people don’t like my face in the morning, waiting for a new boss to turn things around, and more

by Alison Green on June 30, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My manager said people don’t like my face in the morning

During a 1:1 with my supervisor, she said something that did not sit well with me. Before saying it, she looked away and told me she couldn’t look at me because it was stupid. Finally, she said that I need to work on being less bitchy when I come in. This threw me off completely, as I’m never bitchy when I walk in. So I asked what she meant. She said it’s not my attitude. It’s my FACE. My face is what other staff members find issue with.

I was beyond confused, so I asked her what that even means. She said that the look on my face when I come in is the equivalent to resting bitch face. This bothers people. So they decided to make a point to mention this to her, and rather than tell them no, she thought it was okay to bring to my attention. Should I bring this to upper management, as it strikes me as horribly unprofessional for my supervisor to say?

If she thought it was so stupid, she could have exercised some independent judgment as your manager and not brought it to you. By sharing it with you, she’s indicating that she thinks it’s something you need to act on. It’s a hallmark of a bad manager to pass along feedback they don’t stand by (unless it’s to say, “I don’t agree with this, but you should be aware it’s come up because of Political Reason X”).

But is there any chance there’s more to it than just your face and she’s just communicating badly? For example, if the culture in your office is to greet people when you pass them in the morning and you’re not doing that, or if you seem like there’s a storm cloud over you until you’re settled with coffee, it’s possible that’s behind it. But if it’s really just your face and nothing else, this is BS.

Either way, you could back to her and say, “I thought about what you said about my face when I arrive in the morning, and I’m not sure how to act on that. My face is just my face — I’m not glaring at people or giving dirty looks — but I’ll make more of a point of saying good morning to people and hopefully that will solve it. Is your sense that there’s something else specific I should be doing?” That last part isn’t there to imply you’re willing to have a face transplant, but to hopefully make her realize that so far what she’s said hasn’t been actionable at all.

2. What’s a reasonable amount of info to expect from a college student seeking an internship?

I’m the point person for internships for my healthcare-adjacent organization. The vast majority of those are masters-level graduate students, and those internship requirements are pretty heavily regulated by the schools and by state law. When someone writes to me asking if we have any opening for graduate-level internships, I know pretty immediately what would be required in terms of the type of work the intern would be doing and the amount and type of oversight that would be required.

I occasionally get emails from undergrads asking about internships. We do not have any sort of formal undergrad internship programs. I would like to encourage people to get into this field (especially since we’re facing a national shortage). However, any interns would not be working with me directly, and so I have to sell the internship, basically, to any of my peers who might be willing to oversee an intern. I can help with some of the supervision, but most of it would fall on other managers.

None of the students who write in on their own can give me any details or direction about what they need or want from an internship. When I ask, I get a lot of “Anything would be fine,” or “Anything in your field.” We are extremely understaffed, I have a hard time getting any managers to agree to even the very structured internships because of the amount of time the supervision and training would entail. I’m frustrated by the undergrad inquiries and I find myself thinking, “If you can’t even give me the number of hours you want to or need to complete, the timeline you desire, and some sense of what you want to accomplish, and any restrictions or requirements from your school, you are likely going to require way more hand-holding than we can do.”

Am I holding undergrads to an unrealistic standard? If they could provide me with more details, I’d at least be willing to try to see if I could find them something. I’m not sure how much hand-holding or back and forth I should be doing, and if my assumption that my needing to do that is a red flag or if it’s just what I should be expecting from undergrads.

I don’t think it’s a red flag; by definition the undergrad students have less experience in the work world (and are probably getting less guidance from their programs) than the graduate students who approach you.

In your first contact, try spelling out very clearly what you need from them. For example: “We don’t have a formal internship program for undergrads, but we’re open to creating internships under the right circumstances. Please respond with the following information: the number of hours you would like to complete (this can be a range), the starting and ending dates you’re seeking, any requirements from your school, and an idea of specifically what you would be seeking to accomplish during the internship. Please note: we need all of this information in order to move forward, and cannot consider applications without it.”

If you spell it out that clearly and they don’t come back with the answers you asked for, don’t put more energy into it. But try spelling it out first.

3. How long should I wait for a new manager to turn things around?

I have been working in the IT department of a company for a little over 1.5 years. We have always struggled with understaffing, but it feels it has gotten worse over the last few months. My new manager started a few months after I did and we have worked together to make some great projects happen, but the workload of the department has skyrocketed without staffing keeping pace. I have been pointing this out for over a year. Unfortunately, things move slowly and while he has been fighting to get more staff approved, it has not happened fast enough, never mind that even if/when it’s approved, it takes forever to fill the slot and train someone.

I am approaching burnout quickly. I like my projects, I like my team for the most part and I like the money and the freedoms I have, so I would hate to quit. What is a reasonable amount of time to wait for new management to implement changes before throwing in the towel?

Over a year is a long time to wait, particularly when you say you’re quickly approaching burn-out and there are no real signs of impending change. Why not start looking now? Since you otherwise like your job, you can be picky and don’t need to jump at the first thing that comes along, but getting options in the mix will give you a lot more control in the situation.

Read an update to this letter. 

4. I was asked to sign an NDA before talking about a job

I recently was reached out to by a CEO of a company that I had previously done some consulting for. It had been over a year since I had talked to them and they wanted to set up a meeting to reconnect. Since we last talked, I began working full-time again and no longer consult. I was open to connecting and could at least forward their questions to other industry contacts.

When we connected, they mentioned they liked working with me and wanted to talk about a vague high-level position and the networking call turned into an unplanned hour-long group interview without any chance for preparation on my side. The company provided no details about the level of the position or what it would require.

Before the company provides a job title or description, they need me to sign a NDA. Since they reached out to me to recruit me and are not providing even the basic details, this is a big red flag to me. What is your wisdom on this?

I don’t think it’s a particular red flag. If you’re open to hearing them out and don’t object to the terms of the NDA, sign it and see what they have to say. It doesn’t obligate you to continue beyond that. If you’re not that interested, let them know you’re not currently looking for work and leave it there! The fact that they reached out to you rather than the other way around isn’t really a factor in navigating it (and doesn’t make their request appreciably weirder).

5. What’s the deal with recruiters?

I see people talk about “recruiters” all the time, but I don’t really have an understanding of what that is. What industries use recruiters, and at what levels? Are they qualified to do things like mapping one’s skills and experience onto jobs, or is that more of a job coach thing? When someone has a resume of things but is open to switching sectors/industries, do they call a recruiter for help?

I have this image of someone in tech getting headhunted, but it seems like “recruiter” can mean a wide variety of things.

Lots of different industries use recruiters; in fact, I’m not sure there’s an industry that never uses them, particularly at more senior levels, although they’re definitely more common in some (like tech) than others.

The big thing to know is that recruiters work for employers, not job seekers. Employers hire them to fill jobs, and then they seek out candidates for those specific positions. They mostly don’t do things like helping you figure out what your skills and experience might qualify you for (unless they look at your resume and realize you’d be a great fit for something they happen to be hiring for). That’s more of a job coach thing.

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{ 329 comments }

{ 329 comments… read them below }

  1. Lioness*

    #1 people get really particular about their mornings.
    I greet people in the morning but I don’t sounds super duper chipper the way one coworker likes to have me do. I just ignore it. I say good morning. Greet people as I walk by. As long as I’m not rude, I ignore the coworker’s morning greetings lessons. Never had it to the point brought up to management or if they did at least it wasn’t passed along.
    It sucks when there isn’t something to actually act on.

    1. The Bobs*

      +1 I totally agree. As long as we say good morning to our coworkers, especially if they say it to us first, why would anyone even care what your face looks like? Don’t they have more important things to think about…like their freaking job duties?

      I had a boss straight up tell me I needed to ‘fix my face’ at my first job after grad school. That lady, and that entire office was so unprofessional and ridiculous. It was like working in a time warp with dysfunctional people.

      OP1, your face is fine.

      1. Judy*

        My colleagues don’t say good morning. None will pry their faces out of their phones long enough to.

      2. Nice cup of tea*

        If OP 1 was me, I’d be starting my mornings with the most fake smile and good morning to everyone.

        I’m not recommending that everyone be so petty, but malicious compliance does it for me.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Yeah, unfortunately something like this is saying, “You are required to be FAKE HAPPY AND PERKY!!!!” every morning. I would absolutely be doing that.

          (Though it reminds me of when I was told I had to be happy at work, and when I used Fake Perky Voice!, they complained about that too. They just didn’t like me as a person.)

          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            I tried to be perky once and a male coworker asked if I had “doubled up on the diet pills today” because I “seem really hyper.” That was the end of that! (It was years ago, when diet pills were basically speed. Clearly not the impression I was trying to make, even without the side order of fatphobia/sexism. I’m not fat, but I guess all women were supposed to be taking diet pills just in case.)

    2. DJ Abbott*

      Yes, that’s so annoying when people impose their emotional needs on you. Your coworker’s need to have people be super duper chipper in the morning is hers to manage, not yours! Many people are not like that, and she needs to deal with it.
      If I was OP1, my concern would be that the boss thinks there’s something to be done here. Does the boss have reasonable expectations? What are her expectations on other things? Can OP1 reasonably meet them – including this one – or should she be looking to get out of there?

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed with Alison here too. Undergrads would not know how to answer this question and I don’t think they would understand that you are looking for them to define the entire internship. I think it is totally reasonable to ask them to do that, but it has to be made more clear. They are very much assuming that they need to be super flexible and open to whatever you are willing to do – that’s what I assumed as an undergrad looking for internships!

    3. OrangeCup*

      Flashbacks to the the my high school homeroom teacher actually tried to get me in trouble for not smiling at her in the morning. I did say good morning, I just didn’t smile. I pointed out I didn’t even smile at my mom in the morning and she gave birth to me. I’m not a morning person. Because I was one of the “good kids” it didn’t work and I got a new homeroom. Didn’t see it for what it was at the time – an adult bullying a child and I found out later I was not the only kid she bullied.

      But also have been dinged in my career with feedback like this that’s not actionable. When people can’t complain about your work or you outshine them, they will pick on whatever they can and appearances are the easy thing to pick on.

      1. I See Real People*

        It’s the same vague complaint at annual reviews when they want you to develop soft skills because someone said you were rude one time during the year and give no context.

    4. ursula*

      I’m annoyed on behalf of LW1. As a profoundly non-morning-person, it’s bad enough that the world operates on morning peoples’ schedules. Being forced to perform being happy about it is a bridge too far.

      But! Is there any chance the LW is actually projecting such a gloom cloud that people are hesitant to talk to them, including to ask necessary work questions? I can definitely imagine a level where this would be an actual problem. I might be steel manning the argument here, based on the boss’ weird demeanor and use of the word “bitchy” (which, idk, is that LW’s word or hers? if it’s hers, that’s kind of a gross way to talk to your staff), but this might be worth thinking about – and I think would be a fair thing for coworkers to complain about if so. (Although ideally they’d say something to LW first.)

      1. huh*

        On your last point, I can see this being ~almost~ okay if the boss and LW have a very casual relationship (which is potentially problematic by itself), but even then just opening up with “be less bitchy” is a wild way to approach this.

      2. Portia*

        “Bitchy” does sound like it came from the manager, and it adds a creepy sexist element to this. While a man *might* be asked to change his expression, I suspect he’d have to reach a truly terrifying level of gloom and menace before the issue would come up. And the word “bitchy” would not be part of the discussion.

        If LW is genuinely hard to approach in the morning, there should be ways to approach that, but the manager didn’t even claim that’s the case. If it’s just that some people think women should consider their expression and look pleasant every freaking second, to hell with that.

      3. a bright young reporter with a point of view*

        Truly I don’t think I would be able to take in anything useful my boss was saying if they were casually throwing around that word, directed at me! Nope, don’t call me a bitch, don’t call my face bitchy, that’s extremely offensive, don’t use that word at work, ever. I mean, if your judgment is that bad, why would I trust you?

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, I had to do deep breathing exercises to get through feedback with sexist connotations like saying I was “abrasive” or “aggressive”. I’ve flat-out told a manager that he should never use the word “uppity”.

          For “bitchy” I would immediately end the meeting and go to HR. It’s such a sexist and derogatory framing that I wouldn’t be able to trust the feedback–or the supervisor.

          1. Keyboard Jockey*

            I got called “spunky” once by a much older male boss. In fairness to him, he realized the mistake as soon as he saw my face, which was definitely bitchy.

      4. April*

        It was my supervisor’s words. Which completely threw me off, as I am almost always smiling when I walk in, saying hello, & getting ready for my shift. I am employed as a DSP at a group home – smiling & being pleasant is a big part of the job, as it helps with resident interactions & behaviour. Another reason her saying what she did bothers me is due to the fact we have staff who rarely smile, are usually in horrible moods, & nothing has been said to them. I’m the “New Girl” (been @ this house 8 months), & I’m feeling as though I’m being nitpicked for something so petty based mostly on this fact, & my supervisor even mentioning it to me just feels highly unprofessional & completely unnecessary.

    5. Van Wilder*

      If it’s truly just about people not liking your face in the morning, what is up with your office? Do people often escalate pretty complaints and try to take each other down a peg? Is it a super competitive environment? Or sexist? Something is weird.

      1. Bast*

        Yeah, this seemed super odd to me too. Is it a purely personal thing? A woman in an office full of men who is always being told to “smile more?” Just a petty office environment? Plenty of people are not morning people and come in looking tired and zombie-like. The only other scenario I can see is something customer facing like reception or retail, where you are expected to have a “customer service” face on at all times, but that also doesn’t seem like the case here.

        1. metadata minion*

          Yeah, someone would have to be either genuinely foul-tempered in the morning or have a really epic level of RBF going on for me to expect people to comment on it.

          My dad is one of the few men I know who got people regularly commenting on his face, and between a fairly heavy brow and an unfortunate default thinky-face he really did look like he was contemplating murder on a regular basis. :-b

          2. Freya*

            I have Resting Worried Face (to the point that I have had an infinite stream of people over the last 40 years checking in to see if I was OK when I was 100% fine and just not emoting beyond baseline) and I currently pause and check as I’m leaving the car to go in to the office to ensure that I have just enough animation in my face and vocal tones to forestall the inevitable RUOK? that I otherwise get from people who I really don’t care to involve in my personal life. Once I’m at my desk, I can let my worksona face drop because no one can see it over my monitors. It’s a small use of energy that fends off a much larger time and energy suck. It’s like prepping to talk about one bland thing you did over the weekend that you’re comfy sharing in conversation – a small thing that stops concerned people prying unnecessarily.

      2. April*

        Pettiness is a big thing where I work, & it’s absolutely ridiculous as to what level. Especially when we’re all adults well over highschool age & expected to be a team who support one another, rather than run to our supervisor every time we find something stupid to complain about.

    6. Hello, it's me*

      I’m wondering if this is just the manager’s opinion. She may realize it’s ridiculous, or just not want to be the “bad guy.” Hope LW doesn’t worry too much which of her coworkers expressed this criticism. It seems very possible that this is a particular quirk of the manager. “Aren’t we all haaaapppy to be here today?”

      1. Festively Dressed Earl*

        I was wondering the opposite. “During a 1:1 with my supervisor, she said something that did not sit well with me. Before saying it, she looked away and told me she couldn’t look at me because it was stupid” – what is “it” here? Is the supervisor saying that she couldn’t look at LW because the complaint was stupid or because the supervisor thinks LW’s face is stupid?

