my boss says I should work more since my health insurance costs so much, coworker delays our meetings, and more

by Alison Green on August 18, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My boss says I should do more because my family’s health insurance costs so much

I have a fairly senior position at a small nonprofit, and I was the first woman on staff to have a baby. I could tell it was hard for my boss, who is used to people being on call constantly, to adjust to my new work-life division.

Currently, our organization is facing a fundraising shortfall, and my boss has called me in for several meetings where he told me that since I have my wife and baby on the company’s health insurance plan, I’m actually the second-most expensive employee after him, and that I really ought to fundraise or “deliver value” twice as much as other employees he named, because I cost so much. (Fundraising has never been a part of my job before, but I get that we’re a small org that needs to pull together. I understand that everyone else on staff either has just one dependent partner, or has the family on the partner’s plan — my wife doesn’t get health insurance through her job, though, so this is our only option.)

I am curious about how to manage this with my boss (and I’m also really stressed out and doubt I can successfully add fundraising onto my responsibilities). Should I tell my boss to change the policy to raise my employee contributions? Is there some kind of discrimination happening here?

Wow, that’s wildly inappropriate. If your organization wants to move more or all of the cost of insurance premiums for family members on to the employee rather than shouldering it themselves, they have the option to do that. But telling you that you need to contribute more value than everyone else on staff because your family is on their health insurance? Noooo.

Discrimination based on family status isn’t illegal at the federal level, but it is in some states and Washington, D.C. If you happen to be in one of them, this would indeed be illegal. If you’re not, you don’t have legal options, but you still shouldn’t tell your boss to increase your health insurance payments. This is a benefit you were offered as part of your compensation, and you are entitled to use it.

You should, however, consider how stable this organization is as an employment option long-term.

Related:
my company wants me to investigate what expensive medical treatments employees are having and why

2. How do I explain I’m staying remote when everyone else has to return to the office?

My company is enforcing return-to-office (RTO), beginning in September. I have managed to squeeze out of it, so to speak, as I got medical accommodations. When I first got it, the planned RTO was for June, and I was told by HR and my manager I didn’t have to disclose anything I was uncomfortable with, and since it was far away at the time, I didn’t bring it up. RTO was delayed, then delayed again, and about a month ago we were told RTO would be in September.

One team mate had also already planned a move before RTO was announced, so thankfully I won’t be the lone worker on Zoom meetings, but I hadn’t gotten the accommodations at the time, so I didn’t tell the team at the same time she did.

Recently I asked for someone to cover my vacation, and forgetting the specific dates of RTO, I asked a work group chat if anyone could cover. My coworker, Jay, said he could, I said thanks, and then he reminded me that three of those days were the first three days of RTO. I finally said that due to medical accommodations I would not be returning, and he said cool.

Now I am wondering what to do. I know not saying anything would be weird and wrong, and people will be confused as I do not look like someone who requires medical accommodations and I have driven to the rare in-person meetings before. Do I just make a big announcement to the full team group chat? I don’t want to make a big announcement while we’re in a meeting, as I have to be honest, I’m not great at thinking on my feet on what to appropriately say when asked questions verbally.

It depends on how much you’re comfortable sharing.

If you’re comfortable sharing that it’s a medical accommodation, you could just say at some point before the RTO date, “By the way, I want to let people know I’ll be remaining remote because of a medical accommodation.”

If you don’t want to share that, you could say, “I want to let people know I’ll be remaining remote” (or “Jane has signed off on me remaining remote” if you think you’ll need to spell that out). This one risks causing more drama, since people may wonder why you’re getting to stay remote when they’re not. You could potentially lower that risk by adding something like, “It’s a long story” or “Personal reasons I’d rather not go into.”

But if you’re willing to just state plainly that it’s a medical accommodation, that’s likely to be the lowest-drama way to do it.

3. My coworker has delayed our meetings for months

I first joined my company when I was still in college, when I took a year off from school due to the pandemic and worked as an intern for a large corporation. I really loved the team I was on, which included my manager “Gina” and her good friend “Hannah,” who I collaborated with on a few projects. I got along great with Gina (and she’s now one of my mentors), but never really felt like Hannah was vibing with me. But she was friendly enough.

After I finished school, I returned to the company full-time and kept in touch with a lot of teammates from my old team. Two years in, I realized I didn’t love my current role and wanted to explore other teams, including one that Hannah had moved to since we worked together. On Gina’s recommendation, I reached out to Hannah and set up a 30-minute coffee to catch up and learn more about her team. My company’s culture encourages coffee chats with anyone and everyone, and to put time on people’s calendars to do so. If people are busy during that time or need to push it for whatever reason, it’s totally normal for them to ask to move it to a different time or to suggest a new time in the calendar software.

For whatever reason, this coffee with Hannah kept getting moved. Sometimes last minute, sometimes a few days out, sometimes by her, sometimes by me. This happened for all of last fall, and once we were at the holidays, I said it made sense to just reschedule for sometime in the new year. I had kind of given up hope of meeting with Hannah, but I had made other connections with people on her new team in the meantime.

Fast forward to spring of this year, and Hannah is hiring for a position at my level. I reach out to her again to set up time to chat about the role (again, as is expected at the company — for internal moves, you meet with the hiring manager casually first to learn about the role, and then officially apply). Instead of getting a “sure, send me an invite” response from her, however, she kind of brushed me off, saying that she was busy prepping for an upcoming business trip, there were already a few people in the pipeline for this role, and instead I should make more connections with other people on her team (which I had been doing for the past six months!) and then she’d be happy to answer any remaining questions if I had any. With encouragement from Gina and Hannah’s boss (who I also worked with on a different team), I took this to mean that Hannah didn’t have the time to meet with me, but to go ahead and apply.

Big mistake. Hannah sent me a terse email saying I was ineligible for the role and my lack of communication (I hadn’t responded to her message declining to meet with me) further demonstrated that I would not be a good fit for her opening. This came as a complete shock to me, but I took the feedback in good faith and resolved to improve my communication skills.

My current manager (aware of everything going on) recommended I set up time with Hannah a few months after this incident to check in on how I was progressing toward becoming a better candidate for Hannah’s team (perhaps for a future opening elsewhere on the team). I communicated this and she seemed receptive, so I put time on her calendar for a 30-minute coffee chat in June … only for the same thing to happen as last fall. It’s August, and we still haven’t met — the meeting keeps getting pushed, sometimes last minute, sometimes a few days out, occasionally by me, but mostly by her. It’s probably been moved at least 5-8 times by now, and each time there hasn’t been a single word from Hannah acknowledging it.

I’m finally supposed to meet with her this week, and I just saw she’s moved the meeting to over a month from now! I’m getting the feeling she doesn’t want to meet with me at all, at which point she should just say something to me about it instead of kicking the can down the road. And would it really be so hard for her to take 30 minutes to meet with me? I’ve never had this happen to me at this company — the culture is very much that if someone wants to have a coffee chat with you, you make time, even if just out of politeness.

How do I approach this? Are there any scripts you’d recommend to confront her about it? Do I go ahead and cancel it altogether again? Or should I just let the meeting keep being postponed? For what it’s worth, her role is still unfilled, not that I would want to work under her anyway after this entire ordeal.

For whatever reason, Hannah doesn’t want to meet with you or hire you, I’m sorry. Who knows why — it could be something from when you last worked together, it could be that you remind her of a hated cousin, it could be irrational, it could be a pet peeve, it could be based on something legitimate. But at this point, it’s very unlikely that continuing to pursue either a coffee chat or a role on her team will lead to anything more than frustration. I don’t see much point in talking to her about it; you’re better off just dropping it and looking at other teams.

4. I wasn’t informed of a decision, and I’m feeling undervalued

I’m currently working part-time as a contractor with an organization where I’ve felt fairly integrated into the core team, despite my contractor status. Have been working there for a couple of years.

For the past few months, my primary responsibility has been managing/leading a hiring process for a C-suite role. After many months of interviews and deliberation, we narrowed it down to two finalists. I had a clear preference between the two (which I shared), but the final decision-makers (which included my boss) ultimately selected the other candidate.

What really stung was how I found out. No one from the team told me a decision had been made — I only learned about it when the finalist who wasn’t selected emailed me to thank me for my time after they found out they didn’t get the role. That was the first I’d heard that my boss (and others) had made a decision.

I’m not upset about the outcome — I understand that leaders sometimes make decisions that don’t align with your preferences or advice. But I was hurt that my boss didn’t think to update me on the final decision before they executed it, especially since I’ve spent far more time and effort on this hiring process than any other member of the team. Hearing the news from a third party felt like a real lack of acknowledgment of my efforts, and it left me feeling pretty demoralized. Having been a middle manager myself, I can’t imagine making an offer without updating the hiring team (and hiring manager) involved first.

A bunch of this is amplified by my own insecurities — I often struggle with whether I’m truly seen as a strategic contributor, or just as someone doing behind-the-scenes admin work, on this team. This experience reinforced those doubts. I’m actively working through these feelings (with the help of a therapist!), but it’s definitely a slow and ongoing process.

So here’s what I’m grappling with: am I right to feel upset about how this was handled, or am I being dramatic? If so, how can I express to my boss that this genuinely hurt without coming across as overly sensitive? Does it matter that I’m technically a contractor? I’m not looking to create conflict — I just want to name what I’m feeling and how it’s impacting my motivation. But honestly, it’s made me question whether I want to keep working here.

It depends on exactly what your role in the hiring was. For example, if you were doing the initial recruitment and screening and then passing strong candidates off to decision-makers for later interviews, it’s not weird that they made a decision and made the offer without informing you. That’s very normal for that role! Your work could be extremely valued and appreciated and it still wouldn’t be weird that once you handed off your part, they just ran with their part. On the other hand, if you were part of the final interviews and decision-making, then it’s a little more surprising — although even then, it’s not necessarily that weird; if you’re not the final decision-maker, these things happen and generally people are expected to roll with it if they’re not the primary decision-maker.

In either of those situations, questioning whether you want to keep working there because of it does seem like a very disproportionate reaction, so I wonder if there’s something more going on, aside from this situation.

5. Am I being ghosted?

I have had three interviews: hiring recruiter, peer, potential manager. I was told after interviewing with the hiring manager that I would be contacted to schedule a fourth in-office with the CVP. It’s been over 24 hours and I haven’t heard anything yet. I’m concerned about being ghosted, since they got back to me quickly to schedule these previous interviews.

24 hours is nothing — in all cases, but especially when there’s now a new person’s schedule in the mix. If you haven’t heard anything after a week, check in then.

Of course, it’s also possible that you are being ghosted — that happens all the time in hiring — but it would be wildly premature to conclude it at this point.

Related:
why haven’t I heard back after my interview?

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{ 280 comments }

{ 280 comments… read them below }

  1. Daria grace*

    #1 aside from the fact that this is not how any of it works and would be inappropriate to ask even of people in fundraising focused roles, it’s bananas because fundraising is a specialist skill. It’s just not something you can just tell a person without relevant experience to do, especially if requiring the amount raised they’re likely wanting here. Unskilled people trying to fundraise risk doing the organisation damage by fumbling relationships with prospects.

    1. ashie*

      Also – the leader of any marginally-functionally nonprofit should know that! This place is destined to fail, get out now.

    2. Zona the Great*

      Totally. In my fantasy, OP starts selling a bunch of the office furniture and renting office space to a start-up bro.

  2. Nancy Drew*

    OP # 3: Absolutely let it go. It’s completely clear Hannah has zero interest in adding you to her team. It was clear a long time ago. Let it go.
    In fact, now maybe is a good to time to start investigating other companies. You don’t have to make a move now, but see what’s out there.

    1. Artemesia*

      Wow yes. This feels like when I started my post grad career in the south having grown up in the PNW. When people say yes to meet but then never seem to be able to, they are shouting ‘NO’. Hannah could not have been clearer. Not just through avoidance but she has directly told you so. Move on.

      It took me a while to get the hang of friendly agreement and charm masking loathing and rejection when I worked in the south. Or just ‘yes, let’s get together’ meaning ‘we are never getting together.’ But heck after a while I learned how to do it myself although I have always preferred blunt. Both in receiving feedback and giving it.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        That would make me insane. People should say what they mean. In this case it seems Hannah won’t because that would go against the company’s culture. I honestly wonder whether pushing the meeting off indefinitely was acceptable in their culture though. Surely that’s not better than refusing to meet?

        That’s being said LW “other people in the pipeline” and “prepping a business trip” and “instead” were actually saying “I’m not interested in working with you, and I won’t make time to meet; find something else to do.”

        I do think it’s odd that Gina told you to apply without reaching out to Hannah to give her a heads up, only because it was outside the norms in your company. It would have been good for her to tell Hannah she told you to apply, since (as it happened) the missing context would make you look out of step with company norms.

        1. wittyrepartee*

          I prefer blunt too, but it really is a cultural difference. One person’s “say what you mean” is another’s “dang, that was rude, you could have had more tact”.

          1. Nola*

            Yeah, how many people actually want to hear “I find you strange and off putting; the idea of getting coffee with you makes my skin crawl” or “You’re dumber than a box of rocks; five minutes of polite chit chat with you feels like a punishment”?

            1. Myrin*

              I agree that there’s a big cultural component to this but I also want to point out that there’s a definite middle ground here!

