open thread – January 26-27, 2018

by Alison Green on January 26, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Helpful*

    “Hot or Not”… for pets!

    I am building a website as a side business. It has a voting component for pet pictures, as well as a place for “pet battles” where you can decide if your pet is cutest, once and for all.

    What do you think? Would you use/visit this site? :D

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      No, but I don’t have pets.

      I’m unclear do you build websites as a side business or do you expect this website to be your side business? Because I’m not sure how pet hot or not would generate income.

      1. ContentWrangler*

        I assume there would be ads. If so OP, cute pets and pet battles sound awesome but if you use ads to generate revenue, make sure they aren’t intrusive or sketchy. I don’t care how adorable a puppy is, it won’t keep me on a sight where an ad with sound starts auto-playing.

        1. LSP*

          And Google Chrome just added an option to block all sites that automatically play music/videos upon opening, so anyone building new sites and looking for advertising revenue should be aware of that.

          OP – that doesn’t sound like a bad idea. It’s not really where I might spend my time, but I know a lot of people who would spend time there. Maybe you could even use it as a way to help advertise for pets in need of adoption. I have some friends who run a rescue organization for herding dogs, and always need people to foster/adopt. If you could tie your idea into something like that, you’d get access to the passionate following that come with these groups.

          1. Lindsay J*

            Yes. I kind of like the idea for adoptable pets more than just looking at other people’s pets.

            I’m not sure whether PetFinder or some other similar site has an open API or not where you could pull their pictures/bios from.

            Then people could rank pets if they just want to look at cute puppies and kitties, but could also connect with the shelter or rescue if they were interested in adopting that cute puppy.

            1. Lindsay J*

              Adding on to this answer: for me I would not really be interested in looking at pictures of other people’s animals. So if it were just personal uploads I probably wouldn’t be interested.

              But I do occasionally look at PetFinder even when I’m not really actively looking to adopt a pet. It kind of fulfills a fantasy component for me I guess – I can pretend I am going to adopt a dog and think about what it would be like to have it.

              And having the additional voting component would make it more interactive and make me possibly visit it more often than I do PetFinder or like my local shelter sites.

              I’m envisioning almost like a Tinder for pets, but without the duel matching part (the pet doesn’t have to match you, you just have to match the pet to be able to contact them regarding adoption if you want to. But you also don’t have to contact about adoption in you just want to rate or swipe left and right on pets for fun.)

        2. Hey Nonnie*

          I’ve also seen sites that run ads that hijack my browser, redirect (without action on my part) to some other website, and attempt to auto-download some sort of malware under the guise of “OMG YOU HAVE VIRUSES YOU MUST DOWNLOAD THIS TO SAVE YOURSELF!” Fluff sites / clickbait seem to be the worst offenders.

          This is why I run ad-block software. So, be aware of that too. The bad actors on the rest of the internet make me disinclined to even allow “unobtrusive ads,” because hey, the best way to avoid viruses is to avoid hijacker scare-ad popups to begin with.

          There’s a fluff site I occasionally visit that has started to run a nag banner at the bottom of every page demanding that I either turn off ad block or “buy an ad-free pass” here: https://contributor.google.com/v/beta

          That might be something that could work, but when I HAVE tried to visit without ad block, I got the aforementioned hijacker ads, which ensures that they’ll never get money off of me.

          All this to say, if you run ads, very carefully vet the ad network you partner with. If it runs ads that pose security risks, I doubt you’ll make that much more than not running ads at all.

            1. Hey Nonnie*

              Thanks for the link. At least it’s getting noticed. I’m sure it’s more complicated than this, but you’d think that the ad network companies would just refuse to run ads without having their own developers vet the code line-by-line first. Or establish a library of standard code for standardized, non-sketchy behaviors that advertisers were not allowed to deviate from.

            2. KB*

              I’ve actually been getting them when I visit this site on my phone quite a bit (and I do have avast on my phone and whatnot), so that explains how that’s happening! That must be very frustrating for you.

              3. Aunt Piddy*

                I get them on every browser I’ve tried to view AAM with! I installed a script blocker, but they still sneak through sometimes.

            3. anon4now*

              Alison- It’s happening on your site too, for many months now.
              I assumed it was intentional on your part actually, mostly as the sidebar ads/random product video ads have grown in intensity, as well as the “opinion” posts about various websites/products you’re being paid to sponsor.

              1. Me*

                Out of all the websites I frequent, AAM has the most ads and viruses. It’s been a problem for years.

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                It’s not intentional. I’m talking to my ad network about it every single day to try to get it to stop. But as the article above shows, this is a widespread problem right now.

                But as for sponsored posts, I don’t do more of those now than before; it’s right about the same number it’s always been.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Oh — but here’s a new thing from my ad network (literally a minute ago): “Can you try asking people to try different browsers and report back of any continued issues?” So — if you’re getting mobile redirects and you’re willing to try to help us troubleshoot:
                  1. Clear your cache.
                  2. If the problems persist, try another browser, and then please let me know if you do or don’t have the same problem in the different browser.

                  Thank you!

              3. Lisa*

                Sortof related, but once my spouse got fooled by one of those ads which told him he had been infected with Malware and must call Apple immediately at (phone number)… and he did. And then gave them remote access to our computer. And then called me, at which point I was like “SHUT THE COMPUTER DOWN! UNPLUG THE ETHERNET CABLE FROM THE WALL! THEN UNPLUG THE ROUTER!” much to the amusement of all the 20 year old computer science students in the cubicles around me… I then proceeded to change every e-mail, credit card and banking password (from my work computer) within minutes.

                Nothing bad happened (yet – it’s been 3 years!) but I’ll never forget the terror, followed by hilarity, followed by a stern conversation about internet security and never calling a phone number straight from an add or e-mail (or anything, really, without calling me first). Still makes me chuckle, though.

            5. Lujessmin*

              I get those ALL THE TIME, especially when I visit my favorite forum site. I hate them with a passion.

        3. ADA temp*

          Does anyone have experience with requesting ADA accommodation when you’re working as a temp/contractor through an agency? Obviously an employer is required to make reasonable attempts to accommodate, but my legally-liable employer is a completely different entity from the client organization that would be the ones actually putting accommodations in place. I don’t work in my employers office (the agency), I work in the client’s office.

          Temp work is by its nature unstable, and I’ve been let go for truly ridiculous reasons before. (Basically amounting to “she got uppity,” including being let go just for asking the question if there was opportunity to be converted to direct hire eventually; and for attempting to negotiate in good faith when an offered conversion came with an $8K pay cut, an additional 10 hours of work per week, and zero benefits. In both cases I’d already been there proving my value for more than 6 months.)

          I’m not even sure how to approach this, or who to approach first, without taking a huge risk to my paycheck. If I try to tough it out until after I (hopefully) get converted to direct hire, that could mean 6 months or more of continuously increasing exhaustion. Adding to the problem is that while my health issues are (finally) legally considered a disability, socially they are considered invisible and/or not really real or serious, so I’d likely be dealing with the perception that I’m malingering. And the client not being my employer gives them a convenient way out of legal liability.

          Any ideas? Is there something I’m missing that confers the risk of liability on the client? When push comes to shove, I’ve never had success relying on “they seem like good / reasonable people here.”

          1. ADA temp*

            Okay, well, I posted that at the bottom of the page, no idea why it didn’t make its own thread…

          2. Someone else*

            I’d talk to your agent first; obviously any job you’re in is legally required to give anyone working on their site reasonable accommodations (that applies whether you’re there as an agency temp or an in-house hire, at least in the UK), but as you’ve pointed out, a lot of them like to weasel their way out of it, especially with temps. Your agent, on the other hand, has a reason to want you to keep working for them, because you’re the reason they make money- speak to them and see what they can come up with.

        4. Birdie*

          Not sure even that will generate that much revenue. I use adblock extensively and would for that site too.

      2. Helpful*

        Thanks for your feedback. Revenue would be generated through (discreet) ad display. I indicated I’m building it as a side business because it would be a pet project (ha) for fun and to make a few bucks.

        1. The Person from the Resume*

          Ha! As long as you don’t expect more than a few bucks in a year. I know people go to these type of sites, but you’re certainly not the first to build one and getting eyes on page is hard.

        2. Product person*

          Additional source of revenue is Amazon links (you can post a nice picture of a dog-related item, and if a visitor uses the link to go to Amazon to purchase anything — doesn’t have to be the same item — you earn money).

          I have a friend who blogs and gets $400+ a month from Amazon affiliate commissions. And it’s nicer than random ads.

    3. Apostrophina*

      I used to love Kittenwar.com (even though the voters failed to appreciate my guy!), so I probably would.

    5. Anono-me*

      I would love a nice website with cute baby animals and pets to share with toddlers. All too often, we go to look at baby animals and I think we are good, but then …. unpleasant stuff pops up.

      The ads would have to be kid friendly and not obnoxious.

        1. Helpful*

          That wouldn’t be the name— I just wanted to communicate the voting component in an understandable way. I like Triple Anon’s feedback re: keep it positive. That’d be my hope. Also, definitely kid-appropriate. I agree it’s a minefield out there.

    6. Triple Anon*

      I dunno. I think the “not” side of it could open a can of worms. Is there a way you could keep it positive and leave out “not”? For example, just vote for the cutest pet?

      I think “hot or not” would be a good idea for pet products. But then you’d have to moderate all the feedback on controversial products, which includes everything from oral flea control products to invisible fences.

      Animals are an emotional subject. People have strong opinions about a lot of things related to pets. If you’re building something that requires people’s thoughts and feelings about pets, be prepared to manage that. I’m sure there is a way to do it, but I’d devote some effort to coming up with a good strategy.

      I think it would be a fun site to use. I’m just concerned about the “people on the internet” side of it, which could be made worse by soliciting any kind of negativity… which isn’t necessarily bad. Just something to take into account.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yeah, I agree with Helpful and Triple Anon, with a theme like pets, you want to keep it positive, so like “Cute and Cuter” or “Cute and Cutest” still would let people feel like they’re being kind to the one not selected. Especially important if users submit their own pet photos, otherwise you might alienate those who don’t “win”.

      2. Basia, also a Fed*

        I agree. I cringed when I read your idea because the concept of telling someone their beloved is not cute seems so mean-spirited. I’ve read so much about how people take comments on the internet so personally. Why would anyone want to rank cuteness? Why can’t we agree that everyone’s pet is adorable?

    7. Not So NewReader*

      How about a section on heroic animals stories? Animals doing cool things to help people or other animals.
      There was a story in the news yesterday(?) about a dog signalling that there was a drowning man. These stories are so heart warming, it’s like candy for the brain.
      I think people would be attracted to good news.

    8. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I love it! I’m an animal person – some of my best work break/destressors involve cute animals (eg: I used to check in on a puppy cam whenever I was getting stressed or needed to rest my brain for a min or two, scrolling through Instagram searching for a random fun hashtag #corgigram is a good one, or my fav when I’m particularly stressed/frustrated with something – searching youtube for videos of “dogs in shoes”.)

      I would love to be able to swipe through/vote on some super cute pet pics under my desk anytime I need a quick brain rest.

    9. Secretary*

      This is really cool, and it seems like a website I would visit once, play around on it for a little while, and then never go on again. What would you be using to make sure people use it again? Because that’s where you’ll get you’ll get a wider audience.

    10. Frankie Bergstein*

      As long as I could mark all of the pets as “hot”, I’d be in.

      But they’re good dogs, Helpful!

    11. A Non E. Mouse*

      I agree with the others that “Hot or Not” isn’t quite right…maybe “Cute or Too Cute”?

      I love animal pictures so would totally just click next for hoooooouuuuurrrrrssss if this was set up in a friendly way.

      Also seconding Amazon Links to pet supplies. Especially wee little sweaters and pajamas for dogs because AAAWWWWWW.

      1. CM*

        I love Cute or Too Cute! And you could have cuteness rankings and people could send their friends to the site to vote for their pets. I think this is a great idea. I think the main challenge would be staying power — I could see it going viral and then everybody forgets about it in a week.

      2. RNL*

        I think it would perhaps be even more successful if the polls were silly and ridiculous…. “Most likely to become president” … “Looks most like a potato”…. “Most likely to win game a pool” or whatever. “Cute or cuter” is a bit boring and reductive.

        1. Triple Anon*

          I like this idea! It would keep people interested and get around the “not as cute” side of it.

    12. A Teacher*

      Can you work with local rescues to generate interest? I’m on the BOD for a local NFP foster based rescue and serve in the role as a Foster Home Coordinator and foster dogs. Any positive press and images are welcome for us. Something like a #WhiskerWednesday theme dedicated to rescue dogs or something like that?

    13. Bye Academia*

      I probably wouldn’t, because I wouldn’t want to be told my pets aren’t cute. I mean, my cat is 100% the cutest cat ever to exist and no one will tell me otherwise. Also, I get plenty of cute animals on twitter and instagram.

      I think the concept that strikes the right balance for me is something like the dog_rates twitter account, where they say something funny about the animal and then rate it 12/10 or whatever. And that account already exists.

      But maybe I’m in the minority. There’s tons of people who like to do tons of different things on the internet. You never know if your site could catch on until you try it.

      1. Connie-Lynne*

        I love how dog rates is always a number greater than 10 out of 10. I don’t even notice the numbers, just the sweet ratings.

    14. Sarah Peterson*

      Since I already have a half dozen sites of cute animals that pop up in my Twitter feed, I would suggest you think really hard about your marketing and how you’re going to make this stand out. I don’t look for cute pet sites ever as they pop up in front of me on Facebook and Twitter constantly. It’s an overloaded market. I don’t think the contest thing is enough to set it apart.

    17. Lily in NYC*

      I find the idea to be really cute. Way better than that horrendous ‘Rate My Poop” site that was popular at the same time as Hot or Not…(I’m aging myself here).

    18. Irene Adler*

      I might visit to see if it is anything near to the now defunct site cuteoverload.com

      I miss cute animal pics.

    19. GigglyPuff*

      Like others have said I think you’d need to make it stand out better, because there were already place like CuteOverload, and news about animals there’s DoDo

    20. RML*

      I’d say for a new site entering the market now, you’d have to do something that makes you stand out for all of the other cute pet voting sites out there.

      I don’t currently follow any websites (mainly instagrams) for my cute animal fixes but thinking back to even 2005-2006, I probably followed a dozen cute animal ranking/voting sites. Helped me get through my boring job at the time.

      What would be different and exciting about yours? I’d think about that before you put the effort in because I don’t know you’d gain a following without something that sets you apart. :) Good luck!

      1. RML*

        quick google search for “cute pet vote” brought me to puppywar, petvote, kingpet, petwow, and 9,270,000 hits. Which is not to say yours is a bad idea – just that it needs to have something that those others don’t (or it needs to work better, or be easier to find, or go viral for some reason). Again – good luck! Hope you post it here if you end up creating it.

    21. Buffy*

      I’d be into seeing cute puppy pictures! But maybe try to skew it in a way so it’s not a “hot or not” thing. (I’d be all sad if my pup became a “not!”) But cute idea.

    22. Bowl of Oranges*

      Buzzfeed used to have an iOS called Cute or Not that was exactly this (not sure if it still works – it didn’t for me the last time I tried, so I deleted it). You swiped left or right on the picture (like Tinder). That was pretty much the whole app. I did use it when I needed to kill a few minutes or when I doing something else like watching tv.

      If I remember correctly when you submitted your animal, you only saw how many cute votes they got – you never saw the negatives.

      I do remember seeing a fair amount of pictures I’d seen before in other places (like professionally done pictures). I think these were pictures people just downloaded and submitted as their own pets rather than Buzzfeed adding them in.

  2. Lillian*

    I have a question. This is my first time posting here but I have read here for a while.

    The only job I have ever worked is as an assistant. I was hired by my boss when she was promoted to management. I was her assistant for 6.5 years. She worked her way up to an executive director position. On Tuesday she was fired and escorted out by security after admitting to sexual harassy behavior after emails were found and the company got sued. I was let go the same day. Not for doing anything wrong but because there was no job for me anymore. The company, the lawsuit, and the emails are clear I had nothing to do with it and no knowledge. The company says they will confirm my employment dates but that any reference can only be given by someone who was my boss and knows my work. My boss was fired and is being sued and I have no way to contact her. When she was getting escorted out she blamed me for selling her out even though I had no idea about any of it.

    I consulted a lawyer yesterday but the company didn’t do anything wrong. I started working there in the summer right after high school. I have never had another job before, I never went to school for anything and my boss was the only boss I ever had and the only person I worked closely with. I’m applying for unemployment but that is not a lot and won’t last forever. Going to school or taking classes is not an option for me for a number of reasons. My boss was always good to me. Her wife and her had me over for dinner a bunch of times. She never said anything if I was a bit late because of transit delays and when the weather was bad she let me leave early and would pay for a cab for me. I hate that I never saw the harassment but there are emails and no doubt it happened.

    How do I explain this when I look for another job? I have no other work history and no reference. I don’t know if I should bring up what happened with my boss because even though I didn’t do anything I am afraid of being blamed by association. No doubt word of the lawsuit will get around. Any tips that anyone has for my job search would be great, thanks!

      2. anyone out there but me*

        Yes, this… because it is the truth. Your boss was fired, and your position was no longer needed.

      3. ContentWrangler*

        Vague doesn’t seem like it would work because her position being eliminated wouldn’t explain why she has no references. I think OP will have to say something straightforward like: Unfortunately my position was eliminated when my boss was let go for inappropriate behavior.

        Then people should at least have an idea why OP has no references. Sorry, this happened to you, OP. Maybe there’s a coworker that could vouch for you?

        2. VioletEMT*

          I’d recommend trying to get a coworker to vouch for you and then offering that instead, after explaining that your old boss can’t give you a reference because she was let go for inappropriate behavior, causing your position to be eliminated. That way they have someone to talk to if they want.

    2. Future Analyst*

      Oh man, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. I think this would be a scenario in which you can be honest about what happened, but in a succinct way (in an interview). “My boss was terminated for inappropriate conduct, and since my role was directly supporting hers, I was let go as well.” You don’t need to bring it up in a cover letter– you can limit that to the role you’re applying to, and what you hope to bring to it. As for the reference: are there any other people who worked with you that can at least vouch for you being reliable/not a monster? Again, if you get to the interview stage you can explain why you don’t have contact information for your former manager, but offering at least one or two other people’s contact info may help.

      1. Natalie*

        since my role was directly supporting hers, I was let go as well

        I would adjust this slightly to “since my role was directly supporting hers, it was eliminated”. I think you want to be super clear that the job was eliminated because it was no longer needed, not because you were at all involved in her downfall.

        2. Stranger than fiction*

          Yep that’s what I was thinking. She doesn’t want them to think she’s the one that was the victim of the misconduct or the whistleblower or whatever.

      2. Millennial Lawyer*

        I wouldn’t even mention inappropriate conduct. Just that “my boss was terminated, and since my role was directly supporting hers, it was eliminated.” If asked why you can’t get a reference from her maybe say “unfortunately she left on bad terms, but I can get confirmation of my employment dates from the company.”

        I’m curious to hear other ideas.

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          I like this approach a lot. I would also ask any co-workers (people that you interacted with regularly – they didn’t manage you, but they are familiar with what your work entailed and can speak to their experiences interacting with you in a professional setting) if they might be willing to act as a reference.

          I’d also try looking into temp work. That’s how I built up references after my first job out of school left me with no solid references (I reported them for illegally classifying me as an independent contractor – approached owners directly, not threateningly but was laid off within a couple of day – so I filed for unemployment and eventually won the claim, but it triggered an audit and the company folded shortly after – I’m sure there were other issues going on. So no one was happy with me – bosses or co-workers).

        2. CM*

          I think “bad terms” is perfect — it’s not as specific as “inappropriate conduct” but makes it clear why she’s not available as a reference.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I like this approach, too. I think minimizing the drama is the right opening salvo, and then slightly more information can be layered on as needed.

    3. EA*

      Dear god, I am sorry.

      Do you have any coworkers who you worked closely with? Especially if they had a director/manager title? I would consider asking them to bend the rules and give you a reference. I know ‘officially’ they are not suppose to, but often people feel bad and break the rules.

      How to explain it is way above my paygrade. Maybe other commenters have ideas.

      Why in the world would you boss think you sold her out? Does she not get all emails are usually on company servers?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is a good idea. I had a toxic boss who left for another branch a distance away from here. I was able to get other managers from other departments to agree to vouch for me. What you are looking for here is an understanding person who realizes you have a rock and a hard place going on and they are willing to help to help you out. (These folks do exist!)
        So while you did not work for these other people, perhaps they were in frequent contact with you in the course of your work day. And maybe they would be willing to speak to that, such as, “OP was always pleasant and always had my reports ready for me when I needed them.”

    4. Lillian*

      Thank you for the helpful replies everyone.

      Unfortunately as I said I have no reference and didn’t work for or closely with anyone else besides my boss.

      1. EA*

        I understand that, but you must have talked to other people/were observed by other people. They could at least verify you are not a psycho, and came to work, and seemed competent.

        2. Incantanto*

          So, I’ve had an 11% pay rise. Yay!
          However:
          This is the result of a promotion in August they didn’t increase my pay for because “we do pay adjustments in January”

          Jan is also the cost of living raise and inflation is at 3%. So actual promotion raise is 8% and 6 months into the role. I was hoping for min ten outside of col.

          I haven’t been officially told “here’s your raise.” My paycheck was just higher. So no chance to negotiate.

          Is it worth talking to my manager about it? I worry if I accept this one they’ll go with the whole “we gave you a raise last year” and theres no more promotions for at least two years.

          Unfortunately, my direct manager and grandmanager has no salary control. It was run by the CEO and he died around new year and I’m not even sure who to talk to. Help.

        3. MK*

          I doubt OP will find anyone at this company willing to offer a reference. And I am not sure what good a “I didn’t have much to do with her, but as far as I could tell she came to work and is not a psycho and seems competent” reference is.

          1. Wolfram alpha*

            EAs work with tons of people. I can tell you who is good or not in a heartbeat since I worked closely with several executives.

            OP definitely reach out to your former EAs frequent fliers to see about references.

      2. Observer*

        That stinks.

        You’re going to need to be honest, brief and factual. The scripts people have mentioned are your best bet.

      3. a-no*

        If you were there for 6.5 years did you get any raises on a regular schedule or have any written performance evaluations or anything like that?
        Is there any way you could get a combo of someone you spoke with regularly/worked near you who could vouch that you did show up and were friendly/personable (as more of a general reference not a professional one), a proven money trail and/or the HR employment dates? I think any combo of those with a very brief explanation I wouldn’t blame you.
        Then I’d wait until the reference stage and I would mention my boss did leave on bad terms with the company and as I didn’t work with anyone else closely this is what I could offer.

        Also the temp thing is a fantastic idea. You have the experience and you could get some work through them and build up a bit of a reputation. There are temp to perm positions that if you can snag one, you’d not need references as you prove your work to them to get the perm position.

        1. a-no*

          Oh, re-reading: if the lawsuit is likely going to get around in the field you are in – Is there anyway HR would be willing to confirm why you were let go / that you were not involved in anyway with your bosses misconduct? Being able to offer that to someone who knows why your boss was fired would likely change the perception of you

      4. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Were there are any assistants you interacted with regularly – admins to folks that your boss dealt with a lot, so you coordinated with their admins sometimes? The higher up the food chain the better for references, but even a peer would be better than nothing.

      5. boo*

        Okay, this might be crazy, but it sounds like you had a good relationship with your boss prior to her being escorted out for inappropriate conduct, even friendly enough that you hung out socially with her and her wife.

        Could you reach out to her, tell her you were shocked and blindsided by what happened (which you were), and ask if she will be a reference for you?

        I know that probably sounds bad, like you’re supporting her bad behavior or looking the other way, but she’s already been caught and fired-the consequences have happened.

        You have a history of doing good work for someone who was happy with your performance for over six years. You shouldn’t be punished for her sins, and that’s basically what’s happening. I know the morality on this is icky, but I’m a utilitarian: she’s already seen the consequences of her actions, and you need a job. You can cut her off when you have one and don’t need her reference anymore.

        Thoughts? Is this horrible, amoral advice? (If the commentariat says it is, listen to them, not me!)

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          I don’t think this is out of line, as long as the former manager has cooled off some and is no longer blaming Lillian for what happened. If she’s willing to give a reference, it would be ideal, though a bit… tainted given the circumstances of why she was fired.

        2. boo*

          Also, I’m sorry this is happening to you. Losing your own livelihood over someone else’s misdeeds is so unjust, and both your boss and your company owed it to you to do better.

        3. Thlayli*

          I don’t think this is a bad idea at all – it’s what I was going to suggest. Even if you don’t have a number you know where she lives as you’ve been to her house. So you could write her a letter to tell her you weren’t involved at all, what happened to you as a result of her actions, and ask her to be a reference.

        4. Detective Amy Santiago*

          How likely is it that word would have gotten around about what boss did? If there’s a 10% or less chance, then this might be okay. But it would probably be worse for her to have a reference from someone who did something awful and was fired for it than to not have one at all.

        5. Observer*

          The real problem here is that if people know why the boss was let go, they are not going to take anything she has to say in a positive light. So, not helpful.

      6. theletter*

        I once was able to provide a personal reference – the director of a choir that I had sung with for many years. Sometimes teachers work as well. church/spiritual leaders or volunteer work may also bear fruits.

    5. Kau*

      Why did you feel the need to mention that your boss is a woman and has a wife? Why is this even relevant?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        She’s mentioning that her boss is a woman because she’s using pronouns to refer to her, which is pretty normal. And she mentioned the wife in the context of explaining she’d been to their house for dinner. Please don’t nitpick language here like that.

        site rules

        (I’m removing the rest of the comments saying the same thing so that it doesn’t derail more than it already has.)

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        She just used pronouns to refer to people (and, I guess, said that her boss and her boss’ wife had her over for dinner).

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      I mean, if they directly ask, you can’t lie. But most people won’t, so I wouldn’t worry too much. You’re right that the big problem here is, though, that you have for all intents and purposes no real reference to give out after a decent amount of time at this workplace. It really sucks! I’d wonder, if I were hiring, why you can’t produce anyone that knew what you did and could speak to your abilities.

      Is there absolutely no one else you work with that could be a reference? Surely other people at your workplace are aware of the general scope of your work, that you were pleasant to interact with, and did a good job as an assistant. I’d offer up those folks if you can, because they should be able to really give a lot of insight that would be helpful.

      Now, with that, there will be an inevitable question of, “Why aren’t you providing your manager as a reference?” Practice a quick and correct response, because the details of the situation aren’t related to you directly (that is, it’s not as though there was harassment against you and you quit immediately). It may even be alright to be honest, “My manager was fired for harassment and is not available as a reference. However, X and Y can speak to my work as they often interacted with us both…”

      It’s an awful situation and I’m really sorry you got caught up in the middle of it. How awful.

    7. Overeducated*

      I’m sorry, it’s so unfair that you’re suffering collateral damage as well as the people your boss harrassed. I don’t know enough to give advice but you have my sympathy and good wishes.

    8. MashaKasha*

      Maybe it’s because I’m not all there emotionally right now as a result of dealing with back pain for the last two months, but this comment made me literally tear up with real tears. WTH kind of a mess is our corporate world in, if someone can be kicked out on the street like that through absolutely no fault of their own, no references, and no place to go! What kind of inanimate cogs do our employers think we are!… I have no words. What does this even mean there’s no job for you anymore, they will need a new executive director won’t they?! Fng ridiculous. I am so sorry.

      To your question, “after my boss was let go, my position was eliminated” sounds like a good way to phrase it to me. Best of luck in your job search.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree, I felt really bad for you, OP. It sucks.

        You will get through this.

        Sometimes unforeseens happen. Such as another employer heard of the situation and they are willing to grant some leniency because you are able to describe what you did. (People who are lying cannot describe in detail what work they have done.)
        It could be that the next employer decides that your longevity at this job tells them everything they want to know. They are satisfied with just talking to you to fill in the rest of their blanks.
        You can also look at friends and family who you respect and ask them to keep an ear out for openings. You might get some consideration just based on the recommendation of someone who is established/respected at a company. In this case, you are looking for people you know are good at their jobs and have credibility with people inside the company.

        Good luck.
        Side note, I am really, really sorry that the boss you liked so well blew up like that on you. That stung. I am so sorry.

      3. Fish Microwaver*

        I agree too. The poor OP was thrown under the bus by the boss and the employer. Lillian, I am very sorry you are going through this and send good vibes for your job search and future career.

      4. Observer*

        I suspect that someone decided that the OP really WAS to blame – or would like to make it look that way to deflect attention from people who really might have responsibility. I mean what they are claiming about how references work is just nonsense.

    9. MashaKasha*

      Because she has a wife?

      Would you be leaving the same comment if the OP said “she and her husband had me over to dinner”? Why is this even relevant?

    10. The Person from the Resume*

      No need to attack the poster. She didn’t actual say that her boss was a woman, we all inferred that the pronouns used.

      She mentioned the wife in explaining how her boss was good to her and how they had such a very good relationship in the past that she had dinner at her house with her boss and her boss’s wife. Yes, she could have used partner or spouse but wife/husband is more informal and IMO more commonly used than partner or spouse.

      Lillian did nothing wrong inappropriate with this post and did nothing to paint all lesbians or women in a bad light.

    11. CatCat*

      Perhaps something like, “My boss was let go suddenly and I was subsequently laid off since there was no longer work for me.”

      For the references, this whole thing really sucks for you and I am sorry. You can explain, “My boss had been the only person I worked closely with and unfortunately, I don’t have contact information for her since she left [prior employer.] I can however, offer [XYZ].” Figuring out what XYZ is is the challenge. If there is anyone you were acquainted with at work or anyone you’ve done volunteer work with, you could do that. You may be in the pickle of having to use personal references, just people who know you but haven’t worked with you. Not at all ideal, but it happens.

      As for work, I would consider looking into temping through a temp agency. I did a lot of temping early in my working life and it was a great way to get work and build up a professional reputation. Best of luck to you!!

    12. Natalie*

      This really sucks! I’m sorry.

      One thing I would do is connect with some staffing/temp firms. A lot of firms seem to do both these days, so you might pick up some temp work for now or get interviews for temp to perm or direct hire positions. Recruiters can be really helpful when you have something odd or difficult in your history because they are a third party presenting you to the client and they can address issues more directly than is usually appropriate for a job candidate to do. They can help you brainstorm other reference options. And if you do any temp work, good reports from those companies will serve as a bit of a reference for you as well.

      Also, just in case you’re concerned, it’s usually acceptable to earn some money while you’re collecting unemployment. Over a certain amount will cause that week’s benefit payment to be reduced, but most (possibly all) states don’t reduce it 1-to-1, so you’ll still be a little ahead than if you had no work.

      1. TallTeapot*

        I second the idea about staffing firms. It sounds like you’re in a larger metropolitan area and those sorts fo places usually have very active staffing agencies. for admin assistant work, often time that is how some firms hire people for those kinds of jobs–not through employment ads, but by hiring temps. Good luck–what a difficult situation!

      2. AllIDoIsWin*

        I recommend temping as well; that way you can start working short term gigs with companies and possibly build up some references. Ask the temp agencies about that when you start – will you be able to use managers you work with as a reference or someone at the temp agency? Another idea is to volunteer at some non-profits – they often need help in administrative areas where funding doesn’t always pay for it and you can build up that reference list from them. Do you have any people in your life who have worked with you in other capacities that you may tap for character references (former co-workers, people you know from hobbies or affiliations you were a part of)? Good luck – that’s a rough spot to be in!

    13. Cajun2core*

      I have a feeling that one day hopefully soon, that your boss’s position will be replaced. Hopefully at that time, you can apply for your “old job” with the new person. I could be totally wrong about that. In any case, I would definitely keep an eye open for jobs at your previous employer. Granted you may not want to work there after the way they treated you, but it is better than nothing and while you are working there, you can still look for another job.

    14. Lillian*

      Thank you for the helpful replies :)

      As I said I didn’t work for anyone else and there is no one I worked closely with. I have no other references. I wish I did.

      The person who is replacing my boss already has an assistant. Everyone there who needs an assistant has long term ones. There is no spot for me there.

      I will see about temping as I have no other work and no volunteer experience. Thank you to everyone for the suggestions.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        I understand that you didn’t work for anyone else. Who else in your office did you interact with occasionally in your role? Did you interact with a director, a VP, or another EA? All of these people could be your reference. These are all people that while they didn’t directly supervise you, know of your work because you intersected with them.

        I understand also that you didn’t work closely with these people, but honestly, any reference will be better than none. What about fellow EAs that you had to work with when coordinating things between different executives? What about your supervisor’s reports, who I’m guessing would talk with you upon occasion?

        The trick is that while you didn’t work closely with them, they’re your main resource to overcome the big problem of not having your manager as a reference. And if you can cobble together a bunch of them, that should help a lot. So think about the people you may have only reached out to once a week or every other week, or every month. Having to cobble together references from peers when your manager is marched out the door is better than having no references at all.

        Take some time and think about who these people are.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          This is very good advice. Just because HR said that you can only get a reference from your boss doesn’t mean it’s true. Sure, most employers prefer supervisory references, but in your situation, I would certainly understand a combination of verified dates and a colleague reference.

        2. Anonymous Poster*

          Also another avenue, if people at your past organization really don’t want to give out references, is think about people that have left in the past year or two who you occasionally interacted with. Past EAs, directors, VPs, people who reported to your manager, all these folks no longer are constrained by your past organization’s insistence on ‘no references’ and can speak to your work. Give them a call or grab a coffee with them, and ask them if they’d be willing to do this. I’d expect them to ask why not just get your manager, and then you can briefly explain the situation.

          Most people would be so sympathetic to your plight (and it really, really stinks) that they’ll do whatever they can to help you out, including acting as a reference and speaking to your work as they saw it, when you had to interact with them.

          Very few roles in any organization interact with solely one other individual! This would be very unusual; surely you had to coordinate things with other people.

          You’re more awesome than you’re giving yourself credit for!

      2. Koko*

        Who did your boss work closely with? I would think that as an EA you would have had extensive contact with those people when scheduling meetings, taking phone calls, etc. They should be able to vouch for your demeanor, professionalism, conscientiousness, etc.

      3. Christmas Carol*

        Did you have any particular vendors, clients, or agencies that you had developed strong on-going relationships with? The banker, the official at the government compliance office, the dispatcher at the freight company, the manager from the copy machine place, the events manager at the meeting site where you arranged the big week long company meeting, the editor who you worked with when your company published its new catalog, the web developer you helped finally get paid, a benefits manager you worked with when your company changed health insurance carriers

        1. Lillian*

          I was an assistant. I didn’t do any of this or deal with any of these people. I only worked closely with my boss. I thought by stating my title and saying I only worked closely with her it would have made things clear but in hindsught I guess I should have been more clear.

          1. Elizabeth H.*

            I think it’s just really difficult to imagine that you worked in an office with other people and there wasn’t anybody else besides your boss that you saw every day, spoke to, asked a question of or was asked a question by at least a few times a week. Because your office wasn’t just you and your boss, it sounds like, it’s easy to imagine that there are other people in the same building/office who knew who you were and what your job was. If you literally just saw your boss and ONLY your boss every single day that seems like a really unusual circumstance and that’s why people keep pressing about other people from the office. Like a receptionist that you walked by everyday or someone you explained how to make copies or explained to you how to make copies when you started, stuff like that. I think people are suggesting that there may be somebody like that in your office, not even necessarily somebody who you were in meetings with and sent e-mails back and forth with on a regular basis (although it’s also a little bit difficult to imagine that your boss was the only person who ever emailed you and whom you ever emailed) – it seems like other people at the company at least knew who you are – I think that is the level that commenters are referring to)

            Anyway, I am so sorry that you are in this situation. It sounds so awful and upsetting and I wish you all the best in finding another job.

    15. Secretary*

      A really short and to the point explanation is good. “My position was eliminated.” If you’re asked for more detail, or why you don’t have references, “My supervisor’s position was eliminated suddenly, and I have no way to contact her. That is actually why my position was eliminate, because I had no one left to assist!” (Bonus if you say this with a smile and a ‘what can you do?’ kind of demeanor. I doubt they will ask you more than this).

      For references:
      -Is there any jobs like food service, retail etc before your first professional job with references you can use? These are still managers which could help.
      -Do you do any volunteering or side hustles where you have reported to someone? I’ve used people in those capacities for references as well. Some types of volunteering job performance is not applicable, but sometimes it is.
      -Can you reach out one more time to someone at your old company about this? Not HR, but maybe your boss’s boss? At my old job, they by policy do not give out references if you call the main line, but my supervisor gave me her personal number to give as a reference if I needed one.
      -Could you talk to HR, and ask if there’s any records of performance reviews they can release to you? Or if they will give a reference or release records if you can provide them with a signed document with your permission?
      -Is there anyone, ANYONE at your old job that could give you a reference? Maybe clients? Co-workers? These are not ideal references but it’s better than nothing.

      1. Lillian*

        “I started working there in the summer right after high school. I have never had another job before”

        “The company says they will confirm my employment dates but that any reference can only be given by someone who was my boss and knows my work.”

        As I said I have never had another job and there is no one else I worked for or closely with.

        1. Secretary*

          Lillian, I’m sorry if I came off like I was ignoring key aspects of your predicament, I didn’t mean to come across like I wasn’t taking you at your word.
          Responding to the quotes you used:
          1. I mentioned retail/food service in case you worked while in high school. That counts and lots of people don’t realize that, but I’m glad you do.
          2. Just because a company says they can’t give you a reference doesn’t mean you can’t get one. A lot of people don’t realize they can ask people directly and not just through the company. You may also be able to negotiate what they say your reason for departure was.

          I read your original letter, please feel free to use any of it that actually applies and discount the rest as a stranger who doesn’t know your full situation and what you have/have not considered.

          1. Lindsay J*

            2. Just because a company says they can’t give you a reference doesn’t mean you can’t get one. A lot of people don’t realize they can ask people directly and not just through the company. You may also be able to negotiate what they say your reason for departure was.

            Agreed. A lot (almost all) of my previous jobs have had “no reference” policies, but I’ve been able to work around them by either contacting people who had left the company prior to me so they did not have to follow the company’s rules anymore, or by finding people willing to give direct contact info and give the reference, because, really, how is the company going to find out that they did it.

            Obviously Lillian’s situation sounds to be a little different since she says there isn’t anyone else she worked with closely.

            But in general, these policies can generally be worked around.

    16. DeeShyOne*

      I’m very sorry you’re going through this. I have been in your shoes and found it to be a fantastic learning opportunity. (admittedly after the fact, I didn’t have this clarity going through through it at the time)

      I agree with what Millennial Lawyer said:

      “I wouldn’t even mention inappropriate conduct. Just that “my boss was terminated, and since my role was directly supporting hers, it was eliminated.” If asked why you can’t get a reference from her maybe say “unfortunately she left on bad terms, but I can get confirmation of my employment dates from the company.”

      This confirms this is a touchy subject and based on that, even if you had a reference from your previous employer, their HR may advise against that due to the nature of the dismissal.

      This might be a good time to see if you can obtain a reference from a different source: former teacher/mentor, long time family friend, etc. Someone else who can verify your work ethic and experience.

      All the best and good luck!

    17. Wow*

      I feel really bad for Lillian.

      Alison asks that people be taken at their word. Lillian asked how to explain the no references thing when applying for other jobs.

      She CLEARLY posted that she has no other work experience. She CLEARLY posted that she has no one to ask for a reference. Yet instead of answering her question, people are asking her about other past jobs and/or telling her who else is reference possibility.

      That’s not what she asked and it is not helpful. I’m sorry you have been treated this way by the other commenters Lillian. It happens a lot here that people are not taken at their word despite Alison’s rule. I wish you well in your future endeavors.

        1. Lindsay J*

          And, because, honestly, going, “I don’t have any references at all for my entire working career” is going to disqualify you from many hiring processes, no matter how you frame it. So wordsmithing the absolute best sentence in the world may still not be helpful.

          So by trying to identify any other possibilities that may exist (like non-supervisors, former teachers, etc) , or identifying options to build new references (like volunteering or temp work) people are trying to help Lillian the best that they can.

          If the suggestions don’t work for Lillian, she is free to ignore them and free to use the suggestions that do work for her, as there have been several excellent suggestions for how she can explain it.

          And there is the possibility of the suggestions helping someone who is in a similar predicament but that isn’t the original poster. That’s part of the benefit of a public forum/thread.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I don’t think there is anything wrong with people suggesting some ‘out of the box’ type ideas for obtaining a reference. A lot of people assume that you can only use your direct supervisor and given the circumstances, that is not her only option.

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          Yeah, I think a lot of people are wondering if there’s truly no one else, or if Lillian is taking the company’s HR at their word that people other than a supervisor aren’t allowed to provide references. There are a lot of restrictive company reference policies that are mostly ignored in practice, and since the OP doesn’t have a very wide range of work experience she may not realize she could ask others at the company for references even if they weren’t particularly close or if HR would frown on that person as an official reference.

          If she’s correct that she basically only ever interacted with her boss (which is pretty unusual for an EA, to be honest), then that really does suck and she has my sympathy.

          2. Thlayli*

            It wasn’t until I started frequenting this site that I even found out there are people who ask HR for an “official” reference. I’ve always just directly asked the person who I thought would give me the best reference. In this case, that’s clearly the boss. It’s irrelevant that she no longer works there. The only reason not to use the boss is
            A) if you can’t convince your boss you had nothing to do with it and she refuses to give you a reference
            Or
            B) if what she did becomes widely known in the industry to the extent she would be a bad reference.

          3. nonegiven*

            Usually you’d think at least there would be other direct reports and other boss’s EAs that you’d have at least email or phone contact for work purposes that could say something positive.

      3. YuliaC*

        I think it is very helpful when people suggest who else might be reference material. I certainly had found such suggestions helpful when I was in a similar situation to OP’s after the first layoff in my life. People relatively new to the wide working world may not realize that even someone as remote a client who saw you maybe twice in your life can still be a reference when nothing better is available. I would never think of that client of mine if someone didn’t point out to me that ANY good reference is better than none. Turned out the client was super happy and understanding, and gave me a glowing reference that helped a lot.

      4. Specialk9*

        This is a weird level of outrage on this poster’s behalf. Nobody is running through the streets chanting “liar liar”, they are doing the best they can with what they know. Some skimmed and missed a point, some saw and understood but were trying to go sideways and check if the panicked OP has thought of everything. But no need to attack people for trying to help a stranger.

      5. Lillian*

        Thank you Wow. I understand people were trying to be helpful but I am frustrated that like you said, people aren’t listening to what I am saying or answering my question. I know some people did and did try to help so I do appreciate that. Maybe in hindsight I should have been more clear about my job. When I said I was her assistant I thought it would be enough. I appreciate you standing up for me Wow and for saying what I was thinking.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It is highly unusual that an assistant doesn’t ever interact with anyone else in the company. In fact, it’s probably not inaccurate to say that assistants are likely to interact with *more* people than the person they support because they are generally counted on to do a lot of interdepartmental communication.

          By suggesting that you consider alternative options within the company for a reference, we *were* trying to help you.

          And I can’t help but wonder what Alison would find if she compared the IP addresses for Wow and Lillian.

    18. Slartibartfast*

      The small business I worked at was bought out by someone who was….not a nice person. Being a small business, there’s nobody else to go to, management wise, for a reference. Officially, we’re not allowed to give one either. Unofficially, three of us agreed to be references for each other using our personal addresses and phone numbers. Not ideal, since we’re equals, but it’s all we’ve got.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        This also is not super uncommon. Lots of businesses say that only HR can be a reference and management cannot give out references. Lots of managers at these places also continue to regularly give out references.

        1. ExceptionToTheRule*

          Yes. I make it a point to deliberately not know anything about my company’s “official” reference policy and because they haven’t told me (that or many, many other things about hiring & managing) then I’m pleasantly ignorant. “Oh, nobody ever told me the official policy” with a question mark on my face is my planned answer.

    19. JGray*

      I would not say that my boss was let go because of inappropriate conduct right away. Say your boss was let go and so your position was eliminated because you were her assistant. This would be said in an interview setting. When it comes time to check references than you can explain more but do not say anything that would get you involved in this situation any more than you already are. Without meaning too you might accidentally infer that you knew about what she was doing even though you didn’t know. You need to tread lightly with this one. With the lawsuit it will all come out but right now try to distance yourself as much as you can from the situation.

    20. Sled Dog Mama*

      Wow just wow. OP I wish I had something really helpful to offer but I don’t.
      The only thing I can think of that isn’t mentioned above is what about calling the old company and see if in addition to confirming dates of employment they will confirm that you are eligible for rehire. I don’t know that it would be a huge help but if your previous employer says yes we’d hire this person if they applied to me that says that as a company they had no issues and in a roundabout way says you have nothing to do with your boss being let go.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Yes, if for some reason the OP really cannot get any person as a reference, this would be your next best option.

        I’d really push back on not finding a reference though. Maybe even someone that’s left the organization in the past year or so, who’s not in fear of the company finding out about them giving out a reference, who can speak to you being pleasant to interact with or staying on top of your normal duties and doing a great job, would be an option.

    21. Trillion*

      Others have covered it well (“my position was eliminated”), I just want to chime with my old lady wisdom.

      I’m sensing a lot of anxiety, betrayal, and grief in your words. I went through something similar at your age (worked at a place right out of college for ~6 years, great boss, but position was eliminated so I was out of a job due to no fault of my own). At the time it was the end of the world for me. I was on unemployment for what felt like forever before getting hired at a temp agency (in reality “forever” was only two weeks!)

      All that to say: please know that you’re going to get through this. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and the pain you’re feeling will eventually hurt less. You’re going to go on to some wonderful jobs (and perhaps no so wonderful ones).

      Good luck in your job hunt! I’m so sorry this happened to you.

      1. Specialk9*

        YES. Getting laid off is an intense emotional ride, like falling through ice on a winter pond, getting hauled out by your hair, then kicked by a donkey. It sucks. And you have to scramble and find money somehow, and act like it’s ok, and it all sucks more. Big internet hugs, if you’d like them.

    22. DeveloperDodo*

      This may or may not apply (I’m not in the US, so things may be different there), but I’ve always found that telling the truth (as horrid as may be) in a matter of fact tone works wonders. I work in a highly technical field, so saying it as if it’s a list of bullet points you’re reading off works.
      So a simple “My position was eliminated after my boss was let go for inappropriate behaviour” will work best. I doubt anybody is going to dig into that part of your employment too deeply after that.
      The company will verify that you worked there from X date until Y date, after you tell them what your job consisted of, they will have no reason to doubt you.

  3. KMB213*

    I am getting increasingly disheartened with my job search. I’ve been selective about applying only for jobs I’m qualified for (and not applying for jobs I’m obviously overqualified for). I’ve had two friends in HR and two friends who are hiring managers for similar types of positions look over my resume for content and formatting and one more look over it for spelling or grammatical errors. I always have at least one person look at my cover letters before I submit them. (I’ve had the aforementioned five friends look at a basic cover letter template I use – I’m sure to personalize it for each job and have someone look at the final product, but each cover is similar as I’m applying to very similar positions requiring basically the same skillset.) I’m not even getting interviews. I’m so frustrated because I don’t know what I could do differently. I’ve been applying to jobs for a little over a year – there have been months where I’ve taken a break and not done any applications, but I’d say I’ve averaged two a month. I haven’t been applying super aggressively because I’d hate to leave one job I really dislike for another job I really dislike, so I’ve been somewhat choosy. I’ve had maybe five phone screens in that time, with three that led to additional interviews (in one case, I was a finalist and was not selected, in one case I realized the job wasn’t for me and asked to be removed from consideration, and in the third case, I went in for one in-person interview and never heard back).
    To make things worse, my current job seems to get worse by the day. My boss frequently makes comments that make me uncomfortable, including talking about women’s bodies and using a homophobic slur. 1-2 times a week I’m unable to get lunch due to not having the time. I frequently (at least three times a week) have to stay hours late because my boss asks to have something done at the very end of the day. This would be bad enough on its own, but he naps in the middle of the day, which makes it more irritating, because, if he were to ask for these things in the afternoon, I could easily complete them. The reason I know my boss naps in the middle of the day? Our office recently moved to his house – not to a separate part of the house. He has a bedroom, but, other than that, the house is basically now an office that he lives in. He comes downstairs in his pajamas and, since he’s always here, talks to me (typically about things unrelated to work) when I’m trying to finish up for the day (an hour or two after I was supposed to leave). On top of all of that, my boss is not a clear communicator (and he has had this problem with employees in the past), but, when I ask for clarification, he talks down to me. He also vacillates between micromanaging me (requiring things as simple as an Excel search be done exactly his way when there’s more than one correct way to do it) and giving me no direction whatsoever. He interrupts me in meetings and will ask for my opinion only to completely ignore it. Often, my contributions in meetings go ignored, only to have a colleague be praised for the same idea.
    The job also requires a really long commute and doesn’t provide health insurance – two things I knew going in to it, but two more reasons I’d really like a new job.

    I don’t really have a question or anything, I just really needed to vent. And, if anyone has any suggestions about what I could do differently in my job search, I’m happy to hear them! I’d also love any suggestions for how to deal with working a job that’s making me miserable. I truly am trying to get out, but, for now, I need to survive in this job. (I have enough money saved to go 2-3 months without working, but I’d prefer not to!)

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      It sounds like maybe it’s time to get more aggressive! You’re applying infrequently, and while choosiness isn’t a bad trait, it sounds like the way you’ve been going at it no longer meshes with your goal for a timeline in getting out of your current situation. Your current job sounds awful!

      Without knowing more about your area and industry, it’s hard to say exactly what a job search timeframe should look like. It’s possible that you might have to consider taking on something that is slightly tangential to your desired career path in order to get yourself out of your current office-house of evil bees.

      1. KMB213*

        You’re probably right! My current job has gotten increasingly worse – at first, I wanted to look for something new, but it wasn’t that important to me that I leave, which is why I was only applying for things that were a really good fit. At this point, though, I’m definitely more motivated to leave than I was before.

        I have been at my current workplace 3.5 years and was at my previous workplace 7 years (my only two professional jobs), so, if I get a new job and it doesn’t work out, I guess it wouldn’t be too horrible to have one short term job on my resume. When I start applying that was also a concern – I didn’t want one two year stint followed by another relatively short stint if I got something new and it didn’t work out, but now that I’m nearing the four year mark, I guess this job hasn’t been a short stint.

      2. Overeducated*

        I agree, I think this sounds like a numbers game and so far the numbers are just small. If you increase the number of applications and your proportion of call backs stays the same, you will wind up with more options. Try adding in more stretch jobs or lateral but slightly different jobs, maybe? I know it’s really hard to do an aggressive job search while already working, especially when just getting through the day sounds so frustrating and draining, though.

        1. Hey Nonnie*

          Yes, and start applying for things that may not be a “perfect” fit on paper. If it’s an 80% fit, go for it. Often job postings are very pie-in-the-sky idealized versions of skillsets that do not exist in reality; and when you actually talk to them, there’s more flexibility in what they’re looking for than is implied by the ad. Sometimes they’ll put their “nice-to-haves” in the same list as their “must-haves.” Or maybe some of their must-haves are close enough to your skills that it’s an opportunity to grow, rather than a barrier to entry. Either way, let them decide if they want to talk to you further, rather than making that choice for them.

          Two applications a month isn’t very much. I’ve felt guilty for only doing two a week. There are times when new job listings are just that thin on the ground, but I generally try for 3-5 a week.

          1. Specialk9*

            They say that men apply with a 60% fit. Read up on that and start upping your numbers. It’s literally just a numbers game.

            Also, if at all possible, open up your geographic area. I applied for 2.5 years without luck, then looked around the country for cities I heard good things about, and that worked.

            A friend knew she wanted to be in NYC, and was able to couch surf and dog watch until she found a good job. (She was careful to be e a very good guest.)

            1. KMB213*

              Unfortunately, I’m pretty settled in my area – I own a home, my mother has a chronic illness and I help care for her (this has lessened recently now that my father is working significantly less in preparation for retirement, but she still relies on me), I have a long-term SO who can’t easily change jobs (basically, he was able to work his way into his position, but no other business would hire him to do it, at near his salary, without a college degree), etc. And, I like my area – I actually moved away for seven years but wound up back here because I love it so much!

              I will, however, expand my search a bit. Right now, the long drive is part of what I hate about my job, so I’ve only been looking closer to home. But, if I can find a job that’s as far as my current one (about a 50 minute drive each way), but better in every other way, it would definitely be a good change.

              Thanks for the suggestion!

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      If I’m reading this correctly, you’ve had three in-person interviews out of roughly twenty-four applications? I don’t actually think that’s out of the norm in terms of application-to-interview ratios.

      Job searching is so frustrating, especially when you’re miserable in your current role. I have no suggestions, but sending you lots of positive vibes1

      1. KMB213*

        Yes, that is correct (now that I think about it more, I may have been looking for closer to 14 months than for a year, but it’s still roughly correct).

        I think I just found my current job and my previous job (my only two professional jobs) way too easily! In both instances, I applied to about five jobs, got at least phone screens at all of them, and got my offers after about two months of looking. I probably need to adjust my expectations!

        And, thanks for the positive vibes!

    4. JD SAHE*

      I hate to make up statistics, but I once read something to the effect that a woman will normally only apply for a job that you meet 80% of the job requirements, and a man will apply for a job that he meets 20%. Maybe start stretching your definition of “meets requirements” more. I’ve never held a job where all my duties – or sometimes even my most common duties – were in the description. Does the other stuff sound interesting, does it sound like something you CAN do? Is it something you’d like to be exposed to? APPLY. The worst thing that can happen is you get a rejection letter. You may discover an unknown passion, or a team that would be perfect.

      2. KMB213*

        Thanks for the advice! I have definitely applied to a few jobs that aren’t ideally what I’d like to do, but that I think I’m well-qualified for based on what I’ve done in the past. I will have to start expanding into jobs where I meet most, but not necessarily all of the qualifications.

      3. CatCat*

        Yes! Please apply for the roles you are perceiving as stretch roles! You will be no worse off for having applied!

        1. TGIF*

          I second this wholeheartedly! The job I’m in now is actually a stretch job that I nearly didn’t apply for. However, the people I met with liked me so much and thought I was a good fit that they changed some of the qualifications of the job slightly that the job was a great fit! And now that I’m in the job, I’m learning things that will one day allow me to fulfill all the original points of the qualifications they dropped.

          So definitely try for reach jobs! The worst that will happen is a rejection; the best might mean a job tweeked slightly so that they can hire you!

      4. Koko*

        Yes, definitely do this. The qualifications in a job ad are a “wish list” – individual items are almost always negotiable as long as the total package you bring to the table has value. I interview people *all the time* who don’t meet every item on the list, but who look like they shine enough in other areas.

        If you don’t have a skill but feel reasonably confident you could pick it up, apply. If you get an interview you can say, “I’ve never used Software X before, but I have used similar applications and have always found it easy to pick up new software,” or whatever equivalent.

        1. KMB213*

          Oh yeah, I wouldn’t mind working at a job I’m overqualified for if the pay is near what I make now (I can take about a $10,000 pay cut if I get health insurance, more than that, it would probably be difficult for me to pay my bills), I just know that, often people won’t interview or hire those they think are overqualified because they think (and are probably often right) that someone way overqualified will get bored and be looking to move on the next position quickly.

    5. TGIF*

      I totally feel you about how job searching can be so disheartening. Trust me, I’m there with you. It took me a year and a half of searching to get out of my crappy job and get to a place where I am so much happier and actually enjoy coming into work in the morning.

      If you don’t mind a suggestion, you need to be much more aggressive with you’re searching. Two applications a month is very, VERY small. I was averaging three to four applications every week and it still took a long time to get out. You can still be picky with where you end up. In fact, it’s better to send more apps out because, even if you just get one interview and never hear from them again, it gives you a feel of other positions and companies.

      I got an offer halfway through my long search and turned it down because I could tell the moment I stepped into the office for the interview that it was just as bad as where I currently was. And it was so empowering to turn it, rather than disheartening, because I was making the choice, rather than taking something out of desperation. So please, PLEASE up your applications or it will take you years to get out. I’d say at least one application a week but preferably more.

      1. KMB213*

        How did you find the time to apply for so many jobs? I work 60 hours a week at my primary job and 15 hours a week at my second job. Add a 1.5-2 hour daily commute and all of my other commitments in to the mix and, on top of not wanting to apply for jobs I won’t even be considered for, I have a lot of trouble finding time to even apply. I guess I need to get better at time management!

        1. Tiny Orchid*

          When I was job searching, the cadence I got into was:

          1) On my lunch break, look at job postings. Pick one job posting to apply to.
          2) After work and dinner, write cover letter and tweak resume.
          3) In the morning, before I left for work, review all the materials and submit.

          It sucked. It felt like all I did was apply for jobs. But it helped to have it broken down into 3 mini-tasks.

          2. KMB213*

            I like this idea, too! I’ll have to get up a bit earlier, but I think doing some of the work in the morning is a good idea!

        2. TGIF*

          Oh well, I certainly wasn’t doing hours like you are! Whoa, sorry, didn’t mean to push it, didn’t realize you were so booked up. When I was job searching, my job only a 40 hour a week job and, while I did have some other commitments, I still had plenty of time in the evenings and weekends to search and apply to jobs. Sorry that I so misunderstood your time restraints.

          Still, I really do think you need to apply more. Even with my high average, a lot of my applications went nowhere. If I sent out 20 applications in a month, I might have gotten three phone interviews and one in person interview. Many of my apps got rejections or simply went silent. Your ratio of apps to phone interviews already seems pretty high so imagine how many more opportunities you would have if you got some more job apps out.

          But maybe you do have to sacrifice some commitment to do more apps. I did turn down fun plans with family and friends because I’d slacked off on applications for a week or two and knew I needed to spend a weekend afternoon applying to openings. It sucked but it was certainly worth it in the end because I’m so much happier now than where I was.

          1. KMB213*

            Oh, I definitely didn’t make it clear that limited time was part of the reason I’ve limited my search!

            And you’re totally right – I likely won’t be able to fit in 3-4 applications a week, but I can at least double what I’m doing and shoot for one a week/four-five a month. It’s a good place to start!

        3. WellRed*

          Can you increase hours at part time job, quit the full time job and ramp up your job search? Can you push back against all the hours at the full time job? I mean, it’s easy for me to say this, but if you are leaving and the boss asks you to do one more thing, what would happen if you said you had a prior committment and it would have to wait until the next day.

          1. KMB213*

            Unfortunately, I can’t. If my primary job gets really bad, I can quit it and live off the part time job and my savings for a bit, but I’d really prefer not to.

            I have tried to push back on staying late, but it’s difficult to do with my current boss and in my current position. I will try to be more assertive moving forward, though.

        4. June*

          Health impact: Could you shorten your hours at your primary job? Maybe have your dr write a note that due to health problems, you can not work more than 40 hours a week. Could you use some of your sick leave to take a day off (cause really, this job is making you ill) and work on your job search? Or take extra sick time before or after a dr appt to work on your job search?
          Readers: I am not asking our poor letter writer to do something unethical but view the time off as taking care of her health.
          Lunch time: Could you job search on your lunch hour (you know, when Mr Nappy is sleeping?)? If you rather not job hunt at the office, maybe go to a library or coffee shop? You really should take your lunch hour since you are probably not getting paid to work that hour. I know that is hard to do but with practice, your “I deserve a lunch hour” muscle gets built up over time.
          Commute: If your commute is on public transportation, could you get a tablet or laptop to work on during the commute?
          Appreciation and support: You are in my prayers cause I know what this is like (too long of a story to share). It’s painful and soul crushing. Your boss does not appreciate your hard work and efforts but us readers know that you are awesome! Your next boss will be so grateful you were hired! hang in there as I can tell you, it gets better!

          1. KMB213*

            I desperately need to shorten the hours at my primary job (including taking my lunch), I am just not assertive enough. It’s also a very small business so, with some of this work, if I don’t do it, no one will. I know that’s not 100% my problem, but I feel like it will cause more stress. I have very limited PTO (10 days/year, to include sick and vacation, but I do get a few holidays on top of that).

            I probably shouldn’t have used the word “commute.” I drive. I have started listening to books on tape (usually for pleasure, not work-related) and that helps make the commute feel shorter! I don’t get any work done, but at least I feel like I’m getting some time back!

            Thanks for the support!

            1. Artemesia*

              Take lunch. Just do it. If Mr. Naphead whines, let him know you will get to this task after lunch. If he is napping all afternoon and you could get the job done if only he would give it to you earlier, then there is time to get it done. SO If a task is layed on you at 5 pm, tell the boss that you have an appointment this evening but will focus on this task first thing in the morning and get those tasks done during the regular work day. Do this matter of factly but firmly. Take some positive steps to not be abused. Yes there is some risk, but most bullies like this fold if met with calm firmness. And working yourself into exhaustion lessens your ability to get a decent job.

              Hope you can pull it off.

            2. Observer*

              Not only is it not 100% your problem, it is not 1% your problem. Or, to turn it around, it is 100% NOT your problem.

              As others suggested, start making after work appointments (even if it’s with your bed) and LEAVE.

      2. KMB213*

        I didn’t mean to sound flip – thank you for the advice! I do feel like I’m applying to nearly everything I see that I’m well-qualified, but not over-qualified for, but maybe I need to look other places.

    6. peachie*

      I’m sorry–that sounds like a stressful and frustrating place to be in. I don’t really have advice, but I’m sending good thoughts and hoping you get to move on from what sounds like a horrible job (homophobic slurs, really? we’re still doing that??).

      You may have already considered this, but do you work in an industry that employment agencies specialize in? My experience is that most employment agencies are bad to mediocre, but some are decent and some are great (particularly the “specialty” ones that focus on sectors like law, marketing, IT, etc). I got my current role through an agency, and they were good about talking through what I wanted to do and being an advocate on my behalf to the companies I was applying for.

      1. KMB213*

        My job function (primarily HR, a bit of administrative work earlier in my career) pretty much exists across all industries. I’d thought about working with an employment agency, but hadn’t taken the leap yet. I do have several acquaintances I met through an HR professionals networking group – I will check in and see if any of them has someone to recommend.

        1. Jadelyn*

          If you’re in HR, do you have a local SHRM chapter you could get in with? Do you have any certifications (PHR or SHRM-CP)? If you don’t, would you be interested in pursuing that (and financially able to)? Those could help boost your candidacy.

    7. Justin*

      You aren’t actually doing very poorly. For your number of applications, that’ s a good response.

      I’d just… apply more? I set myself quotas to hit when I was searching all through 2016. I had to apply for (x) jobs a week, and gave myself a break for holidays or if I had just had an interview, but not a long break. Eventually it worked out.

      1. KMB213*

        I will try giving myself a quota! I think I need to manage my time outside of work better, as well, and really make this a priority over nearly everything else.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I also want to add that doing a slow, choosy job search is incredibly wearing! You feel like you’ve been looking for a year+ (because you have!), but at the same time, your number of applications is pretty small and your progress has actually been pretty good! All of which would feel more true if it had happened over 3 months, not 14. I have 100% been there.

          Good luck to you.

    8. Interested Bystander*

      I applied for over 200 jobs in about six months (located in 3 states because I was willing to relocate), (first half I was working 50/week and second half, I had been laid off) and I got roughly 25 interviews and two offers. I applied to positions that I believed I was at least 70 % qualified for, and a few that I was overqualified for. I wished I had held out for the second offer because it was almost 5K more and more fitting to my skills, but my advice would be to apply as much as possible, to anything that you roughly qualify for.

      1. KMB213*

        Thanks for the advice! I’m definitely getting the impression that I need to be much more aggressive. I will have to change around some things in my schedule and really prioritize this more.

    9. Jadelyn*

      Just looking at the numbers, if you’ve been searching for jobs for about a year, averaging 2 a month…that’s only 24 applications. Of those, 5 phone screens, 3 interviews, 1 where you were a finalist.

      Which means, you’ve got a 21% response rate overall (5 out of 24 resulted in some further contact) and a 12.5% interview rate (3 of 24 jobs interviewed you)/60% move-forward rate from phone screening to interview. Those are actually really solid numbers!

      So the solution may just be to get more aggressive. I mean, obviously don’t apply to anything you’d actually be unhappy to accept, but it might be time to lower your standards a teeny bit – be willing to compromise on some things, in order to get out of the awful environment you’re currently in. How’s your job history? If you’ve been at your current job for awhile, and your job history is solid (few or no short stays), it might be worth taking a less than ideal job for six months just to get you out of hell while you’re still looking for a job you genuinely want.

      1. KMB213*

        Yeah, I will need to apply more aggressively – I haven’t been particularly choosy, even, with applying for jobs that I think I wouldn’t 100% enjoy. Most of the jobs have been that! I’ve just been remiss to apply for positions that I don’t think I have a shot at. I will have to broaden my search in that way, though, and apply for listings where I meet 75%-80% of the qualifications.

        I’ve been at my current job for 3.5 years now and was at the last one for a little over 6.5 years (with one promotion at my current job and two at the previous one) and those have been my only two professional jobs, so I’m not too worried about looking like a job hopper if I’m only in my next position a short time.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I have no suggestions other than you’re probably going to have to step up the applications and take something less than optimal in order to get out of there. It sounds, frankly, like a flaming ball of suck.

  4. Lily*

    Wondering: how many readers here are outside the US? And if you don’t work in the US (or have worked abroad in the past), are there any pieces of advice here that you’re reasonably certain would /not/ be applicable outside the US?

    (I think most of the advice here is great and highly transferrable, however there have been a few instances where people have said ‘hang on, this wouldn’t fly in the UK/Europe/Asia etc. I’m in the UK myself but have only been here little over a year so not all that familiar with the norms, so it’s really helpful to have that kind of stuff pointed out.)

    1. Aleta*

      I’m also interested! I was a third culture kid, and I’m interested in moving back to Asia after grad school (specifically Japan, which I miss and I’m not one to miss places). I was old enough to be involved with things like opening bank accounts and buying appliances (did you know you can’t return things in Hong Kong?), but not job searching.

    2. Savannnah*

      Having worked in Asia and the US, I would say the biggest difference in SE Asia (and I’m generalizing) is that among your work peers, age is a big issue in terms of approachability. If someone is your work peer but much older than you, you would need to treat them with some deference when you are interacting with them which does not seem to be the case in the US. Also, if its an important meeting, there will be food in SE Asia. Even if it’s a 15 min important meeting.

      1. spinetingler*

        “Also, if its an important meeting, there will be food in SE Asia. ”

        That is also how I determine whether a meeting is important here. . .

    3. Perpetua*

      I’m in Eastern Europe and the first thing that comes to my mind is that post-interview thank you notes are not really done here.

      References are also not much of a thing over here. Reference letters are sometimes done, but most people don’t care much about those. It’s very rare that a potential employer contacts previous ones for references (it usually happens more if there’s a personal connection or the hiring manager knows someone at that employer).

      Also, you usually give a month’s notice, but that depends on the laws of the specific country as well.

      1. Almost Violet Miller*

        Eastern Europe here as well and I absolutely agree. I’d add that PTO and sick leave are regulated by law in a different way (at least in the countries I am familiar with) so many of the scenarios brought up in questions are very alien to my experiences.
        Most of the advice is transferable and can be used in situations I or my colleagues and friends encounter.

    4. Charlotte in HR*

      I’m in the UK and I’d say the overwhelming majority of general how-to-deal-with-bosses-and-colleagues advice is transferable to UK workplaces. The only area of advice which is hugely different is where it comes to employment law – we have vastly greater legal protection against being unreasonably dismissed from a job (including being bullied out of a job), and some quite different legislation relating to equality and discrimination.

      1. WorkingOnIt*

        We supposedly have this protection, but with the erosion of the Unions and the pay-to-play aspect of work tribunal – it’s not that accessible or equal anymore.

      2. Fisharenotfriends*

        I’m from Canada and it’s pretty much this as well, since a lot of our law was passed on from the brits.

        The lack of employment protection in the US is scary.

    5. Zahra*

      A lot of the “is this illegal?” questions actually result in “yes, this is illegal” in Canada.

      Otherwise, I’ve found that most of the rest of the advice applies.

      1. DDJ*

        I second this! It’s actually disheartening to read the question, and think “Yes! This is super illegal! There are protections in place for this,” but then to see the answer that in the US (or at least “in most states in the US”), “No, this isn’t illegal, you boss/company just sucks.”

        I also don’t think that thank-you notes after an interview are a thing here, but I don’t do a whole lot of hiring, so maybe I just haven’t personally seen it.

        1. UnabashedVixen*

          Yes, I’ve noticed this too! I’m in British Columbia, Canada, and many, many times, I’m like “yeah, that’s illegal,” only to find out from Allison it’s perfectly legal in the US! Canada doesn’t really do “at-will” employment, which seems to be a big difference with the US.

          I have sent thank you emails after interviews, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone sending a real thank-you card.

        2. EA in CA*

          As someone in Canada who does send thank you notes after an interview, I can attest that because it isn’t a popular thing there, it did give me extra notice in the last position I applied to and was offered. In that role, I took over HR and in my file, I saw copies of my thank you emails attached to my application with notes saying along the lines that it was appreciated, a nice touch, and added to my candidacy.

          I do a fair bit of recruiting now and even a quick thank you is appreciated.

          1. oranges & lemons*

            I’m also in Canada, but I think my industry might just be a little snarkier than most, or something. People seem a bit nonplussed when I send them a thank-you note.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      UK person here! Lots of the advice is great but some of it definitely isn’t. (Thank-you notes after interviews, refusing to say why you were off sick…)

      1. Irishgal*

        You’re employer has no right to know why you are off sick as that is private data under DPA. There is just a culture/mistaken belief that they do.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          That has absolutely nothing to do with the DPA!

          It’s pretty normal here to ask why you were off in case you need support coming back. In my experience it is Not Done to not say why.

        3. Bagpuss*

          That’s not strictly correct.

          The DPA is all about how data is kept, how it is used etc. Also, it only applies to data held by organisations, not individual, so you telling (or not telling) your employer wouldn’t engage the DPA, although what your employer does with that information may, potentially do so. And the DPA (among other things) would also be relevant if your employer was asking a third party such as your GP, for information

          That said, your employer doesn’t have a right to that information, but they are entitled to make decisions about your employment based on the information available to them, including how you behave. So if you don’t want to say what was wrong, you can’t be forced to, but your employer is free to draw conclusions from that, and to draw inferences. (probably not relevant most of the time, but potentially important if you were to be off a lot, or had a pattern of sickness that appeared questionable)

      2. SarahKay*

        Another UK-person here, and I’d agree with Ramona Flowers.
        Also, a lot of the ‘Is it legal?’ questions where Alison says it is, would not be legal here.
        Finally, two weeks’ notice would be considered really short for any professional job I’ve come across – I’d expect to have to give at least a month, and my current contract requires me to give two months’ notice.

        2. Bagpuss*

          It does. Three months is standard in my industry, and I think 1 month is normal for most admin / support staff.

          The fact that it doesn’t seem to be standard to have (written) employment contracts in the US feels really weird to me, too.

          1. SkyePilot*

            The only time I’ve given my two week notice, they only let me stay on one week, which, honestly would probably have given me enough time to write up a transition document had not my access to every internal system been revoked the day I gave notice. Only found out later at HR exit interview that this was my boss being petty and not a standard practice…

    8. Julianne*

      I’m American but worked in southern Africa for several years. It’s very common to include your marital status and health status on your resume, and I’ve seen resumes that also included lines stating the applicant’s religion/church affiliation and number of children (although the latter two are definitely less common to include). References (which are usually letters provided by the applicant, although I work in a field in the US where reference letters are the norm) also tend to tell-not-show (“Fergus is a trustworthy person” as opposed to “Fergus did X [which demonstrates that he is trustworthy]), and getting a letter of reference from a notable person is more important than getting one from a person who knows the applicant well. (I ruffled a lot of feathers early on when I declined to write references for people I’d never met, until someone set me straight on that practice. It’s viewed as extremely rude to decline without some very obvious and outstanding reason, and not knowing the applicant isn’t a good enough reason.)

      For context, I worked in a local/regional public sector context, and my coworkers all were high school graduates or college-educated. My work also involved working with people in small private businesses and companies on a local/regional level. I don’t know if these practices were the same at larger companies or those based abroad or with a more international presence. My guess is that norms at those types of places might be more American/“Western”, but I’m not sure.

        1. Thlayli*

          I remember when it was common to put “Health: excellent” on your resume. This in theory would give you an advantage for physical jobs and it was so common that leaving it out was like saying “I have bad health and will take lots of time off sick/be unable to work” so everyone put it on.
          But now thankfully we have equality legislation so you can’t refuse to hire someone on the basis of health, so that practice has disappeared.

        2. Julianne*

          I honestly have no idea. My impression was that everyone just put “good” or even “excellent” even if those descriptors weren’t accurate. I’m also glad that it sounds like that’s going away, because I agree that it was very problematic!

      2. AMT*

        What is the purpose of a letter of recommendation if it’s not from someone who knows the candidate well? Why is that useful to the hiring manager?

        1. OhNo*

          Sounds like it would serve more as evidence of a social connection – not unlike having a friend of a friend pass your resume along to their HR department. I think we do something like it here in the US through networking, just not quite as formally. When I’ve been involved in hiring, it’s been more of an, “Oh, you know so-and-so?” conversation.

          1. Julianne*

            Yes, exactly. It demonstrated that the applicant had connections (even if those connections really had no bearing on the position), and was really more about an ingrained convention rather than providing the hiring manager with information about the applicant’s skills. Which I realize sounds strange outside of that context, but everyone I ever told about the “American” way of doing references was like, “That’s so rude, that would never happen here!

      1. Zahra*

        Hmmm, that hasn’t been my experience. Pretty much everything about work relationships seems applicable (i.e. how to have a conversation on X, how to apply, interview advice, etc.). On the other hand, FMLA, PTO, etc. really isn’t relevant to Canada.

        1. Monsters of Men*

          That’s what I mean :) Advice that has something along the lines of “In the States, [legislation] [rule] [social norm] etc.” sometimes is weirdly not the same here.

    10. WAnon*

      Having worked in both HK/Singapore and the US, I’d say there are more things that don’t fly in the US vs HK/Singapore. I definitely was asked about family expectations, whether my husband was employed, whether I expected to have children soon, and things like that in HK. This would obviously not fly in the States.

      I did find it interesting that there was more of an expectation to go through recruiters in HK – both roles I had there were through placements.

      There is also, I think, more of an expectation to work longer hours in Asia, especially if you’re in a role that occasionally interacts with the US. Asia is always the one that gets on late calls, not the US, but that may have been my particular firm.

    11. WorkingOnIt*

      From the UK – generally no such thing as a hiring manager – or at least not that term, and thank you letters are not a done thing here, I have a feeling they’d be considered kind of slimy over here. But then again it could also work in your favour, especially if you actually have something additional and relevant to say to the person, as it’s unusual.

      1. zora*

        “hiring manager” is just a term for the person who is making the decision to hire you, and is usually also going to be your direct manager when you are hired. How do you refer to that person in the UK? Or is the decision maker separate from your direct manager?

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          You know, someone else made a similar comment recently (maybe yesterday?). I wonder how wide-spread that misconception is.

          1. zora*

            I noticed that, too, and I agree. But since WorkingOnIt seems to not hear that term in the UK, I am super curious about how people refer to the people making the hiring decisions, then!

      2. Glacier*

        To clarify, a hiring manager isn’t a manager who is in charge of all hiring, but rather the manager who will be in charge of the open position, and is thus helping to hire for just that position.

        For example, if the open position is Teapot Quality Analyst, the Manager of Teapot Quality would be referred to as the “hiring manager.”

    12. ALadyfromBrazil*

      I’m from Brazil and here the work laws are quite different. For example:

      – maternity leave: 4 months in private business and 6 months in government jobs (if private aderes to a government program, then the employees get the 6 months too); there are 20 days for paternity leave too (for government jobs and government program, 5 days for private business); full paid (in private business, paid by social security).

      – vacation: 30 days per year, regardless of how many years you are at the same company or company policy. Teachers have 45 days of vacation per year, same amount for people who work operating x-ray machines.

      – sick leave: full paid in government jobs; in private business, 15 days paid by the company and after that, the leave is paid by social security BUT you must present a note from your doctor declaring how many days you need for recover and the type of disease by CID number (for 1 day or for 1 year). If you don’t want to disclose what kind of disease you have, there’s a CID number specific for that. Of course that, depending on your relationship with your manager/boss, you can get a day or two off for minor sickness or doctor appointment.

      We don’t use cover letters and references so frequently. I think its more for high paid jobs then entry and mid level jobs.

      If you want to work for government as public agencies, universities (we have a plenty of them), schools, etc., them you need to apply for an exame e get good grades on it. After 3 years in your job you get stability and only can be fired after an investigation process for any kind of misconduct.

      This is what I remember now. If anyone wants to know more, please tell me.

      p.s. I’m exercising my writing skills, so any correction is also welcome.

      1. Glacier*

        Your writing skills are great! My one correction would be for the sentence “I think its more for high paid jobs then entry and mid level jobs.”

        It should be “…jobs THAN entry…” since it is comparing two groups.

          1. Natalie*

            I know memory devices in another language are hard for me to remember, so if you aren’t a native English speaker this may be less than helpful. But just in case: “then” and “time” both have an E in the word, and “than” and “compare” both have an A.

            1. ALadyfromBrazil*

              Nice sugestion! Actually, they are useful for me. And they were useful for to learn the past tenses patterns :D

              Thank you!

        1. Dede*

          I’m from Brazil too and had no idea about it. I bet it’s because of the cesium accident we had.

          1. ALadyfromBrazil*

            Not actually. Its because of the risks involved in dealing with radiation. The understanding is that the worker needs more time without expose themselves to radiation.

            The cesium accident happened from a machine used to do radiation therapy in cancer patients. Its a different kind of radiation in x-rays.

    14. London Actuary*

      I’m in the UK (I’ve worked in SE Asia too) and something I’ve noticed a few times is how much stricter the US advice regarding alcohol is. At least in my industry, it’s very common to go to the pub together, get drunk together, and even turn up at work the next day hungover. Can’t speak for other areas of work in the UK though.

      Almost equal and opposite is the approach to cannabis here! I was really surprised at the response to the lady who reported her colleagues for smoking cannabis in the hotel room. I must admit that I would also have reported them.

    15. Polly*

      Bermuda here. I find legality here is UK-based but social and procedural work norms are primarily North American. There’s always a bit of that weird island quirk, however….

    16. Thlayli*

      I’m in EU and have lived and worked in three EU countries. Most of the rules over here are the same from country to country with small differences. Some things that have really shocked me from this site are:
      1 there’s no legal requirement for paid leave. Here we are legally entitled to 4 weeks paid leave (pro-Rata for part time or hourly workers) and if you have holiday hours remaining when you leave they get paid in your last paycheque
      2 employers are the one who pay unemployment, and people can be refused unemployment if the employer has a good reason for firing them. Over here unemployment is paid from social security fund (called different things in different countries but that’s basically what it is). All employees have to pay social security and when they are unemployed they automatically get benefit from this fund regardless of the reason they are let go. If they voluntarily resign they may have to wait a specified amount of time (where I live now the first 2 weeks I think are unpaid if you voluntarily resign). Also there is a limit to the amount of time you get unemployment (here it’s 9 months) and after that you have to apply for social welfare (which is means tested.)
      3 lots of companies are exempt from providing basis employer rights. That’s just weird.
      4 it’s normal for women to only have a few short weeks off after birth. That’s basically where we were a generation ago, so hopefully in a couple of decades you might have actual maternity leave.
      5 at-will employment. It’s weird. Over here you need a reason to fire someone, you can’t just say “I don’t like you, you’re fired”. You have to follow process like giving someone warnings and chances to improve. You can only be fired outright for specific things listed in your contract (e.g. Stealing or sexual harassment). You can also fire someone for business reasons like if you are letting people go, but again you have to follow due process and have a reason for selecting the people you select.

      Also a lot of specific language just isn’t used between countries – some phrases that are used in America just aren’t used in the U.K. at all for example. So you’d have to “translate” a lot of the wording.

      1. Thlayli*

        Also I just found out downthread that it’s normal in America for there not to be a toilet brush beside the toilet. So if yo get the toilet dirty you are just expected to leave it dirty. Yuck. Over here most toilets in workplaces have brushes beside them and you are generally expected to leave it as you found it. However, I have on occasion had to share toilets with men… and many men do NOT follow this rule … one of the reasons I detest sharing toilets with men (that and wet seats – gross)

        1. TL -*

          In NZ, there’s also the toilet brush (and the nice passive aggressive note asking people to use the toilet brush.)
          I can’t say I’ve noted as the toilets were any cleaner in NZ than in my workplaces in America -they got cleaned every day by janitors in the States and flushed frequently that it was rare to see any sort of marks.

      2. Lindsay J*

        For #2, it varies by the state here.

        However, unemployment is not paid directly by the employer to the employee.

        It’s paid to the employee by the state’s unemployment office. The unemployment office gets the money from the company via unemployment insurance the companies pay. The amount of unemployment insurance a company pays is dependent on several factors – how many unemployment claims have been paid against them is one of the factors.

        Again, it depends on the state what qualifies or disqualifies you for unemployement. However, the company does not get to make the decision unilaterally.

        When you lose your job you file for unemployment (you don’t get benefits automatically – you have to apply to be considered). If your company doesn’t contest your unemployement claim, you get benefits. If the company does contest your unemployment claim, then there is a hearing and the company has to present evidence that you lost your job for a disqualifying reason (and you would present evidence you had that you were not to counter that).

        Disqualifying reasons depend on the state. Generally, quitting your job means you won’t get unemployment. However, in some states, if it’s determined that a reasonable person that wanted to work would quit, then you might be able to. In most states if you are fired for gross misconduct – punching someone, theft, harassment, etc – you won’t get unemployment. In some states if you were fired for poor job performance you will be able to collect unemployment. In some you will not. In pretty much all states if you were laid off you will be able to collect unemployment.

        Usually how much money you get from unemployment is based on your wages from a certain time period before your layoff. You usually can collect for at least 6 months. Again, varies by state.

        And you usually need to be able to prove that your are ready, willing, and able to work during the period that you are collecting unemployment. This sometimes consists of going to classes set up by the unemployment office or state workforce commission, sometimes by showing that you have made so many job contacts per week, etc.

        1. Thlayli*

          That sounds a lot better than what I had thought! We also have to prove we are ready and willing to work, which sometimes means going to courses, or presenting evidence of interviews attended.

    17. Em Too*

      UK and government/large company here. Most seems pretty relevant but the PTO/FMLA/vacation approach is really different. Sick leave is very generous (full pay for several weeks then half pay for months for us, though legal min is about £90pw) but is only if you personally have a health problem or illness. Vacation is completely separate. Which means that people who’ve been ill/injured get a vacation too.

    18. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      There are not such things as non-competes, cover letters or thank you notes. The latter would make you look like a creep, and your CV would go right away to the reject pile.
      There are a minimum Healthcare coverage and vacation/annual leave (and special leave) specified by law. It may vary depending on the employer or Union (if there’s any).

    19. Hey Nonnie*

      Semi-related and highly theoretical (probably fantasyland) tangent: is anyone somewhat familiar with general immigration rules for people seeking employment in the UK/Ireland, EU, or Canada? I assume that any country will have rules in place that amount to “why hire a foreigner when we have perfectly good citizens here,” but I wondered about how high the bar is to prove your uniqueness as a worker. Do you need to have a job and a sponsoring employer before moving, or can you move first and then look for work? What if you’re self-employed and can basically work from anywhere? What if you lose your job or can’t find enough work after the move? Are basic social / employment protections different for non-citizen expats?

      1. Bagpuss*

        For the UK there are different types of working visa, and the criteria vary (so for instance, the rules are different if you work for a multi-national company and are moving, than if you are coming to work as an au pair . I think that normally you have to have a job lined up and your employer has to ‘sponsor’ you. There are entrepreneurs visas for people starting businesses.
        Employment rights are the same. Entitlement to social security / benefits are different than for UK citizens. I think most visa have conditions which mean you aren’t eligible for some (most?) benefits, and you pay a surcharge when you immigrate which then entitles you to use NHS services.

      2. Thlayli*

        The rules are different for different countries. There’s usually pretty clear information on the internet though. I think where I live you need a job with a minimum of €30,000 to qualify for a visa and the employer is the one who applies for the visa not the applicant. But I’m not sure.
        If you are from an EU country or entitled by parentage to an EU passport you can move freely between countries and work without a visa. I know people who’s parents or grandparents are EU citizens who applied for and got EU passports and then came here to work.

    20. bluesboy*

      I’m in Italy and 99% of things relating to managing people are perfectly relevant here because…well, people are people! But anything contractual is a mile off!

      Every industry basically has a national contract, and that has to be followed by the company. So my wife, a teacher, will always have 34 days holiday per year. I’m in finance, I get 22. No negotiating, that’s how it is. Notice periods, trial periods, all pre-decided.

      I remember too how shocked I was when I read ‘two weeks notice’ on this site. My last job required 4 months…

    21. Book Lover*

      I am in the US, but in the medical field. We’d be expected to give at least 3-4 months notice, given how far ahead patients are scheduled, and that wouldn’t really be an issue, as getting privileges typically takes that long after you get a new job anyhow. I am only mentioning that because several people are commenting on the two weeks notice being standard and that really massively depends on what job you have.

      1. TL -*

        Yeah, I’ve worked in academia and academia labs in hospitals and two weeks’ notice is alright for some positions but I’ve generally given several months – I think 7 was the most? – as have most of my coworkers.
        But you announce your intentions for your next move pretty publicly, and usually your boss will help you find a good position. I know people who have loosely announced up to a year ahead.

    22. Rebeck*

      I’m in Australia. I worked for a few years in law firms and have since had 10+ years in libraries across local government, public education and universities.

      A one-page resume seems ridiculously short. Leaving any job post-University off seems completely wrong to me, because then you’ll have a gap that needs explaining.

      A significant proportion of jobs here have selection criteria that must be answered in the application. These are short-answer questions that should usually take up to a page each to answer. This is standard in many, many fields.

      Thank you notes just seem a bit try-hard, but calling before application with questions is really common.

      The only place I’ve ever heard the term ‘hiring manager’ is here. Addressing something to ‘Dear Hiring Manager’ would seem so odd.

      Phone interviews are not something I’ve come across. Nor are interviews where you meet possible colleagues or tour the workspace (except in my most recent experience) – in local government we weren’t even allowed to know who had applied for jobs rather than getting to meet anyone up for the job of our new manager!

      All the usual healthcare, PTO, workplace relations laws etc caveats.

      1. Aussie academic*

        Fellow aussie here, and as my name suggests, most of my experience is with universities.

        I agree with Rebeck that thank you notes are really not done here, and I don’t think they’d go down well. And a one page resume sounds almost ridiculous in terms of how short it is, although I only see CVs here, not resumes (but that may be the nature of academia). I have come across phone interviews, but only when a candidate is not local, rather than as a screen before an in-person interview, although that may be done for other kinds of jobs. Oh, and I can’t see anyone writing ‘dear hiring manager’ in a cover letter – I think ‘to whom it may concern’ is more used here if you don’t know the hiring manager’s name.

        A few other differences I’ve noticed is it’s pretty common for people to take 6 months/ 1 year maternity leave; it’s generally acceptable to take a long block of holidays (we generally get 4 weeks/year and I usually take it all at once – it takes so long to travel from Australia to Europe or the US that we like to travel for a longer period and make it worthwhile); the legal arrangements are closer to the UK/Canada than the US for most workplace issues.

        And to add to Rebek’s comment re selection criteria, this is something that’s often ignored by international applicants to their detriment, perhaps because it’s not common elsewhere. I’m currently reviewing applications for an entry level research job and have 96 applications. About half are from international applicants and many (perhaps most) of these have not addressed the selection criteria. I feel sorry for these applicants because they won’t even be considered, even though some of them seem from their CVs to have extensive experience (and the application materials are very clear about the need to address the selection criteria).

        On the whole though, I find many of the issues and the advice offered here applies very well.

        1. Chipu*

          Fellow Aussie here, and I just wanted to comment on selection criteria. I think it’s largely a public service thing- in my experience, I was never asked for selection criteria in the private sector, but have had to complete them every time I applied for a public service job. I am currently on a hiring panel for a public service job and there are very prescriptive rules for candidate selection, which is one of the reasons the SC are used.

        2. Prof Wrangler*

          American academic CVs can also be several pages long. You’re expected to list all your publications, board positions, and so on. I work for an American academic organization with international membership, and the CVs I’ve seen from different countries seem fairly similar in that respect.

          American schools hiring admin/support staff go for the one-page resume. Australian schools might be the same, I’m not sure.

      2. Random Thought*

        Regarding selection criteria – I work in local government in the US, and it’s not uncommon for jobs to have “Supplemental Questions” as part of the online application, which must be filled out in order to submit. I haven’t come across this with private companies in my area, and not sure what the practice is in other states!

    23. Fieldpoppy*

      Im in Canada (Ontario) and, as a consultant, work in a variety of settings, mostly healthcare and education. I think most of the advice about interactions and relational expectations applies equally. There are big cultural differences around expectations for time off, though — and I heard this in both Allison’s advice and the comments on it. We expect and value significant parental leave in Canada — we think it’s a common good. In Ontario you can take up to 18 months off, variously supported by Employment Insurance (not great money but something), and top ups from employers (more generous in public sector unionized environments) and it’s taken for granted that the vast majority of people will take most or all of their parental leave. Similarly, we generally assume that you SHOULD take all of your vacation time, and that a week at a time isn’t enough. We have a notion that you are a better employee when you go away sometimes ;-).

      The other major difference is that while benefits are a nice perk here, they are not the deal-breaker they can be in the US. Our health benefits are to fill in the 30 percent of the health system that isn’t funded (dental, prescriptions for adults, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, etc), not to keep you from going bankrupt if you get sick.

      And because we hold a certain common good about these things, we TEND (not absolutely, but tend) to be more sanguine about higher taxes to fund these things we value.

    24. Felicia*

      I’m in Canada and it’s really just the workplace law stuff and anything to do with the health care system that doesn’t apply. I skip posts /comments that mention that

    25. tamarack and fireweed*

      I’m in the US now, but spent most of my working life in France and the UK (and most of my studies in Germany). The differences are what you’d expect. For example, a situation like Lillian’s above, where an assistant is terminated with no notice just because their boss was fired would be completely illegal even I think in the UK (where employment protections are very roughly somewhere between France/Germany and the US). There are of course differences between the European countries. In France, you want to be terminated rather than go on your own because you wouldn’t qualify for unemployment right away if you decide to leave. In Germany there’s more of a stigma about being fired. There are also different attitudes about salary confidentiality. Health insurance is not a significant factor in keeping/seeking employment (for a vast majority), and everyone has an entitlement to paid leave.

      More subtly, the social aspect of larger differences between, say, a minimum-wage worker and a college-educated office employee, or between the 20th and the 80th percentile in the income distribution, makes for somewhat different relations across the social space.

      What’s widely applicable is the whole how-to-deal-with-bosses-and-colleagues aspect, interviewing and recruiting, ethical dilemmas.

    26. Julie Noted*

      Australian. The things that have stood out the most to me:

      * Thankyou notes. Weird.

      * Multiple rounds of winnowing down candidates in the recruitment process (phone screen, two or more interviews). Never experienced it myself or know of friends who have except for very senior roles at large companies or working in the military or counter-intelligence fields.

      * Everything to do with leave, both legal rights and cultural norms. Have plenty, it rolls over, it’s normal to use it in big chunks. (I myself have had 3 five week holidays and one 9 week holiday in my 12 year career in this industry, because I prefer to batch it up than take shorter periods more often).

      * Firing/ “letting someone go”. Except in small business or casual workers, unfair dismissal laws apply.

      * Hostile environment is what it sounds like, not a narrow legal term related to “protected class”. WHS laws cover mental health and emotional wellbeing, so if your workplace environment damages those through belligerence or negligence the business is potentially on the hook. It’s not acceptable to treat *anyone* like shit.

      * From the serious to the light: any time someone refers to lunch as a particular time I think “man, that’s early”.

      * Back to serious. Starbucks is not good coffee and neither is what is produced by those pod machines. My local economy is fueled on coffee, from the CEO to the tradie, so trust me that this is important.

      * I will never have anything to share on the snow day discussions.

        1. Julie Noted*

          No, but we do have a thing where if it’s extremely hot weather and your workplace has no cooling (or the cooling system isn’t working properly) you can get sent home on full pay. If you work outside there are analogous arrangements to ensure the workforce doesn’t get brain damage from heat stroke.

      2. Julie Noted*

        A couple of other things I forgot:

        * Paid internships for uni students. Not a thing until recently, outside specific professions where the course has a practical component. Now starting to crop up a little, but far from common. In my experience in a business that brings on interns, they’re more socioeconomically privileged than the average student, so more connections for those who need them least hooray.

        * unpaid internships. Illegal.

        * being a union member does not protect you from discipline or firing, and it doesn’t advance your promotion chances.

