coworker with a crush keeps hanging out at my desk, exhausted from being the only employee with any drive, and more

by Alison Green on May 7, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Coworker who (probably) has a crush keeps hanging out at my desk

I was hoping I could get your advice on dealing with a coworker who won’t leave me alone (“Greg”) and is making me increasingly uncomfortable. I’m a woman in my 20s and Greg is a decade older than me. He asked me out a few months ago and I rejected him, and he hasn’t asked me out since. We are under the same organization and our work overlaps somewhat.

Greg works in another building and frequently comes over to mine. While he says he has meetings in my building, he will often come to my desk and sit next to me to chat. He starts awkward, banal conversations (for example, how an energy drink I once casually recommended makes him sweat a lot) and absolutely cannot take a hint that I am busy or not interested. It also feels like he’s watching me (he will immediately look over when my eyes move in his general direction). I feel trapped when this happens, and it’s impacting my productivity when I go into the office. I enjoy chatting with my other coworkers but only when we’re on the same wavelength.

I know I need to be more direct with Greg, but I don’t know what to say. I suspect he is infatuated with me, but I fear telling him I’m not romantically interested will make him defensive and not fix the root of the problem. What are some things I can say to get him to leave me alone without souring things too much?

It’s fine to start with hints because often they’ll work — but once you see that they’re not, that’s a sign that you need to say it more directly. In this case, that means:
– “I can’t talk, I’m really busy.”
– “I can’t have you hang out here, I need to focus.”
– “I’m swamped, can’t chat.”

Also, since you said he’s sitting next to you, is he using a chair you can temporarily move to make it harder for him to plop himself down? If not, it doesn’t really matter because you can still clearly say the sentences above, but if there is a way to make it physically harder for him to linger, it might be worth doing that too.

I don’t think you need to tell him you’re not romantically interested — you presumably made that clear when you turned down a date — but if a week or two of consistently saying the things above doesn’t stop the drop-by’s, you might need to say, “This feels awkward to say but I’m uncomfortable with you dropping by to chat so often after asking me out, and I’d prefer you stop.” My guess is that you’re going to feel rude saying that (since you haven’t felt comfortable telling him directly that you can’t talk to him), but it’s not rude; at that point it’s the clearest way to deliver the message, and it would be warranted. (In fact, I’d argue it’s kinder to just rip the band-aid off and say it.)

2. How can I improve staff morale in hard times with little flexibility?

I am a director at a state agency managing a staff of about 30. We are currently short-staffed by about 10 positions and in a hiring freeze where I have to write lengthy justifications as to why I need those positions. Needless to say, hiring has been slow to non-existent in a process that already took forever.

Staff morale is not great and any time I announce any change, I am faced with negativity, no matter how I phrase it. I would love to try to increase morale somehow. I already began an Employee of the Month program last year, and I make homemade baked goods out of my own money each month for our staff meetings. But I can’t do anything about pay, time off, flex time, or any of those types of perks since we’re state and union. We also have no budget for employee food/parties/gifts. Do you have any other suggestions?

Employee of the Month programs and baked goods aren’t the place to focus. People are demoralized because the team is short-staffed (and I’m guessing overworked as a result), and neither of those things get close enough to addressing that. In fact, sometimes things like Employee of the Month programs run the risk of making the problems worse, by increasing cynicism/frustration if people feel like you expect them to be distracted by a mildly shiny object when there are massive problems. (That doesn’t mean that you’re to blame for not being able to do anything about those problems — just that you don’t want to seem oblivious to them, or like you’re expecting your team to be oblivious to them.)

That said, you can talk to people and ask if they have ideas for what would help! Explicitly lay out the constraints (you can’t do anything about pay, time off, or flex time) but ask them to think creatively about what would make their jobs better or easier. Who knows, maybe you’ll hear that you pushing back on Department X’s unrealistic deadlines or rude behavior would make a significant improvement to their quality of life or that they’d love to get rid of Excessively Long Weekly Meeting Y, or all sorts of other things that might not be on your radar until you talk with them.

3. I’m exhausted from being the only one with drive in my company

I am working for a family-owned business. The environment is laid-back, and the owners are nice and kind. I work remotely with little to no supervision and am considered a key employee for advising and working closely with the owners.

I have realized that, of the entire company and owners, there are only a handful of people who are competent and internally motivated to grow the business. The owners severely lack business skills and knowledge, despite having run the company for more than a decade. My boss, who is a long-time friend of the family and was hired as a consultant, runs the show. He gives them advice on everything and anything, including trivial and basic tasks like how to tally receipts.

In addition to the lack of knowledge, the owners also lack a sense of curiosity and internal drive. While I spend time after-hours finding ways to better the business and increase efficiency, the owners are unreachable after 5 pm. They are still asking me the same questions they did when I started a few years ago. Some of my tasks require input from them and I have to remind them repeatedly even though they are routine tasks.

The slack culture spreads to employees, as there is little to no supervision. When the owners introduced new processes and accountability as I suggested, employees pushed back and refused to perform the new tasks assigned to them. The owners were then afraid of upsetting employees, so they took on the tasks themselves or hired people to meet the demands. My boss asked me to take on additional executive functions because the others are “unable and won’t be able to make these decisions” (in his words) and I declined.

I am feeling exhausted from the follow-ups, having people come to me asking the same questions and fixing the same mistakes. I witness subpar performance from both employees and owners alike. I constantly feel like I am pushing a boulder uphill with a couple of people sitting on it.

The business is slowly facing consequences with reduced profits this year. I did not get my annual raise. My bonus was also lower. I am not learning new things from the job. But I have been able to exert influence and push new initiatives. I am also highly regarded for my contributions to the company. However, I am deeply dissatisfied by the lack of progress and complacency in the organization. My friends and family said that I expect too much from people. How should I navigate this situation?

It sounds like you should find a different job and quit this one! The working environment is frustrating and demoralizing, you have a radically different vision for how things should run than how they’re actually going to run, you’re seeing financial consequences coming down the pike, and it’s already affecting your pay. You don’t need to stay! You can decide to leave and do something else.

If you think over your options and decide that staying there, with all its flaws, is still better than leaving, then you’ve just got to do it with your eyes open: the owners are who they are, their limitations are exactly what you’ve seen, and most/all of what you think should change isn’t going to, but you’re choosing to stay anyway because ____. You’ve got to fill in that blank on your own, but getting really clear on why you’re staying despite all this, if in fact that’s what you decide, should help.

4. Backing out of a talk I thought was already canceled

Last August, a former boss asked if I would give a volunteer professional development session during a series he arranged at my former workplace. Even though I don’t particularly like some of the people who still work there, I agreed, and we settled on a topic where I have expertise and that would be interesting to the audience for a date in May. This March, my former boss let me know he’d been unexpectedly fired, and asked if I’d keep him in mind if I heard of jobs he’d be a good fit for. Of course I said yes, and I mentally removed the session from my calendar.

Now, the day before the originally-scheduled event, I got a text from an unknown number to confirm my session and ask if I need anything for set-up. I let them know that unfortunately, I’d be unable to make it. No one had contacted me until the day before, and they fired the person responsible for the arrangements in the first place; I didn’t realize this was still on and hadn’t done any work to prepare for it, nor would I have known who to contact to confirm.

Certainly this won’t reflect poorly on my former boss, and I shouldn’t feel bad about backing out of something that I was never officially confirmed, right?

Well … I can see how you got there in your thinking, but I wouldn’t have assumed it was off without first trying to confirm that. It was arranged by your former boss, yes, but it clearly got put on some kind of team-wide calendar and someone else took over the planning for it.

That said, it’s not a big deal. It won’t reflect badly on your old boss (he’s gone! he couldn’t have done anything about it), and it probably won’t reflect badly on you either; they’ll just figure it was a miscommunication, which it was. (And really, they should have contacted you sooner than the day before to confirm and to let you know who your new point of contact would be. What if you had needed to cancel two weeks ago? You wouldn’t have known who to contact.)

5. My company wants me to talk to an outside recruiter for an internal position

My company has hired a recruiter for a role that I am also throwing my hat in the ring for. I was told that the recruiter would talk to me, too. But is there a financial incentive for the recruiter to bring someone in from the outside? Just wondering if this means the deck is stacked against me from the outset.

Yes, there is a built-in financial incentive for the recruiter to bring in an outside candidate, assuming they have a traditional recruiter relationship with your company where they only get paid if a candidate they find gets hired. In fact, if this is a traditional recruiter set-up, it doesn’t make sense for the recruiter to talk to you at all! Typically they’d find candidates and present them to your company, and your company would decide who they’re going to interview and assess people from there.

Unless the recruiter is also part of the hiring decision itself (which would be unusual but not impossible), your company should just interview you the same way they’re interviewing other candidates, unless there’s some specific reason they want her evaluation of you (like if she specializes in X, the job is X, and no one internal has the expertise to assess X) or unless they’re not taking you seriously as a candidate.

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{ 393 comments }

{ 393 comments… read them below }

  1. BuildMeUp*

    While I spend time after-hours finding ways to better the business and increase efficiency, the owners are unreachable after 5 pm

    I mean this in the nicest possible way: why do you care more about this company than the owners do?

    1. Observer*

      Yes. That’s the first question that popped into my head.

      LW, Alison is right. Either find a new job or accept that this is not a place that’s going to have growth for you.

      And, I get it – finding a new job doesn’t happen with the snap of your fingers. But you’re driven, smart, and perfectly willing and capable of working hard. Put that to use in the service of finding a better job rather than putting it all into a job that doesn’t benefit from it.

      I mean, *do* keep on doing good work, but that’s all you need to do. All the extra care and thought just is not necessary.

    3. Anonariffic*

      You can’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm… especially not when those others are mildly commenting that they hadn’t even noticed it was chilly.

    4. WS*

      The last time I saw someone in this kind of position it was because they knew the owners were retiring soon and they bought the business! They did indeed turn it around: about half the other staff resigned (badmouthing all the way) but new employees did well. If that’s not on the cards for you, maybe it’s not the right job.

      1. Architect in Engineerland*

        Yup we have seen it go the other way more often where the person turns the business around, the owners sell and because the savior has no stake they are unceremoniously laid off.

      2. AVP*

        I did something like this, and it was helpful to be the above-and-beyond person because it gave me the opportunity to learn the ins and outs and understand what I would do differently if I ran my own company. And I am someone who never thought I would want to own my own shop! But then the opportunity fell in my lap, and I was ready to go because I’d essentially been studying it for a few years.

        So if OP does stay, maybe they can think of it as an exploration for what they’d do on their own terms, if the chance ever presents itself.

      3. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

        Or the owner says they’re going to retire and sell the business, but then never get around to it.

    5. Mornington Crescent*

      I thought the same thing. Why give this much of yourself when it’s not the workplace culture and *the business owners* aren’t?

    6. Varthema*

      Yes, I thought this too. And more than that, I have to appreciate that there’s still a place in this late-stage capitalist world for businesses that aren’t driven by the relentless need for growth and optimization, are just happy to keep the lights on and make a living, and can hire people who might struggle to find employment elsewhere but who are capable of putting in work that’s good enough, if not excellent. Yes, the business won’t survive in the long run because the economy isn’t built for those anymore, but it might survive long enough for the owners’ purposes.

      It’s entirely possible that this whole situation is more dysfunctional than this, but I think it’s still a worthy thought experiment and might help you find peace with it until you find a new job with a work culture better suited to your strengths.

      1. MBK*

        This is exactly what I was thinking. As long as their bosses aren’t demanding others to go above and beyond their own relatively chill efforts, I don’t see what the real problem is. Growth and efficiency are overrated. Some people are just content to be where they are, and I think we could use more of that.

        1. salad*

          agreed. My one concern would be that they’re not even doing enough to keep the business afloat, but if they can get to a point where they can make things sustainable – if not fully hustle-growth oriented – they could be a good work environment for people who need a slower pace but would also like to have food and shelter.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          Except they’re now shrinking and not really even meeting baseline efficiency, if the actual owners still can’t do a receipt. These are people who hoped to make a cushy living on others’ competence.

          This is a sinking ship, LW.

          1. Goldfeesh*

            It doesn’t necessarily sound like they’re even making a cushy living or trying to.

      2. Antilles*

        I was coming to say just this. The business isn’t going to be an industry titan if the owners are leaving right at 5 pm, but that’s a choice the company can make. It’s the business owner equivalent of the worker who takes a lower paying job with better work-life balance and less stress.
        I’ll also note that OP isn’t mentioning that the business is losing money, just that they have “reduced profits”. If you’re publicly traded, this can have an impact because stock prices often include assumptions of how things are going in the future so Line Must Go Up Forever to match the expectations already baked into your stock price. But in a small business which presumably has few (or no) outside investors, they don’t have that same pressure. As long as they’re still making profits, the business can keep existing just fine even if the total profit is less in 2025 than 2024.

        1. Beth is RETIRED*

          At my now-former company (which is still in business), about 15 years ago, there was a discussion at a meeting along the lines of “growth has slowed and isn’t likely to pick up unless we, the principals, start hustling, and I have small children and prefer not to hustle right now.” I was gobsmacked to hear anyone, especially an owner, express a willingness to accept slow growth as the result of work/life balance.

          About ten years after that, most of the principals’ kids were no longer small, and they started focusing more on growth. Business was good enough last year that I got a REALLY generous bonus when I retired.

          I will say: my company never hit a point where they couldn’t afford annual raises. The one point in OP’s description that has me narrowing my eyes is the indication that that company’s payroll is too large to be sustained in the face of inflation.

      3. Sarah With an H*

        “And more than that, I have to appreciate that there’s still a place in this late-stage capitalist world for businesses that aren’t driven by the relentless need for growth and optimization”

        Seconded! I appreciate when I see businesses who are happy doing well enough to make a living/pay employees, do good work, and not try to be the biggest, best, most ambitious but just exist.

        I do still sympathize with the LW since they are obviously looking for a different environment and this isn’t a good fit. I also wonder if they could take some of the energy they are putting into the job and find something else to put it in that would give a sense of meaning (volunteering, a hobby they’ve always thought was interesting)?

      4. Boulder pusher (OP)*

        Such spot-on insights that you have here although I didn’t elaborate on the humanity side of the business owners.
        They are such wonderful and kind people. Almost too naive for this day and age. Employees are almost guaranteed employment for life here. Unless people quit, there will be endless coaching and second chances. It is exactly as you said — the sole reason for their existence is to keep the lights on, for themselves and those employed.
        And this is exactly where I failed to understand intentions. There is no need to get better. There are talks and hopes in the opposite direction but internally, they are satisfied with things as they are.

        1. Aerin*

          Remember the only thing that grows infinitely is cancer, and even that will eventually kill the host.

          If the business is sustainable, meaning that they’re not growing but they’re also not shrinking, then they’re in good shape! Or even if they know it’s not gonna last forever but (barring a black swan) it will last long enough for their purposes, also good. If it’s not there, then approaching it from that angle might get people onboard more than a “grow grow grow” mentality, and might also help you pull back your own efforts to a more reasonable place.

          But otherwise I think this is probably just a mismatch and you’ll be happier somewhere that’s more aligned with you.

    7. Cottagechick*

      I remember Alison giving the advice that you cannot care more about the business than the owner.

    8. WellRed*

      I thought the same but want to add; not being available after 5 is not slacking. You should try it and maybe use that time to really think about your next steps.

      1. Debby*

        I agree with WellRed and would like to add that at least the owners don’t seem to be expecting or requiring LW to work after 5. So I would go with that, and cut yourself some slack :)
        That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t start looking for a different job, because it appears this job is a dead end for you, LW.

      2. Hyaline*

        Yeah, my reaction to that was “good on those owners for modeling solid work/life balance and boundaries.”

      3. Science KK*

        What they said! I took my work email off my phone in December of last year, and this year I’ve been making sure I leave by 6 unless it’s truly urgent/an emergency. Not only has no one noticed, I’ve still gotten consistently complimented on my work.

        Now that crap has hit the fan with our current project, staying late hasn’t been as bad since I was leaving on time in the months leading up to it. Still tiring, but I can’t imagine how much worse it could’ve been if I was still running myself into the ground like before.

        1. Jellyfish Catcher*

          #1
          Your old company is behaving like an harassing abuser.

          When someone leaves an abusive partner, then and only then does the abuser send flowers every day and call crying every hour. They swear that it will be So Different once you come crawling back, heh.

          Your old company is doing just that: multiple people calling to pressure you, promises of whatever might will tempt you.
          You owe them nothing; ignore the calls.
          Look ahead and enjoy your new job.

    9. Lacey*

      Yup. My first thought as well.

      Along with the hard-learned fact that you just can’t thrive in a job where you care more about it than the people in charge.

    10. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Exactly my thoughts. OP if the owners don’t care about these things, why do you? The owners have set the culture of the business. It is not going to change because you want it to. You either need to accept this is the way it is, or get a new job that is not so laid back.

      Although I like the advice below – try not working so hard and see how it goes.

    11. T.N.H*

      LW should leave and start their own company. Then it’s acceptable to work extra hours. If it’s for someone else, nah.

      1. kanomi*

        That’s what I was going to suggest; you and your boss could be partners and do better if a huge capital investment isn’t required. Otherwise, stop working so hard and look for something else to match your ambition.

    12. JustCuz*

      I have made a career (somehow) out of implementing management systems in companies to save them from ruin. So I get it. I can get very passionate about it – because quite frankly we live in a world where we are all reliant on business owners making the correct decisions. Everyone loses their job when lazy morons fail. So again, I get it. But when the leadership is just not there, that’s when I leave. I have had to learn this lesson the hard way. You cannot make them care. They wouldn’t be in the position they are in if they cared. So if no one is willing to change the problematic leadership or hold them accountable, you have to go. No reason to hold your financial self back for people who clearly do not care if you have a paycheck in a year, or 6 months, or even 3.

      1. Boulder pusher (OP)*

        Exactly, JustCuz. I thought I was hired to save the ship from sinking because they must want it, otherwise, why hire me. But talking the talks and walking the walks are 2 different things.

        I appreciate everyone’s comments here. I am clear and at peace knowing exactly what I need to do.

    13. Dust Bunny*

      Literally just getting on here to say this: You can’t be more invested in the business than the owners are.

      Either accept that this is how things run or start looking for a new job; I’d suggest the second one because I doubt this place will be solvent after long.

    14. Rex Libris*

      Honestly, my first thought when I read this part was “So the owners try to maintain work-life balance and the OP doesn’t. I’m not sure that’s the company’s problem.”

    15. A Simple Narwhal*

      This 1000%! You’re way better off finding a company that will appreciate your effort.

      Also, unless your bonus is significantly larger than your less driven coworkers, the math probably doesn’t work out for you to put all of this time and energy for no additional compensation. And even if your bonus is bigger, is it so much bigger that all the extra hours seem worth it?

