open thread – July 5-6, 2019

by Alison Green on July 5, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hi everyone! These are the site commenting rules. If you haven’t read them in the last month or so, please take a minute to review them now, which may save me some moderation work in weeks to come. Thanks!

    Also, a small change to the open thread rules: I will be removing comments that are simply “happy Friday” or “bored at work” at so forth, as these threads get very long and unwieldy as it is and I want people to be able to use them for substantive discussion.

  2. Release the Kraken*

    Thanks to everyone who gave me advice a few weeks ago on giving my notice. It went OK, awkward but uneventful. My boss seemed completely unfazed so either he saw it coming, he’s trying to play it cool, or he genuinely doesn’t care that I’m leaving after almost 14 years of working there. I’m trying hard not to dwell on the feeling that it’s the latter.

    This whole thing has turned me into such a liar! I don’t see any purpose in revealing the real reasons why I’m leaving because pointing out the dysfunction won’t change a thing, so I feel like a murderer on Law & Order who’s assiduously trying to stick to their alibi. “A great opportunity came along and I just couldn’t pass it up.” “A friend of a friend works there so, when I found out about the job opening, I just had to try for it.” “It’s going to be a great career move and will open a lot of doors for me.” Rinse and repeat. I keep getting the question, “Have you been looking for a while?” from co-workers and it’s incredibly awkward. Who asks that?! I find myself replying with yet more lies since I don’t want anyone to know that I’ve been so desperate to leave that I’ve been searching for the past six months, mentally checked out of work and plotting my blessed escape. “Nope, this just fell into my lap.” LIES.

    I’m unsure what to say on my last day there. It’s a tiny office with only six office staff. My boss asked me to hold off on telling anyone until he figured out how he wanted to proceed with the division of work, which I was fine with. But then when I was at lunch that day he told the two admins who would have to take over my work. One of them congratulated me when I got back to the office. She’s since asked me questions about the new job and seems genuinely interested. The other admin said nothing. We don’t have a great relationship ever since I was promoted and it was clear she was angry and resentful. She’s also one of the most bitter, miserable people I’ve ever met. I have to admit part of the reason why I’m so happy to leave is because I won’t be stuck in close quarters with her anymore. She’s tried to file completely unfounded complaints against me and, while my boss says he disregarded them, I can’t help but wonder if some of her complaints have gotten to him and colored his view of me. I have no idea what to say to her or my boss on my last day. The usual, “It’s been great working with you” really doesn’t apply. I am so burned out and bitter about how things played out after 13+ years of dedication to a company that I don’t want to say anything nice, especially to her. And I don’t want to be completely phony. But then if I’ve been lying my bum off this whole time then what’s one more lie for the sake of niceties? I’m trying to navigate my notice period with grace and professionalism but it sure does require a lot of fakery.

    I just need to hang on two more weeks and then I’m free!!!

    1. Mel*

      I feel you on the lying about why you’re leaving. I was surprised at how surprised people were about my leaving. I’d been miserable for quite a while and I thought everyone knew it! And people I thought would be only TOO glad to see me go were actually a bit emotional about the whole thing.

      I told people it was for the benefits, so it was obvious I’d made a choice that it was time to go, but I told everyone how great they were even if I thought they were the worst. I just figured it’s better for their last impression of me to be a gracious one.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This was me. I wanted to tell a few people at my last job where they could go when I left, my boss included; however, I just sent out a super fake farewell email saying how I enjoyed working with everyone (ha!) and wish them the best. I figured I was off to a new, better, and better paying/benefits providing job – I won.

        1. Karma*

          This is the way to look at it. You did win. There is no reason to rub it in on the way out. I’ve been there, too, and even ended up making a lot more than the awful boss was. She was also eventually fired so things do end up the way they should without burning bridges on the way out.

    2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      “I’m taking a lot of memories with me from this place, thanks to you. Goodbye!”

      2. Square Root of Minus One*

        I would have said ‘I learned a lot working with you’ but I like yours better :)
        Congrats for leaving, Kraken.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        LOL! Damn, I wish I had said this instead with an addendum: “Though my time spent with you was brief (17 months), it felt like I’d been here an eternity.”

      4. Robin Ellacott*

        Beautiful! I like my company but want to remember this just in case.

        I do have a history of writing “it won’t be the same without you” in cards for people who are leaving and taking their drama elsewhere.

      6. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        I’m planning on using “Thanks for the opportunity”. Exactly what opportunities (learning how to recognise bad management, how to cope with constant interruptions, what it feels like to be denied decent career progression….) can be left unsaid

    3. londonedit*

      It’s always so awkward! People always want to know all the details. Reminds me of when I found a new place to live in order to get out of a houseshare with a woman who was very nice but who started having her boyfriend round to stay 3-4 nights a week. I didn’t want to make a big deal of it, so I stuck to ‘Oh, no, I wasn’t really looking, but I was still signed up to all the property emails and this one just jumped out at me!’ or ‘Once I saw it, I couldn’t pass up the opportunity!’ When the answer really was ‘Yes I’ve been looking for four months because I’m sick of coming home and having to go straight to my room like it’s a student house because you and your boyfriend are going to be watching films in the living room all evening’…

      1. Release the Kraken*

        You’ve made me feel much better about the lies! Yup, yours was definitely a situation where a little polite lying was best. Intellectually I understand there are situations that warrant lying, but it still feels so unnatural.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. “I wish you the best” and then watch the confusion on their faces. It’s actually kind of fun.

      2. Good luck with that*

        “I wish you all the success and happiness you deserve.”

        Say it was a big smile, and they may *never* figure out what you really meant.

    5. Tallulah in the Sky*

      Sorry you’re going through that, I don’t like lying either. Just remember that soon it will be over. At least for me, knowing the end is in sight helps :-)

      For your final speech, you can lean on some neutral truths, like “I learned so much here” (no need to say the learning wasn’t all good), “Did great work with (some) amazing people” (no need to say they aren’t all amazing), etc. Try to think of the positive and focus on that. Have a speech prepared so you don’t flounder under pressure. We had some layoffs recently, decided by the very higher ups, not our manager. We were all sad about this and disappointed by how things went. For every person leaving, our manager did a goodbye speech (with gift) and the one leaving was also expected to say a few words. It was obvious no one prepared what they would say and ALL speeches were awkward.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        The people being laid off were made to give goodbye speeches? No wonder they were awkward.

        1. Tallulah in the Sky*

          The goodbye speeches were in our team, without the higher ups who took the decision to lay them of. We all appreciate each other, they weren’t “made” to give a goodbye speech per se, it’s just how we do things when someone leaves (speech from the manager, thanking them for their work and wishing them the best, give the gift, the person accepts and says some words). It would have been as awkward, if not more, if they had accepted the gifts silently and returned to their desks. Or even worse, we do nothing at all.

      2. Release the Kraken*

        That’s awful that they had to give speeches under those circumstances. “My speech is the trail of tears I leave between my desk and the door.”

        I will be sure to highlight whatever positives I can and gloss over everything else. I love the lines you suggested.

      3. Staxman*

        “Did great work with (some) amazing people” (no need to say they aren’t all amazing)

        They were amazing in a bad way, and putting with them without losing it was a great accomplishment!

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      It will be a great feeling when that day comes. When I gave my notice to my then-boss 3 years ago after 12 years, she responded in a really weird and passive aggressive way, telling me that she’d known this was coming because she knew I’d been unhappy, and my negativity had been affecting her and the rest of the team. Yeah, I’d been extremely frustrated with things that had been going on, and so had everyone else. I was just the only one who ever spoke up and said anything. She’s worked for that company her whole career, which at that point was about 25 years. The parent company was starting to make moves to eventually outsource our jobs and move our department into another division, and also make us move everyone onto systems we didn’t know or support. A lot of corporate political maneuvering and BS that was creating a lot of misery and unpleasantness for us, and all she ever did was sit there and take it. She was trying to hang on for retirement, and keep her head down and not draw too much attention to herself or make any waves. I didn’t blame her; in her position I likely would have done the same thing, but her decision to do that meant that she didn’t advocate for her team the way she once had.

      When she said that, I’m sure she was hoping that I’d feel contrite and apologize. But all it did was convince me more than ever that quitting was the right thing to do.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        This is scary. Your ex-boss sounds like my boss. OMG, there are TWO OF THEM….and probably a lot more. My old boss is sorta my ex-boss now, only she’s still doing a lot to functions such as signing time sheets because her successor hasn’t been authorized yet. The day’s comin’, the day’s comin’.

    7. lulu*

      If possible you can stick to vague statements: “it was time to move on”, “I was ready for a change”, then you won’t feel that you’re lying, just not volunteering more info than you’re ready to share. To those who ask “Have you been looking for a while?”, you just say something not committal like ” I guess I’ve just been keeping my eyes open for a while, you know how it is….” and they can make of that what they will. No need to pretend leaving is breaking your heart. Good luck for what comes next!

      1. ..Kat..*

        Good advice. I think RtK might be an honest and literal person, thus so many things feel like lies. But “it was a great opportunity…” doesn’t have to be a lie. It can mean “anything that gets me out of here is great.”

      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        “Not really.” True, when you consider the length of time your search took vs. the length of time it took for the universe to evolve. It’s all relative.

    8. Blue Eagle*

      Maybe reframe this in your head and answer a different question. For example – if they ask if you’ve been looking for awhile, respond with “you know, sometimes things just drop in your lap”. The response is a true statement, and it evades directly answering the question that was asked. If they ask – why are you leaving, respond with “I just have to do what is best for my family/for me”. And to any follow-up questions, the old standby “it is what it is” is a good non-answer that lets the questioner know that you are not up for providing more details.

      1. Chris*

        The specific questions make me wonder whether the colleague is also looking for a way out, so they are just genuinely interested in your job search.

    9. Quinalla*

      It’s always awkward, but glad it sounds like it went pretty well.

      Try not to fret about lying, it isn’t worth it or necessarily safe to tell the truth, but I get feeling weird about it. When I left my last place, I didn’t lie too much (occasionally if asked a very specific question that I wasn’t about to answer), but mostly told partial-truths. I had a mix of reasons for going, some that were positive, some neutral, and some negative. I gave a few of the negative ones I thought my old boss might act on to him (in my case – salary, no room for advancement, too much travel, and a specific incident with another employee that I thought he handled poorly that I wanted to reiterate – involved me having to come into work when I was supposed to be on vacation for something that was NOT my fault, grrr) mixed with neutral/positive stuff. It was the truth that was useful and polite, the rest of the negative would have done nothing to help and potentially would have soured our professional relationship.

    10. Budgie Buddy*

      I deeply relate to the feeling of carrying a lot of resentment inside and being disappointed that literally no one else gives an F about the complex and sensitive reasons I am making a big life change. Hard to launch into “And these are all the reasons I’ve been devalued here!!!” in response to “You found a new job? Best of luck!”

      On the bright side Kraken doesn’t have to feel any guilt about “lying” when they know full well the other person does not want to get into the drama.

    11. Grey Coder*

      I used “an opportunity came up which was more aligned with my long term goals” to explain quitting once. The long term goal in that instance was to avoid murdering anyone. It has always been a goal of mine to get through life without murdering anyone, so it was completely true.

    12. LadyAbhorsen*

      I feel you on this. I’ve been lying to my supervisor and boss about my interview process, and spent my last day before medical leave talking with Boss about everything I’ll be “picking back up” once I return… except I’m giving my notice halfway through the leave because of NewJob’s start date.

      Lying leaves such a bad taste in the mouth but it seems like a requirement for the entire process of moving jobs—from interviewing through the polite lies you talk about having to give to get through your notice period with grace. Ugh! What a process.

    13. Jasnah*

      I’m going to try to make this sound not terrible, but actually I think of situations like this as an opportunity to practice lying/deflecting! I’m a very honest person and a terrible liar and people can usually see right through me. I’m trying to develop more of a poker face and not get so obviously ruffled by questions that make me uncomfortable. And sometimes it’s valuable to be able to say with a smile “I’m so happy for you” to someone you feel jealousy or resentment towards–not because you’re being two-faced, but because sometimes we need to hide our nastier instincts to preserve social harmony, or people are being rude and we want to be gracious. Maybe you want your friend to know you’re truly happy for her, even though you’re a little jealous. Maybe an in-law asked a rude question and everyone is watching your reaction so you don’t want to be rude. This is a good time to practice that!

    14. Observer*

      Why not tell the truth. An edited version, but the truth nevertheless. If someone asks you “Have you been searching for a while?” You can respond with “A while.” “Why are you leaving?” “It was time to make a move.” etc. You don’t need to share all the details, but why make stuff up? It’s just an added stress.

  3. Recs for an office fan*

    Hello! This is my first summer in a new office that faces east, and the AC can’t keep up with how warm it gets in here during the morning. Does anyone have recommendations for a good fan that can cool my office down without being obnoxiously loud?

    1. Bebop*

      I have three Lasko 4000 Air Stik Ultra-Slim Oscillating Fans in different rooms at home. They’re not silent, but I think they’re pretty quiet and they don’t take up a ton of space. They have a high and a low setting, and can rotate or stay in one position, so you can adjust them to your needs. :)

      1. Zeldalaw*

        I’m not sure which model I have, but it’s also a Lasko tower oscillating fan and I like it (it’s whatever was available in the office supply catalog from work!). I would also recommend one with a remote control if you aren’t sitting right by it. That way, if it does get loud or you want to turn it up/down, you can turn it off/down/up, whatever, without having to keep getting up and down. I can be kind of back and forth about what I want it to be doing at any given moment (too hot, now too much air, now I want it right on me, now too much air again – middle age hormones are a joy!!) and the remote is great to be able to adjust it without having to keep getting up to adjust it.

      2. Kuododi*

        I have seen advertisements for bladeless fans. (Both tabletop and floor). I’ve never tried them myself but the word is that bladeless is one of the quieter designs on market today. I’m fairly certain the brand was Dyson however don’t quote me. I’d suggest Googling “bladeless fans” and see what pops up. Best regards.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          I actually saw some of those set up for demonstration in a home store on my way from work tonight. They were tempting. I have all kinds of fans for my hot little abode to try to spare the AC, and they’re all giving up the ghost after several years of hard service. Kinda pricey but they cooled the area nicely and really were quiet.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m a big fan of tower fans, they have always been the most quiet option in my experience. Since they’re focusing on sweeping motions instead of spinning a wheel, if that makes sense?

    3. lost academic*

      I think your better plan might be to ask for blinds or a shade that you can have down in the morning. It’ll certainly save on cooling costs as well!

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      You can also say, “bye! Have a great weekend!” Like it’s any other day and then you just don’t go back. The size of your smile is up to you.i hav a small plastic Lasko desktop fan and it’s very quiet. I am a big princess about noise.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      I like the little Vornado. It has fabric blades, so it won’t endanger your fingers. Also, when it’s not running, it looks like a little 3-eared gerbil!

    6. Aphrodite*

      This is going to sound weird but it really works: aluminum foil. If you are in a private office block off the windows or parts of windows that get any morning sun. (Keep it “dull side out” for good neighborly relations.) You can either tape foil directly to the windows or tape it to large cardboard pieces you can remove later in the day.

      I do this at home with the morning sun side windows. They are kept dark all summer. In the office, I have two windows, a large one with a nice tree outside and a smaller one that gets all the afternoon sun. The smaller one has foil neatly and carefully taped on each of its four panes. The larger one has two windows above the main one, kind of half-moon shaped, and the sun in the summer is at such an angle that those two are not helped by the tree at all. They get sun from the minute it comes up for about three hours. Having those covered has made a huge difference thus far (and I can say the same for my home).

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Make sure that building facilities allows this though, some are really persnickity about if you can put things in the window because of outside appearance issues.

        This isn’t weird at all, it’s age old stuff that sadly is viewed poorly upon in some areas and by certain types of people because it inadvertently looks like you’re impoverished since you regularly see it in trailers and beat down houses. -Signed a former trailer-park kid.

        1. TPS Cover Sheet*

          Well, umm… in my neck of the woods you get a visit from the old bill as you have a ”grow house” and the foil is there to keep the light from going out…

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            That’s also an issue as well! It’s actually to keep the heat in in that case as well, since you’re trying to get the greenhouse effect.

            There are other ways to go about it if it’s just the issue of seeing the lights inside, with just standard cardboard and black out drapes. My dad worked graveyard shift, so that’s how we made sure the light didn’t bother him.

            You must be from a highly conservative area if the police are actually pounding on doors with that assumption just over the foil itself. That’s not enough to get a warrant here and would be viewed as harassment.

          2. Aphrodite*

            That is why I do not cover the entire window. In my home, the foil only comes up as far as the sun can reach which is about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way. I don’t want to look like a drug house so I reserve it for the morning sun windows and it comes down immediately when it begins to turn cool again.

      2. OrigCassandra*

        More expensive, but can also work: the reflective thingers that are made for car windshields.

        I get the kind that fold/scrunch up small for easy putting away in the winter.

    7. I'm a FAN*

      I just bought a Vornado vintage fan for my home and it is so cute I’d get another for the office in a heartbeat!

      Not totally silent, but I find it to be a good white noise level. And again, it’s so darn cute.

    9. Phoenix Programmer*

      Late to this but you should but the fan under your desk for maximum coolage.

  4. Bebop*

    What kind of wrist rests, besides memory foam ones, do you guys find comfortable?

    I’ve been using a memory foam wrist rest for four years (it’s a cheap Fellows brand one) and never liked it. The description on Amazon made it sound like it would be soft, and as if the weight and warmth of my wrists would make it conform around them, but in reality it’s hard and has no give unless I press into it with my fingers. Just sitting my wrists on it is like sitting my wrists directly on my desk.

    I was looking on Amazon earlier and saw some pellet filled ones. Are those any good? Are there other kinds you guys would reccomend?

    1. Catsaber*

      I’ve been using the pellet filled ones for several years now and they are just fine. The only annoying thing (and it’s just slightly annoying) is that I often turn my mouse wrist pad over just to “fluff” it up. But it doesn’t seem to have as many pellets as my keyboard wrist pad. My keyboard one is brand HandStands, I think I got it on Amazon? Or Fry’s? It’s been a long time. But it’s good, it has the right pellet density for me.

    2. Wordnerd*

      I don’t have wrist rest recommendations, so feel free to ignore me, but are you using an ergonomic keyboard? My wrists start to hurt five minutes after using a regular keyboard! Getting an ergonomic keyboard might solve the issue at the source! *Please ignore if you already have one!*

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        The gel ones are my favorite, as well, with pellet-filled ones coming in a close second.

      4. Freya*

        Our facilities dept issues everyone the 3M gel ones for the keyboards – the mouse ones are staples brand mouse pad with the gel wrist rest.

    4. Booksalot*

      After I badly sprained my wrist, I could not get comfortable with mousing again. I switched to a sideways ergonomic mouse, which helped, but it meant that wrist rests no longer supported the correct side of my arm.

      I’ve since rigged up my own, which involves pinning a beanbag-style rest to the wrist brace itself. Not only does it hold the rest firmly where I need it, but continuing to use the brace forces me to use proper movement and not needlessly flex my wrist.

    5. Kathenus*

      I have arthritis in my wrists and use these both for the keyboard and mouse. I’ve found they are so individual in what is comfortable for me that I want to try them so I go to an office supply store and try out different ones. Some foam are comfortable, others aren’t. Same with pelleted or other types. So it may help to actually go and check some out in person to find what you want – you can always buy that brand online later if you’dl ike.

      1. LavaLamp*

        I’ve been using a rainbow light gaming keyboard because it has a magnetized attached wrist rest.

    6. Ramanon*

      My cat. She gets to hang out with me, I don’t have wrist pain, everyone wins. Except my desk, because she’s a drooler.

      More seriously, I’ve been told that there’s a corgi butt mousepad that’s hugely ergonomic, but I don’t know what the filling is, just that the shape is good.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Funny, it’s the other way around for me… my wrist is my cat’s favorite thing to sit on.

        1. Ramanon*

          Joys of an oriental cat- they’re just smart enough to figure out causality if you give them enough time. Especially if there’s a reward, like pats.

          Except she also opens doors and turns on the sink. So that’s fun.

    7. TPS Cover Sheet*

      There’s these pyramid-shaped keyboards, and then for the ”mouse wrist” there were all kinds of balls and this very old invention that was tapping the arrow keys you used with a roller… I could gawk at a colleague using one back in the 90’s…

      I’m never good with those gel rests, the thing is I had ”mandatory typing” and have a carpal tunnel that still now makes my pinkies numb. My typing is very weird and hacking as I need to kerp the ”dead fingers” off the keyboard so remote I get always told to mute on a call as I have a tad loud ”Cherry” clone of an old IBM that helps me to ”hear” my fingers…

    8. ..Kat..*

      My recommendation is to get two different wrist rests and then alternate. Use one for a couple of hours, then switch, and repeat. I find that using just one wrist rest (no matter how good) does not feel good after X amount of time.

    9. Researchalator Lady*

      There’s a Kensington wrist rest with a molded tray for your wrist with four different size inserts. I use this with a “sideways mouse” and an ergonomic keyboard (in varying configurations depending on which office I am working out of) and love it.

  5. Booksalot*

    I am so effing fed up with how buggy and broken LinkedIn is. It never loads right, my replies to recruiters get eaten and vanish, comments in professional forums disappear.

    One known member of my field posted a really obscure question about a software bug this week, and I actually knew the answer because I’d just dealt with the same thing. For the life of me, my response would. not. load. I was ready to scream. So sick of this junky platform!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been tee-off about how they changed their “Open to opportunities” feature. If you turn it on, you HAVE TO respond to recruitment messages even if they are junk. If you don’t respond to enough, LinkedIn turns your “open to opportunities” off again.

      1. Booksalot*

        OMG, a pox on that nonsense. “Thanks for reaching out. Unfortunately I have no experience in sysdev, AS USING LITERACY TO READ MY PROFILE WILL TELL YOU.”

        1. TPS Cover Sheet*

          Oi mush, I feel your pain…

          I get spammed with ”java developer” jobs. Yeah so I was a ”Java Platform Manager” at one point. My answer is… ”You are looking for a ”java developer” like a F1-driver… I am a ’platform manager’ as in ’the pit boss’, I fix the engine, I don’t drive the car.”

          Nevermind ”full stack developer” … ”which stack,sunshine?”

    2. Audiophile*

      I turned it on too. Wasn’t aware LinkedIn disables it if you don’t respond to recruiters.

      I got contacted by a handful of recruiters for small agencies. The first one moved fast but the client they were helping was less than impressive. The more recent one was working with a well known education company.

      I think in a lot of cases you just have to search yourself, you’re more likely to find appropriate jobs that way.

  6. Arewethereyet*

    How do you know if you’re burnt out? What were your signs? And how did you recover?

    (Enjoy the holiday weekend, y’all!)

    1. ThisIshRightHere*

      Unfortunately, I’ve only really figured out after I finally got some rest and realized “omg, I was basically dead before.” Trying to get better at noticing the signs and catching it early, but it’s a constant struggle.

    2. RandomU...*

      My patience level gets low.
      My filter isn’t as robust as it should be
      I get apathetic about things
      I start buying lottery tickets

      These are the big ones. I’m kind of here right now with my job. I haven’t figured out if it’s boredom or burnout. I think a little bit of both.

      I combat burnout by just rolling with it for awhile, I snap out of it eventually. Boredom is a little harder for me, it typically involves finding a new job or a new project.

      1. TheBean*

        Apathy is my big demonstration. I dont care- dont care about the project, dont care about the outcome, I’m not interested in the data.
        The other one for me is cleaning, especially of things that have been hanging around for years. This one might be “me” specific because I NEVER clean and get yelled at for having a messy desk on a regular basis.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        to me it depends on how I feel when I come *back* from a good vacation of at least a week. Am I at all re-energized or enthusiastic about the work? This helps me determine where the issue is.

        1. RandomU...*

          Sadly my next vacation isn’t until September. I call this one my soul restoring vacation, because I get on a boat and leave all electronics behind (everyone does, because there’s no wifi!) and just enjoy being.

          I’ll see what it’s like after that, but I’m not holding out too much hope.

        2. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          Yes! This is key. When I had a panic attack on the motorway on the way home from a break (coupled with a resting heart rate in the low 90s) was when i knew something had to change.
          Unfortunately, for those looking for advice, I’m sorry to say I’m under the doctor looking for a solution – so I have nothing to contribute.

        3. The Other Dawn*

          I think this is key. Now that I think back to the times I was burned out, no amount of vacation helped me feel recharged. I dreaded going back to work.

          As far as how long it took me to recover? A LONG time. It wasn’t until the company closed and I was out of work for a few months that I truly felt recovered, even though the burnout happened a couple years before the company closed; I’d recovered somewhat during those couple years, but not completely.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        This is (almost) all me (except for buying lottery tickets). When I was burned out in previous jobs, I just no longer gave a damn about anything, so I’d go run errands during work hours or sit at my desk and online shop all day. I might squeeze in a few time-sensitive work-related task, but that was about it. I’d stop speaking to people because everything out of my mouth was going to be negative.

        The way I’d get out of the true burnout phase was by getting a new job. This isn’t as bad as it sounds – I was with one company for nearly three years, one for four, and my last one for 17 months. I didn’t leave the latter due to burnout, but due to boredom, which is a whole other issue, but pretty much presents the same way as burnout in me.

      4. boop the first*

        I don’t know if it’s “burnout”, but I recognize a cycle:

        – Also agree with the apathy/reduced filter as already mentioned
        – I start self sabotaging and denying myself things that matter to me
        – I start purging my home of objects, even if I still like them
        – I start fantasizing about death on my way to work
        – I feel normal on my days off though. I think that might be important.

    3. Catsaber*

      I got burnt out in my last job and realized it because I didn’t care about the consequences of my actions, and I’m normally a very conscientious person. Like…I didn’t care if my work didn’t get done, I’d just make an excuse and my boss would buy it. I played around on the internet all day. I did the bare minimum. That was very uncharacteristic of me. In that job, I could get away with doing the bare minimum, but it gnawed at me and felt wrong. But I was exhausted, and the culture was toxic, so I just didn’t care.

      I got a new job a couple years ago and my work ethic has really revitalized. I think getting a new job was really the only option at that point – I hated working in that department, and they just weren’t going to invest in the kind of work I wanted to do, so I found another department that suited my career goals much better.

      1. Quiltrrrr*

        This is where I am. Absentee manager (and the last job was like that; this one was supposed to be better and isn’t), and a raise that was insulting even though I had an excellent performance review, have led to just not caring anymore. As long as the minimum gets done, no one seems to care, and I just don’t either. I was doing better at the beginning of the new job, but went right back into old patterns because there was no reason not to.

      2. Ace in the Hole*

        Huh. I always pictured burnout as being a tears and anxiety kind of deal, but reading some of these comments is really resonating… maybe time to take a closer look at my job.

        1. Richard Williams*

          Ace – it’s more like a slow numbing of the soul for me. It’s an erosion of will and spirit.

    4. Tigger*

      I knew I was burned out when I started crying when I woke up on Saturday mornings because I only had 48 hours left until I had to go back to work. I took some PTO and had a conversation with my boss about my workload. Thankfully he had my back and reassigned my work while I was away so I wouldn’t come back to a mountain of work. I was also more mindful to listen to my body and have “me time” during the day. It is amazing what a 5-minute walk in the middle of the day can do for you

    5. Mel*

      Getting furious about small things. Like edits to a project I know has a 50% chance of needing edits. Or needing to stop in the middle of a project to help someone. These things really don’t hurt me, but I would be seething.

      For me it’s happened a few times and the answers have been different. The worst time was solved by my boss hiring another person to help with the work. I was also furious about this because I wanted to be fully in control of the work, but it was SO helpful. I found myself enjoying my work again after about a month of her arrival.

      Other times I have had comments from coworkers or friends make me take a step-back and evaluate what on earth is going on with me. Why am I SO angry?

      And then I have to let go of how much I care about my work. It feels a little wrong or rebellious. Like, “I’ll show you! Here’s my apathetic work!” but it’s actually better for everyone. I do better work when I care a little less.

      1. Tetsal*

        >> I do better work when I care a little less.

        YES. Caring too much made me anxious and nervous and angry when others didn’t seem to care about the project as much as me. It also made minor non-issues and small mistakes seem so much worse than they were. Learning to care less was a blessing.

      2. ISO Happy*

        I like your last line, Mel. I’m a Quality Manager, and to stay on an even keel, I often have to imagine that I’m a consultant instead of an employee. This way, I don’t feel like the system of processes and results I work with are “mine” or a reflection on my value. When I take things less personally, my stress decreases and I find more satisfaction in my work.

      3. Anita Brayke*

        +1! I once had a boss who, when faced with a question from me about how to stop burning out, said “stop caring so much!” If it hadn’t been for being on call 24/7 for workers to call off for the day, and being able to sleep until 4 or 5 a.m. was essentially sleeping in from the usual amount of call-outs, I may have lasted there. As it was, I found something much better and am very happy now!

    6. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      I lose interest in everything work related, dread coming to work even though I like my job and my coworkers, have to force myself to be productive, and spend the whole week looking forward to the weekend.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Slacking on things that I usually am on top of [filing, I’m looking at you, all day long].

      Lethargy. I’m just “over it” as soon as I wake up or walk in in the morning or very soon after arrival, nothing has to actually happen, I’m just not in the mood.

      People start grating on my nerves for nothing at all. I start nitpicking coworkers in my mind and starting to erode my “like” for them or if I just have never particularly liked them, it’s full on BEC mode.

      Just general exhaustion and going through the motions.

      To me it’s a lot like a flare up of depression.

    8. NicoleK*

      Signs of burnout for me: irritability, apathy, dreaded going to work, going through the motions, anxiety (I normally don’t suffer from anxiety), sleeplessness, mood felt low

    9. NewReadingGlasses*

      When I thought it was Wednesday all day on a Tuesday.
      Also when I got into autodrive mode and accidentally drove to work on a Saturday.

    10. Leela*

      It’s really common for me to realize after instead of during but some are:

      It feels like I’ve lost my passion for the things I like to do outside of work (in truth, I’m just too exhausted, and when my schedules gets more reasonable my desire is exactly where it was before).

      I get irritable and things bother me a lot more than they used to

      I have a lot of trouble getting started/focusing on something compared to normal

      I start eating terribly, just grabbing whatever I can whenever I can because I either don’t have the time or energy (or both) to invest in eating properly

      When I have a new task to face I get a knot in my stomach and I’m like “please no not again, no more”.

      Honestly, I can’t find anything that fixes burnout other than reducing the workload, and you don’t always have control over that. There’s no amount of meditation, fancy new or Japanese business workflows, or time management that’s going to fix having an unreasonable workload (although any of those things might help alleviate burnout if the workload isn’t unreasonable, just high). Best of luck to you!

    11. S*

      What do you do when you’re burnt out and/or bored, but you can’t seem to pull together enough energy to look for something new? If I were single, I’d head out for a road trip or a sabbatical, but I’m primary breadwinner and the only one in our family whose job comes with benefits, so the “two months of doing absolutely nothing” that I dream of doesn’t feel feasible.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Are you able to take even a short staycation? Staying at home all day or going to check into a local hotel in my area (on the cheap if possible) usually helps me. The latter is great because somebody else picks up after me and prepares my meals so I don’t have to and I truly have time to relax. Matter fact, I need to look into doing this again soon – I’m not burned out, just lazy right now.

      2. Jasnah*

        What would you do if you were on vacation? What about vacation makes you feel relaxed/luxurious? Is it having someone bring drinks to you while you lay in a chair? Is it reading a book by the water? Is it slowly enjoying your morning coffee without having to rush anywhere? Is it trying new foods, or looking at beautiful things, or being in nature? Is it having time to do your hobbies, or just watch a movie without interruption?

        Maybe if you can break down your favorite parts of a road trip or sabbatical into these elements you can incorporate them into your everyday and “feel” like you’ve gone on vacation, a little bit at a time.

    12. BossLady*

      -Putting off assignments because they seem so dreadful
      -Not getting out of bed until the very last minute and it’s still a struggle
      -Getting upset over little things/not being patient enough
      -Bursting into tears the moment I walk in the door at home

      For me, taking a vacation is everything. It’s been really hard to do lately because of turnover in my office, but at the end of the day, you have to do it.

    13. Agent J*

      For me, it’s apathy and/or anxiety. I enjoy my work and take pride in doing it well. But when I’m burned out, I start doing the bare minimum. I’m mentally clocked out and it will take me a lot of time to complete tasks because of procrastination. I’ll get distracted very easily by non-work things.

      Coworkers I usually have patience for are now the bane of my existence. They can breathe and I’ll be irritated.

      The anxiety bit comes from stress of being overworked. To deal with the stress, I’ll eat a lot more sugary things which in turn makes me feel sluggish. I won’t sleep well and wind up needing a lot lore caffeine to get through the week. The key here is that it tends to happen piece by piece, slowly over time. By the time I notice my normal eating / sleeping habits have changed, it’s time to address it asap.

    14. Parenthetically*

      Highly, highly recommend Dr. Amy Imms’ stuff — www (dot) dramyimms (dot) com — she’s doing incredible work in the area of burnout, and her full project is launching in a week.

    15. Square Root of Minus One*

      Not much to add. Irritability, desire to be away from people, sleep troubles, dreading to go to work, emotions out of control, draining energy, feeling cornered…
      I recovered once by quitting, the other time by moving up my annual doc visit, getting deemed immediately incapable of working, burning through two straight weeks of sick leave, and talking things through with my manager when I got back. I recommend the second over the first.

    16. The Rat-Catcher*

      Burnout signs were being irritable with work, anxious about work when I wasn’t there, and not really caring if I came in an hour late or left an hour early (I’m not exempt so it really does matter). I get three weeks’ vacation and I’ve started to be a lot more intentional about how I use it (a week in the spring or summer for vacation and a week at Christmas, rather than days here and there).

    17. Jennyanydots*

      I left a job about a year ago after becoming so totally burned out that I was barely able to function. For what it’s worth, please don’t let it get that bad before addressing the situation as I am still dealing with the after-effects 13 months later, both mentally and physically. Especially physically.

      In addition to what folks have already said, here are some of my symptoms.

      Staring at my screen and being completely unable to process anything on it. It became a huge jumbled blur of color to me.

      The smallest tasks assumed a significance and difficulty that wasn’t accurate. I could spend an hour dreading something that ended up taking me 5 minutes to accomplish.

      Yelling at people in traffic. I lived in a very small town and one day I realized that I had already called 5 people an *adjective-deleted* moron and I hadn’t even gotten across town yet. When it’s a 5-moron morning, you know it’s bad.

      Crying at work. I NEVER cry at work and suddenly was tearing up at the smallest provocation.

      Horrendous insomnia. Going to work on 2 hours of sleep is a recipe for disaster. I started taking naps in my car on my lunch hour – and sometimes during regular hours.

      Wow, I’m getting stressed just thinking back to that time. Ugh. Thankfully, I’m in a full-time telework position now with very little stress.

      1. Lora*

        Oh god this. I remember ugly-crying every day in my car, and just feeling nauseated to the point of dry-heaves on the way home, knowing that I’d have to get up and do it again tomorrow. My workplace offered discounted transit passes, which normally I’d be all over, and I ended up not using mine because I didn’t want to cry on the train every day in front of strangers. Plus, the MBTA will actually stop and call you an ambulance if you barf on the train, it’s a big deal and all the commuters hate you for causing a delay.

        Also, migraines and nausea – I went from a couple of migraines per year to twice a month. And NOTHING fixed it but getting the heck out of that job. Normally if I’m feeling stressed I can take a Personal Day and do some yoga, catch up on sleep, hang out with friends and whine about work and then I’m all better. When that doesn’t help, or when I’m so very burned out that I don’t even want to talk about it to anyone, at all, anywhere, that’s when it’s a bad scene and I need to take some serious time to re-think my life choices.

    18. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Depression and burnout look really similar on me. Here’s my signs:

      * I start having a hard time getting to sleep and waking up.
      * My motivation is tapped out. It takes tremendous effort to do basic things.
      * My productivity comes way down.
      * I have a horrible time focusing, my thoughts feel scattered, and I can’t plow through.
      * My patience level comes way down.
      * I start to assume the worst things personally, instead of looking at them rationally or with good intent.

      I think the only way to recover is to truly unplug and get away from everything for at least a week, ideally longer.

    19. Wantonseedstitch*

      I’ve been employed at the same place for over twelve years, but before I started here, I was working in my first permanent job after grad school as an administrative assistant at a very small company. It started out as interesting, but soon became challenging, and then became torture. I won’t go into all the stuff that had me on the verge of a breakdown there before I finally gave my notice, but some of the things that made me realize how bad things had gotten:

      1) My performance was REALLY suffering, and kept getting worse, mostly because I was so anxious all the time that I had a hard time focusing on my work because I was always so scared about what would happen if I slipped up. I’d gotten to the point where all I wanted to do was keep my head down and not get yelled at by my bos.
      2) I was getting anxiety attacks about work even when I was at home. I remember being in the shower one day and thinking about what I’d have to face in the office the next day, and I just broke down crying.
      3) I was starting to have “disaster fantasies” on the way to work in the morning, about things like my subway train derailing, or a bomb going off–anything that would mean I wouldn’t have to go in to the office and would maybe injure me badly enough that I’d be able to take several weeks off to recover.
      4) I realized I was at the point where the challenge of trying to scrape up cash for rent and food without a job seemed more appealing to me than the idea of continuing to go to work at my job.

      How did I recover? I left. I made the decision that no matter how bad and hard things got if I left my job without another one lined up, it wouldn’t be as bad as things were at that job. I started temping, which eventually led to my finding a job in my current office. The temp work was a nice restful time for me, as I remembered what it was like to feel like I was reasonably competent and appreciated. Being offered the permanent job was even better. But I still got huge amounts of anxiety around being called into my manager’s office at the new job: every time, I expected to hear that I had screwed up and my job was in danger. It never happened, though, and slowly, with every positive thing that happened and every negative thing that FAILED to happen, my anxiety eroded to the point where I really started to understand that the shitty job I did at my former workplace wasn’t because I was incompetent and unable to hold down a real job in the real world, but because the toxicity of that workplace had almost destroyed me.

    20. Kirsten*

      Lying on my couch every night doing nothing but dreading having to go back to work the next day. And then staying up way too late, still doing nothing but lying on the couch, because if I actually went to bed it felt like the next work day would come sooner.

      I also got really cynical. I generally have a healthy sense of sarcasm, but when I realized that it had turned to cynicism that really concerned me.

      My job at the time involved a close-up look at some of the worst/saddest aspects of my community, so I found it helpful to get out and do things that reminded me that I didn’t live in a totally awful place, like taking walks through the park or going to cultural events. But ultimately that wasn’t enough to solve the problem because I was dealing with terrible manager and and extremely toxic workplace.

    21. MommyMD*

      You lose empathy. Minor things bother you. Inside you don’t give AF. I know when I start to feel like this I need to act.

    22. Anonym*

      My symptoms were pretty similar to others’s, esp. anxiety and lack of motivation, but I think I’ve found the early warning alarm: I start avoiding my friends’ phone calls because I have no emotional energy left for the people I love. That’s now my emergency klaxon, the minute I see a lifelong friend calling and I think “oh no, please, I can’t, why are you calling me…” I need to stop, rest, talk to bf, talk to therapist, something.

    23. Susan K*

      I got really burned out at my old job because it was a shift work job, so assignments were made by shift and there was little accountability. If someone didn’t get all of his or her work done, it would just get added to the next shift’s workload. I was one of the few people who actually cared about making sure all of the work got done, so I was constantly stuck picking up the slack for people who did the bare minimum and surfed the web for half the day. I stayed in the job for many years because it paid very well with lots of overtime. I finally got to a point where I just couldn’t take it anymore and I took a “promotion” that nominally pays more but rarely has paid overtime, so it’s actually less pay for the year. It comes with its own problems (see my post below, haha), but I definitely feel less burned out.

      In addition to the more common signs like dreading the workday and crying on the last day of the weekend:

      – I found myself wishing my commute was longer. I have a 15-minute drive, and when I arrived at work, I would think, “Ugh, I’m here already? I wish I could just drive another 15 minutes.” (Obviously not rational, since if I did have a longer commute, I’d just have to wake up earlier and leave earlier.) Then I would have to sit in my car for a few minutes just to work up the will to walk into the building.

      – I had to give myself pep talks to motivate me to do things. “The sooner I start, the sooner I finish.” “I just have to get through one more day this week.” I have always tried to get the worst parts of my job out of the way as early as possible, so each day, when I was done with all the worst things, I would say, “All I have left now is the easy part.”

      – I was buying more stuff. I am normally very frugal and rarely buy things for myself. If I really want something, I put it on my wishlist and hope a family member buys it for me for Christmas or my birthday, and if not, reevaluate whether I still want it. But when I was really burned out, I lost some of that restraint and just bought things when I wanted them instead of waiting.

    24. Quinalla*

      The signs for me are:
      -Stop caring about things I normally care about a lot, at home and/or work
      -Procrastinating on everything, I often will procrastinate on one things because it’s hard/scary/etc., but if I’m putting off everything I know I’m in trouble
      -Everything and everyone is pissing me off, especially if my husband starts to notice as usually no one notices when I’m pissed unless I want them to know
      -Lots of ruminating
      -When I start having a hard time making simple decisions
      -Migraines & jaw clenching/teeth grinding while awake – I do it while I sleep pretty much constantly

      Recovering and keeping burn-out at bay in order of how much the strategy helps me:
      -Regular vacations and take at least one week of vacation in a row, I usually try to do this twice a year and then scatter the remaining days throughout
      -Exercise (4-5 times a week of cardio plus as much walking as I can everyday)
      -Enough alone time (I need a lot more than most people I know, so I work hard to prioritize this too)
      -Getting enough sleep (this one is SO HARD, but I’m trying to prioritize it)
      -Time with loved ones
      -Reading & Board games & Computer Games
      -Watching TV/movies/other media that I enjoy

      I try to combine as many good things together as possible. I get in my reading or media time while I exercise and also alone time. I play a lot of board & computer games with my loved ones. And so on :)

    25. Double A*

      Crying a lot. I am not a big crier, and if work makes me cry more than a couple of times a year, I know it’s bad.

    26. Jadelyn*

      The two biggies for me are frustration and how I feel when I get up on weekdays.

      I know when I start getting more frustrated, faster, over smaller things than usual, I need to take some time off. If I’m having to curb myself, hard, to keep from snapping at coworkers, I know I’m getting burnt out.

      And while a certain amount of “ugh, do I have to go to work today?” is normal for me (thanks depression!), there’s a qualitative difference between normal “bleh, can’t I go back to bed?” and standing in the entryway, shoes on and purse in hand, staring blankly at the wall and trying to convince myself to walk out the door and go to work. At that point I know I need some time off.

      So far I’ve been able to combat small-scale burnout just by taking a week off. Having 5 days to myself – plus the weekends on either end – to just dick around the house, play video games, go to a movie, etc. works wonders for my capacity to cope with the world.

      I’m actually taking a full 2 weeks off later this month, in fact, because I realized I’m hitting That Point again and I just need some real, sustained, consecutive time away from my job, where I don’t have to be constantly planning for the next upcoming crisis and can just exist in the world for a little while.

    27. DinoGirl*

      I was angry a lot and complained about work all the time. I suffered about leaving, but a month in, it was The Best decision.

    28. Even Steven*

      For me, in my last job, it all crystallized for me when I looked back over my grocery receipts and realized I was buying a jar of antacids pretty much every week. The stress, long hours, ethical dilemmas & inept colleagues all just seemed like noise. But the recycling bin of Tums jars told me what I needed to know. I was already having and ignoring serious medical issues related to the stress, so the Tums told me to quit with no new job ready. So I did that – took 4 months off, slept a LOT, then got back in the game at a slower, calmer, wonderfully bureaucratic place.

    29. Tenebrae*

      Weirdly, one of my burnout symptoms is working even harder. My healthy work/life boundaries drop and I start crazy pushing myself, staying late, working through lunch, that kind of thing. I think my subconscious decides that if I’m going to be miserable at work, there might as well be a reason.

      1. the cat's meow*

        If you have a long commute, when the commute just leaves you more and more drained and the job just isn’t worth it anymore. The only blessing of a long commute, you decide that every day if it is or not.

    30. Richard Williams*

      It shares lot of the same symptoms as clinical depression and be easily confused as such.

      At one job I thought I needed to see a shrink (which helped a little) but it turned out what I needed was to be fired!

    31. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Burn-out is a sneaky progression. I moved to another team a few years ago that serves clients who are often very difficult and help-rejecting. We provide the tools and guidance to help themselves, but they’re used to having their hands held and everything done for them. At the same time, we’re critically understaffed for the workload. It started with getting angry during the day. Then I was going home angry. Then going to bed angry. When I started waking up in the middle of the night angry, I knew how bad it was. Then I started waking up angry and cursing the alarm clock. The job wore me out so much I didn’t have any kind of life, much less the energy or brain power for a job search. I’ve always cared about doing my job well, even if I didn’t particularly care about the job itself. Now I go through the motions, but I’ve never felt so apathetic about a job in my life. That’s a totally new experience for me. When articles came out recently about workplace burn-out, I saw myself all over the page.

    32. Evergreen*

      My ‘symptoms’ were quite similar to a lot of other ones here: anger at minor things, staying up late/dreading going to bed, sleeping in/not caring about being ‘on time’. Spending huge amounts of time on minor things (emails, filing etc) and blowing deadlines or staying back at work late.

      Solution: I quit. It took me I would say 18 months in my new job to really feel fully recovered. When I start feeling it again here, I make a list of what’s not going to get done, tell my boss, and then make a point of being on time every day and leaving on time every day, and spending lunch out of the office or going running. Book dinners with friends, book nights at home, book weekend day trips – anything that means I can’t ‘oh just work late to get that done’. Make sure the list of things that are getting done is my personal priorities, not other peoples. And reaffirm to myself that i’m choosing a life first, career second.

  7. Can I apply for this job?*

    I’m trying to escape my toxic workplace (I posted last week following my dad’s advice and about how someone spit on another person in our department, update no one was fired!! Hopefully reprimanded at the very least, but from what I hear, the person who spit produces good work so… probably not gonna be let go.)

    I have two jobs that I’m very interested in applying. The problem is…

    Job #1, is the almost the exact same job I do but in a different city department. The two cities (mine, and other job) are considered rivals in a way. My boss also knows many of the people in the other city department. My dream was to go into another job and have zero chance of having to interact with her professionally but if I applied to this job, I’m afraid she will be tipped off that I applied, and if there was a chance I was hired, I still would have to collaborate with their department from time to time.

    Job #2 is in a different company and my experience and education actually aligns with it!! And it sounds like a job I would enjoy and both feel comfortable doing well. However, the salary range listed is at least $10k more than I make now, which maybe it’s my imposter syndrome, but part of me feels like if it pays well, I don’t deserve it or it would be a long shot of even getting an interview. Logically, the experience they ask for is what I have (at least at a minimum) but my brain can’t wrap around being paid that much, especially since I’ve been underpaid currently and after grad school. Should I try to apply anyways?

    1. EditAnd EditOr*

      Apply for both! Applying doesn’t mean you have to take them, if you get offers, remember. You can apply, see what happens, find out more, and decide later!

      1. Release the Kraken*

        I second this advice! I threw out applications for every job that was tempting when I was looking. The time to deliberate between two jobs is if it comes down to getting an offer from both. Not to be pessimistic, but I applied to so many jobs that I was 100% qualified for but I was never contacted for an interview or even a phone screening. The job market where I live is tough so there’s no reason to give up on applying to one tempting job for the sake of a slightly more tempting one.

        As for possibly having contact with your boss, you’ll probably find that’s easier and much less awkward once you’ve had some distance from her. As long as you can remain professional with her you should be fine.

        Good luck fleeing your toxic situation! I gave notice at my toxic job and I am internally doing a happy dance every day I go to work. It’s so much easier to deal with the annoyances now that I know I’m on my way to better things in a couple of weeks.

        1. Can I apply for this job?*

          Congrats on getting out of your toxic job!! And thank you Edit for your advice. I think I will apply to both because y’all are right, nothing could come of it anyways. (Although I still have a fear that someone will let my boss know, but if it comes to that I could maybe deny it…) and hopefully you’re right that with distance it won’t seem as weird to interact with her! I will definitely stay professional either way.

          1. Observer*

            Who cares if your boss finds out? I’m obviously not suggesting that you announce it. On the other hand, it doesn’t sound like you could get fired over it, and the place sounds like it’s toxic already.

      2. Clisby*

        Yeah, apply for both! The worst that can happen is you don’t get either, and that’s exactly what will happen if you don’t apply. You keep your resume/cover letter up to date, you get more experience with interviews, etc.

    2. Hermione*

      Heck yes you should apply to Job #2 anyways! What is the worst that could happen?: They could reject you. You’re not any worse off than you are now except for the time invested in applying. The best?: You get a great job with a better salary and no longer have to deal with a workplace/boss that is okay (!) with people spitting (!!) at one another (!!!). Rewards outweigh the risks, my friend.

      Write a kick-butt cover letter and submit it. Good luck.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        Thank you! You’re right. I think I am just afraid of not getting it, which is always a real possibility, but I will never know unless I try.

        1. MsM*

          Yeah, I’ve pulled the “this is way too perfect for me to get my hopes up, so let me rule myself out before they can” mind game on myself way too many times before. It sucks. Don’t fall for it.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Absolutely, what MSM said. Had I let my imposter syndrome get to me, I wouldn’t be sitting in a new job (fully remote to boot) making about 27% more than what I made at my last job! The job posting seemed tailor-made for my skill set in a lot of ways, though there was one piece I wasn’t too familiar with, but I didn’t let the doubt about whether I’d be able to do that piece of the job keep me from applying – I figured if I wasn’t the best fit, the hiring manager would tell me.

            Let the company decide whether you’re right for Job 2. Good luck!

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Sounds like you work in government (“different city department”). Government wages are often lower than comparable private sector wages because the government provides better benefits and employment protections. So I would see the $10K salary increase as comparable, and possibly even less if the benefits don’t match up.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        I do! That makes sense. From what I can see on their website, job #2 has similar benefits, but it is a further commute. I’ll try and apply and see what happens.

    4. No Green No Haze*

      Apply to Job #2 anyway. You have the experience; you have the education; you’re underpaid. Apply apply apply.

      As far as your brain interference goes, here’s what works for me. I just bring to mind that Hewlett Packard internal study where they found that men apply for jobs when they’re 60% qualified, and women apply when they’re 100% qualified. I then decide that I’m at least as good as mediocre IF NOT BETTER and I behave with the unshakeable confidence of a 60%er until whatever it is that needs doing gets done.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        I have heard of that study before! I like that “confidence of a 60%er” XD thank you for the encouragement!

        1. Argh!*

          My first thought when I read your post was to assume you were female! Go for it! You need the escape, you need the money, and you need the self-respect.

          One side-effect of a toxic workplace is causing self-doubt. If you can manage it, try to find a therapist for short-term therapy during your job search. I have been bringing printouts of email exchanges between me and my boss to my therapy appointments. She has confirmed that 1) I’m professional in my communication style and 2) My boss is a jerk!

          Some of what my boss does is really demeaning and personally hurtful. I would like to think that I can distinguish between legitimate and crazy “feedback,” but after years reporting to this banshee, I realized I need help before and during my job search.

      2. Booksalot*

        This is a good metric; I do something similar but didn’t know this statistic. I try to think “What would the bro-iest Chad of Chaddington do?” and bluff my self-confidence up to his level.

      3. Jadelyn*

        My go-to is “What would a mediocre white man do?” when I’m feeling imposter-y about something.

        I also saw a tweet the other day that I liked, something like “Embrace your imposter syndrome. You are a trickster goddess and you’ve got everyone dancing to your tune. Just go with it.”

      4. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        A wise former boss once told me that a job posting is a wish list and employers don’t necessarily expect to get all of it, so if you have at least 50% of what the ad wants, apply!

    5. Susan K*

      Definitely apply for Job #2! The worst that can happen is that you don’t get it. If you’re currently underpaid, it makes complete sense to apply for a higher-paying job. That’s how career advancement works, anyway — you apply for jobs that are a level up from you current job.

      For Job #1, you will have to decide whether it’s worth the chance that you might have to continue to have contact with your old boss, but it’s always a possibility that you will run into people from your past, wherever you work. If they are decent people, they will not tip off your boss that you applied.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        True, you’re right. In the moment, any idea of having to work with my boss again terrifies me, because I know she will be very upset at me working anywhere else, especially a rival department. But I hope with time and killing with kindness, this won’t be as big of a deal. Thanks!

    6. Tallulah in the Sky*

      Like all the other : apply for job n°2 !

      But more than that : do some market research. Are you underpaid now ? Are the two jobs different, and that’s why there’s a difference in salaries ? Maybe the salary posted is even on the lower end of the spectrum for that job/industry/city… So do your research, it might give you a boost of confidence, and if you find out it’s on the lower end or in the middle of the market rate, ask for more if you get an offer (not unreasonably of course, but even 2k more is awesome, and a great experience for you).

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        Our field posts a salary survey every year which is super helpful! I use that to gauge how well I’m paid compared to peers in my same experience range +/- the cities we live in. Job #2 is a new position and for what it’s asking for in duties, does not seem more complicated than my current job (in a way, I’m sure there are more nuances than the job description) but somehow is paying much more at a minimum! It could be that it’s because it’s in a big metro area? But I will definitely do more research on it and if it turns out it’s lower range for the market, that would feel like a slight relief lol. Thanks!

        1. Windward*

          Big metro area often means higher cost of living. Be sure to factor that in as you look at numbers.

    7. Ann O'Nemity*

      Spitting? WTAF. I can’t imagine not firing someone for spitting on another person at work…. It basically sends the message that there will be zero consequences no matter what. Yikes.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        A coworker said “Well, it’s hard to get fired when you work for the government…” and this is the first time I’m working for the government so I’m not sure how true that statement is. However, our department is a hot mess. So maybe we are outliers!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that you can spit on people in your office and that it’s a government position. Yeah it’s hard to get fired…if you’re just inept and lazy, there’s a lot of hoops if you’re meeting baseline. However every CBA out there has a clause that says if you’re doing violent things, which includes spitting because it’s assault ffs, you can at least suspend someone to investigate and fire them if the findings are indeed “yeah, they spit on that person.”

          1. Can I apply for this job?*

            I would really hope the spitter gets some kind of action taken upon, but since I don’t know either of them, I can’t say. But I totally agree! When I say this is the tip of the iceberg of horrible actions that people have done at this department, I’m not kidding. Our HR is one single guy, who doesn’t have the best rep around, but… I don’t know. Once I find another job I’m strongly thinking about writing an anonymous letter to the city about the department because it’s really worrisome about the things that happen here.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I think that letter is a good idea. The fact that a city government office is allowing violence in the workplace is astounding – I would think whoever oversees your department would want that shut down ASAP.

        2. Observer*

          Yes, it’s hard to get fired. But NOT *impossible*. This should have resulted in visible and immediate consequences to start with.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Apply for #2! It probably pays more because they have a bigger budget and are closer to market levels, lots of jobs are massively underpaid and haven’t been overhauled salary wise in over a decade! Don’t let that detour you.

      I know the feeling, when I moved, the salaries went up by 25% and I had a huge panic attack when I got here and dove in. It was that “I think I’m being paid too much, I’ve never seen this kind of money before….do I even deserve this?”feeling. But believe me, you deserve that extra 10k.

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        Oh that panic attack is so relatable!! That’s exactly how I feel. I’ve never had this kind of money, do I even deserve it is 100% on point for me right now. But I’m now trying to frame it as, well if I don’t think I deserve it, then I wouldn’t think my peers or friends deserve it either (and they do!) or I think about the college freshman I mentor, and I would hate for them to think they wouldn’t deserve a higher salary either. It’s gonna take some shift in my own thinking.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes. Exactly. You shouldn’t suffer anymore than anyone else out there. You deserve money and nice things.

          Businesses and institutions exist and need people to run them, that’s what a salary is for. As long as you’re showing up and doing your job, you deserve to be paid whatever that job is worth. Nobody should think they should work for free or that they deserve less because of any of the things that our minds will tell us. It’s not greedy to be paid. It’s not selfish to spend money on yourself or to take care of yourself.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          My friend does freelance stuff. His peers were making 35-50 per hour. He was charging 15/hr. We argued.
          He moved to 20/hr and stayed there for a while. We argued.
          Then he moved to 25/hr. By this point his peers were getting well over 50 /hr.

          In an odd twist to this story, he decided to bump to $30 per hour on his own. I think what happened was he had to see himself being of that value to people. One thing he does is try to figure out how he can give each job added value. You may find that you can get your thinking to shift from “I am not worth this money’ to “how can I give my employer the most value for what they are paying me?” This gives the brain something new to chew on for a while.

    9. Leela*

      I’m not sure if this has been brought up yet but spitting is assault in some places! If your HR won’t do anything about it you’re still able to report it to the police as assault

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        I wasn’t the one spit on (it was another coworker in the department, but I don’t interact with them) so I don’t know if I’d be comfortable reporting it for them! I’m not sure if someone else told them they can do that though, but I hope so.

    10. triplehiccup*

      Unless there’s a network connection with a toxic boss (like with job #1), there’s literally no harm in applying. Even the time spent on your resume and cover letter isn’t sunk, because you can generally reuse at least part of those materials.

      More broadly: I can’t think of a reason why a pay increase would be a sign NOT to apply as long as you meet a good portion of the requirements. In fact a new job is generally by far the best way to grow your salary. Even increases much larger than 10k are also not red flags of your ineligibility. For example, I doubled my salary going from service industry to teaching high school (22k to 45k), then got a 30% increase going into research for an education consultancy (50k to 65), then a 70% increase with my newest education-related job at a federal agency (74k to 122). Granted it’s a little different because I was taking on different roles altogether, but I hope it’s useful to see some actual numbers since that’s not something we typically share with people. Basically: embrace your “worth” even if you have to fake it til you make it!

      Most broadly: imposter syndrome is a real thing but it doesn’t have to determine your life decisions. You didn’t ask for advice on how to deal with it, but I hope you won’t mind me sharing what has worked for me: coming to deeply realize that I can be afraid and intimidated and yet still do the thing that scares and intimidates me. Embrace the evidence of your competence and abilities. Experiment with different ways to tolerate fear so that you can live with it and not for it or within its confines. Find low-stakes situations to practice doing things that scare you and experiencing failure so you can handle fear and failure when the stakes are higher. At this point I’ve kinda rewired myself so that I’m more drawn to activities and decisions that scare me, and it’s been a really enriching change.

      Best of luck finding a new and better job!

      1. Can I apply for this job?*

        Oh wow! This was so helpful, thank you! It is SUPER helpful to see the numbers, I really appreciate that. Would you say you’re mid career? Or pretty senior into your career? I think it would also help me to think about timelines too! And I also appreciate your advice on the imposter syndrome. I hadn’t thought about it that way, but you’re right, almost everything I’ve done so far I’ve been pretty afraid of it, but I still do it and I haven’t been fired! Or made to step down from a volunteer position. Thank you for your encouragement!

