open thread – May 26-27, 2017

by Alison Green on May 26, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Doug Judy*

    How do you prepare for an interview that’s not really an interview because there isn’t an open position at the moment? I recently finished grad school and for one of my projects for class I interviewed the owner of a consulting company that directly correlated to my grad program. We only talked over the phone, but at the end he asked me to contact him after graduation because while he didn’t have any current openings but he’d like to get to know me better should anything open up in the future. It’s a very niche company that seems to be growing. I don’t really have work experience in what they do, just a passion for it and now an education in that field.

    I contacted him this week and he definitely remembered me, and we set up a breakfast meeting for June 8. He’s bringing someone who runs a new branch of his business too and asked me to send my resume. Reading about this new branch, I would absolutely love to be a part of that work.

    So, wise AAM readers, how do I prep for this? How do I dress? How do I make my case? I’d definitely be willing to start in a junior role and work my way up while I get my feet wet in this field. How do I convey that in a not desperate way?

    1. Stephanie*

      Where’s the interview? If it’s at his office, I would just wear business casual (or even just look polished). YMMV depending on your industry.

      I would have prepared answers in regard to your experience and schooling and how it could fit into the company. I’d also have some answers about career interests and maybe how it could fit into their company or similar companies (because he may be able to refer you to someone).

        1. Stephanie*

          I’d say business causal or like super polished casual if that flies in your industry (like button-up and nice jeans). Suit would be odd given the venue, but you want to look polished.

      2. Swimmergurl*

        This sounds like an informational interview. I wouldn’t wear a suit but would wear business casual. It’s more important that your physical appearance isn’t a strike against you, for whatever reason.

    2. SometimesALurker*

      It sounds to me like an informational interview, but if he’s bringing something who runs a new branch they may also be expecting to hire soon but not yet quite know what they’re hiring for. If I were you, I’d come prepared with questions about the company and the field that would be useful to have their perspective on whether or not you ever work for these people, and be prepared to talk about yourself, your short-term goals, and how your education has prepared you for them. Personally, I’d dress for a serious business meeting but not for an interview, which in my field means anything shy of a suit.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I have a more casual blazer I could wear. I think my “interview suit” would be too much.

    3. Lady By The Lake*

      Research their company and the industry and come up with a lot of questions. Show that you are genuinely interested in what they do. This isn’t about you “making your case” — you make your case by asking pertinent questions that show you have done your research and have thought about this. You shouldn’t “sell” yourself — let your interest sell you.

      1. GOG11*

        There’s a post from AAM about questions to ask in an informational interview. If you search the site for “informational interview” it should come up but I’ll post a link in a reply as well.

    4. Andraste*

      Good comments so far! I would also prepare to ask some questions that would get you some insight on their hiring process. What would you look for in an ideal candidate? What trainings or certifications do you look for when you’re hiring for X role? And AAM’s suggested question of what separates someone who is truly great in X role from someone who is just OK? See if you can get a head start on what they look for, so if there is an opening you can apply for later you’ve already been cultivating the type of skills they want.

    5. John B Public*

      Keep in mind that he doesn’t have any openings now, *and might not for some time*. So have a few questions about the industry in general, avenues to approach if they don’t have anything for you, and stuff that would be applicable beyond his company. This interview might not lead to a job with him now, but it might lead to something elsewhere, and who knows what the future holds?

    6. aubrey*

      I do these kind of meetings with recent grads – though for a startup, not a consulting company. And I have for sure come back later and hired them once we got new business and were able to hire new staff. We’re too small to have HR, so if I can find great candidates without having to publicly post jobs and deal with all that work on top of my regular job, I will!

      They’ll understand that you’re hoping for a job and probably would fit into the junior level without you needing to specifically pitch that. Think of it as a way to find out more about what they do and what they’re looking for, and demonstrate that you’re a smart person who is genuinely interested in the field and their work, as opposed to making your case for a job. Do be ready for some interview-type questions, but also more general questions about your career goals and what you like about the field.

      Personally, I also really enjoy talking to new grads and giving them advice on the industry I work in, and the startup environment if they’re interested specifically in working for startups. These people might be the same, so you could get lots of great industry advice if you treat it as a conversation more than an interview. Even if they don’t hire you, it’s a great opportunity to learn!

      I agree with the other comments that business casual is the way to go, since it’s more of a professional meeting than an interview, unless you know the industry is really formal or really casual. A little too formal is better than too casual, I’d say, but a suit would be out of place.

    8. Optimistic Prime*

      I’d treat it like an informational interview or a networking breakfast. Dress business casual, and talk about what you want out of your next job and in the near future for your career. I’d ask questions about the company and his team and be generally curious about that. Really, the goal of this is networking for potential medium- to long-term benefit.

    9. stevenz*

      Say what you said in your post. Convey your interest and enthusiasm, preferably without drooling. Talk about how your education matches what they do. Don’t assume anything, be informed about the company. Act like it’s an interview, because who’s to say it isn’t?
      Look “nice.” Other advice here sounds good, like a notch below normal interview attire. (I think it is significant that you’re meeting at a diner. That suggests they want it to be casual.)
      One concern I have about these kinds of interviews is how to convey interest and enthusiasm without coming on too strong, as if there is a position and you’re a top candidate. You have to play it by ear, and don’t over-think it.
      Good luck. And be prepared to pay your check, just in case.

  2. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve been at my new job for about 6 months, and it’s been going very well. The one thing I’ve been struggling with is learning how to use our software, which integrates with some other HP software that is also new for me, and the whole thing is really pretty complex and intricate, especially for someone with no prior exposure to it. I understand at a high level what it does, and how it works, but learning to use it has been really challenging. Yesterday I was finally able to set up and run some pretty simple tasks successfully, and then I was able to add to them to do some more complex transactions, and then this morning I’ve been able to figure out how to do some additional stuff too. I attended a training class led by another co-worker a couple weeks ago (with the intent that I’d eventually be able to do training classes myself), and it really helped things come together for me. It’s such a relief! I was beginning to think I was never going to get it. It’s a great way to head into the long weekend.

    1. Myrin*

      How wonderful! It really is a great feeling when you accomplished something, espeically something that took quite some time to actually learn. I think it’s such an intense relief to be able to think “Oh. I got this now”.

    3. Marillenbaum*

      That’s awesome! It can be so hard learning a new software, and it is a huge morale boost to feel like you’re finally getting it.

    4. Happy Lurker*

      Great news! Must be a huge feeling of relief. Congrats and have a wonderful weekend.

    5. Amy*

      You don’t mention the software but many local libraries subscribe to Lynda.com which has training courses for many many tech things. You might find what you need there, call or look at your local library’s website.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      Thanks all. :) For years I worked solely with Oracle, and got to the point where I could pretty much figure out how to do anything I needed to do with it, or if I couldn’t, where to go to find answers and then go from there. I like the satisfaction of being able to figure out things on my own, plus, I think you learn better and retain more that way too. It’s been a bit frustrating (not to mention humbling, lol) to not be able to breeze my way through this. But I was looking for new challenges when I left my last job, and I have certainly found what I was looking for. Heh.

  3. Folklorist*

    It’s your not-so-weekly ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!! Go do something that you’ve been putting off and come back and brag about it. Feel good about yourself going into the weekend!

    2. Marillenbaum*

      Packing! I’m moving on Tuesday (I didn’t have an apartment until Wednesday this week–yikes!) and I’ve still got about 5-6 more boxes to pack. But I’ve gotten a bunch more stuff packed so I’ll be ready for the movers.

    3. NoCalHR*

      Submitted all of my continuing ed credits to the two different professional organizations – not difficult, just time-consuming and now I’m caught up! And I have a 4-day weekend, so … Yay!

    4. Hellanon*

      Finished the worksheet for the class I’m subbing next week, and am having a cup of coffee before finishing the powerpoint.

    5. Sole*

      This is such a great idea – made an eye appointment I’ve been needing to make for weeks (struggling to see the board in class and blurry computer screen at work are causing headaches!) and I feel GREAT about getting my health in order:)

    6. Seren*

      Ironed some cardigans and a shirt that’s been desperately needing it for months. Advice on business clothes that don’t need ironed welcome.

      1. Emily*

        I like to stick with knits. Knit tops under knit cardigans. Much easier.

        I also have some synthetic sleeveless summer tops that never need ironing. Found them at TJ Maxx. Super cute under a cardigan.

        I banned button-downs (except no-iron ones) long ago. Not worth the hassle!

      2. LadyKelvin*

        We just take the wrinkled clothes, toss them in the dryer with a damp towel for 20 minutes then don’t let them go through the cool down stage. Hang them while they are still hot and no wrinkles. The washer/dryer in our current apartment has a wrinkle release setting where it steams your clothing for you and like magic the wrinkles are gone. You do have to hang/fold them immediately but it is awesome.

      3. Jennnnnnn*

        JCPenney! Wash and wear, baby! I’m tall and they even have washable suits in tall sizes!!!

        Not quite interview suits, but perfect work suits.

    7. Teapot Librarian*

      Finished writing an attendance policy and a building maintenance policy for my office. New employee starting on Tuesday is giving me an opportunity to shake things up a bit.

    8. Tess McGill*

      Finally made my son’s dentist appointment and dermatology appointment. Finally bought my little brother’s birthday present (thank you Amazon.com next day shipping!).

    10. Betty Cooper*

      I deleted the marketing emails that I never actually read. Next time, maybe I’ll actually unsubscribe. :)

    11. Rainy, PI*

      I just banged out the Plan for a report who was moved to my team recently. I’ve been putting it off because…mostly because I could, but the deadline is coming up.

    12. ECHM*

      This week I finished up the last of my wedding thank-you notes … all told, a total of somewhere between 400 and 450 notes!

  4. SometimesALurker*

    Hello fellow commenters, I need opinions. How would you handle a situation where someone is figuratively talking over you and it’s very grating, but they are also literally talking over you and that part’s okay, because they’re an interpreter?

    Several times a year, I do a presentation on our organization’s history to a large group of guests from an overseas organization we work closely with (different guests each time but same organization, and same interpreter). There are a variety of good reasons it’s usually me doing these talks and generally, I don’t mind doing it. But, the interpreter goes off on his own tangents, embellishes, says things before I get to them, etc. He is blatant and (I feel) rude about it.

    I don’t speak the language the guests speak, but the interpreter has made it clear he tells some stories he learned from a previous staff member who had a reputation for tall tales. For example, someone asked a question, I answered Y, and he said to me (in English), “No no, I’m going to tell them about Z,” and by the time I finished the sentence “Actually we know Y is true and it’s not clear whether Z is true,” he had already launched into the story to the guests, cutting me off (that day he was doing sequential, rather than simultaneous, translation, so it was clear he was cutting me off).

    I feel completely talked over, and I feel like there’s no point in my giving the presentation if he’s just going to do his own, less accurate version. He works for the outside organization, and the two people from our organization who are usually present don’t seem to care that he talks over me. They’re not in my department, so raising it with them directly would be a political move I don’t know whether we should make. They definitely know it’s happening — when he pulled “I’m going to tell them about Z” and the presentation was already over time, I said, “well, it sounds like you don’t need me here” as pleasantly as I could muster, and left. My boss tends to err on the side of extreme caution with interdepartmental politics, so I’ve already taken it farther than she would, and I worry she won’t be any help.

    It’s so frustrating when I’m standing there waiting to be able to continue speaking, and his interpretation goes on minutes longer than the bit I said. It gives me plenty of time to stew about the way he talks over me. Teaching is part of my job, so accuracy is important to me. For added unpleasantness, I’m a youngish woman and he’s a late-middle aged man, so there’s a power dynamic element to being talked over. If anyone has suggestions for how to stop this from happening, that would be great, but I’m also really looking for suggestions on how to grin and bear it.

    thank you in advance, and sorry this got long!

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Wow, that is incredibly unprofessional! Is this interpreter an employee of your company or a third party-provided service? An interpreter is supposed to interpret, not make his own speech! In either case, I would make very serious noise starting with your boss, and escalating as appropriate from there. It’s a huge ethical breach, and you would not be wrong in taking this up the chain of command.

      1. k*

        Yes! Remind you boss that this could be a liability for your company. If the interpreter says something that is untrue or inaccurate, it makes you and your company look really bad. The people listening to the presentation won’t know that you said something different. You can’t have this guy misrepresenting you.

      2. SometimesALurker*

        I agree but I’m not sure how to make noise on this issue beyond what I’ve already done, and unfortunately, I can’t tell whether my boss cares. As far as I can tell, the interpreter comes with the guests — he may be a part of their organization, or be a third party hired by them.

        1. k*

          Ooh that makes it hard. This will depend on the situation and the vibe of these presentations, but when he does this can you stop him and say, “Excuse me, can you please interpret what I actually said?” or “I need you to interpret what I said, I don’t want there to be any misunderstandings” Said professionally but firmly, and don’t continue if he refuses. If nothing else, it signals to the guests that something isn’t right.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Yeah, I agree with this script. You need to stop him in the moment and call him out on not actually… y’know…. interpreting.

          2. Jadelyn*

            Yes – catch it in the moment. Remind him “This is not a co-presentation that we are giving together. This is my presentation, and you are supposed to be interpreting the presentation that I am giving, not giving your own presentation.”

          3. Elizabeth West*

            I like the second one; the first one has too much room for sarcasm. I’d add “actually” to it–“I need to you interpret what I actually said; I don’t want there to be any misunderstandings.” k is right; call him on it in the moment.

        2. Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain*

          If the interpreter is their person or a third party, can your company provide their own (in addition) — just show up with them when you get there — and have your interpreter do simultaneous interpretation. Can you pre-translate your presentation on a recording and play it or provide a written translation? I would push this guy out of the middle as much as possible…like he isn’t even there.

        3. Optimistic Prime*

          Who is responsible for the vendor relationship with this interpreter? If he’s from a third-party organization (or even if he’s not), the guests you are teaching may be very interested in hearing that he is not interpreting your material correctly.

      3. Turtlewings*

        I completely concur. He’s not doing his job, which is *to translate what you said.* Adding any commentary of his own, especially without making it clear that it’s his and not yours, is a mind-boggling breach of translator ethics, as I understand it. Personally I would refuse to work with him.

        You wanted suggestions on how to “grin and bear it” — you absolutely shouldn’t be bearing it, but if it becomes unavoidable, I would suggest learning enough of the other language that you can say things like, “That’s not what I said,” “Stop saying that,” “No, that’s not right.” So at least the audience can TELL that he’s putting words in your mouth.

        1. SometimesALurker*

          I would love to learn Mandarin but I’m not doing it for this guy’s sake! I have enough on my plate.

    2. Myrin*

      Aaaagh, that sounds insanely frustrating!

      Just so I’m understanding correctly – the interpreter is not from your organisation? (I’m asking this because I don’t quite understand where the other two people from your organisation fit in – why would you need/want to raise this issue with them? They don’t seem to have anything to do with him, if he’s from a different organisation than all three of you?) If so, is there a way to contact an organiser/manager/planner in his organisation directly, without going through your boss?

      (I also have to say, your guests probably aren’t stupid – sure, some English one-word-phrases need to be reworded into a whole sentence in another language, but I’m positive they realise he is not telling them exactly what you’re telling them and as a guest, I’d find that hugely annoying unless the interpreter was an extremely good narrator and entertainer.)

      1. SometimesALurker*

        The other two people from my org are from the department the foreigners are the guests of. We (my dept, but usually me) do this presentation sort of as a favor to that department, but we do something similar for a lot of departments as part of our role at our org, so it would be difficult to stop.

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Start by talking to your boss about this problem. If she won’t escalate this then in your situation I would politely discuss this with the other people in your organization. The translator is not doing his job, which is solely to translate what you said into something the audience can understand. He is plainly hijacking your presentation and being rude to you. If you have support from your boss, refuse to work with this idiot in future. He isn’t going to change.

    4. Jessesgirl72*

      You say he works for the organization where the guests are from? I would take it up with that organization, or with your boss if you don’t have that ability. Explain that he’s not interpreting, he is giving his own presentation, and has been rudely open about that, and in doing so, he is spreading wrong information. Don’t approach it with your boss as “This guy is being rude to me” – even though he is- but as “This interpreter is preventing me from doing the job I am being sent to do, and spreading misinformation that may come back to negatively impact the company”

    5. Isben Takes Tea*

      From what I know of interpreting, this is extremely out of line.

      It’s there any way to reach out to your contact at the other organization and say the interpreter is embellishing your meanings inaccurately and at times refusing (!!) to translate what you said in honor of his own talk?

      You could present it to your boss that the interpreter is essentially and repeatedly giving his own presentation at these events and introducing stories that could harm your organization’s reputation (since you don’t know exactly what he’s saying), and it’s become something you are very uncomfortable with.

      Have you tried, in the moment, correcting the interpreter? “No, I need you to interpret what I said, and not change the presentation.” It would be SUPER uncomfortable for me, but you’re not being rude and unprofessional, HE IS. It MAY also help your cause if his audience can get a sense of what he’s doing…they may be your best allies in this.

      Ugh. Good luck!

      1. stevenz*

        Yes, recommend that he be replaced with another interpreter, “to put the company in the best light for our visitors.”

    6. MAB*

      He’s telling them mis-information? Or off the script? Yeah go to HR, your boss, hell I would go to the person organizing it too and let them know what happened last year. He is misrepresenting the company. That is a big giant NO.

      I work with interpreters all the time and if one did this to me I would be raising hell. If it makes you feel any better I am also a young-ish woman and have never had this happen to me.

    7. Casper Lives*

      Oh wow! I would be livid too. My sympathies. I think you should escalate as much as you feel comfortable doing. Since your boss is no help, I’d try to go above or around her. Even if you can’t change the interpreter, if you can get the message to the attendees that he’s not doing his job. That could help you if something negative happens later based on his misrepresentations. I’ve worked with interpreters in the past. AFAIK, they’ve never done this to me.

    8. TL -*

      That’s incredibly inappropriate! An interpreter should only interpret; you’re not really supposed to notice them.

      In the moment, I would just say, “no,” incredibly firmly. Interrupt him. Firmly. Pause after you say no then say, “I need to you translate exactly what I said and no more.” Be as direct as you can be.

      Right now, I would complain to your boss and your HR and whoever is in touch with the other organization. Just say simply, “The interpreter is, unfortunately, not translating what I’m saying. He’s going off on tangents and refusing to translate some of my words. As I don’t speak Language, I’m not comfortable using him; I have no idea what’s actually being said to the audience.”

    9. Lissa*

      Is this a professional interpreter, or somebody who just happens to be attached to the organization and knows both languages? I do a similar job to interpreting and this is so horrifying to me! We had entire lessons just on things like “you need to interpret everything correctly, even if it’s wrong, or you find it offensive” and if people can’t do that (some can’t!) it’s not the right job for them.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I’m so intrigued by this. Are you allowed to signal in any way if you think it’s wrong?

    10. SometimesALurker*

      Thank you all, for your perspectives, and for the validation that this actually is a big deal. It’s reassuring to know that my read on this is right, and he’s being wildly unprofessional. Sadly, I’m not sure that being firm or escalating the issue is going to work, and so I need a back-up plan if it doesn’t (although I am taking all of your advice to heart, and will try to solve the situation!). I don’t think this is a hill I can afford to die on.

      1. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Upthread, you said the other people from your organization are from another department, which is the department that hosts the guests. I would contact that department and let them know. It does not have to be a big fight – but you can say, for example: “I am happy to continue to do the presentations, but I do want to let you know that the interpreter has informed me that at times he chooses not to interpret my presentation and will relay his own stories instead. I hope you all still find value in our presentations, but I wanted to let you know that I am not sure what information is being imparted, and I cannot necessarily vouch for the accuracy of the stories that are not part of my presentation. I am not sure exactly how much of my presentation is being translated for your guests, but I hope they are not missing too much.”

        1. Jadelyn*

          Ooh, this is a really great script for that. Polite and professional but with major between-the-lines signaling of Something Is Wrong Here, and hopefully that will spur them into taking some kind of action.

      2. Dinosaur*

        Is this interpreter certified? If yes, report these incidents to the certifying body. Almost all interpreters have Codes of Ethics and the main tenet is “don’t misrepresent information”, so the certifying body should be horrified.

      3. calonkat*

        OK, so lets assume:
        1) You have no control over the interpreters
        2) You have to use their interpreters
        3) Their interpreters are going to misrepresent your company.

        That’s the conversation you need to be having with your boss. At this point, with those factors, if neither factor can change, then I’d just look at providing written information (translated by a professional service) with the information you’d ordinarily provide.

        The other option I can think of is simply to have someone speaking Language to give the speech (that you’d work with in advance). You’d be available for followup questions, but it would be pretty clear who was speaking on behalf of the company in Language.

      4. DJ*

        Stop and correct him mid-presentation? I mean if he’s interpreting in Mandarin and you don’t speak Mandarin, how exactly do you know he’s embellishing and adding and it’s not just people misunderstanding or adding on in their own minds?

    11. Wow.*

      I say this as someone who as worked as an interpreter, and who trains them: This guy is appalling horrible. It is absolutely vital that he not interpret for you or anyone else.

      It needs to be brought up with the company this guy is working with that you can’t accept his services as an interpreter because he doesn’t adhere to professional standards that are observed by the entire field.

      A lot of people don’t know how professional interpreters should work, and they end up accepting sub-par or disastrous services as a result. This could be where the other people from your organization

      I second what k suggested. Phrase it in terms of liability for your company because he is deliberately not communicating what you (i.e. your company) are saying to the audience. When you politely, professionally bring it up with the contact from the other organization, phrase it in terms of how you will require the services of an interpreter who adheres to professional standards of the field, who doesn’t add, omit, or change anything in your message. If outside statistics and arguments will be taken more seriously a Google search or Google Scholar search for “risk of untrained interpreters” might be helpful.

      In the meantime, definitely call out the guy when he goes off on a tangent with the phrases others have mentioned. Interrupt him with “Please interpret exactly what I said.” “Excuse me, please stop and do not add to or change what I spoke about.” “That is not what I said, so please interpret the words I said.” Repeat and repeat and repeat as needed, with fewer “pleases” as required. Do not feel awkward about it because, as Captain Awkward points out, you’re merely returning the awkwardness to the person who created it.

      (Also, a general PSA about interpreter vs. translator since different words are used in the thread comments: an interpreter works with spoken language and speech, a translator works with written materials and are generally the only ones who have time to use a dictionary.)

    12. SometimesALurker*

      Thank you all for your advice and help. I’m going to take it to heart and do my best!

      One of the best things about Ask a Manager and the commenter community is seeing the multitude of ways that people need to ask, and answer, variations on the question “how do I deal professionally with this person who is being unprofessional towards me?”

    13. Anono-me*

      Can you go to a professional translator who has strong knowledge of the interpreter’s culture and learn a phase in the other language, so you can firmly say something like “No. Interpret the correct information. Please.” in the audience’s language? That may startle him into compliance. It will also let the audience know that some of the stuff he is saying is him not you.

      The outside group may not realize that this man is hijacking the lecture. Why would the overseas organization go to the trouble to send people to a meeting to hear you speak, if the higher ups at the overseas organization thought the interpreter from their group could do the job as well or better?

      As a precaution, can you videotape your lecture? That will document that you answered “X” and the interpreter said “No. I am going to tell them the answer is ‘Purple’.”. He may also hold himself to a higher interpretive standard on video than he does now.

      Good luck.

    14. stevenz*

      My own Rule No. 1 of working with interpreters is to get on the same page about style at the start. Does he want to interpret by individual sentence? a whole paragraph? Will he tell you when you have said enough, or should you stop when you have spoken a complete thought? In that way, you can bring up the no-going-off-the-script discussion. You can remind him that *you’re* making the presentation, it’s your company’s presentation, not his, and the only way you can be sure you’re getting *your company’s message* across is to control the information.

      I would definitely bring this up with someone in the organisation because he’s making the company look bad and you’re getting stuck in the middle. If you can convince a higher-up that he’s a problem they can politely arrange for a replacement for him.

      Speaking through translators can be stressful enough without your translator going on an ego trip.

  5. Stephanie*

    I start my internship on Tuesday. Advice for being a good intern? My last internship, I wasn’t a bad intern, but I wasn’t the best–I didn’t quite get the whole concept of “Oh yeah, they still want a deliverable up to standards. Doesn’t matter how much they like you or if you go to the social things.”

    This is at a MegaCorp, if it makes any difference.

    1. Doug Judy*

      Work extra hard. Ask the people in your department what else you can do for them. Don’t be seen texting or Facebooking or having too many off topic chats with coworkers. Even if you see seasoned employees doing it, don’t.

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        This. My husband’s company hires an intern almost every year, and it’s always the one that worked the hardest and was the most professional.

      2. Casper Lives*

        Yes (thirded?). I’ve worked with a few high school and college interns. The best ones tried really hard, listened to directions, asked for clarifications or a repeat if they did not understand directions, and spent time with several people to get a feel for their work (after politely asking when a good time would be to shadow and learn from them). The worst intern was always on Facebook on his phone, complained that he had too much work, and asked inappropriately personal questions. Good luck!

      3. Amber T*

        Yep! Sure, it’s the employees’ job to give you stuff to do, but Employee Y might think you’re working on something for Employee X, so they won’t give you something, even though you finished the project for Employee X yesterday.

      4. FTW*

        Don’t feel like you will ‘win’ by working the longest hours; I work for a large firm and I don’t want my interns killing themselves… The work I give should take a full day, and if you are working to long on it, I might assume that you are working too slowly.

        So do strong work and don’t slack off, just make sure that your hours don’t go above the norm.

      5. Jerry Vandesic*

        Don’t wait until you are given something to do, ask for something to do. Be proactive. Focus on work, not things outside of work.

    2. LCL*

      Here is a good open ended question for an intern to ask that will help make connections and hopefully you will learn something from it.
      ‘Where does your job fit in the process of getting the work done?’

    3. k*

      Be a good observer. Look at the people who seem to be star employees, the people in a position you’d like one day, and your managers, and model your behavior after them. You can learn a lot about professional norms and what kind of expectations the company has that way.

      1. Hermione*

        And keep in mind that the person who seems most liked is not always the star employee. I’ve seen genial coworkers who have seemingly great conversations with people be very poor performers; they’re well-liked but exasperating to work with, and not who you want to copy.

    4. HMM*

      I run our internship program and I’ve found that the best interns are engaged and aren’t afraid to ask questions – to learn more about how things work, but most importantly, when they don’t know how to do something. At least at our org, we’ll happily work with you to get deliverables up to standards, but we need to know you’re struggling early on. I think it really depends on why you struggled with the work – was it just in an area that’s not your expertise and you were learning as you go? Were you slacking (be honest)?

      Anecdotally: I was incredibly impressed when I walked into the office one morning and saw an intern in our president’s office and she was telling him stories about the pictures framed on her wall. Our president is tough as nails, and a no-nonsense woman so it’s often hard to get close to her socially – in my year here I hadn’t ever been in her office alone with her! But this intern’s genuine curiosity got him there.

      1. S*

        Agree – Ask questions!! I’ve managed a lot of interns over the years. Sometimes people think that if they just listen and nod their heads, they look smarter than they would if they asked a bunch of questions. That’s completely backwards. Ask questions until you’re sure you understand what’s being asked of you. That will lead to better deliverables, in less time.

        Another suggestion: be open to feedback. Don’t get defensive. You’re there to learn, so soak it all in. Depending on your personality, you might have to don a slightly thicker skin. But that will pay off.

        1. S*

          Oh! Another thought. Or two.

          1) Read over your work before you hand it in. Seriously, one of the biggest peeves I’ve had with interns and less-experienced employees is seeing typos and rushed work. There will be occasions when time is of the essence, but if that hasn’t been communicated to you, take the time to double and triple check your work.

          2) Once you’re done, speak up. Say to your contact, “hey, I’m done with [assignment], what’s next?” Don’t assume they’ll realize you’re done and that your time is your own until they call on you again.

          3) Establish beneficial and appropriate “downtime” activities for when you’re done with a deliverable and haven’t been assigned a new one yet. Maybe there’s a long-term low-priority project you can pick up. Or maybe you can take advantage of the company’s online training resources. Or read presentation materials to get more familiar with your department. Agree to this with your contact up front, and you’ll have a much more productive internship!

          1. Emily*

            #1 is really good advice. I remember working with some interns in a previous job, and their typos really annoyed me (especially as an English major).

            I also second the asking questions. That’s part of being engaged in the work.

          2. Tardis*

            This is especially good advice where deliverables are written products. Some of our worst interns were those who took “first draft” to mean they didn’t need to edit themselves, perfect their arguments, or format a document before handing something in. Honestly, an intern’s idea of a final draft is probably closer to an organization’s idea of a first draft. Editing takes time and effort, and the less of it you push to your manager, the better!

      2. Stephanie*

        The last internship (which was a decade ago now at this point) it was a combination of struggling with a new skill (had to code in Python and hadn’t before and it took a little while longer than I thought) and not really getting what my higher-ups’ idea of a finished project was. Slacked off a bit. I got to my end of summer review and they were like “Oh. Um…we wanted more. We liked having you here, but we expected more. This is your first corporate internship, right?” I ended up getting “eligible for rehire” status, which was pretty much “She didn’t poop in a potted plant while she was here, but…”

    5. the gold digger*

      I have been put in charge of a college intern who starts in a week. I am dreading it. She won’t be here long enough to be any real help to me – it will take me longer to teach her how to do anything I do than to do it myself, which would not be a problem if she were a permanent employee, but is a problem with an intern. (She was not my idea.)

      What will make her perfect for me will be (and she is only a college sophomore, Stephanie – I know you already get these things) is if I don’t have to tell her anything (or tell her more than once) about

      * Coming to work on time and staying until the end of the day
      * Not spending all day on facebook
      * Dressing appropriately
      * How to write a professional email
      * How to do research to find answers by herself before she comes to me for help
      * How to check her own work (I was not happy when I had to copy-edit work a tech writer had put together)

      However- my goal for her is to have something resume-able by the end of the summer. That’s what I would focus on – getting a big project done (I hope they give you one), supporting people who ask for help, and asking them what you can do to help. Don’t be afraid to do the crap work nobody wants to do – they will remember you fondly as someone who understands that sometimes, copies have to be made and someone has to do it.

      Also, don’t suggest dramatic changes in how they do things (again, I know you won’t!) unless you are asked for your opinion.

      In addition, stay off FB, your phone, etc, even if you get bored. The optics, as you already know, are very bad. If you are bored, take advantage of the time to learn more about the industry.

      1. LKW*

        I second the “don’t suggest changes” until you have a better understanding of why things are the way they are. A fresh perspective is always good, but you need to have a base understanding of the industry and the rules and regulations that guide it. Industries like Finance and Pharma (and others) have an overwhelming amount of regulations to follow and what may seem like common sense idea might negatively impact compliance.

    6. Emma*

      Dress professionally, like others at your work, or even a touch nicer. If it seems like you have a lot of down time, mention that to your supervisor and ask if there are any longer term tasks that you can do if you finish whatever task is assigned, so that you don’t have to keep bothering them asking for additional work. Or just ask how they’d like for you to handle that.
      Don’t use your cell phone or social media, unless you’ve left your office (like for lunch).
      If you don’t understand a task, ask questions, but try to save all of your questions and ask all at once (vs 5 interruptions in an hour or something).
      Be friendly, but don’t spend too much time chatting when you should be working, especially if this was a problem in the past (“hi Cara, how was your weekend? Oh, mine was good too. Well, I’ve gotta get back to those TPS reports now!”).

      And it’s awesome that you’re trying to improve! Go you!

    7. Morning Glory*

      Make sure to ask questions if you don’t know how to do something – but always try google first for software or other tech-related questions.

      Don’t assume that anyone is keeping track of your workload: speak up if you run out of work, but also speak up if you get so many assignments where you may have trouble making commitments.

      1. Avalanche Lake*

        I want to tag on to the recommendation about asking questions if you don’t know how to do something (but do your research first). Totally second that. But there are two ways to ask questions right up from:
        1. If you don’t understand the assignment, definitely ask about that in the moment! Sometimes it’s hard to figure out what the assigner is looking for as a finished product–you can ask what that might look like, or for them to point you to examples of similar successfully completed projects. (The key to the second part is to know what resources are available to you–if you know there is a shared drive that has powerpoint decks on it, but you need to know if it’s more like Type A or Type B, ask that.)
        2. If you’re not sure how to even start the project, think quickly about a couple of steps you might take, and say that to the assigner. Stating your plan of attack shows that you are proactive and thoughtful, but also enables you to get immediate feedback or course correction. Something like, “You mentioned Bob had done similar project Y before, so I’m first going to email him and ask for the final deck he prepared on that. Then I’m going to research files M and N. Does that sound like a good way to approach this?

    8. Lurky McLurkerson*

      One of my former employers hired summer interns every year and last year the stand-out intern was hired to continue on. He is a *rockstar* at the firm despite his inexperience and low status on the totem pole. Why? He has a fantastic can-do attitude, doesn’t mind doing grunt work, and is the first person to offer to help with a project, no matter how big or small. I know the grunt work can be a downer sometimes, but you have to work your way up– prove that you take the insignificant tasks seriously and want to do it right, and you’ll gradually get more substantive and independent work.

      1. Lisa*

        While a can-do attitude is important, be careful in taking on traditionally female tasks if you are a woman. Things like making the coffee, and doing photocopies and watering the plants.. they’re all useful tasks but they aren’t the things that will make them hire you and they can influence how you’re perceived. Work hard at the stuff that matters and make sure that administrative tasks are spread equally among all the interns, if they are required.

    9. NoNameYet*

      (I’m in a creative field) My standout interns are the ones that make an effort to solve a problem first, but aren’t afraid to approach me when they can’t. I’m more effective helping them when I know what they’ve already tried and can get them to the best solution faster. And the interns tend to remember the solutions better, too.

      A good way to mildly annoy me is showing up late or staying late. I think sometimes interns assume it shows they are enthusiastic about the internship when they stay late– often it gives me the impression they’re struggling with the work or time management as a whole! Your effort will naturally show your enthusiasm.

    10. Master Bean Counter*

      Ask questions! We’ve had an intern in our department this week and everybody loves to explain things to her. It makes them feel like she’s really trying to understand what is going on and showing interest.

    11. Delta Delta*

      If you complete a task, go to the person who gave it to you (or communicate with that person however they best like), let them know it’s done, and ask for more work. I’ve had a lot of interns over the years, and the ones who stand out as the best in my mind were the ones who used their time well and who were vocal about needing more tasks. Sometimes it’s easy for people to get busy and forget to give assignments to the interns, which leads to the intern with nothing to do – which is not what you want since you agreed to intern there – and leads to the employer thinking (probably incorrectly) that the intern wasn’t terribly motivated.

      Also, don’t ask to change the dress code. (and if you haven’t read that AAM post, it’s worth it)

      1. Erin*

        Also show initiative with simple tasks. Like if the trash is full empty it. If someone left something in the copier and you know who it’s supposed to go to return it to them. If the sink in the break room over flows get a mop, don’t wait around for someone to tell you to get the mop. It’s common sense stuff.

    13. Jadelyn*

      Remember that you can only calibrate your behavior based on what you observe of the employees up to a certain point. An employee can get away with slacking sometimes, especially if they’ve got a track record of good performance. My manager doesn’t mind when I make personal calls from my desk for appointments and stuff, because she trusts me to make sure it’s not impacting my work, but that’s something I’ve had to earn over time. But as an intern, you won’t have time to earn goofing-off allowances (or dress code violation allowances, or whatever), so slacking off or dressing down “because I see the employees doing it!” is just going to get you in trouble. Whether it’s fair or not, as an intern, you’re not an employee, and you can’t expect to be treated the same as one.

      Also, the phrase “Is there anything else you need help with?/Is there anything I can do to help on [thing]?” is your best friend. That question got me from “part time temp to do filing” to “full-time credentialed professional in this field” because I kept asking and people kept teaching me new things. So if you run out of work, make the rounds – start with your supervisor, but if they don’t have anything to give you, ask if they’d mind you offering your help to coworkers as well. If they give you the okay, start asking other people what they need help with. This can be a great opportunity to get some cross-training in areas outside your main internship focus, too.

    14. JulieBulie*

      You probably already know this, but because it’s been a problem around here (where I work) a couple of times I’ll mention it: if they give you an email account, check your email and don’t ignore meeting invitations, etc.

    15. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Dig as much as you are allowed into historical documentation such as the Shared Drive used to house common documents. Do as much outside research as possible and always take notes–Always!

      I began recognizing patterns and themes. I was in a public transit admin internship where I began noticing what the major projects were. Soon, I had a dedicated manila folder labeled, for example, “I-25 Bridge Project” where I kept all notes, emails and attachments.

      Another thing that always seemed to impress my bosses was that after almost every meeting or phone call, I made a quick anecdotal note to myself and put it in a folder for organization. At the end of each day, before you leave, spend 10 minutes reviewing your anecdotes and making more as needed.

      Join professional organizations for the field you are in as most have very cheap membership dues for students. Read the newsletters you get.

  6. Outside Looking In*

    I’ve had a lot of people tell me they think I’d do really well in the setting of a college or university. It’s something I’ve definitely been interested in. Has anyone here worked in the office setting of higher education who can give me an idea of the atmosphere in that environment?

    I do administrative office work, thinking of moving into development/fundraising. I applied to colleges in the past but was passed over for people who had experience in that setting already, which I don’t. Anything I could do to help me break in if its s path I want to take?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It took me a very long time (years) to finally break into higher education administration, and that was with a Master’s degree in progress in the field, and several years of relevant student-focused nonprofit work under my belt. There’s just a lot of competition for those jobs.

      Do you have development/fundraising experience already? It’s such a specific skill set that involves sales and communications and being able to directly ask people for money, that if you don’t already have that experience, your better bet will be to apply for administrative office roles within that department, rather than development-focused roles.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      21 years experience working in post secondary in Canada. The environment is much more casual than the private sector. Being enthusiastic about continuing your own education is a huge plus. I got a job in one institution because I was taking courses there part time when a job came up and that, along with the cultural knowledge and familiarity made up for the technical skills I was weaker. Tuition reduction or even full waivers are a huge perk of working in this environment.

      Another plus is I found a lot of the staff I worked with were younger than me. Helps keep enthusiasm alive and going even for a cranky old cynic like me.

      The downside is that money is always tight due to limited funds. I was in IT so I can’t really give anything concrete regarding fundraising other than it’s a crucial part of the operation for a college or university.

    3. NP Admin*

      I have worked in the university setting both in the development setting and the more academic setting, although not exactly doing office admin work. My impression is that the development area had a much more corporate-like culture than the rest of the university, with fundraisers serving as the sales team, so to speak. I saw a lot of turnover in fundraising, and I was told that burnout is kind of just an accepted part of the job. Of course this may vary from institution to institution. My experiences in the academic setting are that it is much more laid back, you get to work with some really brilliant people, and you have to be good at navigating tons and tons of beaurocratic red tape. I actually think development is a nice bridge between the private sector and academia.

    4. Your Weird Uncle*

      I think I’m a lifetime academic admin! Welcome to our club. :) I work in finance (research grants) currently but have had lots of experience in general admin in higher ed.

      Pros of academic work – at least where I am! YMMV.
      -easy transferability between programs, departments, etc.
      -once you’re in, you’re in (for the most part)
      -good benefits

      Cons of academic work (in my experience across the board):
      -dealing with particularly difficult people, such as faculty who have only ever worked in academia
      -lots and lots and LOTS of bureaucracy, redoing the same work over & over, etc.
      -lots of departments are downsizing due to the current environment in higher ed (budget cuts, etc.)

      My advice to break in is to start off in general admin work. I did that, and I know lots of other folks who got their start as a general departmental admin and were eventually able to slide into roles that were more specialized. In my last role I was able to try on a lot of different hats, and after a couple of years I found out that I love – and am really good at! – research grants and budgets. (As a high school math flunkie I never would have guessed!)

      In my experience, development and fundraising always have roles open BUT they are grueling and have high turnover. I think it can be gratifying work, but I’ve never considered it myself as I would find it exhausting.

      I would also advise you to look into departments that are growing quickly, such as engineering and computer sciences – in my experience, their increased demand means they are hiring more aggressively and are willing to train folks who have potential but maybe don’t have the particular experience. I’ve also found that humanities roles are downsizing faster, so you may find yourself doing the work of two people.

      I hope that helps – and good luck! It’s great work and I really enjoy it.

      1. BackAgain*

        OP, I’ve been in higher ed for 17 years and this sounds like solid advice based on Your Weird Uncles experience.

        Definitely look for departments/programs with good funding sources. This information is usually easy to find on-line because we are thankful, proud and love to promote well-known funded programs. Many public entities will welcome you and provide tours and or sit-down informational visits.

        People are a universities most precious resource and if you are lucky, you’ll land a job at a diverse, thriving campus. Hopefully you have good people skills and if not, hopefully are open to growing in that area. My experience in higher education includes the worst ever on the job experiences in my life but also many best ever experiences.

        Why have I stayed? I believe in our mission and the people. Plus, the benefits (including a guaranteed pension) are quite good.

        The department I’m currently in has limited funding which may run out if more grants are not received in the next five years. I could easily make a lot more $$ by transferring to another department but I love my current program, co-workers, population we serve, etc. We we going through a lot of changes that were all for the good. (Sorry for being vague, just don’t want to include too many details) I feel like I’m thriving personally and professionally as well. After my most recent promotion, there’s probably not any more upward movement for me either so eventually I will move on.

        Best of lucky to you, Outside Looking In!

    5. A Beth*

      Money’s not great on the academic side (ie admin in an academic department) but it’s probably better in business offices (ie advancement, IT, dining/retail). There can be a lot of disparity between classes of employees — even disregarding faculty (which is impossible to do on a campus, let’s be real), there are huge differences between, say, exempt vs non-exempt staff or admin staff vs dining or facilities. Even within a single role there can be pretty frustrating differences across departments. Which is maybe the same everywhere, but when institutions start talking about inclusion and equality as selling points it can seem like a slap in the face if you’re not in a department that values you.

      That said, I have spent my whole career in higher ed and I don’t know that I’d be able to leave for the corporate world now. I like being in a learning environment, the benefits can be really good if you’re looking to get more education for yourself or your partner/kids, and there tend to be a lot of cool cultural opportunities (art, music, sports, etc).

    6. Cruciatus*

      It’s so hard to say. It will depend on the university, and even the department within the university. I worked for a school within a university as an administrative assistant until the end of April. Like Not a Real Giraffe, I also have a Master’s (though I think my previous experience at a smaller school was more important). I moved to a non-administrative role 50 feet down the hall and am so much happier. Not necessarily because it’s non-administrative, but because my former department was just too stressful. And if the boss was stressed, everyone had to be stressed. I seriously got scolded for looking out the window once (at cars sliding down a slick hill in winter) because “we don’t have time for that!” It was maybe 20 seconds of looking out the window. My new department just had a pizza party for my birthday. Well, they ordered pizza and we all ate together and it was lovely. Everyone is more understanding here and calm. I realize that’s probably not too helpful–but my main point is that it depends on so many factors what the environment will be like. One annoying thing about higher ed, at least where I work, is they are constantly changing something. We recently changed programs the faculty use for their classes and students, the main software for students and staff regarding scheduling/advising/choosing a major, etc., and now they are going to change our employee information system (how we log our hours, how we find HR questions). We’re all having change fatigue. And this year we’re getting paltry raises. Maybe 1.25% which is just a few hundred dollars for me (though I just got a pay increase due to switching to this job so I’m trying to roll with it).
      What I would say is just to continue to apply to jobs you are interested in/qualified for and see what happens. And once you’re in the system, it’ll be easier to get another job for something that may be what you’re more interested in (not super easy, but you’ll be a known quantity by then). When you interview you can ask questions about what the atmosphere is like, what your boss is like, etc. Remember, you are interviewing them back to see if you even want the job. Overall I’ve been happy working in higher education and I’m even happier than I was 2 months ago because I found a job on campus that fits me better in many ways, including who I work with.

    7. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I can’t speak to development/fundraising as I have no experience in that area.

      However, I worked in industry for 20 years, got laid off, and then moved into academia. There is no comparing academia, especially in a role as an administrative/office work (read secretary) type person. They are very different. Some faculty can be *very* elitist and have a strong sense of entitlement. Some faculty look down upon all staff (even high level staff). Some faculty do not want to follow the rules because they believe that they are above the rules and don’t take the time to understand them. In many (if not most) cases, if there is an issue between a faculty member and a staff member, the faculty member is always right. I would not recommend that anyone work as a low-level staff person at a university unless you are a “yes person” and are willing to just do what you are told or don’t have any drive or ambition or can’t keep your mouth shut. Part of this happens because faculty often have tenure and it is very difficult to fire someone with tenure so they can speak out without any consequences.

      Of course, YMMV, it differs from university to university, department to department, and even dean to dean (within the same department).

      Good Luck

    8. Hermione*

      Often it just takes awhile to get in from the outside. I’m in a college town, and when I was switching from my last position at a uni as a dept. admin., it took about a year and more than 50 applications for me to find the right fit in a position in central admin (registrar). Part of that was that I was comfortable in my then position, and that I really wanted to be at this one university known for prestige, plenty of career opportunities, and great pay.

      For a lot of places, it’s far easier to internally transfer than it is to get a foot in the door. If you’re having trouble getting into development because of a lack of experience fundraising, I would apply to positions that would be a natural fit for your current experience (department admins, executive assistants, program coordinators, etc., with bonus points if they have some development, budgetary, or grant proposal duties), and then try to transfer in a year or two. I would also maybe look for volunteer opportunities in fundraising outside of the university, or attend/volunteer to work some of the university’s big fundraising events throughout the year to make a good impression.

      Good luck!

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I’m new to higher ed, and in development — I got in at a high level because I have a ton of relevant experience and our team’s specific role is quite specialized. Our admin staff tend to be recent(ish) grads, but it seems like most of them move up or out after a couple of years.

        OP, I don’t know if it would be worth it for you, but if you’re having trouble “breaking in,” I’d look at the lowest-level job you’d be willing to take and try it that way.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Oh yeah — and I love it, even more than I expected to. It turns out, I really appreciate being part of a large institution, and the bureaucracy and internal politics are nothing compared to what I’ve seen at other nonprofits.

      2. Emmie*

        This is exactly right! Apply in your current expertise area. Build your experience inside the uni and you could eventually transfer. Hermione is right about the application volume. Don’t give up.

    9. Ghost Town*

      Do you know why they think you’d do well in an academic setting?

      If you’re interacting with faculty or parents, they can be difficult and resistant to understanding why something can’t just be done (usually b/c of university policy or federal regulation). Cultures can vary widely between offices and a lot will depend on your immediate supervisor.

      If the uni is a big fish employer in your pond, it can be hard to get in the door, but once in, transferring around can be easier. My experience with my university’s application system is that it is very automated and bureaucratic, and while it helps to know someone working at the university, it has to be the right person in the right position. I couldn’t talk up my friend for positions in other, unrelated departments, for instance.

      I broke into student services/affairs, on accident, really, because I had a Masters in the subject area and some experience and familiarity with their specific program. Turns out I liked it, got a graduate certificate and am pursuing a career-related Masters. I’ve also moved up and out of my old office (3 weeks ago).

      At this university, a big fish employer in a small pond, there are a ton of alumni working in positions for which they are way overqualified. Like MBAs in secretary-equivalent roles. So, as unhelpful as this is, keep plugging away. Apply for a range of positions and understand that it will take time. It took my husband about 1 – 1.5 years of applying to get in at the university. It took a friend of mine, and alumna, about 2 years to get to a full-time, exempt position, and then easily 2 years of applications to get into the office she originally wanted. I was applying for positions to advance for about 2 years, myself.

    10. Iris Carpenter*

      Read http://suburbdad.blogspot.com/ “Confessions of a Community College Dean”. You will find a wealth of information.

      However, without university level teaching experience, and probably a PhD, you will always be a second class citizen, and be limited in how far you can progress.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Ha – my lovely coworker has her PhD and several years of teaching experience, but her life as a uni admin is still as a second-class citizen. It is a problem!

        1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

          Agreed! Unless you are tenured or tenure track faculty, you will be a second-class citizen.

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Pretty much. Even the clinical faculty with PhDs are second to the tenured and tenure-track faculty. I think it’s because they don’t have a research/publish requirement, and research and publishing is the king.

    11. AnotherAnother*

      I’m in Canada in higher ed so somethings may be different. It is really common up here for people to start on contract. It’s also really common for people to take big pay cuts over the private sector (if you have specialized skills – think IT, Finance, etc.) to get in – less so in true admin jobs which sometimes pay higher than similar private sector jobs at the beginning but raises are small. I believe the work life balance makes up for it but I know I took a huge pay cut. Once you’re in a full time permanent / continuing job it’s easier to move around. Jobs are posted internally first so lots of really interesting jobs never have any external candidates considered. Having a masters or working on one helps.

    12. tiny temping teapot*

      Start reading Nonprofit AF for sound advice and great, great discussions on fundraising and development.

      I bet there’s a Linkedin group for fundraisers/development professionals in your area – they will link to professional associations that offer classes and, of course, networking. There are also specialized job boards when it comes to fundraising for academic institutions you might want to check out.

      Admin work is a great way to break in.

    13. TL - DC*

      I’m not sure what level you are at, but in development offices I’ve worked in there are admin assistants to high level fundraisers. Those folks definitely can move up into other roles once they’re there, and you would also get a feel for the type of work development is and see if you like it. At my organization, which size and structure-wise would compare to a university although it’s not higher ed, we also have people who do administrative functions for the development office, like operations or HR liaison stuff. Look into development/advancement services or development operations.

    14. Bess*

      Depends what they mean when they say they think you’d do really well, and how well they know the environments they’re talking about. I myself got my previous and current higher ed jobs because I was at school getting a graduate degree, and found side student jobs doing work related to my previous career that turned into staff positions. I LOVE working in higher ed, because I get to help faculty (directly) and students (indirectly) without having to teach. But it has its definite cons like anywhere else.

      Development tends to be a much more polished, salesy area of higher ed than other places, if you like that kind of environment. If you’re looking at an area of student affairs, it might be pretty tough without either a graduate degree in said discipline or a lot of closely-related experience. If you have admin work you might more easily get work in a specific department as a general admin–wrangling faculty at that close a level will have its challenges. I DO think it’s much easier to get your foot in the door somehow than being a completely new external hire. There’s usually an internal hire or two in the mix for a position and idk why, but higher ed seems to be VERY inclined to hire internally and only hire externally when nobody wants it. But that’s been my experience and I’m sure it’s not universal.

      You do have to be willing to put up with a lot of red tape and some processes that move more slowly than you can possibly imagine (hiring is one of them!), and some lifers who stopped caring 25 years ago, and there can be faculty/instructors who view themselves as the be-all end-all and if you aren’t on the academic track, you might get treated at times as if you don’t have expertise or advanced education or experience like they do. But you can deflect that and work through it like you would any other weirdness in an environment–and I think it’s less and less common as we move away from ivory tower mindsets. And you’re surrounded by highly educated people, and at a university likely a lot of facilities and infrastructure, expansive libraries, and you’re part of a community from the get-go, and lots of ways to get directly “involved” if that’s appealing to you.

      There is the general anxiety of what higher ed will look like in 20 years or so, but that’s lots of fields, tbh.

    15. HRChick*

      I work in a university. There are pros and cons to everything.
      I love the people I work with.
      But, I find faculty very difficult. Not a week goes by where I am not accused of some ridiculous conspiracy theory. And there is a LOT of favoritism towards faculty, although they will say otherwise. Faculty have a lot of power in the decision-making of the university and they tend to hold things like raises and office space hostage before approving vital business decisions. So, a lot of the upper administration’s decision making is “how will faculty feel about this” rather than “is this good for the university” and a lot of times, staff ends up suffering instead. /rant
      But, there are good points here, too. Free college classes, for instance.

    16. Debbie Downer*

      In my admittedly negative experience, I found working in a college to initially be quite fun. I found it hard to get my foot in the door, but was eventually hired when a department manager recognized the name of one of my references. (My reference worked with his wife at a company where I previously had a long-term temp assignment.) So that was how I got my foot in the door.

      For the most part the students were very enjoyable to work with, but there were some faculty and a couple of administrators who were a bit difficult. (A handful, who were admittedly geniuses in their respective academic fields, were quite demanding, rude and condescending and we had to put up with their disrespect.) However, the worst parts of working in academia were the miniscule pay raises that failed to even keep up with inflation and that did not reflect the increased value I brought to my work as I mastered it and improved upon it.

      Also, it seemed to me (that at the college where I worked) almost everyone who worked there (with the exception of faculty) was laid-off after a period of anywhere from four to ten years if they didn’t resign first. Conspiracy theorists think it had something to do with keeping personnel expenses low by not letting people build up any seniority or qualify for their small pensions, but who really knows?

  7. ali*

    How do you all manage to find motivation to get your work done when you are completely bored to tears (and yet have to track your time in 15 minute intervals)? Not only is there not much work right now – definitely not enough to fill 8 hour days – but the work itself I started getting burnt out on about 3 years ago.

    The time-tracking is relatively new, as of the last month or so, so I think that might be where I’m really struggling? The work will always get done, but I find myself tracking time during the work day and making things up and then actually doing the work over the weekend, which is not a good thing and not sustainable.

    1. Stephanie*

      This sounds hokey, but pretend it’s interesting (“This is the most exciting TPS report ever!”). This is how I got through dull GRE passages. Another strategy that can work is making a game of it (“How many TPS reports can I fill out in the next 30 minutes? I want to beat yesterday’s record.”).

      If you can listen to music or podcasts at work, those help.

    2. Fictional Butt*

      I find the Pomodoro technique (25 minutes of working and 5 min break) to be really useful. Especially just committing to work for 25 minutes straight–the first few minutes are rough, but then since I don’t have any options other than to work, I totally forget about not-working and become completely focused, even if the work is boring.

      3. Pebbles*

        Yep! I love this method! Especially since I know I can do something else (even if its just for 5 minutes) once I get this task done! One tip though: minimize all distractions. Set your Outlook or other email programs to not give you a popup that you have new email, mute the phone, etc. I’m still working on how to convey to others that I’m “in the zone” when the tomato is red and to not distract me if at all possible.

      4. medium of ballpoint*

        Fourthing! And I adjust the timers as needed. Bad days working on my dissertation back in the day were 5 minutes on/10 minutes off but it kept me moving.

        These days, I’ll usually make silly games out of things. I can have a piece of gum if I finish 4 tasks, or take a dance break every 8 tasks but only to 90s hip-hop, or talk to myself in different accents for different phases of a project, or converse with inanimate objects in my office about how to proceed with a task, or pretend I’m on a documentary and I’m narrating every step of the task. And once I get going, it’s easier to come up with more silly systems/rewards. It keeps me less focused on my frustration and resentment and that’s usually what’s slowing me down.

        1. Fictional Butt*

          Lol, I totally understand the 5 min on/10 min off thing! Lowering my standards and setting tiny goals is another way I motivate myself on really bad days. Accepting that you’re not going to get anything done, and shooting for something slightly above zero, can result in much more work getting done than if you try to force yourself into your normal productive mode.

    3. Alex*

      I listen to podcasts so at least my mind is occupied while I can be doing boring tasks. It actually helps me focus.

      1. ali*

        I should clarify that the work itself isn’t easy, just boring. When I do it, I do actually have to concentrate on it. I’m just tired of the same old same old. Been doing this job for 5 years with very little variance.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Make a game of it. “This task usually takes 12 minutes. I am going to see if I can streamline it so that it takes 8 minutes or less.”

      Fresh eyes. Decide to look at boring task as if you have never seen it before in your life. What do you notice that you have never noticed before?

      Why would you donate your weekends to your job if you don’t have to? Build more personal goals so that you are more motivated to get your work done in the time allotted. If you have personal goals ramped up you might be less inclined to let things go for the weekend.

      Pretend it’s your first week on the job and you want to make a good impression. OTH, pretend you have a verrrry important job interview tomorrow and you want your boss to say glowing things about you.
      I have never found one thing to work. I kept a list of different cons to tell myself to keep myself moving. If one idea did not work today, I would bump to the next idea and tell myself that to keep me moving.

      I hope you are looking for a new job.

      1. ali*

        I haven’t been actively looking, what I do/want to do is very niche so there aren’t a whole lot of opportunities. For the most part where I am is pretty cushy, and when it’s busy I mostly like it. And I really like my boss and the company.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      It’s our slow season right now and I am honestly training myself on some things I was never taught. Or that relate to my job with software. (QuickBooks tutorials from Intuit/YouTube for a CPA firm) Anything like that you can watch/read up on? Training for any software you use?

  8. Amy the Rev*

    I got a job!!!!

    I’m gonna be the Associate Minister at a medium-sized metropolitan church, where I’ll get to run their social justice projects, preach once every 3 weeks, and direct their faith formation for children/youth/adults.

    It’s been almost a year to the day since I graduated Divinity school, and I am SO happy to finally have a position in my field, with benefits, and to leave temping behind!!

    13. Teapot Librarian*

      This sounds like an amazing job! I hope it’s as wonderful as it sounds and that it’s meaningful for both you and the parishioners!

    22. zora*

      YYAYAAAAYYYY!!!! I’ve been thinking of you often and hoping you would find a great church, I am so happy for you!! (My dad has often been on the other side of this as a board member for his church, so I know how long it can take but how important it is for both parties!)

  9. Dani X*

    I have been at my job for 17 years. I am interviewing for another position in another company. It kinda just fell into my lap and I figured why not. It would give me different skills, but I am worried that my skills in company 1 wouldn’t translate into skills in company 2. Also the commute is 2 hours each way. But I am worried the longer I stay at company 1 the less marketable I am. And that company 1 will just lay me off once I have been there too long and make too much. Company 2 is more high stress and will have on call, whereas company 1 is pretty much 8 -5. I am looking for advice.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself into a job that you (a) don’t want, (b) isn’t a good fit, and (c) doesn’t actually fit in your career path. A two hour commute each way means that your work day, which you already know will be high stress and long hours, will now basically encompass your entire day. I would wait to see what other opportunities come your way.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        The two hour commute would be a deal killer for me.

        If you are worried about your current job, you might want to actively look around. Don’t wait for something to fall into your lap. Be proactive, and you will likely find something that better fits your life. It might take some time, but eventually you interview for a position that you like. Once you feel you are in charge of the search, you won’t have to settle.

    2. Ribbon*

      Ooof, I would be careful about making this move. It sounds like the balance of pros and cons is heavily weighted to cons – the only upside is that you no longer have to worry about getting laid off from your current employer? And speaking as someone with a 40 minute driving commute, I would run far far away from a 2-hour commute. That is a lot of time out of your life.

    3. Stelmselms*

      Go for option three. Keep looking for another position with a shorter commute and less stress. I don’t think you have much to gain if you take this new position unless it pays a heck of a lot more. And even then it might not be worth it.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Exactly! It sounds like there are some concerns about job #1,but taking a crappy job out of fear is a terrible career move.

    4. Jessesgirl72*

      Don’t take the job at the new place just because it “fell into your lap”

      Instead, if you really worry about your job stability and growth where you are, then apply for jobs at other places! It’s not an either/or situation.

      And I would never advise anyone to take a job with a 2 hour one-way commute who is worried about it. Yes, it will be at least as miserable as you think it will be!

        1. Windchime*

          I have to say I agree. The commute itself would be a deal-breaker for me. I have a one-hour commute (each way) and that’s about the limit of what I would do. And to add a stressful job on top of that? I’d keep looking.

    5. Liz*

      2 hours EACH way plus being on call and being high stress? That’s a massive commitment and to do that, just to switch companies, doesn’t seem wise. I would advise starting an official job search vs. just considering the job that fell into your lap.

    6. Isben Takes Tea*

      It sounds like it depends on your priorities. However, it may help to consider that there are more than two options…you could decide company B isn’t right for you (I don’t know how long your current commute is, but a long commute can burn you out of a good job fast), but it doesn’t mean you have to stay at company A.

      It’s definitely better to find something you’re genuinely optimistic about, and not just operating out of fear (“Well, this job is going to dry up so I need to find SOMETHING”) if you can.

    7. Ghost Town*

      Sounds like potential job would be awful. I can’t imagine a 2 hour commute, each way, on top of a high stress position. In this paragraph, the only pro you list for the potential job is new skills. Not great salary and benefits. Not an exciting company or program. Not the field you always wanted to work in. Not fantastic people. The biggest con to current position you mention is fear of going stale and being laid off. Do you have an idea of when you’ll reach that make-too-much, will-be-laid-off threshold? If so, use that as your timeline and give yourself time to job search. (and the usual, look for opportunities, both inside and outside of your company, to grow your skill set)

    8. NJ Anon*

      I would not take a job with that long of a commute. It will wear on you. This I know!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I have this long of a commute but I love my job and I love my me-time on the train – and crucially no on-call ever.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      A two hour commute and high stress equals health issues down the road. It’s pretty much a certainty so please think about this carefully.

      I think you can get a better job than this. Hold out for it. Don’t allow your worries of the moment to make your decisions for you. It sounds like if you take the this job your worries will not double, your worries will be ten times greater than what they are now.

    10. LKW*

      You don’t sound like you want this new opportunity – but rather you’re considering using it as a stepping stone to something else. If that’s the case, that’s fine – consider if this opportunity would get you from point A to point C but it might not be worth the added stress and longer commute.

    11. curmudgeon*

      DON’T DO IT!
      I was out of work for 10 months, took a job that was lower than I should have with an hour commute each way. I’m burnt out, bored, and feeling useless & exhausted all the time.

      It’s difficult to look for a new job because I’m just feeling so blah.
      Yeah, it’s nice to actually be working but the pay sucks & is not quite enough to feel like my head is above water.

    12. Fafaflunkie*

      Methinks you’ve already answered your own question.

      I would rather be looking for a Company 3 if I were in your shoes. One that provides a better fit with your skill set. One without the stress you’re already foreseeing. And especially one without that insane commute which would seriously be a hazard if this job at Company 2 demands working late and starting early! Just the thought of driving that insane amount of time whilst exhausted would be a deal breaker for me. And if you’re taking public transit, I see you falling asleep on the train/bus, missing your stop, and spending another hour backtracking home.

      In the words of the late John Pinette: “I say nay nay!”

    13. Her Grace*

      Why is the nebulous fear of MAYBE being laid off possibly because your company doesn’t want to pay you what you’re worth so great that you are willing to take a worse job to avoid it?

      Maybe that is what you should be looking at. If that’s not it, you did a really good job of avoiding in your post what your real reason is for jumping ship.

    14. London Calling*

      On-call, high stress and a killer commute that even on a good day adds more stress. I wouldn’t do it – the commute would be the decider for me. Do you actually KNOW that you are in danger of being laid off or is this a fear you are talking yourself into? There’s no harm in polishing up your CV and looking around, but a job taken out of desperation is never a good job and I have reason to know that.

  10. Pup Seal*

    This week was rough. Beginning of this month, I took 6 days off to go on a vacation. My vacation was approved, and I get two weeks of paid vacation. Fast forward to this week, Big Boss almost didn’t pay me those 6 days I was gone and tried to pull off that I don’t have paid vacation. Luckily I had my supervisor and the handbook on my side, so I got my full paycheck, but the experience was so disheartening.

      1. Pup Seal*

        Yes, it’s typical, and I’ve been job searching. My supervisor and his brother who also works here told me they couldn’t use their paid vacation when they had to go home to their native country to spread the ashes of their deceased mother. The brother even had 3 weeks of paid vacation for working here ten+ years.

        1. Sualah*

          I am staggered by this. In the company’s eyes, what are you “allowed” to use vacation for, then?

        2. writelhd*

          Wow, that is so not normal of the workplace world overall. It doesn’t have to be that way!

    5. LKW*

      That indicates that your boss will happily screw you over. I’d seriously consider whether you want to work for someone who treats people that way.

  11. Bored & Ignored*

    I’m feeling very frustrated at my job. I used to love it, but now my boss barely talks to me. We had a meeting maybe 2 weeks ago and everything felt right, but despite sitting in an office across from my cube we never talk. She has no idea what I’m working on. She’s having an affair with her boss, and therefore they are ALWAYS together in each other’s offices. She didn’t even wish me happy birthday this week, and in the past she has. I don’t think I have done anything, she just doesn’t socialize with anyone (outside of her boss). It makes me feel uninvolved and bored at work.

    I’ve started to start looking, but I’m second guessing myself. My job pays well, vacation sucks, but I like my coworkers and the CEO. What if I hate my next job? I am SO unmotivated at my current company, and it wasn’t always like this. I have brought up the need for more work/interaction at work, but my boss just gave me tasks that I don’t enjoy and don’t have the motivation to complete. I’m not sure what to do. It just seems like staying here is a dead-end.

    Not really a question, just feeling pretty down about a job I used to love.

    1. Liet-Kynes*

      My feeling is, if this makes you feel any better, that it’s not about you. My read is that your boss is marinating in a stew of New Relationship Energy and illicit thrills, is completely distracted from her own work herself, and is giving you the cold shoulder because she knows you know about the affair and finds it awkward/threatening.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        That is some darn good advice there, Leit-Kynes.
        Bored and Ignored – I am totally bored with my job too. Today’s lack of motivation is matched by the gray sky and rainy, cold weather. I hate the feeling that I am only here to get me to 5 (like the poster’s coworker from the other day). I have so much to do and yet, here I am avoiding it all on AAM.

        1. Bored & Ignored*

          Thanks, both of you. Yes. I live for 5 PM. And I hate it. I feel like I’m being difficult or any other irritating stereotype people want to apply to my generation.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      Can you report your boss to HR, even anonymously? That kind of relationship is a fast train to a toxic workplace and it sounds like it’s taking her away from doing her job.

      1. Bored & Ignored*

        Pretty sure everyone knows. It’s the office gossip. I played ignorant for a few years when people tried to ask me about it. Even HR makes jokes and comments. Apparently, they were talked to about it when it first started years ago…

        1. Camellia*

          Wait, this has been going on for years? And now suddenly she’s giving you the cold shoulder? That would make me very uneasy, wondering what ELSE has changed.

    3. Lalaith*

      If you want more interaction, can you talk to your coworkers and see if there’s anything you can collaborate on? Obviously it’s dependent on your work/office, but if you came up with your own project and brought it to your boss, she might be fine with it.

      1. Bored & Ignored*

        This wouldn’t quite work in my role, but there are some things that I can do that will work. Thank you, I will try to brainstorm.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It is very hard when the boss disconnects from the job/workplace. Here the reason happens to be an affair but there are all kinds of reasons why bosses disconnect. People don’t quit jobs they quit bosses.

      So you are beating yourself up by asking what if you don’t like your next job?
      The rebuttal to that comes in two parts:
      1)PROMISE yourself to do your homework about any new job you are seriously considering. You can find tips on this blog of how to watch for yellow and red flags. You can also take a hard look at what you like about this job so you know to watch for those things as you talk with new places.

      2) Make a second promise to yourself that if you do pick a bad place in spite of your best efforts, you will be a good caretaker of your own self. You will get yourself out there ASAP and find something else. Make this promise to yourself.

      See, the question “what if I hate my next job?” is actually a fair and reasonable question. The response to it is, “I will do right by ME and I will make sure I do everything I can to get myself to a better place.”

      You have an additional secret weapon here. You can come back and talk over your job offers with us. We can help you brainstorm.

      1. Bored & Ignored*

        Thank you NotSo NewReader. This is awesome advice, and you’re completely right. I know this, of course, but it seems like it’s hard to tell ourselves that when we’re in it!

    5. Emily*

      I think it’s time to look for something else. It might take a while to find the right fit, but this situation just sounds bad to me.

    6. MissGirl*

      “What if I hate my next job?” Why not ask “What if I love my next job?”

      Don’t fear of the unknown paralyze you.

      1. Windchime*

        This is so true!

        Story time: I worked for the same IT organization for 17 years. I started there when I was a brand-new programmer who knew nothing and worked my way up. As the years went by, things started to feel sour and, by the end, I had an incompetent manager who was actively building a case to fire me. By then, I was an anxious, stressed-out mess and I had to job hunt under duress. The thought of leaving the people and location that were comfortable to me was hard, even though I could see the writing on the wall.

        Fast forward 7 months. My new team is amazing. I work in a beautiful city and in a room that has floor-to-ceiling windows. The work is way less stressful. My boss isn’t clinically insane. And I never would have imagined that I would have new work friends, new inside jokes, new traditions.

        Moves are scary. And they can also be really, really great.

      2. JulieBulie*

        Ditto – what if you love your next job?

        The thing is, you already have a job. So you don’t have to take a new one unless you really like what you see during your interview.

    7. Undine*

      If you do start looking, remember that applying doesn’t mean you have to interview, interviewing doesn’t have to mean you accept. You have a job that has some good things about it, so you are in a position to only accept something better. But looking will help you know what’s out there, and updating your resume will give you perspective on your career so far.

