI.
      I wonder if the frequent scare stories here about unions are because managers can’t cope with not being able to fire instantly at will or just scare stories to put people off unions.

      1. TheBunny*

        I’m just speaking about my experience with one particular union/union rep and thinking back on the number of times the termination grievance was settled by us agreeing to allow the previously fired employee to resign. In more than one meeting, said employee wrote their “resignation” during the meeting.

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          So just one particular bad union / rep.

          My experience in several countries and several jobs including student holiday jobs, is that unions are the best protection against such behaviour as they will advocate vigorously for the victim, whereas management are more likely to take the easiest way out, which is often to ignore or shut down the victim. Especially when the perp is high up or valuable to the organisation.

          Unions also of course fight for higher wages, better sick pay, maternity leave, pensions, vacation. We didn’t gain our better employee protections and conditions in Europe because our employers have kinder hearts. An employer in Europe who tried to campaign against unionisation would soon suffer massive loss of reputation – and likely strikes – as it would be clear why. However, I gather this is more acceptable for US employers and YMMV.

          1. Rex Libris*

            Employers in the US don’t like unions because it costs them time and money to work within union rules. They prejudice the more gullible among the U.S. workforce against unions through a combination of intimidation, misinformation, and largely, preying on the U.S. cultural inclination to value individualism over communal action.

            But that’s just my opinion.

        2. I don't know either.*

          So when you said “unions” you actually only meant one particular union.

          You may not have meant anything by it, but even these kinds of small errors make a problem sound a lot bigger than it is – and provides fodder for anti-union peeps to fuel their fire.

          Like any institution or department, the good ones never stick out. Just like we remember the horrendously wrong HR departments people write in about more than we remember the letters where HR did their job doesn’t mean all HR people are EVUL CRONIES who are only out to screw over employees to protect the company, having one bad union/rep does not mean unions always protect the bad apples.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I would disagree that this is a union rep being “bad”, though! It sounds like the union rep doing their job correctly, which is to represent their members’ interests as effectively as possible and point out that risks associated with an employer not abiding by the law or its own policies. A union is not supposed to be some kind of Moral Crusader For Justice who decides that the world would be better off without Handsy Bert, and they don’t have the power to allow or disallow a firing. If saying, “you don’t have enough documented evidence to fire Handsy Bert according to your own policies ” is enough to get a company to agree that the best option is a quick, mutually-agreed resignation, well, yeah, that’s probably the best outcome.

            1. I don't know either.*

              Reading it over again, you’re right! This rep is doing exactly what they’re supposed to do, from this account.

              It is indeed not the union rep’s job to determine whether or not someone is guilty and whether or not that means they deserve good union representation.

              1. Union Rep*

                It is part of my job to figure out whether someone is guilty, because it affects what outcomes I can get through the representation process. But it absolutely doesn’t affect whether they deserve representation!

            2. Union Rep*

              IDK I think I’m a little bit of a Moral Crusader for Justice! One purpose of a modern union is absolutely to protect workers who are victims from a worker who’s a harasser – harassment isn’t very solidaritistic! I absolutely want those people out. Usually more than management does, who’s usually just trying to duck liability and doesn’t care about what’s actually right.

              That said, I’ve been in a position where I’m fighting tooth and claw for someone I know deserves to (at least!) lose their job. It’s a bit like being a public defender: if the employer can fire someone who definitely deserves it without having proof of what they did, then it gets easier and easier for them to fire people who don’t deserve it. The “problem children” have more contact with the workplace discipline systems and consume an outsized share of the union’s defense resources. But I do it so that when I walk into a meeting with the employer about a good worker who’s actually getting screwed by a petty supervisor, they know to take me seriously.

            3. metadata minion*

              Assuming the person being harassed is also in the union, the union does have an obligation to help ensure a harassment-free workplace for members.

              1. bamcheeks*

                Right, but that’s where “resign quickly” comes in. In my experience, union reps are usually pretty pragmatic about stuff like this, often more so than managers, and if it’s a choice between a protracted or contested firing process and a fast, mutually-agreed resignation, the latter is preferable.

            4. Lady Blerd*

              I have a friend who was a union rep and is now her chapter’s president. She has told me that she’s has to represent people she didn’t care for because of what they were accused of for exactly this reason.

    2. Melissa*

      I agree with this. I work in a hospital and there is one tech (aide) who is, honestly abusive toward patients (verbally, he’s not like punching people or anything). Everyone knows this but somehow he keeps working there. The explanation from my boss is “The aides are unionized.” The hospital is not willing to undergo an enormous, long, very likely ineffective process with the union to try to terminate him; it isn’t worth their time or money unless a patient actually gets injured and can prove it. But if he were to resign? Management would breathe an enormous sigh of relief.

      1. I don't know either.*

        So management can’t be bothered to gather the proper evidence against this person because he isn’t their problem.

        That is not the union’s fault at all. That is management’s fault. All they need to do is follow proper procedures because let’s be real, “everyone knows X does Y” is actually a really bad justification to fire someone that can be abused in five seconds flat.

        Why are you assuming the process with the union would be ineffective?

        1. Union Rep*

          Yup. The process would be long because nobody bothered to start it the first time this aide did something unacceptable. It’s not the union’s fault management won’t enforce its own standards of conduct.

  14. Ladybird*

    OP1- I completely get why sighing would bother you- I grew up in a house where sighing was a prescursor to arguments and conflict that were not great.
    So I don’t like hearing sighing as my brain automatically prepares for stress headed my way.
    Ironically, I also have a medical condition that not infrequently causes inflamed ribs and sighing becomes one of the few ways I can breathe enough.
    So I would agree with Alison to ask about it and if they say something like.’oh it’s just something I do’, take them at face value and try to reframe your approach to hearing it.
    I would never mind being asked about my sighing, but I probably wouldn’t give full disclosure about my medical condition. I would want you to not be weird around me though

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Sighing is my mother wanting attention but thinking she shouldn’t have to actually ask us for it.

  15. Lily Potter*

    LW4 – probably not the primary reason for allowing the employee to resign but certainly a bonus – the employee clearly can’t claim unemployment benefits in most states if he voluntarily resigns. It’s a clean break and if that employee were to try for UI benefits anyway, the employer would only have to show the letter of resignation in order to prevail in a hearing. In my state, an employee fired for misconduct is not eligible for UI, but “misconduct” is a much murkier term, and the employer may prefer to not litigate an appeal on that, even if it would mean a claim on their policy.

    1. Orv*

      I worked for a company that got involved in a dispute over whether an employee was eligible for unemployment (they’d been fired for theft) and it was incredibly time-consuming. After that I got why companies sometimes just let people resign.

    2. TheBunny*

      This is absolutely 1000000% inaccurate. Resigning does NOT disqualify you from UI benefits.

      Does it make it harder to get them? Yes. But it’s NOT a guaranteed disqualification.

      1. Lily Potter*

        It’s not 1000% wrong in my state; though yours may have different exceptions to the rule. While there are a handful of exceptions, a voluntary resignation will keep you from getting UI (as it should, most of the time). In LW4’s case, I could see the employer not only requiring a resignation letter but also drawing up some kind of separation agreement that clearly states the resignation as being voluntary and not as a results of exceptions A, B, or C.

        1. TheBunny*

          There’s not a single US state who automatically declines UI benefits because the person resigned. Not one.

          1. SnowyRose*

            It might come down to some nuances, but for my state Lily Potter is correct. You can not claim UI if you voluntary resigned without a compelling reason such as caring for a family member with a disability.

            1. Curious*

              That seems odd. I thought that you also had to be looking for work to collect UI. If you resigned because you weren’t available for work (because of caring for family member with disability) that would seem to be inconsistent with available for work.

              1. SnowyRose*

                There are carve outs in the law. So, for example, you are likely eligible for UI if you resign to be a caretaker or you’re in a domestic violence situation, etc. Requirements around job searches probably depend on the exemption.

            2. Phony Genius*

              I think another exception is constructive dismissal (where the employer has made it almost impossible to reasonably work). But this would likely require a lot of proof to be accepted.

            3. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

              I am pretty sure (not 1000000% sure) that in my state, and many others: you can file for UI whether you qualify or not. UI will contact your former employer and ask questions to determine if you are eligible. If your employer says “they quit voluntarily,” then the UI is going to be denied pretty much 100% of the time. And the ball will be in your court to prove otherwise or to prove an exception to the rule.

          3. Dancing Otter*

            In my direct experience, not hearsay, some states do indeed reject all claims for UI after a voluntary resignation.
            The onus is on the applicant to appeal, if they believe they qualify for an exception.
            The appeals process might not have been deliberately designed to encourage applicants to give up. Not deliberately. Maybe.

            There are exceptions to being absolutely disqualified, yes, but the presumption is toward the general not the exception. It’s still worth applying, but expect a struggle.

        2. TheBunny*

          And…posting something like this is doing a major disservice to someone who may read this later and think you are correct.

        3. Pescadero*

          In most states a voluntary resignation will keep you from getting UI IF the employer challenges your UI claim… but if they don’t actively challenge you claim, it doesn’t matter what happened – you’re getting unemployment.