        1. triplehiccup*

          Glad it was helpful and I didn’t overstep! I’m sure you have lots of great proof that you can thrive in new or overwhelming situations and hope that you can appreciate that about yourself!

          I’m early/mid-career? I switched from service industry to education 9 years ago. I taught full-time for 5 years and then worked a year part-time while I finished up a master’s in statistics. That got me the consultancy job (research and evaluation analyst was my title), which I worked for 2 years 9 months. My new role uses my education and R&E background but isn’t exactly like anything I’ve done before; basically each job built on previous related, but not identical, experience (I had tutored for many years before teaching). I’m hoping to be a federal lifer and get variety from my passion projects.

    11. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Apply to both! Even if you have a 10% chance of getting Job #2 (which I suspect is not true—you’re probably a stronger candidate than you realize), that’s more than the 100% chance of not getting it if you don’t apply. There’s really nothing to lose from pursuing both opportunities, except that you may land with a job that pays you better, is more fulfilling, and takes you further away from toxic people.

    12. wondHRland*

      Definitely go for # 2. Just because it’s more money does’t mean you’re not qualified -that’s how most of the world gets decent raises these days!. also, since you work in Govt currently, you’re probably underpaid compared to market.
      If you want to apply to #1 as well, just be aware that your current boss may hear about it, and if he/she is a toxic manager, it could impact you negatively if you don’t get the job.

    13. Quinalla*

      Definitely apply for both, don’t be afraid of the salary bump of #2. You said you are underpaid so a 10k bump I wouldn’t even blink at. I was so underpaid at my last job that my bump for my new job was just over $20k and I was hoping for at least $10k. Impostor syndrome is a real bear sometimes, but you’ve got this! Worst case as others have said you don’t get the job, but you have to throw your hat in to have any chance. Nothing wrong with failing to get the job, there are lots of reasons that happens that really have nothing to do with you. And if you do get an offer, don’t just ask for the lowest salary or accept whatever they offer, do your research and see what makes sense. And don’t forget benefits, vacation and other perks. If there is something important you want, ask for it! I asked for more vacation time and I’m so, so glad I did as I really value vacation time, but yours might be something else.

    14. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Apply for both, and if both say yes take #2. And rub it back in when you go spit on the plebes at your prevoius work. Nott that you would actually do it, just figuratively.

    15. Observer*

      Apply to both jobs.

      You know you’ve been underpaid, so why should you think that a job that pays more than you are getting now is “overpaying”? Keep on reminding yourself that this pay bump would simply be bringing you up to market levels.

      As for the other job, I get why you would not ever want to talk to your boss again. On the other hand, if you did have to work with her to some extent, you would be in enough of a different situation that it shouldn’t have to be terrible. And, if everything checks out otherwise, it would have to be better than what you are dealing with now.

  8. TheBean*

    Hi, I was wondering if y’all could help me with an academic job/CV question.
    I am applying to an academic job. This job states that Experience in programming language X is a plus- I have experience in X, but haven’t touched it in 15 years. While I’m confident I could pick it up again- it would take some effort.
    I was thinking about putting the job and the dates that I used X on my CV and say “used X to blablabla” but not list it under my current skills. Does this make sense or should I leave the job off completely. I had been leaving this job off my CV (because it was only for 2 years and it happened 15 years ago).
    Thanks.

    1. Dear liza dear liza*

      Put it on. An academic CV is much more comprehensive than a resume, so it won’t look weird. Plus, hiring in academia often involves a points system, usually in a rubric, so it’s to your advantage to address every required and preferred element. Good luck!

      2. TheBean*

        Sorry, I meant to type more!
        Thanks, I’m not sure if it makes a difference because its a postdoc job and I’m sending it directly to the PI. But I’m going to put it in there anyways.

        1. blackcat*

          I’d include an explanation of how you used it in your email to the PI, which will serve as a cover letter.

      3. I want to be Amy Santiago too*

        Put it on! I just got a job partly because of experience I had (checks calendar) 19 years ago. Well, I got the interview because of that, and no interview, no job.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Glad to hear this! I’m going after jobs that require my best skills, which I haven’t used professionally for some time. I got sidetracked into a more admin-sounding job (it’s not traditional admin, but the title makes it sound so, but that’s another story…) during the recession and am trying to get back to where I want to be. It’s been so easy to put myself out of the running by thinking “Oh, they’d never hire me…why bother trying?”

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Absolutely this. Put the prior job on your CV and mention your use of the programming language they’re seeking. Unlike a resume, there’s no real penalty for a CV being incredibly long (especially if it’s accurate), and folks often prefer to see the long-term themes running throughout your employment history.

    2. deesse877*

      Agree that it should be present. I also recommend that you look up sample CV’s for your field; in mine, both a comprehensive list of positions and a separate list of skills are common. More generally, where most resumes are supposed to communicate something relevant to the job quickly, CV’s are usually taken as the story of your entire career, and read somewhat more closely.

    3. Ama*

      I second putting it on. If you get called for an interview and it is a really key piece of the job it will likely come up and then you can explain the exact circumstances.

      I would especially do this with academic jobs (I used to work in academia and helped facilitate the filling of several positions) because some universities have such byzantine rules around their job descriptions that that “experience with X a plus” might have been put in several years ago and might be a much more minor part of the job now. I know the university I used to work for required a huge review process for even a tiny change to any existing job’s description (that took months because our central HR was notoriously slow), so a lot of departments would just post whatever the old description was if they didn’t have three months to wait for HR to approve the change.

      (My other piece of advice is to make sure if you’re called for an interview you make sure you get a good understanding of the job as it is now and don’t assume the job description is accurate.)

    4. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I list mainframe FOCUS, doing JCL’s on an OS/360, and COBOL (even my professor passed me promising I never went into programming rather than BI). And that is last century so 20 years ago. However I was an eunuch, not a lord ( erm, pronouncing unix and a random Galactica reference). But as opposed to any millenial script kiddie, I’d be happy in the green glow as I understand the jnderlying tech… a bit like riding a bicycle.

      And I still would do it rather stick my head in a bucket of glue… erm… do windows admin and .Net

  9. Susan K*

    I posted in an open thread in January (link to the post in reply) about my coworker, Fergus, who left a huge backlog when he got promoted to management and I took over his old job. I promised an update in 6 months, so here it is!

    I talked to my manager about the situation. I had been concerned that, since Fergus is such a smooth talker, my manager wouldn’t believe me or would think I was blowing things out of proportion. It turns out my manager was aware that Fergus is a dirtbag and left things in bad shape for me, but at the same time, didn’t seem all that concerned. Fergus did mislead him about some things (he told my manager that he “trained” me or “helped” me with a lot of things, when the extent of his training/help was to forward me an e-mail or randomly mention something in passing), but my manager at least understood my general situation. He told me to prioritize the projects first (since they have fairly rigid deadlines), learning the job, and keeping up with the current work. For catching up on the backlog, he said to review and file the records in a reasonable timeframe, and no big rush to review old data.

    My original strategy was to keep up with my current workload while gradually catching up with the backlog, but then Fergus told my manager that I had to review all of the records from 2018 by the first week of March before I prepared my annual report to the regulatory agency, because if any of the records needed corrections (and many of them did), the data in my report would be wrong. I had to put my current workload on hold to catch up on the backlog of 100+ document reviews. The upside was that my manager approved me to work 20 hours of paid overtime just to work on document reviews (normally, we do not get paid overtime — just comp time, which is worthless to me), which was a good start, but not nearly enough, and I fell behind on my current work while focusing on the document backlog. Fergus did help me with the annual report because the report covers the previous calendar year and my manager told him he was still responsible for the 2018 report (good thing, because he had not prepared or organized any of the information that goes into it over the course of the year). Really, things could have been worse — Fergus could have gotten a job at another company and left me to figure out everything on my own, so I am grateful for the few things he has done to help.

    A couple of weeks after my open thread post, Fergus reassigned another 20+ projects to me in one week. I made a spreadsheet listing all of the projects that he had reassigned to me and what percentage of the original timeframe was left on each when reassigned. I haven’t shown it to my manager because he doesn’t really care as long as I don’t miss any deadlines. I had to get extensions on a few projects for things that were completely outside of my control (weather constraints, needing new software that was delayed in being released, etc.), which sucks because I lose points on my performance review for even a single extension, but not as much as missing a deadline. I have finished most of the projects Fergus reassigned to me, so now I’m mainly working on new projects.

    I still get blindsided with nasty surprises from time to time. Fergus will forward me an e-mail, and when I look through the whole e-mail chain, I will see that someone who didn’t know that I am now the Teapot Spout Analyst had repeatedly e-mailed him about spouts for months, and he just ignored it until it was overdue or causing a delay with someone else’s project, at which point he finally forwarded it to me. Fergus will also frequently tell me about long-standing spouts issues that he didn’t feel the need to address when he was in charge of spouts, but now that they’re my problem, he thinks they need to be addressed now.

    I go in early and stay late almost every day, and work from home for several hours every weekend, and I have finally gotten to a point where I can breathe and I’m not constantly down to the wire on a project deadline. I have reviewed and filed over 300 documents in the last 6 months, completely caught up on the document backlog Fergus left for me, and at one point completely cleared my document review queue (this was short-lived, though — as soon as I cleared my queue, another 30 documents came in all at once). I am up to date on reviewing current data (which I do every week), but haven’t done much with the old data that Fergus never reviewed. I didn’t mention this before, but there was a department reorganization when I became Teapot Spout Analyst, which resulted in me doing the workload that 1.5 people used to do, in addition to catching up on Fergus’s backlog. The dream is that, one day, I will be caught up enough that I can have my weekends back. My manager has not really checked in at all on how I am doing with catching up on the backlog, other than occasionally ask me when I’m going to finish a project when the deadline is approaching. Fergus was able to get away with his slacking because nobody else at the company knows much about spouts, so they just trusted him to do his job correctly, and I think my manager has the same attitude toward me.

    2. RandomU...*

      This is great that you’ve kept track of all of this. Might I suggest sending this type of update to your boss on a regular basis. So maybe monthly or quarterly.

      I would want to know if my employee has been working this hard and the results. I would also talk to your boss about slowing down some of the weekends. The silver lining is fairly soon you shouldn’t be subject to the Fergus Tsunami’s of old and overdue work.

    3. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      I think you need to have a meeting with your manager and show him your spreadsheets and how much work that you have accomplished over the past six months. Include the documentation of where Fergus did not pass the needed information along in a timely manner. Your manager sounds disengaged if he is not regularly checking your workload with you. It’s also in your best interest because it sounds like Fergus may throw you under the bus again and manage to take credit for all the catch-up work that you have done.

      1. Ama*

        Seconded. The fact that Fergus is still “finding” projects he should have handed over to you when he first changed jobs AND that he isn’t bothering to forward important emails to you until months later is a HUGE problem and one your manager should know about.

      2. Tallulah in the Sky*

        This. So much. Your manager needs to be kept in the loop, don’t wait for him to check in. And when he does, don’t just give him the bare minimum. Does he know how much time (early mornings, late nights, week-ends) you’ve spend on this ? The issues Fergus is still causing ? Have you talked to someone about Fergus’s tendency to letting things go until the last minute and expecting you to save the day ?

        I’m not saying this to berate you, but it feels like you’ve taken on a lot, and aside from that first conversation with your boss, just took on everything and dealt with it quietly, putting in a ton of hours and energy and stress. Something tells me you think you have to be able to handle it all without bothering your manager with it, but that’s not right. It’s not a bother, it’s part of his job. Ideally, you would have kept your manager updated on the extra workload you got and the fact that you don’t have enough time to do your “old” job and the new tasks. When you realised you’d have to ask for extensions, you could have gone to your manager and explain the situation instead of just taking the hit. When Fergus repeatedly set you up to fail, you could have gone to your manager to find a solution to this, since this makes your job fairly difficult (after trying to talk to Fergus first, of course).

        All this falls under your manager’s job. But he can’t do that if he doesn’t know the full situation. If you’re still putting in more hours than others, please consider to go to your manager to talk about your workload and how to get it back to something reasonable (meaning, something that won’t result in burn out in another six months). I would also report the issues you’ve had doing your job right when Fergus isn’t doing his. Because right now, everything that falls through the cracks reflects on you, not on him.

        1. Susan K*

          My manager has some idea of the extra time I’m working. It’s really kind of annoying because every day, as he walks past my desk at the end of the day, he says, “Susan, go home!” in a half-joking tone of voice, like, wink wink, I’m telling you to go home even though I know you always stay late because you have such a huge workload.

          One day, he actually stopped at my desk and asked why I always stay late, what’s going on that I can’t finish all of my work during regular hours. I explained to him that I’m still catching up on the backlog Fergus left, that I’m spending hours of extra time on document reviews every week because they were not done correctly and I either have to correct them myself or send them back to the teapot makers for corrections, that I’ve had to deal with unexpected crises like X, Y, and Z. His answer was basically, “Oh,” and he never asked me about it again.

          He has been very nice about giving me extensions. I decided to wait until my performance review to see if I need to show him my spreadsheet, because I get the sense that he may not count the extensions in my performance review, since he recognizes that I have only requested extensions for things that were beyond my control.

          I have mentioned some of the problems that Fergus is causing, like the last-minute e-mail forwards, and my manager doesn’t have much of a response to any of it, other than, “That’s not good,” or “Keep up the good work.” I think he just doesn’t know enough about spouts to know whether I’m doing a good job, so he assumes everything is cool unless I am missing deadlines or holding up other people’s work.

          1. Temperance*

            I honestly don’t think waiting is a good idea. You’re having to ask for extensions solely because Fergus was promoted. That’s … messed up. Think about it: he’s now promoted above you, and did a crap job when he was actually working.

            Your boss needs to know exactly what Fergus is dumping on you. I think maybe Fergus’ boss needs to know, too.

          2. SarahKay*

            Honestly, I would show him the spreadsheet ahead of your performance review.
            I don’t know how your performance reviews work, but for my company the reviews are all written up and approved by grand-boss before they get delivered to us. It’d be a lot easier for my boss to give me a good review if he knows in advance how many obstacles I’ve had to overcome, rather than me sharing it during the review and him having to revise it from mediocre to excellent, and get grand-boss to approve the revision, and so on.

            1. Farm Girl*

              I totally agree with this. It is too late by performance review time. Include it in your self appraisal, but give him months of notice now. You wouldn’t believe how far in advance that management calculates raises or ranks people.

              1. Jadelyn*

                “You wouldn’t believe how far in advance that management calculates raises or ranks people.”

                This. We open up the tools to calculate raises starting in December. They’re not due until mid-February and the employees get their raises in March. From an employee perspective, they’re thinking end of February/early March is when they’d need to bring this info to their manager, but it would be far too late at that point because the budget would’ve already been allocated back in January sometime.

          3. Filosofickle*

            I don’t think it’s “nice” that he’s been giving extensions. Those extensions are necessary due to your workload, not a favor to you.

            1. Susan K*

              Yeah, I know it’s not a favor to me and he’s not granting the extensions to be nice, but what I meant by that is that every time I have asked for an extension, he grants it without question, and he has indicated that he knows that it’s not my fault that I need the extension.

              1. Lavinia*

                Given how much extra work you’re doing, and how you’re cleaning up the messes left by Fergus, of course your manager grants you extensions without judging you. It’s in his best interests to keep you happy! You are making his job very easy.

                It seems to me that you perhaps don’t realize your value at your workplace. Your manager is doing the bare minimum and you are working an excessive amount. Imagine how others would react in your situation. Could you be taking on too much and being too nice about it, when others would be more assertive and establish stronger boundaries? Are you hesitant to demand better treatment from your manager?

                I think you may find that your willingness to work so hard won’t be recognized by your employer unless you explicitly show them how you’re saving them money. Honestly it seems like you are doing the work of 2 people from your description.

                1. Evergreen*

                  Perhaps I’d go a step further and say that actually your manager has shown that the way to get promoted is to *not* do this work. What did Fergus prioritise instead of this that got him his promotion? I would focus my time and energy on that (and maybe job hunting?)

                  You should be tremendously proud of the work you’ve done to catch up! But parley that into a better job!!!! Don’t wait for your current manager’s kudos!

              2. Single squirrel eating a soft pretzel*

                Have you taken any pto since fergus was promoted? Vacation, even a short one is necessary – especially considering you’ve sacrificed your weekends and evenings.

          4. DaffyDuck*

            You really need to let him know how much extra work you are putting in and the status of all these items! Do this NOW before your performance review! And I certainly hope you are getting compensated for this extra work, and not donating your evenings and weekend hours to the company. If you don’t mention it they will EXPECT you to do this amount of work, at this compensation, forever.

          5. BenAdminGeek*

            I’m going out on a limb here based on your updates, so I might be way off. But it sounds like you’re being way less direct with your manager than you think you have been. If these things had happened with one of my direct reports and she’d said what you’re saying, it would sound workable to me- like this was a problem she was solving.

            I worry that either :
            a) you catch up on the backlog and are super burned out and no one cares, because they didn’t understand the effort involved. Then comes your review, and you get half the credit you deserve.
            b) you can’t catch up because Fergus keeps “finding” things that prolong this matter, and your boss becomes frustrated with you, because you’re always behind.

            I think you need to be super clear with your boss, lay out everything that’s gone on, and then lay out what you need- just to understand, documentation of what’s expected of you, a big raise, etc. Maybe nothing good comes of it, but at least you’ve documented the issue.

          7. Zombeyonce*

            Like everyone says, don’t wait! But not just because you need help, but because you want to make sure that none of the extensions on Fergus’ old projects are going to count against you. Even if that’s a normal thing to happen, you inheriting unfinished and late projects means you should be exempt from demerits for them being late.

            Don’t just tell your boss about what you’re currently doing, make sure they know that Fergus continues to send old work to you and the full range of what it is, so what you currently have to finish now is not counting everything Fergus will send to you in the near future. Even if you catch on on this work, you’ll just get more piled on. It sounds like Fergus dropped the ball on his job for a long time so you could have a couple of years of catching up to do just to get back to a baseline, which is unreasonable.

          8. June First*

            You don’t want your manager to think you’re working all those extra hours because you can’t properly manage your time. I suspect Fergus would be no help. “I don’t know why she can’t get it done during her normal work hours. I had no problems finishing my work.” Blatantly false, but from your description I can see that happening.

          9. Single squirrel eating a soft pretzel*

            You need to meet with your manager for 1:1 monthly or bimonthly. You need to go over your accomplishments and frame them as such, while detailing your work plan for the next month while you also ask for more overtime to so that you are not working 80 hour weeks. Maybe frame it as this is my work plan, and I would like 10 hours ot in the bank for any additional surprises from fergus

      3. ..Kat..*

        Please include the number of hours of over time that you are working. I am angry that you are putting in all this extra time, you are getting dinged for HIS work problems in your performance review, and he looks wonderful. Every time he sends you more of his undone work, your boss (and his boss) need to know. Can you push back- if your boss had to do some of this work, would you get better reviews? Your boss is feeling no pain because you are working so hard. He needs to appreciate better what you are doing. What would he do if you left? I think you should do whatever you can to cut your hours back to normal and make him worry that you will quit for something better. Really, what would he do if you left or were hit by a bus? The solution should not be overworking you for over six months and then giving you a lower performance rating because Fergus didn’t do his work.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Please show your spreadsheet to your supervisor. That is exactly the kind of analytical data a manager needs to evaluate workload – authorize OT, bring in additional help, prioritize (do A and B, forget about C), and more importantly, to look at the overall process. Why did no one figure out that Fergus hadn’t completed his work? Who or what system tracks this work and its due dates? If none, probably need to add a mechanism. I think your workload far exceeds what one person can reasonably handle, but without quantifying data, management has no case to get you some relief. Six months is waaay too long to be doing catchup. OT should be an occasional thing, not a way of life.

      The next time Fergus emails you, bounce it straight to your supervisor. Fergus is still up to his old tricks; ducking work by foisting it on you. Let your supervisor handle these requests.

      1. Susan K*

        I get the sense that my manager doesn’t want to know this kind of information — as long as I’m not missing any deadlines and he’s not hearing of any other problems I’m causing, he figures there’s no problem, so why should he worry about it? There is a tracking mechanism for projects, and that seems to be his main indication of how I’m doing. I have a hard enough time getting him to respond to things I really need that I hesitate to start sending him stuff that he doesn’t even care about.

        I am concerned about setting up expectations, like what happens if I get hit by a bus and they need to replace me and they don’t realize that most people won’t be able to keep up with that workload without working extra hours? But right now, that is obscured by the time I’ve been spending catching up on the backlog — my manager assumes that this is a temporary situation and I will eventually catch up on the backlog and it won’t be a problem anymore. That might even be true, but it will be hard to know until I reach an equilibrium where I only have to keep up with the current work and I don’t have to do extra catch-up work.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Reframe your first sentence. 1) It’s your manager’s job to know and deal with this info, and 2) you are not causing problems, you are trying to fix someone else’s screw-up.

          More importantly, six months is NOT a temporary effort. You have been trying to catch up for 6 months and it hasn’t happened. It’s not going to happen. There aren’t enough hours in the day. It’s okay to tell your supervisor that the workload is unsustainable for one person. It’s okay to tell supervisor, “I want to work on my own stuff. Find someone else to catch up on Fergus’s crap – I need a break.” It’s okay not to work on the weekend. It’s okay to do what you can for 8 hours, clock out, and go home at the end of the day. If you find another job, the company will limp along until someone is hired.

          This is not a healthy work environment. Wouldn’t it be better to spend all of this energy looking for a role where you’ll be appreciated and not overworked?

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          To be blunt, too bad for your manager. It is a manager’s job to 1) be aware of these issues and 2) to find solutions to those issues. Do you have any relationship to your grandboss? They should be looped in if your manager doesn’t seem to care.

          As other have stated in other threads, the only way this whole situation is going to be fixed is if you make it a problem your manager has to deal with. It sounds like you’re hourly, so not being given overtime is illegal AND is setting up false impressions, which ACTIVELY HARMS the organization.

          Rhetorical question: Why in the world was Fergus promoted? Some idiotic “Maybe with more responsibility Fergus will do better work” thinking we’ve heard of elsewhere?

          1. Susan K*

            I am an exempt employee, so the unpaid extra hours are not illegal.

            It has been a bit of a surprise to realize how little my manager checks up on my work, although I guess it shouldn’t have been considering that Fergus got away with slacking on his work for so long. We were supposed to have a mid-year evaluation recently, and my manager sent all of us teapot analysts a self-evaluation questionnaire. It had questions about what accomplishments we’ve had since the last review, what our strengths and weaknesses are, and what help we need to be able to do our jobs more effectively. I mentioned a lot of this stuff (accomplishments of catching up on the backlog, completing huge numbers of projects, needing help with improving the quality of the reports I get from the teapot makers, etc.), and I am almost certain that he never read it.

            Fergus was promoted because he’s a smooth talker and a charming guy, and he convinced my grand-boss that he was amazing at his job and deserved a promotion. My grand-boss is very much into a strict chain of command, so he trusts the managers under him implicitly. Fergus is his right-hand man and he takes anything negative that is said about Fergus (which is a lot, mostly from Fergus’s subordinates) with a grain of salt.

            1. Abigail*

              This extra information means it’s doubly important for you to document what you are doing. Your manager is not doing their job and you could very well suffer the unfair consequences of that for a loooong time.

              Since Fergus seems protected and guaranteed to keep his job despite being terrible at it…who would you talk to if your work is not recognized by your manager? What happens if your manager decides to maintain the status quo?

              Please think about this. From the outside it looks like you were selected to work there because you’re excellent at what you do, and can be relied on to fix the mess left by Fergus. I think you may not get the same loyalty from the company as Fergus clearly does. Maybe you should think about putting your own wellbeing ahead of everyone else’s so you don’t burn out.

        3. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          So what happens if you *did* get hit by a bus? It’s not your problem that they wouldn’t find someone who would even *attempt* to keep up with this workload, not by any stretch of the imagination. It’s your manager’s problem, and your managers ALONE (your only problem would be recovering from the bus crash and that would be enough)
          Let’s take bus accidents out of it – what happens if you want to take a week’s holiday? Have you *had* a week off since you gained this overload? Was any of your work covered, or is it just expected that you’ll add *that* unfinished work to the backlog as well?
          The situation is untenable. *PLEASE* tell your manager what is going on. It’s HIS JOB to know these things, to manage your workload and the obstacles you face to enable you to do YOUR JOB.

          1. Susan K*

            No, I haven’t taken a single vacation day in 2019 yet, but when I do, just like always, it will be up to me to make up the work. I also have to do that when I’m gone for a conference or training. But that’s true for a lot of exempt employees, including all of my teapot analyst coworkers.

            Part of the department reorg that resulted in me doing the work that used to be done by 1.5 people was to create a new position for a floating teapot analyst. The idea is for this person to help with any emergent crises so that the other analysts’ workload doesn’t get excessive. The person who is doing this job is great — the most senior teapot analyst who has lots of experience with handles, lids, and coatings…. but not spouts, so he will be able to help everyone except me.

            1. TexasRose*

              You have three problems, it seems to me:
              1. You have no backup, and no coverage . You need to highlight this to your boss ASAP. This is your boss’s problem to solve, not yours.
              2. You are already overscheduled, and have NO relief in sight. This is NOT sustainable. In the long term, this is your boss’s problem. See previous point.
              3. Fergus _continues_ to cause you problems by NOT DOING HIS JOB – that, handing off problems to you IN A TIMELY manner.
              EVERY time Fergus sends one of his stink bombs (which would not be stink bombs if he simply forwarded them sooner rather than later), immediately raise the problem flag. The first time, simply list the problem, and ask your boss to ask Fergus to be more on top of forwarding things to you. You might also want to make a Fergus stink-bomb backlist – not the stuff he left behind when he was promoted, but the stuff he’s neglected to forward after the transition. Point out that this is an ONGOING problem. It sounds like Fergus is STILL not doing his job, just enjoying the Grandboss’s grace.
              On points 1 and 2 – this is a _planning_ problem for management. Pick a time for your vacation, perferably several months in adance, and point out to your manager that you have no backup, and will have NO TIME to simply take a week off and catch up later. Ask him how to handle the fact that you cannot get your complete compensation, since you cannot take time off because you have no backup. (Alison has good scripts for this.)
              On a general note, this job sounds like a great opportunity to you, and it sounds like you still like what you’re doing. If you want to keep the job, you need to push back on your “know nothing” boss. Frame your requests as pointing out problems in the organization that need to be fixed for the long-term good of the department. Give your boss all the ammunition he needs to get you some help with little effort, and he might be more motivated to at least get you some vacation coverage. (He might have a bit of sorta willful blindness about “missing” covering your position.)

              1. Gumby*

                Late to the game but also: you are now set up as a single point of failure for your company. That is horrible for the company. And you. It makes it harder to promote you because no one can do the work you currently do. Also if you were to, say, take another job, your company would be stuck. (My company is small and currently in this situation: someone is leaving who is the only person who has been building widgets. Trying to do the knowledge transfer in 2 weeks for this is a massive undertaking and we absolutely won’t get it all done. Since building a widget is a 3-month process, there is no time to shadow the whole thing. It is a mess. And all because we allowed Wilhelmina to become the only widget-builder here.)

        4. Jadelyn*

          If your manager really doesn’t want to know this stuff, then tbh…that’s just too damn bad. That’s what managing entails, and if he doesn’t want to do it, he shouldn’t be managing.

          I want to say this as kindly as possible bc I’m hearing so much of my past self in what you’re saying, but: please, please stop throwing yourself down into the puddles so that your boss can walk on your back and not get his shoes wet. You’re worried about “causing your manager extra work” but Susan K, that’s your manager’s job. That’s what he’s getting paid to do.

          If it helps, I’ll also tell you that most of the managers I know would be pissed if something happened to one of their direct reports and they got blindsided by a wildly unsustainable workload that the person had been trying to wrestle into submission alone, rather than reaching out for help or at least keeping them informed. You think you’re doing your manager a favor, but in the long run, you’re really not. Long-term, it’ll be better for both you and the manager to be upfront and transparent about all this stuff.

        5. Jasnah*

          I encourage you to reframe this as “my manager trusts me to manage my own workload and let him know when there is a problem (like a backlog, overtime, delay, etc.)”

          I don’t think you’ve let him know about this bigger problem: your workload being continuously impeded by Fergus. He just sees you successfully clearing the backlog and working a lot. Maybe he should be more proactive about managing your workload, but maybe he thinks you can handle it, and that you would alert him if you couldn’t.

          Have you laid all this out for him and asked for what you need?

    5. MissGirl*

      Honestly find a new job. This isn’t going to change. They know you can get the work done, Fergus knows you’ll pick up his slack. No one is incentivized to change anything but you.

      1. Agent J*

        +1. Susan K, you sound like a dedicated, hard worker who made a really difficult situation work. The problem is that if you don’t make a big deal out of it, your manager will just assume this is an acceptable/normal workload for you. I’ve been there and done that, and ended up leaving the job because as long as I was picking up my manager’s slack, no one thought the problem was serious enough to fix.

        Toot your own horn. Let your manager know how much work this took for you to fix. Even if your manager doesn’t do much about Fergus, at least it’s documented and brought to your manager’s attention.

        1. Annie Dumpling*

          Yeah, your organization has shown that it rewards loud horn-tooters for their potential, rather than rewarding the hard workers who actually lift large loads. Being quiet and waiting is a dead end game, it won’t happen, and seems very ‘please sir, can I have some more’. While the lax and loud zoom by.

      2. BuildMeUp*

        +1000

        Put everything you’ve done so far on your resume – ex. cleared X month backlog of reports, etc. You’ve accomplished a *ton*.

        Based on what you’ve said about your manager, it doesn’t sound like he has your back. I worry that Fergus will just keep adding things to your plate, that backlogs will keep piling up, and that your hope of having your weekends free might never happen.

        Start looking at what else is out there. It doesn’t mean you need to leave right away, but you should know your options.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      This is a case where I think you should be sending your manager a weekly email that lists what you’ve done this week and what in the backlog you’re planning on working on the next week. Let the manager know every week what you’ve done and are going to do.

      And as for your weekends, start taking them anyway. If they really want the work done, they’ll give you more paid overtime. You’re taking all of management’s pain on yourself, and it should be theirs to figure out. If they really want the work done, it shouldn’t be you doing it for free on your weekends.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed, working a few hours extra here and there while salaried (I assume you are?) is no big deal, but working every weekend! That’s not sustainable. You need to keep your boss updated on what is going on and how much you are working. This isn’t even things he necessarily needs to respond to every time, just things you put in front of him so he knows how much you are working so he can put in for a new hire, put in for more overtime for you if the backlog isn’t getting done fast enough, or just have a realistic idea of what all you are doing (trust me, he likely does not really get it, yeah he knows you work late, but he is not understanding the extent) so you get some kind of credit come review time in the form or raise/bonus/etc.

        Do NOT wait until your review, get in front of this now. If he acts unconcerned, still keep telling him. It will make a difference in how he perceives you.

    7. Windward*

      The six month mark is a good time to talk with your boss about how things are going. You sound very conscientious & hard working, but also as if you don’t advocate for the work & yourself. It’s best for your company if you can do that, as it supports a better understanding of how things are going, what might need streamlining or realignment, staffing in general including reclassification of positions as they evolve.

      First, are you exempt? If your boss authorized overtime you may not be, in which case putting in unauthorized overtime can become a large problem. It sounds like your boss know you’re working long hours, so presumably not, but this is a legal issue if you are non-exempt.

      Second, don’t wait for your review to present an update & stats on your performance. Everywhere I’ve worked raging, raises, etc have all been decided by review time. Your boss needs to know what you’ve been doing, & needs to know in time to use that for your review.

      Third, your boss needs to know what your job is & has become. He doesn’t see you working weekends, he needs to know how much work is coming in & how – i.e. Fergus sending you work that arrives in urgent status, including revamping your work plan to correct his work. Was your boss ok with this?

      Keeping your boss apprised is part of your job, too, and better serves the organization and you. All the more important following someone like Fergus. Your boss hasn’t been interested in part because he hasn’t seen the need. It can be hard to shift ones mindset from “she’s the boss, & therefor must know,” & “my work should speak for itself,” to “I’m the only one who sees this, & the decision makers can’t decide if they don’t know what’s happening.”

      Keep us posted.

    8. HappySnoopy*

      Echoing a lot of what people are saying. Boss may not want yo know, but he needs to. He knows in abstract, oh there’s a back log , but Susan K is on it.

      If it helps in your framing, set the meeting as a status. Show boss your spreadsheet of % of Fergus’s bs. Show your progress in the past 6 mths on moving/finishing/reworking, and where you’ve still got work. Explain after this time, especially with Fergus giving you surprise several month old sprout problems, you can’t sustain this pace, but this is your plan to stay on top of the 3 jobs you’re handling and see if he has any edits or suggestions.

      He needs this detailed overall wakeup call. The abstract, of yeah, susans doing a lot or oh yeah the flower spout is behind is one thing. Seeing the big picture is what he needs to give you the help you need. And to echo others again, it is boss’s job.

    9. OhBehave*

      The nasty surprises will start to taper off I would think.
      Is there a light at the end of the tunnel for you? Is this job manageable with the normal workload required? i.e. after the backlog clears.
      Your manager is ineffective. If he was any good, Fergus would never have been allowed to run amok.
      Do not wait to update your manager. Ask for another block of OT, citing (on paper) the time outside of your regular hours. You cannot maintain this pace much longer. Take back your weekends now – at least a portion. I see that time off does nothing for you. Everyone needs balance.
      When you do have a review push for a raise. YOU DESERVE IT!

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, some of it has started to taper off, like the document reviews. I have been averaging 13 reviews per week to get caught up, but now I should be able to stay caught up with 10 per week. My project list is down to one page and I have 3 weeks before the next one is due. It’s hard to tell how sustainable the “normal” workload is because I’m not quite there yet, and some of it is intertwined with the backlog. For example, some of these surprise e-mail forwards from Fergus are things that I would have had to deal with no matter what, but I should have had 3 months to work on them instead of a week.

        I have asked for more paid OT, but my manager’s response is always, “Well, does it have to be done this week?” and if not, I can just put it off until next week, and even if it actually does need to be done this week, I should put off something else until next week, and he doesn’t seem to grasp that this doesn’t help because I I already have a full plate next week.

        1. valentine*

          I think you’re acting on assumptions and can be more direct and plainspoken and less accommodating of your manager and, most of all, Fergus. And it’s time to tell your manager won’t get done. Write up a plan for a 40-hour work week, no weekends. Only go to 45 (still no weekends) if it’s necessary to complete your regular, non-Fergus, projects. Make a list of the backlog you won’t get to, the random stuff Fergus assigns you (which I don’t get because he’s not your manager), and the stuff he delays in telling you (complete with dates). Schedule a meeting to discuss these with your manager. When he says you have to do everything, tell him flat-out it’s not possible.

          Fergus, his manager, and your manager are setting you up to fail. The backlog is impossible for a single person to complete and Fergus continually sabotages you with a ton of random projects and by withholding information. Usually, I say xyz is a tax on your job, but they’re not letting you do your actual job, and it’s just not possible to do it well because you’re sacrificing your life and health just to scrape by. Is this sunk-cost fallacy? Is it the devil you know? Are there no other jobs in your area? Afraid of leaving them stranded? They’ll only be reaping what they have sown. If you leave, they’ll figure it out in a way that would’ve helped you. They just aren’t willing to do that for you, so why not leave them to it?

          It’s worth reading the government guidance on whether your role is exempt from OT, especially since you sometimes get paid OT. Don’t trust your manager/company on whether you’re properly classified.

        2. Anonymouse for this*

          I can’t tell from the updates but is your manager fully aware of all the unpaid overtime you’re doing? If his response to you asking for overtime is to tell you to put if off until next week rather than pay you overtime and then, without telling him, you do the work unpaid over the weekend then he’s never going to know it’s a problem. In fact if he’s oblivious to the hours you are actually working he may be thinking why was she asking about overtime when she clearly didn’t need it. Please please start sending him weekly updates with everything you have done to date (so he knows what a Fergus sized mess you had to clean up) and everything you have planned for the next month. And let him know how much extra work Fergus is still creating because of his incompetence. If he is a decent manager he should be worried that you are not letting him manage and instead hiding the extent of the problem with your workload.

    10. TPS Cover Sheet*

      No seriously Susan, this shit, which is good you recorded you take to your next ”performance review” and any grief they give you.. your non-performing manager does – you tell if that performance review isn’t giving you a bonus and a raise you’ll rip him a new… erm…. well… you know what might make him care… a regulator audit?

    11. Samwise*

      You absolutely need to show your boss that spreadsheet. It’s going to be important for your annual review! And you need to keep your boss in the loop as Fergus piles more crap onto your plate. Plus, your boss needs to know how dirty a bag Fergus is. Ugh, Fergus is such a loser! I hate him for you LOL.

      Don’t wait for your boss to do a check-in — it’s been six months, time for *you* to request one. Frankly, I’d check in regularly. At least once a month, if not more often.

      Thanks for the update, I remember your letter!

      1. cmcinnyc*

        And the next time Fergus passes on something that’s no longer his job, but passes it on LATE? You reply with a cc to boss and grandboss that Fergus’s ongoing “finding” of more and more of his old work for you is unsustainable and perhaps you all need to sit down and redefine the parameters of the job. Mr. Charming is using you as a doormat. So is your manager. Stand up.

    12. FloralsForever*

      Ok so a lot of others are saying that this is horrible, maybe you should quit, etc etc… And while I generally agree that this is horrible and really sucks, what I would ask you is this: is this a step ahead in your career?

      I work in toxic environment but found my niche. My team will train me on something I need experience in to further my career. One to two more years and when I leave I’ll be asking for a 25% increase in pay. That is worth it to stick it out a bit longer. So maybe you are in this similar position? Keep it bearable until you can make it out of there in a better position than when you started? Take the experience and run? What you are doing is no small feat and once you get it to bearable levels it could be extremely marketable. I think now it would be too, but I am one who like to see things to the end, if its possible.

      That’s fantastic that you are keeping track of what you are doing, so in the future you can look back and a) tell your boss exactly what happened -or- b) market it for the future. Sometimes its great to be able to show stats and things to prospective employers.

      Anyway, it sucks to be in that kind of environment with Fergus, but it sounds like you have developed an excellent way to handle it and I hope that future employers will see that and respect you for it.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        This is an important consideration but OP should start making sure that her current employer actually understands what she is doing. Otherwise she runs the risk that her future reference will not back up the skills she is developing here.

        OP, by thinking that your manager doesn’t really care about the details and is doing you a favour by letting you work yourself to exhaustion to fix golden boy’s slacking (and in the process having your own reputation tarnished while he looks better and better), you are losing out on the credit you deserve. Your manager seems to be really vague on what exactly you are doing, and you are tiptoeing around Fergus and giving him more power over you and your work than he deserves. He is abusing his authority by dumping his work on you to avoid having to take the penalties he should be getting for not doing his work in a timely way. He may be charming but that doesn’t mean you have to accept being walked on.

        I think 6 months + the review process is a great time to give your manager a very detailed update on the backlog, the ongoing dumping projects on you at the last minute, the amount of overtime you are working, your very impressive results, and what you want to change about your workload going forward. And I think you should start giving the manager a weekly update by email. Your manager sounds really lazy and disengaged, so I think you will have to do some “managing up” to get them to understand the full picture here. It might not come to much but if you start documenting everything and being more assertive with your manager you have a better chance of ensuring that when it comes time to leave you get a good reference that reflects the reality of what you have accomplished. Not to mention an accurate performance review that doesn’t penalise you for needing extensions on projects that were dumped on you at the last minute.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Gaah, used the wrong slash. Should have just been *very detailed*.

          Also, this situation reminds me a bit of one of the problems I had with my PhD thesis. Briefly, I failed my first examination and had to revise and resubmit a year later. One of the most frustrating things was that the examiners thought I hadn’t done enough fieldwork, even though I spent months visiting sites and gathering data. I had some help from my supervisor in setting up initial contacts, but after that I was on my own — living in a country where my grasp of the language was shaky, contacting people to get them to put dots on a map so that I could go hike to the location, etc. It was actually quite a lot of work and I did it mostly alone.

          I ended up accompanying my supervisor on a long weekend trip shortly after my failed attempt, and we visited sites that I had already been to but she had never seen. But the general impression ended up being that she had to take me to these places in order to make sure I did enough fieldwork. Even though I had already explained the work I did, and had plenty of proof of that work in my original thesis, I was not being clear enough for busy and distracted people who didn’t really care that much about my work to grasp. My original writing about my data collection methods glossed over the tedious details about where I went and what I did there, and how I analysed it. When I rewrote the thesis, I spelled everything out (and I even made a table showing exactly how much time I spent in the field, with dates of travel, to take to meetings with my supervisor to document that yes I had actually done the appropriate work at a sensible time). When I resubmitted the thesis, my examiners were very impressed at how much extra work I had done in that year and were delighted at my thorough field methods. I didn’t really do any extra work, I just was more explicit about what I had done years before. And I passed on the second try with no problems.

    13. DerJungerLudendorff*

      Please take care of yourself.
      You’re working massive amounts of overtime trying to do an impossible amount of anxiety-inducing work, while constantly getting blindsided by new problems that you didn’t cause and don’t have the resources to solve.

      You are working yourself straight into a massive burnout if this goes on, and there is no indication anything will change anytime soon.

      Your manager is far too hands-off about this.
      Throw your workload problems right back at him. It’s his job to solve them, not yours.

      Also, Fergus is an incompetent, backstabbing, douchebag

  10. Cats Unlimited*

    How does one go about asking their boss to change their schedule? I work a rotating shift that includes weekends, and I think it would be much better for my health to work regular hours. But regular hours at my job are highly covered and I am not high enough to be given consideration. I might possibly be able to get a medical excuse at some point in the future, but I am not sure I am comfortable disclosing that stuff to my boss.

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like you either need the seniority or the medical excuse (not sure if you’re in the U.S. or not, since “medical excuse” sounds more CA/UK, so I won’t get into the ADA weeds). I don’t think I’d ask for those hours in the mean time, since it sounds like you can’t present a reason to bump somebody else so it would seem a little tone-deaf. Would it be useful to you to know when seniority alone would qualify you for that schedule? Because that’s a question you might legitimately ask. “Boss, I’d be interested in a fixed schedule when I’m eligible–about how long does it take people to get there?” But I also don’t know if that’s of any use to you; if your goal is to shift to this schedule ASAP, I think requesting it based on a medical reason is the avenue for you.

    2. Susan K*

      Sorry to say, but if you want a schedule change based on medical reasons, you are probably going to have to disclose something to your boss. I’m sure it would be better for your health to work regular hours, but that is true for almost everybody — even people with no medical problems. You can try asking for a schedule change without disclosing anything about your medical issues, but if there are other people who want the same thing and your boss can’t say yes to all of them, you’ll have to bring him a compelling reason to move you ahead of others. I worked in a shift work job for over 10 years, and availability for the hours you’re needed is part of the job and part of what you’re getting paid for (in my experience, jobs that require rotating shifts pay more than similar jobs with regular hours).

      If you specifically don’t want to disclose information to your boss but you’re comfortable with HR, you may be able to provide the information directly to HR and ask them not to share specifics with your boss.

    3. Gilmore67*

      Well, it is not so much disclosing the medical issue as much as it’s, what is Boss supposed to do? I mean Boss just can’t change someone someones schedule if it interrupts the work flow or let you go before someone else who has more seniority as that would be unfair to them.

      I think you can most certainly ask Boss if you can get your hours changed because you never know what Boss knows about hours, schedules and stuff like that and it might be totally possible. I hope that happens for you.

      But if you want your hours changed I think you need to possibly look for a job else where that fits your hours if Boss can’t accommodate you.

      That may be an unpopular answer but bottom line it really isn’t Boss’s problem. Like another poster said lots of people might want those types of hours as well and there is no way to accommodate everyone. I would be pretty pissed if I was up for those hours and someone was able to get ahead of me regardless of the reason.

      Again, ask Boss first ( don’t bring medical issues in the conversation ) and see the Boss says.

    4. Deanna Troi*

      I have a friend who was in this situation. She was able to get her boss to agree to schedule her regular hours every week by taking the shifts that most others didn’t want. I believe she worked Friday – Tuesday 1:00-9:00 PM. She did much better with regular hours around which she could plan her life. An advantage of this type of schedule for you, Cats Unlimited, would be that you’d be able to schedule doctor’s appointments, if you have a lot of them (I realize you may not – not everyone with health problems need to visit the doctor a lot).

  11. JessxJess*

    I don’t know if this is a mid life crisis or what but I’m finding myself just miserable with work and I don’t know how to fix it. I make very good money but I despise what I do. I used to like it but I’ve just been doing it too long and everyday feels like a chore. I dread going to work.

    My problem is I make way more money then I could possibly get looking for a new job. My choices are basically look for something else and start a lifestyle where I’m just squeaking by with not a lot of disposable income, or somehow adjust my attitude about my current job and stick it out just to collect the paycheck. My performance has been slipping to because of my new lack of motivation.

    I don’t know what to do anymore but I need help. Does anyone have any advice? Has anyone been in this same situation themselves?

    2. Anonandanon*

      I’m living this now, same situation in that I’ve been here for 15 years, make great money (and have a pension and matching 401K) but am finding myself so depressed at having to be here. I don’t like my manager, have less autonomy than I used to have, and one of my coworkers is a useless waste of space. I am also planning on leaving in three years after my husband retires from his job so I’m trying to make the best of it. I’m well-liked in my company, but much of what I do is really wearing me down. I have started a practice of taking off at least one Friday a month in those months I don’t take vacation or don’t have a holiday so I have a long weekend to NOT BE HERE and just put it out of my mind. I find it’s always nice to have something to look forward to to help make being here more bearable.

      1. RandomU...*

        I could have sworn I wrote this, but sadly I have about 8 years before I get to reevaluate my situation. Everything else is exactly the same. I’m giving myself some time to get over it, but I may be looking for a new project or job in my company soon. Mostly I’m bored and my current job isn’t presenting any new challenges at the moment.

        I agree with the one day off a month. I’ve been doing that for the past few years. But then got out of the habit. I may need to get back to that.

        1. Mockingjay*

          What about training? If your company pays for training and certs, look for something that interests you and gives you new or enhanced skills you can use on a new project. There are loads of week-long seminars that will get you away from the office.

      2. JessxJess*

        Thank you, I was mostly hoping to find someone letting me know I wasn’t alone! I think the biggest struggle is just not letting all me work slip (I’ve always been such a star performer) because I just am so depressed about the whole situation. Thanks for your comment

        1. Rezia*

          Is there a different position you could move to within your company, or some fresh project you can take on in your role just so you have a change of pace without losing your good salary/benefits?

          If not, then I think do whatever you can to make sure work time is just work, and don’t let yourself think about it/be depressed about it outside of work. Once you leave the office, don’t spend a spare minute thinking about work and focus on the stuff you love.

    3. Reba*

      I would say that if the job is tolerable and you just can’t care about it anymore (not that the work itself is untenable) … Reinvigorate some other parts of your life. Hobbies, home improvement projects, trips, whatever. Shift the focus and let your job/high income simply be the thing you do that lets you do all the stuff that you really care about!

      If you haven’t already, do some reading about burnout recovery strategies. Good luck!

      2. Dobermom*

        I second this. My day job pays fairly well, but it’s mindless. I also adjunct at a local university, so I use my day job to pay for life while the adjuncting fulfills me professionally!

    4. Cashier*

      Are you in a position (financially / your workplace would go for such a thing) that you could e.g. go down to four days a week? Maybe not forever, but for six months or something to give you a bit more room to reassess what you want / need to do and to feel less miserable bc you’ll have fewer days of drudgery each week.

    5. BeeGee*

      I’ve been here a few times, you should look for another job/career path if you get to a point where you not only dread going in to work daily but if it also leads to performance declines. I was fired from my first job because of this, and looking back, I wish I had just quit before my performance and tardiness got to be so terrible. It may seem scary and frowned upon to leave a job with nothing lined up, but if you are financially secure enough, I would quit. Your mental health is really important! I got to a point where I couldn’t even think about training/getting a certification/job searching outside of work hours because I spent my free time just doing anything to get a short term “happy fix” (like binging hours of Netflix after work) to make up for how crappy my job made me feel. If you don’t think you can leave your job, I would at a minimum plan on going on a vacation in the near future to hopefully recharge yourself.

    6. OtterB*

      Would your savings and your work/organizational culture allow an unpaid sabbatical? Get completely away from it for longer than a week’s vacation and you might get better perspective on whether you really need to make a change. It’s hard to see the big picture when you’re down in the weeds.

    7. NW Mossy*

      How’s your relationship with your boss? If it’s decent and they’re decent, they may be able to help you see options within your current workplace.

      I manage a LOT of people who face this basic dilemma – they’re relatively late in their careers and make good money, but the job itself has gotten stale over the decades. It can really help reignite the spark to have new challenges, which don’t necessarily need to take the form of a whole new job. My company currently has a huge need for people who are willing to skip around and cross-train in related areas to help with peak seasons, so we always have different types of work on offer to anyone who needs a break from their current gig.

    8. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Two things:
      1) you might want to consider is just making sure there is no physical component playing into this. I have been here before and recovered at the job (at the 10 year mark, I’m at 15 now). Turns out I did have some slowly increasing depression – very mild but the spiral got me, and some nutritional issues. Have a good physical. I was so thinking about quitting, that I went and had all my medical care caught up before I thought I was out of there… and it turned out I did have a combo of small issues (still working on some other stuff).
      2) depending upon your age, it may also be a good time to examine – as others have noted – your life outside of work. I had made my entire existence work and caretaking. I’m now looking forward, saying when I retire, I am not going to sprint to the finish and fall over the finish line… I want to retire TO something. What have I done with my life that builds social and other connections outside of work? I am trying to enrich so I can define myself by something other than my “job.” Just starting this, but if you are not investing in yourself and your future, it might be good to use this “I can do this job with one hand tied behind my back” place in your life, to stretch you brain and your life outside of work.
      Understand and empathize!

    9. Samwise*

      This is my brother. I feel really sad for him, and I feel sad for you, too.

      What is important to you? What do you value? What do you want, what do you need?

      I also wonder if your choices really are, make a pile of money but hate my job, and, do something different while scraping by financially. Do some research — what kinds of jobs are available to someone with your skills and experience?

      Can you start saving money and trimming your budget/lifestyle now? How much less can you live on?

      1. Samwise*

        I say “are these really your options” because I had that conversation with my brother. I pointed out that I had a lot of the things he thinks are important (own a house with a yard, go out to eat and to culture-y things, save for kid’s college, etc.) and I earn about 25% of what he does (I’m somewhat underpaid and he makes a lot of money! but I like my job and he does not like his).

    10. Lena Clare*

      It’s said that you need 2 out of 3 things to be happy at work:
      – good pay
      – enjoy your job
      – get on with your coworkers.

      If you only have one of those things, the stress will tell eventually. Maybe it’s already telling now?

      Therapy would be good, to talk about it and help you decide what is important.

      Would studying and getting other qualifications help you get another like for like job somewhere you’d be happier?
      Would you consider volunteering to gain some extra skills in order to make yourself more attractive for other similarly paying jobs?
      Would you be able to work part-time at this job, and part time at another job which you liked but paid less in order to make yourself happier?

      I hope it works out for you.

      1. Lena Clare*

        I also agree with the comment upstream about looking at fulfilling hobbies and other activities outside of work. It definitely helps.

    11. Brihanne LeMarre*

      I feel you, JessxJess. This is me.

      I’ve been at my company for 2o+ years (in my current position for 3) and there’s no way I could make enough money elsewhere to manage my lifestyle (and debt load), especially now that I’m responsible for half a household (I moved in with my bf – now fiancé – and his 3 kids).

      The suggestions to focus on things outside work have epically backfired for me. I did pick up a new hobby and it is so exciting and important to me that it actively interferes with my work-time brain-space and is a leading reason why my performance has tanked. All I want to do is think, talk and participate in it.

      Re: Time off/breaks: I get a lot of vacation and I use every single minute of it each year. I’ve had longer breaks (some vacations, some medical leaves) and they just make it even harder to return because I’ve had even more time to get accustomed to the lifestyle I WISH I had.

      I’m entirely over my working life and am, quite literally, counting down the years to retirement. It makes me angry with myself because I am very good at what I do, I just don’t give a flying f**k about doing it ever again. But, I’m well and truly caught in my golden handcuffs, so I slog through each day.

    12. Sleepy*

      I’m gonna throw out there that making less money is not the end of the world. I make less than most of my friends. Sometimes it sucks that they go on fancy European vacations and I don’t. Most of the time I don’t care. I live farther away from the city center than most of them would consider acceptable, but I’ve grown to love my new neighborhood and I’ve gotten in better shape with my longer bike commute. Of course, if I was living near the poverty line things would be different, but if you make really good money already and you’re looking at having to cut back, you can still live a rich and enjoyable life.

      1. Brihanne LeMarre*

        You’re right, making less money isn’t the end of the world; but, I’m trying to raise three children and we are already living paycheque-to-paycheque. We’re not talking sacrificing a “fancy European vacation”. We’re talking sacrificing food, missing rent, or debts going into collections.

        I make good money for the job I do in the market I live in. I do not make “good money” by any other standard, ESPECIALLY in the market I live in.

    13. ..Kat..*

      Can you get training in something that interests you that would qualify you for a job that would not cut your pay?

    14. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Well, money IS important. That said, there’s a difference between “I don’t love my job but I love the money, so it’s OK overall” and “I despise what I do.”

      Is there any middle ground between stay and make the money, or leave and go back to the bottom? Another job with the same firm? The same kind of job with another firm? A hybrid that will use your highest-value skills with some differences to let you learn and do new things?

    15. Evergreen*

      One thing to think about might be to start gradually reducing your living expenses – over time this will hopefully put you in a position where you’d have more power to take a lower paying job, and the extra savings could provide a cushion for the transition? Or at least might give you more of a feeling of control?

      Obviously this might not be possible for everyone, but it’s what I did, and i’m really glad I did!

  12. Eillah*

    I messed up choreography/speech during barre class yesterday and got a stern talking to from my boss, which sucked.

    What was weird is I felt like I was kind of in a position of having to explain expected human behavior to someone? Meaning that she asked me “hey what went on during your classes today,” and I explained that the faulty microphone had thrown me off and made me jittery, which then flubbed my choreography and overall delivery. She kept asking me what she could do to help and I was made to feel like I was giving the wrong answer by saying “I have to be better at not being thrown when things go wrong” (also, don’t start Adderall on a day you’re working, which is entirely my fault).

    Ugh.

    1. fposte*

      Sorry about the glitch. But “What could I do to help?” sounds like a reasonable and thoughtful question; it’s just the answer is sometimes “Nothing, this one’s on me.”

      1. Eillah*

        I think it’s more that she kept asking me *after* I gave the answer the first time, like I’d given a wrong answer and she was digging for the right one.

        1. Reba*

          The only thing I can think of is that “I need to be better at this” is not really like an *action* you are going to take to prevent it in future. (vs. for example “I’m going to practice the script so I can keep up the flow even if stuff happens”)

          But it sounds like your boss and or the clients are being jerks about a normal blip.

        2. ..Kat..*

          Say, “no, just what I already said.” And keep repeating. You don’t have to come up with something new, or keep saying “I messed up”, just because she keeps asking.

          You can also say, “you keep asking me this. Is there something else you are looking for?”

    2. Cartwheelie*

      Not directly related to question posed, but as someone who attends and struggles to keep up/not topple over/etc. during barre classes, your students probably cared not one iota about any flubbed choreography or directions. On the contrary, occasionally seeing one of the teachers acting like a normal, fallible human rather than an intimidating fitness machine/model is something I find hugely comforting! Stay awesome. Thanks for what you do. :)

      1. Eillah*

        I teach in a super moneyed area, so normally this would be true but…. a couple people complained about the class. Which on the one hand I get, they cost 30/class. On the other hand…. do you have any idea how friggin hard this is?? And not for nothing, I’ve started two new jobs, one of which had to big, global events happening within the first eight weeks, I work 40 hours a week PLUS commute 15 hours a week, and my grandmother died a few weeks ago. Sometimes I want to scream and be like “you know, considering all the shit on my plate ATM, I think I’m doing pretty well just by showing up” but… can’t say that to a boss, obviously.

        1. Matilda Jefferies*

          Good grief, that’s a lot. No wonder you’re a little off balance, literally and figuratively! I hope things settle down for you soon, and I’m sorry for the loss of your grandmother.

    3. boredatwork*

      yikes – your barre studio sounds really intense, I say this as someone who does barre 5X a week. Mistakes happen and you’re human. People flub choreography and speech regularly, it’s not the end of the world.

      I think your answer was totally fine.

      1. Eillah*

        She said “when a teacher is teaching like this it’s bad for business.” Like… girl, I get it. No need to kick me when I’m clearly feeling embarrassed and having screwed up (also– of course I know it’s not good for business! I’m not dumb, and I’m not doing this deliberately. Grrrr)

        1. boredatwork*

          Yeh, I take barre at a very expensive, non-chain, private studio and none of us are this mean to the instructors.

          In fact I am the nicest person possible, because ours have discretion over what sequence of exercises we do and I prefer some over others. Sounds like more of a “culture” problem than a “you” problem.

          If it were a repeated pattern – like every class you taught – I’d side with the studio but, seriously one time???

          1. Eillah*

            I’ve only been teaching about….3 or 4 weeks? So I’m still pretty new and getting used to the flow. I feel like there is a lot of pressure to be perfect right away.

            1. boredatwork*

              wow – we had two new instructors start, and it was a ROUGH start. They have really gotten their feet under them but it’s a learning curve.

              Yeh, if I heard about this at my studio, I would get mad at the owner for being so un-supportive. For what it’s worth, my unlimited package is most people’s car payment, and I still don’t act like this to someone who’s still learning.

              My votes still on bad culture – and barre attracting this kind of unnecessary “perfectionism”.

      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I don’t know from barre classes, but jeezy–everybody has a bad day once in a while.

    4. Lunavesca*

      This reminds me of the comment I got in my last review that I tend to make more small mistakes and become overall less efficient when I am under high stress. Uh, yes? That’s what humans do? Presumably, it was put in my review as a negative item because it’s something that they want me to work on fixing, but how do I even fix that? I am not a robot.

      Also note that this isn’t self-inflicted stress or ordinary day-to-day stress, this is from situations where something has gone wrong and I have someone (literally or metaphorically) standing behind me, breathing down my neck, watching me work and freaking out over how the thing is broken and it needs to get fixed and “somebody” need to do “something” right now!!!!

      1. fposte*

        I don’t know your specific situation, but yes, in general, people can learn to make fewer mistakes under stress, and that’s a reasonable expectation. Pilots are always good to copy on that because they really don’t have the luxury of stress-induced error; checklists are therefore a really good protocol. So think about creating checklists for those situation that have occurred or for whatever commonalities knit them together–if it’s that the CEO called, what’s your checklist for when the CEO calls? That kind of thing.