    8. Channel Z*

      Hi Bored and Ignored, I’m right there with you. My bosses are the same, except I go for months without one of them talking to me, and I suspect the reason is also they are having an affair. Even if they aren’t, they don’t talk to anyone other than each other, it is cliquey and toxic. And yes, originally I loved my job, but now I want to cry every day, I am isolated and hardly talk to anyone. Unfortunately, if I leave I won’t finish my PhD. Not sure if it’s worth it anymore. :(

  12. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    So it looks like I may be the one bringing the drama this week. My one real life indulgence is froofy flavored creamer, and I bring a bottle to work on the regular. Last week, I brought a brand-spankin’-new bottle, a quart and a half, on Monday morning, and when I came in on Wednesday, discovered it had all of a teaspoon’s worth left in the bottom. We’ve got a bunch of new hires, and dozens of people on my floor — no way to track it down. And yes, my name was on the bottle.

    What did I do? Brought in a new bottle and pasted GIANT NOTES ALL OVER IT ‘this is not for sharing, Boochie only!” And also put a note on the front of the fridge to the effect of ‘whoever is using my creamer, please stop, it isn’t company provided!”

    Evidently several people have taken notice, but as someone else had their bottled iced coffee raided, there’s been more commiseration than judgment…. at least so far as I can tell. Still, I’m bracing to become the “crazy creamer lady.”

    2. tiny temping teapot*

      Regulars at my previous job said always put your name on everything in the fridge so I don’t think I would think crazy creamer lady. OTOH, I’m loath to touch anything in the fridge that doesn’t have for everyone stamped on it, so I might not be the demographic you should worry about.

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        LOL. One of the professors in my department draws a skull and crossbones and writes “POISON” on his leftovers in the departmental fridge.

    4. H.C.*

      Eek, sorry to hear – I would say either bring enough for the day & keep it in an insulated cooler/lunch bag — or store the creamer in a nondescript, labeled (& ideally, opaque) tupperware container, which makes it less likely for your co-workers to use.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        Seconded on the nondescript container- I’m thinking something like a cheap opaque plastic water bottle, or a travel coffee mug.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Or stick it in a lunch bag. Or even a plain brown paper bag. I would hope most people wouldn’t go digging through bags looking for stuff. That is a pretty clear signal that it belongs to someone.

        2. TheLazyB*

          My line manager in my last job got her sandwiches from the fridge one day and unwrapped them to find SOMEONE HAD TAKEN A BITE.

          The most gutting thing about this story is that I was on maternity leave so didn’t find out till months afterwards. I was so disappointed to have missed that day.

      4. Jadelyn*

        Didn’t someone keep their creamer in a bottle labeled as “breast milk” to stop people stealing it? I swear I read that here.

      5. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Yeah, put it in a Tupperware small pitcher and make it look like a homemade kale smoothie.

    5. NoNameYet*

      My dad had some success with putting “This is not a public feeding trough” on his food. But I like “I have ebola” better, ha!

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry. I don’t know why people feel like they can take others’ food and drinks! You are not being crazy or unreasonable!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would put a sign up on the fridge saying something to the effect of “don’t not take other people’s food/drink”. Annnd, “Items in this fridge are not intended for sharing. If it is not yours then do not take it.”

      1. zora*

        Yes, me too!!!

        You are not “the crazy creamer lady” you are 159% justified, Countess!! Label the crap out of it until they get it!!!

        I feel like I’m being the Drama Llama about some of the logistical things in our office sometimes, but then my other coworkers thank me for speaking up about things that were bothering them, too, and getting them fixed. So, I won’t feel bad about it anymore!

        1. zora*

          I don’t think this is necessarily true. With lots of new hires, they might assume that all coffee supplies are shared, not just certain ones. I like to start by assuming good intentions before I decide that everyone is a garbage person.

          1. Kerr*

            Definitely, especially if the side with the written name was turned to the inside of the shelf or something. In an early job, I’m pretty sure I took someone’s creamer for a while. I had no experience with people bringing their own creamer to work, and assumed it was office-supplied!

          2. Mallory Janis Ian*

            I accidentally took a coworker’s apple once and didn’t realize it until she turned up looking for her some in the fridge. I had been keeping apples in the fridge for myself, and I took one that I thought was one of mine from a few days before. Then when she was confused about the whereabouts of the apple she’d brought in that morning, I realized that I had eaten her apple, and not one of mine. I told her what had happened and brought her two apples the next day, of which she would accept only one.

    8. New Window*

      I’ve heard of people putting big, thick, lipstick mouth/lip prints over bottles with liquids. Not sure how feasible that is with a bottle of creamer, though, so the nondescript water bottle or container idea might be more effective.

    9. Pwyll*

      I once heard of someone pouring creamer into a nondescript container and labeling it “Breastmilk”. Not sure how well that would work if it smells like delicious chocolate and caramel, though.

    10. E*

      Can you “disguise” it in another container? Whether it’s a little mason jar or even going so far as to pick up a cheap bottle of something in a nasty flavor then emptying it out to refill with your awesome stuff. Then folks would be less likely to use what they don’t recognize or consider yummy.

      1. Bri*

        My Dad puts his in a water bottle rips off the label and writes his name. Then people don’t know what it is and should be sketched out.

      2. medium of ballpoint*

        They actually sell shelf-stable individual non- and flavored creamers like you see at diners. I keep a box in my desk and that solved the problem of the disappearing creamer. It also helps for tea, since I don’t go through milk quickly enough at work to prevent it from spoiling. (I’m clearly not a fussy tea person, though.)

      3. persimmon*

        On a similar note, I find my stuff is much less likely to be taken if I put the container inside a plastic shopping bag. Having it less visible, plus the extra step of unwrapping something that isn’t yours, turns out to be a good deterrent to all but the most hardened offenders. Added bonus is keeping everything together if I have multiple items in the fridge.

    11. someone*

      Assuming it’s non dairy creamer you can probably leave it on your desk. That stuff is mostly oil, water and liquid sweetener. Oh yeah, and titanium dioxide to make it white.

    13. Scarlott*

      at my work people buy small cartons of milk, and literally lock the carton. Yes, someone could cut the carton open, but its a lot more of “stealing” if you have to cut.

    14. AwkwardKaterpillar*

      I had this problem, too. I once wrote ‘NOT CREAMER’ on it, and for once I didn’t lose half of it to fridge thieves.

    15. Anono-me*

      May I suggest individual shelf stable creamer cups that can be kept at your desk.

      I can never bring myself to use the shared fridge or lunch storage shelf in the breakroom. At a previous position, someone would Goldilocks her way through the lunches in the fridge and breackroom until she found one she liked, then eat it all up. I started bringing sandwiches so that at least I would know if someone else had been eating my lunch. You can’t always tell with hotdish leftovers (or porridge).

    16. DaniCalifornia*

      If it really gets bad I would put a weeks worth in a sealed thermos and get a locking lunch bag.

    17. Chaordic One*

      At my previous workplace there were several employees who brought their own little mini-refrigerators which they kept in their offices or under their desks or cubicles and that seemed to work well for quite a while. Then management went on an energy conservation kick and everyone had to get rid of their mini-fridges and electric space heaters. (They even removed the light bulbs in the vending machines in the break room.)

      It was nice while it lasted.

  13. Breakfast Patty*

    How do you handle emails you send, with several questions, that are not all addressed in the reply. And you need the answers to all of them to proceed.

    Sometimes I send an email with just 2 or 3 questions and the reply only answers 1. Happens all the time and I can’t figure it out.

    1. katamia*

      If you haven’t already, try putting the questions in bullets or numbered lists. Some people just don’t read the full paragraph, or it doesn’t stick in their mind or something. Bullets can help make that clearer.

      If you’ve done this, try putting them in separate emails or doing it over the workplace IM if they’re coworkers and you have such a thing.

      1. Fafaflunkie*

        Just was about to post this. Doesn’t take much to put your email questions in bullet points–even if you have to send it in plain text without the preformatted structure of rich text/HTML that Outlook will pre-structure for you. Quick shortcut: on a new line, type an asterisk and a space. Outlook will figure out what you’re up to from there.

    3. Fabulous*

      Are you asking the questions in a bulleted list? If not, that may help to distinguish the specific number of questions you need answered.

    4. Camellia*

      I do one of two things – if I only need one or two answers, I send one question per email. If I need more than that, I schedule a short meeting/call the person (depending on office norms).

    5. AlphabetSoupCity*

      Ugh so frustrating. I try to number my questions and have the question as the very first sentence after the number, with any extra information coming afterwars. I find that helps. If you’re doing formatting like that already I’d advise just asking again the last question you need answered. Say thanks, also (other question)

      1. Iris Eyes*

        This. Plus extra info in italics or question in bold if things are a continuing issue.

      2. Your Weird Uncle*

        To add to this: when I reply to a partial answer, I never start out my email with ‘thanks’ or similar because, if they are running an email client which pops up in the corner with the first sentence or so, they will only glance at ‘thanks!’ and think they’re done – they’ll never click far enough to see that I need more information.

        I’ve gotten to the point where I’ll just shoot off a quick reply (‘Can I pay Expense 2? Thanks!’) and I get better results that way.

    6. Future Homesteader*

      As annoying as it is, (I think) the best thing to do is usually re-send but make no mention of the fact you’ve already asked – just restate the questions you still need answers to as if they’re follow ups, not questions you’ve already asked.

    7. Liet-Kynes*

      My guess is you’re burying them in paragraphs, when they need to be numbered or in bullets. Also, I’d try mentioning the number of questions you have. Try something like this:

      “Dear Baron Harkonnen:

      I have three questions about risks to spice production on Arrakis and could use your input.

      – How often are sandworms spotted?
      – What latitudes have the highest number of sandworm sightings?
      – How large are sandworms, typically?

      Appreciate your input on these three issues.

      – Emperor Shaddam IV”

      1. Miles Teg*

        I smiled when I saw your name in a thread above, but this example was just too good.

    8. NW Mossy*

      Honestly, by calling the person instead. If you need to document their responses for some reason, you can always send an email afterwards that says “Confirming A, B, and C, as we discussed.”

      I just finished listening to an excellent podcast about email, and it makes a great point – we default to it as our primary mode of communication at work because it’s easy for us as the sender, not because it works best to achieve the objective of the communication. In your example, you’re sending the email because you need answers to move forward with work, not just to inform the recipient about something non-critical. Choosing a communication method that’s a bit more work on your end (like calling) implicitly sends the message “Hey, I need this info promptly – let’s just take 5 and get this done.”

      I hate the phone, but I’ve made it a mission of mine recently to start using it more and I’ve found I can resolve open items much more efficiently now than I did when I used email more. It’s really been an amazing difference.

      1. NoMoreMrFixit*

        Yes, please call the person instead. The longer an email gets the worse the reader’s attention span. Anything more than 2 questions and a chat or a meeting is far better. And the email then becomes the agenda.

        1. ByLetters*

          Thirding this. If you need to have the email backup (CYA everyone!) then as soon as you put down the phone, send an email that says “just to confirm the answers we discussed on the phone, you stated XYZ, so I will go ahead with submitting the Moneybags Report for Mr. Scrooge. Thanks for your response!”

          If that’s not possible for whatever reason, shorten the email as much as possible, making the questions brief, bulleted, and if necessary, bolded.

          And for the love of all the little gods, DO NOT use the stupid “read receipt” feature, where it triggers a pop-up message that will tell you whether or not the person has seen your email. Just seeing it makes my blood boil and I don’t believe I’m the only one.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          Unless it’s me. I don’t want a call, I want your questions by email.

          I doubt it’s just me.

          3. Kristie*

            I prefer email as well! And I try to answer questions as thoroughly as possible in my email.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        Love your podcast point. I thought there was a discussion a couple weeks ago on the open thread about emails with multiple questions. It got me to changing around my emails starting with my question first. Then niceties.
        More importantly I have been calling instead and getting a much better response. Many people are so helpful on the phone. That rarely translates through email.

      3. Bullwinkle*

        I haven’t solved the unanswered question issue, but I like your point about email communication.

        I have a coworker who gets SO annoyed that her supervisor told her to call or text a certain senior person instead of email, because this senior person is notoriously unresponsive to email. Dude, I get that it’s slight less convenient for you, but at least they were direct about it, and you get the information you need instead of stewing about your unanswered emails.

    9. Teapot Librarian*

      I HATE HATE HATE THIS!!! Last time this happened, I just replied “thanks, but what about the other two questions I asked below?” Her response was “what two questions?” Seriously. So I copied and pasted, and then her response included “I only do short emails.” Well, okay then. (Yesterday I emailed her a lengthy list of supplies I need ordered; I wonder if she’ll order them all or if the email had too many words for her.)

      1. Iris Eyes*

        A lot of people use their phone as their primary email viewing which makes long emails annoying especially when responding to multiple questions since it is difficult to go back and forth for reference. I have a coworker that uses the subject line for the meat of the message for this reason.

      3. bridget*

        Wide eyes. At my workplace, this would be tantamount to saying “oh, I’m just not good at my job.” Most of us are paid at least in part to read, understand, and respond to emails.

        1. Security SemiPro*

          “I’m a functional illiterate.”

          Would. Not. Fly.

          But none of us answer our phones, so it’s an office culture thing.

    10. Bend & Snap*

      I do bullets and tell people to feel free to answer in line. So they’ll just answer next to the question, quickly, and write “answers below” in the reply. Quick and easy.

      If I have to wade through paragraphs to get to what people need I’m very likely to miss something or put off answering longer than I should.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        Yes- it’s extremely common in my office to reply in the original email with answers in a different color.
        Some people even use tables for this- 1 question in each box, with a second column headed “Responses”. It’s really effective.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I number the questions.

      When I get 1 out of 3 answered, I email back, “Thank you for your answer to Q1. As soon as I get your answer to Q2 and Q3, I will be able to move forward on my end”. Depending on the circumstances, I might change the subject of the email from “ABC” to “ABC Second Request”.

      I have a job where reading is critical to doing the job, though, and everyone knows this.

    12. NB*

      A number of readers have suggested numbered or bullet lists, which is a good idea. I also like to start my message by saying, “I have three questions,” or “Would you please respond to these three questions?”

    13. Emily*

      I’ve found that sometimes it’s best to just call someone and ask. A lot of people don’t carefully read their email.

    14. BRR*

      I agree with everyone saying bullets. I’ve worked with people where you couldn’t ask too much at once or they considered it a bigger project and would put it off since it would take more time.

    15. Felicia*

      It seems relates to when I ask “Should we do X or should we do Y insteas ? ” And the person just responds yes. I think people sometimes just skim emails or dont absorb what it says. I like a numbered list best, saying before the list how many questions i have. If that does work if its a coworker i go ibto their office and ask, if its someone external I call them and mind of pretend I didn’t already ask.

    16. Aussie academic*

      Some great suggestions here, but also to add – some people just never get it. My boss at ex-job would do this, and I tried all the suggestions here and then some. Always short emails, dot points, bottom line first. If I sent 2 questions in one email, I might get one answer (although often no answer). Two emails meant at least one (often two) unanswered emails. If I asked whether he wanted me to do option A or option B, I’d often get ‘OK’ as a reply. (When that happened, I made it my policy to email back with ‘thanks, I’ll go with option X then’ where option X was whatever I wanted to do. If he really didn’t want that option, then I figured he could let me know.) If I called, I got told there wasn’t time to talk and meetings just didn’t happen (his secretary would put them in his calendar with his okay, he just regularly scheduled multiple things on at the same time and then it was a lottery as to which he’d show up for). And as he worked across multiple sites, you might only see him in person every few weeks, so you couldn’t easily talk in person.

      Majorly dysfunctional school (he was head of school) but he is completely clueless at to why he has such high staff turnover.

    17. A. Schuyler*

      This depends on the type of question and my relationship with the recipient, but I sent an email with half a dozen question to a colleague this week and formatted it in a table – my question, my guess at the answer, your answer. He filled in most of the boxes (some with questions of his own) and I proceeded on the basis that my guess was correct for the others. It worked out.

  14. marmaladechainsaw*

    Feeling pretty down…the dream job I interviewed twice with still hasn’t contacted me after the second interview (despite saying I should know within 1-2 weeks and they would ‘let me know either way’; it’s already been 3 weeks and no word).

    I sent a follow-up email a week ago asking for an update and got an automated reply that the person was out of the office until the next (now this past) Wednesday. Yet now it’s Friday and still no reply, so I’m finally accepting that I (more than likely) didn’t get the job.

    Does anyone have any similar stories (where they actually ended up getting the job) to cheer me up??

    Happy Friday!

    1. H.C.*

      It comes with the caveat that I work in government – where hiring/onboarding is notoriously slow – but the time frame from “we like you and would like to hire you” (on 2nd interview) and my actual first day was 6 months (and yes, I did a some follow-ups in between, but no more than once a month.)

      1. Pwyll*

        This. My government accession process took 6 months. Megacorp hiring took ~4. I once got contacted for an interview a full year after my application was submitted, with literally no acknowledgement on the part of the interviewer. Hiring timelines can be rough.

      2. stevenz*

        Don’t despair. Recruitment processes have a nasty habit of dropping off the priority list. Things come up, fires need to be put out, people get sick, etc. They have lived this long without you, they can hang on another week or so. As I always say, when applying for a job, no news is no news.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      We told our finalists that we would let them know the following week. Then my boss decided we needed to talk to some of the candidates again, but one of them was going to be out of the country. By the time he got back, my boss changed her mind. It’s now a month later and we still have to do the bureaucratic paperwork that comes with government hiring. FINALLY my new employee is starting on Tuesday. The job was posted in December.

  15. k*

    Is it a red flag when a job is listed again within a short period?

    About 2 months ago I saw a job listing that I was interested in, but for reasons I won’t get into I didn’t apply. The listing was later removed, I assumed because the position was filled. Now I’m actively job hunting and the other day the listing for the same position popped up again. Is that a bad sign? I suppose they maybe just never filled it, or the person they got was a bad fit, but it also makes me think that it’s a sign of high turn over. And would it be different if it was a longer period (6 months, 8 months)? Because I’ve see that happen before as well.

    1. CatCat*

      I think it’s not enough information to gauge. Could be high turnover, but could be something else. Couldn’t hurt to apply. You can find out about turnover in an interview.

    2. Marillenbaum*

      It might be that they didn’t find anyone they liked the first time around, or there were hiring issues internally. I wouldn’t let it rattle you yet.

    4. Jessesgirl72*

      Sometimes they just copy and paste listings when it’s not the exact same position in the exact same department.

    5. Ghost Town*

      CatCat’s right. Not enough information to go on. In that timeframe, it could honestly be that an offer was made and declined. Or what the other commenters have said.

    6. amysee*

      This happened at my workplace. Got all the way to the offer stage, candidate decided he didn’t want the job, 2nd choice candidate had already taken another position. Didn’t like any of the others enough to hire them, so had to reopen.

      Could be anything! Worth applying to learn more.

      1. Xarcady*

        Something like this just happened at my job. Hired a new person, they took all the standard training, worked one day, and texted that night that they quit.

        Had to start the search all over again.

    7. Jadelyn*

      I can think of any number of reasons other than fast turnover that would cause a listing to go down then back up within a couple months:

      It was placed “on-hold” while they reorganized the team or department.
      They thought they had a hire but hit a problem in pre-hire or onboarding (like my employer does background checks, which can take up to 2 weeks, and if the answer is no that’s that, end of story, find a new final candidate).
      They had an internal applicant and pulled the posting down to give priority to internal hiring, but the internal candidate’s current manager “sweetened the deal” with a raise or promotion and the internal candidate ended up staying where they were.
      Someone higher-up decided they didn’t need the position and had it closed, then a few months later the manager was able to make their case to get it re-opened.

      These are all situations I’ve personally experienced in coordinating recruiting. Don’t read too much into it – recruiting and hiring is MUCH messier than most people realize.

  16. S.*

    I accepted a new job this week, for a 54% increase in salary, doing work that is much more interesting and better for my career long term. I gave notice yesterday and my boss is super bummed, which I knew he would be, so I feel terrible. How can I wrap up my notice period here and remain excited for the new job, instead of feeling guilty for leaving this one? It isn’t a bad job or a bad boss, it just isn’t the right fit for me.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      You’re doing what’s right for you! It’s not your job to make sure they always have a competent person in the position at what sounds like a below-market rate.

      Keep reminding yourself how exciting it’s going to be to do work that’s more suited to you — AND get paid more to do it!

    2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Congratulations! You should feel awesome about this move. It sounds like it’s a great decision. I left an awesome job I loved for a big salary increase and a shorter commute — best decision I’ve ever made, career-wise, even though I felt awfully guilty about leaving the job and boss I loved. You’ve got to do you.

    4. rubyrose*

      Do the best you can for them in your absence. Make sure you have updated documentation, instructions for things only you have been doing.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        ^^ This. Focus on making the transition from you to your replacement as seamless as possible. Spend a little time reflecting on your early days in this position. Was there anything you weren’t told or provided with that would have helped at the beginning, and can you make that happen for the next person?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think just accept the guilt/sadness feelings. These are feelings and we are allowed to have feelings. You’re not going to act on these feelings so that means they are basically benign.

      Big Picture Perspective: Many things in life are a mixed bag like this. Very seldom is something all happy and very seldom is something all sad. It’s a mix. And it’s okay to have to opposite emotions running at the same time. It’s part of being human. If you are sad for your boss that does not automatically mean you are LESS excited about your new place. You can remain very excited about your new place.

      Offer to help your boss in whatever way you can that is reasonable. If you have positive things to say, tell him those things too. “I enjoyed working for you.” Or “I will always think of you as a fair minded person”. Don’t lie, but if you can find something nice to say let him know.

      Congrats on your new job.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Yes to all of this.

        I also suspect that once you start your new job, you won’t be spending much time feeling guilty or sad about leaving OldJob. So just let the feelings be what they are for the next few weeks, and then move on with your awesome new job. Congrats!

    6. Emily*

      Congratulations!

      It sounds like you’ve made the right decision for you. It’s your life, and you deserve this!

    7. S.*

      Also wanted to say a big thank you to Alison for all the salary negotiating tips on here. The hiring manager was a little awkward about salary and clearly wanted me to make the first move and say a range. I declined to say what I was making now because it was a fairly different position (they were ok with that), then waited through the awkward silence until they offered up their range, and I’m glad I did because the bottom of their range was the top of mine! I asked for slightly below the middle of their range and they came back and gave me exactly the middle (more than I asked for!). I still can’t believe how well it worked out, and I know a big part of it was reading all of the advice here.

    8. Windchime*

      I would focus on the 54% increase! Wow! I know it’s hard to leave a boss when they are sad to see you go, but you are doing what’s best for yourself and your career.

      Congratulations on the huge raise.

    9. Pearly Girl*

      Guilt is overrated!

      You did good work for your boss and now it’s time to move on. He would do the same if he had a fab opportunity. Celebrate your success and move forward!

    10. Oscar Madisoy*

      “I gave notice yesterday and my boss is super bummed, which I knew he would be, so I feel terrible. How can I wrap up my notice period here and remain excited for the new job, instead of feeling guilty for leaving this one? It isn’t a bad job or a bad boss, it just isn’t the right fit for me.”

      If it were the other way around – if they gave you notice, causing you to be super bummed, which I’m sure they’d know you would be, they wouldn’t feel terrible. Even if they explained that it was not because you did bad work or were a bad worker but it just wasn’t a right fit for them, they would not feel guilty about letting you go.

      So you should not feel guilty about moving on.

  17. Camellia*

    Happy Friday! What is the strangest coincidence that you have experienced at work?

    Here is mine:

    Three decades ago, the women’s restroom at work had a narrow metal shelf that ran the length of the wall above all the sinks, and above each sink and shelf was a metal dispenser that held paper towels that could be pulled out one at a time.

    One Tuesday morning, shortly before 10:00 AM, I went into the restroom at the same time as a coworker. I had my tea bag and two sweetener packets because I was heading downstairs for hot water to make tea. She was stopping in on her way to a meeting. I put my tea bag and sweeteners on the little shelf over a sink and went into a stall. When we exited our stalls, my stuff was gone! We were both like, “What in the world?” “Who would take that?!?” Oh, well. She went to her meeting and I went back to my desk for replacements.

    The next Tuesday we found ourselves there again at the same time. When we were washing our hands, I pulled a paper towel out of the dispenser – and my tea bag and sweetener came out with it! I guess the woman who refilled the dispensers had come in, laid the stack of paper towels on the shelf on top of my stuff, then picked it all up and put it in the dispenser. But who could ever have imagined that they would be next in line when *I* was the one getting a paper towel, exactly one week later! As my coworker so aptly stated, “If I hadn’t have been here last week I would not believe it!”

    Since then I have felt obligated to believe any stated coincidence, no matter how outlandish!

    1. HerNameWasLola*

      I moved from Michigan to California on a whim a few years ago and for the year I was there I made my living working office temp jobs. At one such place I was getting the quick and dirty tour of the cubicle farm when my bff from grade school popped her head up! We hadn’t seen or talked in almost 20 years but she recognized my voice. Her mom re-married when we were in 4th grade and they moved to a different city in Michigan. We would send letters (pre-internet) and birthday cards for a few years but eventually fell out of touch. She married a military guy and had moved all over. She normally was a stay at home mom but her youngest had started full day school so she decided to get a temp job. Thankfully even after I moved back to Michigan, the internet had been invented and we can keep in better touch.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      Camilla and Lola – great stories.
      Lola – I have chills
      but no good stories :(

    3. DCGirl*

      My husband was employed for many years as a paralegal at a large government contractor (LGC) in the Washington, DC, area. He worked onsite on various contracts with the Department of Justice. At three different jobs, I’ve found out that people I work with worked with him at some point.

      Job 1. Husband and I went to my company picnic, which included people who worked at all locations (I was at HQ). A woman I’d never met walked up to my husband, gave him a great big hug, and was just delighted to see him. They’d worked together at LGC.

      Job 2. My boss was tell war stories about previous projects he’d worked on and, in doing so, mentioned they name of his supervisor. It was an exceedingly unusual name (Glenka), and I remembered here my husband telling stories about her too. So I asked if he’d worked with my husband at LGC, and he’d been my husband’s boss for one six-week project.

      Job 3. I was talking with a coworker, and she mentioned having worked at LGC. I told her my husband had worked at LGC on the A12 contract for years. She said she’d worked on that contract too, but couldn’t remember anyone with my last name. I explained that I’d kept my maiden name and told her my husband’s name. “Did he have really curly hair?” Yes, yes, he does.

    4. not my usual alias*

      I once rented a house that had a detached garage that we didn’t use – the door was difficult to open and it still held some previous resident’s stuff. But one day I went in there, for whatever, reason, and found a coworker’s decades-old driver’s license. He’d lived there with his family when he was a teenager.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This one is kind of vague for reasons, but I think you’ll the the idea and it’s a cool story.

      A woman had an odd family with odd rules. She had a list of family people she was not allowed to speak to. She grew up and went on to have her own life and work. During her work day once in a while she would talk to Nice Man by phone. This man was always polite and pleasant. They were in contact because of work reasons and ironing out specifics of where their jobs intersected. The woman only knew his first name, never learned his last name. Time passed and Nice Man retired and moved on.
      Later she found out Nice Man was her relative. He was on the list of people she had not been allowed to speak to as a child.

      It’s good to see that even master manipulators get undermined by the universe.

      3. Camellia*

        This is awesome, and reminds me of another one. I have a half-brother nine years older than I, same mother but he was raised by his dad’s family in another state. We got acquainted as adults. One day he called me and said they had a new hire at work and she looked exactly like our mom. He said it was such a close resemblance that he just had to approach her and find out who she was and who her family was.

        Aaaaaaand that’s how we found out that our mother had had a daughter (out of wedlock, as they used to say back then) three years before she had him, and she had been adopted by a cousin.

    6. Squeeble*

      At my current job, I have one coworker and one supervisor. All three of us are left-handed, and our birthdays are in consecutive months (July, August, September).

    7. SL #2*

      I started a fellowship right after I graduated college and moved to a new area for it. This was also the summer when Tinder was brand-new all the rage. I downloaded it, and the night before my first day, I went through my options but didn’t swipe to match with anyone.

      The next day, when I was getting introduced at my new company, I recognized one of my new coworkers (from a different department) vaguely. We were in the same graduating class at our alma mater, I thought maybe that’s where I knew him from. But nope, turns out he was one of those Tinder matches that I didn’t swipe for. I’ve never told anyone, but especially not him!

    8. NoMoreMrFixit*

      When I was in high school we had our house redone. Gutted and lifted up with a basement added in. The coincidence was that the contractor doing the job had the same name as me. One day his wife called the house asking to speak to him. My mom answered that I couldn’t come to the phone as I was at school but this was his mother speaking. Everyone had a good chuckle over that one.

    9. Teapot Librarian*

      In my first professional job, I had coworkers MM, WW, and ZZ. I moved on to job two. A few months later, my office hired a new employee: MM. Fast forward two jobs, and who do I work with but WW. Fast forward one more job, and there is ZZ. (My favorite part of this was that WW was my boss at job one, and the capacity in which I worked with her at the later job was one where I was editing her work.)

    10. GC*

      I was involved in interviewing a couple of years ago and we appointed a woman. That night I went to meet my brother and he showed me a picture from the weekend before and the woman was a friend of his.

      Two years later I moved to a new role and the same day I resigned she announced she was moving to the same team same place.

      Also our nieces go to the same school 200 miles away.

    11. Blue_eyes*

      I have a very unusual last name. So unusual that I am the only person in the world with my first and last name combination, even though my first name is fairly common. My husband had a coworker at his first job who had my last name as his FIRST name. Turns out my last name is a sometimes used as first name in another country because of a famous person with my last name who once lived in that country. (Would love to be more specific, but then you would all be able to figure out my last name).

      1. Sami*

        I also am the only person in the world with my first name last name. It’s a common first name (from the 1950s, except I was born in the early 70s) (no not Sami- that is my dog).

      2. Candy*

        I’m the only one with my first name and last name combo too! I’ve only met less than half a dozen other people with my first name (and I’m in my 30s now) and because my great grandfather made up our last name when he immigrated here, everyone in my country with my last name is related to me. FORTUNATELY I married and took the last name of a man who has an uncommon (for North America) last name so I think I’m still the only one with my first name and married last name which pleases me so much.

    12. Mainly lurking*

      About 8 years ago I had a short term contract, where there were four of us working for the same manager. Somehow we realised that Diane was the eldest of three sisters, Alicia was the middle of three sisters, with me the youngest of three sisters, while Will was the youngest of three brothers. I don’t think I ever found out how many siblings our boss Peter had (if any), or his birth order …

      1. Gingerblue*

        It took me a minute to realize that you didn’t mean all from the same family, in some sort of separated-at-birth scenario…

    13. The Rat-Catcher*

      I attended Rural Missouri University. Met friend of friend. Years later, went with roommate on spring break to Chicago. At the top of the Willis Tower, ran into friend of friend. No school events in Chicago or any other logical reason multiple people from the same school would go, other than “cool large city within driving distance.”

    14. YarnOwl*

      I found out this week that a woman I work with also worked with my brother for a few years in a totally unrelated job (we work in insurance, they were working together in retail). It was funny!

    15. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked at a job, my spouse worked at a different job, in different industries. My spouse changed jobs and one of his former co-workers also moved on to different jobs, eventually landing in a different state doing different work. I changed jobs and one of my former co-workers moved to the same state and same company as my spouse’s former co-worker. And same shared cube.

    16. Windchime*

      Let’s say my name is Priscilla Perkins. My ex-husband’s name is Fred Perkins. When I came to my new workplace, I was introduced to my co-worker who also is named Fred Perkins. He said, “Hey, I see we have the same last name. And here is a coincidence — my wife’s name is Priscilla.” I said, “That’s funny because my ex husband’s name is Fred.”

    17. Ramona Flowers*

      There have been four new people in my team within the past year. Molly and I are teapot designers. Lolly is the teapot design manager. Dolly is a teapot inspector, which is on the same grade/seniority as a teapot designer, let’s say grade T.

      All the new hires who work in teapot design (Molly, Lolly and I) are estranged from a brother.

      All the new hires at grade T (Molly, Dolly and I) are estranged from a father.

      Both new hires who do my exact job (Molly and I) are estranged from a father and a brother.

      And despite none of us being oversharers, we all managed to find this out about each other (thanks to some kind of supersonic radar or something).

    18. Levity Not Brevity*

      When online dating was new and a little bit of an unknown quantity, I was nervous about signing my messages with my own first name. My sister lives 2000 miles away so I used her first name, Libby.

      I corresponded with a guy who signed his messages as Jonah. Jonah is my ex-husband’s name so I carefully ensured I was NOT messaging with my ex. Eventually Jonah & I met in person, and I immediately confessed that Libby is actually my sister’s name. He laughed — Jonah is actually his brother’s name. I told him I was relieved since my ex-husband is a Jonah. He laughed again — he was glad my name isn’t really Libby because Libby is his ex-wife’s name.

      So both of us used our siblings’ name in our online name deception, and the other person’s sibling has same name as our ex-spouses.

      And reader, I married that man. Even after all these years together, it can still be confusing. O ur references to sibling/exes have to be super clear – always “Libby your ex / Libby my sister”, etc. We both have kids from our 1st marriages – when they were young, we had to be careful not to say anything even slightly unflattering about our respective siblings in front of them – we didn’t want them to misunderstand & think we were badmouthing their other parent.

  18. GigglyPuff*

    I just want to say thank you to everyone that gave me advice on an all day academic library interview that included dinner the night before, and a presentation. Everything went great! I really surprised myself because I was not nervous at all, and I think because for the first time I wasn’t being forced to get the job (like before all I had were part-time or grant positions), since my current job is adequate. So I was actually very relaxed and took the advice of one of the committee to treat it like a conversation.

    I did end up going out and buying new clothes, which made me soo much more comfortable, and they were great because it was much to hot for a jacket, and the shirt I bought was a really cool fabric. (I turn red really easily so I probably would’ve looked like a boiled lobster and been reassuring people all day that I wasn’t dying.)

    But dear lord was it draining. I ended up saying in the city because I had relatives who showed me around, so I was “on” for about four days and haven’t had to do that in years. Seriously my face and jaw hurt so much from talking and smiling just at the end of the interview day. I still feel exhausted and it’s been a week! Thank goodness for the long weekend, definitely going to spend it sleeping.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m so glad it went well! And I agree- Day long interviews always leave me wanting to nap for days afterwards.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Annnnd I just realized I never sent a follow-up email after the in person interview. I sent one after the phone interview, but I guess between staying in town a few extra days and my brain being goo, I just completely forgot. Oh well, lesson learned, for next time will definitely put a reminder on my calendar.

      I would probably still send one if I knew they weren’t going to make a decision very fast, but they expected to make one by this week or next. So I’m assuming based on that timeline and that’s it a been, probably a little late, right?

    4. GigglyPuff*

      So I just realized I never sent a follow-up email, which I’m blaming on my brain turning to goo and staying with relatives. I’m guessing since they were going to make their decision fairly fast, within a week or two, and it’s already been a week, it’s probably a little late to send one now, right?

      But definitely lesson learned for next time, make a reminder in the calendar.

        1. Bilbiovore*

          send it now. Note something in the conversation that you had to give more thought to .

    5. Chaordic One*

      I’m so glad you got through all of this. Yes, it is draining being “on” all the time. First, for the all-day interview itself and second, for the time spent with your relatives. Be good to yourself now, get some sleep, but also get some exercise, eat healthy and get ready for next week.

  19. Katie the Fed*

    Tragedy has struck in the The Fed household. I can no longer stand the smell or taste of coffee due to this human I’m gestating. It’s been a VERY rough adjustment, and I’m really lethargic without being able to have just a bit of coffee. My head feels like it’s in a vice and I feel really hungover.

    I might try tea just to get a little caffeine. I should probably try to stop, but…ugh. This has been my most unproductive week in a long, long time.

    1. Liet-Kynes*

      Try yerba mate! It’s got a very inoffensive green tea/vegetal sort of flavor, but if you brew it strong it’s got quite a caffeine hit.

        1. LCL*

          Get the mate that that has been smoked, it’s better. And yeah, sample before you drink it all, it can end up very mild tasting and still have a huge jolt of caffeine.

          1. Liet-Kynes*

            This. I had some mate in Argentina that was pale green and tasted like white tea, and I was actually vibrating.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        I don’t mind yerba mate – I’ll pick some up. I used to drink it quite often.

      3. H.C.*

        Another rec for the mate, particularly the roasted/toasted variety which has a more coffee-like character, esp if you take yours with milk

    2. Stephanie*

      When I was working second shift (I’m a morning person, so the end of my shift was rough), I found I got an energy boost from protein that was better than caffeine. If you can stomach it, maybe a protein-heavy breakfast could give you your morning energy boost?

        1. Emily*

          I suggest Greek yogurt for this (such as Fage 2% with the fruit – the fat-free ones are not as good).
          You can whip it into a smoothie if the mood strikes.

            1. saf*

              It’s easy to find in DC, and I assume that’s where Katie the Fed is. Giant has it, as does Yes!.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I don’t understand! I love coffee more than anything in the world! It’s my favorite. I’ve loved coffee since I used to sip it from my dad’s cup. And now it’s turned on me. This is awful. I’m going to guilt this kid about this for YEARS.

        1. ThatGirl*

          One of my friends had the same problem when she was pregnant. It made her really sad that she couldn’t (didn’t want to) drink coffee. You may be relieved to know that she was able to drink it again after having the kiddo.

        2. LadyKelvin*

          This is slightly random, but maybe I can plant a seed in your brain for you to remember in 15 years or so: but I have a theory that if there are foods you can’t eat when you are pregnant your kid won’t like them when they are older. I only have one anecdote so far, but I always ask my pregnant friends trying to collect more data. When my mom was pregnant with me she could not stand the smell nor taste of tomato sauce and I have never liked it in my life. I don’t even like the smell of it. I think its related to her not being able to eat it. Maybe in 20 years you can come back and report if your kiddo likes coffee and then i’ll have another data point :)

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            I know the opposite is true- they actually have now proven that babies “taste” what the mother is eating when she’s pregnant- especially really strong flavors. So whatever she craves, the baby ends up loving to eat! My one BIL is the only one in his family who likes hot peppers, as his mother craved them when she was pregnant with him and ate at the Mexican place across from her office every day of her pregnancy. My brother is the only one who likes green olives, and I love dill pickles more than anyone else in the family- what my mother craved with us, respectively.

            OTOH, I know that my mom couldn’t eat eggs or most meat when she was pregnant with me, and I love eggs.

            1. neverjaunty*

              I don’t know when “they” supposedly proved it, but it emphatically wasn’t the case with my kids.

            2. Pat Benetardis*

              This was the case with my family. I ate a lot of frozen lemon pops when pregnant and that kid loves lemons. She would suck on a lemon as a toddler with no reaction to the bitter taste.

      2. Southern Ladybug*

        I had that with #2. About killed me. I did find in the 3rd trimester I could have a latte. It was so hard!

    5. Jessesgirl72*

      Will the baby allow you to drink cola? That is my go-to caffeine vector, and it’s safe for pregnant women to have moderate amounts of caffeine- safer than the OTC stuff one would normally take for the withdrawal headaches!

      Or, just push through and know that caffeine withdrawal takes about 2 weeks, but then it’s over.

        1. Parenthetically*

          It sure did with mine! A Coke most days at lunch is what got me through weeks 9-13.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          I just had a small coke (the little cans) and I feel SO much better. 80 calories of sugar/caffeine can’t be too bad.

          2. Natalie*

            You’re overall mood & feeling of well-being matters more. So if the small can makes you feel a lot better, I’m certain it’s fine!

    6. Erin*

      If you want to cut out coffee completely I totally respect that, but if you’re open to it, according to What to Expect When You’re Expecting, you can have 200mg of caffeine a day (and the Mayo Clinic says 400) and I think one cup of coffee is about 90mg. Just throwing that out there!! :)

      1. Zinnia*

        Hi Erin – I think you missed this part “I can no longer stand the smell or taste of coffee due to this human I’m gestating.”

      2. Thlayli*

        I actually read a study on this when I got pregnant the first time. A filter coffee is 200mg, a cup of instant is about 90-100. Other sources of caffeine include: tea (depending on the type anything from 10-100mg with green tea nearly as strong as caffeine), chocolate (about 20mg a bar but really variable), red bull (90mg in a 250ml can), coke (32mg a can), Diet Coke (42mg a can) and decaf coffee (about 5-10mg).

        Even tiny amounts of caffeine increase risk of mc but only by tiny amounts, so the risk is not considered significantly increased until you reach 200-400mg a day.

        If you can’t stand the taste then coke is perfect. Depending on which guidelines you follow up to 10 cans a day would be fine for caffeine for baby – but I don’t think anyone could drink that much a day!

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          My FIL drinks Diet Dr Pepper by the 2 liter bottle- easily more than 10 cans/day. :D

        2. Parenthetically*

          I did some research in early pregnancy as well and was really surprised to find out how (relatively) little caffeine is in a can of Coke!

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            My husband and I had an argument when we were still trying- he wanted me to give up my Diet Dr Pepper habit because I’d “have to” when I got pregnant.

            So I did the research, and even Mountain Dew doesn’t have a lot of caffeine in it-little enough that you could still have several a day and be within the safe bounds for pregnancy.

            It’s one of those “Everyone knows” things that is just untrue.

            1. Parenthetically*

              Yes! And it bums me out when a pregnant lady is having a coffee or a coke and has to defend herself against some busybody telling her how to live. (Also: man I love me some Diet Dr. Pepper. It was my favorite before I gave up diet soda.)

              1. Thlayli*

                Grr people need to educate themselves. when I was pregnant I actually got the opposite situation once. I was in a “gourmet” coffee shop and I asked for a decaf coffee and the waiter/owner gave me some cheek about it!I was visibly 7 months pregnant which I actually pointed out (though it was clear as day) and even after that he made a snide comment about my “fake” coffee when he brought it. My husband looked like he was going to punch the guy. If we had been there on our own or if there was anywhere else nearby we would have just walked out.

                1. Thlayli*

                  Oh and there was a woman on my FB pregnancy group who claimed that even drinking one can of red bull once during the entire pregnancy would make your baby strangle himself with his cord.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Any tea with ginger or mint should help soothe your tummy. You can probably find some blends of green or black tea that include them so you have a little boost of caffeine too.

      My personal favorite is Super Ginger from David’s. It’s caffeine free, but it is really tasty and helps with upset stomachs.

    8. Bend & Snap*

      Congrats on Baby Fed! I agree with Coke…a little glass got me through my pregnancy exhaustion.

      I only have one food that I still couldn’t/can’t eat after having my kiddo and it’s something I didn’t like much before anyway. You’ll get your coffee love back!

    9. Parenthetically*

      I am a Tea Drinker in real life, but the first half or so of my pregnancy it tasted HORRIBLE to me! Coke was my go-to, but I’ve also gotten back my taste for tea!

    10. Agile Phalanges*

      If you DO actually want to kick caffeine, know that you’re through the worst of it. The first week is the WORST–headaches, lethargy, fogginess, can’t “brain” at all, etc. The second week is a lot better, but still foggy, and by the third week, I felt normal again. I’ve kicked caffeine twice (in an effort to lose weight–I like my coffee SWEET but hate artificial sweeteners), and it sucked so much that now when I do indulge in a coffee drink, I take it decaf just so I don’t become addicted again. Good luck with the gestating, caffeine or no caffeine. :-)

    11. John B Public*

      Does caffeine cross the placental barrier? Only asking because you might be giving your newborn withdrawals =D. I wonder if they make caffeinated formula…

    12. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      If you are able to take tylenol, I’d recommend that. I think the headache is the worst part of caffeine withdrawal.

      And to commiserate, I found myself completely unable to even think about chicken while pregnant. It had previously been the only meat that I ate on a regular basis. It was a tough adjustment. I’ve never been able to go back to enjoying it like I did prior to pregnancy (and my baby is almost 14!). Just too many times it triggered morning (all-day) sickness.

    14. Caffiend*

      There is also caffeinated water available – I keep it on hand for when I just need a no-fuss caffeine source and don’t want to mess with coffee. The brand I get is avitae, with 125mg per 16.9 oz bottle. It’s on the regular shelves in my local grocery stores, near the bottled/canned coffee drinks.

    15. onnellinen*

      I share your pain! I am 16 weeks pregnant, and have been off coffee for at least two months. The adjustment was *rough* – dealing with morning sickness and caffeine withdrawal was pretty bad. The smell of coffee still makes me queasy, so I dare not try it again yet.

      I go with a breakfast tea and home, and ginger lemon or mint when I get to work. Not sure I’ll ever forgive the future-baby for this one, though.

    17. Episkey*

      My taste for coffee came back in the 2nd trimester. I didn’t even want to look at it up to about 13 weeks — I couldn’t even stand the thought of hot tea — was completely unappetizing to me.

      But then, around 13-14 weeks, the smell of my husband’s coffee started smelling good to me again. So there is hope.

      I did give up caffeine completely before I got pregnant, so I just drink decaf coffee — but now that I’m firmly in my 2nd trimester I feel more comfortable about having some. I’d rather get it in iced tea, though, so that’s what I occasionally will have.

  20. T3k*

    Does anyone have any advice/tips on how to keep oneself composed during an interview (or a good way to explain if you start crying) right after a loved one has passed? I have an interview in the middle of next week but today we had to put down my dog and I don’t know how I’ll be feeling by the time of the interview, and I’d rather not re-schedule it.

    2. Mim*

      I had an important interview the day I found out my niece and nephew had passed away. It was too late to reschedule and I already felt like I wasn’t the greatest candidate, so I didn’t want to call in last minute. The only advice I can give, and I’m not sure I can even explain this well, is to compartmentalize it in your brain. Like, “Okay, right now I’m going to hold this grief separate from myself, I will focus solely on the interview. And when it is over, the grief will still be there and I can grieve properly at that time.” I got through the interview okay, didn’t cry, though was prepared to offer my apologies if I did. I also didn’t bring it up, I felt it wouldn’t have belonged in a professional discussion and would have just made everyone fell awkward. I still might be in the running for the job, last I heard they were trying to decide if they wanted to do a second interview or just hire me directly.

      1. T3k*

        I get what you mean. I’ve been focusing this morning/afternoon on really reading over Alison’s advice for interviewing and it’s helped keep my mind off crying. And hopefully I’ll be in a better state come interview day and my eyes won’t be all puffy and red. Oh, and good luck on the job!

    3. Bend & Snap*

      You can do it. I had an important client meeting like 12 hours after my dog died suddenly and I cried before but held it together during. My boss at the time wouldn’t let me take any time off so I just cried at work.

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Oh, no, I am so sorry.

      A number of years ago, I was in the process of a pretty large mass interviewing process for a prestigious management training program. Another friend/colleague of mine was also interviewing for this program at the same time. The timing was the day after the mass shootings at a large university, of which my friend was an alumna, and recent enough that she had friends who were killed. Needless to say, she was a complete wreck during these interviews.

      In her case, the mass shooting had been all over the news, so the second they glanced at her resume and saw where she went to school, the interviewers knew her situation, so it was no secret. She got a position (as did I – actually, I didn’t know her before the program started – she told me about this afterward), and most of the interviewers she met with were sympathetic. I remember her telling me that she was just making a point to be prepared to be fully present and, if anything, use this as an opportunity to take her mind off of her sadness.

    5. Mephyle*

      Condolences. The middle of next week is likely to be better. I don’t mean ‘better’ like feeling less sad nor feeling on the road to ‘getting over it’ but chances are you will no longer be in that stage of either crying or liable to start crying all the time. I know everyone is different, but for me it lasted three days.

  21. SmartH20*

    When interviewees show 15-30 minutes early, how do you handle? Let them sit in the lobby until the meeting time or take them early? Sometimes I’m available but 30 minutes early can really throw me off. Sometimes I’m not available and I’ll have 10 people come by and tell me someone has been sitting waiting for me for awhile.

    1. AlphabetSoupCity*

      I’d just make them wait. I think at more than 5-10 minutes early it’s rude to expect someone to see you. That’s why Allison recommendeds sitting somewhere else and waiting. The multiple people alerting you is annoying though, not sure about that.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      If you’re busy right up until the scheduled interview time, I don’t think there’s any problem with having the interviewee sit in the lobby and wait.

      I think a lot of candidates arrive early to make a good impression, but expect to potentially have to wait for their interviewer.

    3. Deep Breaths*

      It depends. I usually like a few minutes to review the person’s information before meeting, so if they’re super early, I do make them wait. (They don’t know whether you’re at your desk or in a meeting, so I don’t feel it’s exceptionally rude to make them wait). But, if I’m ready and they’re 5-10 minutes early, I’m fine with starting a bit early.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        This reminds me of an interview I had earlier this year. I work at a school and our day starts at 8am. We’d send a candidate his schedule (it was a day of several interviews) with the first one listed at 9am but didn’t explicitly state he should not arrive at 8am.

        I get in at 7:45am and he’s there. I think I was so flustered we ended up sort of moving the day up an hour but I remember thinking “for a job that requires a lot of logistics and attention to details, this isn’t a good sign.”

    4. Anxa*

      If I was ever that early, it would be because of some logistical reason, like not wanting to sit outside in the rain or humidity and get a baby hair halo or that I’m already nervous and can’t bear standing in the heat and sweating through my clothes.

      I would assume that they wouldn’t want me to waiting outside or anything, but I wouldn’t want them to think I was expecting them to adjust my interview time just because I got there early! I’d be happy to wait!

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        Same here. It can be hard to time arrival exactly and being late is so Not Done that I’d rather err on the side of being annoyingly early. Doesn’t mean I expect you to see me right then!

        1. Lison*

          Where I work we are a bit outside town and there is nowhere to park outside the complex so you have to drive in and then if you don’t go straight to security they get antsy because part of their job is making sure unknown people don’t get access. If you’re only 30 mins early turning around might make you late because of traffic on the way back into town. I guess the best thing to do would be introduce yourself to security but say I’m a lot early so is it ok if I sit in my car for 20 minutes and then you can announce I’ve arrived. Security are nice people theyl would probably do it once they knew you were supposed to be there and they could see you weren’t wandering around the place.

    5. Seal*

      Let them wait. I’m fine with candidates showing up a few minutes early, but anything more than 10 minutes reflects badly on the candidate. At that point, they need to wait in their car or find a coffee shop. A few years ago, I had a candidate show up 20 minutes early for an interview. Due to how our office area was set up, there was no comfortable place for her to wait and I was tied up with something else. So she wound up sitting awkwardly in a semi-public space surrounded by other cubicles while I frantically scrambled to finish what I was doing. The interview wound up being awkward as well and she didn’t get the job.

    6. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      As an interviewee, I would never expect the interviewer to meet with me before the set upon time, though if I am a bit early (10-15min, I would find somewhere else to wait if it was more than that) I try to mention that I realize that I’m early eg: “Hi, Sunshine here to meet with Tina Smith at 1:30pm. I know I’m a bit early – is it ok if I just take a seat in the lobby?”.

      This all to say, I would not feel the least bit guilty about making someone wait until the set upon time for the interview. Though, the multiple people stopping by is quite annoying, I’m sure – I don’t have anything to offer for that. I also do judge anyone who shows up more than 15-20min early as not having an appropriate grasp on office norms.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I would make them wait. It’s discourteous to show up that early. What you’re supposed to do is get there 30 minutes early and then walk around or go to a local coffee shop or just sit in your car… and then actually arrive to the interview only 5 minutes early.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        These things aren’t always possible. Not everywhere has coffee shops and some people take the bus- in fact, I’d say people are MORE likely to be early because they didn’t want to risk transit running late, than if they drove- and then most people would wait in their car, without having to be told to do so.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I take the bus, and I hate coffee shops. I wasn’t offering a comprehensive list of things to do. Honestly, I’ve sat in the shade of a tree in a parking lot when I didn’t have a car.

        2. Howdy Do*

          I think it’s just a little too rote to say “find somewhere else to be!” depending on where you’re located. I honestly have never interviewed anywhere with a coffee shop nearby and while I usually do just wait in my car, not everyone is traveling by car. Interview clothes are not the most comfortable and so sitting or standing outside in the hot/cold/rain seems like a bad idea (I’m sweating enough when I come to a job interview!) Not to mention, even if you try to clarify the information, it isn’t always totally clear where the person you’re checking in with is going to be located, if they have to refer you to another person, so on and so forth. So would you rather make your arrival known a little earlier than usually accepted or take the chance that the information you’ve arrived may not make it to the interviewer until much closer to your scheduled time.

          Basically, I’m saying that just as interviewees should do their best to not get there too early, interviewers should be reasonable about if there is anywhere to wait nearby, are most applicants likely taking public transportation, is it 100% clear where they need to check in, etc.

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            I think insisting that it’s good universal advice at least indicates a little tone deafness to those who don’t live in moderate climates.

    9. Annie Mouse*

      I had an assessment for a job where I turned up about 25 minutes early. I was more than happy to wait. The parking at the location is terrible and I’ve been caught out with a parking ticket there before so I wasn’t taking any chances this time. I’d left early and found an alternative parking spot about a mile and a half away. I walked down, google maps told me it would take about 30 minutes. It turned out to be less than a mile and took 10 minutes! Normally I would have waited outside but it was 0.5 degrees Celsius and after a few minutes I was freezing so had to go in and wait in the lobby. I think they’re used to it there though because of the parking issue.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Whether I drive or take transit, if I’m headed downtown, I leave lots of space for things to go wrong. Parking can be impossible! And no, I can’t always wait outside either- too cold, too hot, too windy, or too rainy are all strong possibilities here, depending on the day (all in the same day a couple weeks ago- it went from 80 to 50 in half an hour!)

    10. Girasol*

      Let them wait but do forgive them. If one doesn’t know how long it will take in midday traffic to get to an interview, it’s best to leave early and risk a wait in the lobby than to leave later and risk not making it on time.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        Plus, sitting in a car as many have suggested, only works in some seasons if you have functional AC/heating in your car.

      2. Anxa*

        I agree. Especially because you never know if you’ll have to fill out forms, go to another building, etc.

        And yes, if you have an organized hiring system then it may seem a little insulting for an applicant not to trust that you’ve given them all the necessary information, but you really can’t blame an applicant for not fully trusting there will be no surprises.

    11. BRR*

      Wait. I would say something along the lines of taking care of something and you’ll get them at your scheduled time.

  22. Jan Levinson*

    How can express to my trainee things that he can improve on, without sounding overly brute?

    For some background, I am a woman in my early 20’s who recently received a promotion. I am now training my replacement (in a customer service type position), who is a man in his mid-20’s. Although he is a couple years older than me, this is his first professional job outside of college. Because I am also young and still fairly new to the workforce, I am hesitant to correct him on professional norms that he seems to be missing.

    One thing specifically that he does that seems unprofessional to me – when he takes phone calls and needs my help in assisting the customer, instead of putting the customer on hold and asking me a question, he’ll keep the phone up to his ear with the customer on the line, and whisper to me “such and such customer is asking for X. How do I do that?” I’ve mentioned to him before in general conversation that he can always put the customer on hold and ask for my help, but I have trouble bringing myself to point out specific examples in which he has failed to do this as they happen. I’d like to say something like “that call was an example of when you should have put the customer on hold so that the customer isn’t hearing our conversation,” but for some reason, I’m too hesitant to do this. I fear that I’ll be seen as a “mean” trainer, and that he won’t take me seriously anyway because I am young (which seems silly because he is a very nice guy). I know that it would be to his benefit to bring this (and other issues) to his attention. How can I gain confidence in my training abilities, and feel like I have the authority to correct my trainee when need be?

    1. Marillenbaum*

      I would frame it less like you are reprimanding him, and that you are teaching. It’s true, and just because he’s a little older doesn’t mean you aren’t the expert here. If he’s as nice as you say, he’ll take feedback in the spirit in which it’s intended and work on making the changes needed.

    2. LCL*

      Stop worrying about sounding too tough. If it is your job, show him in the moment, in a respectful way.
      Example: next time he covers the phone and asks for help, pick up the phone and say ‘this is Jan helping new guy, may I put you on hold for a moment to look this up, or should I call you back? Your number please?’

      If possible, always train in the moment with factual corrections. Then explain what you are doing. I know I write very snarky, but when I train people I don’t speak to them like that.

      You have the authority because the company gave it to you. That’s only half of it though-your half is to take it. You can’t be a trainer or in any kind of authority and worry about being seen as mean. Of all the other persons I worked with that have the same job I do, the one that was the most hated as a manager was by far the nicest person. He believed you could lead people to the correct way to do things instead of telling them, and thought it was immoral to just impose rules on people without their consent. The physical part of this job is dead serious and has some practices that must be followed, his kindness was seen as indecisiveness and cruelty.

      1. KR*

        Or even, ” Trainer, what do I do?” “Tell the customer you’re putting them on a brief hold and we’ll talk about how to handle this.” That way,the customer only has to talk to one person and employee gets practice telling people he’s putting them on hold.

    3. olives*

      I think the missing authorit here might mostly be a psychological thing on your side!

      When you’re in the position of training someone else to do a job you’ve done, you *get* the authority to make exactly the sort of comment you want to make. That’s true regardless of whether the trainee seems to have more experience in other ways: you are personally more experienced doing this job, at this company, with these conventions, in this place.

      Your script is perfect. Don’t let yourself be intimidated – remember that training him, right now, is *your* job and you are the person best equipped to do it.

    4. Fictional Butt*

      I think it’s important to re-focus how you’re thinking about this. Your main priority is not to be nice to him; your priority is to train him, and his job relies on you training him appropriately. It is much more “mean” to let someone fail than it is to help them. Really internalize that–you’re not his friend, you’re his trainer, and he wants to be trained.

      I think it can be helpful also to imagine switching roles in your head. Have you ever had a boss/coach/teacher/personal trainer who didn’t give you clear and immediate feedback, or seemed afraid to point out when you did something wrong? How did you feel about that person? Were they helpful? Did you like and respect them? Do you want to emulate that person?

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        This. Your job is to train him. Thus, your job is to correct him. By not correcting him you are failing to do your job. That may sound a bit harsh, but it might help to think of it this way. Focus on how not doing these things because you don’t want to be perceived as ‘mean’ could very well result in you being seen as ‘doing a bad job.’ Because really, that’s what’s happening. You’re seeing an issue and purposefully choosing to help your trainee by correcting them. In the end, correcting them is much kinder.

      2. Pearly Girl*

        And as far as the age thing, there may come a day when you train a 50- or 60-year-old. Age isn’t a factor here. Your confidence and authority are what’s needed.

    5. Shiara*

      I’d suggest first making sure he knows how to put the customer on hold, just in case he doesn’t. Also does your phone system have a way to mute briefly instead of putting on hold entirely? I’d try reframing it in your head from “professional norms he’s missing” to “company policy on phone customer support it is my job to impart to him.” The way phone trainees are expected to handle customers, etc varies by company quite a bit, and appealing to the Company as an authority may help you feel more confident.

      Is the problem that he doesn’t have enough experience to determine when he can get a quick whispered answer vs a put the customer on hold question, or should he always be putting the customer on hold?

      If the former, I would find a way to communicate in the moment that you’ll explain as soon as he puts the customer on hold, whether via a hand signal, flash card, or verbally. So say “Hey, you’re getting to the point where sometimes a quick whispered question is fine, but other times the more detailed answer means you should put the customer on hold while we talk. If you need to put the customer on hold, I’ll let you know by method.” And then stick to it.

      If the latter, you should spell that out. “I’ve noticed you don’t always put the customer on hold when asking me a question. Policy/Boss’s preference/whatever is that we always put the customer on hold if we need to spend time asking someone else, or even if looking it up may take a bit. The standard script is “Let me put you on hold while I look that up a moment” (or whatever your company’s approved language is) and then (insert hold process on your phone system here). Then you can ask me the question, and pick the customer back up when you’re ready by (insert hold retrieval process)”

      Something like this is really ideally something corrected in the moment. If he’s asking you for help and has not put the customer on hold, you can refuse to answer until he does so.

    6. StrikingFalcon*

      Nothing you described sounds remotely mean. It sounds like he’s not translating “you can put the customer on hold” to “you should put the customer on hold” so you’ll need to come out and say it that way. It’s kinder to be direct in training than to let him continue to make mistakes. Really!

      2. Parenthetically*

        This is really important. It’s really common for women especially to find themselves overusing softened, hedged constructions like “you can do x” when we really mean “you must do x.”

        “For next time, when you have a question, standard procedure is to say to the customer, ‘Sure, let me look that information up for you, may I put you on hold briefly?’ And then press this button and ask me/look in the wiki/consult the manual, then press this button and say, ‘Thanks so much for holding, Ms. Thompson, it’s actually form 432 and I can send that through to you right now if you like, or you can find it on our website.’ Have you got that? It’s a pretty simple procedure but it’s important to mute/hold the conversation rather than just holding the phone away from your mouth.”

    7. HR Hopeful*

      I am also a trainer in a call center and have faced this issue several times. After the call, I nicely explain that from now on if they have a question on the phone to politely ask the customer if they can hold, put them on hold and then ask. I let them know nicely the first and second time but if a third time comes up I am a little firmer. You do not have to be mean , you just have to make sure they understand the ‘why’ and usually they will get it. If they are still not listening to you,It could be a respect issue which might need to be brought to a supervisor or you can just tell them directly. I like to be very honest with my trainees that way they can do the best job possible and there is no confusion.

    8. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Look at it this way: You’re letting your desire to be nice actually harm him a bit, because you’re not being direct with him, which means he’s missing important information about how to do the job. It’s actually nicer to be clear and straightforward (which means not framing must-do’s as suggestions). Better wording: “When X happens, you need to do Y.” “Please put the customer on hold next time before asking me questions.”

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Use the tone of voice you would use if you were explaining something to a friend or relative. You don’t need to use an angry voice. Next step, to help yourself sound even less angry use more words.

      There is a difference between:
      “Push the HOLD button!”
      and
      “Put people on hold before asking your question.”
      In the latter example, it’s just a couple more words and the tone changes entirely.

      Timing helps also. If you say something the moment you see it that is better than mentioning it three days later. He will think you stewed on it for three days. If you mention it in the moment this gives the idea that it has been said and it is over, as opposed to dragging on for three days. In these instances your actions indicate it’s not a big deal because you resume normal conversation immediately after the correction.

    10. Sami*

      It’s a cycle: for him to do his job well, you need to do your job well. Presumably you want him to succeed, so you, too, need to succeed.

    11. Aquatic Bird*

      This has been me in the past. I’m a customer service trainer, have been since my early 20’s, and have trained new supervisors, managers, and people older and younger than myself. Starting out, I had these same feelings, but with one particular issue, I didn’t correct the agent during training and she later got chewed out by a customer, then my manager definitely brought it to my attention that I had missed this. I’ve found the more matter of fact I am (in a friendly tone of voice) the more effective it tends to be. I find myself naturally using the same tone and wording when I’m confirming information to someone who’s thinks they know the answer but want to be sure. Of course, this is a first time, possibly second time thing – after that, it changes a bit, but that’s another issue.

      Funnily enough, they’re closing my location and I’ll start training my replacement and the new batch of regular agents for the new location in two weeks.

  23. JaneB*

    Following on from this morning’s knitting at work thread, anyone want to share the little things which have “professional optics” (i.e. are considered perfectly normal and acceptable in most work contexts) but which drive them nuts/distract them in meetings?

    For me, it’s people looking at their phones every five minutes (especially if they then laugh or grin at the phone…), and Beverage Loudness – slurping, tea-spoon tinking and the like.

    Anyone else, or am I just especially irritable and ill-suited for anything other than a life in a solitary hermitage (with good internet)?

    1. SarahKay*

      Finger-tapping on the desk. And, admittedly not in meetings, but people walking through the main office while clicking their fingers! It makes me want to tape their hands up, mummy-style.

    2. k*

      Meeting snackers. It really bugs me when people eat during meetings. Personally I don’t like eating in front of people unless their eating too, so I probably notice it more than others do. I get distracted by food smells, the sounds of crunching or rustling packaging, or having to wait for a person to finish chewing so they can talk. In reality these things probably aren’t as noticeable as I make them out to be and no one else it bothered. Just a weird pet peeve I suppose.

    3. Michelle*

      We have this one coworker (he’a program manager) who brings his iPad into our monthly event meetings. He plays/reads on it until it’s his time to speak/present, then when he’s finished, he goes back to playing/reading on his iPad.

      I know that if I did that, I would be “spoken” to, but this guy has never been spoken to. I dislike these lengthy meetings, but I at least pay attention.

    4. LCL*

      I can be that annoying coworker. I love me my clicky pens! I do control this at meetings because it annoys people but it’s a struggle…

      1. writelhd*

        Yeah I was going to post clicky pens, I have several coworkers who do that big time without realizing it.

          1. Windchime*

            I actually got some tape and taped the button on a coworkers clicky pen so he couldn’t click it anymore. Clickity-clickity-clickety, on and on. Drove me nuts!

      2. Ashie*

        I’m just a fidgeter in general, so anything I might be holding is subject to clicking or bending or whatever. I try to curtail the chewing but beyond that I just can’t stop. (And I’m with the knitter, if I’m not doing something I have a hard time focussing.)

        1. Jaydee*

          There are whole categories of types of pens that I can’t have anymore because I break the clip on them or chew up the cap or take them apart and get ink all over my hands or….

          Thankfully I’m not much of a clicker, but the number of times I’ve been talking to someone and fidgeting with my pen and had the clip snap off is too high to count.

    5. Mim*

      I had a guy near me that would hum/whistle tunelessly ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Drove me bananas. I even went out and bought noise canceling headphones. But the sound would weasel its way in somehow. Since our office liked to shuffle desks around fairly often, I ended up in another area. And then found out that my new office mate was worse. She was about my age, late 20’s. Now, I have always believed that when people criticized young women’s voices for “uptalk” it was largely a sexist complaint. But I’ve never encountered someone who ended every single sentence with a question mark. I guess it didn’t really help that she came across as really unprofessional in many other ways, lots of hitting on the two married men that sat near her, lots of personal details she would just broadcast to no one in particular, constantly announcing that she didn’t know how to do her job and she’d just have one of the guys do it for her. I would have paid money to move back with whistling dude again!

      1. Free Meerkats (formerly Gene)*

        Sheepishly raises hand.

        I’m a tuneless whistler when I’m deep in thought or concentrating. I’ve told my wife to let me know when it bothers her, she says it lets her know I’m happy and absorbed. Coworkers, not so much…

      2. AwkwardKaterpillar*

        There are several people here that are hummers and whistlers. It drives me absolutely insane. Whistling just drives me bananas – it’s such a sharp and unpleasant sound. They will do it as they walk through the department. Two of them also will sing under their breaths or hum. It drives me absolutely insane.

    6. Kowalski! Options!*

      Continuous commenting /joking/asides when the person speaking at that moment isn’t looking for any input. Especially when you know that the continuous commenting /joking/asides/don’t contribute anything to what the speaker is saying, and the person is probably doing it to make herself (oops!) look sexy or clever (not that I’m thinking of anyone specifically…I swear….)

    7. motherofdragons*

      I find it sooo rude and distracting when people are on their phones during a meeting. We gave an in-person training for people all over the state recently, and people were constantly on their phones! I get needing to check e-mails while you’re away for emergencies and such, but staring at your phone for several minutes at a time does not seem like an as-needed-for-emergencies situation. When planning for next year’s training I did suggest that we make an announcement that folks need to put their phones away because it’s distracting.

      1. Stephanie*

        I had a professor do this during a meeting. “Well, my husband sometimes throws erasers at his students, so I won’t do that at least.”

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      One of my coworkers sighs constantly. I know she doesn’t like her job and doesn’t have enough work to do, but she sighs constantly and sometimes makes complain-y noises. It drives me insane!

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        Oh, man, I feel your pain. I used to share an office with a sigh-er. It got to the point that I had to physically restrain myself from chucking something across the room at her each of the 20+ times a day she would do it.

      2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I used to do this. I had NO IDEA. It was so automatic. Thankfully, I shared an office with a couple of people that pointed it out to me and I think I’ve got it mostly under control. I wasn’t even sighing because I was bored or upset. It was more like, “ok here we go – let’s figure this problem out”. Like I was centering myself before diving into whatever I was working on and because we got interrupted so often I was doing it a lot.

      3. AwkwardKaterpillar*

        I have a coworker that will sign deeply everytime someone asks her a question. It makes it seem like she’s so irritated to have to talk to anyone. I just want to know whether Jimmy at Teapots Inc was called back, I’m not asking you to make a decision about invading the next town over or something.

