open thread – July 19, 2024

by Alison Green on July 19, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    For those who work 100% from home, (1) does anyone else have a hard time because they aren’t socializing during the day? (2) have you done anything to help combat this?

    I’m fully remote (since the start of the pandemic) and I’m realizing even though I love working from home, being so isolated is wearing me down. I’m introverted, but I miss the “hello, good morning!”, the light chit chat in the kitchen while making coffee, conversing with people who you don’t normally work with, etc. Even if I go out after work and socialize then, it still feels so awkward because I’ve been so isolated all day.

    Pre-covid when I worked in an office, I’d go work out during lunch. I still do that now, and I feel a bit better. But it still doesn’t make up for the day-to-day isolation. Then what I end up doing to get out is go shopping or run errands, which isn’t the best solution lol. I don’t like working from coffee shops because I need 2 screens to do my job. Getting a co-working space isn’t an option right now either.

    This also might be a “me” issue. I’m actually meeting with a psychiatrist next week so I plan on discussing this with her. But wanted to ask y’all first. I live alone with my dog for additional context.

    1. Alisaurus*

      Do you have the ability to work from another space? If you have a local coworking space where you can purchase a day pass, that might help!

      My roommate has a full WFH schedule (I go into the office every other day, which is enough for my introverted self lol), and she and her coworkers will sometimes meet up at coffee shops for a few hours just for that in-person camaraderie.

      1. Alisaurus*

        Whoops, realized I somehow missed the qualifiers about coworking spaces. *facepalm*

        I do second the idea below about another screen though! Several of my team have a portable second monitors that are about the size of a laptop for use when working away from their normal setups.

        Also, if you have a local library, they often have conference rooms you can reserve! Maybe there are other “out of the box” options that could work for you.

      2. WheresMyPen*

        I’m feeling this! I moved back to my hometown 100 miles from my office in London during the pandemic and now can’t face the thought of paying London rent, but I do miss being in the office and just chatting with coworkers, especially as my immediate team is pretty small and I now don’t know most of the rest of the company, whereas before a group of us would have lunch together. There are evenings where I feel like I have cabin fever and am desperate to just get out, but in my town there aren’t tonnes of places open in the evenings. I try to go into the office monthly but it’s not the same. Not sure what I’ll end up doing but I find going to a coffee shop helps, and having clubs like dancing or netball in the evenings makes me feel less like a shut in.

    2. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      The year I worked fully remote I struggled with the same thing. Do you have friends that also work remotely? I found that doing a video call with them and doing some light chit chat while I worked on tasks helped! Granted I wasn’t doing any work that had privacy concerns and I wasn’t frequently in meetings, so I was able to just put my phone in my stand and basically hang out with them for an hour or so while we both got work done.

    3. Morgan Proctor*

      I’m not 100% remote, more like 70%, but I’ve signed up for things to do in the evenings, like music and dance lessons, and yoga classes.

      1. Someone Online*

        Yeah, I have become dedicated to my gym’s workout classes. It gets me out of the house, I chat with people, and it’s ultimately good for my physical health as well.

    4. A Girl Named Fred*

      Not exactly answering the question you posed, but – have you looked into a portable second monitor for your laptop so that you could work from a coffee shop or similar? I only ask because I have a coworker who is constantly out and about for her job, and their department specifically bought them these second monitors that attach to the back of her laptop and then slide or flip out when she needs a second screen. It’s still only the size of a laptop screen, so it might not work, but if that’d let you get out somewhere you could have some smaller day-to-day interactions it might be worth looking into!

      1. newfiscalyear*

        Seconding the portable monitor idea. I work from home and it is what I use because I don’t have a dedicated office space. My portable monitor is similar to a larger iPad with a magnetized case/stand.

        1. emkaaaay*

          Yep– OP, I had the same wish, and also experienced the second screen thing as a barrier. When a colleague introduced me to portable monitors (mine was maybe $100), it opened up a whole new world. It’s made it much easier to work from coffee shops, libraries, friends’ houses, etc. They’re increasingly common, so at most it’ll be a conversation piece in the coffee shop, not a weird imposition.

          If it’s doable for you, I recommend also investing in a second power cord for your laptop and keeping the monitor + cord bag in a certain backpack so that when you want to switch spaces, all you have to do is throw your laptop in and go.

        2. Wendy Darling*

          If you have an ipad there’s also software you can run to use it as a second screen! I made my ipad get a day job.

      3. DidTheyMentionScreens?*

        Did I miss something about requiring a second monitor? Most people I know are perfectly happy working directly on a laptop. I work 100% from home on a laptop. I know some folks who use a second monitor for certain types of tasks, but most folks I know actually prefer a single screen.

        1. DidTheyMentionScreens?*

          I swear I read it 3x but found the reference as soon as I posted. My kingdom for an edit or delete button…

        2. allathian*

          I absolutely need a big screen. At the office I have two monitors, at home I have a 34 in 4k monitor, large enough to display 4 PowerPoint slides at 100%. I use a certain app most of the time, but I hate switching apps, so the rest of the space is for Teams, Outlook, and my web browser. I need to look things up all the time.

        3. Depends on the job*

          It depends on the job. Software development and video editing really require multiple screens, for example.

      4. rolling with it*

        I just recently bought a portable LED monitor and now swear by them.

        My WFH set-up is dual monitors. This gives me about 80% efficiency compared to my WFH situation. It’s not perfect, but at least I can get all my work done.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Honestly, it doesn’t bother me. But I’m one of those people who never really enjoyed socializing when in “work mode” (same with school, I almost never made friends in class).

      1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        The thing is, I hate socializing at work too!! LOL I’m the type to focus on work at work and then leave. I never socialized in the in-crowd at work, but I would have a few work “friends”. Even before everyone went remote, I despised working in an office where everyone was so loud.

        Again, much of this might be a “me” issue.

      2. Clisby*

        I worked remotely for 17-18 years before retiring (computer programmer). I did enjoy brief socializing in-person, and my ideal schedule would have been 2 days in-office, 3 at home – but I had moved 600 miles away from office, so that wasn’t happening. Missing out on the socializing was offset by the incredible relief over not being constantly interrupted at work. I definitely missed out by not being in-office some of the time, but I also definitely was more productive working from home.

      3. Queen Anon*

        Same! I just don’t miss that awkward small talk that’s called socializing in the office. if there were people I was work friends with, I can still socialize over Teams and it’s just as good. (No, it wouldn’t be for real friends but work friends aren’t really your friends and it’s always good not to forget that.) My team communicates and socializes more since going remote four years ago than we ever did before, though admittedly that just might be a team quirk.

    6. Forest Hag*

      Are you able to take a walk during the day, or maybe go to a gym or a class during your lunch time? I have a friend who is 100% remote and lives alone, and he does his workout at a gym during midday, and that seems to give him some social time during the day. It also doesn’t haven’t to be an exercise thing, maybe just get out to a library and hang out for a bit. I would also look into joining some community things (like game groups, book clubs, etc) that don’t cost anything (I feel you on that – I would use shopping as an escape from my last job, as I worked near a large shopping center).

    7. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I’m fine with it – however I’m married and we have two kids, so I have other wife social interaction. If I lived alone, I’d probably struggle more.

    8. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Can you take a longish break in the middle of the day and take your dog to a dog park (or swap the gym for that sometimes)? My brother did that when he was 100% WFH and needed some extra social interaction.

      Alternately, have you tried volunteering or taking up a group hobby? I’m pretty introverted, but I do like interacting with people when I’m helping at my local animal shelter. You could try that or maybe art classes or knitting/crochet groups or disc golf or something else?

    9. Ewesername*

      I have a standing “cowork” date with a friend in another department on Wednesdays. We set up a zoom meeting, turn our cameras on and just go about our day. Other people pop in and out. So far, management is okay with it. We don’t refuse meetings that come up and we mute for calls. Occasionally we chatter a bit, but mostly we’re just working on our own stuff.

    10. kiwiii*

      Our team has a chat-friendly culture, so there’s often some chatter throughout the day about shows or pets or whatever, and then our team has a monthly “just hang out for an hour or so” meeting, and so does our full product group, where we play an internet game or watch a movie or just chat for a while. I’ve really found that after implementing these we still FEEL like the dynamic we had in the office, which I know a lot of other parts of our organization are struggling with.

      1. No Longer Gig-Less Data Analyst*

        Same here – many times our internal team will join a meeting early, so we’ll chat about stuff until the client arrives. Or for my co-workers that I have more of a friendly relationship with or work with often, I’ll ping them to ask about their weekend, or if they watched the new episode of a show I know we’re both watching.

        Nearly all of our meetings are camera on, including the internal ones, so I feel like I still have that personal connection. At my last job cameras were never on, and I did feel like it was harder to make small talk with an orange circle with a letter on it. I didn’t even know what most of my old coworkers actually looked like!

        1. Sloanicota*

          I agree, we are a cameras-always-on culture and although I didn’t like it at first, it does give me more of a sense of community.

          1. CamerasOff*

            Ugh, no, cameras are not required to make a connection and there are many reasons why having them off is better (bandwidth, medical, etc).

            I’ve had online only relationships with people starting before the time graphics were common, let alone audio or video.

            I’ve been working hybrid or at home for 30 years now and pre-pandemic it was pretty standard for companies to have all cameras off (except for conference rooms) policies. I do not understand how turning them on suddenly became a thing.

    11. karriegrace*

      Even if you can’t work from a coffee shop there is a lot of value in becoming a ‘regular’ somewhere like that. Are there any local coffee places (they are friendlier than starbucks or Dunkin) or diners/delis where you could get ‘the usual’? Honestly…if you’re pleasant you will find that after a couple of weeks of coming in at the same time every day for iced coffee and a bagel you will have exactly the level of morning chitchat you need before getting down to work.

    12. ADD hoc*

      I’ve worked fully remote since 2010, and would hate going back into an office, so I’m probably just different from you temperamentally.

      I find the chit-chat at the start of zoom meetings to be crucial to maintaining a sense of connection with coworkers. Just as in a physical conference room, you don’t want to spend too much time on it, but don’t underestimate its value. I have been in group’s that wanted to “cut the fluff” out of meetings. I now have a catch phrase: “It’s not fluff. It’s glue!” When you have few other opportunities for connecting, don’t get rid of that one.

      I also stay connected with my coworkers through Slack chats; we have a number of non-work channels for topics like pets and food. I’m also in a couple of Slack instances that are professional but not employer-sponsored, and I get community through those.

      1. kiki*

        “It’s not fluff. It’s glue!”
        I love this phrasing. The fluff is a reminder that our coworkers are people who, for the most part, are good and trying their best. Not having that reminder can work, but it can also go awry.

    13. Dread Pirate Roberts*

      When I was freelancing and working from home I found it helped to join some profession-specific and freelance-specific Facebook and Slack groups where if I wanted a replacement hit of that office chitchat I could get it virtually. Now that I work in an office where some of us are remote and most of us are hybrid, I instituted a weekly drop in virtual meeting so anyone who’s feeling isolated can have a social chat (I’m not the manager, it’s a peer to peer thing). Maybe look for opportunities with your coworkers who might be feeling the same, or see if you can attend virtual events that aren’t just work meetings but professional development or wellbeing events with like-minded people?

    14. Medium Sized Manager*

      I manage people, so I make an effort to do a Slack huddle where possible (but never without warning, I promise!). I also found it really helpful to use and download Marco Polo for chatting with my friends back home – it gives me the opportunity to talk and interact throughout the day while still being at home.

    15. Clover21*

      I’ve dealt with this being fully remote. I’m glad to give up my awful commute, but I do miss some of the face to face interactions, even though I’m introverted. A few things that help me:
      1. As much movement as possible during the day- morning walk in the neighborhood and under desk treadmill. I’m also working on getting to know more people in my neighborhood, too, so I can say hi during my morning walk.
      2. Schedule a time once a week to go to a coffee shop to work and particularly pick a recurring task I can do with just one screen (emails, reading reports, etc.)
      3. If you need to meet with someone, offer to do it via video conference with camera on.
      4. Schedule lots of social interaction for after work and on the weekends.

      It’s definitely worth talking to a professional, too. Therapy has been helpful for me in prioritizing self-care and work/life balance.

    16. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      I got a cat which helps.
      Also any time I think I might be missing out on something by being fully remote I remind myself how much it sucked losing 2-3 hours a day on commuting and getting dressed, packing lunch, etc
      I also have people I can chat with at work on Teams about random whatever, and friends I text
      Going out to grab a walk or a fun little drink or snack or something in place of your typical office coffee breaks is also really nice if it’s in the budget

      1. Goldenrod*

        “I got a cat which helps.”

        I was going to suggest this! A cat won’t solve all your problems, but they are sweet little work buddies.

    17. Baby Yoda*

      We use Teams and I actually interact with my coworkers more now than when were in office. Morning greetings, posting fun memes during the day, and just chatting.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I miss Twitter for this. I used to feel like they were my coworkers when I was freelancing.

    18. Bitte Meddler*

      I’ve been working remotely since everything first shut down in March 2020.

      What works for me is scheduling calls with coworkers in the first 1-2 hours of the day, maybe 2-3 times a week. Some of those are legitimate business calls (“I need clarification on X / Can you help me with Y”) but others are with coworkers who know I’m just trying to maintain contact with other humans (“How was your weekend / What are you working on this week?”).

      I also go outside first thing in the morning to water plants or do light gardening in my front yard for 15-30 minutes. My neighborhood is such that I am guaranteed to have a neighbor out walking themselves or their dog past my house, and people like stopping for a few minutes for light chitchat.

    19. PBJ*

      I felt this way too.
      I tried a variety of things to make me feel better – walking around the block first thing and doing my emails using Cortana and voice commands, meeting friends for lunch, working out at lunch, working from coffee shops and coworking spaces. It would work for a little while, but then I’d be back to feeling isolated, guilty for sitting on the sofa whilst the kettle boiled, and like every interaction was transactional.
      Ultimately I took a new job that was in person at an office. It’s flexible but by no means hybrid, which comes with its own challenges, but my mental health isn’t one of them.

    20. Applesauced*

      Occasionally friends and I will do WFH parties (usually on Fridays) and gather at someone’s house for the afternoon to work before doing something fun together that evening.

      Do you have other WFH friends you could try this with?

      1. By the lake*

        Two people I know did this while working from home when they had small humans. They both had childcare to facilitate working but would go to each others houses and work along side each other. They both found it helped keep them focused on their tasks and provided some adult social interaction.

        1. Nerdy rebels*

          When I was a teenager getting ready for the senior cycle exams at secondary school, my friend and I would regularly pretend to our parents that we were going to school but actually we’d stay at her (friend’s) house – her parents were both out at work – and we’d just spent all day revising for our exams, in separate rooms. At lunch time, we’d make lunch and eat together. It was great! We got a lot more done there than we would have in school.

    21. theletter*

      If there is a coffee shop in walking distance, could you pop in for a cuppa on mornings that are not too busy for you? I try to get an early morning walk in when I can and sometimes the interaction with the barista is the real caffeine of the day.

    22. office hobbit*

      I don’t have any better tips than have already been shared, but I wanted to say pls don’t feel this is a “me issue” or that the need for light socializing is something you need to fix about yourself! Many people feel the same. I hope some of these tips will help!

      1. Bee*

        Yeah, just noting I will absolutely not go fully remote as long as I live alone for this exact reason. I’m hybrid now and honestly still feel pretty isolated! I do not miss the commute or the noise in the office, which is why I’m still WFH three days a week, but so much of the casual stuff that’s not even office-based (going to the gym at lunch, grabbing drinks with a friend after work, doing hobbies outside the house) feels like it takes three times as much effort to plan and execute now. So, no additional tips, just sympathy!

      2. Future*

        Agreed. I would get very depressed if I had to go fully remote for work unless I had an abundant chance for human connection throughout the day.

    23. jasmine*

      How collaborative a remote work environment is depends a lot on your role and company culture. At my current company, people sometimes spend 5-10 minutes making small talk in small meetings. We also have a weekly team meeting that’s optional and not work, just for fun.

      My old company used to feel a little social when I first started there (not as social as my current one), but I talked to my teammates less and less as the company grew.

      So like, remote work can also involve chit chat but it depends on whether your coworkers care about that kind of thing.

    24. IWFH*

      Hm, I’m in a similar position. I work for a large company and during WFH I transferred/was promoted into a team that is based in a completely different office in a different country from where I am. I can’t go to my local office to work (or to a coffee shop or anywhere but my house) because of the nature of the contracts I work on.

      There’s only 2 of us who don’t work out of the other office so the team has less experience than my previous team (who were based in 4 different locations) in maintaining relationships with people they don’t sometimes meet in the office.

      What helps (a bit):
      Making an effort to discuss work issues with colleagues over the phone (Teams) when we have gone back and forth more than a few times on chat (this is on top of team meetings etc)
      Having some light personal chat on said calls (and on the team calls)
      Making a real concerted effort to do some social stuff outside work hours (rather than just letting things happen)

      My husband works for the same company though he’s able to work in the local office when he wants. So I do have company but it’s very hard not to talk shop and end up feeling like you’re at work 24/7! So another thing that helps – we walk the dog after work and once we get to a certain point in the walk (less than halfway), no more work talk.

      I’ll read this thread with interest because I’m still feeling a bit isolated/exhausted with the situation, even though it’s easier for me to be productive at home and I like the commute ;)

    25. ArlynPage*

      I’ve been working from home for 10 years, and I absolutely love it. I maintain a healthy social life by taking advantage of my neighborhood; I live in a walkable place and I walk either to the library or coffee shop or (more recently) walk my kids to school/daycare and naturally see the same people every day, but I also get involved in events in the neighborhood so at this point I sometimes feel like Belle in the beginning of Beauty & the Beast where she’s just walking around and the people of the town are all calling out “Bonjour!!” Highly recommend just trying to walk the same route every day at around the same time and start smiling at the people you recognize, it could turn into chit chat.

    26. allathian*

      I’ll admit it, my mental health is better now that I’m hybrid than it was when I was 100% remote, even if I only go to the office once a week or every other week.

      I do live with my husband and son, though, so I’m not completely isolated.

    27. Anax*

      I’m good with the level of social interaction – but I live with two partners, I have a couple of standing non-work ttrpg games and a number of friends I chat with regularly online, and I’ve also made a point of setting up social ‘coffee chats’ at work about once a week just to chat with other newbies and build a sense of camaraderie. If anything, the amount of social interaction can be a little much!

      This being said – if having a personal computer going is an option for you, there are some public Discord servers for ‘coworking’ or ‘body-doubling’, very much like Ewesername described. I would bet there are also quite a few Twitch channels for the purpose.

      I’ve done similar chats semi-regularly, and it does help a lot to break up the monotony.

    28. Decidedly Me*

      I socialize with work folks remotely :) Meetings tend to start with a few min of catch up, we have fun channels in Slack, a few work clubs (like book club), etc.

      Additionally, I try to have activities outside the house during the week (gym and music lessons for me). This is more to get me out of the house, but can also serve as a outlet for socializing.

      For the two screens issue – I have a portable external monitor that I use with my laptop when I do workcations. It would work just as well for coffee shop working.

    29. NottheBoomer*

      yep I am remote for over 4 years now. I use a chat feature to talk to coworkers but also my personal Facebook chat to keep in touch with folks during the day.
      I’ve found that making plans after work (even if is to talk with a pal) or during the weekend is paramount in keeping the isolation blues away.

    30. the cat ears*

      Do you have anyone you can work from home with? Any friends or relatives who also work from home, or who are retired but would love to have you over while you work and they do life admin, or stay at home parents who would appreciate having an adult come over to hang out for a few hours a week?

      Maybe working from a friend’s home or having someone come over to work from home would work better than coworking spaces and cafes. If you are going to someone’s house regularly you could set up a second monitor there (you may be able to plug into their TV or monitor if you don’t want to buy a new one).

    31. jmc*

      To be honest no I have no issues, I don’t miss being in an office, I don’t miss seeing people or dealing with other people. I love being able to control my environment, to be comfy in my home with the things that I love, and a bathroom to myself and a kitchen where I can cook whenever I want. I don’t miss commuting and trying to catch a bus. There is nothing like this and I want to stay this way forever.

      1. Packaged Frozen Lemon Zest*

        I relate to every single word of this. As a single lady in her 5th decade I sometimes struggle with generalized loneliness but I have Teams chats with my work friends, and my gym friends, and all the nice folks at my regular coffee haunt. The occasional mild social interactions with real life folks do not make up for how the office itself and non-remote work is the less-optimal scenario.

    32. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I joined a HEMA club and it’s been great for this. Like with work, we’re all there for a shared purpose and a fixed amount of time, so you’re not just showing up and being awkward at people until you awkwardly leave. But unlike, say, the gym, we’re there to interact with each other, not just do our own thing in the same place. Hitting people with swords may not be your jam (although consider it! I’m having a blast), but if you can find another hobby group or club where you like the *activity* enough to show up – model trains, lego, knitting, pigeon fanciers – that will help you keep coming back and get over the awkward phase where you don’t know anyone and have forgotten how to interact with strangers.

    33. Justin*

      I would go for dog walks/to the dog park. Or set up chat times with colleagues even if remotely. Or frankly plan lunches with colleagues even if only usually see each other in person.

      I’m like you in that being fully remote weighed on me after a while. Once my son’s daycare reopened and my wife also went back to her office I simply chose to go in twice a week (not required) for these reasons. So I empathize.

    34. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been fully remote for ten years and would prefer to stay that way forever, but I am also the introvertiest introvert, like I am perfectly fine leaving my house once a week if that. That said, I do chat sporadically online during the day not only with coworkers on our Teams application, but also with my bestie via text and in a hobby-related Discord server.

    35. Same*

      I felt completely the same way, and honestly for me the solution was to switch to a job with a local office I could go into 1-2x a week. And reiterating that humans have a wide variety of needs when it comes to social interaction and there’s nothing wrong with wanting what you want here! It may be more or less difficult to get depending on constraints, but it’s not something wrong with you.

    36. Emmie*

      I have been working remotely full-time since 2015, and hybrid before that. I am introverted as well, lived alone, and feel uncomfortable in a lot of social situations. I struggled with much of the same during the first few years working remotely. Almost all my social interaction occurred at work. Prior to working remotely full-time, I was laid off from a job. I had no social life whatsoever! I realized, at least for me, that getting most of my social interaction from work was unhealthy.

      I made a conscious decision to fill my life outside of work. It was uncomfortable. I worked out regularly. I ran errands after work. I get my nails done during lunch. I moved to a walkable community so I could interact with my neighbors. I moved closer to family. I joined a professional group and started volunteering on its board. I also pushed myself to connect more with coworkers. I asked the typical niceties that people do at work, and they’ve turned into genuine friendships. I even work remotely from different states sometimes just to change things up – and get better weather! Working remotely is not for everyone. If you are open to it, perhaps incorporating some things to fill your “connection” battery might help. Life is not perfect. I still have those lonely days, but not as often as the early days of remote working.

    37. Jaydee*

      I have had 2 very different remote work experiences and have felt differently about both.

      Old job, pre-pandemic: I was assigned to a project where I worked most of the time at an off-site location. I interacted with people there, but not as closely as I had with my coworkers back at the office. I was the only one working off-site, so I constantly felt out of the loop about what was going on back at the office. I missed out on treats in the break room, water cooler conversation, etc. It was very much out-of-sight/out-of-mind. I felt isolated and sad.

      Current job, pandemic to present: Because of my past remote work experience I was able to pack my stuff up and switch to remote work easily. Since everyone was remote all of a sudden, our bosses did a good job of trying to maintain camaraderie. We had weekly meetings just to socialize. We were encouraged to chit-chat at the start of virtual meetings just like we would have for in-person meetings. Since then we’ve gone through various iterations of hybrid work, and there’s certainly more socializing when we’re in the office (it’s sometimes hard to get any actual work done those days) but because we work pretty closely with each other, we still find time for that social chatting in other ways, whether that’s at the start of a meeting or via text or chat. There’s also much better communication overall, and we’re all in more or less the same hybrid boat, so it’s much less isolating.

      So a few things you might want to think about:
      – Is the problem remote work, or is the problem the nature of your current job?
      – How often do you interact with your coworkers, whether that’s virtual meetings, chat messages, phone calls, email?
      – How much of that interaction is highly formal (meetings and emails that just focus on the work and nothing else) versus less formal with room for socialization (meetings with time for some small talk, group chats with work-appropriate jokes and memes)?

      If you have a fair amount of interaction with coworkers and it’s not feeling like enough, then maybe remote work isn’t a great fit for you and hybrid or in-office would be better.

      But if your work is more individualized with little collaboration or interaction with others, maybe it’s the nature of your specific job and not remote work in general. Maybe a job that’s still remote but where you’re having more virtual meetings and more collaboration and more opportunities to get to know your coworkers would be a better fit.

    38. mskyle*

      This is really hard for me too! I’ve always thought of myself as introverted but it turns out I’m not *so* introverted that I can work from home and live by myself and not go a little bit crazy. I was going to biweekly physical therapy for several weeks and it was often the highlight of my day, which is probably not a good sign!

      Basically when I worked in-person I had to prioritize “alone” time and now I have to prioritize “people” time and it’s been a weird adjustment. These are some of the things I’ve been doing:
      – I try to have *at least* 2 out-of-the-house social-ish things scheduled every week – I have a standing weekly choir practice for most of the year, sometimes I take art classes, I go to a a foreign language discussion group, I volunteer (there are places where you can volunteer in the evenings!)
      – I am more aggressive about making plans with friends/family, which doesn’t come easily for me but I’m trying to get better at it
      – I have a few go-to “out in public to be around people even if they’re not people I know/care about all that much” things I can do when I don’t know what else to do – I take a book down to my local brewery taproom and enjoy a beer (or sometimes even just a half-beer!) at the bar, I have memberships to a couple of museums that have evening hours at least once a week, and I right now I have an AMC Stubs membership so I can go to the movies anytime I want.

    39. Garblesnark*

      I was paying my friend to message me every weekday at 11am and ask me what I was supposed to do and if anything was preventing me from doing it. He resigned because his kids are home from school for the summer, so now I’m on free trials on online body doubling memberships. We’ll see!

      1. Ginger Baker*

        Ummmm…can you report back on this body-doubling program because your friend setup is maybe my ideal life…

    40. Nonanon*

      Not just you! 100% remote and my partner who works night shift, and oooh boy we both have to actively make sure we’re not each other’s only social support.
      Is it possible to do a group fitness class for your workout? I don’t know what you’re currently doing or what you have offered, but it is an option to break the monotony, see some familiar faces, and not have to go to a coffeeshop/restaurant or coworking space.
      Hopefully everything with your psychiatrist goes well and you’re able to get actionable responses from them, but if not, you can always switch providers to one that works better for you. Best of luck!

    41. Everything Bagel*

      I’m no social butterfly and really hated working in an open office situation, but since I’ve gone fully remote I found I do need some background noise, as long as it doesn’t interfere with work I need to really focus on. When I have a lighter workload that can tolerate it, I’ll put on the radio or a podcast. Often times I’m barely listening and will get through an entire podcast and realize I missed a lot of it, but it sometimes helps me to have voices in the background, though they are ones I can control!

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I forgot to make my main point here, which is that having voices in the background as opposed to music I guess makes me feel like I’m not sitting here alone all the time, even though I am.

        1. Keyboard Cowboy*

          When I used to work a desk job weekends around my student schedule (waaay before covid, think c. 2013) I got in the habit of opening music streaming in one browser tab, and a no-music ambient coffeeshop noise video in another. The voices and ambient noise really helped keep me focused/avoid me saying “nobody else is here, what am i even doing, this sucks, i want to go home”.

          I used that trick quite extensively in early covid days too.

        2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          I often put the TV on in the background, on something I have seen often so I don’t get sucked in

        3. Retired But Still Herding Cats*

          I think you just made a very insightful point.

          I spent ten years working from home as a medical transcriptionist. I lived alone most of that time in a rural area. Probably most weekends I’d have some errands to run, but not every weekend, so it wasn’t at all unusual for me to go two weeks straight without seeing another human. (I used to joke about hoping that if I died, someone would notice my work productivity had dropped before my cats had polished me off and had time to get hungry.)

          I’m seriously introverted, but the isolation was extreme enough that even I thought it was odd that it didn’t bother me. I wondered at the time if it was because I was listening to voices (the doctors’ dictations I was transcribing) 40+ hours a week.

      2. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        I love this! I’ll try to find some background noise and see if that helps. lol I hated open offices too

    42. Keyboard Cowboy*

      Is it enough to, not work from the coffee shop, but stop by for a morning cup and to make small talk with the barista/someone else waiting for their order? It might be helpful to try and identify which parts of the morning social stuff you miss – talking with anybody? or talking with anybody with some shared context? or something else?

      Your work might also have (or benefit from) a video conference based social group or interest group or something. This is probably more unusual – but my company is large enough that we have a bunch of people who knit/crochet/sew/whatever, and we have a couple social lunches every week that some of those people show up regularly to. I find that helps with the isolation because we’re not talking about work, but we do have enough shared context that we can joke about work hardships together (like “did you see that VP email about the TPS reports? what a nightmare, right?”)

      1. Danielle*

        This is what works for me—walk to a coffee shop in the morning, chat with people there, feel like I “arrived” at work, and then walk back home to actually do work, having encountered some people. If I worked 100% from home, I might add an evening “commute” some days, also, like walking to the public library or a bar or a gym class. (Clearly I need the social experience of starting and ending the workday for it to feel real. :-) )

    43. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Our office is hybrid, but we have some fully remote people and we socialize frequently on slack. We do use it for work questions, but we have a chatter thread that can be about just about anything.

    44. Not that Leia*

      I think this is such a great question, because I feel this too. I am mostly remote (one semi-optional day in the office) and find the intangible sense of light connection is very hard to foster either virtually, or via scheduled social events. Interestingly, I feel the sense of isolation you describe even though I WFH with a husband, kids AND dog, so for me, it’s not necessarily personal contact that’s missing, but specifically professional bonding and workplace relationships.
      So a couple of suggestions—if at all possible, could you coordinate an in-office workday with local colleagues? Or could you arrange to meet at a library or cooking space with others from your workplace? Second, even though it’s not quite the same, being more proactive in scheduling “social” zoom/phone calls with colleagues can help a bit. I kinda hate suggesting it bc I am also an introvert and that feels painful but making a new habit to talk to others outside of project work has also been beneficial . And third, agree with other posters about trying to incorporate socializing into workouts or other tasks—can you bring a friend to the gym? Or on a dog walk?

    45. Qwerty*

      Yep – this is why I switched to an in office job and a common complaint when I ask applicants why they are switching from a remote job to my team.

      Humans are social creatures. I’ve noticed most of the people I know who are happily remote tend to have a built in social structure (like a spouse or roommate)

      1. I Have RBF*

        IMO, what works for me is spouse, roommates, and professional and/or social groups that have shared communication areas, like Slack or Discord.

        I can talk about a pain point at work, and my roomies just blink in confusion. I can talk about it in generic terms in my professional groups, and they will either commiserate or even have suggestions.

        I’ve been in one professional group for over ten years – it started as an alumni job hunt group for people from one company, and just… expanded. At this point I have former coworkers from three jobs on there.

        This type of thing is invaluable for people who work remotely. The LW might want to ask around among their peers to see if this type of informal, Slack based group is available for their profession, or even start one themselves. (Caveat: The minimum for a self perpetuating group is about 25 members, of which about 10% are active.)

    46. Elle*

      This may not scratch the itch you’re trying to address, but have you tried chatting with your colleagues more during the workday? Since becoming fully remote, I’ve made a point to be more chatty with my colleagues via Teams.

