my coworker took a video call from the bathroom, horrible exec is the boss’s best friend, and more

by Alison Green on July 16, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker took a video call from the bathroom

I was on a call with a vendor recently with about three people from each organization. Most people had their cameras off, and after the meeting topics were covered, I began to ask some follow-up questions of the other account manager, who hadn’t been needed on the call until then.

I said his name to get his attention and started talking about future things I thought we should be planning. I noticed him turn on his camera and I commented that it was dark where he was. As I kept talking, it became clear that this person was sitting in a dark bathroom with his phone on the floor in front of him. I froze briefly but somehow managed to keep talking as he pulled up his pants, flushed the toilet, and carried his phone down the hall back to his desk.

Normally, when someone makes an embarrassing mistake, the polite thing to do is to pretend you don’t notice and move on. At some point he turned his video off, so he must have realized he had inadvertently turned it on. No one else commented. But here’s the thing — that meeting was recorded. The recording is on their system. Speaking up could save this person embarrassment or worse if one of his colleagues noticed what was happening. Should I risk making it worse by bringing it up? Leave it alone? Should I have spoken up while it was happening?

Is this a recording that anyone is likely to watch? Is it more “we just record most meetings by default but no one ever goes back and watches them” or more “a VIP wasn’t able to attend and asked us to record it and will definitely watch it”?

If it’s the former, I’d just leave it alone. The video will sit on a server for a while, and then will meet whatever lonely death greets all the other unwatched videos of corporate meetings. If it’s the latter … well, I still don’t know that you need to bother. If you’re close to the coworker, maybe. If you manage him, definitely. But otherwise, meh. (To be clear, if you were concerned this was intentional exhibitionism from your coworker, my advice would be different, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case.)

But if anything similar ever happens again, ideally it’s best to speak up in the moment and say, “Hey, Karl, your camera is on — please turn it off.”

Related:
I flashed my entire team during a video call

2. Our horrible exec is the boss’s best friend — and I’m HR

When I took my job as HR director in August 2023, the leadership team seems super excited to have me join the team, but since then things have changed. The COO is the worst leader I have ever worked with and, to make matters worse, she’s the CEO’s best friend. I complained about issues with the COO to the CEO, and her resolution was to move me to report to the CFO but not give the COO any reason for making this change.

The COO isn’t stupid and I’m sure she knows I complained. She has started ignoring me and only speaks to me in situations where it’s 100% needed. She asked that I cc my supervisor on all emails I send to her, so I did this and now she circumvents me with the response and goes to my boss, who either replies to the email or talks to me. The COO is so non-responsive to everyone though, so I can look past this. She also feels she doesn’t need to be held to the same standard as other managers and directors and doesn’t meet deadlines. For example, performance reviews were due May 31. She still has not turned in any evaluations. She went to my boss and got him to push the deadline back to July, which isn’t fair to the other supervisors who completed their reviews on time or the employees who are left waiting.

Can you give me any advice on how to make things a little better and easier here? I’m starting to look for other opportunities because I feel like this will never get better. Can you provide me any kind of hope or is it useless?

It is useless. The COO is the CEO’s best friend. The situation isn’t likely to change. Your CEO has made it clear that her best friend is allowed to run roughshod over everyone else and won’t be held accountable. Meanwhile, HR can only be as good as the management above you lets you be — and you’re going to be both hamstrung by and associated with the incompetent management around you (and in many cases required to enable it too).

You could certainly try talking to the CEO again, or your own manager, but at best you’re likely to see minor changes around the edges only, not the kind of fundamental shift that’s needed. You’ve got to either accept the situation is likely to stay more or less the same, or start looking to get out.

3. Should I send an audio file when requesting an informational interview?

A friend suggested that the hot new thing is to provide an audio file with a letter to request an informational interview. The audio file (MP3) can be sent alongside the letter (PDF) or embedded in the PDF. The audio file would feature my voice and would describe the request letter with headshot. Then my voice would read the text of the letter.

Have you heard of this technique to book informational interviews? Are audio files trending or is this a bad idea?

This is not a thing. I don’t doubt that some random person out there is trying this out (because you can find random people trying out all sorts of weird stuff), but I can tell you that 99.9% of people who receive these requests won’t take the time listen to an audio file, versus just reading a letter that they can quickly skim. And it’ll look odd that you expected they’d want to. (Also, if you were going to include it — which you shouldn’t — why would the recording just be you reading the letter? For most recipients, that would move it from seeming very odd and out-of-touch to an even larger strike against your judgment.

(Also, definitely do not include a headshot.)

4. Should my company reimburse me when I tip during business trips?

I have a question about getting reimbursed for tips associated with travel costs that are otherwise getting reimbursed. I’ll be going to a conference next month as a presenter, and when I was communicating with an organizer about logistics, she let me know that I should Uber/Lyft from the airport to the hotel, and that I would be reimbursed for the trip, but “not including tip.”

I’m really unhappy about that policy, and I’m wondering if there’s any way I can push back on it? I’m also concerned about whether or not this no tip policy extends to any meals I get reimbursed during this conference. But so far I’ve been struggling to find a way to frame it that doesn’t come off as judgmental or holier-than-thou.

You absolutely should get reimbursed for reasonable tips. They’re part of the cost of business travel, and you shouldn’t be paying for business expenses yourself.

It’s in no way holier-than-thou to point that out! Talk to whoever has authority here and say, “Tipping is an expected cost of some services when traveling. I don’t think employees should have to pay out of pocket to cover those costs when we’re travel for work, so I’d like to ensure that reasonable tips can be included in my expense reimbursements.” (Also, before you have this conversation, check any written policies your organization has on expenses; it’s possible the organizer is just going rogue here.)

5. How to tell a previous applicant not to apply again

In the spring, I interviewed a woman for our summer internship. Based on her answers and attitude in the interview, I did not hire her. However, she keeps emailing to ask about fall Internships. How do I gently let her know that I am not interested in hiring her at all?

“I appreciate you taking the to meet with me earlier this year. I don’t think the fit is right for our internship program, but wish you the best of luck in your search.” It’s kinder to just tell her than to let her keep harboring hopes that she’ll be accepted this time.

If there’s some relatively easy way to explain your reason (“we look for applicants with a stronger track record of X”), you can do that but you don’t have to. You also don’t need to explain all your reasons; if one reason is skill based and the other two are attitude-based, just explain the easier first one.

Alternately, you can just point her to your fall internship application process, let her apply, and then decline her application — but with someone who’s emailing repeatedly, I’d rather just tell them.

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{ 343 comments }

{ 343 comments… read them below }

  1. nnn*

    I wonder what value the audio file is meant to add? If the recipient would prefer to listen rather than read, they’d use a screenreader or any of the built-in read-aloud functions.

    And if the recipient is curious what your voice sounds like, they can grant you the informational interview and find out!

    (I also question sending the informational interview request as a PDF rather than just written like a normal email, but perhaps that’s normal in some fields?)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yeah, the PDF is weird too! For a cover letter, fine, but asking for an informational interview? Just send a normal email. (Also, the audio file and headshot would be weird for almost any request I can think of, but they’re especially odd for an informational interview, of all things.)

      1. Miette*

        I imagine attaching an audio file to this is also likely to get the email flagged by the firm’s security software which might mean the message won’t even be delivered.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          If they have decent security, definitely flagged. If it does get through, no one will open an audiio file from a random person.

          It’s an informational interview, getting creative is just a way to get ignored and if they remember when you apply for an actual job, might even be a strike against you.

          Employers have said over and over again they want simple clean resumes that convey information clearly. Believe them. The same is probably true for informational interview requests, a simple request with some background information.

          1. Cmdrshprd*

            I have heard from an expert in the field who go on many many information interviews that the hot new trend is to request an informational interview via a singing telegram quartet that is delivered in a reindeer sleigh to the person’s office.

            Trust me this person go on a lot of information interviews, they have yet to be hired anywhere, but that is the reason I know their information has to be good because they keep doing so many informational interviews…..

        2. SpaceySteph*

          This was my very first thought. If I saw the file, I wouldn’t open it because it might be malware, and that’s if our email filter didn’t catch it first. Honestly same with the PDF itself. Just put it in the email body.

        3. Sneaky Squirrel*

          If not the firm’s security software, then the recruiter should be skeptical of a random audio file in an application. I would think it almost counterintuitive because if I see a random audio file, I’m not opening the rest of the documents either in case there is malware.

        4. Lana Kane*

          If it made its way to me, I would assume it could be a virus and flag it for IT for review.

        5. fhqwhgads*

          Yeah, the more random crap they’re attaching the more likely it is to never reach the recipient at all.

        6. Marthooh*

          Hot take: the person who advised attaching an audio file is trying to sabotage OP’s job search.

          (Strange kind of sabotage but I’m struggling to understand why anyone would suggest this!)

    2. Maz*

      If the recipient doesn’t have a private office and doesn’t work at a job where they need headsets, then there’s a large chance that listening to the audio will disturb everyone around them, regardless of whether it’s an open plan office or they share an office with only one or two other people. The latter would probably make it even more of a nuisance.

    3. Bilateralrope*

      The obvious thing it adds is revealing the applicants accent immediately.

      Another reason why it is a bad idea.

      1. GammaGirl1908*

        I did assume the LW was not in the US, largely because of the bit about the headshot.

        Headshots are common in non-US-based business situations and resumes, but VERY uncommon and considered a downright faux pas in the US. There are a very few and very specific exceptions like certain performing arts or modeling, but in general, it is not a thing to include a headshot in the US.

        1. londonedit*

          Just to say that while I think there are a few countries in Europe where headshots are expected on a CV, it’s very much not the done thing in the UK either.

          1. Rebecca*

            Very much still expected in France. The new trend for resumes makes them look almost like school projects, I hate them. Technically, including a photo is not legally required and it’s against labour laws to refuse to hire or interview on that basis, but it’s still so common that there would be no way to enforce it – there are enough candidates who did give a headshot that they’d just say they chose from the rest of the applicant pool. It’s an annoyance for me, but a huge problem for my husband who is Arabic, and he has experimented with sending in the same resume with a modified name/picture – with the predictable results.

            1. Another Kristin*

              Do they still ask for handwriting samples in France? I know doing graphology was a big thing in hiring for a while over there (personality analysis based on handwriting, for those who’ve never heard of it).

        2. Helena Handbasket*

          I moved from the US to the Netherlands and, as such, had to create a CV with a headshot. It feels so incredibly odd but is unfortunately the norm here.

        3. ZootSuit*

          You have to include a headshot in Germany as well, _shakes head_. We talked about getting a job in a language class, and the class was 20% people who were like “yes, of course you include a headshot, how else will they know what you look like”, and 80% full on horror, “how is this not illegal”.

          They also don’t collect any race/immigration status based data except for “migration background”, ostensibly to prevent racism. Migration background defined as “someone in the last couple generations immigrated here”.

          1. amoeba*

            Yup, in Germany/Switzerland, do include a headshot with your CV, at least for national/smallish companies! With the big international ones, omitting it is fine, but otherwise it might definitely hurt your chances.

        4. I should really pick a name*

          Yet somehow they’re an accepted norm on LinkedIn.