    9. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      I’m endlessly annoyed by what I like to think of as the “super agreeable about things they’re not really involved in” person. This would be the person in a meeting that continuously nods and makes those little ‘mmm-hmm’ sounds when someone else is talking, usually about a project or something that super-agreeable person isn’t involved in. It always makes me think they’re just sucking up, or trying to seem more important/knowledgeable than they are. I just want to shout at them to SHUT UP AND STOP FREAKING NODDING NONSTOP!!!!!

      1. Actuarial Octagon*

        I had to train myself to stop doing this because it annoys me when other people do it as well. I would always smile and nod when the speaker looked in my direction because otherwise, the eye contact made me feel super nervous and awkward. This was especially true in college but I’ve managed to break the habit.

        1. JulieBulie*

          I don’t feel weird about nodding if the speaker is actually looking at me, or has asked a question and is now looking around the room to gauge our reaction.

          But there really are people who react very elaborately to everything the speaker says, whether the speaker is looking for a reaction or not. I don’t know what is going on with people who do this.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        omg. There was one person who would say random things out loud. “That’s right.”, “Aww, that is too bad..”, “No way, really?”
        You would think the speaker was in a private conversation with this person. I often wondered if she noticed no one else was doing this. I was kind of dismayed when the speaker let this go on meeting after meeting.

      3. The Rat-Catcher*

        I’m not verbal, but I am a nodder. What made me stop was seeing it on videotape. I looked like a bobblehead and it just looked out of place and weird. Since then, I’ve made an effort not to do it.

    10. Sneezy the Dwarf*

      My entire team is (imo) hung up on politeness and not stepping on toes, partly because we have a few who are particularly sensitive to that sort of thing.

      So if one of us sneezes, there’s a chorus of “bless you”s. Totally normal and acceptable, totally friendly and polite.

      Problem is, people commenting on my sneezes is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I know it’s irrational, I just hate hearing a round of “bless you!” chirped at me every time I have an involuntary reflex. And heaven forbid I sneeze more than once, because then I have to keep hearing it, and eventually people start laughing.

      I don’t say anything, because I know I’m the one who is crazy about this, but it drives me NUTS. I try to hold in sneezes sometimes just because I can’t stand having it commented on.

      1. TL -*

        My team (who are all lovely coworkers!) are very, very polite and our Slack (on my phone) is always notifying me because someone is saying, “thank you!” or “you’re welcome!” or “Okay, great!”
        It. drives. me. crazy!
        (but what a lovely thing to be driven crazy by, honestly.)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        My allergy sneezes come in threes. I tell them to wait to the end.

        I do have one friend who says, “oh you are so attention seeking”. It’s a joke. sigh.

        1. JulieBulie*

          I used to work with a double-sneezer. We all knew to wait for the second one before saying anything.

          Once, he sneezed three times and I said he could owe me the fourth one.

    11. WellRed*

      Alison seemed like she was OK with the idea of knitting (depending on your circs) but I wondered if she changed her mind at all after so many commenters said they would find it incredibly distracting or rude. I cant stand meeting eaters and all the rustling of packaging and food wrappers.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Well, not exactly! I just said that it will vary by office (so you have to know your own office), and there are more offices where it’s not okay than ones where there are.

      2. Good Afternoon!*

        I worked at a place that required a lot of knowledge of needle crafting so most meetings had 60-70% of the participants doing some sort of needle craft.

        We had a speaker request we not as she felt we weren’t being attentive. Since it was the 3 or 4th time she gave a presentation there we were pretty offended given that the knitters were the biggest participants. It was a slap in the face that she obviously wasn’t paying attention to her audience.

        Note: I can knit without looking and have never hesitated to stop to take notes or ask a question during lectures or classes. I’ve never encountered another person that had an issue with it. BUT! I wouldn’t do it at a work function outside of that very unique job. The optics for a woman crafting while at work aren’t something I’m willing to risk in my new male dominated field. They would say it was fine, but it would too likely to be viewed negatively instead of neutral/positively.

    12. Me2*

      Pocket change jinglers. Not so much of a problem at seated meetings but when someone stops by your desk or office and jingles away the entire time, aargh!

    13. Pwyll*

      Consensus-pushers. Building consensus is great in a meeting, but it’s not always appropriate. I used to work with someone who would halt meetings in order to make sure everyone was in agreement unless everyone made agreement noises after every subject, from essential to mundane. As in, “Christina I didn’t see you nod, is Sal’s okay for lunch today? Have we all agreed? We can change it if anyone objects . . . Tom? Okay Sal’s it is then. Wait, Joanie do you have any concerns? Okay great.”

      1. Windchime*

        OMG. At old job, a couple of us would run over to Starbucks in the morning. One of the people then decided that we should include everyone, so then it became a Big Damn Deal. “Where is Scott? Is he coming? Dorothy is coming but she is in the rest room and Joe says he will be here in a minute. Fred? Starbucks? Sally? We are going to Starbucks, want to go? No? Want us to pick up something for you? Are you sure?”

        It was like planning an expedition instead of walking 100 feet down the sidewalk.

    14. JustaTech*

      The coworker who compulsively looks at/cleans his phones (two!) during meetings. He’s not actually reading anything, just opening and closing the covers.

      The coworker who falls asleep in 5 person meetings.

    15. BRR*

      People who bring their laptops to meetings and say it’s for note taking but are clearly goofing off.

    16. Gingerblue*

      Gum. I cannot stand people who chew gum. I hate the slurping sounds, I hate the smell, I hate the assumption that no one minds listening to them chew. I. Hate. Gum.

  24. bassclefchick*

    Well, my temp assignment is just about over. I was supposed to transition to a different department, but they really don’t have any work for me either.

    I just feel like such a failure because I’ve been a temp for 6 years and cannot seem to find or keep a permanent job. I just don’t know what to do anymore.

    1. Mim*

      Don’t feel like a failure, I know lots of people that are in your exact situation. It seems to me, at least in my area, that employment has really changed since the recession. In my area, there were massive layoffs during the recession, hitting almost every type of business. When they started hiring again, they would only hire temps from temp agencies. My old company employs probably about 50% of the full time staff they did in 2008. The rest of those positions, that had been full time before, are now contractors. Some companies have policies where they will only employ you as a temp for 12-18 months, before you have to leave for at least 6 months before you can come back. The idea is that if you temp for a place long enough, you have some claim to be called a employee of the company. And these are STEM jobs, where you need a bachelors at the absolute minimum and masters is standard.

      I left the job market to take care of my kids when they were young. One has special needs and it just worked better for one of us to stay home, with all the doctor appts, etc. Now I’m trying to get back into the market, and I feel your pain. A few temp jobs here and there, but no one is really willing to hire full time. If they do, it’s usually someone who has been there part time for a while.

    2. Kalliopesmom*

      I worked temp jobs for years and know the feeling. You just have to keep searching and you will find the place that works best for you. Working temp shows your adaptability to different environments, use this as a strength. Take the time to work on other skills when you are in between temp jobs. You can do this!

      1. Anna Held*

        I suspect it’s like unemployment. I was unemployed way longer than I ever thought I would be. They assume something’s wrong with you if you’re not employed in a great job — so you need to be fully employed in order to become fully employed. It’s maddening. All I can tell you is to work every person and opportunity you can think of, and brush up your materials the best you can. So much of it is luck. But as Louis Pasteur put it, chance favors the prepared mind!

        I agree that the job market has changed and it’s harder to find a good, white collar, well paying job. You might have to take something lesser-than to get a proper job, to lead to the next proper job. That’s the path I’m following. It might not be good advice, but sometimes you just need to get out of the rut!

    3. Beansidhe*

      I’m sorry you feel this way. However working for an agency is still like a full time job in that you work for them and still to a degree represent them, plus most offer health care now. Some even offer paid holidays and accrued vacation time after so many hours. That said, it is so cool to be able to check out different companies with no real commitment on your part!! I temped for a year and my response to nosy co workers was always “I have a full time job, thank you” since I actually did. Albeit with an agency. My second response to nosey coworkers who wanted to know if I wanted to be officially hired was always “I don’t know, I’m using this time to see if I like this” like interviewing your interviewer. While you may want something more permanent, please consider not downplaying what you do! It’s hard, it takes skills to fit in anywhere and hit the ground running!! If anything pat yourself on the back, you rock!

  25. Nittygrittybits*

    So I’ve been at my job for about 8 yrs, in the field for 10+, and I’m starting to work for a certification that will significantly increase me and the office’s standing. Thing is, now that I’m doing that, I’m finding a lot of stuff that we’re doing a little wrong. I only have 1 peer and we’re not really chummy, so when I mention what should ideally be done so that we’re not using technology and terminology more than 15 yrs old, it gets blown off. My bosses think that my getting this certification is great since it’ll put us on the map but they have absolutely no interest in moving forward on the nitty gritty. Do I just put up with being the one person who does the job differently (and correctly)?

    1. NoNameYet*

      I would say yes to your question, with the “but” that if you do the correct things and can demonstrate why they’re correct through your actions, your peer might either get the message on his/her own that they need to adapt or they might be told by your bosses to adapt.

      At least in my field and in my experience I’ve found that presenting something you’ve learned is not enough to change the tide. I’ve had to just go ahead and implement things to really show their worth. I’ve dragged some bosses and coworkers along until they were converts this way!

    2. Anono-me*

      As long as your professional standing is not impacted, I would just make sure your boss and coworker both know that you are willing to share some of the new techniques and leave it at that.

      However I can see two ways that this might hurt you professionally, that tough may want to consider.

      1. Will your company use your brand new certificate to cover all of the teapots it produces, even the ones done by old-school coworker? If so, this could have a significant impact on your professional standing. (If your company says “We use the most recent best practices in all our teapots. Nittygrittybits is a certified teapot designer.” Then shows me a bumch of 20th century teapots. I am going to wonder how good Nittygrittybits is at her job.)

      2. If you are the only one at your organization interested in doing it better faster stronger, will you stagnate?

      Congratulations on the certificate.

    3. Mints*

      I think it depends a lot on the type of certificate. Is it like “this is more efficient therefore recommended” or “the old way is highly unsafe”? Also the above point – are they using your certificate to certify the whole company? If so, that’d be worth pushing back more, but *shrug* how much

    4. Not So NewReader*

      There doesn’t seem to be any point in getting the certification if the company does not use it.

      The first thing the jumps at me is what happens to YOU if you know you are supposed to be doing x, y and z, yet you don’t because your company does not do x, y and z?
      In my work if one person is told that is considered the same as telling everyone and everyone must conform to the reg/standard/whatever.
      If you, yourself, are going to be in any kind of jeopardy for backlash, this is where I would start.
      “Boss, I have been told that we need to do x, y and z. If we are not doing these things then they can pull my credentials. So this will put the company back at square one where we do not have a person with this certification.”

      If this is not the case, then I would ask the bosses what you are asking here. Are you supposed to continue doing things the way you learned they are being done currently and what about the work that is not handled in that manner? How would they like you to handle that disparity?

    5. Sam Foster*

      How much does it matter re: “the correct way”? A lot of the things I am certified in are “frameworks” that need to be adapted to a particular company. Is it possible that the training material is “academic” requiring adaptation or is it a proscribed methodology that has to be followed exactly? Answer to that question determines whether you need to pursue changing your company.

  26. Loopy*

    So I realize this will vary WILDLY but I’m stumped on what a reasonable raise is in terms of percentage. Let’s say I want to go for teapot designer I to teapot designer II because I’ve got a few years under my belt and have some good evidence.

    If it’s relevant I’m in a corporate environment or a fairly big company.

    5%? 10%?

    Without a huge jump in responsibility what won’t have a manager thinking I’m way out of touch with professional norms and what will?

      1. Loopy*

        We get something like 1-2% each year too but it was so small and actually negligible after an increase in healthcare costs that I was more frustrated with it than pleased.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Does your company have salaries listed on Glassdoor at all? If so, I would scan through those to see what the difference is between levels for any roles (Associate Analyst vs Assistant Analyst; Senior Manager vs Manager) and try to use that as a guide for your role and the next level up.

    3. Ribbon*

      When I moved from the I to II classification in my position, my raise was 4.6%. I work in a state government, so YMMV quite a bit.

      1. Loopy*

        Thanks for the input! I’m just hoping to get a number that won’t cause me to be laughed out of the office. I know some raises can be huge for significant jumps but this would be a pretty standard single step up if I could get it.

      1. Loopy*

        Thanks! This is helpful. I really would love to ask for 10% but I was afraid that might on the high side for this type of move.

    5. Zinnia*

      In a big company there’s usually a policy, so I’d start with a perusal of the HR handbook / website. It may be a non negotiable standard % for moving up one class (row) on the pay chart, or there may a % range that takes into account where you are in the pay range of the new position or how awesome your boss thinks you are. Regardless, it will give you a ball park idea of the range that’s reasonable to ask for.

      1. Loopy*

        I’d love that! But I’ve reviewed our company policies and there’s nothing like that. I think we can be a somewhat competitive field so they want to be able to have flexibility to use pay to retain people.

      2. Zinnia*

        To add my personal experience (myself and others I have actual pay knowledge about), I’ve seen these sort of progression promotions receive increases of 5-12%, with higher percentages at the lower end of the pay scale. Promotions from senior staff to manager ranged a bit higher, 10-20%, but those involved a much more significant change in job duties and level of responsibility.

    6. ThatGirl*

      My former large corporate employer averaged 2-4% a year. Granted, they weren’t flourishing and in fact I got laid off in March due to cost reductions, but yeah.

    7. AllMyExJobsAreInTexas*

      I just went from teapot designer II to teapot designer III and got a 10% raise with that promotion.

    8. SL #2*

      I got a little over 10% last year, but that was because I jumped a seniority level (assistant straight to associate instead of assistant to senior assistant), so if you average that out, it’s around 5.5% per seniority level.

      FWIW, I work at a very small non-profit with a very large budget. So we’re able to pay market rates and compete effectively.

    9. Ciscononymous*

      I am getting 5% for moving up from Senior Office Support to Admin Office Support, whenever Slow Approvers actually get that approved.

    10. Jen RO*

      In my department moving from Associate Teapot Maker to Teapot Maker is a 10-15% raise – but the benchmark for Associates is below market so I think the raises are a bit higher than usual because the boss is trying to compensate for that. 10% would be reasonable to ask for, imo.

    11. IowaGirl*

      I work at a large corporation. for promotions I’ve generally gotten around 8 percent plus I still get my COL raise. So IME asking for 10% or even a little more is reasonable.

      (This must be standardized where I work because it’s been consistent across jobs and departments)

      Good luck!

  27. Deep Breaths*

    I’m dealing with an exceptionally pushy person. They’re not a client or a vendor per se, but someone who is working with my organization on a project. Routinely, they have gone over my head when I give them an answer they don’t like. We’ve recently had a two-day exchange over email where they misrepresented the work they wanted to do and then balked when I provided them with a schedule. They pushed back for more time and revealed they had gone behind my back to other colleagues to try and get what they wanted without involving me. (which was stupid, because my department is ALWAYS involved in these projects and it would have gotten back to me eventually). Anyway, I have now reiterated twice that we’re not able to give them more time and I’m expected them to email my boss in the next few hours. My boss and grandboss are aware of the situation and I told them to expect an email. While both bosses are loathe to give them more time, I can’t help but feeling that when pushed by this person, I’m going to have to find a way to make it work. I know I can’t control what other people do. But was curious what others do when they have bully clients, vendors, colleagues that makes them feel more empowered.

    Thanks!!

    1. ByLetters*

      Communication is really, really key here. We have a client like this at my workplace; not only will they try to go above my head to try and get the answers they want to hear, but they will actively cold-call different departments trying to find someone new to the job so that they can bully the new person into giving them what they want.

      So far they haven’t gotten it, because firstly our office is one that really fosters/encourages asking questions when you aren’t sure of something. If any of these people had felt like they couldn’t ask for help and had just guessed, this client would have been able to screw us over. But every time she’s gotten a new person and tried this game, that person has felt comfortable enough to ask someone else what to do and the situation was nipped in the bud.

      Secondly, you need to make sure that you have really pigeonholed the management here in what they want you to do. Tell them flat out what you are afraid of — that they’re going to feel extraordinary pressure to give this person what they want, and that you want to be absolutely clear on what they want from YOU in this situation. If it’s 110% not achievable to give them more time, tell them that. If it’s theoretically possible but you would need X more resources, Y more employees, and Z more funding, tell them that so that they know the exact costs of saying yes or no.

      (I would be interested in hearing the opinions on others on this — but I wonder if you couldn’t request that if they decide to let the person get more time, you be the one to deliver the message. Maybe state that you don’t want to teach this person to go over your head for every decision.)

      Lastly, I would encourage you to reach out to people you think this person may speak to and tell them IN ADVANCE what to do. This has been hugely successful here at my workplace with our troublesome client; the here watchword is “Please allow me to contact [specific leader] regarding your request!” Literally everyone from the top brass to the janitorial staff has been made aware of this client and what to do if something is requested of them.

      1. Deep Breaths*

        Thanks! I’ve told several of my colleagues that are tangentially involved in the project to forward any future emails to me (which they’re happy to do because they don’t want to manage this project!) I also have it in writing from my boss that she supports me not giving them any additional time for the project (I was being kind in offering them a little extra, which is what they’re pushing back on). Yet, I’ve been burned by this before. I have been used to play bad cop before so that higher ups could be good cop.

    2. Accounting Is Fun*

      First of all, remember that all of this extra running around behind your back just to get the answer they want does not reflect poorly on you, it reflects poorly on them. It is almost like a child who doesn’t get the answer they want from one parent and therefore asks the other parent. Just like parents, it is important that your boss and grand boss have your back on this one. If they ask the person “what did Deep Breaths say? Well, Deep Breaths is the one involved in this project the most deeply, so holding to Deep Breaths’ timeline is the way we need to proceed” – then you have a good boss and grand boss. By everyone presenting a united front to someone who is seeking the answer they want to hear and not the correct one, your organization will train this person to take no for an answer, just like a child will learn they can’t get their way just by asking one parent when the other says no.

    3. Jbelly*

      They do this because it has worked in the past and they will continue to do so as a result. I don’t know if they are bullying so much as they are aggressive (please let me know if I’m wrong) and see you as an easily circumvented obstacle. My suggestion? Don’t internalize it or become emotional about it. They’re just a data point. You – or your office – may not have the authority to make this person follow the rules. At least for now.

      1. Deep Breaths*

        Hi Jbelly – The last time they did this, my grandboss did have my back and said that I was working hard to help them and reiterated the issues I laid out for them previously, though in the end I was asked to do my best to accommodate some of their requests “within reason.” It’s these caveats that kill me. Because what’s “within reason” is actually me doing a lot of behind the scenes finagling to make something work that no one will care about unless it doesn’t work.

        As for this particular person. They’re a snake. Nice to your face while throwing you under the bus behind your back. I don’t trust them as far as I can throw them. So although I’m documenting everything and updating everyone, I can’t help but feel anxious with every action despite putting up a strong front.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          I’d say they’re giving you the leeway to decide that’s “within reason” there, and the stuff that requires behind the scenes finagling and rearranging is not within reason after a certain point. This person has blown way past that point, so at this point when you’re told to do what you can… What you can is give a very polite “sorry” and change nothing, because it’s not possible.

          You know your bosses best, but I think since they’re overall backing you up here, they are giving you the grounds to go back to the person who is trying to circumvent you and shut it down. By having you also do this (instead of just them saying “no, we agree with DB”) it sends the message that they don’t find this bypassing to be acceptable and that they expect them to accept decisions that come through you.

        2. Jbelly*

          Are you significantly more junior than them? Is your office supposed to facilitate processes or offer services that have been done in other ways in the past? I’m trying to figure out if there is a push for changing the orgs culture. But I’m offering the same advice I would give to myself: don’t internalize it. It’s business. Put in the effort that will make you and your bosses come out looking good. This will (generally) put you in a better position in the future because hopefully you will build capital. But whatever you do, don’t internalize it. It’s not worth it.

          1. Deep Breaths*

            Thank you both for the insight! I think they view me as a junior representative. I’m a high-level associate, but not a manager, whereas this person is sort of an executive of a very small organization. (My company has over 2K employees) My office facilitates requests from people outside the organization, so I typically deal with people who are of varying levels of authority. But, I don’t think there needs to be a push for changing the structure. I think this person is an unfortunate anomaly and someone who feels entitled to get what they want because of their supposed status, rather than what they actually contribute to my organization.

            To be honest, when I usually deal with people like this, I tend to try to make as many accommodations as possible to avoid conflict and escalation. But, in the past this person has not appreciated any of these efforts and went over my head (and misrepresented the situation as well), so I’m no longer inclined to be accommodating. My last email to them this morning was to say I wasn’t able to accommodate their request, but would be happy to look in to alternatives that might work for them. Unsurprisingly, I haven’t heard back and feel relatively confident that they’re either drafting (or have drafted) an email to my bosses to get a different response. I suppose now we just wait and see!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      In an ideal world, it is probably time for your boss to talk to Pushy Person’s boss. A restructuring could occur where the two bosses talk things over and take you both out of the loop.

      OTH, your boss could ask for a different contact person at this company. You would work with the new contact person instead of Pushy.

      Often times at work I need to agree to extensions. So what I do with that is I say okay this time but next time I have to ask permission for my boss (or other involved, labor intensive hold up in granting approval). Sometimes I give extensions and I say “You do understand that the next time you ask for an extension on this, I will have to say no for X reason, right?”
      Some people connect with the statement, “I can extend it this one time. However I cannot offer unlimited extensions. We need a plan to nail down this new date as the final deadline.”
      Your solution might be, “I can grant an extension if you can show me in writing your plan to meet the new date, so there will be no more requests for even further extensions.” If people have to write things out sometimes they figure it is easier just to be on time.

      1. Deep Breaths*

        Unfortunately, we don’t have that opportunity. This person runs a very small organization, so there’s no one to speak to about her behavior. I’ve worked with 2 others in their organization and I’m almost certain that their interactions with me are dictated by what they’re told by this person.

        Part of the issue is that they’re not organized and tend to spring last minute changes and updates that change the parameters of the work. My office does have protocols in place to limit such things, but the issue is that they’re not forthcoming about all their needs until I give them information that doesn’t suit their needs. By that time, we’re usually in the late stages of the planning process and changing things becomes much more difficult. At which point, I explain why the changes aren’t possible and then they escalate the situation to my bosses (usually leaving out the part that they informed me of new needs late in the game).

    5. ABL*

      I don’t know if this is feasible here, but is there any way to make those requests have consequences for their organization as well as for you? Since they’re not a client I guess it isn’t a scope change that would cost them money, which is normally what I would look to do when someone asks for a substantial change to a project that takes way more time and effort. But maybe there’s a way to say that yes we can absolutely speed up the spout production but that will mean that pushy person’s organization will need to subcontract the graphics since you’ll no longer have time to do them in house… or something?

  28. Chase*

    So, I’m expecting to get an offer next week, (yay!) but since I don’t have an offer yet I’m still job searching. I noticed yesterday that they posted the same position, but 4 days a week instead of full-time. I’d rather work 4 days a week, and I have health issues that mean it’s probably a better idea. If they offer me the job, can I ask about working 4 days a week? How do I phrase if without making them question my work ethic or commitment to the job? I’d prefer not to bring up the health issues.

    Thanks so much for any advice!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “I noticed you recently posted the job with a four-day-a-week schedule. I’m not sure if it’s this same exact slot or not, but I’d potentially be interested in that schedule if it is.”

  29. Ghost Town*

    I’ve recently stared a new position, and moved from the college at a major university to the business school. It’s a great move, if currently overwhelming, but I need help with my wardrobe. This move takes my wardrobe from casual-business-casual to business-business-casual. I have gone through more pantyhose in the past couple of weeks than I did in the previous 8 years.

    I need recommendations for pantyhose that won’t run, has control top, pale colors, and won’t break the bank. Any tips?
    Thank you!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I like SPANX brand Luxe Leg High-Waisted Sheers. I have yet to find a pantyhose brand that won’t ever run, but I keep a small bottle of clear nail polish in my desk for pantyhose emergencies (you paint it around the hole and then it won’t run any further.) They are a bit on the pricey side though. I think with hosiery you often get what you pay for.

      I also, confession time, wear a lot of pants in the summer so that I don’t have to worry about hose and just buy those super cheap pantyhose socks from Target for my feet. They die fast, but they are so cheap I don’t care.

      1. Ghost Town*

        I do have clear nail polish at my desk and use it for quick fixes or when the run will be covered by shoes, but was getting runs all the way up my foot or a few inched up the back of my leg.

        (I’m needing the control top even w/pants right now. Trying to extend the pieces I have until we’ve banked a bit of the salary increase, especially since I’ve dropped a couple hundred on new shoes already.)
        Thanks!

        1. StrikingFalcon*

          There are control top pieces that aren’t pantyhose. I forget what they’re called, but you’ll find them in the lingerie section of department stores. Much more permanent than pantyhose.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Spanx is a really good brand, and I agree that you get what you pay for with hosiery. Alas!

        I think I’d just wear pants in the summer as well, because while a nice soft pair of opaque tights can be very comfortable and affordable, pantyhose are the absolute devil. Nice lightweight linen suit pants? WAY better than pantyhose.

    2. tink*

      -L’eggs women’s energy is pretty great on a budget. Control top, reinforced toe, $14 for a pack of 3.
      -Hue So Silky has a control top and invisible reinforced toe, $10/pair.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, somehow cheap drugstore nylons often last longer for me than “better” more expensive ones.

      3. DCGirl*

        I second the recommendation for L’Eggs Sheer Energy. You can buy them in quantity for less than the drugstore at a website called One Hanes Place. They also sell Hanes hosiery as well.

    3. Seren*

      I like my Uniqlo stuff a lot, and they have free shipping running this weekend. The mock neck knits shirts for $5.90 right now can be balled up and arent wrinkly on wearing them. I also like their supine cotton shirts. Their tights usually hang on for 6months to a year. Don’t know much about their bottoms though.

      1. Seren*

        Oops, totally misread the purpose of this thread, please ignore. I thought you were looking for cheap business casual clothes in general as well as nylons.

        1. Ghost Town*

          Not going to turn down advise on this matter, either. Currently rotating between about 6 outfits that I can mix and match to some extent. I really need to go through my closet, honestly, about what I’ll actually wear now.

    4. mreasy*

      Hue is my favorite brand for sheer & opaque tights. They last forever & they do offer control top options (though a light-control spanx panty may be a better bet, as someone above has mentioned).

    5. Anono-me*

      Back when dinasours roamed the earth and every department store had a huge hosiery department, my first professional (but low paying) job required slacks or hose.

      Following a friend’s advice, I bought a bottle of hosiery wash that really seemed to help my hose last longer. (I think the brand was hosiery mate but I don’t recall. The bottle was a unusual beige gray, and was at almost every hosiery register.) I would wash my hose right away after every wear, as skin oil can be hard on hose. Also, I would air dry them flat on a towel, as dangle drying can stretch out and weaken fibers.

      Congratulations on the new position.

    6. Observer*

      Target’s Merona are not bad, and the No Nonsense one’s aren’t too bad either. Not really, really cheap, but not terribly expensive (especially if you can get them on special), and they hold up pretty well.

      1. Ghost Town*

        That sounds like a fable: the tale of the everlasting tights. I’ll have to look for those!

    8. Nye*

      I much prefer old-fashioned stockings to pantyhose. (The kind you hold up with a garter belt.) They’re more of an investment, but I find they last far longer than pantyhose, plus they’re much more comfortable and you don’t have to worry about them slipping down. They would also be compatible with shapewear (in lieu of the control-top option).

      You have my sympathies in having to wear hose regularly, though! I cherish my profession in part because of its nearly non-existent dress code.

  30. Lore*

    Does anyone have recommendations for actually getting work through NYC temp agencies right now? I have two friends trying to sign up with temp agencies who are finding that it’s just as much of a send-application-online-into-a-black-hole as applying for jobs. They’ve submitted materials to four or five supposedly reputable (and different) agencies, some of them with specialties in their fields, and they all auto-respond “You will hear from us within 24 hours if we have a suitable position” and then…nothing. Are you expected to resubmit to the agencies every week now? What’s the secret?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This was a couple of years ago, but I had better luck when I was referred to a staffing agency through a friend who had used that agency previously.

    2. Badmin*

      I wonder if the time of year has anything to do with it, lots of grads flooding the job market now. Maybe in a few months it will be a less busy time.

    3. T3k*

      I don’t know about NYC, but I know around here, I was told you have to call the agencies (even after submitting stuff online) and once I did, I was then told by them that I have to call them at the beginning of the week to be put on the availability list each week.

      1. Lore*

        Yeah, that’s what I remember from temping a while back, but these all specifically say “do not call us, we’ll call you.”

    4. PM-NYC*

      I got referred by a friend initially and had a good experience with Atrium Staffing here.

  31. Ribbon*

    Yesterday I was invited to interview for a job that is a good match for my skills in some areas and a definite stretch in others. I know the current incumbent, who is retiring, because we have worked together tangentially in the past. For context, I have a state job and this position is a county position in the same subject area. I can’t decide if it’s appropriate to reach out to her during the process either before or after the interview to ask about the office and the team, and maybe some other specific information (how is work divided, what kind of training is there, etc). I have spoken to another person in a different county with the same position and she gave me good information in a broad way, but I can’t decide if it’s overstepping or looks like I’m trying to get some kind of an advantage?

    1. Eppie*

      I would probably ask her questions after your interview if you have anything you didn’t get a good feel for.

  32. Project Manager*

    So, last week, our group (about 150 people) had an all hands meeting, and the group’s lead used the time to give a performance of his hobby (it’s a performing art – the kind of thing you might see at a children’s birthday party or a renaissance fair. He does it professionally). We weren’t told in advance that this would occur. Am I just a boring killjoy, or is it inappropriate for a manager to use a de facto mandatory meeting to make his reports’ reports sit through his act?

    (I’m a little biased here because this is a new manager, and he hasn’t made a good first impression on me. He is VERY different from our old manager, which is fine, but he’s been highlighting the differences between himself and our previous manager so assiduously that I have come to believe he is doing it deliberately – and he’s doing it in such a way as to reflect poorly on said previous manager. Even if I didn’t like the previous manager, I would still think that was inappropriate behavior. And as it happens, I DID like the previous manager, and all the things he’s using to cast shade on the previous manager are things I really liked about him. So it’s making me like the new manager less.)

    1. katamia*

      Sooooooooooooooooooooo inappropriate. Meetings can be valuable, but there’s no way that his act made your jobs easier or gave you useful information on how to better do your jobs. I hate that sort of thing. (Heck, I hated watching movies in class in school because if I had to put on pants and wake up early to be there, then you needed to be teaching me and making getting up too early worthwhile.)

      1. Project Manager*

        Does it help if you know that the meeting was followed by an ice cream social and the performance was the last portion of the meeting before we were unleashed upon the unsuspecting ice cream?

        (Didn’t help ME because I wanted some ice cream. Had the performance followed or been at the same time as the ice cream social, I would have minded a lot less. As it was, I stood there thinking, “I want some ice cream. How much longer is this going to take?”)

        1. neverjaunty*

          Still entirely unprofessional. This was a waste of your time and attention so he could show off his hobby.

    2. k*

      1. Totally weird and inappropriate.

      2. I’m really enjoying trying to imagine what his act was. Juggling? A puppet show? Clown act? Tight rope walking? I’m imagining that whatever it was, he tried to make it into some metaphor for something work related. Juggling for multi tasking, etc. I’m sure it was painful to sit through, but it’s really fun when it’s imaginary :)

      1. Project Manager*

        It was one of those things, but not only did he NOT try to make it a work-related metaphor, he also said that he would like other “talented” people in our group to do similar performances at our all hands from now on. So I guess now we’re having a talent show every other month.

        By the way, we are engineers. Just in case you were thinking maybe our industry is somehow performing acts-related.

        (also, I should add, I have plenty of wacky hobbies myself, and I think the fact that he can pursue his hobby professionally is great. I just don’t think it belongs in the workplace. I mean, I love reciting poetry, and my kids like it too, but never in a million years would I make my reports listen to me perform “The Raven”.)

        1. motherofdragons*

          I’d be super annoyed to be on the receiving end of an act like that at a work meeting, and I’m appalled that it’s apparently going to become a regular thing! Ugh ugh ugh. No.

        4. Parenthetically*

          WHAT. A talent show in a professional work environment? Ye gods, no. I’m one of those people who feels an embarrassing social situation far too acutely and this is making me squirm. I think I’d find a way to be sick one month, on vacation the next, sick again the third one…

        5. So Very Anonymous*

          We have a second-in-command-level manager who has been organizing a group of like-minded hobbyists who will be performing at our mandatory full-day inservice day. They practice in a conference room during work hours, and there are several other managers participating. Since the person organizing the group already has a reputation for favoritism, the whole thing feels a little… weird?

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            I’m imagining hushed commentary: “The lower border appears to be — yes, it’s finished now, and it looks like she’s switching to — is that garter stitch or stockinette?” “I think it’s stockinette, Bob, but we’ll see as soon as she gets to the end of this row.” “The suspense is incredible!”

    3. tink*

      Unless you work planning children’s birthday parties or ren faires, seems pretty off the mark to me? Like, is he hoping parents in the room will hire him on the side to be the performance art at Little Darling’s birthday celebrations?

    4. Zinnia*

      I vote it’s inappropriate. One quick trick to get folk’s attention, that could work, sort of like telling a joke or putting a cartoon in a PowerPoint. An extended performance? Not so much.

      1. Lalaith*

        I agree. At my college, there was a professor who was very good at magic, and he would do a trick at the start of every class. In his case, it was a ploy to get students to show up to class on time, and he was apparently good enough that it worked (and I’m a little sad I never took his class). But anything beyond that is too much.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If it’s something like juggling, I don’t think it’s a big deal as a way to lighten the mood — as long as it only took a few minutes. If he were a good manager, I don’t think it would bug you — it’s that it’s happening in the context of already being annoyed by him (in which case it would annoy me too).

      On the other hand, if it took more than a couple of minutes, then no.

    6. Squeegee Beckenheim*

      That’s so weird! It would be one thing if people were begging for him to pull a rabbit out of his hat or whatever and he hung around after the meeting to demonstrate it to the people who wanted to see while everyone else got to leave, but making people stay to watch you paint faces or whatever is bizarre.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like he wants to be known as “the fun boss”.

      Hopefully, most people will tell him that they do not have special talents and this will bring the talent show to a screeching halt.

      I wonder if he was just promoting his business so you all would hire him for your kid’s or grandkid’s parties.

    8. JulieBulie*

      I would love to see his act… at a renaissance faire.
      NOT at work.
      And I’d be ultra-pissed if this became a regularly scheduled ordeal, because odds are, some of my coworkers might have more vanity than talent. I’ll have to listen to an off-key rendition of “Firework” that I’ll never be able to get out of my mind.

  33. New grad*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m about to graduate, so I am in the midst of interviewing. I first started applying back in December, started getting invitations to take numerical reasoning and business attitudes tests in January, started being asked to record video interviews in February, and had my first in-person interview in March. Since then I’ve gone on 11 in-person interviews, with numerous tests, phone interviews, video questions, etc. In the beginning, I was very enthusiastic. For example, I didn’t even balk when I showed up to a 7 AM interview and was told they had scheduled events for me until 10 PM. But now I’m starting to feel a bit overwhelmed with it all, and like anything the interviewer asks me to do is just too much. I’m currently working and finishing up school (I’ll graduate in July, the common time to graduate in this country), but it feels like interviewing has taken over my life. I thought I’d have a job offer by now and I could do some traveling before starting to work, but I can’t leave the country when I might be asked to interview that week. Any tips for keeping my enthusiasm during a long job search?

    1. Marillenbaum*

      Is all this a single interviewer? Because a process this long and involved is, frankly, crazypants.

      1. New grad*

        Should have made the more clear, no these are separate interviewing processes! I’m just starting to feel fatigued from the job search as a whole.

      1. New grad*

        International business. I feel like my friends at school all were hired from their first interviews, so it is starting to feel embarrassing when I have no news after months of searching. For example I had a 3rd in-person interview today, and when I got home, HR had sent me links to IQ and personality testing they wanted me to do. I was annoyed, I had been told in the 2nd interview that the 3rd interview was the final step, plus what more will they learn from online tests that they haven’t seen from 3 interviews?

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Yeah. I don’t know how International Business works, but this feels really excessive to me.

          1. New grad*

            So do most new grads get an offer after applying to only a few jobs?
            Maybe it is just because most of the jobs I apply to do have involved processes, so if I was only interviewing at one place, it wouldn’t be as overwhelming.

            1. LizB*

              I think it’s pretty normal for new grads to have to apply to a number of jobs, but the processes at these places sound pretty over-the-top. It’s a lot less exhausting when the process is phone interview > in-person > 2nd in-person > offer, like it is in my field.

            2. AnotherLibrarian*

              Well, I don’t know about International Business, but I applied for over 30 Library jobs before I landed one out of Library School. I think you have to apply for a lot of jobs in general before you get a job. That’s sort of how it goes.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          My answer is a shot in the dark. I’d say look at the companies you are choosing to apply at and change something that you are doing. My wild guess is that these weird companies all have some things in common that you are not noticing initially. Unfortunately, you finally become aware after they make you jump through hoops.

          Maybe one thing you can do is talk to other people before you apply. “Hey, what do you hear about Teapots Forever? Are they a decent company?” When a person answers yes, ask them why they think that. Listen closely to their explanation.

  34. mamabear*

    So, is it normal to feel like you’re drowning when you’re a new manager? Part of the issue is that we’re woefully understaffed and will be for some time because of university budget cuts. That means I’m still doing my old job, on top of trying to learn a new one. Oh, and my direct report is brand-new to the position after changing careers, so I’m trying to train someone who is very green. She’s doing well for the stage she’s at, but there are so many things that I just can’t delegate to her yet.

    I have this fear that I’m going to be one of those people who became a manager because she was good at other things, but actually really sucks at management. My own boss is not very helpful sounding board and is sort of well-known around our office for being good at many things, but being a weak manager. I’m two months into this gig and kind of regretting taking the job. I can’t tell if I’m in over my head, or if I have a massive case of impostor syndrome.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Yes, totally normal.

      It was a good year until I actually felt like I had a clue what I was doing. You’ll get through this. Just remember to look out for your people :)

      1. mamabear*

        Thanks, Katie. I know I have to keep reminding myself that there is a learning curve. Just because I was groomed for the position doesn’t mean I won’t have growing pains.

    3. Emmie*

      I agree with Katie The Fed. It took me a good year. I’d also encourage you to find some time to have your employees memorialize key parts of their jobs (i.e. directions for x report, a list of all their regular to-dos centralized in one document so you can monitor their work / know about deliverables, the process for doing y task.) It will help you when people inevitably transfer, or get sick. But it will also help you monitor their work.

      It was hard for me to accept that I cannot do each of my employee’s jobs. I loved being the subject matter expert, but that’s not always realistic when you’re managing the team. Depending on your manager level, you’ll spend some time over the next year figuring out when you need to know tasks, be strategic, and get familiar enough to speak intelligently about some of the projects. Good luck!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      No, you are drowning, they threw you in the pool and told you to figure out how to swim.

      My wise friend said when dealing with chaos, nail one thing down. Then look around and see where other things are in relationship to that one thing you have a handle on. Move to next thing, nail it down. And repeat the process.

      When lost in the wilderness like this, I prefer to target recurring tasks and recurring problems. I worry less about the one of a kind things. Here the goal is to get an overview of the job and get the basic things under control.
      Putting these two ideas together (chaos plus lost in the wilderness) into one example lets say I have a report due each Friday. I would make it a goal each Friday to do that report and get a good handle on that report. Once I could feel the report making more sense to me, I would look around for my next thing to tackle.

      One lifesaver for me has been writing a list of what I will do tomorrow, at night just before I go home. It makes the next day a tiny bit easier and it helps me sleep a little bit better.

  35. Casper Lives*

    I’d like some perspective on whether this is a standard lay off package. I got laid off this week. I’ve never been laid off or fired before. I’m a lawyer and worked at this small firm for 2.5 years. They gave me 2 weeks of severance, promised good references, and will not fight unemployment (actually, they gave me the filled out and signed UE sheet saying I was laid off). I’m in shock, but I took it professionally, I think.

    My friends/family think they gave me a raw deal. They supposedly laid me off because I didn’t have a skill they wanted, but they knew I didn’t have that skill when they hired me, and they didn’t pay for me to obtain it through classes or whatever. I believe the motive was financial because some of the paralegals texted me later this week to say a paralegal had been hired to essentially do my job with attorney supervision. I’m a little angry, but I think it’s more beneficial for me to think “good luck with that, and maybe getting out of this toxic place will be best if I don’t run out of savings finding a job.”

    1. tiny temping teapot*

      Sounds like you’re primed to look for a job that suits you better. The severance isn’t fantastic, but they gave you something, you’re ready to get on unemployment and start looking!

      I definitely think “good luck with that, new things here I come!” is the way to think about it.

    2. Zinnia*

      It’s not uncommon to get one week per year employed, which is great if you’ve been there a long time, but crappy if you haven’t.

    3. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Large firms will usually (not always!! But often anyway) do a much larger severance package – I remember my old firm gave people 3 months – but small firms vary quite widely; a friend was laid off from her small firm with nothing. Small firms don’t always have the financial ability to offer meaningful severance. Regardless, you are right that looking forward is the best thing you can do. Focusing on being angry at your firm doesn’t help you at all and I can’t say, from this outside perspective, that you got a raw deal. It sucks, but it is what it is. Put your energies into finding a new job that’s a better fit for you. Good luck!

    4. Deep Breaths*

      In my field severence packages have always been 1 week’s pay for every year one has been with the company, unless a senior manager (then two week’s pay). So this sounds a bit right, though norms may be different for law firms. (I work in relatively low-paying industry). It sounds like they didn’t want to go through the work it would take to bring you up to speed and for them it was easier to establish someone else in a similar capacity. It absolutely stinks that they weren’t able to work with you on this skill or express that they realized that the skill was needed. But, I don’t think you got a raw deal. In fact, you might have escaped relatively unscathed and they gave you the opportunity to move on without serious issue.

    5. neverjaunty*

      Definitely take the unemployment and wish them good luck with their being penny wise and pound foolish. Being laid off because a small firm reduced staffing shouldn’t hurt you in future jobs.

    6. Karo*

      As others have said, the severance seems reasonable. While I can’t speak specifically to your field, the reasoning behind the lay off seems reasonable as well. Getting training paid for you by the company (assuming it’s not on a platform or subject that only the company uses) is a perk, not a given. Also, while they knew you didn’t have the skill when they hired you, that was 2.5 years ago. A lot can change in that amount of time, including how desperately they need you to have the skill.

      I totally get being upset by it, but I think your friends & family are laying it on a bit thick by saying it’s a raw deal.

      And honestly, even if they weren’t, even if it was a really raw deal – if you can get yourself into the headspace of “whatever, this could be great for me” that’s always a better place to be.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agree with this.

        And they may not have realized they’d really need that skill when they hired you, or they may have expected you to pick it up on your own through doing the work, or they may have concluded that if you didn’t have that, it made more sense to just have a paralegal in the role instead.

        1. Casper Lives*

          This blog has really helped me learn professional norms. Thank you Allison! The office environment had a lot of issues. I used this blog to communicate and to work professionally with the Office Manager. I think working with her professionally was key to getting such a clean break because I suspect she went to bat for me. The partners are very stingy. I doubt I would have gotten any severance without her help. I took the lay off gracefully, and cried in the parking lot after farewells and well wishes. After the lay off, the OM privately reiterated she would give me a great reference, and gave me the direct phone number for person she’s working with at a staffing agency they’re using for a temp.

          It’s not my problem anymore. I will ask others in the office not to text me about goings-on because I can only see that leading to resentment on my part (something I picked up on this blog). I do think they’re being penny wise and pound foolish, in that I believe they will realize I need to be replaced with two paralegals or another associate attorney anyway.

    7. ThatGirl*

      It really varies. I got laid off in March and the standard package there was 2 weeks severance for every year of service plus outplacement firm services (which help with your resume and networking and stuff). Some places don’t do much of anything, though. The severance is a little stingy, but it’s something.

    8. Episkey*

      I’ve been laid off once and severance was a week per year of employment as well. They laid me off about 3 weeks shy of my 4th anniversary so they could only give me 3 weeks of severance. So I feel you.

  36. Larina*

    My boss wants to hire my coworker’s son to work underneath the two of us and the other two leads in our department. I’ve been very vocal in my opposition to a literal nepotism hire and conflict of interest waiting to happen, but my boss doesn’t think it’s a big deal as long as coworker’s son reports to one of the other lead’s that’s not his mom. Boss also goes to church with my coworker and her son, which is were some of his bias is coming from as well. If they end up hiring him, would it be out of place to go above my boss’s head and let someone higher up know how horribly uncomfortable this situation makes me? I work at a small-ish company where we have around 60 people in office and all of our HR is outsourced. I would probably have to approach either our VP or CEO because my boss is on the executive team.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Why can’t you go to HR? If they’re outsourced, they would presumably be a neutral party. Tell them ASAP.

      1. Pwyll*

        Depends on the role of the HR contractor. In some companies outsourced HR is effectively the “Benefits and Payroll Paperwork Department”. I’ve found this true especially when outsourced HR is an ancillary service provided by the Payroll company. They might provide some high level guidance as to workplace advice, but they’re not necessarily in a position to manage issues like this.

    3. Anono-me*

      Before you escalate, please consider the culture at your office. If there other nepotism hires, you may be considered out of step for raising concerns, no matter how valid.

      1. Frustrated Optimist*

        My office has similar nepotism hires, or, at least many close personal friends who are brought on. Years ago, a worker was fired for confronting management about it, although to be fair, this worker laid on the criticism thick, if not recklessly.

        If it bothers you, and I can see why it does, you may need to consider a different environment. Have I mentioned I have been job-searching myself for two years…?

  37. HisGirlFriday*

    What not to do, job-seeker edition:

    Backstory: We are hiring for a PT position, answering phones, handling event registration, making copies, etc. General office work. We had considered hiring a temp, but ultimately decided against it for reasons I disagree with, but whatever.

    Candidates have been coming in to interview with GrandBoss, and other director-level staff (me and one other) because we’ll be the ones assigning work.

    Today’s candidate informed us, upon seeing the lay-out of our office, ‘That cubicle won’t work for me. I need an office or complete open space, but cube walls make me claustrophobic.’

    She then saw our office manager eating an English muffin with peanut butter and informed us, ‘This office has to become peanut-free immediately. I’m sensitive and cannot be around peanuts*.’

    She also said, before we started the substance of the interview, ‘The advertisement said it was 25 hours/week, with variable start times between 8 and 10 a.m.. I cannot start earlier than 9.30 a.m., ever.’

    Shortest.interview.ever.

    * I realize that peanut allergies are legitimate and need to be accommodated. But her tone was so imperious that it was off-putting. Also, had she been hired, we would have accommodated it. If she had refused to shake our OM’s hand because our OM had been eating peanut butter and she was afraid of a reaction, I would have understood that. But to say we need to make the office peanut-free RIGHT THIS SECOND was a little much.

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      Well, THAT makes it easier to rule him out as a candidate – he’s done the job for you!

    3. Seal*

      Gotta love a clueless candidate! I’ll bet she was surprised she when she didn’t get the job, too.

  38. Jessen*

    So…who here has heard of dress yoga pants? And does anyone work at an office where these would be allowed?

    1. Marillenbaum*

      I have a friend who wears them to work; she’s in higher ed but also has a fair amount of flexibility in her work.

    2. Rincat*

      Like the Beta Brand yoga dress pants? I would LOVE some of those but they are pricey and I’ve found less expensive alternatives. My office would allow this – I wear knit pants all the time that are similar, but I usually wear longer tops with tight fitting pants just for my own comfort. I’ve been watching what the other women wear and I don’t think tight pants are a problem here though.

        1. Rincat*

          Uniqlo has many stretchy work pant options, as well as the leggings pants. Simply Vera by Vera Wang at Kohl’s has a lot of great ponte and stretchy work pants, and Kohl’s stuff is always on sale.

    3. Fictional Butt*

      Heard of them: yes.
      Does anyone work at an office where they would be appropriate: NOOOO NOT AT ANY OFFICE NOOOOOO

        1. Fictional Butt*

          Ok, I was being a little silly :) But, if you’re going to wear yoga pants, just wear yoga pants! Those “dress yoga pants” aren’t fooling anyone…

      2. motherofdragons*

        Some offices, yes! I wear them all the time to my office and nobody has ever commented or complained (which they have done for other apparent dress code offenders). When I have pointed it out, people are surprised to learn that they aren’t regular trousers. They look just like form-fitting dress pants, belt loops and all.

    4. Temperance*

      There are a few women in my office who wear them … and uh, you can really tell. They look nothing like actual dress pants.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        2nd this – we have 2 women who wear them. And while we are on the business end of business casual (not suits, but not khakis) these look like well fitting yoga pants.

    5. tiny temping teapot*

      I work at bank type place but those beta brand dress yoga pants don’t look any different from the slacks I see women wearing here. (What even makes them yoga pants?) I wouldn’t wear them with a workout top or a t-shirt, but with a nice blouse and blazer or cardigan, conservative jewelry and heels, pretty sure you’re set. (Or you would be here.)

    6. Friday*

      Wearing them right now, yo. They look like regular pants because this is a straight leg style not a leggings style (they make both). Also really needing the elastic waistband as I’m in my first trimester.

      1. Jessen*

        Yeah I think it’s mostly how tight they are that makes me uncomfortable. I just feel like having that much of my rear end outlined in front of my coworkers isn’t really ok for work. I’ve seen too many cases of yoga pants where you can tell what the lady is or isn’t wearing underneath.

        1. motherofdragons*

          They are definitely tighter than the average slacks. I prefer form-fitting clothes, always have, but am always very conscientious about panty lines and such. These are so thick, regardless of what I wear underneath, you cannot tell. I would not wear them otherwise.

        2. Friday*

          The trick to these is, don’t buy them too tight. They should fit like slacks not tights.

      2. motherofdragons*

        Same! I’m carrying twins, so I started popping early. I have both the straight leg and the wide leg versions. They’re so perfect for pregnancy.

    7. LizB*

      They’d be fine with my workplace, but only because my organization has exercise as part of our mission, so yoga pants + uniform top are an acceptable outfit.

    8. Elly*

      I think the term is being used as a marketing ploy. Woman’s dress pants made out of certain knit fabrics isn’t anything new.

      1. motherofdragons*

        Maybe it’s the amount of stretch? And the lack of an actual button or zipper. They really are meant to be able to transition to exercise, I have friends who wear them to work meetings and then to pilates.

      2. Howdy Do*

        Indeed, there’s lots of pull-on stretchy women’s work pants out there which are perfectly fine for work (because I’m wearing some right now) as long as they are paired with the right shoes and top and as long as they are not so tight or so thin that they show too much detail of the lower body or undergarments, they’re fine (not to mention I’ve definitely seen some very thin, very tight dress pants being worn that aren’t any more professional.)

      1. Rincat*

        I did that when I was pregnant and was totally unapologetic. They were the only pants that fit and I was in no mood to spend money on maternity pants!

        But then I didn’t really have meetings with high-profile people, or was customer-facing, or anything like that, so I could get away with it.

        1. E*

          Same, I wore a pair of black ones for the majority of the last couple of months of my pregnancy. They looked like nice dress pants but were very comfy. And black pants can be washed and reworn the next day, since so much of my pants wardrobe didn’t fit at that point and I had no budget for more pregnancy clothes that wouldn’t fit after a few months.

    10. Cedrus Libani*

      I tried the Beta Brand version, and while they look like slacks, the fit was super weird. I bought the size that matched my waist, and while the waist was right, the lower leg portion was so tight that I could barely get it over my feet. I sent it back twice for a larger size, and by the time I could (painfully!) squeeze the pants over my calves, the waistband was larger than my hips and would never have stayed up without a belt. Which defeats the purpose of stretch pants. Never had that problem before; my proportions are very average.

      Personally, I just buy normal slacks with a good dose of spandex, and it’s fine. But I like having pockets.

      I’ve seen people wear regular black yoga pants in an office setting. As long as they fit like pants, not like leggings, I don’t mind it. (I don’t need to see every last one of your camel’s toes, so…buy a size up, please.) But yoga pants still aren’t going to fly with a suit.

      1. Rincat*

        This is good to know, thank you! I have pretty wide hips in proportion to my waist and thighs so it sounds like Beta Brand wouldn’t fit me at all.

      2. Windchime*

        I couldn’t get a good fit on the Beta Brand, either. But NYDJ makes a nice pair of ponte slacks that are awesome for work and I wear them every day.

    11. The OG Anonsie*

      They’d be fine most places I’ve worked, in that I’ve worked almost entirely in casual offices. I’ve seen waaaay worse stuff fly than trouser looking yoga pants.

    12. zora*

      I have worn the Lands End 5-pocket ponte pants in the past. They are as comfy as yoga pants but have a regular waistband/fly. And a little less than the Beta brand I think.

      I got the skinny pants style because I wear a lot of boots. But they also make a bootcut version that basically looks like trousers. It also depends on what size you get, you can go down a size and have them be very obviously tight, or up a size and they are form fitting but not obviously tight.

      Then again, I work in California where pretty much everyone has been wearing skinny jeans for years now, so close-fitting pants are pretty accepted across the board here.

      1. Pearly Girl*

        Lands’ End has a 25% off weekend thing going right now. Might try ordering some.

        1. zora*

          hmmm, I outgrew the ones I used to love, maybe I should order my new size! thanks for the headsup!

    13. Mander*

      In the plus size world, anyway, the vast majority of formal trousers are very much like yoga pants. I have a couple of pairs that I got on one of those jumbled up clearance racks that I have never been able to decide if they are meant to be exercise or business gear. As long as they are in good condition and don’t have any obvious “sporty” features (e.g. exposed seams, logos, random high-vis trim) I can’t see what the problem would be if worn with appropriate shoes & shirt.

    14. Moosey*

      I have a few pairs and the fabric choice really determines how work appropriate they are. The dark grey ones are really just yoga pants and I don’t wear them to work. I have the blue linen (my favorite!) and black (fine for work) and a friend says the pebble is good too. I bought them when I returned to work 12 weeks post partum and they’ve been a lifesaver.

  39. SophieChotek*

    Just learned a co-worker (Sansa) that I work closely with is re-signing. Sansa and I work well together, think very similarly along many lines, and she is very helpful to my department. (And knows a lot about analytics, coding, stuff like that, so I have no idea who I can turn to for help on that area.) Apparently HQ was putting great pressure on Sansa to re-located (to India) and I guess it wasn’t really a “choice” so she decided to resign instead. (What gets me there is another co-worker, her boss, Cersei, really wanted to go to India, but HQ wouldn’t let her.) So with Sansa gone…now Cersei (the micromanager, who never explains how to do something, but then when you do it, it’s always wrong, and has openly said to me that my department is just filled with unmotivated idiots) will be my direct manager following the departure of Sansa in 3 weeks.

    Can I just say I am not looking forward to this?

    Guess I need to increase my efforts to find a New Job.

  40. Petite Clothing*

    Is there anyone petite who can recommend some good stores for petite business clothing? I’m on the short side of petite. Even petite pants are too long. I need short petite pants and I find it so hard to find good clothing that fits properly. Normal petite tops fit, I just don’t know where to find them other then steinmart.

    1. Lore*

      I’ve had some luck with Banana Republic, and also with the styles that the store calls “ankle” or “short” length–Uniqlo’s “ankle” jeans, for example, fit me correctly, and Express’s “short” length pants are generally the right length. (However, while I’m very short, I’m also incredibly short-waisted so my legs may be longer than yours.) Also, Uniqlo doesn’t seem to advertise this, but they do free hemming on a lot of their pants (anything that costs over $29, I believe, and $5 for cheaper pants). Hemming in general is pretty inexpensive, too.

      1. Petite Clothing*

        I have a long torso so even for 5’0 I have extremely short legs. I do hem my pants a lot, but I find with my short legs the knee is often in the wrong place so it looks awkward.

        1. Lady Jay*

          Are you me? Long torso, short legs. It is SO hard to find stuff that fits me. I often wind up wearing heels so I don’t have to continually get pants hemmed. It also makes me look a little taller. :)

        2. Jules the First*

          Ah – in that case you need a tailor to re-grade the leg (not just hemming but also tweaking the side seams at the knee to reshape the leg). It’s a little more involved than having things just hemmed (and no store will do it for free because they need to fit you in the trousers), but it will fix the proportions.

    2. Manders*

      I usually buy normal-length pants with some stretch in them and then tuck the hems up and under, or tuck the bunched up bits at my ankles inside boots. I think the only reliable option for us tiny people is hemming, though.

    3. tiny temping teapot*

      If you’re under a size 14, Anthropologie has a lot of cute petite stuff. If you’re a size 14 or above, forget it.

    4. Jules the First*

      Banana Republic has a small petite collection of office-worthy stuff but it can be hit and miss whether you’ll find it in any given store (though they make the whole collection available online, which is helpful). The stuff I’ve gotten from them has also been surprisingly durable. You can also keep an eye out for cropped trousers – BR did a whole bunch last season that were supposed to be mid-calf and ended up being exactly the right length for me as normal trousers.

      Your other option is to make very good friends with a tailor – I buy a lot of stuff at very big discounts at the end of the season, then take it to my tailor and have him rework it into something that fits me flawlessly. It takes some practice finding stuff that will re-grade well and I usually only do it with sale stuff because it can cost as much again to have them refitted (ie, I spend $40 on a dress that’s regular price $110, and I’ll end up spending $40-60 on the tailoring).

    5. Casper Lives*

      I’m also a short-even-for-petite woman. I find Ann Taylor petite suits are sometimes short enough on top or bottom (never both at the same time, sadly), and Macy’s Inc petite short sleeve shirts are good. Sometimes capri pants are the perfect full length for me. Most of the time, I’ve got to hem everything.

    6. Helpdesk lady*

      Have you tried Dillards? I have several pairs of their Investments pants (park ave fit) and I know they come in several lengths including Regular, Petite, Petite Short, Short and Long. Plus they wash and wear well.

    7. the_scientist*

      LOFT, Ann Taylor and Banana Republic all do petite clothing, both in-store and online. Most of my work clothing

      GAP and Old Navy sell petite clothing, but only online-I’ve actually had pretty good luck with Old Navy petite stuff! Of course, ON might be too casual for your workplace and the quality can definitely be hit or miss. Banana Republic, GAP and Old Navy do easy, hassle-free shipping and returns for online orders (free shipping over a minimum purchase amount), so I do most of my shopping online.

      Also! Uniqlo doesn’t do petite sizing but they do offer free alterations in-store!

    9. Thlayli*

      Assuming you’re in America Ann Taylor is great. Every time I go to the states I go to Anne Taylor. In American sizes I’m 0P (zero petite) on the top and 2P on the bottom.

    10. The OG Anonsie*

      This is my life. Most of my slacks are petite Ann Taylor sizes *in ankle and crop cuts* which are then normal pants length on me. I also wear a lot of dark wash or black jeans from American Eagle in their regular length, which actually works better than the short length for me. Also regular length cheapo jeans from Forever 21 and sometimes H&M. Sometimes these are also supposed to be ankle cut, but that makes them fine on me.

      Places I shop that sometimes have a selection in petites or run on the petite side:
      -Asos
      -Dorothy Perkins
      -Ann Taylor
      -Banana Republic
      -American Eagle
      -H&M
      -Forever 21 (the cheap legging jeans, style dependent)
      -Eddie Bauer (especially for outerwear)
      -Land’s End (yes, really. I have a ton of cuuute stuff from there, I swear)

    11. zora*

      Nordstrom has a lot of lines that they stock in petite, I’m especially thinking of Halogen which is their basic workwear line. And they do pant hemming for free in house, so you can get them hemmed right in the store. They also do additional tailoring in house, but you do have to pay for those.

    12. AliceBD*

      Belk! Or Macy’s.

      And if you’re plus size, Catherine’s.

      I’m 5′ so I feel you with the petite pants being too long, but I’ve had good luck with the above stores and with finding a reputable tailor.

    14. AcademiaNut*

      If you’re also skinny (US size 8 or less), and live in or near a large city with a large East Asian population, you could check to see if there are stores catering to them – East Asian clothing sizes run shorter and slimmer than Western sizes, with some women having great difficulty finding adult sized business clothing in the West, so you might have luck there.

    15. Clever Name*

      If off the rack petite pants are too long, you may have to bite the bullet and get your pants hemmed. I’m a petite size with a very short torso and long legs (30 inseam), and I often end up buying regular pants and hemming them. It sucks to have to pay to modify your clothing, especially when men’s pants have much more granularity in sizing, but it’s easier than trying to find a unicorn pair of pants that fits off the rack.

  41. Night Cheese*

    I’m hoping to pick everyone’s more-experienced brains.

    I’ve been at my job for a little over a year and a half. It’s my first job out of college so I’m not really sure where to go from here. The thing is, I hate my job. My bosses, while not horrible to me personally, are unethical and do not value their employees. They’ve run off a lot of potentially great employees due to their obsessive micromanaging and unrealistic expectations.

    One of my bosses just called me into his office to discuss my future at the company. As the only Teapot Designer, I’ve done a lot that I otherwise wouldn’t have been able to do at a bigger company which I appreciate. He told me that he likes my design work, but would like me to grow into a more business development side of things that I’ve helped out with here and there even though it wasn’t part of my job and wasn’t something I wanted to do long-term. We’re a small company so a lot of “multiple hat wearing” happens here. He wanted to gauge my interest in shifting my career path to what he was thinking and I told him honestly that while I’m happy to help, I didn’t want to shift things to that track and my interests were more in the creative aspect of the Teapot industry. I mentioned marketing which he ran with and mentioned that I could grow into that role by getting more involved in the bd side of things, coordinating Teapot proposals, etc…which is what I initially said I didn’t want my job to become.

    What’s swaying me is that he said he would be happy with significantly increasing my salary based on these new responsibilities and that being able to grow into a Teapot Marketing Director position might open a lot of doors for me professionally in the future. In my job search now, I’ve run into the issue where while I did a lot of high-level work at my small company, it’s still not enough experience to transition into a similar position at a bigger one.

    So if you made it to the end of this, is it worth it to stay at a job I hate doing work I don’t like if it means there’s the potential (eventually) to grow into a position that I’m more interested in? Do I run the risk of pigeon-holing myself in a career track I don’t want to be in where I won’t be able to bring it back to the creative work I want to do in the future? Help, AAM friends! This “being an adult” business is hard sometimes.

    1. neverjaunty*

      Was there a concrete timeline and details given about that salary increase? Such as, “we’d like you to start working in Teapot Business Development now and then your salary will be increased 10% next month”? Because if not, this is the oldest bad boss trick in the book: dumping more responsibilities on you in return for promises of a “significant” raise that is always right around the corner.

      You already know these people are unethical.

      1. Night Cheese*

        It wasn’t so concrete, but he mentioned towards the end of the year when we do evaluations again.

        1. neverjaunty*

          That is not concrete; that is dangling a promise in front of you to get you to take on additional job duties you don’t want while paying you exactly zero extra.

    2. MissGirl*

      This a tough one. Where do you see yourself a year down the road or a few years? What choice aligns most with that?

      I say this as someone who never could figure out the next step and lost a lot of years because of that.

      1. Night Cheese*

        Putting it that way, being at my company now is definitely not where I want to be. I’ve been trying for months to try and find a way to get out.

        And what you mentioned about losing years is exactly what I’m afraid of. My parents are both immigrants and their job search experience was very different from what I’ve been navigating now, so it gets a little overwhelming. I know my early career years is when I need to work hard to gain the experience to move up, but it’s hard to tell if something is going to be worth it in the end and I didn’t want to just hard pass on this in case there was something in it that I wasn’t seeing.

        1. MissGirl*

          What positions are you searching for? What’s stopping them from hiring you? What positions do you see that interest you but you know you’re not qualified yet? Does this new position help you get any closer?

          What happens if you take the job but hate it? What are your options? Don’t make a decision out of fear.

        2. Emily*

          IMO, it seems like you’re at a great point to move on to a different position that’s more in line with what you want to do. 18 months is a pretty decent run, and I don’t think there’s anything that should stop you from finding something better.

          It really sounds like this guy wants you to do work that you wouldn’t like–which may not be worth the extra money to you.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This.
            Go back to square one: These are UNethical people. If you do marketing you will be promoting the work of unethical people. I don’t think this is where you want to be.

            It is good that he says it will take to the end of the year. You can job search like crazy and get to a better spot in the same time frame.

  42. Paging Dr. Freud*

    This is a weird one: I can’t stop dreaming about a former coworker. We worked in the same department for about a year; then he transferred departments. He still works in the same building, but our paths rarely cross. About the only time I see him anymore is… in my dreams, almost every night.

    While we worked together, I developed a pretty significant crush on him and sometimes I got the sense it went both ways. But I’m very happily married and so is he, so I’d never act on the crush in a thousand years. Nothing good will ever come of this, so I really would prefer the dreams to stop.

    Does anyone have techniques to stop dreaming about a particular thing or person?

    1. Rincat*

      With my dreams, usually a person like that is representing some problem I’ve been dwelling on sort of subconsciously, something I’m worried about. Typically there are strong emotions surrounding that person when they show up in my dreams, so I would unpack those emotions and think about what concerns you might have in your life right now. Since it’s a person from work, are you having any work related anxieties? What does this guy represent to you in context of work?

      1. Sally*

        Yeah, people in dreams are usually a proxy for a big other thing (or multiple other things) and sometimes if you talk through what the person’s presence represents, it defuses it a bit for your brain and it can stop fixating on it.

    2. Manders*

      Ah, the weirdness of crush dreams. I still have the occasional dream about my high school crush, and I graduated over 10 years ago. I am also happily married to someone else and I haven’t spoken to that guy in years.

      Are you taking any sleep aids or medications that make you drowsy before bed? I’ve found that even mild sleep aids like melatonin make my dreams way weirder and more emotionally intense.

    3. Fictional Butt*

      This advice isn’t super-specific in terms of not dreaming about a specific person, but I have a few things I do to combat dreaming in general (my brain is a huge fan of giant crazy exhausting dreams):
      1. Exercise. Not right before bed, but a long walk an hour or two before bed seems to work well for me.
      2. Keeping yourself mentally engaged after work– do something that requires you to refocus on something else, like cooking a complicated meal, reading a book, meeting up with friends, etc. Don’t just sit in front of the TV steeping in your work thoughts.
      3. Give yourself a good hour or so to wind down before bed. Meditation is good. Allow your brain to turn off slowly before you sleep.

    4. S.I. Newhouse*

      Part of the problem might be that he still pops up from time to time. You mentioned that your paths still cross occasionally. If you have the luxury of doing so, maybe you should alter your schedule so that your paths don’t cross at all. I could well be wrong here… but either way, good luck.

    5. zora*

      This is not exactly what you are asking so feel free to ignore, but I started using the Sleep Cycle app as my alarm, which wakes me up in the lightest point of my sleep cycle and I almost never remember my dreams anymore, so you could try that?? If you don’t remember the dream it’s like it never happened, right?? ;o)

    6. nonegiven*

      When you have time, really daydream it up, details, where, when, how. Get yourself worked up and use the energy to fuel your own relationship. It will burn itself out, eventually and you’ll wonder why you ever crushed in the first place.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You may be happy but you also may be bored.
      When was the last time you challenged yourself? Bonus points for finding a challenge that you and your spouse can do together.
      OTH, maybe it is time you and your spouse took a big vacation trip or bought a house or got a dog. Mix it up. It could be the dream just represents your private feeling of stagnation. Human beings do not do well with stagnation.
      Think about what is realistic and what you can do to grow yourself.

  43. katamia*

    How soon after asking for a grad school reference/recommendation can you leave a job? I’m applying mostly for fall 2018, so I’ll be asking for a rec sometime toward the end of this year. But I’m so miserable living in this area and want to take a few months to travel between this job and starting grad school (assuming I get in). (I also freelance and do work that requires nothing but a laptop and Internet, so I’d be freelancing while traveling.) If I ask for a recommendation in, say, late October and leave in March or April, is that too soon? Presumably they’d know that the grad program wouldn’t be starting until August or September.

    1. Pwyll*

      Presumably they’re going to know that you’re leaving for school either way, right? You should leave when you’re ready to, and provide adequate notice (2 weeks to a month) unless you know they don’t let people serve out their notice periods. More time if you want to be generous. But your rationale for leaving before school starts isn’t really any of their business, so I don’t think you should feel you have an obligation to stay right up until school starts. And if for some bizarre reason they press, you can say something like. “Oh, thank you but I really need to focus on preparing for my move, so my last day will be xyz.” Or, “I really need to reset in advance of my studies, so I can’t stay any later than xyz. But I’ll work with you to document and put things in order up until then.”