        1. knitted feet*

          “Before saying it”. ‘It’ is the thing the manager was going to say. Come on now – this is bad enough without spinning off into wondering whether an actual supervisor in an actual 1:1 said ‘I can’t look at you, your face is too stupid’.

    7. toolegittoresign*

      I found out after leaving a job that one woman I worked with didn’t like me because I “don’t smile at people in the hallway.”
      Seriously.
      If I’m walking down the hallway to go to a meeting and thinking about what I’m going to say and pass someone — no, I am not always going to make eye contact and smile every time.
      And I wasn’t scowling or ignoring her. And if she greeted me, of course that would snap me out of my thoughts and I’d smile and say hello back. Apart from walking in the hallway somewhere, I am a friendly, chatty person.
      That was my first office job and it taught me so much about how some people are ready to take *anything* personally.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          On the other hand, if someone seems to be lost in thought or concentrating on something when they walk by, there’s no point in taking it personally if they don’t nod to you or say hello. Some people just don’t notice who they’re passing in the hallway all the time.

        3. Irish Teacher.*

          Perhaps not but it still seems a bit over the top if people are getting bent out of shape when somebody doesn’t do it. It really doesn’t seem much of a reason to take a dislike to somebody.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, this is dumb.

        Allegedly, someone once asked Ringo Starr why he looked so sad all the time. His answer: “It’s just me face.”

        1. Christine*

          So customers should see that, as well? I mean, I don’t want to go to my doctor’s office and always have to deal with the desk person who looks grumpy all the time.

          1. Book bug*

            Yes. Customers should be able to deal with the fact that the desk person has a face they might not like or might be having other things going on in their life that don’t revolve around work.

            1. Dahlia*

              “Should” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

              In the real world, if a customer walks into a business and the first person they encounter is someone who’s glaring at them like they shouldn’t be there, they aren’t going to want to come back.

      2. Christine*

        That’s not really how it works, and “police my face” seems a bit over-reactive. It’s mature, and, frankly, not too much to ask, to at least have a facial expression of approachability in the workplace. Sure there are exceptions, like just having gotten bad news, but those stand out as the random things they are, so people would get why you might not look approachable in that instance.

        I understand avoiding toxic positivity – because omg no on that – but it’s not that deep otherwise, fam.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          If someone’s expression is naturally serious or dour when they’re concentrating hard on something, it might be too much to ask for them to constantly be aware of the expression they’re making and to force it into something acceptable to others. If they are in a customer-service or reception position, where they need to seem approachable at all times to people who don’t know them, then a pleasant expression is a legitimate job requirement. If they’re just sitting at their desk and scowling at a spreadsheet they’re trying to get to work, though? It’s a lot to ask that someone interrupt their focus to look friendly just in case someone wants to approach them. (Note that this is about expression only. If someone is cursing out the spreadsheet or slamming drawers in frustration, that’s something they should work on controlling.)

          It’s a particular issue because the requirement to have a pleasant face/smile is applied to women far more often than men and because controlling one’s facial expressions is something neurodivergent people frequently struggle with.

          1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            Constantly being aware of one’s facial expressions and schooling them into pleasantness is basically half the definition of “masking”.

      3. April*

        THANK YOU!!! My face isn’t there to make other staff happy, & the fact they felt ok bringing this “issue” to our supervisor to begin with is just so far beyond ridiculous.

    9. RVA Cat*

      As the parent of a rising middle schooler obsessed with Five Nights at Freddy’s and other mascot horror franchises I’d be tempted to be *creepy cheerful*.

    10. AnotherOne*

      I’m not a morning person. Just don’t speak to me the first two hours of the day.

      My mom was the same way.

      But I learned my system from her. I get up about an hour before I have to leave for work (2 hours before I have to be at my desk for WFH.) It means I have a nice slow start to my day.

      If I’m commuting, I don’t have to really stress about my commute, that’s plenty of time. If I’m not, I have an extra hour of vegging time. By the time, I start working I can be chipper as can be.

      (I admit- I’m pretty sure her system was heavily a result of having kids, especially high schoolers who started school at 7:30 and had a 6:20 bus drop off a mile away. You did not speak to my mom in the morning when I was in high school.)

    11. Curious Cat*

      I had a coworker get on to me for not sounding chipper enough when I answered my personal cell before work. The issue wasn’t my tone. It was the fact that my voice sounded gravelly. She was calling early enough that I wasn’t even out of bed! It was perfectly reasonable for me to not be up yet.

      1. Christine*

        Yes. Anything before work is time we get to spend as we see fit. I ride the same bus as a co-worker and she wants to turn this time into mini-meetings. My holding polite but firm boundaries has her acting put off. Blah…

        1. RVA Cat*

          Wouldn’t having business meetings on the bus breach client confidentially or expose trade secrets?

    12. tina turner*

      They could put up a mirror where LW could see it. We don’t always realize how we look to others.

      1. I Have RBF*

        No. Just, no.

        I look at my RBF all the time. I’m not gonna perform happiness before noon. You don’t like my RBF? Don’t look. I’m not surly, I just have RBF when I’m thinking about all the sh… stuff I have to do. It’s not about you. You are not the main character in my world. My expression does not revolve around you.

        People who police other people’s RBF need to get over themselves. Your main character syndrome is annoying. My thinking face is a focused face, not a smiley face. I am not a performing monkey.

    13. Momma Bear*

      I had an old boss who wanted me to specifically say hello each morning and she groused about it enough that I started a perfunctory hello and good bye. I wasn’t any more chipper, but I was checking the box. I would want more actionable information – if it’s a greeting, you can do that. If it’s just a vibe, then…? I also wonder who are “people.”

      Some of us aren’t morning people. If it’s just a morning complaint, then they should leave LW alone until the coffee kicks in. I have a coworker who gives me time to settle in before stopping by, and I really appreciate it.

    14. Dek*

      I have a coworker who started having an attitude about me not saying good morning to her if I saw her when coming in. The thing is, I usually DID, but my voice is pretty quiet in the morning, or if I haven’t been talking for a while. When I realized that was the problem and made an effort to be heard, I got a sarcastic “Oh, so now you say good morning” type response and just decided…yeah, alright, I’m not bothering at all.

      I don’t understand why folks get so snotty about mornings. It’s. MORNING.

  2. Crencestre*

    LW3: YES to Alison’s advice; PLEASE tell any undergrads seeking internships exactly what Alison suggested. Applicants of ANY age or level or experience aren’t mind-readers and it’s unreasonable to expect them to magically know just what information you need. Very likely, those undergrads know that they’re very interested in your field but are not certain of what roles might be open to an intern; even if they do have something definite in mind, they may be afraid of seeming too demanding, arrogant or entitled if they speak up and ask for it.

    Saying that they’re willing to do “anything” may simply be their way of signaling their willingness to be flexible and their recognition that they don’t expect to be running the place a week after they start! LW, if you’re really interested in carving out a possible internship for an undergrad, Alison is spot-on; be clear, specific – and patient. We were ALL beginners once (and that means you too!); treat these importunate undergrads as YOU would have wanted employers to treat YOU when you yourself were an eager undergrad. It’ll benefit the undergrad applicants AND your own professional reputation!

    1. Sparrow*

      I was coming here to say this same thing! I remember being a young student talking with a colleague of my dad’s about potentially interning at her organization, and I was terrified to answer the “What are you looking for?” question. I assumed they were just asking broadly about what sort of work I’d be up for doing (it didn’t even occur to me that the question could be referring to the specific guidelines of my program, which I figured they’d ask separately), and while I did have some things in mind, I didn’t think it was actually okay to list those. Which seems strange looking back on it now, but I think my concerns were:

      – While there were definitely some things I’d be more interested in, I really just wanted to get an internship at this place regardless of what they’d have me doing, and I was scared that if I said “I’m interested in A, B, or C” she’d respond with “Well, we’ve only got internships available in X, Y, or Z, so we’re not gonna bring you on, bye”
      – Throughout school, the idea of being a Team Player was drilled into my head. In all the career preparation classes I took, my teachers really emphasized that doing well in the professional working world required a lot of flexibility and a willingness to do whatever your boss told you to do
      – When I had done group projects at school before (closest thing I had to work experience at the time), coming into a project confidently stating exactly what the project was going to look like and exactly what role you’d have was generally looked down upon, and I figured this was the same sort of thing and would be viewed the same way

      Looking back now, I can see how all of that was wrong and how my non-answer probably annoyed the shit out of her—but at the time, how was I supposed to know any better?

      You seem to have a pretty clear idea already of exactly what information you need from these people. Please just spell all of that out instead of expecting people with zero-to-no experience to figure out what you mean!

      1. BigLawEx*

        This! When I was interning in college, I wanted to (and did) end up working at a local TV station. I thought I was interested in news, but I was open to so much more, and had so little experience that I didn’t want to foreclose options based on my impression of what that working environment would be like.
        There were more than a few places that really honed in on, you said you want *A* but we’re only interested in hiring for *B* that I really learned to give a general answer. It’s only when I was *open to anything* that I was able to get an internship….

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        All of this but also that a lot of internships don’t really give you a choice about what you get to work on anyway, so asking what they’re interested in can feel almost silly from the student’s side. They’re often interested in whatever you have available because finding can internship can often be stressful and they’ll take what they can get.

        1. knitted feet*

          Right – I don’t think it would occur to me even now, much less as an undergrad, that a company would be putting together a bespoke internship specifically for me! I’d assume they either had specific, pre-defined programmes or nothing at all. I would never have thought I could go in with a list of requests, especially if there weren’t any specific requirements from my institution.

      3. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        I came here to say this. If I need the equivalent of an internship more than I need some specific aspect, the last thing I want is to put myself out of the running by being specific about what are really only preferences. I assume the other party has a lot more constraints than I do–like I would not expect to be able to dictate the number of hours!–and I want them to state their constraints first. In a situation like this, there’s an imbalance in power, and I expect to have to conform to what’s available, within my ability to do so.

      4. Azure Jane Lunatic*

        When I was fairly young, I wanted a treehouse. My dad told me that I needed to draw up plans and a list of materials for the treehouse, and he would get them and make it.

        I had no idea where to start with that, and I never got my treehouse.

    2. bamcheeks*

      Yes! I can’t tell if you’re doing that already, LW, and if you are, and they can’t answer, it’s OK to move on. (You could also direct them back to their university careers team, who could help them identify what they want and write a more useful answer.) But if you are just asking something like, “Can you give me details of what you’re looking for?” then I also would necessarily know that you are ideally looking for timescales and any formal grade/course requirements, rather than eg. “What specialty?”

      In your shoes, I’d probably create a template for them to complete which asks whether they have any formal requirements for credit, and exactly what they are. However, if you get a number which are self-motivated, “just looking for a taster” people, then I’d consider creating a short programme and making that a standard offer to people who don’t know what they are looking for. I don’t know exactly what level of “short” would be possible for you, but even half a day of work-shadowing can be a real eye-opener and incredibly informative for someone at the early stage of career decision-making, and it’s a much easier sell to your colleagues.

      1. T.*

        These emails are the modern equivalent of “just show up in person with your resume and they’ll have to give you the job”. Someone said try all these places and look for an internship but nobody told them how. Set some expectations. Put together some sinple tasks that interns could take off the plate of your employees and get your grad program to help them too. Undergrads need help learning the social etiquette of work. They’ll never learn if we don’t teach them.

        2. Kelly L.*

          Yup. The grad students are probably doing this as part of a curriculum, it’s attached to a for-credit class, and they’re being guided through every step of it. The undergrads just heard somewhere that you Should Have an Internship.

      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, I, a working adult with over a decade of experience, wouldn’t necessarily parse “What were you thinking of?” as a request for “How many hours a week?” but more “What department are you interested in?” If I’m an inexperienced undergrad who doesn’t even know what the departments *ARE*, and definitely doesn’t have a preference yet, I can see how that would lead to the unhelpful “Anything!” responses.

        1. Seashell*

          Yeah, I wouldn’t come to the conclusion that question meant how many hours a week either. It could mean “what tasks do you want to do?”, and they may be fine with anything they could reasonably do, from data entry to answering the phone to emptying the waste baskets.

          I could see asking if they’re available full-time or part-time, since that might narrow down the possibilities for the hours involved.

    3. Slinky*

      Yes! From an undergrad’s perspective, they probably think they’re being helpful by saying “anything.” You don’t have to go to any special effort; anything is fine! Working professionals, of course, know differently, but it’s completely understandable that that wouldn’t be intuitive to a student with little or no real-world experience.

    4. Former professor*

      It’s also the case that undergrads are probably hoping that an internship will help them learn what the possible roles even look like. For instance, it’s not outrageous that an econ major might (a) know that econ majors often get jobs at banks after graduation and that (b) the only contact they’ve ever had with a person who works at a bank are tellers and the bankers who can open a checking account and (c) that there must be some other kind of job at a bank besides those two roles, but not what it is. They’re at the “don’t know what they don’t know” stage.

      I agree with the suggestions above to maybe make a short inquiry form. You could also include a checkbox list of skills that some but not all interns have that would affect how useful they could be (e.g., comfortable working in Excel?). If there’s a way to summarize the broad areas of what your colleagues who might supervise them work on/tasks that they might be asked to do, you could have that summary and ask them to select a top 2-3, possibly with a brief description of what they might want to work on in that space.

      1. Parrhesia25*

        I earned a second bachelor’s after I received a master’s. The field work for the master’s was fairly structured – there were specific experiences I was supposed to have. And I was in a divinity program, which trains you for a wide variety of work. The field work for the second bachelor’s was fairly unstructured, in a way that surprised both me and my field site. The bachelor’s field work basically required a certain number of hours doing something relevant to my degree (library informatics). I am not surprised that someone used to dealing with graduate student interns in a healthcare field is being thrown by undergrads who are mostly trying to find out what is out there. I like Allison’s answer – it accommodates the rare undergrad who needs something structured while gently communicating to the “what-have-you-gots” that he probably can’t help them.

      2. LL*

        Yes, this! They don’t know what types of jobs exist in this field or at this organization, so they don’t know what to ask for.

    5. becca*

      All of this. Keep in mind too, that a significant portion of undergrads (maybe even all of them) have never had an internship, and some may have never had a job, and they don’t have a clear idea in their head of what it’s like or what’s required of them, and they’re not used to being able to speak up for themselves about it. They know they need an internship to be able to graduate from their program, but may not have a clear idea of it beyond that.

      Instead of asking “What do you want to accomplish,” I wonder if it might be better to ask, “What put you on our radar? Why are you interested in working here for your internship?” You’ll probably still get a fair number of people with vague answers, who are basically fine with interning anywhere, but a few might be like, “I’ve seen your events around the community and am interested in your commitment to making access to health care equitable” or “I really like your brand of MRI machine” or “My mom works in the teapots department,” and that will give you hints about their thought process and interests, even if they aren’t yet able to frame what they’re looking for in job interview-speak.

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      YES! When I was 19 or 20, I would have thought that going it with requests for specific dates, hours, etc would be “demanding” and would “put employers off”/ “make them think I was difficult to work with.”

      Now, in my 40s, I can see it makes things easier if you give them some idea of what you need but at that age, I would have assumed that saying “anything” would make it easier for the and having specific needs would make it more complicated.