      I think you’ll be better off going somewhere else where your efforts will be appreciated, and more importantly, compensated!

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Oh and just to add – do you like putting in all of this extra time and effort? Or do you hate it and just feel it’s necessary to turn the company around?

        Because personally I love when a workday ends and then you never think about it until you clock in the next day, so my real advice would be to pull back and chill out a bit. But my original advice assumes that being driven truly brings you joy, and I don’t want to just say “stop caring and be a different person” if you’re a go-getter at heart! But if you don’t actually like being a go-getter, then definitely don’t! As others have said, you can’t care more than the owners do.

    16. Another Kristin*

      I am also unreachable after 5 PM. My work is not of the kind that ever really has emergencies and if one of my direct reports kept trying to contact me after hours to tell me about their ideas for improvement, I would not appreciate it either!

      OP, I second the advice to look for a new job, because you don’t sound happy where you are, but maybe cultivate your interests outside of work as well? *You* should also be unreachable after 5 because you deserve a rich personal life as well as a job you enjoy.

      1. umami*

        So. Much. This! I have a direct report who used to routinely call me just before 5 to talk about *things* for about an hour or so. I finally had to tell her it could keep until the next day. Honestly, her anxiety over wanting to discuss things immediately was just not my problem, and it should work both ways!

    17. Elizabeth West*

      Yeah, I think with the looming financial issues, none of which are a good sign, the OP would be better off to find something else before the business crumbles into dust. They may decide they don’t care after all, and *poof* everyone is suddenly out of a job.

    19. Beth*

      Absolutely. This job might be a great fit for someone who’s looking for a laid-back workplace where they have a flexible, low-supervision schedule and relatively easy, routine work. It sounds like a frustrating place for a driven, ambitious person who has visions of career and company growth. OP needs to accept that this is what it is and (probably) to move to another organization that’s more in line with their work style.

    20. Boulder pusher (OP)*

      That was before I realized it was the first red flag. I was pep talked into how things could get better, all the dreams/plans, and how I could get more executive experience under my belt, etc. There are always promises and hopes in every executive meeting. But when people get back to their desks, that’s when the lack of actions shows. To be fair, some of the owners are working their butts off. But their efforts can’t hold a candle to the broader organization.

    21. Fool's Gold*

      Yeah like, respectfully – stop doing that! If no one values your working late, don’t work late. That’s time you could/should be investing in your own life, and/or in finding a better position.

  2. Observer*

    #1 – Coworker who keeps hanging around.

    Please use Alison’s scripts. But if that doesn’t work, please go to HR. Don’t bother to get into whether he is interested in you romantically or not – you do not want to give anyone a chance to side-track the conversation. Simply describe the behavior that you are having and issue with. Then explain that you have tried to keep on telling him that you cannot talk, and then you explicitly asked him to stop coming by to chat.

    Of course, that assumes that you have reasonable HR. If you don’t have decent HR, it may not make sense to go to them unfortunately.

    1. Agent Diane*

      And make notes!

      Day 1: told him I couldn’t talk
      Day 2: said I was busy
      …
      Day 4: told him to stop it
      Day 5: told him he really needed to stop

      Because you either have a colleague who is genuinely oblivious and will back off when you tell him to, or you have a creep who is trying to push your boundaries. And if you have a creep, that’s an HR thing.

      1. toolegittoresign*

        I would also start keeping track of how long he’s there for each day. And then maybe use that to say to him “hey, I have been realizing you’re here for more than 30 minutes every day, and that’s having a real impact on me getting work done. It’s okay if you want to say hi, but could you try to keep it brief so I don’t get behind on my work?”

        and if he doesn’t listen, you have more data to give HR on how this is negatively effecting you.

      2. Banana Pyjamas*

        I would keep this in an email draft, that way you can send it as soon as you use the final script

        Or if you want to report to HR the first time as someone down thread suggests, I would have an email ready to go.

        Either way you want a written record and the history that he asked you out. You also want to go to HR before he has the chance so he can’t spin it.

    2. DJ Abbott*

      And don’t forget to loop in your boss. Your boss might be able to help in some way. Even if not, they should know what’s going on because HR will probably tell them.

      1. umami*

        This. If someone brought me this problem, I would absolutely tell them to use me as the scapegoat.

        1. Laser99*

          Not saying it couldn’t work, but you have to be ready for Greg to then think, “Oh, she can’t reveal her true feelings because mean old Boss/HR are determined to stomp on our love!”

      2. Festively Dressed Earl*

        I’d do this before HR. Let the boss know and make a plan together to address it. If that doesn’t work, then LW goes to HR with the advantage that her boss has also seen/documented Greg’s behavior.

        I had a similar problem in a volunteer position; my boss was in a different part of the building. “Greg” was a member of the public. Whenever he started hanging around, I’d call my boss and ask for an item I didn’t need for my job. That tipped her off that she needed to come shoo Greg away, usually by asking me to work on some bogus project.

        1. Laser99*

          This happens a lot in retail. You kick someone under the counter, and they say something like “Lisa wants you to start in the inventory in the back room.” To the unwanted person: “What can I get for you?”

    3. Me (I think)*

      I do think it’s relevant that he asked her out unsuccessfully, and HR needs that info too. Puts his current behavior in a different, and more creepy light.

      He’s been watching too many of those movie where the guy just wears down the girl until she suddenly falls in love with him.

      1. Seashell*

        Yes, I think it’s definitely relevant that she said no to him asking her out. It means that he has problems taking a hint.

      2. Seen Too Much*

        I agree. The fact that he asked her out and she said no, but he is still bothering her – especially if that started after she declined to date him – is relevant. I would suggest you go to HR after you tell him to stop the first time. As a head’s up. Get it on record. Then, if he continues, you can go to HR to escalate it.

      3. Honoria Lucasta*

        Yes, the asking out is a relevant data point. It will help HR understand the context and OP’s discomfort.

        It doesn’t mean OP has to speculate to HR about his reasons for continuing to hang out at her desk. Those are internal to his own head, and trying to sort those out would just bog down the conversation. Focusing on his behavior (in the past and present) is what will lead to actionable steps.

      4. Hyaline*

        I think if LW does choose to escalate it (and I don’t necessarily think that’s the right choice, FWIW, depending on workplace and other potential interventions not explored here…but if she does determine that’s the necessary thing to do), the right thing to focus on is “he asked me out,” not quibbling over whether he has a crush or is romantically interested. That’s subjective and could derail things, but the facts are his actions thus far, which includes asking her out.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Great point, He asked me out, and now he won’t stop sitting at my desk.

      5. Observer*

        , and HR needs that info too. Puts his current behavior in a different, and more creepy light

        Agreed. It’s a fact that he asked her out. And it’s silly to pretend that it is not a highly relevant fact. But it’s still better to just state that this is what happened and stick to that without getting into whether he’s still romantically interested in her.

        Fundamentally, it just doesn’t matter. He’s bugging her and it needs to stop regardless of the *why*. And in a case like this, that’s all HR should be focusing on. They don’t need to (and shouldn’t) police his feelings, but they do need to regulate his behavior.

      6. RC*

        +1, it is definitely relevant to mention.

        The “if I just am persistent over her objections eventually she’ll fall in love with me” is one of my storyline peeves in media (looking at you, teen boy storyline in that Ryan Gosling/Steve Carell movie… ugh).

    4. Just Here for the Llama Grooming*

      Just want to say, probably yelling at the universe: Guys everywhere, stop asking after the first “no.” ESPECIALLY IF YOU WORK AT THE SAME COMPANY AS SHE DOES! Those romantic comedies and musical theater pieces are not real! Just stop already!!

      I’m 70 years old and silly Younger Me thought that by this time we wouldn’t have to worry about this stuff.

      And yes I recognize that this fella may be bad at reading social cues. (All the more reason to be quite direct with him.)

      1. Linda C*

        Yes indeed my first (irreverent) thought was “ahh, the other side of the Code Monkey (Jonathan Coulton song) scenario.

      2. RC*

        There are places where they’ve explicitly laid out an “ask once” policy. I think it’s great and I adopted it for working with undergrads on a previous project (cause if you get enough undergrads in one place, somebody’s gonna catch feels).

        1. Plate of Wings*

          I actually love this! My company is older than undergrad age, we have only a few people in their 20’s and most are 30++. But this just… makes sense to spell out, since people apparently need it.

          I’m married and monogamous, so I would actually be asking zero times, but I would like knowing that this had been put on the table. People meet at work, and that’s okay! The reason it’s okay is usually because someone expressed interest once, and it was reciprocated.

    5. LACPA*

      I think Alison’s suggested scripts are still too wishy-washy. NO to “I prefer that you leave me alone” and “I’m so busy” (which sounds like “I’d talk with you forever if I only could”). Just say “Leave me alone.” Write down the timeline, give examples, and take it to HR and your supervisor.

      Women have been conditioned to be overly accommodating. We don’t exist for some dude’s edification.

      1. sookie st james*

        We don’t exist to please men, sure, but whether we like it or not we *and the rest of the world* have been conditioned a certain way, and it’s not out of the realm of possibility that being blunt or highly assertive could have negative consequences for the OP, especially in a work context. There’s value in preserving a calm, respectful tone, even if she’d really rather say “leave me alone” or even “f off”. The slightly softer language Alison suggested protects her from potential professional repercussions or social backlash, and is also more likely to help mitigate the guy’s reaction to rejection. (Should we have to manage a man’s anger? No. Would I personally rather not risk finding out how violent a creepy man might get? Yes)

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          Thank you.

          I have done the straightforward, “Leave me alone” at work and in person and the times the man reacted in a way that ended up scaring the hell out of me were enough for me to revert to softer, life- and job-preserving language.

          I eagerly await the day when ALL men in our society can handle rejection gracefully and have more than “Anger” in their emotional toolbox but, alas, we are not there yet.

    6. ecto*

      Literally just finished a harassment training for work where this exact scenario was given & the answer was “report this to your manager & HR”. I think it IS important to note that you turned him down for a date as that escalates it in seriousness as potential sexual harassment if he doesn’t back off after you use Alison’s scripts and tell him directly you don’t want to talk to him except for work reasons.

    7. Beth*

      Yes! Op1, I think this man knows what he’s doing. An awkward person with limited awareness of social norms wouldn’t be seeking out someone who rejected him–that’s uncomfortable and stressful. A person who respects your boundaries wouldn’t be doing this either–you were clear that you’re not interested. Greg is neither of those.

      That, to me, sounds like a man who knows he shouldn’t be pursuing someone who rejected him; knows that you can’t totally cut out a coworker from your life; and is looking for loopholes where he can argue this isn’t really him pursuing you, he’s just being friendly, can he not chat with a coworker? so he can keep spending time with you and keep the dream of you falling for him alive.

      I think it’s easy for this to feel like a gray zone of, it’s uncomfortable, but maybe it’s not HR worthy. But he doesn’t need to keep saying the words “Will you go out with me?” to be obviously pursuing you. He’s coming by your desk and settling in for chats all the time, ignoring your signals to leave you alone, and making you uncomfortable. That’s enough to loop HR in and ask for support.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “Op1, I think this man knows what he’s doing. An awkward person with limited awareness of social norms wouldn’t be seeking out someone who rejected him–that’s uncomfortable and stressful.”

        Not necessarily. I myself am neurodivergent and don’t pick up on subtle hints, and I could easily see how Greg, if he in fact isn’t picking up the hints, might be thinking, “I’m not asking her out anymore, so I’m not being inappropriate. I’m just being friendly. Even though she’s not interested in me, I still work with her, so I see nothing wrong with chatting with her every now and then and enjoying the chemical rush I get from being around her.”
        See, when you don’t understand subtle hints and nonverbal communication, you usually don’t realize that other people actually understand it. That is because your brain doesn’t recognize it as a form of communication. So you are often completely oblivious to the message that your own nonverbal communication is sending to other people.
        When I was younger and unaware of my own disability, I often made similar faux pas because I couldn’t pick up the subtle hints that my crushes made to communicate that they weren’t interested. However, once they came right out and directly told me that they didn’t like me that way, I got the message and backed off.
        So, yes, Greg does need to be told directly. If LW isn’t comfortable telling him herself, then she can get her supervisor or HR to intervene.

        1. Beth*

          But Greg has been told that she doesn’t like him that way. He asked her out and she rejected him.

          To be honest, I have a lot more sympathy for teens acting weird when they have a crush than I do adults. When you’re young, you’re still learning how to act around other people. If you misread their communication or don’t realize how they’re reading your behavior, it’s really easy to do things that come off as awkward or uncomfortable. And, as you say, it’s extra easy to do that if you’re neurodivergent. But that’s typically a learning experience–as it sounds like it was for you. It’s age appropriate, and ideally parents and other trusted adults are able to support teens in navigating it (from both the crush-er and the crush-ee side).

          By the time neurodivergent people reach their 30s, most people have had a lot of those learning experiences. They’ve either learned how to act in ways that maintain social norms, or they’re painfully aware of their own disability in that area. And they’ve had a decade plus of adulthood to learn how to move through the world without making others feel like Greg is making OP1 feel.

          If a man truly reaches his 30s without realizing that pursuing a young coworker this intensely might make her uncomfortable? He’s very lucky if a stern conversation from HR is all that happens. That’s an uncomfortable consequence, but one reprimand won’t ruin his life, and well-intentioned people want to know when they’re causing harm so they can learn how to not do that. But I really don’t think it’s likely that a 30+ year old has never in his life heard that continuing to pursue someone who directly rejected you is inappropriate.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            Please stop ablesplaining to me. I know how neurodivergent minds work. I’m neurodivergent myself.

        2. Laser99*

          Every time a LW reports a creep, someone in the comments will tie themselves into knots excusing it as “neurodivergence”.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            I’m not “tying myself into knots.” I’m neurodivergent myself, and I’m basing this on my own experience.

            1. Laser99*

              Fair enough. But there has to be a point where a person takes responsibility for their actions.

              1. Emily Byrd Starr*

                I never said anything to the contrary. I also said that it’s crucial that LW needs to stop hinting and needs to be more direct, because many neurodivergent people don’t understand hints.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      LW 1, there’s really good advice here. Documenting his time and your actions, getting your boss to help, please please do these!

      And feel free to get mad about this. He’s 10 years older than you, he should know better than to behave like this. You should not have to tell him to go away! As I tell my son: if they say no, then walk away and leave them alone! If they change their mind, they’ll let you know.

    9. Ellie*

      I’d loop your boss in too, if you think they’re a reasonable person. They may be able to assist by helping to move Greg along, taking to Greg’s manager about his excursions, or by making sure OP sits in the middle of the group and not the edge. He’s wasting company time as well as taking advantage of the fact that she can’t leave her post. This is gross.

  3. Cmdrshprd*

    OP4 Alison already said this, but to put it another way you can’t care more about the business then the people above you.

    Overall you need to accept the job/owners how they are or move on.

    It sounds like the owners are not great overall, but to a certain extent it is not unreasonable for them and other employees to want work life balance, and stop working at 5pm.

    Some people even owners might be happy with $X midlevel profits if it means they work 9 to 5, while other people/owners want to work 6am to 7pm to keep increasing sales and make as much money as possible $2X $6X etc… Neither approach is necessarily wrong just different priorities.

    1. BellStell*

      This exactly. OP you are working for a company and are saying the way things are done by the owners and higher ups is wrong. Reconsider why you care so much. Reconsider why you feel so put upon to be ‘the only one’ who goes above and beyond and if this is really the case. This is very hard to do. Try leaving at 5 and not replying to work correspondence until next day at 9am or later.

    2. el l*

      Yeah, 2 ways to look at this, both ending up at the same place.

      First way, this is cultural fit. You want a place with more intensity and growth, they are more comfortable with something that might look like stability to some but complacency to others. You know who you are, honestly so do they, it’s not going to change, and it’s time to act accordingly.

      Second way, a healthy business depends on a good culture. And vice versa. There’s only so far you can go if your colleagues lack mojo – personal experience – and as you’ve just seen that will eventually be reflected in your compensation and opportunities.

      Nice or not, you need more from them. Time to move on.

      1. Hannah Lee*

        RE the cultural fit, this stuck out to me:

        “there are only a handful of people who are competent and internally motivated to **grow the business** ”

        In some companies, in some business environments, growth is NOT the be all and end all.
        Sure, in the US for-profit, Wall Street centric world, that approach is seen as unfathomable.
        But I can see owners of a small to mid-size business looking at their product, services, market, operations and deciding “this is sustainable, we’re able maintain a good work/life balance, not be overly stressed, not overly stress our employees, provide a solid product to our customers, and make a comfortable profit” and deciding the don’t need or WANT to reach for the stars and expand, capture market share, do what they do better, faster, stronger. Eg, there’s guy who left his corporate job to make bamboo fly fishing rods. He can personally make maybe 5-10 a year, depending on the size, complexity. He’s not hiring additional staff, he’s not trying to automate or streamline his processes. He’s decided that he’s okay with making 5-10 a year, he’s got enough orders to keep him busy for the next 15-20 years. He suspects some people at the end of his backlog list might not ever get one. And at least according to the profile I saw of him on tv, he’s 100% okay with that. If someone came in and tried to drive him to expand the business, he’d likely show them the door.

        To someone with a “grow the business, do things better, faster, more efficiently so we can ramp up and do more more more” mindset, someone who isn’t driving towards those same goals may come across as incompetent, incurious, unmotivated, slacking. But it’s worth considering, maybe they are just not interested in maximizing growth for its own sake, or efficiency for its own sake …because they are maximizing *Something Else*

        That may be what’s going on at OP’s workplace, and it’s probably best if they look for a new job somewhere more in line with their goals, drives, values.

  4. Bruce (not that Bruce the other Bruce)*

    For LW1 would it make sense to ask management to tell “Greg” to cut down on the social time? If I were a manager I’d be noticing the vibe and checking in with a staff member if I got the feeling a guy was being a pest. I’d not intervene immediately if the staff member wanted to handle it themselves, but I’d try to be aware…

    1. Non non non all the way home*

      Bruce, I don’t know if you’ve ever been a woman in your 20s, but I have and can tell you that the odds are vanishingly small that women in this situation prefer to handle it themselves when being hit on by older creepers.

      1. Non non non all the way home*

        To clarify, she has been trying to handle it herself so far and I imagine would be very happy to have someone higher up in the company tell him to knock it off.

        1. Myrin*

          That seems to basically be what Bruce is saying, though? He wouldn’t want to “intervene immediately if the staff member wanted to handle it themselves” which means that he would intervene if the staff member said “I’m uncomfortable, please help” (in fact, he says exactly that – he would be “checking in with the staff member”, which I think is exactly right).

          (And FWIW, I have been a woman in my 20s – although I’ve been hit on incredibly rarely throughout my life, which I’m glad for – and I wouldn’t have been happy if someone higher up had just swept in without consulting with me first. I’d be happy to let them do it if they asked, though, and would think that shows both awareness and sensitivity.)