              Your only options aren’t just “oh, I don’t know, right now is kind of a bad time…” for eternity or “if I have to see your stupid face one second longer than necessary, I’m going to clobber you”.
              A polite “I’m sorry but I don’t think you’d be a good fit for this team” (or whatever the situation in question is) can go a long way and is both straightforward and not hurtful (at least not in the way the “box of rocks” is; obviously a lot of people are still going to be hurt even by that).

              1. DJ Abbott*

                The thing about that is, then the junior employee would wonder why they’re not a good fit and want to find out more. And the senior employee may not want to deal with all that, especially if it’s not one of their direct reports.
                I prefer blunt too, but being blunt in this situation can cause problems all around. Maybe communicate between the managers instead, so Gina could call LW off and tell her why, without Hannah having to do that for someone who’s not her report.

                1. NotBatman*

                  Yes — I have no idea of OP3’s situation, but I’m similar to Gina right now. I have a junior employee interested in working with me, but over our past months of working together she has burned through every iota of my goodwill. So at this point, when she requests meetings, I go “this doesn’t work for me now, but best of luck pursuing other lines of inquiry!” because that’s more polite/professional than “I really liked you at first, and then you didn’t do a core responsibility for months and kept asking me for funding for a pet project after I’d repeatedly told you ‘no’, so now I don’t want to work with you.”

                2. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  Honestly, NotBatman, that sounds like a message I’d be willing to deliver to the person — it’s concrete and about things they did, not about personality or working style.

                  Though I’m sure there are people who’d find it overly blunt.

                3. Leenie*

                  @NotBatman – I don’t think there’s anything unprofessional about letting her know that you don’t have a place for her due to her focus on pet project at the expense of core responsibility. You don’t owe her that, but it might be a kindness, if you ever decide that you’d like to wade into that conversation.

                4. DJ Abbott*

                  The thing about this conversation as it can quickly get into weeds that a non-supervisor might not want to deal with. The junior person might ask for more detail and information, and argue about the reasons, maybe even get upset. IMHO that’s a lot to ask someone to deal with when they’re not their manager.

            3. Southern Violet*

              A lot of people, myself included, would in fact perfer that to just constantly being bumped forward. But the options arent actually be rude or be rude. You can say “I don’t think meeting up would be beneficial, have a good day”.

              Passive aggressive cultures are kryptonite to anyone not part of that culture, especially if they aren’t neurotypical. People should say what they mean.

          2. Lexxy*

            You can say what you mean and still be tactful, it’s not a blanket permission to say whatever you think without any sort of filter.

            1. Banana Pyjamas*

              THIS. Generally say what you mean, and mean what you say, but keep it brief, professional and polite. A simple we’ve already decided which candidates to move forward with would be fine.

          3. Banana Pyjamas*

            I’ve read a lot of comments saying blunt. Where I live that word’s connotation is rude maybe even abrasive or aggressive depending on the person you are describing. I’m not saying to be blunt; I’m saying be direct. You still need to be professional and polite.

        2. KateM*

          “instead I should make more connections with other people on her team (which I had been doing for the past six months!) and then” could have meant “if, after talking to other people on the team, you still don’t understand why this team is not a good fit for you…”

          1. JustCuz*

            See I took as “I am senior to you. Do not reach out to me, personally.” I get what everyone is saying about things like OP changing the meeting sometimes and about not taking hints, BUT I feel like Hannah maybe is the type who loves hierarchy, and people are beneath her.

        3. Olive*

          While I think being direct is better socially, sometimes it’s not feasible professionally. It’s possible that a future reorg could move the LW to Gina’s team for other reasons. If she’d bluntly told the LW that she didn’t want to work with her or have her on the team, that would become a professional problem. “We’re looking for a different fit at this time” should be acceptable though.

          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            We’re looking for a different fit at this time is a perfect example of direct communication that isn’t blunt or rude.

        4. Dust Bunny*

          See, to me, “Oh, yes, let’s get together” means exactly what it did here: “I need a polite answer but one that does not obligate anyone to actually get together”. It’s up there with “bless your heart” which, depending on context, most often does not mean that.

          One person’s “I prefer blunt” is sometimes that person’s “I have not learned the local dialect”.

          1. Dart*

            Yes! “Local dialect” is exactly what it is.

            When I moved to a less blunt country I had to learn that “that sounds interesting” = “I’m not I going to do that”. Saying it that way isn’t dancing around. It isn’t softening. It’s “no”. And now that I know how to use it, I love it!

        5. TM*

          Yes, by the time Gina contributed her opinion, it should have been the “let it go” kind. And if she were a reasonably good manager, she may well have made a coffee date herself with Hannah in advance to get a feel for the LW’s prospects, especially if she knew about the preceding runaround.

      2. David*

        Eh, to be fair Hannah *could* have been clearer, or at least more consistently clear, by declining the meeting requests with a note like “Given that you’re not a suitable candidate for the role on my team, I will not be considering your application further, and I’m not open to meeting with you about it.” Not that anyone would ever say that in the South, I’m sure! Or even in other regional cultures which are more direct, that would be an unusually blunt thing for a person to actually say. I just think it’s worth keeping in mind that repeatedly delaying a meeting is not being as clear as possible. (And, I’d add, that being clear once is not as clear as being clear always, if that makes sense.)

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          If I’m understanding the letter correctly, the process is to meet with the hiring manager to determine fit potential before completing an application. If so, Hannah can’t actually say anything about fit because she didn’t conduct the assessment meeting.

          Your last two sentences are spot on though.

          1. Myrin*

            I mean, Hannah has worked with OP before – it’s totally possible for her to know that OP wouldn’t be a good fit (either for work reasons or because she simply doesn’t gel with her) without a specific assessment meeting.
            (Of course, maybe protocol dictates that she would’ve had to hold a meeting like that even if she’d worked closely with OP for 20 years, but I’m wondering if the fact that she can just infinitely reschedule this meeting doesn’t indicate that that’s not the case.)

            1. Banana Pyjamas*

              Let me clarify. I meant Hannah can’t openly state fit without the meeting. Of course she knows whether she would work with LW again or not.

        2. but why*

          Even a reply as simple as “I’m not able to meet with you for the foreseeable future. I apologize for the inconvenience.” Would’ve gotten closer to the point. I’d still much rather she say up front that she’s looking at other candidates but there’s was to soften the blow while signaling that she’s not interested in hiring op.

        3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          And scolding LW for not meeting with her first is downright gaslighting given the efforts LW made to meet with her.

          2. Flor*

            I don’t see where she did that? The LW says, “Hannah sent me a terse email saying I was ineligible for the role and my lack of communication (I hadn’t responded to her message declining to meet with me) further demonstrated that I would not be a good fit for her opening.” Whether or not that’s a reasonable critique to make of the LW depends on how long or involved Hannah’s previous email was (though given she’d said she was busy I can also see why LW just decided to leave it at that).

            1. Ellie*

              That message was rude but I do think most people would have gotten the hint at that point that this isn’t going to end with them working on Hannah’s team. I’m surprised OP tried contacting them again after that. I would have dropped it, and possibly shown the message to Gina if she asked about it again.

              OP, I really think that you don’t want to work on Hannah’s team anyway. Look at other opportunities, both inside and outside the company.

        4. JaketheSnake*

          My guess is that the company culture requires Hannah take the coffee reducing her to being passive aggressive in avoidance. My husband’s company has this culture. Hannah should have just sucked it up last year and give LW 30 minutes. LW is young but she also seems a little obtuse and long winded which may be what has rubbed Hannah the wrong way. In any event, let it go!

      3. Morgan*

        Of course she could have been a great deal clearer, and should have been. Communication styles vary, but there’s a point where saying the opposite of what you actually mean is not a “style mismatch” but just crap communication that’s entirely your own fault, and Hannah is well past that point.

        It took months of rescheduling for Hannah to explicitly decline a simple meeting, she shot down LW3’s application without meaningful explanation, and now she’s playing the same unavailability game over that explanation, despite offering it and despite both of their bosses encouraging LW3 to pursue it. There’s clearly something here that Hannah is straight up refusing to communicate, and that’s not on LW3.

    2. LadyAmalthea*

      Absolutely, let it go, but because you mentioned that your manager encouraged you to contact Hannah again, without being accusatory, let your manager know why you’re letting it go so youdon’thet pushed into further contact.

      1. Teacher Lady*

        I agree that if OP3 can find a natural, non-accusatory way to mention it to their manager, that could be worthwhile, although I think that no matter what, Alison’s advice applies and OP needs to mentally move on. Getting feedback from OP’s manager on the situation might help OP to better navigate future outreach to prospective teams (ex. the manager might be able to make concrete suggestions that would help going forward).

        OP definitely shouldn’t expect that discussing with their manager would change the outcome with respect to Hannah and her team, though. That ship has sailed!

      2. TSS*

        “Talk to Gina about why you’re dropping your end of the rope” is a great addendum to the advice to give up on meeting with Hannah.

        1. Tio*

          Yeah, it’s what I came here to say. Just give the manager a quick, non-feelings run down – “I’ve been trying to meet with Hannah for months but she keeps pushing the meeting, and given that she doesn’t think I’m a good fit for her team I think I’ll be looking for opportunities on other teams.” You can also throw in “If you’ve heard any feedback on why I wouldn’t be a good fit please feel free to pass it along, I wasn’t fully understanding it myself” depending on your relationship to your manager and how she reacts to that news.

    3. Sara*

      I think there’s something about the way LW communicates that is rubbing Hannah really the wrong way. Is it possible that your requests to meet came across as demanding or rude? It could be something small but grating. For example, I have a (same level) colleague who always schedules meetings with me setting the location as their office, even though we are in buildings a 15min walk apart. When I ask someone to meet, I always offer to walk to their building, or at least meet in a room convenient for them. I am pretty sure my colleague is just oblivious, but it still makes me less enthusiastic about prioritizing our meetings. It also feels too petty to tell her what’s going on, but I would probably not want to hire her into my team either if I had an equally qualified alternative.

      Anyway, LW, has anyone else reacted poorly to your requests before? If not, it might just be that Hannah has taken an irrational dislike to you, but if it’s a recurring pattern, you might want to think more deeply about your interactions with others, just in case.

      1. Higher-ed Jessica*

        Here are my thoughts on what the small grating thing might be. LW3, when I read your letter I felt like you were really downplaying the number of times you’d rescheduled the meeting. I get that she rescheduled it even more, but I feel like from Hannah’s perspective this situation might look like “ugh, I have rescheduled a few times because I am Busy and Important and it was Necessary, but this person is junior to me and is asking me for a favor and should be trying to make a good impression if she wants me to hire her onto my team, but she can’t even be bothered to keep the planned meeting with me! I’m tired of this vague plan that keeps dragging on and embroiling me in further contact with someone I wasn’t enthused about to start with, and now I’m really just DONE with her.”

        1. English Rose*

          Yes this is the point I wanted to raise. Even if LW was the one rescheduling only ‘occasionally’ doing it at all unless it’s absolutely unavoidable isn’t a good look.

          1. Amateur Linguist*

            Yup. I’m doing a mentorship with someone who basically used to have the job I want to aim for, and we’ve rescheduled a few times. Once because he was unexpectedly having to work from somewhere more public than he’d like for our call, once because I was on holiday, but the third time was something we both strove not to miss.

            In our org as well, there’s a higher than average chance that things need to be rescheduled, because being a delivery team, we’re directly handling stuff that can go wrong at a moment’s notice. People don’t string other people along for the lulz, or because the Hierarchy is Important. It’s because there’s a literal fire and that needs senior oversight to sort out the aftermath. Fires, floods, broken toilets, broken windows etc don’t generally wait their turn, and that’s the bread and butter of our job. Management generally have to be more responsive to things like this than we ICs do, and understanding that might go a long way to better relationships.

        2. TechWorker*

          Right – if I was trying to meet someone more senior than me who might be able to get me a job I would *not* be rescheduling that unless there was no other option – and certainly not more than once!

        3. Kella*

          From OP’s descriptions of the company culture, it sounds like some amount of rescheduling of meetings like this is pretty standard. So, I think it would be pretty strange if Hannah thought that it was okay for her to reschedule but no extenuating circumstance would make it okay for OP to do it, especially if the way the meeting is moved isn’t actually a thing that’s mutually agreed upon. OP mentioned Hannah had moved the meeting out another month, which was a surprise to them, which makes rescheduling have a very different connotation than if you both agree on a concrete date and then someone backs out.

          1. Pepperminty*

            “So, I think it would be pretty strange if Hannah thought that it was okay for her to reschedule but no extenuating circumstance would make it okay for OP to do it”

            In this scenario it’s a really bad look for the more junior person seeking the job.

            If you arranged a meeting with a hiring manager from elsewhere about a job opening you wouldn’t move that, would you?

            1. Great Frogs of Literature*

              If I agreed to an interview I’d try not to move it, but if the interviewer sent me an invitation for September 16th and I was out of town that day, I wouldn’t cancel my plans unless I was REALLY desperate for the job and wanted to absolutely maximize my chances (and maybe not even then, depending on the plans).

              And the culture as described by LW sounds more informal than that.

              1. OldHat*

                But you wouldn’t accept the invitation and try to reschedule when you got closer to the date. You’d state that time doesn’t work and make an alternative suggestion.

                1. Coffee Chat maven*

                  Hannah may not think that OP is serious about the role. An “informational interview” guised as a coffee chat in is still a type of interview and if OP rescheduled a few times before their meeting than Hannah may not have thought OP was interested enough to prioritize those meetings.

              2. Amateur Linguist*

                It would depend on what those plans were and what the work commitment was.

