open thread – March 9-10, 2018

by Alison Green on March 9, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Sunflower*

    I’m looking for guidance on how to speak to my grandboss about the issues I’ve been having with my new boss of 7 months and job overall. My last check in with my grandboss was 4 months ago(she wants us to do quarterly one on one check-ins) and I expressed that morale on the team was low. It feels like things are getting worse and I don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. I don’t feel that my boss is an advocate for our team. I feel like I’m losing a sense of autonomy and I don’t feel empowered to make decisions anymore. My boss is enforcing new guidelines but when I ask for clarification on them, she isn’t able to give anything but vague responses. She is disorganized and will complain that no one ever told her of things even though I have emails that refute that. I can’t trust her either as I’m never sure whether the information she is giving to me is correct or not because she is so forgetful. She has an overall bad attitude and provides very little customer service to the teams we support. The biggest issue is people we support have complained to me and said they don’t trust her to handle their projects and they would prefer me to be involved in them (I realize I shouldn’t say all of these things but to give you an idea of the struggles I’ve encountered with her)

    Do you guys have suggestions of how to word things or topics to stick to so I can keep this strictly about me and my job while still giving hints that these issues are related to my boss? I’m nervous about opening up this can of worms as it’s very unlikely this meeting is going to lead to an immediate change. I debated whether to bring this up but I’m at the end of my rope and I need to know whether this is the new status quo here(in which case, leaving is 100% right). Thanks in advance to this awesome group of peeps :)

    1. CTT*

      Ugh, that’s a bad situation. I think the best advice when bringing this up is to stick solely to quantifiable things: issues it’s caused with the people you support, late projects, or similar. If you focus on her being disorganized/giving vague responses/etc., that could make your grandboss think it’s just a clash of management styles and be less willing to intervene.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Agree with CTT. No personal issues, just business issues and how it impacts the work.

    2. Parenthetically*

      So sorry! No fun.

      I’d agree with CTT to try to keep it to specific, quantifiable things, and I’d add the “show, don’t tell” rule — so rather than “I don’t feel Jane is an advocate for our team,” try “On several occasions, Jane has done X (thing that illustrates how Jane is failing to advocate for the team).” Talk about HOW she has micromanaged you, or in some other way taken away your autonomy or ability to make the independent decisions required by your role. Discuss the impact of her forgetfulness with specific examples. I think the key things for me are specific, quantifiable, related to the requirements of your job, and focused on impact.

      1. Lance*

        And more than that, I feel you’d be justified in bringing up the complaints, and the refusals to work with your boss, from the people you support. If they’re not getting what they need from your department due to your boss, that’s very much something your grandboss would want to know.

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          And even show the emails that show where she knew something and later claimed she didn’t

    3. Marshmellin*

      You don’t happen to work at a global company in the Health division, do you? Because I’m having the exact same issue and I’d bet money you’re my coworker, A.

      No real advice to offer, sadly. I’ve tried managing up in my situation, and I’m not making headway. I had resigned myself to a job search because she and grandboss are very tight due to shared hobbies, etc. and grandboss brought her in.

      Sorry to not have advice. I so commiserate, though. :/

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Regarding your biggest issue, in time it will become apparent that everyone is avoiding her. You really don’t have to say or do anything on that one.

      I think pick 2-3 of your biggest problems. Have at least one, preferably two examples of each problem.
      Okay so using what you have here:

      “Big Boss, I am having trouble getting a clear handle on the new guidelines. I ask New Boss and she said xyz where what I was looking for was more along the lines of abc. Well, she’s new and the guidelines are new, so there is that learning curve. Do you have any advice for additional materials that would help give me a more accurate read on what to do?”

      “I have had problems getting correct information regarding As, Bs and Cs.I can see where the info I am getting is indeed incorrect. I need this to do my work. How can I get this information on my own so I can verify that it is right?”

      In short, you are asking for work-arounds so you are less dependent on your boss for your information. But you mention the boss as little as possible and try to minimize what the problem is. My experience has been that if I minimize something the big boss hears me and reacts. If I say, “oh this is soooo baaddd”, the big boss instantly starts in on saying why everything is okay.

      1. Casuan*

        I agree with NSNR.
        The caveat is that before you talk with your grand-boss, you should be able to tell GB that you’ve made several attempts to discuss these issues with your direct-boss & why those efforts didn’t succeed.
        You might have already done this?
        If you have suggestions as to how your communications can improve then you could offer them, too, such as by saying that DB gives vague responses when you really need more specifics.
        Be confident in your intent, Sunflower. You’re not trying to undermine, tattle [I hate that phrase in the workplace], or otherwise badmouth your boss. You are simply telling grand-boss that your work is not efficient when you can’t get the guidance you need from your DB. It’s a big deal that your boss can’t clarify objectives or plainly communicate what you & the team need to know. It’s also a big deal that clients are circumventing your boss & grand-boss needs to know this. If you tell GB how your work is affected then GB will piece together the bigger picture.

        eg: If your boss won’t make time to listen to your concerns, or if she did then you realised that neither of you could really understand the other… I’ve had managers who never seemed to understand me when I say “The sky is blue.” They’d respond as if I said it was purple- every single time. I had to believe they thought the same of me. It was maddening & thankfully quite rare.

    5. designbot*

      “I feel like I’m losing a sense of autonomy and I don’t feel empowered to make decisions anymore.”
      I would focus on this part of it. You can bring in the bit of other teams specifically requesting you because they trust you to handle their projects as a counterpoint to this, as proof that you do good work and are deserving of the trust you used to enjoy from your manager.

  2. Amber Rose*

    More of a rant today: My supervisor was badmouthing me in a meeting with our newly promoted manager… and I know because the meeting took place in the room directly behind my desk, with the door open.

    She later thanked me for something I did but it’s hard to take that at face value when my first thought is, “you two-faced bitch.”

    I adore my coworkers but my direct management, both of them, treat me like I’m an annoying waste of space. It’s messing me up. The advice here is probably “job hunt” but I don’t even know where to start. I feel lost.

    1. Alternative Person*

      I hear you. My co-worker decided ornery was a better path than polite today over something pointless and my manager who told me last week that I do a very good job, decided the best tack when I went to him about it was to play the ‘you’re no better’ card. Just. Urgh. He wants me to help the workplace be better but he also wants me to not expect my co-workers to be at least minimally polite.

      I looked around job boards but now is just not a good time for me to change jobs.

      *Fist bump of solidarity*

      1. Samiratou*

        On the ornery coworker, assuming she’s not ornery all the time, that could just be a bad day or a straw-that-broke-the-camels-back situation but your boss’ response was totally assholic.

        1. Alternative Person*

          Honestly, I thought with ornery coworker and I had tacitly agreed to have non crossing orbits but over the past few weeks he’s decided that he must get in all the digs.

          I’m not particularly bothered because I’ll in all likelihood be out of this place in a year or so whatever happens but I also want to tell him ‘can we just go back to not stepping on each others toes’.

    2. fposte*

      Can you think about where you’d start? This employer has been less than satisfactory for you for a while, so it’s probably time. I don’t know whether the economy around there has rebounded at all, but it wouldn’t hurt to window-shop to see what’s out there.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’ve thought for a long time. I just don’t know. I don’t have a great job history so I don’t seem to be qualified for anything.

        1. StrikingFalcon*

          “I’m not qualified for anything” is a pretty normal feeling after spending too much time in a highly dysfunctional office. But what do you have to lose by putting some applications out there anyway? I think I’d start by listing all of your accomplishments at past jobs – no matter how small. Don’t let yourself dismiss them as unimportant, just put them on the list. “Almost responded to emails within 24 hours,” for example. Then, what on the list do you feel good about? Can you match it to any of the job requirements out there?

          1. spocklady*

            This seems like really good advice to me. When I’ve struggled to get a sense of perspective with lots of feelings/anxieties swirling around, writing things down without judging them first was SO helpful. It’s one of those techniques that I think I forget about because it seems so basic, and it always takes me by surprise how helpful it is.

            On that note, I’m off to go start writing out the main points of a conversation I need to have with newboss.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          You have done soooo many things at this employer that I think you could find something in just about any field. Have you looked into risk management? I say that because I (think) recall you saying they had you doing safety-related things as well as handling compliance issues even though they weren’t your job. You clearly work well under pressure and tight deadlines, so you might actually be very qualified to go into that field should it interest you and you find job postings in your area for it.

    3. Mike C.*

      Whenever I get this way, I set my default webpage to the internal career/job posting page.

    4. disconnect*

      I read a great response on captainawkward the other day that I think fits here. Whenever a person does this Thing, say to yourself, “I see you.” Meaning, “I see what you did there. You’re an asshole who did an asshole thing, and I think deep down you know you’re an asshole and it’s keeping you up at night.” People are going to act poorly, and you can’t change them. But you can change your response to them, and labeling their actions in a neutral tone of mental voice is a great first step.

      1. shep*

        This is great advice. I’m working with some people in my office I haven’t crossed paths with before due to a restructuring, and while my interaction with them has been FAR less adversarial/two-faced-y than Amber Rose describes, I was utterly taken aback at how patronizing they can be.

        I haven’t been spoken to like I’m five aside from when I was five.

        It’s certainly not a LOT of patronizing, but cutting me off mid-sentence, and then kind of steamrollering through why my thought is utterly unworkable…

        It wasn’t that my idea didn’t pan out; ideas often don’t pan out. It was how said non-panning out was presented to me. It, embarrassingly, left me far more defensive than I otherwise am, and I admit I didn’t handle the feedback super gracefully. (I think I handled it more or less fine, but with a distinct lack of fineness and a touch too much defense–by way of explanation, because I hadn’t finished my initial thought when I was cut off.)

        I’m usually super chill and roll with things, and I just have to recalibrate my expectations for these new folks and, as you say, change my response to them with an eye toward neutrality.

    5. i am the night*

      Same. Boss shit talks me for things that aren’t even my fault or have nothing to do with me, and then sometimes is more polite to my face. It really messes with my head. I’ve been applying everywhere and I’m starting to suspect my suffering self-esteem is showing in my resume and cover letters. :/

    6. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Sorry I can’t help you here. When that happened to me I called out very loudly “I can hear you” without even looking up.
      That shut it down pretty quick.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        OP, I would be sorely tempted the next time to do this. Clearly she is just going to keep bad-mouthing, but she does not have to do it so you can hear.

        If confronted, you can say, “I don’t talk about you that way for a reason, I don’t expect to be spoken of in that manner.”
        OR
        “I fail to understand how you see your remarks here will make me a better employee or make this a better work place.”

      2. Amber Rose*

        She knows I can hear her. She doesn’t care because she has all the power. It’s all stuff she’s said to my face before too. If I rock the boat I’ll be unemployed.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Had a boss a bit like this, although just backstabbing, not backstabbing+bullying. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. My mantra, for every encounter, was “It really sucks that I have to deal with you, but I’m glad I’m not you.”

          1. Kewlmom*

            LOL! We have a similar saying: “The only thing worse than dealing with you would be being you.”

      3. Too good to be true usually is*

        I’ve been at a place for just less than 7 months; it didn’t take me long to discover its history of astonishing turnover. There is a lot of not particularly subtle emotional abuse in meetings and bad-mouthing of past (and present) employees. Micromanaging, too, and crazy-making inconsistency. It’s amazing how it’s never the bosses’ faults that people keep leaving. I’ve been working long enough to know that however amazing I might be (and I’m pretty good), I will never be good enough at this place. I have no control over what my boss thinks and says, now or after I inevitably leave, but I do have control over what I do when I’m not here — and that’s get my resume ready, look for openings, and get those cover letters out.

    7. Weyrwoman*

      Job hunting can certainly be a good idea. My advice here as a starting point would be to update your resume and cover letter. Maybe do a huge refresh on how the resume is organised? Get any notable projects noted, update to reflect your skills, and then hunt through job boards for positions that match about 80% of those skills. You don’t have to actively apply to any at first – just searching through listings can give you a good idea of where the market is, and what to expect.

      1. Amber Rose*

        There are no such jobs. My skills are random. Most people in my line of work need to have either hands on technical expertise, or an expensive certification that I can’t even apply to take the test for until 2020.

        That’s why I’m lost. I ended up in this field by fluke, and I’m stuck here by my own limitations.

        1. Alice*

          Even if you can’t leave now, you can start working towards leaving by beefing up your experience. If you can’t get the experience you want from your job, could you volunteer for something that would give you additional skills? Plus, Network, network, network. Join a networking group, let everyone you know (outside of work) know that you’re open to new opportunities. You never know what will pop up and when. Plus, if you volunteer and/or network, when you are ready to jump ship, you’ll have all of these wonderful contacts ready, willing and able to hopefully assist you in finding your happier place.

        2. Cloud 9 Sandra*

          Do you have the resources to see a counselor of some sort? Just being able to tell your story to a neutral party who validates you can be so helpful in finding focus.

        3. Specialk9*

          Lots of jobs are random collections of skills. So general advice, don’t get too stuck in this particular field or that one particular cert you can’t get yet.

          And definitely don’t let those bullying voices worm their way into your brain – you’re here, consistently, and you make good comments, which shows that you are dedicated to self improvement and capable of learning. That’s a huge portion of success right there.

          Can you look into a general cert? For example, work your way through Microsoft certifications, or ITIL foundations (which is doable for non-techies), or any of the IT newbie CompTIA certs (Google “best IT beginners certifications”). If you need in person teaching, how about a community college or local education (in the towns where I’ve lived, there are local classes on all topics – how to use a computer, how to cook soup, how to knit – and there have been professional development courses).

          Lover term, think about working toward Project Management Professional, or a cybersecurity cert (CISM is more manageable for a newbie than CISSP, I think).

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      I use to work for a bully (like hold team meetings with everyone but me to get feedback and pressure everyone to say bad things together) bully.

      It is very hard. Reward yourself. Track your accomplishments and remember that any manager worth their Sally will take negative feedback they did not witness work a grain of salt. If you do good work for the new manager and stay polite they may even become an ally and source of new job satisfaction.

    9. June*

      Two books that might help you is Start: Punch Fear in the Face, Escape Average, and Do Work That Matters by Jon Acuff and 48 Days to the Work You Love: Preparing for the New Normal by Dan Miller. These books helped me leave some pretty toxic work environments*. After realizing it was them, not me, I left and went to college. Four months after graduation, I found a great job working for the state. I love, love, love my job and am excited to come to work every day. And been promoted once already ($10K bump with a great title) in the 2 years I have been here.
      * I had 3 bad jobs, back to back, after I retired from the military. I started thinking all the good I had done while active duty was a lie and that I am actually complete screw up (not an award winning airman). Found out that I was working for horrible people. And you know what? Those bosses who said I would never amount to anything are still in the same, sad location that I left (or was asked to retire). The one boss who said I wasn’t smart enough to go to college, well… now both of us have master’s degree. I know that I make more than my first boss ($40K) and the same as the other two bosses ($82K). Two of the horrible bosses are locked into their jobs (school principle) and will probably not advance any higher (their reputation precedes them in our local area).
      I posted this story was not to brag (but gotta admit it did feel good to talk about my accomplishments and personal growth) but to tell you that I have been there, done that, have the scars. You deserve better and I truly believe you will not only survive this but be better than the boss you left. Not because she is a horrible person in the first place but because you are already so much better than you realize. So go read, dream, take some classes, change job, and move forward. You got this!

    10. spocklady*

      Ugh, that is awful, Amber Rose. What a jerk move, to treat someone who reports to them that way, just because they have power in this situation.

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this and feeling stuck.

    11. AnonyNewb*

      Wow, do we have the same boss? Sounds just like mine.
      I’ve been job hunting for a year now trying to get out of a super toxic work environment – getting really frustrated at this point, but hoping it’ll all work out soon.

    12. Safetykats*

      Did others also hear this? Because it’s so inappropriate (having these kinds of conversations where others can overhear) I actually had a grandboss fired for that. We had more than one employee go to HR saying they felt their position was in jeopardy, due to overhearing this kind of thing, and ultimately all those folks were transferred to another department (so they had new management) and based in part on that information grandness was fired. Especially if this is something that happens (not a one-time thing) and if you have others to corroborate your story I would highly recommend going to HR. Because what your boss did was to have a conversation containing employee confidential information (performance assessment) in a highly inappropriate manner (lack of confidentiality due to volume of conversation and open doors). HR should be concerned, because she should know better – and because if she’s found it on purpose, it could be considered bullying, intimidation, or hostile work environment.

  3. Sleepy*

    A friend of mine visited from abroad recently, and apparently where she lives it’s quite common for staff to use their lunch time to take a quick nap – it’s not a company thing, more of a cultural thing.

    I don’t know about lunch hour, but usually around 3pm I start thinking about how I could really benefit from a 20-minute Powell nap, and I’d be quite happy to give up 20 minutes of my lunch time to fit that in (assuming it’s not the middle of a meeting or anything of course!). Alas, that simply doesn’t fly here.

    Side note: I went to primary school in that country, and I remember mandatory ‘heads down’ times – you didn’t have to be asleep, but the rule was you stoped working for a short period of time so students could recharge (I don’t know for sure but I assume the teachers stayed awake during this time). I thought it was silly back then, but I kind of miss it now!

    1. Yams*

      Oh yeah, afternoon naps are the best. I’m very thankful my job lets me go home for lunch, that way I can just eat, take a short nap (if I want! no pressure), and then head back very refreshed.

    2. Seal*

      The last time I had mandated nap time was in kindergarten. Everyone had a nap mat, the lights were turned off and we were supposed to at least lay down and be quiet for the duration. We all hated mandated nap time back then, but I’d absolutely love it as an adult!

      1. Christmas Carol*

        Followed up with a half-pint of milk and a graham cracker square. Little did we know that was the best it was ever going to get

        1. Seal*

          I forgot about the milk! Although as an adult I’m lactose intolerant, so no milk after my nap these days.

    3. Where's my coffee?*

      We had a nap room at a prior job. It was fantastic. People occasionally napped there, but it was also used when someone just needed a quiet break or to help quell an incoming headache, since it was dimly-lit and didn’t allow laptops or talking.

      1. working abroad*

        Yes, I’ve temped at a PR firm in Beverly Hills that had a “mental health” room where you could check out a key from the front desk and go into a comfortable, dark room and take some time for whatever–nap, have a private call, cry, etc. It was supposed to be used by only one person at a time, though. I was surprised at how few people actually utilized it!

      2. working abroad*

        Yes, I temped at a PR firm in Beverly Hills that had a “mental health” room where you could check out a key from the front desk and go into a comfortable, dark room and take some time for whatever–nap, have a private call, cry, etc. It was supposed to be used by only one person at a time, though. I was surprised at how few people actually utilized it!

    4. Goya de la Mancha*

      I’m very pro-nap, I always have been actually. I’m the type of person that wiggles down into the bedding and giggles because I get to SLEEP!!!

      I would love if our culture allowed naps at work. That being said…I would find it very hard to deal with communal nap rooms. It would weird me out I think to share a sleeping space with others. Maybe with headphones/eye mask, but I don’t know if that would work.

    5. SophieChotek*

      When I visited my company’s HQ, 90 minutes for lunch was the norm. People literally brought a pillow and laid their head on their desk. that said, it made the day go later – I would have preferred 30 mins for lunch and be done earlier — though I could see the appeal of a nap. (I remember the “heads down” time in lower grades in the USA too!)

    6. Leah*

      Ahhh, siesta, you beautiful bastard. I always get so tired after lunch, and I just crave for a future job that offers a decompressing room with couches and bean bags for you to have some quiet time for yourself. I wish I lived in a country were siestas were normalized, but alas, I’ll just have to stick to daydreaming.

      1. Healthnerd*

        Awhile back our department was encouraging employees to meditate 10 minutes each day as a part of their wellness initiative. I’m horrible at mediating and would inevitable 10 min power nap but what a world of difference it would make for my afternoon energy level. Sometimes I will still find an empty room (in an open office plan now), turn off the lights and play a meditation app to give me a pick me up in the afternoon. Much more effective than coffee.

          1. lurkalittletalkalittle*

            Not OP, but the app “Calm” (I have on ios, probably exists on Android, too) has some decent options (nature noises, a handful of quick meditative sessions) in its unpaid form.

    7. Karo*

      I’m in the U.S., so it’s definitely not culture here, but I regularly take lunch naps in my car. I have a pillow and everything!

      1. CMart*

        Same! Especially since I own a hybrid car now, so when it’s otherwise too hot/cold I can run it with little guilt since it would mostly pull from the battery.

        Even just laying back and shutting my eyes for 20 minutes helps SO MUCH. Being able to allow my body to droop, rather than fighting it for hours, makes a world of difference.

    8. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      The best job I ever had, my apartment was literally right next door to my office. We got an hour lunch break and I would totally go home and nap almost everyday.

    9. Bostonian*

      Aaaah yes, work naps! When I worked night shift, people definitely used their cars or empty conference rooms to take a nap during their (clocked out) lunch.

      Now that I work day shift, I definitely feel the 1:30-2:30 pm drag. I don’t know if anyone else does this at my current (exempt) job, but we have dozens (it’s a large campus) of private rooms that you can book for either pumping or relaxation… perfect for quick naps!

    10. D.W.*

      At my last place of employment we had a nap room, and I was in their faithfully! If not there, then I’d sleep outside when the weather was nice.

      I’ve moved and there’s no where to do that unless I book a conference room. And now that I live in a major city, I would never just sleep outside. So I zombie it through the day sometimes.

    11. Delphine*

      I am intensely pro-napping and I would love for it to be more acceptable to take a 20-minute siesta during lunch.

    12. Nervous Accountant*

      When I’m desperate to get away I go to the bathroom. Seriously. Lock myself in the stall, put a timer on my phone and just close my eyes. Not the most comfortable but at least no ones going to bother me. we don’t track people’s bathroom Trips.

      1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        I’ve totally done this too! If I’m just so sleepy I’m not functioning, ten minutes in the bathroom with my head propped up on my knees and my eyes closed is close enough to a nap to get me back to functioning.

        I’d love to work somewhere with nap pods…

    13. H.C.*

      Thankfully my workplace has an indoor garage so some days I’ll take a late lunch hour to squeeze in some shut-eye in my car.

    14. Overeducated needs a new name*

      Standing up helps if you can get a standing desk! I just did and it definitely counteracts the post-lunch fatigue. But yes, I wish we had nap breaks too….

    15. Chaordic One*

      I used to have a coworker who would go out to his car in the parking lot and take a short nap during his lunch hour. (He had an alarm clock in the car.)

    16. SkyePilot*

      At a previous job I had a cubicle that afforded me some privacy and sometimes during my lunch I would set a timer for 15 minutes, pop on my headphones, and “watch” an educational webinar (on mute) with my chin propped up. It also helped that we were allowed to bring dogs to work, so I knew my doggo would alert me if anyone came over to my desk while I was taking a powder.

      1. amy l*

        Lots of people here go out to their car (we have a parking garage) and nap. Pretty common, I think. If the weather is cold or hot, it’s not uncommon to walk by seemingly empty vehicles that are running – for heat and A/C. I worked in a building once that was about 50% occupied. The floor below us was completely vacant. We would walk down the back stairwell, find an open office, lock the door and nap. Some had desks so you could sit and put your head down, or you could sit in the floor in a corner, leaning back against the wall.

    17. Angela Ziegler*

      One of my co-workers was just telling me how she went out to her car during lunch for a quick power-nap. It seemed to work, and it wasn’t a problem whatsoever!

    18. CMart*

      I worked from home a couple days ago and took a 20 minute “nap” during my usual lunch break. I maybe actually dozed off for 10 minutes. It was shockingly rejuvenating!

      I still have access to the pumping-mothers’ room in my office and occasionally consider going down there for a power nap. Haven’t done it yet, but the thought is really tempting.

    20. Thlayli*

      In Spain and a lot of former Spanish colonies they still do siesta times. It’s not so common in big offices but out in the country and in tourist areas it’s pretty common. In Argentina it seems to be the most extreme siesta – lots of Argentinians have their main sleep in the middle of the day and only a few hours at night.

    21. The Office Napper*

      I work at a university full time and am taking classes part-time for my MS. I’m also pregnant. This semester I had a class that met one night a week. Luckily I’m one of the few people in my area who have a private office, my lunch break on that one day a week was spent sleeping under my desk during my first trimester.

      I was worried about being spotted (my boss knew but others in the office did not) so I built something of a fort with a blanket covering the opening. It may not have been the most professional thing to do but it allowed me to not literally fall asleep staring at my computer by the end of the day or end up crying out of exhaustion.

    22. Wintermute*

      Working third shift I take naps in my car all the time, even though we only have a half-hour lunch, it’s much needed sometimes. Even 25 minutes can make you feel like a whole new person and let you finish out the day strong.

    23. G*

      I recently heard about the napping culture in Japan. Over there it is actually encouraged for people to fall asleep whilst working because it means that you worked so hard that you tired yourself out. Apparently some people pretend to be asleep to look like hard workers.

      1. Mad Baggins*

        I wouldn’t say it’s /encouraged/ or that people pretend to fall asleep, but it’s definitely common for people to put their heads down on their desk at lunch, and it’s not /as/ big a deal to fall asleep in meetings or at your desk here. My old boss used to fall asleep at his desk or in meetings with pencil in hand, and if you talked to him he’d perk up and respond like he had a jolt of caffeine! We said he was “recharging”!

    25. Fish Microwaver*

      I’m trying to advocate for a quiet room at work where people can decompress or try to ward off a migraine or just take 5. I work in a call centre and the noise, stress and constant computer work can be very tiring. A few of us are migraine sufferers and being able to sit/lie in a quiet dark room could be the difference between finishing our shift or going home early. Some companies allow it.
      https://www.inc.com/zoe-henry/google-uber-and-other-companies-where-you-can-nap-at-the-office.html

  4. Promotion fake-out*

    My organization is so messed up. In December senior management told me I’d be getting a promotion in January. I specifically asked and they confirmed it would be a manager title job (I’m a “team lead” now, aka worst of all worlds.) January came and went and they told me the promotion was postponed. Finally last week they told me that I would be taking on the responsibility of my alleged promotion (managing a department that brings in a third of the org’s revenue), plus a significant portion of my previous duties, plus yet more duties…. But my title and pay will remain the same.

    I complained and my manager (the same one who originally discussed the promotion with me) said he’d “fight” for me. I just know if/when he gets me that title he’ll expect to be thanked as if it’s a gift he’s giving me and not something previously promised and owed to me. Ugh. I need to get the hell out of here.

    2. DowntheUpstaircase*

      In light of your job duties changing, can you request a new written job description? Something that accurately reflects your responsibilities.

    3. Boredatwork*

      Good lord, the things some of you guys put up with! Can you politely decline the promotion? Say in light of the lack of job title change and increase in salary you are unable to take on any additional responsibility?

      This of course is a horrible double edge sword, where it could limit your growth, and management will be VERY annoyed they can’t make you do more work for the same amount of money. If you already have one foot out of the door, take the position, update your resume and GTFO.

    4. Artemesia*

      Get the promotion and keep looking for a new job at your leisure with no pressure. Hope one comes through. No greater pleasure than walking away from a badly managed organization. (and even more so after they ‘fight for you’ to get what should be obviously given)

    5. Goya de la Mancha*

      While a raise in pay is right to be expected for taking on all those extra duties, I find job titles to be so tricky since they vary from location to location.

      I applied last year for a job that was titled very high in my career hierarchy. Since their company is smaller then my current one though, their structure is obviously different. I was offered the job after all the interviews and while I would have had a GREAT title to add to my resume – my responsibilities/skills/pay would have been taking steps backwards!

    6. BRR*

      I’m sorry that happened. I’m going through something similar where I was told I would be receiving a promotion last year but between getting a new manager and my previous managers not keeping any records, the prospects look dim. Bring up that I was told this was in the works hasn’t gotten me anywhere.

    7. WellRed*

      If he was going to “fight” for you, he would have already done it. Otherwise, you’d have the title and raise.

      1. Paperclip Plenipotentiary*

        Titles are free.

        And in a job interview, much better to have to let some air out of an inflated job title than have to pump up a crappy sounding one.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Play the game. Tell him thanks. You don’t have to gush, you can just use a “hey, thanks”. The silently finish the rest of the sentence in your head, “…for over promising and under delivering…” or whatever.

      You will not lose a part of yourself by thanking him AND he is needy enough that he needs that thanks. He will lose MORE of himself if he is not thanked than you will lose of yourself by thanking him. I hope my sentence here makes sense….

      1. Specialk9*

        Or you can very warmly say something like “it means a lot to me that you have there integrity to make sure the company delivers on its promises. I know that can be an uphill battle sometimes.”

        The first is a bit pointed, and the second makes it sound like you and he are facing together against the ones who break promises. There is power in telling someone that you see them as someone who does X good thing, because most of us think of ourselves as fairly decent people. (But also then you’re not thanking him for only partially screwing you over.)

        Get the title, start job searching.

    9. Green Goose*

      Can you say something like, “before I agree to take on these additional duties in an interim capacity I need to discuss my compensation.”

      I had to do this when my manager left unexpectedly and it was decided that I would not get a promotion and they would not add a second person to my department. It was terrifying in the moment but they ended up giving me a very generous raise, but they would not have if I hadn’t pushed back.

  5. Beancat*

    I’m quite possibly lined up for a second interview with a company where I had a first interview that felt really strong! What sorts of things can I expect from a second interview? What might be different from the first one? Thanks in advance!

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I think it depends a lot on your field and level. Did they give you any idea of what to expect? (Duration, who you’d be meeting with, etc). In general, you can expect them to go more in depth on questions about your experiences for the position, as well as possibly to meet with additional stakeholders (which might involve rehashing some of what you’ve already discussed). Often, a second interview is a good time for a work-related task for them to assess your skills in a hands-on way; I’ve had a few cases where those are sprung on me without warning but in general I’ve been asked to prepare something prior to the interview.

      1. Beancat*

        Well, I was told the second interview would either be directly with the client or just a second round if they had a lot of qualified candidates to narrow down but wasn’t given any indication other than that. It’s still good to know I may be expected to work on a task, so thank you!

    2. Starley*

      It will vary a lot from company to company but in my experience, the questions go further in depth with “how would you handle this” type of questions. I’ve also seen a lot more assessment of fit vs. the basic “can you do this job” type of discussion, which is also what I tend to do when hiring. Best of luck!

      1. Beancat*

        I suspected maybe behavioral questions would be on the table! I appreciate your insight from the hiring side as well. Thanks for the well wishes!

      2. Betsy*

        Oh, that’s a good point! I forgot to prepare for behavioural questions in my last interview, even though I’d thought of all kinds of other possible questions, done my research, and done a practice interview. I kind of blew the behavioural question due to the lack of planning. So don’t be me!

    3. it_guy*

      Expect to talk to : More senior and or junior people. Senior people want to find out if you fit in the company and can sing the company theme song, and Junior people want to find out if you’re a total troll.

      This would also be a good time if it hasn’t come up before to talk benefits and such.

      1. Beancat*

        Thank you – that’s all really good to know! Also amazing icon :) He actually laid benefits out for me at the first interview which I thought was unusual, but I was glad to have more information!

    4. A ninny mouse*

      In my experience, a first interview is usually more general – “Tell me about your strength/weaknesses, are you a team player etc.”

      The second is usually more job specific – ‘how familiar are you with software X? So if I asked you this technical questions, how would you respond?’ ‘When would you pass on a complaint to management and when would you deal with it yourself’ etc

      2. Tiny Orchid*

        That’s so interesting! At my organization, the first round is usually to assess technical qualifications, and the second round is to assess culture fit.

        1. A ninny mouse*

          Very interesting – I work in a technical field, so usually the first interview at my company is by someone in HR (who doesn’t have the background to ask technical questions). The second and third rounds are by a manager, who can ask more detailed questions related to the work

    5. Stranger than fiction*

      Not to get you too excited, but all three times I’ve been invited for the second interview, it’s been to meet to President, CEO, or owner, (like a final sniff test), and then they presented me with the offer.
      I’m mid-career, experienced level, non-manager. Like others say, it depends on the field and career level. My BF is mid-manager level and he’s been on all day second interviews with multiple stakeholders. So I know tbis varies widely.

      1. Beancat*

        I’m definitely not holding my breath but appreciate the viewpoint! Thank you for that!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, the only time I’ve done a second interview was at my last company (insurance), and I met with the corporate office’s AVP and SVP to determine culture/program fit. I wasn’t even mid-career, but they were both actively involved in the trainee program I was interviewing for, so they wanted to get a feel for me since the hiring manager (who was a director at the time) was only so-so on me.

  6. Librarian Ish*

    I’ve been refreshing this page all morning. Today I learned that Niccolo Machiavelli’s The Prince was originally written as a job application. This makes me feel much better and also much worse about any resume I’ve ever written hahaha

      2. nep*

        My MA thesis never happened — for ridiculous ‘reasons’ I stopped my MA program a little more than mid-way through.

  7. Processing and Processing*

    How long should I expect for a transition from one system to another begin to run smoothly? Especially when the client does not upgrade their processes and systems.
    Background notes: This is a pilot program. Fifteen months ago we were asked to begin transitioning the client. It took the client and their secondary vendor 4 months to get their systems in place. It took an additional 4 months to get into a routine. Can I expect at some point it will really come together as intended or is this the new normal? The “new normal” being extra work because the old processes do not “talk” to the new one, so I have to constantly baby sit the project. They want daily interaction in the system.
    I believe they are attempting to streamline two departments, but instead of actually rebuilding the processes from the ground up they keep adding more processes on top of the old ones.
    Lastly, as far as the pilot program. Our org has a decades long relationship with client. Client is not known for eliminating programs. They just adding more processes. I actually have little faith that we will even be told if pilot program is a success or not.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I don’t know what kind of systems you’re using, but I’ve been through three migrations of websites from one platform to another, and in my experience there are ALWAYS things you need to fix after it goes live. Often for six months to a year, just to get things working as good as they did in the old system, even counting the better features of the new system. So if the expectation was that the project could be completely put to rest once the new system was in place and everyone was trained, I think that was a planning failure that led to unreasonable expectations rather than a technical or training issue.

      With the old processes not talking to the new one and adding more processes on top, it sounds like the whole architecture and planning phase was botched. My guess is that the requirements should have been investigated and tested a lot more thoroughly, and now instead of going back to rebuild the process properly, it’s being tinkered with, which can create its own problems.

      Of course, I’m talking about all this from an information architecture and project planning standpoint. I’m not sure if your technical systems and processes work the same way as the ones I work with, but from the limited information given, those are the things I noticed.

      1. Processing and Processing*

        Thanks Cosmic, you said things I have been expressing myself.
        The system will never be put to rest so to speak, but hearing you say six months to a year makes me feel a little better. It has almost been a year, so the time frame is ok.

        “It sounds like the whole architecture and planning phase was botched.” It really was. They had the wrong people involved, VPs not workers, didn’t ask the right questions and didn’t adequately listen to concerns. That aside, because sometimes clients are like that. ugh

        Thank you again.

        1. Samiratou*

          “They had the wrong people involved, VPs not workers, didn’t ask the right questions and didn’t adequately listen to concerns.”

          This type of thing, sadly, is endemic to corporations, and adds years and ridiculous amounts of money to projects that could be avoided if they actually talked to the people who use the systems and get them involved in the process.

          In my company, your scenario above about “adding more” instead of rebuilding is common, and trying to kludge systems together like that will require constant maintenance. Think of it as job security.

          1. Processing and Processing*

            Job security. Yeah, that’s a good way to look at it.

            I think the worst part is that the client did it to save money, and possibly outsource a department. What they inadvertently did was give said department more job security. I know the department has struggled with it more than our company has. The entire project cannot work without their constant input too.

            If they had built it bottom up, they could have eliminated a lot of jobs. So, yes, I am thankful. I appreciate the excellent points Samiratou and the commiseration!

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          We have some great VPs, but I would not want most of them to be in charge of a migration. You need a dedicated project manager, and even among the talented PMs I’ve worked with, they had varying degrees of skill at eliciting requirements and setting expectations. Both of those are absolutely crucial when designing a system for clients, which is basically what you have to do to plan out the new platform/process.

          And also, the whole migration process, including training in a new platform, took 1-2 years each time.

          1. Processing and Processing*

            Ok, wow. I will back my expectations way down, since I am only in month 10!

            Thanks again CA and Sam! It means so much to be able to reach out to this supportive community and get good info.

    2. Jadelyn*

      My team is a bit over 2 years in on a new system (going from a couple of separate systems for employee data and payroll to a single all-in-one HRIS) and it’s really only in the last couple months that we’ve started to get everything to “gel” in a way that’s an actual improvement on our old patchwork of multiple systems. Our implementation was also botched – we got some very bad advice from the vendor from people who have since been fired, and like you our implementation people on our own side were mostly higher-ups who don’t actually *use* the system themselves.

      Why is it that the old processes don’t interface with the new ones, out of curiosity? Is that something they’d let you work on, or is it inherent in either/both systems and not something you can change?

    3. SpaceNovice*

      Just reading your top comment and the replies, I feel for you. Can’t really offer any advice because you don’t have the power to change things out of your hands, but I fully sympathize. There’s only so much you can do when someone is unwilling to change. Transitions can take a while to get to a point where everything is running smoothly again, but your customer is going to be a huge roadblock to that.

    4. Susan Calvin*

      Oh boy, do I ever know what you’re talking about.

      If you’re an external vendor/consultant/…, then hopefully you’ve got some kind of SoW or other doc in hand that defines your scope. If you’re still there multiple months after you expected to leave, and your own org isn’t mismanaged enough to let you work for free without anyone noticing, you’re either racking up extra billable hours for the client, or whoever made the initial calculations for this project misplaced a decimal point somewhere.

      Ergo, it’s in everyone’s best interest to get a grip on this. What we normally do, for customers who need more after-live support than anticipated, is to collect all out-of-scope requests for a while, make estimates, and then hand this to the customer with a request to prioritize. “Next [month/quarter] you can get X man-days for [price], please let us know what you’d like to see done then.” Key is to bundle stuff, not get tangled up chasing after every daily whim of some key user or another.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Spot on advice, this is pretty much what we’ve done before, although it sounds like our circumstances are more flexible and we’re more dedicated to supporting this one client full-time than P&P.

        1. Processing and Processing*

          You got it CA. My role actually has no control with their processes. But their processes hinder my ability to perform certain functions for the client and other vendor.

          CA, Sam, Jadelyn, Space and Susan thank you. It seems I am not alone in my experiences. It is very reassuring to read that others have gone through the same thing.

          I am smirking at Susan’s comment about daily whims – YES!

          Space’s comment about the customer being the biggest roadblock. – YES!

          Jadely’s question about the systems not talking to each other. I wish I knew. The industry is notoriously stingy and I suspect the cost of actually making the whole thing work correctly is prohibitive for them.

          I would expect that these exercises make the customer realize that they need to revamp the whole thing, but the speed which this large organization reacts is agonizingly slow. Thank you all so very much.

  8. Underpaid*

    If you know you are being underpaid compared to your coworkers doing similar work, should you bring this up when negotiating for a raise? Or is it better to be general and say your salary is below market?

    For some context, even though I negotiated for more when I hired into my current job, I accepted a salary that I thought was slightly below market for my skill set/expertise because I “knew” employers in this sector tended to pay below market and I really wanted the job. Now almost two years in, after conversations with co-workers and some more extensive research, I’ve come to find that my salary is below market not just for positions outside my organization, but also within it (even when accounting for education level, years of experience, responsibilities, etc.). As an example, a colleague who’s senior to me by only two years is currently making 25% more than me, which is a full 50% more than my original offer before I negotiated.

    Allison’s recent post in asking for a raise was super helpful, but I’m specifically wondering if I should I bring this point up in my negotiation (not the specific numbers, but rather the internal inequity of pay)? Or do I rely on the information I’ve gathered about the market in general? To me it seems like a clear case of internal inequity, and it counters what they often fall back on about salaries just being low in this sector (it is what it is, our hands are tied, etc.). But I’m also concerned bringing up the internal inequity might come off as whiny or immature (i.e., “It’s not fair!”). Based on the feedback I’ve gotten about the caliber of my work, I know I’m deserving of more, but I’m just not sure if raising the point of internal inequity will help or hurt me in making my case.

    1. a-no*

      I think I’d phrase it as “Market value for my skill & experience is X and I’d like to come up to that because of X, Y, Z that I’ve done/contributed to the company” but I’d likely use the market value number as the co-workers salary. Then if they come back lower, you’ve hit the target you want.
      I think using the internal inequity as a Plan B – like if they come back and say ‘salaries are just low’ or the like, wouldn’t be the worst idea but I don’t think you should lead with it.

      1. Underpaid*

        Love the idea of having the internal inequity in my back pocket as a plan B – thank you!

      2. Specialk9*

        I’d also look into any gender inequities. Then you can use one of Alison’s ‘I’m worried that we might be exposing ourselves to illegal gender discrimination here’ kind of scripts.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      I think it really depends on your boss and the relationship you have with them. I had a work friend who took the route that everyone was being paid more than her and got a raise, but she had an amazing relationship with her boss and knew her boss would have her back.

      1. Underpaid*

        Yes this context is super helpful. I do have a very good mentor relationship with my boss and I know he would advocate for me. Thanks for this insight!

      2. Lil Fidget*

        Yes, the typical advice is not to use this information because you’re supposed to be talking about your own value, but I had a good relationship with my boss and was able to explain that I knew people with my same title and similar experience in our own org were making 10K more than me – and he was great about it, took it seriously and bumped my salary (not by 10K but by something). I have seen bosses react badly though, by trying to “punish” the other employee who shared their wages or tell the employee that wants a raise that they shouldn’t be asking other people’s salary, so it can really go either way.

        1. Specialk9*

          Which is illegal btw. You have the right to discuss salary, though many companies lie about this and have policies forbidding it. If a manager says that, it’s good to remember that’s illegal in the YD

      3. Happy Lurker*

        Take Lil Fidget, and the others, advice about your market value. The story about my friend is really a one off and I would not recommend it. The relationship they had was very unique. I have only had 1 boss relationship like that in 30 years.

      4. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        I had this situation way back when. I started as an associate at a small law firm about 4 weeks after my friend and although we were hired at the same level and the same book of business (plus we had the same legal experience for the most part), I was paid $10K less than my friend. I brought it up to our boss, and he gave some sorry reason that he had to reward my friend for her extra 4 weeks of labor. But he added that if I proved myself, he would make our salaries match when it came time to getting a raise again in 12 months.

        So I would go into the office between 7 am and 8 am every day, and my friend would show up between 9 am and 9:30 am, and we’d leave at the same time. After the first six months, I did the math and I had made up the extra 4 weeks of time that had separated my friend and I when I was hired. I got constant feedback from the boss that I was doing great work.

        When it came time to the annual raise, I got the $10K raise to match what my friend made when she started. I figured this meant my friend didn’t get any raise given the prior comments of our boss. I was all set to be sad for her, but when I spoke to my friend, she got the same raise, so I was still $10K behind what she was making. In response, I scaled back on my time in the office to match my coworker and the boss didn’t care at all. Both my friend and I saw the writing on the wall, and we were both out of there within 8 months. The firm ended up folding about 3 years after we left.

        A good boss will remedy the pay inequity. A bad boss won’t.

    3. DowntheUpstaircase*

      If you are asking for right-sizing, keep your emotional focus on the fact that you are asking for money based on what the position is paid at across your company/industry/market. Not what individual people are being paid.

      You are not asking for what Fergus gets, or saying no fair, Shellington is paid X. You are asking for the pay within the market range, for specific skills. And for the company to remain competitive, they need to address any inequity – it is not personal, it is business.

      1. Underpaid*

        This framing is so helpful. You’re right that I wouldn’t be saying “Fergus is paid X, pay me that or else.” It is that the market, both internal and external, for my skill set is X and I need to be brought up to that level. Thanks for your perspective!

    4. Lala*

      I think it’s worth mentioning. I used a similar argument to have my position reclassed into the correct salary rank (the previous boss and the person in the position before me had both done a poor job of articulating what the position involved the last time HR evaluated salary rank), which meant an automatic pay raise for me. It took a year because of HR red tape, but it has made such a difference. Internal equity gave my boss a good reason to argue my case for reranking to HR beyond “this is a really good employee”.

      1. Underpaid*

        Funny you should mention this, because I also think that lack of clarity in my position may have contributed to why my original offer was so low. Good to know internal inequity can be a useful tool not just for the individual, but also for their boss in making a case with the org. at large. Thanks!

    5. LowMoraleMarch*

      Related, I have a similar situation where I hope to receive guidance. I am the lowest paid person but do 2-3 times the volume of projects and supervise far more staff that my colleagues do. One colleague told me the other day that they were bored in their position and had to hunt for things to do while I did not get a lunch because an urgent problem only I could fix had to be addressed. Due to a technicality even a colleague that started a couple of years after me now makes the same salary. Should I just give up and start looking for a job that pays more? We all received a very small raise and my boss, who is aware of the work disparities, has failed to get me a merit raise so I don’t think things will change.

      1. Underpaid*

        Yikes! That’s a really tricky situation. Have you spoken with your boss directly about this? What’s your boss’ explanation/reasoning been when not giving you a raise? I think only you can decide for yourself whether you should leave or not, but I’d probably be sure to have a direct conversation with your boss about it first, and possibly even hint at the fact that you can make more taking your skills elsewhere.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        If you’ve named the problem and asked for the specific raise you want (like, you said the number out loud to your boss) and they haven’t done anything, then yes – it’s time for you to start job searching, because they’re not going to fix this. But many people are hoping their boss will read their minds and spontaneously offer the raise they want – I have never once seen this work out. So it’s worth asking clearly once.

      3. Marcy Marketer*

        I would leave.

        Talk to your boss once. Say “I handle 4x more projects and manage the most people, but I have the lowest pay. We will need to bring my salary up to $X for me to stay in this role long term.” If he says okay, ask for a specific time frame and then start job hunting from the minute you leave his office.

      4. Close Bracket*

        > my boss, who is aware of the work disparities, has failed to get me a merit raise

        Do you mean at various times in the past or during the most recent review cycle, which I guess is therefore over? During your review is the best time to ask for raises, but if that ship has sailed for the year, schedule a meeting with your boss so you can talk about it uninterrupted. Tell them it’s to talk about your career trajectory or some such thing.

        Merit raises and quantity of work level raises are not the same, although there is only one bucket of funds available. The advice for you is similar- make your pitch on your own work, not on the comparison to other people’s workload. Make the case that you are working at a higher level than you were at your last raise, if you ever got one, or at the time of hiring, if you have never had a raise. If your only raises, assuming you have had any, have been cost of living raises, make your pitch for a larger raise bc this is about the value you give to the company, not about the cost of groceries.

      5. Tootsiemoll*

        Ask for a title change and salary raise that reflects the extra duties you have. Make sure that you focus on the duties that are higher level, and stress the supervision of staff as important points of your job. Side note, has your boss ever had a discussion about your career development plan? What is the next step for you? How are you being prepared for promotion? Because it shouldn’t be ‘work really hard and wait for someone to notice’. It should be, ‘what do you need experience in, what are the assignments that can raise your visibility, where are the opportunities in our company in the next few years, and how can we prepare you.’

      6. Specialk9*

        Yes, you should. Definitely. Job hopping every few years is usually the best way to increase your salary.

    6. J.B.*

      I think it would help to prepare bullet points for both scenarios. Market rate is x, you are asking to be brought up to it for reasons a, b and c. I would also ask that as soon as possible, don’t wait for review time. Internal equity analysis should compare you to the group, not just to one individual. One individual opens the door to he gets more because of some specific reason. Good luck.

    7. Alice*

      I would be very careful to reference others’ salaries in your request. Depending on how you came by the information, it could backfire badly. I knew someone who, when they finished their MBA program, put a proposal together requesting a pay raise, but they used internal salary data that they had access to as part of their job (in HR) as part of their reasoning, and ended up getting fired for accessing her peers’ informaiton (you’d think an HR person would know better). I think it’s better to cite external market, or, if your company has published pay ranges, where you fall in the range.

    8. Safetykats*

      The thing is, if the people being paid more for the same work at similar experience levels are in your group, your boss already knows they are being paid more. I don’t think you need to show numbers for coworkers salaries (and I wouldn’t) but you can and probably should state that you have reason to believe your not only underpaid in the grand scheme of things but also as assessed internally.

  9. Anonforthismonth*

    I am a freelancer and was looking for advice on applying for part time work. I’m not looking for anything special just something I can do part time to get me out of the house and get my dose of human interaction. But what do you say to employers who ask why you want this position? Because boiled down all I keep coming up with is I just need a reason to get out of the house once in a while…

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think that depends on the type of work. With retail, you can always say that you love the store’s products and your desk job keeps you from interacting with people. I don’t think that’s a bad thing; retail is all about being with people, and enthusiasm for customer service can be hard to come by. If you’re thinking of, say, ticket sales at a museum, same thing applies. In other words, for many part-time jobs, it’s a good thing to want to get out and be with people. So it’s less about “I need to get out of the house” and more, “I love being around people”.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree – especially with retail/food service, most of the time they won’t want you FT (because of benefits, etc.). Obviously the only bad thing about retail/food service is the schedule can vary widely from week to week. Generally (I think anyway) one doesn’t want to go in as the new employee with demands like “I’ll only work between 10 and 4pm and no weekends or holidays” but if you are like “Oh I’ll take anything, I just don’t want to work more than X a week” you’ll get anything!

        The focus on the desire to interact with people/enjoying customer service/liking the product (or food) is probably all you need.

        1. Xarcady*

          Do ask about scheduling. I have a part-time retail job at a major US chain of department stores. The scheduling is done by computer. But for retail, I have a fair amount of control over when I can be scheduled to work.

          As a part-timer, you do have to be available Friday evenings and all day Saturday and Sunday. But I can choose the hours I am available on the other days of the week, and even pick one day a week where they can’t schedule me at all. Because I temp full time, this means I can pick just evening closing shifts during the week.

          But smaller stores with less staff are probably not going to be as flexible.

          1. Al Lo*

            When I worked at Starbucks, you had to be available 150% of your requested hours. So, for instance, if you wanted to work 16 hours/week, you needed to be available for 24. That seemed very reasonable to me. Now, if you’re hired for a specific shift, you probably need to keep that in mind, but I didn’t feel like I had to stay available 100% of the time; I just needed to be open for 24 hours/week.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Another idea – if it’s really just about human interaction and you don’t care about the money at all, perhaps there would be volunteering opportunities that either a) fit your skills or b) your interests or c)causes you support or d) some combination thereof.

      While some volunteer jobs are much more strict about hours/shifts, etc., some are much more relaxed. It probably depends on the institution and how many volunteers.

      For instance, I volunteer at a local food shelf and I can pretty much say “I’m coming in tomorrow” and they are “great”…

      1. Easily Amused*

        I was thinking volunteering might fit the bill as well. I have periodically volunteered with a local animal rescue group that has a full-time care facility. Opportunities included helping out at adoption events, transporting animals, fostering short or long term, or just going to the facility to walk dogs. One time I showed up and was asked “can you play with these puppies to help socialize them?” Why yes, yes I can please and thank you!

    3. HB*

      I used to live in a mountain resort town and I love to bake so I applied at a very high end resort bakery. Since it was a mountain resort summer and winter were very busy but the shoulder seasons were quite slow. They were thrilled that I was flexible with scheduling and I was able to work when times were busy and still take off/travel without it being an event asking for vacation time. Some weeks I would work full time, others maybe just a day depending on how busy the resort was. I worked there for 8 years and loved it. Depending on what you like to do some employers/industries might be thrilled with that scenario.

    4. Been There*

      I waitressed at a pub for a while for this reason. The hiring manager was skeptical about why a middle-aged woman with a graduate degree would want to be a server. I joked that I was losing my people skills, and explained that I wanted something steady that would let me be both physically and mentally active.

      I also pointed out that I am extremely reliable. I think that part really hit home, considering his employee roster was a sea of 18-22 year-olds who kept calling off with hangovers.

    5. atexit8*

      There is nothing wrong with saying that you are looking for a job to fit with another job.
      I know people who work 2 part-time jobs to add up to 1 full-time job.

      They don’t have to know you are a freelancer.
      I would actually keep that under wraps; otherwise, they may schedule for crazy hours thinking you are “flexible”.

    6. Bea*

      Part time gigs tend to LOVE someone like you. You’re truly part time, no worry about you hoping to gain more hours or eventually going full time.

      I would say exactly that you’re looking for something different and interacting with people. That would be a good for for front desk relief or reception as well as cashiering or hosting etc.

    7. working abroad*

      If you live in a bigger city, try temping. I freelanced in Los Angeles in TV Production as my main job, and had a temp agency that would check my availability and offer me stuff on my off days or between gigs. It was fascinating because I got to see the work environment of so many cool companies. One day I may work the front desk at Red Bull, the next I may answer phones at a super trendy tech startup, the next I may fill in for the Personal Assistant of an investment firm. Most of the places I temped had really nice perks too–free drinks and snacks, breakfast bars, super cheap all-organic and healthy cafeterias. Good money, as well!

    8. Tootsiemoll*

      Wrong focus, the question is not really ‘why do you want this (a) job?’ It is actually, ‘why do you think this job is a good fit for you?’

      Because otherwise 90% of the people would say, I want this job because I need money. Also if getting out of the House was your only reason, you could volunteer and work for free.

    9. Specialk9*

      Why don’t you look into shared office space, like Workbar? You’ll get out of the house, see the same people, etc.

  10. MissingArizona*

    I’m about to start my job hunting, and I’m going for regular m-f 9-5 administration type work, but I have a vacation already planned and paid for in 2 months. If it takes a while to even obtain employment, that means I’ll either still be interviewing, or just about to start working, right at my vacation time. Should I put off the job search for a few more weeks, or would employers actually be ok with “hey I’m going to Hawaii for 10 days!”?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would keep interviewing and then once you get an offer, let them know that you have a pre-planned vacation. Most employers will be willing to work with you on allowing an existing (and paid-for) vacation take place.

    2. An Underemployed Millennial*

      I would start the job search now and then when you get an offer let them know about your vacation. I haven’t personally been in this situation but I know someone who has and that’s what they did.

    3. Ambpersand*

      They should be fine with it. I was in a similar position a few years ago when I got my current position, and I was headed to Europe for 10 days between my interview and start date. It might not be an issue if you don’t get any interviews at first, but if it does fall during your vacation you can just say that you’re going to be unavailable for in-person interviews or to start (after they’ve offered the job to you, of course) between the dates of X and X due to an out of town trip. Obviously you can still answer emails or do a phone screens/interviews while on vacation, but they should be understanding.

    4. Turquoisecow*

      Most of the time, if you tell them you have a pre-planned vacation, employers are willing to work around it, whether that means postponing your start date or just accepting you won’t be there. I’ve had this happen a couple times, and in fact when the job offer was all ready, the hiring manager or HR usually would ask if I had any travel plans in the near future they needed to know about.

      My current employer has a “town hall” meeting once a month during which new employees are mentioned. One guy was not present for his introduction because shortly after being hired, he left on his honeymoon! There was some good natured ribbing about how the brand new guy was taking all this time off, but no one held it against him and he was re-introduced at the following meeting.

    5. KRM*

      I have been in this situation. I got a callback from a place while I was on the planned vacation, and just e-mailed that I was currently on vacation but could be there anytime after the date I was coming home. They scheduled the interview for after and never batted an eye. I would think you don’t have to say anything unless they call you to schedule before you leave (and then you just say “I’m out of town from X to Y), and your email and VM messages can just say “Thanks for your call. I’m on vacation until X date and cannot respond till then/will check this sporadically and get back to you/whatever applies.”

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah my biggest fear is that they would schedule interviews while I’m gone, but there’s nothing to be done about that – if it happens, and they can’t be flexible, then it’s too bad but not worth worrying about ultimately. (Two months is likely too short a time in my field to expect to be starting a new job, but I know it varies in different fields).

        1. Safetykats*

          If you’re able to check emails/ receiver phone messages while you’re gone, you can easily deal with the interview scheduling issue. I’ve never been in a situation where we didn’t conduct interviews over at least 2-3 weeks – if only because our people who need to be there are busy people too! I’ve done a phone interview while in vacation – and got the offer. I’ve hired people (and been hired) with an impending long (2 week) vacation, and I second that you just need to make sure they understand your schedule. It will usually require some coordination with HR and payroll, because if your vaca is soon after your hire date you will obviously be taking that time unpaid, but that’s not at all rare.

    6. MissingArizona*

      It sounds so reasonable when I hear other people say it’s reasonable, but I’m still pretty anxious because of my last toxic job where taking any time off was a mortal sin.

      1. AudreyParker*

        Thanks so much for asking this, as I’m in a similar position, both with 2 weeks of vacation bought & paid for later this year AND having previously been in jobs where you often weren’t able to take that kind of time away. I’ve been trying to trust that this happens all the time, but it definitely helps to see the responses here! For me, it’s also that I don’t tend to be in high level positions that I feel would be held for me if I’m planning to be gone… arrgh, lots of deep breaths and trying to trust it’s ok.

    7. Joielle*

      I was in this situation when I accepted my current job! Accepted the job in December to start the first week of January, and I was getting married and going on a honeymoon (so about 10 days off total) in March. Which also happened to be right in the middle of the office’s busiest season.

      I brought it up during the offer conversation – I basically said “I’d love to accept your offer but I have to let you know that I’m getting married in March and will need ten days off. I know that’s inconvenient timing on your end but I hope we can make it work.” They were totally fine with it.

    8. alannaofdoom*

      I did this last fall! I started a new job near the end of August, with a two-week vacation already planned around Labor Day. I mentioned it to HR when they sent the offer letter – it’s a huge company so they have all new hires start en masse one day each month, and my hiring manager wanted me to start right away rather than push my start date back a month. So I worked for a week, was away for two, then came back to – it felt like – “really” start.

      (One thing to be mindful of once you’re at the offer stage is how PTO days work: will your allotted PTO days be available immediately upon start, or do you accrue them over time as you work?)

  11. Folklorist*

    LOOK! OVER THERE! (err…over here?) It’s an…ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!

    Go and do something you’ve been putting off and then come back here and brag about it! Mental de-cluttering before the weekend.

    I know it’s not work-related, but I’m going to call the student loan office and figure some stuff out. I’ve been putting this off for at least six months now. Uggghghhhhhh.

    1. Temperance*

      I need to call back a really unpleasant and terrible client today. His green card application was delayed because he didn’t sign the forms we needed by the drop-dead date, so they all had to be redone, and he acts like it’s my fault that there’s a delay because, and I quote, “all of his friends already have THEIR green cards”. (He was told multiple times of this, BTW, but won’t accept blame.)

      1. Cookie Monster*

        High-five for immigration law and clients blaming you for problems they created! Also good luck with Cap Season, which I presume you’re also going through right now.

        1. Temperance*

          I manage pro bono, so I actually don’t have to worry about Cap Season this year! I assume that you’re in it, and if so, good luck!

    4. HigherEdPerson*

      But I don’t wanna reconcile my procurement card report :-(

      FINE, I’ll go do it.

    5. Cercis*

      I need to edit a newsletter article and make sense of the photos and captions. I’ve been putting it off for two days (deadline isn’t until Monday …).

      Okay, that one is done. Just one more to pick photos for and match them with captions.

    6. Bostonian*

      Quintessential procrastination- I read this post, and this was my thought process:

      1) Ah, what a good idea, I should make that phone call I’ve been putting off all week.
      2) It’s lunch hour, everyone and their mom is probably making phone calls right now.
      3) Maybe I’ll try calling later…

    7. D.W.*

      I need to slog through an abyss of voicemails dating back years….if I can at least get through 5 today, I’ll be happy.
      Challenge accepted!

    8. periwinkle*

      Just sent a meeting request I’ve been too busy… okay, lazy to send since yesterday morning. Now I’m going to pare down that ridiculous Inbox From Hell.

      1. Weyrwoman*

        Oooh Inbox from Hells. I had one for the longest time before I finally sat down and dealt with it. I’m now a zero-inboxer, but I also have something upwards of 20 folders/subfolders for emails that I want to keep records of.

    9. JeanB in NC*

      I already did my thing I was procrastinating on! I did my state income tax return at lunch and it’s ready to mail.

    10. Hellanon*

      Oh, arrgghh, the typing of student evals awaits… no, I don’t usually do this. Yes, these evals are so scathing I don’t want to share them with my assistant, but I do want to march down and fire this teacher’s worthless ass myself…

    12. anonfintechgal*

      Need to get my resume together. I like where I’m at but the compensation is low and I’m tired of settling. That’s my Friday frog!

    13. Tuna Casserole*

      Finished entering stats into a spreadsheet. Been putting it off for a week. I’m now enjoying a celebratory coffee.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I took my walk. As soon as my lunch settles, I’m going back outside to rake up more sweetgum tree balls. Ugh. Cue massive shoulder pain, but it has to be done.

      1. Mrs. Fenris*

        Ugh, sweetgum balls. My mom had a huge sweetgum tree taken down just to stop dealing with them.

    17. Bibliovore*

      Thanks, I needed that. Turned in January Ex. Didn’t do Feb. but did finish one teapot and delivered with two more hanging over my head for the weekend.

  12. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    This was just one of those weeks where I want to slowly stand up, purposely gather my belongings, walk out the door, and never return. Between getting in the umpteenth argument with a coworker about what I need to do my job (I’ve been her over five years….I know what I need), the insane micromanagement, and having to explain that, no, it is not cheaper to overnight something to Oregon from Florida as opposed to sending it from Minnesota……..I’m exhausted.

    And frustrated.

    3. HigherEdPerson*

      I’m sorry. I hope you’re able to do something relaxing this weekend to help recharge your energy

    4. someone else was using the same name*

      I’m sorry those weeks are the worst. Make sure you take some time for yourself this weekend. Take a bath, go for a long walk, play with your pets and unwind and recharge. That is so important for my mental health after a hard week. Good luck! Yikes, you have all of my sympathy.

    5. Mockingjay*

      My team and I felt the same way this week. Things had been going pretty smoothly for months, but grandboss is back to his usual tricks – overstaffing (because he gets a bonus for every body he puts on the contract, needed or not), micromanaging (we have to account for every work action down to the second we spend each day – no other teams have this level of granularity in reporting), and butt in seat time (cause what does that accomplish other than to make him feel powerful?).

      And to top it off, I went to the dentist this morning for a routine cleaning and had to have a filling replaced. Can’t wait until the novocaine wears off.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Keep an eye out for interfering with someone else’s learning experiences. Sometimes we just have to let people learn by doing, especially those know-it-all people. ;)

  13. Probably Nerdy*

    Need employment law advice – I work in a place where we are supposed to bill our time to specific projects kind of like consulting. But we are federal so we are also subject to the whims of the federal budget. So that means sometimes we don’t have project funding to bill to. Sometimes they let you bill to overhead, but sometimes your boss puts you on PTO or unpaid leave without your consent. I’ve heard that this is illegal – can anyone point me to some laws that clarify this?

        1. Close Bracket*

          If you bill the federal government, you must bill the actual project you worked on. I don’t know the legality, but I know not doing so will get your company in BIG trouble.
          Legally, you have to be paid for hours worked, so I don’t see how they get away with putting you on unpaid leave. With PTO, you still get paid, so it’s iffy and sake, but legal (I think IANAL)

      2. Probably Nerdy*

        It’s kind of a game of chicken most pay periods – can I drum up one pay period worth of funding before the end of the pay period? If not, screw you.

    2. Grits McGee*

      Just to clarify- are you considered a contractor/working off a grant or a full-fledged federal employee?

        1. NotALawyer*

          Sometimes the Federal Gov’t exempts themselves from various employment laws, which is super frustrating. I’m not sure if that’s the case here, but maybe check out the DOL’s website to see if they’d act on a wage/hour claim.

          An alternate avenue to address this would be through the/a union. Are you or any of your coworkers unionized? If so, you can try to address the issue through your collective bargaining agreement. If not, you could reach out to one of the unions, I know AFGE is the biggest one for feds, to learn what it would take to unionize and whether your jobs are eligible for unionization (the Fed Gov’t doesn’t allow unionization for some jobs). If you all aren’t getting paid and don’t have the assurance of being paid, putting together an enforceable collective bargaining agreement should provide extra protection and forums for future pay issues (there are federal boards that can hear about disputes for unionized employees that are separate from your management).

          1. Probably Nerdy*

            We are non-unionized for reasons unbeknownst to me, possibly having to do with our agency or career tracks (this is a military research laboratory, to throw a few monkey wrenches into that). The only union-ish thing I know of that is semi-active here is the NARFE which isn’t really a union. I guess it may not hurt to reach out to them and see if they have any advice.

            1. soon 2be former fed*

              31 year fed here, have worked at several different agencies. Go to/call your payroll office! You can find the number on your pay stub! Leave must be requested by the user and entered into a timekeeping system of some sort, and there are actual laws governing all federal pay. Effing around with federal pay is an absolute no-no!

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          My spouse is a federal contractor, and they do the same thing. He gets ample vacation, and that’s good, because he has to bill to it while he’s working on projects that aren’t adequately or finding work that will be funded. Sometimes he just works that as extra hours unpaid, but sometimes he bills it to his vacation time, since there isn’t enough paid time to make up the 40 hours for the week.

          1. caligirl*

            Wow, that’s not industry standard… I’m a federal contractor too and both my current and past company have a different set of numbers to use in those funding situations and not our own PTO! That’s very risky for the employees, IMHO.

            1. ThursdaysGeek*

              Whether an overhead charge code is provided seems to be political. Finding projects doesn’t get a charge code, and does take time, sometimes a lot of time. So if he needs to make up time so he has 40 hours of funded time for a week (after working unpaid overtime, of course), he uses PTO. In addition, he has required meetings, weather delays and closures, a required office move, and more that don’t provide charge codes. Add in the underfunded projects, that if are successful might lead to more funding.

              I think it should be illegal. I also think management with their overhead codes should be getting the work for their people. He figures he’s paid well, and part of the pay is to put up with stuff like this.

              1. Probably Nerdy*

                You sure your husband doesn’t work with me?!?!

                Part of it is definitely political. I’ve heard that technically there is an Unfunded Labor overhead charge code, but managers get their performance ratings dinged if they have direct reports that use it. IDK how true that is, or if those are just the rumors of the disgruntled.

                I probably would not have taken this job had I known how common it is to be in this situation.

            2. Safetykats*

              It’s hella risky for the employees, because signing that time card with the charge code you know is incorrect is fraud at the federal level. Doesn’t matter if you go back and correct it later – and in fact knowing that you’re likely to go back and correct it later just points out more clearly that you knew it was fraudulent at the time. Your employer is asking you to take the liability for their lack of a compliant billing system, and that’s not okay. There should be a charge code for “work not billable.” That work could be not billable because of pending funding, because it’s corporate rather than government work, or for other reasons. If you ask persistently enough, my bet if you’ll find there is such a charge code; it’s just more convenient for them not to give it out. I know this because I usually have to refuse to sign time cards before that charge code is divulged. (I’m signing as the manager/approved. And by the way your manager/approved should be concerned too, as he’s also committing fraud, and way more likely to end up prosecuted for it because of his level of responsibility.)

              And people do end up prosecuted for this kind of thing – don’t kid yourself that it doesn’t happen. Usually at the management level, but not always. In a recent case they did initially file against worker-level people, although it was mostly to get them to testify. Doesn’t make it any less trouble or stress when you’re charged though.

            3. Specialk9*

              We were told that working for the govt for free could get us fired, our manager fired, and anyone else who knew. You don’t f around with pay in the federal government.

              File a complaint with the DOL. It’s online, or call 1-866-4USWAGE (1-866-487-9243)
              TTY: 1-877-889-5627
              Monday-Friday 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.

          2. Probably Nerdy*

            Well if we ever figure out if it’s illegal, maybe he can use the info too :D

            It appears to be illegal to not pay employees for hours they worked and “sitting at work doing nothing waiting for things to do” DOES count as “working” according to the DoL…

            Dang I wish I knew a lawyer.

            1. ThursdaysGeek*

              Yeah, if you’re unpaid sometimes, that seems really uncool. Using the vacation is not as bad, since the paycheck doesn’t change.

              1. Specialk9*

                But they worked, and later it was decided that they had actually worked for free and had been on unrequested unapproved unpaid leave, while sitting at the office working for the govt. Oh hell no.

        3. Short & Dumpy*

          Unless you are in a subject-to-furlough, term, or temp position, this is not legal. You can contact OPM directly. I can dig out the phone number tonight if you can’t find it.

          (Federal employee, though not DoD. I worked in an office where a ton of our funding was cost recovery billable to specific projects such as big mine permits and they were definitely NOT allowed to do this…not that one of the managers wouldn’t have loved to)

          1. Specialk9*

            Oh yeah, duh, me — I forgot about the OIG, Office of Inspector General. They’re the group at every Fed that is the watchdog. They’re there to keep them from doing things exactly like those shenanigans. You can just drop by their office and ask them. (I’ve always loved the OIG staff I worked with, they seem to actually really care.)

            1. Short & Dumpy*

              Yup. I’ve been really impressed with both OPM & OIG. They don’t mess around!

              (side note…if any of my fellow feds ever get a chance to take an ethics training from someone from OIG, hop on it! the examples will curl your hair…and if you can go out for beers with the instructor later, you’ll REALLY hear stories. A few of them may even be from my old office….hmmmm, I should really go look to see if those managers are still in jail….)

              1. Short & Dumpy*

                I probably should have clearly stated this:

                My former managers are in federal prison for directing employees to bill hours to cost recovery accounts when we were actually doing ‘normal’ duties that should have been covered out of base funding. That is the degree to which this is not legal. Multiple senior managers with a heck of a lot of political clout sitting in prison. (None of the staff who followed their orders were penalized in any way)

    3. Marcy Marketer*

      You could send a cease and desist letter, but sometimes that just adds fuel to the fire. I personally would just let it go.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        Uh sorry this was meant for a different post, where a former boss was slandering someone.

        1. Q*

          No, no, I like the idea of sending a C&E for “billing me for unpaid leave when I worked”

    4. MeMeM*

      Reminds me of a cartoon i saw when i worked for NASA as a civil servant.

      Four convicts in a cell. One is an engineer in a tie and a hangdog face. The others name the crimes they’re in for – theft, murder, robbery. They ask him what he’s on for and he replies “Timecard fraud.”

      We got the message.

  14. Solaire*

    I posted a couple of times about my boss antagonizing me after I asked disclosed my health conditions. I didn’t get the links to the actual comments but they’re from the last few open threads of 2017.

    I left that job over two months ago and I found a new one. The new job is good and I thought everything from my last job was behind me now, but that was wrong. Someone I got along with at the bad job reached out to me to tell me that my old boss there is accusing me of “deleting a server” before I left to sabotage the company. My boss isn’t elaborating on what I did, he’s just telling that I “deleted a server” and “deleted months of work.”

    That story is complete BS, but I’m worried about it spreading around and coming back to hurt my reputation. I quit without notice, because my boss was a bully and a general asshole. But before I put in my resignation, I sent out emails to everyone I worked with sharing all the documents I owned with them. I forwarded copies of everything to my personal email (not the documents!!).

    My question is: what course of action do I take? I could go to a lawyer but that seems preemptive because I don’t have any more details and I haven’t heard from the old company officially yet.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this! I think I would let it sit for now. For one thing – as an IT person, “deleting a server” just doesn’t sound right to me. I haven’t heard that terminology used so it sounds like someone who is making something up. Also, if he’s a bully and a general asshole, then people aren’t really going to take him at face-value anyway, even if the story gets spread around. And you have evidence from coworkers that you left documentation for them and were behaving professionally. So unless you did something totally egregious during your leave period that others can attest to (which it sounds like you didn’t), then I wouldn’t do anything just yet, and let it die.

      I don’t know anything about legal action in this matter so someone else will have to jump in there.

      1. Solaire*

        I think he means I deleted everything on a company server. Think “rm -rf /” if you do Linux. My big worry is that he got another technical person to do something under my account, but now that I say it it sounds like paranoia. He’d have to get someone willing to put themselves on the line if they got caught, and his career would be done if he was caught.

    2. Observer*

      I agree with HEDD. Even with a virtualized environment “deleting a server” makes no sense. So unless your coworker is not reporting what ex-boss is saying accurately, you don’t have a lot to worry bout here.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        +100
        We are a very small office and even if our server files were deleted, we have mirrored drives, cloud backup, and a handy dandy old fashioned backup.
        Boss is reinforcing why you left. Don’t give him any more of your energy thinking about it.

    3. Starley*

      If I heard this from someone, especially a known asshole, I would think it sounded made up, honestly. IANAL but from a legal standpoint I don’t think there’s much you can do, unless you can show damages (like it costing you a job). If that place had a decent HR department you could maybe try contacting someone there, but if your coworker reached out to you I’m sure everyone who has heard this knows it’s bullshit. I’m glad you’re out of there!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah this is one of those situations where your best revenge / recourse is probably to do great in your current role and be happy and successful. You don’t work for these guys anymore and don’t have to care what they say about you, as long as your current reputation is good it’s just going to come across as sour grapes. It’s like when your ex trashes you to others – not your circus, not your monkeys.

      1. Solaire*

        Not in a way I’ll be able to see or handle, unfortunately. He could lie about me like this to someone who controls whether I get a job, without me ever hearing about it. So I’ve decided to stop worrying about it unless I find out that he’s been doing that.

        Which is possible because he was dumb enough to email other people saying I was using a health condition as an excuse to not work, but again, I’ll care when he does something.

        1. Specialk9*

          Yeah, let it go. Most people will figure out that he sounds like an idiot and a jerk. (I’m not technical, and even I giggled at “deleted a server” – that’s… not how servers work.)

          Generally, mean people can’t keep the mean in. People figure it out. But you’re out of there anyway. Be at peace.

    5. Samiratou*

      I would ignore it unless something comes of it. Legally I don’t think you’d be able to do anything, unless you could prove his lies cost you a job or something.

      I doubt anything would ever come of it, anyway. Your former coworkers know what he is, and anyone outside the company is unlikely to listen or care, even if he did drag it outside of the company.

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      That is tough but ultimately it is probably not hiring you. Put it out of your mind.

      I use to obsess about my old bully manager (she is coming up a lot today) who went and telling everyone I was fired. I still worked at the company and had actually landed a huge promotion into another department. Her lies had zero impact my career path but I worried for far too long about it.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Deleting a server. What does he think you did, shoot it? The phrasing suggests he has no clue what he is talking about.
      Knowledge is power. Tell your friend that you gave everyone copies of what you had. Tell him that you have documentation that you did this. Let your friend have this knowledge and take it from there. If your friend was on his toes he could have saved that email and forwarded to the boss again. “Look boss, we all received copies of what Solaire did.”

      Your boss is probably known for who he actually is and not everyone will pay attention. Keep rocking your current job. Until you know for sure you have a definite,concrete problem, let it go. Focus on being a great employee.

    8. LKW*

      I would imagine time stamp, account and IP would clear you from most of this. Additionally, if they used your account, that would assume that they had no policy to terminate accounts when people leave – which shows incompetence. Plus if they retain account information and can use other people’s accounts well that’s just stupid –
      sharing passwords is a no-no.

    9. Close Bracket*

      I have been hoping you would update us! Congrats on the new job, I hope it goes better for you. I’m sorry your old boss is still weighing you down.

    10. ..Kat..*

      In previous letters from people in similar situations, Alison has recommended having an employment lawyer send a cease and desist letter.

    11. Solaire*

      I’ve decided to just ignore him.

      Unfortunately, he could lie about me to someone important and damage my reputation, without me ever hearing about it. That really sucks, but it’s not worth worrying about.

      If he does try to take this somewhere, I have the records proving my innocence. It would suck to have to do that, too, but it’s unlikely and I can’t do anything about it right now.

      So I’m moving on with my life. He can be weird, obsessive, and angry in his own little corporate fiefdom.

  15. La Chismosa*

    In light of yesterday’s post about waifu, I wanted to see what your thoughts are on these types of communities and being open about it at the workplace – otherkin ,therian, waifu, etc. I follow the otherkin subreddit and am absolutely fascinated by these communities. Here is a post I read the other day about a man who is wolfkin who was fired for growling at customers.

    http://i.imgur.com/afZblCR.jpg

    Do you think they will eventually become more accepted in the general population and workplace? I compare it to homosexuality and being transgender (please know that I am well aware that believing you’re a wolf is not the same as being gay or identifying as a man when you were born a woman). I compare it to this because there was a time where being gay was not accepted (and even still not in some rural areas of the US and in some cultures) and even more recently being transgender.

    In our world of acceptance and not shaming communicates in addition to how popular the internet is and how easy it is to find someone who identifies similarly to how you do, no matter how rare it may be, I believe these communities will grow in the future.

    1. grace*

      Maybe it makes me close-minded, but I hope that’s one of those trends that stays out of the workplace… I don’t want to work closely with someone who believes they’re a wolf or a dragon or whatever else, mostly because I’m not sure I could ever trust their decision-making.

      Idk, I think the more vanilla you are in the workplace, the better. Do whatever you want on your own time – just not in the office.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      One thing I know for sure: no matter who you are or how you identify, it is never ok to growl at customers or co-workers.

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        This. It’s all about behavior not belief within the work place, and that goes for any personal thing even religious beliefs and sexual preferences. People can go ahead and believe they are a dragon trapped in human form, but if they start setting fires and eating their coworkers, it’s no longer appropriate for work.

        1. Arjay*

          Yes. If you identify as a wolf, maybe the local superstore isn’t suitable employment for you.

      4. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Oh my goodness. I received a letter a few months ago from someone whose employee had announced she was a wolf trapped in a human body, and I assumed it was fake and didn’t use it. Hmmm.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I have a feeling we might be seeing the writer of that letter ’round these parts these days. I understand why you wouldn’t want to publish it, but… it may be time to let that cat out of its cave.

          1. Casuan*

            AvonLady, I think you mean wolf out of its lair.
            ;-)

            +1 to keeping these identities from the workplace. Although I’m interested in reading about how these traits affect everyone in the workplace because really it isn’t unlike other discussions on how to keep certain things private, as opposed to making them known to the workplace.

        3. JamieS*

          Kinda hope it was fake because now I’m just thinking about that poor letter writer having to navigate managing a wolf solo for months.

      5. Jules the Third*

        +1

        It’s all about behavior, not identity. In most professional workplaces (eg, everyplace that’s not sex work), sexual behavior is Not Ok, whether the people acting out are straight, gay, cis, trans, whatever. Aggressive / physically defensive behavior to non-threatening people is Not Ok, whether you are human, dragon, wolf, alien, whatever.

        I like Alison’s framing best: it’s part of your job to get along with your coworker, customers and clients.

      6. Candy*

        Yeah, the tumblr person La Chismosa linked to was let go because they were growling and snarling at coworkers and customers, not because they identified as a werewolf.

      7. Thlayli*

        If I believed that he was part wolf, that would make me less happy about him growling at me, not more happy!

        1. Thlayli*

          Just realised this wasn’t very clear! What I mean is an actual wolf growling at me would scare me more than a human growling at me. So if I believed that someone was part wolf, I would be more scared of them growling at me than a regular human growling at me.

          Which is all to say – being part-wolf shouldn’t give you a right to growl at customers.

        2. This Daydreamer*

          Humans are less predictable than canids. I think I’d prefer the wolf. And a safe place to get to.

      8. Alton*

        Yes. I think it can be helpful, when looking at behavior, to compare how people would react if someone who wasn’t part of that group did something similar. In the case of LGBT people, individuals are often discriminated against for doing things that would be seen as normal for someone who’s straight and cisgender, like mentioning a spouse or wearing clothes that fit their gender identity.

        But if I brought my cat to work, it would be unprofessional and disruptive, so it would also be unprofessional and disruptive for me to act like a cat. I also think that in the case of things like people saying that they’re in a relationship with a celebrity or fictional character, the biggest issue is that people associate “being in a relationship” with certain criteria and actions that don’t apply in this case, so it sounds dishonest and inaccurate. There can be social norms regarding relationships that don’t necessarily involve discrimination against a marginalized group. Some people feel that you shouldn’t bring a casual dating partner to a workplace party, for example, and that you should only bring a serious, committed partner as your plus-one.

    3. Turquoisecow*

      I have no clear opinions on this but I will say that an online acquaintance of mine who is transgender was very upset and insulted that he was put into the same category as otherkin.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yeah, it’s pretty offensive to a lot of people. I’m experiencing — maybe not flames, but definitely glowing embers up the side of my face here.

        1. HannahS*

          Yeah. Take this as constructive criticism about communication, La Chismosa: don’t say, “I know these two things are not the same” and then compare them anyway. Comparison suggests that there is some essential similarity. If you know they’re not essentially similar (and they’re not), don’t compare at all, because it trivializes a heck of a lot of people’s real actual current violent oppression. You could have made your entire point the same way without comparing the LGBT+ community and trans people to otherkin. Hedging (saying that you know they’re not the same but then implying that you kind of think they are) is like saying, “No offense, but…”–it doesn’t actually mean that what you said wasn’t gross.

          1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

            I guess what I got out of the post was not that these two identities are comparable, but how they are or have been treated in the past IS comparable. And I would agree that for most of history the LGBT community has been treated in a “don’t talk about that” or “don’t be open about that” type of way. Things are in process of changing. That doesn’t mean that being gay or trans or whatever is the same as being otherkin, but that they have experienced people in their lives having similar reactions to their identity.

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              But the problem is that the way they’re treated isn’t comparable.

              Otherkin/therians/whatever do not face the kind of systematic religious, political, and economic disadvantages that LGBT people do. By trying to claim that “don’t talk about that” is the core of our oppression, you’re completely ignoring what we actually face.

            2. General Ginger*

              How these identities are treated is not comparable, though. Systemic discrimination and systemic prejudice is a thing; it goes beyond “don’t talk about that”.

        1. Specialk9*

          Meaning that the way to say that is “identifies as a woman, although identified at birth as male”, as opposed to “born a man but identifies as female” (ie demonstrably wrong). Because the people who made that ID were not the trans person, it was doctors/parents/etc who made a call based on genitalia – which is different than one’s own identity.

          (Not trans, any error here is mine.)

      3. AMT*

        Yep. I’m trans. Not to over-medicalize trans identity, but there has been tons of research over 50+ years that strongly points to cross-gender identity (and gay identity, for that matter) having a biological origin. Trans women likely have feminized brains and trans men masculinized ones.

        That doesn’t mean that people’s identities shouldn’t be respected if they aren’t biological in origin, and I’m strongly of the belief that expressing identities that don’t harm anyone should be totally fine in the workplace, but I do think that being trans is fundamentally different from being a dragon trapped in a human body. Man, that felt weird to type out.

      4. Plague of frogs*

        Yeah, not cool at all.

        Science and society are in agreement over what constitutes species membership.

        Gender is poorly understood, and at least to some degree a social construct.

        Comparing the two is comparing apples and oceans. They have literally nothing to do with each other.

    4. ThatGirl*

      For the record, I am a queer white cis lady.

      But whoooo I am sort of mildly train-wreck fascinated by otherkin but I do NOT think it is the same as being queer or trans. Gender expression exists on a spectrum, there are known biological, societal and social factors at work… this is not the same as identifying with animals strongly, or AS an animal. I am pretty much a live and let live sort of person but there is also a standard for working in public, and not bringing your private life into it. I would not talk about my sex life at work, I would not talk about my spiritual life, and I think this sort of thing is firmly in the “don’t discuss it at work” family.

      Also well-behaved dogs can be trained not to growl, I don’t see why identifying as part wolf means being scary or mean to customers.

      2. Plague of frogs*

        I mean, no workplace hires wolves. So if you think you’re a wolf, when you try to get a job you’re barking up the wrong tree (see what I did there?).

      1. Manders*

        Hah, yes! Well-behaved canines can listen attentively and be friendly and polite just like humans. I think this guy was looking for an excuse to scare a customer he didn’t like.

    6. Snark*

      I would, just as a preliminary aside, not use the LGBT comparison to frame this question. I read and understand your parenthetical disclaimer, and I get where you’re coming from, but….it still feels a little off to have sexual orientation compared to waifu.

      That said.

      There are some things I feel like we just have to accept, and which nobody should be expected to hide or edit, whether we personally feel they’re normal or moral or acceptable – orientation being one. A voluntarily, actively embraced fandom, subculture, religious belief, ideology, or similar framework doesn’t really rank like that. Of course, if you want to believe you’re a wolf, or that you’re astrally married to a cartoon character, and you identify with those communities, knock yourself out! I’m delighted that you found your tribe and I won’t shame you for it. But when you start proudly informing clients that your boyfriend is that framed pic of an anime dude, or growling at customers, that’s dragging them into your fantasy life in a way that will probably not play well, and which should really not be expected to. It’s like the letter from the person whose coworker was demanding everyone call her boyfriend “Master.”

      1. selina kyle*

        Snark, as always, you’ve managed to phrase this so well. I really love your framing of the fact that it is identifying with a culture and not simply identifying with yourself – that really makes sense to me.

      2. Meh*

        +1
        I was just about to comment about the calling boyfriend “master” as well. It’s dragging everyone into TMI territory. Do what you want on your own time, but don’t bring it into the workplace. We all have our quirks and the workplace isn’t the place to show them off (at least the vast majority of workplaces).

      3. Observer*

        Also, how would another IT person have your credentials to do anything on your account. If someone changed your password after you left, that would show up in the logs…
        It doesn’t sound to me like people in these communities are actually CHOOSING this. At least the otherkin and therian communities. Waifu is a different story.

        Having said that, at a fundamental level it really doesn’t matter. There are certain behaviors that don’t belong in the workplace. Period. Growling at people is one of them (unless it truly is a matter of self defense). Being fired because you GROWLED at someone is NOT “oppression”.

        1. Snark*

          Eh, we can agree to disagree on the choice aspect, and maybe that’s not the best word for it….but I think there’s a level of active embrace that has more in common with religions and ideologies than anything, particularly given the self-reinforcing aspect of a lot of online communities.

          1. Observer*

            I hear you. But if you look at what these people say, it’s clear that they don’t see it as an embrace of something but their identity.

            My point though, is that that’s really not a terribly fruitful path to go down. As I said, it really doesn’t matter. As a secular society, “an it harm no on, do as you will” is probably as good a motto as we get. But, that’s for your PRIVATE life. At work, it’s a different deal and you simply can’t allow “your nature” whatever that may be, to overshadow reasonable norms such as NOT THREATENING OTHERS.

            1. Snark*

              Agreed. I think it boils down to “be cool.” Whatever your deal is, at work and otherwise moving through the wider culture? Be cool about it.

          2. Emi.*

            I don’t think it’s really relevant how much of a choice it is. You think you’re a wolf, you’re choosing to think you’re a wolf, you’re pretending to be a wolf, I don’t really care. You’re just … not a wolf. I am not going to pretend that you are one, and I really, really hope you do not manage to rally HR to the cause of demanding that I deny reality to protect your feelings.

            1. Plague of frogs*

              I dunno, if they were sufficiently obnoxious I think I would go with pretending they were one and insisting that they be fired. Species is not a protected category.

            2. Adele*

              There has been a big debate about legalizing wolf hunts again in my state. Just sayin’

      4. Close Bracket*

        Otherkins don’t think their identification is a choice, though. Telling them that would be as offensive as me telling someone their religion is a choice.

        1. Snark*

          And a lot of religious folks think their affiliation is a calling impressed upon them by a deity. But the distinction remains.

      5. Turquoisecow*

        I agree.

        I mean, I get that we want to be open and able to talk about or relationships at work, with coworkers, and not hide who we are. And to that extent, unless you spend the entire time you’re supposed to be working talking to coworkers or clients about your SO, it doesn’t really matter to an employer whether someone is gay or straight. Same thing with if someone is trans. Can you enter these TPS reports? Ok, then I don’t care about your gender and whether it matches your birth certificate. It’s irrelevant.

        If you want to marry a fictional character, I also don’t care. I think the reason the previous post was an issue was less that issue and more that she kept talking about it at work. To coworkers. To clients. I mean, slightly more uncomfortable because it’s outside the norm, but if I were a client and someone was babbling about their real spouse, it would also be a little uncomfortable. Like, ok, let’s talk about work now, thanks?

        But otherkin – that’s something different, and I see it as inherently contradictory. How can someone believe, simultaneously, that they are *really* a wolf, or whatever AND that they can do this job that they’re doing as well as any other human? If you can’t, then why were you hired?

        Being true to oneself is important, yes, but the workplace is not the place to do that. In the workplace, you need to conform to certain standards of behavior, which can be somewhat conservative and restricting, but are most definitely human standards. As someone said above, growling is unacceptable behavior for the workplace, regardless of your identity. Excessive talking about your SO, or your sex life (in the case of the “Master” question), or your religious beliefs (unless you work for a religious organization!) or anything else that’s too personal, is unacceptable behavior for the workplace regardless of your sexual orientation, gender, or religious beliefs.

        Is the workplace becoming more tolerant? Sure, because people are more tolerant. You’re less likely now to be refused a job because of gender, race, religion, orientation, etc partly because of laws, but also because people who are hiring are more tolerant. But some unacceptable workplace behavior is always going to be unacceptable, and growling at people? Definitely one of those.

      6. AMT*

        This is something I struggle with. As a trans guy, I find that a lot of people in queer and allied communities are into various subcultures (e.g. BDSM, extreeeemely serious TV show fandoms, otherkin-type stuff, paranormal beliefs). Such people often consider these subcultures integral to their identities. Some assert that it’s different from an innate, unchangeable identity like being gay, Asian, or disabled. I want to respect that, but I find myself thinking, “Have furries been beaten to death or subjected to medical experiments? Have Benedict Cumberbatch fans been subject to ethnic cleansing?”

        What I’m finding difficult to articulate, though, is a clear line between these things. I know that many (most?) people wouldn’t consider their religious or paranormal beliefs “chosen.” Lots of otherkin wouldn’t, either. Hell, plenty of trans/non-binary people *do* consider their identities “chosen,” don’t think that it’s a biological thing, or think biology doesn’t matter. Even for people on the more lifestyle-y end of the spectrum of these identities (e.g. TV show superfans, BDSM), it’s sometimes such a huge part of their everyday lives that it’s almost as impactful as religious belief or ethic identity. And there’s no denying that some of these communities have experienced a certain amount of discrimination and ridicule.

        I suppose you could say that the line is “biological versus chosen” or “innate versus elective,” but that’s only scratching the surface. I mean, a bisexual person could “choose” to date only opposite-sex people and certain ethnic groups could hide their identities, but asking them to assimilate sounds pretty horrible. Are we horrible for asking these subcultures to assimilate or to hide the not-overtly-sexual aspects of their lives in the workplace? I definitely FEEL like there’s a difference and FEEL that the otherkin-trans comparison is offensive, but I can’t put into words why.

        1. Manders*

          Hah, yes, I’m also queer and I run in some crowds where people tend to be very quirky. I think I fall pretty far on the side of accepting harmless oddities, but I still feel like there’s a difference between being a bit of an oddball and using the language of genuinely oppressed groups to argue that there should never be any professional or social consequences for yelling at people about your anime boyfriend.

          Do I tell my boss I went to a comic convention and had a good time? Yes. Do I give him a play by play of the “comics and kink” panel I watched there? Nope.

        2. AMT*

          *”Some assert that it’s different…” should be “Some assert that it’s NO different…”

        3. anon attorney*

          Thanks for this comment. I feel the same. Instinctively I think that seeking equality and recognition as a queer person (I’m bisexual) is different from doing so as someone who believes they’re descended from elven, but I too am having difficulty pinning down why.

          1. Plague of frogs*

            LGBT people are just asking for the same rights that non-LGBT people enjoy. Someone who believes they are a wolf is asking for more rights than the rest of us. They are saying that they should simultaneously be treated as fully human and wolf. If they want to work in my workplace without growling at me and marking the furniture, cool. If they want to run with the other wolves in the Yukon, cool (up to the point where they stress the wolves out…). But they don’t get to have both.

            I don’t know if that’s why it bothers me, but it’s part of it.

            1. General Ginger*

              Same rights vs getting both, that’s definitely an aspect I was having trouble putting my finger on, thank you for articulating!

        4. Sparkly Lady*

          Yeah, I agree with you on all aspects of this. I also feel that there’s an important difference, but I am uncomfortable with what often seems like glib dismissals of people’s descriptions of oppression, especially for things like BDSM where being outed has factually cost people jobs and custody of children. If I can’t articulate the difference, I think it’s important to to be open to the idea that I could the one wrong here. Maybe I only feel there’s a difference because a lot of this stuff is so fringe.

          However, I think there are some clear lines that can be drawn around behavior that a reasonable person would consider socially disruptive, like a wolfkin growling at a customer or a customer being expected to treat a cartoon character as a boyfriend. But maybe there are areas that should be treated as personal quirks. If a non-client-facing co-worker calls a cartoon character her boyfriend but otherwise does work fine, is it really a problem?