          It’s largely a “shall issue” system where you get unemployment UNLESS the employer contests it.

      2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Resigning because you’re bored of working there … no UI. Resigning because they stopped giving you hours or because they changed the roles/scope of the positions or because you were being harassed or lots of other things like that, often gets UI in my state. The company has the opportunity to protest the UI and can give their side. Then the UI team decides.

      3. amoeba*

        Just for any non-US readers: it’s definitely (partly) true here in my part of Europe – you do still qualify, but only after a waiting period (12 weeks in Germany, so you do lose quite a lot of money). You can indeed circumvent this, for instance by proving the workplace was abusive, your health suffered from it, etc. But you cannot just decide to quit and collect UI the next day or month.

        1. allathian*

          The same thing applies in Finland. But the difference is that all employees and employers pay unemployment insurance tax, which is used to fund unemployment benefits. We also have private unemployment funds that employees can join for an extra benefit. You can claim benefits from the unemployment fund regardless of the reason you left your previous job. On the public system, leaving voluntarily generally means you aren’t eligible for unemployment unless you can convince the authorities that it was constructive dismissal.

  16. GythaOgden*

    Agree with Alison on number 1. The first thing with someone sighing, coughing or any other sign of distress should be to ask them what’s up or whether you can get them a drink of water or they need a break or whatever. Maybe the caring response to your employee might lessen the apprehension you feel about the trigger element — getting to grips with trauma takes time, but sometimes turning a negative into a positive can help that process.

    You’re in the position of power here and the best thing to do is exercise that in a caring way rather than trying to get someone else to stop vocalising their own minor distress in your presence. Even if you weren’t their boss, they are a fellow human being and may need assistance. But as their boss, it’s your job to ensure your employees’ wellbeing at work is adequately taken care of and put your own irritation to one side.

  17. Waving not Drowning*

    OP1 – I’m a sighing person. I actually had no idea that I did it, or how long I did it for – it was only in the last few years that someone in the office commented on it, she said she could tell when I was stuck on a problem, because I’d get “huffy”. I was mortified, as its something I wasn’t conscious of doing at the time. I’ve tried to rein it in, I think I’ve stopped doing it as much – and now when working with new people I let them know I have a tendency to sigh heavily if I’m stuck on a problem, and to please speak up if I’m annoying them.

    1. Reading Rainbow*

      I apparently sigh all the time regardless of my emotional state– I had no idea I did this (and still don’t know when I’m doing it, I literally do not feel or hear it) until I got married and my husband would ask me what was wrong every time I did it. We were both really confused for a long time because I didn’t know what he was reacting to and he didn’t know I didn’t know.

      I tend to hold my breath subconsciously a lot when I’m focusing and I think I just let my breath out heavily every so often as a result. I think I also take deep breaths when settling in. It’s not a sigh-sigh, really, but like an exhalation that apparently other people can hear. I don’t notice it! It feels like normal breathing to me. It took me a long time to zero in on it after my husband pointed it out and even then I don’t notice it most of the time.

      I have to admit that reading all the comments and seeing a lot of people say they equate hearing this with a person being a passive aggressive a-hole is illuminating a lot of things for me. Over my career I’ve had a number of people accuse me of being huffy or hostile or generally unreasonable and unapproachable when I’m quietly working over the years, and I never knew why. I was always like, I’m literally sitting at my desk minding my own business all day??

      My advice to folks would be to consider that you might be reading too much into the way people breathe. Unless there’s other supporting evidence that this is someone being a jerk, perhaps leave it alone.

  18. Siiiiiiiiiiighhhhh*

    Sighing at work is such a varied thing. I once had a coworker who would give these wheezing despair-filled sighs. Maybe only two or three times a day, but they drove me up the WALL. Now I have a coworker who gives these little huffy sighs a few times an hour – but it’s more like someone hyping themselves up, like an athlete giving a little huff before setting off. And they aren’t distracting at all.

  19. bamcheeks*

    LW4 is an interesting one because I was reading a past letter called “should we let an employee resign instead of being fired?” earlier this week and the answer was very much that an employer’s jobs is not to hand out justice but to find a solution that works for *the business*. As galling as it is to see someone “fail upwards” and move onto another nice well-paid job without apparently experiencing any consequences, I kind of think the same thing has to apply here. An employer’s job is to protect their business and their workforce: removing someone from their premises and payroll in the easiest possible way and declining to give a reference is really the limit of their power.

    It’s different if someone is in a regulated or licensed profession and there is a body which can be charged with ensuring that person doesn’t work in a position of responsibility again, but otherwise, I think this can be less about “don’t ruin his career he’s such a nice man” and just as much about companies being realistic about what the limits of their powers are. They cannot be agents of retribution. It’s not what they are for.

    I think we have a much bigger philosophical problem about what kind of consequences there should be for abusive behaviours and how communities respond. But I’m not sure that companies having the power to create consequences for ordinary, non-regulated professions beyond “a bad reference” is the way to do it.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      An employer has a responsibility (at least in Europe) to provide a safe working environment. Knowing that the most severe sanctions will be imposed – firing without severance – tends to discourage the less dedicated abusers and reassure potential victims.

      Any workplace that claims to value DEI are frauds if their standard policy isn’t to fire for sexual, racial or homophobic abuse.

      Like others in high demand, I’d have avoided accepting a job where abusers know they will be free to resign and move on to repeat at their next job (and I’d have left if I later found this out). imo, such employers are selecting for potential victims who struggle to get jobs (less qualified/experienced?) – and for abusers who target such jobs as their safe environment.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I’m also in Europe (UK), and this is not my experience of how it works in practice. Very typically, employers will not be able to meet the standards of evidence and documentation they need to fire someone immediately for abusive behaviour or harassment, and if your goal is to protect your workers, an quick resignation is a much better outcome than a drawn-out investigation process or the risk of a tribunal. The vast majority of employers will (rightfully, IMO!) prioritise the wellbeing of their existing workers over trying to control the future of the abuser.

      2. bamcheeks*

        (Also, with a basic but non-expert knowledge of the evidence on abuse and harassment, I think you’re wrong about “knowing that the most severe sanctions will be imposed” deterring the “less dedicated abusers”. Punishment and the most severe sanctions are generally not great ways to prevent abuse and harassment, not least because they make victims hesitant to report poor behaviour and everyone in the chain hesitant to apply those sanctions. Good practice is usually more things like allowing people to report anonymously, good training for managers in spotting potential problems and nipping them in the bud early, setting high standards and modelling positive behaviours, and creating an environment where harassment stands out as bad. “Severe sanctions” usually require high levels of evidence and mean that the sanctions are *very* rarely applied and low-level abuse thrives.)

      3. Anonymoose*

        Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of being picky, either because of the limited options in their geographic area, or because their skill set isn’t in high demand. Some of us have to accept job to pay our bills and hope our employers don’t allow rampant abuse and bullying.

      4. SometimesMaybe*

        I do not like the concept of vigilante justice. Private companies should not determine someone’s ability to earn a living. It is tempting and a common fantasy of mine to think about ways I could retaliate against my former sexiest boss, but in reality that is not a pandora’s box that should be open. A company’s role should not be to dole out punishment, but rather to ensure their workplace is a safe place. If the offending behavior is illegal than than justice systems should be alerted, but otherwise, as much as it stings sometimes, they have no recourse.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Apologies if I’m reading this incorrectly, but are you saying that a company shouldn’t fire someone who is behaving poorly as long as the behavior isn’t illegal?

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I think the message is that firing is the recourse and is enough. The company shouldn’t be able to or try to impose permanent involuntary unemployment on any former employee. If/when a law is broken, the (ex) employee and pertinent details should be handed over to law enforcement and the judiciary.

            1. SometimesMaybe*

              Sola – Yes, thank you. An employee who “behaving poorly” should be removed, either by termination or allowing the offending employee to leave. That is the responsibility of the employer. I do not believe they should have any responsibility beyond that unless, if necessary, it involves notifying the proper legal authorities.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      But I’m not sure that companies having the power to create consequences for ordinary, non-regulated professions beyond “a bad reference” is the way to do it.

      If “bad reference” is a solution, it would need to be regulated. Otherwise, it’s just a one-sided bludgeon for retribution or even senseless sadism.

      1. bamcheeks*

        Yes, I agree! Basically, the idea of an employer being able to enact consequences beyond terminating someone’s employment (whether by accepting their resignation or firing them) is very attractive, but practically it’s giving them power which would almost certainly not be used justly.

        (And I think this comes back to the union question above— you shouldn’t give an home power to use on Bad People that you wouldn’t want them to also use on Good People, and a good system has people in place to prevent that who will necessarily end up defending Bad People too.)

    3. SummitSkein*

      “It’s different if someone is in a regulated or licensed profession and there is a body which can be charged with ensuring that person doesn’t work in a position of responsibility again…”

      We’d like it to be different, but this (scenario in L4) is exactly how we get bad cops who can shuffle from one department to the next. It -should- be regulated and yet the “resign instead of fire” thing is how agencies get around not having to record the issues that they’re having with the cop in question, as well as getting around Brady/Stacy. If it isn’t documented because someone resigned, it doesn’t have to be turned over.