        1. Venus*

          Pilots and other stressful jobs (ambulance, police, firefighters, some doctors, etc) also get a lot of training to get good at their processes when they are under stress.

          So agreed that checklists are very useful (although obviously this doesn’t apply to everything), and repetition of tasks when life is less stressful is also something to potentially consider (which is why we aim to practice speeches before giving them to a crowd).

          That said, if the problem is that someone is breathing down my neck while I try to fix a problem… that would not do well for me!!

          1. fposte*

            I’m not saying it’s a great thing myself. But there’s been a couple of mentions of mistakes under stress as being just a human and unchangeable thing and I wanted to point out that it was in fact a changeable thing, and a reasonable thing for a manager to point out as something to work on.

        2. Lunavesca*

          The issue is much more so other people’s reactiveness to the situation and how they, in turn, treat me, rather than the actual situation itself. I do much better in these situations when no one knows what is going on but me, and I am left to work in peace. I don’t know how well a pilot could function with 10 passengers pounding on the door, demanding for him to give a blow-by-blow narration of what he’s doing so that they can dissect it and debate with him whether or not that’s what he should be doing. There’s a reason why that would be not allowed.

          If there was a checklist, for example, we would spend half an hour to an hour summoning half the company to sit around and discuss (via email or instant messenger) what the items in the checklist might theoretically be (without allowing anyone to stop discussing and go and actually look at it) and what might theoretically happen after we do the first item on the checklist (a thing that is impossible to know until we do it), with demands for immediate answers from a nonspecific “someone”. A “mistake” might be spending a minute or two doing item 4 on the checklist before noticing that item 3 was accidentally skipped and course-correcting, because half of my attention is required to be on the conversation about what I’m doing. I have always thought I did quite well in these situations, all things considered, but evidently not.

    5. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve taught and now just take classes, but not barre, straight ballet classes. I’ve never had a microphone or been in a class with a microphone. If the music is such, just take the mic off and half yell the steps. In ballet classes, you’re expected to remember the flow of stuff anyway. Have never done a purely barre class so can’t say. But if it’s 4 tendu en criox, you’re expected to remember where you are/how many you’ve done. Now when I was teaching the little kids, that’s completely different. Adult classes, you assume some level of remembrance.

      1. CTT*

        It’s an exercise class, so if it’s anything like the barre-exercise classes I’ve taken, there are no “routines” beyond the stretches that you do in between segments, and even those you’re always guided through verbally. It is repetitive movements, but in different orders, combos, etc.

      2. Eillah*

        Yeah, inspired by ballet but not really the same. And I’m not a ballerina and wouldn’t know those combos anyway.

    6. TPS Cover Sheet*

      No, you need to go diva

      What can I do to help?
      – Don’t buy cheap poundland/dollarstore shit that breaks whan I am having a class! Knvest in proper hardware!!!

  13. Anonandanon*

    Because none of her cronies is here for her to be loud and obnoxious with, one of the managers came out of her office to yawn REALLY loud at all of us. It’s like she *needs* everyone to know she exists and needs attention…yikes.

    1. Eillah*

      People who need to fill the space with sound are so GD irritating. Shut up, just because you don’t like the quiet doesn’t mean you get to blather on.

      1. RDR2 Ecologist*

        Ugh yes! I have a coworker who is like this. One time it was just me and her in the office, and I jotted down how many times she burped loudly, yawned, smacked her lips, sighed in just the 30 minutes it was me and her in the office once I realized she was making a lot of noise.

        It was 45 fricken times!

  14. Moray*

    Does anyone else work for a nonprofit with a mission you don’t actually believe in? How do you handle it?

    1. MsM*

      What’s your role? Because if you’re in something forward-facing as opposed to, say, finance or IT, then unfortunately, the only answer may be “start looking.” If it’s not critical to your job duties, then focus on whether you’re getting enough out of the skill-building or the environment – and if not, then again, maybe that’s a sign it’s time to go.

    2. Eeyore's missing tail*

      I’m not sure how much your job is directly tied to the mission, but I’ve had to disconnect myself and just simply view what I do as job. Instead of focusing on how will my position help further the mission, I focus on what do I need to do to get x, y, and z done so I can keep producing good work.

      My situation’s a little different than yours. I agree with the mission of my institution, but I disagree with a lot of ways the administration and board believe it should be implemented. Good luck!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’m sad to say it didn’t work out for me. My heart wasn’t in it (think an animal lover working for Ducks Unlimited), so I was just going through the motions to get a paycheck. Conversations with co-workers could get awkward (“what did you do over the weekend?” “we definitely did not hold a vegetarian potluck with friends who protested the live pigeon shoot at the hunting club two towns over” kind of thing). I moved on to another job after just a few months.

      I imagine everybody’s mileage will vary as to how well they can balance their own values with the mission of their workplace. I was careful not to burn bridges on my way out, saying that I had found an opportunity I couldn’t pass up.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      It depends if you don’t believe in the mission or if you are against it. If the non-profit is trying to feed the world by teaching minorities how to bake granola bars using ingredients they grow in a window garden, but everyone is great to work with and there are opportunities to grow and learn skills, then I would stick around! Yeah, the premise of the mission is a bit ridiculous and won’t obtain it’s goal, but you are gaining as an individual.
      If the mission is supporting a political party that you are against, then I would leave because it would really start to wear me down emotionally.

    5. That time we... I know, right?*

      Same dilemma. Over the past 20 years I’ve worked with seven nonprofits, twice with the same brand. Until the nonprofit I work with now, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed, embraced, and learned about the different issue areas.

      The nonprofit that I work in now has been around for a hundred years in an issue area that is a current hot topic. I greatly appreciate the program development, its r&d in pilot testing and application requirements for efficacy, as well as its use of volunteers as program facilitators. The heartburn I have is the cost of the program per youth and the amount of resources necessary to implement the program. I believe the topic area is important, but I’m not sure the manner that we’re implementing it, is the most effective.

      What carries me through is the challenge of the tasks that I am responsible for and learning new skills well be being able to use my extensive and diverse experiences to help those around me. I find that my purpose is as an internal capacity builder that helps the program, development, and executive leadership find great ways to do their job.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      For starters I would ask to what degree you don’t believe in the mission. Like, I’m not super passionate about the idea of hats for llamas, but I could work for a llama hat nonprofit. But I definitely couldn’t work for a company that hunts llamas and makes them into hats. I guess what I’m saying is that if it’s a mission that you don’t actively support but don’t have a problem with you could probably work fine for, but if it’s a mission that goes against your beliefs then I don’t think you can or should work for them.

      Also depending on the nonprofit, you’d want to check for culture fit, since (from what I’ve heard) a lot of nonprofits use the belief in the mission to really unite the workplace together. Also belief in the mission can lead people to be more willing to take a lower salary, so without that belief you might be more upset if the salary isn’t in line with what you want.

      And like what others have said, it can depend on how connected your role is to the mission. I work on the operations side of a (for-profit) company that I’m definitely not at all passionate about the industry or work they do, but my job is completely separate from what the business does so it doesn’t affect me. I’m also surrounded by similarly-minded people, so my lack of passion/knowledge isn’t an issue, and we’re all just getting our jobs done and then going home. This is refreshingly different from past jobs, where people were constantly giving up their free time to do more work, which made people who “only” do their jobs look like slackers to management. (I’m definitely not dissing people who are passionate about their work or those who go above and beyond! It’s inspiring to see people like that, but it’s just really hard to be the odd man out in a crowd of people constantly giving 18-20 hours a day to the industry when you just want to do a good job and then enjoy your outside passions.)

      So yea, lots to consider!

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I now realize that my advice is written from the idea that you’re considering taking a job with a nonprofit you don’t believe in, so apologies if you’re already in that job and trying to cope!

    7. Cheeses, Gruyere*

      I come from a Nordic country where there is a ”state church”, about 85% of the population ”belongs” and only old ladies and religious kooks actually ”go” to a service unless its confirmation school, baptism, wedding or a funeral. Only the baptism and funeral aren’t opt-outs…

      So my mother wanted me to become a priest. Now as its Evangelic-Lutheran you can get married, but boozing and dancing used to be frowned upon. You need to leave a wedding so they can have the first waltz and the kids know not to go for the punch as it’ll be pure moonshine ”after the priest leaves”.

      Anyways, I was pretty good in my classes, and you only had to learn some obscure theological arguments to get to university, but I didn’t have the zeal, and ”faking it” I could do for only so long. I can still go to a free movement and do a good hellfire sermon off the day’s reading, but I really won’t as I feel so fake. Usually any ”christian” friends stop asking me to join after I start quoting Hesekiel 23…

    8. NoTurnover*

      Pretty much echoing what others have said….I’ve worked for nonprofits where I didn’t care much about the mission, but certainly wasn’t against it, and that was okay. I found it hard not to care about my job eventually, but I could have kept doing it indefinitely if I had to financially.

      I would have a very hard time working for an organization with a mission that I was actually against, and imagine I couldn’t do that for more than a year or two before it really sucked my soul out.

  15. Shelly*

    My promotion, and subsequent pay raise, will be official next week. I’d like to buy an Apple Watch with my first increased paycheck. I don’t work in tech and none of my coworkers currently wear an Apple Watch. I don’t plan on talking about it endlessly but I would wear it daily. Will my coworkers think this is flashy or other negative perceptions? Should I wait a few months so that it isn’t obviously lined up with the timing of my new role? Am I just overthinking this?

    2. CTT*

      You’re probably over-thinking it, but do the people you work with have a tendency to be critical of what people wear or how they spend money? If so, I know Alison has written about how to deal with those sort of comments. But if they haven’t before, they probably won’t start now.

      Congrats on the promotion!

    3. Errol*

      over thinking. You earned this promotion, you are 110% free to spend you money as you see fit.

    4. Cranky Neighbot*

      A couple of my coworkers have them. They don’t really stand out from other modern-looking “dumb” watches with slick designs. Don’t worry about it, and have fun with the new tech!

    6. quirkypants*

      I’d buy it!

      If anyone comments, I’d say something like, “I’ve been meaning to get one for a while and finally treated myself. Fancy technology is the only thing I splurge on!” I wouldn’t mention your raise or anything, I think very few people would even make that connection.

      Everyone has different things they choose to splurge on, whether it’s shoes, sports, handbags, their car, their pet, music, comic books, dinners out, vacation, gadgets, etc. So if you’re feeling nervous I’d just call out it is a splurge and most people will probably get it because most of us have one weakness or another.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      It’s fine as long as you don’t look at it constantly. People at my last employer all purchased smart watches and they couldn’t help but look at them constantly. You would be in the middle of a conversation and their watch would vibrate and they had to look at it instantly.
      There is a learning curve to a smart watch, so learn to ignore the buzz until after the conversation/meeting …like you would with your phone.

      2. Ariaflame*

        And if you are in a meeting you can set it to not make noises during the meeting anyway. Like everything you get used to having it and it goes from being shiny new exciting toy to useful thing you still like to have but don’t have to look at every few seconds.

    9. Kate H*

      Buy the watch. One of my coworkers has one and we don’t work in tech either. It’s not a Rolex and, even if it was, you can spend your money however you want. The Tesla our VP drives to work every day is “flashy.” An Apple watch is perfectly normal. Congrats on the promotion!

    11. nonnynon*

      Buy the watch. Apple watches are pretty common nowadays and it’s likely no one will notice. Several people I work with have one (we are not in tech) and the only reason I know is the talk about what type of bands they want. There is likely others that have them and I have no idea.

    12. DAMitsDevon*

      I work at a nonprofit and none of the my coworkers have an Apple Watch. My parents very recently bought one for me because there was a sale on them at Best Buy last month and after having some major health issues earlier this year, they liked the idea of the watch being able to monitor my heart rate and such. Even though an Apple Watch is definitely not a substitute for a doctor, I was not about to turn down getting gifted one.

      Anyway, so far, unless my coworkers are silently judging me or talking behind my back, which I doubt they would do, no one has said anything about my watch? Also, one of my coworkers who normally works from has one as well. I think as long as you’re not constantly playing with it so that the screen lights up, your coworkers probably won’t notice it.

    13. Parenthetically*

      Unless you’re being conspicuous about it, like checking it all the time or showing it off around the office, I’d bet that most of your coworkers will a) not notice, b) not know the difference between that and another smartwatch/fitness tracker, c) not know how much they cost, d) not think of them as a status symbol or whatever, and/or e) not care how you spend your money. I certainly would fall into all of those categories!

    16. The Rat-Catcher*

      Tons of people at my workplace have them, and none of them make over 50k. I wouldn’t worry.

    17. TPS Cover Report*

      Well, if you think £400 watch that you can get for £200 refurbed is ”flashy”…. I bought an automatic watch selling at £1200 for £800 from an obscure Swiss brand I like… the watch I ”want” still costs £4000 even used and it is not even a blink on the ”flashy” scale… Mate with more money than sense has a Breitling worth more than a cottage in Wales… and his flashy Rolex is a down paynent of a London flat…

      So at the end of the day, I suppose what you regard as ”flashy” that is. And it’s not chavvy bling-bling

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Get the watch, and talk up last month”s 911 rescue of a paddle boarder if you think any key people would better understand safety than other functions.
      (Boston Globe, June 4)

    20. Bibliovore*

      Enjoy your watch. I had a life event and had been obsessing about the Apple Watch for quite a while. I had similar concerns. No one actually cared. If someone said hey is that..? I say yes and we would move on.

    21. Clarissa*

      Tell them some of the things the watch will do:
      1.Tell time 2.High & low temperature and weekly forecast. Temperature in other cities 3.Heart rate, resting and walking. 4.Tell your texts and emails. 5. 5 top news stories 6.PING your iPhone in case you misplace it. (my favorite ‘cause my iPhone likes to hang out under my bed.). 6.It’s a flashlight. 7.Call 911 and more… They’ll probably get bored and leave you alone.

    22. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      You don’t say where you’re working or if it’s an austere kind of setting, but celebrating a new job by getting yourself a present sounds pretty reasonable to me. Lots of people are interested in/enjoy tech even if they work in other disciplines. I’m a low-level hobbyist and I’ve attended tech events to learn, have fun, and meet interesting people (and pick up cool swag).

  16. user42146*

    I lost my job 3 weeks ago. It was an awful job because of my boss and the general culture in the office. I was bullied. But still I loved what I worked on and was always super engaged and had very good results till the last second.

    I started applying like crazy… And hey, it seems I will get something.

    Currently, 3 weeks after starting applying and in the full holiday season here, I have one oral offer and 5 last-stage interviews coming up next week. Several first interviews too.

    The thing is, I tried to apply a lot to get something quickly, so the offer I got will pay me just I was making at my last position or even a bit less than that. They mentioned I could get promoted quickly to get much more money, but I have bad experiences with promises that are not solidified in contracts.

    And other positions aren’t that great either (companies are less prestigious or the salary slightly lower/ the same whereas the workload the same or higher).

    Any thoughts?

    1. BeeGee*

      I can relate to this, well, except having final interview rounds (I only have a few first round/second round interviews in the works). At first, I think I panicked after my lay-off and took the approach of “quantity over quality”. But I’ve learned to reflect on getting laid off from a bad environment and focus on getting a role that didn’t have the “red flags” at my last two firms I have worked at (for me, I don’t know if I want to work at smaller, independent firms in my field because there seems to be a lot of vague upward growth and I’m tired of doing too many tasks in my role as a younger employee).

      That’s not to say to be picky or closed off when you need a job, but if you have enough financial stability, I would take the opportunity to getting a job that you are happy to take and doesn’t set off too many warning flags. If the offer doesn’t seem great, don’t take it. It sounds like you’re in a pretty good place with some other interviews lined up, sounds like it might be worth seeing some of those through rather than taking the first offer (if you’re not thrilled about it). Good luck!!

      1. BeeGee*

        Sorry I think I glazed over the last part about not being thrilled about the other interviews in the works. Three weeks is not a long time to be unemployed, and I would reiterate on the quality application thing. Focus your time and energy on roles you are excited to apply for, and spend time on your resume and cover letters for each application. Maybe also consider splitting time between job searching and getting a certification/additional schooling for your field?

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      If they’re serious about the promises, ask for them in writing. Explain that you appreciate the sentiment, but that it would give you a lot more comfort taking the position when it’s written down.

      That won’t necessarily stop them from reneging on that, but it makes it much more real and probably in everyone’s minds that it’ll happen. Most companies will balk at this though. It’s a personal decision, so be really honest with yourself if you’d rather be where you are now, or where that company’s offering, since that’s what’s definitely in front of you.

    3. tab*

      If you get an offer, I think you should negotiate for a higher salary. Alison has good scripts for that. Congratulations!

    4. TPS Cover Report*

      You’re doing good. Just don’t overdo it. Once you are unemployed… it’s like that ”game theory” scene with the girls in ”Beautiful Mind”. And yes, when I was ”on the pull” nobody gave me the time, but once I had been engaged all the women wanted to have babies…

      ”Employers smell desperation”, it is not a joke. Something you do unemployed will give ”bad vibes” whereas you have a job and are giving out.. ”confident vibes”.

  17. Fortitude Jones*

    Today is the end of the eighth week in my new job, and I’m amazed at everything I’ve been able to accomplish thus far. I created a training guide for how to establish effective sales strategies in writing, and my boss and grandboss were so impressed with it, they asked me to share it with multiple people in our company that can help me to implement it company-wide. Next week, I have meetings with the head of our graphic design department to assist me in prettying up my guide before we upload it to our sales portal and the head of corporate training to help turn the guide into an interactive training video. The head of our sales training department also indicated his second in command would be reaching out to me shortly to schedule some time to talk about ways to incorporate my training guide into their executive sales training section on proposals. This is all very exciting to me since I have the least amount of experience in this than anyone else on my team, and yet I’ve become the department’s subject matter expert.

    I love that this job has (so far) turned out to be exactly how they described it in the interview. I was told that the two people hired for these new roles would have the opportunity to really shape and define the positions for ourselves, and for me, that’s been very true. I’m writing some more training guides and formally introducing a style guide for our proposal team to begin using soon.

    My counterpart? She’s a few weeks into this, and I’m not sure she’s liking the amount of ambiguity there is in this role. She keeps saying she wishes she knew exactly what they wanted her to do after her main task is complete in a couple of months, and I keep telling her that she needs to find things to do that can be useful to the team, but she’s stumped to what those things can be. She’s very process and procedures driven, which isn’t a bad thing – I kind of am, too – but she doesn’t seem to be the type to think outside of the box, so I’m not sure how long she’ll be comfortable in this role without having clearly defined tasks to complete.

    It leads me to wonder why someone like this would even accept a position where a large part of it is undefined and constantly in flux due to the changing needs of the company. She’s also very rigid about her time. For example, she told our manager to please not ask her to get into the home office any earlier than her 9am start time because she has a long commute. Well, our company is global, and we regularly have to work around time zone differences. I’ve had calls as early as 8am (which is an hour before both of our start times) and as late as 9pm – it’s the nature of our job. She then told me that she’s going to be very firm about not working on weekends and holidays, which, again, isn’t always practical when you’re dealing with proposal deadlines. She’s been in this business for over a decade, so she should know this.

    I hope I’m wrong about my hunch and that she loosens up a bit because I think she’s a good counterpart to me – I’d hate for her to get frustrated and leave. We have different strengths that complement one another, and I’m not sure if they would find someone else who has the strengths that she has, which would lead them to foisting off her tasks to me (they are not in my wheelhouse, so DO.NOT.WANT, lol).

    1. Agent J*

      Congrats on rocking your new job!

      Is it possible for someone to give your counterpart a list of tasks that have been done before or ideas to start with? Sometimes I have trouble with very open-ended tasks because I fear doing the wrong thing and not looking capable of doing the job well (thanks, anxiety!). But once I have even a small idea of what the possibilities/options/acceptable ideas are, I can take it and make it my own.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I think our dotted line manager has been giving her a small list of tasks like he did when I started, probably so as not to overwhelm her, but I can come up with some things I may need help on and ask her to assist me as well if he doesn’t have a ton of stuff for her to do right now. Most of the stuff they have us doing right now is cleaning up old documents to get them ready to be automated, but she was hired so late in the game, that I already did a lot of it. I’ll talk to dotted line manager as well and see if he can give her more work – she literally sat on the phone with me for an hour the other day stressing about what she’s going to do once her main task is done, and I can’t keep fielding those kinds of calls. They end up stressing me out, too! Lol

        And thanks for the congrats! I think this is the first position I’ve had where I just came out the gate killing it, so I’m pleased that I didn’t leave my last job for nothing and this seems like it’s going to work out – I was worried it wouldn’t.

    2. bunniferous*

      There may be personal reasons she has to be rigid about her time. I would let her and the company worry about that. On the other hand some folks really do have issues with ambiguity-I know I need more definition than you would have in your job for example-so if it turns out the job as is is not the right fit, it is what it is. Hopefully one reason they hired her is that you DO each have differing strengths and that will play out as time goes on.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s what I keep trying to tell her – give it time! You’ve been here all of five minutes, but she’s so anxious about everything that she keeps contacting me with this stuff. Another example: she IM’d me today to ask if I worked with our direct manager on a task we have to complete to be eligible for our quarterly bonus, and I said I haven’t yet because I’ve been very busy. She asked if I knew when our manager wanted us to complete this stuff, and I said I don’t – she should contact our manager and ask. Like, it didn’t even occur to her to reach out to our boss and ask. She’s new; no one expects her to know everything right away.

    3. LadyAbhorsen*

      Congratulations!! You sound like you’re absolutely killing it at NewJob! I’m going to try and take some of that energy with me, if you don’t mind :P

      I don’t know if I have any advice on Coworker, except maybe, since it sounds like you have a really good sense of what you’re looking to do and build, you could try and bring her in on that? She has different strengths, so maybe if you go “I’m looking to do X in the next quarter, and I’d love your input on it.” she’d have a perspective or offshoot that she can then work on and build from? If I’m off-base on how your job and roles work, my apologies.

  18. Eeyore's missing tail*

    I need a little help. My supervisor asked me to review applications for the temp taking over my position in a few weeks and would like for me to participate in the interviews. He’s also asked me to come up with some questions. This is my first time on the other side of the table during an interview. Any tips on good questions to ask a temp? This is an administrative assistant position. My office works a lot with student appeals (I’m in higher ed), new programs and curriculum, and general problems/complaints. So far, here’s what I’ve come up with.

    1) Why are you interested in this temporary position?
    2) We deal with students who are not having their best days in our office. How would you handle an upset student when you were unable to give them the help they are requesting?
    3) Can you describe a time when you’ve had to adapt to a new situation quickly?
    4) How do you prioritize projects when juggling multiple deadlines?

    Thanks so much for your help!

    1. Murphy*

      I think these are all good questions, especially #2.

      One that we ask around here, which is kind of related to your #3, is “Can you tell me about a time where you were asked to do something you weren’t trained to do?”

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These are perfect questions for someone who hasn’t sat in on hiring before, seriously!

    3. Cashier*

      These are good questions. The only thing I would add, and I am not sure of the language, is something about working in environments with very tight institutional frameworks. E.g. in higher ed, when you’re putting through a new certificate first it goes to advisory committee ABC, then the next level up, then 13 levels up til it is approved. So somehow I would want to gauge for does this person work on the fly or does he/she/they consider that there might be very well established processes for doing xyz.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Try to avoid “how would you handle X?” questions. They’re easy to BS. Instead, ask “how have you handled X?” (That’s what “tell me about a time when…” questions are.) If they haven’t encountered X before, ask about something similar/broad enough to be applicable. So in this case, it might be, “Tell me about a time when you had to work with an upset client/volunteer/colleague/etc.” or so forth.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      We just interviewed interns and I was impressed with a couple of the questions that we asked.

      1) Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. What have you done to improve one of your weaknesses?
      2) Tell me about a project that you were proud of. It doesn’t have to be work related. (Students don’t always have work experience, but this allows them to show where they get excited, something they have done.)
      3) What do you do when you’re stuck, when you can’t figure out how to solve a problem?

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I really like #1. First job out of college I had confessed in the interview to having had projects that seem to build up at the end “but somehow I get them all done’… and boy would I have done better for years if THAT hiring manager would have worked closely with me on project planning and time management instead of it being someone 4 years later.

    6. just a thought*

      my friend always asks interns:
      Boss 1 gives you an important assignment that has to be done by the end of the day.
      Boss 2 gives you a second important assignment that has to be done by the end of the day as well.
      You look at both tasks and realize there’s no way you can do both of them in the time needed. How do you handle that situation?
      She said most give the correct answer of “talk to the bosses and figure out what to do”, but there’s always a few that just say “try to do both and say nothing”

      For a volunteer board non-profit, I also ask interns what they do when they are unsure of how to proceed with a task if they are unsure of how to do it and the person in charge is unavailable for a while. We usually screen out the ones that say “wait until I understand it perfectly before doing anything so it’s right the first time”. But the intern works remotely, and we’re all volunteers with day jobs, so this happens frequently.

      1. Eeyore's missing tail*

        I like those questions. I’ll definitely need to add the second one, but that happens often enough around here.

    7. Samwise*

      #2 — tweak that a little — have them talk about a time they had to do just that.

  19. Eric*

    Maybe this is a really entitled thing to complain about, but it’s so weird to me when startup recruiters act put on a fake friendly act. For example, yesterday I got an email from a guy titled “Whats good Eric!!”, referring to the company’s founders by only their first names. Then in response to my “I’m not looking for a new job, but I wish you the best of luck” reply, the guy says he’s “incredibly disappointed” and I “don’t know what [I’m] passing up.”

    I’m not averse to working hard, but c’mon, you’re trying to establish a professional relationship with someone.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      When I worked at a tech company, this is how EVERYONE in management/recruitment acted… until you put in your notice. Then it was frowns, “I’m disappointed in you”s, and quick walks to the exit.

      1. Eric*

        Yeah, there’s definitely startups and Startups. I’ve had multiple phone interviews with multiple companies where the hiring manager calls up 10-15 minutes late and goes “we’re a startup, so I was busy doing important things.” That, to me, is an automatic pass on continuing the process.

        And with the hyper type A startup dudes, “I’ve worked at startups before and it’s not for me” is seen as an invitation to debate you on that.

        IMHO if you make Working At A Startup into an inherently virtuous thing, you’re a sucker. But to each their own.

          1. LinkedIn, Now LinkedOut*

            I’m from New York City. I once had a recruiter pull something similar to what Eric said on me. Then he’d email me with life updates every couple of months that ended with “and by the way if you’re interested in some of the most awesome NYC startups, let me know!” One was about how he didn’t like NYC but he made so much money here, which annoyed me enough to respond with “I grew up here and your emails are incredibly bizarre and rude. Stop emailing me because I won’t be working with you or any agency you work with in the future.”

            Probably unprofessional, but honestly, I don’t think that guy is going to be developing a great network saying stuff like that either.

        2. Autumnheart*

          Amen. I’ve worked at start-ups, a couple agencies, and established corporations of varying industries: manufacturing, retail, banks. All of those places had both healthy and dysfunctional aspects, but the most satisfying place I’ve worked is at the retailer, which has a lot of the same “energy” and collaboration of a start-up, combined with the financial security and necessary bureaucracy of an established company. Type A Startup Personalities pooh-pooh bureaucracy, but, like, you need to make sure the paychecks don’t bounce. You need an HR department. You need a way to account for your revenue and overhead. You need leadership that understands how to run a business, and isn’t a hyper-promoted software developer who had a really good idea.

          The most DYSfunctional place I ever worked was, at the time, a start-up. They’re still around after 20 years, though, so hopefully that means they figured their stuff out.

          1. Jadelyn*

            “Type A Startup Personalities pooh-pooh bureaucracy, but, like, you need to make sure the paychecks don’t bounce.”

            And this is why I have a personal hard limit on ever doing A Startup. I’m HR. Yes, I know the mundanities of regulatory compliance and labor law are harshing your buzz, bro, but they’ve got to get taken care of regardless. And I’m not willing to be seen as The Office Killjoy because I have to be the bro-wrangler and try to keep them from skirting or outright breaking laws because they’re so focused on being “cool” and “fun” and playing with Nerf guns between the cubicles.

    2. FD*

      It’s not entitled. They’re being jerks.

      In any customer service or sales job, you have to appear friendly, so I don’t make bones with that. That doesn’t mean you get to be a jerk when someone declines.

      It’s also stupid and shortsighted because that guarantees the person won’t consider you in the future!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s how some recruiters just are.

      A good friend has a great job and some numbskull messaged him on LinkedIn all “I see you’re crushing it at Mega Big Business! We have a great opportunity for you to work with us over here at Who The Ef Are You Tho, I wanna talk to you about this and how we can bring your badassery to our team!”

      Get out of here with your nonsense, bro-seph

      1. Eric*

        Yeah.

        I’m not saying that the process needs to be robotic and sterile, but ultimately the recruiter’s contacting you because you have a skill set their employer needs. Affecting informality is pretty disingenuous, isn’t it? My thought is “why are you acting like this isn’t a business transaction and like we’ve been friends for years?” I like my colleagues and boss a great deal but I still go into work every day knowing I’m there to do a specific job for the company.

  20. Cranky Neighbot*

    Thanks for your feedback last week, y’all. I’m getting over my BEC phase.

    …In part because, this week, *I* was the annoying coworker. I had a little too much fun on Slack, I got a cold and had to come in sick, and then I took two personal phone calls today. I have lost the high ground if I had it to begin with. :P I am trying to forget about being irritated and focus on my work instead.

    Regarding the photo of a client, my coworker has not made fun of clients *at all* this week. I think somebody talked to him about it. Good. If it happens again, I’ll speak up immediately.

  21. INeedANap*

    How do you politely, professionally, tell someone to stop emailing you so much?

    I am providing support to someone who is the recipient of funds from my organization. They want to use most of these funds to make payments to a foreign business for work performed. They promised this business a payment schedule that they evidently made themselves, without consulting anyone in my organization.

    As it happens, there is a lot of red tape and many approvals from different departments to get this money out. On top of that, it’s summer, so many people are on vacation. On top of that, it’s fiscal year end, so many people are working on much higher priority tasks.

    What this means is that I am receiving regular, daily, increasingly urgent and desperate requests for “updates” on a process that just does not work like that. I have tried to explain that this request needs to route through these different departments and it takes time – which just results in this person emailing anyone and everyone in those departments for answers, sometimes getting answers that aren’t applicable to this specific process but then taking that wrong information and wanting to know why I’m not doing this or that. Sometimes it results in the people in these different departments getting exasperated with me, because this is my “client”, and they are bothering people outside my department.

    Ignoring the emails doesn’t work, and reads as unprofessional. I have tried to lay out the process and explicitly said: “You do not need to reach out for updates; I will check on this daily and update you as soon as I have any information.” Nothing seems to work, so I’m at the point where I just want to say STOP EMAILING ME – which of course I can’t do.

    1. Reba*

      Do you think rather than ” you do not need to ____” a firmer command of “Do Not Do _____” would help?

      Here is a stab at it:

      “I understand you are anxious to see these payments through. When you contact other departments, it creates confusion that actually slows the process down. Please do not do this. As we have discussed, this is our process (optional something something about governance or whatever if you are a non profit) and it is not possible to work around it. Going forward, I will update you when there is news but I will not have time to respond to requests for information otherwise. Thank you for understanding. I will do my best to keep this moving.”

      I don’t know, too cold? You will know whether you are expected by your org to keep providing Disney style customer service to this person, or to what extent you can draw a boundary.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I like this. I’d send this once, and then reply to each subsequent email with “I have no update today. As a reminder, I will inform you as soon as I have any information. It is not necessary for you to contact me daily.”

      2. INeedANap*

        Actually I really like this! It is so much clearer and cleaner than the emails I tried to compose. I think I was letting frustration get in the way of articulating it this way. I might soften it up a little bit (our org is really big on customer service but does allow us to draw boundaries) but overall this is great scripting.

      4. JediSquirrel*

        And also “I am checking on this every day/Tuesday/whenever” so that they know they are still on your to-do list. People who constantly email are sometimes fearful you’ve forgotten about them.

    2. A Nonny Mouse*

      I think I would take this as a sign that this client needs to be managed more proactively. Instead of just telling them that you’ll check every day, I would try to let them know of the result when you do check so they know you’re on top of it. Then at least they won’t take it upon themself to contact other people who may not be able to give them the information they need.

      1. INeedANap*

        The problem is that I would then be emailing them every day simply saying: no update – I’m actually wasting a lot of time going back and forth with them on these types of “pointless” emails and I’m trying to limit the amount we communicate it, not increase it.

        I say pointless only because I don’t have information to convey, I understand this person’s anxiety about the process and needing it to be sped up, that’s not pointless, it’s all these empty emails back and forth of: Any updates? No updates. When will you have an update? I don’t know, hopefully soon. Who else can I email? No one, just me, please don’t email other people. Can you email these people for updates? No, I need to let them work, just like you need to let me work (this last reply is just my imaginary one haha).

        1. MsM*

          “When will you have an update? I don’t know, hopefully soon.”

          See, I’d change that to “I don’t expect I’ll be able to tell you anything different before [insert time that strikes you as reasonable here]. If that changes, obviously I’ll let you know, but this is the typical timeline. Please keep that in mind when trying to schedule and make plans with your partner organization.”

          1. valentine*

            I would then be emailing them every day simply saying: no update
            This may be what they need and is probably less work for you, especially if you can schedule drafts.

        2. RandomU...*

          I like the above suggestion and would add at the bottom when your next update will be.

          I’ll provide the next update on Friday, unless I have information sooner.

          Then even if your Friday update is “No new information” you can say that with the date of your next update.

        3. Aggretsuko*

          Sounds like my job.

          Sometimes I want to point out that the more we have to stop and answer your questions over and over again and manage your anxiety, it’s only making everything take longer.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Don’t be afraid to reference a previous conversation if this person keeps asking the same questions over and over.
          “Sue, as we discussed earlier, if we (you) email other people repeatedly on this matter then we are only slowing down the process. So, no do not email others on this matter.”

          I have had luck with getting antsy folks to slow down but mentioning something like, “as we talked about earlier”. Some how it seems to jar them back down to earth and they realize “oh, I have been told this before.”

        5. ..Kat..*

          Part of your problem is that when the client emails other people at your company, these other people are not simply referring the client back to you. Anything you can do about these other people? Can you tell them that you understand that client is impatient, but when they respond to client or do Z for client, it is not helpful and just makes more work for you?

          If you can, give the client a time for when you expect the next milestone. “The next X will occur by timeframe Y.” And if they email you before Y, and you have no new information, just say “nothing new to report. The next X will occur by timeframe Y.” Keep it simple and repetitive.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Can you set a regular schedule for when you will send updates on the process (like once a week) and then any other emails respond with “I will provide an update with this on Friday at our regular update”?

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work this often happens – someone has been instructed by their boss to follow up on a regular basis until the issue is resolved. I don’t have an issue with having to respond to a daily (sometimes twice daily or more!) check in, as I understand the need to report back to the boss. (And sometimes the boss is literally standing over them demanding they send the e-mail.) If your situation is similar, you will likely not be able to stop the person from e-mailing you. But e-mailing others in other departments is a whole different issue. I have had some success in getting people to stop e-mailing other departments by telling them clearly that by e-mailing the other department with incomplete information they created more work for everyone. As a result they have delayed getting what they actually want – in this case money – because they have interfered with the process, confused the other department about what is actually needed and – horrors – the process may have to start over.

    5. Jadelyn*

      “Per my last email, there are no updates to report.” Copy and paste, repeat ad nauseum until they get the message. If nothing else, having a pat response like that might help you disengage from it and lessen the feeling of being stuck in a wrestling match with an opponent that won’t quit.

    6. tetsal*

      If you have given them your workflow (“…I will check on this daily and update you as soon as I have any information”) and they are still bombarding you with “when, when, when,” I honestly don’t think it’s that unprofessional to not respond – you cannot give them new information.

      If they get antsy about it, you can just tell them FIRMLY you are on top of it and that there is nothing you can do at the moment. Maybe establish with them a timeline, and ask that you two convene at that time rather than them send frequent emails.

    7. LGC*

      Late as hell answer, but: my hack is to promise updates/a response on a timeline that’s convenient enough for me but reasonable for the person asking. So, if someone sends an email that says, “UPDATE?!” I might say, “I’ll provide an update by X date, is that all right?” (Where X is some reasonable amount of time in the future, like the end of the week.) That does put the onus on me, but it also flags that 1) I do care about this enough to follow up, 2) they WILL get an answer, and 3) most crucially, they don’t need to pester you (or anyone else) for updates until X date.

      I add in the question just because sometimes they might need a quicker answer than I’d like. Sometimes I can push it up, and if I’m inclined to I will. If I can’t, I’ll explain that I’m waiting on Y and Z and I’ll check in on it at X and sorry, there’s nothing I can do.

      It sounds like your client is REALLY looking for a concrete answer, and they don’t feel like they’re getting that. (And they’re not handling it great.) So you need to give them structure and guidance and yes I’m aware I’m talking about them like they’re toddlers because that’s kind of how you have to treat them.

  22. Jessen*

    Reposting from the July 4th thread as I posted late:

    I’m working on putting together a list of resources and tips for young adults job searching after coming out of abusive homes. So we’re often talking people who may have little to no knowledge about how anything works. Figured I’d ask the AAM community for any good resources. Basics like how to put together a resume if you’ve never seen one before are helpful, as are any tips on what sort of options are good for young people. Especially anything that doesn’t require college, since this is a group that often isn’t able to go because of FAFSA rules.

    There’s a lot of bad advice out there! So I figured I’d see what the community here can find that isn’t all gumptiony.

    1. FD*

      That’s a really interesting question. If you’re particularly looking at good options that don’t require college degrees, I would reach out to local trades that offer apprenticeship programs. Many of the skilled trades badly need young people and pay pretty well.

      If you do a search for “apprentice programs [YOUR STATE]”, you’ll generally find some good hits, I find.

      If you’re working in your local community, I’d also reach out to people in the trades and talk to them. Building relationships is really important to the success of this kind of thing.

      1. FD*

        Apparently I put ‘reach out to trades’ twice…

        I meant, look for apprenticeships online and also contact local businesses and see if you can set something up. Sorry, it’s been a long few days.

      2. Jessen*

        Really looking at online advice right now, mostly. But that’s a good idea about trades! At least in the US a lot of the people we’re talking to can’t get through the FAFSA because parents aren’t cooperating. It can be very hard to get an override.

      3. Iris Eyes*

        Partnering with local trade unions might be an option as well for trades training.

        I’m not sure but Salesforce has free online training modules. If you get the certification and what not that might be enough to open doors without a degree as it seems like they are expanding pretty fast.

        Another option for tech, working in retail where they offer tech services (office stores, electronics stores), that could be a bridge into an eventual in house tech support role.

        Part time employers who provide scholarships and may not require FASFA coupled with an associates degree could be a way to get in the door for office and financial work.

        For the entrepreneurial minded, pop-up business school seems like a fantastic resource. They specialize in helping people get a new venture started up with minimal fuss and funding.

        1. Venus*

          Talking with a trade union might be useful to get a feel for what might be available nationally (or maybe ask if they would be keen to have young folks contact them directly). There are some scholarships (https://www.mikeroweworks.org/scholarship/) which won’t help a lot of people but might be worth a note somewhere. I would ask the trade unions about whether or not there are opportunities for unskilled kids to help out – the guy who did some work for me recently said that he’s going to school to learn a trade, now that he’s been working in construction for a few years and knows what he really wants to do.

      1. Jessen*

        I like that – not only what to put on your resume but where to look if you’re not competitive. I know I didn’t know temp agencies were a thing before I started reading AAM.

    3. deesse877*

      Here is more a practical rec than a resource: if you can, walk through a real online application as a group. Non-degree jobs usually have those, and they are not intuitive for people who are very young, and/or lack consistent access to a computer (as opposed to a phone). There are user interface issues that can be hard to anticipate (e.g., where is the menu?) and also cultural or self-presentation issues that loom surprisingly large. Retail places often screen with “ethics” questions, for example, like “Have you ever shoplifted?” Lots of people from all backgrounds have, of course, but kids whose main model for authority is teachers, and/or don’t have much exposure to workplace norms of respectability, may answer with a detrimental excess of honesty.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Similarly, is it possible/practical to go through face to face interview techniques? Some kids who have been through abusive situations might be more unnerved than most by the “confrontational” nature of face to face interviews. Particularly overuse of “um” and body language.

        1. Jessen*

          Maybe? I’m not sure how that would work. We’re talking something more similar to a wiki – there’s no sort of group meetings or classes or anything like that. Just a diffuse online support network. Face to face contact is discouraged because a lot are either minors or just overage and children and young adults from abusive situations are easy targets for predators.

          1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

            Ah – then this is more background research for them for the future? Presumably they’ll have a face to face interview when they come of age?

            Maybe some interview tips, but practicing in front of a mirror? My point is that seeing another person’s face can be unsettling when being asked interview questions, even for someone who hasn’t been abused. Seeing a face (even their own) may help to put context to what an interview will be like.

            (I’m a little confused why children are looking for jobs though – what age are you helping?)

            1. Jessen*

              This sort of research is aimed at young adults who need to get out of abusive situations, especially those where parents may prevent or interfere with getting a job. So the 18-25 range. That said there are a lot of younger people on the forum too. And it could also be useful for a 16 or 17 year old who’s been told they have to get out at 18 or who knows they need to run as soon as they can.

    4. Lora*

      Oh my goodness! I am painfully familiar with these FAFSA rules and have nothing nice to say about the assumption that “all parents want what is best for their children” and “abuse is rare and hardly ever happens so we don’t need to think about it, lalalalala” but. To answer your question, here’s what I did when I was in high school, because I grew up back in the day when you could actually pay for school by working full time in summer and part time through the year:

      1. I actually had a decent guidance counselor and some very good teachers who were able to help me find what sort of jobs I could get. This was a while ago, so in those days you went to the library and got a newspaper and wrote down in a notebook what the classified ads said. I assume now it’s Indeed/craigslist and much more complicated to spot scammers, as back in the day when a company had to pay a non-trivial amount of money for a classified ad to run all week, that was some barrier to entry for scammers. Also 1099 employment wasn’t really as much of a thing in those days, not like it is now. I didn’t have to worry about being misclassified or owing taxes or anything like that.
      2. I was mentored by older students in my school and a couple of friends outside of school who had already had summer jobs. They helped me with the job applications and coached me on what to say in the interview, what to say when the supervisor wants to schedule you for shifts when you are actually in class, how to push back politely but firmly.
      3. Once I had my first job (waitressing), two very nice co-workers mentored me and explained to me which parts of the job I do have to put up with (customers acting like filth) and which I don’t (being paid on time, how to calculate what you should be owed and how much should be taken for taxes to be sure the manager didn’t short you).
      4. Teachers also helped me with the whole transportation to the job thing, once in a great while – I had a very kind art teacher who taught a night class and occasionally gave me a ride home from work if I was scheduled to work after the buses stopped running.

      Transportation was definitely a Thing though. It took a while to figure out how I was going to get a job close to the bus line, get a bus pass (which has to be pre-paid for the month…with what money??), make sure the job wouldn’t schedule me for weird hours when the bus didn’t run, until I could get a car. And then of course I needed someone to drive me to the house of the person who was selling a $500 car. I know this varies a lot by locality though, whether you have public transit or not, but for me being able to access transit and figure out how to get a job I could either walk to or get the bus to, was a very big deal and I still needed someone to drive me around for a little bit until I had things set up.

      Something I wish had been better when I was young: realistic explanation of trades and ensuring that they were open to girls. Granted, I’d probably be a diesel mechanic instead of a bioengineer, but that’s a good job – just one I had no idea how to get into and one which was clearly marked Boys Only in my day. As near as I could tell you had to go to Job Corps if you wanted to get into trades apprenticeships, and I had no idea how to do that without my mother interfering somehow.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s not even abusive or non-existent parents. Some of us have parents who are simply under-educated and refused to fill one out because they feared that they were signing for a massive amount of debt. =(

      2. Jessen*

        Oh yeah. Add in there’s also a lot of cases where the parents use willingness to support as a method to continue abuse. So they’ll happily sign and provide aid on the condition that the young adult doesn’t use it in a way that might actually lead them to getting independence. But that can be near impossible to explain to outsiders.

        1. Lora*

          Oh, and I wanted to add – bank accounts to deposit your paycheck. Some banks are really easy about this, you just walk in and tell the first customer service person you see, “I want to open a savings account, here is my first paycheck, social security card and school ID” and some are complete a-holes who want a full credit history and ten forms of ID and a bunch of stuff that 18-year-olds simply do not have (I’m looking at you, PNC and M&T). A list of “good” banks and credit unions vs “don’t waste your time” ones would be useful.

          1. Jessen*

            Credit cards too, probably! How to get started on building your credit when you don’t have a lot of support. I know there’s some starter cards out there that’ll give one to young people – I believe my first card started with a $250 limit and was specifically marketed to students and young adults with no credit history.

          2. Natalie*

            Since the OP is looking primarily for online resources, Ally Bank might be a good one – it’s completely online so available nationwide, no fees for routine stuff, and just from poking around on their website it doesn’t seem to be difficult to open an account. I don’t bank with them myself but I’ve heard good things.

            1. StillAChemist*

              Unfortunately I’ve had the opposite experience with Ally – my partner had no credit history when we moved in together right out of college and they sat on a joint account app for like three months before telling us we couldn’t have the account because he didn’t exist. We walked into a credit union that day and opened an account in twenty minutes.

              1. Jadelyn*

                Credit unions! I actually work at one now, but I’ve banked with them my whole adult life, and I cannot recommend them enough. Tell the big banks to heck off and go find your local credit union. Some may have specific membership requirements but most don’t these days, as long as you live in the neighborhood they serve that’s good enough. The fees are lower, the staff are generally under less upsell pressure and care more about members’ financial well-being than banks do. The fees and rates are generally lower.

          3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

            A lot of companies are signing deals with sketchy paycard companies, instead of cutting paper checks, and an explanation of the fees and pitfalls of a paycard vs. a bank account would be helpful.

      3. Filosofickle*

        It’s always mind-blowing to be reminded of how the “smallest” things can completely derail you — like a bus pass! Seriously, I’d donate monthly to buy a transit pass for someone starting out. There’s probably a group near me that does this, I’ll have to check!

    5. blackcat*

      What is the community college scene like in your area? Some places have relatively inexpensive certification programs (ex HVAC tech), which can help a lot.
      I would include on any list the advice to stay away from similar-sounding programs from for-profit schools, and how to spot a for-profit.

      1. Jessen*

        This is more online focused than locally focused. I could certainly suggest looking into community college programs, although I’d have concerns that they might still be unaffordable. In a lot of cases we’re dealing with people where even a few hundred dollars might be too much. If anyone’s familiar with or knows resources for assistance for students who can’t fill out the FAFSA or who don’t qualify for sufficient aid with it that would be useful.

        1. blackcat*

          I would still include the tip to stay away for for-profits. The rules that kept them from doing a lot of predatory recruiting have been scaled back, and they can make a great pitch to young people in desperate straights.

    7. Natalie*

      This is a very specific bit of advice, but it’s my personal crusade: where they can get free* help with their income taxes, so they don’t pay someone at H&R Block fifty of their precious dollar to do essentially nothing.

      * From what you’re describing, these folks would be within the income limits for IRS Free File or VITA volunteers.

      IRS Free File gives filers who make less than $66K access to third party software, i.e. TurboTax, H&R Block, etc, to complete and efile their federal taxes for free. Most states are also included or have their own free file program.

      If you prefer to talk to someone or you have a complex situation like self employment or shared custody, you can find a VITA volunteer site and have your taxes prepared for free by an IRS trained volunteer.

      There is NO REASON for a low income person to pay a storefront tax preparer. The people in rare situations where they do need professional help need a CPA anyway.

      I’ll put links in a reply.

      1. Natalie*

        IRS Free File: https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free

        Always start at an IRS.gov page, don’t google for a provider. At the moment there is nothing preventing the third party providers from trying to route you to the pay versions – see ProPublica’s nice little expose on Intuit’s practices.

        VITA: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/free-tax-return-preparation-for-you-by-volunteers

        They can also help with prior years if they’re not too swamped.

      2. Jessen*

        Thank you! From what I know of the group, the most common complication is going to be dependency issues. It’s common for parents to keep filing with the child as a dependent, even when not eligible. Which results in returns being rejected and it can turn into a mess.

        1. Natalie*

          This is a really common issue that a VITA volunteer would be perfect for! Being erroneously claimed as a dependent does prevent someone from efiling (because their SSN has been “used”) but they can file on paper, and some months later both them and their parents will be contacted by the IRS to provide information so the IRS can decide who is right. (Residents of a few states can also request a special PIN from the IRS that has to be included with any return, which would prevent family members from incorrectly claiming them.)

    8. AJK*

      I delayed going to college right after HS for other reasons, but when I did sign up at 25 I discovered I no longer needed my parents information or signature since I was considered an independent student. I don’t know what the rules are anymore, but if that’s still the case, working and waiting a few years for college (while not optimal) is a possibility. I know having previous full-time work experience helped when I was post-graduation and looking for jobs. I worked at a temp agency for a few years, for example, and that gave me some valuable office experience I could point to right away. So even if they’re not able to go right now, they don’t have to give up on college entirely if they want to go in the future.

      1. AJK*

        PS: When I didn’t go to college at 18 I thought my life was over and I was a washed-up failure, which caused me a lot of grief for a few years. If can spare anyone else that experience by sharing my non-traditional student story…

      2. Jessen*

        Thanks! It sounds like the temp agency was a lot of help then? That’s often one of the major issues – it’s hard for an 18 year old to find a job that pays enough to live. Especially if they don’t have any prior work experience, which is also fairly common.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Lora has already covered a lot of good territory. I would also include very practical things like practicing filling out forms, what to wear to an interview, practice answering interview questions. What to do if they offer you something to drink, appropriate, etiquette on things like shaking hands, holding doors, proper language. Do they have the documents needed to complete an I-5 form, such as birth certificate, social security card, drivers’ license? They may need help in getting them. Finally, in my area the public school system offers some adult education/job training, like pharmacy technician, or food service. Might be worth checking to see whether your area has something similar.

      1. Jessen*

        Documents is one I honestly have yet to see a good answer to. A lot of young adults end up coming out with no identifying documents whatsoever. And it can end up being a catch-22 where you need the documents to get the documents.

    11. Reliquary*

      If these young adults are fleeing abusive homes, then they absolutely qualify for FAFSA dependency overrides. If you can identify and create a relationship with a “friendly” financial aid officer at a local community college or local university, that’s the key to sending these students there to help with their FAFSA forms.

      Community colleges and private universities with missions to help underserved student populations will probably be your best bet.

      1. Jessen*

        There’s already some instructions on how to qualify for a FAFSA dependency override. However in many cases where it’s “only” emotional abuse (very common) young adults often can’t qualify in practice. They don’t have the right sort of documentation of abuse. It’s especially difficult because it’s actually pretty common that the parents will say they will pay for college, but then put stipulations on that amount to them being allowed to continue abusive behavior. A student with no outside documentation of abuse and parents who are on paper willing to pay for college doesn’t have much chance.

  23. HigherEd on Toast*

    One of my academic colleagues is getting on my last nerve. She’s a single mother with a six-year-old son who really, really wants to be paid to stay at home with him. The first time she brought this up, I thought she was joking and said, “Yeah, ha-ha, wouldn’t it be great if they paid us to stay at home instead of teach.” But she was serious. She’s gone to the administration, who told her no. She’s asked about colleagues who don’t have children donating their parental leave to her (our university gives a semester and a summer of paid parental leave, plus an unpaid second semester if people want to take it), and seemed baffled at the notion that childless people don’t get parental leave. Now she’s asking people via e-mail, since it’s summer and most people aren’t on campus as much in the summer, to give her money and “talk to the administration” for her so she can stay home with her son. This isn’t about better benefits for all parents, which someone asked about; it’s specifically that SHE gets to be a paid stay-at-home mother.

    People, including me, have told her bluntly to stop talking about this, and someone on the e-mail list who’s tenured and has young children said, “I don’t see why I should take money away from my children to give to yours.” Yet she keeps asking. Ugh.

    1. londonedit*

      What the…? I just can’t get my head around this! Does she have no understanding of how work actually, well, works?

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        She just keeps saying that her calling is to be a mother, but she can’t go part-time or quit because then, of course, she wouldn’t have an income. And people have been pretty understanding in general about her need for flexibility; she teaches mostly online, so only comes to campus for one class or so a semester and required office hours and meetings; she teaches that class in the morning so she can be available to pick up her son from school; people have covered her classes or rescheduled meetings for her because of times her son was sick.

        But y’know, there’s a limit. And now she’s annoying some of the people who have covered classes for her last-minute in the past, so they might not want to do that anymore, either. Enough with the “But I HAVE to be a paid stay-at-home mom” BS.

        1. londonedit*

          While I’m all for parental leave and whatnot, ‘paid SAHM’ is not a job that exists, and it’s bizarre that she thinks an employer would pay her not to work but to stay at home with her child all day. It sounds like you’ve all tried several ways to get through to her and it seems to have had zero effect, so I have no practical advice, but I’m sorry you’re dealing with this!

          1. HigherEd on Toast*

            Thanks. There’s unfortunately no one who’s really ‘in charge’ of the faculty e-mail list, so no one who can really tell her to stop using it this way outside of saying that they don’t want to talk about it anymore. At least her last begging e-mail got only one response, so maybe she’ll give up on it because of that. I’m kind of happy that our fall semester schedules are completely different, so I’m less likely to run into her in person and have to hear about this again.

            1. WellRed*

              I’d reply all to the next such request saying it didn’t seem like harassing people to give her their time off seemed an appropriate use of listserve. Or, something even more withering.

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              Is there no way to block her from the listserv? Seriously, she needs to be banned for a while, or at least until she learns to stop guilt tripping and harassing her coworkers using it.

        2. Not Me*

          I’m with londonedit, What the!? I can’t even wrap my head around that kind of entitlement.

          1. HigherEd on Toast*

            I think academia unfortunately does foster some of these attitudes that people wouldn’t get away with outside of it. I’ve had colleagues in the past who thought they should be able to ban people from ever talking about, say, salary again because that topic made THEM uncomfortable, and a colleague who wanted everyone to donate hundreds of dollars for her daughter’s baby shower that they were not invited to, and someone else who would say that he was going to teach certain required topics and then just teach whatever the hell he wanted. (That last one was extremely offended when students complained and he got officially reprimanded). This is one of the stranger outliers, but not unique.

            1. Wishing You Well*

              Yes, teaching whatever you want is not unique. An engineering professor of mine spent an entire semester railing against magic instead of teaching the curriculum. Didn’t get much out of that class.

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  HA! I’m a relatively new reader who just stumbled on that post.

            2. KoiFeeder*

              Was that last one a visual arts teacher? I’m pretty sure I’ve had two that fit that description (and one female art history teacher, and the anthropology teacher that left for Austria before the midterms and never returned…).

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      …I mean, I too want to be paid to not work, but I also want to live off of ice cream and cheese puffs without gaining weight, and both are just as reasonable and likely to occur.

      It takes some real gumption to actually go to your boss and request that they pay you your salary but let you not work.

      In all seriousness if there’s someone you can report this to above her/you I would, because this has definitely reached the point that she is harassing people.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Yeah, it’s just bizarre. I mean, at the very least she could have tried to say she wanted to fight for better benefits for all parents, not made it clear that she’s only thinking about herself.

        I’ve thought about going to the Dean, now that I have the e-mails as proof. But frankly, I’m not tenured (although neither is she), and I’d prefer one of the tenured folks does it. There are a few who might be willing to do it now, so maybe I’ll talk to them and see.

        1. MsM*

          If you’re on good terms with them and know (or are at least pretty sure) they’re similarly frustrated, sounds like a good idea.

          1. HigherEd on Toast*

            There’s several I am, including the colleague with kids who sent that e-mail about not taking money from his own children to give to hers. So I do have possibilities. Thanks!

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Being paid to not work isn’t even a benefit!

          I’d tell her “You’re right, it’s unreasonable that they won’t pay you to be a SAHM. You should quit this job and find someone who will.”

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Shouldn’t someone inform her boss and grand-boss of her intense begging campaign? This is disruptive and she’s clearly not interested in doing her job. If you’ve asked her to stop and she hasn’t, I’d forward her emails with a comment up the chain of command. Ugh, indeed.

    4. Midwest Academic*

      At our University, most faculty are on 9 month contracts, so if they want to stay home and do nothing for the summer that is up to them (most people are obviously working on their research over the summer, or are paid extra if they teach a summer course).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      She’s been told to stop asking so therefore she keeps asking.

      Makes you wonder how someone could be just. so. very. disconnected. What goes on in their heads that allows them to continue? I would have died from embarrassment at the first time someone said no.

      1. Clisby*

        It’s not just that people say no – I have never heard of a place where people accrue parental leave regardless of whether they’re having/adopting children, and can then donate that to someone else. My husband once worked for an employer where he (or anyone) could donate accrued PTO/sick leave to a colleague who was in a really bad situation – but there, everybody earned and accrued the leave.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Tell her that you will not give her any money and to stop emailing you begging for your money/benefits. And cc her boss.

  24. ArtK*

    I gave notice on Monday and so far, it’s been good. My wife said that within an hour of my doing it, I was already a happier person. Fortunately, the people who could cause trouble have been silent and I’m very happy for that. My two long-time colleagues (10 years, same product, 3 companies) are both sad. My biggest guilt is leaving them holding the bag on this one. We’re in the process of a major knowledge transfer and I’ve made it clear that I can be available in the future for questions. I know that they won’t abuse the privilege.

    The one odd/annoying thing was the e-mail from the HR people asking me for an accounting of all of the PTO/sick time taken in the 1.5 years I’ve been here. They have no system for tracking it.

    One more week here and I’m done! Two weeks of vacation and then I start my new job. Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m evil cackling that these sh*ts don’t track your PTO and want you to account for it.

      They can’t just go pull your GD pay stubs for the last 18 months? Even if my system didn’t automatically do it for me and I could print it out that way, I could do it the long way. What a sack of nonsense.

      You will shed the guilt once you’re out of there for good. I understand it all too well. There’s always that two or three people you really like and appreciate but really, they’re going to be okay. They have the option to leave too if they are as miserable as you were, they should.

      1. ArtK*

        Not on the pay stubs! They have *no* records at all. They supposedly implemented a system but your boss is supposed to enter things and he never entered mine.

        I chose to go the honorable route and looked at my old calendars.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          LOLOLOLOLOLOL

          Sucks to suck, HR. You’re too good of a person, I respect this but wow, yeah you’re better than I ever would have been. I would just say “I don’t know I was supposed to be tracking, I assumed that’s the job of someone in payroll. My bad, suckaaaaaaa.”

          1. fposte*

            Very tempting to go just for “I never took any time off. I’m sure that’s why you have no record of any.”

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Seriously…I want to know why they’re asking. Do they have to pay it out, is that why? In that case it’s in their best interest to keep track FFS! Are they going to short pay your last check if you took too much!? That’s their risk that they took by not tracking it.