                First holiday away with prospective in-laws and interview for job that would be a step up but not vital? Sorry, I had to pull out of the application process because it would have been awkward to pull out and upset my fiance.

                Work do (which I enjoy immensely and would likely involve watching my colleagues suck at karaoke and probably sucking myself but what the hell, I’ve been there before) while I’m on holiday out of the country? I looked into changing but I’d already committed enough money that was unrefundable, going the previous week would mean going before the events I was hoping to catch opened, and a week later would hit the start of the busy season for international tourists and likely cost a lot more, since I got the hotel at least at a deep discount. There’ll be more work dos and my team knows how to do them well. My mum and I did discuss it (because I’d also be away for one of her big events that I also always help out with) but she accepted my logic about the timing being crucial to my budgeting. If I’d just been taking a staycation, though, I’d have been planning around going to both.

                Cousin’s wedding when an annual convention trip has been booked and paid for almost after the last one finished (annoyingly, this is the first year I’ve ever simply paid up front for it)? Sorry, mate, you know I’d be there if I can, do you have a registry?

                Internal interview when I haven’t got a laptop to do it privately, I’m having to cover for someone on the front desk and my supervisor is having to bring the dog into work because [lots of reasons]? The team rallied round to help me get the interview done. My supervisor left Muttley with someone else in the back office while she came in to sit on the front desk. A colleague in the next town over came in with a laptop. The absolute kindness and goodwill overcame an awful lot of roadblocks to something that meant a lot to me was amazing. I got the job and the rest is history, but if it really matters, heaven and earth can be moved in a few shovels.

          2. Nodramalama*

            Imo it is more acceptable for a senior person to reschedule than the junior. They’re more likely to be busier, they’re more likely to be dealing with urgent and important requirements.

            1. Paulina*

              But the junior person currently works for someone else. Even though Hannah is senior, OP’s current boss and current team have first pull on OP’s time, and a lot can happen in a month.

          3. Banana Pyjamas*

            Yes! The fact that Hannah is unilaterally moving meetings means there’s a non-zero chance some simply won’t work for LW.

        4. Pepperminty*

          I also came here to say this. I’m amazed the LW took the risk of rescheduling with someone who is this hard to meet with.

          1. Michigander*

            But let’s be honest: Based on how much Hannah has put off meeting with LW and how upset she got when she applied for a job on her team, Hannah was probably just going to reschedule that meeting anyway. LW may have done it first in a few instances, but it sounds like there was no way Hannah was going to meet with her anyway. I’m slightly amazed that it’s taken LW a whole year of this to realise that it may be time to give up on joining Hannah’s team and look elsewhere, but I suppose it’s harder to see these things from the inside.

          2. Parenthesis Guy*

            If your boss sets up a meeting at a certain time, you may have to go especially if you’re junior. You can’t exactly tell your boss you can’t come to this important meeting with a number of people that’s difficult to schedule because you have a meet and greet with someone else.

        5. Your former password resetter*

          I don’t think so, or at least it would be very unreasonable of Hannah if it was.

          It sounds like Hannah is constantly rescheduling, and it’s frequently at the last minute and/or unilaterally.

          It’s completely normal if OP themselves can’t make it some of those times, or has something else come up. Especially since this is supposed to be a casual half-hour coffee chat. Sometimes other work will take priority over that, no matter how senior the person you’re meeting with is.

        6. Pumpkinn*

          Yeah I was really surprised that LW3 was rescheduling at all. Company culture around coffee chats is different to potential hiring chat, surely??
          If I wanted a job on another team, you best believe I wouldn’t be rescheduling that unless I was sick.

          But either way, you gotta move on. She’s not interested. The only thing I’d do is ask people about how they schedule these coffee chats. Something can be totally normal in your little part of the org, but weird to everyone else. Ie, is everyone else sending a message to someone before scheduling the meeting and you’re just randomly putting them in?

          1. EvilQueenRegina*

            To be fair, we don’t know exactly why – maybe OP really was sick, or it was like someone else said below and Hannah rescheduled to a time OP couldn’t do meaning OP had to reschedule.

        7. but why*

          Call me paranoid but I wouldn’t be surprised if Hannah was looking at both hers and OP’s schedules and picking times that don’t work for op. At least at my org, you can see when someone you’re trying to meet is available in outlook. Then op would be forced to scramble or have to reschedule.

          1. Antilles*

            If Hannah secretly doesn’t want to meet, picking awkward times for OP is a weird way of achieving that goal because typically people in OP’s shoes *would* scramble to make it work, even if it means pushing off other stuff. A discussion with a more senior person that (OP hopes) might lead to a job interview is the kind of thing people usually prioritize even if it means having to juggle or reschedule other items.

            1. Bird names*

              I mean, if the junior person has to scramble b/c that was the only time that truly worked for a more senior person, I’d have no issue. But making someone scramble just b/c your BEC with them and can’t or won’t say so out loud would make the behavior seem kinda questionable.
              Obviously we have no insight into Hannah’s motivation, so the original advice stands.

          2. KateM*

            Yeah, I do think you are paranoid, it doesn’t make sense for a busy senior person to play such games.

            1. Banana Pyjamas*

              Seniors absolutely play these games. It’s no different than refusing to give feedback even when explicitly asked.

              1. Amateur Linguist*

                Depends on how it’s requested, and what that feedback might be.

                Candidate asked politely and there were concrete, work-related issues that meant their experience fell short of what was actually needed? Going to say that. Maybe there’s subtext (I do have an annoying habit of relaxing too much in interviews and putting my foot in my mouth) but feedback is generally reasonable at face value.

                Candidate asks abruptly and was a twit in the interview? You’re going to get fobbed off, because no one in their right mind is going to be that direct with someone with the potential to get aggressive about it.

                Someone playing games or making a power play is well down the list of probabilities in OP’s case. It probably does happen sometime, somewhere, but working directly with senior colleagues who generally tell me why they’re having to reschedule and knowing why they have to do that, it’s way less likely than you think it is.

        8. Snow Globe*

          I think it kind of depends on what “rescheduling” means here. Did Hannah reschedule a meeting (that she’d previously accepted) to a time that didn’t work for the LW, so the LW had to then reschedule again? If that’s what the LW meant, then I can’t blame the LW.

          1. Washi*

            This is what I was assuming, that Hannah moves the meeting to a different time that completely doesn’t work for OP (like she’s on vacation etc) so OP needs to reschedule.

            It doesn’t sound like the OP has this issue with anyone else so I am thinking the scheduling mechanics are not the problem, it’s the relationship with Hannah.

      2. toolegittoresign*

        I gotta say, I am the kind of person where if I run into something like this, I end up saying something like “I have noticed some tension in our communications and I wanted ask if there’s anything I can do to improve on that. I respect you and hope I haven’t done anything to indicate otherwise.” Sometimes acknowledging it makes the other person check themselves if they didn’t realize their disdain was coming across so clearly. Other times, I just like to have it in writing so that if they ever complain about me, I can point to it to say “I had noticed they had an issue with me and asked about it, but they never told me what the problem was.”

        In LW’s case, I’m sad that Gina isn’t doing more to advocate for them if she thinks they’re a solid candidate.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I did this once and the coworker called to thank me for bringing it up. They hadn’t realized how brusque the tone of their emails had become and thought that had caused recent tension both with me and other coworkers.

      3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I understood from the letter that Gina is a big fan of OP. Gina is friendly with Hannah. Oh, two people she likes to work with should work together! Perfect. Except, Hannah was not impressed with OP. I think OP can have one conversation with Gina explaining that this is a dead end career wise but thanks for the support.

    4. Geranium Now*

      I was sort of thinking this, as well. This can’t possibly be the only team or company on earth, and maybe it’s time to find a different one.

      1. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

        Yes. OP3, you are awfully invested in this one company because you enjoyed it while you were a intern. Now you are there and don’t like your team. But have decided that Hannah’s team is the answer to all your problems.

        Look at other teams if you otherwise like the company. But its clear Hannah will never hire you. You need to let this go before you become one of those people who want to explain why the other person made a mistake not hiring them.

    5. WellRed*

      My goodness! The time to give it a rest was after she kept rescheduling you a year ago. Also, your company’s setting itself up to be a popularity contest type of place and shutting people out of opportunity.

      1. Jackalope*

        This is an important point that is getting missed. Meeting up with senior staff for coffee is a way to give them info on moving up, network, etc., but it’s strange that it’s the *only* way to apply for a position (or at least an unstoppable part) and you’ll be disqualified if you don’t do that before applying. This company isn’t being fair to either junior or senior employees if this is a hoop you have to jump through to get a new position. An interview after applying is fine and normal, but an informal interview before you can even apply, where you have to pin down the senior staff member and get them to meet with you, sounds like something that came from a time when the company was still tiny (not multiple teams like this) and has lasted longer than makes sense for its current size.

        1. Antilles*

          I’m not sure that’s really a hard-and-fast rule since both OP’s boss and Hannah’s boss (!) encouraged OP to apply even without the coffee chat. It might be strongly preferred so you have an idea about things rather than wasting everybody’s time with a role that’s a complete mismatch…but surely if a coffee chat was a hard-required disqualifying prerequisite, they wouldn’t have encouraged OP to roll forward.

          I suspect the more likely answer is that Hannah didn’t want to hire OP at all and chose to use “did not reply to my email, did not meet with me for a coffee chat” as a way to justify a decision she’d already made.

          1. Morgan*

            Which raises the question of why Hannah is unwilling to give real feedback about a candidate’s suitability to her own boss.

            1. Ex Manager*

              Maybe she has, and said boss disagrees with her appraisal. She is clearly looking for excuses to rule out the LW. She may be under pressure to hire him from management but doesn’t want him. She could think he isn’t competent, but it could be she thinks he isn’t a good fit – she doesn’t like him personally or thinks he won’t gel with her team, doesn’t like being pressured to hire anyone specific, doesn’t like hiring internally, has someone else specific in mind, thinks he doesn’t fit the skill set she wants, which may be some subset or even extension of the advertised job description (e.g. there are specific projects she has targeted for the role that she wants specific skills for, but can’t get a change to the description through HR due to bureaucracy)…there are a million reasons that LW could be ‘the best candidate’ from everyone’s perspective but Hannah’s.

              1. KateM*

                Or Hannah’s boss knows less about day-to-day processes and so doesn’t see that OP is not as good a fit. Or, I’m thinking about the OP who said that grandboss had approved something then they had went behind their boss’ back.

              2. Morgan*

                …there are a million reasons that LW could be ‘the best candidate’ from everyone’s perspective but Hannah’s.

                Absolutely, and it’s reasonable to expect that Hannah be able to provide those reasons. She described LW3 as ineligible for the role, so there should be some actual standard she’s using that she can describe to LW3 or to her own boss, whether or not they agree with it. And that’s all LW3 is currently seeking – feedback on their own suitability and how to improve. If Hannah doesn’t actually have a defensible reason for ruling LW3 out, and has to play games to avoid admitting that, then that puts her firmly in the wrong.

            2. Hannah Lee*

              With that in the mix it made me wonder if at least some of what’s going doesn’t have to do with OP.

              For example, I’ve been in situations where, although I had a seemingly “good” working relationship with a peer, or another manager, I didn’t fully respect their opinion on certain things, or their work style, or knew I couldn’t trust/rely on them 100% – maybe they were unreliable, or were a bit of a frenemy. If one of those people had someone on their team who *they* were cheer-leading for, wanting me to hire them for XYZ, while I *might* be willing to consider them, it wouldn’t take much friction in that process to make me say “oh never mind”
              It might be that I don’t really trust their judgement about who is a strong performer, or I know their values are different than mine / know they might prefer show boaty social butterflies to block and tackle get it done performers or some other work style difference that won’t mesh with my team, or if it’s a frenemy situation, it might feel like risking a back stab to bring one of their inner circle into my inner circle.
              But given those politics, I was not likely to clearly state my reasons for being less than enthusiastic about whoever they are pointing my way.

              In OP’s case, it could be dynamics between Gina and Hannah that weren’t to OP’s advantage, or maybe Hannah had reasons to not trust boss’s judgement or was trying to set her own course. And that, combined with scheduling issues on Hannah’s end kept bumping the meetings initially. And somewhere along the line, maybe because it just became a to-do Hannah didn’t really want to do, or maybe OP’s approach somehow started rubbing Hannah the wrong way, OP’s chances dimmed.

              If I were OP, I’d chalk this one up as a ‘not gonna happen’. Continue to build relationships with folks on other teams, including Hannah’s, as you would for normal networking/workplace relationship building. But look for opportunities elsewhere, away from Hannah.

    6. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – and if the OP’s manager revisits the issue to suggest that the OP push further, the OP should use her letter (or put together a timeline) to show just how many times she has reached out, and Hannah’s reaction.

      It’s crystal clear that Hannah does not want to meet. Honestly, the OP might want to take it as a silver lining that she doesn’t sound like a very nice person to have as a manager, either.

    7. Not Fast but Furious*

      Yeah. After the *IMHO* pretty blunt to the point of rude, email saying OP is “ineligible” and criticizing her “communication skills”, I’m wondering why OP is STILL so doggedly pursuing working on THIS team and FOR Hannah! I, personally, don’t enjoy hitting my head against brick walls and I’d advise OP to TAKE A HINT already.