    27. MissDisplaced*

      I LOVE this thread! And I hope Alison makes it a regular topic.
      Some of this I was aware of having worked for a small but global company (such as working to a contract, time off in Europe, etc.) but I think more American employees need to learn about the benefits and protections non-US workers receive. US employees often feel so powerless (and are powerless) working under a skewed system they are conditioned (ie. brainwashed) into believing that their being screwed-over by wealthy companies somehow helps the economy (as in having pitiful vacation time or healthcare/maternity benefits, or being fired on a whim helps the economy by giving businesses more money to hire more people overall).
      I know it’s been said sometimes in the threads on here ‘what good does it do for non-US people to comment about the lack of vacation time and/or protections issues when it doesn’t offer the US employee any useful advice (because they can’t change it), but it does! Knowledge is power.
      Because you can’t fix a BROKEN employment system if you don’t know the system itself is broken!

    28. Akcipitrokulo*

      In UK…

      Thank you letters aren’t a thing for interviews. It would be really weird and feel inappropriate to send one, and receiving one, to me, would put candidate in the gimicky category like using flowery paper or green ink.

      Horrified a lot of the time a out the lack of protection employees have. “At will” employment is terrifying!!! After probation, you must have a reason to terminate someone, either for conduct or redundancy, whixh has its own rules (hiwever… these are being eroded… main thing is that you may technically have these rights but companies aren’t held to a lot of them until youve been there two years.)

      And most people don’t have a contract? I’d assume no employment contract = dodgy boss that’s doing something they don’t want taxman to know about!

      Also how little maternity leave you get in US makes me sad…

      Questions about health insurance as a benefit aren’t relevant, and make me thankful for Nye Bevan over and over again!

      “Dear Hiring Manager” sounds rude to my ear, but may be a personal thing.

      But how to talk to people… how to deal with issues sensitively… how to stay professional and deal with issues honestly… this is pretty universal.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        ooh! forgot data protection! There have been a few places where “can I/they do X?” and the answer is “yes” where my reaction is “No! That’s a breach of DPA!”

        (DPA = Data Protection Act… here it’s mostly that you cannot use someone’s data without their consent for a purpose for which it wasn’t intended, and remember specifically a question about “can I see my references/interview notes?”…. the answer was no, but here it’s a definite of course you can… it’s one of your DPA rights to see all data held about you (witha very few, limited exceptions).

    29. Tuesday Next*

      Love this thread!

      I’m in South Africa. The advice on office etiquette, dealing with a difficult colleague or manager, and general “how to behave” / interpersonal stuff is mostly very useful. I’ve learnt a lot from Alison on how to approach difficult situations.

      Our labour laws are vastly different. Employees have substantial protection and most people have a contract (or should have one, but very small companies might try to flout that). People don’t just get fired. There is no at-will employment. I’m horrified by how easily people can lose their jobs in the US, through no fault of their own.

      We have minimum legislated personal and sick leave days. Much more generous than the US. Your company cannot take personal leave days away if you don’t use them. Your sick leave is only for when you personally are sick. Notice periods are typically one calendar month. I usually try to give more, 5-6 weeks if possible. In a recent job I had to give 2 months.

      Thank you notes and cover letters are not really a thing. I have more recently started writing a quick thank you email (because of AAM) but I’ve never written a cover letter. I’ve also never had anyone phone my references. In fact I’m hardly ever asked for references. But in my industry people will check LinkedIn to see who you know, and get feedback on you that way (without your knowledge).

      Sometimes there are discussions / perspectives on AAM that are odd for me. For example, the conversation about whether it was okay to provide a second (kosher) kitchen and who should have access to it. Here, most people would consider it reasonable, a practical solution, and not get all het up about it. As long as other groups had the same access (e.g. Halaal kitchen, or a Halaal section in the canteen). We seem to be more pragmatic that way. Also different is what would be considered sexual harassment. The US seems to be much more strict when considering what would be sexual harassment. A crass joke here might get a laugh, a raised eyebrow or a request to tone it down, but it wouldn’t result in a sexual harassment charge.

      Something that always fascinates me is the office potluck. That is definitely not a thing here. I’ve also never worked anywhere where people brought Crockpots to the office, decorated their cubicle for the holidays or were allowed to bring their pets to work.

      So yeah, many many cultural differences.

    30. Miaw*

      What I have noticed is that USA does not have legally mandatory maternity leave, sick leave and annual leave. Even ‘less developed countries’ than USA have all that… not having mandatory maternity leave is just so absolutely bizzare…

    31. DeveloperDodo*

      I am in the Netherlands, and while most of the interpersonal advice is applicable, the legal side is far different.
      -Salaried employees (indefinite time contracts) cannot be fired unless for a very good reason, and unless the employee agrees, which almost always happens, it needs to go to the “canton” judge (or a lower court)
      -Vacation days, we get 20 paid vacation days by law, and most companies add 5 on top of that, weekends never count towards this (unless your working days are weekends).
      -Sick days, no limit on sick days, it is not legal to request a doctor’s note, any sickness that lasts less than 2 weeks must be handled normally, longer than that, you get into one hell of a bureaucratic hole
      -You can’t fire someone who’s on sick leave

      There are some tradeoffs though:
      -Taxes are through the roof (30% income tax is not unusual, and not only for the higher incomes)
      -Salary is a lot less than the US.
      -A lot of bureaucratic oversight.

  5. Gifts Ahoy*

    I work with a team that often sends gifts to clients. Not just thank you’s for projects but also ‘check in’ gifts or personal gifts for engagements, weddings, births, etc. I often help with arraigning gifts. Lately my coworkers who I am helping have been asking for more thoughtful gifts, without giving me any guidance. Typically we send flowers, bottles of wine, and food gift baskets as gifts which always seem well received. But my coworkers want things that are more interesting, more engaging. I’m stumped as to what else we could give.

    Anyone have any advice or plugs for corporate gifts given or received that were more exciting than typical food, flowers, or liquor? Thanks!

    1. KMB213*

      A lot of our clients aren’t in our area, so we give them local gifts from our town, region, or state.

      For example, we’ll give a gift basket with a candle from the store just down the street from us, some chocolate buckeye candies, etc.

      It’s not hugely personalized based on the recipient, but they go over well.

      1. Manders*

        This is my go-to technique for finding a thoughtful gift for someone when I don’t know much about their personal preferences. Some gift basket companies like Harry & David even have options from different regions, so you can send someone a regional gift without having to run around to a bunch of different stores assembling it yourself.

        I’m generally a fan of sending consumable gifts to clients rather than objects that might get thrown out or clutter up their work area.

        1. WAnon*

          Yes! Consumables are the best because it’s also likely an easily shareable object for the entire clients’ office. Localized options, like chocolate, specialized nuts, or other non-alcoholic options are my recommendations of choice.
          One great idea for new births that I particularly liked at an old company was a baby onesie version of the company’s slogan/logo/pithy saying. This company had a well-known tagline, and they printed up onesies with this and packaged it with a standard baby cap and flowers for births. I feel that this may not work for general gifts (like fleeces or other materials) but is particularly great for babies since they grow out of it so quickly and need so many changes of clothing regularly that it stands a chance of being used.

          1. AnonEMoose*

            My friends with kids tell me that it’s also difficult to have too many receiving blankets, and I imagine you could order customized ones somewhere. I’d get neutral colors like lavender, green, or yellow, but those could also work well.

            1. It's Business Time*

              We order baby blankets from Pottery Barn with the initials embroidered on it as well. These are always well recieved

              1. AnonEMoose*

                Those sound really cute!

                If you decide to look into onesies, I remember something one friend mentioned. As part of my baby gift to her, I gave her a package of onesies that fastened with zippers. She said she ended up loving them, because they were easier to fasten on a squirming baby than the ones with snaps. So, maybe zippers or velcro would be good to look at.

          2. Kyrielle*

            If you do this, I’d suggest a 3-6 month size. Or at least 0-3. Some babies are out of the “newborn” size *really fast* (in fact, neither of mine were ever able to wear it at all).

      2. ContentWrangler*

        This is dependent on how well you know your clients/what industry you’re in but my dad is in an industry where he gets a lot of client gifts and while the food is always appreciated, he really enjoys the ones that are tailored to his hobbies. He’s really into golf and skiing so clients sometimes give branded gear. His industry also requires a lot of formal business wear so he’s gotten gift cards to nice stores, even one gift card for a nice sunglasses brand from a client in California which I though was fun.

      3. peachie*

        We do that, too! In the past we’ve found high quality coffee table-type photo books of our region, and they seemed to go over well.

    2. LCL*

      Tell your coworkers the gifts will continue to be flowers, wine, and food unless THEY have other suggestions. (I work for the government, I once was given a handful of hard candy as a thank you from an appreciative customer.)

      1. Gifts Ahoy*

        Some of the guilty parties are my supervisors who just keep say ‘But I want to send something more’ with no other thoughts so I don’t know how much I can push back…

        1. AMPG*

          Can you ask them to clarify “more”? Bigger? More expensive? More exclusive? Each of those options would result in a different gift.

          1. zora*

            I agree, ask them to give you a few minutes to talk through it, because you aren’t sure what they want. And another question in addition to AMPG’s: More personalized?? If they want it more personalized, say you need them to tell you more about this person. Do you know her well? What is her family like, what are her interests? Does she have pets? Etc, you can ask for more “help” figuring this out without it sounding like push back.

        3. OhBehave*

          You’re not being confrontational here, you want to help. They aren’t helping much by vaguely saying they want more. Ask if they have something specific in mind; something the recipient would really love. As another said, continue as you are until they can give you some specifics. I would also critically look at what you are sending. Are you using the same thing repeatedly? I’ve made gift baskets for a neurology practice. I found a chocolate mold of a brain and had chocolate brains made to include in the basket. Weird but they were so thrilled that it was personalized to their profession.

    3. SoCalHR*

      What about personalized gifts? Like business card holders/leather portfolios with names on them or monogrammed pens, etc. Shari’s Berries are also nice but more in the same vein of what you’ve been doing. If you know the recipients on a more personal level then think about those things (sports teams, cooking supplies etc). Hope the helps :)

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I love nice pens that are comfortable to hold and write well. You could also look at the sherpa pen cover. It’s basically a metal pen in which you can insert a pen of your choice, and I know you can get them customized. I have one, and I find it really well balanced and comfortable to hold. Not a gift in itself, but could be easily included as part of a gift.

        Someone I used to work with would get food gifts around the holidays fairly often, and she’d always share them out among the staff. It was always a big hit. Especially the Harry and David Moose Munch – we’d practically fight over that stuff.

    4. Andy*

      There are some really great gifts on the amazon hand-made artisan style site. If you know ANYTHING about the person you should be able to find something that reflects an element of them and therefore be more personal. So for example get people to tell you if they mentioned a movie or book and include a funco pop figurine with the gift basket that reminds them of that and shows you were listening. Strap a Mindy Kaling Barbie to the bottle of wine if you know they’re taking their kid to see Wrinkle in Time. They like the Dodgers? Get a Didgers pennant and wrap the bottle of wine in it.
      Just think about who they are and reflect it back to them. Show them you care by showing them you were listening when they talk.

    5. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      For engagement/wedding/baby gifts I’ve had good luck Googling the person’s name, wedding/baby registry. I would just buy something off of that. You know they will love and appreciate the gift since they picked it out themselves and it is more personal than a gift basket.

    7. Anna Sun*

      One thing that’s very popular for my clients are tickets to the game of a favorite sports team or event, as well as concert tickets. Also, gift certificates to a well-regarded or favorite restaurant of the client.

    8. Lefty*

      At a previous employer, we had very positive feedback from more personalized gift sets but we still centered around food or fun themes.

      Here are some that I remember packaging: Coffee: 2 pounds (1 regular, 1 decaf) of locally ground coffee, a French press, company logo mugs, coffee flavored balms, coffee syrups. Movies: gift cards to a local cinema, gourmet popcorn seasonings, boxes of “movie” candy (even though I mentioned that one cannot take the candy into a theater!), all delivered in a fun logo popcorn bucket. Ball games: a guidebook to visiting our city, a few ballcaps for our local teams, tickets to a game (they sold generic tickets to use for any game at any time, a big $ saver for us), company logo seat cushions. Our president was also quite a personality, so sometimes we’d send a “Flat Stanley” version of him with the ball game with a note to “Send a picture of the President with you at the game and you’ll get a discount on a future order!” I’d imagine that now it could even be “tag us with #hashtag on social media to show us your photos from the game for a future discount”.

    9. AMT*

      Etsy is great for stuff like this. Tons of handmade (and often personalizable) gifts that you can’t get in a typical gift shop.

    10. Kate*

      For baby presents, my husband’s office sent over a gift basket from Elegant Baby. The quality and presentation were very good. We still use the blanket over two years later. If you can personalize it with the baby’s name, even better.

      If you know the person’s alma mater, a baby jersey is often a big hit. (I do jerseys for both boy and girl babies– not jerseys for boys and cheerleader outfits for girls.) Even if they’re not a huge sports fan, a baby in their school’s jersey is just really cute. Get size 3-6 months so the baby can grow into it.

      For engagements/weddings, a silver picture frame is always welcome. More personal, but still generic enough for a corporate gift.

    11. Student*

      I think knowing your audience is key here. Embrace your field.

      I’m in a nerdy, technical, sometimes mechanical field. Corporate swag people have bragged about getting:

      Branded tools that are field-specific. These don’t need to be expensive tools. Key-chain screwdrivers, small tools that make specific connectors easier to fasten/unfasten, key-chain tape measures, magnifying glasses, etc. Can’t go wrong with a pocket knife or a multi-tool (don’t give these if they have to travel through an airport after receiving them, though).

      Weirdo food items that aren’t a food basket. Corporate-branded hot sauce seems popular. Corporate-branded candy is borderline (keep it small please!). Embrace the silliness aspect. Might be able to do a colored food salt or other condiment.

      Shirts with interesting corporate logos on them, and/or field-specific jokes. People love these things. If you make it a work-acceptable shirt, maybe a polo, they’ll probably wear it to work and do some free advertising for you. Please, please consider size options and gender-specific clothing cuts – as a small nerd woman, I wish I could wear more of these but they’re largely XL-sized, male-cut tents on me. My husband’s shirt wardrobe is heavily biased toward corporate and conference swag shirts.

      Backpacks. They don’t have to be the greatest of material to get used for a year or two. Messenger bag is a good alternative – nice to take to the gym or carry a laptop through the airport. People love the heck out of these.

      Corporate-labeled umbrellas. Obviously take location into account. Got these at a conference once and they were a huge hit. Make sure they’re the smaller kind, for easy transport.

      Lanyards, corporate color and a discrete logo. Good for fields where people need to wear IDs.

      Please, please, though – no mugs. No hand towels. No kitchen utensils, unless it very directly relates to your field. Small is good, cheap is good, colorful is good, durable is good. Fragile is bad, large is bad, things nobody needs or everyone already has are bad. Things people burn through are good.

      1. Basia, also a Fed*

        Just be careful with the corporate branded items. I work for the federal government and can’t use any of these items where anyone can see me, for the very concern about advertising that Student mentions above. I’ve given away so many golf shirts, t-shirts, water bottles, etc.

        1. Random Thought*

          +1. I work in government procurement and can’t accept anything worth more than $5. Reading through these gift ideas makes me think I’m in the wrong field! =)

    12. Jennifer Thneed*

      Ask them for a suggestion and don’t let them get away with brushing you off. Ask them what feels good to *them* to receive as a gift. Ask them what “more thoughtful” looks like. None of this “If you think of something let me know” — follow them to their office and sit down with them.

      Also — why are they asking this? Have you asked them why they think the flowers/wine/food gifts are no longer acceptable? (Note: not asking here what *you* think. Asking what *they* think, and to find out, you’ll have to ask them. You might be surprised by what you hear.)

      Your coworkers are the ones who deal with the clients, right? Your job is supporting the co-worker in getting the gift to the client. Is making the decisions also your job? I suspect not. Do you have any kind of catalog of corporate gifts to look at, for ideas? Hand them over to the people who want changes. (If no, find the websites. So many websites.)

      Basically, don’t *let* them give you no guidance. “You can even be explicit: I don’t know what counts as “more thoughtful”, so they’ll keep getting Llama Arrangements until you give me another idea.” (To me, this is a lot like what happens in volunteer organizations: people have great ideas but expect other people to implement them. I’ve been in more than one group that put the kibosh on anyone making any suggestion unless they were willing to be in charge of the suggested thing.)

    13. Kuododi*

      Where I am we have two different companies which specialize in local artisan stoneware which can be personalized for an event or person themselves. (It’s extremely identifying…so if you want to contact me privately I’ll be happy to give you the information!!!)

    14. The Senior Wrangler*

      Does you’re region have any food specialities/anything it’s famous for? It may not be personal to the client but it’s a bit more interesting.

    15. Wolfram alpha*

      One of our prospective vendors sent us all yetis! It’s awesome. The yetis also have their logo on the side so I think about that vendor every day o drink from the cup.

    16. Seattle Writer Gal*

      Bean box! Fresh roasted coffee sampler box. Since I work in Seattle, we send these out all the time as a “taste of Home” to our national clients. You can do a $20 single box w/3-4 different sample bags from local roasters or monthly subscription. Bean box.com

  6. Savannnah*

    I’m moving to the west coast from NYC for my husband’s job and will be leaving my academic hospital job that I’ve had the last 4 years. My job is mostly hands on and I do a lot of teaching. My manager has known I’m leaving for 6 months now and my replacement and I will have 2 weeks overlap so I can at least point her in the right direction. My manager asked me if I would like to continue on as a contractor until I get a full time job in Portland and I’m very interested in pursuing this as the job market in Portland for my area is quite small and it could take me a year or so to find the right position. I’ve never been a contactor before and while we’ve talked about some of the work he wants from me, mostly manuscripts, curriculum and a policy overhaul we’ve talked about but never did, I’m not sure how much more to ask for in terms of an hourly rate (I’m at $45 right now, plus all the full time benefits) or if there are any other things I should note or ask about before signing on. I also am wondering if it’s appropriate to include in the contract a budget to travel to academic conferences- which my manager usually sees as investments in his employees. I currently have 2 workshops and 2 posters that have been accepted at conferences in May and June, although I wouldn’t be able to afford the cost of attending myself. I’m just unclear what to ask for although I feel like I’m in a good position because the new hire for my job is going to need a lot of training so I’m hoping I can negotiate the conferences.

      1. Savannnah*

        Right now no one else has the expertise to run the workshops so I’m hoping he will send me but its very odd to think of your academic work as your companies work product- even though I’ll keep it on my CV- so we’ll see.

    2. MLB*

      Contractors generally make a lot more than an FTE, so I would do some research for your area and position to try and get an idea of what to ask for in terms of an hourly rate. I know when I was a contractor a while back, I saw one of my “receipts” on someone’s desk and the company was paying double my hourly rate to the recruitment firm. I’m not sure about the conferences though – since you’re basically out the door and would only be helping out for a limited time, they may not want to invest the money because you’d be taking your knowledge elsewhere. Similar to companies that pay for your education – they will generally expect you to stay for a specific period of time or you’re responsible for the money they gave you for classes.

    3. Nearly a Fed*

      There are a number of calculators online (search 1099 to W2 salary) that can help you estimate how much you should be charging per hour to make the equivalent take home pay. You need to account for the costs of providing your own benefits (health insurance and any retirement contributions your employer provides) and paying the fully amount of employment taxes – employers usually pay half of the FICA tax (and there might be another employment tax I’m forgetting) but now you will be responsible for all of it. I switched from a W2 employee to a 1099 contractor due to a move also, and I accounted for everything I possibly could in calculating an hourly rate. I would also include not just travel to academic conferences, but any other travel they might request of you, e.g., back to hospital for meetings, events, etc.

      With some help from a good tax accountant (there are some really great things you can do with retirement savings when you’re self employed), the switch from W2 to 1099 was actually a big financial boost for me and helped me increase my overall salary when I came back as a W2 4 years later. Good luck!

      1. Savannnah*

        I’d love to hear more about the retirement savings accounts- I can’t get a good answer from my office about what to do them or just their status when I leave. I looked up FICA and its an additional 7.65% so i’ll add that to my new pay rate along with taking a look at these calculators.

        1. Natalie*

          If you have an retirement account sponsored by your workplace (like a 401K) that account moves with you. You can leave it in the account where it is, or roll it over to the fund manager of your choice. You should receive documentation from the administrator in the mail that walks you through your different options. (There’s a reasonable chance the people in your HR office don’t really know anything or are unsure, because most companies outsource all of the administration to an investment firm.)

          If you want to keep making contributions to the account you have to roll it into an IRA. If you roll it into another 401K account you will still keep all of your growth and can change your investment options and such, but you can no longer contribute to it.

          2. Nearly a Fed*

            Agree with this. I rolled mine out and have a financial planner that manages mine. As a 1099 contractor, I was considered self-employed and able to contribute to what’s called a SIMPLE IRA. I believe max contributions were based on gross income. I was able to contribute more than the max 401k limits and that helped relieve some of the tax burden. You really need an accountant to help with this stuff though.

        2. Hey Nonnie*

          The general rule of thumb I’ve read for figuring out your tax burden when self-employed is to figure that 30% of your gross income will go to income taxes. Remember that you’re not just paying the employer’s part of the tax (self-employment tax), but you will STILL be paying the employee’s part too, at whatever tax bracket you fall in. If you currently pay (for example) 15% of your AGI in income tax as a W2 employee, you will still need to pay that on top of self-employment tax as a 1099. It’s not just FICA, you pay the employer’s part of tax on all the standard withholdings, AND state/local income tax. 30% should adequately cover all of your income tax in most situations, and may be a little bit of overkill in some — although with the US tax changes who knows what business deductions will be allowed anymore, so anticipate you may have a higher taxable income next year. Also, don’t forget you will have to make quarterly estimated payments to the IRS and your state revenue department; there are penalties for owing too much when you file your tax return.

          As for business trips, I’d start with a conversation about expectations for those. If they say they want you to go, you can then explain that you would need those expenses covered by the client, and see if they’re willing to agree to that. It’s not unusual to expense business costs in this way as a contractor. You would just add it to your invoice on top of your hourly earnings, as a separate line-item. Or else the company makes the arrangements themselves and pays for them directly.

    4. Re-Searcher*

      The amount you charge will depend on your credentials and your previous job description, but I’ll share my own experience as someone new to this, too! I am at an Ivy-league academic hospital as doctoral-level junior research faculty and was told that my consultancy rates should start at around $150 per hour (or $1,200 per day) with the average consultancy rates of around $1,700, per university policy. I do healthcare programmatic/evaluation consulting, data collection analysis, presenting, training, report writing as part of my consultation gigs. I realize that this might seem a little steep (it did to me! But no one has batted an eye) given what was shared upthread, but might give you a ball park. I agree that it should be at least $70 per hour or more, given that they aren’t responsible for paying your fringe on top of that. Do you know any other consultants that do the kind of work you do for your organization, or could you ask around about consultants to contact? That would be helpful, and I’ve found that many people are willing to share that kind of information, given that I’ve been respectful and I’m just starting out. I’d be interested in what you decide!

      1. Savannnah*

        Thanks for your help on this! One of the challenges is that we are a small academic hospital and there are very few employees who transition to contractor and very few contractors hired by our hospital network (besides for construction projects etc) Currently no one else does the work I do at the hospital, employee or contractor, thus the need for me stay on after I move. I’ll probably start negotiations at 80$ and see where I get. My director doesn’t make more than $75 an hour and while *I* know there’s a difference, I’m not sure he’ll get that.

        1. Anony*

          Can you ask HR how much your benefits cost the company? I know that my company gives us that number which can help you to advocate for increasing your pay since you won’t have benefits.

        2. Nearly a Fed*

          I recommend going in with a breakdown of all of the expenses you will have to take on as a contractor. Since there isn’t a lot of experience with this, it is likely that they just don’t know and seeing the numbers could help them agree to what you’re asking for. I was lucky because my manager when I transitioned to a contractor was very diligent and cared about being fair, so he actually did all of the breakdowns for me. I was making roughly $44/hr with full health benefits and 7% retirement contributions. They gave me $75/hr when I first transitioned and then after I received my phD I bumped my rate to $90/hr.

  7. peachie*

    I found out yesterday that there’s a serious chance I’ll get a job offer in the near future! I did not expect this and am still in shock. The job is data science/analytics at an elite university and I did not think I even had a chance. My background is in theater and while the role I’ve been in for the past few years does involve some data work, my primary function is membership management and conference planning. I’m self-taught in data science/SQL and have no formal IT education or training. I’m both excited and terrified at the prospect of switching to a technical role.

    If I do get the job, it will also involve moving about five hours away from where I am. I wasn’t planning on moving (or even looking for a new job), so I’m overwhelmed at the thought of dealing with all the logistics of relocating.

    I’m also starting to feel panicky about leaving a city I really like to move to one I don’t know much about. As soon as it hit me that I might get an offer (and I will accept the offer; this is an unbelivable opportunity), I suddenly felt much more attached to Current City than I’ve ever felt before. I was (and am) sad at the thought of leaving and am questioning whether moving would be a mistake. Then again, I think I always get this way about moving, even moving within the same city; that feeling has never lasted. I don’t have any concrete attachment to Current City (I don’t have kids or family in the area, I don’t own property, and my partner is currently between jobs). I keep reminding myself that I wouldn’t be stuck in New City forever. I’d certainly want to put in a few years at the job, but if I still missed Current City, I could move back–and the job in New City would open many doors and allow me to work in pretty much any location I wanted.

    I’d love to hear any advice or thoughts from people who have made a switch like this. Particularly:

    1) Has anyone switched from non-IT to IT? What was that like? Did you do any formal training or education before switching, or was it all self-taught/on-the-job?

    2) For those who have relocated for a job–especially in cases where you weren’t planning on moving at all or weren’t aiming for the city you ended up in–what was that like? Did you feel the same kind of moving/Did I make a mistake? anxiety that I’m feeling? Did that feeling go away?

    1. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I moved across the country for a job this past summer. I also had that unexpected attachment to my old city once I knew I’d be moving, despite the fact that wanting to leave that city was part of what sparked my job search in the first place! I think it’s human nature to get a bit spooked by sudden, massive change.

      My advice is to make sure you’re vetting the area as much as the job itself. I work for a large university (though not in IT), and while I love the work I do and my immediate team, I’ve found that the massive bureaucracy and interpersonal politics make the culture here such that I really don’t fit in. I also didn’t know much about the area we’d be moving to – I knew the general size and had driven through town once, but I didn’t do enough to understand the culture and economy here. If I had, I never would have taken this job – it’s incredibly unwelcoming to newcomers, geographically isolated, and there is no career path for my partner here.

      All that to say: Do your research beforehand, make sure you visit in person, and try to keep your eyes open to both the good and bad of moving there. It’s normal to feel panic and the sudden sense of “am I making a huge mistake??”, so don’t read too much into those feelings. And, like you said, even if you ended up in a bad fit you’re not doomed to stay there forever – taking on a new challenge will (hopefully) set you up for greater strides in your career down the line. Even though I’ve been here less than a year, I’ve started to put out resumes and am getting a ton of responses, for amazing jobs I never would have been considered for a year ago.

      Good luck!

      1. peachie*

        Thank you for sharing what your experience was! I am afraid I’ll be disappointed by the area (based on nothing but anxiety), but for better or worse, I did just accept a job offer… The good thing is that it’s a moderate-sized city (I’m more of a city person), I’ve been to it before (though not extensively), and it’s in the northeast, which automatically makes it relatively close to a number of other cities. I’m just crossing my fingers real hard and hoping it all works out.

        I think you’re right that the fear-panic is probably coming from the idea of making a huge change when I wasn’t planning to rather than the details of that change. Mostly, I was totally, completely shocked that I got an offer. I wasn’t trying to waste anyone’s time by applying, but throughout the process, I just thought, I’m not the kind of person who can get a job like this in a place like that. Like, this is a place I wanted to go for my undergrad degree that I knew I could never get into, so this is truly mind-blowing.

        1. It's all Fun and Dev*

          Congratulations!! It’s always incredibly validating to get that offer when you thought you’d get laughed out of the interview :) My situation is pretty unique, mostly because I didn’t realize what a HUGE change it would be to move from a large west coast city to a tiny northeastern town… my bad. But, I learned a lot and now I have a much better idea of what I’m looking for (and what I’m NOT looking for) in my next job/town.

          You’re going to do amazing in your new role, and regardless of whether THIS is the perfect forever job, you’ll come out stronger and better on the other side. Good luck with your move!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I kind of did that, although it was an internal move. I started noticing issues with web pages and databases, and the one IT guy who could fix them (this was back in the 90s, he had built them all himself) was swamped, so I offered to take care of the easy stuff, like text corrections or minor updates to an existing web page, or correcting database entries. Eventually, I started figuring out how to do more, and when I didn’t know how to do something I’d ask that IT guy, which he was more than happy to do since once I knew how to do it he would never have to worry about doing it himself again!

      Even now that I’m what most would consider an IT professional, I work a lot with people who know more than I do, and most of them are happy to explain stuff, especially if it means they can spend their time on more complicated problems because I’m fixing the (for them) “simple” ones.

      I did take some web courses (more like structured YouTube tutorials, they were static presentations broken up into chapters that you could watch at your own pace) and attended conferences on our platform (and now my coworkers are encouraging me to present at those), but I didn’t really have any formal instructions.

      1. peachie*

        Yes, same here! I’m impatient and like figuring out how to do things myself if at all possible–I’m still the only person in my office who can write SQL and that’s entirely because I was frustrated with the very limited tools we had available.

        I’m sure I’m going to be working with people much, much smarter and more knowledgeable than me. I did get a sense from the interviews that it’s a small team and everyone is very supportive of one another and always happy to help when learning new skills. I do think I need that.

        I’m also doing those kinds of web courses–it’s helpful, though I really think I learn better actually doing things without being told how. I’m lucky in that my mother works in exactly this field; she helped me with setting up a database and has been giving me “assignments” of reports and I have to figure out how to do them. Doing that has made SUCH a difference in my skills and abilities, especially since I’d run up against the limit of what I could do with SQL at my current role about a year ago.

    3. ZSD*

      My husband switched from academia to something IT-adjacent – writing web content for a university site. His skills are mostly self-taught; once he got invited to interview, he checked out several books on web content writing from the library, and by the time he started, he was a near-expert in web content theory. He’s learned the more techy things on-the-job. I think he enjoys his current position.

      Yes, I think anxiety over moving to a new city is perfectly normal. The good news is that you have a partner coming with you, which will help a lot. The other thing I’ve always told myself when making big moves is, “You can always move back.” I hope this move works out well for you, but if after a year you decide you dislike your new city, well, then, you can move back. You’ll be out several thousand dollars for moving expenses, but that’s a comparatively small amount to invest in a risk that could lead to increased long-term happiness.

      1. peachie*

        Yes, I’m so glad to have my partner with me. We’ll get to figure out the new city together. And it does make me feel so much better to know that I’m not going to be stuck there forever if I don’t want to be. In fact, I think this job will open up a lot of possibilities, location- and job-wise, that I never would have had otherwise, and I’m grateful for that.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      For #2, I moved away from a city I loved and thought I’d live in forever to a city that I always thought of as “fine,” but not somewhere I’d want to live. As soon as I made the decision to move, I developed serious preemptive nostalgia and questioned my decision nonstop.

      So I made a list of all my favorite things to do, see, and eat in my current city and made sure to experience them all one last time (or for the first time), and then I made a list of cool/exciting things to do, see, and eat in my new city so that I could a) get excited about being there and b) quickly find reasons to love or reasons to be attached to New City. It worked for me!

      Good luck with the offer and eventual move!

      1. peachie*

        “Preemptive nostalgia”–that is the perfect way to put it! I get this like crazy. I remember feeling this way so strongly when I was moving from a truly shitty apartment to a beautiful, very-close-by house. It doesn’t always make any sense!

    5. Ainomiaka*

      For #2, I do think fear of change can make things seem scarier than they are. Like, you mention feeling attached to your city only after you think about this offer. I would really say think about how much is fear of change, how much is real.

      1. peachie*

        I think you’re right. I do think it’s mostly fear of change–which is odd, as I think I’m a very adaptive person and tend to handle change well.

    6. peachie*

      Update: I GOT THE JOB. Just got an email! Formal offer will probably be early next week, so I haven’t accepted yet, but… oh my god!

      4. peachie*

        Update update: Just got and accepted a formal offer. The offer was so much better than expected. I’m in shock.

        2. Jules the Third*

          And that right there is the impact of moving from non-IT to IT.

          The good thing is: In IT, they care what you can do, not how you learned it. Pick up the industry specific certifications if you can, make sure you identify and work on your gaps (I still struggle with SQL joins), but otherwise, just keep doing what you’re doing.

          1. peachie*

            I’m so glad to hear this. I know there’s a lot to learn but I’m excited to learn it. I’m going to be picking up a well-respected certification my first few weeks on the job, and I’m hoping those sorts of education-but-not-a-degree things will keep me up to speed.

          2. Liz*

            That’s right, HR tends to care more about certification than IT. IT folks just want to know if you can do it!

      8. nep*

        Wow — Congratulations. May you thrive in your new digs and new position. We’ll be looking forward to updates.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      I moved from secretary to Data Scientist. It started with a few reports here and there, then redesigning the database for more efficiency, then implementing a new reporting system, learning code, building web scrubbers…everything was self taught in the beginning, but then I started online programs at WGU to get BS and MS in the field. It was a good combination because I knew there were more data possibilities, but I didn’t have the network or formal knowledge to keep going, then the WGU program filled in the holes.

      1. peachie*

        This sounds so much like my path! I kinda just fell into it–mostly because I wanted to find more accurate/efficient ways to do things–and found that I really, really love that kind of stuff. I’m excited to move on to this, even though it’s very different from what I’ve done in the past.

    8. GriefBacon*

      I went from customer service and HR positions to database administration (with unexpected database development). I had absolutely no formal training — I lucked into my weirdly entry-level position because I was a great fit for the organization and my boss could tell I had the right instincts. So everything I know was learned on the job. I do wish I had some sort of technical education (I always joke about how I ended up working with numbers despite never taking math after high school…but seriously. I never even took statistics). If I stay in the field, I will likely look into an online certificate/grad program to supplement my certificates, just for my own piece of mind.

      1. peachie*

        Haha, I’ve been telling people who know about this job search, “If they hire me, it’s DEFINITELY going to be a ‘…but she has a great personality'” scenario. :)

    9. Dawn*

      For #2, my husband and I moved from Cool Smallish Town In The South to the DC suburbs with a little bit less than three week turn around time from the day he signed his job offer to the day we got keys to our rental. It was a whirlwind, and at first I really did not mesh with DC at all! It was too big, too many people, too much traffic, not enough nature!

      However, after a year or so of settling in we started exploring, and now 8 years later I LOVE living in the DC area and have no plans to move anytime soon. I always thought I would hate the “big city” and now I’m finding that I love it (except the traffic but oh well, what can you do?)

      1. peachie*

        Haha, my situation is going to be about the opposite. I’m not moving to a tiny or southern town, but I AM moving from DC. I really, really like it here, especially living in DC proper. I’m gonna miss it. :( But I think someday I might come back.

        1. Paige Turner*

          Good luck! I moved away from DC and I didn’t like it, but that was mostly because of job issues and the particular place that we moved to. We moved back and I don’t regret taking the opportunity to try something else because if I’d stayed, I would have kept wondering if would like it better elsewhere. I think the key is to know that you can always move back someday if you decide to, but that once you get to your new city, to start your “friend networking” right away. DC has a big culture of people being open to making new friends because people move in and out so often, and if your new city has relatively fewer transplants, you may have to make more of an effort to make friends (through hobby groups, through work, through friends of friends) than you’re used to.

    10. EnglishMajorinIT*

      I was an English/Creative Writing major in college and got hired to be a project coordinator for an IT consulting firm. It involved a massive amount of writing (I joke that I wrote the equivalent of 15 novels worth of meeting minutes in the first year alone), which is why they were interested in hiring me. I didn’t know anything about government contracting or IT, and learned everything on the job. I’m now a business requirements analyst for a major financial firm.

      If you’ve been able to teach yourself data science and SQL, you should probably be fine. If you didn’t mislead your interviewer about your background, they know what they’re getting into and will probably expect to train you on the job.

      Good luck!

      1. peachie*

        It’s so good to know that “creative” types can move successfully into these roles! I know that both people in my personal and professional life (and definitely interviewers) are really confused about how I got from A to B, but I do think that data science is a surprisingly creative field. It’s all just puzzles you have to solve, and puzzles are very creative!

    11. Specialk9*

      #2 – oh yeah totally. I have the ability to sail blithely through interviews, oh yeah of course I can do that, but as soon as it’s accepted, I PANIC.

      So here’s the thing – your brain sounds like it’s ok with the situation, it’s your feelings and change-averse lizard brain that’s not ok with it. So be gentle with yourself, talk it through with friends if that helps you, get exercise and stretch to reduce that clenched feeling in your stomach, and above all get sleep.

      I had to make a major move several times – most notably to another country that had a surprise requirement for $3k in savings in order to work there, and I was a broke recent grad.

      The most recent move was so good for me. People warned me about quirks of people in the city, and my experience has been so opposite. I also married someone I met here. :D

    12. TL -*

      on 2- yup. When I moved to Boston (in the middle of the winter and I implore you to try to time it otherwise if your prestigious university is located there) I cried every day for a week – it was dark and cold and weird and I didn’t like.

      But it grew on me and I’m seriously considering moving back there when I moved back to the States – I actually ended up really loving Boston about two years after I’d moved there.

    13. Windchime*

      I switched from non-IT to IT about 16 years ago. I wasn’t self-taught, though–I had a few programming classes from community college under my belt. The classes were all in C++, and I never used that language again once I started working. I learned all my SQL on the job and now it’s my favorite thing and what I’m the best at. Changing to my first IT job was really scary; everyone else seemed like “real” programmers and I was nervous and intimidated. But it all worked out OK and I’m still in IT.

      I also changed cities, but it wasn’t the same as what you are doing. I was employed in IT already and I moved to a different city, but I knew a lot of the people at my new job so I wasn’t coming in cold to a brand-new situation with people I didn’t know.

      Congratulations on your almost-certain new gig!

    14. Akcipitrokulo*

      I got into IT from non-IT as a subject matter expert. I found it was fairly easy, with mostly on the job learning from colleagues, but I have done courses since. They knew I wasn’t from IT background – that’s really OK because they want the skills you HAVE and can show you the rest as needed.

    15. Green Goose*

      About six months after undergrad I moved to South Korea to teach English. I knew I was going but the visa process was taking a really long time because I was waiting for my university to send my diploma, which took months. When my diploma arrived everything moved super quick and I was on a flight within a week or so and even though I was really excited, I was going on my own and I knew no one in the entire country and my emotions were really heightened for the three days leading up to it, and the first day or so that I was there.

      Every good thing (big or small – someone was nice a grocery store) that happened felt like a sign that I had made the right decision, and every small thing I had a much more intense reaction to. That first night when I was in a hotel I had a moment where I was like, “what did I do?!” But that definitely faded. I was really proactive, so I got involved with a lot of stuff outside of work and I kept myself busy. I looked up events that involved other people around my age who were also new to the city because other new people are more open to making friends.

      Good luck!

    16. Liz*

      Congratulations!

      Most of the people I know in IT were self-taught. (I’ve actually worked with a very talented software developer who also has a degree in theatre and runs his own theatre company on the side!) I worked unofficially in IT for about 5 years, then moved more officially over. I learned all my SQL on the job, also in higher ed. It’s only in the past couple of years that I’ve received “official” training in anything (including working on an online Data Science certificate).

      IME, that makes you a better prospect for them. You understand how users think, how they use (or expect to use) the programs that generate the data you’re looking at, and aren’t corralled by technical expertise that says “It must be done this way”. In short, I believe it makes you a more flexible candidate. Don’t doubt yourself!

  8. D.W.*

    How do I proceed?

    I wrote a month ago about making a career transition into Teapot recruitment. I have a potential opportunity to transfer to the Teapot Recruitment department at my current organization under the guidance of the Teapot Recruitment Director, as they are planning to hire for a new position.

    Before the Christmas holiday, the director gave me an advance copy of the job description (position has not been posted), and told me that they would speak to their boss, Fergus, to see if I was eligible to apply as I lack the required experience. The director said they would tell Fergus they are committed to training me and that they felt I might have a good shot because of my tenure with the organization.

    It’s been a month and due to Teapot Recruitment Director’s busy schedule, I have not heard from them as to what Fergus said about my eligibility, or even if they’ve had a chance to speak with Fergus.

    How and when do I breach this topic with Teapot Recruitment Director? I worry that it has fallen off of their radar due to their busy schedule, but I don’t want to seem overly eager — though I am.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just say/email, “I know you are busy but it has been a bit since we talked about Job. I wanted you to know I am still interested and if there is anything I can do to help my application along, I am most willing to work on that.”

      Or more simply,
      “I wanted to touch base with you to be sure you know I am still interested in Job. I know you are busy but I did not want us to totally lose sight of this conversation we had earlier. I thought I would check in to see where things are at.”

    2. Samata*

      I agree with @Not So NewReader. Just shoot a quick email saying you hadn’t heard anything in a while and wanted to be sure there was nothing else they needed on your end. A simple sentence won’t seem annoying, it is probably just not on everyone else’s mind as much as it is on yours is all!

  9. Future Analyst*

    Following up on my comment from last week: is there anything to be gained from letting a manager know that her intermittent micromanagement (answering emails I should be answering, being a bottleneck for long-term but urgent items, sometimes creating the sense that I should be running everything by her) is not necessary and/or not something I would want to continue working under? I’m a big believer in communicating your grievances with a spouse or partner before you decide on divorce/a breakup, and I can’t tell if this is similar. I’ve worked with her for over a year now, and I truly don’t know if she knows how she’s coming across and/or how she would take it if I gave her feedback.

    If the answer is yes, should it be a phone conversation (we work in different offices), or would email work? I get that tone can be tough to decipher in email, but I work in a cube farm and wouldn’t want others to hear me giving her the feedback.

  10. Anon here again*

    I’m new to my job (3 months) in a newly created position. I work with one other woman, “Joan.” Joan is twice my age and sort of the “office mother”. Joan is training me and while she isn’t my boss, she is senior to me. Joan is nice and we talk and get along for the most part- other times it seems like she doesn’t like me as much. She runs hot and cold, so it depends. She is also an instigator and likes to clown around.

    Other departments work well together or they seem too, but with Joan I feel like I am by myself. There was an issue with missing files on a shared drive and Joan told the director repeatedly that it wasn’t her. “It wasn’t me! I didn’t do it!” even though I was sitting right next to her. It wasn’t a “we” situation. Then they looked at me and said because I was new, I must have done it. I didn’t and they later caught the person who did do it, but it still feels like there is no trust.

    Any time I leave my area or am not by my desk, Joan comes over to talk to her friends. She will then leave when I come back to my desk. She literally runs away when she sees me. I don’t get it- no one else there does that. I don’t know if she/they are talking about me or she doesn’t want to be seen talking, but it’s annoying and obnoxious.

    I don’t need Joan to defend me or take the blame for me, but she always talks about “having each other’s back” and yet, I don’t think she follows what she preaches.

    She’s been by herself for 7 years, so I understand that she may be used to being alone and who knows? Maybe she doesn’t want me there, but I’m there.

    I just wish there was more camaraderie instead of clique-y, petty behavior.

    Is this a deal breaker for the job? Am I overreacting?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I wouldn’t say it’s a deal breaker for the job by any means. But I also wouldn’t accuse you of overreacting. It sucks to feel like you have to worry about someone throwing you under the bus if an issue comes up. The worst part of your letter to me is that the director at first seems to have gone along with Joan’s blaming you for the shared drive issue.

      I think all you can do is keep doing your best possible work and ignoring any petty behavior from Joan. You’re still pretty new to the job so it might take a little longer for you to find your “work-friend” group. Maybe look for opportunities to get to know the people in other departments better?

      1. Anony*

        It is one to those things that can be a deal breaker for one person but not for another. I would take a wait and see approach for now. The new person does tend to be blamed for new issues on things like a share drive because it is easy to make mistakes when you are unfamiliar with something so that might not happen again. If possible, wait until you have been there a year and re-evaluate. You might find that everything has worked out or you might decide to start looking for a new job.

    2. LKW*

      I wouldn’t consider it a deal breaker. Nonetheless, it sounds like she’s a bit threatened by you or she’s just immature. Even though a person may be 20 years older, they may behave like they are an insecure 13 year old.

      Don’t let it get you down and keep smiling and being really nice. When she runs away, just say “Talk to you later Joan” and then smile innocently at your co-workers.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      I think this is a situation where you just have to stay strong and be the best you that you can be and concentrate on high performance. You’ve only been there three months so you DO need to prove you’re trustworthy/good at your job still – even though you know you are! I have a feeling that once you have more of a track record, that will show, and you will have more credibility if/when issues come about. For now, just smile and be gracious and keep your head high.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Eh. Every time I’d see her scurrying back to her desk, I might say, “Joan, no need to run away on my account! You can visit with me, too.”

      IF, this is a big IF, I caught her talking about me then I would say, “Joan. Just tell me to my face. I want to do a good job. If I am doing something wrong, tell me. I will fix it. It’s not a big deal. There is no need to tell other people who cannot fix what I am doing wrong. Just tell me to my face.”
      I would only say this if I was 200% certain that I had caught her talking about me.

      While she is dark and shadowy, you can be light and open.

    5. fposte*

      Is it possible that you and Joan are just too in each other’s pockets? It sounds like there are other people at the workplace but the only one who really figures in your landscape is Joan. Can you find other people to hang out with and just let Joan be Joan without it mattering so much?

    6. BananaStand*

      Yea, that would be a deal breaker for me. It sucks and I’m going through it to. People literally never make eye contact with me when we’re talking as a group so I constantly feel like an interloper (amongst other issues). It sucks which is why I’m leaving. You spend 35+ hours with coworkers you should at least be able to tolerate them.

    7. Jules the Third*

      Co workers do not have to be your friends. It does help if they are reliable, dependable and professional.

      From your post, the only solid thing you have is that she got defensive when something went wrong. Well, now you know that’s a possibility – that means don’t tell her personal things, don’t trust her deeply, don’t expect her to ‘have your back’ and *don’t* *ever* let her pull you into covering for any mistakes she makes. Do differentiate yourself by handling any mistakes *you* make professionally: owning it, and suggesting fixes.

      The ‘leaving when you show up’ – maybe she’s worried you’ll think she’s not working. Maybe she’s allergic to your shampoo. Maybe she’s gossiping. You don’t know, you can’t know, and unless it directly affects your work, you have the option of *not caring*.

      Give it time, and don’t get invested in office personalities and politics.

      1. Specialk9*

        There’s totally a lady at work I avoid because I’m allergic to her perfume! I don’t think this is what’s happening here, but it is a great example of other explanations for behavior.

    8. JustShutUpAlready*

      I don’t think the situation is a deal breaker yet, but it is hurtful, and I completely understand where you’re coming from. I am definitely an outsider in my small office’s clique. The women decided early on I was not one of them, one reason being that I am older. Given that they are rude, unprofessional and spend more time engaged in loud chatter than doing their jobs, I don’t want to be part of that tribe, anyway. If Joan’s friends are anything like her, trust me: You don’t want to in their tribe, either. As other commenters have suggested – be professional and exceed expectations in your job. Be nice to Joan, but you don’t have to go out of your way. It is disappointing to have to put up with her behavior, which is likely borne out of jealousy. If her behavior gets truly out of line, start documenting (and not on the shared drive)! But give this job your best shot. Try to stay for at least six months, and at best, a year. Things will probably look much better for you after you have acquired more experience. Good luck!

  11. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I’m kind of reeling today.

    Found out that I’m getting a new manager. That part doesn’t bother me as it’s happened before. Except that it’s the 4th new manager I’ve had in a little over 5 years. Not to mention this is the 3rd management shakeup in less than a year. Two of which are well under six months.

    I asked a trusted coworker about this because I noticed him carrying out a lot of boxes (someone above me in the hierarchy, but who I do not even remotely report to). He’s always been honest with me so I figured he’d either tell me what was going on or tell me SOMETHING was going on but it was above my paygrade.

    Hoo boy. He told me. This was all handled so poorly. Something SMELLS. Two new positions were eliminated. A former employee is coming back and pushing my current (soon to be former) manager out. I know it’s all political, but it just feels so slimy and underhanded and wrong.

    1. Future Analyst*

      Sorry! :( Constantly changing managers is the worst, and that level of changeover feels very fragile.

        1. K.*

          I had 4 bosses in 3 years at a previous employer. It was awful. Boss 1 hired me and quit about six months after that for a better opportunity. Boss 2 was HIS boss, who served as our interim boss while they looked to replace him. Boss 3 was brought in and worked there for about a year and quit; she hated the company. Boss 4 became our boss after the first of two restructurings. The second resulted in our team being eliminated. Oh, and Boss 2 was fired during Boss 3’s tenure and there was no announcement – she just wasn’t there one day, and we had to hear about it through the rumor mill. It was such a mess.

    2. Observer*

      It sounds like you may want to start job searching. There seems to be a significant set of issues there that could easily have a bad impact on your job.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Yes and no.

        The environment could, but the shuffling of people won’t impact my position. I have a manager because I have to report to someone, but I am basically my own department. All of my managers thus far have made it perfectly clear they don’t understand what I do and have no interest in learning (I always offer to explain or show because I’ve no idea how you can effectively manage someone when you have NO IDEA what it is they do…). However, at every review, they make it blatantly obvious that they know what I do is important.

        Nevertheless, this whole thing squicks me out. I was planning on looking for a new job anyway. But this certainly helps.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          Just as a general thing, please document what you do so you’ll feel like you *can* leave. (Also, you could share it with a manager and say, “This is what I think my job entails — do you agree?”)

        2. Observer*

          What happens if someone decides that your position is not that important?

          What if you get stuck with a manager who doesn’t understand what you do, and therefore tries to impose inappropriate rules on you? That kind of thing happens all the time.

          But, what I was really getting at is that what you describe sounds like there may be fundamental problems that may have a negative impact on the company as a whole or the division that your work relates to.

    3. Emma*

      I had 5 different bosses in a span of about 3 years in my current job. The dust has finally settled and I’ve had the same boss-manager combo for almost two years now. My main word of caution is to make sure that you’re being fairly compensated along the way, should you decide to stay, and be prepared to leave if your managers are dragging their feet on that for whatever reason.

      I’m in a somewhat ridiculous situation at work right now where I might be getting a salary adjustment because a new person is getting hired to work alongside me and that person, who will be junior to me, will likely get paid more than I do now. I’m glad it’s going to be corrected but it’s frustrating because with each new manager I got at the time there was a lot of “well I don’t know enough about what you do” over and over again.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        The upside (?) the pay increases and all are handled out of our corporate office and are done separately from our reviews so I’m not overly concerned about that here.

        I’m mostly tired of them throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. We’re the biggest company in the industry. And we’re the biggest office…we should act like it.

  12. Jenny*

    Last summer I did an internship at a consulting firm. Towards the end of that internship (and around the time a lot of people in my graduating year were looking for full-time positions) a friend of mine who was interning at a rival firm was called in for an interview. Later on she told me that they didn’t really want to interview her for a job, but rather use it as a means of getting info on the rival.

    Am I right to think this was a really icky thing for them to do? Maybe it’s common practice among consulting firms (?) but it was one of the reasons I decided against applying for a full-time position there in the future.

    1. Jule*

      It wouldn’t be good, but I’d take your friend’s perspective with a grain of salt. It’s far more likely that they decided to ask questions while they had the chance than that they actually saw her resume, rubbed their hands together like evil villains, and plotted to bring her in just to mine her for information. Not great behavior from those individuals, but not necessarily indicative of a vile company-wide culture issue. And…it probably feels better for your friend to convince herself that not getting the job had nothing to do with her. But that would be a bad thing to base your decisions on.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        I wanted to say that too. Your friend’s explanation sounds unlikely and is the perspective of someone who didn’t get a job.

        1. I Didn’t Kill Kenny*

          I interned for Polaroid in the 80s. Got a 45 min lecture on NOT discussing anything Work related outside the office. Repetitive, repeated lecture. Sales numbers, film usage rates, you name it. Kodak was not their friend!

          Apparently corporate espionage was alive and well in the camera business!

    2. ContentWrangler*

      If that’s true, that’s definitely an “icky” thing to do. Particularly since it would be targeting someone new to the field just starting out who wouldn’t necessarily feel they could just shut down intrusive questions. But I will admit I’m curious as to what they asked. Asking for a certain amount of info about how you did your previous job is normal, and surely an intern couldn’t know that many trade secrets. So, I guess it comes down to how accurate you think your friend’s perspective of the experience is.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      What has your experience been like? If you already had doubts, then you should be comfortable with your decision not to apply there. If you loved your internship and would have otherwise applied, I see no reason why you shouldn’t have – your friends experience may or may not be accurate. I don’t know your friend, but it sounds like something someone would say if they didn’t get the job and were upset about it or trying to badmouth your company, for whatever person reasons she had to do that. Unless there are specific questions they asked that make it very obvious what they were trying to do, of course. Basically, your decision should be about your own experiences MAINLY, and then considering how credible you find your friend’s experience.

      1. Jenny*

        Nope definitely didn’t love that internship – it wasn’t terrible for the three months that it lasted, but wasn’t a place I’d like to stay long term. From the conversations I’d had with other people who were working there the place lacked forward planning strategy (so no one really had a clear career path), and you can easily get pigeonholed with very little opportunity to diversify skills etc. Very few people stay longer than a year (the longest serving person there had being there 2 years).

        So yeah…my friend’s comments were only a part of my decision, it probably wasn’t swaying that way anyway though.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ask your friend to elaborate on why she believes this. Listen carefully to the explanation.

      If she says, “Oh, it’s a hunch. Just my ESP working.” Then maybe there was an actual problem OR maybe NOT. There’s no way to nail that down.

      But if her explanation runs a little deeper, then, yeah, I would consider that incident in making a decision about applying. A little deeper explanation might sound like, they interviewed three other people who interned at Rival Co. also. An explanation like this would make me pause.

      1. Jenny*

        It was more that they didn’t ask about ~her~ experience/skills at all, but rather about the practices of the other company etc. Obviously I wasn’t there to hear the exact details, but it didn’t sound like a typical interview.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I can’t imagine that an intern level employee would have too much information that a rival company would want (or wouldn’t already know from better sources, if that is really what they are up to). So I imagine 2 scenarios: 1) they were asking mundane stuff about what she did in her previous experience and what sort of skills she picked up at her internship = totally normal interview questions, and she is interpreting that as “getting info on the rival”; or 2) they are asking questions to test if she is the type of employee who either readily gives out confidential information, or can be trusted to know and keep certain information confidential.

    6. Rilara*

      I doubt this was the case. The work you get as an intern is just not high level enough to provide any helpful information about another company’s secrets. Even if this was a non traditional internship for people who have been out of college for a while, temporary workers are just not given that much information about any company.

      Don’t listen to your friend in this. It definitely would be a messed up thing to do if it’s true, but neither of you are at a point in your career where this would be a smart tactic for a company to pursue to get their rival’s secrets. Don’t worry about it and don’t let it stop you from working at the company if you want.

    7. Thlayli*

      I used to work as a consultant and I’ve been on at least 2 interviews that I’m certain were just attempts to get info and they never had any interest in giving me the job. In fact I don’t believe there ever was a job. For one of those interviews, one of the guys who interviewed me, was interviewed at my company the following week and was keen to work on a particular bid, and I believe got my boss to discuss the bid with him. He never came to work for us and his team bid in for the same job and was directly competing with us for it. It definitely happens.

      1. Jenny*

        Interesting. I’m surprised that many people here gave the benefit of the doubt to the company, hopefully that means that even if it does happen it’s relatively rare.

        1. Millennial Lawyer*

          I think people are just giving benefit of the doubt based on the info you gave and not knowing your friend – it totally is possible though!

        2. Thlayli*

          To be fair, the other commenters have a point that the amount of info an intern would have wouldn’t really make that type of corporate espionage worth it. But I wasn’t particularly high up either – I think I was “senior engineeer” at that time (that’s only step 2 on the ladder – consultants are great for giving you titles it makes you sound good to clients haha).

    8. FTW*

      There is so much jumping between then big firms that there is not much intel to gain.

      It also shouldn’t have been clear what client the intern was working on during their summer. If there was, that was a mistake on the intern’s part.

      1. Thlayli*

        Why would that be a mistake? It’s normal to put the jobs and clients on your resume as a consultant. When I was a consultant I was required to add every job I worked on to my official resume for them to send out as part of bids, and in 6 years I think I had one job that was listed as “confidential client”. All the others were listed: project title, client, my role in project, brief description of work I did.

  13. Introverted Introvert*

    What is the etiquette in an open office environment regarding conversations? The people right next to me are really funny and since I sit so close, I often overhear their conversations. I sometimes laugh, but then they stop talking. I don’t want them to think I’m intruding, but it’s really some funny stuff. They have a very dry sense of humour and it’s very amusing.

    I’m a little shy, so is it considered rude/intrusive if I do laugh? Or should I try and not say anything? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    1. dr_silverware*

      I’d say either you join their conversation–make eye contact, contribute a bit, maybe even stand up–OR you pretend absolutely like you are hearing none of what they’re saying. It’s similar to living in a big city like New York–you can’t get physical privacy, since there are so many people around, but you can absolutely get social privacy by ignoring people who are having private conversations, by not staring at someone running to the store in their PJs, and by expecting everyone else will give you the same courtesy.

    2. Jady*

      Depends on the office culture. In my office, that’s totally normal and fine to do.

      If you don’t know these people and haven’t actually talked to them, that might strike a little odd. You should try interacting with them some, making friends, get involved in the conversation instead of just listening.

      This exact scenario could be an ice-breaker, though. If they look at you odd again, just say “Sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt, but you guys are so funny I can’t help myself!” And at that point if you can, comment on or contribute to the conversation. “I can’t believe someone would do that!”, for example.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      You can laugh if you overhear obviously, but the done thing in my experience is not to actually join the conversation (e.g. turning chair round, speaking) unless invited.

      1. Cajun2core*

        Ditto. I have been in this situation, and I have been written up for “joining in conversations in which I was not invited.” even though I was being helpful.

    4. MLB*

      Since you’re shy, you may be against this but when I used to work in a larger office with a cubicle farm, I always told people if they were speaking loud enough for me to hear them, I was going to provide my 2 cents or interject. There are ways for people to have a private conversation in a large office space, and if they’re annoyed that you giggle if you hear something funny that’s on them, not you.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      If you find yourself laughing, you can just “Sorry, not trying to listen in, but that last bit broke through my concentration.”

      I think the to do is to initiate some conversation with one or both of them (at a point when they are not talking to each other). That way you’ll be more likely to be able to join the conversations as they happen.

      You can also go with the direct approach if you are feeling weird about it and put it out there
      “Hey Bob, I got to feeling awkward the other day and thought I’d mention it… most of the time I’m in my own little world with my teapot spreadsheets, every once in while when I come up for air I actually notice that I’m in an office with people talking around me… Hopefully I don’t come across as a nosy nelly during those times… speaking of which… now that I realize it I meant to get a cup of coffee about an hour ago need anything while I’m in the kitchen” , says Introverted Introvert in a breezy manner.

    6. Cyclatrol*

      I think that the approaches described by Eye of Sauron are very strong. And, based on experience, it might be that one or more of the talking people are inwardly hoping to draw you into the conversation. I’d think of it as an opportunity: witty people who can speak well and who have a good sense of humor are the people I would want to get to know better anyhow.

      In the unlikely event that the ‘talkers’ come back with something unfriendly like “That was a private conversation”, you may or may not wish to remind them that no, it isn’t private, not if they’re in an open office and speaking loudly enough to be overheard. And no, you are under no obligation to don headphones whenever you hear a “private conversation”. But I’m just being a pessimist: I’ll bet they’ll be a-okay with you.

      I despise open offices, though. I used to sit 10ft away from an ‘meeting space’ that had no doors, just divider panels that didn’t reach the ceiling. Posting signs about “Please be quiet” didn’t work. Some spirited conversations hit 70dB (I had a sound pressure meter I brought in from home; you can buy one for $20 at Amazon).

      I wouldn’t recommend this to anyone, but I eventually learned to have fun with it. For instance, someone in the meeting would say “so you heard about the upcoming layoffs in [redacted]?” and someone else would respond “yeah, I hear they’re scheduled for [redacted]” and so on and so forth. When the meeting was breaking up, I’d pop my head in and say “so – layoffs coming soon in [redacted], huh?”

  14. Princess Daisy*

    Good jobs for people with traveling spouses?

    My husband is considering being a traveling PA in a few month upon graduating. He would make a good income, but I still want to contribute. What jobs can I work remotely?

    1. Anita-ita*

      There are tons of remote work websites that list a variety of them under different areas of work (marketing, tech, support, etc.). Also finding a company that you know has virtual positions. I know Medtronic (medical devices) and JLL (brokerage) offer them. Also glassdoor.com and indeed.com have options to search remote jobs. It takes a lot of searching but just google around and search the job sites and you’ll find a lot.

    2. LAI*

      What field are you in? My friend does online customer support for a big educational company, and works from home. She can do her job from anywhere with an internet connection.

      1. Princess Daisy*

        My degree is in finance/accounting. I’ve done AP/AR and customer service in the past, but am currently in a sales support role.

        1. Natalie*

          I have no idea what the requirements are or even if they are remote jobs, but I believe a lot of the cloud accounting stuff has some accounting professionals on staff for customer service. There’s the tax ones (H&R Block, TurboTax, etc) and bookkeeping software (Quickbooks, Freshbooks, etc). Might be worth looking into.

      2. Librarian-ish*

        Sorry to butt in on this conversation but do you know if this is education like K-12 or university level? I’d love to have a job where I can work remotely but I only have experience in college level education.

        1. Ree*

          If you’ve worked in higher ed, check out Western Governors University – WGU
          They have offices in Salt Lake City, but most of their teachers and student mentors work remotely. Generally they want Masters or Doctorate degrees, but they have 30+ job listings last I checked.
          This coming from a WGU student :)

    3. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I don’t have any ideas but I’m curious what other people suggest. How much is he traveling, and do you want to work remotely to be able to travel with him, or to be able to work from home and not go into an office (for childcare reasons, for example)?

      1. Princess Daisy*

        Ideally, I would be travelling with him. As a traveling PA, he would be able to pick and choose different assignments in different cities, anywhere from a few days to a few months (for example, filling in for a PA on maternity leave). For that reason, I wouldn’t really have the ability to work in an office, since we wouldn’t be in any one place for more than a few months. So, any sort of paid work I could do from my laptop no matter where I’m at would be preferred.

  15. Namast'ay in Bed*

    I started a new job this week and it’s going great! I’m a contractor to start with the chance to go permanent. It works a bit differently than how normal contractors go – I’m salaried and there is no set end date, you just act as a normal employee until at some point that they decide they do or don’t want you, which could maybe fall in the 4-8 weeks range. I’ll try and suss out more information from others who went through this (it’s how a lot of people started here), but for the moment I’m going to sit back, work hard, and enjoy how awesome it feels to go from the insanity of agency life to the relative laid-backness that is inhouse.
    My real question is this: would it be weird to bring in some personal items for my desk? Nothing too crazy, just some small things like my own mug or a pretty pen cup, a calendar or pictures of my dog/loved ones. This all falls well within how others decorate, I just wasn’t sure if it was weird since I’m not a permanent employee. I don’t want to appear naive about the current non-permanence of my role, but I also would enjoy some small personal touches while I’m here, even if it ends up only being for a month or two.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I don’t think it’s weird to bring in your own mug and a few other things – I wouldn’t settle in too much, but a few personal items should be fine. I was a contractor for awhile, and after a week or so I started bringing in a few small things like a mug.

  16. Susan K*

    I’ve been assigned as the team lead on a project for the first time. It’s exciting but also kind of overwhelming! I’ve never even been involved in a project like this, let alone run one from the ground up, and I feel like I may be in over my head. I have a general goal, a budget, and a soft due date ~8 months from now (but my manager said that can be extended if necessary). The project involves using technology to improve efficiency and reduce costs associated with paperwork and recordkeeping.

    I am picking my own team, but I don’t even know how many people should be on the team (I’m thinking probably three or four). I have a feeling that not many people will be jumping at the opportunity to join my team because it will just mean more work for them. Would I be better off deciding who I want on the team and approaching them individually, or sending out an e-mail to everyone asking who is interested? There are some people in the department who are more desirable as team members, but I’d really like to have people who are interested and want to be there.

    Also, can anybody recommend any good resources for organizing a project like this? I have a general idea of what to do and maybe I could muddle through it on my own, but I haven’t had any training on leading a team and I would feel better if I could refer to some kind of step-by-step guide. And I would be grateful for any other advice on running a project. I think this project could make or break my career, so the stakes are high for me.

    1. DCompliance*

      Have you ever heard of the MOCHA model for project management? It may give you a baseline to start assigning roles.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Don’t send out an e-mail asking who is interested. You should be deciding what resources you need and acquiring those resources. If you don’t know what resources you need, you should make figuring out what you need your first task.

      Also, if the project is implementing a specific commercial product or system, the salespeople who sold you the product would likely be good resources for giving you a rundown on what to expect during implementation.

      1. Susan K*

        Thanks for the advice… My department is comprised of teapot makers and teapot designers, and the project will affect the teapot makers more. I am a teapot maker and know very little about the teapot designers’ role in paperwork and recordkeeping, so I know I need at least one teapot designer, and probably two other teapot makers. Among each group (makers and designers) skillsets are pretty similar, so there’s not really one specific person who will fill the need. There is one teapot maker who was at the top of my list because she’s a top performer, smart and hardworking, and when I asked if she was interested her answer was literally, “I don’t care.” That was disappointing because she was my best hope and she seems ambivalent at best, so I started to think I might be better off with someone who is not as strong a performer but more interested and enthusiastic about the project, but I’m not sure who would be.

        The project does involve a specific product, and part of the reason I am team lead for this is because I am the department expert on this product. I’ve had a lot of training on it and already done a lot of work with it that will be relevant to this project, but this product itself does not have everything we need, so part of the project is finding other product(s) that we can use for the things the first product can’t handle.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          It sounds like you need to get political buy-in. Can you go to the Makers’ manager and ask who makes sense for the role on your team? You gotta come correct, though. Know how much time it will take, have deadlines set, and know what specific skills or inputs you need.

          I’ll second what Eye of Sauron is saying below. All good advice. You have a budget already, which is good. Does that budget allow for ear-marking some of the funds for your own training?

          1. Susan K*

            No, the department has a separate budget for training, and I suspect my manager won’t go for sending me to project management training. I have already had a lot of training on software that is a big part of this project, and I am pretty sure my manager thinks I should be capable of tackling this project without any additional training. Although it seems like a big project to me, it’s small potatoes compared to most projects at this company.

            I also want to limit myself in how much I ask management for help, because I don’t want to seem as though I need my hand held, so I want to save my questions for when I really need them. They want me to form my own team, so I think, at the very least, I should have a tentative list of who I want for my team before I ask.

    3. Eye of Sauron*

      Any chance you can get into a project management basics training class (I’m not suggesting a full PMP certification, but you should be able to find an Intro or basics class? This sounds like a pretty big project to cut your teeth on right out of the gate. I’d also be looking on amazon for books to read to give you a framework for your project.

      But to get you started here’s what I would do:
      >Find a project plan template and start filling it out. It will give you an idea of where and how to start. Think of your plan as someone sitting across a table from you asking questions. You will not have all the answers when you first sit down with it, so don’t worry if you have to start with “To Be Determined” It walks you through, scope, team, communication, implementation, and other basic functions of the plan. It can be as in depth or superficial as you need it to be. If I were you I’d start high level and add detail as you go. You should start out by answering the question “What is the problem this project is going to solve?” To really answer this question, you will need to do the next suggestion.

      > You should also be ‘interviewing’ the sponsors of your project. The sponsors will have the vision (hopefully) that they would like to see. Right now your scope is huge… speaking with your sponsors will help you figure out where to focus your efforts. Maybe it’s accounting that is the biggest pain point, or customer service. Basically you need to find the person or people that authorized this project and find out what they have in mind. Then you can start to drill down to find out who should be on your team.

      >As for establishing a team, I like the RACI model. You look around your organization and answer the question, “Does this role/function have Responsibility, are they Accountable, should they be Consulted, or just Informed” Generally speaking anyone in the Responsible category will be on your team.

      In other words, you have some homework to do before you pull together a team. Start with some discovery first and what you learn will help you identify the resources you need.

      1. Susan K*

        Thanks for the advice… I can look into a project management class, but I don’t think that’s going to be a possibility. Do you recommend any specific books, or a good project plan template?

        I do have a pretty good idea of the vision for the project, and a big part of it is something I’ve already been working on, just not as an official project, so I am not starting completely from scratch here. My manager (the sponsor of the project) has given me a pretty good idea of what he has in mind, although he is kind of disorganized and just throws out random thoughts as they come to him rather than giving me any kind of organized list.

        1. Witty Nickname*

          My advice is to start big and then break things down. What are your project objectives? What are the main deliverables you need to meet those objectives? How are you going to complete those deliverables?

          I build a table in word or powerpoint for this – I find it’s easy to modify and accessible to my stakeholders as I review the project scope with them. I have a column for strategic objectives, then one for key deliverables, and 3 for tasks. (I use a modified version of PMI’s program definition template, but I’m not seeing it in a google search. You could also search for a work breakdown structure template).

          Make sure you interview your stakeholders too – find out what objectives they have, what do they expect to be able to do once this project is complete, is there any specific functionality they expect to have, etc. All of these things should fit into your template somewhere.

          The rule of thumb for the table is as you move to the right, you have at least 2 rows connecting to each row to the left. So if you have a strategic objective, you must have at least 2 key deliverables that connect to it, and at least 2 tasks that connect to each deliverable, etc. You can have more than 2 rows, but you must have at least 2. I use 3 tasks columns so I can break tasks down into their specific actions/components, but you can use more or fewer if needed (once I get to the point where I can’t break a task down into at least 2 things anymore, I stop. There’s no rule that says you have to use all three columns. You should use at least 1 task column though).

          Once you’ve arranged everything, go through your template from left to right and ask yourself “how” after each column. (for example, if your strategic objective is “increase revenue for Chocolate Teapots Inc. by 20% in the next 4 years,” one key deliverable could be “set up a tea of the month club”, with a task of “build member website” which has a task of “design member dashboard.”) Then go back through the template from right to left, asking “why” after each column (e.g., “Design member dashboard. Why? To Build a member website. Why? So we can set up the tea of the month club. Why? To increase the revenue…”).

          Move things around if you need to. Add in anything you think is missing (the “how” and “why” questions really help with this part). Once you are done, you’ve got your project scope and a lot of your requirements. You can identify the skills you will need on your project team so you can get project resources.

          Does your company like to use a specific project management methodology or framework (waterfall/PMP, Scrum, etc)? If not, maybe read a bit about the different approaches to decide what you think will work better for your/your team. I was a PMP who worked exclusively on the creative side then got thrown into a technical PM role in a Scrum environment when my company was acquired last year, so I’ve been working on learning as much as I can. I took an online class on Scrum that gave a decent overview of it, and then read the scrum guide on scrum.org, took a bunch of practice exams on other sites (the open assessment on scrum.org does not prepare you for their exam – the assessments on mplaza were the ones that ended up being the most helpful, but they aren’t free) and then paid to take the PSM exam. (You don’t have to take the exam, but the practice exams were really helpful for me in understanding how Scrum works. I took the exam because there have been a lot of layoffs due to the acquisition. The PSM is not as well-known as the CSM certification, but it’s at least something for my resume, and I didn’t have to take a $1000 in-person class to get it).

          1. Susan K*

            Thanks — that’s very helpful! As far as I know, my company doesn’t use a specific project management methodology, or at least, if they do, they don’t expect it for this project.

  17. Marsha marsha marsha*

    I’m new to the job and to office culture, but is it always so catty? People seem to be overly concerned with how others are and if someone is upset or angry. At my office, they are overly observant and if you aren’t smiling or look happy, they think something is wrong. I have the type of face that always looks like I’m scowling or upset, but it’s just my face! I know that this is a general reaction, but these folks seem overly sensitive/observant about things.

    They can be social and funny too, but it just seems like they fret over the little things too much. I wish the concentration was more on the work and less on the petty stuff. Any thoughts?

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      No, office workers are not always so catty.

      This is an impossible one to answer. People are people. Sometimes one or two people can influence office culture. Sometimes its the whole group. Sounds like your office doesn’t have a great dynamic. The one thing I might recommend is come up with something quick to say when they comments on your facial expressions and keep saying it. Maybe it could train people that you just always have RBF.

      1. fposte*

        I really like your point that sometimes this is in reaction to one person; I think that happens a lot more than people realize.

      2. nonegiven*

        Practice an angry scowl in the mirror, make sure it looks obviously worse than your RBF.

        “You don’t like my face? Why would you need to tell me that? Wow!”

        Turn back to work, relax face.

    3. Natalie*

      I usually have this same problem when I’m new someplace and my personal preference is to be super nonchalant and cheerful about it. I don’t come out and say it, but my internal attitude is “you are the one being weird about this, but don’t worry, you’ll get over it.”

    4. Millennial Lawyer*

      Every office culture is different. I work in an office where everyone is very professional and kind and helpful. I used to work in an office that was full of miserable people yelling all the time.

    5. Lissa*

      I had this problem when I worked in restaurant/food service, to be honest! Everyone was constantly talking about how they hate “drama”, but assuming other people were upset and storming around based off assumptions. It seriously drove me batty especially because the main participants in this never seemed to realize it, and would blame everyone else.

    7. YarnOwl*

      In my experience, there are usually at least some people like this in every office, but depending on the overall office culture they may or may not have an effect on how everyone else feels and acts.

      I work in an office with a couple of people who are like this, but because overall it’s a very professional and kind office, that kind of behavior is mostly ignored by everyone else. So it all depends!

    8. Specialk9*

      I make a habit of always having my Game Face on in the hallways and public areas at work. Going to the bathroom, lunch, to a meeting? Game Face.

      That involves standing straight (imagine pulling a string on top your head, until everything is tall and in line), walking confidently and a touch briskly, and putting on a very small smile and warming my eyes slightly.

      Ironically, it’s a variation on my outdoors ‘don’t get mugged’ face (stand tall, look alert, walk confidently – I grew up in a dangerous city).

      It takes a bit to practice, and then is second nature. The great thing is that our bodies react massively to smiles and frowns – putting on a small smile is a powerful way to feel happier. So it’s an outward facing move that changes your inside. Powerful.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      It just varies with the culture & people of that particular workplace.
      I would say no, it’s NOT the norm in general, but given the regular posts on this blog, it does seem to happen frequently at a lot of workplaces.
      As far as your particular workplace and people fretting over whether or not people ‘look happy’ I’d say that’s an annoying one, but fairly benign one. If someone comments on it, I’d just be inclined to jokingly say: “Yes, this just so happens to be my resting bitch face, even thought I’m not at all unhappy or upset about anything.” and maybe follow up with, “You know a surprising large number of people also have resting bitch faces when they’re concentrating on their work, so perhaps you’re fretting over this study of resting bitch faces a little too much?”
      But I’m a bit of a snark.

  18. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Recruiters/Talent Acquisition/People who do hiring

    Give me some suggestions on great ways to attract talent that I might be missing! With the unemployment rate so low, there are less people looking and it’s getting harder to fill positions.

    1. artgirl*

      Make sure postings have an actual number listed for salary, rather than “competitive” or “aligned with market” so that people know you mean it when you use those adjectives. I think not knowing a real number can kind of increase the activation energy for any particular job application.

      1. GriefBacon*

        Additionally, if your salaries are on the lower side (or even just not on the higher side) for your area but you offer benefits that can make the salaries more palatable — be it cheap health insurance, flexible schedules, great holidays/PTO, tuition/professional development benefits, pet-friendly office, etc, etc — make sure you’re mentioning those in job postings!

    2. Natalie*

      Most employers seem to think of this as a last resort, but raising salaries and/or benefits is a pretty direct option.

      And if appropriate, really examine the job requirements you have to see if they are actually “need to have” or “nice to have”. Sometimes managers get a bit stuck on having a specific degree, even for a mid-career professional, or years of experience with a specific piece of software when most people will get comfortable with new software quickly, or even criminal records when they’re not actually relevant to the job or were a long time ago. [Only a little bit relevant, NYT had a feature last weekend on employers in Wisconsin that have started hiring people that are still imprisoned. Not through a BS prison-labor program where they make a quarter or whatever, but at real wages and with the option to get a job at the same employer after they get out. It was neat.]

      2. Specialk9*

        A side jink on that topic, I now exclusively buy Dave’s Killer Bread, bc it’s healthy and gives people with criminal records jobs that don’t force them deeper into crime.

        1. Windchime*

          Yes, this and it’s amazingly delicious bread. I bought a loaf of something else the other day and it tasted like sawdust in comparison.

        2. Chaordic One*

          And most of Dave’s Killer Bread products do NOT contain soy!

          One of the few breads that do not and a big plus for those of us with food allergies to soy.

    3. weathersprite*

      +1000 for adding salary info

      If there is anything remotely arduous about your application process (e.g.: you need an account in our system! or rebuild your entire resume in our specialized application!) see if you can find another way to do it. I’m much more likely to apply for a job if I can easily just send in a cover letter and resume.

      Also: if you know any people who are working in a similar position, ask them what they think of the vacancy you are posting. What about it looks appealing/unappealing?

      1. Leela*

        oh HUGE yes to making your application process easier. Nothing turns off a candidate like turning in their resume, then basically having to re-enter their resume by hand, item by item, in a specialized system. I don’t doubt that it makes recruiting worlds easier (and as someone who did recruiting, it does), but if your candidates have options at all they’ll pass on this unless your company is wildly competitive. Amazon, Microsoft, etc, can get away with application processes like that because people will want to work their for the wages, prestige, resume boosting, whatever. A lesser-known place with nothing selling it automatically is wiping themselves off of the radar for strong candidates who don’t need to put up with it.

    4. Leela*

      Question about how you’re reaching out to people! I used to work in hiring and my manager would always insist that I send out the vaguest of vague e-mails like “hot coding job in YOUR AREA! contact me to hear more!” despite my constant protests that at best I’ll hear nothing back from anyone unless they’re desperate (meaning the hiring manager probably won’t touch them) or I get very snarky e-mails back from candidates about what a terrible recruiter I am and this is why everyone hates recruiters.

      When you reach out to people, does it sound like a canned e-mail? Even if it’s not, does it read that way? As a recruiter working in a tech hotbed, I also got loads of e-mails from people trying to hire me as the bigger local companies were constantly looking for recruiters. I never responded to e-mails like this, it takes interest for me to put in the work to respond, and if I have nothing in the e-mail to interest me, it’s not going to happen.

      The salary advice I’m a little torn on, depending on whether you’re recruiting in-house or for an agency. As much as I understand and agree that salary information is a huge determining factor in whether I’d care about a job or not, and that it feels like you’re getting inappropriately baited when you don’t have that as a candidate, it can cause a lot of problems. For one, in my experience at an agency, a job doesn’t “pay” anything. They have a ridiculously broad range (like 80-130K) sometimes, and … how do you post that? If you post it as is, it looks like that company doesn’t have their stuff together at all. Or they’ll ONLY see 130K and feel super super cheated when they’re offered 85K because they “could have” gotten 130 but they never would have because that number basically exists as something you can use if you find someone very overqualified but they’re the best candidate out of the pool. You can also run into a lot of problems (as I did, often) by say, a job needing a C++ developer with about 5 years of experience. So I find someone with 5 years of dev experience, they list C++ on their resume. I call them, they tell me that they’ve been a C++ dev for 5 years, all sounds good, I discuss salary with them and set up an interview. Then it turns out that they sort of did a LITTLE C++ at their job for over 5 years, but they’re really not at the needed level but could get there so they get a lower offer and suddenly I’m a liar who purposely told them the wrong salary just to get them in (???).

      Or I recruiter two people to work admin at a local tech company, same role with multiple openings. One was far more qualified than the other, so she paid more by us. When the two discussed salary, I get a a furious call from the other one that I’d lowballed her and pocketed the money because the job “paid” more than I said. There was no extra money to pocket; the company didn’t pay the agency the same amount for both of them because again, one was FAR. MORE. QUALIFIED.

      1. It's all Fun and Dev*

        As a candidate, I hate the broad range too – I think my current job posted a range of like 43k-78k, and I got brought in at 44k. Obviously they have a range in mind of where they’ll start a new employee, why can’t they just post that?

        1. Anony*

          As a candidate I would prefer to see the range for the average candidate who fits the requirements posted. Then you could add that a higher salary is available for candidates with XYZ additional expertise or education.

    5. Clever Name*

      List a salary range for posting (and make it actually competitive!). If you have an unusual benefit that would impact someone’s finances, list it. For example, my company pays 100% of the employee insurance premium. You read that right. The company pays for it all, and it’s worth at least $3000 annually.

    6. Thlayli*

      Make it easy to apply! Post a salary range and if the salary is dependant on experience give an idea of where in the range someone with x experience would lie. Make it clear what the job is and how many hours a week, and if there’s travel. List benefits. In short, make it easy to figure out if applying is worth their time, and make it easy to apply.
      And the most obvious one of all – pay well and offer good benefits, and good cabdidates will apply.

      1. Thlayli*

        And as someone else said upthread, make it clear which experience is a deal breaker and which is a nice to have. Particularly important for attracting women, as most women apparently will not apply unless they meet all the requirements in the ad, whereas most men will apply if they only meet some of the requirements.

    7. Kate*

      Do you mind sharing the field or what types of jobs you’re looking to fill? I have plenty of ideas, but they’re going to vary wildly depending on what you’re hiring for.

    8. EA in CA*

      We found that adding bits about our culture, what it was like working at our offices, some of the events we do and listing out many of the perks and benefits that are included got more qualified applicants than using our previous method. We also utilized networking functions at local colleges and universities to get our company’s name out to prospective new graduates. We are big on promoting internally as much as we can, so many of our open positions are prefect for new or newer to the field applicants.

    9. Jennifer Thneed*

      If you can, try applying at your company for something, just to see what the outsider’s experience is like. You might be surprised — it might be really offputting.

      (My personal un-faves: (1) systems that take in my resume and then (wrongly) parse everything into their fields, and then graciously allow me to fix it all; (2) systems that expect me to retype all the info that my resume has into their fields.)

    10. sometimeswhy*

      Reach out to alumni associations and/or professional fraternities at nearby universities with programs applicable to the positions you’re recruiting for.

      I stumbled into that strategy after I realized that several positions in a row had a LOT of applicants from the same specialized degree program at the same university. Someone with a connection to my org was independently forwarding our recruitments around their listserv. We ended up with some really great candidates (and hires) from those and now I’m looking for more from other universities to reach out to.

  19. Miki*

    How do you feel about advice saying you should hand-write your resume/cover letter to show that you’re /really/ invested in a certain role? (i.e. send the original copy of your hand-written document, not a photocopy of your resume).

    On the one hand…sure you can be sure it’s not from a mass-send sort of exercise, but on the other…it really doesn’t add much value to what the candidate is trying to communicate with regard to their skills or experience etc. (Unless I guess if penmanship is a really important part of the job.)

    2. NJ Anon*

      I honestly have never heard this. As a hiring manager, it would come off really strange and would keep me from considering the applicant.

    3. Aunt Vixen*

      In the United States? Don’t do it.

      I vaguely remember being taught that in – the UK? France? Europe in general? I said my memory was vague – business correspondence was better handwritten than typed, which is counterintuitive to Americans, but that was a long time ago and may no longer be true (if it ever was). In the US it is not. Don’t do it. :-)

      1. PX*

        In (Western) Europe, can confirm this is not true at any place I’ve ever lived in or worked, I’ve also never heard of it!

      3. SarahKay*

        I *think* it was true in the UK about 30 years ago. I have vague memories of my Mum hand-writing an application form in her best writing. But that was before computers were wide-spread and many people wouldn’t have had access to a type-writer at home.
        Now – NO, don’t do it!

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yeah, I think this would come off as unpolished and weird. This falls under the heading of ‘gimmick’ — and remember that really wanting the job is a whole lot less important than actually being good at the job.

    9. Susan K*

      Nooooo! This would come across as really weird and probably get your resume thrown in the trash. It would make them wonder if you don’t know how to use a computer or something. It would also be a real inconvenience to the company, because most places want electronic versions of these things.

      2. Natalie*

        And such a waste of time! You could probably write three cover letters in the time it takes you to handwrite your resume.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Nearly choked on my coffee with that one. Now I’m picturing shrines to the God of Gumption, jobseekers leaving copies of their resume and lighting votives.

    12. Observer*

      Hard no!

      Do any of the people who give this advice actually have jobs that they had to apply to in this century? Or even in the last quarter of the last century!

      This is the kind of thing that WILL get your resume put into the rejects pile, no matter how good you otherwise look on paper. At *BEST* it is inconvenient for the prospective employer and does NOTHING to indicate your enthusiasm or eagerness for the job.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I honestly don’t think they know a damn thing about – or care about – people getting jobs. I think they’re generally freelancers trying to sell articles, and they figure the way to do that is to Stand Out, no matter if it makes them look ludicrous to anyone who actually knows how job searching works.

    15. Jadelyn*

      Oh…my…no. No, I would Not Recommend that. That’s some either extremely gimmicky or extremely old-fashioned advice. Or both. It’ll make it harder to process – I don’t care how good your penmanship is, it’s still less simple to read scans of handwritten text than it is to just read text typed on the damn computer in the first place – and it’ll stick out in a weird/bad way.

    16. Porygon-Z*

      Sounds super gimmicky to me, so I wouldn’t put any stock in it, at least if you want to be hired by a reasonable employer. I’m trying to envision what a handwritten resume I wrote would look like and my mental image isn’t pretty.

    17. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      PLEASE don’t do this. Your resume will be word docs or pdf, and printed on normal printer paper when needed. If you do anything else, you’re going to get your application tossed. Whoever gave you that advice should not be listened to, ever.

    18. Laura H*

      Only thing I can see this being very loosely practical for is DRAFTING the documents. I find comfort in working from something I’ve handwritten for my non work hobby, as sometimes it gives a chance to catch mistakes and reword things- but even with that loosely practical purpose, it’s a step you really don’t need to add…plus having the stuff automatically aligned is a godsend.

    19. zora*

      It also creates EXTRA WORK for the people receiving your resume, if they have to scan it to get it uploaded into their internal hiring system. Generally people don’t want to hire someone who is creating extra work for them, before. even. getting. the. job.

    20. JamieS*

      Unless someone is applying to be part of a carpel tunnel research project I can’t see there being any benefit

        1. Lora*

          If I received a CV written in calligraphy, it better be sealed with sealing wax, delivered by either bird or be-wigged footman, and also I would treasure it forever even if it had no relevant experience. I wouldn’t HIRE the person, I would just find it hilarious enough to get everyone to come look at it before hiring someone else.

    21. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I know you got lots of answers to this, but I want to chime in and say that I would not get the impression that someone was “really invested in a certain role” if they sent handwritten documents. I would assume they had no computer/technical skills and, in this day and age, that would likely knock them out of the running for any position I was trying to fill.

    25. Traveling Teacher*

      This used to be a big thing in France, but it is *not* a thing anymore!

      Cursive writing is still a huge deal in French schools, and university-level students still turn in their work handwritten if it’s not explicitly specified that it’s not supposed to be typed. They say that it’s to prove that they took the assignment seriously (and also that printing is expensive), but I think that for a majority it’s a case of subverting a dying cultural norm to their own ends. Namely, plagiarism!

    27. Chaordic One*

      I’ve heard of this and I’ve even seen it in practice. It’s a bad idea.

      Very few people have decent handwriting, and even if you do, you have to figure that your application is going to be read by people who aren’t going to look at it very closely at first. You want to make sure that it is easy to read, so a copy of a clearly written, well-formatted resume prepared with a word processor is what is you want.

      Also, it should be pretty easy to tweak a resume to appeal to a specific job that you might be applying for and then print it out. I pretty much tailor each resume to the specific job that I’m applying for, so almost every one is one-of-a-kind and its really not that big of a deal.

  20. ThatGirl*

    There’s no nice way to correct a co-worker on small mistakes, is there?

    She keeps saying things *to customers* that are a little wrong, like calling Instagram “a blog”, calling the @ symbol an “ampersand sign” while giving out an email address, or mangling a URL as “www dot info @ teapots dot com” which … no.

    She’s usually on the phone saying these things so I don’t really want to be obnoxious. But she sits right in front of me so I can’t help but hear them.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Pull her aside sometime when she’s not on the phone and say something like “Hey, I’ve noticed you giving out our website as [insert mangled mishmash of url and email address], but that’s not quite right. It should be [correct url]. Just wanted to let you know so our customers don’t get confused!”

    2. Snark*

      The instagram and @ symbol issues are small enough that I’d let them fly. The url mangling has the potential to really confuse someone, though, so I think it’s worth mentioning to her in a light, breezy kind of way.

        2. ThatGirl*

          Right, I was picturing someone who wasn’t tech-savvy typing in “info&website.com” and being really confused.

          So far they’ve all been one-offs, but I appreciate the ideas and scripts if I keep noticing it.

    3. ContentWrangler*

      If you think these issues are causing customer confusion, then you should probably bring it up. I think you can still be nice about it. Just catch her privately and explain you’ve noticed a couple things that she is accidentally saying wrong. Maybe if you could make a joke or light comment about how hard it can be to keep new social media/internet stuff straight?

    5. Millennial Lawyer*

      Since this is to customers, and about the business, this warrants saying something – in a LIGHT tone. “Hey, I noticed you said X and I just wanted to let you know X, since we don’t want to accidentally confuse the customer!” If she reacts poorly to your suggestion, it might be worth mentioning to your manager and asking how to handle it.

      1. ThatGirl*

        My manager sits right behind me, so unless I did it while she wasn’t at her desk, she’d likely hear. I don’t think she heard CW say those slightly-off things, though.

        Anyway – I appreciate the input. I’ll have to work on my “friendly” tone, I can sound a bit overexplainy at times.

        1. Yorick*

          Don’t worry about the manager overhearing, unless you think she’d overreact. It’s a small mistake and it should be pretty easy to correct, so it shouldn’t get her in any trouble or anything.

          2. ThatGirl*

            I meant to say – I don’t think she’d care in the slightest, she’d want me to say something if we were giving out bad info. Just noting that I wouldn’t so much need to mention it to her as she’d overhear me in the first place.

        2. Millennial Lawyer*

          You’re being very thoughtful about how to broach this with your coworker so I think you should be fine! Good luck!

          1. Specialk9*

            I have had coworkers for whom being corrected would have been a big problem. Like Cold War at work problem. You might go to the manager instead.

  21. Murphy*

    I’m nursing, and there’s a small room in my office that I can use for pumping. It’s not reservable, but it’s usually available when I want it (and I have other less convenient options when it’s not). There’s a big glass window on the door, but it’s been covered with contact paper, so you can see if the light is on, but you can’t really see in the room. There’s also a sign on the door that says “Room in use. Do not disturb.”

    Yesterday I was pumping and looking at my phone, when I looked up to see a women I didn’t recognize outside the room pressing herself against the glass. Now she looked like she was trying to listen into the room rather than look into the room, but it made me really uncomfortable. I didn’t say or do anything in the moment because I was kind of shocked. I always make sure I lock the door when I’m in there, so I wasn’t in danger of getting walked in on, but is this something I should tell anyone about? I don’t know who it was, and I’m not sure what anyone could do, but considering what I was doing in there, it really wasn’t cool.

    1. Thursday Next*

      Yikes! That is very unsettling. The only thing I can think of is that this woman was trying to find a private space for something herself, and wondering if this room could suit, or that she was leaning against the door for balance while adjusting a shoe or something. Either way, though, it shouldn’t happen. Is there a sign on the door identifying it as a lactation room? Is it used for other purposes? A very clear pair of signs: “Private Lactation Room” and “In Use—Do Not Knock or Disturb” might help.

      1. Murphy*

        It is used for other purposes (and we do have “designated lactation rooms”, they’re just in other buildings). It’s a really small room, two chairs, an end table, and a phone. We have an open office area, so I think people use it for phone calls/conference calls sometimes.

        I also had someone else knock on the door the other day, but they didn’t appear to be trying to look/listen in the room. I’ve been using it for months without incident!

    2. essEss*

      It sounds like she wanted to use the room and was trying to verify if someone was actually in there so that she didn’t end up asking someone to unlock the room (expecting to find it vacant) and then finding out you were actually in there.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      So, the charitable interpretation of this would be that this person was just trying to check whether the room truly was occupied/if a phone call was going on in there/some other reason. Perhaps sometimes the door is closed even when the room is not in use, so they were just double checking.

      If this seems like more than just that from your instinct, maybe a reminder email about respecting privacy of people using the room and just assume it is occupied if the door is closed. I would probably wait until this happens again, though since I feel like the most likely reason was confusion about whether the room was taken.