          It’s interesting how rules seem to change with the context.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I wrote an article about this for the Guardian years ago– we have tons of good practice around EDI and how we make first-level hiring decisions without reference to protected characteristics, including things like using blind CVs and applications where you can’t see a candidate’s name. Then you go to LinkedIn and new graduates in particularly have to decide whether to share things like Chair of the Islamic Society or the LGBTQ+ society, without any ability to research or screen for a particular organisation and decide whether the benefit of leadership experience will outweigh the cost of outing themselves as a member of a minoritised group. Super tough! It’s at least 12 years since I wrote it and we’ve no better answer now.

            2. Media Monkey*

              in my previous role, we trialled using blind CVs for recruitment. 90% of the time you can tell without a name or identifying details their gender and a good bit about them that would allow you to discriminate (we weren’t). attneding xx School for Girls, volunteered at X mission to Lourdes, member of the x university jewish society and so on. it just wasn’t worth the extra effort it took. our HR person did look at removing all details like that from CVs but they all started to look the same, esepcially for entry level roles where there’s very little relelvant work experience to consider.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                Yeah, that’s similar to what Amazon learned when it tried to create an AI resume screener for its tech roles (note: machine learning, *not* ChatGPT). It trained the AI on past accepted/rejected resumes but didn’t tell it gender data, so it couldn’t discriminate against women, right?

                They had to scrap it when they discovered that it was more likely to reject anyone who had the word “women” on their resume (e.g. women’s volleyball, women’s studies, etc). Bias finds a way!

                1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                  It can be even subtler – including zip code in any sort of ML model is risky because of the correlation with race. Obviously it’s not 100% but it’s enough to show up. This is why it’s so important for models used for anything important to have understandable features (not neural nets) so someone can say “wait, why is this model rejecting everyone who attended Howard”?

          2. Great Frogs of Literature*

            On LinkedIn, at least, it provides some confirmation that the profile you’re looking at is the person you’re trying to find. I’ll 100% admit that it’s problematic in other ways, but I’m often trying to find a person with a common-ish name who I don’t know super well, or a partial (or changed) name of a person I know or used to know, and the photo can help to weed out people it’s definitely not/confirm that this is the right one.

          3. RagingADHD*

            Of course there are different expectations in different contexts. That’s true in every aspect of human society. Do you wear a business suit to go hiking, or act the same at a work meeting as at a hockey game?

            LinkedIn is social media, not an actual employer. It’s useful to find job listings and make personal networking connections, but there are plenty of ways to apply for jobs without it. I certainly wouldn’t recommend using Linkedin easy-apply unless you enjoy throwing your resume into a black hole.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I think the issue @bamcheeks is raising is that a lot of people submit resumes that have information that might bias the employer against them removed where possible (no headshot, no mention of membership in LGBTQIA, religious or racial minority groups), and then HR will immediately look them up on LinkedIn and see all that redacted information. LinkedIn is, by design, far less likely to be locked down as private or difficult to associate with the resume than other social media accounts.

              I think that EDI efforts are still served by leaving the information off the resume, since bias hurts candidates the most at the earliest screening stages; just keeping that potentially-prejudicial information out of the screeners’ hands until after the first interview can do a lot to level the playing field.

                1. Nina*

                  Some people who don’t have a whole lot of other things to put on there yet might put ‘president of university LGBTQ+ society’ or ‘volunteering at local LGBTQ+ resource centre’ on their LinkedIn, which, while not definitive, is a pretty strong tell.

          4. Lydia*

            I did not include a head shot on my LinkedIn when I created it years ago because of how it 100% will open the door to discrimination. I do have a picture, but it’s not my face.

          5. Salty Caramel*

            I had someone here in the comments tell me he’d never hire anyone who didn’t have a picture on LinkedIn because it means “they must be hiding something.”

            It means I want a potential employer to look at my experience and qualifications, not my race, age, or gender.

        5. Bast*

          From some resumes I received in the last few years, I began to wonder if this was some new resume trend insisted upon by some well meaning but clueless guidance counselor/career center employee at local colleges, as I started receiving quite a few resumes with pictures on them. I am based in the US as well, and the trend seemed to be solely from those under 25, so, likely recent grads. The first one or two I thought strange, and after that it became, “Ah, the career center strikes again!” Those resumes were also more likely to stand out in other ways too — fancy pink paper, odd fonts and font colors, etc. I’m pretty sure someone probably told them that standing out is a good thing, but especially in my field it is hit or miss. I’d be willing to entertain a resume with a picture or fancy pink paper, but I know other attorneys/folks in HR who would throw it right in the trash. They care more about following convention (or what they view as conventional) than creativity or standing out.

          1. BestBet*

            It’s also very possible they’re using something like Canva or any of the other resume template services available online which almost universally seem to have a place for a picture, and a side column that lists “skills” or the like. Even a lot of Word templates will have a place for a picture now. It’s very odd.

        6. Nonanon*

          Ughhhhh I had to help my partner put together a portfolio for a class he was taking where they required a headshot. It was just samples of coding assignments he had done in the class and a mock resume/cover letter, headshot wasn’t needed or to my knowledge NORMAL for the industry (past a LinkedIn or personal website, both of which I think are more normal to have a picture on vs. a professional portfolio)

          (“Had to help”=I was the one taking the headshot and telling him to smile with his eyes)

      2. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, my first thought was that the intent is to take advantage of any class or race privileges right up front.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Huh.

        I was hoping for a mash-up with yesterday’s “A customer blamed my beguiling Irish lilt for causing them to buy too much stuff.” Maybe the advice works if you have a sufficiently beguiling Irish lilt?

        But yeah, this has the potential to land as “My headshot shows I have the right skin tone, and my audio recording shows I speak the local language without an accent.” (Though I suspect this actually came about as an illustration of “No one needs to have ever hired–or even held a job–to make a tik tok with their surefire job advice.”)

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Or even speak the local languague with a middle class accent, because honestly, local working class accents can lead to discrimination too.

          1. a clockwork lemon*

            In the US in particular it’s not especially class-based. I’m an attorney working in the NYC area and people comment on my very light southern accent and certain regional colloquialisms. Every so often I will have to take a call from my mom during the workday and my coworkers get a huge kick out of the way my accent shifts when I talk to her.

            1. Reluctant Mezzo*

              If anyone calls me from UCA (University of Central Arkansas) to do any fundraising, my voice shifts too.

    4. coffee*

      I feel like the advice comes from someone trying to make money. “Here’s a tip! Make an audiofile! Please look at the ads on my blog while you’re here/watch my youtube ads/come to my paid workshop” etc etc.

      1. Snow Globe*

        It definitely sounds like clickbait — “top hacks that hiring managers don’t want you to know!”

        1. Media Monkey*

          OMG so true. the top tip is that hiring managers want you to be great so they can offer you the job and stop spending time interviewing instead of doing their actual jobs!

      2. Peanut Hamper*

        It’s 100% this. It could be coming from TikTok or LinkedIn as well, which is where a lot of this nonsense comes from.

    5. Brain the Brian*

      The only fields where this would even be useful information are things like performing arts and TV / radio. Otherwise, it’s so irrelevant to the job, and you’ll look bizarrely out of touch with workplace norms if you send someone something like this — especially for a simple informational interview.

      1. English Teacher*

        The audio file + headshot together were so odd that I’m wondering if it is an acting/modeling/performing gig of some type. Even then, I imagine they usually tell you when applying what kind of audio or video they want.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          But it’s not even applying for a job. It’s an informational interview.

      2. Magpie*

        This wouldn’t make sense in those fields either. TV or performing arts would either want to see your reel or they would have a script they want you to read. Nobody would be interested in hearing a candidate read the text of a letter they’ve sent.

      3. ElastiGirl*

        I have spent the bulk of my working life in the entertainment industry, and this is bizarre. Performers need headshots and reels, sometimes including audio reels, and other job categories in the biz may need headshots for publicity reasons. But for an informational interview? An audio file?? Huh???

        1. Brain the Brian*

          It would be a bizarre format to provide it, I agree, but nothing outside those fields would have any use for the information at all. Totally crazy advice.

    6. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Honestly, attached pdfs that only contain text that could have been in the body of an email are the BANE OF MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE.

      1. SarahKay*

        Not only that, but these days I view even pdfs with suspicion when they come as an attachment from someone I don’t know.
        Add an audio file and you can guarantee I’m not opening any attachments, and quite possibly not doing anything with the email other than flagging it as junk.

        1. Corporate Goth*

          Yes, this. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who went straight to malware. I would report the arrival of a strange audio-PDF combo to IT as spearphishing in less than a heartbeat, assuming it didn’t get flagged and stopped before it even found my inbox.

          2. Yoyoyo*

            Absolutely, if this managed to make its way to my inbox it would be reported to IT immediately. No way am I going to be the person who clicked on a suspicious file and introduced malware!

          3. Antilles*

            You weren’t, because that was my immediate thought too. If an email from an unknown user comes in with an audio file and PDF attached, the most likely outcome is that I just don’t see it at all because it gets auto-blocked by our spam filter. But even if I do, I certainly wouldn’t be opening it.

          4. Great Frogs of Literature*

            Yes, I was going to say that putting attachments (even PDF, but ESPECIALLY audio) in an unsolicited cold email to me is usually a sure-fire way to make sure I don’t open it.

          5. Observer*

            I would report the arrival of a strange audio-PDF combo to IT as spearphishing in less than a heartbeat, assuming it didn’t get flagged and stopped before it even found my inbox.

            Exactly – this ticks all of the boxes.

            And if any of our staff asked me what to do about this, I would tell them to delete the whole email without touching the attachments.

    7. Martin Blackwood*

      It reminds me of an assignment I did in my graphic design diploma that was like, an adobe online pdf thing? turned an indesign file into a static page at a link? Im pretty sure i had to embed an audio file in there.
      It felt like a tool for a problem noone was having. This advice, also, feels like its solving a nonexistant problem.

    8. Hyaline*

      Could it be a misplaced attempt at disability inclusion? As though vision-impaired workers wouldn’t already have a good workaround for reading documents and would need your audio file?

      1. badger*

        that’s what I was wondering. But my suggestion would be to use the accessibility checker in your word processor (or check it yourself with a screen reader app).

    9. Mockingjay*

      My company’s security software would quarantine an email with an audio file attached. It would never reach HR.

    10. T.N.H*

      I think the OP is referring to including a voice note, which is going around social right now as a suggested job search tactic. Part of the idea here is that for people of a certain generation, this is one of the most preferred methods of communication in life so it’s crept into the professional world.

      1. Observer*

        Voice notes are “preferred” in messaging apps that act somewhat like phone calls. But anyone who doesn’t realize that even “people of a certain generation” treat email differently especially in a work context, is not in touch with reality. Furthermore, it doesn’t mater what their “preferred mode” of communications is. Because in an email, a voice note *is* an audio attachment, and anyone who is paying attention is not going to open it, even if it hasn’t been flagged by the filters in place.

        And that doesn’t even address the claim made to the LW that this allows the other person to “hear their voice”, which is beyond weird.

      2. Butterfly Counter*

        I was going to comment this: Apparently, Gen Z is all about sending Voice Notes and this might be an extension of that trend.

        So maybe it will be more a “thing” in 10 years?

    11. Florp*

      I would 100% assume that the audio file was really a link to malware and viruses. I would delete the email without reading it, and probably block the sender. We spend a lot of time reminding our employees not to click on links from strangers.

    1. coffee*

      I am cringing so hard for everyone involved.

      Also it doesn’t sound like he washed his hands?! I know it’s distressingly common but ughhhhhh.