        2. Disagree*

          I have been a woman in my 20s and I always wanted to solve problems myself.
          So please do not assume to speak for all young women.

          1. kitto*

            non non didn’t say they were speaking for all women; they said that odds were low. that still includes women who prefer to handle these situations by themselves

              1. Tango*

                we do live in an imperfect world where women are often blamed or shamed for the creepy attention of others, so sometimes dealing with it on your own feels safer.

          2. Fool's Gold*

            “Solve problems myself” really does not apply to the issue of how to handle a creeper/harassment. It’s kind of gross to compare that kind of issue with something like a normal work conundrum.

      2. bamcheeks*

        This feels a bit unfair on Bruce! I didn’t read the comment as saying they’d assume LW would rather handle it themselves, but that they’d check in and ask whether they would. That’s 100% the right approach IMO.

        2. wordswords*

          Totally agreed!

          I have been a woman in my 20s; I would not have preferred to handle it myself, but I would absolutely have preferred to have someone else quietly check with me before they stepped in in the moment, unless that moment was really egregious. In other words, exactly what Bruce is suggesting.

      3. Poolgirl*

        Exactly. Because men like this, and indeed the majority of men, disregard the majority of what a woman says anyway. (Unless what they’re saying happens to agree with them).

        1. Emily Byrd Starr*

          I don’t know if it’s necessarily the majority of men. It just seems like the majority because they’re so obnoxious and loud.

      4. Michelle*

        I… would want to handle that myself. Would have even more in my early twenties. I don’t need management thinking I require extra supervision because my age/gender makes me delicate. If I tried to handle it myself and couldn’t, that’d be another thing. But I’d really, REALLY try for a discreet, just-between-us solution that doesn’t get me noticed by management. I’d rather be my own white knight than rely on someone else.

    2. bamcheeks*

      If I were a manager I’d be noticing the vibe and checking in with a staff member if I got the feeling a guy was being a pest

      I would also do this. Make it clear that you’re not displeased with your report, and that you’re quite happy to make it a generic, “Greg, spend less time socialising” rather than “Greg, stop hitting on Jane”, but making it clear to young and/or female staff that they have management back-up when it comes to protecting their work time and space is 100% the right thing to do.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah, one reasons it’s difficult politically for the younger, perhaps more junior-level employee is because the management rarely has her back, so she’s trying to navigate that. She can’t make Greg mad because he’s closer to the bosses than she is and they may just decide to get rid of her as someone who has “made problems.” So if management can signal they don’t operate that way, it will help her even if she ultimately prefers to handle it herself directly.

      2. Bruce (not that Bruce the other Bruce)*

        Thanks, that is what I was going for. I don’t want to come across as territorial or even worse give the impression that I have my own creepy interest! But I’d want LW1 to know I was aware, that I can help, and that if I see it escalate I will step in without being asked. And if she wants to tell Greg to go away I’ll back her up.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I agree with this; back up might not be absolutely necessary but it is often appreciated. Sure, OP can probably handle it, but this kind of magnetised-to-the-target behaviour from creeps is often obvious enough to other people who are in the vicinity. Everyone pretending it isn’t happening is exactly why women second guess themselves on whether they are imagining it.

    4. Laser99*

      That’s like telling a bullied person, “Well, just tell him to stop.” The bully is the one who needs confrontation, not the target.

  5. Ys*

    We have really got to eliminate the societal idea that persistence is a good quality when pursuing someone. If you ask someone out and they say no they should be erased from your mind as a romantic possibility. It isn’t that hard!

    1. oirishgal*

      and that someone else’s comfort is more important than our own discomfort

    2. Inbetween Days*

      I ask this out of nothing more than curiosity, but are there any romantic films that do not involve persistence on the part of the protagonists (e.g., anyone successfully asking anyone else out twice)?

      1. RC*

        I think what you’re asking is do any romances immediately start with a meet-cute with a mutual being into each other? Surely there are (I know a good number in novel form). And I’ve got some bad examples too (e.g. Crazy Stupid Love ugh). Then the “win her back” trope is related but sliiightly less icky imo, depending on context. Either way, media definitely romanticizes persistence way too much and I wouldn’t be surprised if this guy has internalized it.

        This feels like a weekend thread discussion topic though!

        1. LinuxSystemsGuy*

          It’s also worth pointing that not all women dislike persistence. Sure my social media probably has two “Ungh, why can’t men take a hint memes” for every “I told a guy “no” and he just… stopped trying? WTF? Is romance dead?” meme, but the latter are hardly uncommon either. There is still a not small subset of women that *want* guys to chase them.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            Uh, no. Women don’t say no when they mean yes. This is a myth that stalkers and harassers like to believe.

          2. knitted feet*

            If those women exist, they deserve to have every ‘no’ accepted at face value until they figure out how to communicate.

            The stakes are a whole lot higher when ignoring a no, so please just accept it.

          3. Irish Teacher.*

            I think a lot of the latter are either jokes or somebody pushing an agenda. You really can’t judge what people want or how common something is based on memes and honestly, in reality, most people who say “no” mean “no.”

            Also, there was a pretty good comment on this in The Perks of Being a Wallflower where the father tells the protagonist that “if she says no, you’ve got to assume she means it” because the consequences of being wrong that way are way worse than those of being wrong the other way and then he adds something like “and frankly if she is saying no when she means yes, then she’s playing games and isn’t worth the price of dinner.”

            There is definitely not a “not small subset” of women who want men to ignore their words and try to guess what they mean. There may be some women somewhere because in this wide world there will be somebody who will want anything but a) you shouldn’t be guessing their prevelence based on memes rather than you know, talking to the women you know and b) if women are doing that – saying “no” in order to “make men beg,” what man would want to date those women anyway. If they are like that when they are not even in a relationship yet, imagine how much control they would want when they were in a relationship and c) even if it were a situation where a large number of women did mean yes, when they said no, well, the worst that happens if you assume a woman is telling the truth is that…you miss out on a date. The worst that happens if you keep going is that she feels genuinely threatened, not knowing if you are just bad at understanding the situation or if you are a potential stalker or worse and perhaps she even warns other women to stay away from you.

            So it’s not hard to decide what to do here.

      2. Eukomos*

        One of the things I’ve always liked about Jane Austen is that when her heroes are turned down (or don’t think pursuing the heroine would be appropriate) they don’t keep pestering the heroine, he leavse her alone while quietly doing kind things for her when the opportunity presents itself just because he loves her and wants her to be happy. Famously Mr. Darcy in all incarnations of course, but give the Emma Thompson movie version of Sense and Sensibility a watch if you haven’t, both heroes do a great job of this!

    3. AnonForThis*

      Yes to this. Persistence is not a quality to starting a romantic relationship (maybe not even continuing one, trying to decide if persistence is the right word for seeing out bumpy times or not). It just feels like it’s the assumption the other person is playing hard to get and must be won over.

      LW1 has reminded me of something that happened when I was a teen. The short version is that a guy I was friends with asked me out, but I thought we were better off staying friends. And over the next few years we were pretty decent friends, but with little things about his behaviour getting weirder and weirder until it finally came to the most awkward conversation where it turned out he’d only kept being my friend because he assumed I’d one day realise my mistake and see how much I liked him and we’d be together.

      So maybe Greg is just clueless and wants to be friends with LW1 regardless, but equally maybe he thinks all they need is time to get to know each other and things will be different.

    4. Junior Assistant Peon*

      This almost stopped my brother and his wife from getting together. He asked her out and she claimed a schedule conflict, and he thought she was lying when she was actually telling the truth. She then tried to give hints that he should ask her out again, which sailed right over his head. Fortunately, she got less and less subtle until he got the message!

      1. Be the Person from the Resume*

        Just gotta say, she could have asked him out too.

        It’s sexist tradition that the man has to do the asking.

        But appreciate your brother not being pushy.

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          Yes, I wish we could flip the script to: If you ask someone out and they say no, the ball is now in their court. They know you are interested and if they change their mind/find more room in their schedule, they can come and find you!

          1. Rogue Slime Mold*

            The old Miss Manners rule (not limited to dating–applies to potential friends too) was that if you asked someone if they’d like to do something with you (specific event at specific time) and they claimed a conflict, then you could ask two more times. Three “Gosh sorry I can’t” meant that you should assume that would always be the answer and move on. They know where you are; the ball is in their court if those were all genuine conflicts and they actually would love to get to know you better over a bowling alley.

            At work, it makes sense to ask only once, and then view the ball as in the other court. In part, there’s a very high chance that what you read as “seems happy to see me” was actually “is professional and makes all their colleagues and clients feel that way.”

            1. MK*

              Miss Manners tended to hark back to a bygone era, mostly for entertainment purposes I presume. If this was 1825, I absolutely would send someone 3 engraved invitations to my dinner parties before accepting they didn’t want to pursue a social relationship. In 2025 I doubt I would go beyond telling someone to call me when they have time, after they declined the first time, and there is no way I am asking a third time.

              1. Fool's Gold*

                Miss Manners’ principles actually adapt really well to modern life if you’re still trying to set boundaries while being gracious. If you actually read her writing she shows how the underlying ideas behind these rules still stand up when the details have changed. No one said anything about engraved invitations. It’s really possible for someone to have a scheduling conflict and/or not like the specific activity you suggested and still be open to hanging out in some way, hence couple different tries / then let it drop idea.

                I agree that at work it’s different due to the power dynamics and potential for awkwardness. Just saying, most of the critiques of Miss Manners seem to come from people’s conception of her rather than her actual writing.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I don’t even see why you’d have to give hints. That’s just a silly game. Or maybe it’s just because I’m mega blunt, so I would definitely say something.

        “Do you want to get a coffee on Friday?”
        “I have plans on Friday, but I’d love to do it another day.”
        “Great, how about [day]?”
        “Awesome, here’s my number, text me.”

        Why would you NOT do this?!

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          This. “Hey, do you want to go to the concert on the 25th?” “I have a prior commitment then, but I’m free on the 27th and would love to grab dinner and a movie with you.”

          Sometimes I think we really should be teaching social skills and emotional awareness in schools. But that would be its own can of worms, I’m sure.

          1. Bitte Meddler*

            Well, it would be teaching the opposite of a certain group’s gender “norms” by showing women that they can and should advocate for themselves and to ask for what they want. So, yeah, in today’s climate that would be a massive can of worms.

            1. RC*

              I think social-emotional learning (SEL) is something that’s been showing up in at least some schools recently— but could just be my California sampling bias there, heh.

    5. toolegittoresign*

      I also think that encouraging people to be direct when they’re interested in someone and de-stigmatizing rejection would help a lot. I will never forget the time I was having lunch with a group of younger coworkers, they were in their 20s and I was in my 30s. One was talking about this guy she was interested in, and they were in a church group together. She was asking the group how she could let him know she was interested. They all started suggesting hints and then I just said “you are already friendly — just tell him ‘hey, would you ever want to go get coffee or something?'” Everyone at the table looked at me like I’d suggested she punch him in the face. It was absolutely surreal to me. As a society, we have made being vulnerable such a frightening thing that it stops people from just living their lives. It shouldn’t be embarrassing to ask someone to coffee OR for them to say “oh, no thanks.”

      like here we’re seeing LW so worried about Greg’s reaction if she continues to reject him. Women shouldn’t have to feel that way, but we’ve conditioned men to see rejection as being this massive humiliation. It’s not! Rejection is normal! Everyone has been rejected at some point from something! I wish every school taught kids how to handle rejection, see it as normal, and build resilience.

    6. Hannah Lee*

      And that you’re not entitled to anyone else’s time, attention, presence … no matter how much you like or want it.

  6. Nancy Drew*

    OP 1: Greg isn’t just a coworker. He’s a stalker.
    You need to get that really clear and serious in your head as you start to deal with the situation.
    Keep a paper logbook that you take home everyday of what he did and said and your responses.
    Make sure he can’t have access to your phone number, email addresses, home address.
    Hopefully your company has security cameras and personnel you can alert them to the situation.
    Also – read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker – valuable information in every chapter.
    Good luck!

      1. AnonAnon*

        It’s not a bizarre take because this happened to me with someone at my company. Started out just like this with me and another co-worker. Showing up at our desks to “chat”. Stalking outside my house at 3 am, using company security software to find out where I lived, what building I worked in, etc. Sending me messages via Facebook. I had screenshots and notes and it helped the investigation. This person had access to my personal information and home address, etc.
        I went to HR which launched a global security investigation because apparently this was not his first rodeo. He was promptly removed from the property after they reviewed what he was doing on his work computer to stalk other women.

          1. AnonAnon*

            No it’s not, but MK above dismissed it as being completely harmless and sometimes it is not. It’s always wise to keep that in your back pocket.

            1. MK*

              No, I didn’t. The comment I replied to didn’t raise potential stalking as a possibility, it said that what is happening right now to OP is stalking, and it’s not.

              1. AnneCordelia*

                I think it is! She says that she thinks the guy is “obsessed” with her. And he won’t leave her alone, despite her clearly having told him No. He has her trapped, because he is cornering her at her desk, a place where she can’t leave. Isn’t that the definition of stalking? This is only going to escalate, unless someone really cracks down on him.

                1. knitted feet*

                  From the Stalking Awareness website:

                  “Stalking Definition:
                  A pattern of behavior directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for the person’s safety or the safety of others; or suffer substantial emotional distress.”

                  He asked her out once and was told no. He now approaches her at work, makes banal conversation and is generally so keen to be around her that she avoids looking at him so as not to give him an ‘in’ to come over and interact. He hasn’t been clearly told no about that (and I wish he would take the freaking hint so that LW didn’t have to push back harder, but he clearly either can’t or won’t).

                  It’s inappropriate behaviour, it sounds very uncomfortable, and I bet he doesn’t do this to other coworkers who he’s not crushing on. It’s gross. Some people here don’t think it’s harassment, I do think it’s at least bordering on it, and he needs to knock it off yesterday. But no, genuinely, this doesn’t currently meet the definition of stalking!

                  If he tried to corner her alone in a quiet part of the building, or turned up on her street, or got her number from company records and starting texting her fifty times a night, that would be another story. Right now he’s being a bit too keen to have ordinary conversations in a shared workspace. That’s it.

      2. Observer*

        What a bizarre take.

        Actually *this* is a bizarre take.

        We don’t know if “Greg” is actually dangerous to the LW. But we *do* know that he is engaged in a pattern of behavior that is *highly* correlated with more significant misbehavior that can absolutely harm the LW.

        To brush that concern off as “bizarre” is soooo out of touch with reality that I wonder if this statement was made in good faith.

      1. Crencestre*

        Anon Anon wrote that the first sign of that stalker’s behavior was showing up at their desks to “chat” (despite their having no interest at all in him and having presumably shown none, either.) They were describing an escalating pattern of stalking, which almost never starts as full-blown, obsessive shadowing of the stalker’s “target”; it begins with annoyingly persistent attention that seems awkward-but-innocent and gradually gets more and more threatening.

        And yes, “The Gift of Fear” is an excellent book and yes, every woman should read it!

        1. knitted feet*

          Yes, but you categorically cannot extrapolate from this behaviour that he is going to escalate. He’s got a crush and he’s being obvious about it despite her turning him down. That’s not good, she understandably feels uncomfortable, and she absolutely should be alert for anything else, but it’s an enormous leap from there to declaring that he IS a stalker because a stalker once did the same thing.

          1. Aggretsuko*

            I wouldn’t quite go to stalker territory yet, but it’s a yellow flag at least, and if he’s still keeping up this behavior, she needs to be on alert.

          2. Samwise*

            Sigh.

            There’s no harm done to anyone if OP keeps a record of what’s happening. If it turns out Greg really is just an awkward dude, and if telling him **directly** “you are making me uncomfortable, stop coming by my desk” actually works, then fine.

            But if he doesn’t stop, then OP needs to have that record.

            It’s making OP uncomfortable. He did express romantic interest in her, she said no, he’s still making an effort to come over to her desk (and he has to go out of his way to do it) and talk at her. Really, the time to say, aw poor awkward dude is past.

            1. knitted feet*

              …I know. I agree. I’ve said most of that within this comment section. I don’t sympathise with Greg, I think he’s being inappropriate and gross. I think a record is a good idea. I think LW should be alert for escalation, as I said in the comment you responded to.

        2. Eldritch Office Worker*

          It’s also a sign of someone feeling awkward and trying to mend a collegial relationship. Or someone trying to avoid their own work. I agree The Gift of Fear is a great book but until he’s showing up at places she frequents outside of work, this is not stalking, and we need to remember to use a little discretion too.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Eh, I’m not sure I agree that it’s someone feeling awkward and trying to mend a collegial relationship. My read is that they didn’t really have one and don’t normally interact at work; they don’t even work in the same building. If he tried one or two conversations, maybe he was trying (badly) to smooth things over.

            Greg is trying to have a relationship with OP, which is *possibly* (for argument’s sake) non-romantic or because he wants to avoid his work. He’s not just an awkward person with no agenda.

            I agree there aren’t red flags for stalking yet.

        3. A*

          Before anybody gives money to Gavin de Becker, the author of “The Gift of Fear” take a good, long, hard look at his politics.

          Then decide if he is somebody you want to take advice from.

          I think “the Gift of Fear” is a decent enough book. It’s also repetitive and outdated. It was first published in the late 1990’s.

          1. Cheap Ass Hellmouth*

            He’s also got some wildly inaccurate and victim-blamey ideas about domestic violence

            1. Observer*

              Yes, and he has admitted that this was one area he got it wrong.

              So, while it’s a good book, *definitely* skip his chapter on domestic violence if he hasn’t updated it.

          2. SHEILA, the co-host*

            THIS. If you really feel like you must read it, consider the library rather than lining de Becker’s pockets with another purchase.

              1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

                Not in the United States. At least not for print books – there may be royalties in ebook packages, but there weren’t in the academic type ebook licenses I’m familiar with. If I remember correctly, there are royalties for library checkouts in the UK.

              2. SHEILA, the co-host*

                I’m a librarian. They do not, at least not in the U.S. They would have gotten royalties from the initial sale to the library, but they don’t get a royalty every time someone checks out an item.

                1. SHEILA, the co-host*

                  The UK, and I believe Canada, have some royalty checkout provisions, but those are the only ones I’m aware of.

                  A few of the very large eBook packages at public libraries (e.g. Hoopla) have some royalty provisions, but that’s about it.

    3. Jill Swinburne*

      That’s a pretty big leap based on this information. Sure, it could escalate to that kind of scenario, but equally it could be a guy who likes another person and is bad at reading the room. If the scripts don’t work and, I don’t know, they start finding flowers at their door then sure, they have a situation, but hooves aren’t always zebras. That said, feelings of discomfort are not to be ignored and TGOF is a good book. (in a lot of ways; not all, however.)