  20. Hroethvitnir*

    Oh man, I worked with someone who sighed *heavily* very regularly. It was totally subconscious but I’ve never met anyone before or after who did that. It was pretty funny paired with his generally pretty flat demeanour – the sighing was so loud that it was super hard to train yourself not to ask if he was OK every time.

    To be clear, we got on really well – he was one of my favourite people I’ve worked with.

  21. Six Feldspar*

    Welp, now I’m stuck picturing OP1 and their coworker as Zapp Brannigan and Kiff from Futurama…

  22. Despachito*

    OP4: I think the company is just looking for the simplest way for them to get rid of that person, and possibly also wants to avoid a scandal that would damage its reputation even if the reason for it was good.

    I once witnessed a situation where a person was allowed to resign after significant embezzlement from the company, and the employees who knew about it were ordered to keep mum or else they would be fired. The company was quite a big name and I think they did not want to lose their creditworthiness if it became public they allowed that thing to happen in the very heart of the company. Sigh.

  23. Irish Teacher.*

    LW2, it sounds to me like she was pretty disrespectful to you. It sounds like she thinks that younger people should always defer to older people, which is ridiculous when both are adults. I would argue it would also be reasonable for a child to decline to answer the question about religion at least; age can be relevant with children, but yeah, I can imagine people thinking it cheeky coming from a child. But you are not a child and we’re perfectly reasonable. Telling you you should “respect your elders” as if you were a child is disrespectful to you.

    1. Egg Keepo*

      I mean, since she didn’t know LW2’s age, I’d be tempted to ask her how she knew she was their elder? Maybe she’s disrespecting the elder LW? Bonus points if it’s super obvious that the LW is younger :D

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yes, aside from the fact that being private about your religious beliefs and age is not rude at all, explicitly trying to subordinate someone into a child or lesser-than role definitely IS rude. This is just a random bully who got mad when someone wouldn’t play her game of ‘why you should be obsequious to me.’ Guaranteed, if OP had shared their age and religious beliefs it just would have led to more nosy questions and opened the floodgates of “advice” and criticism on how OP is doing life wrong because “you’re too young to know better”. With someone like this, it’s impossible to be nice enough that you can stop them from being a jerk. You just have to be calmly okay with them being offended by their own strange rules. I would have gone with “Sorry you’re offended but it’s not actually rude to have some privacy at work”. I also really like Egg Keepo’s suggestion too: “Well, we’re all adults, but since I didn’t tell you how old I was, I’m not sure how you worked that out!” Definitely don’t worry about her ire, OP, unless the entire workplace is full of nosy “elders” and the entire culture is toxic. In any reasonable group of people, they’ll all be well aware that she’s a pill and they will admire you for keeping your cool and your right to some privacy.

    3. Carmina*

      Some people, especially older people, get really triggered by a flat, explicit refusal to engage. The words “not comfortable” will especially do it. I think younger people and people who spend significant time online (some correlation there of course) are much more familiar with the language of boundaries and the importance of standing up for yourself etc etc.

      There are definitely softer ways to go about it, to try and preserve the relationship with such people: answer a different related question that you don’t mind answering (like the LW2 tried with the over-21 answer), making a joke out of it, changing the subject, etc etc. Keeping it light and breezy in tone is key, in my experience. But those softer options have a limit when people are rudely pushy and entitled, which she visibly was here. Still I find it’s worth trying first.
      It also insulates you from any potential witnesses thinking you were harsh: since most people are socially aware enough to know to drop a subject when people have tried to change it, they’ll recognize the other party as being boorish before the situation escalated, and they’ll be on your side later, which can be useful for your long-term prospects there in the wider scheme of things.

      1. Sar*

        yes, this.

        This softening is part of professionalism, actually, imo. Flat/hard boundaries are better suited for your personal life. The most professional, smoothest people basically never “return the awkwardness to sender” at work—instead these awkward work moments are better suited to “here is a [light, professional] script for [x].” The witness point is definitely true as well.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Nah, in this case a hard boundary is the only answer. Coworker was clearly a boundary pusher. It is not professional to ask about religion at work.

          Dollars to donuts, coworker was getting ready to try to convert OP to the right religion if they had answered. Her over the top response including respect your elders — seriously not a thing at work — is the give away.

          OP handled this exactly right.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            There were a lot of people like this where I grew up. It’s all about control. They want to control the people around them and think they’re especially entitled to control younger people, as a parent figure.
            I encountered several of them when I was young, and unfortunately there is no good way to deal with them. If you refuse to let them control you they get all offended and say you’re rude, uncooperative, etc. Some of them will escalate to deliberate punishment. If you do let them control you, they’ll try to run your life. I remember at one point, such people tried to push me into marrying the only male coworker of my age. I shut that down fast.
            It’s not always about religion, but religion can definitely be part or most of it.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          It’s not especially linked to age when you’re talking about people generally, but within certain cultures especially the type that thinks proselytising is okay, they get taught that certain people have more status; men can talk over women and elders must be accommodated over young people. If you’ve bought into that culture, then you’ve looked forward your whole life to excusing your bullying nature on being an ‘elder’. However I don’t think it will vanish entirely for future generations just because there’s more widespread discussion of boundaries, though one can certainly hope.

      3. The Rafters*

        I suspect it was far less about age and far more about religion. Co-irker wanted to proselytize and thought she could proselytize (bully) the younger OP.

        1. Ashley*

          That’s what I was thinking. At 53, I would never do this to a co-worker. I’m a hardcore f-off Gen-Xer, and this would never fly among colleagues my age in my region.

      4. skadhu*

        Nah, this is not an age thing at all, it’s a boundary/culture thing. I am pushing 70 and I was taught by my parents that insisting someone talk about religion is one of the rudest things you can do.

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Oh, yes. Money, religion, sex, and politics just were not polite social conversation. (Cue G&S, “Yes, yes, let’s talk about the weather.”)

          As for asking someone’s age?! Unless you’re asking a child you expect to be proud to announce that they are # and a half years old, just NO. If you’re close enough to ask, you should already know; if you don’t know, we’re clearly not that close.

          Calling someone out on being rude was just as bad. Even children just got the “We WILL be discussing this when we get home” look.

          Did our parents know each other?

      5. Players only love you when they're playin'*

        I had a distant relative try to probe into my personal life then complained to my parents when I refused to divulge.
        My parents tore her a new one.
        Her own family has been known to tell her off for giving unsolicited advice.

    4. Jeanine*

      If someone had the audacity to ask me if I was a christian I would absolutely just say NOPE I am an atheist and proud of it! Let them chew on that for a while.

  24. OkeyDokey*

    LW1: I empathize with you big time. I’m easily distracted and, as I said, sighing makes me 12 and unsure what I did wrong again. But at least give it time to see if it’s intentional or goes away as she gets more comfortable in the job.

    However.

    The sigher may not know they’re doing it. Excessive sighing may also be a sign of anxiety or stress – normal when starting a new job – and calling it out might make it worse.

    Anxiety, panic disorders, and other mental and physical health disorders can cause excessive sighing. I sigh a lot because of OCD and Tourette’s (which sucks because I also have sigh-related trauma!).

    I also sigh after taking a sip from a cup, and I kind of hate myself for it ha.

  26. Em*

    omg I thought the sighing one was going to be about me – I sometimes sigh heavily because of dysfunctional breathing patterns after covid and I worry that it makes people assume I’m bored or annoyed but actually it’s just so I can get enough air! I do see how it can be annoying though…

  27. Fikly*

    LW5: There’s another situation where you can be personally responsible/liable for paying for damages, essentially. HIPAA violations can carry fines that the individual responsible for must pay (often in addition to the employer).

    It depends heavily on the situation, and HIPAA tends to be designed in such a way that fines are either dropped or heavily reduced when violations are reported in a timely manner to encourage reporting of violations, but this is a situation where individual employees can end up being fined. You really do not mess with HIPAA, the fines are per each violation and get brutal fast.

  28. Dear Liza dear liza*

    Re #2: I’ll just be over here, fanning myself, realizing that since I recently turned 50 I AM an “older” worker. Nobody’s suddenly respecting me as an elder, ha (although I hope I’ve earned respect for the work I do.)

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I’m older than some of my coworkers too! Younger than some, as well. I didn’t get the sense OP meant “older than everyone”, but rather “older than me”. The story doesn’t make much sense unless OP is visibly quite a bit younger than the colleague in her fifties. The older colleague knew her younger colleague would give a lower age and this would give her peacocking rights as an “elder”. Very clever of OP to decline to play. Honestly though, these types of people are not even always right. I’m especially baby faced, and even when I was in my late thirties I would still get people assuming I was barely a graduate. I remember one particular colleague who was sad when she discovered I was in my forties and had been married and divorced because I “had no need of her advice”. If I could go back to being 21, I’d be tempted to tell everyone I was 38 just for the heck of it.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, same thing for me. One thing I really like about my department is that we have people in every decade from their 20s to their 60s, even if we aren’t particularly diverse otherwise (all white, women outnumbering men 4:1, at least a Bachelor’s degree).