      1. BellaStella*

        I hoped with recent events hand washing would become more common. I watched a person last week come out of a stall and leave without washing hands. Ugh.

        1. Snoodence Pruter*

          I used the toilet in a big grocery store a while back and watched an EMPLOYEE head out without washing their hands. Bleeeeeeeeeeeee.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            I used to get upset about people in grocery stores setting groceries ON THE FLOOR, until the manager told me he and his partner wipe everything off when they bring it home. I’ve been doing that ever since.

            1. anon for this*

              Yeah, we never really stopped wiping down our groceries after the lockdown. And we’ve always cleaned our produce anyway.

      2. Brain the Brian*

        I know the LW doesn’t *specifically* mention hand-washing, but the coworker’s phone probably would have been in his pocket then anyway. I don’t think we can tell, and it’s certainly not the main point of the letter.

      3. Emily of New Moon*

        That’s exactly what my first thought was! Not “ugh, he brought the phone in the bathroom and left the video on,” but “ugh, he didn’t wash his hands!”

        1. Just me*

          Sorry but the fact that he brought the phone in the bathroom and left video on is way worse.

          1. Frankie*

            No it’s not. The fact he was sitting down probably means he was having a bowl movement. Not washing your hands after a bowl movement leaves everyone around you at risk of disease, is troglodyte behavior and totally unforgivable.

            1. Just me*

              Yes it is. It’s way worse to SEE and HEAR someone doing that. People use tp and don’t get shit on their hands.

              1. fhqwhgads*

                You know you don’t need visible residue on your hands for the bacteria to be on your hands, right? e coli is small enough to pass through.

      4. Lea*

        Never even bring your call into the bathroom. Or a room where you are not dressed.

        Mishaps like this are embarrassing for everyone including people watching we have had several mishaps over the years since we started video calls that people still talk about

        1. LateRiser*

          Also: use a physical camera cover (some laptops have them built-in, and you can get stick-on sliders that’ll work on anything) any time you’re not deliberately on-camera.

          Though my bathroom is right across from my home office, so in long calls where I don’t have to speak (and thus already have a muted mic and camera off) I’ll just turn the audio up to max and I can still hear it just fine from the loo.

          1. Florence Reece*

            Lol I’m glad it’s not just me! My “office” is a corner of my bedroom and I have an en-suite bathroom, so I just crank up audio on meetings where I’m a listener but non-participant if nature calls.

            My team culture also highly encourages people using quick “brb” / “back” messages in meetings where they are participants, though. At a different company, when I was in the office during Covid and our bigwigs were all at home, I would sometimes take similar non-participating meetings into the bathroom on my phone too. That culture frowned upon anyone stepping away or speaking out of turn so it didn’t feel like there was any other option. Makes me more sympathetic to the guy in OP1!

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I bought a Bluetooth speaker that does not have a camera or a microphone, and I pair it to my computer if I need to leave the room and keep listening (bathroom/let dog out/grab a snack/whatever). That way I can keep listening, but have no way to accidentally send outbound noise or visuals. It took me a while to find one without a microphone. I eventually ended up with the heyday Mini Portable Bluetooth Speaker from Target. (I got it when it was on sale for $10-$15, it runs $20 normally.)

          This mostly came in handy attending virtual conventions (since if I’m listening to a panel or concert I’m not going to need to participate), but also during the 3-4 hour board meetings of a non-profit when we had a President who would let meetings run forever and who apparently never needed a break himself. (We have a different President now and I haven’t needed to do this in a while, but I was not the only person who just started making my own break times during whichever agenda items seemed like they could do without me for five minutes during Mr. Never-Pee’s reign. We’d just put a brb in chat and people would catch us up in the chat when got back if we missed something that applied to us.)

      5. NotJane*

        My office is near the restrooms and I know exactly which coworkers don’t wash their hands because I’ll hear a flush then the door immediately opens. Ugh.

      6. LW #1*

        Oh my goodness I was so alarmed while it was happening that I didn’t think of that until now. He did not wash his hands.

      7. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

        And this is why I never shake hands with people anymore, Covid + disgusting non-washers = a big nope from me. I’m even hesitant to do fist bumps. Humans are gross.

    2. Cat Tree*

      People should be allowed to take a break from working to manage bodily functions. We absolutely should stigmatize the expectation that we must continue working even while using the toilet. People should be allowed to take breaks! This idea that I might want privacy in the bathroom being equated with stigmatizing it is really backward.

    3. AnonInCanada*

      I kind of assume by 2034, Skynet becomes self-aware, sends the nukes to Russia (who sends theirs back in retaliation), builds the Terminator machines, and the human race is eliminated. James Cameron just got the dates wrong. :-\

      So much for retirement.

    4. Peter the Bubblehead*

      One of my biggest pet peeves is when using a semi-public restroom in the building in which I work and someone from another company comes in talking on their phone – most often a business call – and without even a pause continues the conversation while they and everyone else in the room is ‘conducting their private business.’
      I want to loudly say, “Are you kidding me?!” but so far I never have.

      1. coffee*

        For a while someone in my building would use the bathroom while talking ON SPEAKERPHONE.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      I quit my last job because my boss didn’t wash his hands in the one shared bathroom. I know many people don’t and we couldn’t know who but being intimately aware made me jump ship.

    6. Mallory Janis Ian*

      I was in a team meeting after we had just recently gone fully remote, and I didn’t yet have my desk/pc/camera set-up as finely tuned as I’d have liked, so when I turned on my camera the view wasn’t from the webcam I had installed on top of my monitor — instead, it had defaulted to the webcam on the open laptop I had placed underneath my desk.

      When I noticed this, my first reaction was to bend over to pick up the laptop and move it onto my desk — but I was wearing a skirt, so as soon as I moved into a ‘wide stance’ to get a good grip on the laptop, my teammates (fortunately all other women) were all like, “Whoa! whoa!” Their reaction stopped me before I had well and truly flashed them and we all had a good laugh about it later — someone mentioned that “That is how an Only Fans video might start!”

  3. Free Meerkats*

    Per diem is tailor made for the situation in #4. The way ours worked (mid-size municipal government in WA) was, airfare booked and paid by employer, hotel and other transportation costs reimbursed with receipts, everything else (food, drinks, tips) by a reasonable per diem without receipts required. Simple, minimal paperwork for everyone. If you lived frugally it was extra money; if you lived large, it cost you money.

    1. Steve for Work Purposes*

      Yeah unfortunately a lot of places have done away with it or never had it – I don’t think I’ve ever worked a place that had that, alas. My current job does have an app re expense claiming so I can do it on the spot but I still have to go ‘This is what it was, this was the supplier, this was the category it falls under, this is the cost code it gets charged to’ and upload a copy of the receipt.

      I live in a country where tipping isn’t a thing (except in really touristy areas), but are allowed to claim tips for countries/areas where that is a thing, just not domestically (so if I tip the uber/taxi driver here it’s on my dime, but overseas I can claim it). But I’ve worked places that had a ‘no claiming tips at all policy’ (including when I lived in the USA) so this is at least better.

      1. Freya*

        I’m in Australia, and tipping here is a lot less universal than in the USA – it’s restaurants and ground transport, and even then you don’t HAVE to unless you want to reward extra good service. But every place I’ve worked, where you’ve tipped, it’s included in the cost of travel.

        The per diem thing is absolutely a Thing here – the tax office puts out ‘reasonable rates’ for travel costs every year, which are the amounts below which the tax office figures it’s not worth its time to chase receipts and handwaves the per day amount as ‘reasonable’ for a Travel Allowance that counts as reimbursement for taxable income purposes (ie the expense exactly matches the income for a net taxable income of zero). For people earning less than $143,650 per year, the ‘reasonable rate’ this financial year is $160.90 per day for food plus $23.95 for ‘incidentals’. If you want to claim more than that from your employer, you’ll need receipts to document it, or they can’t put it in its entirety as a reimbursement on your payslip – Travel Allowances above the ‘reasonable rate’ are (according to the tax office) income, not reimbursements, have to have tax withheld from them by your employer, and you have to claim your actual expenses against that income in your personal tax return.

        I have worked for places where reimbursement on receipts only was absolutely what they did; I have also worked for places where approved travel got a Travel Allowance at ‘reasonable rates’ between the approved days (paid in the normal pay packet) and expenses above that amount got reimbursed on receipts. I’ve also worked for places where the boss was at the conference too and everything just went on their card. As long as it’s explicitly explained and documented BEFORE the travel is booked what method is being used, and what counts as ‘reasonable’, then whatever method is used is OK.

        1. Artemesia*

          In the US if you don’t tip waiters in many states you. are quite literally stealing their service since wages are based on assumed tips. For a business to exclude the normal tips from cab fare and meals is unconscionable. There is no way their employees can not tip if they are decent humans.

    2. Brain the Brian*

      This is very common, in part because it adheres to reporting requirements for cost-reimbursable contracts and grants issued by the US Federal Government. It’s worth noting:
      1. The USG requires that anyone traveling on government business pay tips of reasonable amounts where it’s commonly expected to do so (Uber / Lyft fit this description) and bill the government for those tips. Contracted companies have to budget for these when submitting proposals.
      2. If LW4’s employer does *any* federally-funded work, they are required to treat costs for all program areas the same (e.g. they can’t give another client or themselves a discount that they wouldn’t give the USG). Combined with my first item, this would mean that if LW4’s employer did *any* federally-funded contract or subcontract work, they would be required to reimburse all reasonable tips that employees incur in situations where it’s common to tip.

      LW4, I don’t know if your employer fits this bill, but if they get — for instance — federal research grants, they probably do. AAM is right to suggest checking your org-wide written policies to make sure your own manager or department isn’t trying to skirt them to save a buck; many large research institutions write policies that adhere to federal requirements in case they do get grants so they’re automatically in compliance.

      I obviously have no way to know whether that’s true for your situation, but it’s worth checking. And if it’s not… the old default that tips on business travel are business expenses as long as they’re not excessive or unusual — and thus that your employer should reimburse you for them, period — is a strong argument regardless of industry.

      1. jez chickena*

        I worked for a family-owned company that had a per-diem policy that was used to communicate the maximum you could expense. You also had to turn in the receipt and complete an expense report. PLUS, the first two years I was there, depending on who approved your report, you may or may not be able to expense for tipping. The workflow for approvals was- The department assistant, your manager, the CEO’s ex-husband (tip decliner, he wasn’t always included), the accounts receivable manager, and the CFO. It generally took about a month for reimbursement if you were lucky.

      2. Harvey 6'3.5"*

        The only thing I’d ad, is that as a federal employee, you can’t tip too much, either. For Uber, which I use rarely, I usually tip the maximum amount allowed (usually 20%) but I can only expense 15%.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Even not the feds, it’s extremely common in my experience for employers’ expense policies to specify the amount or percentage of tips permitted for reimbursement. I usually see it specified by category too. Like they allow you to tip 15% at sit down restaurants, but they’ll specify $5/day for housekeeping, etc etc. And if there were specific things they’d not reimburse tips for, it spelled that out too. It got very specific. You can always do more if you want but won’t get reimbursed for it.

          It’s bad for an employer to blanket say they won’t reimburse tips at all, but in some ways, it’s worse if they don’t even have a specific policy and leave it to the whim of whoever happens to be approving a given thing. That’s a whole new level of disorganization.