      1. Morgan*

        If her boss and Hannah’s boss have both encouraged her to apply for the team, and Hannah’s told her she’s ineligible, asking “why am I ineligible and how am I doing at changing that” – which is what the meeting she’s currently trying to set up, at her manager’s recommendation, is about – seems like completely unremarkable career development. At this point it’s not about OP taking a hint, it’s about Hannah having hiring standards she can actually justify.

        1. Malarkey01*

          Or it’s a level of “gumption” that is beyond the pale. If I directly tell someone they aren’t eligible for a job and they still keep trying to schedule time to talk to me (when I already couldn’t fit them in the previous year)… I strongly question their EQ and judgment. I don’t mean that unkindly but she has been told directly she isn’t getting hired on this team.

        2. A Significant Tree*

          I agree, it would definitely help the situation a lot if Hannah would just step up and say clearly (and politely) that it’s not going to happen and here’s why. I’d be willing to bet it comes down to not wanting to work with the OP on a personal level and that is a lot harder to discuss. But if Hannah is a people manager, she needs to be able to have those hard conversations. The fact that she keeps postponing it and has sort-of lashed out at least once reflects really poorly on her leadership skills.

          However, if the best case scenario is that Hannah’s boss someday overrides her and OP does finally get a spot on Hannah’s team, against Hannah’s pretty clear indications that she does not want this, that is not going to be a win for OP.

    8. Mad Scientist*

      I think a lot of replies to this comment are forgetting that multiple people encouraged LW3 to set up these meetings, including their boss.

      I’ve had similar situations come up a few times at previous jobs, but the weirdest one was at my last job: My boss asked me to meet with a colleague from a different regional office (let’s call her “A”) who I had previously worked with on a couple projects for a specific client. I was told that “A” had a lot of upcoming projects for that same client, and my coworker “B” was available and interested in those projects, and since I was already familiar with the client, I could help bring my coworker “B” up to speed. Or at a minimum, my boss wanted me to simply check in with “A” about upcoming work in both of our offices. Fine with me, I had worked with “A” before and thought it would be no big deal to have a quick chat to both catch up and plan ahead, and it was normal throughout the company for people to reach out for informal check-ins like this. Gave her a call, she didn’t answer, no biggie. I sent her a brief chat message explaining why I was calling and asking her to call me back at her convenience, no rush. She asked me to set something up on the calendar later that week, fine with me, I sent her an invite which she accepted. Day-of, she rescheduled, then rescheduled again, and maybe even a third time, and also forwarded the invite to her own supervisor. In the meantime, my boss and coworker “B” were both asking me somewhat regularly if I had talked to “A” yet and if I had any updates. Finally, “A” messaged me saying that she needed to postpone the meeting indefinitely and that she has to have more meetings with her own supervisor and/or other people before she could talk to me (?!) I shared this update with my boss and coworker “B” and they were both very confused. It was very out of sync with company culture to simply not pick up the phone if a coworker calls you or refuse to meet with them altogether, and the vague explanation made it all the more bizarre. My boss and “B” continued to follow up with me about it for a while afterwards and even asked me to try again to meet with “A”, but I left that woman alone completely after she essentially told me to. I quit that job before ever figuring out what was up (my only guess is maybe an HR situation?) but don’t really care, I wish her well.

    9. March*

      OP 3 – if your current manager (who is not Gina, right?) is aware of Hannah’s whole ducking&dodging dancey-dance dance, why are they even still recommending you keep chasing her? Your current manager should know better. Unless they have a reason not to want you on THEIR team, they should have zero stakes in this and not tell you to keep going after someone who doesn’t want to work with you and projects her own lack of communication skills onto you. There are weird bees in this company’s walls somewhere.

  3. Artemesia*

    1. Keep very good time stamped notes of these conversations for when they fire you ‘at will’ because you cost a lot.

    My husband was a partner in a small law firm with older partners and staff who had family members with chronic illnesses. 20 years ago it was costing about 25K a year per family for insurance because ‘small pool, high need participants’. And you know what they did? they paid it. Because I had access to good family insurance where I worked my husband agreed to drop their policy to save the firm that huge hunk of money. But to harass people who happen to have high need is nasty — and for a non profit which I assume is doing good work to do that is even worse.

    Keep very good detailed notes of these conversations.

      1. Bird names*

        Letter #3 shows how it can be easy to miss a worsening pattern until you write it all out. If nothing else it’ll be confirmation for LW1 and may help them consider additional options outside their company a bit sooner.

      2. Delores*

        When they contest unemployment by pointing to an obscure and infrequently used rule, you can point to the targeting and bias as the actual reason, breaking that defense.

      3. What in the world?*

        Even if a particular anction isn’t illegal it can still be used as documentation of an overall pattern.

          1. Booked up*

            My husband was at a public library that did this— they reduced staff by firing the 1/3 costing them the most in health insurance…

            And yes, it turned out to be an illégal way to do layoffs since they didn’t take into account seniority or job performance, just family size and health.

            This can come under medical discrimination too- definitely document. But also be prepared for them to possibly drop family coverage. (In the case with my husband, the director still wanted family coverage for herself, which is why they didn’t go that route)

            So document, document, document, because if your org is already changing your job description due to your family’s size and health, other shenanigans are likely in the offing.

            Also, start looking for another job- they are flat out telling you that they don’t value you.

      4. Jackalope*

        Depending on where the OP lives it may not be illegal to discriminate on family status, but if for example they end up firing multiple people “due to their expensive family status” and all of those people happen to be women, or fit into another protected status, then that would be illegal.

      5. learnedthehardway*

        I think it makes sense to document, because there is a good argument that it is discrimination based on family status or health conditions.

        If things get worse, it would be worth a chat to a lawyer to find out exactly what the OP’s legal rights are here.

        1. Smithy*

          I think talking to a lawyer is helpful – but I also think it’s worth flagging along the lines of what it means to be working at a nonprofit that may be in financial trouble. This doesn’t mean anyone should be forfeiting their rights for any job, but it may just be helpful to have an understanding around the big picture both financially and legally, and how they intersect.

          I will also note that while the organization may have put themselves in a difficult legal situation with keeping the OP on staff, if the org is in real trouble I wouldn’t be surprised if this boss is reviewing cheaper medical insurance options for the org. Essentially something that is overall cheaper for the org/more expensive for individual employees. And could be particularly more costly for someone with a family. Basically – if this nonprofit is in financial trouble – there are other legal things that can happen which would make the job/compensation worse overall.

          1. MK*

            I agree. OP getting fired because their health insurance costs more than other employees is a possibility, but if the higher-ups have already started thinking about how much health insurance is costing the organization, they are erg likely to start making cuts in that area.

          1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

            OP1 should escalate this to the Board. Having served on several nonprofit boards, I was shocked at how hands-off many of them are and how much they overestimated the management capabilities of their staff. Since OP1’s job is already being threatened by the boss, this would be the best way to preserve their job.

      6. Generic Name*

        So they can get unemployment in case the company fights it. Small companies that are this stingy have a tendency to fight unemployment benefits when they fire people because they don’t want their unemployment insurance rates to go up.

      7. Not Fast but Furious*

        But it IS illegal. Even in an at will state you cannot fire someone for a protected reason, and family status is one. The OP would have an excellent case for “they fired me because they don’t want to pay for my insurance benefit because of my FAMILY STATUS, i.e. having a child on the plan.

          1. JustaTech*

            And even in states where “family status” is a protected class, it may only be a protected class in specific instances – like in my state you can’t be denied housing because you have kids, but you can be fired for having kids.

    2. Sara without an H*

      Yes, LW, by all means, document everything. It’s always better to have documentation and not need it, than to need it (desperately) and not have it.

      It might be worthwhile to set up a meeting with an employment lawyer, not necessarily with the idea of suing, but just to be sure you understand your legal position and what the employer can, and cannot, do in your state.

      Lastly — focus on getting out of there! The organization is under financial stress, they’re changing your job description, and playing games with benefits. These are not good signs. Read everything in the AAM archives on job searching and start plotting your escape.

  4. KJ*

    OP#5, 24 hours is super short! If they have multiple candidates, the hiring manager will probably complete everyone’s interviews before deciding who to move on to the next or final round, which can take a week or more. They also probably need to work with the higher up to figure out potential times for anyone they want to move on. I agree with Alison to wait a week before checking back.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Hard agree. OP5, the hiring team is doing dozens of different things, of which hiring you may be far from the most important—or urgent—item. Moreover, it’s August and some involved people may be on vacation. It would be shocking at most companies if they got back to you within 24 hours. Give it at least a week before you reach out and don’t be surprised if they still are not ready for next steps.

    2. mango chiffon*

      Especially if it’s with someone higher up in the organization’s hierarchy. Calendars get harder to schedule the more senior someone is, or at least it does in my organization. I schedule interviews a lot and I can quickly set up the rounds with the more junior staff, but if it’s senior staff, even VP level? That takes a lot more finessing.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – except in VERY RARE instances, I have never reached out to a candidate within 24 hours of their interview with a decision. The only times this has happened have been in high volume recruiting projects, where there were multiple (ie. more than 10), fairly junior openings of the same type & level.

      Unless this is a high volume hiring situation, it’s far more likely that the hiring manager will complete the first round of interviews before making decisions on round 2 interviews.

      The OP should not expect to hear back for at least a week.

      1. Not my real name*

        Just to clarify, the way I read the email, OP wasn’t concerned about not getting a decision. OP was concerned that they had been told another interview would be scheduled and had not heard back in 24 hours. I think OP’s expectations are not realistic, but it was not expecting a quick decision, simply a quick follow-up on scheduling a meeting.

    4. Not Fast but Furious*

      100% agree. If I were the hiring manager and I knew how the OP was spiraling after 1 DAY, I’d have reservations about “ok what kinda….” is this person? DoorDash doesn’t deliver job offers! lol

  5. Shadow Cat*

    #3 I think Hannah hates you for some reason. This is so odd. This is at the point where clearly something happened that you’re not aware of. To be that mad that you applied for an internal role, and to literally reschedule a 30 minute meeting over and over for a whole year? She HATES you. Stay far away from her and watch your back. I would still try to figure out why she hates you so much, because she might be talking badly about you to other managers. Don’t let that fester.

    1. Roland*

      Sounds like both Hannah AND also OP kept rescheduling the meeting. That would be pretty annoying as the senior in this situation tbh.

    2. Pepperminty*

      #3 I don’t see how you did anything wrong by applying for that vacancy. I do think tone of voice gets lost on email, which could be happening on both sides.

      But I really am surprised that you rescheduled the meeting at all. The first time around maybe. But this time around, too?! This makes it look like you aren’t serious either. Presumably Hannah is more senior to you. If I was trying to meet with someone who kept rescheduling and I had a meeting in that they hadn’t yet moved, I would not move it myself – I would move heaven and earth to ensure I attended.

      I wonder if you’ve taken her rescheduling as a sign that this is ok on both sides. In this sort of situation, it kind of isn’t. I hear that you say it’s partly the culture, but hierarchy matters a bit here as does the reason for the meeting. I work somewhere where people absolutely move meetings around, but I’d tell a junior person in your position to absolutely avoid it.

      2. Non non non all the way home*

        I had the exact same thought. Literally everything else humanly possible would be rescheduled before I would cancel with Hannah.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      This definitely occurred to me too. I mean, it doesn’t need to be hate for someone to decline to hire you, that can just be down to a complete lack of interest, but the possibility is there. It could simply be ‘eh, I’m busy and not particularly interested in meeting with you’ but there’s the vibe of a more determined dodge. The most damning evidence is how Hannah responded to OP’s application. It was unnecessarily harsh; how hard would it have been to say “Oh sorry, when I said others were in the pipeline, I meant I didn’t think you were a good fit and applying isn’t right at this time”. Or she could have just not moved the application to interview. Accusing OP of bad communication in not responding is downright weird. OP was given a brush off in terms of their meeting, there was no loop to close. What was OP supposed to say, “Okay I’ll keep hanging out in limbo then?” Any follow up questions would have been equally brushed off or dodged.

    4. LaminarFlow*

      Yes! There is def something strange going on with Hannah. To reschedule something over and over again for even a month is pretty ridiculous, unless there are vacations/business trips/medical leave/etc. at play. I would consider Hannah’s constant rescheduling and flakiness to be a “bullet dodged” scenario. If merely getting a meeting with her is this complicated, think about how hard it is to have Hannah as a direct report manager?!

      A friend & colleague of mine was in a similar situation for the better part of a year. It was hard to see her work so hard for something that was absolutely never going to happen, but she wouldn’t accept the possibility that the hiring manager didn’t find her to be the right fit for the role.

      1. Not Fast but Furious*

        Yeah, I get that some people are a little iffy on social and/or professional cues, but a YEAR of rescheduling and cancelling meetings and that email… I mean even the most clueless person should’ve picked up what Hannah was putting down in that timeframe. There is NO job I’d chase to the point of demeaning myself.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think she should talk to her mentor Gina (who seems to be Hannah’s friend) and just tell her exactly what’s happened and explain that she doesn’t want to be on Hannah’s team now but that she wishes she knew what she did wrong.
      Is Hannah unaware of the Coffee Chats being a normal thing in their organization and so she thought the OP was taking advantage of their previous coworker relationship? Did she have a falling out with Gina and so taking it out on OP?

      I also think that the OP should show the email she got from Hannah to her boss. Not in a way to get her in trouble, but in a way to ask if she is off base and to get his opinion.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        That Gina and Hannah are friends could be a major factor. Maybe Hannah doesn’t want to disrupt the friendship by saying outright to Gina “the person you hired (OP) sucks and I would never want to work with them”, so Hannah keeps hinting around. That way, Hannah doesn’t have to deliver bad news to her friend and Gina keeps missing the obvious points. Perfect case of how trying to be nice interferes with being kind.