        I’m 52 and getting a new manager next week. She’s the fourth manager in a row who’s younger than I am (there’s been some organizational turbulence at my job for the last 8 years or so). The two preceding managers were both at least 10 years older, and I have to say that although it felt a bit odd at first to be managed by someone who was more than 10 years younger, all the younger managers have been much better at the job than the older ones ever were. I have no reason to believe that my new manager will be any different. She’s a former peer who got a promotion and has been onboarding her new job for the past month.

    2. WellRed*

      Right?! I’m 50s and was thinking to my self, “no respecting woman in her 50s is going to refer to herself as an elder!”

        1. Workerbee*

          However old that woman is, she doesn’t have a good grasp on “respect” to begin with.

    3. The OG Sleepless*

      Right? It hasn’t helped that there have been some recent letters here about an “older” coworker who is doing something rude, so it must be because that’s how they were raised “back then,” and then it turns out they are in their 50s…my age.

      1. dear liza dear liza*

        100%. It’s like anything before 1990 was just one, long, racist, sexist time and everyone accepted it. I’m like oh no, that was NOT acceptable “back in my day.”

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Yeah, if you want a “back in my day” story from me it will be about the Apple IIe computer we had when I was a kid or the fact that Gen-X basically beta tested the internet — to show that 50 isn’t old and/or likely to hate or fear technology.

          It will not be a “back in my day” story about how racism and sexism were acceptable. People using their age to justify stuff like this would need to be 100 — and even then, they’ve had a hell of a long time to change for the better.

  29. Mizzle*

    LW3: One way I’ve explained it is that this way, I get appreciation for both of my skills. If we go with your uncle’s surgeon/peppermill example: his hospital colleague’s appreciate his surgery skills and perhaps even his peppermill-making skills, and he can make peppermills for family and friends. If he starts making peppermills as a job, who does that leave to appreciate and benefit from his surgery skills?

  30. Roscoe da Cat*

    For the person annoyed by sighing, I sigh a lot when my asthma is acting up. It’s a form of forced exhalation to clear the lungs. And it is one of my signs that I need to up the meds.

    1. LostCommenter*

      I also wanted to come say that me sighing is often just a symptom that my body is struggling to get enough oxygen and I might inhale harder, which means I exhale harder.

  31. LostCommenter*

    Regarding the hobby question: I love baking and I had my own business selling cakes for weddings and parties, yet I stopped because people didn’t realise that it cost more for me to make it as they want it compared to something they can pick up from a supermarket. I still bake for fun, but I’ve been told so much that I need to monetize my hobby, that I have a little program that takes my recipe and calculates how much I should ask to make it worth my while. So every time someone comes up with the “brilliant” idea that I should sell my baked goodies, I tell them what I’d ask for what they are eating and ask them to pay for it.

    This seems to get the idea through, as free baked goodies are always awesome, but seldom are people willing to pay for what they consumed on the spot even if they really enjoyed it so much that they told me to ask for money.

  32. Apex Mountain*

    For #4, as far as the guy being able to get a new job, would firing vs resigning really make that much difference? If someone’s doing reference checks as they should, won’t this come up anyway?

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      the details – no. Especially not if he negotiated a clean reference. If you quit, you get asked why did you leave. If you are fired, your reference gets asked why they were let go and if they are eligible for rehire.

  33. Can’t think of anything clever*

    A few times early in my career I helped a newbie to cross stitch or knitting figure out how to fix something. I wasn’t charging money to do it but a few people offered me $5 to do something like clean up a messy back on something that was a gift. At that rate you’d need to work 20 hours a day to make enough money to pay very basic bills even back in 1990 ish. Thats why hand knit sweaters cost $500 in “fancy” gift shops!

  34. Joyce to the World*

    #1, I am a sigher. I don’t do it on purpose and most certainly it is not a reflection of my mood or feelings at any giving moment. I do it because I unconsciously hold my breath. Than I sigh to catch my breathing up. It drives my husband crazy because he thinks I am mad at him. It’s just me. I would ask about it. It might not be what you think.

    1. Hyaline*

      Came here to say that I do exactly the same thing. I had an officemate who (much like LW) had an emotionally abusive parent who did passive-aggressive sighs and at first she couldn’t accept that I truly wasn’t trying to communicate anything–it was just my body’s response to holding my breath/breathing shallowly while I worked intensely and then paused. I tried to cut back but “breathe different” truly is a hard ask.

    2. Orv*

      My wife and I had the “why are you sighing at me” argument a few times before I internalized that her sighs don’t mean anything.

      I grew up in the Midwest so I was used to a very passive-aggressive sort of culture where you constantly had to pay attention to other people’s mannerisms to see if they were upset at you. She came from a much more outspoken West Coast culture and puts great stock in saying exactly what she means at all times. The idea that she might be hiding something from me was offensive to her.

  36. Indirect Report*

    Asking about religion at work, apropos of nothing, is such an aggressive move to me. There’s really no reason for it.

    I did once find out a new hire’s religion by accident – I am a supervisor on an evening shift, and I walked into our break room to get to the water cooler and saw the new guy ravenously eating. He had skipped our regular lunch break, and I quickly pieced together since it was just past sundown and the time of year that he was observing Ramadan and was breaking his fast for the day. He seemed nervous I had come into the break room to “bust” him for breaking the rules, so I quickly reassured him he was doing nothing wrong in my eyes, got my water, and told him I’d see him back out on the floor when he was done. We barely knew each other at that point but I’d like to think being respectful helped me build a better relationship with him.

    1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      Weirdest time my religion has come up in the workplace:
      Coworker: “What are you doing for Christmas?”
      Me: “I don’t celebrate, but I’ll enjoy the time off.”
      Coworker (aghast): “You DON’T CELEBRATE? I know you don’t have a family, but there’s NO ONE you can spend Christmas with?”**
      Me: “No, I don’t celebrate Christmas because I’m Jewish. Looking forward to the break!”
      Coworker: (snide): “Well, Jesus STARTED OUT Jewish, you know.” [Takes deep breath, clearly about to launch into Jesus speech of some kind.]
      Me: “See you after the New Year! Bye!” [exit stage left]

      ** I have family, biological and chosen, some of whom celebrate Christmas. What I don’t have is a husband or children, which is all that counted to her. If it matters, we were both around 40 at the time.

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        Weirdest time my religion came up in the workplace:

        During a conversation about hot flashes and period cramps (it was 100% women in the conversation and two were specifically asking for advice / ideas / recommendations).

        Me: “I just stay on The Pill 24/7. No cramps and, when the time comes, no hot flashes. And, of course, no children that I’ve never wanted.”

        Co-Irker: “But if you *got* pregnant, you’d keep it, RIGHT?!”

        Me: “What…? No. Because I *don’t want* children.”

        Co-Irker: “But, but abortion is MURDER.”

        Me: “In your religious beliefs, maybe. But not in mine.”

        Co-Irker, completely gobsmacked: “You’re not Christian?!?”

        Me: “LOL, no.”

        1. allathian*

          And even if you were, not all Christians are against abortion. I guess it depends on your definition of Christian…

  37. Guest*

    LW2: This is a matter for your supervisor. I hope they can be professional and leave their personal faith, if they practice one, out of work matters.

    LW3: Either they’re clueless about how hard it is to make a full-time living as a performer even if you’re REALLY good, they gave up on pursuing a creative career and haven’t made peace with that, or something in-between…? People have valid reasons for choosing to keep their day jobs including financial security, not wanting something they love to become work, or being on the road not fitting their idea of a happy home life. For one take on the crazy life of professional musicians, recommend that they read Mozart in the Jungle (I’ve heard the show is less realistic, so don’t rec that.)

  38. HonorBox*

    Regarding letter 3, I just talked to a friend who had a former student come back to speak to one of his current classes. The former student is in a band and the band is trying to “make it,” playing gigs all over the country. But he also shared with the current students that he also has an “actual” job because making $200 per gig ($1000 divided by 5 members) at most doesn’t make ends meet because most of the time they’re pulling travel cost from that total too. The additional detail that shocked me was the amount the band members make from streaming services like Spotify. It is fractions of a penny for each play. He told the students that the $250 check per quarter was nice, but again, wasn’t enough to make ends meet.

    OP, I think you could definitely talk to your boss and reiterate your commitment to your job over your music hobby, but that probably doesn’t seem necessary. Your coworkers obviously appreciate your talent, but let them know that you enjoy having it as a hobby but have zero desire to make it anything more than that.

    1. Pescadero*

      “The additional detail that shocked me was the amount the band members make from streaming services like Spotify. It is fractions of a penny for each play.”

      Yep… and that is more that $0.00 per play terrestrial radio pays.