    4. [insert witty user name here]*

      How long was she pressed against the glass (that you noticed)? If it was a short time (15-20 seconds or less), she probably was either trying to verify that the room was in use or trying to figure out what the sound was. The first time I walked by a room where someone was pumping (and didn’t know it was a designated pumping room), I heard the sound faintly and, not being familiar with it, paused to try to figure out where it was coming from and what it was. So fingers crossed that’s all it was. If it happens again or she stays there for a long time, I could call out “this room is occupied!” and I bet she’d scurry away.

    5. Murphy*

      Thanks, everyone. I might just be overreacting. She might not have realized how visible she was from the inside (since she was right up against the glass).

    6. J.B.*

      If she doesn’t know what the room is used for, could she have been trying to place the “wee-ahh” sound? It’s pretty weird. I’m sorry – that must be frustrating. But probably good to put the word out in nearby offices so people can know.

    7. Thlayli*

      She probably was trying to figure out if it was actually in use or not – if you were on your own then you wouldn’t have been making much noise, so she was listening to try to figure out if it was occupied or not without trying the door.
      Sure it was a bit of a weird way to do it, but hardly merits reporting unless it happens again.

      1. Anony*

        That’s what I was thinking, especially since it is not exclusively a lactation room. Did she even know it is sometimes used as a lactation room? She might have been confused about why it was so quiet and the room in use sign was on the door.

    8. Airkewl Pwaroe*

      Is there any way to get a calendar for this room, treating it as a bookable conference room? We did this at my last company where three women (myself included) were all pumping at the same time, and it really cut down on the awkward knocking (followed by the awkward half shout of, “Occupied!” into a high traffic hallway).

  22. Ask a Manager* Post author

    FYI to anyone who didn’t see it yesterday: In the comments on yesterday’s post about working from home with pets, demands were made for a post with photos of pets taking over people’s work space. If you want to send in a photo for said upcoming post, send it to me at alison@askamanager.org. (The photo should be not just of your pet, but should show the workspace with the pet in it. Feel free to include any explanatory caption you’d like included.) Deadline for sending in is Monday.

    5. Earthwalker*

      If only I could submit a sound. Working at home worked so well except for the rare occasions that my husband would make a quick trip to the hardware store. Then and only then the cat would come into the downstairs nook that served as my office and shout, “OH, NOOooooo! He’s GONE and we’re all aloOOOOOoone! I think we’re going to STARVE and DIEeeee all alooOOOOone here! OOOOHHHH!” He would usually do this from a stair step just beyond my reach while I was speaking on a conference call. After awhile my husband would return and the cat would go back to being quiet upstairs and act like it never happened.

    7. Airkewl Pwaroe*

      What about pets in a non-work-from-home space? What if, in years past, you brought your dog into a biology lab for Take Your Dog To Work Day, and have him photographed next to test tubes? Asking for a friend.

  23. Lynn*

    At what point do you classify a workplace as being ‘toxic’?
    The term seems to crop up quite often (which is probably to be expected, given the nature of this website), but I don’t think it’s been defined. What is the distinction between a workplace that’s simply unpleasant (boring/underpaid/poor benefits etc.?) to being actually /toxic/?

    1. dr_silverware*

      My impression is, it’s just the effect on you. To extend the metaphor, is it poisoning your mood during the workday and beyond the workday? Is it affecting how you live your life, your mental health? Someone with a boring job may not find it toxic, they may like to have time to switch off and just do data entry; someone else with that same job may be desperately seeking stimulation, asking their boss for more work and not getting it, coming home tired and miserable and energy-less, dreading going to a gray day at work. So that person is in a toxic job, where the first person who’s ok with the job would look at their colleague like, “what’s the problem? It’s a relaxing day and a stressless job!”

      1. Specialk9*

        I don’t think boring plays into toxic at all! Being undermined, having ugly power trips and routine unkindness, volatility, and no way to win – those are toxic.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I’d define “toxic” as an environment where professional behavior is neither expected nor encouraged, leading people to try to resolve problems in ways that are destructive long-term. The specific nature of the toxicity varies a lot, but at bottom, it’s a place where generally accepted professional norms aren’t part of the culture.

    3. Enough*

      Toxic is not about the basics of work we all experiences at one time or another (what you listed). It’s about the behavior of the people. How they talk and behave and treat others.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, I think of it as if co-workers were creating deadly radiation with their actions or words. Like the workplace is actually poisoning you with bullying, negativity, or corruption.

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      When the petty politics and games actively get in the way of doing the job then your workplace is toxic. Coworkers going for lunch without you is rude but not really toxic. Hoarding information you need to do your job gets into toxic territory. Actively sabotaging or erasing your work is definitely there. Likewise for management doing the same. On the personal side, when your health is impacted it’s time to run away. Getting sick all the time is a warning sign.

      I’ve worked in places with people who were merely rude and I generally ignored them. Toxic places hurt you and leave long term effects. Unfortunately I’ve learned this from experience.

      1. JustShutUpAlready*

        Me too, NoMoreMrFixit. Toxic workplaces can definitely impact your health. I had so much stress and pain stored up inside me at one gruesome job that the day after I announced my resignation, I became so ill I had to be hospitalized. I still get belly flops when I recall that employment experience. I hope you are doing much better.

    5. Millennial Lawyer*

      I think it’s a holistic interpretation – it’s more than just specific *incidents* but that literally you cannot bear the environment as a whole

    6. Frustrated Optimist*

      For me, “toxic” means that you dread going to work, but not simply because of a high workload, or even demanding, unattainable requirements.

      “Toxic” is feeling wholly unsupported by management. “Toxic” is being humiliated in either subtle or overt ways. “Toxic” is knowing that the organization does not value you, and will not be helping you grow as an employee.

    7. AMPG*

      I tend to think of a “toxic” workplace as one where the management is such that the employees can’t effectively do the work they were hired to do. This could be due to any number of reasons – contradicting policies, petty interpersonal conflicts, extreme micromanagement, etc. – but the effect is that the company doesn’t operate at full capacity as a result.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Toxic workplaces can cause physical and emotional symptoms.

      With boredom my biggest problem is staying awake, staying focused. With toxic workplaces, I never worry about staying awake, I have too many other things to keep track of and watch out for.

      Think of the difference between these two activities:
      1) Dusting and vacuuming your house.
      2) Your house is totally engulfed in flames and you are trying to put the fire out with a garden hose.

    9. Newlywed*

      To me, toxic is when 1) I’ve identified the issues and tried my best to adapt and change what I can + 2) when I’ve reached the point that what I cannot change is so unbearable that it’s time to leave.

      Be advised that if it’s a leadership issue (upper leadership and management is poor) you’re unlikely to be successful at trying to change anything.

    10. Louise*

      For me a big sign is how systemic the bad behavior is—are people who treat others poorly being protected, is cutthroat culture encouraged from the top, does management turn a blind eye to things like favoritism. I think it’s less about individual unpleasant experiences and more about a culture that allows/encourages/fosters emotionally or mentally damaging behavior, if that makes sense?

    11. Earthwalker*

      Good question! I’ve always wondered how to tell the difference between being a good normal employee in a toxic workplace and being a drama queen in a good normal workplace. Wouldn’t the employee’s own internal narrative be the same in both cases? How can you be sure you know when it’s time to toughen up and deal and when it’s time to update your resume?

    13. Triple Anon*

      When it affects my health outside of work.

      When the level of dysfunction is borderline illegal or clearly illegal (harassment, discrimination, not paying people fairly, dangerous conditions, etc). Or just so extreme that most people would consider it unethical. Bonus points for this being bad enough that work isn’t really being done, or that it’s damaging your career.

    14. All Hail Queen Sally*

      I have had several jobs in the past that I used to call toxic. Upon reflection, I now think that only one was truly toxic and the others were more dysfunctional. While all were unpleasant and stressful, the one I still think of as toxic contained a degree of “meanness” that was absent in the others. The management targeted employees just because they could. The stress made us all feel sick and although I have been gone for several years, I am now suffering from medical issues that my doctor thinks are related.

    15. SeekingBetter*

      I consider my workplace toxic. My boss (also my manager) frequently doesn’t respond to my emails, cancels 1-on-1 meetings constantly, and even didn’t let me and another coworker know she will be out of the office all of next week. We only found out from her assistant when the assistant told us yesterday. Because of her unresponsiveness, it’s impacting my job. On top of all of that, my boss sent an email to my coworkers and I telling us that we’ll have to let her know about PTO or modifying our schedules two weeks in advance, but only if she feels like approving it for us. *Sigh*

    16. MissDissplaced*

      I think “toxic” is when the level of a bad job rises to being actively hostile: such as personal attacks, bullying, yelling, harassment (sexual or other), retaliation, and other bad behaviors that are ongoing and consistent.
      Consistency is a key factor for classifying a workplace as toxic, and usually this is experienced by multiple employees. However, it could be possible that only one employee may experience the toxicity being directed at them.

  24. Bobbi*

    Choose your own adventure novel!!

    I’ve talked about this here a few times, but I accepted a FT position after freelancing for a long time and it was the wrong decision. Not an awful office but just SOOOO not the right fit, career or culture or work style wise, for me.

    I am moving back to freelancing by June but I’m prepared to leave earlier. My department is INCREDIBLY slammed and my higher up (not my manager) is moving to another position so things are only getting worse. I think they would do what it takes to keep me on for as long as possible, but of course you never know. I’m managing part of a large event in early May and don’t think it would be kind to leave before then, and don’t think they would want me to.

    My office is very contractor friendly and a lot of former employees move on to contracting roles. I would totally be willing to do this PT.

    I also adore my manager and don’t want to make him sad.

    Would it be best to:

    A) tell him soonish, saying I can stick around as long as he wants (until June latest) and help train a new employee or anything they need and then, if they want, move to a contracting role. This would make me feel best because I would have a clear end date and would feel like I’m being helpful and not leaving everyone in the fire toilet.

    B) wait until the event is complete, giving him a month or so of warning.

    C) give my abrupt 2 weeks when it is time.

    3. Sherm*

      I agree with “B”. Unless you are in an unusual field where it is typical to give extended notice, it could come back to bite you in various ways (including their letting you go on the spot, well before you were ready to return to freelancing). Also, do you have a glimpse of how the former employees/current contractors handled their own transition?

  25. Morning Glory*

    Sorry in advance for the long post, but I could really use some outside perspectives on this.

    Three years ago, I accepted a job on Teapot Innovation, a new team led by Robert, a VIP at Prestigious Organization. The job had an admin sounding name, but it promised to have a lot of opportunities for higher level work and professional growth, plus great benefits. I was 24, this was in my field, it seemed like a great opportunity. I turned down a promotion at OldJob to move to Prestigious Organization.

    Two years ago, Robert decided on a refocus for Teapot Innovation, which led to the team being laid off or quitting. Robert liked my performance, and kept me on, but my job ended up much more admin. I learned most people at this org with my title are secretaries with no hope of upward growth. Robert planned to rebuild Teapot Innovation, at which point I would be able to go back to the work I wanted to do.

    I’ve been miserable as an admin, and the way admins are treated here has impacted my self-esteem. I am job searching, but not a lot of luck with anything non-admin because of this. My sole non-admin work has been a newsletter I pitched to create during my first year that goes to about 100 people. It’s nothing earth-shattering, but people like it, and it has my name attached to it.

    Robert finally hired Cersei as a new person on Teapot Innovation with a title much higher than mine and suggested to me that I work with her on online teapots. Cersei did not see how I could contribute, and declined my help; she has never shown any interest in me beyond admin work.

    About one month ago, Robert told me he wants me to refocus my newsletter, and positioned it as an opportunity for me to expand my project and do more non-admin work. He told me to think of a few people I’d like to be involved. I suggested Cersei because it would have looked weird to Robert to omit her, but also because I wanted her to see me work in a non-admin function.
    It has been a nightmare.

    She thinks she is the lead on this project and I am supporting her, despite knowing I created the newsletter and have handled it for over two years. She insulted its quality, said she never reads it, and when analytics showed exceptionally high engagement, implied that there was a flaw in the tracking. She presented it at the department meeting without telling me, and barely mentioned my involvement. She’s done work I had suggested I take on, also without telling me. She also keeps positioning my contributions as ‘help.’ When I do X and Y, she thanks me for ‘helping them do X and Y.’ She even changed the name for the sender of the newsletter from mine to Robert without telling me. I rehearsed all last weekend to address it with her in a meeting this week, but couldn’t go through with it. I was worried she’d think I was delusional to think my role on this project was anything other than admin support.

    Robert is miles above me, and not my supervisor; this project is a tiny speck on his radar. He is always travelling, and would not be impressed if I went to him about Cersei not playing nicely.
    I waited for so long for Teapot Innovation to be rebuilt, and now that this is happening, instead of going back to the work I liked, I lost the only project I had left. don’t know what to do, beyond doubling down on my job search. Anyone have any advice on how to move forward from this?

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      I think you actually do have grounds to address this. In hindsight, I don’t think you had to involve Cersei, but since you did, the focus should be solving this. First, I would talk directly with Cersei. I would just say that you talked about it with Robert and he wanted the newsletter to be an opportunity for you to have more non-admin work, and that you would like to have your name on it and be a leader on working on it. I would not complain about things she has done already, but more of a conversation of how you’d like to increase your involvement going forward and you have Robert’s backing on that.

      If she’s unreasonable about this, and says she does not want you to be involved for any reason, you absolutely have grounds to escalate it because it was a directive FROM Robert. It wouldn’t be a waste of his time to hear that someone he hired is not following his directive.

      I wouldn’t go to Robert without discussing it with Cersei first because that is probably what he’d tell you to do.

    2. CatCat*

      I’d be really focused here on what the biggest deal is here: “She thinks she is the lead on this project…”

      Either you’re wrong about you being the lead, or she is wrong about her being the lead. That is what needs to be clarified here. If you both think that you are the lead and are not able to agree on this topic, that’s something for the next person higher up to deal with (is it Robert?) and could probably be dealt with expeditiously since presumably Robert knows who he meant to be lead on the project.

      This is not about going to him about “Cersei not playing nicely” because if she is lead, she’s not really out of line here. This is about making sure everyone is on the same page about roles.

      It’s definitely worth bringing up with Cersei first. “Cersei, my understanding is that Robert has made me the lead on this project, but is your understanding different?” I mean, does she even know what Robert told you?

      1. Millennial Lawyer*

        I completely agree with this. I stand by my advice above but the first step would be to clarify what you were directed to do.

        1. CatCat*

          I agree with you! Maybe more like, “Cersei, Robert directed me to lead this project. Is your understanding different?”

      2. Morning Glory*

        So, to clarify, Robert wanted us to be collaborators working together (there are a couple of other people who are less involved). That, to me, means, that I may not get the final say on a decision, but that we discuss it together, and she does not make decisions unilaterally without bothering to tell me. It also means that she accepts my contributions as they are instead of minimizing them with ‘helper’ language. That’s a less diplomatic gist of the script I’d rehearsed last weekend, but did not actually have the courage to say.

        I am certain that my role is not supposed to be to provide admin support to her on this project. And, she’s been pretty insulting and unkind so I think she would be out of line even if that is what she thinks.
        CatCat, based on your last to last line, I am curious if maybe I am too close to the situation – do you think her behavior would be ok if she were actually the project lead, knowing that this had been my project for two years? The part I wrote about insulting the original, implying the analytics showing high engagement were wrong, etc.

        1. CatCat*

          If she were in charge, I do think you are taking things pretty personally. She doesn’t need to check in with you about presentations, what she is working on, how she credits you, or make unilateral decisions about whose name is the sender. It’s snotty to insult the quality to your face, but I don’t know what she actually said here. If she is lead and says the quality is low and the data flawed on how it is tracked, that’s not out of line for saying those things. Whether you would want to put up with how she is vs. moving on is the only question, really. Having worked for snotty people who hog credit, I feel you on the frustration, but it’s not really for you to fix as a subordinate.

          But you’re NOT a subordinate here. You’re co-leads on this project. That is something you can address. “Cersei, Robert directed us to collaborate on this project, but you’ve been making unilateral decisions on presentations, assignments, and changes to the newsletter. This has not been a collaboration, so going forward, here is what I need so we can operate as we’ve been directed: [things you need to get this back on track as a collaboration]. Does this make sense?” Hear her out and work on getting on the same page on the process. Email her documentation of what you agree to. If you can’t agree, or she thinks she is lead, then you may have to escalate.

          For the “helper” language, you can call that out in the moment in a breezy way, “Oh, I didn’t just help do X and Y, I actually did X and Y.” Whether it is worth policing this language… eh, that’s for you to decide.

          If she insults the newsletter again, that you can also call out in the moment, calmly. “What do you mean by that?/Why do you say that?/I don’t agree with your opinion.”

          You’ve got to screw your courage to the sticking place to address this though as she clearly is acting like she is in charge (and maybe thinks she is!) What’s holding you back here?

          1. Morning Glory*

            Yeah, I think you’re right on both counts. None of these things would be a big deal on a project I was providing support on, and I have to force myself to raise the issue with her. It’s just quite intimidating to do that with someone so senior to me, but it’s pretty necessary.
            Thanks CatCat and Millennial Lawyer both for your insights, I appreciate them.

        2. Specialist*

          You’ve been in this situation far too long. You should have that conversation with her, and you should have a conversation with Robert about getting out of the admin position. I thought you went there to work in teapot design and you’ve been kept in an admin position for years?!? Do you see yourself getting to do the work you want in this organization? It sounds to me that Cereci will keep you as an admin forever. I think the biggest conversation would be with Robert on why you haven’t been given the job you moved for.

          1. Morning Glory*

            Yeah, that’s really close to what happened. The job was more supposed to be a junior teapot designer, which did include some admin work, but plenty of project work as well – and that’s what it was for the first year.

            The VP who hired me and told me all this during the interviews was laid off with everyone else, and it’s challenging to raise a complaint about my job when I’ve seen so many people leave involuntarily. I have discussed all of these concerns with my new direct supervisor (neither Robert nor Cersei) but she does not have a lot of power to advocate for me.

            I am scared to bring this up with Robert, and partly it’s because this job has been a tremendous blow to my confidence. Writing this all out, I feel like focusing on my job search is probably my best opportunity.

  26. Potter*

    One of my co-workers gave her notice recently. I feel a weird kind of sadness about. I say ‘weird’ because I’m not close to her at all beyond small talk in the hallway or the (very) occasional group lunches, but she’s very efficient at her job and is a pleasant person in general. We don’t have anything in common and I’m not keen on connecting outside of work, yet I think I’d miss having her around.

    (It’s sort of similar to the way I felt about some of my classmates back at school…nice to hang around in the classroom dynamic, nothing in common outside of school, so unlikely to be BFFs after graduation – nor interested in getting touch again – but still get nostalgic about old times occasionally).

    2. Delphine*

      I always get sad when someone leaves. Part of it is because I respect and admire them and will legitimately miss them, and part of it is because their existence is part of my day-to-day environment. They leave and that means change and adjustments and things not being like they used to, and that’s a bit sad too.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      This is a nice time to send someone a note! I’m sure she’d really appreciate just a quick email saying you’ll miss her.

    4. Midwest Red Sox Fan*

      I call this feeling “HappySad.” Happy for them that they are moving on to something new, sad for me because I’ll miss them a bit.

  27. High Heels*

    Hi Everyone,

    Long-time reader, first time commenter here. I would appreciate your take on my work situation. I started a new job January 8 at an Insurance Firm as a Personal Assistant to one of the Executive Directors. So far it has been a frustrating and stressful experience for me.

    My on boarding was done in 3 hours by the former PA (who left last October) It was rushed and very unsatisfactory. I have continued to reach out to him for guidance and clarity on major work processes. The on-boarding was arranged at my own instance with no input or assistance from Human Resources.

    I was forced to take work home my very first week on the job. I didn’t get much sleep/rest that whole week, because an end of year sales report had to be ready for the boss’ presentation at a companywide meeting for Saturday. I have a legal background, I enjoy reading, writing and communicating and said so during my interview for this job.

    My work is 100% excel based, with little to no writing involved except when I write emails. A major responsibility of this role is collating and calculating the sales record of all company staff (over 150 staff) then presenting figures to all staff…………it gets extremely frustrating at this point.

    Long story short, I am a lawyer basically doing accounting work and feeling like a sales clerk calculating other people’s sales records, which I do not like. Some co-workers I need to often work with to carry out my responsibilities, are already giving attitude and proving to be difficult to work with. Being the new girl I am trying to keep my head down, be pleasant, do my work and not react to the negativity but I swear it’s both unsettling and upsetting.

    How long does it take to really recognize that a job is not a good fit? I feel like this one isn’t a good fit given my strong dislike for the nature of the work and other factors. Two close friends I’ve vented to, say I should give it more time, I’m still new on the job, things could get better.

    One said, to hold on until I find something new……. If I’m not feeling the current job, which is sound logic because there are bills to pay, but for each day I get up for work I don’t feel good. I can’t even articulate that feeling but it’s akin to your soul dying a bit within you.

    I am at a point in my life where I want to eliminate negativity as much as possible and positively make the most of my life in all areas/aspects. Can anyone relate?

    Has anyone ever been here? What did you do? How do I handle myself and this whole situation without self-sabotaging?

    When I am ready to leave (which will be sooner rather than later) I would like to be honest and say the job is not a good fit for me. Is there a script I can use to candidly articulate things without coming across as flaky and flighty?

    My sister generally thinks this of me – that when the going gets tough I bail (she’s not aware of my current work situation) but I worry that if I do quit this job in less than 6 months are opinion may be right after all.

    1. Joielle*

      I think for me it would depend on what you were told the role would be when you were applying and interviewing. Did you know it would be largely a data-driven role, or did the position description make it sound like there would be more substantive writing and analysis? If the role is significantly different than what was represented in the position description or job ad, I’d probably bring it up with your supervisor. You could ask something like “During my interview, we had talked about me doing tasks like X and Y, which I was particularly interested in. Could we talk about me taking on more of those tasks as part of my regular work?”

      I obviously don’t know anything about your specific situation aside from what you’ve written, but I wonder if there could be a bit of mismatch between your expectations and the actual role. You mentioned that the title is “Personal Assistant,” but that you’re also a lawyer (?). I wouldn’t ordinarily expect to use legal skills in a PA role. It sounds like you feel like the tasks are beneath you somewhat, but as a PA I think you do have to sometimes take on administrative tasks that aren’t the most exciting. If the role was misrepresented to you, I think you should talk it out with your supervisor, but if not, maybe being a PA is just not a career that you’ll enjoy.

      1. teclatrans*

        But I wouldn’t expect a PA position to be entirely based around preparing spreadsheets and presenting data, either, so I wouldn’t rule out the field entirely.

        You say you told them you enjoy writing and communicating in that first interview, do you mean that they said this was part of the role and you emphasized your enjoyment of and skill with those aspects? Or were they vague about what the job requires, and did you think that stating your preferences would either help shape the job or maybe give them the understanding that they shouldn’t offer you the position unless it fit your strengths?

        I think that if the job is entirely based on a type if work you dislike, and if you feel like your communications skills are being neglected and you are frustrated by it, then you should embrace that knowledge and get out of dodge. If you haven’t been at this job long, you could quit and leave it off your resume. If it has taught you something — the types of responsibilities you hate or which need to be only minor aspects of a job; the types of responsibilities that really are necessary for you to feel competent and derive some satisfaction; the need to be crystal clear on the job duties — then this won’t be a waste.

        If you wanted to try sticking it out and the job is not what you thought it would be, I would suggest going to your manager and raising the concern, maybe it’s a seasonal thing, maybe they need to train you so that you can do some other tasks but have been slammed or just putting it off, etc.

    2. a-no*

      I also would be really interested in what to say that would articulate that the position wasn’t a good fit!

      And for your other question – I knew within the first two week this was not the job for me. As I’m in a recession province currently and there aren’t a lot of jobs available I am still here almost a year later and that ‘feeling’ that this was not a good fit has proven itself true and accurate from the get go. I’ve gone home and had a full tantrum cry over how much I hate it here and the ridiculous shit I have to put up with day in and out.
      One thing to consider is if it’s growing pains or really not a good fit. My last job I was iffy on if it was a fit or a newbie thing – and it turned out to be a newbie thing. Within two months I felt much better about the position and settled in a bit.
      So my suggestion is for two months, try and wipe the slate clean daily. Jane was a bit of an ass today, tomorrow it never happened. I just try to give it real chance, don’t make any decision regarding it except maybe try to find things you do like daily. As I’ve been stuck here for awhile, I have taken to as soon as I get in my car after work – I take a real deep breath and move on. It’s done, it’s over and I’m over it. Don’t take these things home with you, create some sort of end of day routine where after that point you do not think about or talk about work. Maybe its the first bite of dinner signifies work is off limits or my car thing.

    3. Natalie*

      My work is 100% excel based, with little to no writing involved except when I write emails. A major responsibility of this role is collating and calculating the sales record of all company staff (over 150 staff) then presenting figures to all staff…………it gets extremely frustrating at this point.

      Long story short, I am a lawyer basically doing accounting work and feeling like a sales clerk calculating other people’s sales records, which I do not like

      I can’t quite tell – was this a bait and switch kind of scenario where they promised you something using your legal background but now have you doing very different things? Or were you aware of these accounting tasks going in?

      The reason I ask is that I think your mental approach is going to be different depending on what happened. If you were mislead or the job changed significantly, in some states you could quit and collect unemployment to cushion you as you keep searching for work. And it’s much easier to explain if it comes up in future interviews – “I was hired as an [X], but when I started the job was primarily [Y unrelated thing]”.

      If you’re having trouble finding work as an attorney, and you accepted non-attorney work out of necessity, really the only thing you can do is adjust your own attitude. Or maybe you thought it wouldn’t bother you, but it does, in which case accept that you made a mistake and apply this lesson to future job opportunities.

    4. Specialk9*

      You already know you don’t like this job.

      Sticking to it to prove your sister wrong seems like a child’s reactivity – perhaps you could talk with a therapist to figure out how true her concept of you is, vs being about things in her head, or reasonable responses to life. Sometimes fleeing is the most healthy course, and sometimes it can actually be a pattern.

      But right now that’s not really relevant. Your job is a poor fit. You get to move on to a better fit if you’re unhappy.

      1. High Heels*

        Thanks Specialk9, Natalie and everyone who provided feedback. Your input has definitely been helpful

  28. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Has anyone ever put together a training program for new hires? My company has exactly zero training resources that aren’t either:
    a) Too vague and broad to be useful
    b) So specific that it only applies to one or two teams
    Is HR responsible for training new hires at your workplace? Or is it done by individual team members/supervisors/managers?

    1. Red Reader*

      At my org there’s a day of orientation that addresses HR stuff that applies to everyone, then a half day of department specific orientation. But training, like how to do the day to day job, is handled at the team level. I implemented a formal training plan for my team last year because we didn’t have one.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Both. Some HR stuff, some from individual teams, and it sort of goes in blocks that come together gradually. We have an onboarding checklist and a list of core training workshops which helps.

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Yes I’ve done this in the past. It started with a list of frequently asked questions/problems new people had and couldn’t find an answer to unless a more experienced person explicitly told them. In my case it was IT help desk and user support. The training focused on what information to collect from users and how to troubleshoot. We also covered who does what in the overall department so they knew where to escalate tickets. Occasional workshops were done to cover new technologies we were introducing as needed. Looking back I honestly wish I had focused more on that area in my career than the direction I eventually went in. It was far more rewarding for me.

    4. Judy (since 2010)*

      One former manager had a good way to train new hires. This was for a software team, so all of us had similar roles, just different projects. He split knowledge areas up into small “courses”, based on tools, interfaces, etc. Everyone on the team had responsibility for training on something over the first two months. That way the new hires got to interact with everyone on the team.

    5. Jadelyn*

      We have a mix. There’s the day 1 orientation that HR does, which covers paperwork, policy, benefits, payroll, employee programs, etc.; there’s a separate IT orientation (short one, just half an hour) on the person’s second day that covers our helpdesk system and a handful of unique systems we use; for branch operations staff, we have a training and compliance team that does a 3.5-day course the remainder of that first week. More specific training is on-the-job on an ongoing basis, done by the manager or delegated by the manager to someone else.

      It basically depends on what you need. We built ours modular as best we could – there are core components that apply to everyone, like the HR and IT stuff, and there are swappable components like branch ops.

    6. Amber Rose*

      We do two versions of training. My version consists of a tour of the building with key features such as fire extinguishers, manuals, introduction to first aiders and supervisors/managers, and then a quick run down of safety rules. They also get a binder from me full of written instructions on how to do common tasks and what PPE is required. These are things that they are also taught hands-on by their supervisor but the written instructions are a good reference for them and saves them taking excessive amounts of notes.

      The second training is, of course, hands-on training by the supervisor or other competent people.

      We also have yearly reminder training for everyone that I make from scratch every year, bi-weekly training talks and a bunch of external training that people have to take. It’s all very training-oriented around here.

    7. EA in CA*

      In my old company, I managed HR while supporting the executives as their Executive Assistant. I trained all the managers in the company to led the 1st day orientation. They are typically the ones who know the job best. I supported them by reviewing the training schedule, set up the appointments with the team members who were assigned for specific training items, made sure first day packets were ready, etc. I created a step by step guide from those bringing on new hires on everything they generally needed to think about when creating the training schedule. It was general, but I did put in points under every subheading as a thinking point to the managers to think about their division’s specific requirements.

      It has worked well and have been told that it was very much appreciated by the mangers to have even a general guide on what to think about when training new staff.

    8. periwinkle*

      Currently at my (very huge corporation) employer, all new hires go through a 1-day general orientation. What happens after that depends on the function and/or department. The future state will be more consistent now that we’re replacing our ludicrous array of unconnected software packages with one comprehensive HR software system, but that’s still a year or so away from implementation.

      I helped one function to revamp its new hire onboarding and it was a big success. Before the new hire arrives, a designated administrative person sets up the logistical needs – order the computer, set up the desk, add the new person to team/departmental meetings and group addresses, and contact the new hire to explain where to go on Day One. That admin will also work with the new hire for the first couple days to make sure she has access to needed systems and knows where to find the printers, bathrooms, and break rooms (most admins were doing this anyway, of course). A peer of the new hire is designated to be an official peer mentor who is expected to get her settled into the role, follow up on initial training and answer questions, introduce her to key people, and otherwise get her into the rhythm of the work. The manager is also required to meet regularly with the new hire to set expectations, offer feedback, and give guidance. The peer mentor and manager have accountability – their support of new hires is factored into performance reviews.

      Or at least that’s how it worked until they re-org’ed again. I’ve no idea if they kept it up after that.

      My own onboarding was, shall we say, minimalistic.

  29. Anonymous Pooper*

    Going anon for this because of bathroom stuff, but this is a serious question… about skid marks. I don’t know what it is about the toilet at my workplace (because I rarely have this issue at home), but often when I go #2 there, the bowl ends up with skid marks after the flush. What I want to know is how much of an effort one is expected to make to eliminate this effect so as to avoid grossing out the next toilet user.

    The topic of pooping at one’s workplace has been thoroughly discussed here (e.g., the “office pooper” post from November). The consensus seems to be that since everybody poops and odors are a fact of life, one should not be ashamed of using the workplace toilet for its intended purpose, and those who believe otherwise are being unreasonable. But do visible skid marks take it too far? There is no toilet brush available in the restroom, so there is a limit to what can be done when this happens. Sometimes multiple flushes are effective, but of course that can waste quite a bit of water. I’ve also had some luck with throwing some toilet paper in the bowl, waiting a minute for it to sink, and then flushing, but that can waste toilet paper and time. This is a single occupancy restroom, and it’s common for one or more people to be waiting outside the door, so (1) it seems inconsiderate to take excessive time while people are waiting, and (2) the next person knows exactly who was in there before her.

    So… Any thoughts or advice on this?

    2. ladydoc*

      Buy a dirt cheap toilet brush (like $2 at ikea) and leave it in the bathroom. I’m not kidding. In England lots of commercial toilets had brushes sitting next to them, which was something I had never seen at home. I grew to appreciate it.

      1. Observer*

        NO. Please do NOT do this. It comes off as passive aggressive. And the potential for winding up with a REAL mess rather that something minor is way too high.

        1. zora*

          I don’t feel like this is passive aggressive at all, actually. You are putting a tool there which you and everyone else can use or not use. We have toilet brushes in our bathrooms and people use them and I’m not sure what bigger mess you are envisioning. Ours have never caused problems.

        2. Lissa*

          Really? This seems like a pretty normal thing to have in the toilet! I know I’d appreciate it at times. How would it be passive aggressive?

        3. Yorick*

          Anonymous Pooper would do this to solve his/her own problem, not as a response to someone else. It wouldn’t seem passive aggressive at all.

          And I think most people understand the function of a toilet brush, it seems unlikely that a huge mess would be made?

          1. Observer*

            You can understand what a toilet brush is meant to do, and still make a huge mess using it.

            What do you think is going to happen if someone decides to use it then take it to one of the sinks to rinse it off? Don’t think that someone wouldn’t do something like that, because people do do fairly wierd and stupid stuff.

      2. Thlayli*

        Wait… you don’t have toilet brushes beside toilets in America? Over here every toilet even in cinemas has a brush beside it specifically to allow people to leave the toilet as they found it!

        1. Natalie*

          No, but from what I understand it might have something to do with our plumbing – the toilets flush a lot harder (hard enough to splash water out of the bowl) so even when people do leave some marks it’s pretty typical for them to get flushed away within an hour. The toilet is generally being left as we found it, with no specific cleaning required.

          [Random property manager anecdote – we once had a tenant who was absolutely obsessed with skid marks and basically wanted it to be impossible for them to ever happen. I know we replaced all of the toilets on his floor but I don’t think we ever able to find a 100% skid mark proof toilet. I always kind of wondered if he checked every time people went to the bathroom.

            1. Natalie*

              I don’t know enough about toilets to know if this is universal, but at least for some toilets it doesn’t actually use more water, it just pushes it through with more force. One of the things we tried with our weird tenant was some kind of booster addition that increased the force or changed the angle or something.

            2. TL -*

              USA toilets also shove the water in a much more circular motion than at least NZ/Aus ones do, so the water noticeably sweeps around the bowl – I think that also helps to clean it.

              1. Thlayli*

                It can’t be that good though, if the number of letters on here about gross toilets is any indicator.

                1. TL -*

                  I have literally never noticed a difference between (now) 3 countries – they’re all about equally clean.

                  And I’ve had a wicked kidney infection for the past two weeks, so I’ve been in and out of a lot of Australian bathrooms!

                3. Observer*

                  Eh, I think the letters are generally not about problems with the toilets, but people being gross, or basic cleaning not being done.

        2. TL -*

          Here’s another weird bathroom difference (again for Aus/NZ vs the States) – all the women’s bathrooms in NZ/Aus have sanitary disposals in the stalls, with heavy, fixed lids and book-return-like slots for disposal and very clearly labelled Sanitary Waste.

          I don’t get it – in the States we just dispose of our sanitary waste in trash cans with liners and the janitors a) wear gloves and b) touch nothing but the liners when taking out the waste. (So they pick up, twist close, and throw in larger bin.)

          1. Julie Noted*

            It’s because of different regulatory requirements for the disposal of sanitary waste vs general waste, and the added cost that would come with managing general waste in the same manner as sanitary waste.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, I don’t care about that. It’s a toilet, you poop in it, and as long as you’re not leaving an unflushed mess in the toilet, who gives? Oh gasp horror, there is some meaningless evidence that someone else has used the toilet for its intended purpose! I’m having the vapors! Someone fetch my fainting couch!

      (That said, if there’s often a line for the bathroom at your workplace, that’s… not so good.)

      1. That Lady*

        I think it depends on the industry. I’m a teacher, so there is frequently a line to the single-use staff bathroom. We only get so many opportunities to go, you know?

    4. NoName*

      I usually don’t worry about skid marks unless there’s a brush available. I mean… it’s a bathroom. It’s no secret what happens in there. And the skid marks are usually under the water anyway. Skid marks in the toilet is really low on my list of “things to be bothered by in a shared restroom”.

      4. NoName*

        Noooooo! This is a great way to clog the toilet and end up with a BIGGER mess. I’ve been trying to train my husband not to leave little squares of toilet paper floating in the toilet… solids land on the TP, and the TP holds it together when you flush, and it stays in one mass and gets stuck.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      If there’s no toilet roll, you need to physically remove it with toilet paper and then wash your hands. Because you really should be cleaning up and not leaving it like that, sorry.

      2. Anonymous Pooper*

        Eww, you mean put my hand in the toilet?! Sorry but no. There’s a reason toilet brushes have handles.

      4. Delphine*

        If someone told me they went into the toilet bowl with their hands vs. just leaving a bit of a mark, I would be horrified!

      5. Millennial Lawyer*

        I disagree – a mark on the toilet is very common and people know a bathroom is for business like that. Maintenance who cleans toilets are best equipped to clean it up.

      6. Solidarity*

        Totally changing my name for this post…

        I’m with you. I will flush, get some TP, flush again and quickly while the bowl is refilling I can manage a quick swipe with the TP before the water reaches the offending area. No submerging hands in water necessary.

        We have one of the weirdest shaped toilets at my office. (Single room/single sex bathroom) It’s like they were trying emulate the inspection shelf idea without fully committing to it. Poo lands on a shallow part, so it often takes more than one flush to remove, if your aim with the used TP isn’t dead center it also gets stuck to the sides or the front. It is honestly the worst toilet I’ve ever used. I have never had any of these same problems outside of this particular bathroom.

        1. Specialk9*

          That sounds like awful toilet design, like they thought it was a poop display and washing receptacle rather than a toilet!

      7. HRperson*

        This is crazytown advice to me. I would never, ever stick my hand in the toilet of a public bathroom. I don’t care what’s in there.

      8. artgirl*

        i think this is a rare opinion. please let’s not make people self conscious about even MORE things that people are likely usually not judging them for.

        1. Lissa*

          Yeah really..I think most people are not going to judge you! Just give a double or even triple flush, that’ll deal with the majority of the problem and not leave it particularly horrible. I wonder if maybe people are picturing different things though, not to get too disgusting.

      9. Anony*

        Hard disagree. That is completely unreasonable and unsanitary. They need to touch the stall door, faucet and soap after sticking their hand in the toilet, and I doubt they have disinfectant to spray around. I would far prefer to find skid marks than have someone touch the sink after that.

      10. Anon For This*

        I’m with you, Ramona Flowers. My method is to take a sheet of TP (like 3 pieces still together) stick one end into the water, drop onto the mark before the water reaches my hand (eek!), let it quickly soak (10 secs), then flush. Most will be eliminated. If not, then I wad up some TP, give a quick swipe down the skid mark to the water line, then drop. No hands in toilet water, no extra flushing, and no marks.

      11. TL -*

        Oh, no, that’s completely unnecessary (and really horrifying, at least by USA social norms)!
        The marks will disappear after a few people use the toilet anyways and if you’ve truly got something unusually sticky going on, the janitorial staff will scrub the toilet daily.

        I would just not worry about it or bring in a cheap toilet brush if it’s bugging you that much. But we all use a toilet bowel for the same reason and it is a contained space, so small marks are perfectly normal. (just as long as they don’t build up.)

    9. Allison*

      It’s not something I worry about, and it’s no something that bothers me when I see it. I pretty much figure it’s gonna disappear over the next hour or so. The water will break it down, subsequent flushes will wear it away. If the office wanted me to scrub it away myself, they’d provide a brush.

    10. Millennial Lawyer*

      I’m assuming your office has maintenance workers that clean the toilets at least once a day? If so, don’t worry about it! Try to flush once or twice more but if that doesn’t make a difference, people should be aware that people poop in the office and be mature about it. As long as it’s cleaned up by the end of the day by actual maintenance workers, you’re doing all you’re supposed to do.

      1. Thlayli*

        I’ve actually worked cleaning toilets, and this is not very nice to do. Maintenance workers don’t want to have to look at your poo any more than anyone else does.

        If a toilet brush is provided, give a little scrub, and flush again. Takes 30 seconds and leaves toilet nice for the next person.

        If no toilet brush Is provided there not much you can do.

        If someone else has left poo before you, feel free to ignore. You shouldn’t have to clean up someone else’s poo.

        1. Specialk9*

          I’ve worked cleaning toilets too, and I think that seeing poo when cleaning toilets is just simply part of the job. I mean, someone pooing on the seat or floor is way uncool, but poop in a toilet is totally something I was prepared for when I took that job.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Kind of candid advice but I have found it helpful: Sit forward more, don’t sit all the way back. Change your aim to where the deeper water is. (Thank you nasty intestinal virus for showing me this. Thanks so much.)

    12. Sparkly Librarian*

      From the office pooper threads, I got the idea of first placing a toilet seat cover inside the bowl. It prevents marks from being left behind, and is intended to be flushed. At my workplace, it’s very likely that the next person to use the bathroom will know who was in there last, and I feel a lot more comfortable knowing I’ve left it clean.

    14. Thlayli*

      It’s nice if you leave the toilet in the state you found it. If there is a toilet brush there, give it a little scrub and flush again.

      1. nonegiven*

        I have never seen a brush in a public or business’s bathroom. I have never seen a brush in a bathroom that wasn’t in someone’s house.

        1. Thlayli*

          Yeah apparently this is not a thing in America. Which is probably why there are so many letters on here about gross toilets.

          1. TL -*

            I don’t think there’s ever been a letter about marks in the toilets – smells sure, office seats where you can hear everything, at least one where somebody was deliberately smearing things (shudder), a few oddball ones like the woman patrolling for ‘the office pooper’, and one or two where there was no cleaning service* so the cleanliness of the bathrooms was an issue (because high traffic bathrooms need to be cleaned by a professional cleaning service.)

            But I can’t recall a letter where the bathroom situation was a) the bathroom was gross and b) there was a professional cleaner attending to it. I really don’t think having a toilet brush makes any difference in terms of long-term grime; it might make a difference for the next person or two who uses it but any highly visible residue is going to be broken down/flushed away relatively quickly.

            *I think there was one where the cleaners came once a week or once a month and that was clearly not frequent enough for the amount of traffic the bathroom got? But I could also be remembering wrong.

    15. Your Weird Uncle*

      Haha, I love the love that toilet etiquette (toiletiquette?) gets on this blog.

      I have had good luck throwing in a few squares of toilet paper *before* I use it. Depending on where you notice the marks usually end up, if you aim for that section you should be good. Of course, it does waste a bit of TP, like you said, but I’d rather do that than leave behind something gross in the toilet. My two cents!

    16. valc2323*

      not useful advice to Anonymous Pooper, but a comment that fits in this thread: our restroom at work has four stalls, and the amount of water pressure in the flush depends on the stall. Stall one, closest to the main pipe, flushes everything with such force that it will usually spray you (and it’s auto-flush, so you can’t escape the stall and then gingerly reach back in with a foot to flush). The second stall is the goldilocks stall, just right. The third stall handles pee just fine but can’t flush a poop, or a seat cover, without multiple tries. I haven’t ever used the fourth one.

    18. Lizard*

      If you know you’re going #2, you can put a few pieces of TP in the bowl beforehand, letting it stick to the front of the bowl. This almost always does the trick to prevent skid marks. I think in a single stall shared bathroom that you should try to avoid skid marks as much as possible.

    19. Ron McDon*

      It’s fascinating to see the different responses from the UK vs the US!

      As it is common for toilet brushes to be beside toilets in the UK, it is less common for one to leave skid marks behind; one would clean them off before leaving. I would be pretty disgusted if I went into the toilet at work and saw someone hadn’t brushed their residue away! Who wants to look at that?!

      In the US it appears to not be a big deal if ones leaves marks behind. It’s just cultural differences.

      If I were the OP I’d buy brush to leave in there, but if you’re in the US it seems like this may appear a bit weird and unnecessary.

      1. TL -*

        I would say, from my recollections in the USA – and this isn’t something I paid a whole lot of attention to – it is actually pretty rare to see marks – you do see them but it’s not a daily or weekly occurrence and it’s more likely to happen in a super high traffic bathroom like an airport or a mall/movie theater. (which I’ve found to be equally gross as super high traffic bathrooms in other countries, so….)

        1. Specialk9*

          Yeah I really don’t see them much. But I also don’t think too much about them when I do. Like that book says, everyone poops.

  30. faces of the moose*

    How to motivate myself to get administrative tasks done?
    I have no problems with getting on with my core job, but I have such issues with procrastinating when it comes to admin stuff – paperwork, sorting out issues with IT (that don’t hinder work but needs to be done), record-keeping (timesheets etc.). None of these are terribly time-consuming, but I just /hate/ them so much I keep putting it off until I can’t anymore. Then it feels overwhelming. ARGH.

    1. Queen of the File*

      I’ve had some success scheduling myself an “admin party hour” every week. It at least saves it from invading my brain space the rest of the time.

      1. Cajun2core*

        I agree completely with “Queen of the File”. I have done that in the past with certain task I did not like. Sometimes it is an hour per day/two days/week and sometimes it is a 1/2 or even a whole day per week, whichever works best for you. For me, once I did it at the end of the day when my brain was already all used up. I have also done it at the start of the day to “wake up” my brain.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I do this method at home and at work.
      I spend a chunk of time each morning and then a chunk of time each evening doing those repetitive tasks that must be done in order to support my processes.
      At home, before I leave in the morning I will get the laundry and/or dishes caught up.
      Then I get to work and I will get caught up on all my messages from different sources.
      Similarly at night, before I leave work, I refill things that are empty, line up what I need to start with tomorrow,etc.
      Then when I get home, I put the laundry/dishes away.

      The tasks vary a little as not everything needs to be done every day. But I look forward to that time, it’s like nap time for my brain. My brain can snooze/daydream/whatever while I plow through this stuff that is boring/repetitive/ a PITA. There is a relief when the task is completed, so you may be able to coax yourself through it by just focusing on how relieved you will be not having to think about that task for a short bit.

    3. Autumnheart*

      When you’re prioritizing your work for the day, do those things first before you do anything else. I also employ this strategy for non-work tasks—do the least enjoyable ones first. Then it’s done, you don’t have to dread it anymore and everything else is so much better in comparison!

    4. As Close As Breakfast*

      So, I have this problem with some tasks too, where I procrastinate and procrastinate and procrastinate and… you get it. Setting aside designated time doesn’t always work for me because, as mentioned, that time just ends up being me procrastinating on and on. The only trick I’ve come up with is to pair the designated time with some activity or task or whatever that I really, really like or want to do. It may be that I decide I can’t do thing B which is my favorite part of my job until horrible-thing-A is done. More often than not, I end up having to tie it to some sort of ‘outside’ of work item. Like, I’ll set my designated time for Thursdays at 11am, and then I’ll say “self, you’re going to go get you’re favorite thing for lunch from your favorite place. Yay! But NOT UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHED HORRIBLE-THING-A!!!” It still sometimes takes a while, but it usually works. I shift my thinking from ‘procrastinating from doing thing A’ to ‘keeping myself from wonderful favorite lunch!’ (or whatever)

    5. Thlayli*

      Schedule time in your calendar. A little daily, a bit more weekly, or a full day monthly – whatever suits. And then actually do it.

    6. Podcaster*

      I like to listen to podcasts, but a lot of my work is too complicated to have podcasts on in the background. I started to enjoy doing some of my administrative tasks more when I designated them as podcast tasks – it turns them into a bit of a treat. Plus there’s the aspect of a defined block of time, as previous posters mentioned.

      What I really have a hard time doing is something that requires an annoying phone call. I put those off forever, which is a problem.

  31. Kramerica Industries*

    I decided to go to my manager about my coworker who was creating a pretty toxic environment. The latest was that he flat out refused to do a task and said that it was my problem instead (we have similar roles so some tasks can go to either of us). My manager asked me if he was saying this as a coworker or jokingly saying this as a friend. I’m pretty peeved now because I feel like by being his friend, I enabled his terrible attitude. There have been instances in the past where he’ll lie and say he wasn’t trained so I have to do it, then pulls out the “you’re better so at X task so you should do it”.

    Other people have complained about his crappy attitude and lying too. It’s too bad my manager doesn’t see it, and instead promoted him. I don’t think I can leave either because I was also promoted, since I did a lot of extra work covering for what he was unable to do (and this was directly recognized by my manager).

    So, who’s got tips on how to deal? I’m saying SERENITY NOW to myself…but it might be insanity later.

    1. Observer*

      Firstly, you CAN leave, promotion or not.

      Secondly, your being his friend is not the reason for his attitude. Just don’t cut him slack when he does these things to people. And when your boss asks you if he was “joking” or talking as a friend rather than a coworker just say no, he was serious and talking as a coworker.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Don’t cover for him. Push the work back on him. “Sorry, I can’t pick up X; I’m already working A, B, and C.” If he whines to manager (and he will), give your manager one of Alison’s scripts: “If I work on X, I’ll have to drop C. Does that suit the schedule?” If coworker claims lack of training, point to company SOP, YouTube, etc. Redirect, don’t accept.

      Let coworker fail. You concentrate on succeeding.

    3. WellRed*

      You did not enable his crappy attitude. Also, what’s up with your manager deflecting you (“was it a joke?” the fact you brought it up should be answer enough).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is not your friend. He’s a user. Sometimes people befriend others so they can dump off their workload. Don’t kick yourself. It is possible that he deliberately duped you and he was aware of the head game from the get-g0.

      1) Tell the people who are complaining about this guy to talk to your boss with their complaints.
      2) Tell them that they need to tell this guy NO.
      3)For yourself, have a response prepared for his usual push back comments. Ex: With the “you are so much better at it” comment, tell him, “And now you will be, too. Here you go, it’s yours!”
      4) Make a list of tasks he refuses to do. You can ask him which ones he will take, if you wish. Or you can just say that you cannot do all these tasks yourself and you are going to ask the boss to force assign them in order to distribute the work evenly between the two of you.

      I worked with a dude like this, it never got better. He was in his own zone and seemed totally unaware how inappropriate he was. Eventually he quit. It was a long road to get to that point.

    5. Kramerica Industries*

      In our new roles, she says we won’t have to work as closely together so he shouldn’t be able to pass work onto me. I’m just super bothered that my coworkers and I have complained about his attitude, but my manager doesn’t see it. You like to think that these people will eventually move on, not get promoted.

      1. MissGirl*

        Your manager sees it but doesn’t care. Some managers refuse to manage. He told you that when he asked if he said it as a friend.

    6. Anony*

      You need to have a broader conversation with your manager. It is not about the one time he may or may not have been joking. It is a pattern of pushing his work onto you.

    7. Specialk9*

      “Oh, he’s not my friend. He tries to use me to do the work he doesn’t enjoy. Why would I be friends with such an unprofessional non-team player? You’re right that I’m professional in my interactions with him, but we’re not friends. However, even if we were friends, this is still a problem that I really need you to help find a solution to, because right now this isn’t working.”

      And stop, cold, doing friends things with him. Treat him with a mid-warm professionalism. Don’t get lunch or coffee with him unless part of a group. If asked why the change, tell him some version of a bald truth that you can manage. Let him connect his bad behavior, that has been professionally rewarded, with social consequences.

  32. ParalysedbyOverthought*

    I don’t know what to do, and I’m paralysed by overthinking this.
    An opportunity has arisen at my workplace for an internal secondment to a different department. It’s short term (less than a year), would be a phenomenal temporary(?) salary increase, and the closing date for application is next week (I’ve got <5 days).
    I’ve been “told” to apply by one of my colleagues who works in the other department, even though I meet barely half the must have requirements – mostly on the basis that, if we already had people within the company with all those qualifications, they would already be working in the department and they wouldn’t have to advertise for a secondment (I see his point). My colleague thinks my attitude to learn, and enthusiasm for the project would trump the lack of qualifications, especially since he would be training the secondment placement; and even his boss (who posted the advert) thinks I would be perfect for the role(!)
    The work is COMPLETELY different to what I currently do – think designing and building Teapots, rather than filing the paperwork for Saucepans – but is something I really find more interesting, more satisfying and have been teaching myself in my own time and at my own expense, because of said interest. I desperately don’t want to be a Saucepan filing clerk for the rest of my career.
    Unfortunately, the Saucepan filing department is already overworked and under resourced. We are getting a new member of staff next month, and it will be my job to train him, since I am the most knowledgeable and senior person in the team, and that will just about bring us up to the required staffing levels to cope. Our department head had to fight very hard to get the authority and budget to recruit and onboard a fifth team member. My boss relies HEAVILY on me; to the point of freely dumping responsibilities on me for almost everything short of actual personnel management and I just don’t know how she would cope if I applied and got accepted. She confides in me for all kinds of work and non-work related things, and occasionally even seeks my advice (I’m junior in years as well as paygrade, so this is often uncomfortable). She’s already worried that one of our team is already looking for other opportunities – I seriously believe she thinks I’m in no danger of going anywhere because I’m just so reliable and her go-to deputy.
    This is my big problem. I know companies are supposed to have things in place for when staff unexpectedly hand in their notice and leave, fall pregnant, get hit by a bus or whatever, but I won’t be leaving the company. In fact, the secondment will be partly designing and building Saucepans in addition to Teapots, so I would still have to work quite closely with my current team. Plus I don’t know what will happen once the secondment placement is up.
    What do I do? I want to apply, but I don’t know how to broach it with my boss. I don’t know how to reconcile leaving my current team in the lurch – especially since the new team member won’t receive full training if I go, and the rest of the team are still a little green and inexperienced and won’t have me there for support and guidance. I’d submit this as a proper request, but I sort of really need advice today (sorry Alison!), so I’ve got the weekend to write the application form.
    Help me AAM community – you’re my only hope!
    (for clarity – I'm in the UK)

    1. What-about-us*

      You’ve been told by the people who are running the secondment that you’d be great, and you want this ‘stretch’ role. Go for it. Write the application.
      If it makes you feel better when you’re back at your desk try and start writing some sort of handover document. You will also still be in the building so can offer advice, fire back quick emails if necessary, your team won’t be losing you from the company – which as you mention could have been a real possibility. I would also assume they can move arround timings if they hire you so that you can train the newcomers.
      As to what you do afterwards, I’m not sure. But the first step would be to apply – and perhaps ask that of your contacts? There is the possibility that you won’t get the role, so your castastophizing will have been for nothing, but equally if you don’t apply and don’t think your current role is for you you’re going to feel crappy once the deadline passes and you didn’t complete an application. Imagine going into work on Monday having missed the opportunity to be considered because you tied yourself in knots about the ‘what-ifs’ for your company.

    2. Nita*

      I think these things do work out. I was an essential field person in my department for a few years, very heavy workload, odd hours, if I were to get hit by a bus it would be a disaster, etc. I’d been mentioning to my boss for a while that we’re a bit short-handed and it would be nice if we had more staff, because we were at the point where had to start refusing new work. Things still stayed as they were for a while. And then I got pregnant, which meant I could no longer do some of the field work. It wasn’t the only thing that forced the decision of course, but it seems to have been one of the catalysts for hiring more staff. Now our department is twice the size it had been then, there is plenty of work for everyone, and I’ve been able to move into a role with more responsibility because for a few months, I had less field work on my plate and was able to manage projects more effectively.

      If you really want the new assignment, there are ways to make the transition easier on your current team – it’s not like you’re going to a different company! I’m sure things will work out though.

    3. Emily*

      I agree with What-about-us – you should apply! You’re interested in the position and have been encouraged to apply by people who know something about the role.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Most of your questions here are up to the bosses to figure out what to do. That maybe why you are struggling for answers. I do think that it is up to management to figure out how to fill in your team if you leave.
      Of everything you said here the question I would keep is asking them where do you go when the assignment is up. I think you can ask that question as part of the application/interview process.

      1. ParalysedbyOverthought*

        I think part of the reason I’m thinking about the management issues is because of how my boss often dumps management level problems on me to solve – everything short of performance reviews and approving expenses (although today I had to help her process her own expenses claim!), so I’m fully, based on past experience, expecting this to still be my problem to solve.

        I just don’t know *how* to tell her that I want to move on. I’ve worked under her for nearly a decade, and she’s mentioned previous “betrayals” before, “in confidence”. Ugh. Honestly, this really is more about her than me, but that’s the way it’s always been, in every conversation and every situation.

        But I am right in the midde of writing a draft cover letter, ready for Monday. Wish me luck!

        2. Specialk9*

          You’re dealing with a manipulative boss. Read up on that and read up on setting and defending reasonable boundaries. It’s hard, but once you learn how to set boundaries, it is liberating and pays dividends across all aspects of your life.

          Put it this way – is she being reasonable? No. And in response you are bending and contorting yourself. So what happens if you stand firm? The answer is that the world flows around you in your new position of strength. Seems impossible until you see it. Best of luck!

    5. Thlayli*

      Apply apply apply!

      If you don’t you are basically saying that your career is less important than supporting your overworked department. And it’s not. Your career is what’s important to you. If your department is overworked that’s not your fault, that’s your boss’s problem not yours. You can’t put your career on hold indefinitely until your company finally sorts itself out!

      Also, if you really want to help out your boss, you can probably negotiate a staged transition, so for the first few months you could continue to train new staff member in old-department while doing newJob!

      1. Thlayli*

        Just read your comment upthread about how your boss is basically getting you to solve her problems. Definitely do NOT let her bully you into staying. Don’t put your career on hold to help out someone who isn’t even capable of doing her own job yet is earning more than you!

    6. Specialk9*

      So… In a nutshell, the company is having you do the work of a manager but not paying you as a manager. You are hesitating to advance your career because your manager has you do most of her job for you, and they haven’t staffed your dept enough to meet the need. And because you’re responsible and hard-working, you’re the main one giving a flip, rather than management.

      Put that baldly, the answer is pretty obvious, right?

      The reason you take on unpaid management work is to advance. You’re now being given the chance to advance, in a way you’re excited about. You are responsible for taking charge of your own decisions, and NOT responsible for the decisions of multiple layers of managers. If the company values the work, it’ll get staffed, or not; let the ones making the decisions deal with the consequences of their decisions.

      In other words, apply with a clear conscience! Help with transition, a reasonable amount, but free yourself from guilt or attachment to your old dept. You’ve got this, and it’s all due to your hard work to date. Enjoy the new challenges and growth opportunity!

  33. Snark*

    Well, it looks like there’s now some mixed messaging about whether our contract will be extended another year in April, and wether there will be a follow-on contract after that, and OH HELLO ANXIETY MY OLD FRIEND.

    So I guess I’m job-hunting. I’m also considering hanging out my own shingle to do contract environmental work, as a fallback/illusion of control over my destiny thing.

    1. Amadeo*

      I’ll share my seat on that job anxiety bus. Mine though will be alleviated or ratcheted up by the end of next week so I’ll be put out of my misery one way or another a lot sooner than you.

      1. Snark*

        I have no real reason to believe it’s not happening. It’s just….you can get real far down a rabbit hole in this business. It’s like in the cold war, trying to figure out which generals had been sent to the gulag based on the seating chart for Brezhnev’s May Day parade or whatever.

    3. Christmas Carol*

      May I suggest going to work as a writer for Stephen Colbert? I’m sure all of the AAM community will jump at the chance to provide a reference.

    5. Nita*

      I’m sorry to hear that, I hope the job hunt/own business thing works out. I’m in the environmental field, so if you’re on the east coast I can recommend some good firms…

  34. In need of Pep*

    Any one have some solutions to major self doubt? I think been selling myself short for a long time, which is kind of a viscious circle, as my experience is ‘lesser’ which makes me feel like I can’t apply for the next step-up.

    Anyone broken this circle, or used varying admin experiences to break into different fields?

    Or got any tips on how to break paralysing self-doubt, it gets so bad I don’t apply for anything which leaves me longer out of work/stuck in bad situations etc…

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, aka CBT helps with this. If you can’t find/afford a good therapist, I can recommend a good book: Feeling Good – The New Mood Therapy by Dr David Burns. It works. I suffer from depression and anxiety and working through the exercises in this book pulled me out of the pit of despair. It’s all about reprogramming yourself to not get into that trap of piling doubt on your head.

      Good luck!

      1. In need of Pep*

        I actually have that book – haven’t looked at it for a while or considered it for this. Will take another look – thank you :)

    2. Cajun2core*

      The best thing to do is to find something you do well and really excel at it.[1] Then put *all* (and I do mean *all*) of your available energy into it and really, really, really stand out and shine at it. Hopefully you will get some positive feedback from your boss, people around you, etc. which will boost your confidence. It can be a slow process but it worked for me.

      I was lucky that I got a job that I ended up being really good at especially compared to my predecessor. I was known as “the miracle worker” by a couple of my co-workers. I really earned my boss’s trust. For example, once our computer system went down and the Hewlett-Packard engineer came out to fix it. It was after hours and my boss told me she was leaving to go home. I told her that I didn’t think I could handle it by myself. She said that she had confidence in me and that I could call her if I needed (I didn’t). Another time, when there was a *major* computer catastrophe, I wanted to stay after hours to help her fix it. She stated that she needed someone who was competent and who she trusted to run the department during the day. These types of compliments and others over a couple of years significantly increased by confidence and self-esteem.

      I know that I was very lucky to find this kind of job and I hope that you can be as lucky.

      [1]While it would be great if it were work related, it does not have to be.

    3. June*

      Read the book “You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life” by
      Jen Sincero. It’s life changing!

  35. MegPie*

    We had a round of layoffs yesterday. I’m fine but I lost several friends. We’re a small company and I’m so angry that we didn’t try to hang on to them longer. I know there’s nothing I can do about this, and I know it probably would have happened even if we had waited. How do I stop being angry with the guys in charge? I think I’m taking this too personally.

    1. Snark*

      You’re taking this too personally – as you say, it likely would have happened if they’d waited. And do you know they didn’t already wait until they were absolutely sure they had to fire them?

    2. ThatGirl*

      Layoffs suck. I was laid off last March along with 14 other people who were in the middle of projects, working hard, had given a lot of time and energy and effort to the company. I still think it was a bad move for the company, but I understand why they did it.

      While I certainly went through the whole “is this really happening, this is nuts, that was a terrible idea” phases, in the long run, I’m better off. These decisions are rarely made lightly, and it’s not a reflection on the good people who were let go. Everyone I’d worked with before thought I was awesome at my job. But the company decided that job didn’t need doing anymore. Support your laid-off former coworkers if you can, but try to let go of the anger at the company.

    3. Natalie*

      I’m so angry that we didn’t try to hang on to them longer.

      One thing to keep in mind is that keeping people a “little while” longer doesn’t really help them all that much – at the end of the day, getting laid off in January or getting laid off in March both suck. But it can be pretty bad for the business as a whole, including everyone else who works there. If the business is having financial problems, keeping people around for a few months just to lay them off later means literally wasting money. And behind the scenes, sometimes in order to get funding to keep operating (whether that’s venture capital or a loan) you have to tighten up your operating budget.

      If it wasn’t a financial reason and, say, a division was closed and everyone laid off, hopefully they were generous with severance. But again, if you don’t manufacture widgets anymore there’s no reason to keep your widget makers on. It’s a business, it employs people to do something specific for the business.

    4. Cajun2core*

      I have been there and done that. I was one of the ones laid-off. The only thing that helped was really thinking and realizing and concentrating on that they did what they had to do. If they hadn’t the entire company would have gone under and everyone would have been laid-off. It took some time, I eventually got over my anger.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I hate this stuff when it happens. I guess it boils down to, if I don’t build paths through the anger then I will work myself right out of a job, too. Nothing like anger to kill a job.
      So look around. Are other things about the job okay? Or is this on the heals of a bunch of toxic crap that was going on anyway?
      What about yourself, prior to the layoffs were you content to stay or had you started thinking about moving on? This is a good question because it makes me think about the overall picture.
      Is there something practical and supportive you can do for your friends who have left? (That won’t violate company policies and practices.)

    6. Specialk9*

      I am going through this now. Well, I was laid off and a bunch of incredible workers – I landed in a new position, but it’s a big change and a bit to process emotionally. It’s especially hard when people you know get laid off with a handful of weeks of severance, and CEOs get dozens of millions when they leave.

      Personally, I try to detach my loyalty from the company, and reserve it for people. Companies are things, like coffee mugs and paper bags – they are incapable of loyalty. Executives who make layoff decisions aren’t doing it for funsies, they need to cut costs to keep operating or to meet the goals that keep investors investing – ie giving us money. (Though you may notice, as I am, cases of ‘you’re spending money on THIS but laying people off?!’) So I work hard at detaching from the idea of loyalty from the company.

      What that means, in turn, is that I focus on me: pride in the quality of my work, on networking and promoting my personal brand in the industry, and on my career advancement.

      It may also be helpful to remember (in case you are using it as a yardstick for how things should be) that the much-nostalgicized 1950s, with lifelong employment at a factory and ability to buy a house, car, etc on that salary – were a wild anamoly in history (and the rest of the world wasn’t sharing in the boom even then). And that the opportunities were not available to women and many people of color.

      Good luck processing all the emotions.

  36. Sherm*

    What’s something appropriate to say to someone who is going on leave, but you don’t know why? I’m nearly certain it has nothing to do with a baby. I know there could be other positive reasons for a leave, such as an epic vacation, but I also know there’s a decent chance it’s a serious matter. I feel that it presumes/intrudes too much to express concern or wish that all goes well, but it’s too callous to say nothing or “See ya when you get back.” (In my case, the leave-taker actually works for another company, but we work together on a project.)

    3. Someone else*

      If I were the leave-taker, I’d be not only fine with, but probably more comfortable if you didn’t say anything in particular. I realize no everyone would feel that way (especially depending on why they’re leaving), but it’s a perspective worth considering.

  37. mental health anon*

    So, an update. I had posted late in the day last open thread, so to recap — The output and quality of my work has slipped, the bosses have noticed, and they are the opposite of thrilled. For a yearish I’ve been tapering off cymbalta, but more recently stepped down a dose, which entails opening up capsules and counting beads since it is the lowest dose the drugmakers make. The last monthish has been hellish with headaches, brain fog, jetlag-level exhaustion, nausea, vomiting. Haven’t been very productive with my work. I spoke with my supervisor again and shared that I’ve been struggling with getting off of a med and it has affected my ability to produce good work. My supervisor asked me if I think that it is possible for me to commit to 8 hours of work a day, which I affirmed. He also mentioned other options, such as me stepping down to part-time or taking a leave (company is too small for FMLA) but did not expand further. I have spoken with my doc and have gone back up in dosage on the med for now. I will try tapering down in a few weeks at a more incremental level, but this is not an exact science, as my doc says. I am worried about losing my job.

    1. Lumen*

      Please don’t add to your troubles by worrying too much. It sounds like you are consulting with your doctor (good!) and adjusting your dosage as necessary (good!) and being direct with your supervisor (good!) who seems open to working with you to make sure you can both take care of your health and be productive at work (good!).

      You are doing what you can for your health and your workplace. Be honest with yourself, too, about how much you can commit to while you’re struggling with medication adjustments. If you need to work 6 hours a day, talk to your boss about that. Reaffirm that you want to work and produce better quality work, and that this is also a temporary situation.

      I have the best of hopes for you.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Perhaps you can find out about some vitamins and minerals that would work in a supportive roll as you reduce the dosage of your med.

    3. o.b.*

      Honestly, no advice, just commiseration—Cymbalta withdrawal is hellish. SSRI/SNRI withdrawal is *so* uniquely hellish that they coined a new term (brain zaps) to describe an experience that you really don’t get from anything else. (Also, I can’t believe you have to count the tiny beads!!! I just never considered that.) Good luck, and my best wishes

      1. o.b.*

        Actually, a little advice—which it’s not clear if you need, but which is always good to hear: be kind to yourself, and don’t push yourself beyond your capabilities. That you’ve kept a job for a year while tapering is astounding to me. If I miss a dose I get the first withdrawal symptoms within a couple hours, and I can’t imagine having full withdrawal for a year and still functioning. Whatever you’re capable of, it is enough and you are doing awesome.

    4. Sled Dog Mama*

      I’m also on Cymbalta, and yeah the withdrawal symptoms are hellish. You have my heart felt sympathies.
      I’ve been working on getting off for about two years and one thing my doctor has done is stepping down a dose and staying at that dose for an extended period which has seemed to help by giving my body and brain more time to get used to the lower dose. It sounds like your doctor is doing that so hopefully it will help you. I also recall my doctor mentioning that there was a liquid form available which was specifically for making lower doses than come in the capsules easier, it might not be available any longer but it might be worth checking out.
      Good luck getting off! I probably won’t ever get off because I take it to prevent migraines (it’s the best of the 12 medication combinations I’ve been on in the last 10 years) and I’ve been stuck at this dose for a while but everytime I try to make the next step my migraines come back full force and debilitating.

  38. Amadeo*

    Sigh. I don’t know that there’s really much advice that anyone would be able to offer me, but the governor in the state that I work has been busy plucking away at the state’s higher education allocation and our little university is undergoing some massive re-orgs to make up the (rather large, for this institution) shortfall. It was handed down earlier this month that this will include the elimination of 20-25 currently filled staff positions. And no one will know until next week if they’re one of those few people out of about 800. Folks affected will have 5 months (end of the fiscal year) notice.

    So, I mean, all things considered my odds are pretty good, but I am still anxious and uncomfortable and I am so tired of job searching. I will have been here 2 years in June and would like to go a while longer yet before considering moving on. There’s not much I can do about it right now, so I have to just wait and try not to worry too much.

    I guess I just felt the need to vent a little bit (and I would not be sad if the embattled governor was eventually made to resign, either).

    1. Specialk9*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. A lot of us are facing layoffs now, or have been laid off, so full sympathy here!

      Are there constructive ways to channel your amped up energy?

      I posted above a list of my layoff prep wallet-card, and ways I have been building my career in anticipation of layoffs. Search for specialk9.

  39. friday fran*

    What’s the typical etiquette around noticing that the boss is snoring hard in their office after lunch? I mean, I’m not about to hand them a brochure for the sleep study clinic, but do we try to be quiet or make enough noise to let them wake up before they get caught? Do we put calls through? And what if a visitor arrives?

    1. Snark*

      I don’t think anybody should be tiptoeing around being quiet; if they wake up, that’s their problem. And I think putting calls through is also acceptable. The presumption is that they’re awake and ready to do their job, not snoring on a salary.

      And like you said – yeah, they might have a sleep disorder or a blood sugar issue or whatever, and that is so very not your business or responsibility.

      1. Emi.*

        If a visitor arrives, though, can you call the boss or knock on his/her door and say “Dr. Jordan is here to see you” instead of letting the visitor wake him/her?

        1. Snark*

          Yeah, just because I think sending the visitor back to a sleeping person would reflect really badly on the entire org, not just on him.

      2. As Close As Breakfast*

        For some (inexplicable?) reason, I think Snoring on a Salary is a fantastic band name. It tickles me!

    2. Just Peachy*

      I had a coworker who would eat lunch in an empty cube, and frequently start snoring. No one else was close enough to hear, but he was a generally good employee who I didn’t want to get caught, so I would just cough loudly. It would almost always wake him up. Can you walk by his desk and cough? Some might say that sounds silly, but it’s the least confrontational way to wake him up without embarrassing him, or calling him our (especially since he’s your boss.)

    3. AwkwardestTurtle*

      I would say unless he specifically asks you to let him sleep it’s fine to politely disturb him. But it depends on the boss.

      I have a colleague who naps, but tries to be secretive about it. I called him out on it once and after getting defensive and calling it his “break” he told me a story about his old receptionist who he later fired who told people who called that he was “meditating.” So if you do turn people away just say boss is “unavailable”

  40. Karen*

    I’ve been working through the personal mba (https://personalmba.com) in an attempt at professional development. It’s basically a reading list that is intended to teach you what you would learn by actually working through an MBA. The author mentions that this is something that can be put on a resume, but I’m a bit skeptical. Can anyone tell me whether it would be appropriate to include this on a resume?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I wouldn’t. There is no accredited authority verifying that you have completed any coursework, actually learned anything from it, or can apply whatever you have learned from it to real world situations. It’s great that you’re utilizing it for your own development, but it doesn’t rise to the level of resume-worthiness.

      1. Artemesia*

        It is the sort of thing you could mention in an interview if the issue of a particular skill came up e.g. reading financial reports or something. You don’t have coursework or experience but you did a self study on this; it can come up casually in interview conversation whether for the skill or as a discussion of how you upgrade your own skills routinely as you need them. But not on. a resume.

    2. Graciosa*

      I really wouldn’t.

      You’re putting on your resume something that means you read books? I already assume applicants are literate, and there is nothing in merely reading to show that you have any specific skills or experience (as opposed to curiosity and a desire to learn).

      What will be helpful is if the learning you acquire can be used appropriately during the interview. You don’t want to force this too much, though. For example, if you ask me what our EBITDA is, I can’t tell you – it’s not the financial metric we manage to or talk about. For my field (not accounting!), I might wonder if you just looked up a term to ask about without really being familiar with how companies in our industry are managed, which could backfire.

      On the other hand, if you asked me how we track our financial performance, what I think the outlook is for our industry, or how we’re adjusting our performance to account for current trends, I can tell you a lot. The material you learn from your reading may help you understand my answer better, or ask more insightful follow up questions. I think that would be the place where this could help you.

      If you don’t treat it like an MBA (reading is not equivalent to taking the classes, doing the team projects, and getting graded) but mentioned that you had been reading about X to try to better understand it, I would find that impressive. Curiosity and a desire to learn is a strong positive – in contrast to assuming you know more than you do, which is not.

      Good luck.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      No. Think of it as any other reading you may have done for personal or professional development.

      From a hiring manager’s perspective, there’s no evidence that it has any value — unless that value shows up in your work, in which case that’s where you want to showcase it (e.g, as a bullet point under a job: “Launched new leadership program early and under budget” — you might know that you were able to do that because you read a book on project management, but the hiring manager only cares that you demonstrated that you can do it)

    5. Millennial Lawyer*

      I would not. Unfortunately the website is a marketing site and not anything that is accredited to say that you are actually learning what you would learn in business school. The author has his own self serving reasons about why he wants people to put it on a resume. I’m not saying this book may not be useful or helpful in your work (I haven’t read it) but reading it definitely does not mean you have completed MBA related coursework whatsover. It would come across as naive/hokey even if that’s not your intent.

      MAYBE: In the *interview* you could potentially mention books that you’ve been reading for your professional development and specific examples about how it takes your work to the next level. But list only books that have a good reputation in the industry – do your research. NOT this Personal MBA book.

    7. Thlayli*

      No. Reason being there is no test, so there’s no way to show whether you read all the books, understood them and can apply the principles in real life situations, or you skimmed through the books and didn’t understand any of it. Saying you read a bunch of books proves nothing.
      As others said, you can certainly mention in an interview or that you have read it and I guess you could even refer to the personal mba reading list, but you’re going to look silly if you say “I’ve got a personal mba” because that’s not a qualification.

  41. going anon today*

    Not really looking for advice, but I need to vent. I have a coworker who is the worst. She loves to moralize about certain things, and even if you snap at her to mind her own business and stop talking, she’ll keep on going. She’s been with the department forever and upper management (my manager, her manager, the department VP) love her and won’t do anything about it.

    She’s the type who loves to moralize about how you should ALWAYS adopt pets, but thinks adopting children is horrible because “you don’t know what you might get” and “biological children are miracles”. Or how people who rent apartments instead of buying a house/use public transit instead of learning to drive are lazy and irresponsible.

    But for the past week she’s been on a crusade to convince department management that employees with houses and children need higher bonuses and raises than those who are single and without children. Because married parents are more responsible and need the money more. AND THEN she went on and on about how she thinks people who are single and without children should be taxed double their current income tax rate because if they’re not doing their part to buy houses and have children, we should be giving back to society financially in another way. She does this every year and while management doesn’t go forward with the bonus structure she wants, they don’t really shut her down either.

    I already pay more in taxes than people with children and houses because I don’t get those deductions, but to claim that I owe it to the rest of my coworkers to make less money really ticks me off, and I’m in danger of losing my temper entirely. I don’t mind paying taxes to help schools or playgrounds or what have you, but I do not think I should be penalized any more because I don’t want (and can’t) afford a house or children. PEOPLE ARE THE WORST.

    1. faces of the moose*

      People with no children should…pay more taxes? Surely it should be the other way around? The world is not short on human beings right now as far as I can tell…

      I’m confused about the reasoning behind how renting/taking public transit is lazy and/or irresponsible. I can’t think of any correlation……

      1. Morning Glory*

        I’ve heard people say the first one. Their logic seemed to be that their children would be the people working and thus funding my social security when I retire so I should be grateful to them.
        Interestingly, they are against immigrants coming to the U.S. to fund my social security when I retire.

        2. Artemesia*

          And if we keep this up it WILL have a huge impact on our future economy. The positive effects of immigration are quite well documented.

          I would think this kind of talk repeatedly in the workplace would stack up in the discrimination category. If a boss were saying this I would think HR would be concerned as those kinds of actions are discriminatory and open them to liability if acted on. Has anyone reported this dweeb for creating a hostile work environment based on marital status, gender, etc?

      2. going anon today*

        She never really goes into detail, but the gist I get is that by not buying a car or a house, it means people are immature and irresponsible because we don’t want to become “real adults” and have responsibility for ownership of such items. I’m in my early 30s and a millennial, she’s in her mid-50s and seems to be of the mindset that having cars, houses, and kids is what makes you an adult.

        We also work in a city with a lot of public transit where parking is difficult and expensive and HCOL area where people my age are being priced out, so it makes it that much more insufferable to listen to her rants.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She’s in her 50s? I wanna change decades. I thought you were going to say she was 80 years old or something. Gosh, that is such old, old, old thinking. I am embarrassed that people of my era talk this way, they KNOW better. But this just proves, people do not use the knowledge they have.

          I bet her parents taught her this crap.

          1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

            I’d put money on it being her parents, rather than a sweeping generational thing. My mother in law is 2 years older than my mum and 3 years younger than my dad, and her opinions on children, marriage, sexuality, morals etc., are closer to the 19th century, compared with my folks’ much more progressive views

          2. June*

            I agree that she is giving 50 year olds a bad name! I am 52 and think public transportation is amazing (wish I had it in my area). I didn’t buy my first house until I was 32 cause I was in the military (I was either provided base housing or moved too often to make it worth buying a house). Guess me having two kids and a husband AND defending my nation was not enough “adult-ing” for her.

    2. Thursday Next*

      Ugh, this sounds super annoying. It would drive *me* bonkers, and I am married with kids and a home. I can only imagine how it would feel if you were a part of the group she was maligning.

      If it’s any consolation, her opinions are such outliers that they just serve to make her look ridiculous. I don’t think you’re looking for tips on how to deal with her, but if you are, let us know.

    3. Justme, The OG*

      I have a kid and rent, I wonder what she would think of me?

      Also, your co-worker is the literal absolute worst.

      1. Specialk9*

        Exactly this comment. She’s an awful person

        Also, she’s stupid. People who own houses get government subsidies in the form of tax reduction. Renters don’t (except in some states, but we’re talking hugely different scale here). So renters pay more to taxes already.

        People who have kids get government subsidies in the form of tax reduction. So single people pay more to taxes already. Idiot.

        But seriously, this is creating a hostile work environment on several axes. Ageism (protected), classism (which isn’t protected, but is horrible), and you might say the anti-adoption rant is against people with medical conditions (not quite covered by ADA, but maybe HR might not realize that). This might not be a fight you want to take on, but if you do, log her rants and your requests that she stop, and talk to HR about your concerns re potential lawsuits. Sometimes the missing stairstep* gets worked around out of habit, until something happens to make it obviously a liability.

        *Pervocracy link to follow

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      There’s a time for “I hope you’re not saying that because you think I agree,” and this may be it.

      The rest of my opinion is unprintable. Ugh. UGH!

      1. going anon today*

        Oh, I’ve tried that and she knows I rent an apartment and don’t want (and can’t have) kids, so I think this may be her way of annoying me and some of my other coworkers over our life choices.

        2. Thlayli*

          She knows you can’t have kids and she’s going on about how children are miracles and adopting is wrong and people without kids should pay more taxes and get lower bonuses?

          Wow. Honestly I think that borders on bullying. I absolutely think you should take it to your boss and ask her to get this to stop!

    5. DCompliance*

      She thinks adopting children is horrible? I cannot imagine how many people she has offended with that line.

      1. baconeggandcheeseplease*

        I would probably just look at her and say, “Well I’m sure your parents didn’t know what they might get when they had you…” and then I would probably walk myself to HR, hah.

      2. Louise*

        And apparently queer couples who can’t have biological children just… don’t exist? Shouldn’t be parents? Should be financially and socially penalized for existing?

        Also I wonder if you could do a “We actually don’t know if anyone here might have been adopted—that could be an incredibly painful thing to hear if you were adopted.”

      3. Thlayli*

        I was at dinner once with a group and a woman there was talking about how she had a child from a one night stand and how she believes if you get pregnant “you should abort or keep the baby, not give it up for adoption”. And yes she was talking about what she believed people should do in general, not just what her personal preference was.

        One of my best friends is adopted. I found this incredibly offensive but I was pretty drunk and I knew I wouldn’t be able to hold my own in any argument so I just said nothing.

        Adoption shaming is also a thing, look it up. It’s an awful world we live in.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      So many people mistakenly believe that family and marital status discrimination is illegal (and actually it is in a few states) that you could take advantage of that and say, “Jane, what you’re discussing is actually illegal discrimination in many parts of the U.S. I don’t want to hear any more about this, and if you continue, I’m going to ask HR to speak with you.”

    7. What-about-us*

      Urgh wow that is an interesting argument. Wonder if you can use Alison’s patented – Wow, answer, perhaps even add that sounds pretty tone-deaf to people who can’t afford to either own a home or have children. If you feel so strongly about it perhaps you should write and speak to the head of departments, there is little anyone in this office can do about it, and as far as I’m aware no one who supports you.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My first response to reading this was, “Oh. F**k her.” I’m amazed you’ve kept your cool this long. One day, I would look her straight in the eye and tell her, “Other people’s finances are absolutely none of your business, and you’re making it really difficult for me to be pleasant to you, knowing how little you value my contribution to society. Please stop.” Then I would walk away.

      I mean, I wish I had the guts to do that.

    9. Muriel Heslop*

      Your coworker is the worst (and I like almost everyone.) She makes me want to come out of my skin. The poor reasoning skills, the selfishness, the small-minded thinking. You have my heartfelt empathy, OP. Good luck with this! Here’s hoping 2018 is the year management shuts her down!

    11. ginkgo*

      OMG. I’m a millennial who desperately wants to own a home and have children, and is hustling to be able to afford it someday. I would… not respond well to this. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO SAVE UP FOR A HOME IF YOU WANT TO PENALIZE ME FOR NOT HAVING ONE?!

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        +1000 to this response. I would actually recommend saying that to her, perhaps with a few choce comments about how, given the rising housing costs, perhaps those we haven’t yet been able to afford a house should get a BIGGER bonus so that someday they would be able to?

    12. WellRed*

      Isn’t the world getting overpopulated (in general, I realize some areas are suffering underpopulation)? I think those of us who don’t have children are contributing in our own way. Same with the car thing. Honestly, I probably would have screamed off a laundry list of things at her by now (homeowners get tax breaks! children are deductible! cars pollute! the 1950s are over! you suck you moralistic, sanctimonius b.!)

    13. zora*

      She is an Actual Garbage Person. I am so sorry you have to work with her.

      I think my only advice at this point would be that you are getting frustrated, but there’s no way to make her stop. So, maybe you could try the “anthropologist” technique? Where you pretend she is a strange species, and you are the scientist observing her. And/or reframe this, because she must be a pretty miserable person inside to be this focused on other people and their choices. So, try to change your reaction to pity.

    16. Kate*

      She sounds SO far in left field that maybe it would be a helpful exercise to pretend like she’s a new species you are observing. Like ah, this is how the moralizing whackadoo behaves in the wild.

      I’ve used a similar approach for people with terrible beliefs and/or behavior who I have no control over. (Obviously you’d take a different approach if she were your boss or subordinate.)

    17. Not So NewReader*

      “you don’t know what you might get”

      Well the same could be said of coworkers. But we continue to seek/maintain jobs now, don’t we?

      If you can’t come up with anything better, let her know that she already told you that. This lays the ground work for telling her later “I know. You said that already. You are repeating yourself.” Or “We all have opinions on things but we keep our opinions to ourselves and focus on our work.”

      I might even eventually try, “Boy. You have a number of things you are angry about. I hope you find a way to calm down.”

      1. zora*

        ooooo, these are so much better than mine!!! I’ll have to remember these the next time I deal with an obnoxious rude person.

    18. Snark*

      I’m trying to come up with a script, but people like this are what the phrase “fuck you” was basically invented for.

    19. As Close As Breakfast*

      100% people are the worst! And jobs aren’t so high on the list either because they lead to dealing with the people!

  42. Zahra*

    Thank you everyone that gave me advice on what to do after a layoff!

    I’m happy to report that I got a lot of interviews this week, so I did get out of the house every day. Now that I have some free time during the week, I’m making a task list of things to do every day (update my job search spreadsheet, look for jobs, apply to jobs, learn Python, etc.).

    2. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      Yay, that’s awesome! I’m sure it’s all super helpful (because obviously), but if you’re using Allison’s interview guide, let us know the tips you found most useful!

  43. Shamy*

    I have decided to switch fields and go into nursing. I am in the midst of researching schools and am trying to figure out if I should consider a move out of state to do it. The main reason is that I live in the DC metro area with a very high cost of living. Has anyone made the decision to attend school elsewhere because of low cost of living? Did the higher tuition cancel out benefits?

    Adding an additional layer of difficulty is that my 4 year old has autism and I have another preteen. Many of these programs are so difficult, they advise you not to work during it, which means my fiance would be solely supporting us which he is fine with, but is there anything I am not considering? We are fairly open to anywhere and while our families are here, we don’t get any support from them, so that part makes no difference. Also if anyone has suggestions for areas with great autism resources and nursing programs, please throw them out there. Looking to start school next Fall, so a move next summer would be in order.

    1. Emmie*

      Congratulations! It’s a great field. Are you looking at post bachelorette nursing degrees, or are you staring anew?

      1. Shamy*

        I decided to start with a BSN since I have a BS that fulfills most of the pre-reqs already. But I do want to eventually pursue a neonatal nurse practitioner credential. I’m looking at accelerated, but would be open to an ordinary 2nd degree 2 year programs as well.

        1. Emmie*

          A close family member attended an accelerated nursing program. It was a second bachelor’s degree program designed for those who already earned a bachelors degree. Here are some things to think about based on my family member’s experience:
          – Financial aid: Federal loans may be available, but the amount may be limited by what a person has used in their first bachelor’s program.
          – It has taken a few admittance cycles for my family member, and friends to get into nursing programs. I recommend you factor that into your move time if it is important to you.
          – Accelerated programs are incredibly demanding, as you may know. Is there a way for you to take some standard courses now that your degree does not fulfill?
          – Some schools offer a Masters in Nursing for students who are not nurses. It allows a person to take the NCLEX-RN and enter the field with a higher level of a degree. It may be worthwhile in looking at them, but I am not sure how it would fit in with your desire to be a NP. DePaul in Chicago has one of these programs.
          – Resident tuition: In-state tuition is usually cheaper. If there is a program, or a group of schools in one state that I found particularly interesting, I might move there, obtain work, get my family settled, and establish in-state residency for the cheaper cost. It might also help your youngest child become settled, which I’ve heard is an adjustment period for some kids with autism.
          – Clinical rotations: Schools will put nurses in rotations within a specific mile radius. If the radius is say, 60 miles, you should consider living close to the school. You could end up with a very long commute for one of your rotation if you lived far away from the school already.
          – Degree residency requirements: I mentioned earlier about taking some courses to ease your burden. You should check to see whether the school allows that. Some schools give admissions points for those that completed pre-requisites at their school. It favors current students. This may not be an issue for you, but you should check if you are interested.
          Gosh, that’s all I can think of for now. But, good luck! My family member is very happy in her career, and I wish you well!

          1. artgirl*

            Also state school systems have very different residency requirements to qualify for in-state tuition – some schools in Michigan are VERY onerous, while NY’s SUNY requirement is pretty generous, as a few examples.

            1. Shamy*

              Thank you both for your perspectives. I had not even considered the issue of where my clinical rotations might be located or that it might take a few tries to get into one although i suppose if that happens it would be extra time to live in the area and establish residency. I hope to not be delayed too much since I am already in my mid 30’s making this switch. Career changes are tough, but I have always been a late bloomer. I graduated at 30.

    2. Rilara*

      I moved out of state for grad school from Florida (pretty low COL) to Massachusetts (much higher COL). Although the high COL didn’t help my finances, the out of state tuition is much more difficult to navigate. Out of state tuition is about double the cost of in state. If your tuition is covered (or you somehow qualify for in state tuition) you should go for it, but it if not, any real financial benefits from the low COL will be swallowed by tuition.

      1. Shamy*

        That’s definitely a huge concern, I think I would only consider it if I found a school with comparable costs to one here. Although I have noticed some of the in state schools her have pretty high tuition compared to other schools in state tuition. I guess some things are relative.

      2. Specialk9*

        Are you sure? They’re talking about a 3 bedroom at least.

        According to Rebt Jungle, in the DC area, 1 br rent for $2012 a month on average and 2 br apartment rents average $2601. I couldn’t find data on 3 BR, but you’re looking at least $3,000. Times 12 months, that’s $36,000.

        In Sioux Falls SD, average rent for a 1 br apartment is $708 a month on average, 2 br $865. So let’s say 3 BR is around $950. Over a year that’s $11,400.

        $36,000 – $11,400 is $24,600 more to spend on tuition a year.

        The 4 year old might get into a special education preschool, or might need special daycare. Those costs are wildly lower with lower COL, though a lower tax base could mean lower services.

        Just looking at average daycare costs (looking at infant rates bc it’s what I can find – preschool would be lower but it’s still a useful SWAG)… Washington Post quotes average daycare in DC as $22,631 a year. Sioux Falls – and I’m not joking here – has an article from parents complaining about spending $5,200 a year on daycare. That’s a savings of $17,400 a year for moving out of DC.

        $25k on rent and $17k on daycare is $42k a year to spend on tuition. That’s a LOT of money.
        .

    3. Mm Hmm*

      Here some hospitals have their own, competitive, nursing programs. If you’re accepted it’s at no tuition cost to you (you pay for books, etc) & many students have part time jobs in the hospital. Many, if not most, of their graduates move right into full time RN jobs at the same hospital.

      Some community colleges have nursing programs, for both RNs & LPNs.

      A friend with a BA in social work did a one year RN program & loved it.

      Can you look at the NP programs you’d be interested in & what sets you up for success in them, & use that info to choose your initial program?

    4. Anon for This ;)*

      My husband and I moved from Southern California to Manhattan, Kansas for him to attend Kansas State University and it was totally worth it because the cost of living was about 1/3 of what it was in CA, the tuition as an out of state student was STILL lower than in state tuition in CA and we were able to live off of my salary so he could attend school full time.
      Fringe benefits, though I’m sure most state universities have these, but KState has multiple job fairs every year for students, both those seeking internships and seniors seeking full time work after graduation. These are SUCH a benefit. They have one university wide and then they have separate ones for each college(Engineering, etc.) Anyway, I mention that because my husband’s entire graduating class in his department all graduated with jobs waiting for them. Something like 120 students, all employed upon graduation. It was very cool.
      We both agree moving was the best decision we made, both in short term and long term, looking back at where we were and where we are now.

    5. Artemesia*

      I know that Vanderbilt has a masters program in nursing where those coming in are undergrads without nursing experience (presumably you in that you have completed a BA?) and working professionals upgrading. Nashville is a low COL area. I think it is a two year program. Vanderbilt has one of the best special ed programs in the country at Peabody college their school of Ed and Human Development and there are programs attached to that that your son might be eligible for like a pre-school with typical and atypical students. Don’t know precisely about autism but it is worth at least taking a look at the program and seeing if it made any sense for you.

  44. AnnaleighUK*

    Work this week has been painful after my cycling accident last weekend, and my colleagues have been really helpful doing stuff for me that I couldn’t do because of my bruises and general soreness. I was hurt more than I initially thought I was (cracked a rib as well as the sore shoulder and hip I posted about) so my boss has been great about letting me work shorter hours while my body heals up and skip off for doctors appointments.

    Just wanted to share how great my colleagues are! They can be a bunch of loons but when anyone is in trouble, they’ll help. I’m typing this as I’m working my way through one of the many protein bars my direct report gave me today to cheer me up cuz I can’t ride this weekend. Snacks and sympathy, they really are the greatest.

    3. Mimmy*

      Now this is the type of story I like to read (the awesome coworker part of course!) I think I remember reading about your accident last weekend. Wishing you a speedy recovery.

  45. AnotherAlison*

    Ugh. . .venting. This week has been up and down. To top it off, my work email was hacked & I was locked out for about 20 hrs.

    The other fun was my annual review, and getting a middling review. I wasn’t that frustrated by it when it was happening, but once I had time to think, I’m definitely frustrated. I did mention my 2 concerns/counter-opinions to my reviewer (who is not my org chart manager), and he is going to give that feedback to him, but I just got more annoyed by it over the past 24 hrs. 1.) My “results” were “meets expectations” when there is no criteria for what “results” are, and my actual results were top in the department by two key financial measures, and pretty good on “client satisfaction”, and 2.) my rating on self-direction was also “meets expectations” when the top rating said the employee is self-directed and ready for promotion. I already have a promotion coming up where I will be working remotely from all my management in another location, leading others, interfacing with clients, and self-directing. If I am not excellent at this, then maybe I’ll just stay here in my comfort zone since I’m clearly not good enough.