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! They’re super flexible about that sort of thing in general (boss has said variations on “We want to support you to do what you have to do” and they seem to be very generous about letting people take time off, so I believe him), so I don’t think they’ll press too much. I just don’t want to make it look like I was only in it for the recommendation because my reference situation is terrible and I might want to use them again after grad school.

    2. stuff happens*

      I say leave whenever you are ready. (As long as they have the references sent in.) It’s not unprofessional or burning any bridges to say that you want to take some time off before going back to school. Unless they are extremely unreasonable, I don’t think you’ll have any issues.

  44. Erin*

    My team at work is starting a “Learning Initiative” thing where at our weekly meeting we’ll take turns presenting an article, e-book, podcast, etc. with valuable information relating to what we do. I’m up next and I’d love to highlight one of Alison’s articles or podcasts.

    We’re in marketing, so if she’s by chance done anything relating to marketing, writing, or social media that would be great. It could also be a more broad topic that would applicable to a lot of workplaces, like on time management. (Nothing on managing or interviewing though, that wouldn’t be applicable for this.)

    Anyone have any suggestions with one of Alison’s articles that appeared on Inc or a similar site, or with a podcast, or anything along those lines? :)

    2. Mints*

      I’m on mobile, but a couple of the best stand alone posts (imo) are the task vs relationship oriented & the interview with hildi on how to be diplomatic

    3. NDR*

      For future presentations, there’s a new podcast called “I Hate My Boss” that uses a fictional/dramatized ad agency as a starting off point for discussing more universal work issues. The dramatized bits are a little cheesy, but the advice, guests, and hosts are good and in line with what you’d find on AAM.

  45. Tomato Frog*

    I’m applying for a job at a university that requires letters of reference. I knew it was coming, but I’m still so annoyed. I feel like the employer is taking the time they should be spending on doing their due diligence and offloading all the work onto my references — who are already doing me a favor by agreeing to be references in the first place! They shouldn’t have to write an essay on top of it.

    I was once a reference for a coworker who was applying for a job at a university and they required references to fill out a three-page form, with radio button answers and free text portions. It took me forever to do and ultimately they could’ve gotten just as much information out of me from a ten minute conversation — probably more, actually.

    Anyway, I’m mostly complaining because I’m grumpy that I have to ask my references to do this, even before the in-person interview happens. I’m having to call in favors when, for all I know, I won’t even want the job.

    TL/DR: Blargh, reference letters.

    1. Anxa*

      As an applicant, I hate this. The single biggest pain in applying to jobs is the references thing, because I’ve been a giant failure and it’s humiliating to ask people year after year when I have few newer references.

      To on top of that have them have to fill out those surveys, BEFORE I’M EVEN INTERVIEWED, is the effing worst.

      I want to live in AAM world where this is not the norm, but it’s been pretty prevalent in my personal experience and I hate it.

      1. Bilbiovore*

        Wait,
        I have one better. I was in my academic position for over 4 years when the assistant dean came to me and said I needed written letters of recommendation. Turns out that it was some kind of state certification requirement. The letters needed to be in my file by Friday. It was Wednesday at 4:00 when he made the request. I emailed my contacts for emergency references that night.

        1. Anxa*

          Yes, that’s the part that gets to me!

          I applied for this job weeks ago and now all of the sudden I get an email letting me know I have 48 hours to turn these surveys around to you before you even call me about my actual resume?

          Best part? I got turned down for one of these jobs because I was recommended for the job by people that worked there, and they interviewers/HR didn’t realize that my work experience was volunteer, and thus didn’t count. They could have READ MY RESUME before asking me to pester 3 references to spend an hour on those surveys. And they expired every 6 months, so I had to have some of them do it more than once.

    2. Pwyll*

      This is terrible. I’ve only ever had to do a survey like that as a reference once, and it was because my former employee was applying for security clearance. That’s insane!

      1. Tomato Frog*

        And she had to provide six references, too! At least I only have to ask three people.

    3. Gingerblue*

      I don’t know if this makes sense for the positions you’re applying for or not, but could you use a dossier service like Interfolio? Your references upload their letters to it, they’re kept on file and you can then send them to an email address or upload them to an application form without bothering your letter writers. (I’m coming from the faculty side of academic job apps; no idea if it works the same for other university positions or not. But for the jobs I’ve been applying for they usually assume you’re using a service like that rather than having to ask your recommenders over and over, which is one of the reasons everyone asks for them.) If this is obvious; sorry; I can’t tell from your post if you’re applying to the sort of career track where it would be or not.

      The survey thing is totally outside of my experience, though, and sounds nuts.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        I’m applying for academic library jobs, so it’s in this gray area where they sort of ape faculty hiring in some ways but not in others. In my experience, one of the ways in which they usually don’t copy faculty hiring is in letters of reference — this is the first time I’ve been asked for them, and so I’m just annoyed that they want them at all. But the Interfolio thing is good to know in case this comes up again. I appreciate the tip!

  46. Allergic to Chocolate Teapots*

    I got an interview for the Chocolate Teapots position I applied to at Other Company. However, the hiring manager sprung this on me at the last minute: “I know our ad said the salary range is A-Z, but actually we’re only going to be offering up to D for the position. Are you still interested?” It would have been a 10% salary cut, and they were not flexible to negotiating any other options so I glumly bowed out. Now I’m really second guessing myself. Would it be weird to call back and ask to come in after all? I hate going backwards, but the toxic culture here is making me sick.

    1. Jules the First*

      Stay strong. Anyone who will bait and switch like that on salary before the interview is not someone you want to work for. You made the right call!

    3. Anono-me*

      What are the chances that the salary range will drop to A-C if they do interview you?

    4. JulieBulie*

      At least they had the courtesy to tell you before the interview… from letters I’ve read on AAM, some don’t say anything until they make the offer.

      Your gut reaction was the right one. It’s not a good sign that they rather suddenly decided to cut the original range.

    5. Gingerblue*

      Agreed with the others; that’s a terrible sign about what working there would be like.

  47. MsEsq*

    Yesterday’s post on arrival times, and the position many of the comments took, made me want to talk about the counter-example (I would have posted there, but wasn’t able to read this morning). I work in higher education, and, generally, our school tended to not be fussy about arrival times, especially since we lived in an area where your commute could legitimately be 15 minutes or 45.

    Of course, there was a co-worker who took advantage of it. He would schedule appointments with students at 10, and waltz in at 10:10 EVERY morning and look at them sheepishly with an excuse for why he was late. He was out sick for five days with a cold, and came in the next morning at 10:35 and said it was because “his internal clock must have reset after being able to sleep in.” He claimed he had talked to our manager and that it was fine he came in at 10, because he worked until 6 or 7 – except we all left at 5/5:30, so no one was around to see if this was true. I tried not to pay too much attention to it, because I wasn’t supervising him.

    He wasn’t a good fit in our office for this and other reasons, so he moved to another job and wound up getting promoted. This only made the attendance issues worst. He served as registrar and on the FIRST day of classes it was 1:30 before he was in the building. We had students coming to us demanding to know where he was and getting angry with us that no one was there to answer his questions.

    No one ever stepped in to correct or deal with this issue. My manager said it was because they would have to come down on “everyone” about being flexible with arrival time, which…no. That’s not how it works at all. But I feel like when there are these kinds of policies in place there’s always someone who takes advantage (two, now, at my NewJob), and no one says anything because they feel like they can’t distinguish between folks who arrive within a 10-15 minute window every day and people who waltz in whenever they want.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That, to me, has less to do with being on time and more to do with doing your job… and it sounds as if he wasn’t doing his. If you make an appointment with someone at 10:00 and show up at 10:10, you’re not doing you’re job, especially if that’s fairly consistent behavior (and not a one-off). If, however, you’re expected to be at work at 10:00 but really can do your work just fine if you come in at 10:10, that’s fine (that wasn’t the case in what you described).

      Same with this:
      We had students coming to us demanding to know where he was and getting angry with us that no one was there to answer his questions.

      The issue people have with strict time schedules is that they’re usually arbitrary (unless you’re a receptionist or someone else who has to be there). Whether you’re a receptionist, registrar, director… whatever you are, if you aren’t there when people need you to be there or have to meet with you, you aren’t doing your job.

    2. Observer*

      These are not counter-examples. They are examples of clear performance issues that management is too spineless to address.

      This guy needed to be called out for *being late to appointments*. Period. That doesn’t require a policy change, because the unwritten policy in any same place is that you show up on time to appointments!

  48. eliza d*

    Dear friends, I thought I would share my story.

    I applied for a job literally at the stroke of midnight on Monday. I got a follow-up call on Tuesday, and had my interview on Thursday. I was absolutely baffled at how quickly everything happened. Not to mention that this was the VERY FIRST job I applied to. They also told me at the interview that I was the VERY FIRST candidate they decided to interview.

    I don’t know 100% if I want to leave my current job yet but I know I have time to decide as they continue their interview process. But it’s amazing what just one interview can do for your self-confidence. I’ve been working at the same place with varying degrees of frustration for 4 years and it starts to feel inevitable that you just go with the flow and you’re stuck there forever. It’s really heartening to know that I have skills and I’m desirable.

    Tidbits:
    * The hiring manager told me specifically that so many people don’t even bother with cover letters anymore and she really liked mine and appreciated that I included one. I got a little fanciful with it and I felt uncomfortable praising myself so much but I think that’s a sign that I did it right!

    * We did not specifically discuss salary (although I had to put my range in the form when I applied for the job) but I was asked if I was hourly or salaried and how many hours I usually worked at my current position.

    * Standard questions asked: Why are you leaving your current job? What do you know about the company? What kind of working environment do you thrive in? (I didn’t prepare for that one.) If you had downtime at this position, what would you do?

    * Nonstandard question asked: Define “hard work.” I stumbled a little bit on this one but ultimately said it was a mixture of discipline and motivation/inspiration/”fire inside” that kept you going.

    * In the beginning “tell me about yourself” my interviewer also specifically wanted to know about my hobbies and outside of work. I had not really planned to get into that much detail (like mentioning my fountain pen hobby…) but we really connected over it.

    Even though I spent a lot of money on interview clothing (4 years working at a super-casual workplace means I’m totally out of slacks and blazers) and a lot of time getting stressed out, I’m really happy with how everything went and it makes me feel a lot better not just about job hunting, but about working toward getting to a better place in my current job. And I think Ask a Manager had a big part in that, so thank you Alison!

    1. Hrovitnir*

      That is cool! Also I am completely bemused by the idea of not including a cover letter: how on earth has that become a thing? I have a lot of sympathy for people who struggle with writing them, but it seems like such a central part of job searching to me.

      1. JamieS*

        I think part of it has to do with online applications becoming more commonplace even in professional jobs. When I was on the hunt several years ago, most of the online apps I filled out had a section to provide any additional information. Assuming applicants use this extra space to highlight their skills putting it in the application itself and then also sending a cover letter may seem like overkill.

        IMO people also seem to be writing less overall so writing an entire letter may seem like overkill. Letters are being replaced with short emails, taking notes is being replaced with recording on your phone, heck people are even having texting conversations consisting of just emojis with no actual words.

        Personally as someone who overall hates cover letters I wouldn’t mind a complete change in professional norms when it comes to them. Yes, I realize that’s probably a pipe dream and no I don’t really have trouble writing them. I just don’t like them.

  49. Free Meerkats (formerly Gene)*

    The missing office kitty has returned! The boy cat went missing while I was at a conference last Wednesday. This morning he was waiting to come in for gooshy food when I got here. I was first in this morning. And he almost let me pet him. (I’m the guy who did the trapping and transporting to the feral cat clinic, so I’m obviously evil.)

    Yay!

  50. Anonon*

    I manage the distribution of work for myself and my colleague, and my colleague often get overwhelmed and stressed out any time I start to try to distribute the work evenly between us, but when i pull back the level of work accordingly, they gets frustrated and tells me I’m not giving her enough work. The extent of the stress is that they are leaving the room crying multiple times a day at least once or twice a week, needing to leave early because of this, and not being able to accomplish the assigned task. It also results in generally cold and aggressive behavior which frequently involves them snapping at me over standard work-related conversations. This has been going on and off for at least 9 months. They recognize that this position is not a good fit, and I think they’re actively looking for other work, but in the meantime, how do i handle this? I’m not their manager, but I am the only person overseeing their work. How do a balance what they are saying with their actions? Our manager is very hands off and was opposed to their initial hiring in the first place, so I’m hesitant to get our manager involved because it would basically mean throwing them under the bus. In the meantime, I’m doing most of the work, and don’t feel like i can distribute the work evenly because of my colleagues behavior. Any guidance or suggestions would be helpful.

    1. LCL*

      She may be crappy at her assigned tasks but she’s a pretty effective trainer.
      Figure out what you think is a fair division, since it sounds like this is part of your job, give her the part of the job that belongs to her, and move on. If she cries, she cries. If she snaps at you, turn your back on her, or tell her you won’t talk to her when she is using that tone on you. Or that you will talk to her when she is calmer.

      1. Celeste*

        Brilliant answer. Don’t be afraid to go to headphones as she adjusts to your boundary.

    2. Observer*

      Agreeing with LCL. And if the work doesn’t get done, go to your manager. It’s not throwing her under the bus if she’s not getting the work done and throwing fits into the bargain.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Throwing someone under the bus is when you unfairly let someone take the blame. Talking to your manager about someone who is not doing their job properly in a way that directly affects you is not throwing them under the bus. You don’t have the authority to, say, put her on a PIP or other means of getting her to shape up, and your manager can’t manage her if she doesn’t know what’s going on.

      I’d go to your manager, and lay it out clearly – if you divide the work evenly, the result is frequent tears and the work not getting done, but if you assign work that she’s able to handle, you are over worked, and she complains that she’s not being assigned enough to do.

  51. Kowalski! Options!*

    Quick yes or no question (which is kind of tied to DougJudy’s question at the top.)
    You’re taking a course at a local community college as part of your personal learning plan.
    You don’t have official certification in the subject, but you have nearly two decades of experience in the subject matter. You quickly realize that you know a LOT more than the instructor does, and that you could do a much better job than the instructor does.
    If circumstances permit (i.e. you won’t get in trouble at CurrentJob for applying for a part-time teaching position), do you contact the college and say, hire me?

    1. Manders*

      It probably wouldn’t hurt to try, but be aware that there may be reasons why this instructor can’t or won’t be removed from this job. For instance: he might have tenure (yes, community colleges do have tenure options), he might have a flexible schedule, he might be friends with the head of the department, he might be a known and trusted quality while you’re unknown, etc.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        She admitted to us that she got brought in very last-minute (so last minute that she forgot to put her name in the welcome “hi my name is…” paragraph in the learning management system). And friends of mine have taught for this institution, and unless you’re very senior in the organization, you’re only hired to teach specific courses.

        1. Manders*

          In that case, go for it! But do be aware that the kind of place that brings people in last-minute like that can be a real headache to deal with. Give some serious thought to whether you could plan a curriculum on the fly, deal with never knowing if you’re on next semester’s schedule, and so on.

          1. Kowalski! Options!*

            Good points, thanks. And for the food for thought…your point about organizing the course on the fly makes me wonder if that’s the issue with the course, that she’s shoehorning what she knows about the subject (in general) into the requirements set by the community college.

            1. Manders*

              Yeah, there’s a very good chance that’s what happened. My husband taught a survey course at a community college, and even though the department was great about giving him as much advanced notice as they possibly could, he spent a lot of time on course planning and still worried that it wasn’t enough.

              Community colleges can be an awesome place to pick up some work on the side, but they can also be total disasters if teachers aren’t given enough time to plan.

    2. Anxa*

      Is this class credit or non-credit?

      If it’s credit, you’ll probably need a masters or the terminal certification to teach.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        It’s credit, for a certificate program (four courses, four weeks each). I have an M.A. (earned last year) and seventeen years of designing courses.

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Depends on the school and the area. Where I live job requirements have inflated to where community college teachers need at least a master’s degree and appropriate certifications. So having few certifications and a college diploma with 25 years experience means colleges won’t even let me apply for a teaching position.

      If you’re in an area where they still value experience, then check the school’s website. The HR section will often list part time teaching opportunities. If they don’t then try contacting the program coordinator/chair.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      You can try this, but frankly, I would be surprised if it would work. First of all, most colleges (even community colleges) have to be accredited and part of the accrediting process is showing people have terminal degrees or certifications in their subject area. So, they won’t hire folks for credit baring classes that don’t have whatever counts for this in their field.

      Secondly, you run the risk of coming off as really out of touch. “I swear I would be better than this guy” is a pretty strange way to pitch for a job and I think could come off as really arrogant and pushy.

      I am sorry that the class hasn’t turned out to be useful to you though. That always sucks.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        It’s bad. If I don’t complete the four classes and get the certificate I don’t get the money back, but frankly, I think I’ll just eat it on the course fees for this one. I’d get more out of spending an afternoon in the library of the local university’s education faculty.

    5. Iris Carpenter*

      Step 1 is to actually complain. Make sure you complain to whatever body accredits the institution, and CC it to the den of the department. Include the president of the institution and anybody else you think should know.

    6. Emmie*

      I’d consider these approaches:
      1. Discussing it with your current professor. “Hey, you said x but I have y and would be very interesting in teaching this class. How can I help?” Or, perhaps volunteer to help her get up to speed, or know some more foundational topics. This could be a good way to have a reference the next time this class opens.
      2. Approach the school, or department dean. I don’t recommend complaining about the course. I’d say “hey, I have x, and y credentials and can teach the course.” I hesitate doing this.
      3. Apply for the next open position. Look back at the old job post for instructor’s credentials, and build your CV. College accreditors have very particular educational requirements. So, if your degrees are in a completely different area and you do not have the certificates, the college may not be able to hire you. I don’t say this to discourage you. I want you to look closely at those education requirements and not to take it personally if they cannot hire you. (and perhaps use that as motivation to get the credentials to back up your experience.) Keep in mind credential requirements can vary depending on program type (an adult learning non-credit class might not be so particular, but a credit bearing college class will be.) Good Luck!

  52. Clouds in My Coffee*

    Question about filling in for a manager’s maternity/family leave: My boss and her partner are in the process of adopting a baby in a nearby state. It happened suddenly and requires that they be in that state to handle all sorts of paperwork issues, so for the past two weeks I’ve been covering for her, though she checks in via email about once a day and has come in for a day or two each week. Once the adoption is finalized (we hope next week), she will take four weeks total of family leave.

    I’m the most senior person in my small group, and while our jobs overlap somewhat, we specialize in different things. So I’m covering for a job that I do not do on a regular basis and that requires a ton of work. Often I’ll cover for her for a day or two at a time, but I’ve never done so this consistently. It’s hard work! I have some help but I’m basically doing two jobs at the moment. To make matters more complicated, one of my coworkers is leaving next week, so I’ll be adding a lot of his work to my plate as well.

    My question is this: Is it appropriate to expect to be compensated for this extra work/responsibility? If so, when should I bring that up? My boss and I are close, so I’m very excited and happy for her and don’t want to interrupt her joy by being … pushy. But I’m also not doing this out of the goodness of my heart, you know? Would love to hear from others who have gone through similar.

    1. Nichole*

      I would think these sorts of short-term assignments wouldn’t really be compensation worthy. What might make more sense is figuring out what are the high priority things that need to happen and how dropped or pushed off can the rest of it be. Basically performing triage on the job responsibilities, because expecting you to just do it all isn’t reasonable

      I mean, I guess you could argue for some sort of bonus for work well done if you feel that you did an exceptional job covering etc.

      1. Clouds in My Coffee*

        Thanks for the comment. The thing about her job is that everything — truly everything — is high priority. Instead of my own work, I end up emailing 30+ people and trafficking and putting out fires all day. A total of 6 weeks of that seems like a lot. I’ve also had several colleagues say, unprompted, that they hope I get a promotion or raise for my work; that’s influenced my thinking, of course.

        1. Nichole*

          I guess the reason I would think it would feel weird about the raise or the promotion is that that’s a long-term reaction to a short-term issue. Now, if it’s an expansion of your job duties to include coverage of her duties on occasion, which includes this instance, I think I can see the argument. And if it’s a ‘I’m a really valuable member of your team who can competently step in to situations outside my current wheelhouse and that’s useful for you more than just this once’ I can see it there. But I think that’s taking these six weeks and applying it to the broader reality, which I think is the only way to bring it up. In which case it would be brought up after the actual leave is taken.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      If these situations are supposed to be temporary, then unfortunately I think it’s pretty normal to be asked to cover for other people without any extra comp.

      On the other hand, what you can do is start setting boundaries on how much you can do. Like, I think it’s reasonable for you to tell your boss, “I can help cover stuff for you while you take care of the adoption, but I’m not going to be able to manage that and Fergus’s workload too, once he’s out. What should we do?”

      Hopefully the answer involves reprioritization of tasks so that you do only the most critical items of the other two jobs, and/or hiring some temp help, and/or distributing tasks among the others in your group.

      If your boss is unreasonable and of the “just find a way to get it all done” variety, then I think maybe you have to set it out in terms of how many hours you’d have to devote to each person’s job so she can’t deny that it’s too much for one person.

    3. WellRed*

      My boss went on maternity leave, 3 months. Then, the other editor on our team of three gave notice. I got a bonus of $1500, but believe me, i had to ask. She also put systems in place in advance, plus we’ve worked together forever. I was also empowered to Not. Do. Everything. Some stuff got done differently or not at all.

  53. Sally*

    How do you all deal with slacker project partners?

    I work on a small, highly collaborative team where partnerships on projects are frequent. One team member simply does not take on the workload the rest of us do.

    Examples: he is a project lead but deflects, delegates or ignores any detail-oriented work, such as contract review, any of our more technical processes, or anything that really demands the brain space to be a real “lead.” He pads his schedule by going to lots of meetings and other things he doesn’t strictly need to be at, in order to avoid sit-at-desk, get-acutal-work-done time. In “work meetings,” he often detaches and/or lets other team members do any heavy lifting or detail-oriented work. He will word vomit into a doc and let everyone else clean it up, for instance. He will space out in meetings he should really be leading.

    I’m a grown up and I get styles are different, and I’m not presuming I can “change” his essential nature. I think if he were content to just be a cog in the wheel, this would be fine. But he often goes out of his way to advocate for his own “stellar” work at the same time, he’ll put on a show of working from home when he’s just not doing much there, and I know that he’ll aggressively be advocating for a pay raise while the rest of us are doing the same. If I try (diplomatically) to point out something he could/should be doing for a project, he’ll make a big deal about how he could do that next week or the week after, but not today, even when it’s obvious he’s padding his schedule and not really getting through all that much “work.”

    Conflict is typically addressed indirectly in this environment. Manager is aware there’s an issue but isn’t the type to have a very direct conversation about behaviors or frame things in terms of performance issues. One coworker knows there’s an issue and in her projects with him, she basically just overwhelms him with work so he’s always playing catch-up. Another coworker compensates for him a lot, without really realizing it, I think.

    Clearly defined roles have worked to a certain extent, but I still find myself taking on quite a bit of work that belongs to him–he’ll do the bare minimum of what he’s asked and often no more.

    1. neverjaunty*

      There’s not much to be done until everybody gets over their terror of being direct.

      1. Sally*

        I’m direct myself (and agree in an issue as serious as this), but the style of several people here is not the same, and I have to navigate more indirect methods if I want to be effective and avoid alienating people.

        The problem is that this partner takes advantage of both his and everyone else’s indirectness to create a space where he has little accountability. I don’t know if he’ll be able to maintain exactly this space forever, because a lot of language is floating around about making our processes and team more efficient, but those changes can be slow and incremental, and at his age personalities don’t typically make drastic changes. So I’m looking for stopgap techniques or coping strategies.

        1. neverjaunty*

          I hear you. Unfortunately the only ways I’ve found to deal with this nonsense are to be direct with the person and Broken Record Mode (“that’s interesting, Fergus. We need you to have the teapot spec ready tomorrow”).

    2. Seal*

      I had one of those in graduate school. Not only did she try to appoint herself as project manager, she literally had no idea of what was going on with our project. Unfortunately, the rest of the group didn’t want any drama so no one ever really confronted her, just worked around her. However, everyone on the group absolutely trashed her on the final evaluations, to the point her grade was lower than everyone else’s. I’m sure she had no idea why that happened.

      1. Ashie*

        >I’m sure she had no idea why that happened

        This is so frustrating to me! She deserves to know, your team deserves someone who knows what’s going on, and her next team deserves it too. Just tell her!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think your coworker who overwhelms him is showing you all the way here.

      OR Give him a hard deadline. “A needs to be done by next Wednesday.” When it is not done, jot it down some where. REPEAT. Then go to the boss and say this person was not pulling his weight so you gave him hard deadlines and he is still failing to meet the deadlines. So the boss the examples you have collected up.

  54. Nichole*

    I asked for a promotion this week! I was a bit nervous, but I basically went ‘I want to stay here, you like my work and want me to stay here. I’ve been doing really good work and I think I’m at the point where it’s time for a promotion or to at least see what that path forward looks like.’

    My manager agreed that I deserve the promotion! It’s not as simple as that (in fact it’s a lot more complicated) but that’s a very good step. It sounds like he was already aware of that but me asking puts some more pressure, which is probably good. He complimented me on bringing it up, so that’s probably a good sign too, hah.

    1. Rincat*

      Congrats! Always nerve wracking but it sounds like it went well. I hope they are able to promote you. I had a similar conversation with my boss at my 3 month review a couple weeks ago, and while a promotion is not imminent (like it will probably take another 6-12 months…yay state university), he really wants me to have career growth. It’s so refreshing to have bosses like that!

      1. Buffy*

        Funny timing – I have my year end review (only been at this job for 8 months though) at my large state university. Based on some really glowing feedback from all different levels at the university, I’m hoping it translates to something but I’m trying to be realistic.

  55. Anon for this*

    I’m currently involved in the hiring process for another department that I work with closely, although I am not part of the department myself. I want whoever is hired for this position to be good, because I have to work with whoever is hired.

    On the other hand, the actual hiring manager, who would be this person’s boss, is…not someone I’d want as my boss, for various reasons.

    What would you do in this situation? I don’t want to lie to candidates. I’ve been hired under false pretenses before and I was pretty upset at how the people interviewing me flat out lied to me (because they were told to sell me hard on the job). On the other hand, I don’t want to cast aspersions on this person because it’s unprofessional and might get back to the team if the candidate gives feedback to the recruiter.

    Basically, I’m trying to figure out how to hint to smart candidates that they should ask a lot of questions to figure out whether they can work well with this boss.

    1. Jules the First*

      When I’m in that situation, I like to ask questions as the interviewer about the kinds of things they are looking for from their next manager, what their ambitions are for their next role, what they know about us as a working environment, or, better yet, to pick one negative aspect of that boss and ask how the candidate would handle it (you may need to mull over the right wording to avoid tipping off the nightmare boss if you’re in the same room, but it can be done)…it’s been my experience that smart candidates will usually take that as a hint that they should dig into this stuff deeper.

    2. Mints*

      I think you can ask questions about “How do you deal with people who are abrasive / give unclear directions / move goal posts / whatever” even if that gets around, you can say it’s a useful skill for anyone.

      Also I think you can say the diplomatic version of “People who excel here can work with terrible bosses” like “People who do well here have learned how to be flexible when the project parameters change constantly”

  56. SophieChotek*

    Random comment:
    I just discovered my library subscribes to Lynda!
    Yay — hope I can learn some extra skills from the program.
    Thanks to those who have mentioned and recommended it to me.
    (Now I just need to find time…)

    2. Emily*

      Lynda is awesome! When I was a student, my university offered access for all students and I took several very good courses.

      I’ll recommend a few that I got a lot out of:
      “Negotiation Fundamentals” -Lisa Gates
      “Managing Your Time” (super helpful!) -Todd Dewett
      “Managing Stress” -Todd Dewett

      And there are lots of good software courses. I particularly enjoyed one on Excel.

  57. Whats In A Name*

    Well last Saturday I posted all excited that I found a full-time position near me that combined by background with my consulting work and after 3 years was thinking of entering the workforce. I submitted an application – the salary range not listed, but I was interested enough to put my hat in the ring and hope for at least a conversation.

    I am now in a huge pickle. Because they contacted the company I was currently under contract with and it’s all my fault. And I didn’t tell them I was debating going back to FT work because, well, I’m not even sure myself I am.

    The online application wouldn’t let me proceed without giving 3 references (name and email), which isn’t all that unusual.

    What I did not expect, though, was for them to email each reference with an automated email asking for a letter of recommendation. The references got it Saturday within 5 minutes of me hitting the “submit” button. One of my references listed was the current liaison at the company I work with now.

    I did not tell any of my references I’d be using them (usually wait until I get an interview to go that far) and I used my the person I report to at the company as a reference. I did hit the “don’t contact current employer” box but she got an automated email anyways. I never imagined they would contact references 1st and with the specific work I do I don’t have many current references that can actually evaluate my work product as I am one of a 2-person department.

    So anyways, Monday she calls me in and told me she would have appreciated a heads up that I was planning to leave. They had planned to renew my full time contract at the end of this one. She said they still will, but need to know if I am truly thinking of returning to the workforce so they know if they need to make other plans or look for another way to complete the projects I am working on.

    I still have not actually heard from the company I applied for.

    Even though she said they will still renew contract as it’s in the budget, what if they have a big loss of confidence and I don’t get it? My questions/concerns are 2-fold –
    1) are more employers starting to contact references before contacting/reviewing applications and resumes?
    2) can I come back from it and stay employed or should I start looking for more clients?!?!

    1. Anxa*

      1) I don’t know, but I do know that’s happened to me enough that I just assume that my references (or even the contacts listed on the employment section) will hear from the company before I do. In fact, I don’t know if its just dumb luck or having lived in a place with two giant employers (hospital, university) for nearly all of the non-retail/farming/food service work, but I just didn’t believe that some applicants could go through the job search with the confidence that companies would talk to them before reaching out to their references.

    2. Bess*

      That’s icky, and kinda aggressive. Maybe some issue with the build of the software? Or with the person making decisions about how the software was implemented?

  58. super anon*

    has anyone done life coaching and/or is a life coach? it’s something i’m interested in doing and my employer has a program to train coaches and get you certified, but i’ve never done it and wanted to get some insights from people who have. anything you have to share will be appreciated. thanks open thread in advance!

    1. Fictional Butt*

      I think there was a discussion about life coaching on last weekend’s non-work open thread, so you might want to take a look at that.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think you can find out about the difference between a quality life coach and a not so hot life coach by googling “how to pick a life coach” or similar thing.
      One thing that is important is a positive attitude. When people come to you they may really be struggling, your outlook will matter.

  59. DaLizzy*

    My company receives documentation from all over the world and so we have a translation vendor we use.

    As we look to build relationships with some of the organizations we work with the most we have been hiring more and more employees with language skills.

    But now there is talk that current employees who speak a second language should be tested and also do some of the work to translate and communicate in their second language. I am one such employee but while I help when needed (we now have an employee that was hired who speaks the language I speak) I’m not interested in being tested and doing this work on a regular basis, especially if I’m not being paid any more while the company would certainly save money by using our vendor less. The management team are making all kinds of plans and assuming everyone (non-exempt employees only it seems) will do this work, no one has been approached. One person mentioned to me in passing that I should be tested and when I simply said I want hired to do that work she said ‘well anyone who doesn’t test well could always get on the phone’…

    Even those hired to do the work are finding it’s becoming a large part of they role, much larger than originally expected (they are not translators but understood they would use their skills along with doing other work).

    Can I say no? Would that put me in a bad light? I feel like I have no choice (and even if they did pay me more, which is doubtful, it’s the work I’m not interested in).

    Thanks,

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      As someone who did translation work for over a decade, I’d say that you’re totally within your rights to say no, especially because it sounds like they’re being cheap and don’t want to pay the premium for rush translations. There’s also a legal element to translations, too: some jurisdictions don’t consider certain types of translations, like contracts, to be legally binding if they’re not done by a professional translator. Even at the Ministry of Teapots, where we are expected to have a certain level of English and French for professional circumstances, we still have a translation division where all official documentation has to be sent to be translated. And my managers are both fluently bilingual and have degrees in communications! (And if they’re thinking that you could just proofread documents that have been run through Google Translate, they deserve their own levels of administrative Dantesque hell.)

      1. DaLizzy*

        Yes the idea that Google translate can translate accurately is really uniformed!

        I believe what they want to do is use the translators for certifications which we cannot do but other more mundane communications they’d like to have someone in house handle, such as email and such. And I understand that but to assume you’ll make employees responsible to take on this kind of time consuming work without discussion or complete skills seems inappropriate. As I said even those hired with skills are grumbling that the translating is becoming their whole job not just a portion of their work. And we are seeing them attempt to hire people with languages we don’t even have a major need for (like Farsi).

        Thanks for your comment. Once they decide to actually speak to people I’ll say I’m not interested. There was a chart on a counter with people’s names on it, mine included, to show how we will expand our language skills in the department. Be good to maybe communicate before they change people’s job descriptions and make what looks like concrete plans.

        1. Observer*

          It’s worth pointing out to them that translating is not just a matter of knowing the languages. It really could cost them more to have internal bi-lingual staff do this than paying the translators.

    2. Thlayli*

      I know people who speak two languages fluently (i.e. Raised in a bilingual household and spoke both from birth) and failed tests to work as translators. It’s a LOT more complex than simply speaking two languages.

    3. Observer*

      Keep in mind that if you are non-exempt you are not going to be doing more work for the same pay, unless you have free time now. Because your company has to pay you for ALL hours worked.

      That doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea. And I do think that if this is very different from what you were hired to do you could push back a bit, if you are dealing with a reasonable boss. But it could make you look like a non-team player, unless you could provide a good rationale for why the organization might not benefit as much as they think.

    4. Mints*

      I’d do the test because I think it’s useful generally, but this mostly becomes a workload question, and it 100% depends on how reasonable your manager is. If you say you prefer doing the non-translation work, will she be receptive?

  60. Anon for this*

    I’m writing a CV for an academic position. I’ve got a bachelor’s degree, a master’s degree, and am working (slowly) towards a graduate certificate. I’m torn between putting the certificate towards the top of my CV, with my other degrees, or halfway down the second page, with continuing education/professional development.

    Thoughts?

    1. Whats In A Name*

      I would say the certificate belongs with professional development since it is not a stand alone degree, but that is just me. I worked in academia but in administration; other departments may see this differently.

  61. Anonish this time 867-5309*

    Yesterday I got fired for the first time in my life, and I don’t know how to move forward.

    I started about six months ago with an accounting firm. But I realized fairly soon that the field is a terrible fit for me – it’s 95% project oriented, for external clients, and maybe 5% internal process-oriented. I do much better with internal, process-oriented work. I wasn’t able to use most of my strengths in the way that I enjoy and find fulfilling – and so I’ve been completely miserable for the past few months, dreading each and every single day.

    So when one of the department chairs asked me for a meeting and basically said they thought it wasn’t working out and that they were letting me go – I wasn’t surprised, and I was even a little relieved at first.

    But now, looking back, I’m a little surprised that they didn’t try to do any sort of performance management, first. There was no PIP, no warnings that my job was in jeopardy, and even when the department chair was firing me, there wasn’t any specific explanation as to why they came to the decision (and I didn’t think to ask, at the time). Does this seem unusual to anyone else, particularly anyone in the same field?

    Now, to my main questions:

    How much of a black mark is this? How should I approach it, particularly when I’m applying to jobs?

    I think that I could probably talk somewhat confidently about it in interviews, about how I hadn’t realized the field was going to be such a poor fit for myself, and how I’ve learned a great deal about myself and the environments in which I can be successful. (This sounds okay, right? Generally speaking?)

    But does this mean getting to the interview stage is going to be harder? In terms of word choice, what do people typically put on an application, under “reason for leaving” when they were fired? E.g., “Terminated” vs. “fired” – or are there any other appropriate words to use? Any tips for how to navigate the application stage of job-searching would be appreciated.

    1. ann perkins*

      I was fired four years ago without an explanation or a PIP. So I can sympathize. I think I put something like employment separation or some such on job applications. It honestly wasn’t hard to get interviews. I tried to spin it that the product I was supporting was going away so it was time for me to move on – which was true, but sounds better than, “I was unceremoniously fired by those jerk stores.” There is nothing wrong with saying the job was a poor fit – that definitely happens and if you can recognize that and know what to look for moving forward, you shouldn’t have an issue. Good luck!

    2. Jules the First*

      It shouldn’t be an issue (one of my friends has been fired three times in the last year and is just a couple of weeks into job number 4). You can avoid using the ‘f-word’ by explaining that you left that job because you were not a good fit with the role, and then talk briefly about how you’ll avoid making that mistake again.

    3. Pwyll*

      I think the first question is what the former employer is going to say. Will they say nothing at all except that you’re not eligible for rehire? Will they say you were fired for cause? Are they willing to say that it just wasn’t the right fit at this time? If you’re still communicating with the employer for some reason, it would be helpful to know how they would phrase it so you can attempt to be consistent.

      I honestly never fill out the lines that say “Reason for leaving?” next to each job except for government job applications, and I’ve never been called out on it. Obviously you’ll want to answer truthfully in the “Have you ever been terminated” section. But these things happen, and so long as you can present in the interview that you’ve learned something from the experience, it wouldn’t be a huge red flag (unless you apply to a similar position or something).

    4. PipSqueak*

      6 months is usually considered within the probationary period, so no PIP would be necessary. PIPs are used after the training / probationary period has ended and the employee could be expected to perform adequately. In the probationary period you can usually be let go without any PIP since the whole probationary period is a PIP of sorts.

      1. Natalie*

        Really, probationary periods and PIPs are just internal policy – you can always be let go without a PIP and lots of places don’t use them. Particularly in this case, the company may have perceived that the OP was just a poor fit, and all the PIPs in the world are not going to help with a poor fit.

  62. Savannnah*

    So I am having a work and life issue and I’m hoping for some guidance. I am currently working in a field that is not in my academic background but that I have some work experience for and that I excel in- although I would like to be working in my chosen field long term. I am also overpaid in my current field by about 30-35K. My fiance has an opportunity to make about 20K more than he is now but it would involve a cross country move and personally finding a new job on the west coast. We are in our late twenties and I’ve been working at my company since my masters so while I have a good idea of market values of jobs in my current and chosen field, I am curious if anyone has ever taking a cut this big before and recovered and what the timeline looks like- I’m sure there are lots of variables but as I’m in the nonprofit world I am thinking there may be a possibility that I never am compensated at the levels I am here again.

    1. Emily*

      I’m not sure where you mean on the west coast, but I know that in California, the cost of living is high and jobs tend to pay more. But then again, the taxes are higher also. Either way, there are lot of opportunities on the west coast, and a lot of natural beauty also.

      Personally, I would probably go for it, but I’m the adventurous type.

      BTW, I took a big pay cut once, after taking time off work, then getting back into the workforce. Within about 9 months of working again, I found another job that paid more that I had made before my time off.

        1. Zip Silver*

          Depends on where you go. If you’re moving to San Francisco, 20k might not be worth it. If you’re moving to pretty much anywhere else, then he’ll be making more money in a cheaper area. Usually a good thing. If you can’t make the same amount in California, then that’s alright, because cost of living is cheaper (except in San Francisco)

    2. Howdy Do*

      I don’t have any insight but am possibly facing a very similar situation myself! I’m just now realizing that I’m paid much more generously where we live currently than where we’re considering moving. It’d be great for my husband’s career trajectory but much dicier for mine. Let’s hope for some good advice form other folks!

  63. OlympiasEpiriot*

    I’m exhausted and have a huge to-do list. My output affects others.

    All I want to do is go into a closet for a nap. ( I was out sick on Tuesday, think I should have stayed out for the rest of the week.)

    But, I just have to suck it up.

    *argh*

  64. Me*

    It seems like a lot of commenters consider set hours a hardship. Does your job let you show up whenever you want?

    1. neverjaunty*

      “Show up whenever you want” is not the only alternative to “set hours”. Some jobs require very strict start and end times; others are more flexible, especially when the work day is longer than eight hours.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        This. There are days I’m out of the office running around all days, and days i’m here very late with meetings. I’m expected to manage my own schedule.

        Some times that means coming in an hour late if I had a dinner meeting. Sometimes it means leaving 15 minutes early to go to a yoga class I had to miss the day before because of work I needed to get done.

        Many previous jobs would expect me and my team to readily work late (sometimes very late!) and still be in at 8am the next morning. Set hours are great, but so is some flexibility to manage your own schedule, if the position permits it.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        +1

        My line of work FREQUENTLY requires staying well after 5 PM. So I don’t want to hear people get cranky about when I show up to work, as long as I’m not missing meetings or failing to get my work done on time.

      3. Anonymous Educator*

        When I first started my job, it was oddly classified as non-exempt, which meant my hours were strict… and that was annoying. Yes, technically, it meant I could earn overtime pay, but it also meant if I had to leave early ever then I would have to re-arrange to come in early or stay late another day… and in California overtime is calculated by the day, not the week. Likewise, if I wanted to stay late, I’d have to ask if it was okay to do, since it would qualify as overtime. It was just a pain to deal with… filling out timesheets.

        Eventually, my boss was able to get me reclassified as exempt, and it has been so much better. I still have set hours, which I generally adhere to, but I can leave early or stay late as needed—just do what makes sense, based on the work.

      1. Howdy Do*

        Exactly, that’s the kind of flexibility I like (and currently have.) Basically, being trusted to get your 8 hours and not having someone monitor your comings and goings feels like I’m being treated as an adult professional (but of course it all depends on the kind of work and if this kind of flexibility causes someone else a hardship, then it wouldn’t work.)

    3. Manders*

      I think it was the exact start time with no leeway whatsoever that set a lot of people off in yesterday’s thread. Punishing professional non-client-facing workers for coming in 5 minutes late is a pretty extreme thing to do.

      Also, I’ve found that 9 am tends to be the hardest start time to get perfectly right every time when you’re commuting in a big city. That’s just about the peak of rush hour, when the maximum number of people are trying to get to the city center. In my city, it’s usually assumed that you can negotiate a start time anywhere between 7:30 am and 9:30 am with your manager, and then lateness isn’t a problem so long as you hit the start time you agreed on.

    4. T3k*

      My past jobs were all pretty set on hours, but then again they were very small businesses (each one had about 6 employees) so even if one person wasn’t there on time, it was felt by the rest. That said, one job I pushed back my time as I tended to show up 15 mins. early on a regular basis (contingency in case of an accident on the road), and as I couldn’t do overtime, I was allowed to leave 15 mins. earlier those days.

    5. Jessie the First (or second)*

      It’s not “have set hours” versus “show up whenever you feel like it” I don’t think. It is rigidity that’s the hardship, for me anyway – and a boss complaining about a few minutes here or there would seem like petty beancounting, frankly (but I am in a job where there is not a coverage issue).

      If I had a job that mandated I be in my seat by 9 am on the nose, where coming in at 9:05 or 9:10 would be considered late and a problem – that’d be a hardship (because of complicated reasons, not because I’m lolling around in bed too long in the mornings). My job assumes I will be present during the workday and getting my work done, but whether I arrive at 9 or 9:30 is not relevant to anyone at my office. And I need that kind of flexibility to balance things going on at home.

    6. overeducated*

      My job is flexible but not “come in whenever you want.” People come in between 6:30 and 9 AM, but most people are here before 8, work the same schedule every day give or take 10 minutes, and our staff meetings always start at 8:30. My boss explained the culture when I started as “unofficial core hours from 8;30 to 4.” Regularly coming in at 9:15 would probably be frowned upon because we are expected to work a full 8 hours each day and it’s a ghost town at 5. You can have a flexible culture but not have it be acceptable to waltz in whenever.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The issue yesterday was (I think) with not even letting people be five minutes late. There’s a difference between “it’s not a huge deal in many professional jobs to walk in at 9:05 rather than 9:00” and “jobs should let us show up whenever we want.”

    8. LadyKelvin*

      Our core hours are 9-3, and our building is open from 6-6 so we can basically set whatever hours we want. We are somewhat expected to keep consistent hours so that people can find us, but we have whiteboards on our office/cubical doors to let people know if we are traveling or on a different schedule. I work 6:30-3 most days but on Wednesday I had a super awful night of sleep, so I worked 7:30-4 instead. No one really cares as long as you get your work done.

      1. Celeste*

        I think this is really the best situation. It seems like the cost of time for tracking and dealing with infractions isn’t a good use of resources. It has its own optics of not trusting people to get their work done, and being unwilling to deal with a lone offender if that does happen.

        This reminds me, I haven’t bought my lottery ticket yet this week.

    9. Pwyll*

      I actually do consider set hours to be a hardship for me personally. But that’s why I specifically apply to positions where this won’t be an issue. I’m the worst morning person in the entire world, and I struggle getting into work for 8 AM every day. My boss and I have agreed that I can pretty much arrive whenever I want unless there’s a meeting I need to attend. But I’m in a role that requires working late and weekends and pretty much any time we’re on deadline, so it all balances out as long as the work is getting done.

      I feel for folks who can’t have that flexibility in their roles, though. When I had jobs that actually required punching in, I was miserable.

    10. Ramona Flowers*

      I work a 35-hour week for a full-time wage (in the UK where the norm is a bit more). I can come in any time from 8-10am, leave any time from 4-6pm, can make it later or earlier if I book comp time which can be taken by the hour, and if I work over 35 hours I can work less another time or book it off as comp time.

      So yes, to an extent.

    11. krysb*

      Pretty much, unless you’re hourly production. Those employees and their supervisors have more set time, but everyone else comes in whenever and leaves whenever. We’re in a pretty flexible area, though, so a lot of work can be done from home, too. Most come into work between 9 and 10 and leave between 3 and 4. We also have unlimited vacation for salaried employees.

    12. e l a*

      We generally need to have the same hours all the time so people know when to find us, but I’ve been given a lot of flexibility about deciding what I want my start time to be, and no one makes a big deal about people being late here and there. Usually people give a head’s up in advance if they know they’re going to be late the next day for an appointment or something and it hasn’t been a problem to adjust my hours within a week (leave early one day if I stayed late the day before, stay late to make up time if a lunch went long).
      Other departments at my company have stricter coverage needs though, so their experience is probably different.

    13. Red Reader*

      Yes, pretty much. My manager likes a heads up if I’m going to be wildly off my normal schedule, but I don’t have to ask permission, just bounce her a text.

    14. Emily*

      Hm, I really like my 8-5 job. But I’m a morning person.
      (There’s no flexibility to the schedule but I like it.)

    15. Luisa*

      Nope. I have never had a job with flexible hours…but I’m a teacher, so I was never expecting one.

    16. JamieS*

      No I can’t show up whenever but I have some flexibility and got to choose my start and ending time. I don’t know if this is common in offices or not but the general rule at my job is employees have to show up no later than 9, can’t leave before 4, and must work 8 hours a day not including lunch. It’s also not a big deal if someone is late as long as they put in the full 8 hours.

    17. Jen RO*

      Sort of – the expectation in my company (software development) is that you will come to work between 9 and 10 and work 8 full hours. I usually get in the office around 9.30 and leave around 6-7. I would absolutely turn down a job that expected me to be butt-in-chair at 9 AM exactly, because in my line of work that is completely irrelevant.

    18. Annie Mouse*

      We have to be in work, ready to go, at our start time. Which ranges from 6 am through to about 8 pm depending on the shift. There’s no flexibility in start or finish times, and overtime is almost always a certainty (unless you strike it lucky!). I don’t work in an office, but I think if I was in an office, I’d much rather have flexibility with end times than start times.

    19. Windchime*

      My workplace lets us come in whenever we want, but that doesn’t mean strolling in at random hours. For instance, Tim comes in at 6:30, I come in around 7:30 and Kris comes in closer to 9. If I’m not going to be there around 7:30, I let someone know so they aren’t worrying that I’ve gotten in a bus wreck or something. And if someone has a dentist appointment and needs to arrive late (or leave early), that’s OK too. But it also means that if an urgent issue pops up, we need to be flexible enough to stay over if necessary.

      We are all exempt, if that makes a difference. I think mostly our team works a good, solid 40 hours a week and not much more.

  65. Audiophile*

    It looks like my project isn’t dead completely. I’m working on pivoting (jargony, I know) the project since the original idea isn’t going to work as we’re moving to a new system. The transition to the new system is at some as yet to be determined point in the future, nonetheless, people aren’t going to be willing to create new processes with this in the works.

  66. changeling*

    A couple years ago my work switched from sick time bank that rolled over, with an accrual up to 320 hours, to short temperature or long term disability. They were letting us continue to use the accrued sick time in addition to the disability payments, which are only 1/3 to 2/3 of our normal pay for the next 3 years then what ever was in the bank would be gone. At the end of this year is the end of that 3 years. Several coworkers are very upset that they will lose the built up sick time. It doesn’t matter that the company didn’t have to roll it over in the first place, but since they did, the fact that they are not losing it is now loss of pay or theft in their minds.
    Is their any way to help talk them down when they get into a angry rant? Or do they have a point?

    1. LCL*

      They are right and your company is being a jerk about it. In general, it is to labor and management’s advantage to allow sick leave to roll over. But your company may not be able to afford it. If you don’t want to talk about it, say so, or pick up a newspaper, or leave, or whatever.

      1. changeling*

        They changed the way they are doing sick leave. From the accrued bank to a disability system. Even employees without anything in the sick time bank get to use the short or long term disability. So new employees can get sick or pregnant and not worry about not having saved up enough sick time. But long term employees that haven’t been sick have huge amounts of time sitting there, unused and are going to lose them soon.
        I see the benefits of the new system, but, yeah I’m losing a big chunk of sick time too

    2. Amber Rose*

      Generally, the argument I’ve seen pointed out is that sick time is NOT vacation time. It’s time you can use if you have personal health issues, but it’s also time you would ideally not need to use and not something you would use to, for example, vacation in Cuba for 320 hours.

      So it’s not theft of of pay, because it’s not really a part of your benefits.

        1. changeling*

          I hit reply too soon, I did try that explanation. That it was their right to change the way they did our sick time. But since they had given us the benefit of the sick time ever, and allowed it to accrue, that it was part of our benefit, just like our retirement account to, they can’t come early and take back what was given, just change what is being given going forward, is their reasoning

          1. Amber Rose*

            Ah, I see what you’re getting at. But I mean, it would be the same if these people quit tomorrow: that time wouldn’t be paid out to them.

            It sucks and your company is being a bit jerkish about it, but I don’t think it’s a hill to die on, you know?

          2. Jessie the First (or second)*

            It’s a state law issue. In some states, you have no legal ownership of those accrued sick leave days, and the company can get rid of them if it wants to (yes, even already-banked hours). Other states would consider already-accrued sick leave as yours. I believe most states are in the first category – these states do not think of sick leave as “wages” and so therefore, companies can get rid of banked sick leave hours. That’s not entirely universal, and it is theoretically possible you are in a jurisdiction that would consider banked sick leave as yours forever once you’ve accrued the benefit, but in general the law sees a difference between banked sick leave and banked vacation.

    3. Natalie*

      Were they given sufficient warning 3 years ago that this is happening? If so, I don’t think they have a valid reason to be enraged.

      My last company changed its leave policies twice while I was there. The first time, anyone who had started under the old policy was allowed to keep everything they’d banked but future leave banks were capped. Unfortunately, they made using the banked leave really confusing, so no one ever did, and the enormous leave liability didn’t change much.

      So 5 years later, they told everyone those grandfathered in leave banks were expiring at the end of the year. Which is insane – there were people with hundreds of hours that they had earned by dint of never taking a vacation (which is it’s own separate problem) and now they were going to lose it in about six months. They had to backtrack and give people three years to use up their banked leave.

  67. Regular Lurker*

    I see a massage therapist regularly to help me with chronic back pain. I have been going to the same woman for more than 5 years. In December, she told me that she had asked for a raise and if she was turned down, she was going to go out on her own. I buy massages in packages and I was due to buy a new package. I decided to wait and see how this dynamic played out. Well, when I came in for my next massage, she told me that they had agreed to give her the raise. I then contacted the manager and purchased a new package. During our call, I told the manager that I was buying the massage package to see my specific therapist. She offered me a bigger discount if I bought a couple of more sessions. Two weeks later, the manager contacted my therapist (while she was on vacation!) and told her that they could not afford to give her the raise after all and they thought she should go ahead and go out on her own. The therapist found me through facebook to tell me that she was leaving.

    I left a message for the manager and asked for a refund of my package. She responded through the email address I use to book appointments and attached her no refund policy. I understand there is a no refund policy, but I feel like this was bait and switch, especially the part where she encouraged me to buy more massages after I told her I only see one therapist there. Anyway, I will (finally) get to the employment related issue. In her email, the manager included the following three paragraphs:

    “We understand you are upset that a Massage Therapist whom you have worked with for many years was let go, but please know that it was done in respect for our clients and team members.

    Should you like details on the reason why she was no longer a good match for what we strive to create here, we will be more than happy to go over details with you.

    Please note that we condemn bullying and/ or wish to judge others based on religious, political, and/ or personal views and will continue to do what it takes to create a positive environment where others feel welcome and respected to be themselves.”

    Does this seem inappropriate? It appears that they are saying that my therapist bullied others? What would you do with this information? Share it with the therapist? Respond back to the manager to point our her inappropriateness? Stay out of it? I have arranged to see my therapist elsewhere and am going to forfeit the money I paid for the package – I don’t want to go back there and I don’t want to send my friends or family there. I am fortunate that I can afford to lose that money. However, I don’t know how involved to get in this clearly messy employment situation. Obviously, I’ve never felt bullied by my therapist, but I am also a client, not a co-worker. Thoughts?

    1. Temperance*

      I would probably put on my local FB group that the massage place did you dirty, TBH. You were tricked into buying additional massages on a false pretense. I’m vindictive, though, so YMMV.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I’d definitely Yelp is up, but my metro area seems big on Yelp/Google reviews. And then I’d do a huge push for your specific therapist and mention how much you enjoy her specific services and you can find her at XYZ. Those business practices are certainly questionable, and I’d certainly look into whether it’s something BBB could do something about.

        1. Mints*

          Yep, bad reviews plus good reviews everywhere: Yelp, Google Maps, Facebook. That’s so shady

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I would leave a Yelp review, personally. Others should know that the business has unprofessional practices. Sheesh!

    3. Pwyll*

      That seems an odd response, and it’d make me wonder if there’s more to the story on either end. Without speculating, I’d want to be sure you trust the therapist more than the business in case she actually did do something wrong/illegal. But assuming you trust her: are massage therapists licensed in your state? In many states, licensed businesses cannot engage in fraudulent or deceptive business practices, no matter what their refund policy states. You may want to contact the licensing board to file a complaint.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        Even if the therapist did do something that warranted her firing and lied to OP, the manager still sold OP additional sessions under that pretext. That’s a risk when you use staff members as leverage to make a sale. Agree on the licensing board suggestion!

    4. nonegiven*

      I’d consider an intent to sue letter because they misrepresented the service in order to get you to sign up.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      What a gem this employer is. NOT.

      Tell them that you specifically asked for a certain MT. You were never told it’s not their policy to sell packages for a particular MT. You believed you were buying a package for this particular MT’s services. Tell them you will be writing the state attorney general’s office to inquire about your legal protections as a consumer.

      Then actually do this. Write your state’s AG. BE SURE to include a copy of the email they sent you. Settle back and wait for the reply.

      If this does not work, then consider breaking up the group of visits and giving a visit to friends and family for Christmas/birthday/no reason at all.

    6. Gaia*

      I had a similar issue with a chiropractor. I knew there was issues at the clinic (it was obvious and the owner often made really inappropriate comments about the staff in front of – and to – the clients). But, when she left all of her clients were told she was on “medical leave” and was coming back soon. I stayed and saw the other doctor even though he wasn’t as good because I wanted to see my doctor again and she was on leave, right? Wrong. The receptionist finally pulled me aside and said she’d never on on leave they were all just threatened with their jobs if they told any clients that she had left and established her own practice.

      I was livid. And I told everyone. Within a week their clinic was nearly empty. A year later my chiro’s new clinic is thriving and I hear the old one is still struggling and all of the original staff has moved on to other jobs. Moral of the story: don’t lie to your clients and patients and don’t mistreat your staff.

    7. Bex*

      This might be a long shot, but would a credit card chargeback work? You bought the package to see a specific therapist, and they upsold you knowing that they were letting her go.

    8. Anon attorney*

      I think it’s really inappropriate for her to share that information. If there was a disciplinary issue with the therapist, that should be kept confidential and certainly not shared with customers. The potential issue with pressing for a refund is that the owner could argue that the reason the therapist was let go arose after you had paid, and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. If you can genuinely afford to write it off, and you’re sure that you are happy to work with the therapist, I’d just move on.

  68. ann perkins*

    I posted last week about being unsure whether or not I should take a new opportunity. Well, I signed the offer letter. I had been interviewing with another company and thought they had ghosted me but a couple days ago I got a “we’ll update you soon” email. What is the most polite way to respond and withdraw my candidacy? It has nothing to do with my interest, it was just taking too long and I think the new position I accepted is a better fit for me. thanks in advance!

    1. tw*

      I had this happen. I believe I just sent an email to the recruiter that I was working with the most saying something like I just signed a job offer and will no longer be available for an interview/don’t want to waste their time. Most of our communication had been over email at that point anyway. It was well received since they were free to focus on other candidates

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yep, just say, “thank you so much for your continued consideration of my candidacy. At this time, I have accepted another offer and will need to withdraw my application from consideration.”

  69. sadjob*

    Happy Friday, AAM readers. Can someone chime in and help me make sense of what happened in this interview process?

    TLDR: Insider info says the firm I’ve been interviewing with thinks I’m the most qualified candidate with the best fit, except they’re leaning heavily toward a candidate who is significantly younger because he is someone they have worked with in a limited capacity and is a known quantity, whereas I’m an outsider who they only know through interviewing. How does one recover from that?

    Background: I’m about four years in to a career in a niche sub field of finance. The industry is small and informal, and is made up of mostly small boutique firms that don’t often hire, and if they do, don’t hire from traditional channels. I’ve been interviewing with one of the most well known boutique firms in the field for the past two months. It’s been a fairly involved process– phone screen, really long take-home assignment, four different days of interviews with each of the partners, spread over the last two months.

    I know the job isn’t mine until I’m actually at my desk on the first day, but I had a great rapport with every single interviewer and knew I was knocking it out of the park. Then, they went quiet on me over the last four weeks. I pressed the hiring manager for information, and he told me that it’s down to two final candidates, me and a student who is about to graduate undergrad from a local university where the founders of the firm teach a yearly class. Last year this person was a teaching assistant for the firms’ founders’ class, so they feel like they know him pretty well. As a result, they feel really comfortable with him and are leaning heavily toward making him an offer, instead of going with me, a complete stranger who they’ve only gotten to know through interviewing and glowing recommendations from their network. The hiring manager told me every one who interviewed me thought I was incredibly strong and was the top candidate, but they’d prefer to go with someone who they have worked with (albeit in a limited capacity) instead of testing me out and risking that it won’t go well– all of this for a JUNIOR position.

    It feels like a gut punch– I can sort of understand why they would want to stick with someone they know, but why would they put me through the arduous interview process and then tell me that I’m hands down the best candidate, only to go with someone younger and acknowledged as less experienced? They havent reached out and told me “no” formally yet. My advisors who know this firm well are telling me to go on the charm offensive and have people who know both me and the firm well, as well as others who have glowing recommendations to share, send unsolicited letters of support encouraging the founders of the firm to take a chance on me. I’ve also sent an email reiterating my interest in the firm and outlining some additional ideas for what else I could bring to the table and expand on the role. So far, no response.

    Can anyone weigh in on what they think could have happened/help me reason through this decision? I just dont understand it at all.

    1. Graciosa*

      Don’t do the charm offensive.

      You may not get this job. You may not agree with the reasons for that decision. It happens.

      People lose out on jobs because they wore a jacket that an interviewer disliked or used a mannerism that reminded someone of a former employee who was a disaster or mentioned a city of which someone had a bad opinion. You generally never find this out. It may not be “fair” but interviewing and hiring don’t have to be “fair.” All they have to do is avoid violating any applicable non-discrimination laws.

      Your job right now is to show that you’re professional no matter what. Maybe they hire you, maybe they hire him now and call you for their next opening – but you put any positive outcome at risk if you show that you don’t understand the professional norms of hiring.

      That’s why you need to stop now and wait for their next move. No “charm offensives” or desperate emails or begging phone calls. If they send you a rejection, you send a polite note thanking them for letting you know and reiterating your interest in any future openings that arise for which you are qualified. That’s it.

      Mentally move on. I know that’s not what you wanted to hear, but it’s the best advice I can give you. Accepting that this is how it works sometimes will save you a lot of heartbreak, angst, and mistakes in the future.

      Best wishes –

    2. Sally*

      This sucks, I’m sorry. I’m watching a similar situation unfold from the inside and it’s a bit weird to me, too, and I’m disappointed that we may not bring on the stronger candidate, who I’d be excited to work with.

      Idk if this is the kind of thing that a charm offensive can change, though. It sounds like they’re already on the way to a decision.

      1. sadjob*

        Thank you for sharing your story. It’s bewildering but also good to know that this isn’t a one-time occurrence.

        I’m not sure the charm offensive will work either. I had one close contact who is a big name in the industry reach out on my behalf, but I’m stopping it there. Time to move on.

        1. Bess*

          Sure. And the “known quantity” is a pretty big thing, even for a person who’s not as seasoned. And who knows–maybe a more senior person isn’t the best fit for the job–are they looking for someone they can mentor/teach a bit more? You never know.

  70. KR*

    Dear AAM, manager let me bring my dog to work and it went super well. It’s been a crazy week though. I locked myself out of the office with my ID and my dog inside the office last night. So I had to get a locksmith to drill out and replace on of our locks. Even if my dog wasn’t in the office, I didn’t have my ID or phone which meant I couldn’t get on the military base I live on, or call coworkers to see when they’d be back from travel and get them to come unlock the door. It was super stressful. I felt like an idiot but now we have a key for one of our locks we didn’t have before in case this happens again so there’s that. But having my dog in the office has been such a morale booster. He’s so cute and is such great company to me.

  71. katie*

    Have any of you left a job you mostly like because it’s in a boring suburb complex? I live right outside a major city and am a mid-30s single woman. For the past 2 years, I’ve been commuting into the burbs to a small office in a fairly desolate office building. No cafeteria, our office is 20 people, mostly older men. No one socializes with each other, everyone keeps to themselves. I feel really alone and cut off. New job is pretty much the same work but better benefits, more money and in the middle of the city. I hope doing the move will make me feel less alone, more connected with people. A lot of my friends work in the city, I could meet them for lunch, or hopefully meet other people my age. But I like my current job and I worry I’m giving up a great place to work just to be in the city. Has anyone done this? Thanks!

    1. Sally*

      Stuff like that makes a huge difference. It’s not without risk, but given this high-level look I’d be pretty motivated to make that move.

      You could also ask yourself–if the job ends up, say, being worse in this or that, would it still be worth it to make the move for the trade-off? Sounds like that’s where you’re leaning, but you could run through those scenarios to get a bit more certainty.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you live in the city and commute to the suburbs just for work? Or maybe that’s what you’re doing already? If so, maybe you can meet your friends for dinner after work?

      1. katie*

        I already live in the city. And it’s more than just wanting to hang out with my friends. I spend a minimum of 40 hours a week with a group of people I don’t relate to or really like. When you are having a rough day, a 10 minute conversation with a friend can make things a lot easier. I don’t have that here. I can go an entire week with only discussing work topics with people.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          In that case, I would definitely look for another job. Some of that may be related to urban / suburban, but it may just be that that particular workplace just isn’t a good fit for you.

    3. Pwyll*

      I left a job that was a bad fit for a number of reasons even though I actually enjoyed the work, but this was one of the reasons. It was an hour commute to a remote rural area when I lived in the city limits of a major metro. I didn’t know anyone up there, and my coworkers were nice but didn’t really socialize other than in the hallways. I can’t even describe how much happier I’ve been since working downtown again. It’s just the little things: I can grab a sandwich without driving 15 minutes, I bump into people I know randomly on the street and get to catch up, I can step out for lunch with friends without it being a logistical nightmare.

      Non-work related considerations can sometimes be just as important as the work itself.

  72. Anon16*

    This is such a nitpick, but I’m writing a thank you letter to a woman I had an informational interview with who raised to vice president of global marketing less than 10 years after graduating college (and didn’t even have a Bachelor’s in marketing). Is it condescending to write that I was impressed with that? I don’t even know, I’m so blown away by her that I was intimidated to even talk to her.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Don’t say that you’re impressed that she advanced so quickly without a degree. Just say you’re impressed with her accomplishments and appreciative that she took time to do an informational interview with her.

    2. Karenina*

      I don’t think it will come across as condescending if phrased correctly. I might use the word ‘admire’ instead of ‘impressed’ (ie, “I really admire what you’ve achieved in your career in just ten years”.

  73. oranges & lemons*

    I have an interview coming up and I’m waffling about what range to name for salary. From what I can tell, the average for this type of role is around 33-35K, but I have more experience than probably most people coming into this type of role. I make 40K now and would be moving to a more expensive area so I’d really rather say 35-40K, but I feel like 30-40 would be safer. I know it seems a bit silly to agonize over the difference of a couple thousand, but it would be significant to me. What does everyone think? The field is book publishing, for what it’s worth.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would probably ask for 42K. That isn’t unreasonable to ask for. That doesn’t mean you’ll get 42K. You say you have more experience than people would typically have for that role, so they may see that and change the parameters of the position to be more in line with your salary expectations… or they may not. But 42K would not be something they could reasonably balk at.

    2. Lauren*

      Which is why you should say, 45-50k, so that you get 45k. Don’t move on without a bump or at least a better title that shows you are moving up. It helps for future salaries even if you don’t get more money now.

      Experience means that you are worth more. It doesn’t hurt to ask. What happens if you say 30 -40k, and they offer you 30k? Would you really leave for 10k less? If a couple thousand, would be significant to you, don’t go lower that your current salary.

      Put it on them, “I’d like to get a sense of salary, as you know these roles in publishing can be as little as minimum wage to well over 70k in some instances. I’m not entry-level, and I just want to confirm that we are on the same page for compensation. Can you tell me your range?”

      I’ve had people say ‘well tell us what you are looking for?’. I’ve literally pushed back with ‘I asked you first’ and a laugh. Sometimes they tell you.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        What happens if you say 30 -40k, and they offer you 30k?

        Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t give such a broad range. I’d give a number and have it be slightly more than you actually want or expect.

    3. oranges & lemons*

      Thanks everyone! I guess my concern is that, as this position would be a step down in title (but at a bigger company, which is why it’s worth it to me), I don’t want to give them the impression that I don’t recognize and accept that. Maybe I didn’t make that clear in my initial post!

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        But you’re just saying what you’re asking for, not demanding it or saying you would necessarily refuse an offer lower than that.

      2. neverjaunty*

        But it’s a bigger company and the cost of living in the area is higher. You don’t need to ask for less money to humble yourself.

    4. Thlayli*

      Would you still take the job at 33k? I think you need to figure out what you would actually accept before you go into the negotiation. But yeah they will expect you to ask for a higher amount to begin with and work down. If you would accept 33, you know 33-35 is normal, you think 40 is reasonable for your experience, but you really want 45 then say 35-45.

  74. Ask a Manager* Post author

    It’s wedding season. If you have questions that involve both work and weddings, I’d love to have them for a wedding round-up I’m working on. You can post them here or email them to me privately (alison@askamanager.org).

    2. Gandalf the Nude*

      I will ask my friend who wanted to list her extensive MOH experience on her resume to write in.

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          I’ll try to get her to do a full letter on it, but basically she’s been Maid of Honor like 5 times and always goes full on 27 Dresses about it. She’s looking for admin and executive assistant-type jobs and thinks the MOH-ing is relevant enough she should be able to list it. I told her “no” (well, actually I told her “nooooooo”), but she seemed unconvinced, though that could have been the wine.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            OMG, I really, really want this letter. It doesn’t have to be from her! You can write it as the concerned (baffled?) friend. You will make my whole month.

            1. Gandalf the Nude*

              You have had a very long month. So, someway, somehow, you will get this letter.

          2. Ramona Flowers*

            Oh dear. I was hoping you’d at least say she worked in the wedding industry!

    3. Awkward Interviewee*

      Something about bridal shower etiquette at work could be interesting. For example: I’m getting married this summer. No one from my work is invited to the wedding, partially because I’ve been at this job for less than a year so I didn’t know anyone well when the guest list was solidified, and we’re trying to keep the wedding not-huge. My boss asked if I wanted a work shower. I said no, I didn’t want a gifts shower type shower. (Fiance and I already have a lot of stuff – it was hard enough to find enough things to register for for our wedding guests, plus I’ve read that people who aren’t invited to the wedding shouldn’t be invited to showers.) But I said that I would be up for a low key have cupcakes and hang out thing. I mean, who doesn’t like an excuse to have a cupcake instead of doing work? Did I do the right thing?

