open thread – August 9, 2024

by Alison Green on August 9, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Screaming Externally*

    One of our field guys keeps deciding he needs material with a very quick turnover, being told no (there’s a queue, he has to wait in it like everyone else), and then immediately turning around and sending someone to pick it up. Anyone want to write me a script for “your boss [aforementioned entitled field guy] is a fucking idiot no one respects and I want to break his kneecaps sometimes, so—while I know this isn’t your fault, young driver—sit down and wait for the material like everyone else”?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      Is it the same driver each time? Can you ask him to call ahead to confirm estimated time so he’s not wasting time? Like he can run a different errand first (if it exists).

    2. Jay (no, the other one)*

      “Hey, I’m sorry this keeps happening to you. Must be really frustrating. We’ll get you the material as soon as we can.” Can you offer him something to drink? Or a snack?

      I might email the effing idiot and say “Jack was here for about two hours because your request was 10th in the queue and we can’t move it up. For future reference, it takes xyz to process and he doesn’t need to come before that.” Make a macro and send it every.single.time and maybe cc his manager, who might want to know how much staff time is being wasted.

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      “I’m sorry, we already told EFG that there is a queue before his request, so unfortunately you’ll have to wait over there until we’ve completed it.”

      You could take or leave the “I’m sorry” and “unfortunately” – I tend to be more deferential than is required during stuff like this, but especially since it’s not the driver’s fault that their boss is an AH I’d include it for the sake of my own professionalism/the fact that I don’t want to take out my irritation with EFG on them. But adapt for your own style/environment as needed!

    4. lost academic*

      I wouldn’t say anything particularly outside the norm: just keep repeating what you’d tell anyone else, that the submitted request is in the queue, it can be expected to take X time (if there’s a standard amount) or Y time (if it’s dependent on who’s ahead and you can tell), and you’ll let him know when it’s ready. Just grey rock it. Don’t put more energy into it than it deserves. If the driver is being a pest about it, address that behavior.

    6. Kathenus*

      Sounds like you are already doing this, but longer term the most important thing is to hold firm and not fast track his requests because someone feels sorry for the person who has to sit there and wait. Compromising even once will just reinforce entitled field guy to keep doing it. I’d be polite and honest to unfortunate pick-up person, but other than that it gets done whenever it falls in the queue every single time.

    7. Ellen Ripley*

      If it’s feasible for young driver to sit there and wait for the supplies (like it’ll take you an hour to get to their place in the queue and not a day) I would encourage them to sit there and wait until it’s ready. If entitled field guy is really in such a time crunch maybe he’ll learn after a few gos that wasting his employees time is a stupid plan. Or not, but driver can get some paid downtime away from him at least.

      Or you can try to capture this over email. Even if the request from field guy is in person, send a follow up email confirming what time their order will be ready (and CC driver). Then when driver shows up early, email field guy again saying “See below”. Do this a few times and you’ll have a record of field guy wasting his employees time. Maybe worth escalating, or just sat on as a record of his incompetence.

  2. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

    Are there any former librarians in the comments today? If so, what are you doing now?

    I’ve been working as a performance auditor for the last couple of years, but it’s not what I want to do for the rest of my career and nothing else I’ve tried has worked out so far. I’m great at Excel and reasonably good at Access, so I thought maybe data analysis could work, but all the job postings I’ve found require Python, and the main thing I learned from my Python class is that I really hate coding.

    So I’m looking for ideas about what librarians do when they don’t want to be librarians anymore. I know the Library Science degree and skill set can apply to other industries, I’m just having a hard time wrapping my brain around how to match those skills to other jobs. Any examples of what other people did when they left library work would be extremely helpful.

    1. It's so over*

      I’m trying to get a job as a library assistant but, despite dozens of applications and a handful of interviews, I can’t seem to get my foot in the door. I hold a bachelor’s and a master’s from two of the top twenty or so universities in the world and I can’t even get an entry-level job that wouldn’t pay me enough to support myself. It’s so over.

    2. Philanthropy Nancy Drew*

      I am not a former librarian, but I work with multiple former librarians and people with library science degrees in Prospect Research at a nonprofit. Prospect research uses research and some data analytics to surface the best donors to solicit for fundraising. If you like Excel, it’s a lot of sorting through big lists of data to find the hidden gems. We’ll put together the public info we can find on a prospect (career, public assets like home value or publicly held stock, any big gifts they’ve given to other nonprofits), and we’ll give that info to our fundraisers. That way, our fundraisers have an idea of what that person’s interests are, and how much they could possibly give. It’s a great job for curious people, and no need for coding! If you want to learn more, check out the American Prospect Research Association (APRA).

        1. Generic Username*

          Another prospect researcher here. We’d love to have you join our happy band of researchers. There are regional and state chapters of APRA across the US in addition to the full APRA organization – check out the resources and job listings at both the chapter and full org websites.

    3. MsSolo (UK)*

      Government jobs? Most departments (or whatever the US equivalent is) have internal libraries of things like departmental archives, legal libraries, and learning and training libraries. It’s not always obvious that they’re looking for people with library degrees/backgrounds in the job applications, but it’s usually floating around inside Knowledge and Information Management and some of the Analytical professions.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        I worked in a county assessors office for a while, and the best part of that job was doing research on property histories to make sure a title was clear.

    4. rrr*

      I’m an academic librarian who, as of about 3 weeks from now, will be an administrative coordinator in another department at a different higher ed institution. My current work is really public-facing and involves a lot of managing inventory, scheduling meetings, generally understanding the ecosystem of a higher ed institution, etc etc etc so I think it will transfer well but be less demanding.

      Best of luck, I’m excited to read this thread and see what others have to say. Solidarity to the former librarians.

    5. Lego girl*

      I am a database admin for an organization – I mostly help staff get folks signed up in our membership database (we are part of a larger org and so our funding is not really tied to membership numbers and staff do a great many things beyond help people join), and trouble shoot problems with our various computer systems (mostly user error tbh). But I took a meandering path from my days in an academic library to get here.

    6. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m in information governance, which is all about the policies, procedures and processes (and technology) for managing an organization’s information to maximize its value and minimize risk. I work closely with IT, Legal, Compliance, Privacy and Information Security. Most of the time it’s pretty interesting work. ARMA is a good resource to get an overview of IG.

    7. AlabamaAnonymous*

      I’m not a former librarian but I do have a lot of librarian friends! One growing field for data analysis is Institutional Research in higher ed. These jobs can go under a variety of titles–usually some combination of analyst, coordinator, director with IR, data, analytics, planning, or effectiveness. Lots of IR offices are adding staff these days, since these jobs generate the data required for all the federal and state reporting (which is growing by the year). And I can see a librarian background being a strong fit for many of these jobs. There are some drawbacks to working in higher ed, of course, but overall I enjoy my job and find it fulfilling.

      2. Czech Mate*

        ohhh yes, this is a good one. I work in higher ed and interviewed some Institutional Researchers/Institutional Planners for my master’s thesis. Yes, it’s a burgeoning field where I can imagine that a librarian (especially one who has previously worked in higher ed) would be really effective.

    8. Aspiring Square*

      I’m a librarian who just recently accepted a non-librarian position doing a combination of database administration, website maintenance, and user support. Obviously coming from the technical and systems side of libraries is a pre-req for this kind of transition.

    9. Tammy 2*

      I am a records manager. I work in local government now and my work involves a lot of information governance (getting familiar with Microsoft’s Purview suite might be very helpful to you) and also more archives-y stuff with physical records (I’m the liaison between my branch and the state archives).

    10. Czech Mate*

      How much do you not want to be a librarian anymore? My first thought for someone wanting to move out of a traditional librarian role would be to look into being a corporate librarian. I only found out what that is recently and I’m so fascinated by it.

      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        The primary reason I left the field is that I was working in public libraries at the time and upper management was not adequately protecting staff from abusive customers. We had someone block the library exit for nearly an hour shouting threats, we called 911 but the police didn’t come, and the library director refused to permanently ban the customer. He only received a one month suspension. It’s one example of many, unfortunately, and it’s something I’ve heard from colleagues nationwide, so I didn’t feel like just changing to another library would solve the problem. I love the work tasks of being a librarian, and if I could do it in a setting where I’d be safe, I’d go back.

        I don’t know a lot about corporate librarianship, I don’t know why that never occurred to me, thank you for bringing it up!

        1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

          I never worked in public libraries, but I spent many years in a research library that was part of a large historical society. It was interesting and fun, assisting academic and popular historians, authors, staff from historical sites, publishers, filmmakers, genealogists who knew what they were doing, and of course our own staff for exhibit research. All visitors had to sign in, and be there to do research. it was closed stacks, so no aimless wanderers.

    11. Taketombo*

      When I worked for a major university and now that I work for the state I’ve had librarian co-workers in Asset Management / Capital Assets.

      As I understand it, there’s a lot of cataloging and storing all the documents (plans, operating manuals, etc.) relating to your buildings, roads, subways, etc. that need to be filed and ex librarians are a good fit.

      The kinds of places with these jobs are probably state agencies, major universities, hospital complexes, and large commercial or residential real estate holders (think Simon Malls) or property management corps. Although smaller places might have an opening, it’s probably a one or two person shop so the stakes are higher if you’re learning in the job.

    12. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      SLA was my main library association as I started a special librarian and found the science-specific divisions more active and relevant even when I switched to academia. I met a lot of MLS people without librarian in their job title (and some actively eschewed it as they felt it would lower their salary). Lots of analysts (Business Analyst, Data Analyst, IP Analyst), researchers (Market Research, M&A Researchers, Product Researcher) and managers (Knowledge Management, Document Management, Digital Assets Manager).

    13. HigherEd*

      Add Tableau or PowerBI to your skill set if you can do it cheaply. Analytics seems to be moving away from Excel and more into that “storytelling” kind of software.

      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        how do those compare workflow wise with Excel and Access? And is there a way to learn without buying the software? I’ve taken a lot of classes already on stuff that’s turned out not to be right for me, I can’t keep spending money on stuff that I might not even need.

        1. Alanis*

          Check out the Tableau websites for User Groups and community forums. Also have a look on YouTube for beginner videos to see if it is something you’d like. There is a public instance so you can take some public data and play around with it to make and publish dashboards.

    14. anon ex-librarian*

      I was a software developer for ~10 years after leaving librarianship (so no help to you if you hate coding!) and I’m currently applying to nursing school.

    15. Library vendor*

      I work for a library vendor and we have a lot of former librarians on staff. A library background is useful for many roles in my company: content (metadata/cataloguing or selection of content to include in collections or databases), sales, collection development consulting (working with customers on collection strategies), trainers, tech support.
      Might be worth looking into if you would like to stay library-adjacent without working in a library.

    16. I once was*

      Look at museum jobs – I transitioned from libraries to the registration department of an art museum just recently, and there would be similar roles in large museums (small ones you’re more likely to need other museum skills, like curation and public programming).

    17. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A friend went into corporate records management. From my intended archive role, I took a convoluted path to technical writing. Obvious need for research and information presentation skills, and a sometimes overwhelming amount of files management.

    18. Fluff*

      Knowledge management (similar to what others mentioned). So many places need a solid knowledge / information management program. In reality many document management programs are done poorly and are difficult to access by the very people who need said info / knowledge. What happened the last time you looked for a policy with your company (not libraries)? Your search on the intranet found every version of that policy from when the first dos computer fired up. But you did not find the version which is valid in 2024. So so common. I’m looking at you – three ginormous well known hospital systems.

      Usability – can your customers access and use and understand? How to make the search work for regular folks who have no idea how to search or digest the info that comes up. I sometimes sneak to the library to have a buddy look at a user interface because they get it.

      Safety and legal – librarians are on the forefront here -> hellopolitics criminalizing the keepers of the lore. Before that stuff though, it will still a lot of legal stuff . You understand open access yet keep everyone safe (open access and a kid is cruising the web), adult and kid safety, etc. Privacy, what can be shared, limited access, etc.

      Instructional design?

      I find that librarians are like the observers of a small real life experiment and all of society comes into the libraries – much more diverse than in any store. Where do you see a MAGA person reserving a study room, someone unhoused looking at a print magazine, a migrant searching the web for jobs, the parent with kids searching summer reading, the caretaker with their charge, a person struggling with addition, a happy kid imagining they are a wizard, a story time program, teenagers hanging after school, the retirees looking for travel books, a scared person reading up on cancer all in the same place doing their thing? The Library. Talk about practicing skills in so many domains.

  3. Somehow I Manage*

    Just want to add a highlight from this week. I had a conversation with a friend about a challenge they were having at work, and I cited this site and Alison specifically when offering an idea and support. It is great to come here, learn from everyone, and be able to put it into practice in real life. Thanks!

    1. Green Goose*

      I still remember the day my awesome former coworker told me about AAM, she mentioned it over lunch about eight years ago and I’ve probably read every entry since then.

  4. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I’m looking for effective ways to manage and delegate communication tasks, particularly in a library or academic setting.

    As the chair of our communications committee, I’m trying to develop a streamlined, sustainable communication strategy that will make everyone’s live easier as team members come and go. Currently, I spend a lot of time sending out emails requesting volunteers for various tasks like newsletters, flyers, signage, blog posts, and email blasts to the campus community (and occasionally the public). Unfortunately, I rarely get responses, which leaves me handling most of the work myself. I’m hesitant to introduce tools like Trello because, as a peer to the other committee members, I doubt I’ll be able to get everyone on board with consistently using a new platform. Any ideas on how to get started?

    1. H*

      have you asked the same questions to your staff/peers “what would make your life easier for assigning tasks” “are there any systems you like or dislike for tracking these tasks?” or asking them if any of the projects you have mentioned above are of interest to them and their skills and career goals? Another thought is making sure all past materials and communications are saved and templates are available so these tasks aren’t as daunting for anyone who does volunteer

    2. Tio*

      Do you have the authority to assign these tasks if needed, or are they only assigned out if you receive volunteers? I’m not clear on that bit

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think your issue is asking people to volunteer and hoping they’ll do it. My experience with committees is that most people still won’t volunteer for things, so they need to be assigned. It shouldn’t be guesswork every time you need to produce a communications piece. Adding Trello to the mix is probably just going to end up with unclaimed cards the way you have unclaimed tasks via email already, only now with an extra barrier to entry of them having to deal with Trello.

      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, folks generally won’t volunteer unless the task seems really interesting and the bigger the list you send it to, less likely it will happen. Can you rotate through people on the list, basically make the list, send to first person “Hey #1, please write newsletter and send to review for me by X date… if you aren’t able to do this, please reply by Y and I’ll ask the next volunteer.” I’d also let everyone know you are going to try something new to spread the load amongst everyone. You could still ask for volunteers first if you want and give a deadline to volunteer, if you don’t get one, assign task.

    4. carrot cake*

      In an ideal world, committee members’ supervisors should be driving their direct reports’ participation, not the committee Chair, who likely has zero authority. I do this myself as a manager, i.e. I ask questions about committee work as part of the 1:1s with my team; once I did pull someone off a committee because they were slacking off. That also sent the message to my team that they can’t just volunteer for committee work and not produce. Doesn’t work that way, in my view.

      It’s not micro-managing. It’s making sure tasks are completed in a timely manner, whether routine work or committee work. Please don’t sign up to participate and then slack off. Don’t be an ass like that.

    5. Hillary*

      It’s not about the tool, it’s about how you’re asking. Email stinks for this because it’s easy to ignore – internally everyone can say someone else will do it.

      Make a list of the tasks, talk through them in a meeting (ideally in person) and jointly agree on who owns what when. Revisit periodically to add new people and keep the load balanced.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      Here’s how I handled our library display and social media committee when I was the head of it- First off, I worked out a calendar. I decided how much content needed to be created, what could be recycled (graduation, homecoming, annual campus events). Next up, I asked which committee members wanted to be responsible for which tasks at a meeting where tasks were assigned. Then as a team we agreed to deadlines and I followed up. (BTW: I entered the meeting with deadlines in mind, but I was open to people saying if things wouldn’t work for them.) Anything that happened spontaneously or unexpectedly, I handled, but 90% of our communication schedule was pretty well documented.

      For our newsletter, one staff person was responsible for putting it together, but everyone was responsible for writing content. Honestly, when we had someone who constantly dropped the ball, missed deadlines, and was incapable to contributing, I went their boss and talked to them about it.

      Work that belongs to no one simply doesn’t get done and no tool is going to fix people not feeling responsible for the work.

    7. Hyaline*

      You’re 100% right that getting academics to adopt a new tool is…difficult. I would avoid it whenever possible–I’m watching a couple efforts in my own department flounder partially because someone tried this.

      I feel like things like newsletters, blogs, and other regularly produced communications work better when they’re part of someone’s regular workflow. Is it possible to assign this kind of work on a semesterly or yearly basis? Then you’re not asking for volunteers every time–Tim knows he’s on the hook for newsletters until May, and Joy is handling blog posts, and etc.? You can make it clear that if they’re working with students/student workers or others they can assign the work elsewhere, but they’re on the hook for getting it done and getting it out? If it’s an issue with writing content, can the deal be “your project/info/event/baby of any kind, you submit to the newsletter or too bad so sad it’s not included?” If you need regular non-time-sensitive content, people can be tasked with submitting at least one article/post/whatever per month/semester/year to a point person (or Teams folder but hahahahaha my department won’t use Teams).

      Can you simply assign tasks to people or are you stuck waiting for volunteers? If the latter, can you department chair or another figure arm-wring a little for you?

    8. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      I wonder if it would be helpful to have a “track” for volunteers? Almost like CEUs or video game points that they could work toward.

      Like, an experienced communications volunteer would have experience in social media posts, flyers, signage, emails, and etc. You’d make those into a list with check boxes. People need 5 social media posts, 1 flyer design, 2 blast emails, and one from a miscellaneous category, whatever, to make them reach the first, second, and third levels of experience. They can tick off boxes as they go.

      So you could be like Hey Wakeen, you only need one more email blast to get to level 1, would you like to take this next email blast? If so I need to know by Saturday and will need the draft by Wednesday, if not let me know and I’ll ask the next person.

      Factors include how much time you have to do such a thing and how frequently people change out.

  5. H*

    question
    …is it odd that a peer of mine was promoted to be our immediate boss almost 5 months ago (they are not very bright btw but I digress) and I and my whole team are still having 1:1s with our now grand boss instead of her/she hasn’t established 1:1s with us yet…I understand the role is new but she was an internal recruit from our team and not an outside hire and she did all of our midyear evals after talking with all of us for about 30 mins…so I guess we had 1 1:1 with her but really nothing else and when I have 1:1s with my grand boss she says she often wants to defer to our now immediate supervisor for any questions, concerns to respect protocol. I am just finding this a super strange transition. I also find this person quite concrete in her thinking anyway but yeah it has been bothering me.

    1. Archi-detect*

      after 5 months? that isn’t that unusual to me- new managers especially first time managers take a little while to get spun up. I would find it really odd if it was still that way after 2 years though.

      1. H*

        how much time is normal. again she was our peer prior so she isn’t new to the agency or dept and she claims to have had past management exp…

        1. Somehow I Manage*

          I think 5 months is long enough, given that it was an internal hire. I’m a little confused about the timing of the 1:1 meetings, though. How often are you expecting them? How often have you had them in the past? How often are you having them with your grand boss? Who has initiated these in the past? Just kind of curious to see how far off the new manager is from what expectations have been.

          In your next conversation with your grandboss, if there’s deference given to your new manager, you might flag the fact that your new manager isn’t setting these meetings, or that you’ve only had one 1:1 with her. Maybe there are new expectations that have been set that you’ve not been made aware of. Or it may be that your grandboss things everything is going swimmingly and your team doesn’t.

          1. H*

            so with our grand boss (when she was our immediate boss) expectation from her was once a week for 30 minutes which I think is excessive at this point but my new boss who was my peer also isn’t a timely responder to emails, etc so I feel like having a check in on the calendar would be a way to get her attention to things when she responds to emails at a glacial pace

            2. HonorBox*

              I think I’d ask if you can put something recurring on the calendar. And also I’ll double down on the suggestion to mention something to the grandboss, especially when they’re trying to “chain of command” you. If you’re not getting timely responses to things you need, whether email or in person, then grandboss should know that.

    2. SS*

      Yes, I think that’s odd. When I was promoted in the same fashion (became supervisor of my former peers), I began 1:1s with my team immediately and they stopped having 1:1s with their grand boss unless needed for a specific reason. I would bring it up directly with grand boss, if I were you!

      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        That’s what I would do. At the next 1-1 with the grandboss, I’d just ask “when can we expect to start having 1-1 meetings with Jane?” And see what she says.

        1. S in InterMountainWest*

          or (possible protocol breach) invite the immediate boss to 1:1 with grand boss – it sucks to manage up. Within a month or, ideally less, new boss should have set up own 1:1s. It sounds like 1. lack of independence 2. grand boss not pushing new boss to actually start leading. GOOD LUCK

    3. Nonny*

      When grand boss defers to new boss, do they indicate they will ask the question and get back to you or do they tell you to ask new boss?

      1. H*

        a bit of both…like there were a few times where she was like “email sara and tell her we discussed xyz and I said ABC so she knows I am already in agreement” or whatnot…I work in a large bureaucracy…

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          In your post you said she wants to defer to the new boss but continuing to have 1/1s with you isn’t doing that. This gives me a little vibe of “we needed someone to be a manager for a group this size because that’s the usual set-up HR wants us to have but I actually want to run it”. Is that a possibility? In my large public agency people are only supposed to have a certain number of direct reports and a whole team would be a lot to add to someone’s direct line of supervision. Could be that you need to have a manager to match the guidelines for structure but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re empowered to actually manage, depending on grandboss.

    4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Have you asked your new boss, with the Alison approach of cheerfully assuming “of course you will want to have one one ones with the staff”? Like, “Hey, boss, how often do you want to have one on ones? Old Boss and I did it [every week on Tuesday]. How would you like me to schedule those?”

      I see people are saying raise it with the grand-boss but I wouldn’t go over your boss’s head as the first step.

  6. Oak and Willow*

    I am burned out in my current role as a mid level manager at my org. I recognize I need to find a job elsewhere.

    In my current role I am spearheading a new program that is scheduled to roll out in October and I’ve been reluctant and apathetic to set aside time to work on it. I know this isn’t healthy for me or the organization.

    In my time off I’ve looked for positions but I’m too daunted to apply.

    I’m just so exhausted and too unmotivated to care about work or an impending job search.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation? How can I stay motivated to push through this initiative as well as have motivation/energy to job search?

    1. MsM*

      Small but achievable goals. Find one listing that seems like it would be a really good fit and make it your goal to apply in the next few days, or research a field you’re thinking about transitioning into and try to set up one informational interview. Pick one task or conversation that will get you past the project block and focus on that before worrying about everything else, or find something you can do before clearing that roadblock that might motivate you to tackle the next thing. And if you really just need to rest, don’t feel bad about dedicating the free time you have to that.

      1. I Super Believe In You, Tad Cooper*

        Seconded. Chunking big tasks into much smaller ones has been huge during periods where I had no motivation to work on anything. Making checklists with all these tasks can help too; physically checking tasks off that list provides a good sense of making progress.

        Another thing that has helped me is, at the beginning of the work week, sitting down and writing down the list of things you want to get done that week—then assigning each task to a specific day. That way it doesn’t feel like everything on your plate has to be done right away—you have a smaller, more manageable number of tasks for each day, which also helps foster a sense of progress and manageability.

      2. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        Agreed. You eat the elephant one bite at a time.

        Write a job searching to-do list, just like you’d do for a work task, but then look at each task on the list and break it down into a series of smaller steps. Yes, it will make the list longer, but I find that it’s easier to tackle a list like that when each item is really small and easy to accomplish.

        Also, give yourself rewards along the way to keep it from feeling like drudgery. You met your goal of applying to one job this week? Great! Take yourself to a movie or buy a new video game or bath bomb or whatever your thing is to celebrate.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, this. Also the book- The Anti-Planner by Dani Donovan is super helpful, even if you don’t have ADHD (I don’t and I use it all the time.)

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Look up the Captain Awkward post #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed. Not to say you are depressed, but there are a lot of good tips in that post that might be helpful to you.

      In my time off I’ve looked for positions but I’m too daunted to apply.

      Can you break job-searching up into small steps that seem less daunting? For example, maybe take it one day at a time.

      Day 1: Identify job posting that looks reasonably interesting and a good match for your skills/experience
      Day 2: Go over your resume. Take out bullet points that don’t strengthen your candidacy for that particular job, add in bullet points of things that will strengthen your candidacy. Check for typos.
      Day 3: Draft up a cover letter for the position [if applicable for your industry].
      Day 4: Review/edit cover letter for the position.
      Day 5: Apply for the position (create an account with the company’s website, fill out tedious application, upload resume and cover letter, etc.).

      You can change up the order of the steps or break them down even smaller until you find something that feels do-able instead of daunting.

      1. Aequoria*

        I have been in a similar situation, and what really helped (if you have the ability) was to dedicate some PTO to job hunting, and attach it to a vacation. It doesnt even need to be long, even a couple of days, just to be somewhere outside your home/work. In my case, I went to visit a friend, spent a couple hours each morning on job hunting/applications, and then did fun things in the afternoon and evening. Stepping outside my usual job and life commitments and attaching the work of job hunting to a daily reward made the task much more manageable. I landed a couple of offers from those efforts and had a new job within a month.

    3. Nicosloanica*

      Is there any chance you might do some freelancing in the time between leaving this job and starting your job search? (You can decide if it’s worth it for you push through to the October event and then leave or not). Or can you live on savings? Can you look into taking some significant (more than two weeks) paid, partially paid, or unpaid leave for your mental health, perhaps after the launch in October? Under similar circumstances, I freelanced for a year and then re-entered the job market with a much better attitude. I was too burned out to interview well so I was not going to be successful at getting a new job while still employed, unfortunately.

    4. Alex*

      Is it possible for you to put off job searching until this project is rolled out? What are other things you could take off your plate until the project is finished, both in your personal and professional life? I do think chunking up things into smaller tasks helps, as other people have mentioned, but also setting concrete timelines can really help me feel more motivated.
      Part of the issue may be that your brain is saying “This is how things are going to be forever,” when that isn’t really true.

      Treating this as a sprint and not a marathon may mean doing things you wouldn’t normally do, like scheduling a cleaning service or meal prep service for X number of weeks, more frequent leisure activities during this time, and anything else you can think of to support your needs and your mental and physical health will help.

    6. Green Goose*

      I feel like I was in this position from about 2021-2023. I was running a program at my old job and it just became really untenable but I was so burned out and had two kids in 2020 and 2022 so it delayed me really throwing myself into my job search. When my second maternity leave was ending in early 2023 I started upping my job search. I was probably applying to 1 job a month, which is not a lot but I was so tired and burned out. And during my busy season I didn’t have the bandwidth.
      The best advice I got was from another job seeker who recommended using ChatGPT for my resume and cover letter. The first job I did that with it saved me probably about 3-4 hours of time. I usually agonize over my resume and cover letter. ChatGPT put together a really good draft for me and then I just edited for 30 minutes. I ended up getting a job offer and accepting it.
      What made me feel good? I would find a job that sounded good and put the JD into ChatGPT and then put my resume (with name removed) in and ask ChatGPT “list why I would be a good fit for this role” and it spit out a great explanation why my skills matched the JD. It was a good ego boost.
      I’ve been at my new job for over six months now. It’s not perfect at all, but I’m much less burnt out and apathetic. I actually took a step down in title but a step up in pay and that is working for me and my family at this time.

    7. Kiki Is The Most*

      Ugh. I’ve done this. Looking down the project timeline and still had 8 MONTHS until ‘big project’ was done was awful, depressing, and exhausting but I couldn’t quit right away.
      I decided that I was resigning right after the project (did NOT tell work at that time though). When I made this decision (and shared it with my closest non-work supportive friends and family), it felt like a weight had been lifted off of me. I followed the advice of tackling smaller tasks, took personal days when needed, and worked on the job search in small amounts of tasks/time, too. The shift in my attitude was positive because I felt that the job and the job search would be manageable and I had a ‘due date’.
      Luckily, I did not have to extend my time at the burned out position.
      Wishing you much success!

  7. New Novelist*

    A question with a related story. What do you do when your coworker doesn’t show up and no one can get in touch with her? I’m wondering if I was a little overly alarmist here.

    I’m friendly with my coworker, Jane, and have spent time with her outside of work before. It was supposed to be just the two of us in the office today, but she never showed up. She usually texts me if she’s running late, but I wasn’t able to get ahold of her when I texted then called to see if she’s okay. There’s a bad storm going on in our area, so I was worried. After an hour, I got ahold of my boss to let him know what was going on, and he called her emergency contact, which was her mom.

    Mom was very grateful for the call. She and Jane share GPS locations and Mom saw that Jane had left the house then stopped after a few miles. She was going to check on Jane and let Boss know what she found. By now we were all super worried!

    Fortunately, it turned out that trees were down on the road so that Jane had to go home. She was without power, wifi, and cell service, but was perfectly okay!

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I think you played it roughly right. Glad to hear Jane’s alright, but condolences that most of the modern comforts of home are offline.

    2. Archi-detect*

      Nah, raising it to your supervisor makes sense especially if you are worried they are missing and it has been at least half an hour; she was stuck by trees, but could have been under one of them without cell service so that really shows to me you made the right call.

    3. Observer*

      I think that you handled this perfectly.

      You had a good reason to worry, and you contacted her emergency contact. I’d certainly want someone to do that for me if I kind of fell off the map.

    4. Somehow I Manage*

      I think what you did is just fine. Given Jane’s history of texting if she’s running late and not answering/texting back, getting in contact with others is a safe bet.

    5. different seudonym*

      Ask Jane, not us, and then take her answer to heart! It’s dependent on both context and personalities, so there is no one answer. Some people would accept your concern as caring, while others would find it overbearing, and there’s no way to predict.

    6. Dovasary Balitang*

      If it’s uncharacteristic for Jane, I don’t think you overstepped. Something legitimately bad could have happened. Although someone smarter than me could probably answer this: how could Mom see Jane’s GPS location if Jane had no cell service?

      1. New Novelist*

        It was connected when she first left her house and then disconnected when she lost cell service – her mom could see up until that point

      2. Zephy*

        Maybe her last recorded location before she lost service? I don’t use apps like that so I don’t know exactly what they show.

    7. Rage*

      I don’t think it’s particularly alarmist. That’s what emergency contacts are for.

      We had a situation a few year’s back where an employee – who is ALWAYS punctual – didn’t show up for work and wasn’t responding to phone calls or texts.

      Her boss decided to drive over to her house. I suggested that somebody go with him…just in case. Fortunately, in this case, she merely overslept and didn’t hear her alarm. She was mortified.

      Decades ago, some colleagues of mine were not so lucky. An employee did not come in, on of the other staff went over to her house and found her deceased (stroke). Very sad, but that’s also why I suggested a second person go along later.

      1. New Novelist*

        My boss told a similar story which is why he was quick to act. He said if her mom hadn’t picked up, he would have asked someone to go to her house and check. I think that would have been a little much but since she’s invited me over before, I don’t think she would have been particularly upset if I had shown up.

      2. Craig*

        we had a somewhat happier one with an older gentlemen who lived alone. On going to investigate he was unconscious on the floor, so we called 999 God knows how long he could have been left if we hadn’t checked. he was released from hospital a couple of weeks later and made a good recovery.

    8. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t know that I would have done this after only an hour, but I think your general instinct was correct. I worked with someone years ago who didn’t show up for work one day and after contacting the emergency contact, it turns out the coworker had died in their sleep.

      1. TheBunny*

        I think the storm in the area did add (correctly it seems) to the urgency here. In normal situations, an hour might be extreme but in “storm strong enough to knock down trees” situations, acting quickly could be a great thing

      2. Goody*

        Agreeing with The Bunny. Under normal circumstances I’d be much more hesitant to act, but the storm definitely alters the calculus.

        Once things settle down, New Novelist, talk to Jane. Apologize if she felt you overstepped, but I suspect she’ll be grateful that you cared enough to check.

    9. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Sounds like you handled it perfectly. You knew Jane was scheduled to work and Jane’s typical behavior and that her silence was unusual. This was compounded by bad storms in the area. You contacted your boss and your boss decided it made sense to contact the emergency contact. You all did your best with the info you had and it wasn’t alarmist.

    10. Space Cadet*

      A coworker of mine no call/ no showed one day. Our manager couldn’t reach her at home, so she called her emergency contact, who found her deceased in bed.

      Having experienced that, no it is not alarmist to check in if someone isn’t where they’re supposed to be.

      1. ampersand*

        Same here, which is why I don’t think it’s alarmist. I had two similar situations at a prior job, one where a person who didn’t show up and couldn’t be reached was found dead, and another where the person was experiencing some type of mental crisis that required help (which they thankfully received). Better safe than sorry!

        1. Grilledcheeser*

          My brother was one of these. We are forever grateful that his employer decided to check up on their new employee when he no-showed after a week of work. The boss got the apartment manager to check on him in person. They found him unconscious & called 911. We were able to have a few months with him before he died (inoperable tumor) because they persevered that day.

          1. Dee*

            Wow not every employer would do that after only a week – it’d be easy to assume an employee just left

    11. I strive to Excel*

      IMO you made the right call.

      1. A coworker with a previously set pattern broke that pattern in an unusual way (late, without the normal text of “I’m going to be late”).

      2. Your initial attempts to contact got you no response.

      3. There were outside factors that would give a probable cause as to something potentially more serious occurring (a big storm), and give a good reason as to why waiting 24 hours might be a bad idea.

      If you had called 911 15 minutes after Jane’s no-call no-show that would have been different but as it is your actions seem pretty reasonable to me!

    12. Kesnit*

      You did the right thing.

      We had storms in our area yesterday. Trying to get home was a chore because of road closures – and I had planned ahead to use a different route home because I expected my main route to be closed.

      Trees fall. Roads get flooded. It’s better that someone checked on her, rather than her being crushed under a fallen tree. (Which happened to a former coworker of mine. A tree fell on the car she was traveling in. Her fiancee – who was driving – was only slightly hurt. The tree landed on top of where my coworker was sitting and came very close to paralyzing her.)

    13. Maggie*

      No that’s perfect and exactly what I’d have done. It’s ok to check on our fellow humans like that!

    14. CubeFarmer*

      We had one colleague quit by ghosting us. He simply stopped showing up one day!

      His supervisor hesitated about reaching out to his emergency contact when the supervisor couldn’t reach the employee directly after numerous attempts. The supervisor finally reached to the employee’s emergency contact and found out that the employee was safe and his whereabouts were known by someone close to him. Fine. We still fired him.

      I don’t think you overreacted at all! If I don’t show up where I’m supposed to be, and that behavior is unusual for me, I want someone to check in.

    15. Mad Scientist*

      As someone who was impacted by the storms this past week, thanks for doing this! I was so worried that people would think I was flaky for not showing up to work / logging on virtually when I was actually dealing with storm damage and a power outage. I’m glad to know that your first instinct was to be concerned for your coworker’s safety rather than assuming they were just being unreliable!

    16. Sparkles McFadden*

      You did the right thing in the right way.

      I had a very reliable direct report who didn’t show for work after a long weekend. I checked everything I could and then called his emergency contact. The emergency contact, the employee’s spouse, was out of the country on a work trip. I called the police for a wellness check and the employee had had a massive heart attack over the weekend. The spouse was grateful that we had cared enough to check, even if nothing could have been done.

      From the other side: I got stuck on the way to work during a massive storm. My workplace called my emergency contact, who came out in the storm to find me. I was immeasurably grateful!

    17. LingNerd*

      Given the context (behavior outside of her usual pattern, plus a big storm) I think you reacted with the appropriate level of concern. I think if I were in this situation where I was unreachable but fine, I wouldn’t feel like it was an overstep for my coworkers to call my emergency contact to get ahold of me. Especially if it was a “hey are you okay, want to make sure nothing bad happened!” and not a “where are you and why aren’t you at work?”

      1. Trekker*

        I had a recent incident at work (miscommunication about the schedule) where I didn’t show up as expected and I am very reliable. My supervisor called my emergency contact, who sent another friend to check on me as well as calling the non-emergency police number. I was fine and not far from work. I was glad they took action to make sure I was okay!

    18. AnonStillInPain*

      I’d like to chime in that anyone who lives alone should have a specifically planned/scheduled daily “wellness-check/call-in” with another person!
      There are too many stories of seniors who are found deceased several days after a stroke or heart attack where they might have survived if found earlier.