    Last thing was a rumor on a larger org structure change that I would not see as a positive in conjunction with this promotion. (Excited about working with someone specific, and now I’m not sure I would work with them.)

    Trying to remember what the “up” was this week. . .

    2. Specialk9*

      Annual reviews are infuriatingly inefficient. Most managers get intense pressure to push down results, or to meet certain quotas. But your top of the dept results should put you in that top percent even with quotas.

      I’ve found that as I go higher in the org, the expectations get higher too. When I was more junior, I was a rockstar. Now that I manage my own program, it’s like, yeah, that’s what we’re paying you to do. Which can be frustrating, but may also be context. You might focus more on the real stuff like promotion, and less on the theatre of performance reviews. (I have a hard time with that too, though.)

  46. Mongoose*

    Anyone with advice or a script for telling your boss that you’re starting a job search? I’ve outgrown my position and have taken on so many new responsibilities that my title, description, and salary don’t match what I do. There is no clear path to advance in my department, and new role would have to be created for me to keep me on. It’s extremely rare for that to happen at my workplace, so I need to look elsewhere if I am going to take the next step in my career. To complicate things, my boss left two months ago and although I’ve applied for that position, I’ve been told that I’m not being seriously considered (and that’s OK with me). I would like to tell our department head (two levels ahead of me) that I am going to start job searching. She’s well connected and could give me a good reference/connect me other opportunities that I may not be aware of at our company/in our industry. Plus, there is always the slim chance that faced with the possibility of my departure she’ll find some way to retain me. We have a good working relationship and I know she thinks I am valuable, but I have zero idea how to start this conversation.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh gosh yeah, don’t tell your boss! You’ll find yourself looking for a new job without the old job!

        And in general, trust your bosses WAY less than you’re doing now.

    2. grace*

      I wouldn’t necessarily bring up that you’re job searching, but I think it’s possible to see how she might feel about that in an oblique sort of way — if you have meetings with her regularly (so hopefully this wouldn’t look weird that you’re reaching out for one), then you could bring up the potential for advancement, what that might look like, etc. Depending on how that goes, it might give you a good idea of how open she would be to hearing you talk to her about job-hunting etc.

    3. Natalie*

      I wouldn’t! It’s high risk and the potential advantages you mention don’t seem guaranteed to me.

      But, you should definitely reach out to your old boss and tell her that your job searching. She is a perfect reference since she just left the org a couple of months ago, and who knows, maybe she’ll know of some opportunities. I’ve had old bosses recruit me for roles before.

  47. All Snout, No Kettle*

    So I had my performance review, and it went terrible. I’ve been with this company for 5+ years, a young woman, and I’m considered one of the best experts in my field. Our review process is semi-annually, and I had my last review last August, and it went great — there were no problems with either my skills or my behavior, and I was praised for being helpful.

    This time, however, the feedback completely blindsided me. I was told that some people sitting us have complained about me making unpleasant remarks about… I’m not exactly sure what, because they refused to tell me, quoting their right to maintain anonimity. I was completely shocked, because nobody had ever given me any negative feedback on my behaviour before, and it was quite stunning to hear that people cared enough to complain to our grandboss about it. I only had a minor accident quoted when I made a negative remark about a process we had decided to outsource during a meeting when the outsourcer was present.

    I tried to accept the feedback gracefully, but honestly I was quite hurt, and paranoid from then on. I consider most of people I sit with my work friends, and it was beyond strange for me to hear they complain about me, because we always seem to have a good relationship and they seek out my advice and company. I talked to a couple of them privately, to ask if they had any problems with my behaviour last year, and they also found this accusation strange and remember no incidents.

    How do I work with this? I’ve already had my bonus percentage lowered because of that, and this is the year of merit raises. I want to go back to the management for more clarification, because seriously, I don’t get what happened.

    1. LCL*

      This is really upsetting, I’m angry on your behalf. I don’t work in this kind of wage driven PE environment, so take the following with a grain of salt. I do write PE’s because it’s required of me, I have never rated someone lower because of a few negative remarks.
      Who rated you in August? Was it the same person who rated you this time? I would talk to that person(s) and see if you can find out what has changed. It SOUNDS like someone doesn’t like you, and unfortunately they have the rating manager’s ear. Watch what you tell your coworkers. You probably have some idea who the tattler is already.

      1. All Snout, No Kettle*

        These were indeed different managers (we sort of have two grandbosses), but the January one said he discussed it with the August one. I think I know who could it be, but January claimed it was a widespread belief that I’m unpleasant and negative, so I thought it couldn’t be just that one person (a low performer who loves ranting about immigrants and knows I’m not racist). I could theoretically appeal against my review, but it means making some serious waves, so i wouldn’t want to do that.

        1. WellRed*

          Oh, the vague “people” when it probably refers to one crank. If this impacts you financially I think their handling of this is totally unfair. And I know, “fair” is not really a concept to be used in business.

          1. Artemesia*

            This. Lazy managers inflate ‘an incident’ into many incidents and one whiner into many people. If she is politically crosswise with you then her whines could damage you. I would be inclined to indicate your concern that a colleague who is racist is angry and negative towards you because you aren’t.

        3. TL -*

          Oh, I had a boss who would say, “People have complained about X,” and when I would respond with, “Oh? I know Jack had a problem with X but we talked about it and I explained why X was that way”
          he would say, “This isn’t about Jack. Multiple people have complained about X [specific weird issue that I then went to talk to everyone in the group about and surprisingly, nobody but Jack had any complaints.]”

          Le sigh.

          1. Windchime*

            I had a boss like that, too. It’s crazy frustrating because she would say there are multiple complaints (but refuse to tell you what complaints) and there really isn’t anything I could do to prove a negative (that the complaints didn’t happen).

    2. Enough*

      “I’m not exactly sure what, because they refused to tell me, quoting their right to maintain anonimity.”

      This makes no sense to me. There’s a big difference between not knowing who complained and what they were complaining about. You don’t need to know the who but you do need to know the what.

      1. All Snout, No Kettle*

        They said it would identify these people, and that I shouldn’t worry about that, but about my perception in our department. I tried to say that I can’t exactly change a behaviour I don’t know about, especially since there are multiple people I thought I had an excellent relation with. I got an imaginary example of complaining about kettle tools we need for work being damaged, but it’s something we all do.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        You can’t fix what you don’t know about.

        Ask your boss point blank what specific things you need to fix. Show a willingness to fix those things.

        FWIW, your boss is afraid of his own shadow. He’s not much of a boss. All you can do is be sincere. I understand the feeling of paranoia too well. Understand that the situation was set up to MAKE you feel paranoid/insecure. Some bosses like their people on edge and worried.

      4. Earthwalker*

        I hate how 360 feedback seems to lead to that: “An anonymous coworker has a problem with your work but I don’t know anything about it so I just wrote that on your evaluation.” If I ran the world it would be like when a restaurant says “if we don’t give you a receipt your meal is free!” You should get a free “exceeds expectations on everything!” annual evaluation whenever you get vague and completely inactionable feedback. It might not be about you at all but could be some coworker with an attitude problem. Please, keep your head up and give yourself a huge pat on the back for taking it gracefully anyway.

    3. Seal*

      If your boss didn’t bring this to your attention when it happened, they suck. Telling you about something you may or may not have done well after the fact, especially without giving details, is at best unfair and says far more about them than it does about you.

      I was blindsided like this in a performance evaluation years ago. In my case, so much time had gone by that I had all but forgotten about the alleged incident, but according to my boss at the time it was bad enough to jeopardize our relationship with another department. Worse, there was nothing I could do to rectify the situation because I wasn’t exactly sure what the issue had been at the time. After that, I never took that supervisor or that job seriously again. Years later, I had an opportunity to work for that particular supervisor again at a different organization and turned it down. Who wants to work for a jerk like that?

    4. CatCat*

      “I’m not exactly sure what, because they refused to tell me, quoting their right to maintain anonimity. ”

      This is ridiculous because if you don’t know what you’ve done or said that is problematic, how can you correct it? And your pay’s been cut to boot.

      Honestly, I’d be looking for a new job. Blindsiding people with vague criticisms and cutting their pay is not cool. I’ve seen this kind of thing happen as preliminary steps to forcing someone out.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      Can you discuss it informally with your other grandboss? It sounds like he was in the loop. I might be inclined to fight this if it was drastically different than your previous appraisal and if this was the first time you’d heard about the issue. Both are red flags to me.

    6. Faith*

      Your boss sucks. Performance review absolutely should not be the first time for you to hear that you have a problem, particularly a problem big enough to cost you a portion of your bonus. That kind of communication should take place throughout the year, so that the feedback you are receiving can be timely and relevant, and you have a chance to correct your behavior immediately (assuming there is something that requires correction) without it turning into a pattern. Of course, your boss has not done any of that. He couldn’t even give you specific examples of your problematic behavior. And the whole concept of “worrying about your perception” at the office is kind of BS. That would be enough for me to start looking for a new job.

    7. rubyrose*

      This stinks!! Is there a place on that review where you can put comments?

      I had something a bit similar occur to me once. What I did was to put in the comment section of the review: “I asked for specifics and manager was not able to give me any. In the future, I request that these issues be pointed out to me immediately, rather than waiting for a performance review.”

      Funny how nothing was ever point out to me, and I never saw that type of unsupported statement on my reviews again.

    8. Thlayli*

      They docked your pay because of something you allegedly said, yet they won’t even tell you what it was you said? That… doesn’t sound legal.

  48. Teapot librarian*

    I have to have a conversation today with an employee with the message “I wouldn’t send work that looks like this to my boss, so you shouldn’t send it me.” I really need to get less anxious about these things!

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Quoth the employee: “I did what you asked for. I did MORE than what you asked for.”
      True. I asked for a list of names, you gave me names and email addresses. It was also completely unusable in the format that you gave it to me in.
      “It was formatted nicely” and so forth. “You didn’t tell me you wanted it in a certain format. If you wanted it in a certain format, you should have said so.”
      Fair enough. But I didn’t want it in any specific format. I expected it in a format that reflected that he is a professional who produces quality work. Not three pages of this:
      FirstName LastName (job); email@addressdotcom
      FirstName D. LastName (job) emil@workpla ce
      Name Name; job, other job email
      Rev. Dr. Honorable FirstName LastName (qualificatoins email
      And so forth, all typos here intentional to reflect the quality of his typing. Note also this was not all in the same typeface.

      “If you don’t think my work is quality, then you need to give me instructions for what is quality. Now I’m trying to actually get work done so if you wouldn’t mind…”

      1. Queen of the File*

        The email thing does sound like a yikes factor (nevermind the attitude), but in case this person somehow has other qualities that make him worth keeping, is it possible he really doesn’t understand what professional standards are for work? “Quality means, at a minimum, that your work contains no typos or other errors. When I ask for a list of x, I expect the items to be consistently formatted and accurate. I expect you to check your email at least once an hour.” etc.
        This might not be useful for a person who has had office jobs before, but if there’s a chance they are really out of their element, it miiiiiiight help. If they actually care about improving. And, if they don’t, you’ll have some pretty specific stuff to document I guess.

      2. Artemesia*

        And insubordinate to boot. I was early on spoiled with an assistant who helped me develop a new project with impeccable work. I could give her generally what I needed and off she would go to research it and then present it to me in clear, usable and well cited form. Then I got people who produced crap unless you held their hand. Some people have a thermostat set at ‘professional’ and their work comes to you as the best they can do and requires just tweaking from there; if they miss, they go back and fix it. And others turn in sloppy work because ‘you are going to rewrite it anyway’ and you end up having to do more work than if they hadn’t helped at all. I learned I had to assume a new assistant would be clueless and put more effort into training than my first one had lead me to believe.

        This guy needs to be clearly told that professional work is the norm. If no format is given then the format is not ‘whatever chicken scratchings cross his mind or can be cut and pasted’ but something well organized and consistent across entries. Sloppy unprofessional work is not acceptable. And never accept it. Send him back to do it again; every time you accept and rework this kind of crap you get more.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Also he hadn’t checked email yet today. “I don’t sit at my desk waiting for emails from you. I do other things.”

      1. Future Analyst*

        O_O
        Sorry you had to have THAT conversation. The email thing is… interesting. He doesn’t sound like a great fit.

          1. WellRed*

            The heck with his work. The attitude alone would having him in my firing sights (I realize this is easier said then done).

      2. Artemesia*

        This kind of comment is insubordinate and is unlikely to be made to a male boss. I hope you have this guy on the world’s shortest leash and are thinking about how to get rid of him.

  49. Overeducated*

    Here’s a wrinkle on the “can I back out of a job after accepting if I get a better offer?” question (I know the usual advice, and Alison’s on record, is that it is usually a bad idea.

    What if you told a hiring manager you would like to accept a verbal offer, but were told not to give notice until getting the official written offer from HR…and it’s been weeks* with no word from HR, in which time you interviewed for another job you’d like better? I guess the main question is what if I DO finally get that written offer from job 1 HR before I hear back from job 2 with their hiring decision in about 2 weeks. What counts as “accepting an offer”? When I hear from job 1, is there still time to contact job 2, let them know I’ve had another offer, and see if they are interested, or do I basically have to just return the paperwork to job 1 right away? (Job 1 is government, so there will be no negotiation, I know exactly what the salary and benefits are already, and that’s also why the hiring process is taking so long.)

    2. It's all Fun and Dev*

      You have not received the official written offer from Job 1, therefore you have not yet accepted the job. At this point you are in the final stages of their process, but nothing is certain and you have not committed to anything.

      I think if you receive the official offer for Job 1, you can certainly ask for a few days to consider (or a week, whatever is appropriate in your industry), and meanwhile reach out to Job 2 to let them know you have an offer in hand but would rather work with them. If they get back to you in that timeframe, great, you have your answer. If they say they aren’t ready to move the process along, you have to decide if you’d be relatively happy at Job 1 or if it’s worth taking the risk of turning down that offer.

      But don’t worry about backing out of an accepted offer, because you haven’t yet received an offer to accept.

      1. Overeducated*

        I guess my concern is that there’s nothing new to consider about Job 1, there will be no surprises or new info in the offer, and the hiring manager has been checking in with me about my continued interest as this has gone on, so it would seem like kind of a sudden reversal to say “hey I need time to think.” How would you express that to Job 1?

        1. CatCat*

          Why not contact Job #2 now and say you have another offer? Because you do, it’s just not in writing yet.

          1. Overeducated*

            This is what I’m wondering. A coworker said not to until I have a written offer because telling them early if I don’t have to could bias them against me. And it’s possible the written offer could be further away than it sounds like given how long this is taking….

            1. CatCat*

              “A coworker said not to until I have a written offer because telling them early if I don’t have to could bias them against me.”

              By “them”, do you mean Job #2? How would they even know that the offer is not in writing? I am having a hard time imagining why they would even care.

              If it matters, could always say, “I’ve been verbally offered another job and am expecting the written offer any day now, but [whatever you want to say about preferring job #2].”

              1. Overeducated*

                My coworker meant that job 2 might think I’m not as interested in their job, too complicated, etc., and would lean toward other candidates – that it would influence their decision making process. Or, since I was the first interviewee and they expect to take 2 weeks to finish, they might withdraw me from consideration. That’s why I’m torn on whether to write to the search committee chair at this point or wait until job 1 is more official.

                I think job 1 is on the move because HR is contacting me about paperwork details. That’s something, anyway!

                1. It's all Fun and Dev*

                  I don’t think you need to listen to your coworker. There is nothing wrong with factually stating that you have received a verbal offer from another company but Job 2 is your first choice, and is there any chance they’d be able to provide you an update within the next day or two (or whatever). This is very common, especially with highly qualified candidates. If they have any sense with their hiring, they won’t hold your other offer against you…and if they do, would you really want to work for people like that?

                  There are two possible outcomes from telling them you have a verbal offer: 1) They say they’re not willing to change their hiring process, in which case you’re in exactly the same position you are now, or 2) They’ll speed it up and give you an answer – whether it’s to make you an offer or to explain you’re not their top candidate. Either way, you’ll have more clarity as you consider Job 1’s offer!

    3. Struck by Lightning*

      If it is federal US government, only HR can do the official offers and even that couple day shutdown created a ton of extra work for HR people. IME in 3 agencies as both a hiring official & an applicant , it’s usually 2-3 weeks before HR gets the written offer out after the hiring official makes the verbal offer. It CAN be faster if the manager has a good relationship with HR or if you happen to land at a good time.

        1. Been There, Done That*

          Things are weird at ALL agencies right now! But seriously if it’s been more than 3 weeks since they made an offer and you don’t have anything in writing, I’d feel free to accept the other job offer. Honestly, it’s not at all uncommon for people to back out of accepting jobs with my last 3 agencies because it IS so slow. Most hiring officials don’t take it personally and won’t consider it a mark against you.

  50. AwkwardestTurtle*

    Has anyone used one planner for both home and work stuff (Passion Planner, Panda Planner, Bullet Journal, whatever)? Did you find it difficult to maintain work life balance?

    I’ve been trying this for a week and it hasn’t been too bad. I do think about work while I’m at home but honestly I was doing that a lot anyway. Now at least I have somewhere to organize my thoughts instead of stressing to try to remember them the next day.

    I asked a similar question last week, but I think I was caught up in the “passion” part of the passion planner and now I’m just wondering about work/life balance.

    1. Justme, The OG*

      I use a Passion Planner as a catch-all planner (work, school, kid, volunteering) and then a to-do list for just work stuff in a separate notebook. It works well for my needs. And honestly, I am going to think about home when at work and work when at home no matter what.

      1. AwkwardestTurtle*

        Yeah I think that’s the case for me too sadly. Although I think the more i try to fight it the worse it gets so maybe if i don’t try to separate them in my mind so much i’ll feel more relaxed about it?

        1. Justme, The OG*

          Possibly? Hopefully! The great thing about the PP (and planning in general) is that you can try something else if it doesn’t work.

    2. SparkyMcDragon*

      I do Bullet Journal for both Life and Work. On my dailies I divide into two separate areas life and work and list task under them. I find it a really good way to keep on top of projects. I don’t do any of the passion planner long-term life goals stuff, just the monthlies at the top of the month in Bullet Journal. The bullet journaling system just looks like you’re taking regular notes so its not like you’re showing up up in a work meeting with a journal covered in stickers or washi tape which to my mind doesn’t look super professional. I actually don’t use it at home that much. I just start my day at work list tasks from both and go back through my old tasks and move stuff forward. I only use it at home when I’ve got major life stuff to deal with like planning a wedding scale stuff, when I’m at home I don’t look at the work list. I will cop to doing some of the home tasks at work especially if they involve e-mail or phone stuff that needs to take place during regular business hours.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I tried and it just didn’t work for me. I actually don’t find the ‘put everything in one place’ approach works for me at all. I use Outlook for work as that’s where work happens whether I like it or not, a paper diary, and a list-making app for a bit of both work and home.

    4. Helpful*

      Take a look at Self Journal. It’s good for goal setting and tracking and you can use it in an integrated way to reflect work-you and personal-you.

    5. Lumen*

      I think I responded last week too, because I just luuuuuuuuuuuurve planners, but new thoughts:

      I do not use the same planners for work and home/self, because I like to keep them very separate. However, if you want all-in-one, maybe use different colored pens (or highlighters, or tick marks, or whatever). One for work, one for the rest of life. Or: one for long-term work projects, one for short-term work tasks, one for family, one for home, one for personal. Whatever works for you. But you can see at a glance if ‘purple’ is taking over your planner (and life).

      I do think that if it helps you be less stressed and more organized to plan work things at home, then don’t beat yourself up over it. The point is to… be less stressed and more organized. If you’re not following some prescribed “don’t think about work at home!!!” rule that doesn’t work for you, then you are just defeating yourself. So I hope it continues to work for you and make your life (and sleep) better.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        I second the color coding. Mine has color coding around the boxes to differentiate (but I always use black ink to write).

      2. AwkwardestTurtle*

        I love planners too! It’s usually just small thing like “crap I have to email hooziwhats” or “i totally forgot to send whatsherface that report!” … i’ve tried to have a strict separation in my brain but it’s just so hard. i think if i just let them be intertwined a little bit i’ll feel less stressed about work. usually i just try not to think about work all evening and then i lay down in be and my brain is like “OH YOU’RE RELAXED…REMEMBER THAT THING FROM WORK TODAY??!?!?!?” so maybe if i didn’t try to fight it so much I’d be more chill.

      3. Aleta*

        I use a Hobonichi, and I very very liberally color-code with highlighters. Green is Day Job, red is Art, orange is Study, yellow is stuff like eating/chores/funsies reading, blue is leaving the house stuff (errands, concerts, etc etc), and purple is goofing off.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      I use the Ink & Volt planner for both personal and professional stuff. I’ve been trying to color code with different color pens so I can clearly see the difference between work/volunteer/home stuff. I’m still honing the system, but it’s working well so far. I find that I’m thinking about personal stuff at work and vice versa anyway, so I might as well make a note that I need to replace the batteries in the smoke alarm now, while I’m thinking about it.

      I do keep a separate to-do list for work that’s the more small-scale items. I’ll put a focus or top three goals for each day in my planner, but the checklist lives in a notebook next to my computer. I don’t bring that home or mix it with personal stuff.

      1. baconeggandcheeseplease*

        How are you liking Ink and Volt? I just started using a Panda planner, but I’m thinking of making a switch after I’m done with this one.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          This is my second year using it, and I really like it. I don’t really do the weekly/monthly reflection questions that much, but the monthly challenges and weekly/monthly goals work well for me. It is pretty expensive, but the cost and how nice the thing feels does keep me using it!

    7. EA in CA*

      I have two different planners combined together. I use the Happy Planner because all the cute accessories, stickers, and planner styles makes it much more enjoyable for me to use. I like pretty stuff and luckily, my office is pretty laid back on that kind of thing so I don’t have to be super duper professional looking 24/7 (the Front desk receptionist typically wears bright coloured lipsticks. Yesterday was green). I have a vertical style planner for work as much of my day consists of checking task off the list, where as my personal planner is a horizontal layout to mark down appointments, to dos, reminders, stuff for the kids, etc.

      Happy Planner is great because I can easily move pages around, and customize things on the fly to suit my needs.

    8. Aiani*

      I use a bullet journal for both work and home. It has worked really well for me. I’m not sure why it has worked really well for me other than I really love writing in notebooks and it gives me an excuse to buy lots of pens. All the pens!!!

      1. AwkwardestTurtle*

        OMG yes pens. I love the PaperMate InkJoy .7mm which I realized are rather popular among AAM readers when she had the open thread about necessary office items. What pens do you use??

    9. TL -*

      I do! I don’t use a planner when my life is regularly scheduled (so back when I had a 9-5 job, I just used outlook calendar and a notebook with to-do lists) but now that I’m a student and have a lot less structure in my time, I use one Erin Condren for everything (part time job, internship, personal stuff.)

      I don’t color code or anything like that. I do have a separate to-do list at work that stays at work (just a Word doc) that is more comprehensive than my planner. It doesn’t stress me out at all – if I’m looking at my planner, I’m trying to organize my time so knowing something is slotted for work is just a part of that.

    10. anonagain*

      I keep everything separate. I bring my planner to meetings and the person sitting next to me does not need to know when I’m doing laundry, going to the doctor, or doing job applications!

      I also store my planners for a year, because I don’t transfer everything to the computer.

      I think it all depends on how you work and how you plan. When I was a student I just used one planner. I don’t think there’s a universal perfect system, just whatever works well enough for you.

    11. Ren McFee*

      Try Inkwell Press. Terrific. I use the coil free Classic. Great space to balance work-life-health-spirit. Enjoy.

  51. Folklorist*

    It’s your not-so-weekly ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! Go out and do something you’ve been putting off then come back here and brag about it! (And then get lost in the Open Thread again because you’ll have earned it!)

    I’m going to edit some tedious articles and then call the student loan office. Uggggghhh.

    Have a productive Friday, everyone! :-D

    1. Interested Bystander*

      I filed my ugly piles of “CRAP” that I’ve been putting off for almost two months… That really didn’t need to be that hard or take that long.

      1. Folklorist*

        Hah! Good job! Now that you mention it, I have a couple of similar projects that have just become part of the landscape of my office(s). Thanks for making me notice them again…

    2. LPUK*

      In the UK, self-assessment tax forms for April 16-17 are due in by end of January, so I finally stirred myself to look up all my financial accounts and clarify what interest I’d been paid etc. With conscious virtue I sent this off to my accountant at the beginning of this week and finally crossed it off my to do list. Was somewhat deflated to receive a reply which stated, not only had I previously provided this information back in July 2017, but that the tax form had been submitted and that I had actually already paid the tax due. So not only had I actually managed to avoid my usual procrastination, i’d done it so long ago, I’d actually completely forgotten it

  52. Emi.*

    asking for a friend of a a friend: A coworker was badgering her for dates despite her repeatedly telling him to buzz off. She told their manager, and the next week when she called to find out her shifts they said she was fired. This is retaliation, right? My research tells me that her first step should be to file an EEOC complaint—is that correct?

      1. Emi.*

        Might a lawyer advise her to take other steps instead of or before the EEOC? Or coach her through the EEOC process, or what?

      2. fposte*

        Or both simultaneously. What she needs to keep in mind is that the window for filing with the EEOC is pretty tight–it may be as short as six months. So if it takes her a while to get around to calling lawyers or finding the right one she needs to be sure that isn’t shoving her past her filing deadline.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh yeah, retaliation city. Even if she was having discipline issues prior to this, the timing is still pretty obvious retaliation.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I’d think even if a different reason was given, the fact that it was right after she made a complaint of harassment would be cause to consider retaliation.

    6. Justme, The OG*

      Another person said but I will reiterate: even if they say it isn’t, the timing is way too suspect to be a coincidence. I will not quote you from the retaliation chapter in an EEOC law text I have on my desk, but your friend should definitely file a complaint.

    7. Bad Candidate*

      Yep. I work on insurance claims for these types of things. Start with the EEOC or the state version where she works if such a thing exists.

  53. the.kat*

    I did it!

    Thank you to all of the people who encouraged me last week as I prepared to put in my two-weeks notice. Everything went really well and I’m finishing up my time as best as I can. So far I’ve put together the first of two lists of projects and responsibilities. I’m also not stressing about it. I can only do what I can do. So, for everyone who was so encouraging last week, thank you.

  54. Lizzy*

    At what point is it considered ok / professional to have a 2-page resume? I’m 30, have been at my current company for 4 1/2 years, and have a good 3+ years of additional relevant experience (so 7+ years relevant experience overall). I’ve always forced a 1-page resume in the past, but am wondering if I can expand it more now that I have more experience. Thoughts??

    Also, I’ve seen many resumes in my line of work (I process memberships for an international organization) – some have education stuff at the top / beginning, some at the end. Usually, if a person has a 2-page resume, the education is at the end. I never did complete my bachelors, but do have both an AA and AS from a liberal arts school (a women’s college, not a JuCo, if it matters) – would it be better for me to list my education at the end?? I definitely feel like my experience shows more than my education level, but don’t want to seem pretentious by “hiding” my education at the end of my resume.

    Thanks!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I think you would be fine to do it now, assuming you are applying for experienced roles. The summary, skills, education, certification type stuff can take up almost a page for a lot of people. The flip side is that I interview people with 15-30 yrs experience who have two-page resumes, too. That early job that was 5 lines when you were 30 barely gets a mention when you’re 45. Whether you go with 2 pages or 1, I would just try to be succinct. I have a resume in front of me where the guy basically spent 3 lines saying he was a professional engineer. He could have done the same thing with a “,PE” after his name at the top.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        IIRC getting a PE distinction is an actual test though. Maybe. Not my field, just family members’.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Yes, he is applying for a management role in an engineering firm, so it needed to be mentioned, but it didn’t need the real estate that he devoted. He had a line to list his active licenses, another line for his inactive licenses, and a line to say he was registered with the national clearinghouse for people who hold multiple state licenses. It was a lot of space used and didn’t really add anything that just saying “licensed engineer” in two words didn’t provide for this job. If he had been applying for a lead engineer position, I could see adding the detail.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Do you really need two pages? Is every line on there absolutely going to earn its keep?

      I’m in my late 30s, have had a significant career in one field, retrained, work in another field and can still get everything on one page if I really try.

      1. Lizzy*

        Honestly, I don’t know. I haven’t updated my resume since I took this (current) job, but will likely be updating in the near future (1 year?). I definitely do try to stay succinct, but I have a lot of accomplishments I want to be able to highlight while also being able to mention previous positions. Basically am wondering if I’m “ok” to go to 2-pages now or if it will look pretentious and holier-than-thou. I’m absolutely going to make sure every line earns its keep – I just wonder at what point 2 pages is necessary or relevant.

        1. zora*

          No, it won’t look pretentious at your age. If it is useful information that will help make your case, then go to the 2 pages.

        2. Llama Wrangler*

          7+ years of experience is right around when I bumped up from a 1 page to 2 page resume. But if you go onto the second page, the advice I heard was to make sure your second page is at least 1/2 full (without useless filler).

          It probably depends on industry but I think there are very few people who will rule you out for a 2 page resume (though I have encountered 1 hiring manager who thought everyone ever needed one page).

          As for your question about education, I have it at the top because I’m often applying for jobs that require the level of degree that I have (and because there’s an ivy league in there that I think gets some points, unfortunately), but I’m not sold that it’s necessary, and I think you could put your degree at the end without seeing a hit.

    3. nep*

      I reckon it depends on the industry / company. Have you got a contact within who might be able to give you an idea?
      Last week I watched a video of some experts with UNICEF. They were talking about many aspects of hiring and one of them said: “A one-page resume probably wouldn’t even get a look here.”
      (Good to know — says someone who has sent one-page resumes to UNICEF in the past.)

    4. anon for this*

      Yes, ugh. This is a person who has lied about, blackmailed, and threatened other employees, and has had at least one fired. He also gets almost no work done but makes sure to brag about every tiny thing he accomplishes. He disappears from the office without telling anybody for hours at a time, or just leaves with no warning. He also quit with zero notice over something really petty and then changed his mind and was reinstated at least once. He is a shameless brown-noser. What really infuriates me is that I’m pretty sure part of the reason he’s the boss’s golden child is that he’s one of very few men in the company and is interested in sports.

    5. Paquita*

      My coworker printed his resume the other day, on the WORK PRINTER :(
      He is ~25. It was THREE PAGES. His name was centered at the top in what looked to be 32 point font. In blue. Everyone knows he is looking to leave, but still.
      I think you are fine with two pages myself.

  55. Not Today Satan*

    Does/did your office have a toxic personality who, for whatever reason, is untouchable? (E.g. they brown-nose to the higher ups, so they don’t ever want to discipline them?) Have you ever been successful in changing this dynamic? I personally “manage” (I’m a powerless team lead) one of these right now, so similar perspectives to that would be especially helpful, but any experience would be interesting. It seems like everywhere I’ve worked there’s been a-holes who get away with everything while some nice, hard working people get hounded.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      For example: in the past month I’ve received three complaints about this staff member, two of which were regarding rude, insulting emails she sent (so I have them in writing). My boss’s response is to “have a talk with her.” This is 6 weeks after the staff member had a major issue of insubordination towards me. rme

    2. Anita-ita*

      Oh my gosssshhhh! YES! I don’t work there anymore but I have a fun story.

      So I got my first management job (I was 28 at the time) at a law firm being the office manager. I managed the legal secretaries and the administrative people. My first day there, my boss warned me about how one employee was awful and I quickly figured out who she was – let’s call her Kelly. Kelly was about twice my age and a legal secretary who supported a partner who made a ton of money for the firm and had a lot of top notch clients.

      She would come in at 11am, leave at her leisure, and everyone (including the Chief HR officer) hated her so much but could never fire her because the lawyer she supported loved her. She was a raging bitch and an awful, spiteful person. Anytime anyone asked her to do anything, she would go to the attorney and she wouldn’t have to do it. She needed to work a normal schedule like everyone else and come in at 8:30 but she quickly got that dismissed. She was SO rude in her emails to everyone. Snarky, bitchy, condescending, even to higher ups. I was told to cut down on the snacks we were buying because no other office had them and when I sent out an email about it, she demanded I buy her favorite muffins because she said so and her attorney agreed (even though she MILKED the law firm of overtime money and definitely had enough to buy some herself, she probably made over 40k a year JUST in overtime).

      I realized she was falsifying her time sheets and the overtime she worked. I had her in and out times of the parking garage and was comparing them with her time sheets and giving this info to HR (and what was strange is she would sometimes leave at 3am which makes me think she would go out at night, also explains the showing up at 11 looking ragged and hungover). We were going to gather evidence over a few weeks and then HR was going to come talk to her about it.

      Then one day, we were walking to a firm happy hour and she was talking about how she carries a stun gun. She pulled it out and discharged it right in front of everyone, scaring the living shit out of me. I called HR the next day and she was fired for carrying a weapon in the office. LOL!

        1. Anita-ita*

          Well, the office I worked in ended up announcing that they were closing that city’s office because the 2 top lawyers (including the main guy) were taking their business to a different law firm. Some speculate it was because of Kelly, others thought this had been planned for a long time (which I believe the latter since these things take about a year to do, especially if you’re bringing on your staff and she was fired in March and the announcement came at the end of May).

          Needless to say, Kelly did not go work at the new firm with them but she did come in one day when we were packing up the office to close down to pick up something for him. If I had been at the office at the time she waltzed in the door I would have told her to get the F out (maybe softer language, maybe not). When I walked in and saw her, I was stunned. She said “oh ya and by the way I’ve been working for *attorney’s name* the entire time on my own! Maybe ya shouldn’t have fired me and you’d still have a job!

          I have never had so much hate for someone in my life. To this day I think about slashing her tires. LOL.

        2. Anita-ita*

          but to answer your question, I did not face any consequences and actually got congratulated by many people for having the balls to get rid of her.

      2. JustShutUpAlready*

        Awesome! I love your story. It galls me that employees hijack power that is officially tied to their bosses (i.e., senior partners, managing directors, etc. Good for you for reporting this horrible person, and finally getting rid of her. Your colleagues must have been jumping for joy!

    3. Teapot librarian*

      Wait, this is my employee. Except that I’m not powerless and I need to get off the stick, document better, and get rid of the guy, even though he is “untouchable” due to institutional knowledge. I’m sorry I can’t help more, but DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.

      1. Artemesia*

        Institutional knowledge hoarders need to be end run. You know if he died tonight, the firm would cope, so think about how that would be and proceed to document what appears to be unique knowledge. The two times I dealt with this sort of thing it turned out that the importance of the people concerned had been exaggerated. Tighten the noose documenting the tasks others do that are in his domain and review old files , emails etc to identify other areas of his control/expertise. Softly softly catches . . .

      1. Not Today Satan*

        That’s what’s so perplexing about it to me. In these situations, management is actively choosing they’d rather keep the toxic person and lose good employees (because good employees DO leave due to this stuff).

        1. Alpha Bravo*

          The consensus at exjob was that this person had blackmail material on folks at high levels. They had access to tptb both past and present, there was acknowledgment of an actual agreement to protect them, and I knew (was told directly by this person) that in past jobs they had not hesitated to blackmail management. So … yeah.

      2. anon24*

        Yes, I quit my management position because of someone under me like that. They were promoted to my position, and according to someone who still works there they are horrible at it, sexually harrass the girls/women who work there (this is a place that hires mostly teens and college students, this employee is a male in his 60s), and the employee I know suspects that this employee is stealing from the tip money. Part of the reason I left is because things didn’t balance everytime this person had access to the money, but I couldn’t prove anything and I didn’t want to get blamed myself. I encouraged the employee I know to call the owner to report the harrassment, because the manager won’t do anything, but I doubt it will happen.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      In my former job, I had a colleague who had come into the organization with the division head, who was just thrilled with his work and gave him excellent reviews for a decade, while he showed zero initiative, resisted to refused most core aspects of his work, and terrorized other employees (especially younger women who he thought he could intimidate). Now that there is new leadership, they are trying to rein him in, but with the organization’s HR policies, it’s very hard for the leadership to make the case now that he’s been underperforming for years.

      I, personally, managed to have a good relationship with this person. (I’m kind of a jerk whisperer, and the dude actually did have something of a kind heart underneath all the BS.) But his attitude often impacted my work. Even though my manager (who was also sort of his) wasn’t in a position where she could take drastic action, she was really proactive about insulating me from his worst attributes. For example, she made it very explicit that I was not expected to backfill his work when he was refusing to do it or doing it poorly. She was working on finding a way to get me into a private office so I would be physically farther from him. I really appreciated these things, as well as her just acknowledging that this person’s performance was impacting me in a way that was unfair, even if she couldn’t necessarily fix the root issue.

      If you are in a place where you can proactively insulate the good and good-intentioned employees from the jerk, try doing that (and telling them that you’re doing it).

    6. anon for this*

      Yes, ugh. This is a person who has lied about, blackmailed, and threatened other employees, and has had at least one fired. He also gets almost no work done but makes sure to brag about every tiny thing he accomplishes. He disappears from the office without telling anybody for hours at a time, or just leaves with no warning. He also quit with zero notice over something really petty and then changed his mind and was reinstated at least once. He is a shameless brown-noser. What really infuriates me is that I’m pretty sure part of the reason he’s the boss’s golden child is that he’s one of very few men in the company and is interested in sports.

    7. JustShutUpAlready*

      I am currently dealing with a toxic person in a shared office that houses two law firms. The firms’ respective specialties are vastly dissimilar, as are our clients. I sit less than ten feet away from an employee of the other firm. The woman – let’s call her Drusilla – is loud, loves the sound of her own voice, bossy, and spends a good deal of her day on personal phone calls. She runs hot and cold, and is either untouchable or super-friendly. The only times that she is cordial are when she is selling stuff for her kids’ fundraisers or hawking her multi-level marketing side gig. One day, after what must have been a difficult client phone call, she literally screamed at an attorney at the top of her lungs. I was mortified. She has been rude to my clients, and i have had to apologize for her unsolicited treatment of them. Again – mortified.

      There is also a cultural issue here, and I have to tread carefully because Drusilla would be happy to allege discrimination. (“It’s not that you’re _______, it’s that you’re a toxic, narcissistic jerk!”) Her supervisor is no better – condescending, ill-mannered, and has no regard as to the ruckus she makes when she and her pal yack it up a few feet away from my desk. Noise-canceling headphones? Not enough.

      I finally went to my senior attorney, and complained about not being able to concentrate on extremely detail-oriented work because of this clueless woman’s behavior. I asked that he think about how to approach his counterpart on suggesting Drusilla tone down the chatter. He agreed. I asked him to let me know before he approached the counterpart. He didn’t notify me, because the next day, Drusilla started shunning me, and so did her supervisor and other friends. She has dialed down the volume a bit, but now I’m the office bitch because I asked for the ability to get my work done without having to listen to her obnoxious voice all day. It is hurtful that I am now a pariah, but I’m here to do my job and do it well. I And I am documenting Drusilla’s behavior, should I ever need to justify my request for a little quiet. Any advice would be most appreciated!

  56. Everyone Ends Up Alone*

    Anyone have any advice about how to deal with feelings of abandonment when a colleague/friend leaves to take a much better job elsewhere? I have some abandonment issues from my FOO. And I took one of the worst jobs related to abandonment, since in academia, people leave you every year. My colleague and I have worked together for 11 years and have ended up friends, even co-founding an nonprofit together.

    I support his job search and know that he will be better off, but have the whiny two-year old in my head saying, “what about me?”

    It just reminds me of the saying from my favorite show, “Everyone ends up alone and no one is coming to save you”.

    2. Lumen*

      I am so sorry you’re going through this. That’s a really rough emotional place to be in, but you’re very wise to recognize that it comes from your past experiences, and that you aren’t “really” being abandoned or rejected, this is just triggering for you. Also very wise to ask for advice on how to cope.

      First of all: if you have an EAP, call the number and talk through it. If you are open to seeking therapy, go for a while. You don’t have to commit to several years of counseling. Use what you need to get through a tough time, or stay a while and dig into the thought patterns formed in your FoO.

      Second of all: at work and with this colleague, just be honest. Tell them that you are happy for them AND that you’ll miss them. Maybe make plans to continue your friendship outside of work, whether in person or long distance. If you feel overwhelmed emotionally, excuse yourself for a bit because you know that some of those emotions aren’t about your friend or work, but about other things from the past.

      Third, related: when you start catastrophizing (such as the quote you shared; that is pretty catastrophic thinking), that is your brain sending you a signal that you are overwhelmed. You have left the present and entered the past. You are taking on not only the issue right in front of you, but issues from your history – that’s too much for any person to handle all at once. You can only deal with the issue in front of you when you untangle it from the issues behind you.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Wonderful advice, well done.

        As you move through this, it might be a good idea to work on a new goal for yourself. This could be work related or life related. People leave our lives in various ways and we realize, “ugh. Now I have a hole in my life.”
        Start contemplating what you would like to do. It’s human nature to want to be moving toward something, to want to be building things up in some manner- this could be building up your coin collection or getting more education or putting an addition on your house. It’s whatever building up means to you, it could be a tweak or a massive change, whatever you would like.

  57. shep*

    My supervisor is great and has an open-door policy, but increasingly busy as she’s moved up considerably in the organization. I’m still her direct report, and a lot of my duties hinge directly on feedback from her. She still has that open-door policy, but her schedule is so packed that it’s MUCH harder to pin her down than it was a few years ago. (I began as her third direct report a few years ago; she now manages several mid-tier managers, and I am the outlier.)

    She’s pretty responsive via email, but is taking longer and longer to respond to things. I try to keep my emails as concise and query-driven as possible, but sometimes I’m still left with a lack of direction on certain projects.

    I would just exercise my own judgment, but every time I’ve gone to her with a mock-up of a project, she’s suggested changes regarding things I thought were fine. She’s never demeaning or demanding, and she makes it clear what I’ve put together isn’t WRONG, per se, but she wants things a certain way.

    This obviously shakes my confidence; I want to stop relying on her so much for projects I put together regularly, both for my sake and hers because she’s so unbelievably busy now, but I also feel like my instincts to ask her to give it a final pass are always validated when she requests changes.

    Should I talk to her about this? I would approach it by explaining that I appreciate how available she makes herself, but that I know she’s also gotten just outrageously busy and that I feel silly asking her very small questions at this point, and would she mind if I started exercising a bit more latitude with projects X and Y, etc.

    1. Snark*

      I have had exactly this conversation with a boss. Fortunately, he was a pretty chill guy and receptive to what I said, which was basically, “Hey, ever since you got kicked upstairs, you’ve been super busy and hard to nail down to get your input on a project. I feel like I’ve got enough experience doing this that I’ve got really good handle on the process and can move more independently than I have been. Is it cool with you if I use my own judgement at X and Y milestones, and get final approval from you at Z? Of course if you want to weigh in more often than that I’ll continue bringing it to you. But if you have confidence in my ability to do it well even if it’s not exactly your approach, can we streamline this?” And lo, the thing was streamlined, and moved much faster.

      My feeling is that she’s giving you input because you’re asking for it, and she wants things a certain way because you’re asking her to weigh in. And my feeling is you tend to self-doubt, so you bring it to her even if your judgement is entirely sound and you’re capable of moving forward independently your way.

      1. shep*

        This is EXCELLENT advice. I will have to set something up with her, because I do think this conversation needs to be had, along with clarifying a few other things since she’s moved up in the org.

        And you’re likewise spot-on in your assessment of my tendency to self-doubt. I know logically that I’m competent and capable, but OH BOY can I start to second-guess myself in a heartbeat.

        1. Snark*

          I know NOTHING about self-doubt. NOTHING.

          This sounds like a really healthy conversation that needs to happen. It’s not even a heavy convo, just “hey, can we clarify responsibilities and workflow now that you’re Grand Poobah? “

        2. zora*

          This is really good, and if she still needs input on a lot of stuff, follow up with “then what is the best way to get in front of you?” I would suggest a weekly or biweekly standing 30 min on her calendar, but talk through options with her.

          1. shep*

            This is also great advice! We actually used to do quarterly meetings, and I think we attempted monthly meetings at one point, as part of an org-wide staff suggestion. Both meeting structures have fallen by the wayside in the past year or so, but I also think she’d be really accommodating if I requested them again personally. She’s so busy and has such frequent travel obligations that a standing appointment probably wouldn’t work, but just keeping in mind that we’d like to touch base every week or two, and scheduling accordingly as we go, would probably do me a world of good.

            1. zora*

              Yeah, just make it a priority. Maybe make yourself a calendar reminder to check her calendar every couple of weeks and ask for a meeting time.

              I know how you feel, I am an admin, and many times my boss has told me to book time for myself on her calendar, but I always deprioritize it because I feel like I’m the least important thing for her to worry about, and then I basically end up never doing it. I do not recommend this approach. ;o)

            2. DDJ*

              If your boss keeps her calendar updated, you could also send her the meeting request each week so that it’s not on her plate. That way, she’d be assured that you’re using her schedule to make sure there’s no time conflict, but you’d also get the benefit of the meeting. And if you can manage them every week, it’s really easy to find 15-30 minutes, rather than trying to have a longer meeting more often.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Do you see patterns in her preferences? Start looking for those patterns. Most bosses have patterns.

      Two boss stories.
      One job the tasks varied widely. Think one day pour concrete and the next day programming a computer. Wild variations. I really was not sure-footed on decisions when the bosses were not there. We were a conservative place, with little money and little resources. My boss said, when in doubt pick the most conservative solution possible. For me, that morphed into pick the choice that was the easiest to fix if it was wrong or that would do the least amount of damage if it was wrong. Once I had this conversation, I was more confident in making choices and my boss thought I did a great job. Maybe just ask her how to pick solutions that she likes better.

      More currently, I am working in a field I have never worked in before. It’s like everyone is speaking Greek and I am afraid I will accidentally say a cuss word. I started with the things that came up the most frequently and I nailed those things down. While I was still doing this foundational stuff, I would ask my boss about the more unusual situations. Once I got the frequently occurring things nailed, I started asking questions about the more difficult stuff. “When I encounter A, what steps do you want me to do?” I would write it down. Then I moved on to B and learned those steps. I made it my goal to never ask the same question twice.

      In your example here, I would look at learning her logic and what she sees as a priority. For example you may learn never, ever get the chocolate teapots. Only get the plastic ones. Hey, the both melt in heat, what’s the difference? Then you realize it’s just her preference, she likes plastic teapots so that is what you get. But other things may be a standard in your arena, so you want to make sure you are comfortable with knowing the standards, also.

      If you have to, make a note book. I am experimenting with a bullet journal type of thing to put all the odd rules of thumb and random instructions that come up in the course of my day. I put a date, and then give each thing a title. So keeping with my above example I would write:
      1-26-18
      Teapots: Plastic vs. Chocolate
      Boss prefers plastic teapots. Do not buy chocolate teapots.
      Then in my index I would put something like “teapots: Plastic vs Chocolate, page 5”
      (A stupid example, sorry. You see the idea anyway.)

      1. shep*

        I definitely look for patterns already, but when when I want to tweak something in a process that’s already been set, I feel like I always have to go to her to ask if we can amend it (lather, rinse, repeat with multiple projects/processes).

        Part of the cool thing about my job is that it’s always slightly different each day.

        But that’s also part of the downside, and hence my needing (or feeling like I need) to run things by my supervisor constantly–they’re often new and without precedent.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay the key word here is that you “feel”, but you have not had formal confirmation. Definitely talk to her, ask her what range you have say over. Ask her when she needs you to ask her.

          Don’t be afraid to ask a boss where your boundaries are. What I am authorized to decide and what is beyond my scope? If you explain it as, “I don’t want to overstep but I do want to do a great job” many bosses would be pleased as punch to hear this question.

  58. Lore*

    I have a good friend who’s been out of work for a while after her job relocated and she wasn’t able to move due to family caregiving obligations. She’s in a weird position because she’s competing with lawyers for positions where a law degree is a “nice to have” but not required–but if a jd is willing to take the salary, it’s likely they’ll be hired. So she’s willing to take a job a level below and interviews regularly for those…but keeps being rejected post interview. Recently she asked for feedback after an interview where she thought she’d done well and got pretty devastating criticism: that she was coming on too strong personality wise and oversharing about the family situation that had contributed to the long period of unemployment. Her spirit is broken at this point and I don’t know how else to help. She’s got some disabilities that create challenges for retail or customer service work, and has had no luck even getting on the books of temp agencies. Any thoughts for how to proceed? Temp agency recs, gig or non office work that can be done by someone with hearing issues and who will have a hard time standing for an eight hour shift? Mental health tips for getting through a shame and despair cycle when finances preclude therapy right now?

    1. DCompliance*

      Are you show that the reason she is not getting the jobs is because she isn’t a lawyer and not because she interviews poorly? If you are saying she is getting rejected post-interview that appears that potential employers are well aware she is not an attorney.

      I she was asked a question about why there was a gap in her resume, the best thing to say was that “I had to care for a family member” (if that is truth) and leave it at that. Don’t get too personal in a interview.

      1. Lore*

        I don’t think the lawyer thing is the only reason, but she has been told for some of the others where she made it to the final two or three people that the law degree was a deciding factor, and also positions that are identical to her former job at different companies are now asking for JDs. So, yeah, I believe that’s definitely part of it. Only one part of it, though.

      2. FD*

        +1

        From the feedback she got, I sort of wonder if she feels she has to over-explain her period of absence, and it’s more than is appropriate for an interview.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I know that can be pretty discouraging feedback, but really – it’s good to know this now! She now has tangible, actionable feedback to apply to interviews. Help her reframe this feedback as a starting point, not an ending. Can you help her practice interviewing? Like full-on role play it up? Ask the questions that the interviewer specifically said were the problem, and help her craft succinct answers that don’t delve too deeply into over-personal explanations. If she can get practice in a low-stakes setting, it can really help when she’s in an actual interview.

      1. Lore*

        I think I’m too close a friend to be the right person to practice with–but that’s definitely a good idea if I can think of someone else who might have a little more emotional distance.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why not print out Alison’s free guide for interviewing and give it to her.

      This sides steps the whole issue of telling her what she is doing wrong and goes directly to “What To Do”. Most people get frustrated with being told what not to do, because it’s not instructive. It does not say what they should do.

      It’s self-paced and she can read it in private, also. Maybe think about giving her a copy, then settle back and see what happens next.

      You can talk up the site and how much Alison has helped you and oh-so-many other people. Which is totally true, btw.

      1. Lore*

        Well, there’s an obvious solution! Thanks–don’t know why I didn’t think of it. Maybe the whole book would be useful as well.

      1. Lore*

        Yes, that’s a(nother) long and frustrating story. It’s been an incredibly slow process, and the local agency doesn’t seem to have a lot of resources for people who have considerable experience but now need help transitioning, rather than people whose disabilities have made it hard for them to get into the work force at all. After eight months of filling out paperwork, taking various evaluations, and being sent for 10 unpaid full work days of screening, and assessment, they have reimbursed for about $50 of transportation and sent one job posting from the state government job board (which my friend also checks regularly anyway) for a temp position in the state capital, which is 250 miles away from where we live. She’s got an appointment with a hearing-aid center, finally, but it’s unclear whether/how this is subsidized and there are also some logistical issues coordinating with insurance (and I don’t know all the details of her insurance situation). She’s meeting with a financial person from there, finally, next week, which hopefully will be more useful, as the general case worker she’s been assigned doesn’t really seem to know what to do with her…

    5. Kuododi*

      As far as low-cost counseling is concerned…if you and your friend are in the US… organizations such as Volunteers of America and United Way would be a resource for sliding scale mental health care. Additionally if y’all are located near a University with a counseling training program the student run low cost clinic would be another opportunity. The clinic where I did my training was filling with students who had a minimum of a Master’s in a counseling discipline and we’re working on post Master’s credentials. Clients were seen for at most $25 and minimum $5. If faith based counseling is within your friends comfort zone I recommend a Pastoral Counselor rather than a “Christian Counselor.”. The former has a minimum of a Master’s degree in a counseling discipline, secular licensure in the mental health services plus denominational training and credentials. They have a national governing body and cllnical supervisors/continuing education. The later has good intentions, minimal, if any training and no licensures. Depending on where they are based, it would be possible to work out some form of reduced payment. Best wishes!!!

    6. Artemesia*

      She got the rare thing people almost never get, clear feedback on how she interviews. I would bet that this is what it holding her back as it is very rare that people would be this blunt. Getting some interview advice and role play practice might help. She should look at this feedback as not ‘crushing’ but as a great gift few people get and act on it to improve how she interviews. Dialing back the nattering about her family caregiving issues is easy. the ‘coming on strong’ is harder, but with some advice and practice, she might be able to put a better foot forward. But first she has to see this feedback as a good thing.

  59. Tired Teacher*

    I am curious to hear from those of you that have changed career directions after some time in one field. I am 29 and have been in education for 9 years in multiple roles, both full-time classroom teaching and other instructional roles. I have a Master’s in this field, but I’ve been considering exploring other career options. I have been questioning if I want to stay in education for a few years and don’t know if this is typical feelings of burnout or an indication I should pursue something else.

    I’m intimidated by the idea of leaving a stable and predictable career path to pursue something unknown, especially after building a decent resume in my current field, but know it will only get harder to make a switch the longer I wait.

    I recently read one of Allison’s responses to a LW in a similar situation, encouraging her that it wasn’t too late for a career change (very far from it, in fact) and it struck a chord with me.

    So I’d love to hear from those of you that took the plunge and made the change. Any success stories, cautionary tales, words of wisdom or maybe some encouragement?

    1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      I was laid off from a non-profit and tried to stay in the same field since it was all I’d ever done, but I couldn’t find a job and so started temping as an admin asst. I’m now in the exact opposite industry in a way, but I love it. OTOH, my non-profit was so toxic, it was easy to get burned on the whole industry and shaking it off was such a relief.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Yep. And I wish I’d done it sooner. I kept thinking being a journalist meant all I could do was, like, write and make nagging phone calls to strangers, but when I actually started looking at job adverts I realised how many of them listed things I could do. Retraining a bit helped, but the main thing was looking at tangible examples of jobs I’d like to have and seeing what examples I could use to prove I had transferrable skills.

      I now work for a chariy and I’m so much happier. My other tip is just to watch out for assumptions you might make based on norms from your previous field – you might need to be extra vigilant about observing how things are done. It can help to talk to people in the field and get a feel for norms and stuff. Good luck!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Ha, so your first two responses are from people who moved into and left the same field…

        I was in my 30s when I switched career. And I don’t think it’s ever too late.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m having to seriously consider changing careers because I can’t seem to find a job in my field locally and I can’t relocate. And I’m early 40s and have no idea what else to do because my skills are highly specialized, just not in a way that employers seem to need or want anymore. I’m either over qualified or under qualified or don’t have the exact unicorn skill set they’re looking for. It’s frustrating and disheartening because I worked hard to get where I am and now I might be out of a career I love. Also demoralizing – I was laid off last spring and my old group is now hiring two early-career positions doing exactly what I was doing (in my mid-level position) before I left, and somehow that difference in levels exempts the company from the union-mandated recall that I’m part of.

      I don’t think it’s too late, even for me. If I had some new career in mind, I’d be far more optimistic. Unfortunately I just have no idea what else I want to do or am qualified for.

    4. Overeducated*

      I know plenty of people who’ve made career switches in their late 20s and 30s! Two teachers who became lawyers and one lawyer who became a teacher, a teacher who is an apprentice carpenter, multiple teachers who work as park rangers (some in retirement though). Two anthropologists who became nurses, one who became a UX designer, one who runs an international youth program. A psychologist who leads product research for a tech company. A physicist, a biologist, and an ecologist who became data analysts. An archaeologist who leads a reproductive rights nonprofit. A friend who worked retail much of her 20s deciding what to do, eventually becoming a pharmacist. A professional musician who became a software developer. A computer scientist who is becoming a neurosurgeon. A stay at home mom who became a historic preservationist.

      …man, my friends are interesting! (And well educated. And most of them make a lot more money than I ever will.)

      The ones who went into medicine all had to go back to school, the ones in tech basically all did boot camps of some sort for lingo and connections, others just found ways to laterally move. But it can totally happen and the world is so big. Have hope!

    5. urban teacher*

      I’m leaving teaching at 52. I will have my MPA by June and am using all of AAM’s advice to help with applying for nonprofits. I figured a second career was a better alternative than how education is going in America. Also why should Teach For America grads make all the educational policy?

    6. Traveling Teacher*

      I’m biased because I also recently did this! Short Answer: If you’ve been miserable for a significant amount of time: Just leave.

      Long Answer: After modding my teaching jobs and teaching for long enough to get interesting, longer-term, stable jobs, I realized that what was making me increasingly more miserable was never going to change (namely: the administrative burden was killing me.) It was even affecting my health! When I told my doctor that I couldn’t change jobs, he just looked at me with that French expression of “Quoi?” (“What?”) And asked me why the hell not. He waved away my weak protests of “but this is what I always thought I was supposed to do?” and said, “Well, now you know that you were wrong. What will you do instead?”

    7. Ren McFee*

      At 27 I went to grad school and I’ve never looked back. Best decision ever. You’re young and there’s an adventure ahead. Solvitur ambulando = It is solved by walking.

  60. Cloud Nine Sandra*

    I know better than to talk to anyone at work here about this, but the coworker two cubicles over has been having a loud endless meltdown of how badly she’s being treated for the last three days and how any day might be her last day and the whole company just acts like she is trash or something. I just want her to quit or be fired or be DONE because the angst and explosions 20 feet away is very vexing. I dislike putting headphones in because I communicate with one of the people I work for over the phone constantly, but I think this might be the day for it. Or week. Or however long she lasts in this snit.

    I would be more understanding, but she’s been complaining about this company for the last year I’ve been working here.

  61. LilLamb*

    So I recently have been watching The Office, and I was curious about how the heck a sane person would handle Michael Scott at his “best” (besides quitting of course).
    -Michael sleeping with Pam’s mom
    -Michael hitting Meredith with his car and then demanding she accept his apology in front of his entire staff (while she’s still in the hospital).
    -Michael outing Oscar at the office

    AND GO!

    1. shep*

      The Office is my absolute favorite show, and my knee-jerk reaction/way to handle Michael [aside from quitting] would be to keep my head down and job search furiously. Which is definitely not ideal, but it’s probably the most realistic reaction I’d have.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I have one more to add….how Michael claimed he knew what it was like to be handicapped because he burned his foot on a George Foreman Grill.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I. can’t. watch. that. show.

      My idea is if you decide to stay in the Twilight Zone, then you find coping tools. Unfortunately, the coping tools that worked yesterday won’t work today so part of the job requires building fresh coping tools on a daily basis.

  62. Ramona Flowers*

    People who do training and public speaking: do you have any tips for when you’re co-presenting or co-facilitating with someone who’s nervous and struggling to engage with the audience?

    This happened to me this week, and as we’d expressly agreed to ask each other to step in if we needed help I just let them get on with it and do it their own way. They tried really hard and were understandably very nervous (big group – three-figure number of attendees) but from my perspective they kept losing the audience by just talking at them and during my bits I kept having to work extra-hard to re-engage them again, which was exhausting.

    I’ve since given them tips, purely because they told me I was a great trainer and how did I do it, so I mentioned a couple of things that help (e.g. I make eye contact with one person for a bit and imagine I’m just speaking to them, I try to tell stories, etc). There wasn’t really anything I could do in the moment I don’t think, but I don’t know, and would appreciate solidarity/tips/something.

    1. Lynca*

      You’re doing the right things. I am gearing up for speaking to small groups at and this is how I find it best to engage. I speak to the audience like I’m speaking to them personally. Try to make the material relatable to what they do. But the thing I had to do was practice speaking aloud. Even just mentally going over what to say on the drive to work/presentation location.

      I have gotten better at it and my last presentations got thanked for giving such a good one. Which was new to me!

    2. Justin*

      What you mentioned is great. Eye contact with different people, pull out and use someone’s name if you can. And just don’t lecture. Check for understanding frequently, and be sure to connect each thing you’re saying to some other facet of the presentation.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Thanks! I’m really looking more for tips on how to save it when your co-trainer isn’t doing that stuff. Do you just have to overcompensate?

        1. Lisa B*

          Maybe ask if a sign/signal would work better as the SOS instead of, if I understand your comment correctly, them specifically having to ask for help in the moment. Your partner surely knows they’re struggling but might not want to say it out loud in front of such a large audience. If you two agree that “hey, if I get the sense that you’re really struggling with a certain part, is it ok if I just jump in? I’ll pause after a few minutes and if you feel ready you can just pick up the next bit. Or catch my eye and I’ll know you want me to pipe in.”

        2. Artemesia*

          Can the floundering co-worker actually pull you in when s/he needs help? It is awkward to step in when someone is floundering; it makes you look control freaky and domineering to a significant part of the audience. But if s/he is sinking s/he could turn to you and ask you to comment which would let you do something to draw the audience in. (if you. have a confidence partner you can each just jump in from time to time, but if the partner is failing, paradoxically it looks bad.). i.e. Ramona has handled this kind of issue before; Ramona do you have some tips about llama hair conditioners that have worked for you.

          For tips for the partner. S/he needs a couple of audience prompts to engage the audience on the specific topic when they start to drift. ‘Let’s apply this to a specific situation; imagine XXXX What are some of the things you could do to apply the principle of holocracy in this situation?’ Or ‘with the person next to you come up with an example of how to deal with people in meetings who constantly interrupt.’ Coming prepared with a few ‘tricks’ for audience boredom is always a good idea as a speaker.

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      Are you scheduling frequent breaks in your presentations? If so, during one of the breaks, *tell* the other person that you’re going to step in for them, and you will talk about it later. Because otherwise you’re cheating your audience of something (possibly $, certainly time) and that’s not fair to them.

      Also, had that other person done smaller presentations before? Because it’s the same skill-set. It’s more alarming with larger groups, but it’s still the same skills.

      My big tip (only appropriate if you actually want audience participation, but my experience is in training, so I do) is to ask open-ended questions, and ideally start this early in the presentation. (Don’t ask yes/no questions — instead ask a question that needs an actual answer and then SHUT UP until someone speaks. Someone will, eventually.)

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        They had presented before, but I’d not seen them do it. I agree with you that it’s the same skill-set. I couldn’t step in for them completely for various reasons but I really would have liked to. I’m just venting I think as I can’t really tell them this.

        1. Adhdyanon*

          Sometimes there’s not much you can do, unfortunately. In my field there’s a lot of two person training where one person is good and the other one is meh at best.

          My only advice is to not try and fix anything early in the day, unless it’s really going off the rails. Otherwise wait to see if the class turns against your cotrainer. Only step in if they do.

          Also, that’s when it’s great to have evaluations broken up by course section.

    4. Meghan Trainer*

      Ugh. I’ve been on both ends of this.

      When I was new in my role as a trainer, this is what I appreciated:
      – Chances to observe before training something myself
      – Thoroughly understanding the content/topic before training it
      – Feedback on my training from my co-trainer

      Now, as someone who is often in your shoes:
      – I ask my co-trainer if they want feedback prior to starting the training — some people feel better knowing they will get feedback from what they are about to do, and some people feel like a weight is lifted when they say, “No thanks!”
      – If your co-trainer/presenter is referring speaking opportunities to you a lot (I’m particularly thinking of not knowing an answer to an audience question), refer to them a little when you get the chance; it can help them feel like more of an expert and boost confidence: “Patrice, you work more closely with Teapot Technical Configuration, could you describe the process of submitting a new design?”
      – Sometimes you just have to accept that your co-trainer/presenter might not be cut out for the public speaking life. And thank the lucky stars that you can hold up your leg of the presentation so the whole thing doesn’t crash.

    5. Rookie Manager*

      A colleague and I who did a lot of training together would always ask each other ‘do you want to add anything?’ Or ‘did I miss anything’ or ask the other to add an anecdote. Because we passed to each other it didn’t appear to the group that either of us were uncertain. We got a lot of positive feedback about our ‘double act’ and because we had a conversation the trainees felt more able to ask/answer converations.

      (I’d try not to just step in unless it’s previously agreed. Our manager was a terrible co-trainer because he would interrupt, say you had forgotten something that was in the next section, lecture for 40minutes then hand back with a reminder that tea break was due 20 minutes ago. It undermined the other trainer and personally made me feel constant low anxiety that he would derail my bit then tell me off for it.)

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This is great, thank you. It was hard to call on each other as we only had one mic (in a set up that wasn’t ideal but we didn’t have control over it) but this is really helpful thank you.

  63. NoodleMara*

    Scripts needed!

    I’ve been offered a position for a university affiliated group who asked the person hiring to get my current supervisor’s reference. I haven’t spoke to my supervisor about leaving as I wasn’t sure when it was going to happen. My other references were excellent and the person hiring seems a little confused about the current supervisor reference thing anyway. It seems like a new process that the university instituted. I expressed some hesitation at it and she assured me that I was definitely going to get the job. I do believe her but the whole thing is making me nervous to talk to my supervisor.

    Do you have any scripts to ask my supervisor for a reference? I’m definitely going to be leaving the company for this job within a month, my start date is March 1. I’m not sure if I should get into the reasons why I’m leaving, which were burnout and stress. Any advice? This is my first job out of college and I’ve been here almost 4 years.

    1. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I don’t have any advice but I’d also like to hear others’ suggestions. I haven’t told my boss that I’m looking to leave and I know he’ll be disappointed when I do, but he’s the best person to speak to my work in this industry.

  64. Kerry B.*

    AAMers who work jobs that are not Monday to Friday 9-5 and/or office jobs, what do you do and what kind of work schedule do you have?

    I work in catering/event planning for weddings. I work for 3 hours on Tuesday afternoon (12:30pm to 3:30pm) and 6.5 hours Wednesday to Friday (9am to 3:30pm…6 hours of work and a 30 min lunch.) On Saturday into Sunday morning I work either 11am to 1am or 2pm to 4pm. I have the rest of Sunday, all of Monday and Tuesday morning off work. The weddings are always on Saturdays and we have setup before and after besides working the event. We spend Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday, Thursday and Friday preparing for the event.

    I am not a manager or in any position of authority. I am just a regular employee. I’m on the lowest rung of the ladder. This is the only job I have ever held and I have been doing it for over 10 years now.

    1. Kerry B.*

      That should read 2pm to 4am. On Saturdays into Sunday morning our days are 14 hours. Any breaks we take are paid.

    2. Jessi*

      I am a nanny. I work 7am-6pm M-F with one late night per week. I have regular paid breaks when the children are in school, but during the school holidays I am unable to take a break (can’t leave children alone!) though I have time to eat etc.

      As a household employee I am paid OT for all and any hours over 40.

    3. Laura H*

      I work in retail. My schedule varies. ~12-16 hrs/ wk is the norm and while it’s not where I want to be forever (nor is it fiscally feasible) I feel it sure beats being jobless. But on weeks like this week and next where I’m off during the entirety of the Mon- Fri workweek… I’m goin stir crazy.

    4. zora*

      I’m 9-5 now, but when I worked on a political campaign, it was 9:30 am – 10:30 pm Mon – Sat, 9:30 am – 7:30pm Sunday for the summer months. By September it was 9:30 – 10:30 7 days a week. That was rough, but since it’s only from about July – November, and you know the end date, that helps you get through it.

      And that was the schedule for the field team only, the rest of the campaign worked more like 6:00 am – 6:00 pm, but we all got out a little early on Sundays during the summer.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        I work 9:45 to 6 on Mondays and Wednesdays, 10:45 to 7 on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 8:45 to 5 on Fridays. If we ever get a second librarian, I’ll be required to work alternate Saturdays 8:45 to 5 until June.

    5. Al Lo*

      I work in the arts, specifically in an organization that has many classes for children and youth, as well as performances and professional artists.

      Our office is open 9-5, and we have classes or rehearsals most evenings until 9 or 10. Many weekends there are either daytime workshops/rehearsals or concerts/shows.

      Typically I come in to work between 11 and 2 on any given weekday. Most nights I leave sometime between 7 and 9, although it’s not hard for me to leave by 5 or 6 if I need to. I couldn’t do that every night, but when I have something else scheduled, I typically don’t have a problem arranging to leave early.

      I work about 1/2 of the weekends in a year — that may include Saturday, Sunday, or both, and in any combination from a full 16-hour show day to a 2-hour time commitment for a gig. This weekend, for instance, I was in the office for about 5 hours today, and I have a show tomorrow which will take about 6 hours of my time. I won’t work Sunday.

      I accrue lieu time for overtime, and have an incredibly flexible schedule, so it’s not unusual for me to work 4-5 hour days during a slower period. I aim for at least one 4-hour day per week, since I often end up working weekends in some capacity.

    6. PetticoatsandPincushions*

      I work at a museum part time, so it’s 10-6 three days a week including Saturday. Then to supplement that income, I also host at a restaurant two nights a week. So my weekend is Sunday/Monday, and then I have three days shifts and two night shifts, which can be nice for running errands and hanging with the dog, but frustrating when I have to work late one night and get up for a shift the next morning.

    7. Former Oilfield Trash*

      In a previous life I used to work in oil rigs. So my shifts would be 6am to 6pm two weeks in a row (weekends and holidays included), followed by three weeks off and then a week at the office. It was really good and I enjoyed it a lot, mainly because when you’re on the operation keeps you busy and there’s no time to get bored, and when you’re off you truly disconnect.

  65. Anon for today*

    I work as a CFO/head of HR in a small manufacturing company. We have weekly meetings (about 7 of us top level guys) where we are supposed to review past week, forecast next week and in general communicate anything that needs to be communicated to management.

    In my position, if its been a great week, everything been paid, all customers have paid on time and nobody’s filed an HR grievance. So basically my accomplishments simply mean the company continues to run smoothly. How can I contribute meaningfully to these meetings when what I do so ephemeral compared to sales guys (brought in a 50k sale) or production guys ( shipped out 20k packages)? I want to make sure that my team is recognized for doing a good job but it’s difficult to quantify to these guys. Help?

    1. cactus lady*

      Can you come up with some metrics for your data? Like, 100% of customers were paid on time, 0 HR grievances filed in x number of weeks, etc, and maybe talk about upcoming expenses/HR policy or law changes/anything that’s on your plate in the near future?

    2. NW Mossy*

      Are there longer-term projects you’re working on for the business? Areas where you may need support from other leaders or need to mention forthcoming changes? Patterns in the work that your area’s handling, like significant increases/decreases in volume, quality, etc.? In your world, that might mean changes you’re making to reduce the lead time to pay or reduce errors, a renegotiated agreement to save money with a vendor, or good results on an employee engagement survey.

      I manage a team that is something of a catch-all – we basically take all the high-level operations work that doesn’t fit with any other team. I use these categories a lot to talk about what my team does and show the value in a way that doesn’t require tons of technical knowledge to understand, and it’s been pretty effective so far.

    3. Maya Elena*

      You can highlight members of your team who enabled things to run smoothly – a talented manager, a hardworking analyst, a rep who handled the most calls?

      But it also may not be necessary to outshine the other guys – you can be the still waters that run deep. Especially if it shortens the meetings!

  66. cactus lady*

    You guys, I’m going crazy! I accepted a verbal offer on Wednesday, but it’s contingent on a background check (standard in our industry), and they said that could take up to 7 days! I really want to give my 2 weeks notice today, but I’m worried about doing it before the background check clears…. I know that there’s nothing fishy on there, but what if something weird happens like someone stole my identity or something? Ahhhhhhh

    1. Aphrodite*

      Ah, those unfounded and crazy fantasy worries. I have a variation of those whenever I use my debit card at a store
      where I worry t that some computer chip somewhere has had a bad hair day and is suddenly going to start loudly beeping (and then shrieking) that I not only don’t have the money to pay for my purchases but that I should be arrested immediately. Everyone in the store hears all this and I am wrestled to the ground.

      Too much rereading of 1984, I think.

      1. cactus lady*

        I know, and I’m literally the only person in the world with my name (it’s fairly unusual, and my last name is so obscure that I am actually related relatively closely to anyone who has the same last name) and I can google myself and everything is normal. BUT. WHAT. IF.

    2. bonkerballs*

      That actually happened to me. I have a totally clean record, never been arrested, nothing that should pop on any kind of background check. But during the background check of the current company I work for, it came back saying I had been arrested like 12 times in the last 30 years. Thankfully for me, my now current ED didn’t think it sounded right so she called me to check in about it and I was able to convince her that it was incorrect (I think the fact the one of the arrest occurred in a state I’d never been to and during a time when I would have only been 3 years old helped convince her). The next background check I had to go through (when I moved to a new apartment) went through just fine.

      1. bonkerballs*

        Oh, and also I had already given my notice. :/ I was in a good position, though, if things had fallen through with the job – the employer I was leaving loved me and would have breathed an enormous sigh of relief if I had told her the new job fell through and could I take back my notice.

          1. bonkerballs*

            I can’t imagine that that is a *common* issue for people, but after it happened to me I’m definitely cautious going forward.

            And believe me, I totally get that somewhat irrational, paranoid anxiety. I’m the kind of person who gets anxious when I hear police sirens near my house because there’s a weird part of my brain that assumes I’m about to arrested for a crime I didn’t commit that will eventually lead to my wrongful execution. So. Ya know. I feel you. :)

          2. Overeducated*

            Don’t!!! I’ve had a job offer held up by bureaucracy for about 3 months now. SO glad I didn’t give notice.

      2. Natalie*

        Did you ever find out what happened with the erroneous background check? Like, why did it come back with someone else’s record?

        1. bonkerballs*

          I didn’t. I tried contacting the company that does the background checks, but they wouldn’t give me any information. I’ve had background checks since then that have been totally fine, so at this point I’m chalking it up to a fluke and I’m not too concerned about it.

          1. Half-Caf Latte*

            Oh weird! I just started a new job and I had the opportunity to get a copy of my background check.

            I had some items return flagged, but all were related to start/end dates not perfectly matching or titles being reported slightly differently. But when I saw “discrepancy” boy did my heart sink

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          I’ll bet it was just a SSN typo. That’s why I was denied unemployment payments once. (It got sorted out on appeal and the judge was mad at the company for being so careless.)

    3. Thlayli*

      Don’t give your notice till you have a formal written offer. Even if background check is fine, till it’s in writing it can still disappear

      1. bonkerballs*

        Usually, I’d totally agree. In this particular situation that didn’t work out because my new ED insisted on speaking to my current manager as one of my references so there really wasn’t a way to wait. Also usually that would be a red flag (and honestly it did give me major pause that she wanted to do that, but she agreed to only talk to my manager at the time if they were 99% sure they were going to hire me) but since it was the only negative I encountered during the hiring process I chose to go along with.

    4. Lindsay J*

      I never give notice until my background clears.

      I’m squeaky clean, but you just never know.

      Plus, in my field the background checks can take as long as a couple months, so I don’t want to have a gap of unemployment because I thought the check would clear right away but it took several months. I need my paychecks.

      Check for my first job took a week. Second job took 3 months. Third job took about a month. The second job was done by an external company that was contracted, and they were pretty inept.

      I also have an incredibly common last name, so I always worry about potential mixups.

    5. Kuododi*

      We had a similar situation with DH when he was preparing to start his hospital based clinical residency. We had both just finished our Master’s degrees and moved halfway cross country to do one year residencies. His program required a preliminary drug screen. NBD right???? My straight laced husband who has never consumed alcohol in his life and has to be browbeat to take OTC meds when he gets the rare seasonal cold. Well long story short….he popped positive for opioids. Lo and behold it isn’t a good idea to eat poppy seed muffin for breakfast on the day of a drug screen . Poppy seed gives a false positive for opioids… thankfully the management took DH history in account and allowed a retest.

  67. Staying Anon for This*

    So I had a weird situation yesterday.

    Had a supervisor (not mine) come into my office to chat. For reference I’m not a supervisor. This is a very difficult supervisor. He has a lot of issues with others. We were talking shop when he suddenly switched gears to talk about one of his direct reports, we’ll call him Joe. Joe apparently wants to pursue a master’s degree. It’s something that comes up and I know several people that pursued a master’s while working here. I struggled with the decision myself before deciding against it for now.

    Supervisor is extremely negative about this decision during the conversation. Which surprised me because our office is very supportive of continuing education. Belittling things like his work ethic, work products, asking too many questions about the same thing, etc. and how that made him unprepared (unworthy?) of pursuing a master’s. I’m not involved with this supervisor or report enough to know what issues are present but I also know you can’t just vent this at me. It’s unprofessional and inappropriate.

    I felt very uncomfortable about this because it’s ultimately Joe’s decision and I don’t want to know about another employee’s performance issues. So I started trying to steer the conversation towards things Joe could proactively do to make the best decision for him and not silently agree with this belittling. I made suggestions for things I did when I was weighing the decision. Such as talking to them about their expectations for working students, asking if there are students willing to talk to him about the program, and how you see this benefiting your career in the future/where do you want this to take you. I didn’t really feel comfortable telling him how inappropriate this was because he tends to fly off the handle when confronted.

    It did seem like I caught him off guard with my suggestions about how to approach this to help Joe make the best decision for him. But I don’t know if I did enough in this situation.

    1. fposte*

      Random co-worker came into your office to randomly vent about the plans of his report? I think you did above and beyond.

          1. fposte*

            My brain is like MadLibs with those sometimes. It’s another version of the “You too!” when the shuttle driver wishes you a good flight.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You handled this very well. You took a straight read and gave practical advice.

      He wanted to rant and rave and he couldn’t because you put up a wall of practicality and logic. That was a good solid redirect. Good on you.

  68. Brownie*

    My team has a member who’s stuck in his way of thinking and won’t follow standards when creating new teapots. This is a problem as the standards say that every teapot must have an identical copy in case the original is destroyed and this team member isn’t making copies at all and goes so far as to actively turn off any copying set up by other team members. Our team lead wants to run the team as a democracy and is refusing to behave “like a dictator” and enforce the copies rule, which was set by the higher-ups. Anyone have any advice either for dealing with the coworker or for convincing the team lead that enforcing rules does not equal being a dictator, especially when the outcome of a broken original teapot means the whole team will be reprimanded if no copy exists?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would remind TL that the copy is not supposed to be optional per higher ups, and responsibility for not having a copy in the event of a broken original is (rightly) going to fall on TL. It’s his job to enforce company policy decisions. If that doesn’t work, this is also something that should be escalated to TL’s manager. I’m sure AAM archives can provide some scripts, but intentional policy violation is not something you want to be party to, and if a copy-less original breaks and higher ups find out the whole team knew there was an ongoing policy issue and didn’t escalate it, well – that’s not a good look for any of the team members.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Or, alternatively, if you have a good manager who is not TL, start by raising the issue with her.

        1. Brownie*

          Very good idea, there’s one who’s accessible and in today. I think I’ll go talk to her as you’re completely right that knowing about the violation and not escalating it is going to reflect very badly on me and the other team members. Hopefully she’ll be able to help my TL actually manage instead of their habit of actively avoiding conflict.

      2. Kathenus*

        Great advice. And make sure to do it or follow it up by email so there’s a written record that you brought this up to your TL.

    2. Thlayli*

      Each time it happens Ask the team leader to put it in writing to you that that specific teapot does not need a copy. Tell her you need this in writing because if you are caught not following protocol you will get in trouble, and you want evidence that you were told to ignore protocol in that instance. That should start the conversation at least!

  69. Asperger Hare*

    Two interviews and two rejections. Boo!

    However, fingers crossed for my forthcoming interview next week. This time I think I’m going to tell them I have Aspergers. It’s for an IT job where the skills required are very analytical and saying “I have Aspergers” would be a positive shorthand for the skills they’re looking for. Obviously I’m also going to expand on that, but this time I think I can really be myself.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would actually advise you not to do that. You should focus on your skills and even some of your personality traits, but Aspergers is not necessarily a shorthand; it can present differently in different people. You also risk your interviewer not understanding or misjudging what it means to have Aspergers. I think you should absolutely be yourself, but describe yourself with adjectives rather than the “Aspergers” noun. For example, “I pay close attention to detail,” “I’m very analytical,” “I’m very good at working with large sets of data.”

      Good luck on your interview!

      1. Asperger Hare*

        Thanks for the advice; I really appreciate it.

        I think you’re right. Saying “I’m autistic” won’t communicate all the things I think/hope it will. I’m just so frustrated at it feeling like a terrible secret that I have to hide if I want to be selected for a job, but that’s not the way to deal with it.

        I’m going to try to brainstorm some evidence of analytical and data-based skills from my previous jobs.

        1. Artemesia*

          I would go with ‘obsessive about detail’, ‘I really am most comfortable with highly structured detail oriented jobs like this’, ‘I am very careful with procedures and pay attention to detail.’ Autistic has all sorts of baggage you don’t want to lead with and the parts of it that make you particularly suited for the task can be described without the disability terminology.

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with ALB. They also aren’t going to be comfortable on their end with using that as a reason to hire you. Be yourself, but understand the discomfort with clinical labels on the hiring side.

    3. Thlayli*

      Pretty sure it would be illegal for them to hire you on the basis that you have a disability! You should certainly describe the traits you have that make you a good match, but you don’t need to label them. And as pp said, aspergers prsents very differently in different people. Someone else with Aspergers could be a terrible fit for the position, so it doesn’t really tell them what they need to know anyway.

  70. Alpha Bravo*

    This has been an interesting week. I had to share. Sorry for the length but if you enjoy an amusing story about bad-boss comeuppance read on.

    Background: I worked for a nonprofit for nearly 10 years. My position combined administrative support functions with acting as quality manager. I say “acting as” because while I performed all the functions of that role, this was a union organization with a very clear bright line between “management” and “worker,” and I was definitely on the “worker” side of that line. So I was responsible for operating our quality management system, but I was not a manager. In fact, I was the architect of said system, appointed by the former director to do precisely that. In 2015 that director retired. The new director … had other priorities.

    My administrative duties included covering reception and data entry when the regular person was out of the office. Our shifts were staggered so that I was alone the last hour of every day. The regular receptionist was a known slacker with attendance issues and a habit of disappearing for long periods of time during work hours. She was very unstable and had a history of just … going off on people, myself included. She had driven away numerous competent folk before me, but was protected by management for some unknown reason. Sharing office space with her was like living in an explosive arc.

    Couple of years ago, they hired another admin to assist in the back office and act as a floater to cover absences up front. I applied for the position but the director made it clear he wanted me right where I was. New person trained on front office functions, went straight to the back office and that was that. She did not cover when the slacker was gone. It quickly became apparent that her primary focus was sucking up to the boss.

    Last August my husband was diagnosed with stage 4 metastatic lung cancer. I requested a reduced schedule to be able to care for him and take him to his treatments. Director asked for specific documentation which I provided. He never formally approved my request, but the assistant director advised they intended to “work with me” on this. He assured me my work continued to be “exemplary.” I had procedures in place for all the essential functions I performed, and the organization had an identified person to cover those functions. Ultimately I was able to get my administrative work done during the condensed work week, so no additional coverage was needed.

    I was informed by management during this timeframe that there was renewed emphasis on getting our org accredited. (That had been the original intent when I was tasked with developing the quality system.) However, in meeting with the director he made it clear that he felt our QMS had been “driving the work” in the past and that it was NOT going to be that way in the future; it would be the other way around. I tried to explain that a quality system is intended to describe actual workplace practices, and if there is a mismatch the system needs to be revised, and so on. I left that meeting feeling discouraged. Not only was it was obvious that he didn’t understand how a quality system works, it also appeared he felt it to be some kind of threat to his authority.

    My husband died in late October. I had cared for him during a ravaging illness and brutal treatment regimens and was beside him throughout a long, ugly death. I had (have) PTSD. I’m working through it, but it’s been debilitating enough that I missed six weeks of work. I communicated with management and my team on a daily basis via email. Absolute radio silence from the boss. The week before Christmas, he laid me off. Via UPS. When I finally received the letter it said my position had been eliminated due to my absence. I inferred that the position “eliminated” was the QA part of the job, as the administrative support functions were necessary for the business to operate. I figured the designated floater would be taking over those duties. My union business manager asked if I wanted him to follow up; our contract calls for progressive discipline prior to termination (except in egregious cases). Since the prize should I prevail would have been returning to work for this clown, I declined.

    Now for the punchline. Monday afternoon I got an email from the director with a job posting attached (generic – and recycled – admin assistant req), asking me if I would like to come back to work. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. I have friends who still work there so I asked a few questions. Turns out Slacker fell down the back stairs and broke a rib. She’s out for at least a month, and apparently Suckup can’t handle the front office by herself, even with help from the person in the next office over. Evidently they were struggling to keep things going even when both of them were at work. When it comes to slackers in a small office, there can be only one! Morale is at an all time low. As one beleaguered former coworker put it, “We miss you, but it’s toxic.”

    I sent this reply to the director’s email: “Hi Dick, while I appreciate your kind offer, I have committed to another project. Thanks for thinking of me, and good luck in your search.”

    Not gonna lie, I’m kinda loving the logical consequences. :D Happy Friday everyone!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      So sorry for your loss, but that’s a great bad boss story!

      I hope his name wasn’t Dick. :D

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I can’t believe they had the gall to ask you to come back after treating you so poorly!

      1. Alpha Bravo*

        Right? I laughed SO HARD when I got his email. That’s desperation right there. The beauty of it is, this is all on him. These are the results of decisions he made.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I’m glad you were in a position where you could say no. You do not need that toxicity in your life.

    3. No Green No Haze*

      When it comes to slackers in a small office, there can be only one!

      This should be on an inspirational poster.

      1. Alpha Bravo*

        Thanks guys. I gave the ugly details of my spouse’s passing mostly to place the circumstances of the termination in context. Your “HA!” made me chuckle again. And Amy – YES! So very grateful I am in a position to decline. I just needed to share this; poetic justice, when it happens, is a beautiful thing.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I was just thinking “poetic justice”. hee-hee-hee.
          Time is kind, Alpha, and sometimes Time is Very Kind.

          Glad you have this new story to go up against a tiny portion of that trauma you endured.

        2. WonderingHowIGotHere*

          Karma isn’t always a b-vord!
          Sorry for your loss, happy for your story resolutionresolution

  71. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    My co-worker, who is constantly negative, complains all the time and can’t do half of her job duties competently was just given a company-wide award that comes with a small bonus. *headdesk*

    On the good side, this is the longest (a couple of hours so far) I’ve ever heard her go without bitching about something, so there is that.

    1. Enough*

      Is this one of those awards that can never be given twice to the same person and/or for the same type of work? My husband worked for state government where it had to always be someone new so eventually you ran out of competent people to give it to and had to find something to qualify the employee for. So it would go to Joe who “worked” on important project.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        Sadly, no. I honestly think they gave it to her so she would feel appreciated and thus stop complaining about how much everything sucks. It lasted just shy of 2 hours.

  72. Applesauced*

    What do you write in the body of an email submitting an application for an internal program?

    Right now I have:
    “Hello (name) Attached is my application for the 2018 program; feel free to reach out if you have any questions.
    Thank you for the consideration, and good luck in the selection process! Best, (name)”

    2. DMLT*

      Treat it just like a cover letter, IMO. That message shows zero enthusiasm or interest in the position. Comes off as very Blah, here you go.

      1. Murphy*

        I didn’t read the question as talking about a job application though.

        When I get applications like that through email, I’m the only one that sees it, and I’m pretty focused on checking the application for completeness. I download the applications and then pass them along to the selection committee.

        1. DMLT*

          An application is an application. Might not be for a job, doesn’t mean you should be blah and boring when communicating with those considering your application.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I don’t like people telling me to feel free to contact them when they’re the ones who want something from me (sorry).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I have written something similar, and I hope it’s read as “if you find I’m missing any key information, I’m happy to supply it, just let me know.”

    4. Sualah*

      What kind of program? What is on the application itself? Who is it going to?

      If it’s a very generic application, I’d probably take the opportunity to send an email like a cover letter, conveying my enthusiasm for the position. If the application was more like…a college application, where you already explained why you want to try this program, I’d leave the email fairly simple, like you have. If the email is going to a real person who will be sorting/forwarding these on, I’d make it a little more personalized. If the email will be separated from the application attachment anyway, I wouldn’t spend too much time on the email.

      Good luck!

  73. pat benetardis*

    This is a vent. I have an employee who is really pushing for a promotion, makes comments when other people get promoted, etc. in fact, there are limited reasons why/when someone can be promoted in this organization, particularly when the employee isn’t changing roles.

    This person could fill a job at the higher level, however, has a tendency to only complete the highest priority tasks. I am irritated because she regularly misses response deadlines from my boss and on tasks that are also important, but not necessarily project related.

    This person is salaried and this is not, for most of us, a 40 hours/week workplace. But she almost always just works the 40, unless there are extreme circumstances. Whereas an extra hour here and there (at Home is fine) would probably get the work done.

    So am I wrong to be peeved that someone who works less hours than others at her level, who doesn’t complete certain tasks (in a very visible way), continued to snark about her not having been promoted? Especially when I am willing to promote her but it’s known that I can’t just now, but can in the future?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      How clear have you been with her about the problems with her work? If you haven’t had a direct conversation with her, you’ve got to do that before you really have standing to be very annoyed.

      1. Snark*

        This. “I can promote you, but just not now” sounds like “if I gumption it, I can maybe move the timeline forward.” She needs to know exactly why she is not a candidate for promotion, what she’d need to do to get there, and how long she’d need to demonstrate that performance level before she’s there. And that conversation needs to be specific and direct – no hints, no “well of course she knows she missed that deadline, and anybody should notice others work more” assumptions, no overly padded, in the moment feedback.

      2. pat benetardis*

        Awesome, thanks for your reply. I have had very direct conversations about the missed deadlines and/or vagueness. I have asked to be told when something isn’t going to be completed in the agree upon timeframe. Usually I will say that it’s fine because something else came up, but what is not fine is for the task to go into a black hole of “I’m going to ge to that in an unspecified timeframe.” Because now something the big boss asked us to look into has been 4 months and it’s going to come up soon.

        Anyway I am very direct and am going to have a follow up conversation about it. Meanwhile, it’s not these issues that have kept the promotion from happening. However they may be contributing to it not being accelerated (among many other factors).

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          This might just be the language you’re using here and not the language you’ve used with her, but keep in mind there’s a difference between “tell me when something isn’t going to be on time” and “I’m concerned about your pattern of you missing deadlines — what are you going to do to get this under control so it doesn’t continue?”

    2. The Person from the Resume*

      No, but you should give her the specific feedback because you shouldn’t even promote someone who misses reasonable deadlines.

      – Tendency to only complete the highest priority tasks.
      – Regularly misses response deadlines from my boss and on tasks that are also important
      – works a strict 40 hours only in an exempt job and fails to complete tasks because of it

    3. Snark*

      Not only are you not wrong to be peeved about it, you wouldn’t be wrong to sit her down and have a very frank conversation. This sounds like someone who’s getting resentful about not getting promoted – I imagine because they view promotion as a seniority thing, not a performance thing – but still has performance issues.

      “I’ve noticed that you’re pushing really hard for a promotion, and tend to make comments when others are promoted. Promotions are generally awarded to people who are exeeding expectations in their current role. Right now, you aren’t. You’ve missed several response deadlines and tend to avoid X, Y, and Z-type tasks that aren’t directly project related, but are important. Until and unless you show a solid [timeframe] without missing a response deadline and proactively tackling X, Y, and Z tasks as well as high-priority , you would not be a candidate for a promotion. Would you like to discuss some ways I think you could improve your performance to a level where I’d be comfortable promoting you?” And then discuss putting in some more time, if necessary, and other feedback.

      1. pat benetardis*

        Argh! I typed out an answer and it disappeared. The thing is, I would not rate this person below expectations over this. Because the project results are good.
        But what I will do is have a frank conversation about the patterns of behavior that I’m not happy with. And separate out the promotion conversation, but ask that the snark stop.

        This person would qualify for a next level up position in a related department (and I would support but also disclose the things that are pitfalls).
        And I am annoyed that she gives me this pressure but does these things that annoy me. So I will make it a priority to get them corrected. One a time, it’s fine that things are missed, delayed whatever. But the pattern (thanks Alison for the wording!) is highly irritating.

        1. NW Mossy*

          At the risk of sounding a bit blunt, is this employee truly meeting expectations? It sounds like you (quite reasonably) expect that deadlines are met consistently, and this employee doesn’t.

          Consider, too, that meeting deadlines across the board is likely to be an expectation of the level-up role as well. If you put her forward for it and she continues the same missing-deadline behavior, is that going to be acceptable to her new boss? Will she be considered a high performer there if she does this?

          The best thing you can do for her now is to name this behavior for what it is and see if she can and will change. How she does with the feedback will tell you a lot about whether she’s truly ready to move up (i.e., she takes the feedback well and changes positively) or not (i.e., she rejects the feedback and doesn’t change).

        2. Snark*

          “The thing is, I would not rate this person below expectations over this. ”

          You wouldn’t? Because missing deadlines and neglecting important work, without communication….that sounds very much like not meeting expectations, and a performance issue.