        5. Jules the Third*

          So, here’s the thing: the otherkin types I knew have been beaten up for ‘being weird’, and threatened with involuntary commitment to mental hospitals. Otherkin isn’t the same as furry – most furries I know do see it as a choice and a community; only a very small subset see it as a way to express their otherkin selves.

          Neither group faces the same legal issues that LBGTQx do. Otherkin challenges are much more along the lines that people with mental illnesses face. But it does include a ton of real legal and social challenges, but because of the small size of the community, we don’t hear much about it.

          The comparison is offensive because people assume that otherkin is 1) a choice and 2) if not a choice, then an expression of mental illness. We’ve worked for a long time to help people understand that LBGTQx is not a mental illness, and there’s still a TON of stigma around mental illness, so anything that refers back to that is a problem.

    7. Andi*

      This sounds exactly like the kind of thing certain people should use to argue against furthering of LGBT+ rights because ‘slippery slope’.

      So I sincerely hope for the sake of that alone that this does not become a ‘thing’.

      Why does it even need to be? How much time do you devote in your work day to discuss that kind of thing (from what I know of fandom-related talk, they usually run long and deep)?

    8. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I think the problem in yesterday’s post and what you described above is that it is impacting the workplace and making customers uncomfortable. Sexual orientation and gender identity do NOT impact work, unless you are actively displaying either in a way that is inappropriate. If someone was showing people their genitals or having sex in the workplace, the ACTION would be the problem rather than the fact that you belong to a certain community. And neither of those acts would be appropriate for a hetero/cis person either.

      Love who you want to love, be who you want to be, live the life you want to live, but don’t shove it in my face and I won’t shove my differing personal life in yours.

    9. selina kyle*

      I’m really uncomfortable with the comparison to LGBT matters honestly. It’s something I see on occasion and I think it discredits the struggle LGBT folks have had. It seems that these otherkin types of beliefs weigh in on how a person acts, whereas being gay or trans is more about one’s own self.
      (I’m having trouble fully articulating this and don’t intend it as an attack just – something I’ve seen on occasion elsewhere and it bothers me.)

        1. Snark*

          I understand what you were getting at, but Countess Boochie Flagrante and others have articulated well that such comparisons have problems for queer folks regardless of intent, and I think there’s lots of other comparisons that could illustrate the same point.

          1. Jesca*

            So what say you to those of that subgroup who do regularly compare their struggles of acceptance to that of the LGBT community? I am really just wondering. In a sociological way, I ponder this often when I read about it. I mean, a lot of these people really do believe they are vampires, or wolves, or are paraplegic. It is literally a part of their identity. I have a hard time separating between someone born one sex identifying with another as a person born human but identifying with an animal? Is it the loss of identifying with another human that makes the distinction? Or is it that one has become more mainstream? Or is it because we have some evidence that identification of gender is fluid and non-nurture based and that we don’t have those studies to support human/animal?

            I am really just curious on this!

            1. Homoplasma*

              + 1 on this. I am a gay male and I did not find La Chismosa’s post offensive. I viewed it as they were trying to make a comparison and that was the best one. Is there another one that would be more appropriate? Finding an example of a group that was not accepted in the past and is more so now? Struggling to find a better example. Let me know if you have one!

              1. Snark*

                I would personally have compared it to the rise of non-mainstream religious practices like Buddhism becoming more generally accepted, or gamer culture, or polyamory.

                1. grace*

                  I think polyamory would be a great example. There’s a lot of online acceptance, not a lot of it in the “real world,” and bringing it into the workplace is seen with caution — yes, most people do it well, but there’s those few who mess it up for everyone else.

                2. Manders*

                  This thread ran out of nesting, but I wanted to +1 what Grace said about polyamory. It’s likely that a lot of people think of polyamory as a TMI thing… because a few polyamorous people actually did get TMI about it, so they’re more likely to be noticed and remembered.

                  I knew a polyamorous person who did get way, way too vocal about her messy personal life in the workplace. She’s now out of a job, and probably will be for a long time, because her judgement about what’s appropriate at work is just awful. I also know a whole lot of polyamorous people who are killing it professionally and can bring up their multiple partners with the same casualness as monogamous people.

                  It’s not about the identity, it’s about the behavior.

                3. Jules the Third*

                  I like the polyamory comparison, because there’s a similar ambiguity about choice and identity.

                  And none of these are usually relevant in the workplace.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Jesca, if you’re really interested “in a sociological way” you might try doing some research into the sociology and history of LGBTQ struggles. There’s a lot of good writing out there are about the alienation, mistreatment, abuse, and other horrors visited upon people who are identified under that umbrella, and it’s stuff that people who think they’re married to Snape on the astral plane don’t deal with.

              1. Jesca*

                I have actually done research on it. And I have actually done research on other fringe beliefs as well. My question, in that regard, still stands. Lots of people go through ostracization, abuse, and other horrific things for being different than mainstream. Actually, and sometimes people do find this shocking, that many things we do regularly in our own culture would get us killed in another. Sadly, it is not just limited to one group over another, and being ethnocentric can be very dangerous.

            3. Snark*

              Hard to say. I mean, there are some people in those groups who really embrace that identity and those practices, but who are prepared to admit that it’s something other than objective truth and reality. And, especially with the coworker we discussed yesterday, I think there are some who exhibit elements of clinical delusion.

              I think I’m most comfortable noting the observed neurological and structural difference between trans and cis people, and fact that trans folks tend to strongly identify with a gender from very early childhood, to distinguish between the two. There’s biological indications that trans identity is not a delusion or overvalued thought, and psychologists sharply distinguish between the two.

              1. Jesca*

                Right now they do, yes.

                In recent past, it was actually considered a form of body dysmorphia and other cognitive disassociation that were in the end harmless. I am trying to see how believing and internalizing that one is an animal is any different. And unfortunately I do not think I will get that answer until science decides to study it as in depth as they have other things.

                1. Snark*

                  Well, we’ll see. Unfortunately, I can’t take into account science that hasn’t been done.

                2. Elizabeth West*

                  I suspect you might not get the answer you want even if they do. You’re not likely to find canine characteristics hardwired into a primate brain.

                  But I agree with the folks who’ve said workplace norms are different from those in private life. At most workplaces, everyone is expected to conform to certain standards and focus on work, not personal things. While more casual workplaces with camaraderie among employees exist, people still need to be able to control their behavior in the prescribed manner no matter who they are.

            4. Q*

              Gender is a social construct, and is imposed on humans by themselves and other humans with basis in…anything else.

              Being a wolf is not a social construct.

              1. Laura*

                This is a few days late and I don’t know if anyone will see it, but I think it’s interesting that someone said being a wolf is not a social construct. Is being human a social construct? Not in a biological way but in the sense of ‘humanizing’ someone or ‘dehumanizing’ a group.

                Dehumanization is used against many groups that don’t fit the mainstream from the mentally ill and neurodivergent, to various ethnic groups at different times in history.

                I wonder if part of the otherkin identity is involved with rejecting the social construction of humanity and in a sense recognizing the futility of fighting the “no true Scotsman” approach to being a “real” person.

                I know that neurodivergent folks are over represented in some of these subcultures and that historical oppression of these groups has occasionally hinged on denying their essential humanity.

                In this sense, workplace conventions (not across the board of course) are really there for the comfort and convenience of the neurotypical majority. I feel like dealing with otherkin identity is probably not the least of the trouble that some of these people face, but discerning and understanding the social conventions that would generally dictate keeping that type of thing under wraps might itself be more to the point as the kind of thing that would be difficult for some.

            5. Safetykats*

              I think part of the problem is that we have no construct under which to manage this. If you think you’re a wolf, or a paraplegic, and it doesn’t cause you to do your job any differently that the rest of the staff, there’s no issue and it shouldn’t be the basis for discrimination even if I don’t understand it. If you’re asking for an accommodation – a disabled parking spot or dispensation to growl at customers or coworkers – then as a manager I do need to ask whether that accommodation is really required, and on what basis. And that may entail medical assessment to figure out whether you’re really a wolf, or mentally ill, or have just taken a lifestyle choice to a level that we can expect you to reasonably dial back into the realm of more normative behavior.

              That’s where these things get sticky, because deciding whether your growl at people because you have a neurological condition line Tourette’s, or a mental condition that causes you to think you’re a wolf, or because you really are a wolf, or because you’re just an ass, is going to be highly dependent on the state of the scientific understanding of the issue. It seems to me that societal acceptance of the spectrum of gender, and legal protection for the same, has tracked with scientific understanding. (Maybe it just seems that way to me because I’m an engineer). So maybe the best thing for the otherkin is for there to be some good science based work on their condition, such that we have a good basis for concluding whether growling at customers is something we should expect and accommodate, or not.

        2. Betsy*

          It’s also, as you said above, about the limits of normalisation. And I think there have been some pretty solid reasons provided as to why gay relationships and otherkin are quite different in important ways.

        3. Hellanon*

          No, it’s really not, because being gay, being trans, are things that are objectively true about a person – feel however you want about other people being gay, but they simply *are* and thus it’s not really for anyone else to choose to accept. Thus legal protections, etc, under the equal right clauses in the US constitution. But believing you are a wolf, or married to a cartoon character, or whatever, is just simply not objectively true: I can accept that you believe this thing, but I don’t accept that it is true. Nor do I have to.

          1. Jules the Third*

            Given the social structure of gender, being trans is more complex than ‘objectively true’ or ‘objectively not true’. We respect individual’s gender expression because we respect their personal identity and sense of self.

            Though I base a lot of stuff on ‘objectively true’ (climate change, car safety), I find that ‘personal autonomy’ gives a more consistent, compassionate and legally actionable basis for most social issues.

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would love to work someplace where both the employer and customers gave absolutely zero [cares] about what you did in your spare time. But the reason we don’t usually talk at work about the great sex we had is because we are forced together with a bunch of random people, some of whom will be VERY different from us. So we leave out a lot of personal, controversial things in most workplaces. Of course, it’s important to understand the culture at your particular workplace, and since many coworkers discuss personal activities when socializing (“What did/are you doing this weekend?”), we hope people can be open enough to at least mention that they’re part of a minority group.

      But you’re right, the boundaries are biggest for the majority groups, and generally get less restrictive and tolerant as the population falls. One place this doesn’t always apply as proportionately as we would expect in the US is religion, both because of our country’s history as a haven for a religious minority, and because “practicing religion” is seen as a heterogeneous group.

      I agree, otherkin, bronies, furries, and other “fringe” groups are at least more widely recognized, if not respected, but the expanding knowledge of their existence indicates that tolerance is trending upwards. After all, increased exposure to a minority has a very high correlation with increased tolerance and acceptance.

      1. Snark*

        I think you’re hitting on a good distinction here. I think it’s possible to be pleased that people are embracing non-mainstream affiliations and subcultures without shame, and that people can find their tribes so much easier now….while also holding firm to the tacit understanding that there’s a difference between being true to your own authentic self and expecting the wider world around you to validate your affiliation, embrace its particulars, and accept intimate levels of detail about it.

        1. Manders*

          Well said. I typed out a long and rambling comment about the people from oddball groups I’ve known who manage to stay professional, but you summed it up way more succinctly. There’s a pretty clear line between expecting tolerance and expecting to let it all hang out at work with no consequences.

        2. Arjay*

          White, heterosexual, married, cis female here – pretty mainstream identities. And my boss still has no desire to see me be my “authentic self.” My authentic self is bitchy and challenging and smarter than he is: he prefers me to be nice and accommodating and that’s what he pays me for.

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, this. My authentic self wants to sit on my butt and knit all day. My boss is cool, but not THAT cool. She wants me to work when I’m on the clock.

    11. An Underemployed Millennial*

      I think it’s fine to be into that subculture if that’s your thing, it’s not hurting anyone, but I don’t know if growling at customers will ever be accepted in most professional environments unless you happen to work at a haunted house or something.

      1. Tardigrade*

        Right. I feel like acceptance would look more like:
        “I’m a wolfkin.”
        “OK.”

        Rather than:
        Growling/crouching
        “Hey that’s cool.”

        Because, hey, that’s not cool.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Many pet-parents consider growling to be a threat and unacceptable.
          Growling and crouching, in other words positioning to pounce with intent to injure, is even worse.

          Honestly, I am having a hard time picturing why this would be a norm in a workplace.

          1. An Underemployed Millennial*

            Yeah. I refer to my cat as my son on a pretty regular basis but would certainly never act like a cat at work, ESPECIALLY when dealing with customers, and expect to not be fired. Granted, I don’t really believe I am a cat or that my cat is my biological child, but I can see why other people might think I was weird just for comparing him to a human child at all.

            1. Snark*

              I’m trying to imagine how weird it would be if I acted like my dog at work. I’d just stare at people until they did what I wanted.

              1. Tardigrade*

                /rolls in the floor to expose belly, eyes widened, head tilted, hands dangling limply for added cuteness/

                1. Snark*

                  *Runs frantically after squirrels on fence, whimpers plaintively, play bows*

                  Collies are weird.

              2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                I wanna act like my cat at work — nap all the time, except to wake up and scream at people when I’m hungry.

                Sadly, they don’t generally pay people to do that.

                1. An Underemployed Millennial*

                  Yeah if you ever find a company that will pay you to do that please let me know because I’m so in.

            1. An Underemployed Millennial*

              No I haven’t, though I have several years of restaurant, two years of tutoring teenagers, and a year of tech support experience so I can understand the urge.

        3. OlympiasEpiriot*

          As someone who has trained the occasional dog and worked with sled dogs (which have to work as domesticated within a more explicit pack behaviour than normal domestic life gives you), I would not consider growling and crouching or hunching the shoulders or trying to make hair stand on end to be acceptable in a work environment.

          If the sled dogs start arguing with each other, I stop and perhaps rearrange the dogs on the gangline. If dogs from different teams get close and start trouble, we separate them and maybe change the order of the sleds in the group. This is because they are not doing their jobs. If a human wants to adopt canine behaviour, they better keep work dogs in mind, too.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Early intervention is way preferable and much cheaper than late intervention.

    12. DoesThatMakeMeSpeciest*

      I must not be as open minded as I thought because the link led to an example of “otherkin” behavior that, had I witnessed, I would assume the person was having a mental break down. Crouching on the floor and growling and snarling? And they thought their manager would be ok with that?

      Do what you want in your own home or even in general public but your basic behavior at work needs to imitate expected human behavior and norms

    13. fposte*

      I don’t believe they will, but who knows? If the culture shifts so that supporting that behavior is a priority, then that becomes right to do.

    14. Ramza*

      So my thought is that on the one hand acting threatening toward customers is not something that is ever gonna fly but on the other I do think we shame these sorts of people more than we need to.

      I can remember being on websites that mocked furries heavily and while I did think what they did was silly, so what? They are still people and as long as they aren’t hurting anyone making fun of them just makes you an asshole. In that sense its kinda like LBGT, people often mock what they don’t understand and that’s shitty behavior, not just because it hurts those we mock but because I think acting like that is bad for us as well. I don’t really like the person I am when I mock others.

      1. Observer*

        Well, firing someone who GROWLS at customers, and doesn’t bring any plan for avoiding that kind of behavior in the future is hardly “shaming more then we need to.” It’s the minimum any responsible boss can do. When people actually claim that they got fire because they are theiran / otherkin as though it’s just the fact that they admitted to that, rather than because of the completely unacceptable behavior they were trying to excuse, of course there is going to be push back. Claiming that such a firing is “oppression” is either delusional or bad faith. Calling this stuff out loudly and firmly is not excessive shaming.

        To be honest of someone told me that they are really a cat (or whatever animal) in human form, I’d probably look at them differently and watching out for signs of poor judgement. But I would not typically think of firing them. But, but that’s a really different thing from acting like and angry (or even scared) animal in the workplace. That is something that CANNOT become acceptable.

    15. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      This isn’t directed at you personally, but…

      I am so, so, so friggin sick of weird personal choices being compared to LGBT rights. PSA to the world, my orientation is not your hypothetical kickball, please stop comparing it to every screwball behavior out there. “Well, people who wear sneakers on their hands are weird, but we used to think gay people were weird…?” STOP. Just stop. Not comparable. Get it out of here.

      Discrimination against LGBT people is based on a lot more than ‘oh you’re weird’ and it ties in to gender roles and religious beliefs. This is stuff we have experienced significant personal and legislative violence over. Please leave us out of your hypothetical nonsense. Someone’s choice to hump a body pillow is not even in the same realm.

      2. Rozine*

        But do you think that if someone believes they truly have the brain or soul of a wolf or another animal and they identify as that animal, it should be accepted just as any other form of identity? Is it not discrimination to deny someone that way?

        1. Snark*

          People embrace all kinds of identities, religions, and tribal affiliations that they feel so strongly about as to believe it’s a calling or an immutable truth. That doesn’t mean they’re necessarily treated the same way as inborn characteristics like orientation, gender, or ethnicity, or that they should be.

          1. Jules the Third*

            My caveat: We don’t actually *know* for sure that otherkin identification is a choice and not an inborn variation of the temporoparietal junction. Nobody’s looked at it. It’s an assumption, and a judgement, of someone who is ‘other’.

            For a long time, and by some still today, inborn characteristics such as orientation and gender were labeled as choices. We’re only just now starting to understand how they work, biologically.

            While I greatly respect the struggles of LBGTQx, in my long association with the culture, I have seen orientations like bisexual and trans change, over time, from ‘b* can’t make up her mind’ and ‘b* doesn’t want to come out of the closet’ to a more respected and accepted role. There was a strong tendency for the embattled group (LG) to ‘circle the wagons’ and require clarity. It made sense given the social and legal challenges of the times, but it was a huge step forward when the LBGTQx community became empowered enough to be more tolerant of ambiguity.

            I do, and always will, work for equal protections for all identities under the law and within society. I recognize my privileges, and try to understand the struggles faced by people without the same. I want everyone to be able to be themselves, and I hope it makes for happier lives. But if you can afford it, be kind.

            My aspiration to kindness starts with the assumption that people’s self-perceptions are inborn, even when that self-perception makes no sense to me.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Discrimination is unequal treatment, not my opinion on someone’s hobby.

          Please do not compare the ongoing national debate about whether people can deny me services because I’m not living in compliance with their religious beliefs to “oh look at this person being weird on the internet.”

        3. fposte*

          Depends what you mean by “accepted.” I don’t need to argue them out of it, but I also don’t need to deal with it. Just because it’s an important identity to you doesn’t (currently, anyway–I think the question is about the future) mean that it’s relevant or professional at your workplace. That’s where we landed with the “wearing a BDSM collar at work” thing, after all.

          (I also think there’s a really animal-damaging anthropomorphism at the heart of such approaches that bothers me even more than cat ears in the workplace, but that’s a separate rant.)

        4. disconnect*

          I think that’s a great question and worthy of discussion, and it deserves to stand on its own and not at all be compared to gender identity or sexual orientation.

      3. La Chismosa*

        My point is about acceptance. Don’t you think x number of years ago people thought being gay was weird? not normal? they could not imagine why anyone would be like that? Now looking at these new-ish emerging behaviors/communities and being accepted, that is my comparison. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Today, in today’s world, people are being killed for being gay. They’re being thrown in concentration camps. They’re being subjected to personal violence, rejection, and hatred.

          Stop making this comparison. Seriously, stop it.

        3. Tardigrade*

          But these kinds of arguments are co-opting the struggles and experiences of LGBT persons, and unfortunately they haven’t fully gained the rights and acceptance you’re discussing. There’s a long and complex history behind this issue, a heck of a lot more than “people thought it was weird.”

        4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Show me a coordinated nationwide campaign to “fix” furries by subjecting them to ongoing physical and sexual abuse. Show me where kids who identify as furry are 40% more likely to be homeless and experience many times the level of abuse that non-furry kids do. Show me the stats where damn near half of them make serious suicide attempts before age 18. Then talk to me about how “it’s all really just about acceptance.”

          1. Snark*

            Exactly. You can’t pare down the comparison. It carries this kind of baggage, whether you wanted to carry it or not.

                1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                  And the point of many comments, including the one heading the subthread your in, is to leave real people’s actual current suffering out of your damn hypotheticals.

                2. Snark*

                  Not hypothetically, you can explore that question without resorting to offensive comparisons that co-opt real, painful experiences for your rhetorical convenience.

            2. Paperclip Plenipotentiary*

              Homosexuality is a fact of human existence. Denying it is stupid and cruel.

              Furriesness is a n

              1. Paperclip Plenipotentiary*

                …while Furries are a niche sexual fetish somehow coalescesed into existence by socio-psycho-sexual trends.

          3. Jules the Third*

            Otherkin is a not furry. Furry is a clear lifestyle choice. Otherkin’s ‘choice’ aspect is less clear. Conflating the two is like similar to saying drag queens are transgender.

            Furries do not face structural, governmental violence as LBGTQx have and do, but they do face elevated suicide rates, and many times the level of abuse / bullying as non-furry. It’s not usually because of being a furry, it seems to be more of a ‘got bullied and found furry fandom to be a safe space’ thing. (supporting doc in name link)

            Otherkin who express it before adulthood do face being medicated or imprisoned as people work to suppress their differences from normal, accepted social behavior. Anecdote, not data, but: I have two friends who are trans, and a third who was an elf when we were in high school together. All three struggled; the elf was threatened multiple times with involuntary commitment. He suppressed his perception, eventually. Did he abandon his identity, or grow out of a psychosis? Do we really get to judge that? Do we need to judge that?

            Can we extend compassion for a group that face significant social persecution because of their self-perception, without feeling that it lessens the struggle that other groups face?

            I can understand if the answer is ‘no, they are so far from the norm that the comparison threatens our position’, but that’s a different thing from ‘they don’t exist and aren’t worthy of compassion.’ My experience is that their self-perception can happen pretty early, and if expressed, presents them with threats very similar to those faced by LBGTQx.

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              I’ve got no argument with extending compassion. Mistreatment is mistreatment.

              However, I do have a very strong objection to drawing comparisons between LGBTQ oppression and otherkin/therian/etc treatment. It’s the same as trying to say that homo/transphobia is the same as racism — it’s not, and in a lot of cases, trying to draw that comparison winds up pushing a lot of the specific issues under the rug.

              For example, La Chismosa’s question and a lot of the responses wind up ignoring the religious and political oppression of LGBTQ communities and treating homo/transphobia as “people think of you as weird.” Being considered weird is probably the smallest part of what most LGBTQ people have to face, and certainly doesn’t hold a candle to systemic oppression. That is what is threatening and problematic — not the notion of comparison, but deliberately ignoring systemic oppression in favor of “well people are mean.”

              1. Jules the Third*

                This is a totally fair and reasonable critique. I agree with you completely.

                1. Jules the Third*

                  I really like the LBGTQx persecution and racism example – there are so many economic aspects to racism, and religious aspects to LBGTQx persecution that do make them relevantly different.

            2. Specialk9*

              I’m really thankful for this whole thread. My personal line is that I can’t know every experience personally, but I can listen and be as kind as possible when people seem to be suffering.

              I appreciate the queer perspective being shared here on the line between compassion and comparison.

              I have straight-up LG friends, but hang out more with people in the BTQA+ sides of the community, and I hear a lot of people who aren’t L or G talk about how the queer community often reacts with unkindness and open rejection to them (one quote to a bi friend was “you shouldn’t be here, because you can pass and I can’t, so you’re not really queer”), and how it’s only technically their community because there isn’t a better option for them.

              It’s always seemed odd to me that a group whose primary identity is around shared suffering isn’t kind unless the suffering fits into certain boxes. So I’ve been appreciating hearing some of the thoughts on the other side on why they’re so protective and react so strongly.

              And I get it, if anyone with a thing is in, it delegitimizes and dilutes the group.

              Educational all around. Thanks everyone for the shared insight.

        5. Betsy*

          I don’t think all strange behaviours or identities that are not considered normal will inevitably become normalised. For a start, I think there are too many different niche sexual behaviours or identities for them to all become mainstream. With sexual and gender identity, there have always been at least homosexual/homoerotic behaviours, if not always accompanied by clearly defined identities. There have also always been people who transgressed gender boundaries. And as others have pointed out, gender and sexuality are seen as key social divisions.

          I’m sure, though, that we’d be surprised by future identities if we were suddenly transported into the future; there will almost certainly be some we never would have predicted. I agree with you about that part.

          Early queer theory did try to argue more for coalitions between non-normative sexual groups, but that’s since become a pretty unpopular argument as queer people became pretty keen to keep their distance from groups like NAMBLA, for instance.

          For me, expectations around gender and sexuality have been quite restrictive up until recently, so that really accounts for people ‘deviating’ from the norm. Of course, if there are strict social rules about only having married procreative sex with someone of the ‘opposite’ sex, and men needing to act and dress in certain ways, and women being expected to be completely the opposite, then some people will break these restrictions. They were pretty much impossible to keep, so you could say the rules themselves ensured the ‘deviations’ in a way.

          However, I think not being a wolf is a pretty clear physical limitation of being a human, in a very different way than the idea that being born male means you shouldn’t wear lipstick and dresses and have long hair and be kind and caring. (*I’m not ruling out any biological influences here, but I think biology is beautifully variable).

      5. Dust Bunny*

        OMG this. And I’m a cis straight white woman. But my weird private life is not comparable.

      8. Tea*

        As another queer person whose eyes roll heavenward when people bring up any kind of comparison between animal/fandom identities with gender or sexuality I completely feel you.

        But…

        I know trans people and queer people who are mentally ill/also on the otherkin wagon, and who actively compare the “discrimination” faced by people in those groups to the oppression and struggles they faced being LGBT and/or to the struggles faced by mentally ill people trying to integrate with the rest of society. To be honest, I wholly disagree, but at the same time, it seems pretty crappy to argue with other queer folks or non cis folks about how they should or shouldn’t feel about the oppression they’ve faced.

    16. dr_silverware*

      Maybe. I only think it compares to homosexuality and being transgender once you get really, really, really deep in the weeds of “everything is a construct.” At that point you’re saying “since race is a construct you can be transracial, since gender is made up you can be a fictional character.” And that place is not actually helpful to start from, though it’s really easy to try to be so fair, so acknowledging of societal constructs, that you end up there.

      I think there’s a lot of value in meeting people where they are, whether that’s with quirks or mental health or health. But I still really don’t think that America especially is at all close to an anything-goes work atmosphere.

      Here are some of the litmus tests imo:

      1. Is this involving someone in my sex life or making someone think they’re being involved in my sex life? (Example: kinky sub wanting everyone to call her boyfriend her master)

      2. Is this plucking the strings of other social power structures? (Example: the waifu subculture in the US can end up pretty racist–rife with fantasies about submissive Asian women and acting out those fantasies on body pillows; or, more seriously, Rachel Dolezal)

      3. Is this harming anyone? (Example: frightening customers by growling and snarling, and being physically uncontrolled)

      4. Is this signal a problem with your decision-making (per grace’s comment)? (Example: if you’re deeply enmeshed in another subculture’s norms and misapplying those norms to work without recognizing that the culture and context are different)

      I think, for me, those are the big signs that a behavior needs to be modulated at work.

        1. dr_silverware*

          Yeah, I feel a little bad for being the one, since it’s such a gimme–but I do think that she’s a good example of erroneously reducing identity to “everything is made up and the points don’t matter” in a really harmful way.

          1. Snark*

            Yeah, no, wasn’t intending to call you out, it just struck me as an interesting parallel that didn’t really fit into any point I was going to make.

            1. dr_silverware*

              I get you, but thank you for the clarification–just thinking out loud a little more about an example that’s still pretty loaded.

      2. Manders*

        I think those litmus tests are great. #4 is the umbrella the rest all fall under–really, if you’ve got poor decision-making skills, you could be doing something inappropriate at work even if you’re not part of any oddball groups.

      4. Annie Moose*

        This is an incredibly useful comment to me. I’ve come in contact with some of these communities before (otherkin, “Snapewives”, etc.) and never knew how to articulate what my issues are and where to draw the line between “I don’t personally understand this and it squicks me out on a personal level” and “this is a legitimate issue and not just my personal issues”.

        I’m going to save a copy of these and have a look at them when I start getting weird about stuff. I know your focus was on work, but I think they can apply in other contexts too.

    17. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      Eh, I don’t think it will ever be fully accepted. LGBT identities have no impact on your ability to do your job. If you are a transwoman and want to be treated as a woman at work, that is your right and has no impact on your ability to do your job. On the other hand, if you are an otherkin who believes they are a wolf, wolves don’t have jobs and can’t do most human jobs, so that could theoretically very much impact your ability to do your job.

      Similarly, the gender of your partner has no bearing on your work, but just the generally concept of “being in a relationship” with an inanimate object or not real person or even a person you don’t know could definitely call into question your judgment. I would think it’s equally weird for someone to have a picture of Chris Evans on their desk and refer to him as their boyfriend as it would be to have a picture of a cartoon character, even though having a crush on a celebrity is much more conventionally accepted.

      1. Luna*

        I went to college with someone who used to refer to a certain celebrity as her boyfriend, in a serious way.

        Turns out that celebrity had an actual restraining order against her because she had been stalking him. She has pretty severe mental health problems.

        So I don’t think it does anyone any good to “accept” certain fringe behavior that is clearly not okay. It’s usually a sign of pretty serious mental and/or emotional health issues.

          1. fposte*

            Sure. But I also think implicit in the question was the notion that there’s a consensus about the expression of identity at work as a right, and I don’t think there is that consensus; I think it’s an overextrapolation from discussions about some specific kinds of identity.

            (BTW, really like your upthread post on this. I think it’s easy to be overdismissive on this–it’s a temptation I succumb to sometimes as well.)

      2. Specialk9*

        This is awfully dismissive of the simple fact that still today, many many people believe that being gay or trans is very applicable to work, because it’s a sign of perversion, mental illness, etc – and so calls into question one’s ability to make sound decisions (in the exact way people were questioning the husbando’s decision-making). My prior company was unusually LGB weighted (not friendly per se) and they almost all kept their personal lives very private because it would impact their careers. So I feel like these bright shining lines you’re drawing here are not really reflected in the reality I’ve seen.

    18. Rozine*

      If I identify as a cat and wearing cat ears to work is part of my identity and helps my dysphoria much like a trans person dresses as the gender they identify with, denying that is oppression is it not?

      1. Snark*

        No, it is not. And the comparison is a problem, and that’s been explained multiple times already, so maybe cut that right out.

        1. Sparkly Lady*

          But it does seem similar to the Body Integrity Identity Disorder thread. Whether caused by a mental illness, a currently unknown physical cause, or something else, if someone genuinely has serious distress that can be mitigated by cat ears or similar, why shouldn’t that be respected?

      2. Envoy*

        If you (this hypothetical, otherkin “you”) truly believed you were a cat and wanted to wear cat ears all the time, I would naturally also expect you to spend all of your time sleeping, hunting for and eating live mice, peeing in a litterbox, etc. I would expect you to be able to communicate solely in meows and growls, and to have no interest in “human” things like voting rights or iPads or oh I don’t know, working for a living.

        But as a human being who, presumably, IS interested in working for a living, you’d need to put the cat ears away and act like a human at work.

        2. Specialk9*

          A more compassionate answer would be:

          “Sure, wear your cat ears! But recognize that you’re far enough in the fringe that you will have to find or create a community in which that is considered acceptable. This may mean that making a living is very hard, or that you may have to balance making money with the need for your cat ears. But you get to make choices in life, and good luck!”

          But that may just be my hippie commune childhood talking here. :D

      3. fposte*

        No. At least not in current culture. Work limits all kinds of expression of people’s identities; that’s the default, and it’s a huge chunk of Alison’s columns. It’s not oppression; it’s the norm. It takes a lot of cultural work (and legal change) to carve out an exception to that default right.

      4. Paperclip Plenipotentiary*

        I’d accept you as long as you can walk the walk by eating tin of cat food for lunch.

        Cheap cat food mind.

        1. Specialk9*

          Seems weirdly punitive. Hey you’re weird, you shouldn’t be allowed to do this thing unless you do this other thing I find gross.

          (Side eye to you)

          1. Perse's Mom*

            I think it’s more about ‘you believe you’re a cat but conveniently only in the ways that are cute or positive, but not in any of the other ways that define a cat being a cat.’ If that’s how you’re a cat… then you identify as someone who likes to wear cat everywhere.

    19. Close Bracket*

      I except everybody as part of whatever community they want to identify with, although some, like other kids, I think our delusional. I won’t tell them their delusional though, I keep that to myself and smile and nod, just like I do when people bring up acupuncture.
      If my coworker growled at me, I would hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and yell, “NO!”

      2. La Chismosa*

        Acupuncture! hahaha

        I accept everyone as well. I grew up around gay, trans, and cross dressers and have a close trans friend who has otherkin friends. I love hearing stories! One is a succubus. She also has vampire friends who are in a small blood sharing community (although she told me that blood sharing is monogomaous and sex is poly).

        I have never met any otherkin people but I do have a 7 pointed star tattoo that I got when I was 18 (at the time I researched it, it was a type of spiritual star called the Elven star) and to my surprise the otherkin wikipedia page has that star as the “otherkin sign” hahah

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          For someone who “accepts” us you’re certainly very bad at listening to us.

          1. Betsy*

            To be a good ally, it might be better not to use phrases like ‘I have gay friends’ to justify disagreeing with queer people about queer issues. It’s been parodied a lot and reminds me of shows like Absolutely Fabulous, where one of Eddie’s catchphrases is ‘All my friends are gay’.

            1. Snark*

              And it usually helps to not implicitly assume the primacy of your own assumptions and experience when someone tells you you’re off base. It’s nice that you have gay friends. That doesn’t immunize you from stepping wrong or give you the benefit of blanket doubt.

            2. CityMouse*

              This. So much this. Cranky protective older sister time:

              I have observed my sister deal with real painful discrimination out in the world with her girlfriend. Things that you take for granted, like walking with your partner or eating at a restaurant, become fraught with peril. She got mistreated in school just because people guessed she was LGBT and by one of our aunts for just wanting to live her life quietly with her girlfriend.

              The comparison doesn’t work. Leave it.

    20. Rad Fem*

      One of the fun benefits of NOT bringing personal life (esp subcultures) into the workplace is that nice little feeling that one gets from having a “secret” or out side of work life!
      It does concern me that the internet has become a catalyst for mass folie a deux. Why should we all become non consenting participates in someone’s belief that they are other than their physical and biological reality?

      3. Snark*

        In the context of the transphobic site you linked to, I’m real not okay with that last line.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I like the assumption that you can be privy to someone else’s “biological reality” when you first meet them. And by “like” I mean “am rolling my eyes extra sarcastically hard at” cause that’s hilariously stupid.

        2. Galatea*

          Right? Loving the explicit transphobia being snuck in under the guise of dunking on otherkin, it’s a GREAT look /s

      4. Betsy*

        But how do you know that biology neatly divides into manly men and womanly women? How about people who don’t fit and how can you prove that’s not also a biological reality?

        I wish rad fems were still focusing on violence prevention and reproductive rights instead of bashing minorities. Because I really respect all the awesome stuff they did back in the day.

        1. CityMouse*

          As someone who has studied biology, the whole argument is also based on a complete understanding of biology. Nature itself is not binary, external sex characteristics and chromosomes are not always the same, showing that hormonal factors really are crucial to ones own sex identity and we know that people are exposed to a wide range of hormones in the womb. Biological knowledge shows that being transgender is actually “natural”.

          Of course even if it wasn’t this isn’t something that is anyone else’s business or decision.

          1. Jules the Third*

            I think you mean ‘INcomplete understanding of biology’, and yes yep yeppers to the rest.

            1. CityMouse*

              Yeah. I am bad at typing on my phone and need to proofread better (autocorrect doesn’t help).

          2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            People like this make me want to grow my beard out, just so I can stare them down challengingly.

            What biological reality am I then, huh?

            1. CityMouse*

              To be clear, I am saying that anyone who has taken a basic biology course knows that nature itself doesn’t have a good way of defining sex. Trying to define male or female using genetics or external sex characteristics would still leave ambiguities.

              Genes =/= biological sex characteristics =/= gender expression.

          3. Fumika*

            Humans are dimorphic animals- meaning male and females have different appearances and characteristics. Certain gender traits such as wearing dresses versus ties are certainly social constructs, however a trans woman cannot be truly female and vice versa. I think that was the point.

            1. fposte*

              But there is no “truly.” There is no immutable external measurement having nothing to do with human perception that makes that incontrovertible.

              1. Specialk9*

                Fumika, the point was understood, but it is a point contradicted by the very science it tries to simplify, twist and use as justification; and it is in contradiction with kindness and the golden rule in the religions it tries to simplify, twist, and use as justification.

                In short, it’s a mean ignorant bigoted point.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Nature is not binary.

              There are people who are intersex. There are people you would identify, on looking at them, as women — but they have XY chromosomes. I (presumably, I’ve never checked) have XX chromosomes, but I can grow a beard.

              Nature is not frickin binary.

              1. Fumika*

                That would be a deformity, people can certainly dress how they want or call themselves what they want, but you were either meant to carry a fetus or fertilize an egg. Wearing a dress does not change that

                1. fposte*

                  You’re falling afoul of the teleological fallacy there. The only “meant” comes from humans, and “meant” is generally the way they try to make their own beliefs sound external and immutable.

                2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                  Wowww.

                  Reducing people down to their reproductive organs is pretty fucked up, in case you weren’t aware.

                3. Amtelope*

                  What do you mean by “meant”? Biology doesn’t have intentions. Intersex people are as much a product of biological processes as XY males with typical anatomy and XX females with typical anatomy.

                  Also, you’re conflating sex and gender; even if it were true that there are only two biological sexes (reality is more complex), that isn’t the same question as how many genders a given society has, or who belongs to what gender.

                4. Just Jess*

                  OK, there’s a lot to address in your X:42pm comment Fumika, but I’m wondering what’s your point?

                  This sub-thread already covered that there are intersex people who can neither get pregnant nor get pregnant. There are people who grow beards (without hormonal supplements) who can get pregnant, there are people who are biologically XXY and so on. BTW, these people tend to not say “deformity” about themselves anymore than they’d say “Freak.” The “there are only two sexes and those two sexes line up with two genders” argument is done.

                5. Fumika*

                  Isn’t the purpose of having two sexes for biological reproduction? Having more than 2 actual sexes is redundant.

                  If you don’t like deformity then anomaly?

                6. Tardigrade*

                  Sexual reproduction produces more genetic diversity, the very thing you’re terming “deformity” or “anomaly,” but that has shit-all to do with how people identify. And it also seems reductive to suggest a person’s entire purpose is purely reproductive (meant to carry a fetus or fertilize an egg). Wheezus.

                7. Just Jess*

                  First, I have a small typo. I meant to say that there are fully complete, worthy, and valid people who can neither get pregnant nor get someone else pregnant. They are awesome folks who have lives that are bigger than their reproductive systems.

                  Second, I’m acknowledging the response to be that “having more than two sexes is redundant” is Fumika’s stated point after this whole thread on acknowledging people’s identities as more than what their reproductive systems do.

                8. Amtelope*

                  Can’t nest comments any further, but two things: first, “the purpose of having two sexes is for biological reproduction” still implies purposeful creation. That’s not how evolution works. The existence of more variation than “there are two sexes” may be redundant for reproduction, but lots of features that evolve are not perfectly “efficient,” because evolution does not work that way.

                  And second, sex is STILL not equal to gender. How many sexes humans have does not determine how many genders humans have. Those are not the same question.

                9. Specialk9*

                  I have a friend with Turner Syndrome, XO, which comes with sterility. Tell her to her face she isn’t a woman (or presumably even human, by your reasoning).

                  Actually, don’t, she might actually commit suicide this time.

                  You’re deeply cruel, Fumika.

                10. This Daydreamer*

                  People have been killed for being trans. They have lost jobs. They have been tortured. They have been tortured in the name of “therapy”. Trans people have faced every single kind of physical and mental violence out there.

                  Saying they’re deformed is, at best, adding insult to injury.

                  Science has shown us that there are demonstrable differences between his brains and trans brains. Imagine waking up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex. Would you feel comfortable? Would you feel like you can truly be yourself in this foreign body? I know I would be extremely uncomfortable in a man’s body.

            3. CityMouse*

              My point then is that nature isn’t binary. For instance, XY individuals with total androgen insensitivity naturally appear completely female and often behave and identify as totally female. Genetics and phenotype do not match up.

              There really is no such thing as totally male or female in biology because genotype=/=phenotype. There is no one way to define sex that nearly puts everyone in logical boxes.

      5. Jules the Third*

        Because everyone gets to define their own self. You don’t get to define it for them. Their identity is not up for your participation.

        It is the one freedom that every adult should have – control over their own self, body and mind.

      6. Rulesfor*

        Alison, if you see this and get the chance, I’d really appreciate seeing you address this comment in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

    21. Laura H*

      I don’t want to be offensive so FWIW, I’m straight and cis, thus my sense of this issue is highly skewed and not at all comprehensive.

      Haven’t read the replies to this yet but I don’t think this stuff is likely to go mainstream anytime soon. The LGBT stuff is just now getting where it needs to be- but still prolly has a long way to go. (This isn’t my area of expertise.)

      Again my opinion is sorta small potatoes, but I feel like this kin stuff undermines the progresses that other classes (lgbt, disabled,women- im prolly forgetting some) have made in the workplace.

      Frankly- I’m still torn between whether that particular expression of fandom of yesterday’s letter is either “mad props for doing something I never could” or “I’m all for having a Mr. Really Hot in one’s fandom of choice but THAT is waaaay too far”.

      1. Manders*

        Yes, you put your finger on the thing that’s really making me uncomfortable here. Is it ok to have a quirk like an anime boyfriend or a wolf persona? Sure. There’s no need to go out of your way to “fix” a coworker who’s got a weird but harmless habit.

        But the language about discrimination and acceptance comes from some really painful, complicated stuff and the people who worked hard for labor rights aren’t going to drop everything to fight for your right to growl at customers.

        1. DoesThatMakeMeSpeciest*

          Why does a wolf need a job? Don’t they need a pack? Isn’t a human job against their nature anyway? If you can rationalize the need for an animal to be employed then you can rationalize that they need to behave like a human to keep that job.

          1. Manders*

            I think we’re pretty much in agreement here. I don’t think you can logically argue someone out of their belief that they’re a wolf, but you can hold them to the same standards of professionalism as everyone else.

          3. VelociraptorAttack*

            I also want to pop in and say you’ve been wonderful through this whole thread, thank you for no doubt being annoyed and mentally exhausted throughout your day in order to share your thoughts.

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Hah, thank you! I spent enough years quietly cringing and saying nothing in the face of people being homophobic and nasty; now that I’m old enough and confident enough in myself, I’m pretty much ready to fight for my rights whenever.

          4. Autumn anon*

            I too want to add my voice to those thanking you. I really appreciate your comments on this thread and the emotional energy you’ve put into making them.

        3. Alton*

          I think that last sentence is key. It’s not that multiple groups can’t have some similar experiences or even conceptualize their own identities in similar ways. This just doesn’t make them the same or directly comparable. I also think that there’s especially baggage associated with drawing comparisons to LGBT people because because 1) LGBT people are often compared to or accused of being sexual predators and 2) the nature of sexual orientation and gender identity make them inherently subjective and difficult to define, and many people are accused of making things up for attention, going through a phase, or being “confused.” So comparing LGBT identities to identities that are often more explicitly sexual (like BDSM) or that come across as pretend to many people (like being otherkin) has some heavy baggage.

    23. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

      I do know someone who considers themselves, a bit, otherkin. However, they don’t really display it at work all that much. When they do, it’s considered one of their quirks because they’re a barista and they can read people extremely well. So they know when / when not to bring in a customer or employee for what they’re doing. Their co-workers have accepted them well but they’re also in Madison. Madison is one of those places where I think it’s more “oh, they’re doing that, okay” type places than a lot of other places in the US. I think it would be okay in the same type of job in Chicago but with a lot more side glances / complaining to management about it. They really picked the right place to have their quirk (their word about it, not mine).

    24. Mephyle*

      Many people have repeated that the person was “growling at customers” but note that this wolfkin wasn’t growling AT customers, they were growling and hunching over at work when customers might have seen them (and probably did). Still not appropriate, but not the same as interacting with customers in a growling fashion.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Eh, I think that might get into the “distinction without a difference” point. Just because there isn’t a customer actively looking at you at the very moment doesn’t mean you’re no longer under the obligation to act like a professional at work.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Yeeeeah, I don’t think that makes any kind of difference. Growling, hunching, scratching in places humans find inappropriate? That’s not ok in the workplace, and call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I am just fine with it staying that way.

      2. Mephyle*

        I’m not saying it was in any way appropriate or professional (it’s not!) but it still seems to me that the distinction is the same as between saying “F* you” to a customer, or saying “sorry, this f*ing pen is out of ink” in front of a customer. Both are offensive to the customer, but the former is aggressive toward the customer where the latter isn’t.

        1. Observer*

          Actually, if someone were screaming that and slamming the pen in full view of the customer, most people would consider it aggressive enough to be a problem.

        2. Mephyle*

          I agree. I’m not making a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable, or comfortable and uncomfortable, but between aggression directed towards a customer and behaviour (unacceptable as it is) which is not aggression directed towards a customer.

      3. Observer*

        Also, no “might” about it. One of the reasons he was acting this way was because there were customers there who were addressing him, and he was overwhelmed. He was reported by some of those customers.

  16. Foreign Octopus*

    I have a problem that’s come up this afternoon.

    I’m an ESL teacher and I normally have to explain to students why certain words can’t be said – think swear words – and I also have to teach them the degree of severity. For example, why shit isn’t as bad as fuck. It’s part of my job and I don’t mind it because I have the same difficulty in Spanish of understanding which swear words are stronger than others. You need someone to explain and I’m that someone.

    However, this afternoon, one of my students used the n-word to describe the Luke Cage Netflix show. He said “and that n***** show”. At first, I thought I misheard because he said it so quickly but when he repeated it, I stopped him and explained that we don’t use that word to describe black people, we simply use the word “black”. Normally (this has happened once or twice before), that stops it and they’re really embarrassed that they made the mistake and it’s not a problem, they never use it again.

    This student though said “oh, I know, it’s just between us” and then proceeded to ramble on.

    I’m really not sure what to do now. I addressed it in the moment how it wasn’t appropriate but the fact that he knew it wasn’t and said it was between us shocked me for long enough that he was able to keep talking. I have one more lesson booked with him and then I intend to not take any more classes from him because it’s made me deeply uncomfortable.

    My question is, how should I have approached it after the second point where he said it was just between us from an ESL point of view (I know how I would have done it in a normal situation but in this situation where the language is a second language, I’m torn on my approach).

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I don’t think the ESL dimension really makes this all that different from how you’d handle it normally. When the student says “Oh I know, it’s just between us” you stop him and reiterate that no, it’s not just between us, that is not acceptable language and it won’t be tolerated.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yes, exactly this.

        Octopus, you definitely have room to push back in the next lesson and say, “I was thinking about you using the n-word in our last lesson and I wanted to bring it up again because it’s important that I emphasize how incredibly offensive and unacceptable that word is for you to say — in fact, I won’t hear it being used at all. There isn’t a context you’ll ever be in where it will be ok for you to say that word.” Depending on your relationship with him, I think you could also talk about the impact using a word like that will have on how he is perceived.

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          I really, really like this script. I’ve just copied and pasted it so that I don’t forget it.

          As for my relationship with him, today was my first lesson with him so he’s a brand new student. He’s booked one more lesson with me (he booked two at once) and depending on his reaction when I use this script, I might not continue with him.

          Thanks so much for the great words. I really appreciate it.

        2. Little Bean*

          I do think it’s possible that the ESL dimension is relevant, because hopefully the student doesn’t realize the history of this word. It’s possible he’s just thinking that it’s like a swear word – you shouldn’t use it in polite company but it’s ok to say around friends. I have known people from other countries who have used the n-word rather casually before being informed that it was not ok in the US.

          2. Julianne*

            I’m also an ESL teacher, and I agree; it’s still not acceptable to use certain words, but without knowledge of the historical/cultural/etc. reasons why we don’t use certain words in English, it’s conceivable to me that in the first-ever conversation about a word, the learner may not grasp just how serious it is. I have had this experience as a teacher of English with the n-word, as well as other derogatory terms for black people, and also with derogatory terms for East Asians. That said, this possible lack of understanding isn’t a free pass for the student to use the word repeatedly or ignore/brush off correction, and I do think it’s part of my/our job as ESL teachers to address it. I like Parenthetically’s script!

      4. Alternative Person*

        I think the ESL dimension can matter because you’re dealing with a different set of cultural norms, and with people who might not be old enough to truly understand the nuances involved with certain words, or might not have access to the kind of information that would make the difference clear and might not even have the language to understand why its a problem. I work in Japan and there are several well, blindpots when it comes to things like racial issues that a lot of people, especially young people don’t understand because they don’t know the history or haven’t seen how it functions in real life and don’t have the frame of reference for it.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I don’t think it matters in the response, because what you’re saying is the same as trying to teach any kid social norms — first and foremost, ‘That is not a word we use. Do not use that word. There will be consequences if you do.” Understanding why is important, but getting it out of the working vocabulary is the most important.

        2. Observer*

          None of this is relevant. For some context – I’m a member of an immigrant community. I’d say 90%+ of my parents’ cohort learned English as adults. My husband is ALSO an immigrant, who learned English as a teen. So, I have a very good understanding of the reality of how these issues play out.

          People make a lot of weird mistakes when using a second language. That’s completely true. Which is why it was totally appropriate for Octopus to initially respond with an informational type of response. But the minute someone says “I know” and “This is just between us” that means that they ARE perfectly aware that what they just said is NOT acceptable in general polite company, at the very least, but they are saying it ANYWAY. Maybe they don’t get HOW bad it is, but they most definitely know that it was not appropriate.

          1. Foreign Octopus*

            I think this is a really interesting and relevant point of view. Thank you for sharing, Observer.

            People do make weird mistakes with their second language. God knows I have in Spanish (a memorable time was when I accidentally called a woman a dirty pig instead of ordering a specific white wine with a name that was very close to a sexual slur in Spanish – oh, the fun).

            I’m troubled by the fact that I didn’t shut it down after he said “this is between us”. I felt uncomfortable with what was happening and I moved past it and I wish that I hadn’t because that’s not the type of person I want to be.

            I’m not sure if he’s aware of how bad it is but since he knows it’s a bad word and showed no remorse for using it after I explained it wasn’t something we used, I’m not really willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this situation.

            1. Specialk9*

              Lots of us draw a blank in the moment and need some time later to reflect (that’s my whole life in a nutshell!). It’s totally ok to come back later and address it. I used to think that I either had to say something then or never, but it’s not true.

              And as someone who has lived in foreign languages, ‘oh I know’ can mean I’ve learned a rule incorrectly or from someone who is not correct, not that I’m not open to a better rule. Getting a better handle on how to act is a huge kindness to people floundering through unfamiliar waters.

      5. A Teacher*

        fellow teacher, high school for what its worth. Can you do an SEL lesson on the context of the word? I know one of our SPED teachers is doing one on students using the terms “queer” and “gay” as insults and students saying that they would beat their kids if they came out that way. I think how you initially handled it was great, lots of random stuff comes up when teaching. Focusing on what we can use. Like a compare contrast or, and I don’t always love them, a mini Socratic seminar with terminology?

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          Normally I do that with students that I’ve had for a while where we take certain phrases and we talk about the history of the word but he’s a brand new student and he said it within 15 minutes of meeting me, which made me very surprised.

          1. A Teacher*

            Might be good for a compare contrast activity with terms–even with new kids. It can also be tied to class expectations and use of certain words or types of words.

      6. Lady Sybil*

        It’s just possible the ESL dimension is partly relevant. On the one hand, this person obviously does know that the word is inappropriate. On the other, there might be room for some benefit of the doubt as to their awareness of just how inappropriate it is for them to use it.

        For context, English is my second language as well and I have noticed that even relatively proficient ESL speakers residing in non-Anglophone countries often do not quite understand the specific history of this word in English and its reclaiming – it’s the latter that seem to confuse them. After all, they do hear it used in entertainment, and might even think it’s transgressive in a cool sort of way.

        So if (IF!) you think there might be more ignorance than racism here, this might be a worth clearing up. This looks like a relevant reading assignment for your student: https://quartzy.qz.com/1127824/ta-nehisi-coates-explains-why-white-hip-hop-fans-cant-use-the-n-word/

    2. dear liza dear liza*

      I would shut it down, politely but firmly. I had a colleague who had recently immigrated from another country and while her English was fluent, she didn’t know the accepted nuances of slurs etc, and she would often try to wave off derogatory language with, “oh, you know what I mean.” We were also work friends, so I think she felt she should have more verbal freedom. I took to saying, “No, that’s not okay. Don’t say that, even to me.” She’d roll her eyes at me, but she did rein it in.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, I used to have a coworker who spoke good English but wasn’t up to speed on the subtle meanings. He had sense enough to come ask a few of us whom he trusted particularly, before using any new and unfamiliar words. Mostly, they were harmless, but we had to warn him off a few terms.

    3. Tardigrade*

      Oh boy. Is there any chance he thought it was a swear like “fuck” and not a racial term? Or something like that?

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        That should be part of the conversation, it’s not okay because it is a terrible word to use and shouldn’t EVER be used even if you hear others use it, not because it’s a curse word that’s not okay in certain situations.

        Some native English speakers still don’t understand that.

      2. Emi.*

        Yeah, if he just thinks “sh–” is a rude way to say “poop” and “n—–” is a rude way to say “black person,” you have to clear that up. This is a different ball of wax from “don’t swear.”

      3. Foreign Octopus*

        I’m not sure. Sometimes it’s hard to tell what sort of influence has reached certain students. There are some countries where students know immediately it’s unacceptable, and others where they might have heard it in a TV show or film and not made the connection.

        1. Sleepy teacher*

          I had this type of situation with an ESL student, who in response to the question “What did you do at the weekend?” answered “I was hanging out with my n*****s”… he’d picked up the word from some media he’d been consuming, and genuinely thought it was an informal way of saying “friends”. He hadn’t grasped that the word was being used in an incredibly specific context, and had no idea of the connotations associated with it.

    4. ANon.*

      “You might not be fully aware, but that word is not appropriate to say to anyone under any conditions or circumstances. Ever. If I ever hear you say that word again, I will have to terminate our lessons.”

    5. Alternative Person*

      If the student’s level is high enough and you have time (and knowledge), you could try talking about the historical and societal connotations and the ‘meaning’ meaning of the language involved.

      I had a student somewhat naively connect Muslims with terrorists and basically all the bad, untrue things people say about Islam and spent about ten minutes talking about and debunking the various misconceptions in somewhat simplified terms. The student seemed somewhat surprised but was very receptive (she’s one of my best students).

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I do generally try to do that, simply because I really like the history behind words and why they’ve come to mean what they are, and most of my students appreciate it. I find the conversations that follow are really informative for both parties.

        Part of the problem with me was that I was just so surprised that he used it and then admitted to knowledge of it. Normally when I call people out on it, they stop using it. I’m slightly ashamed of myself that I didn’t press harder because I felt embarrassed.

    6. Snark*

      I think you need to re-address it, and emphasize that racism is not an okay thing even if it’s between two people not of the race being slighted. That’s a big deal. He might not understand that it’s, like, the Tsar Bomba of offensive things to say in English, but whether he thought it was milder than it is or not, he can’t go doin’ that.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can approach it two ways:

      1. “I wanted to come back to you about you saying ‘It’s just between us.’ That word isn’t appropriate to use ever. It isn’t something that is just offensive in the presence of Black people. It is offensive period. I don’t approve of racism just because I’m _______ [whatever you are—not Black, I’m assuming?].”

      2. You’re the teacher. This student is learning English. You have to explain from a teacher perspective (not just a human being perspective) what the meanings and appropriate uses of words are in the English language.

    8. Not That Jane*

      Depending on his background, you could also just let him know who his bedfellows would be if he got into the “real world” outside of class and used that word. That is, tell him something like, “I know you don’t intend this at all, but if you use that word in front of almost anyone, you can come across to them as the worst kind of racist / white supremacist. That may not be true in your native language / culture, but it is true here and you should know that so you can make sure to come across how you would want to.”

    9. Observer*

      This has nothing to do with this being a second language. This guy knew that he was using an unacceptable word. He just thought he could use it with you because you share his racist ideas (or his level of potty mouth).

      Had he either apologized or asked questions about it, that would have been one thing. But when someone uses an unacceptable word and TELL YOU that he KNOWS it’s unacceptable, there is no wiggle room.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This guy knew that he was using an unacceptable word. He just thought he could use it with you because you share his racist ideas (or his level of potty mouth).

        Precisely this. He knew exactly what that word meant – he said what he said. Anti-blackness is not just an American thing, it’s worldwide, so no, he doesn’t need to be given any benefits of doubt.

      2. Specialk9*

        Enh, not necessarily. When I lived in Spain, a common term used by university students to mean “awesome” was “puta peor”, or “worst b1tch”. (There are worse translations.) ‘Good I saw the worst-b1tch movie, it rocked.’ I thought it was bad, but along the line of b1tchin’, not along the line of f-ing. I put my foot in it, using that in other company, thinking I was showing my hard-earned colloquial slang, but I was just being very offensive.

        I’ve also mixed up git and tw@t with British people. Git is an insult, and kindergartners shouldn’t use it, but it’s pretty mild. Tw@t is basically the c-word, and as offensive. So there are lots of ways to think you’re being a little edgy, but not realize you’re way way way over the line.

        1. Specialk9*

          Or Germans with sh1t – the apparent equivalent “scheisse” seems to be used pretty casually, by respectable German grandmothers I’ve known… But it’s just not used that way in English. They use it like “crap” (a word that also means excrement and isn’t the most refined word, but isn’t a curse), but the similarity in meaning and sound throws them off.

    10. another ESL teacher*

      It’s still your prerogative to go back to it now. After all, if you realized that you taught the subjunctive and you didn’t address inversion, it would be perfectly fine to say “ok, returning to something we discussed yesterday, I want to give you more detail about how people use this grammatical structure.”
      While it’s great to get bigots to change their worldview, it requires a level of emotional labor, and an investment of time, that I can’t provide any more.
      In the end I focused on 1 enforcing standards for respectful behavior and language in the classroom and 2 communicating the expectations for professional behavior in American firms. This is actually similar to some of Allison’s advice — reframe success not as “getting your jerk direct report to become a nice person” but as “requiring your direct report to behave appropriately in the office.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        While it’s great to get bigots to change their worldview, it requires a level of emotional labor, and an investment of time, that I can’t provide any more.

        Additionally, getting bigots to change their worldview is a lofty goal, but there is a lesser and still worthy goal of not giving them free rein to use racial slurs in front of other people. Sometimes changing behavior is a good first step. I don’t need to hear every horrible thought that every person has just because they have those thoughts.

      2. Foreign Octopus*

        I think this is great advice. Thank you.

        I think I do need to go back and enforce the behaviour because it made me very, very uncomfortable, and you’re right about the fact that if it had been grammar or something else, I would go back to it without a problem. Thanks for this.

    11. Shannon*

      Can you explain the historical significance behind that term? That it’s not just a bad word, that there’s a lot of ugly history behind it?
      Maybe that will help the student.

      1. Bleeborp*

        Everyone here seems to have really jumped to the conclusion that since the student knew it was bad they are definitely racist and there is nothing left to teach them that could help. The poster was very clear that the issue was explaining the severity of different words and it could easily be the issue that the student is underestimating the severity of the word and needs more context to know exactly how bad it is.

    12. disconnect*

      “And keeping it between us, I find that word gross and offensive. Don’t use it again.”

    13. Spider*

      If it helps, when I took Russian in college, both of my professors took the time every semester to talk to the class about the cultural minefield of swearing in your non-native languages.

      In your native language, you learn by experience how much of a social taboo it is to say one word over another, and in what circumstances is it socially acceptable to violate those taboos and to what degree. But in learning other languages, everyone thinks it’s funny to learn the profanities, but you really shouldn’t use them with native speakers because you really can’t tell what kind of impact you’re having.

      In Russia in particular, swearing is more shocking than it is in the US and basically has its own dialect — my native-Russian speaker would even reword sentences in our textbook that used words which were (in another context) euphemisms for profanity, because she was uncomfortable using them herself and teaching us to use them in any context. (An analogy might be something like the word “sucks” in English — “this sucks” is a pretty mild term these days, but imagine the professor rewording the sentence, “The hummingbird sucks nectar from the flower” to avoid saying “sucks”. That might seem like kind of an extreme move to avoid an innocuous word, but it really struck me as an indication of how much more impactful profanity is in Russia vs the US.)

      So, all this long-windedness to say, I think it would be a great idea to spend some time in class on the issue of profanity with your ESL students as a whole. You can then pull individual students aside and talk to them about particular words they’ve used, reminding them of what you told the class.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh yeah, my Russian boyfriend wouldn’t even teach me curse words in Russian when I was studying it, and he used the f-word in English like a Marine. He practically got the vapors at the idea, which… was odd. So that’s useful context!

    14. Not So NewReader*

      “oh, I know, it’s just between us”

      No, he does not know.

      This is what causes racism to remain alive. People tolerate it in their private conversations because “it’s just between them”. You can explain to him that we EACH are responsible for ending racism, sexism and so on. And we do that by telling the offender NO. It does not matter if it is a one-on-one conversation or a group who know each other fairly well.

      If it were me, I would have to say, “When I tell you guys that something is reeeeally bad to say in English, ‘oh I know, it’s just between us’ is NOT the correct answer. The correct answer is an apology to the group and a promise not to do it again.”

      You may have to have this conversation again when he finds the c-word. It will be handy to have this to go back to.

  17. RemoteDreams*

    My first interview went well! Have a second interview setup for the beginning of next week. My remote dreams might come true :) This one’s via Skype. Anyone happen to have any awesome advice for video interviews? I know the general stuff, like dress up and pick the one room of your house that’s good looking (that’s the hard part, haha).

    Also, I had to name a number despite trying not to, so I suspect if I get an offer it could be that number… is it possible to negotiate up after you’ve named a number? I feel like as long as I didn’t push it, it’d be fine? Something like “after learning more about the position…”

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve done a few skype interviews, and I would just make sure you’re in a location with good internet connectivity, not the one black hole in the house where the router never quite seems to reach. Also, give yourself a few extra minutes on the front end in case any technology issues arise – I’ve had my internet randomly cut out 5 minutes before a skype call and I frantically had to reset the whole thing and wait for my laptop to reconnect.

      Also, if you have any pets (or kids, I suppose) who like to make noise, make sure they’re safely sequestered away from the room you’ll be interviewing in. Nothing like trying to stay calm and professional while a deranged cat tries to break down the office door (ask me how I know….)

      1. RemoteDreams*

        No pets or kids, only my partner. I’ll have to do my best to keep them from trying to break down any doors ;)

    2. Wendy Darling*

      Make sure your webcam isn’t pointed up your nose. If you use a laptop you might want to put it on a stack of books or something. Your interviewer won’t care, but you will keep looking at the little cutout window of your video and going OH GOD I HAVE EIGHT CHINS.

      I know this due to reasons.

      2. Snark*

        Warm lighting, too. Normal sunlight on a webcam makes me look like I’m about to shuffle off and eat brains.

    3. Triplestep*

      I googled this topic once and read a few tips about lighting. I can’t remember them, but just wanted to suggest you do a ‘net search yourself and not leave the lighting to chance.

    4. Make an assessment.*

      Ah sweet Skype. So simple, but remember – to simulate eye contact most accurately – to look into your camera, not at the interviewer — and PRACTICE this, because it’s super unnatural and hard to do consistently! But having been on the hiring manager side of this, wow, it’s an impressive (and rare, sadly) display of confidence. Good luck!

      1. RemoteDreams*

        Oooo that’s great, I always try to do this, but I bet practicing it would be so much better! Thanks :)

        1. SCanonibrarian*

          stick a sticky note with eyes drawn on it onto the webcam (don’t cover it up) to draw your eyes up
          there and give you something to look at. A friend took it a step further and put a nice encouraging smiling photo of her favorite celebrity up there.

    5. Goya de la Mancha*

      If you have a toddler and nanny – make sure the door is locked to your room….

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        The woman who came to get the children out of BBC Dad’s unlocked home office was their mother. His wife. Not the nanny.

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          Oops! I don’t know if I ever read anything on it, I just remember seeing the clip and they way she rushed in hunkered down reminded me of a employee going “oh shit, oh shit, please don’t see me screw up!”

          1. Specialk9*

            In the original, the lighting made the first kid look towheaded, and the second kid was bald so in pixelation also looked blonde. (In the follow on interview it was clear the older kid was dark haired, and the baby had dark stubble.) It’s not a leap to see a blonde dad, two light haired kids, and an Asian woman and think nanny. I get the underlying social reasons why people got so mad, but it’s not crazy for someone to have a nanny, or to piece together information the best you can.

    6. catsaway*

      Definitely do a test run of the lighting – Set up video on FaceTime or Skype etc so you can see how you look on camera before the interview starts. I’ve done Skype interviews and I’ve found that I need a good source of light behind the computer (i.e. in front of my face). Since it’s Skype you can use whatever stage lighting looks best in your room as as long as it’s not behind you the interviewer won’t know

    7. Shannon*

      My advice for skype interviews is to pin my resume and notes (like reminders of good “have you ever” stories) behind the computer. Make sure it doesn’t look like you’re reading when you glance up.

      Good luck!

    8. nep*

      Congratulations. Glad first one went well — all the best with the second one. That’s great!

  18. Leggings aren't pants*

    Does anyone have a short-and-sweet dress code for a business casual environment? I’m a new manager in a new place and I’d hoped to avoid having a written dress code (my boss said I could have one or not, up to me), but my direct reports have come in wearing jeans, sneakers, and leggings. I spoke to them individually about appropriate clothing and those conversations went fine, but I’m about to onboard a bunch of new people so I’d like a policy in place.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I don’t think a written dress code is something to avoid. It doesn’t have to be elaborate, but having something that employees can refer back to is actually a plus, not a minus.

      2. Turquoisecow*

        Yes, agreed. It doesn’t have to be super complex, but something that specifically lists what they *can’t* wear would be useful, and the fact that it’s written down means that it’s not just “manager doesn’t like this,” or otherwise subjective.

    2. Leggings aren't pants*

      To clarify: can you share a short-and-sweet dress code? Everything I’m coming up with seems too wordy.

      1. Arielle*

        Our dress code is “Do not come to work in anything you’d wear to the beach, the club, or to bed.” I think that’s pretty short and sweet.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Yeah, ours is basically that plus gym – jeans are fine but not sweatpants/track pants sort of thing.

        2. Yorick*

          That’s a terrible dress code. It isn’t at all specific about the sort of things you shouldn’t wear.

        3. JHunz*

          Short, yes, but the opposite of sweet. It’s so non-specific that it could be used against almost anyone at any time, without offering any real guidance to anyone new about what they actually should be wearing. If you read the policy literally about the only footwear allowed for anyone are soberly colored flats – sandals and sneakers are beachwear, high heels, platforms, and boots are clubwear. Is this actually that formal an environment?

          1. Arielle*

            No, it’s an extremely informal and casual environment that trusts people to be adults with their clothing choices. It doesn’t mean don’t wear any individual item of clothing that might hypothetically be worn to any of those places, it means do not wear an entire outfit that would be better suited to the beach, like shorts and a bikini top.

          2. Specialk9*

            And there are lots of clubs – chess club, country club, Fight Club, duck club, Babysitters Club. Which eliminates pretty much all clothing.

      2. Tardigrade*

        Maybe have a statement like, “business casual dress should portray professionalism: shirts/blouses, slacks, skirts, and dresses without holes and of appropriate length” and then list some things that absolutely should not wear, “no jeans, leggings, sneakers.”

        1. Laura H*

          On the topic of jeans, there is such a thing as “dressy denim” that my workplace allows- I don’t utilize that part of the dress code, but if I ever choose to-I’ll be certain to get 110% correct on what does and does not fall under that dressy denim category.

          It’s worth noting.

          Is it that you want a thorough dress code but concise?

        2. Not for profit mid-level cog*

          Our code is literally just a chart:
          Acceptable Casual Slacks, Pants, and Skirts; Casual Shirts and Blouses; Casual Dresses and Sweaters

          Not Acceptable Denim Blue Jeans, Cotton or Nylon Sweatpants, Athletic Attire, Shorts, Spandex or other Form-Fitting Pants; Tank Tops, Halter Tops, Bare midriffs, T-shirts, or Low Cut Necklines; Strapless or Spaghetti Strap Sun-dresses, Sweat Suits or Sweatshirts

          It’s not perfect, but it covers most of the bases.

      3. JustShutUpAlready*

        And, just so it might come up, you may want to add that “just because you’re feeling hot, you cannot remove your sweater and be seen only in your bra.” This has happened in a place I used to work. There are photos.

        1. Bored All Day*

          We had a guy who decided to work one day in our warehouse without a shirt on. I think it only happened one time, but still…

      4. CheeryO*

        Why not just keep it simple and say something like, “Dress code is business casual. No leggings, jeans, or sneakers, or [whatever else you don’t want to see at work] are allowed.” I’d say that most working adults are capable of parsing that.

      5. LKW*

        I haven’t seen one in a while but used to be

        1. Clothes are clean and presentable, no holes or “distressed” clothing
        2. Jeans and athletic clothing are not work appropriate, track suits, leggings
        3. Men must wear long pants, shirts with collars and shirts can not have logos, writing, images.
        4. Women must wear skirts or long pants (no capris), tops should not be sleeveless or one should wear a jacket or sweater.
        5. Flip flops, sandals or other open toed shoes are not acceptable.

        1. Specialk9*

          No sleeveless, capris, or going without jacket or sweater?! So… Orthodox Jewish business casual?

    3. anon 4 now*

      Unless you are public facing you are going to get A LOT of pushback on this. A lot of people consider the ability to dress casually for work a huge perk. Taking that away with no justification WILL torpedo morale.

      1. Leggings aren't pants*

        We are public facing, and my direct reports said the dress expectations were appropriate.

    4. Seal*

      Why not just spell it out? Something like the dress code is business casual – no jeans, no leggings, no sneakers, no sandals, or whatever else you don’t want to see in the office. Don’t go overboard, though – that just irritates people.

      1. Grits McGee*

        I like this approach- unless you’re working with people that reasonably might not be familiar with the broad requirements of “business casual” (ex- interns, people new to the workforce), then people probably won’t need every acceptable and unacceptable item delineated and defined. I could see a dress code looking something like this:

        “The dress code at Llama’s Inc. is business casual. Inappropriate attire includes:
        Jeans
        Leggings
        Shorts
        Sleeveless shirts
        Sandals
        Athletic shoes (Except when necessitated by medical accommodation)

        If you have any questions about the dress code, please consult [HR Rep/Manager/Etc]”

        1. LadyKelvin*

          I would edit this to say “Inappropriate attire includes but is not exclusive to:” that way if someone wears something to work that isn’t on this list and isn’t appropriate, they can’t argue that you didn’t tell them they couldn’t wear it.

          1. Seal*

            Agreed. I’d also add something about t-shirts with political messages or slogans and the like to the list – it might save someone from an argument down the road (such as t-shirts aren’t on the banned list, what’s wrong with this one?).

            1. Annie Moose*

              Well, if the dress code is business casual, T-shirts probably aren’t allowed anyway.

              Either way, you could do something like, “no shirts with text” (they often look less formal than shirts without text). I guess you could even say “no overt political or religious messages”?

        2. Shannon*

          I like this. Especially since it isn’t gender specific. Every dress code I’ve ever had was a full paragraph on how women should dress and a sentence to not wear jeans for men.

          1. Specialk9*

            Yeah, dress codes tend to be super restrictive for women, and not at all for men. (Restrictive and sloot-shaming, even for little girls.)

    5. Drama Mama*

      As an employee, I’d rather have the clarity of a written dress code than a “manager will call you out if you don’t read her mind” dress code.
      Why are you trying to avoid having a written one?

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          I think she’s trying to not reinvent the wheel if someone already has one? That’s how I took the post anyway.

      2. kb*

        Yeah, especially because talking to individual violators privately when there is no publicly available set of rules tends to perpetuate the issue and create more work for you. The original offender will stop, but someone else has seen the offender wearing jeans. The other person doesn’t realize the offender was talked to, so this other person will wear jeans, assuming it’s chill, and need to be talked to.

    6. Snark*

      “I’d hoped to avoid having a written dress code”

      I understand the temptation to want to be the hip manager who doesn’t have a list of rules, but dress codes are the kind of thing that really do need to be codified.

      1. Leggings aren't pants*

        Eh, I have no dreams of being hip. I just have witnessed how dress code battles can spiral out of control. At one place I worked, an employee would wiggle through every loophole, almost seeing the code as a challenge. “Sure, it says I have to wear closed toe shoes, so bedroom slippers should be fine.” Thankfully, I don’t have the sense that anyone here is looking for those kinds of games.

    7. a-no*

      Mine at work is pretty simple, it’s only a couple phrases and it works.
      1. if you can see up, down or through it – not appropriate for work
      2. if you could wear it to sleep/lounge in, go to the gym in, or party in – not appropriate for work *includes shoes
      3. better to be overdressed then under
      4. No visible undergarments, clothing must be whole (no ripped clothing), and cover ups must be available if your shoulders are visible (this is because we end up with a ton of high ranking people showing up on and off but in the summer, our A/C isn’t the best so we have to be able to cover up if needed)
      and there are a few photos of celebrities in appropriate wear and a big note at the bottom that says “if you are unsure if it’s appropriate, ask before you wear to work”

      When I worked in a business casual offices, they just gave us a list of Yes & No’s.
      No – jeans, sneakers, leggings, graphic tee’s etc
      Yes – blouses, cardigans, button up shirts (no ties required) etc
      But if it’s business casual are jeans that bad? Maybe it’s where I’m from (Alberta) but 90% of business casual here is wearing jeans with button ups / blouses and dress shoes (or cowboy boots but that’s a whole other thing)

      1. Leggings aren't pants*

        Thank you! This is very helpful. I personally think a dark wash jean can look professional, but the baggy acid washed jeans my direct report had on looked extremely casual.

        1. a-no*

          ah, the revival of the acid wash jean gives me nightmares. I don’t get it.

          I’d probably just put a note that “dark wash jeans are allowed” and leave it at that instead of listing all the not allowed jeans.

          1. Arjay*

            I think you either allow jeans or not. Even specifying dark wash leaves you having to interpret various levels of distressing, feathering, whiskering, etc.

            1. Windchime*

              Maybe. My workplace allows all jeans except “blue jeans”. So you can wear black jeans, purple jeans, pink jeans, green jeans…..but not blue jeans.

              It’s really weird.

      2. a-no*

        I really don’t know why my end italics won’t hold.. only the explanation on cover ups was supposed to be in italics.

        1. Weyrwoman*

          the capitalization should be consistent across the HTML tags, maybe that’s it? ending with instead of ?

    8. L*

      Company expects all employees to dress in business casual attire. Business casual attire includes suits, pants, jackets, shirts, skirts and dresses that are appropriate in length and fit for a business environment.

      Jeans, t-shirts, spaghetti strap/tank shirts and footwear such as flip flops, non-medical sneakers, and sandals are not appropriate for business casual attire.

      Employees are expected to demonstrate good judgment and professional taste in their appearance for work. Please check with your manager or HR if you have specific questions.

    9. Shiara*

      I think part of the problem is that business casual is -so- broad that everyone defines it differently, so I’m not sure if I can share something that’ll be applicable to you. (For instance, is it only blue jeans that aren’t allowed? At my “business casual” place, the people who have to abide by the dress code can wear nice black jeans. Also, leggings are fine if you’re wearing them with a dress, or a tunic just not with a normal shirt. Sandals are allowed, including fancy flip flops but plain beachwear flipflops aren’t.)

      1. Cheesecake 2.0*

        Yeah this is the real issue here! I work in California and we have “California business casual” which is much more casual than other places, I think. Basically no shorts, no flip flops, no spaghetti strap tops, nothing ripped or dirty. Everything else is fine.

    10. Nervous Accountant*

      Our dress code is nothing torn/ripped, dirty or smelly. And no shorts. Aside from that everything goes. We’re a pretty casual bunch. I love that one day you can wear a suit and tie and the next day jeans and sweatshirts. Also most of us don’t c clients dace to face so there’s that.

    11. What's with today, today?*

      Thank you. LuLaRoe somehow took over our small town two years ago, and the leggings are everywhere. I’m on our Chamber of Commerce board, and when I say they are worn for almost every occasion, I am serious.

      Banquet? Wear a loud print pair of leggings! Meeting? Wear a loud print pair of leggings! Interview? Wear a loud print pair of leggings!

      They just won’t go away.

    12. Observer*

      You’ve gotten some good suggestions.

      I very much agree with “includes but not limited to” being included in the policy. Also, make it clear that you get the final say for something that is not 100% It shouldn’t be an issue for most people, but you do see a surprising number of people who either want to “rules lawyer” or genuinely don’t get that just because it is not spelled out in the policy that doesn’t mean you can’t enforce it. Obviously fairness requires that you don’t penalize someone for something that wasn’t spelled out and could be a genuine error. I’m talking about the people who think “They can’t tell me to do X, since it’s not in the policy.”

    13. Symplicite*

      Ours is business casual. However, we’re more specific with table of what is acceptable per gender (make/female ), as well as what is NOT acceptable.

      For example, under the “unacceptable” category, we have:
      Leggings/tights
      Spandex
      All types of shorts
      T shirts with offensive logos
      Tube tops / crop tops
      Backless dresses / halter dresses
      Combat boots / combat wear
      Beach sandals / flip flops
      Athletic /camping / beach / wilderness wear

      At the bottom is… ” All staff are to exercise good judgement. Garments should be in good, clean condition with no rips, tears, or holes.”

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Sometimes the dress code is a practical matter. In my library system, the dress code is mainly “Clothes, please. Clean would be nice.” Open toed shoes aren’t forbidden, but it’s generally not a good idea to drop a volume of the OED or Strong’s Biblical Concordance on your foot when wearing them.

    14. Flinty*

      Ok wait this raises a question for me: are leggings under dresses too casual for the typical business casual environment? I find tights to be uncomfortable and not warm enough, so I usually wear leggings under my dresses/skirts along with boots. Or are you just talking about wearing leggings instead of pants?

      1. turquoisecow*

        I’ve worn leggings under dresses/skirts on days when it’s cold, along with a pair of boots. They’re not loud print leggings, just black, and in fact some of them are only slightly thicker than tights, so I don’t think anyone notices.

        If other people in your workplace are wearing it, it’s probably okay.

      2. Bleeborp*

        Yeah what business casual workplace doesn’t allow tights under dresses? Additionally, why would someone not be able to wear leggings under a dress when they are thicker and provide more coverage than tights? To me tights and leggings under skirts and dresses are usually fine and don’t need to be addressed at all but specifying that clothes not be overly tight and dresses not be overly short would address leggings (or tights!) worn as pants.

      3. Mints*

        I’m pretty sure it’s legging as pants that’s the problem, not leggings as pantyhose

        1. Leggings aren't pants*

          Yes. I wear leggings under dresses in the winter and have never felt underdressed. I see leggings as similar to tights or pantyhose, though. If someone wore one of the three with just a top- no.

      4. Yetanotherjennifer*

        I would say it’s ok if your leggings cannot be distinguished from tights or hose in the way you wear them. So you’re probably fine. I could also picture someone pairing a dress with mid-calf leggings and those I would consider too casual.

    15. Candy*

      My university library’s dress code is pretty short-and-sweet. It simply states: “Please remember that we are often the first point of contact for students, faculty, administrators, and visitors coming into [the Library]. If you can leave your desk and go directly and comfortably to the beach or bar, you might be too casual. Use your judgment and ask if you are unsure.”

    16. dr_silverware*

      I’d actually look for dress code illustrations. My exceedingly casual old job would bump up the campus-wide dresscode to business casual for about two weeks out of every year, and would post info sheets about it in every break room. You might be able to snarf one off of google images, but it was pretty gender neutral.

      IIRC for this brand of business casual it had items like:

      -close-toed shoes

      -clothing fits and is neat

      -long pants, or skirts at or below knee-length

      -shirts must have sleeves

      -non-graphic tshirts are ok

      -no denim

      1. Specialk9*

        Photos are helpful. Someone awhile ago mentioned that their onboarding included slides of people dressed appropriately, and inappropriately for illustration. Be careful of sexism and racism and other -isms, but pictures can be really helpful.

    17. blondie*

      I really don’t understand legging hate (when leggings are worn with long tops). Do you having anything against leggings when paired with a tunic length shirt? It kind of blurs the lines between dresses + tights. There are also a lot of pants that are basically glorified leggings but technically still pants.

      Honestly I wear leggings all the time (with longer shirts and usually some kind of sweater) and I think it looks great! It’s a very flattering look on my body type and not suggestive at all.

      1. Hope*

        Same. I never wear leggings if my butt isn’t otherwise covered by my top. As long as I have a tunic-length top, I think it often looks better than just a dress/skirt with bare legs or a shirt with khakis.

      2. kb*

        I understand that companies and schools just go ahead and say no to leggings because it’s a simpler policy to deal with, but I’ve definitely seen people in legging outfits who look more put-together than people wearing pant-pants. Unfortunately, when one person wears an appropriate leggings look, there’s always someone else who tries and misses the mark.

        1. Leggings aren't pants*

          And this is why dress codes are so hard. I’ve seen people wearing skin tight trousers or pants with hems that drag on the ground, and they look less professional than someone with leggings and a nice tunic. And I hate the challenge of keeping up with fashion. This year’s ‘cold shoulder’ look will be replaced with something bizarre and equally inappropriate next year.

          1. kb*

            I totally feel for you! I can’t say there is a perfect solution, especially for a job that is client-facing so it actually matters.

            I guess my ideal dress code would have a FAQ section that gets into the nitty-gritty of jeans and leggings and other issues you encounter a lot. Maybe include some yes and no pictures? I think sometimes when someone sees that they are allowed to wear leggings, they have a vision in their head of activewear so they go that route. But if you show them leggings paired with business-y tunics and blazers, they better understand the expectation.

          2. Half-Caf Latte*

            I was in the infant section today and they had 12-month cold shoulder outfits, for reasons that shall remain a mystery to me.

    18. Hiring Mgr*

      Guess it depends what industry and/or region you’re in, but these days “business casual” could mean anything (I’m a VP and wear jeans, sneakers, etc. frequently)… if it matters to you what people wear, then you need to spell it out pretty clearly…I wouldn’t worry about it being short or sweet, just clear.

    19. Librarygal30*

      I live in knit jeans, which look like dressier pants, but, they are comfier, not quite like sweats, but close. I always go for the dark wash ones, since they look good with everything. I’m finding my personal dress code works slightly better than my company one. M-Th, I do the nice shirt, scarf, jacket and knit jeans, while on Fridays I go for a more “fun” shirt. I usually wear tennis shoes, or else flats when I’m presenting to a class.

    20. Safetykats*

      So – our dress code also prohibits leggings, and it is a bit of a contentious point. I think your handle perfectly captures why. I understand that leggings aren’t pants. Are they footless tights? Can I wear them that way? (Because I do, and I think there’s nothing wrong with that, and honestly I challenge you to figure out when I’m wearing leggings as tights and when I’m actually wearing tights.) and what about jeggings? And what about yoga pants, including the Beta-brand yoga dress pant (which my sister, a director level at a pretty good sized company, wears fanatically).

      I understand this isn’t helpful, but I’ve honestly never worked with a dress code that wasn’t pretty flawed. As a result, I’ve never really worked with a dress code that was well-enforced. I would recommend trying to keep it straightforward, and limited to the things you really can’t tolerate. And think about it, for heaven’s sake. Because if you’re trying to tell me I really can’t wear leggings as tights, under a dress or tunic, while Becky down the hall has to use a coat hanger to zip her pants, I do want to know why.

  19. Jess R.*

    A couple weeks ago, at the suggestion of my supervisor, I applied for an open team lead position in my department (one step up from my current role). I had an interview on Monday, where I found out that they’d already filled that particular team lead role but were looking for another team lead, still in the same department but working a different shift.

    I work 7a-3:30p right now, and the position (I thought) I was applying for is a 6a-2:30p shift, which would be fabulous. The one they interviewed me for — and, the very next day, offered to me!! — is a 9a-5:30p shift. I had to turn it down. There is so much of my life and my ability to be a functional human being that relies on having time and sunlight after work, and I can’t sacrifice my health and self for this promotion. I’m super bummed, though.

    Not seeking advice — I’ve made my decision — just commiseration and similar stories, if you’re so inclined.

    1. Reba*

      Hey, you got an offer! That’s great. Sorry it turned out to be So Close and Yet So Far from what you need.

      I’m really not a morning person these days, but I do remember fondly how in high school we got out at 2:20 — we started absurdly early for teens, but feeling like there’s still a whole day left after school was great.

    2. RemoteDreams*

      I’m annoyed for you that you didn’t get the priority for that shift! Is it possible that in the future, they’ll be sure to prioritize you for that? I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t think you’d care that much, but now they’ll know and keep you in mind next time!

      But I really admire that you put your self ahead of a promotion – a lot of people would be tempted to do it anyway.

    3. Bostonian*

      I’ve seen plenty of people in my last job take an opposite shift for more money, and then be absolutely miserable. They usually try to switch back within a year or two. Kudos for knowing what works for you and what doesn’t.

    5. Espeon*

      How disappointing and frustrating for you! I have a 4:30pm finish and it still feels late and such a waste of my day – a 2:30pm finish sounds so good. Later hours are one of the reasons I turned down a promotion in January – my time is more precious than money.

      1. Q*

        I also get out of work at 4:30pm, and by the time I commute 30 minutes home, everything is closed. Doctor’s, dentist, bank….

        I’m not a morning person at all, but I make the earlier hours work because I want to have time for myself after work.

  20. Marina*

    Is there any way to fit in better socially at work? I feel left out, but don’t know what to do?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Feel left out how?

      I’m quiet by nature and am not married have no kids. Almost everybody in my office is the opposite. It took a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time for me to feel included. But I found that by connecting with people one on one (I love animals and all things pet related, so as soon as I found out someone has a pet, I start asking questions) lead to me feeling more included in the bigger groups.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        That’s a good strategy to take! I love animals too, and most people around here do as well. One woman even sneaks in her poodle puppy, which none of us mind. :)

      2. Ambpersand*

        This. As an introvert, it can be really hard! But I’ve found that it’s really easy just to ask people about themselves! People love to talk about their own stuff. Start off by asking how their weekend was (or if they have big plans for the weekend), and they’ll usually respond really well. Then you can use that as your in to figure out if they have hobbies/interests/traits that you can bond over. Oh, Fergus is going camping this weekend? Respond with your own anecdote about your experience and expand the conversation. Sally is taking her dog to the dog park? Ask her questions or tell her about your own pets. Wakeen is taking his family to the local festival? Ask him for tips about what’s good to do there, or tell him about your experience when you went (if you did).

        This will help you learn more about your coworkers and vice versa. They’ll also ask you the same questions in return, and keep the conversation going! Take advantage of the opportunities as you see them- in time that will help and you’ll definitely feel more included socially.

        1. Thlayli*

          This. My go-to is “do anything nice at the weekend” (mon-tue) / “doing anything nice at the weekend”? Then LISTEN to the answer. If gives the other person the choice of exactly what and how much they want to share and people LOVE talking about themselves/their kids/ lives/ dogs/ hobbies.

          Plus you then have something to talk to them about next time you see them “so how did the concert go?” Or whatever.

      3. someone else was using the same name*

        I agree this is a great suggestion. My very quiet coworker and I bonded over running, and we often talk about it. It’s to connect one-on-one like that.

        1. K.*

          I became friends with a former coworker because we both used to work out in the gym a few blocks from the office after work, which eventually led to “hey, are you going to work out? Want to walk over together?” to grabbing drinks or dinner after the workout. It evolved organically over a common interest.

      1. Specialk9*

        Be the person who organizes group outings. Pay attention to the mix – if you really want to talk to this person about a topic (eg kids, pets, kayaking, DND) but it would exclude others, schedule 1:1 or look to others with a similar interest. Be the person who organizes the monthly lunch. Try to assume that people are open to coffee with you, but that you may have to schedule it every time, and just do it – put it on their calendar.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think it depends on how you feel like you are being left out. Are people not inviting you to lunch? Or is there some other dynamic going on?

      Sometimes you have to speak up when people are planing something like pizza and be willing to say, “Hey. I’d love to come along next time you… do something.”

    4. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      I totally struggle with this too. One trick that worked well for me was – whenever I learned an interesting fact about someone (or just anything that I could sort of grasp onto – eg: heard one guy had a boat, heard one woman talking about golf), I try to stick that in my pocket to bring up later one-on-one. I really struggle with joining group convos. But I tucked those tidbits away, so when I saw the guy in the kitchen I could say “oh, hey I heard you owned a boat – have you been out at all this season?” or even when just walking through the office they seemed to have a moment to chat.

    5. kb*

      Bring some donuts to work on Monday and keep them at your desk. Email your team to let them know that they can swing by to grab one. When they come by, ask about their weekend. Show interest and remember what they say. People really like people who like and are interested in them!

    6. Poppy Weasel*

      It’s tough. I work with someone now who’s just not fitting in. This person came on way too strong way too fast. They did not take time to read the room. And now they’ve been here for a few months, and they’ve had time to read the room but they still don’t. They continue doing and saying weird things that make everyone else just sort of back away. If this person had come in and been quiet for a few weeks, got a handle on what we’re like and sloooowly eased into their big personality, I think they wouldn’t be as isolated as they currently are.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh yeah, this comment is gold. It took me decades to learn to come in quietly and ease in. I always thought I had to impress people and make them like me (I’m funny! Smart! Worldly!) but usually people just want people who are interested in them, and a slow approach.

  21. Non-profit Interview*

    I’m having my first interview at a non-profit next week for a job that will be a bit of a step up for me. Any non-profit specific things I need to know for interviewing? I’m not new to the work world, just new to non-profits.

    2. mc*

      To me, the two big things about the nonprofits I’ve worked for are: 1. everyone wears a lot of hats. I’ve found this to be true in tiny nonprofits as well as bigger ones (though perhaps to varying degrees). Whenever we interviewed people who didn’t want to do anything explicitly written in the JD , I think that tended to be a red flag. 2. I think most non profit employees care a lot about the mission of the organization. Being able to speak to that is important. Good luck!

    3. Sunflower*

      1. When they ask “Why do you want this job?” make sure to specifically discuss why you feel connected to or passionate about their mission. A lot of interviewees will talk about why they find the actual job responsibilities interesting, or will simply say that they care a lot about the mission.
      2. I’ve worked in smaller, local nonprofits so a big focus is whether someone is willing to do every job under the sun in addition to their own. Can you answer the phones, cook kids dinner, prep notes for the board meeting, AND do your job of raising $1.5M all with a smile, can-do attitude? Yes? Great, welcome aboard!

      Good luck!

      1. Flinty*

        I think how much passion for the mission matters also depends on the job and field. When I worked in children’s literacy, there were a lot of applicants who got all starry-eyed about helping the kids and wanted to get their foot in the door with us, but weren’t really that passionate about the specific job. In that instance, we WANTED to hear about how someone was super excited about being an admin or whatever.

        On the other hand, when I worked in hospice, passion for the mission was pretty important because you had to be ok with hearing about people dying literally every day, no matter what function you work in.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Three big pieces of advice:

      * Use the right language — for example, “organization,” not “company” and in most cases, “donors” and/or “constituents” not “customers.”

      * Understand that there’s a different bottom line. In business, the bottom line is financial. In nonprofits, the bottom line is about impact (what impact are they having in the world?).

      * Don’t buy into stereotypes about nonprofits. Some are more laid-back, but many are rigorous and demanding with clear role descriptions and performance metrics (increasingly so, in fact).

      More advice here:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/11/how-to-get-hired-for-a-nonprofit-job.html

    5. Tea, please*

      Check out the organization’s 990 on GuideStar even if the position isn’t finance related.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        The 990 form is a tax document that gives you a bunch of useful information about a nonprofit.

        Two key pieces that are included are the organization’s budget (including their revenue and spending) and the salaries of the five highest-paid employees (over $50,000).

        The budget is key because you’ll want to see that they are financially stable. The salary piece is super helpful to level set, even if you’re applying for a junior role. If the Executive Director is making $70,000, you’re not going to get paid $50,000 for an entry-level role (e.g.)

    6. Anonygrouse*

      +1 on expressing your connection to/interest in their mission. Even if the job is more of a support function (say, IT and not service delivery), you can talk about how doing that work well better equips the org to to achieve its mission.

    7. StarHunter*

      As others commented, definitely bring your enthusiasm and knowledge about the org’s mission. I went from for profit to nonprofit and what helped was I worked for a start-up for many years wearing many, many hats and those skills were absolutely transferable to a nonprofit (especially since it is a smaller nonprofit). (I also had the added benefit of volunteering at the org at the chapter level for a couple of years.) This website also has some good information about transferring skills from for to nonprofit work.
      https://www.bridgespan.org/insights/library/transition-to-the-nonprofit-sector/transitioning-to-nonprofit-sector-resource-center
      Good luck! I enjoyed my nonprofit career (retiring shortly). It was a good feeling getting up in the morning feeling like you were making a difference.