      My mom’s person cancelled on her and she hadn’t restarted with someone else, when she had a fall in the middle of the night. Three weeks later, after the hospital couldn’t find anything wrong with her, and she’d had 2 weeks of rehab and been released, she had a stroke during the night and it wasn’t until noon that I discovered her. She lived another year, but I still have some anger with her designated caller for cancelling on her, because I don’t know if her quality of life for her final year might have been better if she’d been found earlier.

  8. Kelly Anne*

    Has anyone been in a similar situation like this week’s letter about one of their coworkers cheating on their coworker fiancé with someone in management, where the higher up person was untouchable? Did they eventually get their comeuppance?

    1. BadDay*

      I was in a very similar situation. No one on our team ended up saying anything at my job, but the higher up engaging in something as messy, unprofessional, and exploitative as this meant they were messy, unprofessional, and exploitative in a lot of other ways, unsurprisingly, and he ended up being fired for other reasons.

    2. Burned Out Banker*

      I had this happen once! The lower person got pushed out by upper management because they didn’t want a lawsuit. The manager was eventually fired for something totally unrelated.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Gotta love their logic there, prevent a lawsuit by giving the person even more evidence for their lawsuit!

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Not me, but a friend had this happen at her job. Manager was fired because he definitely should have known better. Underling was disciplined and basically managed out more gently. Underling’s work was good so giving her a good work reference wasn’t hard, and Friend said she thought Underling learned her lesson re: Fooling around at work. (I suspect this was a situation where a middle-aged manager with a big personality and a lot of professional clout was taking advantage of a very young and sort of starstruck new employee, too.) This was a larger, well-established nonprofit.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      When I was working for the type of company where people had been around for decades, there was a senior person who was particularly nasty. Think aggressive, hostile and a bully etc. Anyway, the story was that about twenty years previously he was the boss of a married couple and he had began an affair with the wife. As you’d expect, when the husband found out he was a shell of a person, I don’t think he could afford to quit right away either. Apparently it did quite a number on his mental health, and he quit after a couple of panic attacks etc. The wife quit about a year later, when the relationship fizzled out and he started retaliation against her. Anyway, he was clearly never a very nice guy but apparently his behaviour towards colleagues got worse when the affair came to light; not sure if he was reacting to shame or disdain, but apparently he got a little bit worse every year. By the time I knew him he was a disaster. Obviously the timeline shows you that he never really experienced direct consequences, but when the business was doing particularly poorly he was sacked (you can’t sack at will in the UK, so it was more like no-notice redundancy which is similar to being laid off) and perp walked out. Which was odd, as this isn’t how redundancy had ever been handled.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      One of the department’s senior leaders was having an affair with a colleague not in their direct reporting line. They got caught canoodling after hours in a conference room by Security. Both were fired immediately. Learning of their relationship made some other things make sense, like why the junior colleague was traveling with the the senior colleague and being brought on projects/issues where their role was not needed/no one knew why they were there.

    6. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

      He was married with kids, she was young and single. When she became pregnant he wrangled an out of province transfer and left with his family. She remained behind with nothing but the baby. Not fair but as far I know, he faced no career backlash.

    7. I don't work in this van*

      I came in late to the party, but I worked at a place where it was well known that a middle-level manager’s marriage ended because she was sleeping with her boss (I don’t remember if it was what ended his marriage, too, or if he was divorced for unrelated reasons), and everyone at work knew about it while it was happening. Weirdly, their relationship also ended, but they kept working productively together for… over a decade? (Mid-level manager was married/engaged several more times while I worked there, and also apparently fooling around with the super grand boss for a while).

    8. Anonymoose*

      Yes, twice, and it made the national news both times:
      https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/retired-general-jonathan-vance-concedes-to-relationship-subordinate-while-cds-1.6423987
      https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ex-canadian-forces-commander-daniel-m%C3%A9nard-loses-rank-1.1108899

      I worked with both of them and it was widely known about Menard, whereas Vance was a bit more discreet. Still, I heard about him in late 2015 and it took five years for it to be made public.

      1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

        The ex-mayor of Toronto resigned because of an affair with a staffer. I always wonder if it was worth it when you’re exposed and become the lead story on the national news.

    10. AnonAugust*

      It happened at a previous job. In this case it was the manager who was married. They were found out and not allowed to interact at work anymore (separate reporting structure was enacted.) It was a scandal known by only a small group of people (coworkers and a few higher ups.) The relationship fell apart almost immediately upon being found out, and they both moved on within a year or two. Ultimately, both seem to have done well in their careers so far.

    12. Sparkles McFadden*

      We had a situation where two (married to other people) managers were seeing each other. They thought they were being discreet but…they really weren’t. The guy’s wife worked elsewhere in the company. The woman’s was divorced. They’d travel to her house together on specific nights. A few coworkers took the same bus. The female manager’s stop was the second stop, so several of the coworkers would make a point of talking to the male manager (the secret couple didn’t sit together) who could not get off the bus when he wanted and would end up riding to the end of the route where he’d have to wait for the return bus. The coworkers took turns doing this (“Hey! Since when are you on this bus line?”) just to drive the managers crazy. A couple of times, someone would ride back in the other direction too. (“Oops! I forgot I’m meeting my wife two towns over! Why are you riding back this way?”) We’d also come up with ways to delay one or the other of them when they were trying to leave together. It was childish but really satisfying. They were terrible people.

      They eventually had a screaming match at work in full view of all of us and upper management. They both “moved on to other opportunities” right after that and, no surprise, his wife divorced him.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        That reminds me of when I worked retail and after another branch was broken into, we got security guards from Limerick city (no idea why from Limerick, the shop I worked in was about an hour from Limerick, but for some reason our company seemed to have contracte with a security company in Limerick). This is relevant because one of the security guards was in a relationship but started dating girls while working in our branch, presumably assuming it was far enough from Limerick that his “steady” wouldn’t find out.

        One evening when he was going to meet one of those girls, our manager kept calling him back to do “just one more thing,” just because she disapproved of him cheating on his girlfriend and wanted to make it difficult for him.

    13. Bruce*

      Back in the 80s I was adjacent to several work affairs, but this one tops any that I witnessed. I knew several affair couples, but they were not cheating on spouses or fiances that worked in the same office!

      1. Bruce*

        The creepiest one was a VP and his younger staff member, they were both good at what they did but carried on a long affair. One time during a company shut down I encountered him in Reno with his wife and family, that was weird! I moved to another company and later she did too… I made a point to never ever EVER breath a word about the back story. Even so I felt she was wary of me and anyone from the old company, but I never heard any gossip at the new place so I felt like she managed to bury the story. Have not encountered her in decades and I hope she has achieved what she showed the skills to achieve.

    14. Gumby*

      I feel like it’s not nearly as uncommon of a situation as one would hope. For example, the elected official who had an affair with his secretary. Said secretary was married to a high-up staffer. Both secretary and staffer quit (secretary before word got out IIRC but staffer afterwards). As for comeuppance? Well, he’s moved from mayor of a city to governor of the whole state. So. No.

      That’s just in my state. I’m sure there are legions of examples across the country and it depresses me.

    15. allathian*

      Yeah, two coworkers were having an affair and the man was married, and his wife also worked for us. They were discreet about it at work, no PDAs, etc. They were caught when they went on a work trip together, and the man’s wife processed their expenses for the same hotel room in accounts payable. The wife was a work friend and that’s how I know what happened, although I lost touch with her when she moved on.

      The wife divorced him and switched jobs a bit later, and so did the affair partner. The cheating man is still with us but I don’t know if the relationship continues or not.

      These people weren’t in the same chain of command and cheating isn’t a crime, even if I find it morally reprehensible, so there were no career consequences for any of them. Unless you count the wife who didn’t want to work for the same employer as her ex, but she wasn’t pushed out by our employer.

    16. AnnonyMe*

      I’m a little late with this, but I did have a situation like this. About 12 years ago, I worked at a large company and our division was headed by a guy from Austria (Dan – not his real name). Dan was not well-liked. After I was there for a couple of years, a woman (I’ll call her Sandy) was hired to ostensibly be assistant director to my direct boss. However, my boss did not hire her – he had passed on her during the interview process because she was clearly not qualified for the position – but Dan hired her anyway. (I have a whole sordid history with this woman when we worked at a different company and I was her manager, but I’ll tell that story some other time.) Sandy was very attractive – real Victoria’s Secret model material. Dan was married with 3 children. I’m sure you can see where this is headed.

      Sandy made no effort at all to actually do her job. She just palled around with Dan and tried to lord it over everyone, even though she had no direct reports. It became very clear that they were having an affair. O, she was married too. Dan would insist that Sandy had to come with him on long business trips, even though she had no role in these meetings.

      After about 8 months, Dan’s wife found out. Suddenly it was announced that Dan was returning to Austria for “family reasons” – his wife said they either went back to their home country or she was filing for divorce – and Sandy was asked to resign about 3 weeks later.

      Dan eventually came back to America with his family. Sandy had ruined her reputation to the point where she had to change her last name to her husband’s because her reputation was so widely known. This was not the first time she had had an affair with a grand boss level person. She did the same thing when we worked together a few years before this.

  9. Sunshine*

    Would be grateful for advice for anyone who has worked in a regulatory compliance role before.

    We have a relatively new compliance department in our SME (100 employees) which I lead (middle manager in the org hierarchy). We are trying to build a strong culture of compliance but despite senior leadership (I report directly to them) being on board with the messaging, we are struggling to deliver results.

    How have you built strong compliance cultures in your offices? Our employees are split pretty much 50/50 between those working in administrative and operational support functions and those with billable hours targets.

    1. Observer*

      I think that there are 3 key pieces to this:

      1. Make sure that you understand what each department is doing and how, and why they are doing that. Get information from everyone involved.

      2. Make sure that you understand what the rules actually are and try not to add layers “just in case”. So not only should you make sure that you don’t require stuff that is backwards (eg the letter from today about the guy who insisted that all refunds require a TIN to issue a W9), but also that just add extra work.

      3. Clear and respectful communications. Just making sure that you explain why you need something and the potential impact to the organization if you don’t get it can make s *huge* difference. But also, try to be an ally and make the rest of the staff your allies.

    2. Tio*

      Hello, fellow regulatory compliance friend.

      One thing that I have found useful is to map out to leadership the outcomes of not being compliance. Missing documentation? $10,000 fine. Per set. Late filing? $5,000. etc. I’m in import, so play around with your actual regulations) Compliance is the silent killer – people undervalue it until they get a massive ding for not doing it, and reminding them what they’re NOT losing by having it tends to help.

      Secondly, have you established regular audits with departments? Trainings? KPIs for the compliance procedures? Newsletters/infoblasts on upcoming regulation changes? The more you make your department one that people are used to hearing from, the more they are likely to take you seriously and not seem like a bogeyman that jumps out of the shadows to cause problems or tell them no. Be proactive in introducing yourself to the teams you’re regulating and knowing how our procedures affect their work, and be positive and try and present them with solutions and ways to make the compliance seem like you’re working with them and not just an obstacle they have to overcome.

    3. I strive to Excel*

      Some thoughts:

      1. Is your senior management on board with the message? Or are they on board with actually doing what you need to get it done? For instance: “we want to encourage all employees to get their billed hours in” sounds nice in practice until you require all billable hours to be submitted by 5 PM Friday…when employees commonly work until 7 PM Friday (ballpark example here). Or on a different example, to use the famous Wells Fargo fraud case (employees opening credit card & deposit accounts using customer info) – the biggest reason why employees were fraudulently opening credit cards for customers was because management and upper management had set absurd opening metrics that all employees were required to meet or be fired. I guarantee you that if you’d asked the senior management if they were on board with “preventing fraud” they’d have all said “yes” without exception, but they didn’t stop using the impossible metrics.

      2. Once senior management is on board – is middle management? Same deal here; does the new compliance place a new and annoying workload on middle management? Can it be reduced in any way? Do they have metrics to hit – or are they setting impossible metrics?

      3. Employees – do they understand why the new compliance rules are in place? How hard is it to get whatever they need done with the new rules? Ideally you want to make it as easy as possible for employees to do what they need to. The more layers of paperwork you add for employees to get their jobs done, the less they will be happy.

      4. Finally, what enforcement authority do you have? If a shipment of goods is about to go out without having gone through proper Q&A (again, ballparking here) do you have the power to say “nope, that shipment’s not going out until Q&A has happened?” Or if you’re trying to get people to enter expenses, “no, you don’t get paid expenses back until we have itemized receipts/receipts at all”? Having a quick feedback loop of “you can’t do X until you’ve done Y” is going to be very important. I do not recommend penalizing people who haven’t done Y until and unless you see repeat offenders, and have an easy place for people to look up/ask questions about “how do I do Y so that I can get X done?”.

    4. lost academic*

      No exceptions for anyone, ever. Repercussions that are clearly communicated from the beginning and consistently applied. Make sure senior staff are modeling the culture. You are having to get your team to change behaviors and that’s hard, but it’s necessary and you need to regularly communicate the reasons for that to everyone in the right fashion (senior partners need one kind, junior staff need a different kind).

      Quantifiable annual review metrics help – e.g. you can’t meet or exceed expectations in a non-trivial category without a clear demonstration that you were in compliance. If your reviews are tied to your opportunity for a raise, promotion and/or bonus, it will help. Some places use a composite score including that but I think I’d also consider having it be a separate factor, which is that no one who isn’t compliant as defined by XYZ can get ABC. It makes it real, real fast.

      I also worked at a firm that is now known for a particular kind of compliance behavior (heavily anonymizing it here). They didn’t used to be, and they were getting into trouble internationally for that particular problem and it was risking major global clients. The requirement and expectation for all staff changed quickly and they put their money where their mouth was – a senior partner was fired over noncompliance, and that was brought up by every recruiter and hiring manager.

    5. spiriferida*

      I haven’t worked in compliance but I have been a worker in an environment that required it, and here are some of the things that were important to making sure that I could fill in my part in following regulations

      1. A direct manager who was actively checking on compliance. Didn’t have to be QCing every project, but even asking regularly about it in check-ins made it clear that it was something to focus on day-to-day.

      2. Time for the work being built into my schedule/time estimates, especially in situations where I was facing pressure from clients to get things delivered ASAP.

    6. learnedthehardway*

      Not a compliance professional, but I have recruited a lot of compliance roles – one thing candidates who have been successful tell me is that they build relationships with the leaders of the groups they are monitoring, spend time with them to understand their business operations, explain the benefits of compliance in terms that the business leader can appreciate (eg. reducing risk, savings costs, streamlining processes), as well as the costs of not being in compliance (fines, more gov’t oversight, etc. etc.)

      Basically, a carrot and stick approach, with a heavy emphasis on the carrots until/unless they can’t get through to the person. Then roping in management and legal as needed to stick handle the person into the proper compliance posture.

      1. Hiphopanonymous*

        This – relationships are really important for compliance. I’ve worked in heavily regulated roles for 20+ years and have always had good relationships with our compliance teams. You want things to be a partnership – people should be able to ask compliance questions, or have compliance weigh in on a situation, without fear of backlash or getting a “talking to.” Find ways you can help teams be compliant – maybe you set up meetings to review and update SOPs and ensure they are being followed, maybe you guide people through paperwork completion when there is a compliance issue, host compliance/best practices presentations for individual teams, etc. Basically, you want the compliance team to be a know, normal part of everyone else’s jobs, so that they see you as partners and will loop you in when there is a real compliance concern because they know you are there to help.

    7. I Have RBF*

      One of the ways my company handles compliance is training and making it a KPI goal for their annual review: “Complete all required training on time throughout the year.” The company has at least one safety/compliance “course” (often just a PDF) every month, plus the annual big ones. The training, which includes information on what is required/permitted/prohibited and the penalties for violation, covers all sorts of stuff – safety, workplace harassment, insider trading, PII, HIPAA and PHI, etc.

      Departments that are responsible for compliance with certain requirements have those requirements as KPIs, and they are expected as goals to meet. Something like “File all monthly TPS reports with the Teapot Quality Board completed and by the 15th of the subsequent month.” (I suppose you could wrestle the wording around to have it in SMART format.) These are not optional or stretch goals. The reason to make compliance efforts into goals for performance is the Druckerism “only what is measured gets managed.” Anything else ends up being lip service only.

      TL; DR: Make compliance a measured goal, from the top down.

    8. LMS manager*

      I took a Coursera course on compliance cultures that I highly recommend. Some step by step info, as well as best practices. Regulatory Compliance Specialization from U Penn Law.

    9. Part time lab tech*

      Quality control experience here. Separate management helps, so compliance and the people being checked are less open to persuasion. Normalising mistakes and being non-punitive if any are found. If there are penalties for covering up mistakes but mistakes are corrected only, people find it easier to own up and correct. If combined with regular checks, even typo level mistakes can be improved.
      I find understanding why the compliance system is the way it is helpful.

  10. Achtung, Baby*

    What, if anything, can you do when a manager sucks but they’re not YOUR manager?

    I am part of a creative services group split between two managers. The two teams work closely together, and our managers are on the same level and also work closely together. My manager (L) works remotely from home two states away, though they visit as often as they needs to. She’s somewhat detached from the day to day but is overall a good manager. The other manager (C) works out of my office. They had no previous management experience and it shows – it’s come to a head recently, with a real lack of communication, hard to get ahold of, changing plans at the last minute without telling anyone, and some behavior I see as unprofessional. My coworkers who work under them say there’s no leadership and no professional development happening. But they’re not my manager – and I’m not sure if the VP they report to would do anything about it anyway. This doesn’t *directly* affect my work though it does affect the creative group’s output as a whole.

    Do I just have to support my coworkers as best I can and deal with it?

    1. Tio*

      If they’re not your manager and not affecting your work, yeah, you don’t really have much standing to raise anything. Hopefully someone above C has been made aware/noticed, but it would be really dicey for someone else’s report to bring it up without a direct issue.

    2. MsM*

      You can go to L and flag that you’re being held up by the stuff C’s reports aren’t getting the support they need from C on. Hopefully she’s not so detached that she won’t pass it along or try and talk to C. Alternatively, encourage the coworkers to document what’s been happening and go to the VP or whoever in higher management they do think might listen as a group.

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you need to support your coworkers, and perhaps encourage them to bring the specific things that impact their work and their output to the VP. I’d try to get them to stick to whatever is going on that has negative impact on the output.

      Secondly, you could mention any struggles you’ve seen to your manager. Extra important are those things that have slowed any projects down.

    4. Quinalla*

      I would try and advise them on what to do themselves to improve it, that’s what I’ve done in similar situations where I wasn’t in a position to approach their manager myself. And of course sympathize!

    5. TechWorker*

      Where does the management chain ‘join’ – eg do your manager and the bad manager report to the same VP? I would definitely loop in your manager – they may or may not decide it’s worth looping in the VP but it’s not unreasonable to tell them about it.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yes, my manager and C report to the same VP, who is never around. My manager would likely be sympathetic but I’m not sure there’s much to be done. If either my manager or the VP were more hands on, we’d probably be able to get somewhere, but as it is it feels like my department gets left to our own devices a lot.

  11. Rosie*

    My company offers a benefit where each employee gets $25 to order off CVS’s OTC/generic brand program website each quarter.

    Just got my order in the mail, and the generic Flonase I ordered expires this November. CVS customer service said it couldn’t be replaced because it’s not already expired. Doesn’t matter that it’s nearly expired.

    Is this something I should send an email/ticket to my employer’s benefits team about? I wonder if they keep a record of complaints about this stuff to take into consideration when deciding if they want to use the program next year. (Doesn’t seem great that CVS might be using the program to offload old products!) Or would saying something make me look petty/complainy since I got the nearly expired medicine for free through my employer?

    1. MsM*

      I don’t think it can hurt to flag. At worst, they’ll just shrug and say nothing they can do, but hopefully they’ll take the feedback into account and look into solutions/alternatives.

    2. Tio*

      I would put in a note, although it may be that that’s HOW they get the free product – by offering overstock/stuff close to expiration at a super discount that the company then offers free, so nothing may be done. But the worst that would probably happen if you dropped a note to the company benefits is they go “Well, nothing we can do about it.” But if you send it in a non-aggressive tone they probably won’t be upset at you.

      1. Rosie*

        I got it free through my employer’s program. I don’t know what my employer pays for the program or if they get a special deal or anything. Not sure how benefits work on the employer’s side.

        1. Tio*

          Right, I’m just letting you know that some programs work like this, and that might be how the program was conceived, so this may just be how it works. It might not, which is why I say raise the ticket as feedback, but don’t have too high hopes for it necessarily being changed.

    3. Morgan Proctor*

      Yes, send the email! My company’s HR team sends out yearly surveys asking people if we actually like/use our benefits, and change accordingly. I’d word it as, “Just sending you a head’s up about this issue I had with this benefit,” rather than complaining about it.

      1. Rosie*

        I submitted a ticket and noted it was just an FYI in case other employees are reporting the same issue. :)

    4. Somehow I Manage*

      I think I’d probably lean toward saying nothing. You’ve got about 3 months, give or take, to use the product before the expiration date. It would be different if the expiration date was something like a week from now.

      You could reach out to a pharmacist or the manufacturer and ask how much the efficacy of the medication is impacted upon expiration. It may be that you’ll still have some extra time beyond what is listed on the product where you have 100% efficacy.

      1. Zephy*

        +1 to your second point. The Flonase doesn’t become toxic deadly poison on December 1st, it just may be less effective after November.

    5. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      It won’t hurt to raise it as a concern, but you should probably keep your expectations for a response at zero.

      Also, there’s nothing wrong with the Flonase. The expiration date is there to shield the company from liability if the product doesn’t work as promised; however, in most cases the medicine will continue to work just fine past the marked exp date as long as it’s stored properly. It doesn’t become unsafe or spontaneously stop working.

      1. Rosie*

        I wasn’t expecting them to do anything, just wasn’t sure if it’d be useful for them to know.

        I know solid medicines can be good for years after the expiration date (my Tylenol usually sits around for several years!) but liquids/gels/creams degrade and are more likely to be contaminated by bacteria the longer you go past the expiration. I only use Flonase a few times a year, so just didn’t seem great to me to get one that was almost already expired.

        1. Seashell*

          Do you know anyone else who uses Flonase? I use it pretty much daily, so I would gladly swap with someone in your position for one with a later expiration date.

          1. Rosie*

            I know some people like me who use it occasionally, but unfortunately not anyone who uses it daily (as far as I know—I’d feel weird asking people about it).

          2. fhqwhgads*

            Yeah I was about to say, I thought for it to be effective you kinda need to use it daily during allergy-time. Pretty sure my doc said that. So if it’s something you needed now, I’d expect it to be used up by November. If it expired Sept 1, I get the beef, but unless it’s more than a 90 day supply, it’s well within a reasonable window to use it. It’s not like Tylenol where you might not go through a bottle in a year. Different use case.

            1. Rosie*

              I use it when I’m having problems with fluid in my ear (clogged feeling, sounds muffled, constant ringing). Doctor told me to use Flonase for a week. It clears up pretty quickly, but it happens a few times a year. My family members go to the doctor for bad colds sometimes and they’re told the remedy is Flonase and an allergy pill for a week or so. It can be used for more than seasonal allergies.

              1. fhqwhgads*

                Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that was the only use-case. Replace “allergy time” in my example with “when you have a need for it”. My point was more that it’s not something used one day here or there. Like you said, you’re using it for a week at a time, which makes more sense. But using one 30 day supply for 3 weeks over the course of the year does mean the bottle’s probably contaminated. So, you can do it, but it’s not recommended.

        2. allergiesabound*

          Just FYI- Flonase recommends that you only use a canister for 30 days and then replace to limit contamination. So a 3 month window should be fine if you haven’t ordered more than 3 of them.

          1. Rosie*

            Didn’t know that. I usually just use it for a week a few times a year and throw it out at some point after it expires. I guess since it goes in your nose it gets contaminated quickly!

    6. Rainy*

      CVS is awful, but my experience with my org moving to only CVS being in-network indicates that your org will not listen to your complaints. And as you’ve already discovered, CVS would be happy if you’d just die and stop using medication while your employer keeps paying them.

    7. Hyaline*

      Maybe it’s just me but…November isn’t really “nearly expired”? I guess for a product like Flonase a store could reasonably expect that it would be used within a couple months (if not days/weeks) of purchase so wouldn’t consider that a problem? I can completely see your point–if you were purchasing to stock up using your benefit it’s totally normal to not use it within the next couple months–but I’m afraid this is probably an issue most companies aren’t going to get up in arms over.

      Can you return the product in-store for an exchange if you won’t use it before the expiration?

    8. SofiaDeo*

      There used to be a requirement in a state I worked in, that OTC’s had to be good for 6 months. This was decades ago, IDK if anything may have changed. Check with your State Board of Pharmacy to see if it’s relevant to your state. I believe any company shipping to any state, has to follow the pharmacy laws regarding that state.

      1. SofiaDeo*

        Note: this is called “selling a short dated” item. Many hospitals I worked in, could return both Rx and OTC items if their expiration date was fewer than 6 months; the distributor could not refuse the return.

  12. Alex*

    I’m curious how everyone structures their mornings. I’m an ADHD lawyer who works 8-10 hours a day about 30 minutes from home. My nature instinct is to wake up, rush out the door, and get to work about 15 minutes before my day starts, but I’m starting to think that I need longer mornings. When I take the time to have some iced coffee, do a little more hair and makeup, pack my lunch/snacks (in my already packed bags) I feel like I’m more focused throughout the day. It’s just hard for me to want to give up that extra half hour of sleep in the mornings.

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t have ADHD so it might be more straightforward for me, but a couple of years ago I decided to start waking up at the same time every weekday morning, and it really works for me. My particular wake-up time is 5:45am, because that means if I want to go to the gym or for a run on a WFH day, I can do that and still be home in time to have a shower and start work, and if I’m going to the office it means I have plenty of time to get ready, commute into town, buy a coffee and start work on time. I totally agree about feeling more focused and ready to get on with the day – during Covid lockdown when I was WFH five days a week I found myself literally just getting up in time to have a shower, get dressed and start work, and I always felt groggy. Giving myself time to do something in the morning means I’m feeling bright and refreshed by the time my work day begins.

    2. Alex*

      I roll out of bed and either start working, or go into work if it is an in-office day, so I guess I’m no help lol. I also struggle to get out of bed in the mornings until the absolute last minute.

      1. Sc@rlettNZ*

        Same here. I HATE getting up in the mornings. I’ve been WFH for a while now but am going back into the office 3 days a week soon and it’s going to be a rude shock to the system (even though my commute is only a 10-15 minute drive).

    3. Cordelia*

      I prefer the sleep tbh! I make coffee, shower while it brews, get dressed while it cools, gulp it down while drying my hair and grabbing the lunch that I have usually made or at least planned the night before. Then I’m out. If I sit down during this process I find it harder to get going again.
      It means that at the weekends, when my inflexible body clock wakes me up at the same time as in the week, I can lounge around having breakfast and watching TV or surfing the net and it feels like a bit of a treat

    4. lost academic*

      You practically describe me in every word here. When I successfully hit all the morning prep time that I know I ought to have rather than minimizing prep time/maximizing time in bed, I am much more productive and I am generally feeling much better that day. Creating a new habit as an adult and even more so as an adult with ADHD is hard, but it’s built one day at a time. Also I have to admit to myself that the extra time I’d have spent “sleeping” wasn’t of any actual value to me.

    5. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’ve got ADHD, and I find that having a morning routine is really helpful to me. I wake up, do my morning stretch routine, get dressed, and sit down for 30ish minutes with my breakfast and a cup of tea. And my brain has internalized the routine as my signal that I’m ready to start the day. I do feel much less scattered than I did when I was just throwing on clothes and eating breakfast in the car, and I feel like I get a lot more done at work that way.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        ADHD here too, and I agree with this so much! I need my mornings. I used to be a night owl, but now mornings are my favorite time of day.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      I work from home about 95% of the time. I wake up, usually sometime between 5:30 and 6, and do chores (put away clean dishes, make my son’s lunch for daycare, feed the cats, scoop the litterbox, make the coffee) that are easier to do without a hyperactive preschooler hanging on me. Then I try to get my face washed and get dressed before he wakes up. If he wakes up before I’m ready, I set him up for playing on his own in his room until I’m done. Then we make breakfast, usually starting around 7:15-7:30. My husband brings him to daycare at 8, I go for a walk, then I start working in my home office at 8:30. On non-daycare days, the lunch-making is unnecessary, and I usually play with my son until I start work and dad takes over as primary caregiver.

    7. Admin of Sys*

      I have been absolutely loving getting up a few hours before my day starts, and sincerely regret it when i sleep in. But I also adjusted pretty well to the earlier bed time, so a lot of it is dependent on the amount of sleep you’re getting. (and also, I’m wfh, so my commute in nonexistent these days – but even when i had work, the slow ramp up was desperately important for not feeling frazzled)
      I wake up around 6a, start coffee, get dressed / etc, then have breakfast while checking personal and work emails. At 8:30a (8a when i had to drive in) I top off the coffee and head to the computer.
      I used to be the ‘wake up and frantically rush’ but while the looming deadline got me past some executive dysfunction slow downs, it made the entire process full of flailing panic. Being able to meander through the morning is worth the occasional stall.

    8. Justin*

      Also ADHD, but with a kid and a dog. So I do get up early, but it’s, like, coffee, dog, kid, running, THEN work. So I get the ADHD rush of getting a lot done but not an immediate work focus.

    9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I know I am more productive if I work out in the mornings. But I still stay in bed too long

    10. Blue Pen*

      On the days I’m WFH, I honestly just roll out of bed about 20 minutes before I start, take my medication, and pour my coffee and get my breakfast ready to go.

      I also live about 30 mins away. On the days I’m in the office, I wake up about an hour or before I have to be in the office, take my medication and get dressed, pack up my stuff, and stop off at Starbucks on the way in to get my coffee and breakfast.

      I take my showers at night and try to have an outfit picked out ahead of time. I’m not a big makeup wearer or hair-doer, either, so I try to keep everything as simple as possible. I also leave earlier in the morning than most to get to the office earlier (I’m almost always the first one in), so I rarely—if ever—hit traffic.

    11. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I work from home, but my routine goes
      (usually wake up before alarm)
      5:45 alarm
      check emails, discord, any text messages that came in overnight
      read morning AAM post
      Look at Facebook memories
      daily solitaire, water-sorting and sudoku challenges on my phone games
      1 Duolingo lesson (as long as it’s after 6, which it usually is)
      read a couple other particular sites
      6:30 alarm – get up, possibly with a snooze or two first to keep dinking around on phone
      bathroom, morning ablutions, take meds, get dressed
      turn on the bedroom light, turn off the house alarm, take woofapotamus collar off the doorknob, open the door
      Let the woofapotamus out of her crate, put her collar on, take both dogs downstairs (turning off the light and closing the bedroom door on the way)
      dogs outside
      start working 7am
      doggy breakfast at 8am, grab myself a protein shake while they eat

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          115 pounds of grey Great Dane who bumbled around underfoot like a baby hippo when she was still growing so fast she couldn’t remember where her feet were :) she is much less clumsy now but it still stuck.

    12. Minimal Pear*

      Yeah, I’m a lot like you. I’ve found that I just function so much better if I wake up at 6 AM, as long as I’ve gone to bed early enough that I’m getting enough sleep.
      I like to get up, take my meds and eat, and then just kind of hang out while my meds kick in. I’m going to have some groggy time in the morning no matter what, so I like to get it out of the way early. That way I have plenty of time to get ready while feeling more alert.
      Planning what I’m going to have for breakfast the night before helps a lot, even if I don’t make my breakfast until the next morning.
      I’m thinking I should also pick out my clothes the night before but I haven’t managed that yet.

    13. FricketyFrack*

      I usually wake up about 60-90 min before I need to leave because I really struggle to shake off the stress of rushing. A huge help for me was getting one of those alarm clocks with a light that brightens gradually. I’m so much less resentful waking up that way than I am with an abrupt, loud alarm, and I very rarely feel like I really, really want the extra sleep anymore.

      Other option, get a dog that can tell time and refuses to let you sleep in even if you want to, because 6:30 IS potty time, no negotiations. You can borrow mine! I can only rarely convince her to leave me be until 7 on the weekends because she knows that’s late.

    14. Ellis Bell*

      Your routine is my old one; I have the typical ADHD struggle with mornings, so my instinct was to wring out as much sleep as possible and rush through them. Now, I have very leisurely mornings and it’s been a game changer; you need to be disciplined about getting to bed on time though, because it’s never going to work if you’re short changing yourself on sleep. I would start with your evening routine tbh. My overall routine is to pack up my lunch, do a premade breakfast like overnight oats, lay out clothes and prep my hair before relaxing in the evening and going to bed early. I’m still impossibly sleepy when I’m getting up, but I use a gradual music alarm and gradual lightning to get me up to light sleep instead of shocking myself awake. Then I do a very quick yoga routine to stretch it all out (by far the most productive thing to get me focused), have breakfast, coffee, shower (using a playlist to keep me on track and from losing time), get ready and go. I get in early too, to beat traffic and I might do fishing touches to hair and some makeup if I’m wearing any, at work.

    15. Maleficent*

      I’ve been pondering a similar question the last week or so. I’ve started showering and doing my hair as soon as I wake up, then having my coffee/breakfast/meds. I don’t love getting up a little earlier, but I find that I’m able to focus a little better during the day. I don’t do it consistently yet, especially on WFH days, but I’m trying to convince Inner Chaos Goblin that losing that half hour of sleep is worth it to make the rest of the day better.

    16. DannyG*

      20+ years of 12 hour overnight or bridge shifts: 1). Sleep on a fixed schedule. I gave myself 8 hrs of sleep and 30 minutes each way for commuting, leaving 3 hours. Typically I gave myself 2 hours when I got home and 1 hours upon waking up. That leads to 2). Prep for the day before sleep: food (I did meal prep on my off days and had frozen lunches and dinners ready to go. Non-perishable items in my bag, etc. lay out clothes for the next day, and have enough of everything so that you don’t have to worry about laundry during the week. Make your meals upon getting up simple: fruit & yogurt & nuts was my usual. Bottom line: be organized and intentional.

    17. kalli*

      If I have to go in, I wake up and spend half an hour gaming or reading forums before I get ready, during which time I have music on. It gives my brain a bit more time to get all the executive functions working together and at speed, and time for nutrients to kick in, as well as the mental transition from ‘home’ to ‘work’ and the process of shower, appearance, packing things in the car and whatnot.

      I find the benefit of the routine eventually outweighs the slightly less sleep because I ‘wake up’ more than if I get out of bed and skip doing my hair, use a compact for makeup, just grab a whatever and go within an hour, and then I also find that my sleep is a better quality and more restful even if it is still 2 x 1.5hr bursts over the night – it’s actually real sleep not half-twilight dozing waiting for sleep.

      But I also find my focus is naturally better in the late afternoon/early evening and if I happen to schedule stuff then and let myself rest/doze until my body naturally starts becoming more alert sometime between midday and 2pm, then that’s when I’m most functional regardless of whether I spend time waking my brain up or chugging caffeine. If I log into work at 8am I will still be fuzzy until after my lunch break regardless of whether I’m up at 5am and have done everything ‘right’ or if my alarm went at 7:48am and I’m still getting a drink at 8:15 and the computer is still logging itself in at 9am. As such, I wouldn’t necessarily rule out there being a circadian rhythm factor as well as the ‘ideal home-work transition’ factor of taking the time for ingesting fuel and mentally preparing.

    18. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Like you I hate to give up morning bed time, but my days improved a lot when I started getting up 20+ minutes earlier.

      I get up at 7, bathe, eat breakfast (smoothie made the night before) while listening to a news podcast, get dressed (clothes put out the night before), dress and do makeup etc., assemble my lunch (pre-made and usually divided into containers already) and then noodle around reading the news or playing a game or sitting on the balcony for about 20-30 minutes until I have to leave.

      The addition of the noodling time made the mornings feel SO much less rushed and allowed for some mishap in the morning. Also choosing my clothes beforehand was huge for me, because while I like clothes I don’t like morning thinking. Walking to work means I need to be cognizant of the weather and plan it out.

      I walk to work, so minimal commute luckily, and have my coffee there.

    19. Janne*

      I don’t have ADHD but I do have a hard time not sleeping until I have to hurry to work. A structured and easy routine really helps me – as soon as I don’t do it, I get to work late.

      6:45 alarm, start microwave with breakfast (put it in there the night before) and start hot water for coffee (also prepared the night before), wash face, put clothes on, do hair
      7:00 prepare lunch (sandwiches and raw vegetables) and snacks (nuts, fruit) for the day
      7:15 eat breakfast
      7:45 get ready for leaving the house (brush teeth, pack bag, close windows, lights off, etc)
      8:00-8:30 commute by bike

      Preparing my breakfast and coffee the night before really helps to get me going. Also, oats taste a lot better when they have soaked for some time.