    4. Red Reader*

      I’m getting married this September, but have nothing to add, because my wedding is across the country and all my coworkers have been the perfect level of vaguely-curious without anybody making a big fuss or wanting to be invited. (I think they’re more excited about my Disney honeymoon, actually.) But definitely curious to read the round-up, especially the MOH-on-resumes story!!

    5. mreasy*

      I got married almost exactly a year ago. We didn’t really do presents, because we had a lowkey wedding and I have major guilt issues about gifts and people feeling obligated. However, my bosses, who don’t live nearby and did not attend, said they’d like to get us a wedding gift and asked what we’d like. I tried to demur but they (kindly, gently) insisted. I tried to think of something, but couldn’t wrap my head around what the price range should be, and really couldn’t think of anything we needed or wanted that made sense as a gift. So the couple of times they followed up, I told them I’d let them know, but never did. Now the topic has been dropped, thankfully, and I hope for good. Could I have handled it differently? My company culture is very liberal & creative, and my bosses and I are quite close in some ways.

  75. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    How do you deal politely with a smoker who works near you? I am in an open office, and a coworker who sits close to me (most work is done at long tables), smokes. It’s outside and in the allowed areas, but my asthma means any secondhand smoke on clothes or whatever can range from “this is smelly” to potentially causing me to have to lose work time trying to breathe.

    It’s too warm now for him to be wearing an outer jacket that he can take off on coming in, and making someone change every time they go to smoke isn’t reasonable.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I’m allergic to tobacco so I feel your pain. Request a change of location for medical reasons. I ended up in a back corner of my office away from the smokers which really helped me.

    3. Thlayli*

      Ask to be moved to a different area. This seems like a reasonable request for accommodation given you have a diagnosed condition.

    4. Windchime*

      I hate this. I had to move from my comfortable seat on the bus to a bench under the AC blowers because the guy who sat next to me reeked of smoke.

  76. TwoUnemployedVeterans*

    HAhaha. My husband was laid off 2 weeks ago, just as he started receiving ‘Congrats on your 5th anniversary with Teapot International’ certificates and plaques. With this we received a ‘pick your own gift’ catalogue and I chose a Dirty Devil hard floor sweeper.

    The vacuum arrived today – THE SAME DAY my husband received a super job offer (and now we’re going to have to move.. after saying we’d never do it again. This will be our 5th move in 12 years)

    Turns out the Dirt Devil works well, but not so much on the corners and fine dirt.

  77. Piano Girl*

    I was laid off two months ago with a pretty good severance package of six months’ pay. I have enjoyed my time off, but am thinking that I might want to return to the workforce in the fall. The problem is, we are highly likely to move in about a year, and I’m not sure if it would be fair for me to apply for full-time positions knowing that. What do you think? Is there a minimum amount of time you should be able to commit to when you are hired? Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      It depends on the field and type of work. Retail or low-level admin, I think a year would be okay. If you do something strategic and high-level, then a year might not be so great.

      If short-term contract jobs are a thing in your field/area, then that might not be a bad thing to look into, either covering someone out on maternity leave or just working on a project that would take a few months.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think this is really job dependent, but my rule of thumb is that you own full-time jobs a year. Now, if you are certain you are going to move that is one thing, but if it is more like, “Well.. Maybe we’ll move… Or maybe we’ll stay Or maybe we’ll..” then I would move on with your life as though the move wasn’t going to happen.

      After all, nothing it set in stone until it happens.

    3. Anon today*

      I am an accountant, but not a CPA. My husband will likely be retiring in a year (he’s a teacher) and we plan to move then.
      At this point, I think I will probably end up temping or look for a short-term job, rather than applying for anything more permanent. Thanks for your thoughts!

    4. Natalie*

      For my money, nothing’s settled until it’s settled. So if I were in your position I would look for a regular job unless I had a firm move date, a house in the new area, etc. A lot can change in a year.

    5. Sam Foster*

      Apply for work that you want to do based on the known facts of today. As others have pointed out, a lot can change in a year.

  78. Persephone Mulberry*

    I’m looking for some career direction! In my 15+ years of office jobs, I’ve discovered I’m really good at training on policies and processes. I really love talking to people about why they operate the way they do and helping them develop or refine their processes. I’m VERY good at bringing order to chaos. I like I enjoy business writing and editing and I think I’d be good at proposals and grants, but I don’t have any direct experience in those areas. So what types of jobs should I be looking for? I am NOT interested in self-employment.

    1. Rincat*

      This kind of sounds like a Business Analyst type position, but BAs please correct me if I’m wrong. From what I know, they help organizations analyze their current policies/processes, develop new ones, and train and implement. That might be worth looking into.

      However read the job descriptions carefully because some companies use that title for Business Intelligence Analyst, Business Analytics Analyst, etc etc – very IT focused things that do programming, system/server admin, etc.

    3. N.J.*

      In the field I currently work in, this sort of process improvement focused activity is folded under the term operational excellence. So suggestions for job searching terms would be process improvement, process auditor, operational excellence or even specific methodologies of process improvement (such as Lean or six sigma).

  79. jasmine*

    I have been working overseas since I graduated from university and am now finally thinking of relocating back to my home country. Does anyone have advice for jobhunting in this kind of situation? What is particularly bothering me is that I don’t have any references who could provide a reference in English, and on top of this, references aren’t part of the hiring culture here so I’m not sure that my past managers would be sure about what what kind of thing is appropriate to say. (I’ve asked around a little bit and the general consensus is that it would seem like a sigificant favour rather than just standard protocol.)
    It’s quite likely I will begin my search after moving back so geography won’t be a problem, but how should I deal with the reference situation?

    1. katamia*

      Maybe try asking for a single reference letter and provide examples of what one looks like as a template instead of making them answer the phone/a bunch of emails every single time. Then keep these letters, explain your situation either at the interview or after, and provide hiring managers with a copy. It would probably feel like less of an imposition since it’s a one-time thing rather than something that they have to keep doing.

    2. Candy*

      I sort of feel like this is your prospective employer’s problem, not yours. I would just list your references as normal, and leave it up to them to decide if they want to make the overseas call. At the most, I might mention that when checking references they’re likely to be speaking to someone who isn’t a native English speaker (but if you have “Fluent in Japanese” and past jobs located in Tokyo on your resume, they’re sure to figure that out on their own).

  80. Jimbo*

    Long story short, inadequate/bad planning and configuration of our project makes it unsustainable over the long term. I’ve said this to my bosses. I’ve presented my case in powerpoint and memos. The current model persists and for the foreseeable future, we are keeping the current configuration.

    Should I be open to my bosses that this is driving me to consider opportunities elsewhere? Or best to just quietly job hunt and resign when an offer comes my way?

    1. neverjaunty*

      Quietly job hunt and leave. If they aren’t going to listen to you because you’re right, threats are not going to make them more rational, and will just make you look like this is personal for you and not about the project.

      1. Jimbo*

        Thank you! This is especially painful for me because I’ve only been on the job for nine months. But being the only staffer devoted 100 percent to the project with everyone else at 5 and 10 percent I see nothing but one mini crisis after another long term with me being expected to fix them

  81. Hrovitnir*

    This is pretty much just a whine. I’m applying for a job somewhere that was bought out by a large US firm a few years ago (my partner’s sister actually used to work there and apparently people were really unhappy with the culture change – but this is fixed term and low level so I’m not terribly concerned. I don’t mind being a cog.)

    The problem is they use an online application form that they haven’t bothered to change at all for countries outside the US – and they ask for your previous salaries. -_- Now, they’re optional fields with bold, highlighted lines about people from California not filling them in, but ew. It may be becoming a thing in NZ, I don’t know, but if I didn’t read AAM I would have been completely blindsided by a potential employer asking this!

    So this implies to me that if I get an interview it will be “tell us your biggest weakness” and the whole nine yards. I really need to find a way to get through despising trite rubbish like that! I know I would be a good candidate, I know I could do the job well, I am actually reasonably enthusiastic about what I would be doing, but I have never been OK with the idea I should have to act like companies are doing the world a favour by existing. I interview fairly well but haven’t had to do it for a long time so the whole concept is painful.

    1. Windchime*

      I’m in the United States and have had many job interviews and I’ve never been asked the “biggest weakness” question, if that makes a difference.

  82. Lurky McLurkerson*

    I started a new job this week, and I’m cautiously optimistic that this may be the job I stick with for a while to come! I’ve bounced from job to job for almost 10 years. I’m 30 and graduated at the height of the recession and it has always felt like I needed the job more than the employer needed me– and they treated me accordingly. This new employer sought me out and paid accordingly. I have an actual office for the first time ever, and all-you-can-drink seltzer, lol. What more could I want?!

  83. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Also, I have a black eye today. My spouse often moves in her sleep, and last night rolled over with her arm out and relaxed. I was cold and so I was close to her- end result, she accidentally smacked me! It’s awkward at work today.

    1. Girasol*

      You should make up a fabulous fiction to go with it so you can sound like a hero.

    2. Pwyll*

      Own it.

      I gave myself a black eye a few weeks ago by VIGOROUSLY answering my desk phone. I told everyone I would only do meetings by smoke signal from now on to be safe. It definitely diffused the awkward looks.

    3. LadyKelvin*

      Just make an awkward joke about “You should see the other guy.” That’s how I deal with most of my more obvious bruises, etc. I’m super clumsy and often have no idea where they came from. Run into a wall? Probably.

      “I’d give her a HA! And a HI-YA! And then a OOH-WAH! And I’d kick her, sir.”

    5. Book Lover*

      So, just in case you’re not aware, that isn’t normal (moving a lot in her sleep). She should talk to her doctor and may need a sleep study. Sorry about your bruise :(

      1. Observer*

        Yes, a sleep study sounds like an EXCELLENT idea. If I recall correctly, she has some health issues, and poor sleep can contribute to or exacerbate it.

  84. Big Hair No Heart*

    I have a question about if it would be acceptable for me to push back on a request from my manager and if so, what’s the best way to word it?

    I work in a small nonprofit and have for almost 2 years. 3 people work here: me, my manager, and an office manager (Sam). Sam and I both think our boss can be a bit of a micromanager and penny-pincher. Why hire a plummer to fix the always-running faucet in the bathroom? He’ll just bring in his tool set and Sam and I can figure out how to fix in our downtime! That kind of thing. I guess I don’t care about catering to his silly requests during normal business hours, he’s well aware that this kind of crap can take away time from more important work, but he wants me to do stuff like this anyway. So, whatever.

    But recently, he mentioned that the carpets need cleaning and he wants to rent a steam cleaner and we can all just come in one Saturday and clean the carpets. I have no desire to do this, nor does Sam. Apparently, not long before I was hired, he made a similar claim and followed through on it. Sam said it took them 3 hours and she hated wasting her Saturday on deep cleaning the office. If he does the same thing now, is there any way I can say no? I’m worried if I tell him I’m unavailable on a certain day, he’ll postpone it. Sam and I are also exempt, so I sense telling him that I need to use weekends to unwind will not land well with him. Thoughts?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you and Sam maybe able to make a united front on this are try to convince him otherwise. Some language you might try could be, “Boss, we’ve discussed and we really think it would be better to hire a professional to do this because of X and X. Can we sit down and talk about that possibility?”

      And then wait and see what happens. I would have a solution other than you three doing it (or two) ready to go when you go speak to him.

      I would also add that this behavior is unlikely to change in the long term, and you may need to decide long term of you can put up with it.

      1. Big Hair No Heart*

        I agree this is going to keep happening, and I need to leave (this is not the only issue I have with my boss, as you can maybe tell).

        In the meantime, I like your script and agree that Sam and I should argue our case together since we both want to avoid this. She’s been here longer and has more social capital so maybe that will help. I’m just not sure what reasons we could give that wouldn’t come across to him as whiny. I know a professional would do a better job, but I don’t think he really cares about that so much as he likes the idea of getting it done cheaply.

      2. Kerr*

        Yes on having a solution ready. I’d recommend getting a quote from a couple of different cleaners first, so you and Sam can present them at the meeting. It’s harder to say “no” if you have options right in front of you.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It sounds as if you have an office job… and he’s expecting you to do plumbing and cleaning? I would certainly push back on that (jointly with Sam), and if your boss is really insistent, I would just do a lousy job… not a deliberately lousy job… but you’re not a professional plumber or cleaner, so why would he expect professional quality? And if he’s disappointed in the results, well, that’s not what you were hired for!

      If he’s still insistent after that, I would start dusting off my résumé.

      1. Big Hair No Heart*

        Ha! I definitely thought about that, but if there’s any way I could get out of it all together, that would be preferable. I have definitely started looking elsewhere.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “That’s really something that we need to bring in someone to do. I want to stay focused on X and Y, which is what I came here to do.”

      And if necessary, “This is the kind of thing that offices bring in people to do. It’s not at all typical to ask employees to do this.”

      1. Big Hair No Heart*

        Thank you, Alison. It’s honestly hard for me to imagine saying either of these things to my boss (though I agree that they are the right things to say and any reasonable person would agree). When I first started working here, I would absolutely have said something like this, and did speak up once or twice when I felt he was being out of line, but I was told I needed to work on my attitude. I feel like I’ve become much more deferential since then. But I will try to stand up for myself. It will be easier knowing that I’m not being whiny and this kind of request is so outside of typical office convention.

        1. nonegiven*

          You could always break the plumbing in a way that make the sink unusable until an actual plumber comes.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “You need to work on your attitude.”

          “This has nothing to do with attitude. Plumbing is beyond my skill set. I will not be able to just pick it up as we go along. Carpet cleaning, plumbing etc were not discussed at my time of hire. I signed on for the work the position calls for. If you had mentioned this at the hiring stage, I would have had the opportunity to explain that these are not things I am good at and probably never will be.”

          Family member was asked to tar a flat roof, in regular business clothes and shoes. A roof. Family member said that the boss would have to wait so that family member could bring work clothes to change into. This worked because family member KNEW the boss was very hyper and would find waiting until tomorrow to be absolute torture. Boss said, “never mind then”.
          If you know your boss you might be able to play a card like this and win. But you’d have to really know your boss.

  85. OwnedByTheCat*

    I thought I’d found a great venue for our big fundraising gala next year, but their booze quote has my jaw on the floor. Other event planners, chime in?

    They want us to pay based on consumption, which is fine and actually alleviates worrying about major overages. But they want $10/cocktail, $8/glass of wine, and $6/domestic beer. For an event of our size we’d be looking at a beverage bill that would definitely top $10K and could easily reach $20K. It seems really unreasonable to me, and I’m bummed I have to find a new venue as a result.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        It really ranges, but I’ve never paid basically market rate for each drink. $8/wine is what I’d expect to pay if I went to this venue as a dinner customer, and $6/beer for domestic beer (think Budweiser) is just nuts to me!

          1. OwnedByTheCat*

            I did, and they said they couldn’t lower the cost, so now I’m just fuming about a venue trying to charge $6 for domestic beer. I really don’t think I’m off-base here, but I’m also just in cranky pants mode about everything today so I wanted to check my rationale before I (politely) tell them to stuff their $6/beer.

            Sigh.

            Unrelated, if anyone knows of great venues in SW Austin, let me know :)

    2. Jules the First*

      That sounds like cash bar rates (ie, what I’d expect to pay as a guest rather than what the organiser should be paying). Can you go back to them and clarify that you’ll be picking up the tab directly and see if they can do a discount on their per-drink price? Theoretically wine should be by the bottle and beer by the case if you’re paying in a single block.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yeah, wine on consumption should always be charge by the bottle, not by the glass. I’m in NYC, so the beer rates ring true for me. Do they not offer open bar packages?

        1. OwnedByTheCat*

          They do sound like cash bar rates, don’t they? I pushed back and said we’d need to do something else and clarified this would be an open bar and the prices were too high. They suggested our (ticketed, paying) guests pay for their drinks which isn’t what we wanted, and they don’t offer an open bar.

          I’ve only ever paid for beer and wine by the case/bottle or a price per head for an open bar so the whole thing has thrown me for a loop!

    3. ByLetters*

      That .. sounds normal to me? Maybe it depends on the size of your venue & the size of that market in the city, but that’s in line with the prices for larger, professionally run venues in my area.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        That you would pay out of pocket? Guests aren’t paying, we are. I’d expect to pay maybe $10K for a full open bar for a few hours as part of our catering contract. If it were a cash bar the rates are great, but it’s not.

    4. Pwyll*

      It’s definitely not common for a pre-booked open bar event to have drinks charged at retail like this. I mean, maybe if there’s no room fee, no gratuity, and the drinks were being passed. But this seems off for my area, and it’s definitely off if you’re paying a room fee as well.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        Thank you. We are paying a room fee and are using their caterers as well so it just feels totally out of line. Thank you for chiming in. I wasn’t sure how much of my reaction was just pregnancy rage!

  86. Amber Rose*

    So, this year’s work event is a dinner theater/murder mystery thing on a train. We’re going tomorrow night, it’s supposed to last almost four hours. Should be kinda fun. I know some people are so adamantly against work social events, but I think Boss man comes up with some neat things I wouldn’t normally do on my own (or be able to afford). It is optional too.

    I am hoping it doesn’t involve much from me though, because I had foot surgery on Tuesday and walking sucks.

    I would’ve liked to take some time off for recovery. *sigh* How the heck do people focus on work when a body part is screaming “part of me is gone and I’m VERY ANGRY ABOUT IT!”

    1. Rincat*

      That actually sounds kind of fun to me, and I’m normally a cranky old fun-hating introvert.

      I’m sorry about your foot! I bet they won’t make you do much (if any) walking since you JUST had the surgery, otherwise that would be cruel.

    2. Friday*

      It does sound pretty fun, but if you’re in need of more recovery time and therefore need to sit it out, then a reasonable boss would understand that. FWIW I probably wouldn’t go to that either because I get motion sickness if I’m not staring at the horizon on a moving train.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      That sounds fun to me too! If this is on a train, you most likely won’t be walking much, but call the company and ask what it entails, then explain your situation and I’m sure they’ll provide a chair or stool or something you can put your foot up on. If you do have to walk from car to car, you may want to sit this out.

    4. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      I think that actually sounds fun as well. But, isn’t it a bit strange to have a work event like that on a holiday weekend? Because while I would normally wouldn’t mind something like that, I would be particularly peeved about it being on one of my few 3 day weekends a year.

    6. MissGirl*

      I had to work with a missing body part that was extremely angry. Took a week off, then worked from home for a week where I could set my hours. Not being able to do that sucks. Back at work when I had to get up to go to the bathroom, I would take my water bottle to fill, grab food even if I wasn’t hungry, and replace my ice pack because I knew I wasn’t getting up for another two hours.

      Keep a couple of good ice packs at work so you always have one. Make sure your schedule is clear when you get off work so you can recover. See if there’s people who can pick up a few groceries. I went grocery shopping after work that first week and had to cry a little in the car afterwards—just so tired.

  87. NJ Anon*

    Barefoot interviewer? Weird or not? Went on an interview yesterday for a very small company and the woman who came and got me from the reception area and with whom I was meeting was barefoot. She was appropriately dressed otherwise. She offered no explanation. It totally came across to me as unprofessional. I get having a relaxed atmosphere and there were other red flags (she didn’t know what exempt vs. non-exempt meant and I had to explain it to her.)

    One of my kids (aged 29) thought they were being “chill” but this isn’t google; it’s an office job. Is it me?

    1. Rincat*

      Nah, that’s weird. I’m 33 and I think it’s weird. Sometimes at work, if I’m wearing sandals or slip-off shoes, I’ll slip them off under my desk but if anyone approaches me or I have to get up, I definitely put my shoes back on. Unless she had some very good reason for needing to be barefoot, like a medical reason or something, that just seems weird.

    2. katamia*

      Any chance of cultural differences? When I worked overseas in a country where people often take their shoes off indoors at their houses, people would walk around the office barefoot (not everyone, but a few). It was a little weird, but as a shoe-hater myself, I didn’t mind it so much even though I never did it myself.

      1. Mike C.*

        Yeah, but don’t folks usually have socks on, or use slippers that are specifically for indoor use?

        1. katamia*

          This office didn’t have any, or at least none that I saw. It was a very casual workplace, and lots of people came to work in flip-flops at least some of the time.

            1. katamia*

              No, I mean people wore flip-flops and then took them off and walked around barefoot.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      That’s pretty unprofessional, but I wouldn’t call it a make or break issue unless there were other red flags.

    4. OwnedByTheCat*

      Kinda weird especially if she didn’t preface it with a horrible blister, wet shoes, etc.

      I tend to kick off my shoes under my desk and sometimes have to remember to put them back on when I go to the copier. Just seems a bit odd for someone to be wandering around our office barefoot especially when clients come in!

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it really depends on the office. I mean, I’ve worked places where someone being barefoot would not raise any eyebrows. And I’ve worked other places where there would definitely be outrage at the lack of professionalism.

      1. NJ Anon*

        But to interview someone? There did not appear to be a cultural difference. I know people who walk around the office without shoes on which squiggs me out cause you could step on a staple or push pin or something. But they would not interview someine barefoot. Weird.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, believe it or not, I’ve worked places where interviewing someone barefoot would be perfectly normal.

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              No, at a “progressive” school (not really progressive, just into a lot of trendy education-related buzzwords).

    7. Karenina*

      “No shoes” seems unprofessional in an interview even if they are a ‘chill’ office.

      Not knowing the difference between exempt and non-exempt would be a big red flag for me, especially if it’s reasonable to expect the interviewer to know it (they are a manager and not a new team member themselves).

    8. Emily*

      I want to point out that there may have been a legitimate reason she took her shoes off.

      For example, she may have broken a heel. Or perhaps they were a bit too small and caused pain. Who knows?

      1. Gingerblue*

        But wouldn’t you say something? I mean, most people are going to recognize that people interviewing are liable to be weirded out by a barefoot interviewer. If I broke a heel in that situation I’d certainly mention that yes, I’m barefoot, sorry, it’s because [X]. You don’t just leave them to wonder what’s going on in this workplace. It’s not the bare feet that are the issue so much as the obliviousness to what an outsider’s reactions are likely to be. Even if it’s an extremely casual workplace that encourages that, I’d want to have it explained as part of getting a feel for the company.

    9. Hrovitnir*

      Oh wow, that is super weird, but personally I would be stoked.

      (I only surrendered to wearing shoes all the time when I got to high school and had to wear tights and a kilt. *sigh*)

  88. Lynne879*

    I thought about writing in to Alison, but I think I’ll ask here first.

    I’m feeling frustrated while job searching because I feel under qualified for every job post I’m interested in.

    I know I should adhere to the “Requirements = wish list” rule, but I still never apply to anything because I feel under qualified, even though these are all entry level jobs.

    The reasons are combination of everything: I’ve never done these specific tasks before; they ask for 1-3 years of experience, but I have none; I have maybe one skill that they’re looking for, but nothing else (Ex. I’ve managed some social media accounts before for a small company, but I know nothing about marketing itself, I don’t know how to use Photoshop/Indesign, etc); I’m not familiar with the company & I feel like I have to really like the company to apply, etc. And because so many of these job applications can literally take hours to do, it encourages me even less to apply.

    I’ve had this attitude of feeling under qualified for job applications for a loooooong time. I never applied to any job the fit my degree after college because I didn’t feel like I had enough skills, experience, etc. to get the job. I also have very low self-esteem, which of course makes everything worse.

    How do I get out of the mindset that I’m not qualified for anything? Should I just apply for any entry level job I think I can do, even if I don’t have all the skills/requirements that are asked for?

    1. Salve Regina*

      I can definitely relate to this. Even when I search for jobs in my field/area and one comes up I get excited about it, but don’t even apply because I assume I will have no chance to get an interview, much less an offer. And how can I even write a convincing cover letter if I don’t even believe in myself? The struggle is real. I would recommend just making yourself apply for jobs you are interested in. Let the company decide whether or not you’re qualified. You never really can know what they are actually looking for or who else might also be applying.

    2. Casper Lives*

      I’m just now in the same boat. I’ve started job searching. Every job around my level wants something I don’t have, like 3-5 years of experience (I’ve got 2.5). I’m biting the bullet and applying. I think you should too! I know I’ve got to calibrate my expectations so my skills match up with the job, but not having a few of the requirements seems normal to me. The worst they can do is turn me down. I’ll be in the same position of being unemployed. I don’t know about your situation, but I can’t afford to wait for a perfect match-up. Good luck on your search!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      The way I approach these things is to disregard what previous experience they’re asking for (a number of years, specific certifications, experience using certain products or software) and focus on whether I could do the job or not.

      For example, if you don’t know how to use InDesign but all they want you to do is some basic editing of existing text or replacing of images, then you can probably pick that up. If they want you to actually design stuff in InDesign, then you would have a steep learning curve (not just for the technical aspects of the program but for design principles).

      Do you have a sense of whether you could do the job, given the information you have?

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There’s almost no job you can apply for when you’re entry-level where you’ll have done the work before; that’s the nature of being entry-level.

    5. zora*

      Are you sure you are looking at the “Requirements” list and not the “Job Responsibilities” list??

      If it’s the “Responsibilities” list, they are just giving you that info so that you can see what kinds of things you *will* be expected to do, and you are not expected to have done them before!! You should be able to see that some of them are in some way related to something you have done before.

      The “Requirements” list should be smaller and more the very basics. Like “have experience with phones” or “Microsoft Office.” That just means that you get the basics of how Word and Excel work, how to type, etc, and when someone asks you to open a document, you won’t be sitting there looking around and trying to figure out which icon means “Word”, as in, you have actually seen a computer before! It’s very basic!

      Don’t mistake the “Responsibilities” list for them expecting you have actually done every one of those tasks before! As Alison said above, it is entry-level, they are expecting to train you and show you HOW to do things!

      You don’t necessarily have to apply for every single job you think you can do, as you said, you don’t want to exhaust yourself with job applications. Maybe each week pull a bunch of job postings and look through them and pick the top 2 or 3 you think you would actually enjoy or have some interest in, and just apply for those. You could even start with just one! Pick one this weekend to apply for. Don’t think beyond that one. Once you have done one you can decide how you feel about the next one!

      1. Anna Held*

        I agree. It’s so easy to psych yourself out. If the majority of stuff fits you, go with it. And don’t worry too much about company fit or that sort of thing yet (unless it’s really off) — you can always think of it as practice.

        What jumped out at me though is that you’re spending hours on an application. I did that too, but it’s too much. Alison recommends 20 minutes per cover letter. I could never do that, but I did find I could do 30, rather than stewing over it for hours! Re-read her columns on cover letters and start getting stuff out without overthinking it all. Go for efficiency as much as perfection. You don’t know what will be perfect for this job, so do your best, quit stewing, and move on to something else.

    6. Thlayli*

      Changing your mind frame might require you to ease into it.

      Right now you are only applying for roles where you meet all of the requirements? And you’re asking should you just apply to anything regardless of requirement. that’s a big jump (and would also likely not work, since they are unlikely to hire someone with zero Of their requirements).

      As meatloaf said – Maybe look for roles where you meet 2 out of 3 requirements. So if they have 6 and you meet 4 – go for it.

      1. Thlayli*

        Oops editing error. That was supposed to say “as meatloaf says – 2 out of 3 ain’t bad”

    7. JamieS*

      As long as the core job description sounds like something you’re capable of doing with a reasonable amount of training I’d recommend applying assuming it’s a job you want.

      It also sounds like you may be selling yourself and your skills short. For instance you say you’ve managed social media accounts in a professional capacity before but know nothing about marketing. Managing a business’s social media account is a form of marketing experience. Sure it’s not all there is to marketing but I doubt many are going to be experts in literally every aspect of marketing especially people who are entry level. Actually I’d wager that’s true in most fields.

      Finally you mention not being skilled in software such as Photoshop or InDesign. I’m not sure if those skills are necessities in your industry or job “nice to haves” but it may be worthwhile to look into learning one or more of the programs even if it’s just a free online beginners class. Even if they aren’t strictly necessary if you see them mentioned a lot having even a rudimentary understanding would be beneficial.

  89. zora*

    I’ve been trying to focus on the upsides of the perks at this job, and there are some, even though they keep taking some small ones away since we were acquired by the bigger company last year. They are little things that should’t cost the company much, but made a difference in our quality of life in the office, and everyone’s been a little irritated when another one disappears.

    Well, they just announced the new company’s policy on Summer Hours. (Former company’s policy: you get an extra 4 paid Fridays that you can take on your own schedule). New policy: you can leave early on Friday, but only if you make up those hours by working extra the rest of the week. THE WRINKLE: I am the only non-exempt employee in California. ……. Yep, due to overtime regs in California, I’m not allowed to work over 8 hours on any day. So, I am the only person in the company who just doesn’t get this perk??????

    I’m annoyed right off the bat that HR didn’t notice this problem and reach out to me proactively. But, I sucked up my feelings and wrote a very professional but direct email to the head of HR asking about my situation. And a week later, I still haven’t gotten a reply. I am super frustrated. Please tell me if I should suck it up and just let it go? Or if there is some alternative I could suggest to them that would work for California? Or that I should suck it up and shut up? THANKS!

    Also, PSA for the decision makers out there: If your employees have a little, inexpensive perk, do what you can to not actually take it away. It might seem like a little thing to you, but feels like a much bigger insult when it’s taken away than if you never had it in the first place.

    1. Friday*

      California definitely allows work past 8 hours in a day – the law just states that you must be paid OT for all time beyond the first 8 hours. Does your company forbid OT?

      1. zora*

        You’re right, I meant, “I’m not allowed to work over 8 hours without overtime pay.” They do pay me OT when they genuinely need me to work over the 8 hours, which happens very rarely.

        But since this is a perk, they aren’t going to want to pay me extra to work the same amount of hours as everyone else. It’s supposed to be just providing extra flexibility during the summer. Or, I assume they won’t want to pay me extra anyway… maybe I shouldn’t assume that.

        Non-exempt people in other offices will be working 9 hours Mon-Thurs, and then only working 4 hours on Friday. For a total paycheck for the normal 40 hours. That’s the part that’s not legal in CA.

        1. Friday*

          You should ask for clarification on if it applies to you as well and as a non-exempt person, make sure they know that you would be getting OT for any hours over 8 worked. You might have some sway if you are the only non-exempt person in your office and all of the exempt people are going to be taking advantage of this, leaving you alone for four hours on a Friday – IF you need others present to connect with to do your own job, that is.

          1. zora*

            It’s even better, all of the hundreds of other people in the company across the country will be leaving and closing the offices at midday, and I will be the only person at my desk.

            But, yeah, that’s my other frustration, I did ask for clarification, I sent emails to HR, and I haven’t heard back from them. So, I also feel like I’m being ignored.

            1. zora*

              I just don’t know if I should keep pushing for some kind of response from HR, or if I should just let it go and just work normal hours for the summer. Just accept that I don’t get this perk, bc I’m a lowly admin.

              1. WellRed*

                Pick up the phone and call HR. Even if they haven’t figured tjis out yet, they should at least communicate that to you.

                1. zora*

                  omg I can’t believe this literally didn’t occur to me! Wow, thank you!

                  There is a very email-heavy culture here, and people rarely call, so I just completely am out of the habit. But it’s not super anti-phones, I’m sure they would be okay if I called.

                  And thank you for the encouragement that I should at least get clarification on this, even if the end result is I don’t get to do summer hours. Thank you!

    2. WG*

      Is there some way to work your schedule so that you receive OT for hours worked over 8 in a day but still receive the equivalent of 40 hours pay for the week? It would mean you were physically working less than 40 hours, though. For example, working 8.5 or 8.75 hours Monday through Thursday and then enough hours in Friday to bring your gross pay to the equivalent of 40 hours. Or figure out what you’d need to work Mon. – Thurs. (even if it’s not the same number if hours each day) to only need to work 4 hours on Friday.

      I’m not sure if that’s legal under CA law or if your company would be amenable to that idea for the summer. But it could be an option to consider suggesting.

      1. zora*

        I just thought of this after I posted my above comment, but I’m really not sure. I mean, they would be getting less work out of me for the same amount of money, and I doubt that my company would be okay with that concept.

        It is interesting though, and it would be legal in CA. Thanks for the idea!

  90. Just me, Vee,*

    Pet peeve: We have narrow hallways between cubes and I hate it when people gather there to talk. Heaven forbid that they move to the same side of the hallway so i don’t have to hunch over scurry between them.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If it’s the same space hogs all the time, I would stop hunching and stop scurrying.

  91. Anxa*

    So, it’s summer semester where I work, and that means things are going to be slow for me, especially in the first week.

    I started out using this week as time to prep for either leaving the job (producing and organizing content for coworkers or new hires) or for when it picks up later.

    Then I lost my USB.

    So a few things:
    1) It had a bunch of personal information, including embarrassing, but not explicit photos
    2) It had a bunch of my resumes and cover letters on it, which is not so bad because my bosses know I’m not thrilled about part-time work and it’s a high turnover job
    3) It had my SSN on it (job application copies)
    4) It had 6 semesters worth of content, only about 40% of which is recovered

    I know, I know, I shouldn’t have so much info on a USB I bring to work. Which was why I had bought two, but unfortunately one of them didn’t work and I hadn’t had the money to replace it yet. Online isn’t ideal because I need to be able to access my files without internet.

    So aside from the personal loss of photos, documents, and the identity theft risk, I’m worried about students or other staff looking through my files and it reflecting poorly on me. I do have some student information on there, but it shouldn’t be a true data breach as it only has names and attendance information.

    Also! This means that I have felt practically no motivation to keep up with work as I just lost so much of it. I don’t want to duplicate work in the case that it’s found, and it’s daunting to start up again in case it’s not found.

    Also, I remember, I think, ejecting the usb, but I can’t remember explicitly packing it. I left the computer at work, may have gone to the bathroom, then left. I did take my phone out of my pocket to call SO, and may have pulled it out of pocket, but I checked all the walkways, parking lots, went dumpster diving, recycle bin diving, tearing up my car, apartment, calling every front office possible, and nothing. I had discovered I didn’t have it about 1.5 hours after last using it, so it feels like it literally disappeared. The last time this had happened it turned out to be in the car, but had fallen in such a way that it ended up in the seat track thingy (look at the tracks your seat slides on you’ll see how it’s perfectly shaped to had a USB).

    I think I need to try to catalog what I lost so I don’t feel so unmoored.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Ouch.

      I BitLockered mine (I had to, in order to use it at work). I would definitely do this to your next USB. That way if you lose it at least you know no one can get to your files. And if you carry it back and forth, get a lanyard and a little case that fastens onto it and wear it. That’s how I keep from losing mine.

      1. zora*

        agreed, I need to attach things to myself to make sure I won’t lose them. I’m so sorry this happened!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Take some one with you, if you can, as a second set of eyes and retrace your exact steps. Start with sitting at your desk and deciding it’s time to leave. Look in the drawers, the garbage can anything the two of you can think of.

      My friend found a wallet in the mall parking lot. He knew exactly who it belonged to. It was an older woman who had exchanged pleasantries with him the day before while he waited for his granddaughter. uhhh, he found her wallet because he was looking for his lost wallet also. He actually found his wallet, too.
      He drove the wallet over to the woman’s house. She was could not believe that someone found her wallet. Both wallets sat overnight in a mall parking lot probably within 20 feet of each other.
      My point is that stuff lays out in plain sight and people just don’t see it. Try again.

      1. Anxa*

        I went dumpster diving in my apartment and also went looking through the recycling bin at work (but I can’t be sure I didn’t get there after it may have gone missing. I have tried going out in different lighting. Watching the patterns of rain water to follow where it may have been swept off too. I retraced and retraced over and over again.

        At this point I think it’s only recoverable if I somehow did bring it home. I distinctly remember emptying my pockets as part of my walking in the door routine, but not what I emptied them of (and can’t find any pocket material anywhere). I will ask my SO if he can look more at home, though. He’s a different height, so that may help! I’m so hoping it’s just sitting somewhere here in my apt.

  92. DietCokeHead*

    Happy holiday weekend Friday! I was lucky enough to start coming down with a cold on Wednesday but of course, I had to drag myself in today because anyone calling off the day before a paid holiday does not get paid for that holiday! Because of course no one ever gets sick before a holiday! However, three things are helping right now. One, that I can dress casual, two, that half the office took off already, and three, that I called in yesterday so at least I feel about 50% better.

    1. Karenina*

      I hate nasty, suspicious policies like that. People aren’t going to take ‘advantage’ of offered sick time before a holiday if your PTO and time off policies are fair to begin with. I’ve worked in places where you are not allowed to take time off before or after a holiday, which is insane (scheduling travel around holidays is pretty normal, I think). But refusing to pay you sick leave just because it happens around a holiday is BS. That’s so frustrating!

      I hope you feel better and have a restful weekend.

      1. Wren*

        I disagree about people not taking advantage of it. We have several thousand call center employees and many of them manage to use our very generous PTO to the second every chance they get.

        1. zora*

          Using your provided benefit fully =/= taking advantage.

          That is also different than making weird rules about something by definition unpredictable (being sick) because you think they are going to lie to you about how they are using their provided benefit of paid time off. At my work, lots of people take extra time around holiday weekends, but the standing policy is you can take whatever time you want “if all client work is done.” The important part is deadlines and deliverables, and as long as you hit those, if you want to rearrange your work around taking of Friday before Memorial Day so you can get some extra time with your family, we’re going to acknowledge you are humans and those things are importan tto you.

          1. Wren*

            In a call center, we need people to be here to actually answer calls. There is no time when all work is done. And people do schedule those days off, but the issue is the number of people who are told no, we already have 20 people off that day and call in sick because they really, really want a 4 day weekend.

  93. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

    Drat, somewhat late again!

    Did we ever get an update for this one?

    https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/open-thread-april-28-29-2017.html#comment-1465711

    This is the UK based one with Sansa the no-show and Tyrion the manager with a plan “at some point”. The OP was going to leave, and his other coworker (the one that showed up) was putting in notice as well. So, the department would be down to Sansa and the manager.

    Please update if you can! I’m super-curious what happened next!

  94. jay*

    I have a friend from my home country who is starting her OPT period after graduating with a Master’s. This is someone I’ve helped numerous times with her CV, applications, advice, etc. For this latest job hunt as well, she came to me for advice and I helped her as I always have. She ended up in a situation that I’ve faced before and I’m sure many others have: Company A offered her a position while she was still in an early round with Company B, which she preferred. I advised her to either try to buy more time from Company A or ask Company B to expedite, but to not do something (in my books) unethical, which would be to accept Company A and then discard them if B worked out. Needless to say, that is exactly what she did recently. I had strongly advised her against it because – 1) I had essentially played the role of a mentor in her journey 2) This was the kind of thing that gave people from our home country a bad reputation 3) Company A would have closed their hiring process, said no to their standbys, etc. and it would also affect the lives of others who may have wanted that job but ended up accepting something with lower pay 4) It was the kind of thing I had seen done in my (different from hers) line of work that led to people being blacklisted in the industry. Despite all of that, she did this and seems to show little remorse. What I’d like your advice on is if I should just let this go because it comes down to me being personally offended, or if I should try to do something else about it.

    1. jay*

      I should add that she did try to ask Company B if they would expedite, but they said they would not. In her mind, she justifies it as:
      1) We all gotta look out for ourselves
      2) They reject candidates after long interview processes themselves (which I don’t buy because they never said yes to you and it would be equally unethical for a company to accept you and then, weeks later, say no)
      3) That USA has an at-will employment scene (which I don’t think is applicable for justifying this behavior)

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m not sure what you think you can “do” about this. She has made her own decision – despite your warnings – and she will end up living with the consequences.

      What I would “let go” at this point is the friendship. I don’t see any reason to invest time and energy in the career development of someone whose ethics do not match your own.

      You’re not going to convince her that she was wrong by repeating everything you already told her.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You could say that you will not be available to give her advice that she does not use.

    3. MissGirl*

      What else could you do about it? In any mentor relationship, someone isn’t going to follow your advice 100% of the time. They have to make the decision they think is right as they are the ones who have to live with the consequences. While I may not agree with the decision she made, it was hers to make and five years from now she may regret it or may be extremely glad she made it.

      I think you’re starting to look at her decision as a reflection on you and you’ve taken personal affront to it. This was her choice; not yours. You can decide you don’t want to serve as a mentor for her anymore. But if you value this relationship, I would let your anger go. In future mentor relationships, remember it’s you guiding but it’s up to the individual person whether they follow.

  95. Always anon*

    What should I wear to volunteer as an English (as a foreign language) teacher? Details in comments.

    1. Always anon*

      I want to look professional, but not too out of sync with what everyone else is wearing. (The other women mostly wear jeans or trousers with a nice top/blouse, but t-shirts aren’t unheard of. Some women who come straight from work wear more business-casual clothing.) Mostly I’ve been wearing nice tops and skirts, or dresses, but they’re on the shorter side. (I’d wear them around my grandparents without worry, and they pass the fingertip test, but I wouldn’t bend over in them.) I guess my question is… where’s the line for appropriate clothing, in an environment where it’s okay to dress casually, without dressing unprofessionally or too professionally?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you know what the other teachers and/or volunteers are wearing? I feel this will vary a lot from school to school, region to region, and country to country.

      1. Always anon*

        Casual clothing – the men wear t-shirts or shirts (no tie) and trousers/jeans, and the other women mostly wear trousers/jeans with casual-to-nice tops (some wear t-shirts). Some of the women who come straight from work wear business casual, like knee-length nice skirts with nice blouses. I’ve worn blazers and office-style skirts before and no one’s raised any eyebrows, but I don’t want to be too out-of-sync.

  96. Sarah W*

    For those of you working in Higher Ed, any tips on how to negotiate for the top of the listed salary range?

    Every position I’ve interviewed for in the past has ultimately resulted in the hiring manger telling me that the listed salary range was provided by HR, and the department can only afford the bottom of the range. Is that common?

    I’m currently interviewing for a couple of positions with very wide ranges where I would only consider taking the job if I received the top number. I’m worried about the same thing happening again.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Think of them less like a salary range for the open position and more like a salary band for all positions across the university that are rated at that particular grade. The salary range is typically a much smaller range at the lower end of the band. The higher numbers in the band are typically for people who have been in the position for a very long time and have gradually worked their way up to the top of the band.

      1. Ghost Town*

        This. If the job announcement has a job classification listed, that’s probably the top level code (like exempt, professional, student services vs. exempt, professional, public relations vs. non-exempt, professional, student services. VS support staff) but each subsequent actual-job code will have its own requirements and salary band.

        The actual salary ranges can also vary between departments and schools.

      2. Tuckerman*

        Good explanation. My University explains they typically offer somewhere between the bottom and the mid-point. They would probably only hire at the top of the range if they couldn’t find anyone to fill the position (i.e., there are a limited number of people with a particular skill set).

        1. Sarah W*

          Thanks for the feedback!

          Usually I would be ok with that if the range was a bit smaller. I just moved to a new city with an extremely high COL, and the positions I’ve recently applied for have really wide salary ranges with the bottom being so ridiculously low and below market value it’s hard for me to imagine anyone accepting them.

          I’m also a really good fit for the positions I’ve applied for, if not slightly overqualified. I guess I’m just hoping for advice on how to make a compelling case this time around! I wonder if departments would ever adjust their budgets if they found a strong enough candidate.

    2. Ghost Town*

      Yes, this is common. A few ads at my university will state the actual position’s salary range. If you have the relationship with the hiring manager, you could ask what the position will pay.

      I believe that for public universities in the US, salary information must be made public. We have a database that is updated every fiscal year, so doesn’t include any promotions or moves that happen after July 1. It can also be hard to find if you aren’t internal to the university or a subscriber to the local paper. If you know who was in the position or is in similar positions now, you can gauge a possible offer based on their numbers. (Hello waybackmachine for research!)

    3. Sarah W*

      The job postings usually just say something like – “Starting salary: $50-$75k DOE” which is a pretty big range. The particular position that I am interested in doesn’t list a job grade.

      When would be an appropriate time to ask the hiring manager what they have in mind?

  97. Susan*

    My manager posted in the conference room the following list of words that are not allowed in Teapot Department meetings:

    Assume
    Still
    Hope
    Think
    Whatever
    Maybe
    Might
    Believe
    Fixin’ to
    Probably
    Possibly
    Guess
    It is what it is

    This is… kinda ridiculous, right?

    2. H.C.*

      I’d be so tempted to post a list of synonym alternatives next to each of those forbidden words.

    3. Jan Levinson*

      I guess I don’t understand, LOL….like, you can’t use those words in any context?

      For example, the following wouldn’t be allowed?

      “I BELIEVE this meeting will be of real value to the teapot department.”
      “I THINK this department has succeeded greatly this quarter.”

      1. Emilitron*

        I would say that type of phrasing is worth preventing. “I think xyz”, “I believe xyz”, “I feel that xyz”, “maybe xyz might be a good solution” is a common way of softening statements, and can be a bad habit especially for women – just say what you have to say, those filler phrases a holdover of women not expecting to be listened to. Just say “This meeting will be of great value”, obviously that’s the opinion of the person saying it. So I’ve tried to reduce that in my emails. But that’s for gratuitous use of filler phrases, if management is encouraging phrasing valid opinions as solid statements.

        It could be different though. A lot of the words in that list are really really important. “Is it x or y?” and you reply, “I believe the customer requested x, but I will confirm with them.” So the management is requesting that either you answer “I don’t know” because x is not 100% verified, and/or that you just say “x” and not tell them that there’s a chance it might be y. That seems like a terrible policy.

        Or to follow my own advice, “That is a terrible policy”.

        1. Observer*

          No. I understand that sometime people, especially women, tend to use these phrases as softeners. But it’s a really big mistake to conflate that with reasonable use of these words. “This meeting will be of value” is the opinion of the person making that statement – sure. But, it’s stated as a fact which leaves no room for difference of opinion – and generally makes the person who says it look out of touch and imperious.

          In many cases it’s even worse. “The thingamajoggies are 10′ long” is a statement of fact that could be part of a spec. “I think the thingamajoggies are 10′ long” indicates that this is something we need to check on before we commit.

          I could give tons of examples of why this kind of thinking is mistaken. But the bottom line is that this type of thing does more harm than good because it doesn’t get at the real problem, but makes communications much more difficult.

    5. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      It would make me so happy to hear someone say they were ‘fixin to’ do something in one of our meetings! I love that phrase. :)

    6. Karenina*

      Well, the word ‘Yikes’ isn’t banned, so that’s what I’d use.

      Because this is YIKES.

    7. LK*

      ahahhaha it’s like playing Taboo at work.

      That would make my eyes roll hard and then I would just not saying ANYTHING at the meetings because… I’m petty.

    8. Master Bean Counter*

      I assume the hope is still that whatever they might think that maybe they believe that by fixin’ to institute this possibility that they can probably guess that people will comply. But it is what it is, which is ridiculous.

    9. TL -*

      I guess it is what it is, but I assume you can still think these words to yourself or whatever, right? I believe that after a meeting or two like this, she’ll probably forget all about it – maybe she is just venting stress and, after thinking, “I’m fixing to explode!” possibly thought that this might make it better. She’s got to hold out hope it’ll get better.

    11. Ramona Flowers*

      This is clearly a music quiz that requires you to complete the song title.

    13. Bess*

      Could you just be like “oops I said ‘think,’ guess I’ll have to leave the meeting and never come back

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Yet, they STILL THINK, BELIEVE, ASSUME and HOPE that employees MIGHT POSSIBLY chose to remain under their employ?

      Okay. I have seven in one sentence. Go.

  98. StartupLifeLisa*

    Acquisition Update: The situation has disintegrated to the point the someone had to tell the engineers to avoid getting drunk until after 4 PM and not to take up conference rooms with their poker league. It’s difficult for HR to handle the situation… mostly because HR is IN the boozy poker league.

    I have a Skype interview for a job in Australia on Sunday. Trying to get FAR from this slowly exploding trainwreck!

  99. Detective Rosa Diaz*

    So I got laid off basically for not fitting in, fine OK. But then I discovered that I have been BLOCKED from every social media platform, which truly is the nuttiest thing a past employer has ever done. Get over yourselves weirdos, I definitely don’t care. What’s the pettiest thing a workplace has ever done to you?

    1. Jan Levinson*

      I resigned from my last job, where the culture was toxic,

      I was an hourly employee (8:00-5:00), and on my last day, I had an exit interview scheduled for 4:00, so I emailed my managers the afternoon of my last day (I was a remote employee), letting them know that although I was logging off of our system a little before 4:00 PM, my clock in and clock out times would reflect a normal, 8-5 day, since my last hour of the day would be spent with HR in an exit interview.

      The big boss (whom I had only communicated with once or twice in my year tenure there), promptly responded to my email, CC’ing all the other managers in the company, with “just so you know, we don’t use phrases like “clock in” and “clock out” to describe the hours we work. This is a professional business, after all.”

      My jaw dropped when I read the email because of how petty it was. I was literally hours from never having contact with this woman again, and her email seemed like one final attempt to ridicule, embarrass, and call me out for my mere word choice, for no reason at all.

    2. Karenina*

      Loving all the Broklynn 99 references in people’s names today.\

      Petty story time!

      There is a lot of other context to this story, but I’ll try to keep it short. When I left my last job, management and leadership really botched the transition. They tried to keep my leaving a secret, they took it personally, and didn’t take steps to transfer information until my last 2-3 days. Obviously, by the time I was out the door, my relationship with them was more or less toast, and I wasn’t surprised that they didn’t plan any sort of ‘goodbye’ for me, even though a) they had done that for several other employees who were leaving and b) I had been there longer than everyone but the owners and a couple of department directors.

      However, I still had a lot of great coworkers that I was leaving. So on my last day, I invited a number of them to share a drink with me at a bar not far from my apartment after work. Not everyone, because I didn’t feel any obligation to do so, but also not “everyone except for these 3 people I don’t like” or something, which would have been blatantly rude.

      After work, I headed to the bar, and there was the CEO, with whom I had one of the most damaged relationships. He was grinning smugly and not at all embarrassed about going through people’s calendars (some people had put the happy hour on their schedule) and ‘crashing’. It left a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. He and the rest of leadership had really made my last 2 weeks at this long-term job miserable (to the point that I had broken down in tears at my desk, something I never do), and then when I tried to have a nice moment with a few people I still had a good relationship with, he made a point of screwing with that, too.

      I am so glad I left that place. Even remembering this still upsets me.

      1. Frustrated Optimist*

        I don’t use this word very often, but that guy sounds evil.

        Were you able to enjoy the evening at all with your friends?

    3. EddieSherbert*

      I worked at a restaurant where you had to memorize all the ingredients in all the foods (including the pre-made, frozen soup that we just heat up) to be eligible for a raise.

      You had to have a manager quiz you and sign off that you had memorized it all. And you couldn’t use work time for the quiz. Soooo you needed to come in outside of your shift and get a manager to come in outside of their shifts to quiz you.

      …. Needless to say, no one ever got raises there.

    4. Skweeks 50*

      In college I worked two part time jobs. One in a comic book store and a temp job at a private university which is how I got my foot in the door to my current full time job. The book store called on Wednesday to ask me to come work an extra shift, (all new comics come out on Wed so it is the busiest day of the week), I said that it was too short notice and I was unavailable. When I went in the store to open up on my next scheduled day the manager was sitting there in the dark. I was wondering why the alarm was already turned off and didn’t see him until I turned the lights on. He told me that they wouldn’t be needing my services any longer and even though it was not quite Christmas to take the company gift the owners had already purchased for me (an engraved ipod nano). I’m always on time, rarely call in sick, and never heard any complaints about my work. It was so weird.
      I found out several months later the manager had been stealing money from the company and was fired. I was also offered a full time position at the university and have been working there (in different positions) for the last 10 years.

    5. Nea*

      I left a department where I was miserable, in part because I felt that a coworker, Lady Catherine de Bourgh, was treating me like her idiot secretary. I attended one last meeting at Old Department as a new person was brought on to handle what I’d been doing on a large project.

      As part of the rollover, I reminded Lady Catherine de Bourgh that a whole series of necessary web pages were locked to the control of herself, myself, and someone who had retired. The new person would need to be added, and that would require a tedious one-by-one fix of the admin privileges.

      “You do it,” promptly ordered Lady Catherine. Reminding her that I no longer had anything to do with the project and had things to do elsewhere for New Department is one of the current joys of my life.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I was fired from a toxic job the day before our annual profit-sharing bonuses were to be issued (about 2 months after the end of our fiscal year), so of course I didn’t receive one.

  100. Desi*

    I need to vent and get some advice. How do you deal with an entitled coworker who is on a power trip and always in such dire need of the spotlight?

    Some backstory. I work in sales but my role is more supportive, and there is a team of us spread out throughout the state that support our respective regions. My region is larger and there are three of us working the region in different capacities. I started this job seven months ago with a book of business from my previous job at a competitor (1.5 years experience). My coworker is new to the industry and started five months ago, and the other coworker started three months ago with a decade of industry experience. The new coworker with no experience has been a monster to work with. She learned very fast and now has a tremendous ego and is always in my boss’s face. She and I have very polarizing personalities as I’m introverted but very altruistic and pleasant, and she is VERY aggressive and egocentric. My boss just loves her though, and she can do no wrong in his eyes despite what I or anyone else has maybe said. This may be irrelevant, but we are all young females, and just my opinion, I know the environment can get catty among young females, and honestly I have taken the bait I think because she purposely gets under my skin. My boss has talked to me about relocating and moving to another market to get away from her, but I don’t see how that’s fair when I came with experience and business in the area. She yells at people in the office but I don’t think he ever reprimands her. She treats our newest team member like total garbage because she was hired to handle our larger accounts, which she thought she was entitled to (despite having no industry experience..). None of us have hit our quotas until this month, where my team doubled their numbers. She interrupts with extremely resentful, passive aggressive remarks when someone asks me where I’m at for the month, and I finally had to tell her to “pay attention to her own team.” She also is assisting with a MASSIVE deal that’s going to happen next month, so I can’t understand her. She cannot stand to not be the star employee, and the worst part is is that my boss is grooming her to be promoted to manager. I DO NOT want to work for someone like her. My introverted behavior I think is causing more harm than good because I have trouble standing up for myself and can’t bring myself to sit down and tell her how I feel, and I need to since my boss refuses to intervene or have my back in this situation. How would you handle this? I don’t think I can win because my boss adores her and thinks she is amazing. For reference, he is only in our market about once a week so he doesn’t see her in action.

    I get frustrated by how short-sighted some of the management is in their perception of her and I. I wish my boss would intervene more, but he doesn’t want to get involved in this petty garbage. I am getting little recognition for having a stellar month, but I know when her month happens, it’s going to be an all-out brag-fest. Yes, I’m resentful of the treatment she gets, and I hate myself for feeling that way. The situation is becoming toxic and it’s wearing on me. I’m studying for the LSAT that’s in two weeks and it’s hurting my focus. It’s funny, because any female I’ve confided in about this totally understands, but the men I’ve talked to make me feel like I’m certifiable for allowing this to upset me so much. I know I can only control my reaction, but dammit I’m really easy to work with and I deserve some credit.

    1. neverjaunty*

      You don’t have a co-worker problem, you have a boss problem. And the men who are telling you there’s a problem are idiots – take gender out of this and you have the same problem (a dysfunctional co-worker who is the boss’s pet while everyone else gets ignored).

      It isn’t fair that you’re in this situation, but you are, and you need to get out one way or another. IME, bosses who pull this crap do not ever get better.

    2. Colette*

      Is it possible that you’re harshly interpreting everything she does because you don’t like her? You say she’s too loud, too aggressive, and passive agressive, but don’t give any examples. Maybe you’re right, but maybe you just don’t mesh with her.

      Can you try to look at things from her perspective?

      1. Hrovitnir*

        She said that she yells at people and treats the newest team member like garbage. I’m inclined to believe her when she says that her coworker is being aggressive and unpleasant to work with. Giving examples often leads to being nitpicked, so I don’t think a lack of specifics means anything.

        1. Colette*

          Maybe she’s objectively terrible, but I don’t see any indication that’s the case. In fact, management is in her side. And yes, management could be also terrible. But the solution management has come up with is for Desi to move to a new market. So even if the coworker is the one 100% at fault, Desi is the one who is paying the price at work. And, since Desi has said she resents the coworker, I’m sure the coworker is not 100% at fault. (Maybe >50%, but not 100%).

          But fault doesn’t matter if Desi’s reaction is hurting her own reputation, which it seems to be doing here. And she can’t control her coworker or management, so she has two choices: change her attitude or get a new job.

  101. Happy Clam*

    I got a job! I had a couple things fall through and didn’t have anything lined up when I finished my grad degree in January, so I’ve been hunting since then. And it finally happened! After a couple months of applying I got tired of the low response I was getting, so I started digging through the archives here to work on my resume and cover letter. And it paid off! Thank you Alison and all the commenters here who have shared their experiences!

    If anyone has any tips for calming first day nerves… that might be handy!

    1. Incognito*

      Hooray for you! No tips on the nerves though. Do leave yourself some extra time and plan to arrive a little early first day. That way you won’t have worries about lateness or feel rushed on top of everything else. I wouldn’t arrive more than 10 or 15 min early. If you’re earlier than that, you can grab something and chill out, remind yourself to breathe. Good luck!

  102. ForeverStudent*

    I received an offer for my first job post graduate school and I’m a little confused about the healthcare benefit options. The only choices I have is either a HRA or a HSA, but have a deductible of $1750. I’m leaning toward selecting the HSA, but I’m not really sure how the would be a better option with such a high deductible. Can those of you who’ve use similar healthcare options give me a little insight or things to consider before I choose?

    1. Jessie the First (or second)*

      HSA has to be a companion account to an actual health insurance benefit, so I assume you have a health insurance plan too, right? So I assume you mean that you can have an HRA for all your health needs, or you can have an insurance plus HSA option, in which case the insurance has a $1750 deductible, and then you can use your HSA funds to pay anything that falls under the deductible.

      HRA = employer reimburses you money that you have paid for health insurance and medical expenses (it will have its own coverage rules and benefit exclusions, etc, but generally it reimburses you after you pay)
      HSA = money is put in an account for you to pay health expenses that fall under the deductible of your health plan. Often, the HSA is funded by the employee, using pre-tax dollars deducted from your paycheck.

      Which is a better deal for you depends on the specifics of the HRA and the insurance linked to the HSA.

    2. Jessie the First (or second)*

      To clarify, because my brain is muddy today – an HRA goes hand in hand with an insurance plan too, it’s just the rules about the plans for an HRA are a little different.
      Ultimately, you can use either an HRA or HSA to pay your deductible expenses. But an HSA is an actual account that is yours. The HRA is not (the employer will reimburse you, but there is no money that is yours – no account to speak of). The specifics of the HRA will vary by employer, so you’d have to look to your job’s HRA plan to see what it will cover. And you would want to look at the HSA to see if it is employee-funded (which is the norm) or employer funded, or both.

    3. Effie*

      Well, with a High Deductible Health Plan in conjunction with an HSA, the way that my company’s insurance works is that you’re paying the negotiated rate between the insurance company and the provider, not the actual cost of the procedure/item/whatever. For example, Procedure A’s base cost is $300 and the rate negotiated by your provider is $150 so you’re paying $150. Also you get to use the HSA so any money that goes in there isn’t included in your taxable income as Jessie TF (os) says above.

      The negotiated rate is supposed to save you money in the long run (when my company was going over our coverage options they had a chart illustrating such), but that depends on your age and health and how often you go to the doctor.

      Personally I really like having an HSA although there is a little extra work keeping track of the money. Also usually I don’t pay until they send me the bill so sometimes I need to make sure the provider checked with the insurance company about the negotiated rate before sending me the bill (if they didn’t, I ask them to contact the insurance company again).

  103. Christina Anderson*

    I am expecting to hear from HR today or Tues with a job hour. The position is hourly, and in my first interview, the supervisor said she wasn’t sure of the pay, but that it was “at least $15/hr.” In the second interview, the head boss, with the supervisor present, indicated that I had almost enough experience to promote out of the title (said in a positive way) despite only being in the position for 2 years.

    With all that behind me, if the offer comes in at $15, I should definitely negotiate, yes? And do I do that with HR or with the head boss?

    Thank you!

    1. Allypopx*

      Yes!

      Do it with whoever contacts you with an offer. Who that is will depend on company, but if they’re offering, they’re probably the one with the negotiating power – or will liason with the person with the negotiating power.

      Congrats!

    1. Manders*

      Is this a home office or a business? I made my own at home by c-clamping a board to the arms of a regular treadmill. It’s not the most elegant setup in the world, but it gets the job done.

      Also, if you’re looking for deals, Craigslist usually has a few very lightly used under-desk treadmill+standing desk combos at low prices. I guess a lot of people buy the high-end stuff and never use it.

    2. Trixie*

      Corporate office to be used in common area. Researching models now. A separate treadmill/desk would be best with better options of adjusting table height but don’t think our budget will allow for it.

  105. Lita*

    I’ve been low-key job hunting for a few months because I want to move to a certain area. Everyone in my office knows. Word got to a company that we’ve worked with before, and on Monday I got a call out of the blue from our contact at that company, letting me know they were interested in hiring me. The contact told me that there were a few different positions I could take. I said I was definitely interested, gave her my personal contact information, and asked for a day or two to consider which position sounded like the best fit for me before the next person in the chain called me (as opposed to having a semi-interview the same day with no preparation).

    Now it’s Friday and I haven’t heard anything more. This opportunity seems perfect for me and I was starting to get really excited and now I’m worried that they weren’t all that interested, or I made a mistake by asking for a little time before the next phone call, or something. I’m feeling sick over it and I know it’s going to hang over me all weekend.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you sure they’re not waiting to hear back from you? Based on what you’ve described, I might assume you were planning to contact them once you thought it over.

      1. Lita*

        The person who called me asked for my permission to pass on my contact info to the head of the department where I would be working and told me to think about what I wanted to ask for in terms of position and salary before he called, so I was expecting to hear from him. But I will follow up with my contact so she knows for sure I’m interested and ready to talk.

  106. Incognito*

    I’ve had a few interviews this week. The companies and people all seemed fantastic, and I hope I will get an offer from any one of them. Of course we’re coming into the Memorial Day weekend so the earliest I’d hear back is Tuesday for the quick movers. The suspense!

    I did have another company putting together an offer, but the legal red tape on their end was insurmountable. That was super disappointing, but I had good interviews this week and working on some other promising leads. The market for my skills is the best I have seen it in a very long time. Something good should come through soon.

  107. Vengaboys*

    Is Adult Career guidance a thing and if so where do you get it? I’m at a real crossroads in my personal and professional life – educated and experienced but not in love with my industry and not sure where to go next. I know recruiters look at resumes in black/white terms but has anything worked for you in terms of figuring out what to do next?

    Mid life crisis!

    1. katamia*

      I saw a job coach a few years ago. Not sure how valuable it was, but they do exist. The issue for me was that my ADHD hadn’t been diagnosed yet, but my skill set/interests generally make it seem like painfully detail-oriented work would be perfect for me even though I hate it. Which isn’t really the job coach’s fault since she didn’t have a psych background.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It’s definitely a thing and you can certainly look for career/life coaches to help you out for a fee — but also look at your alma mater (if you went to college) and see if they offer career counseling services to alumni. They’ll often offer it for free and can schedule phone or Skype appointments for people who can’t come in person.

    3. LK*

      I am in British Columbia, Canada, and the government pays for “WorkBC” offices located all over the province. Their main goal is to get people off EI (unemployment subsidies) and into the workforce, but that’s not all they do and my husband has been working with them recently in regards to transition from one trade to another (he’s not on EI) and he’s got a fully taxpayer funded career counselor that he meets with once or twice a week who connects him with workshops on resume-building and coverletter creation and also career transition workshops….and so on. He’s had a really good experience so far. They even paid for him to get his first aid training. Wonder if you have something similar where you live.

  108. Anon for this*

    How do you deal with fielding questions and concerns when you don’t have much power to do anything about them?

    I work in a university office where students sometimes call to ask advising questions or to ask about advising appointments. Because advising is by major, there’s often only one person who can actually help them. I’m not an advisor, so I can only answer general questions. I also have very little authority in the office. Every now and then, I’ll get a call from a student who needs to talk to a particular advisor, “Carol.” Sometimes they report that they’ve tried calling and emailing Carol but haven’t heard back. Other times, they say that Carol referred them elsewhere and that person referred them back to Carol. In this instance, there’s really nothing I can do except encourage them to either email Carol again or wait until she has appointments available. I don’t know the whole context of what Carol has or hasn’t done to help them and I don’t have any authority to talk to Carol about her response time. I also have no control over things like how many advisors are available. But people are frustrated sometimes if they can’t get immediate help or if they feel it’s taking longer than it should.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you’re doing everything right. It really sounds as if Carol (I know that was just one example, but this would apply to any advisor who isn’t getting back to students) just needs to actually get back to people. Or… maybe you all need more advisors (if each advisor perhaps has too much of case load)?

      1. Anon for this*

        I think it wouldn’t hurt to have another advisor, even if it was just a part-time intern one. But I have little ability to push for that to happen and as far as I know, Carol isn’t complaining.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Aww, I commiserate! I work in higher ed administration and I often get calls and emails asking for assistance with class scheduling/picking a major. I have to be persistent and explain that not only am I not qualified to advise students, I am not ALLOWED to advise students! I feel bad when the academic advisors don’t answer their questions in a timely manner, and I try to explain that academics are often traveling for work or pleasure (especially during the summer) and cannot always respond quickly.

      People don’t understand that almost nothing in higher ed happens instantly.

    3. Cruciatus*

      What I did was give the program/department chair’s info to the student (if the program chair wasn’t on campus at the time. Otherwise I would call and see if they were available for some advising questions). That way A) the student gets helped and B) the program chair knows what Carol isn’t getting back to the students. I have had trouble with people who are the program chairs and I would talk to the director (I worked for a school on campus, and the director’s office was nearby) and say a student was having difficulty getting in touch with so-and-so, their advisor. And yes, frequently I had to just say to keep trying that advisor (especially over the summer). You could ask the office if there is a contingency plan for when the advisor is unavailable and is there someone else the student could go to? Like the advising center on campus maybe? Or just a faculty member who can answer advising questions, even if not their specific program?

      1. Awkward Interviewee*

        Contingency plans are good – are there other advisors/offices that can answer questions? If the student really does need to speak with Carol, there’s not much you can do. In my experience, dept chair isn’t a good substitute. I am an advisor, and when students try contacting the chair, it just gets forwarded to me anyway. And unless Carol clearly has communication/attendance issues, I hesitate to get higher ups involved. I’ve definitely had students get upset about “my advisor won’t get back to me!” when they had emailed me a mere few hours earlier and I was in a meeting or something. A good advisor will try to answer in a timely manner, but they often have a large student load and can’t get to everything right away.

        1. Anon for this*

          OP here. Yeah, I hesitate to bring the Chair into it because I don’t want to “tattle” on Carol. I do loop him in if there’s an immediate problem that needs attention, but not if the question is just “I need to choose an elective.” Also, while I do believe that a lot of these students have done their due diligence, we do get the occasional students who don’t accurately describe the situation.

          1. Cruciatus*

            It may have been different in the school I worked for. It wasn’t considered tattling since Carol was not responding to something that is part of her job. And I had to refer the student *somewhere* and the next best person was usually the program chair, or maybe another faculty member in the department depending on how quickly things needed to be answered. And I actually still would have done it even if the question was simple. If Carol was non-responsive for days or more then that’s a problem no matter what. I usually just said something like ” Hey Program Chair, Joe Schmoe needs help with an advising question. His advisor is Carol but she’s been unreachable for 2 weeks and Joe is able to register for classes tomorrow. Can you help?” and then I left it at that. So it was just factual information, not tattling information. But I would at least ask the office to have another plan so you can give the student something. Good luck!

    4. EddieSherbert*

      I actually was a student worker in the advising center during college!

      We had specifically trained (usually junior/senior students) who were actually their to help advise students in their major area with choosing classes and advice on what worked/didn’t work for them.

      We also had a one-on-one volunteer program where a new freshman could be paired with an older student in their major area to discuss some of this stuff. The program was run by the student advisers, who’d help out their volunteers as needed.

      The head of the Advising Center (maybe your boss?) also had enough sway to call out faculty advisers that were slacking and get them to respond to their students. Students could also request to change to other faculty advisers (if the major area had multiple professors).