    8. MuseumChick*

      Co-signing show passion for the mission and using the right language/jargon.

      Have specific examples ready of when you have had to juggle a lot of projects at one ideal that are vastly different from each other (as mentioned, in non-profits its very common to have to wear a lot of different hats.)

      Also, have examples ready of direct contact you’ve had with clients/customers/donors times you were able to de-escalate when they were unhappy and times where you were unable to make them happy. The key here is to show that you did everything (within reason and a hair or two beyond) to resolve the problem.

    9. Flinty*

      +1 to everything above, and I think be prepared to talk in fairly specific terms about why you are interested in switching to the nonprofit world. I love working in nonprofits, but there are definitely a lot of downsides, and if I were interviewing you, I would want to know 1. that you are clear eyed about entering this world and 2. you have some good reasons for wanting this position that will keep you around when things get tough.

    10. Non-profit Interview*

      Thanks everyone for the advice! I’m actually excited about the many hats aspect. I’m a person who wants to be in a role where I stay incredibly busy so a place where I would be welcome to step in and help if I’m caught up on my main job is ideal. The mission is really great and has a huge impact on my local community so I know I’ll be able to speak to that.

  22. Nervous Accountant*

    There’s a new guy. He just started 2 weeks ago and is already asking for a performance evaluation (he asked my mgr, not me). I was tasked w training him for a week until he was up to speed.

    So, far he’s good. Seems like he knows what he’s doing and has a nice personality. but oh my god the interruptions. I feel like saying buddy you started at the worst possible time.

    It’s more me than him I guess–I just really find it super hard to concentrate with so many distractions–emails popping up, calls coming in, people coming up to me, my mgr asking me to do stuff. NG questions aren’t hard, but they’re not questions I could tell him to google either. it’s like….buddy PLEASE I NEED TO CONCENTRATE. I put my headphones on and they’re absolutely useless bc he will try to get my attn to answer him. Yesterday I kept saying I’m sorry I have to concentrate and work on this and turned back to my work, and he was like oh its just a quick 2 second question. It’s not that it’s a hard question…its just the interruptions I’m getting super annoyed at. He’s an otherwise nice guy and I’m otherwise nice to him but there are times I need to sit and concentrate.

    1. Havarti*

      Is he writing stuff down when you answer his questions? Hopefully yes. Maybe build small blocks of time to do certain tasks and if he interrupts, he needs to wait like 10 minutes until you finish the thing and then you will answer his question. In the meantime, he can review his notes and see if he can answer his own question.

      1. Snark*

        Yes, good point. And I’d request that he also do some of his own legwork to get to an answer, and let you know what steps he’s already taken when he asks you.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          That’s a good idea but they’re not like process questions aka (“how do I access this folder? how do I treat this tax document?”) that he could write down but more like…. “so how do I prioritize my time? or “A client sent this in and I investigated and it looks weird, what are your thoughts?”

          Sometimes he’s on the phone wiht a client and they have a question and he puts them on hold to ask me.

          During off season….I’d be more patient. but right now, I have enough hands full with clients and tax returns.

          1. Snark*

            Oh god. I think the “how do I prioritize my time” questions need to just get nipped in the bud. You can’t answer that for him, and he’s a big boy.

            The “what are your thoughts” questions seem relevant, but they also don’t seem like things to come rushing to you with. That can wait for your morning and afternoon Q&A sessions.

            And hell no on the questions while the client is on hold. He’s a professional, and he can handle an answer or he can say, “let me get back to you on that.”

          3. Kelly White*

            Honestly, those don’t sound outrageous for someone that’s been on the job for two weeks.

            YMMV- Maybe he’s phrasing it weirdly, but trying to learn the way to prioritize in a new job can be tricky. I’ve been at my job for over 5 years, and I still have days that I ask my manager what he wants me to work on first. Nothing is worse than spending all morning working on a job only to find out the manufacturing part didn’t get done, and now that’s on hold, but the plant really needs the job I didn’t work on.

            and honestly, two weeks in, I wouldn’t send something that looked weird to a customer without running it by someone first.

    2. Snark*

      Okay, so, no, he does not need and should not get a performance evaluation two weeks in. You can verbally reassure him he’s doing fine, but ffs, dude, have some chill.

      Also, I think it is 100% okay to be firm with him about the interruptions. “Whether they’re two seconds or two hours, you’re interrupting me too frequently and it’s wrecking my focus. Please write then down, or collect them in an email, and I’ll make time every two hours to work through your questions. But when I’m working or have my headphones on, do not come and try to get my attention, because I’m balancing your needs with others.”

      On your side, I think devoting some set times during this training period – like, make them calendar appointments – for training is a good idea, and try to preempt some of his questions.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Ok thank you I said that to my mgr that NO he does not need an evaluation. Chill tf out.

        One of his Qs yesterday was “so i need guidance on how to balance my workload”. I’m just like……

        …….…….

          1. Boredatwork*

            probably, sounds like OP has a college grad who’s starting during busy season. Poor kids probably drowning, not OP’s fault or problem. It’s a steep learning curve.

        3. Boredatwork*

          I feel like when new hires do this it’s code for “can I leave at 5?” dude, it’s busy season, enjoy your paid for dinner and get back to work.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Oh not with this guy, he was doing 45-50 hours his first week even though we told him he didn’t have to (staying late and coming on weekend). I def won’t say he’s a slacker (like cough cough). Just a little odd that he asked for an evaluation

            2. Boredatwork*

              That’s great! I’m glad he has a solid work ethic. He probably just needs validation he’s not an idiot and is on the right path.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      Can you tell him something like “I really need to concentrate right now but I’ll be available to answer your questions at 1:30. Can you make a note of your questions and come back at 1:30?”

      1. Tardigrade*

        I think this is a good tactic. You could also try to tell him you’ve got 9-11 blocked off to work on X and you will not be available to him. At all. The end. But 1:30, New Guy, come on down!!!

    4. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Can you schedule check-ins at an interval that makes sense (daily, weekly, Tuesdays and Fridays, etc) and ask him to bring those questions then?

      Is this his first professional job? He may not realize that a 2 second question isn’t a good reason to ignore someone’s request to let them concentrate, and it puts off the vibe that he thinks his work takes priority over everyone else’s. If he’s a halfway decent person this should get through to him.

    5. Boredatwork*

      LOL – new hires. They’re SO cute. It’s extremely annoying that he’s not taking no for an answer. Next time he ignores your obvious ques, ask him if he’s completely stuck and can’t work on anything else, or if this is critical to what he’s doing. If he waffles even for a second, follow up swiftly with “I’ll come find you when I have a moment”. Headphones in, back to computer, ignore him. If he has the balls to approach you before you come find him, repeat the “I’ll find you”.

      As for the constant emails – Make a rule in outlook for him. Have all his communication directed to a folder. When he says “did you get my email” point to the unread messages, ask about critical tasks, say you’ll respond when you have time. Repeat.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        LOL… I’m trying to be nice bc 1. I remember being new and annoying. And 2. It’s my job! My manager needs me to help train new hires. The last one went pear shaped (slacker coworker I’ve mentioned before)… so “bad hires” reflect badly on our team ugh.

        1. Boredatwork*

          I mean, there’s a good chance he doesn’t have any clue where to start. That’s why I suggested the language about “critical” information, like we’re missing client data for X or I don’t know where to find PY workpaper Y. If he’s having trouble managing is work, you could just point on his assignment list and say do that, it should take you 2-3 hours. I find time limit to be very helpful (also your client codes will thank you).

          Also, the performance review he wants is probably more of a thumbs up or down. I’m sure he’s very anxious he’s an idiot and doing everything wrong.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Say no nicely. I think you are equating “nice” with “give him answers.” Think of it as teaching him to respect other people’s boundaries.

    6. MissCPA*

      I can sympathize completely. I have been tasked with training every single new hire for the past four years here. I CAN’T WAIT TO GET OUT!!! An old audit staff told me once, that sometimes you need to have a conversation with the new hire where you basically say ” Hey look, this is just like mother bird kicking baby bird out of the nest and hoping for the best. Someone will review your work, and if there are things to be addressed they will find them and discuss them with you at that time. Until then, please try your best, make lists of questions and ask me all of them at a time convenient for ME, and listen to the feedback that will be provided to you.”

    7. Nervous Accountant*

      Thanks guys for the feedback. I asked my mgr if he got back to him about it and he said he’d talk to him after the deadline. He told me that he was about to push back on it but didn’t.

      The guy knows his stuff and he’s good when talking to clients, it’s just this thing.. I don’t want to scare him off but it’s just so much an odd request.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Do you tell him he is doing okay so far? Trying looking at it from his chair. You are busy and cannot help sometimes. Everyone else is pretty busy too. He’s been at the job for two weeks and is wondering if he is going to last at the job.

        I think your boss could have assigned two people to train so he could go between the two of you.

        Sometimes people ask for an eval because they feel they do not have enough feedback on how they are doing so far.

  23. LO*

    Feeling very down about my job searching situation this week.

    I’ve been waiting on a very well paid temp job to start. I interviewed at the end of February due to start early March. I’ve gotten no word from my temp agency with a start date despite numerous check ins.

    Another job that I interviewed for this week hasn’t called me back either and I thought I did well in the interview. I am flat broke and only getting broker the longer this goes on and am very very tired of this situation and wish with all my heart I could just get a job already so this madness can end.

    *end rant*

    2. someone else was using the same name*

      I’m so sorry. That sounds incredibly frustrating. For what it worth, I believe in you and believe you will find something great.

    4. Lalaith*

      I am right there with you. Been out of work for 7.5 months now and it’s extremely disheartening. I just want to get back to normal.

  24. beanie beans*

    Another question relating to interacting with people you’ve interviewed with:

    This week I got invited to participate in a panel at a conference and one of the other panelist interviewed me for a job about a year ago. The interview was fine and I don’t have any hard feelings about not getting the job – I think it was clear I wouldn’t be the most qualified, but I’m still nervous it will be awkward.

    Will he remember me? Is there a chance he WOULDN’T remember me? If we go through introductions is it ok to just say “Hi Fergus, nice to see you again.” or is that too presumptuous to assume he remembers me? Or too awkward saying “again?”

    Argh the awkardness!

    1. AyBeeCee*

      Maybe you could follow it up with “Hi Fergus, nice to see you again. I hope the person you hired for the teapots job is working out. How have you been?” Immediately changing to asking how he’s been should avoid any appearance that you’re fishing for the job you missed out on last year but still gives him the context of where you’ve met before.

      Alternately: “Hi Fergus, nice to see you again after the interview for the teapots job last year. How have you been?”

      1. beanie beans*

        To me that feels like I’d be passive aggressively sounding bitter about not getting it. I like the bit about changing to asking how they’ve been and the wording of the second one – I think I can use that! Thanks!

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          I feel the same way, I would wonder if the person was trying to find out more information about the position they didn’t get.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “Hi Fergus, we’ve met before! You may not remember me; I interviewed for the llama wrangler position last year. It’s nice to you again.” It would be awkward NOT to acknowledge it. As with most situations, smile, be breezy, don’t be embarrassed.

      For what it’s worth, my mother has a lovely friend who almost always re-introduces herself every time I see her (which, these days, is once every five years). It’s always, “Hi AvonLady! [Mom’s Friend]. It’s so good to see you!” She’s an attorney and I have a feeling this happens to her a lot.

  25. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Feeling very depressed at the moment…found out today I didn’t get the job I’d felt really sure about. I know there are plenty of other fish in the sea and there were a few reasons this probably wouldn’t have been a perfect fit, but it still stings. I already wasn’t feeling good enough, and this doesn’t help.

    Who has an amusing story to cheer me up?

    1. Lumen*

      I have a friend who is a physician who mostly works with adults, but on occasion has been called in to consult with pediatrics. He told me about a three year old who clearly had been very anxious about seeing a doctor, so he took it really slow and talked to the kid about what he was doing. And this kid was sort of directing the examination, pointing to places he thought the doctor should check (like his tummy, even though that had nothing to do with the exam) and saying “It not scary. It doesn’t hurt!” over and over, very bravely. Thinking about that always makes me chuckle.

      Or the time a 1 year old kept grabbing at his name badge, so he finally gave it to her and she (like any one year old) stuck it in her mouth. But because it was wide and flat, it stretched her mouth out into this big, flat smile. She was thrilled to have finally gotten her prize, though.

    2. RemoteDreams*

      I’m currently dealing with a squirrel attack on my bird feeders…As much as they drive me crazy, I’ll admit that it’s almost balanced out by watching them freak out and fall when I slam on the windows (they’re not hurt at all). I also enjoyed watching them slip off my bird feeders when they were covered in ice!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I have the same problem! The squirrels don’t really bother me (since they are just as much entertainment for my cats as the birds are) but my partner HATES them. I secretly like it when they show up on the weekend so I can watch my partner having an irrational feud with the squirrels :D

        1. RemoteDreams*

          It isn’t irrational, they scare the birds away! >:( but really :P

          Currently I’ve been moving all the bird feeders up, and that seems to have helped… apparently another solution is to put cayenne pepper on everything, so that will be my next step once I find some in bulk!

          If I actually snag a remote job, I’m gonna have soooo many bird feeders in front of my office window!

          1. amy l*

            You can try putting olive or vegetable oil on the poles holding the feeder. If it’s metal. It won’t hurt the animals, and squirrels can’t climb until they work off all the oil. It can be amusing to watch, and with mine, enough seed gets knocked to the ground in the process for a squirrel snack.

            1. RemoteDreams*

              Ooo, this sounds like the most entertaining option. Only one of them is on a pole, but I am going to try this!

          2. Specialk9*

            I’ve seen cones on the poles so they can’t climb, and trimmed overhead branches.

            What would happen if you had a squirrel feeder near the ground, and a bird feeder up high?

    3. Tardigrade*

      Yesterday I sent an email with the typo “anecdoot” to a coworker and we both laughed at it for about 5 minutes, and I hope you do too.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      So when my youngest was learning knock knock jokes, the punchline ended up being elephant.

      Knock knock?
      Who’s there?
      Boo
      Boo who?
      Elephant!

      I thought this was so cute! One day he told one to my brother, who looked like “elephant? Really” and kid said “it’s silly, but it makes my mummy laugh.”

      2. nep*

        Next time a kid goes to tell you a knock knock joke, try this:
        ‘Knock knock’
        ‘Come in’
        Sometimes the look on the face is priceless.

    5. nep*

      Sorry — that’s a uniquely stinging kind of sting.
      Not very amusing but … A couple months back I sent a resume that I later saw had a typo in it. It was for a copy editing job. Yeah.
      The sure way to spot any typos in your cover letter or resume — Hit send. Suddenly they’re fluorescent pink and flashing off the page.
      I normally all these docs away without looking at them again, but I had to look back at this for reference later and spotted the error. Ouch.
      All the best to you. You will land one.

      1. Slartibartfast*

        I swear I am laughing with you, not at you, when I point out the irony of “I normally all these docs away without looking”. My brain runs faster than I can type.

        1. nep*

          LOVE IT. Good reminder to be that much more careful as I proceed with cover letters and resumes this weekend.
          Thanks.

    6. Jemima Bond*

      Here is my new favourite joke to cheer you up:

      Did you know Dickens’ A Tale Of Two Cities was originally serialised in the local newspapers of two British towns?
      It was the Bicester Times, it was the Worcester Times.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        You have to know how to pronounce these, which if you’re from the UK is no trouble: Bicester is “bister” and Worcester is “wusster”.

  26. EmployedSpouse*

    Let me know if this would be better in tomorrows thread.

    Any suggestions on how to be supportive to a spouse who fears losing their job due to a change at the management level a couple rungs up the ladder?

    1. fposte*

      Do you know what your spouse would *like* in the way of support? That’s what really matters. If in doubt, ask.

      I would also say that underlying worries may vary on this, from the financial to the personal; that could be part of the support conversation, too.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that’s not a lot to work with. It may also indicate that they’d prefer to have home be a break from thinking about it, so I’d go strongly with following their lead.

    2. copier queen*

      Be willing to be a sounding board, listen, encourage, etc.
      Perhaps encourage him/her to update their resume, begin to research new opportunities, etc. Also, I’d have a family budget committee meeting to look at finances – amount of money in savings, or what can be sold/reduced to conserve money after a possible job loss, start researching how to roll over 401K into an IRA, etc.
      Cook or pick up their favorite foods, books, etc., and try to make the overall atmosphere of home stress-free, if possible.

    3. RemoteDreams*

      I agree with asking! But other ideas:

      I always feel better when I’m doing something to solve my problems – perhaps spouse would feel better if they begin working on the resume, updating the LinkedIn, applying to some jobs.

      I also agree with a look at the finances – it’s nice to know things will be okay even if the job doesn’t work out, or well, you can start really preparing if it’d be a huge hardship.

      Exercise is proven to essentially help with all mental health stuff, so try to go on walks or jobs or something, too!

      1. EmployedSpouse*

        I encouraged the idea of apply for other jobs and was told that there are no other jobs in our area, other job that was mentioned in another area would require selling our house (which I’m fine with! but I think it’s seen as an Insurmountable Obstacle) among other things.

        Finances are actually really good thankfully, but before we were together there was a “eat or pay bills” phase that has caused some lingering PTSD so all my logical explaining of how we’re okay on money doesn’t help fight the emotional side of things.

        If this were a temporary thing or had some sort of fixed end date I think it would help, but the situation we’re in is basically what we’re stuck with for the foreseeable future so it’s rough.

        1. Jules the Third*

          Make a plan for just you of ‘what it would take to make the house sell-ready’, and see if you can distract spouse with those projects.
          Do something small-scale nice and distracting, like tix to a fave movie
          Say, ‘I support whatever decisions you make, and am open to sympathizing or strategizing, whichever you want.’

        2. Not So NewReader*

          My husband got a week off no pay for a minor transgression that he probably was not involved in.
          I told him, “It’s okay.” And I pointed out how he was VERY employable.

          In another example a friend told a story about getting fired from a job. He was home early so his wife knew something was up. He said, “After I told her I was fired, she came over and hugged me and said, ‘We will be okay.’ ” At that moment, I could see how awed he was by his wife’s actions.

          There is something about the phrase, “it will be okay” that can calm people even when they are extremely upset. What is important here is not to say too much after saying “it will be okay”. Just as the mind can run amok with all kinds of irrelevant junk, the mind will also latch on to a consoling phrase. People fill in the gaps themselves of how it will be okay, you don’t have to explain it that well.

          I am thinking this might work well with your quiet hubby.

        3. Ali G*

          It kind of sounds like he is avoiding dealing with this, which is understandable. I spent a long time in my previous job in denial that it wasn’t going to work out. I echo the other advice you have – and just want to say that the best thing my husband did for me when I was in this situation was to tell me he loved me and wanted me to be happy. And that he was willing to discuss any options that would improve my situation.
          Something to consider – if this is the product of a re-org or layoff – will he be eligible for unemployment? It’s worth having the conversation so he knows his rights if he has to negotiate any severance or another type of separation agreement. That would at least give you some cushion if you guys can’t a plan in place before he loses his job.
          I hope it all works out for you!

  27. Nisie*

    A timeline of my job- I get hired in November, under a 6 month probation. My boss is unaware that I was to start.
    February- My 3 year old is unable to go to preschool due a fever the day before. My husband is out of town, so I have to stay home. I call and email all parties.

    We learn that the board is running a million dollar shortfall and is canceling contracts.

    My boss gets fired. We learn about it from the board’s minutes.

    This week- My husband breaks his foot in 4 places around midnight Monday, so I have to take him to the ER, and he’s admitted due to the unusual amount of swelling and his need for surgery. I call and email out Monday as I expected him to have surgery. Tuesday, I return to work but he has surgery at 6 pm. I work the whole day. Wednesday I get warned that if I run out of leave, I’m fired so my father who had come to town to help us out gets him settled.

    Yesterday- My probation is ended. No reason is given.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Sorry – confused…does “probation” ended mean you are out of a job or that you are done with “probation” and are now a regular employee. Given the tenor of your post, i am assuming the former, but just wanted to clarify.

      Aww…I am sorry! That sounds like a very disorganized and not-good-place to work and a frustrating situation to be in.

    2. NaoNao*

      I’m not sure I 100% follow this.
      What are the consequences for being on/off probation? Is this a good or bad thing?
      Mid-March is almost 6 months, so perhaps they decided the work is strong enough that they no longer need the formal probation? Perhaps it has something to do with the boss being fired?
      Does the fact that the boss didn’t know you were due to start have something to do with probation?
      A bit lost here!

      To me, all these things are unrelated. Your boss not being aware, the shortfall, the boss being fired, the warning about leave/PTO, and the short probation period. I sense that either there’s some missing pieces we’re not being told OR you’re weaving this into a narrative in some way that’s just not actually true.

      The one thing I do take from this is the communication at this company is not great.
      The boss wasn’t aware of your start date.
      You were not told your boss was fired.
      A million dollar shortfall happened with little warning.
      You were told *after* you used two days of leave that you will be fired if you run out (? I don’t really understand that, but…eh, I guess that’s their prerogative)
      You were taken off probation (fired?) and no reason given.

      The story I see is “communication at this company is abysmal”. Try to get things in writing, schedule check in’s frequently with whoever is your current boss, takes notes and send out meeting notes, and so on. And also maybe it’s time to start looking for another job.

      1. Nisie*

        I’m sorry- I’m pretty upset after being fired.

        I’m trying to figure out why since I wasn’t given a reason. I think it’s the use of leave that was the issue or I was let go after they started cleaning house. The probation was a standard thing at the place I worked.

        1. NaoNao*

          Ah, okay, so the end of probation means “fired”. Well, my guess is it actually has to do with the client loss, and the firing of your boss!
          If you were hired to support a specific person, project, or client and that person isn’t around anymore, it’s likely that the position itself, not you personally, is no longer needed.
          But honestly, from what was written, it seems like this company has a lot of, at best, “loose ends” and not great communication.

          1. Nisie*

            Thank you. I went from a job I kept for 8 years to this one, which I couldn’t keep 5 months. I’m trying to figure out what to learn from it for the next one.

            And to shut up the inner critic who is telling me how much I sucked.

            1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

              Org changes, not your leave. If your boss got fired and they’re massively in the red, it totally makes sense. This isn’t on you.

            2. Caro in the UK*

              I think it would be really helpful to reframe the way you’re thinking about this. It wasn’t that you couldn’t keep the job, the business’ needs changed and they could no longer keep your role.

              From what you’ve written, I’m not 100% sure that there’s anything you could have done differently, because it really wasn’t your fault. I’m really sorry you’re going through this, I hope you find something better soon.

              1. Jules the Third*

                +1

                When companies start firing, the last hired are usually first fired. You got caught in their problems.

            3. Observer*

              Maybe you missed some red flags in taking the job. So, if there is anything to learn, this would be where to look.

              But, nothing you say here indicates that you messed up. It quite possibly illegal of your employer to threaten you with firing for using unpaid leave – this stuff sounds exactly what FMLA leave was created for. In any case, nothing you did was unreasonable. On the other hand, your (former) employer sounds like a basket case.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Probably the truth is you were fired because anyone who had been working in your position would have been fired at that point. They have no money to pay you. Being idiots they tried to make it look like it was your fault.

          It’s an unfortunate coincidence that you had to take time off. I don’t think that has much bearing on what happened, though.

          Please be gentle with you. Pretend you are consoling a friend who just lost her job. What would you say to her? Those are the types of things you need to tell yourself. You can analyze this from now until the second Tuesday of next week and still not know the reason. Your best bet it to move yourself forward in what ever ways you can. Personally, I would move forward to a container of coconut milk ice cream and sit there with it until it was gone.

          I am very sorry about your job.

    3. Cats and Dogs*

      After months of being short-staffed, my boss came back from maternity leave this week. I was literally counting down the days the last month and a half. But, here’s the kicker. I’m generally an overly logical person. I understand that she’s been out for 6 months and that it will take time to get back up to speed. I also understand that as a new mother she has responsibilities and needs that work time needs to accommodate.

      We had several meetings this week. There were two that she should have attended to put her face back in front of people and get the latest update. She couldn’t attend either of them for baby-related reasons, so I attended as I’ve been doing. And normally, I wouldn’t care. I wouldn’t mind filling in for her either. But, I’m tired of being in charge without being in charge. And I’m now slightly bitter that I’m being asked to transition my boss back into her position and accommodate her schedule, almost as a favor with a couple of Thank you very muches thrown in. My stipend to run the department ended when she returned. No one has talked with me about WTH my role is now that she’s back (I’m still doing the work I was doing before she was here, nothing has been taken off my plate, aside from a weekly report) and I’m basically walking a tightrope of accommodating everyone but my damn self. And the truly crappy part is that I can’t really advocate aggressively because it’s been a difficult time and it would feel particularly scummy to say, Yo I need to be compensated for the crappy situation we have been in and you need to be nicer to me.

      I don’t know. I feel taken advantage of. It’s not new. It’s happened before. They will probably throw a $1500 bonus at me to shut me up and I’ll be fine until they take advantage of me again.

      1. Cats and Dogs*

        So sorry, this posted in the wrong spot!! But if it helps any… The company sounds pretty shady and it wouldn’t surprise me if they were looking for a reason to end your probation to avoid having to fire you later and paying unemployment. Based on what you’ve described, I don’t think you did anything wrong and if anything needs to be learned, it would be how to avoid a crappy company like this in the future. (Which isn’t a critique, they’re not easy to spot and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over it)

    4. bb-great*

      Honestly, if the board is running a million dollar shortfall and your boss got fired, your job was in jeopardy no matter how much or how little leave time you used. I wouldn’t read into it too much. Sorry the past few months have been so stressful, I hope things look up soon.

    5. Middle School Teacher*

      Oh my, it went from raining to pouring g for you! Sorry you’re dealing with all that.

      1. Nisie*

        Thank you. The more I hear it wasn’t my fault, the easier it is to believe. I applied for 3 jobs today.

  28. Dan Crawford*

    This is partly a vent but also a sanity check.
    I have finally broken free of the terrible defense contractor world and have landed a job in academia that I absolutely love. One of the reasons I wanted to leave was that I was weary of all of the cyclical re-compete drama that comes up every 3 years. The contract I used to be on is now up for bid – and I’ve been contacted by two companies to help them write their proposals. One of the people who contacted me provided a glowing reference for this job. I honestly want nothing to do with any of this but feel guilty about not helping him after he helped me. What would you do?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Do you have time to help the out? are you hoping to be paid as an external consultant?

    2. AcademicSchacademic*

      Academia has its own dramas of which you will soon find out now that you are on the inside ;) Rank and retention reviews come to mind! As for your dilemma, you can always say that you have zero time for extra commitments due to the responsibilities of your new job and unavoidable family duties.

    3. Agathe_M*

      It might help to remind yourself that professional references aren’t necessarily meant as quid pro quos (and if they are, that’s pretty sketchy). You worked well with him, he was honest about that, that’s awesome. You are not required to help him in return. Especially since you’re in academia now, you don’t need to be (as) concerned about your professional relationship.

      That said, I get the sense of obligation, and the personal/para-professional connection that’s driving the guilt. If you were interested at all, I’d suggest figuring out a contracting rate and hard limits on how much you will do (because, with the best will in the world, “can you help me with X?” tends to spiral). But since you don’t want to be involved at all (which is really okay), I’d go with an honest lie. Something like, “I really enjoyed working with you on [thing last time]. [New position] is going great (and again, thanks for your support) but unfortunately, my current schedule won’t allow me to help with your proposal. I wish you and [firm] all the best.”

      Also, if you know anyone else who might be in a position to help, and who you’d be confident recommending, you could offer to put them in touch.

    4. Meh*

      I’d just give the handy-dandy excuse that you’d *love* to help them, but your current job is just taking up way too much of your time and you wouldn’t be able to give the proposal the love and care that it deserves. If possible, recommend someone who can do a good job if you know anyone and if you know any brief pointers that may help them, send them their way.

    5. Jessi*

      Either offer to help at an outrageous rate make $$$$. Or reach out and say “so sorry would love to help but I am completely swamped with my new job” could offer to pass along any notes or resources that you have

      1. AcademicSchacademic*

        You could also offer them the name of someone still stuck in defense contract land that you think has the skills and experience necessary to do the job?

    6. General Ginger*

      Can you recommend anyone else in the industry? If you’re still pretty new to the academia job, it’s not unreasonable to say your new job requires all of your time right now.

  29. Anon here again*

    I had a phone interview where they said that the pay rate and the distance from the place wouldn’t be worth it. I lived 30 mins away. This is wrong.

    2. RemoteDreams*

      If they can’t pay enough for someone to live 30 minutes away… I mean that’s such a standard commute, it doesn’t make sense at all.

    3. Goya de la Mancha*

      If you strongly feel that way about the position, then add a residency requirement to your job posting – otherwise leave it up to the candidate to make that decision for themselves.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t really think right or wrong plays into the job hunt much. In the end, an employer can decide not to hire you for any reason they like, just as you can decide not to take a job or any reason you like.

      1. Drama Llama*

        Yeah, this.

        At my company most of the staff work weird shifts and the traffic is really bad at times. The staff car park is far away so everyone has to take the shuttle bus. This adds a good 20 minutes to the commute.

        We’ve had employees quit because the commute was too difficult (understandably so). When people apply from the other side of the city they all insist the commute is no big deal. I know it’s not. And frankly I don’t want to take the risk of hiring people who “give it a go” then decide it’s too difficult. So I make the call based on past experience of losing multiple staff due to commuting issues.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I had this happen to me for a job I liked. I don’t know why some people decide this but they do.

  30. LadyIce*

    More of a rant, less of a question. None of my co-workers put me on their team evaluations. I know why, I’m sure I’m seen as more of a peripherial co-worker. I’m the only accountant, and help out each of the other teams about equally, so I probably just don’t pop to mind when people are asked about “teams”.
    It still smarts though, because I do a lot of work for all of them, and it makes me feel unappreciated. I’m certainly not going to raise a fuss with anyone about it, it just sucks.

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      Empathy :(

      Our whole department is like that – so at least we have each other. But we are frequently left out of meetings/emails/fun things/etc that come from other departments or HQ.

  31. CTT*

    In light of today’s letter about moving, does anyone have tips on when to start looking for a place when you’re moving for a job? I’m moving back to my hometown in August to start a new job. Since I know the area I’m really champing at the bit to start looking now (there are so many more interesting new apartments since I moved away!), but is 5 months out way too early?

    1. Murphy*

      Probably a bit, though I’d maybe start researching places you’d potentially be interested in so you could narrow it down, but I’d hold off on contacting them right away. In my area, 60 days notice is standard for tenants, so they may not know about their exact availability until 2 months out.

    2. London Bookworm*

      I think in most places five months is too early to put in an application (unless you’re comfortable paying double rent for a while) but’s it’s ample time to start looking at different postings to get a sense of the rental market, what neighbourhoods would be good to live in, and what you can expect to pay.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      It depends so much on the market where you’re moving! Where I am (large city) it’s hard to find a place earlier than a month (or maybe 1.5 months, if you’re really lucky) beforehand. Generally, if things are posted, the realtor wants to get them rented right away. However, what people in my city in your situation do is put word out to their contacts earlier; sometimes you can find something through a friend or acquaintance that isn’t put on the market at all (e.g. a friend’s friend is moving out of their place right around the time you’re moving in).

    4. SophieChotek*

      5 months seems a little early, but researching is good. that said, if you have connections in hometown (as llama wrangler already wrote) I would reach out to them. They might have suggestions or knowing you’re coming back, they might then think of you if a position that is right, opens up.

    5. RemoteDreams*

      Depends on where you’re from! Are you from a college town? Probably should look now to move in during August. Otherwise, probably only a few months is really necessary, if that. But looking that early might lead to the best place! Some newer/fancy apartment buildings tend to be able to do stuff more in advance, in my experience.

    6. Librarygal30*

      Start researching now, and have an idea of where you want to be. If you want to be all settled by August, start contacting places the beginning of June, so you can be moved in by the end of July.

  32. Cancer Crush Anon*

    Ugh, what a week. Search my username for the previous threads on this saga. tl;dr: CEO told me he has a crush on me. Job searching like crazy.

    The CEO called me twice one afternoon. He did not leave a message or send an email, so I’m guessing it wasn’t about work. This makes the 7th time he’s called me (he called me 5 times the one day and then left a message ‘apologizing’). Called HR and she told him to knock it off.

    Boyfriend’s brother, the lawyer, told me when I get a new job I should file a complaint with the state. He said they’d probably read my text messages if I do that. That makes me uneasy. Last thing I want is to face some lawyer going “see???? 10 days after the ‘incident’ she sent raunchy texts to her boyfriend. Clearly she wasn’t that broken up!”.

    His phone calls triggered my anxiety again and I’m debating seeing a therapist. We have an EAP but idk anything about that or whether that is confidential enough. We get 3 therapy appointments for free or something. I’ve been extremely busy with extracurriculars and haven’t had time to take care of myself, but one of my night time engagements just ended so I have my weeknights free again. This week has been hard, I’ve been flip flopping between freaking out and being calm all week.

    My motivation is in the toilet. We got our bonus paperwork and my boss dinged me on something she feels I dropped the ball on. My lawyer was shocked that she dinged me. I’m feeling very numb and apathetic

    Speaking of, we get bonuses next week, so after that I can put my two weeks in without any worry. I found out that the recruiter I had been working with quit, so I had to start from square one with a new recruiter. She doesn’t know my field very well yet and sent me a job that was close but not quite right. She hasn’t contacted me since I turned away the one she sent, so we’ll see.

    The job I interviewed for and haven’t heard back about….still no contact. It’s been almost 3 weeks since my interview and they told me I would hear back later that week. My former coworker who works there says that I was their #1 candidate, the hiring manager told her. But they’re out of town this week so it’s just a waiting game. I sent a follow up email this week just asking for an updated timeline.

    Feeling pretty down and trying to take care of myself but it’s hard. Just want to leave.

    1. Ainomiaka*

      EAPs will not report what you talked about if they’re remotely normal. Professional standards for therapists prohibit it. That doesn’t mean you have to do that, but generally an EAP is an outside company, and your company just gives them money.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Also, the one time I called the EAP, all they did was give me a list of therapists who I could get the free sessions from — then it was on me to contact them, so it would have all been totally confidential on that end.

          1. Ainomiaka*

            My experience was slightly different. My company’s EAP sent contact information and some availability question answers (like do you prefer morning or afternoon appointments) to the therapist’s office and the office called to schedule an appointment.

    2. Starley*

      I’m mo lawyer but I don’t think your texts to your boyfriend unrelated to the situation could be relevant, could they? I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I’ve been following along and the whole thing is just awful.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        Well, they can be if we discussed this incident, which we did…which means that reading our texts would be part of the investigation. It’s just icky. I don’t want my private matters read by someone other than the recipient.

        1. Arjay*

          Most carriers don’t save the content of text messages, just a record that you sent/received a text to/from a particular phone number. You may want to check with your carrier, but generally speaking the only way someone could read your texts is if you or your boyfriend chose to share them.

    3. Kuododi*

      Speaking from the times I have taken EAP contracts, I was always the outside agency and I made clear in my contract with the company that strict rules about client therapist confidence would be upheld. It is possible depending on the company that they might put something in the contract with the therapist requiring the clinician to report to the company if there is threat to company safety. (ie telling the therapist you have concrete plans to bomb the CEO office). ;). Best wishes and keep us posted!!!

  33. Quaggaquagga*

    The ladies in our office got taken out for lunch on account of International Women’s Day. I find that… odd. Anyone else’s workplace pay lipservice to the day?

    1. Trillion*

      Yeah, that would make me uncomfortable. I’d jokingly-not-jokingly ask if the guys can come, too.

    2. Murphy*

      We inexplicably had some chocolate in the break room. (There was a sign, so I know it for that reason.) But I like chocolate, so I can’t really complain.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I hate hate hate how feminism and women’s empowerment have been co-opted! In my opinion, saying something to the effect of “women are better than men/deserve special treatment/etc” are just as damaging and reinforcing of the patriarchy as believing women are lesser than men. Just let me do my damn job, pay me equally, and give me the same opportunities for advancement as anyone else – I don’t need a cookie and a pat on the head!

      1. Quaggaquagga*

        Yesss. I don’t need to be told how strong and smart I am. I know I do a good job, so just give me the according respect, pay, and responsibility. I mean, luckily my work is decent about doing those things, but the special attention makes me so uncomfortable.

      2. Rad Fem*

        Feminism and women’s empowerment have been co-opted by whom?
        How can equal pay, opportunities and respect be achieved without bring attention to the contributions of women, which up until the very recent past have gone unrecognized?

        1. Emi.*

          They’ve been co-opted by corporations who do things like buying women lunch one day a year instead of paying us equally all year round. It’s not a problem with IWD; it’s a problem with capitalism using IWD as window-dressing.

          1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            Exactly! I particularly hate the ad currently playing a million times an hour on Hulu that starts by saying “heroes have no gender” and then immediately says “That’s why we call them SHE-roes!” I think it’s trying to sell paper towels or something. Just, ugh.

        2. Murphy*

          Bringing attention to the contributions of women, or pointing out the inequality gaps that still exist is great, and that’s definitely what IWD is for. But what ends up happening is “Let’s do something nice for the ladies!” and other empty gestures.

      3. Betsy*

        I don’t think anyone at all’s saying that women are better than men or deserve special treatment. I think that’s a bit of a straw man (or should I say straw woman, haha).

    4. [insert witty user name here]*

      No, no acknowledgement at our workplace. Which I am 100% on board with. I think IWD is great, but I think acknowledgements/celebrations of it should be meaningful, not just doing something for the sake of doing something.

    5. Lucky*

      Our CEO sent out a somewhat tone-deaf email yesterday, celebrating the fact that 61% of our manager-level positions are held by women. Tone-deaf because only 15-20% of our directors are women, and 10% of our executives are women.

      1. Havarti*

        Oh dear. Reading this, I got the mental image of a badly-drawn gold star with the words “You tried.”

      2. IWD*

        Our CEO did this exact thing in a company-wide town hall a few months ago! Made a big point of noting that some large percentage of Managers in the company were women, but the reality is that managers are fairly low-mid level in my office, and only a very, very small percentage of Directors, Sr. Directors, and VPs are women. Our C-suite is all men. And we work in the beauty industry, so there is no lack of talented women executives available. Our company is mostly women from Manager level down, and men from Director level up. We did a big celebration yesterday for International Women’s Day.

    6. Oxford Coma*

      I work for a male-dominated company in a very male-dominated industry. The only female manager in my company chose yesterday to announce that she is leaving for a cosmetics company. I asked if she picked IWD to be ironic, and she stared at me blankly. My sense of humor is…bleak.

    8. Emi.*

      No, thank goodness, because I have heard a lot of horror stories and was 100% ready to snap “I don’t want a damn cupcake, I want an end to rape.” And I don’t think that would have gone over well.

    9. HannahS*

      No, but I did go to buy a faculty sweatshirt and discovered that all of the medical school sweatshirts are men’s. Women outnumber men in medical school. And the argument that women can wear men’s sweatshirts but men can’t wear women’s is bull, because the damn things are huge in the shoulders, tight at the bust, and straining over my hips. And about six inches too long in the sleeves. So, yeah, I guess I can technically get in on my body, but a man could technically get a woman’s sweatshirt on his body. I don’t get why they don’t buy women’s cuts/sizes! It’s not like they expire, and the design is unlikely to change for years. And as I said, we outnumber the men.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Has anyone given you the “oh no, they’re not men’s sizes, they’re UNISEX” blarney?

        Listen, people-who-sell-or-otherwise-provide-clothing. Unisex sizes are men’s sizes. Unisex T-shirts are the same cut as men’s T-shirts. Usually they’re provided in a wider range of sizes than men’s shirts, but that’s the only difference. And if you’ve got boobs and hips, they probably don’t fit you.

        I have wayyyy wayyy too many “unisex” shirts that don’t fit me that I’ve gotten from events or whatever. I hate them.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I love them because they fit me much better than women’s sizes. Women’s shirts are too narrow in the shoulders for me unless I buy a size so big I’m swimming in it.

          But they need to have both since they’re not carrying shirts that actually fit.

    10. AeroEngineer*

      Ugh. I got opposite lip service. I am the only female engineer in my department, and geezus, the jokes and comments were extremely distasteful yesterday and even bled over to today. So personally I would have preferred to not have any special day at all so it would have just been a normal day.

      They are trying to hire more female engineers, but honestly, this is a minor reason why I want to leave.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I did see a woman on the bus yesterday with a single rose wrapped in cellophane, and apparently it’s normal in Russia for women to receive flowers on Women’s Day.

          A previous job used to give bouquets of flowers to all the administrative assistants for Secretary’s Day. Whilst it was nice, I couldn’t help but think that it didn’t really make up for the rubblish we had to deal with the rest of the year.

        2. AeroEngineer*

          Yep. Another thing to put in the “remember why you want to look for a new job” pile. I also did my masters here and it was similar (and unlike other countries I have studied and worked), so it is also another thing to put in the “remember why you want to leave this country” list.

          around 6 months to go.

    11. Thlayli*

      My workplace didn’t do anything (thankfully) but i did have a hilarious conversation at lunch with two of my work buddies about how we should celebrate IWD by giving out free vibrators and going home to celebrate having a clitoris.

    12. Jemima Bond*

      At the Ninja Assassins’ Guild, our (female) Director General and three very senior other women gave short talks on Past Present and Future for Female Ninja Assassins then took Q&A and stayed to chat with fizzy water and nibbles. It was pretty good.

    13. Jules the First*

      Oh yes. We got to give up our lunch break for a talk on unconscious bias (which was held in a food-free meeting room and started with a “hug your neighbour” exercise….) and then got “invited” to attend a post-work talk from one of the few leading women in our field at which they served pink cava and cupcakes. In a room decorated with flags. Because hey, it’s international, right?

      All this is particularly galling because it was just last week that they issued the newly mandatory gender diversity report, in which we learned that a mere 17% of our senior management are female, women are paid between 10 and 25% less than the average man in the business, and the average woman’s bonus last year was a third smaller than the average man’s. But all this is a-okay, because the reason women are underpaid is that “we have a lot of male staff who have been with the business for a long time” and “if you look at the lower staff grades, the majority of highest paid people in every band are female.” It’s been a week and I still have no words….

    14. Lalaith*

      I am currently unemployed, but my previous job gave each of the women an orchid and a bar of chocolate a few years ago. I hadn’t even heard of IWD before that, but like Chocolate Teapot said, it seems to be more of a thing in Russia, and my company was primarily Russian. And yeah, giving women stereotypical gifts did strike me as missing the point.

  34. Solo Employees*

    Those of you who are the only person doing your job in your company, how does your company organize you?

    Are you tacked onto the “best match” department they can find? Do you have a dotted-line reporting manager and a distant official manager? Do you report several levels up, since there is no middle management that applies to you?

    I attend long, mandatory meetings for not-really-relevant things, because I’m a llama disciplinarian in a sea of llama trainers. I requested to opt out or attend virtually, but was firmly shut down. It’s a frustrating waste of time, so I’m curious how other companies are organized.

      1. Trillion*

        This is me, too. I thought I’d love it. Turns out is kind of gets to me because I often feel lonely.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          After, oh, a year being stuck in my cube with barely anyone to talk to, I made it my mission to feel more like part of the office. (I’m kind of a liaison between my local office and our HQ….I felt closer to the people I was hundreds of miles away from.)

          For example, I used to get left out of the Department I’m Sort of But Not Really Related To events. One day I just went into my boss’ office and asked, point blank, “I’m considered part of Llama Groomers, yes? Why am I not on the invite for lunch/drinks/ballet twirling?” He had no good answer, so now I’m included. If you’re going to shoehorn me into a department then, well, I’d better darn well be treated like part of that department.

    2. Murphy*

      I was originally hired as the only person doing my job, but reporting to someone who had previously done it. She was a level above me and doing similar work. We were on a “team” technically, though the team was a small mix of people who did different work than us. Long story short, there was some restructuring and my boss made a lateral move to a different position, and I essentially took over both positions. There was an alarmingly long period of time where they didn’t know where to put me in the reporting structure! I had been told that I was doing to report to someone way above me in the structure, and then I was told I was going to report to a new director position that was being created, but that didn’t happen

      My boss is someone else entirely, who is several levels up from me, and I do think it was a “best match” scenario. The bulk of what my boss is responsible for is different from what I do, though he did oversee a few projects I was involved in, which is why I think they ended up putting me there. My boss has two direct reports and the two of us work on completely different things. I work mostly autonomously. In contrast to your attending many meetings, I attend almost no meetings. I’m not really on a “team”, which makes my job pretty isolating sometimes.

    3. Marketing Manager*

      I am the sole marketing employee at my company. I am considered part of the sales department. I report directly to our CEO, who also serves as the Sales Director (we’re a small business). This is a pretty natural fit, though, since I work most closely with the Sales team.

    4. Lady Blerd*

      To stay with the Llama analogy, our department overall specializes in camelids with the focus on llamas but some of us, myself included, groom alpagas, There is some overlap and major différences so that leads to often having to explain that not everything translates but at the same time some things do but because the llamas are the main focus, we alpaga groomeers are often forgotten.

      Anywhoo, my boss, a llama specialist, has no idea how we work so it’s a constant battle and I have to start over because explaining how we work because of the high turnover with the llama specialists. But, there is an upside: I have a very high level of autonomy because my bosses let me run my crew as I see fit (within reason), almost unheard of for someone of my level or for most people in our organization. Downside, we are often forgotten when policies are set for meetings/conférences/présentations where we should be present.

    5. A Teacher*

      Well, I’m the only person that teaches what I do in my district of 14,000 or so students. So at the high school I teach at, I’m in the “Business” department but I don’t teach any business classes like the rest of my peers. They put me there because of federal and state vocational funding that my courses get with my vocational teaching license (I have a standard license too for a few regular courses). My “supervisor” taught biology and has no clue what dual credit is or how it works, he can’t decide what high level vs. low level questioning is, he isn’t sure what high vs. low autonomy is, and because I have a smartboard (and migraines) I don’t have overhead lights on most of the time–I also don’t have traditional seating in my room, think office chairs with tables. and library chairs. With my old supervisor it worked great but with turnover of administration at the high school level, this is my 4 supervisor in 7 years. It is what it is, but its hard when he tries to tell me how he was an inspiring teacher and amazing when he taught (with us as a colleague) when the opposite is quite true. So I put my head down, close my door, do my job and document all the good things that happen.

    6. Rookie Manager*

      I used to attend all HR department meetings as a Volunteer Coordinator. 90% of the agenda was totally irrelevant to me and when we would go round sharing successes/challenges I frequently heard; “great success with a difficult.. um… case this week. But I can’t say anymore just now *pointed look at volunteer team*”. We didn’t want to attend, they didn’t want us there, yet my manager had no backbone so we kept on attending. Then I got a new job.

      1. Arjay*

        I was required to attend a weekly meeting at which my contribution regularly was, “I’m just happy to be here.”

        One time in a year, I had something substantive to talk about and it always freaked everyone out.

    7. SaraV*

      I’m in a “job share” with another employee, but we’re the only ones that do this particular job. It’s hard when you’re looking for a job, and at an interview get the “How well do you work with a team?” question.

      And I directly report to the head manager of our branch…she knows what I do, but probably couldn’t do it herself. I believe the assistant manager of the branch, could, though.

    8. Overeducated needs a new name*

      In the job I’m leaving, I cover one function for six programs, but I report to one of the six program managers instead of the director who manages all of them. I think this is pretty much because my boss was the most insistent that there was a need for my job function, the one who wrote my position description, and the one who volunteered to supervise me; there’s no good organizational logic for it.

    9. RedBlueGreenYellow*

      At my company, I am the only person in my role. There has been much discussion of the need to hire more people who do what I do, but so far, it’s all talk. I am in a specific department, assigned to a specific team, but I report to a different manager than the rest of my team. So let us say that I am the archivist for a team of llama behaviorists. The rest of the team reports to the chief behaviorist, and I report to the head of scheduling.

      I sympathize with the mandatory, non-relevant meetings: I have to do mandatory, non-relevant (company-internal) certifications. Since the company never came up with a set of certifications for an archivist, and I work mostly with behaviorists, I have to do all of the internal training and certification for a senior behaviorist. It is a waste of everybody’s time.

    10. Cloud 9 Sandra*

      My job has elements of llama wrangler but really I work for two VIP llama trainers and help them. The main crap is that llama trainers can give bonuses to their wranglers, but I’m not on either team. So no bonuses for me. (I’ve seen wranglers get over $1000 for bonuses.)

    11. Jules the First*

      Trust me, department changeling is better than split reporting!

      My job function sits equally uncomfortably between two departments, so I have either reported to the board as a whole (scary when they don’t understand what you do) or to two individuals of equal rank. It got particularly fun there for a while when my two bosses couldn’t stand one another…

      Currently I’m officially part of one team (and that manager, Jane, handles my time sheets and holidays and hiring and budgets and performance reviews) but a different manager, Felix, does my one on ones and runs interference with other departments for me…and I also have dotted line relationships with both Jane and Felix’s bosses, leading to such delightful conundrums as Jane trying to get a raise for one of my team late last year and was told no, but I had a word earlier this week with my unofficial grand boss (Felix’s boss) and voila, raise approved.

    12. Scubacat*

      My program has one employee (me).
      The program has its own payroll code. I’m THE only person who uses it. My supervisor signs the timesheet, but otherwise doesn’t know what I do on a day to day basis. There’s another distant supervisor at another organization that actually holds my contract. I attend the monthly company meeting, but otherwise am not glommed onto any other category.

  35. Little Bean*

    Poll: what industry are you in, and how likely is your company to hire humanities majors like english, philosophy, art history, etc.? Or does major not matter, and it’s more based on work experience?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Investment industry, and I’m a religious studies major. Here’s a secret: once you’ve been out of college for a few years, your work history is 5000% more important than your exact degree.

      1. selina kyle*

        How did you get started in that field? (I graduated a couple years ago with a classics degree – religious studies weird cousin – and I’m interested in branching out career wise so I’m very interested in the topic)

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          My path basically went

          Graduate in 2008 when the whole economy went down the toilet > Get a call center job in a financial sector (credit card processing) on the strength of being bilingual > move from call center to dispute processing, get used to working with dense regulatory language, comfortable keying large financial transactions, etc > get recruited to take licensing exams and get registered representative/investment advisor licenses.

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              You’re welcome!

              I’ll add, if anyone is interested in the investing world — what you majored in is much less important than the ability to pass the exams. My firm is on a major hiring push right now and the pass rate on the Series 66 is pretty dismal.

    2. Just Peachy*

      I worked for a janitorial/machinery supply company that makes its own products. We have hundreds of different positions at our company, from chemists, to machine specialists, to sales reps, to customer service, to warehouse laborers.

      Major doesn’t usually matter (for most positions), but I also wouldn’t say it’s based on just work experience. I was at a training workshop at our corporate office a few weeks ago, and we all went around and talked about our background briefly. My major is was finance, but two other people who do my job (sales support team) at other branches, majored is mass comm, and music, respectively. They were both young (>25) and neither had any prior work experience.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I work for a company that makes bakeware and decorating products. I’m sure there are tons of humanities majors among us.

    4. Little Bean*

      Thanks for the replies! For context, I was a History major and have never had trouble finding a job, but I know that major really doesn’t matter in my field (higher education administration). Now I work with college students and they’re so anxious about choosing the right major and they all think that humanities majors are at a disadvantage compared to other majors because of all the mainstream news articles basically saying so. This has never been my personal experience at all but I just wanted to see what people in other fields would say.

      1. ANon.*

        I mean, it depends somewhat on the field they’re trying to enter.

        If they’re trying to get into a PhD program for physics and they major in history, then yeah, it will be pretty tough.

        But generally speaking I haven’t heard of anyone who has felt disadvantaged because of their humanities major.

      3. PM extraordinaire*

        English major (literature concentration) in the oil and gas industry. I started out as a receptionist and worked my way up pretty quickly.

    5. Going more anonymous*

      I’m in Research Development at a university, and major does not matter at all here.

    7. Natalie*

      I started in commercial real estate, and practically all of my colleagues had liberal arts degrees – English, history (me), women’s studies, etc. There were only a couple of people with business majors and honestly, you couldn’t tell one bit.

    8. ANon.*

      I work in HR, and my English major helped me get my current position (strong communication skills, particularly in writing).

      It may be important for your first job or two after college, but, as others have said, your work experience will quickly take priority.

    9. jenniferthebillionth*

      IT. Theater major, then library science with a bent toward children’s lit. Work history has been more important than education!

    10. NaoNao*

      I’m in a mega-corp telecom. We hire all backgrounds and majors. More specifically, I’m in Learning and Development. We prefer HR, Adult Learning, Education, or similar, but I’m an English Lit major with a minor in Linguistics. The minor helped me transition from low level retail work to a call center to a Communications and Culture Expert overseas in a call center, and then on to Instructional Design, where I am now. ID has a very, very wide array of majors. Many come from military/engineering/defense contract backgrounds, just as many come from the retail management to Education Major to AVP of Learning route. Also come from call center team lead to trainer to training manger to ID and so on.

    11. LBG*

      I did pharmaceutical sales out of college (ages ago, so it may be different). Had a degree in bio and had worked at a hospital pharmacy to pay for college. Others were former teachers, business majors, anything, really. My current industry requires a J.D., however.

    12. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      I’m in informal science education. Almost everyone has STEM degrees, but we definitely like arts people who have STEM experience (I have a handful of coworkers who have theater, studio art, or art history degrees).

      1. kmb*

        I’m also in informal science education! And in content, like I imagine you are, vs admin or business services. I’ve got a studio art background, and there actually seem to be lost of artists on our content and delivery staff, and also science and education backgrounds. And one person with no degree, which is cool, because sometimes that totally excludes one from jobs for no reason.

    13. Goya de la Mancha*

      Parks/Rec. – Degrees aren’t really a necessity, but if you don’t have them – you need to have other certifications or licenses as back up.

      FYI – lifeguards are in REALLY high demand across the US. If you can swim well and can pass the class, you’ll pretty much walk into any job anywhere. That being said, it’s generally part-time work with no benefits – but it would make a decent side hustle or even a “till I get back on my feet” job. Also great for students!

    14. HannahS*

      Medicine, and admission requirements are gradually changing to have fewer and fewer prerequisites. You still have to have a degree in something and have written the MCAT (which is harder if you’re from the humanities but not at all impossible), but they’re recognizing that you don’t need an undergraduate degree in biology to be able to be a good doctor. And breadth of experience in the field is a good thing.

    15. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot*

      I work in the investment/financial planning industry and my degree is in teaching. I applied for the job of admin assistant/paraplanner and ended up getting my paraplanner certification as soon as I started. I interviewed well and my boss took a chance on me. I think its all based on experiences and employers who are willing to look at how you perform your job and not what you majored in. Even though I am not teaching, I still use certain skills in my current job that I used in teaching.

    17. Annie Moose*

      Software development. Extremely unlikely to get a programming job without either a degree or certification (bootcamps count) unless you have a solid portfolio of development work. (e.g. contributions to open-source projects or impressive personal projects)

      As far as I can tell, very few companies are willing to teach people how to program–if you legitimately have no experience with programming, not even on personal projects, it would be very difficult to get a programming job.

      You could work your way up to it through a different IT field that doesn’t require programming experience (IT helpdesk or something?) and study on your own and leverage that to get into a programming job.

    18. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Heavy construction. My particular work you would need specific education. However, there is a lot of leeway for Construction Manager administrators. Knowing how to use scheduling software and having an understanding of construction would get one farther in that environment than in my work. Construction is really more something one has to live rather than study to understand, but often the people who get the access for the opportunity are either engineers (specific academic education) or trades (usually from apprenticeship programs, occasionally on-the-job training).

    19. turquoisecow*

      I have an English degree, and I’ve worked for the last almost-decade in the office of a large retail company. (Two different ones, but same industry.) The fact that I had a degree did not factor at all into my hiring, so far as I can tell – the fact that I had experience in the retail half of the industry did. A previous boss of mine majored in music and went on to be director of pricing (he did eventually get a business degree), and another boss majored in sports management and became a merchandiser.

      What all three of us had in common was that we worked in the retail part of the business for a number of years first, and that is a major plus in this industry. The work that we do is helped greatly if you have empathy for the stores, as our job is to support the stores so that the stores can support our customers. Having the background in the actual stores is definitely something that we’ve looked for in hiring new people for similar roles – faaar more important than a degree.

      1. amy l*

        Accounting. Unfortunately, an accounting or finance degree is usually required for anything above assistant/clerk/data entry roles. Experience is a major plus, but if there is no bachelors or above, your resume most likely won’t make it too far.

    20. Archaeologist*

      I work in historic preservation and cultural resource management, which is pretty niche. It’s very difficult to get a full time salaried job doing this straight out of college, but there are seasonal entry-level field jobs, and a major in a related field (history, anthropology/archaeology, architecture, etc.) helps for those. Grad school, internships, and work experience are all important for moving up. I don’t know many people with unrelated college degrees and no relevant grad degree.

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        I’m also an archaeologist, but in the UK. It seems to be slightly more common here to not have a degree at all, at least for people who are over 40, because I gather there was a work training program in the past that gave people field experience. But aside from that most people I know have some sort of related degree, but not necessarily graduate degrees.

    21. Bea W*

      Pharma/Biotech – type of degree you can have depends on the particular job. In some jobs relevant experience will hold more weight over a degree. Obviously you’re not going to be doing bench research with a humanities degree, but there are lots of other roles you can break into through experience.

    22. Thlayli*

      pharma, qualifications really really matter, and I think we had an arts grad in as a temp once for a few days to help with data entry.

    23. Becky*

      I work for a software/data analytics company. My major was linguistics. If you want to be a developer or other IT position at my company you have to have some sort of applicable CS/IT/info security degree, but there are many positions that don’t require that. I work in QA and in my department we have had (besides myself with the linguistics degree) a music major, an English major, an art major (photography emphasis) and a biology major. Critical thinking and analysis skills are more prized than a specific degree.

      My department works specifically on software that has to do with construction and so we have an entire team that is mostly made up of former construction workers/engineers/contractors. Their expertise is invaluable for the industry our software is used in.

    25. oranges & lemons*

      Publishing–for obvious reasons, English and Creative Writing majors are pretty common, and so are other humanities. I don’t think a non-humanities major would set you back, but you might not be as willing to put up with the pay.

    26. anycat*

      i’m an english major who is in HR in the environmental solutions industry. :) work experience and culture fit here is huge. plus i love what i do and i hope it shows.

    27. Kuododi*

      I’m a LMFT with subspecialties in child and adolescent counseling, children in foster care, trauma issues, Spanish language counseling, addictions recovery, pastoral counseling among other things. I have an MDiv in pastoral care and counseling and an EdS in Marriage and Family Therapy. I additionally had to pass national and state licensing boards plus clinical counseling internships.

      1. Kuododi*

        Forgot to add… I’m also an ordained clergywoman. DH and I have a lot of fun with that!!!

    28. Anjay*

      Government (regulation/inspection), and they’ll hire people from any academic background, so far as I know, including those who didn’t go to college at all if they had military experience. I know coworkers whose backgrounds are in education, psychology, film, and English, as well as the more expected stuff like political science and law. What matters is ability to read, think critically, and write well.

    29. Book Lover*

      Medicine. I don’t think we care for secretaries, desk staff, etc. I think more of a business background is expected in administration but that is where experience would come in to play more.

    30. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m a proposal manager on a business development (so, sales) team in the transportation industry. English majors would definitely get hired in this field as would other liberal arts grads. Basically, anyone who’s a strong writer with great time management skills is a dream for proposal management.

    31. Hobgoblin*

      I’m a cop and we take all majors (and pay extra to applicants who have degrees in any major). Dirty secret time- I prefer not to hire criminal justice majors because they’re not bringing anything new to the table. Me? I majored in English, minored in EMS. Both have been incredibly helpful at work. High school kids are always scandalized when I tell them not to get a CH degree :)

    32. AC Slater*

      English major (North American lit concentration) with a minor in classics. Started out as a copy editor for a friend’s small local magazine, and offered to help build up their digital marketing presence (blog, social media, etc.). At the time I didn’t even realize that was what I was doing—I just loved to write and create content on the subject matter!

      That lead to a social media strategist role with a small consulting firm in another niche industry, and then a social media strategist role at a Fortune 200 company, then I moved to their health and benefits line of business and took on more of an integrated marketing role. I just recently started a new role at one of the big health insurance companies leading marketing strategy for one of their products.

      Definitely didn’t picture my career being Strategic Marketing in the healthcare industry, but I love what I do! Marketing is really just storytelling and understanding what makes people tick, so a lit major isn’t a huge stretch. Healthcare is out of left field but I’ve discovered I am really passionate about it, and all that has mattered since about maybe 2 years out of college is my work history.

  36. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Woke up at 4am and couldn’t go back to sleep. I came THISCLOSE to calling out of work today, but… well, I’m here, and my face feels vaguely like it’s melting. Send help.

    1. Just Peachy*

      So sorry! The bright side is that it’s Friday! (assuming you don’t work weekends)

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I don’t, and thank goodness for it! Just need to survive today and then I can go home and pass out.

    2. MissingArizona*

      Drink a ton of water, it helps a lot. There’s also an added bonus of always needing the bathroom, and that’ll get you moving.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Oh, I’m working on it. Right now I sort of feel like I’m thinking through a layer of glue. 4 hours to go….

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Ugh me too. I was asleep on the couch by 9 last night. Dragged myself to bed and I feel more human today.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Solidarity! I got waaay overstimulated by a professional event last night and woke up ready and rarin’ to go at about 3:30 this morning. I did read several chapters of “Educated: A Memoir” by Tara Westover (who grew up in a survivalist family off the grid in Idaho), which was a great use of the twilight hours.

      Hope you get some good rest tonight and this weekend!

    6. Erin*

      I was up at 4am as well to deal with my teething toddler. And then went to work. I am a zombie.

  37. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m meeting an old adviser/mentor of mine from my days in academia for dinner tonight. I haven’t spoken to him since I transitioned out of academia and into an applied role in industry. I’m having major impostor syndrome and have no idea if he will still think I’m smart/interesting/worth the time to have dinner with. I feel like my brain has atrophied in some ways since leaving the academy and I’m struggling to frame what I do now as “real” work in my discipline. I’m so very anxious! I guess I don’t really have a question, just a lot of anxiety and feeling like a grad student again! (I’m 6 years post PhD)

    Any other ex-academics out there still network with your academic colleagues? Is there any way to not feel like your work is “less than”? My industry dovetails with his field research so I’m trying to think of ways to frame what I do in a way that will seem interesting to him. I love the working in an applied role in general, but have struggled a little with my day-to-day recently and have been very much less intellectually challenged and more challenged by the realities of applied work (time and fiscal restraints, doing the “boring” stuff that has to get done).

    1. Leen Wants Cake*

      I am still very close with my friends from grad school (most of whom stayed in academia). Due to a slow job market, etc. in their years after graduation they are often still struggling with adjunct positions, short-term fellowships, or other positions where they need to work up from the bottom. Therefore, they see my (non-academic, but stable) career in a pretty favorable light. No one has ever made me feel “less than” for leaving the academy. If anything, they’ve considered me incredibly lucky to have skills and experience transferable to the non-academic world. (skills which I bulked up at the recommendation of my super-supportive academic adviser/mentor who wanted me to have every advantage and opportunity…and also be able to live under a roof. Best adviser ever!)

      You have a paying job IN THE SAME FIELD YOU STUDIED! This is awesome and something many people with advanced degrees would be very jealous of! If this individual is going to be a jerk to you because you aren’t working in an academic job, they are not someone you want to waste any more time on. And if you truly are pining for the intellectual stimulation of academic work (and not just the prestige associated with it) ask this person for their ideas on your industry, and how emerging trends in scholarship might affect it. In many fields, the academy and industry don’t collaborate in useful ways–maybe your relationship could be a useful conduit for that.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Oh I’m totally over the “prestige” of academia. I’m purely pining for the intellectual stimulation, and the validation that comes from having someone you truly admire intellectually think the work you are doing is interesting and worthwhile. And I plan to do exactly what you suggest–I really want to hear any ways that I can collaborate with those still in academia–unfortunately I feel like there are lots of limitations on this outside of my control (see: corporate NDAs). But I’m definitely going to try to see if there are avenues there!

        Thanks for the reminder that I’m kind of living the dream re: working in the field I got my PhD in. Sometimes it really feels like the work I’m doing in my field is super nominal compared to the amount of time I spend doing things like filling out expense reports or managing invoices, but I’m sure I’d feel the same way about faculty meetings if I was still in academia!

    2. Kate*

      Ex-academic here! I was really nervous about telling my grad school adviser about my first permanent position after my postdoc because not only was it not academia, but it was in a totally different field. But I explained to her what my new role was, the type of work I would be doing, and why I thought it was cool, and her response was, “Wow! That sounds really interesting!” I feel like it’s this totally weird thing in academia that people who transition to industry somehow aren’t as prestigious, so it becomes sort of a personal hurdle to break out of that mindset. I don’t know how long it’s been since you last saw your adviser, but he likely wouldn’t be having dinner with you if didn’t want to. Last time I had dinner with my grad adviser, it was purely social, catching up on each other’s lives and whatnot. It wasn’t really a networking thing, so I wouldn’t worry about feeling the need to connect your work with his. Also, what’s important is that you like your career, and anyone who is a jerk about it is just a jerk.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Oh, I’m not worried he will be a jerk about it. He will most certainly be polite–but I want him to be interested and see what I’m doing as intellectually engaging (when I struggle with that myself!). I don’t think he will begrudge me working outside academia, so much as push me to see the ways my work is or isn’t theoretically and intellectually engaging. He emailed me to catch up as he is in town out of the blue, so it will be a fairly social dinner–I just can’t help but feel like “eek–what am I doing with my life and is it worthwhile?!” when confronted with explaining it to someone who I’ve always been a little star-struck by (even though we worked closely together while I was a student). And we haven’t seen each other in more than 6 years or talked in maybe 4-5. Thank you for your perspective! It helps to hear other ex-academics being accepted by their former advisers.

    3. ket*

      There is actually a reasonable chance that your advisor will ask for your advice on helping students find industry roles. In my field, advisors think, I don’t know anything about industry… I have this student interested in industry (or, the academic market has tanked how will I help this student…)… oh, I’ll email Anonymousaurus Rex! She’ll have ideas on what to do!

      Think about what expertise you have to offer. Many profs do have a secret fear that they “wouldn’t be able to make it in the real world,” after all.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yes, this! I went to my field’s big professional meeting in my city last fall, I saw almost everyone who attended from my grad program, and people seemed pretty positive about my doing “applied” work and admitted it was something they or their students wanted to be looking into. There were even a couple grad students who seemed super relieved to see me and wanted to talk about all the things they didn’t love about academia and what other options might look like for them. It can be nice to show people that you don’t have to fit into just one mold, and nice to be a resource for people whose advisors may not know enough to help them find a different path.

        Also, generally, people will follow whatever tone and framing you set. If you can sound positive and confident about your job, your advisor will pick up on that. I wrote to one of my advisors earlier this week to tell him about the permanent job I’m starting soon, and since he had advised me to go into academia first if I can because “it’s easier to get out than back in,” I put in a few lines about how I thought the new job would be interesting and valuable. He wrote back only positive things, with no pity or regrets about my not going into academia, which I appreciated.

  38. Peaches*

    My coworker is on vacation today and all next week and I’m really jealous. Lol.

    My husband and I have an Alaskan Cruise planned at the end of May, though! Anyone else have any fun trips away from work planned?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      A long weekend in Arizona is on the horizon for the end of the month and I CANNOT WAIT.

    2. [insert witty user name here]*

      We just booked a trip to Ireland this summer! (We live in the USA) I am so excited!!!!!!!

      1. HannahS*

        Hey, me too! I have a week of vacation this summer, and I’m going alone, so I booked a 5-day bus tour.

    4. Angela B.*

      taking my husband home to Australia in November! Australia being my home, not his, we live in the US :) It will be his first visit and we’re very excited.

    6. Jess R.*

      Going to Oregon in a month for my sister’s wedding! I am so excited I cannot breathe. I’m one of the bridal attendants and I adore both my sister and her fiancée, and everything about this wedding is going to be beautiful and gay and flawless. (Taking time off work is just a bonus.)

    7. MissingArizona*

      I’m going to Hawaii! I am just so excited! It’s not till May, but whatever still excited!

    8. Oxford Coma*

      SO ENVIOUS. I can’t travel, indefinitely, due to caring for a family member. I could cry at the idea of being on a beach.

      1. MissingArizona*

        My husband promised to take me when we got married quite a few years ago, but never did. He has gotten to go every year for the last three years, so he didn’t feel the need to go again, so I’m going with my SIL without him. I’ve been stuck in a freezing climate taking care of our life stuff while his job took him around the world, there was quite a bit of my crying for a beach.

    9. PR for Now*

      Going to visit my dad and step-mom in CA this summer :) I’m counting down the days!

    10. Delta Delta*

      We’re going to England in June in part to go to the Royal Ascot horse races! Ponies! Pimm’s Cup! Maybe the Queen!

    11. A Teacher*

      Well, I adopted my daughter in November and come to find out in 8 years she’s never been to Chicago or St. Louis, both are regional for us. I’ve heard the City Museum in St. Louis is awesome as is the zoo–never been to either so I’m deciding between a trip to STL or Chicago for over spring break for a day or two. And well, Chicago is Chicago– lots to do and see and lots of friends that way so we’d have people to see and whatnot.

      1. ML*

        City museum is lots of fun, as is the zoo, riding up in the Arch, and eating a concrete at Ted Drewes. Chicago has the Museum of Science and Industry, the Bean ( aka Cloud Gate), interesting views from the Willis Tower (formerly the Sears Tower) skydeck, and awesome pizza. These are just a few things of the many in either city, so I think you’ll have a blast either way :-).

    12. Librarygal30*

      I’m going to Seattle in May for a conference for a national non-profit, and after it’s over I’m going on my very first cruise, and we are going to Alaska! My time off from work has already been approved, I know who is going to be handling things while I’m gone, and I’m excited!

    13. Ron McDon*

      Going to our favourite destination of Orlando Florida (from the UK) in August. Can’t wait – lovely weather, big villa with private pool, some theme park-ing, nice meals out… I love it!

      Sad that it’ll probably be our last family holiday though (our eldest son is 18 now, and will prob want to go away with his friends/gf next year).

    14. turquoisecow*

      My husband has been promising me a honeymoon since we got married over a year ago, but things keep getting in the way. So…maybe this year?

      1. Kuododi*

        If you and your DH appreciate the quiet mountain getaway type of trip I would recommend Forrest Hills in Dahlonega GA. (We honeymooned there for 6days and 5 nights in a fully loaded cabin.). Hot tub in bedroom, fireplace in family room, small kitchenette. The package we chose came with breakfast and dinner at the main Lodge every day of the visit, (all you could eat country cooking,). Complementary wine and cheese tray on arrival, couples massage, horseback excursion with picnic lunch…. I know there was more but I am old and forgetful!!!! I can’t give current prices but I know it was very reasonable for all that came with the package. Also, Dahlonega is only about 45min from Atlanta as the crow flies so if y’all wanted to make a day of it driving into town to sight see would be feasible. If they are still in business, just check online under Forrest Hills. Enjoy!!!

    15. amy l*

      Pilgrimage to the House of Mouse in October. I haven’t been since I was a kid. Now, as a parent to three, I cringe a bit when we talk about it and make plans. It’s gonna cost a fortune! It’s crowded no matter when you go (so we’ve been told)! No one agrees on what to do! Yea. Bleah.

      1. AC Slater*

        We are going over Memorial Day week, also with 3 kids! And my parents, and my siblings and their spouses and kids…so it will either be a ton of chaotic fun or a drama fest featuring meltdowns by children and adults alike…but I am looking forward to making memories with my kiddos either way.

    16. Artemesia*

      I don’t count because I am retired, but we are going to LA and Portland for a couple of weeks to visit one of our kids and then his wonderful inlaws and then we are heading for Paris for 6 weeks. I love the chance to travel for longer stretches now; we traveled when we were working but usually could never manage more than 3 weeks at the very most (and felt lucky for that of course). The sunk costs of travel are so high and actually staying in a country for weeks is not much more expensive than being at home once you pay the rent — so longer stretches are cost effective.

    17. Cloud 9 Sandra*

      Alaska vacation in May as well. Only one day cruise, I’m staying in Seward.

    18. tab*

      Spending a few days in Rome and then cruising down the coast, around Sicily and back to Rome. Excited to finally see the southern part of Italy!

    19. Abelard*

      My roommate is on vacation in California this week, I’m a little bit jealous of her.

      I don’t have anything planned for this year, but will take some time off (use it or lose it PTO) probably visit family.

      But NEXT year I’m planning a 12 day Mediterranean cruise.

    20. As Close As Breakfast*

      I’m going to Michigan at the end of April for 10 days, and I am counting down the days for sure! I’ve never been. I’m going for a genealogy conference (because I like to do research in my spare time to relax ;) ) and it’s where my mom grew up. She passed away last year, so it was a ‘must-do’ kind of thing. I can’t wait to get the break from work and to see Greenfield Village because I love a good living history museum!!

  39. Yams*

    Hi guys! I wrote last week about the client who propositioned me. Fortunately for me, his corporate team decided to approve the project and we were given green light to continue with engineering approval ready, so I won’t need to interact with him anymore! So, everything ended well.

  40. BZ*

    I’ve been at my job for three years now, and I’m getting antsy. I’ve been looking around at other opportunities, and it turns out that with my skillset, I could be making WAY more money at a different company (I’m talking 40% increase), doing basically the same work. The problem is that my manager is amazing and has been incredibly supportive of me through some health issues I’ve faced. She’s also supportive of my career goals, checks in often but not too often, and is always willing to fight for her direct reports. I’m sure I will never find another manager this good.

    She has asked multiple times whether I’m planning on sticking around (usually whenever someone else leaves; we have high turnover in my position), and I’ve assured her that I have no plans to leave (which was always true at the time!). Now that I may be leaving soon, I’m wondering how to break the news to her if I get an offer. I know it is normal to leave your job, but I’m sad about telling her, and I feel like she’ll be so disappointed in me! The scripts I’ve seen in previous posts and other places on the internet all seem too harsh and impersonal to me… I want to tell her gently, while thanking her for all she’s done for me. Does anyone have any recommendations?

    1. a-no*

      I really like my current boss, hate the actual job. I got a new job this week and quit.
      I spun it as I really appreciated my boss, but this just fell into my lap and I couldn’t turn it down. I hinted without actually saying it that I was recruited not I applied, and my boss was sad I was leaving but very happy for me.
      I also took the time to fully thank her as I really did appreciate what kind of manager she is.

    3. AC Slater*

      Almost this exact situation happened to me a couple of months ago. My manager was not disappointed in me in the slightest. He was very disappointed I was leaving, but happy for my career opportunity. A great manager will have dealt with this before and won’t take it personally. Having said that, is it possible she could counter and match a salary offer from elsewhere? My manager was able to get approval to match my offer (40% pay raise) and put me in a new role standing up a new function on his team. It just ultimately wasn’t the right career move for me compared to the other offer, and he knew it. When I spoke with him the next day he agreed me with that the other opportunity was better and that while he was very upset to lose me, he was thrilled that I was moving to a new amazing opportunity. It really is business as usual to them, even if they care about you — in my experience, if they care about you they will be sad to see you go but cheering you on.

      If you really trust her, it might make sense to raise the subject with her that you’ve been made aware of similar opportunities out there in the market that pay much better, and that it’s made you think about looking. The one thing my manager told me he was bummed about was that if I had told him earlier that I was looking, he would have had more time to find the right internal opportunity to keep me on. (I debated it, because he really is the best boss I’ve ever had, but ultimately I decided I needed to play it safe.) Either way, do not feel guilty about doing what you need to do to take care of yourself and your career! Worrying about her reaction will probably be way more stressful for you than the actual conversation will be. (And FWIW—I didn’t use an Allison script when I gave notice. I was pretty hearfelt and probably not super professional—but we had the kind of rapport where it would have been weird to take a scripted approach.)

  41. A. Nonnymoose*

    It’s becoming clear to me I’m never going to be worth much- I’ve got no room for advancement and I’m going to have to count myself lucky if I get a cost of living raise, much less anything else.

    Getting another job isn’t an option (because clearly I’m a disappointment and in spite of giving everything I can, I’m apparently not doing work worth rewarding, so no one will want me.) I don’t want to move into retail or service- I’m just not physically fit enough for it and it would probably be big pay cut.

    I’m moving into the second half of a decade of being an entry-level disappointment and it’s just… hard to keep my spirits up. Any tips on how to find satisfaction when there’s no chance for growth? I used to be able to feel good about doing my job well (within my limited means, I guess, since I’m obviously not doing that well… though I’ve never actually gotten negative feedback) but I’m so, so tired. I know I’m lucky to be employed and have insurance for the moment, and that I’m spoiled beyond belief to be complaining at all, but berating myself strangely isn’t making me feel better anymore.

    (Again, the answer isn’t “just get another job.” There aren’t jobs I’m qualified for, because I’ve been doing the same thing for so long that the best I could do is get the same job I’m sick of for less money somewhere else, and that doesn’t sound like an improvement.)

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      That sounds like a really hard place to be. I’m afraid I have no advice, just sympathy.

    2. Paige*

      Sometimes it helps to put it in perspective as “working to live” not living to work. I’m in a similar boat where I work–there is no option to advance without changing jobs, but changing jobs isn’t really an option for me either. I try to find my own meaning in what I do, and in what I do outside of work. I remind myself that even when I don’t love what I do, my work lets me do other stuff I like to do. It might help to find some creative/fun outlets outside of work.

      Of course, that being said, it’s worth being proud of being employed somewhere for over half a decade. You’re probably better than you think. You sound like you might be depressed, so that might be worth looking into a bit more, too.

      1. A. Nonnymoose*

        Thanks- it’s hard to talk about this and not just be told I need a new job. Believe me if I thought there was a snowball’s chance in hell anyone would take me, I’d be there. But there aren’t jobs for anyone right now. I know I’m lucky in that I’ve failed into something reasonably stable.
        But it stings to hear that at best they could MAYBE think about taking away a few of my most onerous least interesting duties in a few more years, IF we have a really lucrative year. Ugh.
        On paper I’m eminently qualified (another useless masters’ degree holder) but I just.. there’s something lacking about me in person. And what I’ve been doing doesn’t have a direct parallel or next-step anywhere else, so if I moved on it’d have to be a step down, at which point I’m competing with fresh college grads so it’d probably be a pay cut.
        Plus, ironically, I’m so involved with several ongoing major projects I can’t even take a day off- and yet, not worth keeping!

        I think I’m just depressed about capitalism in general.

    3. fposte*

      That sounds frustrating, but you also sound really, really hard on yourself. I also hear “because clearly I’m a disappointment and in spite of giving everything I can, I’m apparently not doing work worth rewarding, so no one will want me” as you taking a situational difficulty as a measure of you overall, kind of like an abused partner saying “he doesn’t want me so clearly nobody ever will.”

      And it almost never is. People disappoint and/or get underpaid at jobs all the time as just situational crapola, not because of their personal deficit. I don’t mean this as some rah-rah, you’re gonna be an astronaut kind of pep talk; I do think, though, that if you’re not talking to a therapist it might be useful to throw one in the mix, because I think you’re more worthy of other possibilities than you realize.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This.
        There is nothing more soul crushing than to believe that we have no more opportunities in work and/or life. This belief can kill us on the inside. I can hear your insides are dying right now as we type.

        Have you thought about volunteering some where? Have you thought about taking your degrees that you have
        and using them in volunteer work somehow?

    4. Leah*

      I’m exactly at the same situation as you are. I’ve been doing an entry level job for the past almost six years – three years at my old job and one and a half at my current one – and I really want to do MORE. However, this job doesn’t have a career plan, my attempts to be transferred to a different office where I’ll be able to grow and learn more have all been for naught, and now that I’m job-seeking I find myself applying for jobs that I’m highly qualified for, but that ask for one or two years of experience, where I have SIX. I really want to grow on my career and I worry that accepting this same entry-level job, only at a different company, will mean I’ll have to do the same entry-level work for one or two more years until I’m considered for a promotion. It’s all very exhausting, worrying, and discouraging, but I’m trying not to give up.

      Here’s an advice for both you and me: every time I lost a job, even when things seemed dire and hopeless as they are right now, I eventually ended up on a better paying, better all-around job. We’re good enough, and we just need people to see it, and for people to see it, we have to put ourselves out there. Keep moving forward, start job seeking, and who knows, maybe the perfect company and the perfect boss will find you, as they found me three other times before. It’s not the end of the world. We’ll get through this storm, as we always do.

    5. LCL*

      Your post reads as though you believe because you aren’t making much money or having a knockout career you are a disappointment as a person. This can’t be true, you are not your job. Some jobs and even career fields are basically dead ends; that is not a poor reflection on you. It is depressing though.

      I think if you spent a bit of time outside of work on interests that aren’t work you would feel better. One thing that helps me is typing a word or phrase into my search engine and see where the research takes me. I always end with some new information about my various interests and new things to pursue. If you do this but aren’t able to get off the couch and follow through, you may need some help. There’s depression and depression, ya know? Some depression responds well to new interests, sometimes it gets so deep that you can’t help yourself. It’s not as simple as I make it sound, I’m not saying ‘just get over it.’ Again, you are not your job.

      1. A. Nonnymoose*

        Thanks- and yeah, I know on one level I’m not my job… I do have outside-the-office pursuits and passions and I’m not entirely discounting that. But at the same time I’m spending more than half my time at work or on the way to and from work, and my prospects for the future look worse and worse, it’s hard not to get caught up in feeling badly about that.

        Especially when taking time off isn’t an option because we’re too busy with X and Y… I know it’s self-involved but there’s a part of me that thinks, if I’m so important to X and Y then why am I so expendable overall?

        1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

          I don’t know if this will help without the additional support for what is (sorry) an armchair diagnosis of depression, and possibly burn out, but I had a small lightbulb moment after my mentor told me the following quote: “If an opportunity presents itself, say yes, and work out how to do it later.” In other words, if you can get support to bring your self worth back up where it belongs (key word here is *self*. You say you’ve not had negative feedback, but all your descriptions of yourself here are nothing but negative), you may find you more easily see an opportunity for growth, even if it’s the opportunity to change within your current role (and without needing a lucrative year)
          And yes, it’s a cliche, but you are better than you think you are.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You could be so expendable because you work for jerks.

          Who is telling you that you are expendable?

      2. AJ Pre K*

        I love the line from the Disney movie Brink. “My job is what I do, not who I am.” I also feel you OP about your job. I have a Marine Biology degree and I can’t do anything with it due to medical problems. I ended up literally falling into teaching pre-k, and ended up loving it! Talking to a therapist helps too.

  42. Tomato Soup*

    I had just submitted a job application yesterday with a cover letter, with help of editing by my sister and a friend. I ended up revising my cover letter between the edits of my friend and my sister, and tips from this blog.

    the automatic email says to wait 4-6 weeks so here i go..

    2. Squeeble*

      Nah, but it makes sense you’d get that impression–most people posting here would be posting for those reasons or related ones.

    6. NaoNao*

      It’s totally dependent on how good their current job is! I cycle in and out of wanting a new job, but I think the impression you’re getting here is because this space is for job hunting, trouble shooting difficult jobs and coworkers, and venting about job sux stuff. So everyone seems more upset and looking than the reality.

    7. Goya de la Mancha*

      Meh…I’d circle both.

      I really like my job (as in responsibilities, skill set, etc.). I like my boss. I could really do with some new co-workers (or even a couple of the old ones that I didn’t want to leave!). I don’t really trust my company. I am paid decently, but I’d like the opportunity for more.

      1. only acting normal*

        Same here. Mostly like the work, mostly like the colleagues (though if micromanager wore a tie I’d strangle him with it), pay is a bit rubbish, but I’ve wrangled long and hard to carve an acceptable role, work space and timetable.
        If I were still ambitious for status I should move on but… meh.

    10. Delta Delta*

      I made an escape from a horribly toxic job just over a year ago. It took me about a year prior to realize the place was basically a superfund site of evil humans and that bad things should happen to them. Then it’s taken me about a year to get my feet under me with my new gig, and I’m pretty happy with it.

      Right now I’m working with a purring cat on my lap, so that’s a major plus.

    13. A Teacher*

      Nope. I don’t love everything about my job, but as I noted upthread, no one knows what I’m supposed to do so that’s a plus in some ways.

    14. T3k*

      Well, I’m kinda in both. I love the job I have but my contract ends very soon, so I need another job. This just sucks because this is the first time I’ve had a job that paid well and I enjoyed showing up for every morning.

    16. Dionaea*

      I’m good! Just finishing up the first month in a new role I’ve wanted most of my life. So happy not to be hunting for two years at least!

    17. Book Lover*

      No, I’m happy with where I am :)
      Not that there aren’t always some issues, but nothing remarkable and I like the people around me.

    18. Sarah*

      Nah. I started reading this blog when I was job searching multiple jobs ago, but now I’m mostly here for the crazy work stories.

    19. Mimmy*

      Probably both want and need a new job – I do like my supervisor, I’ve gotten really good feedback about my performance, and the pay is good. However, it’s a state-run facility, and it’s a very bureaucratic system. Plus, I don’t get benefits because I’m part-time / per-diem.

    20. Jiya*

      I want to take all five of my weeks of saved-up leave right now, but that’s the “ugh can winter please end” blues talking. My situation isn’t perfect, but I’d definitely have a hard time finding a better one.

    21. Claire (Scotland)*

      Nope, I love my job. There’s just not a lot of reasons to post that fact here – it feels weird to say that when other people are posting about problems.

    22. NowAGrandma*

      Nope, I like my job most of the time, but management lurches between new processes and reorgs and seasoned people leaving; I like to keep up with the topics here. I am too old to go for a totally new job so I am praying that my job won’t go totally toxic for at least the next few years.

    23. Tedious Cat*

      Nah, I adore NewJob (one year this month)! But OldJob wasn’t a good fit and my boss recommended reading AAM during my less-than-sterling performance review. Without AAM, I doubt I would have gotten NewJob. Now I’m firmly in the habit, but now I read for advice on moving up in my job, not surviving a bad one or getting a new one. Oh, and the trainwrecks. Always the trainwrecks. They help me keep perspective on just how great NewJob is. :)

  44. What's with today, today?*

    Parental interference, with the child’s approval:

    This doesn’t affect me at all, but it’s an interesting parental interference story. My husband is a local criminal defense attorney. We are great friends with one of the felony prosecutors that has been in our DA’s office for more than five years. She’s a good attorney. She can be tough(in a great she-boss way), but she is respected and liked. The DA hired a new misdemeanor attorney last year. She is fresh out of law school, and her father is a Provost at the local private Baptist university. The two attorneys don’t get along, and the junior attorney has not been receptive to feedback from the more senior felony attorney. Felony attorney is job searching, b/c Junior attorney’s DAD called the DA, made a meeting appointment, and read him the riot act about his daughter’s feelings being hurt. His daughter knew he did this!! It will be a huge loss for our DA to lose the more senior attorney, as the junior attorney is not well liked or respected. (my husband, who got his start in the junior attorney’s position, says she’s pretty awful at her job, and not picking up on courtroom norms).

    Anyone else have parental interference stories?

    1. kbeers0su*

      Bahahaha…yes, I have stories. I work in higher education with college students, so there’s this weird paradox where we want to treat them like adults (because they are) but parents aren’t quite ready to let go. And we’re not just talking about their student stuff (roommates, grades)- I’m talking their employment status, too.

      My favorite: a student applied for an on-campus job that required references, and she listed her mom as one of her references. Mom fills out a reference form for us. And she was HONEST. Like “my daughter isn’t that great at meeting deadlines, doesn’t show initiative, and can be awkward” honest. If this is how parents interfered I’d be all for it. Just imagine what kind of insider info we could get on candidates…

    2. Caledonia*

      I am wondering if your user name, today, is from Empire Records or from the Karate Kid?

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in admissions at a university, so I have seen all manners of parental interference. The worst was when a mother of a current student called me to complain about his academic advisor (?). I hung up when she used a racial slur.

      Typical parental interference is usually stuff like parents applying to the university for their kids, only the parents communicating with me and restricting access to the actual student, etc.

      1. Tragic The Gathering*

        Fellow undergraduate admissions person here. I once had a mom get my number and call me VERY upset because her daughter was graduating with a “University Studies” degree and she was mad at the university for “letting her pay all that money and then only giving her daughter a degree that won’t be useful.” I was very happy to encourage her to speak directly to her daughter and get off the phone as quickly as possible.

    4. Little Bean*

      Well, you can tell that people who work at universities have tons of these kinds of stories. I do too but I’ve actually had some turn out positively. In a few cases, I’ve been working with students who are really struggling, like not doing well academically, sometimes with mental health issues involved. Sometimes the parents being uber involved has actually been helpful, in that they come in with their kid and tell them “pay attention! write down what she’s saying!” So when they’re not trying to actually do the work for their kid, I welcome their interference :).

    5. Notthemomma*

      I was a College junior working in the financial aid dept. The mother of a medical student somehow got in her head I was the only one who could help son get his loans and she would call 2-3x a week! When she came to help move him in they came in and she was shocked i was a young’n and not the most senior person she imagined. And yes, I had told her I was a student worker.

      1. Jiya*

        Hey, that speaks well to your composure on the phone! Conversely, when I worked at a nonprofit theater I once had a call from a Subscriber From Hell who insisted that only a manager could sell her that season’s subscriptions. Only upon interrogating my credentials and finding that I was in my final year of law school did she deem me worthy of the transactions. So really, the graduate education was all worth it!

    6. Middle School Teacher*

      Yes, I’m a different sense. In my second year of teaching a colleague called MY MOM to complain about me. They knew each other from somewhere else, I guess. I saw my mom and she was like, “so I got this phone call…”

      1. Casuan*

        Middle School Teacher, you gotta give us the rest of that story, please. How did your mum respond?

        Okay, not really…
        Seriously… Wo!!

  45. Leen Wants Cake*

    How do you list a change in job title on your resume when the position itself didn’t actually change? My department head was recently replaced by someone incompetent. The good news is that his new person does not have a whole lot of influence or power to make significant change, as most of out processes and work requirements are established at higher organizational levels. However (possibly to make up for his lack of real power), he has begun asserting his “dominance” in petty, annoying, administrative ways, including changing everyone’s job titles….
    …which means my current title “Teapot Operations Division Head” is going to become “Teapot Operations Division Chief.” My work has not changed at all. How should I list this pointless title change on a resume without confusing those who read it or getting too wordy?:

    Teapot Operations Division Chief (formerly Teapot Operations Division Head) 2013-Present ?
    Or something else?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I have
      Current title (dates)
      Previous title (dates)
      Job duties/accomplishments for both listed here

    2. Murphy*

      I think that’s fine. It makes it clear that it’s a name change and not a position change.

  46. Ainomiaka*

    People who contract/freelance. What is the general time you don’t know what the rate of pay will be? I in theory have a job with a company doing some review of other companies reports. Pay is based on reports reviewed. When I first talked about this, they were in negotiations about pay rate. Project hadn’t started yet, so I didn’t think much of it at the time. It’s now been two weeks since the project started and they still claim they don’t know. Who signs a contract without knowing what they will be paid? So far I am doing the initial set of work that I got, but should I not take any more? How sketchy is this?

    1. Bea*

      You shouldn’t be finishing work without a payrate in place. You are setting yourself up for getting lowballed because then you can’t really fight them in the end, there’s no rate in the contract. They’re taking advantage of you!!!

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Usually in freelance work, you tell them what your rate is and maybe let them negotiate a mutually agreeable amount. I would absolutely never do any work without knowing how much I will be paid. In this case you seem to be waiting for a third party to determine the amount they will pay a secondary party before you know your rate. But that is backwards. You tell the secondary party what you charge to do your work. They can use that in negotiating payment with the third party if they so choose, but it shouldn’t affect how much you get paid. It’s way sketchy.

  47. Inigo Montoya*

    Case Manager shortcuts
    One of my case manager has been out on extended medical leave. Rather than divide cases and pile more work on other already overloaded case managers, I took on her case load. I have been using my iPhone speech to text feature to record case notes after a home visit then email them to myself then copy and paste in our data system. It has saved me some time and it got me to thinking about what other shortcuts or time management tricks more seasoned case workers use to manage the dreaded case notes tasks.

    Whatcha got?

    1. Close Bracket*

      I use Evernote for that. There is an iPhone version and a desktop version, so basically I skip the email it to myself step. Our use it to transfer things between my phone and my desktop all the time, not just text but also photos and PDFs.