              1. ArtK*

                Yes, they have to pay it out. Yes, it’s in their best interest to keep track of it. Yes, they’re incompetent. Yes, this is one reason why I’m bailing out.

                Here’s the reason why I did report it honestly: I took pretty much all of my available PTO and would feel horribly guilty taking advantage of their incompetence.

                1. fposte*

                  Yeah, I’d want to be the ethical one there too. But I’d still secretly fantasize about other approaches.

                2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                  Ah okay, they pay it out so I’m less salty and accept them for their short coming!

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  Some where someone is saying, “I got lucky this time, ArtK is saying he used most of his PTO. I may not get this lucky a second time.”

                  I worked for a place with around 40 or so employees. PTO was not tracked. Anywhere.
                  Unfortunately, this was a minor problem in light of other things.

  25. Marzipan*

    Aaarggghhh.

    Some of you may recall that I’ve been trying (for several years, and to the tune of a very substantial sum of money) to conceive through fertility treatment. My next donor egg IVF cycle is all paid for, my baseline scan is Monday. I haven’t ever told my workplace about it, because I frankly didn’t want to.

    On my current wage I would just about be able to afford to live and support a child, although it would be very tight (especially childcare). In this area, I wouldn’t be able to get another job outside of my current employer that pays me this much. (It’s an area with low wages overall, and my role is quite niche and obscure, and I don’t have qualifications or skills that would transfer all that readily to anything else.) Even if I were to get a different job at the same grade with the same employer, I’d go back to the beginning of the pay band so would initially earn a big chunk less. In my current job, I’d get fantastic maternity leave and I’ve worked here long enough that I’d have hoped for a bit of consideration around making things work practically (like, needing to leave on time because of childcare, that kind of thing.) So, I’ve always seen this as a ‘here or not at all’ proposition – I don’t think it would be responsible to dive into single parenthood on a shaky footing. I’m also old enough that I don’t think it would be particularly responsible to wait – I’d already be a fairly old parent, wait any longer and I’d be concerned.

    All of a sudden, they’ve randomly lobbed it into the aether that they’re considering restructuring our jobs to go from effectively 9-5 (with some overspill sometimes at busy times), to being on a rota including occasional weekends (which I could deal with, just about) and then some sort of shift pattern involving days (9-5) and evenings (4-11). And there’s no way I could possibly do that and be a solo parent. I don’t have family nearby. There’s no childcare option that runs to midnight, even if that were vaguely reasonable, which it isn’t.

    To say that I am upset would be putting it mildly. I basically spent half of yesterday crying. It’s not finalised yet and they’re would presumably be some sort of ‘consultation’ but it sounds like they’re very set on doing what they think will please the boss above them. They’re also so bogged down in attempting to create a rota that I think as soon as they manage to invent one that works mathematically, they’ll go with it irrespective of whether it makes any actual sense.

    It basically feels like my workplace has decided I’ll never get to have children. I mean, my treatment may well not work anyway, it’s not like my history is great, but still.

    2. WellRed*

      Is there a chance that if you and your co-workers pushed back as a group they wouldnt make the switch? Is it a done deal? What’s their reasoning?
      As to the personal impact, you aren’t pregnant yet. please don’t put your life on hold for too long. Parents, even single ones, figure it out. If you already had children and they sprung this, you’d figure it out. It’s harder, to be sure, but not impossible. Would voicing some of this to a therapist help you see clearly and make a decision?

      1. Marzipan*

        It’s not entirely a done deal, and they may yet decide to propose something entirely different. Their reasoning is… fuzzy, and I’ve pushed back quite hard on that front already in an effort to understand what it is they’re actually trying to achieve. I get the sense that they’re feeling urgency from above to come up with a model but I don’t completely get (and I’m not sure they do, either) what the rationale is. What really concerns me is that they’ve clearly spent so long trying to come up with any sort of rota that can make the hours come out right and cover the times they want to cover, that as soon as they get anywhere close to that, they’re going to get very protective of it. Even if it makes no sense – they won’t see that, they’ll just want to cling on to their hard-won ‘success’.

        I’ve always thought that there would be some having-to-figure-it-out times, if I were to have a family – but as a single person, I’m really feeling the difference between going into it with a good job and able to support a child, versus the possibility of that not being the case.

    3. blackcat*

      How do your colleagues feel about this restructuring? My guess is that you’re not the only one upset by this, and if people push back NOW before a change happens, you’re more likely to be successful in preventing the change.

      Have you considered moving to a better job market? You may be pleasantly surprised that other companies have good maternity leave, even if you haven’t been there long.

      1. Marzipan*

        They also seem not to be fans. It’s tricky because we’re being told little bits and pieces, but basically that they’re trying to come up with a model so people can comment on it.

        Physically moving wouldn’t really be workable, for various reasons, and finding another job locally is not something I’d be confident about, sadly.

    4. desktop ladybug*

      I am very sorry for this added stress. I am in a FB community for single moms by choice, and there are a number of surprising arrangements that people make work. Obviously you know your situation better than I do, so I don’t want to invalidate your fears, but something might work out. Family isn’t always blood relatives, and community forms in all kinds of ways. If you use FB at all, I recommend searching for a SMC group (some are hidden, so you might have to join a national group first to find a local community?). They will be a great source to commiserate, brainstorm and support you. Very best of luck!

      1. Marzipan*

        I tend towards anxiety and I’m not great at jumping into things I can’t see a way through. So I could kind of see work, child in nursery, calling on some help from friends as needed. But I’m really struggling to see a manageable way through something that sounds as chaotic as what they’re proposing.

    5. Wantonseedstitch*

      Oh man, I’m so, so sorry. I’m also someone who’s currently trying to conceive while older than average for a first pregnancy (not yet using IVF, we’ve only just started a few months ago), and my husband is not currently employed. It’s scary, even if we were prepared for the circumstance. But your situation breaks my heart. Have you thought about going to HR and talking to them about how unmanageable a schedule like this is for those who depend on child care to be able to work? As someone else suggested, going with a group of coworkers would be even better. Are there any current single parents in your workplace who would be affected by the schedule change?

      I wish you the best of luck with the scheduling nonsense, and also with your treatment.

      1. Marzipan*

        I do think that, for an organisation that likes to go on about being family friendly, they’re making an odd choice. (And it irritates me that the people proposing this wouldn’t have to work these silly hours.) So I’m thinking that one avenue for pushback will be to ask them to think about concentrating the evening work into a small number of specific roles consistently working those hours (there will need to be some new people on the team to do what they’re planning anyway, so they could be recruited upfront to work just evenings) rather than making literally every role on the team completely family UNfriendly.

        Good luck with trying to conceive!

        1. valentine*

          Options:
          ~Ideally, moving to a better job market because depending on your employer, especially one that lacks common sense like this (really shortsighted of them not to just hire people for evenings), as a foundation of your parenthood isn’t viable. Would being put on this rota be enough of a catastrophic event for you to move?
          ~Your role doesn’t need to cover evenings. You stay put or move to 9-5.
          ~You get your own shift, with your current flexibility, but core hours that include both shifts. (Basically, it’s okay to ask to be an exception to the rule. If they say no, at least you know, versus finding out you suffered needlessly.)
          ~If stuck on the rota: An interval of more than two days off between the different shifts because they’re going to take a (massive?) toll on you. Forming a group, possibly even living communally, with some of your opposite-shift coworkers and friends so you can trade childcare.
          ~Finding baby-sitters happy to work evenings. (If you could do this, there might be room to actually request to work only evenings, for extra pay.)

          Maybe you can find communities of parents in nursing, retail, and factory work to see what other possibilities there are.

    6. KoiFeeder*

      If it helps any, my mom had me at around 42-43 (albeit without IVF) so you’re certainly not alone with being an older parent!

    7. remizidae*

      >There’s no childcare option that runs to midnight,

      I think that’s your problem! There isn’t any childcare in your area that is open late? If so, this would be a great thing to bring up with your HR/management.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Also consider asking if longer term employees can have their choice of shifts.

  26. Anon for this*

    Is there a tactful way to have a conversation with your boss about the amount of time they have been out recently? This is our busy season and my boss has only worked a full week 2 of the past 7 weeks. 2 of the weeks he was out for 2 different week-long vacations, the rest were for out of town meetings/ events. I respect that his time off is his own but I am still training and I have been covering for him on top of my own duties so I am very overwhelmed. I feel like there are not enough hours in the day to get everything done and something is going to fall through the cracks. Any tips?

    1. WellRed*

      Don’t talk about the time off itself, so much as ask for guidance in prioritizing what needs to be done vs what can wait or handed off to someone else. If you don’t tell the boss there’s a problem he can’t help.

      1. Anon for this*

        The nature of my work is one where no one else is able to complete the tasks. I tried to bring up the fact that I am overwhlemed but he called it my trial by fire.

        1. Rezia*

          Can you tell him something like, “I am doing X, Y, Z as priority and letting A, B, C slide if needed because I can’t do it all right now, please let me know if that’s a problem”

          Saying it’s your “trial by fire” does not mean that you should let yourself get burned out. That is very unsympathetic and unhelpful of your boss.

        2. Jadelyn*

          …speaking of fires, that’s a blazing red flag. Seriously, if your boss is that flip about you being overwhelmed, I’m not sure I’d hold out any hope that he’ll ever be willing to actually, y’know, manage.

          More practically speaking, tell him very bluntly and in simple words that it’s literally not possible to complete everything in the hours available, and you need him to work with you to prioritize with the understanding that things at the bottom of the priority list might just not get done when there isn’t time for them. See if that knocks him out of his complacency.

    2. fposte*

      You can’t tell your boss not to take time off, but you report what won’t get done while you’re short-handed and ask for prioritization if necessary. No, there aren’t hours enough in the day to do his job and yours, so don’t make that the goal. If by “falling through the cracks” you can mean flagged for Bob’s return rather than forgotten, that’s a reasonable response.

      If there’s a subtextual question about whether he should be taking the time he is, I’m thinking “Probably not.” It sounds like he’s got overly high expectations for a new staffer, and I’m wondering whether he’s had a lot of churn in that position (or if he’s used to having a lifer who knew everything he did). But that’s not something you can control; what you can do is control your hours and what you prioritize.

      1. Anon for this*

        Oh yes! I am just having trouble trying to phrase the convo as ” Hey I am drowning because of everything on my plate/ I don’t have the autonomy to make big decisions that need to be made now or else money is lost” even though the time away and the lack of communication of what is a priority (everything is of the highest priority when he is here) is the reason why.

        I only gave the break down of the time because it has been going on for months and I am feeling slightly burned out.

        1. fposte*

          I’m a little confused by “I am still training” if you’ve been there for months, but it’s not reasonable to expect you handle budget-level decisions in your boss’s absence unless you’re adequately compensated.

          I do get a strong whiff of “not reasonable” from the situation as a whole, though, so it’s possible that even a reasonable pushback won’t solve this situation for you; if so, you’ll need to decide if this is something you can live with or not.

          1. Anon for this*

            It’s hard to explain without exposing myself but I am in a highly specialized field that takes about 3 years to fully master (as in have 100% autonomy and not having to have pieces of work double checked before being sent out). I have been here just under a year and have been learning quickly, but there are some things I have questions on.

    3. Coffee Bean*

      That must be exhausting for you. My suggestion would be to not discuss the amount of time he has been Out Of Office, especially because it sounds like it wasn’t all for personal reasons, he was working as well. And even if it was all personal, presumably his boss (your grandboss) has approved knowing it is your busy season.

      Just stick to the facts. During a one-on-one have a conversation about your list of things to-do, and you can say “with you being tied up in other things I have been trying to also pick up A, B, and C Tasks”. Then you can ask him how he would like you to prioritize things.

    4. Rey*

      If I’m reading this correctly, it seems like your biggest concern is how to get the work done (or prioritize and decide which work won’t get done). With this in mind, I would stay away from a direct statement of “you’re out of the office too much”. Instead, I would make a list of exactly what you still need training on that is preventing you from functioning while he’s out of the office, and a list of exactly what you’re covering for him on top of your own duties. Then, ask him about those specifics: “I still need training on X and Y. Can we fit this in before you are out of town next week? I want to be prepared to handle things while you’re gone.” Or “Am I responsible to cover A and B while you’re out of town next week? I’m concerned that I don’t have time to do your A and B and my X and Y. How would you like to prioritize these items? Which of those items can wait until you return?”

    5. Anon for this*

      I just realized that the way I framed this makes it sound I am annoyed about the time away. I am not. I am just overloaded because of the time away and the lack of direction I am given. I am doing the job of 2 people and I am not fully trained on my job let alone my boss’s daily responsibilities. Sorry for the confusion

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’re approaching it as if you just have to get everything done. You don’t — or at least you shouldn’t start with that assumption. Frame it for your boss as “I have time to do XYZ, but not ABC — how should I prioritize?” More here, which is about a different situation but applies to yours too:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2011/04/help-my-workload-is-too-high-and-im-burning-out.html

      From there, it’s up to your boss if he wants to make the connection about WHY this is the situation.

    7. OhBehave*

      Stop keeping track of his time away from the office. If it continues it will only drive you nuts.
      As Alison has suggested, set up your own priority list and ask boss if that’s reasonable. His time away may be coming to an end soon and he will have a regular schedule. Be very careful of your tone when you approach him though.

  27. dealing with dragons*

    Looking for advice about a shift in job responsibilities. Previously I had been responsible for actual deliverables, but now I’m in a new position which doesn’t have delineated deliverables for me to do. My new job is a lot more business oriented, so it’s hard to tell what I should do to fill my days. I’m also still not 100% on my responsibilities; it’s currently a Role That Exists but was previously being covered by two people. I think they are having some issues in wanting to transition the “fun” stuff.

    It’s also for a company with 50k+ other employees, so the job is huge. It’s exciting but also terrifying.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since this is a new position and you’re still transitioning into it, it may very well take you time to really get a grip on what you should be doing on a daily basis to stay on top of things. A lot of my life is just monitoring things, so I have a list of things to click through and look at them every day or every week. This is where lists and a full scope of what your duties are comes into play.

      I can’t give you that much more advice without knowing more specifics of what they’re having you do but at the same time, you don’t know the specifics either at this time it looks like! So try not to stress.

      If you have a 1:1 setup with your supervisor, this is something you can also ask them to help you tackle and frame it in that “I want to succeed at this job, how should we approach this so that we’re on the same page.”

      1. dealing with dragons*

        yeah it’s kinda hard cause we’re doing a scaled version of agile, so besides smaller sprints/iterations there’s bigger 3-month iterations. The current one ends in like three weeks so work is winding down/getting ready to pivot. I’m hoping that when the next one starts I will get a lot more context due to being involved in planning/strategy sessions.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Seconding the “transitions take time” bit here. My HR dept reorg’d late last year/early this year and I was made part of a brand new two-person sub-team within HR, and we’re just now – six months later – finally feeling like we have a firm grasp on what we’re supposed to be doing.

        We keep a team planning document with our priority 1, 2, and 3 items, our “wishlist” projects (stuff we’d like to do, but don’t have time for right now), any major deadlines (like EEO-1 part 2 which is coming up alarmingly quickly), stuff like that. It’s very helpful for me in keeping on track, since a lot of my work is ad hoc and firefighting, I find it easy to get lost in the weeds and forget that there’s a bigger picture to keep working towards as well. Could you create a “strategic plan” type of document to serve a similar function for you?

  28. Need boss advice!*

    Hi all! I wrote in a comment on the open thread a couple weeks ago about my manager misrepresenting an internal opportunity to me so I wouldn’t take it, and then I found out later (after they had hired someone else for it) that it was a role they had tailor-made for me and my skill set. A few things have happened since then that show it’s actually part of a larger pattern that’s starting to emerge, and I’d love some feedback on how to deal with the situation. I am getting the sense that my boss never wants me to move out of my role and would actively try to sabotage me from doing so.

    For example, when I was hired on, professional development opportunities were discussed and at my review earlier this year my boss said he’d like to see me pursue some this year. I identified a course (offered by our company at a low cost) that interests me, and while it’s not directly aligned with my current role, it could open up more opportunities for me in this company in the future. When I told him I was interested in it, he chastised me for “wasting company resources” on this course. He asked what I planned on doing with it and when I told him my interest in moving to other areas of the company (which I would need to do to advance from my current role), he bacame quite upset and basically told me that I shouldn’t be interested in that, why wasn’t I doing more in my current role (things that have been frozen for a number of reasons), etc.

    This is one of a few incidents like this. Also of note is that my current role is something that is gradually getting phased out due to technology changes. It’s a question of when, not if (and he would not be my boss anymore when it happens). I feel like he wants me to fight to keep my role as is, but really, I’d just like to focus on how my current skills could transfer to another role in our company. However, this type of treatment does not inspire me to stay at this company long-term. Anyone have any advice or thoughts as to how to handle the situation?

    1. MsM*

      Is it possible for you to talk directly to other people in the organization (preferably senior to your boss) about what you’re looking to do and how you might go about transferring? If not, then yeah, unfortunately, I think that’s a sign it’s time to start looking. And while you clearly shouldn’t share your ambitions with your boss any more, maybe you can (politely) challenge him to articulate why he thinks it’s worth doubling down on this role when all indications suggest to you that it’s not a priority for the rest of the organization and will be even less of one in future.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. Please start networking internally on your own, OP, so that you can make a move out of your current situation. A manager who actively sabotages their employee is not someone you should be working under long-term (or, at least until your position is no longer needed). It sounds to me like boss is trying to keep you trapped because with you gone, it’ll become even more apparent to the higher ups in your company that his role is also no longer needed – but that’s not your problem, and he’s trying to make it so.

        Go back to the other manager and ask him/her for coffee/tea/whatever. Then discuss whether or not he/she will have another position opening like the one that was just filled. If not, ask the manager if he/she knows of anyone else in the company who would need your particular skill set and ask for him/her to make an introduction if you don’t already know the person. Your boss is an ass, and I wish nothing good on him.

        1. HappySnoopy*

          Yes. Exactly. Reach out, explain you had some incorrect info about the tailor made role that you didnt realize made you appropriate for it until too late.

          Dont throw boss under bus, keep it general and see other opportunities. And keep boss out of loop/communicate with you new expanding network directly.

          You can also frmae it, not just for you career, but for improvements at job/dept as a whole…which is added cover to blunt boss sabotaging you.

        2. Need boss advice!*

          Thank you everyone for your replies! Sadly the other opportunity seems off the table for now. But I am definitely going to make a point to network internally more. Hopefully something good will come of it.

    2. Michael Valentine*

      My husband had a similar problem at an old job. His boss eventually told him she would never let him leave the department, and that if he tried, she’d tell everyone how terrible he was. Even though it would mean moving to a different city, I encouraged him to apply elsewhere. It was better to leave than try to navigate all the politics, and honestly, moving 1000 miles away did some great things for his career!

      1. Need boss advice!*

        Wow, thank you for your insight! I’m glad to know that this situation can have a happy outcome!

        1. valentine*

          Your boss is seriously weird. You’re heading toward a layoff and he’s got you in a deathgrip yet is sabotaging you at every turn. If he’s desperate to have a direct report, it would make sense if he fought to keep your role. If he’s interested in you personally, it would make sense if he helped you stay at the company, even if not with him. I just can’t think what he’s up to. So.

          I read your previous post. Did you use any of the advice from it? In addition, you can tell the colleague who tried to get you promoted that you definitely want that and ask her to share that with others and to let you know if she hears of anything.

    3. msroboto*

      It sounds like even if your job is in a death spiral your boss probably doesn’t want to hire or train a new person into a dead job. You are the only thing he has to keep that dream going.
      I think you need to talk to him about this reality and TRY to negotiate a deal. Like I will suck it up until the end if I can take those classes, train for a new role. If he isn’t into it then it’s time to look outside the organization.
      You really do have some leverage here. It is not in his or the companies best interest for you to leave.

  29. Xenial Xiaolongbao*

    Clash of the Directors S1. E9

    Woot woot – it’s a 3-day work week with Thursday and Friday off! (Yeah non-profit!) Well deserved, too!

    Due to the short week and almost everyone out, it was a quiet, calm week.

    The Programs Director (PD) was MIA. Her schedule didn’t say she was going out of town and we can only surmise she texted the Executive Director (ED) to let her know she was on the road to see her boyfriend. No bigs – nothing was going on anyway. As far as I know, she’s still waiting for her new job contract to be signed before she gives notice.

    As our Events Manager (EM) is on maternity leave, we’ve made concerted efforts to not ask her any questions, not that we need to because she did such a great job detailing what to do for an August fundraiser that we’re working on now. I texted her to thank her for her prep work – she did a great job.

    Development Director (DD) again tried to tap into my ‘what do you know about everyone else’ without much luck. DD lamented she didn’t know how to get back into good graces or connect with the PD. I only said that I’ve had a great relationship with the PD and all the DD can do is simply talk with the PD and let her know how she feels.

  30. Cranky Neighbot*

    Do any of you have a favorite backpack for carrying a laptop to and from work? I’d like to add a second one for a little bit of variety.

    I’m thinking black (my current backpack is colorful), but not hung up on it. Anything available in the US or ship-able to the US is fine. Men’s and women’s are both fine.

    1. cactus lady*

      I have a Victorinox and LOVE it. It’s great for flying too. I got it for like $50 on Amazon.

    2. londonedit*

      Do you know what? I actually bought a backpack that’s designed as a baby changing bag (despite most certainly not having a baby) and it’s great. So many pockets! So much space! So comfortable to wear! Mine is from a brand called Lekebaby and it was only about £35 on Amazon. It has plenty of space for a laptop, tons of room inside, one of those wired top openings that stays open if you pull it apart, and loads of other useful pockets.

    3. Tigger*

      My Under Armor one works great! Also like how there is a separate compartment for shoes/ gym clothes

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have the eBags slim laptop backpack and I love it. It fits a ton and my regular-sized, not-super-light laptop feels like nothing in it. It’s almost always on sale on their website; I got mine for 30% off.

    5. Reba*

      I have a Sherpani Camden bag that I love! They have several similar styles. I got it for traveling but it quickly became my everyday work bag. It is configurable with backpack straps, a long shoulder strap, and decent size top handles.

    6. Booksalot*

      Poppy Barley’s The Backpack is on my “if I win the lottery but still need a job” list. It’s gorgeous and expensive AF.

    7. Hallowflame*

      AmazonBasics laptop backpack is pretty good, and only $30. Plenty of room for a laptop and accessories with space left over for any other odds and ends you may need to carry. This backpack is my go-to carry-on when I need to travel.

      1. A Non E. Mouse*

        Seconding AmazonBasics!

        https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011J4BPWC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

        We have three of these in the family now, mine and my two oldest children carry them. They have laptops and books in theirs for school, including the requisite “thrown into the car/onto the floor/slung only on one shoulder between”.

        I carry an enormous about of stuff in mine (I’m in IT), usually my laptop, ipad, charging cables for all of the above, my lunch, at least one full 1 liter water bottle, wallet, keys, girly things like tampons, a book or two to read, notebook for notes,etc.

        I’ve never not been able to fit what I needed in there, though it does get awkward to carry if you get it too heavy.

        10/10 recommend!

    8. SarahKay*

      I have a Wenger backpack who are the people that make Swiss Army Knives – it even comes with a pocket just for a Swiss army knife. It’s now 11 years old, still going strong, and I love it. It has a padded compartment for the laptop, lots of extra space for other stuff, loads of different pockets (pockets within pockets!) – it’s fab. If you google “Wenger Skywalk backpack” you’ll get a good example of one.

    9. EmilyG*

      I’m quite fond of the Knomo backpack I got about 18 months ago. They have lots of models in varying degrees of formal/informal, gender-neutral/more feminine/more masculine. I have the black leather “beaux” one but I got it about 50% off.

    10. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Sherpani, recommended here last fall by another reader. Not big, can be backpack, shoulder bag, or carried by handles. (I have a separate tote-like purse for most personal items). Goes on sale periodically at eBags.

    11. Tort-ally HareBrained*

      My husband and I both like Ohio bags. We each have a backpack and I have a tote and he has a messenger (we may have a problem). I like that they store a lot but don’t look too bulky. The women’s also have light colored liners, which makes it so much easier to find things!

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I am using the one I bought for my middleschooler after her grandmother bought her a different one without checking if she needed it. It’s a Jansport, designed for lots of books so I’m using it for laptop and things I use at home AND work like my hearing protection headphones.

    13. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Vote for Victorinox backpacks here. I bought one almost accidentally as it was on sale marked down as the last display item… waterproof (which is very important in my climate) and its robust. On the other hand Dell makes pretty good but boring bags, I got a laptop case from them aeons back and its still in top condition despite being tossed around for… ummm… 20 years…

    14. Jasnah*

      Mine is called “Kroser” but it’s a “doctor bag” (the kind with the wire-frame opening so you can open it up and dig inside) and has laptop sleeves, inner pockets, and tons of space. Comes in black but has a colorful interior so it feels fun and workplace appropriate. Picked it up on Amazon and ships to US or overseas, there were lots of similar options!

    15. lulu mango*

      I really like my Thule (same brand as the car carriers), that I got from Best Buy. It’s a great travel bag as well, lots of pockets, and comfortable to bike with or walk.

  31. Coffee Bean*

    This is hard to say without knowing more about you, the dynamics, the circumstances, etc.
    But below are some things I do to try and have people listen:
    – Be confident! You want to show that you believe and are sure of what you are saying, so stand up straight, don’t cross your arms, speak calmly (does not necessarily need to be loud, but do your best to not let your voice shake), and trust yourself. Also, make sure that when you speak you are not saying “I think”, “in my opinion”, “I could be wrong”, etc. just say your statements without those.
    – Show that you are listening to them when they speak. Nod along, smile, ask questions on what they are saying.
    – Sit in the center of the table or conference room, this puts you in the middle of the conversation flow
    – If you are having trouble jumping into conversations in meetings, first restate what they said, this shows you have heard them and they will listen to you. “If I heard you correctly, you said X. This may impact Y and Z, how about we consider B”
    – Don’t let yourself be interrupted. If someone tries to cut you off in business meetings just take the floor back. “I wanted to finish my thought before we moved forward” or something along those lines.

    Confidence is my biggest suggestion. You are capable and your thoughts and opinions at work matter, so say them.

  32. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    If our friend who introduced us all to the sloth pencil case is around, I just removed my 4th of July decorations from my office and replaced them with sloth themed window clings. So if your dad is still giving you some lowkey sh*t about your taste in supplies, you can keep that in mind as you do whatever the ef you want ;)

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Yeah my old office was decorated in Star Wars stuff. I made Star Wars themed snowflakes for Christmas and someone bought me a pack of Kleenex boxes that were Star Wars themed when Force Awakens came out. Age is just a number and unless your office is super strict, I don’t think anyone cares.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I wouldn’t survive let alone thrive in a strict office structure.

        I also bring in snacks with child’s birthday themes at times because I love cute things. My go to is “My original life plan was to be a teacher, I won’t be changing so eat the snacks or don’t!”

    2. Bostonian*

      Niiiice! I remember that OP. I currently have a sloth as my desktop background (I’m not much of a decorator).

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I instantly formed a soft spot for that OP given my general love for cute things.

        We have zero office decor because we’re in between spaces and we’re like “Why if we’re gonna move…” so I started doing these holiday/seasonal decorations to at least bring something to the beige we’re surrounded by.

        When we move, I’ll adult and put up tasteful professional prints. Most likely of robots or cool machinery or something generally mechanical. Possibly a sloth flying a spaceship if someone doesn’t tug my leash at the right time ;)

        1. TexasRose*

          Consider steampunk, a la fantasy book covers. There are some great ones out there!

    3. Jadelyn*

      My aesthetic is less “cute” and more “office goth”, but 100% in agreement on the whole “having a personality at work doesn’t make you weird or unemployable” thing. Do what makes you happy.

      (I have a purple glass skull-shaped candy dish next to a little sign with a witch’s hat saying “Come in, my pretties!”, a goth/fantasy art calendar on my wall [the tasteful kind, not Luis Royo or Boris Vallejo! Everyone is fully clothed.], and a black glitter skull with LED lights in the eyeholes on my desk. Even my Tasteful Grownup Wall Art is landscape photos of misty forests and foggy beaches.)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Mine skews cute but I also have a lot of wrestling things entwined, so sometimes people don’t know what to make of things I have up my sleeve.

        It’s just kind of like nobody knows what music is going to be playing when they enter my office. In the AM it may be some horrible 90s country, then they’ll come back to say goodnight and it’s Ice Cube or some random pop punk band from 2004. I’m a poster child for “just when you think I’ve ran out of surprises, BOOM gotcha again.”

        My cat is black and therefore there are a lot of black cat things in my life, so that gets a lot of attention. When I move offices, I’m getting more cat art *_*

  33. A Simple Narwhal*

    I just got married and I’m looking into adding my husband to my insurance, and I’m frustrated to find that adding him would at least triple my costs! Is this normal or was I naive to think it wouldn’t cost that much? The insurance at my company is way better than the referral-based, high-deductible insurance his company offers, but I’m trying to determine if it’s worth it to add him now since he’s pretty much met his deductible for this year already.

    [Shakes fist at employer-based insurance system]

    1. Reba*

      Yeah, that’s… yeah. IME the additional insureds are always much more costly than the employee. I’m in a similar boat, and it’s hard to comparison shop with the totally different styles of insurance product.

    2. NicoleK*

      If he’s already met his deductible, seems to me he should stay on his plan for now. Come open enrollment, you can re-evaluate the situation.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is a good point! I glossed over that he’d almost met his deductible.

        However look at when his plan re-sets. It’s not always Jan-Dec. Ours resets mid year, so if his resets in August or something like that and you’re going to miss this “life change” ability to add him, that’s something to take into consideration as well. You only have a month to add a new spouse for our plan, then if you forego it you have to wait until open enrollment which would be almost a full year away.

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          Question for you about this. TL;DR is that I’ve been told that a spouse dropping their employer coverage at their open enrollment becomes a “qualifying event” that would theoretically allow me to add them. Is that true?

          Long version:
          Spouse and I are currently on our respective employer’s plans, and I carry the espresso shots on mine, as it’s the cheapest configuration for us by literal thousands of dollars.

          So far, it’s worked out every year, but since we have similar plan years but different open enrollment periods, we can’t actually comparison shop, just review last years calculations and hope that they’ll be similar. Typically, my open enrollment is early May for a July 1 benefit year, and his is mid-June. I’ve been told verbally but no one will put in writing that if he declined his employer coverage one year, he could come on mine as the loss of coverage 6/30 would be a qualifying event. It seems like it wouldn’t work the other way –> I couldn’t pick up his after the fact and then ask to drop mine a month after enrolling.

          So the question- how does all this work?

          1. Natalie*

            The qualifying event is losing *eligibility* for other coverage. Voluntarily dropping coverage that he remains eligible for doesn’t trigger a special enrollment period.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            This spans two plans, so I would check with your plan administrator for the advice on this one to make sure you’re in the clear. Insurance programs can read regulations differently or just be dicey AF. My gut tells me that him choosing to not enroll isn’t a qualifying event. A qualifying event tends to be legal [marriage/divorce/birth] or an event that you don’t have any control over, such as termination of benefits by an employer or due to termination of the employment. Otherwise everything is lumped into “wait until open enrollment to make these changes”.

            What he should do is wait until your open enrollment to switch and then drop his. Since open enrollment isn’t subjected to the “qualifying event” stipulation. He should be able to drop out and sign a waiver of benefits at that time without having to wait because canceling has less “rules” attached than adding someone on.

          3. Half-Caf Latte*

            Thanks, Natalie and The Man, Becky Lynch.

            Also, add this to the reasons employer-based healthcare is dumb.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I was on the federal marketplace for years, so it’s all ugly. Insurance is dumb and I hate it’s collective overcharging face, so naturally they’d put me in the spot with dealing with the administration of it.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As a benefits administrator, I’m sad to say that this is absolutely on par with all insurance companies.

      They already have astronomical rates for women’s insurance plans because we’re seen as high-risks because we’re seen as possibly having 97 babies in our lifetime.

      I have zero people put their spouses on their plans because it’s cheaper to get a plan through the state marketplace.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I don’t know if this still holds but I think it used to be life insurance companies dropped life expectancy with the more kids a woman had. But health insurance is higher???
        Sounds like reasons to explain greed, in my books.

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Normal for my workplace’s health plan. I think my cost went from $300 per pay period to add my husband. I was as shocked as you are at the difference in cost.

      1. Not Maeby But Surely*

        Weird, my comment was supposed to say the cost went from “under 100 per pay period to insure just me, to over 300 to add my spouse to the plan.”

    5. Not Me*

      It’s pretty common I’m afraid, I haven’t seen triple the cost for just a spouse (as opposed to spouse+kids), but yeah, it’s a lot.

      If he’s already met his deductible for this year it sounds like it would be worth it to take a reaaally good look at the cost difference for the rest of this year before making the change. Do either of your companies offer HSAs? Sometimes those high deductible plans with an HSA can be more cost effective. It definitely takes some math, research, and a very good understanding of your needs to figure out.

      Congratulations on your wedding!

    6. NewReadingGlasses*

      A lot of companies have only either “single”or “family” plans, and the family option costs are assuming you’ll have kids on it as well. Maybe that’s the case at your company? My spouse and I are insured separately by our separate employers because it’s slightly less expensive that way (and because they are stupid about us having different last names, but that is a side issue).

    7. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      It depends on how the employer allocates the cost. I’ve worked some places where the cost was even, ex: 100/month for Employee, 100/month to add spouse; some places where the cost is weighted, ex: 50/month for employee, 100/month for spouse, and some where the cost is almost full price, ex: 0/month for employee, 300/month for spouse.

    8. AndersonDarling*

      Yep. Employers cover a lot of the employee’s premium, but not for the add-ons. Increasing the cost x3 sounds about right. Your employer wants your spouse covered by their employer. Kids usually have a lower premium than the spouse.

    9. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Mine from my job was like this, the plans are: “single” and “2 to infinity” so if you’re 2, you kinda get screwed.

    10. I hate the offseason.*

      Where I work, you used to only be able to sign up for single person insurance or “family” insurance, which covers you, the spouse, and kids – not available is just adding one person. It is cheaper for me and my husband to have separate single insurance than to do the family thing. Although I think they have added a “self plus one” level recently.

    11. Booksalot*

      My work has “you alone” or “you plus infinity” rates, which I hear is common. Same price for me and my spouse as it would be to cover twelve children.

      One additional wrinkle is that it’s very common to require the spouse to be covered by their own job, so I had to provide dispensation from the pope to prove to my HR that my spouse was not able to get coverage anywhere else. It sounds like that isn’t the case for you, so despite the large cost, you do have a bit more flexibility than some.

      1. Arjay*

        Yes, my company has a surcharge of $50 per pay period ($1300 a year), on top of the higher premium, to cover a spouse who is eligible for coverage through their own employer.

    12. animaniactoo*

      If you’re in the U.S., your employer is required to allow you to put your spouse on your insurance plan. What they’re not required to do is cover the half of the premium that they do for you. So the reason that it triples is that the company is paying for half of yours and none of your spouse’s. My company does this too and it’s fairly sucky imo. However, it is also becoming standard in the “let’s save the company some money” perspective across the workworld, so yes, you should expect to see that anywhere and be thrilled if you find somewhere that it’s not true. I’m not sure if kids are required to be paid for on that half the premium thing or just that most employers see it as smart business to not alienate the employees on that front since kids are usually rolled in from what I’ve seen.

      As far as whether it makes sense for him to switch now – when is your next open enrollment period and when is his? If yours comes before his, switch him then. If his comes before yours, evaluate how long that gap would be and whether he could be okay not being covered for it. If that would not be a good risk for you, then go ahead and switch him now.

    13. Combinatorialist*

      While it seems like this is common, this isn’t universal. I’m getting married soon and just went to look up our premium options for adding my soon to be husband. My premiums are X for me, 2X+10 for me and him, 2X-30 for me and my (currently non-existent) children, and 3X for me, my husband, and our currently non-existent children. X is determined by your salary (so if you make more money, you pay more)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, my company pays 83% of our premiums and has an Employee Only, Employer + Child(ren), Employee + Spouse/Partner, and Employee + Family option. The Employee + Spouse option is only $71 more per pay period than the Employee Only option, but it is cheaper to do Employee + Child(ren) (but not that much cheaper).

    14. CupcakeCounter*

      That is how it is at my company – luckily we have Employee, Employee +1, and Family plans so we can stagger the increases. Many companies also have a “spousal surcharge” if your SO has the ability to be covered under their own plan. Hubs had been on mine for years until that came about and that cost was about $120/month in addition to the higher +1 rate.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        My company does offer Employee, Employee+1, and Family plans, and the Family one is five times as expensive as just an employee! I guess that’s good if you have twelve kids, but it’s nuts to think how expensive adding a baby would be.

        I appreciate everyone’s advice/commiseration, I think we’ll continue to let husband stay on his own plan for the remainder of the year and then add him once it’s time to re-up.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Don’t forget to check for insurance for him that is offered by an outside company, I.e., insurance not offered through your employers.

    15. RDR2 Ecologist*

      Unfortunately it is becoming much more common, but it depends on your employer. If you are in one of those plans where it’s individual or family and that’s it, then yeah the premiums you pay as a couple equals that of a family with 4 kids. It’s pretty irritating!

      Add on to that the fact that organizations in my area are starting to add a spousal surcharge (meaning if your spouse can take other insurance and you put them on their plan, it doesn’t matter if the other plan is worse or not, they are adding on hundreds extra in costs to do that).

      Then you have a high deductible, co-pays, co-insurance, and out of pocket maximum’s creeping up across almost all private plans too.

      For the last 2 years all of my raise has been eaten by health insurance cost increases.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        I worked somewhere where rather than a spousal surcharge for insurance, they just stopped allowing spouses who had “access” to insurance through their job to be covered on our plan, period. Didn’t matter if the other job’s plan was garbage, unaffordable, whatever.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I worked at a company (insurance ironically, though not health) that did the same thing. And then my mom’s insurance through her company (another insurance company that does life and health) started requiring her to prove every year that my brother was her kid until he was 26 and could be kicked off. She had to send them copies of his birth certificate, an explanation for why his last name was different than hers, proof that she had primary custody of him, etc. – this really pissed her off because a) they knew all this stuff already since she worked there and b) they kept asking for the same crap EVERY YEAR.

    17. Jadelyn*

      Yeah, that’s pretty normal. I have employee-only coverage right now, it’s about $30 a paycheck. Employee+spouse would be $180 a paycheck. Employee+family (so, also adding kids) is $240 a paycheck.

      In general, the biggest reason for the huge jump is that most employers subsidize some amount of premium cost for their employees, but subsidize a lesser portion (or none) of the premium for dependents. My company does 90/60, I think. My premium is subsidized 90% so I’m only paying 10%, but I’d have to pay 40% of a higher premium for my partner, which results in that huge jump in costs.

    18. fhqwhgads*

      It’s pretty common? What I usually find is the company pays some % of the actual cost of the plan (in my case company pays 75%, employee pays 25%). But for spouses and dependents (again using example of places I’ve worked, not saying this is universal), you pay 100% for the not-you people and the benefit if just that the plan is available to not only you but them also. There is usually a “family” discount in the sense that adding child+spouse or children+spouse is less per-additional-person than just spouse. But depending on what proportion your company is paying for the You part of the premium and if they’re paying anything at all for the spouse part, the multiple you mentioned is not surprising at all.

  34. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Thanks to everyone who chimed in my post last week. In the end I talked with Annoying Coworkers’ team leader, and even though he didn’t take it seriously at first (“you know he’s like that, he doesn’t grow up”) his opinion changed when I told him that someone less permissive than me would threaten to sue for sexual discrimination. Apparently someone had a serious talk with him, since the following day he sulked and refused to say hello to me.

    On the other hand, yesterday we found out that someone left a negative review of our company in our local Glassdoor equivalent. It’s harsh, caustic… and 100% true. We don’t know whether the owners are aware of it, and we fear they may try to hunt down its author.

      2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Thanks! I suspect they’ll “forget” to invite me to every after office after this, but well, someone had to do it.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I had missed that last week…what a nightmare! Good for you for getting it shut down.

  35. Ad Biz Q / Changing Fields*

    tl:dr: Any tips for breaking into the advertising industry with almost no experience?

    Hi All, Happy Friday.

    I graduated from college in 2008 with a Journalism BA, but could never break into that field due to a combination of the recession/industry exploding from print to digital/super-high competition for jobs (I studied magazine journalism). So, I’ve been working as an admin since 2010. The job is ok, but I want something different, and more challenging. I’m not that interested in moving up an executive admin role; I’d prefer to switch gears to something more engaging.

    I know I can write, and I have experience from college work (school newspaper) and limited freelancing. So, I’ve been considering trying to get a job as an advertising copywriter. I have writing samples of articles, but I haven’t done much ad copywriting writing at all — with the exception of some very basic marketing stuff (emails and social media posts) I’ve done over the years at my small firm.

    I would like to use my creativity in a job. I got mostly A’s in Journalism school (but my overall GPA wasn’t good, due to math/science/etc.). By the way, I’m in a mid-size city in the Midwest.

    Can anyone with ad biz experience weigh in?

    Would this be an impossible move?

    1. quirkypants*

      Definitely not impossible but most will struggle to evaluate your ad copywriting skills with articles as the samples. The style of writing is so very different.

      Copywriting in advertising is typically more than just good writing, it’s also about creative ideas, being brief and direct, finding ways to inspire people to buy this or do that, etc.

      This is something I’d never thought I’d ever post but have you watched Mad Men? Many true ad agencies still have brainstorming sessions where all creatives (including writers) gather and brainstorm ideas for campaigns. Others will give you a creative brief and all you to write whatever they need.

      My main suggestions is to take a course or certificate in advertising copywriting and to try to find small businesses who are willing to take a chance on you to start to build your portfolio.

      Many copywriters specialize in one type of writing or another, it’s actually pretty hard to be very good at all types of writing.

      I worked in ad agencies for almost 10 years, currently hire and work with ad agencies, and have many copywriting friends. Feel free to ask more questions and I’m happy to share my perspective for whatever it’s worth.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      Would you be open to working as an account executive in film or radio? I am from a mid-sized Midwestern city and I used to work in admin at a T.V. station in the advertising department and worked with a lot of account executives who had a wide variety of backgrounds. It might not be right in line with what you want to do (it’s basically sales) but there is a lot of transferring from within and it would give you more experience in an advertising department, which would be helpful when you moved on.

      1. Ad Biz Q / Changing Fields*

        Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll consider it. Part of the reason I want to change jobs is to earn more, and I’m sure I’d make more doing that. I think it would be interesting to work in the media industry, even if it’s doing something like sales.

        1. quirkypants*

          Every place and every role is different but I wouldn’t expect an entry level position in marketing to pay that much higher than your current admin role but the upside is almost certainly greater down the road.

          Entry level account roles are probably in the 38-45 range here while admin roles with a few years of experience are probably 35k ish. I’m out of step with entry level copywriting salaries in my area but it’s probably similar ballpark to entry level account roles.

          That said, down the line you can expect to earn a lot more!

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Have you considered doing proposal writing? I ask because you and I have very similar educational backgrounds and we’re both in mid-size cities in the Midwest. It’s going to be very hard for you to break into copywriting without experience, but proposals (basically sales writing) will be a lot easier to get into for someone who went to J school and has strong writing skills. Even your admin skills can transfer over pretty well – you’ll be aces at meeting tight deadlines and managing the schedules of others.

          Proposal writing/managing gigs out in the Midwest also start out at a higher salary than your typical admin role, and if you work at a lower paying job for a year or so, you may be able to do what I did and get a nearly 27% salary increase someplace else. Additionally, proposal development is very creative, and if you have any kind of design skills at all, business development teams will love you.

  36. ConfoundedbyPeopleTalkingtoMeBeforeCoffee*

    Curious, do most people prefer to use their own personal cell phone for work if the employer is paying for the plan? Or do people ask the company to provide a work phone and carry 2 phones? I am at a new work place where they want people to be able to access e-mail and phone if on vacation and so they typically port an employee’s personal phone onto the employer service provider but I came from a government job where there were constant lay-offs so it was always better to keep personal from work phone. Now my friends are telling me that I should just allow the company to port my plan and that way I don’t have to pay for cell phone plan (in Canada so cell phone plans are expensive) and that no one carries two work phones anymore.

    1. Tigger*

      The way that my work (and everyone that I can think of) handles this is that they have you turn in an expense report every month, then cuts you a check for the amount. Can you ask them to do it that way if you already have the same service provider? If not I would ask for the 2 phones to keep that separation for legal reasons.

    2. NicoleK*

      At my work, either options are available to me. I carry my personal cell phone and the work cell phone. I prefer to keep my personal and work separate.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. My company offered to take over my current cell phone bill or give me $75/month to cover my phone, but I chose to just get a company provided phone instead. It’s a pain having one massive iPhone and my little older model, but IT has the ability to wipe any phones that connect to our intranet via VPN, so I was not risking them accidentally remote wiping my personal phone.

    3. Potato Girl*

      Nope nope nope nope nope. I don’t live the PG-rated lifestyle, I don’t need my personal text messages becoming company property, and I -really- don’t need my employer having too much information about what makes me tick as a person. Two phones for me. I forward voice calls from the work phone to my personal phone, and I tell people that calling is much better than texting.

      1. SarahKay*

        This! Work introduced the option for Bring Your Own Device (BYOD) for phones, which I was tempted by as I don’t have a work phone, and my role doesn’t need one enough for it to be mandatory that I have one. I figured it would be useful to be able to check my emails from my phone – and then I read the terms and conditions.
        Basically, work reserves the right to brick my phone if they decide it’s necessary, or to take it if any legal stuff comes up and a whole load of other stuff.
        Reading the T&C’s, I was going “Nope”, “Nope”, “NOPE!”, and finally “Oh, HELL NO!” .
        If I ever decide I really do need a work phone I will carry two phones.

      2. Buttons*

        THIS ^^^ I refuse to have any work related things on my personal cell phone and they are certainly not getting my information. Nope.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I was at a place where I received a reimbursement every month for using my phone, but I had to download a TON of apps. I had no idea it would be such a commitment. They changed their mind every other month on security so I was adding new apps and loading up my memory. If I have to do it again, I will get a second phone for work.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would keep them separate.

      Most people comingle their work/personal life phones because they don’t understand what can happen in the event that they decide to wipe your phone if you’re terminated. That also gives them access to personal information if the company ever comes under lawsuit, since it has company data on it. I just wouldn’t.

      I’m flinching at the fact they want this setup because it’s to keep you tied to email on vacation. Since my experience is if you have a company phone, you leave that in a drawer on your way to the beach.

    6. dealing with dragons*

      I still opt for two phones since I don’t want the company to have any right to my personal phone. My company has discount for cell service either way; the discount is a perk.

      1. CoolInTheShade*

        Yes, when I first started hearing about BYOD, my blood ran cold. I can’t believe it’s becoming the norm.

    7. Emily S.*

      At my company, lower-level people use their personal phone and get partial reimbursement for their bills. But the managers and the sales team do get company phones, separate from their work phones. So it’s a mix.

      They have done surveys that showed the people who used their own phones preferred it that way — not having to deal with two phones.

    8. Shark Whisperer*

      I opted to get a separate phone. Part of my reasoning was that I deal with a lot of clients and I was warned that some of them don’t have good boundaries. I like being able to turn off my work phone when I am done with work so that clients cannot possible bother me in my off hours

    9. RDR2 Ecologist*

      I use 2 phones.
      1) Many employers sneak “remote wipe/monitor” apps on your phone to insure you don’t “steal” their business or whatever. But that captures all your personal stuff too.
      2) There is so much personal information on my cell phone, bank cards, ovulation charts, pictures, you name it that I don’t even connect to the company’s wireless on it (where they can monitor a fair bit of traffic including steal your credit cards which has happened to my FIL while he paid bills from work)
      3) With companies like Cricket out there having a phone with unlimited talk, text, and data is pretty cheap.

    10. Catsaber*

      I would prefer the option of having 2 phones if my employer wanted me to do significant work on my phone. I don’t mind checking my email, but I don’t want anything more than that, especially if it requires remote wipe or something like that for data security. I also don’t want my own phone being on someone else’s plan, just in case they decided to yank it, or there’s a mix-up, and I’m suddenly stranded without a phone.

      I work in IT so I monitor my email after hours in case of job failures (I support data warehouses) but if I see something that needs my attention, I pull out the work computer.

    11. CoolInTheShade*

      I like having two phones. Having one means I have access to my work emails, calls, and voicemails at all times. And I have no self control, therefore I’m always “on call.” Having the second phone allows me to shove the phone away when I need to focus on personal life and keep work from creeping in.

      1. CoolInTheShade*

        To clarify: plenty of people at my US Based company have 2 phones. It may be different in Canada.

    12. ConfoundedbyPeopleTalkingtoMeBeforeCoffee*

      Thank you everyone, I think I will ask for a second first especially since it’s a small company who tends to outsource all IT/phone management. I don’t want my personal data to be at the mercy of a third party.

  37. SophieChotek*

    Hi, I forgot now which thread/comment made me think of this situation but managers I am curious on your take on this.

    I work (part-time) at a coffee shop. I came in a few months ago and saw a big sign “you must take your tips home at the end of every shift.” (We have plastic drawers with our names on them and we often store our tips – especially all the lose change in the drawers and tend to empty when full/when we feel like it.) I asked a co-worker what happened and she told me “someone stole all the tips, but we don’t know who.” (It was pretty much down to a) a co-worker, b) delivery person or maintenance person, c) customer who slipped in and out really quickly during a big rush when everyone was up front working.

    Just last week I randomly commented to a co-worker (Barb), “well, at least the tip thief never struck again. I wonder who it was?” Co-worker (Barb) told me that the manager (Anne) told her that another co-worker (Dot) had stolen the tips.

    1) Seems unprofessional to me that Anne told Barb that Dot stole the tips
    especially since
    2) Dot still work with us and as far as I know never re-paid the tips or apologized
    or
    3) Barb is lying (why I don’t know) or Anne is lying (???) or Barb misunderstood what Anne said
    4) Anne has history of talking badly about her employees to other employees
    5) Dot has had a lot of problems lately (restraining order against ex)

    Guess I’m just curious. Should Dot have been fired? (If she really is the thief.)

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I would think for Dot to be fired, there would have to be more strong evidence than just work gossip. Someone would have had to have physically seen her, or caught her on camera stealing the tips. Although if one of your managers was the one telling people that Dot was stealing, I wonder what her basis is for thinking that.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yeah, that is kind of my question to.

        Like did Anne go back and watch the security cameras (we have them in the backroom) and therefore knows it is “Dot”…

        1. ..Kat..*

          They have camera evidence? If it can be shown it was Dot, paying back the money should be a condition of keeping her job. If they cannot show it was Dot, the manager should not be saying this. But, if they have proof, why didn’t they file a complaint with the police and fire her?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Something like this happened at a place I worked years ago, stuff from desks, not tips, but the same idea. The rumors went around that “Dot” stole the items and people avoided her, were nasty, demanded she be fired, etc. Then it was discovered that the stuff was stolen by a maintenance person who had access to the offices when no one was around. (If I remember correctly, some of the stolen items fell out of his backpack as he was leaving one night.) No one ever apologized to Dot. Please don’t assume it’s her based on the rumors – it probably isn’t.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks for the reminder – don’t assume.

        To be honest as far as I can tell, everyone is still perfectly nice and friendly to “Dot” so that was part of the reason I was so surprised that “Barb” said “Anne” said it was “Dot.” My impression (?) is that “Barb” isn’t running around telling everyone, she only said something to me cause I asked/noticed no one seems worried about leaving their tips in their drawers anymore.

        1. valentine*

          Did the shop replace the tips or did you not lose any? You don’t seem concerned about someone stealing from you. I’m astounded anyone, but certainly so many people, are this trusting. I assumed the drawers were locked.

          Whoever did it should be fired, except Dot, if she did it to escape her ex. (Like the bank employee who ruined her colleague’s life so she could report her husband/their colleague to the responding officers.)

          1. Jasnah*

            What? If Dot stole she should be fired. It doesn’t make it OK just because she had a really good reason.

    3. Autumnheart*

      A manager is telling employees that an employee stole the tips, yet the employee still works there? The “problem employee” with the tumultuous personal life, even? I’ll bet $10 the manager stole the tips. Not to be the cynical jerkwad of the group, but the one time I worked in a tipping position where we had a tip theft problem, the manager was stealing the tips and making it out like *we* were the ones being careless/stealing.

      Get a zipper bag that you can clip to a belt loop or something with a carabiner, store your tips in there, take them home every night.

    4. June First*

      Question since it’s been a while since I worked in food service:
      If you’re keeping loose change in a drawer and just emptying it when full, how would you determine the amount the thief needed to repay? Are you otherwise tracking it?

  38. Errol*

    I’ve always wondered this, but how bad is it to not be able to meet the window of someone who wants to interview you?

    This has happened before and usually I can make it work within the same week but today I got a call for an interview next week and I am out of town all of next week. I offered to phone in or come in the following week so if it doesn’t work it doesn’t work, but I’ve always wondered how that seems on the hiring side. Opinions?

    1. fposte*

      For me it’s not an emotional thing but a practical one. Sometimes if you can’t make the window we don’t have other options, and we’re sorry but we’ll have go forward without you. If we have other options then it’s fine and we wouldn’t factor a scheduling clash into the decision.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the position and how interested we’re in the candidate. If they are screaming off the page as “This one is a unicorn, snatch it any way you can.” then we’d make it happen and just push the interview out until you can make it [well not if it’s like a month out but if it’s another week, sure.]

      But if we hare swamped with solid applicants and you’re just a “looks good, let’s look further into this person.” then we would cut the loss with a “Oh I’m sorry, we are wrapping up this stage before you’ll be available, thank you for your interest, we’re parting ways now.”

      But we always do a phone interview first, so we would have already talked to you and gotten a bit more of a vibe, which is a lot easier to make the decision to wait for you to be available or not.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      We often have a schedule to complete various steps of the process. We try to interview all candidates in the same time frame. If letting one slide until the next week is still within our deadline it’s no big deal. If we had no trouble contacting you, and you asked to interview in week x+1 instead of week x, it’s fine. If it took you a week to get back to us, so we are now looking at week x+2, it might put us in a situation where we have to request an extension of the time to complete the process. Unless the other applicants appear to be significantly less qualified, we would probably not seek an extension. Hope this helps.

    4. Booksalot*

      Read this as “how bad is it to not be able to meet the widow of someone who wants to interview you?” and was worried you were going to be consumed by the interviewing undead. OMG, it’s time to go home.

  39. Woe in HR*

    A quick question on if something deserves a response.

    I work in HR for a global company. I basically just handle the US employees as that is about 75% of our employee base and also because laws are different elsewhere, so we use external resources as needed. One of our locations is laying off a few people. I knew the layoffs were happening generally, but I did not know any details. Our other locations are hiring right now. I sent out an email per the CEO’s request with introductions of all of our new hires with a generally cheery tone. The manager at the location with the layoffs politely requested that I not send future emails of that sort to the employees that are being laid off and CC’d the CEO who concurred. Now, I think that the manager and the CEO are under the impression that I have more details of the layoffs than I do.

    Do I respond and mention that I had no idea who was being laid off and that I didn’t even realize they were still working there? Or just follow their instructions and leave it alone?

    1. fposte*

      Oh, ouch. This is somebody other than you putting their foot in it. It sounds like you’re in regular communication with the CEO–could you check with them and say “I haven’t actually been informed of where layoffs are happening. What’s a way to make sure I have this information before sending future emails of this type?”

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Talk with the CEO about it, since you were following their directions! Leave the manager out of it and respond to the CEO about how you were following instructions and aren’t privy to all the layoff information.

      Also I’m confused. This was an email introducing the new folks? And because some people are being laid off you need to suddenly not be “cheery” during the introduction? That’s going to be worse in the long run for everyone. Now everyone is doom and gloom, even in the expanding departments. Bad vibes, man.

      1. Not Me*

        I agree with this, and, if they haven’t been notified of the layoffs yet but are starting to be excluded from communications that is really bad management. That will get out and the next time someone is excluded from similar emails they’ll start to think they’re next on the block. It’s just bad all around. Hopefully I’m just misunderstanding the sequence of events here.

      2. tetsal*

        I was under the impression that the email was a listserv like “everyone_in_X_position@company.com,” where the laid off employees are still receiving emails? I am not sure, but I thought the manager objected that laid off employees had to see the emails for new employees at these other locations when they are being laid off at theirs.

      3. Jasnah*

        My understanding is people have been told they’re being laid off and given the “times are tight” schpiel, and then here comes a cheery email welcoming new hires. So the employees think “so you can’t afford to keep me but you can afford to hire them?” and it’s not a good look.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Hmmm. It may be the manager thinks you have more details and the CEO knows you don’t, but does agree that this was an oops that the company and not you specifically needs to be more on top of making sure doesn’t happen.

      Towards that, I think the thing to do would simply to be to reply back and say “With apologies, I was not aware that the layoff plans were finalized. I will update our process for sending out things like this to try and catch that in the future.” and then separately send email the CEO to say “For any future communications can you please be sure to also share a list with me of which employees should not receive them? I will double check before sending, but would like it to be on both of our radar to double down on preventing a recurrence of this.”

    4. Woe in HR*

      Thanks everyone! I definitely felt like hiding under my desk for the rest of day when I first saw the note.

      Solution: CEO just dropped by and invited me to a meeting to update our org charts this afternoon. So I think I’ll get a little more guidance then.

      The employees know they are being laid off and their final date, but I don’t have that information. I think it’s fine to keep it cheery when I send out one for next month, but rather just leave those employees off the distribution list.

    5. Buttons*

      How is HR not involved in layoffs/restructuring? Or did you mean just your position? One of our companies is going through a big restructuring and there will be hundreds of people laid off. I am heavily involved in the change management aspect of it, but your SRVP of HR gives weekly updates on what is happening, which departments are being worked on now, the number of people who are being laid off, and once the people have been identified we get an updated list of the employees and when their termination date is.

      1. Woe in HR*

        Tiny organization comparatively. Only 2 individuals are being laid off – which can still make a big impact when it’s 2% of the company! They are in the UK and the external consultant is handling the process. Also, there are obviously some communication lags due to a number of factors.

        1. valentine*

          If it was an all-staff or the like, the manager is being too sensitive and the way to spare their employees was to ask you to remove them from the list, especially if your email was obviously sent on the CEO’s behalf. (Which is a weird norm, but whatev.)

  40. romanatty*

    I’m currently applying to jobs right out of college and I’ve been sending applications on and off since May. I have not heard back from any of them yet, but the job posting hasn’t gone away. I’m getting very anxious about whether I’ve been rejected or whether I should wait a little longer. The jobs I’ve started to apply to are a few entry level jobs for my desired career and I don’t know how long they take to go through applications and call back. How long should I wait before I call it a loss?

    Also, I keep getting mixed messages about applying to the same place more than once if its to a different position. Is it acceptable?