    20. Ama*

      I will be honest, one of the reasons I decided to go full-time freelance is because I realized I was never going to be able to reconcile needing at least 40 minutes to putter around and get ready in the morning and the fact that I am not and will never be a morning person as long as I worked a 9 to 5 (even WFH, while better, was rough).

      But while I was working a 9 to 5, I did find that I was happier and more ready to work at 9 when I gave myself that 40 minutes (even pre-pandemic when I needed 40 minutes at home and another 40 minutes for my commute). I am not ADHD but my brain needs time to wake up.

    21. Agnes Grey*

      I value my sleep too but have learned tgat I also really benefit from a less-rushed morning. I’ve finally taught myself to do certain things in the evening and that has been so helpful. I make sure that everything that needs to be in my bag is in my bag, pack up lunch if I’ve been organized enough to lay in supplies, and set out the clothes I’ll wear the next day – it really takes the pressure off the mornings, which is good because I’m slow to wake and the less I have to think about, the better. One of the best decisions I ever made, too, was to buy a coffee maker with a timer. I set it up to start brewing just before my alarm goes off and it’s been life-changing!

    22. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      My sibling has ADHD (emphasis on the H) and does the same thing you do. They work 8 hour days an hour away from home so they ultimately decided not to give up the extra sleep.

      My spouse also has ADHD (hyper-focusing type with no sense of time). He decided to forego the sleep for a longer morning routine so he could feel more focused throughout the day. But he found he absolutely has to follow the routine to the letter because if there’s any deviation, it throws him off completely and he feels disoriented throughout the day.

      I have ADHD to a lesser degree than those two and I do much better if I get up early, go swim at the pool for an hour, then come home to work (I WFH) but bed is sooooo comfy and it’s so easy to just roll out of bed and walk across the hall to my office. So I try to at least alternate days so MWF I get pool time and TTh I get to sleep in an extra hour.

    23. BikeWalkBarb*

      I WFH so I have flexibility. My body wakes me up around the same time most mornings within about a 20-minute time frame so I don’t set an alarm unless I have a can’t-miss early meeting. I feel much more rested waking up naturally, and when I do have an alarm it’s one with bird calls rather than a buzzer.

      I need time to sit with coffee and let my brain wake up. I read poetry every morning–perfect because it isn’t a narrative hook that keeps me reading, it isn’t nonfiction that I’m trying to retain for educational value. I also go to grateful dot org for the QOTD; that community has become part of my morning routine. Then I get dressed and do whatever I might be doing for face/hair/body that morning (which varies a bit, not a full shower/makeup every day), fix breakfast, eat, and go into my home office.

      If I have to accelerate the schedule, I’ll fix breakfast and eat it while reading the poetry so I still get some stretching of my brain cells before I have to work with them.

      This routine occasionally includes 30 minutes of yoga but that keeps falling off.

      There’s no way I can go from fast asleep to a dead sprint right away. Your schedule sounds painful. If you start getting up earlier can you start going to bed earlier to get the same amount of sleep? Sleep is a vital food group and there’s no way I’d want to give up sleep either.

    24. Jaydee*

      I am in a similar boat. What I’ve found helpful is making my morning routine (especially on in-office days) as barrier free as possible. That isn’t always possible since I have a kid and pets and dishes just magically appear in the sink whenever my back is turned. But a few things I’ve found helpful include:

      – Washing my hair less. It took a while, but I’ve got it pretty well trained to only need washed every other day, and in winter I can sometimes go longer than that. Whenever possible, I wash my hair at night or on WFH days so I don’t have to do it in the morning on an in-office day. It makes showering quicker and less annoying for me.

      – Easy breakfasts. Either something I can make ahead of time and just grab or something that is very quick to prepare.

      – Have something to look forward to in the morning. I love a slow morning. If I can wake up early enough, I’ll get up and use the bathroom, take my meds and put my contacts in, and go back to bed. I’ll snuggle the dog, read some AAM or play a quick game on my phone, read a chapter or two of a book. I try to avoid my husband because he’s the opposite and is a total morning person who wants to have full-fledged conversations and recite his to-do list to me at 6 am, which I find incredibly stressful.

      – Do a small productive thing. Make your bed. Load the dishwasher. Fold and put away the towels you washed yesterday. Water your houseplants. Pick up all the dog’s toys and put them away. The two keys here are it has to be something quick and easy (15ish minutes or less, not a ton of thinking required) and it has to have a visible or tangible result (nearly made bed, empty kitchen sink, tidy floor and a basket full of squeak toys, a couple of bills or letters ready to drop in the mail). You now have a thing you can put on your to-do list and check off immediately. Go you! Keep that productivity up for the rest of the day.

      – Try to avoid surprises. Know what’s worse than rolling out of bed at the last minute, scrambling to get ready, and rushing out the door with barely enough time to get to work? Starting your car and realizing you have to add a stop for gas on your way in. I’m not great at it, but I try to get those one-off things that sneak up done in advance so I don’t have surprises in the morning.

      The thing that probably helps the most but is also the hardest (and lately has been such a struggle) is getting to bed at a decent time. If I wake up well-rested, it’s a lot easier to get up and face the day. If I’m exhausted I’m more likely to sleep in until the last minute, do the bare minimum, and be off my game all day.

    25. Hatchet*

      For me it’s shower -> eat breakfast (overnight oatmeal or Eggos) & watch morning news (or Olympics recently) for about 10-15 mins -> get dressed/do hair -> make lunch & coffee -> leave.
      I’ve found that taking the time to sit and eat breakfast is a good middle break in the getting ready process. I can’t eat breakfast until 30 mins after I take medication, so it’s medication & then 10 mins of snooze prior to shower.
      The whole process can take about an hour, but I’ve learned to fast-track it on mornings I need to leave earlier. I feel you on the wanting to sleep more. I like hot showers, so that’s my reward for getting out of bed; I can’t have my coffee until I’m in the car on the way to work, so that’s my reward for leaving the house at the early hour. Do you have any “rewards” you can use for getting up early?

    26. constant_craving*

      Also ADHD.

      Wake up 5:35
      Walk dog
      Go for a run (when it’s cooler this can be combined with walking the dog, but I’m not risking having her run in the current heat)
      Shower
      Get my son up
      Breakfast while running around getting said son to cooperate with getting ready for school
      Daycare drop off, then off to work

      I go to bed no later than 10pm. I know you didn’t ask about evening routine, but I feel like that’s an important factor when figuring out if you can give yourself more time in the morning.

  13. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’ve been working as an Admin Assistant/Executive Assistant/Office Manager for the past 4.5 years and am interested in moving away from those types of positions. Any ideas of what I should be looking for? I have a Bachelor’s Degree, but it’s in Theatre, so it doesn’t help much.

    1. H*

      Does anything immediately come to your mind as being interesting to you? I feel like Executive Asst experience could be used in a lot of ways and in a lot of roles but it depends on your interests. Also why are you wanting a change now?

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I think I’m just getting burnt out from managing egos. I’m tired of managing calendars (especially when people won’t give me access to details), coordinating lunches, and being expected to improve the company’s culture without the tools to do so. I don’t want to have to be “on” all the time.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      What aspects of those jobs do you like? I’ve done similar work and got a project management certificate because that seemed like the next logical step as an admin person, but it turns out I hate project mangement (or at least the PMP framework).

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I like data entry, research, and accounting. I like working with other people, but I don’t like “managing up.”

        1. Yes And*

          Have you thought about getting a bookkeeping certification? It involves all of those skills you enjoy, and it’s a fairly in-demand skill set. Registrar at a school might also be of interest.

    3. Morgan Proctor*

      What about something like a production coordinator for a theater? There’s no reason why you can’t marry your experience with your degree!

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I would love to do that, but unfortunately there aren’t many theatre jobs in my city and moving is not an option.

        1. Morgan Proctor*

          Set up google alerts for the theaters in your area! It might take some time, but things do pop up.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        That sounds interesting. Does it involve a lot of travel? I’d like to avoid that if possible.

        1. Just Here for the Cake*

          Its a mix and really depends on the company. I would avoid things like sales training if you don’t want to travel, but there are a lot of training jobs that are in house. Check out the Association for Talent Development (who should have a local chapter near you)!

    5. Burned Out Banker*

      Wait… are we twins? Because SAME. I’m looking into theatre admin jobs and stage managing for community/children’s theatre, but I’m fortunate to be moving to a larger city soon where the opportunities are there – they’re definitely not plentiful in my current city!

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        We might be! I actually moved to Chicago in December of 2019 hoping to pursue acting, but COVID messed that up. I ended up moving back home for family reasons. My city has a thriving theatre scene, but jobs are hard to come by.

        1. Burned Out Banker*

          Same! We have lots of theatre here and getting in is extremely hard, but once you’re in, you’re in… it’s so frustrating. I wish I had advice for you, but I can definitely sympathize!

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      I work in prospect research at a university, and a lot of folks in the development (fundraising) field get started in admin roles. From there, you can move into jobs like data management, prospect research, communications, events management, or even front-line fundraising. I honestly think a theater background could come in quite handy for a front-line fundraiser, as you’re probably quite good at telling stories in an engaging way, which helps in donor conversations, as it makes them interested in supporting the work of the organization.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        My father worked in development for a long time and was really good about it. He’s always loved theatre and music, so I’ve considered this. I just don’t know how I’d feel about the travel.

    7. Former Admin Turned PM*

      Well, I may a bit biased, but I find that the transition into project management is a great path. I was doing admin support (dept. admin, then admin to the VP that my previous department reported to) for about 4.5 years at my current organization when I took a job that still involved some admin stuff (creating agendas and capturing meeting notes for our board) while incorporating meeting planning and projects. I did that for 11 years before coming into a fully project management role in 2016 (no more notetaking, but using a lot of the org management skills and certification from my time in our governance area).

    9. Taketombo*

      In construction the “construction coordinator” is generally tracking payments, documents, chasing down signatures, filing paperwork – general admin stuff – but there is a clear progression path from coordinator > assistant project manager > project manager.

      Construction hours are generally more in the 7-3 range (early start, early finish) and, well, it’s construction so the field offices you’d be in are class C at best, the coffee is plentiful and bad, and everyone curses. On the plus side, jeans/khakis and a polo is appropriate, and if you upgrade to a blouse or button-down you’re *professional.*

      1. Taketombo*

        Also I’ve known a number of performing arts (mainly music, I think one theater) grads in the role who took advantage of the done-by-3 to work on performances in the evening.

    10. NotARealManager*

      I feel you as someone in a similar role with a degree in film production. My biggest advice is to keep your theatre skills sharp so when something pops up in that arena, you can take it.

      At my company we’ve just relaunched a media wing and guess who was put in charge? It’s been a great opportunity, but it’s been about a decade since I had to use a lot of my film skills (the company knew this) so there have been some growing pains for me in the last few weeks as I find my sea legs again.

  14. pally*

    Question about salary data on various websites like Bureau of Labor Statistics, salary.com and similar: Is the salary cited just the wages paid or does it also include the benefits (converted to a dollar amount)?

    My boss says the salary data cited consists of wages plus benefits converted to a dollar amount.

    So if I’m being paid $70K in wages, and the benefits amount to $30K, then I’m being compensated $100K. If the various salary data sites indicate I should be receiving a salary of $100K then I’m being paid the going rate. Right?

    Second question: In job ads, when a salary is cited, and a run-down of the benefits is included, then what is that salary number? Is it wages or is it the wages + benefits converted to a dollar amount? Hence, if they cite a salary of $100K, then I would expect my pay to be $100k minus all the benefits = a number far below $100K. Right?

    1. Tio*

      In job ads, most salaries are simply the money you will receive on your paycheck, regardless of additional benefits. That why you need to look into the benefits when offered a job or interviewing – if two jobs offer the same salary but one has employer covered insurance premiums and one you have to pay out of pocket then you are actually taking home more at the first.

    2. Jules the First*

      For the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the answer is both – they collect “compensation” data (which is salaries plus benefits) and “wage” data (which is cash only).

      Most job adds list the salary if they post a number, unless they are referring to a “package” or sometimes “compensation” rather than salary in so many words.

    3. I strive to Excel*

      Job ads – no, unless it is specifically stated in the ad description, the salary is the wage you are being paid and then benefits are an additional amount. If a job ad lists a salary of $100k and then I walk into the office and they say “actually it’s 70k but you get 30k in benefits”, I’m walking right back out.

    4. Two Dog Night*

      I think your boss is generally wrong–in most cases the salary is just the salary, without benefits. If I saw a salary listed in a job ad I’d expect that to be the actual amount I was going to be paid, not including benefits.

    5. Rainy*

      Your boss is wrong. If you should be receiving a salary of 100k and you are making 70k you are being ripped off.

      Job ads are listing a range that indicates your gross wages for the year/month/hour (depending). It’s going to be less taxes and your contribution to medical/retirement etc, but it’s not going to be less the value of your benefits.

      I have a feeling you are being dramatically underpaid and your boss is trying hard to keep you from realizing it.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^That last sentence is the situation. When I look up salary ranges for my job, they show the salary amount which is NOT (nor ever has been and I’ve been working over 25 years) inclusive of benefits. If I look at a job range and the range is $75k-$80k that is the amount I can expect on my W2 at year-end, and same for the job ad. Your boss is trying hard to bamboozle you, if the average job in your role out there is $100k and you are getting $70k, you should be job searching IMMEDIATELY.

        1. BetsCounts*

          the only way this is NOT the case is if you are in non profit or government and the positions you are comparing to your existing job are in industry

      2. BetsCounts*

        “I have a feeling you are being dramatically underpaid and your boss is trying hard to keep you from realizing it.”
        Strong agree Rainy! If your gross salary is 70K and you are seeing comparable jobs on hiring sites listing 100K you are (almost certainly) being underpaid.

    6. Anon Attorney*

      I can’t speak to statistics, but in my state re: the salary transparency law for job advertisements, salary is the base salary without benefits

    7. pally*

      Thanks all for your responses. They really helped. Kinda figured the boss was jiving me.
      Like to say yeah, I’ll go look for a new job. But I have been since 2015. No bites -other than a no benefits job which paid even less than I make now.

      At least I know I’m not misunderstanding how salary websites work.

    8. BigLawEx*

      For many state/gov’t jobs – the statistics list both wage and overall compensation. But they’re always different numbers listed side by side. Because I’m nosy and NY and CA often have compensation by name of individual I’ve seen this many times.

  15. I Super Believe In You, Tad Cooper*

    Hey all! For those of you who have switched from crazy-workload jobs to slow jobs: what recommendations do you have for helping yourself slow down?

    For the past few years I’ve worked at very fast-paced, high-volume agencies (all in notoriously high stress sectors, think events) where I’d often be juggling 16-20 projects a day and got very good at being hyper-efficient. For my own sanity I switched to an in-house job at an association which has been great for my work life balance—but I have been struggling to drop the everything-is-a-fire-drill mindset, and find myself rushing when I really don’t need to.

    I’m trying to take more time going through background documents, thinking through the why’s of projects, and proofing my deliverables more, but are I’d love to hear how others have adapted to a slower-paced job!

    1. H*

      I totally understand this. I previously worked at hospital on a psych unit and emergency dept and now I WFH 5 days a week…the difference is astounding. Are you taking breaks and lunch throughout your day? If not, you now have the time because your job is slower. I used to think “powering through” was the norm for a bit when I worked in a higher stress environment and deprived myself of breaks (I was also younger). Other than that, I say enjoy the slow pace and if you have the flexibility maybe leave early on particularly slow days when work is done efficiently and thoroughly? If you really want you could ask for additional projects but I think that is a gamble and might cause a more rushed and stressed pace again.

    2. HonorBox*

      I think just the fact that you’re processing this thought is a great step in the right direction. As H says above, taking breaks and making sure you’re stepping away from your desk for lunch, or at least stepping away from work if you’re having lunch at your desk, is a great step. Take some time to read up on industry news. Spend a little time doing some research to learn more about things in the background documents, subscribe to a couple of newsletters. And as weird as it may feel, take a few minutes from time to time to check in here or on other sites. Let your mind wander a bit. Not being hyper-focused all the time gives you opportunity to think through new ideas.

      1. M2RB*

        I agree with this – I have recently made this transition from high-stress, faster-paced jobs to something quite a bit less stressful. I use the free time to read up on my new industry (I’m an accountant, and while my accounting skills transferred easily, I don’t know a lot about the industry itself) and to work on my continuing education requirements.

        I also have time to experiment with process improvements: can I add/improve/expand formulas in Excel files to automate processes (to reduce the risk of manual input errors)? are there Excel features I want to learn more about?

        I am also working on cross-training with the coworkers in my department so that we have coverage when people are off work.

    3. a fever you can't sweat 0ut*

      wow – thank you for this. i just transitioned to a new job where i’m say focusing on 3 things instead of 10 and i’ve been feeling so odd. thank you for putting this down in writing.

  16. Wilting Plant*

    Coming here to ask if anyone else has read the book called Job Therapy by Tessa White? I am halfway through it and so far I like it. The biggest downside of it is that it seems to be written more for employees who are employed at large organizations. I have only ever worked for small businesses, which feels different in so many ways.

    I think my issue with work is that I have changed, but my job hasn’t. I am feeling rather lost in terms of what to do next. My field is small and other jobs are few and far between with a lot of competition. I don’t want to make a lateral move into another design-build firm because it would be more of the same. I am hesitant to freelance and start my own one-person company because I don’t want to have to make work my entire life. I want to work LESS with more flexibility, and it seems that people who set off on their own have the opposite experience. Has anyone set off on their own and been able to work 30 hours a week and still make money? My field is landscape design.

    1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      I haven’t read it, but it sounds really interesting and I had an audiobook credit I hadn’t used yet, so I think I’ll give it a try this weekend. I’m trying to figure out what I want to do next, so figuring out my work psychology might help with that.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      Thanks for the recommendation. Sounds like we are in similar straights – no advice, but you aren’t alone! <3

    3. Rinn*

      I’m a drafting technician with an architecture certificate. I worked for a design-build firm but am now on the engineering side. I am also thinking about whether I could freelance. So far CAD products seem really saturated online. Landscape might be a bit better in that it’s a bit more niche. I’m considering upping my skills with electrical drawings since I do those about 20% of the time currently. The need for those seems pretty endless. But with my current job I just have no spare time and I can’t afford to quit my day job to initiate such a plan.

    4. STEM Admin*

      I’m waiting on my yard plan from a freelance designer who specializes in native plants and pollinator gardens. I also specified cat-safe and edibles to the extent possible. She’s overwhelmed with requests and is charging for the consult and the plan. She has recommendations for landscapers who can do the actual work, and hopefully gets a finder fee from them if that’s the route I choose. Just another suggestion for a slight pivot into a growing field.

  17. JustaTech*

    Good Stuff!
    Let’s talk about the good things that happened at work this week, large or small.

    I’ll start: after weeks of working, the building finally got the HVAC problem fixed and it is no longer freezing on one floor (mine) and roasting on another – now it’s a perfectly reasonable 74F (reasonable because it is summer and it’s a very casual space so we can wear short pants if not shorts). Folks are thrilled to not have to wear fuzzy coats inside.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      We got our timetables for the upcoming school year and info about our return. Last year, we didn’t get it until about a week before returning, so it’s nice to have it a bit longer in advance so we can plan.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Got my first paycheck since my raise and finished a big project that I’ve been working on all summer!

    3. Watry*

      Someone in IT remembered I should be included in meetings about a major update to the software I’m in charge of!

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My fellow manager and I had an (attendance-optional) appreciation party for our teams yesterday, about 40% of the overall group showed up and they all really enjoyed it! Aside from pizza, cake and goody bags, we also had a great informative presentation from our EAP team, a plant swap, and my grandboss stopped by and spent some time talking to all the team members too, which they really appreciated. And I am now eating leftover cake for lunch.

    6. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      Last year I got assigned a nightmare client for their annual review and it was awful, but my boss had been talking about assigning them to me for their next review next month and I was really dreading it. But I found out this week that they’re probably going to be assigned to my teammate who has more specialized knowledge about one of their concerns instead! The weight that’s been lifted off my shoulders is amazing.

    7. BellaStella*

      HR where I work is finally listening to and acting on issues and supporting employees. I think we may see some changes soon.

    8. call me wheels*

      I have a job interview arranged and got contacted by several recruiters about some interesting jobs :)

    9. Lady Lessa*

      We are getting rid of lab hazardous waste today. They are almost finished packing it up. It was well over a year since I gave Purchasing the list of stuff that didn’t fit our normal hazardous waste profiles.

    10. Maleficent*

      My building finally got some of those filtered water fountains with the water bottle fillers! It’s so nice not to have to carry my own bottled water to work each week!

    11. Mostly Managing*

      My good thing this week is that I am on a week’s vacation and the expectation from my department is that I will not even look at emails until I’m back in the office.

      The official policy is that “nothing we do it life or death, and as long as you left things more or less in good shape you pick things up when you get back. And yes, of course it will take at least the first morning back just to work out what you missed. That’s normal!”

      It is nice to switch off. And paint my kids’ bedrooms!

    12. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I texted the colleague who manages our schedule to say I was having surgery in September and would be out at least two weeks and she texted back to say “I took you off the schedule. Let me know if you need more time. Thanks for everything you do! We appreciate you!”

      This is…not the response I’m accustomed to for time-off requests.

    15. Six Feldspar*

      We wrapped up a project this week and it’s not our problem for at least six months!

    16. AnonThisTime*

      We did annual reviews this week. My boss had great things to say about my work and we had a good conversation about things in general (though we do communicate pretty much daily so nothing was a surprise but it’s nice to hear the good stuff all at once). And my raise will be ~10%. That’s definitely on the high side. The only time I’ve had higher at this job is when it was also a promotion.

    17. allathian*

      I’m getting a new manager in September. I know her as a peer from an adjacent team although we’ve never worked closely together. We’re having a slight shift in the organization (three teams are merging into two and people get shifted around a bit) and my current manager decided not to apply for the position for personal reasons. The new manager has subbed for another manager before, but this will be her first FT managerial position. Together with my coworker who has the same job description as I do had a meeting with both the current and new managers and it went really well. The switchover/onboarding looks to be going really well, not least because this is a change both of them wanted. I’m feeling optimistic about the change.

  18. Guest*

    Group texts: My team started doing this about a month ago and I’m not a fan. Most of us are shift workers, so our phones blow up during our off hours and the majority of the texts are personal chit-chat. Does this happen in other workplaces?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I don’t share my personal cell number with coworkers, unless they are also my friends.

        2. BellaStella*

          Does your company have a data protection or GDPR policy or is there mention of appropriate sanctioned channels of communication ? If not can you bring this up as a risk? Also can you mute the texts and phone sounds and only respond in your shift? Or get a new number and not share it?

    2. Sunshine*

      Yes, we have an office WhatsApp group that I successfully avoided for 3 years before I had to be added for various reasons. I hate it. Blurs the line between work and social and I think there’s just too much risk of people forgetting they’re speaking to colleagues rather than friends (has happened a few times already). It’s a curse of some modern workplaces.

      At the moment I just keep the chat on mute but I’m going to try and remove myself from the group if it doesn’t impact my working relationships too badly. Is that an option for you?

    4. InSearchOf9000*

      We do, but I have notifs turned off after hours. If I am needed, they have a page through / call option, but the text chatter is optional as soon as I’m off shift.

    5. Lola*

      My team has a group on Whatsapp that is mostly used to share industry-relevant news or events, plus the occasional happy birthday message. I think it averages about 2 messages a week, and even then I put it on mute.
      Is your team’s group chat required by management, or used for business reasons? If the answer to both is no, just get out. If one of the answers is yes, I still recommend getting out, but inform your manager of the reasons why this is untenable to shift workers.

    6. The golden typewriter*

      It’s pretty common in fast casual. We don’t usually have chit chat though, it’s more passive aggressive reminders to not do stuff, and occasionally if someone needs their shift covered.
      There’s been a suggestion tossed around to have a no management group chat, but that’s probably not a good idea.

    7. Quinalla*

      No, folks talk in our Teams chats off hours sometimes, but no expectation of any reply. I would just mute the chat or ask if you can set up one for business only (mute outside your working hours) and one for personal and mute the personal.

      I like group texts only when it is clear what they are for. They can be great, but if folks just put everything in there, including conversation between just a couple people, clog up a work chat with a bunch of non-work stuff, etc. it SUCKS.

    8. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      It does depending on the team I’m assigned to. Different teams can have different vibes and depending on the phase of the project, we can have people working all the same shift or different shifts. Fortunately, most people are fairly good about keeping personal chat out of business chats. If we start to have an issue with people using it for personal chitchat, I mute the chat after hours. I usually tell others I will not be responsive until my next shift because this is also my personal phone and I can’t just turn it off.

      The group chats that drive me up the wall are business chats where everyone across multiple teams have to be included because it relates to HR or timekeeping. 99.9% of the chats are irrelevant to my team.

    9. BigLawEx*

      Can you get a Google number? I’ve had one for about 15 years. It’s what I give to people who don’t get my personal number.

      Only a few people have noticed I have an iPhone but show up green. For the inquisitive ones, I just shrug and pretend I can’t figure out iMessage.

  19. softcastle*

    I wanted to ask the advice of the comentariat on how to address some odd off-handed comments a coworker at my new job has occasionally made about her body.

    I started a new job a couple of monnths ago in product development role at a small apparel brand–think more in the lines of “activewear” and less “couture” (it’s a very casual environment, everyone is pretty local and relaxed, and the brand is size inclusive, so it’s not like The Devil Wears Prada or anything). My one coworker is very sweet and I largely enjoy working with her, but I’ve noticed that she has a habit of making odd, self-deprecating comments about her body or looks fairly regularly.

    For example, we were trying on samples of a jacket to ensure QC, and she says, “Man, I hate my body, I look like a teenager, everything looks disgusting on me. I wish I had curves.” Another example: our boss/owner does modeling for the products and we often use her photos for marketing purposes. After taking some product photos using our boss, my coworker exclaims, “Man, I wish I weren’t so ugly–nobody wants to see my ugly mug in these pictures.” And so on and so forth. It seems like she’s a bit insecure and these comments are her way of fishing for reassurance, but I’m REALLY not used to these kinds of comments in the workplace (my old job was Mega Corporate TM)

    The issue is…now she has started roping ME into her self-deprecation. Yesterday she wanted to take a video showing two of our employees modeling the products, and while she was setting up, she sighed and said, “We’re lucky we both aren’t hot enough to have to be recorded for stuff like this. Short, frumpy girls unite!” She genuinely didn’t mean it in a negative way–I think she thought she was being funny in a camaraderie way.

    I was…pretty shocked, and if I’m being honest, a bit hurt. I’m realistic–I know what I look like, but I’m good at my job regardless and I’ve never experienced commentary about them in the past. Do you have any suggestions on something that I could say in the moment to gently make it known I’m not comfortable being roped into her insecurities? To slightly complicate things, she genuinely is fairly reactive at work and has already had a couple of minor crying episodes in the office when presented with normal feedback from our manager, so I’m sensitive to hurting her feelings.

    1. MsM*

      “I really hate hearing you so down on yourself like this. What do you say to making this a no-negative self-talk zone?”

    2. Nicosloanica*

      Oh, I would shut this down immediately. She’s probably just acting up out of insecurity (some people also try to bond this way) but she’d need to keep my name out of her mouth. “I don’t want to talk about my body or anyone else’s bodies at work, and I don’t want you to make those kinds of comments to me either, thank you.”

    3. KnittingAtTheBaseballGame*

      Ugh, this situation sucks. I think a straightforward, “please don’t make comments about my body,” is appropriate in the moment.

      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        And I think it would be okay to have a big picture conversation with her about it now. Something like:

        “I was taken aback the other day when you made a comment about me being frumpy and I wasn’t ready to address it in the moment. It really upset me, and I would like to ask you not to make comments about my body or my appearance in the future. We’re a pretty body positive company and I personally feel like there’s some level of beauty to be found in everyone, so I really don’t like to hear people talking negatively about bodies. Can you try to hold off on doing that around me in the future?”

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          This is really good. A tweak to the last line, maybe: “I need to know this won’t keep happening and want to support you because I hear you saying negative things about your own body too. That’s hard to hear. How would you like me to address it in the moment?”

          1. Cj*

            I would say this to a friend, but not to this coworker. OP wants to shut this down, not become this co-workers therapist.

    4. Torvil and Dean*

      This woman isn’t sweet and I don’t think you need to be sensitive to hurting her feelings. She didn’t show the same consideration for yours.

      1. Guest*

        I agree. Hearing someone speak ill of their own looks is depressing, but commenting like that about a coworker is WAY out of line.

        1. Blue Pen*

          It is totally out of line, and I’m not at all condoning this kind of behavior at all, but speaking as someone who grew up battling EDs and body dysmorphia, that disordered thinking and behavior can come to a point where “body” (yours and others) is the framework that all your perspective is filtered from. Again, I’m not at all condoning the coworker. She shouldn’t have said that. But Diet Culture is a powerful drug, and you can forget rightful boundaries and behaviors.

          1. Blue Pen*

            ETA: because you’re so consumed with how you and your body looks, you forget that others aren’t consumed by these thoughts.

          2. KDWho*

            Agree. And growing up in a household where all the adults spoke about themselves (and each other, and all of us kids) in the same manner as the coworker, as a young adult I didn’t realize that the “body” framework wasn’t universal and wasn’t culturally expected or okay. When I talked about myself that way, I thought my behavior was socially savvy and I was positioning myself as friendly to the in-crowd (yes, it was the ’90s!). The first person who gently but firmly said to me, “hey, you’re my friend, and I wish you wouldn’t talk about my friend that way,” opened my eyes and gave me a tremendous gift of perspective.

            1. Awkwardness*

              “hey, you’re my friend, and I wish you wouldn’t talk about my friend that way,”

              I like this one a lot.

              I have a friend who was cheated on with a younger woman and does a lot of self-deprecating talk. It is really difficult to listen to and I am struggling how to address this best. This is a direction I haven’t tried so far.

      2. tabloidtained*

        I think we can be generous and assume that sometimes people just say something silly or rude and that doesn’t mean you need to reevaluate their whole character or stop being a considerate person yourself.

        1. Cordelia*

          we can, but when someone says something rude and hurtful to us it is ok to point it out and ask them not to do it again.

          1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

            Right, but the top of this comment chain says OP is wrong to call her coworker “sweet.” That’s what the comment you’re replying to is referring to. She can be a sweet person with serious body issues who doesn’t understand how her comments affect other people. The two things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. People contain multitudes.

            1. Cordelia*

              oh yes, I lost that in the comment chain. I definitely don’t think her whole character needs to be re-evaluated, but I do think it’s ok to let her know how her comments affect people.

        2. Cookie Monster*

          I find that happens a LOT in the comments on AAM (and I say this as a big fan of AAM and the comments section). As soon as one person (LW or commenter) says “My coworker is great but does this one negative thing,” a lot of people immediately jump to “well your coworker obviously isn’t great if she’s doing that.”

          And, it’s like, does no one have friends, family members or coworkers who are generally nice people but have slip-ups, blind spots, bad days, etc.?

          1. allathian*

            Absolutely. But it also seems common in advice columns that people write “My SO’s so great and sweet and loving, there’s just this one thing that bothers me…” and then they go on to list a number of abusive behaviors.

            And let’s face it, no matter how great a person is otherwise, sometimes that one fault in their character or behavior is enough to make them a not great person overall, if it’s something that makes you feel like you can’t trust them to behave appropriately.

            I also think that the badmouthing self-talk has to shut down now. It was bad enough when the coworker was just talking about herself, but involving the LW was inexcusable. If that happened to me with a peer, I’d make it perfectly clear that their attempt at bonding failed with me. I’d try to avoid them as much as possible and stick to business when I couldn’t.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Ugh, I’m sorry your colleague said that to you. You could just go the straightforward route of “Please don’t comment on my body” or a classic “Wow, that was rude.” Like you, I’m realistic about how I look but someone else saying it to your face is still incredibly off-putting and she should know that. You’re not hurting your feelings by asking her to stop commenting on your body; if she’s upset about it, it’s not because you said anything cruel or rude to her, because you won’t have.

      Is there any chance your boss has overheard her making the self-depricating comments about her own body? If yes, can she talk to your colleague about it? I get that she’s insecure, but “Wow, I’m so ugly and gross” type stuff at work is still out of bounds, and as a size-inclusive company I assume that this kind of negative body talk is broadly not in the spirit of what the company is trying to achieve.

    6. Morgan Proctor*

      The first part of this is whatever, you can ignore that kind of thing. But you need to draw a line when she starts insulting you. You can be really direct, “Don’t say that about me ever again,” or purposefully indirect to make her uncomfortable and hopefully shame her into not doing it again, “What do you mean by that?” and just keep repeating versions of that until she backs off, “I don’t understand, why did you say that? Can you clarify what you mean by not hot enough?”

      Honestly if she does it again, you should say something to your boss, that’s borderline harassment, doesn’t matter if she means it to be or not.

      1. Awkwardness*

        The first part of this is whatever, you can ignore that kind of thing. But you need to draw a line when she starts insulting you.

        I think OP is also within their rights to address the first part. Regular negativity, even if self-deprecating, is wearing a relationship down no matter how much one tries to ignore it. I do not assume that this is the intention of the co-worker. So it would be kind to give this kind of feedback.

      2. Mad Scientist*

        As someone who would find it difficult to be direct in this scenario, I like the suggestion of playing dumb and asking her what she means! It’s a common approach to dealing with racist jokes and things like that as well. “I don’t get it. What do you mean by that?”

        And then OP can also follow up with something like “I actually don’t view myself that way at all. I’m confused by why you would say that.”

      3. Observer*

        You can be really direct, “Don’t say that about me ever again,” or purposefully indirect to make her uncomfortable and hopefully shame her into not doing it again,

        Ugh. No.

        Don’t try to shame her into anything. It’s a bad idea in any case. But in a case like this, where shame is almost certainly playing a big part, it’s especially bad.

        Sure, this needs to be shut down. But this is not the way.

        1. Aquatic*

          Also, what she means is clear. She’s not trying to get away with implying something; she already said it.

    7. different seudonym*

      I would say that her thought process is more likely to be simple than complex. When she says “I’m ugly,” the most likely reason is that she feels ashamed of her appearance. That’s all. She also probably finds it normal to bond over body shame, and assumes everyone has it. And from what you describe she has low self-awareness and CRAP boundaries. So in short she has no idea how she’s coming across, no plan behind what she’s saying, and issues that go way too deep for work conversation.
      I think you’re on very firm ground if you just blandly redirect to a work matter–“you look fine to me, is the neck seam lying flat on this prototype?” “I like how I look, but I’m glad I don’t have to model.”

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Yes, honestly when someone says these things about themselves, it’s a common assumption that they’re “digging for compliments” but there’s a bunch of things going on that aren’t quite that. Even if the response is exactly what she’s seeking, I’d say it’s more like she’s anxious and seeking reassurance through a bad habit of thought / speech – not that she glorifies in the praise from false modesty – or she’s trying to lower the bar / appease people (“I know I’m unattractive, I’m not putting on airs here, don’t hurt me!”). Still, she can learn not to do it around you and certainly not to include you in her negative self talk.

    8. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      You’re allowed to say “Please don’t make comments like that about me” and not worry about being gentle or eggshell-walking her emotional outbursts. If she wants to broadcast her own insecurity, that’s her choice, but it’s not OK for her to put that on you.

    9. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      “Please don’t make comments about my body, thanks!”

      If she has an inappropriate emotional response to that, fine. You don’t need to comfort her or manage her emotions. Like if she starts crying, say in a calm tone, “I’ll step away for a few minutes so you can compose yourself.” And do it.

    10. Cordelia*

      wow, what she said about you was pretty rude! I’m not sure you need to tiptoe around her feelings quite this much when she comes out with things like that. I’d probably go with a “wow, ok!” and a surprised look the first time, but if it happened again I’d say “no more comments about my body, thankyou” and then refuse to discuss it further. I’d just ignore the comments she makes about her own body, and just not engage

    11. My Brain is Exploding*

      How about, “You know, I should have said this before, but I’m really uncomfortable discussing people’s looks and bodies. And it’s all so subjective. So would you please stop?” This as a first try if you want to start with something softer.

    12. Katydid*

      Depending on your personality, sometimes I find countering it with something over the top can shut it down. Something like “Speak for yourself, I am simply too hot to be included in these videos!” or “Excuse me? that’s the kind of negativity I don’t allow in my day” It can kind of lighten the mood, while calling out that we are not doing this here and I will not participate.