  48. anon for a minute*

    I had a really off-putting experience seeing my new primary care doctor this week. I’d love some insight from anyone who knows the medical field to tell me if this is as egregious as I felt it is, and if there’s something I should do about it (would someone higher up want to know?).

    So this was my first appointment with my new pcp. For background, it’s an office affiliated with a very well known hospital in a city known for high standards of medical care. My tl;dr complaint is that they didn’t seem to know how to handle mental health issues.

    When I first went into the exam room with the nurse, we went over what medications I was on. I told her I take an anxiety medication, and she said that she doesn’t like prescribing those to “young people like me” and then asked if I’d tried tapping or meditation. She had a whole spiel about the magic of tapping to relieve anxiety and when I told her meditating didn’t work for me, she thought I should just keep trying. I also explained that I only take medication in a couple circumstances (flying and concerts). That led her to ask what had happened to me in a crowd that gave me this anxiety. I was just like, nothing happened? That’s just how phobias work sometimes? You’re a nurse, shouldn’t you know that? I honestly wish I’d just left then, but pcp appointments take forever to schedule and I hoped the doctor would be better than the nurse.

    And she was about the anxiety. However, she was almost bafflingly inept at dealing with the depression screening survey that I’d had to fill out. I’ve had depression for years now, I’m not currently seeing a therapist or taking medication. It’s just not that bad at the moment and I have a pretty “it is what it is” outlook on it. But after tiptoeing around the subject, she got really frustrated and said, “You’re not really helping me with your sadness!” And I was like, I’m sorry, my what?

    She explained that I wasn’t helping her because I wasn’t telling her what I wanted to do about it. We talked about how I’d been seeing a therapist before I moved here, to which she said, “So you haven’t had a person since you moved?” Which, once again, threw me off because I had no idea what she meant by that. Basically I was defensive, she was fumbling, and I just lied and said my depression is seasonal and it will be fine soon. I left the office with a few cards for therapists in the area and I’m definitely finding another new pcp office for next year.

    Sorry that was a novel, but I’m flabbergasted that employees of a major hospital acted that way about mental health. Back to the underlying question: is this bad enough to contact someone? Is there someone who oversees offices who give mental health screenings? Can I contact someone anonymously, and maybe recommend they train their staff better? I feel lucky that I already have a handle on my mental illnesses, I’m mostly concerned about other patients who may actually need their advice. Thanks in advance to anyone who has advice!

    1. CTT*

      Did you meet with the physician or just the nurse? If you met the physician and liked them, I would get in contact with them directly to let them know how off-putting you found it. If it’s a doctor who cares about these things, they’ll want to know and correct the nurse’s approach. If they’re cool with how that nurse acted, you know not to go to that doctor again. I’m not sure about escalating beyond that – it depends on the level of affiliation (if it’s just an affiliation like renting office space from them, it’s going to be verrrrrry hands-off).

      1. CTT*

        Whoops, by escalating, I meant escalating to the hospital, dependent on level of the physician’s practice to the hospital.

        And fwiw, I once had an awful experience with OBGYN nurses who had what I’m sure they thought was a lot of praise for my sexual inactivity. I was really upset, and was planning on saying something later, but my doctor noticed right away when he came in to see me, asked me a few questions and realized what it was about, and the nurses never brought it up again in subsequent visits. Good doctors want you to be comfortable if only because it makes their jobs easier. And like I said, if the doctor in your case doesn’t care, that’s probably not someone you want to see again

        1. Artemesia*

          I have never had a nurse taking the medical history give advice; they always defer to the doctor in my experience. A nurse had zero business suggesting that current prescriptions were inappropriate or to use meditation instead unless they are functioning as a nurse practitioner i.e. primary caregiver, themselves.

      2. anon for a minute*

        It was both the physician and the nurse. The fourth and fifth paragraphs are about the doctor’s behavior, my wording just wasn’t super clear. And it’s a clear affiliation with the hospital. The clinic is under the hospital’s name and website, just a separate location from the main hospital.

    2. Parenthetically*

      What. Oh gosh. This is appalling. I’m SPUTTERING, and I have no advice but all the hulksmashing.

    3. Myrin*

      Ugh, my sister was in-patient at our local hospital’s psych ward two years ago. It was the first step in her successful-but-still-ongoing treatment for depression, anxiety, and PTSD. People generally were really wonderful but there was this one novice nurse who, one day while taking her blood pressure and stuff, chatted with her and in the course of that chat also asked why she was there and when she answered “depression”, he was astounded that that was something she would have at nineteen.
      Like.
      My dude.
      You work in a psychiatry. Please try to at least seem more competent than that.

      2. Trillion*

        Geeeeeeeeeeeez. I know of 12 year olds who have been in in-patient for depression. Like… really dude. Is that the first patient you’ve encountered? Nurse would probably be devastated to go work in the children’s ward.

    4. Close Bracket*

      I am very sorry you had that experience with your doctor and nurse. That’s terrible. If she is part of a group, yes I would write a letter.

    5. Decima Dewey*

      Your nurse is awful and isn’t going to change. Unfortunately there are a lot of health professionals who get stuck on one minor aspect of a mental health problem and think it’s the main problem. Even when you try to tell them it isn’t.

    6. Elizabeth H.*

      Yes it’s bad enough to contact someone. I would definitely complain about her unprofessional and basically, lousy treatment of you as a patient. Were you seeing her as your main provider (I have an RN as my PCP, but I love her) or was this an initial screening with a nurse before you saw an MD or different provider? If the latter, I would write a complaint to the doctor who is the ‘head’ of the office. Or if as you say this is at a large hospital, you could complain to their HR department, or they may have a patient ombudsperson, or a reporting/quality control contact. Look at the hospital website and see if you can find a relevant contact.

    7. BadPlanning*

      A nurse suggesting that you drop a medication without any input from the doctor seems dangerous. I have relatives who’ve stopped taking medications cold turkey and almost hurt themselves based on comments from someone with less medical authority.

      If you’re wary of talking to the doctor, there may be a general “Patient Services” department. I had great luck talking to them when I ran into a messed up billing vs estimate issue.

    8. Trillion*

      I’d switch PCPs (if that’s something you’re able to do). The nurse’s behavior would have made me wary, and the doctor’s frustration would have cemented it for me. I’ve dealt with anxiety and depression since I can remember, so I need a doctor who is at least sort of competent in dealing with it.

      As to the meat of your actual questions: I’m not sure it’s bad enough to contact someone over, but I would be sure to write some reviews mentioning these problems. When I choose doctors, I rely on reviews in various places to spot any red flags (while also keeping in mind that reviews should be taken with a grain of salt)

    9. LCL*

      Tapping? Tapping! If I went to a modern medical practice and was suggested tapping I would be complaining to whoever I could complain to. I, er, sometimes believe in some kinds of woo but don’t go to western medicine for that. Likewise, I wouldn’t ask alternate practitioners about their recommendations for Lasik, etc.

      1. anon for a minute*

        Exactly. I try not to be judgmental of other people’s beliefs if it’s not hurting anyone and I believe in some woo things too. But I don’t appreciate being evangelized to about holistic treatments at a normal doctor’s office. I might have even accepted it if it was just casually mentioned as a possible complement to medication. But just give me my effing Xanax instead of telling me how I should just leave a concert to tap myself in a bathroom.

    10. deesse877*

      The nurse is 1000% out of line, not only because she presumed to second-guess your medication, but also because the line about “people your age” or whatever can be construed as an implication that you’d abuse the medication. If it were me I would complain to the practice about her, in very strong terms, in writing.

      The doctor…I think she’s a little different. I had nearly the same thing happen to me with a new PCP–she was all “you have major depression!” and I’m like “yes, I have since I was twelve, a dozen medications have been useless, so I just let it ride unless things are very bad” and she reacted with shock, pressure, repetition, probing questions, and a similar kind of frustration to what you describe. I think she was personally a “fixer” who didn’t like to do nothing, but also she believed that she was offering the established standard of care. IN other words, she thought she **had** to intervene, just like she would with untreated diabetes. I suspect, in short, that that sort of uncomfortable conversation is exactly what happens when you DO get PCP’s to take depression seriously. They treat it like every other disease. They have only hammers–I.e., interrogate, shame and prescribe pills–so everything looks like a nail. I don’t have a solution other than to tell them to back off, and maybe wave around the name of your prescribing psychiatrist.

      1. anon for a minute*

        I think what bothered me more about the doctor was her unwillingness to be matter of fact about it. Like saying “sadness” instead of “depression” and “a person” instead of “a therapist.” I honestly had no idea what she meant when she was talking about my sadness because I’m not sad when I’m depressed. I have no feelings!

    11. Book Lover*

      I’m kind of weirded out that the nurse made any comment at all. It doesn’t sound like an NP, or you wouldn’t have seen the MD as a pcp, right? So she should have just been taking information, not giving you advice, usually.

      It sounds like that set things off on a funny foot and then the MD handled things not in the best way, either. You could probably contact the office manager to comment that you were surprised the nurse tried to give medical advice before the physician saw you. Typically in most private practice offices there isn’t someone who oversees the physician – they’re at the head of the practice, but you could add that you were disappointed in the physician’s approach to your mood issues.
      If it isn’t a private practice, there is usually an office that deals with complaints, but I’m not sure it would be worth it for this, necessarily.

      Sorry :(

    12. SpaceNovice*

      Oh no, oh no.

      Definitely write a letter and maybe consider finding a new PCP if possible THIS year. That’s very alarming and shows the doctor and nurse are both too uniformed with mental health to really trust with your safety. I’d be worried they’d not give you the medications refills you need down the road. I’ve heard of doctors that’ll just wholesale change up someone’s medications when they’re STABLE and wreck everything. Both of those people sound like the type that would. And they probably don’t understand how to work with therapists/psychologists like a psychiatrist would, either.

      Good luck, anon for a minute!

    13. anonagain*

      “You’re not really helping me with your sadness!”

      This sounds like something out of a sitcom. One of those sitcoms that makes me so anxious I have to hide under a blanket. I hate that you had to deal with that in real life.

      If you are going to make a complaint about the nurse, which I think is warranted, I think it’s worth mentioning this, too. If I worked as a hospital administrator (or whoever deals with these things), I would want to know if I should be investigating the possibility of a more widespread cultural issue/lack of competency or a single employee’s misbehavior.

      I think they can sort it all out on their end.

      I hope you can find a better doctor.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      In addition to what everyone else has said, their people skills are horrible. Total lack of respect. I don’t understand why so many are like this.

    15. AliceBD*

      I work at a big hospital system. Look on the hospital’s website for things like a patient’s rights document and the department that handles patient issues. At my system it is called the Patient Advocate department but I’m not sure if other hospitals call it other things. Our patient advocates would absolutely want to hear about your experience.

      (If you complain on social media for my system you’ll get a message directing you to the same patient advocate department, so you can do that, but it won’t get you anywhere new.)

  49. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Never thought I would say this but I am jealous of my barista friend. They are trans and work is open about letting them have what pronouns they like, while I would get laughed out of the firm.

    A good thing though: I got my ABA “lawyer census” in the mail, and under demographics they have an option for “nonbinary/other gender”. Now I’m not sure if I should risk it!

    1. Rulesfor*

      Very much this. I miss being a barista for this reason, and I don’t think I can get away with it as a social worker. There’s not neutral (ha ha) way to start going by gender-neutral pronouns in this field.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        If you are very lucky with where you work, I think you can.

        For instance, I know people at Callen-Lourde and that’s a place.

        1. Rulesfor*

          Oh, for sure! If it’s a place that specializes in services for queer people, I think that’s a whole different ballgame. My previous job was in that kind of environment, and I was able to go by they/them pronouns there. But I think any place that isn’t specialized like that is going to be much more difficult, if not impossible.

    2. Very Anon for This*

      I sometimes think about trying to go by they/them and then get exhausted thinking about having to explain it to every person in my life. Maybe someday it’ll be more mainstream.

  50. MidThirties*

    Need some advice on giving constructive criticism to my 79 year old employee. The last time we had to do this, things got much, much worse for me in an already difficult job. Criticizing her is effectively upsetting everyone’s beloved grandmother. But beloved Grandmother enjoys making me suffer. The latest incident is asking me about my progress on a matter, allowing me to answer and ask her to continue to let me lead, and then going behind my back and doing the exact opposite.

    1. fposte*

      Are you her manager, with hire and fire power over her, or is this a team lead situation? When you say things got worse for you, do you mean your own manager told you off? And when you found out that she did the opposite of what you told her to do, did you ask her to explain her thinking?

      If you already dislike the job and you have no power here I would probably just focus my energies on looking elsewhere. However, other possibilities include letting the chips fall where they may on counseling her or redistributing tasks that she can’t do correctly.

      1. MidThirties*

        Supervisor with performance evaluation responsibility. My own supervisor is receptive to my issues, but acknowledges that it is basically a political situation and impossible to remove her. When I say “got worse” my boss and grandboss were not angry, but the 30 other people in our department that I am responsible for were VERY angry and I have not yet recovered from the freeze out.

        A new job is open, I have applied. My boss is very depressed that I have applied, but alas..

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Can speaking with her be escalated to boss and grandboss? Can there be some subtle messaging to the rest of your department about what a miserable and tough position she’s putting you in?

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Your boss is depressed? He is the one with the power to fix this. That group of 30 needs to hear it from him.

          You were frozen out? And this is acceptable behavior? Each one of those “freezers” should have had their own write for their behavior and for their ganging up on you as a group. If that is not rampant insubordination, I don’t know what is.

          So basically this 79 year old moody person runs the company. Yeah, time to call it a day. This turned into an upper management problem at some point. The upper managers do not have much spine.

          1. MidThirties*

            “So basically this 79 year old moody person runs the company. ”

            Very, very accurate.

    2. MidThirties2.0*

      I swear this could be me and I feel what you are throwing down so acutely. My elderly employee told me in a one-on-one that they no longer wanted to do several duties related to their job. No kidding because the work was terrible or already non-existent. I went to my boss and they wouldn’t let me do anything about it–“we owe them for their decades of service.” Luckily, some new technology was announced (strategically) that would drastically change their day-to-day and require them to learn a new system. Retirement happened. I totally respect seasoned staff and extensive experience but when you no longer can or want to perform the duties intrinsic to your position, there has to be a conversation started about an exit strategy.

      1. MidThirties*

        “we owe them”—the exact situation I am in. She has worked here since the teapot factory opened. She’s 79.

  51. Opalescent Tree Shark*

    I don’t think there’s anything I can do about my situation, but I would still appreciate if anyone has any advice.

    One of my peers was promoted to my manager, let’s call her Arya. Because of budget cuts, the decision was made not to fill Arya’s old position. I asked if Arya’s old duties would be distributed amongst the rest of us (there are 4 people she now directly manages), and was told they would not be. Arya is responsible for almost all of her old job, plus her new responsibilities as manager. This happened a couple months ago, and lately is has become clear that Arya may be already burning out. She seems to be working 50 hours weeks (which is very unusual for my industry) and she is making a ton of mistakes on her old duties that she never used to make before. The mistakes she is making do have some impact on my work, but they are more annoying to fix than anything else. It’s not having a huge impact, at least on me personally.

    Do I have any standing to say anything? To make matters more complicated, I also applied to the manager position when it came open. I bare no hard feelings toward Arya, I completely understand why she was picked and I wasn’t, but I am afraid of the optics of pointing out that she’s not really effective at her old job while also working her new one.

    2. SadNeedle*

      Arya has to be her own advocate and realize that she cannot nor should she do it all. If they hired her as a manager, they must think she has the skills and expertise to lead a team but leading also involves realizing time and priority limitations as well as delegation. Tell her you have noticed the long hours and ask her if there’s anything she can delegate to the team that would be sent back to her for final approval? Not sure she’ll take you up on the offer especially if it was made clear to her that she needs to perform those duties but I do feel sorry for her.

    3. DCompliance*

      Did Arya make a choice not to delegate her old work or did higher ups make that decision?

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        I’m not 100% sure. When I asked if her old duties would be redistributed, I asked our director (so my grandboss), but I am not clear if it was director’s decision or if the director was just communicating Arya’s decision.

        1. DCompliance*

          You might be able to ask her directly if she would like any assistance. Other than that, Arya should really be the one to speak up.

          1. Laura H*

            I second asking her. I’m not management- i work with retail teapots but there are times when being asked if I need help leaves me a little chafed/ the “I CAN do this myself, I don’t appreciate getting asked like this” flares up. But there are also times where my reaction is “Thank you so much!!” It never hurts to ask.

            Isn’t part of a manager’s job to delegate tasks?

            If yes, she probably should consider it. But asking would be nice- she might be overwhelmed slightly.

  52. ThatLibTech*

    It’s kind of cool, albeit terrifying, that I’m taking over doing a lot of stuff for my boss because she’s out of office (broke her elbow on vacation; I feel so bad for her :( and I know you’re not supposed to gift up but I’m going to see if my coworker and I can go in on making her some baked goods and maybe a $5 GC to Sbux).

    I’m doing blog posts, writing descriptions for events, I even was almost about to do a presentation for my library! (Which was cancelled because the prof said she was having difficulties getting students to show up for non assignment classes this late in the term)

    My boss brought up of her own accord she wonders if this will convince grandboss to hire on a third employee (I’m contract until the end of April)… which would be REALLY GREAT. I enjoy working here a lot!

    Now excuse me while I finish my guilty pleasure drink and go back to writing and hope what I’m writing sounds halfway decent! Lmao.

  53. Goya de la Mancha*

    Email Signatures:

    If you have one, do you use sign off an email with your name or leave it to the signature?

    EX:

    Thanks, Grace

    Grace Smith
    Head Llama Groomer
    yadda
    yadda

    Or

    Thanks,

    Grace Smith
    Head Llama Groomer
    yadda
    yadda

    1. Teapot librarian*

      It depends on context. If my point is to assert authority, I just use my signature. If it’s someone I work with more as a peer, I sign my name as well. But that’s because my signature says:
      Teapot Librarian
      Director, etc etc etc

      but I go by “Teapy” so I’ll write
      Thanks,
      Teapy

      Teapot Librarian
      Director, etc etc

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I do both – usually in my first email and/or if it’s an email to someone I don’t know, I just do “Thanks, [signature]”. If I’m replying or it’s someone I know, I do “Thanks, [name] [shortened signature]”. I guess using just the signature feels more formal and using my first name feels informal?

    4. selina kyle*

      If it’s within the office and it’s not the first email in the thread, I include signature. After that I just do name.
      For outside contacts, I keep signature in throughout personally.

    6. Ms. Meow*

      My email address is my full name but I go by a common nickname (think Jennifer/Jenny). My signature has my full name to match my email address, and I usually sign with my nickname (unless I’m feeling lazy and/or in a hurry). As in:

      Thanks,
      Jenny

      Jennifer Meow
      Tauntaun herder
      blah
      blah

    7. Murphy*

      Unless it’s really formal, I do your first example. It feels more personal, and lets people know that calling me by my first name is OK.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      Sign off woth my first name separate from the saved sig file.

      Thanks,

      Akcip

      Akcipitrokulo
      Chief cook & bottle washer
      Phone number
      Company specific stuff

    9. Someone else*

      My company has mandatory formatting of our signatures, which includes a horizontal line at the top. So 90% of my emails are:

      Thanks,
      Some
      ———————————
      Someone Else
      Head Llama Groomer
      yadda
      yadda

      Because otherwise, even with the signature there, it reads like not signing the email. But internally sometimes on short things where it doesn’t matter I will do:

      Thanks.
      ———————————
      Someone Else
      Head Llama Groomer
      yadda
      yadda

    10. Reed*

      At least in Google, it seems that the signature gets puts under the three dots (where you expand the field) – or maybe mine is accidentally set up that way. So I always sign my emails in addition to the signature, otherwise it can look like:

      Thanks,

      . . .

      1. Reed*

        I once had a colleague that always signed his emails “Dave R.” – I thought it was his email signature until I saw him write it out on an email to me, and I realized he had been writing it every time. Which I thought was kind of weird, considering we knew each other quite well and there was no other Dave in the company.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I use the first example because I sign with what I want them to call me. It cuts down on the “Dear Ms. NewReader” greetings.

    13. Handy nickname*

      My org has a prescribed signature format, and everyone I’ve seen just does

      Thanks,

      First Last
      Title
      Location
      Phone #

      Default email setting is to include the signature on the original email and not on replies unless you add it manually, and most people don’t change that setting.

      If I’m replying to people I don’t know well, I’ll put

      Thanks, First name

      in the reply, but I pretty much ignore names and signatures if I’m emailing people I talk to every day. It has my email on it, they know who it’s from ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    14. working abroad*

      My signature is still

      Jane Doe
      B.A. Film & Media Arts
      University of XXXXX, 2015
      email@gmail.com
      Cell xxx.xxx.xxxx

      I feel like I should change it since it’s been so long since graduation, but I don’t know what to put between freelancing gigs when I’m technically funemployed.

  54. The Mammal*

    In honor of Women’s History Month, my work is holding a donation drive for a religiously-affiliated homeless shelter. Without going into too much detail, I have a lot of reservations about donating to this particular organization–it’s not anything about their practices, it’s a personal connection. I’m not opposed to people donating to them in general, just in being asked to donate to this particular org at work.

    Is it worth expressing my reservations about the choice of a religious org to a higher-up? It’s too late to change the beneficiary of this drive, but maybe next time they’ll pick a secular group. I wouldn’t bring up my own personal connection, just say people might feel more comfortable donating to a group that isn’t religiously affiliated.

    1. selina kyle*

      I’d bring it up after the fact as a sort of debrief. If it’s too late this year, it could easily get lost in the shuffle/brushed off if you bring it up during. I do think it’s worth saying something – especially if you frame it as “it could look bad for these reasons”.

      1. HannahS*

        Yeah, I agree. If you do it now, I feel like the higher ups might just be frustrated in a “Well what do you want me to do?!” way, but if you bring it us as a debrief it’ll be taken more as neutral feedback.

      2. Thlayli*

        Agree. And rather than criticising and then putting the work on someone else, take the time yourself to find a secular organisation that provides similar services and propose them next year.

        Ive done a lot of charity fundraising and one of my biggest pet peeves is people criticising how you are raising money without being willing to do anything to help you find a better way.

    2. NonBelieber*

      I am not sure that you should say anything because the decision has been made and the ball seems to be rolling. If you disagree with the charity chosen in some way, you shouldn’t have to donate. Quietly abstain from donation and/or participation. After it is over, you might consider then requesting that your firm spread the love to another charity next year. Have some viable secular or non-religious charities as suggestions–never complain without having solutions to add. You might even suggest that they poll your office for other causes to choose next year. I am a non-believer working for a progressive but religious based employer and I don’t participate in certain events and drives for that reason. It is interesting that your employer chose a homeless shelter for Women’s History Month rather than an organization that directly empowers or assists women like a dedicated women and childrens’ shelter.

    3. Goya de la Mancha*

      I don’t think it would hurt to mention something after for next year, but too now that it’s started. But there is a reason for them going with said group? In our city (assuming they want to do local good deeds), there is only one women’s shelter for abuse victims and it is run by a religious group. So if they’re looking to stay local, then the group choice might not be all that large without making a rando-drive for some other group that doesn’t fit the “in honor of women’s history month” theme (ie: donation drive for the animal shelter – which I personally would LOVE, but doesn’t really fit).

  55. MariaMorena*

    In a post I read on this blog, the one about how to manage your boss, one of the bullet points is to always let him know when you’re unhappy. Right now, I’m having an issue with mine that I don’t know how to address: he is, by all accounts, sounding delusional, and giving me a lot more freedom in what I have to do than I’d like.

    This is how my situation looks like: we’re part of a multinational company that offers a system, and our regional office is abysmally small compared to any other office we have anywhere else – I’m talking less than ten people while anywhere else has at least 50 people or more. Our main issue right now is that although our system does everything about ten times better than the competition, it’s not enough to convince our local companies to do business with us, because the few things we don’t offer are usually big showstoppers and non-negotiable for the clients we offer our system to, and lo and behold, they’re all things our competition offers. The clients we have right now are unhappy and unsatisfied with our services, others either have announced that they’re leaving us or have already left us, and head office isn’t willing to invest in our market so we can start offering these showstoppers to potential clients. As you can see, it’s Bad with a capital B.

    For our development plan, my manager came up with the idea to focus on a different part of our local market; basically we’d need to break away from the global marketing strategy our company has, and work on a strategy that makes sense for our local market and is actually sellable and meets the needs of tons of potential clients. Sounds awesome, right? The problem is, he hasn’t shared this idea with our local director and sellers, and apparently has no plans to do so – when I questioned him, he said that he believes that this is a change that is “naturally” going to happen, as if our director and our sellers will magically have this idea and start going along with it. So our office is still following our old marketing strategy and struggling with it, while my manager schedules weekly meetings with his team – me and my coworker – to talk about how we must prepare for this marvelous, groundbreaking change that is certainly going to come sooner or later.

    I understand that we must all remain positive in the face of adversity, and that since we don’t have much work to do during the day we need to find something to work on that makes sense to our business, but this just boggles me and makes me question my manager’s current state of mind. He constantly tells me and my coworker to not worry because if push comes to shove, we will certainly be relocated within the company, despite the fact that the other local office our company has doesn’t have a single open vacancy, and he talks about how what we’re studying and practicing will be good for when we talk and deal with these mysterious prospective customers in the future. My main problem right now is he wants me to play around with a tool that I have never used before in my life, after getting a 30 minutes training on it by my coworker, who’s used said tool multiple times in the past and knows her way around it with her eyes closed. Because of my ADHD, if I just look and fiddle around with something without a set goal, and if I don’t keep practicing said tool in actual day-to-day tasks, I’ll most likely have to learn everything all over again when we actually get these new clients. Not to mention that just vaguely telling me to play with a system and tell me what I accomplished by Friday is really unhelpful to me, even a bit overwhelming; I’d describe it as if you put me in a fully-equipped kitchen, had a professional chef come in to cook and do several professional-looking stuff while I watch and try to absorb as much info as possible, and then left me alone in said kitchen with the sole instructions to learn how to use everything, just in case we eventually open the front doors of the restaurant to the public in the next five or so months, without guiding me to what I should actually do or what exactly I need to learn and knowing that the most I’ve done in any kitchen ever is cook instant noodles and fry eggs.

    I’m already looking for other jobs, but I can’t quit without having an offer, and my current situation isn’t so unbearable that I’m running for the hills quite yet, which means I still have a few months here. So, here’s my question: how can I tell my boss that I feel like practicing these tools without a set goal or a prospective customer is pointless and a waste of time? How do I tell him that I need more hands-on experience to be able to actually learn what he wants me to learn, and that if we don’t have the hands-on experience (since we don’t have any customers) I need a more stern and direct guidance on what exactly I need to test/fiddle/practice on this new tool he wants me to learn?

    1. Knottyferret*

      Have you tried asking for sample problems?
      You may also want to look at sample “solutions”, to see what kind of things the program can do.
      When I’m trying to learn a new system, the first thing I do is try to recreate someone else’s solution to a given problem. Then I try to come up with a unique solution to a common problem.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I am hands on learner. Is there a way we can make a fake model for me to practice on? I have a very visual learning style, I need to see the ball in play in order to absorb this training info.”

      OR
      “Boss, I don’t feel comfortable with [just watching tutorials, reading books, whatever). I really need to put my hands into the work to totally understand it. How well do you expect me to be acquainted with this tool before the customers start rolling in?” You may found out he is happy if you know where the on button is. You might want to find out this info before you get too concerned.

  56. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment check-in thread: How are things going for those working towards re-entering the workforce?

    My updates: My part-time temp job is going well and I’ve received good feedback. I received an e-mail auto-response to a permanent job I applied to saying that if I don’t hear back in a week (which is today) then they went with other candidates. I have to follow up with another permanent job (that I had a phone interview for weeks ago) Monday, which I was told to do if I didn’t hear back from them.

    1. MissingArizona*

      I redid my resume, put together a general cover letter, and found the information for spouse preference hiring. Next week I should get the preferred hiring letter, but it could take longer. Now I just need to get my references in order.

    2. Also anon for this*

      That’s great! I hope the temp job lasts until you get something permanent.

      This week I heard from a recruiter who’d contacted me before with an unspecified but local job opportunity. I gave my updated details but am still waiting to hear. A friend put my resume in with their company, still waiting to hear. Other applications have disappeared into the ether. Meanwhile I’m keeping myself busy with some low level volunteering and crafts.

    3. AudreyParker*

      I hate to say “terrible,” but… Potential contract position seems to have fallen through – former coworker approached me talking about how much help they needed, and they could bring me in ASAP, then nada, even after multiple low key follow ups. I have no idea what to even apply for at this point, so am just doing the pointless “scanning job boards” thing and trying to tweak resume and LinkedIn for the 800th time. Been considering approaching temp agencies, but given the types of things I see them post online, not sure that’s a great use of my time – on the one hand, I’m well beyond entry-level, but since my experience is very Jack of All Trades, it doesn’t seem to count for much. So, yeah, discouraged. Congrats on getting some traction!

    4. Hakuna Moscato*

      Not great, unfortunately. Applications seem to go into a black hole, and I do the never-ending “scan job boards” to no avail (but if I wanted to be a car salesperson, there postings out the wazoo for that). It’s all a bit demoralizing, really.

      But congrats on your temp job! And fingers crossed that you get a permanent position soon.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I had a phone screening interview that didn’t go very well for a lower-level H.R. job. Although the job announcement didn’t mention it, the interviewer seemed fixated on my not having payroll experience. She said she’d get back to me. Yeah, right.

      Lately, I’ve been feeling a tinge of anxiety about applying for jobs and I’ve also been getting a bit annoyed at all the hoops they make you jump through to fill out an online application.

      My printer died, but I found the Consumer Reports magazine top-rated all-in-one for sale with 33% off at my local Target so I bought it. Now I have to get it set up. (My little weekend project.)

  57. Going a little more anon than usual for this*

    So we got last year’s 360 reviews back (where anyone can provide feedback on anyone else in the organization) and one comment I received is really bothering me. For context, I am a senior manager and run a division at my firm and have a few direct reports and several folks under those direct reports. I am female and in my 30’s. Most of my team is female with only a few men (and I kind of sense that that the person who left this report is a report who is male and twice my age and may be bitter I am managing him, but that’s another story).

    Essentially the coworker provided feedback that they felt I was cold and needed to work on my interpersonal skills as I never talk to them about their life outside work and only discuss status of current projects. The comment also said that I never praise their work.

    I pride myself on having a very supportive team and often build personal relationships with my staff, but only if they want to talk about their lives beyond work; I feel inappropriate starting that conversation unprompted (for instance I have one supervisee who is pregnant right now and after she told me that, we’ve been talking more about adjusting to life post-maternity leave, finding childcare, etc. but I would never have brought that up if she didn’t want to talk about it!). It’s true that I don’t know the relationship statuses or much about the outside-work lives of some of my team, but I don’t feel it’s my place to ask if they haven’t brought that information up themselves.

    On the praise thing, I always follow the sandwich method of giving feedback but don’t go above and beyond to laud day-to-day work unless someone has truly gone above and beyond.

    Perhaps I am cold, but need some anonymous ATM feedback on this…

    1. Just Peachy*

      I think there is a happy medium between not talking at ALL about outside of work things, and being too personal.

      Sometimes on Monday morning, my supervisor immediately starts asking me about projects, requests my help with something, etc. and NEVER says “how was your weekend?” I don’t want to sit and chat with him for an hour about every little thing I did, but it’d certainly be nice for him to show that he does value his employees’ lives outside of work. Just a simple, “any fun plans for the weekend?” is nice to hear, too. That way, you’re leaving in open to them to share how much they want to, without being pushy (but also showing that you care about them as people, not just workers).

      1. Close Bracket*

        lol, this is so individual. When my bosses and coworkers ask me my weekend plans, I just want to tell them “mind your own business.” :-)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She could go with, “How was your drive in this morning?”, if the weather is bad. Or if they have a picture of a dog on their desk, she could ask the dog’s name. There are plenty of things that come up, such as if a person leaves early to get work done on their car, the next day OP could ask how the car is doing now.

    2. Earthwalker*

      It might be just the usual problem women have, that they’re either perceived as too nice to manage well, or leaderly but not feminine enough to match someone’s idea of how women should be, with no sweet spot in between. The comment might say more about its author than about you.

    3. Murphy*

      I’m not saying that it’s not a gender thing because it could be, but I kind of experience this with my boss, who is male. We never talk about anything personal, ever. When I have to use a sick day because my daughter is sick, it feels weird to tell him that. That’s how little we talk about anything personal. It’s not really problem really and I wouldn’t describe him as cold, but the occasional “How was your weekend?” or “How’s the baby?” wouldn’t be amiss.

    4. LCL*

      The compliment sandwich concept is not beloved everywhere, which I was surprised to find out and I learned by reading AAM. It’s almost another blue collar-white collar divide. I was taught and mentored that the compliment sandwich is the proper and best way to do things, as long as the fault finding part was done professionally. People from a more white collar background can find it extremely condescending and will tell you not to use it.

      The interpersonal skills one is tricky because many times the older more traditional people DON’T want you to ask about their personal lives, but they want you to be more personable and warmer and all that crap. I found out reading and learning about our local sports teams to the point of being able to hold a conversation and express an opinion goes a long way with this type of person. If not sports teams, then whatever is the popular local outdoor recreation.

      Same with lauding day to day work, some people love it and some find it condescending. You have to find out who prefers which way, which is easier said than done. I have had good success with, when I praise someone’s day to day performance, I talk about other persons in the group doing similar things. Our group has rotating assignments, so I have to be careful I don’t praise someone for doing someone and ignore someone else for doing the exact same thing, unless that employee wants to be ignored. And some do want to be ignored.

    5. As Close As Breakfast*

      I get where you’re coming from. One thing (kind of not related to your actual question) that jumped out at me though, is that you don’t start personal conversations. The thing is, I totally agree with you, but it could cause issues and may even have something to do with the feedback you got. I’m not good at talking about myself and would be the person that never brought up anything outside of work with you. And that would be totally fine and I wouldn’t think anything of it. Unless I learned of, or experienced first hand, you having these types of conversations with others. Because I wouldn’t know that you were only doing it because my peer had introduced it and you then felt comfortable talking to them about it. I would just see that you were having more friendly interactions with other people than I ever had with you, and I would probably start worrying that you didn’t like me or someone might think that the other employees were your favorites or something. The perception of being more open and ‘friendly’ with some employees, however well-intentioned, is maybe something to keep in mind.

    6. Wanna-Alp*

      With regards to the praise, I am not appreciative of my own boss’ approach to this.

      I don’ t feel like I need to be lauded, but I don’t get anything in the way of positive feedback. Some appreciation every once in a while would be good, but I don’t get that. I usually get positive feedback months or years later, via a very indirect route (examples: my boss gives me more responsibility, or I overhear a positive assessment of my work when my boss was discussing it with a co-worker). If I deliver something, I don’t even get appreciation, not even just a “Thanks!”.

      You sound like you aren’t like that. But it is possible that day-to-day, you might not be saying anything positive to your reports about their work. My own takeaway is that little positive gestures can go a long way too. Could be comments of appreciation, it could just be a smidgen of enthusiasm that they told you that they finished the thing already. It doesn’t have to be much, but don’t let the positive vibes be a desert on a day-to-day basis, either.

      I could be way off-base here, but I hope it gives you something to check against.

  58. ginkgo*

    Negotiation! Talk to me about it. This topic is on my mind because A) I’m job hunting, B), I just read the book “Women Don’t Ask,” and C) I just had a very interesting discussion with some former coworkers.

    At my old workplace, I was an Assistant Teapot Maker making 43k. An Associate Teapot Maker is a small step up from that, whereas a Teapot Maker is generally recognized to be a much bigger step up since at that point you’re handling all the teapot making for your department (and it’s hard to move up into that position unless someone leaves). I met up with a former coworker (a Teapot Maker) who told me that when my old boss (also a Teapot Maker) was hiring my replacement, she discovered that the top of the range for an Associate Teapot Maker was $57k – which was more than both my boss and my other coworker were making. As a result, they both asked for raises and got them, putting my boss closer to $67k. (The company is experiencing a ton of turnover recently, which helped them make their case – my theory is that this is the year people in the teapot industry finally got fed up with trying to survive in our high COL city.) I had assumed that I would top out at, I don’t know, $48k as an associate and then wait anywhere from 3 to 5 years for the chance to be promoted to Teapot Maker and make perhaps $55k, which is why I left. I don’t regret leaving exactly (I’m up for some positions now that would pay more than my old boss’s corrected salary, without having to wait years to get it), but I’m definitely surprised and feel like it would have been in the company’s best interest not to underpay people and have this turnover issue. I guess they’re learning that now.

    As for the book, it went over a lot of reasons why women have a hard time negotiating that I really related to – we assume there’s less to go around (check, see above), we feel that we don’t really “deserve” something unless it’s offered to us without asking (check), we assume that all parties are playing fair (check). I am aware that women are penalized for negotiating more heavily than men are (and the book goes into that quite a bit), but I think there’s a lot more going on. It’s made me question some of the standard advice here (like that asking for too big of a raise will make you look out of touch, or not asking for more than the price you might have named earlier in the interview process) – not because I think it’s bad advice per se, but I think reading that advice through the lens of all the other unconscious beliefs I have about negotiating has led me to be way too conservative in the past!

    Anyway, I’d love to hear whether you all have negotiated a raise or your salary at a new job, and how it went. I actually never have, but I’m determined not to fall into the same trap next time!

    1. grace*

      Just chiming in to say that I actually just started a book club at my office with this book :-) Hopefully there’ll be good information from it over the next few months!

    2. Tea*

      I recently negotiated a pretty hefty salary bump in a semi risky situation, my first real salary negotiation. I was NERVOUS AS HECK, couldn’t sleep while they were thinking it over, sweaty palms, sweaty face, the whole enchilada, but it worked– I got about 80% of what I was asking for, or a 8% bump.

      A little background:
      – I was brought into a new company after a merger. My previous boss had promised me a salary bump of X amount, and then shortly after sold the company without telling them about the raise.
      – I was with previous company for about 5 years, and new company for about 4 months when I requested a raise, so I had only been working there for about 4 months.
      – I knew they wanted to keep me within the company if possible, and that I had some specialized knowledge they were interested in.
      – During negotiations, I was told that I was already making the most among the folks in my same role, so it would be tough to offer me more.

      What worked for me while negotiating:
      – I talked about what I liked about working here and how I’d like to stay and grow with the firm. The subtext for any employment negotiation, of course, is “If we can’t come to an agreement, maybe I’ll leave.” But I tried to set the tone as “I want to stay, I want to be successful here, I know you want me to stay and be successful, so let’s figure out how we can make that happen.”

      – I asked for about a 10% raise, which in retrospect was probably a lot, and while they were thinking it over I felt a lot of doubt about whether I was asking too much, if they were going to think of me afterward as an ‘entitled millennial’, if I was being unrealistic and showing that I was out of touch with business norms. But after I put the numbers out there, I shut up. I didn’t dicker myself down, I didn’t say “Well, I’d be happy with [smaller amount]” even though a big part of me wanted to.

      – When they expressed some concerns about the amount I was proposing in relation to my role and the short time I had been with them, my response was, “I hear what you’re saying, and I understand that I’m hitting the upper limit for the role I’m in. But I’d like to stay and grow with this company, and I want to take on further responsibilities, and I want to expand this role. If it doesn’t make sense to move forward with a pay increase now, since we’ve only been working together for a few months, can we discuss what steps we could take for me to bring more value to my role in the company?”

      – I put a lot of thought into what I knew about the company and what directions they wanted to expand in and wrote out a whole shpeal about how my experiences could be used to enhance and compliment that and what new value I could bring. Then I polished the hell out of it so that it could read like a speech. I had the document open while we were talking (on the phone) and frequently referred back to it, so I could be my best and most eloquent self. All in all, I probably spent a good 2-3 hours prepping for the negotiation, all of which was well worth it.

      What would not have worked/didn’t work:
      – I brought up the initial salary bump in the context of “My previous boss promised me X,” and was told, “Well, he’s no longer here and he didn’t mention it, so that’s really a moot point.” I didn’t press the matter further, because it was true.

      – The person I was speaking with said something along the lines of: “Can you show me how your past experience matches the salary you’re asking for? I see you have a bachelor’s degree, but…” I hadn’t brought up my educational background at all, but it sounds like she may have had people who leaned heavily on that to try and negotiate, without much success.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Both times I have successfully negotiated a substantial pay increase have been with women bosses. In one case, I had my starting rate increased by 25%. My boss knew I had practical experience but had missed the fact I had a degree. Once I mentioned the degree my offer jumped. I don’t think it was the degree alone.

      In the second case, I was at the job a while. I did activities a though f that were above and beyond the call of duty.
      My boss was able to triple my pay. NOW. Before you get excited, remember if I am making one cent an hour, triple that means I am making three cents an hour. Since this was such a huge increase, I ignored the fact that it was still 3 cents an hour. And I can say that I reeeally put my all into the job at the start, this was because there were projects in process. The projects were finite, so I knew they would not be part of my regular job. However, the boss realized that I could do x, y and z which did become part of my regular job.

  59. GoingAnon*

    Today I learned that I’m being paid significantly less than my male colleagues who have the same work experience and education that I have. This is something I’ve suspected for awhile, but I just got concrete proof of it this morning.

    The problem is that I can’t leave this job until next year for life-reasons, and I’m worried that if I try to bring this to anyone’s attention I’ll either be ignored or fired. So I have this information but I don’t know what I can actually do about it.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’m sorry, this sucks. I suspect the same thing but haven’t proved it. Did they start at the same time as you? Were you promoted internally, while they were hired externally (which is what happened to me – so prior salaries were used against us). Perhaps you can request a review of salaries by gender across the organization, which I’ve seen done in a prior workplace, which resulted in a lot of adjustments. Do you have an okay relationship with HR or someone very senior?

      1. GoingAnon*

        No HR. It’s a small company and I report directly to one of the owners, who is the person who hired me.

        Both myself and the coworkers whose salaries I’ve confirmed were external hires. One was hired at the same as me with the same work experience and education. His initial offer from the company was 20% higher than my offer. Another coworker was hired last summer, two years after I was hired. I had three raises during that time and his original offer (again, same work experience and education as when I was hired) is exactly the same as what I’m making now.

        I’m the only female technician in the company (including the bosses/owners there’s only about 12 of us, of which only 8 are full-time). So a company-wide review of salaries wouldn’t help because I know my boss would come up with some justification for why my salary is lower.

        Except I KNOW the justification would be bullsh*t, because I’ve always had outstanding reviews and I have gotten 3 raises in roughly two years. But those raises still don’t bring my salary equal to what others at my level are making in the company.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeahhh – I’d start job searching, assuming any personal issues could be overcome with enough money. Hopefully you now know the market rate for what you do and you know you’re not getting it.

    2. Tired*

      Are you in the US? While the odds of being ignored may be high depending on your company, I’m pretty sure that firing you for pointing out that your male college makes more than you would be illegal.

      1. Close Bracket*

        They could fire her for something else, and they can afford good enough lawyers to defend it.

        1. Observer*

          They would still lose, in all likelihood.

          If you want to do this document – if you run into trouble, the EEOC loves retaliation claims.

  60. Teapot librarian*

    Well, I’ve finally started working on a PIP for my Hoarder Employee. Yesterday I went through all of my open thread comments and you, the amazing AAM commentariat, have been recommending this action for many many months. The straw that broke the camel’s back was not yesterday’s conference call that he didn’t join and came to my office 50 minutes late for–I’d already opened the PIP form–but that definitely didn’t help his cause. Nor did his “I got sidetracked” excuse.
    Writing the PIP is proving to be slightly difficult; I’m trying to figure out what issue to focus on so that it doesn’t seem like I’m just dumping on him but is actually actionable/implementable and has clear metrics for reviewing whether he’s met the goals or not. Any advice, given that the overarching issue is insubordination (which is a discipline issue, not a performance issue) which manifests in poor communication, weak work product, and lack of timeliness (both to meetings and in meeting deadlines)?

    1. Hope*

      Well, the timeliness issue is definitely something with clear metrics. Focus on that and the other products of the insubordination, I guess?

    2. fposte*

      I’m not seeing why the insubordination isn’t a performance issue too. Can’t you just call it responsiveness to direction and feedback?

      1. Teapot librarian*

        The final straw was a few weeks ago when he scoffed at me. I asked him for something and he kind of laugh-snorted because of how ridiculous he thought the request was. I just hadn’t had time since then to sit and focus. In the interim he also skipped a staff meeting.

        1. Where's my coffee?*

          Do you have to do the PIP? Can you issue corrective action or termination instead? In my experience, PIPs can work ok for some issues, but repeated failure to follow a leader’s direction and respond in an appropriate time, place and manner is a tough one to address that way.

          1. Teapot librarian*

            I think it’s easier to manage issues through a performance approach than through a discipline approach. (Discipline is progressive so you have to go through multiple steps; a PIP if he doesn’t meet the improvement requirements in 30 days, he could be terminated. Or I could give him longer, but there isn’t a requirement to offer multiple opportunities.)
            Though I did issue a reprimand to this same employee for insubordination a while back, so a discipline approach isn’t wholly inappropriate.

            1. Where's my coffee?*

              I also dislike mandated progressive discipline. I’m not going to warn a grown ass adult six times that they need to follow my direction. Luckily, my work environments have never required progressive discipline, and the level of corrective action is at manager discretion.

    4. Argh!*

      Have you prepared for this by escalating from verbal to written warnings? If not, the written warning may be the next step.

      The more performance-oriented the PIP, the better. He’s less likely to take it personally, and you have better standing if things don’t improve.

      The standard-ish format is [behavior that has adverse impact on work product, with documented examples] must improve by [1-3 months] with check-ins [weekly, biweekly or certain dates] to this standard [no more than x number of mess-ups or some other standard].

      Being a hoarder per se isn’t a problem unless there are consequences, like losing documents, making a bad impression on clients, attracting roaches etc.

      1. fposte*

        IIRC, it’s not so much that he’s that kind of hoarder as he’s a library resources hoarder; he blocks use of resources.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Basically you are asking him to do what everyone else already does:
      timely and accurate communication
      strong work product
      be promptly on time for ALL meetings
      meet all deadlines appropriately

      Having seen this one play out, be ready for this:

      “I could not find my glasses. I noticed I had left the glasses case in the car last night. I was looking under my car seat for my glasses when I found Report A which was due last week. Thinking quickly I grabbed Report A and brought it in the office. I made copies and put them in everyone’s mail box. But I still could not find my glasses, so I decided to call my wife/doctor’s office I went to yesterday/ the mail man. None of them have seen my glasses but my wife mentioned that our home owner’s insurance was late. So I thought I better transfer money so she can write a check. When I went to my account online, I realized I was overdrawn, so I called the bank. I was late to the meeting because I had to call my bank.”

      At this point you say, “None of this is an appropriate reason for being late for a meeting. You need to do as everyone else here is doing. You must be on time for all meetings. Failure to be on time will be duly noted in your performance improvement review.” In other words get your go-to sentences in order and use these sentences. Don’t get caught up in his chaos.

  61. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Removed because this is the work thread (please save non-work posts for the weekend thread).

  62. baconeggandcheeseplease*

    Today’s reference question reminded me of another reference question I have…

    The last company I worked for went through a huge structuring/merge and my managers shifted departments/may have just left, and I’m not sure if the contact info I have for them is correct (the contact info that’s usually required on applications). If I get to the reference stage in the interview process and they want to call my managers in addition to my reference list… is not being able to track them down something for me to worry about? Do I need to sit down and figure out the contact info for all of my past managers? Or just my last few? Or is that overall unnecessary?

    2. Reba*

      If they are still with the company, I would think providing a general contact for the company would be fine–someone will direct a reference checker to the person.

      If I understand you, it’s potentially people off your provided reference list. In that case, no, I don’t think you’re on the hook for providing ways to reach them.

      Good luck with your search.

      1. baconeggandcheeseplease*

        Yes, that’s correct! I feel like a lot of applications ask for the standard supervisor info and whether they can contact or not, and it probably isn’t a big deal if I don’t have their current info for whatever reason but sometimes I get hung up on this kind of stuff, so thanks!

  63. Lilo*

    Ad agency folks – are general resume submissions effective? Im looking to relocate and I see on every website something along the lines of “don’t see a position that fits your qualifications? submit your resume anyway and we’ll keep it for future considerations”. As an ad agency, I can’t see them having a shortage of applications for any position, but this seems to be a recurring thing on every site i’ve looked at. Is this worth submitting to, if I craft an individual message to go along with each resume submission?

    1. Mad Woman*

      It honestly depends. My manager used to keep a stack of resumes to go through on her desk that were abandoned when we were slow and called when we were OMG SO BUSY and needed to hire.

      I would say that it’s important you know exactly what role or at least department you’d want to be in at the agency. They won’t look kindly to “I’ll do whatever needs doing/I could do creative or accounts, whatever you have open.” You should know where your strengths lie and what department would fit you best. You could declare that in your message or resume, like “I’m an account planner and strategist with a background in research, writing and serving consumer brands.”

    2. Jules the First*

      Not an ad agency, but creative industry with no shortage of applications (we got 12,000 qualified applicants last year and hired a little less than 200 people)…

      We absolutely look at the people who send in a resume generally, provided that you make it very clear in your covering note why you want to work with us (not just ’cause we’re awesome, please….) and exactly what shaped hole you fill best. Sometimes we use those applications to fill jobs we intended to post but haven’t got around to yet; sometimes we have positions floating around waiting for the right you-shaped person that we never post because the you-shaped person is so very rare; sometimes we never intended to post the job because we want the job-holder to be irritatingly proactive; and sometimes we’re just so impressed that we hire someone, not because we had a job to fill but because we think you’re incredibly talented and we don’t want to risk you working for one of our competitors (rare, but it happens).

  64. Lil Fidget*

    I have to chuckle when I see that University of Phoenix ad come up on this page, considering that Alison clearly stated that she thought someone with a degree from there was actively hurting their job search. (I do understand of course that Alison doesn’t pick the ads that appear on the page). Still ad guys – probably not your ideal market.

    1. Someone else*

      There’s a decent chance it’s coming up because they’ve been discussed on the site.

  65. eplawyer*

    Just wanted to let you know Alison that as part of my law practice (family law), I get lots of people who need to find jobs. I send them here for GOOD advice on cover letters, resumes and interviewing.

  66. RarePoster*

    All, I have a really great star performer (Bob) on my team. We’re coming out of a busy period, so it’s natural to slow down for a little bit to recover. Bob also has some personal issues I’m aware of.

    Taking all of that into consideration, I’m a little concerned about Bob’s attitude and performance. Coming in late, having to be prompted to take on assignments, forgetting about things in queue, etc. Very out of character for him. I told him to take a few days off if needed to regroup and refresh in light of the personal stuff.

    Another factor is we had a team members leave (Joe). A third team member, Sam, and Joe were close in a slightly toxic under-performing way. I’m a little worried that our remaining team member is rubbing off on Bob and dragging him down.

    Since our busy period really ended about 2 weeks ago, on top of the personal issues, I’m inclined to give Bob a little bit more time to see if he self-corrects. I also think it can be really sh**ty to kick someone while there down, plus it can only compound issues. At what point should I say something and what do I say?

    1. Close Bracket*

      You should say something now. Never let problems accumulate unaddressed. To mitigate bringing him down, take a problem-solving approach rather than a punitive approach with him. Leave Joe out of it.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I am Bob! I’m afraid my boss is going to bring it up to me. I used to be great, lately I’m kind of a mess. In my case, I’m super burned out and sick of everything. I feel like I’m doing the minimum to get by. Yes, other employees toxicity could be bringing him down too. I think you should address it directly with Bob and ask what you can do – does he need some time off? What would help him feel good about the workplace again? Ironically, I’m avoiding my manager so we don’t have to have this talk and hoping he doesn’t notice my slips – but I know this is what it would take to get us back in alignment.

    3. Reba*

      Yes, tell him what you’re seeing, what changes he needs to make, and ask him what would help him get there! It can be a supportive conversation, not kicking when he’s down!

      If I’ve understood, you suggested time off but he hasn’t taken it?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah Bob is probably hoping you haven’t noticed or that it’s not that big of a deal, so it’s nice to clue him in that you have and it is.

    4. Phoenix Programmer*

      Hi there! Top performer here. I have pulled Bob’s before too coming in late and missing some pieces. Why? Burnout.

      If you want to retain Bob here is what I recommend.

      1) reevaluate what your expectations for the role are. Then compare Bob to that. My guess is Bob will still come off as stellar. Or at least very good. A trap managers fall into that lead to losing star performers is holding them to a higher standard.

      2. Recognize pre personal event Bob may never come back. My dad died this year. I will never perform as well as I did before his death. That’s normal – I revaluated how much I was putting into work and found it way too much. Very common. If you were my manger and started to resent my new 98% performance since I use to be 135% performer especially while tolerating 70% performers I would leave.

      3. Missing tasks – look at his workload and talk to him. He may need less work and again may never get back to that work load.

      4. Late – does it matter? If not let it go.

      5. Taking time. It’s fine to say to take time but look at what may be keeping Bob from actually taking time. I know I don’t like taking time off because I am the only one who can do A B and C. I come back to a mess each time. If Bob has stuff like that help him take time by learning those processes to give him a real break.

      3. Chaordic One*

        These are very good suggestions, Phoenix Programmer. The only thing that I would add is that even though you might tell Bob that he can take some time off or slow down a bit, he might be reluctant to do so. Even though you think things are fine, he might well be getting more requests for assistance from other departments than you are aware of.

      4. Rare Poster*

        Thanks this is good advice. Some of it is Bob was also promoted, so it is just an awkward spot. Definitely need to look at #5.

        Thanks to everyone for the tips. I will have a convo and make sure it’s supportive.

  67. HigherEdPerson*

    Our admin retired, and my org cut the position for the next fiscal year. They did, however, let us hire a temp to finish out the semester (I work at a university). The first temp started, and we put a lot of time into training her. She was doing a good job, seemed to fit in just fine, and then suddenly, the temp agency tells me she’s leaving for a new job, and is only giving us a week’s notice (which she’ll be out for half that week due to meetings). Okay, what a PITA, but the agency assures me it happens. They said it’s normal, and they always assume their temps are looking while working. I totally get that full-time work trumps temp work. So they hire us a new one, with a few days cross-over for training.
    When I come back into the office, I hear from staff that the temp said she’s leaving due to sick family members. But the agency was the one who said “She told us she found a new job.” When I asked her about her new job, she said “What new job? I’m going to take care of my parents.”
    So, either the temp lied or the agency lied. I don’t think I’m going to do anything about it b/c there doesn’t seem to be a point to bringing it up again, but I’m curious as to how you would have handled it. This is the temp agency that HR uses for our entire university, so if they are the ones that lied, that’s a big deal. But if it’s just her, I don’t really feel a need to hash it out b/c she’s gone.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Ask her what the conversation with the temp agency was. Tell her that they are the ones who informed you that she was leaving for a new job. If they lied, she probably wants to know that.

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        I did, but she was very closed off about the whole thing. I said something like “Really? They told me you got a new job.” She glared at me and said “Nope.”

        And she’s gone now, so I can’t follow up with her.

    2. fposte*

      Tbh I don’t think I’d care much; even if the agency gave you the wrong information, I don’t know that it’s a lie and even if it was it might be to preserve their employees’ privacy about family matters. There’s not much difference between the two reasons for leaving from my standpoint.

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        That’s kind of what I’m thinking at this point. She left, I wished her the best of luck, so it is what it is. Part of me hopes that it’s a new job so that it would mean she doesn’t have a sick family member.

      2. Thlayli*

        I was thinking this. They didn’t tell you because they didn’t want to breach her privacy.

        Also possible someone got their wires crossed in the agency and they got her mixed up with someone else or something.

        I think both those possibilities are more likely than the possibility that she was lying.

  68. Fenchurch*

    It’s been nearly 6 months in my new position and… it isn’t getting better. If anything, it is getting worse. They have me involved in the over-arching shaping of my role while also expecting me to process a lot of data entry for multiple clients. I’m working two very different jobs and trying to squeeze them both into 8 hour days.

    Also the hierarchy is impossible to navigate since it’s a project role. I have 5 different people that I report to for different things and they get upset if I forget who to go to for one issue or another. It sounded like such a great opportunity 6 months ago, but I’m borderline jumping out of my skin to find a new role.

    It may be tough to leave for an internal position again as I’m on a team of 2 and leaving would put them in a very difficult spot. But I don’t see this getting any better any time soon.

    Sorry for the rant.

  69. Close Bracket*

    I applied for a position A, a mid career individual contributor position . The company thought my resume was more appropriate to a senior position, and today in about six hours I have a phone interview for position B, a senior individual contributor position in the same directorate. Now, position A was a bit of a stretch. I have some familiarity with the subject matter, but no experience. I met maybe 30% of the required qualifications. I meet 0% of the required qualifications for position B. Literally. I have the wrong degree, No experience, and none of the specific technical skills. Of the desired qualifications, the only ones I have are the generic “ability to work in a team” and ability to meet deadlines” type of qualifications. I have no idea why they want to interview me. Is it fair for me to bring this up in the interview? Companies typically want to know why a candidate wants to work at their company and why the candidate thinks they are qualified for that position. Is it kosher for a candidate to ask the same of the company? If so, what would be some wording that I could use?
    My interview is this afternoon, at 1 o’clock EST.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Update:
      I did not ask. It turned out that my interviewer was also baffled as to why my resume had reached him, and he brought it up. When he told me about the specifics of his particular group, it turned out that there was a connection there.
      It’s funny to me because it’s a really tenuous connection. Say, I used to work in teapot manufacture, and his group is part of teapot design. It’s not the first time that someone has seen teapots on my resume and said, “Let’s assign her!” And I’m like, um, sure teapots is there, but design is not there, function is not there, and operation is not there, but I’ll do this, why not.

  70. Lillian Gilbreth*

    Question for other young women on this board: how do you balance trying not to get labelled/saddled with “women’s work” with being a good office citizen?

    I feel like I am always the one wiping coffee drips off the counter, emptying the sink drain trap, and generally tidying in the kitchen because I notice these things. I work with mostly young guys (I am also young) and I feel like they just don’t see spills, or don’t care (this is a generalization, but bear with me. It’s been true in my experience.) I want to be a good person and clean up when I see fit, but I don’t want a reputation since it is not my job. Any ideas?

    1. Close Bracket*

      I would just stop doing those things. Yes, it would mean tolerating a level of mess that is beyond your standards. But the fact is that if you do it, they have no motivation to step up.

      1. Jennifer*

        Though alternately, they just don’t care at all and it will never get cleaned up.

        If something bothers you, you’re going to end up doing it, I think. Especially if everyone else does not care at all.

        1. Close Bracket*

          That’s where tolerating a level of mess that is beyond one’s standards comes in. :-)

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Absolutely stop doing these things – tell yourself you’re “being the change.” It’s one thing if you’re TASKED with doing the note-taking / hand-holding tasks (this is a real thing that happens), but in your case, you are undertaking them yourself. Someone in leadership would see the spills and think – “I need to make a note to the janitorial service about that,” or “I need to increase the budget for a cleaning lady,” but they would never pick up a rag and start cleaning, because that’s not what they’re being paid for.

    3. BadPlanning*

      Just stop doing it. Yes, it will be gross. Just clean up your mess. The best you can hope for is that some people will see you cleaning up your coffee drip and might do the same.

    4. CheeryO*

      Nooo, please stop doing that. If you cause a mess, clean it up, obviously, and do your own dishes and so forth, but it’s not your job to clean the kitchen. In general, I try to gauge what the rest of my department does in terms of bringing in treats, cleaning, etc. and only do that much myself. If it’s zero, then you should also be at zero or close to it.

    5. CatCat*

      Just stop doing it. Being a good office citizen involves cleaning up after yourself, not after others.

      If anyone brings up how untidy things are getting, just say, “I always clean up after myself.”

    6. SuzyOfficeMaker*

      Agree, just stop doing these things. You should not be cleaning up after other adults. Clean up after yourself only. If it gets bad enough, someone in management will probably address it because it really sucks to go to heat up your food with exploded soup and cheese all over the inside of the microwave.

    8. Gollum*

      stop doing it. yes, I know it may get groddy but if you’re the only female and you’re the one who is always cleaning, it will impact your optics. trust me.

    9. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I do it only for messes I make myself.

      For example — oh, I dripped coffee? Okay, I wipe it up. Bob dripped coffee? Not my problem.

    10. Rookie Manager*

      Just to chime in with everyone else, don’t do it. If you keep doing this cleaning it will be seen as part of your role instead of what you are actually employed to do. This will harm your progreasion and opportunities in the organisation.

    11. Ann O.*

      Does your office space not have facilities?

      Some of kitchen clean up I would do and think is no big deal to do or for your to keep doing (like wiping coffee drips) because it takes 2 seconds and is for yourself as much as anyone else. But emptying the sink drain trap definitely seems above and beyond and general tidying probably is, too. I would expect facilities or janitorial to be doing that.

    12. Thlayli*

      What I do is either just do the stuff I wanted and/or do one small thing each time.

      So for example each time I go to the kitchen I would do my own dishes or whatever and then wash one additional spoon, wipe up one small spill, or something. That way I’m not making a mess, I’m helping to clean up the mess so I feel good, but I’m not doing it all so I don’t feel taken advantage of.

      In my last office no one ever use to empty the (small) dishwasher, so I used to do it in the mornings while waiting for kettle to boil. But this was because:
      1 I actually enjoyed it – it was a mindless physical task that helped wake me up in the morning and made me feel like I’d achieved a little something to start the day off right
      2 the tearoom was enclosed so no one else even knew I did this unless I told them or they walked in
      3 I am a contractor so clients already think of me as being on the bottom of the hierarchy, and I’m pretty well established as being high up in the heirarchy of my own company, so I don’t think it would affect my standing (as opposed to being a junior female engineer among male peers at my own level – it’s more important to avoid this at an early stage of career)
      4 I could stop if someone walked in and pretend I was just doing my own bit of work.
      5 it didn’t actually take much time out of my day Since I had to wait for kettle to boil anyway.

  71. Julianne*

    Should you tell a coworker that another coworker (who does not currently, and will never, supervise or evaluate the other’s work) said that they are bad at their job? (Not: “Alicia is not good at/needs improvement in job functions X and Y,” but rather, “Alicia is bad at her job.”)

    1. Close Bracket*

      I wouldn’t. I would stick with pushing back at the person bad mouthing Alicia by saying things like “what do you mean by that? I’ve never had a problem with her.”

    2. Lil Fidget*

      No, I’m not sure what the point of that would be other than stirring up drama. If there’s some specific task that Alicia needs to do better on to work better with a colleague, that would be constructive, but just that so and so doesn’t like her – not constructive.

    4. CheeryO*

      The only time that I could ever see it being an okay idea is if you have a newer coworker who does the same tasks as Alicia – it might be helpful to point out that she shouldn’t necessarily use her work as an exact template. But I would still make it about the work, not about Alicia, and I would never use the words “Alicia is bad at her job.”

    6. Julianne*

      Thanks everyone! My gut reaction was to not share the information with Alicia for the reasons mentioned (namely, that it’s not actionable feedback and thus would most likely lead to drama, not positive changes). I barely work with Alicia – we both focus on chocolate teapots in our work, but there is no overlap beyond that in our duties – so I actually don’t know for sure what her job performance is like. I tried to push back/deflect/change the subject during the conversation, but the criticizer was pretty relentless. I ended up having to physically leave the space to end the conversation (which was weird because it was MY office).

  72. Bigglesworth*

    Happy news today!!! I’ve been hunting for an internship for my 1L summer. Well, instead of studying, I spent a recent Saturday observing my husband’s first tabletop gaming tournament. Come to find out, one of his friends is senior general counsel at a federal agency. We talked for a bit, they gave me their card, and said they’d let me know if there was any last-minute openings. I wasn’t expecting anything of it for this summer, but one of the legal interns in a related office backed out for a better offer. My husband’s gaming friend called me up the day they found out and said I should to submit an application (resume, cover letter, and transcript) immediately. I interviewed yesterday morning and was offered the internship via email in the afternoon! Geeky networking for the win!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you!!!! I’m super pumped!!! The more my interviewers explained the purpose behind the division and the training program for the interns, the more excited I got. I take that as a good sign!

    3. Teapot librarian*

      One of my big tasks for today is writing a position description for a 1L intern. I’m glad you got a position!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks! And good luck! I had to write a new description for my previous job since the role dramatically changed while I was in it. It was not easy summarizing all of my responsibilities into a few lines.

  73. Emmie*

    What does your company do for employee appreciation? What have been your favorite ways to be appreciated?

    1. Little Bean*

      Most favorite: yearly awards that come with money. Least favorite: spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a giant summer festival that involves lots of standing in lines in the sun, eating mediocre food with coworkers sitting on the ground, and getting a free t-shirt that I will never wear.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Sabbatical!! I’ve never had this perk but I would kill for it. After seven years of productive service to the company, that’s the appreciation I’m looking for (instead, at ten years, I’ll get … cufflinks. I’m female).

    2. Earthwalker*

      Some people say “Show me the money! Nothing else matters!” and I respect that, but frankly, I’m happiest with a sincere “Thanks, what you did made a difference.” Has to be sincere, though. “HR says we have to thank employees more often so here you go: thanks” is like giving a waiter a penny tip.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        We also get unexpected days off, that’s very valuable to us and more or less free to the company.

    3. Bowl of Oranges*

      We have quarterly and yearly awards. One is voted on by everyone in the company, one is based on specific numbers, some are chosen by leadership.

      We also try to recognize people publicly. We have written company values. Each has an icon that goes along with it and we have buttons with the icon on it. In all hands meetings, buttons are given out to employees to show appreciation for things they did that exhibited one of those values. We also post any kudos we get from customers on our internal social network.

      We also occasionally do things like get lunch for everyone (like get pizzas delivered) or get ice cream for everyone (we’re a small business so this isn’t crazy expensive).

    4. Lumen*

      Money.

      I know, I know. But last year, my team pulled off a big project. Everyone worked incredibly hard and supported each other and covered gaps. It took most of a year and the transition was actually very smooth.

      So we got bonuses. Solid, fairly large bonuses separate from our annual bonus/pay increase. The VP who told us about the bonuses did so one-on-one, so everyone also got to hear personally how their work and sacrifice had helped and how much it was appreciated. I absolutely think that made it more meaningful.

      But I can promise you, if I’d gotten a little thank-you meeting like that with no financial reward (or something like a gift card) I would be pissed.

    5. Annie Mouse*

      Aside from things like annual awards for certain things, my favourite bit of appreciation is when my company receives a letter or email complimenting a member of staff. The names of people who have received something that week are published in the weekly newsletter and then the individual gets a copy of the letter or email along with a little note from one of the bosses a few weeks later when they filter out. It’s such a boost to know when we’re appreciated.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I have come to loathe the food reward. Because of my food restrictions, I get none of the reward.

    7. Red Reader*

      We just got a disbursement of 1% of our 2017 gross salary to our 401k. It’s not cash in hand, but it’s the next best thing, as far as I’m concerned.

    8. MissingArizona*

      I had a boss that would walk around the office and hand everyone $100, and tell them personally that our company made a profit that month. He was such an awesome dude!

    10. Saradactyl*

      We used to do a yearly employee appreciation day with a big catered lunch and prizes. They also used to do fun little food surprises occasionally on holidays (smoothies, breakfast tacos etc). Not much else other than that, which is a little disappointing based on what I’m reading from the other comments.

      Now that the whole center is going entirely remote that will all go away and I’m not sure what they’ll replace it with, but I won’t be sticking around to find out regardless.

    11. Thlayli*

      We get bottles of wine and spirits at Christmas. There’s a strong tradition in my country of giving bottles of alcohol as gifts so if I get something I don’t personally like I could easily regift it.

      I think it would be hard for an alcoholic, but we work on a dangerous site with lots of industrial alcohol around (we use industrial ethanol to clean just about everything), so it’s doubtful an alcoholic would be employed here anyway, at least not for very long!

    12. Windchime*

      Money and days off. I do appreciate when my manager tells me I’m doing a good job (and she does so frequently), but honestly, I’m at work for the money. So more money and additional vacation days are what I appreciate most.

    13. Short & Dumpy*

      -Cash awards (appreciated by everyone)
      -Time off awards/being sent home early paid (appreciated by 95%…even most of the people who normally are in use or lose generally appreciate being told “it’s Friday, it’s sunny, go home a couple hours early….everything will wait”)
      -potlucks (appreciated by maybe 25%, tolerated by half, and loathed by the other quarter)
      -paid meals/outings outside of work hours (appreciated by maybe 10%, tolerated by a few, and loathed by the vast majority)
      -public recognition at staff meetings (appreciated by a few, but mostly causes resentment as inevitably someone who is generally a slacker manages to ride someone else’s coattails into an award)

  74. Wendy Darling*

    My temporary contract job is converting me to permanent salaried when my contract ends in a month! *confetti*

    The job is actually easier than I would prefer but there’s a good advancement path and I like my team a lot. Also, because the job is so mellow I’m going to take this time to do some non-job stuff I want to do, like night classes and training my dog for competition.

  75. Ann Furthermore*

    It’s been a sad, weird week. A woman who works at my company is terminally ill and has been moved into a hospice facility. It happened very quickly after she had a round of treatments late last year that seemed to be successful. She’s not someone I’m close to or friendly with, but she’s a very nice person and what she’s going through is just awful. There are some pretty unbelievable circumstances of the situation that I won’t go into, out of respect for her privacy, that just add another layer of sadness to the whole thing.

    1. Lumen*

      I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this. That’s a heavy emotional burden to be carrying at work. I hope that you and your coworkers are supporting each other and that outside of work you have some things to look forward to and feel good about.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        And my boss just called me to let me know she has resigned. Ugh. Time to update the old resume….

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Your boss resigned or the ill woman? I am thinking it’s your boss who resigned. I am very sorry about all this upheaval. It can be very unsettling.

          1. Ann Furthermore*

            My boss has resigned. I’m not surprised, for a number of reasons. I’ve had a weird feeling for awhile that something was up with her. We were able to have a pretty honest conversation today which made my next move pretty easy to figure out.

    1. Lumen*

      Reminds me of advice to girls about how they should dress so they don’t get assaulted.

      “Hey, the system is broken and sexist and engineered to try and keep you from winning no matter what you do, here are some ways to trick yourself into thinking you can control the misogyny of others rather than anyone in our society confronting the problem or changing anything! That way you can blame yourself for not ‘doing it right’, too!”

    2. fposte*

      I can’t beat up the author of the article, though; it’s reporting on some respectable research by respected researchers (Linda Babcock is the author of “Women Don’t Ask,” cited elsewhere in the thread today). We had a post and discussion about it here back a few years ago, too. It’s depressing research, that’s for sure; however, my caveat is that the circumstances were the opinion of outsiders and strangers, and there’s a fair amount of research suggesting that stigmas are hugely dependent on familiarity, so I’m not sure it translates to the real world.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Counterpoint: the advice is databased, and it is less “advice” than “here are strategies that worked in a large number of cases.” I would put it more on level with “women who perform femininity at work gain greater acceptance than those who don’t” than “don’t wear a dress if you don’t want to get raped.”

  77. Cercis*

    Am I being gaslighted here, or is it just my own paranoia? I am on a professional board and sit on the executive committee of the board. The new president doesn’t like me and since he’s been in office he’s been trying to get me off the exec committee (attacking my board role) and has been asking me to take on administrative tasks that are incredibly involved and tedious. I’ve pushed back on the administrative tasks because I’m already spending 20 hours/month on this org and it’s impacting my employment and family.

    So they’ve decided the org needs some strategic planning. But none of them have been through the process before. I went through the process with a nonprofit and enjoyed it so I did a LOT of research into the process and best management practices, etc. I’ve pushed back on some weird ideas they had, suggesting resources for them to read to learn more about how the process should work for the best product. This combined with the president’s antipathy towards me has resulted in me being excluded from the process (and I was respectful in expressing disagreement and suggesting resources, it has nothing to do with how I presented the info).

    So I mentioned that ideally we’d contact our various partners and find out their priorities for working with us, prior to the planning meeting. He wrote back suggesting that this was a “leadership opportunity” for me. That *after* the planning meeting (which I won’t be in), I could “take the lead” on drafting questions to ask them, identify all the various partners and the correct contact person, send the questions and collate the responses. To me, the only “leadership opportunity” in that is writing the questions, which I don’t believe anyone not in the initial meeting could effectively do without having an exact transcript because you can’t know what ideas were discussed and specifically excluded. I wrote back and explained my concerns and that the only tasks that a person not in the meeting could effectively do would be purely administrative and we have several board members who have been fairly uninvolved so this would be a great way to engage them. He responded “fine, I’ll get someone else to take this leadership opportunity.”

    This is the 2nd (or 3rd) time he’s tried to tell me that administrative tasks are “leadership opportunities” and I can’t tell if I’m just sensitive to being put in the administrative role due to being a woman on a male board or if maybe I’m just not imaginative enough to see the leadership involved.

    1. J.B.*

      You’re spending 20 hours per month on this org and he wants you to do more admin? And you won’t even be in the leadership meeting? I would decline and step back. Maybe one of the partner orgs would be interested in having you on their board.

      1. Cercis*

        Okay, so I’m not crazy. There are 2 other women on the board feeling burned out. We expected to do more because we’re breaking into a very entrenched good ol’ boys club, but we had no idea what was reasonable. When I say 20 hours/month it doesn’t necessarily sound like that much, it’s just 5 extra hours per week, but when several of the board members are saying “we need this” and acting like we’re turning down valuable opportunities to “lead” we wonder if we’re being naive and too protective of our time.

        I have been stepping back. I downloaded a time tracking program and decided I’d no longer respond to emails from my phone, only respond from the computer and while using the tracking app. I’m pretty sure I was up to 30 hours per month routinely before I started using the app.

        This board position does get me major exposure to people in my industry that could potentially be future employers, so I don’t want to drop off. But I am feeling really burned out. And suspect that several of the members are talking about how we avoid work without admitting that they’re actually expecting us to do a larger share of the admin work (so are potentially damaging my chances with key employers). And when I pushed back on a job that is too big for one person, they made it a huge deal and it ended with me being in an open board meeting saying “this isn’t a reasonable expectation for anyone” and having the entire board argue with me and a man finally saying “oh sure it is, I’ll do it” and 3 months later nothing is happening because it isn’t reasonable for one person. But all the board remembers is me saying it wasn’t reasonable and him volunteering. They don’t notice that NOTHING is happening – and when they have noticed they’ve come back to ask me why I wasn’t helping more.

        1. J.B.*

          Maybe talk to the other women and band together? As a group I would suggest that the admin duties rotate and it’s time for men to step up. Does the organization have any paid staff or is it only volunteer? If no one does the admin duties then they don’t. As for the guy head, I’d try to find someone mentor-ish: a manager at your company or at one of the partner orgs, and ask for advice about other groups that could use your strategic skills.

          1. Cercis*

            We have one paid staff member and we’re trying to do way too much. It’s time to add more paid staff and they have money in the budget, but …

            The other women are just dropping out because they feel that speaking up will hurt them professionally (and I can’t tell them that they’re wrong). I mean if enough of us speak up and do it enough eventually it won’t be a detriment to our professional life, but meanwhile …

    2. OrangePresident*

      No you aren’t being sensitive. He sounds like a class A jerk. You have expertise in strategic planning so you should be in on the planning meetings. Can’t wait to hear what jewels of wisdom come from those in that meeting!

      1. Cercis*

        He’s definitely a “good ol’ boy” and I’ve got multiple strikes against me. 1) I’m a woman, 2) my husband used to be his peer and then became his boss, a move which “forced” him to leave the agency, 3) I reported a serious sexual harassment issue that could have opened the board to litigation, and 4) I don’t sit down and shut up and just do what he wants me to do.

        I’ve mentioned in the past that I’m working on my leadership skills (as have some of the other women) so he’s couching requests/demands in terms of “leadership opportunities” when they’re clearly strictly administrative. But he’s so sure of himself I started wondering if I was just too unimaginative to see the leadership potential in creating a list of organizations and their contact persons.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Uh, no ONE person should be writing a strategic plan for an entire board. That is the board’s responsibility to set up a subcommittee to draft a plan then the board reviews it. One board I am on now is writing such a plan. There are five of us working on it and we are maxed out doing this work.

      You might have been able to play it so that you took the organization into new territory with your plan. However, this is one heckofalotta work. Plus he did not include you on that first meeting.

      What I see in your story here is an ivory tower individual who has NO clue how much work is involved in doing most projects. He has probably not done them himself. I know with the boards I am on we have people who work three days or more each week for board work. Board work can be demanding and it can feel like a bunch of administrative tasks. With boards the more work I complete the more credibility I have. And the more working knowledge I get, which in turn gives me more credibility. To some degree we have to work our way up on boards, I am thinking you have been on this board for a little while?

      Just going on what you have said here, this guy is not impressive to me. However, in the end it’s your call. If you think that being on this board is helping you then you might have to take some of these tasks. Conversely perhaps you could create your own leadership opportunity by launching your own project within the organization. Don’t expect them to help you, this goes back to other people also feeling maxed out.

      It might help to pay closer attention to how others are treated. If you have concerns about prejudice toward women, then I would watch how the men are treated for verification. If you have a male friend on the board you can ask him what his experience has been.

      A second thought is that over time you can change the board. When a position comes open you can recommend a woman for the slot. Just the act of getting more women on the board can change the culture on the board. (how would I know that. ;) )

      FWIW, I would not have taken the assignment to write a strategic plan by myself. I would have insisted on a group of people. If no one else was allowed to work on it with me, then I would have refused. To me this is not something that should be left up to one person.

      1. Cercis*

        I’m not writing it. I’m not even included in the planning. Actually less than half the board is being allowed to be included in the planning. It’s a major sticking point for me because the board is small enough that we should all be there. He’s formed a select committee of 10 to do all the planning and write the plan, the committee will have less than half of the current board on it (it includes some past board members). They did send out a very simple survey to the entire board and that’s supposed to be our “seat at the table.” It didn’t allow space to elaborate on answers and didn’t ask the right questions nor did it provide space for us to suggest the right questions. They are bringing in a facilitator who has limited strategic planning experience and seems to feel like he can’t push back on their ideas (and really it’s just the President driving the bus here). I’m sure he’s a great meeting facilitator but can’t really advise on strategic planning.

        No, what he wants is for me to, after this meeting but before the draft plan is provided, draft questions for our partners, identify those partners and the contact persons, send out the questions and then collate the answers. Presumably I’d potentially have someone review the questions I ask and make sure I don’t step in it by asking a question indicating that the board would be interested in an opportunity that this committee specifically rejected, but I’m not sure that will actually happen and I feel that there are great risks to my reputation if I don’t have the full picture and make it sound like the board is interested in a specific direction or has certain priorities when it doesn’t.

        The men definitely have less expected of them. I’ve asked a couple of men that I’m friendly with and they admit that less is expected. But they just shrug their shoulders and say “well, just say no, but understand that other members of the board will talk about you not pulling your load.” I’ve specifically suggested other men to handle administrative tasks and then been told “well, you want leadership, why are you passing up this prime leadership opportunity?” when it’s clearly strictly an administrative task.

        I have been nominating women. It’s why we’re up to 40% women now. And the whining about there being too many women is disheartening. 40% is supposed to be a goal, and I’m sure over time it will get better, but right now 3 of us are burned out and may not run again this year when our terms are up and one is term limited out. So we’ll go from 7 women to 3. Best case scenario is that I’ll find the strength to stick around and I’ll be able to recruit two more women to run, so we’ll have 6 and be back to less than 40%. Most of the women I talk to about running tell me that they’ve known women on the board and know that they just can’t give the time expected to give. I’ve tried convincing them that once there are enough of us we can say “yeah, that’s a perfect job for Bob or George, why not give him this opportunity to be more engaged?” but they’re not stupid and know it’s not going to really happen.

        Right now I stick with the board because I do have a pet project (which the men don’t support and grumble about even though it costs them nothing) that won’t happen unless I’m on the board. I need the organization’s support because I need a specific event insurance that I can only get through this organization’s international parent (I’ve looked into and there’s not an insurance company around that will underwrite it – it’s not inherently unsafe but it’s not understood so the underwriters don’t know how to classify it). It literally costs the organization nothing because it generates income, but the board whines about it because it’s “sexist”.

        But if the plan comes out and isn’t addressing some serious issues (such as the rampant good ol’ boys club culture that is turning away minorities and women) then I don’t see how I can stay. And I’m absolutely sure it won’t address that problem because it’s 70% men and the three women included are women who won’t stand up and say “yeah, this is not acceptable.” If another woman starts the conversation, they’ll back her up, but they’ll never start it themselves. Same for 2-3 of the men on the board – who weren’t included in this committee of 10 anyway. In other words, if they’d included all 17 members of the board, there’d be 9 or so that would want to include a plan to deal with the good ol’ boys culture, but the president carefully selected only people who won’t stand up and say anything.

  78. Seal*

    That’s awful! The doctor’s reaction is bad enough, but the nurse also questioned your meds? WTF?!?

    I also take medication for performance anxiety and have done so for years. Although my first primary care physician I saw after I moved for a new job turned out to be very, very bad for other reasons, she never questioned my need to take that particular drug for that particular reason or refused to fill my prescriptions. In fact, that was the only reason I stuck with her for so long. When I finally got a new pcp, he asked a few questions and if I had ever tried a different medication, but was completely fine when I said I was reluctant to try something else since this one worked so well for me. He’s been great with everything else as well.

    Check to see if the clinic or medical center has some sort of patient advocate service or other way to register a complaint, particularly since you have no intent of going back to her. My experience is that clinics want and need to know if their doctors are screwing up.

    1. Seal*

      This was supposed to be a reply to anon for a minute’s post below. No idea how it ended up on top!

  79. Not Today Satan*

    How/why do so many toxic and incompetent people become senior managers? I get the Peter Principle, but competent senior managers at my employers have been SO rare. Is it just that people start to believe their own hype when they get to a certain level and become controlling egomaniacs?

    5. Chaordic One*

      I read an article about psychopaths (or was it sociopaths) and it said something about how they are charming but lacking in empathy for others (kiss up, kick down). They get results (no matter what the cost) and it seems like that is all that matters to the people who hire managers.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have seen comments to a similar thing, sociopaths/psychopaths have many personality traits similar to what a leader should have. Therefore it is possible to wind up with an individual who should not be in charge of people, yet is in charge of people.

        I think that if one puts oneself in a position of leadership that person has to realize they may be subjected to scorn and ridicule. Sometimes it’s justified and sometimes is pure jealousy.

  80. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I’m so tired! Can we use this space for scary or funny stuff that happened at work so I am laughing or nervous and stay awake?

    2. Laura H*

      Well I forgot how to use the phone at work… the instructions were right on the receiver… and I’m repeatedly (Internally thank goodness) going “Why. Won’t. This. Work. The way. I. Want it. To??!” As I dial incorrectly.

      I felt like an idiot. But I think it’s funny!

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Years ago I was working late at a job, and my office was away in a corner, so someone, thinking they were the last person leaving, set the alarm.

        I finally gave up my work, I had a headache, and as I walked into the hall, the motion detector detected me and started screaming. I fought my throbbing head as I went to the front, and attempted to call someone, anyone, to turn off the alarm (I had no clue, obviously). The main boss apparently had an unlisted number. I frantically looked through the phone book. The next person – no-one answered. The next – wrong number. I felt like I was in one of my phone nightmares with the addition of a shrieking alarm. I finally got someone to answer. They called their dad, who eventually came to the phone, and eventually looked up the number for the alarm company. I called the alarm company, who eventually turned off the alarm.

        As the relief from the quiet washed over me, I looked down and saw the name and number for the alarm company written in big numbers on the phone I was using.

    3. Anon for Reasons*

      One of my coworkers brought in some spicy food recently for everybody to try. As a spicy food lover, I was excited. I heard a loud commotion in the lunchroom once it was set out. So I trekked in to try some out.

      People’s faces were red. They were sweating. CLEARLY this stuff was hot. So I took a few samples. I picked up one of the cheeses. A chorus of male voices rang out: “OH no, you can’t handle that. It’s too spicy. YOU DON’T WANT THAT.” I shrugged and popped it in my mouth because, screw that noise. I’m aware that I, a short, blonde woman looks like the kind that, stereotypically, doesn’t look like they can handle anything hotter than ketchup.

      As I munched away, I went to wash my hands. Last thing I need is errant oil from the peppers getting in my eyes. I turned back around. They’re all staring at me, “So? How do you feel???” I paused. Waiting for the searing pain to kick in. I mean, yeah, there’s a tingle but that’s it.

      I raised an eyebrow, “Oh. Am I supposed to be in pain, now?”

    4. Crylo Ren*

      My coworker has, for some reason, synced up the NKotB classic “Step by Step” on his computer so that he can immediately start playing it whenever a conversation warrants it.

      I’m not sure why *that* song specifically, but here we are.

    5. LDP*

      So, I work in the marketing department for a mall, and our offices are actually in the mall. I’ve only been here 6 months, but holy cow do I already have stories.
      I think my favorite would have to be around Christmas time. I get a call from our security team asking if the marketing department had hired someone to dress up as a nutcracker and walk around (we’re in charge of all the events/programs/pictures with Santa, etc., so if anyone had hired someone to come in costume, it would have been someone on our 3 person team). Anyway, I ask my coworker who usually books these things. She says no, she didn’t hire a nutcracker, but she did hire an elf on stilts. So, we’re going back and forth with the security team about whether or not it was an elf or a nutcracker. Turns out it was definitely a fat guy dressed as a nutcracker, and the management team spent an entire afternoon walking the entire mall searching for this nutcracker.
      I’m definitely not doing the story justice, but since we were all delirious from lack of sleep since it was the holidays, we thought it was hilarious and were making tons of jokes about it.

    6. NaoNao*

      TW: gross out story!

      So I work at a place that has an engineering lab, albeit a very casual one. I went down there to have a conversation with a coworker about a specific technical topic.

      Two minutes into it, the only other guy in the lab starts coughing heavily, and then leans over and *vomits athletically* into his garbage can, right across the row from us.

      Then he just casually goes back to work, like ho hum.

      My coworker was like “Ferg? You okay there?”

      Ferg: Just choked on a pretzel, that’s all.”

      But his complete lack of care/explaining/apologies was just so odd!

  81. A ninny mouse*

    I’m coming up at my 90 review after starting my first full-time job (I have been temping/interning for 2 years at different companies after graduating college). I really like my new job. However, when I was interviewing, I had reached a point where I was DESPERATE to get a full time job, so when they asked me about salary, I SERIOUSLY lowballed it. I regretted it as soon as I blurted out the number, but what’s done is done.

    Getting a salary increase is constantly on my mind, as I am struggling a bit right now. I plan to ask after a year (when I have a record of achievement ready – I’ve already gotten great feedback on my work ). My question is – how do I figure out what the PROCESS of asking for an increase is? I want to time it so when I ask, my manager has enough time to deal with budgets etc.

    How do you say, “Please tell me about what the best way to ask for a salary increase, as I am planning to do so in the future?

    1. Lumen*

      This is a question it’s worth asking in interviews – which you’re past, and that’s okay, but for the future, make sure to ask how the company handles performance and pay increases before you accept an offer.

      In your case, keep it vague and general, and maybe ask around before you go to your manager. Find out if they have annual reviews and if compensation discussions are part of that process. Find out if your boss is the ‘I only give raises if people ask’ type, or if they’ll be offering you an increase in a year and that’s your chance to negotiate up from their offer.

    1. Anonforthis*

      So, I’m Jewish and I work at a Jesuit institution. I’ve also worked at a Jewish institution.

      YMMV, depending on where you work and your personal values (how they align with the institutional values). I’ve found that this is a great fit for me, as the Jewish value and Jesuit values closely fit together. I enjoy having the statement of university values as a guidepost for difficult discussions with students (Okay, so it seems like someone did something unethical here. How do our values come into play here? How can we process this from a values standpoint?). I do feel like it’s a bit of a constraint, sometimes, b/c we do essentially “answer to” the Catholic church, so that’s always taken into consideration.

      That said, I’ve never felt like my values are compromised b/c the Jesuits are pretty progressive.

      For you, you’ll have to dig into the university values and think about what’s important to you. For me, I’m fairly liberal, so I looked for student clubs and departments that were a reflection of my values. There is an LGBTQ club, and a staff member assigned to work with LGBTQ students. That was a good sign for me.

      nutshell- what are the institutional values, how are they lived out IRL, how do they align with your own values.

      1. Anonforthis*

        Also, could I *USE* “values” more in a statement? ::said in Chandler Bing voice::

      2. Kitkat*

        +1 I work for a progressive Jewish organization and also really enjoy having a pretty explicit set of ethical values laid out (I’m not Jewish, but am very liberal, so we align pretty well.) Despite having been raised Christian, I’m not sure I would want to work for a Christian organization, as they tend to be more conservative.

        Also, in addition to my 2 weeks of vacation and federal holidays, I get 1-2 more weeks of Jewish holidays scattered through out the year, depending on where everything falls, which is amazing :)

    2. Lady Jay*

      It depends on what institution, and how religious they are.

      In general, many religious institutions are sociopolitically conservative, which may be frustrating; they often pay less than their secular counterparts; and when you leave, your next potential employers may make assumptions about who you are as a person based on your religious employer, making it a little more challenging to find new work. You also may have to contend with normalization of religious practices, such as staff prayer groups (whether this is a problem to you depends on whether you are yourself religious and whether you share your coworkers’ religious faith).

      I’d also say that religious institutions put a lot of stock in acting ethically (though of course the people there will not be perfect; they’re still people, after all) and that they may have a strong sense of vision. An old friend of mien from college works at a religious institution on the East Coast that works to end human trafficking; it’s a good institution.

    3. Emi.*

      I have a friend who works for her Archdiocese (ie directly for the Catholic Church) and says they’re very family- and life-outside-of-work-friendly. She’s in legal, which I always associate with long hours, but her boss (or sometimes the Bishop) comes down the hall at 5:05pm saying “You can finish that tomorrow! Go home, eat dinner, sleep, hang out with your family, live your life!”

    4. Oxford Coma*

      I would go through the health benefits with a fine-tooth comb, if you are a woman. A lot of belief-based restrictions to health care disproportionately affect women.

      1. AcademicSchacademic*

        Oxford Coma is right. My religious employer will not pay for BC so my gyn diagnosed me with “heavy periods” that need to be regulated to get around it. Overall, my experience hasn’t been too bad. We get wine and beer during the day at certain events and lots of holidays off–trade off, I guess!

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Is it a religion you share?

      My mother worked for our head church for 15 years and loved it — and still drops hints about once a year that I should think about getting a job with them, too. (To be fair, it’s in an area of the country I dearly miss living in.)

      Pros: being surrounded by people who “speak the same language” so to speak, was very supportive for her and she felt very much at home.
      Cons: even in a generally very woman-positive religion, she dealt with a lot of sexism in the office. She was in the finance office, and got a lot of crap from a lot of old religious dudes who were Not Real Pleased with having a woman doing money stuff.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Well, if it is a Catholic institution, your health care coverage is limited to what the Catholic Church deems appropriate.

    7. Ms. Pear*

      I’m of the same faith as the religious institution I work for, so I’ve appreciated being able to work for a cause I really believe in (literally, haha!). Every employer is different, but for me:

      The Pros:
      * Overall positive and supportive working environment
      * Very flexible regarding family time and emergencies (several of us have even brought our children into the office on school snow days)

      The Cons:
      * Be prepared for the fact that your bosses and religious leaders are human. Though they’re faith leaders, they still lose their tempers, can be thoughtless, be rude, etc. — in other words, they sin, just like you and me. However, it’s hard for some people to deal with that in their pastors/priests/spiritual leaders and it can be damaging to their faith. If you think this might be you, you might want to think twice about taking the job.
      * Like any non-profit, the pay isn’t usually what you’d make in the secular world.

    8. LilySparrow*

      My husband and I have worked for various religious orgs over the years.
      Pros: if you share the religion or the main values, it gives you a great sense of purpose and satisfaction. Often family-friendly and flexible. Usually good about showing appreciation and fostering a cooperative, collegial atmosphere with teammates.

      Cons: pay is usually capped well below market rates, with little or no upward mobility. A mindset that is not connected to profit motive can sometimes undermine good business practices in frustrating ways. If the org is dependent on a charismatic leader as its public face or for fundraising, it may also be subject to the leader’s whims. Basically, all the potential toxicity of “we’re like family” small businesses. Also, if it’s your own religion, it can be unsettling to find out too much about internal politics and “how the sausage gets made.”

      We’ve had some lovely experiences, but overall we prefer the for-profit world.