    6. Southern Violet*

      I do what OPs manager has said to Hannah. Something happened. Maybe manager isnt keen on the OP and, being part of the same weird culture, isn’t saying why.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It sounded like Manager and Gina both encouraged OP to apply. Hannah’s the only one who reacted like OP applying was out of line. I’d be fascinated to hear what the manager and Gina think of Hannah’s reaction, since everyone else seemed to think applying without having had the coffee thing was a reasonable action.

  6. Pepperminty*

    #4 “Does it matter that I’m technically a contractor?” Probably, yes.

    I’m coming at this as someone who works in government. Being a contractor is not just like being an employee with different admin behind the scenes. There are always going to be times when you cannot be party to decisions in the same way as people who are directly employed.

    Should this have been one of those times? It does sound like they could have been kinder about letting you know. But never assume malice on the part of other people when it could just be them being busy or forgetful.

    I’m actually surprised you were able to be involved in hiring at all with your contractor status!

    1. Nebula*

      If the LW is in a sort of headhunter position, this makes sense. That was my read on what the situation might be, given that their ‘primary responsibility’ for the last few months has been managing the hiring process for a C-suite role.

    2. Great Frogs of Literature*

      My wife is a contractor (her employer contracts multiple people to the client company) and she’s been asked to participate in client interviews because the client thinks her employer is better at hiring good people!

      I don’t know if she’s ever been told that one of them got hired, though, if it wasn’t someone she would work closely with.

    3. Generic Name*

      Yeas, not just a contractor, but a part time one at that. Rightly or wrongly, the part time status may be coloring their perception of the LW.

    4. Not Fast but Furious*

      So, I’m also a govt. contractor. I am often involved in interviewing as a technical SME, while the govt is more the administrative side. I’ve also participated in contract awards for govt contracts to build.. widgets for example. But those were blind proposals, so we didn’t know the companies. I and other contractors, as well as program people gave our feedback and the govt ultimately made *IMHO* the wrong decision. But it’s quite common for us to be involved and nobody seems to have a problem with it as long as there’s no CoI (e.g. my company is one of the bidders–they never are; they don’t do that type of work).

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      My guess is the letter writer is a contract recruiter. Many companies use contract recruiters to supplement their in house recruiters.

    6. hiring director.*

      I would honestly think nothing of not being told. I’ve been on final interview panels, and then not told who they were going with – and often that’s cause you make the offer to #1 and negotiate, and if they don’t want it you go to #2 – so it isn’t always a straightforward case of who gets what. It was an oversight on their part, but I wouldn’t think of it as a malicious deliberate slight. They were busy making and implementing the decision.

      Part of it may be because you are a contractor. also part may be because you are part time. My organization has VERY few part time staff, and honestly we’re bad at communicating with them. We often forget they were working the day XYZ happened and don’t catch them up well.

  7. Juniper*

    LW3, by your own admission you were responsible for moving two separate coffee dates what sounds like several times each. Considering that you were the one asking for the meeting in the first place, first as a personal favor and then because you were hoping to be hired by this person the second time around, I’d be annoyed too if I were in Hannah’s shoes. I think she could have gone about this better, and it could very well be that she has developed an irrational dislike that you shouldn’t spend energy trying to fix, but it could be worth investigating how these interactions may have contributed to an impression that you weren’t reliable or a clear communicator.

    1. Retail Dalliance*

      This was absolutely my first thought. OP should have never moved this meeting if OP wanted it so much.

  8. Me*

    #3 “… would it really be so hard for her to take 30 minutes to meet with me?…”
    Words like these are a pet peeve of mine. People demanding 30 minutes of my time think it’s no big deal. But I have a lot of people wanting just 30 minutes of my time. These “just 30 minutes” add up to a lot of MY time and energy.

    That said, I suggest you cancel the meeting. She’s not going to meet with you. Consider it a blessing that you got such a clear warning and look for better jobs elsewhere.

    1. bamcheeks*

      I get the frustration if those words were coming out of nowhere, but I think it’s understandable when you’ve been trying to meet with someone for over a year. If your time is that important, send a message declining and explaining why! Or send a message apologising but re-affirming that you it is important to you! Constantly re-scheduling isn’t respecting their time OR your own.

      1. NotBatman*

        Obviously I have no idea if OP3 was ever the one rescheduling last-minute, but. If someone says “can we meet for 30 minutes” and I set aside 11:50 – 12:40 during a busy day so that I can meet 12:00 – 12:30, and the person IMs at 11:45 to go “sorry, gotta reschedule”…. then they’ve *already* taken more than 30 minutes of my time. They get ONE more shot at a meeting, but if that happens a second time then I’m not going to block anything else out for this person.

      2. Not Fast but Furious*

        “but I think it’s understandable when you’ve been trying to meet with someone for over a year.”

        Ummm after a few months, a normal person would’ve taken the hint! Yes, it IS that difficult for Hannah to meet with you for either business or (likely) personal reasons. Probably due to their “coffee chat culture” she doesn’t want to explicitly say, “Please stop. This isn’t going to happen,” but she is DEFINITELY saying it in a coded way and the OP is either very naive, or very persistent or just not getting it, but she really NEEDS to “get it” and let it go.

        1. Amateur Linguist*

          Indeed. We’re also seeing this through the OP’s eyes, and while we can give them the benefit of the doubt, it seems like they don’t necessarily understand how they might be coming across to Hannah.

    3. hiring director.*

      Agreed. Depending on how busy they are – they may be rescheduling with you multiple times. You aren’t a direct report, and its an informational meeting. That’s the first thing to go.

      For whatever reason she doesn’t want to hire you and doesn’t want to meet with you – I’d let it go.

  9. Kiki*

    Letter #1: I would start your job search now. Having your wife and one child on your health insurance is really normal. It’s not any sort of extraordinary circumstance. That your boss is bringing it up like it’s a really big deal tells me either that the fundraising shortfall is very dire OR your boss has lost the plot on what it costs to employ people. In either scenario, having some groundwork laid for an exit will be helpful.

    1. Some Internet Rando*

      I agree. I also wonder if the Board of Directors knows that the boss is setting this expectation. I would bet they don’t. I think the boss is in trouble and is shifting the responsibility onto you. This is not cool. Your health insurance is a benefit and I would bet in other ways you are underpaid compared to a corporate job (given that it is a struggling small non-profit) so paying for your insurance is the least they can do.

      1. MsM*

        I don’t know. I think there’s an equally good chance the Board of Directors also doesn’t know what they’re doing and is putting it all on the boss to fix the budget shortfall when that’s also their job. Which of course does not excuse what the boss is doing, but I think OP needs out first and can assess from there who needs to be told about exactly why she left.

        1. Smithy*

          Yeah….without knowing what the OP’s job is….there may be a genuine way to be more supportive or engaged with fundraising. And the boss is rolling out this expectation in a horrible way.

          If the OP is head of HR, then things are just bad bad. It may just be that the organization isn’t doing great, and the boss is just handling the stress poorly. But it could also be that the type of programmatic job that the OP has previously has never required prioritizing fundraising efforts and now that expectation is changing.

          1. MsM*

            I’m with Yes And below: you want your programmatic staff focused on actually carrying out the mission. Be available to talk to funders and pass along ideas/RFPs/contacts that come their way, sure, but they shouldn’t be devoting significant chunks of their time to prospect identification and solicitation. If that’s a necessity for the organization to survive, then that’s a problem.

            1. Smithy*

              Oh absolutely – and honestly big picture, this is where how the boss is handling this is just poorly. Either bad strategically because the directive isn’t clear. Or indicative that the funding situation is really dire. And also likely, could just live somewhere in the middle. Where the funding situation isn’t great, and things do need to change – but then not being more explicit what that means.

              As a fundraiser, I have found that communicating to program staff what it means to partner with fundraisers rarely is done well. So quite frankly, the fact that it was done badly isn’t a surprise.

        2. Salty Caramel*

          The Board of Directors likely doesn’t get that granular. My experience is BoDs want to be strategic, but leave the details of the execution to the employees.

    2. HonorBox*

      Insurance is expensive. That’s a fact. However, having just gone through the fact-finding process to evaluate new insurance plans for employees, the cost of adding a child is not so significant that it should require someone who doesn’t fundraise to go out and find ways to cover that cost. At most we’re probably talking $10K for the year. So if the company is on that kind of thin ice, it is time to get out.

      And related to losing the plot – This is something that the boss should definitely realize, yes. And if the cost for providing insurance to employees and families is problematic, they need to have a larger conversation about potentially changing what the organization covers for employees. It wouldn’t be unheard of for the organization to pay 100% for employees and then expecting that employees cover the cost for dependent insurance. This seems like it is coming from a boss who hasn’t really experienced the world…

      1. Miette*

        100% agree, and especially with your last sentence. How do you offer employees insurance and then balk when one of them has a family? That is part of life–it ought to have been in their plans. If they can’t deal, they can always change the policy or whatever, but this boss sounds clueless

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Specifically, they offered *family coverage*. If they couldn’t afford it, they shouldn’t have offered it!

    3. Southern Violet*

      Yup either the place is going down in flames or the founder isn’t competent enough to tell if it is or not. Either way, get out.

  10. Seashell*

    #3, even if by some miracle, Hannah did meet with you and later hire you, does she really sound like someone you would want to work for?

    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      This. What is the term I learned here? Pyrrhic victory…
      What are you fighting for?
      A job you are kind of interested in with a person who does not like you.
      You like Gina and after two years you don’t love the role.
      Let that sink in.

    2. Pony Girl*

      Good point! She even said when they first worked together she felt that Hannah didn’t really “vibe” with her.
      And now Hannah is mad at LW#3 for what – not replying to her email? I bet Hannah would make LW#3’s life miserable if she was working for her.

      LW#3, stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If Hannah wanted to consider you for the position, she wouldn’t brush off your attempts to meet. Move on and find a job someplace that’s a better fit.

    3. Forrest Rhodes*

      This was my first thought too, Seashell. LW already knows how Hannah will deal with her. Dealing with Hannah’s attitude is no way to spend 40 (possibly more) hours a week!

  11. A Book about Metals*

    For #2, it sounds like you’ve already told Jay about your accommodation, so the cat’s out of the bag anyway. Doesn’t sound like it was an issue with him so I’d just say the same thing to the rest of the team

    1. JSPA*

      Most likely people will not have opinions on when they were told. If you’re still worried that they might, there’s, “accommodations for a thing I’m still getting my head around” or “for a current medical thing.”

    2. Letter Writer #2*

      Hello, thank you for your kind words. I definitely plan on being as helpful as I can be when RTO finally kicks in. My team is great, and my manager I believe is one of those who cares. I’m unsure how much help Jay will be though, as he already privately informed me that he’s looking for new employment asap (he’s one of the Many Disgruntled with RTO), so I don’t know if we can depend on him to gossip me out of needing to make an announcement.

      1. Tired Old Username*

        Remember too, that invisible disabilities exist, so don’t worry that you don’t “look” like you need an accommodation.

        1. Letter Writer #2*

          Hah thank you. Unfortunately, many others don’t know this, so it’s a battle I’m going to have to face.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Hey, I just wanted to point out that this framing probably isn’t helpful: “I know not saying anything would be weird and wrong.”

        There’s nothing wrong with not sharing private medical information! It sounds like you have at least one coworker who was exempted from RTO for non-medical reasons, so there’s precedent.

        There’s also nothing wrong with saying it’s an accommodation, or due to personal circumstances, etc. You could send out an email, or you can practice saying just you want to say and no more.

    3. Not Fast but Furious*

      Yeah, I think the fact that the RTO kept getting pushed back, makes it seem quite reasonable that OP didn’t mention it previously and now that it’s reality, is ready to share because it’s relevant now when it wasn’t before.

    4. Brevity*

      This shouldn’t be a battle at all. You have a medical accommodation, approved by your boss and HR, which means they have all of the details and it’s legit. If anyone starts whining about it, that’s THEIR problem, not yours. There is no reason to feel ashamed, embattled or even bothered. This is how business works.

  12. Ash*

    For the scenario in LW2, I’m picturing another employee asking their boss why they don’t have to RTO. Is it okay for the boss to say that LW2 has an accommodation and that’s why they are not returning to the office? How else would you handle that situation without essentially saying, “because that’s just the way it is”?

    1. Tio*

      If someone is asking me about another employee I tell them “There are reasons such as accommodations that may be in play with other peoples’ schedules. Any exemptions are handled by an employee’s boss and we do not disclose personal information. If you want to discuss an accommodation for yourself, you can (procedure).” Some people will not be satisfied with that, but those tend to be the type of people who are not satisfied until they have practically your entire life story laid out for them and have to learn to sit with their discomfort.

      It does get tough sometimes because people have a bad habit of tending to assume things, but if you maintain that kind of attitude overall, they learn that prying is not going to get them anywhere. You just want to ensure that you don’t spell out for sure who does or does not have an accommodation unless it’s something everyone has agreed on. (I have one, for example, and I told my team I have one and that’s why they may not see me in office every assigned day, because I wanted to be upfront with them and I didn’t want them to make up their own narrative or feel like I was taking advantage of my position. I would not tell them about anyone else.)

  13. CQ*

    As a neurodivergent queen, #3 hurts my heart because it sounds so much like me. If someone isn’t interested in being my friend or hiring me, I’m always the last to know.