    1. MsM*

      Unless the posting said “absolutely no contact under any circumstances,” one email reasserting your interest and politely asking if there’s any way they can provide a status update probably isn’t going to hurt your chances. But I would assume that you’re probably not going to hear back from them and treat it as a pleasant surprise if you do.

      As for applying to the same place, if you think your skillset matches both jobs and you can make a case for why you’re interested in both of them, you’ll probably be fine. If it looks like you’re just spamming in the hopes they’ll call you back for anything, or like you don’t have a solid sense of what your strengths and capabilities are (e.g. applying for a high-level position alongside entry-level stuff), then you might be putting yourself in a bad spot.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You can apply for 2 positions at the same place only IF both of them are a strong match for your skillset/career path. If it’s a really large company, you can potentially apply for a 3rd. The other loophole is if it’s a question of the same or similar position at multiple locations – in which case it’s fine to apply to each location when they are all handling hiring separately.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Honestly the best thing you can do for yourself mentally is to hit apply and then move on. I know that awful feeling of waiting for them to respond, so when job hunting it’s better to “forget” about a job after you throw your hat in the ring and keep applying for new ones. Job hunting sucks, and hunting for your first job out of college is a special kind of hell, so best of luck to you!

      And in my experience if someone is interested in contacting you about a job, you’ll hear back within a week, two at the most. I know my experience isn’t universal, but any time past that and the silence essentially means no.

      Seconding everything MsM and animaniactoo said as well.

  41. Lunavesca*

    I always see references to weekly or monthly one-on-one meetings with managers on this site, both in the questions & answers and in the comments. I’ve been at the same small company since college, about 12 years now, and I can’t remember ever having a meeting like this. I don’t even know which person in the company I would be having such a meeting with – there are about four people that could potentially qualify, including the company’s owner. We’ve only got about 10 employees so that’s like 1/3 of the company.

    I’m not even sure what would happen in these meetings. I would guess that it is a check-in on your own behavior/progress/etc.? Would it also be meant to be a place to discuss any issues that you have been having with things that employees in a level above you are doing that negatively affects you, or company processes that you think need to be changed? I have a lot of these and I don’t feel like I have anywhere to go with them – I used to address them directly with people when they came to mind but that seems like it may have not been considered acceptable, and I have been explicitly told that my review is meant for the company to review ME and not vice-versa.

    We only started doing structured annual reviews maybe 4-5 years ago, and those were always just some variation of “good job, keep going”. In my last review, I was totally blindsided by a list of complaints that have apparently been issues for years, but were never brought up. I got no specific examples (even when requested) and the review is the only time that these things are ever discussed. I still don’t really understand 80% of what I did that was considered wrong. I got a formal apology from the company owner for the review essentially being handled wrong, but it’s still weighing on my nearly a year later.

    I know that what the ideal management tactics are and what actually happens day-to-day in companies can differ, especially in smaller companies like this one that don’t have a big corporate structure – but to what extent is my company off from the norm? Other than a project manager telling me which tasks I should do, by when, and in what order, what sort of “management” is there that I should be receiving? I am starting to get the feeling that my company is very, very screwed up in this regard.

    1. dealing with dragons*

      my previous company (large) did quarterly check ins with 1:1s scheduled at you and your manager’s discretion. my manager barely managed the quarterly check ins so it wasn’t that great.

      my new company does yearly reviews, but check ins are still at your manager’s discretion. My manager lets his people choose, but tends towards every other week. these are simple 5-15 minute talks about more or less goal alignment, as we’re in product, but also useful for me as a new employee to make sure I’m fitting in.

      reviews should never surprise you, is a good rule of thumb. if they do you’re being managed poorly.

    2. Lora*

      For 1:1 meetings, it’s normally just a quick progress report on ongoing projects and your manager giving you quick feedback and a general idea of what is going on.
      -Project A is at point X, I’ve sent three emails and voicemails and IM’ed Other Department Contact and still haven’t heard back, what should I do to get them to do their part of the project?
      -I sent you a draft of Report ABC to review, do you have any feedback for me?
      -Since Project B is wrapping up next week, here is the new project we are considering putting you on.
      -There’s an investor tour coming up next Wednesday, can you get your crew to clean up the lab so it doesn’t look like crap?
      -Where are we opex-wise, how is your budget aligning with the yearly projections? Can you get a report ready for next quarter?

      It’s quick, not more than an hour at most and usually not even that. It’s also the Designated Time to discuss fish-microwavers, tantrum-throwers and other associated issues. But yes, the notion is that you don’t get blindsided because you’ve been talking all year about things.

    3. BossLady*

      I have weekly one-on-one meetings with my staff members. They give me brief updates on where they are at with projects, bring a list of questions they have/things they need to troubleshoot (that aren’t time sensitive generally speaking, since those are more day to day in email), I give them feedback on any concerns I have or things they’ve done well and sometimes pass along information from higher levels of the company.

      My Boss is much less structured, so I don’t have a weekly or monthly scheduled 1-1 with her. I am generally the one ask for time on her calendar to get the same functions covered (updates, questions, trouble shooting, etc). But she’s also very accessible and willing to deal with things as they come up.

      Personally, I prefer the structure, I would like to have a dedicated time so I don’t feel like I’m having to ask for it all the time to get things addressed, but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on. I have a good relationship with my boss and we work well together, so I’m willing to go with her less planned flow than mine.

      Note: It is a big company though. In smaller places I’ve worked in the past, less structure/formal seemed to be the norm. I don’t think your office is an exception on that.

      1. Filosofickle*

        I’ve only had 1 job that had standing, weekly 1:1s and I really liked it! We treated it the same as you described. It normalized asking questions and getting feedback, which I appreciated since we were a loose team without a lot of face time. They were only 30 minutes.

    4. Anonymousse*

      We have these monthly and it’s a space to talk through work challenges, professional development, organisational stuff, etc.

    5. Anonymousse*

      Also, yes, that is screwed up – sorry! Or at least it’s messed up to blindside you with feedback and refuse to explain it.

    6. Buttons*

      I conduct my 1:1s with my director reports either weekly or every two weeks, depending on the employee. I have 2 lower level employees that need a lot of guidance and feedback, but the rest of my employees are fairly senior levels and we use it to catch up, talk about strategy, anything they are struggling with or need my help with, etc. We also have a team meeting every 2 weeks where each person updates on the 2 big things they are working on, and tell us if they have any or foresee any roadblocks, which allows the team to come together to offer any solutions or support to the person. I meet with my boss 2x a month, and usually one of those we don’t really cover any work, we just chat. We all work remotely, so it is really important that we have contact by phone and not just email/chat on a regular basis.
      Performance Reviews, we do quarterly check-ins and the annual review is when a rating and salary adjustment and bonuses happen. No one should ever be surprised during their review. If you were surprised and especially surprised by complaints that were from outside the review period, they are doing it wrong. The annual review should only cover what was done during that review period and reviews should be based on the goals that were set and to offer development feedback.

    7. Tomato Frog*

      I don’t know if your company is off from the norm, but they’re definitely off from best practices! I’ve never had a boss who does regular check-ins (my current boss is trying to get it going, I think because his managers told him to? with middling results so far), but I’m a first-time manager and I do them. Ideally, yes, they would be a place for you to raise any issues that are negatively affecting your work, as well as giving status updates on your projects, discussing short-term and long-term goals, receiving feedback, making sure you’re on the same page with your manager, and so on. They offer a time and a place where feedback and discussion can be normalized, so your manager doesn’t have to make a special appointment to give you private feedback, making it weird and awkward — and so you don’t get blindsides by your annual review, which of course should never happen.

    8. Lunavesca*

      Just wanted to add some further detail here…

      We do actually have a daily meeting with the project managers and everyone from the production department (my department) where we all go over the progress of what we are working on and ask any non-urgent questions related to that. We don’t have a lot of autonomy and we don’t get projects so much as tasks, so this sort of check-in on a longer time basis would not be of much use. But it is only for daily project tasks, not for more personal or greater-scope things, and it’s half the company all in one meeting.

  42. Reba*

    Do you have someone that you trust, either in your organization or just a friend whose judgment is good? I’d ask for a candid appraisal about how you come across. Someone in your org would have the best sense of what kind of approaches work there, and would also hopefully have a sense of whether your fears/perceptions are founded.

    Toastmasters is also an evergreen suggestion.

  43. The Elderly Intern*

    Hi!

    I’m currently in graduate school and an internship is required to graduate. It is really the only way into an otherwise nepotism-ridden, oversaturated industry, so I am eager to get an internship somewhere and get started! However, I am a bit older than your typical intern (I’m 27). I know graduate school should attract an “older” crowd anyways, since it’s always post-bachelor’s, but I’m still a little insecure about going for interviews and having to disclose my age/having them find out later.

    Any tips on how to spin my age in a positive light? I know this means I have more work experience, blah, blah, but I cannot help but feel they will want some fresh meat instead of…me.

    Thanks!

    1. boredatwork*

      Depending on the industry, get ready for the “someone younger than you will be your boss” how do you feel about that question. 27 is not ancient and they may not even really notice.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I went back to school a little later in life and I’m working on my internship now. I’m at least 5 or 6 years older than most of our interns, but it really wasn’t a problem and I don’t really think there’s much of a difference. But I do think I bring a lot to the table in terms of maturity, work experience, and knowledge of work place norms. You wouldn’t believe how helpful that is.

    3. TheBean*

      In my experience–Having interned at the age of 35– my work experience was seen as a major plus. Perhaps its dependent on your prior work experiences, but I was competent in microsoft products, email, and professional etiquette. Not to say that younger people aren’t, but for me, there was track record of accomplishments that I could list and talk about. If you know your stuff in your field, then I think it gives interviewers peace of mind.

    4. Reba*

      I would say that since you are a graduate student it won’t be an issue. I would definitely not bring it up proactively or try to spin it. There’s nothing to spin! Some workplaces would be thrilled to have someone with a little more experience already.

    5. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      I don’t know your field, but in mine it’s not uncommon for grad students to be older (I was 32 when I did my internship, FWIW). It’s also not that crazy that people would be graduating undergrad at older ages, too, so I think you’ll be absolutely fine. Good luck!

    6. Policy Wonk*

      In government we often get interns who served in the military before going to school, so your age is more the norm than the exception. I’m guessing that it’s not uncommon in industry, either. I wouldn’t worry about it.

    7. Guacamole Bob*

      It might depend on the field, but in mine this would not be a big deal. I went back to get a masters when I was 32, and I was a summer intern at 33 (and pregnant! just to make it even more atypical). I think it was a plus to them because they gave me a fair amount of responsibility when they realized I was capable of it – I basically ended up doing most of the planning for some community events that summer, and doing some analysis that they supervised pretty lightly.

      But in my field most people in a masters program are at least 24ish and have a bit of work experience. 27 would not be at all remarkable.

  44. BossLady*

    Sending emails on July 5 is somewhat silly. I should probably just schedule them all to go out on Monday at this point, so I don’t have to spend five minutes deleting OOO messages. Just a random vent for one of the few on the skeleton crew in my office today.

    1. Wordnerd*

      Yep, I sent an email to four people just now and got three-out-of-the-offices. Decent chance the fourth person is also out and just forgot :-)

    2. dealing with dragons*

      I used to do ticketing and during the end of the year it was a nightmare of OOO emails. people would email in, despite being OOO, CC their entire department, and it would cascade into madness.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That would save you the OOO and they probably will get to them faster if they’re sent out on Monday too =X

    5. Sparkly Librarian*

      I sent something July 3rd and got an OOO reply through the 15th, so I forwarded it to the alternate contact listed therein. She got back to me at 4:57PM, requesting the attachment that I HAD originally sent but which got lost in the forward (hate email sometimes!). I sent it back to her at 5:03 and got HER OOO: I am out of the office through 7/7. *sigh*

      Today is my last day of maternity leave, and I would really like to get this kid insured!

  45. SciDiver*

    Been job searching since November and I got an offer this week and the salary is almost exactly what I had in mind! Had a call with an HR rep this morning to confirm benefits (which are great even though I’ll officially be a temporary employee thanks to soft money), he seemed a little surprised I had so many questions. After the benefits bait-and-switch at my last job, there was no way I wasn’t going to find out everything I could ahead of time.

    1. New Normal*

      Congratulations! As someone starting the job hunt, what sort of questions did you have, if you don’t mind sharing? And congratulations again!

      1. SciDiver*

        Thank you! My offer didn’t have any details, just that I was eligible for “most benefits”, so I asked about most everything. For the health plan, I asked about the coverage options they have, how much the plans cost, if they offer dental and/or vision plans, if there’s a grace period/waiting period (my last job required a full year of waiting before coverage could begin, and that was only if you qualified in the first place). PTO questions were about how much time is earned in a year, is sick time separate from vacation or is it all in one pool, how quickly it accrues, does it pay out or is it use-it-or-lose-it. A lot of my questions were also about the job classification and how I was categorized on their ladder, since it’s a numbered job series and I’m coming on in the middle, and I wanted to know a lot about career progression and promotion potential. Since I’m classified as temporary I didn’t ask about life insurance plans or retirement savings, but those are good to ask about as well! Good luck on your job search!

        1. New Normal*

          Thank you, I wouldn’t have thought to ask about many of those – what sort of terrible insurance makes you wait a full year for coverage? That’s awful.

  46. Overthinkers Anonymous*

    A colleague Fergus retired two weeks ago, and a goodbye dinner was held in our corporate banquet hall the following week. Attendees included his department and his fellow long-timers of 20+ years in the company. I was not invited, which is not at all the issue (I’ve only been here a few years, and we had only superficial interaction).

    The day of the dinner, I was preparing to leave and asked my boss if she wanted me to wait so we could walk out together, which we often do. She responded that she had a few things to wrap up, so I should head out without her. Fine, no big deal.

    I found out this week that she actually attended the dinner, which makes sense since she knew Fergus for many years. I’m just puzzled about why she was cagey with me about why she was staying late, instead of just saying she was attending Fergus’ dinner. Did she think I would be hurt to be excluded, even though I barely knew him?

    I’m not going to say anything, but I find myself wondering what my boss was thinking, and I’m circling the drain of second-guessing my behavior. Do I come across as petty? Should I be more careful about cracking jokes? Does my RBF make me seem impatient or difficult? Augh, my brain won’t stop.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Or, it is possible that she was following general etiquette rules that you don’t talk to other people about things they aren’t invited to.

      I sometimes think that rule goes overboard and creates some isolation and awkwardness that wouldn’t otherwise exist (and is in fact what the rule is supposed to combat), but I really wouldn’t take this to heart unless you start seeing a pattern of her not sharing info with you that wouldn’t be covered by that rule. Or that it would make sense to share with you for practical reasons despite that rule.

    2. New Normal*

      If it helps, that’s pretty much exactly how I’d ask if I were in her place and it has absolutely nothing to do with you. It would involve a whole flurry of thoughts as I realized you weren’t invited then worried you’d feel left out even as another thought said I was being ridiculous and you probably don’t even know him but I was taught not to talk about a party to people who aren’t invited so but of course you know about it… all in a few very awkward seconds.

      So basically don’t worry about it. Let your boss have her awkward moment and know it wasn’t about you.

    3. Gilmore67*

      Well, maybe she did have some things to wrap up. I am not sure what the issue is. I don’t understand your use of the word ” cagey”. She owes you no explanation on anything she does.

      Maybe she did feel funny that you were not invited and didn’t want to say anything. But since you didn’t seem to care and understood why you were not invited anyway so what does it matter?

      I don’t understand the cracking jokes statement either.

      Yes you are way over-thinking it. I don’t understand why this is even an issue. You are really making a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

    5. BethDH*

      Don’t worry about it! I guess if you see a pattern of people in your office being reluctant to tell you things or give you feedback, then it might be something to consider.
      But I bet that either 1) she actually did have a few last things to do or was taking advantage of the buffer time before the event to do stuff or 2) she went into auto-polite mode wherein you avoid referencing parties to people you know weren’t invited, and it had nothing to do with you as a specific individual.
      I know I’d do the same as she did for reason 2, and it would have nothing to do with which exact person I was talking to.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s considered rude to speak of an event you’re attending to someone who isn’t invited. Even though you totally get why the invites were handed out the way they were, others would be extremely hurt or just think it was tacky or an overshare on her part. So she did right by saying that she needed to stay behind for some other stuff and to go along without her!

    8. Overthinkers Anonymous*

      Thanks all for the confirmation. I knew I was spiraling, but somehow hearing it from others just works better.

  47. KarenT*

    What are y’all currently using to keep yourself organized?

    I currently put everything in google calendar, which is great for reminders and I travel frequently and my email automatically inputs flights, etc into my calendar, which is hugely helpful. I miss a paper planner though. I was thinking of a bullet journal, but frankly seems like too much work. I found a thing online called a passion planner, which I like but they are kinda pricey. Any recommendations?

    1. CTT*

      I had a Passion Planner while in school, and I liked the size and setup of it, but found the actual passion planning part of it a little…not silly, but I had trouble getting engaged with it. If you’re very into Life Plans and updating them, it’s a good choice.

    2. dealing with dragons*

      I use a bullet journal but it doesn’t have to be that bad. It’s a framework, not a prescriptive system.

      I’m trying out notion.so right now, and I’ve heard good things about evernote.

    3. BethDH*

      I use a top-bound notebook. I added heavy-duty sticky tabs to create sections for a running to-do list / action items (which gets transferred to online lists in appropriate work/home places — basically Trello for projects and Keep for personal tasks) and for notes for major projects, plus a section for a month-by-month overview of really big stuff (think 4-5 lines for the entire month, just enough to help me spread out major commitments).

    4. Tegan*

      I don’t get on with paper planners as things change around a lot for me. Anything with a clear date goes on my Outlook calendar. Otherwise I use an electronic to-do list app called TickTick (it’s similar to Todoist but has better features).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I keep things in my calendar but I always have a handprinted checklist or planner/journal because the act of putting things in there by hand sticks it in my brain better. An online one doesn’t have the same effect on me.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      I usually snag the year planners from the local university store when I want a paper planner, but then I work in academia, so it’s useful to have that schedule re-enforced.

    7. OtterB*

      Take a look at the book The Bullet Journal Method by Ryder Carroll. I had ruled out bullet journals because they seemed like too much work (color coded! art! which is fine if it works for you but made me anxious just thinking about it). Reading that book, the concept is much more starting with the basics and adapting to whatever you need. I am not following the method well, but I do find it helpful. I am also using a graph-ruled composition book rather than a fancy notebook.

      1. Errol*

        I used a minimalist bullet journal, so a fancy way of saying a hand written planner… it’s perfect for me! I have sections to track my projects and dates and it’s all in one place

        Can also use a pre-printed weekly’s calendar (if you don’t have a ton of stuff) with the bullet journal key to keep track of things

      2. Melissa*

        I have used a bullet journal style for 2 years that is modified. I don’t track things daily, but weekly. I find that one page per week works well. I support 4 librarian selectors, so I’l have many orders coming to me via email, and those get listed, and checked off as they are done. And any projects or meetings get listed. I even take meeting and phone call notes in the book. It had made a big difference in how organized I FEEL, because leaving so many tasks in my in-box was stressing me too much.

        And it helped tremendously recently when my annual review happened. I was able to flip back through and find accomplishments to list that I had totally forgotten.

    8. Combinatorialist*

      I have the Panda Planner and like it. (Also my email tells me they are all on sale right now). I’m not super on top of using it daily but it helps when I do. Also the pages aren’t dated so when I miss days, I don’t lose pages in teh book which is really helpful for me

    9. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I have kind of unusual work hours and really needed something that had a grid broken into half-hours that covered the hours I actually had appointments and meetings. I ended up using a desktop publishing program and just making myself a week-on-a-page layout that had the hours I needed in grid for and various daily/weekly tasks to check off below. I print it out every week (I’ve been gradually tweaking the format as I get used to it) and then write my appointments in by hand for that week so I can see the shape of my week. I then note the more “drop-in” discussions with people on it as well so I can keep track of which times of day and days of week I get the most questions, from who, and about what. (This is something that makes sense for my role but I could see it not making sense for a role where you spend less of your time in a question answering/support type role. I want to know if certain things get lots of questions so I can be proactive about getting better explanations out there, and also to keep track of who is and isn’t asking questions.)

      For things over a week out, I keep anything that might impinge on a workday in my work Outlook calendar so everyone can see when I’m busy/free/out of office. For personal stuff not on weekdays, I don’t have much of a system. I have a lot of weekend meetings and events with a non-profit org that uses GSuite for everything, so that stuff gets tracked there, but I haven’t really figured out how to unify personal/work/volunteering in one spot well. I don’t really want my job to be the keeper of my entire calendar since I’d like to have personal control over my calendar records, but I also don’t want to leak potentially confidential information outside of work by exporting all of my work meetings elsewhere, so I’m having trouble with finding an appropriate way to keep everything synced.

  48. New Normal*

    I’m putting together my resume and, thanks to reading this site, I’m using bullet points rather than paragraphs and not shrinking my font to get it all on one page and focusing on outcomes rather than making statements. So that’s good. I’m stuck on some verbiage, though. I want to show I have management skills and that I’m good in a “ fast-paced, quickly changing environment.”
    For management, I’ve been managing a gift store connected to a small, local museum for the past year and doing everything that that entails. Payroll, finances, sales, cleaning up our POS system, training and supervising new hires and volunteers, marketing, etc. But all I can think to put are statements. Actually, all I can think is “Managed ALL THE THINGS” because the burnout is real.

    For the fast-paced environment, that’s also such a part of my daily life that I can’t think how to word it. A normal day involves me getting halfway through one task on my task list then being called away to help a customer then sit down only to put out a fire then get called on by one of the museum board members to help them print something then finish that one task then there’s a question about the register …
    If I’m to narrow it, the time that best shows my ability there is during our annual fundraiser gala where over 200 people make purchases (usually large ones) in our one-register shop in a three-hour span. But I’m worried that only shows I can deal with one fast-paced event once a year.

    I know I’m overthinking this but this is my first attempt to jump from the retail world to corporate so I already feel I’m at a disadvantage and need this to be amazing.

    1. New Normal*

      That should say I’ve been managing this shop for the past THREE years, not past year. I know I typed the right number … I’ll blame autocorrect.

    2. MsM*

      Flexibility/ability to juggle multiple urgent priorities is a skill that fits better in a cover letter or interview than a resume, I think. You demonstrate it in the latter by listing as many of the things you can fit without making the resume ridiculously long. I think it’s helpful to have a “master resume” that incorporates everything you think might come up at some point, and then pick the strongest/most relevant bullets for whatever listing you’re working with. For instance, if they say managerial skills are important, then you make sure the training and supervising work is in there.

      And no, I wouldn’t worry about anyone (or at least anyone with enough common sense that you’d want to work with them in the first place) reading your fundraiser gala example and assuming that’s the only time things get busy. It’s an example that encapsulates everything in a concise way, and I’m sure there’s also a lot of prep and follow-up that keeps you busy as well.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Yes, definitely put this in your cover letter instead of your resume. This wording is perfect:

        A normal day involves me getting halfway through one task on my task list then being called away to help a customer then sit down only to put out a fire then get called on by one of the museum board members to help them print something then finish that one task then there’s a question about the register…

        Even if you’re not applying for a particular job at the moment, you can still have a “building block” version of your cover letter. You know you’ll need this sentence at some point in pretty much every cover letter, so keep it handy, and you can insert and re-use it whenever you need it. Good luck!

        1. New Normal*

          Thank you! I never would have thought to put that exactly in my cover letter – I tend to be formal verging on stilted so having “permission” to anchor it with that sentence is hugely helpful and gives me the tone for the whole thing!

          1. Matilda Jefferies*

            You’re welcome! My cover letters have improved a ton since I stopped trying to be super formal, and started writing them in my own voice. It was actually a great CL from here that made me think of it – I’ll see if I can find the link.

      2. New Normal*

        Thank you. Hopefully this will become my master resume. Thank you for the reassurance about the gala! That all really helps.

    3. Errol*

      I personally have never quite got the words right to show just how busy it was in a bullet point, so I use the closest I could and then use my cover letter as a place to highlight jumping priorities and such. I put things like “managed competing priorities and tight deadlines” on the resume but in the cover letter really expanded to highlight that skill.

      I’ve worded these differently because I can’t 100% recall what was on my customer service resume but “I am a person who can confidently handle multiple pressing priorities while still ensuring excellent customer service” and “really thrives in fast paced environments” are some phrases that have been pointed out to me in interviews as to why they interviewed me for reception jobs and such.

    4. Combinatorialist*

      So I think something for the resume that is helpful to think about is what is the difference between your performance and mediocre performance in the job. Those are accomplishments that can be included on the resume. And then in the cover letter, you can tell a story about the gala (for example) and the skills you used to pull it off.

      I would start by making a huge list of all your accomplishments from this job and maybe a few different stories about different aspects that show you are awesome. Then for each job, select the accomplishments and stories that most support the claim “I would be awesome at this specific job.”

  49. Ethical Question*

    I am looking for staff jobs in Higher Ed, and am in process of applying to jobs at various local universities. One of my friends asked me if I’d thought to look for positions at our city’s Historically Black College & University.

    Is it ethical for a white person to apply to a position at an HBCU? I know the history behind HBCUs is that they provide a safe space for African-Americans away from white discrimination, and I’d be concerned I’d be appropriating or taking jobs away from the African-American community or violating their safe space.

    I’ve worked in many majority-minority communities in the past, so I’m used to being in environments where I’m the minority, but I don’t want to be taking away resources from a historically marginalized community or be encroaching on their safe space, either.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Honestly, how each place handles it varies. I would say that you need to visit the campus and see who is working there and what the reaction to you as a white person on campus is.

      It’s all really fraught and I don’t think there’s a one-size fits all answer to this question.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I knew someone who worked at an HBCU, and he said it was the one placed he’d ever applied where he knew that if there’d been a qualified AA applicant, he wouldn’t have been offered the job. So there’s that.

      I know the history behind HBCUs is that they provide a safe space for African-Americans away from white discrimination

      That’s an awfully generous way of looking at it.

      1. Tegan*

        For a non-American who has never heard of these can you please explain why it’s generous?

        1. Ethical Question*

          Jim Crow and Segregation meant that African-Americans were not allowed to attend most schools at all. In the South, there were legally white schools and legally black schools, run by city school districts, with the black schools being in poor repair without adequate materials and the white schools being well-built and amply supplied. My current state’s university system didn’t allow black students to enroll until the mid-1960s, which is just disgusting. (And somewhat shocking to my personal experience, my alma mater up North was aligned with the abolition movement and accepted African-American students from the day it was founded.)

          1. Tegan*

            Thanks ever so much for the explanation – it is much appreciated. I thought it would be something like that but I wasn’t sure of the details.

        2. Admin of Sys*

          I’m guessing it was in reference to the statement that the segregation of HBCUs was to “provide a safe space for African-Americans away from white discrimination”, rather than HBCUs being created by the black communities because, by and large, the extant universities’ admission policies were racist and generally forbid african americans from attending.

    3. 2 cents*

      Ehhhh, if it’s not your dream job, I’d stay away. I don’t think you would be taking a job away from an African-American, as it would be the school’s decision to hire you, but if you’re not entering this space with intention, I feel it is a violation of their safe space.

      I think a place like an HBCU can only be enhanced by a white person if that person’s mission is to devote their career to the advancement or benefit of African Americans.

      Just my two cents!

    4. Gloucesterina*

      I think it’s hard to talk about in the abstract, and it would be important to familiarize yourself with the mission and culture of the institution (as with any university) and how a particular job opening intersects with their specific mission. For instance, I could see a student life/student affairs role as one that wouldn’t serve the mission of an HBCU to have lots of non-Black people serving in (although there could be hypotheticals that I am failing to imagine here, I do not work at an HBCU). But the hiring committee is going to have serving the mission front and center as they sift through applications, so I would discourage you from feeling guilty if you were to receive an interview or a job offer as a white person, and have a healthy faith and respect in the decisions of the committee.

      As anecdata, one of my colleagues is white and works at an HBCU as a staff member. When they was hired, her boss was really focused on what my colleague’s prior experience (at a historically and predominantly white institution) could bring to the unit, not on their racial identity.

      1. Gloucesterina*

        oops – When they were hired, their boss was really focused on what my colleague’s prior experience (at a historically and predominantly white institution) could bring to the unit, not on their racial identity.

      2. Ethical Question*

        Thanks! Honestly, I’m looking for admin-type jobs. I wouldn’t expect to be student facing or doing anything particularly hands on, unless I’m signing them up for their online pay stubs or directing phone calls, that sort of thing.

    5. Argye*

      I’m faculty (you can see my post below), and the College that has said I should expect an offer in an HBCU. Honestly, it *does* concern me. I didn’t specifically come out and say, “BTW, I’m white” during the phone interview, but have thought since that perhaps I should have, and of course, they can’t really ask. Will I take the job if offered? Yes, probably, unless the salary is horrible. I’ve also been thinking that, if I want to go into administration, it would have to be somewhere else. A white Dean at an HBCU? No, just not a good look. I don’t know, I’m struggling with this as well. I want to be sensitive, but, well, I need a job.

    6. Ethical Question*

      Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your feedback, it’s been really helpful!

  50. Question for the non-profit readers*

    I have a question about getting more development/fundraising experience for an entry level development coordinator/assistant position.

    After several months of aggressively job searching, I’ve FINALLY gotten some job interviews over the past month. My interviews are generally decent & I’ve gotten calls because of my nonprofit/office work experience, but I think it’s my lack of experience with database management that’s been preventing me from getting hired. The reason why I think it’s this specifically is because it’s always been a big part of the jobs I’ve been applying to- I have experience in everything else that’s being asked, but I don’t really have a lot of experience in database management. How do I get more experience in this? A lot of companies I apply to usually use Raiser’s Edge or Salesforce.

    For more context, I’ve had four interviews last month & two more coming up next week. One was a phone screening, two were video interviews & the last one was an in person interview. I’ve asked for feedback from the last three interviewers after being rejected but I never got a response. I did fairly well the last two interviews, and in the last interview I was at I had good chemistry with the two interviewers so I was disappointed that I never got a response back about their hiring decision.

    1. MsM*

      Have you done any data entry or reporting work at all? Even familiarizing yourself with the more advanced features of Access or spreadsheets is better than nothing. If not, look around for volunteer opportunities.

      Of course, the other alternative is to do training on your own, either online or via a class. If you really want to get into the field, it’s probably worth the investment. Also, if you live in or near a major metropolitan area, Salesforce has lots of meetups for people who want to learn more. Depending on the location, some of those may even be nonprofit-specific.

      1. Question for the non-profit readers*

        I’ve done some data entry, but it’s super basic. I volunteer for a small non-proft where one volunteer enters in memberships using a different software (not Raiser’s Edge or SalesForce). Would entering in memberships or sending mailings reminding people to renew their memberships help beef up my resume?

        Also, that’s very help that there are meetups specific for Salesforce! I see if there are some in my area.

        1. MsM*

          Totally! If it’s a SQL-based database (which most are), that’ll give you at least the basic gist of what working with Raiser’s Edge is like.

    2. Bex*

      Could you look for data entry temp jobs? Or, call local nonprofits to see if any need volunteer help with data entry? If you’re pretty sure that’s your weak spot, then it makes sense to try to shore up that area. As a hiring manager, I would also appreciate a candidate who was capable of identifying possible problem areas and proactively addressed them.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’m in a similar spot/hoping to go in a similar direction. Watching the thread to see what advice you are getting.

    4. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

      It’s hard to get experience in software, unless you can actually work with the software! I’ve been there – it feels like you are stuck.
      For Salesforce, can you go through their online training or webinars? I don’t want to make Alison work over the holiday, so I won’t type in the website link, but I googled Salesforce org training and came up with the learn salesforce link – I think they call it “trailblazers” and some webinars specifically on the salesforce org training. I would start there. Best of luck!

      1. Question for the non-profit readers*

        This is very helpful! I’ll go on their sites and see what webinars they have!

    5. Morag*

      The only time you ever need specific database experience is if you’re going to be managing said database. The basic concepts of Raiser’s Edge transfer fine to Salesforce, and vice versa – my day job is managing a Raiser’s Edge database!

      So many nonprofits would love assistance with data entry. Do you have capacity to offer a couple of hours a week for a data entry project? For context, I’m in the UK, and I’ve got a volunteer helping me verify our Gift Aid declarations and scanning them to supporter records. It’s only a couple of hours of her time, but it’s great experience for her and it means that my salary isn’t getting spent on lower-skill higher-time tasks.

  51. FaintlyMacabre*

    I started a new job and am finding I don’t really like it. I have a check-in coming up to discuss how things are going with my boss and I don’t know what to say.

    I’m bored and and unhappy the job, but it is a good step for getting to where I ultimately want to be. It’s also a much slower paced job than I’m used to, and I find being productive hard when I don’t have external pressure. It’s too bad, because this job has a lot of great points. I guess I need to emphasize the good points to my boss and to myself while working towards my next step.

    1. MsM*

      Have you considered saying, “I’m used to a faster-paced environment, and I find I’m struggling a little bit with the lack of deadlines. Do you have any tips on managing that, or are there projects you’ve been hoping someone would tackle that might make sense for me to add to my portfolio?” If there are any potential improvements you’ve noticed that you think might make for good projects, you can bring those up as well. Also be open to listening: it’s possible this is just the slow season, and things are about to ramp up.

    2. RandomU...*

      How long have you been in the new job?

      I have purposely held back work for new employees, because I know that with the floodgates open it will be too much. This is especially hard because I am hiring people who are more comfortable with a fast pace. I do tell them that I’m doing this, so they can focus on A and B areas, while learning our business and products (which is no small feat!). It does usually result in a bit of tug of war over work and frustration on their part.

      I don’t know if this is the case, a result of new employee ramp up, or it’s just a slow paced job. But in any case I’d have the conversation with your boss.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You may also want to roll your thought process back and reel in your boredom at the moment, since you’re still so new. It’s often the case when you first start out, when you’re a high performer having training wheels put on your first few months can feel obnoxious and frustrating, since you know you can jump in and just go all in. However most decent employers want you to wade in regardless, which may be happening here.

      You say this is a stepping block to where you would be happy, how far away is that place you want to be? If you’ve been there say six months, is it another year away? Throwing in the towel and deciding it’s just too boring and terrible to deal with is going to cut your path short, you’re going to give up on the future for something that’s a temporary issue [boredom/disinterest in the job at this very second]. If there is something on the horizon, it’s best to grind through the monotony towards the sunset instead of just saying “Screw it” and packing yourself up and hoping you find something else that’s closer to where you want to be to be engaged with the work you’re doing.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      You sound like me in my last job. I ultimately ended up quitting to accept the position I’m in now (and LOVE). Anyway, I was told during the interview stage at my last job that it was a fast-paced environment and there would always be a lot of stuff for me to do – there wasn’t. Every time I turned around it was, “Oh, I gave that project to X (even though X already had three projects to my zero). Maybe the next one,” or “Oh, the RFPs are slow to come out – find something to do with yourself” (which I did, and used that project to land my new, higher level and higher salaried job). I got tired of constantly having to fight for work, or having my grandboss have to fight my manager to give me stuff to do (she wanted to give out all the cool projects to her friends, of course), so I reminded myself that I took the job in the first place to use it as a stepping stone (this company pays well below market for the position), kept my resume up to date, and applied to everything that appealed to me come my one year anniversary. I was gone six months later.

      If this place is really so boring that it’s sucking you dry, you may want to brush up your resume and start your job search. I say this because the response you get out in the job market will determine how much longer you need to stay in this role. I started applying for new jobs six months into my last one due to boredom, but I got nothing but crickets in return – the places I wanted to work wanted someone with way more experience in my field than I had at the time. Still, I’d put in an application here or there just to see what would happen. I only got traction once I was 13 months into the job. If you apply for stuff and have the same results I did, well, you know you need to keep your head down at work, create your own projects (if you can), take some online classes if you can’t, and then start applying again later.

      Good luck!

  52. EnfysNest*

    I’m not sure if I have an exact question here, just looking for a bit of discussion on the whole topic, I think? Anyway, I participate in a local community theatre, mostly in musicals, which always prompts a bit of discussion when it the topic comes up – I am an engineer with a government agency and I’m on the quieter side at work, so people are usually surprised to find out that I love going up on stage and singing and dancing in front of strangers in my spare time. :P

    A couple of my coworkers have come to plays I’ve been in in the past and they often will ask what my next show will be and express interest in seeing more shows at my theater. One of them, “Steve”, has also gone with his wife to see other shows there that I wasn’t in – the theater really does some great productions that often sell out the full run and Steve and his wife seem to really like seeing the shows. Steve has encouraged others to go see shows there when the topic has come up before.

    I’m really excited for the current show I’m rehearsing for – Tianic: The Musical – and I have mentioned it to my coworkers (just in terms of “what did you do this weekend” type conversations) and most of them have expressed interest in this one, including some who haven’t been to my theater before. I’m very excited for the show and I would love for anyone I know to come see it, although I certainly wouldn’t expect it by any means, or feel bad if none of my coworkers could make it. I’m not in a supervisory position of any kind, but I still want to make sure no one feels obligated to buy tickets. Several have said something like “We should get the whole office to go,” though, and I want to be sure my response is okay. I’ve been saying something like “Oh, that would be neat. I don’t know the details for group rates, but they’re on the theater’s website if you all decide to go together.” I don’t tell them the exact ticket price for regular tickets unless they ask directly. Does this seem like the right balance? Am I overthinking it entirely?

    And while I’m overthinking things – my character and her fiancé have a couple lines in a conversation with a bit of (*very* mild) innuendo (they are pretending to be already married so that they can share a stateroom on the ship, and there’s one line specifically referencing the fact that they’re sharing a bed out of wedlock) and they kiss a couple times. This is so mild that, really, it shouldn’t get any comments, but if for some reason a coworker who sees the show does say something (again, especially because I’m so reserved at work, it *could* be mentioned just as a “Wow, was that weird for you to have a stage kiss?” kind of comment), I can just laugh it off with something like “Haha, yeah, that’s why it’s called acting”, or something like that, right?

    Anyone with any tips on those sorts of interactions or any other experience with theater/performance stuff that coworkers have attended?

    2. Eillah*

      Caroline Neville or Kate McGowan? Can’t remember the dialogue off hand….

      also, I think your response hits the perfect note.

      1. EnfysNest*

        Caroline. :)

        I guess part of my train of thought is also where the line would be for a theoretical different show that was more extreme. Like, if I did a show that was comparable to a PG-13 movie, I’d have to decide whether to just tell people ahead of time if they sounded serious about getting a ticket or if I would decide not to mention it at work at all if I wasn’t comfortable with anyone from work seeing it and just hope Steve and his wife didn’t end up going to that one by chance or something.

    3. OtterB*

      I sing with a women’s barbershop chorus and sometimes mention it when people ask about what I’m doing on the weekend, etc. I am a quiet data cruncher and, like yours, my coworkers are surprised to find that I have a hobby that includes public performance occasionally with sequins and false eyelashes. Our public shows are usually free, so there’s not the “buy tickets” issue, but I try to balance letting people know when/where we’re singing, since they sometimes ask, and not being a nuisance about it. I think you’re fine. Also, re the mild innuendo and stage kiss, it seems unlikely anybody would ask about it, but you’ll probably be more comfortable if you have a neutral response in your pocket. I’d opt for something along the lines of “I enjoy taking on a variety of roles,” but whatever works for you.

    4. SophieChotek*

      Sounds like are you are doing it just right.

      And I love “Titanic: The Musical” – saw the Broadway tour and I’m waiting for a local college or community theater around me to do it so I can see it again. I don’t know why more don’t – it’s such a great ensemble show.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Don’t have any advice (and you are overthinking this, but you already knew that), just wanted to say, as a fellow closet performer, break a leg!

  53. Finally a Fed*

    Not really looking for advice, this is more of a cautionary tale for those doing STEM research in the federal government looking at going to industry. I posted here just over a year ago about finally being hired as a fed after being an in-house contractor for over 10 years, only to have the rug pulled out from under me the first week on the job due to a conflict of interest with my spouse’s job. In the end, the legal counsel office would not budget and my SES was not going to push back, and ended up choosing to leave a job to work at spouse’s company. Well, before a year was up, we both knew we’d made the wrong choice. While our line management is good, the company leadership and decision making is highly questionable. More importantly the technical work that I’ve ended up with is not nearly as fulfilling as what I was doing at my previous agency – not nearly enough resources are provided to ensure that new products that will be fielded are sufficiently safe and decisions are being made by people with no technical background. I just don’t think I can get on board with research for shareholder profit vs. government mission.

    Due to the circumstances of my departure, there’s general consensus with my former coworkers that even if the conflict of interest was removed, my old SES would not approve my rehire. So, I had pretty much written a return to my former agency off. However, due to a chance encounter a few weeks ago, it came out that another location on the other side of the country would be thrilled to rehire me and it’s possible their legal counsel will not take issue with spouse’s job as a conflict of interest – apparently the legal counsel at each location has broad jurisdiction and rules vary widely. They were hoping that they could just reinstate me, but that was not possible due to my very short tenure, but luckily, the had an open position that I could apply for competitively. The kicker? It tops out at a GS-13 and my previous position was a GS-14/15. Anyway, I passed cert and will be interviewing in the next week or two.

    So, the good news is that I could happily end up back at the agency I love. The bad news is I will have traded locations from the same coast to opposite coast and a GS-14/15 to a GS-13 in the whole mess.

    1. HappySnoopy*

      If/when you get the offer, I know secong hand some people have been successful getting a starting step to be higher to equaye more with the salary change of location/downgrade of gs level.

      Good luck!

      1. Finally a Fed*

        When I talked to management about this, they were fairly confident I would come in at step 10 (and there was precedent for that) given my previous position/current salary, which is almost exactly the same as where as was on the GS-14 scale (which I had negotiated up from a step 1). So, the only real downfall is 1) needing a promotion to get to a 14 to increase salary and 2) not having an easy transition to a 15. However, my agency is starting to compete all leadership positions for 14s and 15s, so opportunities are likely to come up fairly regularly.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Welcome back to the government! As HappySnoopy already stated, you should push for a higher step to match your prior salary. Not knowing what spouse’s job was, it is likely that the difference in the ethics clearance is more due to the fact that the new GS-13 position won’t have the ability to impact spouse’s employer that the GS-14/15 would. In any case, good luck and again, welcome back.

      1. Finally a Fed*

        Thanks for pointing that out! I hadn’t thought about the grade vis-a-vis the conflict of interest. Before I was hired I consulted another location’s counsel and they said “no problem” with caveats of course, and then my location’s counsel interpreted the rules completely different. My spouse is likely to transition to gov in the next couple years also, so if the GS-13 puts less stress on the ethics issue for now, that would give us some breathing room. We will have to jump the legal hurdle before I can officially accept the job – either with them allowing it with caveats or spouse changing job. When this issue came up last time I was removed from all of my tasks until there was a resolution which is not a situation I want to be again.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      Depending on what coast you are referring to, look at the cost of living adjustment for the GS schedule. I am a GS13 in the Bay Area and the COL adjustment is 40% so I make more than a GS14 would in NY, for example. I would also see if you can start on a higher step, or have the position reclassified as GS14/15 (sometimes this is possible though it can cause delays if HR pushes back on revising the position description).

      1. Finally a Fed*

        I should have mentioned that both positions were remote, so no differences in salary due to COLA.

  54. Jules the Lighthouse Dog*

    After four years in a position which has changed slightly, last month I got a biggish jump in responsibility, specifically to take over some of the duties of two people who are classed as a step higher than I am. I’m excited, as my role has left me with enormous amounts of free time interspersed with tedious detail work. The new responsibilities are intellectually satisfying and I feel as though I’m actively helping the mandate our small team has. All good. My immediate supervisor, next up boss, and team members one step up all seem pleased.

    Our organization only does promotions once a year, and unfortunately this year’s process begins next month! I spoke with my immediate boss and indicated that I thought the new responsibilities merited a step up, with the attendant pay increase, but also I was aware that I had only just started performing the new duties. If promotions were on an ad-hoc basis, I would have waited. However, the financial implications mean going forward asap is the ideal route.

    I spoke with our HR rep (who was accidentally in the office on a slow day, talking with one of my favorite coworkers, who had been reclassified last year) and she told me all the steps and how she’d approach my bosses, with whom she’s worked for years. My immediate boss asked me to write up all of the ways my role has morphed since I started, including the most recent duties, and she would go to the big boss and take the temperature. I’m cautiously excited – doing the reclassification during the HR period set aside for it is a) much easier on the department and b) much more likely, as an off-cycle reclassification asks for about 3x as much bureaucracy.

    So, anyone having done things like this a little early? I really really want to stay in this office – I love my colleagues and the work and the bosses. We are an unusually functional office, looking around at others in the same organization. I don’t want to leave, but I am going to need more money.

  55. Who's asking?*

    How have people worked around having samples of their written work and protecting their employer’s confidentiality? In my case it’s written work and internal how-to manuals for proprietary software, but the how-to manuals are unlikely to give competitors key information of how to magically beat us. Also, how useful would a screenshot of a page from a manual I’ve written be for another company in evaluating my written work?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve just used a super low stakes portion of the manual. Like “this is something ANYONE in the industry knows, not just something that people at Current Job have to know”. One/two pages max. Then I include samples from other projects that weren’t technically based.

    2. Jen RO*

      When I was trying to leave my first tech writing job, I used an anonymized version of a document I had written (I chose something fairly generic and changed the product name to Product X). I didn’t ask for permission, which was not exactly ok, so a few years ago I started doing some ‘extra’ work that is not tied to the company. So far, I have a user guide I wrote for a friend who wanted to manage her own WordPress blog, some documentation on a software tool we use and which wasn’t properly documented by the vendor (detailed field descriptions and troubleshooting), a bunch of internal training materials and a presentation I gave at an university. I don’t have anything very too technical in my portfolio, but the market here is very much in favor if the candidate, so I am pretty confident that these samples will suffice.

    3. Writing Samples*

      I have used obsolete versions of documents to demonstrate scope and style. Not just Rev C when Rev D is current, but more like “Here’s how I documented Adding Machine Operating Instructions, and now I’m doing Solid State Drive Operating Instructions.”

      I’m very careful to state in interviews “These samples are published on the company’s website, and these other samples were for internal use but are obsolete. Everything here is used with permission.”

  56. Training??*

    Have any of the commentariat gone through the “Up Your Service” training based on Ron Kaufman’s book? And how do I aviod ever having to do that again?

    1. GreyNerdShark*

      Yes, and if you find out, tell me!

      I can see the point but the training was way too rah! rah! for this techie, and the concept that you have to keep doing more for the same money offended my worker solidarity side.

  57. Automaton*

    I’m thinking about leaving my current job before the 1 year mark, solely because the company is not doing well financially, and I have a feeling another round of layoffs will be happening within the next 6 months. Otherwise, I love my job, my coworkers, and the location. Benefits and salary are decent but nothing to write home about. Jobs are plentiful in my industry. My last two jobs were tenures of 1.5 years each. What would you do? Is this job hopping?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I think it depends on what field you are in, but I don’t think it would be that big of a deal. I moved a lot in my early 20’s so I had a lot of shorter term jobs and I haven’t really had a lot of difficulty finding a job. I would be really honest if you do go interview and just say that the company is having issues and layoffs are happening. But I would try to make it a point to find a job that you plan on staying on for a couple years just so you don’t have a long-term pattern like that on your resume.

    2. fposte*

      Job-hopping isn’t a felony, you know :-). It’s a term for a pattern of behavior that may have some effects on future hiring. Lots of behaviors have effects on future hiring, but people still get hired.

      That being said, if you can be open about the possibility of layoffs, nobody’s going to begrudge you a job hunt in those circumstances. The question is more whether they want somebody who either is likely to stay longer than 1.5 years (if you have longer tenures before that or if those are contract jobs that’s less of concern) or if they want somebody with a deeper growth pattern than you can get in that time. Some industries care more than others, and even those that care don’t necessarily make it a deal-breaker; it just means you can get beat out by a candidate with a different kind of history. If you’re in a field where jobs are plentiful, I suspect it’s not going to hurt you much.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        And if it does seem like they’re looking for someone who can stay longer, you can say “I’m disappointed to be job hunting, because I really wanted a position where I could stay for a few years, but the company’s financial position makes that untenable.”

    3. BeeGee*

      If you enjoy the job, why not just continue until you are laid off? If you are in the US, some states do not let you file for unemployment benefits if you quit rather than being laid off. Plus, most layoffs allow some continuation of your health care plan which is much more affordable and often you get severance. But I understand that being unemployed is not ideal and unemployment payments are not as hefty as a normal paycheck, so I don’t see any harm in applying to a new position in the meantime if you see the financial situation at your current company as dire. If you explain in interviews that the company is downsizing/having financial problems, most employers understand.

      TLDR if you are considering job searching for your own job security, I think that’s a smart move. If you want to quit preemptively I wouldn’t, because there are more benefits in being laid off than quitting.

      1. Tegan*

        I thought the plan was to get another job, not quit preemptively – think you may have misread a bit.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Yes, it sure is job hopping,. But you gotta look out for Number One, which is you, and if you think you’re likely to get laid off in 6 months or so, you should plan your exit strategy. Anyway, it’s 100% reasonable to explain to your next prospective employer that you’re seeing the writing on the wall at CurrentJob and want to get out while the getting’s good.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Jobs are plentiful now, it’s the time to look for your next move and not wait until the hammer comes down.

      Right now you’re in control of your destiny in a way. This gives you time to negotiate and also to find a place you really like, instead of if you’re laid off and you go into desperation mode to get anything that pays you more than the 60% that unemployment will kick in for your bills.

      Job hopping being an issue depends on your industry. You were there for 18 months at your other jobs, do you have a reason to say why you left each one? Perhaps you moved or you were advancing at that speed?

      What looks bad is when you have a bunch of short term jobs all the same mundane stuff and you can’t explain your decisions to move on, other than “Just decided to try to hand over here.” That’s what comes off as flaky and possibly unreliable.

      Did you leave both those jobs in good standing? Do you have reliable references from there? I wouldn’t put too much stock in “job hopping” being something that will hold you down until you’re deeper into your career and if you’re in an industry or position that people expect to last awhile.

      If I’m here and there for just a year or two all the time, that’s bad because in accounting, you stick around longer in general. However customer service reps have a lot more leeway. Higher ranking jobs tend to want to know you’re not going to bounce in 1-2 years because they’re investing a lot in training you and sometimes you’re not solid until you’re a couple years deep given all the stuff to learn! Whereas if you’re trained within a few weeks, then it’s not a big deal?

    6. Autumnheart*

      I wouldn’t consider it job-hopping if you’re searching for a job because your current company is having financial troubles. I think it’s a good idea to start the job search now, because you can take the time to find a position that suits you well, and that might take longer than you expect. Worst case scenario, you’re made redundant in the interim and can hit the ground running with your job search.

  58. Jen RO*

    Thanks to everyone who gave me advice about my employee with low self-esteem in the 4th of July thread! You have confirmed that I am on the right path: I don’t expect to single-handedly change her perception of herself, but I give her honest feedback on both the areas where she is doing well and the areas she needs to improve, and I am working on getting her a significant raise and promotion. I do hope this will show her she is valued! I don’t know if she is in therapy, but she is very self-aware, so I am sure that she does realize that part of her insecurity is her brain conspiring against her. She has talked about taking antidepressants and seeing a doctor, so she is working on her mental health for sure.

  59. Anonymousse*

    Someone has posted a blog on our staff intranet about racism and ethnic minority groups. Specifically, they talk about their experience of being White (this is how they’ve formatted it) and how they grew up surrounded by White people so they thought racism was just exaggerated but then they visited Africa and met some people who lived in huts with no electricity which meant they got to experience being a minority so they realised everyone is the same and we should welcome people from other countries.

    I work for a non-profit which wants to be more diverse but isn’t, and where people in minority groups aren’t heard from much while white people congratulate themselves on being inclusive. I am not a POC. Am I wrong to think this is offensive and shouldn’t have been published?

    1. MsM*

      Noooooo. Yikes. I don’t know if you want to stick your neck out, but it sounds like a blog post on “why talking about wanting greater diversity without taking the steps to make a diverse workforce feel supported is Not Helpful” might be valuable for some of your coworkers.

    2. animaniactoo*

      UGH. It is super-offensive because it makes no connection to what people HERE have experienced and what they have been limited to HERE and not some other country which may have an entirely different priority/cultural values, etc. for basic living conditions.

      If he wanted to say that he hadn’t realized how isolating it could be to be regarded as different based on your skin color until he was the one with the different skin color, that is something different. But that’s not what he said, and is there any possibility that you could point that out without getting into massive overreaction territory (either on your part or his, that is)?

    3. Rey*

      A blog about their personal reawakening (by way of “I can afford to go on vacation to Africa and gawk at people who look and live differently than me”) is less helpful than a post about active ways to combat racism and lack of diversity within the org.

    4. Anonymousse*

      Thanks for the temperature check, all. I’m definitely going to raise it somehow.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Are you familiar with the article “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack?” It might be a good starting point for a conversation about how this person’s visit to Africa is not the same as the experience of an African person living in North America.

        https://nationalseedproject.org/Key-SEED-Texts/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack *

        *I thinkthis is the author’s original post; unfortunately it has been reposted and misattributed so many times that I’m not 100% sure. If anyone has a better link, I will definitely use it in the future.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Good lord, these sweet ignorant children of Jesus…I cannot.

      This reminds me of Alyssa Milano sending out a tweet about how she thought racism had ended after we elected a black president and she was SHOCKED shocked SHOCKED! that the klan still exists and has rallies out in the open. That’s a POV held by a lot of people in this country, no joke.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh dear, then the flipside of this is how I’ve heard non-Americans fight me about “racism” being “a big issue” in their country because “it’s not like how bad it was in the states!” they act like they didn’t have slavery just because you know…ya’ll ended it earlier than we did.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        And Obama isn’t even black! He’s biracial – America has not had a black president. If we did, people would have lost their damn minds even more than they already did.

    6. Femme d'Afrique*

      “Specifically, they talk about their experience of being White (this is how they’ve formatted it) and how they grew up surrounded by White people so they thought racism was just exaggerated but then they visited Africa and met some people who lived in huts with no electricity which meant they got to experience being a minority so they realised everyone is the same..”

      This doesn’t even make sense. I don’t see how people living in huts in Africa convinced them that racism wasn’t exaggerated at home but, whatever.

      In any case, this is the type of poverty porn that I absolutely despise, for obvious reasons. I detest this idea that Africa and her people exist solely as a backdrop for foreigners’ journeys of self discovery, with us – the people who actually LIVE here – serving as nothing but props for their self awakening. It’s disgusting.

      You say that in your country minority groups aren’t heard from; this Newly Enlightened Crusader’s Eureka moment hasn’t brought any new voices to the table either so plus ça change, eh?

      Maybe you can further this discussion, using the blog point as a discussion point? Many, MANY Africans have spoken out about this tiresome trope. Maybe you can use Chimamanda’s “Danger of a single story” as a starting point? Good luck. Sounds like you’ll need it.

      1. Anonymousse*

        More specifically they aren’t heard from enough in my workplace so, yeah, this is more than a bit gross.

        The single story TED is a great shout, thank you.

    7. blackcat*

      OMG NOOOOOOOOOO.
      Grade A colonialist bullshit.
      NOOOOOOO.
      NOOOOOOO to white people who travel to African to have some epiphany.
      No. No. No.

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      That shit is highly offensive because a) Africans and African Americans are not one in the same – our cultures are very different and our experiences in America, and throughout the world really, are often very different thanks to slavery; b) him sleeping in a hut for a few months does NOT make him an expert on anything having to do with race, and we should NOT be talking some bullshit, “We are all the same, kumbya nonsense” – we are NOT.

      It’s shit like this that irks my soul and why I’m sick to death of hearing anything about “allies” and “liberalism.” A lot of so called white progressives are every bit as racist and problematic AF as their conservative counterparts, it’s just dressed up differently.

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        Anonymousse is not in the US. And also, “Africans” aren’t all the same either, nor is there such a thing as an African “culture.”

        I agree with everything else you’ve written, though.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        It didn’t even sound like the blog poster had slept in a hut himself, only observed as a privileged tourist that some other people do actually live a different way than him in a country different from his own. It’s an epic-level cringe in every word.

        It reminded me of a book? or something (my Google-fu is failing me) that came out a few years ago that some young white (American, I think, possibly with political connections) woman published about her time in Africa, all framed like a journey of self-discovery while simultaneously teaching orphans and spreading love or something. Very, very self-serving attitude of “my privileged eyes have been opened by the suffering of others! And yet I brought them joy they would never have known without me!”

        1. Femme d'Afrique*

          There have been way too many such books, unfortunately. The one you’re probably thinking of was ostensibly “the inspiring memoir of an intrepid teenager who abandoned her privileged life in Scotland to travel to Zambia as a gap year student where she found herself inadvertently caught up on the fringe of the Congolese War.”

          It has all the tired tropes: an HIV positive orphan (a “smiling gap-toothed child with HIV whose greatest joy was to sit on my lap and drink from a bottle of Coca-Cola”), rebels (from Congo, which is thousands of miles away), poverty stricken villages living in huts who were mesmerised by the author who they apparently called a “long angel haired” Brit.

          The book was thoroughly debunked, but the author wouldn’t budge. She released a statement from Los Angeles (where she’s pursuing a career in, uh, acting): that “I know that the skinny white girl once so incongruous in Africa still lives on inside me.”

          It’s so f****ng tedious. OP, you might also direct your colleague to the Barbie Savior Instagram account.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      At my last interview, I got “a tell me about a time you received negative feedback and how did you deal with it?” The question itself was fine and I had a good “I learned something” story. But then the interviewer followed up with, “And how would you quantify your success?”

      I blinked and asked her to repeat the question. She did, and was clearly waiting for a metric that, in my mind, doesn’t exist. So either she didn’t understand the point of my story, or didn’t care that the follow up (scripted) question was ridiculous in the context of my answer, though I cannot think of any answer where it would fit…

    2. Bostonian*

      tell me about a time you got results/success in your role that nobody else would have

      I may be fumbling the exact wording of the question, but the point is to hear the candidate explain how their performance stands out from others on the team who do the same thing (this confirms not only that this person IS a high performer, but that they’re self-aware enough to know exactly what it is about their performance/how they do it that makes them stand apart)

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      Not quite a “tell me about a time when” question, but one that I remember is “What would your current manager say about you that you would disagree with?”

      I wasn’t expecting it, and totally fumbled it in the interview (although I did end up getting the job!). But I think it’s a great question, so I always prepare an answer to it just in case.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I would struggle with that question too, and personally I wouldn’t like to get it in an interview. Possibly I’m biased because I haven’t had a manager for longer than 6 months in close to 7 years in the same organization (minus 1.5 yrs when I was out of work), so I don’t think any of my recent managers have known me very well at all. After all, the manager at the time of my layoff (my most recent manager while I was interviewing) effectively said I’m not worth keeping, which I strongly disagreed with. :-/

        But I’m curious and probably need to be better versed in interview questions so can I ask, why do you think it’s a great question?