    13. Rainy*

      I think when you didn’t push back about her prior demeaning comments about herself she started feeling comfortable including you.

      If someone said something similar to me I’d probably be so shocked the first time that I wouldn’t be able to muster a response, but the second time, depending on how fed up I was, I’d either say something like “speak for yourself, I’m fabulous” or, if I wanted to shut it down, I’d say, “I don’t think judgements like that are constructive or funny. Leave me out of your put-downs in future, thanks.”

      If they say “oh I was just kidding” or “can’t you take a joke,” the best response is a completely straight face while you say something like “I don’t see the humor.”

    14. Ellis Bell*

      I’ve had a Negative Nelly coworker like this, being downright abusive and disgusted about herself and even right up to putting a dividing line between the women who are “hot” and “Oh the rest of us are just normal, yeah” (I think my response was “No I am totally smoking, actually”) Calling people frumpy is so, so rude, but I totally get what you mean by it just being a part of her odd worldview. I had quite a lot of success with the following (She doesn’t do it anymore and invited me to her wedding were she actually seemed brimming with confidence and gave me a nice compliment too): “Whoah, Nelly is a friend of mine! Please don’t talk about her like that!” or “Whoah, what did you just call yourself? that is super harsh. (don’t actually make this into a compliment or comment on her body though)”. If she just says anything about you and your body, just politely disagree even if you’re fibbing or covering up a lack of confidence: “No I look great, actually” or “I don’t judge women’s bodies like that, I like variety” or “I’m glad I’m not on camera but I disagree about why” just anything that is just kinda “nope! disagree!”

      1. DefinitiveAnn*

        “You may think I look short and dumpy, but I think I am a goddess. I prefer my way of thinking.”

    15. Hyaline*

      This one is extra fun because she’s not just commenting on bodies in a diet culture/weight trope way, but she seems to be commenting on her entire self-image–“frumpy” transcends body type here IMO. So “I don’t want to discuss bodies” might not get through to her the way it would someone ONLY commenting on weight and body shape.

      I feel like the options are “awkward but straightforward callout” or “boundless positivity about one’s own self-confidence” or maybe both in tandem. For the first, at some time that doesn’t seem particularly fraught, interrupt her and just state “You know, I don’t like hearing you put yourself down, and I definitely don’t think of myself as frumpy. Can we please avoid negative self-image-talk?” Yeah, she might cry or feel bad but also…she might stop. For the latter, I would try refusing to engage with the negativity while peppering your conversations with positivity and see if it gets the message across that you’re not interested in putting yourself or others down. When she says something negative, don’t feed into it (“oh no you’re not!” is feeding into it; confused head tilt followed by “I think these boxes go over there” redirects). And find ways to drop positivity about yourself and others in your conversations if it feels natural/normal to you; I’d focus on stuff outside of just looks, personally. “I finished my presentation prep and I’m excited to give it on Friday!” “I found this dress in my closet this weekend and forgot how much I like it!” “Your work on the new flowchart was really great!” “You choose such great handbags, I love how fun that print is!”

    16. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I had a colleague like this who did the bonding-deprecating thing about neither of us having curves. It’s not a sensitive spot for me (anymore), but I still didn’t care for it.

      I think I said something like “hey, I like both of us too much to be here for that kind of talk!” in a light tone, and she laughed and didn’t do it again about me. She did make a few comments about herself after that and I did the same thing “hey, you’re being mean about one of my nice colleagues again!” Success varied, but I felt better saying it.

    17. spiriferida*

      I think, if you’re willing to say that at work, the comment she made yesterday would be a good chance to say “hey, saying that about me hurt, please don’t do that again.” Whether or not that stops her comments about her own body, you’ve got grounds to draw the line there.

      If you’d rather go for a more impersonal tactic, I think you might have grounds to say something about trying to keep a body-positive environment! Especially because the brand is a size inclusive one.

    18. Rinn*

      Is she a histrionic? My MIL is and she regularly ropes me into her self-deprecating fishing comments and I don’t know anyone else who does that.

    19. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve found that “let’s unite in our flaws as I see them!” attitude is kind of a boundary test–if people go in with them, they see you as an ally in this mindset.

      Which isn’t to say I don’t find it, frankly, quite rude. I obviously can’t control what a person thinks about their body, or mine, but I don’t need morale craters so said person can establish some kind of solidarity. So even if a person privately thinks I’m so dumpy I should model for Heavy Earth Movers Magazine, they can please keep it to themselves.

      So I would be kind, but not overly sensitive, when asking her to knock it off (her feelings are like a fainting plant, but mine aren’t?) Something along the lines of “I don’t think either of us are bad looking at all! Let’s agree to keep things positive at work, okay?”

    20. samwise*

      Wow, Griselda, that really hurts.

      And maybe add: Don’t comment on my body or my looks ever.

    21. RagingADHD*

      “I know you meant it as a joke, and you talk like this about yourself all the time, but I really don’t appreciate you calling me frumpy or making comments about my appearance. It’s hurtful.”

  20. NMitford*

    I have to give annual performance review feedback for someone who gave me negative feedback on my recent review. We are coworkers with no reporting relationship.

    His feedback to me: I don’t do things quickly enough sometimes. My response: I will literally get off a Zoom with him and the rest of the team, take a quick bathroom break, and find that he’s already summarized the meeting notes in Slack in the five freaking minutes I stepped away from my laptop because I allegedly didn’t do it in a timely faship.

    His feedback to me: I don’t have all the SharePoint skills I need for my position, so he has to do it. My response: I’ve taken classes from Udemy for SharePoint, but he’s the company’s SharePoint administrator and he 1) has to give me the appropriate rights and 2) needs to show me some specific information on how he’s configured our SharePoint sites.

    My boss dinged me on my review based on his feedback and I got a lower rating than expected (and no freaking raise as a result). How do I provide appropriate feedback to his guy without sounding like I’m still totally salty about what he did to me.

    And, yes, I’m starting to look for other jobs, but in the meantime providing this type of peer feedback is mandatory and I’ll be hunted down till I do it.

    1. Benihana scene stealer*

      I’d say just be honest and don’t try to retaliate, even subtly. Without knowing more about the review/raise process, I’d say your boss was also kind of shitty for basing the ding/no raise on one person’s feedback.

    2. Sunshine*

      Would something like this be an option? The wording is very rough – not great in places – but maybe a springboard for you?

      [Name] does not always provide team members with the information they require to perform tasks he has requested. For example, when requesting ABC update to Sharepoint, he does not first check that he has provided the relevant user permissions to allow the update to take place. On being asked to provide those permissions [Name] is [combative/unresponsive/whatever the appropriate adjective is]. This makes actioning tasks in a timely fashion difficult.

      Or

      [Name] appears frustrated if he does not receive information/documents/etc immediately, even when a separate timeline has been established. For example, it is standard to receive a summary/minutes/etc following a meeting within [X hours/days etc] but [Name] often circumvents established channels/responsibilities etc. because he wants these delivered more quickly that agreed upon. [Name] does not appear to understand that he needs to communicate changing priorities rather than simply doing someone’s work for them.

    3. MagicEyes*

      Are you prepared to be absolutely honest in his review? He’s impatient and not good at teamwork. He doesn’t trust you to follow through on things you’ve said you would do. He’s not giving you access or information that you’ve asked him for. You can be honest without letting your feelings affect what you say.

    4. Alex*

      This is why I hate coworker “reviews” as part of the performance reviews, which my company also does.

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I might mention a lack of patience, reasonable expectations, and sharing of information. Give specific examples like you did here.

      This guy sounds like a jerk.

    6. HonorBox*

      “Coworker is regularly impatient and is unwilling to defer to others to take on responsibilities. He will summarize meeting notes within five minutes of a meeting ending, but is not asking others to step in, and is expressing concern because others didn’t do it as quickly.”

      “Coworker has set unreasonable expectations around programs for which he is administrator. He expects me to have specific SharePoint skills, but has not configured SharePoint to allow me to have the rights needed and is unwilling to share specific information on how SharePoint has been configured.”

    7. Busy Middle Manager*

      Holy Moly, unless your job is “Jr Sharepoint Admin” this is beyond ridiculous!!!!!

      You could factually state back:

      “not given time to do tasks”
      “not given access to portions of programs I need to meet requirements”

      You could also throw in something subjective, as his are, “does basic parts of other peoples’ jobs so we never get a chance to sink or swim in them” or “has unrealistic expectations about how long tasks should take, doing them so quick that they’re likely to be error prone and imcomplete.”

      1. BikeWalkBarb*

        I’d only say that very last bit if his speedy notes actually are error prone and incomplete. The bigger issue to me is “has unrealistic expectations about how long tasks should take, and rather than setting a specific timeline or allowing me to manage my own time to get it done, jumps in and does it himself, then makes negative comments about my abilities when I didn’t have the chance to do the work.”

  21. Burned Out Banker*

    Is it fair to only give work from home privileges to parents? My company boasts about being “family first,” which is great for parents, but kind of leaves out the non-parents. I share an in-office suite with my boss and two coworkers. My boss frequently works from home but she’s an executive so I get it. Coworker 1 is currently working from home because her daughter has a dentist appointment later this morning, and works from home probably once every 2-3 weeks because of a sick kid, needing to take a kid to practice, etc. Coworker 2 got to work from home for a full week because her daycare provider was on vacation, has worked from home because of sick kids, and got to work from home for 5 days when she had covid earlier this year. I’ve also seen other coworkers in my building work from home because of kid-related things.

    I don’t have an issue with that but every time I’ve requested to work from home, I’ve been denied. I asked to work from home for 2 days when I was having some plumbing work done because I live alone and there was no one home to let the workers in and out or answer questions they may have, and was told we “don’t really do work from home.” I had a large project I was working on that required me to stay late and asked if I could work from home on it so I didn’t have to drive 30 minutes home so late, and was told no. I had covid two weeks ago and was told I needed to use PTO for it, but I only had one day available, so I took one day off and came to work (masked) with covid for several days.

    Parents are also given the flexibility to leave during the day for school functions, take long lunches if their kids have appointments, or leave early and/or come in late for kid-related things, but I’m not allowed to do so because I “have to be here in case someone needs something because Boss and both coworkers will be leaving early because of kid commitments.” It makes it hard to plan my own things when I’m the one without kids. I’ve tried to ask my boss about it, but I was only told “we don’t really do work from home,” and then later that day Coworker 2 tells us she’s working from home because kids. Has anyone else experienced this?

    1. Wilting Plant*

      Yes I have experienced this. Coworkers who have my job title work from home for kid reasons quite often, I have to beg and have a good reason to do the same. Other coworkers with different job titles have full time work from home privileges, but that will never be extended to me. It’s really frustrating and demoralizing.

      2. Tio*

        Parent is not a legally protected class, so as long as they are treating all the parents of the same race and gender equally, probably not illegal. But hella unfair.

        1. H*

          but they aren’t treating all employees (parents or not) the same and are allowing some people to wfh in one situation and not allowing it when others have the same situation…

          1. Tio*

            I understand. But that’s not illegal. It’s only illegal to treat someone differently based on a protected feature. If they say “Everyone born in March gets the entire month off, and no one else gets any days off” that’s actually legal. It would be an a-hole move and probably everybody not born in March should quit, but technically, legal.

        2. Cj*

          in this case, it’s actually that not being a parent is not a protected class. we should probably be referring to parental status, to cover both sides of the issue.

      3. Justme, The OG*

        It’s completely legal to give different perks to different people as long as it’s not discrimatory. And as was said, being a parent is not a protected class.

    4. Rebecca*

      “Boss, I’d like to push back on that statement. Joe worked from home for two days last week, Margie worked from home on Tuesday, and Caroline worked from home on Wednesday. We all have occasional outside commitments that really benefit from the flexibility afforded by work from home days. I would really like to have that same flexibility to meet the plumber/avoid going home late/avoid coming in with COVID and getting people sick. Are you sure it’s not possible?”

      Leave the kids out of if, and make it about how to treat everyone equitably.

      1. Csethiro Ceredin*

        I like this script. It gives the boss a chance to reconsider if it was just reflexive… which I hope they do because that is unnecessarily unequal and will just cause resentment.

      2. Quinalla*

        Yup, was looking for a reply like this before I added one. Keep the preferential treatment out of the conversation (but you are right to be frustrated and I say that as a parent), just point out that people ARE working from home on occasion and you want to do the same.

    5. H*

      and HR has said this was okay? this sounds like possible discrimination…and also quite inconsistent…is there an actual written policy around intermittent telework and requesting wfh?

      1. Burned Out Banker*

        My boss is the head of HR :) :) :) The employee handbook says “employees may be permitted to work remotely” and that we have to abide by the remote work agreement, which only says it has to be approved by your manager. Which my manager doesn’t approve.

        1. HonorBox*

          I’d point out the discrepancies, but leave the kid aspect out.
          I think I’d probably start with the COVID situation. Policies aren’t being fairly applied. If someone is allowed to work from home because they’re ill and shouldn’t be in the office, that should be applied across the board, or not at all. You were unfairly penalized when you were ill and there needs to be some standard across the board.

          If there’s pushback, I think I might raise the kid thing in a very narrow way. If someone is home with a sick kid, they’re going to be distracted. That’s fine if boss is OK with it, but there’s really no difference in that as a potential distraction and plumbers as a potential distraction.

          1. PotatoRock*

            Yeah, that stood out to me – it sounds like there is something beyond just the kids if some folks can work from home due to covid, and you cannot. It sounds like your manager is doing more of a : Josh, Kelly and Andrea can work from home occasionally when Life Happens (which might be kid reasons or other reasons) but OP cannot. Ask your boss about that – or just starting from the policy, that occasional wfh is ok, ask what those kinds of occasions would be and how to proceed.

            It could be your manager just cuts parents a lot of slack, but it could also be a different issue : are you newer than others, does your job require in-person coverage or collaboration in a different way, is your manager concerned about your performance or productivity more broadly, etc

        3. M2*

          Have you worked from home before? Did you get as much work done as when you’re in the office? How are your performance reviews?

          I would start with Covid because you should not have come in with Covid even with a mask. My team has lots of sick leave, but I understand if someone says, “I used two sick days for Covid but I feel better now, so can I work from home?” I always say yes for the remaining 3 days as long as they actually work and are known as good performers. Many people just use the 5 full days as my organization still gives 5 covid days each year (up until last year they gave 10) on top of very generous paid sick leave. People use it and many people wfh on days 3-5. No one is allowed to come in until at least day 6 and must have been fever or symptom free for 24 hours and are asked to wear a mask until day 10. Many people end up wfh until day 7 and that is totally fine too. I rather them not give people Covid!

          As a parent (and I am biased because I have kids, but have a sibling who is childless by choice) if I had to take off every time my kids were sick I would never ever work. This last year was totally brutal with how much stuff came home from school (and mainly because people were sending sick kids to school).

          This isn’t to say someone who doesn’t have kids should not get the wfh benefit say if they have Covid or have to leave work early for an appointment, but it most likely won’t be 1 for 1 because kids get sick so often.

          I put the first part in because there are some people on my team and in other departments who are not given the WFH availability like others, mainly because they have been shown not to get the same amount of work done while at home. We are hybrid so technically you can get 1-2 wfh days (depending on department). But if they have a certain level on their performance reviews they cannot wfh, per company policy.

          I have someone on my team (with kids) who I feel is taking advantage, so I have had to have a talk with them 3x recently about how they cant come and go whenever they want or say they are wfh and actually not get much done. If there’s an emergency let me know, and of course you can go (even for a plumbing issue, totally get it) but you can’t just up and leave at 12 noon every Friday for a month (I was on work travel so did not know this happened for 2 weeks I was gone) and say you were working all day when I can easily see you were not. I found it very disrespectful.

          So, I would talk to your boss about it but use facts and start with Covid, don’t get emotional about it. I wouldn’t bring up the kids, I would bring up other employees are allowed to do it, so can you understand why you aren’t given the same benefit? Maybe there will be an answer or maybe you will realize you need to job search or maybe a lightbulb will go off and you will get more wfh availability for emergencies. GL

          1. Burned Out Banker*

            I’ve never been allowed to work from home. My performance reviews have been fine and nothing would indicate I shouldn’t be allowed to work from home. I started in 2022, so I missed the worst of the pandemic. I wouldn’t have come in when I had covid if I had a choice – I only had one day of time off (we have combined vacation/sick leave, and I used most of my time off last month for a vacation) and we aren’t really allowed to do unpaid time off. I asked HR what our covid protocol was and the response was “what do CDC guidelines say?” I responded that CDC says “someone with Covid can go back to normal activities when symptoms have been getting better for at least 24 hours and no fever, then to mask for the next 5 days,” and got a thumbs up in return. So I took the next day off because I was still feeling bad, but my symptoms started to improve and I had no fever so I went back to work with a mask because I can’t afford to miss out on several days’ pay. I don’t even mind that parents get flexibility but it’s frustrating to not have flexibility for my own things.

        4. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

          Do you have a grandboss? Someone in your company needs to be made aware that the head of HR is not applying the company’s policies equitably.

    6. Master P*

      This is the worst. Whatever the parents get, should be the standard for everyone. I understand we need to provide flexibility to parents, but sometimes y’all, the kid needs can be excessive. Get help.

      1. M2*

        What kind of babysitter wants to watch a sick child and get sick themselves?

        I have friends who are both surgeons (husband and wife) and they hired a nanny to watch their kids and the nanny comes even when the kids are sick but the nanny gets paid a ton 6 figures and OT, excellent benefits, vacation, sick leave, etc. She also doesnt live with them, but has her own room in case she works late or comes early. When the parents both get called in (they work at different hospitals) for an emergency surgery and it is 4PM and their 6 year old has only 2 hours of aftercare left and their 3 year old is with the nanny, they know their kids will be fine. But those people make 7 figures each and can pay to have excellent care. Most people can’t afford that and with Covid and all the masking, the last two years kids have been getting sick and more sick from simple things an alarming rate.

        Last year my child had a cough that was it they were tested for everything, and I thought maybe they had asthma, nope, for 7 weeks, a cough! We kept them home from school the first week thinking they had something and I brought them in to get tested since our home covid was negative. Luckily the school nurse said because they had no fever they could go back t school, but the pediatrician said they had seen more and more of this since Covid, it taking children longer to get over simple viruses and infections.

        If you have more than 1 child it will pass to the next child most likely 2-5 days later, so once one kid is better, the next kid will come down with something. I have friends with 3 kids and from November-April one or more of their children were home from school or daycare almost every since day. I couldn’t believe it when she said but their kids got: Covid, flu, RSV, Strep (3x), rhino virus, pink eye, stomach bug, lice, foot and mouth, croup, bronchitis, impetigo, cold, and other stuff. Each of the 3 kids got most of this and adults got some of it too.

    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      No, this sucks. I wouldn’t actually frame it as a work-from-home situation because it *does* sounds like you “don’t really do work from home”, i.e. no one is doing it every single week for a consistent number of days. What your workplace seems to have is a ton of flexibility for parents and parents only, and that can sometimes mean working from home but also means a lot of flexibility in start/end times, lunch duration, etc.

      I’d be curious how they’d react if you were a caregiver and needed to leave early to attend someone else’s medical appointment instead of Timmy’s school play.

      If I brought it up at all (vs leaving), I’d probably frame it as a “life admin” issue where everyone else has flexibility to manage their households during at least part of the workday, but you’re not being afforded the same opportunities like when you have a plumber coming by.

    8. CommanderBanana*

      Honestly? I’d call her on it in the moment, but that’s just me. The next time she says that we “don’t really do work from home,” you can point out that you do, in fact, do work from home. And I’d stop asking her to WFH and start telling her I’m going to.

      This is a huge YMMV situation, obviously, but your boss is lying to your face.

    9. Head Sheep Counter*

      That’s gross and folks wonder why there isn’t improvement in these areas.

      I’d either find a new job or make up a child as you are clearly not worth as much as the folks with children. More seriously, point out the discrepancy at the time it happens. Leave the parental aspect out (as my snark has a grain of truth… they value parents over you). Point it out repeatedly and don’t be available for the extra work.

    10. Former Admin Turned PM*

      My sister (widowed and child-free) and I (married with three kids, who are now young adults living with me) work for the same org and, we both say it is absolutely not fair. “Family first” should also account for taking care of aging parents or grandparents, which often falls to the single children/grandchildren. Married people are more likely to have flexibility with their childcare (i.e., there is potentially another parent to split the doc appointments and school events). Saying “we don’t work from home” is clearly false, so maybe you can play dumb when the bosses say that “Oh, since you always provide the WFH option for [name] for her non-work situations, I thought the policy was in place.” I know people highlight when they are discriminated against for having children- being mommytracked and all- but discrimination on your child-bearing status is just as wrong.

      If you had to use PTO for your COVID, the parents in the group should have to as well. There is clear discrimination based on family status and that’s totally unacceptable

      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        “Family first” should also apply to families of one, like OP. A person with a spouse is more likely to be able to figure out someone to stay home and wait for the plumber, because there’s a whole entire extra adult human in the household who can take on some of the responsibility, and usually a whole entire additional income to absorb some of the costs if someone needs to miss work and doesn’t have enough paid time to cover it.

        This may be my bias as a committed spinster, but single people navigating things on their own that their coworkers often have the help and support of a spouse to deal with are worthy of workplace flexibility.

    11. Bast*

      Is everyone doing the same job/do they have the same title/same boss? Husband has a job where it is largely up to the individual manager to determine WFH policies (which sucks, because frankly, 90% of this job can be done successfully from home). His particular department head has decided that no one can WFH, but they can use their vacation or sick time. He has a good deal of vacation/sick, so that isn’t the point, but while he would have to use sick time for say, a couple of days out with the flu, Jane in Different Department would get to WFH with the flu, because her department head has no issue with it. It’s pretty unfair and crappy for no reason, just because his boss has a butts in seats mentality.

      The only reason I ask this is because different people have seemed to be approved for non-child related things, such as getting Covid. Do you report to a different person, or have a different title that they can use to justify having you stay? Like for example, well, Coworker 1 and 2 are Network Engineers and you’re Help Desk, and only the Engineers can WFH?

      In my experience, the only time we have had issues with people WFH is when they say they are and then disappear and not do anything all day, so management will ban them from WFH OR certain positions that just did not allow for it (reception, usually, due to the nature of the job).

      If they really are picking and choosing favorites to WFH while others can’t for no real reason, that’s pretty crap. “Family first” doesn’t just mean kids.

    12. I Have RBF*

      Oh, hell no! I would be gone from there so fast it would make your head spin.

      You are being used and abused for the sake of the parents. You get no slack or flexibility, even when you have Covid!!, while you are also expected to pick up the slack for the parents. This is a non-parent’s nightmare.

      You are being discriminated against because you don’t have kids.

      Run.

    13. Rinn*

      This sucks. I have three kids. But I’m going to say it: there are definitely people taking way more than their share of this provision. And making others look greedy if they ask for any.

      I’m in a fully on-site job with extremely low PTO and it’s unbearable. In my previous job despite the fact that the person who hired me gave me the approval to WFH when I needed to, it got overruled later. But that didn’t stop two of my coworkers who each had only one kid from calling out or working from home constantly while also somehow make me look bad and forcing me to be the “someone has to be at the office if everyone else is out” person.

      So yeah it really sucks that people can’t moderate their use and consider other people for even a second.

    14. goddessoftransitory*

      This sounds right out of “Morale/coworker harmony Bust Up 101.” What better way to cultivate resentment and an exodus of employees?

      And frankly, even if people don’t have kids, that doesn’t mean they don’t have family obligations! To parents, siblings, spouses, and so on. This whole enshrinement and disingenuous deflecting around an issue they clearly don’t want to work on isn’t going to make for a happy or productive workplace.

  22. JoAnna*

    Alison often talks about pushing back as a group agains unfair policies. My question is, what does that look like in practice?

    I’ve been at my company for a year. The company only offers 5 paid sick days per year (and they only offer that because it’s required by state law). Recently my manager sent out a reminder email re sick leave policies, and it had the reminder that unpaid time off will never be allowed for any reason. This was news to me, as I’d requested and been approved for an unpaid day off in my probationary period (my birthday).

    I asked him for clarification, using the hypothetical that I only had three sick days left for the rest of the year, and what would happen if I got a bad case of COVID and had to be out for five days?

    He said that the remaining two days would be unpaid and would count as unexcused absences per the attendance policy – meaning we could get written warnings or even fired if we had too many tardies/absences.

    I think this is extremely unfair, and I’m willing to bet most of my coworkers do, too. In addition, five days per year of sick time is not enough, especially for a company that claims to value work life balance and mental health.

    So what do I do? My coworkers and I all work different shifts and some are permanently remote. How do we organize a pushback?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      In my dream world you unionize, if I’m being honest. It doesn’t sound like these are policies they don’t realize suck or aren’t seeing the impact of. They know they suck!

      1. Nicosloanica*

        But to answer your question – let’s say it’s a bit more minor, like they changed the closing hour to 7 and that doesn’t work well for you. If you ask around and find that all or most of your coworkers feel the same way, you could request a meeting with your boss or the decision maker and all of you come to the meeting. You would have a pre-scripted request and have pre-agreed on who would deliver it / how it would be delivered. “We’re here because the new closing time is causing us a lot of difficulty in X or Y way. We’d like to talk about ways to mediate these issues on the staff.” By showing up all together, you’re making it clear this isn’t just one troublemaker’s problem that they could solve by getting rid of that person, which honestly is a common reaction to a complaint that the leadership doesn’t want to hear. In theory, they can’t fire or penalize every single one of you.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      I want to remind you and everyone else that even if you aren’t unionized, concerted actions are federally protected. You get your coworkers together, discuss what you’re going to say and who is going to say it, find time on everyone’s calendars, and do a big zoom meeting with your boss to say that you don’t agree with this policy and want it to change.

      Let’s all say it together: “These actions are protected by Section 7 of the NLRA.”

    3. H*

      so I PRN at a local hospital and about a year ago amidst people leaving and expectations being ridiculous the prn staff and full time staff both wrote and signed letters to upper management regarding pay and it forced upper management to do a market analysis of pay and I went from making mid 30s/hour to $43/hr and they had to have a meeting where they listened to us…they were not happy but we had numbers. start with people you trust and go from there.

        1. FLuff*

          PRN = as needed.

          Usually for work it means contracted. You might get paid per shift or per hour. It is pretty common for many positions in healthcare.

          1. Pine Tree*

            Thanks. I work in government so we have a ton of acronyms. I try not to use them when talking to non-government people. I wish other people would not use subject-matter-specific acronyms when talking to external people.

    4. Cookie Monster*

      What others have said, but as far as everyone working different shifts, logically some people are just going to have to come in during their time off to either meet as a team and discuss this situation and/or be a part of the group that talks to management.

    5. Former Admin Turned PM*

      You could also rock old school and do a letter/memo with your concerns that is signed by all of the people who are willing to push back. [since different shifts means that a synchronous meeting would be challenging]. It can all be electronic signatures and send via email to the powers-that-be with all parties on the email.

    6. M2*

      5 days is nothing. Get together as a group and see if you can pushback, but I would look for a new job.

      Do some research in the group, give people tasks, on the fair market sick days in your area or for what you do, or national average or something and go from there.

      I can understand being more stringent during probationary period (did you just start a job) since you are still learning the ropes and such, but taking one day here or there should not be a big issue. I am sorry and hope you as a group can get change!

      1. RC*

        5 days isn’t even enough for one bout of covid (I know someone who last I heard was on his 10th day of positive rapids, and the first one was already 2 days after symptom onset)

        I’d say appeal to their sense of decency at keeping communicable diseases from spreading, but I think unionizing is likely better. Or can you maybe lobby your state legislators for more mandated sick leave?

    7. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      Is your workplace covered by FMLA? Because if it is, this is just straight up illegal. They’re not required to pay you for time you’re out sick beyond what your state requires, but if they’re covered by FMLA, they are legally not allowed to fire you being sick.

      1. TheBunny*

        Ummmm…that’s not what FMLA is. Yes it provides time of for personal health reasons, but you don’t get to be on FMLA by just saying that you are. There’s a process, and approval requirements, and required medical notes.

    8. Just me, Vee*

      In your Covid scenario, what we do when a person doesn’t have sick time, we make them use vacation, and if they don’t have any vacation, the absence is unexcused….unless they provide a doctor’s note. I can not for the life of me understand why your boss would consider those unpaid days as unexcused if you are sick. Will a doctor’s note change his mind? If not, he is unreasonable.

    9. RandomED*

      At my previous organization, a group of senior staff got together and wrote a letter, which they all signed. In the letter, they listed each of their collective complaints, examples of each problem, negative effects, and their requested solutions. I think the introduction of their letter also stated their commitment to their profession, the organization, the mission, etc, because they wanted to be taken seriously.

      A year, we instituted a LOT of change as a result of that letter. It doesn’t always work, but leadership can be motivated by a large group of disgruntled staff.

  23. Lawyers of AAM*

    Lawyers of AAM (especially BigLaw), I’m having my first credit allocation discussion with the partners I work with the most soon. Any tips for the discussion from people who have gone through this before? I have pulled what I’ve worked on this fiscal year and identified the matters I want credit on. I also talked earlier this week with the business development manager for my practice group and she made a :0 face when she was my numbers from last year and I plan on sharing that with them (maybe not an exact recreation but “according to her, I am very out of step with what she would normally see because it should be closer to $x”). Is there any other information I should come prepared with?

    1. kalli*

      Have some big picture figures as well – how many hours you billed, did you bring any clients in, any notable successes, other things you’ve done that make you look good.

  24. At Last*

    New grad here. Does it matter whether you answer interview questions using the STAR Method or SOAR Method? Is one method better than the other?

    1. HonorBox*

      I think I’d suggest using whichever you feel more comfortable with. When I’m conducting interviews, I’m looking for an answer that actually answers the question, does so in a reasonably succinct way, and allows the candidate to share more about themselves and their experience. If using one or the other helps you, go with that.

      I would be a little wary of someone who gave an answer with either where it felt like they were forcing something. Like if there was no real obstacle that was overcome, trying to force one into an answer using SOAR would feel weird to me. So adapt based on the question, but do what makes you comfortable.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Since I don’t know what they are and have successfully interviewed for 30+ years, probably not?

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I had to google this myself. This just feels like a mnemonic device to make sure you cover everything in your answer, and I suspect good candidates can do just that without explicitly resorting to either of these methods.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          This, exactly. Your answer should always cover background info, your actual role in what happened, your reasoning behind it, what the result was. You might be talking about problems or you might be talking about how you took advantage of an opportunity, or something else. It depends on the question. As a hiring manager who asks behavioral interview questions, I really don’t give a flying monkey about which framework someone uses as long as they give me a thorough and relevant answer.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I think it can take experience to know how to make sure you point to achievements and results instead of simply responding with your chronology and self assessed adjectives. It’s a bit like how we all read automatically and without sounding out letters, but no one starts that way. This is a scaffold for those unused to doing it.

      3. Awkwardness*

        Caveat: I’m not from the US. But I think the most important thing is to actually think through your answer and choose good convincing examples. If you need to answer the question on how you solved a conflict, but cannot make clear what the conflict was, it won’t make a difference if you use SOAR or STAR or any other method.
        So far I never aimed for a method and “just” answered, but still had no problems.

    3. Coconut Walz*

      I’ve seen an update to the STAR with ‘I’ Improvement. Also, I use ChatGPT to draft out responses that I use to update with my own real-life experiences.

      And if you didn’t know – other options might fit your style:

      CAR Context, Action, and Result – The CAR method can help interviewers assess how candidates communicate concisely and, how they prioritize and focus on the most relevant aspects of the situation, and how they link their actions to results. To use the CAR method, interviewers should ask candidates to describe a specific situation, the context they were in, the action they took, and the result they achieved.

      The SPAR method is a more interactive and dynamic version of the STAR method, where candidates describe the Situation, Problem, Action, and Result of the situation, and then engage in a dialogue with the interviewer. The dialogue can involve follow-up questions, probing questions, feedback, or suggestions from the interviewer, as well as clarifications, elaborations, or examples from the candidate. The SPAR method can help interviewers assess how candidates respond to feedback, how they justify their decisions, how they adapt to different scenarios, and how they collaborate with others.

      The SCARF method is a more holistic and comprehensive version of the STAR method, where candidates describe the Situation, Challenge, Action, Result, and Feedback of the situation. The Challenge is the obstacle or difficulty that the candidate faced in the situation, while the Feedback is the input or advice that the candidate received or gave after the situation. The SCARF method can help interviewers assess how candidates deal with challenges, how they seek and give feedback, and how they demonstrate emotional intelligence and interpersonal skills.

    4. Panda (she/her)*

      My company specifically mandates the STAR method (and this is made clear to candidates before the interview), which I think can be helpful but doesn’t always give me as much leeway for assessing nuance in responses (I’m a hiring manager).

      My approach to interviewing has not necessarily been STAR or SOAR, but rather I try to think about what the interviewer wants to know and answer that. Specifics are better than generalities, examples are even better. As an example, I’ve been asked “what kind of additional certifications or designations do you see yourself pursuing in this role?”, which I believe was assessing 1) do I know what skills and expertise would be required for this job? 2) am I familiar with standard designations and accreditations in my field, and 3) do I have a sense of where my career is going and what my gaps might be? My response was something along the lines of “I’m not sure that I feel the need for any additional certifications, however I would like to take some formal project management training since most of my PM expertise comes from informal experience, and take some courses in corporate finance so I can better understand how to plan and budget work.” That turned out to be a brilliant answer as the hiring manager didn’t put much stock in certifications but liked that I had a plan for continued training and growth.

      1. Joey doesn't share food!*

        That’s scary, “My company specifically mandates the STAR method (and this is made clear to candidates before the interview)” I’ve seen it suggested but not mandated. Perhaps for internal hiring, but externally, a mandate like this would make me rescind my interest.

        I understand that they think this makes a better interview, and assume it respects the time of staff, but it’s too much. It might also not work for neurodivergent applicants.

    5. Expelliarmus*

      IME, in a significant amount of interviews, you will be told which of those formats they’ll be expecting you to answer in. Not sure what the rule is if nothing is specified, but I’m personally more familiar with STAR so I’d probably do that.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, I think if it’s one of those sectors which grades for absolute fairness, and therefore needs a particular type of structure, then they’re going to tell you which one to use.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Probably best to mix it up across questions so that you don’t sound rote or forced.

    7. spcepickle*

      I don’t think it matters – what does matter is that you answer the question. I interview and hire lots of entry level people and they often talk without ever answering the questions.
      Here is how I prepare for interviews. I print off the job description (because I am old school) and I write in the margins how fulfil different job requirements. This gives me a chance to think about any previous work experience I want to highlight, how my education plays in, and so forth. I also have a story that responds to standard interview questions – how I worked in a team, overcame an obstacle, dealt with conflict.

      You don’t want to be so committed to a specific format or answer that you are trying to shoehorn an answer into a question that does not fit.

      Also it is 100% okay to a) ask them to repeat the question, b) ask for a more detail about what they are looking for or trying to get at, c) tell them – That is an interesting question, give me a moment to gather my thoughts.

      Also you should have questions prepared for the end – asking about job duties, culture, next steps.

      My biggest red flags when I interview: 1) you tell me you never have conflict, 2) you give 2 or 3 word answers to each question, 3) you have no questions about the job

  25. Newbie*

    Anyone who does comms/PR for nonprofits (specifically in the climate, energy or housing space) have anything conferences they recommend? I attended SEJ this year but so much of it was closed to general public (understandably) and reserved for just journalists. I have a pretty large professional development stipend I’d like to use!

    1. Former Admin Turned PM*

      If you are not already involved with the American Society for Association Executives (avoiding moderation by not putting the link here, but it’s easy to find online), look into what they may have related to communications for non-profit organizations. I have found that the overall association-related training is incredibly helpful across different spaces, so having training from a healthcare or trade NFP expert provides excellent resources that can translate to energy, interest areas, professional societies…

    2. Calico Cat*

      I went to the Ragan Future of Communications conference last year and I found it valuable! It skews more businesses/corporations than nonprofits, but the information was still relevant to me and the networking was great.

    3. H.C.*

      If you are in U.S. – check out the conferences/events put on by PRSA (Public Relations Society of America), a lot of the local/regional chapters also organize their own events if you aren’t able to attend the national one, and they have a division for nonprofit PR folks too (unfortunately the national nonprofit conference just took place earlier this month, but again – the local/regional chapters will likely have events for nonprofit communicators too.)