    4. Guinea pig squeaking*

      not sure about stalking but he’s definitely toeing the line of sexual harassment.

      1. Happy meal with extra happy*

        I mean, no he’s not. Chatting too much to a coworker is not harassment. His behavior is bad and needs to stop, but let’s not exaggerate.

        1. Ginger Cat Lady*

          He asked her out. And now he will not leave her alone at work. His persistent romantic interest is making her uncomfortable. I think it qualifies as “toeing the line of sexual harassment” since she cannot go a day at work without someone who wants to date her hanging around her desk making her uncomfortable.

          1. Happy meal with extra happy*

            Chatting with someone at work about banal small talk is not harassment, especially if the LW has not yet directly told him to stop or go away.

            Could this become harassment? Yes, of course. But acting like this is almost it right now is just misinformation.

            1. Catherine UK*

              Agreed. All it might take for him to stop is a firm instruction from her to stop. If he doesn’t stop after that, escalate to HR.

            2. AnneCordelia*

              It is harassment in this case, because there is a prior history (he asked her out and was rejected). He is not just some random co-worker making random small talk. Also, he is not making “banal small talk” to anyone else. He is specifically targeting her, and trying to slide out of it by saying”but all I said to her was banal small talk!”

    5. knitted feet*

      Genuinely not sure if this is serious or if the trolls are getting more sophisticated.

    6. Account*

      It sounds like you may be seeing this situation through the lens of trauma— and if so, I’m sorry that happened to you.

      Most of us have been hit on, and/or have been someone’s crush in a situation just like the LW. It’s annoying. It’s not frightening to most of us. It’s like a two out of ten problem. Having a crush and being socially awkward is not the same thing as being a stalker.

    7. Hyaline*

      Dang…he’s being a pest, but there’s no indication of stalking behavior or sexual harassment. Nothing in this letter could not be replaced with “wanted to be friends outside of work and I declined” in a platonic sense. Does he need to stop? Yes, because LW does not appreciate the interruptions and does not want to spend time with this dude in or outside of work. But not reciprocating someone’s interest does not mean that the interest itself was inappropriate.

      Just because someone is annoyed or doesn’t appreciate someone’s interest doesn’t mean the person is a stalker or harasser. It’s called existing in social spaces and navigating the ins and outs of mutual interest, and aside from turning down one date, LW has NOT been direct with this person. Note in the letter that a) the LW has not yet been direct with “Greg” AT ALL and has been expecting him to take a hint but b) this is a man who brought up profuse sweating in a casual conversation, so I’m guessing this is someone who doesn’t social very well.

      1. Beth*

        1) Greg asked OP1 out already. That’s a very clear indication, in the letter, that he doesn’t “want to be friends outside of work” in a platonic sense. OP1 is not making up her feeling that he’s pursuing her out of nowhere, and it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

        2) It’s inappropriate to keep pursuing someone who’s already told and shown you that they’re not interested. The behavior OP describes–watching her when she’s not looking, following her to her desk and sitting down to chat every time she’s in office regardless of what she’s doing, ignoring her acting busy or saying she’s busy, ignoring her acting uninterested, ignoring that she already told him she didn’t want to hang out with him (aka rejected a date)–is inappropriate. This would still be true if he wanted a platonic friendship; it doesn’t matter why you’re pursuing someone, it’s still not OK to keep pushing when they’ve told you “no” and continue to act disinterested.

        3) There is no exception for “I asked this person to date me and they outright said no, but now I decided I’ll accept just being friends, so the rejection no longer applies, we’re restarting.” You don’t get to pretend their “no” didn’t happen just because you’ve told yourself you’re interested in a different kind of relationship now. It probably does apply, and you probably will make them uncomfortable if you continue to pursue them in any way. You should doubly assume that’s the case if you don’t have the social skills to be sure they’re enthusiastic about being friends.

        Dismissing this kind of behavior as “just being a pest” hurts people. OP1 deserves to be comfortable at work. She deserves to have her “no” taken seriously the first time she says it–she shouldn’t have to say it over and over again to have her boundaries respected. She deserves to not feel watched all the time. Those are all things everyone should get to have; anyone would feel uncomfortable and unsafe if they were experiencing violations to those. Greg wanting to date OP1–or wanting to be friends, if that was the situation at hand, which it’s not–doesn’t give him the right to do that to her.

        1. AnneCordelia*

          Right. For the people saying it’s not sexual harassment –that seems nonsensical given that he ASKED HER OUT and was rejected. He is not a random completely new person who wants a platonic friendship. He is a rejected potential romantic partner!

          And for the people saying, Oh, he’s just socially clueless and likes to chat with people, or Oh, he’s just trying to get out of work –that would be a lot more believable if he ever decided to hang out and chat with anyone else except OP. It’s not just some wild coincidence that OP’s desk is always the one he just happens to stop at. Like Allison always says about whether a comment/behavior is appropriate or not: would you say it or do it to the someone of the gender you are not attracted to, or only to your “target” gender? And even if he was the resident office douchebag bro who hit on all the women to see if anyone would take him up on it –that would be less creepy than having the ONE person that he is fixated on.

          I can understand that there is some disagreement here about whether his behavior rises to the level/definition of “stalking,” but it is DEFINITELY sexual harassment. Not “oh but now he says he just wants to be friends so the sexual stuff never existed.”

          1. Not in the letter*

            “that would be a lot more believable if he ever decided to hang out and chat with anyone else except OP. ”

            There is absolutely nothing in the letter whether he is doing this only to OP or only to women.

    8. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Everyone saying this is a leap. But look at the facts:

      1. Asked her out, told no.
      2. Despite the no, sits down and chats, even though she is clearly busy. Not just once in a while, but every time he is in the building.
      3. She is afraid to look up and catch his eye.

      He might not meet the legal definition of stalking, but he is definitely pursuing her. A little precaution now — keeping a log book, making sure her address is secure — could help later. None of these things need to be obvious nor does she make a big deal out of them. If its nothing, no harm done. If he escalates when she shuts him down or goes to HR, then she is set up to deal with it.

    9. Pierrot*

      I’m sorry that you experienced stalking and I know that going through a trauma like that can make people very vigilant about potential threats. But I think that you are operating under the assumption that Craig *will* escalate, and the reality is that this type of creepy persistence is unfortunately common and may not escalate or go any further, but it’s still a problem by itself even if it doesn’t lead to full fledged stalking. It’s very likely to me that Craig is socially awkward/inept, creepy, inconsiderate etc and not a pathological stalker because our world is full of these types. People should certainly be aware of the warning signs of stalking and feel empowered to address behavior that makes them uncomfortable or unsafe before it escalates to that, but it is really not an inevitability that Craig will become a criminal stalker.

      1. knitted feet*

        Yes, this. He’s definitely well inside the realm of gross and he needs to stop, but gross is a wide realm and it doesn’t actually help to call this behaviour something that it’s not.

        Be wary? Yes. Start keeping a private record of this? Good idea. And if he escalates at all then definitely take it very seriously. But it is not unusual for someone who’s awkward and a bit selfish to let their unrequited feelings make everything weird. Having someone like Greg loom crushfully over you is really unpleasant and, again, he really needs to stop. It’s boundary pushing and it’s not OK. But stalking is more than this.

        1. Agree*

          “He’s definitely well inside the realm of gross and he needs to stop, but gross is a wide realm and it doesn’t actually help to call this behaviour something that it’s not.”

          This. And it doesn’t help OP to pick an adequate reaction.

      2. Beth*

        Regardless of whether Craig *will* escalate, I don’t see anything wrong with acknowledging that Craig *could* escalate–he’s behaving in ways that overlap with how people who *do* escalate behave–and it’ll be easier for OP if she prepares for that possibility now than if she’s caught off guard by it. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, right?

    10. Andromeda Carr*

      Of course there’s a thread exonerating this man. Nancy Drew, I find your warning very pertinent and I’m sorry you’ve gotten so many dismissive replies. Women have been killed via such dismissiveness.

      1. Ys*

        No one is exonerating him. He’s behaving like a jerk and a creep. But he’s not stalking her.

          1. Ys*

            And we are asked over and over again to respond based on the information in the letter, not engage in speculation and fanfiction.

            1. NotMyRealName*

              But several people have noted that this is how stalking begins. Taking precautions at this point seems wise to me. There’s no way to tell at this point in the timeline whether or not this guy will escalate.

              1. salad*

                If the original commenter had said “LW, just know this is how stalking begins and stay vigilant,” I would have 100% agreed. But they said “Greg isn’t just a coworker. He’s a stalker.”

              2. knitted feet*

                No, there isn’t, which is why it’s wise to be alert to the possibility of escalation but also not accurate at this point to say – as the original commenter did – “He’s a stalker”. That’s what everyone here’s responding to.

              3. Ys*

                No one is telling LW not to take precautions. We are simply objecting to the post that says that RIGHT NOW Greg is a stalker.

      3. A. D. Kay*

        I agree entirely.This is how stalking starts. It’s wise to take precautions and start documenting this guy’s creepy behavior.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        So, I once went to a women’s self defense course. I thought we’d get some tips on physical safety, get to practice disabling strikes on a guy in pads, maybe shout some. Instead, the person leading the course–a male police officer–told us all to go get concealed carry permits, buy guns, and carry the largest knives we legally could because every man who so much as held a door for us had an ulterior motive and women who relaxed their guard get killed. He finished by telling us the story of a gruesome crime he’d responded to where a woman had been stabbed to death by her boyfriend. Some of the women in the class left crying, and none of us felt confident, safe or empowered.

        There’s a difference between saying “this man is gross and might become a stalker” and “every gross man is a dangerous stalker”.

      5. Pierrot*

        There’s a difference between saying “be vigilant in case this escalates to stalking” versus saying that he is already a stalker or acting like he will inevitably become a violent stalker. It’s a false dichotomy to imply that anyone who hasn’t concluded from this one letter that Craig is a stalker is condoning him. The point is that whether or not he is stalking her or just being clueless and unaware (which is extremely common) or somewhere in between, it’s not okay and she doesn’t need to tolerate it.

      6. Ginny Weasley*

        Many have replied to you saying “no one is exonerating him,” but I’d like to touch on the other part of your response: “so many dismissive replies…women have been killed via such dismissiveness.” I haven’t seen a response in this thread dismissing his behavior either. Every comment I’ve seen has said, along the lines, this is concerning behavior, you should tell him to stop and/or report it. The comment section agrees that the behavior is not okay, but does not all agree that he *is* a stalker, rather than just a bad-behaver.

      7. Nancy Drew*

        Thank you, Andromeda Carr.
        I, almost exclusively, read mysteries/detectives/suspense books A LOT.
        Starting way back with Nancy Drew. :)
        I’ve learned A LOT even though most of the books I read are fiction.

    11. Ellie*

      I mean, he could be a stalker, but its possible he thinks they’re friends, and that just because he asked her out and got rejected, doesn’t mean that they can’t be friends anymore. I don’t know how clear OP has been with her hints so far. If she takes the advice and uses Alison’s wording, and he still keeps coming… then yes, he’s a stalker. But some people truly are that dense.

  7. Not a great look*

    I’d like to hear the other side of the story re: “driven” employee. The way it’s written, it actually looks like the OP arrived at a company as a new hire, suddenly tried to change everything, contacts the owners after hours, and all in all just expects everyone to change to accommodate their needs and their narrow vision of “success”… the company has existed for 10 years, if people are happy about how things are, you and them will be happier if you find a different job with values aligned to yours (but honestly no company is going to be happy about a newcomer looking down on everyone else and trying to run the show. So maybe find a new job but take it slow there)

    1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

      I wondered about this too—is everyone just hoping beyond hope that LW will resign so they can all be comfortable again?

    2. bamcheeks*

      OP says they’ve been there “a few years”. Whether they have let’s been this frustrated or whether their first couple of years were better isn’t clear. But it’s obvious thst this is the wrong environment for them now.

    3. Llama Llama*

      I am always looking to do things better and have been very successful in my career doing that. However, if my employee was calling me after hours for non emergency things I am not sure I would answer the phone either!

    4. Sloanicota*

      I would at least assume, based on the detail that the owners have been in place for 10 years at this point, that they’re happy with how things are going and unlikely to change.

    5. Earlk*

      Yeah I also thought he was probably not anyone’s favourite colleague where he currently is and there’s a good chance if he selects his next role correctly he could be everyone’s favourite colleague at the new place.

    6. Snow Globe*

      I don’t think this changes the advice. Whether the OP is correct about the need for improvements in the company (company financial results would seem to support that) or the OP is pushing for changes that don’t need to be changed, either way the OP is not a good fit for this company and should look elsewhere.

  8. Snoozing not schmoozing*

    #1, Please do not use “I can’t have you hang out here, I need to focus.” because he could very easily misinterpret that as you getting distracted by him in a hot and bothered way.

    2. I see you Doris Burke*

      That’s a good point.. It reminds me of a cartoon I saw a while ago where a guy kept hitting on a woman and in the first three panels she was like “No”, “Don’t”. “Stop”. and of course in the fourth panel you see the guy thinking “she said no don’t stop”!

    3. Architect in Engineerland*

      Yup, I can see how younger me could have taken that as a signal.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      I like the overall message though. Anything along those lines like “I’m too busy to chat, so please don’t sit down” or “I really can’t have you sitting here chatting to me while I am working”.

    5. Alpaca Bag*

      Switching to “I can’t have anyone hang out here, I need to focus.” could work.

    6. bananners*

      The disgusted “ugh” I let out upon reading this and recognizing how true it is.

  9. Take it or leave it*

    #3: To you it is “slack culture”, to others it is “no pressure”. To you it is frustrating that the owners are unreachable after 5pm, to others this indicates work-life-balance. If the big majority of people – owners included – feel fundamentally different about key aspects of the culture, it is you who has to adapt or go, because you cannot and will not change culture at this point.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This 100%. This is blunt but it’s important for people to understand. If you are the outlier, you can only control yourself and your own behavior. There are a ton of environments where this approach would be a great asset, OP, but you’re not in one of them right now.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I would agree and initially I did, until I got to the part about the financial issues. None of those are a good sign.

      1. Take it or leave it*

        But would that change anything?
        Let’s assume there are substantial financial problems and OP is the only one who sees it as it is – they are still in conflict with the majority of the other employees and the owners who probably think it is not THAT bad.
        OP still needs to realize that they cannot change company culture on a fundamental level and make their decisions accordingly.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Sorry, I meant I would agree that it might just be a difference in perspective (i.e., work-life balance, etc.).
          Even if they were able to accept the situation, the financial issues don’t bode well for the future. These days, the margins are pretty slim.

  10. Clear message*

    #1: If you do not have time to chat, you say: “Sorry, I have no time to chat (look to your screen and ignore him)” If he is just sitting there, doing nothing, you can ask: “Is there anything you need help for? I feel you are waiting for me to finish up things because you require something.” If there isn’t anything that he needs: “I really need to focus (and put on headphones on)” or “I really need to finish this by today (look back to your notes and ignore him after that)” or “I really need to focus on this email. Cannot chat, sorry! (look back to the screen and ignore him afterwards)”
    Imagine you having your own office, a call starting in 2 minutes and you really need him to leave. So you are getting up and opening the door for him. That is the attitude you need to carry! You can use a warm and friendly tone, if the rest of the message makes crystal clear that you will and cannot talk to him and he has to leave.
    OP, you wrote that he “absolutely cannot take a hint”. Please, before you escalate this further, try to stop hinting. This is a useful skill in general and has nothing to do with whether Greg deserves this.

    1. Freya*

      As someone who has had to say this to both my parents at different times, sometimes people really do need to hear a blunt “dude, I’m at work and I’m working. If I can’t help you in 30 seconds or less, I need you to send me an email instead.”

      In the case of my parents, they were apologetic and got off the phone ASAP, which is how I know they’re good people (albeit oblivious; I know exactly where I get that autism-related trait from!) People who keep talking after you’ve resorted to being blunt, or who have a tanty, are people about whom you need to be ready to escalate the matter.

    2. Cher*

      Yes! This. And if he keeps stopping by go to management (if you trust them). Try to grey rock, be as boring as possible.

    3. A Significant Tree*

      I agree, unfortunately he probably sees this interaction, however stilted and one-sided it is, as your ‘dynamic’ and has become comfortable with it. I think the only way for him to stop is for you to change the dynamic and make it clear you’re not available to chat/you’re on a deadline/you need to concentrate.

  12. Daria grace*

    #2 while you may not be able to offer any additional leave, flexibility or perks, do you have any ability to make it easier and less stressful to access what they are already entitled to? One of the things that really killed morale in a previous stressful workplace was that they were exceedingly inflexible about when we could take accrued leave days and required so much bureaucracy and negotiation to get it approved.

    1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Not just with benefits, but also with aspects of the job – making things easier and less stressful can be SO huge for morale. I’m managing an understaffed team in a very stressful context right now and the things people have been most happy about were things like:
      – Reducing the number of middle managers who have to approve minor things
      – Cutting back on my review of things that I trust my team to move forward independently
      – Concentrating admin responsibilities in one person’s role who is positioned and hired for it, removing most admin work from other team members’ plates
      – Cross-training folks for professional development purposes and to make leave coverage easier and more robust
      – Inserting myself as the middle-person for cross-team challenges that can be high conflict, so my junior staff members don’t have to deal with the conflict directly (I consult with folks on a case by case basis for this; some team members prefer to deal with it themselves while others appreciate the help)
      – Removing fields from our data systems that are very minor for decision-making but very labor-intensive to track
      – Emphasizing a culture focused on getting to a yes as quickly (but responsibly) as possible
      – Setting deadlines for making decisions (above me, cross-team and below me) so things don’t get caught in endless committee debates – for example, “If we haven’t decided by [date] I’m going to move forward with [plan].

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        These are all excellent! I wish my organization was more like that.

        One thing – which you’re probably already doing – is pushing back on unreasonable timelines. My org has a bit of a culture of executives getting what they want when they want it, even if the timelines are ridiculous. We just have to make it work. Even if the attempt isn’t successful, it helps to know when my leadership has tried to get more reasonable timelines.

      2. Girasol*

        With this in mind, have you asked the team how they might decrease workload? They might know a way to streamline processes or they might suggest trivial work that doesn’t really need to be prioritized as much as highly as it is. Workers often know ways to do the job more effectively and may not discuss that with their manager because they assume the answer will be “no.”

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Inserting myself as the middle-person for cross-team challenges that can be high conflict, so my junior staff members don’t have to deal with the conflict directly (I consult with folks on a case by case basis for this; some team members prefer to deal with it themselves while others appreciate the help)

        Love this one! I had problems with a past manager who didn’t intervene when I was having issues with team A, but did interfere with team B when things were going fine. (He had some control issues.) Now, I’ve decided that any time it takes me more than 10 minutes to draft an email (because I’m worried about pissing someone important off), it’s better to punt it to my current manager. They have a better grasp of interdepartmental politics and don’t have my tendency to stick my foot in my mouth.