  61. PT Anon*

    I’ve applied to several PT jobs now, and so far have heard back from one. For a rejection. I’m not going for high skills level jobs. Just something I can do nights/weekends that’s a simple/straightforward job. Honestly, the rejection aspect is why I hate job hunting. It’s demoralizing enough to know that I got rejected from a job for a position in alignment with my FT career. But to get rejected for a PT position feels worse somehow.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Part time is tricky, a lot of people hiring for those roles have wildly unrealistic ideas of who fits the role.

  62. Myrin*

    ~*~ Storytime with My ~*~

    My little sister is a trained retail saleswoman. She has been at her current store for four and a half years now and it has slowly drifted into madness over time. Her boss is toxic and incompetent – she had her varicoses removed while on the clock, sides with employees who suck up to her even when objective facts (like dates of expiry on milk products) speak against it, leaves chaos in her wake, gets complained about by customers constantly because she’s rude, and most recently pasted a sign with “mortal danger” onto the door of a room with a known carbon dioxide leak and yet ordered her employees to go in there to get stuff anyway (my sister refused, saying “Are you literally trying to get us killed, boss?!”). All but two of the old staff who had been with the store for as long as I can remember (I’m 28) have left, mostly because of Toxic Boss, and since they were bought out by a competitor two years or so ago, rules have become even more ridiculous and employees have nowhere to turn to (and Toxic Boss’s boss is not much better; his most memorable trait is that he seems to be a flower fetishist who orders literal tons of flowers which then have to be thrown away because no one small town can buy all those flowers!).

    In any case, sister has been trying to get out for quite some time but couldn’t really find anything fitting. Then, about six weeks ago, my coworker John approached me and asked if my sister might possibly me interested in a role in the drugstore I work at part-time; he knew her from when she did a mini internship there last year and was impressed by her skills and demeanour. I talked to her about it later and she was immediately super excited and sent in her CV.

    For all the initial excitement, it looked kind of bleak at first. My boss is known for taking her time even with pressing matters (John apparently had to pester her about posting the job ad at all) but since she hadn’t reached out at all after more than a month later, my sister resigned herself to having been silently rejected (which, I mean, obviously they don’t ower her anything but since I work there, it would at least have been courteous to let her know!).

    Now, thing is. The advertised position, the one John initially spoke to me about, was in the Writing Supplies department. It was my coworker Holly’s position. Holly fell ill late last year and has been out on medical leave ever since. They can’t fire her – which is obviously a good thing! – but the position needs to be filled in any case since they need the manpower. So in the meantime, there was a young woman filling her position temporarily with the explicit instruction in her contract that if Holly were to return to the workforce, her employment would end prematurely (this is entirely normal and standard practice here). If Holly wants to come back at any time, she can do so at the drop of a hat.

    The thing is, we all basically know that Holly isn’t going to return. Writing Supplies are hugely stressed and overworked during Return to School season, which starts in August, and then again during Christmas starting in November. Holly would be foolish to return during such a pressing time, especially since she only left because of the stress during RtS to begin with. She has also said in the past that she’d like to retire when her husband does, which is next year. So, yeah, it would hugely surprise everyone if Holly came back before retirement but well, you never know – her position has to be left open for her as long as she’s on medical leave.

    Turns out my boss didn’t want my sister to quit her fulltime job just to then be told two months later that Holly is returning and ha, she can’t work here after all! So she didn’t contact my sister at all (which… I’m not sold on that strategy, but oh well, that’s my boss; she’s great at many aspects of her job but has two or three really strange blind spots).

    Except then she did! She called our home two weeks ago and invited my sister to an interview. Only. It wasn’t for Holly’s position. It was for my coworker Martia’s position, who had been caught stealing on the job only one day prior! (There was an incident a few months back with cash going missing, resulting in stricter security measures. So I guess we got to find out who that was after all. Probably.) And since Martia, other than maybe Holly, absolutely is not going to come back, my boss felt confident in offering her position to my sister.

    So, long story short, sister got the job and will be starting work at my sweet little drugstore in August!

    She’s very excited and relieved and a little disappointed (this position is in another department and she’d really, really have loved to work in Writing Supplies and instead she got the one no one really wants to work at and which is most similar to her current store which is kind of a bummer) and a little apprehensive (literally the only two people who are a pain in this store – a mother-daughter team of unbearableness – both work in her future department, meh) but overall she’s just happy and relieved to be leaving that hellhole. Oh, and she also got a big raise, because my boss actually acknowledges her years of experience.

    So, happy dance for all of us!

    1. animaniactoo*

      All may still not be lost! When Holly’s job becomes officially available, your sister could apply to transfer to that role, yes?

      1. Myrin*

        That’s indeed the plan! At the interview, she specifically asked my boss about any transfer options and she was very receptive to that. But my sister is also open to the possibility that she’ll like the department more than she thinks at the moment, so we’ll so what comes of it.

    2. Emily S.*

      Congratulations to your sister!
      A big pay bump and a better work environment sounds fantastic.

  63. Notmynormalname*

    Disclaimer: I do not live or work in the US so there are no concerns about costs, vacation time or medical leave – I can afford to go through this and recover.

    I am going to have surgery in the fall to remove something that is probably not cancer but could be. I expect to be off 2 weeks, maybe more if the surgery cannot be done in the method they hope to use. Because of my role, I have to tell my whole division I’m going to be away. My immediate team knows why already, and that’s fine. I’m not sure how to frame it for everyone else. I don’t want to have to answer questions about what the leave is for specifically (especially until I know if its Cancer) but I also don’t want to deal with questions about vacation when I’ll have taken most of my vacation this summer (note: this is fine in my place of employment and my country). I don’t have to provide much notice to the general division but I’m not sure what to say. I know the reasons will get out to anyone who is at all interested, I just don’t necessarily want to talk about it until I know what it is I’m dealing with.

    In addition, there are some people I need to tell not on my immediate team before I need to tell the wider division and again, short of being really honest (and I don’t know how honest I want to be – but we are as a culture very open with this stuff) I’m not sure what to say. I think I might do it via email, and just say I’ll be out for surgery but I don’t know… Thoughts?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Say you’ll be out for surgery/medical procedure and don’t say anything else if you don’t want to because it may all come to nothing and then you’d have to deal with continuing to update people on a “oh, it was a “nothing to see here” situation, I’m all good.” Where you’re at right now, there’s nothing more to share at this point because nothing more is really known and it’s fine to wait to see if any further updates are needed.

      If it turns out that something more is needed, you can go back and say “Well, that surgery was exploratory to determine if X, and X turns out to be true and I will now need Y.” and if anyone pushes back on you about not sharing the full upfront you can simply say “I didn’t want to share anything that was not definitive, as there was a strong possibility that it would turn out not to be X and nothing more would have been required.”

    2. NicoleK*

      Your email can say that you’ll be out on medical leave. If some continue to probe deeper, than say, “I’d rather not talk about it, thank you for understanding” and change the topic.

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      “I will be out of the office until X because of a medical condition that is being further investigated and treated. If you need to talk about unobtainanium mining operations, please contact Navi’i at…”

      I understand the openness may make this seem brusque and weird, but I was hoping saying it’s still an investigation would make it also easy for you to dodge diplomatically and say, “I’m not sure about all the details, and it’s being investigated still. I hope it goes well.” When you get back you can be a bit breezy and say, “Oh, it was fortunately treatable. I can’t remember all the details of it, but anyway back to the Navi’i mine…”

    4. Errol*

      you’ll be out for a “minor medical procedure and will return on X date” . No need to tell people specifics. Minor medical procedure covers everything from dentistry to mind-your-own-business, you don’t owe anyone a more in depth answer.

  64. Hannah*

    The background: I ended up unexpectedly fired from an EA job at a firm where I thought I was doing reasonably well at the end if February, to the point that neither of the people I was supporting were told it was happening. (Both agreed to be references and have treated it as a lay-off). Due to bs in the separation agreement the firm asked me to sign, I did not take severance and instead went on UI (and they found in my favor).

    It took until mid June here, but I finally got an offer from a five person geographically dispersed teapot research and consulting firm. I took the offer because I need to be able to pay rent, I was able to negotiate her up to the salary I was making at the place I was fired from, and because the owner promised health benefits.

    I’m two weeks into the job, and I am keeping at applying to jobs, but not as intensely as I was during unemployment. The owner is balking on insurance and suddenly talking about it being just “health benefits” and that it “might be delayed. (ie, a stipend towards insurance on the marketplace, which…. ugh, no, not what you were talking about when hiring me). I only talked her into registering for pre tax transit stuff bc it’s free and would save her payroll taxes.

    She had indicated that 55k would be the top of the salary range for the position, which I was not thrilled about, but again, I need to be able to pay rent. However, she’s also been weirdly cheap about certain things despite being… I don’t want to say “stupidly rich”, but multiple trips to coasts/FL a month, and I’m starting to get nervous that she might decide to delay/not do health benefits “because it costs too much”. Further background: five other employees, and to this point no one else has needed benefits bc they’re either covered by their spouse, or they’re under 26.

    Am I wrong for continuing to look for jobs? And if I get asked about the situation in interviews, what’s the best way to put this?

    –

    Also, a further question – a place I applied at posted on LinkedIn about looking for someone to fill that specific position. Is it worth reaching out to the posters and asking if they’ve seen my application?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Keep job searching while this is in flux if you can do it without needing to take off a bunch of time for interviews. Hold on to what you have as a baseline cushion while you continue to look, EVEN IF it is not all of what you want, because unemployment pays even less, right?

      I would not reach out on the LinkedIn posting. It’s going to come off as weird.

      1. Hannah*

        Yes it does, yes it does.

        Not directly to the LinkedIn posting obviously, but worth trying to find a follow up point, bc the application system doesn’t send email confirmations that it’s been received, and the posting’s been open for a month. And I’m kind of stupidly qualified for the position.

        1. valentine*

          You’re right to keep searching. Her personal finances aren’t relevant. Not that she couldn’t be as cheap as she is rich, but she presumably doesn’t use her personal money to fund the business and you don’t know where all the trip money came from.

          Denying you healthcare and forcing the phone business cost on you is foul in the extreme. I hope you have your phone backed up in case she remote-wipes it and that your reps come through with that law.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This place stinks, either offer health benefits or don’t. It’s not hard to say “Sorry we don’t have an employer sponsored plan.” And without benefits she’s capping you out at 55k? I mean in some locations that’s great pay for an EA role but not when you have to then eat the thousands a year for healthcare out of your own pocket.

      I’m glad you’re still looking, keep going. Just use this place to keep you afloat until you’re out of there.

      You should only be as good to a company as they are to you. If they’re acting shady, then you owe them nothing but just showing up and then giving notice when the time comes. I would just tell people you’re interviewing with now that youre’ working a temporary gig since these people are total temporary territory with their behavior.

      1. Hannah*

        Oh also I”m using my cell for a work phone and not getting reimbursed for it, love it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I don’t really sympathize well with this kind of issue because unless you don’t regularly have a cellphone and aren’t on a pre-paid plan, it’s really not an extra expense. But I am the jerkwad who is always caught off guard when someone asks for the wifi password, living over here in my unlimited data life.

          You mention that everyone else is under 26 which seems like she’s probably used to taking advantage of people who are starting out and cannot afford to or don’t think they have the power to negotiate salary let alone benefits! So that may be what’s really happening here, she didn’t think ahead at all when she found someone who wants what they’re worth.

          1. Hannah*

            My state starting next year has a law where if you’re using your cell for work purposes, your employer legally has to reimburse you (specifically a reasonable percentage of the bill relative to use).

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              The details of the legislature will be interesting to read! I want to know how they plan on calculating it. Since it makes a lot of sense if you can point to a real cost to the employee but for someone with an unlimited plan, how will they suss out what is personal vs professional?

              It reminds me of the hell that the IRS made writing off a home-office and the fact that if you use it for anything else, ever, even to put coats in while you’re hosting guests, your write off is null and void. So this legislature will need a lot of details so everyone knows what to expect.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      And if I get asked about the situation in interviews, what’s the best way to put this?

      “My employer backed off on something that was included in her job offer.”

  65. worker bee*

    How can I convey to someone that I supervise that they should tell me what is going on with in their professional life? What is happening is that they are going to my boss and telling them (when they where contacted by another team to work on a special project, when they’ll be away at a conference, when this or that is happening in their professional capacity) and I am out of the loop and then my boss will ask me about something I know nothing about (and sometimes these things to wrong! and I am not prepared for them). They don’t seem to understand that I actually can help them get a better outcome, protect them if necessary and just have their back (all of which I have done for the other people who report to me). I have already had a few conversations with my rapport about this but it keeps happening; they agree but then “forget”. Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      So this is somebody you manage? Are you having regular one-on-ones with them where this kind of information would get covered? If you’re not, start those, rather than waiting for them to come to you. If you’re having those and they’re still not telling you who they’re communicating with and when they’ll be out, that’s a fairly significant thing and I’d be firm about it: this is a performance deficit that they need to remedy, and do they think they can do that?

    2. animaniactoo*

      2 avenues of attack:

      1) You need to explain to your DR that it’s not just a suggestion, it’s actually a requirement and continuing to forget is going to be problematic and you need them to be aware of that and be on top of making sure to notify you – in fact notify you BEFORE speaking to your boss.

      2) Because this employee has this pattern, ask your boss to back you up and push back on the employee when they’re going to your boss. “Have you talked about this with Worker Bee? No? I need you to go do that then. She’s your boss, that is who you need to have this conversation with.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Seconding that you should be having 1:1 with this person and that will give them the outlet to “remember” to loop you in. It’s all about making sure they have enough facetime to remember to talk to you, it sounds like maybe they dont’ have the concentrated time with you that they require. They’re just chugging along and are in “get it done” mode, not thinking “And I should update the manager.”

      1. animaniactoo*

        I agree that the 1:1s can be a good way to make sure that WB is in the loop – but I don’t think that this person can be given a pass on “And I have to update the manager” since they’re managing to remember to update WB’s boss, who, if I’m reading this correctly, doesn’t actually *need* to know some of this stuff.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I agree with you there for sure, this needs to be one of their “goals” put in place to communicate better. Which would lead to a PIP if they can’t fix their issue with whatever it takes to get them to remember to loop in the /right/ person aka the manager here! It could be as much as letting them know to email you and not wait until they see you even.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      As they keep going over your head I think you need to have a weekly check-in. Depending on the flow of your office, I’d start the week with a Monday morning one-on-one “What’s on your plate this week?” conversation. Doesn’t need to take more than 5-10 minutes. If with this on the schedule they still aren’t telling you things, I would think the person is intentionally trying to sabotage you.

    5. CM*

      Also, if your boss is reasonable, you should be able to tell them that this is an issue and enlist their help in redirecting your team member to you for stuff like travel time.

      I think it’s important to be clear in your own mind about what kind of stuff you need to know and why — and usually it’s reasonable that you need to know when people will be away and what they’re working on, even if you don’t have to approve it.

      I think I would frame it less as “I can help you if you tell me stuff” and more “I need to know this stuff to do my job.”

  66. Kate H*

    I’m in my first full-time job in a dysfunctional workplace and I need a little perspective. I work on a team of three (my boss, my coworker, and me). Everyone in the department would leave if we could, because of huge issues with upper management.

    Two weeks ago, my coworker clocked out on lunch and quit. Our boss was on vacation because it was his birthday. I found out when our department head called me and said “Hey, is Joffrey at his desk? I think he may have quit.” I had to scramble to send over some important documents on a project he was working on. On Monday, the only thing my boss said to me about it was “And then there were two.”

    Then, two days later, my coworker returned to work. Upper management promised to listen to his concerns and gave him a raise. Our department head is currently pushing the VP to give me one as well but he’s well-known to be sexist (I’m a woman, my coworker is a man) so only time will tell. Not only that, but my coworker was also offered a position created just for him a day after returning. I think he turned it down but the offer was definitely on the table, straight from our VP.

    Am I wrong to be upset about this? An employee walks out on lunch and in return they get a raise and a new job offer? My boss has barely said a word to me about the whole situation, other than to tell me in my performance review that he’d been about to train me on Joffrey’s areas when he came back and to offer me anything that would make my job easier.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Sounds like your co-worker’s negotiation technique worked.

      I wouldn’t take that as evidence that it would work for you, too. However, it’s definitely some information as to the dynamics in your workplace. But as for whether you should be upset? I’d be more inclined to think of it as “not my circus, not my monkeys.” You don’t know what the conversations were; you’re seeing only the results.

    2. fposte*

      I think you’re arguing about the deck chairs on the Titanic and that you should instead find one of the few workable lifeboats and hit the water.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Agreed! Or at least, quit and see if they offer more money and a raise to come back. ;-)

  67. Jen RO*

    Intern advice needed!

    In a couple of weeks, I will get my first intern… except she’s shared with another department. Basically, she is supposed to train as a llama groomer, but the llama grooming manager doesn’t have time right now; rather than lose the position, they offered me (llama grooming procedures lead) the intern. The plan is to have her research llama grooming techniques, then check our documentation of the llama grooming procedures and flag any inaccuracies. She will not be writing any of the procedures herself; I have become familiar with llama grooming through writing the procedures, but I haven’t done it myself.

    (OK, I think the llamas are getting out of hand – she is interning for a business analyst position and I am documentation manager.)

    I have never had an intern. From reading AAM, I expect that I will need to teach her everything about having an office job (and honestly I am pretty excited to be helping someone start their career). Anything else you wish your manager had done while you were interning or that you wish had done with your interns? Any experience managing an intern who will not actually be doing the same job as the rest of your employees?

    1. Alianora*

      I wish my manager had given us more regular feedback, and more explicit opportunities for us to talk to her about how the job was going. She met with us one time in the middle of the internship and one time at the end. A weekly one-on-one would have been great.

      I had some issues with another intern being consistently hostile and didn’t feel comfortable going to our manager with it, but in hindsight it was really something I should have brought up. So I would also recommend specifically asking her about her coworkers, not just the work itself.

  68. I hate coming up with usernames*

    Getting frustrated with waiting to find out what I’m teaching next year. Last year was my first year, and it was a ton of work figuring out my lessons, materials, and what to do next as the year progressed – I really want to get it done over the summer so I have more free nights and weekends during the school year. I was given a tentative schedule two weeks ago…but told it will change if a certain other teacher leaves. And I know that teacher is interviewing for other jobs. I’m really hoping they finalize things soon, because if I’m teaching AP I need to attend a multi-day training and do some serious prep work!

    1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

      High School teacher here. My advice is to expect the unexpected and prepare yourself for BOTH positions since anything can happen. There’s an old teacher saying, “better to be overplanned than underplanned”. Good luck!

    2. just a random teacher*

      Urgh. You have my sympathies.

      At least they’ve been up-front with you about not knowing yet. I once discovered they’d completely re-arranged which classes I’d be teaching when I came in to hand out student schedules in August, which was Not Fun since I’d spent several weeks (paid by the district) over the summer attending trainings and creating district-level curricular materials on the wrong things…the precarity of knowing what you’ll be teaching in the fall never really goes away, but as you’ve taught longer it’ll be less stressful since it’ll be likely to be stuff you’ve at least taught before at some point.

    3. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I’ve been teaching for thirty years. Believe me, this is par for the course. I once had an AP class taken away from me and the way I found out was when the new hire told me he would be teaching that class. This conversation was during preplanning, maybe three days before the start of school. Another time I had AP handed to me two weeks before classes began. No one thought to mention it to me though; I found out from the secretary because I happened to drop by the school.

      I have also seen schedules change two weeks after school starts. This happens because the administration suddenly realizes that Mrs. X only has eight students in third period and Mr. Y has 34 students during fifth period. So, Mrs. X’s class is cancelled, her students have to find something else to take, and she is given half of Mr. Y’s students. Sometimes Mrs. X has not prepped for that particular class AT ALL. You have to go with it. Expect the unexpected. Things change constantly.

  69. Princesa Zelda*

    I have a weird thing I’ve been hung up on for a while, and I think I might be overthinking things.

    I’m 23 and overall fairly healthy and healthy-looking. When I was a teenager, I screwed up my right ankle by falling multiple times from heights in choir, cheer, and drama and never going to the doctor. Now, I’m mostly able to manage with a brace and going easy on it — but not always. Twice a week or so, I’ll have a day where I’m on my feet for 12-16 hours, and by hour 11 it’s difficult for me to walk and by hour 16, I’m calling a Lyft to drive me home, and I only live a block and a half away.

    I’ve been considering getting a walking stick or cane, but I really super do not want to answer questions about why a “healthy young person!!!” has a cane, but only sometimes. I already keep one at home so I can walk around on bad days without hurting myself but tbh, when it’s that bad, I don’t get off the couch much.

    Am I overthinking this?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yes, you’re overthinking it. When someone asks, you can say “Yeah, old ankle injury. Bothers me when I’ve been on my feet all day.” But if you’ve been wearing an ankle brace, there’s a good chance your walking stick won’t be a surprise to anyone.

      1. Susan K*

        This. I don’t think anyone will be scandalized over a “healthy young person” using a cane during flare-ups of an injury. If they are, they’re jerks, and you don’t owe them any more of an explanation than you care to give.

    2. Rey*

      Dear Prudence had a column that included someone who was considered a cane for vision loss with similar questions. I’ll post the link in a follow-up comment so it can go through moderation separately.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Your health is most important. Maybe keep a mental list of responses at the ready:

      “Trick ankle, just need a little support today.”
      “Doctor’s orders!”
      “Must be some weather coming in.”
      “You should have seen the truck.”
      “Old Yahtzee injury.”

    4. Not Me*

      I think you’re overthinking it. If the cane will help you feel better, or at least not be in as much pain as you could otherwise be, use the cane. If anyone asks an ankle injury is a common enough thing I don’t think you’ll get any weird looks over it. You’re more likely to get someone commiserating with you.

    5. animaniactoo*

      Unfortunately, you’ll probably get those questions and you can’t avoid that. What you can do is figure out how you can answer them without going into chapter and verse stuff that you don’t want to get into.

      Some suggested replies:

      “It’s an old injury that didn’t heal quite right. Generally it’s not a problem unless I’ve been on my feet for too long.”

      “Old injury, it was just really bothering me today and I don’t want to take the chance of making it worse so I’m babying it.”

      and eventually it will become a relatively known not-big-deal thing to your co-workers. But, it’s also smart to let it be known that it exists because it just helps people around you to adjust to what you’re capable of and that’s better for you and your ankle. You can continue to push the “Yeah, I’m a generally healthy and capable young person” attitude while making it known that bodies are fragile and sometimes you do damage. Including that torn ligaments apparently never fully heal (ask me how I know – 20+ years later). So even young people have to deal with that.

    6. Anonandanon*

      Not really the answer you’re looking for but have you gone to the doctor again to find out if anything can be done or taking breaks so you aren’t on it for up to 12 hours at a time? Standing for that long for anyone causes pain so I’m not surprised you are experiencing it with the ankle issue you have.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        I have two jobs, so on those days I’m at one job for 6-8 and the other job for 6-8. I get a 15-minute break or 30-minute lunch in the middle of each and I have an hour between them to commute. So it’s not 12 /straight/ hours, but it sure feels like it. Doctor’s not really an option; I simply can’t afford it.

    8. EnfysNest*

      There’s definitely nothing wrong with using a medical device when you need it – at any age, full-time/part-time, etc. And that sounds like a really long time to be on your feet anyway!

      I’m 29 and, although it’s doing a little better now, last year I went through a patch where my knee kept buckling at random times for seemingly no reason. I ended up getting a collapsible cane that could fold down so that it could fit inside a slightly large-ish purse – then I could always have it with me in case I was having a bad day where my knee was buckling a lot, but if I didn’t need the cane at that moment, it was out of the way and I didn’t have to worry about storing it or forgetting it somewhere or anything like that. When anyone asked me about it, I would lightly say, “Oh, it’s just been giving me some trouble lately,” and no one would give it a second thought.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s rude AF for people to inquire about your disability and need for an assistance device. So this isn’t on you to worry about. Just respond with something quick like “Yeah I have a bad ankle that acts up time to time” or if it’s some stranger just be all “That’s rude and presumptuous AF.” You should not suffer due to the worry that rude people are gonna be rude.

    10. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      You will probably get questions, because some people are rude, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t “deserve” a cane if it’s what you need to manage your ankle. You’ve already gotten some good suggestions for comebacks here, but you’ll just have to decide what kind of responses work for you. I tend to the sarcastic myself, but earnest (or fake-earnest) oversharing about your medical problems is of course also an option.

      As someone who was also once a Young Person With A Bad Ankle (I am now a Somewhat Less Young Person With A Bad Ankle), I will say that going to physical therapy helped me a lot by giving me exercises to strengthen my ankle and increase my range of motion. I also saw a podiatrist who listed themselves as a foot/ankle specialist and got custom orthotics made, and wear hiking boots with ankle support as my everyday shoes. The combination of those three things has kept me from re-injuring my ankle, which has helped a lot. It’s still not the ankle I’d like to have, but at least I can generally walk on it all day and haven’t needed to see a doctor about another ankle injury for over 5 years now, so I’ll call that a win (I used to sprain it once or twice a year, often while doing normal things like stepping off a curb “wrong”). I don’t know if you’ve already tried those things or not, but if you haven’t and can afford them they were helpful for me.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        I’ll definitely keep the idea of hiking shoes in mind! PT isn’t really an option but I do exercises I learned in cheer every day and they help manage it. I haven’t sprained my ankle in over a year, praise be, but I came very close to stepping into a rattler hole yesterday and putting myself out of commission. Thanks :)

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I wear Asolo TPS 520 men’s backpacking boots, if that helps. I told REI that I needed somethings re-soleable with strong ankle support, and that’s what they suggested. A word of caution: breaking them in was an involved process (sock liners, duct tape, and Body Glide were all involved the second time I bought a pair, but I was also insisting on walking 10,000+ steps a day in them while breaking them in – the third time I didn’t walk as much in them while breaking them in and did not have nearly as much trouble, and the first time I was gradually increasing my walking after an ankle injury so that was its own thing too). They are not cheap, and I’ve found pairs last a year or two of daily wear in a walking-intensive lifestyle before needing resoling, and then are good for another year or two. (My original pair have been through a resoling but I decided to let them go after that the next time they needed one because the liner was getting pretty worn in spots, my second pair needs to go out for its first resoling but I keep putting it off, and my third pair is doing just fine on its initial soles.)

          (I walked dogs for a living back when I started wearing the boots, so they saw a LOT of outside use in all weather. The boots are waterproof, so I could wear them through puddles and just hose them off as needed if they got muddy which was a big help in that line of work. They would probably last longer worn by someone who walked less and didn’t beat them up so much. My current pair seems to be holding up longer now that I’m firmly in an office job.)

    12. OhBehave*

      Go to the doc now! Why wait when it will only get worse over time. Don’t fool yourself into thinking it’s too late to do anything about it after so many years. Your still very young and the possibility that something can be done now is very real.

  70. HannahS*

    I got a review at school that conformed HARD to the phenomenon of women in academia being described according to their personality traits instead of their skills. In fact, it kind of demoted me; on a numeric scale I’d earned an above-average score, but the review described me as average in that area, which was so infuriating!

    I called it out, sent a too-strong email (Hannah, for heaven’s sake, stop sending emails when you’re angry!), had to apologize, but I got to change the review.

    So overall I’m happy with the outcome.

    1. fposte*

      I’m really glad you pushed back there. I always want to spotlight and applaud reports where women spoke up and got what they wanted.

      1. HannahS*

        Thanks! It was really upsetting at the time, but I imagine that my frustration would have just festered and been a lot worse if I hadn’t been able to push back.

  71. Homer Thompson*

    I was just recently promoted. This is my first time being a manager or having reports. One of my reports is an employee who started here this week. I was not involved in the hiring process as I wasn’t a manager yet. The previous manager was the hiring manager before he was let go. My new report wears clothing and makeup in head to toe style of retro 1950s.

    We work in economics and finance. The dress code is very conservative and suits are expected anytime we are dealing with clients in person. Her appearance is not in step with the industry or our dress code at all. The previous manager was let go because of judgement problems with both clients and employees and his lack of judgement caused so many issues. I have been told she dressed like this for her interview with him. HR did the phone screen and he as the hiring manager did the interview.

    She is a brand new college graduate and she has no previous work or internship experience. This is the first job she has ever had in her life before. She is new and finding her footing and she hasn’t noticed her lack of following the dress code. I am certain the previous manager not saying anything has made her think this is okay.

    I’ve never had to have a conversation of this type before. I’m almost as new to managing as she is to the working world. My manager and HR say this is my problem to solve since I’m a manager now and I need to be the one to talk to her.

    I’m nervous. Any tips for a first timer?

    1. MsM*

      I would stress that you’re not faulting her for either not being aware or assuming this wasn’t an issue when nobody talked to her, and that you’re not making a judgment on her preferred personal style. But this is the dress code, these are the industry norms and the expectation when dealing with clients, and she needs to be aware of that going forward. If she decides that means she doesn’t want to be in this field, so be it.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      – Stop by her desk at the end of the day, perhaps a weekend. That way she’s not in a strange mental space all day thinking about her clothing, and a weekend allows her to retool her wardrobe, if necessary. And vent.
      – It’s not a huge deal conversation unless you make it one! “I’m not sure you’ve noticed, but generally people in your position wear X and Y. We need people in your role to match that. Would you be able to do that on Monday?” Then let her respond, if she wants. It’s her first job though, so she probably simply doesn’t know. Maybe there’s a parent somewhere giving her bad advice. Goodness knows we see enough of that.

      This gets much trickier if you’re a man here. I would not say, “For example, Lucinda generally wears…” because the point isn’t what Lucinda wears and as a woman she needs to match. It gets weird and icky. But it’s matter of fact, so come in with what exactly X and Y need to be. It’s much simply with, say, “Generally people in your position wear full length ball gowns and glass slippers” than “Well if you look at Cinderella, you should generally try to wear clothing similar to hers…”

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Based on it being suits, that’s just what you’ll have to go in with.

        “I’m not sure if Clarence went over this with you or not, but our office requires a dress code for everyone to be full suits. That’s because we’re a client facing business and industry, and our clients expect that people will be in suits. That means we also need you to match that. I understand that this may not be what you’re expecting, but for everyone in this role we need you to be dressed in this way, and .”

        If you can have this conversation before the end of today being right before a weekend, great. Then your employee can look up sales and go where she needs to go.

        She’s only been there 3 days, so I get that it’s hard to ask someone to spend a bunch of money and it might not work out… but sometimes that just happens. But you have a big problem you need to fix now to make her fit into this role, so it’s good to address it ASAP.

    3. Michelle*

      I think it’s fine to tell her to wear a suit if there are supposed to be clients that day. But the other stuff (her hair, makeup etc.) should be off limits. Trying to forbid that would be gross and violating.

      1. Anonymousse*

        I don’t agree with this. Hair and makeup aren’t off limits if they’re not appropriate for the role.

        1. fposte*

          I wouldn’t always agree, but I could definitely see that in this case. The look I was thinking of from Homer’s words is a very specific and noticeable vibe that could well drown out the vibe of “we are financial professionals here” even in a suit. This isn’t somebody just shopping at Modcloth, and it’s not an employer trying to control the which shade of peach lipstick. It’s more like “no cosplay makeup.”

      2. Anonymous Poster*

        There are limits, like demanding someone dye her hair because it’s not the right color, or do very tough straightening on it. But if someone has a side ponytail and makes Ronald McDonald’s makeup look tasteful… then yes, that would be something in the financial sector to have a conversation with them about.

        It is really, really situation dependent. I don’t think a sweeping generalization is appropriate here.

    4. fposte*

      I’m going to drill down a little on this one, because it sounds like the desired outcome is a new grad having to spend a crapton of money on clothes, which is a big hurdle.

      So does everybody at the firm wear suits every day, even the receptionist and clerical staff? Or is that she was hired to a particular position where suits are the norm? When you say “anytime we are dealing with clients in person” does that mean there are days when she wouldn’t be doing that? Do you think you’d want to retain her based on performance otherwise, given her lack of qualifications?

      What I’m really trying to avoid is you telling her she has to buy a pile of suits and then firing her when it turns out she’s not good at the job in general. It would actually just be kinder to terminate her and hire somebody else on a no-blame, give-a-decent-reference, a few weeks’ notice basis because you want somebody qualified and experienced.

      However, if her performance is good and she’s in a position where you inarguably need her to wear suits, meet with her to say that, articulate how many days a week we’re talking about if there’s a way not to make it 5, and give her a few weeks to make this happen if you can.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        Yeah, business clothing is just sometimes ridiculously expensive… If it’s going down that path, it may also be appropriate to mention that some articles, like suits, people generally only wear a couple colors. No one will notice if you’re only wearing the same 3 for a little while as looking for sales or whatever is needed for whatever a full complement would be in that situation.

      2. Homer Thompson*

        The job she was hired for requires suits. If the previous manager didn’t have such poor judgement problems she would have been told at the interview when she showed up in not a suit.

        Clients come in about 90% of those working days. These days are known in advance and on those days everyone who works here wears suits.

        On the other 10% of days the dress code here/in our industry is still professional. Men can get away with not wearing ties, people don’t need a jacket or blazer but we are still expected to dress formally.

        HR says I need to talk to her because they don’t want to do the whole hiring process again. I also don’t think it’s fair to let her go over something she isn’t doing maliciously and isn’t aware of. But the reality is she needs to have suits and dress formally and 1950s clothing, shoes, hair and makeup is nowhere close to formal or professional.

          1. Homer Thompson*

            She seems to be nice and a quick learner but she just started this week and only worked 3 days (the office was closed yesterday and today because of the holiday).

        2. fposte*

          Okay, but how about the question of her performance otherwise? Is it good? Don’t get hung up on the “it wouldn’t be fair to let her go”–it would be a lot less fair to keep her for a job she’s not suited for, in the figurative sense of the word, just because you feel it wasn’t her fault.

          It sounds like you’re not just talking about clothes but a total makeover. So you have to say not just suits but also a contemporary office treatment of makeup and hair rather than retro/rockabilly (I’m not sure what her 50s look is specifically, but you get the gist), to somebody who seems pretty committed to her look. I’d be kind and candid: “Bettie, I think you didn’t get good information when you were hired, so I need to talk to you about dress code. We require people in this position to wear suits when they’re in the office, and makeup and hair also need to fit a contemporary professional aesthetic. I like working with you and would like to keep you, so I hope you can make the change in clothing, hair, and makeup; we can give you two weeks to transition as I know that a wardrobe is a lot to change overnight. But this was also a fault on our side for missing this at hiring, so if it’s more than you think you can do, we will understand and won’t hold it against you, and we’d be happy to talk about negotiating a transition. Do you want to think it over and let me know tomorrow?”

          1. Homer Thompson*

            It has only been 3 days since she started here (started Monday, office is closed yesterday and today for the holiday).

            I have not been authorized to negotiate with her about her job. I see what you are saying but my manager and HR say I need to tell her the dress code and that she needs to start conforming to it right away. I do understand what you are saying but I have to follow the direction I am given. They want her to stay. She needs to start training and can’t even be seen by clients because her look (full rockabilly as you say from what Google tells me) is so far off the norm.

            1. fposte*

              Gotta say, Homer, it sounds more like you’re being treated as a mouthpiece than as a manager here. You shouldn’t have to be “authorized to negotiate” to give her two weeks to adjust her wardrobe, or to acknowledge that this is something that might be more work than is worth it for her. You’ve already clearly understood that this is a situation not really of her making, and good for you for that.

              So do what you can, stay kind and specific, and for general human decency’s sake be personally understanding if she can’t make this lifestyle change, which is what it would be for her, and leaves even if you can’t make your business be reasonable about it.

            2. AnonAcademic*

              Hi there, I’m a person who wears a vintage inspired aesthetic and have had one more conservative workplace tell me to tone it down. What I didn’t appreciate was the lack of specifics – I was even told the clothes I was wearing that day were fine, but that other things I wore weren’t, without any examples. Is the issue that she wears loud prints, clothes that are not modest enough, makeup and hair that is focus pulling? Is there a similar age female employee you could point to as a dress code “role model” or have take her under their wing? You would be surprised how much a good blazer and classic shoes can up the formality of even a pretty feminine 50s inspired dress, for example.

              1. Homer Thompson*

                There is a written dress code to point here towards and many women that are employed here. If there wasn’t an expectation of how to dress in the industry I wouldn’t even care or say anything.

                A 50s inspired dress (even with a blazer) would come nowhere close to meeting the dress code or industry expectations.

        3. OyHiOh*

          Does HR have a handbook with clear dress code? Unambiguous guidelines that a young woman in her first job ever can understand and come in to work on Monday conforming to?

          Double check that first!

          Because if you sit down with her this afternoon and tell her skirt suits and professional hair – there’s a 10 to 1 chance that on Monday morning she’s going to come in wearing a lovely 1950’s skirt suit and beehive updo. So go over the dress code *with* HR first, then go talk to her.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Right, I highly doubt a specific aesthetic/style is specified in the guidelines! I’m not even sure how one goes about enforcing what amounts to an unspoken norm fairly. On a gut level I totally get how rockabilly is not professional in finance, but how does one codify that?

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Does her employee handbook include a dress code? You can/should use that in the conversation. I’d say something like, “Look, I need to bring something up with you. It’s not about your performance, but we need to talk about how we can get your apparel to conform to the requirements of your job.” Then maybe some phrasing along the lines of, “I’m sure you’ve noticed that your colleagues wear contemporary suits and contemporary dresses, not vintage or vintage-inspired clothing” and “I understand I’m the first person bringing this up to you, I’m mystified as to why this wasn’t brought to your attention during your interview.”

      Also: “Of course I understand that it would be a financial hardship for you to revamp your entire wardrobe over the weekend, but we do need you to arrive on Monday in something that is more compliant with the dress code.”

      Finally, I think I’d try to end the conversation by giving her information. (a) Find out if anybody local is having a sale this weekend and give her a list. (b) Point her toward corporette-dot-com. (c) Ask her if she knows what a “capsule wardrobe” is and, if not, see if you can explain in a non-condescending way. (d) Give her a deadline for fixing this but tell her it will be understandable if she can’t run out and get a dozen new suits over a single weekend.

      Good luck! This sounds like a super awkward conversation but you’ll seriously be helping her professionally over the long term.

    6. Errol*

      I’m wondering if it would be easier to frame it as you’re going through the handbook with new employees and cover dress code, holidays, sick time etc. as she literally just started. Call it part of the ‘on boarding procedure’.

      You’ll have an easy one of “I don’t believe Old Manager went through this with you, but unfortunately what you’re wearing today isn’t within the dress code”

      1. fposte*

        Huh, that’s an interesting possibility that might work, given the transition and the short duration of her work.

        1. Errol*

          Plus if she’s a brand new grad with no other work experience, going through basic expectations and leave policies and such wouldn’t be the worst idea either. May as well set her up to succeed especially if you don’t think Old Manager would have done that with her.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Do you actually have a dress code, in writing, that you can point to, or are you talking about what people generally wear? If you have a written dress code this is easy. Pull it out and walk her through it. If you do not, you may not have grounds to complain about what she is wearing. In fact, if you don’t have a formal dress code, or if what she is wearing doesn’t violate it, you really shouldn’t be saying anything to her about what she is wearing. This could be perceived as discriminatory. I had this issue a few years ago with a young woman whose outfits were within our dress code, but did not fit the accepted, unwritten, office dress code. I asked another senior woman to mentor her on this – essentially give her the message that she needed to have a “meeting suit” that she wore when seeing people outside of her own office. When she didn’t have outside meetings what she was wearing was fine.

      1. Homer Thompson*

        We do have a written dress code, and it follows the expectations of the industry’s formal/professional dress code. So far all 3 days she’s worked she has not come close to meeting the dress code (personally I don’t care but the company has a dress code and there are industry expectations)

        1. ..Kat..*

          Give her a copy of the dress code! Tell her she is doing good work so far, but she needs to follow the dress code.

    8. Kaay*

      It’s good that you personally don’t have a problem with her wardrobe and appearance. Instead of trying to make her conform you should convince whoever is in charge that the dress code needs to be done away with. Dress codes are an antiquated notion. Your employee sounds like a breath of fresh air.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      I used to do a lot of retro dressing. Unless her entire wardrobe consists of nothing but gigantic flared skirts with crinolines (which I doubt), it’s not that hard to change the look so that it would blend into a corporate setting as she gradually gets some new pieces.

      Fifties style hair & makeup is a lot of work to maintain, and it is really conspicuous. Just doing a more relaxed hair & makeup is going to go a long way toward looking more like a real employee, and not a cosplayer.

      Also, if she’s big into retrowear, she is very likely to be an avid thrifter/consignment shopper, or sew some of her own things DIY. Because you can’t get that stuff retail on a new-grad budget.

      She doesn’t have to get an entirely new wardrobe by Monday. Just 1-2 outfits, and she can add on from there. It’s very doable.

      Good luck, hope the conversation goes well.

    10. Delta Delta*

      It almost sounds like she shows up in a costume. There might be a way she can keep some of her own style while conforming to the dress code. But, I think bring clear and direct – but not being a jerk, of course – with her the best way.

      Also, I’m a little curious about the company in a super-conservative industry hiring someone in a client-facing position with literally no experience. No jobs ever. No internships ever. This was bound to not go well in one way or another. (Yes, I know the only to get experience is to start somewhere, but this sounds like employee might be punching above her weight)

  72. Let's Just Say Eleven*

    Hi lovely commenters. I have been an independent contractor since I graduated from uni a few years ago, and I’m just now starting to apply for more traditional jobs (health benefits, anyone?). I noticed in my contract though that it requires I give 2 months of notice when I leave. This seems like a lot to me, since 2 weeks is typical when leaving a 9-5. Any tips for how/when to bring this up in interviews? My biggest worry it’s that this is going to be a deal-breaker for employers. Are my worries unfounded? Is there a way around this clause? Appreciate any insight you can offer, since I’m clearly inexperienced in this realm!

    1. fposte*

      Where are you located (what state, if you’re in the U.S.), and does your contract include a penalty for breaching this clause? Is your contract for a specific term length? You say you’re an independent contractor–are you on a 1099 or a W2?

      It just sounds a little like you might be illegally categorized as a contractor when you should be an employee, and if that’s the case, screw ’em.

      1. Let's Just Say Eleven*

        The contract is updated yearly, and I’m a 1099. I do really like this company and feel lucky to have great mentors and the opportunity to grow my skill set and make more/have more flexibility than most people do post-college. So I don’t think there’s anything shady about them. As to what state, we’re all virtual and spread out across the US, so I’m not sure which one state the laws would apply to – the one I live in and pay taxes to or the owner’s residence?

        1. fposte*

          My real question is whether either of those states are California :-).

          It sounds like I might have got the wrong end of the stick anyway, though; it now sounds like the contract is for a year and you’re given the ability to cut that year short as long as you give two months’ notice, which isn’t hugely unreasonable. The challenge of remote work is that it’s hard to just sound somebody out, but it’s possible that they waive the two months sometimes, so if you’ve generally gotten along with your manager there you could consider asking.

          I looked at that direction because it’s easier for you to find out the answer and because there’s often some play there. For future employers, it’s going to vary–it’s possible that some won’t be able to wait for two months, but for some it’ll be fine.

          1. Let's Just Say Eleven*

            Gotcha. It definitel sounds like my best bet is to talk with my manager one I get an offer then. We do have a pretty good relationship. Thanks for giving me some insight into what is normal!

  73. anon for this*

    I’m waiting to hear back from a job after a final-round interview. I’ve also just been accepted to a competitive week-long writer’s workshop that I would LOVE to attend, but should I start New Job I would not be able to accrue enough vacation time by the workshop week.

    I’ve heard it’s possible to negotiate for specific days off during the offer stage if you had prior plans. I wanted to ask: what’s the most polite way of doing so? Is it too pushy if I’m going to also try negotiating a bit on salary (I am not entry-level in this niche field but am still in my first 6 years professionally)? And is this kind of thing even possible in higher ed administration?

    I’d welcome feedback!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This has happened to me a couple of times. If I delayed scheduling a particular commitment because I had a job application pending, I’d never have any other commitments! I’d start the conversation with something along the lines of, “So, regarding my start date, I wanted to let you know I have an obligation scheduled for the entire Nth week of MonthName. I scheduled this a few months ago and I’ll appreciate it if we can work out some kind of flexibility for this week. How do you usually handle it when a new hire has something like this going on?”

    2. Combinatorialist*

      This isn’t too pushy. I did this as an intern (my prior commitment was more important to me than the summer internship). If you don’t have the vacation, you should ask if you can take the remaining days unpaid (if that is feasible for you). My company lets new hires go negative on their vacation balance for this reason, but I would say it is very normal to be allowed to do this unpaid. If it isn’t a horrifically busy time of the job, then I bet it will work out

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        ask if you can take the remaining days unpaid

        Yes, this is how I handled it the last time it came up for me. -sadface- for losing a day’s pay, but -happyface- for the pre-booked long weekend away.

        1. anon for this*

          Thanks! Do you know if this still makes sense for salaried employees to offer?

          1. Glomarization, Esq.*

            Sure, why not? I’d keep it in my back pocket, though, and instead start the conversation as I described above, in terms of “how do you usually handle it when a new hire has a previously scheduled commitment before their vacation/PTO accrues?” This kind of thing comes up all the time.

  74. Argye*

    For the first time in my life, I actually cried in front of my supervisor (Dept. Chair). No actual tears, but obviously choking up, etc. It was awful.
    For background, my Visiting Assistant Professor job here has dried up, after 3 years. I’ve had one positive interview, where they seem to indicate that they want to make me an offer, but they’ve had turnover at the Provost level so it was taking a while. I sent them my transcripts and they requested references over a week ago. Not a peep since.
    I also had a 2-hour Skype interview for a different place that I think went OK, though one of the committee members basically got in my face about how long it had been since I’d done externally-funded research. Great. Note: the position is about 80% teaching. That was also over a week ago and not a peep.
    If I get either, I have to get myself, 2 dogs, and a parrot into a new place 800-1000 miles away in under 6 weeks. Which means selling this house, which I bought last November, and trying to find something new. I *might* be able to negotiate a January start, but that would mean adjuncting for a semester here.
    So, now, I have to move out of my office and into the group Adjunct office while I’m still teaching the summer session. It feels like a really obvious and *public* demotion. I’m really not happy about it and it’s throwing me into an emotional tailspin.
    What set me off, though, was when the Chair, in an attempt to be supportive, kept saying, “You really ought to be able to get something. I keep telling people that I’d keep you if I possibly could.” It’s the *ought* that kills me. Thanks for making me feel like even more of a loser. That’s when I teared up.
    If I get neither position, I will adjunct for the fall and then seriously start looking outside of academia, though for what I don’t know, and I really don’t know even where to *start*. A friend recommended the Johnson O’Connor Foundation, though it’s relatively pricey.

    1. blackcat*

      Ugh, that’s tough. You aren’t exactly in the same situation as one of my friends, but it’s similar. In his case, he got a verbal offer in May and it’s still not an official done deal.
      I hate how academia treats young folks. I really, really hate it.
      Do you mind sharing your field? Or skill set? My husband made the transition out of academia pretty smoothly, but STEM is easier than non-STEM.
      Can you rent out your current place through a management company? That might be easier than trying to sell on a super short timeline. Alternatively, pay more to an agent to do more than usual as you sell from afar.

      1. Argye*

        I’m a biologist – mostly an evolutionary biologist. So, DNA sequencing, some mild genomics, tons of statistics etc. etc. Some GIS, some ecology. I’m not really a field person, so doing survey work really wouldn’t work for me.
        The worst part is that this isn’t my first time through. I was laid off as an Assoc. Professor (they were talking about me maybe going up for Full) in a museum-adjacent organization, which was nailed hard in the downturn. Nobody wants new Asst. Professors at 52. They want the fresh meat that will work the 80 hour weeks. It’s depressing.

    2. Dasein9*

      This is terrible. I’m really sorry you’re going through it. (Speaking as someone who was laid off the year after being awarded tenure and early promotion, here.) I really hope one of the interviews works out and the logistics are manageable. If you do need to go outside the academy for a bit, please let me reassure you that there are ways to craft a happy life out here.

      In the meantime, please keep remembering that this has nothing to do with your value as a scholar or a colleague. There is no “ought” here: academia is imploding in slow motion and you have been caught up in that.

      1. Argye*

        Yep, similar. Laid off as an Assoc. Prof. The pipeline doesn’t know how to process me. I don’t fit into the usual categories, so people get confused.

    3. Reba*

      Oh, so sorry, Argye. That’s disappointing, and I definitely get why you would feel humiliated by the office thing. I’m glad you’re getting interviews and also glad that you are preparing to look elsewhere.

      If you have to move quickly, would you consider renting your house?

      Best wishes as you sort your stuff out.

    4. VAP*

      I’m so sorry. I’m currently on my second VAP, it’s so hard. It drives me crazy, too, how much teaching-focused jobs seem to want for research backgrounds these days. It’s getting really unreasonable.

      And your chair is just out of touch. There is no “ought” in the job market these days; it’s so tight, and can be so unreasonable (I sat in a meeting and watched someone not get the first offer for a TT position because they’d asked a perfectly reasonable question about whether something nice but non-essential would be possible to arrange for their research, and it wasn’t, and for some reason that made half the hiring committee think that they were obviously unsuited for the position). It’s not you!

      I hope everything works out for you!

  75. Just a thought...*

    Ready for a quiet weekend after a tough first month in a new job, trying to fit in to the team, and balance not using “in my last place we did….” too much (trying hardly at all!) with the fact my first assigned task was doing a ‘fresh eyes’ full review of their policies and processes. Brilliant. Way to fit right in! (Sigh)

    Anyway, hardest thing is my direct manager’s style of communication, especially in non-work conversation. She’s an emotional exaggerator, is I think the best way to explain it. “Is that avocado in your sandwich? I hate avocado with the intensity of a thousand suns!” “We’re getting a new light switch to replace the one that broke last week – it’s quite literally the most exciting thing in the world!” “The bus was delayed in traffic and I had to speed-walk from the stop to the office to get here in time, absolutely DRENCHED in sweat, and my whole day is an catastrophe now.” “Its like when you have to ring a call centre and are sat waiting on hold for three and a half months, holding the phone while your toddlers grow up and go to college.” etc!

    So give me the truth: I just have up get used to it, right?? :) The whole team love her, and it’s a big friendly team who have longstanding work relationships that I’ve moved into. Draining! (I would say I’m utterly exhausted emotionally, and ready to drop, but… irony!)

    1. Argh!*

      Yup, you do. But just in case she also exaggerates at performance evaluation time, document every little thing.

    2. Susan K*

      It is so hard to refrain from mentioning how you did things at your old job, isn’t it?! But I think a little of it is fine, especially when they are specifically asking for you to use your previous experience to help them improve their policies and processes. I actually love to hear about how other companies do things and I often ask people who did the same job at other companies (sometimes like a poll, to see how many companies do X vs. Y, or if they know of a better way to do Z), so if people ask you, you can feel free to talk about it, as long as you’re not obnoxious. I have a coworker who is constantly saying, “This is stupid!” “That’s stupid!” just because we do it differently than his old company, without even knowing the reasons we do it our way, and that doesn’t go over well. Just don’t be THAT guy.

      Regarding your manager, yeah, you probably just have to get used to it, and I bet, over time, it will stop being so jarring to you. If the rest of the team loves her, she must have some redeeming qualities.

  76. Justin*

    Final update, I think. What a twist!

    So we had a meeting, where I laid out my more specific concerns with the “jokes” my boorish coworker has made about the mentally ill/”crazy” exes and such. And… he was…. bizarrely open and reflective? I was totally expecting him to be defensive and claim it was all “just a joke.”

    He said he falls back on what he himself referred to as “lazy jokes” when touching on something that makes him uncomfortable. So, he exports his discomfort and forces others to deal with it. He is also… about to start treatment because his daughter (13) is struggling with pretty severe emotional issues and he isn’t handling it well?

    ???

    Anyway, none of this makes the punching down okay (and why would you joke about it if your actual daughter is part of the group…), but the managers were clear he’s being watched and needs to deal with his (legitimate) issues differently. And now that he knows it’s me saying it, presumably he will stop himself before he goes to his wheelhouse in class.

    The thing for me is he didn’t try to downplay it and he agreed with me immediately. So I guess, though I still think he’s kind of immature and jerky, I’m going to wait and see if he really does make strides. I have enough empathy to hope things work out for him and his family but also to be clear that he has to keep it together in class.

    1. fposte*

      Well, hey, that’s a good outcome! I know, though, how disconcerting it can be when you’re braced for a big deal and it’s not–it’s like when you think there’s another stair but you’re actually stepping onto the floor.

      1. fposte*

        BTW, that probably also means you did a really good job in raising the issue with him. So good job there.

        1. Justin*

          I was ready for battle and then I was like, what do I do with all this vim and vigor?

          I hope no one thinks I’m diminishing the importance of calling out sexist/ableist/whatever jokes. In fact I think it shows the importance of people who feel comfortable doing so, especially if they are in the same demographic as the offender and are likelier to be taken seriously (so, a cis man calling out a man, etc). It’s a shame that that’s the case but all of us guys (insert other demos, too) who see a friend or colleague not acting right but don’t say anything because we’re not the direct target… we need to do better. They might actually stop and listen.

          I’m glad I tried.

  77. Should I Take Over A Business?*

    I think I know my answer, but I’d like to hear all your thoughts and recommendations.

    I’ve been invited to take over the business I contract for. I provide programming services to help keep the custom management software running. I do not work in the industry, but I am also a client. The owner has been very removed from the daily operations for a while and is looking to get out. It wouldn’t cost me any money, but the owner would be pulling all the cash out of the business so I’d need to at the very least come up with short-term operating expenses. There’s also a software upgrade looming that would be a big short-term cost and increase some expenses ongoing. Profitability varies and would only provide a side income vs a livable wage, unless I were to take over all the office staff jobs and then it would be full time for me and maybe a decent income. There are inefficiencies that could be fixed and that would improve the profitability but they would primarily involve switching to non-custom services that would eliminate the job I do now. The owner started the business as a service provider and expanded to match contractors with clients. They have good instincts for the service the business provides and are less strong in business management skills.

    I was asked because I have a good business sense and am the closest logical person to ask. I try to stay in my lane and just program, but I have lots of start-up and small business experience and I know accounting and marketing and often offer ideas for needed reports or functions that would allow the business to provide proper reporting or better manage clients. I don’t know if the owner plans to put the business on the market, open it up to other employees, or just shut it down. This is a valuable business for the area that provides a beneficial service. As a client, I find it very helpful. If I were to own this business it would be a side hustle/passive income stream for me, or I could overhaul it and sell it.

    My inclination is to not do it. I took this job to build on a skill that I hadn’t used in a long while. My hope has been to take on other clients in this software and others. The reasons to do it are that this is a business I would like to see continue. Also, it seems like many times in my career I’ve been presented with opportunities to own or create a business and I’ve always passed. They’ve never been the right opportunity, or the right time. I know that I’d need to have a passion or strong interest in a business to put in the work and take the risk and for various reasons nothing has fit. Maybe a part of me wants shoehorn something in to sort of scratch that itch and see what it would be like. But, I don’t know this business or it’s clientele. I don’t know who’s who in the area, and that’s important. I don’t know how to hire service employees or screen clients. I don’t particularly want to know these things. But I want more work and this would be an easy way to get it without thinking too hard. Running this business would also get in the way of my life right now. I’d have to plan vacations around it, change how my family operates for it. That could be worth it for the right opportunity but I don’t think this is it.

    My child goes to college in 2 years and I will have the freedom and need to change my work. I can go back to work for a company or continue to freelance. I can stay in programming or I can change careers. I think taking this company would be an easy way to avoid figuring all that out.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Is there any possibility of the owner leaving some operating capital in the business and you making payments to him over time to get him the rest of what he would be due?

      Basically presenting it to him as “I’m thinking about it but I know that my first obstacle would be having to cover these business expenses out of my pocket immediately.”?

      When you say your family, do you mean children or children + spouse/partner? If the latter, have you talked with what them about what the changes would be? How did they respond? If you haven’t talked with them, I think that needs to be your first step and no one else can reasonably give you advice until you know if your partner is on-board with it, against it, or ambivalent about it. If it’s a question of your kids and wanting to prioritize not upending their lives, wait, stop….

      Do you actually WANT to own a business? Be responsible for it top to bottom and all that it entails? Do you want that much responsibility on you? Because it’s a lot. And it should not be something you take on unless it’s something you really really want to do.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wait wait wait.

      He’s just going to drain the capital and say “here you do it”?

      That’s not his money, he has to pay off all his expenses first. Then he can take the profits, sure but he can’t just drain the account like that.

      Do you know anything about their actual numbers? Have you been given knowledge of the books, the debts that it carries and the payables and receivables outstanding? I’m sketched out about this “hands off” ownership and now they’re just like “Gonna pick up my wad of cash and leave, you want this shell of a company and client list? Good luck with finding the operating expenses to invest until you make up the fact I took all the money that was supposed to pay for those!”

      Don’t take this lump of coal. You will regret it.

  78. Sam*

    I have a teammate that tends to go on wandering rants during meetings. When you chime in it seems like he intentionally will take the opposing side to keep his rant going (in an effort to “play devil’s advocate”). If he senses irritation or that people have checked out he just digs in more to his rant. So if I agree, the rant continues. If I disagree, the rant continues. If I check out, the rant continues. Only to find at the end of most of his rants, there doesn’t seem to be an actual point. What are some good techniques cutting down on this?

    1. Wishing You Well*

      The meeting’s moderator needs to say “We’ve spent enough time on that subject. We need to move on.”
      And sometimes, “See me after the meeting if you have additional concerns.”
      If you’re not the moderator, speak up anyway. “Can we move on to the next item?” or “If we’ve covered the last item, I really need to get back to work/I’m expecting a (work) phone call, etc.”
      Good luck.

      1. ArtK*

        Running meetings doesn’t come naturally to a lot of people. They feel that it’s rude to cut someone off. Sadly, that results in situations like Sam’s. I’m grateful that I’ve worked with some people who showed how it can be done. I still get a clench in my gut when I have to stop some people, though.

        Having an agenda and being time-bounded helps a lot. “Sorry, we’re halfway through the time and we’ve still got 10 items to go” can help soften the implied “shut up and sit down.”

  79. Thany*

    I’m sure this has been asked before in an open thread, so maybe someone can send links if needed. But my question is how do people deal with working when they are pregnant? I am in my first trimester of my first pregnancy, and struggling with exhaustion, cramping, migraines, and nausea. I have only been working at this job 3 months, so I don’t have access to my vacation time till 6 months. And they are very opposed to working at home. Any suggestions in how to get through it? Does it get better or worse?

    1. RDR2 Ecologist*

      I am so sorry! I also really struggled in my first trimester. I was beyond exhausted all the time.