    5. Cyclatrol*

      I find myself wondering if this person might take pride in how they prioritize their workload to handle the truly important tasks, while letting ‘unimportant’ tasks slide. Have any of their late / incomplete work items ever caused significant consequences to the company?

      I agree that you need to have a Come To Jesus meeting with this person, but I think you need to be careful what you tell them about what they need to do to be promoted. I don’t know what your company is like, but at mine, the path to promotion is *never* as simple as “do A, B, and C and you will be promoted.” If you tell this person “to get promoted, you need to do A plus B plus C plus D,” they will likely come back to you a month or a year later and say “Okay, I’ve been doing A, B, C, and D like you told me – where’s my promotion?”

      Again, I don’t know what your company is like, and it is up to you whether or not you feel this person is worth the extra work involved in this, but if I were you, I would consider working with them to put together a ‘promotion plan’, where this plan involves educating them on how promotion works (including possible FAILs), what you’ll do to assist in getting them promoted, and what *they* need to do to get promoted, and a target date. Have them write it up, you review it carefully, and then set up a quarterly meeting to discuss and track progress.

  74. rosenstock*

    does anyone have experience with moving from the corporate realm to non-profit, w/r/t law? i’ve been working at a corporate law firm for 1 year (and plan on staying for 3 years total) as a paralegal doing litigation and am getting pretty good at it, but i have always wanted to work in non-profit law. is the corporate litigation thing considered applicable to non-profit law? litigation itself is pretty standard but idk how different these two realms are in practice.

  75. Dee Dee*

    Is there some management technique that’s being used whereby you only ask questions in a 1:1?

    All the managers had some all-day training session last week. I had my regular 1:1 the next day and I swear I heard no declarative statements—only questions. “Why do you think that happened? What do you think we could do about that?”

    I hated it. I felt like he was trying to trap me or something.

    1. DDJ*

      Sounds like it might have been “Situational Leadership.” Maybe not, but it does sound familiar, particularly the phrasing of the questions.

      The point isn’t to “only” ask questions in a 1:1, but, based on the level of experience/competence of the employee, it’s a method that can help the employee come to their own conclusions. It’s about giving you some accountability for problem-solving, increasing your confidence in your role, and ensuring your buy-in, among other things.

      Now, this particular method is one to be used with higher-level performers, who are competent in their roles, but who may lack confidence. When used properly, it can help to drive someone toward being a highly-skilled, competent, confident employee. If you’re not at that level, you may need to ask your boss for some more direction.

      But it could actually be a good sign that you’re boss is asking you these types of questions.

  76. So little to do, so much time*

    Im not sure how to phrase this question and I think I may just be ranting, but here goes: i feel like I’m getting less and less assigned to me, and my job description is shrinking. It’s gotten to the point that I’m bored at work and don’t have enough to do; while job descriptions ask for “x years of progressive responsibility”, I’m getting…regressive responsibility. How can I address this?

    Part of this has to due with reorganization at my company, above my head: new people are coming in and (accidentally?) setting up projects that exclude me, even though I’ve been involved in similar projects in the past.

    So, that’s frustrating, but it’s out of my control. I don’t understand the other part of what’s going on at all. I suggest projects to my boss; he says “that’s great, let’s have *other person who is not me* do that”. Or, when a project is assigned to me I often I get stuck because I don’t have system permissions/access to do the work; when I ask for the access, I get denied. Then the project dies.

    My boss gives feedback on the work I do manage to complete, and it’s always positive. I don’t think I’m not being given work because I’m a bad worker…although at this point, it feels that way!
    I would say that they’re simply trying to phase me out; for a variety of reasons, I’ve made it clear that I’ll be leaving the department (and possibly the company) in about 6 months. My boss is as supportive of this as a boss can be, and I would understand not investing in training or putting me on long term projects But, 6 months is a long time from now, and I could be doing a lot of work! Plus, I’ve been told that I will train my replacement when the time comes. It’s getting to the point that I don’t know what I will train this person is or why they’re hiring a replacement at all.

    I guess I need to have a direct conversation with my boss. What should I say to avoid whining…or putting my job in jeopardy? Should I grin and bear it for the next 6 months?

    1. As Close As Breakfast*

      It sort of sounds like the epitome of why you don’t give long notices. Not knowing the reason or details of why you’ve “made it clear that I’ll be leaving the department (and possibly the company) in about 6 months” I can’t say that for sure, but it does sound like this may at least be a contributing factor. I agree with you that 6 months is a somewhat considerable amount of time, and a lot of work can be done in 6 months. But just knowing someone is going to leave changes your mindset about that person. I can easily see the thinking in the cases you described as being “I’m not going to assign this to or even include ‘So little to do, so much time’ on this cause they’re leaving. I’ll just do it myself or have so-and-so do it until we get the new person in here.” You become the person who is leaving and the time frame that’s happening in can easily become incidental and basically irrelevant. All that said, is it possible to treat all of your remaining time as a long transition? Think of and treat it as a time to set up for the next person? If this is all a new responsibility regression (particularly if just since giving notice) I would view it all as transitioning out of the position and I would think it was valid to represent it that way going forward when interviewing or the like.

  78. Anxa*

    In summary, I have a job offer I need to accept or decline by lunch today, and I’m still undecided about it. The offer is from a satellite branch of a county employer, and I really don’t want to burn this bridge. I had mentioned this scenario in the Jan 12 open thread.

    I received the offer yesterday. I said I would like some time to think about it. They seem really anxious to hear back ASAP. I feel rushed, which is weird because I applied over a month ago, and have had 2 weeks since the interview. I’m still undecided and also couldn’t properly process an impending job offer while it was hypothetical. This is the first interview for a FTE job that resulted in an offer and I just didn’t believe I was really a contender for the job until my current boss (and reference) talked to me about the phone call earlier this week.

    When I applied to the position I applied to 2 positions at the same local government agency. What I didn’t see (due to a formatting error in the ad) was that this job was not located at the main office (7 min drive), but at a satellite (35-65 min drive) one. I also didn’t know much about the position until I got the interview. So basically, I learned a few facts about the job that made it a poor fit: an early morning start time, a longer commute than I expected, and I would be in a division I had no specific passion or real experience in. But I also walked away from the interview feeling warmly about the interviewers, looking at the potential good things.

    But that was also over 2 weeks ago and I work at a college. I applied as a semester was winding down, interviewed while on break, and now I have the offer after I’ve already started Spring semester. Not just as an employee, but a student (sunk cost of tuition is not much of an issue). I hadn’t mentioned being in school during my interview. Last summer/fall I applied to several jobs in this field but no offers, and then decided to proceed with school and yet another career shift. Perhaps I threw in the towel too early, because although I spent years trying to break into the field, I had only just last year started to make real progress, even getting some FT job interviews. But I did find that there were aspects to the sort of work I did that didn’t match my personality well. The first year of school I only have class once a week; next year it will be a full-time program. It felt like an insurance policy. “Maybe once I commit to classes, the new monkey wrench will be a job offer…that’s a good problem to have.” “Well, this whole X thing doesn’t seem to be working out, plus you started living for the weekends and counting down the weeks until your summer job in X field was over….maybe Y is a better fit after all.” I had originally planned to drop at of school for a job if I had the opportunity, and now it’s much harder than I thought.

    This should feel like a great opportunity to me, but it feels like a huge step in the wrong direction. I think I applied to this almost out of habit. For so long that’s what I had wanted! And I think there was a little bit of a lag after I started classes to realize that those classes weren’t just a backup plan but were reflective of where I really wanted to head. And again, I’ve spent about over a month since I applied researching and getting emotionally attached to my new career training program.

    If I thought my career dreams were realistic, I think I’d turn this down, hope to get a decent second job or an overnight job until school is over, and hold out for a job I’m excited for. But it took me 9 years to get this far, what if it takes another 9? Or even just another 2? Also! I’m running out of time before I can commit to a traditional FTE job. I will probably be moving out of the area in Sept 2019. I don’t want to job hop from my first FTE.

    I haven’t slept in days and I’m sick to my stomach over the thought of accepting or turning down this job. My gut says no, no, no! My brain is saying full-time job, benefits, that this is my big chance, that it’s my time to make good on my degrees and change my life story! And my heart is wondering if this is the move I need to make to moves on my personal life (financial independence, a nest egg, stability to consider options for having kids).

    I wonder if what I’m really looking for is an alternative to saying yes tomorrow that makes sense. Some may say that’s my answer right there! If you’re looking for a way out…

    If I don’t burn a bridge by turning this down, I think I can always apply to this field. It seems as though the summer job I took has really strengthened my resume and that in this state the jobs are available. I’ll be a less fresh candidate, but I’m not going to become less qualified. If I remain a student, I think there’s a good chance I can work another summer job in this field and remain a viable candidate.

    If I do turn down this job, is it already burning a bridge since I didn’t pull myself out of the running because I had doubts? I was kind of hoping for more information on the the start time (it’s still vague, but it’s a huge consideration with public transit) and it’s only been since classes resumed that I felt more committed to my current program (and job). Since my main reason for turning the job wouldn’t over negotiable logistics, why couldn’t I have just make this decision earlier? Is it reasonable to just need to know the offer is real for a few hours before accepting?

    I feel like I’m more interested in turning down the job without closing the door permanently than making my decision as to what’s the best move for me.

    It’s only been recently that my financial situation has stabilized to the point that I can consider taking the risk that one of flexible shift full time positions I applied for will work out.

    1. dr_silverware*

      Look: it is clear to me that you do not want to take this job. And you’re also afraid of the consequences of turning down the job, but that is not reason enough to take the job.

      You have plenty of life left. It’s a risk that this employer may be annoyed if you turn down the job and you’ll have to put some extra work into convincing them you’re serious if you apply again, but it’s a risk, as opposed to your “I don’t want this” certainty.

      A possible script for turning it down: “Thank you for your patience. I love this organization/department/whatever and the job still looks great, but I’m afraid I have to turn it down–I’ve realized it’s not the right time. Thank you so much for your time.”

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Congratulations on the offer.

      Honestly, I think I would take it. If this is your first FT opportunity in that field, you don’t really know what you’re walking away from. Unless you’re in a competitive program, I would think the school opportunity would be there later, too. I understand wanting to move towards your final destination and not having to “waste” time in this job then go back to school in, say, the fall and feel like you could be closer to being done with school if you had made the “right” choice, if this job doesn’t work out. But, it could turn out great. This would be the way to shut the door on that opportunity and career path forever and be confident going back to school is the right choice.

    3. Anxa*

      Update!

      I declined the offer.

      I had plenty of time to think about it in the abstract, but since I would be walking away from my current path, I really needed a little more time to process the reality of switching directions. I think that I probably would have accepted the position had they not seemed to want an answer so quickly, as I was warming up the idea of letting go of my mental investments in this semester.

      But, I wasn’t positive that I wanted it, so I didn’t want to drag out the process if I were going to say no. It went better than expected.

      Career wise, this was probably a very stupid decision. But I am surprised by myself that I didn’t go for the first job to take me. For yeeeaaaars I would have jumped at ANYTHING. It may be naive and backfire later, but it feels like I just took a major step in taking risks, being optimistic, and having …not confidence, but…. believing I owe it myself to try to find a good fit first.

      1. Overeducated*

        Wow…you updated before I even finished my comment! Since your decision is made, you’ve taken your big step, and you’re committing to a path, I wish you the best of luck in the new direction!

        1. Anxa*

          I shouldn’t have updated so soon! I always appreciate your comments.

          I think more than anything, this experience is putting a fire under my butt to just put myself out there more. I might regret not taking a job in this field sooner for practical reasons (soo, soo many practical reasons): The money, the stability, the fact that I don’t want to do it forever so best to get the experience out of the way earlier to recertify my license than pivot from it, that I could have 20 years experience in a related field, try to return, and still start at the entry level position, etc.

  79. It's bananas*

    Compartmentalizing. anybody have any tips for doing this after a long, stressful day at work? How do you not bring this home with you?

    1. faces of the moose*

      Is there any time/opportunity to do some sort of activity after work and before you go home? (Quick gym session? Brief stop at a cafe? Window shopping at your favourite store?). Sometimes breaking up the work/home part helps a bit.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        Seconding this – I always drop into our new flat that we’re refurbishing before I go home-home and spend twenty minutes doing something useful like sanding or painting. I can work through the day in my head then head back home with a clear mind. A stop off on the way home, even just for a coffee, with time to think things over, is really helpful.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I have about a 40 minute commute on public transit to get home. I usually listen to entertainment audio books (i.e. NON-work related content). I find this really, really helps me disengage from work.

      To make that compartmentalizing stick, I make a to do list for the next day in my outlook calendar before I leave the office. Didn’t get to an email? It’s on the list. Need to confirm status for a project? On the list. Anything that I feel is lingering from the work day, I put on the list, then give myself permission to NOT THINK ABOUT IT until I get back to the office the next day. If some work thing tries to insert itself into my brain once I’m home, I just remind myself – “It’s on the list, I can’t do anything constructive about it right now” and release it back into not-my-brain-space.

      Every once in a while I may remember something that should have been on my list. When that happens I open my personal email Subject line: “Reminder” and but the brief bullet point item in the body and send it to my work email. I’ll add it to the list in the morning, and can carry on not thinking about it for the rest of the night.

    3. clarie*

      When I was having a particularly tough time at work, I asked my partner at the time to not ask me about how work was going/how my day went, because I inevitably ended up going on a long rant that left both of us feeling bad.

      Otherwise, it helped to remind myself that a) my work wasn’t brain surgery – everyone was alive and well, and we were pretty much doing our jobs perfectly well and b) I couldn’t control how other people decided to behave, only how I approached my work.

      Hope that helps!

      1. Mints*

        Yeah, this is partially from working childcare and finance early on, but I don’t think anything at my job is THAT big of a deal. Not that I’m flippant at work, but I used to have children’s lives in my care. Like yeah, it looked like hanging out in a park but they’re literally the most important thing in their parents’ lives. And finance, I could hypothetically go to jail if there was something wrong enough. So now like, if my spreadsheet isn’t working, I always can do it tomorrow.

        Also, it’s nice to have concrete things to look forward to. Instead of musing on work problems during the commute home, you can meal plan dinner, or think about the book you’re reading, or listen to movie review podcasts, plan your outfit for the party tomorrow. Whatever. It’s fun to stew in good vibes, but miserable to replay problems.

    4. Lynca*

      People ask me why I tolerate an hour commute. This is why. I pump up the radio and have a peaceful drive. I enjoy driving so it keeps me from bringing stress home.

    5. GarlicMicrowaver*

      I struggle with this, too. I do yoga, meditate, drink green tea, etc. etc. But my mind does not turn off.

    6. Snark*

      I have two mechanisms here, one healthier than the other.

      a) I keep some trail-running clothes in my car, as appropriate for the season. My son’s daycare is very close to a trailhead, so sometimes I’ll change, do a 2-mile loop as hard as I can, then pick up the boy. This helps when I have the hamster wheel going in my brain.

      b) If all else fails, there’s a lovely little microbrewery three minutes from my house. They know my name, their IPAs are on point, and they have no TVs, so either I can start a friendly chat with a fellow beer nerd, or quietly sip my pint with no yammering distractions, as the spirit moves me. This is more when I just need some time to ease into a relaxed Dada mindset where I can have a conversation about purple robot cats.

    7. Not Today Satan*

      The only thing that really helps me is losing myself in a page-turner or trashy novel. But I literally have OCD so my capacity to obsess knows no bounds, lol.

    8. Fiddlesticks*

      This actually took me years to learn, and I think I had limited success with it when I was in a role that whether or not I took it home with me, the job was an on-call 24/7 type of gig.

      I tried a lot of stuff (gym/diversions/etc) but ultimately what worked for me was relentless organization. So much of my work unhappiness and anxiety was rooted in continuously revisiting topics that I would have to address in a day or two, or a week or two, or first thing the next day, and since my work organization system was basically the vast abyss of my inbox, I would be doing the completely unmanageable (to me) feat of somehow relaxing while also trying to remember everything I needed to do for the next few days.

      And then I just started to viciously document and organize. Any task that came in that I could do in less than 5 minutes, I would do immediately, and I started blocking in and setting up digital reminders for longer-term tasks and immediately memory dump the item if it didn’t require me to address it that day or even in the short horizon. If I had email that needed a response, I would send it, and then put a note in my calendar to ping me to follow up in 24 hrs/48 hrs/whatever was appropriate if I hadn’t already heard, and also memory dump that. For next day tasks, I defaulted to paper lists, since it always felt more tangible, and I have a collection of notebooks spanning years now of daily meeting notes and day-to-day to do lists that I work through.

      It boiled down to a complete external memory dump for me. The less I, personally, carried in my head about work and left at the office either via digital shift reminders, paper lists, or whatever works best for you, you know that you already set yourself up to handle this in the future, and you don’t need to think about it anymore. It freed up SO much headspace for me, despite the irritating self-training period to take up this process. The side benefit is that you’re building a ton of documentation, should anyone ever need to pick up on one of your work processes, or in review times you need to consult your history of accomplishments throughout the year to discuss how you did!

    9. As Close As Breakfast*

      Ok, so this might sound weird but… I scream in my car on my commute home. Just on really bad days or when there is something just bubbling inside me from work and I have to let it out. So yeah, I’ll let out a couple of really deep, long, soul cleansing screams. I figure driving down the freeway no one is looking at me and no one can hear me so I really let it rip like I’m just tripped over a root in a foggy forest in the middle of a moonless night only to roll over and find the chainsaw wielding clown is leaning over me.

      It helps. It helps ME. I swear. I’m ok.

    10. Triple Anon*

      I have the opposite problem. I over compartmentalize. I’m a different person at work than I am outside of work and the two don’t even remember what the other did and what’s going on in the other’s world. “Good to see you, Triple. What did you do this weekend?” “I have no idea. Sunshine? Flowers? How about you?”

      Ok, it’s not quite that bad. But almost.

      I don’t know if this can be done intentionally, but try thinking of your job as a role that you play. On your way to work, get in character. On your way out, return to being yourself. Treat it like an acting gig. Then the work problems become the character’s problems and you can just let it all go and unwind.

  80. Starley*

    My husband and I are in the process of opening a business, and I solemnly swear before the AAM commentariat that our small, family-owned business will have proper HR and high standards for professionalism and performance regardless of DNA. Those of you who have owned or worked for family businesses before, what suggestions do you have for making sure non-family employees feel treated fairly? Or what problems did you run into? We are going to be hiring a non-family HR person to start out since we don’t have a ton of experience outside of hiring/managing and we’d like to have someone more neutral that people can go to with problems to start with so I hope that takes care of some issues I’ve heard of in the past.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Hiring an outside HR person is a great start. :)

      Speaking as a former employee of small/family businesses, I’d say remember that while this business may be your passion, to your employees, it will just be a job. Even if they are great and enthusiastic workers, most of them are not on a mission; they are there for a paycheck. Don’t expect them to feel the same way about it as you do. So:

      –If one of them needs / wants to leave the company, don’t take it personally. It’s business.

      –Cross train people if possible. Nobody should feel they can’t stay home if they’re deathly ill because there is nobody to cover their work.

      –I don’t know what kind of business it is, so this may not apply, but I found that I worked much better when my managers let me decide how I would manage my own workload. The good ones touched base once in a while but didn’t dictate every little thing.
      This probably wouldn’t apply to teapot production workers who may have to do things a certain way for safety or efficiency. So if you find yourself tempted to micromanage, step back and ask yourself, “Is Fergus’s spout department task schedule detrimental to deadlines and output, or am I just bugged about it because I wouldn’t do it his way?”

      –If people are interested in professional development , whether you provide it (coffee webinars) or they pursue it separately (a degree in espresso management), support that, even if it means they will move away from you. A good boss wants their employees to excel.

      That’s all I have.

      1. Starley*

        That is all so helpful, thank you! Remembering that it’s just a job for people is going to be the hardest part, I think. This advice and the couple of letters lately about managers feeling betrayed by their employees are a good reminder. Most of our jobs are going to be fairly low skill without much room for advancement (think retail/food service level) and we expect a lot of turnover. If we get a year out of people I’ll be happy. I don’t know what we can really do for professional development, but if we are successful enough down the road maybe a college a tuition reimbursement program would be good? I’d love to see people be able to move into a more rewarding career, even if it’s not with us.

        Great point on staying home, these aren’t the types of jobs that typically offer sick leave in our area, but I’m going to put together a policy right now. Nobody should be afraid to call in or miss out on money they really need.

        1. Natalie*

          If it is actually food service, there’s things like ServSafe certification that people can use in future jobs.

    2. Natalie*

      I like all of Elizabeth West’s suggestions, and I have one more, if you have kids or might have kids:

      Probably don’t hire your kids.

      The probably is there because if one of your kids is very [industry]-minded and is planning on taking over the business someday, then obviously it makes sense to bring them in. But what I’ve seen fairly often is someone creating a cushy job for their kid with way above market salary/benefits/expectations, and that can really breed resentment among other staff members. If you want to give your kids a bunch of money to do nothing, just write them a damn check!

      1. Starley*

        Thanks for this and the ServSafe recommendation, we’ll look into that. We are child-free but our nephews would like to work for us down the road. We planned to start them at the bottom. Maybe that’s a bad idea altogether, or we should at least tell them they need to get a few years of experience somewhere else first.

        1. Natalie*

          Since you mentioned food service/retail I’ll say that is probably different than what I’ve seen, which are in offices where some obscure and not entirely needed position is dreamed up for the kid. If your nephews are two people out of your crew of 10 counter servers, it’s much easier to ensure you are treating them the same since you have peers to measure them against and presumably everyone will get the same pay and bennies. And who knows, maybe by that time you’ll have a manager that can be between you and them.

    3. Brownie*

      Boundaries. Family business stays at home, don’t let it interfere or take over at the office. Don’t try to make your employees part of the family, instead make yourself part of the business. This goes extra double for any controversial or volatile topics such as politics & religion; keep them out of the business if the business doesn’t rely on or have anything to do with those topics.

      If you can’t offer time and a half for overtime or other benefits associated with larger companies then offer flex time. This is especially true if there’s work taking place on weekends or major holidays. The morale dip from not getting time and a half can be overwritten with good management and by showing appreciation. Even something as small as a thank you email and doughnuts for the office on a Monday works as it shows acknowledgement and effort by the owners to recognize what was done.

      Don’t be a penny-pincher with the small stuff. Little things like the $12 box of nicer click pens versus the $6 box of cheap capped pens makes a huge difference in how happy employees are to stay at smaller family-run businesses who can’t offer the benefits that a larger company could. Take a look at the Jan. 18th, 2018 AAM thread about items which make people happier at work for inspiration. It’s amazing how a small (for the company) purchase can increase employee happiness and productivity. Conversely there’s a huge morale hit with making your employees use their own time and money to buy critical office supplies, such as paper, even if there’s reimbursement for the supplies.

      Never say to an employee that something won’t be provided to them simply because there’s no legal requirement to do so. Be honest with your employees that there’s another reason (finances usually) which prevent the benefit from being offered. Honesty goes a very long way toward keeping employees in situations where otherwise they might leave for higher pay or more benefits. Same with feedback about how the company is doing. Be honest and let the employees know if there’s something wrong because not only do they deserve to know so they can plan their future, but because they may have ideas or contacts which could help the company.

      (All of the above are from either my or my family members’ experiences with being employees of small & family run businesses.)

      1. Natalie*

        Nonmonetary compensation for overtime is illegal and can result in expensive fines. If you can’t afford time and a half for OT, then your non-exempt employees cannot work OT, period.

        1. Brownie*

          Depends on the size of the business and where they are located. I used to work for a less than 5 person company in Washington State and the rules there didn’t apply to a company so small, so I wasn’t legally obligated to time and a half for OT, only my regular hourly rate. Employees still have to be paid, it’s just that the company may not be legally obligated to pay time and a half because they’re so small that the law has a loophole for them.

          1. Natalie*

            Incorrect. The Fair Labor Standards Act does not have a minimum threshold business size, it applies to all businesses. I couldn’t find any contrary Washington state law, but even if one exists they’re not allowed to be less generous than the federal minimum.

            There are some laws that exempt small businesses, but minimum wage and overtime do not. Depending on how long ago this was you may be able to file a wage claim and get back pay.

              1. Brownie*

                *jawdrop*
                Most workers who are paid an hourly wage and work more than 40 hours in a 7-day work week must be paid overtime. When paying overtime, a business must pay at least one and one-half times the worker’s regular hourly rate… The business must pay overtime no matter how many workers it employs.

                There are many things running through my head right now that aren’t appropriate for professional environments. It’s sadly been 4 years now since that job and the company is out of business, so going after back-pay isn’t something I can do. Thank you for correcting me about this! Hand on heart I swear that the printed out regulations my former boss handed me to read said that companies under 5 people were exempt from having to pay time and a half to hourly workers. He always seemed a little off when it came to business matters, but I didn’t know any better at the time. Now it’s clear to me he was playing fast and loose, treating me as some kind of weird combination of hourly and salaried employee. And thinking about the number of 40+ hour weeks I put in, up to and including the 6 years straight I worked 7am until 3am every day from Christmas to New Years… I’m livid. Thank you for setting me straight as to what a slimy bottom-sucker my former boss was.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The rules apply to everyone equally. Don’t let family members get a pass, if you wouldn’t give a pass to a non-family member. OTH, don’t ream a family member in front of others so they can see how fair you are.

      Food service is a rough biz because employees don’t get a huge sense of accomplishment. Serve someone breakfast and they will just want another breakfast tomorrow. Think about what success looks like to you and let the employees know BEFORE they start the job. “Here a successful day looks like _____.” or “We place a high priority on X and that will be on your employee eval. Here’s what we want X to look like_____.”

      And just a tip. If your cash comes up short for a period of time and no one is saying anything it is probably because a family member is stealing it. Don’t torture your employees with endless conversations/threats. Chart out when the thefts occur and match that up to the employee schedule. Yes, that is part of a much larger story.

    5. Anono-me*

      As someone who has worked for family businesses as both the relative and the outsider.

      The two biggest things to remember are: “The rules apply to everyone.” and “Keep work and home separate.”.

      Some examples :
      Do not “let someone go” because your kid doesn’t like where he works and wants to come work for you, since you are not mean and uptight. Your other employees will not be happy about losing a good coworker in exchange for an entitled slacker who can’t be bothered to show up or call in half the time. They will start to job search, especially if you have two other kids who are even more spoiled.

      Don’t expect family to work for free or less or without breaks or in worse conditions because they are family.

      Don’t expect family members to spy on their coworkers.

      Don’t complain about the family employee to other relatives. Don’t complain about other relatives to the family employee at work.

      Somethings that you can do in general to show your employees tjat you care and make them happier.

      Schedule out as far in advance as you can, even if the the week 3 schedule is tentative. That way people can have outside lives.

      As much as possible negotiate with your vendors for discounts for your employees. One place I worked had a large fleet and a corporate account at the auto parts store nearby; we employees could make personal auto parts purchases with cash and get the same discount.

      1. Anono-me*

        PS
        The family member that I would work for again in a heartbeat always had a brief heart to heart with any relatives that wanted a job. Basically it was “You are my darling ____ and I love you dearly. But at work you are teapot assembler #27 and I will boot your butt out the door if you ever try to get away with crap because we are family.”

  81. A. Ham*

    I have a gut feeling that we are headed towards a bit of a PR problem but no one else seems worried about it (not a TOTAL disaster, but when it becomes public the decision will seem, at best, tone deaf considering the current political climate). I have tried to “warn” the PR manager that there might be some backlash, but they have been dismissive. Everyone seems to think that the whole thing is great and that the public will love it. Granted, I do think there will be some positive reactions but not overwhelming which I think is what my colleagues are expecting, and I think we will get questions that we don’t seem prepared for at the moment.

    I can’t give a lot of details, but I am in an industry that (thankfully) has been under a lot of pressure the last 10 or so years to show more diversity and gender parity. Things have improved, but there is still a lot of work to be done. We are the biggest company in the industry in our city, so we are looked upon to be at the forefront. What is about to become public is something that just continues down the straight white male road, unapologetically. As a 30-something woman I am, personally, disappointed in what is going on. It’s possible that because of that I am blowing this all out of proportion, and the public reaction will be just fine… but I don’t think so.
    *I should note that I actually do like the company I work for very much, and overall I have been happy with the progressive decisions that are made and the face that we present to the public. This is the first instance where I feel we have missed the mark*.

    2. Been There, Done That*

      Do they admit even the *possibility* of a negative response? I had success in a previous office by having the handful of people most likely to be fielding questions brainstorm the questions we were likely to get from a couple individuals who hated our branch/agency with a passion and then develop responses to them. For the really resistant manager, it was pitched as a good practice/training exercise to hone our skills on something easy…when that manager got absolutely CLOBBERED at a public meeting, the PR people could jump in with damage control really quickly.

    1. shep*

      I’m not sure how helpful this is, but as the departing employee once, I was happy to give an exit interview because my supervisor made it clear (1) I was very valued and (2) he wanted to bring my feedback to the board/upper management to see what they could do differently to retain people like me in the future (which, incidentally, boiled down to pay and benefits).

      I know that’s highly specific, but I appreciate that he laid out the purpose of the exit interview so clearly. I didn’t feel pressured to give a certain answer and felt like I could be honest with him about why I was leaving.

      (He got in contact with me later and let me know my feedback was instrumental in securing substantial salary increases for people in my old position. Made me feel pretty good.)

    2. Starley*

      It has to be an environment where it’s always been safe to provide feedback and have it taken seriously, even to those above you. If the employee doesn’t trust management to begin with, no promises not to retaliate with a crappy reference will be taken seriously. It’s not going to work to ask when an employee is leaving if the environment hasn’t been conducive to these kinds of suggestions all along. It’s all risk and no reward for the employee at that point.

    3. CatCat*

      Try to see this from the departing employee’s perspective: what on earth is the point of participating?

      If you can come up with answers to that question, that might help you think of an approach. I’ve never seen the point. I was clear with my managers about why I was quitting my last jobs.

    4. DDJ*

      Have the interviews conducted by HR rather than by the departing employee’s manager/supervisor. It’s important for the person conducting the exit interview to be impartial. I mean, yes, you’re hoping to maybe figure out if there are patterns that need to be addressed, or themes through all of the exit interviews, but the absolute worst way to get honest feedback is to include anyone in the exit interview who might be a reference for the exiting employee.

      And they should be anonymous. And not just “we won’t put your name on the feedback when we give it to your former boss.” Don’t, 2 days after the exit interview, give the employee’s former manager a list of things they should consider improving on, “based on some feedback we’ve received.”

      Exit interviews should be conducted on company time, in the office. If you want someone to come in on their own time, or respond to an email or phone call, you’re probably not going to get a great response. I’d assume the interview should be on the last day? I’m not in HR so I can only go off what I’ve seen.

      So: conducted by a third party (not a supervisor/manager), anonymous, and on company time. Those would be my recommendations.

    5. Blue Eagle*

      It might be difficult to get the first person to respond fully and accurately, but if you use that person’s negative comments to adjust/fix the problem, other employees will see that the exit interviews do result in change and will participate accordingly. If you blow off any negative comments and nothing changes, then there is no incentive for future employees to give constructive feedback.

  83. Carms*

    Has anyone here taken a sabbatical/lengthy period of time off? Especially in an industry where sabbaticals are uncommon?
    I’m still pretty young, have only been in the workforce for about 4 years, but find myself thinking about taking time off frequently and want to set a goal of being able to take a few weeks/months off in a few years, preferably before I have kids (I tell myself the time would be for personal writing, but knowing myself I’ll probably end up just road-tripping around the US/Canada and spending time with family). Ideally I’d like to keep my job and just come back to it afterwards – has anyone done that? How did you negotiate it? Or if you quit, how did you explain the gap on your resume? And not to get too much into money, but how did you make it financially feasible?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think it can be done, but it can be costly career wise. I’ve best seen it handled when people do it as part of returning to grad school; there’s an opportunity there to still look good on paper, like you were doing it to advance your career. Especially as someone who wants to take time off with kids later in life, you run the risk of fragmenting your early working years which is when most of the bonuses and promotions happen (I doubled my salary in the first five years of work – that’s not something that keeps happening and wouldn’t have happened if I’d been ducking in and out).

    2. Graciosa*

      A few weeks should be easy – a few months is not.

      How much vacation do you have, and how much will you have in a few years? It’s not uncommon for professional positions to start with 2 weeks of vacation at the entry level, and progress to 3 weeks at 5 years (higher levels at my company were hired in with at least 3 before we switched to “unlimited”).

      I’ve had employees plan vacation around the holidays and across 2 calendar years to get long stretches (for example, 3 weeks of vacation in old year plus a week of corporate holiday followed by 3 weeks of vacation in new year = 7 weeks for a long international trip). I had to get a few special approvals to allow this, but I did it.

      As a manager, I am pretty supportive of vacation (I think people need blocks of at least 2 weeks to unwind effectively and preferably 3), but I do still have to make sure that the work gets done. Factors that affect my approval would be:
      – Is the employee a high performer? Managers will go out of their way to support their top talent. I’m not that interested in accommodating mediocre talent who spends their time at work sighing and moaning about how they wish they didn’t have to be there.
      – How much advance notice was offered? We have internal clients to tell, but the more time I have to prepare the better I can cover the work in your absence.
      – What are you contributing to make sure the work is covered? Showing that you care about making sure things get done, have a coverage plan that is more than just telling me I have to handle it, and picking less busy times are all bonuses. I’m human, and I have a job to do – show that you understand that and want to make it easy for me to say yes. If your absence makes it harder on your co-workers, you want to have lots of good will stored up by being the person who helps them out when they take off.

      I have personally taken extended time off with lots of advance notice, doing everything possible to clear my desk, and ensuring that I made it as easy as possible for someone else to step in to deal with any emergencies while I was out.

      That’s a bit about the “how” to do it – I’ll supplement in a bit with another aspect of your question.

    3. Sabbatical*

      I took a month off in two different jobs in order to travel. I accomplished it by pooling PTO for ages, scrimping finances to bare bones, and by being married to a public school teacher who had summers off.

      I got downsized by both jobs within two months of returning from my trip. The second time, it took me more than four years to find another job in my field. I will not do it again.

    4. cactus lady*

      I think it depends on your industry. My brother took a year off to travel when he was in his mid-20s, but he works in a very niche area of tech where he is one of the few people (period!) who have that much experience doing what he does, so he found work right away when he got back. I think it’s harder if your work isn’t as in demand. However, I know there are some employers who grant sabbaticals if you’ve been there long enough. I know a few people who have done it but they have also been in tech, and all of them were making extremely good money and just saved to be able to do it.

      1. Graciosa*

        Intel and McDonald’s (Corporate) both did this at one time – not sure if they still do.

        However, there were stringent requirements around the sabbatical programs. For example, you worked several years to become eligible for an additional 8 week vacation (could be added to your existing to let you take about a quarter off) and then had to repay the company for that additional vacation if you left for any reason within a year of your return.

        I knew a lot of people who stuck it out to get the time, then left right after the repayment period ended.

        I’m not sure that Carms is looking for an opportunity to find a way to take that long vacation in 7-10 years (with the right employer and assuming they don’t change the program), but these programs can offer good opportunities if it fits with your plans

    5. Graciosa*

      The other aspect of your letter I wanted to address was about how you describe your desire to take time off. It’s hard to know if this may just be a normal adjustment to working life. It’s not always easy to move from a school environment which has much longer breaks to being expected to be at work day in and day out with much less time off. And yes, it’s like this for years.

      People also find themselves thinking about time off a lot when they have jobs that are not engaging. Sometimes this is fine – people do work just for money and there’s nothing wrong with that – and sometimes it reflects a mismatch in the job.

      Personally, I tend to want to go on vacation when my job stress hits some invisible threshold. Fortunately I’m usually in a position to act on it, but I understand what’s prompting the desire to get away.

      I’m obviously not in a position to know your motivations, but it’s important that you do. This is a good time to think about what you want in life, and what your priorities are.

      I would also strongly encourage you to develop a habit of living below your income (whatever it is) by a comfortable margin, work to pay off any debts, and save /invest regularly. If you know now you want to spend $X in Y time to Do Something, you can save that up before you need it. If you suddenly lose your job – or quit to travel or learn basket weaving from native tribes in the Amazon jungle – having little or no debt and a pile of money is a great comfort. Managing your financial resources effectively now can make a huge difference to your future.

      Best wishes

      1. Lil Fidget*

        So true – recent grads get itchy, in my experience, after about one year of no change in their circumstance because they are used to progressing to a new grade every year. No fun staying a sophomore for five years without even semester changes, but that’s the working world. After four years, it’s time to switch schools usually, so it feels weird to just … keep … doing … more of the same thing.

      2. As Close As Breakfast*

        Yes to all of this. And for reference if it helps, I’d say it took me 4-5 years of working after school before I was totally used to not having all of the breaks. I will also say that I was in college for 11 straight years, so maybe 4-5 years is longer than average due to this, I don’t know.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      I had co-workers (married) who wanted to take 6 months off to hike the Pacific Crest Trail. They wanted to do it while they were reasonably young and before they had kids. One was a programmer, like me, and was competent and well liked by management. He was told no. He could keep working or he could quit his job, but he couldn’t take time off and then come back.

      So they quit, hiked about half the trail, and found jobs elsewhere upon their return.

  84. Just Another Alison*

    I want to ask my boss if i can move offices. I’ve been with the organization for almost a year and there is a room with windows that is never used (it just has a phone in it). I’m currently in a private office with no windows. Whats the best way to approach this? I think the biggest barrier is the fact that someone would have to move my huge desk into the other room (we’re a very small organization staffed with 5 women).

    any advice is appreciated!

    1. DDJ*

      It doesn’t hurt to ask! I’m assuming that this room isn’t used as a meeting room, and that it wouldn’t impact business at all if you were to use it as your office?

      Moving a desk probably isn’t the biggest hurdle. Most really large desks disassemble into a couple of manageable pieces. Technology might be the issue. It can be a lot of work to wire a room for computer/internet access if it doesn’t already have those hookups.

      Also, what’s the situation like for your coworkers? Is there anyone who’s been there longer than you, who is also in an office without windows? You don’t want this to end up causing resentment.

  85. DayVee*

    I’m going crazy.

    I’m a teapot strategist. A few months back when got a new manager, not of my team, but of a team that I work closely with a lot. Now I feel like no matter what I do I am getting static back. I feel like, as a strategist, it’s my job to provide information and make recommendations around how to approach making our teapots. Since the new manager came on, I’ve been getting negative feedback that I’m not being collaborative enough and too prescriptive about how we make the teapots, and she wants her team to be more “strategic.” (That’s great, but I was hired to provide strategy. It’s in my title.)

    Dutifully I backed off a bit. But now basically unless I do the most menial information-gathering tasks and actually provide a sense of what I think the direction we should take a teapot—even if it is couched in copious waffly language and “I feel that” and other conditional phrases—I get pushback for overstepping my role (which is, again to be a strategist!).

    Am now fantasizing about quitting in the middle of a meeting. If only I had some F-you money / another gig to walk into. I’m beyond frustrated. I really liked my job, when I was able to actually do it.

    1. Overeducated*

      Could you ask them the kind of leading questions that leave them feeling like they’re more a part of the strategy development process? It can be kind of annoying to have to “lead from behind” that way, since you don’t necessarily get the credit, but it can also make them feel like you’re being more “collaborative.”

      I say this because my job has a strategy element, but it’s strategy for teapots across several different ceramic production programs I don’t run. I’ve found that by asking a lot of questions about what the program managers envision for their teapots, they tend to realize they haven’t thought it out all that well yet and ask me for advice, whereas if I just came out and gave the advice it wouldn’t go over well. I also present teapot case studies from other contexts that I think could be models and ask them for ideas on whether those models could be adapted to their programs. It was a little bit of an adjustment to go from acting like an expert to acting like an intelligent novice at first, but it’s allowed me to gain a lot more trust and knowledge of their programs, such that program managers are more likely to approach me for help on their own and give me explicit credit for my role in the process now.

      1. DayVee*

        The problem I have is coming from the other side. We get a project come in. I talk to stakeholders and understand their problems, their challenges, their goals. My understanding of my job—and the way my job has always worked—is to take those issues and translate them into a strategy that includes a statement of the problem, any contextual information, and a recommended course of action. I have very good relationships with those stakeholders, and until this new manager came in, the rest of the team.

        Now, if I do anything beyond stating a problem, my manager has a chat with me and says that somebody (and it’s always the same person) is unhappy because I’m “solutioning” and not working collaboratively enough. If I don’t go beyond stating the challenge, I get people who are frustrated and/or don’t do anything because they haven’t been provided with any direction. I can’t win. In December, I got a significant bonus and a significant raise because of the quality of my work, and now I don’t feel as though I’m able to actually do my job. My manager’s not been much help though he keeps assuring me that my work is excellent.

  86. Amber Rose*

    Question: I’m a safety manager who writes job ads, does orientation and training, answers all the phones, does all the orders, RMAs and sales. Can I spin any of that into trying for an HR job? I have zero accounting/payroll experience, but I know my way around Simply Accounting and I vaguely remember MYOB.

    Rant: Today I get to be shipper on top of my dozen other jobs, and I’m getting exactly one small bit of help: there is someone who can use the forklift who isn’t me. (Which is good. It’s illegal for me to use a forklift.) I have no idea what I’m doing and I’m pretty sure I’m making all sorts of mistakes that I’m going to get yelled at for. And I can’t keep up. It takes me much, much longer to do anything when I don’t know what I’m doing and my job is time consuming anyway and I’m only here complaining instead of frantically running around because I have too many emails and the phone won’t stop ringing. I want to throw up.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d think that writing job ads falls under recruitment which can be considered an HR function along with orientation and training.

    2. Natalie*

      If you look in bigger companies, payroll is probably a totally separate department so you wouldn’t be expected to do anything related to that. And given your experience at this current company, you might appreciate a place that’s a little more staid.

    3. Wren*

      Bigger companies sometimes have an HR call center that can get your foot in the door. And a certification from a local community college can help too.

  87. ExcitedAndTerrified*

    So, the Non-Profit I work at has recently started to make a big deal out of employees contributing to it… sending around a series of emails about it, and having a long speech at a recent staff meeting. Apparently it looks better when applying for grants and large donors, if they can claim they have a 100% staff give back rate.

    Am I crazy to be offended by this? I do believe in our mission, which is why I work for the organization in the first place. But with all the problems that working for Non-profits entails (no raises, lower pay than I could be making in the private sector, no advancement chances, etc), it seems a bit… ridiculous to be getting emails from our executive director talking about how much we could donate if we “just gave up our morning coffees for a month”, and how that would make the organization look better.

    Am I overreacting, in feeling that they shouldn’t be asking this, and that money should flow from the employer to the employee, and not the other way around?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      It’s annoying but it’s so, so common. Every nonprofit I’ve worked at has had it, and we all roll our eyes and contribute a very small amount. Sometimes the company admits this is just an “on paper” thing that donors and the board wants to see, and they may reward employees for 100% involvement by offering a free day off or something. They also never penalize you for a ridiculously low contribution, like literally one dollar or five dollars – as long as you donate on paper. I also believe my boss frequently puts in a couple extra bucks in case someone is on vacation or taking a really strong moral stand against it, so that we get the extra day off.

      1. bluelyon*

        Also – on the note of putting in for other people. This is like the collections for Christmas/Birthday/Charity etc.
        It’s not in my budget – my charitable giving is determined in a way that won’t make it possible.
        They’re being crummy – feel free to lie to them.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          TBH if a dollar is an acceptable amount to donate (which it is at my org) – “not in my budget” is going to come across as kind of weird.

          1. bluelyon*

            It depends – not in my budget in general maybe weird – but pushing back because you prioritize other giving it is less so. Offices are different – and as we’ve heard on here before sometimes $1 literally isn’t in someone’s budget. Nonprofits can definitely be in the camp that pay people that poorly.

            If the person in charge is just dictating that this is The Way Things Are – even a dollar won’t go over well. If they’re reasonable it may also make them reconsider what or at least why they’re asking.

    2. clarie*

      You’re not crazy to be offended! Having worked in non-profits, this is (regrettably) par for the course. Some institutions/governing bodies still put a lot of stake into giving percentages.

      If you feel comfortable with it, I’d encourage you to share your feelings about the tactics with the development staff (ideally in person). It helps to know that the approach they’re taking is putting people off rather than encouraging them. They might not change their approach, but at least you will make your position known!

    3. bluelyon*

      So this is common and it’s crummy. AND – as someone who reviewed grants for a living in my prior job (at a national grantmaking foundation) this would put us off funding someone. At a minimum the program officer would have a mildly unpleasant conversation with the president of the nonprofit.
      Any org funder worth their salt will raise multiple eyebrows about staff donations**. What they want to see are things like alumnae donations if you are from a school/summer camp/museum with community programs/other entity with programs people take in addition to board of directors engagement.
      If you are up to it – the next time you get one of these ask what your board engagement rate is. What percentage of those people are donating is far more important.
      ** I am comfortable making blanket statements about large scale funders on the national and state levels. I do know places like UNICEF and United Way have bizarre requirements for the grants that they make which may include staff donations.
      Short non-ragey answer – Your office sucks.

      1. Okay then*

        Just a note: every United Way works as a separate entity. The ones I know, for instance, don’t care about employee giving and don’t ask about it.

    4. DCGirl*

      It’s not at all uncommon for non-profits to have staff campaigns (I never worked at a nonprofit that didn’t), so, yes, I think you may be overreacting a bit. If the goal really is participation, then everyone should be able to give at a level that’s comfortable, even if it’s a token amount. I can see, however, if your organization has never had such a campaign that it could be offputting.

    5. misspiggy*

      These answers are fascinating. UK charities will have at most one week a year when all staff are encouraged to contribute to fundraising, but through volunteering in community fundraising drives. Or doing workplace competitions like bake offs. Very much voluntary, makes no difference to career progression (although there are probably a few exceptions).

      There’s little or no expectation that charity workers will have money to give to charity, as we give in the sense of taking a pay cut to work there in the first place.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “Oh so we have to pay to work here? Isn’t that one of the problems that brought about the rise of unions?

  88. Beatrice*

    I recently got a new manager. I have an existing relationship with him – we just got off an all-consuming project where we worked together as peers. I like him and I don’t have any emotional reaction to the transition from peer to manager, it wasn’t really a suprise.

    During that project, I gave him feedback that he needs to be more assertive and needs to say no more often. He’s only been with the company for a year, and I’ve been here for over a decade – we have a more pushy, cutthroat culture than he’s used to. They’re going to eat him alive. He welcomed the feedback at the time, asked me to call him out on it if I saw it again, and has asked me for guidance in other similar things (political navigation and specific personalities), but he hasn’t improved – he still falters when he needs to be on the offensive and he agrees to things he shouldn’t.

    Now he’s my manager. He caved on something in a meeting this week that ran counter to the strategy our director outlined for us and undermined hours of my work. I’m friends with the manager he caved to, and we went out for drinks last night. She asked me how reporting to him was going, and I said it was fine, but mentioned that he needs to be more assertive and say no more often. She smirked and said, “I know, and I’ve been using that to my advantage. He needs to learn to stand up for himself, and learn it quickly.”

    How do I help him? When we were peers, I would jump in, interrupt him if I had to, and shut that crap down. Now, that would be way more undermining. He did it to himself a few times when I wasn’t around, but he was mostly speaking for himself when that happened and he had to deal with the fallout. Now, it’s affecting me a lot more, and he’s suddenly in a lot of meetings that I’m not, so I can’t even guide the conversation in a direction that makes it clear that our answer needs to be no. Do I tell him what the other manager told me? I have good, years-long rapport with our director and a couple of his peer managers – I have reported to or worked alongside most of them. Do I talk to one or two of them about what I’ve observed and asked them to keep an eye out for him? (I am already job hunting – not because of this, I’m just legitimately independently ready for a change.)

    1. fposte*

      Given your relationship, I think it’s legit to say to him that you’ve been explicitly told by somebody that they’re using his softness to their advantage. I also think it’s legit to talk to his manager and alert her that while you’ve given Boss feedback on this, it’s going on to the point that other people are consciously taking advantage of this.

      However: it sounds like you really want this guy to succeed, which is great, but I think you have to prepare yourself for the possibility that he won’t. So I’d stick to these two discrete actions as the maximum additional intervention and then let the chips fall where they may.

  89. clarie*

    Hi all,

    Any advice for requesting a raise when it’s unlikely to be approved? I never got a straight answer from my supervisor on whether or not there will be merit raises or cost of living increases this year, but my rate for my 2018 pay stubs has not changed, so either there are no increases happening or there was some mix-up with my pay (unlikely but not impossible).

    I have some good arguments for a raise (my department shrank from 3 people to 2 in the last year, but still met or exceeded all of our deadlines, I had a very good review this year, etc). Any other tips/insight are welcome!

    TY!

    1. Kathenus*

      In my career, most companies budget for certain % raise pools for merit and/or COL. In some cases they might be distributed across the board (sometimes by department or role), and in some cases they’ve been tied to performance plan ratings or similar. I read a lot of other comments about asking for individual raises, but at least in my field that hasn’t been the norm. But a couple of things to consider. 1) Find out when your budgeting process and timeline, and advocate for your raise when the budget is being worked on and prepared. In my company that’s about 5 months before the next fiscal year begins, so any significant budget increases need to be requested at that time, not later in the year or the numbers are already set. 2) If you don’t get an increase this year, ask your boss and/or HR what the benchmarks are to be considered for an increase, and how to go about achieving these; and if there’s a procedure for requesting an increase so that you’ll be proactive and ready for the next budget year. Good luck!

  90. Lil Fidget*

    I keep thinking about gender in the workplace this week. From conversations with my dad and my male friends, it seems clear that most professionals male and female feel undervalued, like they’re not getting ahead, like they should be paid more and that the aren’t getting the choice assignments they need to advance. I (a female) feel all these things too, so it’s totally crazymaking to hear that actually, there may be a widespread conspiracy basically, to keep women from the top.

    I guess I just don’t really know at all how to operate. If I start to blame my relative lack of success on gender stuff, *despite having no real evidence this is what’s happening to me,* I find it leads me quickly down a rabbithole where work is meaningless bc I can’t really get ahead anyway, my male boss is exploiting me, my company doesn’t value me, etc. But pretending these things aren’t real and I just *Need To Work Harder!* feels naive and demoralizing. And it’s also part of the theorized conspiracy that I *wouldn’t* necessarily see any evidence – just that Chaddington Chadwick III gets ahead with more money and more promotions for the same work as me.

    Is anybody else having these problems? I know I’m overthinking it.

    1. Brown girl in the ring*

      I feel like that but about my skin colour as well as my gender. I don’t want to walk around assuming everyone is a racist, but I am starting to feel like it affects the way people treat me more than I realized.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      The biggest issue that I face is it seems men at my org who are semi-competent at their task are treated like they’re great, and great guys are treated like gods. But as a woman I need to be excellent + super nice all the time + networking always + a mother figure + have skills unrelated to my job.

    3. MissMaple*

      Yeah, I feel like this. It definitely ends down the rabbithole really quickly. I feel like I’m not “buddy-buddy” with the guys, so when they pick people for projects, I don’t get thought of as quickly, then I get what’s left, etc, etc. I’m trying to work on getting perspective from my husband and from friends of both genders who are in the same industry, but different companies.

      So far, I’ve found that some of it is definitely real, but some is just my personality too. I think I’d be the same introvert who’s friendly but not overly outgoing no matter if I was a different gender. I’m also just not very assertive, which is a whole other area of socialization and personality that is another rabbithole :)

  91. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    No question really – just feel like putting some exciting (for me) news out there in the world.

    I fell into administrative assistant work early in my career and have been trying to claw my way out ever since (not to knock the work, I’m just not particularly well suited for it – it’s something I can do well enough, but I’ll never be a rockstar at it, which is making it impossible for any sort of internal promotion). I’m conducting an active job search right now and for the first time (ever!) I’m getting a good deal of traction from non-admin roles (think teapot analyst roles in the department I’ve been admininning in). I’ve gotten half a dozen interviews within a couple of weeks (fortunately this department/niche is very in-demand right now). I’ve only been rejected outright from one (so far) and every single one has been fully non-administrative. Even the recruiters I’m working with are very enthusiastic about submitting me for non-admin roles.

    For the first time in a while it feels like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, which is really what I needed.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Thank you!!! It just feels like every role I’ve ever taken – I’ve never actually wanted the role, I only took it because I was really hoping that it would lead me out the admin world. It’s such an amazing feeling to be evaluating roles on what I want to be doing RIGHT NOW, not on where I think it could lead me. Of course growth is still an important factor, but it’s a secondary factor not the main one.

  92. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m slowly getting back to normal. Going home this weekend and back to work next week… I’ll have been out for a total of 3 weeks. Everyone knows I had no choice given the circumstances (In fact my Mgr & boss were supportive and told me to forget about work for a while) but I still tried to manage my emails even though they were being automatically forwarded to another coworker to handle (checking my emails helped distract me from my situation ).

    I know 3 weeks during tax season is a long time to be away; anyway I wanted to give something to my mgr and a few others who picked up the slack while I was gone to show my appreciation (thinking of a small gift card w a note). Is that appropriate? If so, should I wait til after tax season, holiday season or do it as soon as possible?

    1. Colette*

      I’d suggest bringing in food for the team (donuts, a fruit tray, whatever is appropriate) with a thank-you card to everyone for their support. A gift card isn’t necessary, and it runs the risk of someone feeling slighted because they had to cover, too.

      (And I’m sorry for your loss.)

  93. Crystal Smith*

    How do those of you who have coworkers who also read AAM handle posting about yourselves? For example, I’ve been grappling with a lot of tension with a coworker of mine and I’ve often thought of posting in the open thread about it…but I know for a fact she reads here, and can’t imagine she wouldn’t recognize herself. Maybe some of that is just paranoia, but I can’t move past it!

    (And no, the irony of a terrible coworker reading a work advice blog and taking seemingly none of the advice doesn’t escape me!)

    1. Starley*

      Fabricate some very specific details that won’t change the type of advice you’d receive. Swap genders if that’s not a factor in the interaction, post under a throwaway name, change the type of industry you’re in, length of employment for both of you, business size, etc. Maybe even try to write it from the other person’s perspective? It’s not perfect but it might help.

        1. Definitely Not Starley*

          As a 62 year old man who works in the publishing industry on the east coast, I’m glad someone agrees with me! Er, this person!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      One tactic I’ve used for advice columns in general is that I’ll change genders where it’s not important (like, there’s no power imbalance or inappropriate behavior involved) or something like that. Imagine two strangers having the EXACT same issue that you are having with your coworker. It might be a different industry, a different office setup, whatever, but try to drop in a fact that has no bearing on the actual issue but is different from the reality, like “she contradicts me and then storms off to her cubicle before I can even ask her to discuss it” when you both have offices, but that describes your dynamic exactly.

      Hope this helps.

    3. WonderingHowIGotHere*

      I think AAM already has some nifty “templates” in the form of stalwart Teapot Inc employees Jane and Fergus and the temp Wakeen. Shuffle the genders and get creative with Teapot related job roles and you should have enough anonymity

    4. Loz*

      To be honest, most of the questions here are already chock full of irrelevant details, often to the point where several paragraphs of mostly useless back story swamp the one sentence problem. I’d just describe the problem itself and the situation it causes. Alison pretty much picks the bones out anyway so by self editing you might even be helping!

  94. January 25th*

    I’m feeling so conflicted! I’m half of a team of two (been begging for more people for two years, best we got was ‘showing’ some remote people who do similar but not same what we do). Other teammate went on 13 week maternity leave today, and I have 2 interviews this afternoon. I absolutely don’t want to be here any longer, I’ve been working on putting written docs in place for whomever picks up the pieces, but I feel so bad for my manager who is a super nice. But not organized or a good advocate for her staff.

    Any suggestions as to scripts to make any job leaving easier? I don’t want to burn bridges, but finally got it through my head only I can advocate for me.

    1. fposte*

      Scripts for you or scripts for when you give your notice? “I know it’s a tough time, but I couldn’t pass up the opportunity” pretty much covers it. This isn’t a defection; it’s an expected personal decision and part of doing business

  95. Can't Sit Still*

    I am feeling much more human this week! I bought a sunrise alarm, which has made a huge difference. I can think at work again. Which is good, because everything has gone bananas with several major transitions, an influx of new hires, plus the interns are coming, and a department-wide move (and we’ve already run out of space in our new location, and I mean that literally, the planned cubes don’t fit.) And I’m trying to plan multiple off-sites while everyone is under deadline and…anyway, at least my boss said that finishing my masters is enough of a development goal this year.

    My academic advisor is hilarious. She says she would hate to have my job, and it’s no wonder I’m exhausted all the time, but that I’m like the little engine that could, just chugging away.

  96. What's my weakness?*

    What’s a good weakness to talk about in an interview, if asked? I think my real weakness is avoiding confrontation, but I don’t know if I should mention that one. The job I’m applying for is technical, but involves team work and possibly being the senior person working with more experienced junior people. It’s a 10 month temp position in another department of my company that I’m really excited to apply for, as it could open up further possibilities down the road.

    I hate the weakness question and have a really hard time coming up with something that doesn’t sound terrible.

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      Honestly say “avoiding confrontation” and then explain how you’re working on eliminating it as a weakness. Ideally you have already improved.

    2. nep*

      Hate this question. It’s certainly at the forefront of my mind when I’ve got to prepare for an interview. I generally start by thinking of some steps I’ve taken to resolve something, then go back to how that something could be framed as a weakness. A little backwards — but not disingenuous, I think. Seems to me one of the most important parts of this answer is the explanation of how you’re looking to improve.
      I agree with The Person from the Resume — if this is the thing that comes to mind as your real weakness, say it (provided you can back it up with some ways you’ve worked to address it); I think employers want to get an idea of your self-awareness and authenticity as well.

      1. nep*

        (Of course I do just ponder generally what I think my weaknesses are — I simply mean that I’ve always got in mind that whatever weakness I say has to come with some steps I’ve taken to tackle it.)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Pick a weakness that you have fixed or mostly fixed.
      Don’t pick a weakness that you have a hard time talking about.

  97. bookends*

    Something happened that’s bothering me this morning and I want to see what others think (and vent a little, tbh).

    I sent my boss a draft of a document at the end of the day yesterday. The final draft of it will need to be ready for Monday, most likely. She responded at 12:40am last night and said that it “doesn’t look like what we talked with the team about” (I’m working on it based on a meeting we had on Wednesday) and that some of the language is not accurate (it’s a legal document, so language has to be pretty specific).

    Am I off-base for being annoyed that she didn’t give me anything more specific than that? I don’t need her to make or describe the edits, but it would have been helpful to have an indication of “we were aiming for X approach and you did Y” or “take a look at these specific sections again.” I know part of this is probably that it was late last night, and that she wants me to learn how to better analyze drafts myself, which I understand. But it feels really futile to have to sit and pick through the language and my notes when she could have at least given me an idea of her issue, so I could spend my time actually drafting language and have a new draft done before our call at 3pm today.

    I ended up responding to her email and asking for a ballpark of what to look at so I can work efficiently today and be prepared to present the final version in Monday. Was I off-base to ask?

    I think I’m extra annoyed because we have a big data entry project that needs to happen by the end of the month and I really don’t want to have to come in over the weekend, but…it’s ridiculous to find a problem and then make someone else do the same work of finding that problem, right? Especially when on a deadline, and you’re not even indicating if there are specific issues vs. a wrong overall approach. I could spend the next 4 hours on this and find out I went in the complete wrong direction.

    Anyway, time to stop venting and work on this thing. Thanks everyone!

    1. bookends*

      Update: boss called about an hour after I emailed her, so I’m glad I decided to email and question her vague feedback. She gave me some pointers on approach to one section and a couple of details I needed to change. I asked her if I need to look at overall approach or specific items and she said she didn’t remember, which is frustrating, but at least I have some direction.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Your frustration is completely understandable – as you say it’s a duplication of labour for two people to find the problem. And it’s also super annoying for you.

  98. AP No Noir*

    My Outlook crashed this morning! I tried to restart and it is hung up on the “loading profile” screen; my IT department hasn’t been able to fix it so I’m using webmail for now and I hate it! I can’t add my signature since it has a picture and I can’t copy images into a message, even though it’s HTML. Any tips for dealing with webmail?

    1. GhostCat*

      Has your IT Dept. recreated your profile? That is done in Control Panel > Mail.
      You can also open your Outlook in safemode by typing in the Windows Start search bar “Outook.exe /safe”

      If it opens in safe mode it’s usually something going on with an add-in.

    2. h.cowl*

      This just happened to me! Unplug your ethernet and join the guest wifi, if your office has one. That solved it for me — on a Macbook pro here. Super weird.

  99. GhostCat*

    Not really a question but just some weird stuff going on.

    I work in the public sector and supervise 3 student workers. The students work part-time, are paid a dollar over minimum wage, and gain experience in their field of study so they can go directly into the workforce instead of having to take entry-level support jobs to gain experience.

    One intern, “John”, has been showing some red-flags recently. John is former military and gets a retirement check, paid-for schooling, and uses the internship to gain experience and supplement his income. My supervisor chose John for the position because he had the same general knowledge as the other student interviewers and because he was older (in his 30’s) he may have more life-experience and better judgment when it came to his position and in dealing with our internal users.

    We noticed immediately that John did not follow instructions and thought maybe we weren’t being clear. I recently found out through conversation that John specifically looks for his own ways of doing things, even if he has our instructions, because it makes him a critical thinker. John also has shown a temper; when my co-worker found him changing a software setting that absolutely should not have been changed (the co-worker’s tone can be dramatic but he was in line for correcting John), John told the co-worker that he needed to teach him how to do it (true) and also asked if they needed to “step outside” to handle things. Co-worker now avoids working with John.

    John has also started a “push-up” challenge and has asked people in the office to participate with him. They take 5 minutes and do as many push-ups as they can do. That’s fine – but 6 people show up in my small office to do push-ups on the floor so I’ve asked them to take their challenge to the back so I don’t have 6 grunting men in my space while I’m trying to work. Today John interrupted my work to ask if I’d hold his cellphone while he live-streamed himself doing push-ups. I declined. He also believes he should be able to do homework when he’s on the clock and got very upset when my supervisor told him no, that it would look bad if a citizen comes to the department for any reason and sees an employee doing homework on tax dollars.

    I feel like I’m losing it.

    2. GhostCat*

      I also forgot that John mentions his pay about 3 times a week in a snarky way. “Oh, do I have permission to do that? I mean, I only get paid 8 bucks an hour. Ooooo!” and he does some little jazz hands.

      2. Artemesia*

        This is insubordinate crap. This guys should be fired or at least put on whatever the intern equivalent of PIP is. Whoever is supervising him needs to have a CTJM in which it is made clear that sarcastic verbal behavior is ‘negative behavior’ and not acceptable and that following the SOP of the office is mandatory for interns. If he spots a truly better way of doing something he needs to bring it to his supervisor not go ahead resetting software or violating the protocol in place.

        This is the sort of thing that should be brought up short early before it is an enormous problem. Anyone asking someone to settle it outside should have been fired or at least reprimanded and let know that any more of this would be grounds for dismissal. And a discussion with security would be in order.

    3. Snark*

      I think John needs to go, today.

      a) “Do we need to step outside” is a threat of physical violence.

      b) He’s insubordinate, disrespectful, and not following established procedures.

      c) He’s a time thief.

      d) HELL NO on the pushup challenge, my dude. Do that on your own time.

      Fire him. This is not “awkward,” this is not something you need to tolerate, this is not weird stuff. This is a bad, toxic employee who needs to learn a lesson about how this works in the real world.

      1. GhostCat*

        I do not have the authority to fire John or I would have already. John reports to me and on paper is managed by my own supervisor. My supervisor knows about the issues.

        1. Artemesia*

          Have you sat down with the supervisor and discussed the risks he poses to the office and your belief that he needs to be fired?

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      That is weird. Sounds like someone at a sufficiently high level needs to have a conversation with John. Because asking if you need to “step outside” – that’s threatening. Since he’s former military, it’s possible that he’s just clueless about professional norms, or that there’s something going on in his mental health. Or both!

      1. nonegiven*

        I thought people liked to hire former military because they know how to follow orders. Was he an officer?

    5. Temperance*

      Ughhhhh, it’s always a mistake to just blanket assume that older = more maturity and experience.

    6. fposte*

      I can’t tell your relationship with John, since initially it sounds like you supervise him but then it sounds like your supervisor might.

      But somebody needs to supervise him drastically and immediately in general, and the threat of violence on a campus in particular is a *huge* deal–I would get in massive trouble if I allowed other students to work with somebody who’d done that. I don’t know how your job fits into campus configuration, but at my job I’d talk to Student Affairs about a student’s threat of violence on the job, and I might talk to Public Safety as well. You just do not mess with that on campus.

      1. GhostCat*

        Thanks for commenting fposte! I work for local government and John reports to me but is managed by my direct supervisor. To be clear, the students work in my department but other than assigning them work I do not have hire/fire/discipline rights. My supervisor is aware of the issues but is not acting on anything for reasons unknown to me.

        1. fposte*

          I suspect that a desire not to deal with the situation is reason #1. Do you have a coordinating contact with the students’ department? I would consider notifying that person. If one of our practicum students did something like this we’d want to know ASAP.

        2. zora*

          Since you are the one giving John work, I think you are within your rights to be more firm with your supervisor.

          Go to your supervisor again and say “This situation has become untenable. I think we need to fire John and we need to do it today. He is affecting MY ability to do my job, and it is not fair to the other student workers.” Go through the list Snark wrote above, using his specific language, too. Don’t soften this. And straight out ask your supervisor, “will you please give me permission to fire him, this is harming our department.”

          If she says no, you say “Can you explain why, I want to understand?” Don’t just leave this vague, be respectful and calm and use professional language, but this is affecting you more than your supervisor, and you have the standing to ask.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          That offer to step outside stands alone for firing.
          This guy is an invasive weed. He does not accept supervision, does not follow directions, confuses everyone else and on and on.
          Tell your boss that he is undercutting your authority and you have no reason to believe that he would treat her any differently.

  100. Amanda Banana*

    Hi everyone. I just found this site about 6 months ago and I think I’ve read everything in the archives in that time but this is my first time commenting. I’m curious how other people found this site and what your favorite thing about it is. For me in the short time I’ve been reading it’s changed the way I think about work and given me a lot more confidence in dealing with my boss.

    1. GhostCat*

      I found this site when dealing with a co-worker who was a chronic singer. Since then I’ve become a manager myself and it’s been invaluable to my success in the position.

    2. Just Peachy*

      I found it googling advice on a difficult boss. Been reading the posts every day for about a year and a half now, and it’s so helpful!

    4. LNLN*

      I found this site when I googled “how to quit your job.” I have not quit (yet) but have learned a lot of things that have helped me through a really challenging and exhausting job change.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I like that we can not only avail ourselves of Alison’s excellent advice, but that the commentariat is so knowledgeable. You can almost always find someone who either has experience with what you’re asking or a suggestion of where to find more information. And for the most part, people are nice here.

      Also, the wacky letters and ensuing comments are entertaining as hell. :D

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      I found it while searching for interview tips. My favourite thing is that the comments stay on-topic. This has basically ruined the rest of the internet for me – but it’s so worth it.

    9. As Close As Breakfast*

      I found it while looking for advice writing cover letters. In one of those strange twists of fate, what I ended up reading/learning here in the last couple of years actually helped me decide to stop looking for a new job and stay where I’m at. Things at my job aren’t perfect, but one of the best things I’ve learned here is that although I may not love A, B, and C, I am willing to put up with them because of X, Y, and Z. That was a drastic shift in my thinking that led to me being much happier at work and probably just generally in life.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I had the site pop up in some online searches. It took me a bit to actually look at the whole site. And it was a bit longer before I started commenting.
      I totally enjoy the incredible amount accumulated knowledge that I see here. I can’t think of any other place like this space.

    11. BatteryB*

      I found this site looking for accommodations for narcolepsy and just stayed for the good advice and the comments. I’ve since transitioned into a lead position, so I’ve been able to put some good advice into use.

  101. NaoNao*

    This may be moot point because I’m only in the “final interview” stage but….

    During the course of the most recent and final interview for a job, I found out that (I believe, I’ll double check if they extend an offer) the open (newly created) position is one for a “Learning and Development Co-ordinator”. There’s one other co-ordinator, a mid-20’s woman who appears to be entry level or just past that. This role reports to the Manager, who reports to the Director.

    The other two roles, women who I would be working with, but it’s unclear if I would be reporting to them, are “Learning and Development Specialists.” (they said “we don’t really talk about it–we’re all a team”) They report directly to the Director.

    I asked in the interview “so of the two people I interviewed with last time, who is the direct manager?” They answered that it’s complicated and spelled out that two of them answer to Person A, the Director of Learning and Development, and Other Co Ordinator, answers to the Person B, who in turn answers to Person A. The new role will answer to Person B, who answers to Person A. Speaking frankly, this is akin to a demotion for me. That’s two layers (Specialist, Manager) between myself and the Director, whereas I’m used to one or none.

    Given my experience and current role (which is labeled as “Senior Manager, Training Design”) I’m considering asking them “Since this is a newly created role, is it possible that the title could be “Specialist?” I’m coming from a title that reports to an assistant director and specifically calls out my expertise and experience, and have 8 years in this field and ideally that would be reflected in any new title.”

    The reasons I would ask:

    My future resume and career. If I go from “Senior Manager” to “Coordinator” without changing industries or other compelling reasons (a move, re-entering the job market, etc) it will look…odd. Like did I mess up and have to start over? Was I desperate? Why did I go from a mid-career title to an entry level one?

    Titles matter when it comes to compensation. Words like “assistant” “co-ordinator” “developer” and the like are usually “code” for “junior/entry level”. I am most certainly not entry level at this point! I am already asking max for their salary band to meet my current level. Perhaps at a “Specialist” level that band is no longer maxed out just to meet my current salary.

    But I’m not looking to get a foot in the door! I’m IN THE DOOR. I also don’t love the feeling that ANY JOB ANY JOB ANY JOB ANY TITLE JUST GIVE ME MONEY OH GOD PLEASE is the way to be happy with your role as a whole (heh, I rhymed!) and I am in a position where I can be picky and negotiate.

    But am I being weird or a diva? I am aware that women in general struggle to advocate for themselves and get the money, titles, and benefits they are actually due, but then again, every job I’ve been in has different odd titles, so maybe it’s not a big deal as long as they meet my salary req?

    1. anna green*

      I don’t think you are being a diva at all! My industry has similar titles and it sounds like it would be a demotion of sorts. I think you can definitely ask, and if they say no, then try to get clarification on what the differences are between the two positions. Maybe it is too entry level for you? Or maybe they’ll be willing to work with you on title. If it matters to you but doesnt matter to them, they should be willing to work with you. Also, “we dont really talk about it were a team”, is weird, thats what people say when they dont promote people.

    2. fposte*

      I think you could ask, but I’d include in it a larger question about how they see the difference between “coordinator” and “specialist”; that may illuminate additional facets you could bring to the framing of the request or make it clear that it’d be NBD.

    3. As Close As Breakfast*

      You’ve made a really good case for a title change for you personally (your experience, etc.) My only question would be if the title makes sense for the role. Do the duties, tasks, responsibilities of the job as they’ve been laid out for you match the title you’re looking for? It’s a newly created position so while they may have more flexibility here, they may also have no idea what they’re really looking for or needing. Is it possible that the current title matches the job, but you’re just overqualified for it? I don’t think it can hurt to ask about a possible title change, and in truth it could provide some valuable insight on the job. Just keep an eye open for signs that you might be overqualified and representing a ‘good deal’ for them.

    4. Anono-me*

      Please consider these two questions about the title issue.

      Will this title impact your ability to get things done internally?

      How will the outside vendors that you work with view you and your authority to make decisions with this title?

  102. BigSigh*

    I’m so tired. Is anyone else tired?

    Work isn’t going well at all. A coworker just said to me, “It kind of looks like [the boss] is just screwing with you. She has you do all this work, and at the last second she decides she doesn’t want any of it.” And that’s honestly what it feels like. Each week, I work 12 hour days for 4 days on something, but on the 5th day, Fridays, she wants the whole thing re-done to look opposite of what she originally wanted.

    Ugh, I can’t…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Would it help to remember that you get paid the same whether she uses your work or not? The boss is basically setting fire to a pile of cash every time she does this, but the cash is HER budget and resources, and it doesn’t affect your pay at all. (I’m not saying at all that it’s unreasonable to feel slighted or frustrated, I probably would too, but I’m hoping it might help to try to reframe it so it’s more entertaining than frustrating.)

      1. Lana Kane*

        This approach helped me when I was feeling like none of my work really mattered to my boss. It helped to tide me over until I found something else.

      3. Frustrated Optimist*

        A variation of this has helped me with my current situation of being underutilized in my current job, and having no luck in finding something else, despite an intensive 2.5+ year search: A friend of mine commented that my current company is funding my job search. Ha ha! Good point!

    2. zora*

      I am so tired, but I am not dealing with that! That would make me want to scream if that happened when I am this tired. Our boss sort of does this but on a much smaller scale, it’s usually on one piece of a larger project, and not every single time.

      I don’t have a good reason for being so tired, I just can’t really sleep lately for some reason. But, tiredness solidarity over here, and I hope we both get some sleep soon!

  103. She's Leaving Home*

    I started my job about 9 months ago, and I love it. However, I started right after the busy season ended and really have only experienced the slower months. I did well then, but now the busy season just started for this year and I feel totally overwhelmed and frazzled, and just mentally and physically exhausted. People who work long, stressful hours — how do you cope?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Self-care is the top priory. Simplify everything you can think of and then keep thinking of ways to simplify more stuff. If you drive to work see if you can find someone near you who would be will to take turns driving.

      I had a set bed time. I went to bed no matter what was left undone.

  104. Sara*

    Does anyone know about both legal stipulations and just professional norms/expectations regarding writing samples? I recently wrote a short essay and submitted it as a sample in an application to contribute to a major news source. I really liked the piece and am curious what restrictions are on me for future use. Do I own the piece still/can I submit it to other platforms for publication/does the answer change depending on whether or not they accept me as a contributor? I’m not going to do anything with it unless I am not selected for this position, but am curious overall.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Hm, don’t know. I’m going to watch this question because I had a similar one–I wrote a piece for a content job and didn’t get it, but I liked the piece so I put it on my portfolio as a test sample.

      Anybody?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      This really varies – ask for and read their writers guidelines.

      I can tell you that in the UK if you don’t agree other terms in writing then by default you sell only First British Serial Rights which is the right to publish first. I don’t know about elsewhere. But you should own the piece until
      / unless you are paid for it unless you entered a competition with different rules posted for that.

      In terms of etiquette, generally it’s okay to send an idea to more than one outlet but not to accept a commission from more than one at the same time for the same piece unless you’ve played it with both (eg I once sold articles based on an exclusive interview to one British and one paper based in another country but with the okay from them both). This is less about intellectual property anything and more about not making people look like they’ve been scooped, or promising an exclusive you can’t deliver.

    3. Shoe*

      If you submitted it as a SAMPLE, as in “Here is what I do, do you want to hire me?” then you should be free to publish it elsewhere, as they shouldn’t be publishing it. You absolutely own it.

      If you submitted it TO BE PUBLISHED as in, “Here’s this thing I wrote. Do you want to publish it?” you still own the copyright until you sign a copyright transfer, BUT you may want to research how they feel about concurrent submissions and/or the norms in your field. In some (many) contexts it is frowned upon to shop a piece around to more than one place at a time. If they don’t hire you/publish you, you can certainly publish it elsewhere.

    4. LilySparrow*

      In every writing gig I’ve never applied to or had, links or reproductions of published samples carry a lot more weight than samples you mocked up on spec. So there’s no reasonable expectation that they’d own your samples.

      If they hire you, the rights on your work product after that should be in your contract. But not anything you wrote *before* they hired you. If they didn’t buy it, they don’t own it.

  105. zora*

    Microsoft Training Recommendations??

    I really want/need to up my skills in Power Point and Excel. Please give me your recommendations on the best trainings you have tried, whether inperson classes or online. We also have professional development budgets, so money is no object. Is this an area where you get what you pay for?

    Thanks!

    1. Graciosa*

      What I remember most is honestly the stuff I had to figure out on my own – sorry, it may just be the way my mind works. If I have to solve the problem myself, I’m more likely to retain it than if the instructor showed me.

      Lately I’ve learned how to use constants in excel (always divide by cell C1 rather than changing to C2, C3, etc. as you move down the column) and work with pivot tables (unneeded in for many years of a legal career).

      It’s hard to recommend training when the training I’ve taken didn’t take –

      1. zora*

        Everything I know currently I basically taught myself, and has been find up to now. But my boss needs my help with things more and more and with a really fast turnaround, so I don’t really have time to fumble around and figure things out by trial and error anymore.

        And Power Point is more urgent than Excel, and part of it is actual design principles, because I don’t have a design background and she often wants things to “look pretty” and I don’t really know what to do. That’s why I want to do some actual training.

    2. Admin admin*

      I really like the video training on Lynda.com. You can read the transcript as well as watch the video, and you get exercise files to practice with. I’ve done Excel courses through there.

        1. Admin admin*

          I saw in your other comment that you’re looking for help with design. Lynda does that too. I haven’t tried those courses, but I have looked through the offerings and there’s a lot there. Good luck! :)

          My boss also frequently wants me to “pretty things up” and my gawd I hate that phrase so much.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, totally. The problem is, it works when she is actually talking to our internal designers, and they are super good at those things! But sometimes she needs things fast, and I’m the only person who can do it, but I really don’t have the skills or even just the thought process to know what to do. :o(

          2. Graciosa*

            Sometimes you can figure out what this means with a little observation.

            I have some people I work with for whom this means that colorful images have been inserted in the presentation. A slide about a team needs colorful doll-people (try insert online images and search for team to see what I mean). Recognition needs a cartoon trophy or confetti.

            I strongly suspect real design requires *much* more than this (and totally support Zora’s decision to take classes) but a little observation and a few questions to the boss may move the needle more than you would think.

    3. A Non E. Mouse*

      I second Lynda.com, but also: what do you want to learn to do in each?

      There are some really great YouTube videos for specific categories and even skills.

      I learn better by doing, so I like the YouTube videos because I can pause them, do the thing, then make sure my results match.

      1. zora*

        The reason I am interested in actual classes is that I don’t really know the extent of what is possible in either of these. I can mess around with simple Excel formulas and the most basic pivot tables by trial and error, but I learn better when I understand the larger structure I am learning about and have that to attach the actual tasks to.

        I want to get to the Intermediate-Advanced levels of both, with lots of hands on tips from a teacher who has used these programs a lot. I am past using free videos myself at this point, I’m looking for a more indepth training.

  106. Nye*

    Hoping for advice on Chinese academic culture / etiquette. I was invited to speak at an academic conference in China, and need to book tickets. I’ve had a few emails from the organizers, and they will reimburse me. Great! But, I’m having trouble getting clear guidelines on this (eg we’ll reimburse up to $X for a flight). I’m wondering if there’s a cultural divide where it would be rude for them to say something like that (but it would sure be helpful!).

    We’re all academics, and of course I’m not going to splash out on a pricy itinerary. However, the cheapest options will take 2 days each way, with overnight layovers. I’d like to book a more direct flight and am happy to pay the price difference myself. An added wrinkle is that I have the option of getting a heavily discounted ticket on a very nice airline through a pilot friend. (This would be just little more than the cheapest direct flights, with a stop to see said friend.)

    Any advice on how to handle this, especially from folks with experience in Chinese academic culture? Anything else to be aware of when I correspond with the organizers? I don’t want to be inadvertently rude to my hosts or to the colleague who invited me.

    (FWIW, I think I will probably have to turn my pilot friend’s offer down, since a) I wouldn’t get a standard receipt, and b) it seems like it would get needlessly complicated to explain the situation and ask for partial reimbursement. But I definitely want to pay a bit more to avoid a 12-hour layover in each direction!)

    1. The Networker*

      I recently met some new Chinese colleagues at an academic conference in our field. The Chinese, even academics, love exchanging business cards. Always present your card with two hands, face up, not one American-style, accept with two hands and a little head or chest bow, and then read their card with interest before putting it away. For reference my newly-met colleagues and I are all late-20s-40 and they have all lived and worked in the US for awhile. I’m saying this so you get an idea that there may be differences in level of formality between age groups. My friends are pretty informal. Sorry I can’t be more helpful on the other stuff.

    2. faces of the moose*

      In terms of etiquette: will you be speaking to them in Chinese or English? If in Chinese, remember that titles are a big deal, it’s considered disrespectful to address people who are more senior by their name.

      (This is something I had a lot of trouble adjusting to in the /other/ direction – that it was okay to call my manager by her first name and not by title+surname).

      1. Nye*

        Definitely English. I don’t speak any Chinese language at any level, I’m afraid. Thanks for the title info! It’s been clear from the emails that titles are a thing, but I haven’t known how to address my main contact of the organizers since I can’t find information on his title or position.

        I’m not so worried about mis-stepping with the colleague who invited me; he works extensively with English-speakers and we’ve already chatted via email. But the logistics are being handled by someone else, and this is where I’m second-guessing myself.

        Plus I don’t want to be accidentally rude to anyone when I’m there! I’m always very worried about being an ugly American when traveling, doubly so in a non-Western culture. So any suggestions on how to be a courteous guest are appreciated.

        1. faces of the moose*

          These days I think most people are aware that cultural norms and customs are different in different countries, so I don’t think you’d offend them too much even if you make a faux pas. I can’t speak too much to strict business protocol (and academia tends to be a bit separate anyway). There’s some general cultural stuff, like, if you’re expected to exchange gifts with your contact, don’t open the gift in front of the giver (and be aware of ‘taboo’ gifts like clocks). Usually the safest thing to do is just imitate whatever your counterparts are doing!

    3. zora*

      If they are organizing an international conference, I think the organizers you are talking to are used to working with people from different cultures all over the world. And I don’t think they will be easily offended.

      I would find the simplest way to talk about price, just to limit any language divide issues. I would look at the flights you would prefer, the direct ones, and say, “I am looking at flights that cost $1,800-2,100 USD. Is that acceptable?” and see what they say. Then if they say it is too much, hopefully they will respond with more info about their limits.

      1. zora*

        But I don’t have any first hand experience with Chinese culture, this is just how I would probably approach it.

  107. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

    Another week in the books where I have been told I have a job, but they “can’t tell me what it is” (due to HR timing). Good times! We’ve completed a merger and apparently jobs are with the new company HR department for review. We haven’t been told when we’ll be told. Rumors are end of January, or…April. No manager will say a peep. I was finally allowed to “unofficially” and informally meet people from the other company, which was very exciting. Except. Neither side has any idea if I’m to be their peer, or their manager, or…what. But hey! Oh look! It’s payday! I’ll take it. Have a good weekend, all!

  108. Mb13*

    Is there any way to aproach your boss about loud chewing after he spent the whole meeting chewing gum with his mouth open. I find it very very distracting but it feels like something you cant bring up.

  109. Nathan*

    First time I have posted on here. I’m feeling so lost with myself – I don’t know what I am doing. I am 26 years old, and have worked in care ever since I graduated from university with a degree in health care. To cut a long story short I have returned to my old job after 4 years of living away. When I left the job originally it was mainly because I was burnt out (and there were a few issues at work). I work as nights again in a care home. The problem being is the staff are all burnt out (happens a lot in care homes). Lots of the staff have said they’re leaving and thinking of it, and have advised me to leave beacuse of how bad the place is. The thing is – the place as a care home is really good. The residents are looked after, it’s person centered and that’s great. The problem – is that the staff levels are poor, lots of agency, no real support, and at night working alone with high risk residents is too much. I don’t want to leave my job after recently going back – but I need some advice, support… I don’t know, just something to push me on. I don’t know why I’m feeling like this.

    Thank you.

    1. Alpha Bravo*

      Hi Nathan. I don’t have any wise or motivational words to offer, but I do want to say that what you are doing is important. You obviously care about what you do and the residents you serve. I’m sorry these facilities are chronically understaffed and that people working in such highly stressful positions are so unsupported. It angers me as well, since most businesses of this nature are making more than enough money to adequately staff their facilities and ensure their employees have the tools they need to do their jobs. Bottom line here is you need to do what’s right for YOU. Spend some time thinking about what that is. If it’s continuing in this job, maybe you can make suggestions – like adding staff on shifts where security may be more of an issue, for instance. You may not make any headway but hey, you tried. If you are burned out on this kind of work (and who could blame you?), then think about what kind of work you’d like to do. Good luck.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You have described nursing homes in my state also. One place went down so low that people were doing lifts by themselves and then the back injury epidemic erupted.

      Direct care does have it’s burn out rates. Some special ed teachers told me the rate for their group is about 5 years.
      I don’t know what the rate is in your arena, I am sure it can’t be that long.

      It will take you a bit to figure out what to do next. I would start now, before you get more discouraged. By the time you find something that you think is a really good move, you probably will have been there close to a year.

  110. Angelica*

    Ok friends. I don’t know if this is a rant, or if I am honestly looking for some advice. Stay with me, will you?
    I work for a small market research company. Most of our project end with sending off a PowerPoint report to our clients. As this is our final product, and testament of our work – we have put a lot of effort into creating and crafting better PowerPoints, that tells a good story and are visually engaging.

    I think this part of our work is the most fun, and my managers have allowed me keep developing and polishing my design skills. Today, 50% of my work is designing PowerPoint presentations – and I love it! We definitely made improvements, but there is a lot of more work that we can do. However, as I am not a graphic designer, (neither is any of my colleagues) I have times where feel really conflicted in my work.

    My biggest issue is that we don’t follow any brand standards and I fear it is harming our company identity – because we are not using a consistent style, look and feel across all our touchpoints. If I try to use the same treatment to different reports in colors, fonts, icons, layouts etc, my managers freak out – they feel like everything looks the same and/or that it does not mirror the category we are reporting on. So every report we do, I literally have to reinvent the wheel and come up with a whole new look. It is stressful, as reports usually have a 2-week turnaround, including all writing. However, it allowed me to become more skilled in applying different aesthetic styles etc. At the same time, the whole process with writing reports could be so much more smooth (and less stressful) if we had just one template with design guidelines that we could use for all our reports.

    My managers want each report to look simple, but at the same time it is not colorful enough, it looks too boring, it is not creative enough etc. Without any design background, I am really limited in what I type of ideas I can come up with. They forget that I am not an actual designer. I do research to gather and spark ideas – but I can often not spend much time doing this. I have to go straight to creating, as time is of the essence.

    Then of course, there are always cases where I create things they hate. I learned to accept that what people like is very subjective, and I am always willing to change things to my managers liking (even though it is sometimes nitpicky small details). There are cases where a report was basically done, and then the day prior to sending it off, they feel like the style is so out of touch with what the report is saying, that I have to reapply a whole new style to the 30 slide document. I sometimes agree, sometimes not. But there are definitely cases where I am not defending my design as much as I could/should.

    Don’t’ read this wrong. I really like my managers, and they do allow me a lot of creative liberties. It’s just that I often feel like the finished product is a lot worse than it could be, if I was allowed to use the design principles I picked up over the years and apply them consistently. Either by using one design aesthetic and template across all reports, or in new report templates that I create.

    Anyone that is in a similar position? Or have any ideas on have to navigate this situation?

    1. Sara*

      I feel your pain – I am a one person marketing team and in-house graphic designer for a small business, and there were zero brand standards when I came in. I’m currently devoting all of my time to standardizing EVERYTHING, because attempting to reinvent the wheel every time I had to output something was just not sustainable. For one thing, it’s a horrible environment for creative work, and the owner is all over the place with what she wants. Deadlines kept being missed because every project had to be started from scratch. I don’t think the owners want/see the need for standardized brand guides, but it is SO NECESSARY. So I’m doing all of this work solo, making templates for everything, and praying that when I show them what I’ve done, they’ll agree to implementing them. They aren’t really conceptual thinkers, so you kind of have to make something and put it in front of their face to get them to understand the merit.

      Long story short, I feel you. The only advice I can offer is explain to them that it will improve the product, speed up efficiency, and give the business some very necessary credibility.

      1. Angelica*

        Guess I am not the only one. It’s some comfort.

        Thre where zero standards when i started as well. Right now my sole focus is PowerPoint, but any other material we have is also all over the place! Given I am not even a designer, it’s really been hard to navigate this field. I don’t have the credibility to say why we need to standardize – I guess need to really build up a case for it.

        They are not conceptual thinkers either. I need to put things in front of them, and show them. And I don’t really have the time to do it during work hours.

        My managers like what i do for the most part, but it feels like a gamble every time. Either they will love or hate it. I do feel they really appreicate my work, because they recognize, they can’t do it themselves. But I don’t think they realize the time and efffort that goes into every report and every tempalte i have to create.

        1. Sara*

          Yes, I’m having to put literally everything on hold right now to dedicate my time to making this branding guide. Luckily we’re at a slow part of the year! I feel justified because it’s going to save so much time in the long run.

          But yeah, take comfort in knowing that even being a professional graphic designer, there’s not enough time in a day to handle the rest of my job responsibilities AND do original design work for every project! If I were a dedicated graphic designer, I’d say fine, but with how many things I handle here, doing the design work ONCE and then just plugging in the details is pretty much essential.

    2. Snark*

      I actually ran into this when I worked at a museum, producing digital media for presentations and seminars. I ended up doing a whole style guide. You guys need a style guide.

      First suggestion: track how much of your time is being spent on trying to reinvent the wheel with a totally unique visual look across products vs. actually creating content. My feeling is that you’re spending a LOT of time doing this. Your bosses may not realize that.

      Second suggestion: From a design standpoint, I ended up adopting the use of header images to establish themes. Black or charcoal slide backgrounds, five colors of text, one header font, one body font, and then a header image occupying about the top inch of the slide to establish the theme. That header also contained the presentation title and date and so on.

      You also probably need an outside voice to tell them that a) it’s not actually a problem if there’s visual, thematic, and consistency across reports, b) the report does not necessarily need to be a thematic reflection of the category, and b) that this is why most orgs adopt a consistent branding strategy across their deliverables.

      1. Stormy*

        Caveat to this excellent advice: consider the practicality/audience before going for dark slide backgrounds. My company rolled out a slick new PowerPoint style template with black backgrounds, and customers FREAKED OUT, complaining about paper jams and the deck eating up print cartridges.

        1. Angelica*

          Great point by the way about the blac/colored backgrounds. Our reports are mainly used as documents, so we tend to use white backgrounds predominantly.

        2. Snark*

          These were for screen display in a generally darkened area, so it made sense for us – obviously not suitable for printing.

          1. Artemesia*

            It is pretty easy to create a print deck reversing colors. I often had a handout that included some but not all slides and always prepared a separate print document. (you can also do those pdf so someone can’t essentially steal and adapt your content easily as they can if they have an original PP file — I have seen models and material I created and presented at conferences magically appear in other people’s PP decks uncredited) But often a dark background is more powerful on screen but the same presentation can be printed with reverse contrast by providing that second document.

      2. Angelica*

        I’ts such a comfort to hear someone say ‘You guys need a style guide’. I started one a long time a go. But it quickly got abandonded, because i had to make so many adjustements for each reaport i was asked to do to accomodate my managers, that it defetated it’s purpose.

        I am revisiting it and and buliding a new one. I think all your pointss are valid – espeically about getting an outside voise in to emphasis the importance of a style guide. But that would also involve, how it is meant to be used. will have to find a solve for that.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        This, especially pointing out how much it costs to waste time thanks to the lack of standards and templates. It was my first project at Exjob to redesign and standardize everything, and it improved the look and readability of our reports SO much. I’m hella proud of that.

        In fact, it’s on my resume as
        • Developed and updated report templates for software assessments to ensure uniformity across the department and reduce report distribution time
        • Established style and editing guidelines, including trademark verification

      4. zora*

        “You also probably need an outside voice to tell them ”

        This was my first thought. Compile and bring them RESEARCH (see what I did there) about why companies adopt style guides and how it’s proven effective to establish a brand visually so that every time your clients read one of your reports, they know it is you.

        Start with that, and the analysis of your time Snark mentioned, and see if that will help convince them to establish a style guide/standard template.

        1. Angelica*

          Ha! That’s a very good point Zora on pulling research!

          In totality, it’s cleat I have a lot of work to do on this, if i want to see a change come about. I am glad i poured out my thoughts here. It brought me some clarity and thoughts on what i have to do next. Thanks all!

          1. zora*

            Yeah, this is a big step if they are this resistant to a style guide! I would not want to take it on, I would probably start looking for a new job instead. ;o) And you might not get as far as you would like, but don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Take the steps they will agree to as you can, and just do your best.

            And DEFINITELY keep a list somewhere of the steps you are going through, this will be gold on your resume and in interviews in the future, where you can talk about what you did when a “Boss made a decision you didn’t agree with,” and in general a time you took on a big project and figured out how to move it forward.

            Good Luck!

      5. JS*

        I second these suggestions!