    47. Higher Ed Expat*

      Our team went fully remote in 2020. We know that personal connection is important in maintaining a positive work culture. In our department it’s perfectly legit to just put occasional “coffee chats” on each others’ schedules to say hi and catch up. No work task required. It helps a lot with the feeling of disconnection from each other.

    48. Quinalla*

      I WFH all the time ever since COVID lockdowns and I’ll be honest, I don’t feel isolated at all. I am talking to people in meetings a lot of the day and on Teams chat all day long. I will say during the COVID lockdowns, I made a point to have interactions like you are talking about – usually as Teams chat, but also talking to folks for a few minutes at the beginning or end of calls – as I did feel a weird combination of isolated and overwhelmed since I was stuck in my house but I was also stuck in my house with my husband and my three kids. A lot for a introvert who really needs alone time. I haven’t stopped doing that and I think that helps me a lot. During lockdown we also did a weekly chat with my siblings & parents and that helped a lot too. We did stop doing that about a year ago.

      So if you can, add in some casual, light chatting, sending someone a funny article or meme, talking for a few minutes about the weekend, etc. Some workplaces have chats set up specifically for this. Don’t bug people who don’t reciprocate, but there will be plenty who are looking for these types of interactions too. And up your socializing outside of work too, you probably aren’t getting enough there either.

    49. Having a Scrummy Week*

      I have the same issue, and I am also introverted. I have actually been trying to get out of remote work because it is a bit too isolating for me. It is very normal to feel this way. Even introverts need other people, to an extent!

      I joined a gym with group classes that I very much look forward to attending, Monday-Friday. This helps me get out of the house on a daily basis. I also plan a date lunch or dinner with my partner (could be friends for single people) on Sat/Sun so I have something else to ook forward to.

    50. Observer*

      For those who work 100% from home, (1) does anyone else have a hard time because they aren’t socializing during the day? (2) have you done anything to help combat this?

      In a way, you could call this a “you” problem. But I would say that it’s much more a reflection of the fact that human beings are social creatures and staying in your house a whole day *is* actually very isolating for most healthy people. Especially if you don’t live with other adults.

      Making sure to run errands every day is actually not a bad way to ameliorate the issue. It gets you out of the house and hopefully causes some of the same kinds of casual adult interactions you are missing right now.

      I have a relative who recently retired and was going stir crazy. Not that they had deep meaningful conversations all the time, but still. . . Their solution is to make sure to have some errands planned for most days, and also to go out and get a coffee most days. They don’t want to actually eat out on a regular basis for a whole host of reasons, but coffee is coffee, and the stuff from a decent place is probably going to be at least a bit better than what you would make at home for most people, while not being terribly expensive.

    51. ialwaysforgetmyname*

      I am definitely introverted but I like to be around people even if I’m not constantly talking, and I work a hybrid schedule. We use Microsoft Teams at work and I regularly chat with people on that. A coworker complimented me recently for how I build relationships with others and I thank Teams for that. Put me at a party and I’m terrified to meet people, but I have found that I get amazing response when I message someone at work with “Hi! How’s it going?”

    52. CatMintCat*

      I thought I was a confirmed introvert until work from home hit. It’s long over now and we’re back on site, but even with family home in the evenings (all had jobs that couldn’t be remote), I felt very isolated. I was more than happy to go back.

      Not nearly the introvert I thought I was, apparently.

    53. WFHWoes*

      I’ve been working mostly or fully remotely for most of a decade now for medical reasons. A few things you can do:

      1. Have a Random channel in Slack or Teams or whatever that acts like a virtual watercooler

      2. If you have meetings with a coworker you’re friendly with, arrange to join early or stay an extra 5 minutes to catch up every so often

      3. If you have staff or group meetings that would permit it, join a couple of minutes early and chit chat with others until everyone joins. We have a Monday morning staff meeting and it’s pretty easy to chat with someone for 5ish minutes this way, and others join in as they join the call until you’re ready to start.

      You can also do things like take a lunch break and phone a friend (if that works within someone else’s work requirements) or, if you’re local and people are willing to meet up/be in groups, arrange a voluntary lunch or dinner or happy hour with coworkers.

      I would also note that there’s no requirement to interact in person to have a real connection with someone. I met many good friends online, and while I eventually met some in person, there are many more who are only pixels and text on a screen. They are still good friends, some of them for 30+ years.

    54. Wordybird*

      Yes, I deal with this all the time and am working on solving it for myself. I have some SAHM/D friends but no other local WFH friends (and I find trying to work around small children distracting) so sometimes I can schedule a quick call around lunchtime or naptime to catch up with one of those SAHM/D friends. My parents are local and retired so I’ve worked over there before in my mom’s office while she puttered/crafted/scrapbooked/read. I run errands when the weather is nice so I get out in the sunshine during the day and have the opportunity to talk out loud to things that are not pets. :) I make all of my medical appointments during the workday for the same reason.

      Mostly, I’m very intentional about socializing outside work hours. I volunteer with a local non-profit and our local LGBTQ center, I take online classes, I participate in a handful of message boards, I attend church regularly, I have date nights with my husband every other week, I plan outings with my kids the weekends we have them, and I am the person who plans all the things for my closest friend group (who goes out every 4-6 weeks). My goal is to leave the house 6 out of 7 days of the week and to talk to someone who does not live with me 7 out of 7 days.

    55. Roguelock*

      When I worked fully remote I signed up for CaveDay which I really enjoyed—daily online meetings with other people also working from home where you quietly cowork with each other for a set period of time. I found it really really helpful, especially because after a while you got to notice familiar faces.

  2. What is reasonable anyway?*

    I have a question regarding “reasonable accommodations” as this is a completely new topic for me. Some background, I have recently (within the last year or so) been dealing with extreme fatigue for an unknown as of yet reason. This is “can’t make it through an 8 hour day without a nap” sometimes “cannot get out of bed in the morning” level fatigue. I’m working through causes and treatments with my doctor, but in the meantime I’ve been using intermittent FMLA to cover my absences.

    My job, though, could be performed 90% remotely. In fact, the same position at sister companies that I work with frequently are remote. But working for the local County Government means that our Board of Commissioners wants butts in seats. Is asking to work remotely other than taking unpaid FMLA an option? Some days I can function enough to answer emails, update databases, and schedule meetings and calls, but I just can’t get up, shower, and get to the office.

    I’m starting to really feel the pain of 1-3 unpaid days a month, sometimes as much as a full week, and I’ve drained my bucket of sick, personal, and vacation time. I get 7 hours a month of vacation but I basically use it as soon as it is available at this point between bad days and doctors’ appointments.

    I’m just unsure of how to navigate the request and whether it can be considered “reasonable” if I’d be the only one in my office that is allowed to work remotely.

    1. KitKat*

      I don’t have direct experience with this and I’m sure others will chime in. But it *can* be a reasonable accommodation, depending on the specifics of your your job. Alison had a letter about this around the time that folks were being returned to work after pandemic closures — some info specific to that situation but it has a lot about WFH as an accommodation generally.

    3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      You can always ask. It would help if you had an explanation from your doctor about how working remotely would be an accommodation for your particular condition (that you are mentally fully capable of performing the work but not physically able to travel to the office, for instance). You might not get the accommodation, or they may be willing to give it only partially, but it’s worth asking.

      Be aware that under your circumstances you’d need to clearly separate “I am working from home today” and “I’m too fatigued to work today”, so that your boss and co-workers don’t think you’re claiming to WFH and actually just napping.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        I would probably only want it partially anyway. We are a small office compared to similar ones, so sometimes we need all hand on deck to deal with the public side of things.

        Differentiating between “home sick” and “home, but working” would definitely need to be communicated. As would my hours. Would I still do 8-5, which is out normal operating hours, or would I have more flexibility since I wouldn’t need to be in the office for coverage? Lots to think about.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          Yes, definably think about what your hours would be. Or maybe you could be flexible. Would half days in office work for you and then you can go home at lunch, take a nap and then work another 4 hours?

    4. DivergentStitches*

      I have successfully arranged for WFH 100% as a reasonable accommodation for autism, so I can manage my lighting and work area as needed.

      If your coworkers have an issue with it, they can take it up with their supervisors, at which point they should be shot down.

    5. Now retired*

      I went through this with an employer – I actually have two different part-time jobs and one job allow the accommodation and one did not so I left. What I do know about the process is that HR will work with you to decide if the accommodation is reasonable or if there are other alternatives to working from home. Depending on how reasonable your HR department is, they may be willing to accept this as an accommodation or they may have other suggestions that are not workable. It’s definitely reasonable to ask, but if there is another alternative, that would keep you in the office at least, such as a hybrid schedule, they may only be willing to consider that.

    6. CherryBlossom*

      I’m actually going through a similar “mystery” fatigue! It is, no pun intended, exhausting to try to figure out, much less deal with. You have both my sympathy and empathy.

      You can absolutely ask if WFH is an option for you. In fact, you can even point to all the FMLA you’ve been taking as a talking point to show that you’re not just trying to get out of “butts in seats” (not that that’s not a valid reason, but it can work on people who are otherwise set on being in-office).

      It’s a perfectly reasonable ask, especially when you have a valid medical need.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My go to resource for examples of accommodations is askjan.org.

      Do you belong to a union? If so, your steward may be a good resource prior to going to HR. Especially if those sister companies belong to the same union.
      Or just go to HR (or to your manager or whoever) and say “I’m in the midst of some medical diagnosing for an issue that can make it hard to get to the office on some days. If I don’t have to do the commute, I can be fairly functional if I could WFH, but if not, I would probably have to call in and not work for 1-3 times a month or more. I’d much rather work than not, and I think I could be more productive and less disruptive for the team as a whole if I could WFH either on a regular schedule or on the my “hard” days. Could we talk about mapping out a trial period where I could WFH some or all of the time until my medical situation is diagnosed and a plan made from there?:

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        A trial period is a smart idea! I have a decently close relationship with my Director, so I think she would be willing to work with me if HR approves. So that might be a good way to get HR on board.

        We are union here, and while I have never really worked with them at all, this might be the time to make my dues worth it!

      2. hypoglycemic rage*

        TIL askjan exists, thank you so much! My HR is pretty great and competent, but you never know….

    8. Annika Hansen*

      I have been following this issue, but I am not an expert. I am assuming that your job already has the infrastructure necessary for you to work remotely. If you can do 90% of job remotely, that means that 10% is needed on site. It is not usually considered a reasonable accommodation for someone else to do part of your job. (You could still ask. They can reassign work, but they don’t have to.) Is this 10% of your job a daily task? If not, then perhaps you could ask for a hybrid schedule.

      The ADA is an interactive process so you can’t necessarily demand a specific accommodation. For example, when you say you want to work from home because you need a dark space to lie down, your employer could say that they can provide you a space. You can check out the Ask Jan website for more information.

      I hope you can find some relief soon.

      1. Nightengale*

        The language on reassigning duties relates to whether the duties are “essential” vs “peripheral.” For example if a person is expected to lift 50lbs and this comes up once every few weeks, it is probably peripheral and may be able to be reassigned (depending on size of office, etc.) If this comes up all day every day it would probably be considered essential.

    9. Medium Sized Manager*

      From the manager side: reasonable accommodations is typically “could the job be done without being majorly changed.” So, if you work in a contact center, not taking phone calls is not a reasonable accommodation. But, if your job can be done remotely, it would be a reasonable accommodation. I hope you have success in navigating this!

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        Thanks for this perspective!

        Without being too specific, I work in an office that is mostly customer facing, most of my coworkers have a case load of clients that they meet with and we have walk in services that the public can utilize. My particular role is only working with other Businesses, so I don’t typically get walk-ins, and I have a company cell so I am reachable away from my desk.

        Honestly, it would be less disruptive to have me responding to emails daily, when able, since I do get some time-sensitive questions and unless they CC the other person in this role it sits unanswered.

    10. WantonSeedStitch*

      To me as a manager (though not one who gets to set HR policy), this would be a reasonable accommodation. It would make you more productive and prevent the burnout that would drive you somewhere else.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        It would keep me more productive, for sure. As I mentioned to another comment, it would be less disruptive to have me responding to emails daily, when able, since I do get some time-sensitive questions and unless they CC the other person in this role it sits unanswered.

        The burnout is real though. I absolutely love my job and find it to be a good fit, but when I am dragging myself there just because I have cats to feed, it does cause some resentment. Oh to live somewhere with social safety nets…

    11. Working bee*

      I was wondering if anyone here has ever used an executive or leadership coach? I have been applying to new jobs but there are a few things (non-technical) that are holding me back based on feedback from my employer and after the interviews so I thought maybe working with a coach would be helpful. If you have, how did you find them? What did you do with them and how did they help?

        1. That's a Choice*

          A friend of mine in the arts recently hired a young employee in an assistant role, pretty fresh out of college. The employee ended up being very poorly suited for the role, was not picking it up at all, was pretty unreliable and just didn’t seem to have much common sense or orientation to details. It happens. My friend put her on a PIP and ended up letting her go.

          Here is where my question comes in. Since being let go, she has been trying to set up “lunches” with every creative she interacted with as an assistant to “discuss next steps.”. She updated her linkedin wildly exaggerating her role and responsibilities at my friend’s company. And she wrote an over the top, effusive recommendation letter claiming she had all kinds of skills and experience she doesn’t have “from” my friend, and emailed it to them asking them to sign it.

          This seems totally wild to me, but is there someone out there in the social media career advice landscape encouraging people to behave like this??

    12. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Yes, based on what you’ve said here it could be a reasonable accomodation.

      Do you have contacts with those sister companies that have your position as remote? If so could you talk with someone about how that has worked for the company? If you can give specifics details on the benefits (with emphasis for the company) then you might have a better chance.

      Maybe even see if for the next 3-6 months if they would allow you a trial with a hybrid workweek. Maybe every other day in the office or something. If you have a reasonable boss explain that it will be better for the company if you work from home rather than miss the day and be behind on work or making others pick up the slack.

      good luck!

    13. Anax*

      That’s my normal level of fatigue, so I feel you. Naps are a must.

      It definitely can be a reasonable accommodation, but a lot will depend on how open management is to remote work as an accommodation – and how worried they are about a lawsuit, honestly.

      Since covid started, I’ve had one job which approved remote work as a disability accommodation, no pushback at all. One which absolutely refused, to the point where I lost the job – EEOC ongoing. One where we’re all fully remote, but I’ve disclosed my disability openly with no issue.

      I hope this doesn’t cross the line into medical advice, but one possibility is POTS, which is often a big part of long covid, but isn’t well known inside or outside the medical community. Since covid is obviously going around, and you don’t need any significant symptoms to end up with long covid, that might be something to check for.

      (Especially because it’s easy to check for informally – take your heartrate while laying down. If it jumps by 30 bpm or more within five minutes of standing, then POTS is a strong possibility. Especially if you often crave salt.)

      That’s my particular flavor of chronic fatigue, and while it’s a pain, learning to manage it has helped a lot. LOTS of salt and hydration, lying down when needed, keeping out of the heat.

    14. NottheBoomer*

      I too have a ‘reasonable’ accommodation using intermittent FMLA. My doctor said (in writing) that lying down may be necessary for me during the day for ‘up to XX hours” and actually suggested WFH if it can be accommodated (I actually do WFH now but didn’t at my last company I needed this for). I was allowed to do a hybrid schedule, know that if I ended up WFH one day, then the next day I’d be in office.

    15. Turingtested*

      This is not legal advice but I have experience with the accomodations process. It’s important to demonstrate why the accommodation will help you get work done. You may not see things the same way, but it sounds to me like your commute can make the fatigue worse, and that by removing the commute you have more energy for work.

      One of the interesting things about the law is that your employer doesn’t have to accept the accommodation, and can make other suggestions. That’s where the interactive process comes in. Don’t be afraid to push back.

    17. Banana Pyjamas*

      If your county already has the infrastructure to support WFH then it’s a reasonable accommodation. The way government budgets work this could be an undue hardship to the employer if the infrastructure doesn’t already exist. Look to other departments to see if it exists, or even ask IT directly if there’s infrastructure to support working off-site. The fear of ghost employment among government folks is deep-seated and hard to overcome. During COVID we were at 50% staff f 6 hours each day. Only management worked from home.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Line item transfers could be an option if the cost to develop the infrastructure could be made up that way, but the approval process might include voting or be otherwise cumbersome.

    18. Garblesnark*

      As a fellow connoisseur of fatigue, I agree with the others and also wonder if there are other compromises you would be willing to make on your end.

      eg: in addition to a hybrid work accommodation, at my last job I also often scrubbed my hair and body with micellar wipes instead of showering, carpooled instead of driving, and got an intermittent use private office that I laid on the floor of sometimes.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        I do thankfully have a private office and an hour lunch currently, so I am surviving on lunchtime naps when I am here!

    19. A Little Birdy Told Me*

      So I have a condition which makes me utterly exhausted every few months for a period of maybe a week, ten days. In my case it’s a ‘need to take a long lunch and a nap’ to make it through the day’ variety of tired, on an unpredictable schedule (it’s linked to my period, but there isn’t a 1:1 link; most months I’m fine or nearly fine, but every few…)

      Anyway, yes, at those times I have an informal agreement with my line manager that I don’t come into the office during those times unless there’s a SERIOUS reason for it. I think your situation seems like a reasonable adjustment on that basis!

      (Although it should be noted that we don’t have ANY mandatory days in the office, although team culture is to do roughly one day a week.)

    20. Rosyglasses*

      You can also go to askjan (dot) org. They are a free resource for employees and employers and help navigate laws around disability and ADA acccommodations — they have a livechat function that can likely help direct you and get you resources for your state!

    21. Dr. Doll*

      Really depends upon your organization. Here at my organization, it would NOT be seen as a reasonable accommodation. I hope yours will help you!

    22. The Bunny*

      Not necessarily.

      A reasonable accommodation doesn’t have to be what you want it to be. The employer has a lot of say as to what is and isn’t reasonable.

      They might be willing to allow you to be remote on the days you are too fatigued to be in, but it’s not a slam dunk that it’s reasonable to allow you to be fully remote.

    23. Bee*

      I am also a person with a mystery fatigue (probably long covid or other post-viral syndrome, recently diagnosed with POTS). It started when we were in the office full time, and I honestly think fighting through it constantly to go into the office is part of what caused it – I just could not get anywhere near the amount of rest I needed. I now only go in 2 days a week, and the difference in my ability to both recover from overexertion and carry on working through the bad days is VAST. So based on my experience, this isn’t only a useful accommodation for your own health, it’s something that will benefit them because you’ll be able to actually do more work. If you can, I would recommend working out a fixed schedule that has you working from home more days than you go into the office, not just working from home on the days when you can’t make it in. Our company is now hybrid for everyone, so unfortunately I can’t give you any tips on how to ask for that, but I just want to confirm your instinct that this is worth asking for.

    24. The Unionizer Bunny*

      To answer your name,
      https://askjan.org/articles/What-Does-Reasonable-Mean-A-Deconstructive-Series-for-ADA-Terminology.cfm

      I’m just unsure of how to navigate the request and whether it can be considered “reasonable” if I’d be the only one in my office that is allowed to work remotely.

      Because an accommodation is, by definition, an alteration to how things are normally done, an employer can’t claim “undue hardship” on the sole basis that they don’t provide it for anyone else. (This also helps protect employers from the “But then we’d have to do this for everyone and we can’t afford that!” protest.)

  3. Natalie*

    Removed because it’s not work-related but you’re welcome to post it in the Saturday thread.

  4. Jess R.*

    Training newbies! Let’s talk/commiserate.

    I have a new hire I’ve been training, and she’s genuinely great. She’s picking things up, she’s receptive to feedback and integrates it immediately, the ideal trainee. And also, even though I love it, I find training someone brand new *exhausting* because I keep running up against things I didn’t think about explaining (because they’re second nature to me). I do recognize this as a good thing — it makes me notice parts of the work I’d taken for granted — but also it just takes up So Much of my bandwidth.

    What’s your favorite part about training? Least favorite part?

    1. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      I’m the complete opposite! I love having to explain the “why” of certain tasks and procedures when I am training since I find it a great opportunity to omit things that don’t have a good “why!”

      My least favorite part is that usually I’ve been doing the work of two for so long it has become normal and now I have to figure out how to dive tasks. And thus I am on AMA…. lol

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Are we the same person? :) I have been training new hires continuously since pre-COVID, over 5 years now for a position with an 18 month-2 year training cycle. As for your realization that you keep realizing that there are things that you need to explain in more detail because they’re second nature to you, my only suggestion is to create a guide that you’re continuously adding to or very detailed e-mails that you save and recycle when/if you have to train someone brand new again. I am an extroverted introvert and frankly, all the human interaction that can take up most of the day, some days, is mentally (and physically) exhausting to me.

      My favorite part of training is the “AHA moments” when something really clicks and they get it on their own without needing any assistance. It also makes my nerd heart happy to see trainees who genuinely enjoy the work and are enthusiastic about it.

      My lease favorite thing really can’t be adjusted for….are people’s personalities and how quickly they learn and their learning style. I cannot stand people that I have to sit with and walk through something in-person because they cannot follow the step-by-step directions that are written (with pictures). I will do it and I don’t let on that I’m annoyed, but yeah, I’m annoyed.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        This is fascinating, FRM, because I’m someone who needs to do the task alongside the person training me and then I pick it up pretty quickly. But reading a manual doesn’t always stick in my brain, especially when it’s a sea of screen grabs for each step. I need to actually DO the thing before it clicks for me.

        That said, I would go through the whole handbook first and try to understand what that mean in my role so that I’m not starting from zero when working with a trainer in person.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          I know that many people learn better with someone walking them through something and it’s more efficient than having them keep trying on their own, messing up, making corrections, trying again, etc. which is why I will never let on that it isn’t my favorite. And the goal is always for them to learn and be successful, so I’ll do whatever I have to do to make that happen. Everyone needs someone to sit with them on occasion, which is very normal. It’s the people that can’t/won’t do anything on their own that I struggle with.

          1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

            Completely fair. You want them to actually be engaged or else why are they even there?

          2. Frustrated Mentor*

            I totally empathize with this and have been struggling with it recently. It’s a fine line between helping and handholding. At a certain point, you can’t learn without trying.

    3. MuseumNerd*

      I love training and seeing how people process things. I think my favorite part is getting to know my new employees and how their brains work. But I also find it completely exhausting. I’m the boss and we do a week of intense training followed by a shadowing period, and after that first full week I completely crash.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      My favorite part is when they start gaining confidence in their abilities! Watching them go, “oh, I get this, I can do this” is so gratifying. I actually really enjoy training newbies as long as they have a good attitude (paying attention, asking questions, and accepting differences between what we do here and other things they may have done at other places). I think the only thing I don’t like is when someone doesn’t ask any questions or say anything to show they’re thinking about the training. Sometimes “no questions” means “this is super easy and I have already gotten it 100%,” but all too often it means “I haven’t been paying close enough attention to realize I’ve missed or misunderstood things.”

    5. Apt Nickname*

      One reason I enjoy training is seeing our processes through new eyes. It really helps find those places where actions aren’t clear unless you already know what you’re doing. So then we make improvements and it’s better for everyone. I once trained someone on the spectrum and she required very concrete instructions. There were some steps that were a litte vague (think ‘pet the llama occasionally while grooming’) and having to specify ‘once every 10-15 minutes’ was beneficial for everyone. And it makes me a better trainer for everyone down the line.

    6. not nice, don't care*

      I enjoy training someone to the point where they can do the job, but also expand on training/current practice and find better ways to do it. I always tell new folks to learn it my way first, then sort out whatever workflow works best for them while still meeting the needs they were hired for.

    7. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      For me one of the hardest things is figuring out what work to assign someone who isn’t up to full level yet. I know what I can do with a more experienced colleague but I don’t want to set someone up for failure by giving them something too big or important for them to handle. But then I get stuck thinking “No, they can’t do this yet, not that either” and I know they will never learn that way.

      That’s the really exhausting part for me, the amount of searching to find an assignment that’s the right size for them.

      The good stuff is seeing growth, or sending a note to their grandboss with them copied saying how well they did today because XZY was a clutch performance, and also getting the enthusiasm or new perspectives that come with someone newer to the role/industry.

    8. Justin*

      Similar to you, each time I train someone I enjoy finding better and better ways to explain things. However, I am literally a teacher/trainer of adults by trade, so of course I like training.

      What I mostly hate are the checklist-y things HR makes me do (not the forms and harassment trainings, they do that) that aren’t relevant to my particular department.

    9. JustaTech*

      I really enjoy training people in our process because it’s fun to get time in the lab, and it’s a weird process so even experienced people are like “wait, and then you what?”
      In the beginning the most challenging part was realized that when I demo the process it takes about an extra 45 minutes to an hour, but when I watch the new person do the process themselves it often takes another 2 hours, just because they haven’t learned all the little physical tricks to making it go faster.
      That and it’s a *lot* of talking in a room where I can’t take a water break, so my voice is pretty fried by the end.
      The hardest part is training people who don’t want to be there, don’t want to take safety precautions, and that one guy who had to check his caps were screwed on 4 times for every step.

      1. Diatryma*

        Lab training is such a weird thing– it’s hands-on, but still has written procedures you have to read thoroughly (I’m in a medical lab, so they’re legal documents we have to follow) and a lot of knowledge and judgement in the background. I’m always happy when I can figure out the source of an error and a potential workaround.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      My favourite part is when they ask me something I actually don’t know the answer to (but is relevant to our area) so then we get to go and find out together!

    11. goddessoftransitory*

      We haven’t hired in a while, but when we were I was a go-to trainer: everyone loved me and wanted to work with me. Great, right?

      It was, but I found training to be really exhausting, for the reasons you listed. It takes tons of concentration, reiteration, and focus: I would sometimes have a stiff neck for days afterward due to the strain of going back and forth between computer screens, especially during the pandemic when we had to jury-rig everything to be six feet apart!

      It is nice to hear my manager reminisce about my method of learning to scan the ticket as “a leaf drifting gently to the ground,” though!

      1. Missa Brevis*

        Oh god, same for me. Training is a very occasional job duty for me, except right now I’m in a three month stretch where I’m training folks every other week.

        I keep getting feedback about how good I am as a trainer, how patient, how easy to follow my explanations are, etc, and I’m struggling to find diplomatic responses because what I really want to say is “well thank goodness someone had a good time because I certainly didn’t”. But obviously I’m not going to say that because it’s not our new folks’ fault that I find the training process exhausting.

    12. StarryStarryNight*

      Do you have a good balance between what info is available in training documents and what you personally have to teach them? I really enjoy training new hires because, as some people have pointed out above, their questions cast a new light on our workplace practices and sometimes help improve them. Also, particularly with younger coworkers, it’s just so motivating to show them something or make a suggestion, then see them run with it and grow.

      But none of this would be half as much fun if I first had to do a dozen rounds of “for job X, we use software Y, which you can access using link Z”, so I’ve always made sure our training documents cover this kind of stuff and are regularly updated. In fact, I’ve found it helpful to tell a new coworker: “As part of your onboarding and training, can you please keep track of what works well and where there’s room for improvement?” Then after a month of whatever is a plausible amount of time for your specific job, sit down with them and see what you can learn. It will make training the next person easier, and so on and so on.

      2. Diatryma*

        I keep pushing to separate our policy documents and our training documents; they have different purposes and shouldn’t be the same thing.

    13. Jasmine*

      My favorite thing is that my trainee right now takes copious notes and after the session says, “I learn SO MUCH today!”

  5. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

    I often struggle to come up with platitudes, especially where the details are non-specific, as they often are in the work place. I’d like to start a thread for your best platitudes to be used in a variety of situations. An employee’s/colleague’s sick day, retirement, new job, family illness/death, loss of pet, etc. I hope it’ll be a resource for myself and other overthinkers to refer back to when needed.

    1. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      I’ll kick it off. For retirements, I usually go with “Best luck on your next adventure!”

    2. ThatGirl*

      Sick day – as in just an ordinary sick day? Probably nothing, or “Take care of yourself, feel better soon!”

      New job – “You’ll be missed! Best of luck on your new adventure!” (only if applicable haha)

      Family death – “I’m so sorry for your loss. May [his/her/their] memory be a blessing.” or “My condolences to you and your family.”

      1. English Rose*

        I kind of love “You’ll be missed”. I use it when it ain’t gonna be me who misses them, but someone else might.

      2. Packaged Frozen Lemon Zest*

        When my toxic manager finally left after 2.5 years I just signed his going away card “Good luck!” – the “you’re going to need it, because you have no idea what you’re doing!” was implied, lol.

    3. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      You can go for MILES with “best of luck,” “congratulations!” “have a wonderful time” “Hope it/you gets better soon,” and “I’m so sorry.”

      Bad news: I’m so sorry that happened to you.

      Good news: Congratulations! May you have the best of luck/May you have a wonderful time (depending on the type of good news)

      Someone is sick/injured: I’m so sorry. I hope they/you get better soon

    4. karriegrace*

      People struggle so much with condolences that they often just…don’t say anything! My Dad died in January and I just appreciated people who reached out in any way. ‘I’m so sorry for your loss’ is FINE. Just say something. There were people I didn’t hear from and it kinda felt bad.

      1. Healthcare Worker*

        I echo this! When my mother passed away many people said absolutely nothing, which really stung. I tried to think of it as they didn’t want to cause pain, but my thought was “really?”

        1. Ella Minnow Pea*

          When my dad died years ago, a colleague I hardly knew left a beautiful card on my desk with simple condolences. I was touched to the core and 20 years later, I have never forgotten his kindness. Say something, even if it’s just “Thinking of you.” It will mean more to them than you know.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            I got a sympathy card for my manager when his cat passed, and a “thinking of you” one when his current kitty had a very scary health crisis (he’s doing much better.) He still has the current on up on his desk. It can mean a lot.

      2. Sleepy in Grey*

        I echo this too. LOTS of people disappear when you’re grieving, and it’s the very worst timing. So isolating.

        Useful paragraphs to write or say:

        “I was/am very sorry to hear about your loss. It is hard to know what to say, but I just want to let you know that you’re in my/our thoughts.”
        “Hi [X], I imagine you’re having a challenging time at the moment, and I just wanted to let you know you’re in my/our thoughts.”

        Things not to do:
        Don’t text/message them out of the blue with just the question, “How are you?” This question can be exhausting to try and answer. Instead, say something like the examples above. (And if they start confiding in you about how they’re doing, you can take their lead then and get into that conversation about how they’re doing.)

    5. a few platitudes*

      For sick days, “Oh no! Feel better soon!” or “Sorry to hear that! Get some rest!” Maybe also “Let me know if there’s anything I can cover while you’re out” if I’m on their team.

      For a new job (if it’s a colleague leaving your office), “We’ll miss you! Best of luck in your new position–I know you’ll do great.” Or you can make it slightly more personal by replacing the first sentence with “We’ll miss you and your [snarky office memes/copier wizardry/delicious baked goods]!”

      For a new job (if it’s a new colleague joining your office), “We’re so glad to have you here! I’m excited to work with you.”

      For deaths, miscarriages, or other tough situations, “I hope you are finding moments of peace in this difficult time.”

      For a non-specified family emergency, “I hope all goes well for you and your family.”

    6. mreasy*

      “Sending my best to you and your family at this time.” (for emergency)
      “I’m so sorry for your loss.” (Always approriate imo. For a pet you can also say something like “You gave Fuzzy so much love and such a great life.”)
      “So sorry, I hope you feel better soon” (for illness) and/or “I hope you have a mild case” (for COVID) and you can always mention something about the bug going around to be extra chatty.
      Retirement/new job/new house/etc: “Congratulations, I’m so happy for you!”