    5. Ghost Town*

      I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. Keep kicking things back to Carol. Loop in the Chair of the program, the Director of Undergraduate Studies (or graduate), or the Director of Advising, whichever is her most immediate supervisor. Maybe copy them and Carol on replies to student emails or give them a daily/weekly update of “X number of student called for Carol regarding X, Y, and Z.” And/or in conversation with the hierarchy ask if there are commonly asked questions you can answer or direct to the correct location, like when do classes start (official calendar is here, yes you get X day off), how do I register (the registrar’s site actually has a fantastic step-by-step tutorial), financial aid/how am I going to pay for this (kick over to financial aid), what’s it cost (tuition is generally X, but other factors like A, B, and C impact the overall amount. plus room and board), will this count towards my degree (have you checked the website and/or the bulletin entry, if it is listed as counting in your bulletin, then it should! if not, you’ll have to check with Carol). It might not be your job, but might make you feel like you are better serving the students by giving them something.

  109. overeducated*

    Update from last week’s announcement that my division’s leadership hired a new employee to do work that heavily overlaps with mine (I am not an employee but was hoping this position would help me become one): had a long check-in meeting with my boss about all of our projects that went as well as it could have. Basically, we’ve created enough work for me to do in multiple areas that even if this new person takes over an entire area of work, I’ll have enough to keep busy and hopefully build a portfolio, even though of course I am not ruling out rocky transitions and unexpected loss of projects.

    And at the end I tried to ask very diplomatically about my boss’s advice or help with cross-training for future openings that may come up given that there is unlikely to be a second opening in my area. He said there is a small chance of one role opening up that he talked with his boss about and perhaps I could be considered for, provided funding exists, and I could focus on work on one particular topic to help prep for that. I don’t think the chances are high enough to put a lot of hope on, but I appreciate that he’s advocating and looking, and I think others in our division will be receptive to informational interviewing and advice on cross-training given how obvious it is that I will need to move on out of this position when my grant is up.

    That said, I’m not counting on sticking around any more. My spouse has started applying for permanent jobs in other parts of the country where we would like to live, starting as early as August, as well as short term jobs in this area. I plan to stay for at least a year (September) before I start seriously searching, but Wednesday I did see an ad for a job that I would really, really, really like in the region where we used to live, so I’m going to try to get that application in today or tomorrow. It’s actually such a perfect match for what I’ve wanted to do with my life for the last decade that seeing the listing made me immediately nauseated…this opening feels so once-in-a-lifetime, and rejection so depressing, that it literally makes me feel sick. So I’m procrastinating on writing the cover letter out of anxiety.

  110. Allypopx*

    I really need this today.

    So the cliffnotes version is I can’t decide if I should quit my job.

    I’ve mentioned a few times that I’ve been struggling with some stress-related health issues. I work full time and go to school near-full time, and my work-life balance sucks. I’m about to start a new medication + therapy and if this doesn’t work, I really need to decide what’s going to give.

    School is important to me. I also have realized that my job is a huge trigger for my anxiety. My boss is indecisive and I’m constantly anxious that the thing he’s told me to do is going to end up being the wrong thing in a week and I’m going to get lectured for it. We’re going through a major leadership transition and there’s a lot of infighting in the organization. I’m being given increasing amounts of work and any time I bring up trying to find some flexibility and work-life balance, I’m accused of pulling back and not being dedicated to my job. I’ve been here five years, it’s my first professional job, and I’ve given a lot of my heart and soul to this company, and while everyone cares, no one’s really willing to meet me halfway to do what’s best for me.

    But at the same time, living in the city and having all these current health issues, losing my income and health insurance is terrifying. My boyfriend’s in Grad School and I’m currently the breadwinner, even though I’m in school too (he’s working part time and I’m working full time). I don’t know what to do. I feel trapped and overwhelmed. If this treatment doesn’t work I’m worried I’m going to burn out and blow everything.

    Advice so truly appreciated.

    1. Manders*

      One thing to take into consideration is that the process of finding a medication + therapy combo that works for you doesn’t happen overnight, and sometimes it feels worse before it feels better. So when you’re weighing your options, don’t forget to take into consideration the possibility that you might feel kind of foggy or crappy for a little while until you get the right treatment.

      Some other things to think about:
      * Can you get health insurance through your school?
      * Does your school have any job options that are designed for students?
      * How easy would moving to a different full-time job be at this point?
      * Would working part-time be a possibility?
      * Have you talked with your boyfriend about how much longer you can be the breadwinner? Is there a firm end date on grad school for him?
      * Is there a firm end date on school for you?
      * Is there anything else that can give financially, like finding a smaller apartment or subsidized housing?

      I’ve been in a similar position, and it sucks. It really, really sucks. Eventually I had to have a serious discussion with my boyfriend re: who wins the bread and the fact that it can’t always be me, and he ended up picking up a lot of slack and our incomes are now close to equal. Also, I don’t know your gender, but if you read as female be aware that many academic departments push a LOT of toxic stuff on their students about men living the life of the mind while women support them financially in unglamorous positions, and that’s not fair and not really on you to live up to.

      1. Allypopx*

        Thank you for the thoughtful reply:

        He’s going to finish school before I do so I expect the dynamic to switch eventually. He’s also SUPER in favor of me quitting my job and promises we’ll figure it out – which will probably come down to asking his parents for money, and I have my own set of anxieties about that. I’m female but this is an in-home conversation at this point.

        I’m not sure if I could find another full time job right now that would match my (generous) salary and benefits.

        Health insurance through the school I’m currently at is crappy and might not accept my doctors, which is a dealbreaker at this point in the process. Also super expensive compared to what I’m paying now.

        Student loans are a possibility but I really want to go for my MBA and I don’t want that to be back burnered because I took out too many loans at this stage.

        I’m definitely giving the treatment time. I think I can commit to my job through the end of the year. But past that…feels daunting.

        1. Manders*

          Oof, that’s a tough spot to be stuck in. I agree that adding student loans on top of everything else is not the right choice for you right now.

          When is your partner expected to graduate? If I were in your shoes, my choices would be different if this were the last year I’d have to be the breadwinner vs. knowing I had four or five more years of balancing a full-time job and schoolwork.

          1. Allypopx*

            1-2 years, depending. I’ve already been doing this for a year and a half, doubling that is enough to turn the stomach.

            1. Manders*

              Oh yeah, two more years is too long when you’re dealing with all this.

              More food-for-thought questions that might not have clear answers now:
              1) Could you reduce your hours at your current place while keeping your insurance and some of your pay?
              2) Could you reduce your class load to get you through the next year, and then pick it back up when your mental health is no longer at the crisis point?
              3) Is there any way for your boyfriend to bring his graduation date closer? That might include things like asking his parents to help him cover costs so he can drop his current job and devote himself full-time to finishing school as fast as possible.
              4) Once your immediate mental health situation has stabilized, will you still need really good insurance, or can you go to your school’s crappier doctors for prescription refills?
              5) Is your therapist willing to charge you on a sliding scale if you don’t have insurance they can take? If not, are they willing to help you find someone who could work with a less stable financial/insurance situation?
              6) Have you looked at job openings in your area to get a feel for whether you’re really stuck with this company?

        2. Bess*

          Sorry for this situation. In my experience, when a job becomes this big of a stress trigger, it’s hard to go back from that…often because of systemic issues that will never change.

          It’s also tough, because full time work and full time school will take up 150% of your mental energy and brain space even when they’re both going well.

          Time limits have helped me in these situations–something like, “Well, I can probably do this for at least another month because I definitely need the money. In a month I can revisit.” And so on. But…that’s kind of a way to trick yourself into staying in a situation when you already know it’s untenable. And it sounds like you’re pretty far into burnout.

          I have a lot of anxieties about taking on debt (as well as accepting money even from my parents, much less my partner’s), so I get that…but I’d encourage you to consider those as options (even if they’re not as desirable) to preserve your well-being, as a temporary stopgap. Like, it doesn’t sound like you just don’t like your job–even if your job was perfect, this would be very hard, and your job sounds like it’s really wearing you down.

          Beyond that…can you take ANY kind of break or vacation? Something that might help clear your head a little for this decision?

          1. Allypopx*

            This is all very good perspective, thank you (everyone has given great advice – not so much things I haven’t considered, but things it’s super helpful to hear from outside sources. Thank you all).

            I have a short vacation coming up. We shall see.

    2. Ghost Town*

      Manders gave you great things to think about and feedback.
      Do you think you can go like this for another 1-2 years? Does the thought make you cringe or does the end date act as a light at the end of the tunnel?

      My situation: my husband just finished his bachelors degree, after many many many… years of going part-time and working full time. We have an almost 3 year old. I’m working on career-related masters, one class at a time, and working full time. I’m the main breadwinner.

      I don’t have the stress-related health issues, but even in the middle of the seemingly never-ending slog of it all, knowing there was an end-date of X helped me to deal with it.

      Are you and your boyfriend at the same school? If not, any chance that health insurance through his school would be better?

      I’m sorry there’s no good answer for you right now. I hope your treatment works well for you and you are able to make the decision that best for you.

      1. Allypopx*

        Does the thought make you cringe or does the end date act as a light at the end of the tunnel?

        Yeah…. this feels like the big thing right now.

        Then you for your kind thoughts.

  111. Jules the First*

    Went on an interview today as a favour to a recruiter I’ve known for yonks – I wasn’t that excited about the job but I sometimes do these as a favour to recruiters who are having trouble sussing out exactly what their client needs…and I loved them. Great office, great conversation, interesting work. Better yet? They loved me! The recruiter called about an hour after I got home to say that I should expect an offer early next week. I can’t quite believe this is happening!

  112. AnonHere*

    Are dresses with a cardigan professional enough to wear for a job interview? Or should one be wearing a suit or something more formal? I have my degree in library science, but these are assistant-type positions.

    2. Ghost Town*

      Probably not enough for an interview, but enough for the day to day!

      Suit or blazer w/dress or slacks, like Nea said.

    3. Joa*

      It really depends on the place. I’m guessing these are library assistant positions? At the public libraries where I’ve worked, it would depend on the style of dress, but in general that would have been fine for a library assistant position. A suit would have been been overly formal, but that’s not necessarily the case everywhere.

      If it is a public library, try to visit it, observe what staff are wearing, and dress a step or two more formal than that.

  113. Not the Workhorse*

    I’ve made the difficult decision to leave my fifty-shades-of-dysfunctional workplace and go on early retirement. (My health is suffering greatly due to the stress and pressure.) I’ll need to find another job to be able to pay for some kind of health insurance, although for the sake of my health, it would be better if I could take a year or two off to recover. But in any case, I’ve heard the rule about not quitting a job until you have something else lined up. But does that rule really apply to an early retiree in her 60’s who’s just looking for an entry-level, grocery store cashier or flipping-burgers type job?

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      As someone who hires production line workers, I absolutely LOVE hiring retirees, whether they are currently employed or not. I get a number of folks who say that they didn’t realize how bored they would be until after they retired, so they’re looking for an easy, no stress job, so that might be a way to explain it should someone ask.

  114. Ray Gassert*

    Hi, I’m currently employed but deep in interview process elsewhere with 2 firms for mid level management opportunities.

    Firm A is my preferred choice, Firm B my second and my current position is about my 5th choice. Firm A will have an answer for me in about a week. In the meantime, Firm B asked me to come in one more time to talk with the President, again. At 1pm on a Tuesday. I’ve spent about 4 hours in their office, more than 2 of which with the President, already. The office is 35 minutes away and I’m still working in my current role. I politely asked their HR rep if we could answer any further questions via the phone or email, as another mid-day, 2 hour long absence would probably be a little obvious at this point; I still want to do my best at my current position. They eventually replied with “I can have the President call you ‘sometime’ tomorrow, probably in the late morning.” No call came. I deliberately waited until today to ask their HR what happened. She said they got busy but still want to connect next week.

    Did I overplay my hand with them, or did they do me a favor by showing that they’re not considerate of my time or my current employer’s time?

    –As an aside, Firm A has been wonderfully considerate of my time and my current employer’s time; scheduling meetings close by during lunch and even on a Saturday so I wouldn’t be neglecting my current responsibilities. They had a manager drive 50 minutes to me for the last meeting, to make it easier for me.

    Clearly Firm A is my first choice, but my current position is NOT my second choice…..

      1. Ray Gassert*

        Thanks. That was my original thought, but I’m concerned it was confirmation bias on my part because while I prefer Firm A, I don’t want to be left without a chair at the end of the day either.

  115. Rune*

    I’m in a non-profit forum where a debate is heating up over expecting a Cover Letter but not saying one is required on the job application. Poster said applicants should know that a Cover Letter is standard and submit one anyway. I’m of the opinion that if you want something you should ask for it. Never assume that someone wants a cover letter, even though I do agree that submitting one is the norm. However, I submit one when asked (I usually see it phrased as “submit your cover letter and resume by X date). I’ve had a friend removed from selection because she submitted one when the company didn’t ask. They said she couldn’t follow directions.

    What say you guys?

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      If I was applying for a job that didn’t specifically request a cover letter, I would hedge my bets and submit one anyway. (And I think the company that would disqualify someone over submitting an un-requested cover letter is being way nitpicky. If it was for someone sending in an unsolicited portfolio/video introduction/candygram, then yes, but not a cover letter!)

    2. katamia*

      As a teenager, I got “A cover letter is always required” both from my parents and my high school teachers when they went over that sort of thing. For someone like me, it doesn’t need to be said, and I really like cover letters because they give me a chance to advocate for myself and my skills in a way that a resume doesn’t. If I’m emailing my resume in response to a job posting, there is zero chance I’m not adding a cover letter, too.

      But a lot of people didn’t get that lesson growing up, whether it’s because the adults they knew worked in jobs like retail where cover letters aren’t standard or because they came here from another country or for any of 100 other reasons. If you want a cover letter, it’s a kindness to these people (and also a way to increase diversity at your workplace) to just say you want a cover letter if you want it.

      And that company that disqualified someone for putting a cover letter sounds like a place I wouldn’t want to work. I get wanting people to follow directions (I’m of the “disqualify people who call when you say not to call” school of thought), but sheesh. Unless they outright said “Don’t send us a cover letter” or “Send us only your resume and nothing else,” I wouldn’t consider sending a cover letter without being prompted not following directions.

    3. JLK in the ATX*

      I would err on sending one. I’m in non-profit, too and haven’t considered not sending one.

      That nonprofit is tooo nitpicky and probably good thing she didn’t get in with them. They have to lean into the process and understand what the real world of job seeking entails.

    4. H.C.*

      I’m with you, Rune; if you’re de facto requiring it, just add a field in the application process for applicants to attach/submit one.

      But both scenarios RE: cover letter (candidates should know to submit one even when they’re not explicitly asked to, your friend who got selected out for sending a cover letter anyways) are ridiculous.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You should point out to people that assuming people should know these norms means that you’ll be screening out people from less advantaged backgrounds.

      1. Rune*

        Oh, I didn’t have too. Two people jumped on that topic and ran with it in the same thread.

    6. Ghost Town*

      For so many reasons, including what Alison said about screening out people from less advantaged backgrounds (or even just different backgrounds), you should ask for what you want. Resume, cover letter, transcripts, video of applicant doing three somersaults in a row… whatever it is, you should ask for it.

      If you don’t ask for it or say that something is required, it isn’t required and applicants should not be punished for not including it.

    7. Observer*

      Anyone who would remove someone from consideration for submitting a cover letter because it wasn’t asked for is not someone I would want to work for, unless the instruction explicitly stated what they wanted and made it clear that they don’t want a cover letter.

      So if they wrote”We require 2 items: Your resume and a work sample” that might be one thing. But outside of that kind of thing, that’s nuts. Either that or a control freak boss who does not want anyone who ever thinks, and would like to hire an Emelia Bedelia.

  116. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

    I am HR for a small, massively dysfunctional company. The company president (who is pretty regularly involved in the day-to-day of the organization) and the general manager are HUGELY conflict-averse. The company has been in business for years without anyone who has the guts to address performance issues with staff, so consequently there are a fair amount of staff with performance issues. I’ve been here 2 years now, and have created a PIP system, as well as other procedures on handling minor disciplinary issues. It falls to me to write up the PIP plan, or it won’t get done at all, and I’m the one who follows up with the managers to ensure that they are following it and reporting any improvements or continued issues. But inevitably, when we get to the point where goals continue to not be met and consequences should follow, they chicken out! So within a very short amount of time, everyone is quite aware that PIP plans are a joke.
    Once again, we have a serious performance issue with one of our managers, and I’m tempted to just ignore it because, quite frankly, I feel like a complete a** when I present a staff member with a PIP that the entire team knows full well will never be followed. Any suggestions for what I should do? (I’m currently looking for work, but I live in a rural area where professional jobs are few & far between It took me a ridiculously long time to find this job, terrible as it is.)

    1. Pwyll*

      So, a few thoughts. First, you say the managers are conflict-averse. So, what does motivate them to make decisions? Do they respond better in writing? What pressures do they have? Financial? Do they want everyone to think they’re a nice guy? How you address this is going to depend on what will really resonate with them, if anything.

      I worked for a tiny company once with an owner who was also hugely conflict-averse. He also hated formality. He didn’t want an employee handbook, or policies, or really any rules at all. But then he’d get frustrated when people were “late” (but they had no start time), or took too much time off (using our unwritten vacation policy) or didn’t do the job he wanted them to do (even though there were no consequences). And he’d go berserk if pushed into a corner. Ultimately we were able to get him to come around on formal disciplinary systems (and terminations) when 2 things happened: 1) a client cornered him and chewed him out for his (inept) employee missing deadlines for 2 hours in front of half the company, and 2) we promised him that he would not have to be in the room when we disciplined people so long as he didn’t excuse people from the process. We literally would tell him not to come in to the office for the day if we were letting someone go. Not great management, but better than nothing.

      If it’s financial, perhaps providing some way of quantifying how much money employees not performing are actually costing the company.

      Unfortunately, there is also the possibility that this will never change, and you may have to determine whether you can live with that until something else comes along.

  117. LUCYVP*

    What are your various organization’s policies regarding adding an internet search to employment candidates?

    Our HR Manager (who is typically ill-informed and not too bright) claims it is against the law in California – which I know is incorrect – and she has a fit when she finds out a hiring manager used google.

    Just wondering if anyone has policies or practices to share.

    1. Allypopx*

      We do it vigilantly and operate under the assumption anything linked to their gmail is fair game. We’ve seen an interesting array of Youtube videos.

    2. Manders*

      I think anything involving someone’s real name is fair game, but I work in marketing so I’ve accepted that my online presence is always going to be scrutinized. I don’t think I’d worry too much about finding an account someone had tried to make anonymous unless there was something bigoted or threatening out there for everyone to see.

    3. Observer*

      Do be careful though. It’s definitely legal, but you want to make sure that you don’t wind up with relevant information that’s illegal to act on (eg age, ethnicity, etc.)

      What I’ve seen is that one person does the search and then passes on the relevant stuff (eg Lots of boasting about binge drinking, may have a DUI, for a job with driving requirements.)

  118. WritingItAllDown*

    How long does one document uncomfortable/violent speech at work before one takes action? (Note: the violent speech is not a direct threat to harm anyone, but wishes that political figures be assassinated or repeatedly talking about killing animals, including in discussions where someone says they raise such animals or were trying to save a wild one from being harmed.)

    On one hand, there are no threats to report. On another hand, the fascination with death is creepy to say the least, and disturbing in the workplace.

    1. Amtelope*

      I would first try directly asking this person to knock it off, if you haven’t already. I think that’s best first done in the moment: “Hey, it makes me really uncomfortable when you talk about killing animals. Could you please not bring that up to me again?” Then, more generally, if this happens again: “You’ve brought up people being killed/killing animals several times, and these aren’t things I ever want to talk about at work. Could we agree that these subjects are going to be off the table?”

      Then I’d go to the person’s direct supervisor (or to yours): “Hey, Ted keeps telling me about how much he likes to kill unicorns every time I mention my unicorn sanctuary. I’ve asked him to stop, but it keeps happening. He also talks a lot about wanting political figures to be assassinated, which I’m uncomfortable with. Can you help me find a way to shut this down?”

      I think it’s only if it goes past that level that documentation is going to be helpful, if you’re having to escalate to HR or a grandboss who doesn’t know you personally (and, presumably, know Ted and the stuff he talks about). You can keep documenting while you’re doing all of the above, which should give you a record to take to HR if you need to.

    2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      As someone in HR, I’d appreciate having something like that reported to me. Even if someone is not actually making a real threat, talking about killing people/animals is grossly inappropriate for work, to say the very least. Of course, this is assuming it’s not in the context of farming or hunting, as both of those are pretty common in the area where I live.

      1. WritingItAllDown*

        Not hunting, and not really farming. For example: a co-worker was describing how his wife raises chickens for their eggs and how his 6-year-old niece has a favorite chicken that she catches and takes for rides on the swing set.

        Creepy coworker’s contributions — all ignored by the person talking – boiled down to multiple repetitions of “until you kill the chicken and eat it.”

        I mean – yeah, one assumes that coworker’s family *does* eventually eat the chickens, but wow – that was basically trying to turn a story about a playing child into a discussion of slaughtering the playmate.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Report it now. There’s no standard of proof you have to reach before you’re allowed to say this is concerning you. And for all you know, someone else has reported it too, and this will help paint a fuller picture. Report it now.

  119. TotesMaGoats*

    I’m at the 3.5 month mark of NewJob. Still love it. Seeing more of the “that’s totally not how you should do that” stuff but still the people I work with make it more than worthwhile. I was out sick yesterday with a migraine/stomach bug combo from hell. I was on email because it’s end of semester. This morning a random faculty member that asked me how I was. I had no idea who he even was but the genuine care is astounding. Probably because OldJob didn’t care at all.

  120. Johnny T.*

    I am self-employed for the most part but recently went looking for retail sales work for some extra money and to get out more and not spend as much time isolated, alone in my home office. Although I have considerable sales experience (much of which involves selling the same products-services that the stores sell only online) I keep being rejected. Some places will interview me once and then never again regardless of how great the interview goes and others won’t interview me at all. I’m over 35, slightly overweight and it’s been over a decade since I worked for someone else could these things be working against me or could it be something else? Trouble finding work is what lead me to self-employment in the first place now I feel I may be trapped there for life.

    1. katamia*

      Are you applying to large corporations or to smaller stores? Large corporations’ hiring processes for retail can be pretty ridiculous (see: Unicru), and you might have better luck at a smaller store if there are any nearby. A lot of large companies require a lot of schedule flexibility, too, and will give employees very short notice about when they need to come in and work. If you have firm scheduling requirements, then that might have taken you out of the running, too. I was/am in a similar boat (freelancer who’s now working retail on the side), and I never would have been hired at any of the big stores around here.

      1. Johnny T.*

        Mostly larger retailers particularly either electronics retailers or department stores that have specialized electronics departments. I would try some smaller mom and pop type outlets if I could find any. It seems like some of these bigger retailers are the only game in town in a lot of cases.

        1. WellRed*

          There has been so much turmoil in retail even among the giants. They may have cut back on hiring (even if they are advertising).

  121. TL -*

    I’m training a new(ish) person in our group. It’s been 3, almost 4, months and they are struggling. They don’t take notes, don’t retain information, and make excuses. (Well. They’ve stopped with the excuses because my “Seriously?!” face is epic.) I started by asking them to check their notes, or to review their notes; they finally started taking notes but they’re crappy notes.

    I had to have two conversations this week with them – the first, I said, hey you need to take notes, you’re not retaining things, this is a problem. They sent me a protocol they’d written up for me to review, and I corrected and sent it back. I noted that most of the things they missed were the small but important things I expected them to retain by writing down. They responded saying they had previously learned by watching a procedure a few times and then doing it 3-4 times (!!!!!!) until they got it right; they hadn’t taken notes and needed to “adjust to this new way of learning.”

    Cue talk #2, where I much more explicitly said: You are not retaining or learning things. I am telling you the same thing 3-4 times, every time you see or do a protocol. The usual way of learning in our field is see 1, do 1 supervised, do 1 with a support person nearby, but not supervising. You’re getting way more training then normal (see 2-3, do 2-3 supervised, do 2-3 somewhat supervised, still not independent), and you’re not retaining it. This is a huge problem. I don’t have 20 hrs to spend training you on a 2 hour procedure and have you still not be able to do it independently. I don’t trust your results and that is a problem.

    On top of everything else, despite a master’s degree and previous experience, they’re missing very basic knowledge and skills (extremely basic) and I’ve had to spend way more time than expected just getting them to a level where they can do the work. They’re nowhere near having either the technical skills or background knowledge/thinking process to drive their own project.

    I’ve talked to my manager about it but I’m so frustrated. I’m not really sure how else to support them.

    TL;DR: New person in my group is not taking notes or retaining information and I am running out of both time and patience to deal with this.

    1. neverjaunty*

      Three to four months? Taking notes is new to them? Stop throwing good money after bad.

        1. TL -*

          I’ve been working up to that but the person is on a visa and I don’t think anyone has ever even needed to be harshly reprimanded in our group before. (Seriously. Generally a kind “please do this differently” is enough to make us all cringe in sorrow.) He’s also showing very slow improvement but – we’re a fast-paced, high quality work group and I don’t think it’s a good fit for him.
          My manager is in on the loop and supportive. Before I leave in a few weeks, I’ll have a much more serious talk with him. Just working up the nerve here, I guess.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Genuine question: why is this somethjng you have to work up the nerve to do? I get that it isn’t fun….

            1. TL -*

              It’s just not fun and I’m stressed already (international move coming up quite shortly!).
              I really like my manager and it’s going to put him in a tough position. He’s amazing and has been really supportive when I talked to him previously. (Ex: Thank you for talking to him and thank you for telling me. It’s important that I know and this is concerning.) I was hoping things would get better, basically, and they’re not.
              I think it’s worse because our workplace is so good – we so rarely have to have difficult conversations that they feel more ominous against such a lovely backdrop. Sigh.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Keep in mind that the longer you wait, the tougher it may be for him. The earlier he knows what’s up, the easier it’s often to deal with it.

                1. TL -*

                  Yeah. Especially because they can’t be trusted to train my replacement and I haven’t explicitly said that to my manager yet – I’ve voiced a lot of concerns separately but I’ve been hoping to not need a more big picture talk.

                  Thanks, Alison and neverjaunty. It’s on the docket for next week. (And a big general thanks, Alison – I’ve need to draw on AAM wisdom a lot as I’ve trained them and I’ll be using it to talk to my manager, too.)

  122. Ramona Flowers*

    Please tell me about times you’ve been clumsy at work.

    Because today I tripped and spilled coffee in my coworker’s bag (luckily missed everything important and she actually found it funny).

    And when I said goodbye to a departing coworker whose leaving drinks I can’t make, she hugged me and I wasn’t quite expecting it and kind of fell forward so I was leaning on her…

    1. Allypopx*

      The phrase “I’d worry about your home life if I didn’t see what you were like at work” has been thrown at me in response to an odd bruise or injury here or there. I’m definitely known as a klutz.

      I just lean into it, find the humor. You’re not alone!

    2. Amber Rose*

      A month or two into starting this job, my supervisor handed me a sign for my cube. It says, “I’m not clumsy. It’s just that the floor hates me, the tables and chairs are bullies, and the wall gets in the way.” I still have it up. :D

      You are not alone. But for a specific example, I was replacing the hand towel roll in the ladies’ bathroom, and managed to give myself a golf ball sized goose egg by clocking myself on the corner of the holder thing. Had a headache all day.

      1. SophieChotek*

        As long as you found the supervisor’s sign humorous — ! I admit I found it rather funny.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Oh yeah, it’s all in good fun. I think it’s hilarious. My coworkers like to tease me about how accident prone I am, because I’m the safety officer.

    3. strawberries and raspberries*

      In my first few weeks in my Manager role here, I:
      1) Slipped on a slick floor and practically did a split
      2) Tried to close a window and slammed my wrist on the windowsill (I’m amazed it didn’t fracture)
      3) Fell on my ass on the floor when my rolling chair slid out from under me
      4) Knocked my shoulder out of joint doing God knows what and had to pop in back in
      5) Just today, practically impaled myself on a key sticking out of a file cabinet

      My team doesn’t believe me that I’m not actually like this all the time.

    4. Manders*

      I was cleaning out the back room a few weeks ago, and my coworkers kept running in to see if I was alright because they heard crashing noises. I dropped a whole lot of boxes and stumbled into every shelf in the room.

      When I was in college, I slipped down some stairs, slammed my butt into the edge of a stair, and let out a blasphemous stream of curses… before realizing that my mild-mannered religious studies professor was right behind me.

    5. Jan Levinson*

      I’m with ya!

      I grab a dixie cup of water to drink every morning and refill it throughout the day, and generally spill my water 2-3 times a week. You’d think I’d learn to bring a water bottle with a lid, or sit my water somewhere where I won’t knock it over. :)

      1. EddieSherbert*

        This is my coworker who sits next to me :)

        We joke about it a lot (though I’m genuinely not sure how he hasn’t murdered his computer!).

      3. Mainly lurking*

        While I was waiting in the reception area for an interview, I grabbed a cup of water from the machine and sat down to read through my notes. When one of the interview panel arrived, I stood up to greet him, and knocked over the cup of water on the coffee table. I assumed I’d ruined my chances, but I got the job, perhaps because I reminded them of Kalinda (the person I was replacing), who was NOTORIOUS for knocking things over. In fact, at a speech at Kalinda’s leaving do, her line manager (the guy who had collected me for the interview) said she ought to have a plug hole in her desk!

    6. overeducated*

      A couple weeks ago at a big quarterly meeting, during a formal presentation, I knocked over my metal travel mug while reaching for my notes. We had just returned from a tea/coffee break so it had some tea in it still. It made a noise, it spilled, and people in rows behind and in front of me looked back. I was one of the most junior people in the room. So THAT was embarrassing.

      Then a week or two later I fumbled and dropped my cup in my office. Fortunately it was empty but one of my coworkers commented on it being “just like at the meeting!” Embarrassing AND memorable…that’s not what I want to be known for!

    7. Karo*

      I once managed to pull a (thankfully short) filing cabinet onto myself with the heel of my shoes, while also falling out of a chair.

    8. Temperance*

      Just this week, while on the phone with my boss’s husband, I managed to drop the receiver AND punch myself in the face. That was awesome.

    9. Effie*

      I worked for a small business, and my first day was training with the business owner in her office. She had a ton of shelves over her desk and while I was reaching up for a binder, knocked the tea that she’d bought me earlier that day all over her desk, soaking everything except for (luckily!) her Macbook. I was so embarrassed and she was so kind about it, saying that she always had drinks on her desk and occasionally wondered if one would ever be knocked over. Such a class act!

      I interned at a nonprofit right after graduating from college, and the last day of my internship we had a leaving do and we were all dressed up. I was wearing heels. We were going around hugging each other and as I went to hug one of my closest coworkers I lost my balance and almost ended up kissing her. It was a close one!

    10. Pwyll*

      Pre-coffee me apparently can’t hold things. I can’t tell you how many coffee carafes I’ve shattered by dropping them. Or coffee mugs. Or pretty much anything. I once broke 2 coffee pots in the same week.

      I also once ended a phone call with my Boss’ Boss with “Okay, thanks, I love you.” And then I crawled under my desk and died.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I have a friend whose phone rang while she was internet slacking and she absent mindedly answered it by saying: “hello Facebook.”

        And yes, I am still saying it to her years later!

    11. Elizabeth West*

      –Upended an entire bottle of water in my lap at my workstation. My coworkers watched this happen.
      –Gave myself a nosebleed while on warfarin (I bumped my nose with my hand while trying to flip my hair out of the way). Super gross.
      –Walked into work one morning at OldExJob, stepped on a wet leaf that was on the tile floor outside my supervisor’s office, and crashed to my knees. She thought I was hurt and at first didn’t believe met that I wasn’t; I was so used to falling while skating that it didn’t even phase me.

      But the worst one was when this very very very attractive vendor came in to talk with Bob, our marketing guy at OldExjob. He was French and so cute I could barely talk to him. Bob asked me to bring him something and when I did, I knocked over a cup of coffee that was on his desk and it ran all over everything. Hot French Guy looked at me like I was about four years old. Not my finest moment. >_<

    12. N.J.*

      I dropped my English muffin all over the floor today. Most days it’s coffee or pop. A few weeks ago I banged my arm on the toilet paper dispenser in the bathroom stall. You are not alone there are a lot of us clutters out there.

    13. WellRed*

      Late to the party: I did deliveries as part of my job at a print copy shop. I was coming back with a box with reams of paper, got my hiking boots caught on each other and took a full on headet across the sidewalk, paper reams flying everywhere. I looked up to see the horrified face of my boss and the customer he was helping staring at me. Because our front room was all glass so they saw the whole thing.

    14. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Tripped on the edge of a carpet, almost landed on my face but managed to pop back up (according to my coworkers it was a magnificent save). Next day I was diagnosed with whiplash at Urgent Care.

    15. So Very Anonymous*

      New faculty orientation involved food at our seats, which were those student desks with the desks attached to the seat at a slight angle. We each had to stand up and introduce ourselves. I’m short. I stood up to introduce myself and my soda instantly slid down the desk and spilled all over my dress and all over the chair. People remembered me…

    16. Ismis*

      I was throwing a piece of chocolate to a coworker. It bounced off the top of his monitor and hit him in the face! I was about 2 weeks into a new job.

    17. Tilly*

      I was getting into a fleet vehicle to attend a women in STEM careers event with a coffee cup, no lid. (To this day, I have no idea why I thought this was a good idea.) I proceeded to spill on the woman next to me as I was scooching, all over her beautiful, pry expensive, green pants. Not only did I feel terrible, she was the key speaker at the event as an industry-expert engineer. UGH.

  123. Lily Rowan*

    A couple of weeks ago, on the thread about the D/s jewelry situation, I made a comment about an unusual bracelet my boss wears every day. This week I found out it’s her fitbit! Hahaha! It really is a cool and unusual one, for sure.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Oh, that’s funny! That thread definitely did make me curious about the jewelry I see people wearing everyday ;)

  124. Anonymous Educator*

    This isn’t a big deal, but it’s slightly annoying.

    I’m in IT at an organization, and I work with three other people. They have all been technical people since forever. There were officially trained in it and have always had an interest in all things technical. I was an English major and somehow stumbled into this career.

    To a certain degree, we have different specialities (one network person, one hardware person, one software person, one director), but we are also expected to be generalists, too… so if someone shows up and needs help with really… anything, we’re expected to help. I love helping, but there are some things I just don’t know anything about. I’m very good at my specialty, and I can do a few things outside of it. Some of the stuff is way beyond me (especially certain A/V-related things or nitty-gritty hardware stuff that goes beyond just replacing a drive or RAM).

    Anyone else had a similar-type situation in which 95% of your job you’re excellent at but 5% of the stuff you have to do that really shouldn’t be part of your job… you kind of suck at… and really have no interest in learning?

    For what it’s worth, my manager thinks I’m doing an excellent job and never has any complaints about me during yearly evaluations. It’s just there are weird awkward moments when someone is like “Can you do this?” and I have to be like “No, but so-and-so can.”

  125. Anon Accountant*

    I’m so frustrated with my job search. Last week I was so excited because a recruiter contacted me about a position and just called and told me the “position is on hold due to internal changes”. The other 2 recent places that were interested was a company that showed serious red flags when talking to them. Another was a nonprofit that told me they routinely run out of cash 4-6 MONTHS before their fiscal funding cycle resets/government funding is available. It would be the problem of the controller, position I interviewed for, to find ways to keep cash flowing during that time.

    So literally the only places that are interested are places I don’t want and places I want aren’t hiring me.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I feel for you. The only thing that’s opened up around me lately is something I’m sure I wouldn’t ever take. Lower pay and much bigger corporation. So here’s to hoping something good opens up soon!

  126. Lemon Zinger*

    Yesterday while I was on the phone with a student, I got an IM from my coworker. She corrected something she thought I said wrong. Because she only heard my half of the conversation, she had no idea what we were actually talking about. I have worked here much longer than she has.

    Am I wrong to think this was rude? We work in cubicles so we can overhear what others say on the phone.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      Yeah, that’s super rude. My supervisor does something similar to me every so often, and it drives me insane. She’ll hear half a conversation that I’m having on the phone from her office, come to my desk while I’m still on the phone, saying “no, no, no, you need to tell them blah blah blah.” Then, I have to put the customer on hold, tell her, “no, they’re not asking about x, they’re asking about y,” only for her to laugh and say “Oh. Yeah, you’re right, then, sorry.”

    3. Delta Delta*

      Ooh. Rude. I had a similar situation once when I worked in a retail shop and had a conversation with a customer by phone. Manager was nearby and could hear my end but not what the other person was asking. When I was done she told me I had mis-quoted a price because I included shipping. I then had to explain that the customer was looking for the overall total price. after lots of back and forth she finally understood and said something like, “oh, you handled that perfectly.” Yeah, I did, but now it’s 20 years later and I still obviously remember this ridiculous conversation. Trust that your co-workers know what they’re doing!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Please say you told her that was not what you were talking about. Ideally, say, “If I need help I will ask.”

      Some people do this compulsively and only marginally are aware that they are correcting someone. Not saying this makes it right. My point is that by speaking up it can be a shock to them and going forward they will have a higher awareness of what they are doing.

  127. Elisabeth*

    Months ago, I volunteered to chair a regular phone meeting I attend if the chairperson ever needed to take time off. I completely forgot I had done that until she called me last week and asked me to chair the next meeting. It was terrifying. I’m always very nervous talking on the phone and nervous talking in front of groups. I’ve been wanting to move up in the company, however, so I figured that I should probably get used to it. I think I was almost shaking more after the meeting than before it, and I ended up having to take a walk afterwards due to having so much nervous energy, but I did it! Stumbled a bit at first, but I think I did okay overall.

  128. PipSqueak*

    I’m being put on a performance improvement plan for lack of “judgment” even though 1) this is a subjective thing and 2) my boss doesn’t believe in objective standards and 3) WTF is “judgment” really? It just means reading my boss’s mind. The areas where we have disagreed are seriously just matters of opinion.

    I think *she* needs to be on a PIP! And maybe group therapy so someone else can tell her how crazy-making she is.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      So … to be fair, lack of judgment can be a serious issue. It’s certainly possible that in this particular case it really just means “read your boss’s mind,” but judgment in general can be a serious performance concern. It’s also possible that she legitimately needs someone whose judgment is more aligned with hers, because that’s what will lead to the type of work she needs from the role.

      Obviously I have very few details so she could be totally off-base, but you sound like you’re taking issue with something that’s actually a pretty reasonable thing in a lot of contexts.

      1. PipSqueak*

        I’ve been working here for several years without any complaints about judgment. I did one thing that ticked off her boss and now I’m in trouble even though I had already done everything I was supposed to do after that (it was 6 months ago).

        At least there will have to be some accountability on her part now. A PIP goes both ways.

        1. Colette*

          This sounds like you think that your manager will get in some sort of trouble if she doesn’t abide by the PIP? That’s not likely.

          And if you ticked off your boss’s boss, that’s two levels of management who have concerns about your judgement. Sure, you didn’t have complaints until recently, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have concerns before the incident that set this off.

          I’d suggest taking this very seriously and believing that you need to change how you approach things – and, if you don’t think you can/are willing to do that, making a significant effort to find another job.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I’m on the other side of this right now because I have an employee who has really, really poor judgement and has made a number of mistakes that shouldn’t have happened. It IS subjective, but it’s also important. I think almost any job is going to have many subjective components – unless you’re operating a widget-making crank on an assembly line, there are subjective elements.

      I don’t know the specific details, but I’d either take this very, very seriously (ask her for specifics!) or start looking for a new job, because frankly in a lot of cases a PIP is just a manager’s CYA move as he/she prepares to terminate you.

      1. PipSqueak*

        I did ask for specifics, and I disagree. Where I work, admitting to being wrong is a sign of weakness so it’s kind of a Catch-22. Fortunately the PIP is short and I think I can keep my head down.

  129. Just Want a Personal Day (or Week) for Fun*

    I feel like I’ve put myself in a spot that I need to get out of. I’m a team lead for a group of 3. The company has a policy that someone from the group must always be in the office during work hours, barring emergencies. We get 2 weeks personal leave per year. The other 2 members blow through their leave like candy, and often end up taking leave without pay.

    As the lead, I’ve always felt the need to “be here”, because I never know which random morning I will get a call from one (and sometimes both) saying “I can’t come in today”. There are tell-tale dates that I know when to expect this, like the day after Jane’s birthday, she always calls in sick. Or, John has a habit on calling in sick every 3 to 4 Mondays or so. There’s other scheduled days when I know John will be consistently out, but I still feel the need to be here because I don’t feel I can always rely on Jane. They both also happen to like to pair scheduled days off with unscheduled days off. Like John says he’s taking a day on Wednesday, but throws in Monday and Tuesday to go with it. Or most recently Jane scheduled a personal day, and then took off the day after because she was just too tired from whatever she did on the personal day.

    I’ve brought up the frequency of their absences to management before but was told to generally ignore it because they are hourly and only hurting themselves. However, I realized that I’m only taking (on average) 8 out of 10 personal days per year, whereas they are burning through 10 days paid, plus another 10 each without pay.

    Now I’m at the point where I just want vacation.

    How do I deal with this?

    1. Xarcady*

      Schedule a vacation. Let John and Jane know the dates. Take the vacation. If you want to be super careful, do not schedule your vacation for any time that you know one of them is likely to be out–the day after Jane’s birthday, for example.

      If anything happens while you are on vacation, it will not be your fault, but the problem of John and Jane. This is on them, if one or both of them chooses to stay home during your vacation. I suspect that they won’t pull this sort of thing, because they will know you aren’t there to cover the department.

      If anyone says anything to you, you can point out that you have mentioned J&J’s frequent leave-taking several times, and were told to ignore it. So you did.

    2. TCO*

      Have you discussed your lack of vacation with your manager? Have you actually tried to take vacation days and been told no because your team calls out last-minute? It’s not clear whether your manager is really aware of your challenge in taking time off or if this is an issue you’ve imposed upon yourself because you assume it’s your duty.

      Here’s what I would do: I’d go to my manager and give several weeks’ notice that I’m planning to take X days off. I’d explain that I will be booking travel arrangements and will not be able to cancel my plans or come in unexpectedly. Ask for her support in making this vacation happen. Let your coworkers know about your travel plans… and then take your vacation. Let the chips fall where they may while you’re gone. Not your issue–these people don’t even really report to you.

    3. Fictional Butt*

      Since you need at least 1 person in the office every day, can you create a coverage schedule so it’s not always defaulting to you? It sounds like you’ve assumed responsibility for making sure the office is occupied by showing up every day yourself, but you shouldn’t have to be solely responsible for that.

    4. not my usual alias*

      What will happen if you’re on vacation and one of them calls out? Will you be called to come in? Or will they be expected to show up, since they know coverage is required and you aren’t there?

      In fact, are you sure they aren’t reliable enough to show up if they know you’re gone? Maybe they’re so casual about their attendance because they know it’s covered. Maybe they can be trusted to show up in your absence. Has this been tested?

    5. Just Want a Personal Day (or Week) for Fun*

      Thanks to all of you. I realize a lot of this is just about me standing up for myself and scheduling a day.

      On past scheduled days, at least one, if not usually both, do show up.

      Sometimes I just want a personal day without a schedule, and feel that I can never do that. One morning I was running half an hour late and texted my boss to let him. His response was that I could only be late if I was assured that Jane was in the office.

      1. nhb*

        I’m sorry, but that last sentence made me laugh out loud. What did he expect you to do?

  130. Asking for a friend*

    Anyone have experience negotiating a severance package? What did you ask for and what did you get?

  131. Intrepid*

    ​​Any advice on training up?

    I’m moving into a new role where I’ll be the most experienced Teapot Exhibitor… on the 2-person team. My new boss was a Teapot Artisan before this, and I feel lucky to work with and for him– he has a lot of substantive knowledge that’ll be super useful.

    But he’s completely new to teapot exhibitions. Some of the logistical details aren’t things he should be spending time on anyway, but even if I DO the work, I want him to know what it is. He’s expressed interest in this, but I also know that there are a lot of things in my job that should work one way in a perfect world, but just don’t in this one.

    Here’s the thing: I’m leaving a team where I just had to do the same thing for 2 people at his level, and it went horribly. Mostly this was because those 2 are willfully incompetent, but. I really need to succeed here.

    How do you get senior-level people to listen to unpopular, that’s-never-going-to-be-that-easy messages?​ He’s new to the field and so probably going to make some rookie mistakes, but he’s also my senior– he has maybe 15-20 years of experience, and I have about 2-5. Help?

      1. Intrepid*

        I think I’m really training up, at least to an extent. No, he doesn’t need to know how to polish a teapot before an exhibition– but he’ll be planning exhibitions, so he needs to know that those comprise of X number of components, including teapot polishing, which take Y hours under ideal circumstances and Z if we kill ourselves.

    2. nhb*

      At the beginning, I would say something along the lines of “I realize that you are very experienced in [field], but that I am going to be providing you with some specifics about [area of expertise]. I’m not entirely sure how much of this you may already know, so if I’m going over something you’re already familiar with, please let me know!” Otherwise, I would just train the way you normally would. I would explain the time frames for the main tasks, with as much detail as you can, including time frames.

  132. Anxa*

    Last week I had an interview and turned down the job offer. The interview as on the same day I had to let my current boss know my summer schedule, the job was FT instead of PT (it was advertised as PT) in not commutable by bus.

    I have another interview for the same position next week, but in my own county. Some things have changed since my last interview, some which make this job more attractive now, and some which make it less attractive:
    +I learned my summer hours at current job may not be the same after the fiscal year changes, so the potential extra money I’d make could be more significant.
    +I could get to this job by bus much more easily/cheaply, AND it’s more friendly to car sharing with my SO
    +I wouldn’t have to be so rushed in deciding and may have time to consider negotiating a higher wage
    -I would be working out in the field in some pretty high-crime neighborhoods
    -One of the dangers of the job includes increased exposure to arboviruses and my SO just got sick with one, which kind of changes that risk from an occupational hazard to something more personal
    -Since this is FT, it offers health insurance, but I’d have to pay part of the premium. This is embarrassing, but I’m currently on Medicaid, so it means I’ll have better access to care, but it would cost me more. I don’t think I can keep Medicaid and take this job. Between the premiums, taxes, and start up costs for the new job, I may not be making any more money at this FT job than I do now, and may actually make less.

    I have another one on Friday, for another low-wage, full-time, short-term job. The Friday job is in a completely different sub-field and would likely be less physically demanding, safer, have better hours, and be with the type of government department I may want to work in, but has a longer commute, a trickier bus schedule, is in another county, and has less autonomy.

    Both of these jobs are seasonal, so I’m certain they will want to get someone started ASAP (especially the Tuesday interview one, as they are in a race against nature).

    Do you think it’s unreasonable to interview knowing you may not take the job AND knowing you may not get back to them for 3 days? I don’t have to worry too much about bird-in-the-hand because I like my current job, the hourly wage is better, and if I’m STILL not in a FT job next spring can always try again next year.

    Any suggestions for scripts? I don’t know that I want to reference directly that I’m looking at other jobs (it’s all with the state, though, so they might know). I could reference wanting to hear back from my current boss or waiting to figure out how well the hours work for me (they aren’t typical).

    1. nhb*

      I don’t have much in the way of advice for you, since I feel like it’ll ultimately come down to what offer(s) you may receive. I do think it’s reasonable for you to interview if there’s a chance you’ll want the job; my understanding is it’s only inconsiderate to other candidates and the interviewers if you KNOW you won’t take the job…after all, they may not hire you, but it wouldn’t be wasting your time to interview with them, would it? I don’t feel like a 3 day wait is extreme in any sense, but I don’t know your field. I work in my state’s government, and a 3 day turnaround for just about anything seems miraculous here :) If they make an offer, though, I’d let them know that you’ll need a few days to figure things out. I feel like at that point, it would be reasonable to ask for additional information on the job’s benefits, so that you can weigh them into your decision-making. I do not think it would be a wise decision to take a job where you’d have private insurance, but would ultimately be making less than you are currently. Of course, YMMV.

      I especially wanted to note that you have no reason to be embarrassed about your health insurance. It’s available for people who need it. Best of luck to you. Please update when you can, letting us know how things worked out!

      1. Anxa*

        You’re right. I do remember being absolutely mortified to have my income validated by HR in my last job, but then I was like…um, this is the organization that is dead set against letting your class of workers work full-time hours.

        I guess it feels like a weird thing to discuss before accepting the offer, but it absolutely is a going to be a factor in my accepting it. Aside from the increase in premiums, I have other reasons not to want to shuttle to and from a new insurer for just a few months.

        The last job made me an offer a few minutes after I left the interview, so I’m assuming that would be a possibility. But these are contract positions, not full-fledged state jobs, with an immediate need to fill. But at this point it’s been almost a month since I applied so I shouldn’t feel too bad for taking an extra few days.

    2. Ribbon*

      I’m not sure if the jobs you are considering are both public sector or not, but if you are concerned about medical insurance costs, in my experience working for government agencies means that while the pay is sometimes low, the benefits are usually very good. For example, my first job with a county government I paid $0 of my premium and now that I work for the state it works out to 1% of the cost ($9 per month). I did and do have co-pays, of course, but you may be able to find the benefit information publicly to do some research before making a decision.

      1. Anxa*

        I’d be a contract worker, so I would have to pay at least 25%. I’ve never had employer based healthcare though, so I’m thinking there’s no such thing as cost sharing for copays and such. It’s also probably a job that starts at FT then goes to PT.

        I have been looking at the benefit handbook, but they offer like 5 different plans. It’s also kind of frustrating because you can’t look at the insurance stuff without seeing all these other goodies that I never think about because I know that I’m not really at that level yet for stuff like 401K and paid sick days.

  133. NoMoreFirstTimeCommenter*

    Job application question! I sent my cover letter and CV to a “teapot” company for an admin position that doesn’t seem to directly involve technical work with the “teapots”. Pretty much immediately after e-mailing the application, I got a reply – a writing assignment! Now I’m supposed to write about how I use “teapots” in my everyday life and include photos of these situations. This isn’t an impossible task, I wasn’t aware of where exactly “teapots” are used, but after finding it out I see there are a number of things I could write about. The photo taking part is harder, but all in all creating the required 1 page document is doable for unemployed me – not so sure about someone who’s highly busy though. However, when I replied to their reply and asked when the document needs to be ready, the answer to that revealed that they want it before they start reading the applications. That means, they send this assignment to every single applicant and it’s not a sign that I’ve passed some kind of first round. It’s annoying to put so much time and effort to something when I don’t know if they’d even consider me based on my CV. Any thoughts on this? Is this normal, or a giant red flag, or something in between?

    1. Emilitron*

      It almost sounds like they’re trying to collect fodder for their blog, or some other web presence where they’ve got reviews or community interactions. i.e. call it a job application but really it’s a cheap content-generation scheme. If that’s pretty obviously not the case (from the context of what you’re writing) then I’ll just say they’re just being kind of weird. If you submit it, pick a few recognizable phrases and do a google search (for “phrase words in quotes” and company name) every couple of weeks for the next few months, the way college professors do when they’re checking for plagiarism. Of course, once you’ve submitted it to them it’s probably legally theirs, quite possible they’ve played games wording things so they have a right to do this, but I’d still want to know even if I wasn’t going to call a lawyer.

  134. Thanks For All The Fish*

    I am a mere handful of days being free from from my dysfunctional organization. The joy that wells up in my heart when I say this is beautiful and glorious.

    The last challenge before I leave is a face-to-face exit interview with my boss, who runs the organization. Does anybody have any scripts you’ve recommended or used to Matrix-bullet-dodge questions that you could not give an honest answer to? Boss will take any honest answers about dissatisfactions, suggestions for improvement, and etc. as a personal insult, and I’d like to escape unscathed. I’ve read some past posts and a few other websites, but there hasn’t been an abundance of concrete examples of verbal evasion to use in the heat of the moment.

    So close to freedom, so close…

    1. Perfect Tommy*

      I’ve been through this once, but it was 22 years ago, so it is hard to remember what I said. I think I stuck to answers like, “Nothing comes to mind.” with an added shoulder shrug. I was so happy to be leaving, I just kept my thoughts on the good stuff ahead.

    2. neverjaunty*

      “I’m not sure any answer I could give would be satisfactory.” Said with a vague, beatific smile.

    3. IowaGirl*

      Do you really have to do the exit interview? I just refused when asked by ex-ToxicBoss.

    4. The Foreign Octopus*

      I had this same issue when I left my last job. I was really, deeply unhappy there and the straw that broke the camel’s back was my box spending 40 minutes with me to plan my day into 15-minute increments where he wanted to know exactly what I would be working on that day (he also did this with the other members of staff). I felt like I was five years old and did not appreciate it. Particularly as he had never done it before, nor given any indication that he was unhappy with my time management. I made the decision to quit that day, giving a month’s notice.

      Full disclosure, this is the only exit interview I’ve had any experience with. Prior to ex-job, I had only ever worked in retail and it’s sort of accepted that when you leave it’s because you’ve found something better. I did the same as you and scoured the internet for help (unfortunately I hadn’t found AAM then).

      My ex-boss sounds a lot like yours – sensitive to perceived insults – which was a problem as there were serious elements of dissatisfcation that led me to quit. Elimination of resources, micromanagement, daily work-lunch meetings that we weren’t paid for, morning meetings that wasted time and were repetitive, bonus payout issues, reach out approaches that were uncomfortable and border line inappropriate (I worked recruitment for a very small company – think four monkeys and then the organ grinder). And I wanted to get these points across to him because I liked my colleagues and wanted them to benefit from my exit interview.

      Unlike you, I didn’t have to escape unscathed as I won’t ever need a reference from him (I’ve moved countries and am now in a complete different field) but I also hate, hate, hate confrontation. Not all of my verbal acrobatics worked and I ended up down some cul-de-sacs that I wish I hadn’t gone down but some of the following worked for me.

      Boss: “What made you decide to leave?”
      Me: “I decided that I really need more flexibility in my schedule to fit with my personal life goals.”

      (By drawing the attention away from the work environment and making it about my personal life took away some of the sting.)

      Boss: “What do you think can be improved at Teapots Inc.?”
      Me: “One thing that I found difficult to make work was the decision to no longer subscribe to TeapotJobCandidates.com and GenericJobBoard.com and to only use WellKnownProfessionalNetworking.com for our candidates. I personally felt that it made my job a lot harder to find diverse candidates.”

      (I recommend using the word ‘personally’ as it draws everything back to you.)

      Boss: “Was there anything that you were dissatisfied with?”
      Me: Overall I have been very happy here, and I’ve learnt a lot from you and Sansa, Jon, Dany, and Cersei. If I have to choose one thing though, it would probably be the close management of my time that has been required of me. I’m not used to that and I didn’t find it very productive overall in my results.

      (Begin with a generic compliment and then don’t dump every issue that you had with the place. I chose micromanagement because it was a huge issue amongst my colleagues and it had stuck in my craw as being the last piece of the collapsing Jenga tower that was that job.)

      Generic Verbal Evasions could also be:

      . I’m looking for a new challenge/I decided I needed more flexibility than this role offered/I really enjoy doing X but this role is looking for Y and so I wanted a better fit…

      . I want to work for a smaller/larger organisation for more specific/broader experience…

      . I really like this company’s [insert good point about company here i.e. training programmes, diverse/interesting projects].

      . I find [insert something you had problems with at company here] a little difficult to understand/deal with but I understand that some/most people like that.

      . Working with my manager was [insert good thing here if possible]/productive/educational/interesting [but be prepared to explain why].

      . I don’t feel that I’m in a position to advise what my manager could do to improve her skills because I’m not familiar with all aspects of her role.

      If in doubt with a question, go very generic. I think it’s unlikely that they’ll press too hard on your reasons behind leaving. If you’re in a larger organisation then this is just a formality to tick some boxes but if it’s a smaller organisation like mine was then you might need to be a bit more linguistically prepared.

      Saying that, I do recommend being politely honest. An exit interview is a great opportunity to speak honestly about the things that caused you to leave. I wish that I’d had more courage in mine to tell the truth completely, particularly as I’m not reliant on a reference from ex-boss. It would have helped my colleagues out and I would have felt better about it all. However, you also know your workplace best and if it as crazy as the word dysfunctional implies then stay generic, stay polite, and get the hell out of there!

      Good luck with your new job!!!

      1. Thanks For All The Fish*

        Thanks everyone, and particularly Foreign Octopus for taking the time to reply! I’m in a very small organization, so I’m not expecting it to be possible to decline, and I am one person in a string of people who have left–basically 100% turnover. If TPTB wanted to change something, they would have by now. :-( Hence, the sample dialogue is very, very helpful.

  135. Newish Lawyer*

    Resume Question: I graduated from law school 3 years ago and have had a pretty consistent string of temporary and contract positions since then (3 different positions lasting anywhere from 8 months to over a year, two of which have had some overlap). With that in mind, do you think it is better to list the internships I did while in school by the term in which I did them or the dates which I did them (for example Fall 2013 Term or August-December 2013)? Listing them by term calls attention to the fact that they were student positions but it also tones done a resume that has a job hoppy look (even if I’m not actually job hoppy).

    1. LK*

      Not everyone knows how long Fall 2013 term was, so I would list dates for clarity. You could also list your position as: Clerk, Law Library…………..Aug-Dec 2013 (Fall Semester). so that both are evident. I would do this…. they know how long you worked there and they can see that you finished your contract as opposed to bouncing after 3mo.

  136. Karyn*

    I just need to air a grievance.

    Why is it that all law firms want you to have 1-5 years of experience, but no one will hire you to GET that experience? I’ve been a paralegal for seven years and am now taking the bar exam (five years after I graduated, long story), and every attorney position I see wants experience… this seems to be a vicious cycle!

    Also, the bar exam sucks as much as everyone thinks it does, and I find myself wishing I’d just gone for my master’s in political science and worked in government. For anyone thinking of going to law school, please please please rethink it. If I can save but one soul…

    Grievance aired!

    1. Manders*

      From my lawyer friends, it sounds like there’s a clear expected career path where you either get recruited to a firm while you’re still in school or you spend a year or more clerking for a judge. I think it may just be a really hard to get back on that path if you haven’t done those things.

      Which sucks! I’m really glad I didn’t go to law school.

      1. Karyn*

        It’s so. so. SO. irritating. My mother just said screw it and started her own firm, which sounds terrifying to me, but she made it work. It helps that she works at home and has no overhead, though. I could ostensibly work for her for a year and at least that way I’d have a “lawyer job” on my resume. That’s the one nice thing about the legal world – it’s so common to have family firms that no one bats an eye at it.

    2. Delta Delta*

      I’d apply anyway. I’m a lawyer with a bucketload of experience, and I can tell you I’d definitely be interested in interviewing you (alas, I just started my own solo firm after many years with a firm so I’m not in a position to hire anyone). You are likely incredibly organized (not all lawyers are. trust me), and probably have a greater maturity level than some brand new lawyers fresh out of law school. Also, consider broadening your search. Some firms may say they want 1-5 years so someone can step directly in to files and start working without so much oversight. Although, I’d say someone even with 1-3 years is still pretty new to being a lawyer. Have you looked at small firms and/or solos looking to take on a new person? Have you looked at government positions?

      1. neverjaunty*

        Agree completely with this – as an experienced paralegal you HAVE experience in the legal field! Certainly be honest about your work history, but you are not in the same boat as someone who never had a legal job.

      2. LQ*

        I’m seconding government positions. They are a good way to get experience. I know we hire and get an assortment: just out of law school, worked elsewhere and ready to have a baby/family time (we have so many pregnant lawyers here right now!), burned out and ready for a 9-5 kind of job, and I’m ready to take an easier career as I get ready for retirement.

      3. Karyn*

        I am trying SO HARD to get a government job. I would basically kill for that (probably not a good idea, though, as an attorney, hehe). I live in Cleveland, and the market here is not booming. Unfortunately, moving to Columbus is not an option at the moment, and that seems to be where all the jobs are. I may have a lead on a solo where I’ve been doing paralegal work on a contract basis, but the problem is that I don’t think he can pay me a regular salary. I could take the clients I wanted, but it is hard to make money doing what I ultimately want to do (attorney discipline and ethics).

        I’m glad to know that I should apply for the positions that require a year of experience or a little more. I think right now I’m just in a crappy position because I haven’t actually taken the bar yet. Maybe it’ll be easier to get interviews AFTER I take it (even before I pass it). I actually threw into my cover letter recently that I have seven years’ experience in several areas of law (IP, personal injury, secured transactions/contracts, multi-district litigation, domestic relations, and some criminal), so maybe that’ll make me more appealing.

        My mother is a bankruptcy and foreclosure defense attorney and is just ITCHING to teach me those areas; I may have to take her up on it. BK apparently is actually big right now, and you’re guaranteed to get paid by the Court. It’s all just so frustrating.

      4. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Agree about applying regardless – if a firm says they want 1 to 3 years years experience, then they are expecting a junior associate. The difference between 1 year of experience and just-passed-the-bar is negligible, and as you have been working as a paralegal, you do have a grasp on plenty of the logistics of legal work (i.e., how to file things, which, actually, plenty of junior associates are clueless about). So a small-ish firm could be a good option even if they say they want a little experience.

        If you’re desperate, there’s also always the contract attorney (as in, document review) route if you just need to get your bills paid, and every so often, a really reliable and solid doc review attorney will get hired on as a staff attorney at a larger firm.

    3. Naruto*

      They also don’t want you to have too much experience! It sucks!

      That said, it will be easier to get interviews after you take the bar. A lot of firms hire for an immediate need. 1 year of experience is not much more than zero, but the ability to start right away is important.

  137. Bored and Confused*

    I came across a weird situation during an interview and I was wondering how other people might have handled it.

    I have been applying and interviewing for retail jobs (because my degree is useless at the moment) and I had one interview that blew me away in the worst way possible. The interview was at a mid-level shoe store in the local mall. After working in a high end shoe shop I figured it couldn’t be that different, but, oh, was I wrong. I showed up to the store about 5 minutes early and let the employee on the floor know. I was told that the manager was in another interview at the moment and I should just look around while I waited. After 10 minutes of looking around and talking to the very nice employee the manager showed up and hustled me to a set of chairs out in the general mall area. We sat down and the interview began.

    The manager started by asking for a copy of my resume, which I gave her, then before even glancing at it she asked me “Is there a reason you felt that you didn’t need to wear makeup today?” I was taken aback as I have never had that be the opener for an interview before. I came up with the best answer I could by explaining that I didn’t often wear a full face of makeup as I have sensitive skin. She nodded, looked at my resume, and then started to ask me why I had worn the outfit I did; why was I so covered up? why wasn’t I wearing shorts? why did I pick a blue shirt? I was getting offended at this point because she had torn apart my fashion choices but not said a word about my work style or experience. She then noticed that I had gone to university and began to ask me about that; why was I not working in my field? why did I choose that major if I couldn’t get a job? how did I plan to survive with a major like that? etc. It was so out of line that I could not even speak after a while. I made myself keep a straight neutral face and get through the interview. At the end I shook her hand and said that I didn’t think this was the job for me and thanked her for he time anyway.

    I handled it the best that I could (and walked some angry laps around the mall afterwards to calm down a bit), but I’m curious how would you have handled it?

    1. Delta Delta*

      Sounds like you handled the situation perfectly. After the makeup question I probably would have walked out but other than that I can’t imagine having done anything differently.

      1. Bored and Confused*

        If I wasn’t so shocked I think I would have walked out! I think there was also a part of my brain that wanted to see how far this person would go.

    2. Rincat*

      Wow. That is just terrible! That was so condescending! I mean, even in positions where they want the employees to wear makeup or dress a certain way, she didn’t have to say it like that! And then talking about your degree!

      I think you handled it the most polite way you could, although you can have cut her off short and said, thanks but not for me, and left. No use in trying to not burn a bridge. But it can be hard to have the presence to pull that off in the moment.

      I had an interview like this once – the woman was nice at first and then she tore me to shreds for no reason. I should have left the minute she started insulting me but I was in shock. But I left politely, and then cried in my car.

      P.S. I very rarely wear makeup anymore – and then, only eye makeup, I can’t wear foundation or anything on my skin because it’s so sensitive – and I just landed a great job. I didn’t wear any makeup to the several interviews I had an no one batted an eye.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      You handled it beautifully! I never could have been that polite to such a rude interviewer. Well done! You dodged a bullet– that woman is not a good person, and I’m sure she is a terrible manager.

    4. SophieChotek*

      I agree with the others – I think you dodged a bullet! And I hate it when people rip on one’s degrees — like we haven’t tried to get jobs in our field! Hope you find something else soon!

    6. Hrovitnir*

      Wow. I have no idea how I would have handled it, as I’m pretty conflict averse: my response would have either been to lose my ability to be engaging and just try to get through it or snap and tell her I cannot believe she thinks this is appropriate and leave. Probably not as professionally as I’d like.

      I think you were well within your rights to leave but you also handled it really well. That sounds incredibly unpleasant!

  138. AnonMarketer*

    Hey, this is an update!

    I was the person who posted a number of weeks ago I was dealing with suicidal depression and was fearing for my job/having boss troubles. I had my monthly 1:1 with my boss yesterday and it went much smoother—her personality seemed to do a 180 (and seemed a bit intimidated by me). I’m not sure whether this was because the COO came and pulled her aside after I spoke to her or what, but I’m grateful as it feels like my job isn’t on the line anymore—which is nice. She still seems to be reluctant to talk about me having a career path or upward growth in the company, but that is something I’m hashing out with help of HR since there’s no reason I shouldn’t have that as a goal.

    Re: the depression: I went back on my meds, and while I’ve lost an obscene amount of weight (to the point where my nails have been splitting), I feel a bit calmer and more level-headed; maybe even less evil? The suicidal thoughts are still there, but they’ve been…dimmed, so to speak (ergo, nothing overly vivid or strong—enough for me to just handwave it as a minor annoyance and just living with that mental problem overall). HR has said that co-workers have had nothing but good things to report about me, so kind of an odd roadblock I stumbled across, but it seems the worst, for now, is over.

    5. Hrovitnir*

      I’m glad your job is safer and the meds are helping. I hope it’s all up from here!

  139. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Our company has a Project Manager who’s ineffective at his best and incompetent at his worst. I am currently having to work closely with him to onboard a very large, very important new client, and I’m about ready to scream. Not only does he expect me to do certain things that are absolutely his responsibility (and hoo boy to I push back every time – while I’m perfectly capable of it, I’m not doing PM work for the hourly peanuts wage I make), but every time I mention something that he’s missed or misunderstood, he acts totally surprised that I have measurable brain activity.

    The kicker on Wednesday was that we were in a meeting and I politely corrected some misinformation he relayed from a conference call we’d had earlier in the week that I was part of. He looked at me with what I can only describe as wonder or awe, and said “Wow, you’re really smart, aren’t you?” My eyes nearly bulged out of my head, and my Grandboss just stared at him and said, “Yes, she is very smart. That’s why she’s being assigned this account, she’s one of our best.”

    I’m a very high performer and it’s not like he doesn’t know me , or my previous work and reputation. I just don’t get it, and I’m afraid by the time this client is onboarded I’m going to require bail money.

    1. Swimmergurl*

      That’s the worst. Just keep up the good work, keep representing yourself well, and trying to get the best possible outcomes for the clients. What goes around comes around, and this guy will, well, get what’s coming to him eventually. :)

  140. Help*

    I’m having problems at work- from the day I started, my colleague refused to train me, refuses to listen to me, insults me, gives me dirty looks and yells at me. She finds enjoyment in seeing me fail. She leaves important things out when she does train. Now she and another colleague have joined forces and they make fun of me and leave me out of things. When I’m out sick and come back, they ignore me. I’m nothing but nice to them and it still doesn’t matter- they still bully.

    I have no idea where to go for help now, I have no allies. Why do bullies thrive in places like this? Why do they do this to me? Any help?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Have you said anything to your manager? That’s where to go when you’re having trouble getting your work done.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Please document, document, document and speak to your manager. This is not okay behavior and they need to know about it. I’m sorry you are going through this.

    3. Pwyll*

      You should definitely speak to your manager about this, and be prepared to have some examples where they have left out information you need to do your job.

      Depending on the type of work you do, one thing you should start doing is sending e-mails to your coworkers to confirm what they’ve told you. So, if she gives you an assignment, you send her an e-mail that says, “Just to make sure we’re on the same page, you asked me to do x, y, z and to reference 1,2,3. Please let me know if this is accurate.” If something is missing, and she doesn’t correct it, you have a paper trail that you attempted to be thorough.

      Bullies tend to only be bullies until they face consequences for their actions. If they’re leaving you out of things or giving you wrong information, you can turn this around by documenting what they DID tell you so it can be used as proof.

    4. PipSqueak*

      Put everything in email so you have a paper trail and proof of things being deliberately left out of your instructions.