        Something I would add is that if they REALLY want things to reflect the industry of the research you’re doing, there are simple things you can do to make it “different” but not “a whole new Powerpoint design”. The header images / photos Snark suggests is great. Or you might allow certain variables in color. Maybe Teapot Industry always gets the light blue header, or Gravyboat Industry always gets the brown header, etc. You could also include an area in the design for a simple icon that represents the industry. That way it looks “different” but you still have a consistent look to everything.

        Good luck!

    3. LAI*

      Yes, I agree about the style guide! I am not a graphic designer either but I do a lot of amateur design work for my department. Fortunately, my organization has a style guide and templates. So there is a palette of approved colors, a set of approved fonts, several different Word and PowerPoint and InDesign templates to choose from, etc. Some of the templates are very basic so you can easily add new elements using the approved colors and still look like you match the brand.

    4. JackOfAllTrades-MasterOfNone*

      I feel you as well… as someone who is also a one person marketing team / graphic designer it’s a touch situation.
      I agree with both of the other comments but also wanted to add a couple thoughts.

      Each report goes to a different client correct? You could gently remind your managers that your clients only get the reports once (they don’t see the repetition), so creating a template will save you time and to your clients it looks fresh and new.

      You could also perhaps in your research figure out your clients branding and use that in the report (but this could be bad if you get it wrong). My company has been given reports like that and it was very well received by the owners.

      Maybe if graphic design is something you enjoy or want to learn more about you could convince them to pay for some classes?

      1. Angelica*

        Yes, this is exactly right. Each report goes to a new client. I had that exact thoguht, that it’s probably just us that get bored, and feel like we see the same thing.

        However, a lot of our clients are repeat clients, so they will see a great deal of reports from us. Since each report is so customized (managers often want me to draw inspiration from their websites, category, logo etc), there is not even a consistency between reports sent to the same client. I have no clue how this is being recieved by the clients.

        They did allow me to take a graphic design class before – it was very basic, and I learned a great deal. I would love to attend something more practical as a next step, like a workshop or soemthing, to get more hands on advice and practical tips from an experinced graphic designer.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I have no clue how this is being recieved by the clients.

          Can you ask them? Maybe do a short survey. If I were a client, this would really bug me, and I would feel like it makes you look disorganized. But that may be just me, since I’m so document-oriented.

  111. Lana Kane*

    I was just promoted this week into a supervisor role! I’ve been with my employer for many years, in different roles, but never in any kind of management position (moving up here is….not easy). I would love some feedback on a couple of aspects:

    1) I’m being promoted within my current department, which means I’ll be supervising peers. All the feedback I’ve received from my future reports has seemed genuinely positive, but I do foresee a couple of people having a hard time with the adjustment. I’d like some ideas on how to foster a positive working relationship in that situation, while at the same time not undermining myself.

    2) I see a supervisor’s role as being between a rock (managing and supporting your staff) and a hard place (satisfying your upper management). Is it possible to straddle both worlds, where I can advocate for staff, and also ensure I’m letting my bosses see I’m not losing sight of business needs?

    Thank you!

    1. Lana Kane*

      I forgot to add! I asked some of the questions Alison suggests you ask during an interview, and I got amazing feedback from almost all the people who interviewed me. I think that they wanted me for this position anyway, but the questions helped solidify me as a top candidate.

    2. Artemesia*

      I am a big fan of sitting down one on one with each person you are newly supervising to get their insights on what works well and doesn’t work well; it is a listening moment but it also makes clear you are the person who will be making needed changes and is in charge. It gives them a chance to be recognized for their contributions and insights; it is one on one so if you have a toad who would try to embarrass you in a first effort, it is isolated; it will give you some needed information you might not have thought of. And then if possible implement some minor changes based on this feedback if you find useful comments. Sometimes, small changes especially if they deal with small annoyances can help establish your confidence and authority.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      1) Listen to them. You will not be able to fix everything they are talking about. Give them guidelines as to how much can be tweaked or improved. (This could be a dollar amount for new purchases, an increase in work space and so on.) Give them choices. “I can order new desks or new chairs, which would you guys prefer?”
      Take their ideas seriously. It’s fine to say “Can we come back to this in a couple months?”, it’s not fine to pretend you cannot here or worse, tell them yes when you mean no.
      Give credit where credit is due. If Big Boss is over the moon happy about New Idea A, then make sure that he knows Charlie developed that idea, NOT you.
      All these little things build trust and help people to calm down.

      2) Your number one job is to advocate for the company. There is really no rock/hard place going on here, if you really think about it. Let’s say people have not had raises in 3 years. So you tell the Big Boss that this is hurting the company, good people are leaving and you describe other things in this similar vein. You are still advocating for your people but you must connect the dots to explain why it is to the company’s advantage to do this Thing for your people.
      Another way to advocate for your people is a subtle one. Make sure they know what their job is and what the company expects from them. Tell the New Hire, no talking about The Company on Facebook, if that is a big deal at your place. Tell people what they need to know BEFORE they make the mistake.
      And you give with the other hand, you see your employee trying to make that old broken chair work one more day. Ask for a new chair under the heading of a safety issue. Go through your whole department with an eye out to make sure they have what they need and the basics are in working order.

  112. VontrappFamilySingers*

    Okay its time at work for employees to set their goals for 2018.
    I hate doing this so much.
    So much, that I’ve put it off and the deadline is Monday.
    My goals are pretty much to do what I did last year, except that 60% of my job is reactive – I don’t know what I’ll be doing for much of my time, until it happens. (so much)

    1. Menacia*

      This is my issue exactly. Completely reactive, with some projects, and also me being the go-to person for just about everything…how do you put that into a comprehensive self-evaluation?

    2. zora*

      I think your goals then become things like “high internal client satisfaction with my resolving of issues.” Etc?

      of course I am throwing around advice while i am literally here procrastinating working on my own goals, so……..

  113. Elizabeth*

    Last night, on a lark, I submitted an application to the big river online retailer that is taking over the world. They have a 90%-work-remote position that is the parts of my job I genuinely like, with one “preferred” qualification that I don’t currently have but am getting experience in. Not high stakes, because hey, what are the chances.

    I just got an email asking for my references. I have good ones, people who I’ve worked with for a long time in various capacities. I am slightly floored that they’re already asking for them. And maybe a little “um, maybe I really do have a shot at this.”

    1. nep*

      ‘the big river online retailer that is taking over the world’ — Love it.
      Good luck. Let us know.

  114. WorriedEmployee*

    I work for a small branch of an american company that’s located outside the US, and because we’re so small and have so few clients compared to any other branch we sometimes feel like we’re invisible to the rest of the company. I’ve had multiple american coworkers admit that they had no idea the company had a branch in my country.
    Basically we’re going through a really rough patch – mainly we’re unable to get new clients even though head office expects a minimum of new clients from all sales teams every year, and the clients we currently have seem to all be on the verge of cancelling their contract – and because of it, everyone in our office has a gut feeling that we might be closed down soon. Nothing’s certain yet, but two things happened recently that made me wonder if there’s some foreshadowing going on: one, all of the company’s support teams, including ours, received customized t-shirts with the name of all the cities around the world where the company has support teams, but the name of our city was the only one not included. Our boss complained with the manager responsible for manufacturing and sending out the t-shirts, but all she did was apologize and the mistake was never fixed. And two, we recently had an online start-of-the-year meeting for all offices around the world, and they began the meeting by mentioning and showing off a little token everyone received prior to the meeting – a little token that my team never heard of and thus never received. I asked a couple of coworkers that work in one of their american branches, and they confirmed they got the tokens themselves, and even had dozens to spare.
    Are these signs that the head office is pretty much done with us, so they can’t be bothered to make us feel part of the team? Or is it just plain, old mismanagement, and I’m reading way too much into things?

    1. Graciosa*

      You’re not reading too much into it.

      Instead of worrying, I would think about what you want to do next (like save money in case you need it, look for another job, etc.). Action is the best response.

      Good luck.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing that action is the best response. However I have seen situations like this go on for over a decade and the company still never closed the branch.
        My best advice is do not panic but do take action here.

        BTW, the tee shirt thing- most companies would not reprint the tee shirt with the correction. So the fact that they forgot is the main concern, I would not expect corrected tee shirts to show up. Ever.

  115. Ainomiaka*

    Any ideas on how to be more detail oriented that don’t turn into-give yourself anxiety because any tiny mistake is THE WORST? I know I need to do the work, I just over correct.

    1. Admin admin*

      What worked for me is figuring out what processes work best for me and then making them automatic so I don’t forget things or let things slip through the cracks. It can take time to figure out the processes that work best for you.

      Before I start something that needs a lot of detail work, I think it through properly so I’m not having to go back and redo work. I write out the steps and double-check the work. Then when it’s done, it’s done. If there’s a mistake I correct it without agonizing over it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        For our work, my boss and I are heavily into filling out the basic information on the forms and then copying that partially filled out form. It saves doing the basic info stuff each time we have to pull out a form to use.
        I also recommend making up routines for yourself to follow. Let’s say I frequently forget my document that is in the printer across the hall because the phone rang. So I do something annoying like put my car keys in my own way. I get off the phone, why are my keys right here? Oh yeah, 30 page doc in the printer, now I remember.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      1) Talk to other people about mistakes that rattled their cages. Or do a separate post on the open forum here asking people to talk about their mistakes. In the past, lots and lots of people have answered. This is important to see, it’s important to see so many people having mistakes and yet still remain among the living. It helps to put things into perspective.

      2) Vow to work very hard not to make the same mistake twice. When you make a mistake, a really good way to take ownership of that mistake is to figure out how you can prevent it from happening again OR bare bones, figure out how you will catch similar mistakes in the future. Build a plan for each mistake. Is this annoying? YEP. It’s also therapeutic because it puts you back in control of the situation.

      3) Decide that you need to improve your self-talk. If you catch yourself talking harshly to you, then say, “Whoops. I would not talk to a friend like that. Okay, com’on Self. We will fix the mistake and life will go on.” Do this at home also. Watch how you talk to yourself.

      Last remember this one, as a supervisor I could help people fix their mistakes. But if they were going to beat themselves up over it, that was a problem I could not fix. Let people help you. Just decide, it’s okay if someone helps me with what I do not know/understand.

  116. L*

    So I’m hoping to get some feedback, thoughts etc. about something from a previous job. Long story short, I had a monster manager (let’s call her Cersei for the evil person she is) in retail for about a year- she was verbally abusive, harassed me, brought her messy personal problems into work, called me stupid constantly (I have a master’s degree), retaliated via ‘write-ups’, constantly threatened to fire me etc etc etc all the while rejecting any constructive (or otherwise) criticism and blaming anything she did take responsibility for on her mental illness (which was real and diagnosed, but for which she refused to seek any treatment for). I am in my dream job now in a completely different field and am super happy. I’m trying to not focus on the past, and develop myself professionally, but some of this manager’s comments regarding my work are sticking with me. Part of me wants to dismiss everything she said because she was NOT an effective manager in any way, yet if there is any truth to what she is saying I don’t want it to impact me in the future.
    Namely, she said I was poor at taking feedback or criticism, and I would just make excuses constantly. My perspective on this was that if I did something wrong, I wanted to explain my thought process. My reasoning for this was to show that even though I might have made the wrong call, I still put in thought and consideration into what I did. I would admit that what I did was wrong, but would not in every situation agree with her assessment (I didn’t push back all the time, and eventually reached a point where if I did disagree I didn’t say anything at all). Now Cersei would freak out (way beyond what was reasonable for the situation or level of mistake), and would basically assume I had just been neglectful (literally not using my brain, throwing things into place without thought), as opposed to making a mistake- which is maybe why I was so defensive.
    So readers, since I have such little experience with a REASONABLE human as a manager, should I have done this differently? Should I do this differently in the future? I do not and have never thought I am perfect, infallible to mistakes or bad judgement calls, so I by no means think I am one of those people who can do no wrong. I think that’s why this bugs me so much- I like to think I am trainable and coachable. Yet, was what I was doing making excuses? Or was the situation so fraught with extenutating factors (i.e. the verbal abuse) that I should just ignore everything she’s ever said?
    Sorry for the length of this!

    1. Lana Kane*

      You were in a no-win situation with this person. For whatever reason, she was going to flip out at any mistake. So the first thing to do is to try to get her out of your head. You sound like a reasonably self-aware person, one who knows feedback is necessary in order to grow. *Because* you are a reasonable person, you are trying to find any shred of reason in her arguments. Accept that in fact, there may be none, given that no approach you tried ever worked with her.

      In my experience, explaining your mistakes to your boss can be tricky. Some people are cool with this, some people think you’re trying to find excuses. I had a manager tell me once, after every single “mistake” she was bringing up to me turned out to be out of my control, that I “had an answer for everything”. That is true, I did, but this really irked her – probably because the answers were just highlighting that she wasn’t looking into the problem before assuming it lay on her staff (this might explain your boss’s attitude). Whenever the mistake was mine alone, I always owned it. My manager always noted this as a positive in my annual reviews, which made that “answer” comment extra effing annoying!

      So, I’ve taken to framing it this way when I want to explain a mistake I have made. After owning it, I’ll say something like, “In the interest of receiving feedback, may I explain my thought process to you in case there is something I’m misunderstanding?” It usually works pretty well.

    2. Graciosa*

      I think that the smart thing to do is NOT to start your response to criticism by “explaining your thought process.” It is going to sound defensive in most cases. When I want to know what an employee I’m correcting was thinking, I ask.

      The goal in these conversations should be to make sure you clearly understand what the boss is looking for, not to tell the boss about why you were doing something else.

      There are a few – a very few – exceptions. For example there are some fair replies to, “Don’t leave the store before your shift is over as you did on Tuesday.” These might include:
      “I’m so sorry, the fire department ordered me to evacuate the building and told me we would not be allowed to return that day.”
      “I haven’t wanted to say anything, but Evil Co-worker has been persisting in pursing a relationship I have said clearly that I don’t want, and on Tuesday this escalated physically and I was forced to flee for my safety.”

      If it’s not a situation where you are supplying new information that would clearly and completely change my understanding, the response I want to hear is, “Thank you for letting me know. I appreciate the feedback, and will make sure to do X in the future.”

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Explaining your thought process sounds like excuse making to some managers because some managers hear a lot of excuses. You’re trying to show your manager that you understand what went wrong and you know how to fix it. Just directly tell your manager that instead of showing them.

      I’m a big fan of, “I understand what went wrong and how to keep it from happening again” for things in your realm of influence, and “I understand what went wrong this time. In the future how should I handle it if XYZ” for things you can’t control. If your manager wants your though process on the situation, she’ll likely ask follow-up questions. A good manager might ask if you need additional training or resources.

      By the way, you sound really self-aware which is a good thing.

    4. L*

      Thank you for the feedback! I think maybe why I thought giving an explanation wasn’t a terrible idea was because when I was managing staff in a retail-computer program-ish environment, I found it very helpful to know what my reports'(who were mostly summer students, potentially their first job) thought process was. I guess that situation was very specific, in that if they were doing something in the program wrong, it was important to know why they did it, why they thought that was the right way etc. to educate them how to use the program better/so I knew how to fix it.
      So I can see why, unsolicited, this might come off badly to the manager. I really like the scripts people suggested- I actually had tried these types of things with evil Cersei, but it didn’t seem to make a difference so I kindof dropped them/assumed maybe they weren’t applicable either. But obviously, to a *reasonable* manager, they would be completely appropriate!

    5. MissGirl*

      It really is situation dependent. But most of the time if your boss brings up a mistake or error, they don’t care about the your thought process. They want it acknowledged, fixed, and, if applicable, a way to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

      This took me me time to learn because I wanted to defend myself. The only time I would bring in your thought process, is if you don’t understand where you went wrong or you need clarification of how to fix it.

    6. Artemesia*

      Walking through your thought process when reprimanded will almost always look like defensiveness and excuse making. There may be a rare time when that is appropriate e.g. a client is upset about X, maybe discussing a whole sequence of interactions with that client with the boss to try to pinpoint where it went wrong could be a helpful analysis. That would have to be carefully framed with the boss as a ‘help me explore how this went sideways.’ Otherwise ‘me explaining what I did’ will come across as responsibility avoidance.

      Your boss was a jerk, but that doesn’t mean being defensive won’t have a negative effect in future situations. Take the feedback, clarify what that means in changed behavior going forward and then on your own explore how your own processes went wrong.

    7. Kathenus*

      Early in my career I had a supervisor give me feedback on this topic as well, and the way they phrased it always stuck with me for some reason. They said that when they gave me constructive feedback, they wanted me to listen to what they were saying and to “not try to explain why I did what I did”. It took me some time to really take this to heart, but I realized that when I was getting feedback I’d already be thinking of why I did whatever it was they were describing and how to explain that, and wasn’t fully hearing what they were telling me.

      Now what I’ll try to do is to just take in the feedback during the meeting, and then if I really think it’s useful for me to find out more about why my original thought process wasn’t successful, I’d ask them about it later. Something like – “I’ve been thinking of the feedback you gave me yesterday, and wanted to ask some follow up questions”. It’s helped me to be better about listening to what they say in the moment and processing it, and I’d say more than half the time the comment I might have made in the moment doesn’t seem important enough to follow up on the next day.

  117. Another person*

    Question: so my husband hates his job and it has awful hours and he probably should find another one. He also definitely could in our city, probably in a couple months. But, I am finishing up a PhD and home to move back to my hometown when I graduate (which might be in a year, or it might be longer? probably not more than 2 years). The big benefit of his current company is that he could transfer into the office in my hometown relatively easily, and then work for maybe another year and find a new job locally.

    But also, this job is the worst and I feel so much pressure to finish up grad school so he can change jobs. What are your thoughts on changing jobs now? Just looking for some other opinions. It’s hard to find jobs 2000 miles across the country plus if he got a new job here he probably wouldn’t have it for very long. I’m still leaning towards him at least applying for new jobs now (in our current city) because I feel like the worst case is that we have to live in different cities for a couple months while we do job transitions (which would be living at my parents which I could afford) and in the meantime he would get a job with significantly better pay and hours and no longer be working 80+ hour weeks. Also, this is his first job out of school (but he’s had it for 5 years at this point).

    1. Graciosa*

      If my spouse is miserable, this seems like a no brainer – are you asking if your husband should stay miserable every work day for a couple YEARS because it might (or might not!) be a little easier for him to find a job in a few years?

      My answer would be no.

      He has a five year track record at Miserable Employer that would enable him to get a job at Another Employer with significantly better pay and hours. If your time line holds, he would likely have a couple years at Another Employer before (possibly) looking for another job – or arranging to telecommute – or transferring to a new office added as part of the merger 20 months from now. If you’re asking if one 2-year stint would label him a job hopper and destroy his career, it won’t.

      Two years is a long time – things will happen and the job opportunities may be different than you expect (what if the Miserable Employer closes the office you think he’ll be able to transfer to?).

      But more importantly, two years is a long time for your spouse to work 80-hour weeks at a job he hates.

      1. Another person*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to convince him of. (It’s highly unlikely the office will be closed though, since we are moving from one major city to another major city of a big national company, so I can’t probably use that argument). Glad to hear I am not the only person who thinks this.

  118. jazzyisanonymous*

    So, what is your take on a company that called me to request an interview.
    A recruiter called me and set up a time to speak with me for a phone interview later the same week.
    Two days later, I get another voicemail from this company stating that this recruiter had been fired but they still wanted to talk to me, they just needed to set up a new appointment.
    Would you move forward with this?
    I think it’s kind of strange they explained why they needed to reschedule….

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Maybe the recruiter was fired for behaving inappropriately towards applicants? In that case they’d want to reassure applicants without admitting any culpability.

    2. NaoNao*

      Sure, I think it’s a bit indiscreet that they outright said the recruiter was “fired” but I think they just didn’t want you sending emails or making phone calls to someone that’s not there anymore, or being confused or weirded out when a brand new person contacted you.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Maybe they wanted to ensure you didn’t try to contact them via the recruiter? I think it’s fine that they explained – it effectively told
      you why they were messing you about. No red flag in my vision.

  119. Umvue*

    Question for the peanut gallery: Is it appropriate/politic to reach out to say goodbye to a colleague you enjoyed working with who has been let go for performance reasons?

    1. Graciosa*

      I would cut ties with anyone who was let go for “performance reasons” that reflected a serious breach of law or ethics.

      Anyone else, I would treat the same way I would if they had left our shared employer for any other reason.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. If he was let go because he is lousy, how kind it is to let him know you enjoyed working with him and wish him well. The world needs a little more kindness and grace. And think how much better it will make him feel than being treated like a pariash. But if he embezzled, sexually harassed or assaulted a client — you never heard of him.

    2. Thlayli*

      If you were friendly with them you can remain friendly with them. Being bad at their job doesn’t make them a bad friend!

    3. Bagpuss*

      Yes, perfectly appropriate. I think if they were fired for misconduct it is trickier because you don’ want to be associated with them in your employer’s mind, but I think if they were, effectively, a nice person who was an inefficient worker, then that’s fine.
      I think that the only problem would be if they started to vent to you about being let go.

      1. Umvue*

        Yeah, I think that’s what I was worried about. But on reflection I don’t think it’s a likely reaction, because we weren’t workplace BFFs, just friendly. A more likely one is probably “OMG, too soon.”

  120. paul*

    There’s a company I’m familiar with as a consumer that’s relocating to an area I like a lot in the late spring this year. It’s smallish and privately held but it’s been around a long time….seriously debating applying but it’d be a (very) long distance move for us, and I can’t find a damn thing about stuff like P/L statements and it’s small enough that there’s only one very old review on glassdoor (it was negative but mostly about how they approached marketing…and it was years old).

    If a company’s privately held, not publicly traded, and is small–sub 100 employees–do y’all have good tips for finding out about the culture? Particularly when it’s halfway across the country…

  121. JaneB*

    I interviewed for an internal role change yesterday, and I really don’t want the job. It would be a 50% secondment for three years, without a change in pay or grade, but is the type of role “needed” to get the next promotion (and only chance of actual raises – we’ve had CoL increments below inflation for 9 years in a row and I’m at the top of my current role’s pay scale in a flat structure with few opportunities for promotion, so that is quite attractive). It’s a high-level data coordinating/strategic/influencer type role (no direct reports, but a LOT of mentoring/training new colleagues and networking with other departments/levels of the organisation, which appealed to me as I really like coaching and mentoring, along with reporting paperwork and firefighting in the relevant area). Our unit of a larger entity has a boss who directly line manages over 100 people (yes, this is daft, but it is what it is), and is supported by a team of about 5-7 people who each have the sort of responsibilities described for one part of the work of our department, plus about 10 people who are “appraisers” and each meet with about 10 more junior colleagues every 3 months to do the equivalent of a one to one check in with your boss on objectives etc., but have no actual ability to DO anything other than ask the boss to do things. I work in an academia-adjacent area, as you may be able to guess by the impressive strangeness of the system.

    Anyway, I applied and got interviewed. I asked the “how will the success of the person in this job be measured?” question (THANK YOU for suggesting that one Alison!) and got a whole list of metrics which relate to the entire super-department, and include things like the results of national student satisfaction surveys and positions in national league tables which are out of the control of the department, never mind of one person with no actual power, just “influence” and the responsibility for doing the paperwork. I have an anxiety disorder, and I do like to have control over SOME PART of how other people will judge me… I also asked about hand-over (from the current post-holder to me of the new role, and my current duties to other people) and got told “well, post-holder has already moved on to their new role in another part of the organisation, but I’m sure they’ll give you some advice. And we’ll try and transfer 50% of your current work away over the next six months, if possible”. I also discovered that although the position reports to boss, it also is expected to perform “duties as necessary” for some people senior to boss at the next level of the organisation. I know these people a bit, and unreasonable and unrealistic expectations are the norm.

    So I’m sitting here hoping to hear I didn’t get the job. Because if I DID, and turn it down, it will be Very Awkward (boss holds grudges and goes on about things at length if one does something he didn’t want one to do, even if he never told one not to do it because he was too busy to open his email/meet a person). And there is no way I want to do it now.

    Suggestions of wording welcome if I do need to turn it down, but mostly just venting!

    1. Lana Kane*

      You could say that after hearing more about the job you aren’t confident it’s right for you. Although I know applying internally and then turning it down can be super tricky business. But you also don’t need to walk into something that you know won’t work for you.

      Here’s hoping you don’t get it! lol

  122. Stormy*

    Ever since the IRS hack, my landline and cell numbers have been inundated with phishing calls. I am so tired of my stupid, gullible husband calling me at work in a panic because he’s going to be arrested by the IRS or because my elderly uncle got injured while traveling. It’s gotten to the point where I’m worried about being told to lay off the personal calls. I can’t send him to voicemail, because I’m afraid what stupid hijinks he might pull if he can’t reach me.

    I wish you could smack people with a Common Sense Stick.

    1. NaoNao*

      Wow…sounds like your husband is almost more of an issue than the calls! Can you ask him to text or email you?

      And set his expectations: “Hon, I’m at work and I’m starting to get friction about these frequent personal calls. Please text me and that way I have the information I need to research the situation in print and it’s easy to refer to.”

      If he’s pulling “hijinks” (calling the front desk? calling other relatives? or…worse?) I think that’s a sit down and reset expectations in a major way moment.

      “Hon, I love you and I love that you’re a trusting person. But we’ve been over this. [Show him the IRS notice that says they will not call you and threaten arrest]. These scammy calls are dangerous and it’s starting to affect our relationship. I need you to commit to not answering the phone to unknown numbers that aren’t in our contact list. If the call is serious and sincere, they will leave a voicemail and you can return. If it’s a scammy IRS call, again, please read this. The IRS does not call and threaten arrest. It says so on their website right here. Just block those #’s and let’s move on.

      I need you to commit to being more alert and more discriminating in both the calls you take and the times you contact me at work, can you do that?”

      I work for a major telecom, and they have a *wonderful* blocking app that easily identifies crank/phishing/telemarketer/scam calls and blocks them…automatically. It’s called [Provider] “Call Protect”. If you’re with a major “Three letter” telecom, please search this and install it on your and your husband’s phones. If he’s calling you regarding landlines, perhaps an unlisted # is in order?

    2. fposte*

      Can you get Hiya or NoMoRoBo or something for the landline so that they get filtered before he gets the call? Let technology save the humans.

    3. Brownie*

      I’ve started answering the phone as if it is a business and then stopping the person mid-spiel to say “This is a business phone.” Every time I’ve done that they immediately apologize and hang up and I never hear from that # again. The number of calls I’ve been getting has dramatically decreased since I started doing that. If possible it might be worth having call forwarding set up on the landline to go to your cell and then using the above to at least decrease the number of calls as well as getting your number off the “personal #” list the scammers use. Other than that… so many wishes of good luck for you. Been there, done that with an elderly relative and the stress of it all is horrible.

    4. Been There, Done That*

      Is there a reason you can’t just change your home number and skip the “this number has been changed to xxx” feature? Spouse has had the same stalker for almost 20 yrs, and we have to do this fairly frequently as a result. It’s a bit of a pain to update our friends & family, but we basically just keep the facebook privacy settings cranked down & post the new number there each time as well as calling people like grandparents to let them know.

      I know it seems unfair to have to change it, but if he’s that anxious it might be the easiest option.

  123. Stephern*

    I’ve been giving a lot of thought about changing careers and moving away from traditional office work. To what? I don’t really know. Does anyone have any suggestions on non-office jobs (or just something where the majority of the work doesn’t happen in the office)? Any field is fine; I’d just like ideas to explore.

    Thanks much!

    1. Out of the box*

      Trades – plumber, electrician, etc.
      Mechanic
      Landscaping
      Computer field tech – repairing POS terminals, gas pumps, etc.
      Field techs that take soil or water samples
      Working at a water treatment plant
      Oil & gas
      Event or VIP security
      Bike courier
      Delivery driver
      Long haul truck driver (still lots of sitting though)
      Working at a casino or bowling alley
      Retail, hospitality, restaurants

      There are lots of things, just depends on what you’re interested in and how much education you want to get.

    2. NoodleMara*

      Agriculture has a number of different types of positions that have field work, farms, livestock, seed companies, nurseries, Forestry can be an option too. Working with animals. Parks and wildlife. Even some post office jobs or delivery services. Probably some nonprofits would have not office jobs especially if they’re focused on outdoors/animals.

    3. Al Lo*

      Performing arts:

      Ushering/box office/customer service at theatres or other venues
      Technical staff — set builders, costume designers, painters, lighting technicians, etc
      Instructors — private lessons, children’s classes, adult recreational arts organizations
      House technician for a theatre/venue
      Performer/artist: actor, instrumentalist, etc.
      Stage manager
      Tour manager
      Third-party gig companies (i.e. providing sound, staging, lighting for concerts, festivals, and events)

  124. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Can anyone shed some light on why U.S. FMLA/maternity leave policies are the way they are compared to other countries? Please tell me if this sounds like the standard:

    1. My state allows up to 14 weeks of leave, guaranteeing your position back afterwards- fine, ok.
    2. When I asked what percentage of the leave would be paid, I was told employees are paid out of PTO, and once PTO runs out, payments stop. I was shocked to hear this, as I work in a hospital and would expect better. Is this standard policy, or does this seem unfair? Also, this was never communicated to anyone during our standard onboarding- it seems hidden, in a way. It would have been helpful to know, “Never take a vacation if you want income during your 4-month leave.” To be fair, we get 30 days vacation and can rollover a maximum cap of 450 hours, but it takes years to get to that point. If I were to go on leave and get paid for nearly 12 weeks, I would need to refrain from taking any time off.
    3. I have a month accrued now, and have a two-week honeymoon in June. Panicking and futurizing, I know, but my situation is such that I cannot afford to survive 3-4 months without pay, and returning to work after less than 3 months when the baby is so small and fragile seems even worse. (Not to mention the fact that I have no retired family members as free babysitters)

    Sorry for the rant. I’m trying to educate myself better on these things. Any insight would help. Please be nice.

    1. Red Reader*

      It’s not unusual in the US for maternity leave to be paid only out of PTO or short term disability, no. I certainly wouldn’t expect them to need to clarify that during onboarding, because it’s weird that anyone working in the US isn’t already aware that paid maternity leave is not a universal thing.

      1. GarlicMicrowaver*

        Then why do some of my friends at other companies get partial payment? Can companies devise their own policy? (My friend works for a non-profit and gets 6 weeks paid, without needing to use PTO.) I have also heard of other who have been paid for the entire 3 months, 50-60% pay. So I don’t think it’s “weird” as you say.

        1. Murphy*

          Yes, there’s a minimum that’s required through FMLA, but companies can be generous if they choose to.

        2. Red Reader*

          “Can companies devise their own policy?”

          Well, yes. There is no legal requirement for it, but companies can certainly choose to offer paid maternity leave if they want to. And I didn’t say that offering paid leave is weird. I said it’s weird that someone who has worked in the US would somehow be surprised at a company not offering paid maternity leave. I’ve never worked any place that did, including several hospitals and health care orgs.

            1. Red Reader*

              Take a look at any short term disability offerings your org might have. Ours are opt-in, not company paid, and you have to opt into the plan before you actually are pregnant, but it’s a coverage program that covers a percentage (ours is either 50 or 60, depending on the level you choose) of your salary for up to 26 weeks of short term disability, after a (2 or 4) week waiting period. Our program, at least, includes pregnancy/postpartum period in the short term disability qualifiers.

              2. DCGirl*

                Yes, but… you can only collect short-term disability for the period of time in which you are actually disabled from giving birth, generally four to eight weeks depending on whether or not you have a caesarian. STD does not cover the period of maternity leave that is considered time to bond with the baby.

        3. The Person from the Resume*

          Companies can always offer more than the legal minimum maternity leave benefits. It’s perk used to attract employees or just something they think is kind and fair for employee.

    2. Murphy*

      Yup, normal. Mine was the same way, so I took less leave. I took 8 weeks, but only had enough leave saved up for 5. We had a system where people could “donate” sick leave, so I did get a little extra, but I still had to take unpaid time.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        It’s also really hard when you get back, because you’ve typically depleted all your sick and PTO time, and now you probably have a little kid in daycare so someone is ALWAYS SICK. Many daycares have fairly strict rules about not coming in when your baby is kind of on the “maybe sick” bubble, too, which makes sense from their POV but makes it even more difficult to arrange care, especially for single moms.

    3. The Person from the Resume*

      I learned from reading AAM that this fairly normal maternity leave in the US. As a woman who hasn’t and won’t have children I don’t have the need to get into the details.

      I think that until I read ask a manager, I assumed, like you, that maternity leave was paid, but until I started reading ask a manager I didn’t know unpaid time off was a thing allowed. I figured if you were out of time off you either came back to work or quit.

    4. Kay*

      This is 100% normal in nearly every situation that friends and family members have been in. It’s the policy on the books for my own particular workplace (small nonproft). I’ve also never been at a workplace that has included maternity leave info as part of employee onboarding. (And I’ve worked, albeit part-time, at huge international companies with 3 solid days of personnel briefing before I got to a desk.)

    5. Judy (since 2010)*

      The FMLA doesn’t have any pay attached, but generally there is a period you can get short term disability. For uncomplicated vaginal births, 6 weeks, and uncomplicated c-section 8 weeks. Basically, if someone has, say, a hernia operation and gets 6 weeks STD, then after giving birth to a child, you should get STD. Usually STD is a percent of pay, something like 50-60%. Some places you would have to sign up for it in the benefit enrollment, some places give it to you automatically.

    6. Reba*

      Since there is no law that companies in the US *must* offer PTO, they can more or less do with it what they like. There are some state-level and city-level regulations.

      Look into short term disability, which might be offered by your employer or by your state. (Check your state’s Department of Labor [Ha].) You might be able to string together STD + PTO and do ok.

      Ask or observe how other new parents do it in your workplace–is part time return an option?

      Also remember that you need to be working there for 12 months before your qualify for FMLA.

      Good luck!

    7. Andy*

      it can be terrible. I had to use most of my leave during my 2nd pregnancy because of medical maintenance, etc so when I got to the part where my body actually births the child I had almost 0 leave. Fortunately I work for a state that recently passed an 8 week fully paid maternity leave law otherwise my family’s health insurance would have lapsed, I’d have had to take my other kid out of daycare while taking care of a new infant, and then his spot most likely would have been unavailable when I was ready to put him back in.
      Then (as another commenter mentioned) the realities of two adorable petri dishes spreading germs between each other and amongst us came down like a ton of bricks and I am just now, at my 2nd’s 2nd birthday, stepping back from the raggedy edge of no leave whatsoever. Every time school is two hours late for ice I can feel my veins opening and spilling my leave onto the cold cold ground.
      Hoard your time, woman. Hoard it selfishly and possessively. When you feel the sniffles coming on just remember that there will be future sniffles and they will be coming from many more nostrils.

    8. Consulting Gal*

      Try applying for short term disability if you have it. I have heard of some women who are able to use that during maternity leave

    9. Friday*

      Make sure you know your state’s laws too; a few are better then federal. I’m in CA and on leave right now, and while my company pays nada, they do provide STD for all employees which pays out at 60% my regular pay, then CA provides another 6 weeks paid family leave for both parents, also at 60%.

      Actually it’s now 70% of pay in CA starting this year, but my little goober who was due mid-Jan decided to sneak his birthday in right before Xmas instead.

  125. Just Peachy*

    I have my annual review today. I’ve gotten glowing comments from higher ups all year, but the word “review” still makes me nervous in this context! My company has been pretty bad about giving annual reviews (like they’re supposed to), so I actually haven’t had one in almost two years. At the last one, I received 3 out of 4 in pretty much every category, which was frustrating because the comments my supervisor left with each question were glowing. Big Boss mentioned that “no one can get a 4 unless you take a bullet for someone.” Luckily, our bonuses are not based off of the reviews, but it’s still frustrating! I fully anticipate the same thing to happen this time around!

      1. Decima Dewey*

        I have to deal with annual review from both sides. Since I’m an Acting Branch Manager, my boss will be giving the actual reviews. I will have input.

        For my own, I have until next Friday to come up with “successes” for 2017 that don’t consist of “didn’t run screaming from the branch.”

        On the plus side, once I have my annual review, I can tell my staff to just take a message when Annoying Ex-boss calls me about something that could be handled by email or by putting something addressed to me into interoffice mail. She transferred in July and will have input for my review. But after that, I can ignore her. If I have a choice, I will never work with her again. And I’ve been in the system 25 years and have never had to say something like that about a former supervisor.

    2. Just Peachy*

      It went great! I had to do a self evaluation beforehand. The questions were on a 1-5 scale, and I gave myself almost all 3’s and 4’s. My boss (who is a different boss than the one I had two years ago) actually bumped my score UP in his own reviews of me on several of the categories. He gave me more than a few 5’s! I’m very thankful to have a boss who doesn’t tell me it’s impossible to get the highest score.

      A few years back, in a really awful, toxic corporate environment, so it was extremely refreshing to hear all the nice things my current boss had to say about me. He’s very supportive and has the confidence in me that I don’t always have in myself.

  126. RumHam*

    Curious about what everyone’s thoughts are about Ziprecruiter and their “1-Click Apply” apply button. I’ve applied to quite a many jobs this way (with no luck) and didn’t realize you could go back after and ad a cover letter. Once I found out that you could add the cover letter I went back and included them but quite some time had passed on some of the applications.

    Do employers who post their jobs on sites like ziprecruiter expect cover letters? Does anyone have experience using sites like this? Thanks

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I used them a couple of times and found this particular idiosyncrasy maddening. Indeed has a space for your cover letter right where you upload the resume file. You can just copy and paste it in. Yes, I always include a cover letter.

      If you know you’ll have to apply through Ziprecruiter, you could make one document for that job with the letter first, followed by the resume. I’ve done this when I couldn’t see any place to post it.
      1. I save my resume as a separate file and add a blank first page to it.
      2. Then I paste my cover letter on the blank page, put a section break at the end of the letter, and format it how I like. My resume has a footer but I don’t want that on the letter; hence the section break.
      3. Then I use Cute PDF Writer (free extension that works in Word) to print it as a PDF and save that to my Applied job folder. When I apply, I just upload the file where I would put the resume.

      If you do this, make sure you name the file so you’ll know what job it was and don’t accidentally grab it for the wrong one. Mine always look like EWest Teapot Editor XYZ Company Cover Letter and Resume.

  127. Cover letter question*

    When I apply to a company that I have interviewed with before and was going to be offered the position, is that something I should mention in a cover letter? This is a very small company and I will definitely be talking to the same people if they bring me in to interview as the owners make all the hiring decisions. I’m applying for a different position than the one they were going to offer me before (I found out they were planning to make the offer when I removed myself from consideration when I accepted another offer). This was all two years ago. If they had offered first two years ago, I would have accepted their offer over my current job.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I would. Something like,

      Last October, I met with Mr. Boromir to discuss my candidacy for an armory attendant position at the Osgiliath office. While I chose not to pursue that position, I still retain a strong interest in working for the Gondor Company.

  128. SMART Goals for Comms Ppl*

    Howdy, My boss would like us to develop SMART goals for the upcoming year with no guidance. I’m in a marketing/communications position, however the metrics that seem obvious (social, email, web, sales, advertising) are all owned by other channel managers so thy’re not really mine to claim. I work on all these deliverables with my product managers but they are executed by other teams so it’s odd. Any ideas on measurable goals for this type of role? Our boss offers zero guidance and is a complete bully so any clarification will come in form of anger at goal meeting.

    1. GarlicMicrowaver*

      I’m in a similar position and need to deliver on metrics. Do you have access to your company’s Facebook page? You should, and you can easily pull insights from there. Same with Google Analytics.

      If you work with other vendors (not sure what “channel managers” means?) you have the right to ask for reporting. Otherwise, what’s the point of executing anything?

      What’s your industry? That might help better answer your question. It all depends on how success is being measured organization-wide. For my industry, it’s volume in the form of appointment booking and surgical procedures.

    2. Reba*

      Do you have countable deliverables that you give to the people in charge of social accounts, ad, etc.? Or countable hours that you spend supporting them, which translates into X quantity engagement on the website? If your work contributes to the product that goes out on those channels, IMO you can take some credit for it.

    3. NW Mossy*

      You are perfectly timed, because I was just setting my own goals for 2018 and one of them is to get stronger at coaching my employees on setting goals and planning for success. Mind if I practice on you? :)

      If your work goes through a review/quality-check process, you can use the results of those as a straightforward metric. For example, if it’s expected that any piece you contribute is assessed by someone else before it goes on to the next step, your goal could be for X% of your pieces to require no changes before moving forward in the process.

      Also, measuring intangibles gets easier when you break things down to the part that is tangible. For example, I had an employee who needed to work on building better relationships with her teammates. Part of what she did for her “metrics” was to accumulate examples each week of interactions (emails, short write-ups of conversations) and present them to me in her 1:1. It helped us see very tangibly that she was making progress because we could count how many positive responses she got vs. negative ones as a sign that people were seeing a change in her behavior with them. Emails, calls, meetings, etc. are all countable – you just have to decide which ones count for what purpose.

  129. BananaStand*

    Technical question – Is this site buggy for anyone else or is it just me? It frequently crashes my browser. I’ve submitted a tech report before but never received a response. Any advice would be much appreciated.

    1. Admin admin*

      Sometimes if I leave the site open too long it slows down my whole computer. I have to ctrl-alt-delete to get task manager and shut the browser down that way.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Yes! I have to do precision in-and-out scanning of AAM – if I open too many old pages or stay on the site too long, it seems to take down my whole internet (even another browser, which my IT guys said isn’t possible) until I restart the machine. Been this way for a while now. I’m terrified that I’m downloading some terrible virus on to our offices computer system but I love the advice so much …

    5. Been There, Done That*

      I find it gets a ton of script errors that will eventually crash it if I use IE, but is fine in Mozilla.

  130. Wannabe coder*

    Any advice for getting a job as an entry level coder?

    I have a degree, but not in Computer Science. I did start off majoring in that (many years ago) but due to life circumstances (having a baby) I switched to an easier major. I started a fast track web development course a couple of years after graduating, but due to more life circumstances (family member’s suicide) I wasn’t able to finish that.

    So now the baby is all grown up and set to start university in September, and I want to do something different with my life.

    I do have an aptitude for coding, and I’m good at math. I learned Python on my own and recently learned SQL. I manage to work coding into my current job (writing Excel macros to automate some stats stuff I’m responsible for).

    I’ve taken some courses on Lynda.com but I know they don’t “count” as qualifications. I’m considering going back to school, maybe doing an online degree in computer science, but it’s quite expensive. My company may pay a small amount each year toward courses.

    Is there a way for someone self-taught to break into the field? I also feel like my age and gender (38f) might make it hard for me to compete against young people fresh out of university. Is that true or is that my fear talking?

    1. Colette*

      This really depends on the employer, but experience counts more than academic qualifications in the field. (That doesn’t mean academic qualifications, don’t matter, but they aren’t always required.)

      But right now you don’t have significant experience or qualifications, if I’m reading this correctly, so I think you should figure out how to get one or the other. The most straightforward path is through school, but there are probably other paths (volunteer to build a tool for a non-profit that needs one, do freelance work, etc.).

    2. Reba*

      People I know have had success with the coding bootcamp type courses (mid-20s to late 30s). I don’t know if that’s an option for you, but the good ones are definitely credible, more so than doing self-directed Lynda type stuff.

      See if your community is offering any of these types of trainings–a town I used to live in sponsored a “code school” that was part self- and part instructor-led. Joining a group for other people getting into programming in your area could also put you in the way of freelance gigs.

      Many software recruiters use skills tests, so being able to demonstrate your abilities can take you far even without work experience.

      Good luck!

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Do you contribute to any open-source software projects? Those can absolutely go on a resume, similar to volunteer experience. If said projects are hosted on GitHub or a similar publicly accessible site, you can provide a link to your GitHub profile, and it will function as a portfolio. By the same logic, putting any personal coding projects you may have done on GitHub (even a simple website) will be similarly valuable. I will note that I deliberately use a gender-ambiguous handle on GitHub, because I’m in a similar demographic to you. (Helped by the fact that I have a gender-ambiguous first name to base it on.)

      Are there any groups sponsoring group coding sessions? In my city, the local chapters of both Women Who Code and Girl Develop it offer monthly meetups specifically for the purpose of working on coding projects in a group setting. There is generally a mix of skill levels from beginner to advanced, and people attending range from students to job changers to experienced professionals. This can be a good way to a) set aside time to work on those personal coding projects, b) get help with your questions, and c) meet other people in your area who work or want to work in the field. (Note: Despite the names of the groups hosting the sessions, the group coding sessions in my town are open to all genders.)

      Also, if you do go for an online degree, consider if an Associates degree would be enough to get you past the screeners for the jobs you want to apply for. That’s what quite a few of my colleagues have.

    4. Michaela*

      Try contributing to open-source projects. It’ll help prove your skills, give you a portfolio, etc.

    5. Triple Anon*

      Use your skills to build something that you can show to employers. I know that at least a few years ago, Git Hub was one place where people did that. But there are tons of options. A lot of companies care more about what your skills are than what your work history is. So do a project and show it off.

      The skills you mentioned are usually in high demand. I would focus on that, be confident, and not worry too much about how you got there or what you did before. If anything, talk about it as a strength in that it gives you a different perspective.

      Good luck! I hope you find a good job!

  131. Mockingjay*

    Regular commenters know about my Meeting Minutes Saga from ExToxic Job.

    I just got asked to take minutes in meetings next week, even though we have plenty of admin and program support staff available. I have technical work to do and it won’t be finished on time because I am losing 3 work days to the meetings. (Yes, I let the project lead know of the slip. He wants me there.)

    My question for the commentariat is this:

    Is it really so difficult to find people who can listen and take clear notes? Is that why I am continually singled out? Are others plain lazy? Is notetaking that unusual of a skill? (If so, I should get a big frickin’ raise per market demand.)

    I work in an industry in which everyone, regardless of role, has a higher degree or possesses extensive technical and professional certifications. They had to be able to take notes to get through those classes. They attend or present briefings with high-level officials, so I know they can note key concepts and action items.

    I dialed into an engineering teleconference recently, and one of the team engineers said, “thank goodness you’re on, Mockingjay. Now I don’t have to take notes.” Dude, I wasn’t on the call to take notes. I was giving status on a system requirements document I’m writing. I have a different role on this project than I did at ExToxic Job, so I don’t know why he thought that.

    I give up.

    1. AngelfoodorDevilsfood*

      Treat any note taking comments as a playful joke. “Ha, sorry about that team engineer, but you are stuck with it!” said with a saucy wink. “I feel your pain though!”

    2. Temperance*

      Let me guess …. you are a different gender than the other team engineer, and the PM.

      I would push back on taking notes. It’s not a skill, it’s not hard, but it’s something that actual contributors shouldn’t be doing. This is crap.

    3. Thlayli*

      Honestly it is extremely hard to find someone who can take useful notes in a technical meeting. Most admins who don’t have the technical knowledge simply aren’t up to the job.
      I have a PhD in mechanical engineering and I have taken minutes in many meetings. As have many male engineers I work with.

    4. Anon Male Engineer*

      Is there any Junior Engineer who can be seconded as official secretary? At my last workplace, it was seen as a good task for developing engineers when early in their careers. The fear was that the admin staff might have missed some technical nuances, and anyway were rarely available for minute taking. This is especially the case when specialized terminology is used; ABC and BC are in fact synonyms, but BCD is something completely different.

      When I did the task, I found that knowing I simply had to record enough to generate the minutes focused my mind a lot. Many times in the silence after a long debate, I had to ask “Now, what decision do you actually want me to minute here?”, which would sadly highlight the fact that no true conclusion or agreement had been reached.

  132. Marvel*

    I reported two coworkers for a Title IX violation (I’m working as a graduate assistant at a university as part of getting my MA) and I’m having conflicting feelings about it.

    Some background: I went to this university for undergrad as well, so all the faculty/staff and some of the junior and senior undergrads know me already. I was pretty well thought of in undergrad, received several awards for my work in the department, and maintained a really good reputation (I’m confident that I could get a glowing letter of recommendation from basically anyone in the department, if I asked). However, I am relatively unknown to most of the grad students and the newer undergrads.

    The guys I reported are… well, they’re not bad guys. They’ve been friendly with me and I don’t think they mean any harm. But they made a lot (a LOT) of sexually inappropriate and explicit jokes/comments my first week here, as well as some pretty misogynistic comments. I approached one of the female undergrads about it (“I’ve noticed this and it makes me uncomfortable, does it ever make you uncomfortable?”) and she said she and several of the other female undergrads had indeed been made uncomfortable by it and had finally reported it to our immediate supervisor the previous day. At this point, I felt I had to speak up at a higher level, as I was the only one working in that area who had enough of a relationship with the graduate coordinator (our boss, as grad assists) to feel comfortable doing so. I reported it to him, he reported it to the department head, and an official Title IX complaint was filed under my name (with my okay).

    In the days since, our immediate supervisor talked to them about it, and things have gotten better. I don’t think they realized how out of hand it had gotten. (There are also more people working with us, since the undergrads have started registering for hours, so the 3-4 guys who tend to perpetuate the kind of “boys club” culture can’t really clique up with each other and start goofing off anymore.)

    On the other hand, I do think they knew it wasn’t okay, because they NEVER did in front of our supervisor. They had training from HR as part of their assistantship, including training on sexual harassment and hostile work environments. They’re a PhD student and an MA student and the people they were making comments to/in front of are undergrads, which adds a questionable power imbalance. And I really felt like I HAD to report it, as one of the only people with enough political capital in the department to be sure I would be listened to. I’m a 26-year-old man (transgender, so I have a little bit more experience with this sort of thing than most), so if it made ME uncomfortable, I can only imagine how an 18-year-old woman would feel. The faculty have my back, assured me that I was not overreacting, and thanked me for coming forward.

    But… these are nice guys. As far as I can tell they’re well liked, and pretty friendly with everyone. They were being inappropriate, but they’re not Satan. They have, as far as I’ve seen, stopped the behavior after our supervisor talked to them. But there’s still going to be an HR investigation, because of what I did. And I’m terrified that they’ll know it was me who reported it, which is not out of the realm of possibility (I was the only new person in our area this semester and it’s a small department). I don’t want this to implode my graduate career. I’m scared that maybe I overreacted.

    On the other hand, they were 100% creating a hostile work environment and it needed to stop and I was in a position to stop it. And I have never, ever had to report something like this in the department before–it broke my heart to see it happening in a place that has come to mean so much to me.

    Argh.

    Did I overreact? Did I do the right thing? Help me sort this out.

    1. Murphy*

      Without knowing specifics, just hearing that they made multiple people uncomfortable, it sounds like you did the right thing. I totally understand why you’d feel anxious about it, but good job! We need more people reporting inappropriate behavior.

    2. selina kyle*

      It sounds to me like you did the right thing! Their behavior has changed so you’ve made the situation better for others, that’s what matters.

    3. beanie beans*

      You did the right thing! For your coworkers, yourself, and future women who have to work with them. You did them a favor also, I hope, in waking them up to how inappropriate they have been.

      I hate that you’re scared that this will implode your graduate career. Because of their actions. I get it, I relate to it, I just hate that this is our system.

      Thank you for standing up!

    4. Overeducated*

      The bar for reporting is not “actually Satan,” and giving people a pass for not being Satan is what allows harassment to go unchecked. You did the right thing, and I really admire your being conscious of having capital and putting it to ethical use. I hope there are not repercussions for you for doing it.

    5. mf*

      It sounds like you handled this exactly right. Thank you for looking out for the younger women around you. I hope you have the opportunity to be a manager in the future (if that’s what you want), because it sounds like you have the integrity and judgment to be a great one.

      1. Marvel*

        I was really touched by this comment–thank you. The role I’d like to get in my field after graduation is a management role, as a matter of fact. I actually performed that role for the university all through undergrad, which is part of why I’m a relatively well known and trusted figure in the department even after graduation. That’s probably also why I feel so protective towards the other students–protecting them was literally part of my job for three years.

    6. Lumen*

      I think you did the right thing.

      PS – We need to start spreading the news that ‘nice guys’ don’t make misogynistic comments that they clearly know aren’t okay. They can smile and be charming and friendly and tip their waiters and so on and so forth but if they make ENTIRE GENDERS feel uncomfortable so that they can laugh it up, they are not ‘nice guys’.

      2. Reba*

        I had the same reaction at “nice”! OP you have seen for yourself that they are only selectively “nice,” when the people that they think matter can see them.

        1. Lumen*

          Exactly. I think I get what the OP meant: that these guys are good at appearing and performing as ‘likable’… because our culture does not remove ‘likability’ from men even when they spout this sort of nonsense. Our culture doesn’t like to say a man is unlikable until a man is monstrous.

          And I disagree about their likability, but I do understand that perspective (because it is awfully wide-spread). We just need to start understanding that there is a wide, wide space between ‘nice guy’ and ‘Weinstein/Nassar/Satan’. And just because you’re not one doesn’t mean you’re the other.

      3. Marvel*

        It’s so odd to be on the other side of that point when I’m usually the one making it! Thank you. It’s sometimes hard to see clearly when you’re the one in the situation vs. seeing it from the outside.

    7. NaoNao*

      If it makes you feel better, making sexual and misogynistic remarks only to vulnerable young women is NOT nice. They may have manners. They may be friendly…to you. They may even be “not evil.” But they are not “good people” in my opinion. I get that single instances or mistakes or even crimes committed when young aren’t the sum total of one’s character. But multiple instances and not doing it when bosses are around? Yeah. Not Nice.

    8. Emi.*

      You did the right thing, and did not overreact–they’re committing sexual harassemt, and you filed a Title IX complaint. That’s exactly the right level of reaction!

      The fact that they’re well-liked and friendly does not change anything, because you’re reporting them for a set of pretty specific actions they did take, not for being assholes in general. (And if they were Satan, you would have to send an archangel to cast them into Hell.)

      Go you!

    9. J.B.*

      Nice guys are not always nice. They need to know what is ok and adjust at work. And honestly, if they got a talking to but stayed employed, it’s not like they had severe consequences. What if it had been allowed to continue not just here but at other workplaces?
      Good for you!

    10. catsaway*

      You did the right thing and it sounds like you handled it well. As you said, they never acted that way in front of someone with power over them (i.e. a supervisor) which indicates that they knew what they were doing wasn’t 100% OK, and they seemed to make most/all of the comments in front of people junior to them, which is no OK in and of itself.
      Also, just because there’s an HR investigation doesn’t mean they’ll lose their jobs, they certainly won’t go to jail (unless there’s a lot more going on) or be run out of town, they will simply face consequences (hopefully) for their actions.

    11. deesse877*

      I’m an academic in the humanities, and I just wanted to say two things:

      A. What everyone else said–you did the right thing, and
      B. I get the second thoughts, I totally do. Academia is weird in that it’s BOTH hierarchical AND informal, and so many ugly power plays hide in that informality. It’s normal to think “is it really that serious?” because often literally every serious thing is cloaked in some form of casual socialization. But trust me: those guys did wrong on purpose. There was nothing unstudied or accidental about it, and part of the pleasure was getting away with it.

      Now that I think of it, a third point:

      C. It’s good for those undergrads that you said something, totally aside from whether the complaint has a favorable outcome. They’re young, and until shit gets violent or threatening young people often conceptualize conflict as “drama,” thAt is, an inconsequential disagreement between equals. The students deserve to know (or have validated) the fact that they’re embedded in an institution with clear ethical rules, not just randomly hanging out with someone unpleasant. So good job there!

    12. Student*

      People who are nice to you, but rude to the waiter/undergrad lab assistant, are not nice people. You did the right thing.

      The odds are very high that they won’t get a disproportionate punishment. Usually, people barely get punished for this kind of thing at all (unfortunately).

      They do deserve a punishment in some form – they made work extremely unpleasant for several people for a long period of time. Just, don’t prejudge the punishment that hasn’t even been decided upon yet as “too much”. Consider the consequences of this kind of behavior. That kind of experience made a place YOU consider home into someplace these young women could not call home – and it’s possible they will never call it home now. It’s possible this experience will, if not now, then soon, drive them out of the field you love and/or the university you love. I know many women in my field who left it over similar issues. I left my graduate adviser over a similar issue, had to change advisors mid-PhD studies over it, and that added about two years to my PhD timeline. That’s the kind of thing that happens when nobody deals with it – even though such decisions and consequences are not readily apparent to somebody in your position.

      Yes, it is possible you will suffer an unjust punishment in your department for speaking up about this. It depends on whether the students you reported have a good relationship with a well-connected professor who is inclined to protect them. When I spoke up, I was punished. Other grad students were quick to minimize serious issues to please their advisors, or to keep their mouths shut because it “wasn’t their problem”. No one wants to rock the boat, delay research and papers. Try to get your story out to counter that. Try to encourage any young men who witnessed this to speak up – unfortunately, their accounts will be given more weight than the young women’s accounts. Encourage the young women to speak up together, and stand with them. Tell off the young men when you hear them doing this, if you can.

      And, ombudsman. It’s great that you took this to title XI level already, to keep your department from just sweeping it under the rug. But go to somebody outside the department – like an ombudsman or whomever handles title XI issues – if you see the issue continuing, or you see people getting punished for reporting the issue. Your department has a lot of internal motivation to keep the issue off people’s radars. External people like the ombudsman have a slightly higher motivation to figure out what the real problem is and address it before it gets out of control (especially with MSU in the news right now).

      1. Marvel*

        No worries there–I had a meeting with the assistant dean of students about an hour ago, and she’s looping in the university’s Title IX coordinator next week.

    13. L*

      You say that they have since stopped. But…they’ve just stopped doing it to you, and in your department.
      “I do think they knew it wasn’t okay, because they NEVER did in front of our supervisor” –> I think this is key here. Maybe they’re not “bad guys”, but they’re clearly not good guys if they were saying thing that ought reasonably to be known to cause offence or discomfort (definition of harassment in the workplace). It was targeted towards women and they consciously didn’t do it when their supervisor was around.
      This is not a man-hating rant, and I’m not saying these guys are future harvey weinsteins, but the education system has often failed to socialize men to understand this behaviour isn’t ok. They obviously need this experience/lesson to understand saying sexually inappropriate things to undergrad women, when they’re in a position of power, is completely unacceptable- and more importantly, they need to understand WHY its unacceptable.

      1. Marvel*

        Thank you, that’s a great point. It’s sometimes hard to keep perspective when you’re the one in the situation, watching these guys walk around being friendly and well-liked when you’ve seen what they’re like when no one “important” is watching. You start to wonder if maybe the problem is you. Maybe you misunderstood. Maybe you’re being oversensitive. Etc. I really appreciate this comments section and its ability to give point-blank reality checks when needed.

        I think I just need to remember that undergrad’s face when she said “oh my god, I’m so glad you said something” and proceeded to completely open up to me about how uncomfortable she was. That alone makes all this worth it.

        1. L*

          I think that happens a lot, when multiple people see the same thing but don’t necessarily think it’s as widespread as it really is. When I was doing my Masters degree, the previous year a student had lodged a complaint against a professor, two years later he was the graduate chair…because the complaint didn’t go any higher than the department chair. Feel good about what you did- because it was the right and the brave thing to do.

    15. FD*

      People can be nice in some contexts and not in others. I think sometimes, we get too hung up on deciding if a person is ‘good’ or ‘bad’, especially when we report a bad thing a person did.

      The goal of reporting harassment (or other things) isn’t to declare “This person is a bad person”. It’s to stop people from doing bad things.

      To quote the great Terry Pratchett:

      “It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

    16. Not So NewReader*

      There are many people out there who are Not Satan. People don’t have to be evil through and through in order to make poor choices. Matter of fact, there are a great many people out there who make a lot of good choices, then we find out that they also do X or Y or Z which are big no-nos and hugely offensive. And confusion sets in. How can a seemingly likable person do something so damn stupid. Reality is this happens and it happens often. No need to be confused, offensive is offensive no matter how charismatic the message bearer is.

  133. DorothyP*

    How do I address a colleague who frequently talks down to me?

    For context: I’ve been in my role for 7-8 months. My colleague has been here for over a year but has been junior to me since I joined the team. I sometime delegate work to her but she’s been a huge help with institutional knowledge. I’m the youngest person on my team (mid-20s) and she’s about 6-7 years older. Sometimes when discussing a process, or just as a one-off, she’ll say “you’re so cute” or call me “sweetie”. I have never treat our boss or my other colleague like this. It feels very specific to me and I find it really frustrating when I’m making a proposal for a new process (what they hired for) and she tells me I’m so “cute” for being concerned. I’ve tried ignoring it and I’ve tried saying, “I’m not trying to be cute, just trying to make x better”. This is especially irksome because a lot of my ideas have been met with positivity from our boss and grand boss. This week, they brought her from full time to part time and title wise we’re even. I’ve noticed a few instances where she’s now directed me on how to handle things that are a core function of my role. She’ll also sometimes ask me to “remind her to do [core function of her role] because otherwise she’ll definitely forget”. She makes these types of asks or acknowledges mistakes by laughing it off in a “you know how I am” kind of way. All of this I find really frustrating and it bugs me a lot that she got promoted to full time, mostly because I feel like I have to compete with her rather than work with her (she’s done things like say, “you always make x mistake” in front of colleagues when a) she’s never mentioned it to me before and b) she says that I make this mistake but can’t actually produce an example). I love my team otherwise but I am really get tired of feeling talked down to.

    1. Amber Rose*

      You haven’t been addressing it specifically enough. The things you’re saying address what you do, not what she does, and doesn’t tell her what to do about it.

      Your script is, “Please don’t call me cute/sweetie, it makes me uncomfortable.”
      Use it immediately in the moment when she calls you something weird.

      Secondary script: “Could you please not tell people I always make this mistake? It isn’t true and I don’t want them to get the wrong impression.”

      And then if it continues, “Hey, I asked you to stop doing that. What’s going on?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        As far as the reminders, just say, “I can’t promise you I will be able to do that. Why not make a post-it note to yourself?”
        When she says, “you know how I am” in reference to a mistake tell her that the most important thing is that she should know how she is and do double checks before passing work forward. Or you can say, “Well if you know you have this proclivity then you can do double check to insure that these mistakes do not keep coming up.”
        And she probably will say it again, so the next time she says it, “Jane, we already talked about this. If you know you have a tendency to have a problem with X then you need to do double checks. We talked about this very thing.”
        If she looks at you like you just drove over her puppy, say, “Jane, this is what the rest of us have to do, too. So it’s not reasonable to expect that you would escape doing double checks. Everyone one does double checks.”

    2. Thlayli*

      She’s trying to make herself seem superior by passing judgment on you. It makes it seem like she has the authority to pass judgement on you. Look up “amog alpha male of the group”. This is actually a “pickup technique” used by men where they give other guys little compliments or put-downs in front of women they want to impress, because it makes them appear like they are the alpha of the group. Shes doing the same thing.

      Call her out on it. Next time she calls you cute, say something like “please stop calling me cute, it’s pretty irritating.” Or go with “do you really think that’s cute? What do you honk cute means? You say it a lot but it never makes sense in the context” or something.
      Don’t worry about. Being rude. She’s being rude to you.

  134. Kay*

    I am considering two different really cool professional opportunities that have a lot to do with my field of work, though not my particular current day job. They are different but somewhat overlapping in terms of the skills used, and they both have the possibility of earning me money (always needed, I work in nonprofits) and giving me good name recognition.

    That said, my life is constantly overfull and I am trying hard to be responsible about saying yes and no to things.

    What questions do you ask yourself before adding on extra work like this? Do you have a good rubric for making decisions? I have spent the past week writing up a pros and cons list as well as questions that I need to ask and I’m still emotionally no closer to making a decision. I want to do them both, badly, but I am trying hard to be careful with my time and my sanity.

    1. MarissaM*

      It sounds like you’re on the right track and already being quite thoughtful but I would always imagine the best- and worst-case scenarios of business. And think about what other stuff you can cut back on or quit. Don’t accept something just cause you think it is Such a Good Opportunity if the amount of stress it’s going to give you will make you unable to do a good job.

      Take this all with a grain of salt as I am a recent college grad who gathered all these feelings committing to too many extracurriculars, which is much lower stakes than a real job.

  135. A-Street*

    I’m torn and need some outside advice on this issue.

    My friend, Jane, and I have been working on the same team for nearly four years. A year or so ago, I was promoted to the team supervisor and I now manage her. This in itself has been a struggle, but we’ve done very well keeping things professional at work.

    Yesterday, Jane brought up a tense situation outside of work in the context of our friendship that has bothered me all day. Jane supports the building and provides receptionist duties, meaning she speaks with and gets to know just about everyone. She has developed some “work friendships” with a few folks, including a man named Michael, and joins them outside on smoke breaks and chats when they pass through Reception.

    Recently, Michael has become increasingly inappropriate towards Jane. About six months ago, he made some sexual comments towards her and she’s been actively avoiding him ever since. Yesterday, Jane informs me that Michael caught her outside at the beginning of her smoke break and made a similar comment. These comments are outrageously inappropriate and humiliating for Jane.

    When I asked Jane what she wanted to do, she indicated that she planned to handle it herself. She simply had to gather the courage (or figure out how to approach it). I gave her some advice on how to approach it with Michael, but other than that, I’m not sure she’s going to do anything (at least, right now).

    I’m torn because I want her to manage the situation in the way that is most comfortable for her. She should not be subjected to the further embarrassment of recalling these events to strangers in our HR department against her will. However, I also want to bring the hammer of Thor down on creeper Michael by either going to HR myself or directly approaching his manager (with whom I have a good relationship).

    On a side note, Jane has not directly addressed Michael about the previous comments from six months ago. Instead, she chose to avoid contact with him, which I feel did not send enough of a signal to Michael to cut it out. Michael should be exercising good judgement and ignorance of his actions is no excuse. I’m just concerned that Jane’s stance (inaction, hoping he’ll get the hint) has done her some harm in this situation (especially since this is a business/corporate matter and not a legal/criminal one…yet).

    Do I let Jane handle this issue in the way she’s most comfortable? Or do I act as a rep of the company and report sexual harassment that I have heard is going on (and have not directly witnessed)? Any direction/advice is greatly appreciated.

    1. Karo*

      It doesn’t matter that it was in the context of your friendship, she reported to her manager that she was being harassed at work. You can’t not do anything about that! What your next steps are, I have no clue, but you have to do something.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      As a supervisor, you have a responsibility now to the company to help protect it against liability and protect its employees. I don’t think you really have a choice here, you have to report these incidents.

      I’m sorry that this may impact your relationship with Jane. I hope it all works out, but you really have to report it.

    3. soupmonger*

      Well, you asked her what she wanted to do and she told you she wanted to handle it herself. You say she brought this up ‘in the context of your friendship’, which I’m assuming means she talked to you about this outside of work, and not as someone informing her manager of a problematic situation? If that’s right, I’d let her handle it herself.

      You can follow up, though, and offer to help at that point if she hasn’t managed to either face him with it, or got him to stop. But you’d need to make it clear you’re offering to step in as her manager, not as her friend.

    4. Natalie*

      You have to report this. Since you are in a supervisory position, your company can be held liable if you don’t. I know it’s uncomfortable but you cannot wait.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah. This is where I land, too. He is probably doing this to other people also. I would go back to Jane and tell her after thinking about it, you realize that you must report it. Tell her you have no choice, you see people in the news who failed to report an incident and you see what has happened to them. There is no doubt in your mind that you must report it.
        You can also add, that because of your role you may not be able to keep all the work secrets you hear.

        Just as an aside, make sure you are not telling her about things that you should not be repeating, also. This will help her to see you role modeling correct behavior.

    5. Kathenus*

      As others have said, as a manager you must report this. One of the biggest legal liabilities of this type of behavior for organizations is when there is a known problem that is not addressed (look at the current stories on MSU/gymnastics foundation – granted an extreme example but the fact that management of these two organizations knew about abuse and didn’t address it are big factors, and the reason a bunch of people are losing their jobs right now).

      Aside from the legal side, it’s the right thing to do to protect Jane and others at your organization from Michael’s inappropriate behavior. It’s unlikely she’s the only one he’s doing this to.

      Please report this officially.

  136. beanie beans*

    Resume question:

    How do people feel about using a different job title on your resume than what your actual job title is? One of my coworkers does this and suggested I use a different one, but it feels like a lie.

    We have a fairly bureaucratic title, so she uses more general ones like “Project Manager – xyz” or “Program Manager” that are semi-accurate of our job duties. But I feel like if someone were to call my references it could be really confusing and feel like I misrepresented my job.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’ve been debating this myself actually. My title is Coordinator, but realistically I am a manager and my boss doesn’t really care what we call ourselves as long as we don’t break any laws. One senior employee famously used Peon for a while.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      I would list them both, with the more functional title in parentheses. (And I base this on what I’ve seen done IRL and what I’ve seen Alison suggest here.)

      Jennifer Thneed
      Llama Operations Manager 4 (Program Manager for Experimental Feeding)
      Alpaca-Llama, Inc.

      1. beanie beans*

        I like this, thanks! And thanks everyone for the feedback – I feel a lot less anxious about it!

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      I think this can be really common in some places. Like really large companies that are heavy into engineering have titles like “Engineer – IV” or the like. It’s not descriptive, so putting down something more like “Operations & Maintenance Engineer” or “Satellite Design Engineer” are usually used in resumes instead. It doesn’t come across as deceptive, because the real job title is meaningless in these cases. As long as you aren’t misrepresenting it shouldn’t be a problem.

    4. Not Today Satan*

      I know AAM recommends the parenthesis noted above, but I usually just go with a title that I think is more accurate to the work I do/did.

      1. FD*

        I think the reason she recommends it is that during the reference check, if they call and ask “What role was Not Today Satan employed in?” and the title HR tells them doesn’t match, it can raise eyebrows.

    5. periwinkle*

      Most of the people in my division have the same payroll title in the HR system because we’re all classified under the same job code. My job would go on the resume as “Teapot Analyst [payroll title: Teapot Development Specialist]” while my colleagues would use their day-to-day titles of Teapot Records Manager or Teapot Systems Designers or whatever. Those titles are on our internal org charts and job descriptions, but in the HR system we’re all TDSs.

      I’m not sure if our HR system even records our working titles, possibly because they change. I’m on my third title (without changing my actual role) and would be getting a fourth in a couple months except that I’m moving to a different department before then.

      At a previous job, I was officially classified as an administrative assistant as were several other people in my department. We all had different working titles to match our actual responsibilities as none of us were doing typical AA work, but HR would only confirm our employment as being under the AA title.

  137. selina kyle*

    When listing an emergency contact for work is it better to list someone in tow (who would be physically able to show up if I were in the hospital or something) or a family member (who lives another state away)?
    I’m in the situation of having a few close friends or boyfriend in my city who I could list as an emergency contact, but if I were in the hospital I would definitely want my parents to know – but they live about eight hours away. So I’m at a bit of a cross roads as to what to do. Any help is appreciated!

    1. Amber Rose*

      List someone nearby, and tell them you’ve listed them and make sure they have contact info for your parents and instructions to contact them if something happens.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would list someone nearby who would be able to physically show up, and make sure that person knows their next point of action is to call my parents to keep them in the loop.

      1. selina kyle*

        I think that’s what I’m going to do, I think that makes a lot of sense – someone local who can show up and drive me home from the hospital or whatever if need be, but also who can get ahold of my folks.

    3. Enough*

      You can have more than one. You can either request the hospital to call your parents in addition to the emergency contact or have the contact call your parents. To me the point of an emergency contact is two fold.
      1 ) When someone needs to notify those in your life that you will be out of commission for a while when you can’t contact them directly.
      2) You can not make decisions and some one must do so for you.

      1. selina kyle*

        Thanks – your two points really help clarify honestly, I think I hadn’t thought of the notifying people in my life aspect.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’ve listed my parents. Because of my religious beliefs, there are specific ways I’d prefer to have an emergency handled, if it came down to it, and my parents are better-versed in what those ways are than my friends. If I need someone who can be there in an hour or two rather than tomorrow or the day after, my parents can call one of my local friends.

      1. selina kyle*

        Oh that’s a good thought. I don’t have any specific ways I want emergencies handled so that’s not a factor, but I like the idea of putting my parents in touch with my boyfriend or someone – I’m not sure that’s what I’ll do personally but it does make a lot of sense.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yeah, if you don’t live near your parents and they’re still pretty involved in your life, it’s not a bad idea to make sure that they have some contacts with people close (in both distance and relationship) to you. My folks have one of my ex-roommates and a current good friend as local contacts for me. Just in case, you know?

          1. selina kyle*

            I hadn’t thought of it recently – in college, they had the number for my roommate but it’s been a few years and I just haven’t updated them on contacts. That’s a good idea.

  138. Paloma Pigeon*

    I have a LinkedIn question/rant: I manage the job postings on my company’s page, and I’ve had some candidates email me on LinkedIn and share their profile and say ‘call me, I’m very interested in this position’. But our job listing specifically asks for a cover letter indicating why you are interested in working with our population (we’re a nonprofit) and resume.

    Is this a thing now in some industries? I’m not a recruiter, I’m just posting the job listing. Some folks did have a legitimate question, like whether their type of degree would preclude them from being considered, but then followed up with a straight submission. Am I missing something? For the first weeks the ‘call me’ responses were the only ones we got. Is it a LinkedIn thing?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I don’t understand job hunting anymore. Applicants seem to be getting more and more disrespectful.

      But keep in mind that LinkedIn seems to promote a very special kind of arrogant entitledness in people. Probably because of “influencers” giving misguided advice.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve noticed when I applied to positions that were posted on LinkedIn, it sometimes will suggest that I “reach out to the poster”. I’m not sure if that’s an automatic thing on all postings or something special, but you might want to double check if it’s being included in your posts.

    3. Not the name I normally use*

      In our job postings the first and last lines say something to the effect of please read the entire job description and follow the application directions as stated. We will not consider applications otherwise.

      We also quit using the LinkedIn apply now button, which cuts down on those who just click and apply to everything! We get fewer applications but a much better pool of qualified candidates. Can you take off the apply now button, or are you using the LinkedIn application review process? If you need to keep the button on you could just compose a short email template that says something like: Thanks for your interest. Please read the posting and submit your application according to the directions.

      We also have a dedicated email if folks have questions about the position.

      Our positions only ask for a cover letter and resume, and we give a list of what we want addressed in the cover letter (as you did!). Our jobs require very close attention to detail so honestly, submitting the application as asked is the first test of that attention to detail . . .

      1. Paloma Pigeon*

        Exactly. If you are a pain about this, what else will you be a pain about? As Alison says, it’s simple to stand out. Just follow the instructions and write a great cover letter.

    4. Triple Anon*

      No, I don’t think it’s a thing. I think it comes from people being misguided or misunderstanding how the whole thing works. It’s not weird to ask a question, but if you want to be taken seriously as a candidate, you should follow the rules. I would ignore those people. They might be sending the same message to tons of employers knowing that if they play the numbers game, they’ll eventually get a call. It’s easier than reading application instructions and writing a new cover letter for each job.

    5. nep*

      I think people should follow instructions and be respectful, period. And if they don’t / they’re not, they should be weeded out or at the very least flagged; I would eliminate them because they are failing to follow instructions from the get-go. My 2 cents.
      Good point from Detective Amy Santiago about checking the ‘connect with poster’ feature.

  139. DevAssist*

    I just need to vent/ramble…

    I FINALLY received a job offer and am able to leave my very toxic workplace. However, what guarantee is there that the other place WILL be better? I’m not in a specialized profession- I’m just an office/administrative assistant. What is I get overwhelmed, or don’t find the work more fulfilling at my new place?

    I kind of what to do some certification courses and go through an aesthetics program to get licensed, but that all requires money and I have plenty of debt already. I’m just full or emotions right now. Work aside, life is busy and navigating major change really spikes my anxiety.

    1. selina kyle*

      I’m not sure what an aesthetics program is, but my local library has lots of certification classes available (Excel/Photoshop/etc) either online or through their website for free – it would be worth looking into something similar for your area.
      As to finding a new place – you don’t know one way or another for sure. Did things seem to work well in the interview? How much longer could you stand to be at your current workplace if you don’t take this job?

  140. Triple Anon*

    I’m working from home today, doing some freelance projects. It’s great. I’m listening to music and having a good time. But the dog doesn’t understand it. He keeps asking for more attention. I’m trying to keep him entertained while also focusing as much as I need to.

    I think things are looking up. I’m succeeding in increasing my income every week now that I’m feeling better. I got hit with a bunch of unexpected expenses – car repairs and a vet visit for a minor infection and rabies booster – but I had enough to cover everything and still make rent, pay the bills, and eat! I think that’s a first for the past year. I keep staying positive, avoiding any kind of negativity, and doing the best that I can with everything.

    I’m still lost with regard to full time employment. What do I want to do? Who do I want to work for? What’s the best way to get there? On the other hand, I really prefer being self employed. If I can get better at supporting myself that way, it will be the best by far.

    Off to file my first quarterly taxes! When I first started reading this blog, I was looking for resume advice so I could land my first good 9 – 5 job with benefits. Then I read to figure out that world and how I fit into it. I learned a lot and now I’m making my own way and doing my own thing. There’s nothing better.

    1. Reba*

      Oh my glob quarterly taxes! I used to hate those / always forget to do them.

      Glad to hear things are looking up for you, TA!

  141. anon for this*

    How do address a ‘complaint’ that makes no sense and has nothing to do with your work.

    My coworker complained that whenever she sees me eating in the lunchroom (no food at our desks, work in a commercial/non downtown core area with nowhere else to go for lunch) and at company events where food is provided that I always finish my food before her. I was told to stop because it distresses her. It’s not a buffet/food hoarding problem because this is my food and there is no second helpings.

    I have no clue what to say to this. Apparently I’m not the first one she has complained about and I don’t want another write up. She never says anything to people but only complains to our boss. She doesn’t like it if she is not the first to be done eating. That’s the complaint

    (I’m heading into a meeting so I may not be able to respond but I will read any responses I get. Thank you in advance

    1. Colette*

      Your co-worker is ridiculous. You’ve got two approaches – either save the last bite of food until she’s done eating, or push back against whoever is telling you to change.

      1. CM*

        Your BOSS is ridiculous. The boss should be shutting this down.
        If this happens often, I’d probably also save the last bite of food just to avoid getting into more ridiculousness, but this should not be your problem.

    2. Starley*

      When you say another write up, do you mean you’ve been written up for this once already? If your boss took this complaint seriously or even passed it on to you, you need to consider a job search if you haven’t already. Your coworker is a loon and the only appropriate response from your boss would have been to tell her to stop commenting on it and restrict future complaints to things that actually affect work. Her request is in no way reasonable or appropriate.

      1. Red Reader*

        If you actually got written up for this, and it was recent, I’d go talk to HR about it I think.

    4. Ainomiaka*

      I mean, I feel like this should be something your boss squashes. If they’re passing it on and expecting you to do something the only thing I can think of is get away from that boss, unfortunately.

    5. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      What, do you get to go to recess first if you finish your food early?

      This honestly makes no sense. Both your coworker and manager are batty. Especially since you got written up for it (WTF). I’d seriously consider polishing up my resume.

        1. Snark*

          You never read the comments, except here, and here, you never drink anything while reading the comments.

    10. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Run away. Run away fast.

      The fact that your boss didn’t laugh in her face and actually seems to think she has some kind of valid point indicates that your workplace is full of bees and you need to get the hell out of dodge.

    11. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      This is bizarre. And you got written up (or there is threat of writing up)? There’s no logic to it whatsoever. Do people get to take lunches at different times, how does she handle someone who started lunch at 11:30 and finishes at 12, and she didn’t start until 11:45? Is there some kind of perk, like extra break time or she gets to do some sort of task, if she finishes eating first and she wants to get to it before anyone else?

      I’d push back with your boss on this if you feel comfortable, and try to figure out more of the basis of your coworker’s preference. Approach it like a problem solving session.

    12. The Ginger Ginger*

      If we’re all reading that correctly and you’ve actually been written up for this nonsense – Get thee to HR! Especially if formal write-ups impact your merit increase eligibility. This is absolutely and 100% a completely irrelevant complaint to how you’re doing your job. Your manager is a loon. This co worker is a loon. If HR won’t help you, your office is full of bees and you may need to start job hunting – especially if groundless, POINTLESS complaints are going to be allowed to impact your actual performance reviews!

      And WHAT EVEN?! You’re not even eating with her specifically it sounds like? Maybe BARB could finish her food first if she kept her eyes on her own dang plate.

    13. NW Mossy*

      Oh good grief. If your co-worker brought this compliant to me, here’s what I would have said: “I understand that this is upsetting you, but it’s not reasonable to ask Anon to ensure that you finish your food first – it’s not a work issue. Knowing this, I encourage you to think about how you can change things for yourself to minimize the impact of how others here eat on your state of mind, because that’s more reasonably what needs to happen here.”

      I know disordered thoughts about food can be really debilitating, but this is one of those “you only control you” situations. Thumbs-down on your manager for encouraging the idea that this particular issue can/should be managed by controlling the behavior of others.

    14. Ramona Flowers*

      It’s a shame that this distresses her but that should not be anyone else’s problem! Wow! What if saying this distresses you? (I mean, I would be pretty upset.)

      Do you have HR?

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I’d go back to the boss and get him to spell out how he wants you to handle it.
      You could also go to coworkers who have been through this and ask what they do.
      You could eat in your car if you have one. (No, don’t)
      If your breaks are assigned you could ask for a later or earlier break.
      You could take a bunch of ring binders to break with you and stand them up in the semi-open position to block her view of your food.
      You could bring extra food that you will not eat and leave the open container sitting there until break is over.
      If your boss thinks complaints like this are viable, then maybe you could file a complaint that she is staring at you while you eat and it bothers you. Or she is looking at your food and it bothers you. (Uh, maybe don’t do this, but it’s fun to think about.)

      Your boss is spineless. I think in all seriousness, I would go back to the boss and say, “I am on break. It is MY break. I cannot have someone regulating the pace that I eat my food. I know she has done this to other people, not just me. What are we going to do to stop this behavior for once and for all. I do not want to get written up for how fast I eat my food. That has absolutely no bearing on how well I do my job.”

    16. Kuododi*

      In the name of all that’s Holy!!! This almost defies description!!!! The only suggestion I have is to get yourself and any relevant documentation to the Powers that Be and get all the help you can access to nip this nonsense in the bud!!! It’s bad enough your colleague had the nerve to make that request of you but to take that ridiculousness kicked up the food chain so you got reprimanded simply redefines stupid!!! (Gaaack!!!) Good luck…

    17. nonegiven*

      Reminds me of the letter where they had to line up at the bus stop, after leaving work, according to gender because of a coworker’s OCD.

    18. Observer*

      Do you really think that you will get a write up for this? Even if she complains to HR or your manager? If so, you are dealing with an utterly irrational workplace. Start thinking about how you can get out of these.

      Otherwise, just ignore her. She’s waaaay out of line. And, if you have a reasonable boss, they will understand that SHE is the problem, not you.

  142. Biscuit!*

    I’ve got a question regarding open floor plan etiquette.

    I work in a growing marketing firm with an open office floor plan. The floor is round with elevators in the middle, so there’s two open spaces, one on each side of the elevator. At our last growth, people had to be shuffled around to make room and the office was split: one side for digital (web, apps, photo) and the other for customer stuff (accounts, social media, design). As a group, those of us on the digital side all agreed we prefer to keep the lights off. And we all tend to work solo, so it’s pretty quiet with lots of headphone usage. Now we’re growing again and some from the other side have moved over. Besides being chatty and much louder, they are constantly complaining about the lack of lights. Which is resulting in arguing with the more outspoken against lights. It’s a cluster. Any recommendations on a peaceful resolution? Previously, people who wanted more light just used a desk lamp. (For the record, the three people most against lights are the only people in the office using desktop computers, while everyone else has laptops. So they’re really the only ones that can’t just pick up and move elsewhere.)

    1. Observer*

      Just because someone is using a laptop doesn’t mean they can just pick up and move, for a lot of reasons.

      Is there any way to give people better light in their cubicles? Expecting people to work with inadequate light is unreasonable. Yes, I get that too much light is a problem for some people but that doesn’t change the fact that the people who “want” more light actually NEED it. If that’s not possible, is there any way for the people who need less light to get some sort of shade or something on their cubicles so there is not so much light or glare.

      Also, what kind of lighting do you have? If you have florescent lighting, it might help to switch to LED.

  143. SometimesALurker*

    Does anyone who has experience working through a recruiter want to weigh in on whether and how to make a positive impression on a recruiter before you start applying to jobs through them? In my field (at least in my region), companies don’t use recruiters often, but when they do, it’s for higher-level positions. I’m not job-hunting any time soon, but by the time I am, I might be looking at the positions that they use recruiters for. When I browse job boards, roughly 10% or 20% of the jobs that look like they’d be plausible “one or a short few steps up” jobs for me in the future have you send your application to a recruiter. The thing is, in my region, they’re all the same recruiting firm, and I know that that firm itself is very small. The recruiters are often at industry conventions as a sponsor, and it’s a small enough world that I know the president of the firm by sight, although she doesn’t know me.

    Is there any way to strike up a conversation with one of these recruiters at a convention and try to sort of get on their radar, so they’d know my name the first time I applied to a position they were handling, without being tacky? They probably get this all the time, and it probably runs the gamut from horribly tacky and self-promotional to reasonable and decent, but I want to be sure I’m one of the reasonable and decent ones. Does getting on their radar in a generic sense even work or help, or should I just wait until the first time I apply to a job they’re managing the search for, and hope that even if I’m not the top candidate for that one, I make a positive impression then?

    thanks in advance!

  144. Cheesecake 2.0*

    I have a temp employee, May, who has been with me 4 months or so, assisting on a very specific project. We recently hired 2 more temps, and she’s been getting them up to speed on the project. However, yesterday May found out they both make $3 an hour more than her and is very sad. The temp agency we work through actually sets the wage, and the 2 newest temps both have 5+ years experience in the field and Master’s degrees, whereas May is a recent bachelor’s graduate with very little real work experience when we hired her. Because we asked her to take the lead on getting the newbies up to speed on the project though (NOT training, just explaining), she thinks she should get more money. She wants to call the temp agency and try to negotiate but I explained it doesn’t work like that. I don’t have a real question about this, I just feel bad that she feels undervalued but also want to try to get her to understand this is where the whole idea of “working your way up” comes in.

    1. Red Reader*

      She can certainly try to negotiate with the temp agency. It won’t get her very far, most likely, but if she wants to try, why would you discourage her?

      1. Cheesecake 2.0*

        Well it’s an internal temp agency (I work at a ginormous university) and all the job descriptions are written by HR and the unions and negotiation just doesn’t happen for an entry-level role. It’s not that she can’t ask, but I am concerned that the temp people would not be kindly towards her for asking. They have a lot of power for recommending people to permanent positions and tend to play favorites (They sent me the same woman’s resume 4 times even after I said she wasn’t what I was looking for with my open positions) Realistically, the only way for her to make more money in a temp role is to quit, wait the mandated waiting period (1 month per month you worked already), and reapply to temp services and only accept something with a higher wage if it’s offered.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you want May to get more money, call the temp agency and ask them what your new bill rate would be if they bumped her pay to match the others.

  145. DoctorateStrange*

    So, last week, I talked about the co-worker who said there wouldn’t have been complaints of sexual harassment by the security guard if he was handsome*. I took the advice of just not doing anything and moving on. I want to thank everyone for helping me think this rationally.

    The co-worker is unaware that she said that comment to some of his victims and is unaware that a huge amount of the young female employees, if not all, were harassed by him.

    Regardless of this comment, this co-worker is honestly hurting herself professionally and others are putting some distance to her anyway.

    She was upset that one of our newer hires got a position that she wanted to keep doing. Keep in mind, that this new hire is more qualified than her, as even before she got an official position at our workplace, she volunteered with us for years, she is making plans to go to school to get certified in the industry we are in, and that she plans on making a career from this. Co-worker, on the other hand, was only covering the position because of a foot injury kept her from doing her main duties (which she complains a lot about anyway) and that her degree is in an entirely different area than from the industry of our workplace, so of course she can’t move up that easily.

    The co-worker has been rather disparaging of the New Hire behind her back, which is turning some people off because NH is a quiet, sweet person. I think most people are keeping their distance. It’s honestly a shame that co-worker is doing this because I used to enjoy her company so much. We have two toxic people in that department she works closely with and I can see that she’s acting the way she is because their traits are being rubbed off on her. Her position has to have her interact with them the most.

    All I can do is just stand back (especially as I’ve been moved to a new department two months ago) and just let her be. Hopefully, she will be better about this, and if she doesn’t, well, I’m not her supervisor.

    *The handsome comment was especially inaccurate because a lot of the young women thought he was attractive, including me, but that all got ruined as soon as he started opening his mouth and started making us all uncomfortable. To quote Mindy Lahiri, “My body is very attracted to your body, but when you speak my brain gets angry.”

    1. Starley*

      Is your crappy coworker disparaging the new hire because of the complaints that were made? Retaliation protection isn’t limited to behavior by the accused harasser or management. His buddies aren’t allowed to do it either. I’d be tempted to report that to HR or her manager to protect the company from liability for this.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        No, crappy coworker isn’t aware of even who was making complaints about the harasser, she just had terrible conclusions about the whole thing and made a stupid comment in response.

        She is resentful of New Hire because the latter is getting a position she was enjoying having (despite being aware that it was temporary and that she would be placed back into her former position once she healed.) I will check with my other coworkers and make sure she is not escalating anything past venting. She has so much as one toe out of line and I’m going to talk to a supervisor.

        1. Starley*

          That sucks, sounds like she’s just getting dragged down into toxicity like you said. I’ve been there myself, it’s an easy trap to fall into. Poor new hire. :( Maybe she can try to step out of her comfort zone and more proactively get to know people and build a reputation for being friendly and helpful?

  146. mirinotginger*

    Question about success at structured interviews:

    I work for a company that does very formulaic structured interviews. I had two interviews yesterday for two very different positions. One of them I thought went really well, I had good answers for the questions they asked, and even though on paper I feel like I’m less qualified, I feel confident that I’m in the running. The other one, I didn’t have nearly as good of answers, and even though I’m actually much more qualified for that job, I felt like I didn’t give the interviewers that impression. I certainly wouldn’t select me for that position based on that interview. I’m just wondering if anyone has good tips for how to be successful at a structured interview with proscribed questions when it seems like you got a bad batch? How can I still convey how great I might at that job? Thanks!

    1. Frustrated Optimist*

      I don’t know that you can be more successful, sadly. These scripted interview questions allow for little, if any, humanness in the interview session. I understand that they are meant to ensure a fair hiring process, but they make the experience feel sterile, canned, and anything but holistic.

      I have had panel interviews like this where it may have gone OK (or even well) up to a certain point. Then, they lob that scripted question, and your answer doesn’t measure up. Sometimes right in that moment, you know you aren’t getting the job.

      You can try reiterating both your interest and why you think you’d be great in that role in your thank you/follow up note, but it’s tough at that point.

  147. Incantanto*

    So, I’ve had an 11% pay rise. Yay!
    However:
    This is the result of a promotion in August they didn’t increase my pay for because “we do pay adjustments in January”

    Jan is also the cost of living raise and inflation is at 3%. So actual promotion raise is 8% and 6 months into the role. I was hoping for min ten outside of col.

    I haven’t been officially told “here’s your raise.” My paycheck was just higher. So no chance to negotiate.

    Is it worth talking to my manager about it? I worry if I accept this one they’ll go with the whole “we gave you a raise last year” and theres no more promotions for at least two years.

    Unfortunately, my direct manager and grandmanager has no salary control. It was run by the CEO and he died around new year and I’m not even sure who to talk to. Help.

  148. Jurassic Butterfly*

    My company opened a profit-sharing account for me when I was eligible to start a 401k, which I didn’t do (couldn’t afford at the time due to this job entailing pay cut). It now has $4700 in it and I will be retiring this year. I am 100% vested in it, and it is in a T Rowe Price Retirement 2020 Fund. Two questions: 1- Is there any way my company can take this away from me? 2- If I want to keep it in that fund, do I need to do anything (like open up a personal account with them and transfer the funds to that). Thanks for the info in advance!

    1. Enough*

      If you are fully vested it is yours no matter what. As far as moving the fund it depends on the rules of your 401(k) and personal preference. I personally would prefer to transfer the money to my own account as it makes it simpler to make any future changes.

      1. Jurassic Butterfly*

        Thanks for answering! I think I would I feel better getting it out of the account with the company name on it even if it’s not necessary to do so.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I’m in the industry, and one thing to watch out for is what’s called “automatic rollover,” which can apply to balances less than $5,000. Depending upon the provisions of your company’s plan, they may be able to transfer your account out of their plan into a standalone IRA for you. They need to send you a 30-day notice ahead of time if they intend to do this, to give you an opportunity to respond with different instructions if you don’t want that to happen. Typically, your other options would be to choose a rollover (where you decide to move it to an IRA of your choice or another employer’s plan) or to take the money in cash, less any required tax withholding.

      You can check to see if your employer’s plan has this provision by reviewing your Summary Plan Description (SPD) – it’ll be in the “Distributions” section. Your employer is required to give you a copy of this on request, if you don’t happen to have one already.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have had a positive experience with 2 T Rowe Price accounts. It went very well.