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Sick day: “Sorry to hear it, rest up and feel better soon!”
      Retirement: “We’ll all miss you, but I’m so glad you get to relax and enjoy some new adventures!”
      New job: “Best of luck! We’ll miss you around here. (And if true: “I’d love to keep in touch.”)
      Family illness, mild: “Sorry to hear it, I hope they feel better soon.”
      Family illness, serious: “So sorry to hear about that. (Sometimes: “if you need any time off to care for them, let me know/reach out to HR.”) Can also include: “remember our EAP is available if you need that kind of help or support.
      Family death: “I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you have the comfort of some wonderful memories and all the support you need in this time.”
      Pet death: “I’m so sorry for your loss. [Pet] was very lucky to have such a loving home with you.”

    8. knitcrazybooknut*

      For general grief: Grief is just love with nowhere to go.

      For pet death: We never have enough time with them. They had a great life with you.

    9. CherryBlossom*

      Hello fellow overthinker! The good thing to remember is that people often aren’t expecting much from their coworkers unless you’re particularly close, so just the standard stock phrases are more than enough. Here’s my go-to list of phrases for common yet vague situations:

      Sick day: Oh no! Hope you feel better soon!
      Retirement/New Job: Good luck on your next adventure! You’ll be missed! (Good to say if you won’t miss them personally, since it’s not a lie)
      Lay-offs: I’m so sorry; you’ll be so missed around here.
      Family/Pet loss: I’m so sorry for your loss.
      Family illness for light illnesses (cold, flu, food poisoning): Hope they feel better soon!
      Family illness for serious illnesses: I hope they’re on the upswing soon. (Upswing implies the same thing as “get better soon”, but without the expectation of healing/cures/recovery if you’re not sure.)

    10. ArlynPage*

      This is one of the few times I use chatGPT. I ask it to give me an example message and then I always end up re-writing it to sound more like me, but it really helps me to have a starting point.

    11. Kes*

      Sick: Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon
      Someone leaving the job: It was great working with you (if true). You’ll be missed (if true – note this doesn’t necessarily have to mean missed by you). All the best with whatever’s next
      Family death: I’m so sorry for your loss

    12. Busy Middle Manager*

      I think you need to find someone to emulate. This may sound ridiculously random and specific, but I had been watching reruns of Murder She Wrote and stole some lines from Angela Lansbury. Why? Because I am very introverted but like people. That show has her constantly mingling with new people and making small talk, navigating board rooms, police departments, restaurant openings, art shows, concerts, cocktail parties, theater intermission, and the likes. I also struggle with those platitudes and generic phrases, so I stole a few from her and they work well in the real world and also make you seem level headed :-/

    13. RagingADHD*

      I actually used to read etiquette books like Miss Manners to get ideas, because there are so many situations where you want to say something gracious but the actual content isn’t necessarily personal. I prefer short and classic.

      Sick day: “Sorry to hear that, take care!”
      Retirement: “Best wishes!”
      New job: “Congratulations!”
      Family illness / death: “I’m sorry to hear that” or “My condolences on your loss.” Followed by: “I’m happy to cover X for you if that would help.”

      1. RW*

        I always used to find the term condolences overly stiff, but I’ve fallen in love now! I’m a GP, and I often call family if one of my patients passes away, and straight up saying “I just heard the news and wanted to offer my condolences” does everything imo
        (depending on whether I know the family as well as the patient, this may turn into a proper conversation, or it may well end there…)

    14. Can't remember my username*

      Can I recommend the book “There is no good card for this”, its useful as a general book to build how to respond to people when bad things happen in their lives, and at the back, there are essentially cheat sheets of what to say when things aren’t great.

      That said:
      “I’m so sorry”
      “Congratulations”
      “How are you feeling?”
      “Good luck (on your next adventure etc)”
      will get you a long way for most things.

      Keeping it simple really is the best way.

    15. Lbj*

      When people share about a person or pet they’ve lost, I like to say “thank you for sharing them with us” or that I liked getting to learn or hear about them. And if it seems true, “I bet they were so proud of you” (for a person) and “I bet they were so happy to be with you (for a pet)

    16. beware the shoebill*

      When a coworker leaves/retires, I usually pull out this quote by Ursula Le Guin:
      “The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible that it does not exist.”

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        This is weird. Retirement is not unimaginable, and casting your workplace, or the working world in general, as Omelas is doubly weird. Even if people don’t recognize the context, and not everyone will, they’ll find it odd.

      2. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        That would elicit a big ol’ eyeroll and an “Okey dokey, then.”

    17. Sleepy in Grey*

      Having dealt with serious illness, I stay away from saying “feel better soon”, “get well soon”, “I hope you are feeling better”, and so on. Why? Because…often, ill people are not going to feel better soon. I know the words are very well meant, but unwittingly you’re putting a burden on the ill person – either to grin and bear it and say, “thanks!” (while privately thinking, “I am not going to be better soon, but I’m too tired or self conscious to say that”) or to put energy into explaining that they can’t expect to feel better soon. Either way, you’re giving them a small communication challenge/task, and if they’re ill they could be profoundly tired, so an extra task could be a burden. Plus, they could be getting the same kind of communications repeatedly from different people, and that really adds up.

      You could try instead something like:

      “I’m sorry to hear you’re sick – I hope you’re able to get some helpful rest and TLC.”
      “I’m sorry to hear that you’re sick. Sending our best wishes from the office.”

  6. Hiding My Belly M-F*

    I started a new job two weeks ago, which I applied for in February. I’m currently 21 weeks pregnant and have not disclosed this yet at work. My boss isn’t at this location but we’ve built a good professional relationship and speak frequently as I onboard.

    So, when is the best time to break the news and err… how? I’m not as worried about the job protection part but I’m in communications. We’re a very relationship-based. They were very eager to fill this role so I also worry about my onsite relationships. I may have disclosed it at the time I accepted the offer but I had been laid off for several months and didn’t want anything to hinder actually getting the job.

    1. But maybe not*

      I would want to break the news sooner than later. The longer it goes, the more awkward it gets. I think it’s okay to acknowledge when you tell them that you haven’t been able to find the right time. Do you have an idea of your maternity leave plans? That can help guide the conversation so you aren’t dwelling on the “I’ve known awhile but hadn’t told you…” part.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        If you want a white lie to help you smooth the “I knew and didn’t tell you” part, vaguely mention that you needed additional tests recently to ensure that everything was OK with the pregnancy and are happy to report now that things are determined to be fine. A reasonable person will drop the urge to be irritated at not knowing at hiring time.

        1. But maybe not*

          It might not even be a lie – there are plenty of people who don’t wish to tell others until the anatomy scan at 20 weeks.

      2. JSPA*

        Alison has suggested that it’s fine to wait, and many comments have pointed out that if you don’t need to explain nausea or smell sensitivity, it’s often wise to wait a bit longer. Depends in part how much leave you get; how much of it you plan to take in the first weeks (if it’s divisible); if you think you’d actually feel better working a few days a week, rather than full leave (etc etc).

        If you anticipate any negative feelings (not that they’d express them discriminatorily, but just some vague sense of “ah, heck”) there’s,

        “I wanted to let you know the happy news that I’m indeed pregnant– which we thought had been ruled out–not suffering some progressive disease. We’re over the moon!”

    3. Star-Bellied Sneetch*

      Absolutely do it sooner rather than later! And honestly, you can skip right over the “I had known but hadn’t told you” part because it isn’t really relevant. Treat this like a normal maternity leave conversation. “I want to let you know that I’m expecting a baby, and I anticipate going on maternity leave around [date]. I plan to take X weeks of leave, so I’ll be returning to the office on [date]. I’m committed to preparing well so that my leave will be as smooth as possible for you and the team.” (Obviously you don’t have to follow that exact script, but those are the main points.) Given your situation, you might add something like “I’d like to seek your guidance on what I should prioritize during the time before my leave.”

      2. M2*

        I would look over benefits and your policies first and tell them right away. If you’re in the US since you haven’t been there for a year you are not protected with FMLa. The sooner you tell them I feel the more they will be likely to work with you on leave and coverage when you are gone.

        I have friends and have hired someone who went in mat leave after only being in a role 4 months. I had to go to bat for them with HR because we offer 6 months of paid leave on top of whatever vacation or sick you have banked but at the time I believe you had to be here a year maybe 10 months.

        I had another friend (a few years ago) whose company only offered 4 weeks paid on top of whatever she could bank because she had not been on the job a year so she had to go back after about 6 weeks which was not ideal. another who was offered 12 weeks but all had to be unpaid. I feel more and more companies are more understanding now but it might mean you can have the time but it is unpaid.

        The sooner you tell them and find out the leave policies the better. Look over and read all benefits and policies. I would be way more likely to go to bat for someone who was open and honest with me instead of someone who waited weeks or months to tell me upon hire (as long as it was at the time to tell if they waited a few months because of waiting that’s totally fine).

        Good luck and congrats!

        1. ShortTermDisability*

          If you have short term disability coverage it will usually kick in for maternity leave so you’d get paid after the first week. However, eligibility is usually based on a combination of the amount of time you’ve worked at a company and the amount of time the insurer thinks is medically reasonable for the initiating incident.

          For example, I had an emergency hospitalization about 15 months after starting a job. I was eligible for a maximum of 6 weeks of short term disability leave (including the one week waiting period for which I used sick time) no matter my medical condition. The insurance company got all of my medical records from the hospital and decided that medically I needed all 6 weeks, but had they decided I only needed 3 that’s all I would have gotten.

          My best friend, who had been working at her company for quite a few years, got 3 months of short term disability when her daughter was born. She could have taken another month unpaid by their policy, but that wouldn’t have qualified for the disability payments.

          Your mileage may vary and chances are good if you’re new you wouldn’t qualify for a very long paid maternity leave, but it doesn’t hurt to ask.

      3. M2*

        That might actually rub some people the wrong way especially if they have only been there for a few months. The company may not provide all that leave and if in the US you aren’t protected for FMLA so I personally would look at the policies and benefits first then tell them and ask about parental leave coverage. If it’s in the handbook anyone gets X weeks paid great you know the answer, if it’s vague or they say after X months of service you get X weeks of paid leave then you need to have the information so you are better able to advocate for yourself.

      4. goddessoftransitory*

        This: this is a normal and happy life occurrence, not some sneaky, shady thing you’re being forced to reveal. Treat it as the former and any decent boss will as well.

      5. Quinalla*

        Yup, I agree with this, just schedule a meeting or tack on to your next one-on-one and have it very matter of fact. Don’t talk about how far along you are, just say when expected maternity leave is and how long you plan to take.

        I’d look into any company policies/handbooks first and then ask about that stuff too. If you have HR, have a conversation with them next about how soon you need to get baby on insurance after birth (if applicable), etc.

        If someone does have the audacity to ask why you didn’t tell them when getting hired, I’d just say you weren’t ready to disclose until now. There are people who wait far longer to disclose even though they are obviously pregnant and some who waiting much longer during lockdowns when WFH as no one knew.

    4. Do as I say...*

      Don’t do what I did! I was waiting to give the news after a big event. Then I had pregnancy complications and had to tell my bosses that I would miss the big event, due to my pregnancy that they didn’t know about.
      Eventually I had a healthy baby and eventually my bosses trusted me again, but I would recommend telling them soon.

    5. Dandylions*

      Just share it now if you are comfortable. I eant d to let you know I’m pregnant and expected due date is date.

      While 22 weeks is a bit later than most it’s not egregiously so.

  7. TechWorker*

    I have an employee with imposter syndrome. They are not a strong performer but have shown promise in some areas and they are above the level where we would actively consider a PIP or managing someone out. There’s other mental health stuff going on for them too. We are trying to support them as best as possible – but I do think they are smart and capable and to be honest – might well do better in a different job/company where they can excel rather than being mediocre (& their internal monologue then telling them they’re useless). But if someone is already suffering from imposter syndrome and a feeling like they don’t belong, any indication from us that they might want to consider other roles is going to make things worse…! Any way to phrase this that doesn’t sound like we’re about to let them go?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      I wouldn’t, it’s really not your place. If they’re doing well enough to avoid a PIP, then I think you should mind your own business in that regard. If their insecurity is causing problems for their coworkers, then that’s another story, but you’d want to have the conversation about not burdening their coworkers with their personal feelings, not about them going elsewhere.

      2. Ready for the weekend*

        Same. Does your office offer any EAP services or encourage her to pursue a coaching service?

    2. ecnaseener*

      This is tough because, well, they’re not a strong performer and you don’t think they’re a good fit for your team. So if they’re having feelings of “I talked my way into this job that I’m not actually good at, people are expecting me to be more competent than I actually am, this sucks” is that really imposter syndrome or is that a person being honest with themself?

      But I guess either way, your approach should be the same — total honesty, no sugarcoating. (“Radical candor” may be useful?) If you sugarcoat, they’re not going to believe you when you say you honestly think they could excel at XYZ.

      1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

        This. I think that being straightforward about “stuff you could work on”, paired with “stuff you’re good at”, might undercut the internal monologue a little, because they have evidence that you will in fact tell them if something isn’t working. Asking for this kind of feedback has done wonders for my imposter syndrome, because it frees me from thinking “omg everyone is secretly thinking terrible things”. If people don’t give me the feedback I have explicitly asked for, that’s on them, not me. I do stress that I need both kinds of feedback, but but it’s truly helped.

    3. Tio*

      Is it really imposter syndrome? It kind of sounds like they AREN’T suited for the role, but you just want to believe them into doing better. If they’re just skirting the edges of being put on a PIP, then you want to be upfront and clear with them on their position and what you want to see from them. Ther may be some imposter syndrome or other issues at play, but the best thing you can do for them is be honest. If the truth about their position means that they can’t handle doing it or start doing worse, there really isn’t much you can do about it

      1. TechWorker*

        Yes, this is a fair comment.

        I think the reality is that they are not a strong performer but they are doing well enough and if they were happy in the role we would be happy to keep them, keep going with training etc. We do provide feedback and are not going over the top trying to make them believe they’re doing amazingly or anything like that.. but the imposter syndrome is that they see themselves as completely useless, feel as if everyone else knows they’re useless and they are offering no value at all. Which is *not* true.

        1. Tio*

          You can tell them a version of that then – “We believe you’re doing ok in this role and can continue to improve and contribute, but we want to make sure you’re also happy in the role. Is this something you want to continue on with?” You can’t talk them out of imposter syndrome if they have it. So if they are struggling with feeling like they don’t fit, the kinder thing might be to help them find a role they think they do better at. Better that than let their stress over not doing well enough – real or perceived – make them unhappy.

          If you do talk to them, try and have some areas to improve but areas you also think they’re doing good at. The harder it is for you to come up with any of these, the more telling about whether they might not be in the right role.

      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        Yeah this is not even imposter syndrome. We’re not mincing words. This is low or mediocre performance.

        Imposter sydrome is being a good or great performer but thinking you’re not good.

        So this is a false dichotomy that has been created. As I’ve said before, feeling bad about your performance can be a good think when you are not performing well, and it probably applies here. Their gut is telling them to improve

        1. TechWorker*

          Okay – I was using it to also apply to ‘I am ok performer but I think I am absolutely terrible’ – which I think is ‘within reasonable usage’ but feel free to disagree :)

    4. jasmine*

      This might be more applicable to anxiety than imposter syndrome, but considering both warp your view of reality…

      I think being honest is the best thing you can do. Pretending things are great when they aren’t is counterproductive. The key to these things is being grounded, and you can’t really turn off the voice in your head saying, “they’re secretly not telling me things to spare my feelings” if that voice is, well, right.

    5. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Used sparingly, I have had success sometimes with framing a person’s performance against their peers’ (a group of peers, like the group of my direct reports or all the employees in that specific role, NOT “Bob does this right, why can’t you?”).

      Sometimes it’s a person who isn’t necessarily doing anything wrong by providing me status updates, but they update me constantly and I’m trying to better explain that they’re an outlier on it and I don’t need so many updates – “you probably don’t realize but you send me updates about 4x more than anyone else on the team. I appreciate being in the loop but I need you to wait to send me 3 updates at once, or, the bar for what I need updates on is a higher than you think it is”.

      In a different example, closer to your issue, an junior employee really perked up once I explained they shouldn’t be comparing themselves to their most senior peers with 10 and 20 years’ experience in the field. The comparison was making their imposter syndrome worse because they kept aiming too high and failing. A big reframing conversation was a game changer, because I realized they were frustrated with not producing the same level of work. I didn’t need them to be producing that same level of work, I needed them to get better at more basic building blocks of the job and to trust that I was assigning them the kind of work that would send them on their way to becoming as good as their senior-level colleagues. (I thought I had been explaining this all along and they weren’t hearing it, which is a whole other thread).

      They are never going to be a superstar, I can tell, but it helped them to bypass some of the roadblocks that were holding them back from better work.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you! This helps, the middle paragraph is maybe something to stress. They do work with someone who’s been 20 years on the job and can be a bit prickly when their advice isn’t understood & taken first time, so that definitely doesn’t help.

    6. RagingADHD*

      What is the work-related problem you are trying to solve for?

      Them having imposter syndrome is not your problem. It is not your job to make sure they are emotionally well adjusted and content with their life, that’s way too personal for you to intrude on. So what performance issues or team relationship issues need to be addressed?

      Are they whining and spewing negativity? Are they failing to improve on job duties that they need to become independent on? Are they sucking the air out of the team caretaking their emotions? Focus on behaviors that affect the work and the team, and give them actionable feedback on what outward behavior needs to change.

      Their internal monologue is their own business.

      1. TechWorker*

        So yes, there’s time spent by their direct manager (not me) reassuring them. But their imposter syndrome also comes out in other ways, if they are spiralling they become *less* competent at the job because the lack of confidence means they start to ask questions they do infact know the answer to, which impacts other people on the team. But yes, agree should try to separate ‘what we can control’ (work results) and ‘what we can’t’.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think the more matter of fact you and the direct manager can be about what they are doing well and what specific skills they need to work on, the better. So maybe you need to approach it like an informal PIP by giving them metrics they can use for themselves to track their improvement.

          Be sure to tell them when they are doing well and what was good about it, as well as giving them specific actions to help them improve. The more concrete the feedback, the better. Then the manager can point them to the metrics rather than giving vague personal reassurance.

    7. Qwerty*

      This is not imposter syndrome. You describe them as mediocre. Of course this person thinks they don’t belong! It sounds like the role is not a good fit. Not performing well really takes a toll on someone, especially if they like the work that they are not succeeding at.

      You have to really careful when reassuring them so that you don’t paint too rosy of a picture of their performance in trying to combat the problems that need to be worked on. Its also possible that their performance could get worse and land them in the PIP area – at that point it’ll get really sticky if you told them 6months prior not to worry about a PIP. Or the company could hit an unexpected bump or restructuring that causes layoffs that impact your team, when you might have to decide to let them go in order to keep those who do fit the existing role.

  8. need clothing advice*

    Hey all! My (relatively new) job got us baseball tickets — any suggestions as to what to wear? It’s Texas so it’ll be a million degrees outside. We’re a fairly casual culture (nobody is wearing a suit and tie to work, we occasionally swear, etc.) but I don’t know if showing up in a tank top and jeans is too much.

    1. Now retired*

      If it’s going to be hot, I would wear light pants and not jeans. And if I wore a tank top, I definitely have a light shirt to go over it for the sun.

      1. Artemesia*

        Jeans are too hot — but acceptable if you want to wear them — I’d be wearing something ver light weight like linen or even something like rayon boho pant. Tank top with a lightweight shirt as a sort of jacket over it. this protects from the sun and you can always take it off if you feel it is appropriate once you are there.

    3. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      Is this something they have done before? If so, ask a coworker!
      But otherwise, if jeans are normally acceptable, I would 100% wear them. And you can always find a lightweight jersey to wear over a tank top and adjust accordingly once you are there. I can’t imagine that anyone would look down on your wearing sports apparel to a sports game.

    4. Forest Hag*

      Hello from Texas! :) I think a sleeveless top or a t-shirt and longer shorts would be fine. I have been to baseball games during the summer here with my workplace, and it’s just too hot and humid to wear much of anything else, especially if you are in some of the more southern cities. I would wear something like a basic, solid color t-shirt and bermuda shorts. And definitely wear a hat.

      1. MikeM_inMD*

        But do not wear a hat that will block the view of anyone behind you!

        And it might not be wise to wear anything with the logo of a rival team or the visiting team, unless you are passionate about them and are willing to put up with jokes and harassment.

    5. Alisaurus*

      Do you have a coworker you trust to ask? If the job has done this before, I’m sure they’ll have suggestions!

      I know office cultures are all different, but my casual team would absolutely be okay with someone wearing shorts (as long as they’re not daisy dukes or something lol) and a sleeveless top if we went to a game together. We’d all be about comfort over looking “professional” when going to a scorching outdoor event.

    6. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      Could you check with your co-workers to see what they plan on wearing? I’m thinking the ones who’ve been there a while may be able to steer you in the right direction. I would think you’d be perfectly OK with a sleeveless top (I wouldn’t wear spaghetti straps, but that’s just me) and shorts (probably not overly short). Just my two cents! :)

    7. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Definitely ask a coworker, but everywhere I have worked that did casual outings people dressed appropriately for the outing. Meaning neat, clean, not showing too much skin, but what one might wear if you were taking yourself to the game on your own. Meaning if it was hot, probably not a tank, but definitely a short sleeved tee and longer cargo/bermuda type shorts or a lightweight casual skirt. Jeans sound miserable in the heat to me but would probably be professionally fine.

      1. need clothing advice*

        It’s in the afternoon — not sure what the rest of the org is doing, but my team has decided to reschedule any meetings + work remotely that morning before heading to the game.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          In that case I’d wear whatever is comfortable, but avoid colors of the visiting team.

    9. My Brain is Exploding*

      I have found that lightweight pants are better than shorts; something about the sun beating on my bare legs is very uncomfortable. The last baseball game that I went to wearing shorts I wound up covering my legs with a towel I’d brought to sit on.

    10. Sparkle Llama*

      This is only an option for people who wear skirts, but I am in a business casual office that leans more towards casual and most of us use athletic skorts for this purpose – think ladies golf. If I have something to do outside for part of the day I will wear the skort to the office and whatever I have outside. They are also incredibly comfortable in my experience.

    11. Panicked*

      Hello fellow Texan! I’ve been to many a baseball game here. Whatever you wear, just be prepared to sweat. I have worn everything from jeans and a t-shirt with a ball cap to a sundress to a wide leg linen jumpsuit. Wear a hat, it really does help!

    12. BaseballGame*

      My company has done baseball games a few times and everyone just wore normal/casual off the clock clothes. I personally wore shorts and a team shirt. No one cared or said anything and everyone else was similarly dressed.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Agreed – my boyfriend’s workplace occasionally offers a bunch of tickets for a group of them to go and everyone just shows up with what they’d normally wear to a ball game. The last one we went to I wore shorts and a team shirt, pretty sure my boyfriend wore a t shirt and shorts too.

    13. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think you are over thinking this because its tickets from work. Wear what you would normally wear to a baseball game. T-shirt or tank and shorts. Big hat and lots of sunscreen. This is not a work thing everyone else will be wearing similar outfits and no one is going to think twice.

    14. Ashley*

      If you have anything with the team name on it you can typically lean more casual. Given the temps a tank top with a cheap jersey (the knock off style not the full heavy ones) left open might work. If you do want a tank top I tend to lean towards having something I can wear over it if I feel I need to get dressier.
      I have had sales classes followed by a game where a lot of people where dressed up for the day and changed to really casual for the game so the office dress code doesn’t always hold. That said if clients or customers are going with you I tend to dress a little fancier then if it is just my co-workers or if I my sales person is taking me to the game.

    15. Dust Bunny*

      Nice jeans are probably OK but for weather conditions, if I were you I’d go with light pants and a lightweight woven shirt, both to look nicer and because wovens are cooler than knits.

      –Houston

    16. theletter*

      Loose shorts (or a skirt/dress) in a light fabric that reach to about your knee, plus a top in a light fabric that completely covers any top underwear you choose to wear. You’ll want the long shorts because it’s very easy to burn the tops of your thighs when sitting outside for long periods of time.

      You’ll want a hat that shades your face, and sunglasses! Even on a cloudy day, the long exposure can be difficult. Consider getting a baseball cap supporting the home team, for comfort and camaraderie!

      Jeans are fine for games but torture in hot weather. There’s lots of natural and synthetic fabrics that do great in hot sticky weather. You’ll want to pick something that fits loose so you can feel any breeze that comes your way!

    17. Harrowhark*

      Fellow Texan here. The key question is: What stadium will this be in?

      If you’re going to see the Texas Rangers, bring a sweater because they keep Globe Life Field freezing in summer.

      If you’re going to see the Houston Astros, dress in shorts and a tank top / tee shirt because even when they close the roof, it’s still warm in there (the roof doesn’t seal completely).

      If you’re going to see one of the minor league teams in an open stadium, wear shorts and a tank top/ tee shirt.

      I’ve been to Rangers games with co-workers both in the old, open stadium and in the new, can-be-closed Globe Life stadium. Only the men at the highest C-levels wore anything close to business clothes, and even then it was lightweight khakis and a polo shirt or lightweight button-down shirt. Everyone else was in shorts or jeans and t-shirts (or tanks for the women).

      1. need clothing advice*

        Thank you so much for this! It is Globe Life Field and I didn’t even know it could be closed. I’ve literally never been to a baseball game before :)

        1. Lady_Lessa*

          I’m not a baseball fan, but it might make sense if there’s time before the big game to catch a minor league one first. You are closer to the field and it seems more interesting.

      2. Somewhere in Texas*

        A+ comment here. Recently went to 2 Astros games. One was with work and I wore shorts and a sleeveless top with no regrets because *fire and sun emojis*

      3. PropJoe*

        “ If you’re going to see the Texas Rangers, bring a sweater because they keep Globe Life Field freezing in summer.”

        This is much better than how it was in 2014 when I bought a super cheap ticket to a July home game and didn’t realize until I got to the stadium that I had signed up to sit behind third base for a mid-day game. Never again. Most miserable game experience I can ever remember having.

    18. Mitchell Hundred*

      I’ve never been to Texas, but based on what I know of baseball games I think you should wear a tuxedo. That’ll make you stand out on video in case you need the people making Curb Your Enthusiasm to provide you with an alibi.

    19. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      We just attended a minor league baseball game with my division last week – it was almost 90 out, and I wore a plain t-shirt, loose cloth (they felt kind of like cotton or linen) pants, Converse and a sun hat. Shorts were specifically allowed, but I don’t wear shorts myself.

    20. Policy Wonk*

      Sleeveless top and nice shorts, topped by a short-sleeved team shirt that buttons, unbuttoned. Will look good as you arrive and if it’s too hot just take off the over-shirt. And wear a team baseball cap or other hat if you are sitting in the sun. And if carry-ins are allowed, bring water!

    21. Blarg*

      Pay attention to team colors! For example, you wouldn’t want to show up in navy blue to a Yankees-Red Sox game at Fenway unless you were doing it very much on purpose.

      1. House On The Rock*

        This is very good advice. I go to a lot of (college) sporting events where I’m very much decked out in my team’s colors and insignia, but I do give the side-eye to non-fans who randomly show up looking like they may be rooting for the opposing team. It looks like you are going to a Rangers’ game, so you could either wear their colors if you have something light weight in them, or do basic khaki/white/grey. The other thing that can be a bit fun is wearing, say, your own college logo, or a totally random team’s stuff from a different sport, if you are a fan of someone else.

        1. need clothing advice*

          Thanks for the advice! And your username is one of my favorite places :)

      2. Tessie you're the only, only, only*

        I think this is good advice for someone new to a company as it shows that you’re part of the community (and probably at least a plurality of your coworkers are going to support the home team). But there’s a lot of color overlap among teams so don’t go crazy, just cheer when your colleagues do. :-) Another option is to borrow or thrift a Texas Rangers cap – then your clothes become irrelevant.

        Since you’re new to baseball, OP, I’d suggest checking out MLB’s Intro to Baseball video (short) on YouTube. And if you tell your team it’s your first game you’ll probably have fan self-identify and share some info with you.

        1. need clothing advice*

          Thanks for the advice — I’ll probably enjoy the game more if I vaguely know what’s going on :)

    22. Quinalla*

      Yeah, ask a coworker. At my work, folks wear shorts & tank tops/muscle shirt to things like this np and no one bats an eye, but your work may be different. I have on several occasions ask someone at work expected dress code for something and no one has ever acted like I was weird for asking. Even if they do when you ask, oh well! Better to have a quick slightly awkward conversation then show up in a tank top and jeans and everyone else is wearing formal wear, haha.

  9. A big sigh*

    I think I am seriously loosing it. I work in an open concept office with cubicles. Our cubicles are in groups of 4 with a high wall around each group. Two of my group usually travel, so that leaves me and “Casey” alone in our area. First I must say Casey is very nice and we get along but have VERY different work styles.

    For example she gave up smoking and tobacco but constantly phlegm coughs (can’t be helped I get it, but it’s hard to eat hearing it all day). She claims her cough is getting toxins out of her body.

    We can use our phone for personal use – instead of texting or a quick call she does talk to text – planning friend meet ups, organizing a volunteer position at her kids school, “arguing” with her brother, catching up with her boyfriend, plans for the weekend

    Casey listens to an online podcasts, music, news programs and self help books at top volume and “communicates” with the authors. Occasionally karaoke is part of the communication

    Yes our office is VERY casual to the point of fuzzy slippers in the office and WFH is encouraged. I don’t know if this is from a beverage, a prescription or even just personality but she constantly burps and farts. I don’t mean oops excuse me- it’s more like whoa a big one is coming….all day long.

    To top it off she has conversations with herself. She’ll research minor medical stuff, like a common cold and discuss it; she doesn’t agree with a new company policy and argues in her head/ out loud.

    Casey and I get along well and talk socially, even grab lunch but this is driving me nuts. I don’t want to say anything as maybe there are legitimate reasons….. Heck I’m not perfect by any means and I’m sure I have annoying habits. I want to be a friend. I don’t want to be rude or uncaring. I’m definitely more quiet and reserved where Casey is bubbly and outgoing. I feel like the book nerd and a ping pong ball are sharing a space. I’ve tried headphones and more. There is no way for me to move desks. I’m not looking to say anything. Any ideas what I, me only, can do to coexist?

    1. Elsewise*

      This is a fully “do it in your head only and absolutely never tell anyone”, but one thing I’ve done in the past with annoying colleagues is every time they do [annoying habit] I do [inconspicuous thing that might make me happy]. Think of it like a drinking game but with water (or coffee or whatever you usually drink at your desk). Something like “every time she burps, I eat an M&M.” As long as you don’t make a big production out of it, no one will notice, and it’s a nice little way of rewarding yourself for keeping your cool while making a game out of someone’s habits.

    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Loop earplugs. If you get the “Quiet” ones (intended for sleep), they block a lot of sound. Not 100% block. I describe it like sounding like someone else making noise is at a distance under water. Could take the edge off.

      1. Morag*

        I second the Loop earplugs – not traditional ear-pluggy looking, but work really well at dampening sounds.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      If WFH is encouraged…I’d WFH. Or see if I could talk Casey into doing more WFH.

    4. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      This would drive me bonkers. I have a co-worker who is very, very loud, and talks all day long. I’ve just tried to train myself to tune her out. You could also just ignore the loud pronouncements of an upcoming burp, and attempts at inane conversation. Maybe she’ll just stop? I doubt it though. Could you WFH on alternate days so at least you don’t have to deal with it two days in a row?