  26. Middle*

    I’m a first time middle manager at a school district. I support a department where a lot of folks are not paid very well, but we try and frame it with really good health benefits and passion for students. However we all know the pay is not great. Employees have started becoming upset at the lower pay (they could go to target and get paid more) and I understand. But I also don’t have much sway on increasing pay. Our school board has kept things really tight with the budget. Our leadership talks about boosting morale, staff recognition (with little gifts that come out of the staffs own pay) but we all know pay is an issue.

    I feel naive trying to suggest things like can we give a stipend for at least staff recognition so folks don’t have to pay out of pocket for a birthday party? But I’m not sure what else we can do to impact it. It’s a larger issue and I’m frustrated that I don’t have much influence. Anyone working through this as well?

    1. ?*

      As someone who also works in education, all you can really do is let your staff know (professionally) that you know they’re underpaid and don’t try to smooth over the issue too much. We had a salary freeze last school year but they did get an ice cream truck for us at the beginning of the year and I jokingly said I was ordering as many toppings as possible because this was the only raise I was getting! One of the admins defensively said, “but no one got raises!” Which didn’t exactly help. For what it’s worth, getting little trinkets is more offensive to everyone I’ve talked to than nothing at all—people want money, flat out. If there’s no money, can people get time off—leave early on a day kids aren’t there, have leadership cover for people on a rotating schedule so people can take turns leaving early if coverage is an issue?

      Of course none of this is your fault! But if leadership wants to know, I think the best thing is to be blunt about the fact that without higher pay, there’s a limit to how appreciated you can make people feel.

      1. Anonymous Teacher*

        Also in Public Ed here. I agree, getting perks like ice cream mostly annoys me because I’d rather have the money. I’ve been a middle manager myself, though at a pretty great place, and I think it works better to treat people like professionals, keeping high expectations, while accepting that you will lose some because of the pay. You don’t control the budget, so all you can do is advocate when you have the chance.
        I’m planning to leave myself over low pay and have thought about it many times before, but as long as I’m here, I might as well do my best. Being miserable all the time isn’t going to get us any more pay, and it’s not the kids’ fault, they deserve to learn.
        If the people you’re supervising aren’t motivated to to put in a reasonable amount of work to teach well, even given the circumstances, you’ll need to check in/ check up on them more frequently with surprise visits, and also really prioritize what you’re asking them to do so the pieces with the biggest impact on students get handled.
        Try to be as present as you can and listen to people, show that you are right there with them. Disconnected administrators and needless paperwork kill teacher motivation at least as fast as low pay. I’ve taken pay cuts twice to work in schools with strong leadership I respected.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I think this is just how education is. You’re going to have staff be reasonably upset about it, and you’re going to lose staff; a lot of them. I’ve never worked in a school were people were grateful they didn’t have to pay for a birthday party, though. That’s honestly a bonkers expectation when you work in teaching; I’m happy when I get enough stationery to last me the year. Not only will some small fry, cutesy gesture not make the slightest difference to them, it is obviously being taken from pay, and seems patronising. I find morale is highest when the shittiness of it is simply owned up to and validated. It’s probably better to focus on things like training, and progression and workload and putting whatever you can in the staffroom (we have free tea and coffee and biscuits for meetings). I’m in the UK and can’t speak to things like health benefits but that sounds much more like a serious response than a birthday party. Day off on a birthday might be a good call if you can swing it; teachers tend to be exhausted.

    3. Kez*

      I think you and the other commenters know that “staff appreciation” that’s done at the expense of those same staff and without any additional compensation is not actually going to feel like a benefit to most people. Frankly, that sounds like assigning more work (even if it’s fun work!) to folks that are already feeling taken advantage of.

      So! I’m glad you’re getting clear with your bosses that appreciation activities will need a budget in order to be effective, but there’s another area that I think you could focus in on while budgets are tight. You say that the health benefits are really good: how easily can your staff use them?

      I would say the secondmost item in the “What makes me feel valued as a person at work” list (under adequate pay) is flexibility and time off. In schools, there can often be a culture of pushing through any and all illness and inconvenience because otherwise the kids aren’t getting the quality education you want to provide. What can you do to ensure that staff feel totally free to take the time that they need to utilize the benefits they are entitled to? How can you build trust and respect in a way that fosters a collegial atmosphere and makes the statement “So-and-so is out today” the kind of sentence that doesn’t induce dread at all the extra work the team will have to do to provide coverage?

      I don’t know your industry or your staffing model, but taking a creative look at what cross-training and coverage safety net is built out can make a big difference in staff morale when pay isn’t super high. “Yeah, I’m not making the big bucks, but I love that I can take the afternoon off to see my daughter’s dance recital and not be worried about how the kids I work with will be impacted” is a pretty achievable goal to aim for.

  27. Someone Online*

    How do I become a better copy editor? I review documents a few times per week – not incredibly long documents but occasionally up to 10 pages. I love to read and read a lot – but I read for the story and my sense of proper grammar is more intuitive than the result of remembering the rules. So I can read something and “feel” if it flows ok, but I don’t always catch things like comma splices or things like that. It’s not a huge part of my job, but it is something I would like to become a bit more effective at.

    1. NaoNao*

      Checklist! I’m not a detail-oriented person as a rule and I really rely on checklists.

      Also there’s two ways to do it in general:

      1: Read through the entire piece looking for “X” flaw or mistake one by one. So you find all mis-spelling, all comma errors, all punctuation, etc. Check those off one by one.

      2: Go sentence by sentence and find each error and correct in situ.

      The first way may be helpful at first until you strengthen the “muscle” since it “breaks” the typical habit most people have of filling in the blanks or skimming over errors. You specifically pull out the item one by one (all commas, all punctuation) and ignore the context.

      1. Former Admin Turned PM*

        I did this a lot when I used to do briefing materials for my board meetings. First pass was to read for content and flow, then a run to read for grammar/punctuation (taking each paragraph on its own, perhaps even going backwards in the document) and then a final formatting.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you tried to deliberately break up the narrative flow?

      Read the paragraphs out of order. Heck, read the sentences out of order.

      3. Bast*

        This helps me a lot when proof reading things. If I read a document backwards, I often catch things that I didn’t by reading it forwards.

    3. Calico Cat*

      Adding to the above suggestions:

      Print the document out if possible

      Change the font — something about the document looking different than you expect makes it easier for your brain to see errors

      1. WestsideStory*

        I was going to suggest change the font. To a larger size preferably. This helps when you are re-editing a document multiple times after changes.

    4. Hyaline*

      If you feel like your grammar knowledge is brushed up but you still don’t catch mistakes, don’t worry, because it’s very normal! One of the biggest problems with copy editing is that our eyes like to skim over mistakes. Interrupt the flow of the reading to catch grammatical, spelling, and other mechanical errors. One trick I use is to start at the end of a document and read each paragraph (or sentence) starting with the last one and moving up. Reading out loud helps, too, because you can’t skip or skim.

        1. Word Nerd*

          Thirding “read out loud,” and my recommendation is read it forward, not backward. I do this often, and it always helps.
          Any place I find myself having to slow down or stumbling over the words is a place that needs another look.

  28. Alex*

    I work a part time job in addition to my full time job, just for some extra cash and the employee discount. For the most part, everyone else who works there is delightful.

    Except one person, Hulga. Hulga is universally hated by the rest of the staff, because she is constantly sniping and scolding and being difficult, even when faced with simple requests that are part of her job (she literally has yelled at me for letting her know that someone with whom she has a scheduled appointment has arrived).

    Anyway, a few months ago our boss made a “rule” that we are no longer allowed to sit down during our shifts. This is ridiculous and illegal in my state, and most of us refuse to follow this new rule, including myself. I have back problems and could easily get a doctor’s note, but instead, I just don’t follow it. I have not followed it in front of my boss and he hasn’t said anything. If it comes to it, I will quit over it. I’m not standing for 6 hours for no actual reason other than “looking alert.”

    This rule does not apply to Hulga’s role, and Hulga is not my boss. However, when she sees me or another employee sitting, she very condescendingly “reminds” us that we are not supposed to sit down. She has done this multiple times. I have told her I am aware of the rule, and that I am still choosing to sit down, because, I’m tired. I have told her that the boss has seen me do it and doesn’t seem to care. But she keeps on “reminding” me as though a) she is my boss and b) I don’t know.

    I really am starting to get ready to tell to to shove it up her a** but I am aware that is not professional. I don’t want to be the annoying person telling my boss that a) his rule is illegal per state law and cites the statutes and b) Hulga is being an annoying busybody. But I’m UP TO HERE with her.

    This job isn’t worth it to me to make a big fuss. It’s a part time gig and I have a full time job that pays me a living wage. But I’d really rather not quit. Anyone have some advice on how to handle this situation?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      “Hulga, I’m aware of the rule. I’m choosing to break it. Boss has seen me break it and hasn’t addressed it, so I’m asking that you don’t address it with me again.”

      1. Achtung, Baby*

        Mmmm I wouldn’t even say that much. Just “this is between me and boss, please stop asking me about it”.

    2. Rebecca*

      Stand up until you see her around, make eye contact, then sit down without breaking eye contact. Bonus points if you pick up a drink and sip from it while still making eye contact.

      Or, acknowledge her statement and respond only the words and not to any perceived intent or personal opinion of her: “Thanks for letting me know, Helga.”

    3. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      “Yep, but I’m sitting anyway.” Wash, rinse, repeat. And don’t add any explanations.

      1. Alex*

        This is pretty much exactly what I’ve said. Maybe I’ll add “so please stop bringing it up.” as suggested above.

        1. Roland*

          Ultimately you might not be able to get her to back off, so your goal should just be ending each interaction as quickly and painlessly (for you) as possible. Hulga gonna hulga.

      2. Observer*

        “Yep, but I’m sitting anyway.” Wash, rinse, repeat. And don’t add any explanations.

        I think that this is the best way. You’ve done more than enough explaining.

        And if she tries to push it or ask why, just ignore her. I mean just don’t respond at all.

    4. Sherm*

      I think it may be good to get the rule officially ended. Although the boss is not saying anything, he may be silently seething. You could approach the boss as a group and mention the impact the rule would have. Bringing up the law would probably be helpful, and you could convey it in the spirit of “Let’s keep our nose clean” instead of “Ha! You can’t make us!”

      With the rule overturned, Hulga would have no ammunition.

      1. Alex*

        The weird thing is, my extremely non-confrontational boss never actually SAID anything about it. To me, anyway. He left a note saying that he had “removed the chairs” and that people needed to look alert, not “sitting around on their phones.” He then told a few select people that he didn’t want people sitting because he wanted us to give a better first impression. And then let it go through the rumor mill, which is strong here.

        I simply get a chair from the other room and put it back when I am done with it. For the record, I was NOT one of the ones using my phone constantly during my shift. And for those who DID use their phones constantly, not sitting down has not curbed their behavior!

        I could push back and make him “clarify” the rule and then come back with the law. But it feels like an odd thing to do when he hasn’t actually said anything TO ME about it.

        (One of my coworkers responded to Hulga with “Boss can talk to us about it if he needs to.” That was VERY displeasing to her.)

        1. Kay*

          Since it was so displeasing to her, then I would go with that. I think I would likely say after the first instance “Like I said before, Boss can talk to us if he needs to”. Maybe throw in some “This again?” or “I think we already covered this/Oh we’ve covered this”, then simply not respond anymore.

        2. The Unionizer Bunny*

          The weird thing is, my extremely non-confrontational boss never actually SAID anything about it. To me, anyway.

          This isn’t “weird”, it’s “CYA” behavior. He’s discouraging sitting down because he knows full well that it’s illegal for him to order it stopped, and he prefers to merely drop hints about what he wants with the knowledge that the people hungry for a promotion will be eager to predict what will make him happy. But, like any aspiring mob boss, he knows how to avoid actually giving explicit orders himself. I’d wager there are more illegal practices going on at that workplace, for him to be so habitually “non-confrontational”.

          If he is ever called out on what those people said, he’ll just claim that they misunderstood him and it was totally their fault. But in the meantime, he can just sit back and let the ambitious ones (like Hulga) do his enforcement work for him. Can you pretend you’re oblivious to the rumor mill? E-mail him a report about this employee (no need to name Hulga) who’s trying to take his place as the boss when he’s not around, and insisting that “no sitting” is a rule, but YOU haven’t heard any such rule – can he shed any light on it?

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            I agree. If it was as straightforward as “quit staring at your phones and look alert,” he could just say that. It’s a perfectly legit policy. This sounds like he’s trying to slide stuff that isn’t okay through the whisper mill with Hulga as enforcer.

        3. I Have RBF*

          (One of my coworkers responded to Hulga with “Boss can talk to us about it if he needs to.” That was VERY displeasing to her.)

          Good! All of you should say that, then. If Hulga is going to be a wannabe rules cop, you need to put her in her place repeatedly until she stops. “Boss can talk to us about it if he needs to.” points out A) that it’s not her place to enforce it, B) that she’s NOT your boss, and C) she should just STFU about it, all without being rude or unprofessional.

          But your boss is an ass and Hulga is a jerk.

        4. Observer*

          One of my coworkers responded to Hulga with “Boss can talk to us about it if he needs to.” That was VERY displeasing to her.

          I can imagine! She’s trying to run the show, and your coworker is just telling her that it’s not going to happen. From her POV, that’s really bad.

          I’m sure everyone who saw it wanted to clap.

        5. Ellis Bell*

          I’d repeat that last comment to her; there’s a reason it bugs her. I think some other options are; “It’s weird you’re so focused on this”, “I’m not sure I see how it is impacting your work at all?” “I’m not going to discuss my medical issues just because you’re curious”, “I’m certain you’re repeating yourself here”, “I wouldn’t get involved in that one if I were you, it’s not really legal”.

      2. samwise*

        With the rule overturned, Hulga will find something else to be crappy about.

        (OP, love the ref to Flannery OConnor!)

    5. My Brain is Exploding*

      1. Deadpan: yup! or
      2. Shocked face/exclamation: oh no! really! oh my goodness! (etc.)
      3. Stare and say nothing.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      I wouldn’t go to the boss and say it’s illegal, but I would say it to Hulga. It’s none of her business anyway, but I’d still probably go with a super bland nearly bored sounding response. Not trying to get into it about the policy, just “duh I’m not following that, it’s not legal to require it anyway”. Because then it puts on Hulga as the one breaking the law, not your boss, who has apparently never held this up anyway.

    7. Forrest Rhodes*

      A somewhat-surprised, happy-voice “Oh, Hulga, thank you so much! I didn’t know that!”—every time she mentions it. Every. Single. Time.
      When she responds with, “But I told you [last time, yesterday, whatever]!” your answer is a baffled “Really? I guess I didn’t hear that.” Every. Single. Time.
      Even if it doesn’t drive her ’round the bend, you’ll have fun doing it.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Broken record: “Yup, I know.”

      Don’t explain. You did that already. Just the shortest possible answer while continuing to do it your way. And immediately go back to what you were doing with no further engagement.

  29. Despairingly unemployed*

    I had two interviews over two days, which was very exciting! Until I had the second, intense, interview. And now I’m overthinking while they make their decision, not at all as quickly as I was led to believe (which is actually fine). On the one hand, I neeeeed a job, and I’d be working with students, yay. On the other, I’m a bit rattled/intimidated by that interview and left doubtful of my skills. (Yes I was warned she was intense, it’s still not a good feeling.)

    Definitely strong small business/family run vibes:
    – a weird question (director returned to my answer when I said something else later and asked why that wasn’t my answer, as if everyone is always their authentic self when interviewing…)
    – meh benefits (6 sick days, 1 week of PTO aside from xmas shutdown, no 401k contribution (not what the ad said))
    – seemingly no raises/chances for growth due to small staff (I can’t quite recall if she said it made more business sense to replace people rather than continuously raise their salaries, which. yeah, but?)
    – learning the whole to cover people when they’re out (which I don’t mind as much)
    – appreciates loyalty but prefers someone who’d be upfront if it isn’t a good fit

    Honestly, not sure of my chances, but I’m left wondering if I should accept it IF I get an offer. (I took half a second to respond to “are you interested in this job” and director grilled me about it!) I think it’s 3 months probation, and I’d need to move to the bigger city (which, hah, might look into short term rentals in case it doesn’t pan out?). I did apply to two other “perfect” jobs, but they’re in higher ed and my record with them is kinda crap and they usually take months to process. Thoughts/advice?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      I was leaning toward “take the job and keep looking,” until you mentioned needing to move for this. NO! Don’t do that! This job sucks! No raises? No promotions? No 401k match? ONE week of PTO? Family-run business vibes? What DOES this job offer? Be smart, this job will cost you more money than you’ll make.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        To be fair on the moving front, I currently live less than 2hrs away by train, but I don’t want to commute (I’ve done it briefly, don’t want a life like that), so the moving would be more… clothes than anything bulky? Especially if I find a short term furnished rental, but it is… yeah. :| This job offers me income and a current job on my resume… and new skills? Hah

    2. Paint N Drip*

      That’s a lottttt of ‘meh’ to ‘???’ flags here – I work for a TINY company and my benefits are better than that, AND I have a good relationship with my boss. Even if you’re not in constant contact with the director, their intensity and weirdness will surely be echoed in policies and the work environment. If your soul will wither (or you’ll be homeless or whatever) without getting this job, accept with eyes wide open, but beware that if you are pegged to be ‘not a good fit’ it seems like director would be happy to kick you out swiftly :(

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        It is, right? It’s not just me? :( I guess we’ll see what happens, it’s weird going from ecstatic to reticent, but yeah I’d… hm. I’d be better off not stewing in unhappiness and saying ‘no thanks’ earlier than later. Aghh

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        I’m glad it’s not just me! I mentioned the moving above, less than 2hrs by train, but… yeah, I’d want to be sure I can stay in a new place, not… dealing with more uncertainty.

    5. I Have RBF*

      seemingly no raises/chances for growth due to small staff (I can’t quite recall if she said it made more business sense to replace people rather than continuously raise their salaries, which. yeah, but?)

      This is a big red flag. Like, every year you worked there you would be effectively making less and less money in real buying power terms. That with the quite frankly mediocre benefits plus having to move would put it in the “Yeah, no. Not even close, no cigar.” range for me. The place sounds like a dumpster fire.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        That’s a good point. Not that I’d want to stay there anyhow, but given my resume and long unemployment… two years might be a minimum for my next job which makes this all the more argggg.

    6. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

      Those benefits aren’t “meh,”—they’re straight up crap. Plus no indication of growth potential. I’d be surprised if the pay is decent, and even if it is, between the crap benefits and the crap growth potential you’ll be losing money before long (inflation, lost potential).

      PLUS the other warning signs? Don’t take the job.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        Yeah ok, I didn’t want to call them that myself but. You’re not wrong! Lol. I’ve seen on here how PTO shouldn’t be inclusive of holiday shutdowns like ??? Hello?? At this point I’m very curious IF I get an offer what the salary would be because I said the top of their listed range annnnd she didn’t seem impressed with my experience so, it could be a non-starter and I’m just anxiously overthinking for no reason!

    7. BikeWalkBarb*

      Compare those benefits to what you have now and look at the total compensation package, not just salary. This sounds bad.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        Well I’m unemployed so it’s… well. It’d be a job. Cue the agony of not wanting to bail too early lest I really look like a job hopper, vs, I don’t know, staying 2 years for resume’s sake…

  30. Kippu*

    This is a rather low-stakes question but…

    What is the appropriate amount of time to wait after receiving an email, that should have an attachment but does not, before replying asking for the attachment? And what’s the most polite way to phrase said email?

    Thanks!

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you can ask immediately upon receipt. Largely because it feels like you’re more apt to catch someone who is still at their computer.

      “I don’t see anything attached” is a phrase I’ve used. You’re not suggesting someone did something wrong…just that something isn’t there that you expected to see.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yeah, I second that there’s no required wait time before you can ask.

        “Hey [coworker], I don’t see the [file] attached to the email. Can you please resend it?” Is perfectly polite and professional.

    2. Achtung, Baby*

      If they haven’t realized in 5-10 minutes, they probably won’t on their own. Just straightforward like “hey, I think you forgot the attachment, can you send that to me?” Don’t overthink it :)

    3. CTT*

      I usually wait five minutes in case they realized immediately after they sent it and are preparing the follow-up email (we also have pretty stringent email filters at work, so that adds a few minutes for things to come through), and then ask if they can resend the email with the attachment.

    4. Cordelia*

      why would you wait? if you point it out straight away they are more likely to still be at the computer and be able to rectify it.
      I’d just email as soon as I’ve noticed, and say “hi, I think you forgot the attachment?” We’ve all done it, it’s not a criticism.

      1. Lexi Vipond*

        Because about 50% (this is not a scientific number) of the time people realise as soon as they hit send, so if you reply straight away their message saying ‘oops, here’s the attachment’ and yours saying ‘there’s no attachment’ will pass in the ether.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Right away is fine. “It doesn’t look like an attachment came through. Would you mind resending, please?”

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      One thing to add: if you’re one of several email recipients, I think it’s kind to reply only to the sender (as opposed to reply-all). I do realize that this means the sender might get 5 “hey, you forgot the attachment” emails, but I still err on the side of a semi-private heads-up. Kind of a, “Hey, looking out for you, you forgot something.”

    7. Blue Pen*

      I’ll say something like “looks like the attachment didn’t come through, could you resend?”

    8. Hillary*

      You don’t need to wait – you can send it as soon as you notice. When I forget I either notice immediately (yay delayed send) or never see it.

      Seconding saying the attachment didn’t come through (and not you forgot) – this is a situation that calls for the passive voice. Maybe they forgot it. Maybe the email server stripped it off. Regardless you can give them cover.

    9. Former Admin Turned PM*

      I do it right away if I see it, with a “can you resend, I can’t see the attachment” message so that they may still be able to retract and resend without everyone on the string seeing that it’s missing. If it’s not a brand new message, I double check that a correction hasn’t come through, then reply as above.

    10. Hyaline*

      I’d give it 5-15 minutes in case the sender catches their mistake quickly, but I wouldn’t give it longer than that because I’d forget! If it’s someone I know well I just call them on the oops (“Forget something, Jane?”) but usually I’d go with “I must have missed the attachment–can you please resend?” or “It looks like the attachment didn’t come through, please send it along when you have a chance!”

    11. allathian*

      Our ticketing system frequently simply doesn’t send the attachments. Generally I’ll notice as soon as I’ve sent it and resend. Sometimes if my customer’s waiting for their file, they’ll send an “Oops, it looks like you forgot the attachment” or a “Where’s the attachment?” just as I’m sending it to them. Our ticketing system is slow and only sends emails every 5 minutes to decrease the load. Anyway, I don’t get upset when people wonder where their files are, although I must admit that email attachments are an old fashioned way of doing things. In many cases, links to shared files work just as well or better.

  31. Bonkers*

    Mourn with me – my position is transitioning from remote to hybrid, and I am very sad.

    Background is that I work with data – data management and analysis. Science stuff. Everyone has been very happy with my WFH output, and I’ve been very happy to skip the 30 minute commute. But the bigwigs think we need more collaboration, so they’re implementing 60% in-office mandate starting in January.

    So now I lose 3 hours a week to a commute, and take a 1.5% paycut due to local taxes, just to sit in a cubicle rather than my nice home office. Boooooooo.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The worst! My job can also 100% be done from home, so I feel you. We were also made to come back in part time for “collaboration” and every time I hear about some giant collaboration issue that didn’t magically improve by everyone being in the office, I have to side-eye it significantly. Transit in my city is worse, so my commute is now about 30% longer than it was pre-pandemic, so I’m extra salty about it.

    2. Former Admin Turned PM*

      I feel your pain. We moved to 60% onsite for our hybrid employees as of July 1 and there are way too many days when I am onsite and spend my whole day on teleconferences with external people in a huddle room (so no collaboration in person anyway, because I’m not at my desk and available!) I also wish I could start expensing my gasoline bill, since coming in more often means I have to fill up that much more.

    3. Meg*

      My partners job is doing the exact same thing! He’s quite upset about it because he literally doesn’t talk to anyone in the office at his location, hes on calls with folks in other states! But they want more “collaboration” so off he must go.

    4. I Have RBF*

      This “collaboration” thing is so much bullshit. They want to make use of/justify their investment in commercial real estate, so the employees have to pay the costs in terms of commuting and increased exposure to “collaborative” germs. It’s a command and control thing, and it sucks. It will also not improve their bottom line, and will cost them their most talented employees.

    5. Bitte Meddler*

      At my last company, the new CEO ordered everyone in to the office Mon-Thur, no exceptions. When people complained that now they drive 45 minutes to do what they did at home (sit in front of monitors, with meetings happening over Teams so screens can be shared), he told the whole company that we were “doing it wrong” and that we needed to hold our meetings in conference rooms.

      Okee-dokee. I’ll book a conference room, take my laptop, connect to the Teams meeting, and share my [tiny to me] screen with the people who are in different cities, states, and countries than I am. Sooooo much better than working from home! Much collaboration! Huge team building! I feel more cohesive already!

    6. Percy Weasley*

      You have my sincere condolences! This happened at my workplace earlier this year & I’m very resentful about dealing with commute/wardrobe/meal planning/etc. to be confined to a cubicle all day. On a typical in-office day, my most meaningful interactions with co-workers involve a quick hello as we pass in the hallway. Sigh.

    7. allathian*

      I’m so sorry. I’m also officially hybrid but mostly WFH because that’s how I get most of my work done. I’m an experienced translator, so any day-to-day collaboration, as in not for process improvement purposes, is pretty exclusively asynchronous and mainly involves proofreading my coworker’s particularly critical translations or having him proofread mine. Very occasionally we might brainstorm around a particularly difficult piece of text, but that’s just as easily done on our Teams chat. Actually more easily because he has a pretty severe hearing impairment and needs to see my face, either in person or on camera, to read my lips.

      I go to the office once a week or less, and that’s mainly to socialize with my coworkers. They’re good people and I enjoy the feeling of working towards the same goal. We aren’t buddy buddies but if I go to the office, I go there for the social interactions. Sure, I get some work done, but less than I would WFH.

      I will say, though, that it takes a concerted effort to onboard people remotely. Some organizations are set up for that and do it well, but many aren’t. It’s definitely easier to transfer “silent knowledge” in person because much of it happens more or less spontaneously.

  32. NaoNao*

    I’m currently in learning and development and have spent the last 18 months or so in healthcare insurance (on the insurer side). I’ve learned a *ton* about healthcare, including some pretty Byzantine regulations, etc, and I’m interested in seeing if I can translate that to heathcare/medical tech/healthcare software education.

    I feel I’ve reached a ceiling in a few ways as an IC in my particular field. I’ve recently quietly decided I’m done mastering new tools for the same skills (i.e. becoming an expert on Articulate Rise’s new AI tool for example) as when I look at leadership roles, they are not tactical and some have almost no experience with the day to day tools of the job and I’m going on year 15 of IC roles and would like to step up into leadership, not be a lifetime IC in a mid-level role.

    Given this, it seems to make sense to look at pivoting into a new type of role.

    Two questions:

    **What are the job titles?** A couple search strings on LinkedIn got literal medical provider/practitioner results and I can’t seem to find the right terms.

    **What are the specific skills or tools or experience I may need to highlight on a resume?** I’ve got facilitation (lots of varied experience here) as well as technical writing, adult learning principles, learning strategy, consultation to leadership, consensus building/relationship building and a handful of state and fed regulations/laws as concerns medical stuff. Any other key skills?

    Thanks all!

    1. BellyButton*

      I started my L&D career as Medical Management Software trainer– EPIC is one of the most well know. I would look for MMS software companies and look at openings there. Getting EPIC certified is a big undertaking, but if you can get it with a company that will pay for your training/certification it is HUGE in the MMS world of training, and one of the highest paid training positions in that area. Hope this helps!

      1. HealthITEducation*

        Epic is a provider system. NaoNao has experience on the player side. Most healthcare orgs do (unfortunately) care about this.

        I’d look for course developer or trainer at payer orgs or vendors who make software speciplayers. or primarily for payers. At vendors, another likely role is product evangelist, but you may need more specific experience first.

        Good luck!

  33. One on One*

    I haven’t had a one on one with my manager in 2 and a half months. she’s always struggled to have them and for the first 6 months I worked there we were supposed to have them weekly which ended up being every 3-4 weeks. When I asked if we were having a 1:1 I was usually told she’d try and make time but was too busy. When I had something to discuss I would have to ask 4 or 5 times before she would finally sit down with me. About 3 months ago she said she wanted to switch them to every other week which she hoped would make them more consistent. She has had one 1:1 since then and has not even mentioned it in over 2 months. The other person on my role has also not had a 1:1 with her since the end of May. I’min final round interviews for a new job so at this point I’m curious to see if she’ll ever schedule a 1:1 with me before I quit. but I’m curious for my teammate, what advice y’all might have.

    1. BellyButton*

      I would send a recurring meeting invite and see if she attends or cancels them on a regular basis.

      1. One on One*

        we have a recurring meeting invite that pops up for both of us every week -never acknowledged on her side

      2. Miss Corporate*

        I recommend this along with documentation. If upper management is looking for performance updates and it’s tracked then you need to make a big deal, if they’re not then you should make sure you have them on a somewhat consistent basis for your own growth but don’t stress yourself. Some managers unfortunately have to be managed but it’s easier for upward movement with them, imo. Some people just don’t manage time well or don’t like meetings.

        I’ve told a friend recently, who hasn’t had a single 1:1 since they started their job 2 years ago the problem with that is it makes it very hard for growth at the company.

        1. One on One*

          That is such a good point. They actually told me I’d be eligible for promotion in August and we had a plan in place to give me practice in the skills required. They cancelled that plan as another employee got in trouble and they needed to prioritize his PIP and growth. They haven’t brought up promoting me in months and I haven’t either because my focus is getting out.
          The manager is beloved by the office so it’s hard to bring up my concerns because they are really only relevant because she is a great employee but a frustrating manager to our tiny team.

          1. Miss Corporate*

            That is unacceptable. Your growth can’t stop because another employee is on a PIP. It’s one thing to reschedule for the next week but to put off your development? No. Every employee should be receiving what they need. It’s understandable that some might need more hands on assistance or more frequent meetings. Even if you’re leaving still get the promotion.

    2. Joey doesn't share food!*

      I left that boss, too. She was on deck for 1 month before we even talked. Then every 1:1 was canceled or rescheduled. It got to the point that I had to check my calendar in the morning to determine the status. It was possible by the time I arrived to work it was moved or cancelled. Perhaps I have her too much information prior to the meeting such that she didn’t think she needed to hold the meeting. I’d assume she’d like to talk to me at some point of our working together.

      All in we worked together for 3.5 mos and had (4) 1:1’s before I left. Turns out my gut instinct that she was a dirt bag was right; she left 2.5 mos after me which was 6-mos into her tenure.

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I honestly don’t have formal 1:1’s very often, but my manager is available so I haven’t really felt a need.

      In a prior job where I was rarely in contact with my manager, I would send a weekly report – just a quick email bulleting what was done, what was looming and where I had a roadblock. Do I think my manager read all of them, probably not. But I provided them the opportunity to reorganize priorities if needed and wasted nobody’s time. Sometimes I would get a 2 minute follow up chat if something caught his eye.

      1. One on One*

        I like the idea of the weekly report. I’m much more comfortable with managing up than I am with the current no contact for weeks kinda style.
        This manager is very much not available. I’ll ask her the same question over email and chat 3 or 4 times and it is ignored even if I explain why I’m asking or just ask for an emoji thumbs up or down if she doesn’t have time for a full answer.

  34. Busy Middle Manager*

    I was wondering if someone here could give me a concrete example of what gets termed “niche roles” here and in other work-related forums online.

    I’ve been wondering about it since so many times a complicated question comes up here, the person says their role is niche, so they can’t disclose it for anonymity’s sake, but it’s hard to give advice without knowing the field.

    On reddit this week there was a question where someone had been hired for “niche” work that was drying up down to 5% of what it used to be but the employee refuses to take on new work due to being “niche.” To my surprise more than half of the comments were pro the employee only doing that 5% of previous workload going forward. But since we don’t know what the role actually is, it’s really hard to give advice!

    All I know is that my job changes every year and I keep having to learn new computer programs to keep up, so it feels weird when other people aren’t changing and saying they’re niche. Obviously there is only some overlap between the “I am niche” and “I won’t change” crowd but there is still some small overlap

    1. NaoNao*

      I’d say I’m in a niche role and I’ll anonymize it as an example:

      I facilitate classes for regulatory complaints for Medicare/Medicaid for a Fortune 20 health insurance company.

      The regulatory aspect, and Medicare/Medicaid aspect make it a bit “niche” (this is not my actual job, but it’s close).

      I would classify niche jobs as:

      Focused on a sub-set of a particular area, a drill-down of a drill-down (so not just “I facilitate classes about health insurance”, and not even Medicare/Medicaid, it’s *regulatory aspects* of those Medicare/Medicaid in health insurance)

      Using job-specific non-transferrable tech, tools, skills, and software, particularly proprietary to the role or company. Like you don’t use “Power BI” or “Tableau”, you use “Focus4000, a WorldWide Health CMS” that only WorldWide Heath uses.

      Very few people overall do this job (either you never meet people with this job title overall, the field is small, or the tech is outdated or sunset–like COBAL coders or being a Windows 7 expert or something)

      The job is difficult to summarize in one word (or you can, but it is not descriptive at all–like “trainer” is a fair description, but the type of materials/projects I train is very niche).

    2. lurkyloo*

      I think the term refers to ‘What I do is somewhat difficult to quantify, but my skills in this specific area are in high demand’.
      My role: I work with Indigenous communities. I work in funding. I am skilled at building relationships in this forum. I am also a very skilled facilitator.
      Therefore, it’s hard to put on a resume and I get more roles through the network of folks that know me. I work in a niche role.
      That being said, I love learning new things (which is how I ended up blending my soft skills expertise into funding). So I’d be taking on all the new things because I love to do that, job description or not. :)

    3. Awkwardness*

      I can only tell what comes to my mind when I read this term.
      This would be very detailed, industry-specific knowledge maybe paired with required certifications or required experience. E.g. audits or taxes for corporations in healthcare with government contracts, more than 100000 employees and operating in the US and EU. Or manufacture of violins. Or waste-treatment of radioactive soil.
      But I have no idea as well!

    4. Tio*

      I’m in a fairly niche role. I’m a federally licensed customs broker. That’s fairly small in itself, as you have to pass a test to get licensed, but not the most niche thing. However I have a bit of an FDA specialty in experience in training. It’s not an official title, but it is what I am, and I would not have the skillset to move into, for example, a drawback company, because drawback is another subspecialty like my FDA bend.

      So I would call it a person from a small pool of a small field, specializing in an even smaller type of that work.

    5. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      So, to use the profession in my username as an example, each public library system in a major city will have 50-100 librarians on staff, but only 3-5 of those librarians will be catalog librarians who are in charge of creating the computer records for the books and making sure they’re classified in the right area. So librarian wouldn’t be a niche profession, but cataloging librarian would.

    6. Nightengale*

      At last count there were 757 others in my medical sub-specialty in the US. So I’m pretty confident in my use of the word niche to describe my job. There are 4 others in my medium-sized city then it’s at least 2 hours by car in any direction to the next. There are other related fields of medicine, psychology and allied health, and questions on those topics are often relevant to me but I couldn’t do a job in any of those fields or vice versa.

  35. High Heels*

    High heels – do I keep them “just in case” or do I donate them?

    My office had a professional/business-casual dress code and for over a decade I wore high heels 3-4 times per week, Fridays were jeans day but tennis shoes were not acceptable (personal preference of the CEO). Just before the pandemic the dress code switched to casual/smart business so I bought several pairs of dressy flats and wore high heels maybe once every week or two. Now post-pandemic the dress code is ‘whatever you’re comfortable in’ and I’ve last week I even saw shorts (gasp!) Now that we’re back in the office as hybrid I’ve been wearing flats or tennis shoes.

    Since the start of the pandemic I’ve only worn high heels three times, all were to formal events, and I definitely lost that skill! My feet and leg muscles hurt so bad I swore I’d never wear them again.

    I’m realizing that I’m more attached to my high heels than I thought. But does holding on to them “just in case” make any sense? I definitely could use that space for something else but that little voice in my head keeps saying “but what if an unexpected need for high heels pops up?” Anyone else deal with this?

    1. Tio*

      I’m wondering what you have decided a need for high heels would be. I’m a woman and have never worn high heels for work, just dressy flats. I think the need may be partially in your own mind, so if you don’t want to wear them, I would let them go.

      1. MsM*

        Yep. I have foot issues that prevent me from wearing high heels. No one even notices my nice dressy flats at galas or other big work events, much less makes an issue out of them.