          1. Brain the Brian*

            Our policy where I work is that non-lodging MIE (“per diem”) reimbursement rates include tips on meals, so we don’t get any reimbursement for those unless we direct-expense our meals. Most of the time, we just take the per diem, but if we’re eating as part of a group buffet or something like that, we’ll deduct that meal from our per diem claim and expense that meal directly. Transport (and associated tips) are always reimbursed directly (unless driving a person vehicle; then, it’s reimbursed as mileage at the GSA rate), and transport tips are at employee discretion in line with the usual practices of the travel location. We’re often traveling to four continents, so specifying a single tip rate for any kind of service simply wouldn’t work.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t like requiring employees to pay for expenses and then get reimbursed, though I know it’s common (and preferred by many with points rewards programs etc), but it’s a burden to loan the company the cost of my hotel (!). Per diem also needs to be set a reasonable rate by people with experience of the costs.

        2. Great Frogs of Literature*

          I was on a team where the whole team had to travel, but only two or three of the most senior employees (the ones who had gotten their cards a decade prior, when the company gave them out more easily), had company cards. It was fine if you were traveling with the department head, and otherwise it sucked.

      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, it always bothered me, too. My housing and flight would at least be purchased in advance on a company card, but the times I was on a two-week trip, covering all my food and on-site travel added up to a LOT of money that I wasn’t going to get back for a month or two. Especially when I was on a trip that long with a junior (lower-paid) colleague, because I knew that their finances were tight enough that it would be a meaningful hardship to be out that much money for that long, so I covered and submitted expenses for both of us.

        It’s wild to me that people apparently just get the per diem money. I’ve only ever had it be the max I can get reimbursed for incidental expenses on a given day of travel (and sometimes had to argue that if I’m buying four days of breakfast at a grocery store, I should also be allowed to eat meals and travel that day, because it’s ultimately cheaper to the company, even if I went over the amount I was supposed to spend that day). Just being given the money and not having to account for it (and not having to pay cash tips myself, since I didn’t have Stella’s good idea for dealing with that), would’ve been so much easier, not to mention that it could be done in advance, or in the paycheck corresponding to the travel.

      3. Just Another Cog*

        “Per diem also needs to be set a reasonable rate by people with experience of the costs.” Yep! My spouse was a teacher in the early 2000’s and the school district gave traveling teachers exactly $21/day per diem for meals AND transportation, including tips. If you ate from the dollar menu three times a day and took public transportation from the airport and around town, you might be able to stay within that amount. Unless you were in an expensive downtown area, then all bets were off. Many of his colleagues would bring food from home (cans of chili and crackers in their luggage) to supplement their meager stipends. It got old having to do that for a week.

    4. Lea*

      We have per diem but it’s not for Uber tips, which we can expensive to a reasonable amt which is iirc 20%? Now if you tip more that’s fine but not covered

    5. Really?*

      If it’s US based, tipping is expected, and in some cases a lower minimum wage applies to these workers. It is unfair to these workers not to tip. Whether this should be the case is a debate that has raged for years, but it is a fact that these workers cannot survive on hourly compensation alone. Equally, you should not be expected to be out of pocket for business travel expenses, and reasonable tips – to drivers, waitstaff and hotel housekeepers, among others – are part of that expense. Push back. While overly generous tips may be questioned, I have always been reimbursed, by all of the companies I have worked for in a long career – including accounting firms.

      1. Stella*

        I know my previous company didn’t want to reimburse for tips, but I wasn’t going to not tip, and I also wasn’t going to pay them out of my own pocket while traveling for work. If I hadn’t been traveling for work, I wouldn’t have needed to tip, so it’s a work expense. And lots of tips won’t have receipts, so whenever I tipped for housekeeping or anything that wouldn’t be on a receipt, I wrote a note that had all of the details and submitted it as thought it was a receipt. I had to argue my case with a couple of managers, but I assume it finally became easier for them to reimburse me than to keep talking about it. It could easily have gone the other way, though, with them telling me they weren’t going to reimburse tips, which probably happens a lot.

      2. JustaTech*

        Before a recent work trip I checked our travel policy and it said that we should only tip 15%, which is just not going to work in the places I was traveling. So I tipped 20% and no one said anything. (I think it helped that I only went to cheap restaurants on that trip, so the difference between 15% and 20% was a couple of dollars.)

        I couldn’t think of how to get a “receipt” for tipping the hotel housecleaning, so I just ate that and called it karma for all the times when I was younger and didn’t know I was supposed to tip the housecleaning staff.

      1. Myrin*

        A tongue-in-cheek reply to Alison’s “(Also, definitely do not include a headshot.)”, I assume.

      2. Archi-detect*

        I’m just poking fun at that comes up on so many resume questions she preemptively said not to- I am sure s lot of people ask

    2. amoeba*

      I mean, in certain countries you definitely should, yes – the US is not one of them.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        But don’t send your request for an informational interview as an audiofile, which is embedded inside of a PDF, which is attached to an email.

        This is almost feeling like a scavenger hunt, where there’s a prize for sending the most needlessly complicated request for an informational interview.

        3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Right, because you’re supposed to put both the headshot and the audio file as part of the little interactive game that you include in the pdf, where they can click on different objects to get you to talk about them using a poorly-animated version of your headshot, right? I mean, that’s just common sense!

          1. AnnieB*

            Reminds me of a line from the SNL school choir uniforms sketch:

            “Visit our website! Print it out. Fax it to our son. He’ll mail you a phone number WHICH IS A WEBSITE.”

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      Are you talking about letter 3 or letter 1, who left the camera on while using the head? No, please no headshot, LW1!

  5. Artemesia*

    Audiofile is worst idea ever. It is an imposition to ask for someone’s time for an informational interview, but many people are willing to donate their time in this tedious way as a pay back for those who helped them along the way. To expect them to listen to an audio file ups the annoyance ten fold. I am pretty sure I would never have opened one for a candidate for a job — certainly never ever for an informational interview.

    1. Alan*

      Yeah, this is bizarre enough, so entitled with respect to my time, that I wouldn’t do the interview. I’m happy to talk to people but this is ridiculous.

  6. musical chairs*

    It’s tough for me to read letters like #3 because I am so keenly aware of how difficult the job market is in a lot of industries, and how much easier it is to fall prey to the One Weird Trick that promises to end months of unemployment and help bring you back to financial security.

    As an interviewer there is no universe in which I am turning on the speaker on my laptop so that I can listen to your audio file. I can see that there’s effort in the unusual approach, and you’re trying to stand out, I get that. But, if I have a ton of candidates who have provided me the materials requested in the format that I built my recruitment systems around, I’m gonna go with the folks for whom I have at least one data point that they can follow reasonable instructions.

    If someone were requesting an information interview with me like this (and in a case like this, they’re almost definitely coming in cold), I would be so put off by how gimmicky their approach was. The biggest takeaway I would have from the interaction is that they want me to remember them, not for their skills/achievements or potential contribution to an organization, but because they did something super odd and hamfisted, solely to be memorable. That’s not someone who gets what matters.

    LW#3, whoever gave you that advice y incompetent in the field of career development, hates you, or both.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I think for new grads, advice like that mentioned in letter 3 can also sort of fit with a misunderstanding of the difference between school and the working world.

      This may be a bit less true in the US, where I think stuff like college applications take a lot into account – extra-curricular activities, references from teachers, etc – but often at school and even college, what matter is what you write on the assignment. You hand up your exam or your essay or your project or you give your presentation and you are graded solely on that.

      So I think some people sort of start out feeling like a job application is the same sort of test. The person who has the best CV or resume gets the interview and the person who presents best at the interview gets the job. Whereas in reality, interviewers aren’t usually looking to see who has the coolest presented CV. They want to know who has the qualifications, skills and experience to do the job. Yeah, they probably also want to see that the person isn’t completely out of touch or unable to format a basic document but it’s not like they are going to chose the person with the cool looking CV over somebody whose experience and skills make them a better fit for the job.

      And my guess is that the LW’s friend who told them this just came across it online or something and probably genuinely means well by telling them about “this cool new secret hack I heard about,” but I doubt they have any real knowledge about hiring.

      1. Artemesia*

        good point. It isn’t a CV contest. The resume needs to put a good foot forward and make it easy to see the persons experience and skills, but beyond that, it is about substance not flash and formatting. You want a resume that doesn’t trigger disdain and gimmicks will do that for a large percentage of people reviewing them.

    3. Observer*

      LW#3, whoever gave you that advice y incompetent in the field of career development, hates you, or both.

      Unfortunately true.

      LW, if you are convinced that this person has your best interests at heart, you have discovered that they have really bad judgement.

  7. Cold and Tired*

    I do frequent business travel, and my company reimburses me based on submitted expenses. All reasonable tips are reimbursable (and encouraged in the us and wherever else it is customary). They won’t do crazy tips like 50%, but a standard 20% tip in the us will never be questioned. They even will reimburse tipping the staff that clean your hotel rooms, along with all the other normal tipped services (taxis, ride shares, valet parking at hotels where it’s your only choice, etc).

    So the supervisor in #4 is very out of touch with business travel standards.

    1. El l*

      “If I give a 100% tip on a ride, that’s unreasonable and then you should have a conversation with me about my judgment. Barring that kind of situation, a tip is just cost of doing business and I’m not paying that.”

    2. mreasy*

      I tip a lot both for personal and work expenses (30% on taxi rides, 25-30% on meals or more % if it’s a small tab) and my company has never mentioned it. I guess it you’re a giant corporation you have to have a policy but it just feels like nickel and diming people who are traveling for work and therefore already going the extra mile.

      1. Anon for This*

        Mine limited tips to a certain amount. Taxis were 10%. I think we were able to do 15% for meals. While some of the lower-paid people limited their tips to that amount, what it really came down to was that if travelers wanted to give normal tips we had to eat the difference.
        They recently raised the amounts, but we would never be reimbursed the amounts you’ve listed.

    3. Garblesnark*

      LW4, I want to highlight that reasonable tips are normally covered, and the definition of reasonable can vary. I have rarely worked anywhere that didn’t cover 20% tips, but most places stop covering tips by 30% unless it’s just part of the per diem. A few places only cover 15%.

  9. Fikly*

    LW2: You’ve hit upon one of the fundamental problems of HR – it’s never at the top of the power structure, so its ability to help any employee or make any changes is inherently limited.

    That’s why HR, when it comes down to it, is always, always going to land on the side of the employer, not the employee, because the ultimate power is not HR – it’s the employer, and their interest is not the employee, their interest is the employer. In the end, it doesn’t matter how well meaning the HR department/person is, when they do not have the ultimate power.

    You have to decide if you can live with your current situation, roll the dice by trying another company, work HR adjacent, or get out of the industry entirely.

    1. DinoGirl*

      I disagree. As HR, there are organizations that value the function, including supporting employees.

    2. Tim C.*

      Agree. – Herein also lies the problem with complaining about your management. It seldom, if ever, turns out well. You complained so they moved you. It potentially targets you as a malcontent. At best upper management is aware of the problem but don’t like being reminded of it. My attitude is to let karma take control. If deadlines such as employee evaluations are not met, that is a manager’s problem, not yours. Such discrepancies eventually get noticed. As stated, it comes down to how long you can stand it or cope with it. As Allison says “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change”.

    3. Snow Globe*

      In a competently run organization, the people at the top understand that HR benefits the organization by ensuring management doesn’t do things that will lead to lawsuits. But in an incompetently-run organization, HR can’t do much to fix things.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        This. HR works for the company. A good HR protects the company by making sure policies are followed and employees concerns are heard and reasonably addressed — because that’s good for the company overall.