  83. anonanon*

    So I’m new to the working world (graduated last May) and trying to figure out if this is a normal situation or if my office is being crazy.
    I work in Big City but live in suburbs (still with my parents) and we were hit pretty hard by the storm this week. I take public transportation to work. On Wednesday when it started snowing, lots of people asked if they could leave early due to fears about transportation getting shut down. CEO made a big speech about how we were “freaking out over nothing” and wouldn’t let anyone leave until 5PM when the storm was already well underway. I made it to the station, and then sat with delays for hours and hours until it was announced all services were suspended for the rest of the night. No buses, no trains, Ubers were turning down rides due to road conditions, it was a mess. I was able to crash with a friend in Big City, but the next morning I was still in the same clothes I wore the day before, tired, hungry, with a dead phone… so once I found out buses were running again, I went back home. I emailed my boss that I was able to work from home (I arrived back home before 9AM), but she said it would have to be counted as a vacation day because I “could have” come in to the office. I had no change of clothes, makeup, anything that would make me look professional/like I hadn’t spent the night sleeping on an air mattress during a snowstorm! The CEO is a serious stickler about dress code and presentation too. I guess I can’t fight the ruling, but I’m feeling a little disappointed that my employer who always pulls the “we’re a family” line didn’t even want to know if I weathered the storm safely. Am I being overly emotional about this? I haven’t said anything to my boss.

    1. Parenthetically*

      If anything, I’d wait until you cool off and say something like, “Because the buses and trains weren’t running during the last storm, I stayed with a friend, but that would have meant coming into the office in the same clothes I’d worn the day before. I want to balance my obligation to look professional and put together with my obligation to come to work, and also with my personal safety in those situations. Can you give me some guidance about what you would like me to do in a future similar circumstance so I can meet all the requirements of my job?”

      Also “we’re a family” = a train carrying red flags crashing into a red flag factory, in my experience.

    3. CheeryO*

      No, that’s crappy. I do think you could have included a little more information in your email, because “crashed on a friend’s couch last night because I got stranded at the bus/train station” is pretty serious and maybe more intense than what she was picturing (assuming you weren’t as detailed with her than you were with us). I agree with Parenthetically that it might be worth having that conversation once you’ve cooled off a bit. Either way, your company was jerky about this, and it’s definitely reasonable to expect that your next company will be more understanding.

    4. More's the pity*

      Were you the only person in the company that was taking public transit and got stranded? If not, what did others do?
      When you called the next morning to ask to work from home, and their response was you’ll have to take a vacation day, couldn’t you have gone into work at that point (perhaps a little late)?

  84. Decima Dewey*

    Two of my reports are fighting over the use of a computer that’s only available to them to fight over because we don’t have a children’s librarian. If we got one on Monday, she would be sitting at the desk, using that computer. It’s now come to the point of dueling email rants. While I enjoy Kurosawa’s films, I object to living in “Rashomon.”

    There’s also the “I really don’t need to know this” factor. Fergusina has told me she only uses “natural pain remedies” and that her doctor recommends a knee replacement which she won’t get for reasons. I didn’t ask. Her FMLA status means more or less that I’m stuck with her–she needs to work close to home, and the other branch in the area insisted on getting rid of her. Meanwhile, Fergus keeps complaining to me about her doing this, that, and the other (no Seinfeld reference intended).

    Luckily, I have support from my own boss who doesn’t think I should need to be dealing with this silliness. Next week we’ll have a meeting and try to iron things out.

    1. Parenthetically*

      While I enjoy Kurosawa’s films, I object to living in “Rashomon.”

      I… I think I love you.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Wow. I am so sorry. Just try to keep your humor about it (which it looks like you are.)

  85. Tired*

    My boss is asking me to provide feedback on a coworker later today. I am senior to them but not their supervisor. They are new and I have noticed some significant problems. How honest should I be? A lot of the issues are ones that I think might be fixable but would require a very honest discussion of what needs to improve. They are on probation right now (because they are new) which is why feedback is being solicited.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think you should say exactly that! “I have noticed some real problems but I think they are very fixable with the right correction.”

      1. Tired*

        I guess I feel weird about it since I haven’t said anything to Coworker about the problems. But I feel like saying something to Coworker would be an overstep since I am not their supervisor. I have addressed some things, like interrupting me when I am busy, but that has been more passive “I can’t really talk right now. Can this wait?”

        1. Lil Fidget*

          No, you’ve been clearly asked by the person who is their supervisor. I can’t imagine trying to lie or cover up a problem.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Right. Don’t over think this one. This is a task the boss is asking you to do, period.
            Any new job I have had I fully expected my coworkers to report to the boss what they like/dislike about my work effort. It’s kind of silly/naive to think otherwise.

            Tell him the truth, be factual. If need be prepare a list of talking points before you go in.

    2. MentoringSaves*

      Your boss has probably noticed some things and wants to get your perspective, particularly if they know you to be honest. You don’t have to throw a new co-worker under the bus but you can say that you have noticed some ways that you believe need improvement for them to succeed. Give concrete examples not “Pat isn’t great with customers” more of “Pat had a difficult time with frustrated customer and their attempts to handle made the situation worse. I think they need help learning how to de-escalate.”

  86. NaoNao*

    Juggling a full time and a part time gig: best tips, tricks, notes, wish I would have known, etc. I’ve done it before, but am open to new ideas!
    I have a fairly flexible full time office job I do like (my hours are approx 7-3) and I am pretty sure I will be offered a very part time retail gig I’m very, very psyched about. Hours there would vary, but likely occasional afternoon to evening shifts, primarily weekends, 10-6 or 11-6.
    I am child free, and have a house cleaner who I’ll likely bump from every 3 weeks to every 2, simply because I won’t be able to stay on top of the daily tidying and maintenance as before.
    So…hit me with your best tips, tricks, notes, ideas, etc!

    1. MissingArizona*

      Crocpot meals. Make batches of stuff, freeze in small portions. You don’t have to live off them, but sometimes you just don’t want to go out for food, or just too tired to cook anything.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Depending on where you work, when I worked in an office where the dress code I was “business casual” I wore a lot of knits (especially a lot of polo shirts) because I didn’t have to iron them.

  87. MsChanandlerBong*

    Two questions. 1) If a potential employer had to communicate with you, would you prefer email or text message? 2) Would you think it was weird for a potential employer to send you a text message (assuming you have never met the person and have no history with them at another company or anything)?

    1. Trillion*

      Yes I would find it weird, but I’d deal with it if that’s what they wanted to do. It would be a bit of a red flag for me, but I also know how the recruiters act are not always reflective of how the organization in general runs.

      I’m interviewing with one right now that only wants to communicate by phone or LinkedIn (no email). I applied via their career site (not LinkedIn). I can understand a recruiting not wanting her email address available to any and everybody, but I’ve been through 4 interviews already with the company (with number 5 coming up soon), so she knows I’m not just a scammer/skimmer/bot.

    2. Bowl of Oranges*

      I’d prefer email. I’m not a fan of texting for work in general beyond quick correspondence when necessary (like letting someone know you’re running late).

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Unsolicited texts would be a big red flag to me that this company is probably too casual and young to be compatible with my working style. YMMV, of course.

    4. McWhadden*

      Email 100% of the time. (I mentioned a text conundrum I had below but I knew my potential employer outside of this and even then ended up not doing so. Although she did text me later.)

      It’s hard to explain why. But 1) Texting to me feels immediate. When you text you want a response ASAP or at least it gives that impression. 2) I can email on my computer so I can take time with a response and edit more easily than on my phone. 3) It’s just too casual.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        To me texting is also much more intrusive on my personal space and time, somehow. I don’t have my email open in a movie theater or at the grocery store but I do have my phone on. That said, some people are also fans of the cold call, which is a comparable intrusion I guess.

    5. Lumen*

      I would INSIST on email. This person hasn’t hired me, they haven’t proven that I can trust their boundaries, there is no reason they need to be texting me.

    6. Tired*

      I hate receiving texts from people who are not close friends and family. I would seriously reconsider if I wanted the job.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Thank you all for your replies. I had an ulterior motive when I asked this question. I am helping out with recruiting during our busy season at work (I have an HR background, so I’ve done it before and can at least be some help while the other person is bogged down). The positions are all freelance, so we do phone interviews rather than in-person interviews. If I call someone and they don’t answer, I’ve been sending a follow-up email that says I called as scheduled, sorry I missed them, let me know if you’d like to reschedule (written professionally, of course). My boss doesn’t want me to do that. He wants me to send them a text message. I’m almost 40, and I am not someone who is glued to my phone–I find texting to be unprofessional, and if I was a candidate, I would see it as a red flag. But maybe it’s just a generational thing (he is younger than me). The weird thing is that we don’t ask candidates to indicate if the numbers they provide are cell or landline numbers, so even though most people have a cell, we could be sending texts to landline numbers, which means the candidate won’t even get the message. I just find it to be weird, but I’m not in charge, so unless it’s something that’s against the law or totally unethical, I’ll just have to do it.

    7. Gollum*

      They wouldnt be able to text me because I dont give out my cell phone number. I have a landline (needed to have one for our alarm system) so I use that. It has an old fashioned answering machine!

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        That was one of my concerns as well. We don’t ask people to distinguish whether their number is a cell or landline, so what if I’m texting people who aren’t even getting the texts?

    8. Someone else*

      1) Email. 2) Yes I would think it were weird. Texting is inherently casual and brief. Communication with a potential employer I’ve never met is not usually. I mean, it might be brief, but not quite single-text brief, and definitely not casual. So that’d be weird.

    9. Thlayli*

      Depends on the type of work, and their use of computers in their job. In a retail job for example it would be pretty normal for a travelling district manager to text you, but in a big consultancy firm where the manager is sitting at a desk emailing people all day it would be really weird for them to text you.

      Also if they are recruiting for an entry-level no-degree-needed type of job, or a hands-on technical type job, the majority of their candidates may not regularly use email outside of work, so text would be appropriate. Plumbers and electricians aren’t generally great and checking their email for example.

  88. Adam*

    In my job hunting process recently I’ve started receiving texts from people claiming to be recruiters in the area I’m looking (Technical Writing). I get about one text a day asking me to check out specific jobs. Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? If you looked into it did you find it to be legit or helpful?
    Thanks in advance.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I’m a tech writer who gets contacted by recruiters all the time — like every day — and only once was it a text, and it sounded like a scam at that (badly written/phrased). I get phone calls and emails. While not an answer to your issue, let me take this opportunity to rant that I hate it when recruiters call and leave a message (I don’t pick up unknown numbers for this very reason, they recruiters and I’m at work) instead of sending an email with stats about the job. You’d be surprised how many offers of interest I get for places hundreds of miles away or calling for experience that is not in my wheelhouse. Emails, people, emails, and if it’s interesting I’ll get back to you, don’t just leave a VM about “a great opportunity.” End rant. I wouldn’t trust texts like this.

  89. Aleta*

    Receptionist level-up: Ordered flowers for the first time ever very professionally while reenacting the scene from Black Books where Bernard orders books in my head. Though I’m grateful to the service industry for teaching me how to have very disparate conversations out loud and in my head in the first place. :p

  90. suffusion*

    Here’s something I’d love to get some outside perspective on: I work in the parking department of a large public university in the United States. We sell parking permits and write tickets to people who break the parking rules. From time to time, an employee will counterfeit a parking pass. The fine for this is several hundred dollars.

    My question is, is this something that a manager would want to know about? As a manager, would you take any action if notified? On the one hand, it’s just parking. On the other, the employee is stealing hundreds of dollars worth of services from a public institution. Thoughts?

    1. Parenthetically*

      Rat them out to their boss for trying to get free parking? Mmm nah. The hundreds-of-dollars fine is your business, but their relationship with their employer is definitely not your business.

    2. Lumen*

      I’m confused: an employee of the parking department (who presumably has some access to creating counterfeit parking passes) or an employee of the university at large (who is part of the group your department is ostensibly meant to monitor)?

      If the former, um… yes. That’s theft. It means the employee is untrustworthy and has exceedingly poor judgement.
      If the latter… um, yes. It’s theft. And it’s your department’s job to police that sort of behavior.

      How the manager chooses to handle it is between them and the employee. But maybe I’m missing something in the post. To me the answer seems very simple.

      1. McWhadden*

        A lot of people look very negatively on “tattling” of any form. If an employee is just doing this of their own volition without their manager or an identified policy they could get in trouble for this.

      2. suffusion*

        An employee of the university at large.

        I don’t think you’re missing something, but Parenthetically’s response above is typical of the attitude we tend to get. As the department in charge of enforcing the rule, we can obviously feel very passionately about some things. It can sometimes be hard to remember that people on the outside feel very differently about parking (i.e. it is their inalienable right as granted by their creator to circumvent parking rules). While I don’t need a reality check to know that a supervisor doesn’t care about unpaid meter tickets, sometimes it’s hard to tell where the “who cares, it’s just parking” line is.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, viewpoint is all here. I can understand that from outside the system this might be on a par with reporting parking tickets, but I’m in a state university system and I immediately clutched my pearls about deliberate attempts to defraud the state. What’s more, every employee has to take an annual ethics training that makes it clear that this stuff has to get reported, so somebody who did it here would have to be pretty brazen.

    3. fposte*

      Oh, that’s an interesting one! You guys don’t have a policy on this? For our university, that would be a breach of the ethics law and therefore would have to be reported; while the reporting wouldn’t necessarily directly be to the manager, if the ethics officer okayed it I think it would make sense. That’s an outright attempt to defraud the employer.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, really. This is one of those things you do not mess with. It’s written in stone. You boss should be saying how she wants this reported.

    4. McWhadden*

      It’s not something I would do on my own authority. Sometimes bosses can be totally irrational and blindly loyal to their people. You could also make yourself a target. It could blow back on you a few different ways.

      I do think it’s something it would make sense to have a policy on. But I wouldn’t go around doing it unless you have cover. “Sorry, it’s department policy to notify employers of employee fraudulent conduct.”

      1. Little Bean*

        Agreed. I would want a department policy and to know that my boss supported me before talking to someone’s boss. There’s too great a chance that the boss will be annoyed that you’re bothering them with something not directly related to their employee’s performance (as they see it), or that the employee will be angry with you and complain to your department.

        1. suffusion*

          For what it’s worth, my particular position is specifically empowered to make such reports. So as far as it goes, I think I have the support of my boss. But the second half, where the other boss or the employee is annoyed rather concerned is that part that gives me pause.

          1. McWhadden*

            As irrational as it is that *will* happen. I can pretty much guarantee it. But as long as you have the authority and your boss’s approval I wouldn’t stress about that too much.

          2. Kuododi*

            There will always be people in your life who will be exasperated with you on some level or another. The question becomes…do you let that limit you from functioning in your job/life or do you just hold your head up and do what you need to do? Best wishes…!!!!

    6. The New Wanderer*

      At my former company (not a university), any parking or driving-on-site violations were cc’d to the manager of the employee who owned the car. A second violation was a mandatory write-up, I’m not sure how it escalated from there (I never got one).

    8. Free Meerkats*

      This one seems easy to me.

      Ticket them. When they try to claim that they have a parking permit, you obviously won’t be find it in your system. So make them produce it. Unless they are expert forgers, it will be obviously fake. At that point you turn them over to your legal department for fraud.

  91. BadPlanning*

    In a meeting with manager, he specifically thanked me for my confident and calm demeanor even when working on hot problems.

    This is specifically the way I want to present myself and so it was great to here that people’s perception matches what I’m trying to project.

    I’ve worked with people who are calm (but obviously determined to get the problem worked) under pressure and desired to emulate their behavior.

    1. Lumen*

      That’s awesome! And remaining calm and focused under pressure is an admirable skill to consciously improve and present to others.

  92. KT*

    I’m the Executive Assistant to the President and CEO of a non-profit. The current CEO is moving on to bigger and better things, leaving an Interim CEO in his place. Yesterday, the current CEO asked for my updated resume because ‘I’m not sure whether I’ll get to hire my own EA at the new place, if you’re interested and I can, I’d like to bring you with me. Also, I have a good friend looking for an EA at a hospital nearby and I think you’d be a good fit for her role as well. No pressure, though.’

    Both roles would end up being AT LEAST a $20,000 a year pay rise. However, I’ve only been in this role for 5 months and wouldn’t have even considered moving (I really like it here) had the CEO not mentioned it. What would you guys do in this situation?

    1. Morning Glory*

      Do you like your job because you enjoy working with your current CEO, or because of other factors? With a new CEO coming in, is it possible that your current job is not secure, and your current CEO is looking out for you?

      I would personally try to go with the higher salary, unless you feel 100% secure in your current job, and you love it there for reasons that would be difficult to find in a new workplace.

      1. KT*

        A little of both. The job is varied and I get to use a lot of the weird little skills I’ve picked up over the years that I haven’t gotten to use in other jobs. But the CEO is one of the loveliest people and Execs I’ve ever had the pleasure of working for and with. I’ve been assured that my role isn’t in jeopardy with the CEO leaving (basically, unless he poaches me), because the Interim CEO and any subsequent CEOs are also going to need an EA. Hence my confusion.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Go. You have a boss that you really like working for, plus your salary will get a sizable bump. You don’t know if you will like working for the new CEO, or if they will want to bring in their own EA. So keep working for your nice boss.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            Exactly. I’d be moving right along with my CEO – once a firm, signed offer letter was in hand of course.

    2. Tired*

      It would be hard for me to turn down that kind of a raise. Also, since you were hired as his EA and he left, it will be easy to explain why you switched jobs so quickly.

      1. KT*

        Yeah, the raise made my eyes bug out a little. $20k+ a year raise, plus bonus, plus pension, plus benefits. Like, damn.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Plus – it is possible that the new CEO might want his/her own EA? (Do EAs often follow the CEOs???)

      1. KT*

        The Interim CEO is a VP promoted from within, so I’ve basically already been his EA as well for the last 5 months. I wouldn’t be sad to continue being his EA, and he’s already expressed that he’ll be glad to have me around. In my experience, EAs don’t often follow their Execs unless there is a really good ‘I like this one and don’t want to try and find one that I’ll keep comparing to my old one’ type relationship that enables that (so it was nice to hear that he wanted me to follow him).

    4. McWhadden*

      It can’t hurt to follow up right?! In the end, if something comes of it but you don’t want it you can turn it down.

      Plus, by the time a job comes available and you’ve interviewed it could be three months or so. Being at a job slightly short of a year is perfectly reasonable. I wouldn’t worry about that aspect of it all.

      Either way congrats! You should feel good about this!

      1. KT*

        Oh that’s entirely reasonable. I never even factored in the amount of time it would take to actually go through the whole job process. Thank you for that!

    5. a-no*

      There is nothing wrong with giving him your resume and still deciding to stay where you are. It isn’t an obligation to take the new job so may as well learn if you’d even want the other positions (and pay raise) before making any choices.

    6. GoodEAsareHardToFind*

      Go for it. You can easily explain to future employers that your former boss recruited you for a new position at with his new company. After only 5 months, you should be proud that you made such an impression! Go you!

      1. Anecdata*

        Yep, and a $20,000 raise is nothing to scoff at!

        (And is it possible you’re being paid under market value? I can imagine a good boss having that in mind when thinking “and even if KT doesn’t come with me, she might be a great fit at this other hospital”

        1. KT*

          Definitely possible I’m being paid under market value. I moved to Canada from Australia a few years ago, and had to take a few lowball jobs just to pay bills, so I’m kinda working my way back up the chain again (frustrating).

    7. Chaordic One*

      If you like your boss, go for it. As someone who has done this in the past, the only real downside was that there were others in the new organization who accused me of being one of the boss’s cronies, brought in from outside. It didn’t really bother me that much because the upsides of the job outweighed the downsides. Unfortunately for me, my boss didn’t really like the job all that much and he resigned after a couple of years to go do something different and I ended up being laid-off shortly after he left.

  93. Bea W*

    It was a bit stormy here this week, floods, destruction, mass power outages, etc. The same person I posted about last week scoffed when I said the guy building our teapots lost power while he was working extra hours at home late at night on our project.

    Then she asked what about now. He was 2orking on it now wasn’t he. “We have power in the office!” I said he didn’t come to the office today. He decided to just take the time off to stay home and would resume working when the power came back. She scoffed again. He just wanted to take the day off! He didn’t really lose power, did he?

    He did, and his area was a big impassible mess of a crap ton of snow and downed trees and wires. 90-100% of customers in those towns lost power overnight.

    I was flabbergasted at her reaction, especially with all the implying the guy was liar and just using the storm as a convenient excuse to get out of work. She’s not even his boss! It was awful.

    1. fposte*

      Yikes. I wonder if that’s the kind of thing she’s tempted to do and that’s why she’s so suspicious. I don’t know if I’d have the presence of mind in the moment, but if I did, I’d tell her that Bob has been an asset to the company for years and it’s really not our culture to badmouth our valued colleagues.

      1. Bea W*

        She is. She was one of the reasons our mtual former employer took away summer hours and gave everyone a stearn lecture about what hours people were expected to be working and easily available. It wasn’t just her, but yeh she had that reputation before.

  94. Sabrina Spellman*

    I am mentoring a new hire to the department and truthfully, I have no idea what to do! So, please share with me what you’ve appreciated in mentors in the past or what you hope to see in any mentor/mentee relationship in your own work environment.

    1. Lumen*

      Take them out for coffee (or a donut or whatever works for you both) and just check in: “How are things going?” The change of scenery may help them relax and confide in you, which is important in a mentor/mentee relationship.

      If there’s something you specifically want to ask about, like… let’s say a beloved employee’s position was eliminated and you want to know how your mentee is taking it and if they’re anxious about the news, ask openly about that.

      Give them space to do most of the talking, and focus on giving them strategies to cope, advice on actions to take, and reassurance about what they’re doing well.

      If you want to go more casual, just stop by every couple of weeks and chat with them. Same general principles: let them guide the discussion, offer strategies and advice, make sure you’re a ‘vault’ they can confide in. Not every conversation needs to be long, or about work.

      I think of mentors as “a more experienced work friend, emphasis on the ‘work’ part”.

    3. MentoringSaves*

      I talked about this recently with a colleague. Sometimes its good not to assume they know the basics so start there along with the expectations and the culture of your industry, especially if they are just out of school or changed industries. Utilize your years of expertise to give the mentee an accurate picture of how things are from your perspective and make suggestions on how they can increase their professional knowledge like specific conferences, podcasts, websites, blogs, journals, and industry news that you follow to stay current on trends, issues, and innovations in your field. There are also good resources online that give general steps to mentoring that might be customizable to your needs.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      The best mentorship I ever received was getting the opportunity to learn more about the kinds of problems a more senior person was trying to work on. My boss/mentor spent a lot of time sharing the kinds of stuff she was working on and asking my perspective, not because I necessarily had anything of value to contribute, but to give me practice thinking about the kind of work I’d do a few layers above me.

      I think a related piece of this is being able to shed light on the bigger strategic issues of your department or company/organization. When your mentee has a question or challenge, are you able to explain a bit about the context in which that challenge is happening? E.g. something that seems inefficient on a personal level that makes sense when you think about the whole company.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Explain the whys, the reasons things are done this way not that way.
      If his work is passed to someone else explain what that person is doing so he can set the work up in a manageable way for the next person.
      Give a little company history.
      Explain which policies are a bfd if he breaks those policies.
      If he has difficulty with X and everyone else does, too, then just say so. Then explain how to work through X.
      Show him ways that he can be a superstar.
      If truthful, explain that everyone has issues with Bob. It’s normal. Give pointers about working with Bob, if you can.
      If a program or machine is crappy, just say so and show him work-arounds.
      Talk about the industry as a whole. “We are ranked number 20 out of 500. Here is what makes our company special___. Here is where we are sagging___.” If he seems enthused, talk about the future and what you think the future will look like for your arena.

  95. Boss problems*

    In a nutshell: I’m frustrated that I’m reporting to someone who is equally (if not less) experienced than I, especially that he has been given the authority to provide feedback and evaluate my work.

    Longer story: I work in a tiny liberal arts college on the West Coast, and we hired this person (I’ll call him Joseph) several years ago, following a vacancy in the department. The person who taught one branch of our general education courses left. He also served as the department head at the time. When we hired Joseph, the department headship was explicitly linked to his position, but because he was hired before he’d even finished his master’s degree, somebody else in the department filled in. Our interim head had a lot of experience in education, and I was happy reporting to her.

    But when Joseph was hired, it was clear that he’d eventually be working his way up to the department headship. He actually went to school here, was a star student, and as an employee, is a bit of a Golden Child: fits in really well, gets lots of attention and opportunity from the admin. He’s fully taken over department headship duties this year.

    And I don’t like it. He’s younger than me, and no more qualified than me (in fact, in terms of actual degrees and teaching experience, I have more education/experience than he does.) He’s a fine person and a great teacher, but it’s not like I’m a bad teacher; I’m a good teacher too, and have contributed a lot to the college. I think I would welcome his comments on my teaching as a colleague, but not as my authority. It’s frustrating to me that he’s evaluating my work, as though he’s somehow *better* at this than me. He’s not. His departmental headship simply makes me feel overlooked, as though my institution does not value my contributions as much as his. I have had a hard time feeling like I’m a valued part of my workplace, and now that he’s actually my department head (I’ve known this is coming for a long time), that feeling is even stronger.

    No advice, please. I’m just venting a bit here.

  96. cactus lady*

    I’m having a weird issue at my new job (I just started about a month ago) that I’m hoping someone has some advice for, because it is 100% mental. My last job was somewhat dysfunctional, but not too bad – however one thing that was really hard for me was that my boss did NOT want me to be assertive about ANYTHING. It was super frustrating because it is in my nature I would get talkings to about speaking up in meetings, be told to apologize for a number of things that fell well within my job description and normal business tasks, and generally told to keep my head down and not make any noise. I think at the heart of it was that her idea of how women should act in general was to be subordinate. It was really terrible and one of the reasons why I wanted to leave. Well now here I am in an awesome new job where I am in charge of a lot of things and I’m having a terrible time being assertive! Help! How can I overcome this mental block? This is not something I ever had an issue with prior to my previous job and I don’t want it to hinder me in my current one.

    2. Reba*

      There have been some open threads and letters/posts I think about leaving behind habits and mindsets from past toxic environments, so give the archives a search.

      It does take time to shake that stuff off. It’s really good that you’re aware of the context you were in (and self-aware). Good luck!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Test the waters in small ways. “I need red folders, not blue ones.” OR “I am taking an early lunch to be back for a call at 12:30.” Just do deliberate small things to see what the reaction is. This is how you retrain your brain to go back to where you once were. See, you got there once, so you CAN go back there again. But you need to prove to yourself that you will be safe in doing so. And you prove it to yourself by wading in slowly. Each day find one thing that you will be assertive about. Make it small so you are more comfortable, but keep making yourself do it.

      It takes time to build trust. And just as you want them to trust you, you have to be willing to trust them. This means sticking your neck out and seeing if they are appropriate or abusive. Keep telling yourself, trust is a two way street.

  97. Jennifer*

    Ethical dilemma for you: if you know that a manager at your work is incredibly difficult, should you warn new employees of this?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Do you mean “warn them before they take the job?” or after they are already hired?
      (I think there have been some posts about warning potential employees in very circumspect ways in some circumstances…)

      1. Jennifer*

        After they are already hired. As in, “seriously, you need to watch out for this person and kiss their ass or else you will get canned.”

        I actually warned someone last time and I thought it was going well until she got canned at the end of her probation. I didn’t bother to warn #2 because she was a temp (she applied for the permanent job and did not get it.) Now we have #3 hired.

    2. Bea W*

      I wish my boss had warned me about the person running the show (she’s not a people manager but exercises a lot of authority)! My feedback when I leave will be advice on how to address this with candidates or at least find ways to assess their willingness and ability to work with such a person. I was asked outright in the interview what I didn’t want in a new position, and was offered the job anyway. Everything out of my mouth was a spot on description of the difficult person I have to work with. WHY?! Please don’t do this to people! They will only leave. If you feel you can’t say anything, at least believe what a candidate tells you in the interview. Don’t offer the job to someone who clearly won’t tolerate or can’t handle the awfulness.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Only if you can include some suggestions that would make dealing with the difficult manager a lot easier.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I don’t think I’d go with something as generic as “incredibly difficult,” but if you’ve got actionable tips for them, that’d be a good turn.

      Something like “Hey, not sure if anyone’s told you, but Jane is really particular about how you format emails you send her. You’ll want to put your bottom line in the very first sentence, and make sure you’re not using your signature after the first email, she thinks it’s a waste of space.”

      1. Jennifer*

        I think my actionable tip would be “kiss her ass, a lot a lot a lot, do not ever make her mad, suck up and be perfect.” I wish I was making a joke. I think I said to #1 that she was difficult in private and tended to bully her employees, but at the time #1 was unfazed and said “Eh, I’ve dealt with people like that before and it was fine.” Except then I guess it wasn’t.

        I am going to have lunch with #1 soon to hear more details, but from what I heard #1 was polite enough but did not kiss manager behind enough. And I guess the manager didn’t even have much to cite when probation firing. Of course you hear different stories from everyone, but I found her easy to work with so I don’t quite think “didn’t pick up things fast enough” was the issue that manager claimed. Especially since manager went on leave for several months after the hiring and #1 was left to manage everything all alone on very little training.

        I really feel sorry for #3 because she is in the same situation as #1, i.e. moved here, except I guess she moved FOR this job. If she gets the boot after six months because she has no seniority protection like she might have had she not been new to this business….I won’t be at all shocked now after what happened to the last one. Maybe manager is just going to get rid of everyone after the probation is up by default if she doesn’t like them.

        1. Kathenus*

          I would be very cautious about anything that explicit. You don’t want comments like that attributed to you, especially to someone you don’t know well in reference to a boss that can negatively impact you in your job. I agree with Irene Adler and Countess Boochie Flagrante that giving more objective actionable advice if you have any. If you don’t, and they’re already hired, it might be risky to say more.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, I get the desire to help someone else out, but not if it’s at the expense of your own livelihood.

  98. BRR*

    How important is your title to you? I was told last year a promotion was in the works for this year and while I did receive a raise (read: salary correction) I’m now fighting for a title bump. I have a new manager and she does not seem as onboard with it even though my previous manager said something was in the works and my grand boss who was also my interim manager said to “be patient and something would be in the works for 2018.” There’s no record of this being worked on and my grand boss is a disorganized mess who doesn’t remember this conversation.

    Is this something I need to let go? While my title is somewhat below my responsibilities, it’s not grossly off. Part of me feels like title doesn’t or shouldn’t matter that much but I’m pretty frustrated because this was promised to me.

    1. Alex*

      Not at all. My position classification doesn’t have any levels, so it really doesn’t matter. I’m also the only person in my organization with this position so there’s no need to compare myself to anyone else.

    2. McWhadden*

      It may be something you need to let go practically speaking. In that nothing will change. But I don’t think you are being petty or silly or anything.

      Titles matter. Wish they didn’t but they do. It impacts how others view you (which sucks) and it impacts how you can shop around your resume when you want to look at other jobs. It’s something that matters. If it didn’t matter they wouldn’t be reluctant to give it out.

      So you have every right/reason to fight for this as long as it is feasible and not actively causing an issue.

    3. Anecdata*

      It matters to me more than I wish it did :). I think this is a pretty normal way to feel, even though some workplaces are just irrationally stingy with titles (they’re free after all!)

      But on the flip side, titles vary so much by company that as long as yours is not drastically off, know that most people outside your org will not know/realize that you are “undertitled”.

  99. Extra Anonymous Today*

    This is really more of a vent than anything else, but — in the wake of the makeup thread last week and some of the longer threads about professionalism in the workplace, it’s really been getting me down that there’s a fair few people who are going to think I’m unprofessional purely for being trans and not passing perfectly in public. I thought I was a butch lesbian for a long time so it’s not like I’m not used to my existence being considered inherently sloppy/unfashionable/ugly/shameful, but it still sucks.

    1. Lumen*

      It does suck and that’s stupid. One of the ways we as a society will move forward is pushing back on these ridiculous stereotypes (and the equally ridiculous expectation that trans and nb folks must ‘pass’ or… cis people are justified in discriminating against them?). You sound strong and confident despite your frustration, and I hope you remember every day that no one has a right to treat you poorly because the way you present your gender doesn’t 9000% match and exceed their unreasonable, meaningless expectations.

    2. Close Bracket*

      I’m sorry. Conventionally attractive, light skinned, cis women have a lot of privilege when it comes to performance of femininity. All the other women better shave their legs and wear make up. :-(

  100. Brownie*

    Make me feel less alone in my frustrations, please. Tell me about your coworkers who’re in technical/IT jobs and have been for years, but can’t handle what’s considered “basic” computer things.

    This week’s examples from my coworkers:
    – Telling me that they don’t trust any data in Excel that’s been turned into a table. Because “format as table” could have re-sorted or deleted data.
    – Keeps missing critical emails because they have over 40k unread emails in their inbox, yet refuse to learn how to put things in folders or make junk mail rules
    – Keeps missing critical emails because they have an ongoing search for the perfect “0 unread” inbox and go on mass deletions without reading several times per day
    – Was absolutely astounded by some documentation I created that had a *gasp!* table of contents in it. They treated it like some sort of miracle.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Well one of my co-workers who boasts that she worked in a high-tech agency, told me that I had deleted imported files, when I know I copied them (since Mac tends to default to copy, versus moving). (Their filing system online is so mixed up – everyone just keeps creating their own folders/subfolders, etc., so those files just probably weren’t where she thought they were.)

    2. CheeryO*

      Omg, I could go on all day – I’m not in IT, but I’m in engineering and am constantly surprised by some of the computer ineptitude that goes on around here. Coworkers who have trouble with single-click vs. double-click, who forget how to save documents and get confused about how to put their documents in our shared drive, who have trouble managing usernames and passwords to a handful of different websites/databases and constantly need to call our HQ to have them reset. Coworkers who have a desktop literally 100% covered in icons. Not knowing how to search for emails in Outlook. Being completely unable to follow a few steps to export from a database to an Excel file, and then format the data as a table for sorting (and yes, not trusting the sorted data!). Being completely unable to format said Excel table for printing. Being angry that it is not someone else’s job to export said data and format said table… ugh.

      1. Brownie*

        “Not knowing how to search for emails in Outlook” THIS. It’s reaching the point where if someone needs a piece of information that was sent out via email they ask me because the search bar is too complicated. Forget filing, it’s either mass deletions or massive inboxes and then they wonder why they can’t find anything.

    3. Tardigrade*

      Coworker’s with background adjacent to IT:
      – Insists that the poor image quality we kept experiencing from specific files would be fixed if we “converted to JPEG and took it to Kinkos” (files were already jpeg and we were not printing them)
      – Cannot properly use a shared drive or any type of file structure, has lost his own files before, and has accidentally moved and/or deleted folders on multiple occasions.
      – If files can be found, has at least 6 working versions of the file and several more versions archived (this isn’t part of our workflow; we need one file [so that it’s clear which one is in use] and only archive things when the project is complete)
      – “Knows things about computers” but needed to call support because he didn’t know if he needed to install the 32 or 64 bit version of a software.

      1. Brownie*

        Shared drives and missing files… yup. Everyone has their own idea of how things should be arranged and therefore almost daily there’s a cry of “I can’t find it, it was here before and now it’s gone” from someone on the team. The only saving grace is that if something is deleted the shared drive gets backed up every 15 minutes so we can revert to a previous version. There’s one member of the team who’s measured the attention spans of the perpetual reorganizers and buried all of their stuff 3 or 4 layers deep below the top level for safekeeping. It works surprisingly well, even if it is based on the assumption that everyone else has the attention span of a gnat.

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      “senior” programmer asked me how fast was a gigabit.
      Application libraries were stored in a folder named “test”.
      programmer who didn’t like using subroutines because they were inefficient.
      helpdesk tech who didn’t know how to use ctrl-alt-del to reboot. How they used Windows for 4 years I never did figure out.
      Spilled water on their CRT monitor and tried to dry it out by repeatedly powering it on and off. I stopped them before anything went boom.

      Thank God I retired from IT.

    5. Really Anon for this One*

      My company bills itself as IT services for the fed gov’t, which means our systems, staff, and practices have to comply with gov’t security requirements. We have people who refuse to use databases and servers to upload their data and products because they think the systems are “unstable.” (These systems are really robust and stable – I have used them many times over the years for big programs – think full IBM Rational suite, SharePoint servers with multiple backups and redundancies, and so on.) Others use non-supported file types for outdated MS Office applications. (Dude, you can’t use a Word 97 template; it’s an IA violation. We have Office 2013 (hopefully 2016 soon); use a bleeping .docx file! Then there are the large group of persons who still email files for review and want to store multiple versions with new names (rev 1 today’s date, rev 1a today’s date) in some strange listfile thing (beyond comprehension) instead of using SharePoint and checking ONE file out and in, let alone using workflows…

      And don’t get me started on the tech writers who use paragraph returns ala typewriter instead of style codes in Word. One day I showed them how I use Word .dotx and .dotm files to create templates with locked style codes and formatting. They ran for the hills, it frightened them so.

      Yeah, I am at BEC stage.

      1. Brownie*

        “IT services for the fed gov’t” Yup, that describes what I do pretty well. There’s so many security requirements and yet at least once a week one of my coworkers makes me facepalm because they can handle doing ultra-complicated-special-thing, but can’t follow basic security practices. Forget what I’d consider basic literacy in Excel or Word and heaven forbid someone ask them to do a PowerPoint, their mental processors will overload and they’ll revert back to 20 years ago. We needed a diagram of how everything was interacting, I said I’d whip one out in Visio, and one of ’em asked me why I didn’t just use MSPaint because “it’s simpler and easier”! In the moments when it’s not raising my blood pressure it’s actually fascinating to watch them as they try to justify staying with 15 year old homemade tech versus the new easier to use and more secure purchased tech, but lately those moments are few and far apart.

  101. McWhadden*

    I mentioned this yesterday. But last week I had an interview that I couldn’t make because I was violently ill. It was semi-internal (hard to explain but the same over all organization but a totally different location) and I sort of knew one of my interviewers. I have her cell phone number.

    I’m curious about what people think about texting in a situation like that? I knew the night before that I would just be too sick to go in. And I wanted to give as much notice as possible. So, I thought maybe texting would be the most considerate thing I could do. But I also felt texting in that context would be super unprofessional. But, then, calling her cellphone would be even more disruptive to her evening after hours.

    I ended up leaving a voicemail on her work phone and sent an email. But then that morning she texted ME to say she hopes I feel better and proposing a rescheduled date.

    1. MissCPA*

      I would not have sent a text. I think you did the right thing by leaving a voicemail and emailing!

  102. Catalyst*

    Does anyone have any advice for learning another language? My company is lacking in staff that speak French, and really for my position I should speak it as well (this is a recent development, we just moved into a French speaking market). I am thinking about giving Rosetta Stone a try, but thought I would see if anyone here has any suggestions to help me (and possibly my staff) better pick up a second language.

    Thanks and Happy weekend everyone! :)

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      Coffee break French is a good podcast, I’ve used the Spanish one and it’s really good and it’s free.

    3. Alex*

      I used Pimsleur audio courses before. It is more for touristy things like how to order wine or talk to someone at a hotel, but it’s a good introduction to hearing a language and picking up some basic vocabulary. You can probably find a textbook at any used bookstore and just work through it for more details of grammar. The hardest thing for me personally is finding the motivation and time to study. So anything that is fun for you is probably going to be more productive.

    4. KT*

      Seconding DuoLingo. I also found that watching cartoons dubbed / subtitled in French helped as well. Cartoons (kids’ ones) have more simplistic language than most movies or older rated TV shows. Things like Spongebob Squarepants, Captain Planet, and Foster’s Home for Imaginary Friends are pretty good for it.

    5. CatCat*

      In addition to Duolingo, children’s books are a good place for basic reading a new language.

    6. Oxford Coma*

      I’m using Duolingo, and I’m not happy with it.

      It formally teaches me nouns, but the practice sentences assume I already understand how to conjugate verbs. I don’t. I had to complete a bunch of research on the side to understand some irregular verbs that it used right from the beginning. I’m really fumbling with this app, and quickly losing patience.

    7. Reba*

      My spouse used an online course called Fluenz that, unfortunate name aside, worked well!

      If your workplace has got funds for this, why not look for Alliance Francaise classes near you?

    8. HabloUnPocoDeEspanol*

      I use Mango through my public library and they recently made modules downloadable to smart phones so that you could do them during a commute or running, without using data or needing wifi. Pretty far into the Spanish section. See what your PL has to offer–they usually have something for languages.

      1. Librarygal30*

        I’m seconding the public library option. My local public library offers Rosetta Stone for free. Check and see what they have; also check Meetup for foreign language practice groups.

    9. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’m pretty dead set against Duolingo, personally, because it has a heavy emphasis on word-for-word transliteration and therefore is less than useless when it comes to actually knowing how to say something in another language.

      Personally, especially for a reasonably common language like French, I would look for a meetup group or language exchange. There’s really nothing as solid as interacting with other people when it comes to language learning.

    10. JustShutUpAlready*

      I also like Duolingo for learning the basics of another language. The app can be pesky with notifications and reminders, though, so be sure to watch your settings. Bonne chance!

    11. Anecdata*

      I actually moved to a francophone country, for a job in a bilingual office (the other language was my native language), and found Duolingo incredibly helpful (well, also the immersion part of living in a francophone country:).

      But for what it’s worth, even after 3 years my French is not /really/ good enough for professional use. I can follow & contribute to meetings in French; collaborate with my francophone colleagues, etc – but if I’m doing formal documentation or sending anything to anyone external, you betcha it goes to a translator before it goes out. Your current staff won’t be able to just pick up a second language and operate in anywhere near the same way a fluent team would.

      1. Anecdata*

        Oh, and also – I listen to the BBC broadcasts in French when I’m making dinner! They speak /fast/ (but clearly!) and new learners will almost certainly not be able to keep up – but I found it really helpful for developing an ear for the new sounds.

    13. Mephyle*

      Definitely Duolingo for daily practice, although it’s not sufficient on its own to get you up to speed for your business needs.
      Check out frenchpod101[dot]com. I don’t know the French one specifically, but I like their programs for some other languages I’m learning. There is a certain amount of free content, and then two or three paid levels for richer and more complete content.

    14. AliceBD*

      Continuing education classes at the local community college. I took 3 semesters of Spanish because I started working on our new Spanish-language website and was responsible for making sure text was in the correct spot and it was super useful. I also used it so I would know what our Spanish-speaking CSRs were writing back to customers so I could tell them to change it if necessary. I wish I could have done more but I developed an autoimmune disease at the start of the 3rd semester and couldn’t handle anything other than my job; I made it through that semester but didn’t really retain anything, and then I stopped doing anything other than work for over a year due to spoons. It was 2 hours a week for a semester, in the evening. The classes were something like $150 per semester (did not receive college credit) and the book was used for all 4 semesters of the class so you only had to buy it once, and the professors made adjustments for students who bought an older edition of the book to save money. (I had the new edition since I got my job to pay for it.) Obviously not everyone has the time to do it but I had a great experience and highly recommend it.

      The following recommendations are based off of the 3 semesters of Spanish I took a few years ago after college, and also minoring in French in college for some French-specific notes.

      Duolingo and Coffee Break French are fine and free and work well as a supplement but I don’t think they would work well as the primary way of learning. Meetups/conversation groups are fantastic practice and I definitely recommend them. Additionally, Journal en francais facile is a free podcast from RFI (like French BBC) that is 10 minutes a day of world news from a French perspective, specifically made for people who don’t speak French fluently. It’s not for absolute beginners but once you know a little I love it for practice, since you probably already know at least some of the news stories they are discussing. You can also watch French tv news and read newspapers in French online, as well as books you already know well in English (especially children’s books) so you can practice listening/reading when you already know the story (for books, and also works for major world news).

  103. Think Tank Job Hunter*

    I’ve been looking to relocate from DC to NJ. I work at a think tank-type place in an entry level role so that means that while there’s SO MANY places in DC to look, I’m just not having luck in NJ. I’ve been looking on the usual job sites, but I can’t find much of anything in my salary range. Anyone work at a think tank before and made a switch to a different type of workplace? I’m trying to come up with some ideas. Thanks!

    1. BRR*

      Would you be able to live in NJ and commute into NYC? I imagine in NJ your best bet would be at universities, specifically Princeton or Rutgers.

  104. MissCPA*

    One more week in my current job and I start a brand new job! I am thrilled to do something else, but I am sooooo nervous about switching jobs. This was my first career job out of college and I am really sad to leave, but I was facing a lot of internal resentment and needed to get out.

    1. JobbyJob*

      Is it awkward finishing up the current job? I hear horror stories and I dread it for myself but a new job is in my future plans.

      1. MissCPA*

        It feels really weird. I gave my employer one month notice because we are in the middle of busy season, and I feel like an outsider. But I am working just as much as I would have been if I was staying and doing everything I can to leave a good impression behind. It is hard to go from being a part of the team for four years to being an outsider though, but if it had only been two weeks of this I think it would have been easier (if it hadn’t been during busy season). Good luck in your job search!

  105. Temperance*

    Poll: do you check emails first, or voicemails? Why?

    Bonus question: what is your response time for emails vs. voicemails?

    1. Temperance*

      My answers: emails always. I will respond to most emails fairly quickly, but voicemails, depending on who they are from, get a 1 – 2 day response time. I also attend a lot of meetings and other events that keep me from my phone, so whereas I can answer emails from anywhere, calls are limited.

      My reason for asking this question is that someone called me on Wednesday around 4:00 p.m. and I returned her call around 2:00 on Thursday, and the woman was very angry. (She wanted me to ask someone to sit in on a training session on their cell phone so she could listen in. For FOUR HOURS.) I wasn’t in on Wednesday. She apparently also called the org hosting the training and didn’t get a response, and she was flabbergasted that it took “so long to return a phone call”.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Always email, even if I have the rare voicemail.

      Response time depends on the person and the situation. If it’s something I can answer/take care of in a few min, and the recipient does not abuse my time, then I answer quickly. If it’s going to take a while, I will send a quick email to let them know I’m looking at it.

      I’ve worked with a LOT of people who expect everything to be done RIGHT THIS SECOND – they are the most important people in the UNIVERSE and you must do it NOW! I’ve learned to build in buffers so that I can actually accomplish the work without having them breathe down my neck. One of those buffers is to not respond to their email/call right away, even if I would for someone else. It just sets a boundary to let them know that I am human, I have many things to take care of, and I won’t be at anyone’s beck and call.

    3. NaoNao*

      I don’t really get voicemails in this current job, but when I did, I checked those first, as I assumed they were more urgent.
      My response time on VM’s was pretty much “as soon as I got the VM listened to and could ascertain the sender was in office” vs. emails can be anywhere from mere seconds to a few days.

    5. Jennifer*

      I do everything all at once since our voicemails are funneled into our emails and everything needs to be responded to ASAP.

    6. Goya de la Mancha*

      Emails then voicemails

      Almost immediate with email (will depend if the response requires more then typing action on my part), voicemail will depend on time of day/when I get a second. I get in at 7am, I’m not going to call a customer back at that time because I was raise in the “not before 9 and not after 9” mindset for phone calls.

    7. UghVoicemails*

      I check VMs first because I think they are a PITA and I want to get them over with!

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      Emails, always! My voicemail greeting explicitly says that I am frequently away from my desk and best reached via email.

      I respond to all emails within 24 hours during the work week. Voicemails get returned whenever I can return them; sometimes it takes me several days.

    9. it's all good*

      I admit I usually forget about voice mail, the blinking light does not register with me. Luckily I don’t get a lot of voice mail.

  106. Polaris*

    I spent so many years working as a temp, where my position was so precarious and my benefits almost nil, that I’m having trouble fighting off my anxiety of missing most of this week out sick from my current job. Even though it’s a full-time job, and one that I found without the help of an agency. Even though I’ve been there almost a year. Even though I’m using my earned PTO and have excellent benefits. I’ve missed four days (and was in the hospital for one of them), and my brain is convinced I’m going to be fired for it.

    1. Marcel*

      I’m sorry you are struggling with this. Have you tried seeing a therapist? This level of worrying is not healthy or normal. I apologize if this is something you have tried. I realize all anxiety is not the same but therapy has done wonders for me.

      1. Polaris*

        I have, and I am on anti-anxiety meds, but I do thank you for and appreciate your concern. If I wasn’t in therapy and on meds I would be in a much worse state. Telling myself that logically my fears are unfounded is actually helping somewhat, keeping it down to a sort of low-grade if frequent worry; before I would have either had a full-blown panic attack or talked myself into going to work anyway and probably wound up in the hospital again. I think once I’ve been working there for a more than a year, the idea that I’m new and expendable will start to fade.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this, but I’m very glad you’re out of the hospital now and that therapy and medication have been helping you.

      You’re not going to be fired for being sick. If anything, reasonable workplaces will be HAPPY you stayed home and didn’t make others sick. Staying home when sick is what people should do to protect others. This is definitely a win for you that, despite your anxiety, you stayed home for it.

  107. DC*

    Mostly just here to celebrate! Yesterday was my last day at ToxicJob, and I am so excited to be moving on. The last day consisted of one co-worker clearly upset all day about who-knows-what, my Boss realizing that no one would be able to do the technology side I handled, and a number of people stopping by to wish me farewell and say they were worried about what would happen with me gone. I’m so glad to be done, I nearly skipped home.

    I start NewJob next week, and I’m both nervous and excited! I just learned that the team I’m on is being moved from a shared office to a bullpen, so that’s not awesome, but the company is looking for more space, so I’m not overly worried, it will just be a shift in working style for me.

    Anyone have solid day-one advice for me? It’s been awhile since I did it!

    1. Lumen*

      Be easy on yourself, and on others. Remember that even though this is bound to be better than ToxicJob, it won’t be perfect, and that’s okay. Try to put yourself in an ‘explore and observe’ headspace, without judgement. Take notes even on things that don’t seem important, because you may not know yet what’s important here.

      Have a really nice lunch and something celebratory after work (whatever that is for you: a drink, a cupcake, some shopping, a movie).

    2. ToxicSurvivalSkills*

      ToxicJob probably taught you some habits that helped you cope there but may not be effective in your new position. Be aware of those habits and do not bring them to the new place of work. Be open to your new work environment and colleagues. Be positive. Avoid ToxicJob war stories and references. This is a new day and a new you. Best of Luck

  108. Parenthetically*

    I have the chance next school year to put my son in a great preschoolish program two mornings a week. The only way that will work out is if my tiny school gets enough re-enrollments from high schoolers that they can afford to pay me (so I can afford to pay for preschool) — otherwise my classes will be absorbed by other teachers and I’ll be out of a job.

    I just found out one of my favorite students is moving to a different school, which may push us under the re-enrollments we need, so no work for me and no preschool for my boy.

    I’m really sad, guys. Send me all your good vibes that things work out?

    1. Commenter Kid*

      I feel for you and I hope everything works out! My mom went through a similar situation at the tiny school where she teaches, it’s a tough situation. Sending you best wishes and THANK YOU for being a teacher!

  109. Not Today Satan*

    I wish it was the norm for employers to email people about setting up phone screens/interviews. Some do but the majority seem to call and leave voicemails. Playing phone tag while trying to be discreet at work isn’t fun.

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      ugh, email/text all day, every day if it were up to me!

      Not only is it easier to be discreet with personal info (job, medical, family, etc.) but also, our office gets shit for cell reception. So I frequently won’t get a voicemail left at 8am until 2:30pm.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Yes!! I’m managing a mass hiring process now, interviewing a couple dozen folks for about 8 of the same position, and in addition to the candidate experience, I can’t imagine that doing phone calls is in any way efficient for the hiring manager or recruiter. It’s super easy to track outreach and response in email, but via phone is just an annoying added layer of tracking, in my opinion.

  110. Bored All Day*

    After 12 years at my current company, I’m finally in the position to leave, and have found a position and start in 2 weeks. About 3 years ago, we went through a merger. It was horrible. Although it was a ‘merger’, there was a definite winning company, and a definite losing company. I was part of the losing company.

    The boss I had for the first 9 years left, a couple of folks in the department were forced to work for another department, and those that continued in my department rolled under the corresponding department in the other company. It has been a nightmare. I thrive on challenge, took a high degree of initiative, and had a boss that respected me a great deal. The new boss doesn’t share information, barely communicates, has no performance expectations that I’m aware of, and I’m not only bored to death, but don’t have access to information that I need to do anything.

    So, the new job…is with my old boss. It’s going to be amazing, and although it is a pay cut and longer commute, there’s a lot of room for growth, professional development, and opportunities. But, I’m really nervous, because I know I’ve picked up a lot of bad habits (some out of boredom, some out of trying to save my sanity), and I know the last 3 years has warped how I think (thanks AAM for pointing out that happens…it’s so hard to understand stuff when it’s happening, but the objective view helps!).

    It’s the difference between a boss that doesn’t want to change the status quo and doesn’t want to admit when he doesn’t know anything, and a boss that is confident, knowledgeable, and communicative. But, how do I police myself to get out of these bad habits?

    1. foolofgrace*

      Hopefully you’ll have enough work to do that you won’t be bored OR have time to practice whatever bad habits you’re referring to. Congratulations! Sorry I don’t have actual advice, other than to keep reminding yourself that it’s the New You.

    2. Cabinet Door Builder*

      Talk to Old Boss. Tell him exactly what’s happened. State you will do your very best to leave the bad habits behind you, yet might slip occasionally.

  111. Opulent Octopus*

    Yesterday I was dealing with some health issues while being slammed with work, and my boss called me out for having a crappy attitude about something fairly minor that went sideways, albeit in a pretty light-hearted way. I definitely do not have chronic attitude issues, if anything I have a reputation for being positive and solution-focused when there’s a real crisis. I was so far off my game physically and mentally that I would have normally called off sick, but we had a deadline and it would’ve been a real hardship for my team. I apologized in the moment and I’m certain that she and I are cool, but should I bring it up again today now that I’m feeling better? Or should I just let it lie? I don’t want it to seem like I’m dwelling on it because it really wasn’t that big of a deal, but now that I’m feeling better I feel like I should apologize properly.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Let it lie.

      It’s so hard to recognize that feedback is often so much more significant to the person on the receiving end vs. the person giving the feedback. If your boss already gave you that feedback in a light-hearted way it’s probably already out of their mind. You already apologized.

      2. Opulent Octopus*

        I needed to hear exactly this, thanks. She rarely gives me any kind of feedback or criticism of any kind (that’s a whole other problem), and I think that’s why I’m blowing it out of proportion in my mind. I’m sure she’ll have forgotten it ever happened by Monday and I need to try and do the same.

    2. nonegiven*

      I’m sorry. Next time I’m that sick, I’ll call in whether we’re slammed or not.

  112. Am I Being Penalized For Being Too Competent?*

    I currently work part-time for a nonprofit. I’m lucky enough to have a great relationship with my manager and had a conversation with her the other day that I’m thinking of leaving / job searching. She said (lightly, but still seriously) that when I leave, they’ll have to hire someone full-time to replace me because I’m so efficient that whoever takes my place will need 40 hours to do what I do in 20 each week!

    I felt flattered at the time, but the more I think about it the weirder I feel about it. Why should the (anticipated) new person receive more money + benefits for being (anticipated) less competent than me? Am I overthinking this?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Is the reason you are leaving because you need something full time, or are there other reasons? I’ve often been trapped in the “too valuable” bucket, and her statement irks me for the same reasons.

      If you’re just leaving because of needing money + benefits, then I would ask if the position can be converted to full time since she mentioned that. If there are other reasons and you are going to leave no matter what, then you just have to be annoyed and leave it at that.

      1. OP*

        Thanks for the advice/sympathy, Parenthetically and HigherEd (sorry I’m a noob at this commenting system, I hope this works). I’m currently in an admin role (but since our org is so small, I wear MANY hats, hence the “accomplishing 40 hours of work in 20 hours”) so were they to offer me a full-time position that had more officially recognized responsibilities and a different title, I would stay – but I’ve been informed that there’s no room for me to move up in the organization (also because it’s so small), so I’m actually searching for a full-time role in a higher ed institution now (our nonprofit is in the higher ed sector). Their loss, I guess.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Oh, I know exactly what you mean! In my previous dept, even though I was full time, I was very underpaid and doing many different jobs, hence the “too valuable” part. I asked for promotions and raises, and tried to carve out a career path there…but management just didn’t want to go down that road. The only thing for me to do to really advance in the area I wanted was to get a new job.

          Good luck on your job search!

    2. Parenthetically*

      I don’t think you’re overthinking it, but I may be biased — my brother’s been in a similar position, except when he left they literally couldn’t find anyone with his skill level who would work for what they’d been paying him. Allllll my sympathies.

      I think, like Higher Ed said, if you’re leaving to find full-time work, but like your current job, it might be worth a conversation. Something like, “Hey, what you said the other day got me thinking. I’d actually love to work here full-time. And I also think that if I’m valuable to this organization it would be worth trying to find the funding to do that, since you said you’d have to hire someone full-time to replace me. Would that be something we could explore?”

  113. Make an assessment.*

    First of all, thanks to Havarti for encouraging me to reapply to a reposted position (org upheaval, blah blah) – I got asked for the interview right away! Interestingly, they begin with a “culture fit” interview to give the candidate time to explore the company with an original employee. This is a company that’s about 15 years old, but is still startup-y, and the employees chosen to lead these interviews have been there for the entire time. This is the first dedicated culture interview I’ve ever had, and I’m really excited! What questions would you ask to find out the important stuff? I have a list going. For instance, what does lunchtime look like? Are colleagues eating together in teams, cross teams, alone at desks, etc.

    1. Havarti*

      Yay! :D I would ask about maybe office layout (is hot-desking a thing there?), what sort of things do they do outside company time (like volunteering or group social activities) to get a sense of what they value, and if people pitch in to help each other during crunch times.

      1. Make an assessment.*

        Good ones, especially the crunch time one! I was also trying to think about a way to ask how mistakes are handled. Not that anyone PLANS to make mistakes, but I think a good company focuses on the development to prevent future mistakes rather than brimstone.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Do you think they will tell you that you will get yelled at for half and hour and have your value to the company and as a person questioned? You will only meet with the golden children, who have never had such harsh responses bc they are golden.

  114. AllDogsArePuppies*

    So via my work, I volunteer with a program where we tutor via phone/computer first graders in reading for thirty minutes a week. Its really cool and gives struggling students one on one time they need to get up to grade level. My students seems to get distracted easily and about 8 times in the secitions, I’ll suddenly hear “okay I’m back” after a bit of shuffling silence where I tried to help her sound out words.
    Any tips on helping her focus so she can get the most of sessions. Seeing her in person is not an opiton, nor is video chatting. Its an established program that uses its own computer programing so I control her screen of works and pictures and we each talk on a phone, and nothing from the set up can change in anyway. I just needs tips and tools of things I can say/how I can say it to help her best.

    1. Emi.*

      My first thought (based on my own tutoring experience) is that she’s looking at her phone, rather than just spacing out. Next time she says “I’m back” could you ask her about what’s distracting her? Or can you talk to an adult on her end to find if she’s in a distracting environment (an environment with a smartphone at hand is a distracting environment!) and see if there’s anything they can change?

    2. Flinty*

      I don’t know how rigid the program is, but can you schedule specific breaks? 30 minutes is a lot for a first grader to focus in one sitting. When I used to work with kids, I would set an agenda and include one or two 2 minute wiggle breaks so when they were getting distracted, I could tell them they had to do one more task/5 more minutes until they could take a break.

  115. Eve*

    I want a new job because I don’t like the work/customers however the people who own my company are very nice/generous and the hours are pretty good. I’m having a hard to justifying my feeling of unhappiness and the need for a new job because of this. Any advice? I’ve always thought I could handle any work if the ”extras” were tolerable.

    1. calonkat*

      Deep breath.
      You don’t say how long you’ve been there, but if you started recently (within the last year), consider giving it more time to adjust. Make sure that “different” isn’t the part you are actually disliking.
      Making lists of the pros and cons can be useful to help organize your thoughts and help you determine what you might be looking for in a different work place, and if something in the current workplace could be modified to help you be more satisfied. After all, if you discover one specific thing is the source of most of your unhappiness, maybe that could be removed from your job responsibilities. Or you’d know that you wanted to look for a job that did NOT involve that thing.

      1. Eve*

        I’ve been here 18 months. I’m bored, hate the new responsibilities I’ve been given (backward processes they seem unwilling to change) and the customers seem to be getting worse but also we make it hard to work with us (again backward processes no one will update).

    2. Havarti*

      I think a core part of being happy at your job is liking the work you do. It’s kinda like being in a relationship with someone you don’t like but they pay for your meals. Ok, great, you get free meals or whatever but is it really worth being miserable? Or a cake made of dirt and gravel covered in delicious frosting is still a horrible cake. Can you afford to look for another job? Or is it a case of you have to stay because of x reason?

    3. Windchime*

      You actually don’t really need to justify your feelings of unhappiness. You are unhappy and you are thinking about getting a new job, and that’s perfectly OK. Maybe just put some feelers out and see what’s out there? We spend a huge part of our waking hours at work, and it’s OK to want those hours to not be unhappy hours.

  116. Cathy*

    Hello,

    I have a real dilemma. I have been with my current company for the past 6 years. The last two years, the two bosses decide that they will not be giving out raises anymore, they will only concentrate on giving bonuses at the end of the year. Well the bonuses are never anything to write home about. I would so much rather have a raise. I spoke to my boss a couple of weeks ago about a potential raise and he tells me again if I concentrate on my accounts and bring in big business, I’ll get a large bonus. But these are promises I get every year. And even if I do my job well beyond expectation, if a client drops us, then my company can use this reason to say – well we didn’t do so well this year because of *insert reason* so we cannot give you a big bonus.

    Anyways I’ve been feeling very discontent in my position. I want to quit as I feel like this company is not paying me as they should. There is no incentive for me to stay and since there has been a few lay-offs recently – I end up doing more than previously but not getting compensated for it.

    And I can’t even talk to my other boss about it because he literally only hire Koreans and ignores all the non-Koreans in the company. I feel like I work harder and quicker than some of my coworkers but I am also not getting the recognition for it because of my background.

    I can go on and on because there are so many things wrong with my company. I don’t know what to do. Should I just be brave and quit? I have enough money saved up to do this. And I don’t think being here is good for my mental health as I go home and cry to my fiance all the time.

    1. Opulent Octopus*

      If you can hang in there until you get a new job, that would probably be for the best. For whatever reason, fair or not, employers are more attracted to candidates who are currently working. I would quit, though. Bonuses are great and all, but the uncertainty means you can’t plan a budget the way you can when you get a raise and have regular income coming in. That’s a totally reasonable thing to quit over. Unless things get so bad that that it becomes abusive or your health is severely affected, I’d try to stick it out. Job searching always helps me get a dose of perspective, because when you see the garbage going on you can console yourself with knowing you won’t be dealing with it much longer.

      1. Cathy*

        Yes you’re right. But the thing is I have been job searching for literally one whole year. When I get contacted for a job – I always compare it to my current job (what if it’s worse? what if I don’t get along with my coworkers? At least at this current company I know the drill. Is it worth taking a pay cut right now?) I feel so paralyzed from job hunting sometimes. I tell myself it is okay to take a pay cut but then I get “beer goggles” thinking about my current company – “oh it’s not so bad” “oh I should just stay for a year” I always tell myself this and then the opportunity to leave the company disappears and I’m miserable again.

        I know I have to change my mindset since all I want to do now is bang my head against the wall.

        ARGH! OKAY IT’S FRIDAY!! I’LL HAVE THE WEEKEND TO RECHARGE AND TO LOOK FOR OTHER OPPORTUNITIES!! Thanks for listening and helping me.

        1. Opulent Octopus*

          This is all sooooo familiar! I went through the same thing after staying too long at a dysfunctional workplace. Devil you know, and all that. Every place does have its problems, but some are definitely easier to tolerate than others. I finally had enough and took the leap, and where I ended up is miles beyond where I came from. My boss isn’t perfect and yeah, a couple of my coworkers annoy me from time to time, but they’re all decent people who treat each other respectfully. Those places exist, and if you keep an eye out for red flags you’ll more than likely land somewhere great.

    2. J.B.*

      Apply for other jobs first if you can. If you quit make sure you have a general plan for what to do next (although it is fine for that plan to start with a period of decompressing.) Good luck and internet hugs.

      1. Cathy*

        Thank you so much. I really want to take a couple of weeks (maybe months) off for myself.
        Anyways – thank you for your good vibes!

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      I would keep the job until you get a new one, since you said you’ve been looking for a year now. I agree bonuses aren’t the same as raises, which build on one another to increase your income over time.

    4. Artemesia*

      Don’t quit but make getting a new job your primary focus. Much of US business is moving to this scam of bonuses instead of salary increases which is one of many reasons wages are so stagnant. No guarantee the next place won’t head that way too, but don’t punish yourself by quitting before you have something lined up if you can stand it.

  117. someone else was using the same name*

    Hey everyone. Thanks to everyone’s advice, I am going to my third interview with a new company next week, and I think I may get an offer. It is time to move on to a new challenge, which is why I am looking, but all of the sudden I feel anxiety about putting in my notice. This was my first job after college and my boss was great, and I feel a little guilty leaving. Is this normal? What is the best way to move past these feelings?

    1. beanie beans*

      Totally normal feeling! Try to remember that EVERYONE has done this at some point, and that it’s not a personal slight against your boss or the company. They may be crushed but they’ll understand!

    2. Murphy*

      I second what beanie said. It’s not personal. The desire to move on doesn’t indicate that you hate the job, or that your boss wasn’t good to you. It’s just not the best fit for you where you’re at right now.

      And also, they’ll go on without you! They may be sad to see you go, but they’ll be OK once they’ve hired someone else.

  118. Handle It!!*

    Annoyed. Our team of 3 splits up a week’s team work (emails) into days. I take MW, #2 takes TR, and the newest member #3 takes F. TR and F’s constantly remain unanswered/unread. I swear they both just hope that people send reminder emails on MW so that I do it instead. Futher, #2 called me recently to tell me she couldn’t remember what days were hers…*eye roll* don’t play dumb with me, woman!!!! She damn well knows her days are T/R, the days with the most unfinished work!!! Aaahhhhh!

  119. Overeducated needs a new name*

    Has anyone here successfully adjusted to a longer and more inconvenient commute? How did you reorganize your life routines to make up for lost time? I’m starting a new job a week from Monday and getting really anxious that the commute will destroy my hard-won work-life balance. The sad thing is it’s only 2 miles from my current work, I just can’t drive there! I’ll be going from about a 25 minute car or 35 minute bike commute to a good hour of walking/public transit or biking in the morning (worse if there are transit delays). With afternoon day care pickup, my commute home will go from 40 minutes to around 70 on the bike or 90 with transit.

    The job is the right and necessary move, a house move may be in the cards in the future depending on other factors, but for now I’m already freaked out about how the commute will impact my mornings and evenings. Having trouble getting excited about the job. Any advice or coping mechanisms?

    1. CatCat*

      I had a similar commute situation. I think you have to accept that you may not be able to “make up for lost time” and that it’s okay to let some lower priority balls drop at home, especially during the week.

      Public transit is a good time to do any reading, watching shows, or listening to podcasts that you might have done during down time at home. Public transit can also be a good time to work on productive activities; when I’m on the bus, I will sometimes respond to personal email, work on meal planning and grocery list, or brain dump any stuff that needs to be done at home this week (often reserved until the weekend).

      Biking is a little trickier since you can’t really do activities other than bicycle. But it is a good time to get exercise in and clear head space.

      1. Overeducated needs a new name*

        If I can bike most days I’ll be happy with that, I don’t get enough exercise and it will also get me home faster. But I’ve never managed to make it a daily thing, and between weather, sickness, and bike repairs this winter I’ve barely done it at all. So I’m hoping but not counting on it.

        1. CatCat*

          Totally okay to vary things up. Sometimes I bike the whole way, sometimes bus + walk, sometimes bus + bike.

          I want to get back into it as the weather improves. I’ve gotten lazy since my spouse has been available to drop me off/pick me up the past couple months, but that will change soon.

    2. artgirl*

      You might feel crappy about it at first but give it a few weeks to months to adjust. I have a 90+ minute commute each way and the first few months I think I was truly depressed. It was such a huge change and decrease in my autonomy that I really struggled. But with time I found plenty of great podcasts, solidified a library routine, and generally adjusted my mindset that this is what’s needed, and I’ll be OK.

      Good luck! Congrats on the new job!

      1. Overeducated*

        Thank you! I’ll give myself a month or two for an adjustment period, expect it to be rough, and not expect it to last forever.

    3. SadNeedle*

      I decided early on in my long commute that I would use the time to improve myself. The difference is that I drive… So on the way to work I listen to public radio news and sometimes finish listening in my office. On the way home, I practice Spanish using an app OR listen to audio books. The audio books are a mix of professional non-fiction and entertainment fiction, depending on my mood.

      I also installed a dash cam and will occasionally post a video for my friends to see the crazy driving I see on a daily basis. I have even submitted a video of an accident that happened in front of me to the police. May be even MORE necessary for a biking to work.

      1. Overeducated*

        Wow. Coming home I bike with my kid in a seat on the back so I hope a dash cam for accidents is not necessary! Good for you being a concerned citizen, though.

    4. foolofgrace*

      I had a driving commute once that was 70 minutes on the way to work and sometimes close to two hours coming home. At first I was really frustrated and angry, but then I realized that I had to change my attitude to one of acceptance. I also listened to NPR as another responder here does. I couldn’t just quit the job but I knew I didn’t want to be angry so much of the time, so I just … accepted it. Sorry I can’t be more help.

    5. Windchime*

      I did. I went from a 15 minute commute to one that is 45 minutes each way when I drive, and up to 90 minutes each way if I take the bus or train. For over a year, I took public transportation and used the time to listen to podcasts, read, or nap. Due to personal circumstances, I had to start driving twice a week and I realized that I loved it, especially once I shifted my hours to come in earlier. I now leave the house at 5:15 AM and am sitting at my desk by 6. The nice thing is that I get to leave around 2 or 2:30 (before rush hour starts) and I can get home in 30-40 minutes.

      I listen to podcasts or music each way. I love the Hamilton soundtrack and will often listen to that during my commute.

  120. anon yet again*

    Very long, my apologies.
    I posted several weeks ago about the incredible stress at work and how I was ready to quit, but actually talked to my supervisor about it (“What Would Alison Say” was literally my thought process to get there) and it got some better. Well, the support is still there, but hey, my sister (who never gets sick) was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, we were all sharing a house, so everyone is splitting up so she can move closer to her daughter and doctors, I bought a condo, am selling all my possessions to fit INTO a condo, and suddenly the fact that a new program is a complete disaster isn’t important at all!! Quite frankly I am just assuming that the program will all work out (statewide funding for major programs, eh, it’s easy, right?) at this point, because life. And there is no backup for my position because it’s a government job, and we’ve been in a hiring freeze and short staffed for 10 years now, so with retirements, everyone is already doing 3 jobs! Thanks shortsighted legislative mandates!

    My supervisor and entire management team have been awesome, and I have permission to take whatever time I need with no notice or work from home and they will make everything work. They also know that I will get everything done as soon as possible and that I do understand the importance of my position, but it’s good to know if my sister calls and needs me, I can just grab my computer and work from home without needing to get permission.

    In summary, my management is awesome, some programmers suck, life can suck, and I so wish work stress was my concern again :( Thank you Alison and the commenters here for having a positive impact on my daily thoughts and routines. So much better than many places on the internet!

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m so sorry to hear how overwhelming life has gotten, and how much worse than the work stress it is. It sounds like you have some good perspective on what matters, and I wish your sister the best health possible and you lots of good time with her.

  121. GriefBacon*

    I’m going crazy waiting to hear back about the job I interviewed for 2.5 weeks ago. I know it isn’t that long to wait, but I also know that they finished interviews 2 weeks ago and they were planning on making a decision by early last week. (I also know that the person leaving the position dropped down to 20 hr/wk starting March 1).

    I haven’t wanted to reach out/check in with them yet, because I previously worked at the organization (and had essentially the same role I’m currently up for), up through Thanksgiving. I also know that the hiring committee is crazy busy — the VP who was the supervisor of the role I’m up for left 2 months ago, at the beginning of the hiring process, and isn’t being replaced at this time, so the hiring committee is also covering all of the VP’s responsibilities. So I get it! But at the same time…I wanna know!

    At what point do I check in? Assuming I don’t hear anything today, do I reach out Monday? Later next week? Never, and just wait until they reach out to me?

    1. atexit8*

      A decision by early next week can actually mean March 16 or may even get postponed.

      I would touch base on March 20. Never on a Monday.

      Good luck!

    2. fposte*

      Did they tell you they’d be in touch early last week or was that just when they’d make a decision? I wouldn’t check back earlier than a week from Monday–I am skeptical about the decision date and also would want to include padding time for references, first choice negotiations, etc. And my question would be the time frame for the decision, so I’d know how far out of my mind to put the situation.

      Keep in mind that checking back and knowing are almost always two completely different things. They’re not hanging around saying “Ah, don’t bother to notify GriefBacon; she’ll get in touch soon enough.” What people who check back usually hear is that the process is taking longer than expected and they hope to be in touch soon; if it’ll keep you occupied for the next week or so, pretend they already told you that.

      Good luck on the job, though!

  122. Nervous Accountant*

    I don’t know if this is a work or non work thread but I have no idea how to handle my grief at work. Most of the time I’m fine but there have been days where I can’t stp crying or being sad and missing my dad.

    As much as I’ve complained this last month, I enjoy the craziness bc it helps me think less about him.

    I don’t know what I’ll do when tax season ends and I have more time to think.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I’m so sorry. I’ve been there. There is no good way to handle it.

      For me, it was giving myself permission to be slower. If I felt like I was going to cry, to get up from my desk and find a quiet spot. If I felt myself really starting to spiral, I opened one of the anti anxiety apps on my phone. Even though it’s not anxiety, I found the breathing exercises forced me to focus on something else for a few minutes. Then I could return back to a work mindset for a while.

      I also set teensy goals to get through the day and gave myself permission to stop after I achieved one. Often that would lead to more. For example – the day I had to return to work I told myself that to make the day successful all I had to do was put my hand on the doorknob. That’s it. If I did that and it was too much, I could call in. (It wasn’t.) Then it was walking through the door. Down the hallway. Etc. As the days went by, the goals got bigger. By keeping myself focused on whatever chunk of time I could handle, I could get myself through that next chunk of time coming up.

      1. anon yet again*

        I’m copying this into a text file for future reference. I’m already crying at work (posted above), and no one has died yet.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          The key, I’ve found, is starting TINY. I legit started with sitting up. Not getting out of bed. Just sitting up. The other is to honestly give yourself permission to stop. And then choosing to set another mini goal.

          This might seem a little odd…….but I would also say them out loud to myself in the third person, “Okay, WDP. To make today successful all you have to do is sit up. That’s it. If you can’t do anymore than that, that’s okay. That is all you need to do today.” (Obviously I only did this in private, but when my brain was coated in the Grief Fog it was helpful to actually hear it.)

    2. sheila_cpa*

      One thing that’s worked for me is “scheduling” my grief. Okay, I’ll tell myself, you gotta get through the morning, but at lunch you can go sit somewhere and cry for ten minutes. Or the day is booked but when you get home it’s a free-for-all.

      It’s so, so hard and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.

    3. Storie*

      What helped me a lot was joining a grief group. I never thought I’d be a support group person, but it really helped to know I would be going and having that time to talk about it, hear other’s experiences, work through it. It made getting through the day easier, with that time carved out for it at the end of the day. But grief is so non-linnear–I think of it like rogue waves that hit you when you don’t expect it. So just do your best for now and don’t be hard on yourself. You don’t get over it, but you do get used to it and it will get easier.

  123. Bantha Pudu*

    This might be an elementary question, but should you always send a cover letter, even if the job ad doesn’t specifically request it?

    2. Kuododi*

      Sorry to intrude but had to tell you as a sister Star Wars nerd…. I adore your user name!!! ;). Best wishes!!!

  124. Annoyed anon*

    My boss mocks me- when I talk or ask him a question, he’ll say, “blah blah blah” or imitate me. He doesn’t do it to others. Is there any way to get him to stop?

    1. Snark*

      He’s being incredibly unprofessional and I think his behavior verges on workplace harassment, so I think the person you need to talk to is his boss and HR, personally. You can say, “You do this a lot, and it’s starting to feel like harassment, please stop,” but I don’t think he will.

    2. beanie beans*

      That’s terrible! Next time he does it can you pause and say “Fergus, this is awkward, but it feels like you’re mocking and dismissing my question and it bothers me. Is there something about my work that you’re not happy with?”

      Or you could bring it up next time you have a 1-on-1 if you have them, if having something prepared sounds less intimidating than trying to respond on the fly.

    3. Lois Lane*

      Wow. I would stop, mid-sentence, arch an eyebrow, look at him icily, and say, “Excuse me?” Let him then sputter and try to excuse his inexcusable behavior.

      If it were only a case of him saying, “blah blah blah” I would suggest that maybe he’s short on time and/or you’re more verbose than he prefers, but in that case, he needs to be more polite and say, “I’ve only got a minute. Can you come back later/shoot me an email?” instead of being so rude. If that were the scenario, ” I would stop and say, “Clearly you’re busy. I’ll come back later.” But he’s also mocking and imitating you, so it’s not just a case of being short of time. He’s just a jerk.

    5. Plague of frogs*

      Putting a pillow over his face should do the trick, and sounds like it’s overdue.

  125. Laura C. Croft*

    I work at a nonprofit. I’m more than a bit miffed because one of my colleagues recently left. I’m understand people leave jobs but it’s how she left. She didn’t want to transition out, give more notice or help to transition, interview or train her replacement. She was always so passionate and cared for our mission and clients. I don’t deny that things are disorganized here and our boss isn’t the best. But I can’t understand why she would just leave how she did, basically cutting us off and jumping ship. I don’t think I could ever do this. I guess I am just venting, this is my first post and I figured this is as good of a time as any. I realize this is bothering me more than it should.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think sometimes we feel betrayed by colleagues when they do this, but assuming she gave notice, than she really didn’t do anything wrong. You might want to try to think about “why” this is bothering you so much to try to suss out why you’re dwelling. This wasn’t personal, if that helps any.

    2. NottaCarlotta*

      That transition period can be very weird and awkward and training your replacement is not something most people do, IME. That there’s issues with her leaving with what I assume is adequate notice (two weeks to one month) points to a deficiency in your department: the lack of cross-training to mitigate people resigning or quitting. You can care for your work and your clients but ultimately she has to do what is best for her and can you really blame her?

    3. Close Bracket*

      It’s work. It’s not personal. And remember, if they had to let someone go, they would cut them off without transition.

  126. Morning Glory*

    I just had an article pitch accepted by a publication, and signed the contract this week – this will be my first published article, and the pay is about double what I expected. Just wanted to share a small, but exciting victory!

  127. AnotherLibrarian*

    I am interviewing by phone in the first stage of the academic library hiring process for a job in a few weeks. What are the best interview questions you’ve ever asked or had a candidate ask? I’m particularly trying to suss out if this job has growth potential, as I am unsure if I want to take a lateral move.

    1. AcademicSchacademic*

      Had a skype interview recently, myself in the same field. I asked “what are some wish list projects that you have in mind for this position in the next 1-2 years?”

      Not a fan of the whole Skype interview experience–wish it was just an ole phone interview -_-

  128. BEC*

    Well, I thought I got here early enough!

    I have had this question for a few weeks. I am at serious BEC stage with my co-worker and I need some advice.

    Background: We have worked together for 2 years. She works for one of our vendor companies and no one in our department has any say or is asked to give feedback for her reviews or can really manage her/discipline her/address ongoing issues with any with weight. We do but she knows we aren’t able to actually do anything if she doesn’t follow our direction.

    She is massively incompetent, but most of time I think she is just playing stupid. She continually pushes work over on others, frequently “forgets” procedure and policy, doesn’t follow direction and makes frequent mistakes.

    About 50% of what each of us does is tied together, but I have responsibility for the actual programs, so over the past few months I have done some things to become a better project manager and reduce my stressful interactions with her – like turning work back on her when she asks me to do things, just being a better overall project manager,etc. This site has helped a lot with that.

    HOWEVER, 2 weeks ago she moved into the office right next to mine. I literally can’t stand it, and she wants to be personally friendly, which I don’t. But at this point even professional interactions drain me, and I definitely don’t want to exchange pleasantries.

    Any advice, though, for ways to get over my general frustrations and at least be “professionaly warm”. I have no problem doing this with other co-workers. I keep work and personal separate but enjoy hearing about others plans for the weekend, etc. I just can’t even stand the sound of her voice – and now I have to see/hear her every day.

    Advice? Or maybe I just needed to vent.

    1. Havarti*

      Man, that sucks. Do you have to be “warm?” I’d aim for just professionally polite and limit the small talk with her.

    2. Opulent Octopus*

      One thing that helped me was to start thinking of my coworkers from hell like customers. Fortunately for me they all moved on (some voluntarily and some of them not) within about a year. All you can do is be your best self. You certainly don’t have to engage in a small talk, though. Just a quick smile and hi, and ducking out when they show up with a polite excuse about getting back to work is fine.

    3. Artemesia*

      Can you pull back in your head and make it a performance that is part of your work — much like the approach of viewing colleagues who are annoying as an anthropologist would. Make it entertainment.

  129. Linda Evangelista*

    Hi! I’m at my breaking point with my job.

    Its been nearly two years. I work in an office of about 7 people, and I answer directly to big boss (and sort of answer to little boss… its unclear). I consider my relationship with big boss good; however, he has the tendency to be rude and defensive in situations that don’t call for it. Example – “Hey, we’re a tiny freaking office and I’m swamped, any way I could take this call at my desk instead of the conference table with you?” Response: “No one is busier than me, you can come upstairs.” Little boss just likes to interject because he likes to hear himself talk – he is never helpful.

    My problem is I’ve reached my absolute breaking point (ex. I broke down crying in an all staff meeting), and I really need help not immediately resigning from this job and burning this bridge. I’m in the interview process with a couple of other opportunities but I know nothing is guaranteed and I don’t want to quit without the promise of money coming in. But big boss publicly shamed me via group email to the office, and I really have no more capacity to deal with the emotional stress on top of an already maxed out workload.

    I’m sitting here trying to tackle other things and I’m just SO angry, I can’t get anything done. I physically cannot bring myself to do it. I can’t think.

    1. Lois Lane*

      I found myself at a similar breaking point in a previous job. When I finally decided that I was definitely going to leave the job and began to look and interview elsewhere, my perspective began to change. I still did my job and tried to do it well, but I just didn’t care as much. Stuff that used to bother me didn’t bother me as much because I had already begun the process of mentally checking out. When the next crisis or situation happens, take a deep breath and think, I’ve already got one foot out the door. I will soon get a new job and won’t have to put up with this anymore. And use the situation as motivation to spur your ongoing job search. Good luck!

    2. Lumen*

      I read a book recently called ‘Emotional Agility’ by Susan David, and it’s very good, but I’ll summarize a strategy here that she writes about:

      1) Show up to how you’re really feeling about your current situation. It sounds like you’re right on the verge of this, but still focused on external assessments of the situation and what is good/bad about it. But really check in with the feeling of it: the core “I feel sad” “I feel angry” “I feel threatened”, etc. Identify where the feeling is in your body and describe it to yourself: “My chest feels tight” “My face feels hot”, etc. It’s a small step, and you don’t have to sit there and wallow in it.

      2) Step out and create distance between what you’re feeling and who you are. You feel sad, not “I AM sad.” You feel angry! Anger is not who you are. You feel shamed, but nothing about you is shameful. All these emotions are happening, but you are a smart person and you know that they will go away later, so there’s no reason to give them all the power in the world.

      3) Examine your ‘want to’ motivations in your current situations. This one is hard because you don’t want to be there… but you do want the security of your pay until you find a new job. You don’t want to burn this bridge and walk away immediately, but you do want to feel better. When you’re miserable (and it sounds like you are, you have so much of my sympathy right now) it’s hard to find the ‘want to’, but there is something you want. Focus on that and make it, not all the negative feelings, the center of your thoughts.

      4) Tweak your situation in small, workable ways. Not big, drastic changes. Tweaks. More frequent breaks. Taking breaks alone to breathe, stretch, take a short walk, sip a cup of tea, whatever helps you feel more centered and calm. Or even more creative things: when a boss calls, you let it ring 1 extra time before you pick up. After all, who cares if they get impatient? You’re out of there soon. A boss is rude to you and you decide to let yourself laugh at their ridiculous behavior (to yourself, not outwardly) instead of getting angry. After all: who cares if they’re a jerk? You’re gonna be out of there soon. You’re derided in an email, so you shake your head at how unprofessional they are! After all, who cares if they don’t realize how great you are? You’re out of there soon. You can’t get anything done? So make yourself look busy and don’t do more than you absolutely have to right then. After all: who cares if you accomplish THEIR goals? You’re out of there soon.

      Best of luck in the job search!

      1. foolofgrace*

        >when a boss calls, you let it ring 1 extra time before you pick up

        I phreakin’ love this. Taking the power back in whatever way you can.

        Smile smugly during that extra ring.

  130. Kat Em*

    What’s the deal with employers making a job offer, and then asking for references afterwards? These folks are asking us to break our lease and move to another state (which we’re willing to do), but suddenly the offer is “contingent on references.” We’re not expecting a bad reference, but do they really think we’re going to go forward with a cross-country move on the basis of a contingent offer?

    Is this normal now?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      No, it’s not. Or at least, it’s not among reasonable people. I’d talk to them about that. Did you not already provide them references?

    2. atexit8*

      What does your offer letter say?

      Some of mine have contingencies such as background and drug tests.

      If this is what they are doing, then I would give 2 weeks notice and break a lease only after they give you an all clear and not before!

    3. Close Bracket*

      Have you already negotiated a start date? If not, just give them the references and wait to hear back. If so, when you give them the references, tell them you need to talk about a new start date to allow for reference checking time and a finalized offer so that you can give a notice period that allows a smooth transition period at your current job. Or just ask when they expect a finalized offer. Don’t mention the lease. Not to the hiring manager, anyway. If you are working with HR on any kind of moving assistance, you can discuss that with them.

    4. ANon.*

      Not sure if it’s normal, but it’s also definitely not NOT normal.

      My (very large) company makes offers contingent on references. When I was hired, they required that the references were from direct supervisors, including the supervisor at the job I was in.

    5. Rookie Manager*

      Totally normal in the UK. However it would be reasonable to not give your notice until contracts are signed if uou have any concerns.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah i would definitely not give notice or make arrangements until you get the final offer

    6. Windchime*

      Before my hiring process was complete at the job I have now, it was required that they talk to my then-current manager, Sue. So, depending on what Sue said to the reference checker, I could have not only missed out on the new job but Sue would also then know that I was actively job searching. My new boss-to-be, Jane, agreed to wait until the background check was complete and all other references had been contacted before contacting Sue. It all worked out and Jane agreed that contacting a candidates current boss is a terrible policy, but that’s what the organization requires.

  131. Matilda Jefferies*

    CBC Radio had a segment this morning about the pronunciation of people’s names. We often discuss it here, usually from the perspective of the person whose name is being mispronounced, and how annoying it is. They talk about that in the interview, but they also touch on the fact that it can have a real impact on your career – at a certain level, people whose names are perceived to be “difficult” can also be perceived to be “difficult” themselves, with all the expected impacts on interviewing, promotions, etc.

    http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/metro-morning/segment/15525990

    1. Jennifer*

      I can see that. If people are literally afraid they will say your name wrong and tick you off, it has to affect something.

      1. Jennifer*

        I’m actually pretty concerned for my assistant since her first name is a super hard to say and spell long mouthful. Obviously she’s gotten hired so far and she prefers her much shorter nickname anyway, but …. I kinda worry careerwise for stuff like this.

    2. Ann O.*

      I’m sad that there’s no transcript because this is a subject that I have strong feelings about, but strong feelings that are against what seems to be the current trend. (my name gets mispronounced and misspelled as does my sister’s, so I experience the frustrations with that, but I’m also frustrated by discussions that don’t acknowledge how language and cognitive development actually work. Pronouncing someone’s name correctly is not always a matter of trying.)

  132. Oh so anon for this one...*

    Oh dear. So, one of my close colleagues at work (let’s call him Fergus) was recently promoted to first-line management and will be in charge of a newly-formed team. Technically there are two teams doing the same thing, with Fergus in charge of one, but the other team’s manager just left and Fergus is temporarily in charge of both. Everyone on these teams is experienced and good enough performers to have survived recent layoffs; they’re also exempt, mostly graduate-educated, and used to a lot of autonomy.

    Fergus had his first team meeting this week. I’ve worked closely before with people on this team and OMG did I ever get a swarm of irate IMs from some of them after that meeting. He spent a lot of time talking about PIPs and corrective actions. (???) He laid out his new rules for the team, which I won’t mention in detail but are horribly micromanaging and take away huge chunks of autonomy. He forbade them from socializing during work hours.

    None of the people who IMed me are willing to speak up after the meeting (some tried during the meeting and were rudely shot down). They’re afraid for their jobs, understandable since Fergus put so much emphasis on PIPs before even talking about anything else. Team members are already sharing job postings with each other.

    I don’t know what to do with this information. Fergus is someone I’ve respected for as long as I’ve known him (several years), and I always thought he would make a great manager. The team members who were telling me about the meeting are also people I respect. I have a reputation as someone willing to have the hard conversations with management (AAM training!), but this isn’t my team. Not my circus, not my monkeys, and I should almost certainly keep out of it. But… I don’t want to see the team fail because it impacts our entire division badly. I don’t want to see my colleagues leave and really don’t want them staying but feeling trapped in a toxic team. I don’t want Fergus to fail this badly. But it’s not my circus.

    So I don’t know what to do, if anything. Stand by and watch everything fall apart, knowing the huge negative impact that will result? Speak up with someone who can do something about it?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Emphasizing PIPs for an entire team? That’s a pretty messed up way of approaching management.

    2. McWhadden*

      It’s possible he’s just trying to establish his authority with a group who has known him as other than a manager and will chill out with time.

      I’m not sure if there is much you can do here.

      1. Oh so anon for this one...*

        I think you’re right on establishing the authority, but what’s driving this behavior is puzzling. He has been in a role similar to what his team does but as far as I know he has never been a direct peer of anyone he’s managing. He’s been a highly visible leader in our division, just not a as manager until now. He and I have discussed management styles and this behavior is pretty much the opposite of what he described as the way he wanted to lead a team.

        But yeah, there’s not much I can – or should – do.

        1. Betsy*

          I think you should talk to him about it. I’ve been unfortunate enough to work under a few new brand new managers, and they often start by pulling rank and enforcing their authority. I think this is the cartoonish image of ‘what managers do’ that they have in their minds. A few months in they wonder why they’re almost universally disliked and don’t realise it’s been mostly due to their own behaviour. I think new managers need to be told explicitly that management is about trying to build a productive team and develop people’s strengths, and although having authority is part of the position, the main aim is not just to exercise control over people.

        2. Thlayli*

          Since you have discussed management styles before you could use that as an opening to initiate another general discussion about management styles.

          Maybe something like “so Fergus remember when we were talking about management styles the other week? I was wondering if you still think the same way as you said, now you’ve had some actual experience instead of just the theory?”

          Or whatever else makes sense context.

          Then use the conversation as a way to gauge how he views his behaviour, and maybe give some subtle hints without being outright critical.

    3. Snark*

      Do you have a close enough relationship with Fergus to say, “Hey man, your team is on the edge of mutiny after that meeting – I get that you need to put your stamp on things and establish yourself as their manager, but talking about PIPs and clamping down new restrictions is going to make people run for the hills”?

    4. Little Bean*

      Oh dear. Since you say you are a close colleague of Fergus, I feel like this is something you could talk to him about. But since it sounds like this meeting was really extreme, my worry is that you won’t be able to convince him to change enough to make a difference. (We went through a similar thing at a previous job – one really bad meeting was enough to prompt everyone to start job searching and half the team was gone within 6 months.) I agree that it’s totally not your circus, not your monkeys but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t say something to a friend. I think it just means that you shouldn’t personally carry the anxiety, and if Fergus doesn’t listen to you, oh well, you tried.

  133. BigSigh*

    Nothing bad to report. Just wanted to say I got a new job. This is the end of my second week at the new place and it’s going great! Everyone is so nice and so supportive. The training is amazingly thorough. I’ve never been happier.

  134. Ms. Meow*

    We’re finally hiring (!!!) and I’m on the hiring committee. We got a resume for a candidate that has skills and experience we’re looking for. It turns out that they graduated from the same program in the same year as a friend of mine. Is it acceptable to reach out to this friend in a “hey, what do you think about this person” kind of way? They went to school 10 years ago, and I know I’ve changed in that amount of time, so would it even be relevant?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would. I mean, you lose nothing asking. Of course, it’s totally possible your friend will be like, “I have no recollection of that person.” Which is how I feel about 99% of the people I went to school with.

      If they have a super negative view of the person though, you will have to assess the situation with the knowledge that it has been ten years.