      4. AnotherOne*

        My manager has made it really clear what I NEED to get done and that there are things that just aren’t going to happen.

        That we have only so much staff doing this work full-time (me), some part-time staff getting trained up but that’s always going to be very different than having 2 people doing this work full-time.

        Knowing that makes a big difference. Because I periodically just start going- omg, I’m a totally treading water and he’s there to remind me that I’m doing just fine.

    2. Blue Pen*

      Right, or depending on the work involved and if you aren’t already fully remote, offering more flexibility around WFH options, Summer Fridays, schedule flexing, etc.

      1. OP2*

        I approve almost all time off without question (with the union there’s some jockeying about seniority for a little of it) including multiple weeks off in a row so staff can go back to their countries of origin to visit family. It’s their time. They’ve earned it and they deserve it. I tell them to take sick time and vacation time and mental health days. Because this place isn’t work dying for.

        I didn’t want to put too much detail in the letter but we’re a hospital in a patient care role. we can’t work from home. I approve every thing I can as much as I can but bureaucracy is gonna bureaucracy so we have a lot of hoops.

        Some of the things that bother the staff are things that are mandated by things outside of my control:
        – Strict arrival/departure times. I could honestly care less. Get your work done and do your 7 or 8 hours and I don’t care. But we’re union and state and those in/out times are mandated with strictly enforced disciplinary processes that I have to follow. It’s because there are other staff on-site that are 24/7 so we are all held to the same standard.
        -Patient charts are audited monthly and I have to respond when things are missing and there are disciplinary processes for this as well.
        -Personality clashes between staff with bachelors & masters degrees vs those without (i.e. clinical v non-clinical staff)

        I try to push back on administration as much as I can and I keep the heat off my people as much as I can but there’s only so much I can do.

        1. Lisa B*

          Since you have specific constraints, I think Alison’s advice to talk to your people is especially good. Acknowledge the problem, acknowledge what you can’t change, and ask what ideas they have that would help.

        2. Beth*

          What you’re experiencing makes so much sense for a patient care team in a hospital setting. Understaffed? Held to union-defined-and-enforced processes? Limited by the realities of needing to care for patients (can’t use AI, can’t just not give patients care, can’t skimp on documentation without it turning into an even bigger mess)? Sounds like healthcare.

          There really is only so much you can do here. Your team is doing hard work, under a lot of constraints, in a challenging environment. Of course morale is low. I think your best path is to accept that this is how things are. Thank your team for their work, praise them when you can, acknowledge that things are frustrating when they are. Look for quality of life improvements you can make; when your team asks for something and you can’t do it, be open about why, so they know you really considered it and tried. Keep pushing to fill the empty roles (if there’s any risk of losing more people, escalate that–“we’re so understaffed that we’re losing people because of the stress, our department is at risk of not being able to do our work” might get movement where “our department is understaffed” isn’t).

        3. Cassie*

          Kudos to you for approving the time off requests! It may not seem like a big deal but to the employees involved, I’m sure they definitely appreciate it. I have a friend who works in local government – their division’s (new, unofficial) policy is no more than 2 weeks of vacation at a time. Even when the employee is traveling internationally and flights are 12-14 hrs one way.

          It’s one thing if coverage is needed, but when it’s just a blanket unofficial policy? It stinks. It certainly is a morale-killer.

    3. Josie*

      Would your team find team lunches (if all can rather than some miss out due to staffing the office) or after work drinks supportive?

  13. AnonRecruiter*

    LW5: depending on the seniority of the role you’re going for and/or the industry you work in, there is a good chance that there is no financial incentive for the recruiter to hire an external candidate. In Australia anyway, it’s quite common for companies hiring senior roles or working in certain sectors to work with a recruiter on a retainer basis. This means the recruiter gets paid a flat fee regardless of whether the successful candidate was someone they found, and furthermore the fee wouldn’t be impacted by the candidate’s offered salary either. In these situations, the recruiter would do initial interviews, and write questions for subsequent interview rounds.

    1. What's that in the road - a head?*

      It’s the same in the US with retained search firms. Once retained, they own the search, and screen and advance candidates. Yes, including internals. They get paid the same, no matter which candidate is hired.

      1. LW5*

        Thanks, that’s reassuring. I’m not sure I’m getting the language right with “recruiter” – they said they had hired a search firm and that the firm would be talking to all candidates, even those that came through personal connections/recommendations. And possibly writing up reports on everyone interviewed. I will ask about the financial incentive when the process moves on a bit, though.

        1. What's that in the road - a head?*

          Glad we were helpful, but I suggest you do not ask about financial incentives.

          It sounds like your employer is using a retained search firm. That means they retained or hired the firm by paying 1/3 of the estimated fee on engagement. They’ll pay another third after a month, that’s typical for every retained search firm I’ve used. The final third is paid either after the second or third month, or upon hire.
          The fee is a percentage of the estimated total compensation of base, bonus, and LTIP. It’s usually 33% but some firms will accept 25%.

          There is no incentive for a retained agency to place their own candidate over an internal, they get paid the same no matter who gets hired. They were hired to find candidates, of course, but also to manage the screening, assessment, and vetting process. If the hiring manager gets a referral through their network, the search firm will screen, assess, and vet them. And they’ll get paid if the referral gets hired.

          Contingency based search firms don’t operate like this. You don’t hire them, you hope for the best. These agencies get paid only when their candidate is hired, maybe this is what you’re thinking about? They do not own the search or screen internal candidates. They usually don’t have an assessment process other than basic screening. Hope this helps.

          1. The Meat Embezler*

            Yep, agreed on all counts. The fact that LW #5 used the term search firm leads me to believe this is a retained situation.

          2. Plate of Wings*

            Yes, I got an internal job through a retained search firm (tech company, United States). The recruiter treated me like an external candidate, except that scheduling was a little bit easier because she had my calendar and knew company-wide crunch time.

            This is pretty common for companies that want to hire from within. Tech recruiter commissions can be quite significant and the company would also have a financial incentive to hire internally if it meant keeping the fee.

            I’m glad I was competing with external candidates because it forced my employer to get serious about the scope of the job. They would have saved money by just offering it to me, but I would have suffered the consequences of their poor planning.

      2. HR Exec Popping In*

        It really depends on the contract. Typically a retained firm would not get paid for a known candidate. If the company wants internal known candidates to be considered and screened by the recruiter they would just need to either include that in the agreement or instead of hiring the recruiter as a retained search firm, hiring them as a contract recruiter that isn’t paid based on candidate selection.

        1. learnedthehardway*

          Disagreeing with this – coming from the retained side of the search industry, a retained firm will typically be paid regardless of the source of the candidate – including internals and referrals from the hiring company employees. The contract is for the services of recruiting, assessment, and selection of candidates, not just placement. It is usually built right into the contract that the fee schedule applies to all candidates, regardless of origin.

        2. What's that in the road - a head?*

          Typically, they do get paid for internal or known candidates. Not just Spencer Stuart, Korn Ferry, etc., but boutique retained search firms. That’s been the case for every employer I’ve worked for. Fortune 500 or not.

          If the employer has someone in their files then they learned an expensive lesson about internal talent review and acquisition before going out to the market.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      Coming in to agree with this. I have – on many occasions – interviewed internal candidates for roles. In some cases, the candidates are in the process for their own development (and this has been clearly communicated to them). In other cases, the candidate is a real contender for the role, but is not a shoe-in. In some cases, the internal candidate is the preferred candidate, but the company leadership needs to do due diligence to ensure they are considering whether there is someone out there who would be more qualified. With one of my clients, up to 30% of the candidates are internals, and the company wants to have an objective assessment of the internal candidates’ qualifications & experience.

      Of course, it depends on the contract the recruitment firm has with the hiring company – if it is on a retainer or flat fee, then the company is paying for the services provided. If it is purely contingency – ie. paid only upon candidate placement – then there is an inherent bias against internal candidates.

      Of course recruiters are going to do their best to provide well qualified candidates, but that’s not inherently a conflict of interest unless the fee schedule only pays the recruiter if they introduce the hired candidate.

  14. Daria grace*

    #3 with the economy not doing awesome lots of people are not getting bonuses and raises. Not getting the bonus may or may not be the result of their management decisions.

    Assuming that they’re operating in a way that is ethical, legal and has employees & suppliers paid as per agreements, in the absence of shareholders to pay dividends to it is completely their prerogative to operate a business in a way that doesn’t maximise profits but suits their needs and style. It’s your prerogative to decide it doesn’t suit and work elsewhere

  15. Techie Boss*

    LW2, one of the best things my managers have done, and that I’ve tried to pass on as a manager, is to reset expectations when we are short staffed and don’t have any way to get more people hired. Operating at 67% of your normal staffing levels can mean that 33% of the stuff doesn’t get done. If there are optional projects you can delay, operational items you can choose to hold to a different turnaround time, etc, I think that goes a long way toward helping people not feel like 20 people are supposed to do the work of 30. And make a point of telling your staff about these things. It will help them reset their own expectations of themselves, too.

    1. Cassie*

      This is a great reminder! Our dept had constant turnover over the past few years and although we finally got a 5th FTE, we’re still short-staffed as most of the staff are very new in their positions and still learning. I work at a university and I feel we really need to push back to the faculty on what we realistically can and can’t do for them (or more accurately, what we should and should not be doing for them). I know faculty don’t want to deal with administrative stuff, but some of the faculty have gotten quite lazy about it and are perfectly happy to abdicate their authority on stuff that they (and only they) are responsible for.

      I’m trying to remind my coworkers to make sure faculty provide all the info needed so it’ll be faster when they (my coworkers) are processing requests – yes, it’s an added step to send back a request but (hopefully) it’ll train the professors what they need to do to get their request processed.

  16. BellStell*

    OP2 can you do a truly anonymous survey and ask for one or two ideas on what are blocking points at work and how to improve these things? Noting you cannot change pay etc but maybe hearing that a change in process or a particularly bad missing stair employee may warrant some looking into to remove frustrations? For my org every year we have a pulse survey and literally nothing changes (replies across 110 people indicate no advancement opps, crappy overpaid management and missing stairs who are not held accountable and well…. nothing changes so our turnover is high).

  17. AcademiaNut*

    For LW#2:

    Probably the best thing you can do as a manager is to acknowledge that things are difficult, and defend your reports from being burned out. Sit down with them and prioritize tasks, set a reasonable amount to do in a day/week, and if the people above you complain about low productivity, explain that it’s a choice between getting something done and burning out your employees to the point that nothing gets done.

    It’s really common in situations like this to try to figure out how to get 30 people to do the work of 40, when the ultimate answer is that you can’t. Being realistic about workloads and letting people go home at a decent hour and take their accrued vacation (and needed sick leave) is about as good as you can get.

    1. Happy*

      This is great advice.

      Helping people take time away to avoid burnout is so crucial. And I’ll add that using honesty to foster a feeling that we’re all in this together (sharing what you know and can and can’t do) will go a lot farther for morale than an Employee of the Month Award.

      Which…it’s clear OP really means well, but making an Employee of the Month just comes off as tone deaf in a situation where people are overworked and there are hiring freezings.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Plus, EotM is literally a competition in which there can be just one winner per month / 12 total, meaning everyone else who cares about this (depending on the team size) will probably feel worse when they aren’t selected. I suppose it’s a way to encourage people to work harder for no more money, but I don’t see it as a way to boost the average morale.

        1. OP2*

          I hear everyone about the EOM. I started post-covid when morale was in the toilet. Pretty much everyone in the department has gotten it now. That was the plan. They get a little handwritten note from me about why they’re appreciated, a key chain & stickers. It’s not really a big thing or competition. The whole organization started one now which is a THING with a parking spot, etc. which, yeah.

          Otherwise- union means strict in/out times for work. No OT here unless it’s pre-approved. Which it’s not. And I sign off on every time off slip that comes my way.

          1. AnneCordelia*

            I would appreciate a handwritten note. Stickers and keychain, meh.

            I once worked at a place where the boss asked each staff member their favorite kind of candy, doughnut, etc. Then when he brought in treats, he would customize to people’s individual preferences. It was just for little things, but it was nice to have someone take the trouble to find out that I like maple glazed doughnuts, instead of just assuming that “everyone loves Bavarian cream.”

          1. Hlao-roo*

            Ha, great callback!

            (For those who don’t know, there was a previous letter “my manager named Joseph Stalin employee of the month” from June 1, 2020 and there was an update July 29, 2020.)

      2. Blue Pen*

        I’m not so opposed to an EotM recognition on its face (although I totally take Alison’s point that it can come across as tone-deaf in times like these), but there should be an actual award to it. There should be something the employee gets for that recognition, whether it’s a small bonus, an extra PTO day during the month, lunch on the company at their choice of restaurant, or whatever. If it doesn’t have teeth, it’s not going to mean anything and will only exacerbate bad feelings and low morale.

    2. Angstrom*

      For your reports, knowing that their boss is doing their best to shelter them from what comes down from upstairs is a big boost. Be honest, let them know what you can and can’t control, and show what you’re doing to make things easier for the team.

      Any minor irritants you can eliminate are worthwhile. Small annoyances add up to make everything worse.

      1. Anonym*

        Yep, transparency helps your credibility. Feeling like you have their backs in a difficult environment goes a long way. Feeling unsafe makes everything worse.

      2. OP2*

        Question- so my team reacts really badly to change. I do push back as much as I can to things I think we shouldn’t have to do if I can but some things are mandated. Since we’re state and also required by other outside agencies to do certain things, sometimes things are just out of my control. Often times, I may know of something that’s probably coming but isn’t an absolute certainty or doesn’t have a set date yet so I hold off on telling my team until I know for absolute certainty when we will have to do it. My thought is because I know it’s probably going to upset them, there’s no sense getting them upset about it while it’s still a future problem. Should I be telling them sooner? Would letting them know of the possibility be better? There are often things that I know about that don’t happen or don’t materialize for months on end so I don’t want to get them upset over something that may not happen until the next season.

        1. Anonym*

          I’d lean toward telling them when you’re close to 100% sure it’s happening, even if you don’t know when. This is part of transparency and building trust. But you know them and the specific situations best – if they’re going to be stressed and miserable about something, then I can see waiting, but at least give them a reasonable amount of notice. A few weeks at least, depending on how much preparation is needed plus a little additional time to process and mentally adjust.

          Are you able to get feedback from a few trusted team members? I’d lean into whatever resources you have there – folks with experience, good judgement and good working relationships across the team. Rely on them if you have them. If nothing else, they should have valuable perspective and maybe new ideas.

        2. Zahra*

          Ask them! It may be that the bad reaction is because they feel cannot influence the change. Or maybe they’d rather not know. Or maybe they’d like one or two key people to know in advance so they can influence the change that may be coming their way. Or maybe they want to know when you feel there’s a reasonable chance (not a certainty) that the change will happen: at a point when they feel they can give their own feedback while they still can.

        3. Bike Walk Bake Books*

          Ask them what they’d prefer. Do they want early information with lack of certainty on whether it will really happen, or “tell me only when I really need to know”? And what level of change is this? Bigger/more world-changing deserves early air time so they can plan for the what-if scenarios.

          I lean toward transparency with caveats up front and at the end. “I’m sharing what I can so you have context. Here’s what you don’t need to worry about until it’s time to worry about it and I hope you can keep your energy for the important things that are critical for our patients and your well-being. I’ll tell you more as soon as I can.” And then follow through on updates every so often, even if the update is “That thing I told you about in February still doesn’t have a date when it will go live.”

          My context: I’m in a public agency so our budget process is right out in the open until it isn’t. When things are published in bills, they’re info but nothing is for-sure until the budget actually gets signed by the governor, and there’s an invisible step of conference committee discussions to reconcile two different approaches to the budget. Budget decisions directly affect whether I have programs and positions.

          I told them the biggest things that were in the news (possible furloughs or temporary salary reductions, as one example), told them the timeline for the conference committee work, and told them the outcome (no furloughs or reductions, whew), still with the caveat that the governor needs to sign the budget. I wanted them to know it might be coming because they could be making decisions about big things like whether to buy a home or take a long vacation in Europe before we’d have certainty.

          If your uncertain topics are ones that have that kind of impact, I’d say earlier is better even if it isn’t for sure. When they can trust you as a source of solid information that’s one less fear factor in their days. “What does she know that she isn’t telling us? Is another shoe about to drop?” is a bad mindset to bring to work on top of the res tof it. (Yes, some things are management-only for a while so I don’t mean violate confidentiality you were asked to maintain.)

        4. Angstrom*

          I would tell them what you’ve heard may be coming, along with your estimate of the probability and the timing. It’ll help build your reputation for honesty, and they’ll have more confidence that they won’t be blindsided.

          Maybe something like
          “I know that these changes that we can’t control can be confusing and frustrating. They are for me, too. The best I can do is let you know as soon as I do what may be coming so we have time to think about how we might deal with them.”

          1. OP2*

            Right now my internal debate- there is talk from downtown of making all of us wear a uniform (scrubs) which we have never done before. This is across multiple locations but I’m on this HUGE email chain about it where people are debating nuance of what title should have to wear them and who should wear what color- should those who are licensed clinical staff wear the same color as those who aren’t, etc., etc. I have no idea when this will come to fruition. It’s most likely coming at some point but the nick picky debating is slowing the process immensely. We’re going to have to buy these scrubs when we get the final go since we get a clothing allowance but, again, that could be in a month, that could be in three months, it could be next year. We get the clothing allowance in July. I was debating telling them in the June staff meeting so they can put that money aside to have for the scrubs whenever it comes but not this month since it’s nebulous yet. The June meeting is in the middle of the month. Would you feel that’s enough warning?

            1. Zahra*

              I’d even tell them at the May meeting, if you have one upcoming. Be frank that it may take anywhere from a month to a year (or more) but that you wanted to tell them in advance so they can plan future purchases accordingly.

              Also, why isn’t the hospital providing the scrubs? It would be cheaper for them to buy it in bulk than each person buying them individually. If each needs to buy individually, it might be worth looking into getting a group discount set up with “preferred providers” (either for your employees only or for everyone). For preferred providers, make sure they have a wide variety of sizes (so as many people can shop there as possible) and that they’re actually cheaper than the next reasonable alternative. Don’t try to beat an Amazon marketplace seller who sells cheap scrubs that’ll fall apart in a few months, but do not go for the “gold standard” that sells at a premium because of their reputation.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      I completely agree with this. Show your team that you understand and while you can’t fix the overarching problem, you can help them successfully navigate the situation. This includes ruthless prioritization, having their backs for the work that can not get done, encouraging time off and allowing development.