    A note to neurotypicals: if you’re dropping hints like this and the other person isn’t getting the message, it might be kinder to tell them in a polite, direct way that they’re wasting their time.

    This situation, however, is especially interesting, because OP was acting on recommendations made by Gina and her current manager to continue pursuing contact with Hannah. Maybe she would have let it go sooner if she wasn’t getting so many mixed messages?

    1. MsM*

      People above do make a good point about OP rescheduling, but I almost wonder if there’s some kind of issue between Gina and Hannah that OP’s catching strays from.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        There’s no evidence of this in the letter, but I did wonder if maybe Hannah didn’t like that Gina got along so well with LW and was jealous. (Or perhaps something more complicated where Gina thought LW was great and Hannah was like, “I dunno, they seem kind of mediocre to me…”)

      2. BigLawEx*

        I feel like there’s something to this. I think OP should cancel, and if Gina or someone else asks, just say it didn’t work out…. There’s something awkward here, and I feel like OP needs to back away and leave it to others, perhaps?

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        Could be. I was thinking it possible that either Hannah resented the LW being close to Gina or else that Hannah just didn’t think the LW was a good fit for the team but didn’t want to say that to Gina so was messing things around so she can tell Gina “oh, we just keep missing each other. I’d love to meet her but we just can’t find a time we’re both available. Too bad, so sad.”

    2. AngryOwl*

      Agreed. I feel like a lot of commenters are either missing or ignoring the fact that Gina and others have *told* OP to keep setting meetings.

      1. BigLawEx*

        It’s a shame because my guess is that Hannah just doesn’t want OP on her team and doesn’t want to outright say it. Sounds like a culture where everyone is overly polite and no one says, ‘no.’ (My read is coming from the fact that there are all these informal meetings that folks are encouraged to take.)

      2. Not Fast but Furious*

        I think some are ignoring that, if you reread the letter, the manger/Gina encouraged communication 1) in the beginning when OP expressed interest in Hannah’s team 2) to apply for the job; and 3) to set up a meeting a few months after the “not hiring you” email to ‘check in’. There doesn’t appear to be ongoing “hey keep bugging Hannah; she’ll relent eventually,” direction. Also, it sounds like it was Gina first, as a mentor who encouraged a coffee chat, and later the current manager said to set up a check in; so my read on that is 2 people have told her to set up a meeting, once each.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      It’s Ask vs. Guess culture. It’s not socially acceptable to give an honest blunt no, so Hannah has to hedge about.

  14. mreasy*

    And yet, I suspect OP1’s boss wouldn’t agree that a less expensive employee – say, someone who gets benefits through their spouse’s job – gets to work that much less. (I’m sorry that your boss is being absurd and awful about this.)

    1. NotBatman*

      Yes! It’s so strange, to the point where I wonder if a) the boss is new to management, b) the nonprofit doesn’t have many employees, and/or c) the health insurance offering is new. There’s no way that OP1 is the only employee with a spouse and kids on her insurance unless it’s a very small org.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        My husband worked for a small non-profit for years. He was ridiculously underpaid. He could do that because I earned about three times what he did and we were always on my employer’s insurance. The only way we were different from most of the staff is that I’m a woman. Many of the employees, including the CEO, were women married to higher-earning men and I would be willing to be that most of them were not using the org’s insurance.

      2. MsM*

        I’m definitely getting small org, no one in leadership has any actual managerial training vibes off this.

    2. Nobby Nobbs*

      Given that the boss apparently had trouble adjusting to one employee’s need to spend part of her life parenting? You’ve hit the nail on the head. I’d bet boss has just invented a fun new variation on a longstanding pattern.

      1. Plate of Wings*

        Oooh I didn’t even catch that the first read. Yes, even in a vacuum, having a disruption worth mentioning due to LW’s parental leave and ongoing parenting is fairly revealing about the manager. But in combination with the insurance thing this is a really unusual approach to work.

        Obviously we know that plenty of managers are lousy and extractive, but actually saying these things out loud and expecting LW to make these adjustments that are so very against their best interest is unusual.

    3. A Book about Metals*

      Also, having family members covered by health insurance isn’t some uniquely generous policy from the company, it’s pretty much table stakes for many full time jobs. It would be like saying we’ve given you a desk, we expect your productivity to double!

    4. KitKat*

      I also wonder about the gender dynamic. Obviously since OP is the only person with a kid on the insurance they can’t determine if there’s a pattern, but it is striking that the boss takes issue with her taking maternity leave, then takes issue with her setting time boundaries due to parenthood, then takes issue with her having spouse/kid on the insurance. What would the expectations look like if OP was male?

  15. HonorBox*

    OP1 – Congratulations on the new addition to your family!

    I’m going to answer this with an assumption that you’re not in a place where this is illegal…

    Depending on your relationship with your boss, I think you’d be perfectly OK going back and telling them that you’re uncomfortable with the directive to fundraise to cover your insurance costs because that isn’t part of your job description and those efforts take away from what you were hired to do.

    You might ask them to reframe this in their mind, too. If another employee’s spouse was covered by insurance and they had a cancer diagnosis that increased the costs because of ongoing treatment, would that employee be asked to fundraise to cover their costs too? While it doesn’t add another individual to the plan, it does potentially increase costs going forward.

    Your boss is likely stressed over the financial situation your organization faces. But the fact that the stress is being thrust upon you is completely inappropriate. You’re not a fundraiser, and now you’re basically being asked to sing for your supper. The organization offered the benefits it did, and while the costs have gone up because of life situations, that’s still the organization’s responsibility. I get that insurance can be expensive, but if the organization’s wellbeing is hanging in the balance because of $10-$12,000/year in additional insurance costs, this organization’s financial situation is more dire than maybe you’ve realized.

    1. MrsGreenJeans*

      In our case, my husband’s employer simply fired him when my cancer cost them more. Along with a coworker who had a preemie, and another employee who also had cancer. It’s no coincidence only those three people were let go the day after a company wide email that said they were going to “make painful choices” to reduce the cost of the company’s insurance.
      It’s a fundamental flaw in the US System. Companies trying to extract every penny of profit they can are financially motivated to cut off insurance for sick and disabled people.

  16. SBH*

    I had a similar situation to #2. I was diagnosed with Parkinson’s during the pandemic. I chose to be open about my diagnosis, because I have a visible tremor. I come in to the office for special events and meetings. I also step up to pick up extra duties I can do remotely, because my coworkers help me out with things that are difficult for me to do. They’ve been great. Not a bit of trouble. They might like to work from home, but realize that they are also fortunate that they don’t have to deal with a medical condition. The OP knows their company’s culture, but in my case, it was a non-issue.

  17. Christine*

    LW1: This didn’t involve a pregnancy, but I remember once applying for an intake job at a veterinary clinic, and the owner of the clinic stating that pay raises came only from employees bringing in more business. She got angry when I turned down the offer.

    I agree that you should think about what your organization means for you in the long term.

    1. HonorBox*

      Not to get too far astray, but how did that vet plan to determine how employees brought in business? A new patient had to drop someone’s name? What if they forgot? It seems like there’s a way to structure a bonus based on employee referrals, but not base pay raises on something that is incredibly difficult to actually measure.

      1. Not Fast but Furious*

        It sounded like it wasn’t “X employee brought in Y business so gets Z raise,” but more like “we got X new business from employee referrals this year, so we have Y amount to spread out in raises.” At least that’s how I read it. I can’t imagine it working any other way.

  18. HR Exec Popping In*

    LW #1, having higher performance standard because you have a family on their insurance plans is highly inappropriate! You employer has chosen to have a plan open to dependents (that is their choice) with a percentage of the expense shared by the employer (their choice). They can change that if the expense is too much for the non-profit to cover during the next plan but this will likely impact their ability to attract and retain talent. That is a business decision they need to make. Of course they can change your job requirements at any time and add fund raising responsibilities to your position. That is not illegal but it might be (depending on your state) based on the fact that your manager specifically told you that it is because of your family is on their insurance. Frankly, if your organization can not afford their insurance plan as designed because you had a child I would fear that the organization is in more difficulty than you are aware. I would consider looking for other employment because a) your boss is wildly inappropriate, b) I would anticipate your health care insurance benefit will likely change, c) I don’t think your organization is financially stable.

    1. Salty Caramel*

      Frankly, if your organization can not afford their insurance plan as designed because you had a child I would fear that the organization is in more difficulty than you are aware.

      Which is a damn fine reason to GTFO

      1. LW#1*

        So true although sadly because of this baby situation I am pretty scared of going on the job market

  19. Yes And*

    As a senior director overseeing benefits at a nonprofit whose health coverage expenses have exploded due to a few employees’ heavy use of benefits, #1 makes my blood boil. You do not blame employees for using their benefits. You just don’t. That is some evil-boss-level $#!&. LW1, your boss is doing it wrong. You owe them nothing.

    One thing and one thing only will I say in this boss’s defense (and it’s not that much of a defense, really, just an underlying explanation): This is why funders need to provide recurring general operating grants. The fact is you CAN’T fundraise to cover staff health benefits. If funders want people like LW1 to focus on the jobs they were hired to do to advance their orgs’ mission, they need to fund overhead. Stop this “every dollar goes directly to programs” nonsense.

    1. HonorBox*

      Your second paragraph is spot on!

      Ongoing operational costs grow. And expecting organizations to play a shell game to show that personnel costs are part of program expenses is not only difficult and disingenuous, it costs money because you have to pay someone to be your CFO so they can move that money around legally and in a way that satisfies the grant dollars…making the grant much less effective.

    2. Silver Robin*

      Oh your second paragraph….one of my dearest friends and I started our friendship bonding over funders generally only funding for a year and ignoring operational/capacity costs, leaving orgs scrambling to try and pay for anything that is not directly program related. We probably spent an hour just kvetching about that and have been close ever since!

    3. merida*

      Yes to all of this! Just reading the post title with for #1 automatically made me think of worst boss of the year nominations. He is wildly out of touch with business norms and human decency norms. May LW1 find a better place of employeement soon where they don’t nickle and dime you for the benefits in our compensation package!

      Also agree on the funding issue. I work in nonprofit fundraising and it’s frustrating to have so many resctricted grants and donations that are strictly for programs, not opperating expenses. Of course the thing is funders expect you to be able to pay your employees and pay the electric bill to literally keep the lights on, it’s supposedly a no brainer – but in today’s economy, especially with the current nonprofit funding choas, it’s really not. A few private donors understand that and will give unrestricted larger gifts (bless them) that organizations can use where needed most, but that’s almost unheard of for government grants.

  20. Darcy Mae*

    With respect to health insurance coverage, I think it’s something that’s an under-the-radar factor when it comes to hiring, especially in smaller organizations. In my current job, I made it clear that I would not need health insurance and negotiated a significant raise to my hourly compensation as a result (both the company and I came out ahead financially). I know someone whose company formally makes it financially advantageous to get one’s healthcare through a spouse. My brother-in-law has his employee get coverage through the Affordable Care Act and reimburses her for the cost of the premiums (plus a little extra for taxes) rather than paying as an employer. The cost to a small employer to provide health care can be so prohibitive that it’s understandable that they’re looking for workarounds. Not saying that it’s right, but one can understand why it gets factored into the “total cost burden per employee” when looking at layoffs.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      This isn’t limited to small companies. See AOL & the “Distressed baby” story

    2. HonorBox*

      I’m not a lawyer, and this particular situation may have been impacted my some of the specific details, but I was advised by a lawyer at one point that reimbursing someone for cost of premiums rather than providing coverage as an employer is not legal.

      1. Not Fast but Furious*

        I don’t see how that could be. An employer does not HAVE to provide health coverage. It’s a benefit, not a requirement, so reimbursing employees for obtaining theirs through the ACA or whatever, actually would seem generous, to me.

      2. Darcy Mae*

        My BIL technically doesn’t reimburse his employee for ACA coverage – they just set her salary initially at x + cost of ACA, and her annual raise is x + cost of living + merit raise + whatever amount premiums went up the previous year. So definitely reimbursing her but his business doesn’t cut a check to Blue Cross.

        In my case, when we were negotiating salary & benefits, my employer was willing to pay me significantly more in order to not cover me through his business. It’s a small company and the premium costs are significant for a small pool – so doing it this way benefits everyone. People hired either get coverage through their spouses or parents, or they do what I do and pay premiums individually from their artificially inflated salaries.

    3. commensally*

      It’s also an ongoing part of equity issues. A lot of underpaid nonprofit-esque jobs are still heavily white het female because they structurally assume you’re getting health coverage through your husband, who has a White Man Job. My job makes almost-living wage for a single woman who has minimal health costs, but the more dependents you add to the insurance the less feasible it is.

      Single moms have had to quit because the added health care costs were too much, and early-career men leave when they have kids (and we have “part-time career track” jobs that are great for entry-level or disabled people – as long as they get the insurance elsewhere, because you pay 2x the health care cost on 1/2 the salary and end up with about $50 a week take-home pay.) 90% of the staff are married-to-a-man white women on the husband’s health insurance.

      If you want to not offer dependent health care, then just don’t offer it. But accept that will change the demographics of who works for you even more. Don’t act puzzled about your “diversity problem” like my workplace does.

  21. Alan*

    For LW #3, given that Hannah and Gina are friends, Gina knows that Hannah doesn’t like you, and very likely why as well. Talk to Gina. I can’t believe Gina doesn’t have context here. She may not understand the depth of Hannah’s dislike, but I’m sure she’s at least aware of it.