    5. duinath*

      I would stop grabbing lunch with her, so you get a period of time in the day where she is not around. Give yourself a break from her, so to speak.

      If you’ve tried noise cancelling headphones for the noise, and electric fans (I suppose other scents overlayered could also be an option, but you’d risk bumping onto someone’s allergies) for the farts, and you don’t want to alter her behaviour at all, this sounds like it comes down to your mental fortitude (managing to stay calm and not too annoyed or grossed out) now, and I think getting a break from her in the day could help with that.

      Don’t eat lunch with her, don’t eat lunch in the office, make lunch your little oasis of peace in the day.

      (If it were me, I would say something to her, tbh.)

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, if she’s this casual, I don’t know that it would cause a whole mess of drama to ask her to take the personal calls outside or remind her she doesn’t have to inform you of every oncoming burp.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      I once had a co worker/ podmate who would give commentary on his day. I finally started replying to him. When he asked, I said “You’re talking out loud and I am the only person nearby. I assume you are talking to me.” It finally ended when he announced, “Looks like my prescription is ready at the pharmacy” and I replied, “Remember, if it lasts for more than four hours, call a doctor.”

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d pick just one or two things to set boundaries on. Like – the non-work related broadcasting needs to stop. “Casey, I know that listening to things is helpful to you when you’re working, but I am unable to concentrate when there’s music or broadcasting going on. Please use headphones to listen to your content.” Similarly, “I am having trouble focusing on my work when you are having a personal call or dictating your texts. Please step out if it’s going to be more than a minute or two.”

      Fuzzy slippers are not affecting your ability to work but the yammering is.

      I’d probably try to tune out the self-talk and the flatulence, considering them a lost cause. And if you can train her out of the phone calls and radio stuff, then your next campaign could be to respond to her self-talk with a pause and a “Oh, I’m sorry Casey, were you talking to me?” (not joining the conversation … just acknowledging it and naming it as something you could hear but didn’t know why it was happening because you’re so busy with work.)

    8. WellRed*

      I don’t think anyone should ever be afraid to tell a coworker to use earbuds or headphones to listen to music or podcasts yet it comes up here with such frequency. “Can you use your headphones?” Every time. She’s singing? “Can you dial it down a bit?” She discusses medical issues? “TMI.”

    9. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Can you ask her when she is doing things like talk to text to do it elsewhere as its distracting. Ask her to please wear headphones to listen to podcasts, etc or to turn it down so you can’t hear it.
      If she is talking to herself can you pipe up and say “what’s that?” and when she says she’s talking to herself just ask if she could be more quiet because when she does that you think she is trying to get your attention.
      There’s not much that can be done about the burps and farts, except to ask her to please not announce it!

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        This at the very least, why are the other comments so nice! This is a case where being traditionally nice doesn’t help! OP you’ve hurt yourself by letting this drag on so long. You gotta start speaking up yesterday, it will only be awkward because you’ve let it slide so long, but will only get worse. Also constant bodily functions are now normal, at that level….I’m more outspoken so I’d probably be like “have you checked yourself for food allergies.” If you’ve ever had to live/work in closed spaces with others, their problems become yours so it’s not as out of line as some think

    10. theletter*

      Maybe you could try a ‘Sometimes the office feels a little toooo much like just hanging at home, and it’s hard to get into the work zone. Do you ever feel that way?’

      or just the old ‘I love working with you but sometimes the noise knocks me out of the work zone. Also, friend to friend, the singing and bodily functions are a bit more audible than you might realize. Do you want me to give you a heads-up if it’s too loud?’

      I wonder if Casey might also benefit from looking into work that’s a bit more people-interactive? It seems like their personality is little bit more ‘meetings-y’ and less ‘quiet-work-grinding-y’

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        ‘Sometimes the office feels a little toooo much like just hanging at home, and it’s hard to get into the work zone. Do you ever feel that way?’ – this is very passive aggressive. Be direct, there’s a lot of good suggestions in this thread.

    11. Someone stole my croissant*

      Hmm. You might just be introverted. I’m an ambivert, but just reading your story made me socially tired. Get away for a few minutes to recharge every once in a while. Don’t eat lunch with her(seriously, she probably is exhausting to eat with). Practice mindfulness.
      Ask her to wear earbuds, or gift them to her and get really offended whenever she doesn’t wear them :)
      Consider working from home. You’re able to control your environment more, unless you have really talkative kids.

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        I think you’ll have to talk to her – cheerful and matter of fact is the tone. “Of course she would be upset to find out she’s been bothering you” – that’s the base assumption I would operate on (If it’s not true, then at least you have done the base work of assuming good intentions.)

        I speak from experience – it’s not going to stop bothering you, and this cacophony from her area sounds taxing for all but a literal saint. You’ll feel better for saying something, and I second the recommendation for splitting it into actionable items (she can control her noise level, but the farts may be involuntary.) If she reveals herself to be unreasonable, that’s when you go up the chain/to HR. Unfortunately she may be a bit unhappy with you, but that’s a her problem.

        1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

          oh no! Nesting fail. Meant to reply to original post. It comes for us all.

    13. NaoNao*

      If you look up “Cary Tennis Salon + Worst Coworker Ever” (the description of that coworker is in part “Yowls, meows, spins, chews, farts, warbles, whistles, flails, dances, burps, twirls and throws food. … She sings little “la-la-la” type songs .”–sound familiar?) that column might help!
      For now I’d maybe do the Alison thing of make it about you “Fartina, this is totally my thing, but I’m very sensitive to X, could you keep it down over there?” or similar.

    14. Quinalla*

      Top volume podcasts with headphones or without? If without, you are 100% fine to ask Casey to use headphones. As far as talking to the podcast/author, can you in the moment say “Hey, not sure if you realize, but you are talking out loud to your podcast/book and it is very distracting!” Also, I’d ask if she could do less voice to text at it is distracting. I wouldn’t ask her to completely stop (maybe) but at least ask if she could do it less. If this feels like too much to ask, pick the most annoying and ask her to stop?

      The coughing, eh not much you can do, talking to herself, maybe occasionally if it gets excessive say something like “What was that Casey? Sorry was concentrating so didn’t catch that.” and she can apologize for talking to herself and that might get her to do it less. Worth trying.

      If you truly don’t want to bring it up, I would go to lunch less so you get some quiet time, make an internal game of keeping track of how many times Casey does the different things and maybe earn a reward after you get enough points? It is good of you to be accommodating, but I honestly think you are being too accommodating!

    15. OhGee*

      oh jeez. I need to note that none of what you’ve shared here is about different working styles. this is just really oblivious behavior in the workplace!

    16. Bird Law*

      As long as you’re unwilling to say something, you’re willing to bear all the negative consequences for your colleague’s awful behavior. She is being very rude. This is not appropriate workplace behavior at all!

      I just don’t think that’s fair.

    17. Future*

      She absolutely should be using headphones to listen to phone noise. It would be completely reasonable to ask this.

  10. Betty Spaghetti*

    Wondering how much, in general terms, is appropriate to share with current employees while we are going through the hiring process. We are down ~40% of our workforce due to several long-overdue and necessary terminations. I’d like to keep my employees updated to help mitigate frustration- so they know the process is moving forward. Obvs I won’t share any personal details, names, etc. But is it gauche to let them know how many applicants we have in total, overall quality of the applications, etc?

    1. pally*

      I would think that the progress of hiring new folks would be of best interest as this will soon impact their workload for the positive.

      I can see providing resume numbers and quality of the applications in two ways:

      (1) this information might come back later on in terms of how the new hires are viewed by the current employees. Maybe there will be talk about “the magnificent hire that got away” or “having to settle”.

      (2) Employees may look forward to the candidates who bring in new skills or sound very capable.

      YMMV.

      It really irked me when the project managers were discussing the process of hiring a new lab tech for our lab. One intended to hire a blonde as there weren’t any blondes in the lab. The other told me that most of the candidates were asking for more money than we were currently earning. These sorts of things don’t do anyone any good to hear.

    2. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      I probably wouldn’t give them exact numbers, but I think vague updates are helpful.
      * “We received quite a few good resumes over the past week, so we’re working on setting up some initial phone screens.”
      * “Our initial phone screens are complete, so we’re beginning to set up some in-person interviews over the next two weeks.”
      * “We’ve identified our finalists, so are hoping to wrap up second interviews over the next 2 weeks.”
      * “Second interviews are complete, and we are hoping to make a hire shortly. We will let you know when an offer has been accepted.”

      I think these kinds of periodic updates should suffice.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I agree, the timing and quality of the hire is what matters most to people and these answers tell them that progress is happening without getting into the level of detail that would be inappropriate to share.

    3. Desk Dragon*

      My company shares hiring updates on about a monthly basis with how many positions we’re recruiting for and numbers of offers extended, plus names of incoming new hires once offers have been extended. I don’t think they’ve ever shared number of applications or a sense of the quality of the candidate pool, beyond perhaps a very general “we’re reviewing a lot of applications” or “if you know anyone who might be a good candidate for [hard-to-fill position] remember we have a referral bonus program!” I personally would find it a bit odd to receive more details than that if I wasn’t actively involved in the hiring process.

    4. jasmine*

      Maybe it’s because it’s not uncommon for coworkers to interview at the companies I’ve worked for, but sharing hiring updates is really normal to me. I know when I was interviewing, the hiring manager mentioned, “one of the people we’re interviewing works at X company”

      Maybe leave names out of it, but other than that I wouldn’t worry

    6. Quinalla*

      I’d just let them know that you are aggressively looking. Let them know if you are getting close to making an offer, in early stages with a few folks, etc. Number of resumes or candidates currently in process is fine too. High level info, no details. Don’t tell them we went with our 2nd choice or other details like that which could get back to new hires and cause hurt feelings.

  11. Kat*

    I need a change up on my office set-up and fashion. How does everyone do the below if you’re on frequent video calls?

    – What tops and accessories do you wear that should look good on camera? For example, I feel more put together if I wear something with a turtleneck or flutter sleeves. Anything that shows up different on camera than a simple tee.
    – On video calls, do you look directly into the camera or at the screen? Do you have any tricks for making sure you’re always looking at the camera? Looking at the camera directly would show up as eye contact with the other person. I try to look at the camera directly, but I end up watching the screen (looking at the other person while they are talking). I wonder that since I’m not showing that direct eye contact, it’s subconsciously creating distrust with the other person.
    – Do you have your laptop elevated or on the desk? Having it elevated puts it face level with. On the desk would make it look up. Is one that is unconsciously better?

    1. Alisaurus*

      I have heard several times that it’s best to look directly at the camera when you’re speaking and that you’re fine to look at the other person when they are. I think everyone understands it’s not the same as eye contact in-person, since you looking at the camera the whole time means you’re not looking at the other person at all.

      Also, my laptop is elevated. Partially because my desk is smaller so I need the space for my ergonomic keyboard and also because I do not like to be looking down at video calls. I think that one’s a personal preference situation, especially if you don’t have a full WFH setup where you could elevate your camera.

    2. Passionfruit*

      In regards to the camera— if you’re on Zoom, you can drag your own video rectangle to the top of the screen. That is very helpful! In terms of eye contact, it’s nice to look near the camera, but it’s OK if you aren’t staring directly into it the whole time. Social norms are different on Zoom and people don’t expect complete eye contact. Think of it this way: if both of you were looking into the camera, neither of you would actually be seeing the other!

      I have my laptop elevated when I do video calls because the angle is more flattering. I want the camera to see my face, not my chest.

      1. Happily Retired*

        “I have my laptop elevated when I do video calls because the angle is more flattering.” – I try very hard to avoid Nostril Cam.

    3. Forest Hag*

      This is interesting to me since I am about to start a 100% remote job. :) I wfh frequently at my current job, but we don’t use video that often, and I will be using video a lot more coming up.

      1. I try not to wear black, because it seems like I just turn into this amorphous mass with a floating head whenever I wear black. I usually wear a solid tee but I try to make it a “nicer” tee, though my new company seems pretty casual so I don’t think that will be a problem.
      2. My monitor sits on a riser on my desk and I try to make the camera as close to the video screen as possible, so it looks more like I’m looking directly into the camera. I’ve tried to train myself to ignore the video and look into the camera, but I can’t. I don’t think it creates distrust, 99.9% of the people I’ve done video calls with don’t “make eye contact” so to speak, so I don’t think it’s that much of a issue. Our eyes just naturally go towards the video feed.
      3. I use an external camera and monitor so those are elevated on my desk riser. Laptop stays closed most of the time. I do make sure the camera is pointing directly AT me, not above or below, because I feel like that creates weird angles.

    4. CL*

      The look at the camera/screen question depends on your set up. I have a coworker who uses an external monitor and has the meeting on the external screen while the camera is on their laptop to the side. This means I am always looking at their left ear.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah – mine isn’t quite that dramatic, but my monitors are at a very slight angle to each other and the positioning on my camera works best if it’s on the top edge of the one that my Teams meeting window is NOT on, so if I’m watching the meeting instead of the camera, I’m looking slightly less than a quarter turn to the right instead of straight on.

    5. Unfortunate Admin*

      Now that I take a lot of video calls at work, I have adjusted my wardrobe a bit. In person, I’d be comfortable going to the office in a shirt that’s not necessarily low cut but like a cami or tank top with a cardigan or some open button shirt or a sleeveless dress and it looks fine. And this is totally a me thing and I don’t pay as much attention to what other people wear or care, but on video calls I might wear the same thing and feel like too much skin is exposed because there’s less balance of clothes since people are only seeing my upper body. So lately, I’ve been wearing more nice-ish, solid colour crew neck t shirts or long sleeve shirts /pullover sweaters. Which is kind of boring but simple and comfortable.

      I think having an elevated laptop is ideal for video calls. Looking at the camera is good but I don’t think too much about it unless I’m looking at my other screen so my head is tilted away from the camera, I try not to do that too much if I can help it.

      1. Uranus Wars*

        I was going to mention this! With the prevalence of video meetings I have changed to button up tops or crew neck for both the office and home! Even a v-neck makes me feel exposed. Both of my cameras are on top of a desktop monitor, so I feel like people can see *down my shirt*. Which I realize they can’t. And I don’t notice it on others – only myself!

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      1) I usually wear dresses in the summer. A collared shirt with jeans in the cooler weather is my go-to.

      2) In Zoom meetings, I will move the square with the speaker around until it is near the camera, so that if I look at the speaker, I am also looking at the camera, or near enough.

      3) I actually have my laptop attached to a large monitor. On that monitor, I have an external webcam that actually hangs down over the screen a few inches. This puts the camera at a level such that I am not craning my neck up at it. I feel like elevating your laptop, if that’s what you’re using, is good ergonomic practice anyway.

    7. Sneaky Squirrel*

      – I usually wear a blouse that I would feel comfortable to wear in office.
      – I look at the screen to see the person I’m talking with, but I bring their video window up close to where my webcam is so that I have the appearance that I’m looking towards the camera.
      – If I’m on my laptop and using the webcam, I would have it elevated to be at face level. More often, my laptop is docked to a monitor, keyboard, and an external web camera.

    8. office hobbit*

      I find the webcam on my laptop is close enough to the video that if I look at the video, it looks like I’m looking into the camera/making eye contact. When I’ve used an external webcam, the eye contact angles don’t work as well. Even in that case, I gave up on eye contact and just look at the video feed, though. When I tried to talk to the webcam, the effort of not looking at my coworkers and not being able to read their facial expressions was too distracting and I could tell I wasn’t explaining things as clearly as I would if I weren’t fretting about the camera.

    9. Harrowhark*

      I wear dark tops with subtle patterns. If I wear a solid color, my shoulders disappear into the virtual background. The shirts are collared blouses, which keeps them from looking like t-shirts. But I have also, in a pinch, worn an actual t-shirt and wrapped a colorful scarf around my neck.

      I look directly at the camera when I speak (unless I need to look at my screen to look up something, or when I’m sharing my screen). Otherwise, I’m looking at the person’s video feed when they are speaking. However, other people in my company never look at their camera at all, and it’s not weird or gets in the way of a productive call.

      I have an external camera that sits on top of the monitor that’s behind my laptop. I’d like to move it lower, to a spot in the middle of that monitor, because that would be at a more natural position for me to look at, but then part of the screen would be blocked.

      My colleagues have their cameras positioned all over the place. One person has hers so high that you can only see the top 3/4’s of her face; another has it far to his left, so he has to physically turn his whole body to look into the camera; and yet another has it low enough that the angle is looking up at her face from her collarbone. All of those are fine for our calls.

    10. Tio*

      I like patterned tops, with bright colors. I find it makes it easier for the camera to pick me up and attract the light and that darker colors sometimes put me in the shadow realm, but depending on your home lighting setup that might not matter. If it has much of a neckline, I will often wear a short necklace. I’ve gotten a few nice ones on clearance/coupons from Kohls and whatnot.

    11. MechanicalPencil*

      I go for “nicer” tshirts with subtle patterns in jewel tones or something to brighten me up a bit since the webcam always washes me out to the point of looking undead.

      I use a cabinet riser (like for having an extra place to stack plates) as an inexpensive monitor stand. That it’s a grate sort of top has the bonus of being able to wrap a cord around and not lose it behind my desk when I unplug my laptop for travel. With the riser + laptop open, it’s essentially face level, which seems optimal to me rather than looking up/down and creating a weird subconscious perception.

      I sort of look at a mixture of places. My webcam is on my laptop, but I also have a large external monitor, so depending on what I’m discussing, I may be looking in the camera or at the monitor. If I’m just speaking to a person, I use my external monitor to provide some additional lighting because, again, undead.

    12. Troy and Abed in the Morning*

      I wear my dinosaur hoodie with the hood up so I look like a dinosaur.

      I don’t make eye contact. I’m usually looking at the wall behind my laptop.

      I do elevate it so people can see my dinosaur hoodie better.

      It is possible my workplace has very different norms and expectations than most.

    13. Kes*

      1 – I don’t worry about this too much, beyond that if I’m wearing a tank top I’ll put a cardigan over
      2 – I look at the screen because I want to see the body language of the people I’m talking to and their reactions to what I’m saying
      3 – I have my laptop on the desk and a monitor above and what I do try and avoid is looking at the monitor because looking way up when the camera is below is weird. I don’t think it matters too much whether your laptop is elevated but I’d just try and find what works both in terms of using the laptop (if needed) and what angle you think you look best at

    14. Reebee*

      “I wonder that since I’m not showing that direct eye contact, it’s subconsciously creating distrust with the other person.”
      —

      Really? Huh. Never occurred to me, if that helps. I just see it as people not looking directly at me because they’re watching me talk, taking notes, or some other something having nothing to do with me.

    15. Quinalla*

      I wear collared shirts or shirts that are not the standard T-shirt collar to look dressier. I don’t worry about earring as they are under my headphones and not visible and necklaces aren’t visible either so /shrug on accessories. Make sure no messy hair visible I guess.

      Video calls, I put my camera on the monitor where I have the video shown and don’t worry about looking at the camera, but look in the direction. It is actually more important to stay engaged and not be looking at email, etc. It is very obvious whether you are engaged but it looks like you are looking a bit left/right/up/down or not engaged looking at something else. When presenting and everyone has their camera off I will look at the camera then, but that’s the only time.

      I don’t have a laptop with camera, but if I did I would elevate it if possible as it just looks better to have camera straight on vs. looking up, but it isn’t that big of a deal if you can’t. I have a USB camera that sits on top of my monitor which is elevated so it is at face level, but that is mainly so I don’t hunch over while working.

    16. Parakeet*

      1) I make a lot of my own (mostly fairly androgynous pendants/bracelets, or earrings that I only wear on one ear at a time because that doesn’t code quite as feminine) jewelry by hand, and it’s very much my own unique aesthetic. And the stuff from before I learned to make anything by hand was also carefully selected by me to fit my own aesthetic. Usually I’m wearing a casual t-shirt – or in colder weather, a casual sweatshirt or a flannel over a t-shirt – but many of my shirts are interesting colors, and it gives me pleasure and confidence to combine the clothing and the jewelry in striking ways.

      2) I look at myself a lot. Much easier for me than looking another person in the eyes in person, really! But also I think people interpret this sort of body language generously over video calls. I don’t think you’re creating distrust.

      3) I have it on the desk, but my desk (a long-ago graduation present from my parents that is beautiful but not configurable) is a little bit high up, and I also use a separate monitor, and a webcam that attaches to the top of my monitor rather than the built-in laptop one. So on calls I end up being face-level with the camera.

    17. allathian*

      I don’t stare people in the eye constanly in person, so I see no reason to do it in video meetings either. I mostly glance at the camera now and then.

      That said, pretty much all my meetings are internal so the stakes are lower than they would be with external customers.

    18. Last tiger of Tasmania*

      I use a USB webcam so that I can place my laptop however I want without worrying about how it affects the camera angle.

    19. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

      Put monitor & webcam at face level. Huge pet peeve is when it’s lower than the person and we can see up their nostrils, gross. Or we get dizzy watching the spinning ceiling fan behind them. Just be normal at face level.

    20. GythaOgden*

      I raise my laptop so only my head can be seen and use an external keyboard. It’s not by choice, but I can’t say I haven’t taken advantage of it and worn something relatively unorthodox because it was way, way too hot yesterday. (I have the top half of salwar kameez which I’ve worn at sci-fi conventions because it’s loose and dress length and has a nice pattern. I would never have worn it to work in person but I did yesterday because it was 30 degrees Celsius and I start melting at around 25.

      I have had compliments on my outfits, though. I am just glad to be being noticed and being able to show off some of my wardrobe again after being sat in an empty office for years on end. I’m not the smartest person in the world but my black top decorated in tiny printed unicorns was definitely a conversation piece at my last 1:1.

      Then again, people in my org have interviewed others while wearing a hoodie and on the treadmill, so I’m not exactly sure that it would matter unless I was actually still wearing my nightdress.

  12. Chirpy*

    I was off for most of this week, and apparently our part-timer quit. On the plus side, this means I likely won’t have my hours cut much (late summer is our slowest time) but it means it’s just me and the department head left, because they probably won’t hire anyone else until September.

    I just really do not want to work here anymore, but I’m afraid no one will hire me since most of my work experience is retail, I basically don’t have any work references because all my references disappeared off the face of the earth, and jobs in the fields I have a degree in are very few…and I can’t afford to temp.

    I did sort of figure out how to use my health insurance, but still haven’t been able to get an appointment to figure out what’s going on. (and not sure how I’ll pay for it if it’s not fully covered, which I doubt it will be.) I’m just so sick and tired of all of this nonsense.

    1. jasmine*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. have you thought about entry level jobs that aren’t in the field you have a degree in? the main hard requirement for entry level office jobs seems to be having any sort of degree. I don’t think it’d be an easy job search, but it’s one way to get into white collar work if that’s your goal

      also I’m not super familiar with retail, but is moving up in that world a possibility?

      1. Chirpy*

        Only if I become management (which I absolutely do not want) , or get a job at corporate headquarters (which is in a different city that I really dislike and is too far to commute.) If I stay here another year, I will almost certainly become a department head when we finally get the store reset, but having seen how it works in other locations that already have, I don’t really think it’s much of an improvement.

    2. Msd*

      Yuck. I’m sorry you’re in such a bad place. It’s really hard to look for a job when you’re feeling sick and tired. Re-look at the various links that Alison has for job searches, resumes, etc. To be enthusiastic for job hunting try the “fake it til you make it” approach. I know when I’m discouraged it’s really hard to think of things that will get me out of a rut so talk to other to get some ideas of next steps/things to try.

      1. Chirpy*

        Yeah. I just feel like my experience/lack of references/really bad anxiety with interviews* sucks, and having the best formatted resume in the world won’t fix that.

        *It’s specifically the judgement portion of interviews, practicing ahead of time or interviews with people I know does very little to help.

        1. Joielle*

          Have you looked into state government jobs? Not sure where you’re located but my state has a program for people with disabilities that mean they don’t interview well. They can essentially have an on-the-job interview (or “pre-probationary trial period”), which often leads to employment unless the person is clearly not a good fit. I’m in Minnesota and it’s called Connect 700 here, but I know other states have similar programs.

          There are tons of jobs in state government for all kinds of interests and backgrounds, generally with decent-to-good pay, very good benefits, great work-life balance, and a lot of stability. I’d encourage you to take a look!

          1. Chirpy*

            So, one of the biggest employers in my state for what I have a degree in is actually the state government…problem is, they almost never have openings. They weren’t hiring 10 years ago when I took this retail job just to have *something*, and now they seem to only be hiring people with 10 years experience. I’d love to work there, though.

        2. Msd*

          This may not be a politically correct suggestion but for interviews would it be possible to have your doctor prescribe anti anxiety medication? When I get an MRI I have the doctor prescribe Valium and it helps with my claustrophobia/anziety. To me taking something for an interview to calm you is better than white knuckling it. As a side note when I interview people who are obviously nervous I don’t hold it against them. I have found that some of my worse/most nervous interviewees were actually my some of my best employees.

          1. Chirpy*

            I’d have to get a doctor to actually treat me for anxiety first…the other part of my issue with going to see a doctor is that they always just tell me I’m fat and anxious without actually listening to what’s wrong, and I’ve never actually had any of them actually say “so let’s do something about that anxiety”.

            The only time I got anxiety medication is when I sprained my back…the guy told me it was a muscle relaxer but the pharmacist told me it was primarily an anxiety medication when I picked it up. (It did work for both purposes, but I couldn’t drive while using that one.)

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Try thinking outside of the box and try other things that maybe don’t relate directly to your degree. I have found that retail work can relate to other office type jobs. Have you looked at customer service type positions. I have an English writing degree but (because of circumstances and needing any job) I worked for a call center for 3 years before getting a job in a professional development school as student support. I know one person who doesn’t have more than an associates degree who now works for the county and helping people get connected to resources. She worked in call centers and such before getting to where she is now.

      Retail work has a lot of transferable skills. You (probably) know how to deal with people who are frustrated which can equal to client relations. You may be able to multi task or be able to start and stop projects when something urgent comes up. Are you good with time management and organization. Are you self reliant/self starter? all of these are good things to have in any administrative type job.

      1. Chirpy*

        I mean, honestly, I’m so burned out from working with awful customers that more customer service/ administration just sounds awful right now. Even though I know from a previous job that people do usually treat office workers better than retail.

        What I really want is a job where I can block off chunks of uninterrupted work, or have set times for public interactions. I’m just not great at re-starting after an interruption (would not surprise me if I have undiagnosed ADHD, I very clearly have undiagnosed anxiety.) Like, retail is one of the worst possible jobs for me to be doing.

        1. GythaOgden*

          I get what your ideal job might be, but to get there you’re going to need to compromise a bit. I did reception for a long time and only just moved into a more reactive admin job. Project-based work would probably mean a few steps up the ladder before you get there. I’d love to be in compliance and my boss knows my admin role is a stepping stone to get me there, but yeah, it’s totally still reactive. It’s more about knowing where you want to be and taking the steps to get there even if it takes a number of years.

          I’m very lucky to be in the supportive environment I’m in, but I also recognise that I could not go from reception to even a junior compliance officer without several years’ experience at an intermediate stage. My boss made a business case for my current role (and is doing the same for another receptionist in our patch by inviting her to sit in on one of our management meetings next week to see what is involved in the life of a junior facilities site manager) and here I am, not quite living the dream YET but in a much better situation — physical, mental, financial, you name it — nevertheless.

          Also, you’re not doing it consciously but: try not to discount EVERYTHING we suggest. You’ve asked a lot before but if you’re always responding defensively, we can’t help you as much as you want us to. We’re totally on your side, and I’ve totally been there (with the added restriction that my reception post was in an office not open to the general public, which meant I didn’t have the customer service skills even to get a job in a call centre. It’s a bit less flexible here in the UK; because we have more protections, there’s a need for more vetting. The Connect 700 scheme is an amazing idea and would have solved a lot of problems for me, but sadly hasn’t made its way over here yet and may not be compatible with a culture that has greater working rights from day 1.)

          Also, by showing willing and interest despite being frustrated by life, you give others a better impression of your capabilities. Even if you’re inwardly seething at the injustice of the world — and again, I have TOTALLY been there — getting out of this situation requires networking with your available contacts. It’s hard to be like that because it feels two-faced, and I’m autistic with a history of not being able to mask at all, but the more you fake it, the easier it gets to genuinely feel more responsible and impress others.

          We’re all rooting for you, but seriously, you can’t do much towards the goal of a specific kind of project work job without paying your dues. Don’t let it discourage you, but at the same time, you will need to think more realistically — and also maybe respect our time in trying to help you by using what you get here.

          1. Chirpy*

            It’s just hard because it feels like I’ve been “paying my dues” for 20 years already, and all it gets me is people treating me worse and worse because “why haven’t you gotten further ahead in life by now.” And a lot of the “more professional” entry level jobs don’t pay significantly more than what I currently make, which is not a living wage. I’m just never going to get ahead if I can’t find something I’d actually be good enough at to get promoted.

            1. Shard*

              And a lot of the “more professional” entry level jobs don’t pay significantly more than what I currently make

              But it would still be more. After all, 0+1 is still an increase over 0, even if it’s not as large an increase as 0+100.

              1. Chirpy*

                Yeah, but this is like I need $5k more per year to stay afloat, and these jobs are like $1k more with 2/3 less vacation than I currently have, and it doesn’t seem like much of an improvement.

          2. Chirpy*

            I mean, I have a college degree, with a double major and two minors. But apparently working retail completely erases that.

            1. RagingADHD*

              I hear you. It isn’t fair, and it sucks.

              And nevertheless, the way to get out of this silo is to go for openings that may not be a lot better immediately, but that have a viable path into something better later on.

            2. GythaOgden*

              I have an undergraduate degree in politics from the London School of Economics (an internationally renowned social science university), a Masters in international law research from the University of Reading (England), which is in the top 10 law faculties in the UK, and had a place to do a PhD at Kings College in London but failed to get funding. I worked reception for 10 years because despite my education, my autism and co-morbid neurological difficulties made it really hard to hold down a practical job until I’d got a grip on myself. I’m still very unlikely to go up into actual management because I tire easily and don’t generally have the proactive mentality (yet) to do much other than admin.

              But look, Chirpy, for years I thought that I was either unemployable or doomed to sit on reception day in, day out. I got sacked or managed out three times in as many years and spent ten years on incapacity benefit. I’ve been there and so have a lot of people. We can sympathise and help out, but you yourself have to make the first move. Be brave. Put yourself out there into a less than ideal situation. My new job after that ten year stint on reception (which was bloody hard to get out of without fresh admin experience), while it’s amazing and fun and working from home and with some incredible people who really want to be at work doing good stuff in healthcare facilities, only pays the same wage as the reception job. I only got a pay rise because I now work 37.5 hours rather than 25, and don’t have the commuting costs. I am in a privileged financial position (thanks to a legacy and insurance payouts from my husband’s untimely death, plus parents who reached the top of their careers and thus could invest money in property for us), but take the approach that with that great privilege comes great responsibility and thus do my best to navigate the ambivalence of the working world and put back into the system that keeps me afloat as a person.

              You come here asking for answers to a lot of questions and all but you never take any actual action to solve the problems. I absolutely wish I had a magic wand because I can’t stand to see someone struggling in the exact same way I was struggling a year or two ago. (Working ten years on healthcare reception will do that to a person :(.)