    4. Hyaline*

      I was coming here to say the same thing. You probably can’t solve or address the root causes of the things that are actually bothering them, but you can acknowledge them and do what you can to protect them from the worst effects. Being open to their suggestions and needs is a good place to start, but at the end of the day, you can’t personally be responsible for systemic problems beyond your control. (And you may have to come to terms with that, yourself–that you can’t “fix” this.)

    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      100%. I’d prefer a manager who is honest and real with me (to the extent that is appropriate) to one who’s pretending everything is fine at best and doing toxic positivity at worst. I’m an adult, so I a) can handle the truth, and b) am smart and observant enough to tell when someone is trying to put lipstick on a pig. So treat me like the adult I am. I want a manager who respects and trusts me enough to tell me the truth instead of trying to BS everyone.

      I get the impulse to keep the bad stuff to yourself to avoid hurting morale. And it sounds like a not-great situation for you, too, LW. I’m glad you reached out, even though you’re probably not getting quite the answer you were expecting / hoping for.

  18. Beth**

    LW2, is there any way you can do anything about the actual workload? I work in the public sector and I know this can be difficult, but something there are things in your power to change. My employer is in a similar place with difficult budgets etc and here are some of the things we’re doing:

    *Reducing the number of levels that have to provide sign-off on decisions and reducing the seniority of some of the decision makers (i.e. more junior people can sign off on things or a single individual rather than a committee)
    *Reducing the frequency of some tasks (e.g. one review that would normally be done every 3 years is being moved to a 4 year cycle)
    *Trying to make better use of AI/data e.g. transcribing meetings to free up staff time for higher value tasks

    If your employees think that you’re genuinely trying to make their work lives better and they feel the benefit, it could help morale.

    1. March*

      No AI. Trying to find a way to do it that will actually produce acceptable results will be more work than doing it yourself, and anything else will be shoddy and hurt the quality of output.

      1. I see you Doris Burke*

        You are painting way too broad a brush there – AI can be problematic for sure but there’s plenty of uses for it that do actually save people time and effort. No idea if it would help in this situation though – it seems like rearranging the deck chairs

        1. Calamity Janine*

          given that LW2 explained it’s a healthcare situation? way too risky to have AI handle things. generative AI doesn’t give a damn about accuracy – it cannot, given how LLMs work. hallucinating a diagnosis, medication, or anything else on a patient’s chart can be disastrous and responsible for death. …and that’s going to take three times as long to check and correct than it is to actually use a human brain to address the problem. plus there’s the nightmare of patient data privacy laws, and how those AI transcription services don’t know medical terms…

          actual specialty algorithms could be useful but those will need to be bespoke solutions created from the ground up to be within compliance. black box modeling does not lead to great results anywhere, and black box modeling coupled with LLMs leads to pure blarney that wastes everyone’s time in most workplaces… but it leads to people dying in medicine. off-the-shelf solutions are inadequate to the point of being immoral.

          (and that’s before we even get to the fact that LLMs depend right now on breaking copyright law to function. chatgpt has admitted to this repeatedly. any business turning an essential part of their day to day operations to The Crime Machine, Which We Run On Crime And In A Criminal Fashion, is foolish in the extreme. it’s business suicide with extra steps. you’re better off investing in literal child labor – it will bring you better quality work, and it will even have a slight edge in the morality of how much you want to wreck the environment to get a result.)

        2. Dahlia*

          They work in healthcare.

          There is absolutely no way you should be using AI in healthcare. Even ignoring the environmental issues, that is too dangerous.

        3. Tea Monk*

          Yes it depends on whether the reports need to be accurate or not. I’m not sure what places would accept AI level work tho

          1. Calamity Janine*

            with the LW mentioning healthcare in the comments, hachi machi is that not a place that accepts AI level work. sure, there are some transcription tools that *say* they’re tuned to medical nomenclature… but i’ve never seen one that didn’t immediately beef it in important ways. (ex. hypotension and hypertension: Two Very Different Things That Sound Alike!) the only time i’ve seen it work is when the doctor is staring down the transcript as it is being written… and then immediately correcting it… several times in a row, multiple times in a document, and that’s with software trained to a practitioner’s voice. that’s not going to be what happens when the AI takes meeting notes.

            and really – to be mean for a second – if a workplace is able to use AI level work because the stuff being produced doesn’t need to necessarily be accurate, or coherent, or factual…

            …just… just smack good ol’ Lorem Ipsum in there and call it a day lmao, it’s a document that never needed to exist in the first place beyond being a placeholder. might as well be eco-friendly and use the traditional text we all know and love to communicate “this is placeholder text that doesn’t actually have meaning”.

    2. Sloanicota*

      Honestly, if you are down this many positions, you need to be doing what you can to cancel actual work. No big X event this year because you don’t have the staffing for it (assuming it’s not somebody’s personal favorite thing – if it is, maybe just let the people who want to sign up for the “fun” parts). If the widget count is usually 12 a month, what would it take to get that lowered to 10 because of staffing shortfalls? If the public office is usually open 9-5, can it be 9-3 until those positions are restored, or closed Tuesdays or whatever?

          1. Hroethvitnir*

            No, but ones that aren’t made specifically for you (ie: not happening here) are both not good enough for quality work in the short term, and ethically awful*.

            *Obviously that’s personal, but a product that can only work by using vast amounts of non-consented work should not exist imo. I have to note that the environmental concerns on individual use are overblown (it’s less energy and water than an online purchase), but training models is a different beast, so there’s that.

    4. OP2*

      I wish. We’re a hospital with the workload involving direct patient care & documentation. Unless we reduced the patient population……

      1. another anon*

        Most hospitals have already done everything reasonable to reduce the length of visits, but there might be some places to save a little time and energy. For example, is anyone ever seeing the data you’re collecting? If not, are you legally required to collect it?

        My doctor is affiliated with a hospital that sends out lengthy questionnaires before every appointment. I was dutifully filling those out, until my partner mentioned it to her doctor. He told her that he didn’t see that information, and in fact hadn’t known it existed. And then, of course, patients show up and demand to know why they have to answer all the same questions that they just answered through MyChart.

      2. Zahra*

        Depending on which department you work for… there have been initiatives in some hospitals to interview patients that come in often. The solution was usually more services for that person (social worker, etc.), coaching them how to use their medication effectively or how to manage their condition to minimize complications. That actually reduced significantly the number of hospital visits (especially to urgent care and the like) and increased the quality of care for everyone in the community, not just those who used to have multiple hospital visits every month/year.

    5. Fool's Gold*

      Don’t use AI or suggest it unless you want to tell on yourself as someone who doesn’t care one bit about whether information is accurate or valuable.

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        What???

        I use AI every single day in my job. It’s a lot like handing something to an entry-level assistant. Sure, not everything is going to come back 100% perfect in its final form, but the time it takes for me to edit the output — for accuracy and value — is a fraction of the time it takes to create the whole thing from scratch.

  19. KateM*

    #4 – shouldn’t the former boss when letting OP know they were hired told them also what their new point of contact was?

    1. Alison but not that Alison*

      Depending on how it all went down the guy might not even know who the new contact is and it would be super irritating if “Sally” is assigned to pick up that job but the fired guy keeps telling everyone to contact “Bob”.

      Also, if I am fired then I feel like I have no obligation to smooth things through for my old company- I would do the same as happened here and let any personal connections know that I am no longer there so they can decide how they want to go forward and, if asked, would probably pass on a contact number- but I am not doing squat to make my old company’s life easier

    2. I see you Doris Burke*

      Maybe, but just having been fired I doubt this talk was on his mind.

    3. ecnaseener*

      That doesn’t surprise me. He was fired, presumably without notice, he wouldn’t have had all the information about who would be covering his tasks.

      1. Antilles*

        It’s also usually not the fired employee’s responsibility to reach out and let people know who’s covering their tasks. The company should have been the one who reached out and let OP know that John Doe has departed our firm and Bob Smith will be taking over.

    4. Be the Person from the Resume*

      Sounds like he contacted the LW as a friend and for networking and not as part of transitioning his old responsibilities.

      Also seems like in the LW’s mind, she was doing it as a favor for her old boss, but whoever got her name did not realize that context and assumed she was a confirmed speaker.

      Also, I agree. If I were giving a talk, I’d expect info about details confirmed a week or two out when I’m finalizing content so that only reaching out a day before was too late.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      They probably didn’t know. I think the whole thing was an oversight of the company. They should have reached out with new contact info shortly after the old boss got fired.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      The whole thing took place over WAAAY too much time. It sounds like months passed between the initial invite and when he got fired, and then even more months to the event date. No one confirmed ANYTHING in between.

  20. Lady Knittington*

    LW1 – have you also tried wearing headphones? They’re a great ‘go away I’m busy’ signal. Greg doesn’t need to know if you’re actually listening to anything on them. I appreciate there are some roles where that’s not appropriate, but it’s another potential option.

    1. March*

      If nothing else, they’re a great litmus test. If Greg sees the headphones and sits down anyway, just to watch LW, or if he motions to LW to take them off or – horror – touches them himself, then it’s OK Eff This You Outta Here Now time.
      And if he sees them, goes all apologetic and walks away, you’ll know he’s just clueless – WHICH MEANS that he’ll probably react well to one instance of “Look, Greg, I can’t chat during the work day, so you shouldn’t come over to my desk, because the social isn’t going to happen with me.” And then leave it there for him to find other social outlets at work. At most, tell him he can go to his manager to ask about how to make work friends. But you don’t even have to do that.

      1. Workerbee*

        He’s not clueless, though. He’s choosing to keep pursuing someone both already rejected him and has been giving him hints. This dude is employed. Workplaces are full of nuances like this that he’s had to learn to navigate to stay employed. But here he is actively and continually disregarding OP’s discomfort.

      2. Polly Hedron*

        tell him he can go to his manager to ask about how to make work friends

        No! That is not a responsibility of the manager.

        1. Goldfeesh*

          But it might be the responsibility of their manager to notice their employee has left the building multiple times to go who knows were for who knows how long.

  21. Irish Teacher.*

    LW3, it is really up to the owners to decide on and influence company culture. For whatever reason, it seems like they are deciding a laid back atmosphere is more important to them than growing the business. Maybe this is just because they are incompetent. We’ve read a lot of letters about people who go into business without a proper plan, thinking it will be “easier” to work for themself or thinking they can make a career in their “passion”, not realising that a passion for llama-grooming isn’t enough to run a llama beauty parlour. You also have to have a passion for managing staff, planning business details and at least a basic understanding of stuff like paperwork. It’s possible your bosses are like that and would like to grow their business but don’t know how or aren’t willing to put in the effort.

    It’s also possible they are happy with things the way they are and just want to make enough to get by.

    But either way, the advice for you is the same. You aren’t going to be able to grow this business on your own or make the company change so your options really are: look for a different job, accept the company culture and remain there but cut back on trying to do everything or carry on as you are, knowing nobody else is going to work as you are and you won’t change much. The last sounds to me like a recipe for frustration.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      The OP definitely needs to go, because it sounds like it’s no longer the case that the owners don’t have the will to grow the business, but that they won’t stop the decline.

      Being unavailable after 5pm is unusual for owners (although not for employees) but keeping their work-life balance wouldn’t worry me.
      However, backing off when employees “refused” new processes and accountability rings alarm bells. Especially in the current US economy, a poorly managed small business that doesn’t adapt to change may soon be circling the drain.

      The OP received no raise this year, a lower bonus and is not developing new skills as she wishes. She is frustrated and stressed. So, she urgently needs to jump ship before being dragged down with it. Stop doing out of hours work and use the saved time to job hunt.
      If she absolutely can’t/won’t move voluntarily, then still stick to her hours and stop caring – but try to develop an emergency plan for this job ending.

      1. KateM*

        On the other side, “backing off when employees refused new processes and accountability” could also describe the story we had where OP the owner hired two new employees who were friends and started to badmouth the one long-time employee who had kept OP’s company working for years, only with the twist of the owner actually standing on the side of old employee. We don’t know.

        1. KateM*

          Found the story – ‘my employee gave me an “it’s her or me” ultimatum’ – OP writes “[the employee who has been working for 4 years] doesn’t want to try new things and is creating limits that I don’t think we need and saying no to new procedures and processes”.

        2. ecnaseener*

          On the other other side, it could be that the staff had legitimate reasons to push back on LW’s idea, and the owners realized belatedly that they shouldn’t have greenlit it. A mistake by the owners however you slice it, but nobody needs to be fully in the right or wrong here.

          Bottom line is, LW is not a fit for the this company’s and the owners don’t intend to bring the culture in line with LW.

          1. ecnaseener*

            Oof, sorry for the word salad there — last sentence should go “LW is not a fit for this company’s culture.” Time for my coffee!

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Profits are down, bonuses down, raises stopped.
        A business generally can’t continue to function and produce profits if it keeps doing things the same old way while competitors innovate and produce things more cheaply.

        It could be that all is fine with this business model, but many people resist change just because they want to stay in their old comfort zone, while the world passes them by.

        Anyway, the OP is stagnating in her skills and her pay, so she needs to dump these stick-in-the-muds and move on if she can.
        The OP is an employee not an owner, so she should stop caring and just put in the hours like everyone else. Maybe the business would trundle along just the same; maybe not.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      LW#3 is frustrated the company isn’t the type of company she wants it to be. Here is the thing, we as an individual can only change the organization so much. Instead of being frustrated the company is what you want it to be, go work at a company that is more aligned with the type of organization you want to work for.

  22. Beautiful_creep*

    #LW5 – I work for a headhunting firm, and we insist that any internal candidates go through the same process as any external. That’s because under our contracts even if they hire internally, we get paid, but it makes sense to benchmark the internal candidates against the external ones in the same process (for example if we’re assessing the external candidates against a number of capabilities, it makes sense to have the same report in the same format for the internal ones!)

    Just an alternate perspective for you :)

    2. Not LW5, but might as well be*

      Appreciate this insight Beautiful_creep! I’m in a similar spot (internal position, having random interviews with external recruiters). I still think the hiring process at my job is full of bees, but perhaps the bees have bananapants suites and ties and are business bees?

  23. I see you Doris Burke*

    “How can I improve staff morale in hard times with little flexibility”

    You probably can’t given all the constraints you mentioned – but yeah I’d at least ask the staff, and maybe you’ll find one or two things you can control

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Ask your employees what they’d like, explaining the constraints you are under.
      If they are so demoralised then you may receive the answer that without being able to increase pay, PTO or staff, or guarantee their jobs will remain, then anything else feels meaningless. However, tell them you will remain open to suggestions as something may occur to them later.

      Consider what you can remove from their plate.
      Make sure none of them are pressured into working more than their required hours.
      Can you refuse work that exceeds what your staff can handle without stress, or does it just pile up in an ever-lengthening queue, or do you/they get criticised for not finishing tasks by the specified date?
      Can you personally deal with anyone outside your agency who is a pain to your staff, to shield them a bit from stress?

      Consider whether the changes you say they push back on are always necessary.
      Do they have time to learn these new processes or tasks you specify?
      Do they need training for them?

      Ask whether they actually enjoy little extras like having food brought in and Employee of the Month, or whether they think it’s just another meaningless time / energy suck.
      Free food and pretty trophies are generally welcome when things are going well, but can seem an over-obvious attempt to distract when the situation is miserable.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        And honestly, having a boss who is just realistic about where things are and doesn’t try to sugar coat it is worth a lot.

  24. Takis*

    “While I spend time after-hours finding ways to better the business and increase efficiency”

    Why? It’s not your business, you’re not even at a high enough level to make serious impacts (ie your boss’ level), and there’s a clear precedent of the owners NGAF. So why are you trying to care more than the actual owners??? That never ends well.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      It sort of reads to me like, while it’s not OP’s business, doing that might genuinely be OP’s job?

  25. bamcheeks*

    LW3, your whole mindset here is “clearly I am right and they are wrong”. A thing I try to do when I face a decision like this is to turn it around and say, “what if I am wrong and they are right”. Quite often, the answer is JUST THE SAME, and that’s helpful.

    If you are right: they are bad at managing a company, and the business is going to fail. Solution: time to look for a new job.
    If you are wrong: they are running a perfectly functional sustainable business with no interest in significant change or growth, and you have outgrown what you can do there. Solution: time to look for a new job.

    Part of the point of doing this exercise is that it saves me wasting energy on getting angry about why can’t they see I’m right and how do I change things which are outside my control. I’ve been in situations where I was in disagreement with my management, and I spent a lot of time strategising how to persuade them to agree with me. And there is clearly a place for that work! But at a certain point, when you stop being energised by the idea of promoting and influencing and start being frustrated and angry, and you start labelling them as “lacking curiosity and internal drive” and being resentful that they don’t work after 5pm… that’s the signal that is doesn’t matter who is right and who is wrong, you have reached the tipping point where it only matters that you are not aligned on what you want. That’s the time to leave.

    The company might bimble on quite happily as a mid-market player without ever living up to the potential you see, or it might be outpaced by more dynamic competitors and wither and die. But either way, I can promise you you’ll find it way more satisfying to observe that process from somewhere else than to be sitting there fuming because your process improvements are not being implemented.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Well said! It’s just a bad fit in the end. What matters to LW is that they’re unhappy and this company won’t make them happy.

    2. Aziraphale the Cat*

      So smart to reframe it that way! A few years ago I worked for a company where the owner said he wanted it to grow but wouldn’t step out of his comfort zone. So I knew that either he would sell to a bigger competitor to cash out or we would lose our clients to a bigger competitor. The outcome for me though would have been the same – I would be out of a job. I spent years expending energy being frustrated when he dismissed every idea for growth when I could have used that energy for job searching.

    3. Rogue Slime Mold*

      This is an excellent point. No matter who is right, the correct path for OP is the same.

    5. old lady*

      I think most of us were yelling find a new job halfway through reading the post. It’s a bad fit for the LW who needs to find a faster paced company.

    7. huh*

      Joining the chorus to say this is a lovely way to view this situation, and I’m going to keep this in mind for personal use in the future.

  26. I see you Doris Burke*

    In addition to Greg being clueless (or worse), his flirting strategy needs alot of work – telling someone how you sweat profusely while drinking something probably isn’t helping

    2. Rogue Slime Mold*

      Reminds me of people trying to re-integrate after the pandemic isolation, and feeling half-feral as they attempted to remember how casual small talk goes.

    3. Non non non all the way home*

      In Greg’s mind he’s probably thinking she’ll imagine his glistening body (ugh, I can’t finish what I was thinking).