        A company that just sees HR as a cover for all kinds of bad behavior is bad in other ways beyond HR.

        OP, your company sucks and isn’t going to change. You can only change how you deal with it. Which I strongly suggest is get out before it warps your norms.

      2. ferrina*

        Well said.
        I’ll add that a good HR both ensures the management doesn’t lead to lawsuits and helps guide management into practices that increase retention.
        But yeah, in a bad organization, HR only has as much power as the organization gives them. If the organizational heads decide that they can ignore HR, there’s nothing that HR can really do.

      3. Observer*

        In a competently run organization, the people at the top understand that HR benefits the organization by ensuring management doesn’t do things that will lead to lawsuits

        I think this is true of most back end functions. Like the accountants who make sure you don’t get the IRS coming after you, you don’t get sued by people you owe money to, and you don’t wind up overspending because the inexpensive vendors won’t do business with you.

    4. KathyG*

      That’s exactly why I haven’t ever wanted to work in HR: responsibility without any authority.

    5. Sneaky Squirrel*

      True, HR works for the company and can only be as good as much as leadership buy-in allows them to be; it’s hard to make meaningful changes when a company’s leadership doesn’t see the value in investing in its employees. But good leadership and HR recognize that employee well-being and fair treatment is conducive to company success.

      It’s also likely that employees aren’t seeing all the times that HR “lands on the side of the employee” because those discussions are often handled behind closed doors. Employees aren’t going to see all the times HR talked leadership down from making the unfair or unpopular ideas that didn’t end up happening.

  10. Bilateralrope*

    I wonder if the audio file will be rejected by the email system because it makes the email too large.

    Probably not, unless the sender screws up the recording settings. Or the size limit for emails is lower on this email server.

    1. Brain the Brian*

      It may be rejected as an attachment format that’s easily corrupted into a virus, though.

      1. But not the Hippopotamus*

        I’ve worked places where there is zero chance an audio file will get through. The most likely outcome is the entire email will be flagged as SPAM and sent to email purgatory… and never seen by any human. For that matter, image files from external sources probably would have the same fate. Too high of a risk for both of malicious content (maleware or NSFW content).

        1. Brain the Brian*

          Image files used to mark an entire email as spam in our system. Now, they’ve become so come that we can’t do that anymore, and instead, our system just doesn’t automatically download the images themselves. I think audio files are still fully blocked, though.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, when I did a lot of email marketing at my first DB admin job, I was forever reminding the boss that we shouldn’t send attachments unsolicited for that very reason. Don’t send attachments to anyone who is not expecting them.

    2. Turquoisecow*

      I my company’s security training they basically tell you to never ever ever open an attachment from someone you don’t know. So an audio file from some random person asking for an informational interview could easily be malware of some sort and a lot of people would not open the email.

      Also why an *audio* file and not a video, if we’re going that route? I don’t like either but it’s weird to me to do one and not the other (plus a video file could be an unlisted YouTube video so there at least wouldn’t be an attachment, though people should understandably be reluctant to click on links as well).

    1. Just me*

      No no no no no he will just do it again and again, he needs to be taught that is NOT something normal people do!

      2. Brain the Brian*

        It seems very much like a minor mistake that he corrected as soon as he realized. Forget it and move on.

  12. Not a lawyer butt*

    LW 3, this would not do anything in your favour. Someone with no issues reading is going to think an audio file of you reading you letter is funny at best and insulting at worst, and someone who does have issues reading likely already has ways to deal with this like software that reads things to them (software which, by the way, may trip over a random sound file attached to a PDF).

    It’s a waste of bandwidth to send it.

  13. Scientist*

    In the first letter, the OP says they commented on how dark it was where this coworker was. So, if they heard that, they must have realized then that their camera was on right? They know it was on and either turned it off as soon as they could (or something weirder.)

      1. Lana Kane*

        Maybe he thought it was too dark to see him? The letter says he flushed, I wonder if they saw him flush or heard it too. Very odd.

    2. Office Chinchilla*

      Could be that turning on the bathroom light automatically turns on the fan, which would be too loud to easily hear the call, but he did not realize the camera (or microphone?) was on. I know it’s only one switch in my bathroom and the fan is loud, which is only reason #634 why I don’t take calls in the bathroom.

    3. LW #1*

      He turned his video on in a darkened room. His audio was not on. I’m sure he wasn’t even paying much attention until I started to talk about next steps – he wasn’t really involved in the primary topic.

  14. ChurchOfDietCoke*

    I’m in the UK, where tipping is not ‘A Thing’ like it is in the US, but most people would tip 10% on a restaurant bill if there wasn’t already a service charge added on. We can definitely expense this, so it should ABSOLUTELY be expensable in a place where tipping is REQUIRED.

  15. Testing*

    My fear with “we look for applicants with a stronger track record of X” is that the person will go and get more experience in X (if it’s not very difficult) just to finally qualify for this internship, and will then be even more insistent and (eventually) disappointed when they apply next time. That would be a cruel fate.

    I’d just reply very quickly and shortly and possibly at some point just to refer to information that is online. It wouldn’t take much work but would at least not lead to the above scenario.

    1. bamcheeks*

      You cannot really control for that, though. It’s equally possible that they would go and get more experience of X and discover that X is actually their true love, or that X would lead them in a totally different direction. If someone is *so* focussed on getting a specific internship that they are making multi-year plans based on it, there probably isn’t anything you can say that can put them off. You just have to let them figure it out for themselves.

      1. MsM*

        Or who knows, maybe in the course of acquiring X, they’ll develop to a point where they’re either a viable candidate or can accept rejection. My bigger worry would be them trying to argue why Z should totally be considered an acceptable substitute for X in the moment.

    3. Artemesia*

      This. If you will not consider someone, don’t jerk them around with BS. Tell them ‘we reviewed your materials and don’t think you are a good match for our needs.’ If they then persist it is on them. Don’t tell them to jump through a hoop if you won’t reconsider based on that.

  16. Another disappointing Australian*

    LW5, I’m going to offer slightly different advice to Alison.

    Don’t give a specific reason you’re rejecting the application. Doing this just invites the candidate to argue with you.

    Just say they’re not a fit and move on.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      It completely is, and it’s the kind of phishing test that our IT department likes to send out every once in a while, so I would not be inclined to click on it at all, because if you fail that test at my company, you have to sit through a very boring, very poorly organized, two hour training on email security that Satan would like to use in Hell.

  18. Nonsense*

    An email from an unknown sender with an attached pdf file, especially if the body of the email is very scarce, will most likely end up caught in my company’s filters as either spam or a phising attempt. If it included an audio file? It will absolutely get caught.

    Also, my company’s policy is to bin any resumes with headshots (exception granted for current or graduated-in-last-semester students, as we have a large foreign student population here and the university has well-known crap resume advice). So really, all that advice from your friend is just trebling the chances of no one seeing your resume.

    1. RobW*

      So, the university is giving them bad resume advice and your company is auto-rejecting anyone who follows it? I guess if you have far more applicants than positions this makes sense. My guess is you are tossing out a lot of qualified candidates who you might have wanted to at least interview based on a fairly petty criteria. Again, if you have so many resumes you can afford to do this or so many that your initial screen has to be utterly ruthless then fine, I guess.

      But it seems to me it would make sense to separate the photos from resumes, toss the photos out and put the resumes back in the pile to be judged on their merits. Unless you’ve got thousands of applicants for every open job, you’re likely missing out on good candidates..

  19. Justin*

    The last one has happened to me. There was a guy who my boss’s boss liked (like, personally, she hadn’t worked with him) who was meant to apply for my internship last summer but he completely screwed up the timezone. I still interviewed him but I liked someone else more (and that mistake – an honest mistake, but still – didn’t help).

    But now, every time there’s a new job ad for ANY position at our company, he applies. To the point where he’s basically autodisqualified in the system. Yet this guy keeps messaging me on LinkedIn to ask if I’ll recommend him for things.

    I really want to say, “I would recommend you not apply for every open job” but that would imply if he just stops for a second he’ll have a chance again. I could block him but that feels cold.

    1. MsM*

      Would “we’ve got your resume on file; if anything comes up you’d be a fit for, we’ll contact you” work as a “don’t call us, we’ll call you” strategy?

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Some people would see what you are saying and take the hint.

        Some people would see this and think “Oh, that’s great, they really like me! I’ll call every week just to check and see, so they don’t have to call me.”

        And yet other people would see this and think “Oh, that’s great, they really like me! I’ll call every week just to check and see, so they don’t have to call me, and I’ll go ahead and apply for everything just so that when they call, they already have all my information in the system.”

        Guess how I know that, lol.

        I sense from the LW that this rejection was based both on answers and attitude (and I suspect the attitude played a larger role; I may be wrong in that). I really would just tell them we don’t have anything that they would be a fit for and that frequent emails are hurting their chances. And then I would create an email filter that just sends all their emails into the abyss.

        1. Justin*

          Yeah I mean, it’s LinkedIn, so I can just ignore him if I want. I just feel bad ignoring people. So I should probably just mute him.

        2. #5 LW*

          I’m the LW for #5 and yes my reasons were mostly attitude based (their resume wasn’t a perfect fit but I thoroughly believe in training people on the job so that was less of a concern for me). I have to skip over the “feel free to get in touch in the future” which is normally what I write to people but I’ve already done that with this person so I have to be a little more final with this email. I’m leaning towards, “Based on your interview I didn’t believe you were a good cultural fit for our team”.

          1. Peanut Hamper*

            Just be sure to describe what that culture actually is. (See the link to my comment to your other comment down below.)

            Also, be prepared for pushback. (One of the reasons I never gave feedback about why we didn’t select someone when I was hiring. I always demurred to “We had several stronger candidates”.

            1. #5 LW*

              Would it be better to say something along the lines of, “Based on the answers you gave in your interview I do not think you will be a good fit for our team”? Or is it better to describe the culture and say something like, “All of our projects are team based and based on your interview I did not think you would be a good fit for this type of work”?

              1. Justin*

                I would say “good fit for this role on our team” to avoid any “what you mean I’m not like you”

              2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

                Waaay too much. Anything you say, this person will use to pushback. What I can be a team player honest. You misunderstood my answers. Well, you are just saying that because I’m (insert literally any characteristic here).

                You need to keep it short and clear — We will not be giving any further considerations to your application.

                Then feel free to filter her emails. You don’t owe anyone your time to review their email when you know you aren’t going to hire them.

          3. Observer*

            I’m leaning towards, “Based on your interview I didn’t believe you were a good cultural fit for our team”.

            Skip “culture.” That’s used so often as a dig whistle, that you could wind up with even more trouble.

      2. londonedit*

        Yeah, unfortunately too many people will interpret that as ‘We’re keeping you top of the pile and as soon as there’s a suitable job you’ll be first in the queue’.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      Have you ever told him “I’ve never worked with you, so I’m not able to recommend you for any positions”?

    3. ecnaseener*

      I realize this might not be up to you, but why wouldn’t/shouldn’t he have a chance if he stops applying indiscriminately and starts submitting fewer, better applications? What happens if you say “I can’t recommend you since I’ve never worked with you, but one piece of advice I would give you is to be really selective about which openings apply for and really tailor your application to each one to show why you’d be a good fit” ? Does he really stay autodisqualified forever?