        No, wait, I take that back. I do get the occasional “Where did you get those? They look comfy.” And they are! Definitely easier to stand on my feet for hours and still be able to get myself home at the end of the night.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      Sorry, we can’t answer this question for you. Your job doesn’t require them (and if it did I’d tell you to quit), so this isn’t really a career-related question, it’s more of a personal question.

      Do you enjoy wearing heels? Do you like these particular heels? Keep them. Do you dislike wearing heels? Give them away. Do you like wearing heels, but dislike these particular ones? Give them away.

      This is so tired and cliche at this point, but “The Life-Changing Magic Of Tidying Up” by Marie Kondo is so, so helpful in sorting out emotions toward your things. Give it a try!

      1. WestsideStory*

        This is a good strategy. Keep the ones that are most comfortable and can go with most things. The ones you could dance in should stay – as someone said, having to go out last minute for the shoes required for certain dressy occasions is a real pain.

        The ones that were expensive but hurt your feet should go. If they were so expensive you’ll looking at sunk cost fallacy, try selling them at a stoop sale, flea market, postmark, Facebook marketplace etc. to recoup some of their cost.

        But I totally feel you, OP. For my last in-office gig, I kept the heels in a desk drawer for when I needed them, and I for evenings I’ve been known to use a bag large enough to carry some foldable flats (and a small scrunchy tote bag to tote the heels home).

        Having spent the last two summer months primarily in my Tevas, and with two stoop sales, I am now down to four pairs of high heels. One calf leopard sling back, one blue tweed/black leather (holding them on till fall ) and two chunky platform summer sandals I can dance in.

        Also as someone mentioned, for style other heels (kitten heels, block heels) look more contemporary, so make room for new shoes as you feel you need them.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        Marie Kondo is so useful for unnecessary things that you’re attached to. Especially when you gather them all together and look at how many you’ve got. I had a similar thing were I was wearing heels less and less (never had jobs were they were practical though) and getting a bit irked at the space they took up. I decided to keep a plain, low pair with a shape I loved, and a higher more colourful favourite pair. They don’t get much use but I have used them since deciding to keep them, and were just the thing.

    3. NaoNao*

      I have and I get it. I had three pairs of gorgeous vintage Prada tweed heels and slowly got rid of all but one, and that remaining pair has been “on the chopping block” for a bit. It’s painful! I loved those shoes and felt like a Real Business LadyTM when wearing them.

      I wound up giving away 90% of my heels over time, they’re just something I don’t wear unless it’s in a clog or similar shoe, not a pump-style shoe. Plus, pumps just aren’t “in” right now compared to other heel styles and other shoe styles lately and I suspect it will be about 5 years before we see a resurgence, and then they’ll look different (shoes always “date” really fast).

      One way to do it might be replacing the heels with a similar shoe in terms of formality, elegance, etc, or a lower/kitten/block heel instead of the typical stiletto.

      I’d hold onto one pair that’s the most comfortable/versatile/highest quality but let the others go unless they were like…70% designer irreplaceable or something. Nine West or Cole Haan can go without sweating it.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I never had a huge collection, but have kept them boxed up in the top of my closet just in case. The last thing I want to do is go shoe shopping at the last minute for an occasion where I’d need heels. I recently went to a funeral and I don’t have any “nice” enough shoes without heels to wear to such a thing, so having a pair of black heels I could dig out of the closet saved me a lot of trouble.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I have a pair that I can use for interviews and everything else can just be moved along.

    6. Alex*

      Well I’m 43 (and a woman) and have never, not once, owned or worn a pair of heels, so I can assure you that you will never NEED them.

      If a “dressy” event came up, would you be sad not to have them? Say, a wedding or something? Or would you say, “nah I’d really rather wear my flats”?

      Hopefully one pair of shoes isn’t going to make or break your closet, but it definitely sounds like you don’t need a whole collection. Could you pick one pair of “goes with most everything” heels and call it a day?

      1. allathian*

        I hear you. I have what I call Daisy Duck feet, short and wide, with the widest point at the root of my big toe. In most feet, the heel pad takes up about 25% of the length of the foot, in my case it’s more like 40%. The highest heels I’ve ever worn were about 2 in, and they were block heels, but I’ve never worn or owned a pair of stiletto heels. Shoes with pointed tips just don’t work for me, and I do want a low heel rather than completely flat shoes like Converse. Speaking of which, Converse does a nice line in bridal/party shoes if you like them/can wear them.

    7. DrSalty*

      I gave all my heels away except some very low block heels for that same reason. The ones I kept are good enough to be dressy if I need that but they’re not going to wreck my feet and legs.

    8. Hillary*

      I’m in the same boat – I don’t work in an office anymore and don’t expect to ever work in a business casual/formal environment again.

      I’m keeping the shoes that I love and giving away almost all the shoes that I had so I could rotate. (I have way too many shoes and will still have too many after I take a ton to my buy nothing treasure hunt tomorrow.)

      Black leather closed toe ranging from flat to 2″ heel from the comfort shoe store? I’m keeping one pair and getting rid of the rest.

      Blue patent leather Cole Haans? Absolutely keeping.

    9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I would pare it down to 1-2 pairs that would work with most outfits and donate the rest. Store the 2 pairs in boxes on a high shelf and realize how long it has been since you have worn them 3 years from now.

      I used to keep a couple around for real wear and several distinctive ones for theatre costuming (I am an actor), but the longer I went without wearing them the harder it was to wear them. I wore my last pair to a wedding 2 years ago, came home and dumped them all into the goodwill box.

    10. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      As others have said, this totally a personal, individual decision, nobody else’s take matters.

      If I was in your, ahem, shoes, with hardly any events where they’re even expected, none where required, I wasn’t choosing to wear them when they weren’t required just because I liked them, aaaaand they caused me pain to wear, I’d find them a new home. I see no reason to keep stuff I demonstrably am not using and can’t use without pain.

      That said, I have kept 1 pair of high heeled shoes more than 10 years, since the last time I did skirt-and-heels party dress instead of suit-and-tie, because these heels are the only ones I’ve ever found that fit my unique feet semi-comfortably and match my understated style, I had to search for months and try on dozens of brands to find something workable in the first place, it was exhausting and demoralizing and I never want to have to do that again. If I could easily find replacements, I’d unload these too.

      Nonbinary person with wierd shaped and sized feet special problems.

    11. Kay*

      Oh I sympathize with this so much!! My plan is to start with the ones that are the least comfortable/least worn and get rid of those first. I have so many beautiful shoes, and I guarantee I’m not going to wear more than a handful in the next 5 years, if that. I would absolutely keep a few of my favorites/most useful, and work on getting rid of the rest. I look at it as their condition will be better now, someone will be able to get use out of them now, I will be able to get more money for them, etc.

    12. Former Admin Turned PM*

      I’ve lost my skill at wearing heels, so I pared down to just a few pair of the ones I walk best in for any instances where I might want them (black with a modest heel, tan wedge, etc.). I no longer have a closet full of heels to match every darned thing, but I have some basic colors that cover all of my needs and I’m no longer wearing the dress pants that were hemmed at the length of being worn with heels.

      I think it’s become less expected for dress up to include heels instead of a flat style, so there is less need to hang on to a big collection.

    13. ecnaseener*

      I’d probably base it on the quality of the shoes — are we talking real leather, will-last-you-for-decades shoes or plastics that will deteriorate soon if they haven’t already?

    14. Jules the First*

      I used to live in my heels…I started wearing vertiginous heels daily when I worked with a female boss who topped 6 feet barefoot (I am very much not…) and was so comfortable in them that I could run through an airport in six inch stilettos hauling a bag. Then I broke my pelvis and had to stop wearing the tallest of the heels. Then an ankle (not while wearing heels), and narrowed the number of heels in my collection. Then I had a baby and broke my ankle again and my days in heels are definitively over. I still have the whole collection of heels though, because I’m sentimentally attached. Some of them I’m slowly beginning to let go of (two years after I last wore a pair of heels), but others I might never let go of – the pair of heels made for me by Valentino’s shoe workshop after I did some work for them; the pair I wore to my best friend’s wedding; the ones that let me tower over the terrible boss who fired me and cried while she did it. I don’t have any advice for you, but I sympathise and wanted you to know you’re not alone!

    15. OaDC*

      I allow myself to have a certain amount of space in my closet for things that I’ll never wear again but just like having. Some are sentimental, some are pretty, some I can’t really explain why. I have the room, and they make me happy (occasionally, when my eye lands on them), so what’s the harm?

    16. I Have RBF*

      After I had a stroke in my 30s I could literally not walk in high heels. Not even a “low” heel. Hell, if regular flats had heels that are narrower at the bottom than under the foot, I would still risk my foot turning under and falling. So I ended up discarding my heels, most of which were not in great shape anymore.

    17. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      I suggest you arrange them all together and take an attractive photo of them, before giving them all away. If you need a pair for an occasion in the future, it would be better to then buy the most comfortable, least expensive, and blandest pair you could find. Move your beauty point to wearing sparkly earrings instead, perhaps.
      Feet and ankles just get so much more important as we get older- comfort and safety in shoes gets more relevant!

  36. Anonymous Educator*

    I know there’s a whole horrible thing about companies or non-profits trying not to pay people based on “exposure” or “experience,” but has anyone ever felt the other way?

    Like, you’re established in your career, and you want to help a non-profit that doesn’t have a huge budget (so not some huge national one with many millions of dollars), but they really couldn’t afford you at your rate, so it would almost be more insulting to get paid $200 for hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of work than to just do it for free and call it volunteering?

    Is that weird?

    1. BellyButton*

      I do this! I volunteer with Catchafire, they match subject matter experts with small nonprofits. Nonprofits could never afford me or afford to even hire a consultant to do what I do, but they desperately need help in Organizational and People development. I have worked with some really great small nonprofits and have had a blast doing it. Google Catchafire and check it out!

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Nah, I get it. Is there an option to ‘bill’ them with legit amounts and then list it as pro-bono? Then you’re re-enforcing the amount that should be offered for your services while still not actually charging them for it. (note: I have no awareness of 503c rules, so if that’s not a real option, never mind)

      1. Lurker*

        Normally the org would only recognize the value of the services as pro-bono if it’s something they would have had to budget/pay for in the first place. So for exemple if they knew they needed an attorney to help update legal documents, they would theoretically budget for that, but if they end up getting free legal help, then they can book the value (as given by the atty) as pro-bono. But if a musician was like, “Hey I’ll play piano for dinner music at your gala for free” but you never have dinner music and/or wouldn’t normally pay for something like that then my understanding is it wouldn’t be pro-bono.

    3. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

      Could you present this situation as you donating your fee back to the organization? I have done this once, and I thought it was nice that the org recognized what I was worth, and also that I wanted to do this to benefit them.

    4. Goldie*

      That is how many nonprofits exist. Nonprofits will have excellent marketing or accounting professionals or lawyers on the board or as key volunteers to advise. Some nonprofits have no employees.

      Keep in mind though that volunteer management is a chore. And that nonprofit may never or might not always be able to appreciate the high value of your contribution adequately. They might not always be able to plug into your services perfectly. Most nonprofit staff or key volunteers are run ragged.

      But leveraging volunteer services is how nonprofits make a difference

    5. Filosofickle*

      I have done a lot of this because what I do professionally is very expensive — the kind of thing small orgs need but can’t afford — and it’s the most valuable gift I can make. I toyed with scaling down fees/scopes to fit them, and have occasionally done that, but ultimately it feels better to do it pro bono rather than at a discount. Much of my work has been done through Taproot, since they handle the vetting and contract side and that makes my life easier. In the future I’ll try Catchafire as they offer much smaller engagements.

  37. MissCorporate*

    Hi

    When i started at my small company i renegotiated my contract. They pretty much accepted all my new terms. In the interview process I discussed schedule parameters w/ the hiring manager (he agreed!) FFW a schedule hiccup happened and when i spoke with him he totally forgot but also confirmed my shift with HR in my contract. IRC it’s because i brought it up to my supv. Mentioning this because it lead me to believe my manager never saw my contract and I don’t think he knew of the new terms. One of them was a pay raise after my 1st review. Raises and the like came up but I don’t think he realizes I was told I’d get one if i was doing well.

    Do I bring this up to him? Or do I tell HR and let her do it?

    1. The Unionizer Bunny*

      When i started at my small company i renegotiated my contract.

      You got this in writing? Well done!

      One of them was a pay raise after my 1st review. Raises and the like came up but I don’t think he realizes I was told I’d get one if i was doing well.

      Ask him, all nonchalant-like, for a written copy of your performance review. Print it out. Put one copy in your desk and bring another home. Then contact HR and remind them of that part of the contract. Keep the evidence for if you need it.

      1. Miss Corporate*

        Yes, HR encouraged me to negotiate everything when I brought up my schedule (after my written offer).

        I have the recording of my review (AI for note taking) and the basic word doc we put together during for notes/goals since we’re remote. My company is pretty casual.

        Okay I will remind HR I would like to revisit the performance growth/raise part.

        Thank you so much!

  38. BEC already*

    Question! I accepted and started onboarding for a new union position. After looking at the union contract, I realize that HR placed me in the incorrect pay band. Obviously the time to address this would have been before I accepted the position. I’ve reached out to my union for guidance and I’m waiting to hear back from my rep. (I’ve also worked with this union before and at times they’ve been less than helpful to coworkers). I’m thinking that I should bring the misclassification up to my direct supervisor on my first day on site. The $2/hour pay difference does not make a huge financial difference to my life, but this is a job with extreme exposure to vicarious trauma and moral injury, I would like to be paid fairly for my work, and it is already contributing to resentment towards this job. Could someone help me workshop a script for talking with my supervisor?

    Here’s what I’m thinking:
    “I’m excited to work here! I have a pay related question. I looked at the collective bargaining agreement, and HR placed me at the incorrect step rate of pay. I have 7 years post-MSW experience working with people in crisis, and HR placed me at 3-5 years. Obviously the time to address this would have been before I accepted the offer. Is there a way to now place me at the correct step?”

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Hi, I’m unionized and a union rep. Your script is perfect, minus the last sentence. This isn’t a “is there a way?” situation. Your employer is violating your contract. You need to tell them that this needs to be changed. If you get a paycheck at the wrong step, you’re owed backpay. If you get any pushback, start bugging your rep, or reach out to whoever is above them.

      1. BEC already*

        Amazing, thank you so much! Socialization + brand new job = hesitation to bring this up. I really appreciate the black-and-white clarity you’ve given!

      2. BEC already*

        Update: I talked with my union rep! They recommended that I speak with my supervisor. However, they shared there are numerous occurrences of the employer not counting highly relevant years of experience as relevant years of experience. The union is working to address this. I just do not have as firm ground to stand on as I thought. Got to love community mental health! NOT

  39. Kesnit*

    I got an idea recently and wanted to bounce it off others before I decide if I will follow through.

    I started as a public defender in April 2017. By August 2023, I was suffering from burn-out (and had been for over a year). So I applied to a few prosecutor’s offices in the area (though obviously different jurisdictions) and am about to finish my first year as a prosecutor. There are 4 attorneys in the office where I work – Glen (the “elected”), Fergus (the Deputy), Skip (the other Assistant) and me. Skip started as a public defender about the same time I did, but left after 2 years to become a prosecutor, then moved to this office about 2 years after that. Fergus started as a prosecutor in this office about 3 years ago and was promoted to Deputy when the more senior attorneys (other than Glen) left.

    Skip has been a huge help over the past year, both in making the mental transition from public defender to prosecutor as well as just learning the ins-and-outs of the job. We’ve become friends as well as coworkers. Since Glen’s job is as much administrative as legal (meaning he has meetings with political officials outside the local courts), Fergus is often the one I go to when I have questions about issues that go above routine case and charge issues. (For example, he is the one I went to when I suspected there is a “pill doctor” in our jurisdiction.) He is senior to me in title, but I have years more experience as a trial attorney (but obviously he has been practicing here a lot longer than I have).

    So my idea… I thought about getting a few bottles of what I see Skip and Fergus drinking* all the time at work and give them to each of them as a “thank you for everything over the past year.” However, I’m not sure if it would be appropriate. I think it would be for Skip, but Fergus is technically senior to me. This kind-of sounds like “gifting up,” but it’s 2 bottles of Gatorade!

    Thoughts?

    * Skip drinks Monster energy drinks. Fergus drinks Gatorade.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Yeah, this sounds like the equivalent of giving someone some home baked Christmas cookies.

      If it were $100 bottles of scotch, not so much.

    3. Benihana scene stealer*

      The no gifting up rule is a general guideline, not a law set in stone. You are completely fine in this case imo

    4. Kay*

      I was thinking something like Whistle Pig as I was reading and of course my response was nope, definitely not! Upon reading Gatorade that went out the window. This is coming from a very firm believer in the “Gifts don’t flow up” rule. This is akin to sharing homemade cookies, which is acceptable every once in a while.

    5. Hyaline*

      I’d call giving a couple bottles of Gatorade a kind gesture and say it’s fine! Anything in that range–baked goods, favorite candy–seems totally fine as a gesture of thanks regardless of “up” or “down.”

  40. Nonny*

    Any advice, thoughts, feelings, commiserations, etc. for when you are working a job and schedule due to personal constraints that is really not the best for your own strengths and mental health?

    Essentially I was laid off right as the pandemic lockdowns started to lift across the country. I decided to not pursue a new office job for myself and instead go work with my partner in their business. Basically a career 180.

    My reasons for doing so were twofold. 1. We take care of both my parents and when I was laid off, I lost the intermittent FMLA I had for taking them numerous drs appointments. Plus we have kiddo in school as well. Working with my partner kept me with a fairly flexible schedule. 2. My partner’s company took a hit during the pandemic (we do afterschool education) and at the time, me working for the company was one less outside person to hire, so more money stayed with us. Plus I’m obviously a reliable hire with transportation and will be showing up consistently. lol.

    But I really miss having an office job and talking with adults and doing work in my original field (a creative field). But going back to that work means really messing up caring for my parents and adds a lot of administrative work back on my partner and having to find at least one new reliable employee for our company. Currently, that just doesn’t make sense given our circumstances.

    I tried a bit of freelancing but I don’t have the organizational capacity for that right now. I really need the structure of having a boss and infrastructure of a job at this point.

    Anyone else in a similar position?

    1. Hillary*

      I can relate – I started a software company and while I love it I miss the office. It’s not just the people, it’s also being recognized as an expert and working on new stuff.

      I joined a business leaders group, I go to industry events, and I have scheduled 1:1 and coffees with my business partner and contractors. It isn’t perfect but it helps.

      In terms of needing structure an accountability partner can be great. But also be kind to yourself. You’re balancing a lot of plates.

    2. Double A*

      Having kids, I really try to look at “seasons” of life. You will prioritize different things during different seasons and something will always feel like it’s getting short shrift. Sometimes that antsy feeling about the thing you’re neglecting is a sign it’s time for a shift; sometimes it’s just a sign to remind yourself why things work this way right now.

      Sometime the nebulous timeline of the season is what makes it hard. Like, can you talk to your partner about a timeline that would make you comfortable in which you’ll shift away from this work? It really going to depend on your kids and finances what that will look like.

    3. Part time lab tech*

      So I have a job that doesn’t interest me and not enough bandwidth because of “everything” to change for 6 months. My colleagues are good and the culture and hours suit me. The work is data entry and I can partially WFH.
      The seasons of life attitude helps. Also a plan for change. I have a list of employers ranked by commute time that I plan on keeping an active eye open for part time jobs from October. I need to have a chat to my husband about what we can organise from February.
      Also polish up my job searching skills. I tend to interview as could do the job but we are choosing this other person. I’m not doing anything wrong but as a reserved person I don’t interview above average.

    4. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Hey Nonny, time to get a big piece of paper and imagine lots of different futures! If for example your parents’ care needs mean they will both be in a nursing home in two years, then an interim idea for you might be to find an adult class in an enjoyable group where you can be creative, engage with adults, and enjoy the shared time. For example learning how to paint botanical specimens in watercolour. So it is time out, skilled learning, happy chatting etc.
      If at the other extreme your parents’ care needs will increase over the next 25 years and you will be the one meeting these needs- now’s the time to look into whether there are outside resources who can start to be involved. These might be eg a local bus that takes seniors grocery shopping once a week, a local group who match a volunteer who calls in for a chat and a game of cards, an organisation that pairs up volunteers with people who need to be accompanied to a medical apt (and not just be put in a taxi) and so on. This could be a difficult change for your parents, and it’s likely to take a fair while to convince them that you personally will not simply be spending more and more time doing things for them as they age, when many of those things can be done by others, paid or unpaid.
      Cultural and family expectations come up here, as well as people’s personalities. But you, Nonny, like everyone else, only have one life. And your own self wants yours to be more personally fulfilling, that is 100% ok.
      My mother could have lived in her own home for longer if she had been willing to accept more in-home care, but bottom line was that she wanted that care from her own adult (fully employed) children to a greater level than was possible. She was very reluctant to move into a retirement home, and then thoroughly embraced it- I wish we had been able to persuade her 5 years sooner!
      Having said all that, look for a local class in something you will enjoy, even a short one, just to lift your mood a little right now. Best wishes!

  41. Yecats*

    Next week I will have the opportunity to talk to a candidate who will be my manager if they are hired. (I’m a software engineer on a brand-new team.) What sort of questions should I ask? I have some suggested ones but would love to hear what the commentariat has to say.

    I am also prone to crying when I talk with my managers if the conversation turns towards growth/career goals/etc. I hate talking about that stuff, it always leaves me feeling on the spot and self conscious. Is there a way to ask “So how will you handle it when I inevitably cry in front of you?” that’s not so mortifying?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      I’d strongly advise you to focus on what about that conversation makes you cry, and working on it so that you don’t cry. It is SO awkward and annoying and exhausting to deal with crying coworkers. Every once in a while is fine, it happens to nearly everyone. But having a trigger that makes you cry every time? Not work appropriate. Don’t make this poor candidate deal with that during their interview. Practice your answers to those questions, ideally with someone you trust. Don’t let it catch you off guard. I mean, you know it’s coming, so it shouldn’t leave you feeling “on the spot.” Write yourself a short script, practice it, and stick to it.

      1. Yecats*

        I would also like to not cry and have been working on it a lot. No amount of practice and preparation have managed to stop it completely so far. It’s a major anxiety trigger for me. It’s often compounded by the fact that as soon as I start to tear up I start thinking “oh no, crap, this is so awkward and unprofessional, stop it stop it!!” So this advice is not very helpful.

        1. Yecats*

          Also not what I’m asking about. I would mainly like suggestions on “What should I ask my potential new boss to see if they’ll be a good fit for me?”

          1. Morgan Proctor*

            “Is there a way to ask “So how will you handle it when I inevitably cry in front of you?” that’s not so mortifying?”

            This is, in fact, what you are asking about! It’s a full 50% of your question!

          2. Cordelia*

            I think it’s more about them being a good fit for the team though, not for you and your specific issues. I know you are not asking about how to stop crying, but it is not a behaviour that a manager would be expected to deal with, so “how does the candidate deal with Yecat’s inappropriate crying” is not something the hiring managers will be basing their decision on. You’ll need to be feeding back to them your impressions of how the candidate would manage your team, not you and your particular difficulties.
            As well as the general “management style” questions you probably already have, I might ask about their experiences and ideas about managing a brand new team – how do they address team building, staff development, what kind of culture would they like to create.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d ask about their general management style and how they support staff in their roles. If you have certain kinds of tasks that you struggle with because you need higher-level buy-in, you can ask about how they go to bat for their team with other managers, etc.

      I do think the crying thing is something you need to work on independently because I don’t think there’s a not-weird way of asking “How do you handle it when your staff have emotional outbursts in front of you?”

      I have a similar problem (and also cry when I get good feedback), but your boss talking to you about growth and career goals is so common that you shouldn’t feel put on the spot when asked about it. Spend some time working on what your goals actually are / what growth you’d like to pursue, and then practice talking about them. If the answer is “I’m actually really happy in my current role” then say that, but be prepared to offer up ideas for ways you can hone what you’re currently doing, e.g. I’m really happy in my current role, but would love to take a class on X, or attend conference Y, etc. Some workplaces always insist that you should constantly be growing/moving up, which is frustrating, so it helps to have some options that can enhance your existing work rather than move you forward.

    3. Hello*

      I wouldn’t bring up crying to the candidate! This is more of a time to ask about things like “what is your management style?”, “what is your favorite part about being a manager?”, or “how often/what is your method of evaluating employee performance?” Those are questions I’ve asked/been asked in various interviews! This is a chance to get a sense of the candidate’s personality and work philosophy–it’s probably not going to be very much about you.

      I also have a TON of anxiety about big picture career progression/goals, and have cried before in front of coworkers. It’s really hard, but it’s been helpful for me to figure out ways to distract/distance myself from the topic. Sometimes I can trick myself into thinking “this isn’t a big deal and I don’t really care,” other times it’s really helpful to try to do mental math just to keep my mind from spiraling.

      If the conversation does turn to you/your goals when talking to the candidate, then instead of feeling overwhelmed, if I were you, I’d remember that the person you’re talking to is being interviewed! They have it way worse than you and are probably super nervous too. And they may not even get the job! So whatever you say isn’t super important.

    4. spiriferida*

      In addition to the questions mentioned above, I’d ask about their familiarity with the kinds of things you and your team do – whether they’re being hired from an engineering background or a management one, or a mix.

    5. Tio*

      Focus on management style questions. How hands on are you, and how independent do you want and allow your employees to be? How often would you want to have team or 1:1 meetings ideally? How and how often do you communicate important information? How do you give and receive feedback? How would you handle a conflict between two of your reports? How would you handle a disagreement between you and a report? How do you handle discipline, is there a set progression?

    6. Awkwardness*

      I will put two links from AAM in a separate post.
      But I recommend not to ask about the crying. You want the manager to have a good first impression of you and to remember your smart thoughtful questions, not being an employee who is emotional, especially in IT.

    7. anonymous name*

      Describe a time when you had to advocate for your team/someone who reports to you. How have you guided your team’s career growth. How do you prefer to communicate with your team. What do you like and what do you find challenging about managing a team. How do you decide what to take a stand on, and what to accept. Talk about a time when you had to manage someone who you found challenging, and how you navigated it. What do you makes a team successful, and what have you done in the past to encourage that in teams you’ve managed.

  42. DoneWithItAll*

    Hey all, need some advice here. It’s been a decade since I’ve applied for anything outside of my public service organization. I’m looking at opportunities in private sector, and I wonder if LinkedIn is a valid resource for applying for jobs? I’ve posted on sites like it for my org, but any applicant that applies through those sites gets ignored, because they’re directed to apply on the org’s website (with our ATS). It seems many companies don’t have that direction on their LinkedIn posts.

    If I apply through LinkedIn, should I also apply on their website? Or just pick one and stick with it, knowing some apps may go into the void?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Pick one and stick with it. Personally I always prefer to apply directly, but for lots of places, “directly” is Linkedin. It just varies from place to place.

    2. Justin*

      You can definitely use LinkedIn for my company. So, it’s legit. Maybe not every company uses it but ours routes it to our internal system.

    3. Bitte Meddler*

      LinkedIn is valid for my profession (accounting / finance). I got my current job by flipping my LinkedIn status to “Open to Talk to Recruiters”, and then got flooded with messages from recruiters who were either internal to the company, or external and hired to find someone to fill the role.

      I think I only actively applied to 2 or 3 job postings on LinkedIn. But, after applying using LinkedIn’s platform, I did not go to the company’s site and also apply there.

    4. Student*

      I haven’t used LinkedIn but it’s similar on Indeed and I think it’s better to apply directly to the company website if that’s an option. Some small companies do use those sites for hiring, but organizations that are large enough to have their own hiring infrastructure, often just use them for marketing, and it’s not always clear which positings are soliciting applications through Indeed and which are just advertising.

  43. Paint N Drip*

    Can anyone offer me advice on my ideal scenario, where I build up my side hustle to the point where I can leave my current job. I am the only full-time administrative person (I’m talking phones, incoming email, greeting clients, paperwork, research, operations/office management.. all of it) and aside from my boss (the business owner, not able to do my job) there is one other FT person who is pretty new + an Individual Contributor, plus 2 very part time admins who are not willing or able to take over my job. Unless something amazing/terrible happens (huge client that needs me immediately/boss starts being abusive) it seems like I MUST give a long notice period to give them time to hire, then train my replacement right?
    WHEN do I do that? I don’t think I can handle 2 full time jobs, but obviously am not trying to drastically cut my income by pulling the trigger too soon.
    Is it ever going to be a good idea to “reveal my secret” before it’s time to give my notice? My side hustle DOES dovetail into my boss’ network and he is a supportive person, but not an infallible person and it’s possible that my notice/leaving will have him in his feelings a little bit.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Nope, you don’t need to do that. Don’t reveal that you’re planning to leave. Just give your 2 weeks when you’re ready. It’s not your responsibility to deal with their hiring and training issues. Your boss’s feelings are not your responsibility.

    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      No, you do not need to give a long notice period. The notice period is a custom to give time to wrap things up and set up a smoother transition once you’re gone (e.g., like creating documentation before you go). It is not a time period for hiring and training the next person. Two weeks is normal and professional.

    3. WestsideStory*

      Do not reveal your plans! Two weeks is fine. Your current job is not the company you own, you are not responsible.

      I am adamant about employees not revealing anything about my future plans, after my cousin made the big mistake of letting her company know she was in the process of buying an apartment which of course came with a mortgage.

      Her company quickly moved her to the absolute worst shift, and she’s stuck, because taking a different shift or leaving for a different job would mean a cut in salary, which she can’t afford now that she has said mortgage.

      In a country where they can fire you any time “at will,” keep your lips zipped as you grow your side hustle. It’s none of their business! Literally!

      On a personal note, long ago I once quit a job I hated that was exactly yours – the only administrative person on staff. I gave two weeks notice. The company owner famously said. “Well, now I have to hire someone else to do all this.”
      “Yup. That’s usually how it works.”
      The company survived, the one you are at will too.

    4. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

      Do not tell them you’re planning to leave. And don’t give a super long notice period. You might give 3 weeks rather than 2, as a courtesy, but only if you’d like to do that and feel that your boss has earned that from you. I gave 3 weeks when leaving a similar position, and it gave me time to document processes. Hiring your replacement is your boss’s responsibility. They’ll figure something out! When I left the similar job, my replacement was not yet hired, and you know what? Everyone survived.

    5. Alex*

      Nope, it is not your problem to manage the logistics of your departure. Give standard notice, act like that is normal, because it is, and have done with it. The small structure and importance of your job is not your problem to deal with, it is theirs!

    6. STEM Admin*

      If it’s feasible to give longer notice, it’s not a bad idea to do so in a situation like this one. You probably have a lot more control over your last day than you would if you were moving a new company with a specific start date. At the end of the day, however, it’s up to you how you handle this. Also take into consideration whether this company may end up as a client of your side hustle at some point and how important it would be to maintain a positive relationship.

  44. Justin*

    So I’m a week into a hiring process and I move very fast. I got 200 applicants, reviewed each resume briefly, and sent 13 to HR for phone screens (which HR banged through this week; glad they’re working at my pace), will be moving 5 to round 2 (which is me) then 3 of those finalists to final round (panel interview with my colleagues). Have some strong candidates. Offer will be made by second week of September at latest (only because the panels are hard to coordinate).

    This application did not require a cover letter. Some people chose to.

    I have to say that, this being an education job (but a relatively well-paid one), most of the applicants have been (far as I can tell from names) women, and the few men who have applied…. who is teaching these men how to write cover letters? Either it’s 4 pages long, or it’s basically an account of their entire career, or it’s weirdly presumptuous. And it’s not even required.

    It’s just a weird trend I’ve noticed. The women have absolutely been better candidates overall too.

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Honestly, I can’t think of a single time that I actually had to draft a cover letter as part of a lesson in any formal education setting. Maybe I’ve had it as a one time class lesson in like.. the 8th grade (US school system)? I never had a formal class on how to apply for jobs in university. I know there are job counselors in universities, but I don’t know realistically how many students are using them or know how to access them.

      Now, what’s with male having worse cover letters moreso than the female applicants? It could be simply that because you have a larger pool of female candidates to choose from, your ability to be knit-pickier with the skillsets of your female candidates is higher.

      1. Justin*

        Fair. Though with the HR screen I don’t go too in depth because so long as they have the basic qualifications I’m not that picky. There was one very bad cover letter from a female applicant but it was bad in a different way (a lot of talk about astrology making her a better trainer; I am not judging an interest in astrology but it didn’t really make sense for the context).

    2. Tio*

      No one taught me to write a cover letter except Alison, and I had to find that on my own.

      The act that the better candidates taught themselves to write better letters is just kinda what I’d expect. It tracks. The fact that they were all women is not hugely unsurprising to me. There’s potentially data in there about men having had things come easier and not needing to learn to do the extra work, but honestly even when it’s men the stronger candidates I’ve hired have always also written good cover letters

    3. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

      It’s been years since I did my degree in human communication so forgive me if I’m misremembering some of this.

      There are some extremely gendered norms baked into the way people communicate. In a nuclear family structure, it’s usually the woman in the household who is responsible for communicating with the extended family. Until relatively recently, that woman has also been tasked with a lot of the communication outside the family as well, like scheduling appointments for her spouse and children.

      Women have also traditionally been on the receiving end of certain social consequences when they communicate, like the woman who says she likes comic books and is then asked to verify that she has heard of everyone on a list of obscure characters, while a man who says he likes comic books is taken at face value. So a lot of women have learned to preemptively add their bonafides in their initial communication to avoid those follow up questions later on. And since this isn’t limited to fandom gatekeeping, a lot of women will try to be extremely comprehensive when they write their resumes and cover letters to avoid misunderstandings, and will seek out advice from professionals to make sure what they’re including is relevant and helpful. It’s learned behavior based on life inside patriarchy, basically.

      1. Justin*

        Well, yeah, that’s all messed up, but in this case, it’ll get one of them a high-paying and well-supported job. Not that that solves oppression, but I’m glad at least one of them will be working with me.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        All of this. As an English teacher, it’s always a nice surprise if there’s at least one guy on the team of English teachers, as that is not at all common these days. I actually had two male professors as a student teacher who were terrific; one of them was doing a study on the feminisation of English expertise and it’s causes. It’s an issue because boys need male role models. Once I became a teacher I definitely saw a disparity in the genders; it was definitely the case that there were/are a lot of really talented male writers who were eloquent students (who will probably go for higher paying jobs than in education), but the kids needing the most help with communicating were invariably boys. I also once had a (female) newspaper editor who was interviewing me say something like “You’re the third very eloquent woman I’ve interviewed today; it does make me wonder, where are the men!?” I hesitated to remind her that they were probably interviewing somewhere that paid more money.

  45. Blue Pen*

    Can we talk about being an introvert in a deeply extroverted office or industry? Tips, advice, coping mechanisms, anything? Last week, our office had its all-day planning retreat of presentations, discussions, brainstorming sessions, group lunches, and interactive activities. And while I participated (well, I think) in a good-faith effort, I felt like I hit a brick wall when the (optional) happy hour commenced at the very end of the day. I would’ve loved to have stuck around to chat more casually with colleagues and connect that way, but after an entire day of being “on,” I just didn’t have it in me anymore and left.

    My husband is extremely extroverted (as well as a lot of my friends), so I have a hard time explaining or getting them to understand the physical feeling of being drained at the end of a long day like this. It’s not shyness; it’s just this buzzing feeling in my skull that I’ve got nothing left to give or that the only thing that will allow me to regain my sanity at this moment is if I physically remove myself from the situation and head into a quiet environment for a while.

    Normally, I embrace my introversion. I am who I am, and I know myself well enough to know how I tick. But I’m relatively new in this office, and I can’t shake the feeling that I’m doing myself a disservice to just cut and run like that during the happy hour. But at the same time, I also know that I’m not going to be able to present at my best self.

    1. MsM*

      Is ducking out for 10-15 minute intervals and finding a quiet place to recoup a potential option for next time? If you’re still really not feeling it, you can always plead being more tired than you thought/something coming up and take a raincheck.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Similar to MsM, I try to grab quiet times during the day …take a break with headphones on (music or white noise or just silence — people usually see headphones and leave me alone for a bit), go for a 10-minute walk outside, eat food (sorry can’t talk with my mouth full), even spending a little longer in a bathroom to “do my hair” if I have to. Little disconnects from social interaction for a while. In a large group setting, I find there is usually a table of others who just want to sit quietly for a bit and bury our heads in our phones.

      1. MsM*

        Yes, food is an excellent excuse! Also offering to grab drinks for people, if you’re okay with navigating the bar: it still requires interaction, but it’s interaction with a purpose, which I always find easier.