              But it does take effort and compromise and a willingness to work with people rather than against them even if they themselves behave less than perfectly towards you. I’ve clawed my way out of a work situation that required a degree in escapology to effect. You need someone to give you a break, but you also need to be able to recognise where that break is and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    4. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      I got my first tech job with a bachelor’s degree in Spanish and 10 years of retail experience. Working retail teaches you tons of soft skills for dealing with customers, tough situations, making more from less, and problem solving, among others. I started in customer support at a small company and am now making a good living as a business analyst.
      Anybody can be a work reference – trusted colleagues you work with currently, for example.

      1. Chirpy*

        I don’t have any trusted colleagues, my coworkers are terrible. There was one recent former coworker I could have asked, but I couldn’t contact her. Otherwise, it’s basically I *might* be able to find a supervisor from 10 years ago via his wife’s Facebook (because he doesn’t do technology and moved halfway across the country)…and I have someone I volunteer with who’s offered to be a reference.

        1. Msd*

          Despite what I read in ask a manager, I’m not convinced that all employers actually check references. I think only very large ones with an actual HR department do. Don’t let the lack of references keep you from job hunting. Just keep “ references on request” off your resume. If asked then have a simple explanation such as “due to the nature of retail there’s a lot of turnover of coworkers and ex managers and unfortunately they do not stay in touch” or something like that. Perhaps have a personal reference you could use rather than a professional one if pressed.

          1. Chirpy*

            I used to work in an office before retail, those people also disappeared. Weirdly, multiple workplaces have had complete turnovers in staff or closed completely after I left. Like 4 times.

            1. Chirpy*

              So, 4 out of my 7 jobs, and my current and the previous are for the same company, so I can’t ask someone from the previous job for a reference without it getting back to my current manager.

              1. Msd*

                As I read your comments it seems to me that you are in a bit of a negative spiral. Those are really really hard to get out of. A couple of things to focus on – lack of references does not need to keep you from getting a job. Many places do not check references. Explain that your current position precludes you from using any current references and that due to the volatility of retail work past references are not available. I suggested getting some anti anxiety meds for interviews. I meant from a regular doctor for interviews not as long term treatment. You’re right that the medical profession is famous for fat shaming (btw it does the same kind of thing to old people – everything sluffed off as “well you’re old what do you expect”). Google “how to find a fat friendly doctor”. Also it’s hard but you can push back at an obnoxious doctor. Call them out for lazy diagnosis. It’s sad that you’re in such a bad place but please realize that being in that place is keeping you from seeing any solutions.

                1. Chirpy*

                  Yeah, I do realize I’m in an anxiety spiral. I just can’t get past the anxiety to even find a doctor.

                2. GythaOgden*

                  Just wanted to say Chirpy that despite my exasperation above, I totally understand where you are in terms of anxiety. It will worm its way in and eat you from inside.

                  The best thing I did was to get medication for it but I know that’s not that easy in the US healthcare system. It helped me think a lot straighter than before and be able to look the anxiety in the eye and tell it it didn’t control me. It’s really tough and for me it only really happened because something happened that made it impossible to go on without it because my husband’s illness made it imperative that I tame my demons to make sure he was properly taken care of. It simply has to come from within and I do hope that you find that catalyst that gets you out of the situation.

                  Look on it this way — I’ve been there and I know how tough it is to swallow your pride. But the difference between where I was a year ago and now is so awesome that it’s worth a bit of hard graft to get that leg up.

                  You CAN do it and you WILL do it. Just hold on to those two words and anything is possible.

              2. Msd*

                One last suggestion – maybe put your job search/worry on hold for 8 months. During that time can you volunteer at your local government? I volunteer at my city’s health department (only downside is i don’t want to eat at any of the local restaurants) and there is little to no interaction with the public. My thought is that you could then use someone there as a personal reference. A big virtual hug and hopes that you get to a better place.

              3. Doc McCracken*

                I was diagnosed with adhd at age 41. I often feel like I’m “behind” because of the opportunities I missed out on without support. To start moving out of the spiral, you need support from someone. That can be from a high quality mental health podcast, trusted friend, safe family member etc. Ask the person who is most safe in your circle to help you with one thing. It can feel like you will never dig out of the hole.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I know you want to get out of customer facing roles, but there are some close hops from retail that have easier tracks to other types of roles, like data processing or back end customer support (doing the paperwork rather than the direct interaction).

      The first two that tend to be always hiring are bank teller and hotel front desk. Again, I know these are not ideal for you, but it’s about finding a pathway.

      Banking usually has a lot of opportunities to move into things like loan processing, and other lateral or upward moves. Hotels have opportunities to move into auditing and other businesses segments.

  13. Layoff Anxiety*

    My husband works for a start-up that is having financial trouble. After talking with the owners about cutting costs in his department, the solution they agreed to (which he proposed) was to lay him off at the beginning of August.

    We’re really privileged to have a safety net and I think his skill set is in-demand enough that he hopefully won’t be out of work for long, but we’ll be relying on my income for a while. My salary is less than half of his. I’ve seen a lot of articles online about how to emotionally support a partner after a layoff, but not as much financial advice about unexpectedly becoming a single-income household. Aside from “get him on my health insurance”, what else should I be thinking about?

    1. Blueprint blues*

      reducing expenses. a bit late, but live on your salary alone. hopefully the layoff won’t last too long, but plan for it like it will.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      If you’re in the US and own a house, then look into getting a home equity line of credit now. If you have to borrow money, it’ll be cheaper than a credit card, and you’ll have a harder time getting one when he’s unemployed.

      1. Magpie*

        You really shouldn’t use a HELOC in this kind of situation. If you default on the payments, you’re putting your house in danger of foreclosure and if you’re using the money from the HELOC to cover expenses because of a layoff, the chances of default are especially high. It’s much better to use credit cards even if the interest rate is higher because you won’t end up losing your home if you’re late on a few credit card payments.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          I suppose it depends on your situation, but the chances of default are relatively low. If you borrow say, $20k at 10% interest, then you’ll paying $2k a year until the repayment period starts which is typically ten years. Presumably you’ll figure out a plan by then.

          If you want to be conservative, you can save $2k so that you have enough to cover the year (maybe $4k) and then you’ll have $18k to spend on expenses.

          I guess if you think there’s a good job you might end up defaulting on your loans because you’ll be out of work for a long time, then go with the credit cards.

    3. pally*

      While hubby has his medical insurance, get what appointments/treatments he can under his coverage.
      Also, there may be a gap between the time coverage starts under your insurance and when his lapses. Try to minimize this if you can.

      Get on the same page with the family budget and where to minimize expenses.

      I assume hubby will file for unemployment. Do this as soon as possible.

    4. WellRed*

      Did he negotiate severance? Is him picking up some sort of casual part time work a possibility?

      1. Layoff Anxiety*

        Severance pay is unlikely given the financial situation, but they’re interested in contracting him for a few hours a month if possible. In which case, I assume, he’d be a 1099 contractor and have to set aside funds for taxes. He may try to contract with an old boss as well. I’m not sure how the setup would be there either. Trying to be plan ahead without delving into a classic panic spiral.

        1. 1099 and unemployment*

          Be aware that 1099 contracting may make him ineligible for unemployment or make it difficult. Most unemployment rules are not designed for modern work mechanism such as periodic work. When I did some 1099 freelancing I got flagged if I earned money one week and not the next, even if it was just $10-15. I had to go through a process to reopen my claim because it was treated like a termination of part time work. I always got the money eventually, but it would delay payments for several weeks each time until they were satisfied and reopened my claim. The specific rules and processes vary by state, but there is a general expectation that work (whether w-2 or 1099) is on or off and not fluctuating.

          However, if they offer him 1099 work and he doesn’t take it he likely will not be eligible for unemployment at all because it’s pretty universal that you can’t turn down any work you’re offered while on unemployment.

          Good luck!

    5. pally*

      If there is a 401K or pension- you might look into getting that rolled over so that this doesn’t get forgotten about.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you have an FSA, use it up in July. The last day to incur expenses is the last day of employment.

      If you trust your practitioner you may be able to do something like get prepay a long-delayed root canal, and get it billed all on a July consultation.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I did this when I left my last job – put down a deposit on my next pair of glasses, on the very last day of work, which used up my FSA to the penny. It was pretty satisfying.

    7. jasmine*

      do you have an idea of your current monthly expenses? if not, I’d work on that and then you can plan cuts where needed

      monthly expenses vary, but you just want a general idea. don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good

    8. MissGirl*

      I went through a layoff last year. Have him apply for unemployment as soon as it’s his last day. Depending on severance , it might not pay right away but you want to file and submit weekly at the start. As soon as he gets severance, put it in a high yield savings account. Don’t touch it unless necessary. It’ll feel like a good chunk of money depending but it goes fast.

      Sit down together and go through all your expenses and your net worth. Sort expenses by fixed and variable with fixed being things like mortgage. Cut variable as much as possible. Comb through all subscriptions and cut them down to only necessary and one for fun.

      Look at your net worth. Now that you have a better idea of expenses, figure out if you can survive on your salary or if you’ll need to pull in savings. That’ll tell you how long you’ll need savings for and how long it’ll last.

      I was just me so I stopped all automatic investments and saving transfers. I kept track of what I would’ve put in to make up for it if I got a job before I ran out of savings. For instance, I still maxed out my Roth but not until I got a new job.

      The important thing is not to keep on going with things as is until there’s a big problem. Be proactive.

    9. Ready for the weekend*

      If he has a retirement plan with the company, can you roll it over into an IRA now?

    10. DrSalty*

      Take a look at your monthly expenses and make sure you can cover them on your salary alone. If not, are there things you can cut? You say you have a safety net – does that mean emergency savings, and if so, how long can you rely on them before they run out?

    11. TCO*

      Take a closer look at your health insurance options. He may have the opportunity to stay with his employer’s health plan through COBRA. He’ll have to pay the full premium, but that could end up being the best deal if he gets regular medical care and has already met any annual deductible, or if his coverage is better than yours.

      Or, if he doesn’t anticipate needing any care right away, he can wait up to 60 days from his termination date to enroll in COBRA and it’s retroactive to the termination date if he enrolls. Basically, he can wait up to 60 days to see if he actually needs any health insurance before making an enrollment decision. (That 60-day mark is also usually the deadline for him to join your plan mid-year as a qualifying life event.)

      Do your own research and get details from his employer, but just know that you might be able to delay a month or two on the health insurance issue if he isn’t sure whether he’ll need coverage or how quickly he’ll be able to get on a new employer’s plan.

    12. Parakeet*

      I’ve been in a very, very similar situation. If you currently have direct deposit going to multiple accounts (say, a shared one and a personal one), figure out if you want to adjust the percentages that are automatically going to each. Figure out some small expenses cuts that won’t make you miserable if you have to rely on them for a prolonged period of time, to go with any necessary big ones. Pause on any automatic transfers (beyond your retirement account) into accounts that aren’t totally liquid (mutual funds, certificates of deposit, etc) until you have a handle on your new financial management needs.

    13. Girasol*

      In his spare time (it’s really hard to job search for a solid eight hours a day) see if he’d be interested in figuring out where all your money goes, perhaps on a spreadsheet, so you two can decide where you might cut back without feeling too deprived. If either of you is interested in cooking, go over your grocery slips to see what costs most and figure out how you might feed yourselves well but more cheaply. Go over local papers for entertainment opportunities that are free. Date nights and outings are really important to keep spirits up and marriage solid when you’re going through a rough spot like this, and they don’t have to cost.

    14. JPalmer*

      1. Get him on your health insurance is good. Examine if there is a COBRA plan and how much that’d cost. It’s probably not cheaper.
      2. Apply for unemployment immediately. They agreed to cut costs and lay him off. He should be eligible.
      3. [Not money related] Make sure he asks to give a good reference. If they have social media having them signal boost him can help line up the next thing.
      4. Combined you’ll likely have less income this year than other years. That can make it more worthwhile to do things like selling stocks.
      5. Think about contribution to retirement accounts, and if you want to scale back yours so you have more money/runway available. If he gets a job in 3 months you can probably make up any reduced contributions.
      6. Do the math for the financial timelines of how long y’all can afford to ‘hunt for a good option’ and when that becomes ‘Get any even not directly adjacent job cause money’.
      7. [Not money related] Talk about #6 and when approach to job needs to pivot. Remind him that a setback like that doesn’t mean he needs to stick with that job, just making sure
      8. Talk about shared labor and responsibilities. Given that you’re temporarily the sole breadwinner, him picking up more household responsibilities in the short term can give him healthy things to focus on and keep stuff out of the way for you so you can ensure you’re bringing your best to work (so that you can either excel or remain very stable). That can result in you hitting better targets and potentially getting a raise, or preventing you from losing your income.
      9. Look into what retirement accounts and home equity lines of credit you have. You do not want to need to use these (they are lossy safety nets), but knowing how much is available can give you a lot of peace of mind and de-stress this whole process.
      10. Work might have partners or work connections in the same industry or other companies. Having him chat with work might help him skip the whole ‘gatekept application process’ and help get him employed again.
      11. Another comment mentioned the ‘doing some precise contracting work’ for $$. Depending on your state this should not make you ineligible for unemployment.
      12. Does he have any health benefits with the company that he’ll lose access to. Some tech companies have like a ‘StayFit’ benefit. When I was laid off from Big Llama Computing, I got to spend >$1000 on a gardening shopping spree.
      13. [Not Money Related] Him having some new hobbies is great for his mental health, which will help him as he’s interviewing. He’s going to suddenly have a bunch more time, and having healthy ways to spend it keeps his brain more active and ready for challenges.
      14. [Not Money Related] Talk to him about career direction and how he feels about how the startup went/what he wants out of future jobs. Trying to regularly engage with him about his career can help him keep more focused on his needs.

      Hope this off-the-cuff advice is helpful!

    15. Goldie*

      When this happened to my husband we immediately scaled back all spending, cooking at home, budget groceries, paused gym, if you can pause student loan payments, we had child care costs that we cut with him home. Apply for unemployment.

      Then move fast on the job search, networking like crazy. My husband was hired within 4 months. We kept the reduced spending going until we were fully recovered financially.

  14. PX*

    Sigh. I had 2 initial phone screens this week as I need to get serious about job hunting before I get to BEC with my current job.
    Job 1: more pay (important to me) but want me to travel to the London office 1x week which initially I thought might be feasible but the more I think about it, the more hassle it sounds (it would be an approx 2h 1 way commute, paid for myself (not cheap because lol, UK trains suck))

    Job2: fully remote, really flexible around work from anywhere (great, something I’d very much like), but pay is about what I’m currently making and for what sounds like a more stressful environment.

    And the third, even bigger problem is that I dont think I really want to continue in my current job type – but trying to break into something new even if I have the transferable skills is so tough in this economy. No real question, just a bit of a sad vent and commiserations to anyone in the same boat.

    1. Dread Pirate Roberts*

      No real answer but maybe a bit of cheerleading to look longer term? It sounds like the right opportunity is something other than the two on the table. So unless you’re desperate for a job now, you aren’t relegated to those two not-terrific choices. A closer to ideal situation could be harder to see, and harder to get, if you jump at the first available choice. Looking back at my past job searches, when I was getting frustrated at not getting an offer I was excited about I just had to wait a little longer for something that was a much better fit. I also have thought about changing job types but found once the job fit me better, even when it was the same kind of work, I was much happier.

      And I have to say a 2 hour commute to London sounds horrendous even if it’s just once a week – 20% of your work week would be a nightmare!

      1. PX*

        Thank you! Yes, I’m definitely not desperate for a job, these opportunities just cropped up and I figured I’d at least take the call(s) and see how I felt. If anything my lack of enthusiasm is a good gauge on the fact that my gut feel on wanting a change is the right one.

        I think my fear is that while I’ve figured out the type of work I *want* to do, I havent quite figured out where the right places to go looking for it are (it’s sort of niche and goes by many title variations depending on industry) so maybe I’m just borrowing trouble by preemptively worrying about a long job search really.

    2. Radiant*

      Would the pay uplift from Job 1 be completely eaten up by the cost of your train tickets? I guess it’s deciding which is the lesser of two evils – long expensive commute or a more stressful but remote job. Which isn’t really the best of choices, I get it. You have my commiserations also (my commute when I go to the office once a week is 1.5hrs into London, but I work in the rail industry so get a discount. I couldn’t afford it otherwise!)

      1. PX*

        I don’t think the pay uplift would be completely eaten just by tickets but I think the added time/commute burden would not really make up for it. I also worry about scope creep with jobs like this. They start off saying once a week is fine, then want you to come in once or twice extra for meetings and next thing you know it’s 2-3 times a week which would be a complete no go for me.

        1. Msd*

          I think that is a valid concern and very likely what would happen. You could ask? I know a similar thing happens a lot when a job requires travel. It can often be much more than told in an interview.

  15. Eye rolling*

    Is there anything I can do besides internally roll my eyes and keep moving?

    My grandboss recently made a big deal to the entire department about taking time off to recharge after a difficult start to the year. They were taking time off and we should all follow their example. Except, they have been replying to emails and working a lot during their “vacation” and it’s creating confusion about who is in charge while they are out and whether staff should contact them. This is not new behavior. Any advice?

    1. PotatoRock*

      Not yours to address, ignore unless /you/ need clarification on who to address /your/ questions, etc to

      1. BellaStella*

        Agree here. Unless you are impacted please ignore it all to give them their time off. My grandboss does this too, and in fact even called into meetings when she was in the hospital at one point. She has no boundaries tho. Try to make sure you can get your work done and just ignore it all til they come back.

  16. silly goose*

    What do you do when people keep trying to give you degrees you don’t have? I work in academia in a job where many people have a PhD, but I do not. People call me “Dr. (my name)”, especially in email, at least once a week. The first time someone does it I’ll correct them and tell them to just call me by my name (and I also have my correct title in my email signature), but sometimes people will just continue. It feels weird to let it go, but it also feels rude to keep correcting people repeatedly. Does anyone else deal with this and if so what do you do?

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      As someone who works in higher ed as staff, I default to Dr. for faculty and Administration until otherwise corrected. I don’t think they’re rude for correcting me, and I’ve had too a few experiences of they very much thought I was rude for NOT calling someone Dr. even when they sign off their email as “Bob” instead of Dr. Robert… ’cause I should apparently be looking them up in the campus directory to know exactly Who.They.Are.

      If people are continuing to call you Dr. after you correct them however, they might have heard others calling you Dr. and maybe got confused. It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

      1. sunset*

        It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

        This! Also, it’s better to default to extra credentials than too few

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Same here, medical school library: Everyone is “Doctor” until they tell me otherwise unless I know for certain they aren’t (we do get a very few undergrads). But I don’t need to be corrected multiple times for the same person.

        I also have a weird first name and have gotten fed up with people mispronouncing it, so I just keep correcting them.

      3. Rebecca*

        “It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

        It is not rude to use the correct title. If the correct title is Mr./Ms./Mx., use it. Do not give someone a credential they don’t have in place of using their correct title.

    2. But maybe not*

      Yes, I get this regularly, as do others I work with in academia without doctorates. I don’t even attempt to correct people anymore. If having a PhD mattered to what response you are giving them, then sure, say something, but otherwise? More work than it’s worth.

    3. Ellie*

      Congratulations on your honorary doctorate! Before I got my PhD, this was an effective way to rule out academic spam. Anyone who called me Dr was usually trying to sell me something.

    4. TheyCallMeMISTERPepper*

      You could update your email signature to “John Doe, MBA” with the rest of your contact info. Adding credentials to your signature is not at all uncommon at our University. That way it’ll be obvious you’re not trying to claim a degree you don’t have. Then just ignore how people address you. Like another poster wrote, calling an academic “Dr” is just a safe default (because calling a doctor “mister” can be a cardinal sin to some). I *try* to remember if someone corrects me but I have enough problems remembering everyone’s names, I’m not going to memorize their degrees.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Oh my gosh this happens to people in my department too! I work in a university mental health counseling department. There are only a few folx who have PHD’s in counseling or psychology. the rest all have masters. I think ever so often we get someone who has been addressed as doctor.

      I think you should correct them. They are probably on auto pilot. Be nice about it. “Oh thanks for giving me an honorary doctorate!”

    6. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      I’ve worked in higher ed on the staff side for 15+ years, and the reason it’s happening is because it is safer/easier to default to Dr. Soandso than the alternative–accidentally NOT “Dr.”ing someone who is and will get offended by not being called such. I know someone who was let go at the end of her probationary period b/c her dept. chair was upset about her not using “Dr.” with everyone. (That dept. chair was an ass, but there are lots of those in upper admin).

      If you want, you can correct people, but honestly I’d let it go unless it really deeply bothers you. No one’s trying to actually give you a degree you don’t have. If anything, telling people to just call you by your name is probably the best route if that’s what you actually want them to call you. But you’re probably always going to get that from people who don’t know you, don’t work with you often, or are emailing you for the first time.

  17. Justme, The OG*

    Is hiring someone always a complete pain in the rear, or is it worse because I’m in higher education (this is a staff role)?

    1. SansaStark*

      No experience with education, but yessssss it has been for me. Even when things run reasonably smoothly, there’s always something that goes slightly awry. And if anyone else involved in the hiring process (HR, another panelist, etc.) is even slightly less competent…it becomes 100x worse. Good luck and I hope the new hire makes it worth the hassle!

    2. But maybe not*

      Both can be true.

      Remember…

      “Higher education is slow. Hang in there.” AAM user Pam Adams, July 12 open thread

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      All of it

      I am going to partially blame the increased reliance on job posting sites and applicant tracking software/HR tools. I think you get more garbage applications and people who are not even interested in the job. And depending on what you are using there seems to be a lot of prioritizing which jobs show up in searches which can make it hard for people to find your job

      Because it is also seeming to be more difficult from the applicant side. Jobs posted that don’t exist, so many garbage applications that faulty keyword searches are culling great candidates etc.

      But Staff and Academia screams underpaid (I am staff in academia). I have great benefits, but academic staff jobs want advanced skills but pay barely above minimum so the only candidates we get are minimum skills.

      1. But maybe not*

        My higher ed staff peers and I scan the job board daily to find the most egregious cases of “Must have a PhD and do 18 different skill set jobs. Pay: $45K/yr, one year term”

      2. Justme, The OG*

        This position is fairly well paid (it’s my old position from before I was promoted) but I know we have large industry locally who pays much more. We have people with PhDs applying when it only required a Bachelor’s, so I know we won’t pay enough for them. Not to mention the job requisition took two months to go through.

        1. But maybe not*

          Something I highly recommend, if your HR process will allow it, is to conduct a phone screen with your qualified candidates with just a few questions that most definitely include:

          -I know the job posting says ______, but here are the things the job will actually do. Does that fit with your understanding of the position?
          -The hiring range for the position is X to X. Does that fit in with your salary expectations?

          IME we very regularly get candidates who a) think they will be able to negotiate above the hiring range, b) think the job is a higher level than it is, c) somehow think that just getting a foot in at the university will lead to a faculty position. By having a frank conversation from the get-go, I can usually get those folks to self-select out so we don’t get all the way to the offer stage to find out we couldn’t possibly meet their expectations.

          1. Higher Ed Expat*

            Yes to all of this. I often had people with PhDs applying for my Student Activities admin coordinator thinking they could move into other roles. It was a good chance to really let them know about the job, salary, and the career path. Most were not actually interested.

        2. Dr. QT*

          As someone with a PhD who was trying SO HARD to get out of adjuncting full time for 16k a year, even a modest or low paying job with benefits still paid enough. I’m pretty sure I didn’t get interviews on some jobs because people thought that with a Ph.D. what they were offering wouldn’t be enough, but the job market is pretty bad for a lot of Drs who were trying to make it in academia before giving up. The hiring manager asked why I would be interested in the job I have now at the stated salary and I was like “this is so much of a raise for me, and also less stress than teaching 3-4 classes a semester.”

        3. STEM Admin*

          I thought the same thing. But the job market is not great for PhD-level positions, and frankly some of my recent hires just want to get away from the insane faculty asks and uncertain funding year to year and are looking forward to the perks of being on the admin side, like stable employment, guaranteed COLAs, 40ish-hour schedules, and attainable career advancement paths. I’ve got a couple of doctorate-level staff that are crushing it and appear to be pretty happy. I did have very clear pre-interview conversations about salaries and expectations. When we go forward with an offer, I spend time working with them to get their resumes as HR-friendly as possible to ensure an offer at the top of our budget (they assume everyone understands what being a faculty member entails and how it is directly relevant to the admin side – HR absolutely does not understand this).

    4. TheyCallMeMISTERPepper*

      Education hiring can be very slow anyway but if their fiscal year runs July to June it’ll bog down even more. Normal spending freezes in May while they do final budget reconciliation, sweeping remaining balances in individual accounts, and getting that money allocated and spent before the end of the fiscal year. So they usually have a backlog of “regular” stuff to handle when July starts along with all the new fiscal year stuff. And the priority will be getting faculty hiring done in time for the Fall semester.

    5. Nesprin*

      Yes, it’s always a pain, and in higher ed, it will be many pains in many rears because of institutional inertia, number of decision makers and the piss poor likelihood that a low performer would be fired.

    6. Bitte Meddler*

      My department recently made an offer to the candidate that we all agreed was the best fit. She has hemmed-and-hawed for almost a week, telling our internal recruiter that she needs to “sit with the offer and feel it.”

      She’s good, so I assume she’s juggling at least one other offer, but she could have said that instead of the “woo” answer she gave, which has caused us to kind of reconsider how good of a candidate she really is.

      This isn’t a position where you need to “feel it” in order to make a decision or do your day-to-day work.

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          Oh, I get the “sit with it” part, but the “I need to feel it” part left us all scratching our heads.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          Yeah, I agree, but it is an odd way to say it to a potential manager.

          A full 7-day week might be pushing it, but I’d think 4-5 days would still be reasonable for pondering a job offer. I’m a person who puts a bunch of things in my Amazon cart and then I have to “sit with it, and feel it” sometimes for quite a while before I hit the check out and that’s a lot lower stakes on my life than a new job. She might not even have a second offer — she could be doing some network reconnaissance on the department culture.

    8. Joe Momma*

      It’s probably worse because you’re in higher ed. I’m applying for admin staff positions at some colleges and universities now and the applications are clunky, they want all these references and cover letters and mission statements and there’s a million questions up front. Plus you usually have to pay for parking on the job and the pay is barely worth it. I imagine a lot of good candidates get turned off to the process if there are private companies in your area hiring for the same position types.

    10. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      I’d say both; but the thing is, there’s higher ed and then there’s higher ed. When I worked for a state institution, it took AGES because job descriptions had to have a certain amount of parity, there were legit union-versus-academic professional issues, various levels had to sign off, etc. But I sisn’t mind it, because everything was transparent, defined and agreed upon. Plus, there was recourse via both the union and the access & equity office.

      Working at a private university, things took AGES for absolute bullshit reasons. Nothing was transparent; HR was the upper administration’s bitch. I really think they totally invented a “salary band” on an ad hoc basis only when someone asked. Job descriptions were a joke. There was no recourse even in the face of demonstrable (i.e. can prove it via documentation in court) discrimination.

      My point is that higher ed hiring is always going to be a long process, but the reasons for that slow process really matter.

    11. A Person*

      Honestly once I’ve actually gotten headcount AND recruiter allocation (which can be rough) it hasn’t been a huge pain. Right now the biggest headache is really the volume of resumes to sift through – there are plenty of good candidates and we have a pretty defined process for the recruiter / interview / etcetera. This is the corporate / tech world.

  18. Tradd*

    I’m a long time customs broker/in international transportation. The worldwide tech outage because of the CloudStrike software update glitch has affected airlines bad. I’ve got several air shipments delayed because of this. The customers are just rude. Yelling at me on the phone when they received my email with notice of the delay. People are so unprofessional. I included a link to a news article about the issues in case they were aware. They didn’t believe me. The news article was from a reputable source. Idiots. Just idiots.

    1. Ugh People*

      Ugh. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I have a relative who works for a company that was affected by the Baltimore Bridge Collapse and clients just didn’t understand that they truly didn’t know when certain containers would arrive since everything was being rerouted. Like you, they included news articles and it still didn’t help them understand.

      I hope your day and weekend get better.

      1. Tradd*

        Thank you! We have a big customer in the Baltimore area whose containers go into Baltimore. The morning of the Baltimore bridge collapse, the executive we deal with was calling one of my company’s owners around 6am, yelling about his containers. Dude has since proved himself to be a dick multiple times since then. His containers from China have just started shipping into Baltimore again in the past several weeks.

        1. Tio*

          Back during one of the west coast strikes, I had a customer who wanted to know when his container was coming. I explained the strikes and that his container was at the port and had no idea but were seeing month long wait times. He emailed back, copied in my boss, and said “Please teach [Tio] how to answer a question!”

          Eff you, jerk. I hope your container never gets there and your next one falls into the ocean. People get so crappy about delays like that which we have zero control over.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Ah, yes, the “make them tell me what I want to hear so I can freak out when it doesn’t happen” customer.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      I think sometimes it helps as a customer to know EXACTLY what went wrong. Just saying “the system is down” doesn’t cut it. Is it down because a building got flooded? Was it hacked? What’s the timeline for fixing it.

      I commiserate with you but so many of the articles are frustratingly light on details. And when we’ve had local outages here this level of non-detail meant we had to wait either five minutes or three days. I wish they gave any details. The fear of the unknown stresses people

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          I know but I’m saying that many of the MSM articles are light on details. “so so and was impacted and CEO apologized” but people want to know SPECIFICALLY what broke and why and how and when they’re fixing it. Apologies if you found an article explaining that and sent it, I’m assuming you couldn’t since most articles are so generic

          1. Tradd*

            I knew from elsewhere I hang out online that everything happened when CloudStrike pushed out an untested update. Lots of IT guys on that site. I had an article that mentioned that. I specifically searched for that. But basically, many people are so ignorant about tech stuff, it really wouldn’t matter. I saw so many people on social media saying Microsoft caused this.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              I read Microsoft as “Minecraft,” and realized that it probably was interchangeable for far too many people.

    3. jasmine*

      Ugh why do some people think that being a punching bag is part of other people’s job descriptions? Go work out your frustration by yelling into a pillow or something. Sorry you have to deal with these jerks

    4. Too Many Tabs Open*

      That really stinks, and I’m sorry that you’re having to deal with jerks. What do they expect you to do, graft wings onto your back and go pick up the shipment yourself?

    5. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      It’s literally front page news on every outlet. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but the scope of this issue is so vast that it’s affecting almost everyone in the world in some fashion. If someone yells at you, fire back with “You will not speak to me that way, please control yourself or I will be forced to end the call.”

      2. Tradd*

        Actually what I did was hold phone away from my ear as he was screaming. When he stopped to take a breath, I told him I would get back to him this afternoon, regardless of if we had more info or not. I was polite. He was spluttering. I said good bye and hung up.

    6. AnonToday*

      Ironically, we were spared the Windows update issue by a power outage that lasted almost 8 hours. Which caused other issues of course.

    7. BellaStella*

      Well I have been tracking this since 6am my time (CEST) and it is a huge mess making news globally now, 13 hrs later. I am sorry these people are rude to you. Try to ignore it and also ignore the temptation to say, “I told you so” when they figure out the news is real.

    8. periwinkle*

      Ah, memories. Once upon a time I worked in tech support for a software/hardware manufacturer in Silicon Valley. One Monday morning we had more than a few irate phone calls – “I called last week and no one answered! Where were you guys?”

      Well, we had to wait until our building was inspected and deemed safe for use. The previous Tuesday had been October 17, 1989. “Sorry, we had a huge earthquake. Perhaps you saw it on the news?”