      1. Justin*

        Well, I don’t know about forever, but unlike a lot of possible interns he wasn’t an undergrad student just learning the ropes, so it’s a bit of a knock on his judgment. Could he ever possibly figure it out? Yes. But I don’t know why he thinks he has an “in” with me in the first place given I turned him down (not rudely!).

      2. Observer*

        I realize this might not be up to you, but why wouldn’t/shouldn’t he have a chance if he stops applying indiscriminately and starts submitting fewer, better applications?

        Because the combination of attitude and bad judgement he’s shown means that there is no reason for this change to signal a fundamental shift in the underlying issues.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Hm, I don’t see any “attitude” in Justin’s description. Bad judgment sure, but of the “following very common, bad, advice” variety.

          1. Observer*

            Yes, but the *LW’s* description of the person they interviewed does absolutely show a problematic attitude. I would have tended to take their word anyway. But the example they mention in the comments is a huge issue.

    4. Peanut Hamper*

      I would not feel bad about blocking him. This kind of thing is exactly what that function is for.

  20. bamcheeks*

    aargh, that audiofile advice is so annoying! Doing informational interviews *to get useful and relevant information* is genuinely transformative advice that many people don’t know about, and I think anyone who gives good advice on how to do that is performing a real public service. Why’ve you got to ruin is by trying to turn it into a stupid STAND OUT WITH THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK nonsense!

    1. I should really pick a name*

      Interestingly, I’ve never actually heard of an informational interview outside of this website.

      Note: I’m Canadian.

      1. londonedit*

        I’ve never heard of them either (UK) outside of AAM, but it could just be an industry thing because publishing is fairly behind the times.

      2. bamcheeks*

        I’m UK, but I work in higher education careers and I push them a lot because there is tons of information you just can’t find out another way. I do expect to explain to people what I mean by them, though– it’s not a term that most people are familiar with, but they generally get the concept and think it’s a good idea!

      3. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I’m Canadian and I’ve done a couple before (as the person being interviewed, not the person asking for the info), but I wouldn’t say it’s super common.

      4. Lisa*

        An “informational interview” is just a specific kind of networking. It’s not a formal thing.

        1. It's Marie - Not Maria*

          Sadly, many candidates read “informational interview” as “scheduling a meeting to get my foot in the door so I can get hired.”

          Informational Interviews are just that. They are not designed to be an actual interview to get a job. Too many candidates try to use them that way though. I stopped doing them a long time ago for that reason.

        2. Plate of Wings*

          Well said! I hope to have these with people new to my field at some point soon and I’m going to keep this in mind. I think I have a lot to offer about the field and getting people started, but it’s unlikely my small company will have openings, let alone my team.

  21. MuseumChick*

    LW2, your CEO sucks and it’s not going to change. If you can do so without putting yourself at risk. I would start being very honest with any employees that come to you about the COO, that she is best buddies with he CEO and is unlikely to ever face any consequences for her actions. I would also start job hunting asap. And, once you do leave, consider being very blunt in your exit interview.

    1. el l*

      Unless there were issues OP fought about that were of the level of, “We are doing something illegal” and the COO shut them down…

      …they may be right but there’s no way to win that argument. Because power.

      OP should leave before the place warps them.

  22. Apex Mountain*

    All that just for an informational interview? I’d hate to see their advice for landing a real job interview!

    1. ecnaseener*

      No doubt that *is* how they say you get a real job interview, by getting a foot in the door with an info interview and dazzling them so hard with their “so, how do I get a job at your company?” that it just happens lol.

  23. BellaStella*

    Agree with all of the above on the audio and pdf and headshots replies – OP, also note that headshots are not ok and can lead to discrimination. Also, please reply to the person who told you this nonsense about the audio, etc – send them a link to this page please! This is ridiculous advice! Please also do not pay them for anything!

    1. Apex Mountain*

      FWIW, in some countries headshots are standard – I used to have a job where I managed an international team and German candidates’ resume would include headshots, marital status, how many kids, etc.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I once had to collect CVs from academics and my Austrian colleague gave me a CV which included his wife’s name and highest qualification. Imagine if we hired someone whose spouse didn’t have a Magister! The shame it would bring upon us.

          1. Lady_Lessa*

            For evangelical pastorates in the US, yes. The preacher’s wife is expected to be part of the team (unpaid of course)

            1. Observer*

              For evangelical pastorates in the US, yes

              Sure, for a lot of pastoral type positions it makes sense. Not just evangelicals. But anywhere else? Ridiculous.

          2. Zelda*

            For academia in particular, the Trailing Spouse Problem is a real thing. A candidate who could demonstrate that their spousal hire package would be a true asset and not a necessary evil could be very attractive. And yes, spousal hires are a fraught subject in all kinds of ways.

            1. bamcheeks*

              Not in the UK! We don’t really do that. Maybe because we don’t have the distances like the US does? The universities which are most likely to be making high-profile or international hires are overwhelmingly within an hour or two’s commute of major cities and wide labour markets, and it’s just assumed that your partner will take care of themselves. (Source: work in universities, was briefly on the academic job market myself, and am also partner of an academic!)

              It might occasionally happen at the level of Chair– I haven’t come across it but I haven’t been very involved in any hires at that level.

              1. Zelda*

                Distance is definitely a part of it. I went to college in the geographical center of Nowhere, at a teensy institution that valued undergraduate teaching and forbade professors to live an hour’s drive away and just pop in twice a week to lecture at us. It was nothing but cornfields around for that hour’s drive, so persuading anyone’s spouse (not just the spouses of high-profile hires) to agree to move the family out to Podunk was… non-trivial.

                1. It's Marie - Not Maria*

                  I think the Hubs did his Graduate Work at this same Podunk University. 20 miles of cornfield in every direction. I had to commute over an hour one way to find a decent paying HR job, because there weren’t any there.

                2. Zelda*

                  Oh, there are plenty of these. I went to Podunk College, anyway (almost 50 miles of cornfield and no graduate students!), not Podunk University. There’s the College of Podunk, the University of Podunksville, etc., etc.

        2. Artemesia*

          I have seen this in the US too decades ago. But the head shot thing is just as useful for the purposes of discrimination in Germany as in the US. But it is particularly odious in a very diverse environment where many applicants will be from cultures other than the dominant one in the business they are applying to.

  24. DJ Abbott*

    #5, I don’t think mentioning a skill or experience when you turn this applicant down is a good idea unless you would hire them if they had the skill or experience. Because then they’ll think “oh I can just go out and get the skill or experience and then they’ll hire me.”
    It sounds like you didn’t like their attitude or personality, and would not hire them even if they had the other qualifications. So just say “thank you for applying, It’s not a good fit” and leave it at that.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Me too! Great story and awesome heroine!
        Using her name has helped me channel her. <3 :)

  25. Charley*

    I don’t even like it when my friends send me voice memos. Feeling obligated to listen to an x-minute audio file from a prospective employee would put me into an instantly crabby and resentful mood, that I like to hope I’d be able to look past when evaluating the actual application, but why risk it?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Seriously. If I could turn off the voice mail function on my Android phone, I would. I don’t have time for this.

    2. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah my phone auto-transcribes voicemail and I only listen to it if the transcription is extremely terrible. I will always prefer to read something rather than listen to something – I read faster than most people talk, and the way my brain works, I retain information better when I see it vs when I listen to it.

    3. Artemesia*

      i hate ecards for the same reason — want to wish me happy birthday — send me a text or email or call me — but don’t make me go to some site and open some stupid file. I am probably grumpier about this than a normal person.

      1. JustaTech*

        The ones that get me are the invitation sites that insist on doing the “envelope opening” animation every single time you click on the link, rather than just the first time.
        Like, come on, I’m just double checking the dates! I don’t need to watch this 15 second animation *again*.

      2. Elle*

        Same. I’m a hater about gestures that are inconvenient to the recipient. Like, okay. Now you’ve given me a task. Happy birthday to me, I guess.

  26. L-squared*

    I worked at a company once that said they didn’t reimburse for tips. However, I’d always just submit the entire receipt, tip and all, and was never not reimbursed the full amount. That said, in that situation, it was the written policy, but no one ever said it directly, so you’d probably have a harder time completely ignoring that statement then saying “I didn’t realize”.

    I’m not sure why companies do this though.

  27. Anon Anonymous*

    My office’s spam filter would almost definitely screen out any random audio files originating outside my organization. And if you send it via other means (LinkedIn, etc.) – I’d assume it’s a scam or phishing attempt of some sort.

    Also, please no headshots ever, at least in the US. It never helps candidates when I’m assessing them and I prefer for initial screenings to be free from as much bias as possible – i.e. they look pleasant, not pleasant, etc. (not demographic related, obviously, as that never comes into my decisions).

      1. Nopity Nope*

        That was my first question, too! Gross. Well, now you know not to shake hands or accept a sandwich from him…

  29. Pretty as a Princess*

    #3, I’d assume the accompanying, non-requested file is a cyberattack vector. We’d likely strip the file or drop the whole submission. (I don’t know exactly how the system we use works). You could well likely have your resume completely ignored/deleted because it appears to be a malware attack.

  30. Fluffy Fish*

    #3 PSA – the “hot new thing” for anything related to job applications or interview is always, and I mean always, something you shouldn’t be doing.

    1. bamcheeks*

      Honestly, 90% of the time this applies to employers too. Currently the hot new thing is the video interview where people have to record two- or three-minute answers to be viewed by the organisation at a later date and it’s so horrendous. If you want a pre-prepared answer, just tell people to submit a 3 minute video or 300 word written statement and let them pick what they are best at!

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        oh yes, I fully agree it applies to applicants and the companies doing the hiring. istg if i ever interview at a company that asks me one of those inane thought questions like “how many tennis balls can fit in a taxi?” I will walk out.

        if it’s a schtick its bad and you should have to sit in timeout and think abotu what you’ve done.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          The first time I got one of those questions I really confused the interviewer by saying “ooh, a Fermi problem!” I then explained the term and their usefulness in physics or astronomy (my academic background) before going ahead and answering the actual question. Got the job so the brief geekout didn’t hurt. (It was a tech job, after all.)

      2. pally*

        Those videos are analyzed and scored for things like micro emotions which are then compared to the scores for successful hires (using an algorithm). They really don’t care about the actual content of the answer itself.

        1. MsSolo (UK)*

          My org has used them when they’ve needed to do large scale hiring for entry level roles (100+ of the same role in locations across the whole country, which means at least 3000 applications and 300-500 interviews) and they definitely pay attention to the answers. It’s my understanding the questions are scored by a panel in the same way as a normal interview, but you can actually get through four or five times as many applicants a day as you would traditionally (so you can actually complete the campaign within a couple of months, instead of taking all year on it!).

          Nobody likes it, applicants or panel members, but it’s an improvement on group interviews in terms of outcomes. Anyone using pre-recorded interviews for anything other than high volume entry level work would get a hard side-eye from me, though.

          1. bamcheeks*

            Annoyingly, a few smaller agencies which specialise in early talent recruitment and consultation have started using them in their own recruitment processes– which on the one hand, is kind of, fair’s fair, make early talent recruiters go through the process they are forcing on other people, but also uuuargh. >_<

        2. bamcheeks*

          I’m familiar with the backend of a few of them, and they don’t have that ability. You might be using a different tool, however.

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            Even if they *could* do that, I wouldn’t trust them to read for “micro emotions” given the bias that goes into programming algorithms in the first place. This is like two steps adjacent to phrenology.