    7. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I’d reword Alison’s last suggested sentence to “proposal” instead of “application” because that’s what it is. If a student wants an internship created for them, the emphasis should be on thought, not filling in blanks.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Except in this case it’s not clear that the interns know they asking an internship be created for them. They’re asking if internships are available and probably think it either is or it isn’t. Alllllll the internal stuff OP is talking about, and why they want the info they want, if nobody’s said it explicitly, the undergrads have zero reason to think that’s the case.
        If they were reaching out saying “I see you only offer grad program internships, but would you consider taking me on as an undergrad?” then absolutely agree with you.
        But I got the impression this is neither an application nor a proposal really. It’s more of a feeler.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          Yep. The student may be thinking “hmmm, I need to do an internship, LWs Company is in an area I’m interested in, I wonder if they do internships? I’d be able to live at home if they do! I should call and ask!”.
          LW, the best things you can do are 1-TELL THEM you don’t have a formal undergrad intern program. 2-If you are interested in having them (undergrad interns, that is), you should have a form/questions to ask them so you can figure out what they want and can do, and you should already know people interested in hosting them. And most importantly, don’t be put off when the vast vast majority of them do not follow up. They may have three other possible places that DO have formal programs, and it’s way easier for an undergrad to get into a formal internship program than it is for them to add on the work of figuring out how to set one up from practically scratch. It would probably be better for you to have the framework of a position set up first, because let’s be honest, no intern wants to go through all this with you and then have you say “Oh, actually person X can’t have an intern this summer” and suddenly there they are with nothing.

    8. Momma Bear*

      I think it’s also that they don’t know what they don’t know yet. Some direction will help them know what to ask for/expect.

    9. Coverage Associate*

      Seconding all the comments re the difference between a graduate school internship as part of a degree program and the undergraduate looking for volunteer or low paid work or shadowing opportunities just for the resume or future job application. Usually when we read about required internships, at any level, the schools are working with the same employers repeatedly and are able to tell the students and employers about expectations. Of course, there could be undergrads going outside those boxes, but I would hope those would have initiative to provide more substance in their inquiries. (Eg, “I am working towards a degree in X at far away university but spending the next y months near you for Z general reason and am hoping for an internship that would help me prepare for…”)

      It would be great if OP could also provide at least the titles of people who have supervised undergraduate internships in the past, or a list of the titles of people in roles that would be appropriate for supervising an undergraduate internship. Even better if it has 2 sentences about what each job does. (I say just titles in case you don’t want people contacting other individuals directly, and I am thinking of material that a lot of organizations already have online or internally, like an org chart or the job description attached to each person’s intranet page, not the full one from HR but a more public facing one.) Is it just me, or could setting up an undergraduate internship application be a good project for a summer intern? Making the application, drafting the information applicants need from existing sources, drafting evaluation and planning documents, first day instructions. I and my friends did similar things for small organizations as undergrads.

  3. nnn*

    #2: In my capacity as a former student who applied for a lot of internships and a current professional whose responsibilities include supervising interns, I’ve never been exposed to a situation where things like number of hours, timeline, what you accomplish, etc. are up to the student or even are things the student has a say in. The intern’s train of thought is “I should do an internship because that’s a good way to get work experience. Let me look for places to apply.”

    In every internship situation I’m aware of, employers already have a particular role/slot/system/program in mind for interns – much like you do for your graduate interns! – and interns take what’s available to them and adjust their school, other employment, etc. to accommodate the internship, because the internship has greater long-term value.

    So yeah, I absolutely agree with Alison that if you need this information you should specifically ask for it, but I don’t think it’s a red flag that they haven’t thought about it before. There’s a decent likelihood this is just the first time they’ve been exposed to a situation where they’re the ones who have to answer these questions.

    1. Adam*

      Yeah, this is what internships in most industries are like: regular jobs. The company decides what they want an intern to do, then lets people apply if they want to do that. If it works differently in LW’s company or industry, that’s fine, but you should recognize that you’re the outlier and nobody has any way to know that’s how it works unless you tell them.

    2. LW2*

      I think I’m realizing the main issue is that we really don’t have any particular role/slot/system/program in mind for undergraduate interns. Anything we’d have for them feels more like we’d be doing them a favor — we don’t have the kind of work where they’d actually be able to substantially contribute much; they’d probably mostly be shadowing employees — so I think that’s where my sense of, “I need you to come to me with some actual plan or motivation, because otherwise I have to design your internship from scratch and I don’t have time to do it” comes from.

      It’s helpful to hear feedback and realize that I’m probably being unfair in my expectations, though, because it points me to a realization that we’re just not really set up for undergrad interns. There’s one particular organization we work with that coaches undergrad interns, where the interns get a lot of structure and support from that organization, and that seems to work reasonably well. It may just be that we can’t really offer much to other applicants.

      I’ll take Alison’s advice, because it’s possible that if I give some guidance and someone comes back with a fairly robust and/or enthusiastic plan, then I can pass them off to a likely not-super-enthusiastic manager. I just need someone in the equation to have some direction.

      1. Former professor*

        Based on what you’ve said, I also think that it’s totally fine to say “we aren’t able to support internships, but we can have students job shadow employees; we’re flexible in what that looks like, from [a single half-day to twice a week for a month]. If that’s something you’re interested in, can you let me know [details]” with whatever the range of shadowing you’re actually able to support would be.

      2. Just Thinkin' Here*

        LW2, this was going to be my feedback. It sounds like undergrad interns are probably not the best given your current setup. I’ve had great internships where there is a specific project / task I need to accomplish in the summer. And I’ve had terrible internships where they didn’t know what to do with me and I wasted time playing online. By the time you realize the internship isn’t great, it’s too late to find another. I would suggest if you don’t have the capacity to monitor an undergrad intern regularly, both sides would be better off skipping the experience.

      3. AnotherOne*

        I feel like you need to acknowledge (to yourself and others) it’s okay to say we don’t do undergrad internships and refer undergrads to programs in your institution that may offer work shadowing or volunteering, stuff like that.

        But sometimes it’s important to acknowledge, it’s okay that we don’t do this thing. What we do is enough.

      4. knitted feet*

        I think this is it – what you have to offer is pretty different from how most undergrad internships work. Applicants aren’t magically going to know that, and just asking them what they’re looking for in broad terms is not going to clue them in.

      5. Potatoes*

        “ though, because it points me to a realization that we’re just not really set up for undergrad interns”

        So just reply to the undergraduate askers that your company doesn’t do internships for U/G students, call back when they’re in grad school. That seems like the best way forward.

      6. Limmmm*

        “Anything we’d have for them feels more like we’d be doing them a favor”

        That’s an incredibly toxic mindset.

        1. LW2*

          We work providing services to people on public assistance and our staff is stressed out beyond belief, due to the overwhelming need and the constant threat, right now, that our funding will be significantly cut at any moment. But sure, we’re toxic for not being able to take time away from protecting vulnerable people with histories of trauma to design an internship from scratch from a college kid.

        2. K-Chai*

          That’s not toxic, that’s realistic. In many cases an internship IS a favor to some degree (particularly unpaid internships, at least legally), and it’s SUPER weird to act like realistically assessing that having undergraduate interns would likely create more work for LW2’s office and primarily benefit the student is unreasonable.

      7. LL*

        Yeah, I think it’s good to know that you aren’t set up for undergrad internships. Because then you can just tell them that and they can look elsewhere.

      8. fhqwhgads*

        I think if you’d be passing them to a “not-super-enthusiastic manager”, you’re better off just saying “sorry, we don’t have internships available for undergrads”.
        You really truly don’t need to come up with something from scratch just because they inquired, and you don’t need to follow through with letting them do an internship they designed themselves just because they proposed it.
        Your colleagues are swamped as it is. Your expectations from these potential interns can be off-base AND it can still be something you ought to just say no to. Both can be (and I suspect are) true.

      9. AngryOctopus*

        Your best bets are either to say “I’d love to have undergrad interns” but then YOU have to design the general program that undergrads then apply to (you the company, not necessarily you specifically), or you say “I’m so sorry, we don’t have an undergrad intern program. Best of luck!”.

    3. bamcheeks*

      We use slightly different terminology in the UK, but I am assuming that the opportunities for undergraduates are more like what I’d call work-shadowing (1-2 days of literally sitting beside someone and seeing what they do) or work-experience (1-2 weeks of attending work and completing a few low-level tasks, but definitely organised ad-hoc around the work experience person’s need to observe work rather than to complete tasks the organisation needs doing) rather than a structured internships. Both of these are incredibly useful experiences, and the kind of thing that many students and graduates organise for themselves rather than advertised opportunities.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        An internship frequently means a couple of months of full time work, doing significant tasks. If the internship is unpaid, it legally should be an educational opportunity, so not taking over duties normally done by an employee, although this is often ignored.

        So substantially more than shadowing an employee for a week or two – that’s the kind of thing I’d expect high school students to be looking for. The undergrad students are looking for something that makes them more appealing to employers when they graduate and are looking for work.

        2. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          In one of my internships I designed a part that’s installed on a few thousand commercial airliners.

      2. londonedit*

        We do have longer and more involved ‘internships’ in UK publishing nowadays, but that’s a fairly recent thing. Historically in publishing it’s been much more along the lines of what bamcheeks describes – short ‘work experience’ stints of maybe two to four weeks, which is much more of a work shadowing sort of thing. You go and work in a publishing company for a couple of weeks and you get a general sense of how things work, you might get to sit in on some meetings, you might get to look over some cover copy or do some picture research, that sort of thing. Often work experience is encouraged or required by things like MA Publishing courses, but it’s not tied to the course itself and there’s no legal requirement for it to be ‘educational’. Most publishers will want people to have done a couple of short work experience stints if they’re applying for an entry-level job, but there’s no need to have done a formal internship.

        An actual internship would be more like a few months, and you would get more stuck in with the work involved.

    4. MsM*

      In my MBA program, we were advised that you could reach out to organizations that didn’t have formal internship programs, but you needed to be prepared to do what OP’s looking for: give them a specific pitch of your skills and the type of projects you were looking for, and if it didn’t suit their needs, then thank them for their consideration and move on. I don’t know whether these students are getting a crappy version of that advice or trying to figure it out from first principles, but teaching them “I’ll do anything” isn’t as helpful as they think it is will honestly serve them well.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        Given that the loose pitches are from undergrads, I bet that they’ve been told they should do an internship but their program doesn’t give them much instruction on how to find one. That was the case with my bachelors program, and I did have one internship phone screen where I gave a similar “oh anything works” answer. (Yes I cringe about it now)

    5. GreenApplePie*

      Is it even the norm for internships to offer info on the hours/work to applicants? When I was an undergrad this was info I had to tease out of people during interviews, not something included in the internship listing.

    6. me*

      +1 to this

      If you don’t have a formal internship program, do you have a need for termporary summer employees/part time employees during the school year who could:
      * take on some of the “when we get around to it” projects, like scanning old files;
      * do some legwork on projects;
      * help cover the phones;
      * do basic filing / clerical work;
      * observe meetings; and
      * shadow professionals in the field?

      You may not be able to frame it as a proper “internship,” but it could offer a basic level of exposure to your field to someone who is deciding whether this is a career path for them, while giving them general work experience and a paycheck.

      1. LW2*

        We’re so highly unionized that I don’t think I could give them any tasks that employees normally do, or that would normally fall under other employee’s job classifications, because it would be an unpaid internship.

  4. nnn*

    What’s weird about #1 is the complaining co-workers specifically said it’s her face when she comes in. Not her face in general – they see her facial expression modulates throughout the day.

    It’s so bizarre that they arrived at complaining to management rather than just “Yeah, she has RBF first thing in the morning, that’s just the way she is.”

    1. Not Australian*

      I read somewhere recently that women with families have usually done a full day’s work at home even before they get to their place of employment. Admittedly OP doesn’t mention their family status, but I’d say that a very high proportion of the women I’ve worked with over the years – and me included – tended to arrive at work every day still going through a mental checklist to make sure they haven’t forgotten anything important they were supposed to have done before they left home. IMHO we should all be giving each other a great deal more leeway about this sort of stuff: we never know what our friends and colleagues are dealing with, be it great or small, and policing our facial expressions is really just adding to their burdens.

      1. Not Australian*

        I mean, this is getting dangerously close to “You know, you’d be a lot more attractive if only you *smiled*” territory…

        1. S M G*

          Those two situations are basically fraternal twins: they’re not identical, but their basic DNA is the same.

      2. Wanderer*

        I don’t even think it’s a gendered issue.
        I’m a dad and on the days I Bring the wee one to kindergarten I feel Like I need a break after I got to work.
        A female coworker of mine hast no kids but a very ill mother and it’s obvious to us when her condition flares up again.
        So, yeah, as Not Australian said: We should cut each some slack while we put our work face on.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          The point is that people are more likely to notice and complain about it if it’s a woman who has already done a ton of work before arriving than if it’s a man. You might very well need that break, but the likelihood of someone going to your boss and saying “We don’t like Wanderer’s face when he gets here” is far less likely than them saying that about a woman.

          1. Ugh*

            Exactly – women: what’s her problem?! Men: Wow he must be busy / have a lot on his mind, poor guy.

        2. Yorick*

          It’s extremely gendered. A man would have to be outwardly hostile for someone to complain that he’s not friendly enough in the morning.

          1. Momma Bear*

            I like that – “put your work face on.” People are stressed and tired first thing. As long as there’s nothing bad going on (no one yelling or something) why does it matter?

            I do agree that women are more likely to get flak for being sad/tired than men, though. It’s like getting comments when she doesn’t wear makeup. And what in the world calling a coworker (or employee) “bitchy”?

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Yeah, if that’s literally the word the supervisor used I would take it to HR or skip-level management. Using a sexist and derogatory word shows enough terrible judgement in addition to the unreasonable request that I’d escalate.

              If the supervisor is just passing on the word coworkers used, HR needs to have a conversation with the supervisor about respectful/non-sexist language *and* the supervisor needs to have the same conversation with the coworkers.

      3. DJ Abbott*

        OP1s coworkers are putting their emotional needs on her instead of managing them themselves. They have an expectation that the people around them will be what they want at all times, which is selfish and superior – they think they can order the people around them to be any way they want at any time. It’s the last word in self-centeredness.
        I have an issue with this, having grown up with abusive parents in abusive culture where everyone was putting their needs and expectations on me, but no one cared what I needed. People who do this are trying to get their emotional needs met by everyone around them. Like Not Australian says, we all need to give each other some grace.

        1. S M G*

          The amount of shit that could be going on in a person’s life to cause a bummer-face could fill a library. I can’t believe in this alternate reality, dystopian timeline we’re in right now people would be policing someone’s facial expressions.

          And the fact that “bitch” was thrown into the mix is such an awful red flag, I urge OP1 to consult the EEOC or an employment attorney before going upward. Even if they don’t move forward, a free consultation or a hypothetical question could give them an understanding of exactly how bad this is.

          Great. Now I’m gonna have bitch face for the rest of the day thinking about it.

    2. KaboomCheese*

      Right? If I had a coworker who looks mopey or grumpy in the morning, I’d just assume they are not a morning person and need a bit to “warm up”. They would have to be really unpleasant to make me go to their manager for that.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Or that their brain is already in job mode and they are thinking about the pile of work they have waiting for them, or the first meeting they have to be in. It’s a matter of interpretation whether that’s RBF or focused professional face.