    2. DJ Abbott*

      I have been involved in music for a long time and I also heard about Spotify and streaming services.
      My musician friends say it’s not sustainable and it’s already affecting the music market, but I forget the details. Basically if musicians can’t get paid a reasonable amount for their work, they’ll stop selling it. My friends say this is already happening.

  39. KC*

    LW#1: Oh no, am I the baddie??

    Like other responders, I think I am a chronic sigher. I get very absorbed in my work and forget to breathe, so sometimes I need a reset with a big sigh or a yawn. Sighing for me is also a signal of contentment — if I’m happy or if I’m satisfied with finishing a component of work a big sigh is like a nice big stretch after waking up from a nap. It feels really nice!

    I think Alison is right that you get to ask once and then it is going to come across as bossy (I’m not confident I could stop at the request of an officemate, I’ve been doing it for 40 years). If your office mate is anything like me, a stretch break every hour might also alleviate the sighing by prompting them to take some deep breaths periodically.

  40. HigherEd Boundaries*

    #4 makes my blood boil. I work in education, and we just had a situation where a former supervisor of mine was investigated for sexual harassment issues. There was evidence, photos were found, it was on social media, the whole thing. This individual was allowed to resign instead of being fired and moved on to another job. It was frustrating that after it was over, we discovered he had been allowed to resign from at least one other institution before ours for the same thing. HR did their investigation, and several students and staff are worried about whether their pictures were unknowingly taken. This could have been avoided if the first institution hadn’t just let them resign. I also recognize how my institution perpetuates the issue by doing the same thing.

  41. Apex Mountain*

    I feel like the sighing issue is more with the LW than the sigher. I wouldn’t want my boss talking to me about my breathing nor would I do that with a report of mine.

    I’d put this in the ignore category.

  42. JTP*

    RE: #3, I hear that all the time! I sometimes being naked good into work, or computer to make something for a bake sale at my son’s school, and hear “you should open a bakery! Or sell from home!”

    Been there, done that (well, worked in a bakery, not owned one), hated it. And my home kitchen would never pass cottage food laws in my state. And I just plain wouldn’t want to!

    People don’t realize that doing your hobby professionally often doesn’t look anything like doing it for fun. Oh, you love decorating cookies? Decorate these 10 rolling racks of cookies all the exact same way.

    If I never see another gingerbread man in my life, it will be too soon.

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          One of the bakers where I had my Saturday job used to put raisins on the crotch as well as for the eyes…

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Oooh, this too! I am a hiker/backpacker and I dehydrate my own dinners and snacks. Friends are like, You should start selling this stuff! And I’m like, oh hell no! I usually cite food safety regulations but also I don’t like cooking *that* much, only enough to ensure I don’t get hungry.

      1. JustaTech*

        A while back on Bon Appetit’s YouTube channel one of their chefs (Claire Saffitz) was doing “Gourmet Makes” where she would re-create “junk” food in the kitchen.
        One of the things she made was instant ramen, using a dehydrator to turn her stock into powder. Several of the other test kitchen chefs asked how much it would cost if she sold the soup packets, just on ingredients, and it was like $50 a bowl.
        “Oh wow. Like, this is really good, but it’s not $50 good.”

  43. Jane Lane*

    Re: LW 1 — My husband always asks me what is wrong when I am perfectly fine and when I am perplexed at the question tells me that I sighed. I always respond that I was just exhaling. It had no significance. And it has been really annoying for me during our entire relationship, tbh, to be constantly questioned based on breath leaving my body. However, my husband did grow up in a very abusive home, and now I’m wondering if that has contributed to his sensitivity and over-interpreting of my breathing. So thank you for that possible insight.

    Like Allison said, you can’t police breathing, so hopefully your employee can rein it in, but if they are like me, they honestly have no idea they are sighing and it isn’t indicative of any particular feeling or thought.

    On a side note, I have so much respect and compassion for you. I see daily how my husbands childhood continues to affect him decades later and how hard he works to move forward and live his own beautiful life. I wish you so much joy and happiness in the future.

    1. Orv*

      It’s a common issue for abuse victims. They end up hyper-aware of everyone’s mannerisms, because they learn to “manage up” their parents’ moods by looking for signs they’re upset and either getting out of the way, or heading off the issue.

  44. Tobias Funke*

    I am pretty sure I do the sighing thing because I am bad at breathing! (This is not on purpose and I’m trying to learn.) It’s like I’ve got awake apnea – I don’t breathe and then I need air so I’m yawning and sighing.

    Please do your best to divorce the sighs by your employee from the sighs by your parent – I also have a parent who controlled the entire family by deflating and expecting everyone to fuss and fret. But that’s not what everyone is doing. (in fact, I sometimes wonder if I’m bad at breathing from 17 years of being constantly on edge and holding my breath without realizing). I know it’s annoying and I don’t want to dismiss how annoying it is. It’s just not always malevolence or passive aggression.

  45. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

    LW1, I think Alison’s approach is a reasonable approach but you should know that sighing can also be a meditative activity. I do it in my office when I get stressed or want to refocus although I try to only do it when no one is around. I’m not saying to mention it at all when/if you speak to them because I know I would be embarrassed if someone asked me if I were meditating at work but you should know that there are can be a lot of reasons why someone may audibly sigh at work. If my coworker mentioned that they hear it, I would probably say I wasn’t aware that I was doing it but that I would try to dial back and then do so.

  46. FluffskyMom*

    For #1, the sigher: As an AuDHD human, I sigh, A LOT. Asking how to read the situation is great advice. Here’s why I sigh: I hold my breath. I don’t realize I do it because it is a sensory thing and helps with concentration, and then I end up sighing. It’s nothing but a big, audible, breath of air. And if that person is the similar, and they very well could be and NOT EVEN KNOW IT, then telling them to stop sighing is definitely telling them to mask. We aren’t responsible for being triggered, and we are responsible for dealing with our triggers.

    1. Maggie*

      This has been an amazing comment section for me because this is exactly what I do and I never thought about it! Really hope the folks I’ve worked with have used other clues to figure out that there’s really nothing crabby or passive -aggressive about it.

  47. Cici*

    I visited a small museum with my MIL once and she told me she always knew which room I was in because she could hear me sighing. I didn’t even know I was sighing! I think it’s part of my breathing pattern. I’m slightly more aware of it now but it’s hard to control.

  48. Medium Sized Manager*

    When in office, I worked with a sigher, and it drove me nuts because she only did it when getting to work and settling into her desk. It was like she was resigning herself to coming to work every single day! I started getting coffee or blasting my headphones when I saw her coming in just to give myself some mental peace.

    1. metadata minion*

      She might have hated coming in to work every day, but I think it’s just as likely that either she was slightly out of breath from the walk to the office or she was breathing more deeply to settle into a more focused state of mind. I’ve definitely noticed myself sighing as kind of a “Ah, here we go” before starting something.

    2. allathian*

      Lots of people take a deep breath and release it as a sigh to focus. It’s even a part of some meditative practices.

      I also think it’s way past time to stop trying to police people’s attitude to their work. They’re allowed to hate their job and to decide to continue doing it anyway. It’s not as if your coworker was complaining constantly about how horrible the job was. Workplace venting among peers can have its place, but if it’s constant, it’s also fine to ask the Negative Nelly/Neil to stop complaining.

      But because the sighing was limited to the start of the workday, I think you’re seeing negativity where there was none.

  49. Jennifer Strange*

    Not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I’m mildly asthmatic and sometimes I sigh because I’ve had to basically force myself to take a deep breath.

    1. SpaceySteph*

      Yes I was thinking similar. I have shortness of breath as a symptom of long covid (since my first bout of covid in Dec 2020, pre-vaccine). It is usually manageable but there are times when its particularly bad and I have to force in a deep breath. A lot of people interpret it as a heavy sigh.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I don’t think anyone who isn’t a total jerk wouldn’t give someone some grace who legitimately couldn’t help it, but if the person is just doing it out of habit then the OP could be a little more tolerant, but the sigher could also be a bit more mindful in a shared space.

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Sure, I’m not saying the OP is an awful person for being bothered by it, just that it’s not always an indication of dissatisfaction or anger.

      2. SpaceySteph*

        But confronting someone about it could put them in the position forcing them to disclose a medical condition they may not be interested in disclosing AND of making them feel badly about a medical condition.

        I think Alison’s instinct that this is too close to “policing how people breathe” is correct. Could point it out once under the guise of “are you ok? that was a big sigh!” but don’t push the matter.

  50. HannahS*

    OP1, this sounds like a “ask something once and then ignore it.” Asking someone not to sigh at work sounds kind of wild to me–it’s not like they’re drumming their fingers incessantly or humming.

    I sigh/take a deep breath at work when I’m tired or when I need to relax/change tasks/reset so, let’s say less than daily, but more than weekly. There used to be four of us crammed into a one-person office, so quarters were tight. A few times, one of my coworkers would say something like, “You all right over there?” I guess on those occasions I sounded particularly frustrated. But I generally would say something light like, “Ah you know, long day,” and then we’d get back to work. I would not have appreciated someone having a quiet talk with me to not sigh. It would feel like being told I’m not allowed to take a deep breath to relax.