    3. The golden typewriter*

      Not an introvert, but an ambivert who’s got extrovert/introvert friends and family.
      One of my coping tactics with parties is to grab a friend and step outside for a bit. I bring a friend so she can peer pressure me to go back in ;)
      I would highly recommend the book “Quiet (the power of introverts in a world that can’t stop talking)” by Susan Cain, it might offer some good suggestions. Also the self pub book “the introvert survival guide” by Patrick king

      1. The golden typewriter*

        Susan Cain is an introvert, a successful businesswoman, and super smart, and my introverted bro put his stamp of approval of all the strategies in the survival guide.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The thing that has worked for me in this situations is a combination:
      1) duck out for 15-20 minutes so I get some quiet time. If this is in a hotel setting, I’ll even run back to my room, wash my face, change my socks.
      2) Do the bemused observer thing for a while during the happy hour. Just listen to the extroverts rattle off their stories, chuckle when appropriate. But don’t make the effort to chip in to the fun.
      3) Have a deeper 1-1 conversation with one person part of the time.

    5. Former Admin Turned PM*

      Doing the mini breaks has always helped me a lot. Even if I have to make up that there is a family thing I have to monitor from afar (thus justifying how I duck out with my phone to a remote room for 10 minutes a few times throughout the day). Just a quick decompression time to recharge my battery, then I have more in me to spend more time at the social piece at the end.

    6. Qwerty*

      Can you take a little break for yourself before the happy hour? Show up 15-30min late after taking a moment to recharge or sit in your car. It’s like the inverse of people who make a quick appearance and leave early. If your hotel is nearby, swinging by to drop off your work bag and change into different shows can really make you feel refreshed.

      I suspect being new also adds to this and it’ll get easier when you have some coworkers who you are comfortable with and feel less like you have to be “on”.

      I also highly recommend getting to know who can carry on a conversation by themselves and parking yourself next to them if you need a minute to yourself but can’t take one of the mini-breaks others have recommended. With those people, you can kinda let your brain turn off and go on autopilot.

    7. Student*

      I recently listened to “Networking for People Who Hate Networking” and it had a lot of tips and strategies.

    8. allathian*

      I’m glad that our offsites have always had some breaks where people can either choose to continue to socialize or go off on their own. (It helps that my current boss is even more introverted than I am.) Unless the weather’s really foul, going for a walk is great for a short break. If I have time for two short (10-15 minutes is good) breaks in my own company, I’ll be able to attend and enjoy the after work part as well.

      That said, I’m usually one of the first to leave. But I have a reputation of being a morning person at work, so nobody minds when I’m one of the first to leave, even if my leaving is usually precipitated by a discreet yawn or two. So I say a cheerful goodbye/goodnight to the people I’m with at that moment and leave without making a big deal out of it.

  46. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Professional Creatives (photography, videography, graphic design, writing, motion graphics, etc.) how much out of the scope of your actual career/job description will you venture? Especially if you are in-house rather than self-employed.

    Almost all of the creative professionals I work with have some job creep… not technically their job, but they’ll cover it a bit… and I’m naturally drawn to the challenges of learning a new creative skill. But… lately I’m doing more and more “not graphic design” as a graphic designer than ever before in my job because we are so short-staffed in all positions in my department.

    I just spent the week being a photographer for studio portraits while the real photographer, and the videographer (who can also double as a photographer), were booked doing events. I took photography in college (mumble) years ago. I can definitely put together short videos with basic transition effects, or create simple illustrations that I can turn into gifs. I dabble in Premier Pro and get easily overwhelmed with After Effects. Most of my basic gifs I actually do in Photoshop.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      I’m a writer with a background and education in visual art, so I actually love going out of scope. But it’s totally up to you. If you enjoy or are interested in the extraneous thing you’re doing, then that’s great. Adds a little variety to your portfolio. But this also depends on how much power you have to say “no.”

      Also, let me just say that After Effects is so much less intimidating than it seems. It’s SUCH a good good good skill for a graphic designer to have. Please stick with it! I’m telling you that doing motion graphics is such a good add to your portfolio. All this different experience will give you a leg up once you’re ready to move on to “creative director” roles.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I appreciate the encouragement but I’m one of those that doesn’t really want to move into a management position — I’ve been a professional graphic designer for 25+ years but most of that has been in print; so motion graphics is somewhat a “totally new way of thinking” for me in a way that photography or illustration hasn’t been.

    2. Pixel Pusher*

      As a trained graphic designer, now in Production Operations for a publisher – the creep was immense. When I worked as an in-house designer, we had no project managers, so I was the project manager. Because every office I’ve worked in wants to reduce headcount, and some of what used to need a dedicated person now can be done “easily”/digitally – I was also the traffic manager, and the production designer, and the printer liason.
      Eventually I found that for me, the work where the criteria were done/not done was more satisfying than the work where the response was “make it pop” or “I don’t know what I’m looking for but this isn’t there yet.” So I will say I had so much scope creep over the years that I eventually landed in an entirely different position. I still use the skills, but differently and not as a ‘creative’ in my department. I save my creative efforts for after hours where I don’t have to incorporate anyone else’s feedback.

    3. allathian*

      I work for a goverment agency with about 1,800 employees, and two of those are graphic designers. But their job description’s very wide, so they do photography, videography (including sound design), as well as graphic design, which can be anything from designing the logo of a new service we’re launching and redoing or at least tweaking our corporate image every time a new strategy is launched (about every 5 years) to basic brochure design. We used to publish a couple quarterly magazines, one for our customers and the other for employees, although they were largely phased out. The customer magazine was replaced by our quarterly newsletter and the employee magazine by our intranet. We used to have one person whose only job was layout, but I suspect that her retirement precipitated the decision to discontinue the magazines rather than hire someone new. Since then, the graphic designers have added layout to their skill sets for the brochures and event handouts that we’re still doing. They’ve also done some animation but that hasn’t been a major part of their work and is unlikely to become that. They don’t write, though.

  47. Gandalf*

    Okay, so I yelled at my employee, Pippin. (I promise this is different from the guy the other day.)

    I run a small business with a tiny team – 5 employees, mostly part time. I mentioned to one of them that I was thinking of opening up another spot with a particular set of responsibility. Pippin said she knew someone who would be great for the role, and named a specific person, Sauron.

    Pippin knew Sauron and I knew each other. It turns out she wasn’t aware Sauron bullied me for years.

    Anyway, I reacted immediately by yelling, “we are NOT hiring Sauron!” I do know it’s not good to yell at employees, and I regret this.

    My employee panicked and started explaining all of Sauron’s great qualities and characteristics and qualifications and skills. I interrupted her, again, too loudly, to say I needed to leave and take a break, and that we could hire by posting a job ad.

    I did come back after about 5 minutes of catching my breath and calming down. When I got back, Pippin said that when I responded the way I did, I made her feel stupid and like her job might be in danger. I did apologize, reassured her, and let her know that the issue was my history with Sauron specifically – that I was happy to have her on the team and wanted her there for her opinions.

    I do think we’re OK for now – I work really hard on maintaining my relationships with my team.

    I’m wondering if any of you recommend other in-the-moment strategies for exiting a situation, as a boss, when you need to calm down before addressing your team.

    I understand an instinct to tell me to go to therapy; please understand I have more pressing priorities there.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think you handled it correctly, as long as you made it clear that you’re aware the way you reacted was not OK.
      I think an immediate deep breath and counting to five is probably the best thing you can do. Buy yourself a few seconds so you can at least make the same words come out without yelling. Maybe if you recognize that you’re taking a breath to shout, keep drawing that breath in until your lungs are completely full, then let it out slowly while counting silently instead of using it to yell.

        1. Agnes Grey*

          I do think you handled it as well as you could, and honestly it sounds to me more like you yelled *to* Pippin, not *at* her, which makes a difference, although in the moment it probably didn’t feel that way to her. Someone below mentioned trauma response and I think that goes a long way towards explaining it. I’m confident that you and Pippin will be okay.

          1. Garblesnark*

            I do think that’s a very helpful distinction, and I think I agree.

            I did have a conversation with Pippin (today and yesterday; she brought it up) where I reassured her that I’m very happy with her, not holding anything against her, and want her on the team, to feel safe on the team, and to feel that the team is a place she can share her thoughts and feelings. She did say she feels that way, but of course I am aware of the existence of lying.

            1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

              Now you do the hard part! Now let her be an adult to manage integrating her own feelings about this, while you aggressively (lol) self-regulate and connect to whatever you need that being reminded of being bullying brought up for you. Can you do a reset and let in self compassion and acceptance? And then when you see Pippin, you be warm (but not awkwardly solicitous), normal, professional, and let her get in some reps with you. She’ll see over time that what you said is true, this was a one-off response to being poked in a sore spot (like yelling and flailing when someone steps on your toe) rather than a habit of yelling and flailing at everything. She probably brings her own stuff to the interaction and your consistent steadiness will show her that you are saying the truth.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      Sorry, but you need therapy. Sure, we all have pressing priorities, but you blew up on an employee, someone you have power over, for a completely benign thing she said that you knew she did not have the relevant context for. You did it twice!! That’s so inappropriate! You’re already lording over an inherently dysfunctional situation by having such a small team. People talk. There’s nowhere to run when your own boss freaks out on you for seemingly no reason. You have some anger issues you’re taking out on someone you have power over. The reasons behind that anger don’t matter to Pippin or anyone else. The fact of the matter is that you’ve created an environment where yelling is an option and a possibility.

      Your mental health issues aren’t your fault, but they are your responsibility.

      1. Gandalf*

        I am in therapy; what I said is that there are more pressing things I’m working on in therapy. I didn’t know that she didn’t have context at the time.

        1. Kay*

          It may worth reframing this as “I just risked my livelihood” (I’m assuming the business is yours, if not – you risked your livelihood even further) and see if that makes it more of a pressing issue.

          It may be the first time this has happened, but that it happened over something so minor, and you yelled twice, makes me concerned this could spiral if not brought under control. Managing this is probably vital to keeping your job and/or keeping your employees, and hiring new ones.

      2. Awkwardness*

        You have some anger issues you’re taking out on someone you have power over. The reasons behind that anger don’t matter to Pippin or anyone else.

        That’s a bit harsh, IMHO. You cannot conclude from one incident that OP has anger issues.

    3. HonorBox*

      I think you could just try to pause before responding, especially in a situation where you feel like you could ultimately respond emotionally. I’ve been working on this myself, and allowing someone to even see that you’re thinking through what to say and how to say it can help reset the whole situation. You can take a few seconds to calm the emotional response and respond more calmly. That may even mean that your calm response is, “I need a minute.” Then you can give yourself a little more time to formulate what you need to say in the way you want to say it.

    4. MsM*

      Next time (if there is a next time, which I hope there isn’t), I’d try and take a deep breath, then head off the pitch with “I’m familiar with Sauron and their qualifications, thank you. I’d rather not get into the details, but trust me that it’s not a good idea. If you have other suggestions, I’m happy to hear them.”

      You are entirely in charge of a situation like this. Odds are Sauron doesn’t want you as their boss even if you did offer them the opportunity, which you’re not going to. Keep that in mind and respond accordingly instead of coming at the idea from a place of panic based on a dynamic you’re no longer trapped in. (And if you really can’t, just say “Could you give me a moment, please?”)

      1. Gandalf*

        I was honestly surprised by it myself. I thought Pippin knew about my history with Sauron, which was part of it, I think. Nothing like this has happened before, and I’ve been managing people for a long time.

        I do agree that I’m in charge; as soon as I’d had a minute to take a break, I saw that there wasn’t a threat.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          It’s very important to remember that the only person who will remember how you feel about someone else is you. Pippin either doesn’t know about your history with Sauron or doesn’t remember anything negative. Or had a totally different experience of the situation. That is completely normal.

        2. August already*

          Do you know why you thought Pippin was aware of your relationship with Sauron? I’ve only been in this kind of situation in Pippin’s position and that boss expected me to do a lot of mind reading. Not saying that’s what’s going on here, but I think it’s worth considering.

          1. Gandalf*

            Yes, it’s because Pippin knew Sauron at the same time, and Pippin and I spoke then, repeatedly, about how we found Sauron very difficult to deal with.

            1. WellRed*

              Difficult and bullying are two different things so I’m not surprised she wasn’t aware. FWIW, I feel like you yelled but not AT her. It’s not great but you apologized and hopefully explained.

              1. Garblesnark*

                Yes, Pippin brought it up later yesterday and again today, and I explained and reassured her.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          What you’ve described is basically a perfect storm of double-blindsiding.

          You were having a perfectly normal conversation and BOOM, you hear a name that before you can consciously think about it, spins you into a panicked, defensive yelling episode. And the same for Pippen–one second you were the guy she knows, the next a bellowing stranger. For both of you, it had to be similar to making a piece of toast and suddenly having the toaster turn on you with a knife.

          You’ve apologized, and obviously don’t want to keep blowing this up, but don’t be surprised if Pippen is wary of you for a while, and work on being even, kind, and reasonable.

    5. Panda (she/her)*

      You may have other more pressing priorities for therapy, and this might sound harsh, but IMO if you cannot manage your emotions enough to keep from yelling at your employees then you have no business managing people. While you might think things are okay with Pippin, that kind of a situation has a lasting impact on trust and relationships, and it is unlikely that it will ever be forgotten – even if you behave perfectly in future. And that is reasonable. Yelling is not okay, regardless of the situation.

      (Also…you don’t say you are in therapy, just that you have more pressing priorities. Hopefully you are getting some sort of help, even if therapy isn’t within reach at the moment).

      Back to your specific question…

      When I need a break from a conversation, I will just say “I need a break from this conversation / I think we need to take a break – let’s pick back up in 10 minutes/this afternoon/tomorrow.” Or, if you feel like you need an excuse then just say you need to go to the bathroom/fill your water bottle/grab a coffee. Will they suspect that’s not precisely why you’re ducking out? Probably – but it gives everyone an opportunity to save face and just pretend that’s the reason.

      1. DawnShadow*

        I agree completely with Panda here. It’s the power differential. It’s just not okay to yell at someone who is in your employ. You have all the power here, OP. It’s really just not that hard to keep your cool. I assume that if she were your boss, you would not have yelled, right? So you do have some control and you’re choosing not to use it because you think, on some level, that you are justified or it’s okay because she’s your employee.

        She wasn’t even doing anything wrong, not that that should matter. Even if she was doing something egregious there’s just no reason to be explosive. You direct the conversation.

        The fact that you’re coming here again so soon after yelling at an employee very recently, apparently, makes me wonder if you’re shopping for validation (and judging by some of these answers, finding it).

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Focus less on how to exit and more on how to take in information without acting inappropriately. Your initial reaction was completely inappropriate, especially to an employee. Work on listening without comment, calmly, and saying something noncommittal like, “I’ll think about it.” Or, “Let’s discuss later.” You would even have been fine saying, calmly, “I have a weird history with Sauron.” But you need to work on that initial reaction, because what happened is that you blamed your employee for not knowing your history and for not being able to read your mind, and she was rightly taken aback and extremely uncomfortable for simply offering a pretty innocuous opinion, as far as she knew.

      1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Yes, what AvonLady Barksdale said.

        Managing your immediate reaction is needs to come before exit-to-calm-down strategies.

        I’d suggest that this is a foundational skill with such broad application that it’s a great one to prioritize in therapy. Addressing this skill may even help with, rather than distract from, the more pressing issues you are already working on there.

        At least consider bringing it up to your therapist, like “Hey Therapist, I surprised myself by yelling at a subordinate at work recently, before I could step away to calm down. Someone suggested that working on managing my immediate emotional reactions could be helpful for more than just preventing situations like yelling at my employees — it might even help with the issues we’ve been working on. What do you think?”

        1. Gandalf*

          Yeah, the weird thing about it is that I /did/ work on this for a very long time, quite successfully, well over 20 years ago, and have not seen it in myself again since.

    7. The Unionizer Bunny*

      Pippin knew Sauron and I knew each other. It turns out she wasn’t aware Sauron bullied me for years.

      Anyway, I reacted immediately by yelling, “we are NOT hiring Sauron!”

      Trauma response. Work, where you’re in charge, is a “safe space”, and you weren’t expecting one of the “safe” people to propose introducing a hazard to that environment. I agree with your use of the word “threat” below.

      Managers often have to be retrained from “I’m the boss and I have absolute authority over everything here” to “I’m an equal partner with the union that represents my workers”. Sometimes, when preparing for an election, managers can be deliberately baited into Unfair Labor Practices.

      Those very same managers will then be able to exist as equal partners in the workplace, despite having literally broken the law. I’m not in agreement with the others here that “yelling” is worse, is an unforgiveable sin which instantly disqualifies you from being a manager. Union reps can shout and use salty language when communicating with management; if this is because the union is to be viewed as an equal with management, how can managers receive any less than the same permissiveness?

      1. Gandalf*

        Honestly, I think a lot of the issue is that I *already* saw Pippin as a partner with significant decision making power whose suggestions I would always take seriously, which is the only reason I *could* take something she suggested as a threat.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Although that take on things comes from a place of respect for Pippin, I think it is dangerous to downplay how much power over her livelihood you actually have. If you had more respect for that you would never been less likely to yell. She may indeed feel you take her seriously, but I cannot stress enough how that feeling of respect will vanish the moment the yelling begins. It’s lonely at the top and it’s really tempting to try and gather equals around you, and to feel like it’s obvious when you feel bullied, but you’re never really equals and it’s tricky for them to see you as vulnerable. This will have wiped out a lot of the trust and respect between you and Pippin and I think you have to drop the whole “but you should have known” and “don’t you feel respected enough to that I was feeling vulnerable” narrative which made Pippin’s level of understanding and response so surprising to you. You can have respect for your own vulnerability and trauma, of course, but you need a larger dose of awareness of Pippin’s vulnerability.

    8. Crown of Pearls*

      You need to figure out why your initial reaction was to yell. It’s not like this employee could hire Sauron against your will – you run the team. You have the power here, but it doesn’t sound like you feel that way. Someone confident in their authority doesn’t need to panic and yell and hide! Which means that Sauron still has that power over you, in your head. Can you spend some time thinking about why that is, and work on reminding yourself that you have the power here? Sauron is not in a position to do anything, your employee was just making a reasonable (to her) suggestion based on what she knows, and you were not in any danger. Could you practice taking ten seconds to breathe, settle, and respond thoughtfully so it becomes a habit? Maybe have a few neutral responses for any time Sauron gets brought up – “hmm, I’ll think about it” sort of thing, to give yourself time to get past your initial reaction.

      And really, you need to work on making sure that yelling at others is never your reaction – find ways to internalise that this is not OK, this is not the kind of person you want to be, and this is not how you will react. Repeat it to yourself, and rehearse reacting differently over and over in your head. And I hear you that you have other things to work on first in therapy, but if this ever happens again, you really do need to prioritise dealing with this – if it really was a one-off, you can move past it but if it happens again, you cannot keep managing others while risking this behavior. It’s not fair to your employees.

    9. Hyaline*

      Have you ever yelled or otherwise reacted in an inappropriate way in the office or other places you should have had more control before? If this is literally a one-off, honestly, I think you’ve done the right thing to apologize, and the key is continuing to reassure Pippin and the rest of the team by your actions and demeanor (not by bringing up frequently!). There could be a lot of reasons, from trauma response, to sheer surprise, to overwhelm at the cascading situation…and if it’s really a one-off thing, I don’t think you’re well-served digging too deep to course-correct a behavior that isn’t persistent. However, if this isn’t the first time, or even if you’ve struggled to keep a lid on it in the past…yes, I’m with others here who are suggesting that you need to consider how to better control reactions to emotionally charged information or situations. You can’t really exit gracefully without maintaining that initial control. And to know why you’re losing control, you probably do have to do some digging–is this a fear response? Frustration? Anxiety? Do you feel out of control in situations like this? Why is it triggering the fight of the flight or flight or freeze? If it’s literally only that the mere mention of Sauron puts you in this panic mode, I do think it’s worth exploring that and coming to a healthier place with what sounds like a very bad experience, but if this is a consistent struggle, yeah, you absolutely need to get to the bottom of it so that you can maintain control of your emotions and then gracefully exit.

      You say you’re in therapy already. It makes me wonder if you’re working through some stuff that seems totally unrelated, but actually is very related to whatever feelings sparked the yelling. It might be worth bringing up–“I’m not sure this is related, but I scared the heck out of myself yelling at my employee last week…”

      1. Garblesnark*

        I have never had an issue with lack of control on a management situation, no. Everyone I’ve ever managed has a long history of complimenting my management unprompted, to the point of people I managed very briefly finding me years later to thank me for how I managed them. That’s why I find this concerning.

        1. Garblesnark*

          Okay, everyone I’ve ever managed is hyperbole. But a plurality of people I’ve managed have given specific compliments I think we’re genuine about how I managed them.

        2. Hyaline*

          What about outside of a management situation? I guess I’m asking–I’m reading this as “I was startled/unprepared and reacted very strongly with an emotionally uncontrolled and inappropriate response” and in this case it had the very unfortunate combo of being at work, when you were in the position of a manager. But does that *response* happen other times? I’d address it if so, because if the response has happened other times, this isn’t isolated to work, but it happened to occur at work this time and it could occur at work again.

          That is, if you’ve always kept it together at work, but you respond this way with family, with your DnD group, at church meetings, with whoever–then it’s time to look into it. If it was truly, truly isolated–I think the problem is with Sauron not only taking up real estate in your brain but poisoning the whole neighborhood in there.

  48. FlatStanley*

    How to stand my ground and speak up to a senior coworker?
    I am working for a client who has multiple separate projects with my company that all overlap. I am working on a smaller project, while my senior coworker is working on a larger one, but there is overlap that requires us to work together. We are copied on emails and invited to each other’s meetings for awareness and coordination. But recently he has been taking charge on my scope.
    For example, I had an issue that I asked advice on, and he steamrolled over me to investigate, conduct meetings, and solve the problem. However he didn’t include me in the process. He specifically used the words “my problem” “I need to solve” etc, instead of “our problem” or “you need to solve”. I reminded him that this was my project to handle, and I needed to be consulted on decisions, but he said “you have no experience in this, so I need to solve it and I need to handle it.” He is now trying to run meetings that I am in charge of, and modifying my project schedule without talking to me.
    How can I tell him to knock it off and give me back my project, when he already rejected what I said before? There is a 30+ year experience gap and gender difference.

    1. HonorBox*

      I think I’d find a time that isn’t directly involving this project. Let him know that there are areas of overlap, and you need to be able to be lead and be involved with those areas that are under your purview. He needs to know that this will likely happen in the future and you need to know that you’ll be able to lead your own areas of the projects.

    2. BellyButton*

      You are going to have be very clear in a conversation, followed up by an email, and then possibly involve a manager.
      “Steamroller, taking over my project, meetings, and making changes to my project schedule is unacceptable. Please stop. Despite the overlap, this is my project and I am in charge of making these decisions and running my meetings.”

      If he rejects this and starts making excuses Stop him in his tracks “Despite the differences in experience I am capable of running this project, and by steamrolling over me you are undermining my expertise and stifling my development. If you aren’t able to stop we will need to speak to manager.”

    3. CubeFarmer*

      Information: did this guy get removed from a part of the project that you’re handling and he’s trying to weasel his way back into the client’s good graces?

      1. FlatStanley*

        I see why you think that, but no. He actually joined the company and project 6 months ago. I’ve been with this client for a year and with the company 4 years. I think part of the issue is he is used to running mega sized projects without help/collaboration. He could handle both projects easily himself. Not my industry, but think along the lines of he’s designing a mansion and I’m designing the coordinating pool house. We share an office, vendors, and resources, but billing/schedule are separate.

    4. Hyaline*

      As his project is larger, and yours is smaller, is it possible he’s perceiving your thing as just a part of his thing (or has decided that your thing is just part of his thing), and therefore he has oversight on both? Since you’ve already pushed back clearly on his overreach and he hasn’t even feigned pulling back or ceding control (which would suggest to me he knew it was an overstep), it might be helpful to act like the problem is “unclear lead responsibilities” even though it’s reading as straight overstep. I might try asking him to kind of “draw a line through the sandbox” between the two of you–“I’ve noticed that our projects are experiencing more overlap recently. I’d like to meet to make sure we’re both on the same page on what our responsibilities are.” If he refuses, or claims that he truly is in charge of things you KNOW you’re supposed to handle, you can attempt to push back, and if he’s not budging, you’ve got a clear issue to bring to a manager.

  49. Feeling forgotten*

    I’m feeling a bit overlooked and don’t want to end up on the resentment-to-burnout train again. I was recently awarded a rank promotion (yay!). At the time it was announced, about 6 months ago, our department head congratulated me in an all-department email and said the department would formally recognize my promotion once it was active at an all-department meeting in July. This did not happen and it’s obvious to me it was overlooked in the shuffle of other business.

    As mentioned, I don’t want to be taken for granted and I’m disappointed I didn’t get a chance to have my promotion celebrated by my colleagues. At the same time, I was recognized privately in other ways, with a merit raise that was higher than average, for example.

    Perhaps also worth mentioning is that I specifically shared my concerns about being overlooked (for meaningful work opportunities) to my supervisor earlier this year and she assured me I wasn’t (I have the feeling this is why I got the large raise). Is it worth reminding my supervisor that my promotion wasn’t celebrated in July as originally announced? Or would this seem petty?

    1. CubeFarmer*

      Do you have regular, all-department meetings? If so, ask your supervisor to include your promotion announcement in the next meeting’s agenda.

      1. Feeling forgotten*

        Yeah, I can do that. It feels uncomfortable to ask for recognition, but it sounds like it’s acceptable to do so.

        1. CubeFarmer*

          You aren’t asking, you are reminding your supervisor of an announcement she offered to you. “I’d like to confirm the promotion with the rest of the department.”

      1. Awkwardness*

        I am wondering this too.
        Making it “official” and clearly communicating your new position is good practice and you can ask for that. Asking for a party would seem a bit petty.

  50. CubeFarmer*

    We’re hiring at my organization, and we’ve received a handful of middling applications.

    Job seekers, here are my notes to far:
    1. PROOFREAD. We had someone who copied and pasted a portion of her cover letter twice. The letter starts, and then restarts mid sentence.
    2. Write an actual cover letter, even if it’s an email. It can serve an an example of your writing. Use Alison’s advice and don’t summarize your resume in the cover letter. Tailor your cover letter to the job, and don’t use generalizations.
    3. On that note, don’t use AI to write your cover letter. Seriously, it’s noticeable and it’s a little creepy.
    4. Some of our applicants are coming from out of state. While this is fine, we’re in a HCoL area, and I would like some acknowledgement that they need to relocate (we are hybrid but some of our work requires us to visit sites in our area.) It doesn’t need to be much, something like, “I’m choosing to relocate to a larger urban area,” or “I’ve always wanted to live in Llamatown.” because I don’t want them thinking that living 2+ hours away from the office will be a tenable situation long term. We’ve had a couple of colleagues over the years who had crazy commutes, and it started to wear on them after about six months.
    5. Don’t have all the qualifications the description lists? So what! Apply anyway. You never know. Really, I’ve seen some applications from people who don’t have the experience we want but who seem to be really motivated at this point in their careers (at least on paper.)

    1. The golden typewriter*

      Thank you thank you thank you
      You really made my day. The job seek is really hard some days

  51. Hypoglycemic rage*

    Hi y’all. I need some perspective.

    Basically, my job is as an office admin at a law firm. Part of my job is sorting the mail, and one specific paralegal gets about 90% of it, mostly on behalf of clients she works with. We scan her mail as she gets so much (and most of the office is on a hybrid schedule).

    But doing the mail isn’t my only job, and especially since they let my co-admin go a couple months ago, it’s been a difficult balance. With the amount of mail this specific person gets, the entire mail process could take a couple hours.

    So, a couple weeks ago I asked my manager if we could change this process. Part of it involved a specific naming scheme for each specific piece of mail (that I think my co-admin developed as this was news to my boss). It’s just a lot – even with a co-admin, it’s still a lot. There used to be one specific person whose job it was to scan the paralegal’s mail, but they left sometime during the pandemic and then it was shoved on to my department.

    At first, my boss said that this paralegal could scan her own mail, that she knows how things go and that scanning is a courtesy. But I guess that didn’t work because eventually my boss talked with her own boss and we have a legal secretary helping out, as well as changing how we name the files. It’s not a perfect solution, but it greatly helps the amount of mail-related stress I have every day.

    I’m wondering if I should apologize to this paralegal as I didn’t realize how crucial scanning the mail is for her. It’s not something that’s always been done, but I think she got accustomed to it since the pandemic. Granted I’m not sure if she even cares about the new process as her stuff is still getting scanned to her.

    However, I do not regret bringing this up, even if it meant changing the process. My department does not report to this one specific paralegal, we support the entire office. And there’s a lot that I do that she probably doesn’t even realize – which is fine, but doing the mail is not my sole purpose at work.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think you should apologize to her, especially since the scanning is a courtesy.

      You said most of you are hybrid but it sounds like she’s full time WFH if she isn’t in the office to pick up the mail physically at least once a week. Can you set up a mail auto-forwarding thing for her, so that it goes to her house instead of to the office? Or can you just have it couriered to her instead? The amount it costs to send a courier once a week is surely less than the hours you spend scanning everything for her.

      But also why is she getting so much more mail than everyone else? Who is the mail from? Did she check a box on a form somewhere in the court system that said “Send me physical copies of everything” that could be corrected so she just gets it by email? I’m so confused about someone getting so much more mail than other people who do a similar job.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        Oh no, she’s in the office a few days a week (usually), but the stuff gets scanned no matter if she’s in or not. But now we have other people helping out, so it’s not on me all five days a week. The scanning is a courtesy, technically, but I think for this specific paralegal it’s kind of a requirement. (When she found out we initially were not scanning stuff to her anymore if she was in, she was clearly pissed and marched right on over to my boss’s office.)

        I am not sure why she gets so much mail. A lot of it is on behalf of clients she works with, and some of them set up their address as our firm, so every. single. piece. of mail they get comes to us – but it’s on this paralegal to take it from there, even if it’s clearly junk mail (which isn’t scanned but we just drop it off).

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Okay if she’s in the office sometimes, then this is just ridiculous! The only stuff that should get scanned is if she’s a) not in the office, and b) it looks like something legitimately important, i.e. the return address is from the court, the DA, the probation system, whatever. Anything that looks remotely personal doesn’t get scanned; you should think of that as “junk mail” as much as the actual junk mail.

          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            THANK YOU! I feel validated now. :’) nobody else here thinks this is excessive. and again, this isn’t something we’ve always done for her, but she got used to it during the pandemic and now we have to do this. I can’t change this, or (more likely) stop it, but the process is now slightly better, which is way better than my boss being like “lol sorry suck it up.”

            but again, thanks for the validation.

          2. MSW*

            From the perspective of a paralegal, this is not a ridiculous request and SOP in the law firms I have worked at. Many paralegals work in areas that require electronic versions of communications be saved/filed immediately. I also assume she bills her time, and even at a paralegal’s rates, no client is going to be psyched to see that they’re paying for someone to scan documents. It’s typical to have the admin you and the attorney work closely with scan the mail and for the paralegal to then review and save/send as appropriate.

            That’s not to say that you have to apologize – you didn’t know and you found a new system that works, yay!

            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              Right, but it’s *not* SOP at hypocglycemic rage’s firm, it sounds like: “scanning is a courtesy.” They even tried to get the paralegal to scan her own mail because it’s not a requirement of the admin team.

            2. hypoglycemic rage*

              yeah, we have other paralegals at the firm i work at – in a different department than this one – and we don’t scan their mail unless requested or they’re working remotely or something.

              so, it’s not SOP at my firm, like caramel & cheddar said (whose name i love btw).

              2. Ellis Bell*

                It sounds like her area of expertise could use that requirement though? If not her boss wouldn’t have backed her up on it. It’s hard to say without knowing why she gets so much mail and why. I think just like she doesn’t fully understand your role, you might not understand hers.

                1. Ellis Bell*

                  Oh but that’s not a need for apology by any means. You raised a valid issue. If anything, I might mention that it seems more important to her than other paralegals and you’re interested in why as you’re part of the workflow.

                2. Hypoglycemic rage*

                  That’s totally fair, I don’t fully understand her role, I just know that we have to scan a lot and that can be a lot. But I guess I could ask her why this is, that might help if I had more context. :)

                  My boss talked to her own boss (my grand boss). I don’t actually know if this paralegal has an actual “boss” or if her bosses are the different lawyers she supports…. I’m assuming she has a boss of some kind, but I don’t think they were involved in this discussion.

          3. kalli*

            It’s SOP at my firm that everything is scanned and goes on the digital file. If something comes in by email and the email with it attached is on the file, it still goes on the file itself. Everything has to be named by date – type of document – who created it. Most people are 100% in-office, but they still need to be able to pull up the file on their laptop if they’re in court, and the digital file is now the only complete file we use – we keep a paper file for compliance, but everything is scanned.

            Not scanning everything is an out of date SOP.

            It’s also not for a mail clerk to judge – they don’t have training or time to read everything and decide whether it’s important enough!

            The problem here is that there’s too much work for the system that was in place, and that can only be fixed by throwing more hours, preferably someone else’s, at it.

            1. Hypoglycemic rage*

              Thank you for explaining your SOP!

              Yeah I didn’t know that someone else’s entire job was scanning all the mail this one person gets. I’m assuming she was either part time or maybe did other things as she could in her day, but then my department absorbed this task.

              1. kalli*

                My entire job is filing things people scan and get by email, and “everything else the assistants run out of time for” and I will sometimes log in to like, 70 emails of SCDM-0001-a, SCDM-0001-b, etc. and have to rename and file them. It sounds like someone way high up was just like ‘oh it’s mail, no big deal’ and didn’t understand that there’s a reason it’s the way it was, in that it’s a lot of mail and it can’t be sped up or incorporated in another process, and they needed to be told that. I do hope you get it taken off your plate entirely once they get a better sense of what’s going on!

    2. Hyaline*

      No, you don’t need to apologize. You had a workflow issue that you raised with your boss; it took some time to find an appropriate solution. That’s not your fault or anyone’s fault, and no apology is necessary. If anyone might apologize it’s your boss who could have perhaps checked with the paralegal before pulling the scanning support she counted on/was used to, but it’s definitely not your mistake, and in reading your question, maybe a decision that will ultimately need to be made anyway (90% of the mail!?! Sheesh.)

      1. Hypoglycemic rage*

        I wish I were exaggerating the amount. Even if I had another co-admin who could help answer phones or set up conference rooms, it can be overwhelming.

        But this has been in process for this paralegal for years and she’s gotten used to it so we won’t be totally stopping it anytime soon. (I don’t know how much of this is because it actually helps or because she’s just gotten accustomed to it.)

        Hopefully the new process helps!!

      2. kalli*

        Seconded; the paralegal is not mad at you personally, the matter has been resolved at their level, it’s something that’s a management issue that they need to deal with better and it’s not your monkeys to own.

        1. Hypoglycemic rage*

          Thank you for this. I spent awhile thinking this paralegal was mad at me personally but you’re right that it’s a management issue. I raised a valid concern – even if scanning should be SOP, as it sounds like it is other places – there’s still a workflow issue that needs to be solved. Scanning mail is not my sole job and we now have a process in place to help with that. I really really hope this process stays or that, if it does change, that we not go back to the way things were done.

    3. Qwerty*

      I don’t see a need to apologize – you inherited a second persons job and your boss was involved in whether to prioritize the scanning.

      To cut down on the scanning process – your office may want to look into “patch codes” Basically you put a sheet of paper with a special code (looks similar to a QR code) in between each document and that tells the scanner that it is now scanning a new file. My office uses this to bulk scan our mail. The mailroom guy opens the mail, puts in a pile, then lays a patch sheet on top. Then opens the next piece of mail, puts it on top of the file, adds a patch sheet. Repeat until mail is all ready. Then put big stack of mail in the autofeeder and hit go – it scans all 100+ pages and saves the 20-50 files onto a shared drive. If you go this route, run a couple tests to make sure it is configured correctly for double sided scanning.

      1. Hypoglycemic rage*

        That won’t be something my firm does because they won’t want to pay for it but that sounds AWESOME!

  52. Aye Nonny Nonny*

    So I “rebadged” to the outsource company last week. Mostly I have felt relief at no longer reporting to my Jerkboss, though they still manage the work itself. And that’s where we’re hitting major snags.

    Turns out an important and often urgent task was taken away from my role. Fair enough as it’s a task I hate. The problem is it was reassigned to a new role – that doesn’t go fully live until the end of September when those folks go from Old Company to Outsource Vendor. So now we’re left hanging with customers needing this done – often at short notice – but no clear path on how to proceed. Also note that it’s the most highly regulated and high-dollar task involved in our jobs.