      Some things that helped me:
      Matcha – it’s a type of powdered green tea that is low caffeine but the caffeine is bound to the phyto-nutrients so it kept me more alert and less tired all day then any coffee or tea.
      Snacking – I kept my desk stocked full of high protein snacks and snacked more or less continuously.
      No meals at work – eating a normal sized meal would cause me to be exhausted afterwards. One of the first signs I was pregnant, besides my adorable kitty following me and purring at my legs each time I went to the bathroom, was that I woke up after sleeping 10 hrs, ate a full breakfast, went back to sleep for 4 hours. Ate a big lunch, stayed up about 2 hours, went back to sleep for 3 hours. Big dinner. Up for 2 hours back down for the night a full 10 hours.

      1. Catsaber*

        Snacking continuously also can help with heartburn, as I couldn’t do big meals either because it would be heartburn hell for the rest of the day. I had to take little bites, slowly, continuously.

      2. Thany*

        You know, I never noticed before but I also get really tired after big meals. Definitely helpful to be aware. I have been constantly snacking but still have meal portions at meal times. I’ll try to keep my meals smaller.

        The snacking constantly is exhausting. I used to love eating. Now I wish I could take breaks from eating. haha.

    2. Catsaber*

      In my experience, it got better in the second trimester, and then worse in the third towards the end – for different reasons than the first. In the first tri, I was EXHAUSTED and nauseated. Staying hydrated and taking lots of little walking breaks throughout the day helped (and if you drink enough water to stay hydrated, you will get all your walking breaks from going to the bathroom). I just had to get up and move around sometimes, stretch my legs. Sitting still was the worst. I think a standing desk would have helped a lot.

      Third trimester – I still needed lots of water but I also had terrible heartburn, so I ate lots of ice cream, as it was pretty much the only thing I could stomach. I didn’t feel as deathly exhausted as the first tri, but my muscles and back were sore.

      So my suggestions are: 1. drink lots of water 2. move around a lot – don’t stay in one position too long 3. get a variable desk riser if you can 4. make sure you have a good chair 5. eat whatever makes you feel good

      1. Thany*

        Thankfully, I already have a standing desk, and it’s been super helpful. Sitting is very uncomfortable for me, so I often stand. And if I get tired, I take sit down breaks.

        I like eat whatever makes you feel good! I’ve definitely been trying to eat anything that sounds palatable to get through it.

      2. Robyn*

        I am in the thick of the 3rd trimester and my experience was also exhausted and nauseated for the first 14 weeks, felt almost normal again until week 32 or so, and now I’m in the throes of so-done-with-being-pregnant-but-also-want-my-baby-fully-cooked.

        I was lucky to have a private office so I coped quite a bit by shutting my door and resting my head on the desk for times when I needed to wait out a wave of nausea. I also really felt energized after going for short walks – they seemed to wake me up again. I also tried to do high brain power tasks earlier in the day and lower brain power tasks when I was exhausted counting down the minutes until it was time to leave.

        Now, my big complaints are mostly that I’m uncomfortable all the time no matter how I sit or stand, I feel hot and swollen, and of course I have that neverending need to pee. I honestly don’t know how I’m going to get through these next four weeks with anything resembling productive work… Just focusing on documenting for my maternity leave coverage for now and trying not to think about how much longer I have to go!

    3. notsosharp*

      I’m sorry. For so many of us it’s so so miserable, and it feels like nothing is completely effective at keeping the symptoms at bay enough to get real work done. I just reached second trimester and am finally beginning to see the light at the end of that particular tunnel. Unfortunately, if you’re still pretty early, you probably have many more weeks of those symptoms left (I had them from week 6 through 14. Despite people promising me that things would start getting better around week 11/12, for me weeks 11-13 were the roughest of the entire trimester with much more active vomiting, etc. I have felt like such a slug at work for the past two months and have had such a hard time focusing.

      For some concrete recommendations that were personally beneficial:
      1) Find relatives with a pregnancy history (mom, sisters, first cousins, etc.) and ask them about their timeline and what techniques they used most successfully to combat morning sickness etc. People with similar genes can probably offer the best tip.
      2) For nausea, Unisom and B6 are no joke lifesaving. If they don’t quite do the job, get your OB to give you the prescription version (the formulation of that worked better for me). I stuck it out until week 10 with no drugs and then started kicking myself for not requesting them sooner. Same goes for painkillers for headaches/migraines. Unfortunately, though, this doesn’t really help with the exhaustion/sleepiness problem :(
      3) Bring plenty of food (especially sweet/salty carbs and high protein foods if you can keep them down) and lightly sweetened beverages. Then you don’t have to run around trying to find frequent snacks while you’re trying to work. Eat a little something every 1-2 hours even if you don’t know if you’re really hungry. If you have the ability to eat at your desk, it’s a life saver. I continually have a bad taste in my mouth, and having mints and sugar free gum available at my desk was also super helpful.
      4) Do drink coffee/tea/caffeinated soda if you can stomach it. A mild amount of caffeine is not going to be a problem and some days it’s the only thing that keeps me from napping at my desk. I did develop a weird aversion to hot beverages, so switched to iced tea and coffee.
      5) Pinpoint those couple of hours of the day when you seem to have slightly more energy, less nausea, etc. (mine was right after lunch) and make that the time when you dig in hard and get the really important things done.
      6) Give yourself permission to go to bed early. If you can arrange a slightly later start in the mornings that might help too (or try to get more done at night so you can sleep later and still be on time).
      7) Lean on partner/friends/family to help you outside of work so you can focus on resting and taking care of yourself. It might not be ideal if you aren’t planning to tell the news to family and friends for a while, but for most people trimester 1 is the most difficult of the entire pregnancy–the time when you most need to lean on others for support and are least likely to be doing so. Do consider informing a few trusted aids, if you haven’t already. They are usually so delighted to help with basic chores that you might not otherwise feel up to.
      8) Do you have access to any sick time yet? If so, consider taking some.

      Wishing you luck. Also wishing I had a magic bullet I could tell you about!

  80. Llama Face!*

    TL;DR: How do you tell a really nice colleague they are failing?

    Long version: I’m training a colleague who is a nice person, doesn’t seem resistant to correction, and has a desire to do a good job. However, they are just not retaining the training they’ve been given and are making repeated mistakes that they should not be making at this point. I’ve stressed the importance of keeping good notes(and actually using them), given written and verbal instructions, clarified what things are more time sensitive, and yet…
    The position they are in requires a fair amount of self direction and initiative both in cooperative tasks shared with other members of the team and on their own solo tasks.
    I don’t have any managerial or supervisory authority but my recommendation to my boss will affect whether this person is able to stay in the position.
    I don’t want to just throw my colleague under the bus but I’m not sure how else to talk to them about the problems. It isn’t just one thing- they are still too slow, not paying enough attention to detail, mixing up things that they ought to know the difference between by now, and not taking initiative.
    I think part of it is a personality thing; they seem to share a trait with a relative of mine who gets slooooooower and flustered when pushed too hard. But that just doesn’t work in my industry!
    Can anyone (especially people who have the above tendency) suggest another way of getting through to my coworker before I have to tell my boss they are not succeeding?

    1. Llama Face!*

      I should add: My bosses are definitely the conflict averse type and would not be good at having a “You need to improve in this way by this time or consequences” serious talk. They would get all vague and generalised like one of those useless interoffice dress code memos. And I don’t have the authority to do it myself.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Well carp. There goes most of the advice I posted below. Um. Okay, take out the date but still talk about the benchmarks in general and just talk about needing to be able to do those to succeed in the role. No mention of what happens if they don’t meet them. Would that work?

    2. RDR2 Ecologist*

      Since you are not a supervisor I would say something like this, but you should also be keeping your boss in the loop so they are not blindsided.

      Said warmly
      Hey coworker I know you are working hard, but I would expect you to be accomplishing A and B by now. Is there anything I can do to help you get there?

      Then see what they have to say. If they are shocked and like – wow I thought I was doing well? Then you can kindly tell them that you have seen they are eager to learn and great at receiving feedback but by X months most people can do A, B, and C without mistakes. What would help them get there?

      1. Llama Face!*

        Thanks RDR2 Ecologist,
        I have had similar conversations about specific parts of their job- although not a conversation about performance in whole, which maybe I need to- and I’ve even suggested strategies that helped me with various aspects of the work. I’d like to see them setting goals for themself (I did say this to them and gave examples) and figuring out tricks that work for them to self-improve. I think that they see some of the underachieving but they are just still doing the same things (trying hard but not effectively without changing their method or doing any new strategies).

        To add another level of aargh, we are open plan so there is not a convenient private space to talk unless I drag them off to a manager’s office (which would come across as VERY FRAUGHT). So I’m mostly having to do low volume conversations in public.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Have you asked them why they seem to keep repeating the same mistakes, and what they think they can do to correct it?

      While your methods are tried and true, sometimes oddball methods work for other people and they may need to figure this out themselves – but you can put pressure on them needing to figure it out. Part of that may be setting benchmarks “You need to be able to do this work with X percent accuracy by Y date, and be able to meet goals A, B, and C in terms of general competency. You seem to be struggling with these things, and at this point I’m not sure there’s anything more I can do to help you improve on those fronts, but I’m willing to try if you can think of something that I think will work. I want you to succeed at this, so talk to me about your perspective. What do you think you need from me in terms of training to be able to do that?”

      In the end, it just may not be work that they’re suited to doing and you should not regard that as a failure no matter how nice they otherwise are. Hard to handle somewhat, but easier on both of you if you can frame the results of their succeeding as being more in their control than yours.

      Their current approach sounds like it may be an aspect of Learned Helplessness, which may also mean that putting the face of this being more in their control could either get them over the hump or spiral them further away from it – and frankly, if it’s going to be the latter it is better to know now and let them go before it becomes a longterm issue for your dept/company/co-workers.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Hi animaniactoo, thanks for your reply! I do think there is an aspect of learned helplessness or possibly that they are just more of a “tell me what to do and I’ll do it” personality. It is hard to tell which and either way I agree it has to be them who initiates change (or not). I think your competency talk wording above (minus the date) is good and I should be saying something to that effect. I think I might need to find a place to talk more privately even though that makes it seem like a big deal (because we are really at big deal stage).
        Gaah, this is exactly why I don’t want to be a manager. These kind of conversations suck.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Good luck! Remember that they neither have to come up with the plan(s) on the spot, nor do you have to agree with whatever plan(s) they come up with on the spot. Time to think that over is a good thing on both sides.

          In particular, whatever they come up with has to be something that leads towards being self-sustaining, not something that requires ongoing support from you or someone else and that should be the focus of an plan refusals that you give. So, for example, there should be a tapering off built into anything that requires support they wouldn’t normally have like: “Okay, let’s try it this way. For the next week, I will remind you 1x a day. The week after that, I will remind you 1x every other day. The week after that, you will be entirely responsible for this and I won’t remind you at all anymore.”

          It’s okay to be clear that you think they aren’t succeeding now but temper that by saying you’re not saying that you don’t think they CAN succeed. This meeting is more about discussing what it will take to make that happen. And it’s okay for them to take it as a Big Deal since it is one. You can frame the meeting being private as giving them privacy and time to talk this through without having everyone listening in. So that it’s a big deal but not necessarily a Death Knell big deal. It could be that part of the issue is that they don’t feel they can be open with everybody hearing what’s going on so they’re holding back themselves.

    4. NicoleK*

      Honestly, it sounds like the job is not a good fit for your nice colleague. Where is your boss in these conversations? Your boss should be the one telling coworker that he/she needs to see improvements in x, y, and z or they’ll have to let them go.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Boss is currently away but also very non-confrontational (see my reply to my original post above). So I can’t expect much from that arena. :( I have indicated some concerns when boss was in but haven’t had another conversation with boss since then. I will talk with my boss also once they return to the office.

        I was hoping my colleague was a slower to learn but solid once they get it type of person but I am concerned at this point that you may be right. Anyway, I’ll have the awkward conversation on Monday and hopefully they can step up and show a strong turnaround.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a circle of hell that I’m all too familiar with.

      First of all, you have to remind yourself [frequently] that their inability to do the job to a satisfactory level doesn’t mean they’re “bad” people. They’re still capable of being kind, loving, smart individuals without having the ability to do the job that’s at task. This isn’t going to be a judgement on their character, it’s all about their abilities, which are in reality limited and don’t fit the requirements to be truly successful in the role at hand.

      Be truthful with the leadership that wants your feedback. Let them know what you’ve laid out here about the tools and resources and assistance you’ve given and your observations of them not doing things fast enough, chronic mistakes and so on. That’s all healthy good feedback that they need. Then they need to do their own jobs as management and do some coaching from the power position, not just the peer tutoring/training that’s going on here. Then the end is really they need to be terminated if they can’t get to the place they need to be after being given ample time to get up to speed.

      This isn’t about getting through to the coworker in the end. You can lead someone to water, show them “These are the cups, grab one of those and scoop it like that, then you’ve got a refreshing drink.” but if they keep trying to use their hands and keep skipping the cup, it’s not going to work out well.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Thanks, The Man, Becky Lynch, I am reminding myself of this.

        It’s hard! I want to be a good colleague and give people the best opportunity to succeed (which is a difficulty with my particular industry- there is a lot of haphazard training and getting thrown in the deep end quickly due to lack of staff, time, and resources). It is difficult to avoid feeling like maybe I’m not providing the best direction or support and then it could cost someone else their job.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s hard, it’s because you want to believe that anyone can do it and it’s just about finding out the right recipe to get it to sink into their minds and they go “AH! Simple, look at me go!” Especially when it’s something you don’t personally struggle with, so it’s like “Why don’t you understand, everyone should understand how this process works and how to do it!”.

          In the end you need to be confident in yourself, your training and your communications. So you know you gave them all the right tools to succeed. It’s good that you care so much and you’re willing to shoulder that burden, it makes you a good trainer in my opinion. People who just throw people away easily aren’t doing anyone any good service either.

          It’s the part that stinks about business. It’s hard to develop the ability to know when you have to flip that switch and just give up on someone, when your nature is to believe and help in any way possible.

          In the end, someone struggling is miserable and you’re not doing them or the company any favors by keeping them around.

  81. Where have all the good ones gone?*

    I posted last week about the sudden firing of our Office Manager, and lo and behold, today we have a new one! And not just any new one, someone who is familiar with the company, coming in from another location to lead the office staff. …which is what I said we needed all along – a person who knows the company/culture/processes/products. I swear, sometimes it’s like I’m psychic or something. Or maybe I just have more common sense than some of the exalted members of TPTB. Whatever.

    I’m optimistic this OM may be able to do some good (navigate the bureaucrazy for one…), but I’m annoyed that this is the second time they’ve hired someone for the position before they got rid of the last one. I realize that from a continuity standpoint, it’s better to have less time with the position empty, but it feels disingenuous and, well, rude, to hire someone into a role when the last guy’s still IN that role. Oh well…it’s not technically my problem, since I don’t report to the OM (and haven’t in some years) – but it makes me angry, and it makes me sad, because I can’t recommend my employer to my friends when I watch that kind of thing happening over and over.

    1. animaniactoo*

      It’s not bad karma or business to be hiring for a role where you intend to let someone go in order not to have a gap there when you let someone go.

      The question is: Has the person being fired been given the understanding of how seriously their job is in jeopardy and the opportunity to correct it? If that’s consistently not happening, that would be a problem. Otherwise – from a business standpoint, and I would even argue ethical standpoint, it’s fine for them to accept the substandard work of one person in order not to have a vacancy while they search for someone else.

      1. Where have all the good ones gone?*

        I think that’s really at the heart of my annoyance – we’re very good at blindsiding people about performance issues and subsequent terminations. Everything surrounding these firings suggests to me that the individuals in question didn’t realize they were in danger of losing their jobs; and two days later we’ve got a new person in the door and announced to everyone.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Well yeah, that’s just rude, I agree. Possible to raise to HR/your manager that it looks to you like this and it’s making you somewhat nervous about how it will be handled if there starts to be problems with your work? Mostly, I say that because it may be that there’s more that has gone on behind the scenes that you haven’t been aware of and that might get you filled in – or them a head’s up that they’re making people restless if there isn’t. And that it may not be limited to the people they *feel* should be restless.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s usually easier to let someone continue to struggle and at least get the dailies done while you look for someone else to slide into the role. Just like you don’t expect an employee who’s departing to just drop the hammer on that job before they look for another one.

      However you’re absolutely right, they should fix their issues with not letting people know that their performance is an issue! They should have people on some kind of performance plan and it’s towards that last couple of weeks that there have been no headway that you start looking for a replacement and telling the person that they’re going to be transferred out of the role.

  82. Anonandanon*

    My asshat coworker has started sending emails to customers for tickets that are assigned to him *after* he leaves for the day. He puts a delayed delivery on them and sends it from our team email address (not his) telling the customer to call the team phone number for assistance (because he’s avoiding doing the work). I did not think I could hate him any more than I do now, what a sneaky bastard he is.

    1. RDR2 Ecologist*

      This is worth escalating to your boss as I imagine most people are not happy that there tickets were not addressed quickly plus many of them probably wait until the next business day?

  83. Constance Lloyd*

    I would appreciate any tips for managing my own frustrations with a coworker who truly deserves extra patience and compassion right now. She had a stroke about a year ago and has been back at work for 6 months. She really knows her stuff, but she doesn’t trust herself yet, which means I field near constant interruptions just to tell her, “Yes, you are exactly right.” I’ve done an okay job setting up boundaries- I designate a specific time of to go over her (low stake, not time sensitive) questions. When she ignores this system and calls anyway, I answer if I have the time and tell her when I’ll be able to take a look if I don’t- but I still find myself getting frustrated and a little burnt out. I’m moving across the country in 2 months so I know this won’t be an ongoing issue, but does anyone have any tips for keeping perspective and avoiding my own frustration in the meantime?

    1. RDR2 Ecologist*

      Honestly your situation sounds justifiably frustrating. You are helping your coworker, you’ve laid out how you would like to be contacted (it sounds like, but if you haven’t been explicit with her I would start there) and she is ignoring you and walking all over you because she wants help/reassurance now. That’s just frustrating no matter why the coworker needs help.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        Thank you, I really appreciate this. I think I’ve taken a midwest nice app

        1. Constance Lloyd*

          Whoops, approach* and need to be more firm. It’s been helpful to hear I wouldn’t be e be rude or out of line for doing so.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      You actually haven’t set up boundaries because you’re violating your own boundaries.
      This is a GREAT time to practice assertiveness! Remind her of your system and DON’T answer questions outside that system. Tell her you’ll answer her questions within the system you set up. Keep the tone calm but firm and stick to your boundaries.
      There aren’t any consequences to consider since you’re gone in 2 months anyway!
      Practice, practice! And Best of Luck!

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        You’re right, thank you. It feels like I set boundaries because I didn’t try to have any when she first came back, but at this point being so available is neither helpful nor necessary. She really does know her stuff.

    3. Not Me*

      What you’ve been doing to help a co-worker who needs it is really great of you. If I were in your position I’d make the meetings less frequent and tell her that since she really doesn’t need your help as much as she needs your reassurance let’s try making them fewer and far between. Remind her how well she’s doing and that you trust she can do these tasks on her own. You could always use your upcoming move as a “hey, let’s take the next couple months for you to really see how great you’re doing and how much confidence I have in you! That way when I move if we’re not easily reachable as much as we are now you’ll still have that confidence”.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        Thank you, I think using my impending departure to justify forcing her to be more independent is especially helpful. She’ll have to make do without me no matter what, might as well plan for a more gradual transition. I definitely feel guilty not dropping things to help her, so I have to remind myself that it isn’t rude to stop holding her hand.

        1. Not Me*

          I think it’s not only not rude, but it’s also helpful. At some point you’re enabling here by continuing to be a crutch, although a very well-meaning and well-doing one. Part of the (pseudo-)caretaker role you’ve taken on is setting her up to thrive without you. It’s hard to do in the moment, but keep reminding yourself that she’ll have to make do without you no matter what. Best to do that with you as a safety net for a few months than kicking her out of the nest (so to speak).

  84. Coffee Cup*

    When is the time to tell my boss that I am really depressed and need therapy, and it could be during working hours? I thought of a whole bunch of other possible recurring appointments (like physical therapy), but the reality is that I am depressed, burning out and need to get a handle on it somehow. Part of me says honesty is best policy, part of me isn’t so sure.
    I miss my former work place with its human, social interactions.

    1. A nony cat*

      I flat up told my boss something like this during a regular one-on-one review. Turns out my employer offers a limited number of counseling sessions and my boss got me the details for how the program works. So it worked out well, but I have a boss who is really into psychological support. Might not work well with all bosses.

    2. fposte*

      Even in places where honesty is a workable policy, it’s good to make it as efficient and rewarding as possible. So what do you want from your manager in this meeting? What specific actionable question are you asking? Is this “I need to make some recurring medical appointments and they’ll likely happen during the day–do I need to file intermittent FMLA forms or are we okay with my just leaving at 4 one day a week?” I don’t think there’s any specific need to mention what for, but if you’re specifically asked–which you shouldn’t be but it happens–it’s up to you if you want to mention a therapist or say “I hate to bring medical details into work.”

      In general, I don’t advise just telling a manager you’re depressed unless you already have that kind of relationship–there’s nothing specific for them to do with that information. If there’s a core of “I feel awful and I want them to know,” I’d try to separate that from the therapy need; if possible hold off until you’ve got the therapy started and *then* meet to talk about changes you could propose to help relieve the burnout problem.

    3. Semaj*

      What’s wrong with saying – “Everything’s okay, but I want you to know I have a recurring medical appointment at these times.”? I think that’s the safest bet, because this is a completely normal and valid use of sick time and you deserve to be able to use it. If you haven’t scheduled it yet, maybe offer to try to schedule them first thing in the morning/around the end of the day/close to lunch, whatever is easiest for you to be out considering your coworkers? Not that you have to do that, but it could show some consideration.

      Does your boss normally push back when you ask for sick time or tell them you have a medical appointment? You shouldn’t have to explain what this is for. If you have get resistance and have a helpful HR, consider telling them. Good luck, therapy was an amazing decision for me and I hope it is for you as well.

    4. coffee cup*

      OT sorry but I think I might have to change my username so we don’t get confused!

      Although, oddly enough I too am burning out.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is your personal decision. If you feel okay sharing the reason for the appointment, do it. This is no different than saying “I have PT for my shoulder injury.” Yes there’s a stigma attached to mental illness but being vocal and up front about it, when we want to be, on our terms of course, is what helps dissolve that issue. So please, take care of yourself and do what you think is best for yourself, which includes being honest.

  85. MegaAnon*

    I have found out that a colleague is being fired next week. I’m actually on annual leave so won’t see him again at work. He’s a really nice guy and I feel very sad about it. I feel bad that I know before he does (he wasn’t in today and I was told so I knew what had happened before I came back to the office). It isn’t entirely unexpected, but still, it isn’t pleasant. I’d like to keep in touch with him, but it’s just a bit awkward to be able to do that. Ugh.

      1. MPA*

        I don’t know all the specifics of the situation, but this is a good idea.
        Especially if you can write any kind of recommendation on there as well. It’s hard to be let go from a job and knowing that someone is thinking of you kindly and willing to help can be soothing.

        Depending on your relationship, you can also text after the fact, just to check in.

  86. LS*

    I am applying for jobs and have been with my current company for a while. During this time I have had several job titles due to promotions, changing departments, etc. How would I list the different titles on a job application? For these you only get one line for job titles, unlike a resume that you can customize more. I have been putting Teapot Palace, Designer/Coordinator, 2010-Present, as I want them to know the titles are with the same company when they glance at it. Is this ok or is there a better way?

    1. Buttons*

      I would put each one like it was a different company. They will understand and it is a better way to bring attention to your progression.
      TeaPot Palace, Designer 2014-Present
      TeaPot Palace, Coordinator 2010-2014

  87. KayDay*

    Meetings. Are they ever useful?
    Specifically, the recurring sort–i.e. all-hands meetings, team meetings, department meetings, senior leadership/management meetings, etc.

    I’m really lucky in that my company doesn’t actually have too many meetings. But the few meetings (i.e regular, recurring, team/staff meetings) that we do have are useless. They are basically all about reporting what we either plan to do or did do in the past week/month to the boss. Discussion is limited. There is no agenda, just a round-robin style everyone says what their recent activities have been. On top of this, we send out a weekly sit-rep with what we have done for the past week by email. Since we honestly don’t waste too much time in meetings (a weekly some-staff meeting is barely 30 min long, and we have a 2-3 long senior management meeting, but it is not held frequently), is it even worth trying to fix them?

    Basically, is the added benefit to the company of doing meetings well actually enough to justify the time and effort needed to fix our meetings? Or is it better to scrap them all together?

    I’d love to hear stories about anyone who’s worked somewhere where either they got rid of these sorts of meetings entirely or where you had really good meetings that actually helped you get stuff done better.

    1. ArtK*

      In your situation, I don’t think it’s worth doing anything.

      That said, there are forms of recurring meetings that can be very useful. It all depends on how they are organized. In Scrum project management, there’s a daily Scrum meeting where everybody shares. Typically it’s in the “what I accomplished since last time, what I intend to accomplish and what are my blockers” format, although that’s not required. The point isn’t really status in the sense of telling a manager what’s up, but for transparency within the team. The team is small enough so that everybody cares what the others are doing. The bad meetings are ones where you listen to a litany of things that don’t affect you and you can’t help with.

      Sometimes (far too often) people will have meetings because they think that they should. Nobody complains because they think that they’re the only one who finds the meeting useless. You might want to poll some other attendees to see what they think about them. If enough of you feel that they’re useless, then you can raise the issue.

      Some meeting questions: 1) What is it that we (the company or team) are getting out of this? 2) Are there other ways of accomplishing the same thing? 3) Are these the people necessary to achieve that goal? 3) Are the meetings being run efficiently (i.e. no digressions,etc.)?

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Scrum meetings in my area tend to be exactly ”litany of things that don’t affect me and I can’t help with”. I usually do the ETL or database side and deployments, so mostly back-office stuff. Which I need the finished product for, as I need to exactly know what is where, and not go on hunches. So a normal Scrum is just stating the obvious, but when people start brainstorming the blockages and the meet runs over even before they get to my stuff it gets irritating. Especially as a specialist I am usually working for 2-3 dev teams and my normal work as well, so they basically waste 1/3 of my day instead of giving me the finished product so I can reverse engineer the specs as they never have any documentation that is actually valid to make the deployment requests. I guess thats the other thing that irritates me in Agile.

    2. CatCat*

      Meetings can be useful if there’s a good reason for having one and we all know why we’re there.

      You might enjoy the book “Death by Meeting,” which is all about fixing pointless meetings. It’s written as a sort of parable and seems a little hokey when you’re reading it, but it really gave me a lot to think about.

      Unfortunately, I have not personally had much success in my quest to fix meetings. I am staff level and have made several offers to help on this front, but it doesn’t seem to be a priority higher up.

      1. ArtK*

        As an aside, I am tremendously over management books written as parables. Too often the story isn’t actually compelling and the bad fiction writing overshadows the points the author is trying to make.

        I recall one that I had to read for a class. Everything was “bull.” Literally! The companies were all “herds”, but were thinly veiled surrogates for various aircraft companies, like “the Seattle Herd” (Boeing.) The mentor was the “Old Bull” and the protagonist the “Young Bull.” It was so distracting that it really killed the little bit of good advice that was there.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Meetings without agendas are pretty worthless in my experience.

      The type you’re describing is exactly what I had to deal with on an extensive level at my last position [with senior leadership that were awful at their jobs, go figure!]. Nothing came out of it, just a lot of wasted time. Even if it’s just 30 minutes here and there, why?

      That’s 30 minutes of sit down meeting time. Not the time everyone has to stop what they’re doing, get their stuff gathered up and then go find a seat and then the time that it takes to get back on task! So it’s more than just 30 minutes per person of wasted time in that way.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      I changed a weekly staff meeting from a sit-down-in-the-conference room to a quick stand-up round robin. Usually takes 15 min. or less. Everyone gets caught up on what everyone else is doing. Occasionally we’ll have a discussion about how different people might be able to work together on the issue, or to bring everyone up to date on something that has been moving quickly.

      For some reason when we were sitting at a conference table people felt compelled to make a 10 min. presentation on their work. Which was generally boring, repetitive and unnecessary, and the meeting filled the full hour for which we’d booked the room. The stand-up check in works much better. People don’t feel compelled to say something if they don’t need to.

    5. CM*

      I like meetings, but only the kind where you’re meeting because you have a problem to solve and you need a group of people to discuss it more dynamically than they can over email. I’m also okay with meetings where there’s an emotionally complicated announcement someone needs to make and it’s easier to manage people’s reactions face to face. Or where it’s important for people to see that everyone’s listening to them in order to build trust, etc.

      I don’t like the kinds of meetings you’re describing where people go around in a circle and say updates. And I don’t like meetings where someone just makes an announcement or explains something that could have just as easily been in an email.

      Basically, I think it’s a matter of choosing the communication method that’s best for what you’re trying to achieve, and meetings can be a really good choice, depending what it is.

    6. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Ah, meetings. Yes, they can be devastating for productivity. Though be glad you don’t work in Sweden. There you will have a meeting about the meeting, and have a round robin discussion so everybodys feelings get taken into consideration. And of coruse coffee and cinnamon buns. Of course you would have a meeting to discuss whether its cinnamon buns or danish pastries before that meeting… with coffee.

      Not that I mind cinnamon buns.

      1. KayDay*

        I think you are under-estimating my appreciation of cinnamon buns and coffee. I could tolerate a lot when cinnamon buns and coffee are available.

  88. Brave Little Toaster*

    My first time posting in the Friday open thread! Looking for advice: I have an upcoming job interview for a newly-created position within a 30-ish-person nonprofit. It could be a good fit but I’m honestly a bit wary of going into a job no one has done before. In my experience, there’s a real risk of over-expectations (“the person in this role will accomplish all the things and fix all our problems!”), mission creep, conflicting visions, and generally managers/teammates not knowing how to verbalize what they need.

    Advice on questions I can use to ask (tactfully) about this in the interview? Essentially, how to ask, “How well have you thought this through, and will I be blamed for not being everything to everybody?”

    1. ArtK*

      Alison has a great question to address some of this: “What does success look like in this role?” (She’s used some other wording, but that’s the gist.) Other things: “How quickly do you expect this role to become effective?” “What resources to you think are necessary to be successful and how readily available are they?” That last one is a question that the interviewer may not really have thought through. Nothing worse than being given a new role and then told that what you need can only be obtained through superhuman effort.

    2. Catsaber*

      I would definitely ask them to define success for that role (Alison has many posts about this). Ask them about what they perceive as challenges for the role, and challenges in the company in general. Ask them situational questions, like what you would get asked – how did they handle a difficult client? what are some examples of professional development that has occurred? etc etc. I would ask them things that get them to name situations that have occurred and how they reacted to them. Ask them about positions that are similar. Ask them why they have created this position and how they are currently handling the tasks being given to this role.

    3. CoolInTheShade*

      I completely understand why you’d shy away from it. I’ve generally turned down interview opportunities in the same situation, but that’s because I’m lazy and my job can rarely be done well with a 1-man team.

      ArtK and Catsaber gave good advice. Are you sure yourself that the job can be done by a single person?

  89. FormerGradStudent*

    A little advice needed if anyone has been in this or similar situations. A grad student friend told me that his adviser was away on what he thought was a vacation, only to find out after being cc’d on an email conversation between his adviser and one of our department’s finance people that he was in fact out due to a death in the family. No idea whether this information will be made public to the department as a whole (my guess is maybe to the faculty but not to students) Would it be appropriate for my friend to give a sympathy card in this circumstance? I am leaning towards yes, because this is someone he has worked with on a regular basis for over 5 years and it is not as strict a boss-underling relationship. However, I can totally see the other side of it because it hasn’t been announced to students maybe it is overstepping. Thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      No. Only offer condolences if the person shares with you about the death or it’s otherwise widely known (i.e. obituary in the newspaper). There could be any number of reasons the adviser chose not to share this information personally, from it slipped their mind to a fraught relationship. But I’d wait until it comes through official means.

      1. FormerGradStudent*

        This makes a lot of sense. I think my friend is bound to hear about it eventually from his adviser’s SO who also works in the department, but it does seem like a good idea to wait until something is more official.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Was the adviser the author of the e-mail that was cc’d? If so, definitely yes. If not, probably still yes but it depends on your friend’s take of advisor and what they’d want. It might be easier/better for your friend to simply e-mail something along the lines of “I was sorry to hear of your family member’s passing. I understand that you are, of course, not available right now. Please let me know when you are back.” which covers the bits of acknowledgment, compassion, in a way that is closer to a professional slightly distant standing.

      1. FormerGradStudent*

        Yeah. It’s difficult because the advisor-grad student relationship can be kind of line-blurring. The adviser was not the one who included the student on the CC so yeah, probably best to leave it be. Thanks.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Do you know who died? If it was someone close to the professor, a card might be appropriate. If it was an in-law, and the prof needed the time off to take spouse to the funeral, I wouldn’t send a card. There are many shades of gray here, so it depends on your relationship with the professor, and the prof’s relationship with the deceased.

  90. Neurotic Nancy or something*

    Would it be weird to ask my boss point-blank if she thinks I’m good at my job? Because I don’t think I’m good at my job, and idk how much of that is anxiety.

    In theory we have performance reviews twice a year, and are told 3 things we’re doing well and 3 things to work on. In practice, this will be the the second time in two years that spring reviews have been pushed off and eventually rolled into fall because management is so busy with startup and expansion projects. Plus, the 3-positive/3-negative format doesn’t give me much sense of scale, like are these minor issues and overall I’m doing well, or major problems that would keep me from succeeding at this company? My boss is friendly, but often points out things I haven’t handled well, and doesn’t give much concrete praise. I’ve been working here for two and a half years with only one small raise on my initial review.

    I like this company well enough – the culture is fun, the benefits are good, the location is excellent, the work isn’t hateful – and would like to stay here, but only if there’s a potential for growth and more pay. (I need another ~10k/year to afford my own place, which is my #1 long-term life goal right now.) So, is it unreasonable to ask for a straight-up yes-or-no, scale-of-ten, am I excellent or do I suck?

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      Don’t ask it like that. But I’d ask your boss off to the side what you’re doing well and what areas they want improvement. It’s an informal performance review.

      Don’t rely on the twice-annual performance reviews, but it should be, ideally, an ongoing conversation between you both where you can better understand the boss’s and company’s needs and make your performance match that.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I think that you could approach it more diplomatically with something like “I’ve realized that our review process and the fact that it gets put off like it has this year leaves me with some questions that I’d like to ask about. For instance, the things that you bring up as negatives, can we talk about how serious you think those issues are? Are there other overall issues that you have and those are just the top 3 negatives? Because if so, I’d like to know what some of the others are and see what I can do to resolve them. But also, just, are you generally happy with my work?” and go from there.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Personal experience indicates that your best bet for seeing a $10k salary increase in less than 10 years is to leave (or at least get an offer and hope the company makes a counter which has its own issues).

  91. Amethyst*

    I made it through my first week back at my old job! Only worked 3 days since yesterday’s a holiday & today’s my normal day off per my new schedule. It’s simultaneously fantastic & oh, so peculiar. I’ve never gone back to any of my jobs prior to this, so having the responses I’ve been getting–I feel like a celebrity, seriously, with all the gushing/relief/celebration–& learning new things, it feels like I’ve never left & also was on an 8 month (laid off) sabbatical. Also hearing anger toward TPTB who gave the order to our bosses to pick people to lay off back then. (When told it came down to me & “Jane”, a woman known to sabotage each & every one of her backups who cover while she’s on vacation/out AND who withholds information from you when it’s related to your job/client, the level of fury, vitriol, & righteous indignation that they let me go over her is absolutely unreal. TBH, I feel utterly vindicated & validated with their responses to that, lol.)

    But I’m glad to be back. I’m a little concerned that they’ve put me on a pedestal because I’m not perfect, I have made a few minor mistakes, & I’ll continue making small mistakes while I learn what’s required of me for my new position. I don’t want my fall to be a long one in their eyes.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Good grief! Is Jane still working there? Congratulations on your “new” job. I imagine it is so nice to hear that people are glad you are back.

      1. Amethyst*

        Yes, she is still there. She’s got 11 years to my 3. She’s done this since she started, & her file is inches thick with complaints.

        Thank you! I’m so happy to be back! Despite Jane, this place is my favorite to work at so far. :)

  92. Zephy*

    First open thread in a year (!) with no Hellmouth update. It’s kinda bittersweet.

    Give me your best stories about times when a single person doing or saying something stupid led to the implementation of a new, pointless, time-wasting rule to follow or step to check off. I’ll go first:

    Background – my job is to help college students fill out the FAFSA. If you aren’t familiar, it’s an application for financial aid to pay for college from the US government. There are rules (sometimes arcane and complex) about what information needs to be reported and about whom. The default assumption is that a college student is under 24, unmarried, childless, and lives with and is financially dependent upon both of their legal, biological parents; any deviation from that model makes things more complicated. Grandparents, for instance, don’t count as parents for FAFSA purposes. Except that records of birth, adoption, and legal guardianship are kept at the state level, not federal, so FAFSA doesn’t check to see if the people you report as your “parents” are actually your legal parents.

    We had a girl put her grandparents down on her FAFSA, because she lives with and is financially dependent upon them. Easy mistake to make. Except she insists that someone here told her it was fine. It’s not, we absolutely didn’t say that. What actually, probably, happened was we didn’t bother to ask if the parents she reported were her actual legal parents, because why would we – the app specifies “parents,” everything else checked out (application was accepted, no error flags) and she never piped up and said “those are my grandparents, is that okay?” So, now I have to ask every student if the people in the “parents” section are their actual parents.

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      As a fellow former Financial Aid Officer – I sympathize so much.
      People won’t normally disclose unique situations without some probing, and trying to help students navigate what they may or may not be eligible for depending on all of those different circumstances? Like trying to keep water from leaking out of a strainer haha

      1. Zephy*

        Yeah. My favorite is when it comes out that a student’s parents have been filing their taxes fraudulently for years, because FAFSA throws a fit if you tell it that your parents are married and have been for decades but they each filed a separate return, both as Head of Household. Now I gotta be the one to tell your parents they gotta amend their return and file…you know, correctly.

        1. valentine*

          now I have to ask every student if the people in the “parents” section are their actual parents.
          Defining “parent” should always have been necessary.

          Zephy, do you have to report that couple for the fraud?

    2. dumb dumb*

      I have one!! We had to implement a system in which another person has to watch someone perform a particular task because one, single person forgot to do that task and now we are all punished for it. Yay…

      1. Frustrated Today*

        Sounds a lot like my new job. There’s lots of tedious procedures and processes in place because, in each instance, one person effed up. Now we have a department that has twice as many people as it needs. But I’m working on that one…

    3. kittymommy*

      I work in government, so yeah, I’m familiar with asinine rules because one person forgot something 15 years ago…. :)

      And I too am a tad forlorn over no more Hellmouth stories. I’m super happy that they are out of there, but dang those were some entertaining stories. I also miss the Squirrel Army.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      One of my friends in college had a deadbeat dad, so her mom filled out the FAFSA without his information. Financial Aid called the house, “We can’t process the application without Dad’s name and address, do you have it, he’s responsible for helping with tuition costs and without it your daughter will be ineligble for grants and loans.”

      Her mom snaps back, “Well his name is [name] and if you can get a hold of him for this form, tell him he owes me 18 years of back child support.”

      Funnily enough, the Financial Aid officer figured out how to process the forms after that, and it was not a problem again.

      1. Zephy*

        How long ago was college for your friend? These days FAFSA is set up to better handle circumstances like that, but I could see something like that happening with our students’ personal datasheets that they fill out. Ostensibly they’re supposed to be emergency contacts, but dependent students have to list both their parents, even if they don’t live with them or know who they are or how to contact them. Yep, “Unknown Unknown (000)000-0000” is a very useful emergency contact, very good use of this form and the students’ time (because they usually have to redo it since they left the unknown parent off the first time, like a reasonable person would).

    5. HigherEd on Toast*

      We now have to change our e-mail passwords every 45 days instead of every 90 because someone kept claiming she was getting “hacked” and the administration, in all its majesty, decided that changing the password more frequently would help.

      The co-worker wasn’t getting hacked. She just kept walking away from the computer while logged-in in places like the campus library and then wailing when, you know, someone sent an unauthorized e-mail or something. Even with the more frequent password changes, yep, the “hacking” has continued. All because she can’t fricking remember to log out of the computer.

      1. Zephy*

        Our passwords expire every 60 days. I don’t know how many previous passwords the system remembers, but it’s at least six.

        OldJob started requiring us to sign out upon leaving our workstations, which we would do routinely while meeting with clients. You’d think I was revealing the deep secrets of the ancients when I told people about “Lock” and “Switch User.”

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      Since you know FAFSA rules, I have a question for you. Years ago, my goddaughter filled it out and really struggled with it. She was under 24, but her bio mother hadn’t been part of her life since she was a toddler. The man her mother married and then divorced had legal custody, but had never adopted her, and hadn’t supported her since she’d been removed from his household when she was 12. And yet, they required tax information from both of her ‘parents’ even though she was supporting herself. Did she just misunderstand what was being asked? I’ve always figured it had to be that, and yet she insisted up and down that she had to get tax information from those two people who didn’t support her and hadn’t supported her in years.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        Yes, the FAFSA absolutely required that info no exceptions until just a couple years ago, and now there’s only limited exceptions. I have several friends who have been estranged from their parents for years and couldn’t get student aid until they were 24 or got married because said parents wouldn’t fill out the dang form and they didn’t know their parents’ social security numbers. Heck, I’m close to my parents, but I’ve lived by myself since I was 16 and supported myself since I was 18. I see absolutely no reason why I should have been reporting my parents’ income this whole time.

  93. How do I say this in my cover letter?*

    Hi all, I’m writing a cover letter for a new job. I’m trying to leave my current job which was a lot different than what was advertised. It’s a short stint, about 8 months I’ve been in there. Looking back on Alison’s advice on cover letters, she said “6. If there’s anything a little wonky about your candidacy, address it up front.” Do I address why I’m leaving so soon in my cover letter? If so, how? I know what I would say in an interview if asked, but I don’t know if it would be weird to address it in my cover letter.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      I would only address it if there’s a pattern of short term job stints. Otherwise, there’s no reason to address it in the cover letter.

      In the interview, it’s also an easy answer:
      “My current employment was presented as primarily focused on X and Y, but in reality focuses on Z. I want to work for an organization where my skills in X and Y can be used more fully. Can you tell me more about what an average day looks like with your organization?”

      It continues the conversation, addresses their concern in a way that doesn’t smear your current employer, and the answer makes complete sense.

      But it doesn’t really belong in your cover letter.

      1. How do I say this in my cover letter?*

        Well, this is only my second post-school job, and my last job was about 2 years. So… I don’t know if I have a pattern just yet but I’m hoping not to after this one!

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          Nah this is not pattern-to-be-worried about kinds of time frames. Don’t worry about it.

    3. Buttons*

      Not in your cover letter, they will ask during the interview, so have a positive upbeat answer ready to go.

    4. ..Kat..*

      A cover letter is not about why you are leaving current job. Your cover letter is for telltale why you are a good fit for the new job. Alison has many great posts on cover letters. Good luck with your job search.

  94. VT*

    Has anyone here taken the PMP test? My boss suggested that I take it because I’m having trouble passing a different certification, but no one in my office has a PMP. My application was accepted so I can take the test but I’m not sure what the test is like, the style of the questions etc.

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      I have. It’s highly structured and requires that you understand what PMP expects a project to look like. But they’ll even acknowledge that not every project looks like they say. I passed the test pretty easily first try after taking a 3 day course on it, and the course really helped me understand what the test was looking for. It’s valuable in my former line of work as a certification.

      If it’s not valuable for your line of work though, I would not pursue it. It’s a lot of cost and hassle for something, when your primary focus should probably be the certification you’re struggling with, not another hard one that’s out there.

      Is there a bootcamp or class you can take that’s aimed at helping you pass this other certification? I’d go for that instead of the PMP.

      1. VT*

        Yes there are and I’ve taken them. I still didn’t pass (a couple times).
        The thing is, while my coworkers don’t have it (they have PEs), my boss and I have been seeing job listings I would otherwise be qualified for beginning to list it as a required or preferred qualification. That’s why she suggested it. Plus, my whole focus right now is project management, so it does seem to be a better fit than trying to get me to pass a test on design.
        Were you able to do the course in your local area or was it online? I might try that before I try to sign up for the test.

    2. OtterB*

      My husband took this a few years ago. It was not easy. He had been doing similar work for years and took a prep class and still wasn’t sure he passed (he did). There are books about preparing for the exam that include sample questions.

    3. PHL*

      It’s 200 questions, all multiple choice. Anything in the PBMOK is fair game. In addition to the time you’ll spend studying, consider that you’ll also need to complete a certain number of PDUs every 3 years in order to maintain your cert. It’s not an inexpensive process, so like the poster said above, be sure it will provide value for you.

      More info and sample questions here: https://www.pmi.org/certifications/types/project-management-pmp/exam-prep

      Just FYI, I spent about 2 hours each for for 3 months studying. I completed a PM certificate course at a state college to fulfill the education requirements. I used the Head First PMP book (highly recommend), the PMBOK, and an online quiz tool to study.

    4. Sam Foster*

      Take a Prep Course. They aren’t cheap but will answer all your questions and put you in the right mindset. Your boss should be willing to pay for it if they want you to take the exam. The hardest thing for most people is to answer the exam questions the way the PMP materials expects you to not the way your company does it. Good luck.

  95. Alex*

    I really don’t feel happy about my job search. I’ve been aiming for a clerical job, can’t get anything, then I tried a job application at Chipolte, got rejected.

    I have four and a half years of warehouse worker experience, and I can’t get anything to get back on my feet. Now what?

    1. Laura H.*

      Keep trying!

      Retailers hire seasonal help for Christmas- some of that may also yield to permanent employment. (I’d start looking around Labor Day at the earliest for those).

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      If you’re looking to work retail, could you work at a warehouse club like Costco or BJs? Or a big box store that’s warehouse-style (Home Depot with the forklifts, etc.)

      Costco in particular is known for paying well above minimum wage and having incredible staff retention.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        Temp agencies or even just temp positions on job boards might be a good way to start. Rejection during a job search really sucks, but there is something out there waiting for you!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          And I have to remind everyone who is going through a temp agency, you have to be constantly checking in and pushing them to get you an assignment. When you first sign up, they don’t really know you and theyr’e not quick to assign you anything unless they have a really limited amount of workers available. It took months to get my first temp gig years ago because they were focused on getting their regular temps that had proven themselves into positions first and foremost, so they went ahead of the new candidates that would walk in unless there was a vast skill/experience difference that they really needed for a gig.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you looked for production assistant jobs? Depending on your area of course but that would use warehouse handling skills and most places will train you on the job without even thinking. They just want you to show up, be on time and have a decent attitude and perhaps pass a drug screen.

    5. triplehiccup*

      Job hunting is a numbers game, especially early in working life. I’ve submitted upwards of 40 applications to get a job before. In the meantime, I babysat, tutored, and did temp work from the gigs part of Craiglist (this was just before smartphones became ubiquitous – now I would look on apps like task rabbit too). Substitute teaching is a great option during the school year; you could start that process now as a backup for then. Have you told your friends and family you’re looking? Have you gotten a second opinion on your resume if you’re using one?

    6. Anono-me*

      If you have warehouse experience, have you tried moving companies? If you can’t get on at a company right away, check to see if any of the drivers are hiring on their own. (But please be aware that the hours drop significantly after summer is over. )

    7. Princesa Zelda*

      If you apply to retail and food service through an online app, especially large chains, it can be helpful sometimes to drop by in person and say “Hi, I applied online, I was wondering if I could speak to a manager to get a timeline?” I’ve always had the best luck with this approach. With a lot of these places, job applications go to some central HR database but the store manager might not ever actually be told that anybody is applying. This was super frustrating when I was an assistant manager at Mickey’s, and it’s still frustrating me at Big-Box Chain because my department is understaffed and the buggy application system isn’t helping.

      1. Spool of Lies*

        Seconding the suggestion of food service but specifically mid-low tier chain restaurants like Applebees, Chilis…pretty much anywhere people sit down and get served their food, except Red Lobster and Olive Garden for reason that require another post. And this is truly one of the only industries where old-school gumptiony methods are still somewhat useful/acceptable (although I assume it depends on your area). I got all 3 of my serving jobs (which led to bartending and supervising and making, frankly, more per hour than I do now in a full-time admin job but without the benefits) by walking in with my resume and asking to speak to a manager. FWIW this was about a decade ago in a blue collar city in Canada so adjust accordingly.

        BUT ANYWAY back of house (dishwasher, prep–especially prep because day times and consistent hours, expediter, fryer, etc.) positions can be easy to get with little experience (and you still earn tips from the tip pool so you get a bit extra income) and if you have any customer service proclivities (basic friendliness, i.e., an ability to smile while people are openly rude to you) then it’s pretty easy to get a host job and, if you’re halfway good, get promoted from there to the money positions: server/bartender.

        If you work in a state where servers only make enough to cover taxes and basically rely entirely on their tips, then ignore this entire post and eff the weird rules in those states.

  96. dumb dumb*

    Two things:
    1. The supervisor in another department is asking for people to donate to a gift card to be given to a departing employee in that department who is being let go because they are unreliable and lazy. This makes no sense to me and I feel it reflects poorly on that supervisor.

    2. I needed labels for something at work. The master copy for these labels is missing. I asked for assistance in getting more labels because I was swamped and didn’t have time to print them. The person I asked to make more for me is still on the computer searching the server for the missing master copy. It would have taken them 4 minutes to just make a new master and print from that. Instead they are still looking after 20 minutes. Oh.. now they’re texting the boss who is on vacation to see if they know where the master copy is on the server. In the meantime, I just made labels by hand with some blank stickers and a Sharpie.

    1. MsM*

      1. Does everyone who leaves get a goodbye gift card? If so, I think it would reflect a lot worse on this supervisor to treat this person differently and make it blatant that everyone’s looking forward to seeing them go.

      2. Okay, yeah, a 20 minute search is kind of ridiculous…but if it’s that easy, maybe you should’ve just gone with the Sharpie from the start? Or suggested the alternative to them?

      Anyway, I hope you have a nice relaxing weekend planned. It sounds like you could use one.

  97. CoolInTheShade*

    Question for anyone: how long after you apply for a job would be acceptable to receive a rejection email?

    I’m cleaning up some very old requisitions on which the candidates that weren’t hired weren’t ever disposition (i.e. a rejection code wasn’t put on their record, and they’re still in one of the “being considered” codes). When I use the correct code of Requisition Has Been Filled by Another Candidate, an email automatically gets generated. I have some codes that aren’t quite as accurate that don’t generate an email.

    As mentioned, some of these reqs are pretty old, like three years old. If I declined all the remaining candidates with the correct code, they’re going to get an email telling them they didn’t get the job for which they applied for THREE YEARS AGO.

    What’s an acceptable time frame? I’m thinking 6 months after you applied is fine, but that may be my Corporate Brain in motion. Do you think a separate time frame is needed for retail floor jobs or warehouse jobs (such as cashier, shelf stocker, or truck unloader)?

    Input appreciated

    1. MsM*

      If it’s a job where people can see that the position has been filled on the website, you should do it by the time that happens, assuming you didn’t get to it when the new employee accepted their offer. If it’s something more general, like one of your examples…then yeah, six months sounds okay. Either way, three years is definitely too long.

      1. CoolInTheShade*

        The job gets pulled from the website immediately when it’s filled, so there’s no way for the candidates to know whether it’s been filled or just dropped off for other reasons.

        They can see, though, whether they’re still being considered for the job or if they’ve been rejected (even if they don’t get a rejection email). Which is one of many reasons I’m pushing for this cleanup. It’s a bad candidate experience to just leave them hanging. I’m hoping I can work with the TA team to implement automation to auto-decline candidates instead of hoping the recruiter takes time out of his too-busy day to decline everyone.

        1. Argh!*

          Would you want any of these people to re-apply? If I got a rejection email for a job I’d applied for three years ago, I’d think I’ve dodged a bullet and would have no desire to apply there again.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Six months for most positions. I think it’d be weird to get a rejection email after that point.

    3. BlueWolf*

      Is this for the government? I’m pretty sure I’ve gotten rejection emails for federal jobs like two years later. I thought it was pretty silly, but seems typical of USA Jobs so I didn’t really think anything of it.

  98. Summer Rain*

    I broke my elbow and had surgery Weds — a plate and a couple of screws put in. I’ve just come out of all the surgery fog and am starting to wonder about work and recovery.

    Unfortunately I don’t get any sick leave – it’s all lumped in as one PTO, and I am burning though it. I guess my questions are:
    has anyone had a similar injury and how long til you were back at work?
    should I pursue disability? How does that even work? any tips? Thank you!

    1. fposte*

      Ouch–sorry about that! Disability is either a state-specific plan or a workplace-specific plan; it’s an insurance policy to get you paid while you out. You’d need to check either your state or your workplace to find out the actual policy.

      Disability doesn’t protect your job, though; that’s the job of FMLA, which might be what you’re really asking about. If you’ve worked at your workplace for at least a year and it’s got at least 50 employees within 75 miles, you should be covered by FMLA. That wouldn’t mean you wouldn’t have to use your PTO–an employer is allowed to have you use them concurrently–and FMLA doesn’t get you paid, but it does cover you for absences up to 12 weeks. I’d contact your manager and/or HR ASAP and say “Hey, I’m out with a broken elbow that required surgery, and it’s not clear yet when I’ll be back at work — could I get FMLA forms to submit?” Somebody with your doctor’s office will probably need to complete part of the form and sign it.

    2. Art3mis*

      How long are you expected to be out? Are you in the US? If so, what state? Do you know if you have short term disability through your employer?

      1. Summer Rain*

        thanks, I see I need to do some research on what my company has in place. Yes, in the US but not sure about short term disability at my employer.

        I’m not sure how long I’ll be out at the moment, – I suppose I might be able to push myself to go back in Monday if I have to. I don’t know how much I could do..this one handed typing is very slow! Monday is probably optimistic though. Pretty exhausted and sore.

    3. Bree*

      Does the elbow injury directly prevent you from working, or is it the pain/exhaustion/medication post-surgery that’s the problem?

      I broke my ankle in February, and worked from home for six weeks, calling in to meetings and having regular check-ins with my boss to keep me up-to-date with that was going on in the office. But it’s a desk job, so aside from getting in and around the office, a broken ankle didn’t directly affect the work.

      Any chance you could ask that your duties be modified so you could work around the elbow as you finish your recovery?

      Also, I hope you start to feel better soon!

      1. Bree*

        Also, I’m part of a Facebook Group called “Injury Recovery BFFs” and it’s really nice to just share tips and success stories and support each other during recovery, if that would help you.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Some company / STD / LTD / FMLA policies require you to burn all your PTO/vacay before going to the next level of benefits.

      YMMV

  99. New Normal*

    I’m writing up processes for my job in anticipation of handing it over at some point (plus, after a scary near-miss on the freeway last month it seems wise to have some of this knowledge outside my rather breakable head) and at this point I have new respect for technical writers. It’s HARD!

  100. New!*

    Our office has a new boss starting Monday! I’m nervous and excited and wondering.. should we get her a gift of some sort? My previous boss took me and coworkers out to lunch on my first day, but that doesn’t feel right. Any recommendations?

    1. Rey*

      My office has a “welcome” sign that we just add the person’s name to and hang it on their door for their first day. There are lots of free banner templates that you can find online to get something easy that looks nice.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that you should just make sure to greet them, introduce yourself and make them feel welcomed overall.

      Welcoming lunches or general treats should be provided by their manager or HR.

    3. Angela Czegledi*

      What we do is to bring in pastries of some kind in the new person’s honor. A couple weeks later we usually go out to breakfast together as a team.

      1. WellRed*

        I’d be the awkward new manager who couldn’t eat a pastry and was afraid I’d offended everyone.

  101. NotAMadScientist*

    Might be late in the day but I have a question anyway, is it the new normal to be texting coworkers instead of email?

    We have a partner company that we do a lot with, but they are not employees of my company. A contractor was coming in to do several days in a row in a secure area here and I gave my cell as a call me when you arrive so you can be let in promptly. That was last summer. Since then I’ve had an issue with him texting instead of emailing. It happened again this week where he still texts me questions that should be emailed. Email is better because I can cc the relevant people, I can forward him to my boss, and I have a record of the requests.

    Am I old fashioned in wanting this guy out of my texts? I only check texts periodically at work anyway.

    1. Rey*

      I don’t think that’s old-fashioned, and if you haven’t already told him that he needs to email you, I would tell him that now.

      1. NotAMadScientist*

        I’ve told him repeatedly that he should just email me and that I check email constantly throughout workday. I’ve tried responding to texts from my email (“Hi, just saw your text replying here so can cc [relevant person name]….”). He’s texting at weird hours too, a email stays marked unread will get follow up on and a text I will totally have forgotten about come the next weekday as personal texts will bury it over the weekend.

        1. CatCat*

          But have you told him NOT to text you?

          “Hey, I can’t keep getting work texts on my personal phone. I do not reliably receive text messages. Going forward, don’t text me. Email me at email@address instead. Thanks!” Then block his texts.

        2. Rey*

          Texting at weird hours is a personal pet peeve, and it sounds like he hasn’t taken any other redirects or hints. Are you required to be available to him via text? Is your office paying for your cell phone? If both of those are no, I would take the approach of responding to the next text with a fake error message. Some people may think this is extreme, but I think its okay because he does already have your email address, so you’re not blocking him entirely, just setting a boundary. I wouldn’t recommend this as a first step, but it sounds like this is coming after a long year of frustrations.

        3. Natalie*

          At this point, I think you have to be a little blunter and less helpful, so to speak. If he’s getting his questions answered, or any communication besides “send this to my work email”, then the communication method is working for him.

          If you think it will be hard for you to ignore the texts, then I would block him. You can go ahead and tell him you’re blocking his number, and if he keeps texting you that’s on him.

    2. CoolInTheShade*

      Yeah texting is becoming super norm. I’ve heard my teacher friends talk about how their students just don’t ever check their email and instead rely on other communication methods. I run into this with candidates, too. If we need our candidates to take an action such as acknowledge a document or provide further information, texting is a much more effective method to get their attention than email.

      As an email hawk myself, it was difficult for me to get used to.

      1. CoolInTheShade*

        To echo Rey though, just because something is becoming more normal doesn’t mean people shouldn’t pay attention when you give them your preferred method of communication. Some stuff is understandable to text, but plenty of things still need real live email! It frustrates me that some people still don’t get that.

    3. Arctic*

      I don’t love it but it’s definitely more common.

      But if someone tells you their preferred medium they should stick to that. In your case, email (for very good reasons.)

      A few people I work with prefer text because they aren’t at their computers regularly (they can get their email on their phone but they don’t like that and that’s fine) and I’ve gone along with it. Unless I have something big or something I want to document.

    4. Haven't Been There, Haven't Done That*

      Personally I would stop responding to any of his texts. When he inevitably asks you why you didn’t respond you can say that you’ll only be answering work stuff through email from now on. It might feel a bit rude but remember HE is the one being rude by not honoring your requests.