      1. Cercis*

        I agree. Most of my memories of my classmates are either 100% good or 100% bad. Clearly they weren’t really that way, but I definitely clearly remember the sexist pigs that I graduated with and the years have dulled any memories of any redeeming qualities they had. And the “champions” in the program that said “dude, not cool” – but I assume they’re probably still good men.

        I would ask, but I’d use it as a starting point and follow up with people more current. It’s entirely possible some of the sexist pigs in my program have had a “road to Damascus” moment and realized the errors of their ways. Most likely most of them haven’t (given the continued sexism in the industry, which includes a top gov’t official stepping down recently after reports of sexual harassment) but I live in hope that some of them have.

  135. Storie*

    Invoice/payroll question: Please tell me if this is standard, and I just don’t realize. I have been consulting for a Canadian company (I am in the US) for a few months. When hired, I was told they pay invoices within 30 days. Well, turns out it’s more complicated than that. Invoices only go into the queue on Fridays, and then are paid 30 days later but only every other Friday. So because I am West Coast, the invoices I’ve sent on a Friday have not been received until the following Monday–and then not put into processing until 5 days later. Currently, I have an invoice submitted 1/26, which I guess wasn’t technically received until 1/29 (although I sent it early in the day PST). I was told it’s in the queue to be paid today, 3/9. But so far, nada. I will give it the rest of the day. But this is quite a delay, no? When companies say they pay within 30 days, should it not happen with in 30? It’s a huge company, so it’s hard to imagine they are strapped for resources. There’s an admin I have emailed to get a better sense of their process, but I can sense her annoyance with me. I’m annoyed with them–but I want to see if I’m justified. Thanks for your insights!

    1. atexit8*

      In my opinion it should be 30 days from when they receive it.

      But this is their policy, so you need to decide whether you want to deal with the additional 7 days.

      1. Storie*

        thank you. trying to decide how much of a squeaky wheel I want to be.
        but actually, as I am invoicing every two weeks–the delay might be more like 14 days, if I don’t catch them on the fridays that they pay out. this is a long time to expect someone to go without a paycheck, in my opinion.

        1. Havarti*

          Oh, I thought you were invoicing on a monthly basis. Just because it says 30 days doesn’t mean they need to wait 30 days to pay you. Ideally that 1/26 invoice should have been paid by 2/16 or 2/23 at the latest. Have all the invoices been paid this late?

          1. Storie*

            thanks for your reply.
            i have only been paid once–and it was similarly late. when i asked the operations attorney who did my contract, she looped in annoyed admin and they tried to point to the fact that my invoice had been missing some info. but no one had asked me for missing info, and that didn’t track–even if my info had been complete, they would have been overdue. i let it go and decided to start invoicing every two weeks after that.
            i’m not sure if the admin understands the process completely–her answers are not very clear.

            yes, i’m emailing and yes etf. i don’t have that language about interest–just “due within 30 days upon receipt”. perhaps i should add that. and yes, i’ll see if it goes through later today.

            hoping to get hired by this company, so i don’t want to sqeak too much, on the other hand i am working my ass off for them and i’d like them to honor the agreement!

              1. Storie*

                Normally agree. I have a specialized job, however, and not sure if I can eliminate opportunities on that basis…yet. After thinking about this, I’m going to bug annoyed admin and try to confirm it’s happening today.

    2. Havarti*

      That does seem like it’s taking too long. From your comment, it sounds like you emailed the invoice to them. Payment is sent via EFT/direct deposit? They may not post it until the end of the day so maybe wait until Monday? Does your invoice have language like “any portion not paid within 30 days shall accrue interest at the rate of 1.5% per month?”

      I know where I’ve worked, invoices were gathered and sent once a week up to the big wigs to sign off and then the check would be cut. But I’m pretty sure they were cutting checks on the same week the invoices were approved. Whenever we had delays it was because someone lost the paperwork.

      As an admin, I don’t really care this admin is annoyed. You need to be paid in a timely fashion for your work. I was mortified if a consultant had to follow up on a missing payment because it meant someone messed up somewhere. I don’t have much experience with Canadian companies though.

      On the flip side, as someone who has sent out invoices on behalf of the company, sometimes the process drags on for unknown reasons. But I sometimes think it’s because they lose track of the paperwork.

    3. Thlayli*

      Can you send the invoice on the Thursday so they receive on Friday morning? If not I think there’s not much you can do.

      1. Thlayli*

        You could bill for Friday-Thursday hours and leave the Friday hours for the next invoice

    4. Geillis D*

      Canadian accountant here. Make sure they are remitting non-resident tax payable (NR4 form).

  136. R*

    I have a question on burnout.
    I’ve recently come to the realization that I’m pretty burnt out–I haven’t taken a vacation in over a year, and I’m doing grad school part time which makes me even more exhausted. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize this until I had made a few embarrassing mistakes that hurt me and my boss. I’m not on a PIP or anything, but I don’t feel comfortable taking time off until I can prove myself to be back up to the standard I usually am. It’s complicated by the fact that due to finances, I’m probably going to need to pick up a second part time job. Are there ways to try and stave off the burnout until I can take a vacation (hopefully in the summer)? Do you have any tips on making yourself work through this?

    Thanks!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Take a sick day, if you need one. Mental health is just as real as the flu. Exercise, doesn’t have to be hard sweat weight lifting, either. For me, just making sure I walk every day does wonders for my emotional keel. And decide what really matters to you, not to your job or to your grad schoo. What matters to you?

      For me, also in grad school and working full time, that means sometimes I don’t to grad assignments or I slack on them, because something else matters to me more. Sometimes, it means not working late. You have to take care of yourself first.

    2. MissCPA*

      Maybe as a follow up to your conversation with your boss about these mistakes, could you bring up burnout and ask if it’s okay to take a small stay-cation or vacation to recharge? Even if it was a couple days I think that should be do-able. Employers give vacation in the expectation that you use it, so I think this is reasonable. As long as you are having a discussion with your boss about it, I don’t think it should come across negatively. We all need a break sometimes!

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      That sounds rough. My sympathies. Would there be a possibility of taking even just a single day off to give yourself a three-day weekend? If not, maybe try to give yourself a “vacation” for even a single Saturday. Give yourself permission to not worry about laundry, cleaning out the fridge, homework, etc. for a whole day. Instead, take a walk in the park, or go to a museum, or have a FaceTime date with a long-distance friend/family member, or grab a novel and read it in a coffee shop for three hours straight with your phone on airplane mode. Order pizza for dinner, or if that’s too much of a splurge money-wise, cook that thing that’s super-easy and you secretly love it even though it’s not so healthy. (For me, that’s macaroni and cheese from a box or frozen gyoza/dumplings.)

      Also, a thing I’m continually struggling with to avoid feeling burned out, but which I know really helps, is getting enough sleep. It’s definitely a vicious cycle that when I start to get sleep-deprived I’m much *more* likely to go to bed late, but when I do get back on the bedtime wagon I notice everything else feeling lots better. Avoiding caffeine after lunch and screens near the end of the day helps, though both are very tempting for me.

    4. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m approaching burnout myself, and actually have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for next week to talk about it. I struggled with this part as well:

      Unfortunately, I didn’t realize this until I had made a few embarrassing mistakes that hurt me and my boss… I don’t feel comfortable taking time off until I can prove myself to be back up to the standard I usually am.

      The thing is, if the mistakes you’re making are due to burnout, you’re not going to be able to fix them by working harder. They’re a sign that you need to slow down and take time off *now,* if you can, rather than later. Waiting until you’re back up to your usual standard just means that you’re waiting until you don’t need the time off any more. There are two risks there – one, that you’ll just keep repeating the cycle of “I can’t take time off until I’m better/ now that I’m better I don’t need the time off any more” and never actually stop to take care of yourself. And the other risk is that by pushing yourself through all this, you’re likely going to keep making more and more mistakes.

      I hear you, I really do. I’m in the middle of a huge time-sensitive project at work, which is ironically not actually the cause of my burnout at all, but the timing is still pretty crappy. Whatever the actual cause, it’s certainly going to *look* like it’s this particular project, and that I’m leaving my colleagues in the lurch by taking time off now. But honestly, I’m not doing anybody any good right now anyway, because my brain is so fried. So I really do think it’s better to go now and take care of my own health, rather than pushing through and potentially causing even worse problems.

      Hugs to you, if you want them. This is tough.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I think you could reasonably frame this to your boss in a way that makes sense too. “I’m so embarrassed about X mistake, and I’ve been trying to understand how it happened. I’ve realized I haven’t been prioritizing taking time off the way I should and it’s left me feeling distracted and irritable. I’m going to try and make a vacation happen for myself next month” … I dunno, I feel like that’s very reasonable. You can’t just be like the horse in Animal Farm that’s answer to everything is Work Harder!

    6. NottaCarlotta*

      I took last summer off from my grad course work because I needed a break and so did my family. It was a great decision because last summer was very eventful and not in a good way that I can’t imagine having had assignments and projects on top of them.

      Realize that something has to give…you need your job so grad school can wait a semester.

  137. Pickle Lily*

    I’m sat here writing my chartership application and I’m already getting nervous about the interview stage. And that’s despite almost ten years of experience and my mentor saying that I have a strong application, which on paper I do. I’m still worried about my ability to focus on the more technical aspects of my job in the interview. Previous job interviews have included discussions on the project management and client development side of things as well as technical, so the technical bit was more diluted (so to speak).
    I work in quite a niche field so I’m not looking for specific details, but does anybody have any general words of wisdom on this type of interview or any experience with STEM subject charterships? How does it differ to a normal job interview?

    1. Thlayli*

      I’m a chartered mechanical engineer and my advice is to read their guidance/rules and then follow that. My organisation had a list of all the skills you had to demonstrate experience in and I managed to demonstrate them in my application. The interview is reall just to check that you actually did all that, and didn’t just fake it. So long as your written application is strong and you can talk convincingly about everything you included in it, you should be fine. They aren’t going to ask you to solve differential equations in the Interview!

  138. Joshua*

    For the first time I’ll be using a work cell phone for my role. Anyone else here carry two cell phones (work & personal)? How do you elegantly manage carrying both devices? I feel like I have enough trouble trying to keep my portfolio, wallet, keys, and laptop organized without becoming too bulky.

    1. LCL*

      I don’t elegantly manage anything, I appreciate elegance but can’t readily achieve it. I just make sure both phone batteries are charged, so when I lose them I can easily find them.
      Keys are in my pocket and work keys on my belt, wallet is in my back pocket, phones are carried or shoved in work jacket pockets. I’m looking for a smart phone that is really small for my next upgrade, so I can carry it in my shirt pocket as I used to when phones were dumb.

    2. a-no*

      there are some pretty wild cases that are designed for this. One’s where your phone’s stick to each other back to back (so you have the face out on both of them!) as well as I would forward my number and email to my personal phone if I only wanted to carry one etc.
      There are also a ton of laptop bags designed to carry all the things without the bulk so maybe looking into one of those?

    3. agmat*

      I carry both a work and personal cell and find it pretty easy. However, I can ditch my work phone for an entire evening or weekend without worry because I’m a government employee not expected to work off hours (some people do, but I get all my work done in 40 hours and don’t worry about it).

      They don’t physically look similar, which is great, and I also have a wallet/phone combo for my personal cell. I keep that in whatever bag or laptop bag I’m carrying, but I have a male friend that can fit his wallet/phone combo in his back pocket.

    4. Yams*

      I’m not convinced this is possible. It’s way better than mixing personal numbers with work numbers though.

    5. Thlayli*

      I use a laptop backpack with side pockets. Makes me look a little like a schoolchild. Idgaf

    6. Serious Sam*

      I just made sure my next personal phone was a dual-sim one. None of the networks will sell you one, because they see it as facilitating arbitrage with their competitors. However I was able to get a Moto G -5 with dual-sim from Amazon for a reasonable price.

  139. Annual review preparations*

    My manager scheduled an annual review. We haven’t done one in at least 10 years and everyone seems to be having theirs so it’s not that my work is faulty. But any suggestions in how to prepare?

    1. Irene Adler*

      You might mine your memory to assemble a list of all your work accomplishments over the past 10 years-with emphasis on the more recent ones. If you can, go one better and sum up these accomplishments with statistics of some kind.

    2. Thlayli*

      Look at it as an opportunity and list all your accomplishments since your last raise/promotion.

  140. Kelly*

    So my team is being disbanded sometime between June and August. Our project closes, and we will no longer have work to do. I am a regular, full time employee (so not contract or fixed term) in CA.

    I have spoken with my Director twice, but she is a consultant (so muddled, I know) and doesn’t know what the company policy is about this situation. She suggested I speak to HR. I’ve talked to them twice, they keep referring me back to my Director. I’m going in for a 3rd time.

    I’ve been with my company for 17 years, and I’d really like to stay. I’m looking and applying for internal positions, but, what happens if I dont find anything, and my job ends? Does the company have any (for lack of a better word) responsibility to me? Is it a layoff? I’m in a small amount of angst with the ambiguity.

    Do I just keep after HR to give me a solid answer?

    Kelly

    1. CatCat*

      Yes, I would keep after HR and that Director told you to talk to them about what happens to your position after the team is disbanded. (I mean, it would be one thing if they said the company is still figuring it out, but that’s not what they’re saying, they’re just punting you back to the non-employee Director and neither is giving you any kind of insight). I would *hope* that after 17 years, if they are going to lay you off, you would get a generous severance, but they could also not offer severance (in which case they suck).

      What are your other team members doing? I would also talk to them.

      At any rate, I would start job searching and not even necessarily discreetly (assuming the boss is a reasonable person). The team is disbanding and there will be no more work. The writing is on the wall.

      1. Kelly*

        My director is encouraging me to start looking now, rather than later. Yes, after 17 years I’d HOPE there would be some loyalty on their part as well, but….

    2. McWhadden*

      I’m so sorry you are in this situation. At the very least you should be entitled to unemployment benefits if the worst happens.

    3. Thlayli*

      Personally I would go above directors head, or directly to the director of the department you think you would be most suited for, and explain the situation. Tell them that neither hr not director is giving you any info, that you’d like to stay in the company, and you think you would be a good fit for (role) but that you want to have some visibility on the plan so you can start job hunting if necessary. (Obviously start job hunting anyway).

  141. topscallop*

    I don’t know if anyone might have advice for me, but thought I’d throw this out there. I work in global health/development, on a project where we have a country program in a developing country in Africa to which I provide project management and technical program support. Our in-country office has a small staff and they’re overloaded. I joined the project about 10 months ago, and my boss, who is the program manager, delegated a lot of responsibilities to me around documenting the work done in the field per our internal and external requirements (we owe routine narrative and financial reports to the funder).

    Today, my boss told me she’s gotten feedback from the country director that the staff are feeling overwhelmed/annoyed by my requests for them to send me the information I’ve been tasked with collecting. I feel I have done a lot to try to mitigate the workload for them, by drafting as much of the documentation as I can first, and pointing out the few remaining pieces I need them to complete. I’ve also offered to hold Skype calls if they prefer to tell me what they’ve been doing, so I can write it down, but these rarely end up taking place – they’ll agree and then postpone indefinitely. I recognize they have a lot of work in the field, but these are things we are required to do, and they are literally in my job description to manage. My boss will help try to put some of the accountability on the country director to get the staff to work with me on these things, but wants me to “reflect” on what I could do differently to address this friction. We have a semi-annual report due at the end of March, and I admit that I have been sending a lot of emails lately to collect results for that, but I wouldn’t have to if they’d just respond!

    Is there something I’m missing about how to get what I need from them in order to do my job? Is there a way to phrase my requests in a nicer way? I’ve always gotten positive feedback about how I comport myself/interact with others, so to hear that they were stressed out by me was a blow.

    The country we’re working in is 6 hours ahead, and has a culture where people are not very direct. I don’t know how to be less direct about what I need – I feel like I’m already doing my best to write polite yet concise emails that explain the requests.

    1. Reba*

      Any chance of you heading to the country office in person?

      Short of that, consider doing more social lubrication, if you think that could fit into the office culture (going to guess that it is a big part of local culture in the country office). Not “less direct,” necessarily, I’m just thinking greetings, asking about family, etc.. Of course, if they don’t reply or take your Skype calls, that’s hard to do!

      Is there a way that the reporting could be reorganized so that there is one person in the country office who collects things, i.e. so that you are asking one person instead of several for things?

      Good luck.

    2. Little Bean*

      First, I would suggest that you and your boss are on the same page about the amount of information you’re supposed to be collecting, and the timeline. It’s possible that you’re asking for too much detail, or asking for it faster than is actually necessary.

      Also, I’d try to make sure they understand why you need this information and what its priority should be relative to their other work. If you’re collecting this info for something that will eventually benefit them, it might help to explain that. If it’s not going to directly benefit them and it’s for the benefit of the company, then you might need your boss (or, even better, their bosses) to support you in saying that it’s part of their job and they have to do it.

      Finally, if there’s a way for you to get more familiar with what they actually do, it might help you make sure that you’re making realistic requests at appropriate times. It can be really frustrating to have someone ask for something like “oh, just throw this together, it should be easy” and actually, no, that thing would take me days to do. Or to have someone say they need something by next week and they’re just giving it to you now and this is the busiest week of the year.

  142. Buffy Summers*

    I’m trapped in a nonprofit circle of hell and I want to escape! I want to move out of the nonprofit world and into the glorious world of for profit but I just don’t know how to make that transition. I’ve been unsuccessful so far in even getting an interview. Any advice?

      1. Buffy Summers*

        I’m a Finance Director. I’m honestly not necessarily wanting to stay in finance, though. I’m probably just dreaming, but I’d like something completely different.

    2. Little Twelvetoes*

      Sorry, I don’t, other than to say “don’t forget about the government world”. It’s usually got great benefits and I think feels more like the for-profit world than the nonprofit world. In some cases, at least.

      Good luck!!

    3. NJ Anon*

      I did it. I was an accounting/finance manae at 2 different np’s for 15 years and got burnt out. Found a job as an office manager at. Consulting firm. Better pay and bennies and the work is less stressful. Its awesome!

      1. Buffy Summers*

        Interesting! I’m a Finance Director and I recently applied for an Office Manager position, but I got my Dear Jane letter without even getting an interview. I’m afraid people see my accounting degree and my title with “Director” in it and kind of pigeon-hole me.

        1. foolofgrace*

          That’s where your cover letter comes in. I don’t remember Alison’s actual words, but she addresses the issue of going to a “lower” level job by explaining in a dynamite cover letter why you want to be an office manager or whatever.

        2. AAAA*

          I work for a for-profit company that contracts primarily with state government agencies with much of their project funding flowing through from state and federal grants. If we were hiring for an Office Manager, someone who had finance director experience at a NP, who presumably was dealing with grant accounting and the like, would definitely make it to the top of our list for interviews. Perhaps focus in on companies that do a lot of government contracting?

  143. Ruth (UK)*

    Phone screens/interviews… A question.

    So, I’m in my late 20s and have probably had around 8 or so job interviews in my life (I had 4 interviews the last time I job searched – quite recently, resulting in my current job I’ve been in since December. And about that many again in my job search that resulted in my previous job (about 4 years ago). These were all office/admin jobs (current job is at a university, previous was call centre hospital bookings). I have had retail jobs in the past but feel that’s more different.

    Now, this blog has led me to believe phone screens are (or should be) common but I have literally never personally encountered one or come across a job that, to my knowledge, does a phone screen before the in person interview (as well as the interviews I’ve got, I’ve also applied for many more jobs, none of which phone screen that I know of). None of the places I have worked for do phone screens and, in conversation with a few friends, they think it is very uncommon too.

    So I’m wondering, is this a UK Vs USA thing?

    Or perhaps it’s just about my area of the country and it’s common in other areas within the UK?

    Is it a job type/level things maybe? (all my jobs so far would be considered entry level)

    Or is it more common than I think and just sheer coincidence that where I have applied or worked does not do this?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      USA here – west coast. I’ve only been through a phone screen once, but it has been a while since I was out there looking. At my current place of employment, we usually only do phone interviews if the candidate is not local. And that usually only applies to manager and above level, where we would be willing to pay for them to travel for a second interview.
      (We did also use a phone interview once when someone had moved away but wanted to come back and we were so sure wanted them that we didn’t even interview anyone else. It was mostly a formality.)

    2. Little Bean*

      Also US here, but I think it depends. I think I’ve only had one phone screen out of maybe 7-8 interviews. I’ve also been on a lot of hiring committees, and we only occasionally do phone screens. When we do, it’s either because the person in charge of that position specifically wants to do them, or because there’s a large pool of well qualified applicants that we need to narrow down. Often, it’s been obvious who our 5 candidates are, so we’re happy to just interview them all and skip the phone screen process.

    3. caledonia*

      This is definitely a US/non UK thing.

      I don’t think phone screens are part of any process in the UK, it’s all in person interviews (1 or more depending on your level).

      1. Tau*

        I’m going to be contradictory and say I had a phone interview for most of the jobs I applied for in the UK! These were mainly graduate/entry-level programming jobs.

        1. caledonia*

          Well, ok then. Tech is weird though.

          In my admin/working in public libraries/retail/bar work it’s not a thing.

          1. Tau*

            Tech is weird though.

            I cannot argue with this statement and figured that might be the difference.

          2. boy oh boy*

            I had screening/phone interviews for accounting jobs in several industries and for editorial/publishing jobs. Not just tech.

    4. soupmonger*

      I’m in the UK, and I’ve never had a phone screen, I’ve either been interviewed in person, or not. I run my own business now, and again, I either call people in for a chat, or not. I’ve only once carried out an interview by phone, and that was because the applicant was out of the UK at the time. I think it is more of a UK/US thing – but may also depend on work type. I can imagine a scenario where in-person interviews are in-depth, so you’d want to whittle down the number of interviewees first, by phone screen.

    5. Ron McDon*

      I definitely think it’s a us/uk thing, I’ve never had a phone screen for any of my 4 jobs.

      Perhaps it’s common in some industries in the U.K., but generally I think in-person interviews are the norm here.

    6. foolofgrace*

      Maybe in the US it’s industry-specific? I’m US Midwest tech writer, and phone screens are really common. Sometimes multiple phone screens — once with a recruiter, then with the company’s HR office, then with the hiring manager(s). So tiring.

      1. amy l*

        I work for a big university in the US and I can report that our HR Department does a phone screen on all candidates that are being considered for a face to face interview (either Skype or in person).

        1. amy l*

          Sorry – was that confusing? Phone screen before interview. For just about every position on campus below a Director.

    7. Thlayli*

      EU – worked in 3 EU countries including UK. Have done brief phone calls before being invited for interview and also full 1-hour phone interviews, with the expectation of a final in-person interview after. I’ve also gone straight to in-person interview after sending in CV. Have experienced both methods in UK and other EU countries.

      I think it just depends on the organisation and the amount of time they have available.

    8. boy oh boy*

      UK – I’ve worked in publishing, public accounting and higher education. I’ve had initial phone screens that were close to a preliminary interview.

      Perhapsp hone screens in the UK are more common with large firms, where they get a lot of applicants? I had one phone screen for a small publishing company, and five phone screens when I applied to major retailers/businesses to do financial accounting work.

  144. Rookie Manager*

    I’ve been doing pretty good at rocking my job recently, threw a successful large event, praised by the CEO in a handwritten letter, team all working well together… but this week sucked!

    I’ve had no chance to do half my work so the laptop is coming home, team are bickering, two of the team didn’t show for a meeting I set up for them, a new employee is being an arrogant **** who appears to think I can’t do my job because I’m not sharing every thing I do with him, another with mental health problems has lost confidence and can’t magic it back… I’m just so so tired. So tired.

    Next week I’d much prefer to be rocking my job!

  145. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

    I’m not sure if this is a situation where I’m being sensitive or not:

    I started a new job about a month ago and I think I’m picking up on things pretty well. My immediate supervisor has been incredibly hands-off but pretty vocal when I’ve made a mistake. It’s frustrating because I didn’t get trained or very complete training but she expects me to do things the way she wants. She doesn’t make it very clear what she wants.

    I spent the morning hearing that notes in a shared document need to be in “more complete” sentences but not necessarily complete sentences. I asked for examples since that didn’t really make sense to me. She went on to explain that the first letter needs to be capitalized and a period/punctuation added at the end. Grammatically, this is a complete sentence. So I said as much. She seemed annoyed with me and then told me to use complete sentences then.

    This has been a theme when she does give feedback in that her feedback isn’t clear to me. When I try to understand, she seems frustrated that I don’t get it. It makes me feel stupid, like it should be easy to get and I don’t. Logically, I think she’s just bad at explaining things but I don’t want this to jeopardize my job or potential for raises/more responsibility because she thinks I don’t understand anything.

    What can I do?

    1. Elizabeth H.*

      It’s hard to tell from the example you gave because it seems pretty clear to me. (I think the distinction between complete sentences, which are grammatical, and notes but that have a capital letter and a period so that they don’t look messy is fairly reasonable)
      Can you try asking her for examples or asking more questions up front at the time that she gives you a direction or assigns you a task, so that you get more clarity from the start, rather than asking for examples or clarification during her giving you feedback on something she’d like you to do differently or correcting a mistake?

      1. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

        That’s what I’m worried about! That it makes sense and is clear but I’m just not getting it?

        I’ve tried asking her to review my work sooner, and I tried asking for examples in this instance.

        I don’t know if other examples help or is just venting: this week I was asked why I hadn’t worked on a document I didn’t have access to (and she knew I didn’t have access to. She wanted me to work on it and then input the data later but she didn’t say this to me), and she asked for specific stats that I didn’t know I was supposed to be keeping.

        I guess overall I just feel lost in that she hasn’t spent more than a half hour training me but I don’t seem to be meeting her expectations. I feel nervous that I’m messing up and I can sense her frustration with me. I don’t want to get fired but I don’t know how to get clearer expectations ahead of time.

    2. Emi.*

      From this example, it sounds to me like she may be getting frustrated because you sound defensive (“it makes me feel stupid”) and put-out. She can probably tell that you “think she’s just bad at explaining things,” so of course she’s annoyed.

      1. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

        Is there a way to clarify or ask for more information without sounding defensive? I feel stupid not that I’ve made a mistake but that I don’t understand what she wants after asking for clarity. I’m not sure the distinction matters if it comes across the same, though.

        1. Emi.*

          I think the main thing is to keep a very friendly tone–even puzzlement can come off as passive-aggressive. Also, could it maybe help to go off and implement her instructions as best you can, and then come back to say “Here’s how I’ve been doing this now, is this good or do you have more feedback?” (instead of going back-and-forth in the moment, which can be frustrating for both of you)?

          But if you’re overall undertrained I think you should also bring that up separately, especially if there are whole areas you don’t understand.

          1. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

            This sounds like it could work, I’ve started asking her to check my work before I keep going on it to make sure I’m on the right track. I was afraid this would be annoying but hopefully it will help. I really do better with seeing an example of what she wants so perhaps it will be less confusing for both of us to have something to work with rather than kind of theoretical questions about a task.

    3. Betsy*

      The first letter capitalised and punctuation added at the end seems like a reasonable requirement. However, this is not necessarily a complete sentence, grammatically speaking. A complete sentence has a subject and a verb (but not just the ‘ing’ form without an auxiliary verb).

      1. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

        I think I got really caught up on the wording? All her direction read to me as “write in complete sentences,” when she said “but don’t write in complete sentences.” It seemed really confusing to me.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      This is based off the one example so I don’t know how representative it is, but it sounds like the disconnect is that the supervisor has pretty specific standards of what she’s looking for, but the standards are only talked about if she notices if the work doesn’t meet those standards rather than before-hand (aka training). That is a tough way to learn someone’s criteria for good work, and I think feeling like you’re getting continuous negative feedback is enough to make anyone a little defensive and frustrated. One of my old managers referred to it as the “bring me a rock” problem, where you’re left trying to figure out what rock they want.

      Incidentally, I also would have asked for an example of a “more complete but not necessarily complete” sentence and clarified that she means using proper punctuation regardless of whether the note contained a subject, object, and verb. And then clarified whether she means provide more details in each note to be “more complete…” Like, is the issue with the content or with the presentation or both? If she considers it wrong, I would like to know the rules for making it right since not everyone has the same criteria for content depth or presentation.

      As for what you can do… continue to politely ask the questions you need in order to fix the work to her standards, clarify what you need to, absorb her responses without pushing back or appearing to push back, and try your best to hide frustration at her reactions. For example, instead of saying that punctuation would then make the notes complete sentences when she just said they didn’t need to be complete sentences, just say, “Oh I see what you mean, I will remember to use punctuation.”

      1. AnonymousLibraryGirl*

        This is exactly what it feels like! I like to do a good job and it’s kinda upsetting to come up short because I’ve found out after that there was a requirement or preference I didn’t know to account for.

        I do think I need to work on hiding that frustration. It’s hard but I think if I just ask as many clarifying questions as I need to (without being annoying, if possible) and ask for specific feedback then maybe I’ll get a better feel for what she wants.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Learning to ask enough clarifying questions is so hard. It’s taken me years and I still haven’t mastered, but here’s an example of an exchange I actually had with a colleague who was, like your boss, really poor at giving specific instruction.
          Boss: We need a list of important black female authors to feature for Black History month.
          Then I would ask the following questions:
          1. How many?
          2. How are we defining important? Award winning?
          3. Does genre matter?
          4. How are we defining “black”? Do African authors count? What about British-Nigerian authors (for example)? Or are we really just looking for African-American authors?

          Then, follow up with an email that summarizes everything you were told to do. The first time you do this, you will feel nuts and think you’re being overly picky, but I swear, it will help get a clear idea of what she wants.

          Then, if you have a problem, immediately let her know: I don’t have access to the file I need to do X, how do I get access? Or who do I ask for access?

          Also, is she the only one who can train you or is there someone else you could go to for help? This is hard and I know you feel attacked and I think learning how to get a clearer grip on what she wants will make you feel better, but you’re going to have to be the one to be proactive. She’s not going to change her behavior.

          1. AnonForNow*

            Thank you for this! I saw the Send An Email advice when I searched Captain Awkward’s archive too (I love advice columns, what can I say) and have been making notes about what to try next time.

            The rest of the staff is WONDERFUL and have been more than willing to help me anytime I have a question or even proactively. There are some things only she knows how to do, though.

            I have been mildly worried that the email and questions will come across weird, like I’m documenting behavior, but I really just want to know how to do my job.

        2. Jessi*

          I might try having a clear the air talk with her!

          Hey BossLibrarian, I felt that you were really frustrated with me last week about the complete sentences thing. So far I really like working at library and I really want to do well here! Is there some formal training that I could read over as to ‘how we do things here?’ (pause to let her respond – great if yes, if not) Going forwards I am going to do my best to ask clarifying questions at the beginning but of course I don’t know to ask questions about things that I don’t know about (remember that document? I didn’t know we were keeping track of x stat), it would be really helpful to me if you could go over the details when giving me a new task. Thanks!

  146. StinkyManager*

    I know Alison posted on how to address body odor at work, but what if it’s your superior who smells? My manager comes over to people to answer questions, so he stands behind you while helping.

    It’s not gag-worthy, but fairly strong, and I think he wears the same sweater and etc all week.

    On the other hand his wife recently had a baby. It hasn’t improved after nearly a month, though.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t say anything to my manager unless we were really close (emotionally, not just physically) and/or there was contact with clients or customers that might be impacted.

  147. Mousing*

    Anyone who does a lot of Photoshop and/or Illustrator work: have you tried an ergonomic mouse, or other similar equipment?

    I’m getting wrist and forearm aches after a lot of photo editing. I’ve heard good things about the Evoluent VerticalMouse, but wanted to poll the commentariat.

    1. AnonForToday*

      I have that one but so far the one I like the best is one made by Anker.
      I also have a gaming mouse that is sort of flat (I think a Lenovo) – I find it helps to rotate them all.
      I have had surgery for RSI, so stay on top of the pain.

    2. Cute Li'l UFO*

      If I’m doing a lot of long, heavy, or hyper detailed work I use a tablet. I get frustrated by ergonomic mice and just can’t seem to get used to them. Perhaps I never tried enough but I’ve been especially comfortable with my Wacom tablet.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I have more than one mouse, one of which is supposed to be ergonomic. It looks similar to the Evoluent, but it is more square and it has its own problems. I found that what works best for me is to switch off between them and not to use the same mouse for more than a couple of hours at a time.

    5. Short & Dumpy*

      Not photoshop, but a ton of mouse work. I don’t like the ergonomic ones (I’m assuming you’re talking about the kind where the ball sticks up & looks like a cheesy sci fi control). It finally occurred to me awhile back that I have pretty small hands and most mice are sized for men. I got a very small one off amazon that is marketed towards youth. It’s wonderful! My wrist and fingers stay in a much better position even though it’s probably only an inch shorter in length and 1/2″ less in height. I think you almost need to go hold them in the store to see what is comfortable.

  148. KR*

    Hi AAM. I am not on top of my game work wise and feeling bad about myself. You guys are cheering me up. Thank you.

  149. Speak Up!*

    I’m in the first year of my art history PhD program. One seminar I’m taking this semester has several students who are several years ahead of me in the program, and they tend to dominate the conversation during our discussions of readings. I’m having trouble getting a word in because they talk so often and there’s often no space to interject, and also I doubt whether what I want to say is intelligent enough to be said and so I spend too much time thinking about it, and then the appropriate moment for the comment has passed. For grad students/alumni out there, how do you train yourself to speak up in this situation? And professors, do you hold dumb comments in seminar against students long term? My written assignments are always praised so I think I’m respected in my program, but I would like to participate more in class and am feeling too intimidated to do so.

    1. Reba*

      Hello Fellow Art Historian. Ideally your professor would moderate a little more. But they probably won’t! I have been in both positions you describe, the one who can’t peep up and the one who can’t shut up.

      Since it’s readings, you could prepare some comments ahead of time, just think through what you would want to say. This changes the way you read, too, in a good way. Always be responding as you read. I have just read aloud things out of my notes before. Obviously that doesn’t help you with off the cuff comments, but you can practice speaking aloud using the semi-prepared ones and work up to it. Try to make a comment early on in the class meeting. Why not be first?

      Finally, there is almost certainly no way your comments are dumb. YOU BELONG THERE. It’s your freakin department and your field, too. COURAGE!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Try to be the first person to comment (or the second) a few times – you can also enlist the professor in letting you set the discussion next week if that would make you feel better. When you’re invested early you tend to remain central to the discussion, versus if you’re trying to catch the thread of the conversation as it slides through your hands. I’m a can’t-shut-up person so I apologize on behalf of my ilk :(

    2. Lois Lane*

      Talk to your professor! Ideally, he/she should already be noticing this and reframing the class discussion to allow for more class input, but if he/she is not, then you should bring it to his/her attention so that they can allow for greater input from more students.

    3. Lois Lane*

      I should add… I started a history PhD the other year and started with a seminar that was mixed Phd and master’s students. I was older than many of the students, most of whom were MA students, and had been out of school since getting my MA almost a decade ago. I have no problem speaking up in class, but I noticed that I would contribute something and then there would be a pause and then no one would follow up on it and often times another student would then just say something else totally unrelated to my comment.

      Frustrated, I finally went to the professor and asked him, “Am I just saying really dumb things or something?” He replied, “Not at all!” He explained that actually, what I was saying was really smart. So smart, that he thought the master’s students just weren’t on my level at all and that they were actually intimidated by what I was saying and that they didn’t know how or what to respond and that’s why they didn’t address what I was saying.

      I went into his office worried that I was the dumb, old student and came out hearing that I was actually the smart, sophisticated student. What a confidence-booster! It also helped me to take a step back from the conversation and help to reframe my contributions in a way that the MA students might better understand or relate to, so it was a win-win for all of us.

    4. Betsy*

      They won’t form an impression of you based on only your comments. Unless they have a very large cohort and can’t remember you, they’ll also take your written assignments into account. I teach undergrads, but honestly we’re very pleased when more people jump in. I feel very uncomfortable when the conversation is being dominated by just a few people, because it’s my job to get as many people as possible involved. So if new people start talking, I frankly don’t even care what they say, I’m just so pleased more people are contributing. Our workloads are also generally too high to remember individual comments for very long after class. Often people’s ideas don’t come out exactly the way they intended– actually I would say they mostly don’t, and that’s part of the learning process. Most people are sort of just verbally stabbing at or gesturing towards an idea, and it takes a few attempts to get it right.

      Like others have said, preparing comments is a good idea. Or you could challenge yourself to speak a certain number of times per session.

      In my experience as a PhD student, later year PhD students were quite intimidating. But they’re not more intelligent or capable than you, they’re just more experienced. I think sometimes they like to feel that they’re more talented purely because they’re currently at the top of the PhD student hierarchy, but they got into the program with the same qualifications you did. They will start to move on very soon, and then you’ll get new first years coming in and you’ll be the confident one.

    5. OES*

      Late to reply, but Art History professor here. One thought about reading discussions: art history scholarship can be really dense. It’s not uncommon for the thesis to be buried (or even only found in the conclusion), and the scholar’s methodology will strongly impact the analysis. So some of your feelings of intimidation may come from the older grad students’ seeming ease with tricky material. If you prepare the readings with an eye to tracking the thesis, weighing the evidence, and keeping the scholar’s methodology in the forefront (the questions she’s asking about the work), you might be able to more easily enter into the discussion and to respond to other students’ comments. Also, a little tip: there’s a lot of quite bad art history writing out there, even by major scholars. Don’t be afraid to read with a critical eye (“did she actually look at that painting before she said that?”).

      Generally professors are happy to have as many contributions to a discussion as possible. I hope in this day and age, no professor gets snarky about “dumb questions,” but I can’t guarantee it; graduate school is emotionally challenging. But don’t despair – you’ll get better at it as time goes on!

  150. Phoenix Programmer*

    I am wondering if readers consider this a clique and if so of it’s a bad thing?

    I am a top performer and the other leadership is not. I have had to put up with not great behavior from them – yelling, sighing, eye rolling etc. and general low performance. I am their peer and we share a manager.

    Recently however we hired some rock stars. Also some high performers we’re promoted into leadership. I’ve noticed a split where all the low performers lunch and hang out together and now I am joined by the high performers for lunch and fun. Previously it was just me being excluded but now it’s a pretty clear division along performance lines.

    Should I try to bring this divide? As the only member of the “old guard” so to speak I feel a bit more responsible for helping the new hires get to know the other leaders … but at the same time I am seeing this as a natural consequences of them being generally difficult to work with.

    What do readers think?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      If it’s just lunch, and not spilling over into the work realm of not consulting them or looping them in on things that are reasonably within your purview – I wouldn’t get into it. People don’t all have to be buddy-buddy in the office, and it sounds like this is a reasonable consequence of the way they’ve behaved. I’ve *never* been successful at trying to help lift up people who are experiencing natural consequences of their own choices – they have always resented me for trying and turned on me the first chance they got.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        We definitely try to include them in work items but sometimes we have to move in due to no response. I have just witnessed that relationship getting more and more tense. Again I think it is their fault though.

  151. Blake A.*

    I’m moving to Scotland in about 5 weeks. How soon is too soon to be applying for jobs over there? I’m in a different continent so I wouldn’t be able to interview until I actually get there. Also for context, I only have about 2-3 years of work experience and I’m looking for an office job.

    1. Mints*

      You might as well start applying. Worst case you have to turn down an interview, but that’s a small risk for applying to jobs that might line up

    2. AeroEngineer*

      I would definitely start applying now since you are within the 2 month window. Depending on how big the company is, it might take that long for the interview to even be set up, and if they really want you, they should be able to work with you about it.

    3. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Just chiming in to say, “lucky you!” I visited Scotland last year – what a gorgeous country!

      1. Blake A.*

        Aww thanks! I absolutely fell in love with Scotland, which is one of the big reasons why I’m moving.

    4. caledonia*

      A bit late but my workplace did skype interviews for candidates who couldn’t attend in person. If you want to do admin in higher ed or most places, it’s probably worth applying now.

    5. Jennotype*

      Late to comment, sorry!

      Welcome to Scotland (when you arrive). It’s definitely not too soon to apply, most larger employers will be open to Skype/phone interviews. Even if they’re not I think you’ll still be arriving around the time it will take for most to get to the interview stage.

      I hope you like it here, where are you moving to? I’ve lived in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen so happy to offer some local advice!

  152. Mints*

    Okay, I know the answer is “it varies” but I’m curious about how work from home works for y’all. Assuming you have real flexible schedules and not just “if it’s an emergency and your boss approves” how far could you stretch the “home” part? (Right now I have the second type so this is a hypothetical.)
    Like I live 1-2 hours from the beach, and I think it would be okay to drive over during lunch when traffic is light on a Friday, then work a few hours from a Starbucks, then hit the beach. Without telling my coworkers or boss. I think this is probably okay?
    If I stretch it to another state in the same time zone, I think I wouldn’t hide it, but wouldn’t ask for permission about it either. If I’m in another time zone I would tell my boss but would expect to get paid normally assuming I’m working full days.

    I like the idea of working a week in nearby states and exploring during the nights and weekends without having to spend PTO, but am not sure if this would be frowned upon or seen as dishonest. How far do you think this could reasonably go?

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      It depends on your company and your job. At my company I need to take phone calls and be connected to company internet. I sometimes use my WiFi but I drop calls on my soft phone and can’t share my screen even though my WiFi network is strong. It’s also against policy to bring leave my work laptop around without a lock. If no one would notice and it doesn’t violate any company policy and you are sure to have good internet wherever you go, and it won’t disrupt your work, I think you could do what you suggest.

    2. Betsy*

      I really liked the idea of working from different places in the same timezone. Because we didn’t have to be on campus during mid-term week, and I use my own internet connection anyway, I took a short trip away, during which I was grading papers and completing admin tasks. But in the end I don’t think they were that happy with it, and wanted all of us to come in and do a last minute training that none of us could make (as at least one co-worker had also had the same idea). So I think you need to see how they react to things and test the waters carefully before jumping straight in. Flexibility is our main perk, but I realised this probably extends to a cafe situation, rather than a holiday destination.

    3. Thlayli*

      Depends on job. At my old job I could work from anywhere with reliable WiFi. What you’re describing sounds totally ok to me so long as you make up the hours over the week. When working from home you have to be super strict with yourself to actually do the hours because it’s so easy to get distracted by housework/tv/fun.

  153. Marcy Marketer*

    I do a small amount of freelance work and I have one client (former boss who I rely on for references) who is late paying me by a month. She’s in California so after 1 month I can charge a 2% late fee. I hate the idea of bringing legalities into things and souring our relationship, but I will if I have to. Ugh— just wanted to complain a bit.

    1. Former Govt Contractor*

      That seems ill advised. You need this person for business as well as references, and you’re going to ruin the relationship because she’s late by a month? For 2%? So that means if your total invoice is $1,000 you’d ruin the relationship for an extra $20?

      1. Reba*

        OTOH I feel strongly that Marcy Marketer should not have to lose money or time chasing payments just because doing so might make a client tetchy! If you pay late, there’s a late fee, this is normal in so many areas of life. But yeah, I’d go with reminders before adding fees! There are some freelance work tracking app things that will auto-email these sorts of messages, which is nice.
        Obviously it’s a know your client, calculate your risk kind of situation.

        1. Marcy Marketer*

          I have sent two reminders, and of course the original bill. The invoice is for much more than $1,000 and I do need to be paid eventually. It’s not about getting $50, it’s about getting the original invoice paid. If I have to threaten to charge a late fee to get paid, then that’s what I’m going to do before having to consider small claims court.

          1. Reba*

            UGH. Hopefully the late charge will work as a motivational tool. I think when you inform her try to keep a neutral, cheerful tone like Alison often recommends.

            The Freelancers union website also has some articles, tips, and language.

            Have you thought about putting in place a fee structure that accounts for this, going forward? Like spelling out on the original work agreement or first invoice, the terms are 30 days or whatever, after 30 days there will be a 2% or 5% late fee added, etc. etc.
            Or an incremental pay structure with an upfront payment (although that might just multiply your check-chasing problem!)? I’m not familiar with the California law, but I have seen plenty of freelancers set terms like this.

            You need this person for references — but do you need to keep doing business with her?

  154. Cats and Dogs*

    After months of being short-staffed, my boss came back from maternity leave this week. I was literally counting down the days the last month and a half. But, here’s the kicker. I’m generally an overly logical person. I understand that she’s been out for 6 months and that it will take time to get back up to speed. I also understand that as a new mother she has responsibilities and needs that work time needs to accommodate.

    We had several meetings this week. There were two that she should have attended to put her face back in front of people and get the latest update. She couldn’t attend either of them for baby-related reasons, so I attended as I’ve been doing. And normally, I wouldn’t care. I wouldn’t mind filling in for her either. But, I’m tired of being in charge without being in charge. And I’m now slightly bitter that I’m being asked to transition my boss back into her position and accommodate her schedule, almost as a favor with a couple of Thank you very muches thrown in. My stipend to run the department ended when she returned. No one has talked with me about WTH my role is now that she’s back (I’m still doing the work I was doing before she was here, nothing has been taken off my plate, aside from a weekly report) and I’m basically walking a tightrope of accommodating everyone but my damn self. And the truly crappy part is that I can’t really advocate aggressively because it’s been a difficult time and it would feel particularly scummy to say, Yo I need to be compensated for the crappy situation we have been in and you need to be nicer to me.

    I don’t know. I feel taken advantage of. It’s not new. It’s happened before. They will probably throw a $1500 bonus at me to shut me up and I’ll be fine until they take advantage of me again.

    1. McWhadden*

      Can you take some vacation time? I know it’s not the answer to your overall problem. But it’ll give you a much needed break. And it’ll force your boss to be the boss again on her own without you to lean on even if it’s just for a week.

      1. Cats and Dogs*

        Understood. But given that I was thrown into managing my department with no notice or direction, my ability to cut her some slack is significantly reduced.

  155. Snark*

    I’ve got a stomach bug, I’m chilled, I’m not feeling great, and I have to put in an incredibly important application for a job at which I’d be eminently qualified for.

    1. Nita*

      Good luck! It’s Friday. I assume no one’s going to look at it on Friday afternoon, so there’s probably no harm in putting it off for the weekend when you feel better!

      1. Snark*

        It’s not a bad suggestion, I just feel like Events made it so it wasn’t in yesterday, and so I’m trying to whip on it to get it done today and…..yeah.

          1. Reba*

            You didn’t mention it but I assume the job application was a pitch for the Ask Snark column.

  156. Me--I'm done*

    /rant

    I’ve come to the conclusion that I am unhireable.

    –Because of dyscalculia, three-fourths of any decent office jobs are off-limits to me.

    –My resume contains higher-level work (though not in any area I can use, it seems), so the lower-level jobs don’t want me. They think that a) I will leave, and b) I’ll want too much money since I worked at high-paying Exjob. I can’t take Exjob off my resume, but even the name is a deal-breaker, apparently.

    I thought I’d gained skills from this job. Thinking about it now, I didn’t, since we were so compartmentalized I could only work within the confines of my department and nowhere else. I didn’t even have access to what my colleagues were working on (even though I asked for opportunities to learn and was put off), so I had no knowledge of that when we changed to the other department. NewBoss expected me to know what was going on–I was clueless. It was like starting a brand-new job. I learned nothing I can transfer to my career of choice. It wasn’t a good job after all. Only the pay and benefits were good, but not even good enough to let me finish that school program VR sent me to without putting myself even deeper in debt.

    –I lack skills with which to make a career change in the only direction that’s a good fit for me; Freelancers are expected to have these skills and *expert* knowledge of style guides, etc; I do not. I don’t have time or access to get them at the level employers expect me to have in order to snag one of these jobs. Or a clearance–half of them require a clearance. What if I do get the job and then can’t get clearance? I lose the job. I tried applying to some that didn’t but got no response. Well of course not; I have little experience and no expert knowledge of anything. Even jobs that should have jumped on me, didn’t.

    –I thought I could get a lower-level job and save up leaving money or pay for courses. It’s one or the other; they don’t pay enough for me to do both. Or they pay so low I can’t do either. It’s a moot point, since none of them are interested in me.

    –I’ve had issues in past jobs with professionalism mostly due to anxiety, but I’ve been actively working on that. Doesn’t matter; I probably have a reputation now that will never be overcome.

    –No one wants my writing. Or me. Who would want someone who’s completely unemployable? I have little to no human contact except for my dhamma group, which has been important for mental health reasons. Therefore, I do not work weekends (most office jobs don’t require it anyway).

    –I’ve now been unemployed for a year and four months, which means I will never find a job because people are no doubt wondering why I can’t find a job. I can’t afford to have a life, either.

    One of my friends got his dream job at a company he’s been applying to for years (you’ve heard of it) and that is ALL he can talk about, in every forum where I see him. I am sick of hearing about the onsite cafeteria, the company perks, the huge science-y publicity events that are sooooooo cool, etc. I’m glad for him–he worked as a tech support CSR for a long time and was utterly miserable and now he’s really happy. He deserves this. But it’s like salt in a wound. I don’t tell him to shut up about it already; I just avoid those discussions.

    Anyway, I can’t get a job good enough to allow me to move someplace good that isn’t swarming with racists or butt-puckeringly cold. Just kill me. Now, please.

    And what is with the mother-hecking clouds? WHY WON’T THEY GO AWAY

    /end rant

    Ima go for a walk and rake the yard. Might as well burn some calories. bbl.

    1. Ruth (UK)*

      I’m afraid I am not well placed to give real practical advice here – I’m quite young, with not a huge amount of work experience and no hiring experience and I don’t know enough about you really other than what you have put in your post.

      However, I wanted to reply largely to express, well, partly my sympathy as it sounds like you are in a very frustrating situation and I do know what it feels like to feel as though there is no solution and no way out.

      I know you say you are not considered for entry level jobs because of higher level experience but is there some way to play that down in your application or resume? It so just could be a bit of luck or timing… I know it’s easy for me to feel optimistic from the outside, but I do feel that if you keep applying it’s not entirely unlikely you’d land something.

      Also, have you considered temping? If you’re currently unemployed it can give you that one slight edge of being available immediately for any work that comes up. I don’t know what the job market is like particularly in your area of course.

      One of my friends did a masters in medieval literature and then struggled for a while to get a job for this reason – no higher level experience but entry level roles were put off by the master’s. They ended up having eventual success through the route of temping.

      Anyway, I hope things look better for you soon

      1. Me--I'm done*

        I tried the temp agencies but the jobs they’re trying to fill are the same jobs I can’t get–they all want accounting, budgeting, payroll, etc. The rest are heavy manual labor, like construction and shit like that.

    2. caledonia*

      I have no advice but sympathy and good wishes.

      We’re all rooting for you. I hope something good comes of something, soon.

    4. Lil Fidget*

      Give yourself permission to withdraw a little from the friend who is excited about his job. I feel like a jerk when I’m jealous – I shouldn’t be! I wish them well! – but honestly it’s okay to give yourself a little time so that you can be enthusiastic about the friendship. I’ve had this happen in a bunch of different issues and it always turns out I need to be kind to myself and prioritize my own feelings a little more. You can even say something like, “hey, I’m really happy for you but I might not be the right person to talk to about this, because I’m going through a lot of frustration and mixed feelings about my job search right now. Please don’t take it personally if I pull back a little for a while, as I get myself sorted out.”

      1. Me--I'm done*

        I have been just kind of withdrawing–he isn’t talking to just me, it’s everyone in general in a shared space. He doesn’t notice, or if he does, he doesn’t say anything (he is very nice and I like him but he can be a little oblivious). His bright idea when I posted something on Facebook was “get in your car and drive to where you want to live and get a job when you get there.” Riiiiiiiiiight with no money for gas, food, or lodging–who’s gonna hire a homeless vagrant!?

        I’ve been tempted to do that–sell my house and just leave, but I would have the same problem somewhere else.

    5. AudreyParker*

      I wish I could offer something beyond sympathy, but I can totally relate to much of what you’ve said. I did sooo many things at my last job (and really, previous jobs as well), but none seems to count for much, or at least I haven’t figured out a way to make the bits and pieces count elsewhere. I’m told I’m far beyond entry level work, but not told what exactly I *should be* targeting – most higher jobs seem to require specific or lengthy experience I don’t have. And don’t get me started on the style guide thing! Yes, I have used them, I know how to look things up if I’m not sure, am I really supposed to have memorized AP, Chicago, and APA??? Hard to believe that they truly expect that, but OTOH… I rule myself out because I don’t think my knowledge = expert level. When I was younger, temp agencies were always the answer, but I’m seeing similar results to you — either $10/hr or gigs I can’t remotely qualify for that require very specific skills. The people who say “eh, just move” or similarly facile things generally either HAVE those specific skills or haven’t had to look for a job in 15 years…

      So, solidarity, and will send some good energy your way, hoping things turn around, it’s just not obvious how it will happen yet!

    6. anon24*

      I’m sure you’re considering all your options, but have you considered looking outside of white collar type jobs? I know my local hospital was hiring entry level for jobs as patient care associates – basically helping the nurses and the patients with everyday tasks. They pay several dollars an hour more than I make as someone who is certified in my field of healthcare (EMS), and it’s a livable wage if you aren’t living the high life.

      I keep hoping things get better for you. Every open thread I come on specifically to look for your updates. Something good has to come your way soon.

    7. AlphabetABC*

      I’m sorry you’re facing so many challenges. I’m wondering if you wrote a post detailing what you can and want to do if we could come up with some helpful suggestions. It sounds like you’ve considered a variety of things from different angles, so much of it might be stuff you’ve heard before but maybe there would be a helpful perspective or job lead in there somewhere. For example, there are some places online you can freelance write web content for with little or no experience — though the pay is abysmal, it could be a starting point. Do you know about these? If you have a bachelor’s degree, I have a different modest temp job suggestion for you but it involves ranking things with numbers so IDK if that’s out of the realm of possibility?

      I’m about to take a walk myself in the last bit of sunshine left of the day. I’m wishing you the best.

    8. Jennifer*

      I hear you on the dyscalculia ruling you out for almost all jobs. I can’t apply for anything involving the magic words “budget” and “payroll” and that is ALL the available jobs for clerical workers. ALL OF THEM. I don’t WANT to be a money person! I know you need them, but I don’t wanna! That’s even worse than the bird in the hand.

    9. Thlayli*

      It sounds like you might want to consider getting a new qualification in something you can actually do. Start again from the beginning as it were.

      1. Thlayli*

        Also, the best way to get lower-level jobs is to have a good excuse for why you want it, that will convince them you aren’t about to leave. For example, i am a chartered engineer, but I contacted a temp agency when I was a stay at home mam and told them I just wanted something simple, brainless and stress-free that would get me out of the house one day a week, and it didn’t have to be more than minimum wage. I just needed a break from the kids basically, but I wasn’t ready to go back to being a project manager for another year or two since my job was not family friendly.

        Now I actually had other motives also, but this reason was partly true and more importantly was plausible. So I got hired by that temp agency for two super easy admin part time roles over the next year.

    10. New Bee*

      I’m really sorry, Me! You’ve had a rough go of it, and that’s an understatement. I’m visiting family in Kansas City at the end of this month–if you’re close enough, we could meet up for a coffee or something. :-)

      With so many commenters, there has to be someone with connections in MO. My fingers are crossed!

  157. Cats and Dogs*

    After months of being short-staffed, my boss came back from maternity leave this week. Here’s the kicker. I’m generally an overly logical person. I understand that she’s been out for 6 months and that it takes time to get up to speed. I also understand that as a new mother she has responsibilities and needs that work time needs to accommodate.

    We had several meetings this week. There were two that she should have attended to put her face back in front of people and get the latest update. She couldn’t attend either of them for baby-related reasons, so I attended as I’ve been doing. And normally, I wouldn’t care. I wouldn’t mind filling in for her either. But, I’m tired of being in charge without being in charge. And I’m now slightly bitter that I’m being asked to transition my boss back into her position and accommodate her schedule, almost as a favor with a couple of Thank you very muches thrown in. My stipend to run the department ended when she returned. No one has talked with me about WTH my role is now that she’s back (I’m still doing the work I was doing before she was here, nothing has been taken off my plate, aside from a weekly report) and I’m basically walking a tightrope of accommodating everyone but my damn self. And the truly crappy part is that I can’t really advocate aggressively because it’s been a difficult time and it would feel particularly scummy to say, Yo I need to be compensated for the crappy situation we have been in and you need to be nicer to me.

    I don’t know. I feel taken advantage of. It’s not new. It’s happened before. They will probably throw a $1500 bonus at me to shut me up and I’ll be fine until they take advantage of me again.

    1. fposte*

      It’s always frustrating when you feel like you’re being asked to do work without the pay or recognition. I think some of your expectations are probably based on institutional norms that I don’t know, so I can’t speak to stuff like compensation, but can you take the initiative on meeting with your boss and creating a timeline for when tasks will be turned back over to her, and if there’s pushback on that then suggesting an additional stipend for what looks like a longer transition period than initially expected?

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Did you ask your boss whether she wanted you to cover for her? I think that’s the first step. She may not even realize how much of her job you’re still doing. She may expect you to keep doing it (in which case, asking her will get her to say so, which puts you in a strong position to say, “I can do that like I’ve been doing, but I need my salary to reflect that”), or she may be okay with letting things slide while she’s getting up to speed (in which case she, not you, should deal with any negative blowback this causes; if people come to you with complaints, “you’ll have to talk to Boss about that now that she’s back”).

      Just because no one above you has told you what your role is moving forward, doesn’t mean you can’t initiate the conversation. Talk to your boss about the items you’ve been doing, which ones she wants you to continue doing, which ones she wants you to stop doing immediately, and which ones she wants you to phase out. And if the list of “continue doing” is long enough, by all means talk to her about making sure your salary reflects that!

  158. Employee Feedback Woes*

    I have questions about how to handle my CEO’s reaction to poor employee feedback. For reference, we’re a medium size business, who uses a PEO for HR needs. I am an individual contributor (unrelated to HR) who is on an internal team that deals with employee management/culture (big picture issues, not specific management issues).

    We’ve recently implemented more ways for employees to give us feedback, like feedback surveys and stay interviews (similar questions you’d get asked in an exit interview). These are anonymous and handled by our PEO.

    When we received the results from the employee feedback survey, the small internal team I am on (plus a rep from our PEO) met to discuss it. Overall the results were really good, but about half the questions had at least one “strongly disagree” (or the equivalent negative answer).

    CEO spent most of the meeting complaining about this instead of focusing on overall results. It got to the point where he basically said we needed to figure out who that person was so we could address it and “maybe they don’t need to be working here anymore.” He even named who he thought it was – I have very good reason to believe it wsn’t this person due to something that happened after the meeting, but never addressed it because I knew he’d ask me who I thought it was and I didn’t want to start him on it again.

    In the meeting, I spoke up and said that if anyone felt like we were going on a witch hunt for people who gave negative answers, we’d never get honest results again. He acknowledged that was true but still talked about it for a few minutes before moving on.

    So, fast forward to now – we should be getting the results of the first round of stay interviews soon. If there are negative comments, I honestly expect the same results. Any advice on how to kind of head this off or what to do in the meeting to address it if it happens again? I do truly believe employee feedback is important and does get taken seriously, but if his response is to want to go on a witch hunt for whoever gave bad results… then I’m not sure it’s worth continuing.

    1. Snark*

      I mean, it’s already not not worth continuing. Your CEO is doing exactly what every employee fears when they have “anonymous” surveys – that they won’t be really anonymous.

      There are ways to aggregate survey data in a way that anonymizes answers more, but I’d argue that this is going to be more harmful than not.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I really feel for the falsely accused employee! This is my nightmare, that my reputation and career would be tanked and I wouldn’t even know why – because of someone else’s wrong guess. Yikes.

        1. Employee Feedback Woes*

          Yeah, I’ve really struggled with whether or not to say anything about it to the CEO. The main reason I didn’t was basically a lower stakes trolley problem – it would potentially reveal multiple other people’s answers – which I definitely didn’t want to do. I also wasn’t 100% definite on it.

          As far as I can tell, the CEO never said anything to that employee and they haven’t been treated any differently. But I can’t say for sure that the CEO doesn’t view them differently.

          1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

            It sounds like the CEO already had a poor opinion of this person even before the reviews, so I doubt it made much of a difference.

            Have you asked the CEO what he expects/expected to receive and how he intended to use this information all along? I get the impression he wasn’t prepared to have any negative answers at all and in even the most fabulous company, that would still be unrealistic. People have all kinds of weird hang ups.

            My university is updating our strategic plan for the next 5-10-20 years and had a survey to find out what current students, faculty, staff, and administration thought should be priorities. The survey was anonymous but comments ended up being published publicly — holy hell the weird stuff people think are priorities or good suggestions for a medium sized university. Everything from knocking down classroom buildings to add more grassy space, to closing off city streets because it’s just too hard to wait for the light so pedestrians can cross.

  159. AnonForToday*

    This probably falls into the category of “things suck and they are not going to change” but here goes my vent: I work for a contentwidget company where they expect you to work 24/7 and have limited vacation and sick time policies, expect a lot of travel, and don’t give you comp time for it when it falls over a weekend. They recently celebrated and held up as a fantastic employee someone who literally worked from a hospital bed. Officially, they are against WFH too, although I am now learning that some managers allow it and even an executive does it. Mine does not, even though I am more productive on the rare days that I do due to snow or some other off reason.
    OK, rant over, I feel better now.
    If you have ever successfully changed company culture please comment, thought I might be better off looking for a dodo bird. Or another job.

    1. Brain Fog*

      Oh, wow. My company seems to be quite the opposite. My coworker’s dog was diagnosed with cancer and she came in crying and upset. My boss sent her home early and told her not to worry about coming in the next day, either. This is after she had already taken a collective four days off over the previous two weeks to sit at home feeling sad about her dog (before the cancer diagnosis). She then spent the next week and a half (hardly) working from home because she needed to “be with her dog.” And this was all before they even knew how serious the cancer even was (as it turns out, not serious and totally treatable).

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        Oh my. I read this initially as your coworker being diagnosed with cancer, and I was thinking, “Man, Brain Fog is being a little harsh!” But then I went back and reread, and I just…O.o.

        1. Brain Fog*

          Haha. See my other post below. This is one of the two coworkers I reference. You can see why I have absolutely no respect for her.

  160. Brain Fog*

    I posted a couple weeks ago about dealing with a chronic health issue, but feeling reluctant to take a lot of time off for it because a couple others in my department regularly abuse sick time. I don’t at all begrudge people for using benefit time, but I’ve since discovered a few things that aggravate me about these two coworkers: Apparently both have side hustles. One coworker confirmed to me that they regularly use their sick time to work on their side gig; other coworker likely does the same given the nature and timing of their freelance work. I also suspect both do their side hustles while AT work, which is a total conflict of interest (we have to sign a conflict of interest policy stating we will not do outside work on company time and with company equipment; if we violate this, we can be held accountable by state law to reimburse the government for costs incurred). Both coworkers come in late and leave early pretty much on a daily basis, but this laxity reached new heights recently when our boss was out on extended medical leave for several weeks and grandboss had a death in the family. Both coworkers treated their tragedies as a personal vacation. We’re talking coming in 1-2 hours late and leaving 3-4 hours early, or not coming in at all. Of course, neither used benefit time for their very liberal time off and boss returned to work none the wiser.

    We’re not really held to production standards given the nature of the projects we work on and it’s easy for coworkers to BS about how long it takes them to work on their projects, so they continue to skate by doing low levels of productivity. Coworker’s absences don’t really affect my projects and I’m not about to tattle (my position is that it’s an issue for my boss to notice and address), but we work for a nonprofit and their lack of professionalism and work ethic just completely unnerves me. We are given incredible autonomy over our workload, are not held to a timeclock and have pretty cool bosses who don’t micromanage us in the slightest, and they take advantage of it and exploit our awesome perks. It really just ticks me off.

    Anyone else have coworkers like this? How’d you manage to not explode on them?

    1. Swimmergurl*

      I’m a huge fan of work-life balance, but I also think when people stop challenging themselves, just punch-in, punch-out, and are less engaged, the organization does suffer.

      Maybe rather than tattling, if you’re launching a new initiative or program, you could suggest to a manager that “so and so” seems to have extra capacity to take “x, y, and z” tasks on, since they come in at 10 a.m. and leave at 3 p.m.

      Or you could come up with a few things you’ve always wanted to get done but can’t get to and ask your manager if you could assign some of those tasks, projects, etc. to them.

    2. Bridgette*

      I have coworkers like this. Coworker A does have a side hustle and lies through their teeth about their time and everyone knows it, but they are exempt so they just lie about how much comp time they have. The other one comes in whenever and then lies about staying late to “make up” the time. If I came in at 8:30, you come in at 10 and I see you walking out as I leave the parking lot, you are not staying late enough to “make up” the time. That person is also exempt. I don’t begrudge exempt workers their flexibility, but when they never work 40 or more hours a week and lie about doing so, it makes it hard to have any respect for them. If I don’t work, I don’t get paid but they can work as little as they like and still get paid. No, they do not work from home after hours or on the weekend because we are not allowed to and that’s the one thing they really are hard line about.

      As far as not exploding on them, I just repeat to myself over and over that as long as it doesn’t affect my job it’s not my problem. IF it ever did affect my job, then yeah, I’m going to be calling them out on their BS.

      1. AnonForToday*

        It’s these people who ruin it for the rest of us, though, that’s the problem. My company is extreme the other way, but I was just out running errands on my day off and also thinking about our bereavement policy, which is TWO DAYS off. When my elderly father dies, that is obviously not going to cut it, and since we have daily and weekly quotas in the widget factory and metrics are tracked, it’s not a place where you can suffer in “presenteeism.”
        FWIW, everyone at my company is exempt except for interns and contractors.

  161. Pup Seal*

    Nothing to ask but wanted to share my awkward work story yesterday.

    Where I work, we use an iPad to schedule appointments. I went to look something up on Safari for a client, and I found an tab of porn opened. While the iPad is for work, it also belongs to my boss, who’s an older woman in her sixties. Yep.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Hey man, senior ladies love the videos too! (Sidenote, I remember the last porn debate on AAM I stated that porn viewing is underreported in women and it’s a stereotype that we don’t look at it. Some people strongly disagreed. It might be generational – although not in your bosses case! – but we do.

      1. Snark*

        For me, it’s not the identity of the person, it’s the position. “Hi boss, here’s your TPS reports, and I’m trying very hard not to think about how I know what porn you like”

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Also it is weird to be reminded that the quite old can still be total kinksters. I don’t like to think about my gramma that way!!

          1. fposte*

            But you know, I think that’s kind of an unexamined prejudice–it’s considered okay to be ageist about sex, mostly because the people making those observations are younger rather than older. But to me including her age in there is kind of like including her race–if that’s part of why it shocks somebody, it’s because of their own prejudices.

            1. Lil Fidget*

              Very fair! Didn’t mean to offend. I do think it’s especially targeted at women of a certain age – as I would not have been surprised if it was a senior guy, so there’s definitely implicit bias going on.

              1. fposte*

                I’m pretty hard to offend :-). I just think that this is an interesting exception in an era that’s very focused on prejudicial thinking; I think it’s another example of the understandable fact that we have more awareness about the situations that apply to ourselves or our cohort. For me the boss is probably closer to my cohort, so that’s why it strikes me. (Still don’t want to see her porn, though.)

      1. amy l*

        I would totally say, “Hey, boss. Next time please close your porn site. I don’t want to see it.” Then let it go. But, really – ick. Ick.

  162. I'm Not Phyllis*

    Anonymous surveys at work – do you really believe they’re anonymous? How much does this affect what you say?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      We did one that I answered honestly but I never will again. A) In many cases, you can figure out who someone is pretty easily, as they often ask department and job level info. B) Even if you can’t tell, in my office the HR person and the Senior Directors were emailing around comments trying to figure out who might have said them (and this was with a third party evaluation team that swore up and down things would be confidential). I know because a friend was accidentally forwarded one of the conversations. It was SOOO juvenile.

      My advice would be stick to the most plain, anodyne, defensible comments – and don’t say anything that you wouldn’t say to your CEO’s face. It reminds me of all the comments on the “exit interview” – it just doesn’t serve you to stick your neck out on these things.

    2. LQ*

      I think it varies. I generally assume they aren’t unless I have good reason to believe they are (I’m sort of positioned to have a good feel for which is which).

      It depends. We get one yearly from our IT department and I doubt it’s actually confidential, but I LET LOOSE on it. Every year I go into a ton of detail of the problems and concerns and all of it including specific incidents that even if it is anon, they could figure out who I was…but I know that my boss and his boss would both back me 100% on it. And the scores are poor and the comments are true but not intentionally mean, just detailed. And then I usually have something to say about public service which, might be readable as mean but for someone who thinks its mean I don’t care all that much about their opinion on it.

      For internal stuff that’s not as anonymous I’m generally pretty honest but I definitely put more sugar on it.

      If I am concerned I just don’t respond at all.

    3. anon24*

      At my husband’s old job they had to do a survey that was through a third party company – one of those, best places to work in X state kind of things. They were told by both his company and the third party company that his company would never have access to the results. After everyone took the survey, people were pulled into the manager’s office to discuss specific comments they made on the survey. So yeah, not only did his company see the results but they were told who said what.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      That they’re not anonymous at all, especially in a company as small as mine. Ours sends the data out to a third party for analysis, and the third party won’t send back data parsed out into groups smaller than I think 7 people (so if you want to know “how did the production department respond to question 24?” but the production department has only 5 people, they won’t tell you). The problem is that even with a group of 7, you can pretty much guess who’s feeling what, especially when the third party provides quotes and pins them to one specific department.

      So I stick to uncontroversial opinions, when I express any at all.

    5. MassholeMarketer*

      HA no. I handle surveys at my work and I am usually able to figure out who the person is that sent the response.

      Some definitely are, especially if the survey is through a third party. But knowing what I know now, I don’t think I’ll every trust an anonymous survey ever again.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Can I ask how? Is it because the department / salary information is included in the survey, or is there like a tech reason like the computer’s information is recorded.

        1. MassholeMarketer*

          We use a survey website called SurveyTown, which records exactly when a survey is taken. If the email is sent out via Outlook, I’m not able to track and see who it is, so I guess it’s technically anonymous. When we use MailChimp, however, I’m able to see exactly when someone clicks on a survey link and can match it to when the survey was complete. It’s not as easy to do right when the survey gets released because everyone takes it ASAP, but it’s easy to figure out for the people that wait to take the survey.

    6. Opulent Octopus*

      I don’t believe that they’re anonymous at all, and it definitely affects what I say. I have seen firsthand the CEO at another job get pissed about a comment and immediately start trying to find the specific person. I think IT eventually lied by omission to him to get him to stop his rampage. I stick to things that I’d be comfortable saying in person and are mostly minor or easily addressed. The only way to get honest feedback is to make it safe for people to do that by soliciting feedback, reacting well, and making a sincere effort to address or explain problems that are brought up. Companies that do that generally aren’t the ones trying to do anonymous surveys, it seems, though.

    7. Goya de la Mancha*

      Nothing for work is 100% anonymous and all survey’s are answered accordingly.

    8. k.k*

      We do one that I am confident is anonymous, because I’m familiar with the third party survey tool. But I think if you write any comments they are pretty easy to identify. Especially if you work in a small company or department.

    9. Where's my coffee?*

      Most of them actually are anonymous–especially if they’re administered by a legit third party like Gallup. But yeah, if you’re a manager with 50 direct reports, you probably already have a good idea of who is unhappy, and some managers do go on a witch hunt. It’s one of many reasons I think surveys are an overrated tool in a general employee experience strategy.

    10. Employee Feedback Woes*

      Hah see my very related question several above this one…

      They can be, especially when handled by a third party. But you don’t always know that going in.

      But what I’ve learned is that even anonymous results can be fairly easy to figure out if you already have an idea who is unhappy and why they’re unhappy. This is especially true depending on the format of the answers. If the results show all of Person A’s answers in one column, all of Person B’s answers in one column and so on, it can be easy to figure out.

    11. Jennifer*

      Look for anything about 360 reviews here. They are anonymous unless someone chooses that they aren’t going to be… Suffice it to say that when we were told to do a 360 survey on the most difficult person here I gave them RAVE reviews.

  163. MercyMe*

    So, my position is technically an entry-level one, and I have almost no prior experience in the field. But the job, I’m finding out, involves going to a site and basically managing a crew, telling people what to do and watching them do it. When I’m on the site, they expect me to be the expert and make expert recommendations. In reality, the people I am managing often have much more experience than me. I have supervisors I ask when something doesn’t make sense, but it seems to undermine my credibility to have to call the office every time something comes up. So, how do I portray confidence and competence in skills that I barely have?

    1. CheeryO*

      Is it something like construction inspection? I have a bit of experience in that field. I do think it’s okay to call your supervisor when you need clarification on something – you want a good end result, so making sure the work is done correctly is more important than anything else (although I know that it’s not fun to feel like you have no credibility, since you’re supposed to be an authority figure). If you feel totally overwhelmed, it’s on your company to give you a little more training.

      Also, something that’s been helpful to me even after moving into a slightly different but related field is to not be afraid to bounce ideas off of the more experienced people, regardless of their title or role in the project. You have to be tactful and make sure they know you aren’t expecting them to do the job for you, but people generally love to have input and feel like their experience is valued. It’s a lot easier to ask someone what they think about X and say, “You know, that sounds really good – let me just confirm with my boss” than it is to start from a totally blank slate.

  164. Anon around the world*

    I just need to vent a bit. 6 months ago I had finally landed in my dream industry after a lot of struggling. However, I’ve found out I’m so far the only one with my title who’s contract wasn’t extended and was told it was because the positions were being treated as permanent revolving 6-month jobs. Despite that I had a feeling something else influenced the decision and after talking with another PA who just had theirs extended, it confirmed what I thought. We recently went through a merging of departments (the other department’s big project was canceled) and all the similar groups merged, meaning we gained 2 more in our field and their lead was made the lead over mine and he had his own assistant (who had same title as me but been here 2 months longer). This all happened about 1-2 months before my contract was to end and I’d been asking since the beginning of the year about extending my contract and was finally told a couple weeks ago it wouldn’t. So I’m pretty upset that 1) I’m going to be unemployed yet again and I don’t have the best of luck finding a job 2) means I’ll still be living at home (I’ve been out of college for 5 years now with jobs that either paid too little to rent or too short term to find a place) and 3) I’m pretty bitter because I have a feeling if there wasn’t that merge, I could have gotten extended. So all in all, not happy, especially since this company is very well known in its industry and I’d rather have stayed here for at least a year or more before moving on. The only silver lining is that this industry, it’s pretty normal for people to stay less than a year at places (think like teachers, where it’s well known they’re basically unemployed at certain times).

    All that said, I do have one interview lined up next week. While the position itself is a step up, the company is a lot smaller and I’m worried I’d be drastically underpaid if I got it.

  165. Super stressed*

    I’m going through some stuff right now – my boyfriend broke up with me less than a week ago, and my mom is going through some housing issues and has to stay with me, my two roommates, my two cats, and her two dogs – Extremely Not Ideal).
    I’m doing my best to carry on, but I have been distracted and visibly sad and anxious at work all this week. In the hopes of improving, I immediately got myself into therapy. Unfortunately, if I wanted to wait for my therapist to have a slot that is available after work, I would have had to wait two months for an appointment. I decided to go ahead and schedule my therapy sessions so that I would basically be gone from work for 2 hours one afternoon a week, and work remotely to finish out the day.

    Here’s the trouble: my boss told me that I’m expected snap out of it and be “back to normal” by the end of next week. I totally understand that my personal life should not be conflicting with my work performance (as much as possible), but this has really put me in a bind with my therapy appointments and makes me feel as though I made a mistake in scheduling them. I really don’t want to cancel them, and can’t imagine being “back to normal” without some outside help. How should I handle this? Do I have a choice other than to reschedule my appointments? Is there language I can use with my manager to explain that I need to be in weekly doctor appointments for the short term but will make up my hours by coming in early, skipping lunch, etc?

    1. Havarti*

      I’m really sorry you’re going through this. Your boss sounds very unkind. Does your boss know why you’re sad and distracted? If not, you could spin it as you have a health issue so you need to go to these appointments at these hours to resolve it. Which technically isn’t a lie. But if your boss does know, well, you sound like you still need help sooner rather than later. Is there any way you can sorta stuff all the bad stuff into a mental box while at work to lessen the distraction? Your boss might be more willing to accommodate your schedule if they seem some semblance of “back to normal” even if it’s just a facade.

    2. soupmonger*

      It sounds as if you need to cultivate more of a facade at work. We all do this to some degree or other – while I’d have sympathy with an employee in your circumstances, I’d still expect them to be working at more-or-less full capacity. I’d not expect someone working a front desk, say, to be ‘visibly sad’ – I’d expect them to put a professional facade on and get on with it. Sorry if this sounds harsh – it’s not meant to. But it is what’s expected in most workplaces. Nothing stopping you carrying on with your appointments- but can you schedule them for the end of your day? That might help. Hope things get better for you soon.

    3. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I’m sorry, that’s a lot to handle at once. Couldn’t “back to normal” be interpreted as more attitude than seat in chair? I’d say you could assume that you don’t need to cancel already scheduled medical appointments. Alison has written a lot about how the nature of your medical appointments isn’t something you have to share with work. And when you’re at your next appointment see how far out you need to schedule to get a slot that’s better for your work schedule. I know those appointments are in high demand and tough to get with therapists who tend to see people at the same time each week, but maybe something will open up soon. At the very least you’ll be on the list of people who need one of those slots.

      To riff off of soupmonger’s advice, is there something physical you can do to signal to yourself that you’re in professional set-aside-you-feelings mode? Similar to how an interview suit helps you be more professional in interviews. Can you dress a little more professionally, wear different shoes, use a special coffee mug, wear your hair differently, listen to something special on your way to work…even having a special work area decoration that you mentally designate as your professional behavior signal could help.

  166. Internal Promotion*

    Hope I’m not too late to the party.

    I have a question about internal promotions. Mostly about what type of raise I can expect. I was promoted before at my company but received only a 5% raise. I was disappointed at first but after performing the job for a while I realize it was pretty reasonable.

    The current promotion I am going for is more advanced. It is also fortunately related to my degree.

    I would be going from essentially an assistant to the actual role.

    There about a 30-50% pay difference between the two roles.

    What would be reasonable for this transition?

    I will most likely take the job no matter what but want to curb my expectations. I am bringing a lot of institutional and client based knowledge to the role so it will be frustrating if the raise is lacking despite all this.

    I would also be adding hours onto my schedule.

    Thanks for the responses. Apologies for any errors. I am typing this on my phone.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I wish your more success than I had with this. When I was promoted internally, they offered me a much lower salary than I know they paid others that had come in externally at that level – 5K over my current salary, although it was more work and responsibility. I tried to push back – no dice, because they knew I wasn’t going to turn down the promotion, and because they knew exactly what I had been making so they felt quite comfortable providing “a bump” over my old salary. If you’re committed to getting a higher salary you may have to accept looking externally as well. But that was only my personal experience, I hope its not universal.

  167. Sm-access!*

    Hi all–I have largely self-taught myself MS Access. I know zero coding, and am pretty challenged here, but despite this I have managed to build a couple of really tiny, but helpful databases for our department. I am in process with a new db and having a dickens of a time with a single control on a form. Anyone willing to take a peek at it to see what I’ve done wrong? My apologies if this is the wrong place for this.

  168. Tau*

    What should you do re: letting people know if you negotiate an exception to the standard work schedule?

    This week, my job went from a very vague “uh we’d rather you work in the office and we’d rather you be around at reasonable times and attend meetings but really nothing is set in stone” working hours policy to core hours with defined WFH days and access to a coworking space that’s closer to a lot of people’s homes. The policy was not so great for me because I don’t really do WFH, live closer to the office than the new coworking space, and I’m an early bird in an office of night owls who left earlier than the end of the new core hours most days. I brought this up with my team lead in our one-on-one and negotiated permission to leave early on Fridays.

    Now I’m not sure who I should be informing about this? I let the colleagues I work most closely with know, since they’re the ones most likely to need something from me, but I’m not sure if I should tell the rest of the team. On the one hand, I feel awkward basically making an announcement “hey btw I’m special and get to leave at three”. On the other, I also feel awkward swanning out the door over an hour before everyone knows core hours are meant to end. And there’s always the possibility that someone I don’t usually work closely with will have a question after I leave.

    The whole thing is just a mess, really. My job is relatively good about this (especially compared to what I’ve heard on here), but I hate being made to feel like I’m not a team player or not dedicated to my job because I guard my free time jealously and am generally unwilling to work late without the possibility of leaving early at some point in the future to make up for it. I have a disability where past experiences lead me to be extremely concerned about the possibility of complete burn-out which is why I’m so reluctant to go over 40 hours/week on average long-term, but I’m super super not out about that at work and end up flailing around trying to justify myself instead. :(

    1. Reba*

      Hm, I don’t think it would be a big deal to send an email to the whole team (not sure what segment of company is meant by this though) along the lines of “FYI folks, starting on DATE I am going to be heading out around X pm on Fridays. If something comes up when I’m out, please ask Marceline or send me a flagged email and I’ll get to it Monday morning!” Or whatever language would work. Doesn’t have to be awkward.

      Good for you for negotiating the hours!

  169. Erin*

    Yikes I’m way late to the game! I intended to post hours earlier. Darn actual work happening at work.

    I wanted to ask – With April Fool’s Day coming up, does anyone have any good office pranks that have actually been successful? I’ve seen a few pranks gone horribly wrong mentioned on AAM, but any decent ones?

    We’ve been pranking at my work recently as part of our “Office Olympics.” I think my favorite I saw so far was a Chrome extension that makes all images look like Nicholas Cage. Any other good ones?

    Full disclosure: I’m toying with the idea of blogging about office pranks, and might include ones mentioned here if that’s okay with y’all and Alison.

    1. Fabulous*

      I’m a natural blonde but I once wore a dark wig to work in my same hairstyle. Everyone thought I’d dyed my hair and I got so many comments. It was very funny when I showed up the next day with blonde hair again!

    2. EvilQueenRegina*

      Here’s the one I never did but sometimes wished I had: At Exjob my BEC, Cruella, had got it into her head that the cleaners had been helping themselves to this big box of chocolates we had been given as a Christmas treat, (there was no evidence to suggest that at the time but to be honest it wouldn’t have bothered me if they had) wouldn’t stop going on about it and kept saying she was going to start counting the chocolates that were left every night and then again every morning to see if anyone had been helping themselves. To this day, I wish I’d hidden a few before she started counting, put them back afterwards and watched her wonder why there were more chocolates in the morning than there were the night before. (Of course, I realise that could have backfired on me if there really was a thief…)

      When I worked with the handyperson service, someone made up a fake parking ticket and stuck it on one of the work vans and this one handyman thought he’d really got a parking fine.

      Someone else at the same job once came in to find her stapler in a bowl of orange jelly.

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      I worked in a small building with one tiny, dimly lit bathroom. Somebody left a large toy rat on the toilet paper holder. When you opened the door, you would see this large, dark shape with a long tail and beady eyes staring at you. People screamed all day long, and then burst out laughing once they turned the lights on, since it was very obviously a toy. (The co-worker who did it actually made sure no one was phobic beforehand, so this was a well-thought out prank.)

    4. Crylo Ren*

      I’ve done googly eyes on everything and wrapping a coworker’s entire cubicle in pages from an old direct mailer the company used to do.

      One I just heard of today: one of my coworkers found one of those 30-minute Vine loops (think something similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i0i-y6iDKo). He then proceeded to call his direct report and leave a VM of that loop for him to find when he got in to the office the next morning. I think it captured around 15 minutes.

    5. amy l*

      At Old Job, someone had gone around and unplugged EVERYONE ‘S mouse. Once a few of us early arrivals caught on, we would watch others as they came in and tried to wake their computers. Then we watched as some would crawl under the desk, some would swear and bang the poor mouse. We would step in and explain it they picked up the phone to call IT.

      No one ever took responsibility that I know of.

    6. New Bee*

      This happened a few months ago, so not specifically for AF, but I work at a school, and we found an old, mildewy baby doll in the back of one of the classroom closets (similar to Big Baby in Toy Story, but with all 4 limbs intact. We took pictures of it, printed them in different sizes, and hid them all over the front office desks–on the keyboard, taped over the face in a family pic on her desk, under the phone, etc.

    7. valc2323*

      Ctrl+arrow key (any arrow key) will shift the orientation of your computer screen so that the bottom edge is now along the left side, right side, or top. Because this is a hard-coded keyboard command, you don’t need to be able to log onto someone’s computer to do this. I always wanted to come in really early some AF and set everyone’s screens to upside-down, but never worked in a place where it would be laughed off.

    8. Alianora*

      Kind of stupid, but my coworkers and I used to turn the lights on and off on each other when we were coming in. Started out as a prank to make the others think there was a power outage, but it turned into just a way of saying hello. (Our workspace was set up so that the entrance and the light switch weren’t visible from where we worked.)

  170. Kay*

    Can we have a conversation about what are and what are not legitimate work-related travel expenses?

    My job is changing so that I am traveling frequently – sometimes spending all week on the road, driving my own car, across the state. I was given a work credit card but zero guidance on how to use it.

    I know if I try to have a more in depth conversation with him about this, my boss’s reaction will range from “do whatever you feel is reasonable” and annoyance that I’m looking for more specific guidance. He’s not a detail guy.

    No one has commented on my expenses in the ~5 months I’ve been doing this, so that’s one piece of data. The other is that I try to reflect back when I traveled alongside the previous person to hold my job, and adjust accordingly for length/importance of project/urgency of travel. Overall context is small nonprofit where money is not tight but we’re not swimming in it. I know that my boss is trying to move the organization from a mindset of scarcity to a mindset of finding the tools we need to do the best job we can, trying to offload the money worries from program staff to development staff.

    My rule of thumb for food is that if I’m traveling during the time when I would have been eating, I buy myself food. But sometimes I have 7+ hour driving days and I’ve also made pit stops for coffee, snacks, etc. If I’m meeting with a partner, I’ll pick up their coffee. I don’t buy alcohol. If I need office supplies, I’ll buy those. Does that seem reasonable? What would feel like over the line to you?

    1. Havarti*

      Work-related expenses would be things like gas, food, and office supplies. Keep in mind you should be compensated for the wear and tear on your car and you need to eat. Do you have a per diem for food? If you’re in the US you can use the government’s website (Per Diem Rates Look-Up) to get an idea of what it would cost to feed yourself on a daily basis wherever you’re located. You’re not buying booze and it doesn’t sound like Guacamole Bob is going after you so you’re probably doing ok.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I struggle with this all the time, but ultimately I end up being conservative about what I report for reimbursement. For example, last time I was driving home, I got lost. The only reason I was in that area was because of work, so I was kind of hacked that I was going to pay out of pocket for the extra mileage (and it was a good chunk of miles before I got myself back in the right direction) – but I’m not going to take them to the mat for something that was my fault. Sometimes I also buy myself a cheer-up morning coffee when I have an early meeting far away – nope, I don’t charge them for that either, as it wasn’t required like a meal, it was more optional. After four hours of driving I stop for food because I’m bored, not necessarily because I’m hungry – nope, don’t charge them that either. It does suck because it’s only one way – if I work through lunch and don’t eat, I don’t like, get to claim money back. But I figure c’est la vie.

    3. Jady*

      Sounds like you’re erring hard on the conservative side – which is fine if you’re comfortable with that.

      What usually goes on the company card for a regular business –

      All hotel bookings, but not things “pay per view” movies at the hotel.

      All flight bookings, but not things like alcohol on flights.

      Your typical meals – breakfast, lunch and dinner, typically up to 20-50 each bucks depending on the company size. Some companies have a per diem limit total on meals. Plus any client dinner expenses, which would include a small amount of alcohol. I’d leave off any food between meals.

      Cab fares, car rentals, gas. Coffees. Work-related supplies. Nothing sight-seeing related, happy hours, clubs, etc.

      This is for your typical business. A non-profit may limit meals to a smaller amount or have caps on flight and hotel and rental costs.

      But the idea around meals is that you’ll be eating out exclusively, so the cost is more expensive than if you were at home (assuming you don’t eat out for every meal every day).

    4. Reba*

      Not directly to your question, but it also sounds like you should propose some kind of mileage reimbursement, since you’re dramatically increasing the use of your car.

    5. Thlayli*

      Does your organisation have a policy?

      At my old job our policy was:
      – Mileage for personal cars (this was generous and more than covered the cost including gas). If you are only charging for gas you might want to consider mileage to cover insurance, wear and tear etc.
      – accommodation when travelling
      – all food when travelling, no questions asked so long as receipts were submitted (they might have asked questions if I’d had 3 dinners a day though)
      – Alcohol when on the same bill as Food only (eg wine with dinner is paid for, a drink at the bar is not)
      – reasonable tips with taxis etc are allowed
      – cost for taking out cash in local currency on company credit card
      – reasonable exchange rate allowance for anything in local currency (we could set the exchange rate and I always used the European Central Bank website to set it if I bought something in cash)

      We also had a disturbance allowance for overseas overnights, but not in the same country.

  171. MassholeMarketer*

    I think I’m a little late here but I’ve been at my current job (fresh out of college) for over two years now and as happy as I am, I’m starting to feel like I should look elsewhere because there isn’t much room to grow promotion-wise (I’m in marketing so I definitely want to stay in marketing).

    I just applied to another job and I feel awful and paranoid that someone is going to find out, but the job was really too good to pass up. Is it normal to feel this way? I’d only really leave if they were to offer better benefits and more pay. The industry I’m in now is health insurance and that’s… well, about as fun as it sounds.

    Thank you!

    1. Fabulous*

      Don’t feel guilty! If there’s no room for growth, there’s no room for growth. It’s a common thing to have to look elsewhere if you want to move up the career ladder. That being said… growth doesn’t always come in the form of promotions. It comes from adding new work to your plate, learning new skills and feeling challenged by what you’re doing.

      Though, I may be a bit jaded as I graduated college in 2007 when the market crashed and there was literally no growth in any entry-level position I had so I hopped around a bit to get to a place where I at least felt challenged. Ten years later and I still feel like I’m stuck in entry-level positions…

      1. MassholeMarketer*

        Ugh, that sucks. I’m sorry to hear that. That’s what I’m kind of worried about – being stuck in entry-level positions forever. The place I just applied to is a casino that is opening up near me and I feel like there could definitely be growth there.

        My marketing department was just my position for 20 years, and they finally added a manager for me. So now I either wait until my manager leaves or figure out something else…

        1. Fabulous*

          Don’t forget too – sometimes promotions are for the same position, i.e. Marketer, Marketer 2, Marketer 3, Senior Marketer, etc. You can be doing basically the same thing (or with new/more challenging work on your plate) just with more pay and a title add-on.

        1. Fabulous*

          I’m still working on finding something in my field… Finally found a decent contender though (see my post a few below)!!

    2. SophieChotek*

      Yep – graduated in 2008 and still looking for a job in/more related to my field. (Or even just a better job!)

    3. Reba*

      I think it’s normal to feel weird about making moves to leave a job … and it’s also normal to leave jobs.

      Good luck with your search!

  172. Lila*

    I’m dealing with a quandary right now – I’ve been unemployed for over a year and still looking for work. But a recent development has happened- my aunt is very sick and not getting better and I want to visit her in the next couple of weeks. The problem is, she lives in the UK and I live in Canada so going there for even a week is gonna be expensive. I was thinking of getting a temp job to make money then start my job hunt again after I come back but I’m in the process of waiting to hear back about a second round of interviews for one job and then some other leads. I’m at a loss about what to do because while my other said she’d help out for the plane ticket (and I’d pay it back once I found work), I still need spending money because it’s not like I’m never leaving my aunt’s house and not eating anything. So yeah. Does anyone have any advice for me?

    1. BadPlanning*

      I’ve done factory work where it is basically day to day temping through a temp agency. We had to check everyday if they wanted us back (the turn over was high enough that in reality you were telling them, yes I can come in tomorrow, I don’t remember anyone actually getting told they were full).

    2. Thlayli*

      I think borrow the money and go visit your aunt, but also get a temp job. I’ve never understood the idea behind not having ANY work while job hunting. Get a part time job or a temp job to tide you over. Lots of retail or temp places are always looking for staff and they’re well used to people only staying short term. You can leave if off your resume if you think it looks worse to put it on.

  173. AeroEngineer*

    I phrased this question badly last week, so here I try again:

    What is the standard time between getting an offer and starting? A lot of the positions I apply for have no start date, so I can say when I start, but what would be a reasonable time and what would be an unreasonable time?

    1. Izzy Legal*

      I don’t ever recall seeing a job posting where the start date is listed. Generally, during the phone interview or one of the in-person interviews, an ‘if offered the position, when could you start?’ question will come up. The standard response (by you) at that time would be two weeks.

      The offer letter from the new company will have the start date listed, along with salary, title, etc. That date is usually two weeks from the date the offer letter is sent. So, it’s generally expected that once you sign/return the offer letter, you go to your current manager/company and give two weeks’ notice. Some higher-level positions might require three weeks, but two is fairly standard.

      Hope this helps!