    4. The Body Is Round*

      I’m envisioning him as Colin from “What We Do in the Shadows”

  27. Potatohead*

    #1 just makes me think of Johnathan Coulton’s ‘Code Monkey’

    “Code Monkey hang around at front desk,
    Tell you sweater looks nice
    Code Monkey offer buy you soda,
    Bring you cup, bring you ice”

    3. Alpaca Bag*

      Later in the song:
      “Anyway you busy with the telephone
      No time for chat
      Code Monkey have long walk back to cubicle
      He sit down pretend to work”

  28. Pocket Mouse*

    #2- Low morale at a state agency

    Since low morale at your agency seems largely due to being overworked/understaffed, your priority should be relieving their workload. Here are some ideas that have been or would be helpful to my morale in my office-based role at a similarly inflexible agency:

    -Automate things that can be automated.
    -Examining the things each role/team is doing to cut down or deprioritize high effort, low value tasks. If effort and/or value is unknown, figure it out. This needs to be an informed decision; even continuing as is is a choice.
    -When new requests come in, gather all necessary details, including flexibility around deadlines, before having someone work on it. If the request doesn’t have a clear objective and expected value, deprioritize it until it does.
    -Prevent role scope creep; keep tasks with the most applicable role (as capacity allows).
    -To the extent possible, consult all staff who will be affected by a change before it’s implemented, and ideally even before the decision is made.
    -Refrain from sharing ideas for new projects/initiatives unless they are very likely to be undertaken, and share exactly where in the list of priorities it falls when you do share them.
    -Document protocols, workflows, key contacts, etc. for recurring tasks.
    -Offer opportunities for comp time (if desired), and fighting for comp time/OT pay for staff who regularly work long hours.
    -Look for (realistic) opportunities to move existing staff into higher level and higher-paying roles.
    -As many meetings as possible have agendas or main topics/questions shared or available ahead of time.
    -Meetings end on time.
    -Protect time for deep thought and flow. In my office, this looks like explicit support for blocking off time on one’s calendar to work on a project, no internal (and minimal external) meetings on Friday afternoons, and office-wide meeting-light weeks twice a year (meetings are skipped or scheduled for another week unless truly necessary to meet those weeks).
    -Support people taking time off, both verbally and logistically.
    -Informal flex time.
    -Ask people what would make their individual jobs easier/better, and try to make that happen.*

    TBH, the Employee of the Month program would actually feel like something was added to my plate, since it’s now something I am asked to care about/spend email or meeting time on/strive toward… and it could take 3 years before everyone has a turn (if a rotation) or I could be overlooked entirely because my work, while excellent and impactful, isn’t as readily visible to whoever is selecting the monthly winner as others’ work is.

    Also… there’s a decent chance at least one person on your staff can’t eat your baked goods. Pay attention, and check in to see whether the funds you use for baking could be spent on something all staff can enjoy.

    *I’ve found that some people don’t always recognize that their jobs could be made easier! Sometimes it’s a “this is just what the job is” perception, and sometimes people don’t have the technical or systems knowledge to realize opportunities to streamline processes or workflows exist. So the goal in asking staff is to identify opportunities, not solutions (at least, not immediately)- e.g. “What’s something you do that takes more time than it feels like it should? Which workflows leave you feeling there must be a better way to do it? Are there processes where you follow the exact same set of steps every time, on a large number of items/inputs? Which workflows or forms aren’t intuitive, and take a while to learn? What have you been wanting to do, but haven’t had the time for?” instead of “What can I do to make your job easier/better?”

    1. Silver Robin*

      your whole comment is great, but that last paragraph is truly so helpful! Getting relevant information out of people who do not necessarily know how to give you that information is such an important skill and it can be so hard to figure out how to ask the right questions

    2. Zahra*

      Oh, thank you for those specific questions instead of “what can I do to make your job easier/better”! I’m going to keep that in my back pocket for future retrospectives at work.

  29. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

    LW#2, as a fed contractor working onsite with a federal organization, I’d say the best thing to keep morale up is communicate. Tell your employees about how you wrote the documentation to support continuing hiring, and what the status is of bringing on additional people. Be honest about what is going on. The org I support has been giving updates similar to that effect, and it’s nice to hear that they are at least trying, and not being like ‘oh well, deal with it.’

    Also, encourage people to look at their contracts and talk to their union reps about what flexibility can be utilized, and allow people to maximize that. My org has multiple different government divisions and contractors, so we are allowed to do whatever is allowable for our individual org, even if it doesn’t fully align with the host organization’s directions. For example I’m allowed to work the 4 ten-hour day schedule and take Fridays off.

    Lastly, promote open communication back. For me, I’m trying to figure out what I can say to my management (onsite I directly report to a fed gov employee) about my workload since I know we’re all struggling. I don’t want to overwhelm them, but I do need support sometimes on pushing back on other orgs that want things now, and balancing my own workload.

    1. Allonge*

      Agreed, I came here to say what you wrote in your first paragraph. People working in places like this are usually aware to some level that government does not hire / fire on the same method as private companies. A lot of them will know that a manager on their own cannot easily institute change.

      So sharing the efforts and where OP is in the process goes a long way, really. And it can open a discussion on what can be done to manage workload in the meanwhile.

  30. Workerbee*

    OP#1, my sympathies as I have had Gregs and spent too much time and energy trying to work around them.

    What I didn’t realize was that they were CHOOSING to do what they were doing. They felt their needs/desired were paramount.

    Anyone who says, “Well, how could they possibly understand hints?” is giving the devil advocates he doesn’t need. These are work colleagues. Work is full of nuances. Work is full of soft “no”s. They know what a damn hint looks and smells like. They’re actively choosing not to care.

    1. Katie A*

      It doesn’t matter in terms of whether or not they should stop, but this isn’t always true. For various reasons, but a simple one is that someone who has a crush on a coworker may be unconsciously motivated to interpret nuances and soft nos more positively than they would in a different context. They could genuinely be interpreting things that way without any intention. That’s very different than actively choosing not to care and ignoring someone else’s desires.

      But in terms of whether Greg needs to stop, it doesn’t matter if Greg isn’t a bad person who is purposefully ignoring the LW’s soft nos or if he is just a coworker who is awkwardly trying to be friendly after messing up and asking out an uninterested colleague. The interactions make the LW uncomfortable, so he needs to stop initiating them.

      It’s just helpful to be not to say, without clear evidence, that people are necessarily “choosing not to care,” so people don’t feel like they’re saying someone is a bad person if they say that person doesn’t listen to soft nos. That can stop people from taking the next step and being more blunt.

      1. MsM*

        I’m not seeing the distinction, honestly. Interpreting a soft “no” in a different way is still choosing to ignore the “no” part or any ambiguity in favor of the preferred interpretation. That doesn’t make the person with the crush an irredeemable monster, but they are still prioritizing what they want above the possibility the other person might not want the same thing.

    2. Emily Byrd Starr*

      As a neurodivergent person who doesn’t easily pick up on hints or soft no’s, I assure you that what you are saying isn’t true. We genuinely don’t understand you unless you are as direct as possible. Don’t just assume that, because we’re competent and smart enough to work in an office or have a degree, that *of course* we’re able to pick up on hints. There are entirely different parts of the brain at work here, and it is VERY VERY common for neurodivergent people to be smart in the IQ sense, but completely oblivious to indirect and nonverbal communication.
      Is it possible that Greg is being creepy on purpose, and he knows exactly what he’s doing? Of course. But to immediately jump to the conclusion that he DEFINITELY knows better is, quite frankly, ableist and offensive to neurodivergents. I’m not trying to attack you, just to educate you.

    3. Disagree*

      In this comment section, often enough, rude behaviour is excused with possible neurodivergence and that people simply cannot understand nuances. And yet, here, it is set in stone that this coworker is fully aware of the hints and choosing to ignore them. Why is that?
      Either you give everybody the benefit of the doubt as long as you are only hinting, or nobody. OP herself wrote that she is only hinting!
      I know a person who thinks it is a clear hint of disapproval that they make some people ring longer than others. Hinting is no reliable message.

  31. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    OP1: *gives a world weary sigh* nearly 30 years in IT and had ‘that guy’ occur more than I care to count. Seems like some blokes have two reactions to being turned down: hostility or trying to sneak into your undercrackers via becoming ‘friends’ first.

    (It’s not a friendship btw – I’ve been caught out by the guy who I thought *was* a friend suddenly turning very hostile when I started dating someone else)

    I’ve found a casual ‘mate, I haven’t got time for you’ works quite well. It’s polite, but with an undercurrent of ‘you are starting to annoy me now’. Add on with a stern looking over the top of glasses/disbelieving look if you wish.

    And if his feelings get hurt? Too fucking bad. I’m tired of existing for the male gaze.

    3. Hannah Lee*

      Ah yes, the -hostility- that pops up as soon as they perceive anything that limits their unfettered access to your time, attention, etc. or impinges on their imagined priority in your world.

      In my case, it happened at a mailroom job, I was 23-24, dude was late 30’s or 40’s, would come and hang around and chit chat (basically him talking at me about stuff I had no interest in, and me politely smiling and nodding while I tried to do my job despite his presence, while hoping someone, anyone else would come in and break things up) I didn’t know how to push back on a senior co-worker, or feel like I even could, didn’t quite get what his deal was. I felt like a sitting duck in that mail room.

      Then one day he comes in and presents me with a half-sour pickle (no lie!) He’d gotten some from his favorite NY deli during a weekend trip back home, and he had deemed me worthy of receiving one of these super special pickles. He stood there, expectantly, waiting for me to try it and gush about it. It was 8 am, I was still in coffee-only mode, and declined, but said I would try it later. He was a bit put out, but left. I did try it later… and did not like! Other people who worked nearby had mentioned they loved half-sour pickles, so I grabbed a knife from the break room and put it out so anyone who wanted a taste could have some (it was a big pickle and I come from a food sharing culture)

      Dude wandered in at some point … saw me sharing it and became enraged … beet red, snarling at me that I had NO RIGHT to share the pickle. He had brought it for ME and ME ALONE!!!! I was an awful horrible person who couldn’t be trusted, who had done him wrong, etc etc. It was kind of terrifying and I was glad other people were nearby. He was snappish and hostile to me forever more. The fun and more world-wise women who worked next door on the switchboard started joking (to me, not him) that he was miffed that I’d rejected ‘his pickle’, and TBH, when I look back on that time, I suspect they were right.

      The guy’s ‘ barely pleasant, but completely self-absorbed know-it-all guy’ persona was totally dropped when I (from his perspective) did not sufficiently cherish the super special gift, thereby making clear that I was not his, did not bow to his awesomeness and appreciate him the way he thought I must.

      The disrespect, sense of entitlement, desire to manipulate and control might have been hard to miss for inexperienced me when masked by his baseline awkward eccentric tech guru persona, and the disparity of standing in the company, but they were on bold display when he turned hostile. Ugh. Those kinds of guys are awful. (And every workplace, social group always seems to have at least one)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        O_O

        This reminds me of the friendly guy at the factory cafeteria. We had chatted here and there, and he seemed nice. Then he asked me out when he was going through my lunch line, in full view and hearing of everyone else. When I nicely said no thank you, he got extremely and scarily pissy about it. Everyone in line was throwing massive side-eye at him. And this was a bunch of hard-nosed factory workers.

      2. Laser99*

        I guess it’s true what they say, if you live long enough you hear everything.

  32. Lalitah*

    OP#3: Think of jobs like clothes: sometimes you outgrow them and need to get new ones.

    1. old lady*

      I am giving this a standing ovation. Short, sweet and directly to to point. As I said above the LW needs to find a new job.

      1. KateM*

        And sometimes they never really fitted nor were quite your style but looked AMAZING in the store.

  33. EA*

    OP2, I would hesitate about surveying your employees about how to improve morale. If they all say things that are impossible for you to do, that could bring the energy down even more.

    Also – maybe just accept that things are hard right now, but try to manage venting… in my experience one of the worst things for group morale is having certain people complain constantly. Keep things focused on work, reduce forced chatting and team building, and I agree with others that managing the work load should be your #1 focus (not baked goods!)

    1. Zahra*

      OP2, there are a lot of tools to get actionable feedback. Of course, I’d make sure that people are ok sharing their feelings with you. I’ve done a venting/what can we do to improve session that I’ve shared with management once I’d made sure to scrub the names of the people giving the feedback. Management got feedback they hadn’t heard previously and acted on it later on. So the person gathering the feedback doesn’t have to be you. It has to be someone the team feels comfortable being (brutally) honest with, which includes maintaining their anonymity when sharing the feedback.

      I’m a scrum master, so I regularly have feedback sessions with the team called “retrospectives” every few weeks. The very basic one is “what went well, what went badly, what can we improve, how can we improve it”. But there are more targeted ones that you could use every once in a while or when you see that there are issues:

      – Spheres of influence: sphere of control (what we can affect directly), sphere of influence (what we can impact), sphere of concern (out of our immediate capacity to change)

      – If problems are identified, I love doing the TRIZ from Liberating Structures. Step 1: list all imaginable ways to make the problem worse. Step 2: From that list, identify the ones we are doing. Step 3: What are the first steps to improve things. Liberating Structures in general have good ideas to generate feedback, and it doesn’t have to be a retrospective.

      There are many more ideas/templates to be found in any “brainstorming”, “agile retrospective” and “whiteboard” tools and websites. You can add in an ice-breaker/check-in (I like to get them to play a bit with “emoji kitchen” (google it) to get their mood) and/or a check-out too.

      1. OP2*

        So, I’m like the grandboss or great-grandboss of most of the staff in my dept the way it’s structured. I meet with my direct supervisees once a month and I meet with the dept as a whole once a month. But I was thinking about implementing meeting with each dept member every two months or so and asking them:
        1. What do you feel went well this month?
        2. What is one thing you feel would make your job easier?
        3. How could you be more supported in your job?
        4. Do you have any ideas to improve (this place) as a whole or your specific area?

        My only concern is that one of their complaints is they never feel like they have enough time to get things done so I have hesitated starting it because I didn’t want to add another meeting to their plate. If I ask them as a whole whether they would want to do it I would get a non-committal response both anonymous or in person because that’s how things usually go. So I haven’t moved forward on it. Should I?

        1. Anonym*

          I think it’s a good idea, but it doesn’t need to be even that frequent necessarily. Once or twice a year might suffice, and that’s a negligible add to their load, especially if the focus is longer term stuff. Tradeoff seems worth it (from a very overloaded person in another industry who would really appreciate getting occasional face time with the big boss and has appreciated it in the past). It helps to be really explicit about what you’re looking for and ask targeted questions, because some people may not understand or trust at the start. The fact that their feedback helps you advocate for the group is really important.

          Also – let them ask questions! You never know where you might be able to provide answers or context that help them navigate their job. I had a grand boss who was a really helpful resource in this way – she provided context for things affecting our work that frankly made difficult stuff easier to deal with. It’s easier to accept when the negative stuff has an explanation or context.

  34. RIP Pillowfort*

    OP#2- Another State Agency worker here. No union though.

    So things I’ve done to manage the negativity:

    1. More communication about what you’re doing as a manager, what upper managements’ expectations are (realistic or not) and what the office needs to accomplish. The most successful stress periods in my office is when our immediate managers presented us as a united front. They know what you’re fighting for and what roadblocks are in the way of this.

    2. Honesty about what can and can’t change. If someone is upset we didn’t get a COLA, I sympathize but also point out there’s nothing management can do about that. Those are set in the legislative budget. But what I can do is talk to you about what is required to move up a pay grade and support you in doing that, even if you have to move on to another office or job to do that.

    3. Take the complaints seriously. The complaints need to have something actionable. Lately in my office it’s about changes to teleworking. People were very, very upset with them because they were big changes. I went into the meeting prepared to lay out the changes and what paths they had available. Did that make people less upset? No but it did lay out their actual options.

    4. Changes should have buy in from people that are affected by them. This is a big one here. We’re in a constant push-pull with other offices about deliverables and management will sometimes want to “make changes” to a process they don’t understand as well as the people doing the work. We always push to have time to evaluate the change before implementing it. If it’s something that is a good change or something we can come up with an equivalent solution for great. But if it’s a very disruptive/bad change, it gives us the opportunity to let the workers know “Hey they’re proposing change X” and get feedback on why changing X would not be good or cause further problems.

    The hardest problem is if the people being negative are not open to any kind of concession. We have 2-3 people here that are very, very, very negative to the point it’s outright unprofessional lately.

  35. TX_Trucker*

    #5. I’m hiring for a senior position right now and using an outside firm. I tell them what my priorities are for the position. They do the initial screening for all candidates and get paid the same no matter who finds the candidate. This saves me from a whole bunch of internal candidates contacting me about their chances, and/or to advocate for themselves.

    1. Anonforthis*

      Adding here to say that if it’s a retained executive consulting firm, they likey will get paid no matter who gets the job, but we speak to internal and external candidates equally to ensure everyone has the same questions asked of them, and meet the same requirements for the role. We don’t get any bonus for bringing external candidates in my work.

  36. Laura H*

    LW1, I feel for you! My brain instantly started spinning with strategies for if you and I were work friends. I think headphones are a great tool if they can work in your environment, you can take one out when Greg stops by but keep it in your hand, after saying hi let him know you don’t want to get out of the zone with what you’re working on, say have a good rest of the day, put that head phone back in and look back at your work.

    Also love the earlier commenters suggestion about moving the spare chair if that’s what he’s using to sit down on. If it’s a hot desking, counter-like set up or something where there will always be space next to you maybe ask a friend at work to sit there so that Greg can’t? Or deploy friends another way- if you have one whoes more asserive than you care to be ask them to call you or swing by with a made up work question. They can say “Greg, I need to talk to LW can you please excuse us?” Then look at him untill gets the hint and leaves. You could even ask your manager to do this if you feel comfortable with that.

    A white lie is also fine- “Hey someone else got spoken to about curtailing non-work chat, so please don’t come by to hang out for a while”

    Last idea- can you get up and leave? When he comes by stand up and say “oh hey, i’m off to the ladies/i have to talk to so-and-so, but if you need something email me” and walk away. If he sits down to wait for you to get back I would be shocked, but if he does you should act surprised when you see him sitting there-make it clear his behavior is the weird choice- don’t sit down yourself and say “Greg, buddy, I can’t chat today” and stay standing until he gets up and leaves. Hopefully his own feeling of awkwardness at that point will be the negative reinforcment needed to discourage him from coming and sitting down again.

    Good luck! I hope you’ll update us!

  37. Gigi*

    LW2: I feel you. I’m a supervisor in a government agency. That said, I’ve found the biggest mistakes I’ve ever made as a manager were when I tried to make people happy and took it personally when they weren’t. In these situations, I find constant communication and as much transparency as possible – even when you don’t know anything new – is the best you can do. They understand the situation, they know there’s nothing you can do, happiness under those circumstances is their choice.

    That said, I just went and bought a dozen donuts for my team. Can’t hurt.

  38. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    #1 – I want to treat this one hundred percent about “other employee is bugging me with drop by conversations” rather than the creepy stalker vibe. So I’d want to do a “say hello, comment on weather, then “OK, back to the grind. Have a good day.”