  102. Elizabethhh*

    I find parts of my job rewarding, but it feels like I spend the majority of my time sitting at a desk completing menial tasks. I sometimes hate that I got myself into a role in an office, when I have experience in more physical work (think recreation/tourism based). I consider spending a few years here and possibly moving to something more advanced in the same field. I worry if I leave, I won’t have access to benefits or adequate pay.
    I am 30, married, have a masters, and own my house.
    Is it a better idea to stay at my office job and be financially secure, or to explore other jobs that take me in the field, possibly risking financial security? Does anyone have an experience to share about leaving a desk job for a more active job?

    2. Sleepy*

      I think this really depends on the specifics of your situation. Some questions I would ask yourself would be:
      – Might you “age out” of the more physically demanding jobs you are interested in? Would you regret not having pursued this work later in life when you might be physically unable to take it on? Once you age out, what kinds of less physically demanding jobs could you transition to?
      – What kinds of additional financial burdens might you face in the next few years? (E.g. caring for kids, aging relatives, kids of relatives)
      – What is the minimum salary you would need to meet your current financial obligations on? Could you make this salary doing work you love? Would it be worth less money to be happier at work?
      – Are there ways you could adapt the job you have to be more pleasant?

  103. Office Fridge*

    On Wednesday, someone spent about 2 hours throwing away 2/3rds of the contents of the fridge. There was no warning, though it was in the afternoon. I’ve been here 9 months, and this has never happened before. I’m kind of shocked there hasn’t been any drama that I know of about it; everyone’s been very positive. One thing that was thrown away expired before I started working here. (I sit by the fridge so I overheard it all.)

    Most of the stuff that wasn’t thrown away was put on a specific shelf to be thrown away next week if not claimed. Maybe there will be teeth-knashing then? I’ve got to say, AAM made me think this would be much more fraught than it ended up being.

    1. CatCat*

      I am very impressed by this outcome and am interested in whether this turns into Fridgegate next week or whether people continue with life like civilized human beings.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      I categorically refused to clean out the fridge when it w as my “turn” because I knew there would be a Fridgegate.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the organization. If someone wanted to complain to us about doing this kind of thing, the response would be “it was in there past it’s due date, you had plenty of time to claim it, dude.”

      They can complain all the want. The complaints go in one ear and right out the other. Don’t use the fridge if you can’t follow standard etiquette of shared space.

      Most people don’t even realize their rotten garbage is gone tbh. They’re not paying attention and forget it’s there more often than not.

    4. Nana*

      When it was time for the Clearing of Science Experiments, someone would put a sign on the fridge on Monday “Everything goes on Friday at 2” And that was that. Literally, opening the fridge door with a trash can right there…

  104. Astrea*

    I still struggle emotionally, and sometimes logistically, with a customer service job where I have no same-job-doing colleagues onsite when I work and am usually almost alone in the whole facility. The problem is *not* currently a silent facility or a paucity of human interactions. This time of year, I have near-incessant customers. The problem is a lack of *colleagues.* There’s no one onsite who I can turn to for assistance when I don’t know what to say/do in an unfamiliar situation or have multiple simultaneous demonds on my attention. No one to talk with for the companionship and moral support of a shared duty. No one to whom I can *give* assistance or moral support. My boss never sees me work, never sees my successes, only my emails of questions and worksite issues that arise. I can’t drive, so if something happens that requires driving offsite, I can’t do it. And this will never change.

    How do other people in this situation handle it?

    2. ContemporaryIssued*

      Is there a person you can call for assistance, either by taking a call to another room while the customer waits in person OR by putting them on hold on the phone while you call a higher up or a colleague for help?

      I was training somebody for a customer service position this week and she was floundered by a lot of situations where the correct course of action is “ask somebody else or research by emailing [another place]”. Sometimes that’s just how it goes.

      Also, if summer is a rush season, shouldn’t your location have another person just for coverage? Most of our offices are not staffed to the gils, but most of them have two people to meet demands (ie if there’s two customers instead of just one, we don’t get a line forming.)

      1. Astrea*

        This institution *should* have two people doing customer service in the busy season, but it doesn’t. My supervisors, a building maintenance person, emergency responders, and others are on call if I don’t know what to do in an urgent situation or something goes wrong in the building, but they’re not always immediately reachable by phone. I look up answers when I can, and email the questions to my colleagues later if I can’t, but every workday brings new customer questions and issues I hadn’t imagined, so the first people to raise them often go away disappointed. (It’s largely informational customer service, the kind I enjoy.) That is indeed how it goes in this field. I just struggle with the feeling of…I dunno, vulnerability. Major limits on what I’m physically able to do alone. And the loneliness from lack of workplace community. A previous job of mine was like this one but on a much larger scale, and I had a large network of colleagues, many of whom worked beside me as we helped each other out and shared in the joys and frustrations of our particular duty. (And sometimes argued or did things that annoyed each other, but were generally tight-knit). I miss that so much.

  105. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

    Warning: On using keywords when you fill out an online job application. USE THE EXACT WORDS.

    I got auto-rejected for a lateral transfer, when they held the application open so I could apply for it. I was shocked. I asked my manager (who supervises both positions) to let me know what happened. I am actually their most qualified candidate and manager had no idea what happened, either.

    Turns out that I used the “buzz speak” (let’s say “grooming” for “washing and combing”). I had copied and pasted in my resume, which “is” well done.

    The HR system actually spit out me as not having the “experience” (5 years, I have 15) in the “washing and combing” because I called it “Grooming”….

    Lesson learned. Dumb down the application to use their EXACT phrases.

  106. Karen Angler*

    I’ve got a question for how the commenters here would handle this situation. I have a manager working for me and she has a new employee she is training. We told the new employee before she was even hired that she would be getting a lot of feedback in the beginning because she would be making a lot of mistakes. It is normal because it is a tough job to learn. She said she was fine with it and that it is necessary or she won’t learn to do the job right. We’ve reminded her again a few times now during the month she has worked for us. She has become confrontational with her manager over the feedback, which is usually something on the order of “You did abc on this task. However, we really need it to be xyz instead. Would you please do xyz in the future? We have some additional information available on xyz as well as all of the steps on how to do xyz listed in the procedures, but please feel free to ask if you have any questions. Don’t worry, you’ll get it- it just takes time.”
    When she confronts her manager she will accuse her of being stressed out or having a bad day. I know how the feedback is given and what is being said when the employee accuses the manager of being in a bad mood because I can hear every word through the wall so I know the tone the manager is using is fine and so is the language. I don’t understand the behavior or why she is assigning emotions to her manager. She barely knows her as she has only been working for us for a month. The manager just responds that she is not stressed or having a bad day but this is not discouraging the behavior. I don’t know what to tell her to do to get it to stop because I have had this same thing happen to me in the past with a different employee (who was later terminated for other issues) and I just tried ignoring it, which made it worse. I think with both cases it is a way for the employee to deflect from the fact that they are making mistakes by blaming it on “the boss is in a bad mood”. We both do our best to be encouraging when giving feedback and letting the employee know mistakes are normal early on. Anyone have any advice on what to say to a subordinate who does this to get them to understand it isn’t very professional to accuse a co-worker or a manager or anyone else of being in a bad mood? It is really annoying to be told how you feel by someone who has no idea and we’d like to have it stop before it becomes too much of a habit and destroys the relationship.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all it’s normal for people to over-exaggerate or straight out lie in an interview and then later when they accept a job. They are looking for work for a reason of course and they know it’s in their best interest to say “oh yeah, that works for me, feedback is great, I totally understand its purpose!”

      Then they get in there and they’re not on their best behaviors, also you’re now dealing with them in a full time chunk of time instead of that “cleaned up and playing nice” stage of job hunting.

      So that’s where the flipped attitude comes into play here! She either lied or maybe she thought she could handle it and didn’t realize that she’s got a bad way of taking feedback.

      I would make sure that you’re tuned in with this manager, let them know [in private of course] that you hear what’s going on and you’re wondering their POV and why they’re not pushing back the excuses and blame shifting. It may be that the manager is trying to be nice, given this is a new person and giving her time to shake it off. Which sadly isn’t how it works in the end. I’ve given a lot more leeway to some people too soon and yikes, it’s an ugly termination in the end, needless to say.

      It’s deflective and actually manipulative behavior to say things like “oh you’re mad, that’s why you’re telling me I’m wrong.” No dude, you’re wrong because you’re wrong, fix it and stop making this about anything to do with me. So this person is showing toxic behaviors that should be closely monitored, especially coupled with mistakes. You don’t want this energy in your department or company long term and it’s nice to cut ties in a probationary period when it’s possible.

      1. Karen Angler*

        Thank you. That is what I am afraid of. I was hoping there would be some magic words to say to get her to cut it out but I think it may just be a difficult personality showing early symptoms. I wish I knew of a way to turn it around since it is so early but I’m at a loss as to how to address it other than “Stop telling your manager she is in a bad mood”, without a way to convey how unprofessional it is.

    2. Pippa*

      She is showing you she is not teachable. Address the combativeness or defensiveness now. Mistakes may be expected early on but so is a teachable attitude, a willingness to engage and improve, to take ownership of progress and to not blame. Address the attitude because that will spoil the environment even if she masters the tasks.

      1. Karen Angler*

        Thank you. It helps to have my thoughts confirmed. Strangely enough, though, she is the most engaged employee we’ve ever hired. She asks questions (good ones) and takes notes. It is just that, apparently, although she admits the mistakes, she seems to have a problem with them being pointed out and in return accuses her manager of being in a bad mood.

  107. Paquita*

    Good afternoon. Just venting a little.
    I had an interview several weeks ago. I saw the job posted on Indeed and applied on a whim. I am not unhappy with my job, more with boss. She is not like some people write in about, just don’t really enjoy working under her. Anyway, it would have been less money and a good bit less PTO/vacation. And I did not get a good feeling about it. The only thing(s) better would be 8 instead of 7:15 start and less stress. (I am NOT a morning person) I never heard back AND saw it reposted so I guess dodged a bullet. The interviewer stated they had to let the person in the position before go because she had to many ‘medical appointments’. No time off OR insurance for the first three months. I know that is not uncommon but really? And you accrue one day off a month. Plus it sounded like they don’t even want to let you used that. At least I didn’t need to use PTO to go, I was off the whole day for an eye doctor appt, just got hubby to drive me. :)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Too much time off… for medical appointments O.O What a trainwreck, they admitted they fired someone for medical reasons. I hope whoever decides to sue them in the future gets everything they’ve got and then some.

  108. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

    Thank you to everyone who chimed in on my post about the intern’s creepy boss. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good update.

    We went to lunch earlier this week and I asked how her internship was going, what she thought of the work she was doing, and then her boss… She confirmed that she wasn’t learning much, but that she liked the things she was working on. She apparently doesn’t mind the amount of talking he does, as her last boss ignored her completely. She feels a bit uncomfortable with the cube exit blocking / manspreading thing, but thinks he is just an awkward guy (a commentor on the previous post totally called that one!).

    I mentioned that I thought the physical blocking thing was concerning / inappropriate, and told her that I was just around the corner and within earshot, so if she needed anything / felt uncomfortable / wanted to talk or escape / wanted support with HR, my door is always open.

    I didn’t feel comfortable not saying anything to HR, so I spoke to our HR person the next day. This was a mistake.

    I laid out my concerns with specific examples of his behavior in GREAT DETAIL. The only reaction I got from her a confused head tilt (like when a puppy hears a strange noise) and silence for more than a minute (she had a similar reaction when a coworker told her that he had cancer and would be taking time off for surgery and radiation / chemo, so I wasn’t completely surprised). She then told me that she was not going to do anything with this information until/unless the intern complained. She doesn’t consider hearing or seeing this behavior as proof of anything questionable. “We’re done here!” and pointing at her door means I got booted out of her office? Delightful.

    I left work a little early so I could throw a tantrum in the privacy of my own home. I worked on, but hadn’t sent an email to HR person and her supervisor documenting our interaction, because I wanted to calm down/think about what I wrote a little more first.

    As I got to work the next morning, the Glazing Manager followed me to my office to talk to me about something “important”… HR told him what I’d said!!! I was in such shock, I couldn’t think straight or else I would have recorded him on my phone (we are in a one party consent state).

    So now, he’s pissed at me, the intern is unhappy that I said something, and I am pissed at our HR person.

    I will be filing a complaint to our corporate HR person today (in writing and over the phone) about Glazing Manager and local HR person’s actions. I am also trying to get a consultation with a lawyer as I have a feeling this is going to get ugly shortly.

    I am so sad – I love the work I am doing, and the people I work with are fantastic for the most part. We moved here so I could take this job and we really love the city we are in, but now I want to put our mortgage pre-approval on hold… I am not confident this is going to go well for me based on what has already happened.

    1. Aphrodite*

      I am so sorry. You really stood up for that intern and it showed how courageous you are. (I think you need to acknowledge that to yourself as it sounds like a nasty beating you are getting.) I am following this closely and hope that things turn out well but at the very least I am grateful you are taking steps to protect yourself. (Putting the approval on hold is an excellent idea.) Just don’t doubt that you did the right thing. You did, and I wish you the very best and will be watching for updates..

    2. WellRed*

      The intern may not realize how far over the line he is, unfortunately. And he is. Take steps to prepare yourself for fallout and put the phrase “fear of retaliation” in your vocab. Your HR may suck, but that’s a real thing.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is awful. You did the right thing speaking up and this HR rep is…bad at her job. I will take the high road for the moment and not unleash the words that are burning to be spewed about her ineptitude.

      I’m glad that you can boot this up to other folks in the organization. A consultation with a lawyer is a good idea. Document everything.

      Now instead of just harassing an intern, this creeper can get canned for how he treated you in return. Excellent life choice, bro.

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      “It makes me uncomfortable when you stare at her and block her in like that. Please stop.” If he really is just an awkward guy, he should want to know so he can change, right? It’s hard to hear, and people often react first in anger, but if he takes it to heart, he has the weekend to work it out, and next week he won’t be mad. If he’s a decent but awkward guy, that is.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Oh, and yeah, your local HR is horrible. I do hope you go up the chain on that too!

    5. Deb Morgan*

      You did the right thing. Please send updates! We want to know that you’re okay.

    6. Karma*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. I have been in a similar situation and had to report my boss for pregnancy discrimination and sexual harassment of an employee who worked for me. It was a very scary and difficult thing to do and I know that the people who report these things are usually not believed and I was sure she and I were going to lose our jobs over it but we felt we had no choice but to do the right thing.
      Things I learned:
      1. HR always tells the accused what was said and who the accuser is. It makes sense, they have to talk to the person about it and it is a bit hard to do without telling them what “it” is. My HR did give me a heads up that they had to tell him so at least I knew it was coming. HR can’t be counted on to keep secrets.
      2. Some people you work with will fear for their own jobs and lie for the accused during the investigation.
      3. A lot of times the accused can’t help themselves- they seem to have to retaliate.
      4. Even if the accused is fired, some people will treat you differently because you reported it and co-workers you were close to before may distance themselves from you.

      In my case, enough people told the truth that HR could find there was a real problem. It also didn’t hurt that the investigator was in a position to observe some of the retaliation personally. The boss suddenly “retired” before the results of the investigation came out. Problem solved but it easily could have gone the other way.

      1. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

        It does make sense that HR would have to tell him what was reported and who complained… I guess I was surprised she did anything after our one sided “conversation”.

    7. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      So, more info from this afternoon:
      1) I have a phone conference with corporate HR to discuss this on Tuesday of next week.
      2) local HR person is disputing my account of our conversation, stating she said she’d handle it (not that she wouldn’t do anything unless the intern filed an official complaint). I guess I should have recorded that conversation with my phone? (Ugh.)
      3) local HR told creeper manager to “confront” me (her words) about the complaint. Ummm, that sounds like she wants to scare me into silence, it came off as retaliatory, and doesn’t make any sense from a public relations or legal sense. Who does this?
      4) unrelated, but our company sends out a physical newsletter once a quarter. I got it in my mail today and Creepy Manager is on the front being… Creepy. Yay. :-|

      1. Quandong*

        I’m so sorry your local HR person is acting this way. UGH. Sending best wishes for your Tuesday phone conference.

        1. valentine*

          Weird reaction from HR, who dislikes the H part of her job and isn’t too keen on the R, either. She’s treating it like a game of telephone. There’s no reason to tell him who reported. She could’ve said someone saw him behaving that way with intern. Doesn’t matter who, unless he thinks he has enemies, in which case he can name names.

          If it’s a pic of him doing the thing, that’s priceless. Attach it to your emails.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Manspreading and blocking a female employee in like this is inappropriate. Has this guy altered his behavior at all?

      Also, I would tell the intern this. And that just because it didn’t bother her doesn’t mean he should get away with his behavior. He needs to stop, and she needs to know he shouldn’t behave like this. And that, as an intern, she is partly there to learn appropriate office behavior, not to define what is and is not okay.

  109. Desk Job Dreams*

    I’d appreciate any help in figuring out how to proceed for my next job!

    So I graduated a few years ago with a Biology degree and started with a research position. But I quit after burning out and afterwards could only get entry-level office temp/limited-contract positions. After thinking about future goals and plans, I decided on going back to school for another degree in Engineering. I start this upcoming fall and plan to work full-time to fund it, since it’s a 100% online program.

    But I’ve been unemployed for the past two months after my last temp job ended and dealing with family health issues. Now I’m worried about what kind of position I should look for, since I’ll want to stay in it for the next 3-4 years in order to get health insurance again and to help pay for the engineering program (there’s no financial aid option for second degree students, other than taking out loans which is not feasible for me right now). I would not plan on sticking around after my program is done and would instead focus on getting an entry-level engineering position to jump into the new field.

    I actually enjoyed my former office jobs so I was thinking of applying to Admin Assistant I positions and hoping that I can do well enough to be boosted to level II for a bigger paycheck. But friends are telling me that my 3 years of work history should allow me to get a “better” job with bigger pay especially with a college degree, but I feel like my history of only being able to get temp positions would make that a bit harder. I’m also not sure what kind of positions I would be qualified for since I didn’t really learn much from the jobs, other than the usual MS Office and document handling. I just know that I would like to avoid staying in a position with a lot of customer care or handling phones, since my anxiety makes me useless.

    1. Grace Less*

      Some larger engineering companies have environmental science departments. Your experience might make you a great fit there, and would give you an inside edge on jobs after graduation.

    2. Fromage*

      Nn old coworker of mine did admin work at an engineering firm that specialized in hydrology. Maybe you can try and find an admin job where you can move up after you receive your degree?

    3. ten-four*

      What kind of engineering degree are you considering? If it’s the coding/programming type of engineering you might consider doing a bootcamp rather than a degree. My husband used to teach at a coding bootcamp, and while it’s not a silver bullet a lot of his students were able to completely change their careers with a 4 month program. My best friend went through and went from making 20k a year to 65k with her first job; she makes $120k now less than 4 years later. I work at a digital agency myself, and most of our engineers don’t have an official engineering degree. It’s never exactly easy to switch fields, but for programming in particular there are shorter routes to getting enough of the basics to get a job that will let you learn as you go.

      Also the thing with degrees and jobs is: degrees matter much less than your network. There are exceptions (medical doctors, for example). But mostly you should choose your degree in large part based on how effectively the school can place you. For your program: what help do they offer in job placement? How is the alumni network? What’s the school’s reputation like? You really don’t want to be in the exact same position in four years!

      Anyway, maybe you’re talking about electrical engineering and that whole pile of advice is useless. I admire what you’re doing – I switched fields a lot in my twenties. It was hard and scary sometimes. I went to grad school to “reboot” my career, and wound up dropping out after a semester when I got the job I wanted the degree to get. It was the right move – my grad school cohort had a terrible time with job placement. All of which is to say: school can reboot your career, but the degree itself isn’t the key thing!

  110. Seeking Second Childhood*

    As a small part of my job I’ve been handling translations to a few non-English languages. We had increasingly slow service from a vendor so tested another on one item. I had problems getting Purchasing to pay them , to the point where I’m cc:ing someone”s manager on every email and it’s still not paid after 6 weeks… this $200 charge has taken more than that in my time I’m sure.
    So, in the process I learned that the PREVIOUS vendor’s invoices haven’t been paid, some of which are over a year old.
    No wonder their service level went down.
    Before Purchasing was moved from my site to another one, my predecessor would walk to Fergus’s desk and get help. They’re now in another country.
    What can I do other than weekly emails and copying managers? How do I escalate it?

    1. WellRed*

      Pick up the phone and call purchasing? In person meeting with your manager or whomever makes the most sense on site? Follow either up with a recap email. Then. Dust off resume. Companies that don’t pay bills are not companies to stick with.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Probably is time for another call…I’ve been dragginh project management into this, which is ludicrous. But they gave the purchasing/sourcing role for my division to the team at a mfg site in another country. Penny wise, pound foolish…they do make us look bad.
        And so help me it feels like they’re not answering my team”s questions unless we have a man on the call. So much wrong here.

  111. Natalia*

    A co-worker of mine recently resigned. He was unhappy due to tension in his department and the actions of a fellow co worker who wrongly accused him and lied about him. The co worker who lies was promoted in our department about a year ago and it really raised eyebrows. I was told to be careful what I say around this person. However, this person is still employed and the co worker who was unhappy and unfairly treated is gone. I feel that this could have been avoided and that our head of department fails to see that the person who lied and wrongly accused him is the problem. Should I say anything? A lot of us feel that this was inevitable and that something should’ve been done to get rid of the tension and dysfunction in the department.
    I’d like to say something, but I feel it isn’t my place and there is probably way more to the story then I know…It’s hard because I have been caught in the middle…

    1. Call me St. Vincent*

      Don’t say anything. It can’t go well for you to say something. There is literally no upside. Either the department head knows this person is a snake and doesn’t care (or likes it) or you’re basically telling him or her they have bad managerial judgement. In neither of these situations does it go well for you. It’s a crappy unjust situation that you can do nothing about unfortunately.

  112. Anon and agog*

    So… I’ve recently been bushwhacked with something I figured was a thing of the distant past – a workplace crush.

    The way my work goes, I work with a lot of people, but few of them on a routine basis. I was recently in a meeting with one of these people (who I’m thankfully unlikely to run into again for another 9 months or so), when some part of my brain just decided to process the whole, “they’re smart, good looking and have an absolutely amazing voice.”

    Isn’t that sort of thing supposed to stop by the time I’m out of me mid-twenties? It’s certainly the first time it’s happened since then.

    1. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      I am in my mid 40s, and I don’t think this ever stops… Unfortunately.

    3. Jane*

      I’m 37 and have a ridiculous workplace crush, with someone I work with every day, and it’s been YEARS and my crush has only increased in intensity.

      1. Anon and agog*

        I seriously would have to come up with some way to deal with this. My interpersonal poker face is … legendarily bad. My position is also one that isn’t – technically – management but is effectively “senior advisor to the C-Suite.”

  113. Bunny*

    Does anyone have an experience on changing your name in a workplace? I’m getting married in 4 weeks and hyphenating with my husband’s name with his proceeding my current last name.

    I am planning on notifying HR but on a lot of things like my email it seems simpler to keep my old email. My ID badge just probably reflect my actual name. Honestly I am fine with people continuing to refer to me professionally and personally by my previous last name, the name change for me is more about making it clear that we are in fact legal spouses in the relatively new world of same-sex marriage.

    1. Karma*

      I’ve done it. Let HR know and if you want your new name on your email, ask IT. My IT group was able to associate my old name with my new name so I would still get my email when people still sent it to the old name. Most employers are used to handling this so you just need to decide what you want and ask for it. It won’t be a big deal for them to accommodate your wishes. Best wishes on your upcoming marriage!

  114. char*

    I was wondering how other people with chronic illnesses/on FMLA deal with taking time off that isn’t related to the health issue.

    I’m on intermittent FMLA due to a chronic health issue that sometimes leads me to unable to work a full day – on average, I have to leave early once or twice a week. So through the FMLA arrangements, I can use my “vacation” time as sick time once I run out of sick time (which is inevitable, since I only get 5 sick days a year). My problem is, this leaves me feeling like I can never take an ACTUAL vacation, since I have to save all my “vacation” time to use when I’m sick. I spend all my PTO on half-days where I force myself to work as much as I can in the morning then come home and conk out from exhaustion in the afternoon. I feel like I can never take longer breaks from work or do anything fun. (I’m pretty sure this weekend is the first four consecutive days off I’ve had since Christmas, and it’s only because the company decided to give everyone July 5th off paid as well.)

    And now I’m out of vacation time too, so I guess I’m going to have to start taking my time off unpaid… which leaves me feeling even less like I can ever take any “fun” time off… or any time off at all, really, even though it’s not good for anyone if I try to force myself to work a full schedule.

    I just… really want real time off to do something nice, instead of having to use all my PTO up on days when I’m just sitting at home feeling like crap. How do I handle this?

    1. KoiFeeder*

      If you can, save up “nice” things you can do at home when you feel like crap. Ice cream and a soaking bath, or storing books to read during low days (if your illness allows you to do that!) or video games, or whatever you can do with minimal effort.

      I’m spoiled with the koi pond, though. Even if I’m barely walking, I can lay on the rocks and watch fish try to eat my fingers.

      1. char*

        Oh, that sounds fantastic! I love koi!

        And I do try to do little nice things, but it’s easy to forget and just spend the bad days just wasting time online doing things I don’t even care about (instead of at least wasting my time on things that I like instead). I’ll try to be more diligent about that, and think of more low-effort fun things that I can do. Thanks!

  115. Anon for this*

    This is an “Is this weird or is it me?” question.

    I applied to a casual-sounding freelance job opportunity with a large-ish company. They responded very quickly and invited me to attend a five-hour “voluntary information session” as part of their “screening process.” Based on their description, the voluntary information session would explain the process and best practices related to the job I applied for.

    My first thought was, “Dammit. They want to sell me a timeshare.” My second thought was, “Weird. I wonder if they’re trying to get around the laws that say you have to pay people for time spent training?” And my third thought was just, “Five hours is a lot to ask from someone when you haven’t even offered them an interview.”

    But maybe I’M the one making it weird. Is this something people have experienced? And did it serve a purpose in the hiring process?

    2. Haven't Been There, Haven't Done That*

      The last time I encountered something like that Amway was involved. That’s a big nopety-nope from me.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Not something I’ve ever heard of from a legit opportunity. Totally sounds like training (or producing work) disguised as interview prep. Five hours is a big chunk of time if it were just covering some common bullet points, and why would you have to attend in person vs. downloading a summary document? Bet you also get asked to do work samples to prove you understand the “processes and best practices” too.

    4. Policy wonk*

      There was an agency in my hometown that would advertise a position for a grant-writer whenever they needed to apply for a grant. They’d have an information/screening session where prospective candidates were given information and asked to sketch out a grant application. They wouldn’t hire anyone, but would have a somd new ideas and a head start on their grant application. (No one ever fell for this twice!)
      If this is not a sales pitch, it’s this kind of skeevy free labor.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t waste your time with these people, they’re awful!

      I mean if you’re freelancing, they are working on a contract basis and standard labor laws don’t apply usually, so they don’t need to pay you for your time for just meeting with them usually. So I don’t think they’re trying to pull anything on that front, they’re however trying to sell you something or convince you that you can “own your own business! just buy these starter kits!”

  116. Aphrodite*

    I WORKED on a Hellmouth, are you around? Are we going to hear how your first (partial) week at the new place went? I really hope it went well for you and while you are still looking around get to work in a more tranquil and sane place.

    1. Kat in VA*

      I am hoping that she’s really busy getting up to speed and coming home and relaxing with blissful countenance, knowing she’s shaken that Butthole Of The Universe™ out of her life forever!

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I’m still hoping she’ll get that other job she was interviewing for (not in property management)!

  117. Rachael*

    I have an elevator situation that I just need to get a poll going on whether I’M the weird one.

    I worked in a city for 10 years and never encountered this situation. I now work in a smaller city in a building where my employer owns all the floors. I was so lost the first couple of weeks because apparently they have an unwritten rule that the first person in the elevator ALWAYS operates the buttons. No matter how many people are in there. For example: I get in the elevator, push my button, and step back. The next person who gets in stands right next to the buttons and turns to me and tells me their floor. I am supposed to hit their button EVEN if other people are closer.

    I just don’t get it. It drives me crazy. People who are just as close to the buttons as I am are asking me to push it. This is also annoying for me if I am not in the elevator first. The person who gets in first stands right in front of the buttons (making it impossible for me to hit my floor) and I have to tell them my floor whether or not I am next to the buttons. This is just really annoying to me, especially first thing in the morning (at 7am) when I am not thinking too clearly. Sometimes it is just faster for me to push it myself! LOL.

    There have been times that I have had full hands of coffee/lunch/papers and still expected to hit someone else’s button after I have fumbled for mine.

    Am I the weird one? I understand hitting the buttons with crowded elevators, but the elevators are never crowded. At most, two to three people at a time.

    Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy do they do this?? LOL

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      You’re not weird. When in first, I’d be really tempted to hit my button and then step to the furthest point away from the buttons as possible. Maybe facing the wall. With my hands full of stuff and wearing earbuds. You don’t need any sound going, but maybe moving your body like you’re bopping to music. And then, don’t make eye contact nor move. See how long they try to tell you to push the button and what they say before they give up and push it themselves. Enjoy the show!

      If you can’t get to the buttons when you’re not first, then telling the operator du jour your floor is fine. Half the battle could still be interesting.

      1. valentine*

        This is totally weird and lacks common sense. It means people have to move behind the first person instead of that person naturally moving back to create room. Also, what if you’re the first to get off? I hate telling people my floor, but sometimes they’re blocking the buttons. When they tell you their floor, make a sweeping motion and say, “Be my guest” or “Feel free.”

        1. Rachael*

          I can’t do that. It’s an unwritten rule. The person will glare at you or they will just repeat their floor number.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t think you’re the weird one here. Expecting the first person in the elevator to operate the buttons no matter how many people are there and who gets on next is very strange. And it’s also rude when you have a bunch of stuff in your hands and it’s still expected. Nope, I think you’re the normal one!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a bizarre setup!

      Usually you only do this if the elevator is full and you can’t reach the pad. It’s like are they all from the time that we had elevator operators? Do you secretly live in a timewarp?!

      Is the elevator always in use? I would totally time myself so I would have to deal with as few humans as possible, it’d drive my anxiety through the roof.

      1. Rachael*

        Part of my anxiety with this whole situation is the fact that it forces me to have necessary conversions every time I use the elevator. EVERY TIME.

    4. Don't Hodor*

      Never be the first in, but if you are the first in, hit the Door Close button immediately.

      1. Rachael*

        Unfortunately, the doors take forever to shut so there is at least a 10 second lag and if you are trying to get in real quick you are thwarted by someone who just came in the building. It’s so annoying.

  118. Ra94*

    I was quite pleased about Toxic Boss giving me Thursday and Friday off, until I realized she meant a) unpaid and b) with me still doing the same amount of work, just squeezed into Mon-Wed. Still, it IS nice to have a proper long weekend, and it was even more blissful to intentionally ignore my boss’s 9 am phone call this morning. I checked in a few hours later, and as expected, she’d just wanted to rant about something non-urgent. Yay to setting boundaries!

    1. Bunny*

      One thing I love about my current job is how much the respect that if you aren’t working you are not working.
      I recently took a well deserve weeklong vacation in a place that I knew to have very poor cell service, I basically told them that for all intents and purposes I would be unreachable for the duration of my vacation short of some sort of crisis and they looked at me like I was crazy for thinking that they would not expect that to be the case.

      I’m honestly still adjusting to how some employees zealously guard their lunch hour, I’m more of a grazer so I typically grab lunch from the cafeteria and pick at it for an hour while I do other stuff, my co-worker typically brings lunch and eats at here desk and she is absolutely not available for anything remotely involving work during that time. Movie chat? Talk about the weekend? Sure! Discussing anything involving work, nope, it’s her break.

      1. Ra94*

        Ah that sounds so blissful and sanity-restoring! Luckily my toxic job has a firm end date, which makes the nonsense tolerable. The first time I took a week off here, I made it clear I wasn’t taking my laptop and wouldn’t be able to do any work at all. My boss somehow heard this as “there is no service where I’m going” and told THAT to everyone, leading to a lot of confused questions about how urban Austin can possibly lack any Wifi…because my boss couldn’t imagine that I wouldn’t want to work on my unpaid leave.

  119. Luby*

    I applied for a job via Indeed a couple weeks ago and haven’t heard anything back from the company. It is quite unusual in my field to not hear something after a few days, and I’m anxious to get some kind of information. The posting was taken down at the end of week 1, then reposted a couple days later. Would it be irritating/unprofessional to send them a direct e-mail inquiring about the status of my application, or should I just let it go and wait to hear back?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Move on. It’s Indeed, if you haven’t heard anything within a reasonable timeframe, assume it’s been filled.

  120. Dr Rat*

    My company is planning a fun, silly, end of summer party for my branch – on 9/11. Yeah. In the U.S.

    It’s not mandatory but it’s definitely noticed if you aren’t at this without a great excuse. I really need to attend.

    I can’t push back; I’m already fighting a small skirmish on another front and have to pick my battles. My manager just had a new level of management inserted between her and the VP less than a week ago, and it’s someone new to the company. Not sure who picked the date. We all work remote so there isn’t even a weird vibe for management to pick up on around the office, and the VPs flying in all live in other states.

    Someone will be taking photos and it will get posted on our company website, so even if no one “invited” to this lost a family member on 9/11, someone seeing the posts on the internal website is going to see them and burst into tears. I feel like I work for the company that did that Twin Towers mattress ad.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? (Biting down on the tooth that is a secret cyanide capsule is not an option. Removed the last time I had dental work.)

    1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      I’m not trying to be harsh but I think one thing to remember is there were September 11 before the attack and there are September 11 after. My former co worker’s birthday is September 11–should she stop celebrating? Plenty of people have picnics on Memorial Day–is that wrong? Not trying to defend your company but in the long run, it is a day which a horrible thing happened but plenty of other horrible things have happened and people don’t stop living. I mean, 7/7 had attacks in London–so, can no company picnic on that day and so on.

    2. Bibliovore*

      I totally get you. To many this is just another day. For me it is a blackout date. I am scheduled off no matter what other people including higher ups schedule. You do not have to be the alert system for insensitivity. Just schedule yourself off. No reason needed.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Awful tragic events happen on just about every day on the calendar. It’s been almost 20 years. We never forget the loss of life and feeling of safety that day but not scheduling an event that day is over the top.

      Those who choose to take time time off and observe in quiet reflection is totally cool. But others of us celebrate life that day because then the terrorists don’t win.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Are you in/close to NY or DC? Do you work in a first-responder field? If so, I understand why you’d expect there to be a number of people who lost loved ones. And if so, yes, I think it’s very tactless to schedule it this way.

      I think for most of the rest of the country, it’s pretty much gone back to being a regular day. I still feel some kind of way when I see the date, but overall I’m glad that we’re moving forward.

      My mom was the youngest by far of her siblings, so her brother was in the Pacific in WWII. I think the date of Pearl Harbor was to her like 9/11 is to some of us. And yet, the rest of the world keeps going, as it should.

    5. LGC*

      I’m wondering how you’re certain that someone is going to be upset over the (admittedly) very unfortunate scheduling.

      At any rate – I wouldn’t fight it. My experience (as Someone Who Grew Up In The NYC Area) has been that…we definitely remember it and it’d be a little more gauche to schedule a fun cookout that day around these parts, but it’s not quite as major as it was 10 or 15 years ago. (And it’s never been an official holiday.) It sounds like you do “have” to go, so limit your time there to the minimum.

    6. Sam Foster*

      It’s just another day for a lot of people. Figure out how to protect yourself by calling or scheduling out.

  121. Fromage*

    I get to receive my vesting at the beginning of August. I also have vacation coming up for a week in mid August. Is it fair to ask potential employers to start after my vacation trip so that I can get both the vesting and vacation from my current job, even if it’s longer than 2 weeks notice?

    1. BRR*

      It will most likely be fine. Many companies recognize that it’s not life or death to fill a position a week or two later.

  122. burned out*

    This is my current situation:

    Found out about a interdepartmental transfer earlier in the year. I knew going into this position that I would have to wait until someone is hired and trained before I can start. I applied and got the job! We’ve had lackluster candidates or if we finally found a good one they’ve turned down open positions available in my department. Found out that those other positions in my department now take precedence, so I’ve been pushed down the totem pole. I have to wait for multiple positions to be hired and trained before being able to start my new position. Some of the other positions have been open for awhile. I didn’t know going in that I was getting bumped to the back of the line. We just got some new hires who will start soon, but I’m feeling frustrated. Training is not quick so I’m looking at 2020 to even start training at my new job. I’m burned out from my current job. I wanted something with a better work life balance and teammate who I don’t have to babysit. Thoughts?

    2. WellRed*

      I think you’ve posted about this situation previously? I think if they are still putting you iff, it’s time to look elsewhere. We’ve seen far too many people here promised raises or promotions that kept being dangled to keep people on.

  123. Danny*

    I was communing home from work a few months ago when I noticed a company I passed was having an employee reunion for its 50th anniversary. However, none of the companies I’ve worked at (small startups to big corporations) has ever done a thing. Are company alumni reunions generally uncommon?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In the U.S.: This is the first I have ever heard of one (and that includes my experience of friends and family who are in their 50’s and 60’s).

    2. Reliquary*

      They happen in certain industries. For example, I have a close relative, now in his 80s, who worked as a butcher for a very large grocery chain for most of his career. This grocery chain has employee reunions every five years (I think they’re anniversary years for the company, but I am not sure), at huge venues in the big city where its headquarters are located.

  124. Need wording help*

    I hope I’m not too late for this thread (not in US, timezones aren’t well-aligned), but I need help with a problem that most people have the opposite of. I need my boss to give me negative feedback.
    My boss is very supportive and positive, and has done a great deal to help me professionally, but it seems no matter how I ask, I can’t get them to give me negative or constructive criticism. In our last regular catch up, I ask “what do you see as my area of weakness or will be my greatest challenge over the next year or so in my role?” which ended up with a vague answer of them being supportive of me trying different roles within the organisation, but would prefer to see me sit tight for the next 6-12 months (I’ve recently changed into this role officially, so I completely agree about sitting tight role-wise, but that doesn’t mean I want my skills and learning to stagnant). I’ve asked a few versions of “anything to work on or improve on”, or “I want to do some more training, any suggestions in areas I should be looking” over the years, but no luck.
    My next plan is to say “I need you to tell me something negative or needing improvement”. Is that too blunt? What other wording could I use? Thanks in advance for any suggestions/advice.

    1. BRR*

      Would “what’s something that I can work on or improve on?” If they say you’re doing great maybe explain that you like having something to work towards.

    2. sum of two normal distributions*

      Have you identified anythings personally that you think you can improve on?

      It might be helpful to prompt your boss vaguely on something. Likewise, you might try phrasing them as “I am thinking of getting some training in X – what do you think this will help me navigate the challenges I might face in this new role or down the line?” TBH, saying “I need you to tell me something negative or needing improvement” is too easy to answer with a “I don’t have anything negative to say about your work and at the moment, I don’t see anything you need improvement on” especially if he isn’t even answering “what do you see as my area of weakness,” which is a much ‘softer’ question to me.

      1. Need wording help*

        I have identified a few things, but I’m not sure if they are actual issues, or if it’s my perfectionist nature making them a problem (and yes, the perfectionism is one that is identified). But I’ll definitely try it, thanks for your help.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Try citing a specific and recent project/task to review with your manager. Something like, “I thought XYZ went well. I think I struggled on ABC and could have gotten 123 done more efficiently. What would you suggest?”

    4. Trixie*

      I have a similar challenge with my current-but-soon-retiring immediate boss. I had similar questions but ultimately I knew boss was very happy with my contributions/performance to date. No real concrete areas for improvement or suggestions. She did offer to contact others I worked with to gain their feedback on the last year which is one approach. The other idea was to identify areas I specifically wanted to further develop or expand on.
      I’ve also considered contacting my previous boss (same organization) and request feedback from her. We never had a formal “exit”interview before I left her team and this is question I also wanted to ask her. I know Old Boss well enough to know she would understand the value of this kind of feedback towards future roles and performance.

  125. Kawaii Sensei*

    I had a really good demo lesson and interview at the school my wife teaches at, and they offered me the job! I am over the moon :)
    My current teaching position is at an international preschool (in Japan), so everything is crazy all the time, endless events, plus I am the 2-year-old class teacher, so there’s a lot of draining non-teaching work that I do. My manager has been so critical of me that I’ve had panic attacks, and I went to the head office to make a complaint about disability discrimination (I have severe ADHD and they can’t give me medication for it here), because she treats me like a nuisance and has never given me any positive feedback, ever. I can count on one hand the conversations we’ve had when she didn’t make me feel like I was stupid and weird just for speaking. To clarify that I’m not an awful teacher, I have been working in Japan for 6 years and have never had more than one negative feedback point per term before this job. And it usually wasn’t stuff like ‘your ADHD makes you forget stuff, which makes you a bad teacher’ and ‘why can’t you remember all this stuff off the top of your head, other people can’ and ‘your lesson plans need to be more detailed, but also shorter’ and the threat of ‘if you can’t improve (without any support) then we won’t be able to keep you on next year’. So then why did I get another year contract and a raise??? She basically can’t find a good reason to fire me, so she’s been bullying me out for the past 9 months. All other preschool locations I’ve subbed for have said I’m a great teacher. So I’m letting her win, because it’s better than continuing to slog away in this Sick System. I prefer working with elementary kids anyway.
    As a plus, I’ll be working one fewer day a week, for almost as much in pay! :D I just have to pick up a Saturday school job, and I’m sorted :) Or talk my way into covering a bit at the junior high part of the school (it’s all three schools in one), since they’re having some staffing issues right now.
    Sigh. I just have to ganbatte (try my best) through July and August (which includes summer school, groan), and then I’m free! I only feel a tiny bit bad about leaving mid-year (Japanese school year is April-March), and it’s mitigated by the fact that the wife’s school really needs me right now ;) So, screw the preschool, basically. I’ve been riding the good news high all week, waiting for this post :D

    1. NatureSu*

      Congratulations!! Here’s to getting out of toxic workplaces, and into roles and supervisors that suit us better.

  126. NatureSu*

    A new member of my team is accusing me of being complicit in institutional racism. My supervisor just left on a 3 month maternity leave. This is not going to go well. Help!

    Background: I am a white woman in her early 30s. I work at a non-profit similar to a nature center, museum, or library. I’m essentially a floor manager, have been for over 3 years. I am the senior person in my role, and there are four other people on the same team. I sincerely hope that I am thoughtful and contribute to making our institution welcoming and accessible to people from all backgrounds. My coworker is Latinx, possibly Native American, and has been with the organization for 2 weeks.

    My new co-worker I have the same role. I have personally given her training and how we go about our daily tasks, managing floor staff and making sure visitors to the institution all have a positive experience.

    New Co-worker has taken it upon herself to go “above and beyond” to make sure that our visitors spaces are pristine. That in itself is a little problematic, a degree of mess is expected since the spaces are used, loved, etc. by our visitors. Our supervisors have never talked to us about how the spaces are too messy. New coworker takes any degree of mess/chaos as an affront to how the organization treats people from her culture. Yes, our Latinx materials get disorganized. Yes, our spaces look a little worse for wear sometimes. Our Euro-centric spaces get messy. It’s universal. (We’ve had other Latinx people in the role, and none of them have taken the care / perceived lack of care visitor spaces this personally.)

    Yesterday, I attempted to talk to my new co-worker several times about leaving some of the spaces be. At some point, I talked over her. This is not a reflection of her skin color, her culture, or anything like that. I have problems talking over everyone and I’m actively working on listening. She confronted me last night and accused me of being complicit and institutional racism because the visitor spaces were not pristine.

    When I tried to apologize, she said that I have white guilt and that this continued mess of visitor spaces is going to be an ongoing problem and an attack on her culture/lived experiences. And essentially let me know that everyday working with me, and working within our stereotypically white non-profit is going to be a fight/argument. She cried and yelled, all the while saying that she was simply stating her piece and not being aggressive/assertive.

    Y’all, I can’t do this everyday. I didn’t sign up for this. I don’t feel comfortable immediately running to my interim supervisor, as it seems a bit like saying “Mooooommm! So-and-so’s bugging me!” I want to take steps to attempt to ameliorate this on my own before asking upper management.

    However, I don’t think that it’s my responsibility to manage teammate’s societal anger issues. I don’t want to be dismissive of her concerns, there are legitimate reasons why Hispanic and Native American people in the US are pissed off. It’s justified. I don’t feel qualified to redirect her social justice energy into a constructive channel. I don’t know how to get her to use her anger fuel constructively. Yes, our organization could be more accessible and diverse. I don’t think that telling experienced staff on the first two weeks of the job that they’re “doing it all wrong” is the right approach.

    I cried for 2 hours last night before I went to bed, and woke up crying this morning. I can’t keep this up. I work with this woman every day. Part of me thinks that I’m just being a fragile white snowflake, and that POC’s deal with micro aggressions every day. Part of me thinks that I’m being bullied.

    How do I personally deal with this? Do I go to my interim supervisor? HALP.

    1. Kathenus*

      Due to the topic, I think having an open conversation with your interim supervisor, and/or possibly HR, might be beneficial. Not with a goal of showing that your new coworker is wrong, but with the goal of really hearing both perspectives in a non-judgmental way to come to a level of understanding (not necessarily agreement) and consensus on how to move forward. Otherwise you’ll have a daily battle, whether low key and passive aggressive such as cleaning/not cleaning the spaces, or more overt like verbal disagreements. Use it as a learning moment for both of you – maybe there is implicit bias you don’t really see from your life experience; maybe she needs to be able to see other perspectives better and not see hers as being the only valid one – I don’t know. But I think a discussion that is framed specifically in as positive a way as possible, facilitated by a third party, might be really helpful.

      1. valentine*

        Find a racism 101 site and look for white women’s tears and bullying. Check out the Twitter #solidarityisforwhitewomen.

        It’s entirely possible it’s racist for you to literally talk over a Latinx/indigenous person about their own (or adjacent) culture.

        Perhaps the lack of care with the Latinx materials is racist (even if, to you, all are equally messy). Doesn’t seem like anyone has sat down and thought about whether colleague has a point, even one you can’t see, and it’s understandable that she’s upset about it. Would it hurt anyone if the rest of you took more care? It’s worth tidying up to see if that helps colleague. (I’m assuming she’s not demanding a book be 3 inches from the wall and perfectly parallel with the wall or such exacting standards.)

        1. NatureSu*

          Thanks for your input. I didn’t know where to start to find resources useful for my specific problem.

          We can be neater, it’ll help all the spaces. I’m a little concerned that it won’t ever be enough, but we’ll deal with that if it comes up.

      2. NatureSu*

        Thanks for your advice. I will definitely check in with my interim supervisor, and for the framework of what the goal of the conversation should be. I think both the co-worker and I have things to learn from this. (We don’t have HR, per say…)

    2. WellRed*

      You HAVE to go to interim supervisor. I cant say whether she has a point, but I disagree with the way your coworker is handling this (yelling and crying and she only just started?). but this is too serious an issue to ignore and needs to be escalated now.

    3. sum of two normal distributions*

      >I have problems talking over everyone and I’m actively working on listening.

      If your coworker is already on the defense and as a POC, she probably sees this as talking over her because she’s a POC. You are stuck in a cycle of miscommunication right now and clearly, you are not the one who should be speaking to her as seen by your second attempt at talking to her. At the end of the day, she can continue to be mad but you need to let your manager know. What solutions has she offered? Would it hurt you all to keep the spaces cleaner?

      >I don’t know how to get her to use her anger fuel constructively.

      This is not your job and honestly, this bit comes off as condescending to a degree. Overall, how you speak about this makes it sound as if you don’t take your coworker’s complaints seriously at all – which is probably why talking with her isn’t working. I would sincerely try to see the issue through her eyes before dismissing the issue. We can’t know from what you told us if there is any merit to her claims but it’s best to assume she isn’t just being sensitive before dismissing her.

      1. NatureSu*

        Thanks. I appreciate the perspective.

        We can work on keeping all spaces neater.

        I’m not going to a supervisor yet. I listened to my coworker, and neatened the spaces more than usual on my next shift.

        Re: condescension – ugh, that again? If anyone has any resources for refocussing condescending tendencies, I could use some. Right now I’m just not talking nearly as much as I would normally, hoping to retrain myself to shut up and listen.

  127. Remote Manager*

    Does anyone have any advise for managing a remote team? I am also interested in any technology that you recommend to keep the team engaged or monitor workflow.

    1. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Well, I usually get assigned minions in an offshore team so I need to be mindful of timezones as well. Most companies have some sort of a messenger set up, I’ve found that extremely useful even though I hate messenger apps otherwise as they distract too much. But they show if someones at their desk or busy or off for the day. Also team meetings using a virtual meetingroom are sometimes better than actual meetings, people seem to be somehow a bit more focused.

    2. Acornia*

      Clear expectations, clear deadlines with realistic time frames, and don’t micromanage. None of those awful monitoring programs that alret you if the mouse doesn’t move or screenshots every X minutes etc.

  128. Decima Dewey*

    We’re getting new staff next week, a week my boss for which my boss has previously requested vacation, so I’m the one who’ll have to orient the new people and hand over branch keys.

    All last week Boss was driving me crazy, at my desk every half hour to tell me how to do things I’ve dozens of time without incident. Also to ask my advice one whether to have a staff meeting the Friday after he gets back “to welcome the new people.” First, my boss loves staff meetings (our former guard maintains he’s called more staff meetings than two previous branch managers combined), sets them from 9 to 10, always starts them late, and includes a lengthy agenda. He’s also very verbose, so the meetings run over the time we’re supposed to open. I’m not comfortably airing workplace issues to the public and have said so.

    We’re getting the new people because they’re problems in the branches they’re leaving. We’re losing the guard who actually did his job and getting a guy who has to be prodded to do the minimum, let alone go above and beyond. The new circulation assistant has worked at my branch previously. Boss says he’s never had a problem with her, but he will. Everyone else who’s worked with her has. She’s proudly intransigent–“I won’t change my behavior for anyone.” Boss is sure that writing her up will make her see the error of her ways. We’re civil service, so someone has to have these people until enough has been documented to get HR to do something.

    When Boss gets back, he and I are going to have to have a talk about communication. He’s told me that he and our head of circulation have decided to put the key to the safe in a secret place and not tell anyone. I objected, but he said it was a decision he and head of circulation had made. So if head of circulation has another family emergency and doesn’t come in, I have no idea where the key to the safe is. I wasn’t aware of another issue until yesterday. One day when Boss was out, head of circulation asked me if she could leave an hour early. I said yes, fine. Come to find out she asked Boss and Boss said she couldn’t. I need to know stuff like this.

    In other system news, the anonymous suggestion box in the staff intraweb has been done away with. We now have an Anonymous Concerns box, which TPTB have said will be solutions oriented. Methinks that solutions like “stop imposing stuff that staff objects to” or “quit treating staff like crud” will be regarded as nonresponsive.

  129. Staxman*

    I’d like to write about an experience I had in 1981. Of course I’ve moved on to other jobs and, ultimately, a different line of work. Given that this was years ago, I’m commenting, not seeking advice. I think my experience illustrates a point about hiring. Long story short, I worked briefly for a company that had two major expectations that weren’t intuitive to me and weren’t spelled out when I was hired.

    In 1980 I was working as a typesetter, living in City A, and wanting to move to City B. I spent a week in City B to get the lay of the land. I took resumes around to several type shops, including Teapot Type, the top advertising type shop in the city. The economy was in good shape at the time, and Jeff, the general manager, said they’d hire me if and when I moved.

    A year later I began laying plans to move. I touched base with Jeff, who said the offer was still good. I arrived in City B, Jeff asked me a few questions about my capabilities, and I started on graveyard shift, working under Mark, the shift manager, with whom I developed a good rapport. At this time I had several years of typesetting experience, including some (but not primarily) advertising type. I had been completely honest about my qualifications. I was aware that this was the big leagues, but I felt up to the challenge.

    I did well on graveyard shift. After a few weeks I was moved to day shift, where there was much more pressure, and I began to crack and make mistakes. I probably wouldn’t have made it at Teapot Type for this reason alone, but a couple of additional issues came to light.

    In typesetting there’s a process called markup whereby you specify how a given piece of type is to be set: “11-point Times Roman on 12-point line spacing, 1-pica paragraph indents, 16-pica line length, flush left ragged right.”

    One day Jeff brought me a type job to set—some kind of newsletter. He gave me a sample of a previous issue and said, “Set the new type in the format of the old type.” Since I had the sample, there was no markup as such.

    The publication included several headlines, in boldface and bigger than the body copy. For the sake of discussion, assume that one of the existing headlines was ”TRUMP SAYS NO COLLUSION” and one of the headlines in the new (typewritten) copy was “Pelosi Tamps Down Impeachment Talk.” My interpretation of “set the new in the format of the old” was that I should match point size, line spacing, line length, and justification. Since the new headlines were upper and lower case, that was how I set them. In my view, all caps vs. upper/lower was part of the copy, not part of the format. There’s a way to indicate that type should be all caps even if the typewritten copy is upper/lower, but that hadn’t been done in this case.

    Jeff returned a while later in a foul mood, said the job was a mess, and gave it to another typesetter to fix, with no explanation to me of what was wrong. The other typesetter said I had actually been very accurate, except that the headlines were supposed to be all caps.

    That evening I called Mark at work and told him what had happened. He said, “Markup is a weak area for us because the people who are good at it are needed more urgently to do other things.” I explained my thinking on caps vs. upper/lower, and he said, “If you had more experience with advertising type, you would have known that the headlines were supposed to be all caps.” If I had been having this conversation with Jeff, I would have said, “But you knew I was inexperienced with advertising type when you hired me.”

    What was really annoying here was that I had assumed (reasonably, in my view) that the top type shop in town would have the best markup around. Teapot Type’s expectations on this point were not only unintuitive, but counterintuitive. I was being penalized for their dysfunction.

    A few days later Jeff fired me. In fairness, he was diplomatic. He said, “You are not the first person we’ve had this experience with, and we’re not saying you’re a poor typesetter. We need people who can do it perfectly the first time.” I had figured Teapot Type would expect a high degree of accuracy, but perfection?

    There’s no good time to lose one’s job, but this came at an especially bad time for me. If I had known that I would be expected to work from bad markup and be perfect, I would never have taken the job. I would also have thought that it would be in Teapot Type’s interest not to make a bad hire.

    I think the moral is: Spell out the job requirements to prospective hires.

  130. Ella*

    First time commenter looking for advice! I’m helping my mom make a resume. She’s worked on and off over the years during raising my siblings and me, and I’m not sure the best way to explain her employment gaps. She recently relocated and is applying for a job in her new city, and she’s really qualified, even though her best, extremely relevant position (which she did hold for ten years) was back in the 90s.

    I thought I’d include a profile at the top saying something like “Recently relocated to ___ after raising three children and gaining 20+ years of experience in fast-paced customer service and people-oriented positions” or something like that? Or just not mention family at all?

    Any advice appreciated! Thanks :)

    1. valentine*

      Don’t mention family. Even if her most recent relevant experience was closer to 10 years ago, that’s not enough. A lot’s changed. If you use a five-year cutoff, is the page sparse?

      Search this site for returning to work after children and CEO Mom. There was a mention of someone who put her kids’ names and ages on her résumé. It should include good advice and lead you to other relevant letters.

      1. Ella*

        thank you! there’s two recent jobs within the last ten years (one part time, on and off from 2011-2018, and another part time holiday season 2016-2017) so without her pre-being a mom job it is a sparse page. there’s no requirement for a cover letter or other additional documentation required for the job she’s applying for, so I was hoping to show easily without one that the gap was for a reason

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s fine to go back further than 10 years if it would otherwise be sparse but definitely do not mention family. People will figure that’s the likely reason for the gap, and they’ll ask her in the interview — but it shouldn’t be on the resume. It could possibly be a brief mention in the cover letter (which she can send even if they don’t request one), framed as “I’m returning to full-time employment after time out to raise kids.”

  131. Not A Happy Camper*

    I’ve been in my position for a little over a year and early on it didn’t feel like a fit. This role is a promotion for me, so while I have 30 years experience there’s a learning curve. My executive can be difficult to work for. There are times he can be rude, disrespectful and condescending. I’ve been in tears a few times and questioning my own work. In recently speaking to him about things, he says that wasn’t his intention and to not take it personal.

    But my question is how do you not take it that way? He’s done it in front of others and talks to me like I am stupid (do you understand what I am saying?). There’s another Executive who ran his assistant out on stress leave because of how he treated her. Because they’re cutting back, I may get stuck with him too. I started looking for other jobs with other companies a couple months ago. I don’t want to withdraw my application from those jobs because we’ve talked. He is who he is and it won’t change but I have to consider if this is an environment I can work in. He keeps telling me he picked me out of several candidates, but I know there were some who declined because they didn’t want to work for him.

    Not sure what to do and looking for advice.

    1. WellRed*

      You don’t need advice, you need encouragement. Find another job. Even if you weren’t taking it personally, that doesn’t make the behavior OK.

      2. Blue Horizon*

        Agreed. You have called him out on it and he’s signaled that he intends to continue doing it and that you are at fault for interpreting it the way you did – even though others present likely interpreted it the same way, and he has no plans to correct that impression. Keep your applications open and don’t let this non-apology convince you otherwise.

  132. Arc*

    So I have a question for the collected wisdom here. The other day I decided to apply for some positions on an online recruiter. That was on the 4th. Yesterday several of the jobs I applied for were contacting me to set up interviews. That seems unusually fast to me. Am I wrong thinking that these are probably scams?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Eh? It’s hard to say. But do your research on them. I would never go on an interview without knowing the company first, and some bad recruiters will try to keep this info from you.

  133. Rexish*

    I have a job interview next week. In the application they asked for salary request and you were forced to put down numbers. I did some research and put quite a generous range. Now I’ve done more research and I discovered that my higher range is probably more like the midrange. And my low range is definitely low. Any language suggestions to indicate say that now that I know more about the job I feel like the salary range should be x-x?

    I have always worked in an industry where therè is set salary so this is all new. The title is also quite common that can mean anything so all online resources give a huge range $18k-70k so it has been a bit of guess work.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think the “Now that I know more about the job I feel like the salary range should be x-x?”
      But before you get to that, I would ask them what their range is for the position. In other words, you were forced to punch in numbers, now it’s their turn to reveal their numbers.

  134. acctnt MOVING ON*

    I hope people are still reading these – I need some advice but can’t wait till Friday!

    I got a new job and long story short am leaving for a lot of different reasons but my manager has a lot to do with why I am leaving. Today she came into my cube and asked me to leave contact information “in case they need me after hours for any questions” when I am gone. They all have my cell phone number because of other work reasons but is this normal to ask for personal email in case something comes up after I leave? I’ve tried to train the person who will be filling my position, but I always thought it was the company’s problem if something comes up after an employee leaves?

    Any advice? My last day is Friday so I’m not sure if I should “forget” to send my personal email, or if this will mean that instead of emailing me problems they will be constantly hounding me via phone.

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