      If they are telling you that you are 100% invested then they are telling you the money is yours.
      If you have an IRA it is a matter of filling out a form or two and that account will roll to your IRA. It’s done electronically for purposes of clarity and ease.
      Both times I did it, the transfer itself took 3 days. It disappeared out of the company account, went into limbo, and on the third day it showed up in my IRA. Yeah, I had to do the math on how much interest I lost on those three days, just to torture myself. Anyway, rest assured it does arrive.

      OTH,You probably can ask for it in cash (check) but you should be aware of the tax consequences. If you want to just roll it over, doing it electronically means you do not get a check and makes it super clear to the IRS how you handled the money.

      As an aside, one of the many reasons I opened an IRA when they first came into popularity was to have a place to roll these company accounts forward to.

    4. Artemesia*

      I would arrange to role it over to your own personal account with your own broker or money manager. You don’t want it sitting at the old company. Just be sure it gets rolled over and not collected by you.

  149. catsaway*

    I have a verbal offer for a post doc position (STEM) and should be getting the written offer next week.
    Has anyone negotiated or asked for money for moving expenses? I would be moving a reasonable distance away and even one of those moving pods would cost about $2200, not to mention the costs of hotels etc while getting to my new city and getting an apartment. I’d like to ask for some money to cover the pod rental at least. I’ve gotten some advice to ask for moving expenses but I haven’t met anyone who’s actually done it. It feels weird to me because running a lab is kind of like running a small business I think in that budgets are smaller and you see where all the money is going, there isn’t a lot of fat and I feel like I should be overly conservative about spending taxpayer money, and thus feel guilty about asking.

    1. Reba*

      Congrats!

      See what the written offer says, and then (if not mentioned in writing) ask, “Are there any funds for relocation assistance?”
      They will say No, or they will say Yes, here’s how to request them. The end.

      It’s not weird! I got taxpayer relocation $$$ for current job. It was only 300 bucks, but hey!

    2. Meg*

      I agree with Reba! Please ask, it certainly won’t hurt. If your position is at a university, reimbursing relocation expenses is very, very common, and while the benefit could be limited to tenure-track faculty, no one should be surprised that you’re asking. (I work in faculty administration, if you can’t tell!)

    3. Overeducated*

      You can ask! It may depend a bit on the source of funds (e.g. I’ve heard a PI say “this is funded out of my lab start-up and I don’t have enough in the budget to negotiate up,”), but I don’t think it would hurt you to bring it up.

      2. JaneB*

        Yeah, at my Uni relocation comes out of a central pot separate from the grant that funds your salary (postdocs get less than faculty, & it varies depending on how long their contract is, but it’s very very normal to ask)

    4. DrWombat*

      I just interviewed for a postdoc position in STEM and I did ask for relocation expenses. I did it casually at the end of the final interview, after timing of formal offer letter had been discussed, when my potential boss asked if there was anything else I had questions about. I asked if there might be any coverage of moving expenses, but I made sure my tone was that it wasn’t a big deal if it wasn’t. I got told that she’d have to ask HR, as it kind of depended. So I guess it can’t hurt to ask? I know someone who got a nice relocation package going from postdoc-> professor but you are right, it’s not super common to hear discussed re postdocs. Best of luck!

    5. Artemesia*

      There are numerous post docs at this institution every year. You can count on the fact that you are not the first person to want moving expenses and they almost certainly have a firm policy about that. The policy is probably ‘Moving expenses are not provided for post docs’ but maybe they over $500 or $1000 or whatever. But it is not a unique type of question and whoever is offering the position sold be able to pout you in touch with the rules and regs related to the position.

  150. Random Fed*

    I feel annoyed by an E-mail I got from a recruiter this week who said they “saw my resume online and thought of a job that I should apply for” with an attached job description. I’m not entirely sure they actually read my resume because the job calls for someone with 20+ years IT experience. I graduated from college in 2005 so I’m rather short on the number of years they want. Heck, I’m not sure why they bothered to contact me if just one look at my resume should have immediately told them that I was not qualified.

    At this point I’ll just decline saying I don’t have the experience they’re looking for.

    1. NaoNao*

      Ugh, don’t even bother to write back. I did that for a sales/sales manager job and they had the nerve to write back offering me (so gracious!) an in person interview…for a post I didn’t want and said explicitly. Just delete and never look back.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. I am retired and get offers every week for things that I might be good for and things that are ridiculous or entry level or whatever. I am not insulted by the high level jobs that perhaps someone retired in my field might actually be good at or considered for — but most communications make it clear that they are just casting a net without regard to the qualification of the fish they are catching.

    2. Ainomiaka*

      I get these all the time and hate it so much. I don’t know how to stop it either, but empathy.

    3. ArtK*

      Don’t bother replying. It’s likely recruiter-spam based on some keyword match. I had one recently who sent me a “Director of Engineering” position, which is actually my title. The problem? In this case “Engineering” meant facilities management, like elevators, HVAC, etc. in a hotel. My “Engineering” is software. My secondary title is “Chief Software Architect,” which should have given the mismatch away.

      I sent a rather snarky reply, just because it was so stupid. No response, of course, but that recruiter and her firm are off my list now. I’d never use them to hire people and I certainly wouldn’t use them to find a job.

      1. Random Fed*

        Hmmm, it does smack of keyword matching so now I don’t feel bad about the idea of if I don’t respond.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I get a bunch of this because I work for a company that is known for X, and I work in the 1% of the company that does Y. I get solicitations for X PM jobs because my title is also PM, but I just ignore them. My favorite is when the recruiter adds the line to refer them to someone else who may be interested. Will I get a percent of your fee, too?

    5. Kuododi*

      Oh… don’t even sweat that stuff!!! My background, credentials and training is as a Master’s degree level licensed mental health counselor. I routinely get spam email from recruiters for jobs across the country looking for physical therapists, registered nurses, radiology technician. It is painfully obvious that the post is just spam nonsense. .None of that is worth my emotional energy!!!

      1. Artemesia*

        I spoke at a conference in Canada for pharmacy professionals about 20 years ago. Although I have no pharmacy credentials, they were also doing workshops for pharmacy educators and I ran one of those. I have for the last 20 years been getting sales materials for drugs and drug accoutrement, for medical supplies of all types, and for jobs in pretty much all of the healing arts except physician.

  151. R. Papen*

    Any recommendations for content or marketing conferences?

    I’m a content manager working for a 600-employee retailer. This retailer practices consultative selling and works on educating—not selling to—customers. I was recently brought on to rewrite all their existing in-store content, create completely new content for a completely new website and develop an SEO strategy for them.

    Company culture shuns any type of marketing speak or featuring individual products we carry in anything other than an educational way. I’m looking for a conference that will give me some new ideas that might fit within this particular context. I initially thought that the Intelligent Content Conference might be a good fit, but the timing doesn’t work.

    Any suggestions?

  152. Inquiring*

    Has anyone had experience with General Assembly? Lookin into some front end development courses. Please let me know your thoughts/reviews.

    1. FD*

      I haven’t, but I can say that the Udemy course, “The Web Developer Bootcamp” by Colt Steele is excellent. Link to follow.

  153. sfscientist*

    This is a relationship and work question. My husband needs to get a job (tech/mobile development/etc.) and just doesn’t seem to be looking, and I’m running out of patience. He is in a highly desirable field in an area with lots of jobs. I think part of the problem stems from how easily he used to get jobs, which has been getting harder as he gets older (tech is a youth industry), and that he feels like he should be more advanced in his career at this point. We’ve had all sorts of conversations about this, I bought him a copy of Alison’s book, I’ve encouraged networking, etc. Given the various questions we’ve seen in this blog over the years I’m not going to micro-manage his search, or (cringe) apply for him. Any recommendation on how to motivate someone who has given up on the job search? Recommendations on resources I should look at to deal with my frustration or how to frame things positively? Do I exile him to the shed? I really want to change where I work and feel like I can’t do that until he gets a job and it is really increasing how frustrated I am with my own career.

    1. Reba*

      sfscientist, that sounds hard!

      To me it sounds like you could use a big picture conversation.

      What do you want your life together to look like in 5 years? 10? at retirement?

      What *will* it look like if your spouse never works regularly again?

      Can he identify and own the things that are making it hard for him to do this? Can he empathize with you wanting to move on/up and support you in that?

      [Obligatory mention of mental health screening]

      1. sfscientist*

        I like your framing about future planning and the questions you wrote, they break it down into chunks. I’m trying to think how to convey this in a non-confrontational way (you are dooming us to living in a shack and eating cat food when we are old!).

    2. Colette*

      Job hunting is hard, and discouraging, but that doesn’t mean you can opt out of it (unless you have some other plan to pay your living expenses).

      I don’t think “getting a job” is really the conversation you need to have, actually – I think it’s a bigger question. What do you (both) want out of the next few years? How are your finances, and what changes are you willing to make to them to pay for what you want? I.e. you want a new job – will your pay go up or down? How will you cut expenses if necessary? If he’s not working, what is he doing to pay his own way? If he’s not going to find a job in tech, what does he plan to do next?

      1. sfscientist*

        This is why I like the commentariat here so much! I definitely think I was fishing for “getting a job” rather than “serious conversation about life”. I like your questions also. I’m going to think about my answers.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      If you gave him permission to not look for a job for two weeks, would he take that as a welcome break after which he could vigorously reapply himself to his job hunt, or would he view the end of the two weeks with dread? If the former, he could just be burnt out on the job hunt and need a break from it. If the latter, you might consider mental health resources.

      Also, I’m sure he can feel your frustration. Maybe making the change yourself will motivate or inspire him. Or at least reduce the weight enough for him to get back out there.

      1. sfscientist*

        Thanks for your thoughts, its helpful to see this without the history. I’m trying to avoid the “permission” thing. I feel like in lots of letters on this blog there’s a thread of people’s parent, spouse, etc. trying to be their manager in their job search. And none of that seems to work. I guess I’m viewing it more in the sense of instead of setting him work tasks “you must apply for 4 jobs a week”, I’m trying to be the supervisor who encourages people to be “self-starters”. The reward of finding interesting engaging work (and a paycheck) should be the reward. Its been a year. He doesn’t seem burnt out, just fine with the way things are because nothing awful has really happened to him because I’ve taken up all the slack (actually just like at my job where we have the most awful manager and we’ve all just started doing his job for him since it is easier than trying to get him to do it). He doesn’t seem like he is depressed or anything, at least not in the ways I’ve read about or seen in other friends. Maybe a decade and a half later I’m finding out that the same things just don’t motivate us?

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          I apologize if I sound harsh in saying this. But, I sense some resentment towards him in what you’re saying here. That can kill relationships. Be careful that you don’t project your issues with your manager onto your husband.

          Also, I’ve been through something close to what you’re going through now. My spouse was sidelined for over a year with a medical issue, and it took them several months after recovering to find a job. I know the frustration of seeing someone you love stalled out. Happy ending though, they landed a very good job 4 months ago.

          1. sfscientist*

            Actually, I think you are correct, reading your comment I do have a lot of resentment about it because I feel like his unemployment situation is trapping me in a position I don’t like. I think I’ll spend some time poking around the internet for other jobs for myself. I can outlast the bad manager at my current job (because I think he will retire in 2 years) but that seems like a lousy plan.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              I can totally understand how suffering through a terrible manager when your husband seems content with unemployment could cause resentment.

              Relationships are a two-way street. You’ve been supporting your husband for awhile. But now you need support to find a job that doesn’t have a terrible manager. Your husband needs to step up and support you, or you need to find that support elsewhere in your network of friends and family. It’s OK to be up front with your husband about your needs.

              If your husband can’t step up, you need to evaluate whether and for how long you’re OK with that.

        2. Reba*

          The conversation doesn’t have to be like, “you have to apply for jobs or else I will make you sit in the corner” but rather “this is how your current behavior is affecting me/us. Do you want to change that and will you?”

          He genuinely may not realize how much slack you have taken up. But also (of course not knowing what your life is actually like) the fact that he is just fine with cruising along while you work hard doesn’t look good from here.

          1. Artemesia*

            I have been through a long period of unemployment with my husband made worse by the fact that he was unemployed because he moved to a new city with me for my job. I know how hard it is. But it sounds like a situation that will destroy your marriage if he can’t get his head out of where it is. I don’t think you can supervise his search and still have a marriage. He either steps up or he doesn’t. I would have a CTJM in which you are very clear that you feel you have had to bear all the burdens of the household and that you need him to find a job. (not try to find a job, or start his search, or apply to 4 places a week — but find a job).

            I would start your own focused job search and get yourself into a better situation if possible. Don’t put your own life on hold while you wait for him and he is apparently fine with you waiting on and waiting for him. And I would be giving serious thought to leaving him; not necessarily doing so, but getting ducks in a row, finances well understood and procedures understood so that this is an option. Perhaps meet with a lawyer to figure out where you stand. How long will you be satisfied with living with someone not making an effort to be a partner?

    4. Maya Elena*

      The following assumes your hsuband isn’t a complete deadbeat, and is a previously successful, standup guy for whom lack of success is unfamiliar and paralyzing, metaphorically.

      I’d start with making sure you’re not signaling constant critique and disappointment in him, and that you’re expressing gratitude when he adds value in other ways even without working (eg fixing things, chores, childcare).

      Also, it may also help if he uses the time to get organized, healthier, more attractive if he can: drop video games and other addictive behaviors, develop routines, hygiene, strength, posture, a hobby. This might increase his confidence in himself, his self-presentation in interviews, and his actual attracriveness to you, especially if you can join him in this general self imprvement quest.

      Good luck!

      1. Maya Elena*

        PS I didn’t mean to be flippant at all in the above. The above stuff I listed aren’t all achievable overnight or even all together. But I do think progress toward general self improvement, including physical, can help both the job search and the relationship.

        1. sfscientist*

          I don’t think your comments were too flippant. I am, indeed, worried that I inadvertently married a complete deadbeat and am now someone who writes to advice columns with “He’s a great guy, but…”. Like I’m seriously thinking about whether or not he is doing the other things you list. I’m certainly not an incredible go-getter but I was furloughed for 2 weeks a couple years ago and spent the time running in morning and swimming, working on hobbies, etc. and I completely see what you are saying. Motivating someone towards general self-improvement seems like even more of an uphill lift than motivating someone to apply for jobs.

          1. Helpful*

            This is tough. Is he a guy who is like “no big deal” and just content to go with the flow? That can be frustrating when the “flow” is unemployment. I’m trying to think of a way to exert some pressure on him that isn’t you nagging him/being his mommy. Maybe marriage counseling. :/ I definitely agree with the big-picture life-discussion talked about above.

          2. Student*

            This is permission form an internet stranger to think about whether divorce is the best solution. Look into it, make sure you understand the full legal and financial impacts. Think about what you want in a mate, and whether you are getting that, and whether you could get that better and with less headaches elsewhere, and whether you’d be better off on your own than you are right now.

            It’s a big and scary and culturally-laden thing, but sometimes it’s the right thing. You probably will never have 100% certainty on it, and you may still care deeply about him even if your relationship isn’t working. But you don’t have 100% certainty on your current situation, either. And you don’t have to be 100% blameless to decide it’s time to move on.

          3. Artemesia*

            A wife can’t ‘motivate’ her husband to do these things. And trying to manage him will undermine the relationship. You become Mommy and that is the death of love. Contempt is also the death of love. He has to do it himself. You can make it clear that it is something you expect as a baseline of your continued relationship, but he has to do it without yuo micromanaging. Sorry — it is really an awful situation to be in. I have seen it in a close relative and FWIW, Mr. Drifty Lazybones did in fact go out and get a great job when she lost hers and it was important. But their financial well being was massively set back as they burned through all their savings while he drifted. For them it was a short term disaster; he did pull up his socks. It isn’t easy for anyone.

    5. Student*

      You need to talk to him. Not about applying for jobs – about how this is impacting you and your relationship with him. Probably about the financial impact, and whether you need to make lifestyle changes, and about some transparency around his job search. About whether this means you need to change your job to mitigate impacts. About whether he needs to take on new household roles because he’s out of work, to continue contributing to the relationship and household.

      You also need to think bigger picture, for yourself, than his job-search problem. What if it takes a long time for him to get a job (regardless of reason)? How does that impact you and your relationship with him? Can your relationship adapt to that new reality of him being unemployed, and then adapt again if he gets a job? Or is his employment central to your concept of your relationship to him?

      There aren’t wrong answers – just answers that work for you and your family.

      1. Future Analyst*

        +1000 on the last line. Yes. sfscientist, if the way things are currently isn’t working for you, then it’s okay/permissible/necessary to find something that will.

    6. sfscientist*

      Thanks all for your thought provoking replies. I see this isn’t an actual work question (as I was kind of hoping) and I’ll look at it from a relationship angle instead.

    7. Gertrude*

      I wanted to jump in really quick. My dad was laid off and it took 2 years before he found another job. He had tons of skills but had come from a really high-stress environment. It drove my mom crazy because she is a play hard / work hard person and she couldn’t imagine his more casual attitude towards this issue. Eventually, my mom realized she can only control herself. So, she went back to school, got an additional degree, and changed careers. She now had an outlet for all of her pent-up anxiety and let my dad do his thing. He ended up studying for a new certification exam and finding a job doing something he really enjoys. I know they had several big-picture conversations, but my dad is as stubborn as I am and needed to motivate himself. They had discussions around what my dad could do day-to-day, their financial goals and changes in expectations. While my mom was in school he did the grocery shopping / cooking, and supported her.

      I know this can be really frustrating, but it sounds like most of your angst is around wanting to be able to change your job. I think you can still do that! Maybe putting your energy towards a job search will help you feel more in control.

      1. sfscientist*

        Thanks for this viewpoint. I do think I’ll channel at least some of my frustration into finding a new job, because that certainly isn’t helping anything to actively dread going to work. Unfortunately, also looks like I need to have some big relationship conversations. I completely understand now how inertia keeps some of us in jobs and relationships.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I have a story, not sure if it helps. My husband and I took turns doing this to each other.
          I went first. My setting was such that he said, “Our big problem financially is that you have to find a full time year round job instead of doing the patchwork thing you have been doing.”
          My upset with that remark came because I felt he did not give me any credit for finding work no matter what. HOWEVER, I decided to suck down that upset and see the merit to his point.
          I landed a job with the best pay I had ever had, weekdays and regular business hours. The job was HORRIBLE, but I saw a stepping stone for us. I said, “Okay, your turn, get away from your toxic boss, I will hold the fort. But I can only do this for a short while, then it’s my turn again.” (I made enough to cover all our bills.)

          Three years. He waited three years to make a move. Meanwhile I had job where any day I could go out in an ambulance. Angry with him does not fully describe. Like you say, with his abilities it should have been about six months to find a better job. He could have found any old job with in a few weeks.

          After about a year and a half of waiting for him to move (key part, you do have to look at job ads in order to change jobs….sigh) I got really restless. I said, “If you are not going to change jobs, let’s look into buying a house, rather than just sit here and stagnating.” So we did.
          It was about a year after buying the house that he found another job. And that jump only happened on the heals of yet another crisis at his current job.
          I stayed at that job for 11 years for Reasons that should not have been reasons.

          Stuff that I gathered out of all this:
          It’s really important to see people as they are NOT as we wish them to be. I dialed back a lot of my life plans when I finally realized that we were not That Couple who would accomplish these things.

          I married a super intelligent person, way more intelligence and knowledge than I will ever have. Did I mention that Einstein’s wife had to remind him to shower? Thus I learned my role in this relationship. He was the brains, I was the practical one. I reframed life goals in terms of what we COULD actually do as a couple.

          I also figured out that we had two different world views. I believe that we can impact our lives and we can put ourselves on a better path. He believed that life happens to us and there is nothing we can do. So we had a core difference in our beliefs. This meant that my husband was reactive, not proactive. Sometimes intelligent people think so much that they put themselves into an invisible straight jacket. I went through this with my father, so I recognized it with my husband.

          I decided to stay with him in spite of this rude awaking. How did I miss this earlier. sigh. I stayed because he was a good man. Most of what I came up with to do he would agree it was a good idea, sometimes he would add his own thoughts and make an even better idea. He provided me with a calm and stable marriage and home life, something I place a very high value on. We dovetailed well on quite a few things, where he had strength/knowledge I did not and visa versa.

          There are no perfect relationships out there. None. All relationships are a series of trade offs.
          Tell him that you feel the two of you have stagnated and you are interested in talking about any and every idea to move forward with any part of your lives. To yourself, figure out what assets you have as a couple that you would not have if each of you were on your own. Leverage those assets. My husband was very clever with household repairs. When the tech said, “It’s time for a new washer.” My husband found a tiny but important wire that had come unsoldered. He soldered it. The machine we were told to throw out lasted another 15 years. We leveraged his ability to make things last to help with our finances. I found things I could do to help us move forward also.

          Where I failed in all this is that once he got a new job, I failed to continue looking for something for myself. By then I got to tired and had too much brain drain. I should have given myself a kick in the butt.
          If you decide that he is worth staying with, keep stepping through your own life plans as much as you can. Life will keep throwing curve balls, so be prepared for that by strengthening your resolve now to keep working on your own career plans no matter what else is going on. You can always tweak/change your plans but keep active with whatever your current plan is.

          Current time. I have been here on my own for a number of years. Our finances were half-baked and half-assed. I learned something. Some attempt will give some level of benefit. It is not an all or nothing thing. I paid off all his medical bills from his final illness. We had no college debt but we both had bachelors. I refi’ed and I have five more years to pay on this house. A half baked, half executed plan will give some level of benefit, people don’t mention this but it’s true. And it’s good to factor that in with everything else, if you are thinking about packing your bags over this one. Factor in what is right here.

  154. Collie*

    Our highly-disliked manager is leaving. I won’t get into details, but essentially her entire staff hated her for various reasons. Most of the time, I could see both sides of a given disagreement, but overall felt that her skills and personality were not well-suited for managing people. Because I was new (and she was new to the location within a couple weeks after I started), I was able to play a pretty good hand (everyone else was upset at how she was changing things compared to how the old manager did stuff and I had nothing to compare it to and was coming from a management situation that was worse, anyway, so it worked out well for me) and I got on her good side.

    She has a reputation in the area for being unreasonable and “crazy.” (For example, she’s had shouting matches with employees, followed them around in public areas shouting at them when the other person was just trying to cool down before continuing the conversation, and has evidently told one or two other staff members that she plans on telling the new manager — who hasn’t yet been selected — how terrible we all are. Obviously getting a new person up to speed on the culture, etc. makes sense, but telling your current employees in those words what you’re going to say seems a little ridiculous to me. We are “the most trifling” location she’s ever worked at, according to that one instance.)

    When I told an old (well-liked by me and highly respected in the area) supervisor this person was my manager several months ago, it was clear all over her face how bad current manager’s reputation is. She told me she had “stories” and wanted to hear from me how things were going. I’ve had similar reactions from other folks, too.

    Current manager has offered to be a reference for me. It’s possible I’ll start looking in six or seven months depending on how things go. I have other reasons for not wanting to use past supervisors for references (aside from the one I had the conversation with above), but I’m concerned current manager’s reputation will either overshadow any positive reference she has for me (and I’d expect it to be super positive given our relationship and how she’s spoken with me in performance evals and day-to-day) or hiring folks won’t take her reference as accurate (as in, well, she’s erratic and overbearing, so that means something for the people she recommends).

    All that said, is it worth using her as a reference or is this just a lost cause? Theoretically the next manager will be just as impressed, so it’s possible I could use them, but that would probably mean revealing my job search to them.

    tldr; My manager has a bad reputation and she’s leaving soon. She offered to be a reference for me in the future and I know it would be an extremely positive reflection of me and my work but I worry her reputation will make hiring managers think twice about what she says in a reference interaction. Is there any point using her as a reference in the future?

    1. MarissaM*

      do you think her reputation is just within your job or industry-wide? it seems more like the former, in which case it seems to be fine to ask her for a rec, but if it’s really the latter, maybe not?

      1. Collie*

        It’s industry-wide within the tri-state region at a minimum. I know she’s worked across the country, though, so it’s entirely possible it’s wider-spread than that. Her name isn’t yet big enough that just anyone would know her, but she’s definitely memorable and fairly well-known in a forty-mile radius.

    2. Temperance*

      If she’s known for her erratic behavior and poor management skills, I’m not sure that she would be a worthwhile reference.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Nope, write it off. Your reference is only as good as the person who gives it.

      Also, what if she changes her impression of you after she sees you thriving and productive under a new manager? She’s already proven herself to be hostile and unreasonable.

    4. Collie*

      Thanks, y’all. I was leaning toward writing it off but felt icky about abandoning a potential boost (especially when I know it’s accurate, context aside). This makes me feel better about it.

      1. Observer*

        It’s a shame. But the problem for you is that no one else will know if it’s accurate or not. And that assumes that she won’t change her minds.

        Let’s face it, from what you describe, her reputation is well earned. I mean following people around the office for almost any reason is just toxic. If that’s typical of her behavior, I hope someone clues in the new manager to take anything she says about people or culture with a HUGE grain of salt.

  155. Mary*

    What is the etiquette of interviewing through an agency? I’ve had an agency yell at me because the company wanted me for the job but I decided I didn’t wanted it based on the things I learned at the interview. Now I have an interview coming up through an agency (a different one) and I would want to maintain a good relationship with them, in the event I might not want to take the job if offered after all.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      An agency that yells at you because you turned down a job you didn’t think was a good fit isn’t one you want to maintain a relationship with. Good recruiters don’t do that.

  156. Jennifer Thneed*

    Just want to whine for a bit. I got a contract-to-hire job as a tech writer at a local biotech start-up which has a mission that I like a lot. I didn’t get a ton of direction, but I thought I was bringing value. I’ve written a ton of documents. End of contract approaches, nobody is talking to me, my boss falls ill with a serious illness (and she is still on restrictions and only working 20 hours/week), it’s December with everything that implies, I’m having trouble getting feedback on the documents I’m creating.

    I finally pushed the HR person to tell me what’s going on — oh! they posted the job and strongly encouraged me to apply. I applied, got the auto-response, and then heard exactly nothing. They extended my contract by 2 weeks. I would love to have been just offered the job, but they want someone with a stronger bio sciences background. Okay, I can do that, I’ve been working contracts for awhile and while I dislike it, I understand reality — but nobody is telling me to wrap up my work. And they haven’t actually interviewed anyone yet, so there will be a gap between writers. Pfui.

    So I’m spending the next few days finishing what I can, and documenting exactly where things stand for all the documents I’ve created to date. And job-hunting. Bleah. Emails from 10-15 recruiters for each of the open jobs in the area. It’s nice to feel wanted, but I’m still having trouble with the self-confidence a person needs for interviews.

  157. Goya de la Mancha*

    Senator Tammy Duckworth will be the first to give birth while serving in office. I’d like to focus on the work aspects only – I don’t want this to turn into a political thing. She was “hired” by her constituents to fulfill duties during a certain amount of time, so…

    * Is there an ethical (for lack of a better word) requirement for you to attempt to fulfill your contract and to put off large decisions such as this until after your contract has been fulfilled?
    * Is her position different then any other job out there as far as how you handle your personal reproductive plans?
    * Is a pregnancy (which CAN be planned, just isn’t always) any different then if someone were to need leave for some other medical issue while in office (ie: Gabrielle Giffords).
    * Is pregnancy any different then adoption, where it could take months to years before you are able to finish the process.
    How would this work if someone was a free lancer/contracted worker? I assume they would tie up loose ends and stop taking new contracts for when they would be on “leave”.

    I internally battle with maternity leave/pregnancy in the work place in “normal” circumstances so I don’t know how I feel about it, just wondering how the work/legal stances would work out. One side of me says you were hired by and agreed to a contract to fulfill work during a certain time period, if you can’t work, that’s breaking the contract. The other says, obviously it’s no body’s decision as to when you get pregnant/have said child.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      There is so much to unpack here that I’m not entirely sure where to start.

      The US is very backwards in how it approaches parental leave compared to other industrialized nations and no employer has a right to dictate what an employee does in regards to family planning. There is no ‘one size fits all’ answer for how to deal with a situation like this because there are so may variables to consider.

    2. Buu*

      A Senator represents women as well as men, so she should be able to make the same choices as those she represents. I think it shows that women can be mothers and leaders, if we say they can’t you lead to the same situation where decisions are made by men about women and what they should and shouldn’t do with their bodies. More male leaders should also feel OK taking paternity leave for the same reason. Taking leave should be a part of a healthy life and the idea you can’t leads to bad productivity and health. If you put off having a family or taking leave until the end of a contract, you may very well never get time off.

      When I contracted new opportunities came up very quickly and if I took say 3 months out I’d loose say 2 year contracts. If you also say contract workers can’t have paternity/maternity leave then it leads to poorer conditions all around, at a societal level in affects certain groups more than others.
      I don’t have a family yet but for me plan as much as you can, but don’t sacrifice your life or the healthy upbringing of potential kids for a job.

      1. Driving School Dropout*

        Very much this. I am a constituent of Senator Duckworth, and I think it’s great. This is her second child, she had her first while she was a member of the House of Representatives. She did her job as a House Rep well enough to be elected to the Senate by the citizens of Illinois. I suppose the citizens of Illinois are free not to re-elect her if they have a problem with it.

        Also, just a note, she’s the first *senator* to give birth while in office. House members have given birth while in office before, including Tammy herself. She’s, I believe, the tenth congressperson.

      2. Overeducated*

        “A Senator represents women as well as men.”

        I love this. I’ve never thought of it in such simple terms. The fact that your phrasing surprised me – a woman, feminist, full time worker, and mother – is just a reminder of how deeply I’ve internalized the assumption that the “default politician” is male. And that assumption leads to politicians being able to assume that the “default human” is male. And, well, you’ve seen where that gets us.

    3. fposte*

      I’m one of the people she works for and it’s cool with me.

      She’s not missing out a year of her term; she’s taking a twelve-week leave and staying in town to make sure she doesn’t miss votes. I think she took a bigger separation when she was in Congress, and that’s a shorter term.

      (I did find one article about Duckworth that talked about the current Australian [sic] prime minister’s prime minister. What a surprise for Malcolm Turnbull.)

    4. fposte*

      I’m one of the people she works for and it’s cool with me.

      She’s not missing out a year of her term; she’s taking a twelve-week leave and staying in town to make sure she doesn’t miss votes. I think she took a bigger separation when she was in Congress, and that’s a shorter term.

      (I did find one article about Duckworth that talked about the current Australian [sic] prime minister’s pregnancy. What a surprise for Malcolm Turnbull.)

    5. Jennifer Thneed*

      Implicit in your question is the idea that giving birth will make Duckworth unable to do her job for some amount of time that is “too long”. How long are you thinking that will be? This makes all the difference in the world.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I would assume that she would be out for 6-12 weeks as that is the “typical” US maternity leave?

        1. fposte*

          There’s pretty good coverage on her actual plans, if you’re interested to learn more. It’s also worth checking the legislative calendar to see how much the Senate is actually in session during that time.

                1. Wow*

                  Um, not for everyone. That is a huge generalization. Not everyone loves kids or gets warm feelings because of them.

                2. Goya de la Mancha*

                  It was also sarcam in reference to her planning her child’s birth to align with her fundraising for office.

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          Okay, now think about how much of that time is for personal recovery from the very difficult work of giving birth. Unless it’s a c-section or a difficult birth, she won’t need that full time. Maybe 2 weeks? Maybe 1 week if she *really* pushes herself?

          A lot of the 6-12 weeks is for lifestyle transition, for getting used to new tasks, for bonding with the baby, for being awakened every 3 hours, etc. If a new mother has a full-time nanny, a lot of that goes away. Does that change your calculations?

          1. Goya de la Mancha*

            If she doesn’t take the full time is that setting back the argument for longer maternity leave? Is she setting a “she did it so it must be possible” standard for other women.

            1. Jennifer Thneed*

              That kind of thing is always a risk, everywhere, for everyone. eg: how many kids in school get compared to their older siblings?

              She might be a groundbreaker, but she’s also a human being. We need to allow her to just be a pregnant woman without “what-if’ing” things.

          2. Friday*

            The standard medical leave portion of maternity leave is 6 weeks for a vaginal delivery or 8 weeks for a c-section delivery with no complications. Many women push themselves to come back to work earlier the that (usually for financial/economic reasons) but there is definitely a “body-in-recovery” time period that should be respected whenever possible, and women in power also serve to set an important example of taking the time needed for physical recovery. I had a very routine birth last month and there’s no way I could have gone back to work at one or two weeks without being in loads of pain.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      This is like any other job. Pregnancy leave is like any other medical leave.

      How on earth would you enforce a “you can’t get pregnant while in elected office” rule? By only allowing men to be elected political figures? Should only men have jobs at all? Forcing women who run to take contraception? Forcing them to terminate a pregnancy if contraception fails? Kicking them out of office for procreating? People get pregnant. A lot of them can work up to or very close to their delivery date. Any one of our elected officials could have sudden medical cause to be out of office, some with much less notice than a pregnancy.

      And I don’t mean this comment politcally, but – I voted for Tammy Duckworth. And if I knew then that she’d be pregnant now? I’d still vote for her. Her uterus and the occupency thereof have exactly nothing to do with the reasons I voted for her or how she’s doing her job now.

      The fact that this conversation is even coming up makes me feel seriously skeevy.

      2. Goya de la Mancha*

        Sorry, it was not meant to be skeevy at all. I’m not advocating for ANY of the “enforcement” you listed. I was just wondering thoughts on it. I wasn’t trying to say she’s incapable of doing her job while she’s pregnant, I was pondering the maternity leave aspects of it.

        1. Lumen*

          Presumably other senators have taken paternity leave of one form or another. Do you have similar questions about that?

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Would you have similar “wondering thoughts” about a man with a history of heart disease? Diabetes? What about McCain and his cancer?

          1. Goya de la Mancha*

            With a history, yes. Health issues arise at any moment, which is why one of my questions was if a “planned” pregnancy was different then needing to be off for a sudden illness/injury.

    7. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I’m also one of her constituents. I think it’s great. I love knowing that she does the balancing act so many of us do. If women are going to be held accountable for giving birth in office, that’s going to cut down a huge portion of the viable candidate pool. And, frankly, I think we need more diverse points of view.

    8. Admin admin*

      I internally battle with maternity leave/pregnancy in the work place in “normal” circumstances

      Do you mean that you don’t think women should get maternity leave or get pregnant if they work?

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I mean I battle between personal rights and how businesses are affected by maternity leave. I think it’s great that companies offer time off (paid or unpaid) for parents, I’m not saying it shouldn’t be available.
        I am 100% pro-choice in every aspect and believe that children are important to our future as a society. However, having children is a CHOICE. And at what point does your choice outweigh the commitments that you have already made?

        I also see things from a business stand point as far as paying someone to be off for maternity/paternity leave and still having to perform at the same level for customer service. Whether that be hiring extra people, current people taking on extra work, etc. It’s a balancing act for all involved and the CHOICE to have a child does not just affect the new family.

        1. fposte*

          I can’t imagine any way to have parents in the workplace that doesn’t involve parental and parenting-related leave, and I can’t imagine any way to have a thriving society that doesn’t have parents in the workplace. So I may angst when a report goes out on maternity leave, but it’s still in service of a societal goal that I support.

        2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          My choices and commitments are the same. It is my choice to honor them or not. It is also my choice to walk away form said commitments when they no longer align with my vision or goals. Will there be repercussions if I choose to? Of course. But that is up to me to decide to accept.

          Any type of leave is a balancing act. For example going on vacation is a choice and balancing act. People need those breaks to keep from going stark raving mad. A balancing act is the cost of doing business for employees to be relatively sane and productive individuals.

        3. Thlayli*

          I don’t see how you can possibly call yourself 100% pro-choice if you don’t support the choice of women to give birth while *gasp* having a job.

        4. bb-great*

          You don’t really have the CHOICE to have children if you need to work to live and your job won’t accommodate your having those children. And not having accommodations disproportionately hurts women in the workplace, since in most instances having children means they medically *must* take time off.

          Also, people have the right to a life outside work. Sometimes things happen in that life, by choice or otherwise, that affect work. Any company staffed by humans will have to accept this. Bringing this back to a business argument: you will have a hell of a time with recruitment, morale, and retention if you expect your employees to work like robots.

    9. Student*

      This demands some context for the actual job, and precedents.

      Most senators are old, and a substantial fraction of them are in their 80s. Many senators have taken lengthy medical leaves. This last year, that includes McCain and Cochran. It’s not exactly rocket science to figure out that somebody in their 80s probably has ongoing medical issues of some sort, and at elevated risk of serious medical conditions, and frankly at relatively high risk of dying in office (average life expectancy for an 80-year old is 7 or 9 years depending on gender – not much longer than a congressional term).

      Nearly nobody asks old senators to step aside for someone more likely to live out their full term, or someone less likely to have health issues. Nobody asks that of younger senators with health issues either.

      Many senators miss votes. That isn’t necessarily a big deal, or a deal-breaker for voters. The guy who preceded Duckworth was Mark Kirk. Mark Kirk missed a year of votes because he had a stroke. Mark Kirk ran against Duckworth and lost to her – the republican primary voters were perfectly willing to send him back to the senate even though he had missed a bunch of votes and had a clear health issue that materially affected his ability to do his job. Other senators miss votes for health issues, or for campaigning.

      In contrast, Duckworth need not miss many votes because of the birth of her child – the period in which she can’t physically make it to the Senate will likely be very short. She probably won’t be productively negotiating bills or proposing legislation for a longer period of time. However, frankly, let’s compare that to the other senators. About half of senators last year didn’t manage to enact a law. As a member of the party that is in the minority in the Senate, in the minority in the House, and not in power at the White House, there were not going to be many chances for her to have any serious legislative impact whatsoever for the entire 2018 year, just like the vast majority of elected Democrats. It happened to Republican elected representatives for several years, too. If she was going to time it, timing it to when her party isn’t in power is a pretty good tactic.

    10. PieInTheBlueSky*

      We should not expect people who enter into a “contract” to be indestructible robots or ascetics. If you expect a person to forbear childbirth while serving in office, I think your expectations are too high. They are human, and human things will occur in their lives, whether birth, sickness, death, or something else.

      Also, remember that the Senator is not alone. She has a full time staff assisting her in her duties, and I’m sure she will stay in touch as needed. Her office is not going to be abandoned after her child is born.

    11. Book Lover*

      I am in the US, but this strikes me as a question that wouldn’t be asked in most countries in the world (perhaps I am wrong).

      She is 49, if she wants to expand her family she isn’t allowed to work? Because she certainly can’t put it off. And if she were 30, my answer wouldn’t change, because heaven knows you can think you have all the time in the world and that can be false.

      Pregnancy is most cases is not a condition that would result in being unable to work. Maternity leave is something that can be planned for, and in a political job, it is very likely that even the day after having a baby she could be in the senate for a vote if it was absolutely necessary (though I hope that is not the case).

      I decided to have a baby shortly after starting a new job. I planned for it, I told my boss at 3 months or so, and we started doing my schedule week by week toward the end of the pregnancy. Everyone covered for me while I was out on maternity leave, and life went on. In small businesses it can be more of a burden, but that is life/business. My family member who has a small business had three people on disability/maternity leave at the same time (bedrest) and it was tough but he coped, because that is what you do.

      I wish her all the luck in the world and if we elect a woman president soon, I would be delighted to see her manage a pregnancy in office, because worrying about women’s periods and pregnancies seems to be a big part of why women can’t get ahead and I am tired of that kind of sexism. By the time my daughter is an adult, I’d like to have seen at least two women presidents.

    12. Girlwithapearl*

      I’d be in favor of going a generation where the only people in the US senate are those who are pregnant and give birth while serving.

      Maybe then we’d actually enact a moral and just set of policies to support working moms and parents and children’s welfare.

    13. Artemesia*

      Having a child is more important than any of this. This woman is 50 — waiting is probably not an option.

  158. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    It’s been 9 months, my husband cannot get a job out here, and I am losing my tiny mind. He’s come achingly close a number of times but never been able to clinch it. (We’re in Salem, OR). We have to stay through May in order for me not to have to refund moving costs but after that I think we’re going to go out back East. Any tips for dual-career search? Or funny jokes because I’m seriously blue and I don’t want to cry right now?

  159. MarissaM*

    I work in a small company (about 50 people) with different departments. There is no HR and our office culture is relatively casual, though I also don’t have much to compare it to since this is my first real job out of college. I know that a lot of of the older people are friends who see each other outside of work, and the young people often have lunch with young people in other departments and do the occasional happy hour, but nothing very tight-knit.

    I have slept with my coworker three times and we’re pretty friendly and eat lunch together around 3x a week, often with other coworkers as well. Is it OK for us to keep hooking up? (We are the same age and have the same position but in different departments, so there’s no power differential and we don’t actually work together on projects or at all). I don’t think we’re going to enter any kind of monogamous relationship for various reasons, but in terms of the office, what are the ethics of this? It’s best to keep it a secret under lock and key, right? Oh, and as I mentioned, this is my first real job, so I also want to know – how common is this, and how OK?

    1. Graciosa*

      More common than one would wish, and highly risky.

      You can’t ever appear to let your personal relationships inappropriately influence your business decisions. There was a lot packed into that sentence, so parse it carefully.

      It is very common – more so the higher in the organization you go – for relationships to matter, but these are *business* relationships (for example, if the Teapot Silvering VP agrees to your request to present to your team about the latest developments in mixing metal with chocolate, it should be because you helped her out on the cross-functional spout project and not because she’s a sex partner).

      Your reputation as a professional matters. Again, parse that carefully – no concern if you have a minimum of 3 new lovers a night every day of the week – unless and until one of them becomes a *professional* issue.

      As you describe it, it’s not an issue – now. If one of you gets promoted, or you end up on the same project team or something that can change. If one of you finds a new relationship and the other gets jealous and starts subtly sabotaging the other at work, it will be a problem.

      Even if the two of you are just obviously a couple, it will limit your opportunities for building other relationships at work – who else could you be lunching with if you weren’t spending most of your lunches with coworker, and what would you learn from them? You can spend time with coworker outside of work.

      The best example of this being done successfully was a couple I worked with once for more than a year without ever knowing that they even knew each other. I found out they were married when one said they would talk to the other about something when they both got home (rather than leaving a message with me). At work, they were separate individuals who each did their own thing.

      If you can really, effectively keep this from affecting your work at all, it can work. You are taking a risk – sometimes it works, and sometimes it implodes catastrophically. Everyone is sure that their relationship is in the first category until it’s in the second.

      Good luck.

      1. ladydoc*

        Also, sorry to tell you, but no matter how much you think you can keep it under lock and key, everyone will eventually know. Office grapevines are like that. If that significantly changes your calculus then it’s a good sign you have a problem.

        1. Graciosa*

          Penelope Trunk wrote once that she always knew about all the office affairs – she just watched whose eyes connected after someone told a joke. People instinctively look to the person they feel closest to in order to share the moment of humor.

          The successful married couple I mentioned were separate enough organizationally to never be in the same meetings.

  160. nanabucaros*

    It is wrong to go to someone from other department, that you don’t talk or know and eat one candy that he puts a: “please yourself” sign on?? lol I felt completely stupid after I did it :S

  161. Goya de la Mancha*

    Ask Dept to pay for cont. ed. Class?

    I’m going through a slow patch at work. I found an online class to improve my skills in a program that I use frequently in my job. I asked my boss if it would be OK for me to do the class work during my work day as a) I have no other access to the program and b) it is FOR a work program, she agreed to this – obviously with all other duties coming first.

    I paid for the program with my own money, but now I’m wondering if I should ask if the department will reimburse? Reaching too far or can’t hurt to ask? I realize I am choosing to take the class and that it is not a requirement of me being employed. Normally our company does not pay for Cont. Ed. – but the class really only benefits the department as this is a program that I’m unlikely to use outside of my current position/field.

    1. fposte*

      Doesn’t hurt to ask. “Hey, I should have thought of this earlier but it only just crossed my mind–since everything I’m learning in the Spiderweb Teapots course is being applied at work, is there a possibility I could get some of the program costs reimbursed?”

    2. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t at this point.

      Your company normally doesn’t reimburse, and you’ve already had the conversation about the class with your manager and didn’t ask for the reimbursement up front.

      If you hadn’t had the conversation already, you could have asked for reimbursement and the time to take the class on the clock (hopefully making it clear that you understand that the reimbursement may not be practically available). If she had turned down the money and still given you the time, it could have left her feeling like she had given you what she could following an honest conversation.

      Now that she agreed to what you asked for, you don’t want to create the impression that you were just setting her up to ask later for reimbursement she can’t give you after she agreed to your original request.

    3. H.C.*

      Agreed with doesn’t hurt to ask, but be prepared for a ‘no’ – in most cases, education reimbursement need to be approved prior to enrollment.

      1. fposte*

        That’s my feeling too–that it’s not likely to get you anything. But it might open up a useful conversation.

  162. Quite Interesting (QI)*

    I thought QI’s Word of the Day on Facebook was very appropriate for AAM (though I have no idea how to pronounce it):

    ATHGHNÓ (Irish) – the work that you have to redo because it wasn’t done properly the first time

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      And is it pronounced like “aahhh noooo” ? Cuz that’s the sound I make when I have this realization!

  163. NickyAlex*

    How do I handle a micro/perfectionist manager. I am a capable professional, but I am allowing myself to feel in-capable.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’ve got a perfectionist/micromanagy mother, and I handle her by reminding myself that this type of behavior usually stems from their own anxieties. It’s not about me, it’s about her…doesn’t make it any less annoying, but it helps me endure.

  164. Searching*

    What’s the best way to find a good recruiter? I generally would start with a web search, but was wondering if there are best places to go straight to. I’m a mid-level well-paid tech product/project management IT professional in the Boston area.

  165. AMT*

    Does anyone know of any good resources (free or paid) for writing a federal resume, especially for the FBI? Might a resume consultant be worth it?

    1. Overeducated*

      I’ve seen Kathryn Troutman’s book(s?) recommended by people in the federal government and it should be easy to get one at a library. I have no idea if there is FBI specific advice, or if FBI resumes are different from the normal USA Jobs ones, though.

    2. Been There, Done That*

      I know nothing about the FBI, but for other federal agencies I cannot emphasize enough to use the resume/application builder on usajobs.gov. Most hiring officials (at least in the 3 agencies I’m familiar with from the inside and the other in a different Department I have good friends at) are very, very used to the format that usajobs sends them in. When people use the optional feature of applying with their own resume, it comes in a completely different format we aren’t used to reading. The last several positions we filled we advertised both for current federal employees and general public at 3 different grades…that translates as 6 batches of candidates with an average of 20 candidates each that made it to us from HR. Absolutely anything that makes your application harder for us to follow makes it less likely you’re going to get an interview no matter how fair we try to be (and we do!).

      Forget anything you know from the private sector about keeping your resume short. For a professional mid-career applicant, most people will max out the character limit in usajobs for each position. We have to ask every single person we interview the exact same questions (if an office doesn’t or interviews some candidates in person & others over the phone, it is a huge red flag) so you need to put everything you want us to know on that page.

      All that said, I don’t know if FBI has the same restrictions other federal agencies have…they may well have been given a lot more leeway (it would make sense).

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      Good Luck! Just remember to be somewhere relatively quiet and good phone service (if you’re on a cell) – not that I know from personal experience or anything….

      1. Argh!*

        I have decided not to be at home (previous experience!). Any suggestions for places? I will check out business centers at local hotels over the weekend. The times I’ve used them on business out of time they weren’t busy.

  167. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

    How do you handle it if a client asks if you’re pregnant but you’re not?
    This has happened to me a few times, and it’s just because that’s what my body looks like. It’s always extremely awkward, and I can’t be give a snarky or shaming reply (even if I could think that fast), because they’ve all been clients who asked. I just say “Nope” and smile, the hope being that they then have to suffer the awkwardness of having asked (Serves ’em right!). But I hate the whole thing.
    I’d love to have a quick reply in my back pocket for when this comes up again, as surely it will at some point.

    P.S. I have since retired the outfits I was wearing on those days.

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      When I was working as a receptionist I had an elderly man ask me how far along I was and I flustered and said “ohh a few months”….I HAVE NO CLUE WHERE THAT CAME FROM. He smiled and said congrats and that was the end of the conversation. I would suggest you don’t do that.

    2. Temperance*

      My favorite answer to that question is “no, but the night is still young” …. maybe not work appropriate, though.

    3. Une Quebecoise*

      My go to reply, while lovingly patting my belly – “Nope, just poutine*!”
      * poutine is a delicious combination of french fries, gravy and cheese curds which consistently has scuttled my efforts to eliminate the belly.

    4. Trillion*

      I can’t remember which lovely female comedian said it in her stand up routine, but I use it often: “I am with sandwich.”

      1. Emi.*

        This is pure gold and I hope I’m ever in rude enough company that I’ll get the chance to use it.

    5. Lumen*

      I like a good “*small, awkward laugh* What a question! [subject change]”

      It points out that their question is inappropriate without necessarily putting them on the spot. But honestly, I’m not sure how we’re going to get people to stop asking inappropriate questions without teaching them that these questions are out of line. Somehow.

    6. Thursday Next*

      The comments on this thread tickle me no end! But seriously, the response you’ve been using is perfect.

    7. Kuododi*

      I typically give the withering stare and simply respond “No” leaving the offenders to deal with the emotional consequences of their foolishness. Out in public I have had young children ask that question in which case I will be more kind in my response because they are too young to know what might be a difficult question for a total stranger. I usually take a minute to explain why some ladies look the way they do and that it is just fine, but not always a sign of impending birth! ;)

  168. LAI*

    Wow, I didn’t realize that no senator had ever given birth in office before! But I can’t imagine why this would be different from any other job. Pretty much everyone who is hired for any job is hired “for a certain amount of time”.

  169. MissGirl*

    I’ve realized with all the passenger seat advising we do on this site it’s really easy to give advice and much harder to take it. What things do you struggle with that you have no trouble knowing what the right thing is?

    For instance, Alison and commenters, me included, always tell people who are freaking out about sending an application or going on an interview because they don’t know if they’re ready to leave their jobs to chill. Go on the interview, send the application because neither is a decision. You’re only gathering information.

    I’m not actively seeking a job, but this week I saw one at a company I would really like to work for that I’m a good fit for. The second I decided to send an application, my anxiety monsters screamed about how could I be so disloyal to my manager and my company. You’re fine where you are. And, of course, their favorite freakout “CHANGE”!!!!

    I’m having trouble reaching out to my contacts there because I’m really good at self sabotage when I’m feeling insecure. But I’ve applied, and I’m sending emails out now. I’m freaking out in equal parts about getting it or not getting it.

    1. Trillion*

      I struggle with maintaining my own work life balance, but I’ll very firmly direct my friends to GO HOME when they’re still at work at 8pm at night.

      I’ve literally stayed up working on a project until 3am only to be back at the office at 8am. But if I find out my friends or family are being treated the same way, I become aggressive momma-bear. “What do you mean your project ‘must’ be finished by tomorrow. Your boss needs to understand that you’re a human being with a life! How dare she work you into the ground like that!” Yet, I’ve left more than one movie theater to take care of an “urgent” work issue.

      @MissGirl I feel your pain. Convince yourself that you’re just applying for the job for practice and to keep your resume and interview skills sharp. Also remember: business isn’t personal. You’re not being disloyal, you’re just furthering your career in order to satisfy the most important shareholder: you.

  170. Addy*

    Rant warning.

    I’m in a job that I’m overqualified for. Which is fine, actually, because there are other perks that make it worth it for me (family situation, flexibility, good pay, I’m not actively responsible for children’s welfare like I used to be), etc. I’m happy doing what I’m doing and am happy to not be stretching myself because I just don’t have the mental space for that right now with the other things going on in my life right now. I’m getting good feedback from my colleagues and boss and am exceeding expectations without a lot of effort or attention. This is the easiest, lowest stress job I’ve ever done, for the most money. I like my colleagues.

    However.

    Colleagues keep asking me if I’m happy or if they can help me get into other work or projects. It makes me feel anxious because I’m normally a very driven person, but I’m really quite satisfied with my situation right now. I feel like I have to justify what I’m doing, which I shouldn’t have to do. And I know it comes from a good place on their part, but I’m finding it extremely stressful.

    The other thing is in regard to a particular colleague. She’s technically our team lead, but she is not my boss. She’s younger and less experienced than me and doesn’t have as much knowledge and experience as I do. That’s fine also – I’d be happy to just mind my own business and let her do her thing. But she micromanages me (“Make sure you’re doing the TPS reports!” When I know that, and I’ve spent the morning working on the TPS reports) and it’s really disrupting my chill, I-don’t-give-too-many-f*ucks vibe. I’m used to working with more autonomy and being trusted to manage my own workload – I used to manage a staff of 20 and $10M projects. I think she gets stressed when things aren’t going well, and then stress-panics onto people around her. And I really feel quite sympathetic to that – I’ve been there!

    I just feel like I’ve finally got myself into a chill place about work and people are pushing me out of it, and I just do NOT have the emotional bandwidth to handle that in addition to what’s going on in my personal life.

    The conclusion is that I should just focus on the things I can control, right? And let everything else go. OK. Thanks for letting me rant!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      With the micromanager, maybe try to remind yourself that this is just the sort of stress you’ve left behind. And then secretly let out a happy sigh.

  171. Julia*

    I am a non-exempt employee and just got back from an overnight work trip this week. What are the norms for accounting for time worked in a situation like this? Can I count travel time en route to airport and/or the flight time as work time? I was actually doing work on the plane and late into the evening, so I’m planning to include this time, but was curious what others do / if there’s a standard approach for this scenario?

    1. fposte*

      There are standard federal legal requirements and there may be state as well. It gets complicated but in general, federal rules for an overnight trip are that if you were traveling during work time it counts as work; travel outside of work time doesn’t, but if you’re doing work during the travel it’s work time again. I’d check with your HR and/or look deeper online for your state to see how it all matches up with the travel you did.

  172. The Curator*

    Its been a week that sped by.
    The blog is a joy to write and has been well-received by my stake holders. If you want to know how donated manuscripts and art get in an archive look at today’s posting.

    The plane tickets have been bought for the business trip to Japan in April. (very anxiety producing)

    I conducted a VIP tour last Saturday so I am feeling no guilt about taking off early today and enjoying the unseasonably 40 degree weather.

    Going to see The Wiz at Children’s Theater Company tonight. Whoo hoo!

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      It’s 55 & sunny here, which is highly unusual for January in the Midwest. I’m glad you have the opportunity to get out and enjoy it!

  173. ADA temp*

    Does anyone have experience with requesting ADA accommodation when you’re working as a temp/contractor through an agency? Obviously an employer is required to make reasonable attempts to accommodate, but my legally-liable employer is a completely different entity from the client organization that would be the ones actually putting accommodations in place. I don’t work in my employers office (the agency), I work in the client’s office.

    Temp work is by its nature unstable, and I’ve been let go for truly ridiculous reasons before. (Basically amounting to “she got uppity,” including being let go just for asking the question if there was opportunity to be converted to direct hire eventually; and for attempting to negotiate in good faith when an offered conversion came with an $8K pay cut, an additional 10 hours of work per week, and zero benefits. In both cases I’d already been there proving my value for more than 6 months.)

    I’m not even sure how to approach this, or who to approach first, without taking a huge risk to my paycheck. If I try to tough it out until after I (hopefully) get converted to direct hire, that could mean 6 months or more of continuously increasing exhaustion. Adding to the problem is that while my health issues are (finally) legally considered a disability, socially they are considered invisible and/or not really real or serious, so I’d likely be dealing with the perception that I’m malingering. And the client not being my employer gives them a convenient way out of legal liability.

    Any ideas? Is there something I’m missing that confers the risk of liability on the client? When push comes to shove, I’ve never had success relying on “they seem like good / reasonable people here.”

    1. Colette*

      I would guess it depends on the job and the accommodation. If you’re asking for a stool so you can sit instead of stand, that might not be an issue. If you’re asking for reduced hours and company A has contracted with company B to provide someone for 40 hours a week, that could be a bigger impact (i.e. company B would have to supply someone else for the remaining hours or lose the contract).

      But I’m speculating here.

    2. Graciosa*

      I don’t have the experience of doing this myself, and it’s a little dicey because the accommodations have to come from the client rather than the employer in most cases. I would think your best chance would be very large clients with requests that are considered relatively routine.

      I am concerned a bit about some of the items in your second paragraph. You’re right that temps can be and frequently are let go for relatively minor matters (it’s often advertised as “try before you buy”). You don’t seem to realize that asking for conversion opportunities can be a serious breach of protocol. Some clients do not want to have those conversations directly with candidate service providers, and some contracts actually prohibit them.

      Clients who fundamentally just want the work done and expect to have any conversion conversations with the designated representative of your employer can regard individuals lobbying for job opportunities instead of doing the work very negatively. Your employer’s business is to keep those clients happy – I’m not surprised you would be pulled from an assignment for this, and you should be aware enough of the issue to understand that this type of reaction is a real possibility and not unexpected.

      On the other hand, I think the client should not have been surprised that you were not interested in a pay cut for more work!

      I wish I could think of something more helpful regarding ADA accommodations. Is what you need something you think could be sold to the client? “I have a great candidate with a lot of expertise in chocolate teapot analysis, but she only takes jobs which have handicapped parking available,” seems like no big deal to me as a client. It’s a little different if the request is, “but she’ll need you to invest about $20,000 in special equipment so she can work this 3-month assignment and her hours vary daily depending upon how she feels.”

      Lots of sympathy –

      1. ADA temp*

        Frankly, I think that viewing open and honest communication of work-related topics at work as a “breach of protocol” IS ridiculous. All I did was ask a question, they were free to say no, to my face or to the agency, if they wanted to. I’ll also note that my co-worker had already been converted a couple months prior, so it didn’t seem like a particularly strange question to ask. I’m an adult and don’t believe I should be treated like a problem child because I asked a perfectly reasonable question about what I should expect over the longer-term. Knowing the state of my financial stability is necessary for making life plans, and people who respect me would understand that. It’s not reasonable to expect me to be content with a mystery on that front.

        In the second case, the manager himself had been openly telling me (without prompting on my part) that they wanted to convert me for months, and were only waiting until I’d been there long enough to do it without paying the extra fee to the agency.

        I don’t believe I’m the unreasonable one in any of these circumstances. I guess I’m in the minority, but I think adults should act like and treat each other like adults in the workplace. I have no objection to try before you buy — I get to try them out too, and there are a number of perfectly reasonable reasons why it might not work out, but I’m not talking about those. When I’ve been there for six or nine months, have received absolutely no negative feedback regarding my work, and suddenly get tossed out the day after I asked where this employment relationship was going, YES, that’s ridiculous.

        1. Graciosa*

          Well, by your standards, complaining to the CEO about your parking space at a large company during a televised meeting without ever mentioning it to the person who assigns parking would not be a breach of protocol because it was just “open and honest communication of work-related topics at work.” Other people do consider that questions of time, place, and protocol can affect the propriety of an action – even when dealing with adults.

          I don’t disagree that mystery about your working future is problematic. I was merely pointing out that the other adults involved in the conversation may have expected you to address your questions directly to your current employer. Now that I know your actions to the contrary were not the result of a lack of information, I don’t think there is anything else I can offer that might be helpful to you.

          Good luck.

          1. ADA temp*

            Drawing an equivalence between asking a question of the supervisor most likely to know the answer (my direct manager at the work site) and asking the CEO about parking is a bizarre and ridiculous comparison. That’s a leap that defies anything resembling logic or reason, so I don’t know what the point in saying that was, short of making it obvious you have no valid argument.

            It’s also disingenuous to put words in my mouth so you can “win” an internet argument by knocking down your straw man. This isn’t a tactic that fools anyone into thinking you must be right.

            Your second paragraph is nonsensical and I can’t make out what you’re trying to argue. I did directly address my (client-side) manager, as I would normally for any other job-specific questions — I wouldn’t phone the temp agency to ask how they’d like me to prioritize my to-do list, either. I wouldn’t expect the agency to be able to read the client’s mind any more than I can. Obviously if I had the information I was looking for, I wouldn’t have needed to ask the question, so I don’t know why you think I wasn’t lacking information. Who asks for information they already have?

            I really don’t understand the point of this retort, other than perhaps trying (badly) to prove you’re smarter or righter than me. You do you, I guess.

    3. fposte*

      I’ll append some links about the legality in this situation–really both companies are on the hook. However, my impression is that this is one of the most difficult areas to get compliance in. Are you willing to share what accommodations you might be requesting? We might have some ideas for approaches.

      2. ADA temp*

        Mainly, work-from-home on days I’m not feeling well. Perhaps some flextime, too — basically trust me to hit deadlines without worrying precisely when my butt is in which particular chair. There’s nothing I do that requires me to be geographically located even in the same state, never mind the same office, and I’m equipped to do the work and communicate by phone, email, or Skype if needed, so you’d think it would be an easy ask. Yet when I have asked, I’ve never gotten a good reaction. (To be clear, I’ve asked in the context of negotiating an offer, or re-negotiating schedule after having been employed / proving myself for a year or so. I’ve not asked for it as an accommodation, as I’ve only recently learned that the feds reversed their prior decision, and my health issues now qualify.)

  174. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m interested in possibly pivoting in my career to give myself more options in my niche field–would taking a few MOOC courses in the area I’m looking to pivot to help me? If so, do I put them on my resume? I’m not sure whether MOOC courses/certificates (e.g. from Coursera or similar) are taken seriously yet or not, or if it depends on the field.

    I have a PhD in a related (academic) field, and have been working in an applied capacity for several years. I’m looking to push into an adjacent field that often lists a PhD in my discipline as a desirable or a requirement, but this new field is not one a where I have a lot of actual work experience or related coursework. A lot of my applied skills are transferable, but I’m looking to demonstrate that I can actually do this kind of work. I don’t want to go back for a second masters degree in this specific field, as I think a lot of that would be duplicative, but I do think that a refresher in the theory and some up-to-date knowledge of the practice from a few open online courses (from legit universities) could be helpful. I’m just not sure whether putting this kind of education on my resume would help or harm me?

  175. anonThisTime*

    I’ve got an opportunity to work part time as a subcontractor (my current job is laying me off, and I’m looking for another full time job). What questions should I ask? What do I need to be concerned about as a potential subcontractor? I’ve never done this before.

    I need to send an e-mail to a recruiter (this is a recruiter who works at the company that I’m trying to get a full time job with). They said that a hiring mgr would call this month. So far, no call. I can wait, but I’d like to know the timeline. Everything I think of writing sounds too pushy or else doesn’t really ask about the timeline. Anyone have suggestions for something to say?

    Thanks

  176. Trillion*

    Oh man, my C-level (the boss of my boss) is so incredibly angry with my boss and me.

    He ( Mr. C-level) instructed us that any contact with Vendor X that may contain sensitive information about topic Y needs to be routed through him so that he can either vet the message or send it himself. I had some questions about how exactly the vendor wants us to calculate some numbers for reporting purposes. I asked my boss if it would be okay to contact the vendor directly with the questions. It seemed like a minor thing to both of us, so she agreed that there’s no need to route through Mr. C-level.

    When Mr. C-level found out asked the vendor without checking with him first, he… was… livid. He’s such a chill dude; I’ve never seen him angry.

    Would it look like I’m shifting the blame if, when asked why I was terminated, I mention that I made a “bad” judgement call that my manager agreed with (but my executive didn’t)? Boss and I were both in agreement that it wasn’t a question that needed to be routed through Mr. C, so it’s not like I was directed to do it against my will. But the whole reason I checked with boss was to avoid such a situation.

    I just hope he has the decency to terminate me AFTER annual bonuses pay out in a few weeks.

    1. ArtK*

      A “chill dude” doesn’t fire people after something like this. A warning should be sufficient. Firing would be an horrific overreaction. If he fires you and not your boss, that’s worse.

      As for what to say if and when it happens? It’s not throwing someone under the bus to state that you both felt it was acceptable.

      1. Trillion*

        Thanks for your reply! I would be surprised, too, but he just won’t let it go. I know he loathes the program that I was hired to support and would gladly get rid of it, so I fear that he may end up just choosing to get rid of the software (and me). At least in that case, I could say “position eliminated.”

  177. Almost Violet Miller*

    Cover letter question.

    How would you explain in 2-3 sentences max why you want to go back to academia after 4 years of working in industry in a completely unrelated role?
    I do have to do some research so that can be seen as a common point but I’d love to hear some ideas how you’d frame this detour.

    1. Overeducated*

      Well, why DO you want to go back to academia? (I think sometimes Alison’s advice about what you’d say if you were speaking to a friend is the best start.)

    2. fposte*

      Are you sure it needs to be explained? I think it’s more crucial if you want to do the same work in academia–IOW, if “I like this job” isn’t on its own a justification–but if it’s a move up or different work I don’t know that the sector difference needs to be addressed on its own. (Suspect this is field-dependent, though.)

    3. Almost Violet Miller*

      Thanks to both of you! I am sitting on my bed, explaining my stuffed animal why I want this career change and it definitely helps my wording.
      By academia I meant graduate school (a PhD) so from their perspective it looks like I haven’t done anything noteworthy for the past 4 years, or not much anyway.

      1. fposte*

        Care to share what field? Most programs I know are going to want considerably more than 2-3 sentences about why you want to go there. It’s also pretty usual for people to have been working several before they start a PhD program so it’s not that you “haven’t done anything noteworthy”; you’ve just been working.

        1. ArtK*

          I just went back for a master’s after 36 years in the workforce. I wrote a whole bunch more than 2-3 sentences about why I was doing it.

  178. manager seeking advice*

    If a manager of 2 people (down from a team of 3 temporarily because of a retirement) gave one person permission for a day of months ago but now has to cancel it because the other newer hire person has a religious holiday, what is the most tactful way to go about it? The jobs are licensed/regulated so not just anyone including the manager can jump in and cover. Someone has to work so the day off must be cancelled.

    1. fposte*

      There’s really not even a possibility of getting in a temp or even closing outright? Then I’d rip the bandaid off quickly and understand the impact it will have–IOW, tactfully doesn’t really matter, because this person is going to be justifiably ticked off and may even leave over it. Can you offer them a compensatory extra day later?

    2. Temperance*

      It really depends on what the day off is. I would be really, really angry if something personally important to me was taken away for someone else’s religious holiday. Is a temp an option?

      1. manager seeking advice*

        Unfortunately it is a licensed and regulated position. It is not something you can just call temp agency to get someone for one day.

      2. manager seeking advice*

        “The jobs are licensed/regulated so not just anyone including the manager can jump in and cover.”

    4. LAI*

      Agreed with the other commenters here. I would advise just closing your office for the day rather than rescinding the day off. If I request a day off, it’s because I have specific plans for that day, usually involving money spent. In my field, it’s unheard of for a day off to get cancelled, everyone would be upset and I would absolutely consider leaving over it.

      1. manager seeking advice*

        The office can’t be closed. I cannot make that call and it is not going to happen. Someone has to work as I stated in my first post. It is unfortunate but I have to cancel the day.

        1. nonegiven*

          What are you going to do if they are pissed off enough to quit on the spot or give notice that their last day will be the day before?

          1. fposte*

            Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Especially if I’ve actually booked something paid for that time, I might very well choose the day over the job.

            If you can’t make the call to close the office, I’d contact whoever does and explain that we’re quite likely closing down the office for a day either way; it’s just that one way we also will be running on half our licensed staff for several weeks as well.

    5. LCL*

      Why does a newer request trump an existing approved request? It shouldn’t matter what the reason for the day off is.

      1. manager seeking advice*

        We don’t want to run afoul of the law by denying a religious holiday. The last thing the company wants or needs is a lawsuit. It is unfortunate but I have to cancel the day off. There is no other option because it is a position not just anyone can cover. If we were not still in the process of hiring a 3rd person to replace the person we lost this would not be an issue.

        1. nonegiven*

          Was this a surprise religious holiday that came up because the person converted to a new religion? How did they not have it marked on the calendar before the other person asked off?

          1. Doodle*

            I think the second employee (the one with the religious holiday) was hired after the original day was approved.

    6. H.C.*

      Does the newer direct report need that religious holiday off? If not, you can explain that older employee had requested this day off before the new person’s hire, and if the new person can work that day (& offer a comp day/overtime/etc. if you are able) – but moving onward you will be able to accommodate that holiday.

      If the newer person really does need to take that day off, I agree with fposte to just rip the bandaid and let older direct report that you have to rescind the already-approved day off request due to newer report’s religious observances & current team shortage (again, offer overtime/comp day/etc. if available).

      1. manager seeking advice*

        The newer person was told of the situation. They “don’t care” (their words not mine) and there was talk of a lawsuit or getting a lawyer. They feel their holiday takes precedence and our lawyer agreed we should not risk a lawsuit. I don’t want to cancel the day off but I don’t have a choice.

        1. Baratella*

          If I was the employee who was getting the holiday cancelled I’d switch religion then switch back!

          Seriously – what if both employees were of the same religion and couldn’t work that day.

    7. Anono-me*

      I would be sure that the person who asked for the day off doesn’t also need it off for religious reasons first.

      When cancellimg leave, please do whatever you can to minimize the impact or compensate the employee for any losses due to the cancellation.

      I would cancel the leave as soon as possible in order to give the person time to make new plans or find a new job that will allow them to have that day off.

  179. Investigate this*

    Well. I just discovered that I am the subject of an HR investigation. I wonder what I’m suspected or accused of doing!

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I would think a first step of a good HR investigation would be to let the investigee (?) know. Not exactly the kind of thing you want someone finding out through the grapevine. *eye roll*

      1. Investigate this*

        My boss called to tell me because she found out about it from HR and she didn’t want me to be blindsided. Apparently they’ll be emailing me next week. (Gotta admit, I’d rather have not been told on a Friday afternoon, though knowing today did mean I could post here!)

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m not sure about a month – I think she does sometimes answer questions that are older, but perhaps my information is outdated. Is it time sensitive?

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I sometimes answer questions that are many months old, but I also only answer a small percentage of what I receive (because I get 60+ questions a day) so there’s no guarantee. Feel free to email me to check if I have yours in a “to definitely answer” queue.

  181. Geek Girl*

    I recently moved to a new state and am looking for work – basically office manager / admin type of work. It has been 7 yrs since my last job search, but previously my experience with a staffing agency was to call and make an appointment to meet with a recruiter to discuss expectations, job history etc, and possibly take some software or typing tests. Then the recruiter would have a better idea of what type of job I was looking for.

    Is that not the case anymore? It seems they all just want you to check their website and apply to a job you are interested, and/or to submit your resume online and hope they match you with a job opening.

    I was just curious for advice on how to approach a staffing agency (or if I should even do it…)

    1. MoneyPenny*

      I would seek out smaller agencies as opposed to the large ones like AppleOne, Robert Half, etc. I went through something similar and found that the smaller agencies have a much better grasp of what’s available, what the work would be and are more personable with their approach. The one I work with brought me in to interview in person with the agency itself to get a sense of who I am and what I’m looking for before even connecting me with possible roles. They also work to cultivate and maintain good relationships with the companies they are hired by. I was even coached before my interviews with my current/only assignment. Finally, they are very responsive when I have questions about my benefits and I know my “account manager”.

    2. Recruiter*

      It doesn’t hurt to meet with one. Smaller ones for sure. Even multiple agencies. With mine, since we handle a wide variety such as light industrial, entry-mid-upper level clerical, skilled trade, IT, etc. I do prefer that people have a good idea of what we have to offer before I meet with them because people are so not so nice when I spend 30-45 min with them and have nothing to offer them. I have a large pool of people with really specific skill sets that I may or may not get anything in for, and a pretty set roster of clients. I don’t want to have to go over 30-40 job openings (no time to do that) but I am always happy to sit and meet with someone that does a little research about what we typically handle, and then we can go from there. The rest of the process is exactly like you are describing. After I meet with a candidate, I do some testing and hopefully we get a position for you, if we don’t already. If a candidate is really nice and engages with me, I will take a lot of time, especially if they are new to the area and go over other tips I have or recommend employers that we don’t necessarily handle. If a candidate is rude or condescending in any way, or doesn’t drop the sales pitch for themselves to just have a normal conversation, I won’t.
      I have consistently received great feedback from the candidates I have met with, both ones that I found a job for and ones that I haven’t, just because of the attention I have given them (not all agencies will do that, but good ones will). I refuse to treat people like a number. However, the minute someone becomes rude or complains about the way I do my job, or about that fact that I don’t have a job for them yet, I will quit working on their file and move on a candidate that is kind and appreciative and open to ideas. I have been interviewing a lot of HR people lately and they have all told me that there is no way they could do my job, due to the pressure and the literal job of finding a needle in a haystack for every position. So be nice and understanding, and they will bend over backwards for you.

  182. Tabby Baltimore*

    For Glassdoor account holders: Can anyone tell me if there’s any negative fallout from getting a Glassdoor account (spam-type fallout, not professional fallout)? I’d like to read more than what I’m given access to as a “guest” viewer, but is it possible to register on the site with a fake name, for example? Thanks.

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I bit the bullet and registered and have had no fallout. I think the info has been really useful!

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      They keep bugging me for more information about myself every time I log in, but on the whole, it’s been worth it to get full access.

    3. Bad Candidate*

      I don’t get spam from them. Occasionally they send me emails about jobs to apply for, but I think you can turn that feature off if you want.

    4. Ainomiaka*

      I have gotten an update digest of new reviews of companies I reviewed but I think you can turn it off. No other spam.

  183. FedUpAdmin*

    I’m the office manager/exec assistant to the CEO of a medium sized office and have been with the company approaching two years. I’m good at my job but don’t enjoy admin work. When I originally took the position, it came with the promise of growth in various departments and after a year, a promotion into the field I’m most interested in. It felt like a good chance to take due to the money and mentorship opportunities. However, the CEO that made that promise has now left and I have a new boss. He knows that my goals lie elsewhere and I’ve tried my best to take on additional projects in the fields I’m interested in, but I’m feeling like I’m never going to get moved into the field that I know I could excel in/enjoy. I tried looking for another job, but nothing can match my salary which I can’t afford to lose. Also, I’m not even fully committed to leaving the company, I just don’t want to keep doing admin work forever which I find unfulfilling. How can I be straight with my boss that something’s got to give without risking my current position?

  184. DeeGeeP*

    So I just learned that I didn’t the job I interviewed for a a few weeks ago. I’m beyond furious. Not because I didn’t get the job. I’m upset because this was a four hour interview with five separate interviewers, many of whom asked repetitive questions. I had to take a whole day off of work for this interview. I’ve wasted a whole day of my life to meet with people that I will never see again. I’m beyond offended. Is there a way to say something without coming across as a total ass? Or is this something I just need to suck up and move past?

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’ve been there, but I don’t think that there’s probably a whole lot you can do about it. I had no idea mine was going to take so long; when he said it would be with 3 people, I assumed that I’d talk to them all at once! It started at 4, and when he walked me out at 7 in a total daze, he made a comment that they were “right on schedule” and then laughed and said, “well, my schedule at least.” I’m not sure how those types of interviews can be useful for judging anything but a person’s stamina. My brain was absolute mush by the last guy. I didn’t get the job either, but it’s educational to know that it’s not just a weird quirk of this one company.

    2. fposte*

      Honestly, I think that’s just standard in a lot of places. Whether it was overkill for this job depends on the field and the level. Sorry you didn’t get it, though; that’s frustrating.

    4. Graciosa*

      Move past this.

      There is no guarantee that you will get a job just because you invested time interviewing for it. On the other side, the interviewers spent a lot of time interviewing a variety of candidates. Do you think they should perceive this time as “wasted?” on the unsuccessful applicants? Maybe bill them for it? [Not trying to be mean, trying to illustrate why you need to accept a certain amount of “wasted” time as part of the process.] We have to take the time to talk to each other to find out if the job and candidate will fit each other.

      I will say that if you ever think that the amount of time demanded for an interview process is excessive, it is fine to say so up front. You can withdraw from the process entirely (thinking that you don’t want to work for a company asinine enough to ask candidates to cook a group dinner and perform a skit but saying something more professional as you leave). You can politely ask whether it would be possible to consolidate some of the interviews and reduce the request from five hours to something less.

      When I was hired at my current employer, there was a point at which I was left in the closed and empty cafeteria alone for something like an hour (my escort ran off to deal with an unnamed business emergency). I decided I was okay with that, but my decision wouldn’t have changed if I hadn’t gotten the job.

      You need to object / withdraw at the time if it’s truly unacceptable. If your reaction is only because the end result was not an offer, you’re upset about the choice rather than the process used to make it. Let that go.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I agree with the others; this is often par for the course. As one’s career progresses, the interview process can get even longer. Some companies bring people in for multiple short interviews, some do it all in one day. Even with an interview like that, a job is never guaranteed.

      I was flown out cross-country for an interview. Had to take a day off work. Got very little sleep. Spent the whole day at the company headquarters. Unfortunately ran into a work colleague on the flight home. Super stressful! Didn’t get the job. Did it absolutely suck? Yes. Was I blindsided when they turned me down? Definitely. But… them’s the breaks, and I urge you to move past it.

    6. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, I’m about to do that to people, because we bring in two finalists for an elaborate final interview day. But there’s not really any way around it — my other option would to be to have more rounds, because need all of the people to sign off on my decision in order for the new hire to be successful.

      And who’s to say you’ll never see them again? Presumably there could be another opening at that job and/or any of the people you met with could end up other places.

    7. nep*

      Sorry you didn’t get it, especially after that investment of time and energy.
      You’ve got to just put it behind you and move on. As (momentarily) satisfying as it might be to say something, it’s only counterproductive in the long run. It won’t serve your higher goals.
      Best of luck in the job search.

      1. nep*

        (Not to mention you never want to burn bridges. You never, ever know how or why people will cross your professional path down the line. If you move on in a mature and dignified way, should you ever encounter any one of them again, it’s just a clean, fresh start with no baggage of ‘Oh, yeah — about that email I sent…’)

        1. beanie beans*

          You also never know what might happen with the candidate they DID select! Maybe it falls through, or the person doesn’t last long. It sounds like you were one of the final candidates, so there’s always that chance that they might come back to you if the first pick doesn’t work out.

    8. MissGirl*

      This is very normal and not out of bounds for an interview. Look at it is an opportunity to meet new people, expand your network, and learn more about a company.

      I’m sorry you didn’t get the job but nothing they did is offensive.

    9. Sam Foster*

      Seems pretty typical from my personal experience and what I’ve heard from colleagues. Being “beyond furious” seems a gross overreaction to me.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        In this order:
        1) Take a nap
        2) Work out
        3) Eat Mexican food
        4) Start cleaning my house to throw the biggest party ever had
        5) ?????
        6) PROFIT

  186. Queen of Cans & Jars*

    So I just got a position as a content editor for an educational website. It’s very part-time, but the pay rate is decent and it seems like an easy way to make a little extra cash. I’m a little nervous about it, but since I’m not leaving my current job or anything, I am kind of viewing it as a way to dip my toe into this line of work to see if it might be something I’d like to get into as a career. Anyone have any experience doing something similar? I’d love to hear insights or tips for success.

    1. nep*

      I’m interested in what people will have to say here.
      Queen of Cans & Jars, do you mind saying how you found the job? What was the application/hiring process like?
      Thanks.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        It was posted on FlexJobs.com. It was a little weird because there wasn’t really an interview. I completed an online assessment and then got an email that they were interested in hiring me for the position. I had a conversation with someone from the company and we worked out the details. They checked out on Glassdoor, so I’m not worried about it being a scam or anything. It’s only like 5 hours a week editing lesson plans, so I guess they’re mainly just looking for someone who knows how to edit, which my assessment would’ve shown I knew how to do.

        1. nep*

          Thanks for this. I’ve thought about investing in the FlexJobs access — perhaps I’ll give it a shot.

  187. rant rant rant*

    I just need a place to vent about a freelance editor who is driving me crazy. Despite the fact that I told him at the beginning of the project that he shouldn’t be working on X and should focus his attention on Y, he has been pestering me multiple times a day about various types of X and basically wasting a ton of time fretting about things that don’t matter. He also has a tendency to really exaggerate the difficulty of things that are basic parts of his job and wants a lot of unnecessary handholding.

    Finally the icing on the cake is that he’s now working on a project that I previously worked on, and is telling my boss how sloppy it is, and how much extra work it’s going to require. Not that I think I’m perfect or anything, but this project was in very clean shape when I got it, and I reviewed it very carefully, and I’m pretty sure this is about as easy a project as it’s possible to get. Now the freelancer is making me look bad just to justify the fact that he’ll probably waste a ton of time fretting about non-essentials and end up turning in the project late. He also takes on this very aggrieved tone whenever he spots an error–you’re an editor! That’s your whole job!!

    Okay, rant over.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you talk to your boss about that project specifically? ” I was surprised and concerned to hear Editor say there were problems with the document because I reviewed it very closely before handing it off.” Then hopefully you still have the original so you can hand it over and say, “here’s the doc I sent, can you show me an example of the issues that Editor is finding?” Then hopefully boss will see that Editor is mostly making stuff up.

    2. Alex*

      Ugh I had to work with an editor just like that for a while! It was so annoying, and EXPENSIVE, because we pay by the hour. I’d say, “Hey, don’t worry about X, Y, and Z. We have automated systems that do those things.” And she would say “But that is how *I* edit things. *I* have to be thorough.” Of course, she’d then bill a lot of hours because she spent time doing extra work. Then she would tell me she couldn’t accept work in X, Y, Z format, that I had to change P and Q before she would work on it. Huge PITA and I tried to get her fired several times but it wasn’t my call. Thankfully, she quit, and my new editor is fantastic–quick-working, does just what I ask, no more, no less, and best of all, doesn’t call me to complain about crap!

  188. Duffel of Doom*

    I’m job hunting, and there’s a marketing firm nearby that seems like it could be a good fit for me. They have a large number of positions posted, one of which seems ideal, but a quick check of Glassdoor reviews told me they *always* have a number of jobs posted, so they don’t seem to be hiring to fill gaps.
    Also, each job description is only 2 sentences, plus the standard “email a resume and cover letter to X address.”
    Is this weird? Is it a red flag?
    It seems vague and impersonal…

    1. Lumen*

      It doesn’t seem like it’ll be a great place to work. The most generous thing I can imagine is that they have very, very high turnover.

      On the other hand, what is to be lost by sending them your resume and cover letter?

    2. ArtK*

      It could be that they keep job postings open in order to collect resumes for when they actually need people (possibly for contract work.) I know a company that does this — bugs the heck out of me.

  189. Regular commenter, anon for this*

    Damn, I’m really late to the party! I do have a question for this week’s thread, on the off chance anyone scrolls down far enough to see it.

    I work in a highly specialized, small field: say chocolate teapot analysis. My work brings me into the orbit of many of the people in this field, though often just in passing. My SO of more than a decade recently switched fields to something fairly general that all businesses need–think IT or human resources. We’ll call it tea support. He just graduated from his program, and he’s job hunting, without a ton of success. The companies he’s looking at run the gamut from small, specialized outfits, to fortune 500 companies, to corporate offices of fast food chains. Now, an organization in the chocolate teapot analysis field (which I’ve worked with on collaborative projects in the past) is looking for a tea support specialist. My SO is pretty plugged into my work, both because I talk about it with him so much, and because he attends my work functions that include families; he actually helps remind me of certain things related to my work that slip my mind.

    So: how much can he mention his familiarity with the field in his cover letter? I’m kind of leaning toward just advising him to say he admires the work they did on Project X and Y, but if they don’t realize his connection to this highly niche field, they’ll assume he’s blowing smoke and just found that info on their website after five seconds of googling. I feel like it will be fine to bring me up in conversation if he gets an interview to explain his interest in the company. But it seems almost childish to mention your girlfriend in a cover letter. But at the same time, he really is in a better position to do good work for this company because he’s already so familiar with this niche field–and it’s highly unlikely that most tea support specialist will have even HEARD of chocolate teapot analysis. It would be sad if he left this detail off his cover letter then didn’t get an interview at all. Would it be OK to keep it vague and say that members of his social circle work in the field, so he’s long been familiar with the great work they do?

    Also, sadly, I don’t have any connections at this company that would be useful to him. The people I collaborate with are in a totally different department. I was in a workgroup meeting with the executive director last week, but he doesn’t really know me. At most, he’d know he’d seen me somewhere before if he saw my face, and my name MAY sound vaguely familiar to him.

    1. fposte*

      Don’t mention your girlfriend in your cover letter. It’s fine if they think he researched the company on his own–that’s not a bad thing for a candidate to do.

    2. Anxa*

      Is there something specific he could reference about admiring the work that places him on the fringe of the field?

      I can identify with this pretty strongly. My SO is an early career scientist, and I was a biology major. I’ve always had an interest in his branch of bio, and I’ve lived with him for 5 years. His friends became myfriends and my social sphere was basically a bunch of people in that department.

      Well, after a few socials in his new job, based on my ‘small talk,’ every one had thought I was also a scientist in his field and asked him which lab group I worked for.

      But I still wouldn’t mention it in an interview or cover letter. But I would mention as a clause or sentence assisting him as a casual research volunteer or something. Something tangible, like a necropsy I shadowed.

  190. Jen RO*

    I’m late, but I am hoping someone still sees this.

    One of my reports recently had a miscarriage (her second in the past year). I tried to support her as much as possible (dealt with HR on her behalf, etc) and she is out on leave until next week.

    …But she is also not performing at the level she should be. This is nothing new, her performance was never stellar, we’ve had some discussions in the past after which she improved somewhat, but a few months ago (before the last pregnancy) her performance started slipping again.

    I know I need to talk to her again about her performance, but when and how? She probably doesn’t feel like working at all right now, but we are understaffed and I need her to contribute. Is this even possible or should I just resign myself to her being less productive while she recovers? (Less productive than her usual not-so-productive-in-the-first-place…)

    1. fposte*

      Ugh. I would say wait while she recovers, but that entails a definition of “while she recovers”–do you have one? I’d leave it for a month after she returns and then start counting errors again unless you have a different definition.

      1. Jen RO*

        I have no idea, really. She is a sensitive person, but who does not show her feelings… she always seems happy and chipper and I expect her to try to keep that up when she is back. (She was not very far along, so our coworkers didn’t know anything. She was fairly open with her first miscarriage, but I don’t know what she will decide now.)

        We have a 1-on-1 right after she gets back… I’ll see how she feels and try to figure out when I can broach the subject of “pls stop sucking and being lazy”.

        1. Anon for this*

          You could maybe suggest that she try counselling. I was raped a few years ago and my work definitely suffered. My boss called me in after a couple weeks and I thought I was going to be fired coz I’d been so useless but he didn’t criticise me at all. He asked if I as depressed, if I had considered counselling, if I needed any help with anything. He was really nice. It was the kick in the arse I needed to go get counselling. Which sorted me out and I was back on my game nice and quick.

          I also had a miscarriage a few years later. And I want to say that that was WAAY worse than being raped. I’m sure other people would feel differently, but for me the miscarriage was far and away the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I needed counselling after that too.

  191. Anon for this*

    I hate to even ask this, but when you hear that someone’s described as sucking-up at work, do you automatically assume that means that they “tattle” on their colleagues?

    I was having this conversation with someone from a work environment different from mine and that’s their understanding of that term, whereas in the environments I’ve spent time in it’s meant to refer to just ingratiating yourself and trying to be all BFF-y with your manager. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I’m a little wary of anybody who uses that term to mean anything, tbh. I automatically assume that the speaker is somebody at high risk of being unprofessional and I will treat them carefully.

      1. Anon for this*

        I’d tend to agree with you – that said, I didn’t actually refer to anyone using that term. The other person did, and I was confused about what the heck they were referring to.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I figured it was something you heard. But honestly, I’d be more concerned with the person using such a term than whoever they were talking about.

          1. Anon for this*

            It’s suspicious when people are categorically adverse to maintaining healthy relationships with their managers.

            But I’ve also spent a lot of my career in white-collar non-union environments with little cultural divide between management and non-management staff, and where “tattling” about inconsequential garbage would be seen as problematic to begin with, so perhaps my privilege is speaking.

      2. Thlayli*

        Yeah, in my experience people who accuse others of “sucking up” are usually just not good at their job and are accusing people who are good at their job of “sucking up” because it makes them feel better.

    2. Esme Squalor*

      Personally, I would interpret that comment as meaning someone is a brown noser, essentially being overly complimentary of bosses and being too eager to do favors for them. I wouldn’t think of that term as encompassing being a tattle-tale.

    3. Chris*

      No, whenever I hear this I think of a sycophant.
      But I did work with people in retail that would assume the tattling aspect, because for them sucking up and tattling were the same thing.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, the person who equated it with being an informant is from an environment that’s similar to retail in some ways.

        For them, it’s not particularly clear that there are circumstances where you may need to discuss a colleague’s contributions with your manager outside of the context of “tattling”, which is…I don’t even know where to start with that.

    4. Alpha Bravo*

      I used it above as shorthand to describe a coworker who received a disproportionate amount of face time with a boss who was not very available to his other employees and spent much of that time in social interaction (discussing non-work topics, laughing at boss’s jokes and so forth). At work she pretty much did whatever she wanted, seemingly as a result of her fawning behavior toward the boss. I don’t know if I’d call it tattling, but she did insert herself into situations where she certainly hampered communication between coworkers and management. For example, I needed to ensure my shift was covered while making arrangements for my spouse to be picked up from the airport. I discussed options with coworkers as our process was to work this out with teammates and arrange our own coverage. Since none of my coworkers agreed to cover, I asked a family member to pick up spouse. Done. Next day the boss is going crazy trying to find coverage for me. Apparently she had gone to him expressing her concern that I would not be at work. So, that’s my take on suckups and how they act. There’s probably a much better way to express this behavior but I’m not sure what it is.

  192. DrWombat*

    I was flown down to a research center in TX this week for a job interview, and they have (unofficially) offered me the job! I should get the formal offer letter soon! It’s a postdoc position doing some really exciting research in my field, and I’d get the experimental skills I’d need so that in 2 years or so, I could apply for a faculty position. Plus I’d also be close enough I could visit some family for a long weekend or so, and the cost of living is a lot lower than in CA. I am still just so emotionally overwhelmed but also super excited – I’d also be moving a lot sooner than expected, so I’d have to find a place sight mostly unseen, and list my current apartment for a spring/summer lease takeover which may be hard to find. But I am just super excited and it’d be a really good fit, so I am super stoked!

    3. zora*

      OMG! I had totally planned to say “Hi Neighbor” in the weekend thread tomorrow, because I saw your posts from last week late, but I LOVE Revelation in Fit, I am right in their neighborhood! But instead i’ll say CONGRATULATIONS, DOCTOR!!! This sounds awesome, but the Bay will miss you!

      (also, if your apartment is a 1 or 2 bedroom, I might be interested, I can post a throwaway email address if you want to get in touch ;))

      1. DrWombat*

        @zora, that’d be great re the apartment – it’s a 1br right by the UC Davis campus, below market rate. It’s only for spring/summer, they aren’t doing apartment pass-downs anymore, but if you know of anyone, I’d be moving basically during winter quarter’s finals week and it’s a lovely apartment and complex. Also looking to sell a futon frame, a dresser, and some bookcases.

        Thanks Higher Ed Database Dork and fposte! It will be an interesting change, I think. So far have lived in FL, IA, CA, now TX!

        If anyone has tips for good places to get furniture in the panhandle I’d appreciate it. Current plan is only to take mattress, desk, and some chairs with me and just get everything else when I get there. When I moved to CA, was able to buy furniture there and just fit everything else into my car, but now looks like it will be some sort of U-Haul or U-Pack situation. (Mover suggestions also appreciated). Also how good is Suddenlink as an ISP? I’m used to Comcast.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Unfortunately I can’t give you any advice about the panhandle as I live in DFW, but I did visit Palo Duro Canyon once and it was beautiful, so be sure to check it out. :)

    5. DrWombat*

      Also I do want to credit the blog with giving me the idea to ask “What do you see as the biggest challenges of this position?” and “What do you enjoy about your role here?” during the interview. I think both went over well, but also the former gave me a lot of good info regarding expectations. ^^ Thanks!

  193. Anonym*

    I need a gut check on sexual harassment reporting. Hopefully it’s not too late for people to see this.

    I have a colleague in a different department, Gina, who’s being sexually harassed by her manager, The Creep. She jokes about it, but I’ve told her it’s wildly unacceptable, no one should have to deal with this. (Inappropriate comments, much chest staring, seen and experienced by other women who work with them.) She’s finally admitted she’s job hunting because of him. He’s also a garbage manger, unsurprisingly: vindictive, plays favorites, etc.

    It’s really weighing on me, so I talked to my boss, who is The Creep’s peer (and I trust him). He was horrified, and is giving a couple weeks at most for me to try to persuade Gina and the others who’ve witnessed/experienced it to report it, either to HR or the company’s anonymous ethics hotline. If they won’t report, he’ll bring it up with the grandboss, but she’ll be able to take action more easily with firsthand reports than thirdhand rumors. The problem is it’s a small department, and it will be clear who the main target is, and I can understand how Gina might be reluctant to do anything. If she and the others aren’t willing to report, I’ll push for her to share the information with management once she’s found a new job. Even if she’s out of the line of fire, the problems will continue.