      (to be fair, a lot of people back then were unaware that Silicon Valley was close to San Francisco, but still…)

    9. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I’ve sent those news articles today to someone who couldn’t understand why a proposal could not be turned in via a supported software, along with a statement from the software service themselves that they were down. And no, they wanted it submitted through the software, because reasons. (I’ll give them that they may be legit reasons…but if the service is down, you can stomp your feet all you want, its not happening today. You get today or through the service, regardless what you want.)

      The stupid and unprofessional are real high today, unfortunately. I hope the idiots chill for you.

    10. Always Tired*

      I have had several phone calls with flustered SCAs (the elevator fire detection system won’t shut up and the FSA & COBRA portals are down) who all sound at the end of their rope and I was just like “…clowdstrike?” and when they said yes just told them to hang in there and I’ll wait for updates. Cause none of you caused this.

      What I’m saying is: hang in there, bestie. you don’t deserve such treatment, but I appreciate all your hard work.

    11. goddessoftransitory*

      “Yes, Customer, I MADE UP a global outage just to screw you over! That’s how we roll here at Tradd Inc.!”

      FFS.

        1. Digital Hubbub*

          I expect if you had that kind of power, a suspicious number of your more unreasonable clients would land on Pluto with instructions to walk back (and, y’know, supplies and air, cos you sound like a nice person.) And with anger management courses, for something to do on the way…
          Sorry to hear you’re dealing with unreasonable people again! Thank you for your insights into customs too.

          1. Tradd*

            Unreasonable people are quite common in my industry. The just in time inventory thing definitely is NOT a good thing.

            And speaking of customs…yesterday they needed to get a form returned to me that they had signed (wet signature). Officer I spoke with claimed they didn’t have a working scanner in the office. Given this is one of the larger offices, I suspect officer was lazy and didn’t want to walk around the building to find another one. Or maybe they’re restricted to using what’s in their department. He wanted to FAX it to me. When I told him we don’t have a fax anymore, he suggested we come and pick up the paperwork in person. They’re half the country away from me! I asked if he had any coworkers with a work issued smartphone. If so, I could walk him through scanning to PDF with the phone. JPEG sucks for documents. He was astonished you could do that. A few minutes later, I had the form. LOL

    13. Working On My Night Cheese*

      Ugh, I am so sorry. I remember getting chewed out by a customer on 9/11 when I was trying to explain that their package could not be shipped next-day air because all planes were grounded. They just didn’t get it.

    14. merida*

      Ugh, I am so sorry! People are unreal. May you have a much much better weekend ahead of you!

      1. Tradd*

        Thank you! I have a bit of work to take home with me (hot air freight to clear), but I’m otherwise going to spend it reading and being a veg!

        1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

          This made me smile. No idea what it means, but it made me mentally visualize trying to deliver orders via hot air ballooon. I hope you have a relaxing weekend.

    15. Peanut Hamper*

      This reminds of the people who were complaining that their video game orders were being delayed because of the Tohoku/Fukushima incident. Yes, I’m sorry you’ll have to continue to wait to play your game, which is infinitely worse than thousands of people dying. Oh, no!

      People can be selfish and inconsiderate and entitled. I have nothing but sympathy for you.

  19. Tiny clay insects*

    For those of you who own your own business (not a bricks-and-mortar), how did you know when it was time to hire someone else? And how did you know when you could safely step back from working at your 9-5 job? I feel like I’m at this weird point with my travel business where I’m completely overwhelmed and overworked but can’t tell if it would be sustainable to either hire someone else (and I don’t even know how that would work–I want to do it right, you know?), or if I can (and do I want to?) step back from my teaching job? I need to figure out my life.

    1. PX*

      The first question is can you afford to hire someone else. Thats an easy numbers question – what’s your revenue, are you profitable etc. The second is usually when (as you say) you reach the point of not being able to manage it effectively due to other competing demands. At which point, it helps to figure out what things take up the most time and can you outsource those.

      1. Tiny clay insects*

        We are profitable. (I say “we” because my husband and I run it together.) Last year went really well, this year is shaping up to be good but not as good as last year (probably because I’m exhausted and hustling a little less). But I have no idea how to, like, make sure we pay someone correctly, do things right taxwise, etc. I also worry that what if we pay someone and then that uses all our profit and I don’t bring any additional money and we are in a worse place? The problem with my thinking is that it always leads to me grinding myself into dust working too much….

        1. PX*

          Based on your other comment Id suggest finding some resources to read up and educate yourself on. People on here have recommended local council business bureau/support type places, personally I would look online for resources for small businesses or entrepreneurs and start there. Maybe even your bank if you have a local branch might be able to provide support.

          But all your questions to me sound like ones that can be answered with research or a session with a proper finance/business coach.

        2. Two Dog Night*

          You can definitely use Quickbooks to do payroll, including submitting payroll taxes (at least if you’re in the US). But you might also want to hire an account to help with that–it would cost more, but this is one area where you really don’t want to make mistakes.

          If you did hire someone, would that free up enough of your time that you could bring in more business without exhausting yourself? Seems to me that’s the crux of the question.

    2. Just One Idea of Many*

      I know not everyone likes him…but just yesterday I heard Dave Ramsey on the radio talking with someone who was trying to figure out when to jump ship totally from their day job to their entrepreneurial venture. So this is just one idea. The advice was to (a) have a good emergency fund of 6 months plus an additional 6 months, and (b) to be making about 75% of what the day job makes in the new business. This was also for someone who was single (so no other income to depend on), and of course depends on how much more than your living expenses your day job makes, etc. They likened it to NOT jumping ship, but pulling aside to the dock and just stepping off.

      1. Tiny clay insects*

        While I’m not gonna take Ramsey’s advice about managing my money (he can pry my excellent 3% cash back credit cards from my cold, dead hands), I really like that he has a metric for that. Because honestly I think that’s what I need. I didn’t go to business school (my husband and I are professors, and not in businessy subjects!), and I don’t know, like, what the signs are.

        So having something concrete like that is actually really helpful. We aren’t there with our savings but we aren’t hugely far off, and our business made more than my teaching salary last year, by a fair amount. (It’s harder to estimate the numbers since it was two of us doing the work, not just me, but I fully handle one aspect of the business, plus parts of other aspects, and my aspect alone brought in, actually, 75% of my teaching salary. So maybe it’s not as hard to estimate as I thought. :-) )

        I like knowing that quantifiable metrics exist. My husband and I are fairly risk averse with out money, and we want to make sure we are set up well for retirement (we will get a pension from our teaching job but it isn’t enough on its own), and we want enough cushion to help out my young-adult step kids if need be, etc.

        So, thank you. Despite me not being a fan of Dave Ramsey generally, I really like this and am going to seek out more info, and also check with other sources, too.

    3. Jen*

      One other point—if you want to step back from teaching and you’re overwhelmed, would it make sense to do that before hiring someone else? You would have more time to devote to the business and wouldn’t be paying for someone else’s salary out of the profits. Not sure what your teaching situation is like, but if the business fails you’d probably be able to teach again somewhere.

  20. HR DOO*

    I’m really just venting. I strongly dislike “it’s not my job” responses and I’m getting it a lot from a department admin. Their manager is in the process of managing them out, but I’m at the point where I just want to send them their job description and say “actually, it is your job.”

    Ughhhhh

    Admittedly, their manager is not the best at confrontations with strong personalities. I am working with the manager’s manager on this, but still!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      When I first started reading your comment, my immediate thought was “But it’s not their job,” but apparently it is is their job. Yikes! I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I thought the same. Is this person “not my job” at you (OP) or just in general with everyone?

        My department had an admin for a while who seemed confused as to whether she was the department admin or the ED’s admin. It was fine with her if the ED told her to do something, but it wasn’t “her job” if anyone else did. The ED let it go for way too long because…well… it wasn’t a problem for him and the rest of us were just “being mean” to her. Once it became a problem for him, it started getting addressed, and then she left.

    2. But maybe not*

      So, maybe it isn’t your place to send them their job description and say “actually, it is your job,” but their manager certainly should. Even if they’ve already done it before. They should be doing it pretty much every time.

      I had a direct report who wasn’t doing their job and I found it’s because they truly didn’t think it was their job. We had to go through their job description line by line and talk about what it meant until I could be sure they understood what their job was and that they were being held accountable to that. They ended up leaving after a few months, but at least they knew they couldn’t gloss over responsibilities they thought were beneath them or out of scope.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      What does the person say when you tell them that it is in their job description?

      1. HR DOO*

        I’ve only done this once, at a point of frustration, and they got snappy. The employee has been having some attitude issues this year, and I’ve already had to speak to them about this previously. Their manager is in the process of managing them out, but they’re stretching out the time schedule of the performance discussions and the manager’s manager is already working with them on this. As HR, I can only guide the manager and they still need to do the performance managing.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Spinoff: I really dislike managers who don’t like/aren’t good at confrontation to the point that they don’t manage effectively.

      1. HR DOO*

        Unfortunately, the industry I’m in is full of them. The only way up is into managerial positions. So if you’re really, really good at the functional aspect of your job you’ll be moved into a managerial position by the C-Suite, and then we have to train these new managers on how to manage people.

      2. JS*

        Same. Especially when managers are content to let everyone else not getting paid to manage the issue deal with it.

        1. Cinn*

          At an old job I was once asked by my line manager to manage my current project manager. The cheek of which still confounds me to this day. (And it wasn’t like I’d ever said I’d like to try and get some managerial experience, in fact I’d actually said the opposite in that I had no interest in managing.)

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have been lucky to only have a similar situation once. I had to start sending my request to her manager and her.
      First time iresorted to that, I blandly addressed the issue before the problem personhad a chance to refuse. Something like this:
      “Hi William, here is the data for the monthly XYZ task due Friday.
      Hi Charles, if this is no longer William’s responsibility please ask William to train the new person, and let me know who that is.”

    6. Quinalla*

      I’d just send to their manager and make it their problem.

      Or you can play the act like you don’t understand what they mean “Oh, do you mean you are too busy to take this on? Let me see if manager can prioritize this in front of something else.” Sound like a headache, but at this point it is really the manager who is the problem.

  21. Oh So Very Anon*

    OK, I realize there was a big discussion earlier this week about hot weather clothing vs the arctic office settings. I know that dressing for an interview has many layers of intersectionality, as well as all the unspoken cultural norms

    AND AT THE SAME TIME

    I had an applicant who arrived wearing shorts and at-shirt. For the record, he was not interviewing for a lifeguard position. This was for an office job.

    It was for a llama writing position. When asked about writing samples, he replied, “Oh, was I supposed to bring those?” And the final plot twist: Internal applicant. Dude should have known better.

    The sad part is: he came in second place out of all the applicants. One guy had the personality of moss. One guy sat through the entire in person interview with his eyes closed and never actually answered the questions we asked him.

    The “winning” applicant showed up on time, prepared with writing samples, note taking equipment, questions, and pants. He asked questions about more than the salary and benefits, and answered the questions posed to him.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Whoa, I’m a writer and have been for years, and I would NOT show up to an interview with writing samples. I would expect you to have already read my samples on my portfolio website, which is on my resume. If an interviewer expected me to have them in hand, I would consider it pretty rude, like they couldn’t be bothered to do their due diligence before I walked through the door. I have never, ever been asked to have writing samples for the interview.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I have been asked ABOUT writing samples at an interview, but the expectation is usually that I will have some to provide afterward by email or a website to point people at.

        That said, I wouldn’t expect someone to have read my work before the interview; hiring managers rarely have that much time to prep.

      2. mreasy*

        I agree that in general, candidates are no longer commonly expected to have printouts of the work they’ve submitted ahead. And for a writing job I would think it was weird not to have been asked to submit samples ahead!

      3. Oh So Very Anon*

        For the record: There was no website on his resume. I have always brought samples and a copy of my resume to every interview. Suspenders and a belt.

        What type of writing do you do?

        1. Morgan Proctor*

          You really should have asked for samples in the job listing. I am 38 and I have never, ever brought either samples or my resume to any interview, nor have I even been asked for either during the interview.

          I work in the entertainment industry, but I have also done marketing/advertising copywriting. I’ve never been asked to bring samples to the interview. It’s standard to submit samples during the application process.

          1. Oh So Very Anon*

            And therein lies the difference. We work in manufacturing and engineering. I’m glad it works for you and where you are.

            1. Manufacturing Writing*

              I write for heavy equipment manufacturing and industrial automation (CMMS, etc.) and have for over 20 years. I don’t have physical writing samples.

              Part of my job is to manage the print vendors. First articles are shipped to the QA team at one branch, and final articles are shipped to our field employees. I’d have to special order copies for headquarters if I wanted writing samples, at a significant additional cost.

              Your interview process is the problem here. You need to have applicants submit a portfolio or individual sample files as part of the application.

            2. Morgan Proctor*

              Sorry, you still need to ask for samples beforehand, it is SO standard across all industries. A few years ago I went through several rounds of interviews for a technical writer role for a construction company. They still asked for samples beforehand, and when I showed up for the first interview, the interviewer had printed out my samples and resume.

              I think your hiring practices are at fault here. You didn’t end up with a single viable candidate. You’re complaining about your #1 pick publicly on this website. I think you can do better.

              1. Oh So Very Anon*

                I’m complaining about 2-4.
                The rest is a fair cop. My company is behind the times.

            3. Seeking Second Childhood*

              25-year senior tech writer.
              Writing samples brought IF they are requested.

          2. Dread Pirate Roberts*

            Yeah, it’s probably been 20 years since I’ve brought a hard copy resume and samples to an interview. I have a portfolio site on my resume but many places ask for samples in the application process, and some a written test as part of the interview, if not both.

      4. Ricotta*

        I haven’t even HAD print writing samples in over a decade. I’d have to take screenshots and go to a Kinko’s to get color copies made.

      5. BringSamples*

        I’ve been a writer for more than 30 years and I’ve never gone to an interview without writing samples. When interviewing writers I’d look askance at someone with your attitude.

        The samples I have available online are different from the ones I bring with me. Many of the paper samples are things I’m not allowed to post online. Some I’m not allowed to let someone take out of my sight. Some I can let people photocopy- not scan – as long as I recite a spiel at them. Every writer I know has a lot of non-public samples they’re only allowed to use in person and that come with restrictions and requirements to recite rules at people who look at them.

        In most cases I have explicitly been asked to bring writing samples to interviews or asked to provide specific samples that came up during the interview later if they aren’t among those I have with me onsite. For remote interviews I explain I have limited samples available online and can provide a wider array if we meet in person.

        Even if all of your samples are online, your attitude is still offputting and I would still expect you to have some stuff with you for discussion in the interview if warranted.

    2. PX*

      This…sounds like a bad pool overall…which also raises some questions about how screening was done? Did they all seem like good candidates based on CV/phone screens?

      1. Oh So Very Anon*

        I work in a tech heavy area where there have been a lot of layoffs. We’ve noticed that we are getting a lot of writing-adjacent people who think they qualify.

    3. Fluffy Fish*

      sometimes internal candidates do the worst because they assume they don’t have to really compete.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      One guy sat through the entire in person interview with his eyes closed and never actually answered the questions we asked him.

      What the H*ll?

      1. Oh So Very Anon*

        Oh, he responded. At length. But the response had little relation to the question.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Is no one else going to comment on the fact he arrived to a job interview wearing shorts? Samples or no samples, I would’ve turned him around at the door.

      1. Uranus Wars*

        I know; the focus is on the samples but the attire is what stumps me. Especially from an internal applicant? Maybe he thought he didn’t have to try as hard? And if he is internal he’d know they are behind in how they do things so maybe he’d have asked if he needed to bring anything?

        OP sorry you are going through this, though. Definitely frustrating. Sounds like if #1 doesn’t accept you might need to go back to the drawing board – or prep your internal candidate and offer him a 2nd interview and ask him to give you samples or a virtual portfolio?

        1. PotatoRock*

          If shorts in general are acceptable at your office (and you mentioned tech; not all but probably 25% of the male engineers wear shorts in summer at my engineering office), I can kind of see it – it’s closer to “not dressing up for an internal interview”

          1. InterviewWear*

            I wear shorts and tank tops to work. I wear a suit, or at least a dress/nice blouse and long skirt to interviews.

            I once had someone show up for an interview in a T-shirt and jeans. I went ahead with the interview and later hot yelled at by my boss for wasting my time talking to him. I just can’t imagine shorts….

    6. BellaStella*

      Ahahahah this is brilliant: “The “winning” applicant showed up on time, prepared with writing samples, note taking equipment, questions, and pants.” Love this sentence. Am glad you got a good new hire.

    7. Ready for the weekend*

      I’m a writer who has a closet full of office casual clothes. Happy to send you my resume and work samples. :)

    8. Reebee*

      Commiserating and I love this: “One guy had the personality of moss.”

      But I’m sorry this is happening for you.

  22. mymotherwasahamster*

    Hi all, I’m a US citizen earning a Master’s in compliance & integrity management in Germany. As part of my thesis on “AI in Companies’ Ethics & Compliance Function,” I’m comparing German & US perspectives on the (anticipated) use of AI as a compliance tool.

    It’s a bit of a long shot, but this commentariat is great so why not. Is there anyone here in a US-based compliance role who’d be open to a 30-45 minute interview on the opportunities and challenges they’re seeing as AI becomes more integrated into the compliance sphere? (I’m all squared away with German interview partners.) Results will be anonymized.

    What I’m especially interested in is not only how AI plays a role in a company’s compliance division but also if, and why or why not. For example, why has a company opted for or against the use of AI? Which resources did the company draw on in this decision-making process? Which tasks lend themselves to AI and why? Which hurdles stand in the way of implementing AI and what are the risks? And what role does company culture play in these deliberations?

    If this is something you’d be open to, it would be helpful to conduct interviews by the end of July or early August at the latest, and of course I’d arrange my schedule around yours. Please email me at k2p1k2p1@gmail.com.

    Thanks all, happy Friday!

    1. Tio*

      Do we have to be named in the writing? I’d have to clear with my company if so, and may limit what I can speak on. But I’m a US customs broker in international trade compliance.

      1. mymotherwasahamster*

        Nope, all responses will be written up as anonymous. If that works, I think the easiest way to coordinate is via the email address above—I’d love to speak with you!

  23. Quartermaster*

    How to deal with coworkers telling me I can’t get a new job/go on vacation? My work has been really stressful lately due to a huge change with an outside contractor that I mostly deal with. I didn’t love this job to begin with, but with all the changes my job search has kicked back into high gear. My coworkers value the work I do, which is nice, but they are constantly saying things like “don’t you leave over this!” and I have no idea how to respond. Similarly, whenever I take any time off, the day I come back everyone is telling me what a mess it was while I was gone. I think this is supposed to make me feel valued, but it truly makes me want to turn around and never come back and I don’t know how to respond.

    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Do you have to respond? How about non-commitally smile and nod, and then change the subject.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      You don’t need to respond. You can just smile, or shrug, or both. They’re the crazy ones, not you.

    3. Sneaky Squirrel*

      If your coworkers are saying it, it might just be smart to take it as praise and ignore it. If your management is saying this or if you’re feeling this way, then you need to have a conversation with your boss about ensuring your team has the capacity to take on tasks when you’re out.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Ignore them. This is ridiculous and doesn’t merit a response.

      I hope you’re searching.

      1. Jen*

        I have a similar reaction when people at my job say how glad they are to have me. It annoys me to no end because internally I’m thinking about how I’m still not seeing a raise.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          Is your manager aware of how highly-valued you are by the team? This feels like a strong position for negotiating that raise. When they tell you this, ask if they’re willing to come with you when you ask the boss for a raise. If they aren’t, their praise will look pretty empty, and if they are, you know their feelings are real. Try starting this when someone whose work you value asks – you can offer to come with them for their raise request. You are both then witnesses to how the boss responded to each of you . . . come to think of it, maybe delay this approach until we see whether the NLRB (which enforces legal protections for this kind of concerted activity) is gutted.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yes, this. If a lot of people are saying this, I’m wondering if there’s some other toxicity in this office that the coworkers are also reacting to.

    6. Joielle*

      I was getting a lot of this a couple months ago because of a massive project I ended up in charge of despite it being wildly outside of my job description or area of expertise. It ended up going REALLY well but I was definitely stressed about it and a lot of people said some variation of “please don’t leave!” Little did they know, I was already applying elsewhere for a long list of reasons and this big stressful project was just the icing on the cake.

      Most of the time I just laughed or said “ha, I’m living the dream” or something vague. A couple of times when I was REALLY at the end of my rope I said “you never know!” Even with this (I thought) pretty clear indication that I was ready to quit, people were uniformly shocked when I announced my resignation.

      I think they really are just trying to say how much you’re valued and how much they sympathize with the stress, but I agree that it’s super grating. Even more grating when it’s coming from the person who’s causing the stress.

    7. Future*

      It’s probably just joking/praise! No reasonable person would actually mean that, and unless everyone at your job is nuts, they would be happy for you to be moving on to greener pastures. (And if they aren’t, their opinions are pretty low-value.)

  24. NCA*

    Anyone else on the IT side of the Crowdstrike issue today? Whomph it’s zany out here. At least I’m just a report monkey now

    1. CL*

      It’s chaos. The CrowdStrike problem is bad but then it’s also figuring out if all the other issues are related or coincidental.

    2. Nicki Name*

      Thankfully my company doesn’t use Cloudstrike itself, but several of our vendors are in a world of hurt.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My company was planning on switching to crowdstrike next month.

        I assume that plan is at the very least delayed.

    3. Choggy*

      Yep, while my company was not directly affected, some of our vendors who support our customers were. They have been able to get their systems working in a fairly short amount of time.

    4. Anon in IL*

      I read the news and fully expected to get the blue screen of death this morning. I run the Crowdstrike endpoint sensor on a Windows 10 laptop. Yet everything is working normally (fingers crossed). Does it only affect desktops? Grateful if any IT person can weigh in on why this would be.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Several of my coworkers are/were affected on their work laptops. I put my computer to sleep rather than restarting, and I got on just fine this morning.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        It definitely impacts laptops, alas.

        Theoretically Crowdstrike have already resolved the issue, so if you don’t have it I thiiiiink you should be in the clear? (Caveat: I do not work in IT, I work in an adjacent field and am just a nerd.)

        The current problem seems to be that the impacted machines are crashing too soon to get on the internet and download the update. In that case in order to fix it you have to boot into safe mode/recovery and delete a file, which requires having actual hands on the machine and isn’t something a non-tech-savvy user can necessarily do without instruction. So the going is extremely slow.

    5. Tiny clay insects*

      Thank goodness, no. I am in the travel industry, though, and I cannot overstate how relieved I am that I don’t have any clients flying today.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        OOF. Thoughts and prayers for my former colleagues and customers at a leisure travel wholesaler.

    6. Nia*

      It has not been great. We’re back up and running but now we have to fix all the processes that were supposed to run last night. Our company was nice enough to buy us lunch though so that’s something I guess.

      1. Anon for today*

        Yes. The answer is very much yes. I work in Crowdstrike Support. It’s been a FUN day.

    8. Blarg*

      I know this is wrong/bad, but I was kind of sad that my computer/network worked just fine this morning. Especially cause the heat wave in DC has finally lifted and it is quite nice out.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        If you’re not in charge of fixing the messes it’s causing it’s got a bit of a snow day vibe, doesn’t it?

        1. AnonForThisOne*

          My cloud infrastructure at work has been down since Tuesday (they are working on it but it’s slow going) so we’ve all been working by going directly to the vendor websites we use.

          Today some of those vendor websites were also down.

          Not sure if snow day is the right description…but I watched all of Buying London on Netflix.

    9. GythaOgden*

      It apparently affected National Health Service clinical and GP facilities, although not our facilities business, luckily enough. After local utilities issues — a water main leak needed fixing at 3am and a power cut last week — I’m glad I dodged that bullet.

  25. Pyanfar*

    Do you have other roles internally that would be a better fit with their strengths? I’ve found that “You are great/really good at X and Y and we are wasting your talents in a role that is 90% Z.” can be a good opening to a conversation about what they want to do next/after that. Then maybe you can shift this role to more X and Y and see where that goes. Don’t be afraid to remind them of your EAP (if you have one) or that their insurance coverage covers all their health, not just annual checkups.

  26. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    Career pivoters, especially those who went from regular employee to starting their own business/self-employment, I’d love to hear your stories. The good and the bad.

    1. Bitte Meddler*

      The biggest hurdle from me was all the legal and compliance stuff. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but there wasn’t one single place I could go to to find everything relevant to my business. My local Small Business Administration office was a good start but, several years in, I was still finding things I didn’t know I should have known.

      Also, make sure you set your business up so that it offers you legal and financial protection from any business liabilities. So, don’t be a sole proprietor, but become an LLC, LLP, or corporation. (LLC’s and LLP’s have less reporting requirements, fyi).

      1. TitleAgent*

        Second the advice on estimated taxes. My accountant and I huddle before each payment is due so that I remit an amount that is based on my income for the period. It’s a pain, but so are penalties for underpayment.

    2. Miette*

      Your user name: I love it!

      Not sure if you’re looking for advice or war stories. Here’s some of the former:

      Quarterly estimated tax is a b*tch, and it’s so much more than what you’ve ever had withheld before, so plan accordingly. By that I mean: make sure your rate covers it, and that you are saving enough of what you earn back to pay taxes next year.

      My rule of thumb for rates to charge: double what your hourly rate is at work. More if you feel you can swing it.

      Understand your monthly expenses so you know how much you have to bill/work in order to cover it.

      Speak with an accountant about whether or not to remain a sole proprietor or set up an LLC. I am a freelance marketer and my bro (a CPA) advised me it wasn’t necessary. I do have liability insurance, however, just in case.

      Do track things you spend for tax time–though most folks will use the standard deduction, you never know. Also, it’s best to have a dedicated credit card for biz expenses to make that easier.

      Speaking of taxes, to the extent you can, set up a a SEP-IRA for yourself so you don’t derail retirement savings. The money you put in there is tax deductible, whereas other IRAs may not be. This will make a big difference at tax time, and if you’re saving to a Roth or other IRA anyway, it’s better to at least have the money you’re saving/investing be tax deductible, right?

      Good luck!

  27. This is Fine*

    Hugs and solidarity to anyone else dealing with the global outages today- particularly from a customer service/support standpoint.

    1. merida*

      +100 For real, I cannot imagine the number of stressful work days throughout the globe that are happening today because of the outage!

  28. Disheartened Non-Profit Worker*

    Hi, folx. Part question, part commiseration post. Question: Why do employers (a non-profit, in this instance) not just give good employees a raise/promotion, rather than lose them and have to go through the trouble of hiring and training a potentially worse replacement?  Do employers know this, or should employees send clearer signals?  And, once you’ve left that job for a new opportunity, how do you get over it?

    Background: I was high-level at Old Non-profit and had been there for years.  I was given empty promises of a raise and promotion for nearly a year, mostly during a time of difficult transition which I helped navigate, including taking on increased responsibilities.  I made the ask (to the Executive Director and Board) clear, though I never out-right threatened to leave.  Naturally, after 10+ months of empty promises, I started looking for a new job.  I was (relatively) quickly hired elsewhere in the same field for a 30% pay increase, the title I wanted, and the chance to use some skills that had been atrophying.  The new place is great!  And, since I’d grown as much as I could, moving elsewhere was objectively better for my career.  

    All’s well that ends well, right?  But I just do not understand – rationally – why the old non-profit would not just pay me more.  I would have stayed, honestly, for 5% more. (Some of this was inertia and my own risk-aversion, but I also loved the mission and am location-bound).  Without getting into the details, I have very specialized technical skills and had a wealth of institutional knowledge, plus, even though not part of my job, I was oddly good at fundraising. They’ve had trouble replacing me, I’ve heard.  Rationally, it just makes so much more sense to give me peanuts and keep me there.

    I don’t think the usual explanations for not giving me a raise/promotion apply.  Even though I was high-level and we were in a difficult transition, I made it very clear I did not want the top job, and the Board and staff seriously loved me.  That’s to say, I wasn’t pushed out.  The budget was tight, but the funds were there.  And I was very well-positioned to help the organization go in the post-transition new direction (due to specialized skills). There just does not seem to be a clear explanation for all the foot-dragging.

    Obviously I am having an emotional reaction to this.  Even though leaving was the best thing for my career, I think I felt undervalued and under-appreciated for a long time at Old Non-profit.  So, I think I may be having trouble emotionally moving on (hence a post in an online fora!).

    Thanks for any help making sense of this or any advice for moving forward.

    1. Leave Hummus Alone*

      I feel you and this is the million dollar question in a lot of industries, not just nonprofits. But I’m a lifelong nonprofit worker so I commiserate. To me, it’s leadership being penny wise, pound foolish, and thinking that people won’t transition out for better pay/life-balance/etc. etc. because they Believe in the Mission! And yes, we’re all as idealist as the next person, but passion doesn’t pay the bills!

      My advice is to work through the hurt and feeling under-valued/unappreciated because it can sometimes rear its ugly head in your new job. I learned that the only person who is going to watch out for me is me the hard way too, and I’m now thankfully at a place that pays fairly, with a great boss, and a mission that is important to me (and the world!). Sending you lots of appreciation for you being you!

      1. SansaStark*

        You’re very right about the MISSION! I’ve also found that sometimes they’re from the profession or community being served which means their skillsets aren’t always aligned with running a good “business.”

      2. ferrina*

        I agree with all this, especially the “penny-wise, pound-foolish” mentality.

        I’ve seen many managers pat themselves on the back for keeping budgets low, then being surprised pikachu when their underpaid workers leave. I’ve seen managers trod out all kinds of excuses for keeping their workers underpaid- “you aren’t senior enough” (said while telling the person about the new higher-level responsibilities they need to do, but why they can’t have the title/raise of the usual person doing those things); “we’re in a time of transition, but we’ll figure it out when things settle down” (then by the time things ‘settle down’ months later, there’s a new reason); “but you just got a raise!” (said after a company-wide COLA that didn’t even match inflation).

        Most of the time, it seems like the manager is justifying why they picked the easier battle. They didn’t want to fight for their people to receive good pay, but they also want to see themself as a good person. So they mentally find reasons to justify why their person doesn’t deserve a raise/can’t get a raise for reasons beyond the manager’s control. These people are so in their own head, that they sort of forget that their employees have their own needs and priorities. They also see the people leaving as one-off instances rather than a pattern, because again, it allows their brain to avoid the cognitive dissonance of “I’m a good person” vs “my workers are leaving because I won’t pay them their worth.”

        It sucks to be under-valued and under-appreciated. And for me, it sucked even more to realize that I let myself be under-valued for so long. But it’s always clearer in hindsight and with more experience (even if you have years of experience, if you have never been in a role where you’ve been strung along, it can still be hard to recognize it as it happens).

      3. Rainy*

        There’s a Journal of Personality & Social Psychology article from 2020 by Kim, Campbell, Shepherd, and Kay called “Understanding Contemporary Forms of Exploitation: Attributions of Passion Serve to Legitimize the Poor Treatment of Workers”. Basically, they ran a bunch of studies where they set up scenarios for people and then asked them if they thought it was exploitative to ask for extra unpaid work and/or demand tasks unconnected to the actual role from variously described workers, and they found that when a worker in a scenario was described in terms that equalled them being passionate about their work, the study participant was significantly more likely to say that exploitative requirements were justified by the worker’s passion.

        Compelling stuff for those of us in fields where “passion” is one of the unspoken requirements.