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Depends on how high up / in demand you are. In a senior position, a month isn’t uncommon because it’s assumed you’d have to do a lot of wrap up at your old job. In an entry level position they’ll expect you to start about two weeks after they make the offer – MAYBE three weeks, if there’s a move involved, in my experience. I’m midlevel and I’m really, really hoping I can negotiate a good chunk of time off before I start my next job because last time I left my prior job on a Tuesday and started the new one on Wednesday :(

    3. Chaordic One*

      Occasionally, for season type work, and especially with government jobs, there will be a definite start date. I applied for a 9-month long government job that had an application deadline in August, but the actual job didn’t start until December. This was all explained in the advertisement for the job on the USAJobs website.

  174. Depressed Designer*

    I’m currently trying to relocate out of a tiny college down I’ve been in for five years. I graduated last year with two different degrees in Design, and work in an office of 4; my boss/owner of the company, our part time data entry (her niece), my boss’s business partner, and myself as the Marketing Manager/Office Admin. I’m a department of one and stuck around for a year to live out my lease and save up, despite the daily Bad Boss Bingo and the therapy I’ve attended to deal with the situation I’m in. My boss’s family has been here for multiple generations, and I’ve seen two employees leave in the 9 mo I’ve been here, as well as the destroyed reputations of pervious employees in my exact position. I don’t want to stay longer than a year because my perspective of what is “normal” is completely broken at this point, and I don’t think staying in a small town is helping me at all for my career.

    That aside, I’m trying to relocate when my lease ends. I’ve be aggressively job searching for months, but I’m worried I’ve set myself up in the sweet spot of not being an ideal candidate in the design world. I’ve been in manager positions since my Junior year in college (So a solid 2+ years) and a Graphic Artist for Student Media for 3 years (So I was holding 3 jobs while finishing 2 degrees). I’m worried that staying the extra year post graduating and working for a small company makes me look too old for internships now, but inexperienced for anything else. I don’t regret it. I paid off a lot and was able to stay my partner’s last year of school, but now I’m getting a sense of dread.

    So how much weight does being in a small college town work against you for entry level design jobs? I don’t want to move without a job, but I can’t get a job where I’m at now. And for those of you in the design world, can you provide any tips for what you look for or find value in for a junior designer/entry level? How did you get your first design job?

  175. Newbie*

    I am having a very happy Friday since after about two months of job hunting, I was offered a position that I’m very excited about! The manager seems nice and the benefits seem amazing and I’m very excited for this new chapter. I’ve been wanting to leave my current position for a while and dysfunctional management was the final push that made me start looking. Now that I’ve gotten and accepted an offer though I feel super nervous and kind of… nostalgic, maybe? I think I’m feeling this way because even though current job drove me crazy I’ve been here for 2 years so I feel very comfortable. Management here is poor but it’s poor in a very predictable way, whereas this new opportunity will be all new people and an all new job and I think I’m just scared to jump into the unknown. Has anyone else felt this way? I tried to talk about this with my fiance and he looked at me like I was straight up crazy haha

    1. Jady*

      I’m always really nervous to start a new job. No matter how well you try to be prepared, there are always so many unknowns and variables.

      It’s one of those “evil you know vs. evil you don’t” situations.

    2. Flinty*

      Congratulations! I’ve totally felt this way. I was job hunting and trying to leave my last position for months, then when I got an offer, suddenly I was seeing everything through these sappy sepia-toned glasses and thinking about how I would miss everyone.

      It mostly went away after the first week at my new job, and completely went away with 6 months. Transitions are hard, especially if, like me, you like your routines :)

  176. Fabulous*

    I’ve been in my job for almost two years (my “official” 2yr mark isn’t until October, but I was hired as a temp in May 2016). I had always assumed I’d probably stay here for 5 years or more even though it’s not in my field, but I generally like what I do and I really like my coworkers and boss – I know that can be super hard to find! BUT… I just found a great position closer to home, in my field, and probably pays about $10-20k more than I currently make. I really hate that I haven’t worked anywhere for longer than 2 years ever (comes with the temping territory, which I did for many years) but I don’t know that I can pass up applying for this job! I know it doesn’t guarantee anything, but it’s nerve-wracking regardless.

    Writing a cover letter is hard! I’ve already taken so many pointers from this site and I think I have a great intro, I’m still stuck at the rest of the letter though. I’m trying may hardest to not just regurgitate my resume, instead by giving real life examples of things I’ve accomplished, but I feel like I’m taking too long to make a point and I’m having trouble relating the experiences to the job posting.

    So…
    How do you write succinct cover letters while using examples of accomplishments?
    I feel like a CL should be about one page. Do you abide by the same length or do you go longer/shorter?
    Do you try to hit every point in the job posting? For example, this posting covers 4 job areas and I can provide examples for each one, but is that going overboard? One example took an entire paragraph to describe.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Now that I’ve been in a position to be on the other side of the hiring process, I really, really appreciate when a cover letter is around 3/4 of a page. I think many applicants fall into the trap of trying to go into too much detail in describing why they’re a good match for the role. I don’t need 5 paragraphs explaining why you’re a line-for-line match. Find the one most compelling point and give me a few sentences on it.

      Example: I’m an event planner, and I’ve taken on old projects and reworked them to be more efficient and draw larger crowds. I could have gone into 4 paragraphs explaining every single thing I changed about the event to do this, but instead I generalized and say, “In 2017, I made enhancements to Big Network Event that led to a 147% increase in event attendance and a reduction of attrition to 1%.” or something.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        +1 Choose a couple of your strongest qualifications, and elaborate on those a bit. You absolutely don’t want a cover letter that’s a TL;DR.

  177. LQ*

    Giving advice out of your lane

    I’ve been doing, and been asked to do a lot of this lately. I’m (hopefully) on my way into a leadership role and more people in more departments are turning to me. Part of this is my director (still technically my boss’s boss) comes off to some people as hard to understand and a bit of a mystery. Part of this is other departments have had turn over and don’t have good relationships with him. I do (I think I do, they think I do) and so several other departments have frequently been coming to me asking for advice on how to talk with him or how to pitch him ideas. I’m occasionally horrified by what they want to propose or what they think matters to him or what their ideas are and I try to temper that because I don’t really have a ton higher level view so it might be a good idea I just don’t know enough. I’m still technically at the individual contributor level so I don’t see a lot that people higher than me should.

    For the most part my suggestions have (I think) worked out really well and the areas of the org seem to be getting along better.

    I can’t tell if I’m doing the right thing and displaying leadership. Or if I’m going to get bitten by this. (I do think most of the people involved think I am valuable to the org and want me to stay but I’m cautious.)

  178. Epsilon Delta*

    After the letter earlier this week about the west-coast employee taking morning calls with a screaming kid in the background, I couldn’t help but be amused that my east-coast coworkers scheduled a 9:30 AM (ET) call with our west-coast client, with no notice. Then sat in the meeting wringing their hands and wondering why the client had not joined.

    I also have some extra respect for the clients in Hawaii who said “no we are not meeting you at that hour, we will meet 9 AM our time.” (These particular coworkers have a tendency to assume everyone runs on east-coast time)

    What are some weird meeting times you’ve had to accommodate other time zones? For me the worst one is the 6 AM calls with our software developers in India. We did those for like three months straight and it killed me, I am not programmed to be alert and semi-cheerful at that hour.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I have not had to do this, my boss has had to stay late to accomodate clients in Asia. If they would call him right away in Asia, it would actually be right before 5pm in San Francisco, but I think they must call later, because he’s mentioned to me having to wait until 9 or 10 pm for a call from them.

    2. Ambpersand*

      Personally I’ve been on a call as early as 5:30 AM with a few groups in Asia. Just last week my boss took a very big, very important conference call at 3 AM because the group in the UK needed to do it first thing in the morning their time. I’ve also seen calls and meetings as late as 11 PM with other countries. It’s not regular, but it does happen enough around here.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I had to accommodate participants who were based in New York for a call in Europe recently and almost had to reschedule another meeting to the other end of the day because the participants were based on the West Coast.

        Thankfully it wasn’t bad as the story I heard of an assistant whose boss wanted to hold a call with the division heads in Europe, America and Australia. In the end, she just arranged 3 separate calls!

    3. Annie Moose*

      Twelve-hour-difference calls with China. Luckily (for me!) we got to have them in the morning, 7 or 8 AM, while our Chinese counterparts had to be up in the evening. (this made sense for the project because the majority of the project team was in the US, including almost all of the developers) Also loooots of ten-hour-difference calls with India.

      1. Annie Moose*

        I should add, I now work as a contractor for my state’s government, which means no more timezone differences for me!!!

    4. Close Bracket*

      We alternated 6 AM and 8 PM calls without our colleagues in Taiwan. Both times sucked.

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        I keep trying to decide if 6 AM or 8 PM would suck worse. 8 PM is way more disruptive to my life and I would just like to unwind and not think about work, but on the other hand I am really not a morning person and it is way harder to focus on anything at that time.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s kind of a flip of this… I had a co-worker who moved out to California for 3 months. We were on the east coast. We had a mandatory daily meeting for our group and I asked her what time would be best. She said 10am Eastern. I said, SEVERAL TIMES, “Are you sure? That’s pretty early for you,” and she insisted it was fine. She used to regularly skip that meeting and I had to get our boss involved.

      A co-worker here recently scheduled a presentation for 7am. Client’s request. I’m a morning person, but even I would not feel right about that one.

    6. Chaordic One*

      When I worked in California, I often had to fill-in for a part-time employee who only worked in the afternoon. I ended up having to take all of her calls, especially the ones from England where it was 4:00 pm (or so) when it was 8:00 am in California. It really bugged me at the time, but I guess it was about the best that could be done.

    7. Ann O.*

      I did 9 p.m. calls with contractors in the Philippines, but I did it from my house. So it was fine. My daughter sometimes interrupted or popped on the webcam–everyone either thought she was charming (they were parents, too) or faked it well. Also, they knew that part of the deal with the 9 p.m. timing was that I’d be home with potential interruptions. The alternative was very early morning calls for them (6 a.m. or worse), so I think it was a good trade off.

  179. Anonymous Ampersand*

    My UK peeps! Ramona Flowers, Caledonia, I have forgotten everyone else :)

    Have your employers had to publish gender pay gap info? (Link in reply.) I checked my work recently and was astounded to discover we don’t have a gender pay gap.

    But my previous employers not so much.

    Fascinated by the whole thing.

    3. Caledonia*

      Yes, where IS Ramona? I haven’t seen her around.

      Alas, my work place is not on the list, in fact no Scottish (workplace) is.

      Glad your org has no pay gap.

    4. Confused Publisher*

      I’m one of the UK people. My new employer is on the list, and doesn’t have a gender gap. Equal pay isn’t the same thing, though, as HR reminded us only this week, and that is a ways away yet.
      My previous employer is too small to be on this list, but I imagine the problems were severely egregious.

  181. Bike Shorts*

    I would love some advice regarding a fair time-off system. I work in food service/production so we’re working 7 days/week and the earliest shifts begin at 3am and the latest shifts end at 7pm (a 16 hour spread). Some folks have set schedules but most full-timers don’t – we’re required to have open availability. We don’t have any paid time off. The current system for getting time off is that each employee is allotted 20 days off per year. I don’t think this system is particularly fair. The employees who work a set schedule are scheduled for 40 hours and have to keep 40 hours of time available per week. Those of us without a set schedule work 40 hours but need to be available 112 hours per week.

    I want to propose a new system (I’m in the position to do so), but I don’t know how to take all of the important factors into account. Has anyone worked somewhere where you’ve liked the policy? How should we account for the value of weekends vs weekdays? Does this system make sense with just a much higher number (20 days is fewer than 1 weekend off per month!). Should different rules apply to people with a set schedule vs open availability?

    1. Bike Shorts*

      And to clarify – we get 2 days off per week but we don’t know which days those will be. The “days off” are more like days that you’re guaranteed not to be scheduled (but there was actually a chance you wouldn’t be scheduled for that day anyway). So that potentially would need to be factored in as well – asking for a single day off is much less disruptive than asking for 7 days off.

    2. Nan*

      Honestly, I think you need more employees and some PTO. Can you do a set rotating schedule?
      This month Bob has Mon/Tues off
      Sue has Weds/Thurs off
      Buffy has Fri/Sat
      Toto has Sun/Mon
      Next month, bump everyone back a day.
      Bob has Tues/Weds and so on.

      Except in case of an emergency, you need 2 or 4 weeks lead time to reshuffle to accommodate time off. By requiring 40 hours at work and 40 hours of availability, you are not allowing anyone to have a personal life at all. They can’t go anywhere more than like an hour from home if they have to scoot into work.

      I almost wonder if you’d be required to pay them for standby or on call time.

    3. LQ*

      I would look at professions that have similar schedules and issues but who have unions and see how some of those negotiated that as a good standard maybe? Nursing scheduling would be where I’d start.

    4. LCL*

      This is going to be tough because management is going to have to give up some of their ability to call in people on short or no notice. Sounds like some of you have a set schedule that never changes-we call those bid schedules here. Some of you, and you specifically I think, are working without a bid and agree to be called in whenever needed. These mixed bid and call in schedules are really hard to handle. One way in which your schedule is really screwed up is that there is no distinction between regular days off and days off requests. Who has time for all that micromanaging? One selling point to management of formalizing everyone’s schedule is they will spend much less time managing the schedule. Right now management has far too much power, if they won’t even guarantee everybody one weekend off per month.

      We are a 24/7 shiftwork group. We are all full time employoees. We eventually went to a variation of a 2-2-3 schedule, which if set up correctly has all bids identical and everybody gets every other weekend off. But we have no ability to downsize staffing in slow times, and if we get hammered and need extras we call people in on overtime.

  182. NP12345*

    I’m struggling with a hiring decision. I am the Director of Sales and have an sales position on my team that has been open for over 6 months. The last person in the role was insubordinate and lazy and I was relieved to see the back of him. We’ve had trouble finding the right candidate and I finally thought I had found the perfect person, Joe. He seemed smart, knew what he was talking about, had good connections in the industry. My boss interviewed him and liked him as well. We’re lining everything up for an offer. I call Joe’s first reference, a former colleague in another (non-sales) dept that he worked with about 18 months ago, and the reference is good, maybe a B+. Then I call his previous boss (PB) from the same job 18 months ago. PB gave him an awful reference. Said he was unreliable and his work was filled with errors, he required a very high level of supervision and that drama followed him wherever he went. Basically described a lot of the problems that I had with the last person in the role. PB said he would never hire Joe again. I was shocked that Joe would put PB down as a reference. Either he didn’t understand that he wasn’t good at his last job and PB didn’t like him, or he isn’t a good judge of people–which is a key ability needed in this role.
    My boss knows someone who worked with both PB and Joe, let’s call her Angela. Angela had a very senior role in the org–higher than both PB and Joe. Angela said she didn’t know Joe very well but had a good impression of him, and that PB is an a**hole and doesn’t have anything nice to say about anyone.
    I called Joe’s 3rd reference today, a Big Wig (BW) in the industry. BW gave him a very positive reference but we only spoke briefly, as he was on his way to another appointment.
    What would you do in this situation? Would you ask for additional references? I’m still pretty nervous because I’ve had a lot of problems with the people in this role not completing their duties and then accusing me of “micromanaging” them when I’m just asking them to do their job! (Yes, I’m a woman and there are gender dynamics at play). Also, my office can be a pretty toxic/gossipy environment and I definitely don’t want to hire anyone that will contribute to that dynamic. TIA for your advice!

    1. Nan*

      I would ask for one more reference. Angela ranks higher than PB and presumably BW is higher than both of them. Because Angela doesn’t seem to trust PB, I’m not sure I would, as your other references are good.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I would probably see if you could get one or two more references. It’s not unusual (as you’ve already done it sounds like) to try to talk to other people that are not listed as references. Could you find another colleague to talk to? Is there a job before the 18 months job to try to find someone to talk to? You might feel better and feel you’ve been thorough…

    3. Jady*

      If Angela feels really strongly about PB, I’d say ask for a couple more references, or try to talk to other people who worked around Joe. Could Angela list some people she knows worked closer to Joe? If those go well, ask Joe why PB would say these things and see what his response is.

  183. narwhale of a tale*

    How do I develop/cultivate a good relationship with my new coworkers? Most of my job entails writing, so I tend to spend a lot of my time with my door closed and listening to classical music as that’s how I work best. However, I feel like I’m being unfriendly and realized today that I haven’t made much of an effort to get to know the people around me as I’m not working directly with them.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I know some people really don’t like the after work drinks or dinners or lunches, but if those are an option — occassionally going on those might help.

      I think if you are just friendly (but not over-the-top) and occassionlly make small-talk (remembering names or interests or details about family) when you see your co-workers (like you see them in the hall or by the water cooler or in the break room) that can go a long way.

  184. PersistentCat*

    Have you ever just come to the realization that you must be the problem at a workplace? A coworker who I previously reported to and that trained me for their job has been snapping at me for 6 months in ways that they never do to anyone else. They snapped at me again Tuesday, over something I didn’t do that was small and petty, and it was like, light on. They don’t act this way with anyone else. Everyone else is included in meetings. No one else is (currently) being harassed by the rude VP. My (new) director hired someone for my job while I was on my honeymoon, and, even though that person keeps giving me my old job back to do, he still isn’t giving me credit for it. No one is including me on important news or inviting me out. It’s me, I’m the problem. I don’t understand the what, why, or how yet (or really the when, as it was so gradual), but yea, that was a heartbreaking realization.

    So now what? Just start job searching? Or just bow down and do the filing the director thinks I have the “skill set” for (which is a significant demotion in terms of responsibility and duties, and also something I hate, and why is that worth my salary?)? How do address something like this on your resume? How do you recover when you are in a toxic environment, but that you’re the problem child for maybe calling it out and advocating for change?

    1. Where's my coffee?*

      Give a little thought as to *how* you’re advocating for change. Are you proposing realistic solutions when you point out problems? If not, it can come across as being negative, even when you’re totally correct.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Some places just become a bad fit for you, and the only solution is to leave – I’ve also seen this happen to employees when their reputations were just ruined, and they lost the respect of their managers. There was no coming back, they needed to get out ASAP. Once in new positions, they were totally fine! Beloved employees, hard workers, etc! We become the way we are treated, I think. Working in a place where you’re treated without respect makes you worse and worse.

        On the other hand, if this has happened to you in more than one job, that might be a good reason to go to therapy and figure out if there’s something you’re doing that might be changeable.

    2. Ambivalent*

      Is there anybody at all, whom you trust, that you can ask for advice from? It sounds like everybody else knows what’s going on. I do think you might have to job search, but also think you should really try to find out what the problem is, so that you can start afresh at a new place. Try to avoid being defensive and ask for honest feedback. It sounds like either people think you are incompetent, or they don’t like your attitude. The fix would be very different for those scenarios, so it would really help you to understand. And your last sentence “you’re the problem child for maybe calling it out and advocating for change” sounds like maybe it’s the problem. Perhaps you didn’t have the political capital to do that, or maybe you didn’t do it diplomatically. Good luck.

    3. WellRed*

      Get out. They hired someone for your job. They’ve given you lesser skilled work. They leave you out of things. They don’t want you there. They want you to give up and leave. It doesn’t mean you are a problem but if it keeps happening, that’s something you should explore. But, get out.

  185. Shellesbelles*

    Work forgot my birthday again this year – after going on and on last year (after they forgot) about putting it in the calendar and making sure to do something nice. The worst part is that my boss’s birthday is two days before mine. We went out for a fancy lunch for him on his birthday, but apparently a card and some cake is too much to hope for for someone like me. My other boss gave me the cookie from her lunch…because that totally makes up for it.

    I suppose it didn’t really help that the nicest messages I received were all from people 2500 miles away. My boyfriend just dropped a perfunctory gift on my lap that morning with no wrapping and no card. We didn’t even do anything nice the night of. I know it seems silly to care about your birthday so much, especially as an adult, but the whole experience left me feeling really lonely.

    1. amanda_cake*

      I love my birthday so I understand! I got a little teary this year when my coworkers surprised me with cupcakes.

      I think you should treat yourself. It sucks that they didn’t remember or pay any attention to the date. I wish I had some real advice for you. :-(

    2. Havarti*

      Happy belated birthday! Everyone treats birthdays different as we age. I’m in the “I don’t really care about my birthday” group. My coworker and I take each other out to lunch but that’s as far as it goes at work which for me is fine. However, Captain Awkward answered an “everyone forgot my birthday when I work so hard to remember theirs” question a while back and her response was basically “Do you want to do something for your birthday? Then plan it! Your friends can join you or not. But don’t expect them to read your mind.”

      Taking that advice, did you tell your coworkers your birthday was approaching? Do they normally do something for the non-boss people? If yes, speak up! Politely. But speak up! People are always wrapped up in their lives so I’m not surprised they forgot. It’s probably not on purpose especially if they’re part of the “I don’t really care” group like me.

      As for your boyfriend, well that stinks. He’s not big on celebrating birthdays? You should make reservations next time or buy tickets to a movie or play and go out. With or without him. Celebrate you because you are awesome and you deserve to treat yourself to some yummy food or fun experience.

    3. Michelle*

      Next year, take the day off and go do something nice for yourself! It sucks when everyone else gets something or gets taken to lunch and then you get nothing, so start treating yourself. I always take my birthday off (if it’s on a Thursday, I take Thursday and Friday!) and just do whatever I want. Last year, I went to see a movie, got a massage and bought myself a yummy treat and did not share! And your boyfriend, all I can say is do the same thing for his birthday that he did for yours and if he makes a fuss just explain that you are going to put the same effort into his birthday that he does for yours.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yes yes yes. If you want to have special birthdays as an adult – no judgement! I do too! – you have to get into the mode of *giving them to yourself* rather than waiting to get them from others. I usually take a trip for my birthday, and that lets boyfriends/friends/family/coworkers off the hook.

    4. Temperance*

      It’s not stupid at all. I think you should do something nice for yourself. Is there anything you want to do/would like to do?

    5. Bad Candidate*

      Happy Belated Birthday

      And it’s not just you. My work forgot my birthday too this year. We don’t do much, but everyone gets a card signed by everyone in the office. And they just forgot to pass one around for me. Worse, less than a week later a Christmas card for someone who doesn’t even work here any more was sent around to be signed. And then in February when someone else’s birthday was forgotten, a “Happy Belated” card was sent around to make up for it. I didn’t even get so much as an apology let alone a belated card.

      Anyway, I don’t think you’re wrong to feel bummed, left out, and maybe even a bit bitter about the whole thing, because that’s how I felt.

  186. Mary Wollstonecraft*

    I have a question about how to corral email responses and such from senior coworkers, especially when my manager is a major culprit.

    I’m in an entry-level, paralegal-type position and manage the schedules/do other admin tasks for four attorneys. One attorney is the director/my direct manager, who also manages the other three attorneys. There are lots of things that require input from all of them (dates they’re available for a monthly calendar I create, compiling a list of things they’ve worked on for other field offices to read, etc.) Two attorneys are great about doing everything on time. One attorney, and my managing attorney, never are. I send multiple emails, ask in person, and mention it over the phone, and it’s like pulling teeth multiple times a week for all of these projects. I want to say something about it to my managing attorney, like, “Even when I follow up a few times, I often don’t hear from Edmund and it makes it hard for me to make this calendar/send out these updates/etc.” But I don’t see a way to do that without also implicating her in also never responding to this type of thing.

    Basically, how do I approach her about getting my coworker/superior to change when it’s behavior she also engages in? Is there a way I can also ask her to be better at doing this stuff, or ask if it’s something I should be prioritizing at all? E.g., “I know you often don’t have time to give me your updates for the newsletter. Is this something I can send out even if I don’t get your input?”

    1. fposte*

      In my office, the teeth-pulling would be part of the job. It’s what I’m expected to do for some people and what my staff sometimes have to do for me. However, I think you could ask her if you can go ahead without her updates, as you suggest, or ask if there’s a way she thinks would be most useful to ask for them. But I wouldn’t invest a lot of energy in making a change; I’d just consider reminders to be SOP.

      1. Mary Wollstonecraft*

        Oh gosh, you’re such a ubiquitous but also thoughtful commenter, I feel honored you replied to me :-) Thanks for the advice!

        1. fposte*

          You’re welcome. I relate strongly to teeth-pulling! (Though I prefer to think of it as cat-herding–much more playful.)

    2. Jady*

      “I have a difficult time getting updates from you, Edmund, and a few others for this [thing]. I know things can be insane around here though. Is there a better way to reach out to people for these details, or can I send this out without getting some responses?”

  187. Jady*

    I’ve been asking for a significant raise for 3 years and been denied each time. I just got out of my review this morning and I had a perfect score on the ratings, and the manager said it was one of the highest ratings he’d ever given out. There was zero negative feedback.

    I want a 10k raise, and I know I could get that if I went to another company. I have friends who do the same job I do, same title and everything, and I know their salaries.

    The way this job does compensation/reviews is unusual, but the basic story is raise negotiations are doable in a few weeks.

    What’s the best way to say “I’m fed up, give me a 10k raise or I start job hunting today”?

    I don’t want to quit/be fired until I have another job lined up, but if I don’t get this I will be leaving asap, but I want the “or else” part communicated clearly.

    1. Ainomiaka*

      Apply at the other places. You don’t have to accept anything else and probably should not at this point if you want to stay at your company. But “I have x offer” is a lot more compelling than “I’ll start looking.” Get your ducks in a row to back up the “or else” before you have the conversation.

      The other option is say that market rate is $10k above what you make now and you want to be paid market rate. Leave threats of leaving out, but do it if they don’t pay what you need.

      1. Jady*

        I’ve worried that kind of strategy would result in them saying OK until they find a replacement for me and then dropping me shortly after. I’m not sure I’d want to accept a counter-offer.

        But that would be the next step after saying the “or else” imo.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          If the market rate is $10K more than you are getting, how likely are they going to be trying to hire your replacement?

    2. LQ*

      I kind of feel like “or else” is always implied with a raise request. 3 years in a row means it might just not be possible at your place (for you or at all). I feel like you’ve laid your cards out and so have they. They shouldn’t be surprised. I think you just start job hunting today.

      1. Jady*

        I feel like in the past I haven’t had as much ammunition to really push hard for it. This year, I couldn’t possibly get anymore ammunition than I have now. I’ve gathered from my review that I went from “good” to “rockstar”, so at the end of this I’ll know one way or the other.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeah I don’t understand – have you said this directly? I would say this nicely but pretty directly to your boss at this point. You have nothing to lose, as you’re resolved on leaving anyway if this doesn’t work out. “I believe the market rate for this position is X. I’ve received a great rating three years in a row and this year my rating was perfect, so I’m requesting a raise of Y thousand dollars.” The ‘or else’ doesn’t need to be stated, it’s implied. Then yes, proceed with your job search, and if you get that offer you’re looking for – take it. Don’t stay in a place that’s happy to underpay you, even if they suddenly come up with the money right at the end. Add up what you’ve missed out on over three years of being underpaid!!

          1. Lil Fidget*

            Ooh also I should have said – do this now, before the process goes any further, because otherwise you will get what happened to me – my boss gave me a great review and talked me up, and was then super pleased with himself to deliver … a raise that was not at all what I had been expecting. I knew others were paid way more, but he thought I was going to be over the moon with the 2.5% raise he’d gotten for me. So you want to be the first to speak, and create the expectation of the kind of number you’re expecting. I’ve even been told to ask for 5K more than what you really want, to let them save face and push back if they need to. Seems silly to me but I’ve seen it work.

          2. Jady*

            The last few years I’ve said I wanted a raise directly, but when denied I justified it to myself by thinking there’s more I could do, these were the areas I can focus on to improve, etc. because the reviews were in the ‘good not great’ range.

            The reason I stayed is because I have liked this job, and that has its own value. I’ve worked at a place where I was miserable, and yeah I would take a less salary to avoid that. I left my previous job after 1 year, so I wanted to stick around here for awhile to avoid the job-hopping appearance.

            Since I’ve asked the last few years for a raise, but not left or pushed on it, I’m concerned they’ll disregard this request in the same manner.

            Things have been going downhill here and I’m at the point where the job isn’t worth the low salary anymore.

    3. Swimmergurl*

      Zero negative feedback isn’t necessarily a good thing. If you don’t get any feedback about how to improve, you don’t get a clear sense of your strengths and weaknesses, and don’t get any sense of what you need to do to earn a promotion or even just grow as a professional.

      A threat isn’t going to magically increase their revenue or make them budget more money for salaries. A $10K raise isn’t going to happen in most organizations, unless you’re promoted to a higher position and/or take on more responsibility.

      I would research the average salary for your position and try to get a sense of what’s fair compensation in the marketplace, rather than relying on anecdotes from others.

      I also would urge you to be more skeptical of such anecdotes, since people might be rounding up to impress you. Also beyond salary, there are other things that you have to weigh: Do they have a higher health insurance premium? Do they work more hours or have less flexibility? Are they required to wear a suit to work every day? Would you have to commute farther to have the same position?

      1. Jady*

        I have taken on a lot more responsibility over the last years, that was one of the reasons for the glowing reviews.

        A promotion would be a lot more difficult to get here, and would involve changing the work I do pretty significantly, adding on more downsides to the job like significant travel. Unless they created a brand new position, I wouldn’t accept a promotion.

        I’ve done research myself that has supported the antidotes. I work in software development and there is huge demand and perks in this field right now.

        One of those people is actually my husband, so I have a crystal clear picture of what at least one other company offers. Most of them are actually better than my company in terms of insurance, casual environments, work hours and flexibility. Odds are leaving would add 5-15 minutes on my commute.

        That probably raises the question of ‘well why haven’t you already left?!’. I left my last job after 1 year because I was miserable, so I wanted a longer stay at my next one and I learned liking your job has a pretty big value in itself. I actually like this job and have made a couple good friends here.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        FWIW, I have seen 10K raises. It all depends on the org and how valuable you are to them.

    4. Close Bracket*

      Earlier this week, there was a question from someone whose boss was being passive aggressive about her flex time, and Alison recommended the wording, “We’ll have to think about whether it still makes sense for me to work here.” Check out that answer and see whether it’s someone you can use. There’s also the relationship wording for when you have tried and tried to get someone to change of “I’m reevaluating the relationship.” Maybe something like, “I haven’t had any raises in the last three years. I’ve performed x and y additional duties. Continuing without a raise will cause me to reevaluate whether it makes sense for me to work here.”

      10k is a lot. You will really need hard data on the going rate and the value your extra work brought to the company to get that.

      1. Jady*

        O thanks! I like that “reevaluate”.

        I believe I have the data and job results that support a 10k increase.

    5. Artemesia*

      You think you can do better, but you don’t know till you try. Do you want to continue at a place that essentially has to be threatened to reward you appropriately? I would start your job search now; the confidence that having interviews lined up will shine through in your negotiations. But NEVER threaten to leave or look for another job. Several bad things can come from that: 1. you can end up being let go 2. you can fail to find a better job and feel like a fool 3. you immediately look less reliable and more expendable (we often don’t know when major cuts or reorganizations are coming — I find out my job would disappear when my husband held up a front page headline for me while I was in the shower getting ready for work. I had been in meetings about improving the organization’s cash flow literally the day before while the PTB had been in negotiations for a merger that would eliminate my department and several others.

      Look for another position and seriously consider taking it if you get it even if they counter offer. There are organizations where accepting a counter offer works fine e.g. academia is one, but in most businesses you become a marked disloyal employee once those negotiations are over and of course all the problems that led to your looking elsewhere are still in place.

      Sometimes just the glow of confidence you have when you take action comes through in salary negotiations and you may get what you want before you have other offers — but if not or if those offers are good, off you go.

  188. Pet sitter*

    This week at work:

    – Literally two visits this entire week. My clients who were out of town in February are all staying home this week. Nobody is even traveling for work.
    – Old dog friend let me give him hugs.
    – Due to the first point, I am spending the day working on some writing/art, watching Jessica Jones, and eating ice cream.

  189. Saturn*

    I need advice related to kitchen etiquette. I am the lucky person whose office is across from the kitchen. Our kitchen is small and has a fridge, coffee maker, microwave, toaster, and sink. A new employee who is young (one or two years out of college with possibly a year of work experience) seems to be “cooking” meals from our kitchen. He uses the toaster tray and lays out vegetables, fried rice, etc and tops it with seasoned raw meats and turns on the toaster oven. He’ll then leave for 20 – 30 minutes while the items cook and he’ll return to eat them. The smell is… horrible. Earlier this week, he forgot his food and everything burned. I stopped by by his desk to let him know and he admitted he forgot. Any advice on how to handle this? Should I continue to close my door to reduce the smell or is there a polite way to say something?

    1. Havarti*

      Is it normal to hog the toaster oven for 20-30 minutes? If not, it may be worth to have a friendly chat about how the appliances are meant to reheat cooked food and not actually for cooking because everyone in the department/on the floor/in the building has to use them and it’s not fair to everyone else to tie up the oven for that long. you can phrase it as a “Hey, just as a heads up since you’re new here” thing like you’re doing them a favor. Also letting stuff burn is bad. We had burnt toast set off the fire alarm on what had to be the coldest day. Not cool.

      1. Saturn*

        The toaster oven is not used a great deal, so he probably isn’t preventing someone else from using it.

    2. fposte*

      Two thoughts come to mind. Yes, as somebody with proximity, I think it’s okay to say “Can you be mindful of kitchen odors when you cook, since strong-smelling stuff travels into people’s offices?” Second, and more importantly, he’s doing this directly on the tray–stuff isn’t wrapped in foil or anything? Oh, hell, no, I don’t want raw meat being cooked in my office toaster oven. Do you have the authority on your own to state that to him as a hygiene issue?

      1. Saturn*

        He does line the tray with foil but does not wrap the food. I do not manage him, but am senior to him.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Sidenote, but it seems kind of odd to me that an office stocks a toaster oven – that does seem to be inviting people to bring food assembled and “cook” it.

      1. Murphy*

        We have one. It gets used to reheat things. (Great for pizza!)

        I think the raw meat is definitely a bit much (as is leaving the toaster oven unattended for that long). That would make me worry about sanitary issues, which is worth saying something about.

        1. Tired*

          We have one too. It is used to heat sandwiches and stuff like that. Never to cook raw meat!

    6. Artemesia*

      I worked in an office that banned cooking in the office kitchen after the admin staff made fried chicken which of course made the place smell like a KFC.

      Any chance your cube can be moved to where he is and he could be moved to the one across from the kitchen.

      If I ran your office, I’d probably just get rid of the toaster oven and leave the microwave and coffee pot and refrigerator.

  191. amanda_cake*

    I work in higher ed as an admissions counselor. I will finish a masters in library science in May. I recently got an email saying that one of the librarians at my university is leaving. I’ve been patiently waiting for them to post the job to see if there’s a chance I would be qualified for it. A friend is encouraging me to do go down to the library and chat with the director to see if it will be posted and to get some inside intel. I would feel comfortable doing this, but I don’t really know the director. I’ve met her in passing and I doubt she would know who I am. Would it be completely weird to go introduce myself and ask about the position?

    1. LQ*

      I don’t think it would be weird (but I know sometimes education is a different beast). If you had a good connection to her through someone else you could tap that as well.

      1. amanda_cake*

        Unfortunately, my department (admissions) doesn’t have a lot of chances for interaction with the library team, so I don’t think I have anyone that could connect me with her. If the job isn’t posted by Monday, I might meander over to the library and see if I can catch her in her office.

        1. Artemesia*

          You are colleagues even if you don’t interact. The fact that you work in the same organization gives you an opening to meet with her — I’d probably ask for a convenient time when dropping in if it doesn’t look like a chat them is welcome.

          Alas in Universities open positions are very often not filled.

          1. amanda_cake*

            I am optimistic they will fill this position. We don’t have a large library staff so being down a person means others really feel it. The librarian position that would be open also teaches information literacy courses so that means there would be one librarian doing all of them unless they fill this position.

            My university is tiny (650 undergrads).

    2. Little Bean*

      If you happened to see her somewhere on campus, I think it would be ok to introduce yourself and let her know you’re interested in the position but I probably wouldn’t go to her office. Then you’re interrupting her work without an appointment or meeting scheduled. Some people might not mind but you don’t know her well enough to know if she’s one of them. I would probably either think about whether there is someone at the peer level who you know well enough to go ask what they know, or send the director an email to ask if there is a job posting.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      I wouldn’t hesitate to march over there and introduce myself, and – if they seemed responsive – ask some questions, take them out to coffee, ask them directly if they think you might be a good candidate. This is how it gets done! Plus, you don’t have much to lose if the alternative is applying cold with no connections to the job.

      1. bb-great*

        It really depends on how hiring gets done in their library. At mine, we go through search committees, so trying to gin favor with the director would be seen as inappropriately circumventing the process.

    4. bb-great*

      As an academic librarian, I don’t think it would be weird to reach out, but I would keep it really brief. Tell her you’re a current university employee about to finish your MLS and you were wondering if the recently departed librarian will be replaced, and if so, does she have any idea what level they’ll be hiring and when it might be posted.

      Hiring for academic librarians really varies. My institution treats it like a faculty appointment so it takes a looooong time to get approval to fill a position, then you have to go through the whole search committee process. Whereas other institutions treat it more like regular private sector jobs. So just be prepared for that.

      1. amanda_cake*

        I am friendly with a coworker in the operations side of admissions. Her husband is the interlibrary loan librarian. After talking with her, I decided to send the director an email. She seemed confident that it would be the way to go. She said the director is very friendly and would likely be excited someone who is already employed here is interested.

        I know it might take forever, but I’m not in a huge rush to find a new position. I’ve been looking around for months now. I’m hoping my internal candidate + alumna status might help me in regard to this position. Crossing my fingers anyway.

        1. bb-great*

          Awesome!! I’m glad you found a way in that made sense. Yeah, librarian job searches can be torturous. But assuming they’re looking for an entry level candidate, they would probably be happy to hire someone who’s local. Unless you have a nearby lib school most places will have to import new librarians, and that just adds a layer of difficulty to the hiring process. Good luck!!

          1. amanda_cake*

            I live in Virginia, where there’s no ALA accredited library school (my degree is 100% online, which I am thankful). It’s a pretty small town, so you’d have to have the right person to wanna take this job and live here. Plus, knowing my institution, the pay can’t be but so great.

  192. Tuna Casserole*

    So. I was noodling around on Facebook, and I came across one of those vile anti-lgbt memes. It was a public post, and I noticed it had been shared by one of my co-workers. I am not friends with the person, Facebook or otherwise, but I wonder if I should say something, or just pretend I didn’t see it. OK, I’ll probably say nothing, but I’ll see this person differently from now on. I think many people don’t realize just how public online posts are.

    3. Tired*

      Are you sure they didn’t share it in a “Can you believe how horrible some people are” kind of way? I have some friends that do that.

    4. Eve*

      Can you go to their wall and see if it is public? What kind of comments they and/or their friends make about it could make a big difference here.

      I often share things like this because my friends go into the comments to defend against or help report until it is removed.

  193. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Man, how DO you stay sane looking for work? I take time to craft and tailor cover letters and really do what I can to understand the position I’m applying for. I know that this kind of thing can take an exceptionally long time (I’m a designer and I’ve been pretty lucky to have been hired quickly for a couple jobs) but it feels like, well, forever. I know it’s a competitive field as well.

    But then I think back to when I was transferring out of my first college and trying to find work, any work, in 2010. My only experience was in office work and the time constraints with school is what I think kept me from getting anywhere. I remember filling out long questionnaires and applications for retail only for the auto reject to land in my inbox mere seconds after submit. I’d be hard-pressed to rank what felt more soul-crushing, but I think the market in 2010 felt pretty dire for me.

    On the plus side I am safe. Still living with Mama UFO and taking care of errands, pets, housework/repairs, and cooking. I don’t know how I can ever “repay” her, but I do what I can. It makes me feel good that the cats are fed and dinner is done so we can sit down and eat when she gets home. I go out on a run after lunch.

    That said, I fumbled the vegetable peeler earlier in the week and not only peeled the side of my pinky but then went ahead and took the tip off my ring finger as well. It knocked a couple to-dos off my list simply because I can’t grab things/carry things/whatever. And hooboy, every now and then I strike a key wrong and I feel it!

    Maybe this is the blood sacrifice the universe required to get things moving.

    1. Havarti*

      Blood sacrifice. Love it! I’ve done that with the peeler. I feel like I can never repay my parents but you do what you can and it sounds like you’re doing an amazing job holding down the fort. I hope you find something soon!

    2. AudreyParker*

      I have no advice, but can sympathize – my experience is that job search is a total drag, and I’m definitely feeling demoralized at the moment. One thing that makes it tougher for me is that I not only don’t know anyone else in the same boat, but don’t even know anyone else who’s had to spend any time unemployed (!). Being able to drop in on these threads from time to time helps me in that regard – just knowing I’m not the only one struggling with this kind of situation. Fortunately, I have not (yet) physically injured myself in service to the Powers of the Job Search Universe – hope that gets better quickly! (And let us know if that really does get things moving – I think I’ve got a peeler around here somewhere…)

  194. I hate my new job*

    At the interview I already had the sense it was going to be a terrible job, but the pay rate was higher than anything I’d had before, so I decided to gamble on it. I wish I hadn’t.

    1. How should I phrase my situation to the next interviewer? Should I say I have a job right now (because it’ll look bad if I quit a job after just a few weeks), or should I say I’m unemployed?

    2. If I should try to stick it out, please help me handle the new coworker I’m supposed to rely on for help. She’s a difficult person in that she’s resistant to feedback and readily throws people under the bus. There’s also a personality mismatch because she’s confident to the point of confrontational. My boss does seem to like her though.

    1. Havarti*

      It’s ok to say that yes you’re currently employed but the job turned out to not be a good fit so you’re looking for something that better fits your skills/experience/whatever. If you’re not constantly jumping from job to job, one misstep shouldn’t wreck your chances. I don’t think you should stick it out but as for the coworker, maybe try looking at her like she’s an alien from another planet and not take her confrontational, resistant ways to heart. Be cool, calm, polite. Practice selective deafness. If she insists she’s right, politely agree and move on.

    2. Alianora*

      I would just not engage more than necessary — don’t give her feedback, don’t trust her with information that she could use against you. If you want, you could try asking her for advice.
      My coworker, who was similar, treated me best when he could think of me as an inferior who needed his help. (We were peers.) So my strategy was to only speak to him when it was either conveying necessary information or asking for work-related advice. I didn’t try to engage in chit-chat or help him, because he got defensive whenever I did.

  195. AnonyMouse*

    I never make it to the open thread in a timely fashion! Hoping I can get some advice on a few things today. As I’ve posted about on here before, I’m trying like crazy to get out of my current work environment. I started actively searching about a month ago, and luckily I got some interviews pretty quickly! Unfortunately, I don’t have an offer yet. My lease is up in two months, and I really would like to be moving by then. I’ve thought about possibly temping if I don’t find something. The problem is that most of my work experience is temp work (shortest position was 2.5 months, longest was two years). I’ve gotten mixed feedback from others, because I’m in my 20’s still a lot of people are telling me it’s not a warning sign just yet to have a lot of shorter stays. Would you guys agree with this statement?

    My other question is that a coworker keeps telling me that I should tell my boss I’m looking. I usually prefer not to say anything until I have an offer in hand. Has anyone ever had a good experience telling their supervisor that they’re looking? For context I work in Education/Human Services.

    1. Ainomiaka*

      If you’re temping for the same agency, one way I have mitigated the multiple short contracts is to list them all under the agency rather than all as separate jobs. That may be slightly different for the 2 year stint, but it’s unlikely that you will have a bunch of resume points from a 2.5 month job.

    2. Havarti*

      Telling ahead of time before you give your two weeks notice is probably not going to help you. Why does your coworker want you to say anything? I hope they don’t say anything either because it may upset your boss and then you’re stuck looking for work while your boss is annoyed or angry with you. What fun!

      As for temping, if you’re with one temp agency, I think you put that agency down on your resume and then the various assignments you did while there. You don’t list the companies by themselves especially if they were short-term assignments. You’re still young so yes, job-skipping would be more acceptable but job-skipping and temping are not the same thing.

      Hopefully you’ll land something soon!

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I’m not sure why my coworker thinks I should say something to be honest. I have made it very clear to them that I haven’t said anything (and therefore they shouldn’t). I think it might be that we work in a more “touchy-feely” industry (think along the lines of school counseling- we’re in a similar type of position). I think they for some reason think my supervisor will respond well…? I’m hesitant and could see it ending either way. I’m worried that my supervisor my have caught on (me taking more days off than usual in the span of a couple of weeks) and is going to put me on the spot and ask.

        To explain my former temp positions, I didn’t go through a temp agency. I applied for the positions directly, they were just term limited (one was a one year contract, the other was just to fill in the gap between when the last person left and a new person would start- this was the 2.5 month contract). All of my other work experience was from while I was in grad school (two year assistantship, semester long internships, etc). Not sure if that clarifies things. I refer to it as temp experience because it was all not permanent, but I also wasn’t working for a placement agency.

    3. Jady*

      Short work periods aren’t bad if the positions are designed to be short. You can note in the duration area that these were contract/temp jobs for the specified duration.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        You can see my clarification in the response above, but this is more accurate to what my previous situations would be. My current position would be the only permanent position I left quickly if I were to leave (I’m at about 8 or 9 months right now)

  196. Peaches*

    I cannot STAND when people don’t read emails…

    Me, in an email to our sales reps on Wednesday: “Hi all, just an FYI that I’ll be out of the office next Tuesday, 3/13 through Thursday, 3/15 for training.”
    Me, in an email to our sales reps this morning: “Hi all, just another reminder that I’ll be out of the office next Tuesday, 3/13 through Thursday, 3/15 for training.”
    Sales rep 1: “Hey, are you free next Tuesday to meet with this customer?”
    Sales rep 2: “Hey, when are you out again next week? I might need you on Wednesday.”
    Sales rep 3: “What days exactly are you out next week?”

    *face palm*

    1. Murphy*

      I feel your pain. I get stuff like that all the time. I sent out an email that ended with “We expect to have our decision by X date.” And I got several people replying to that email with “So I was wondering, when do you expect to have the decision?” UGH.

    2. Ali G*

      UGH. This is a pet peeve of mine. I can’t tell you how many times I have emailed a group of people to try to set a meeting or call. Sometimes it’s easier to list the times I CAN’T make it. So I will say “I can do any time Monday except from 9-11 am;” and invariable someone will reply “I can do 9 am Monday.”
      Seriously???

    3. Ktelzbeth*

      Agreed about the annoyance! I responded to an email asking about my availability Sept 4-6 (dates approximated to keep me from having to look for my calendar) by saying that I had nothing scheduled yet during that time. The other person replied to my email to ask if I’d had a chance to look at my calendar yet. Yes, actually, I did look at my calendar and just sent you what it told me.

      Then later this week, knowing a meeting would have to be slightly earlier than usual, I replied all to the group planning the meeting, “How soon can John and Jane arrive that morning?” Next thing I knew, someone was calling to ask if it was okay if we started a few minutes early. Sure, I hadn’t said that explicitly, but it was implied by asking how early others could start.

  197. anon for this*

    My organization just had a competition for an open position to replace someone who had decided to stay home with her baby. We had 2 applications from individuals who work in my division already. ‘Mary’ had worked here for almost 6 years and ‘John’ has worked here for almost 2 years. Mary has observed the job having been on the same team the entire time she has worked here. But she has never done the job here or anywhere else and has no educational background in the job. John has a degree in the relevant discipline and has done the job at a past job he had. After interviews the decision was made to go with John.

    Mary is upset. She has been telling everyone John (Scottish man) was chosen over her (Jamaican woman) for discriminatory things. It was explained to get that John had an educational background and past experience and Mary was offered a chance to be mentored by a manager who has experience with that job and to be allowed to shadow John (who agreed to train her so she could gain some knowledge of the job). But Mary declined both of these opportunities and has been telling people working here and the clients that a white man with less time here was picked not her.

    I’m a white man also and I don’t presume to understand the struggles of a black woman. I also know what it is like to lose out on a job you wanted (I lost out in an internal competition in the last fall). I want to be sensitive with Mary but at the same time this can’t continue. It was explained to her why John was picked. She turned off opportunities offered to her. I’m at a loss here. Any tips or help would be appreciated.

    (I’m not American like I’m guessing most of the readers are and English is my second language so I am sorry for any errors here)

    1. AcademicSchacademic*

      This is a difficult situation. I am curious is Mary and John were doing the same job prior to this hiring?
      If so, six years of employment should count for something unless there is some problem with her work or attitude. If everyone required people who had a degree + experience for a position, no one would ever get promoted. Really delve deep into why your organization hired John over Mary. If you really feel he was the best candidate, then you should be able to sleep at night but do realize that people of color AND women are passed over every day for minute technicalities that serve to keep them in lower paid positions and titles. Women and minorities have value and you’ll lose talent if your firm has a habit of overlooking them for promotions. It IS noticed and talked about when it happens.

      You can be all kinds of diverse in a company but if you aren’t inclusive, you are missing the point.

      1. Colette*

        Should six years of unrelated employment count for more than relevant education and experience?

        It sounds like they are willing to help Mary get the skills so that she can get promoted, but that she’s not interested. It also sounds like John has relevant skills Mary doesn’t have.

      2. anon for this*

        I do appreciate your replying. And I do see what you are saying.

        Mary and John were not doing the same job before the competition for this job. To use an analogy I have seen on here: it would be like if Mary’s job was shipping out teapots to clients who bought them and John’s job was assembling coffee pots that our clients ordered.

        Mary has seen coffee pots since they are shipped out of the same department. But she has never touched, assembled, shipped, sold or repaired them. She didn’t study coffee pots at school and has never led a coffee pot department. John not only studied coffee pots at school but has sold them, built individual pieces, assembled entire coffee pots, done trouble-shooting and repairing them and led a coffee pot department in the past.

        It only made sense to have John get the job. Having someone who has never even touched a coffee pot would have been a disaster. If the job had been in the teapot department Mary would have had a big advantage and John would not have been considered because he has no experience with teapots.

        I was also the only white person on the hiring committee who we assembled for this job competition. There were also more women them men on it. We aren’t American so the racial differences and contexts are not the same as in America but the organization is diverse.

        1. AcademicSchacademic*

          With that context, it sounds like you are doing what you can. You have offered her chances to learn and grow and she doesn’t want it. You hired the best person qualified for the job. It now may need to be passed on to HR, especially if she is disrupting work or killing morale. You can be disappointed about not getting a job but if the process was fair and she still has a problem, not much else you can do that is appropriate.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      So you had 2 people apply (for simplicity):

      Person 1. Had no educational background in the job, no experience in the job, but had worked in the same location as someone with the job.
      Person 2. Had education background in the job. Had done the job before.

      Hands down, you’re going with Person 2. Doesn’t matter gender or the color of their skin.
      Mary is now cutting of her nose to spite her face (since you don’t speak English as a first language, is an idiom that means Mary is being stubborn and silly.)

    3. Thlayli*

      Mary is a jerk. John has the education and experience but she wants the job even though she has zero education or experience in it.

      It’s fine to feel sorry for her but like you said she has turned down the offers of help so I think it’s ok to limit your sympathy here. You do not need to accept her telling lies to clients and coworkers, you have done nothing wrong by giving the position to the person with the education and experience to do it.

      Being from a minority does not give her license to be a jerk. It’s ok to tell her that she has to stop making these statements. Tell her that if she wants to file a complaint she should approach the proper authorities and do so, but that she is not allowed to tell clients and coworkers this. You should probably get some legal advice about how to word that though.

      I would even say call her bluff – encourage her to make a complaint. She probably won’t because she probably knows this is bs.

  198. AudreyParker*

    (I’ve probably posted this before since it’s an ongoing issue, and probably will again since I can’t seem to get to the Open Thread early in the day, but giving it a shot…) I’m having a ridiculously difficult time with the job search. I’m not even talking resume & cover letter, which are also incredibly difficult for me, but just figuring out what to apply for. It’s sending me into a daily panic at this point, as I’ve been unemployed for quite a while now after a layoff, and I know it’s mostly down to me.

    I’ve basically never established a proper career path, and my previous jobs have really only positioned me to be a jack of all trades. Turns out this is not a job title! I’ve been told by others that I’m too advanced to be looking for entry-level positions, but I think my perception must be skewed by the positions I’ve held, because many jobs that only ask for 2-3 years of experience look like what I think would be able to do based on what I’ve been doing most recently. I have *many* more years than that of “in the working world” experience, but since none of it is hyper-concentrated, the positions that I’m theoretically supposed to apply for seem insanely out of reach. I was also significantly underpaid at my last job, so I think my salary perceptions are also skewed. I have no idea how to get out of this headspace. Coaches I’ve tried to work with have told me I should be reaching wayyyyy higher, that I’m a hugely desirable employee, but no one’s told me the secret of what these positions are or how I could be desirable when I have no particular area of expertise and only even tangentially know some of the software apps or tasks that get mentioned, since I’ve often worked with proprietary tech and taken on partial responsibilities that weren’t technically part of my job.

    I would apply to these lower level admin jobs just because I need income, but have a feeling employers would rule me out as being either too expensive or overqualified. Plus I don’t want my salary to keep going backwards — call me crazy! Anyone have any suggestions on how to identify positions to apply for when you aren’t on a specific career track? And how to tell what is a realistic step up vs being delusional about what you’re qualified to do? It’s making me crazy that people seem to think it’s super obvious, so I’m unable to actually extract any advice…

    1. Junior Dev*

      Maybe try applying to a variety and see what happens? You could say you’re going to apply to one junior job and one senior job each week (unemployment in my state makes you apply to two jobs a week so this is how I tend to organize a job search).

      1. AudreyParker*

        Definitely a good idea on the face of it, I’m just having trouble even finding things that I could apply for that don’t seem obviously off (to me, at least). And it takes me hours/days to just put together application materials for a job, so I’ve been hesitant to spend that time on applying for things that seem highly unlikely vs looking for something more suitable. i.e. I’m told I should be looking for at least manager level jobs, but they all seem like unrealistic stretches to me, full of things I’ve never done – should I really spend a day or 2 figuring out how to shoehorn myself into something that I can barely make an argument for? I don’t know, maybe that is what people do and I’m just out of that loop…

    2. Havarti*

      Are you really going into a panic over this? I would recommend a therapist instead of a coach. You need to talk some of this out with someone to, as you said, get out of this headspace. Maybe try making a list of the things you liked to do in your previous jobs and see if there’s a common thread there. Have you tried going to a temp agency?

      1. AudreyParker*

        Well the panic is that if I don’t come up with a job to apply for, no one is going to show up at my doorstep offering me a job. I’ve been working with career coaches who were former hiring managers, so it’s helped to get some insight from them, but they haven’t offered much on specifics. I’ve been considering looking at temp agencies, but the jobs I see them post either require very specific skills I can’t even pretend to have, or are like entry-level receptionist gigs. I have previously gotten jobs via temp agencies, though, they just positioned me at the very bottom of the pay ladder and kind of led to where I am today, so have been trying not to go that route yet again. Of course, low pay is better than no pay, so it’s on the list…

    3. Colette*

      Are you networking? I also have an unusual job history, and I find networking really helpful in two ways. First of all, talking to people who know me and my work boosts my confidence when I’m getting discouraged, but also I’ve gotten my last 2 jobs because I casually mentioned to someone that I was job hunting.

      1. AudreyParker*

        My network is pretty insular, and jobs in those industries require pretty specific experience that I don’t have (and they were industries I kind of fell into, not that I have an interest in/talent for). They know me in very low level roles, and because I don’t have a specific job title I’m targeting, nor do I know what people would pay me to do, I’ve found it hard to come up with a compelling answer to “what are you looking for?” I feel like everyone else knows people who are vaguely pro-active in those situations; people I know are just like “oh, that’s too bad, I’m sure you’ll find something.” The people who know me for more advanced work are aware that I’m looking, but I think the scattered nature of my work makes it tough to position me for anything. And while they’ll also say I could do some nebulous higher-level job, they don’t seem able to articulate what that might be. I definitely make sure to keep letting people know I’m still in the market for… something, though! Currently trying to identify roles that I can at least attempt some kind of informational interviews about, maybe that will help.

        1. Colette*

          What are you good at? My explanation of what I’m looking for is something like this:
          “As you can see, I’ve had a variety of jobs, from software development to technical support to customer service, but ultimately I am a problem solver. I love to dig into a situation, figure out what the issues are, and come up with a plan to fix them.”

          There’s no job title in there, but it does explain what I’m looking for.

          1. AudreyParker*

            I think part (a lot?) of my problem is I have no idea what I’m good at. I’ve always been in positions where there was very limited feedback on anything beyond just whether or not you were doing your job, and without any promotion track. One boss I literally told that I felt like I could rebuild our building by hand myself and would still not be able to get a new title or acknowledgement – I felt ok saying that, because I knew I wasn’t jeopardizing anything at that point, 4 years in! Another job, where I pretty much couldn’t even take lunch because the deadlines were so insane and would be on the phone en route to the office, my review said I’d get more done if I got to work earlier. So I feel like I’m good at being overly responsible for no money ;) I am similar to you in that I am a bit of a compulsive problem-solver and efficiency-maximizer, whether or not that’s requested. I’ve usually found that a problem in that I end up being… overly responsible for no money. But I’ll think about your angle here, that may help me step up my pitch game a bit – thanks! It does help to know how other people approach these things.

    4. PB*

      I relate to this so much. I have a few random degrees the liberal arts, and several years of work experience that’s not really on any particular career path. I am relocating soon for my partner’s career and I have no idea what type of jobs to even consider applying for. When looking for jobs, I mostly just try to see if I meet the minimum requirements. If I do, I consider applying, if not, no way. I feel like I have a lot of potential, and I always get positive feedback about the work I do, but that doesn’t help me figure out what the right job is for me. It’s definitely a journey and I’m reading books and articles to work on my own issues with confidence. But it would be nice if someone could just tell me, “You would be perfect for X job”.

      1. AudreyParker*

        OMG, right?! Just TELL me what you think I could do! I’m finding that I’ll read through jobs where I think I can meet the minimum requirements, then I get to the “2-3 years of experience” part, which I’m told means basic entry-level job that I’d mysteriously be over-qualified for. So frustrating. It doesn’t help to know that you sound like a valuable employee if you don’t know as *what* (pretty sure Indeed and LinkedIn do not have a “valuable employee” category).

  199. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

    I had a surprise exit interview with my health officer yesterday evening. Found out that there’s been a crap ton of complaints about my boss in terms of attitude, professionalism, and tone. He was wanting me to either confirm or deny these complaints’, so that was a less than fun conversation. Sounds like BossLady is going to have the equivalent of a PIP pretty soon.

    Apparently he’s been calling most of the people in the department to suss out everyone’s perspectives, so the head nurse came into my office and commiserated with me a bit and talk about what Health Officer said to both of us. The department’s going to have an interesting couple of months.

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

        It was weird, and I wished he had given me a bit more of a heads-up than “hey in two hours can you come meet with me to talk about your exit?”.

        1. Snark*

          Yeah, it’s super weird, and puts you in a really uncomfortable spot where you’re not sure what to say or how to CYA.

          1. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

            All I felt I could do was answer yes or no, basically, but thankfully at least he worded the questions “have you heard of (complaint details here)?” or “have any contractors stated xyz to you?” So I didn’t have to bring up anything or do anything that detailed.

    2. TeapotSuperGlue*

      I mean that is good that he’s aware but careful with exit interviews. What is said is not anonymous or secret–you know what they say…everyone sworn to secrecy tells at least two people. Anyway, I had a similar opportunity with encouragement from the VP in my exit meeting and I didn’t take it. It turned out to be an excellent decision. Somehow about a year later, my old boss became my new boss’s boss at my new teapot firm. Don’t ask me how…all the sudden they were just there and like HI, You! Remember Me?! and told my boss I taught this one everything they know about Teapots! Later my boss recalled my few references to my old boss and realized they were in.it. My teapot former company passed the buck to get rid of this manager by giving a glowing recommendation and would have known had I thrown them under the bus. They moved on after less than a year of mucking up everything. I was very insulated from their management at the new job so it was less stressful the 2nd time around but sometimes teapot industries are small ponds and bad fish get thrown back in.

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

        I was careful, no worries. Didn’t do much other than “yeah, I’ve heard that before.”

  200. Katie*

    Work social question: when, if ever, should I tell a new coworker that we previously briefly met a couple of times because I’m friendly with his ex-girlfriend? Neither of us mentioned the connection when we met – at a casual breakfast meeting with our bosses present – and I wasn’t sure if he didn’t remember or figured it wasn’t the time to bring it up.

    1. Havarti*

      Ex-girlfriend? Maybe don’t mention it at all. I mean maybe they’re still friendly to each other but why bring up the past?

  201. AcademicSchacademic*

    This is a difficult situation. I am curious is Mary and John were doing the same job prior to this hiring?
    If so, six years of employment should count for something unless there is some problem with her work or attitude. If everyone required people who had a degree + experience for a position, no one would ever get promoted. Really delve deep into why your organization hired John over Mary. If you really feel he was the best candidate, then you should be able to sleep at night but do realize that people of color AND women are passed over every day for minute technicalities that serve to keep them in lower paid positions and titles. Women and minorities have value and you’ll lose talent if your firm has a habit of overlooking them for promotions. It IS noticed and talked about when it happens.

    You can be all kinds of diverse in a company but if you aren’t inclusive, you are missing the point.

  202. Junior Dev*

    I am taking an anxiety medication (beta blocker) that causes low blood pressure as a side effect. Today I biked to work, showered in the office shower, and fell getting out of the shower. I got blood on the floor and also felt pretty silly. (I talked to building maintenance and they cleaned up the blood.)

    I’ve been chugging cans of juice and coconut water and eating salty things to get my BP up. Ugh I hate this. If I I don’t start feeling better after lunch I may take the bus hom early.

    1. Snark*

      As someone also attempting to soldier through some malaise and GI issues today, I salute you. I wanna go home so bad it hurts.

      1. Junior Dev*

        That sucks Snark. Having chronic health issues often means you don’t have a binary choice between “sick” and “not sick”–it’s more a continuum between “sick enough it would be dangerous to work” and “not sick enough to justify another missed work day.”

        1. Snark*

          And as someone whose health issues are not chronic, mad respect for dealing with it on the regular. Tough row to hoe.

    2. soupmonger*

      As someone who has been prescribed beta-blockers for the same reason, I’d talk to your GP about the fall in the shower. At one point I was on quite a high dose, and was told by GP to be careful how many I took, because I cycled, so to beware of the low blood pressure thing. Sounds as if the tablet dose you’re on might be too high for the exercise you’re doing? I’d talk to your doctor.

      1. Junior Dev*

        I’ll make an appointment with my GP, I think. I was prescribed them by my psychiatrist. My GP is also a sports medicine doctor so I think she will know more about this. Thanks for the advice.

  203. Anonanonanonanonanon*

    I’m looking for help with a script. I’m a remote worker for a national company, and I’m in CA. The vacation policy at my company only allows for up to 5 days to rollover from fyear to fyear. For employees in states that allow it, anything accrued beyond that expires. We do not have an overall cap on how much can be banked in general, just on how much can be carried over. Since I’m in CA and it can’t expire once accrued, the official policy is to rollover the 5, and pay out anything beyond that. It says this in my CA-specific handbook. I checked our time tracking system and 5 of my vacation days from last year did rollover, but I didn’t see any payout of the additional days. I tried to give it a little time since the first pay period of the year may have been too soon to process everything. I don’t want to seem impatient but I also don’t want to let too much time pass. Can anyone help me with a not-accusey sounding way to bring this up? Thanks in advance.

    1. Havarti*

      You could ask for clarification like “Hi [payroll/HR/accounting person], I have a question about accrued vacation days for staff in CA. My understanding was that 5 vacation days would roll over into the new year and the rest would be paid out. Is that still the case? If yes, when is it usually paid out? I see that I have the 5 days in the timesheet system but was wondering what the timeline is for the process. Thanks so much! – Anonanon” I mean it IS March.

    2. Little Bean*

      I would just email asking for an update on the timeline. You can say something like “Per X policy (link to handbook here), I know that my unused vacation days from 2017 will be paid out. Could you let me know when I should expect to see that in my paycheck? Thanks!”

  204. Alianora*

    I received an offer for a temporary admin job and I’ll be starting next week! I’m really excited about it.

    I had applied to a different job originally. It was about 10 hours a week, and paid $16/hour. The phone interview did not go well.

    The interviewer asked, “So what will happen if you get a permanent job offer after accepting this one?” I said that I would let them know that I had accepted a temp job that I was committed to, but would be willing to try to work around my already-scheduled hours if possible. She replied accusingly, “So yes or no?” I said, “Yes, I would stay committed to this job.”

    She also demanded to know exactly where I lived and called the job a “no-brainer.”

    I got a rejection a week or so later from the HR representative who had done an initial phone screen. She referred me to the opening for my new job. The interview went great, it’s much more interesting work, and it pays $23/hour. So I’m glad I applied to the first job opening, even though I was definitely not interested by the end of the interview.

  205. Nanny*

    I feel really strange at my new job. There’s a huge learning curve involved but I’ve been here about a month and I feel like I should know way more than I do. I still have to ask questions multiple times a week
    No one has said anything that made me feel like I was behind but I can’t help but feeling like I’m dropping the ball and the ball isn’t even in my court yet.

    1. Alianora*

      This seems like a normal feeling to have. It’s way better to ask questions than to make assumptions, and good managers will appreciate that.

    2. AudreyParker*

      Agree with Alianora – I’ve always had to go through that huge learning curve far more slowly than I hoped, and I *hate* asking people questions. However, having then been on the other side, I was very much aware of how much learning new hires had to go through when they started, particularly with some of our convoluted systems and software, so would even tell them not to get frustrated if it felt like it was taking a long time – it took *everyone* a long time. Questions are a good sign, at least it means you’re not making up something random that will need to be undone (or worse, just sitting on something time-sensitive hoping you’ll sort it out)! Easier said than done, I know. But you’re definitely not alone.

    3. Nanny*

      Thank you. And I think I have a fair bit of work PTSD. My last job was super dysfunctional and questions were met with negativity and passive aggresiveness (even in the first couple weeks). This was also my first job out of college so I don’t think I have the best frame of reference for what the first couple months at a job should really look like.

    4. Constantly Braining*

      I think this is completely normal. My position has a large learning curve. I was given a month of inadequate training and left alone to either sink or swim. There is very little feedback for my position since I’m working a night shift and upper management is home eating dinner and going to bed.

      There will be an “a ha” moment, and soon, you should be excelling.

  206. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Had a slightly weird one-on-one with my manager today. I started here about 2 months ago, and didn’t realize before I started that the culture has some serious problems from a previous period of mismanagement and high turnover. Like, half the dept has work PTSD. It made trying to adjust really hard, since a lot of how it manifested was ignoring the new person (me) cause they’ll probably just leave anyway. I went out on a limb in the meeting and brought up the culture issues with my manager, including the fact that things magically got measurably better about 2 weeks ago. (people stopped ignoring me) She agreed, said PTSD was highly accurate and she was dealing with it too at a mgmt level.

    Doesn’t help that the dept, which relies on respect and reputation to function in the company, has lost that respect and now has a bad reputation. Which makes everything about my day-to-day job harder. Another thing that she acknowledged.

  207. IDontFeelSorryForPluto*

    I was in an interview recently where three of the team members that would be managed by the position had worked for the firm for 15 and 20+ years with extensive teapot experience. Since they were on the hiring committee, I can only assume that they are not candidates. I have had issues since I became a team lead with older people in similar situations. They don’t want to lead or can’t lead due to their performance (ie behavior, poor results, attitude) and they don’t want a new, younger boss that has less teapot experience although I make up for it on the tea-making client side which is often severely lacking in the departments I take over. How do you navigate that? I know I may be projecting but some body language and comments to my answers seemed hostile or dismissive but went unnoticed by the person in charge of the interview. If offered the position, would you take it knowing half your team seems to have it in for you before you even start?

  208. S*

    Curious about what others know about this – with the recent (awesome) shift in the tide with workplace sexual harassment and assault, I’ve been taking stock of my experiences and started thinking about a quick service chain restaurant that I worked at a few years back while in college. I was one of about three women total, compared with 20-30 men, for context. It was rife with issues, and overall a horrible workplace for women, but I don’t know much about where actual lines are drawn from a legal perspective. There were things that I know for a fact were definition harassment, but what do others think of this: The male employees had a system in place where they would rap loudly on the top of the cold table if an attractive customer would come in so everyone else would know to drop what they were doing and come take a look. They would then all weigh in after the customer had left. It was always incredibly uncomfortable, but is that something that would typically be an actionable complaint? I mean, all of management was in on this, so not sure who it could have even been escalated to, but….just curious!

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      It definitely would have merited a complaint, whether it rises to the level of being illegal or not!

    3. Ann O.*

      What is wrong with some men? Seriously, why do they do this? IANAL, but I think there’s an argument for hostile workplace with something like that.

  209. Lindsay J*

    Okay, so my boss was suddenly fired due to a conflict of interest being discovered on Monday. (Purchasing/sales related conflict, not personnel related conflict, if that makes a difference).

    His job has been posted, and I want to apply.

    The person hiring for his position is the director of the department, who I am reporting to in the interim. The director is planning on coming down to my location sometime soon to “go over some things” with me but doesn’t know exactly when as he has to coordinate with his wife and newborn baby as well as business needs.

    Do I put in my application ASAP and send him a note that I did?

    Or do I wait until he comes down and then ask about it then?

    As far as my candidacy goes there are a couple caveats. I haven’t been with the company a year yet, which is what is needed to change positions, generally. But that can be waived by your manager, which would be the hiring manager at the moment.

    Also, they want it based out of our headquarters, which I don’t want to move to. It’s a heavily travel involved position, my last boss lived across the country and did it 100% travel, and I can make a strong business case why working out of my current location would work.

    Also, there is a conference I have been wanting to go to. I was actually just about to ask my ex-boss about it. One of the lines on the job description is “engages in professional development”, which I think going to this conference would also show that I do.

    Do I ask current boss about going to the conference before I apply, after I apply, or mention it in same email I tell him I’ve applied in?

    Conference attendance would be free for me. Job would just have to pay for hotel/rental car/travel accommodations. And I would get useful information at it I could bring back and apply to my work/share with other employees regardless of whether or not I get the new position. (I was interested in it before all this came up for that reason).

    1. H.C.*

      First, I would keep the conference & job application as separate conversations since they are separate issues. Since you are reporting to your director in the interim, do check with him about your attending the conference (though there’s a higher-than-usual chance that you might get declined, given that your team is currently short staffed.)

      RE: applying for your boss’ job, I am not even sure you would need to go to your director about it yet. Just apply and let the process pan out (obviously, HR & hiring manager would know you’re interested from your application.)

      RE: work location concerns, I’d wait until the interview (or even offer) stage before inquiring about it; it’s way too early to bring that up now.

    2. Havarti*

      So you haven’t met with your new interim manager yet? You want to apply for position that your manager would need to approve because you haven’t been there a year. You don’t want to move to where the position is located. And you want to attend a conference. I feel like there’s a lot going on right now. I would hesitate to apply for anything without talking to the dept. director. If he’s not coming down anytime soon, maybe see if you can schedule a call with him and talk to him about your future growth and if applying to your old manager’s job is even feasible.

  210. Temperance*

    One of the nonprofit orgs that my firm sponsors asked me to “donate” 1 or 2 seats at a table that we’re paying for at their benefit, so their staff and “friends” can attend. Is this normal? Is this a thing?

    I’m going to say no, since it’s $500/plate, give or take, but it seems so rude to me. It’s like they’re saying, hey, please pay for the privilege of sponsoring our attendance at our benefit dinner.

    1. Junior Dev*

      You can certainly say no but I wouldn’t interrpet it as rudeness or entitlement. They’re asking, you’re answering. It’s their entire model of funding that they need to ask someone for money for any given thing they would like to do, with the understanding that people can always say no.

      1. Temperance*

        Asking for contributions that support the mission makes sense to me. That’s why we sponsor these events, and we’re happy to do so. Asking us to pay for a seat that they’re going to give to their own staff is just so weird to me. It’s like double dipping.

        1. McWhadden*

          I’m not really sure why you are taking this so personally. They can’t just give their own people seats they could have sold. That would defeat the whole purpose of fundraising.

    2. Colette*

      That seems pretty weird to me. They can presumably give their own staff heavily discounted tickets, since it is their own benefit.

      1. Temperance*

        That’s where my headspace is! They don’t even have to charge their staff to attend, really.

        1. Close Bracket*

          They can’t operate that way. The venue has a limited number of seats, and every seat that they would give without charge to a staff member is a seat they don’t get money for. That negates the point of the benefit. I help out with a benefit for a non-profit, and I have to buy my own ticket to attend, as do all the other planners and day of volunteers, including the ones who don’t even get a chance to sit and enjoy themselves. Ticket sales barely cover the cost of the venue; everything else is donated, food, everything. This is small scale stuff, not $500/head, but the revenue model is the same. Every seat that is not paid for cuts into overhead and lowers income.

          If it makes it easier to swallow, think of it as them asking for you to purchase tickets to the benefit for your own staff and also to sponsor some of their own staff to attend. If you don’t want to, just say no.

          1. Temperance*

            FWIW, I did say no. I think it left a bad taste in my mouth because they wanted the guest names, which they don’t actually use for anything, over a week prior to the event, and then included the pitch to ask for seats at our table in it. It sort of seemed to me like they were trying to make the deadline early so they could assign randos to our table, but this might be my offense at how he worded it.

          2. Colette*

            Sure they can. They can decide that they want 500 paying guests and they need 10 staff there, so the venue has to accommodate 510 people. Or they can decide they don’t need staff there, so it’s just the 500 paying guests.

    3. Thlayli*

      Personally I would look into getting another charity. That would be a red flag for possible corruption to me.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m assuming that by “their staff” they might possibly mean the staff that will be volunteering to work the event that night — probably unpaid since it’s nonprofit — and that the nonprofit will otherwise have to either pay for their dinner or worse, leave them to fend for themselves for dinner after working set up or during the event. If you aren’t using the seats for your own people, I think it would be nice to donate them. But I’m a bit biased, having been an nonprofit employee voluntold to work fundraising events and then, after hours of manual labor which I’m expected to do while dressed appropriately for a black tie event, given a cold dinner at the “kids table” in a storage room out of sight.

      1. Temperance*

        It’s actually not for the staff working the event for this one. They use a professional catering and event planning staff. Their own staff might walk around the room and schmooze, but they aren’t doing any manual labor.

        What you’re talking about sounds way different, and sucky!

    5. k*

      I work at a nonprofit and we wouldn’t do that. We’ve had people offer to donate tickets they aren’t using, and if a sponsor said that they were not going to use all of their spots we may ask if those could be donated to someone else. To be fair, we do not do events anywhere near that scale, but in general that seems like bad practice.

    6. McWhadden*

      I’ve seen other non-profits do it. It’s not that unusual. A lot of places don’t fill their entire table. Since they mostly donate to give to the org and have their name listed. So they have extra seats anyway.

      Obviously saying no is fine but I don’t think it’s that crazy. It would be far more concerning if they were taking away seats that could have been paid for to give to their own. That would be fiscal mismanagement.

      1. Temperance*

        It was honestly the first time I’ve ever had this request, and I’ve been coordinating our donations for a few years. In my city, most of the events are not sit-down dinners but cocktail receptions, and the staff always attends. Maybe it’s just a cultural thing.

        1. nonegiven*

          Their staff that will walk around and schmooze, will they have a place to sit and eat without buying their own $500 ticket and are they able to afford those tickets for themselves?

  211. Dang, Gurl — You Got a Long Notice!*

    Long time lurker, first time poster! tl;dr How long of a notice is too long when leaving a job to go to grad school?

    The details: This is my second job out of college, and I’ve been here ~3 years. Last spring/summer, I became really dissatisfied due to lack of growth opportunities and management being totally checked out. I interviewed for a few jobs and even received an offer but decided in the process that I want to/should pursue a master’s degree and that it would be best to stick it out at my job until enrolling. Otherwise, I’d be starting a new job knowing I’d only be there a year. I knew my boss would be happy for me and willing to write a recommendation letter + keep me around until classes begin. Perfect! Except…

    About two weeks after I made this decision, a wrench was thrown into my plan: Our tiny company was acquired by a much bigger one located in another city. The transition has been handled very (!) poorly — if I’d known how things were going to play out, I definitely would’ve left. I’ll spare you all the details, but basically my bosses were moved to another department, and my one coworker and I have been operating on an island with no oversight or assistance for six months, working at breakneck speed to make good on the work that was sold to our clients pre-acquisition. Now that that work is complete, we’re starting to become more integrated with the parent company, and we were recently assigned a new supervisor. This supervisor told me that moving forward I will be painting tea pots instead of inspecting tea pots, like I’ve been doing and enjoy, since I do not have an advanced degree. My three years of inspecting experience do not count for anything here because, I’ve been told, the higher ups like to be able to tell clients that all inspectors have graduate level degrees.

    I was planning to tell the new company that I’ll be leaving two or three months in advance, but now I’m in an awkward position where they know I’m not interested in tea pot painting but have made me a tea pot painter anyway. This company spends a lot of time talking about goals, etc. and I do not want to have to spend the next six months feigning a sudden love of tea pot painting. I would rather go ahead and tell them and see if we can work something out where I continue to do at least some inspecting since I’m not going to be here very long. An added layer is that my former bosses who are now elsewhere in the company know I’ll be leaving so I’m constantly worried they’ll slip up and mention it to someone else. I think in this particular situation, it makes sense to give a very long notice, but some of my family/friends strongly disagree. I feel very confident that I would not be fired, but is it inappropriate to give a six month notice?

    1. Dang, Gurl — You Got a Long Notice!*

      *Realizing upon re-read that “teapot” is definitely one word — doh!

    2. Close Bracket*

      I would stick to the standard 2 weeks. You don’t have to pretend to be excited about growth as a teapot painter, and they aren’t going to let you stay in the inspector position just because you are leaving in six months. Go with the flow, take any classes or what have you that they send you to in terms of growth, paint your teapots, and find things outside of work to counteract your dissatisfaction.

      1. Dang, Gurl — You Got a Long Notice!*

        I guess I shouldn’t have included the information about the eventual changeover from inspector to painter because that is not my primary concern. I have no intention of asking if I can keep inspecting until I leave — that would just be a nice perk if they decided not to disrupt the current status quo. (We currently have more of a need for inspecting than painting.) My primary concern is basically lying about my goals and intentions, especially since my new supervisor asked point blank if I would consider going back to school to become an inspector. Because they’re trying to figure out how to build out our local team, we talk a lot about what things will look like in six months, and they are depending on me to be able to teach other people within the parent company how our industry works. Whenever I end up giving my notice, they will know that I planned to leave for a long time so two weeks seems extremely short.

    3. bb-great*

      Why are you confident you wouldn’t be fired? As I see it, they inherited you in a merger and they intend to have you do different work than you were doing before–so they have no preexisting relationship with you or your work and your previous experience is not valuable to them. So unless there’s something else at play that you haven’t mentioned (ie they are super duper understaffed and 3 months is better than nothing), I don’t really see an incentive for them to stick it out and accommodate you as opposed to just letting you go and hiring someone who fits their needs better. (Note this is obviously not a comment on your quality as an employee! Just trying to reason this out from their perspective.) I wouldn’t give notice unless you were okay with being asked to leave earlier than you planned.

      1. Dang, Gurl — You Got a Long Notice!*

        I was trying not to add too much extraneous info, but maybe I should have mentioned that the company that acquired us has no experience working with the industry my company specializes in. They acquired us because they want to break into this industry, and my coworker and I have a lot of specialized knowledge and client relationships there. In short, I’m doing work that they don’t know how to do/aren’t approved by our clients to do — we are very siloed off (operationally and legally), and we’re understaffed already. The benefit to them of me continuing to inspect is that they would not waste resources re-training me. Maybe I should’ve also clarified that I am still currently inspecting — it’s just that the plan for me moving forward is to eventually no longer inspect. In my view, it would be more of a burden to hire and attempt to train someone while we’re still in flux. Additionally, I have a close relationship with my former bosses who are now VPs, and they would raise hell if I was fired.

  212. Being Professional at Work With a Cold*

    I work in an office that’s a) very understaffed and b) requires a high level of professional polish. I’m very client-facing and have been talking to people all day. I’m not sick enough to warrant calling out of work, especially considering how few people we have in the office. However, I feel horribly embarrassed by my pretty severe cold – I’m sniffly, have gone through several packs of tissues, and my voice sounds pretty croaky and stuffed up. I’m prefacing every meeting with an apology for the way my voice sounds, and so far people have been very kind about it. How do I present myself professionally until I get to leave when I feel like a horrifying snot monster?

    1. IfYoureSickStayHome*

      IDK where you are but with flu season so ugly here, people get downright nasty when you show up with cold or flu symptoms in our teapot offices. I am not sure you can present yourself professional when you sound unwell, snotty, and coughing. Are you sure you absolutely have to be there? I bet you are making everyone including clients worry you are contagious–colds are contagious for several days after symptoms start.

      1. Sickly*

        Why do so many commenters on this site think everyone has enough sick leave and job flexibility to stay home for several days with every cold?

  213. Casuan*

    In US news, a pregnant senator wants to change the rules so that a child not older than one year can be brought on the floor so the parent can vote. My understanding is that this exemption would only be for voting. I really can’t decide what I think about this. If this simply means that the parent can step onto the floor long enough to vote & then leave, then… okay?
    I understand the theory, although I don’t know if I like the precedent because eventually it could be used to argue that children should be permitted on the floor during other times, which could be disruptive. Even if this setting were re-paradigmed to another work environment I’d be conflicted.
    What are your opinions?

    1. Snark*

      I think it’s self-serving, really, unless the same prerogative is extended to other mothers. And it’s not actually all that necessary; even an infant can be safely left in the care of a nanny with a decent supply of pumped milk for a full work day, as many women are expected to do, much less the hour or two it might take at most to vote.

      1. McWhadden*

        Most women take maternity leave. If Congress is in session a senator/conrgesswoman can not or the vote for the people she represents is not counted.

    2. Overeducated*

      I am in favor. I think it’s a very limited exemption for an important and irreplaceable job function in a country that frankly makes it harder to be a working mother than almost anywhere else. It would mean something to me to see that example.

    3. NottaCarlotta*

      Meh. Why not? People take their kids to WAY more inappropriate settings so this is barely a blip for me. There were very small children sitting in our row when my SO and I went to see the new IT movie.

    4. Thlayli*

      Why would that even bother you? There’s a woman in the EU parliament that brought her kid to work Andrew vote with her for years – I have serious issues with that because I think it’s very unfair on the child, but I don’t see how it would be a problem for An infant.

      2. Casuan*

        Thlayli, I’m not at all “bothered” by it. Rather, I’m ambivalent. I’m a bit puzzled as to why it would be necessary yet I also can see it not being a big deal.
        Another senator said that she’d be happy to hold the child whilst its mother voted, yet that senator will also fight so she won’t have to hold the child. I like that sentiment.

        1. Thlayli*

          It’s not “necessary” but it’s a tiny concession that would make life a lot easier for this particular working mother. And for her child. And hopefully that would serve as an example for other organisations to make similar small concessions. So why oppose it?

          Imagine baby is in a sling fast asleep snuggled up to mammy. It’s so much easier on both of them to just walk in and vote, than to take baby out, probably wake her up, hand her to a stranger, and then leave her with said stranger for 20 mins or so, then have to calm her down and get her back into the sling. That would be much more disruptive.

          In this particular case having a baby with her does not prevent her from doing her job. and as others have said she is an elected representative and can’t just get a temp to fill in, so she can’t really take a proper maternity leave.

    5. McWhadden*

      I’m strongly in favor. We have a representative democracy. This woman is elected to represent the people in her state. She has a responsibility to make those votes. She can’t just get a temp to fill in while she’s on maternity leave.

    6. Ann O.*

      Yes, I think Sen. Duckworth should be able to bring her infant child with her so that she can vote. To me, this is a no brainer. Casting a vote is a short term thing. The infant is not going to be significantly disruptive. Yes, there are workarounds, but why should she need to use them? Also, the workarounds are more likely to be disruptive–when my kid was a young infant, she was waaaaay more likely to cry if handed off to a stranger.

      Given some of the circuses that have happened in the Senate, I don’t care if this leads to infants being allowed on the floor during other times. I am 100% fine with normalizing the presence of infants.

    7. Earthwalker*

      With votes running so close in the US senate, I can imagine that there might be a lot of interest – hers and her colleagues’- to make sure that every possible vote counts. If the Senate were not as contentious as it is now, I wonder if she’d be asking.

  214. The Other Dawn*

    I really wish I could focus better at work. Dealing with this chronic back pain is a PITA and it makes me so distracted. I have a bunch of stuff I need to get done before my project’s “live” date, and I just can’t seem to buckle down for more than five or 10 minutes at a time. Sitting for more than 10 minutes hurts and make me antsy. Standing for the same amount of time does the same thing. I only feel good when I’m walking or working out, and I obviously can’t do my job while doing either of those things. UGH.

    I have a consultation in a couple weeks to talk about a disc decompression procedure that should help me (I hope!!), but I have to suffer through in the meantime. The cortisone shots have completely worn off and I can’t get any more, and they actually didn’t work well to begin with, so I’m stuck with Tylenol until I can get the procedure.

    1. CheetoTaketheWheel*

      I am having a rhizotomy procedure done in my neck in the next couple of weeks. I have a cervical bulging disc due to a motor vehicle accident (long story). Unfortunately, relief with the procedure is not permanent but should keep me pain-free for a year or several months. I have had two epidural steroid injections and one medial block injection which worked well albeit briefly and my standing desk has helped. All the docs I see are handing out stout pain meds like candy but I only use them when I really need them (ie severe, unrelenting pain or inability to sleep) because people in my family are prone to abuse prescription drugs. I do hope you find some relief because I know how difficult it can be to focus through this kind of pain. Best wishes.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Best wishes to you, too!

        Is the temporary relief due to nerves regenerating and that’s why it won’t last?

        My procedure is also for bulging discs. I have two in the lumbar region. The procedure they want to do for me is nucleoplasty, which dissolves the center of the affected discs, relieving the pressure on the nerves. I’m hoping mine will give long-lasting relief, but I won’t know much about it until my consult.

        1. CheetoTaketheWheel*

          No the docs just say that the nerves grow back (its a burning of specific nerves in the joint) and make connections so the pain and numbness can return after a while. I really look at it as the last treatment though because I don’t want major surgery–I never hear a good ending for them.

          1. Anono-me*

            A family member had a similar procedure (different location) and it went really well.
            Also the doc said it was not uncommon for the nerves to stop growing back after a few procedure. Good luck.

    2. Anono-me*

      Would a walking treadmill desk be a viable temporary solution?

      Good luck with the project and the doctoring.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I’m not sure my company would go for that. They’re pretty accommodating, but I think that might be too much. I have a standing desk already, as well as a special chair and foot rest. I could ask. I’m not sure how I’d do with something like that, though. I think it would be really distracting for me.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Heating pad at your desk? I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. I have two bad discs, which are usually manageable, but I was in my boss’s office this morning and I had one of those be-very-careful-right-now-or-you’ll-have-a-spasm sneezes. (Bad back people, you know those sneezes). I don’t think she’d even seen somebody sneeze, freeze and then straighten up so slowly it looked like they were trying not to startle a deer.

  215. SitStand*

    My department is being moved to a new space with sit/stand desks. I was told that I might not be able to bring my anti fatigue mat as it would ruin the aesthetics of the work area. The mat is plain and black, about 2ftx3ft. I’m not sure what to do.

    1. HarmonySandwich*

      Ask them to purchase you an anti fatigue map that meets their standards of aesthetics? Perhaps a doctors note? Weird battle for them to pick.

    2. T3k*

      That is such a bizarre reason my brain just stopped momentarily. I’d bring it up, pointing out you really need the mat for health reasons and if you can’t bring it because it doesn’t match, ask if they’ll replace it with one more pleasing. And if they still don’t budge, I second getting a doctor’s note or going to HR about it because seriously, health reasons is a lot more valid than “I don’t like how it looks on the floor”.

    3. Thlayli*

      Bring in a doctors note saying you need the mat for health reasons and tell them they can buy you a prettier one if they want.

    4. Millennial Lawyer*

      If you don’t mind me asking, what is the mat for? Comfort for standing? Honestly, I’d bring it anyway and see what they say…

  216. Tris Prior*

    I’ve noticed a pattern in every job I’ve had. Things go well for 2 or 3 years. Then, co-workers start leaning more on me (though we are peers and in some cases they have much more experience than me). Things like, asking for help with things that I thought they already knew how to do. Or sitting back while I forge ahead with something that needs to be done, but has not been assigned to anyone. I help them, or volunteer to do the thing that urgently needs doing, because, I guess that’s in my nature? This escalates, until I find I’m doing most of the work for the team and feel taken advantage of.

    It’s starting to happen at my current job, which I’ve been at for almost 2 years, and I’d like to nip this in the bud before it goes further. The other day I grumbled to my partner, “I don’t understand why my co-workers suddenly can’t find their asses with both hands and are asking me stuff they already know! I am not their manager! WTF?”

    I gave up on climbing the latter a long time ago. I don’t want a promotion. I am a work-to-live person and in my field, the small pay increase that would come with promotions are not worth the trade-off in stress and hours.

    But I’m having a hard time finding the line between helping others and taking on work to the point that I feel taken advantage of, and sitting back and feeling like a big slacker. I guess step 1 would be to stop saying to my boss “I can take care of this” when some request comes in, and wait for it to be assigned? That runs SO counter to how I think, though.

    To make this harder, my boss recently praised me for my initiative and that felt GREAT until I realized, uh oh, this is starting again and in another couple years I’ll be solely responsible for the shittiest projects because “you can handle it” while everyone else coasts.

    tl;dr: Where is the line between “hard worker” and “doormat”?

    1. CatCat*

      If this is a pattern that you have noticed that makes you unhappy and you volunteering to take things on is at the center of it then I think your instinct is right to let the boss triage the work and assign things out. The boss is giving you things because you are saying you can do it!

      Stop volunteering so much to help out the peers. Of course they are accepting your help because you are providing the help when they ask. Next time, “I think that procedure is documented on the intranet.” “I’m actually in the middle of a project right now and can’t help, sorry!” “I’m on deadline so why don’t you check in with Manager about that.”

      You’re not a slacker because you’re sticking to your assigned work. You also don’t have to do a total 180. Not being willing to volunteer for ALL THE THINGS does not mean you can’t volunteer for some of the things. Assess your current workload periodically (weekly/monthly/whatever period makes sense for what you do) and be honest with yourself about what additional capacity you have to take on more and that won’t leave you resenting your coworkers. Then fill that capacity when an opportunity to volunteer arises, but only with work you’re actually interested in.

      1. Tris Prior*

        Yeah, yesterday I did “oh, actually, I think that’s in the email that Boss sent out this morning” to the worst offender and, honestly, felt like a raving bitch for not being more helpful.

        I should note that this has nothing to do with my boss. She isn’t disproportionally assigning me work over my co-workers. But, at past jobs, that’s what eventually ended up happening because co-workers kept leaning on me to the point that they were doing very little work. (And no, I have no idea why they kept their jobs.) I’m actually grateful that I’ve seen the pattern this early, this time!

        1. Thlayli*

          I think if you feel like a bitch for sending her that, this probably rises to the level is something out of the ordinary – like something you might want to consider counselling for. It’s not normal to feel like a bitch for telling someone where to find the info they need instead of looking it up for them.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            Yes, and the fact that this keeps happening to you, suggests to me that you are unconsciously creating these circumstances, perhaps by being a “fixer” for others or someone who struggles to say no / push back. Does this manifest in other parts of your life? Do you struggle to maintain healthy boundaries with others? These are perfectly legitimate things to talk to a counselor about, if so (if not, feel free to disregard). But I agree, your example seems extremely normal behavior and not even eyebrow raising – I have told coworkers I’m too busy to assist them right now and they need to ask around, and I don’t even feel bad.

            1. Tris Prior*

              I am in therapy already and will bring this up for sure. I have been forced into a caretaking/handholding role in many aspects of life in the past, not just work – mainly because of circumstances where there was literally no one else to do it. At my job, there ARE others who can do things but I am probably defaulting to the assumption that there is no one else who will.

              I’m also wondering if the worst offender might have something going on in her personal life that makes it hard to concentrate; I know she was dealing with a parent’s health issues in the past, and lately she’s just gotten SO scatterbrained and forgetful that I wonder if that’s flaring up again. And I’m trying to be considerate of that because – been there. But it’s starting to wear on me.

    2. Swimmergurl*

      When a request comes up, I would say “hey, I can take care of “x” but that will mean I won’t get to “y” today/this week.” Hopefully, that’ll cue for your boss to say “no, y is a bigger priority than x.” or “Y doesn’t have to get done today. Let’s shift priorities to x.”