    1. amh*

      I don’t think LW3 should, actually. If this was a non-work personal issue, maybe. But in a business setting, there’s no need to involve a third person in this. The chance of adding to whatever antipathy, if any, exists is too high and for no gain.

    2. Jackalope*

      Maybe, maybe not. I am personally unaware of most of the dislikes my fellow employees have, including the ones I’m friendly with. I would be u surprised if Hannah has never mentioned it to Gina.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Hmm, my feeling was the opposite. Given that Gina is encouraging the LW to apply, my assumption was that Gina knew nothing of this and honestly, that seems likely to me as it sounds like Gina is friends both with Hannah and the LW and…people don’t tend to criticise other people’s friends to them. Even assuming Hannah actively dislikes the LW, which we don’t know. She might like her fine but just think she wouldn’t be a good fit for the team.

  22. H.Regalis*

    I wonder if LW1’s boss holds himself to the same (bullshit) standard since by his own admission he’s the most expensive employee. He must be doing fundraising left, right, and center in addition to all his regular work to make up for how expensive he is! /s

  23. Academic glass half full*

    WAIT WAIT. Our HR (at a huge public academic institution) actually sent an email to all employees that our health insurance premiums were increasing this year because of people using the health insurance for GLP-1. I was so flabbergasted. WTF? I would have accepted budget shortfalls, rising costs, inflation, federal grant dollars. BUT THIS?

    In a former position at a smaller institution HR said our premiums were increasing because someone had cancer. AGAIN WTF?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Companies love to find ways to blame anyone other than health insurance companies for rising health insurance costs. Health insurance companies love to raise prices if you, god forbid, actually use them.

      1. Not Fast but Furious*

        ALL Insurance companies do! Ever had a car accident? Premiums up. Have teenagers who have car accidents? Premiums Waaayyyyy up. Need a new roof? Homeowner’s goes up. I hate insurance companies with the intensity of a 1000 suns!

      2. HR Exec Popping In*

        Some companies are self-insured. In other words, they pay the cost of all treatment but have an insurance company administer the plan for them. That means the company is directly paying more for the GLP-1 coverage. And that cost is huge. This is why many companies don’t cover it all or are considering stopping coverage. It is causing double digit increases in the expense of health coverage.

        1. Academic glass half full*

          It doesn’t matter. This is a health issue. This is why we have insurance, no? I take a very very very expensive medication daily. It is not on the formulary so I have a very special specialist visit every year to get re-certified that yes, I really really really need this medication and no other medication is as effective for my very rare condition. Would it be okay for HR to send out a memo blaming me for increased costs? Or the person who has a brain tumor?
          As an HR specialist do you think it is okay to “call out” and blame people who are suffering?

          1. Ruby*

            My old company used to pull the “20% of employees are responsible for 80% of the health care costs.” Like it was their choice.
            I worked with a very nice guy whose wife and child had significant health care needs. He never got mad at work except when they’d trot out this line.

    2. Anon for this*

      That’s how private health insurance works. Welcome to healthcare in the US. In the 40 years we’ve been married, we’ve been on my husband’s employer’s insurance for precisely two years: when he was doing a post-doc and I was working part-time and when I left my full-time job due to severe burnout and took a year to figure out what was next. The second of those was the last year he worked at a small non-profit (15 full-time employees. VERY small). It just so happened that I had major surgery that year. He then left and I got another full-time job. And his ex-employer’s premiums went up significantly on the next cycle. I’m sure it was in part due to my surgery. I had no sympathy for the org, which had allowed the CEO to bully him for years, but I did feel badly for the employees.

    3. WeirdChemist*

      Last year when our heath insurance costs went up, the insurance company also straight up blamed GLP-1 meds as well…. Shockingly they didn’t reveal the real reason of “but our CEO wanted another yacht”

    4. Alex*

      My health insurance just proclaimed that they would no longer cover GLP-1s. Gotta love US health care!

      1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

        And those are excellent diabetes medications! My skinny-skinny brother is using one for diabetes and I really hope the insurer lets him keep taking it.

    6. BigLawEx*

      Back in the law firm days, this came up with ‘satellite’ offices. Our pool was the small Los Angeles and Northern California offices, not the huge East Coast office. Two older, male partners had heart attacks, and premiums shot up, according to the office manager. They pushed it down to the associates, and that’s the last year I had employer coverage. Even before ACA, it was cheaper to get market based coverage, than share the pool with older men.

  24. AngryOwl*

    I feel like folks might be missing that OP3’s mentor *and* Hannah’s boss have, multiple times, told OP to keep setting meetings. OP should definitely give up, but I understand how mixed messages like that would be confusing.

    1. Not Fast but Furious*

      No. If you read it, Gina told her to once in the beginning to get info about the team. Gina and manager encouraged her to apply when position came open AFTER Hannah basically said, network with other on the team and then ask me questions (which OP didn’t do, or respond to). New manager told her to set up something in a few months, after the email. That was it. They did not tell her “multiple” times to keep annoying Hannah.

  25. just some guy*

    Responses to LW3 are activating some professional PTSD. My first job out of college, I was pretty sloppy at times, and it led to several managers not being willing to assign me work, which was a problem since it was a billable hours situation. They kept giving me Meets Expectations reviews and nobody ever said anything! I eventually figured it out, but it was during the long recovery from the Great Recession and it took a long time to get out. Has colored my entire experience of professional life since, and not in a good way, and I’m now 40. You gotta say *something* to people who aren’t getting it, even if you still can’t be very direct for whatever reason. Please, folks

    1. Not Fast but Furious*

      But… it sounds like you KNEW you were being sloppy and not doing the work and were causing the “no assignments” situation. Your managers sound like they were trying to keep you from being fired for underperforming and you don’t mention in your letter that you were suddenly let go for seemingly no reason, or am I misunderstanding?

      1. Jackalope*

        Did she know at the time that she was being sloppy, or is that a hindsight being 20/20 discovery? Most jobs have some balance between quick and accurate, for example, and if it’s your first job out of college then it’s hard to figure out what balance your employer is looking for. I know I personally can look back on past jobs and see ways in which I misread the room on that, but I had no clue at the time.

      2. Morgan*

        But… it sounds like you KNEW you were being sloppy and not doing the work and were causing the “no assignments” situation.

        It sounds like just a guy was consistently getting feedback that they Met Expectations but then not being assigned work because their work was seen as sub par, without anyone actually telling them why they weren’t getting work. Genuinely, this entire sentence you wrote here seems to be the opposite of what the comment you’re replying to pretty directly said.

  26. A. Tiskit & A. Taskit LLC*

    OP3: “I’m getting the feeling she doesn’t want to meet with me at all, at which point she should just say something to me about it instead of kicking the can down the road. ” You’re absolutely right on both counts!

    1. Hannah does not want to meet with you at all; she may dislike you for some reason of her own but she definitely doesn’t want to meet with you. She’s hoping that, if she keeps kicking the
    can down the road indefinitely that you’ll give up and quit trying to connect with her.

    2. She isn’t saying something to you because she’s immature, unprofessional or both. Frankly, I don’t think that even if you DID manage to force her into a meeting with you that it would do your cause any good at all. She’s made up her mind and won’t let you confuse her with the facts!

    1. Not Fast but Furious*

      She isn’t saying something to you because she’s immature, unprofessional or both.

      I’m not sure of that. The OP stressed that these little 30 min coffee chats were a significant part of the culture there, so it’s probable to me that Hannah doesn’t want to break with the culture, and is hoping OP would take a hint, which after over a year…. c’mon. Would a more direct answer have been nice? Sure, but if it was not the professional norm there to deny a colleague a meeting, I could see how Hannah felt like “OMG when is she going to stop sending more invitations, because I can’t tell her NO.”

      1. Zona the Great*

        Right. What is not being said is just as informative as what is being said. I often tell my direct reports that a non-response is the response.

  27. LW3*

    LW3 here – thank you everyone for your comments! Wanted to address a few points here – I had put this in my original letter (which was quite long, I don’t blame Alison for editing it!) that a few weeks prior to Hannah’s role opening up, I applied and interviewed for another internal role on a similar team that I did not get, for reasons that were initially not made clear to me. Hannah’s rejection email referenced that prior interview process, hence the “ineligible” part. But despite knowing that I wasn’t going to get her role, I was also encouraged by Gina and my own manager to set up a follow up meeting with Hannah to work with me and discuss my development progress towards becoming a good candidate for teams like hers. In hindsight, I probably should have confirmed with them that Hannah was on board with this (because she’s clearly not). I think I was viewing this meeting as more of a casual mentorship check in, while she was viewing it as me still being interested in her role.

    I also appreciate the insight on the rescheduling from my end! Yes, some of the reschedules were because I was sick day of or had an important meeting come up. I think what had bothered me most was that she hadn’t acknowledged the constant rescheduling from her end at all (whereas when I had rescheduled I apologized and explained why). It’s just not something I’ve ever experienced with coffee chats at this company, even from folks 3-4+ levels above me (FWIW Hannah is only one level above me).

    Regardless I’m continuing my job search both externally and internally (for roles on similar teams). Funnily enough Hannah’s role was just reposted, but this time reporting into her manager — even though I have a good relationship with the manager, it’s probably best for me to leave it alone.

    2. Mad Scientist*

      Thanks for commenting, LW3! I think a lot of commenters somehow missed the fact that you were encouraged to set up these meetings by your manager, not doing it just because you felt like it. I’ve had a similar thing happen where my boss wants me to meet with someone who clearly doesn’t want to meet with me, and it’s really awkward, and I’m sorry you’re dealing with that! Have you mentioned to your manager that the meeting fell through?

      I’m also really curious about these “coffee chats”… Are they in person? Do you actually drink coffee during them? Or is that just what everyone calls these types of meetings at your company? I’m obviously familiar with the concept of grabbing coffee with a colleague and catching up / networking, but if this is like a virtual video call or something, where coffee is not actually involved, I find that… interesting! (Not the point of your letter, I know, but I like to overthink the little things in life…)

    3. Hello God, it's me, Margaret*

      Assuming you’d be working directly with Hannah, definitely leave it alone.

  28. Crencestre*

    “…I was the first woman on staff to have a baby. I could tell it was hard for my boss, who is used to people being on call constantly, to adjust to my new work-life division.” Two things leaped out at me right off the bat!

    1. You’re the first woman on staff to have a baby but chances are that you won’t be the last. Is your boss going to treat every other female staff member who gets pregnant the way he’s treating you? If so, then there’ll definitely be trouble ahead!

    2. So…your boss expects you to be “on call constantly” and thus it’s now hard for him “to adjust to my new work-life balance” (?!) In other words, he expects you to be available for work 24/7 and is now incensed that you have the unmitigated nerve to expect to have a life of your own that doesn’t include your job. Think about the implications of his attitude – and what that bodes for you, your wife and your upcoming child.

    Your boss is a jerk and isn’t going to change. But you might want to take a long look down the road and consider changing YOUR job in the future – because it’s unlikely that this situation will get a whole lot better.

  29. LTR; FTW*

    My former company, a start up, underwent some financial stress after hiring a batch of new employees. It turned out that all of them wanted to use the health insurance benefit, and they all had families. Ka-ching!

    IMO the founder did not consider health insurance costs in his business plan at all, as when I started there a year and a half earlier they weren’t even offering health insurance as a benefit. I guess he was getting insurance through his partner and didn’t really consider it a “need”. When I was coming on board, part of my negotiations were that I needed health care or I couldn’t accept, so I kind of forced his hand a bit.

    Sure enough, when layoffs came, everyone with a family on the plan got let go. As I have a cancer history and am a little older, my premiums were probably the highest in the company. I’ll never forget when we were going over my (meager) severance agreement, and I commented that my COBRA costs were going to be astronomical, and the boss responded “we know!” in a completely judgmental manner.

    Like, excuse me for needing healthcare, bud.

    1. PT_permanent*

      “Sure enough, when layoffs came, everyone with a family on the plan got let go.”

      ^Holy heckballs, is this legal??

      1. Lady Lessa*

        But they could probably explain it away. (Just the way my former employer did with age discrimination, in the layoffs in May).

        I didn’t say anything because I was working toward retiring soon anyway.

        1. linger*

          lemme guess: since it was just the most recent hires that had kids on the insurance (the family plans were a recent addition to benefits), they were able to cite a “last in, first out” rationale as a figleaf.

  30. Alan*

    For #4, this reminds me of the adage to never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. It’s not exactly the same thing but I suspect that it’s not that they don’t appreciate you, they just were thinking of themselves and what they had to do, or had a brain f@rt, or were distracted. I know it hurts, I’ve been there, but unless this is part of an objective pattern, I would try to let it go. You could also go to the hiring manager and say “Bob told me he didn’t get the job” and then see how they react. That would give you some clues whether they felt you weren’t worthy of telling or they thought you already knew.

    1. JustaTech*

      Yes – what’s super important to you isn’t always obvious to other people.
      I had a project at work (I was an FTE) that I busted tail on for more than a year. When my part was done I handed it off to the rest of the team and was pretty promptly dropped from the project meetings. I had other stuff going on so I didn’t really notice, but I was pretty frustrated when no one bothered to tell me that the project had gone live (nor was I thanked for any of my work).
      When I emailed to ask if it had gone live the person who responded said “I didn’t think you would care, that was last year for you.”