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        I mostly agree, with the caveat that if a coworker is actually coming across as grumpy at work, I don’t see why their coworkers should have to deal with that. I don’t want to feel like I have to tiptoe around a grumpy coworker, and I say that as someone who needs several cups of coffee in the morning before I feel like myself. But that doesn’t seem like what the OP is describing. It seems like a situation where she maybe has RBF, and the coworkers are projecting on to her. They certainly should not expect her to be cheerful in the morning or to put on a show of being happy to be awake and at work. As long as she’s not making the coworkers avoid her in the morning, it’s fine.

        1. Saturday*

          Agree – I’m not going to go to anyone’s manager about it, but I don’t think I should have to wait for someone to warm up in the mornings (it’s 8:45… have I given them enough time?). People should look reasonably approachable at work.

          1. Zona the Great*

            Ugh. Just approach them. This is a job. I really have to look approachable for you? What does that look like? What does it look like for a person of color? A female person of color? A trans person? What does it look like for you to feel comfortable approaching a professional person you work with? I hate this.

            1. Momma Bear*

              This. Sometimes I’m dragging in the AM but that doesn’t mean I won’t be professional if someone stops by my office. And/or that’s what Teams is for.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              Exactly. I *am* approachable and friendly. I go out of my way to help others and answer their questions regardless of the time of day, my energy level or my emotions. I don’t snap at coworkers regardless of my level of irritation and no one needs to wait until I “warm up” in the morning (though if I’m the one scheduling the meeting, it will start after 9am).

              My *face* shouldn’t have to be constantly approachable and friendly while I’m busy or doing tasks that require my entire concentration. I shouldn’t have to wear my Customer Service Face at all times just in case a coworker wants to talk to me.

        2. April*

          Top 2 complainers rarely ever smile, have horrible attitudes most of the time, find the absolute pettiest reasons to complain about others….. It’s like being back in high school again, honestly. Throw in the fact that staff range in age from 36 – 68, & it makes it feel beyond ridiculous.

      3. JustaTech*

        There was a professor at my college who was *not* a morning person.
        But you only learned this if you did summer research and therefore were around his office space in the morning before he’d had coffee. (And you were warned by the other professors to not stand between Prof H and the coffee pot.)
        When he was teaching he was still stern and serious and very slightly scary in the way of some really smart science professors, but he wasn’t *grumpy*.

        So yes, some people need a few minutes and a cup of coffee to get their “work face” on.

    3. Rebecca*

      I am already not a super chipper person, and have definitely been accused of RBF when I’m not paying attention. I worked in one place where I had to leave at dark o’clock in the morning and had a stressful drive to work, so between the car and getting myself settled, I’m sure I looked a little disgruntled. People either took it personally or got really concerned about how tired I looked. This is just my face!

      One of the best things my mother taught me when I was a self-conscious teen was that, by and large, most people don’t care enough about you to do anything AT you. Didn’t say good morning as they passed you? Probably didn’t see you. Didn’t respond immediately when you said something? Assume they didn’t hear you. Got left off a list or email or something? Assume an error rather than malice. Everybody’s busy and in their own heads a lot and their facial expressions rarely have anything to do with you unless you’re actively in a conversation or engagement with them.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I have a friend with social anxiety, and she’ll often apologize for or try to clarify something she said two days ago that I’ve completely forgotten but she’s been worrying over. I have to remind her that I don’t remember because I’m really a self-centered person who spends most of my time thinking about myself.

    4. JSPA*

      If it’s something that changes once you’re upright and seated for a while– not that the LW SHOULD have to change anything–my mom dealt with “allergy-related puffy morning face that looked like she’d been angry-crying” by wearing large, “glamorous” sunglasses in the morning, from late spring well into summer. She liked that it made casual interactions much smoother.

      She had deep natural frown lines and smile lines, but the smile lines didn’t show when her face was puffy, and the frown lines were accentuated. She legit did look oddly sad and scowly until her facial sinuses had been draining for an hour or two, the actifed had kicked in, and her eyes had un-puffed.

      So while nobody needs to feel obliged to hide their natural face, I feel obliged to mention that glam, large cheap sunglasses for your commute can very effectively reset how people read your face (and your eyes will likely be more comfortable if you’re not squinting due to low morning sun during the commute).

      1. RC*

        At some points in my life I’ve contemplated acquiring some large glam sunglasses. Every time I’ve been told “we can’t make them in that shape with your prescription.” Alas, because this seems like an interesting idea (although not sure how well it would go over inside an office if they’re already policing faces).

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, I ordered a pair of large glam prescription sunglasses and they were literally 1/3 inch thick at the bottom edge. The eyeglasses shop actually apologized for letting me order them in the first place and offered to replace them at no charge.

        2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          Have you looked into fitover sunglasses? They do what it sounds like they do. (For the longest time I had no idea what the proper keyword for that kind of sunglasses was, but I had a vague idea that they existed.)

    5. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I’d be super tempted to ask the boss to demonstrate what she considers an appropriate way to enter the workplace at the beginning of the day. And then pretend to be confused and ask her to do it again, and basically make her keep miming obnoxious fake cheer until somebody starts giggling.

  5. Jackalope*

    LW #2: Alison said something similar to this, but if you’re getting a lot of undergrad contacts I would recommend writing up an FAQ of some of the things you’d need in order to do this for them and what kind of intern opportunities might be available at their level. That way you can send them the list whenever you hear something from someone new without recreating the wheel each time.

    I will also mention that when I did my undergrad internship I got basically no help from my dept on what I needed to do or any requirements. I suggested a possible place to work to my advisor who vetoed it because it was a bit out of scope, and recommended someplace else that was similar. That was it. I did all of the contacting them, discussing what I could do for the internship, figuring out a possible project (suggested by a friend who worked there and had a need she thought I could meet), and then carrying it out. But although I’m sure I needed some sort of documentation that I did something, I don’t remember being given a specific number of hours, a specific type of project, or any help reaching out to the place I volunteered or even regular check ins. To be honest, I don’t think I really even knew what an internship was or why this was a part of my education; if I had the chance to go back I would do things much differently and probably get a lot more out of it. But this was before the internet was a real resource so I didn’t even have a place to look anything up.

    All that to say that if the under grads coming to you are less prepared than the grad students, there may well be a good reason for it. I know that I didn’t know what I didn’t know, and some of the questions you wanted answers to in your letter are things I wouldn’t have realized I needed, but would have been happy to obtain if requested.

    1. Gingerblue*

      This is really good advice. Undergrads just don’t have the context to know what info to provide without very clear guidelines, and a lot of them will have very little experience getting to propose their own framework instead of being handed a list of requirements.

      A few additional things:

      – I used to teach undergrads, and a lot of them are painfully polite. Many will also be aware that this is a big thing they’re asking for, especially when you say that you don’t have an established program and would have to create an internship specially for them. Even if they have an idea of what they need/want, they can hesitate to ask for it. (And frankly, many are used to schools/adults in general that treat requests with suspicion; some of them will be bracing to be told they’re entitled or stupid if they ask for too much or the wrong thing.)

      – If you think of this like asking a candidate for their desired salary, there’s some of the same anxiety about asking for what they want. They’ll be wondering if there would have been an opportunity for them if they asked for more hours, or less, or mentioned the right sort of project, or said they could start earlier, etc. If you can be clear when you ask for info about what you can accommodate, you might get better answers.

      – Students from more privileged backgrounds are more likely to have an idea of how internships work and what to ask for than students from less privileged backgrounds. The more initiative you want from potential interns, the more you’re going to wind up screening out, for example, first generation college students who might do great as interns but have fewer models for how to get an internship.

      1. LW2*

        – Students from more privileged backgrounds are more likely to have an idea of how internships work and what to ask for than students from less privileged backgrounds. The more initiative you want from potential interns, the more you’re going to wind up screening out, for example, first generation college students who might do great as interns but have fewer models for how to get an internship.

        This is my fear. Though I will say that in my area, it’s unlikely that we’ll get anyone from any particularly privileged background. But I’m also wary of putting someone who’s afraid of showing initiative (even for valid reasons) into a structure-less program under a manager who’s likely going to be unable to find time to provide structure or direction.

        1. Yoli*

          Can you build this into your structure? For example, you tell interns they have X weeks to get the lay of the land and identify an initiative/project/area of focus, which they then present to the manager in Week Y. On the back end, when you recruit managers you name up front that the biggest commitment is the need to set aside Z hours in Week Y for the project proposal, and then offer some bare minimum guidance for follow-up (e.g., 30 min check-in every other week). After the first round you’ll have examples of successful projects that can be included in the application form.

          1. Emmy Noether*

            I think the chances of an undergrad coming up on their own with a initiative/project/area of focus that is useful to the company is fairly close to zero. They don’t have the experience or high-level view to do that. Most fully employed individual contributors don’t even think up all their own work projects – certainly not within their first few weeks, if ever.

            The level of initiative you should expect from an undergrad intern is being able to tell them (for example) to research a topic and have them find sources and write a report without handholding, or tell them to track some metric and have them come up with an Excel sheet on their own. Do not let them pick their own topic.

            1. nnn*

              Building on this, if it is in fact reasonable in your specific context for interns to be coming up with their own projects, it would be helpful to give them a few examples of projects other interns in their situation have done.

              This would help them calibrate things like what’s reasonable scope, what’s within their jurisdiction, the threshold between laudable initiative and presumptuous overstepping, etc.

              1. LW2*

                I don’t really need them to come up with their own project. We’re just a 500-person agency with 15 different teams doing similar but distinct things, and getting any of those 15 managers to agree to take on an intern would require more information or sense of what’s needed to supervise them than “anything would be fine.” Otherwise I feel like I’m asking, “Would you be willing to have a house guest? I don’t know if they have dietary restrictions or pet allergies, or how long they’re staying, or what they want to do while they’re here.”

                1. Smithy*

                  In an FAQ, would it be possible to provide some of the guidelines and restrictions that the Masters Students follow? Essentially – “when Masters students apply, we expect they’ll provide XYZ in the hopes of meeting ABC requirements. As we do not have a formal internship program, if you’re able to submit a similar summary, we’ll be better able to share if there is an internship opportunity or not”.

                  Basically just copy the model used by the masters students as that’s most likely what the Directors who would be managing interns are used to, and also will allow undergrads to prescreen if that’s beyond where they are professionally. Some undergrads by their junior year are already taking a class or two that include grad students – so for some, that approach to work won’t be so alien. And those are likely the undergrads best suited.

                  Your internship opportunities sound like they’re better suited for someone who’s a bit more prepared to be specialized, so I don’t think looking for them to mirror grad students is wrong and will allow you to borrow a structure that already exists.

                2. LW2*

                  Smithy, no, the grad students can actually do most of the work that our other employees do, just in a much more highly supervised way. The grad student internships are most like early stages of apprenticeship, in a way and there are lots of legal requirements and legal/academic structures in place for them.

                  Undergrads wouldn’t be able to do that work (legally, I mean, not just in terms of skill set or maturity).

                3. Insulindian Phasmid*

                  Does this company….actually want to take on interns? I feel like maybe it’s okay to say “We don’t have the structure in place to do internships” and leave it at that. You sound like you have genuine reasons why taking on interns would be a big issue and disrupt your work.

                4. LW2*

                  Does this company….actually want to take on interns?

                  I think we want to do all sorts of things in theory, and I end up getting pressure from various sources to try to make those things work in reality, but no actual material support that would make those things succeed. I wrote in to figure out how much of the problem with this one I could/should solve on my own, but the answer and discussion are making me realize I probably can’t actually make this work on a regular basis.

                5. Nightengale*

                  It sounds like maybe the most you could current take on with undergrads right now is a minimal shadowing program – maybe several departments that could offer a day a month of shadowing several providers within that department.

                  It isn’t going to work if they truly need internship hours for a class, or a paid summer job. But even just 1-2 shadowing days can be really really helpful figuring things out in health care. I still remember lessons learned in early shadowing experiences of a day here and there – which were 20+ years ago, before my formal medical training and over a decade of practice.

            2. bamcheeks*

              Yeah, “come up with a project” is exactly how you get a letter from an undergraduate cheerfully offering to create a marketing plan for your £500m turnover business.

              1. Rogue Slime Mold*

                There’s some job advice that goes “Find a problem the company has and sell them yourself as the solution to it” and in almost all cases, someone outside the company is not in a position to know what those problems are, what resources the company has, the exact regulatory framework, etc.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  And your solution must not step on any toes with internal politics.
                  And your solution must not overlap any existing initiatives or solutions already in motion.
                  And your solution must not impact any “features” that might look like bugs.
                  And your solution must be cheaper than its alternatives.
                  And your solution must have the optics of expediency.
                  And your solution must be devoid of threat to the hiring manager, hiring committee, and everyone who must sign off on the hire or can veto it.

                  The advice is just a pipe dream, a wild goose chase to keep the advisees busy. Gumption by an alias…

                2. Allonge*

                  Not just job advice – I see this as a task given to undergrad students as part of a curriculum, in addition to an internship. It’s pretty out there!

        2. AcademiaNut*

          To be honest, I would strongly recommend not taking interns if you’re expecting them to come into a structureless program and find their own things to do with minimal supervision. It’s going to be frustrating for the intern, frustrating for anyone who is managing them, and more likely to drive someone away from a field than encourage them in it. And that’s not including the students who have gumption and confidence but not much sense and can cause a lot of problems if let run amok.

          If an intern has the ability to show up at an employer and run their own project, they’re not really an intern at that point, they’re functioning more like a non-entry level employee. You might get this behaviour from, say, a mature student who has work experience and is training in a new field, but not generally from a random undergrad, even a talented and hard working one.

          1. Rogue Slime Mold*

            I wonder if OP could come up with a set of background tasks that always need doing (like scanning records) to propose? Would it be useful to the organization to develop a structured undergraduate intern program, where both the supervisors and the students would have a clear picture like “This is a 1 month position, and students will update records and observe physical therapy.”

            One thing becoming clear in the comments is that someone somewhere needs to provide the structure to this–the students don’t know enough to do it on their own, and it sounds like OP’s employees don’t have the time to structure one on their own.

          2. Rock Prof*

            This is what I was thinking. It really doesn’t sound like a good setup for anyone involved for undergraduate internships.
            But if you really do want to keep doing these ad hoc internships and since you did say that undergrad internships have been created before, could you and/or the managers who worked with them just pool your resources about those and at least create a shell of what kind of program/structure has typically been done? Maybe you could figure out which other people have worked well with undergrads and be more likely to ask just them or, at the very least, have them create some documentation on how to make it successful?

        3. EventPlannerGal*

          I appreciate that you want to encourage students into your field, but I’m not sure if it sounds like you have the organisational capacity to do that through the medium of internships for undergrads. Providing structure and direction is pretty fundamental, and if your colleagues can’t do that then that’s not going to create the kind of positive experience you want for the students. Are there any other programmes or outreach activities you could encourage these students towards?