      As for the personal part, there probably isn’t much you can do, but you can CYA for performance-related issues. You shouldn’t be set up to fail by a colleague!

  141. Jennifer Thneed*

    Geez, it’s only 10:20am (Pacific) and there’s already over 650 comments here.

    Okay, I need an atta-girl, because I had a really good phone interview on Tuesday, and there won’t be an in-person interview because remote manager, and I totally CHOKED and still haven’t sent a thank-you note.

    I’m sitting at my job-hunt desk about to compose the email I really wish I had sent 48 hours ago. I have mixed feelings about the job, which probably added to the choke, but still. I can do it and I’d enjoy it, it’s just a long commute and an industry that I don’t love. Here I go.

    1. Perfect Tommy*

      Only 48 hours? That’s not too bad. Sure, it’s nice to get it done immediately, but don’t worry so much. Go get ’em!

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        Tommy, you are very perfect.

        Thank you for this. It really did help to see it so quickly. (Argh, I *hate* how much this whole process shakes my confidence.)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      48 hours is fine. It’s way better than the too-fast ones (like a half hour after the interview, where it just feels perfunctory).

      1. Jennifer Writes About Thneeds*

        Alison, thank you for this reassurance. I was worrying because the manager (who is building a new team) wants to make a decision by the middle of next week. I knew she had at least 2 more interviews after me.

        My goal was to send it 24 hours later. I have now sent that puppy, twice! (Once to the hiring manager, but I had to guess at her email address based on the HR person’s address structure; and once to that same HR person to forward on, in case I guessed wrong.)

        And! I have two good questions to ask her about the team, and she explicitly invited me to call her with questions. I’m going to call her in about an hour, in the hope that she’s seen my email by then.

  142. Swimmergurl*

    Hey, I just need to vent. I was fired from my job at the end of October, and my employer is trying to get my unemployment claim denied by saying that I was fired for engaging in a shouting match with an executive. At my unemployment hearing this week, the only witness to this alleged shouting match was someone in an office across the hall, and the witness admitted the executive’s voice sounded louder, that she couldn’t hear what was being said because of a data center at the back of her office, and that she didn’t hear the whole argument, because she closed her door for a conference call. The executive didn’t appear or testify at all. The company admitted they didn’t confront me about the incident before firing me. I’ll get the written decision in a week or so.

    In a lot of ways, I’m relieved that I don’t work there anymore! Things can only get better.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Wow…hope they decide for you. Sounds like it was the executive shouting at you!

  143. AnonForThis*

    Is there a good way to inquire about benefits early on in an interview process? I’m looking at applying for new jobs because, while I’m paid ok, the high deductible policy is killing me. So if the new job has a high deductible plan as the only option I won’t be interested. But I know my current job was very cagey and didn’t really want to talk benefits until after I was hired, other than saying that they offered them (and I’m in the low-wage sector where a lot of people think you should be grateful you get benefits at all).

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I ask for benefits insurance information after I’ve been contacted for an in-person interview, but after the phone interview. Usually, there’s a packet of paper work they either give me at the interview or are happy to send me when I ask. I have a pre-existing condition, so I have to know the details.

      I’ve never had anyone balk at this.

      I think asking before you got an interview offer would be a little odd.

  144. Lolly Scrambler*

    I am incredibly triggered by job interviews due to childhood abuse. I have issues with being asked questions and thinking on my feet as I spent 18 years trying to come up with the right answers to questions to avoid getting hit and often failing. My mother also always told me I had no confidence and would never get anywhere in life because I couldn’t talk myself into a job and I have had years of therapy trying to reduce the effect of it but it isn’t working because I have failed at job interviews consistently for 8 years now. My workplace is abusive and I need to get out but haven’t been able to do so I have tried following AMA’s advice and practising lots of stories and answers but I normally get asked something I wasn’t prepared for and stumbling for one questions, for example this week I went to an interview and they asked me for a time when I persuaded a manager to change a policy, and I had only prepared a time when I had disagreed with a manager about a policy (but ended up compromising). I asked for interview feedback and they replied saying that I was lacking in energy and enthusiasm and they were very concerned that I didn’t engage with them at all. (They did say I clearly had a lot of experience and answered some questions well).

    Going to interviews is very difficult for me but I have tried to believe that despite not being a natural interviewee I can try to overcome this through practice but now I am wondering if that’s really possible. I have a hard enough time answering the questions and I don’t know how I can fake the kind of extrovert bubbly personality interviewers are looking for. I have failed so many interviews (21 now) that I can’t ever imagine myself being successful therefore trying to have enthusiasm about the job just seems like a cruel joke so I don’t know how to do it. Everyone says “just act!” but I had to fake a whole personality growing up to deal with having a personality disordered parent and it is also triggering. I know I won’t get the right job by faking but I can’t get a job by being myself.

    1. Lolly Scrambler*

      I am wondering if I can ask for interview adjustments on the basis of having mental health issues? Has anyone had any success with this?

      1. Swimmergurl*

        Maybe you should think about working somewhere, where your mental health background would be considered an asset and could help others. Also it sounds like maybe you’re just not good at interacting with people and thinking on your feet, which is okay. Lots of people don’t have those strengths. But perhaps, you should think about applying for positions and companies that would capitalize more on your other strengths.

        Good luck! I hope it works out. I’m cheering for you. :)

      2. Temperance*

        I really do not recommend this course of action. If you are asking for a different interview, you might be triggering unconscious or conscious bias in the recruiter. You also might be signaling that you can’t handle stress, which isn’t good for an interviewer.

        I’m also a child abuse survivor. I recommend therapy to get past this. My mother would do something similar, asking questions that only had the right answer in her head (“what color is the sky” and if you said “blue” she would say you were a know-it-all). I still have issues wrt authority, but I don’t out myself. I grew up with a borderline mom, so .. I get it.

        1. Lolly Scrambler*

          Thanks Temperance – I will avoid the adjustments. I’ve had many years of therapy but unfortunately it hasn’t helped with the interview phobia, do you think there is any type that would work! I’ve had person centred and EMDR most recently.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Something like DBT (dialectical behaviour therapy) could be helpful for learning some tools and techniques to get through interviews. DBT is an adapted form of CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) and it can help with things like interpersonal skills and coping with distressing feelings.

            Interview coaching might also be an idea – if you can find a good life coach this is something they could help with. A coach in my industry helped me hugely with my confidence. I’d got a new job, but my own difficulties – some of which also stemmed from abuse – were destroying my confidence and I was convinced all my new colleagues would hate me.

            I work for a mental health charity and we would be happy to make reasonable adjustments, like letting you take short breaks during the interview or extending the time so you had longer to answer. Unfortunately, while you may be entitled to ask for adjustments (over here it’s a legal requirement to make these if needed) the reality is that many people do indeed have bias. This should not be the case, but sadly it is. And that’s not fair. Ask-and-answer interviews do not serve all personality types, even before you factor in disability. Which is so very very unfair.

            I don’t think you’re in the UK but if you are, you might find it helpful to contact Remploy. They have a joint scheme with Access to Work that provides support for people with mental health problems who need support at work which can include a mentor. Also, as an abuse survivor I have found the charity NAPAC helpful. I’m not sure this is relevant, but just in case.

            Lastly, it may help to practise what to do, over and over so it becomes a habit, when you get a question that makes you panic. Stop, breathe, repeat the question back and say you need to think, then remind yourself it is okay and you are allowed thinking time. And if you don’t have an example (I know I wouldn’t for the question you mentioned) talk them through what you would do in that situation. Remind yourself “there is no right answer, they just want to get to know me”.

            I wish you the best of luck.

            1. Lolly Scrambler*

              I read about radical acceptance and that was really useful so I should look into DBT.

              I am in the UK and did have a Remploy support worker for a while but mine was not very helpful although that was just the individual. I also had a Mind support worker who got made redundant. I will look into NAPAC for sure.

              Occupational health at work suggested adjustments at interview to me but I requested them once for an internal interview and they said no as “everyone gets nervous at interview” so that put me off trying anywhere external – as you say bias is real. I feel like I am confident in other public speaking situations but I don’t think interviewers believe you can just be nervous and need help in interviews.

              Thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful advice and I hope to have some good news some day!

    2. neverjaunty*

      You don’t have to be a bubbly extrovert! And it’s okay to be nervous. That’s very common for people interviewing for jobs.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I honestly like candidates more when they’re nervous :) I find it endearing, especially because it reminds me of myself. Plus it makes me think they really care about getting the job!

        1. Lolly Scrambler*

          I have also hired nervous candidates Katie the Fed! But I feel like I must be some freakish next level of nerves or something to never get hired.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      You don’t have to be fake. I’ve hired people because they felt ‘real’ and their true personalities were there.

      First off, the fact that you have had 21 interviews is a huge victory. That means you are getting interviews. Getting interviews is super hard, so I would pat yourself on the back about that.

      Next, if you are still seeing a therapist, I would talk to her about this. Have her role-play scenarios with you where you have to answer questions you don’t know are coming. A big part of this is knowing there are not magical “right” answers in interviews. If you are not seeing a therapist, perhaps a good friend could help. I have practiced many an interview with a good friend.

      Good luck and keep your chin up. There’s nothing so demoralizing as job hunting, but there is hope. You will find something eventually.

      1. Lolly Scrambler*

        Thanks, AnotherLibrarian. I don’t have a therapist right now but if I go back to therapy I will try role playing or failing that I will have to record myself or something. I hope you are right about me finding something eventually and thanks again.

    4. Thlayli*

      I’m sorry to hear about that it must have been awful for you.

      I wonder if looking at it from a different angle would help. Perhaps something like toastmasters or some interview coaching would be helpful with this specific issue?

      1. Lolly Scrambler*

        Thanks Thlayli. I’ve had interview coaching 3 times but maybe I can find a better interview coach.

  145. Zathras*

    Thoughts on how (and how much) to brush up on things you’re not super familiar with for technical interviews?

    Former Coworker reached out to me about an opening at his current workplace thinking I would be a good fit. It seemed like it might be interesting so I applied. I’ve had a couple of phone interviews, including one technical screen that I thought I bombed, but I guess I must have gotten some points for being open about what I did and didn’t know, because they want to do another one. Former Coworker sent a list of potential questions this time so I can prepare. But a few of them deal with topics I know very little about.

    My instinct is that it might be good to put in a little time reading the Wikipedia page (or equivalent) on the topics of those questions, just be familiar with some basics in a high level way. Not so much to prepare a canned answer, but to be familiar with the basics and able to respond intelligently about what I do and don’t know in that area. If I thought my answer might be deceptive I would probably add something like “that’s my understanding, but I actually don’t have a whole lot of experience in X, just what I’ve picked up in passing.”

    I’m definitely not interested in tricking this place into offering me a job I’m not qualified for. But because I switched fields, there are a number of things I do at my current job that I don’t have the traditional background for. There’s been a lot of on-the-job learning focused toward the specifics of what I needed to know to get things done. So it happens at times that I won’t know the answer to what people with traditional backgrounds would consider a really basic screening question, but I still have some good knowledge/experience in that area.

    1. Zathras*

      Oops, I appear to have replied up here somehow, instead of starting a new thread.

      Although, I have that pet peeve too.

    2. Channel Z*

      I hadn’t been working for 8 years when I got my current job. Trying to refresh my memory on everything technical was too overwhelming. So I used a targeted approach and looked up articles they had published recently and the technical details that would be relevant to those specific analyses. I nailed the interview and got the offer the next day.

    3. twig*

      I coordinate search committees for the IT department at a university. One of the steps of our interview process is the technical interview. I don’t know if this will be the case for what you’re interviewing for, but we don’t expect ANYONE to know all of the answers to the technical interview.

      The purpose of this interview, for us, is to get an idea of the breadth & depth of the candidates knowledge. Also, we look at how candidates reply when they don’t know the answer: Do they try to BS their way through? Do they admit what they don’t know and try to work out the answer based on what they do know? How would they go about finding the answer if they don’t know?

      My recommendation would be to try to brush up on the areas where you know your knowledge is lacking, but mostly to know where to find resources to supplement your knowledge and be open about what you do and don’t know.

  146. VermiciousKnit*

    So I’m sure there’s posts about this, but how does one go about selling oneself to a job where you’d be absolutely great at it, but your past experience doesn’t exactly line up with their specified qualifications? I am well-suited with one, but another they want teaching and curriculum development in a school, but all the teaching I’ve done has been in performing arts institutions and museums (the job is in a museum). I’ve also worked in school districts and our state education department, so I feel confident in my ability to develop the programs involved, but I need to spin my actual job background a bit.

    1. Casper Lives*

      I think I’m doing something similar. I’ve got experience in a niche legal field, and am trying to sell myself to different specialties. I address it directly in the cover letter: “While my previous work has been in XXX, I strongly desire to work in YYY.” Then I write a short paragraph discussing why I’m a good fit and what skills cross over.

  147. Teapot Writer*

    I’m looking for some advice on getting published clips outside of the specialty of my past position.

    I was the editor of a chocolate teapot website for eight years and was laid off a few months ago. My college degree is in chocolate teapot design. Frankly, building chocolate teapots is my primary hobby and interest, but there aren’t a lot of job openings in that world and I’d kind of like some work/leisure separation anyway. I’ve been applying for editorial/communications/writing-instensive marketing roles in non-teapot-related industries, but all my published clips are related to teapots and I’m sure it’s hurting my chances.

    I’m sure my abilities in researching, interviewing, and putting words about teapots together will translate just fine into writing about other topics, but I haven’t had the chance to prove it. Any advice on landing freelance writing gigs outside of one’s specialty? Or even finding unpaid opportunities to get assignments? I know I could start a blog and write about whatever I want, but it seems to me that to get quality clips, it would be helpful to be able to land quality interviews, which is easier when I can say, “I’m working on an article for The Legit Publication,” instead of, “I’d like to interview you for a post on justtryintogetclips dot wordpress dot com.”

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Just get pitching. You might find the media bistro ‘how to pitch’ series helpful.

    2. WellRed*

      I work for a very niche publication. No one ever has experience covering our topics. We care that you can write, provide published clips, etc. We will train you in our industry and our style. So, not sure what you’re applying for but I don’t think your lack of experience in writing about a certain thing is the issue.

      1. WellRed*

        Oh, and I don’t care about your personal blog posts. Hang in there. It’s a tough area to break into.

  148. EddieSherbert*

    Anyone else super struggling to focus today?

    We have Monday off for Memorial Day and I’ll be gone the rest of next week on vacation with a couple friends! No clue how I’m going to get everything done today with how unfocused I am. Ahhhh, I’m excited! I haven’t used any vacation days since Christmas :)

  149. the_scientist*

    I interviewed for an internal position (a promotion) yesterday, and the interview sent up a few yellow flags. It’s a small, new team, about a year old, and flag #1- the person who was in the position previously was let go for performance issues. However, they assure me that they now have a lot more clarity about what is required for the position. BUT, at the same time, they are also saying that the role may evolve substantially in the next year. Another yellow flag was that they previously advertised the position internally and externally, and didn’t find a qualified candidate- they said they had a lot of candidates, but no one who was quite right for the job. Based on my impression from the interview, they are looking for two very specific (and very different, in fact almost diametrically opposed) skill sets in one person. I am very confident in my abilities for one skill set, but not so much for the other.

    If I’m asked back for a second interview or am offered the position, what sorts of questions should I ask to get a better understanding of the role? It sounds like a really interesting opportunity, but I would only take it if I am sure to be spending at least 60% of my time on the area that I am a strong performer in. I’m happy in my current role and won’t make a move until I’m fully confident that it’s a good choice for me.

    1. TL -*

      Ask what kind of training they can provide, especially for the skill set you’re not solid in. If they’re vague or just telling you that so-and-so left really good notes, that’s a huge red flag.
      Where do they see the project going and in what time frame? (I’m assuming it’s a project-based department, based on your username)
      Who’s driving the project and what sort of autonomy would you have in deciding what your workflow looks like? (Answers like: there’s always room for someone to develop their own project! are a huge red flag.)
      Do they have benchmarks and metrics for the project, and if so, what are they?
      If the role is evolving, what do they see it evolving as? Why is the role evolving? Is the project evolving too? Lots of scientists say things like, “Oh there’s room for growth!” or “there’s a lot of room for you to drive your project!” but what they really mean, “I don’t care what you do as long as you get all of your work done without bothering me, don’t spend too much money, and don’t make a fuss.”

      Is there any way you can get a look at the qualifications of other people in the department? Are they specialists in what they’re doing? Are they willing to train and are they willing to invest in people that have the right knowledge to drive the project forward? That is: if they only hire for exactly the skills they need, they’re probably not willing to train. If they don’t have anyone who is a specialist, they have a culture problem and are having trouble attracting/retaining the right talent (and can’t train you anyways).

  150. Anon Accountant*

    I’m frustrated with my job search. The places I’m interested in aren’t hiring me and the places I don’t want are interested.

    Just heard back from a recruiter that a position I was very interested in isn’t moving forward due to “internal changes”. There are 2 places that interviewed me that I definitely don’t want that are really interested in me. The 1 company raised a lot of red flags in their interview and seem like a place to avoid. The other is a non-profit that told me they have a funding shortfall EVERY YEAR where there’s a 4-6 month gap between when they receive their funding from the state and when the last check comes in. So the organization has for 4-6 MONTHS only cash going out and none coming in.

    It would be the accountant’s problem to stretch the funds and to “make magic happen” to find them funding for those several month’s gap. And this crap happens every year per their executive director.

    Why can’t I find a decent place to actually hire me and why is it always crappy jobs that are so interested? Sorry for the complaints but I’m so frustrated.

    1. Candace and Toni*

      Not sure if this makes you feel any better, but I’m in the same boat. I’ve been looking for over a year and half and nothing’s worked out. Sometimes I want to scream, throw things, and give up. I’ve definitely taken short periods of time off not applying anywhere and just taking a break b/c looking for a new job is a job in itself! In the end, I keep telling myself not to give up and not to take anything I’m wary about, otherwise, I’ll be back at the job searching drawing board and doing this horrible process all too soon.

      Keep venting! Don’t let the internal pressure build up or else you’ll randomly explode :)

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Me too. I’ve taken breaks from applying because it really is like having another (non-paying) job. It’s true though when you just take a job you are concerned about. You can easily wind up searching all over again.

        I definitely agree better to vent than to explode. :)

    2. Anon Accountant*

      Ahhh! Sorry about the double post from above earlier this afternoon!

      I’d tried posting but then didn’t see my post so I retyped.

  151. Seren*

    So I am job searching internally and have a question about PTO usage. Do I use as much PTO as possible now, before NewJob so that I can go 6 months without using it, or will that make me look like a slacker? Our PTO is use it or lose it by the end of the calendar year.

    1. The Foreign Octopus*

      I’m always of the opinion that you should use PTO, especially if it’s use it or lose it. Maybe don’t take it all at once but why not turn a weekend into a long one here and there? Take a day off in the middle of the week and recharge your batteries. Everyone deserves me time and if you’re planning on starting a new job soon then it’s best to be refreshed and ready to go for it. Your colleagues will definitely understand.

    2. Seren*

      I’m that way too, I’m just stuck on whether I try to use it all before I start NewJob or not, and whether the 6 month before using rule applies for internal jobs. Personally, I like the optics of being at a new job 6 months with no time off. Conversely, using all my PTO in OldJob possibly looks/is bad, although it maybe necessary for interviews and such. Does that sound right?

      1. The Foreign Octopus*

        I get where you’re coming from and I agree that starting a new job requires a commitment of no days off for a while. It really depends on how much PTO you have left. If it’s a large amount then maybe it will look bad but a small or normal size, I’d say you’ve got nothing to worry about if you take it.

  152. LadyKelvin*

    The Feds in our office get to leave 2 hours early today for the holiday. I get in way earlier than normal people so we haven’t gotten guidance on whether or not the contractors get to leave early too. Fingers crossed I get to go home at 1 instead of 3! I could really use the extra time this weekend because I’m about to leave for a 2-week meeting in Taiwan and the day after I get back my husband leaves for 2 weeks for work as well. A few extra hours together would definitely be nice.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Our contractors don’t get off early when the employees get off early. I think it would trigger a ton of IG issues.

      1. LadyKelvin*

        I’m not technically a contractor but I’m a state employee working at/for a fed office, so we might be different. But my husband is a contractor and he gets off early if their office gets off early. I’m pretty sure its up to the individual companies if they want to give their workers an early release.

  153. Concerned*

    I’ve been in my first full-time role for a year and a half now with a small company. In the interview, it was made clear to me that I was intended to replace my manager, who works as a part-time contractor. Although the initial six months or so were busy, I now struggle to stay productive with how little I have to do. My manager often travels for work or is otherwise not in the office, so training and direct supervision are minimal. I have reached out to help others in order to remain useful, but none of these tasks are of much use to my career development (i.e. getting the CEO’s lunch every day, even though I’m not in an admin role).

    I’m happy to help in any way I can, but I’m starting to feel like the promises of a career trajectory here were not really thought through. I’ve asked to shadow my manager many times to learn more about what it takes to perform his role, but there’s never any traction with that. He insists that I’m important to the team and how happy he is that I’m here, but the fact remains that I generally can get away with spending several hours a day on AAM because of how minimal my workload is.

    Most elements of my job – the pay, commute, benefits, rarely more than 40 hours a week – are great. There are some culture issues here that I’ve managed to navigate, but the main issue I have is that I doubt there’s enough work for me to stay in the long-term. That said, I’m getting married and taking a two week honeymoon in a few months, so leaving now doesn’t seem like the wisest decision.

    Am I looking a gift horse in the mouth, or do I have legitimate concerns about my lack of work and development? If the latter, would it behoove me to at least wait until my two year anniversary (or later) to negate job-hopper perceptions? I had one full-time internship after graduating, so this is technically my second post-college role.

  154. Jen RO*

    I had my annual performance review this week and he said that, in his opinion, the highlight of the year is the improvement in my management skills. I had to give credit to Alison, so: thank you for writing such a compelling column, that kept me reading years before I even considered the possibility of being a manager! Frequent commenters may remember that I was utterly and completely against the idea of managing anyone, ever… and here I am, not doing such a bad job. I swear that without this site I would be a complete failure – I am a non-confrontational person who would simply ignore all the problems and hope they go away. Thanks to you, Alison, for making me not suck!

  155. Petsitter*

    If you were hiring someone to take care of your pets, what would you expect their dress code to be like?

    I am debating the appropriateness of wearing khaki shorts when meeting new clients.

    1. Rincat*

      I don’t think I would care as long as they were nice khaki shorts – no stains or holes or anything, or super short. Is your area typically casual and you see lots of people in shorts? I’m a pretty casual dresser though and wish the world would be more casual with me.

      However, you can’t go wrong with nice dark jeans or chino pants.

    2. KR*

      I think that’s appropriate!! People who have pets (unless you have super posh clients) know about pet hair, drool, dog walking, ect. You can’t do that stuff in a suit. I think khaki shorts as opposed to denim or athletic shorts give you a touch more professionalism. Can you pair it with a polo or a custom t-shirt to give you a polished look?

      1. Zinnia*

        If I’m hiring a pet sitter, I’m expecting practical clothing that may or may not show signs of pet care that has occurred earlier in the day. Unless you obviously smell like poop or have offensive saying on your t-shirt, I think you’ll be fine. A logo T would be quite professional with nearly any bottoms.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          100%. Any time I’ve had to hire a sitter/walker or left my dog at a doggie day care or something like that, the folks are always wearing casual clothing that may or may not be dirty/battered depending on what else has happened to them that day with other animals. I anticipate that these folks are gonna be wearing something that is practical for a potentially dirty job.

    3. katamia*

      I think it would be weird/inappropriate to dress up too much for a petsitting job. Khaki shorts would probably be fine if they’re in good condition, but if you’re really worried about it I like Rincat’s idea of going with dark jeans or chinos.

    4. Jennifer Thneed*

      I hired a pet sitter recently! I was very glad that she was dressed in clothes that she could sit on the floor in comfortably. I wouldn’t trust a pet-sitter who was dressed too nicely to get cat-hair on their clothes, even for a first meeting. Because I want to watch the sitter interact with my cats! And (shh!) they shed.

      I agree with the others. Shorts seems perfectly reasonable. Wear what you’d wear on the job.

    5. Anono-me*

      If I were looking to hire a petsitter, one of the most critical aspects of the interview would be the person’s interaction with my pet. Accordingly, I would expect nice practical clothes. Kaki shorts sound fine to me.

      FYI: some knowledge about my breed of pet, animal 1st aid training, strong character references (personal or professional) and a good back up plan are the other important criteria.

      Good luck

    6. LCL*

      Truthfully I would prefer to see long casual pants, jeans would be OK, even warmups. But I have a big dog, and if one has to lift/move a big dog pants will keep you from getting scratched up. I would also worry about you falling and skinning your knees if your job was to walk him. He’s not a puller but big dogs have a way of tripping people. It’s also not a million degrees where I live and you wouldn’t stick out wearing pants. I would expect in places such as Texas long pants would just be bizarre.

    7. The OG Anonsie*

      I don’t expect anything other than that they shouldn’t look so well dressed that they aren’t ready to have an animal on them.

  156. Butch Cassidy*

    What do you say when you’re asked “Where do you see yourself in 5 (10, whatever) years?” when your goal is to get out of the corporate world altogether and work in something more freelance and/or spiritual, like a death doula* or a priest?

    *WaPo article about this job here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/dying-is-hard-death-doulas-want-to-help-make-it-easier/2016/07/22/53d80f5c-24f7-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.3011c6572495

    1. Not Karen*

      Something vague that could describe a number of jobs like “in a position where I’m making valuable contributions to the company’s mission” or “collaborating with imaginative people” etc.

      1. SometimesALurker*

        I agree — it would take some spin, but not dishonesty, to pick things you would like about your chosen future field (or one of the ones you’re considering) that also can apply in your current field. Of course, these may sound super-vague, so you might preface it with something like, “My goals for 10 years from now aren’t focused on a particular role in the workplace, but on X” (where X is something like what Not Karen suggested).

    2. The Foreign Octopus*

      Eugh. I hate this question with a passion.

      I like Not Karen’s idea of something vague that describes just about anything. Just don’t do what I did when I was asked that question. I panicked, it was my first in-person interview after graduating, and I was asked “Where do you see yourself in 5 years?” I was honest and replied “somewhere hot and sunny, writing a book.”

      Surprisingly, I was still offered the job.

      Even more surprisingly, two years later, I am somewhere hot and sunny and writing a book, which probably just highlights that I was never cut out of the office life.

      But good luck with your plans!

  157. Not me*

    I approached my job my boss about a promotion about a week ago. It wouldn’t be a huge promotion, but it would be a step in the right direction that I’d like to take in my career.

    Since then, we’ve had a ton of changes at work from a new computer system, a new general manager, a lot of job openings, just a lot of things going on. So I know that this particular promotion is not high on my boss’s priority list.

    In short, how long until I should follow up again with her about this?

  158. LNZ*

    Me and my superviser just interviewed someone who would be a peer for me. And she def wasn’t wearing a bra. The rest of her clothing was on the casual side busness formal (one of those up scale rompers and a cardigan), but the lack of bra was super obvious once i noticed it.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Eh…I don’t see a problem with that. As long as there were two layers of fabric (which I think is a rule I picked up from here), I don’t think a bra is always necessary. I mean…I’ve seen men’s nipples really clearly through flimsy dress and under shirts, but I’ve never heard of anyone complaining about men’s lack of coverage. And bras aren’t always comfortable/patriarchy/choose your reason that a woman might not wear one.

      1. LNZ*

        oh it wasnt a nippe thing, though i wasnt exactly staring i dont think i could see them. it was jsut really obvious and suprising

    2. Channel Z*

      When I was super skinny, I couldn’t find a bra small enough to fit, and stick on censor tape didn’t really work either, so I suppose I could have been in a position of going bra-less to an interview. Likewise, some women get so tender they can’t wear one temporarily. I guess I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

      1. LNZ*

        Yeah no, she is still the best canidate and i specifically didnt tell anyone cause i dind’t want it to cause anyone to think negativly of her or make them not want to hire her.
        It was just…odd. I’d never been in that situation before.

    3. Red Reader*

      I think I’m more weirded out at the idea that a romper is business casual than the lack of bra, myself. Heh.

      1. LNZ*

        I think its a new style thing. I’ve been seeing them more and more. It was very casual side of business casual (it also has a small rip in the hem but it’s possible she legit didn’t know it was there)

        1. The Inventor of Post Its*

          Is it possible you could examine the interviewees less closely? These are very detailed observations you’re making, and it ended up with you being uncomfortable. Maybe in future interviews you could look more at your notes, job description document, or just the eyes and face of the candidate to avoid seeing something that would unnerve you (and avoid unnerving the candidate who is already in a nervewracking situation–don’t have strong reason to believe this was the case, just that you mentioned some very specific details and guessed the candidate might not have known it herself).

          1. LNZ*

            That’s making some pretty big assumptions about me and my behavior.
            Literally everything i noticed i noticed at a glance, cause it was that obvious (the inch or so long rip was plainly seen to someone sitting across from her but i could see her not noticing it while wearing the outfit, which was why i was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt). Also noticing someone not dressed in the most office appropriate cloths is kind of part of any interview, you take in their appearance and perceived professionalism.
            And I actually didn’t have anything to officially do at the interview, i was just there because i would be working very closely together and my boss just wanted to know if we would get on together. Which we did get on very well in fact, and my office plans to make her an offer.

            1. WellRed*

              Honestly, i would have been surprised too, but tried to assume there was an actual reason for it. You handled this fine.

          2. TL -*

            Some of us are just super observant people!
            But seriously, some people pick up details a lot more quickly than other people – I notice things faster and in more detail than my roommate, even if we spend the same amount of time looking at things. I don’t think it’s fair to hold that against me – there’s not much I can do about it. Part of it is because I do photography, I think; I’ve definitely trained myself to look for small details quickly and I don’t think I can just shut that off.

    4. Lady Bug*

      I’m jealous of her bravery. I’d love to go bra free all the time, but I’d feel awkward not wearing one to work.

  159. BRR*

    I support a few coworkers with the reports I produce. One coworker, who I dedicate the bulk of my time to and should receive the bulk of my time, has asked if there is a way for everyone to see my entire queue. While she gave an explanation of wanting to have up to date information, I know from past experience that the reason she is asking is because she expects everything done for her immediately and she’ll say why her request should top my other requests. I’ve received universal praise for my work and have never missed a deadline despite the short notice I’m usually given. She’s not my manager, there’s no reason she needs to know everything I’m doing, and she definitely should not be chiming in on how I do my work.

    In our team meeting next week (which is the appropriate time for me to bring it up) I plan on clarifying why she would like this information and respond that I keep my to do list in both a spreadsheet and outlook so it would be difficult to share. Is that an appropriate response to keep from telling me how to do my job? Would you add anything else?

    1. not my usual alias*

      Sounds like there’s not a business reason for her to have “up to date information” that includes what you’re doing for other people. Do you have a supportive manager who’d be willing to say “the information you need is whether BRR is going to meet your deadline or not, and that information is already being provided?” Another tack is “making a list publicly available and keeping it updated would take up time that I could be using actually producing these reports for you, so unless there’s a compelling reason for you to know how many other reports I’m working on, this feels like a step in the wrong direction.”

      1. BRR*

        Thanks! That’s really helpful. I also thought of suggesting she keeps a folder in outlook for her requests.

  160. Consultant*

    I’ve been looking for a job for about 6 months and it’s so disheartening that I can’t find anything. I have had several interviews, but:

    – in some cases it became clear during the interview that I didn’t want the position

    – in some cases I got rejected. I think one reason is that I frequently had to fly to these interviews. Like I got up at 5 am, went to the airport, flew to the city, had the interview and flew back the same day. I was super tired during the interview. Not to mention, in some cases I had a cold – if you plan travelling to an interview several weeks ahead it’s difficult to reschedule in the last moment… There was this one job I wanted to get so badly and was rejected after a three-hour interview. This was so awful. Not to mention I wasted so much time preparing for the interview, spent about a week learning about the company and sector. Not sure why they rejected me. Maybe it’s because they don’t seem to employ female consultants.

    I work out of site 80% of the time, so it’s difficult to schedule interviews and I’m tired basically all the time.

    I just don’t know what to do now. I hate every second in my current job, but I can’t find anything else. I’ve applied at all the companies I would like to work for already. At some of them (big corporations) several times.

    1. Colette*

      Deciding you don’t want the job during the interview is actually a good thing most of the time.

      can you expand your search to other companies you didn’t consider the first time? Unless you’re in a niche industry, there are probably other options, and it’s hard to k ow for sure which ones would be a good fit from the outside.

      1. Consultant*

        Not really. There are not so many pharmaceutical/ chemical companies and consultancies specialising in related subjects. Especially given that my skills are related to typical consulting subjects: strategy (business strategy, market/ing strategy), process optimisation, project management – and, a bit less typically IT and data analysis.

  161. Brendioux*

    I’m not sure if this is the place for a question like this but I’m a little desperate and there are people from so many different industries and backgrounds here so I’m hoping someone can help me out.
    I work for a small but growing company and the owner has been requesting that I handle more and more tasks for him. This time he has had somebody design a poster with gears representing the interconnectedness of all of the departments and how the company functions like a machine. Well, now he wants me to find somebody to actually build all of these interconnected gears so that he can set this thing up during classes and presentations.
    I am at a loss for what kind vendor I’m looking for! I don’t even know what something like this would be called. It’s not a statue… that’s pretty much as far as I’ve gotten.
    If anybody has any insight into what kind of company does this kind of thing, I would really appreciate it!

    1. Kristinemc*

      Would it be considered a sculpture? Or perhaps there is a makers community near you that you could reach out to? They may not be able to help, but might be able to point you in the right direction.

      1. Robbenmel*

        A machine shop? Is there a university near you with a mechanical engineering department whose students might want a project?

      2. Brendioux*

        A sculpture! You’re right, thank you. I’m googling makers community now and it looks like just the kind of thing I need to look into :)

    2. Fictional Butt*

      I don’t have much more of a clue than you do, but I feel like that might actually fall in the sculpture realm? Depending on how much it actually has to “work”? If you have an art school nearby you might find someone who’s willing to take it on, or who would have ideas about who to ask–sculptors know about all kinds of random stuff.

      1. Brendioux*

        Thank you :) Im actually a student at the local community college so I’ll be heading to their art department to see if anybody there can help me out! I know they have some sculptures on display!

    3. Manders*

      How big does he want it to be? This sounds like the kind of project people who work with 3D printers love, but there’s a limit on how large an item they can create.

      1. Manders*

        Or you could suggest something like this: http://www.target.com/p/learning-resources-gears-starter-set-60-pc/-/A-50557681?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&CPNG=PLA_Toys+Shopping&adgroup=SC_Toys&LID=700000001170770pgs&network=g&device=c&location=9033321&gclid=CJ35t6qYjtQCFUNcfgod88gD1w&gclsrc=aw.ds

        It sounds like your boss is the kind of guy who might like being able to pick out all the pieces himself, give them names/symbolism, and snap the structure together as he talks. It sounds weird to me, but hey, whatever keeps him happy!

        2. Jessesgirl72*

          You could totally 3D print all the individual gears… ;)

          Amazon carries that exact one, for the same price, for any interested Prime members who, like me, are too lazy to walk into Target when Amazon can send it to my door!

    4. Owly*

      I would look for a machine shop or maker space. If you want large wooden or plastic gears (10″+) they would need to be CNC milled. If they can be smaller, you can 3d print them but they would not be as smooth and can only be made of certain plastics. Designing gears is actually kind of tricky too. I have a specific CAD based program for it so make sure to ask if they can do the design as well as the manufacturing.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        I would bet someone on thingaverse already has something similar shared. (yes, yes they do!)

        Thankfully, you don’t have to be able to design/code to 3D print things, assuming someone else has wanted it before you!

    5. Mephyle*

      A designer – a person that combines artistic knowledge with practical engineering knowledge to physically make the things they design.
      For example, I did a search on the phrase “hire a designer” and got a website that puts clients in touch with freelance designers of all kinds. There is a list “what kind of designer are you looking for?” that lists about 40 different types. Among all those, a product designer, for instance, might be someone that could do what you need.
      Possibly someone with a 3d printer, or it might be someone who will make the gear thingies by hand.

  162. JC Denton*

    We have a returning employee, “John,” who worked for our department for several years before pursuing other activities. His work was always stellar and he left as a “Senior Teapot Engineer IV.” When John decided to come back, upper management initially wanted to lowball and offer him “Teapot Engineer II.” John scoffed at this and eventually won a long and lengthy negotiation and accepted “Senior Staff Teapot Engineer V.” Our team has headcount, so the team wanted to hire two other former employees, “Sam” and “Bill.” (Our work is fairly specialized, so it’s better to get returnees rather than people you’ll have to train from scratch – which can take years.)

    Sam and Bill are less qualified than John, but left more recently. In perhaps not evaluating resumes/experience properly, management offered both of them “Teapot Engineer II.” (For reference, they left as Junior Teapot Engineers.) They argued and management countered with “Senior Teapot Engineer IV,” which they accepted. When they found out John had been offered the Senior Staff salary, they demanded an upgrade. Management, perhaps surprisingly, gave it to them to keep everyone “happy.”

    Now John is upset because less qualified people are earning the same pay he had to fight to receive. Is he right to be upset? On the one hand, I can totally empathize, because I feel you should pay people what they’re worth. On the other, that’s sort of how the cookie crumbles and you just have to look out for #1. If John came to you, as a former mentee, and asked you for advice – what would you suggest? He wants to ask for more money, but I think that’s just going to go nowhere and end up angering everyone. As someone without a dog in the fight, I think he just needs to work hard, look out for himself, and if he’s happy – who cares what others make?

    Thoughts?

    1. katamia*

      In general, I agree with you that people shouldn’t focus on what others make. However, in John’s position I’d be unhappy, too–not only are they less qualified and making the same as he is, it sounds like he had to do a lot more work to get what he deserved (I’m assuming he actually deserves it), while Sam and Bill just had to whine a bit to get the same thing he got.

      I’d also argue that recognizing an employment situation where he may not be valued as much as he wants to be (or where management isn’t capable of appropriately determining what employees are worth) and making decisions based on that information IS looking out for himself.

      I don’t think there’s much he can do if he wants to stay and work there for awhile, but this isn’t the same as “Charles is a better negotiator than Thomas, so he’s getting paid more even though they’re roughly equal employees.”

  163. Candace and Toni*

    How soon is too soon to apply for a job that I didn’t get? About two years ago, I applied for a job and I didn’t even get a phone screen. Since then, I’ve gotten much more relevant experience and a promotion. The job posting just opened up again today. Should I bother trying for the job again?

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Apply. The worst thing that could happen is that you don’t get the job and then you are exactly where you are right now. Two years is plenty long enough. Good Luck!

    3. Raven*

      I got rejected from a job two years before reapplying and getting it — and loving it. You’ve got nothing to lose!

  164. Applesauced*

    I’d just like to vent about managers who have gotten so far in their career that they don’t do production anymore and so don’t know how long anything takes.

    My boss is SO guilty of this – she regularly agrees to deadlines and due dates without consulting me (the person who will actually DO the work) about what else is on my plate and if it’s feasible. Part of it is not knowing how long things take, part of it is just assuming I can drop everything else for her, and part of it is endless client-pleasing (the client paused a project for 2 weeks, then it restarted. Since we were now 2 weeks behind, I thought the schedule should be revised, she didn’t want to push back to the client) ARRRGGGGGG

    1. Not Karen*

      I feel you. I used to have a team lead (exact role doesn’t translate well…) who didn’t even know how to access our database.

  165. HR Hopeful*

    Hello,

    I was wondering how to get out of the Customer Service Job loop. I have been at several jobs retail/ call center jobs for almost eight years ( I am only 25 , so these are the jobs I could easily get) but now I am sick of the call center life and am looking to try to get into an entry level HR position or at least get an admin job that could lead there in the future. Any tips on how to translate these skills on a resume? I have applied to a lot of different jobs and I have barely gotten any interviews or bites.

    1. Wren*

      Do you have any large companies in your area that might have an “HR Help Desk” or something similar? That is how I got into my current position.

    2. OddWomanOUt*

      Hello HR Hopeful. This story sounds much like mine. I was able to make the transition by looking for entry level roles in my field of choice and tailoring my resume and cover letter to explain how I could apply my experiences to that specific job requirement. I also looked for administrative positions that included HR, where more than just a strict HR background would be of value. Once I got experience and wanted to specifically pursue HR I only highlighted my HR expertise for future roles.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      See if there are any staffing agencies in your area hiring for internal office staff.

  166. Professional Cat Lady*

    Literally just discovered that a job in my field in my area is open, taking applications through the end of next week, and will definitely be getting my application in as soon as possible. I finished a professional degree five years ago and haven’t been able to find a position yet. And this job isn’t even looking for any experience! just professional society membership, which I have. And it would be in a county gov’t position, which is an area of my field that I’ve been looking at trying to crack into. Wish me luck!

    3. The Foreign Octopus*

      You don’t need luck because you’re awesome and ready for it!

      So go get ’em!

  167. OddWomanOUt*

    I am venturing into new territory in my career and I want to do things as well as possible. I am the solo female on a five person executive management team. I am also at least 20 years junior to everyone else (max is 30 yrs). We are under the management of an AWESOME leader and he is new to this dynamic as well. They often attend sports events and lunches at bars, etc. I am now getting invitations to these events. When it is during the work day, I gladly accept if work load and schedule permits. I genuinely have a good time and am not treated as a sympathy invite. Which was my initial fear. However, baseball season is upon us and I HATE baseball. I was invited and declined. I realize I will be the odd one out as everyone else is going, but I have a great dislike for the game that I wouldn’t be able to fake interest. I am worried though, that this is going to come up again and I want to know how to navigate it. I don’t think the not enjoying baseball is a big deal, but I also am concerned that if I accept it will change the dynamics or make the others uncomfortable. I should also mention that I am a single mom without much help so any type of gathering requires coordination. They are all married with older children. I guess my question is based around my own fears that if I don’t at least make some of these outings after work I will be missing out on “political” dynamics that would benefit me later on. I know there are golf outings and have decided to take lessons so if/when I am invited I can say yes and at least know what I am supposed to do. I should mention that I am new in this organization, role and management level. Please help!

    1. Manders*

      I also turned down a work event specifically because I cannot stand baseball. I think that’s fine! If you have the standing to do so, maybe you could occasionally set something up so you know there will be at least some tolerable events you can attend?

      I don’t know what it is with baseball, it is the one sport I just Do Not Get.

    2. SometimesALurker*

      My two cents is that if you go to other group social things through work, it’s fine to decline these. I understand the fear about missing out on political dynamics, and that’s something you may need to get a read on in your organization, but I think it’s fine.

      1. LNZ*

        Yeah, i hate sports in general but still go to these types of events just to get to hang out with people.

    3. Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain*

      I don’t think you have to worry about going if you really hate it. I think sports fans understand when a certain sport isn’t someone else’s thing. Are you all paying for your own seats or are does the company get a suite/loge? If they get a suite, then you might consider showing up for a few innings if it’s not to difficult to do (transportation and time wise). If you buy your own seats, feel free to decline.

      I absolutely hate watching baseball on TV — it’s so boring. But I can say that in the 4 major league baseball games I’ve attended in person, I didn’t watch a single lick of baseball. I couldn’t even say who played (other than the home team). The park experience is very different. I don’t think you are obligated to go, but you could think of it as similar to lunch at a sports bar — you’ll be eating, drinking, and talking, with an athletic event vaguely going on in the background.

      1. Tedious Cat*

        Just wanted to agree with this. I find baseball on TV deathly dull, but a live game is a whole different ball game, pun intended.

    4. Channel Z*

      Propose going to a musical as an alternative. Or the latest rom com. But seriously, maybe just admit that you hate baseball. That way they know it is Baseball that is the problem, not the socializing or the team. You could emphasize that you are working on your (golf) swing.

  168. ????*

    I resigned from my entry-level job at the end of April. The small office (6 people, including me) threw me a going-away party and gave me a gift. Should I send a thank-you card? I don’t want to look ungrateful, but I also don’t want to make them uncomfortable by sending a card. Thoughts?

    1. Lentils*

      I would! If nothing else, it’ll be an opportunity to thank them for being good coworkers and giving you a good experience while you were at the job. I don’t see how that could make them uncomfortable – it sounds like a courteous thing to do.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      It would be charming and appreciated, I bet, if you send a nice card that said thank-you for the gift and also everything you learned in the position. Don’t do this if it’s not true, but I’m hoping it is!

    4. ????*

      Thank you, everyone! This was my first job so I was a little unsure if it would be read as strange. Should I give a little update on the new job or is that too much? I really appreciate all the help, you have no idea how much stress this has been causing me, haha.

      1. Channel Z*

        It sounds like you had good rapport with people, so an update would be appropriate, but maybe not for a month or so so you have more to report.

      2. Jessesgirl72*

        I wouldn’t necessarily give an update, but for sure a thank you, and tell you how much you appreciated working with them.

  169. World's worst intern*

    I work at my city’s City Hall for the municipal government. My office has an intern, a college student who is getting a Bachelor’s in Political Science. He has been here for over a month. Today in a meeting he expressed surprise to me and my coworkers and boss, as well as some VIP’s and elected officials, because he didn’t realise we worked for the municipal government and thought that the city council members were state elected officials. He thought the state government located in a different city was the federal government where the president lives and works. We are nowhere near D.C. and this city is not our state capital. I’m not even joking. It was so embarrassing, the elected officials were slack jawed and so was everyone else. He’s not new to the country or politics, he’s American born and going into his 4th year of university for Political Science. I can’t even right now…

      1. zora*

        I’m going to ditto katamia, because my brain is broken from reading this and I can’t think of other words.

    6. The OG Anonsie*

      I am immediately curious if a family member referred him to this internship…

      1. The Foreign Octopus*

        You’d be surprised at how uninterested some political science majors are in, y’know, actual politics. I majored in International Relations at university and it was ridiculous how the majority of my classmates just didn’t care about foreign affairs and voting. Only 20% of my seminar class planned to vote in the General Election (from the UK) and this was a political class. These people had chosen to study politics. It still remains my biggest WTF moment.

    9. World's worst intern*

      I’m the one who I interviewed him. He was fine during the interview and up until this meeting. His I.D. badge reads “City of *City Name* on it. He went through the same interview as all the interns with our municipality go though, we have a process and people just can’t bring their family on board. It doesn’t matter if you have a family member who works for the City. He doesn’t but it doesn’t factor into the equation at all. We don’t even live in the state capital so I have no idea how or why he thought we were the state government. No one can believe he didn’t know, but he wasn’t joking, he was dead serious.

      1. zora*

        Now I’m super concerned about what school he goes to and what the hell their PoliSci curriculum looks like!!!!

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          It’s so very, very basic, though, that I can see it not coming up in a college course, I guess? Certainly no one would ask about it in an interview.

  170. Lentils*

    I finally got a job offer and can leave my super toxic job that I’ve been stuck in for a year! There are way too many issues with this place to go into, but in short: I’m comically underpaid despite technically being managerial level (my team is remote, but still) and was denied the raise I asked for recently because “nobody here has gotten a raise in the last year,” I’ve had 3 different managers in the last year and a half (and the most recent one just quit after only 3 months), I’m the only on-site person who knows how to actually do my job (my former manager actually came up to me and asked me to SHOW her how to work the website we use for a demonstration she was giving to clients THAT DAY) but was never given any managerial training at all, I never received a company laptop and have had to use a personal laptop when working from home because my requests kept being ignored or “lost,” my commute is 45 minutes-1 hr+ both ways, and my remote team was recently cut in half due to a limited amount of work – but I wasn’t consulted or told who was getting cut.

    Anyway. It’s bad and I’m currently dealing with an *ulcer* that I’m 99% sure I got because of this job and the shitty wage they pay me. So, I need to get out and I finally can! The new job is entry level and basically just data entry and email customer service, but it’s a significant pay increase from what I’m currently making and a friend got me in, so we might be able to carpool. And I will actually have a manager who will train me properly!! This is very exciting. I’m going to send in my resignation on Tuesday and start the new job the 19th.

    6. New Window*

      That’s fantastic! Really happy that you’re able to move on to a better and healthier place.

  171. DietCokeHead*

    I’m looking for advice on video editing software. My job duties have expanded to include recording all training sessions and posting them on our LMS for employees who were unable to attend and also recording the CEO’s monthly video message. Right now, I use Camtasia for the recorded training sessions and Windows movie maker for the CEO’S monthly message. I like Camtasia but it crashes frequently. Also, the recordings come off the camera in ACVHD format and I have to put them through two different converters to work in Camtasia without crashing. I can change the camera to record in mp4, but for some reason Camtasia doesn’t like the codec in the mp4 either. So I’m looking for a software similar to Camtasia that allows multiple tracks and it would be ideal if the final project could be published either as an mp4 or as a scorm with the completion criteria set at viewing 95% or so of the video. It also would be nice if this software didn’t break the bank and could be purchased one time (Adobe, I’m looking at you with your subscription based pricing). Anyone doing anything similar who may have some suggestions?

    1. KR*

      We used Sony Movie Studio at the public access station I used to work at. I was very happy with it.

    2. The OG Anonsie*

      I have a little YouTube channel and I use Adobe Premiere Elements, which is the hobbyist version (against Premiere Pro). It has all the functionality you’re likely to need, though you can look up some feature comparisons to make sure that’s entirely true. It sounds like it should cover your bases.

      It’s still available as a one-time purchase and runs around $80. What I’m not sure about is if there’s something with the licensing that precludes you from using it for this kind of commercial application.

  172. GrantWriter*

    Our company is moving buildings. Can we have a moment of silence for the fact we’re moving from wonderful, door-locking offices to OPEN CUBICLES? RIP my unbroken concentration…

    1. OddWomanOUt*

      I hate that organizations think this is a good idea. I am glad to finally be out of the cubicle set up, it is definitely a transition and some people, like myself, do not thrive in this type of environment.

    2. Lentils*

      Oof, my sympathies. Is it possible for you to wear noise-canceling headphones and/or earbuds to play music through? I dunno if that would help your concentration but for me, familiar background noise helps drown out chatty coworkers.

      Fingers crossed your cubicle isn’t right next to the break room! (My desk is and it doesn’t have a door lol. There’s a pool table and Rock Band in there. It’s…interesting to try to work when people take advantage of those things.)

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      I am pouring out a little bit of my coffee on the office carpet for you as we speak.

    4. NacSacJack*

      Right there with you. Not looking forward to our future move to a open office with agile teams.

  173. Not Today Satan*

    I keep periodically testing the waters and applying to jobs I’m interested, and a HUGE percentage of them are getting back to me and requesting interviews. For most, I panic and end up asking to be taken out of consideration. But (Carrie Bradshaw voice) I couldn’t help but wonder…. what does it mean to finally have choices? With the combo of the job market since I graduated (2008) and a nonlinear work history, this is the first time in my career that it seems staying at a job IS by choice. And I don’t know what to do with this…. I don’t hate my job but I definitely have frustrations with it, and I’ve had such terrible jobs in the past that I’m super wary of change. Anyone else in the same boat now that the job market is finally better?

    1. Manders*

      SAME. I graduated in 2011, and this is my first year of really being at the point where I can go for junior-level instead of entry-level positions. Some days I feel on top of the world, others I’m paralyzed by the idea that I might choose wrong.

      I’ve also come from a background of toxic survival jobs, so there’s an added element of “I’m not having stress migraines anymore and no one yells at me, do I want to risk making the wrong choice and dealing with that again?”

    2. NacSacJack*

      I haven’t started applying for those reasons. I get paid very well. I like my coworkers. I do good work. And although I don’t like parts of my job, I don’t hate it. And I’m scared. Lots of companies laying off and downsizing in our area so I might not be able to find a job here. Recently an friend had to move out of state to get a job. He’s happy because he’s closer to family but still….my family is here. Scaredity Cat. Old Time Skills coming back into demand.

    3. Anxa*

      YES YES YES.

      I’m finally getting interviews and even though they aren’t for the jobs I really want and are seasonal, it feels so weird that I’m getting responses.

      The really weird part for me is that I’m so used to applying for jobs that I see things I could do and would like and have to STOP myself from applying, reminding myself that I really only should leave current job for greener pastures, not to just get a new job.

      My current job has very little opportunity for growth, but my bosses are nice, my skills are appreciated, and I am very comfortable. The idea of walking away into an unknown, where I’d have to wait it out for 2+ years to avoid looking job hoppy and then not knowing how hard I’ll have to work to get into another job as good as my own is terrifying.

  174. Canadian Natasha*

    So I don’t know if anyone else noticed but on one of Alison’s articles on another site that was posted this week (can’t remeember which one) there was a video under the article. The entire video title was too long for the space so what you could see was “How To Develop A Close-Knit Company Cult…”.

    Giggle.

    I’m sure that is supposed to be “Culture” but, you know, I figure it isn’t out if the realm of possibility for this to be a legit AAM question.

    So, has anyone run into a job situation that actually turned cult-like? I wanna hear your stories! ;)

    1. LNZ*

      I accedently joined a cult this way, so yeah. I thought i was going to be a full time volunteer in a London based charity, working in exchange for free room nad board basically. Then about two weeks in i realized it was a cult. Finished my year though cause it let me live in London for free.

        1. LNZ*

          It was hellish, the culture there was what i dubbed the Martyrdom Olympics. If you weren’t suffering or sacrificing everything you had for the cause then clearly you didn’t care enough about the cause. Like i was told we got 30 min lunch breaks when we worked at our day center, i then had to constantly defend myself from accusations of being lazy for actually taking the breaks i was told i should be taking. At one point the other volunteers tried to argue lunch breaks should only be like 5 or so min long cause you can shovel your lunch down fast (never mind a break is also a mental break from a very stressful job). And god forbid you try to modernize anything in this 50 year old organization or try to make sure they actually comply with the laws regarding charities.
          To give you an idea of the redic coworkers i had, one chick caught a guy pick pocketing her, then gave him the money anyway cause if he was stealing from her he clearly needed the money. This was the 3rd time she had been the victim of pick pocketing btw. Another person had been in the community for 50 years, it was his life. He actual separated from his wife cause she wanted to leave London and he wouldn’t leave the city cause then he’d be away from the community.

          On the upside it taught me to be very militant about my boundaries cause i saw what happened when you weren’t.

          2. Canadian Natasha*

            Ooh, speaking of martyrdom, threatening my lunch break would be my hill to die on! As a strong introvert I *need* that time or else you might be unlucky enough to see the big green angry version of Canadian Natasha (or the sobbing because the stapler didn’t work version which may be worse). O_o

            1. LNZ*

              Oh i had so many hills to die on there. Anything that demanded unreasonable sacrifce like that got bumped up to the front of the to die on list. There is a reason everone thought i was a giant selfish bitch.

          3. Ramona Flowers*

            What. Please, please report these people to the Charity Commission and the DWP.

            1. LNZ*

              What are those? I’m not British (hense why i put up with so much for a free year abroad basically) so i dont really know much about how this all operates there.

              1. Isobel*

                The Charity Commission regulates charities – so if the cult are operating as a registered charity but not complying with any regulations they should be reported. DWP = Department for Work and Pensions.

    2. Rincat*

      My first full-time job was at a private university. They are fairly well known but the atmosphere is certainly cult-like. It was very top-down micromanaged by the president, whom some people revered. My director there had totally drunk the koolaid and was constantly telling us we should be so grateful that we worked there, because people would “kill…they would KILL” to work at this school. People were expected to work (uncompensated) overtime out of love for the university, and to recruit all their friends and family, etc etc. if you complained about anything, you got on the Bad List and were truly shunned – I saw a lot of people pushed out. They liked to hire graduates for all their positions so it was very inbred.

      This same director also gave us the following gems:
      – told us it hurt her feelings when we “rushed” out the door at 5pm, like we wanted to be at home or something (!), so she made a rule that we had to linger past 5
      – told us that if we wanted to succeed there, we had to come in early, stay late, work through lunch
      – but wouldn’t let us claim comp time, it was just supposed to be freely given
      – that we were ungrateful and needed to be more passionate
      – that they never did performance reviews because they didn’t want anyone to think they could ask for a raise

      Also several times a year the staff was hit up for donations and totally guilt tripped about it – like saying we were bad people for not wanting to donate to the school. So much fun. :)

      1. Kyrielle*

        I hope their saying you needed to be more passionate didn’t result in anyone forming a duck club. :)

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        … That university wouldn’t have happened to be named after a currently globe-hopping politician who operates out of a big white house, would it?

      3. Canadian Natasha*

        “My director there had totally drunk the koolaid and was constantly telling us we should be so grateful that we worked there, because people would “kill…they would KILL” to work at this school.”
        Unless they had a ninja assassin graduate program on the secret underground level I’m kinda doubting this… (Can you tell who’s been reading too many teen novels lately?)

        1. LNZ*

          I have found that generally the more someone demands you be grearful fir your job the more abusive that person/institution is.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Non-profit company I worked for had a company cheer. I felt so weird doing that. I guess they thought it was appropriate because they run a college program, but GAH. Plus, they required a donation–just once, but I really didn’t want to donate at all, especially since I was only making $8.20 an hour.

      1. LNZ*

        isnt a group chant like a legit brainwashing method? I read something about it and how Walmart uses it.

      2. Canadian Natasha*

        Could you at least secretly make up alternate words to the cheer?
        I would be so tempted (assuming the group is large enough to​ get away with it) to switch it up from “Teapots Giving is the way to go!” into “Teapots Giving wants all our dough!” or something like (with bonus points for extra puns). :)

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          My friend used to answer the phone: “Hello, Llamatown Shitty Council” instead of city. People either didn’t notice or assumed she had a lisp.

  175. oranges & lemons*

    Another “negotiating” question as I have an interview coming up–I’m not sure about the company’s time frame for the start date, but I’m hoping to move it back (preferably to September, at least to later in the summer if possible) for life-related reasons. I also have a 3- to 4-week trip semi-planned to see family next spring. Would it be too much to ask for both? I don’t want to make it seem like I’m eager to avoid working, it’s just the way the timing has worked out!

    1. LK*

      I don’t think that spring trip is anything to bring up before November of this year… most workplaces I have been at don’t even let you book vacation until a couple weeks before the year in question starts. It risks making you look bad and it’s probably not something they even have power to grant you yet.

    2. MissGirl*

      It depends on the company but most companies would have a problem with a four week trip period let alone so soon. If this a deal breaker for you, I’d mention it at the offer stage.

  176. Rincat*

    Email read receipts…

    I know it’s a somewhat contentious topic but I just wanted to vent a little about my student worker’s use of them. I’m not his boss (my manager is), but he works for our team and we all give him tasks and some direction. Well he uses read receipts. For every single email. I asked him why, and he said he auto enabled it. I told him it wasn’t really necessary, especially not for just everyday communications. He just sort of smirked at me and then went back to his desk.

    He’s generally a pretty good employee and takes direction well and does good work, but this one is just weird and annoying to me. I hate read receipts – though I can see their usefulness in SOME situations, but certainly not for everyday use. Anyway I’m going to let it go because otherwise he’s a good employee and I’ve already talked to him about it once.

    At least Outlook gives me the option of declining to send the read receipt. He did ask me why he never gets them back from me and I said I don’t send them because read receipts aren’t necessary, and again, he just sort of stayed silent and went back to work.

    1. LNZ*

      So it’s totally passive agress and unprofessional but someone i know deals with excessive read recipts by first deleting the email then going into the trash folder to transfer it back to their inbox and reading it. The recipt simply says they deleted it unread but they still get to read it.

    2. zora*

      He’s a student worker, I don’t get why you are being so passive on this, honestly. You didn’t really “talk” to him about it. As was said in another thread on this same post, say “You should not be using read receipts on your emails” not “you don’t have to.” that is too unclear and he did not get the message.

      You will be doing him a service if you teach him that as he starts working regular jobs, he needs to adjust to the office norms, not the other way around.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Don’t let it go. You will be doing him a huge favour if you tell him how much this annoys almost all people.

  177. Preggo*

    Late to the thread but…

    I’m about 4 months pregnant and thinking about telling my colleagues pretty soon but I’m not sure how. I think, deep down, they’ll be happy for me but we’re a small team as it is and my due date just happens to be smack bang in the middle of a very busy period so I’m sure there’s going to be an element of ‘How are we going to cope when she’s off on maternity leave?’ or even ‘How dare she have a baby around that time? What was she thinking?!?’

    Potentially TMI but I’d describe the pregnancy as semi-planned. We wanted a family so just stopped ‘being careful’, for want of a better way of putting that, so it’s not like we planned it for this exact date and we had been ‘being careless’ for several months before getting pregnant. But still part of me feels a little bit guilty that I can’t hand on heart say ‘Yep, total accident this is happening during busy period!’.

    My boss already knows (I had a tricky first trimester and had to be off more than I wanted to for hospital appointments/general unwellness) and has been good about it so far but I now want to tell the team as a whole. I’m also starting to ‘show’ a bit so, if I don’t tell soon, I’m thinking my body might soon do the talking for me! Any suggestions?

    1. LK*

      The nerve of someone, anyone, BLAMING you for being pregnant at a certain time….. that’s SO rude…. they don’t know if you got pregnant 24 hours after you starting trying or if you got pregnant after 5 years of fertility drugs. Imagine telling a coworker that their pregnancy was poorly timed if the latter was the case….. trust me when I say that you would be very, very in the right if you immediately shut down ANY comments about how what you do to your own body affects the company’s staffing needs. If this happens, this is their huge faux pas and something you should not take on emotionally. You are doing something you want to do! This is good! And, this is not a rare event. They can hire a temp or new staff, just like every other company in the world does when this thing happens. It’ll be fine for them and it’ll be fine for you :)

      (I’m not in the US so that may give me rosier glasses than others about mat/pat leave)

      I am firmly in the “hate getting unsolicited advice from people who don’t know me really, really well” camp so I wouldn’t tell people until month 7 or 8 (let them guess and don’t deny if they asked outright, but I wouldn’t announce it per se)….. but I think this is something you can say at the water cooler in a small group. An email seems weirdly formal to me.

    2. Friday*

      Congratulations! A few things:

      – You don’t owe anyone an answer to “was it planned.”
      – Family planning can take years for some people and is an intensely personal decision, so nobody has the right to make you feel like you are letting them down by getting pregnant.
      – It’s ultimately your boss’ responsibility to ensure coverage during your busy time. It’s your responsibility to help with the plan while you are there, which in my mat leave case meant that I documented many of my tasks and trained core people ahead of time. Once you’re on leave, you’re on leave.

    3. Thlayli*

      You definitely don’t owe them an explanation. However, if you want to, saying something like “we’d been trying for a few months” will make it clear that you weren’t deliberately planning to be our right in the middle of busy season.

      FYI this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. having sex without contraception IS trying for a baby. It’s not “being careless” or “semi-planned”. You were intentionally having sex without contraception therefore you were trying to get pregnant.

      1. Preggo*

        Thank you for all the comments – hope it’s ok if I reply collectively to save my fingers. Deep down, I know covering for me while I’m off is ultimately a cost of doing business. I also know I could equally be off during that same period if I got hit by a bus/won the lottery and quit/the company suddenly downsized and sacked me and the world would still go on, so part of me just thinks I should suck it up and tell them…but part of me also really likes avoiding potentially awkward conversations, I guess!

        I also don’t think anybody will tell me to my face that I’m selfish for daring to have a baby at that particular time (trust me, they will be told where to go if they do). It’s more that our office has a bit of a gossip-y culture so I’m imagining it might be said behind my back (but, thanks to the comments, I’m now just thinking ‘Well, if they want to do that, let them!’). We also have at least one member of the team who could be described as a ‘stewer’ so I can imagine a situation where they would passive aggressively hold it against me for months on end.

        Also, sorry if ‘semi-planned’ caused any offence – and equally I don’t mean any offence by this next bit because it’s highly situation-specific to me – but it is that black and white-ness of ‘Either this was planned or unplanned’ that is making me uneasy. To add that context, my team is a) mostly childless, unattached and young and b) can probably count on one hand the number of people who have taken maternity or paternity in the last 10 years and half of those were IVFs on the first try (…that we were told about). So part of me thinks there is an element of thinking that goes ‘When you want a baby, you just make one and you magically have a child nine months later’. On the grounds that I am now growing a child, I realise that’s utter rubbish, even with fertility drugs and IVF…but, admittedly, there was probably a very small part of me that thought that as well before we started trying. So, as misguided as it is, I can see how some of them would hear ‘planned’ and think ‘picked to be off during busy period’.

        I also secretly wish I was brave enough to shut down any remarks that suggest I should be apologising for my due date (and, to be clear, these are hypothetical remarks, not aimed at anybody here, because you’ve all been lovely!) with, ‘Oh, I really do hope that, when you want to start a family, it is as easy to time as you’re making it sound. Because you clearly have no idea how heartbreaking it is to realise, for months and months on end, that this wasn’t your lucky try. Or how upsetting it is to wonder if you’ve reached a point now where you only continue trying as a formality so that you have enough ‘evidence’ to show your doctor that this isn’t naturally going to happen on its own and you are going to need medical help. Or how devasting it is to wonder if maybe something you so desperately want might actually never happen for you. And not that this actually crossed our minds at the time or that it’s any of your business, but, if we had conceived immediately, my due date would have been during a really quiet time at work. So, I’d really appreciate it now if you’d take your opinion and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.’

        But I’m a bit of a coward so a mumbled ‘Well, it wasn’t unplanned…’ is the best I’ve got.

        1. dawbs*

          FWIW, if some of those pregnancies were IVFs, I think it’s fair to say, those folks were trying for years, regardless of the busy season.
          Because people don’t subject themselves to that sort of hell without trying everything else first–especially easily controllable things like ignoring calendars.

        2. Thlayli*

          Oh I’m not offended, it’s just a pet peeve of mine when people say “oh we weren’t trying, we just stopped using contraception”. A friend f mine recently told me her daughter wasn’t planned it just happened acccidentally when she came off the pill! It just annoys the hell out of me for some reason.

          It kind of sounds like you are feeling a little guilty about it still. Please don’t. You absolutely have a right to have a baby without having to plan it around your work. It not your fault if that makes things difficult for your company. and you don’t need at allto make excuses or explain that it was planned or unplanned.

          if you really do want a phrase to shut people up you could say “well I actually planned to have a baby and be out during our quietest time, but unfortunately Mother Nature had other ideas.” That will make it clear that you did not have utter control over the time you got pregnant.

          And seriously who thinks you can just plan these things. only 1 in 4 healthy young couples get pregnant the first month of unprotected sex, so it’s ridiculous for anyone to assume you can just plan at the drop of a hat. The numbers are obviously much lower for older couples or people with health or fertility problems. Not to mention the huge risk of miscarriage. Anyone who thinks people should plan their conception around work priorities is just ridiculously bad at calculating probability.

  178. "Thingy Manager"*

    People who have worked at (tiny to small) but growing businesses and had only the vaguest verbal suggestion of a job description:

    Does anyone have any experience or advice relating to the general situation of feeling like your choices are to be mediocre at your job (ie just keep up with daily operations) or work off the clock to do the thinking, planning, or documenting that there is no time to do during normal daily operations, due to customers, etc? I cannot be reclassified as salaried exempt as my expertise is skilled trade, and I spend the rest of the day with customers or the extensive manual labor of opening and closing our location . Also, I make $15 in an area where that doesn’t even qualify me to rent a studio apartment.

    I’m already a defacto manager of my peers (awkward!) for certain projects where I have expertise, and I’d like to start building better documentation and written training. We are are also starting to grow and hire enough that there should really be a training/onboarding checklist, both generally and in my specific area. I also have some ideas for better tracking of our costs in my area. I suppose I could pitch these as projects I could work on at home since I rarely get 40 hours. Weekly planning, todo’s, goal-setting is difficult with constant interruptions from customers and coworkers, and it feels like a waste of time given that it’s hard to get all my operations tasks accomplished each week already. So, I spend time off the clock and then feel shitty about it.

    I’d really like to reframe this situation and try to feel better about it in the short term, and slowly work towards making a case for more money at the same job. I’m stuck in a weird niche and this job is one of few where I can get some general business skills to work my way out of it.

  179. MacAilbert*

    So, I did a bad thing. I quit my job without having another job lined up. I work part time and go to school full time, so maybe that’ll dampen the impact some, but I’m looking to replace this job relatively quickly, and prospective employers are going to ask.