            1. bamcheeks*

              I’d 100% believe someone is out there trying to hawk this facility– I’d be way more sceptical that anyone’s actually bought into it and is depending on it!

              1. Caramel & Cheddar*

                I definitely believe someone is trying to sell this, and unfortunately I also definitely believe that people would buy into it. Telling people that algorithms have bias is mind blowing to the average person because this stuff gets sold on its alleged neutrality and most people don’t give much thought to the source data.

            2. Flor*

              Yeah, my first thought was that it’s a great way to discriminate against basically anyone whose cultural and personal background doesn’t fit the mould of the average past successful hire. It’s like assuming a lack of eye contact means a person is lying, when it could be that they’re ND or from a culture where the level of eye contact expected by the interviewer would be considered rude, but multiplied a thousandfold by using an algorithm that compares these details in isolation.

              1. Irish Teacher.*

                Yeah, given the extent to which culture and whether or not one is neurotypical and probably one’s upbringing and likely other things I haven’t considered affect these things, that sounds…pretty likely to be problematic

              2. Humble Schoolmarm*

                Also, when I’m making a video, I’m mostly focused on making a decent video, not on the content of my answers or the job itself (I did that while outlining or making a script). A micro-expression of annoyance would likely have way more to do with how my cat just made a weird noise in the other room and I don’t know whether I have to re-do the whole video or not vs my thoughts on llama waltzing.

            3. Observer*

              Even if they *could* do that, I wouldn’t trust them to read for “micro emotions” given the bias that goes into programming algorithms in the first place

              And that’s on top of the fact that it’s well documented that people absolutely do present differently when they are recording something than when they are having a conversation, even via video call. And you have even less context for what is going on around the person than you would in a video call, which has less context than an in person interview.

              So, agreed. Ridiculous and stupid.

        3. DivergentStitches*

          So discriminatory against people with disabilities! I’m autistic and my EDS makes me have involuntary muscle movements as well. I’d never pass one of these at this point.

        4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Sure. And if you believe the algorithm trained on successful hires, who are more likely to be white men, will be equally good at classifying those “micro emotions” in other demographics, you’re exactly the target market for the product.

          Personally I’d rather hire based on how someone answers a question than if an algorithm thinks their facial expressions look like the ones on the dudes who built the system.

    2. Artemesia*

      I know someone who hired a walk in with gumption for a law firm a few years ago. So even bad ideas work sometimes.

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        well sure a broken clock is right twice a day.

        but the vast overall reality is those things not only don’t work, they make you look so incredibly bad that a company will simply say heck no to your candidacy.

        job applying is a numbers game – doing things that will make 99 employers all say hard no, but maybe 1 will count it in your favor is the definition of cutting of your nose to spite your face. id rather increase my odds that 99 employers will consider me, then 1.

  31. Chairman of the Bored*

    One of the best things about business travel is that it’s a means to leave large tips and turn generic “company money” (of which there is plenty) into money directly in the hands of a worker doing real work (where it is usually useful and appreciated).

    IMO, everybody who travels should be leaving the largest tips they can get away with 100% of the time.

    1. HR Friend*

      1/ That’s a quick way to get policies put into place that limit tipping. Just because the company has plenty of money doesn’t mean it’s yours to spend. 20% tips across the board, sure, but “the largest tips [you] can get away with” is just begging for scrutiny. 2/ All work is “real work”.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        I think Chairman means that if 20% is the highest allowed, then you should definitely give 20%.

        Also, “real workers” as opposed to keeping it in the hands of the company where they just hoard it and keep it out of the economy. There are plenty of reports that putting money directly into the hands of people as opposed to giving subsidies to corporations and waiting for it to trickle down has a much better impact on the economy.

      2. Chairman of the Bored*

        1) Yes, you have to know what will fly at your organization and stay off the radar but you should never ever give a tip below that which you know your employer will support. Service was slow? Too bad, give that 20% (30%?) – it’s not your money anyway.

        2) My employer is privately owned, all the leftover money is the property of the guy who owns the company. He has a jet, and a bunch of classic cars, and his “work” consists of having inherited the company and drawing a check for having a smart grandpa. I’m fine with diverting funds from his pocket into the hands of a restaurant server or cab driver etc.

  32. Delta Delta*

    #3 – This makes me think of the Toast of London scene where Toast is talking to his agent who didn’t have details about something. Her line was something to the effect of, “that must have been in the attachment, and I rarely read attachments.” It’s funny because it’s true but nobody admits it.

    I’m also involved in some small business partnerships. Our head partner has taken to sending emails that say “event today” with a link saying what the thing is. I don’t read them. I’m not doing an extra step to tap a link. And this is in a business that I’m a part of – I guarantee if I get something like that from someone I don’t know I’m immediately deleting the email.

  33. Delta Delta*

    #1 – I’d give the guy some grace and just forget about it. You never know if he had some sort of illness or something giving him some internal/physical issue. He should have turned off his camera and audio, but if he was in acute distress, maybe hitting mute wasn’t at the top of his priority list just then.

    1. ruthling*

      yeah i agree. it was weird and kind of gross but obviously a mistake and he didn’t expect to be called on just then.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      I had not considered this possibility, but given the number of times I’ve seen comments here from people who have IBS or a related condition and who say they have very little control over when they have to go, or how long they can hold it, I’m a little disappointed that I didn’t think of that.

      1. Artemesia*

        particularly if you are having a distressing attack of some sort you must not have the phone on in the bathroom — ‘Oh sorry, I have to pause here and call you back; have to put out a brush fire.’ And then call back. Phone in stall? yeah no

    4. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I’d give grace but also I’d feel so embarrassed that my employee didn’t feel like he could discretely step out for a personal emergency.

  34. Alan*

    For #5, I hate the “not a good fit” explanation. It’s easier for the interviewer but hell for the interviewee. Is there really no place for candidly telling the person *why* the fit is bad, what’s wrong with their attitude? Like “I’ve got to be honest. It felt to me like you saw working here as beneath you, and your comments about how people here dress didn’t help.”?

    1. I should really pick a name*

      Some people do not take feedback well.
      A lot of interviewers avoid bad reactions by just not providing any.

      That being said, there’s nothing stopping you as a candidate from responding with something along the lines of “could I get some more detail on how I didn’t match with what you’re looking for?”. They’re not guaranteed to answer, but they might.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yes, there is always the chance that someone is not going to take that well.

        Additionally, providing such information can open you up to a ton of potential legal issues, for a lot of different reasons. Hiring is a high-risk area.

        Also, most people hiring just don’t have that kind of time. It may be just a five or ten minute conversation for the applicant, but if I had to do that with all fifty people that I interviewed this week, that would be a lot of time that I just don’t have.

    2. Hyaline*

      I think the truth is that it’s often the best, easiest explanation. Sometimes it is “you were a jerk” or “you’re missing this credential” or “you showed weak speaking skills” or whatever, but I think it’s often harder to put into words—and taking the time to put it into words isn’t labor owed the applicant by the interviewer.

    3. #5 LW*

      I am the LW and one of the reasons I chose not to hire her is that when I asked her for something she could improve on she said “I don’t like constructive criticism because I think it’s mean.” I feel like I cannot be super honest with her, so I am leaning towards “Based on your previous interview I did not feel like were a good cultural fit for our team” and see where that gets me.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Be careful with “cultural fit” because it could be misconstrued in the wrong way. There was a post here a while ago about this, I’ll post it in a follow-up comment.

      2. Alan*

        Not criticizing here, just thinking out loud, but I wonder how she would react to hearing “Ah. This isn’t a good job for you then because everyone here gets performance feedback during quiet hours” or something. Something just really matter of fact, like “Oh yeah, this isn’t the right job for you.” It might just be my own neuroses but when I hear “Not a good fit” my mind just goes all over the place. Is it my education? My appearance? My personality? My experience? I personally would have rather have specifics and then I can determine whether or not I want to try to change whatever it is about me that’s putting people off.

        1. Observer*

          It might just be my own neuroses but when I hear “Not a good fit” my mind just goes all over the place. Is it my education? My appearance? My personality? My experience? I personally would have rather have specifics

          It’s also asking a LOT from an interviewer to figure out your particular hang up vs the possibility that someone is going to react poorly. This is especially true with someone who has basically stated that they don’t want to hear feedback and who also shown a real failure to read a situation. The likelihood of such a candidate actually accepting and responding reasonably to something like this is just way too high on the one hand. On the other hand, it’s also extremely unlikely that she’ll actually learn something from the feedback.

      3. No username*

        I think you’d be better off saying nothing. If someone thinks constructive criticism is mean I can only imagine the response to “not a good cultural fit” and the ensuing emails.

      4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Yeah if this person’s problem is they can’t take feedback on their work that is not 100% glowing, they should not be hired.

        But also if this is their attitude, pointing it out will only cause them to double down.

        Feel free to just filter their emails and if they apply in the fall, reject the application right away.

      5. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah it doesn’t sound like she’d take feedback well at all, I’d just either ignore it or say something like “I don’t think you’d be a good fit here, best of luck elsewhere.” Because if you said “you don’t like constructive criticism and we need to be able to give that out,” I’m sure you’d get a response like “but I said that was a weakness and I’m working on it, gimme a chance!” or other excuses and not an “oh okay that makes sense, thanks.” I think the latter response to criticism is more common especially in younger people and ESPECIALLY in people who have told you they don’t like criticism. There’s no benefit for either of you.

      6. 34avemovieguy*

        i admit sometimes i can take feedback a little personally in some situations so i empathize with that. however i cannot imagine not having the self awarness to refrain from saying that in a job interview.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Because interviewers don’t want the blowback from an enraged candidate, and if the candidate had a bad attitude in the interview, or seemed too fragile to cope with ordinary work stress (or what have you), they are that much more likely to have an extremely bad reaction to negative feedback.

      The interviewer doesn’t owe candidates life advice.

      1. Artemesia*

        Especially you don’t want to provide details to someone who says they think feedback is mean LOL.

    5. Fluffy Fish*

      Employers don’t owe you an explanation though. And most candidates will not appreciate hearing feedback as to why.

      “not a good fit” is reason enough.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      Depends. If the interviewee is gonna argue and be a jerk about it, then the easy for the interviewer hell for them is the better route.
      If the interviewee will take the feedback, go away and do some rumination and learn and grow, sure that’s better for them. But if the reason they’re a bad fit in the first place is a bad attitude, why would an interviewer expect them to have a GOOD attitude when being told that? It makes no sense. It’s asking to be harassed.

  35. Nonanon*

    I wonder how much of LW3/audio file is a misconstruing of trends amongst “the youth” to use audio clips instead of calls/texts to message people (why!? I don’t understand but I have clouds to yell at). “Ah yes, Gen Z is using this in particular, let us incorporate that into resume advice and be hip and with it!” or “Yeah this is how I communicate with everyone else why not do it in a resume/cover letter” type deal.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I am adding “I have clouds to yell at” to my personal vocabulary. Thank you!

    2. Rex Libris*

      …Because they’re probably sending it to a Gen X manager who Does Not Have Time for This Nonsense, and also wants them off their lawn? At least if it’s me, anyway. :-)

    1. Looper*

      Right? I feel like the “friend” who suggested this is the same type of person who will send lengthy voice memos instead of texts.

    3. I Have RBF*

      This.