        4. SLPeep*

          I manage allied health professionals (think SLP, PT, OT etc) and also get this weird mix of graduate interns (fixed schedule, requirements for placement hours, supervision needs etc) and requests from undergrads who are typically trying to improve their chances of getting into one of the grad programs. It has been helpful to really try to figure out what our usual capacity for them is, and what the situation would look like. I now know that what we can typically offer is 1 day/week, with a mix of about 2-3 hours of observing clients with the health professional (taking notes, getting materials as needed, set up and clean up, mostly) and another 4-ish hours of supporting admin work – often preparing handouts, laminating things, sanitizing shared therapy materials, organizing files etc. It’s the second part that is usually harder to get a staff member to take the lead on finding work for, so when possible I have a running list of things to suggest we give them to do. Often they are more efficient than I expect and I do have to think about what else would be helpful.

          If they want less time, like a half day, that’s easy. If they need more time, the answer has to be no, I just don’t have staff with the time to find work for them for more time than that (I might make an exception for something really short term, like a 4 week internship that wants more full time hours, but even then, depends on the staff I have available). So I don’t have a program, but I do know roughly what is/isn’t in the scope of what I can realistically offer, so when someone reaches out I can let them know what might be available, and if that meets their needs, I can reach out to my staff and see if we have the capacity to make that work. We’re small, so I basically never take more than one of those at a time, and usually only when I don’t have grad students, but obviously that’s pretty contextual.

          Just thought I’d give you an idea how I handle this in a healthcare-ish context. undergrads reaching out to me for internships tend to be looking more for “exposure to the field” aimed at figuring out whether they want to go to grad school and getting in to grad school, which is a bit different than the purpose of undergrad internships in some other fields, I think. Obviously your context may be different.

          1. bamcheeks*

            Ahh, I’ve done this from the other side (advising aspiring AHPs, usually undergraduates in sports / psychology / linguistics who want to apply for pre-registration professional MScs), and I started to say exactly the same thing!

            IME, the best applicants are usually people who have a few weeks or months of experience of volunteering or working with their target client group (often care-work or volunteering) in some kind of care setting, plus “micro-experience” of a day or two shadowing a healthcare professional. That means they have one space where they can figure out if they actually like being in that particular setting, and to start learning relevant skills like how to communicate with people who are cognitively impaired or how to support people with mobility difficulties. Then they get so much out of the actual work shadowing, because they focus on the specific tasks and role of the healthcare professional rather than being blown away because this is their first time in a hospital or whatever.

            So LW, I don’t know exactly what your field is and whether there are any equivalents, but I wouldn’t feel bad about only offering very short work shadowing opportunities, but also telling people what other experience can help them. “We can offer up to two days of work shadowing between X and Y, and we prefer candidates who already have some volunteering or work experience with Z group” is really helpful and actionable information.

            1. LW2*

              Thank you both! This is really helpful. It would never have occurred to me that an “internship” could be so short! I was assuming I would need to come up with months of projects for them!

        5. sb51*

          There’s a big difference between “incapable of showing initiative” and “has been told over and over that if you want a job, look infinitely flexible and eager but set NO bounds on the potential employer, THEY set the bounds” by their experience from teachers and the kinds of retail/food service jobs they might have had in the past.

          Also, at this ability level you’re going to have to give some structure, both to the interns and the managers. Maybe that means only part time internships to timebox when they can impact managers. Maybe that means more short, shadowing-y options where they don’t actually really do anything. Maybe on the flip sidethat means long, full-time ones where you come up with a specific project ahead of time that someone inexperienced can do, and find people who are okay with that project.

        6. Don't You Call Me Lady*

          Your company simply doesn’t have the ability/bandwidth/whatever to take this at the moment. It’s a good goal but you’re just not ready. My advice would be to table the undergraduate internship project entirely for now

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        And with regard to your last point, I also find that in general young people from upper middle class backgrounds are more likely to err on the side of too much “gumption” and people from working class backgrounds to err on the side of too little. There are all kinds of reasons for this, including education. For all kinds of reasons (prejudice from teachers expecting working class kids to be “difficult” so they are more likely to take suggestions from them as “cheek” but the same suggestion in a private school might be taken as “showing initiative” to parents being more likely to be in different kind of roles and thereby having different expectations as to what leads to success at work) working class kids are more likely to be taught not to be “entitled,” to “just do as you are told,” “the teacher knows best,” “it looks demanding if you come in with your own ideas” whereas middle class kids are more likely to be taught to “show initiative,” “you won’t get anywhere sitting around waiting for others to organise everything for you.”

    2. JSPA*

      Adding, I didn’t know that as an unpaid intern, there was any reason I could not just take vacation time, anytime. I’m sure many would-be paid interns are similarly hazy. So in asking for the dates, I’d also specify that you can accommodate “up to a week of absence for vacation, with at least three weeks advance notice” (or whatever the case is).

    3. Geranium Now*

      Also, be very clear about what undergrads are and aren’t allowed to do. It sounds like this is pretty heavily regulated, and it’s fair for candidates to understand there are limitations on what they can do. A million years ago when I was an undergraduate, I worked in a university office that helped other students find research/internship/workstudy type positions on campus. The number of students coming in believing they’d get to do surgery if they got placed at the med school was jaw-dropping (6 that I can think of without thinking too hard. 6. 6 college freshmen believed they’d get to do surgery on other actual human beings if they got an internship). And it wasn’t entirely over-confidence, it was a lot of misunderstanding how things work. Many of them had never even had a part time job before.

      2. Ana Gram*

        I hired cops for a long time and we’d get tons of college students asking if they could get hired right to detective. It seems obvious that the answer is no but they were young and had little to no job experience and really didn’t quite understand what being a detective actually was. Oh and the ones who were shocked they’d have to work weekends cracked me up. But they’re young and we gave them the info they needed and we all went on our way.

      3. Nightengale*

        Thinks back to medical school about what actual medical students did during surgery (hold things, maybe put in a few stiches, more likely cut the ends of stiches someone else was putting in)

        And what actual surgical interns did during surgery, most of which could not be considered “doing surgery” so much as maybe “do a few of the easier pieces of a surgery under the watchful eyes of a surgeon”

        Wow

  6. Computer-Man*

    #3 – in my experience, management often don’t see the need for extra IT staff if everything is working. Your manager should be using any available data to push for an extra resource, and in a good company it *will* happen, but he either needs to push harder or there’s extra crap up higher that makes it difficult.

    For what it’s worth, we just got bought by a global company and they replaced my same-level coworker with an MSP guy for less hours a week than my coworker worked *on paper* and haven’t even given us information on how to engage him (nor has he actually approached us with any information or responded to questions). All of this during our busiest time of year.

    So I mean… yeah, sometimes companies just suck and don’t see the big picture.

    1. Rogue Slime Mold*

      This seems like something that will status quo along until either a new broom comes in above and prioritizes staffing IT, or something blows up and the existing top people abruptly realize that “my computer is working fine” was not the gold standard of adequate IT staffing.

      So yeah, OP–a year is plenty of time. I suspect the bottlenecks are above your manager.

      1. ITSysAdmin_GER*

        I’m LW#3. You’re correct in that the bottleneck is above my manager, as I discovered after sending in my question to Alison.

        If me sending a detailed and accurate report on the poor status of our IT security due to lack of people to plan and implement necessary security measures directly to the CEO and copying my union rep counts as “something blow[ing] up”, then something has blown up. The fallout is happening as we speak, I will have an update for Alison and the readership once the dust has settled.

        P.S. Don’t worry about me, I’m not in the USA but in a country with strong employment law and comparatively strong union. Plus I work in a field where I can line of countless new jobs before my notice period is up.

        2. Festively Dressed Earl*

          Out of curiosity, how is your relationship with your new manager? Is it possible to just ask him how long he estimates it’s realistically going to take to fix this clusterfudge? Or for that matter, whether he honestly thinks it can be fixed at all?

          1. ITSysAdmin_GER*

            I have a very solid and honest relationship with him. This is excellent advice, which I will take. Thank you!

    2. JustaTech*

      In my experience management doesn’t see the need for *any* IT staff until something fails catastrophically.
      My company periodically tries to just have virtual IT help, which obviously doesn’t work when you have 1, connection issues or 2, hardware issues. Which we have frequently because of having a lot of specialty scientific instruments.

      They had to fire our last part-time on-site IT person because they were harassing the staff (and were staggeringly incompetent, and should have been let go for that long before they started harassing people). So now every couple of weeks someone is *flown in* to do all our on-site fixes, and if it’s broken when they’re not here, well tough.

  7. Undergrads*

    LW 2, we do exactly what Allison says. We have an OpenForm for the intern to fill out. Doing so in he correct manner is their first “test.” It asks their major, goals for internship, availability, hours needed, if it’s for a class or not (if so, what is the class and requirements), why they are interested in interning with us, what their strengths are, how they would get to the internship, etc.

    I get a ton of “cold emails” from students in my field, they are pretty clueless so you have to guide them.

    1. Elsa*

      Yes, I read letter #2 and immediately thought that creating a structured application form with all the information you want would save everyone a lot of time and frustration.

      1. Mutually Supportive*

        It also requires them to put in a little targeted effort, which is no bad thing (as long as it’s not TOO onerous)

        On various occasions I’ve had people ask if I can find work experience or internship etc for their child /niece / random junior acquaintance. I always say “ask them to drop me an email themselves” and give my email address.

        That’s it – an email, from the interested person. Doesn’t need to be anything fancy.

        They never do – and that’s fine! But I’m glad that I haven’t spent the energy working out what we can offer when the junior themselves isn’t actually interested!

    2. Bumblebee*

      The form is a great idea!

      Also, I know that Career Services offices get a bad rap around here, but as one of your local Student Affairs practitioners, I would also recommend sharing this information with any undergraduate institutions that are feeding to your site. It never hurts to build those relationships, and the professionals in that office may be able to clarify internship requirements for both you and their students. I know that at at least a couple of the places I’ve worked, there’s been an undergraduate internship “class” that students have to register for, and it comes with requirements. Other programs have time requirements (our Human Services degree requires 400 hours before graduation, for example).

      1. LW2*

        That’s a good idea, but it mostly seems to be students home on break or doing various online programs. There’s not any particular school or schools as far as I can tell. We have been trying to partner with the one local school to create more direct pipelines and not getting much response. (They’re having enormous budget issues so I don’t think it’s personal.)

  8. Brad Deltan*

    LW3: as someone who has worked in high tech fields for thirty years? THREE MONTHS is too long to wait. Any company that lets its admin & operations departments suffer from understaffing longer than that is a company that doesn’t value such things and never will. It’s a management thing: lots of high level managers see admin/ops as nothing more than a cost center. Something to be minimized at all times in favor of having more of X employees who “make the money.” Three months is all you need to know they don’t value your work and never will. Six months might be generous if they’re a company that’s growing so fast they’re tripping over their own feet (another big warning sign, frankly). The fact that you’ve been there 1.5 years breaks my heart. Update your resume and start job hunting; you need to get out ASAP.

    1. Antilles*

      I work in a slower moving field where projects can easily last years or a decade, but even in this sort of field, a year is way too long for them to still be in the preliminary approval stage. A few months? Normal. Half a year? On the slow side, but reasonable if there’s a budgetary quirk or lengthy approval process.
      But still being at the very start of the process a year into it is a pretty clear sign that help isn’t coming and it’s not a priority. Especially since it doesn’t seem like OP is seeing things improve in other ways – even if there was some ironclad reason it took time to get budget approved for a new position, there’s plenty of other things they could be doing in the meantime to help OP out (e.g., reducing extra tasks, refocusing your workload).

    2. Great Frogs of Literature*

      I would say that three months is indicative that staffing on your team is not a top priority for everyone in the chain, from recruitment to whatever higher-ups need to sign off (or that this role is at least moderately challenging to fill — it looks like I spent two months interviewing candidates the last time I hired, and that was my primary focus and we didn’t have a bunch of higher-up stakeholders who wanted to talk to candidates but were difficult to schedule). But a lot of companies have spots where they’re slow, and “we only have two recruiters but ought to have at least five,” or “the CTO insists on approving all role requisitions personally but doesn’t get through them very quickly” is, to my mind, a normal sort of bottleneck to have.

      All of which to say, I think three months means that this hiring is not The Absolute Most Important Thing for Everyone Involved, but not necessarily an unreasonable timeline. On the other hand, 1.5 years is a VERY long time for most companies, and says to me that there is no sense of urgency. It’s possible that the new boss could still turn things around, but I suspect that, as others have said elsewhere, somebody in the process for approving this role thinks that IT is working just fine and why do you need more people anyway?

      1. ITSysAdmin_GER*

        I’m LW#3. You’re correct in that the bottleneck is above my manager, as I discovered after sending in my question to Alison.

        If me sending a detailed and accurate report on the poor status of our IT security due to lack of people to plan and implement necessary security measures directly to the CEO and copying my union rep counts as “something blow[ing] up”, then something has blown up. The fallout is happening as we speak, I will have an update for Alison and the readership once the dust has settled.

        P.S. Don’t worry about me, I’m not in the USA but in a country with strong employment law and comparatively strong unions. Plus I work in a field where I can line of countless new jobs before my notice period is up. IT experts are in high demand in my country.

  9. BellStell*

    #1 The advice given is perfect here. Read the linked letter too. I was told this by my former boss once as ‘sometimes your face is just really bad and mean’ at which point I said that was not good feedback to say to a woman and it is me thinking and also if my missing stair colleague would have done any actual work maybe I would not have been so critical all the time. Do what the advice says and see if things can change in a few weeks.

    1. Amy Purralta*

      My partner once worked at a sub set of a Supermarkets HQ. His manager was known to be a bit of a d@&!, deciding he didn’t like you put you on PIP, getting rid, then moving on to the next person. He told one of the employees that they didn’t smile enough.
      As others have said I think OP1 is just not a morning person, but not rude. Personally I think the Manager should have spoken to the person that brought OPs face to their attention and not OP.

  10. Eryn*

    #1 Oh no, I’d be so tempted to come in the next morning, smiling like I was a Batman villain. Every morning, I’d have to fight the urge to plaster on an absolutely unhinged smile. Literally unhinged, like I was about to swallow an egg whole. What a bunch of jerks.

    2. ReallyBadPerson*

      My daughter has just such a smile (it’s more like a rictus) for people who tell her she’d look prettier if she smiled. It’s super creepy looking, and I am there for it!

      3. JustaTech*

        I have a friend who does this (thankfully rarely) when people give her a hard time about how much she smiles (or the way she dresses) as an engineer.

        It’s terrifying as a bystander, I can’t imagine what it’s like to be on the receiving end.

    3. Madame Desmortes*

      Murderbot TV show fans are nodding along with this very very hard after last week’s episode (of Sanctuary Moon).

    4. Lacey*

      Right? I was thinking the OP needs to buy a grinning halloween mask to wear in one morning.

      I realize this would only escalate the situation, but what is UP with those coworkers?!

    5. Flying Fish*

      I was thinking a giant smiley face on a stick held up like a mask. Or co-workers faces? Hrm…

      1. RVA Cat*

        Need to find the neck gaiter I ordered during early Covid that had a Cheshire Cat smile with “we’re all mad here!”

    6. TQB*

      RIGHT??? This is ripe for malicious compliance.

      There’s so much crap that workplaces chalk up to “oh that’s just how so-and-so is” and yet this kind of commentary continues to be passed along. Jerks. All of them. I feel terrible for OP.

      And not for nothing but what do you think my face is going to look like in the morning now that i know everyone hates my normal face? Do you think that will make me happy? DO YOU THINK SO, CAROL??