    2. SansaStark*

      My old job was like this. Everyone had either started less than 3 years ago, or had been there since time began. That’s a whole demographic of mid-career level people that they were missing. Everyone else left because of their overly-rigid salary/promotion/title change policy. It wasn’t a secret why they were hemorrhaging good people and why the replacements weren’t great, but they just absolutely refused to change how things had been done. I was also strung along and would have stayed for such a small amount of money, but (thankfully) an offer that I couldn’t refuse landed in my lap. I left a couple years ago and have a better title and far more money than I ever could have had at the old company. I miss a couple of the people there, but overall, I’m so much happier at a place that rewards employees for their excellent work with titles and (more importantly) money.

      It’s so hard to wrap your mind around these illogical choicest that these orgs make, but unless there’s a massive culture change that would probably take years, this is just how they will continue to operate.

    3. I'm late. My flight was cancelled*

      I’m with you. We also went through a crazy transition of losing 3 staff and taking 9-mos to replace them, including a Dev Director. When they hired the new staff they were so bad, I left, and then they all left because they couldn’t do their jobs or backfill mine. They also never re-filled my spot even now 4-mos later.

      I recently ended a contract with them to bring their fundraising activities to current, and train a temp (with ZERO experience). When I told them my previous rate expired and quoted a new rate, $20/hr more, as I was training a temp (with ZERO experience) vs a staff member, they didn’t want to continue. I’m like, ‘You’re going into a new campaign in 4 weeks with 1,000 gifts that need processing. You think you’re going to use transition docs alone (that I wrote, so I know they’re good), to get a temp prepared for that?”

      Also, today would have been my 3rd anniversary but I left a few months ago. I was re-affirmed that they’re no good for me anymore and I can’t go back again.

      I’m with you in so many ways. I was underpaid all along and when I said, “I would come back permanently but this is what I’d need to do so (a mere $4k/year).” they said no. So they’ll hire a new person, below the market rate (again), and expect big things from them going into the end of year fundraising (suuurrreeee)

    4. MsM*

      Could have been the combination of tight budget and transitional difficulties made them reluctant to dip into whatever cushion they had. Could have been they were holding out to get new leadership in place and see how they wanted to structure things. Could have been they just took it for granted you loved the mission more than you wanted the raise. (Something tells me at least part of the reason they’re having trouble filling the role is that they’re still not willing to pay for the qualifications they need, or the amount of work they’re asking.)

      Regardless, you’re out now, and you know what signs to look for if future employers don’t seem to be appropriately valuing your contributions. Focus on that.

    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      This is so common it is definitely not you.

      There was a major blow up where I work a couple of years ago because in order to hire they just had to start paying more. So people who had 10 years experience and a senior position were being paid less than new hires right out of college at the entry level position.

      Company risk/reward scenarios have rarely taken into account staffing changes. They never believe anyone would actually leave.

      1. Folly wants a cracker*

        I was in that position. As a specialist, I was hired at $42k in 2021. Went up to $44k and left at $46k. A Coordinator position (should be equal but do not) starts at $43-$47k while a new Administrator starts at $50k; it would take me several years of COLA at 2% to get to $50k which is what I could start at on the market, today.

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      It does happen especially if someone grew into a new position but still gets treated like they’re more junior. But I also think this is a narrative that the internet has blown way out of proportion. You think it’s way more common than it is because everyone who’s seen it posts about it and makes a youtube video. On the flip side, no one ever answers the key question: if job hopping is how you get raises, why do so many peoples’ salaries level off at a certain level? One thing that’s frustrated me is people saying they “have to” job hop for raises but their salaries seem in line with people who’ve stuck it out at one or two employers. Maybe they got there quicker/more easily? Who knows.

      Also it’s a flawed way to view things because yes, you get a raise at the new job. But now you need to do some combination of: 1) learn a new job, 2) upskill yourself 3) deal with risk involved (is new boss actually crazy etc.) 4) maybe train in person for a while even if it’s WFH. Which raises the question of, are you actually getting paid more for the same work, or just for the same title?

      My POV is from places that always gave raises, over 20 years; we don’t post online saying “hey got a raise, just wanted to let everyone know”

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Sounds like you lucked out with your management and employer, but your experience is far from universal. Lots of employers are happy to take advantage, ask for more work for the same pay, or make empty promises about raises that never materialize.

        Disheartened Non-Profit isn’t talking about a ‘narrative’, they’re talking about their own experience. You’re contrasting it with your own experience and declaring that your experience is the more universal. It’s not.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          FWIW I worked at fortune 1000 companies before switching to a smaller company so I wasn’t just talking about me personally

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        See, and my POV is that every single substantial raise (more than a COLA plus 1-3%) I’ve ever gotten came when I changed jobs. Same with every single friend, acquaintance, and co-worker I’ve ever known.

        And, sure, my peers at my last job may eventually move from $95,000 to $125,000 with my old company’s typical 3-5% annual raises and 10% promotion raises, but in the meantime I’m socking a LOT more into my 401k, paying down student loans & a mortgage, and still have enough left over to do all the fun things I couldn’t do at $95,000.

        I’ll have earned way more than them in the years it takes them to catch up to me, both in salary and in interest earned on investments I make with that additional salary.

        I just did some back-of-the-napkin math and — assuming 4% annual raises and a 10% promotion raise in Year 3 — it’ll take my old coworkers six years to catch up to where I am right now.

        But, of course, after six years I, too, will have received annual raises and probably a promotion raise, and therefore will be even further ahead than the people who choose to keep working at my old company.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Right but I’m always what happens when someone hits market rate. Let’s say 100K is the avg mid-career salary for a Business Analyst in your area. What then? No other employer in your state is offering > 100K.

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            This is why a lot of people move into management, even if they aren’t good at it or interested in it; they’ve maxed out the salary ladder for their field in their area.

          2. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Then… you’ve hit that ceiling faster than you otherwise would have? That’s a good thing, that’s a lot more money over the same time period. Sure, there’s nowhere further up to go, but if my options are to make $100k for 10 years ($1M) or to start at $50k and work up to $100k at the end of 10 years ($0.75M), that’s a quarter of a million dollars difference. Hitting the ceiling faster may be *frustrating,* which is an emotional problem, but it sure isn’t a financial problem.

            Additionally, salary for existing employees often *doesn’t* keep up with the market. Allison just had did a post about negotiating wage at a new job, because that’s the opportunity for you to get the biggest change in pay.

      3. Tio*

        I’ve seen both. It’s largely about companies, and I think you’re reverse confirmation biasing the way you think other people are.

        I’ve seen this so much, in pretty much every single job I’ve had. The first job I left over pay, I know they had to have hired the person who replaced me in at more than I was making, because I knew who went there, and she had more experience and management experience I didn’t have. The second job I left partially over pay, they told me they had a guy who they finally gave a title to after he “proved” he could do the higher level job… by doing it at a lower salary and title for two years. They said this in a “You just have to earn it!” kind of way, and I told them to their face it sounded more like they didn’t want to pay people for the job they were doing until they had to. It took them a year to replace me.

        The job I am in now deliberately pays a bit over market level and does market salary adjustments every year. We almost never have people leaving for pay reasons. But the “We won’t give you a raise until you leave” bit is actually fairly common.

      4. Rainy*

        I think this is one of those things that if you work at places that give raises, consider cost of living for the area, and compensate appropriately, you just haven’t faced these difficulties and you’re never going to understand what it’s like to work somewhere that is actively trying to screw its employees.

        My organization is so bad about this that the state came in and forced a pay leveling audit because we weren’t complying with equal pay legislation. I got two raises in 8 months totally $8k.

    7. Ostrich Herder*

      I think this is super common and I also completely understand why you’re feeling emotional about it – especially working in the nonprofit world where what you do often means a lot to you personally, and that Making A Difference feeling is a big part of why most nonprofiteers do what they do.

      It feels personal, feels like they just don’t value YOU enough to invest. But more likely, it’s inertia in some form of another. Maybe it’s them knowing that you deserved a raise and they could afford it, but there were other staff members in the same boat, and the budget couldn’t support ALL the well-deserved raises, so instead no one got one. Maybe it’s that the board has to approve raises, and the board is eyeing other financial priorities, and no one had internal capital to spend with them going to bat for you. There are a lot of possible reasons and no internet strangers are going to be able to nail them on the head.

      But it’s so, so much more likely that the answer is “the organization wasn’t ready for change” than that you, specifically, weren’t worth it. When an organization is hiring, they’re actively inviting change, so you’re well-poised to get a raise or extra benefits from them. To get anything new from Old Nonprofit, you’d have needed to find a way to get those rusty wheels turning all by yourself, from within. That’s hard! Sometimes the only way to force change is to BE change, by leaving. That’s why so many people leave jobs to keep moving up. It’s okay for you to be one of them.

      Again, I don’t think you’re unreasonable or unusual for being upset about this, it makes sense! But when you run the situation over and over in your mind, rehearsing what you might have said or done and imagining the difference it would have made, or you think about what your boss should have said or done for you to make your case, you’re looking for a place to put the blame. You want to find the point of failure so you can avoid being in this situation again. But it has the side effect of making things feel personal and awful. Reminding yourself that the answer is probably “they weren’t ready for change” rather than “I wasn’t worth it” or “Boss didn’t see my value” might help soothe the hurt of it.

      And best of luck in your new position! It sounds great!

      1. Jen*

        “When an organization is hiring, they’re actively inviting change, so you’re well-poised to get a raise or extra benefits from them.”

        This is a really good point.

    8. BellaStella*

      I feel this. I just got a raise this year after almost 5 years of not even COLA, also work for a non profit. It is bad management, lack of sustainable funding and proper fundraising, and lack of planning. It is lack of respect for workers who do a lot and go above and beyond for the mission. It is paying managers like the COO or CFO a salary that is 3-4x what a programme officer (who does all the ground and field work and a lot of fundraising) makes. It is again, poor management, lack of foresight and direction. And ignoring it by saying , “there are 100 others who want your job so leave if you are unhappy”…. it is tough. I am glad you got out, got a 30% raise, and love your new place. Maybe take some time to reflect but also, look ahead at the cool new things you can do and will do at your new workplace. Best of luck!

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      Ripple effect? If they give you the raise/promotion, “everybody else will want one too!” Whereas hiring a new person for a low salary sends the message “we’ll replace you without a second thought so keep your trap shut.”

      That’s a cynical take, I realize, but…

    11. Qwerty*

      A lot of it has to do with inertia, short memories, and exposure. Salaries in tech have been on a roller coaster for the past few years, so I’ve been at a few companies grappling with this.

      Exposure – If you don’t see what other companies are paying, then you don’t realize your own salaries are out of touch. Especially because titles aren’t really standard so its easy to think that another company is paying more because their role has more responsibilities or has a terrible work/life balance

      Inertia – A cynical way to look at a raise is paying more for something you already have. I’m not saying it is right. It is not even a conscious thought! But the mental comparison is usually pay X or pay Y, without “Disheartened will leave” being on the table as an option. Compared to hiring someone new, when you are negotiating the budget for the role in one go and then it is over with.

      Short memories – Roles grow with a person and it just becomes thought of as part of your role. They think you are doing your role of tasks A-E and being great at it, not doing your original job of A-C plus D&E.

      What a couple of my companies have done to combat this is eliminate merit vs COL raises and switch to an annual evaluation of the role with a market rate adjustment. You figure out what you would pay each person if you hired them today, then look at their current salary. Plus do a review if people in similar roles are making similar amounts, since a shift in the market will mean newer employees have higher salaries, which gets the existing employees caught up within a year.

    12. Joielle*

      I 100% feel you on this and went through something similar very recently. I was passed over for a (truly) well-deserved promotion in favor of an outside candidate, with no real reason or explanation from leadership. I was really emotional about it for a while because it was the place where I thought I would build my career and someday retire from, with a mission I really believed in. I had taken on a lot of extra work and responsibility and knocked it out of the park, and trusted that leadership had my back in return. When they went with an outside candidate it felt like it all came crashing down and I could no longer trust these people I had worked with for years – and there wasn’t any other path for me to advance, so I had to leave. Like you, I quickly got another job with a pay increase, much better title, and more interesting work. So I’m definitely better off, but it still bugs me.

      I think one reason I’m not over it is that I wanted an explanation and I’ll never get one. Or some kind of acknowledgement that my boss made the wrong decision and regretted losing me. Or even just an acknowledgement that his decision was what made me leave. It’ll never come, though. I guess living well is the best revenge :)

      1. I hate IFFS*

        I share your pain. While my situation was more like, “Why did you hire this terrible boss, tell me it was going to be ok, it never got ok’ so I left. I, too, love the role and mission. It was the first place I had stayed more than 2.5 years and I told everyone about that accomplishment (my husband and I were military and moved a lot).

        I, too, could no longer trust these people I had worked with for years based on the terrible hire, and lack of support to get through it. They clearly ‘sided’ with the manager and I was left out. Even though I carried the department through a major transition for almost a year, I couldn’t cash in the social credit I banked.

        “I think one reason I’m not over it is that I wanted an explanation and I’ll never get one.” I feel this, too. I’ll never know why they devalued me so much that they didn’t want to help me. Then they asked me back to help them, which I interpreted as positive, but then I was kicked again. I was ‘fired’ again when my contract wasn’t renewed (they say because of price increase) and here I am.

        I wrote the CEO and CHR a bland (because I am looking for a job) email to share why I’m upset (not that they’re likely to care), and noted things they’re not likely to know such as the Director (who has since resigned after 6-mos) didn’t let me train anyone before I left; didn’t talk to me for the last two weeks of my time there; took away my potential of having 40-hours of PTO paid out; and embarrassed me by writing an org-wide departure email (what all managers do when a report leaves) inferring I was fired.

        I’m sorry you feel this way. I, do, too.

    14. NonprofitsAreWeird*

      At my non-profit all salaries, bonuses, raises, etc. need to go through the BoD. All of them. We tend to get infrequent but larger raises for that reason.

      Most of the for profit companies I’ve worked for try to give raises every year, but they’re often only 1-2%. Those companies where the bonus is a significant part of the compensation will vary wildly around whether and how much (these bonuses always have a company modifier so if the company didn’t meet certain profit thresholds the bonuses are either small or non-existent).

      Going back to the non-profit, though, if there’s one person on the board who doesn’t want to invest in higher salaries that can be enough to scuttle them.

      Also, most non-profits I’m familiar with are somewhat like academia- low salaries but really good benefits. So they try to make the argument that you’re getting more time off than peers at other companies or similar to justify keeping the salaries lower.

    15. Wordybird*

      My experience with non-profits has been that the decision-makers are either unwilling to hold people accountable and/or rely on volunteers to accomplish things that an employee would better suited to accomplish. I volunteer with a non-profit where the ED petitioned for a raise last year… right before his wife’s real estate career took off and now while he hasn’t done any fundraising in over a year, he has been all over the country for various vacations both on- and off-season. The board seems unbothered by the lack of funds coming in and his lack of effort in general. My previous role at a non-profit was a lot of thumb-twiddling as my boss insisted that we needed to use our members/donors to accomplish certain tasks because they were skilled in such-and-such area or they knew so-and-so but then it took 10x as long for that same volunteer to work on what I could have done.

      My current employer, which is for-profit, seems to have decided that a good way for them to make a profit is to have a small number of higher-ups who make a lot of money, hire as many brand-new college graduates as possible so they can pay them less to balance that out, and everyone in the middle gets the smallest COL raise possible on a yearly basis. If those middles leave, then they can hire more new grads to take their place.

  29. HRGoatLady*

    My wife is transgender, and we live in an area of the country that is very hostile to transgender people. We have been trying to leave for a while – we’re financially stable enough to get our own housing even in this market, but getting a job in a “safe” state (i.e. has laws protecting gender-affirming care) has proven to be an issue. We don’t know anyone in these states. We haven’t been to most of these states.

    I’m the limiting factor here – my wife can get a job pretty much anywhere because of her skillset but she will take a major pay cut and so I have to make it up in my job. I have been applying and interviewing for months and have gotten to final round 5x with no luck. I make it very clear that I can relocate at my own cost and start onsite 1 month from accepting the offer, which is a reasonable timeframe, isn’t it?

    There’s an election coming and one party has made it very clear that they intend to remove protections for transgender people, and LGBTQIA+ people as a whole. If they win, we will have to uproot everything and leave for a safe state. This is not optional. Her safety comes over everything else.

    But this job market is awful, and I don’t know how long it would take us to get jobs again. What would we tell our current companies about leaving? What do we say when interviewers ask why we left our jobs and moved 1000+ miles away?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Come to New Mexico. It’s cheap here, outside of Santa Fe. Yes, you will take a pay cut, because this is an overall low-paying state, but the COL here is very low, so it evens out. Beautiful, beautiful state with endless nature to explore, good food, a short flight from DEN and DFW to get you where you need to go. Heavily blue state, at both state and federal level.

      You don’t need to tell your current companies anything, other than you’re relocated for a change of pace. You don’t need to tell interviewers anything, other than you were ready for a change, and heard good things about [NEW STATE].

      1. HRGoatLady*

        New Mexico is a beautiful state – it’s one of the ones we’ve actually been to. Thank you for the recommendation!

        1. NewMexicoMemories*

          NM was not that cheap when I lived there, in part because they imported a lot of the food and water cost a fortune. The salaries were so low it was laughable which did not help. This was many years ago, though, so perhaps things have changed. Also, it wasn’t actually that friendly to many non-Hispanic minorities and I worry that there could be issues around being trans.

          But again, my information is not recent so all of this could be very different now.

      2. Prudence and Wakeen Snooter Theatre for the Performing Oats*

        I also live in NM- not knowing your income bracket, rents are not great for those of us in lower income brackets, and while our current governor has been working to strengthen protections, the governor’s office has flipped from blue to red roughly every 8 years. I hope NM stays a safe harbor, but I wouldn’t count on it. And water is rapidly going to be a critical issue. I love NM- and don’t want to dissuade any one- but I also don’t want you to have an overly rosy view.

    3. CL*

      Feeling for you and your wife. We are also looking to move to a “safe” space for different reasons (special education and disability protections).
      You can tell people some innocuous version of “I’ve always wanted to live in X state” or “I have family nearby”. A family member moved 2000+ miles away under the story of having family closer (closer still meant 400 miles away.) That works for both current and potential employers.

      Good luck.

    4. ThatGirl*

      Is she looking for a new job that maybe isn’t a major paycut? Or is at least in line with local COL? Feels like you should both be looking and maybe she can find something that pays better than you think.

      That said, you don’t have to give any specific reasons – “better quality of life” or “needed a change of pace” or “family reasons” are all fine…

      1. HRGoatLady*

        She has an incredibly unique job – as in only 4 people in a company of 10,000+ do what she does – and she has been there over a decade. Even if she could find the exact same job elsewhere, she would lose $20k just from seniority raises alone.

        But that’s definitely something to investigate – see if something might be less than that expected $20k pay cut.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I hear you, but I do feel like it’s worth looking – and she might be able to find something that uses overlapping unique skills and pays better as well. At a minimum, if she can find something that you can “make work” for a few months while you move, it will make it easier for you to find a new job once you’re there.

          Good luck!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Difficulties with weather & environment can be worth a reference.
        I’m ready to get out of tornado alley.
        We’ve had one too many hurricanes make landfall right near us, and its timr to move inland.
        I’ve developed a severe allergy to XYZ, and those don’t grow in Maine.

    5. Leave Hummus Alone*

      I’m so sorry, HRGoatLady. I’ve experienced feeling unsafe in society because of who I am and it’s unnerving. Is there any way you can talk to your current company and see if you can relocate and work remotely? Even if it’s for a limited time, to give yourself time to move and have an address in a safe state. Are there professional groups you can reach out to for advice on job hunting in that state? Good luck and I’m rooting for you and your family!

      1. HRGoatLady*

        Unfortunately, remote work isn’t an option for either of us in our current jobs.

        Does anyone have any recommendations for professional groups in safe states?

        1. Nesprin*

          It’s easier to find the lgbtia subgroup of a professional association than vice versa.

        2. Tio*

          I’m assuming you’re in HR, but I don’t know much about that. What about your wife? Can you give us a general idea?

          1. HRGoatLady*

            She is in manufacturing, doing very specific repairs – let’s say that a teapot manufacturer uses robots to make teapots and the robots occasionally mess up a teapot. She is the one to fix the teapot so that it meets all of the Premium Teapot Manufacturer’s extremely high quality standards and can move forward to the rest of the teapot assembly.

            1. Tio*

              With that context, the franklin park/ schiller park area of IL I mentioned below would might be a decent option. Still blue areas, with a bit of manufacturing dotted around. There is also manufacturing in the more rural areas she could commute to if she finds the right company.

    6. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      As someone who lives in the bluest of blue states, I don’t think anyone here would bother to ask why you moved 1000 miles away. If I had a resume come across my desk with all the history being in a very red state I would just think “Yeah, I would run too”.

      It might be worth your wife taking the best job she can get, make the move and hope for the best. In the meantime, cut your lifestyle to the bare bones and save money like her life depends on it. Do whatever you can to live on her salary. Regardless of how November turns out it is going to continue to get worse for LGBTQ+ and especially trans in many states.

      Hugs to you and best of luck.

      1. HRGoatLady*

        Ironically, it seems as if I’m viewed with suspicion coming from a red state. I’ve been told, “We’re concerned you won’t fit in here.” It’s like, if you listened to me for about 10 min you would definitely know that’s not the case!

        1. M2*

          I have a close friend who is also moving for similar reasons but from overseas and no one wants to pay to move her here. So she and her partner decided to just move. She’s saving every penny and cutting costs so when she comes it won’t be an issue.

          Maybe have your partner get a role and you move without one and apply once you move? Cut and save money now so you are used to a less budget.

          If you’re in HR look at universities in blue states and diversify your applications. Say you’re a Director or head if HR apply to those but also maybe Manager roles. I had to do that once and it was a bummer but I was promoted rather quickly and then left and was promoted again. If you’re the only HR person and you move to a larger company with many then your title might be less senior anyway just based on the different levels.

          If they also ask you why you want to move say you moved for your partners job or say you had to stay in X state because if your partners job. People understand that! Good luck to you!

        2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          Yeah, overall if you can at all swing moving first and finding a job later, it might be easier to find a job. Even if you say you can relocate yourself, so many screens just toss out out-of-state applications

        3. different seudonym*

          I hear what you’re saying. I agree with others, that you don’t need to say anything other than “family reasons.” I also think it’s unlikely anyone will get your overall situation unless they’re queer themselves–and only sometimes then. My experience in a really purple state is that people who are not plugged in to pro- fascist media literally have no idea what’s happening to trans rights elsewhere. It isn’t covered in mainstream media. The average person where I live, a very blue major metropolitan area, thinks being visibly trans is sorta weeby/cringe, and otherwise pays no attention at all.

          I think in your position I would just target a specific place and go. I think your evaluation of the climate is accurate.

    7. aubrey*

      You could try shortening the time frame for when you can start – live in an airbnb for a couple weeks before your wife completes the move to join you. I have been the one who had to handle most of the moving because my partner moved ahead of me and it was terrible but we got through it!

      Are there some safe states where your wife’s pay cut will not be so bad given the cost of living? It could make sense to focus more on those in case you also need to make some financial compromises to get a job, or take a job that you might not want to stay at long term.

      I think as long as you focus on what you’re excited about with the new job and the new state, general “[city] is a great fit for our family” kind of stuff is fine. It also helps to have visited the city and know you want to live there – and more importantly be able to specifically speak to that at the city level not just “any safe state”. The company will be concerned that you actually won’t like it there, especially if you’re coming from somewhere really different or it’s somewhere that people tend to view overly romantically, so be enthusiastic but seem like you have a realistic sense of the city.

      Good luck, it’s a scary time to to be in this position.

      1. HRGoatLady*

        I would need to give 2 weeks notice at my current job because I’m an HR department of one. I realistically don’t think I could close out everything at my job, pack, and handle all the administrative parts of getting housing and be onsite 1000+ miles away in 2 weeks. I have told companies that I could do it in 3 weeks if they can provide assistance in finding temp housing while I work out my notice.

        The plan is to stay in temp housing while my wife packs up the house and I find permanent housing, and have her join me after I start. The issue is just what it takes to get to the location in the first place.

        1. Filosofickle*

          When I moved to San Francisco I did it in 3 weeks, solo — 2 weeks notice (packing every day after work), then a few more days to finish up, and 3 days to drive 2000 miles. It was total chaos and a 4th week is worth trying for, but 3 was doable and that’s what my new employer required. I secured a 3-month sublet during my notice period (I’d already been researching the city, so I knew roughly where to look), but today with services like Airbnb you can reserve for a week or a month in a few minutes online, starting tomorrow. There’s not that much admin if you start with a temporary rental like that.

          1. PotatoRock*

            I did a very short notice cross country move & lived at an Extended Stay for a month – it was nice not to be worrying about picking a permanent place in the very first days of a new job

        2. AnonForThisOne*

          If you are moving for your wife’s job (or even if that’s what you can say) you should qualify for unemployment benefits as the “trailing” spouse.

          I know the benefit amounts are laughable (here in CA they max at 450 per week) it’s still something coming in to help bridge the gap.

    8. Tradd*

      You might consider Illinois. I have a transgender friend who lives there. There are state level laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity. It’s considered very progressive for LGBT+ issues.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Illinois should definitely be on the list, I assume HRGoatLady and her wife thought of that already :) Michigan too, I don’t know about state-level laws there but I know that it’s a bit lower COL and my trans friend and his queer wife moved there last year and they love it.

        2. HRGoatLady*

          Michigan is making huge steps – looks like the trans panic defense will be banned there soon – but it’s actually not one of the sanctuary states.

      3. HRGoatLady*

        Thank you! I’ve spent a fair amount of time around Chicago and I love the area – just not the City itself. I still wax poetic about Portillo’s and their hot Italian beef sandwiches with spicy peppers, mmmmmm…

        1. ThatGirl*

          Fair point on Michigan. And as a suburbanite near Chicago, I do definitely recommend this area. The COL is pretty median for the country and our job market seems strong.

        2. Tio*

          Look into Naperville, it’s a little higher col than some of the state area but very blue. I live in IL and went to school in Naperville. Most of the Chicagoland area is pretty blue within an hour of the city; I live about 1.5h away and we have a fairly blue area, although we do get a few Trump signs in some of the more rural areas. Franklin Park, Schiller park, Elk grove are all business park areas near the airport that are pretty blue too.

          1. ThatGirl*

            DuPage and Cook Co esp are gonna be good bets. Naperville is fine, I love Downers Grove personally. Oak Park is probably the gayest suburb though housing can be pricy there.

    9. Rex Libris*

      I hope everything works out. As far as what to tell the employer, Assuming you’ll take a trip to check the place out before committing, you can say “We’ve visited Metropolis before, and just fell in love with it” or something similar.

    10. Reebee*

      I would think more and more companies are open to “Needed and wanted to be in a more diverse city/town that is accepting and tolerant,”etc. I mean, it’s as valid a reason as any for relocating, and, with younger generations on the hiring end, I’d think they’d be quite receptive and understanding.

      Much luck to you and your wife!!

      1. HRGoatLady*

        I freely admit to exploiting this when I’m talking to an interviewer. “Why yes I know about DEI, I am A Diverse and so is my wife.” (+2 internet points if you get the reference)

    11. Joielle*

      Come to Minnesota! A lot of people are doing the same thing as your family – I’ve seen multiple news articles about folks moving to MN for better LGBTQ+ protections so it wouldn’t be a surprise to an interviewer. Also we’re a pretty good location for climate change reasons. There are definitely conservative companies out there but we have a lot of big companies with serious DEI efforts, and state government jobs are also a good bet for understanding/supportive interviewers.

    12. CostOfLiving*

      Most hard blue areas are also very high COL areas so you may not get that pay cut but your money will likely not go nearly as far as you think it will.

      I have a 6 figure salary and spend more than half of it on rent – just rent, not including utilities or any other expenses. I live in the suburbs because I can’t afford to live in the city where my salary would not cover my rent.

      Your mileage may vary, but something to include in your considerations.

      Good luck!

    13. AnonForThisOne*

      First, I’m so sorry you and your wife are dealing with this. Her gender identity shouldn’t matter to anyone and certainly shouldn’t make her less safe. Sadly it does and I’m just so mad in your behalf.

      I’m in CA. Because our job market is competitive, local candidates do get priority so you might have better luck with moving and then finding something.

      As for what you say, honestly what you said in this would be a reason I wouldn’t question, and I’ve done hiring in more than one company. Probably less detail and just say it’s about needing to be somewhere that you feel safe. I know plenty of people, myself included, who refuse to even consider leaving the state because we just don’t know what will happen to our rights in other places.

  30. Working bee*

    I was wondering if anyone here has ever used an executive or leadership coach? I have been applying to new jobs but there are a few things (non-technical) that are holding me back based on feedback from my employer and after the interviews so I thought maybe working with a coach would be helpful. If you have, how did you find them? What did you do with them and how did they help?

    1. OrdinaryJoe*

      I did when I was transitioning from one job to another to assist in evaluating my resume and helping to fill in skill gaps and if I wanted to pivot to other areas. I found them through my company’s HR department. They had a list of people they had referred people to for executive training or polishing. You could also see if there’s listings for your profession’s association … there’s an association for everyone!

    2. Redux*

      There was a long thread about this recently, I think last weekend’s work open thread but I’m not positive. Check it out!

  31. Ostrich Herder*

    I work with clients on long-term projects, and there’s one client that I really like, on a personal level, but for years they’ve been habitually late to meetings, aren’t prepared, miss emails, blow deadlines, etc. Making progress on their projects has always been extremely difficult because they don’t retain information from one meeting to the next and don’t take thorough notes, so I was always sending pre-meeting recaps and post-meeting summaries, which I highly suspected they weren’t reading. They used to, at least, be apologetic about the disorganization, but recently, the client shared with me that they’ve been diagnosed with ADHD, which was not a shock at all. Now they’re constantly talking about their ADHD. They’ve fully given up on the idea of taking their own notes, because the ADHD makes it “impossible.” They’ve also admitted they never read my pre- or post-meeting emails, and “can’t” because of the ADHD. Late? ADHD. Missed an email? I should have known they would miss it, since they have ADHD, and sent it twice. Blew a meeting? They were hyperfocused on something else, did I know that’s a common thing that happens with ADHD?

    I do know that, because I myself am a person with ADHD. In many ways I get what they’re going through, and I can only imagine how tough it must have been for this client (late 50s) to go their whole life without a diagnosis, or tools, or coping skills, or an explanation of why their brain doesn’t just WORK the way everyone else’s does. This is not a “wow people with ADHD are annoying” post. But it is a “how do I deal with a person in the ‘oh my god I just got a diagnosis that explains everything’ phase?” post.

    I’ve talked to my manager, but this client is a friend of theirs, pays for the time they waste, and is perfectly happy with the glacially-slow pace of the project, so their time-wasting actually turns a major profit for us. Official word from on high is “the client is fine with how things are going, so just nod and smile.” But ooooh that’s hard! Any words of advice or wisdom?

    1. ferrina*

      My advice is going to be different between a client and a coworker.

      For a client, part of what they are paying for is the hand-holding. Think of it as they are paying you to be competent for them. As you manage the project, make sure that you are gently guiding them to what the right answer should be (“based on what you were saying last week about X, do we want to do Y?”). Plan to give them fuller updates than what you would.

      Of course, this all needs to stay within the scope of the work. If you find that this client is taking more time than what was budgeted in the scope, you need to talk to your boss about scope creep. But if this client is still compensating your company appropriately for their time, this may just be part of this particular project.
      *As a side note, I’m also someone with ADHD. I feel for this client, but at the same time, I can’t imagine how they got through their career with this behavior! You have to figure out someway to manage the symptoms (and I’ve managed plenty of symptoms before I realized that they were actually symptoms)

    2. Justin*

      I’ve been that just diagnosed adult and now I’m in the “and now I see others going through this.”