    If your coworker, like me and others, sighs without intending it as communication for other people, then you can ask once like Alison suggests, and then be reassured that their sighing has nothing to do with you. Maybe get headphones if it distracts you.

    If your coworker DOES sigh as a form of passive-aggressive communication, the best tack is to ignore it.

    1. Anon for this*

      I think it’s actually very similar to drumming fingers at work because people can also do that subconsciously as a way to help with stress / a concentration. Doesn’t change the fact that it can be distracting to others, though.

  51. Workerbee*

    #2 So many of us are brought up believing that just because someone asks us a question, we have to answer it in the way they see fit – or answer it at all.

    Which then enables the reverse, where people are all too good at weaponizing that belief and indulging in becoming offended when you don’t do what they want.

    Bravo to you, OP #2, for keeping your cool and standing your ground. And then you’re even concerned if YOU were being rude! Which is what blowhards like your coworker depend on. I hope she gets reassigned elsewhere. (Cynical side of me thinks she was probably moved away from someone else she’d annoyed.)

  52. dulcinea47*

    To make what I make now doing my hobbies full time… I’d have to sell a pair of socks for about $400. I tell people this when they encourage me to monetize hobbies. It makes them blink.

    1. Scholarly Publisher*

      Many years ago when I rode the bus regularly to work, I’d knit socks on my commute. So many people would say “wow, you could sell those!” And I’d just smile and say “nah, then it’s not fun”.

      Or they’d say “wow, you must save a lot of money knitting your own socks!” “Nope, the yarn alone costs more than a ten-pack of socks at Target.”

      I did find that knitting with DPNs made people less likely to sit by me, though!

  53. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    #5 – Breakage.

    Yeah, your boss was not only a jerk, but also a lousy businessperson. Unless this was a 10-foot-long copper espresso machine, handcrafted in Italy, the time and effort involved in getting an employee to write a personal check was more than the cost of the coffee machine in the first place.

    I’ve worked grocery and wine. Dropping a jar of salsa = just write it off, takes 15 seconds. Dropping a case of salsa = just write it off, takes 20 seconds. Dropping a case of salsa every day = take more time, and if necessary complain to the manufacturer that their cardboard is slippery. Dropping a palate of salsa because you aren’t forklift-certified = discipline/firing.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      It has been a couple of decades since I was in a class that even touched on this, but isn’t office furniture a depreciating asset? As in, every year it’s financial value as an asset to the company gets less until it goes to zero (and it’s a standard time frame, not whatever each business wants). So who the heck is he trying to keep the office furniture “nice” for?

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I’m reading between the lines, but it sounded to me like the boss was trying to set up a bunch of coworker spaces and wanted everything to be pristine in order to impress potential clients and/or investors.

        1. LW5*

          Also, interestingly, this was definitely not a coworking space or a situation of wanting to impress investors. Just a regular old office. I think they were very concerned with image, and preserving every cent. Even at the cost of…losing money on extremely inefficient processes.

          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            Well I’m kinda surprised at the whole business model then. Even a medium-sized law firm would hire a non-attorney facilities manager for this, not rely on a partner, since every minute your boss spends agonizing over in-boxes is a minute he isn’t billing clients.

            1. LW5*

              It was a huge law firm. I was the “facilities manager.” Owner was an attorney who somehow found the time to be extremely and excessively involved in all office matters. ALL. I can’t really make sense of it either.

              1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

                ohhhhh wow. I have some fun experiences working as an IT contractor/supplier to top-200 firms from back in the day, but nothing like this. What a loon.

      2. LW5*

        As far as I could gather, the owner had invested personally in furniture, and did not want to see a dollar lost on that investment. Everything was labelled and tracked with inventory software down to the last paper tray (literally) and it was a nightmare. I spent hours swapping IDENTICAL chairs so that the right chair was in the right place.

        1. HonorBox*

          That’s a wildly inefficient way to look at that. Sure, someone who owns a business wants to get the most out of the things they invest in. But it is a business and there’s a certain amount of cost that it takes to do business. And if you’re expecting people to actually use them to do the work that brings in more money for you, things will get scuffed, scratched, dented and occasionally broken.

          Spending the time to track inventory is such a waste, too. You’re so concerned about paper trays that you’re spending more money to protect something that probably cost $3.

        2. Dancing Otter*

          Inventory tracking on non-capitalized expense items? What was his capitalization threshold, $1.98?

      1. Kay*

        Did the employee who had to pay for it at least get to keep it?! It seems absolutely bonkers either way, but it’d be even worse if the company had them pay for the machine and then KEPT IT.

      2. AVP*

        lol! Geez.

        I knew someone who, very early in their career, maybe in like their first week of work at their first salary/office type job, ordered all of the wrong office chairs. For the whole office. They didn’t fit, they couldn’t be returned, etc etc. She was terrified to tell her boss but he was like, you’re new! People make mistakes! We’ll just do a tax-deductible chair donation to a charity and write it off. And that was probably 5-10k…would love to hear what your old boss would have had to say about that.

    3. HonorBox*

      I worked in a restaurant. Plates broke. Ingredients were dropped on the floor. We had more than one experience where we mis-cooked an item (think a steak cooked more well-done than customer wanted). The owner would have been very upset had someone messed up and didn’t put all the eggs in the walk-in causing them to spoil. But when the steak came back, he was right there sharing the remnants with the rest of the kitchen staff.

    4. juliebulie*

      The guy’s a lawyer… so if he wants someone to write a check for a scratched desk, he should have to PROVE that person scratched it. Beyond a reasonable doubt.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      I find it’s especially helpful when thinking about this to think about the state laws that do prevent charging employees for this sort of thing. At least the few I’ve worked in, the wording makes it clear that stuff breaking is a cost of business and you cannot charge employees for a cost of business. Even if you suspect (or know) the employee broke the thing due to negligence OR malice, it’s still the cost of doing business. You can fire the person for doing the thing, but you can’t charge them for it.
      Just like you can’t not pay someone for working unauthorized overtime. You can fire them for doing it. But you can’t not pay. This isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison, I know, but the underlying mindset I find needs to be the same.

      1. LW5*

        Thank you. It looks like in my state it would not be legal to charge the employee in this circumstance.

        But really the legality of it wasn’t my main concern. I know lots of things are technically legal that aren’t ethical and aren’t things that reasonable companies would consider doing.

  54. BigBaDaBoom*

    Lw3 – I definitely struggle with this. I do pottery as a hobby and I get so tired of people going off about how I can sell those blah blah why don’t you quit and be an artist! If I try to explain how untenable it is to try to make a living that way, especially when there are SO many potters more talented and prolific, they think I’m just disparaging myself and try to buck me up. I eventually have to go with the “when you turn a hobby into a business it ruins the fun” kind of tack. I make really good money at my job. While I don’t exactly like the job, I reeeeally like the stability.

  55. Slighly Less Evil Bunny*

    OP#2 – as a 57-year old woman (I’m also post-menopausal and a childless cat lady ;) ), I just want to put out there to the world that we’re not all d-bags.

    1. Angstrom*

      *Every* demographic group seems to have a few members devoted to perpetuating sterotypically bad behavior.
      If nothing else, they can reinforce our resolve to not Not Be Like That.

    2. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      Yeah, there’s been a lot of “older colleague treated me horribly” stories about people my age or thereabouts on here lately, and I hope there isn’t a trend of Gen-X people being asshats in the work place. I’m glad the 20somethings are coming here to ask advice of Alison, who (as I recall) is also Gen-X , rather than just assuming we’re all a bunch of old jerks!

  56. BigBaDaBoom*

    Lw1 – I, sadly, am a sigher. I don’t even tend to realize I do it until someone’s like “well that’s a heavy sigh!” I don’t know if I could stop it if someone indicated it bothered them. I’d just probably beat myself up about it after the fact and feel like The Worst

  57. Alicent*

    #2 reminds me of a now defunct etiquette website and forum I used to belong to. People would freak out if you didn’t use traditional etiquette rules (that were about making people comfortable) that specifically made people uncomfortable. For example I do NOT want to be addressed as “Mrs John Doe” when my real title is “Dr Jane Doe” and everyone calls the male doctors by that title. These people who claimed to be the epitome of politeness could not handle not wanting to use antiquated rules that were made up for a very different society hundreds of years ago.

    I also have to side-step the religious questions at work from clients on occasion because I’m decidedly not Christian (or religious at all) and it gets really uncomfortable.

    1. DJ Abbott*

      I had a boss who had been raised with old-fashioned etiquette. At one point he was making me so uncomfortable, I had to say something.
      He refused to acknowledge my discomfort and insisted he couldn’t help his “politeness”. I’m not sure what was really going on there, but it was ugly, and I had to call it off so it wouldn’t damage our relationship.
      Yikes.

      1. April*

        Yeesh. I had a mentally unstable camp boss (she did a lot of harm to her kids emotionally) who insisted on calling me “Miss Alicent” and making the kids do the same. I asked her repeatedly not to do that because I hated it and we were in New England and no one was from the south. She had a temper tantrum and yelled at me that it was “polite.”