      1. I Have RBF*

        Seriously.

        Why TF do people think that someone’s face must be pleasing to them at all times? Where the F do they get off demanding that someone perform “happy, smiling coworker” for them all the time?

        This is why I prefer remote work. No one expects me to be grinning like a vacuous idiot all day.

        Sorry folks, when I’m thinking or distracted, I’m not setting my face to please you!

      2. April*

        Knowing they’ve said this about me hasn’t helped my self esteem any, that’s for sure (never really been the best, actually). Which my supervisor is well aware of. So I’ve been trying to figure out the actual reason she even brought it up to begin with. The reason she gave me was weak – that she told them she’d say something to me about it. Unless I were to tell them personally that she brought it up, they would never really know if she had or not. The whole thing is confusing & frustrating as hell.

  11. Daria grace*

    #2, while it’s no doubt frustrating to get vague requests from undergrads, I wouldn’t take it as a red flag. They probably think they are being accomodating and considerate in their initial approach by indicating willingness to accomodate the organisation’s needs. They are likely unaware of what specific information a company needs to assess an initial internship proposal. If they are still vague after being asked specific questions then that would be an issue.

    Could you put details of what you need to know from prospective interns on your website to cut back on initial vague communications?

  12. Daria grace*

    #3, a year really does seem too long, especially given from what I understand there’s a LOT of IT people looking for jobs lately so finding good candidates shouldn’t be that hard unless what you’re doing is hyper specialised

    1. ITSysAdmin_GER*

      I’m LW#3. I’m in Germany and we haven’t had the massive wave of layoffs that has affected the tech industry in the US. IT experts are in high demand.

  13. KeinName*

    There are people who manage to convey anger, resentment or unapproachability without saying/doing anything. But I very much think OP would know if she were in such a frame of mind entering her office. So if she interrogates herself and can confirm she isn’t regularly in a bad mood when coming to the office, she should go back to her boss and ask for actions the boss thinks she can take in this situation (and „this situation“ is: „my colleagues complain about a thing I am very much not doing“). Get advice help from the boss with creating a more friendly environment where people don’t feel the need to say such strange things.

  14. Career regulator*

    Thinking about my undergraduate internships (gulp, 30 years ago), I would have been hard pressed to say what I hoped to get out of them other than “improve my résume”. There was definitely an element of “find out if this is a career I would be interested in” but I am not sure if I could have articulated that at the time. But beyond that very high level, I didn’t really have goals.

    Which isn’t to say I didn’t contribute. It all sounds very 1990s now, but I did tons of filing, photocopying, typing and research in those pre-internet days.

    I would make a distinction between internships that are part of a particular programme/course and those that are a question of the student’s own initiative. With the latter, they are more likely to be enthusiastic but less likely to have clear ideas about hours etc. I went to a selective liberal arts college that was snooty about anything not purely academic. I certainly didn’t get any academic credit for my internships. Most of mine were in summers, but there was also one that was one day/week my senior year. It was directly related to my major, and in retrospect, I probably could have leveraged it better for my senior thesis, but that wouldn’t have occurred to me at the time.

    As an adult I have managed summer interns, and they have been a mixed bag. One of the benefits for an organisation can be to provide line manager experience to people looking for promotion to management levels, but lower stakes (for the individual and the organisation), and that can take some of the burden off. Because with the best will in the world, interns are going to take more hand-holding than experienced staff if you want to get useful work out of them. Which means that it’s important for the OP’s employees to think about the costs and benefits of offering internships to undergrads. (My current employer used to offer more, but budget cuts and stretch means that we have a lot fewer these days.)

    1. LW2*

      Yeah, I have trouble getting managers to agree to take on even graduate-level interns because they can’t spare the time to supervise them. It’s helping to read a lot of the comments and realize there is no way anyone would have the time to prioritize any of the work being suggested to make this happen in ways that would be useful for the intern for more than a couple days.

      1. Hazel*

        And this may also be an answer, since you seem really interesting in helping further your field: could you offer ‘open days’ or ‘take an undergrad to work’ days a few times a year? Spend the time on a small flock not one:one and flush out folks who are willing – might not be managers – could be frontline folks, especially if you have a template for the day: short orientation, job shadow, each present one slide about one thing they learned …

  15. Bilateralrope*

    #4

    I can’t think of any jobs for a company that come with an NDA before they tell a candidate anything about the position they are being considered for. So I would be curious enough to sign it just to find out more.

    Though I would be looking carefully over the NDA for things that interfere with:
    – getting legal advice from outside the company.
    – reporting the companies illegal activity. Especially when it comes to worker rights.
    – using this job on my resume for future job applications.

    If I found any, I’m not sure if they would be a deal breaker or something I’d ask about later.

    1. Ganymede II*

      Some very specific R&D fields might do that. Like, if the company doesn’t currently do Supernatural Space Llamas, hiring for a Supernatural Space Llama specialist is a big hint of their future plans, and they may want o have an element of surprise, or need to keep ideas close to their chests to avoid competitors getting ahead of them.
      Or, someone is aware that Supernatural Space llama is a controversial field, and they don’t want it advertised very far that they are working on that, at least until they have an actual product to sell.

    2. Grey Coder*

      I can think of lots of reasons why a company would want to control the information that they are recruiting for a particular position:

      Anything near the C-Suite could attract speculation which would affect the stock price

      A new initiative/business direction — “hmm, looks like Alpacas, Inc is recruiting for a cereal director, sounds like they are pivoting into the Camelid food space”

      Looking to replace someone who is not currently aware they are going to be replaced

      All of these are around recruitment, not what happens in the job itself. Not a red flag to me.

      1. Not that other person you didn't like*

        This… let’s say they were a publicly traded company looking for a new “government procurement / vendor management” or “global client relations” role… just the names of those roles might be actionable from a stock trading perspective. I’m FAR from the C-suite and for my current job, I had to sign an NDA at the point in my interview process where they needed to tell me the details of the projects I’d be managing. I wouldn’t call it a green flag, but it’s far from a red flag (and it might mean REALLY INTERSTING WORK – as it did for me, but hey I can’t tell you about it).

    3. JSPA*

      Yes, make sure it’s not retroactive too past time with them, on the off chance that they’re trying to shield themselves from something bad they did, that you witnessed some small corner of, and they’re worried that the other shoe may drop, and you’ll realize you should be talking to someone about it.

      Ditto any stray “noncompete” language (likely unenforceable but who knows, anymore.)

      But aside from those specific worries, most likely they’re putting out feelers to replace someone (someone touchy? high-visibility?) whom they don’t want to upset, if they can’t find a suitable replacement. Or they are (say) going AI in a way that will mean layoffs, and they want to be controlling the messaging. Etc.

      Thus the hush-hush.

    4. Trick or Treatment*

      My partner has had some of these “NDA before we tell you about the job” situations in pharmaceutical development. It’s typically because it’s something big for the company that’s early stages and thus still confidential, like the company pulling up a new plant in X region and looking for a site head.

      Obviously, looking through the NDA closely is very good advice, but more than likely it’s just boilerplate language to cover only the hiring process.

      If the LW4 is up for considering a new role at all, I’d probably sign it and hear them out. Very likely it will become clear why the NDA, and it’s not a commitment to the job to just sign it.

    5. TX_Trucker*

      NDAs are super common in my industry during the recruitment phase. Especially if we are recruiting to staff a potential new contract that we are bidding on, but don’t have yet. For example, my company sometimes does refrigerated transport, but it’s not our specialty. During Covid we were bidding on some vaccine transportation contracts and were recruiting managers with expertise in medical transport. All those “applicants” had to sign an NDA. And since we didn’t even have the contract yet, a formal job description or application didn’t exist yet.

    6. Amy*

      I just signed an NDA three weeks ago before an interview.

      It’s was a competitor of my (then) company and they were looking to bring in a person to create a new team in a new market.

      They provide some details about existing strategy and asked me to flesh out a plan. If it hadn’t worked out, I would have had some inside intel on a competitor and they were trying to prevent me from gaining a competitive advantage from the knowledge.

    7. LaminarFlow*

      I have signed many an NDA simply to discuss a role. It is a pretty common thing to do in tech when IP needs to be protected until patents are granted and/or product launch.

      I am currently creating a product, and I don’t discuss it with anyone outside of the few people who have signed the NDA my attorneys drafted.

      1. red sox are the best sox*

        yup, I signed an NDA to interview at a tech start up, I think its just common in some industries.

    8. Contracts Killer*

      As an attorney that drafts these kinds of NDAs, unless the NDA tries to prohibit the items below (thanks @Bilateralrope), I think it is very normal and not at all a red flag to have an NDA before discussing certain job opportunities:
      – getting legal advice from outside the company.
      – reporting the companies illegal activity. Especially when it comes to worker rights.
      – using this job on my resume for future job applications.

      I also agree with all the explanations in this thread about why an NDA would be necessary. Also, since you have consulted with this company before, part of the reason for the NDA could be so that you don’t reach out to your former contacts at the company to talk about the position. They may not want certain people in the company to know about it yet.

    9. Consultant of...*

      I’ve signed a number of these over the years so it wouldn’t be a red flag to me at all. I’ve even had a few where using them as a reference or being put on a resume wouldn’t be an option. Often consultants have their own legal entity so that impact can be somewhat mitigated, but it is something to think about/plan for.

      In line with everyone else – it is usually keeping a lid on the change – patents, startups, need to execute some big dollar move without extra scrutiny or speculation, government projects. In the case of no talking about it at all it was usually less about me being the super exciting and interesting brain, but more about the fact I had access to exciting and interesting things (or the perception I did) or that my involvement would indicate certain things.

    10. I Have RBF*

      I’ve had a couple. Mostly start-ups. Most times the NDA comes with the interview, so they can discuss issues that they are tackling without worry. Yes, I read them. Usually they boil down to “don’t discuss our business with other companies”.

  16. Ganymede II*

    LW1: before bringing this to upper management, consider that the useless feedback might have come from *them*. This would explain why your manager felt obligated to pass it on even if she thought it sounded stupid.

    1. April*

      Either way, it just doesn’t make any sense to me. She shouldn’t have said it to me regardless. It made me feel horrible about myself for days, as well as be a bit paranoid as to what other senseless things people (or she) might find to complain about.

      1. Ganymede II*

        Oh, it is absolutely a ridiculous comment. But reporting her for this to senior leadership when you are not sure if the comment originated there is not a safe move either.

  17. Jennifleur*

    In my experience (signing up to a couple of recruiting agencies for low level marketing roles) recruiters have about the same chance of using shady tactics as salespeople (stereotypical). They need to fill the role, and I think the one I used also got paid for the number of applicants they could provide. So they’d contact me if a job even vaguely hit like 3 keywords in my CV, hard sell it to me, and then I wouldn’t hear anything else unless I got through to interview. They also once or twice (that I saw) changed my CV to fit their template, but so ineptly that it changed what the information actually said (wrong dates, job tasks muddled between jobs etc).

    I also went through a rash of (about three lol) agencies posting vacancies online which weren’t real, so that when I rang up about them they could promise me other jobs if I added my job seeking details to their database. Uggggh.

    I have had one good experience, with a recruiter who cared so much about the quality of her candidates that we practised interview questions together. But she was on a recruitment team as part of a larger company, so I wonder if that made the difference between her and the agencies.

    1. Monkeying Around for Money*

      This is close to my experience with blue-collar recruiting as well.

      The big name company recruiters are spraying-and-praying anyone with a resume with one or two relevant positions on it, and offering either jobs with embarrassingly low wages or terrible schedules or both; or skipping the step about having relevant work experience, like pitching pure commission sales roles to welders. They are often extremely aggressive to the point of being annoying.

      For instance, I once got powerdialed (3-5 calls in a row) repeatedly during work hours by one until I left the shop floor to answer and tell him to never, ever contact me again. I ended up blocking his number. The position was a continental shift offering 10% less than I was already making!

      I’ve worked with one or two independent recruiters who were a joy to work with and had a relationship with the company and industry they were recruiting for, but at this point I have to be pretty unhappy to even accept calls and emails from mainline recruiters, because they all tend to be pushy and rude.

    2. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      I was contacted by a recruiter once. We did the phone interview, etc… We discussed my skillset, and I told him, I can do X and Y, but I know absolutely nothing about Z.

      So this idiot sends me on an interview, and after three sentences from the hiring manager, I realize the job is to do Z. I immediately interrupt him, and explain that the recruiter messed up, as I had told him I do not do Z. I apologize for wasting his time (even though it wasn’t my fault), but ask him to keep me in mind should he have any other openings that I am qualified for.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Back when I was job hunting I applied for what looked like an ad for a specific job at a specific company. I got a call back, and they were like “weeeelllll, before we talk about that job, let’s just get some information” and had me go through their whole temp agency application over the phone. There was never any actual job, it turned out; it was a bait job to get more people to sign up for the temp agency.

  18. username*

    #2, you’re getting a lot of advice to create an undergrad intern intake form – but why not go the whole hog and create a formal undergrad internship program? You could find out what the staff they’d be working with are willing to do (and they might be more willing if they know it’s a predictable, regular, structured program, so they can prepare and reuse materials), and model the program on that to increase your chances of finding hosts. You could also then advertise the program, which would help increase access for less privileged students, not only for students who don’t know what to ask for but even for students who didn’t know that they could ask. And your correspondence with the students would get much easier, becuase you could say that there are X slots available, fill in this application form, decisions will be made by date Y, I’m sorry to say that we had many great applications but yours was not selected; and you could still include text somewhere saying that you are willing to be flexible with the structure if schools have particular requirements.

    1. Aneurin*

      It doesn’t sound from the letter like OP2 has the capacity to do this, though:

      We are extremely understaffed, I have a hard time getting any managers to agree to even the very structured internships because of the amount of time the supervision and training would entail.

    2. LW2*

      I am already doing that for the graduate students and I still can’t get managers to agree to take them. Even if I had the time to set up the application process on my end, I have no authority to create actual positions for them. I have so many other projects that I need to save social capital for, because pretty much everything I do requires buy-in and change from people I have no authority over, so I am not willing to spend much of it on this. Especially since, as some comments have pointed out, the intern themself is likely to have a poor experience.

      I will follow Alison’s advice to get more info and see if anything shifts in useful ways, and think about whether we can maybe offer super-short job shadowing rather than what I think of as an internship.

      1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        I wonder if you could get more buy-in from the managers to accept interns if senior management made it a goal (as part of an initiative to support the future of the industry) and create an internship bonus managers could get.

  19. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    LW1: I once had similar anonymised feedback and to cut a long story short what was being objected to was actually that I wasn’t cordially greeting my colleagues on my way through the cube farm in the morning.

    In my case the solution was an audiology appointment and confirmation of two relevant hearing conditions (!) and a concerted effort on my part to perform greeting rituals. “I genuinely didn’t hear you” soothed colleagues who had thought I was deliberately ignoring them, and I then maintained cordial relations by touching base first thing.

    Effectively your work starts a few minutes earlier than you thought, as soon as you reach your coworkers. That mindset shift solved it for me.

    Do I think people should have to perform to fit in? Heck no: I’m spending my forties unmasking. But there are some social conventions it’s advantageous to observe.