    3. Brownie*

      Been there. What I ended up doing was sitting down with my boss and explaining that, while I’m willing to (and like) to help my coworkers, it seemed as if I was getting stuck doing what should be their jobs simply because they asked me to do their work and I felt like I had more available time than them. My boss gave me good feedback on how to push back on my coworkers explaining that, while I haven’t been here as long as they have, my job title is the same as theirs and that I have every right to tell them to go do their own work. He also said that it’s not my job to take on tasks that I think need to be done, even if it’s help that a coworker has asked me for. My assigned projects come first and if I have free time in my schedule he wants me to come to him so he can give me work. That helps to get rid of the senior/junior labels, keeps me in communication with him so he can monitor my workload, and lets me silence the voice in my head that keeps wanting me to help everyone. Could you ask your boss how to handle this, maybe by phrasing it around how you feel that volunteering to help is sending you down the path of being handed all the work no one else wants to do?

      1. Tris Prior*

        Yeah, this sounds a lot like my situation – particularly the bit about taking on tasks that I think need to be done. If I see something that needs done, particularly if it’s overdue (throughout this entire project that’s pretty much everything, as people don’t turn stuff over to us on schedule), my instinct is to jump on it because OMG! LATE! People are going to be pissed and we’re going to miss a hard deadline that has no wiggle room and has Dire Consequences for being missed!

        And it’s for sure hard to say no to someone who’s been here 20 years longer than me. Even though on paper we are peers.

        I was actually going to bring this up to my boss but then was praised, out of nowhere, for taking so much initiative and being a resource for the team and I thought….. is this something my boss actually wants from me? So I didn’t. But it’s probably worth confirming that with her because I could be reading her praise as “yes, I expect you to take on work that’s not yours” and I’m fairly sure that’s not actually what she meant. Basically I need to know where to draw the line. Thanks!

    4. The Other Dawn*

      This was me for 12 years, and I still fight against it everyday.

      Stop enabling them. It’s so hard to do (I know!), but stop being so helpful. They have a job to do and so do you. If helping them is impacting your own work and it’s stuff they really should know and have done before, then either you’re being way too helpful or they aren’t right for the job.

    5. Nacho*

      Try giving non-answers to questions like “where have you looked to find [answer]?” or “have you tried [what they actually should be doing to find the answer instead of asking you]?”

  217. KatieKate*

    Follow up from last week. I emailed my colleague on Monday about the job I had previously applied for, saying I was interested this time around and would love to chat. Haven’t heard back. To soon to worry, right?

    1. Ktelzbeth*

      I don’t know what part of which country you’re in (sorry if you’ve mentioned and I missed it), but there have been some weather problems around the US this week. We lost a day and a half to a blizzard. I’d at least let it get into next week, unless there is time pressure to get the job filled. As for my confidence level in what I just wrote, I’m sure about the weather.

  218. Chocolate Teapot*

    Aargh!

    I keep accidently sending emails to the wrong person at work. We have one of those predicting email address systems, and 2 people called Jane.

    Jane Jones has been quite nice about it, but it was really Jane Smith I wanted to contact.

    1. Thlayli*

      USually there is a way to delete it from the predictive list – for example in outlook when the predicted list pops up you can press down to highlight the one you don’t want and then click delete. It won’t pop up again unless you type in the entire name again in the future. Google it – you may be able to do something similar for your system.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      This happens to me all the time. I share a similar name with someone Very Important who handles financial info. I’ve accidentally received so many delicate financial information (ALL of our banking info, for one), that it makes me nervous.

    3. Cheesecake 2.0*

      Oh nooo this happened to me once. Our chief privacy officer has the same full name as my mother-in-law and when I was shopping for a house once (on lunch break), I tried to send it to my MIL but didn’t pay attention to the predictive part and sent it to our privacy officer instead. She was very nice about it though and said it was a cute place.

    4. Effie, who is pondering*

      Our head admin and an admin at another branch have the same first name and their last names start the same way, so the other day I sent a long email about a great new caterer I found to Other Admin, who I haven’t even met yet. Head Admin popped by to tell me that I sent it to Other Admin, since Other Admin is so used to it she just forwards stuff to Head Admin :P I was pretty embarrassed but Head Admin said everyone’s done it at least once and she told Other Admin she should thank me for the tip too :)

    5. Constantly Braining*

      This keeps happening to me but in reverse. I work for a very large international corporation. I’m a low level supervisor all the way across the United States in a small operations center. I am constantly included in CEO emails and hiring procedure emails for the corporate office. Once, I was sent references from this office and asked what I thought about the potential new pilot they were considering for hire.

      I’m always responding back and letting him know that he’s got the wrong person, and let him know who he actually emailed. I get an apology, then a couple weeks later, I’m back in on the emails. This has gone on for a couple of years now, so since it’s never going to stop. I just read them and feel like I’m part of the group. They are always giving away free tickets to various concerts and sporting events, even trips. I’m just waiting for them to offer something up that I can actually attend. Haha! I’ve also expressed condolences in response to emails about someone’s cancer diagnosis, and I generally feel like I know these people now. Maybe if I ever want to move to Kentucky, I’ll email this guy for a job transfer/promotion once I finish my business administration degree. Lol

    6. o.b.*

      YMMV but when I’m trying to contact one of the 17 Janes at my org, I can often short-cut the predictive system by typing their last name instead of their first name. This does depend on how your email system is set up.

      You may also need to just train yourself to remember to double-check that you’re selecting the correct Jane

  219. Stranger than fiction*

    I have a chicken vs egg conundrum I’d like to see if anyone can help me gain perspective on:
    So we have a team who is very bitter they haven’t had raises in a few years (but are paid well for what they do imo). Some issues they had to deal with from an adjacent department have been improved ; they’ve been told they can push back on certain things; and I’m currently on a team that’s creating some standardized collateral and working to streamline some things for them.
    Meanwhile, because the raises haven’t come due to our sales being down, they’ve dug their heels in and are not putting as much effort into their jobs. I hear things from them firsthand. Some of which I keep to myself, some I let their manager know. They’re now just doing bare minimum because they don’t think the raise or bonus will ever come, even though it’s been explained to them the situation the company is in and they’ve been offered to train for more of a sales role if they would rather do that (which would pay better)
    So then do we reward their bad behavior with a raise??

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Upper mgmt isn’t really aware, only their manager is, and their manager told me he can’t simultaneously ask for raises for them and also bring to light thwir attitudes have gotten bad, ya know?

        1. Colette*

          But raises shouldn’t be on the table, since their performance sounds like it is barely adequate. It sounds like the manager is letting them set their own terms without challenging their world view at all.

    2. Jamie Claire*

      I think they are rewarding their company’s failure to appropriately compensate them for their good performance with less performance. Good for them. This isn’t a one time raise but years of raises. I am quite surprised they haven’t all left. Although, I will say in my teapot industry raises every year aren’t to be expected…but if they are an expectation in yours then if you want to retain good performers, you need to compensate them. It costs the company way more to hire, on-board, and train someone else and to adjust them to the culture .

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Just to be clear, nobody has had raises. We’ve never been a raise-a-year company. They used to come every couple years OR if you took on extra responsibility. But the company went through some turmoil ladt year and despite that we still got our bonus and the company has continued to absorb the yearly increases for our medical. Not completely defending them, but just sayin, it’s not as bad as it sounds. They’re compensated way above market for what they do as is.

  220. Sunbittern*

    What are your tips for staying motivated in a job you’re getting ready to leave? One of the major reasons I’m leaving is because of boredom (think: I can usually get the majority of my work done in 1-1.5 hours on a given day but am required to be here 8 hours a day), and there’s only so much nice-but-not-required tasks I can do. Sometimes I help out with things outside my primary administrative responsibilities that can take a few weeks from start to finish, but I don’t want to ask for more especially since I’ll be giving notice shortly and everyone is heads down during a busy time for this particular area of law.

    1. Sanity Lost*

      Do you have a bit of autonomy with how you structure your day?
      Is there an aspect of your company that you would like to move to? From Accounting to HR, or Delivery to Manufacturing, etc.
      If your manager is agreeable, use that extra time to study for improving your business acumen. Such as take an online computer class that will bring up your computer skills, learn teapot accounting, etc…
      I find it helps to list things. Write what you love about your job and why you want to stay. What aspects of the business would you like to learn more about. How do you want your career to grow. What steps can you take to enhance your job satisfaction. What kind of career do you want and in what industry.

      my .02 cents

    1. T3k*

      As someone on the opposite end, who struggles to name even 3 professional references because I’ve lost touch with past ones (they moved, left the company, the company itself closed, etc.) no, there’s no such thing as being able to have a lot of references.

    2. Thlayli*

      Having lots is good, but you should only give the best 2-3 to the prospective employer. They won’t want to spend lots of time so usually it’s your line managers from your 3rd and 2nd-last jobs (assuming you’re not telling your current employer you’re searching) or if you were going into a role for which your relevant experience was a while ago, you would give your most recent manager and a reference from the most relevant role you had.

      If you don’t have that many professional ones, academic refeeences are fine eg when starting out most people would list college or school teachers as a reference.

      1. Casuan*

        This.
        It’s good if you have a long list from which to choose. You don’t need to give every reference to whomever asks, just give the most relevant contacts. & Often a good reference checker will follow certain leads on their own.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      I’ve always stuck to about five, even though a lot of people use three. That way, they can go down my list until hey get hold of three, rather than maybe only getting hold of one of two and having to wait for them to contact them back (like if they’re busy or on vacation or whatever, which I wouldn’t necessarily know). Just saying, better odds of them getting what they need quicker.

  222. Sanity Lost*

    I just started as the HRM at a company that has not had an HR department before (it was too small). Part of my tasks is coming up with a comprehensive employee handbook; complete with a safety guide (work is agriculture based). My background is HR and I’m HR certified (why they hired me in the first place).

    The CEO & Owner love the work I do for them and the Handbook is ready to roll out. I’m irritated that the Owner’s dad, (who works as the EA for the Owner), keeps pushing back on the legal aspects of the new processes. The EA does not have a background in business or law, and actually came out and said that they cannot take my word that it is right, they should hire an attorney to make sure I haven’t screwed up. This was said to me in front of the Owner.

    I calmly replied that part of my certification is knowing HR law and keeping up with compliance issues and I am 95% sure that everything I have written will stand up in court. I couldn’t defend it (the other 5% as that would take a lawyer). This is my first job as HRM and I REALLY, TRULY believe my work can stand on its own. How do I convince the EA that my work is right, short of hitting him over the head with a law book?

    1. Ali G*

      What about using legal citations in the document (as footnotes or endnotes, maybe)? That way you can support your decisions on processes with actual laws. I know nothing about HR work or laws, so sorry if this is unhelpful! I wish you luck – and maybe if nothing works at the end of the day you just have to pull rank over the EA and point blank ask your boss “I am the expert in this room and you hired me to do this – what is the hold up?”

    2. Yetanotherjennifer*

      By EA you mean executive assistant, right? I don’t think you can convince him, but he may come to understand it in time. You gave a good response and now it’s up to the owner to accept the handbook as is or hire a lawyer to look it over. If the EA is able to convince the owner to continuously double check your work at company expense then that is useful information to have. By any chance, did the EA also take on some of those HR duties? This may be a territory thing.

    3. ANon.*

      I think the EA is being rude for sure, but I don’t think his suggestion is inherently a bad one.

      A senior-level HR executive and I worked on developing my company’s handbook and we ran the final draft by an employment lawyer (even though the senior-level HR exec had over 30 years of experience). I think it’s a pretty standard practice to make sure everything is completely ok from a legal perspective.

      Again, EA shouldn’t be coming at it with a “We can’t trust our HR” perspective, but from a “Let’s just make sure an employment lawyer gives us his blessing before we issue it” perspective.

      1. ANon.*

        (Also, FWIW, I got significant bonus points when my CEO’s trusted employment lawyer told CEO that he thought the work I was doing was excellent. If you’re sure your handbook is good, having an employment lawyer tell your CEO/Owner/EA that can further prove your worth, and maybe lay EA’s concerns about you to rest.)

    4. Millennial Lawyer*

      I’m probably biased as an employment lawyer, but – while it’s wrong to make it about not trusting you, I’m sure you did a great job, it’s actually a GOOD sign that they want to clear things with a lawyer as well. It means they care about following the law, which will make your job easier!

    5. The lawyer is worth it*

      Please have it reviewed by a lawyer for your own sanity and safety and also reconsider if you truly need a handbook. I have an HR degree, an MBA, HR certifications both old and new, and twenty years running HR departments. I’ve also worked in consulting for companies that were cleaning up/starting/scrapping existing HR practices and I’ve seen some sketchy but well-meaning stuff in handbooks.

      A good HR partnership with an excellent legal rep is worth establishing imho–although, yes, you probably haven’t made any big snafu in the handbook. But why take the chance?

  223. Ali G*

    Attire Question:
    I posted a message on my local NextDoor page looking for suggestions for part time temp work. A couple of people emailed me directly saying they might have something for me to do. If I meet up with them to discuss the position(s) (mostly temp office work like filing, answering phones, etc.) do I need to wear a suit? I would definitely wear one if I went to their offices, but since these people live in my neighborhood, they may want to meet somewhere local.
    I only have one suit so I don’t want to waste it on a meet up, if I would then need it for an actual interview.
    Thanks for any suggestions!

    1. Sanity Lost*

      I would advise a step down from a formal business suit. A blazer and slacks (or blouse and slacks); would be the most appropriate. You want a step up from business casual.

  224. Carb lover*

    I have a coworker, Fergus, who’s going through a messy divorce. His ex also works with us. She was in an accident and while out on leave he was very vocal about what was going on in their relationship and making sexual jokes to the point that several of us complained to our managers about how uncomfortable we felt. He was spoken to, she came back, things calmed down.

    A few weeks ago he made a comment about what i was eating so i asked why he was watching that. He proceeded to follow me to my desk, and asked if i had eaten a candy bar. I asked again why he was so concerned with what I eat. Instead he grabbed a snack off my desk and loudly announced that i est more calories in a snack than he does in a week so i said that those kinds of statements can cause disordered eating so i wanted to talk about something else. He looked at me and said “I’m just saying you’d be skinnier if you’d listen to me” so i told him the conversation was over and ignored him until he finally left. I filed a complaint and his excuse was that we should all know he hates carbs. He was told to stay away from me. A few weeks later he was promoted to management and moved to the other side of the office. But the last two weeks he’s been walking passed my desk (there’s nothing over near me that he’d need to be over there for) and today knocked on my cube until i responded to his helll. I don’t want to overreact but I am a young female and his behavior makes me feel so uncomfortable at work, both in my desk and eating lunch. How do i proceed without coming across dramatic or immature?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      He sounds completely nutso, but I’m majorly side-eyeing your company for promoting someone with complaints like this out there. I guess most charitable interpretation was that he’s trying to mend fences by coming over and saying hello, but if he was told to stay away from you and has no reason to interact with you I’d go straight back to HR to report that it’s not happening. There’s *no excuse* to tell someone they’d be skinnier if they listened to you, or to bother someone else about their calories, so I’d take a very hard line on that – any reasonable HR would listen to you.

      2. Carb lover*

        Thank you! It makes me feel so much better to just hear that I’m not over reacting for being annoyed. I’ll definitely let HR know he’s still trying to talk to me.

    2. nep*

      Don’t hold back from speaking up for fear of seeming ‘dramatic’ or ‘immature’. This is unacceptable behaviour and a person must not be subject to this in the workplace.
      Sorry you’re having to deal with this.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      “How do I proceed without coming across dramatic or immature?”
      First step is to completely eliminate that thought. From what you’ve already written, you clearly have a correct view of professional boundaries and I’m really happy you filed a complaint. I’m very disturbed that this person was promoted.

      What you need to do now is document, with dates and time, exactly what he does every time he does it. I would also do a cursory google search to familiarize yourself with employment laws in your state (just to put in your back pocket in case it continues or escalates). Be aware of your rights, and when you feel comfortable, bring it to your superior.

      1. Millennial Lawyer*

        Superior and/or HR – whatever you did the last time in terms of filing a complaint.

    4. a-no*

      Every time he says something stupid, say something back.
      F:”Do you know how many calories are in that” You: I don’t recall asking your opinion on my food. Is there something work related you need, Fergus? No? Then please leave.
      F:”You should eat better” You: and that’s none of your business, Fergus. I’ve asked you to stop commenting and HR has told you to stop. Is there a work related thing you need? No? Then please leave.
      Repeat. Document every single instance he comes near you, and send it monthly to HR (or talk to HRand let them know you are keeping a log as he isn’t listening and see what they say).

      1. a-no*

        If not food related, next time he stops by “Oh, did you need something work related, Fergus? No? Then please leave”
        One thing that took me a long time to figure out is that if someone makes you feel uncomfortable, you don’t need to roll over and accept it. Politely tell him to leave but keep documenting all of it. Dates & time and what happened. He’s already shown he has bad manners and is likely to push the boundaries you put up with HR. Keep HR in the loop and don’t forget this is a Fergus problem, not a you problem. He’s the one behaving poorly, not you.

        1. amy l*

          Wait. He was told to stay away from you. The he comes by your desk and doesn’t leave until you acknowledge his presence. He is harassing you and making you uncomfortable. I would complain.

  225. NoTalk*

    Bully for the Bullies

    Part I of an ongoing series detailing my hellish workplace. This week’s post focuses on 20-something sorority girl with a mile-wide manipulative streak.

    Elle: A 24-year-old program manager who recruits millennials to support the nonprofit. She has the ear of leadership in a boundary-crossing way that includes late night texts, visits to apartments and extensive jokes about what people eat and wear.

    In February Elle began giving me the silent treatment. This lasted for two full working weeks and carried into the start of a third. Our mutual boss was out of the office and did not witness the lack of interaction. Given that I consider the silent treatment juvenile and passive-aggressive, I continued my daily work without comment and thought it would pass.

    Oh, how mistaken I was! She escalated her aggressiveness to include telling our boss that I made “disparaging” remarks about her. He and a colleague pulled me out of a meeting to confront me and put me on a PIP. Neither would tell me what exactly I was accused of and what has prompted the confrontation.

    To this day, I remain in the dark about what I did or said to upset Elle and place my job in jeopardy.

    I have made an effort to be as amiable and professional as possible when in the office. This includes keeping my desk and workspace the most organized of anyone on the team, volunteering to assist other departments, and keeping my mouth shut on a variety of issues. The doormat tactic appears to be working, but my boss will not meet with me to discuss either my projects, PIP or anything else. I have gone three weeks without discussing any projects with him.

    Now that we have momentarily resolved the silent treatment issue with two apologies from me (one verbal, one written), Elle’s newest move is to stand at the cubicle next to mine when I’m in deep concentration and on deadline and talk very loudly about her personal problems and to grouse about her community partners. For example, she recently spent 40 minutes monloguing about her recent bad travel experiences that include puking on planes, having her flight delayed, and the subpar airport food. While she continued her chin-wagging, I steadily turned my attention to my computer, the copier and the paperwork I was on deadline to complete. This apparently annoyed her as I was met with an eye roll and sigh. What did I do wrong?

    Between the silent treatment, the loud bellyaching and the unprofessional hold she has on our supervisor, I am truly worried about how to work with her. Can I work with her?

    Thanks for reading Part I of Bully for the Bullies.

    1. Close Bracket*

      > Neither would tell me what exactly I was accused of and what has prompted the confrontation.

      I have had this experience, and I’m sorry. I hope it gets better, or that you get out of the situation.

      1. NoTalk*

        Close Bracket:

        Thank you for your kind words and commiseration.

        I genuinely appreciate them.

      1. Havarti*

        Also you’re already on a PIP. That’s usually the 2nd to last step before they fire you so I think you should be brushing up on your resume rather than worrying how you wronged someone that unprofessional.

        1. NoTalk*

          Havarti:

          I believe that I can salvage this job, but I need to go along to get along. That’s why I’m spending time analyzing the situation.

          As an aside, Why did you comment twice in a row? Very strange.

          1. Ktelzbeth*

            That sounds like a tough situation. I’m not Havarti, but I comment twice in a row sometimes when I think of something else I should have said immediately after I hit “submit” to post my comment. Once up, it can’t be edited, so the additional thought has to go in its own comment. Calling the commenting habits of someone trying to give you advice that you requested seems a little bit picky or maybe unfriendly. This may be different than how you are in the office, but if Elle is particularly sensitive or out to get you, it’s pretty easy to hear or manufacture offense in little things like that.

            My other thought is that I see that you have a plan for salvaging the situation and I hope that it works, if you think that that is the best option. What I’m wondering, though, is what you see in this job to make it worth salvaging. It doesn’t sound like a good situation, but I know you can’t include everything about your job in a small post.

          2. Lissa*

            Why is that strange? i’ve done it when I forgot something else I wanted to say or think of something else, so I reply to myself…never thought it was weird. But maybe I’m strange. ;)

                1. NoTalk*

                  Yes, and I am welcome to respond to it however I like. So, to repeat, thanks for your feedback.

    3. Being Honest Here*

      I hate to say it, but from a complete stranger’s perspective it sounds like you’re leaving something out. I feel like with a PIP you should know – or want to know – what has gone wrong.

      Is there an age difference here? I note that you’re disparaging her by referring to her as a “sorority girl” and highlight her age, which seems to be irrelevant to your complaints about her (which are also unclear – if your supervisor has no issues with the way Elle does business, than that’s just the way it’s going to be – not an “unprofessional hold”).

      I would pay more attention to your own performance – if you truly have no idea what you could have done wrong to merit a PIP, I would ask for an explanation as soon as possible and work really hard to remedy it, if you care about keeping your job.

      1. NoTalk*

        Being Honest Here:

        I’m older than she is, and I bring up the sorority girl aspect because she got her sorority sister a paid internship with the organization. Additionally, she’s recruiting other sorority sisters to apply for full-time positions at the organization.

        You are right that some might take the sorority girl moniker as an insult, but in this case I believe it adds perspective.

    4. TooCool*

      This sounds like a terrible situation for you and I’m sorry. I hope you get out soon.

      But there is nothing wrong with being young or in a sorority. You are relying on stereotypes that hurt women. And I know you are just upset with her otherwise unprofessional behavior and sabotaging you but I would just focus on those things. Attacking her for things that aren’t wrong makes it seem like there is some merit in what she is saying. I’m sure there isn’t. But it doesn’t help your case.

      1. NoTalk*

        TooCool:

        Perhaps you’re right.

        The sorority girl moniker may be viewed as an insult by some. My apologies if I’ve caused offense.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Have you tried directly asking your manager “how can I improve if you won’t give me specifics?” Could you directly ask Elle? Does your work have HR you can go to? I know you say you think you can salvage this, but why not cover all bases and start a job search to give you more options?

      1. ..Kat..*

        To be clear, have you directly asked, or just hinted you would like to know. But to be put on a PIP for something you allegedly said, and your boss won’t tell you WHAT, that is bizarre.

        1. NoTalk*

          Kat:

          This is Part I of Bully for the Bullies. Another part, should I choose to continue, will focus on my absent boss who is gone a full third of the time and who has an inappropriate relationship with the younger employee.

          For some context, my boss refused to mediate the situation, explain the details to me, or otherwise help de-escalate or resolve anything. Instead, I was told to “eat crow” and “make it right.” I gather from those comments I’m on my own.

  226. nep*

    I’ve had friends recently suggest I follow up with employers where I’ve applied in the past couple/few weeks.
    I…don’t think it’s necessary or good to follow up. Right? The employer knows I’m interested in the job I applied for, and if they’re interested in me they’ll contact me.
    Why is this such a common suggestion then? I hear it quite a bit. Specifically — following up simply after sending in an application, not after an interview.
    What’s been your experience with this? (I reckon there’s no hard and fast rule — in some cases following up might turn out positively; in others, it’s only going to be a turn-off.)

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      What I remember seeing on this site somewhere (but please double check – it should come up with a search) is that one follow up if its a couple of weeks is pretty normal but after that to leave it alone. Also it depends how you follow up as well.

    2. AudreyParker*

      I think some people parrot it because it’s an old-school “rule”, up there with “you should just show up at the office unannounced and deliver your resume in person – it shows initiative!” Unless you’ve established communication with a particular human prior to submitting a resume (i.e. you’ve chatted, they asked you to send it over), there’s not much point in following up or anyone to follow up with. There could be particular environments/industries where this makes sense, but in the offices I’ve worked in I’ve found a) people are super busy and would just be annoyed by someone they don’t know bugging them, b) priorities constantly shift, so even if you have a contact name with no personal connection, they may now have 10 things that top their list above hiring for that position, c) hiring process always takes at least 3x longer than you think it will/should – time just passes at a very different rate than for the job seeker.

      Bottom line, I believe Alison’s advice is generally to set it and forget it. If you do have an actual specific human, you could check in after a couple of weeks just to see if they have an idea of the timeline, but not much more than that unless they actively request it. This is something that comes up on here fairly frequently, because those of us searching are so antsy (or being pestered about why we don’t do it) – check out the side bar for job search: following up and you’ll probably get more well-rounded info from those posts ;)

    3. nep*

      Yes — there is a tag specifically covering ‘following up’; read through those recently.
      With all the jobs I’ve applied for, I file the docs away and move on to the next. It makes no sense to me to follow up (for reasons stated in my first post). That advice is fairly prevalent…I think you’re right; it’s old school advice that has stuck for some.

  227. Buu*

    I’ve seen Thanks for the Feedback talked about here a few times. Got it out of the library last week, it’s incredibly useful. The way it dives into the psychology and physical responses to feedback is especially useful. Are they are another books about communication people can recommend?

  228. Mimmy*

    Calling all higher education student services professionals!

    Among the career paths I’ve long considered pursuing is disability services in higher education settings. I’m not sure if I want to pursue actually working directly with students, or go more towards programs that focus on educating the larger higher education community (faculty, staff, other departments) about supporting students with disabilities or ensuring the campus is accessible and inclusive.

    Since Disability Services tend to be under the umbrella of student services, I was hoping to get a sense of what that work is like and what skills and knowledge is helpful. You do not have to be in Disability Services to answer–I’m sure many skills are transferable across different student service areas :)

    Thanks!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I previously (prior to January so not that long ago!) worked in student affairs at a large university. I worked for the division head, so not directly with students as often. But in general, some things you might want to think about:

      Student services can be kind of an awkward space to work, where you’re caught between student and administrative needs. Both sides often have unrealistic expectations of the other, and you need to be able to mediate between the two. Even if it is your perspective that one side or the other is usually right, you lose credibility really fast if you become known for having that perspective.

      There can sometimes be a view that student services is either really cushy, or really squishy, and thus not really a “serious” job. (Even though these are the folks supporting students in crisis! It’s obviously a hugely important job!) At my institution, jobs in student service were often paid lower than comparable jobs in other families.

      I was an administrator, so I’m not speaking from personal experience, but one thing that I heard a lot about the skills and knowledge needed was how valuable formal education in student development was. Student bodies are increasingly diverse in many ways, including age, so there’s an ever increasing body of knowledge to need to develop on this topic, but in my colleagues’ opinions, the most successful student service professionals were those who understood the developmental stages of their students and could tailor their support to that. In my role, this often came up w/r/t protests, where it was helpful to learn and remind myself that it’s very developmentally appropriate for an 18 year old to be testing out the bounds of their emerging values and opinions and not necessarily having the most nuanced ability to map power and decision-making.

      I worked at an extremely bureaucratic university, and when you’re working with populations like students with disabilities, that gets magnified. So, I think this work really requires a lot of diplomacy, relationship building, and ability to understand both the policy on paper and the flashpoints that might not be written down. There was a lot of institutional memory that governed how things worked at my institution, and it could be tough to navigate for those who were very by the book/by the policy. I think it also requires really strong organizational skills to track issues through to completion. It was my experience that the folks I worked with in higher ed did not have as strong of organizational skills as folks I worked with in the nonprofit sector, and basically if you’re not handling all of your stuff aggressively, pure inertia often means that it’s just not going to happen.

      In student services, I found that staff are extremely dedicated to the work that they do, are staunch advocates for their students, and some of the best changemakers in the university, so I think in spite of a lot of the challenges it can be a very rewarding area to work in!

    2. KayEss*

      I worked closely with the Disability Services office for a while at one of my university jobs and… it was very discouraging. This was a large, well-known, expensive private university, and the Disability Services office was underfunded, understaffed, and largely ignored. They worked incredibly hard for the students they supported, and yet received basically no support from the administration when challenges arose–like noncompliant or outright combative faculty, etc. Despite accessibility issues being a matter of legal compliance, the university would not codify a commitment to it and requirements for faculty and staff to meet as a matter of policy, meaning that there were no professional consequences for failing to comply or completely refusing to meet a student in the middle–meaning that Disability Services had to pick up all the slack, even with their lack of staff and resources.

      You will encounter a lot of people who just… very aggressively don’t care about people, and cannot be made to care. It struck me as utterly exhausting. It was exhausting just being tangentially involved.

      1. Mimmy*

        I was afraid someone was going to warn me about this. I imagine it’s like going up against a concrete wall.

        Therein lies my quandary – I have this burning itch to learn all I can about accessibility and inclusive policies so that I can be a “subject matter expert” and offer myself as a resource, but I have to ask myself if I really want that if all it’s going to get me is pushback, especially in an environment where many feel tied down by legal mandates. You can’t legislate attitudes, unfortunately. If I’m going to get into this type of work (doesn’t have to be in a postsecondary setting), I’d want to work with people who genuinely want to create an accessible, inclusive environment.

        1. KayEss*

          It will depend on the institutional culture, but yeah… there’s probably always going to be pushback, because it involves money and work. Administration wants a nice, neat checklist of things that, once they’re “done,” everything can be considered neatly “accessible” and they won’t have to think about it ever again… because obviously no new systems or processes will ever be put in place, right? /rolls eyes Alternately, they just want to know the bare minimum they can get away with doing to avoid being sued, which… isn’t how it works. Either way, you go in there and make a proposal, and you can see them doing the cost-benefit analysis in their heads, like “oh, but this is such a small percentage of the population, and we don’t really have any disabled students right now, and it costs so much, and…” never mind that it’s objectively the right thing to do. I had a guy look me in the eye and say “well, if I have to add a descriptive alt-text to every image I use on the website, I just won’t use any images ever” like threatening to hold the efficacy of the entire website hostage was going to make me back down and save him a trivial amount of work. (Fortunately his boss stepped in and nipped that in the bud, but… he was staff, and no one ever steps in when faculty says something equally ludicrous, like “Requiring subtitles on all video material means I can’t show these YouTube clips and that compromises the entire integrity of my course!!!11 This is an assault on academic freedom!!!11”)

          You might have better luck at schools that have recently made a big commitment to diversity and inclusion, but I’d guess that it would still be an uphill battle. Some people are able to keep going in that sort of climate, but I just couldn’t.

  229. Fired! Appeals Committee*

    I am appealing (internally) my termination and I have a conference call with an appeals committee next week. Having not been involved in one of these before what should I expect? Any questions that I should ask?

    This whole situation started out with me filing a complaint of harassment with my HR department. The following day I was put on “paid leave pending investigation”. While waiting for the findings of the investigation, almost a month later I am terminated because of “conduct”. I’ve been in touch with HR but all she stated was it was based on my supposed “conduct” but could not tell me exactly what it was that I personally had done. When I filed my appeal I stated that I could not accurately fill it out because I have never been told what my “conduct” was. This whole situation in my eyes has been botched from the very beginning. Even though the appeals committee is from another district I have no reason to believe that I am going to get a fair shake.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Oh my goodness, I am sorry to hear this! Sorry no advice.
      (It seems like there could be reason to get a lawyer involved if this is retaliation, but I don’t have any experience involved.)

      1. Fired! Appeals Committee*

        I actually just got an attorney and he stated I do have a case but I need to go through the internal appeals process that way it shows I’m exhausting all options on my end. Thank you for your concern, I appreciate it!!

    2. Where's my coffee?*

      When they discuss the conduct, do you have have idea at all what they could be talking about?

      1. Fired! Appeals Committee*

        None at all. The only thing that HR told me was that it had to do with something my manager was working on of which she is part of my harassment complaint. When I tried to ask HR what exactly my “conduct”was that lead to my termination the call got dropped and I had to call back and send an email. My phone call nor my email has yet to be returned. I’m going into this Appeal Committee conference call blind.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Will your attorney be listening in on this call? I worry that they want a phone call because email leaves a record. Whereas a phone call, they can claim they never said THAT.

          1. Fired! Appeals Committee*

            No, my attorney will not be in on the call. I would have to inform my employer of such and vice versa. When I had the option to appeal I had the choice of them having a conference call with the Appeals Committee or just having the Appeals Committee make a decision. I chose the conference call because I wanted the option to ask questions.

  230. Katielyn*

    So, I’m curious about this. Earlier, Alison posted on Facebook about an admin opening and stated “They’re especially interested in recruiting people of color and indigenous people.” How is that different from the racial discrimination we’re always talking about on here? I thought you couldn’t take race into consideration when hiring? Is there something specific about this particular wording that makes it different?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’re allowed to make special effort to recruit minority candidates into your applicant pool — to make sure that you have a diverse pool of applicants. What you can’t do is take race, etc. into account in the hiring decision itself.

      1. Katielyn*

        Isn’t “making a special effort to recruit minority candidates” taking race into account in your hiring decision? I’m trying to understand… so, you’re saying it’s legal for a company to say “we encourage people of X race to apply” but can’t say “we hired X because they’re Y race”?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You can put all sorts of energy into getting diversity into your pool. For example, you can advertise at traditionally black colleges or in publications for Latinx professionals in your field or do women-oriented job fairs. You can make special efforts to seek out and recruit minority candidates. And yes, you can explicitly say in your ads that you encourage minority candidates to apply. That stuff is all about building your pool of candidates, and making sure that your pool is diverse so that hopefully you have people of all kinds of different backgrounds in the mix.

          What you can’t do is pick the person you hire based on their race (or gender or religion or so forth).

          So you make the pool diverse, and then you hire the best person from it. And the idea is that you’ll have far more chance of having a diverse staff if you do the stuff above to ensure the candidate pool you’re hiring from is diverse itself.

          1. JamieS*

            Where’s the line though? If the applicant pool’s gender and race makeup is vastly inconsistent with the general population’s make up as a result of diversity efforts is that discriminatory practice? If so, what constitutes “vastly inconsistent”? Or does the applicant pool makeup not matter and the only thing that matters is whether access to the job posting was restricted based on race or gender? For example, you only advertise the job at a women’s job fair thereby intentionally reducing applicants who are men. Or does that not matter either? What about if the hiring manager in jobs where applicants take a skills tests move minority/women applicants forward if they test as being generally proficient but move white men ahead in the process only if they test as having master proficiency? Does that count as discrimination based on race/gender or no?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              If your hiring practices have a disparate impact on particular racial groups in terms of who you ultimately hire, then that would be illegal. Generally employers who do things to encourage minority candidates to apply are doing it because their candidate pools are too homogenous otherwise.

              1. Katielyn*

                Per the employment attorney Suzanne Lucas spoke with, “The OFCCP, the federal agency that administers affirmative action plans for federal contractors, has already told us the language one is to use to encourage under represented groups to apply for positions — “All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, or disability.”

                Anything else is discriminatory. Just as you can’t say, “Whites only,” you can’t say, “African Americans only,” or “African Americans encouraged to apply.” It’s laudable to want to increase minority representation in employment, but you can’t do it by actively, or tacitly, discriminating against others.”

                By stating that the company is especially interested in recruiting potential candidates of a specific race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, or disability, they are discriminating against others.

                Source of quote: https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/job-posting-candidates-must-be-african-american-native-american-hispanic/latino-am.html

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That language she cited is for federal contractors.

                  Here’s the EEOC speaking directly about this for private employers: “You first ask whether it is legal for an employer to use phrases in job advertisements such as “women or minorities are encouraged to apply.” To develop an applicant pool that reflects the demographics of the qualified labor force, it may be necessary to encourage members of underrepresented groups to apply. We know of no case in which an employer has been held liable for using such language in their job advertisements. As one court observed, “[a]n employer’s affirmative efforts to recruit minority and female applicants [do] not constitute discrimination.”

                  Source: https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2008/titlevii_ada_jobadvertis.html

                  Language like “we encourage women and minorities to apply” is extremely common in jobs ads (and legal).

          2. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

            Interesting. Back when I was job searching for my first job I applied for a position that was only available for women. When I was interviewed, the HR employee made clear that they wanted a more diverse workplace.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              That’s definitely illegal! You can encourage women (or whoever) to apply, but you can’t say (explicitly or by action) that you’ll only hire women (or minorities, or so forth).

              1. Grandma Mazur*

                What about a situation where (for example) a non-profit rape crisis organisation wants to only employ women as crisis counsellors? In the UK my understanding is that that would be legal, because you can show how that would be necessary to further the charitable aims of the organisation with regard to the targeted beneficiaries – who are not necessarily exclusively females, but likely to be, and who might understandably not want to discuss what happened to them with a man… (not sure if it would be true for profit -making companies). Would that be legal in the US?

    3. buttercup*

      There is a difference between making efforts to diversify the applicant pool vs. excluding certain races from the applicant pool. The former is based on the assumption that a lot of structures in place for hiring practices naturally exclude minorities.

  231. Anon for this one*

    I hope someone is still out there reading. I just found out my husband was fired today and I don’t know what to do. He works for a university and was fired for cause – long story short, he’s been written up for emotional outbursts, and thought he had everything under control (through therapy and medication) but apparently complaints were made over the last week about things that he thought were fine (for example, he expressed frustration that an office he needed something from was closed, and said, man, I should have called ahead, but the person with him complained that his face got red and he was shaking, and I don’t know if that was true, but even if it was, is being visibly agitated a fireable offense?)

    Questions

    1. Being fired for cause, I assume he’s not eligible for unemployment, right?
    2. He didn’t think to ask HR any questions, so I don’t know if he’s eligible for rehire in a different department, or if they’ll pay out the (ton) of annual leave he has. No way of talking to anyone until Monday. Anyone who works for a state university want to comment on the likelihood of that?
    3. He’s wondering if he should talk to an attorney, but he wasn’t fired for anything that he shouldn’t have been fired for (i.e., whistleblowing). It was a difference of opinion, and it feels unfair (others in his office have been even more emotional, to the point of being rude, and at least one person commented that it seemed unfair that he was under more scrutiny and expectations than they were), but there’s likely nothing an attorney could do, right? They said he could respond, in writing, to the points in the letter they gave him, but there doesn’t seem to be an reason to do that.
    4. He’s already on my insurance, so I don’t need to take any action there.
    5. What the hell, seriously, what the f-ing hell.
    6. What else should we be worrying about right now?

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      1. File anyway. Let the unemployment office decide. If you’re denied, appeal. Nothing bad will happen if you’re denied in an appeal (except you don’t get unemployment of course). It doesn’t affect your job search or other employability factors.
      2. Call on Monday and ask those questions.
      3. I’d avoid an attorney until you really need one. I wouldn’t respond to the letter (they’re not going to rehire him) but the Unemployment office might want that.
      4-5. No advice.
      6. References. When you talk to HR, ask this question also.

    2. CAA*

      I’m sorry you and he are going through this.

      Do not make assumptions with regard to unemployment. There’s no way to know if he’ll get it until he applies and they do an evaluation. He should apply for it right away because there is a waiting period.

      It cannot hurt to consult with a lawyer who specializes in wrongful termination claims. It’s not very likely that the attorney can do anything, especially if this has been an ongoing problem and he’s been warned in the past. The employer is allowed to determine that his behavior has been too much of a distraction and they don’t want to deal with it any longer, even if they don’t make that same decision about other people. If he believes that he was targeted specifically because he’s a member of a protected group, or because he has an ADA protected condition, that would be different. I do not think he should respond to the points in the letter, but if he does see a lawyer he needs to bring the letter and copies of all past disciplinary notices with him.

      Other things to think about:
      – Are they paying him severance? If so, then he might have to agree not to sue to get it. If he decides to talk to a laywer, tell him not to sign any severance agreement until he’s done that.
      – If he is getting severance and you can afford it, max out his contributions to the 401k or HSA or any similar plan.
      – When he asks about his accrued leave payout, he should also ask what HR will say if a future employer calls for verification.
      – If he has a good relationship with his own manager or other senior colleagues, he should get in touch with them in a week or so and find out if they’ll act as references in his job search.

    3. H.C.*

      1. Generally yes, he’s not eligible for unemployment
      2. Depends on the state & possibly the employer (I live in California, and generally any accrued vacation/personal time [not sick] has to be paid out)
      3. This depends, but probably worth at least a check in (many employment attorneys will provide initial consultation for free, to see if there’s anything worth pursuing – this can range from contesting the termination to negotiating severance pay to getting HR to just verify his date of employment [and not saying anything about being fired or not eligible for rehire] when getting background check calls.)
      6. If he’s on the pension/retirement plan, check to see if his firing affects that (esp plans where he isn’t fully vested.)

      1. H.C.*

        revise in light of others’ comments RE: #1 – yes, he should file for unemployment anyways to see how that pans out; it doesn’t hurt to try.

    4. Where's my coffee?*

      He may or may not receive the unemployment, but he should certainly file for it. Depending on your state, it’s not always cut and dry regarding cause.

      He can contact an attorney but I am doubtful much would come of it, given that his employer (fairly or not) has documented a pattern of behavior over time and presumably warned him of consequences. From the perspective of other employees, what could just feel a little emotional to him could be perceived as disruptive, frightening or threatening to his peers.

      He could check the leave payout policies on the university’s website; it’s hard to say without knowing your state, what type of leave it is, and whether it was granted or accrued.

      I’m sorry–this must be terrible news. I hope he is able to find something quickly.

    5. Close Bracket*

      Unfortunately, once you are under scrutiny, you are held to different standards than others, and even the tiniest thing becomes a problem. He could probably have stubbed his toe, said “ow” in a conversational tone, and been reported. It sucks. I’m sorry this happened to your husband.

    6. ..Kat..*

      If this is in the United States, is his mental health problem ADA protected? An employment lawyer can help with this .

      1. Anon for this one*

        Anxiety and depression, so I don’t think so. But even if they were protected, isn’t it too late? He told his boss what was going on, but never did anything official.

        1. Annon*

          I’m not a lawyer, but my guess is that having anxiety and depression doesn’t mean he can’t be fired for emotional outbursts anyway… I’m sorry.

  232. complicated*

    I cry easily and am sensitive to teasing, comments, and criticism. I heard some teasing during the interview when walking about the common areas, but not from my interviewers. I really like the opportunity, the job, the place, and the interviewers. It is very beneficial to my career. I don’t want to give it up just because of something silly. But I also know myself that I tear easily, which can make me miserable. I don’t know what to do? I don’t want to end up miserable and having to look again, but I also know this a great opportunity that might not come to me again. Can someone provide some guidance?

    1. KR*

      I think if you get hired you could find some opening in your first month or so to mention you tear up easily and don’t like being teased. Light teasing is pretty usual and I think you might have a hard time finding a friendly workplace with out it.

      1. complicated*

        I have to build up courage to speak up, but I think that is a good idea to address it.

    2. CatCat*

      I think you should research coping mechanisms and possibly talk to a counselor, who could help you find and practice coping with these things.

    3. Thlayli*

      I think if you cry the first time you get teased, very very few people would tease you a second time.

      1. complicated*

        I try to fight back the tears but my eyes are watery. Or tears run down one eye. I hope one day I can overcome the tearing and sensitivity.

  233. Would-be job Candidate*

    A recruiter emailed me on Tuesday asking to set up a phone screen for a position I had applied to. (This is an in-house recruiter at a well-regarded University). Actually she emailed me twice, eight minutes apart. I assumed she just lost her place in the list of people she needed to contact, or possibly one of the emails I received was meant for someone else. I noticed the email had a few errors, but just assumed that perhaps she was entry-level or not a native English speaker.

    In her email, she asked to speak with me for 30 minutes and provided times on Wednesday afternoon (the next day), Thursday afternoon, or all day Friday. I replied I would like to speak to her Friday and gave her two times. I also suggested that Thursday afternoon could work if I moved some things around.

    Wednesday came and went and I heard nothing back from her. Thursday morning, after not hearing back, I emailed her again and said that I could no longer change my Thursday afternoon schedule, but hoped I could speak to her during one of the two time slots on Friday.

    Crickets. No response.

    During my last job search an in-house recruiter ghosted me after I could not meet with the hiring manager the ONE time she offered. This had been a fairly inept recruiter who sent me two emails – one each about two different openings – and then later denied it when I mentioned to her that I was interested in speaking to her about both positions.

    So now I’m looking at this recruiter’s double email and sloppy wording and wondering if I am dealing with another inept recruiter, and if I missed an opportunity by not being available on Wednesday. It hard to imagine – it’s not entry-level, and kind of a specialized skill set. Should I try to track down her number and call her next week? Email her again? Or just forget it?

    1. CAA*

      I’d say to just forget it. There are many inept recruiters and you might have run into another one. Chasing her down is unlikely to help.

      It’s also possible that she got the flu or got fired or the hiring manager quit, or there’s been some other major shakeup that is affecting the position.

      If they really want to talk to you, they will get back in touch.

      1. Would-be job Candidate*

        Thanks, I was afraid of that. Why oh why are there so many inept recruiters? I have told both of my college-age children that they should consider becoming recruiters because it seems you can be bad at your job and still keep it while being paid very well. (Apologies to all the non-inept recruiters – you seem to be in the minority.)

        It really bothers me that my professional path is in the hands of someone who can’t – or won’t – follow through. I am imagining her seeing my emails and regarding me as a someone writing to her cold – not realizing I am responding to her earlier message.

  234. Hello It's Me*

    I feel useless and invisible at my job. I’m relatively inexperienced, so I don’t always know how office environments are supposed to be. But I can’t help but feel like crap where I am.

    I started my job last year, and I do work on several teams. I was engaged at the time. My wedding/honeymoon took place just 1 month in. Not a long time, but long enough that teammates should know who I am, right? My upcoming wedding was common knowledge. It’s the kind of thing that comes up in get-to-know-you conversations. Plus every Monday each team reviews upcoming PTO, so it came up then.

    Since marriage is a major life event, I thought I might find a card at my desk (or some form of acknowledgement) when I returned. Only 1 or 2 people briefly asked about the wedding. Most people didn’t even note my absence. I told myself that I shouldn’t expect anything being so new, and to suck it up, but it was hard not to feel lost in the shuffle after that. Should my teammates care about new girl’s wedding?

    The wedding was not the only time I felt left out. Soon after, one of my teams voted unanimously to give that month’s award chips (redeemable for food, corporate merch, gift cards, etc) to somebody who started during my honeymoon, as a welcome to the team. (Hello, there were TWO new team members!) For the work-sponsored team lunch, they accommodated everyone’s schedule but mine because they apparently forgot about the schedule conflict I mentioned in my response to the event invite. (There were plenty of times that week when we were all available.) So Everybody shrugged their shoulders, said, “Oh well” and I missed out. Nobody realized for weeks that I didn’t have invites to all my relevant meetings. I found out when I heard teammates discussing one that I had never heard of, but should have been attending regularly. I told Other New Girl (who also manages that scrum team) how invisible I felt. She talked to the group about being more inclusive. Not much changed.

    Being shy, I put photos and fun knick-knacks all over my desk to use as conversation starters (which had always worked before) but no luck. Showing off my cosplay skills for Halloween made no impact. Months in, people who I coordinate with regularly on other teams still don’t know my name. People have more than once usurped my break room table at lunch to play card games when I left to get my food from the microwave, staying silent as I gather my already-sitting-there drink and utensils to relocate to another table. Seriously, what is wrong with me???

    One team had us each do a personal profile to get to know each other’s personalities and work styles. When I shared mine, one guy seemed surprised that I HAD a personality (because my over-the-top Halloween costume, photos at my desk, and contributions to group chats apprently didn’t project any????) Another time in a weekly conference call for my other team, a remote contractor asked who I was, what I do, and when did I start. He didn’t recognize my name. I told him I had been doing X on the team and attending weekly meetings or the past 8 months.

    So then a few weeks ago, a teammate got married. Someone pooled money for gifts. Everyone signed the card. I get it. He has been there for a few years. Everybody knows him. But when another guy said, “I wish I worked here when I got married! I would have gotten some cool gifts!” I uncharacteristically blurted out, “I DID work here when I got married and nobody even said anything.” Cue everyone just switching to a new topic, as if my remark never happened. Feeling so insignificant is a huge reason why I am determined to find work somewhere else.

    Am I justified or selfish for expecting more acknowledgement from my coworkers? (My husband thinks my teammates are being unfair, but he is highly biased.) What is fair to expect when I go someplace else?

    1. copy run start*

      Wow. I’d leave too. Based on what you’ve said it does seem like there’s a huge disconnect, for whatever reason. It sounds like you’ve been there far too long for people to forget your name. Humans are social creatures and to be frozen out like that is deeply painful. If they can’t recognize and acknowledge your basic existence, it’s time to go. I guarantee you there’s a better workplace out there. It may take some effort to find though. Stay strong and remember that these people will be a distant memory soon.

    2. Caledonia*

      That sounds horrible. Get out when you can. I’m sorry, I remember only too well being in a job where I didn’t fit (the work itself was terrible too) and it is miserable.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Well, some work places are like this. Certain people get more support, including cards/gifts/etc for significant events. At my workplace, it is a popularity contest. My brother was crushed to death in a car accident- nothing. A popular coworker had a car accident on the way to work with no one hurt, my coworkers were demanding money from me for flowers and a gift.

    4. London Calling*

      Facing the same sort of problem with my department – being left out of conversations, ignored, looked through – it seems that where I work they are more bothered about the work you do (at which I’m stellar, may I say) than the fact that there is a person behind it. It’s the sort of situation that makes you think ‘Is it me? am I actually so deeply and inherently dislikeable that people can’t bear to engage with me?’ and it’s hard not to take personally rather than see it as as rude and thoughtless colleagues, but either way it demonstrates that you aren’t valued for anything but what you do. I don’t know what your solution is but I’m starting a serious job hunt.

    5. WellRed*

      There’s a lot here, so I will just respond to a few things. We had a new coworker get married shortly after starting. No, we didn’t get her anything (maybe we should have, not my call). Also, you say you work on several teams, but mention teammates. I feel we often see letters here about people who get overlooked, etc because they aren’t clearly on a team (ie, no one is in “charge” of organizing a card for you). Could this be happening to you? Finally, and I know it can be awkward, but what’s to stop you from saying hello. What are you playing? Etc, when you are at the microwave and everyone goes all silent?

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah I think being on a few different teams is contributing to the issue. If you were dedicated to one specific team they would probably make more of an effort.

        But the lunch thing is really weird and creepy. That sounds like bullying to me. The only explanation I can come up with is that you somehow pissed them all off big time at some point and they all decided to give you the silent treatment. Without bothering to let you know that you’d upset them.

        Have you spoken to your manager about it at all?

        Honestly it sounds so awful that if I were you I’d be job searching like crazy. So sorry you’re going through this.

    6. Friday*

      They are horrible and you are definitely not overreacting. I’m sorry you are going through this! I understand – over the course of a year, three babies were born in my dept and the other two had baby showers while my babe received absolutely nothing. But even with that burn, I’m still not frozen out of basic human interaction and friendliness. I wish you the best of luck in finding a new job!!

  235. Lola*

    Hey everyone- Looking for advice, maybe some of you have experienced this before. I have a 2nd interview coming up for an outreach position at a state agency. I’ve been told it will be 90 minutes. The first half hour will be a “health education materials exercise” using a computer. This job will have presentations so I’m thinking I’ll have 30 minutes to put one together in those 30 minutes and then present it. Has anyone had an interview like this before? How did you approach it? How did you prepare for an impromptu presentation?

    I’m so nervous not knowing what exactly this will be!

  236. Painfully broke*

    Does anyone out there witch chronic pain have any tips when it comes to job hunting?

    I developed chronic pain about five years ago but it has gotten MUCH worse in the past two years. I have been asked to leave two jobs due to my number of sick leaves. With one of those jobs I worked one shift and then ended up in bed with extreme pain in my legs, spine, back, neck, and arms. Although I was thankful that I did not also get a headache, I was forced to call in sick for the rest of my first week and was let go, which I don’t blame that workplace for at all! As there is no obvious reason for my pain my doctor has determined that it is most likely either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome, because yes, on top of nearly always being in pain I am also tired a majority of the time. Unfortunately, due to the stress on the healthcare system in my area it’s going to take quite a while to get an actual diagnosis. I have been doing my best to keep a pain journal and try to pin down my triggers, but although I am making progress I still usually have about four days a week where I have to choose between taking a shower or doing the dishes because my body can not handle both.

    I have been without a job for over a year trying to figure this out and I really need to start working again before all of my savings are all gone. There are a few jobs that I think I can do, but when should I bring up the fact that I have chronic pain? I’m pretty scared to do it because last time I tried to approach a manager about it I was “laid off” the next week. Any tips on when or how I should approach this? I would love to wait until I’m there for a while to show how great I am as an employee before letting them know hat I have health problems, but it just isn’t possible when it’s something that effects me nearly everyday.

      1. Painfully broke*

        I’m in the process but I have to see a specialist and have them do their tests and get them to fill out paper work, and that could take up to 6 more months. Until I can get to that point the most I can get on assistance is $700 a month which isn’t really enough to live off of. I also would like to be able to do something with my life. It’s hard because I’m only in my early 20s and my pain is really messing up my life. Even my degree is pretty much useless because all of the jobs I could do with it are impossible with pain. I guess I’m still a bit in the denial stage and hoping that others might have better experiences that they could share.

        1. Ali G*

          I really think you need to prioritize a diagnosis so that you can get the help you need. You don’t have to stay on disability forever, but just as long as it takes to get your pain under control.
          I suffer from chronic nerve pain in my leg and I know how awful it can be. But getting a diagnosis (I have neurofibromatosis) and pain meds has helped immensely.
          Also have you tried diet changes? The anti-inflammatory diet can do wonders for chronic pain.
          Good luck to you – I hope you can find some relief.

    2. copy run start*

      Is working from home a possibility? I know someone who takes sales (think TV infomercial) and customer service calls online. It’s odd hours and 1099 (so you’re not an employee), but from what I know you can schedule yourself whenever 24/7, and physically all you need to do is, sit, talk and operate a PC. This person sets their schedule for a few hours, then gives themselves an hour or two “off” and then goes “on” again for more hours. I wonder if that might be easier than trying to do a 9-5 job.

      I hope you get a diagnosis soon, or better yet… a cure.

  237. SophieChotek*

    Any Development Associates/Fundraising? There is a non-profit I am interested in working for and the position looks like a decent/good fit – except the job description does mention “significant amount of time” will be on identifying potential/prospective donors through “discovery calling” -…which I take to mean cold calls — but it also discusses independent research and various projects also

    I am sure it is different for every job, but do you think this would mean like cold calls? All day long for hours on end? (It seems like if it was truly a “call center” where you just called name after name, it might say that, but I don’t know…)

    Or more specific, in-depth calls to specific people that you/someone else has researched?

    I have to do some cold calls in my current job — and I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT…I am by nature a little shy and have trouble networking/reaching out to people I don’t know.

    That said, I think I would do better “selling” something if it was a cause/mission I believed in – not trying to sell expensive chocolate teapots and rice sculptures I wouoldn’t keep if you gave them to me for free.

    Any thoughts? Or experiences?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      In the organizations I’ve worked in/with, typically “cold calling” is not calling random strangers, but a more curated process. For example, looking at lists of past donors who haven’t given in the last two years and calling them to find out why they stopped and if they’d consider donating again. Or working with board members to identify corporate partners. You usually have an in, and the person you’re calling usually has given some indication that they want to be connected to your organization.

      There are some organizations that buy donor lists, so it’s possible that you would be doing actual cold calls with no former connection to the person. I just think the ROI on that would have to be so low as to not make it worth doing. Email or direct mail maybe but phone calls no.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks. I am just trying to figure out if its worth my time to apply/write a cover letter, etc. if it’s a job i know I would hate/would not take. I think i could deal with more “curated” lists (like you wrote, having an “in”) but I still don’t know if I would want to do this 40 hours a week. (Unless it was just a way to get into the company and paid okay – as this is a non-profit I’d consider working for long-term) if that were possible.

  238. Nacho*

    I think I fucked up pretty badly this week. I recently bought a new condo, which meant a new bus route. Unlike my previous route, the bus I usually take no longer comes on Sunday, which doubles my commute home. My manager was talking to me about moving my shift back 15 minutes on Sundays so I could take an earlier, much shorter, bus, which would have been great. Then out of nowhere, Monday Morning she puts a paper in front of me asking me to confirm that I would be ok with moving my shift back 30 minutes all 5 days, not just 15 on Sunday. And I, like an idiot, signed it without bothering to check the bus schedule. Turns out the new schedule isn’t actually that great for me, and the old one was better even with Sunday. Manager says they basically never do shift swaps like this and it was almost impossible to get the first one done, so now I look super flakey for asking them to change it back, and I probably wasted a whole bunch of office capital on nothing.

    Any suggestions beyond sucking it up and keeping my new schedule when they tell me they can’t change it back?

  239. Bosch*

    Bit of an awkward job searching situation:

    Close co-worker who I used to supervise before she was promoted to the same pay grade as me at Current Company asked me back in January if I would be willing to be a reference for her now that she was beginning to search again, and I agreed enthusiastically. In passing yesterday, she mentioned that she had been invited to do a phone interview with Company X. We interact a lot with Company X, but it’s a bit of an unusual pivot, and no one from our division in the ten years I’ve worked at Current Company has made that particular move. It’s so unusual, in fact, that I thought **I** was the only one considering it — I was quietly working on a resume and cover letter to submit to Company X in the next few weeks, but wasn’t planning to put it out there quite yet that I was starting a search too.

    I steered the conversation on to something else and didn’t mention that I was planning to apply there too, but now have a flood of questions:

    1. Should I tell her that I probably can’t serve as an impartial reference in this case? Should I tell her why?
    2. Since Company X is relatively small, two applications from candidates with very similar work histories and the same current employer would definitely be noticed, and might raise some eyebrows. I can’t imagine that a potential interviewer would bring it up, but in the event that I’m also invited to interview, should I in any way acknowledge that I know I’m not the only candidate from Current Company?
    3. There are multiple openings for the same position, so it’s plausible that I could be offered an interview after my co-worker accepts a position there. If I haven’t said anything to her by then, at what point should I disclose it to avoid awkwardness?
    4. At least one of my references will likely be one of hers, too. How should I approach that with the referee if the time comes and I’m asked to provide contact info for them?
    5. What else am I missing? If you were the hiring manager and you came across this situation, what thoughts would go through your head and what would you want the candidates to do?

    To be clear, she’s a great employee, we have a great working relationship and a shared friend group, and from all the research I’ve been doing on Company X lately, I think she’d be a good fit there — best case scenario in my opinion, if she doesn’t find something even better, would be for both of us to start there and continue having a productive work relationship in our new roles. Just not sure how to get there without seeming like crazy stalker lady who saw her do something and got an idea…

  240. RoadsGirl*

    This is a question that came up in a team meeting the other day: We had recently been sent out a staff satisfaction and such survey over Google forms. One teammate mentioned how she refrained from answering it because she said, even though it was “anonymous”, she was concerned if she said something wrong her answer would be traced back to her.

    So, just how anonymous are surveys in that form?

    1. RemoteDreams*

      As far as I’m aware from when I used one, if you don’t have a place to enter the name, it’s not possible to figure out who entered it. And I needed people’s names, haha, I had to match up the people who filled it out wrong.

      But honestly, I’m pretty paranoid like your coworker, so I probably wouldn’t fill it out anyway.

    2. copy run start*

      I would never say anything I wasn’t willing to attach my name to on an office survey.

      Yes, it may be technically anonymous, but you don’t know how many of your coworkers actually replied or what they said. Sometimes it’s easy to guess who wrote what based on the writing style or if there’s an outlier. Someone who’s obviously unhappy would probably give lower ratings.

    3. Jupiter2*

      It is possible to trace your answers back to you. Usually those surveys are handled by 3rd party companies that specialize in such things. Delay filling out the survey and you will receive an email asking you to please complete it. The survey company has the necessary information needed to match answers with people. One would hope that both companies are ethical enough to not exchange this information unless there is a dire need, such as threatening language, etc. I suppose reputation protection would be a very strong reason for the survey company to avoid sharing the information even if pressured to do so.

  241. VictorianCowgirl*

    Hi, have I missed the boat? I’m wondering if anyone else with perfume -triggered migraines has ever come across co-workers who refuse to stop wearing strong perfume, even in the face of manager requests? Management isn’t willing to make it a policy though. Does a person basically just quit at this point? I was in the bathroom vomiting with a severe migraine today but couldn’t go home because I was scolded for it last time. Any advice?

      1. VictorianCowgirl*

        Well I don’t have an ADA lawyer or diagnosis. I think that might have to be my next step. We are a small company of only 9 people.

        1. WellRed*

          Doez ADA apply to such a small company? Have you spoken directly to coworker and been specific? Though, frankly, she sounds sucky.

          1. VictorianCowgirl*

            Hi, I need to look into the ADA laws. I have spoken with her, very polite, kind of “I’m so sorry I’m having this problem, can you help me” approach, and she agreed to stop but didn’t stop. So mgmt talked to her and she’s basically gaslighting saying she’s not wearing any. They’re uncomfortable going any further. She is sucky, a bully, but protected by mgmt. I guess the writing is on the wall, I just really love my job otherwise and in this town will probably take a pay cut at another firm.

    2. Cercis*

      Wish I had advice for you. I find that many people think it’s attention seeking when you complain about scents. And I’ve never figured out how to get the point across in a way that is understood.

      1. VictorianCowgirl*

        We are a tiny company with no HR, and I don’t have an ADA diagnosis although I do have migraine diagnosis. They are basically realizing that they have a team member who willingly makes others sick, however that person is a big money maker for them. I’m very reliable and dependable but not as skilled. So they’re having to choose between us. In the meantime I’m sick every day at work and it’s just me paying the bills, you know? I will look into ADA protection.

        1. Triplestep*

          I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I design offices and workspaces for a living, often having performed this role in-house for large companies. So I’m not sure what accommodations your company would have to make for you given the size, but I have had to create secluded workstations for people who have fragrance sensitivities on more than one occasion. So definitely pursue this.

          Also, it’s been discussed here in the past that fragrances can often stay on clothing, even after the clothing has been washed. Your co-worker may not be re-applying, but she’s living in a home where the fragrance lingers and she’s still bringing it with her to work on her clothing. Or she possibly *is* re-applying because, yes … people often misunderstand fragrance sensitivities and/or are inconsiderate.

          Good luck!

          1. VictorianCowgirl*

            Yes I believe she’s reapplying because I can smell her two cubicles away. She has been a bully since the day she started here, so I don’t think she’s making any honest mistakes. She’s a “rules don’t apply to me” person and mgmt enables her. I really am not too sensitive for lightly used scents but once her and another co-worker found out that perfumes can trigger migraines for me they both started coming in drenched in perfume, and one of them even sprayed her perfume in the cubicle next to mine. This has caused me to be more sensitive to perfume I think now. I simply can’t get away from it and let my system calm down. I’m just hoping for an enforced scent-free policy. Not at the level of what deodorant people can use, just “can I smell you more than a foot away” because sometimes we go to each other’s computers to work on projects together.

      2. EJ*

        LOL. She’s a classic over-sharer, we always get thorough summaries of her gynecologist appointments. If only there was a mute button in real life…

  243. buttercup*

    What do you do regarding references when your current job is the most relevant job experience you have to the jobs you are applying for. I have 2 full years of job experience – the first was a bunch of short-term contracts (for which I have 3 references), and my current job is my first salaried job ever.

    1. Alianora*

      I suppose it depends whether you care or not that your current boss knows you’re job searching. Pretty normal for people not to give their current workplace as a reference, so I don’t think it’d be a huge problem if you just used the references you have now. But you know more about your industry than I do.

      Some people use current coworkers as references, but I’d be really careful who you asked. I had a coworker tell me and another coworker that he’d gotten a job offer but wasn’t sure if he was going to take it, and the other coworker told our manager as soon as he got the chance.

  244. aninnymouse*

    I applied to a staffing agency that supposedly “hires anybody”. They made me take this test asking me if I used meth today and if I would fake a work related injury. Then the test abruptly shut down and told me to reapply in 6 months. When I asked to talk to an agent all I was told to apply in 6 months. Is it dumb for me to be suspicious about this or should I just ignore this place and keep applying to other places?

    1. AeroEngineer*

      Uh, I would run the other way and not look back. That is just suspicious, and personally I wouldn’t waste any more time with them.

  245. Lola*

    So I wasn’t entirely sure whether to post this in the work thread or the general open thread, but I ended up going with this one. It is technically work, even though none of us are getting paid, and Alison has run letters about volunteers before. So –

    I’m on a committee organizing this year’s Pride festival for my city. There are about twelve other members, including a woman I’ll call Bianca. Bianca is disabled (uses a mobility scooter) and one of the reasons she’s on the committee in the first place is because the organizers wanted a disability advocate to weigh in on the festival. There are . . . problems with Bianca.

    Problem the first: she’s really loud. Like, REALLY loud. Like, “her every word is spoken at top volume” loud. I’ve sat next to her a couple of times, and both times I ended up with a raging headache in under fifteen minutes because it felt like she was screaming in my ear. I think part of this might be down to her being hard of hearing, but another part is that she just plain likes to be the loudest voice in the room, For example . . .

    Problem the second: she talks over people, and does it a LOT. In our first meeting, another member (I’ll call her Suzie) was trying to discuss something, and it went like this (it’s hard to convey in text, but imagine Bianca getting louder and more aggressive with each interruption):

    Suzie: I called X organization and the receptionist told me –
    Bianca: BUT DID YOU SPECIFICALLY ASK TO SPEAK WITH MR. Y?
    Suzie: As I was saying, I called the organization –
    Bianca: BUT DID YOU SPECIFICALLY ASK TO SPEAK WITH MR. Y?
    Suzie: The receptionist said –
    Bianca: BUT DID YOU SPECIFICALLY ASK TO SPEAK WITH MR. Y? YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR HIM SPECIFICALLY.

    Suzie eventually gave up on finishing her sentence, and skipped the next meeting entirely. I don’t blame her.

    At the next meeting, the committee chair announced that we were going to be using Robert’s Rules, i.e. taking down the names of everyone who had something to say and then go down the list and give each person a turn. Bianca interjected at this point to say that she had short-term memory loss due to brain damage, and therefore she HAD to speak as soon as she thought of something, or else she’d forget. And also she couldn’t take notes to remind herself because she has arthritis, so letting her speak whenever she wanted to was the only solution. The chair sort of weakly said that this would be fine, since we want the committee to be accessible.

    Folks, I’m reaching the end of my rope. I do genuinely want to be on this committee because I care about the organization, but Bianca is just . . . impossible, and I don’t know how to shut her down. I don’t even really have the authority to shut her down, but I also don’t know how to get the chair to do anything. After all, no one wants to be the one who says “no, we can’t provide that accomodation,” but there’s a difference between accomodation and just being a loud, pushy jerk, and Bianca crossed that line several miles ago. I hate the idea of her pushing out anyone who can’t deal with her, but I also don’t want to fight this battle by myself.

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Speak to the chair one-on-one and say that while accommodations need to be made to keep Bianca included in the process, she is disrupting and monopolizing what is supposed to be something collaborative. You’re probably not the only one that thinks this. If the people in charge are unwilling to change, however, you may just need to move on or learn to deal with this person.

  246. Jupiter2*

    I’m in a bit of a pickle and I’m hoping for some ideas on how to handle it, either fix it or learn to look at it in a more positive light.

    There are two kinds of workers in my section. Teapot Fixers, like me, are experts, with years of teapot knowledge and experience. The job is 40-60 hours/week, 1st shift and subject to be called in at any time to fix broken teapots. The second type, Teapot Testers, have set schedules and are not subject to being called back in, 70+ hours/week. The position is incredibly boring and requires in-depth training.

    We are short of Teapot Testers. Testers are worked to the point of exhaustion and shamed if they request time off. New-hires immediately figure out that Tester doesn’t fit their college degree. Some thought they were hired to do something else, such as Teapot Design, but find themselves in the Tester job after reporting to work and are told they must do this job or leave the company. All are searching for new jobs. Three senior Testers were denied internal transfers and left the company, abandoning rare lucrative retirement benefits.

    Management’s solution is to force Fixers to also become Testers. Despite our misgivings about completing our own work, we began our Tester training.

    Yesterday our combo Tester/Fixer supervisor called a meeting with us Fixers to say he managed to convince upper management that Fixers should not be required to become Testers because the jobs are incompatible and would make it extremely hard to accomplish Fixer work. Then he looks at me and says, “Except for you, Jupiter2. You still have to become a Tester.”

    My particular brand of teapots has fewer Testers than other brands because management chose to not put as much emphasis on tricking new-hires into that brand of Teapot Testers, even though 2 of the 3 senior Testers who left were assigned to this brand. Now, management’s tits are in a ringer and they are left with…me.

    When Fixers were all treated with the same rules, I didn’t feel so taken advantage of. Now, everyone else is off the hook and I’m singled out. I am expected to carry both jobs. My supervisor tells me that when they have enough trained Testers, I will be moved to Tester Backup. Having seen this type of placation used before, I am well aware that this “backup” situation will never happen. Even if it does, I still don’t want it. I will end up working all week as Fixer and every weekend as Tester.

    Options are limited. I am a senior employee with over 30 years experience. At 50+, new employment is problematic as well as leaving behind those “lucrative retirement benefits” mentioned above.

    So, here’s my plan along with some questions.

    Meet with my supervisor and his boss.
    Clarify management agrees that Fixers should not be Testers.
    State that I understand the situation and I’m willing to help out short term.
    Clarify short/long term plans to move me out of the situation they are putting me in and how long will it take.
    Discuss my priorities in situation A, B, etc.
    Revisit in 3 months to discuss plan progress.

    What if he refuses to totally remove me from the Tester position?
    Should I ask for a salary review at the 3 month mark given that I’m the only fixer who has to be a Tester?
    Being a Tester could totally remove me from consideration of other jobs, including promotions, within the company. Is it fair to address this with my management?

    1. HA2*

      Doesn’t seem like there’s too much you can do if they continue to force you to be a Tester. Sounds like it’s a dead-end job, no advancement prospects, why would anyone want to do it?

      You can request a lot of things that, if given to you, make the job reasonable. You can ask for a timetable for getting yourself out of the tester business, you can ask for a salary bump given that you’re taking on work nobody else is willing/able to do, you can ask for promotions and so on. If they’re reasonable, they’ll give you one or more of those. Based on how they’ve treating the Tester position, it sounds like they’re not.

      If they don’t give you those things, you really have only three options:
      1) Leave, find another job. (If it’s tough at your age, all the more reason to start looking early.) (Or early retirement.)
      2) Don’t leave, but refuse to commit to the Tester job like they want you to. Just Say No if they ask you to work 70-hour weeks, prioritize your Fixer duties (with the consequence that Tester stuff sometimes doesn’t get done – tough shit for them). This burns bridges. How likely you are to get away with this without being fired depends on how indispensable you are in your Fixer role and how desperate they are for Testers, even half-assing ones.
      3) Become a Tester like they want you to and suck it up until retirement benefits.

      Sorry this is happening to you. Sounds like a bad situation with no good answers on your side if management keeps being bad.

      1. Jupiter2*

        Thank you for the reply HA2! I’ve already got my resume out there. Oddly enough, I’m getting lots of bites from insurance companies, of all things. I thought about doing the interview and trying for a job offer just so I have some leverage but decided against it. It would be unfair to waste the insurance company’s time. I think I would be a horrible insurance salesperson.

        At this point, I am unclear as to how to handle both jobs at the same time. If the fixer or tester job doesn’t get done, the facility can’t operate. The duties can be exclusionary (can’t do one if I’m doing the other, yet both must be done), at times to a high degree. Before I was singled out and we were all in the same boat, I asked specific questions as to how this will work. Management had no answers. In my meeting, my intent is to lay out a guide as to how to handle certain situations. It’s the only way I know to protect myself from working outrageous hours.

        1. Wheezyweasel*

          Not that this is applicable to your situation, but I think those insurance companies are biting every resume that’s out there. I went to a casual interview for one and they want you to fund your own agency, basically. Need $50k of accessible cash before they’ll ‘let’ you sell under the company name. I was like…..’isn’t that the opposite of a job, which would pay *me* 50k?’

  247. working abroad*

    Happy weekend everyone! I’m getting ready to apply for jobs over the next few weeks and, as I’ll be changing career paths completely, am wondering how I should handle it. Most of my work experience has been in TV production (producing roles, specializing in culinary/food TV) and I freelance, so the length of my gigs vary from 1 day to 5 months. I love the variety and opportunity to travel that comes with my job, but as I get older (I’m 28) I want more stability. I want to be able to set up retirement and savings, and not have to worry about when and where my next job will come from. I feel like I’m at a now-or-never moment where, if I’m going to make a change I should do it now.

    That being said, how will it look to hiring managers to have someone with no “business” experience apply for a role in HR, for example? I have my Master’s in Sport Management, and had to learn about everything that comes with a typical Management degree (HR, marketing, contract law, etc.) In my cover letter should I just spell out the reasons I listed above?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      It’s perfectly reasonable to want stability and a steady place to grow. I’d be honest about that. You loved where you were, you learned a lot, but this is what you need and you’ve got the skills to serve you. Good luck!

  248. JennyLou*

    I recently came across a job that I’d love (but am not qualified for so I’ll just dream about it.) They are using a recruiting agency, which is unusual for my industry, and as I was looking at the website I realized this agency posts many of my dream jobs, some of which I would have been qualified for when they were searching. Is there any way to get my resume in front of them as a “hey, keep me in mind for the next great thing” kind of thing or so I just keep watching as things open up? I have no idea how recruiters work and I didn’t see a job seekers section on their website.

    1. AudreyParker*

      I am not at all an expert on this, so coming from the POV of a (seemingly) eternal job seeker who spends a lot of time reading about how to find jobs: I don’t think it would be weird to try to contact one of the recruiters there and just ask how you might get on their radar. They would probably loooove to add someone to their pool, even if there is nothing immediate, and if you aren’t an appropriate candidate, I’m guessing they’d let you know. If there aren’t any names on the agency site, you might check LinkedIn – in fact, if you found someone there that sounded good, you could even try to connect with them there and explain your interest in your invitation to connect. Finding a human on LI might also give you insight into which recruiter was most appropriate for you to contact (assuming more than one is available).

  249. Alinea*

    Is there a good plagiarism checker out there I can use? Some of them look so…1992/like they’d give my computer with cholera.
    —
    If you’re interested: So I’m helping a friend of a friend out by reading an essay she’s working on and, long story short, I’m pretty sure it would not pass a plagiarism scan. I don’t believe she knowingly did this; I just don’t think she knows how to interpret ideas and make them her own. My friend wants me to help her friend out because she’s ESL and is an engineering major and just needs to.

    1. Alinea*

      Crap, I hit submit too early. Anyway, what I was saying was, as an engineering major she said only needs a few writing classes. I’ve already had a convo with friend and friend of friend that you cannot plagiarize. Ever. Even on accident.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Does the university itself have a plagiarism checker? Both of the ones I attended had sites where I could just feed a paper in to check, though it might be hidden in like a writing center or another part of the university. The good ones like TurnItIn are usually quite expensive, and usually there is some sort of fee to use the other decent ones.

        We had a lot of plagiarism like the type you are saying during my masters (they all got caught since we used TurnItIn) where some students didn’t seem to really know what plagiarism was. It seems that some universities in some countries did not hold the students to a high level of non-plagiarism. It took two students almost getting expelled to realize how important the issue was, even though it had been explained a multitude of times.

        I personally think that engineers should be able to write to the level of a coherent non-plagarized/ can-get-the-point-across-and-argue-said-point paper or report. Especially while still in education, as while perhaps we are not writing eye catching literature, we still have to write tons of reports, maybe scientific articles etc. Interpreting ideas is just as important for engineers as for other disciplines. :) Having written papers and reports in several different languages, I would say ESL would cause more issues with grammar and vocab more so than the content/plagiarism.

      2. Constantly Braining*

        The university I attend uses “Turnitin”. I don’t know if it’s available for public use, but it’s worth looking into.

        1. Wheezyweasel*

          I manage the plagiarism software license for a university. None of the major companies sell directly to students anymore. Papers have to be submitted through the school’s integration. The software is usually tied into to the Learning Management System software – those major vendors are BlackBoard, Canvas, Moodle, Desire2Learn, Schoology, Sakai and many others. It’s possible there is a web interface for TurnItIn that’s not within the LMS system for places like the writing center, as mentioned. But it’s almost always under the control of a University office like central IT, the Office/Center for Teaching and Learning, etc.

          1. Wheezyweasel*

            I can’t speak for all universities or programs, but it’s my experience that many professors have a ‘draft’ assignment where students can submit their essay and get a plagiarism score returned within 24 hours. This allows them to correct their errors and improve their results. Some professors only allow for a single submission and the results will cause the student some type of action. It may be a meeting with the student conduct office to discuss why plagiarism is a concern and how to correctly cite material and a few ‘remedial’ assignments to ensure they get the concept. Or if it’s a paper submitted for a conference or scholarly journal, the consequences for plagiarism might be more extreme including suspension or expulsion. It really depends on the school and the circumstance.

  250. Computer says no*

    Update for those who read last time. Things aren’t as bad as I thought they would be. He got a suspended sentence, and I am seeing him today as I still have a lot of his things. He lost his job ofc so now he’s starting from scratch. He is deeply apologetic for his crime and has owned it and that he needs help from professionals. This is good. Things will never be the same but I want to keep in touch with him so he doesn’t feel completely abandoned plus our lives are so entwined I want to make sure he is taking this second chance to redo his life. He is living at his mum’s now.

    1. nep*

      So glad to hear it’s less bleak than expected. Thanks for the update. Wishing you all the best.

  251. working abroad*

    How can I positively frame my slavish devotion to my career in a cover letter? I’ve always had extreme company loyalty in every job I’ve held, maybe because I’ve been lucky enough to always work for great places. I’m also ambivalent about getting married and know I don’t want children (and have taken measures to ensure I don’t have them.) I want to be married to my career. I feel like these are all good things as long as I have a healthy mentality about them, but realize they can sound extreme. How can I frame them as a positive attribute?

    1. Colette*

      I don’t think you can, actually. When I read what you wrote, I think “overinvested in work” and wonder how you’d treat people who are married or have children.

      There’s nothing wrong with working hard or loving your job – those are good things – but taken too far, it makes me wonder what else you have going on in your life. What would happen if you couldn’t work (health problems, layoffs, etc.)?

      1. working abroad*

        Interesting perspective. I’ve just always loved to work and derive great pleasure from it. It gives me a sense of purpose. I am trying to develop other hobbies and habits outside of work that give me the same joy. I’ve taken up drum lessons. jogging, learning coding, etc. However, my primary goal is to succeed in my career and I’m very motivated to do so. If I couldn’t physically go to a work place, I’d work remotely. I’m actually learning coding and getting TEFL-certified so I can do that very thing in case of an emergency or illness.

  252. Wrench Turner*

    My new boss decided that Saturday at 7:30 am was a perfectly good and normal time to call for a chat to confirm my start time Monday. This is not off to a good start…

  253. Database Geek*

    I’m enjoying my new job but I sort of feel like they hired me to solve an immediate problem without having solid ideas for longer term goal. I mean okay the immediate problem is obvious and needs to be done, but other than that? I’m not sure and I’m not sure how to ask or what to ask without giving a bad impression? From a conversation I had with my direct supervisor it sounds like the person I interviewed with expected me to remember the conversation I had during the interview and the answer to my “what are the goals for the first 30/60/90″ days” question – and unfortunately I don’t remember because honestly I didn’t feel like the interview went well/it was the first interview and I was NOT expecting them to hire me right after that interview. So…. I feel like I need to reask that question but is there a way to ask it without being obvious I don’t remember the original answer? I could still be over thinking this and the original answer wasn’t as complete as it could have been anyway…

    1. Alianora*

      “Can we discuss goals for the future? I’d like to get a more detailed picture and take some notes, now that I’ve gotten a feel for our short-term goals.”

      Do you remember anything about what they said, or do you have an idea of the big picture? It’s probably best not to try to pretend you remember exactly what was said. You can admit, “I don’t feel like I got the clearest image of what I’ll be doing in the long term.”

      But I think it actually would make a lot of sense to have that conversation even if you did remember the interview verbatim. You’ve actually worked at the job and now you have a new perspective on it. And it sounds like your direct supervisor isn’t the same person who interviewed you, so it’s good to hear their own words, too.

      1. Database Geek*

        Thanks Alianora! I do actually have some idea of the big picture… just not all the details and I’m wondering if I missed something in the interview? but maybe I didn’t! But your suggested ways to ask questions is a good one. The person I interviewed with (who answered the 30/60/90 days question) is the VP of the department so my direct supervisor’s boss. I’ve talked with them a bit but we need to talk again for sure. However there is a department meeting coming up soon so I plan to listen and ask some questions then too.

  254. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

    Competing job offer dilemma:

    So I’m currently working on a short-term contract, which at this time is set to end on the 29th of March. The other day I got an email from a company that had offered me a job then ghosted me last year after telling me that there was a delay with the start date offering me the job again. I can’t decide whether I should take it or not, based on:

    Pros:
    – better money
    – same city as my husband
    – potentially interesting project
    – some of my industry friends might be working on it

    Cons:
    – only three months (and current company says they will have work for at least that long)
    – I’m currently on an equally cool project
    – I’m one of the higher performers at my current job (which may lead to more work)
    – I’ve spent months doing the crappy preparatory work at my current job, and we are only just now getting to the cool stuff
    – other company doesn’t have a great reputation in the industry (and they have already irritated me by ghosting me last year)
    – with a few exceptions I like the people I’m working with now, and there is a general expectation that some of the more irritating people will not have their contracts renewed

    The sticking point is really that while it would be lovely to be with my husband, instead of being in separate cities, after a year of being unemployed I am leery of leaving a job where I am considered a valuable staff member. It sucks to be apart but it’s also something that we have had to deal with on and off ever since we first met, so we are used to it. The better money is also tempting but it’s not such a huge difference that it is impossible to turn down, and much of that would be eaten up by the higher cost of transportation in the other city (and my current company pays for my transportation costs).

    How to decide? I don’t think I have ever in my life had two competing job offers!

    1. WellRed*

      I’d stick with current job. The other company already has red flags and can only guarantee 3 months.

    2. AudreyParker*

      From what you’ve written, it sounds like you’re better off staying where you are. It’s easy to want to overlook the flakiness and poor reputation of the other company, but especially when best case scenario (as far as you know) is that you’d have 3 months there and then possibly be searching again, possibly need to be in a different city again, it could end up being disruptive and not much else. You’re currently happy with work, see potential to extend (assuming you mean contract will be extended to at least the end of June), and building relationships & experience that may help you find a longer term role in a more preferable location, which is nothing to sneeze at. I’m sure it’s frustrating to have to be in separate cities, but (to me) it doesn’t sound like this would be the best fix…

    3. Wheezyweasel*

      Anyone that ghosts me gets put into my permanent Burn Book, and that’s even ghosting me after an interview. These folks ghosted you on an *offer*. I’m in favor of letting them find someone else and keeping your strong reputation at the your current employer.

  255. Exhausted Trope*

    I’m thick in job hunting mode since resigning from an uber-dysfunctional department where I was the office manager. Thinking back over positions I’ve held, I’m noticing that many involved me becoming the “fixer” of the department but I don’t know why. I blame my mania for organization and my process-improvement skills that not to toot my own horn, are considerable. It seems that I’m constantly called upon to straighten out everything that my predecessors have bungled and to develop and enact new procedures for every inefficiency.
    I desperately need advice on how to avoid such positions in the future. Is there a good way to suss this out in interviews?

    1. AudreyParker*

      As someone who also has a compulsion towards process-improvement and aversion to inefficiency, I feel your pain. For me, I find I generally bring it on myself, and it seems like it’s more unusual to find people who will actually do this than one would think, so not surprising that you would become the go-to. I actually enjoy it most of the time (possibly because I haven’t tended to enjoy the things that actually fall under my job description, plus ends up making my life easier in the long run) – are you sure it’s not just the environments or people that make you dislike being a “fixer”? And are you doing it unasked then finding it becomes your problem, or do they spring it on you as part of your job description and then make it a significant focus because you’re so effective despite the fact you’d rather be doing something else? It may help to figure out why you want to avoid it if you are actually good at it and it would otherwise be seen as a “strength,” as maybe there are other details to consider.

      Otherwise, I’m guessing there’s no way to completely avoid being asked to straighten stuff out if you land somewhere and discover issues, unless you’re in a position to either push back (i.e. no time for this, not under my purview) or delegate. If you are generally in office manager-type positions, perhaps targeting roles that have more specific content could help, or even EA roles – I find admins & office managers often end up being the catch-all role for things no one else has time for but which help things run better overall. You could also try asking what the greatest needs are in the department at the moment, if there’s any changes they’d be looking to the next person to implement, or how much of the job is doing [insert specific things you want to do here]. Good luck! I know it can be tough to escape from uber-dysfunctional and feel positive about future positions…

  256. Joanne*

    What are some workplace advice people had wish they’d gotten earlier? After I left my previous position, I’m still with the same agency but in a different component (USCG). I’m trying to not make the same mistakes I made there, such as having documents being completed on time or before deadlines but because they’re still going through security checks and whatnot, I’m doing exercises to get me familiar with the work they do and back in the habit of researching and writing about the facility.

    Also, what are some good places for business casual clothing that won’t cost too much but still look professional? I’ve looked at places such as White House Black Market and Nordstrom, but those tend to be slightly more expensive.

    1. AudreyParker*

      re: business casual, check out LOFT – they tend to have reasonable options, great sales, and a variety of sizes, though some seasons are better than others. It’s really the only place I’ve had much success when trying to upgrade my “t-shirt & jeans” look a tad. Sometimes Kohls comes through, it’s hit or miss for me.

      1. Sally*

        Gap, Banana Republic, JCrew have some business casual clothes like slacks, shirts, and sweaters. Try online factory store it has better prices. Invest in a few pieces to mix and match.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Yeah, Banana Republic Factory is cheaper than regular Banana Republic, but still has good-looking and good quality stuff. Most of my work wardrobe is from there! I love their pants and sweaters.

          If you’re going to buy quite a bit from BR/Gap/Old Navy, you might consider picking up the BR credit card–I use it solely when I’m shopping there. It has pretty decent rewards (plus cardholder-only coupons and sales–has a pretty high APR though so be sure to pay it off every month).

          1. Annie Moose*

            Forgot to add some stuff about prices. BR Factory’s full prices can still be pretty pricey, but if you hit them at a sale when you’ve got rewards money and coupons, you can get stuff very reasonably. (and they have regular sales!) For example, a full-price cardigan is $60 or so, but I’ve never actually paid that much for one; I get them when they’re 50% off or more.

            Actually, it looks like their online clearance is 75% off right now… I might need to do some browsing myself…

    3. Annon*

      Kohls has a lot of business casual stuff! Some of it is nicer than others, but a lot of it looks pretty good for the price. I think they have even more online than in store.

  257. Constantly Braining*

    I have a question regarding an incompetent Brown Noser in my office. I say incompetent because he rarely does any real work yet talks about how awesome he is all day long. He also works very hard to get in with the bosses. He’s incredibly skilled with words and speaking to the point of my actually becoming fearful of him working on stealing the promotion I’m next in line for. In fact, I recently heard that he thinks he’ll be the next.

    I used to fix his mistakes for him, and then tell him about it so that he could learn how to do his job correctly. But, for some reason he’s been taking credit for my work all while patting himself on the back.

    I start training in a week for another position that works more closely with my boss’s position. The plan is to move me into his when he retires in September.

    Part of me wonders if I’m simply becoming paranoid, or if I have a real worry here. He’s quite skilled at making himself look great all while talking down every other person in the office. He’s child like in his approaches, gossips all day long, tattles on others constantly, has been caught lying multiple times, and overall, gets very stressed out with his simple job. He’s stressed out because sometimes he has difficult customers, and he has a hard time being a “yes man” when sometimes he has to tell people “no”. He gets so frustrated that he will angrily curse the phone or computer, and he will even curse at the door after the angry customer leaves. He has yelled at customers too. His demeanor switches like a light switch as soon as a superior comes to our building, and all of a sudden, he’s the most professional and loving employee on the planet. He’s very over the top with this.

    I’m wondering if it’s annoying of me to actually email him and Cc: management whenever I fix one of his countless mistakes. It can just be one email per evening that summarizes everything I changed yet still has tips and pointers to the co-worker on how to recognize and fix the mistakes on his own. This is what I’ve been doing in person with him, but turns out, he’s using that as an advantage since upper management thinks he’s just so great at his job. Don’t get me wrong, they think I’m great at my job too. I just feel that if he’s this much of a deceiver, will he be able to deceive management into thinking he’s more worth the promotion than myself? I’ve been with the company the longest out of everyone in the office and out of all of us supervisors. I’ve put in years of recognized excellence for eating my goals consistently. Meanwhile, training this coworker is like watching the movie, “50 First Dates”, and I am not the type to play office drama and or tattle on him (unless it is serious enough).

  258. Constantly Braining*

    I just want to clarify that I don’t “eat” my goals. I’m typing from my cell phone and missed an “autocorrect”. Although, eating goals sounds kinda cool.

  259. On PIP (but not really)*

    I’ve posted a couple times before about being put on coaching at work for performance issues. I figured I would continue the sage every 1-2 weeks on here.

    As of now, I have been on coaching for a month. To recap, my manager wrote me up for performance issues and put me on a Performance Improvement Plan, though she explained that she didn’t consider me a low performer and this wasn’t a sign I was going to get terminated, but to address some recurring performance issues that cropped up in the last 2 months of being at my job. These include:
    – Not turning in complete drafts of my research deliverables (we have to turn in drafts to our supervisors every day – since we work on research assignments I wasn’t aware drafts had to be “complete” if that makes sense )
    – Not writing enough context for our PPT format research reports (We switched to doing PPT only reports instead of Word, which I was fine at before we switched)

    I’m having someone read my reports before I turn them in, and I have to bcc the coach on my daily draft emails to my supervisor. So far, things seem to be going well. I’m sending the drafts I’m supposed to be sending, and my last report turned out well. I have one month of coaching left unless it gets extended.

    Right now, I’m not too worried, but I’m discouraged. Before, whenever I received positive feedback on a project, it made me happy. Now I feel like it just buys me another day at the company. Since I started about a year ago, I was routinely praised for writing decent reports and being good at arriving at analytical insights. However, now I’m too aware that I’m the employee who is ‘on coaching’ (though no one knows this but my manager, the coach, and me) and I don’t think I will ever be star employee who is put on stretch assignments or promoted. This is also pretty much my first job so I’m not sure if these problems will follow me to future jobs.

    1. analytica*

      Did they tell you about these issues before placing you on a PIP? If not, that’s on them. This just doesn’t seem right to me — putting someone on an improvement plan but not because they’re a low performer. Regular performers don’t need improvement plans; they should improve per feedback, and the set-up with someone reviewing your work should just be something that’s a temporary thing rather than an officially named plan. :/

  260. HA2*

    I can’t decide whether to leave my job or not…

    I’m in tech. I’ve been at this job for a few years, which makes my tenure at this place above the average for the industry/area.

    According to Glassdoor the raise they gave me this year was low enough that I’m being paid below average market value for my skills/area. (But Payso says my pay is exactly average). The work itself isn’t really challenging me – my growth at my current space would have to be in the management or PM area because there’s just no need for more advanced technical skills, I’m not using a lot I have. But the company’s great, and the folks I’m working with are all nice and easy to work with.

    I think I’ll look around a little, maybe put in a few applications and see whether any of them come through and are better. I’m definitely not in a “get out now” spot, but I guess getting too comfortable probably isn’t good, I should see what the market’s actually like…

  261. Timmie*

    Bit late to the thread, but here goes:
    I’m a college student, female in chemistry. I would really like to dye my hair. Is there anyone here who works in that field and has an idea of how accepted this is? Normally I’d assume no one cares because it’s college, but I’m in a research group with a respected professor, our career fairs and stuff are really good, and I don’t want to give off ANY initial bad impressions in a networking situation (no matter how unjustified).
    What I’ve done so far is just dyed the tips of my hair, because I can do it up in a bun that hides all color when I’m trying to be professional. I’m thinking about doing a streak though.

    1. Sally*

      How about subtle highlights or those ombre hair style of several shades of color? I think if you color your hair a standard color it is acceptable. I’m not sure about manic panic colors though. But maybe you can use an auburn color instead of manic panic red. I think there are some professionals who color their hair too and they still dress in professional attire, but probably better to stick with standard colors. Talk to a hairstylist and they can help you pick out a professional look and yet a trendy style of hair color.

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