    What else should I do? Anything to consider? Any aspects of the situation I’ve missed? Thanks for any insight, advice, criticism you guys can offer. This really sucks and I want to do the right thing, for Gina and anyone else who may cross his path.

    1. fposte*

      I understand her reluctance, but in a workplace it can’t just be left to the target’s choice, because the target isn’t the only victim of the behavior. I think you did the right thing and I’m glad your boss is prepared to take action.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      If Gina is reluctant to bring it up because of retaliation, I’d make sure your boss talks specifically about that with grandboss, and makes it known to Gina that she will be protected from retaliation.

    3. BlueWolf*

      I think in most places any employee (and especially a manager) has an obligation to speak up about harassment that they are aware of. You don’t have to be the direct victim to report it. I am not an HR person, but I imagine HR will do an investigation. You don’t have to have absolute proof to report something, HR is there to collect that information. Obviously it is nice to give the victim a heads up that you have an obligation to report the situation so that they aren’t blindside when HR starts poking around, but they may not be the only victim as fposte said.

    4. Graciosa*

      One thing that may help is knowing that the company HAS to address this (or face huge issues later for failing to do so). Sometimes the Ginas of the world don’t say anything because they don’t think anything will be done. That should never be the case, and it sounds like the company is well aware that inaction is not an option. She may feel differently knowing that she has support and that others see this is unacceptable and not her fault.

      Even if it didn’t happen without prompting and support, Gina may end up feeling better about the situation if she reports it herself. In some ways, it may be the difference between fight or flight – both are valid responses, but standing up for yourself can leave you feeling that you succeeded in doing more than escaping.

      Company-provided EAP may be appropriate if it’s an option to help Gina.

  194. Purplerains*

    Could we have a post/ open thread for “bad boss comeuppances”? They don’t have to be as epic as the Waffle House incident, but that would be fun, too.

    *waits patiently with popcorn*

    1. paul*

      Waffle House incident?

      I want some hashbrowns now, scattered smothered and covered. With a patty melt.

    2. Starley*

      *hops from foot to foot* Please oh please oh please oh please…. I have a story I’m dying to tell.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I don’t have anything really exciting to add, but I had a very micromanagy boss at my last university. She was all about appearances and made really ridiculous rules (like we were not allowed to “rush out the door” at 5pm, we had to linger at our desks for a few minutes to make her feel like we loved being at our job…). She was very difficult to work for but considered herself just the BEST boss. Shortly before I left, she hired a woman who was way too similar to her, and they fought constantly – huge back-stabby drama ensued, the woman got fired, and Boss resigned for another school.

      I found out several years later that Boss came back to visit the department one day, and actually apologized to everyone! A lot of the same people were still there and they said it was shocking. She admitted to not being a good boss. It was pretty satisfying to hear that…but I’m also glad that she seems to have realized the effect of her actions.

      If you want to hear more ridiculous rules I’m happy to oblige… :)

    5. KK*

      THAT WAS MY BOSS’S STORY!

      I’m glad you enjoyed it. I still tell it to friends all the time. :) The whole thing is pretty outrageous, but when I get to the “and then they fired him at Waffle House” bit, the eyes start buggin.’

      1. KK*

        In case anyone was curious, other things that have been unveiled about ExBoss since he’s firing:

        -He was a closet alcoholic. He pressured one sales rep to take shots with him in his office on multiple occasions. He also disclosed to multiple people he trusted at the company that he drove drunk several times to and from work (why they didn’t report him, I’ll never know). He always had extra dress shirts and pants in his office, which I always thought was odd, but now I think it was to cover up the smell of booze.
        -He had multiple affairs (I know, it’s his personal life, but let me finish). Many sales reps said he bragged about his affairs frequently. He has been married for 35 years, has NINE kids with his wife, and was thought to be a “devout Baptist”. He was very involved in his church. No clue if the wife knows any of this.
        -He sexually harassed some of our female sales reps. Photos of one of our reps were found on his work phone. The photos were apparently taken in secret as they were photos of her butt and chest as she was walking through our office. Other female sales reps claimed they thought he would have come onto them had they not stopped it. Many were uncomfortable being alone on sales trips with him.

        And, that’s just what I know. There certainly could be a lot more that I’m unaware of.

        1. Observer*

          To be honest, if I were in any sort of position of authority, I’d be looking VERY hard at the work of anyone who didn’t report that he was driving drunk.

          As for pictures on his WORK phone, that’s just a higher level of crazy. I can see someone who thinks that it’s ok to SAY things because it’s “just their word against mine and they can’t prove I said it.” But having this stuff on your phone? A phone that WORK owns?

          The one silver lining is that it validates all the women who felt uncomfortable with him. And hopefully it will be a good lesson for management to not dismiss complaints as “over-reaction”.

  195. SL #2*

    When everyone on your team is stressed out and frustrated about external consultants and a big project due next week, and taking it out on each other… I’m guilty of it too and I’ve already bitten my tongue a few times this morning. But we’re rarely snappish with each other like this, so it’s very tense in the office right now. Really wish I didn’t volunteer to come in today when I didn’t have to.

  196. TheTurtle*

    Long time lurker, first time poster/commenter.

    I’ll try to make this as short as possible. I’ve been struggling with anxiety for 15 years or so, but I’ve only been on medication for it for about a year. As of about two months ago, I’m also seeing a therapist and saw a psychiatrist for the first time last week. He diagnosed me with panic disorder but also mentioned that he thinks I may also have mild bipolar disorder and ADHD. As a 28 year old woman, these mental health issues have manifested in my behavior through forgetfulness, inability to concentrate, and lack of motivation.

    A couple of weeks ago, in my weekly meeting with my boss, he mentioned that I “seemed stressed” and while at the time I wasn’t particularly stressed, these newfound diagnoses have me wondering if I should share with him what I’m struggling with and my plan to work on it. Would this be inappropriate? I would in somewhat of a laid-back atmosphere, but we have only worked together for about 6 months. What might be the best way to bring it up? (I’m a mental health advocate and don’t think it should be a taboo topic, but I don’t want to cath him off guard OR make it seem like I’m making excuses for slacking.)

    1. fposte*

      It’s not about the taboo, it’s about what you expect your manager to do with this information. Do you know what is is that you’re expecting? You don’t mention seeking ADA accommodation, which would be the big one. What else might you be looking for him to do here? “You seem stressed” isn’t a concern about your performance, and it’s a pretty small statement in general. Do you think he has performance concerns that somehow came out that way?

      I will also say more generally that it’s pretty common, in my experience, for people who have received a new diagnosis or started a new medication to have an impulse to tell their manager, and I don’t think the one necessitates the other. Diagnosis and treatment are legitimately huge things in our own life but they don’t really mean a lot externally–a change of *behavior* means something, but having a different name for the behavior doesn’t. (I had a colleague who cycled through about four different diagnoses; I was fine working with him throughout and it didn’t really matter what it got called.)

    2. k.k*

      I wouldn’t mention it specifically. You don’t think it should be taboo, but a lot of people still react poorly to this information. If you manager were to say something again, I’d keep it vague and say that’d I’d been dealing with a personal issue, apologize if I hadn’t seemed myself lately, and assure him that it was being handled.

      There are lots of wonderful posts in the archives where Alison has wordings for talking to your boss about health/medical/personal issues. I would suggest searching around, but here’s one to get you started:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/how-to-talk-to-your-boss-about-mental-health-issues.html

  197. Richard*

    This is a vent. I am disappointed in my new job.

    I’ve only been here little over a year and I have had 6 new bosses. I never expected this type of work to have such a volatile turn over and these people aren’t all being fired for doing a bad job. They are being fired because of internal politics regarding blame assignment. This has crushed morale in my department. And it has crushed my desire to build a working rapport with my immediate boss because really, why bother? Once something happens and the big boss needs to shift blame, he will be gone too.

    This has happened in other departments as well- blaming someone else and firing them seems to be their operational standard. There is no actual accountability. It is always someone else’s fault.

    When I was hired I gave myself permission to find another job after a year if I didn’t like this one. It isn’t necessarily that I don’t like my job but I cannot handle this environment and the uncertainty of every day. What if something happens that I get blamed for? I do not believe that I am protected from this scenario in the least.

    So now I am back to job searching, frustrated that this happened.

    1. Buu*

      Yikes that’s horrible, it’s annoying but not your fault; you couldn’t have predicted this level of dysfunction! I think when we say give it a year we usually think in case of bad commute etc Hopefully there are new jobs that weren’t around when you last looked and this annoying year will have served the purpose of getting you closer to a better job.

  198. Anxa*

    I don’t know what to call myself.

    So I recently turned down a job but am still interested in that field, as well as applying some of that background to another field.

    I had a license in that field for about 3 years, but I was poor and I couldn’t afford (okay, was too stupid to ask for money) to keep it up. I was a Registered Teapot Safety Specialist.

    My license was for a state I don’t belong to, and based on technicalities, I cannot apply it to a national license. I would be happy to pay to take the national test, but I’m not eligible until I work in a very specified way for 2 years. I have 6 months experience in the field, but only 2 would count.

    So if I am trying to apply my background (mostly educational and internship based at this point) as a plus for other fields, do you think it’s out of line to call myself a “specialist”

    I mean, I literally was a Registered Teapot Safety Specialist, just ask the State of Home State! But I feel like without the Capital Letters Abbreviation Cues it sounds pretentious and off base.

    I have thought about calling myself a Teapot Safety professional, or safety professional….but I only have 4 paid months of experience in that field. And it’s not my main line of work right now.

    The context for this is cover letters and resume summaries. In the past I labeled myself as that and referenced ‘with a background in’ or ‘demonstrated commitment to’ and other things, but I’m wondering when and how it will be appropriate to say I am a “blank.” It’s not like nursing when your common working title reflects your license title. I feel like once you’re a nurse, you’re a nurse.

    But “specialist” sounds too fancy.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Does it make sense to say “Registered Teapot Safety Specialist (Wyoming accreditation)”?

    2. ThatGirl*

      Eh, my title literally includes the word specialist, although it’s not a schmancy thing, it’s just … that’s what I specialize in. I don’t honestly think it sounds that fancy.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’d honestly just omit the resume summary completely. I do not find them to hold any meaningful value. And then I’d just reword my cover letter so that there is no sentence in which I need to describe myself with a title. Use the space on your cover letter to convey how you’re a good match for a position through past experiences and transferable skills, not through a title you’ve given yourself.

  199. Ann O.*

    I had a co-worker refuse to answer an (I think) perfectly reasonable question yesterday, and I’m just flummoxed by it. I need to upload documentation to a file management system for integration with source code files. My co-worker is responsible for the source code side of things, so IM’d him to ask him what location I should upload the documentation to. Instead of answering, he wrote back with a bizarre deflection.

    Who refuses to answer a basic question like that? It’s not like I’ve been there two years and have been annoying with basic questions. I literally only got access to the file management system this week, and he’s supposed to be the partner on the project.

    It doesn’t help that the files are managed in a Git repository, which is more complicated than any other file/content management system I’ve ever used. I read a tutorial, and it doesn’t seem hard, but it’s not a straightforward upload/check-in/check-out/download system either.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      That seems strange. Like he’s trying to hide something…like lack of documentation? That’s the only reason I’ve seen in similar situations, where someone doesn’t want me to have access/knowledge of something that I should have access to.

      1. Ann O.*

        It’s not that. I can see all the content that’s there. It’s just not clear which location is the correct location for the documentation because it’s new content, and the existing content isn’t organized in an obviously related way.

        I think he just didn’t feel like taking the 5-10 minutes from his day to talk to me that it (probably) would have taken.

  200. Erika22*

    Poll/question: If you’re moving and looking for a job in your intended city (and have a firm day of arrival, place to live, so there’s no uncertainty that you will be in this place by this date), how soon is too soon to change you location on LinkedIn and signal that you’re available to opportunities? I’m about three months out from this move, and though I’m eager to begin applying for jobs, I don’t want to start too early and turn off potential employers when they’d be more receptive to my candidacy closer to my move date. Perspectives from both past experience applying and from hiring managers welcome :)

    And happy Friday!

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      No reason not to do it now, imho. Just be crystal clear in your applications that you’re moving on 4/26/18. You should put a note in your LinkedIn profile. There’s a way to set a note that only recruiters can see if you don’t want to make it publicly known.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      3 months sounds quite acceptable to start showing your availability, as it can take that long anyways depending on the HR department and recruiting procedures. Put the date of your move yes, but most recruiters I have talked to always say 2-3 months before to start looking and put your name out.

  201. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Job Hunting Update!

    1. Got contacted by a recruiter for HappyCloudCo, where I had the two most miserable months of a contract of my life. This place consistently ranks very high (as in top 10 of 100) places to work for company culture, happiness, etc etc. What I gather is the company culture really had an emphasis on cult, the department (design) I started with was an utter dumpster fire with no clear leader or instruction, and a project manager who was really fixated on why I didn’t buy Ray-Bans. That experience aside, I feel like it would take a LOT to get back there. I was not a fan of how company culture was pushed as the solution to all problems and how they’re just like family. I asked a couple questions about how the department was structured, expressed that I’d worked there previously… and radio silence. HA! My only regret about my contact ending early (along with everyone else’s who was along for the ride) was not dumping an entire jug of gummi bears into my purse.
    2. Monday a design firm contacted me for my best interview times Thursday and Friday. I provided them promptly, waited for confirmation… and waited. Wednesday rolled around, I sent a short follow up to see if we could confirm a time or reschedule for next week at their convenience.
    3. The hilarious email shotgun of tangentially related professions I get. Better yet when they’re written so poorly that you can’t help but be even more confused.

    Nevertheless, the application wheel rolls on. I turned my thumb into a skin approximation of a hot dog roll while opening a tub of sour cream earlier this week so typing has been an utter joy. I’m really hoping this is the year that I move into a FT role. A couple came close last year and it was a bit of a mental exercise keeping myself out of the “look at you, eternal B+ student coming in 2nd place”

    I know now that I’m not putting up with anyone who requests everything as if a place is burning down around them. Lookin’ at you, HappyCloudCo, demanding my high school diploma ASAP…

  202. MarissaM*

    OK I’m gonna rephrase my earlier question a bit to make it a poll:

    who here has slept with their co-workers and how did it go???

    2. Chris*

      Yes. It blocked me from two promotions because of the fallout caused after we broke up. When he transferred to a different location I was extremely relieved. I don’t recommend it.

    4. LAI*

      Well I’ve dated a couple of coworkers and it’s been fine (as fine as any other relationship), but our work didn’t intersect at all. We also worked in separate buildings so we would never even see each other at work unless we specifically made plans to meet up. So I don’t know if that even counts because it’s kind of like we weren’t really even co-workers…

    8. Not gonna tell*

      A few times and it was always just sex on both sides so it was fine. Two of them were overlapping actually – my team lead and a co-worker.

    9. Forking Great Username*

      Yes. He turned out to be sleeping with two other women too, and telling us all the same thing to get us to keep it quiet that we were dating. I spilled the beans to the other two girls and he was suddenly sleeping with no one. He started talking trash about me to anyone who would listen. I ended up going to HR because our manager was his best friend, and he continued to let him count out my cash drawer at the end of the night and it was suddenly coming up short. Gee. Wonder why.

      HR moved him to another department, but his friend/my manager clearly blames me and the other two girls for the whole situation. I ended up calling in a favor from a former manager of mine and switching to his new location.

    10. nep*

      I have — several over the years. It was during a period when I was OK with ‘sex with good friends with whom there was a mutual attraction’. Odd to think back on that because so not the case now.
      Can’t think of any consequences it ever had, good or bad.

    12. ScarlettNZ*

      Yes, two. One I dated for almost a year and we only broke up because I moved countries (still friends but we don’t see each very often as I’m back in NZ and he now lives in the US). The second I count as one of my closest friends and see him regularly.

    13. Anonymous Coward*

      Yes, 4 over a decade with the same company. Not 100% professional, but no major fallout. 2 relationships, 1 friends-with-benefits thing, 1 one-night stand. One was promoted into a position several rungs above me in the same department, and I felt slightly awkward about getting a professional reference from them later. Another relationship did not have a happy ending, so the other person avoided me in the hallway for a year (but we never worked on the same stuff, so it didn’t affect anything else). I totally worked in the same department as a third, but we lived on opposite coasts. Having left that employer, I don’t really keep in touch anymore.

    14. Former Oilfield Trash*

      Four times in different companies and with different people, no issues whatsoever. In all cases they were peers and it was just sex for both sides. Funnily enough, one of them eventually started dating another colleague, whom they married, and that didn’t turn out so fine.

  203. Knit Picker*

    I’m not sure this warrants a letter of its own, but I would appreciate an “opinion of the masses.” I am a copywriter who was asked to help my company’s HR department with some verbiage when they updated the employee handbook. I hadn’t even noticed that they’d traded one of my sentences for their own wording until the HR manager who enlisted my help pointed it out so that I wouldn’t be surprised, she said. “What you wrote was fine,” she told me, “but it didn’t sound quite professional enough.”

    Here is the exact phrasing I used:
    It is up to each employee to submit his request in writing.

    Now the revised version she used:
    It is the responsibility of each employee to submit his request in writing.

    Literally the ONLY change was from “up to” to “responsibility.” Maybe I am taking this too personally because writing is my craft, but I think that’s splitting hairs for nothing. Please, others, weigh in. Is one of these sentences significantly more or less professional than the other??

    1. ThatGirl*

      Well, if I were editing it, I’d say “his or her” or “It is the employee’s responsibility to submit requests in writing” but that’s not what you asked.

      Yes, honestly, I do think “the responsibility” sounds a bit more professional.

      1. nep*

        This is what jumped out at me — I’d have made the his or her change.
        I do agree that the ‘responsibility’ version sounds more formal. Nothing really wrong with ‘up to’ — just the other strikes as stronger for this context.

        1. nep*

          (Or perhaps ‘his or her’ is not best practice anymore? Should it be ‘their’? — The editor in me still getting used to the idea of singular ‘their’.)

          1. nonegiven*

            I like ThatGirl’s “It is the employee’s responsibility to submit requests in writing” because there is no need for the pronoun.

    2. fposte*

      In this case, I agree with them. “Up” is more colloquial and “responsibility” is weightier. I write some of my professional materials pretty chattily, but in any archive-level document I would go for the “responsibility” version.

      Sorry! Probably I disagree with them on other stuff :-).

    3. Francesca*

      I think their wording sounds more professional and polished. “Up to” is rather colloquial and I wouldn’t use it in documentation.

    4. Chris*

      Responsibility makes it sound more authoritative and (to me) holds the person accountable without doubt.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      “Up to each employee” makes it sound like a choice. But either way I think it’s probably not worth taking this so personally – I am actually surprised they pointed it out at all.

    6. Undine*

      Both are correct, but ultimately, they want a document that sounds the way they want it to sound. So they prefer “the responsibility”, which is more formal. Since handbooks are something that people manage to, and point to when there are performance problems, formality makes sense. Also, that’s their style preference. They’re paying, they can have what they want.

    7. Shoe*

      “Responsibility” is clearer. “Up to” makes it sound like an employee can, if he wants, submit it in writing. “Responsibility” makes it sound like the employee should definitely submit it in writing, and if he doesn’t, the company can’t be blamed.

    8. Enough*

      Agree that responsibility is better then up to. I had a partner at my first job change something professional sounding to make it sound more legal. We were engineers not lawyers.

  204. Nervous Norvus*

    I’m getting back into a relatively small field with a job offer after some time unemployed. I’ve had issues with depression (recently diagnosed) and possibly anxiety (undiagnosed but addresses reactions and experiences depression doesn’t seem to cover) for a good chunk of my life. A couple big problems for me are avoidance and over-reading/-reacting to people, and that really hurt me in my last job (not to the point of damaging references, and I left due to a family move, but still setting off some of the most spectacular internal implosions of guilt). So while unemployed, I’ve been trying to circulate more by volunteering, doing odd jobs, agreeing to try new social settings more often, etc. – anything to get me used to people in general, which has been helpful in its own way and which I couldn’t have done a few years ago.

    But some things with the new job have me more nervous than just general new job anxiety. One is the field is small enough that people at the new position know other people I’ve worked with or under, or institutions I’ve attended or worked for, and a couple of interviewers wanted to small-talk a bit about those things when I visited. I’ve had the experience of bosses who want to do that – in one case, we had our college in common and there was a lot of wanting to compare notes or maybe reminisce happily during downtime. While I tried to pull out good related experiences or at least smile-and-nod through these talks, I sometimes faltered on answers for pretty standard questions like, “What did you think of this dorm? Did you do this big event?” and the like – I was so on miserable autopilot then that I avoided most social events or really getting to know anything or anyone, and just have… holes instead of general memories like the campus layout, which building was what, names of classmates and professors, and so on. My mental health and ability to self-care and self-manage have improved but only very gradually and with occasional setbacks over the years at different places, and I’m worried of being stymied in a similar fashion. Are there good fallbacks when you just don’t have anything positive at the ready to share about an experience?

    The other is I’m trying to get back into networking. The easiest way right now is LinkedIn. The position has a title that is lower than where I generally “should be” at this point with my schooling and experience, and I’ve had a reference and a couple interviewers tell me I’m technically overqualified. I’m nervous jumping back into any form of social media when I see my peers who graduated with or after me with steady jobs and moving into more senior positions, or any of my teachers who would likely wonder in the same way about my title, even though I personally feel like this offer is a good match for me right now. Has anyone had similar experiences while getting back into the networking game? How do you keep from feeling overwhelmed?

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. Shoe*

      Honestly, you don’t owe anyone a positive experience. Sure, it greases the wheels of social interaction, but sometimes I really struggle with this too (for me the trigger is talk about family–my family is toxic and abusive so NO, I did NOT have a nice Christmas, no I am not looking forward to seeing my family, etc. etc.).

      I would have a few neutral-but-boring scripts at hand. For example, “I don’t know, I wasn’t really into X” when talking about Big Event or Activity in college. Or maybe “I was more of a homebody.” Or even just plain, “Hm, I don’t even remember that!” You don’t need to launch into a description of all the Reasons why, but you don’t have to pretend to have enjoyed something you didn’t or remember something you don’t.

      1. Enough*

        Unless your college was so small (hundreds) not knowing is acceptable. My daughter is at a college with 2000 students and even she knows little about a lot. She just is not into gossip and stays busy with classes and working.

  205. Liane*

    Got a bit of good news. Yesterday I had an interview for a position at a library branch. Today, a friend I’ve done some projects with texts me: “I think your interview went well. The library just called me for a reference.” (Yay!!)
    I am supposed to hear back one way or another next week so hopefully I can post “I have a job!” next Friday

  206. Me--Blergh*

    I’m trying to use experience I’ve gained as an admin to break out of the admin pool. I’ll let you all know when that actually happens, since I’ve seen no evidence that it will, probably due to my lack of technical experience. I sought additional experience that directly applied to my job (and would have helped) at Exjob, but I just hit a wall every time. I guess that wasn’t such a good job after all. :P

    I’m very tired of answering the question “What do you do?” because I keep having to explain the whole dyscalculia thing to people who can’t comprehend that employers don’t want someone who would struggle to do essential functions of a job — like say, project management — such as budgeting. So I just don’t talk about it with people anymore. I feel this cuts down on networking opportunities, but what else can I do. I can’t help it that I have specific requirements that only seem to fit very low-income jobs. :\

    I”m also tired of saying “I’m an admin” because I do not want to be an admin anymore.

  207. moreforthat*

    For freelance proofreaders/copyeditors in book publishing: how did you guys get in? Just from people you know in the industry? I’m a production editor at a mid-size publishing house, and I’ve freelanced for a former co-worker and have told her that I’d be interested in continuing to freelance for her and her colleagues, but am not sure how to expand. Is this a case where it would be okay to cold-email managing editors of other publishing houses and ask if they’re in need of freelancers, or is that really frowned upon?

    3. Lore*

      Yes, cold emails are totally fine, for my (division of a large) publisher anyway. We love having other production editors as freelancers because they know how the process works. Send your resume, send a list of recent projects (or types of projects; it’s super-helpful to know, for example, that you’ve recently done science fiction novels published by a major house, or that you’ve done nonfiction titles with extensive backmatter), and if you’re comfortable doing so, send references, ideally other production editors at trade publishing houses.

      If you contact my managing editor or copy chief, you will in fact get passed on directly to me, as I’m the person who sends out our copy editing and proofreading tests (or decides that someone has enough experience and solid enough references that we don’t need them). The only thing I can add is that it does require a little patience; except for in very special circumstances, like I need a Russian-reading proofreader pronto, adding new freelancers to our pool is a nice but not urgent task, so I generally only get around to reviewing the returned tests once every few weeks.

      (I don’t want to out myself or my bosses here by name, but I’m the production editor working on the Ask a Manager book, so I’m delighted to help out the community! You will find me if you search “editor writer proofreader copy editor” on LinkedIn, I think, and you’re welcome to contact me directly.)

  208. Elizabeth West*

    For anyone who’s seen The Shape of Water (not to spoil so skip past if you haven’t and if you haven’t, omg do see it because it’s marvelous):

    I know it’s set in the early 1960s, when shitty sexist workplaces were the norm, but Strickland (Michael Shannon) is one of the most horrible bosses ever. I mean, really. There was one scene where I was not the only audience member who made involuntary noises of disgust.

    It makes me sad to think that in many ways, we haven’t moved much beyond having to deal with that sort of behavior.

  209. oh employment*

    How did you manage a potential multiple job offers situation?

    Company A and I are in the last stage of the process. It’s my second choice.

    Company B and I are in the early stages of the process. It’s my first choice. It’s a unique role that fits my really random background and the recruiter said it seems like it is “right up my alley,” so I think I have a good chance.

    How do I handle it if Company A comes through first?

    1. Shoe*

      Depending on how early in the process with company B (like, at least you have to have interviewed once!), I think you tell company B that you really would like to work for them as a first choice, and ask if there’s anything they can do to speed up their process because you have another offer.

    2. Sam Foster*

      Bird in the hand and all that…take the job if they offer it. Then decide whether to keep pursuing Job B and what you’ll do if Job B offers.

  210. FloweryDrapes*

    I have a dilemma!

    I’m about 4 months into a new job – the work is ok and my colleagues are great (as in I don’t hate going to work every day!) but I have a hellish commute of over an hour each way and it’s really getting me down. This is the first job I’ve had since looking after my mom until she passed.

    I interviewed for and have been offered a 4 day week job much much closer to home – less money for less hours and in a smaller environment. But I’m torn for two reasons – 1. I love the environment at my current job and my colleagues, and 2. I have no idea how to handle an exit at short notice (new job wants me to start next week)

    So far I’ve booked 4 days vacation for next week so I can try out the new job and see how I feel about it. Any tips for deciding if it’s for me and if so on negotiating a speedy exit from my current commute-filled role?

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Just wondering if you have a plan for that.

        I think you can’t stay for nice people if you’re unhappy and you know it.

        1. FloweryDrapes*

          The new job would have been an automatic ‘yes!!!!!’ except they were a bit funny with me about how the hours would be set up – the job ad said ‘x’ number of hours which aren’t full time hours, and I would be seeking to do them over 4 days, rather than say 6 days with less hours each day. When they offered me the job I asked how they envisaged the hours being structured and they became very vague. I interjected that I was looking to do them over 4 days and I was met with….more vagueness. They’ve reluctantly agreed to the 4 days but I’m not sure how this would play out longer term. So, I figured I would try the new job for 4 days and see if it’s a good fit for me in terms of duties, scheduling, environment etc.

          I know this is in bad faith (and as a people manager I wouldn’t recommend it!) but I definitely don’t want to jump from the frying pan to the fire. Going back to work after being out on carer’s leave for over a year has been a huge change for me and one I’m struggling with working full-time hours plus a 2 hour commute every day. The hope with the new role would be to give me more balance while I resolve some other personal stuff I have going on (health related etc.) and if the flexibility isn’t there then I might swell stay at my old job.

          As for how I would handle the exit…the best way I could.

    3. Kathenus*

      May be too late for you to see this, but second the comment to be cautious with this. If it was me I’d decide – take the new job or stay where I am. Taking another job while still employed is not a good idea, in my opinion, and worst case scenario you could end up without either if it went badly. If you want the new job, let them know that you would like to give a professional two week notice to your current job, just as you would do for them if you ever had to leave. If they are pushing you to give less notice than that it’s at least a yellow flag to me for their level of professionalism. Up to you of course, but I’d suggest making a choice now, and not trying to do both.

  211. Pet peeves*

    What do your coworkers do that annoys you?

    I hate it when people hum or snap their fingers or tap their fingers on my cube wall as they walk by.

    1. Just Peachy*

      I used to work for a company where the woman on the other side of my cube (whom I didn’t know, she was on a different team), would hum CONSTANTLY. Like, 45 minutes of every hour she was humming. It was so frustrating.

    2. Rockhopper*

      There are a couple of people who call out “Knock, knock!” loudly when they come into our cubicle area. Each area has 4 cubicles, so they interrupt the work of 4 people when they are coming to talk to only 1.

      1. nep*

        Oh how I hate whistling. I get it at home. I’m glad none of my colleagues do it. A few whistlers? I’m so sorry, Temperance.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I hate it when people comment on my food. There’s only a couple people around here that do this, but it really grates on me. I eat a lot normally throughout the day, and now that I’m pregnant, I’m eating pretty much all the time. I’m in a cubicle so pretty much every time they see me it’s a “Oh that looks good!” “Eating healthy I see!” drive-by.

    5. Stormy*

      There was a guy who used to drag his giant class ring along the fuzzy cube wall as he walked by. It made the grossest scraping/ripping noise, and the sharp points on the ring tore up the fabric so it looked like hell after a while. Luckily, he transferred to a traveling job and went TF away.

    6. KR*

      My coworker has an extremely loud phone voice (practically shouting) and despite receiving a ton of phone calls a day (and most of them personal) he has his ringer set on high and has it set to the type of ringer that says who is calling in a slow, robotic voice. I so wish he would turn his phone on vibrate and duck into the break room for phone calls.

    7. Lcsa99*

      I have a couple coworkers that walk around the office with clicky pens, clicking then constantly as they walk.

  212. Mostly Anonymous Business Student*

    I’m currently taking a class on “professional skills” that’s required by my business school. We had our first class meeting this past week. When calling the roll, the professor intentionally butchered several people’s names so that they would correct him. He said that in our future jobs, we’ll have to “stand up for ourselves” if our managers mispronounce our names, so we should get used to doing it now.

    My concern is that this served to single out the international and minority students in the class on the first day. For instance, he made one girl repeat her surname three times until he got the vowel right — it happened to be a vowel that’s commonplace in English, but those dang furrin names are just so hard, you know? \sarc

    To be fair, he did also do things like ask someone “Do you go by Matthew, or Matt?” and if the student said “Either is fine,” he’d say “It’s *your* name, man! Take a stand!” But still, being called Matthew versus Matt isn’t exactly something people get bullied about elsewhere in life, while the pronunciation of a “foreign” name…kinda is.

    Anyway, what do people think? Necessary learning opportunity, or racist microaggression?

    (Not that I think I’ll do anything about it either way. But my first impression of him was definitely “this guy is an insensitive glassbowl”, and if I was totally wrong to get that impression, then I want to do my best to override it in my mind. On the other hand, he did also tell us never to use contractions in professional emails, so as an avid reader of AAM, I already have one thing I don’t trust him about…)

    1. Just Peachy*

      While I think his little project was silly, I think you may be jumping to conclusions to assume that it’s a racist thing. Tone deaf? Maybe. However, I would wait and see if there’s a pattern of behavior like this before assuming anything.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah I’ve literally never known anyone who got bullied cosbof having a foreign name. An I went to school with a foreign student whose name sounded like a sexual term in English, so it would have been very easy to make a joke about it.

        Maybe you just happen to know a lot of racists but that’s definitely not a universal thing.

        1. Thlayli*

          Although according to what I see online, America is one of the most racist countries in the world, so people probably do get bullied for that. Which is really weird and very sad.

        2. Femme d'Afrique*

          This definitely has not been my experience. I brace myself every time I leave the continent because of it. I’m not sure it always stems from racism: sometimes it’s people thinking they’re being cute or funny (like the people who say, “that’s too difficult, can I call you “Mindy” instead?”) and sometimes it’s xenophobia and, yup, sometimes it’s just plain old racism (why else say my name followed by ape-like grunts?).

          I don’t think Mostly Anonymous Business Student is wrong to be worried about how this can come across to people who are bombarded with “otherness” all the time.

    2. Nacho*

      Necessary learning opportunity ABOUT racist microaggressions? I think he’s right that the Xuan’s of the world are going to need to get used to people not knowing that the X is silent, and that the Johns of the world don’t really need this lesson, but maybe there was a better way to go about it?

    3. Future Analyst*

      Neither? He just sounds like a tool, who has no business teaching a “professional skills” course.

    4. Graciosa*

      I’m actually in favor of people standing up for themselves by expecting others at work to correctly pronounce their names. Yes, sometimes it takes a little practice, but I attribute that scenario to the ignorance of the person trying unsuccessfully to learn the name rather than a flaw in the name.

      Is there something else that made you think this was inappropriately targeted? I’m not sure I’m impressed with the teaching so far, but that doesn’t mean I would write him off entirely right now.

      1. zora*

        I think there’s a difference between yelling at people to “Stand up for themselves!!!” and explaining how to ask questions or correct people in a professional manner when you are new to the work world. This sounds like a bullying way to “teach” this, and the fact that he yelled more at non-European names than at others is pretty damn racist.

        1. Graciosa*

          Well, I would agree that it was a poor teaching method, but I’m not sure I see that he “yelled more at non-European names” from what was provided. I do see that he had a problem with a common vowel in one name, but I can attribute that to poor language skills on his part rather than malice given the fact that he also yelled at Matt / Matthew.

          I once asked a reliable source at another company if X was done deliberately in a way that hurt us, and he assured me – credibly – when he apologized that the particular impact was unintentional, and suggesting that I “should never assume something was the result of bad intentions when it’s probably the result of incompetence.”

          This teacher may turn out to be racist, but so far I’m seeing incompetence.

          1. zora*

            The action he took had the *result* of being racist, the intent of the teacher before he said it is irrelevant. That’s how racism works. But this is probably derailing to get too much into it.

          2. Mostly Anonymous Business Student*

            Zora’s point is what I was thinking at the time. I couldn’t tell what his intentions were, and to some extent it doesn’t even matter. It had the effect of making people uncomfortable, some of which was in a racialized way. :/

    5. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think he sounds like a jerk…whatever the underlying intentions. I think it’s a good thing to correct your name if someone is mispronouncing it, but what if Matt really doesn’t care about Matt or Matthew? I don’t think Matt’s lack of preference is a failure to stand up for himself.

      However I dislike any kind of “life skills” classes like this and find that most of them are taught by people who are insensitive glassbowls who like to hear themselves talk, so I’m a bit biased…

    6. fposte*

      In addition to what other people are saying, it’s interesting to me that he doesn’t seem to allow for the possibility that some people don’t give a damn. “Either is fine” *is* a stand.

    8. Ravi*

      He is such a jerk first wanting to learn how to say people’s name correctly. He should always get it perfect the first time. He’s so awful for needing more than one try. As a person with a long Indian name who doesn’t live in India I hate it when people make an effort to learn the correct pronunciation or what my nickname is. I love when other people tell me what is a microaggression against me. He should be fired for sure. How horrible for the people whose names he wanted to learn.

      1. zora*

        This poster said he “Intentionally butchered people’s names” as a ‘lesson’ in how to speak up for themselves. That’s a pretty gross way to ‘teach’. It would normally be done as “How do you pronounce that? Ok, thank you.”

      2. Mostly Anonymous Business Student*

        So, the reason why I chose an English name to go by several years ago (in college) is because I don’t like having my name being made a big deal of every single time I first meet someone. I hate how the usual business of the conversation stops and my name becomes the new topic of discussion. So I go exclusively by my English name socially, and academically whenever I can.

        I admit that my discomfort in this case stemmed from thinking that most other people would feel like I did. He was a little weird with me, but not nearly as weird as he was with a few other people.

        I will say he did at least one good thing, by asking every student (no matter what their name was) if there was a name they preferred to go by. So I gave him my English name. Usually if a prof doesn’t do this, I end up going by LegalName in their class — most profs who don’t ask don’t remember my English name if I’m the one who brings it up.

        But I’m a bit surprised. It makes sense that you’re happy when people get your name right, but you really wouldn’t prefer that they rehearse it on their own time, instead of right there in front of everyone?

    9. Gerta*

      “For instance, he made one girl repeat her surname three times until he got the vowel right”

      Everyone should get every name perfect the first time.

      1. zora*

        We’re supposed to take posters at their word here, the poster makes it clear that the impression they got was that he was doing this “making her repeat” thing rudely and this guy was being a jerk. There’s no need to get snarky with the poster if you disagree.

  213. Joanne*

    Is it normal for junior positions to not get any performance plans or let them know how they’re doing in new positions? I was recently let go because “my work isn’t what the client was looking for” – except I met with my manager once in November/December to discuss any questions I may have and then was let go in January because the prime contracting company found a more senior tech writer.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      It’s not normal at companies with good managers…this sounds like you just had crappy management.

      1. Joanne*

        I was discussing this with another former coworker, and they said a lot of it was the agency division not knowing what they wanted. I met with the project manager once a week when they were in the office for any questions but was predominantly done via email.
        I’m worried that it’ll look bad on my resume since I was only there for a short amount of time before they let me go but it was my first position after I graduated college.

  214. rosiebyanyothername*

    I’m in a call center role and sometimes struggle with not taking it personally when customers/clients complain. I got totally steamrolled by a client on the phone today, called names, it was a whole mess. I got kind of teary in the office and I feel so embarrassed! Does anyone have advice?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I worked in retail for years. I eventually learned to tune it out. But, before that, I would just remind myself that person was a jerk. They went to the next store down and ripped into that person. Then maybe drove to the grocery store and tore that clerk a new one. Once you can get into the mindset of “it’s not you, it’s them” it’ll be much easier to not take it quite so personally.

      In the meantime? Copious amounts of chocolate.

    2. Nacho*

      I recommend becoming sadistic and taking pleasure in their obvious pain (because they’re assholes that deserve it). Even if they’re yelling at you, remember that you still have power over them, and that they need you more than you need them. Talk to your boss about under what conditions you would be allowed to disconnect a call. In my call center, that’s an option we have if they start swearing at us or become aggressive. Make sure to take as much pleasure as possible in disconnecting them, and always end the call with a “have a nice day”.

      If sadism doesn’t work for you, then just kind of zone out and take an obvious disinterest in their issue. Take deep breaths, squeeze a stress ball, meditate, just kind of remove yourself from the call. You can take a couple of minutes after especially bad calls to recenter yourself, but don’t let it show in-call that you’re stressed, because assholes can smell fear, and they’ll pounce on it.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I used to work in tech support, and when students started laying into me, I discovered it was mostly because they were afraid – afraid of learning new technology, afraid of failing their courses, afraid of not being able to do the work necessary for college. I would try to calm them down as much as I could, but even if that didn’t work, I’d just remind myself that most of them were reacting out of fear and anxiety, and it wasn’t about me.

      For professors, it was much of the same thing! But everyone now and then you just get a jerk who likes to ruin everyone’s day. I tried to be amused by it. When I was talking with them, I’d be SUPER PROFESSIONAL and then chuckle to myself at how that just made them angrier. It’s like they want to get a rise out of you. So I tried to be a stone cold statue and laugh internally at their rage.

    4. Secretary*

      I’ve so been there. Even when you’re used to it it can still be rattling. Here are some things I suggest that helped me a lot:
      -Get clear with your boss on how to handle people who go off like that. Are you allowed to hang up? Hang up after a warning? What does your boss suggest?
      -If you have trouble being assertive, have a script in your drawer you can pull out and read off of.
      -After the call, talk about it like they’re the jerk/weirdo. I liked to turn to my coworker between calls and go, “ohmygosh Mr Yellypants really needs to get his life together.” Or even saying to yourself in a Stephanie Tanner voice “How Rude!” can lighten the mood and make you feel better.
      -If they’re complaining but not yelling, and it’s aggressive but doesn’t cross the line, I take a lot of notes and listen to them and affirm what they said. My favorite thing I say (after they’ve talked themself to a calm place) is “Oh my goodness. If I was in your shoes I would feel that way too! I am so sorry you’re having to experience this. I wish I was authorized to do better, but in order for me to issue a refund for the defective teapot, I HAVE to know it’s model number. Would you be willing to let me tell you where you can find it so I can do that for you?”
      -Get really good at answering the phone in a friendly way (meaning tone of voice). This disarms them and will actually help in the long run.

    5. Artemesia*

      There should be a policy in place that when abuse occurs, the abuser should be disconnected ‘I’m sorry sir, I am required to end calls that become abusive’ and then hang up. No boss or company should require people to put up with that. Has your supervisor told you how to handle name callers?

    6. Triple Anon*

      I eventually stopped taking it personally. Now when that happens, I think of myself as a therapist and the customer as the client. I calmly ask key questions and try to resolve the situation.

  215. Madame X*

    Just wrapped up my first week at my new job!
    I left an academic postdoc last November after my professor informed me that would not be enough funding for the rest academic year and I only had a month to and half find a new position. I had already been applying to a few positions but I kicked my job search into high gear after finding out the news. I interviewed for my current position in December, and received an offer in early January. I’m really happy with the company I’m with. The work is my field of interest and my co-workers have been incredibly nice and helpful.

  216. MissingArizona*

    This will likely get buried, but here it goes…

    For about 5 years I worked at a place that did drug testing and DNA testing, we contracted through larger companies and were basically facilitators. I learned a lot in my time there. My main job was AP/AR, but I also did all mobile DNA sample collections. I really like the DNA testing side of the business, and I tried for years to get the owner to let me expand on it, but our “bread and butter” was drug testing.

    I left that job after not being able to deal with the owners toxicity, but I never lost interest in the DNA testing. Now I’m moving to an area without a collection site for about 100 miles, and I’ll be on a military base that mostly has young airmen in training. I have an idea to start my own mobile collection business, I can contract through a federal processing lab, getting certified is only $300, and an LLC is relatively inexpensive to obtain. I have a name, we have the income so I can actually build something, and being childfree, I have the time.

    There is practically no overhead, the federal lab provides all collection material, people pay at the time of collection, my car is paid off, my husband has a decent income, I ran the numbers and I’d need about 5 sales a week to equal a standard job… This seems like an ideal situation, but I’m nervous, starting a business seems terrifying, but I know I don’t want a boss or co-workers, or the stress of my income/future in someone else’s hands.

    Should I do this? Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Shoe*

      I’ve never had my own business, so maybe take this with a grain of salt. But my thought is–how do you feel about doing the non-DNA testing side of the business? The marketing, the books, all the other stuff you need in order to actually be able to do the thing that interests you–the DNA testing. I think the biggest factor in whether or not you should do it lies in your skill set in those areas. I know a lot of people, even freelancers, fail because they liked doing *the thing* but not all the other things that allow them to do that thing. So, that’s just something I’d think hard about.

      1. MissingArizona*

        That’s the easy part. I’ve done the books for a few companies on the last 10 years, I’d need help with tax stuff but I can pay for that. Advertising is fairly straightforward, I need business cards, flyers, and to make myself known, since I’ll basically be the “only game in town”, it shouldn’t take too much effort, especially being affiliated with the military means I can advertise on all the base pages. The lab that I contract through would put me on their national database, which means they’ll direct people that search in my area to me, and I can set up collections for people not in my area also. Stack that with over a decade in customer service, I can deal with practically anyone.

    2. tab*

      See if there’s an Small Business Development Center (SBDC) office near you. You can meet with an advisor (for free!) and they will go over the numbers and help you make a business plan. When I started my business, I met with an advisor every month. I found it very helpful. I love working for myself. I hope it works for you too.

  217. J Commenter*

    I am exhausted by a business culture where you have to have a ready suggested solution to a problem before you are allowed to point out that the problem exists. I feel what started out solid career-advancing advice “make yourself valuable by presenting a solution to a problem that you’ve encountered” has evolved into a culture where it’s impossible to ask for help or discuss a pressing issue.

    1. Artemesia*

      Can you push back? ‘I think we need to discuss a significant problem with the llama breeding protocols and I don’t have a solution to offer because it is a difficult problem without an easy and obvious solution. I think we need to put our heads together and come up with a strategy to figure out why our llama population has fallen off so drastically.’

  218. Shoe*

    This is more of a rant than anything, but advice is welcome.

    I work in an industry undergoing major technological change. Let’s say I work in Teapot design, and almost all teapots now have leak prevention technology.

    My department previously only worked tangentially with leak prevention technology, and we didn’t have a great understanding of it–just knew it existed, and if leaks happened, we would flag it. Now, though, leak prevention technology is a major component of teapot design.

    My boss, while embracing leak prevention technology, is insistent that us, her four direct reports, the only four designers in the company, don’t need to actually learn or understand leak prevention technology. She thinks this because we outsource that part of design, and also we have a Ceramics Technology group that handles all kinds of technology stuff (we work for a company that makes both coffee- and teapots, but I am in teapots). The thing is, because leak prevention technology is now so important, along with a number of other technologies, that department is overwhelmed. In addition, it is our job, as designers, to make sure that leak prevention technology is a) working properly and b) coexists with the rest of the design.

    In short, I think that we, the teapot designers, should really just learn leak prevention technology. If only to understand what we are doing and be able to do it well.

    So I went out and did just that. And I’m really good at it. And I want to help out with leak prevention technology stuff that comes up in my group.

    But my boss is really reluctant to require that we all go out and learn this new skill. And as such, she is reluctant to allow me to take on any leak prevention responsibilities, in spite of my asking for them, showing interest in them, and getting an endorsement from the Ceramics Technology group that they could really use my help, and I am knowledgeable enough to help out in a lot of cases (not all cases–they are still the experts). She says she does not want my group, as a whole, to take this on, but I think a bit part of it is that I am one of the junior designers, and she does not feel comfortable giving more complicated responsibilities to a junior designer and not the senior designers, and doesn’t want to ask the senior designers to learn something new.

    I feel that my boss is really doing us a disservice by not asking us to at least try to learn this. Not only do I feel she is squandering resources in front of her (I could be a resource!), she is making it so that we will all be out of jobs in a few years, when all teapot designers are going to really be expected to know leak prevention technology, and it will be the main part of teapot design. If we don’t learn this and incorporate it into our department, our department will become obsolete, and it will be impossible to find jobs as teapot designers elsewhere because we weren’t encouraged or even allowed to get practical experience in leak prevention technology, which every other firm will require. In fact, they pretty much already do, which is why I can’t get myself hired elsewhere.

    What do I do? I’ve been trying to butt in on as many leak prevention technology tasks as I can, and I learned this stuff on my own. But without my boss’s support, I can’t move forward with it very far. It is so frustrating!

    1. Observer*

      Perhaps you could point out that if the group CAN’T handle this part of the design, then the group / company is vulnerable. You never want to be totally dependent on an outside service for a core component of you one of you products (as opposed to basic maintenance tasks.) And even internally shunting the job to a different department that focuses elsewhere is going to leave you vulnerable to sub-optimal designs because they are looking at it froma different lens.

      If that works, how bad would it be to go over her head?

  219. Anonymous Ampersand*

    I discovered this week that I’m the lowest graded member of staff in my directorate. There are me and two others on my grade but I’ve been there the shortest so I get paid least. I thought there were others on my grade but apparently not.

    I’m 41 years old. I feel like such a bloody failure.

    1. Graciosa*

      I’m not sure I would jump to failure quite this fast.

      Are you feeling trapped in a dead-end job where you are doomed to toil forever on a pittance? It’s possible to be the most junior (and lowest paid) member of a team without that being the case.

      Sometimes it actually means the opposite – a position is normally filled by Rank, but Lower Rank Individual is just so fantastic that they make an exception and give him the responsibility! Government being what it is, he may not be easily bumped up to Rank, but those in the know are well aware that this is a sign that Lower Rank Individual is one to watch!

      You could genuinely be underpaid or underappreciated, but that does not mean you’re a failure. It just means that you may have some work to do to get where you want to go. The best response to not liking where you are is to figure out where you want to go, how to get there, and start moving.

      Lots of sympathy, and sorry you’re feeling this way –

    2. Lana Kane*

      I’m 42 years old. For the first time in my 20+ years of working, I’ve been promoted.

      At least part of that is on me. I thought I wanted to forgo building a career so I could have more time to devote to family, so I stayed at the same telecommuting job for a really long time because I’d convinced myself that it was for the best. When my husband started pushing me to get a job back in the office because it was clear I was miserable, I knew I couldn’t pretend anymore. I went back in the office and went for a department within my organization that I knew had opportunities for growth. It was yet another lateral move.

      I am excited right now, but I won’t lie – I also have felt like a failure because I’m almost 43 and by all accounts I should be further along in my career: I should have already been promoted at least once, right? I know I’m great at what I do, but somehow I’m still a failure, right? But really, whose accounts are those? Yeah, I could have been further along, but I did other things with my life as well. I mean, I even had my kid later than most. But while I’ve been starting late, I’m also starting with way more confidence and self-awareness than if I had started earlier in life.

      Don’t judge yourself based on goalposts you had no part in even setting. Start thinking about what you want your path to be, and start planning on how to make your next move or two. I’m willing to bet that will help improve your outlook tremendously. You got this!

  220. Nerd patrol*

    My husband has a lot of insecurities and does not want me to have friends of the opposite gender. I go back and forth on this being a:borderline abusive and controlling or b: something I should accept as a loving spouse.
    It wouldn’t be so hard if I had a few good girlfriends, but I’ve never been one for hanging out with the girls and always found I get along best with guys. It’s been particularly difficult because I have a make friend I’d like to hang out with, we get along well, and I’m basically not allowed to talk to him. Sadly, I think he and my husband would get along well, but husband wants nothing to do with him.

    1. H.C.*

      Definitely controlling and possibly abusive, and definitely not something acceptable in a loving spouse. If he has insecurities about you interacting with the opposite gender, that’s an issue he needs to deal with (on his own, with a therapist or couples counseling.)

      Regarding your male friend, your husband doesn’t have to get along with him, but he doesn’t get to tell you to not talk to or hang out with him either.

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m sorry to say that I agree that this is abusive and controlling, and I’m really sorry you’re feeling that way. You should not have to accept prohibitions on genuine friendships to be considered a “loving spouse.”

      Perhaps you could write in to the weekend thread tomorrow for suggestions and support? This thread is really for work items, but tomorrow’s will be for anything else. It sounds like you could use advice and support.

      With sympathy –

    3. Nelly*

      I don’t know about his behaviour but maybe he’ll feel better if you hang out with a (small?) group of your friends instead of one-on-one? You might already do that, of course. But I have no experience in this area, I have never had a boyfriend and it’s only within the last couple of years I’ve been close-ish friends with members of the opposite sex.

    4. Artemesia*

      “not allowed” is simply not a phrase that should ever be part of a marriage. Yes there are somethings that you as a couple commit to and for most that includes fidelity, but having friends you choose, socializing with whom you please is fundamental to being a grown up. You are not his possession and being a loving spouse does not mean submitting to whatever irrational control freak thing he wants to impose. This would be a deal breaker for me, not for the specific now but for all it means about his view of the appropriate relationship between two equal partners. You have to decide what your life should look like, but I’d suggest you getting therapy and then insisting that the two of you do, perhaps with some guidance from your own therapist about how to proceed.

  221. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment/underemployment check-in thread. How’s it going for those continuing to work towards getting back into the workplace?

    I don’t have any updates this week re: job hunt. Someone with resume experience did offer to look at my resume and give me tips, so that’s a plus.

    1. Truffles*

      Best of luck to you! I’m also looking. It’s been 3.5 weeks and I’ve sent out 28 applications. Just got my 3rd rejection. I keep reminding myself to be patient. After all, all we need is one offer to work out!

      1. AnonAndOn*

        “After all, all we need is one offer to work out!”

        Yes! All we need is one indeed. Good luck to you too.

  222. Custom Teapot Maker*

    So after owning my own custom teapot making business for the last 20 years, I’m coming to the conclusion that I need to find a paying job elsewhere and close down. Our business was hit by the housing crisis 10 years ago and has really just been limping along since. Since I’m only 60, I need to work for the next 7-10 years. Or more. My former career was in IT and I can’t return to that since my knowledge is so outdated.

    I’m trying to figure out several things and some suggestions from people would be awesome and I would be ever so grateful.

    What do I include on a resume? Everything I do and am responsible for, or do I filter somehow? How far back do I go on a resume? My previous employers were 20-35 years ago. With mergers and closures, there is no way for anyone to confirm anything from back then.

    How do I get over my concern that managers won’t hire a formerly self-employed person? I’ve heard there is some thought that we won’t take direction.

    I’m also concerned that people will think a slowly dying business is indicative of my failing business ability although I believe this has been beyond my control.

    Ugh. I hate this.

    1. Graciosa*

      What you put on a resume depends on what will make the strongest case for why you’re really well suited for the position for which you’re applying.

      If you’re applying for non-managerial IT, you don’t spend precious space on your resume explaining how you handled HR, facilities, or sales issues.

      I tend to drop or consolidate anything outside the last ten years (your time frame may vary because of your business) into one line (“Previous employment with Silver Teapots, Copper Teapots, and Industrial Spout Design”).

      Your resume is not your application – it’s a marketing document. Sometimes you have to fill out an application and disclose employers for a background check, but it generally doesn’t go back more than 7-10 years outside of positions with security issues (government clearance type security issues, not commercial ones). Be totally truthful and provide complete information on applications, but that is not your resume.

      Finally, do not think of yourself as failing – you didn’t- or present it that way. You are just moving into another stage of your life. After running your own business for X years, you decided you would really like to focus only on the area of Possible Job. Your years of handling many areas has given you a lot of valuable business experience, and you wouldn’t trade that in, but now that you have it you would like to spend time really developing your skill in area of Possible Job and really refining your expertise in that profession.

      This should reassure people that you don’t want to do everything any more – which is totally legitimate – and are perfectly happy to follow their lead.

      Best wishes –

  223. Buu*

    I’m finally in a creative job and rid of my awful old boss. What I’d love is advice on doing a creative job when you have disagreeing managers. e.g I create something to spec then boss a says:

    – I want more teapots in it.
    Then I make changes and hand it in and boss b says
    – That has too many teapots.

    How do I reconcile the two? Another manager involved in it saw I was looking a little frazzled and suggested a meeting with some of the other team members to talk through solutions which is helpful ( I’m just not used to managers being helpful!!) but I have a feeling that I’m still going to be balancing these different groups as part of the office dynamic.

    1. Graciosa*

      Why not get boss A and boss B together to hash this out? If you keep doing it piecemeal, you could go on like this ad infinitum.

      It’s completely fair to say to either – or both – “I appreciate your feedback, but I’m in a bit of a difficult position. I’m getting contrary direction on this from you and Other Boss which makes it a little difficult to figure out the best way to close this out. Can I get some time with both of you so we can hash this out? Maybe a brief [Skype call with file sharing / meeting] would let me share where we are and a few options so we can all get on the same page. Does that work for you?”

      One boss may say they want to tie out without you and get back to you (which is fine if they actually do that), but you can try again if necessary.

      Or you can propose quick review meetings – even 10 minutes could work – and label them for preliminary / final design approval. You can also note that the back and forth in email is probably causing them a lot of rework, and wouldn’t it be more efficient to do this just once –

      Good luck.

  224. SanDiegoAnon*

    So I did something stupid today and I know it was stupid. There’s another girl on my team who I just don’t connect with. She’s doesn’t do her work well. She’s constantly calling out sick. She’s always the center of drama. So I should know better than to engage.

    She also never follows the dress code. She likes to pretend yoga pants are workplace appropriate or that visible sports bras are ok (they are not in our environment). Today she wore something that looked like pajamas. So the first time I saw her today, I was kind of shocked and blurted out “what in the world are you wearing?” – in front of all our peers. And 30 seconds of teasing from all us occurred. Apparently they were some fashion label and I guess I’m just that far removed from all things trendy. I thought it was just general office banter and we all just went back to work. She went to her boss/HR and reported me for bullying. And then went home for rest of the day because of the toxic work environment.

    HR wants to talk to me on Monday. I know it wasn’t my finest moment. I know I shouldn’t have called her out. But it’s not how I normally act. I know I can’t address the dress code stuff – it’s not my place and not my job. But how do I apologize and move on from this? I don’t want to be known as the office bully.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      Yikes. Definitely acknowledge to HR that you know it was the wrong thing to do – that you spoke without thinking, it won’t happen again, and that too intend to personally apologize to her for your rudeness. Then do so, and if anyone starts talking trash about her to you in the future, tell them that you regret the teasing and you’re making a concerted effort to not speak badly about any coworkers from now on.

    2. Temperance*

      I think it’s fine to tell HR that it was a joke, and Sensitive Sally took it the wrong way. I’m not sure I would apologize to a known drama queen unless HR recommends it; otherwise, you’re feeding right in to her need to be a Victim.

      1. Shoe*

        I disagree. Not acknowledging mistakes makes you look really irresponsible and untrustworthy–not how you want to be perceived at work! It is not just about how Sally feels, but how this reflects on the OP (although how Sally feels is also important, regardless of what a drama queen she is).

        OP, I would probably go with something like this for an apology: “I am so sorry for what I said. I don’t know what got into me, and that definitely isn’t who I want to be. There isn’t any excuse for my behavior, and I hope you’ll accept my sincere apology.”

    3. Not Alison*

      Why do you need to apologize? She is in violation of the dress code and you were taken aback that she would wear something so unprofessional in the office.

      I would definitely not approach HR about this as a situation that you need to apologize for but rather one that you are concerned about that she is violating the professionalism of the office and your main concern is that all staff dress professionally in accordance with the dress code.

      Women in business apologize for all sorts of things that men never do. Hold your head high and don’t allow yourself to be bullied by her (which is exactly what she is doing).

      1. Forking Great Username*

        Hold up – OP commented on someone’s wardrobe choices and a group of them teased that person about it, but the bully is the person being teased because they complained to HR? None of that sits well with me. Neither do the gender implications – regardless of whether or not this women’s clothes were appropriate, OP is not her boss (even if she were, that would be a poor way of handling it), and if a man made an inappropriate comment on someone’s outfit, he should also apologize. Women in particular get enough people policing their clothes without getting snarky comments and teasing from coworkers.

  225. Forking Great Username*

    I’m in the third week of an internship, and being majorly stressed out by diet talk. It’s never ending! I’m slightly overweight and pretty okay with that – at some point I’ll make an effort to lose it, but this is a crucial semester for me and I have two kids at home, so it’s just not a priority. But sitting around listening to diet talk every day is wearing on me. Ugh. Next week they’re all starting a biggest loser competition, so things are unlikely to get better on that front soon. It’s awkward and makes me feel super self conscious when they start talking about not eating bread and how it affects weight while I’m sitting there eating a sandwich.

    1. CleverGirl*

      I just own it and say something like “I could never give up carbs! Love my bread!” while stuffing my face with a sandwich and listening to the diet talk. Are any of them actually losing weight or are they just talking about losing weight? I’ve found that many people who obsess over it don’t actually do very well at achieving it. And if you’re not going to lose weight anyway, why deprive yourself of delicious, delicious carbs? Seriously, I realized something about diets recently. If you are constantly denying yourself yummy food in the name of a “diet” but you aren’t actually reducing your caloric intake enough to lose weight, you are just making your life miserable for no reason. So now I either go all-in and count calories, so I know that my restrictions are actually achieving something (which, by the way, I can still eat bread as long as I keep track of my calories, so the whole “bread makes you gain weight” thing is crap anyway) or I don’t bother to pretend to diet at all. There’s no point in refusing chocolate all the time when I’m just overeating “healthy” food and not losing weight anyway. So if you don’t have time to diet, don’t diet! But don’t half-heartedly diet and just deprive yourself of foods you like and not achieve anything.

      Anyway, maybe if you are annoying enough about it they will stop talking about it in front of you because you’ll be making them all jealous? Okay so probably not the best advice, but hang in there! Dieting does not have to be everyone’s priority all the time.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        They are losing weight, but I’m super unhealthy ways – one of the very slender women in the group only eats food that is on Weight Watchers zero points list and is losing weight at an unhealthy rate. Honestly, I think it’s concerning and am surprised that her co-workers are supporting it. But she’s my mentor and I’m new, so I don’t feel that I’m in a role where I can express concern about it.

    2. Delta Delta*

      If it’s an option, stop eating with the dieters. I once had to stop eating with a diet-crazy coworker (yelled at me for eating a nectarine, because carbs). I felt like I wasn’t being sociable but seriously couldn’t take the diet talk anymore.

  226. plath*

    Hi everyone,

    I recently graduated with my masters and was able to get a job right out of school (yay!) but unfortunately the job is not for me. It is a social services job– emotionally draining and mentally taxing– and I am unhappy going to work. I have been at the job for 7 months and have decided that I am miserable enough to apply elsewhere. I have an interview for an ideal position this coming week and am worried about how to answer the inevitable “why are you considering leaving your job” question. I want to be truthful but still professional. Any advice?

    1. beanie beans*

      I would focus on the “Why are you interested in THIS job” rather than “Why are you leaving your current job.” More in line with the field you’re interested in, looking for a shorter commute, looking for new challenges, or whatever makes this new job ideal.

      If they bring up that you haven’t been in your current job for long, you can always acknowledge it and say you just couldn’t pass up applying for this job.

    2. FD*

      “Truthfully, I found that this job wasn’t the right fit for me. I realized that I enjoy doing [x thing is hiring for] rather than [y thing you are doing now].”

  227. CleverGirl*

    I’ve been applying for tech-y jobs for a while and so far haven’t gotten any interviews. I’m a woman and I’m worried that my female name might be biasing hiring managers (or whoever makes the decision about who to interview). Now before people jump in and say “would you really want to work for a place that discriminates against women anyway?!” keep in mind that there is such a thing as subconscious bias and even women have been shown to rate resumes with a female name lower than identical resumes with a male name. This is a fact that I can’t change. I’d still like to get interviews.

    I was thinking about changing my name on my resume to my initials. I actually go by my initials sometimes as I have a two-part name that people like to shorten (think MJ (Mary Jane? is that her actual name?) in Spider Man). Would it be weird to just put my initials on my resume? I’m thinking it probably would, but wanted to ask for another perspective. And would it even help if I did, since it seems like these days most applications are done in a system online where you have to include your full name? So they’d have my name anyway even if it weren’t on my resume.

    1. Overeducated*

      I have a friend who did this while transitioning to tech, and she works for a company you’ve heard of in a pretty plum role. So n=1 but I say do it.

    2. Graciosa*

      This isn’t actually something I worry about very much, but considering that it’s your identity I think you should do whatever you want.

      I will say that if I were in your shoes and trying to leverage my name to improve my interview chances, I would choose an option that was clearly feminine. Lots of companies are trying to ensure more diverse work forces, and diversity candidates are in demand. Some companies have requirements to include them.

      I would also take a hard look at your resume and cover letters using Alison’s guidance and make sure you’re doing the best job you can of marketing yourself whatever name you put on the top. I genuinely don’t pay attention to names while reviewing and putting them in piles for the recruiter – limited time and not what I care about – but the quality of the resume should be a bigger concern. Everything you’ve read about having only seconds – and not many – to impress a hiring manager with your resume is true.

      Good luck.

  228. RunnerGirl*

    Hi All,

    So I started a new job this week. Part of it entails accounts receivable. There are about 250 clients for me to contact. Today my boss actually seemed disappointed when I didn’t have answers for all of them. I showed him my spreadsheet which has notes on a lot of them. One of the clients I have contacted twice and I was actually asked if I think they will pay. HOw am I supposed to know? It’s just my first week! And he thinks payments will already be in and applied to accounts and show up on the ATB next week.

    I’m thinking on Monday I will tell him “I think I can try to contact between 10-15 clients today. Which ones do you want me to focus on?”

    This is just out of touch with reality.

    1. Graciosa*

      Well, 10-15 in an 8-hour work day sounds like you’re taking more than half an hour with each one. Maybe he thinks you should be doing something else (mail merges to create individualized email reminders that can be sent frequently, then triaging responses for follow up?). Maybe he wanted you to attack them in order of amount due?

      Why don’t you ask him what he wants you to do differently? Be prepared to review your approach, offer some alternative ideas, and ask for feedback.

  229. Athena*

    So, the other day I found out there’s another teapot store opening in town as an offshoot of one in a nearby town. I work at what is presently the ONLY teapot store in town, and while it’s a lovely place to work, my boss does a few sketchy things (think not paying wages appropriately, like no penalty rates; something she’s gotten pulled up for before). Anyway, the owner of the teapot store in the other town emailed me the other day, asked me to please keep if quiet, but she’d like to bring me on when she opens as a manager if it was something I was interested in. I’m “managing” at the current store (as in, my boss explicitly told me I’m a manager but she “can’t” pay me as one), and I love working in teapot stores, so it’s something I’m interested in.
    However, it’s a small town – like, really small – and I suspect my current boss would react really poorly if I did move stores. It’s not a “now” problem, as I’ll be overseas at the end of the year anyway and the new store is looking like a 2019 open, but I’m wondering how to handle it if it indeed becomes a situation I face. (For context, my boss tends to take things REALLY personally; two of our staff members broke up and didn’t tell her, and she took that personally somehow. She also took it personally that a previous manager left, moved interstate and opened a teapot store. She still mutters about how that was an “abuse of the position”.) Advice?

    1. CatCat*

      What do you mean “react really poorly”? What is it that you’re concerned she is going to do? I’m not certain what the “small town” angle is here in this.

      1. Athena*

        More there’s a whoooole lot of talk that goes on here. She’s the sort of person who would snark to everyone about problems in her life (she’s been snarking to people about the colleagues who broke up; particularly snarking about the girlfriend). The anxiety part of me goes “oh, I do not want to deal with this” – we have a lot of mutual friends, and I worry this is something that would come back to bite me, even with her snarking to the potential new boss. Put it this way – the last time I needed her for a reference, I asked her if she’d be willing, and she said “oh, I’ll give them a bad one, that way I won’t lose you!”

        Joking or not, I decided it was safer not to use her as a reference.

    2. H.C.*

      I would advise to seriously consider the new shop’s opening and offer, especially in light of your current shop asking you to do the work of a manager w/o the corresponding pay. You are not responsible for your current boss’ pettiness, but you are responsible for your career path & being properly compensated for what you do. That being said, given her history of taking things personally, you should alternate references for that job if you ever need it (the prev. manager & other colleagues who left?)

      1. Athena*

        Definitely re: references. I’ve had to do that before as she told me she’d give me a bad reference for a job just so she wouldn’t lose me. While she was probably kidding, I didn’t want to take the chance.

    3. Shoe*

      You can’t manage the feelings and behavior of an unreasonable person (or a reasonable one, for that matter). What is the worst this woman can do to you? Be unhappy with you? Ok, so an unreasonable person is unhappy with you.

      No matter what you do, you aren’t going to make this person happy unless you never leave but always allow yourself to be underpaid. I assume that isn’t what you want, right? So don’t worry about upsetting her.

      1. Athena*

        I think I need to hear it bluntly like that. And, if I’m honest, having heard her talk about other employees and all – I know the outcome will be have to be “she whines, and maybe I hear it, but whatever”. In any case, she’s probably already whinging about me now in some capacity, right? She’s already made unkind remarks about me having a degree, and about another coworker “not being smart enough to work anywhere else”.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, even if she does take it badly (spoiler alert: she will) what could she possibly do? I mean, if you are worried she’ll burn your house down, yeah, that’s serious, talk to the police ;o)

          But short of that, what could she possibly do? Be mad? Badmouth you to her customers? If you don’t sink to her level and stay nice, polite and professional and don’t badmouth her, you will come out on top to all of the reasonable people.

          When I have something like this I literally sit down and try to think what are the actual worst case scenarios here? Write them all down. And then read through them and think “how realistic is this?” and “what would I do if this happens?”

          But short version: take the other job, and f&#$ this lady. She doesn’t deserve your work and she can’t do anything to you once you dont work for her anymore. Don’t let jerks hold you back!!

        2. Observer*

          I’m with Zora. Do your due diligence of course. But if the offer is reasonable ABSOLUTELY take the job.

          The fact that your boss actually threatened to give you a bad reference (even as a “joke”) is reason enough to look seriously about getting away from her. So is the fact that she WILL snark about you. This is a perfect opportunity to get away from her and reduce her ability to harm your future career.

          Even if you’re not ambitious and looking for great heights, you certainly don’t want to spend the rest of your work like underpaid. So get away from her to a job that will treat you reasonably, and will give you some ability to move on if you want to.

  230. Update question*

    Has there been an update on the letter about the woman who took a secret photo of her coworker’s colostomy bag and shared it around? If not, can you ask for one Alison? I need an update to that letter lol. I’m sure I’m not the only one who wants one. Thanks!

    1. Observer*

      If I recall correctly, the OP on that one said they were not going to post any further because a lot of people were blasting them for the situation.

  231. Eric*

    Finally worked up the courage to post. I’m an otherkin. I have been disheartened to see my religion and identity to be mocked and made fun of here on at least one occasion. I have stopped reading the comments all together and might stop coming here although. If someone mocked a person’s religion or gender identity on here people would jump all over them. It is a shame my identity is not treated with the same respect. I thought people here were nicer and more open minded.

    1. AnonnyNonNon*

      I’m not sure this is work related so won’t respnd to the the content. That said, I think you’ll have more discussion if you ask questions or frame this as the beginning of a conversation rather than generalizing about a whole community. I know nothing of otherkin…. you have opportunity to share your experience in the non work thread. There are many kind and open people here too.

    2. Thlayli*

      Put it on the non-work thread. Could be an interesting discussion. And get in early or most people won’t see it.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      There were some not very kind comments about this recently, I seem to recall. I’m sorry this was hurtful for you.

  232. char*

    (CW for transphobia)

    So I have a coworker, Fergus. I supervise him, but I’m not his manager. This week at lunch, Fergus said that transgender people are freaks. I’m guessing that he’s unaware that I myself am transgender.

    I was pretty upset by this comment. In the moment, I just said that that was a rude thing to say, and everyone just kind of dropped the subject. (He didn’t apologize though.) But I can’t stop dwelling on it. I’m not sure how comfortable I am working with someone who thinks that people like me are freaks. I mean, what if he found out that I’m trans? How would he treat me then? I’m also concerned for my other trans coworkers. On the other hand, he does good work and I really do need him on my team (he and I are the only two people on one of my projects).

    Is this something I can/should take to our manager and/or HR? Or should I talk to Fergus directly? (I’m concerned if I try to talk to him directly I’ll get overly emotional, though.) Or should I drop it because it was just one incident? I’m also worried that if I do bring this up again, he’ll realize that it’s because I’m trans, and I’d rather he not know that…

    And if I do drop it, how do I get over my anger and get to a point where I can evaluate Fergus’s work objectively? My manager has had doubts about his performance, but I really do think he does good work and I don’t want to be unfair to him… but man, when it comes to people being transphobic, I’m ashamed to say that I can hold a grudge for years. (I’ve been perfectly polite to him, though, mostly out of sheer force of habit.)

    1. CatCat*

      I would absolutely report this to my manager. His derogatory remarks do not belong in the workplace! You don’t need to address it with Fergus directly. You don’t need to out yourself. You can report inappropriate language like this regardless of whether you are part of the group being slurred.

      I’m so sorry this happened to you :-(

      1. Athena*

        Agreed. That sort of nonsense is out of line in general, but especially in a workplace. I’d take it up with a manager for sure.

    2. Anono-me*

      As a supervisor you have a responsibility to the company and to everyone workimg there to address bigoted hate speech.

      It sounds like you are worried that you might be over reacting because the comment was personal. I don’t think tjat you are. It maybe helpful ask yourself what you would do if the comment was directed toward a different marginalized group (Gay, atheist, Latino etc.) .

      Doing good work is important. Not making good coworkers leave because they don’t want to deal with ugly hate speech is also important. Not getting the company sued is also a good quality for an employee to have.

      As far as your concerns about how your coworker would react if he learned you are trans, I don’t really know what the best advice to give here is. I will point out however that he has already made you feel unsettled and possibly unsafe.

  233. long time lurker, first time commenter*

    Asking for some opinions here about gifting up for specific occasions.
    The long version is after working for 4.5 years under two supervisors, I’ve decided to move on to another job. These two supervisors are amazing! They have always been supportive of me, guided me when I was new, helped me (without any reprimanding-I was already beating myself up pretty good)when I made a pretty big error, and have gone to bat for me a couple times against the main office. I recognize and agree that gifts should always flow down, but I also want to get them a thank you gift when I leave. Both of these supervisors are overworked and underpaid, and I want to let them know that they are truly appreciated. Considering that there is no pressure to give them a gift, I’m not going to do it publicly so I won’t be creating a culture of gifting up, and I don’t expect anything in return, should I still refrain from doing so? Neither gift will be anything big (a nice pen or something along those lines)

      1. tab*

        I agree. When former employees sent notes thanking me for my support, it meant the world to me. No gift will mean as much as the words.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      Nothing material beyond a thoughtful, hand-written note is necessary or appropriate. They did their jobs, you did yours, and that’s really it. The fact that you had a good experience should be the rule, not a rewarded exception. Try to maintain contact when you’ve actually left though, they sound like good people to know!

    4. Kathenus*

      Strongly agree with everyone else on a sincere written note. I still have one I got from an employee I mentored at one job years ago and every time I run across it it still makes me feel great that she took the time to do this and that I had made a positive impact on her career.

    5. Observer*

      Perhaps a SMALL item that’s personal, but if you do that please just make sure that it’s not just junk that they are going to throw out. If either supervisor is “into” something that would be the way to do it. Eg if your supervisor is a Star Wars fan, you might get them something Star wars themed.

  234. Fifty Shades of No Way*

    This may seem strange, but I am not sure what to do in this scenario. I Google myself periodically so I know what a hiring manager may find if they search for me. Most of what I found was the usual: LinkedIn, a film project I did in college, people with similar names, etc. However, one of the links was a forum for an erotic roleplay group where one of the characters shares my name! I have no idea how to handle this if it ever comes up professionally. Because of some mild stalking in my past, I try to keep a low profile online (many of my coworkers cannot find my social media profiles). If someone remarks do I laugh it off? Play dumb? I have no idea how to handle this.

    1. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t mention it unless someone asks you about it or indicates that a search like this is part of their process. In either case, you can just be straightforward about it – you once googled yourself and found references to a lot of people with the same or similar names who weren’t you – including the name of a character in an roleplay arena where you were not a member. You’d be happy to share your own linkedIn link if they want to find you on line, or answer any questions about whether a reference to a person with your name is really you if they have questions.

      If you’re matter of fact about it, it’s not likely to be awkward. I think most people who have googled themselves have had a similar experience.

    2. Wrench Turner*

      Like Graciosa said, the less embarrassed you are, the less embarrassing it will be and you can move on. Don’t bring it up, and if they do, “I saw that too! I have no idea what any of it is, but how weird is that? AWKWARD! Anyway, about my portfolio…” You can be honest about the fact that it is a weird awkward coincidence and nothing more. Don’t stress.

  235. Overthinking interview clothes?*

    I have a suit for interviews, that I bought a number of years ago. The jacket still fits me, but the pants…. very much do not. I went out today to pick up some new pants, and I couldn’t find any that match the fabric of the jacket EXACTLY. A lot of black dress pants looked a little more grey than the jacket, or if the colour match was pretty close then the texture would be off. I looked up the suit brand and I can go pick up some new pants from them. But a) their pants are like $95, b) it’s summer here so it seems like 90% of their cuts are capris or culottes rather than something more straightforward and interview-y.

    Part of me thinks “near enough will be good enough. No one is going to be pressing the bottom of my jacket to my leg to confirm that one fabric is different to the other”. Of course, part of me is also screaming that this is a TOTAL INTERVIEW RUINER, and my only recourse is buy a WHOLE NEW SUIT.

    (If it helps, I’m an Australian woman in the medical research field, at the level of research assistant. In my most recent job I’ve been wearing jeans, sneaks, and a nice top. Some people in the institute wear suits with no tie, or skirts + heels + blouse, while others wear jeans and polos or jeans and t-shirts. At least one person rides to work and spends the day in her bike clothes before riding home again… It is not always easy to pick the dress code of a group.)

    1. AnonnyNonNon*

      If you have to wear a suit (I’m in a similar field, I don’t have a suit anymore), can you perhaps go totally away from matching? Grey or burgundy or any other color pants? Pattern? I had a pretty houndstooth pair, but maybe tweed (although that’s not summery)? If you wear skirts/dresses, can you make that work? Personally, unmatched black makes me crazy and I admit I’d notice. I wouldn’t think worse of you, but I’d notice and it would make me itchy. I think a comfortable and well put together interview outfit is better than an mismatched suit (because a mismatched suit is not a suit). Good luck, embrace separates and maybe throw yourself on the mercy of the nice sales people and see if they have an idea.

      1. Overthinking interview clothes?*

        Thanks for the reply! Confirmation that I’m not the only one who would notice is actually soothing – I can move on to sorting out other options, rather than getting mismatched pants and still fretting.

        I have a tan blazer with black piping – maybe that would look good over black pants and one of my many black blouses? I have some dresses I can wear the blazer over (though I need to check that they’re long enough). And I was also thinking that I’d like a grey suit, since I don’t see a lot of black suits these days and honestly I think my suit looks kinda dour. So maybe this is a good excuse to get that ball rolling.

        1. Dear liza dear liza*

          Those sound like great options. I think it’s also really important that YOU feel comfortable with the clothing. If a tiny part of your mind was preoccupied with your pants during the interview, that could knock you off your game, even if in reality no one else noticed a mismatch.

        2. Anono-me*

          The nice thing about a classic cut midweight medium gray suit is that it looks very different depending on the shirt/scarf you wear with it.

          I do agree that mismatched blacks are a visual itch. For many positions this would not matter.

          If you are in a field where colors or attention to details matter (like an electrician), I might be concerned that you had accidentally worn the wrong pants and jacket. Either without noticing or because you had a certain degree of color blindness.

  236. Shrunken Hippo*

    How can I not go crazy with people saying they’re sorry I didn’t get a job?
    For context, I was one of only three people who were interviewed for a position and was by far the youngest and most inexperienced. There was a particular part of the position that I have zero experience in so they went with someone else who did. I understand that perfectly and was not surprised. The rejection e-mail I received was very kindly worded as the hiring manager stated that she highly encouraged me to apply to any future job openings, and I most likely will as I now know what positions will be better suited for me. My issue is that everyone is very disappointed that I didn’t get the job and keeps telling me how sorry they are for me that I wasn’t hired. I understand a quick “that sucks” but they keep going back to it. I have tried to tell them “I understand why I didn’t get this one, but I’m moving on to other applications.” and “It sucks, but I have to focus on other opportunities” but people will not leave it alone. Any suggestions on how to shut people down without grabbing them by the shoulders and shaking them?

    1. Overthinking interview clothes?*

      Say “Thanks” and quickly change the subject. “Thanks! How is [thing the other person does] going?”

      If there are people who have brought it up several times, you can say something like “I think it’s a good thing. I knew I had zero experience in one area, so that would have been really stressful to learn on the job. But I still made it to the final three, and the hiring manager advised me to apply for other positions. That’s a way better outcome than I was expecting, so it’s all been really encouraging. The only downside is that I know a lot of people around me are disappointed that I didn’t get it, haha.”

    2. Forking Great Username*

      Well, they’re just trying to show empathy, so I would try to remind yourself of that and not be annoyed unless they’re apologizing multiple times per rejection. If that’s the case, think about whether these are people you need to tell about your interviews (if they don’t know about the interview, they won’t know about the rejection), or just saying, “I know you mean well, but I’m trying to just forget about it and move on.”

      1. Shrunken Hippo*

        My issue is I’m not telling them, they just find out because I live in a very small town and they all consider themselves to be my adoptive grandparents. It’s sweet but they bring it up multiple times in a conversation. I do try to keep in mind that they’re being nice but it is starting to get out of hand. I’m doing my very best to be patient and change the topic. I guess I just need to go into customer service mode and smile and nod when they keep repeating it.

  237. Ceiswyn*

    Academics! (I know you’re out there) Speak unto me of PhD interviews!

    Having spent *mumble* years working in software development, I’m trying to move into a completely unrelated area in academia. I’m currently doing a full-time Masters in that area and applying for funded PhDs, and I’ve got a short Skype interview next week for something I’m really excited about.

    I know all the standard stuff – do the background reading, make sure the tech works – but what I don’t know is, well, how to interview. I’m going from being hot property in industry to being just another candidate (albeit a decent one) in academia, and I’m worried about the interview technique I honed in the former context going down badly in the latter…

    I don’t even know if this is The Interview or some kind of pre-screening; I defaulted to assuming the former, then realised my instincts were based on my standing in my old field and that the latter is actually more likely.

    What sort of thing should I expect, and what sort of thing is my putative supervisor likely to be looking for?

    1. TL -*

      I’m not in your field (and things work differently field by field) but in general – it’s an interview much more focused on your interests and your goals. Be prepared to talk about projects you’ve worked on previously and how they inform your research goals, what your research goals are and why you’re interested in them, and how that intersects with their research.
      If you’re wanting to do anything in academia afterwards, look up their publishing record if you haven’t previously. If it’s not good, ask about that (not in a derogatory way but you’ll need to know if their philosophy is publish 1x/year in a top tier journal versus publish as often as possible vs they’re just not publishing.)

      if this ends up being The Interview – ask how long PhD students usually take to graduate in their lab, what they do afterwards, what kind of funding do they have. You can and should ask about lab/mentor culture but chances are a) what they say will be pretty different from what you experience and b) they’ll either have not thought of it or will have a pretty pat response.

  238. Wrench Turner*

    I’ve got a nothing-to-lose job interview today and I’m actually looking forward to it (instead of being a nervous wreck like usual). It’s an unpaid working interview -about 5hrs time total- but I’m genuinely curious about the real estate inspection process details. He said it would be a 1099 position (no taxes out or benefits, boo) as part of a franchise, but more of an independent partner and less a dispatched employee and… I have a lot of questions about how all THAT works, less so about the details of sniffing around buildings.

    With my day job, although I got a raise I’m actively looking to leave, as are half the staff. It’s a very toxic environment, shouting matches are becoming regular between the shop manager and other employees (not me, I refuse to participate). I’m also seeing corruption where I’ve found some purposefully damaged -therefore replaced and invoiced- equipment, reported it to the manager and instead of firing the suspect get a “I’ll deal with it.” and nothing happens. The second time it was found – I confirmed another employees suspicion that the same guy did the same thing- he reported it to the boss and the boss sicced the suspect on him and they got to shouting and now will not work together. I’ve got photo evidence of both so far. If I find another I’m taking it up to HQ way over his head – and also quitting, I don’t want to be involved with a shop that does this for personal reputation and legal reasons.

    Besides Document Document Document, any advice for dealing with toxic, manipulative bosses and the corruption it fosters?

    1. Mio*

      I think it’s good to try to totally disconnect from your job on your free time, if that’s possible for you. And maybe also to talk to somebody outside the situation, so you don’t lose perspective of how horrible it is! I don’t know if that’s a problem for you, but in my case, it didn’t take long for a horrible boss to warp my perspection of how a normal workplace is supposed to be. The thing with the purposefully-broken equiptment sounds nuts!

      I hope your interview went well, and good luck with everything!

  240. Scott*

    I work in a restaurant called Buffalo Wild Wings. I have been recently promoted to shift lead. My boss wants me to talk in front of the staff. He says “if there is anything I want the guys to work on now is the time to talk about it.” The problem is I have never done this before. I can easily walk up there and give the guys constructive criticism him all day but I do not want it to come across as me telling what there doing everything wrong. I want to add in positivity into my speech. Any websites or advice anyone would be able to offer would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Observer*

      Have you heard of the “compliment sandwich”? It’s often annoying, but in this case it makes sense because you want people to know that you actually see the good stuff they are doing not just the bad. Also be big picture about it. So you might say something like “BWW emphasizes good service, and I think we over all do a good job especially a, b and c. But when you do x,y, and z that slows things up and gets people annoyed. P, q and r would accomplish the same goal without slowing down service.”

    2. Agnodike*

      I use the “compliment sandwich” very effectively with my students. If there’s stuff you really think your supervisees need to work on (and make sure it’s really stuff that needs changing – don’t critique just to critique!) then for every piece of critical feedback, find two related things that they did well. So, for example: “You’re really great at engaging your patients when you take a history, but make sure that you’re also asking targeted questions to follow up when they answer “yes” to a screening question. I really like the way you give them enough time to answer questions fully, though.” Hearing critical feedback with positive feedback on the same topic helps frame the critical feedback as part of a larger narrative, which makes it easier to take well.

      But I think the more important thing is triaging what makes it to the level of feedback that needs to be shared. Plenty of people will do things differently than you would, or not 100% efficiently, or otherwise in ways that you think COULD be improved. But remember that receiving critical feedback takes a lot of energy, and if you give it too often it burns goodwill. Think of it as expensive: it costs your supervisees energy, and it costs you goodwill, so make sure that you save it for when it’s really needed, i.e. when the thing that needs improving is having a real impact on outcomes.

  241. Wolfram alpha*

    I received an intern that is poorly matched. Think I specialize in a, b, c and intern has no skill, or more importantly, interest in learning a, b, or c.

    I reached out to our coordinator immediately to see if there is a switch I could make. If I can’t though, anyone have ideas to provide a good threeonth internship to someone who was misplaced through no fault of their own?

    1. Observer*

      Is there any overlap in the work that gets done? Say, you do rice sculptures and they want to do chocolate teapots. You’re not going to be able to provide any direct experience with chocolate teapots, but may be you can provide experience in some of the design phases like collecting requirements, vendor management, documentation etc.

  242. spinetingler*

    Not sure about my long-term future at my current job due to management/reporting changes (I’ve been here 15+ years) so I’ve applied for a few positions around town. Got an interview for an interesting position, so I took a day off, got my favorite suit cleaned, and had a good interview and tour of the facility. At the end of the interview (and why it was the end will be obvious) the interview asked “So when I tell you that the position is only part-time, would that be a deal-breaker?”

    WTF.

    Maybe put that in the ad next time?

    (“I think we forgot to change the ad when we re-listed the position.”)

  243. Mio*

    Does anyone have any tips on how not to feel guilty about leaving an awful job? I was only with the company for 3 months, and during that time 3 other employees quit because of the unbelievable boss. I wouldn’t have believed that a person in a relatively succesful, highly visible company would BRAG about breaking the law and getting away with it on multiple occasions.. The boss also changed employees’ schedule without asking (taking away previously agreed vacation days with no notice), reduced people’s salaries with no legal reason (we’re still working this out) and shouted and cursed at multiple people, mostly to the younger female employees.

    I was lucky enought to land another job, but making it through my notice period was difficult, with the bosses reaction being basically “how dare you quit?!?” Now that my last day is finally over, I feel immense relief.. but also guilt. I’ve never quit a job before, because I never had such a nutcase as a boss! Rationally I know that quitting was a totally reasonable move – but I’d appreciate any advice on how to squash that little guilty feeling in my stomach!

    1. Kathenus*

      You have the 100% support of an internet stranger that you should not feel guilty in the slightest. In fact, pat yourself on the back for continuing to work out your notice when your boss didn’t even deserve that with treating you badly during your notice period. You were a professional, your boss is not. Absolutely no guilt needed. Good luck with your new job!

      1. Mio*

        Thank you so much! That really does make me feel better.. :) I think a part of me was still thinking that I was being unprofessional for quitting so soon, but it’s true that the boss was (and still isn’t..) absolutely not acting professional. Thanks again!

    2. KB*

      Maybe a mantra to tell yourself when you feel guilty? It might feel silly, but it’s kinda like reversing the negative self-feeling with positive self-talk. “I was right to leave” or “I don’t owe them anything”?

      1. Mio*

        Thank you for the reply! That doesn’t sound silly at all – I’ve heard of that before, but I’d forgotten.. I’ll try to make that my mantra, especially since the boss is still contacting me.. With the way he treated other quitting employees, I’m sure he’s going to try and withhold my pay. Luckily I have everything necessary documented, but it’s still super stressful.. But yes – I WAS right to leave!! Thank you :)

  244. Cappuccino*

    I would like to ask my line manager about plans for my role long term. I started as an apprentice, became an assistant after a couple of years, and the next step would be to officer grade, with a pay rise.

    My line manager doesn’t make these decisions, but he reports directly to grandboss who does. How can I ask him about this at our next 121 meeting? I would like to know if this is in grandboss’s plan, and if so, by when should I expect to be moving up? Thanks for any responses. Hope I’m not too late!

  245. buttercup*

    Any good questions to ask in either a job or informational interview to properly suss out company culture??

    I currently work in a job that is not exactly what I want to do in functionality, but I do love the culture. Basically, it’s a corporate job but without the negative stereotypes. Our workforce is diverse, people are genuinely friendly and supportive of one another (no dog-eat-dog culture.) My manager is really kind and supportive – he is not afraid to give constructive feedback, but doesn’t micromanage. We also have work-life balance, which is important to me.

    I want to make sure I don’t trade a decent job for one with higher pay but is stressful.

    1. Someone else*

      “In your opinion, what’s it like to work here?”/”What do you enjoy about working here?” have worked for me in the past- and okay, by ‘worked’, I mean the answers I got /would/ have given me a heads-up about the toxicity I was letting myself in for had I really listened to the response.

      Don’t expect them to tell you everything about office politics, natch, but in retrospect an interview where the interviewer told me both that “we’re like a huge family here” and “you’ll need to be a drinker to really fit in” probably should have set alarm bells ringing.

  246. Pathfinder Ryder*

    I had a promising sounding phone interview the other day which I’m supposed to hear back from as to whether I have an in person interview early this week (I’m posting on my Sunday). Fingers crossed!

  247. aeldest*

    I have a situation I could use some advice on.

    Background: college student job, not real life.

    I started dating a supervisor at work. He’s not my direct supervisor, so it’s not technically against the rules, but definitely frowned upon, so we kept it on the DL. However, I guess the universe decided to intervene because we ran into our supervisor while we were out on a date–not once, but TWICE. Two and two was put together and became four, and now the entire supervisory staff knows. Boyfriend was already thinking about stepping down from supervisory responsibilities because of stress, and has decided to officially do so to avoid any problems moving forward.

    I’m just kinda sick over the whole situation. I’m really glad I’m dating Boyfriend, we’re incredibly compatible and serious about each other, but I know how gossipy our workplace is and I hate that everyone is going to be whispering about how “Aeldest is the reason Boyfriend was demoted” or thinking I’m the kind of person who just hooks up with people at work (because I’m not, I had already fallen for him before anything happened).

    Ugh. I guess I’m not even sure what advice I need because really all I can do is keep my head down, continue to do my job well, and hope that my boyfriend doesn’t subconsciously resent me for our relationship making the choice to demote himself happen quicker than he was maybe planning on. But I am definitely open to advice and thoughts. Thanks for reading.

  248. Comms Girl*

    I’m going to have an appraisal this week and I will ask for a raise given the amount of work I performed, and dedication I’ve shown, over the past year (and ever since I started this job), but it’s the first I ever ask for a raise and I’m quite anxious about it – do you guys have any good tips for me? Much appreciated :)

    PS – I’m not perfect, I had a couple of missteps but even so I managed to bounce back from them and produce great results on the same issues. I am also at a somehow “every penny counts” situation, financially-speaking, so I could really use the extra money.

  249. CJS*

    Anybody else have really weird experiences with job scammers?

    I was emailed a few months back about a personal assistant job I could apply for that paid weekly, with a simple application link. Everything seemed fairly straightforward, and mostly like actual job application questions. About two weeks later I got an email saying the job had been assigned to me (!) and I would “resume helping [him] out with some errands” (when did I do that exactly) including “making payments on [his] behalf” (!!!!!), and I needed to “assure [him] of [my] trust, honesty and commitment”.

    At this point I was 110% sure this was a scam, but I wanted to see where it would go. I asked him what he wanted me to do first, and in his reply he introduced himself and apologized for not conducting an interview as he’d been in Montreal (I live in Ottawa, which is like an hour away, also he’s never heard of phone or Skype interviews). However, he did say he was opening a new office that was -coincidentally- right near the University I attended (which is surrounded by suburban housing so okay then). said we could meet next month for a formal interview (uuuuhhhhhhh…).

    More in line with what I was curious about, the man I was also told that he wanted me to buy some stuff and send it to an orphanage home as he’d grown up in one. At this point I’d heard everything I cared about and ceased contact, but wow was it an amusing ride.

  250. Snark*

    So I learned on Friday afternoon that my contract isn’t being extended for its final option year, leaving me furloughed or laid off in late May unless I can hustle my ass off and convince my client to cough up some money that could fund another task order and keep me on the job. Very much not expected, and very much not what we were hearing even just three weeks ago, when it was looking like the option year would be exercised.

    It’s not the first time this has happened, and it’s worked out well….wow, three or so times now. I’m hoping my karma and luck carries me through, but it’s really not feeling great to be here again, not knowing what’s going to happen. Four months is not much time for a job search, if it comes to that.

    If anybody needs me, I’m sure I’ll be waking up at 4am with my heart pounding for the next several months.

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