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Sounds like it’s really about control. These people who insist they’re so polite are actually trying to force their ways on us.

    2. metadata minion*

      Heck, even in the “Mrs. John Doe” era a woman was addressed by her professional title in a professional context! “Mrs. John Doe” is a social title.

  58. Blue Cactus*

    Another frequent sigher here – I breathe less frequently when I’m focused, so deep breaths and sighs sometimes happen to even out the oxygenation in my lungs.

    I think you can bring it up politely (“I’ve noticed you sigh pretty frequently, is everything alright?”) but if the answer is akin to mine, there’s not a lot you can do. I don’t even realize I’m doing it and I would have no idea how to begin changing my breathing pattern.

  59. Crose*

    LW1: not sure if the sighing is verbal, or more of a heavy exhale, but if it’s the latter, it might be a respiratory issue that they’re having to take a louder, deep breath to compensate for rather than something they can easily control.

  60. SometimesMaybe*

    The sighing – even if the office mate is sighing in frustration, they aren’t sighing at anyone. Work/Life/People can be difficult sometimes, I kinda feel like a quick sigh is a perfectly fine way to realign yourself. And yes I am an emotional sigher, I don’t do it to be abuse people or be passive aggressive, it just helps temper my reactions sometimes. Would you be as annoyed if they were say squeezing a stress ball?

    1. allathian*

      Yes, this. I really think it’s time we stopped policing people’s attitude to their job. People are allowed to hate a job and keep doing it regardless, as long as they aren’t constantly venting about it.

  61. Alex in Marketing*

    LW1: I wanted to offer some perspective that might help. Some people with ADHD (as well as other neurodivergent people to my knowledge) use sighing as a stress/anxiety relief method. I often do this without noticing and it’s something I’ve had to work to become more cognizant of in the workplace because it can read as annoyance/frustration/tiredness/aggression.

    I’ve had people say: “Oh! I hope you aren’t frustrated by XYZ.” I typically respond that I was just breathing a sigh of relief, which helps me refocus on the task at hand. I thought this might be a helpful perspective.

  62. Nat20*

    re: LW1, I sometimes need to take a deep, full breath while I’m working. Don’t really know why, it’s just a compulsion that happens occassionally when I’m focusing, but it’s not tied to any aggravation or impatience. People have asked me “what’s wrong” when it happens (understandably), and the first time someone spoke up I realized it probably sounded like a sigh when to me it was just a deep breath.

    So it’s not a terrible thing to bring up, just keep in mind it’s possible that she’s just taking occassional deep, audible breaths.

  63. Gigi*

    Letter 1: I’m a sigher. I also talk to myself. Basically, I’m a noisy person. Thankfully, I’m otherwise delightful so people put up with me.

    Once I had a retired Army colonel working for me in his second career. His cube was right outside my office. I was getting coffee one day and I must have sighed, because he said “I’ve learned your sounds don’t mean anything.” His military career trained him to be tuned into the boss so evidently he’d been analyzing my sighs for weeks. It was so wholesome.

    1. Lab Boss*

      That’s charming, and I’m now picturing him taking meticulous notes of your sighs (time, duration, volume, relation to mood and workload) before realizing he couldn’t find a pattern.

  64. Pizza Rat*

    The increasingly prevailing attitude that we are supposed to monetize hobbies into side hustles drives me nearly around the bend. Hobbies are meant to be relaxing and fun and engaging in a totally different way from the way one makes a living.

    I’m not saying side hustles are bad. It’s more than hobbies have value even if they’re not bringing in any money whatsoever. Intangible value is still value.

    1. Lab Boss*

      A lot of the comments are about the hazards of trying to turn a hobby into a career (justifiably, since that’s what the LW said her coworkers were saying). But yeah, even making it a side hustle is annoying. I picked up an artistic hobby a couple years ago and mostly just create until I have a stack of art, then give it all away (to strangers in a local buy-nothing group if necessary) just so I can start again. For a few good friends I charged for custom pieces just to cover the cost of the specific higher-end materials they wanted, and even that made the process feel a little icky and pressured (and that’s even with them actively offering me more $). I can’t imagine how much joy would be sucked out of it if I tried to price and sell everything.

  65. HailRobonia*

    #1: “Full disclosure, it might be a trigger for me because my emotionally abusive parent used to walk around the house sighing.”

    This sounds like it could be misophonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia). The Ologies podcast had a recent episode about it and it was quite illuminating to me – it helped me understand that some people aren’t just being “too sensitive” but have real fight-or-flight reactions to certain unpleasant sounds.

    1. Nina*

      Misophonia is ‘this sound is intensely upsetting to me and triggers my fight-or-flight reaction for no apparent reason’.
      A PTSD or cPTSD trigger is ‘this sound is intensely upsetting to me and triggers my fight-or-flight reaction because it reminds me of a traumatic experience’.
      I have misophonia around chewing noises. I do not have PTSD.

  66. Cinnamon Stick*

    I learned not to talk about religion when I lived in the US South and made the mistake of being “out” as agnostic. I was treated differently going forward and was regularly subjected to Christian conversion efforts.

  67. Ms. Whatsit*

    LW3, I haven’t had the “you should quit this and make that your main job!” thing, but I have had the non-profit special of “monetize your hobby for our cause!” suggestion. It was mostly one very kindhearted person, and she wasn’t pushy about it, but if we held, say, a potluck dinner, “we should make an [org name] cookbook!” so I kind of laughingly responded that she was suggesting a lot of work for me (and of course we were swamped already!) and I wouldn’t even get the benefit. We were all doing a lot for a little already; let me keep my hobbies.

    I’d be open to monetizing some hobbies but am not willing to make a significant effort to do so. I signed up for a craft fair once thinking I’d sell accumulated things I’d already made (non-food) only to find that I stressed about having enough “stock” and pushed myself to make more – only to not sell anything there. It really made something I love a bit joyless to do, so I figured I’d be open to relatively passive options (FB listing, selling to friends) but just not repeat that. There’s nothing wrong with turning a fun activity into a side hustle, but it seems like that’s becoming almost expected, and it’s not for everyone or what everyone wants.

  68. SnookidyBoo*

    In regards to being an artist – I DID that, for over a decade. Making an actual living out of it is part insane hard work (think 80 hours a week promoting, creating, and covering every single aspect of a company by yourself) and part sheer dumb luck.

    I know artists who make an actual high income living out it. But I was not one of the lucky ones and I opted out and now work at a library.

    Things I will not miss:

    – The incredible disrespect/actual loathing this country has for creative work. People are more than happy to consume, but would rather gnaw their ankle off than give you a single dime for it.

    When I told people I was an artist they looked at me like I was a wadded dirty piece of gum on their shoe and then came the inevitable ‘…you can make money off of that?’

    – ‘Why is this so much money!?!??’

    – ‘Can’t you just like, give it to me for free? I’ll mention you on my instagram.’

    – ‘My 13 year cousin can do this, why should I buy it?’

    – ‘When are you getting a real job?’

    – and what killed art entirely for me, which was the grind. Creating became a hassle. It actually started to give me a headache to even THINK about starting a piece and my art turned shitty and then I started to hate myself because no one was interacting with it on Instagram. It became a really toxic cycle.

    I ended up stopping all creativity for years, and now I only create things when I feel like it and share it only with my other art friends. Much less stress.

    1. Mystery Writer*

      I’ve self-published a few novels and while the publishing part was easy, the marketing was not. It’s so time consuming to promote yourself, or you need to pull in people to do it for you and manage them. It takes so much energy there isn’t much left for the actual creation.

      I don’t know how artists on Patreon do it with all the extra content some provide.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      For the record, it is not just the US that has this problem, if the complaints of my co-hobbyists in Europe are at all representative. We’re all “just playing around” and “I could buy that at [store]”. You do that, then.

      1. SnookidyBoo*

        Ha! Someone actually told me ‘I can buy that at Walmart’ before they walked away from my booth. It’s sad that the disrespect is such a universal thing for creatives.

  69. Apex Mountain*

    I think most of the people who tell hobbyists they should go full time are just trying to complement them, not give serious career advice.

      1. HonorBox*

        And it is one thing to say it once. The way it seems in the letter, coworkers have been commenting about this for weeks.

  70. Spencer Hastings*

    “On the other hand, if I were annoying someone in this way without realizing it, I’d want them to tell me.”

    This was interesting to read, because I wouldn’t! Not at work, anyway. If you actually live with someone or are otherwise close, sure, go nuts. But I figure that when we go out in public, other people may do things we think are annoying, and that’s just a fact of life and it’s our job as adults to deal with it appropriately.

    I have a sigher and a whistler in my general area at work. Sometimes I fantasize about asking them to stop (and I’m curious how someone ended up thinking it was at all OK to whistle at work), but…where would that lead? Maybe the next day, they say to me that they hate the smell of coffee, so could I please stop drinking it at my desk?