    I left because of the constant crisis atmosphere in this place, combined with increasingly finger pointy district management. I’m a liquor merchant, but I work in a store that sells a lot of stuff besides alcohol, and it’s fairly common for me to be the only sales associate on the floor, or one of two. It’s stressful as all get out, because if a customer would like furniture or rugs, a sales associate has to physically retrieve them from the stockroom, which means I’m really not giving any attention to liquor, food, kitchenware, or whatever, and customers aren’t getting any help. So they see me rushing to the stockroom (furniture and rugs are on the opposite side of the store as the stockroom) and ask me for help, and I can’t because I have a customer in furniture and then more people in furniture waiting. There’s nobody else who can help the customer because all we have besides me is a cashier and a manager who’s probably on the floor with another customer already if they aren’t tied up in the cash office, so the customer gets upset and leaves, and we lose sales. Then district management gets wind of those customers complaining, and looks to see which one of us needs to be blamed. Not to mention all the drama, as we’re that kind of close knit “nobody can piss you off quite like family” type estabishment (kind of starting to understand why corporate dislikes that, honestly). This place sucks you in, and in the 21 months I’ve been here, it’s completely dominated my mental and emotional attention, to the point where it seriously impacts school. That’s why I had to just walk away. My stress level has been through the roof for months, and this my grades semester aren’t what I’m truly capable of, because I just don’t devote enough energy to school.

    My question is, how do I parse this in a job interview? I certainly can’t just talk shit about my employer.

    1. AMD*

      I am really curious if anyone has a better answer. I might say that “The hours they were asking would have detracted from my ability to keep up my grades,” but you don’t want them thinking you won’t prioritize New Job…. “I felt like I couldn’t serve customers as well as I wanted with the resources I was given, and so I decided to look for a change” maybe?

    2. MacAilbert*

      Couple relevant things, since I can’t edit. I am taking summer classes (what will be a very difficult one for me, actually), so there is a reason I’m leaving for school at the start of summer. I did give 2 weeks notice, and the general manager says I’ll be eligible for rehire. I do have good personal references from one of the supervisors and the head cashier.

      1. Jessie the First (or second)*

        I don’t think you have to worry at all. People leave jobs! And you left on good terms, with appropriate notice, and have good references, including from your supervisor!

        So, I like AMD’s script. Or you could probably be even more vague and say simply that it was time for a change, and you are looking forward to working in place where you can use x and y skills. People won’t think twice about this -you’d have more to worry about if you stormed off with no notice. Seriously, you’re good!

    3. Manders*

      Yeah, that setup is weird. In my state, I’m not even sure it’s legal–I’ve never seen a store with a liquor section without an employee who was supposed to *just* hang out in that section. I think you could safely tell an interviewer that the place was understaffed and you want a job where you can give a customer your full attention instead of rushing around and making people feel neglected.

      1. MacAilbert*

        It’s legal in California. Our liquor laws are some of the least restrictive in the country. It’s very common for big box stores to carry alcohol here, and most grocery stores I go to have spirits. The movie theater I usually go to sells beer and wine.

        Super common for a grocery store or big box liquor section not to have an employee present. I see it so much, I don’t even think twice about it.

    4. Definitely Anon*

      I think you can spin this one of two ways:
      1) The job evolved into somthing you were not interested in doing. You were hired to be the liquor merchant but you ended up being a general floor salesman.
      2) The hours interfered with school and you are looking for something with better hours, more flexiblilty, insert other thing here.

  180. AMD*

    I’m trying to last in my full time job long enough to cash in my 12 weeks paid maternity leave in August, but I am so discouraged at work. The work is high stress but high fulfillment, but my coworkers drive me nuts (my boss is all business, no social chat with me though she chats with the others, who are gossipy, moody, or rude by turns.) I am feeling very isolated today, and very tired from being pregnant and still throwing up daily, and just want to quit. I know I just need to adjust my attitude and soldier on, but today I need to vent.

    I also am seriously considering taking a ten percent reduction in hours/pay, which would reduce my leave pay by the same amount. But the only QOL improvement I would see isn’t my four weekly 10hour shifts becoming 9 hours instead, and I am not sure if that isn’t worth how much it would cost me.

    1. Anono-me*

      That sounds very unpleasant. My sympathies.

      Can you take a long weekend (or two) to rest and spend some time with pleasant people so that you are recharge for work?

      1. AMD*

        I very fortunately have a vacation scheduled for the week coming up. Thank you for the reminder that I can use that time to recharge. :)

  181. Accidental Salary Transparency*

    I recently stumbled upon salary information for almost all of my colleagues. It was so disheartening. My employers apparently puts a huge premium on length at the company because so many of the longer-tenured people make a ton more than me, even with less responsibility and poorer performance. Even worse, there are two people who were managers (my current position) and were demoted because they were terrible, but still somehow kept their manager salary… which is significantly higher than mine.

    I get valuing longterm employees, but many of them are mediocre at best, and our company has a problem with younger, ambitious/hard working employees leaving for greener pastures. I think it’s stupid.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      There are a couple reasons for this that doesn’t necessarily = they care about longer termed employers more than me! It sucks, it really and truly does, but it’s not usually so black and white.

      One possible reason is that people who were hired during a boom- whether the economy as a whole, or just the company- are going to be hired at higher rate than those hired in a recession or slump. Given the typical across-board raises, that means they still make more. It also may be that they are poor performers now, but at the time were rock stars. It also can be that your definition of poor performer isn’t the same as the person they are managed by.

      As for the demoted people keeping their Manager salary? Oh, that is so, so common. Usually when they have institutional knowledge that’s really valued and they can do the technical work they got demoted back to doing, but were really bad managers. Being a bad manager doesn’t mean you’re a bad engineer, for example- it just means you’re better off in Engineering.

      Unless you’ve discovered a class of people are being paid less than another class, the only thing you really need to determine is, are you being paid what the current rate is for your position and experience (and even if you went to another company, year’s experience in your role is going to determine, in part, your salary) If the answer is no, use that research as leverage for a raise. If they won’t budge, go to someplace that will pay you market rate. If the answer is yes, you’re being paid market rate- then be content with the amount you were content to take for the position to begin with.

    2. NacSacJack*

      I concur with the managers retaining their salary after being moved out of a managerial role. It takes a long time to build up that salary and people generally live to the edge of their means. That said, what you don’t see is oftentimes they are locked in that salary for years. This is due to a lack of paybands/career paths for non-managerial employees. For example, Engineering Manager might have a Sr. Engineer reporting to him, but what is a lateral title for non-managerial role?

  182. Not Today Satan*

    Related to my improving job market comment above, but on the flip side: I’m currently hiring, and the search has been such a mess. It’s basically an entry level direct social service position, and it pays very well for that type of work (the salary is included in the ad). Yet we get so few applicants, and many of them are terrible. SO few make any attempt to individualize their cover letter or resume or to sell themselves in any way. It’s so perplexing to me. I’m not sure how much of it is caused by the job market getting a lot better, or if we’re making mistakes marketing the positions. (Fwiw, I made sure that the job description was relatively short and flexible on requirements.)

    1. Amber Rose*

      A lot of people are just bad at job hunting.

      I know when we were hiring at Old Job, we kept getting the same resume emailed to us… and about 20 other companies. Didn’t even use the BCC, just CC’d a whole huge massive list of places.

    2. H.C.*

      If you haven’t already, I would also send with local universities/colleges’ career centers or alumni network – which are great resources for posting entry level work. Likewise for relevant professional networks

    3. LNZ*

      I work in recruitment for something similar and omg yes. I’ve been interviewing people who had forgotten which job this was cause they applied for several and lost track of when which interview was. This has happened multiple times. As has people having no idea how to handle the “tell me a bit about yourself” question and acting like it came out of left field.

  183. TimeToFy*

    My spouse is a teacher and her position was eliminated at her school. She’s had a few interviews at other schools in her district, but one that she had last week stood out, as the school is very good and a desirable place to work. It seemed a perfect fit and the administration really liked her. The interview was last Friday and they told her they would make a decision this week. Well, it’s Friday afternoon and no one has called or emailed. She called the school and they aren’t even in the office. My question is, in this situation, when is it appropriate to do a follow-up call? Should she call next week or should she just wait for them to call her?

    1. H.C.*

      I would wait until end of next week to follow-up; hiring decisions can take longer than they anticipated and there’s no way they would have forgotten to contact your spouse if they want to extend her the offer.

    2. aaanon*

      Just wait. Education often has unexpected snags, as with most government work. If you’re in the US, it’s a holiday weekend, and a pretty large one at that, coupled with the end of the school year, means that most places around here are running two or three weeks behind schedule on non-essential things.

  184. Ramona Flowers*

    So I asked our team admin to book me onto an external training workshop today and when he forwarded me the confirmation I saw it had asked for my name, job role, date of birth, gender, contact details and dietary requirements.

    Wtf.

    I love how our admin handled it, which was to check in with me about the dietary requirements, and then simply leave the date of birth and gender blank.

    Seriously, wtf. (This isn’t a field where age or gender are at all relevant.)

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Just, why would they need to know that?

        It can’t just be for demographic purposes as they’d need to provide a data protection statement and such for that.

  185. FD*

    Argh, I’m just on my last nerve with contractors the last few weeks. I feel like if we pay you thousands of dollars per year, I shouldn’t have to call you to keep you on task regularly. (I mean vendors like sign vendors, our web designer, etc.)

    It’s maddening, and more and more I understand why people pay more for reliability–it’s a premium!

  186. H.C.*

    I would wait until end of next week to follow-up; hiring decisions can take longer than they anticipated and there’s no way they would have forgotten to contact your spouse if they want to extend her the offer.

  187. Anon for this*

    So…I feel like I’m not a very good PhD student, or maybe just independent worker in general. I’ve developed some bad work habits that limit my productivity and make me feel less good about myself. The main problems (as I see them) are:

    1) I’m not good at starting projects, developing plans/goals for myself, etc. I can do really high-quality work when I’m given a specific task and some kind of timeline for it, but I’m less good at self-starting or at deciding what I should be working on when I’m left to my own devices.

    2) Related to the above, often when I feel aimless or unfocused, I waste a lot of the workday on off-topic websites. When I’m not under pressure, I’m not very good at self-policing.

    Has anyone experienced similar issues and gotten better at dealing with them? I’d like to think that I’m capable of becoming more independent, focused, and proactive in the workplace, but when I think about where I am now and how much room I have for improvement, I get intimidated.

    1. long time lurker*

      These sound like really common student problems. I know people who’ve had these struggles in HS and uni, including myself. For policing yourself, a lot of people use apps that block certain sites for a certain amount of time. You can also set up “mini-goals” for long term papers and projects. Time management might help. I used to keep a big calendar and write down my mini-goals so I didn’t save everything for the last minute.

      http://www.stickk.com/ is a good website if you need help holding yourself accountable. It might be easier to do things on time when your money is on the line.

      If the reason that you have problems with deciding what you should be working on is that you’re not completely clear on the expectations when not given a direct task, ask your professors what the expectations are or what qualities an “ideal” project would have.

    2. Thlayli*

      I developed a system during my PhD of tracking my time. I set myself a goal of spending 5 hours per workday on my actual PhD work. When I started a task or changed task I would write the time (rounded to the nearest 5 mins) on a piece of paper, and a letter to say what I had spent that chunk of time doing (e.g. P for PhD work, G for goofing off, C for coffee break, L for work on my part time lecturing job etc) Then at the end of the day I added up all the time chunks. If I had spent less than 5 hours at my PhD I would write in my next day section in my planner how many hours I was down. (I also allowed myself 10 mins of time spent on PhD work as a break – so it was really only 4 hours and 10 mins I needed to do).
      By the end of the week I would come in on Friday and be “oh crap I have to do 10 hours work today I better get cracking” whereas my office mate would be “oh crap I’ve done nothing all week, oh well, may as well wait till Monday and start then”.

      Also – strange weekly progress meets with your supervisor if possible. Plan your work so that you have publications to produce – a few lit review publications, a publication about your rig for your experimental work (or whatever), a publication about the computer model you are developing, a publication about your results etc. As you are going write up in your draft thesis doc as you go and use that incomplete thesis doc as your annual progress report for your supervisor.

      Good luck.

    3. TL -*

      Time spent developing a structure and planning should be part of your workweek. I work with a very successful MD/PhD and she writes up a weekly to-do list every Monday and keeps them (in Word). So it might read: Mon: TC maintenance, plate for drug assay, meeting with computational biologists. Tues: Doctor’s appointment, perform drug assay, analyze results.
      If something doesn’t get done Monday, it gives moved to Tuesday. This keeps us on track day-to-day. Specific, discrete tasks are the key to this!
      She also plans regular meetings with her PI/collaborators which forces her to think about her project at a high level. (She also plans for that; 7-10 am every day is for paperwork/writing/reading. On Monday morning, that includes list making.) She talks to a lot of people about her project, which also helps with the high level thinking.
      In general, I think it helps to focus on completing one small part each week – plan it on Monday. Then do it and on Friday, think about it how it fits into your bigger goals (or if you need to repeat it or whatever) and what the next step is from there (or whatever timeline makes sense.) Once a month or so, step back and think really big picture, incorporating all your new data.
      Your professor should be providing a lot of support and guidance throughout all this – and it’s fine to go to them and say, “I’m seeing that my evidence that the Mayans were the first to use chocolate teapots is not as compelling as I’d hoped but I’m not sure where to go from here. I tried checking the literature but nothing showed up.” Or, “I translated this original Mayan document and found a reference to a chocolate teapot as early as 1200 AD. This is how I see it fitting into my project – what you do think it means?”

      1. Definitely Anon*

        I do the exact same thing! On Monday I list out every task for each day. The trick is to break down tasks into components that can be done in a day or less. “Write paper” is too broad but “write first draft of results section” is doable. The other trick is to have some accountability build in. For example, you don’t get to go home until you finish but if you do more than was on your list you pick up ice cream on your way home.

    4. ???*

      I’m not sure how to deal with problem 1, but problem 2 is definitely something that I faced and became better at.

      When I was writing my undergrad thesis, I basically treated writing and studying as a job with regular hours. I would get up every day, go to the library from X AM – Y AM, go to class, get lunch, then go back to the library until Z PM. Even if I didn’t have any immediate upcoming deadlines, I always kept to that schedule, which meant I would rarely have to rush to do things at the last minute and sometimes would even finish assignments early.

      I also made sure that, when I was in the place where I studied (my thesis desk in the library), there was absolutely nothing I could do there other than school work. I used the Leechblock add-on to block access to all non-academic sites during those times of day. Sometimes I would go to the library and not want to work, and would end up wasting some time doing nothing. But since work was really the only thing I could do there, I would eventually start working out of sheer boredom, since I had limited my own options to “work” or “sit here staring into space”.

    5. Nieve*

      If you have any friends who’re also doing a PhD plan daily study sessions. Plan to meet them at x at z time on a regular basis etc. It really helps to have someone who is also doing work, you can bounce ideas off them, when you feel like youre going to be distracted by something you see them work and you feel guilty about not doing your own work, and if the other sees you not working s/he can act judgemental which will also guilt-trip you into doing your work haha
      And if you make these sessions pre-planned, its more difficult to back out than if you just made yourself some study rules. If you are a person who keeps promises etc, you would feel bad about cancelling with the other person. Pretty much just force yourself :)

    6. Anon for this*

      I know that no one is checking back now, but thank you for all your suggestions! I think I’m going to try mandated start-of-day/start-of-week planning and Thlayli’s time tracking system and see where that gets me.

      And maybe a piece of paper to write down stray thoughts/non-work to-do items, because often when I sit down to work on one thing, my brain will remind me that I need to check my online banking or RSVP to my soccer game or do something else that’s not work-interrupting important.

  188. Student Moving Out*

    What do you all think in general about talking about how much you earn with your coworkers?
    Regardless of whether your contract forbids it or not (in my country, a court ruled that a general “Don’t talk about what you earn, ever”-clause is invalid because it runs contrary to the principle of equality since an employees needs to know what others earn to see if he/she is treated unfairly).
    My sister got a raise and she talked about it with her coworkers. Turns out another woman was earning less despite being there for a year longer. She was majorly upset and went to their bosses – and then was told my sister does better work, hence more money. But then one boss also told my sister that “talking about what you earn with your coworkers is how you not get any future raises”.
    Urgh.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      I have heard from female financial experts that you should absolutely discuss how much you earn with your coworkers. To do otherwise is how companies get away with paying less to protected classes.

      Having said that, there is such a thing as discretion. Probably your sister’s manager should have been coaching the other woman about her lackluster performance all along, but I can see being less likely to give your sister a raise if she’s going to spread it around, and the spreading around causes headaches. It’s not good management, but, well, there are a lot of not good managers out there.

      It’s complicated.

    3. Cruciatus*

      Hmm. My work place has salary bands so you can kind of guess how much a person might be making since the bands are public knowledge. After I had been there for a while, a coworker that I trusted started talking about salaries and what we made and I trusted telling him (and him me). I felt a little bad since I was making more despite him being there longer. But I also asked for more and he didn’t (and this helped him in his latest job to ask for me. He realized it wasn’t such a scary thing to do). And then when I got my new job on campus, and now he has his new job on campus, we both still know how much the other is making. I’m still making more because I’m in a new salary band, but he also got an increase. But I trusted him to not to run to anyone and say “I want more since Cruciatus makes more!” But we also work in a place where you don’t just get a raise (besides the yearly measly 1-2%. You have to undergo a job duties re-evaluation in order to get an actual raise raise so even if he mentioned he wanted to make as much as me, there’s nothing that could have been done).

      It’s frustrating because on the one hand, I think everyone should be able to talk about it (and when Alison did the post about how much people make, I realized how LITTLE I make and it didn’t feel good because there’s not much I can do about it without moving or something else very drastic. But on the other hand, it’s good to know how other positions are valued.) But you do have to trust who you talk to. And it’s crap that talking about salary would lead to someone not getting another raise. Why is it such a secret that we’re all working for money and some people make more than others.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Depending on the laws of your country, retaliating against someone for discussing salary could be illegal. I’d be checking that.

      1. BlueWolf*

        Funny this should come up. I think I just read an article recently about this. I think it said in the U.S. it is illegal to retaliate against employees for discussing salary. So I agree that it definitely might be something you should look into.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          This is one of those endlessly frustrating things, though, because I dare anyone to prove in an actionable way that any future raises she does or does not get are because of this. Even that comment, as ridiculous as it is, is probably not actionable even if it is treading around on the lines of legality.

    5. katamia*

      I’m a big fan of salary transparency in general, although right now I’m partly self-employed and partly minimum-wage retail, so it’s not as useful to me as it might be to someone working in an office. If I worked elsewhere I’d definitely try to be open about it, though.

      1. KR*

        SAME about salary transparency. I used to work in municipal government where you could look up what everyone made every year in a published report. It just puts everyone on the same page.

    6. H.C.*

      For better or for worse, I am a government employee in California – and you can look up our salary+benefits pay on the transparency website.

  189. NewManager*

    How do you handle external contacts that are purposefully difficult to work with? I work with a lot of external vendors through my job, which all have their own challenges, but there is one in particular that I can’t figure out how to handle. Bob used to work for my company and moved on to a partner company awhile ago. He left on bad terms and since then has been difficult and rude to staff of my company – I know he’s being purposefully difficult because he knows how things are done at our company and continues to submit incomplete information and question everything we do, despite his knowledge from previously being on the other side of this relationship. I’ve been as polite as I can in my dealings with him as we need to maintain our relationship with his new company, but dealing with him is so frustrating! What he’s doing is causing inefficiencies in the work we do together, but without seeing the emails how Bob is deliberately stalling things, it would look like my company is the one holding up the work.

    Bob’s new boss happens to also be my old boss, Jack, with whom I still have a good relationship. Is there ever a point at which it would be ok to go to Jack and ask him to get Bob to improve his behavior in dealing with my company?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      At the outset, I’d like to encourage you to go to your own supervisor *first* rather than straight to Jack, because s/he needs to know about the effects of Bob’s behaviors on your work. One potential way to approach this with your supervisor would be to highlight the inefficiencies you’ve identified. What kind of inefficiencies are Bob’s behaviors causing? Please consider building your case by going over each of these difficult interactions, one-by-one. Can you label the specific behaviors that are causing problems (e.g., incomplete information on initial requests, requiring company staffer’s [repeated?] following up reminders)? How frequently do these behaviors occur? (e.g., with EVERY initial request? If yes, how long has this been going on, the last month, the last 6 months, from Day 1 when he started working with the other organization?) Or, if his habit of supplying incomplete information—on forms, in emails—occurs in almost every transaction, you can say this behavior occurs, on average, X times per month or X times per project. Then, and here’s the key thing, you’re going to have figure out a way to measure or monetize the delays this is causing. So, how much staff time (hours? days? weeks?) is spent waiting for him to get back with correct info—time that you could have spent working to progress the request? If you are having to remind Bob, repeatedly, to supply information he should have already given you, how much time is that taking—5 min? 10 min? 15 min? If you divide your hourly salary up in 5-, 10- or 15 min. increments, then you’ll be able to tell your boss what the approximate cost of Bob’s delays to the company are.

      I realize that this is a LOT of homework—especially considering the length of time this has been going on—but you will look better to your supervisor, b/c it shows you very clearly understand that Bob’s uncooperative behaviors have led to serious and measurable costs to your company, in terms of lost staff time and money, and that you are not just whining. You can also mention, if it is relevant, whether/how Bob’s behaviors are leading to the delayed delivery of your company’s goods or services to other clients of your company.

      If your boss blows you off, then I would definitely go to Jack. With Jack, however, you might consider starting that convo a little differently, by asking if he’s aware of what Bob’s approach [list of behaviors here] has been since [date]. If not, you can mention that Bob’s behaviors have delayed your company from providing the good/service in a timely manner, in addition to costing your org time and money (Jack doesn’t need specifics here the way your boss did). Ask Jack to check into whether there is anything he could do to discourage [Bob’s listed behaviors] from occurring any more, because your company values its professional relationship with Jack’s company. Good luck. Please send us an update, if you can. I’d be interested in knowing how you solved this.

  190. Shayl*

    I’m getting ready to become a remote worker for my job because my husband needs to move for his work. My job has been wonderful about this and is allowing me to continue my job from across the country.

    What can I do to make this transition easier? I’ve never really worked full time from home before, but I know its possible to feel lonely and disconnected if you aren’t careful. I love my job and the work I do, so I don’t want that to change!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I have a colleague in a similar situation – she moved away and splits her time between another office (same organisation but no teapot team) and working at home.

      She’s proactive about initiating communication which definitely helps – she emails when she gets in in the morning saying what she’s working on and asking how everyone is. We use Slack too. Don’t be disheartened if you need to start the conversation – and do keep doing so. Ask your manager for regular updates and organise a way to catch up remotely.

      1. Shayl*

        We use Slack, and I’m already really active on it even though people sit near me. I will miss the face to face stuff, but I was thinking about setting up a Google hangout or something that people can connect to and talk to me face to face if they want to easily.

    2. katamia*

      If possible, try working at home for a few days (maybe once or twice a week) before you move to figure out some of the pitfalls and trouble spots in advance and put systems in place to mitigate them before you go full-on remote.

      Depending on how sensitive the information you’re dealing with is and what kind of equipment you need, you could also try going to the library or a cafe or renting a workspace in a coworking location if there’s one near you to help with the loneliness.

    3. Red Reader*

      Set yourself a “commute routine.” Some people always dress for work, even if they’re not leaving the house. You could have “work shoes,” or a regular schedule, special work-day coffee mug. I think it was someone here who said that they go walk around the block before and after work as a “commute” to separate working-at-home and being-at-home. If your space allows, have a work-only area so you can leave work behind.

      You may find that your ability to disconnect does allow you to have a little more overlap. I can work on my laptop in my living room with no issue. (I’ve worked full time from home for three years.) But I know a lot of people who have to keep a much more distinct separation.

  191. aaanon*

    I need some guidance on how to really handle my situation. I’m not trying to toot my own horn, but it’s pretty clear that I out-class most of my coworkers at my level. The only reason I’m where I am(admin) and not on the professional staff is a lack of a degree. Because I’m relatively new, I make far less than even the most underperforming admin in our organization, and from what I’ve seen all raises are tied directly into years worked, not skills or abilities. I always tend to throw myself into my work and want to do better than I have before, and I know I’ve made some waves and some serious impressions with my director and even the ED, but I don’t think it’s enough to leverage a skills/accomplishments-based raise, since my read on things is that it’s just Not Done and I don’t want to risk capital on asking right now. All that being said…how can I come to terms with that? I love this job, and I’m relatively fairly compensated for our area wrt to pay and benefits, but I’m scared that bitterness will start encroaching on me. Most of the time it’s easy to deal with, but when all my co-workers go out for lunch and I’m stuck begging out because I can’t afford to eat out the general unfairness starts to sting.

  192. The OG Anonsie*

    Can anyone give me any hot tips to give a college student who wants to get into technical writing?

    He is a double English and education major, wants to be a high school teacher but also have the ability to get those tech writing contracts here and there (like when school is not in session). He’s just returned to school to get a BA, he has an English AA and used to be a mechanic but is still pretty young. I helped him go through what kinds of independent study and internship opportunities they have through the English, comms, journalism, etc departments at his uni and he’s been hunting around for other work as well but is having a rough time. He needs some actual paying work on top of this, too, and if we could find something that both helps him in his goals and brings in some money that would be great.

    This is not really my field, though, so I’m not sure what exactly a person does to try to get into technical writing specifically starting as a student. I have advised him to look for the above opportunities where he could actually do some writing, which is how I got started, but I wasn’t doing it with the intent to become a contract writer. I got into science writing because I had advanced courses/projects/internships/jobs that required it over the years, but that was more or less by chance. I now do freelance tech & science writing for supplemental income around my day job (like he wants to do), but again, my contacts for this all came from those things I did as a student and previous jobs, so it has all been serendipity.

    I don’t want to be that person who sort of accidentally came into some work and then gives people terrible advice that doesn’t account for all the happenstance that got them there…!

    1. SometimesALurker*

      It’s not my field, either, but my field sort of overlaps with technical writing sometimes, so here are my thoughts for what they’re worth. If he can afford to get another internship with a tech/science communication or tech/science education organization, that might be his best bet, and then he can talk with his peers and his more experienced colleagues there about what the next step may be. If he’s already had some positions like this, he might reach out to them for advice, as well.

  193. Me*

    I wish I had something awesome to report, but I don’t.

    TempagencywithaK called me with one thing. It was a three-month leave of absence cover. But it was more of a manager position and had a lot more math than I was comfortable with, especially since the listing was adamant that the person doing it had to have exemplary attention to detail. Blergh.

    That job I interviewed for a couple of weeks ago took down the posting this week. They said it would be a couple of weeks, and it has been, but this is a holiday weekend so I expect a rejection email (if they bother to send one :P) next week. Nobody in St. Louis or out of state has bothered to contact me, but my Google Voice number is getting lots of spam calls! :P *blockblockblockityblock* Nobody else here has called me, either. There hasn’t been anything else to apply to all week, except I did find one generic office job for a manufacturer and sent my resume and a very generic cover letter. There are at least four jobs reposted that I applied to and didn’t hear from, but I’m not going to reapply; clearly, they don’t want me.

    Sunday is my birthday so I guess I’ll just go see Alien: Covenant and maybe dive into this project management course I got on Mediabistro (they had a huge sale). No other plans for the weekend because it’s a family holiday and everybody goes out of town/to the lake/to relatives. We’re supposed to have severe weather on Saturday (hail to the size of baseballs, which I have literally never seen in my lifetime). If I’m lucky, a tornado will pick up my house and slam it down in California!

    2. Trixie*

      If I remember correctly, you mentioned your family may be able to help sell the house but you didn’t want to bring them into it. I hear what you’re saying but it may be worth considering. Sounds like the job market isn’t going to change but if you can unload the house you can move to better market with more/better opportunities. So tough dealing with a house.

      My situation isn’t identical at all but I realized I’ve been in this place for almost five years. Far longer than I wanted or planned, and it just sped by. I don’t want another five years to get passed me.

    3. Blanche*

      Happy birthday for Sunday. Have a lovely day. Buy yourself something nice. Good luck with the job hunting – there is something around the corner, just for you. It has to be ‘your time’ sometime…

  194. nep*

    Handled something badly at work over the past couple of months. Feeling slighted by higher-ups sort of blinded me to the fact that I was acting a bit unprofessionally. Not even blinded, really, because in my gut I knew the whole time. But I let myself act badly. Nothing horrible — just less professional than I want to be.
    I know I’m being vague here. No need to go into detail. I really just wanted to ‘state’ this to someone, as there’s no one I can really talk with about it at this point. Just a vent. And — after all — live and learn. I certainly am taking lessons from it. (One of them — yet another reinforcement of Listen. To. Your. Gut.) Onward and Upward.
    Thanks, AAM community.

      1. nep*

        Thank you.
        I can’t change the past, but I can control how I move forward and how I conduct myself from here on out.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Well done for recognising this. Some people never do! It takes real guts to admit to yourself that you’ve been acting less professionally than you’d like and that it’s not just an inevitable consequence of whatever ticked you off. Huge props to you.

  195. long time lurker*

    Lately, I’ve been wondering, how much does your dollar impact on a company impact a salary? Is there a standard, or does it depend? I’m in a position where I can clearly see how much money I make for my company, and it’s much more than my salary. On one hand, it makes sense, because you want to hire employees to be more profitable. But is there a line? If you’re bringing in, say, $500K, would it be normal to get paid a $50K salary? Completely made up numbers, btw. I was wondering is there’s a certain “percentage” it’s normal for an employee to take home.
    (Asking about the norm here, not about what’s fair or what should be the case.)

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Well, the thing is that you may be bringing in a certain amount of money for the company, but there are plenty of essential roles that don’t do this directly. (e.g. accounting, HR, etc). I used to be someone who billed our client for my hours because I was producing the actual work my company did, but the hours we billed the client had to pay for everybody’s salary, not just mine. I’m not sure if my salary was 10% of what I made for the company each year, but it was likely somewhere around there.

    2. Mrs. Fenris*

      In my field, my salary is traditionally supposed to be 22-25% of what I bring in to the company. Some companies actually calculate this number and just pay that percentage, more companies pay a base salary plus a bonus based on production, and a few companies don’t worry about the exact number as long as the books look OK.

  196. Gingerbread*

    How do you avoid answering specific questions about your business? When friends, family, coworkers ask me questions like how much we do in sales, etc., it feels too personal. How can I avoid answering without coming off rude?

    1. Amber Rose*

      “We do well enough to be comfortable.”
      “I’m pretty happy with how things are going.”
      “I’m no millionaire, but I’d say things are going well.”

      1. Gingerbread*

        I’ve tried saying something along these lines, but they insist on knowing a number. I think they’re genuinely curious since they’re sort of in the same line of business, but it still makes me a bit uncomfortable.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          “I’ll forgive you for asking if you’ll forgive me for not answering.”

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m confused – are the coworkers not in the same business? or are you freelance?

    3. Kiwi*

      Sorry, I’d tell you if I could but the company wants me to keep that confidential.

  197. Jadelyn*

    I just got the email – my degree has been officially conferred!

    I want to thank my team – in particular, the 3 out of 4 members who have been part of this from the beginning and who have all acted as mentors to me. (Coworker #4 is a lovely person and great emotional support, but isn’t enough senior to me or with the right kind of experience to offer a mentorship relationship, and also she only started here last year.) I have an email open forwarding the official degree conferral letter and adding my thank-you to the group, but am wondering if I should go with physical thank-you cards instead, or in addition – but I really like the group thank-you I wrote and I’m not sure I could phrase it as well if I tailored to each individual. What do you guys think?

  198. MsChanandlerBong*

    I have a workers’ comp question. Does it only cover duties that you are supposed to be doing as part of your job, or does it cover any injury that occurs at work? Let’s say you’re a secretary at a hospital. Your job duties include transcription, answering the phone, sending faxes, and doing other clerical tasks. One day, you process a pathology specimen because no one else is around to do it. You cut yourself on a piece of equipment and need stitches. Does workers’ comp cover your treatment, or would your claim be denied because processing the specimen is not in your job description and you weren’t supposed to be doing it?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Pretty sure it covers anything that happens on the job, including slip & fall type injuries.

    2. Jadelyn*

      I believe workers comp varies a bit by state, so check with your state’s labor board, but my understanding is that at least in California it covers any injury “arising out of, or occurring during the course of, employment activities.” That includes both directly job-related injuries, and injuries taking place while you’re on the clock but not related to your work. In CA it even includes if you fall in the parking lot (in most cases anyway) coming into or leaving from work. So I would say that your example should qualify for workers comp – but, again, I’m in California, and we often differ pretty drastically from how things are done elsewhere, so check your state’s requirements.

    3. Red Reader*

      I’ve seen workers comp (in Washington state) cover a claim for a construction worker who literally tested positive for five different illegal substances (including meth and PCP), chased his coworker across a third story room with an electric saw because the coworker was possessed, got yanked around when he hit the end of the saw’s cord, and fell off the roof.

  199. Elizabeth West*

    Hahaha, I’m watching Judge Judy, which I do when I’m not working, and I just saw a Downy fabric softener commercial where people’s clothing had the name of the odors they were exuding on their shirts (smells like a campfire, gym stink, etc.). One of them, in an office, said, “Just microwaved fish.” :)

    1. emma2*

      Ha I’ve seen this commercial and immediately thought about this site when I did!

  200. Fresh Faced*

    I hate applications where I have to upload a CV and Cover Letter, then immediately fill out a form that repeats all the information on my CV and cover letter. I hate them so very, very much.

  201. Rena*

    I’ve worked pretty much half my life, from a young age. These past few years, I’ve been finding it harder and harder to feel satisfaction from my work. I just turned 30 and realize in the past 3-4 jobs I worked, I left burnt out or something approaching a burn out. I started every job very optimistically, enthusiastically, and yet it doesn’t seem to be enough. I hit the two year mark and I have this sense that I’m not getting satisfaction from work. I do feel I am happy in my personal life, so I’m not sure if anyone encounters this same issue.

    1. JulieBulie*

      I think many people encounter this. Probably most people experience it from time to time, and for sure there are some who feel that way about their jobs most of their lives.

      It’s great when a job is fulfilling and satisfying, but that might not mean much if the rest of your life is not. It’s much better to have a satisfying personal life that is funded by a blah job, then to have a great job but nothing else to be happy about, nothing to look forward to going home to, etc.

      That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t want and hope and look for something better, but don’t lose sight of the fact that a blah job is still better than a lot of the jobs you read about on this site!

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I am struggling mightily with this right now as well. Part of it is that the job I took was more due to necessity (live in expensive COL area, had severe back injury/pain at the time and was unsure how long it would take for it to resolve, needed a less stressful job in order to get healthy and achieve some other things in my private life) and while yes, its working out how I intended, I still have been feeling anxious as its in an area I would never otherwise be working in and Im reaching a point of starting to consider a time for change in my career.

      Ive started thinking of this as more of a “bridge” job – a way to best enable change personally and professionally in the most optimal manner for the shortest amount of time. But that doesnt mean that a lot of time I dont also struggle with the anxiety of lack of satisfaction and growth. Probably time to start working on gratefulness and perspective!

  202. Nynaeve*

    Any tips on finding good speakers and trainers for conferences? I’m now head of a committee in charge of continuing education and I have no idea how to go about it.

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        Check with professional organizations in your industry; they may have a speakers bureau or suggestions for experts.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      On top of the good suggestions already given, look at the types of companies and organisations who will be attending – and look at similar conferences run by other organisations to see what they did.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        For the first part, I meant that you could invite speakers from those other orgs.

  203. not your editor*

    I have a CV question:

    I was hired by Sleazy Teapot Co to review and edit all new and updated teapot product descriptions. After a year, I moved internally to an unrelated job in a different department, much more in line with my career goals. I was told that they would soon find someone else to do my previous job but in the meantime I’d need to keep doing it but could lower my standards (e.g. only fixing clear errors, not improving awkward or ambiguous wording) to save time. I agreed to this with the caveat that if I was still reviewing product descriptions in 6 months, I would quit. I was, and I did (with nothing lined up, sigh).

    My CV currently has an entry like this:

    Sleazy Teapots
    Junior Teapot Engineer mm/yyyy-mm/yyyy
    * Technical Duty #1
    * Technical Duty #2
    * Reviewed product listings
    Teapot Copy Editor mm/yyyy-mm/yyyy
    * Reviewed and edited product listings

    Would it be ethical for me to remove the last bullet point under the Junior Teapot Engineer heading? I’m concerned that it leads employers to underestimate my technical skills, and it’s not part of what my job was supposed to be, and I have better things I could do with that line, but at the same time it was a big chunk of my duties so perhaps leaving it out would be misleading.

    1. Zathras*

      I think that would be fine Your resume is a marketing document. You don’t have to list every duty you performed while in a given role. You pick the really important ones and the ones that would be of interest to the potential new employer.

      Plus, it sounds like those duties aren’t actually related to the Junior Teapot Engineer position at all, you were just still doing it on the side until they hired someone else.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Plus, you’ve already got reviewing product listings under your copy editor position. There’s no need to list it twice, especially if it’s not something you want to emphasize.

  204. WG*

    Question about phone interviews. I’m on a hiring committee and we are attempting to schedule a few phone interviews with candidates. In my experience in the past, all of the hiring committee members gathered in one room to call the candidate. For this committee, it has been suggested by one of the members that each committee member could be in a separate location and we all conference in to the call.

    I’m really not thrilled with this idea. I feel as if I would be losing the visual communication with the other committee members – both for the flow of the interview and for gauging their reactions to the candidate’s responses.

    Am I being too rigid or old fashioned?

    1. Fictional Butt*

      I think having everyone in the same room would be ideal, but the whole point of a phone interview is that you don’t have to expend the time and effort to be in the same place. So I can see where your coworker is coming from.

    2. KR*

      Is there a conference room with a phone capable of conference calls? You could say, “For those who prefer visual communication, I will be calling in from conference room B. I prefer this myself because I feel the interview will flow better and I’ll be able to gauge everyone’s reactions.” Then again, gauging reactions could be done over the phone after the call.

    3. Trixie*

      What about video conferencing? We use Spark Hire but I’m sure there are other options.

    4. JulieBulie*

      I don’t think you’re being too rigid if all the committee members work in the same building or adjoining buildings.

      If some of the people would have to drive to your location, though, then I can definitely see their point. It takes me ten minutes just to get from my desk to my car, five minutes to get to the other office, and then another five minutes to get to the meeting room. (On a nice day, we walk; it takes about the same amount of time.) So any time I go to a meeting over there, that’s 40 minutes lost to travel time. Sometimes it is worth it, but I’m not sure if I’d feel that way about a phone call.

  205. Oh Fed*

    A new opportunity has opened up for me at my organization but I am conflicted about making the move.
    I have 20+ of service with my org and in my current role for about 15. Chief of my division is an awful/in over his head manager and my immediate supervisor is volatile–to others but never to me. The people that work at my level are mostly distracted by personal problems and there are performance and attendance issues that never get addressed. The positives are that I still strongly believe in the mission of our org and get tremendous satisfaction from our work, I get tons of words of encouragement and I have a terrific officemate and work space.
    So the new role will continue a small portion of my current work but the bigger part is to launch a new program which seems exciting to me. I won’t have to pick up for the slackers anymore and I won’t work for the current bosses though I will continue to interact with all of them.
    Okay the problems: the new boss has his own issues. He has made some preliminary comments that are weirdly possessive (he is “taking me away” from toxic boss…he always told me that one day I would work for him…) and made me uncomfortable. I spoke up and told him so. I am also concerned that with my years of service that’s I am not left out to dry should the org not opt to proceed with the program. I planned to spend my career at this org. Potential new boss took those seriously when I brought them up. Lastly, I want to remain in my current office. At first that didn’t seem to be an issue but yesterday potential new boss came in and said the weird possessive stuff and then said he was going to “upset the nest” meaning take me out of my office. The whole tone was awful. He also told me that current boss is refusing to release me and bragged that he blocked a previous attempt I made this year to leave for another position (told that manager that I was too valuable to him to be interviewed for the other position).
    I feel in some ways that this is my best/only opportunity to move on which I very much want. Current job is why I googled “toxic boss” in 2012 and found AAM… But, wow…new boss might just be worse!

    1. JulieBulie*

      I don’t like the sound of NewBoss at all. I mean, you told him how you felt about his weird possessive streak but he’s still continuing to talk to you that way. He is not respecting your boundaries. It also sounds as though he may have a little bit of a problematic ego, too. How long do you think you can listen to him brag about obnoxious behavior, blocking your efforts to go to another manager, upsetting the nest, I shudder to think what else?

      Think of it this way: if things don’t work out in this new position and you decide you want to leave, what are the odds that he’ll let his prize possession slip away from him? Would he do something sneaky to blow your chances? He already bragged that he blocked your previous transfer attempt.

      No way is this your best or only opportunity to move on. It might be the only one in sight right now, but there really are a million other fish in the sea, and some of them are pretty good. Don’t give up, but think twice before you jump out of that frying pan.

      1. Oh Fed*

        Hahaha…I am a federal employee: security for my family –I’m not leaving after 20+ years. And my mission org + who we serve is honorable and satisfying. I just work with some jerks.

  206. Master Bean Counter*

    I am the third wheel/mediator/kindergarten teacher to my boss and his boss. It’s one hour before I leave for the long weekend. This day can not end soon enough!

  207. ???*

    What do managers expect when they refuse to acknowledge that someone was let go? Like, seriously, what are they hoping the person’s coworkers will gain from lacking that information?

    I’m pretty sure my coworker was fired last week, but no one will acknowledge that in any way. Was I supposed to just not notice that the person who was on all the same projects as me and sat two feet away from me seems to be mysteriously and permanently absent now?

    Honestly, if she’s gone, it’s a relief, because she was terrible. It just would be nice to know for sure. I don’t need to know whether she quit or was fired or what, it’s just that the basic question of whether or not she still works here is kind of pertinent information for me since we work(ed) together every single day!

    1. Zathras*

      That’s really weird. Have you asked your manager? If you’ve literally been told nothing, you can play dumb and say something like: “Hey, Jane has been a whole week, is everything OK? Is there a timeline for when she’ll be back? I need to know whether I should pick up her tasks on Project X, which needs to be done soon.”

      Replace the last sentence with whatever makes sense in your context. It should at least get you an answer about whether Jane is gone forever or not.

      1. ???*

        Thanks, maybe I’ll do that. Probably better than asking directly and looking callous if it turns out she’s just on vacation or something.

        I’m also relieved to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks this is weird! I was worried I was just out of touch with workplace norms or something. Because this isn’t a one-time thing at this company. I’ve seen the same pattern at least twice before in the six months I’ve been working here: X is a relatively new hire who is struggling at their work. Then one week, X isn’t scheduled to come in. Then after several days of absence, X shows up in the middle of the day solely to talk to a manager and then leave, never to be heard from or acknowledged again. This has happened at least three times since I started working here half a year ago. These are always people where it’s pretty obvious why the person might have been let go, so it’s not like knowing they were fired would make me fear for my job. But the total radio silence regarding their absence is just so weird. In fact, it’s mostly the conspicuous LACK of mention of the person that makes it clear they’re not just on vacation or whatever, because if someone is temporarily out, that’s always communicated to their team.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Yes, it’s weird. Unfortunately it’s not rare. My place did acknowledge when they let multiple people go all at once, but whenever it’s just one person they never say anything. So it’s like, “um, hey, is Jane coming back? Because I won’t take her trackball if you say she’s coming back.”

          1. ???*

            Hm, so it is common. I just wonder why anyone would choose this course of action. Like, people are obviously going to notice if their coworker isn’t showing up for work anymore. You’re not fooling anyone. I guess it avoids having to communicate an awkward message… at the cost of sowing confusion and uncertainty.

    2. Rebecca*

      If she was terrible, and she was left go (vs quit on her own), at least you’d know your managers will step up and act to rectify problems on your team, right?

    3. The Foreign Octopus*

      That’s weird. Really weird.

      The only experience I’ve had with something like that was on the other end of the spectrum. My ex-boss and colleague came back from a meeting and right there in the middle of the office, with Tommen standing next to him, ex-boss told us all that Tommen would no longer be working with us and he was leaving (it was the middle of the day). It wasn’t really a shock that Tommen was let go as we all knew that he hadn’t been performing well since he had started (recruitment being a fiendishly difficult field) but it was the way that the ex-boss came in and said it just after lunch.

      It left me and another colleague feeling very sick and a little shaky about how it had been handled. I wish that ex-boss had waited until Tommen had left and then told us, or maybe spoken to Tommen at the end of the day and told us in the morning meeting.

      It was just weird and not great. Particularly because Tommen was pale as a ghost and clearly smiling to make us all think that everything was fine. I always think about him driving home after that and how that must have felt but yeah…management don’t seem to handle the aftermath of a firing well.

  208. emma2*

    Poll: Why do offices have to be air-conditioned like refrigerators or those places designed to store corpses? Is there a conspiracy to freeze corporate employees and harvest their organs???

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think the temperature in offices is designed to be comfortable to men wearing three piece suits.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        It isn’t only men or those in three piece suits that want the temperature to be at cold-storage levels. You get the same from women of a certain age.

        1. Red Reader*

          At my old organization, I was the only person in the department that wasn’t a woman going through menopause. They literally took masking tape and marked the thermostat “comfortable during a hot flash” :P (Meanwhile, I was wearing multiple sweaters and a blanket.)

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      Short answer: Yes.

      Longer answer: Over the winter I had a job in a relatively new building. My department was located right by a stairway with an exterior door. The stairway was not heated, and some bright soul felt the best way to prevent frozen pipes was to keep the stairway door open. Every time someone entered or exited the building through the adjacent door, a rush of cold air would come through our department, and some of it would make its way to my legs. We eventually fought to get a space heater in the stairway, and then again for permission to keep the stairway door closed. So while I’m not sure if harvesting organs was in the plan, there was definitely a plot to freeze the corporate employees.

    3. Trixie*

      Agreed. On the flip side, why do my female coworkers insist on wearing practically slip dresses on a cold day? Or when they can expect a/c in the office? My cubicle mate runs a space heater pretty much every day so she can learn light dresses and bare legs.

    4. Rebecca*

      Can I switch offices with you? I share an office with 2 people posing as people, but I am convinced they’re actually lizard people in disguise. It is usually 80 degrees and stuffy in our office, and they have personal heaters at their feet. It’s awful. I have two fans now, and I’m uncomfortable every day. And it’s actually COOLER in there than before I moved in! At some times, it was near 90 and they loved it. They’ve shut off the air conditioning vent most of the way and whine about how cold they are if the temperature is normal.

      Personally, I think a standard temperature of around 74 is fair. I like my job and the actual working parts, but I don’t like sharing an office with these two. Unfortunately, my managers said I’m not getting moved anytime soon. So, it’s getting to the point where I’ll be wearing shorts and moisture wicking tees pretty soon!

  209. Naruto*

    I was approached by an external legal recruiter about a job at a law firm halfway across the country. It sounds like the job would be a great opportunity, and it’s in a city where I’ve always been interested in living.

    BUT. My wife and I just bought a house where we currently live. And we don’t think we want to move. We can’t say 100% for sure, though — if the interviews continue and it seems like my dream job, and we can afford to live in expensive new city, we will definitely consider it seriously. I had a phone screening interview but have not flown out for an in-person interview yet.

    Do you all think I’m ethically in the clear about continuing with the application process for this job? If it were in town it would be easy — I would want the job, but also, I’d be fine interviewing for a job that I wasn’t sure about. But does it matter that I’m not sure about the move instead, and there would be interview expenses borne by the employer?

    I’d appreciate any input on what I should do!

    1. KR*

      I think as long as there’s a chance you would take the job, you should go for it! They approached you, so there’s a chance they’re willing to offer you relocation assistance! Just be on the look out for clues – if it seems like it’s too good to be true, it might be and you wouldn’t want to move and regret it.

    2. SometimesALurker*

      I think that if you’d be fine interviewing for a local job you’re not sure about, it’s also fine to interview for a job that would require a move that you’re not sure about — in both instances, you need more information from them about whether it would be a good fit for you, and the way to get that information is by interviewing.

  210. Snazzy Hat*

    I GOT THE JOB!!! And it all started from a job fair! The day after my second in-person interview, I received the call for the offer. Today I got the additional call from HR saying my drug test and background check passed so I’m officially an employee rather than conditionally.

    The real emotional part of this can be summed up by what my sister asked when I gave her the news: “So, you won’t be temping anymore?” Folks, I have had six temp jobs in the past four years. My non-temp jobs have been in retail. This is the first time I will have the same badge as everyone else and an official name plate at my desk and my own phone number. There will be no obvious divide between me and my co-workers.

    I cried when I got that call.

    {spreads good-luck glitter to everyone}

    2. JulieBulie*

      It’s so nice to read some good news! Congratulations! And thank you for sharing the good-luck glitter.

  211. Accidental Analyst*

    Late to the party but if there are any Excel gurus around I’d love to get some help.

    Boss has had me design a report. I’ve been able to do most of it (use the indirect function to pull in data from an extra tab and previous month tab, add slicers to the table to make it easier to filter, create a dashboard that updates based on the month selected). The problem I’m having is with the pivot table. Based on what he wanted for the dashboard I did a pivot table and chart with slicers. I’ve used tabular format for the pivot as it puts the info on the one line instead of separate lines for each variable. This has also added filter headings. The headings work fine to filter. The problem is that only the first column will sort. I’ve tried googling but that come up with not sorting properly not not sorting at all. I’ve tried the suggested fixes (turning off automatic sorting on the columns, manually sorting) but nothing’s working. Any thoughts?

    In the meantime I’ll see if I can work out how to get a normal chart to update based on slicers.

  212. Moment of clarity*

    I had my monthly meeting with my boss. While he comes from the “teapot manufacturing” side of the house and I’m in charge of “teapot design”, we’ve always gotten along well. He’s approved all of my projects, has never held it against me if a project failed, and in general, has allowed my team to be very self-directed. But in today’s meeting, we talked about an unexpected funding source that had come up, and when I said, “wow, there are lots of opportunities-“ he just looked puzzled and said, “Well, of course it will go to the teapot manufacturing team.” Later, when I asked for some ideas for the future direction of my team, he acted very uncomfortable- not in a way that I fear for my team, but more in a “I have no ideas for your team” way. It made me realize that what I saw as trust in me and my team was more a total lack of interest in what we do. It’s a rather depressing epiphany…

    1. SometimesALurker*

      Ugh! I hope that you’re able to continue to take advantage of the good parts of the self-directed atmosphere. It’s still demoralizing to know your boss doesn’t care.

  213. AnnaleighUK*

    Creepy ex-colleague woes! One of the guys I used to work with, who I never liked much and always made me feel uncomfortable when we were out on site inspections, has taken to ‘liking’ everything I do on social media. We aren’t friends on Facebook but that annoying thing it does where you can see what your friends have liked means that he can see my posts and is liking them. I’m not sure if there is a way to stop it in settings or something but anyway. He’s liking posts on my Instagram and Twitter from years ago, specifically everything to do with triathlons. Can you block people on Instagram? I’m not good with social apps, bit of a dinosaur when it comes to that…

    Anyway, aside from the social media creeping, on Thursday this week I was with my new boss at a site inspection (we’re building inspectors) and my boss said to me ‘oh by the way, we had someone named Fergus Mush (obvs not his real name) phone and ask for your direct line and email’ and I was like ‘what?’ cuz he’s the creeper! He was odd when we worked together but I just dismissed him as a bit of a weirdo and kind of ignored him but if he’s phoning my new company and asking for ways to get in touch, what can I do? I’m easily findable on Linkedin too but I haven’t updated it since I switched jobs.

    I don’t like creepy old colleagues. It kind of makes me shudder!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      You can indeed block people on all those social media platforms and without being friends first – I can’t tell you how as there are different instructions depending if you’re on a computer, app, etc but Google will tell you.

      What you need to do is search for block, the name of the social media platform and the name of the computer system or device you are using. This will pull up step by step instructions.

      For example:
      “Block Instagram Windows”
      “Block Facebook iPhone”

    2. Consultant*

      I’m quite sure you can change the corresponding setting on FB. Not sure about Instagram and Twitter, but then the point of them is probably to have as many likes as possible, isn’t it?

      With the call – are you sure it was him? What makes you think it was definitely him and not a recruiter or some other person? Btw, in no company I’ve worked for a random person calling and asking for a employee’s number would get it.

      Btw2, I’ve already had recruiters contacting me on my private email address I’ve never given to them. I guess they guessed it and checked on linkedin, whether they can find me by searching by it. And I also had recruiters who guessed my work email seeing where I work.

      If it wasn’t him I guess there’s no problem. The thing that he likes your posts shouldn’t be that scary. If it was him, I don’t know, I would probably contact him on his work email, which you probably still remember or via fb, and asked him why he was trying to contact you making it clear in the course of the conversation that you don’t wish to be contacted.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Okay I know you mean well, but saying it “shouldn’t be that scary” isn’t particularly helpful – this person made her uncomfortable and if she is scared or uncomfortable now she is having this reaction for a reason. Implying that someone’s feelings are wrong can discourage from seeking advice and help.

        I think it would be surprising if this didn’t feel weird and creepy. That is a natural reaction. Explaining all this away isn’t going to help. And no, the point of social media isn’t to have as many likes as possible.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        And no, don’t ASK anything. It might be an idea to contact him once to say you don’t want him to contact you again but do not ask him questions.

        Consultant, I know it’s well intentioned but following your advice could make this situation worse.

        1. Consultant*

          I’m not implying her feelings are wrong. I’m suggesting that taking a step back and getting a realistic view of what is going on is the best solution for now. Because being focused ONLY on one’s emotions and not on rational facts (in the post only two are mentioned: “a former coworker I never liked is liking my old posts/ all my new posts on social media”; “someone called me and I don’t know who that was”) can frequently obscure the solution instead of helping.

          Also, I find your reaction to my post over the top. I’ve actually spent years dealing professionally with the subject of violence and security.

          And yes, I’ve already been in situations like that several times myself. A few times it turned out that it was a misunderstanding or a technology failure.

          It might be that the author is being stalked. Then specific actions should be taken. But it also can be that it’s just a misunderstanding. And liking some of one’s posts is far from being a sign of stalking, sorry. That’s why I suggested she make sure that it was him who called – calling under a false pretence is much more alarming than just liking someone’s posts.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            I’m sorry you’ve had similar experiences, but you’re misrepresenting what she said. She said a former coworker who always made her uncomfortable is liking very old posts and that he rang her work asking for her information. That’s different to what you paraphrased up there.

          2. Observer*

            If you’ve been dealing with this for years, you should actually know that you gave her very bad advice. For one thing, unless a person has a history of paranoia, their “gut” is almost always the first, and most solid, indicator of trouble. Insisting on “objective facts” is often how victims of violence get shit down till it’s late.

            As for the advice to contact him and ASK him- that’s terrible advice for the simple reason that there is no upside whatsoever, and the potential downside is huge. Even if he gives her some “acceptable” reason, that doesn’t change anything. But it CAN lead to further problems. So why should she even consider it?

      3. Tribute Band*

        I think you missed the part of the post where she said he gave his name when he called, so yeah, it was him and she knows it was him. You seem to be missing stuff in your rush to invalidate her feelings about being creeped on.

        1. AnnaleighUK*

          The person who took the call didn’t give my direct dial or my email address as it’s not policy to do that, all enquiries need to be directed to our enquiries at companyname dot com email address, so that’s fine, and we have a weird email address format for staff names so he can’t work it out. I had coffee this morning with an old colleague of mine and mentioned what had happened and she was like ‘ew really? I’ll tell Old Manager’ so hopefully she’s going to get that stopped. I’m just wondering, why me? I left at the end of April and Creepy Colleague just gave me the usual ‘good luck, we will miss you’ handshake on my last day. So this is weird. I don’t know if it’s because I have now added some people from Old Job as friends on Facebook and he wonders why I didn’t add him (because he’s a creep, obviously) so he thinks by ‘liking’ the stuff that’s obviously showing up because people who are friends with him are liking it that I’m going to add him or something. He is just a creepy guy. I worked at my last place for a looong time and he’s always vibed as creepy. We will see! I’ll keep you all posted. But it’s a bizarre way to try and keep in touch with me, if that’s his intention. Not that I want to but honestly, just shoot me a DM on Twitter or something, don’t creep…

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Oh my. I’ve just reread your post and seen the bit about the phone call. I’m sorry, I was focused on the technical side. This guy creeped you out. Trust your gut. Tell your employer – they need to know that this guy is a problem. Block him on all social media including LinkedIn. He’s making you shudder because he is invading your boundaries.

      I assume from your username that you are in the UK. Please consider calling 101 and talking to the police. We have fairly new, good laws including the Protection from Harassment Act and these days the police have a much better understanding of stalking. I know someone could argue that he hasn’t done anything, but he’s behaving a bit strangely and you understandably feel uncomfortable – the police can offer advice and in my experience will take this seriously and do a risk assessment. You could also talk to the Suzy Lamplugh Trust. It is worth getting help and advice now.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        Thanks – I think for now I’ll block him and see if he does anything more weird. I’m thinking of him as just a strange little person for now, although the fact he called my new job was a bit odd. I know he doesn’t know where I live. It just seemed so peculiar after we barely interacted at work because he was so weird, you know those people you just avoid? He was one of them.

        Housemate 1 is going to get us one of those doorbells that shows you who’s at the door and Housemate 2 has a brother on the police force so I will be having a word in case anything beyond social media and inappropriate phone calls happens. Thanks again!

    4. Nieve*

      Ew :( this sounds terrible
      You can change the settings on your facebook posts to be ‘visible only to friends’, if you dont want to make it too obvious that youve blocked him. I would personally change the whole privacy setting on facebook so that your account has limited access/visibility to people who are not directly friends with you. If you want the other ‘likes’ from other ‘friends of friends’ on your posts though (as mentioned by someone) I cant really help..
      You can definitely block someone on instagream :) google will show you the exact steps to take

  214. Chaordic One*

    I also had an interview this past week. The job was a bit different from the posted description. Actually it was much better than it was described with a lot more variety, although I was a bit worried that there was the potential that over time it could evolve into a mess because the company is going to be in growth mode for the next several years. I really liked the interviewers and especially the one who would have been my immediate supervisor. I felt like I would have been a good fit for the culture.

    The only thing I was a bit worried about was not having more advanced-level Excel skills, although I think I would have been fine. I recently learned that I was actually using a lot of fairly advanced Excel functions, but I didn’t know what they were officially called, which was more of a vocabulary problem.

    Then I got a rejection email about 24 hours after the interview. I was a bit surprised by the quick rejection. I hadn’t gotten around to sending thank you emails. I’m wondering if I should still do so. I suppose it wouldn’t hurt. It was one of the better interviews I’ve been on and they really were very professional, no bizarre questions like, “what kind of an animal would you be?”

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Sorry you didn’t get it. I think you should send the thank you – do a really nice gracious one. After all, you may have come a very close second and it may help them keep you in mind for something else.

    2. Zathras*

      Yes, sending a brief, gracious follow up / thank you is a good idea. I know it seems like they rejected you really quickly but it’s entirely possible you were just the last person to interview in this round. It doesn’t mean they hated you. A nice, professional follow-up can help cement you in their mind as “that person we liked a lot who we’d love to hire in a different role” if they are leaning that way anyway.

  215. Need a New Name (formerly Mander)*

    So, I have an interview on Tuesday for a job that I also interviewed for almost exactly a year ago. Given the nature and rarity of the job I was really surprised that it came again so soon. In all honesty I have not really done much of anything to improve my experience in the intervening period. I did a few short-term contract jobs and a two-week volunteer stint in my field, but I have been unemployed since December and mostly working on political advocacy stuff as a volunteer (which is not my field at all). So I don’t really rate my chances of getting it this time around very highly.

    Last time the main reason they say they didn’t hire me is because I basically bombed an in-person assessment. It was a task that I had never done before and I knew I screwed up immediately so it was no big surprise. So of course this weekend I’m reviewing how to do it so I can hopefully do a better job if they ask me to do the task again (it wasn’t mentioned in the job posting this year). I’m also reading up a bit on things like the legislative framework and other relevant stuff.

    I talked to an acquaintance who is working in the department and he had a bit of an anonymous chat with them on my behalf, and they told him that they would no doubt remember me and not necessarily expect that I have done a lot of work to dramatically improve in the last year. But I still feel super inadequate! Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? How did you handle any questions about how you have improved since the last interview if you haven’t really?

    1. The Foreign Octopus*

      Not a similar experience but I’m familiar with the feeling of not improving as much as I would have hoped (learning a second language in my new country).

      You have the advantage here in that you’re familiar with the interview process, possible questions they might ask, and the in-person assessment. You’re doing the right thing by reading up on everything but I’d go one further – look online and see if you can find appropriate practice materials (not always possible but definitely worth a look).

      As for the question you asked, I would try something like “In my last interview with you, I became aware of areas that I wasn’t as strong in as I hoped and I have taken steps to deepen my knowledge and understanding of X.”

      Be prepared to explain what steps such as reading trade journals/articles, speaking with people, YouTube/Lynda tutorials, TED Talks, practice tests. Anything that you’ve done, find a way to list them and, if you’ve got the time, actually do some of the above.

      Hope this helps, and good luck!

  216. Adjunct Gal*

    So I finally was able to score a new job! No more adjuncting for me (so I probably need a new handle). It’s a real full-time gig that will use and expand my skill set exponentially! I’m so excited.

    But what to wear on my first day? It’s a smaller business with mostly men wearing jeans and button-down shirts. The one woman in the office wears black pants, a t-shirt, and cardigan, while the woman in the packaging and shipping dept wears a company branded t-shirt and jeans. I’m not going to be working in the office constantly, but this is a bit more casual a workplace than I’m used to. Any advice?

    1. overeducated*

      Congrats! I hope you like the new job! I’m curious what field it is in.

      In a workplace where men wear jeans and button-ups, I find that women can wear either the exact equivalent, or that pretty much anything that isn’t literally a t-shirt and jeans will seem equally formal. Even denim pants in a different color and a shirt that is a *little* nicer than a t-shirt (different cut or material), or any blouse or sweater. I tend to over-dress for the first week or so to play it safe and observe what others wear, though.

    2. Nieve*

      I would personally say dark denim and a formal blouse (high neckline, neutral colours, relatively simple design etc)?

  217. overeducated*

    This is a really late so maybe no one will see this…but it’s a cry for help!

    When you’re applying for a job that has aspects of both academic and industry (i.e. your research record and publications are relevant, but so are your years of non-academic work experience), do you use a CV or a resume? And if you use a CV, how much do you include and in what order?

    My regular resume is just:
    Education
    Non-academic experience in Target Field
    Skills (2 lines, languages and software)

    My academic CV is structured:
    Education
    Research Interests
    Publications
    Conference presentations
    Invited Lectures
    Awards & fellowships
    Non-academic experience in Target Field
    Non-academic experience in Adjacent Field
    Teaching experience
    Professional development

    For this I think I need a more robust CV-type one, since my subject matter experience from research is highly, highly relevant, but I’m not sure how much to include and in what order.

    I plan to exclude “research interests” and “teaching experience” from my non-academic CV, but should I also exclude “conference presentations,” “invited lectures,” and “non-academic experience from Adjacent Field,” which is not required for this job but tends to be an interesting conversation starter? Should I put the relevant work experience BEFORE the publications and such? Halp! This application is really important to me and I have no clue what to do!

    1. Need a New Name (formerly Mander)*

      Can you reduce your conference presentations etc to a line or two, instead of listing them all separately? And maybe only list your most impressive publications in some kind of abbreviated citation format? Even though your academic expertise is relevant I think that for a non-academic job it’s probably overkill to list everything like you would for an academic job.

      I think I’d put all the experience before publications etc in any case. And the adjacent field stuff if it is actually helpful to the job, but if it’s just a conversation starter I think I’d keep it short or leave it out, perhaps.

  218. Nieve*

    Not a question but just wanted to say…
    I’ve been finding excellent reading materials on this blog for about 2 weeks now and I’ve been thoroughly enjoying it!
    But when I see some old posts I also see some commenters *complaining* about Alison replying to and posting a question that was similar in nature to a number of other questions. Like “You’ve answered this kind of question multiple times before, can you please stop? People here already know the answer? Can you answer my questions instead?”. These really rub me the wrong way. You are being provided with FREE knowledge, with opportunities to ask specific questions for FREE, and opportunities to have discussions with other job-seekers/HR managers about topics of your choice for FREE. Its terrible that some people feel so self-entitled to even complain about the contents of Alisons posts, rather than being grateful. You know what they say… the more you give to someone the more they want. Please, before making your negative thoughts (in regards to how the blog should be run, what should be posted etc) known, take a step back and ask yourself ‘do I even have the right to be complaining about these?’.

  219. Cascading Carrots*

    I have been trying in vain to find the post where Alison gives the advice to look at a place with toxic culture as if you are studying them. Anyone have an idea?
    I could use it right now because I am in a terribly toxic culture, but in the past few months, I’ve only found three jobs to apply for and I’m not getting anywhere. I would love to just quit, but I have no idea when I’d be able to find work so even though I have the funds to live off for a while, I just can’t bring myself to do it… Sigh

        1. Cascading Carrots*

          Thank you so much – that’s perfect! Also the last link is very helpful – I have been trying to be aware of the unhealthy situations and not let it change my perceptions of normal, but without realising it, I was starting to feel like I was in the wrong for speaking up sometimes and that maybe my manager relationships where I’ve been encouraged to do that previously were the weird ones…

          Will try to apply these principles today in my meeting about workload in a day when my manager has given me 6 meetings- 3 of which were sent only on Friday, but knowing that when a colleague expressed concerns about workload, the manager volunteered him to help another team without removing any of his projects. (And also without knowing how long they’d need him. Six months, apparently, but she doesn’t know yet because she hasn’t asked…)

  220. Mr. Goldstein*

    How do you take it when someone you have rejected for a position in the past continues to reapply at your company for nearly every open position you post every time you post them? Would you be likely to see the person as desperate and perhaps a little unstable and unable to take a hint or would you see it more as they are persistent and really want to work for your organization?

    1. Raven*

      Is this person a college student, recent college grad, or other young person who may be taking advice from their parents that persistence is impressive to employers?

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Yeah, good question. If they’re very early in their career, they may just be acting on bad advice. Later on in their career, and I would definitely take it as “unable to take a hint.”

  221. AWall*

    A bit late to the party here but I thought I’d share my experience/the process of asking for a pay rise in case the real life story helps anyone here. I leaned heavily on Alison’s advice but felt that actual life stories seem to be missing from the internet!

    Firstly, a bit of context; I work for a very small (non-US) company (3 full time staff, 1 part time and a bunch of contractors) as an office manager. Things move slowly here unless someone takes initiative and is proactive so I knew that a ray rise wouldn’t come without me asking for it. But I also knew that I have a good relationship with my boss and that he would be receptive. I have never asked for a pay rise before.

    I was planning to ask for a pay rise at the end of 2016 but my company lost a major client so I knew that asking then would be very tone deaf. I decided to put it off until May – my 2 year anniversary at the company – and see how things were going. By May, the company had picked up some business elsewhere and there are a couple of other deals in the works. So, things were looking better but as I’m not really concretely aware of the company’s financial performance I was still not sure whether the company would be in a position to give me a pay bump. Knowing this, I decided to ask anyway thinking “you never know if you don’t ask.”

    I used the time between 2016 and May to gather a list of the things I was doing that were ‘above-and-beyond’. Although I knew I was doing good work, I was still super surprised at just how many things I was doing (totally recommend doing a list like this even if not planning to ask for a pay rise – it puts your off days in perspective!). And because I had this list I felt very confident that I deserved a raise which helped give me some courage!

    My boss is the CEO and is in the office sporadically so to initiate I sent him an email requesting a meeting to discuss salary. I briefly listed some of my projects and achievements. I also said that I was appreciative to have had the opportunity to work on such a diverse range of projects. He replied with a time to meet.

    I knew the meeting would be fairly casual as that’s his style but I get nervous anyway so I over-prepared, just in case. I printed out some samples of the work I’d been doing and wrote a list of my achievements to have with me to refer to or even give him if necessary. I also had a plan of things to ask for in case the answer was no (extra paid annual leave).

    I currently earn $45,000 and asked for $50,000. My boss countered with $48,000 (a 7% ish rise) and a promise to review again in a couple months. His reasoning was that the company needs the potential deals to be certain before the company can commit which sounded fair enough to me. I was happy with $48,000 as a compromise.

    Sorry this was a bit of an essay but when researching how to go about asking for a pay rise I was craving a real life example but couldn’t seem to find one. Feel free to ask me questions to clarify anything, I’ll make the effort to reply! I hope this helps someone out there!

  222. Pathfinder Ryder*

    For the last few years I’ve been performing in a children’s theatre show a year (paid, which is why this is on the work thread). Today, someone who works in a different department of my very large not theatre company recognized me from a show I was in which she took her kids to two years ago!

    Anyone else reminded at work that it’s a small world after all? I’m tickled.

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