    Hoo boy. I know I should move on but meanwhile I need popcorn…

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If you have a preferred way for this to be handled, whether that would be for you to take it on or someone else, this is a great opportunity for having an “off the cuff” conversation where you suggest the solution that you like and then leave it on someone else’s plate to decide.
      It isn’t your circus, but you may be the monkey, so get them on the path the way you want them to decide and step to the side.

  53. Lemon.Pepper*

    I have an interview coming up for a job at a place I interviewed for late last year and am looking for some advice on how to handle it. I was offered the role and turned it down because it wasn’t quite the right level for me but I gave a different reason so as not to seem like I wasted everyone’s time (the offer came quickly and I panicked!). The upcoming interview is for the role managing the role I turned down, so is pitched more where I want to be career-wise.

    I’m unsure who is on the interview group and it’s entirely possible it’s comprised or some or all of the people who interviewed me last year. As part of the application I was asked if I’d applied before and I explained that I had but had declined an offer due to circumstances which had now changed. If the interviewers don’t bring up that I’d interviewed/declined the junior role should I? Or should I approach it like a stranger who has never crossed paths with the company before? Part of me feels like I should address it somehow but I worry this will work against me somehow.

    1. HonorBox*

      I wouldn’t bring it up. If they do, have an answer ready. You don’t need to be 100% honest, but if you can indicate that it wasn’t in line with your career path at that point, or something like that, you’re not saying something negative about the role.

    2. Benihana scene stealer*

      I would bring it up – if you got an offer you must have made a pretty good impression, and if this is the same department it seems like a good chance some of the same folks would be in the interview process.

      As someone who hires, it would look stranger to me if you didn’t say anything at all and then I found out later you had interviewed here just a few months ago

  54. Green Goose*

    Is it reasonable to ask to have your direct manager’s calendar visible to you? My current boss runs a lot of personal errands during the work day (which is a whole other thing) and her calendar is private. I never know if she is in a meeting on-site or just has a reminder for herself. She’s not an easy person and when I’ve asked in the past about seeing her calendar she’s ignored my request.

    I know this is something that is up to her, but I’m curious if other’s can see their direct manager’s calendar? The first seven years at my previous company I could see calendars but after a leadership change the new leaders all privated their calendars, even to their direct reports. I had thought it was really weird, but now that my new boss is doing it too, maybe this is just the way it is?

    1. MsM*

      My manager’s calendar is entirely private. I think you just need to assume that if something is blocked off, it’s blocked off and it doesn’t matter why, or ask “Is your 10:30 appointment firm, or can you shuffle some things around? I really need to talk to you about X, and I don’t see another time to do it.”

    2. Justin*

      It depends on the company. At my current job everyone can see everyone’s calendar, up to and including the CEO. If we’re doing personal stuff we usually just write “busy” or “appointment” and it’s understood so long as we don’t abuse it and get our work done.

    3. Panda (she/her)*

      In my experience, being able to see calendar details is unusual – especially employees seeing their managers’ calendar. I don’t share my calendar details with anyone other than my direct manager and my C-suite’s EA, partly because some calendar invites are quite sensitive and I don’t want to worry about forgetting to make something private (such as a disciplinary meeting or discussions with HR).

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Unless you’re managing someone else’s calendar for them, I would never expect to see the details if someone’s calendar. I assume if there’s a block in the calendar, they’re unavailable.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      Depends on company culture in a lot of ways. Last job, everyone on my team shared calendars, including up to the director, and if you wanted a private entry, you specifically labeled it private. This job, everyone just has free-busy.

      That said, I’d expect a manager sharing with direct reports to be less likely than coworkers sharing or an employee expected to allow their manager to see their own calendar.
      Managers have a higher chance of having a work-related meeting be something that shouldn’t be shared with other direct reports – if a coworker is having issues, for example, and the manager is having a lot of one on one’s with them.

    6. mannerager*

      I’m a little confused as to why it matters whether she’s running errands or in a meeting, since presumably you can’t “access” during those times regardless. Are you trying to figure out whether you can interrupt her with a time sensitive request? Hoping she can answer calls while running errands? Or is there another problem, like she often just takes off early if she’s already planned to run errands late in the day and you really need her back.

      I’m a manager who needs to be available for my employees and I made my calendar public, so they can see the details of work related meetings. I did this so people can see when I’m interruptible and when I’m not. I also use the tentative status for meetings I could skip if needed. For errands, I write “leave” and make myself as out of office for my status.

      1. Green Goose*

        It’s probably just a preference of mine I guess. I have also found it hard to schedule meetings with larger groups, and since I don’t know if her “meeting” is “remember to get lemons” or “meeting with Marketing team” I never know what is really a blocked out time. I also find it a bit unnerving how she’ll just disappear for hours and then log on at the end of the day with a “time sensitive project” that she asks for at 4:30pm on a Friday (this has happened).
        There are also times when I Slack her a question and never hear back and it would be helpful to know if she’s left for the day and then I know to not expect a response.
        I just don’t really know her working hours, and it makes me anxious to not know if she’s gone for the day or if I’ll get a surprise project when I’m trying to wrap my day up.
        I guess my reasoning for calendar visibility I’m thinking I’d have a better idea of what the day will be like.

        1. Kay*

          I think this is less about the calendar and more “I don’t particularly care for my boss or how they do things” (which for the most part you just have to accept) and “This is how I prefer to work”. It isn’t particularly out of the norm for your boss to have a private calendar or to be doing things you aren’t privy to.

          It doesn’t really matter if she is out for lemons or has another meeting – if her calendar is blocked off can you just think of it as an across the board “boss is not available for a meeting at this time”? Can you use email instead of Slack and just accept you may not get an answer immediately? You didn’t say whether the 4:30pm request meant you would need to stay late, but if it would, you can simply set boundaries and say “I have to leave at 5pm today and won’t be able to finish this”?

          There may be some managing up you can do (though it doesn’t sound like there is much room for that), but ultimately it sounds like this may be more “can you accept this is your boss’s style and work within that” or “am I better suited in a different position”?

          1. Cj*

            I think the problem is that she’s not actually out to get lemons, she’s actually available for another meeting to be scheduled. it’s just a reminder to her to get lemons on the way home or something.

        2. Garden Pidgeons*

          I think you can name these three problems and ask for her input:

          – it’s hard to schedule meetings with larger groups – what’s the best way for you to tell what meetings are ‘soft’? (Marking things as tentative would probably give you what you need here, without risking making HR meetings that really should be private public.)

          – you don’t know her working hours (so you don’t know whether to expect a response to your messages) – what are they?

          – getting a surprise project when you’re trying to wrap your day up is disruptive – obviously sometimes things do come up, so if this has only happened once I might not raise it, but if there’s a pattern it’s worth asking whether there’s anything you could do to anticipate them, or whether she can set expectations on timelines better, etc.

    7. Alex*

      My manager’s calendars have always been private apart from “is free” or “is not free.” Except for a few months when my former boss accidentally set it public lol. And I totally snooped.

      Is there a business reason you need to know what your boss is occupied with? If her calendar indicates her busy, I’d just assume she’s busy. If it comes up that she says “oh, actually I wasn’t busy, you could have found me at that time” I’d just say Oh your calendar said Busy so I didn’t realize. And she can do what she wants with that information.

    8. But maybe not*

      In academia. I’ve always asked that my managers (faculty) share their calendars with me and only one told me no. He said he had too many people who could put stuff on his calendar already. I tried to explain to him I wasn’t asking for delegation authority but he didn’t understand so I just always checked with my coworker who did have access.

      People are asking why you would want this and you alluded to this below, but it’s just way easier for scheduling to know what may be flexible, what may take them off campus, what’s a recurring meeting that I know they always skip, what’s not a real appointment, etc etc. If my managers were good at replying to my requests to give their availability it would be one thing, but they pretty much never are…

    9. allathian*

      In my org, I can see everyone’s calendar up to and including the CEO’s (even if I have no reason to look at it).

      The calendar’s intended to show availability and we have a lot of flexibility in our working hours, so people tend to flag their personal appointments private and it just shows them as busy or away. Our work meetings are generally open, but they can be flagged private if the subject of the meeting is one that’s best not shared with the whole organization.

      That said, one thing I don’t like much about my organizational culture is that it’s very meeting-heavy in some positions, especially for managers. So people tend to book meetings with you regardless of whether or not you have that time free in your schedule. I think the largest number of simultaneous meetings I’ve seen on my manager’s calendar is 5…

      That said, I had an issue with an, in my view, oversharing manager, and I was happy that I could persuade her to flag her private appointments, including medical ones, private. She’d always worked for cultures where working hours were pretty sacrosanct and she had to ask her manager’s permission to take PTO for medical appointments, etc. She still had some of that mentality left when we’d been implementing our current flexible working hours for a couple years. What worked was when I told her that I only looked at her calendar to see when she’s available and that the reasons for her absences were irrelevant from my point of view. And they were because I literally didn’t care if she took a long lunch hour to go to the doctor or to go shopping. Then I asked if it bothered her that she didn’t know why I was absent from work in the middle of the day, and she looked slightly puzzled and said “Of course not, it’s none of my business as long as your job gets done.” When she articulated that to me, I guess she realized that the same thing applied to her, and doubly so because she was my manager. And she did start flagging her appointments private after that, fully in line with our organizational culture.

  55. Space Cadet*

    Hey AAM readers, what jobs/ careers (other than direct care healthcare) are active but not strenuously so?
    I’m looking for roughly 50% moving around, 50% at a desk.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Things like public service customer service can be fairly active for a sedentary position. You’re at a computer, then you’re getting your next customer and bringing them to your desk or whatever. Librarian is more moving than that.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Yeah, as a librarian I feel like my job is neither completely sedentary nor active. I’d say in my role it’s more like 60% at a desk, 40% moving around.

    2. shrambo*

      I worked in consumer IT repair for a couple years and it was roughly 50-50 in terms of standing/sitting. When it was slow, you were sitting at the reception desk writing up tickets and taking phone calls. If there were items waiting on a repair, you were at the standing work areas in the back of the office taking apart computers, fetching new parts from the storage room, walking back and forth from the front desk to receive incoming customers, etc.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Photography and videography — although there is some equipment schlepping so I’m not sure how much is strenuous for you. You’ll spend time on your feet moving around and then time at a desk editing photos.

      Tour guide — especially if your clientele are seniors. Time walking and time sitting (although not at a desk probably) A docent at a museum or cultural site would probably be about the same… time sitting and then a tour.

    4. Cathy*

      Lab tech/ research scientist. I loved having a physical part of my job- now I’m an accountant and sit at a desk all day. It’s a killer.

    5. KnittingattheBaseballGame*

      I work in occupational safety and it’s a good mix of desk and active (walking) work.

    6. Janne*

      My colleagues in the pathology lab (Lab technicians) had a walk/sit ratio of about that – lots of walking around with samples, lots of walking across the lab to get things, then quite some administrative work too and analyzing the results of the tests in the computer.

      I only analyzed test results so I sat at a desk all day – really hard to find companions for a lunch walk when they’ve already been walking all morning.

      I don’t know where in your career you are and how much you want to study before switching jobs, but they studied 4 years (Bachelor’s degree) to do this. Some studied less because they already had experience in a related career.

    7. Part time lab tech*

      Someone suggested real estate assessor when I asked a related question last week. Possibly surveyor? The equipment doesn’t look extremely heavy. Maybe site auditing?
      Confirm that lab tech/sample reception has approximately that ratio.

    8. GythaOgden*

      Property management, particularly in commercial or public service properties. Even senior managers do some walkaround legwork and there’s also a lot of variety right up the hierarchy. I enjoy it myself as a junior admin and although I’m not mobile enough to go into actual site management, I’m enjoying the opportunity to at least get a feel for how things get done behind the scenes.

  56. Grumpy Lobbyist*

    I work for a nonprofit organization doing public policy and advocacy. We have several events coming up where we historically have invited members of Congress to speak for a couple minutes during the event. After receiving the all clear, we sent out the invitations back in June. We just got updated guidance saying that they can no longer speak at the events. If they do, we need to submit a form and all that. My boss is extremely hesitant to have them speak. I stated that I would be on site during the speech, we can have reminders about being a 501c3, and historically, we have never had issues with our congressional delegation. He still wants me to say that they can no longer come and speak at the event. I believe that this will irreparably harm our relationship with members, both organizationally and myself as a lobbyist. Does anyone have thoughts on what I can do here?

    1. HonorBox*

      I would guess that if you followed up with those members and indicated that your organizational guidance has changed and you need to be clear of political messaging, they’ll be understanding. Their schedules are so busy anyway that they may not think twice about it.

    2. MsM*

      Bolder Advocacy is a good resource for navigating the line on acceptable c3 activities. I do think as long as all the language advertising the event is clear this isn’t an endorsement and the public officials themselves avoid anything that sounds like a stump speech or endorsement of specific legislation, you’re probably in the clear, but it does get particularly tricky during election season.

    3. Goldie*

      I’ve worked for elected officials and nonprofits. They will get it sbd are already very busy. Just let them know that rules have suddenly changed. Be thankful. The elected probably didn’t even know it was on their calendar and won’t know it was taken off.

  57. cresl*

    Just a vent in a more anonymous forum than my social medias :)

    I have a new manager (after my old one was unceremoniously let go for personality differences…which is a different kettle of fish) and he seems great so far generally.

    We were putting together an executive summary for the top leadership and I was providing the data I thought was most relevant and he was working on the write-up.

    Well, he made the mistake of sharing the write-up with me and I went in and changed, like, every sentence. It just wasn’t well-written: too heavy on corporate jargon and clunky sentences that didn’t even get the point across. I have a lot of confidence in both my writing and editing abilities, so I felt good about the changes I made.

    And he agreed! He said it was 1000x better. I told my coworker that hopefully our manager will run all written word by me first from now on.

    But he won’t. A couple weeks later he said that his favorite thing is “wordsmithing” and I said “Yeah me too of course” but it sounds like he also has a lot of confidence in his writing and editing and, unless he wants specific feedback on the data elements, will be unlikely to run things by me. And that will be fine as long as I never see the finished product that gets provided to leaders. They might even prefer his style (corporate jargon may have its place after all).

    (I’m not clear on whether it would be my job or my boss’s job to create these reports. I think it should be me but he probably thinks it should be him, and it’s not a hill to die on this early, and he loves wordsmithing! And I can do data stuff that he can’t. So.)

    1. Panda (she/her)*

      Unless he specifically asked for your thoughts on the write up, I’d say you overstepped by going in and editing it (particularly since your edits were extensive), and I’d be pretty upset if someone did that to me. I’m not surprised he isn’t sharing other drafts with you, and it’s not your place to critique his work – sure, maybe it’s bad, but if so then HIS managers will tell him that. Or maybe it’s not! Maybe it’s perfect! You don’t know because he has information you don’t.

      You didn’t ask for advice, but you did post in an advice forum so you got some. I think you’re overreacting by needing to “vent” about something that…isn’t a big deal,

    2. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

      My manager also writes like this. They rely too much on ChatGPT and the thesaurus function in Word, and and every document and email come out as run-on, flowery corporate-ese. It kind of makes me want to scream! But honestly, I have to remind myself that it’s not my responsibility to change or manage this, and it would look super weird if I were to try. Is it frustrating and annoying and cringey? YES. Is it worth letting go and living with it? Also yes. In the end, he’s known to be the person who wrote it, leave it with him.

    3. Pop Six Squish*

      Wow. Yeah, I’m really not surprised he’s not asking you to look at this stuff after you did that! If that’s the worst consequence, I’d say you got off lightly.

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      I think him saying that wordsmithing is his favorite thing was his indirect way of letting you know that you won’t be reviewing his work.

      I had a boss who was a terrible writer. Random punctuation, mismatched noun/verb, misspellings, etc. I only intervened if what he wrote literally made no sense or if it led the reader to a different conclusion than I knew he was going for. In those instances, I either printed out what he’d written and gone into his office with it or, with WFH, copied the unclear part into an email and said, “Did you mean for this to say [wrong conclusion]?” or “This paragraph is confusing. Should it say [better thing] instead?”

      The higher ups had no problems with his bad grammar and punctuation, so I had to let that stuff go.

      I now work in a truly international company where 75% of my co-workers aren’t native English speakers. Learning to let things go has served me well. As long as I’m not genuinely confused about what they’re saying, it’s all good.

    5. Benihana scene stealer*

      As a boss myself I would be happy if you caught some typos or grammatical errors, but I wouldn’t really like if you changed the substance of the write up. Without knowing the extend of your edits it’s hard to say if you overstepped or not.

      But either way it seems like he wants to handle it himself at this point, so I’d just go with that.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I think you really overstepped, but sympathise completely with the need to rewrite clunky writing. They should market it as stress relief: instead of stress colouring books, they should give out stress corporate rewrite and editing books.

    7. GythaOgden*

      Yeah, corpo-babble can feel frustrating at times. It’s sometimes a bit disheartening when you’re writing minutes or a report based on a meeting and Word will fill in the stock phrases for you as you type while you fill in the actual details. It does feel a bit soulless — but those stock wordings and phrases are used to convey actuality with a minimum of fuss.

      There’s a lot of need for jargon and terminology in business communication. What sounds like a lot of old cobblers to a creative writer often saves words when you need to get the point across quickly. Instead of phrases like ‘those who our organisation serves and those affected by our activities’ you can use the word ‘stakeholders’. Instead of ‘area in the building that one particular tenant rents from us’, it’s ‘demise’ (probably related to the word domain or desmesne rather than meaning someone’s sticky end). Instead of ‘the people who work with us’, ‘colleagues’. (Our org tries to use that rather than staff as inclusive language; it makes sense because they really do practice what they preach and work really hard to include frontline workers in activities usually reserved for corporate, and it shows, so while it was jargonistic to begin with, having worked with them for 3 years now I agree). As long as everyone agrees on the meaning of these words and things are written in plainer English for more general consumption, it isn’t a good idea to impose one particular voice on something that needs a very different one.

      So yeah, I sympathise with your frustration. I wasn’t let go per se from one volunteer placement I had, but it was one of the last straws for me when the person with whom I was working refused to let me proofread a really bad website. She was a prize wally, but I’ve been very careful not to push stuff like this because from other remarks I think she felt condescended to and I probably didn’t make those comments in the best way that I could have done either.

      So if you’re going to do this — and I agree, it’s a thing that pushes a lot of buttons for many people, including me — do it with finesse and in a collaborative fashion. Don’t just rewrite something wholesale and present it to someone unbidden — that’s the part that can feel patronising, even if you didn’t mean it to. Instead, ask if you can do some light editing, tidy up the strictly grammatical stuff and really trust that your manager knows what he needs to say, particularly in the jargon.

      I do have people come to me if they need help with presentation and documents that need a bit of finesse, but I defer to the other person on content and phraseology. I’ve made myself into the team proofreader precisely because I don’t stick my oar in when it’s not wanted. I just let my written work speak for itself and let them know that my virtual door is open.

      1. allathian*

        Fuzzy writing reveals fuzzy thinking, and it’s very easy for corporates (and governments!) to hide behind flashy words, so they say “downsizing” when they mean laying off employees, have mission statements and visions, etc. that more often than not are simply so many empty words. Most business jargon is all flash and no substance. The list of unnecessary but popular jargon is endless, like actionable items, break down silos, circle back, low-hanging fruit, paradigm shift, etc. Aauuugh! My main working language is Finnish so I don’t see these at work but certainly similar stuff that makes me ragey, at least on the inside.

        I also care about the quality of the writing, I’m a translator and it’s much harder to translate unclear writing than clear writing. Luckily my org isn’t a branch of government that’s generally ambiguous in its communications on purpose (and when it is my internal clients tell me so up front), so normally I have explicit permission to write more clearly than the original. Often when a text is later updated, the original has been changed to better match the translation, and I can leave the translation unchanged, and that’s when I really feel that I’ve been successful. If a piece is particularly unclear, I’ll ask for clarification and offer suggestions, but it’s up to the customer to decide what to do with my suggestions. The vast majority of the time, they appreciate and implement them. When they don’t, assuming they let me know, I’ll shrug and move on.

        I also think that there’s a difference between abstract unnecessary jargon that really doesn’t mean anything when you start to pick it apart and industry or company specific terms and acronyms that can save a lot of time when everyone is an “insider” and understands it but is confusing to outsiders. Our list of acronyms is at least five pages long when it’s printed out, and it’s updated when necessary. But a link to the dictionary is included with our onboarding materials. That said, we have a clear language policy that applies to external communications.

        At least now with our online services becoming the main channel for most people to use our services, some higher ups have finally recognized the value of clear instructions in how to access and use our services. If they’re difficult to understand and use, our customers, who generally have no option but to use our services, will call our support lines. But if the UI and instructions are clear and unambiguous, the vast majority of our customers who are used to e-services can use them without calling us. This improves our customer satisfaction scores and employees who work in support can do something else instead, like process the requests that have come in via our e-service. (We use some automatic processing but most cases require some human intervention at some point.)

  58. im tired*

    Every once in a while, something (or multiple things) happen the night before work – pet or family member is sick, taking someone to urgent care or ER, fire alarm goes off in the middle of the night, neighbors upstairs doing something nuts, etc. – and it means I get much less sleep than usual. Any tips on making in through the next workday?

    Today, for example, I’m running on fumes, and I can’t take the day off due to some important meetings. At other points I’ve been reluctant or unable to use sick time since it’s been really limited and I want to save it for when I’m actually sick, not just tired. But I function really poorly on only a few hours of sleep and find it hard to drag myself through the day much less get work done. How to soldier up when you just want/need to sleep?

    1. Feeling forgotten*

      Oof, been there. A couple of ideas: first, I try to remind myself that I have mastered my job well enough that I can do 100% acceptable work without putting in my best effort. I don’t have to show up at my best every single day in order to be good at my job … I’m not an Olympian trying to set a world record, ya know? I also play a little mind game where, when my brain says “I’m so tired!” I say back, “nah, no I’m not.” I trick myself into pretending I got enough sleep. It isn’t a good long-term coping mechanism (in fact, it’s a horrible one), but it will work to get me through a short-term problem like this one. But really, it’s ok to be tired sometimes. The meeting will still happen. If you’re mostly showing up and doing well, people likely won’t notice or will give you the benefit of the doubt. Best wishes for many nights of excellent sleep…

      1. Awkwardness*

        Seconding this. The phsical aspect is one thing (coffee, freen tea, a walk at lunch time, fresh air/ little colder environment than usual, if possible), it is another one to accept that you will accomplish less.
        I find it helpful to have some low-stakes activities on hand that require less brain effort. This could be filling, updating statistics, updating your calendar, writing harmless info email and so.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t know if any of these are feasible for you, but some thoughts I have are:

      – can you take sick time in 2- or 4-hour chunks? I think it’s fair enough to take a few hours of sick time to sleep in after being up late to care for sick family members/pets/ER visits, but that might not be allowed by company policy

      – extra caffeine (or any caffeine if you don’t usually drink coffee/tea/etc.)

      – lunchtime nap? I’ve worked at places where it was fairly common for employees to take ~20-30 min naps in their cars at lunch. Only work if you have a car, a long enough lunch break to get some decent sleep, and aren’t so sleep-deprived you’re in danger of sleeping past your lunch break

      – snacks. In small amounts, food and sleep have some interchangeability, and nibbling can help keep you awake

    3. Space Cadet*

      Those little 5 hour energy shots have gotten me through some tough days. You can get them at gas stations and convenience stores.
      (only take if you have no contraindications to the ingredients).

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Caffeine and a nap. But if there isn’t an option to find an out of the way place to actually sleep for 10minutes, I’ve found that finding a conference room and doing 10 minutes of eyes closed listening to a meditation or relaxation thing through headphones is almost as good. Or a walk outside if the weather supports it.

    5. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      If you wear socks, keep a spare pair at work and change them at lunch time. Bonus points if you can change your footwear too. It is surprisingly reviving and your feet enjoy it as well.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I do a lot of tidying and reorganising if I’m like this, and if my schedule, deadlines and workload allows it. Something about rearranging things and doing a clear out is just restful to me, and it’s like I don’t have to actually “think” too much. I can just go onto autopilot and somehow it keeps my brain engaged for the other tasks I have to do as well.

  59. Caramel & Cheddar*

    I don’t think you should apologize to her, especially since the scanning is a courtesy.

    You said most of you are hybrid but it sounds like she’s full time WFH if she isn’t in the office to pick up the mail physically at least once a week. Can you set up a mail auto-forwarding thing for her, so that it goes to her house instead of to the office? Or can you just have it couriered to her instead? The amount it costs to send a courier once a week is surely less than the hours you spend scanning everything for her.

    But also why is she getting so much more mail than everyone else? Who is the mail from? Did she check a box on a form somewhere in the court system that said “Send me physical copies of everything” that could be corrected so she just gets it by email? I’m so confused about someone getting so much more mail than other people who do a similar job.

  60. Mirax*

    This is a purely technical question, but web search is failing me and I bet someone in the commentariat knows!

    I’m having a problem with Excel. Specifically, I am using VLOOKUP to match items in column A on Sheet A against the same column on Sheet B, and then populate the corresponding cell from Column B on Sheet B into Sheet A.
    Some of the cells in Column A, Sheet A contain text like “True=Light” and others say “True＝Light” with the difference being that the first uses a half-width = and the second uses a full-width ＝.

    When the Excel sheet is open on my computer, Excel correctly identifies those two inputs as the same item, goes to “True=Light” in Column A Sheet B, and populates the correct input into Sheet A. In other words, my VLOOKUP works correctly regardless of whether the equal sign is half or full width.

    When my coworker opens the Excel sheet on his computer, VLOOKUP returns N/A for any field using the full width equals sign and only the VLOOKUP on fields using a half width equals sign populate correctly.

    In the future I’ll probably use find and replace to standardize all punctuation, but can anyone explain why this is happening to us? I’m confused and more than a little annoyed that the sheet is beautiful and functional for me but full of holes for him. Thank you!

    1. Dandylions*

      Are you both in the same country? Are they for sure in the same version of excel?

      I’ve run into issues like that before with regional differences in formulas between countries.

      As for fixed, data standardization is always best practice. Things like trim(), proper(), etc. are your friend. You can also automate this using Power Query.

    2. Meh*

      Text encoding is a weird but fascinating rabbit hole if you’re so inclined. it sounds like coworker has an older version of excel. See if he can get software upgraded.

      you can add logic to substitute the short or long equal in sheetAcolA. So instead of lookup(colA,sheetBtable, valuepos, FALSE)
      you could do lookup(substitute(A,”=”,”==”), sheetBtable, valuepos, FALSE)

  61. badge wearing badger*

    I’m now at a place where I have to badge in to almost every door. Also, the badges must be visible. The badge is in a plastic transparent sleeve. Most people wear their badges as necklaces, but I *hate* having things on my neck. I also don’t usually wear pants with beltloops. Suggestions? The only one I’ve got is to safety pin it to my neckline, which I don’t mind. Any ideas appreciated

    1. I get tangled in my badge*

      I have one of those badge leashes that has a slide clip like a pen. I wear it hooked onto the neck line of dresses or shirt pockets and on the waistband of skirts/pants.

    2. Bella Ridley*

      Retractable badge. It will fasten onto any hem or piece of clothing, or you can get one that holds on with a magnet as well.

    4. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I’m assuming you dont have to wear it at your desk in this suggestion – could you wear it as a wristband when walking around (like one would wear a hair tie)? That way it’s accessible for doors.

    5. Rainy*

      I have a badge reel with a little clip on it. If I’m wearing pants or skirts with pockets, I clip the reel portion to the pocket or a beltloop. If not, I clip it on the bottom or side hem of my top.

      I bought the badge reel on Amazon.

    6. pally*

      Can the badge be attached to something around your wrist – like a key chain bracelet? Or would that just get in the way? Or not be visible enough?

    7. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are auto-retracting clip things for that — retail managers often have special keys on them, so they can do a register override without actually removing the keys. They can be clipped to any convenient part of your clothing, including just the waistband. Or if you’re not bothered by stuff on your wrist, you can do elastic wrist bands with the same effect.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      if you search on amazon for “magnetic eyeglass holder” you can get a little metal thingy that magnets onto your shirt (backing inside, metal loop outside) that you could slide the arm of a pair of glasses through, but it also works great to clip a badge onto. Easy to move from one item of clothing to another, easy to adjust the placement based on the style of your top, and doesn’t require you to put pinholes in things.

    9. HannahS*

      Badge reel. Or there are magnetic versions–the magnetic backing goes under your shirt, the outer magnet attaches to the badge.

  62. stretchy pants rec*

    Maybe here, maybe elsewhere I’ve seen references to work-appropriate stretchy pants (yoga/tights-like). Does anyone have specific brand or look-up term recommendations? (stores likely won’t help — I’m not in the USA, and my clothing stores are different. But, Target or Macy’s might help others)

    1. Dandylions*

      Anything that is not see through. Flared around the ankles tend to look more professional then skin tight all the way down.

      Store brand for US peeps: all of torrid’s legging pants.

    2. Rainy*

      Betabrand’s DPYPs are great although if you hit the timing wrong you can be left waiting for a while (I suspect their fulfillment centre is problematic, as so many of them are).

      Athleta has a bunch of trousers that are work appropriate but comfy with stretch–the Endless, Brooklyn, and Venice lines all have some work appropriate trousers. I really like basically everything in their Delancey line but I work in higher ed and as long as I dress it up some with footwear and top choices usually it’s not obvious that I’m basically just wearing yoga pants to work.

    3. Feeling forgotten*

      I would look at activewear/athleisure/outdoors brands. In the US, Eddie Bauer or REI have some more utilitarian options, and activewear brands like Calia, Lululemon, maybe Athleta are a little more trendy. Some casual-wear stores have activewear lines, too, like YBP at Abercrombie or Offline/Aerie at American Eagle.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a pair of Halara pants that are mostly fine – they look decent from range as long as I have a longish shirt on, but without my butt covered they look more like leggings than work pants than I’m comfortable with, and if someone is close up and actually looks, they are very obviously that sort of tech-y workout pants fabric. Though they’re also light grey – a darker color might hide that second factor better.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I realize you think store recs won’t help, but I have a fantastic pair of stretchy black pants that I bought at H&M. If that’s an option, it’s worth looking into. They’re stretchy but wide-legged, very easy to wear.

    6. BikeWalkBarb*

      Betabrand’s Dress Pant Yoga Pants. Lots of style options, lengths, pockets, colors. Down side is their size range is pretty limited, XS-XXL.

    7. Anonymous teacher*

      Quince ultra stretch Ponte pants. at my job, anything resembling yoga pants would be unacceptable, and these look professional while still being, basically yoga pants.

  63. ScienceWorker*

    I’m currently in a technical job, at a place I’ve worked for 5 years, and the culture has been getting worse over the last year or so. For personal reasons, I’ll be moving to a new city in 8ish months, and right after the move I won’t really be able to work for a few months.

    I knew this was my plan about 1 year out from the move, but with the market and the timeline, I thought it made more sense to stick it out in my current job. However, recently, a higher up decided that several people, including me, need to take a multi-hour personality test (with a psychologist!!) that will be shared with this leader. I was explicitly told that I have to do this if I want to keep working here.

    I’m also still burned out I think from a previous high stakes busy work period I had earlier this year, so possibly that is contributing to how upsetting this feels.

    Pros are a lot of PTO, and, outside of busy periods, I generally only have to work 40 hrs a week. And the work itself, outside of work politics, is really interesting, and I like the majority of my teammates quite a bit.

    I think I just need someone to tell me if I’m right to stay. I can’t get a new job in my field when I’m leaving so soon. I’ve never free-lanced, so I don’t think I have the time to succeed in that before I need to move/take a pause from working. Being unemployed for 8 additional months is not feasible.

    And also I need some advice about how to have energy at home to work on preparing for my career move once I start working again. Now I feel like I barely make it through my neccessary home chores before I am too mentally exhausted to do more.

    And definitely I am interested in any advice about this type of personality test, and if anyone has guesses to what the name of the test is (I wasn’t told).

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think personality tests are mostly bunk, and I would be put out if my manager wanted me to take a multi-hour test with a psychologist (!) during work time. But if it were a condition of my job, I would take the test, smile and nod as the results are being discussed, and then get on with my job. Especially because you know you’re leaving this job. 8 months isn’t necessarily soon, but it’s not too far away either.

      Besides the personality test, this job seems like a good one to ride out for the next 8 months. If it helps, can you schedule a day or two of PTO for between now and personality test or for just after the test? Having something to look forward to and some time to relax might make the test less upsetting.

      1. spiriferida*

        Agreed, this definitely seems like the time to start using some of that generous PTO. Definitely around that test, but maybe also in general, particularly if it doesn’t pay out on your departure.

    2. WellRed*

      Just take the test and roll your eyes. I took one involving colors. It’s annoying but not l invasive.

  64. Robin*

    Any advice for an initial phone call with a recruiter for a position that sounds appealing? They reached out to me about it last week and we have a call next week, so I’m trying to think of what to ask. So far, all I have on my list is salary range and remote/hybrid arrangements. Would love to hear any advice or guidance!

    1. HonorBox*

      Do you know if this is an internal recruiter or external? And have they shared anything about the role/company with you yet? The reason I ask is because you might want to inquire about reporting structure, goals, etc. And while they might offer it at some point, I’d want to know the timeline they’re working on and maybe even how many people will advance to an interview.

    2. Dandylions*

      Make sure they have an actual position, a lot of recruiters that reach out to you don’t. Ask what the role is and to see an job descriptions. Ask what they are looking for, etc.

  65. Amber Rose*

    This job hunt is so demoralizing. I get through to the final round every time, get lots of praise and then the rejection call.

    My last hope interview was this morning. It felt like it went well but it was only 20 minutes long and I don’t know if that matters.

    If this is another rejection then I’m quitting the job hunt until next year. I’ll do the bare minimum to keep EI and sign up for every class possible instead. I’m already in three. With no job I could feasibly do two more.

    Also just for fun I’ve completely stopped writing cover letters and I actually seem to be getting more calls. I think cover letter importance may actually depend on industry?

    1. Dandylions*

      I feel like cover letters are becoming actively discouraged in my field (data and analytics). My manager even says he feels like it’s a dated practice.

      There are so many applicants in analyst, data science, and data engineer fields right now that anything that makes more work for the hiring team is hated.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Hah, my partner and I keep having a debate on the relevance of cover letters, because he’s a data analyst and I’m an English teacher.

    2. Bast*

      I hate cover letters. I work in an industry where it is very dependent on the firm — the more old school ones tend to still request cover letters, and some of the younger, newer firms don’t care. IMO It’s a load of cookie cutter hogwash that tells you nothing about the individual. Yes, I know you have to talk about why you want to be here. Yes, I know you have to talk yourself up. I’d much rather sit down and talk with a person than let a letter decide anything.

      1. Silverwing*

        But then how are you deciding which people to sit down and talk to? The entire point of the resume and cover letter is to help you find the best people to talk to, after all. Surely you aren’t interviewing all your applicants? Or do you get few enough that it’s possible to do that!?!?

      2. allathian*

        Cover letters are unnecessary if you’re happy only hiring people who took the traditional path to your field. But sometimes they can give a good explanation for why someone wants to change fields and what they can offer you even if their career path is non-traditional. I have a business degree but work as a translator, and explaining that I’d done a lot of translation work on the side and that it was the part of all my jobs that I enjoyed the most helped me get my foot in the field.

        That said, it has to be said that when I got my first job as a translator, listing your achievements on your resume was completely unheard of here. All they wanted to know was the time you’d been working at each job and the job title and a general list of tasks. So the cover letter was necessary to show what I’d actually done at the jobs that I thought could help me get the job I wanted. Like when I was a market analyst, I also translated reports and surveys for other market analysts.

        Cover letters are also good for eliminating people who can’t write from consideration in jobs that require good writing skills, like publishing. I hope you wouldn’t hire someone as a copyeditor whose cover letter had grammar errors and spelling mistakes in it…

        The purpose of the cover letter is to get an interview, not the job. But there are plenty of fields and jobs where cover letters are unnecessary, I’m thinking entry-level jobs where good spelling and writing skills aren’t absolutely necessary and where a cover letter could be a barrier to entry to a significant percentage of your potential hiring pool.

    3. GrammerIzFun*

      I work in publishing, and cover letters are SUPER important and definitely necessary. It’s another way to show writing skills and to craft a narrative around your career goals/path, especially for editorial assistants and other entry-level positions. So while there are probably a lot of industries where cover letters aren’t necessary, keep writing them for publishing jobs!