      You know those training videos where a computer synthesized voice just reads the slides to you? Absolute torture. The voice is usually jarring, has odd cadence and pronunciation, and I can read and comprehend the topic at well over twice the speed that they talk at. Some of the training apps don’t let you fast forward over the droning. This sucks, and I want to bang my head until I’m unconscious.

      Yes, a lot of training is delivered by lecture – but by a real person, not a computer generated voice that is like fingernails on a chalkboard.

      1. 1LFTW*

        Ah yes, the Vocal Uncanny Valley. Distracting me with an irritating voice that I can’t turn off doesn’t actually help me learn, strangely enough.

  37. Portlandia*

    Audio files are super red flags for phishing attempts too. I would NEVER open any kind of file like that in my email.

  38. PivotPivot*

    I work for a large university system in the US. Unfortunately, they have a no tip policy. So, I know if I go on a trip, if I pay any tips, which I always do, that it will come out of my pocket and not be reimbursed.

    1. radish*

      Just another thing in a large pile of reasons why academia can be a problematic environment.

      1. Bread Crimes*

        Conversely, the large university I worked at had an explicit tip policy for reimbursement, with a maximum percentage, and it was expected that you WOULD tip that exact percentage unless something had gone terribly wrong with the service. And the “no reimbursement for tipping” in the letter above is from a corporation. This isn’t an academia problem!

  39. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

    #4 – In my previous position (public service) the state would not reimburse tips, presumably to prevent any shady transactions or accounting. However, the effect was we had to cover it for travel as well as when we hosted candidates for lunch. I feel your pain.

  40. WantonSeedStitch*

    No way in heck would I ever open an audio file attached to a request for an informational interview. Just send me a regular email and let me know what you’re asking for and why, for goodness sake. If by some chance I DID open it and listened to it, I’d be like “WHY is this person just reading me the email again?” If a person is visually impaired, they generally will have assistive technology to read their email already, so it’s not like you’re being more inclusive by doing this. Also, what’s with the PDF? What does it add to your request for an informational interview to attach it as a file instead of just writing it in the body of the email?

  41. Come On Eileen*

    I read #4 as the conference organizer talking about how the conference reimburses presenters – not the OP’s employer. Am I reading it wrong?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      No, that’s what was asked, you’re correct. It’s the third party doing the reimbursing for someone *they* invited (!), not the LW’s company. The answer is applicable to both, of course, but knowing how conferences often love to not even pay presenters, I’m not shocked they won’t pay for tips.

  42. Applesauce*

    Alison, how does the advice change if the conference speaker is working with an external organization (i.e. the organizer doesn’t work for the same company as the speaker)? that’s how I read it.

  43. Clementine*

    If you really do feel it’s a good idea to provide an audio representation of yourself, then link to a YouTube video that you have uploaded. Don’t attach a file–that’s a good way to scare someone off.

  44. Miette*

    Not sure I missed something in #4? They say they’re speaking at a conference and have been in contact with the organizers, who have said tips aren’t covered, not their own employer. I think the headline is throwing folks off because it says “Should my company reimburse me…” when there’s no mention it’s OP’s bosses org that won’t reimburse in the letter.

    That said, I’d still say Alison’s advice is correct and OP should push back or move higher up the chain of command. It’s possible that’s the policy for organizers because they’re from/in a country where tips aren’t the norm, and they’re sick of us tip-crazy Americans costing them more or something. If it’s not the case, then it’s certainly an odd policy to have. I work often on conference planning, and the goal if you’re reimbursing travel is to not inconvenience the speakers, so why wouldn’t reasonable expenses like Uber tips be excluded? It’s not like OP is booking a limo. The only reason I can think of is there have been speakers who’ve taken advantage of it in the past and the person OP is speaking with is (over)reacting to that past experience.

  45. Takki*

    OP#3, I would be SO annoyed at having to waste time figuring out what the audio file it is, why its there, and then actually listening to it. I can’t see any situation where it would help you, but many where you’d just be remembered as that annoying person that made someone waste time on a stupid gimmick. Don’t do it.

  46. PunkBookJockey*

    #1- If this happened in a public or shared restroom, I would say something. It’s a privacy violation of anyone else using the space. I’ve been in public restrooms while people are on speakerphone calls or meetings and it’s incredibly awkward. I don’t need to subject your coworkers to whatever my bowels might be doing that day.

  47. DivergentStitches*

    SO frustrating as an applicant when a company just won’t say “it’s not a good fit and you won’t ever be considered for this role with your current experience and skillset.” I applied multiple times for a role with my husband’s company and the recruiter said my expected salary was too high for one of the roles in one area, but to keep applying because the same role in another area might be in my range.

    I kept applying and emailing her whenever I did, and she eventually just stopped responding and I kept getting rejected. Like, just TELL me so I don’t waste my time!

  48. Spicy Tuna*

    #3, people don’t listen to voice mails, they won’t listen to an audio file
    #4, this is theft! If you pay a tip, you get reimbursed for the tip (within reason, of course). I personally do not eat out at restaurants unless there is no other available option, so having to pay for something I wouldn’t ordinarily choose to do in my personal life would really grate on my nerves.

    I once worked at a very low paying job that required a great deal of international travel. The company’s policy was to reimburse travel expenses using their own exchange rate instead of the exchange rate used by the credit card company. The company’s exchange rate was always less favorable. It resulted in employees losing money for every trip taken. Small amounts, yes, but this was a huge, international company, so a) spread across the entire company, it was a giant savings for the company; b) we were so poorly paid that losing $5 – $10 over a month of travel actually did move the needle; and c) it’s the principle! If it weren’t for the work, I wouldn’t be traveling to x,y,z far-flung destination so why should I have to come out of pocket for it!

  49. ANON4This*

    #2- I had serious concerns about one of the execs, not just with their performance at work but also their behavior with clients, their safety at events we have a strong presence at, and the damage all that was causing to our company’s reputation. I went to the CEO, and laid out my concerns, with information from clients and other staff, on multiple occasions. He wasn’t willing to do anything about it. I pushed one too many times and I was let go. His relationship to her and the amount of money she generated for the company was worth more to him than I was.

    So my advice is to keep your head down, ignore it until you find something new.

  50. Observer*

    #3- Informational interview.

    Please look at the flood of negative responses and take them *very* seriously. Alison is correct about how it might look to a non-tech savvy person whose filter didn’t stop your email. But that’s only part of the problem. It really is very likely that many filters will stop this from even getting to the person who you are sending to. And someone more savvy is unlikely to look at your email, much less open your files if they do get it.

    In other words, even if there were an upside to allowing someone to “hear you voice” (which I doubt unless the unstated expectation is that it would appeal to some bias), the downside is so high that I would *definitely* not do it.

  51. Pita Chips*

    LW2–my deepest sympathies. People going over my head is a major pain point with me. Unfortunately, there’s not really anything you can do. As we’ve seen from various letters, people are usually reluctant to address issues when it’s a friend who is causing them.

    I think your best bet is to decide if you can live with this BS and polish your resume if you can’t.

  52. ThursdaysGeek*

    This is LW2 adjacent, referring to the late performance evaluations. I love how our company does that. If a manager is late with their evaluations, ok, but that means the manager themself is not eligible for a raise. Their subordinates still are, based on their eventual evaluations, but if the manager doesn’t get them done on time, there goes their own raise.

  53. Pizza Rat*

    The only time it’s reasonable to send an audio file with a resume is if someone asks for one.

  54. Bruce*

    LW3: If I received an audio file in an email I’d send it to our IT dept as a possible phishing attack.
    I’ve been personally targeted by scammers more than once, it does not take much to set off my alarms.

    1. Bruce*

      I posted this before reading the other comments, relieved to see that so many people are sensibly paranoid… “just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you!”

  55. LW#4*

    LW#4 here!

    Something that I didn’t explain well enough in my question is that the organizer I spoke to is not my employer. They work for the conference, which I’ll be attending as a paid speaker.

    Since I’m a contractor, I don’t think I have any legal standing to push back on this policy. But I’d still love to say something if I can figure out how!

    I’ll still be tipping everyone regardless, and I suppose I can claim that money as business expenses on my taxes, at least?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No legal standing. But you could say, “Can I ask why you don’t reimburse tips? They’re part of the cost of me traveling to speak at the event and I wonder if that can be reconsidered.”

    2. Statler von Waldorf*

      I know that in Canada tips on business meals and business travel are considered a valid business expense, assuming the underlying meal or travel expense was legitimate. A google search of multiple sites strongly suggests that it is the same in the USA, but I can’t personally testify to that.

      I’d definitely say it’s worth it to save your receipts and ask your accountant. It’s likely an allowable deduction.

  56. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    LW#5: For once I disagree with Alison. I used to politely and professionally let applicants who had been repeatedly rejected know they should stop applying, as we could not move forward with them. I stopped after having several of these individuals feel that this was up for debate, and they kept trying to engage, trying to badger me into hiring them. One of them found the contact information for my Boss, and wrote a long, angry email to my Boss about how my Boss should fire me and hire them to take my place, because I obviously didn’t know if someone was qualified or not (I’m the HR Director with 30 years of HR and Recruiting under my belt, I know what skills you need to have to be successful in the position – they didn’t have any of them). Fortunately, my Boss realized we were dealing with someone who was lacking professionalism, and did not engage with this person. The Candidate continues to apply to every open position we have, and we continue to send automatic rejection responses to them.

  57. Head sheep counter*

    How many years have we been doing video calls? I would have thoughts about someone sharing their bathroom experience on a call at this point. Especially with video… but the toilet flush? I have thoughts about that too. We have MUTE buttons and no cameras for a reason.

  58. Lady Kelvin*

    For what it is worth: if you work for the government or are being paid by the government (grants, etc.) you cannot request reimbursement for tips as it is included in the per diem meals and incidentals. So that might be why some folks can be reimbursed for tips and some cannot. I get straight per diem when I travel so I can’t request reimbursement if I tip a taxi driver or hotel staff, for example.

  59. Sue*

    My county government employer firmly does not allow, and has never allowed, reimbursement for tips (not taxi, not hotel, not restaurants), nor does it give a per diem — receipts required for all food. Of course, I still tip on my own. Didn’t realize how common it was to reimburse for tipping.

    1. Statler von Waldorf*

      I’m in the opposite boat. I’ve never seen a business that didn’t reimburse for tipping. I guess I can see the reasons why for a government job, but it still boggles my mind that an organization would expect me to pay the tip for a service that benefits them, not me.

      I am Canadian though, and there are laws about requiring an employee to pay their employer’s business expenses up here that I don’t think exist in the US outside of California.

  60. Perihelion*

    PSA: Do not take a work meeting into the bathroom. Hit the wrong button and everyone can see and/or hear you. You can tell the others you need to step out for a bit, no reason given.

  61. Gilgongo*

    My company put out a thing that we can’t tip more than 15% (for anything). I still tip 20%, put in for reimbursement, and no one has said anything. I think it’s ridiculous!

  62. MLH*

    an audio file attachment would just lead me to believe the email is spam trying to get me to open up a virus lol

  63. Michelle Smith*

    LW4: Not all employers can reimburse tips. If you’re required to follow federal policy in the US the way I normally am (for example, if your travel is being funded by a federal grant), then it may just be policy that tips cannot be reimbursed. I only get mine reimbursed when I travel on private foundation grants, not federal ones, period, the end. So while it may be irrational, there may not be anything you can do about it.

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