  31. mythopoeia*

    LW #2: One other element that you might consider employing is using tone to signal that the medical reasons for which you have an accommodation are, in fact, disruptive and difficult for you. In your place, I might sometimes replace a bland “medical reasons” with an equally generic but differently toned response, like “I’ve got a whole medical situation going on” or (in a sarcastic tone) “super fun medical stuff” or (with the right audience) “‘health bullsh!t.” You don’t need to go into any details about what your medical situation is, but signaling your frustration or difficulty with it to a colleague can help them feel sympathetic toward you, rather than wondering “why does this person get out of RTO when I have to go in.”

    1. Letter Writer #2*

      That’s great advice, thank you! I’ve been worried how it will be received, along with when to say it at all. So thank you!

      1. Norm Peterson*

        Yep, my chronic constipation went away about 2 weeks into covid wfh. I had never thought it was something other than a weird fluke of my digestive system and when I had to go back 100% I found a new job rather than try to get an accommodation, because I didn’t want to have to talk about it and foolishly thought I’d have to give details to HR. Currently I go in 1ish day a week (although I frequently opt out since I’ll be fully remote again this fall) and it takes 2 days after to get back to normal. If I was ever in office 100% again I would pursue an accommodation because with over 5 years of WFH, I’m not going back to being literally full of shit. No one would look at me and say that I have a medical condition that means I can’t come to the office.

    2. linger*

      Mostly agree, but: *really* *don’t* use the “health bullsh!t” variant.
      Far too high a probability that gets read as “my accommodations aren’t really legit”.

  32. Frozen Shoulder*

    I have been the boss in #4 and don’t understand why the OP is upset. I don’t tell the hiring “team” when we extend an offer. Especially for C-suite, I tell the direct supervisor, HR, and that’s it. If my number one choice declines the position I want to limit the amount of people who could potentially gossip about the eventual hire being a second choice.

    After the whomever accepts, I probably will send a generic email to everyone involved in the process, saying thanks for your help … but I probably still wouldn’t identify the choice. For executive positions, I want to give the new hire time to notify their own networks and not have it “leaked” before they are ready to be public.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      Good example and this could be case. Unless the LW is a contract recruiter. In that case they should have been told an offer was made.

    2. Shipbuilding Techniques*

      I identify with LW4 and completely understand why they are upset. They invested a lot in the process but were left out of communications when it came to the upshot of having participated in the process. This comment provides good context as to why that might have been the case, though, and I hope they get the appreciation they deserve at some point.

      1. Amateur Linguist*

        Yeah, it’s like being involved in HR transcription and not hearing about the outcome, because although I’m asked to be privy to some of it for the purposes of generating notes, the actual outcome is kept confidential because I’m not on the same team or involved in the case, and it’s dealing with information that could be embarrassing to others.

        It depends on the actual case and the rep I work with, but I respect their judgement on that when it comes to not talking about something that can be easily turned into gossip.

  33. Long time listener*

    This ‘coffee chat’ culture sounds like a nightmare and a gigantic waste of time! Gina might just be busy and not have time to engage in constant sinks of social energy that go nowhere, or even create more work and asks of her.

    1. JustaTech*

      But it also sounds like this is an expectation in this company, that informal cross-functional and cross-level meetings are normal and productive.
      It certainly doesn’t sound like they are “social” – just that they’re a form of internal networking. Now, it’s completely possible that Hannah is busy enough that she doesn’t want to take the time for someone she already doesn’t like/ doesn’t see value in talking to, but at this point it sounds like it takes more time to keep moving the meeting than to just cancel it.

  34. Willem Dafriend*

    LW2, I have a hybrid work accommodation that’s more noticeable now that there’s an RTO mandate. I do use mobility aids and often do “look” sick, so people aren’t really surprised to hear I have accommodations, but my experience is that if you’re casual and breezy about it, other people will take their cues from you. The hard part’s when it’s new to you, so you don’t feel confident yet (I am still there rn), but I’ve heard it gets easier over time. Rooting for you!

    1. SBH*

      I’ve been dealing with my Parkinson’s for 4 years, and it has gotten easier. For me, it usually goes like this…

      “Since we’ll be working together regularly, I want to mention that I have Parkinson’s disease. Occasionally I may have a slight tremor or fidgeting, so I like to let people know, so they know they don’t need to be concerned for me. I also have a hybrid schedule, so if we want to meet in person, we just need to plan for it.”

      “Oh, man! I’m so sorry! That’s rough.”

      “It sucks, but it’s a manageable suck, and I have such a good support system. So, regarding your production request…”

  35. Conjunction Junction*

    Maybe slightly off topic, but gosh does it make me upset that health insurance in the US is considered compensation. Like when my employer sends me my annual “total compensation package,” it includes the dollar value of our (bad, expensive) insurance plan lumped into my pay. And at a previous job, my supervisor loved to remind me that I actually made 20K more because of my insurance. And sure, as an employer you are providing me with X worth of insurance, and that “compensation” is a broad term, but in no way did that health insurance money fill up my car, put food on my table, pay my rent, loans, car insurance.

    I really wish organizations in the US didn’t consider it compensation, but just the cost of doing business and retaining/taking care of employees.

    1. JustaTech*

      Historical tidbit to explain why it is this way: in WWII the government imposed freezes on salaries at companies to prevent people from being lured away from war-effort-related jobs into other parts of the private sector. (I don’t know exactly how this worked, legally, but it was a thing.)
      So, since companies couldn’t offer more pay they started offering other benefits, including the new-at-the-time health insurance.
      (This came up in my Health Policy class in grad school, where we also learned that a lot of the current health insurance and medical system in the US is based on a fear of Communism.)

    2. Mabby*

      Even better how about the US joining the rest of the developed world and not tying access to healthcare to employment status.

  36. PubIntAtty*

    No. 1- I had an eerily similar experience at a non-profit I worked at years ago. Please run, don’t walk, towards finding another job. Whether it is stated again or not your manager just said they view you as being too expensive for your output. No matter what you do that will never change- even if you bring in more $$ than you costs. And it will be why you do not get raises or chances to advance.

  37. mytummyhurtsbutimbeingbraveaboutit*

    LW4: my dad was involved in a similar search, and even though they knew for months who the replacement was going to be, they couldn’t officially announce it outside of the organization. So it could be a policy thing as well.

  38. Leenie*

    I’m one of those blunt Northeasters who has had to learn to temper my communication over the years. But even so, this reads like a pretty clear no to me –

    “there were already a few people in the pipeline for this role”

    That means you’re not on the list. So, although I agree that Hannah could have been more direct and should stop with the meeting rescheduling, I’m surprised by the number of commenters who think that her message was too unclear for the LW to pick up on.

  39. Long time listener*

    I should also add: I often get requests for coffees or time from junior people. I always take them if I can, if there are breaks in my existing work, time gaps between projects I can fill, etc. But if it is a bad time, and it will be a bad time for the foreseeable future (6+ weeks out), I will ask them to just put questions in an email so I can answer them and we can all move on quickly. It sounds like LP didn’t do this and kept asking for the coffee. I would urge young people starting out not to take things like this personally, and really come to meetings prepared with specific questions and asks. Nothing is more frustrating than when a junior colleague asks for your time and then comes with no questions to answer or issues to solve, or has done no research on the work at hand. Good luck out there everyone! :)

    1. Mad Scientist*

      I think it’s tough when your boss has asked you to set up a meeting with that person, though. I had this come up a few times when I was more junior and my boss asked me to meet with a specific person who didn’t respond well to my request for a meeting or simply didn’t have the time, and if my boss checked in with me later and found out that we just emailed back and forth instead of meeting, they would be like “Well that’s not what I asked you to do. I asked you to meet with them.” And at one job, we were required to find a mentor and meet with them regularly to discuss questions about our career or whatever. Frankly, I didn’t really have many questions, especially not ones that my mentor could answer, and by the second or third meeting, it was really hard to brainstorm discussion topics (I’d already asked all the generic “tell me about how you got to this point in your career” questions, we knew each other fairly well by then, and so we literally ran out of things to talk about…) These meetings were required, I couldn’t opt out of them, and my supervisor even wanted me to do more, but they really were not a valuable use of anyone’s time! By all means, be approachable if people do seek out mentorship, but… It’s not great for management to push for these kinds of meetings to happen often, especially when the people involved are not on board.

  40. mbs001*

    LW#1 – this is exactly why we should NOT have our healthcare run through our employers. This happens all too often — only in this case, they verbalized it to you. I worked with someone whose new husband had a serious illness and my firm was NOT HAPPY to have him on our plan. That factored into their assessment of her and any raises she would earn. Not to mention, her absences to assist her husband through this illness were amplified so added to their frustration with her. They were able to force her out on “performance” issues.

  41. Erh47*

    Think Hannah has inadvertently helped LW out there. Putting aside whatever it is about LW that has convinced Hannah she’d rather walk over hot coals (itself a pretty poor outlook for working on that team)… it’s an insight into Hannah’s managerial style and not an encouraging one. Even allowing for LW’s missteps, the level of avoidance Hannah’s engaged in throughout is poor on both the leadership and communication fronts. To the point of childish, really. I get that it’s awkward to turn somebody down, but that’s a skill managers require

  42. merida*

    For #1/LWI, I’m honestly still seeing red on your behalf. Are there any options for internal recourse? Do you have HR or a benefits coordinator? I’m thinking you might not if it’s a really small org, but on the chance you do, they should be interested to hear what your boss is saying to you regarding your benefits and performance. Or if there’s no HR but you have a board and if you’re willing to be a squeaky wheel about this… consider speaking with the director of the board. I work at a nonprofit and work with our board, and if we had a leader on staff who’s as wildly out of touch and discriminatory as your boss, I like to think they’d be very interested and appalled to hear about it and would make some noise to get it fixed.

    But beyond that, may a better boss and better company, one who doesn’t hold your family or benefits against you, be in your future!

  43. KaraokeGirl*

    LW #1 — I can’t help but wonder if there’s some under-the-surface bigotry going on because LW is a woman with a wife.

  44. Raida*

    3. My coworker has delayed our meetings for months

    “With encouragement from Gina and Hannah’s boss (who I also worked with on a different team), I took this to mean that Hannah didn’t have the time to meet with me, but to go ahead and apply.”

    Because of this, I would have a coffee with *those two people* and tell them you feel that Hannah’s made it clear she isn’t interested, go through the rigamarole of the coffee chat x 2, and her response to your application.
    Tell them that you applied because they encouraged it, and maybe in future they should check with the team managers before doing that? Since it seems Hannah is against you being in her team, it would have been better to know it’s not a good match and to not apply – or to apply with the understanding it’s likely you wouldn’t get into the shortlisting.

    It isn’t tattling, it’s just telling the people who were in a position to give advice that they didn’t have all the information needed to give that advice. It’s being helpful, and also being mature about “I was excited at the idea, I am moving on from this idea, I don’t want to be encouraged to do a thing that’s not actually possible, let me know if you think there’s other areas I should be networking with since this one seems quite closed off.”

  45. person who's about to go to sleep*

    Thanks for answering this particular set of questions today, Alison, I found your perspective particularly helpful for me right now.

  46. Morgan*

    Something that just clicked as bothering me about letter #3 and the discussion about it:

    A few people have commented that Hannah is communicating in what may be her “dialect” (regional, subcultural, etc.) that she doesn’t actually want to meet LW3, and that LW3 needs to recognize what’s being communicated and that it may simply not be the done thing for Hannah to be more direct.

    A few have suggested that part of the issue may be LW3’s willingness to reschedule and change plans when trying to ask for time with a person senior to them.

    The consensus across the board is that LW3 should give up on trying to have this meeting (these meetings, really, since now they’re not looking to join Hannah’s team but just get feedback on how they were ineligible).

    But… when Hannah reschedules these attempted meetings, she’s not saying “sorry, I can’t do that / that time doesn’t work for me” and leaving it to LW3 to try again from scratch. She’s rescheduling, i.e., moving the meeting to a new proposed time.

    If people are busy during that time or need to push it for whatever reason, it’s totally normal for them to ask to move it to a different time or to suggest a new time in the calendar software… I’m finally supposed to meet with her this week, and I just saw she’s moved the meeting to over a month from now!

    So the action LW3 actually has to take is to specifically cancel the meeting themselves – exactly the action Hannah is unwilling to take for whatever reason. It’s apparently too rude and direct for Hannah to do this – but it’s expected of LW3. Hannah’s avoidance may be justified in some commenter’s eyes because LW3 has had the temerity to reschedule the attempted meetings in the past despite being junior – so now LW3 should cancel entirely.

    It’s not like Hannah is noncommittally saying “oh, sure, we should totally have coffee… some time” and then not setting up a time or accepting any specific scheduling requests. She’s agreeing “let’s have coffee at this time and date” and then repeatedly moving that to new, specific times, always just a bit further away. This is less a case of LW3 having to stop trying with someone who’s not returning their cues; this is more like the kind of partner who wants to break up but doesn’t want to be the bad guy by pulling the trigger themselves.

    That’s one of the big parts of this that really makes it rankle for me, that I don’t think has been called out so far. Hannah isn’t just communicating differently, and LW3 isn’t just failing to pick up on hints. Hannah is trying to push the directness she’s unwilling to employ onto LW3 instead.

  47. Clarke*

    #3 – You have my sympathies! I’ve been in a similar boat applying internally, and I’ve found it to be such a struggle and really demoralizing at times trying to navigate all the unspoken rules and politics. I hope you land a good gig on a welcoming team that’s a good fit for you soon.

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