  20. Luva*

    #5: there’s also a lot of logistics in hiring: collecting and doing a first review of resumes, contacting candidates and answering basic questions about the job, organizing and scheduling interviews, making sure the interviewers follow the law and the policies of the company, and that all adds up to a full-time job most places. I’ve worked at companies that had specialized recruiters for finding candidates for open roles, specialized recruiters for doing the logistics described above, and specialized recruiters for managing how jobs are posted and categorized. It’s a ton of work.

    1. londonedit*

      Yes; in my industry (book publishing) companies often use external recruitment agencies because it means they can outsource all the work you’ve described. There are specialist recruitment agencies for the publishing industry, and they’ll do the work of advertising the vacancy and assessing applications, and will then only pass on the details of candidates that they think will be suitable for the role. Rather than the internal team having to go through all the CVs and pick out suitable candidates to interview. Especially with entry-level jobs, applications can easily run into the hundreds, and the majority of those won’t be suitable at all. So it’s much easier for a company to outsource to a recruitment agency and then they’re just presented with a nice array of suitable candidates.

      As someone looking for a new job you can also sign up with the recruitment agencies and they’ll alert you to anything that might be suitable – I haven’t encountered the sort of ‘predatory’ recruiters that you hear about, it’s more that a candidate will either sign up with an agency if they’re looking for work, or an agency will do the work of advertising a vacancy and screening candidates.

  21. I'm Sorry, What*

    For OP 3: I completely get how this is frustrating from your side and why it’s not reflecting well on the undergrads. But I think if you were getting undergrads telling you, “I want an internship from X date to X date, to work X hours per week, to do X type of tasks and accomplish X,” we’d be getting a different letter about how all the undergrads are demanding and presumptuous.

    Add to that the fact that internships in many fields are extremely competitive, and I bet a lot of students feel like they need to demonstrate that they’ll do anything (and likely have even been told by their career center that they’ll be passed over if they don’t).

    Of course, a lot of undergrads probably don’t really know what they’re looking for or even what’s possible, and that’s a separate issue. But I imagine that as an undergrad, if I’d written to a company asking if they offer internships, I’d have been confused if it wasn’t a straightforward answer of “Yes we have internships, and this it how it works” or “No we don’t take interns.”

  22. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey EyebrowO*

    #1 If the OP’s “morning face” bothers the supervisor, then she should say so; similarly if it is higher management complaining.
    Otherwise, if it really is just coworkers, then the supervisor has the authority to tell them MYOB, to stop criticising the OP’s appearance – and then not mentioned anything to the OP.

    1. April*

      Exactly! She definitely shouldn’t have said anything to me about it, & I’m still trying to understand why she thought doing so was ok. Yes, I know some people have absolutely no couth, but I found it to be a bit much & uncalled for.

  23. Katrina*

    I loathe the term “resting bitch face.” For men, it’s just called their thinking face. I walk around with eyebrows furrowed, frowning, and staring blankly ahead a lot because I’m focused on something or other 99% of the time. I am NOT making mean faces at you. I am way too far in my head for that.

    OP1, if you notice that you DO tend to look like you’re upset or angry when you’re just deep in thought, I feel like in most cases, it’s okay to just casually say that. At least, that’s my approach if I ever notice I’m making someone uncomfortable or they ask if I’m okay out of nowhere: “Oh, I’m good. Just deep in thought. That’s my thinking face.”

    Good luck!

    1. Mentally Spicy*

      “Resting douche face” is absolutely a thing for men. Believe me, I know. I’ve been told to “smile” and “cheer up” when I just have (in my head) a neutral expression. One boss even reprimanded me for looking “bored” and “disengaged” in meetings. Mind you, he was a dick!

      It happens.

      1. Katrina*

        I’m sorry that happened to you, but saying it exists for men doesn’t negate the fact that it’s a much more common problem for women. Nor does it negate the fact that the “bitch” version is by far the more common one used. Women generally speaking have a higher expectation of looking “pleasant” over looking neutral or deep in thought. (And our “deep in thought” looks are more likely to be mistaken for “something is wrong.”)

  24. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    I think LW 2 should just stick with the current system of graduate student internships. It seems like you’re trying to shoehorn something that nobody has time or resources for – you can’t even get the application process down. It’s a good thought but doesn’t sound like your org is ready for that now

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Agreed, it sounds like OP2’s company just can’t offer any undergraduate internships right now. That’s fine!

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yup, much better to be able to categorically say no than to try to shoehorn in people who don’t really fit what the company is doing. The students will be fine! They are probably trying lots of places.

    3. Crepe Myrtle*

      Yes, this is what I thought too! It may not be an option to offer them right now, and that’s ok.

    4. Hell in a Handbasket*

      I agree. It doesn’t seem a good system to offer an undergrad internship just because some random student chose to email, rather than having a selection process where many students can apply and you select the best candidate. If you don’t have time for that (understandable), I think it’s better to skip it.

  25. longtall*

    #1 I would accelerate this to HR ASAP. Bring this to the highest level possible because saying it out loud reveals just how bat guano crazy the whole thing is. Are people complaining that men don’t wear a happy face when they stroll in the door? This is a poop sandwich your office is asking you to eat. Don’t do it sister!

    1. April*

      People in my personal life who I’ve told about this have said the same as you where HR is concerned, & after reading all the supportive comments here, I believe I’m ready to take it to them. I know it will most likely ruffle some feathers, but I’m willing to risk it.

  26. Account*

    #2–
    You need a form for them to fill out! So then your response is:
    Thank you for reaching out! Please submit the attached form, and I will get back to you.
    Then you’ll have the info you need, and you’ll also weed out the ones whose commitment is so low, they won’t even click through the form.

  27. Llama Llama*

    FWIW -I started a manager job in May of 2015. It was obviously understaffed. I started then trying to get it staffed appropriately. In 2018, leadership finally agreed to the increased staffing. (To note this only happened after a huge financial problem occurred in a different department that would not have occurred if they were appropriately staffed).

    In between those 3 years, people quit. I couldn’t blame them!

  28. Zarniwoop*

    #3 You and your boss need to stop burning yourselves out keeping on top of an unreasonable work load. So long as all the work is getting done upper management will see no need to hire more people. Do a good solid days work and go home. If critical balls start getting dropped then maybe they should hire more people.

    1. AnonInCanada*

      While that sounds like a reasonable solution to unreasonable manglement policies, the unfortunate result of this tactic would be for said manglement to attribute the crumbling infrastructure to your “incompetence” and result in dismissal. Which could be the wakeup call they need (once they realize who was holding their house of cards up when you were there and now it’s all come crashing down), and a blessing in disguise for OP#3, since they’d now be free of the tyranny and likely find a way into a better position elsewhere.

      What’s that old saying about been penny wise and pound foolish?

    2. ITSysAdmin_GER*

      Everything came to a head last week and I have made it clear to my manager that this is what I will be doing effective immediately. He entirely supports this.

      I will have an update for Alison and the readership once the dust of last week’s blowup has settled.

  29. Scott (the grumpy one)*

    LW#1 – My advice is to just own it and lean into it.
    I know I (M60+) can have a pretty intense look when I’m in deep thought or concentrating on something. Many times, my wife has even told me it looks like I’m scowling when I’m not.
    A few years ago, my then-supervisor returned from vacation and told me he saw a man in a store that reminded him of me. The reason? The man was wearing a shirt with the words “I’m not angry, this is just my face” printed on it. So, I owned it. I had a sign made that I hung outside the door to my office with that same sentence. I’m not going to worry what others are thinking is going on in my head. If they want to know, they can ask me.

    1. Mentally Spicy*

      I sympathise as a man with a similarly intense neutral expression. It also doesn’t help that when I’m lost in thought I tend to fix my eyes on something but not realise. In my youth I was almost in a few bar fights because the wrong person thought I was staring at them with an angry face!

  30. Molly Millions*

    LW2: Keep in mind prospective interns are at an information disadvantage – they don’t know what kinds of openings you have, and they don’t want to get themselves removed from consideration if they say full-time and you only have budget for a part-timer.

    Things might work differently in your industry, but a lot of undergraduate-level applicants use “internship” to mean “entry-level summer job in my field” – they’re not necessarily doing it to fulfil an academic requirement with specific criteria. These vague enquires you’re getting might reflect genuine openness to whatever you have to offer, rather than lack of preparedness.

  31. Ex-Prof*

    LW #1, the gendered side of this is disturbing.

    Has any man ever been told he has resting b**** face?

    This is “You should smile more!” territory.

    (If LW #1 is a man, I apologize, and am prepared to be knocked over by a feather.)

    2. Bibliothecarial*

      I agree that it’s likely to be gendered, because it usually is, but my partner is a man (beard scruff, broad shoulders, and all) and he often gets told to smile by coworkers and customers. It’s also a hazard of working retail.

    3. Mentally Spicy*

      Yes, I have. It’s a thing that happens sometimes. I’ve been told to smile or cheer up by both men and women. One boss reprimanded me for looking “bored” in meetings. I told him I’m not bored, that’s just my face. As I posted just above I was almost in bar fights in my youth because some idiot thought I was mean mugging them!

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I suspect men are more likely to encounter it if they belong to another minority – POC, autistic, gay-coded, working in certain so-called “unskilled” fields… I’m not going to say it could never happen to a straight cis white neurotypical male working in a traditional “profession,” but I would suspect they are less likely to experience it than other groups.

        1. RVA Cat*

          True. Roy ****ing Kent’s scowling eyebrows came to mind, but then the character is dealing with ageism and the actor is Jewish…

    4. Shynosaur*

      I mean, the first time I ever heard of this term–now many years ago–was describing Jeremy Renner, and no part of my experience has ever had it be gendered on any level. I’ve heard many men use it to refer to themselves and other men.

    5. April*

      Lol, I’m a woman. However, the fact that my supervisor is a woman as well has a lot to do with how it made me feel. Plus I know without a doubt that if the same were said to her, she’d instantly feel insulted & most likely respond angrily. Yet I smiled, showed no signs of being upset, calmly asked her what she meant, & went about the rest of my shift as if nothing had been said.

    6. allathian*

      It’s also cultural. In many places they can provide service without a smile and nobody’s at all put out. This may be particularly true in Eastern Europe. I’m currently on vacation in Latvia and so far customer service reps have been friendly and helpful but not particularly smiley, they don’t show their teeth.

  32. cosmicgorilla*

    When I was in, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I didn’t know what I could do, what energized me, what exhausted me. I only knew the retail jobs I had worked, which did not give me a flavor for the corporate world.

    Yes, you are holding undergrads to too high of a standard. They don’t know what they don’t know. The ones that do
    know already have some insider information. The others just know they need “experience” and want to learn more about your industry.

    Who wrote the graduate experience at your company? You might approach them and ask them for their thoughts on what would be appropriate. You might decide how many hours you are actually willing to spend handholding an intern. You might look at a rotational program that gives the intern a flavor of the various departments.

  33. r..*

    LW4,

    NDAs aren’t uncommon for certain job profiles. The initial NDA tends to only cover the hiring process itself; once you actually sign the contract there usually will be a second NDA that governs the actual job.

    You will however need to watch out for your own interest. Personally, I will always retain the right to discuss both the NDA itself and whatever it covers as part with a legal counsel I have an attorney/client privilege with; many other things what go into NDA are negotionable from my perspective, this part is not.

    1. Jamjari*

      Yeah, I was recently asked to sign one as part of an interview process (thought I already knew some things about the job). I was slightly taken aback, having never been asked to at this stage, and the level of the job was nowhere near C-suite or patentable info. However, the key things I looked for (after an online search) were not transferring IP and a time limit.
      If there’s anything you’re uncomfortable with, you can negotiate.

  34. anonfortoday*

    #1-That’s a jerk move for your boss to pull. And to not even look you in the eye while doing it.

    I will offer this real life anecdote though….
    My husband has a version of RBF that my son and I have called his resting thinking face. When he’s deep in a work related problem and is doing code or some kind of engineering thing in his brain his face looks angry. Like seriously pissed. And my son and I ask all the time, what’s wrong. Why is he mad? He has to like physically shake himself out of whatever he’s working on his brain. He has no idea what his face is doing. He’s completely detached from his face muscles. It’s something he’s working on because he sees how it impacts our family dynamic.

    1. I Have RBF*

      I’m an enby, and I have the “thinking scowl”, or RBF, as well. It just happens when I’m deep in thought, focused on something, or distracted trying to assemble my to-do list.

      IMO, if people take it personsally, that’s their problem, and they have unmerited main character syndrome.

      If I’m staring into space, or at a monitor, or even at my phone, it’s not about anyone else but me.

  35. Alex*

    I just cannot fathom filing a formal complaint about the expression on someone else’s face. WTF? Why do they get to dictate your face? Seriously some people feel so entitled to require the world to conform to their preferences.

    1. Bird names*

      I mean, yeah. Someone mentioned lifestuff going on as one possible reason. That’s basically my baseline assumption if a colleague appears grumpy or something. If I know them well enough, I might get some additional background just casually chatting.
      If they don’t explicitly act grumpy *at me* I just try to move along.

    2. Sarah*

      I get mentioning something about a facial expression but not filing a formal complaint. Unfortunately in my office, the higher ups hired someone to fill the front desk role who rarely smiles and never greets visitors. As the face of the company, wouldn’t it be normal to expect a smile and a greeting when someone walked in the front door? I don’t know what LW 1 does – front facing or not. Apart from that one position, we’re all at various versions of alertness in the morning, so I don’t expect cheerfulness from others. I am one who is not awake and have a coworker who takes it personally when he’s not greeted with a cheery Good Morning every day when you pass by his office. Took me awhile to realize that’s on him.

      1. CV*

        If it’s important that the front desk person greets visitors in a pleasant way, that should be written into the job description.

        1. Limmm*

          That’s basic common knowledge for anyone raised on Earth.

          If someone needs “don’t actively be a D to customers” explicitly spelled out, they clearly aren’t suitable for a customer service or probably any job.

        4. Don't You Call Me Lady*

          I’m going to make sure my surgeon’s job description says “Don’t kill the patient”

        5. karate cat*

          If it’s important that the front desk person greets visitors in a pleasant way, that should be written into the job description.

          If you need to be told that, about a front desk position (or any customer service-based position), then you shouldn’t be out in society without a handler.

          Go be an edgelord on 4Chan instead of wasting time on here (but finish your 9th grade algebra homework first).

        7. Lena*

          I have worked on front desks for almost 20 years and I’ve never seen that in the job description anywhere but it’s an obvious expectation. Job descriptions aren’t exhaustive down to the nth degree. It would be like telling people they need to say hello when they pick up the phone.

  36. Art3mis*

    Many years ago I had to sign a NDA to interview at PayPal for an Administrative Assistant job. Not even for an executive, a mid level manager. I’m not sure what they thought I was going to see or hear while I was in the office. Only time that’s ever happened to me, and no, I didn’t get the job.

  37. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #5 – Many recruiters work on commission, or otherwise have some kind of metric for getting butts in seats at the company. They might offer some advice to make skills stand out better in a resume, but their goal isn’t so much to help candidates as much as it is to have a pool of talent available to source through for the company they’re trying to hire for.

    1. Smithy*

      Yes – and part of having this pool of talent, is that it’s helpful to know that while recruiters work for the hiring company, they are also looking to meet their own metrics (i.e. 15 candidates shared). I think this is particularly helpful if you see recruiters reaching out to you for jobs where you are clearly far more junior or don’t have the specialty skills it’s clear the job is asking for.