    But yeah, it’s hanger-about-just-in-case energy. So I’d continue to be as blank and matter of fact as possible. Maybe interrupt the small talk with a “So, is there something you needed for the TPS report?” Or abruptly need to go to the bathroom … or have to get up to ask your boss a question. Make every contact unrewarding. He doesn’t work on your team, so there’s no reason for chatter.

    Keep “sorry” out of your sentences. “I’ve got to get back to work. Good luck finding someone to chat with.”
    Ask a nearby co-worker to call you when it goes too long so you can cut him off. Or to stop by and ask arcane and tedious questions while giving the interloper some “who is this guy” side eye.

    And track. Loop in a manager or HR to pull him back to his desk, and to remind him that breaktime can’t interfere with other people’s work time.

  39. Wait, what?*

    #3 I knew someone who THOUGHT he was in a similar situation- brought in to help the company. He did, but then couldn’t get any more changes out of the workers or owners to do anything more & was so frustrated. Turns out the owners were only interested in improving the business a little in order to sell it. But they hadn’t told this person that goal as he kept trying to implement policies to “grow the company,” when they didn’t care about that at all – just didn’t tell him. That might not be what’s happening here, but OP may not have all the information & could be trying things that the owners will never care about.

  40. CubeFarmer*

    LW#1: You absolutely need to stick up for yourself. Alison’s advice is very good. I would also sit down with your manager and tell that person what’s going on.

    1. Hannah Lee*

      The “tell your manager” is good advice, because sometimes the person who is getting camped out on and time-wasted AT gets blamed for it as much or more as the perp.

      You aren’t inviting or welcoming his visits/chats, you’d prefer their frequency to be Never. Boss needs to know that. (And may be helpful in shooing him off)

  41. Amanda*

    Correction on recruiting: for many executive searches a recruiter is retained to run the whole process and likely has expertise in the space. So, they may be engaged to solicit and interview both internal and external candidates.

  42. VoPo*

    For number 5: the recruiter could be on a retained basis so that they get paid no matter what. This could especially be true if the role is a very senior one. I used to work at a recruiting firm and for the retained roles, our clients would do this so that the interview process was consistent and streamlined (we also provided a lot of reporting in addition to interviewing). If it’s on a contingency basis, then yeah, there’s going to be an incentive against you unless the company has decided to let the recruiting firm “own” you as a candidate, which is unlikely.

  43. Samwise*

    OP 1
    you might need to say, “This feels awkward to say but I’m uncomfortable with you dropping by to chat so often after asking me out, and I’d prefer you stop.”

    No “might” about it. Start right there, no more trying to give hints or moving the chair away or worrying about hurting his feelings. In fact, let me edit out the softening words:

    “Greg, I’m uncomfortable with you dropping by to chat so often after asking me out, and you need to stop.”

    Greg is not worrying about YOUR feelings, otherwise he would take the hints and cut it out. If you feel like you’re being “rude”, OP1, just remember that he’s the one who’s put himself in this awkward situation, he is not being very polite himself, and most importantly, he is not going to stop until you tell him clearly and directly.

    BTDT.

  44. anon for this*

    OP 2
    Talk with your staff, but also, stop asking your staff to do the work of two or three or four people. Push the pain upstairs. You are less likely to make a case for needing to fill those empty positions if the work is still getting done.

    If you hadn’t said “union,” I would think you were talking about my office. Our boss is not standing up to their superiors and thus more and more staff are leaving. Including me.

    1. OP2*

      I wish I could but this is patient care. We can’t just not do it. And it’s not my boss or even my boss’ boss that’s not allowing the hiring. It’s the civil service commission that’s requiring us to justify why we need these positions. Ones that are people who left and are being backfilled.
      Case in point- one of my supervisors got promoted to another department. This person was in charge of the patient commissary so did all the ordering, inventory, etc. as well as supervised a department within my department. I said all that within my justification. Civil Service said “hold off and find alternate supervision.” Meanwhile I’ve picked up supervising those staff and all the paperwork that involves and one of those staff is doing all the ordering/inventory. Because we have to. Civil Service doesn’t care. And they honestly wouldn’t care if it didn’t get done. But the other regulatory bodies that supervise our hospital sure would, especially when the patients started calling and complaining.

      I have 11 open positions. I hired one and they’re holding him hostage at another location because they suddenly realized he was provisional in his title for a few months. Another MAY be posted to hire soon. The rest? I keep writing justifications and they go nowhere.

      BEFORE the freeze hiring USED to be like this:
      1. justification for position->supervisor->CEO->Downtown (okayed)
      2.Position posted
      3. Resumes screened by HR then us
      4. Interview with candidates ranked with justifications why
      5. Paperwork submitted for hiring->supervisor->CEO->downtown->HR
      6.Person okayed to hire by downtown or rejected
      7. hoops hoops hoops (paperwork, drug test, etc.)
      8. training

      Now step 1 involves like eight attempts at justifying why we need this position before they’ll okay posting it. It’s pretty demoralizing for me as well.

      1. anon for this*

        ” But the other regulatory bodies that supervise our hospital sure would, especially when the patients started calling and complaining.”

        I guess your bosses would care about that. Maybe an anonymous tip off to a regulatory agency. Why wait for patients to call and complain?

      2. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        What if you try a different approach–ask for pay increases to compensate the extra work everyone is doing. As in, make the case that if someone is doing the work of 2 or 3 people, they should be paid for the work of two people, especially in cases where the work is substantially different. Make the argument in a “well, if you won’t let me hire someone for this position, then we are going to have to start paying Chrisandra for doing her job AND Boblyn’s job, because her job description doesn’t cover the work that Boblyn did and we don’t want to get sued or in trouble with regulators about that” way.

        Basically, become a squeaky wheel that keeps demanding *something* until you get something, be it more people or at least more money for your existing overworked people. And if you can’t get anything, at least you can tell your employees you’re trying? Honestly knowing that my boss is trying is worth a lot, even if they don’t get anywhere. I would rather someone fight than give up.

        Also, I will say that personally, an Employee of the Month thing would honestly make me hate working even more, because those always feel like a popularity contest, even when done well. For demoralized people, it can make you feel like “oh, so nevermind that I’m doing all this extra work, it’s still not good enough” because with something like that, you can only reward one person at a time, even when everyone is doing their best.

        1. OP2*

          Pay increases are also regulated and have to be approved by downtown. We get regulated increases (“steps”) based on performance performance and and on a timed basis (you go up to step 6 after 2 years, step 7 after 2, etc.) and also COL increases by union contract. But if I wanted to push a step sooner I would have to write a, you guessed it, justification, as to why and send it through the multi-step process. Bonuses do not exist here.

  45. Art of the Spiel*

    Reason #9485739 why I could never, ever, write this column.

    I would have told LW1 to try demonstrating some disgusting habit, like picking your nose, while the infatuated guy is sitting there. Just casually start scraping, deep, and then “absent-mindedly” rub it on something, all while continuing to chat.

    He’ll lose all interest real quick and she doesn’t even have to say anything.

    2. MsM*

      I dunno, if he thinks energy drink sweat is a good pretext for flirting, it might make things worse.

    3. Calamity Janine*

      this is still more sensible than my first instincts, which were 1. just going “hey dude, who gave you this bad advice? when someone says they don’t wanna date you, it’s pretty weird to park yourself at their desk like this”, 2. bean burrito and juice cleanse may god have mercy on his nostrils

  46. Mallory Janis Ian*

    #4 In a former job I used to assist with guest lecturers’ travel, etc. We had one speaker who was confirmed in the fall semester for the spring semester lecture series, and when I followed up with him in the spring to assist with travel, get an advance copy of his PowerPoint slides, etc., he said he thought that since he hadn’t heard from us for a while that the lecture was off, and he had booked something else for that weekend. Reader, he sent his TWIN BROTHER, who wasn’t even an architect, to present his lecture for him!

  47. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    Re LW1, I recommend leaving the bracketed part out of Alison’s suggested wording:

    “This feels awkward to say but I’m uncomfortable with you dropping by to chat [so often after asking me out], and I’d prefer you stop.”

    It is less likely to make him think he can improve things by simply dropping by less often. And it is less likely to trigger the classic “I was only being friendly, geeze! Yes, I get that you turned me down!” and the worse “Oh, do you think any guy who talks to you has feelings for you?”

    Is it possible this is overly cautious? Well, you just don’t know. The most pleasant men can turn on a dime. It’s just the unfortunate current reality.

    1. Exhausted by **gestures at everything***

      Yes, this – if the only goal is to get him to go away, I would cut out any mention of “I’m uncomfortable because you asked me out” because that just leaves him room to insist that you shouldn’t be uncomfortable, because “he just wants to be friends!!” I cannot tell you how many guys have told me I need to stop being uncomfortable with their overtures of “friendship” because they’re not HITTING on me, jeez, stop being so narcissistic. Despite the fact that a true friend would stop if I said I was uncomfortable.

      Coworker to coworker, “I cannot have you stopping by, I’m working” is a cleaner message and harder to argue with.

  49. Pay no attention...*

    #5 At my university we always bring in a headhunting firm for top level positions and yet somehow the internal candidate, who is often the interim, seems to get the job 99% of the time. Seems like a waste of everyone’s time and money, but it’s not the headhunting firm that decides who gets the job, they just are the ones conducting the search and recruitment part — including I’m sure cold-contacting people in similar positions at other universities who aren’t even looking for a new position. Theoretically if they presented an external candidate that was better than the internal, we would hire them. They do get paid either way.

  50. Kevin Sours*

    There seems to be an entire genre of letters like “Work conditions here suck and I can’t make them better, how do I make people think they’re better?”. I get that it isn’t your fault but at some point your energy is going to be more profitably spent figuring out how to adapt to a baseline of poor morale.

    1. Calamity Janine*

      to be rather grim, i feel like we’re in for a lot more of those type of frustrations going forward. because, well. (gestures widely at the news headlines) but i digress.

      sometimes all that can really be done is accept that things kinda suck and encourage folks to think of work as A Thing You Get Through For Money While We All Suffer Together. there’s some ways that we have preserved historically that *were* ways to make work a little more fun, but even then, we don’t remember clog dancing to the sound of the industrial looms as a perk of the job that innovated people into staying in that workforce. we tend to think about how the work itself became much less miserable and more equitable by things like the abolition of child labor in England.

      sometimes it’s good management to admit that a thing sucks, that it’s not fun, and that you can’t change stuff. to again be grim about it, it’s kinda like the dynamic at the MASH 4077th (which was, of course, dramatized and significantly softened, but you get the idea). Col. Potter was not there to make sure everyone had fun. sure, there are concerns of morale, because living in an army camp means that is part of the ‘job’ to be concerned with your off-the-clock health as it were, and much more of that becomes the army’s job. so everyone loves Radar wheeling and dealing for food that’s delicious, and it’s important that the movie tent shows a flick from time to time, and Col. Potter isn’t going to bother Hawkeye’s still just as they aren’t going to bother him painting his horse. but there was no making the actual work fun. it’s kind of impossible to make it fun. anyone trying to make “Radar hears the choppers coming, another batch of wounded coming in, such is war” into a fun time will just end up making everyone more miserable. even Hawkeye knew that the OR was when the jokes had to be just verbal sparring, pranks and martinis were for outside that space, because there’s nothing fun to be had about digging yet more shrapnel out of soldiers and innocents.

      there is a sort of paradoxical freedom in realizing that something’s just going to kinda suck and you can’t change that. all the stress of feeling like you’re the person who has to solve it goes away. you just get to be up-front with how it sucks, everyone knows it sucks, we get through the suckage as best we can, and nobody has to waste time and effort putting on a happy face trying to convince others (and themselves) that it’s a totally cool fun time. more to the point for the LW, if the issues are systemic and bigger than one person can change… it’s okay to admit that instead of exhausting yourself tilting at windmills. sometimes you can make things better by just admitting they’re bad.

      1. OP2*

        OP2 here. Yeah. I’m just as demoralized as they are to be honest. I mean there’s only so many times one can write justifications as to why you need the positions you are supposed to have only to get them rejected before you start to feel like you are yelling into the void. Especially when you also are getting told to explain why you’re department isn’t hitting your benchmarks at 100%. Oh, I don’t know, let’s take a wild guess…

        What I was looking for a way to change, I guess, was the fact that every time I present staff as a whole with any information, neutral, bad, anything, all I get is complaints because their baseline is so negative. It’s just so exhausting. And they feed off each other. So if one complains, they all start to.

  51. Laura*

    LW1, please don’t feel awkward saying something you feel is rude! It feels rude to say “leave me alone, please,” because women are socialized not to upset men and men are socialized to feel that “wearing down a woman” works (thanks, Hollywood).

  52. letter writer 1*

    Hi all, LW1 here. To add more context to the situation: Greg and I have some mutual work friends and we’ve hung out as a group outside of work, but I don’t seek him out. I don’t get the impression he’s a bad person (and I have gotten bad vibes from people before), but just lonely and awkward. I’ll try out the suggested scripts and hopefully he will get the message.

    1. Calamity Janine*

      ah, that is an illuminating bit of detail that does indeed make things a little more delicate and explains why you’ve tried to be so politic!

      this is… risky advice, so take with all due daily requirement of sodium. but if he’s part of this mutual friend group, especially if you’ve had anyone in it kinda nudging him along in his crush for you, or if someone has already done that sort of mediator role before… you might see if you can subtly enlist their help. “hey Throckmornton, i know you’re pals with Greg. this really awkward thing keeps happening at work after i’ve turned Greg down. he just keeps parking himself beside my desk and trying to make small talk. did he get some bad advice about how girls like it when you’re persistent, or what? can you help me figure out how to tell him that it’s not great? i’ve been trying to not be harsh because of how awkward that could make things, and i don’t know if he’s just tuning me out or assuming i am just shy or whatever…”

      if they’re willing to play mediator, especially if they’ve done it before, that’s likely when they’ll jump in to explain things to Greg. sometimes a third party going ‘bruh, she’s not into you’ is impactful. especially if the third party can go ‘Greg, buddy, you’re doing the thing again, you know how you totally beefed it with Jennifer and you told me to warn you if you ever started doing that again? you’re doing the thing’.

      if they were once willing to play mediator but have hit their limit because Greg isn’t just lonely and awkward… you’ll get valuable information of “oh my god, AGAIN!? i’m so sorry, Greg did this to Jennifer who worked here two years before you started, it was a whole thing. i really hoped he’d learned better by now but he’s probably reading weird MRA shit again. i’m so sorry. i’ll make sure he’s no longer invited to our after-work get-togethers.” this is, mind you, kinda the least likely possibility in my mind, but it’s certainly a way to cut down on Greg being in your social spaces in one swell foop.

      if they’re not willing to play mediator, and they’re not a safe person to be around – this may be the opportunity they need to boldly admit that to you. ‘but i’m sure you’ll come around, that’s exactly what i told Greg!’, ‘you should just give him a chance! he’s just a little awkward! why don’t you date him already?’, ‘come onnnn, we all know you’re just playing hard to get, why do you think we keep inviting you out when he’s there too???’, and variations on that theme… yeah, it may show up kinda quickly if you need to jettison out of this after-work friend group. it’s going to be hard for Greg to actually hear your no if he’s got other people going all Grima Wormtongue in his ear about it, hissing that when you say no you actually mean maybe and try harder and also he shouldn’t trust this so-called Gandalf character under any circumstance. that’s your cue to dial way back on those mutual work friends and instead suddenly fill your after-work socializing time with that underwater basket weaving class you’ve always wanted to take.

      a useful bit of side reading here may be the Geek Social Fallacies. it’s not an exhaustive list, but it is a surprisingly common series of about five mind traps where i would bet my life savings* that at least one person in the extended work friend group – and that person may or may not be Greg, tbh – is operating under, and that’s why the situation feels so tricky to navigate. at the very least, they’re useful to spot in all sorts of settings, including one’s own head. being able to go “wait. i’m doing the thing” to myself has been a valuable bit of brain degunking, lol! it’s probably not going to be directly relevant in all ways this situation can shake out, but it’s still useful to know of.

      fwiw, i think that Captain Awkward may have some letters about this sort of situation wherein Dude That Isn’t Actively Malicious Or Bad Vibes Still Doesn’t Quite Seem To Get Yu Said No To A Date. those may also be useful to consult. they’re not going to be about workplace advice, but the after-work social get-togethers mean it’s bled out from just the workplace sphere, so Captain Awkward may have some useful wisdom for the social stuff.

      *making such bets is real easy when you’re disabled and can only legally have less than 2k in assets, mind you, but i’d still make the bet

    2. Craig*

      If Greg’s problem is just that he’s oblivious, and you’re worried about being rude, it may help if you tell yourself that you’re doing him a favour by being direct. He’s going to get himself in trouble one day behaving like this.

  53. AngryOwl*

    It would be great if, just once, people didn’t rush to defend a man doing something creepy and awful with “but what if he’s neurodivergent!!!1”.

    Many thanks to everyone fighting the good fight in the comments.

    1. Laser99*

      I said as much above. The condition “She said no but I’m hoping if I hang around enough she’ll give in” is creepiness, not neurodivergence.

    2. Emily Byrd Starr*

      (Sigh) It would also be great if neurotypicals would take commenters seriously when they say, “I am neurodivergent myself and I could easily see how he might not realize that he’s being inappropriate, because that was just the sort of thing I would have done before I was diagnosed and understood my own disability,” rather than dismissing us or acting like they understand neurodivergent brains better than we do.
      See, here’s the thing. Many neurodivergent people are unable to understand nonverbal communication or pick up on subtle hints. That’s not because we’re deliberately ignoring you or being obnoxious. It’s because our brains aren’t wired to recognize such signals as a form of communication. Think of it like texting a landline phone. The message isn’t going to be received, because landlines aren’t wired to pick up on text messages, no matter how many times you text them.
      Because we don’t recognize nonverbal signals as a form of communication, we often don’t realize the message that our own nonverbal communication is sending to others.
      It is entirely possible that Greg doesn’t believe that he’s inappropriate. Because he is no longer directly asking LW out, he may think that he’s just being friendly. I have seen many instances of neurodivergent people doing very similar things: not just myself when I was younger, but also from other neurodivergent people.
      TL; DR: Listen to neurodivergent people when they try to explain their brains work, rather than assuming that they’re making excuses for predators.

      1. Polly Hedron*

        Think of it like texting a landline phone.

        This is a great explanation.

  54. Amy*

    As an HR professional, not in US, I want to weigh in on #1 here. It is so very common for employees to feel uncomfortable directly confronting or redirecting this kind of behaviour. In an ideal world, would they be up to saying, I can’t talk, please leave me alone, sure. But that deals with the matter in the moment, and they know he’ll just be back tomorrow. The behaviour described here is not okay and you can take this right to HR. If you have a decent HR department, they will see what is happening, and shut it down.

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