    Then we’d get into a cycle of nitpicking and policing each other’s behavior and making ourselves smaller. Who wants that? Better to head it off at the pass and accept up front that people have their little quirks and habits and as long as it’s not actually hurting someone*, that’s got to be OK.

    (*If being within 20 feet of the coffee is causing an allergic reaction, or if someone is making racist remarks, then yeah, we need to talk.)

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Or you could ask them to dial it back rather than stop entirely.

      It’s a shared space–everyone has to compromise. If that means some people have to be a little more tolerant of noise it means others can be more aware of the noise they make, and both can give a little.

      1. Anon for this*

        This seems like common sense ? I guess not? No wonder America is having such trouble getting people to mask up…

    2. Bookworm*

      I have a coworker who sniffles, snorts, gurgles all day long. She apparently has bad allergies and tells us she refuses to treat them because she doesn’t believe in medical stuff at all. She is so loud that I’ve been on the phone with customers and they’ve asked what the background noise was.

    3. wendelenn*

      — (and I’m curious how someone ended up thinking it was at all OK to whistle at work) —

      Too many viewings of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs?

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      I was so, so grateful for the co-worker who asked me if I knew I was sucking air between my teeth… all day long.

      I had *no idea* I was doing it. It was essentially a soothing tic, like bouncing your leg under the table.

      He sat on the other side of my fabric cube wall behind my monitor, facing me. So our heads were maaaybe 3-4 feet apart from each other. The poor guy!

      I made him promise to tell me when I did it (“You’re doing it again.”). And if he or I were on calls (we were in Sales) I told him to kick the cube wall.

      It took a few weeks, but I eventually broke the habit.

  71. Jiminy Cricket*

    LW3: So many people (understandably, because they don’t work in that world!) don’t understand the economics of most creative jobs. For example, the average book advance is somewhere between $5k and $50k. A tiny, tiny percentage of authors ever earn back their advance and start getting royalties on top of that. Even if you sell a book a year — which is not reality — you can’t quit your day job.

    My message to folks would be, “I’m doing what I want to be doing and very happy here. How’s that TPS report coming?”

    1. I Have RBF*

      Most authors that make a living at it churn out at least 4 full novels a year, and they all sell well. That is a very rare skill, and it’s a lot of work.

  72. kiki*

    Letter 4: In my experience in the US when I’ve seen someone be allowed to resign rather than be fired, it’s usually because the employee was a long term or high profile employee who was a friend of leadership, so they’re given special treatment.

    But I’ve also seen organizations give somebody the option to resign before going through an official investigation process. From the organization’s perspective, it saves them time, effort, and resources to skip the investigation and just be rid of the problematic employee. But as Allison says, it contributes to a larger problem where abusers are able to move from organization to organization.

  73. cat lady*

    My boyfriend is a huge sigher when he is writing emails. I never knew until the pandemic and we were stuck in a tiny apartment. I like to ask him if he is giving birth to his emails as a passive aggressive way to let him know he is being too loud :). It makes me wonder how annoyed all his pre-2020 coworkers used to be with him.

  74. Paris Geller*

    I sit next to a sigher and it does drive me crazy, but I definitely feel like I can’t say anything and go the headphone route.

  75. Le Sigh*

    We can’t even breathe anymore without being talked to about it?

    We can’t be human without someone needing to manage someone out of normal mammal behavior.

    This is wild.

    1. Not your typical admin*

      Letters like this make me paranoid because I literally never notice behavior like this. It makes me wonder if I’m the one doing the “odd” things people notice, lol.

      1. UKDancer*

        Yeah me too. I mean I notice when a colleague burst into song (she had an ear-worm which she shared with the rest of us) but otherwise no. I don’t really notice what other people do with their bodies and couldn’t tell you who sighs and who doesn’t.

    2. Oh Dear...*

      Seriously. I’m so glad the people in my cubicle farm are also sighers/mumblers/self-talkers. We’re not doing it AT anyone, we’re all just stressed and hyper-focused on what we’re doing; if it’s directed at anything, it’s at whatever system we’re working on that isn’t cooperating, LOL.
      We all just put on headphones if we don’t want to hear it.

      But I did work with a terrible woman once who interrupted me and sharply asked, “Why are you BREATHING like THAT? What’s WRONG with you??” She was such a bitch about it, I instantly knew I couldn’t very well tell her it was due to stress, LOL.

  76. SleeplessKJ*

    Re #1 – ask about it! She may not realize she’s doing it. I am guilty of being a “sigher”. It doesn’t mean anything is wrong, it’s more of a “tic” that helps me release anxiety.

  78. Body*

    I sigh because: I have breathing issues (literally), stress from pain, and the constant feeling that I’m not getting enough air (sighing dyspnea).

  79. AllTheSighs*

    Oh goodness I am the sigher. I mean not this employee in specific, but I do it. It is a sound I make when I am thinking! THINKING! and I can not do it if I’m paying attention to not doing it, but see: thinking sound. The hmms and the huhs and other things I have managed to get quiet enough that you’re not hearing it (I am still making the sounds), but the ‘I have reached my conclusion, whew’ sound remains.

    All of this to say that it is entirely possible that the employee in L1 is not distressed in any way.

  80. WarblerB*

    Oh man, I sigh a lot and work in a cubicle-this gave me pause for thought. I often think of sighing like a deep breath and exhale to center myself-it often has nothing to do with frustration (for me). I do it a lot when I’m about to start a new task.

  81. Aeri*

    Re: The sighing, I am someone who sighs quite a bit, but not for any emotional reason. It’s going to sound silly, but when I get really focused, I sometimes forget to breathe. As soon as I realize (subconsciously, I often don’t actually notice unless someone points it out), I inadvertently take a deep breath and the exhale comes out as a sigh. People around me have commented on it, so I’ve tried to be more aware and not do it, but it’s hard because breathing is just something you’re supposed to do lol. Idk how many people out there are missing the same brain cell as me, but there’s a chance it’s something silly.

  82. Pam Poovey*

    #2: I’d have had a very hard time not responding with “I didn’t tell you me age, how do you know you’re an elder?”

  83. Beth**

    I had the reverse of #3, a team member who from day 1 made it clear that this job was just a stopgap until they published their novel.

    I held my tongue. I know plenty of would be novelists and also published writers who have to have a day job to get by.

    Then the team member actually sold their novel — for a respectable 5 figure sum. And the comments about leaving stopped. Because they realised that several years of hard work had just earned them about 10% of their annual salary.

    They are now working on their second novel in their spare time but working much harder in the daytime because they have realised the end to the day job is nowhere in sight.

  84. Nicole Maria*

    LW1: I haven’t checked if anyone else has said this, but for me when I sigh at work it’s because I catch myself not breathing deeply enough when I’m overly-focused or a little stressed out.

    So it could very well be a “let me literally catch my breath” sigh rather than a “I’m having an emotional reaction to something” sigh.

  85. Gila Monster*

    LW5: a prior employer once asked my whole team to sign new contracts, indemnifying them if we made any mistakes at work. Given that we worked in an area akin to worker’s comp, this could have exposed each of us to multimillion dollar lawsuits, which we obviously didn’t have insurance for. I quietly organized everyone to tell the company to take the contract and shove it, and they quickly backed down.

  86. Llama face!*

    Regarding the sighing, there are several medical conditions that could be at play so it absolutely could be a “this person breathes differently and cannot control it” scenario. I didn’t read through all the responses, but one example would be that autistic people are more likely to have breathing differences. Apparently, it can be related to autonomic systems not performing right. It can also be a stress relieving tic.

    My suggestion would be to ask about it only once and, if the person indicates they are not in distress, then assume it is something they cannot control and leave it be. I understand there is baggage with your mom’s behaviour when you were growing up, but, as legit as your trauma is, this person shouldn’t be painted with her motivations for something that is very likely not intentional. That’s something you’d be best dealing with at the source, either by avoiding the trigger (headphones?) or working on dealing with the trauma association (therapy?).

  88. Cathy*

    I once ordered $6,000 worth of product that we didn’t need & couldn’t return. Thankfully, they didn’t make me pay it back!

  89. Innominata*

    re: OP #1, I’m a semi chronic sigher and it’s related to a medical condition- sometimes my oxygen level drops for no particular reason and the unconscious response is sometimes a sigh or a yawn, but the sighs aren’t emotion-based and the yawns aren’t because I’m tired, I just need more air for a sec! I typically don’t even notice when they become more frequent unless someone around me points it out. I would be sad to hear I was upsetting someone but I also couldn’t stop it if I tried.

  90. These Boots*

    Sorry if someone already said this…

    There are health reasons that can cause someone to sigh. Don’t assume it’s disapproval or boredom.

  91. Professional Cat Lady*

    LW3 – I also do a lot of crochet and knitting, and I am constantly getting asked if I’m going to make it into a business.

    the answer is always “No, because I’d start to hate it.”

    I have a wonderful (sometimes stressful) and incredibly fulfilling job. my hobby is my hobby, and I don’t want to turn it into a source of stress for me!

    Usually that’s enough to get very well-meaning people to back off.

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