      At one point, less than 5 years into my career I was contacted by a recruiter for a VP position. It was completely within my area of expertise, but looking back I was clearly only contacted to create that large pool and was entirely under qualified for it. Another common recruiter issue I have now is when I’m contacted for a job where I have like 85% of the “nice to have” qualifications but 25% of the top priority qualifications. This can inevitably get me medium to far along in the interview process, but because of those significant experience gaps – I’m not really set up to be successful. In the past when I’ve declined recruiters because I don’t actually have the experience they’re looking for – it’s really common to hear things like “just interview” or “you never know, their priorities might shift”. And while that’s certainly true, I do think that big picture – they’re looking to put together that specific sized pool of people because of their own KPI’s.

      1. Blue Horizon*

        I have a personal rule that unless I’m actively looking for work, I will only respond to recruiters if the position they’re advertising to me is one that interests me sufficiently that I want to apply for it right now. I have had so many follow-up conversations along the lines of: “OK, so that one wasn’t a fit, but why don’t you [take a look through these other listings/describe what you’re looking for in a position/whatever] and we’ll see if we can find you something that suits better?”

        This is otherwise known as a ‘job search’. It’s time consuming and requires significant effort and emotional investment. If I’m unhappy with my job and looking for something else then sure – I’ll do it, and maybe work with them on it. But I don’t want to be in constant job search mode all the time if I’m happy where I am. If they have something that they think might be a good fit for me in particular then sure – I’ll look at it. But if I’m not interested, that’s where it ends. And if I subsequently find myself on a distribution list for all manner of positions unrelated to my experience, expect an unsubscribe.

  38. IndyDem*

    #1 – I’m a morning person, and love greeting my coworkers in the morning. But if they aren’t into it, that’s fine. I don’t take it personally. If they are like that to me throughout the day, though, it’s a little bit off-putting. But again – if it’s just their expressions and not the content of what they say, I brush it off. As long as my co-workers are at least semi-social during the workday, who cares?

    #4 – I’ve seen/heard interview NDAs in pharma start-ups, not surprising if it exists other places.

  39. Acid Queen*

    LW4: I had never really thought of NDAs until working with more things with IP issues or C-Level management involvement. I found that they like to have a plan or heads up before publicly disclosing work that is happening. We use the NDA for consultants and contractors as an umbrella document to basically say “hey could you not gossip about X where it could get discussed online, with a reporter, at the watercooler, or at at the next BBQ you’re at?” It also made it so that people felt more free to discuss shortcomings/negative issues without worrying about it impacting anyone. We kinda-sorta know they aren’t that legally binding, but it helps us reiterate to whomever that we’re trying to be discreet on what we’re working on and discussing.

  40. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    Personally I couldn’t care less what people’s faces look like as long as they’re polite etc when we talk. I might look at this though as your boss telling you others see you as unapproachable in the morning?

  41. CommanderBanana*

    I am willing to bet a not-insignificant amount of dollars OR donuts that men do not get nearly the same amount of commentary about their faces.

    I had a boss who had a problem with me having “too expressive of a face,” then I started getting Botox so was literally incapable of furrowing my brow, then I was somehow being too poker-faced.

    Basically, in a lot of workplaces, if you are a woman, no matter what you are doing, you are doing it wrong.

  42. A.*

    This is a really low risk situation.

    I don’t get why the LW wouldn’t just sign the NDA and see what they have to say.

  43. Insufficiently Festive*

    #4 this feels like a pretty big over-reaction to me. I once had to sign an NDA just to come into a friend’s office to pick them up for lunch due to the company having proprietary stuff plastered all over the office walls. As long as it’s just a “you can’t talk about what you see and hear when we discuss the role” I don’t see why it matters at all.

    1. Seashell*

      I think I’d rather wait outside when picking someone up for lunch than to have to read and sign forms. That sounds very odd to me.

      1. Kay*

        I would probably opt for the wait outside in this situation too, but once you realize the amount of openly available sensitive information at some places, it really isn’t that odd.

  44. Insulindian Phasmid*

    Genuine question – Alison mentions having a metaphorical storm cloud over you, and other commenters have mentioned looking “grumpy” or otherwise unapproachable. What, in your minds, is the difference between “not smiling; tired; RBF but acceptable” and “unacceptably grumpy and unapproachable”? Is it something you can articulate and explain or just a vibes thing?

    I’m someone who has trouble masking my emotions so it’d be helpful for me to hear what the line is there for people.

    1. bamcheeks*

      I don’t think there is a reliable way to tell from the outside, but from the internal point of view, I’d listen to my own internal monologue and figure out if I was actually angry or grumpy– even if it’s got nothing to do with work and you’re actually internally ranting at the traffic on the A52 and the idiots who designed that god-awful junction. If I am actually feeling grumpy or short-tempered, then I work a bit harder to project friendliness. But if your face looks grumpy when you’re either a) concentrating on something tricky, or b) thinking about something entirely neutral or pleasant, then that’s just your face!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think it’s mostly a vibes thing, but here are the parts I can articulate:

      – There’s a difference between having a sort of frowning face/RBF that’s fairly static (RBF but acceptable) and someone who deepens their frown/scowl/furrowed brow every time someone says “good morning” or asks a work-related question (grumpy and unapproachable).

      – There’s a difference between someone who responds to “good morning!” with a flat “morning” (RBF but acceptable) and someone who responds to “good morning!” with a scowl, a “no, it’s not,” a non-joking “don’t talk to me until I’ve had my coffee,” or something else similarly negative (grumpy and unapproachable).

      1. I Have RBF*

        I can totally say “Good morning” without performing feminine happy face, and mean it.

      2. allathian*

        I have a coworker who’s been able to weaponize her RBF somewhat. When she’s in deep focus wearing a headset, body language clearly says “don’t interrupt me unless there’s an emergency.” When she’s working on something less focused, her expression’s much more approachable and she’s not wearing her headset.

        It helps that if someone interrupts with a task, all of us can ask people to submit a ticket instead. It helps that most people still regularly WFH, so a lot of the talk at the office’s social, and my coworker’s very friendly on her breaks.

        1. Insulindian Phasmid*

          Can you at all describe the difference between those body languages and expressions? Besides the headset, which is at least pretty easy to control!

    4. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      I think in a work setting, it’s the “unapproachable” that is ok to be addressed. But I agree, i don’t know where that line is

  45. Popinki*

    I remember reading somewhere, it might even have been here, about a woman who was told to smile and did so by using both middle fingers to slowly push up the corners of her mouth.

    I know LW1 can’t actually do that, but picturing it gives me the warm fuzzies.

  46. RagingADHD*

    LW5: I have gotten connected with a number of recruiters just by responding to local job listings (not really by listings for remote jobs, they’re too inundated).

    If you have a strong resume, and build good rapport with the recruiter in the initial screening call, you can often ask for specific feedback on what would make your resume stronger for the type of job you’re seeking. I did this several times and got very helpful advice.

    It isn’t a service you can just hire them to do, but in the context of talking through your resume, they do usually have good insight about what type of skills, terminology, or framing would help sell you to hiring managers

  47. Spicy Tuna*

    Regarding letter #1 – I agree with Alison that the manager should have framed it as “this is information”… I had a work situation years ago in a small, open office where everyone disliked me. People would complain to my boss or my grandboss. I had a fantastic relationship with my grandboss and he would always tell me if someone complained and not to worry about it, but that he wanted me to know. Complaints ranged from “her clothing is inappropriate” – it wasn’t! – to “I don’t like the way she places files on my desk”. It was useful to know about while also relieving the pressure that I actually had to do something about my existence. Also useful in making me ramp up my job search!

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I had something similar in my last job, but the manager was not on my side. I was once told to be cautious about my time off because I had called off sick on on Monday after taking the Friday before off. She had said that people came to her complaining that “I always call off the day after I take vacation.” I looked back at all of my time off and I had only one other time, over a year prior, taken sick time after using my vacation time. I even looked and saw the ONLY Monday I had ever taken off was the day for my Aunt’s Funeral which had been planned in advance. Honestly that manager should have told whoever it was to mind their own business. Especially since I had FMLA and was using it!

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        That reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where the boss was being put on a PIP because 40% of his staff’s sick days were on Mondays or Fridays and the boss’ boss wasn’t any better at math than he was.

  48. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I have a sneaky suspicion that LW1 is a woman and that the people complaining are men. It gives “why don’t you smile more” vibes.

    1. differentnametimetoday*

      Possibly. I also suspect that both LW1 and the people complaining are women, but that there’s a role difference between LW1 and the complainers. I wouldn’t be surprised if the complainers are in more junior or less mission-critical roles.

  49. RVA Cat*

    Data point for #1: I just noticed a rare case of a man being described as “abrasive”. It’s in a murder documentary where he is a suspect.

  50. Resting Me Face*

    #1: Earlier in my career, when I was a trainer, a temp hire complained about my face. Apparently they thought I was mad when I was just working. The department assistant manager suggested I keep a mirror at desk to check my expression. I was offended and I didn’t take that suggestion. The temp was let go for performance issues before her work period was slated to end.

    Now, in my middle age, I am researching autism and suspect I’m somewhere on the spectrum. It seems a lot of neurodivergent folks experience this scenario where their expression is too flat, or too mean, or too… not typical.

    In some ways, working from home has made this worse. We’re expected to by on camera during meetings, which means I’m spending much too much time worried about my face and less time paying attention to what is being said. I would happily keep my camera off at all times but that’s against company policy.

    Not saying you’re neurodivergent, OP, but I do wish that we had more of a collective understanding that typical body language doesn’t apply to everyone.

  51. Pink Geek*

    LW#1 I have no advice I’m just here in RBF solidarity. Definitely do NOT buy a yellow smiley face mask and wear that to your desk in the mornings.

    1. I Have RBF*

      Definitely do NOT buy a yellow smiley face mask and wear that to your desk in the mornings.

      When I worked in an office it was very tempting…

  52. jess*

    LW#1, did the manager literally use the word “bitchy”? That would be a pretty egregious thing for a manager to say. Beyond the problems with overinterpreting your facial expression, I just think using that word in reference to a person is a profanity that doesn’t belong in the workplace. I hate it when people use it for inanimate objects too, but I accept that it would be a losing battle for me to express outrage at someone saying “that task was a real bitch”. But I think everyone I work with knows better than to say it to or about a person.

    2. April*

      Yes, she literally said bitchy. Which surprised me, as she of all people should understand why it wasn’t professional or even called for, for that matter.

  53. Inigo Montoya*

    LW#4 If the position is senior enough, the NDA is not all that out of the ordinary. I would not worry about it at all. I suspect it is there for 1 of 2 reasons:
    1. They are interviewing you to replace someone who does not yet know they are being let go. Since you have previously worked with various people in the company, they want to be sure that you won’t tell anyone what position you are being considered for.
    2. The position is high level and/or strategic to the organization. They want to discuss their future business plans as part of the interview process and need to be covered from a business / legal point of view.
    If #2, the NDA is a good thing in that it is an indication of high org chart offer. If #1, it depends on the circumstances.

  54. Susie QQ*

    > The big thing to know is that recruiters work for employers, not job seekers.

    Yes yes yes yes yes.

    I learned the hard way that the recruiter I was working with did not have my (job seeker) best interest in mind; they just wanted to fill the role so they’d get paid. Although I could have done the job, it was clearly not a good fit for me. I had a competing offer with a company (that I found through my own) that had more interesting work, a culture more aligned with my values, and higher starting salary, and the recruiter tried their darndest to get me to turn it down.

    So glad I didn’t listen. I realize probably not all recruiters are like this, but it left a very sour taste in my mouth and I haven’t worked with one since.

    1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      Recruiters are sales people. Just remember that and you’re fine.

  55. ITSysAdmin_GER*

    I’m LW#3. The bottleneck is above my manager, as I discovered after sending in my question to Alison.

    If me sending a detailed and accurate report on the poor status of our IT security due to lack of people to plan and implement necessary security measures directly to the CEO and copying my union rep counts as “something blow[ing] up”, then something has blown up. The fallout is happening as we speak, I will have an update for Alison and the readership once the dust has settled.

    P.S. Don’t worry about me, I’m not in the USA but in a country with strong employment law and comparatively strong unions. Plus I work in a field where I can line up countless new jobs before my contractual 3 month notice period (which applies to my employer as well) is up. IT experts are in high demand in my country.

  56. darsynia*

    Late to the thread but my husband works in game design sometimes and he would absolutely have to sign an NDA before discussing a potential job in that area. There are plenty of reasons why a company might not want it to be Known that they’re considering doing a specific kind of project! Off the top of my head, a sequel/planned expansion to a game, a build project where the location might be controversial, expanding into a new business area where knowledge of such a thing could affect stock prices, etc. The latter would be an SEC violation if acted on but obviously the company would want to prevent that info from getting out either way.

  57. MeepMeep123*

    For #1, I’d draw a big huge smile on a COVID mask and put that on at the office.

    1. PP*

      Ha! An idea is to wear a plain COVID mask and walk in saying something like, “My allergies really take a toll on my face every night when I have to sleep with the windows open for the [air/coolness/etc.]”. Then take it off once an hour or so has passed and your “morning allergy medicine is likely to finally be working.”

  58. fhqwhgads*

    OP2 I’d bet the undergrads reaching out are assuming you have an existing internship program in place, so all their “anything in your field” type responses are more likely to be a sign that they don’t want to disqualify themselves by giving a “wrong” answer. Unless you’ve told them you don’t have an existing structure for undergrad interns, they won’t understand you’re basically agreeing to invent an internship for them. They think there’s some concrete thing that already exists and they’re trying to convince you to let them do whatever that thing is.

    1. knitted feet*

      This has to be what’s happening. I don’t suppose it even occurs to them that a whole internship might be built to spec based on what they’re looking for. They’re assuming a structured internship already exists and they can apply to it. And if no such thing exists, they’re probably assuming they’ll be told no.

      I’ve been working for decades and that’s what I’d assume, too, fwiw! So I do think LW is feeling a weight of expectation from these students that just…isn’t there. They’re not expecting her to invent the perfect internship for them while they sit back and twiddle their thumbs. They have no idea that she’d be called upon to invent anything at all.

  59. Hiring Manager Here*

    There are two types of recruiters – in-house recruiters and agency recruiters.

    In-house recruiters, sometimes called Talen Acquisition specialists, are full-time employees of the company they hire for. These are the people you think of when you think of head-hunting in tech. Their full-time role is to hire people to work at their company. This is most common at very large companies, especially those with locations in multiple countries. This ensures hiring across the entire company follows a consistent process and is legally compliant. Most of the in-house recruiters I’ve worked with are paid a stable salary and either don’t receive commissions at all or receive some sort of bonus when the people they hire make it past a probation period.

    Agency recruiters, on the other hand, work for an external agency. They typically earn a commission based on certain metrics, such as the certain number of qualified applicants they send to their customers or the number of applicants they work with who are hired. In my experience, agency recruiters have a bad reputation in the industry.

    As a hiring manager, I work closely with in-house recruiters. None of the companies I’ve worked for have ever partnered with agency recruiters, but most of my career has either been at startups where the hiring manager handled everything herself or with very large companies that have in-house recruiters.

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