      I just have to be very very very very clear about the baseline things I need from people and tell them “your process is up to you as long as you do the thing.” It tends to help fellow ADHDers relax, I feel.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        This might be a key, honestly – they’re always asking for long, detailed recaps and explanations, so they have “all the info” but never actually read them. I may experiment with a “I’ll send the long version later today, but in the meantime, here are the three things I can’t live without!” that they may actually read.

    3. Flor*

      Why do you care if no one else does? I mean that sincerely – if the client is fine with the pace of the project, and your boss is fine with it, then why is it that it bothers you so much? Is it that you feel stood up and unappreciated by the client doing this? Is it that you find it frustrating because it throws off your plan for the day, or because you’re doing wasted work? Is it a point of professional pride to do good work, and you don’t feel like you’re providing that?

      There’s not a right or wrong answer here, but maybe thinking about why it’s bothering you so much can help you with coping with it, because it sounds like coping is the best option rather than trying to fix the problem if neither your boss nor client sees a problem to fix. For instance, if it’s frustrating because you’re doing wasted work, maybe you can reframe it as, “Well I still get paid, so it’s not totally wasted”, or remind yourself that this person is going through the, “Things finally make sense!” phase and that it should (hopefully) settle down as they move into the “finding ways to manage it” phase.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        This is a fair question! Part of the issue is that we’re understaffed and I’m salaried. So while the company makes its money on work for this client, it throws off my days and if I have to stay late, there’s no extra compensation.

        The bulk of the issue, honestly, is just that the meetings are incredibly exhausting. I met with them today and it was the usual rigmarole of them being late, having forgotten the purpose of the meeting, etc. They asked me to get them back up to speed, immediately interrupted to tell an unrelated story, explicitly saying they had to tell the story because of their ADHD. I genuinely laughed at the story, and used it to segue back into the meeting. They stopped the meeting again to say that me returning to talking about business actually made them feel really bad, because part of ADHD is rejection sensitivity and they felt that I hadn’t liked their story. They made it clear that I hadn’t been rude or unprofessional, just that they were worried I didn’t like it. I reminded them that I’d laughed, and they suggested that, “as an accommodation for [their] ADHD” I should tell them a specific thing that I liked about stories they tell, so they know I’m really listening and not just politely laughing at the end. It’s like this every time – it’s not just extra business attention, they expect a level of emotional caretaking that’s, frankly, exhausting. I wind up feeling drained after meeting with them and it’s affecting my other work.

        1. Flor*

          Oh goodness, that sounds EXHAUSTING. Is there any chance you can pull back on meetings? They don’t sound like they’re being super productive from a business perspective, so if, say, you have a standing weekly meeting for the project can you see if you can do it once a fortnight instead?

          I’d also address the specific understaffed element (and subsequently having to stay late) with your boss, if you haven’t; that’s their responsibility to address, even if the client’s time-wasting is profitable for the business.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Exactly. If the client wants to shell out for time wasted, goody goody gumdrops. But it’s the OP’s actual time that’s being used, and that needs to be addressed specifically.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          Oh my GOD. That’s crossing the line into therapy, frankly. You aren’t paid for that. Just reading that exhausted me. She isn’t three, you aren’t her nanny.

          And hooray for your boss/company making money off of her, but it’s on your back and your time, and you aren’t seeing any of it.

          I don’t really know what to say from an advice standpoint, just that you are well within “the eff?” territory as far as I’m concerned.

        3. The teapots are on fire*

          I’d push back with your boss on the fact that the extra load from this client is forcing you to work late: the business is making money at your expense, so can the client be assigned to someone else or can your load be decreased to allow for the clear fact that this client takes up too much time and energy? His traits might bother you less if you weren’t overworked.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      First: commiserations on the level of frustration you are dealing with!

      I have two recommendations; naturally you know your client and industry best, so adjust as needed. But maybe this will help.

      1. Currently, you are working overtime/longer hours to deal with this client and keep them from being more of a problem. Your managers are happy because you are making it not their problem. If you can, it’s time to start making it their problem. “Hey boss, Client X hasn’t responded by EOD today so they’re going to have to wait until 8 AM Monday morning for their answer.”

      2. Have a come-to-Jesus meeting with your manager regarding the “ADHD” issues. I say that in quotation marks not because I doubt anyone’s diagnosis, but because they’re pushing a burden of emotional labor onto you that is wildly inappropriate and it doesn’t really matter if it’s ADHD or any other diagnosis. In the gentlest way possible: it’s not your problem if they have rejection dysphoria. It’s not your fault that they’re disorganized. They can request that you send recaps in a different form – that’s fine! That’s a work product. But requesting that you listen and commiserate the way they want to their stories is not OK. You are being paid to complete a work project, not act as a therapist/sounding board. I don’t know what the best way to handle that is, but I would 100% tell your manager about what’s happening and ask for advice on how to stop it. Maybe that means your manager sits in on some of the meetings. Maybe that means you now have phone calls conveniently scheduled immediately after the scheduled end of your current meetings, so sorry, got to go.

      Apart from that – I would mentally add a 200% delay to all your expected timelines and be sure to document document document any delays that occur.

    5. Happily Retired*

      I’ve read the other comments and agree, but assuming that you are stuck with this client, and knowing that you aren’t going to try to do therapy, maybe ask them: “What works best for you? How do you like to get your information? Bulleted lists? Short paragraphs, one per topic? Something something. If this person has managed to be employed this long, they must have had some sort of method or strategy for organizing information. If you can find out what that is, maybe your communications won’t be so frustrating.

      But otherwise, yeah, you have my sympathy while they stand there dazed, attempting to understand and integrate this new diagnosis.

  32. Ready for the weekend*

    Hi everyone. How do you get over the actions of an ex-colleague and an ex-friend whose behavior impacted your mental health and reputation? I went on a business trip three years ago, where all safety measures were taken seriously and implemented. Ex-friend/colleague learns of it, removes me from a work group and threatens to write a report about me.

    The report doesn’t happen, and I kept checking in on this, but I was a mess for a long time. I struggled to complete my work and made a lot of mistakes that made me look unreliable. Now over three years later, but I’ve learned from others that this person also took similar business trips. Just trying to get over this.

    1. ferrina*

      If it were me, I’d spend a few hours being properly angry. I’d do something physical, then play a video game where I could let out some aggression. Then I nod to myself and move on.

      I assume this person is well out of your life now, which is where they should be. This person sounds like they leave a trail of destruction in their wake.

    2. Apex Mountain*

      The question is a little confusing to me. What was he threatening to write you up for? Since you mention safety, was there an injury or something on the trip?

      1. ThatGirl*

        yeah, I’m real confused about what happened on this trip or any of the others. People travel for business all the time. It sounds like things were poorly handled – the OP should have gone to their manager or HR or something at the time – but the place to work this out now is possibly by talking to someone who can help you work through it emotionally.

      2. Sussannah*

        I suspect that given the timing – three years ago – this was Covid- related and the colleague thought that the travel was unsafe.

      3. Ready for the weekend*

        They were mad that I was traveling amid the pandemic. I asked the organizer why it was still happening and what precautions were being put in place. I was told that there were going to be many requirements and I can confirm we had to stay masked. We did and I was extra careful with any contact I had with others.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Ah, I see.

          Even so – why on earth would someone have to write something up about it? What business is it of theirs, and why would that affect you in any way? You were presumably told to go, and stayed as safe as you could, so why is this still bothering you?

    3. Critical Sensation*

      I’d probably seek therapy if I was that badly affected by someone making ridiculous empty threats about a work-sanctioned trip, honestly. This person sounds pathetic and their threats meaningless, and I’d want to get to the bottom of why their nonsense affected me so badly.

      If that isn’t possible, then I’d suggest writing out everything you’d like to say to them, exactly as you’d want to say it. Be detailed, add pictures, mind-map it – whatever gets it out of your head and onto paper. Then destroy that paper in whatever way seems best to you – burn it, rip it to pieces, run it through the shredder, paint over it with black paint – while repeating out loud “you have no power over me”. And then never think about them again (and if they pop into your mind? “You have no power over me.”) .

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Should we assume that by “3 years ago” you mean business trips before covid restrictions were lessened?

    5. biobotb*

      I’m also confused. So your boss sent you on this trip, but your colleague threatened to write you up over a work-sanctioned trip and you felt that was a credible threat, and that you might actually get in trouble? Or you were upset because you felt betrayed by how the colleague reacted to the trip?

  33. K with Scapula Pain*

    So I mostly work from home and I work at a desk. I also experience a decent amount of neck/shoulder stiffness and aching from my right shoulder blade. Would having an adjustable desk and adjusting the height of my monitor (I work on a laptop + a monitor) help with this? Would getting a specific type of mouse also be helpful (I just use my laptop trackpad).

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Probably not, because what you have doesn’t sound like a symptom of bad ergonomics, it sounds like you have an actual injury. Start with a physical therapist who can actually find what’s going on, and then you can ask them for recommendations for adjusting your workspace.

      Seriously, PTs are absolute angels, and are SO much more effective than doctors at actually finding and diagnosing musculoskeletal issues. Don’t dismiss it, it could be something serious. Take it from me, I’ve been there!

      1. K with Scapula Pain*

        I appreciate the concern and I may have to at some point but I notice my issues go away on 3 day weekends or week long vacations, making me think the issue is very tied to my set up.

        1. kalli*

          On weekends or vacations, are you sitting for the same amount of time? No? Then it’s more likely that moving around, comfier chairs, extra lying down time etc. aren’t exacerbating it.

          For example, my back hurts after sitting all day. My back hurts after sitting all day in a car or at the computer chair, but not if I’m reclining in bed all day. This is because I have severe pain from osteoporosis and not being upright reduces the strain on my spine, not because my ergonomic gaming chair isn’t ergonomic enough and my second monitor is a bit higher than ergonomically ideal because otherwise there wouldn’t be desk room for my ergonomic mechanical keyboard.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I disagree. By not have an ergonomic set up you can actually injure yourself and cause strain. Yes I think the OP should go see someone who can help (PT or chiropractor) but if they do not make a change to their set up it’s not going to get better.

      3. DrSalty*

        I disagree about the ergonomics, but I agree 100% about the utility of PT. I had neck/shoulder pain and dizziness directly caused by bad posture and a bad desk set up, and PT fixed it for me. So yes OP, rearrange your desk!

    2. Ellie*

      I had the same issue and I found that using a real mouse but keeping it centered and close to my body instead of close to the computer helped.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Here’s something I noticed about myself that I was able to train myself out of.

      Do you do a lot of just reading on the screen – no typing, no clicking, just scrolling every minute or two? Try to get in the habit of dropping your hand into your lap or otherwise relaxing your hand, write, and forearm – instead of having it tensed up over the mouse/trackpad all the time. Made a huge difference for me.

    4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Get a wireless mouse. They are super cheap and will help your wrists and probably your neck much better. You might want to get a combo mouse and keyboard. One that you can have the keyboard at a proper and comfortable angle. You may not be realizing it but you may be hunching over your laptop because you don’t have a proper mouse and keyboard.
      If you can afford it (or the company can pay for it) get yourself a standing desk. I don’t work remote but I just got one recently at work and it helps a lot to be able to change positions.

    5. WellRed*

      In addition to rethinking your set up and possible PT, make sure you are stepping away from the desk regularly to stretch or “shake it out.” Humans weren’t designed to sit over a keyboard all day.

    6. aubrey*

      I had issues with this that turned into a nerve injury/pinching problem from that still bugs me sometimes after years. Definitely get something more ergonomic before it gets worse, take it from me! You could try a round or vertical mouse, something that gets your hand into less of a twisted position. I like one called microsoft sculpt ergonomic mouse, but there’s a bunch of options.

    7. NottheBoomer*

      I raised my laptop with a stand and use a keyboard- that seems to help a bit- and taking breaks!

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I had a major reduction in shoulder and neck pain when I switched to a trackball – WAY less arm movements. I put it off for a long time because I didn’t want to have to retrain myself to move the ball with my fingers and click with my thumbs, but most of the Logitech ones have the buttons positioned the same way as on a regular mouse and you move the ball with your thumb, which takes about 15 minutes to get used to as long as you’re not like, trying to do minute detailed photoshop work with it.

      1. Girasol*

        Yes, this! Company doc told me the reason my right arm ached was my mouse and he prescribed a trackball. I didn’t think that could possibly solve so much pain, but wow, it did. You mentioned right shoulder. Unless you’re a leftie, suspect the mouse and try a trackball.

    9. Higher Ed Admin*

      It might! Also spend a few days being very, very conscious of how you’re sitting, all the time. I have a lot of the same stuff you mentioned but on my left side; when I started paying attention to it, I was sitting in a position that had me putting a lot of weight-pressure on my left arm on the armrest of my chair. I swapped out my chair for one without armrests and not being able to lean on it subconsciously has helped a lot. Of course this might not be the same thing for you, but paying really close attention to how you’re sitting/arranging yourself for a few days can help narrow down exactly what about your setup is causing the problem, and therefore how to fix it.

    10. lemon*

      I have the same exact issues. My right shoulder pain was due to using the laptop trackpad – it’s not ergonomic to have to reach to that center position to mouse, rather than reaching more directly in front of you the way you would with an external trackpad or mouse (assuming you’re right handed).

      What worked for me was to use two external mouses. I taught myself to use a mouse left-handed, so I use an ergonomic mouse on the left. I also have an external trackpad that I use on the right. I use a Mac, which uses a lot of gesture-based shortcuts, so I end up using the trackpad for all those gesture shortcuts, and then use the mouse for everything else. It’s helped so much with my pain.

      I also did some physical therapy and learned some easy exercises and stretches that I do periodically throughout the day to help with neck and shoulder stiffness, so that might be another option to look into.

    11. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I have no way to know if the same is true for you, but I had this exact issue – a very precise pain in the right shoulderblade and some neck and shoulder stiffness – and getting a mousepad with a raised gel wrist pad stopped it overnight.

    12. Everything Bagel*

      I’d be looking at my entire current desk setup first. I had severe neck, shoulder, and wrist pain many years ago, and it all was due to my desk set up. Someone at my office came and evaluated my ergonomic setup, which was not ergonomic at all! After that I was volun-told that I would become an ergonomic evaluator and did that for a couple of years. As soon as I hear anyone talking about pain from working at their desk, my mind immediately jumps to all of the things that go into ergonomics. I hope you’ll consider these and do a little research online to evaluate your own setup.

      Your monitor should be within arms reach with the top of it at or below eye level. Your keyboard and mouse should be at a level where your arms can hang freely to use them and directly in front of you without your wrists resting on anything. A pull out keyboard tray is great for this. I had to give up my keyboard with a number pad because I found I was reaching too far to the side to use my mouse, and that was causing me shoulder pain. Also consider if your chair is the right height for your thighs to be parallel to the floor and your feet touching the floor or on a footrest, and if you are using the chair back as support or if you are instead leaning forward a lot.

      Sorry for all the detail, I hope you find this helpful!

    13. Zephy*

      +1 to the suggestion to talk to a physical therapist or other medical professional, but a workstation that is adjustable and ergonomically sound is probably also worth looking into. Hell, your PT can probably even make recommendations, and if a medical professional says you need it, good chance the company will even pay for it.

    14. Astor*

      Just adding that if you get an adjustable desk to make sure it goes lower than a regular desk. The cheaper / more affordable ones often don’t, because of historical design and them being aimed to help with standing. But generally people under 5’8ish need their desks lower.

      Adding a keyboard tray is also an possible, but harder on an adjustable desk because the supports and mechanisms limit your options and can make it very complicated. It normally takes my workplace 0-2 days to install a keyboard tray on a standard desk. Mine took 6 months and multiple consultations for an adjustable desk.

    15. shrambo*

      As someone who’s been there… Yes, more ergonomic equipment will probably help, but you will should also probably see a physical therapist, do their exercises regularly, stretch every 15 minutes while you’re working, and try to minimize the time you spend in front of a computer.

    16. Haven’t picked a username yet*

      I got a standing desk 3 years ago and it was game changing. I stand all day and do not have the same issues with my shoulder as I used to. If I sit for an hour – pain.

      Your mileage may vary but it works for me.

  34. Anonymous Educator*

    I’ve been at my current job mostly remote (got it shortly before the pandemic started). Through that time, our team has had a few intern with us. Even though I’m a huge fan of remote work, I don’t think it’s great for internships, and I feel those interns got short-changed.

    Now that we’ve switched to a more hybrid situation, I have the opportunity to mentor an intern for real in person.

    For people who’ve been interns, what did your mentor or supervisor do to make your internship experience a great one?

    For people who’ve worked with interns, what have you learned over the years to be a better mentor or supervisor to interns?

    1. K with Scapula Pain*

      I was an intern and helped with interns, and I would say making sure you’re very approachable for any questions asked, and making sure to give the intern a good amount of resources (helpful website links, etc). from the get-go.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      Actually giving your intern real work to do. The best internship I’ve ever had, I was given a huge amount of autonomy on a big, important project.

      Also, being cognizant of the fact that your interns might not have very much money. Don’t invite them out to dinner or drinks and not pay for them, etc.

      1. MsM*

        If you can give the intern some ability to have that project reflect their interests, even better. We have a few big, long-term things we always need help with, and we can usually carve something out of those that will give them particular practice with the skills they want to develop.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I second this! And make sure that what they are working on aligns to what they are in school for or what jobs they are looking for. If you can, give them something concreate that they can show so employers know that they worked and learned something and wasn’t just filing paperwork and getting coffee.

          Also, if you can, have the intern do meet and greets with other people in the company. Have them learn everything they can about an office and what different people do. Not just the managers, but the executive assistants and receptionists. Sometimes its the people that are often looked over that have the most knowledge.

      2. But maybe not*

        +1 to this, especially real work! My internship experience was such that the work I did was very impactful and well within my skillset, which gave me a ton of confidence. I see that with my interns as well. Have conversations with them often and early about what they like to do, where they want to grow, what they think their career aspirations are, and try to align that best with what projects they’re assigned to.

      3. sb51*

        +1 to real work. Doesn’t have to be super autonomous if that’s not appropriate for their experience/ability, but they should get to feel like the work they’re doing matters.

        I misjudged an intern project one time—it was important work but the learning curve was steeper than I realized and how it fit into the larger picture was hard to understand until you got on top of all the material. So the intern was just lost.

        Someone else in the group had a chunk of super important but also fairly tedious work on their plate, and with my go-ahead offered it to the intern, who was delighted and did a great job on it, because he could see the results and understand the importance. Win-win.

        This is not to say you should intentionally give tedious work to interns, but make sure the importance of the work is clear and the scope seems manageable, and they’ll often not be there long enough to get sick of stuff you’ve done too many times to find interesting any more. (And maybe they’ll get ambitious and do a little automation or other process improvements along the way!)

    3. Ostrich Herder*

      Intern turned employee-who-trains interns, with eight years and quite a few interns’ worth of experience, reporting in. Like K said, approachability is huge, a lot of interns are going to struggle with interrupting you – especially this batch, COVID has done a number on social skills. Pop in on a semi-regular schedule to check in on them and see if they have questions, and positively reinforce the kinds of behaviors you want them learning – whether that’s independent problem-solving, asking questions, etc. Give them a strong sense of what your expectations are. What are their resources if they get stuck? How long should they spend trying to get un-stuck before you want to be tapped in? If you take them to meetings, let the know when or how they can chime in, vs. when they’re there to observe. Cutting down on uncertainty is going to make them more confident and help them learn more.

      In terms of assigning them actual work, figure out what they have experience with and what they don’t, and give them a good balance. They’ll be more confident if they get to do some stuff in their wheelhouse, and you want to expose them to stuff they’ve never done before so they get a sense of what they like and what they don’t. Letting them own projects – even small ones, which may not be used in the end – will give them start-to-finish experience they can’t get in a classroom.

  35. Anne*

    Fellow communications professionals, I am at currently unemployed and my wit’s end in terms of job hunting. When a job posting requires a cover letter, I craft a personal/tailored cover letter and resume, yet I still get rejected. If a job posting doesn’t require a cover letter, I don’t always submit one, and I am rejected once again. Does anyone know what might be going on? Hiring managers, are you reading the cover letters candidates submit?

    On a related note, a friend who works in pharmacy logistics insists that most writers are using AI to churn out cover letters and so I’m not a competitive candidate by virtue of not sending dozens of applications a day. I’d love to hear from other writers on if/how you’re using AI in drafting cover letters, and from anyone who might have insight on if my friend is correct or not. If it matters, my primary experience has been in the nonprofit world and I continue to seek roles in that sector.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Hi, I’m a writer. Do NOT use AI in your cover letter, it is so so obvious and tacky. Your friend is full of it. They’re not even in the same field as you, why are you believing them? I think the non-profit world is tough on a good day, and the job market is having a bad moment right now.

      1. Anne*

        Thanks, Morgan. I actually didn’t/don’t believe them and was skeptical that writers are using AI, but wanted to double-check my blindspots/bias/field awareness, as I’ve been incredibly demoralized and disheartened by the length of my search and failure to find new employment. I also think it’s tacky and obvious to use AI in cover letters.

    2. ferrina*

      Are you writing your cover letter from scratch? I have a cover letter template- intro paragraph, outro paragraph, and a selection of body paragraphs that each highlight a different skill/anecdote. I assemble the best pieces for that application, polish it up so it flows, then send it on.

      For AI- I used AI in my work. It’s great for writing a first draft, but you almost always need to edit it pretty heavily. It’s about the same as asking an intern to write the first draft of a detailed document- every so often you get lucky, but in general, plan to do a lot of editing or re-write.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I could see using AI to help you outline a cover letter if you didn’t know where to begin in terms of structuring it, but particularly in communications, you want it to reflect your voice and the achievements you think really make you shine.

        In terms of the response issue, I think it’s just that there’s a lot of competition out there, and even the best package won’t necessarily do the trick if there’s someone out there with a ridiculously applicable set of skills and past experience. Have you had friends and mentors in the field take a look at your materials just to make sure you’re not overlooking anything (and to help pass along the word that you’re looking)?

      2. Candidate with NVLD*

        Not necessarily from scratch — I use old cover letters to sort of Frankenstein new ones. I’d say it’s about 70% working with existing material and 30% using new ones. I admit I have used AI to “help” with cover letters (a different friend taught me a trick for getting ChatGPT to evaluate your application from the hiring manager’s perspective), but never included any of the AI-generated language in my application.

          1. Anne*

            Ask ChatGPT to evaluate the qualifications of a candidate for a job. Input the job details and your resume. You can also ask it to explain where the candidate might fall short.

            Tailor cover letter/resume accordingly.

    3. nonprofit*

      I’m not in communications but at a small nonprofit and have been involved in hiring recently, including for a comms position. We certainly do read cover letters, and it’s obvious when someone has used AI and not bothered to customize/edit. Not a good look. I know it’s frustrating, but it sounds like you are doing the right things. Is there a trusted person you could get to review your cover letter and resume to make sure they are as strong as possible?

    5. Apex Mountain*

      I don’t see why you can’t use AI to come up with a draft or outline, then edit it accordingly

    6. I should really pick a name*

      A cover letter can help you, but it doesn’t guarantee success.

      Sending more applications increases your chances by virtue of probability, but it doesn’t make you a more competitive candidate.

      Try to take a look at your resume as if you were someone who doesn’t know you (or maybe ask a friend). If it were put up against someone with similar qualifications, what would make you look like the better candidate?
      Are there any things in your job that you did particularly well? Try to highlight them. Don’t just mention that you did X, mention how you did X more effectively than the average person.

    7. CoverLettersOnlyHelpIfTheyreRead*

      I’m a writer who often interviews people. I only see resumes not cover letters. This has been true at every job I’ve had. Folks who’ve interviewed me have said the same thing about my cover letter and/or clearly been unfamiliar with its contents.

      I no longer customize cover letters unless I really, really want a particular job and feel like my qualifications will not be fully self evident from my resume. I have never gotten an interview from any of these jobs, though.

      YMMV, of course.

    8. M2*

      I would do a mix and do a couple with AI that you tweak and some on your own. Also diversify applications look at private sector, public sector, higher education, etc. I would also apply for different types of roles. During Covid imho many people had inflated titles so say you were a Communications Manager apply for manager, director, and specialist roles.

      I have had people apply for the wrong role especially if you change careers. If you were come in private sector it might be a bit different from public sector. I recently hired for an associate director role (that I was hoping would turn into a director role but couldn’t at the time because of HR) and I had people applying who had no experience or very little management experience. It said minimum 7-10 years of work experience and I had so many people apply with 2-5 years. I ended up hiring someone who was a associate director in another industry and even though they had the same title struggled for the first 12 months of the role. It was hard that even someone who had that much experience and was clearly first choice in the interview needed a lot of hand holding. I understand training and we have weekly meetings and check ins but it was still a change for them.

      Reach out to your network. Contact your graduate or undergrad and see if they have any alumni or networking opportunities you can go to and network.

      Volunteer at nonprofits who might need communications work. Even 10 hours a day will be able to add to your resume and you might meet people who can help you get your next step.

      A lot of times you need to get your stuff in front of the hiring manager. I make HR send me every application so I can look over on the portal but I know people who have HR or AI screen out candidates. I have found so many great people by looking myself (when HR would have nixed them because they don’t know what is really needed for a role).

      Also, look at think tanks! Relief web has jobs for non profits and non governmental organizations and you can apply for communications roles and also development / grant manager roles if you’re good at writing.

  36. I do not work for CrowdStrike*

    No, Virginia, you can’t go back….

    I completed a 60-hour contract over 4 weeks with an organization I left a few months ago. A coworker asked me to train a staff member on my role. I quoted a ‘friends and family’ rate as I was doing this for the coworker and another coworker affected by the issue. Their original hourly rate was my last base pay + 15% which I countered with a higher rate they accepted.

    Mid-training that staff member resigned so I transitioned to training a temp (to fill, not to hire) despite the contract reading ‘training paid staff member’. It’s a new ball game when training a temp with zero experience.

    I fixed everything, brought everything current, and did one project out of scope. But I didn’t have enough contact time to train the temp with any semblance of competency. We had about 25 hours of training together and were just getting into new gift areas. The coworker was surprised this temp wasn’t able to work independently. After 4 work days, that weren’t concurrent thus learning lost over 4 days, there should be no expectation of a temp working independently at this point.

    The org wanted to extend my contract, as is, to include the rate. I said, “No. My friends/family rate expired. The new rate is $20 more because I have to train this temp to be fundraising campaign ready in 4 weeks. I’ll be using all my super sauce powers to make it happen as well as my knowledge, history, and expertise.” It’s slow right now so I’d have to create work/scenarios, traing, quality check, etc. And preparing the campaign which the temp won’t be trained in.

    They declined my new rate citing ‘not enough work, or budget, to justify the rate’ thus ending the contract. They have vacant slots and aren’t going to hire anyone, so yes, they have funding. It does put the new VP in a position, so I’m not too upset. I wish them the best going into a campaign with over 1,000 gifts that require processing. They’re relying on my thorough and well-written transition docs to help them through (they’re good but good enough to train a temp on their own? I’ll never know) I joined the org at the same time years ago and had a coworker/trainer help me through this time.

      1. I do not work for CrowdStrike*

        I re-read it again and had the same (but delayed) reaction as you, ‘Not enough work?’ Right now we’re slow so it’s a good time to train, but in a mere 2 weeks the digital campaign goes live and the direct mail will start returning mid-Aug. they probably think that there isn’t enough training work to justify $50/hour but they have no clue what training someone entails. I know I’m not charging enough as it is.

  37. Someone stole my croissant*

    Ahh- warning, this is a rant/funny story that happened yesterday. Read at your own risk of feeling my negativity! :)
    I work at a pizza restaurant, and we’d closed. The open sign was off, half the lights were off, and we were putting away the food. The door wasn’t locked because we didn’t have a key, but someone was coming by in a few minutes to lock up. Anyway, this little girl comes in and asked if we were closed. We said yeah, sorry. She said okay and walked out. A few minutes later her mom walks in, all hooty footy. My coworker and I just stand there. My jaw is open. She demanded we make her a pizza despite us telling her we were CLOSED, we’d have to wash more dishes and put back food, and we could get in trouble for staying late. There was a mess up chicken pizza we offered her, but she didn’t want it. My coworker had to give that customer her own pizza that my coworker had been given by our manager just to get her to leave. She finally left but my coworker was pretty upset about how the customer had treated us and how she had to give up her pizza. In hindsight, I shoulda called the cops, but I was shocked, and kinda frozen. I’m glad my coworker was there, because she handled it more respectfully than I would’ve.
    People, if the workers say they’re closed, *sigh* they’re closed.

    1. Fiona*

      “My coworker had to give that customer her own pizza” — wait, why??? Closed is closed! (Unless it was, like, 9:45 and your sign said you close at 10:00 or something)

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “No” is not only a complete sentence, but one that can be repeated to escalated and unreasonable requests.

      This would be a situation where I’d love to say “Ah, I have a solution! I can make you a pizza after hours if I get management approval.” Then hand her a super detailed form to fill out completely so that you can submit it to the keyholder when they arrive. And then have her sit down and wait for the keyholder. And it’s too bad the coke machine is turned off because you can’t offer a drink until you have a permission. Oh, and have the form make her sign off on a $20 after-hours charge.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      As someone who has been there I am so sorry this is the worst! What does management say? I’d say Is there a way you can put something in front of the door so people cant open it but that is just going to cause customers like this to bang on the door.

      I would say no, explain you are closed. Then if they refuse to leave tell them you are going to call the police because they are trespassing.

    4. It's Not Delivery*

      I heard on the radio just before coming in today that an employee at the cafe at Sam’s Club was assaulted by a woman because they wouldn’t make her a pizza at close. Like y’all I love pizza too but…. go get you a DiGiornio

    5. WellRed*

      Perfect example of not giving reasons beyond “no.” I hope the lack of a key to lock the door was a one time thing.

    6. ecnaseener*

      I’m glad my coworker was there, because she handled it more respectfully than I would’ve.

      Sounds like she handled it too respectfully, if “respect” means giving up your own property to someone who has zero right to it!

      What is even the concern about being “disrespectful” – one disgruntled non-customer? She was already disgruntled, it’s not like giving up the pizza necessarily means she didn’t still go home and write a nasty review.

      1. Rex Libris*

        Yep, and “I’m sorry, we’re closed and everything is already shut down.” is perfectly respectful.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      Ah yes, the world exists only for MY NEEDS person.

      I hope she got food poisoning.

  38. bamcheeks*

    Can I just check that everyone has seen Mel B / Scary Spice’s graduation gown? If you haven’t, please go and Google it.

    2. Yorkshire Tea Lady*

      It was amazing!

      She’s amazing – she went and did one of the courses the uni offers so that she could feel part of the student body and that she’d “earned” the honour.

      She’s Mel B – what does she need to prove to anyone?

  39. Frog*

    I apologize if this has been asked before but I have a women’s work pants question –

    Looking for: Wrinkle free, black, not jeans, appropriate for casual office / interview, fabric that doesn’t attract cat hair or at least won’t hang on to it for an eternity, not form fitted, fabric durable, machine wash. With pockets.

    I tried looking on amazon, and researching fabric, and got so many answers (wool yes / wool no, linen yes / linen no) that I gave up. I’m working in a casual office where jeans are the norm but would like some options for dressier events and for interviews. Shopping for clothes depresses me with all the returns. I usually wear a size 16/18 in jeans and have a long torso so high waisted usually work the best for me. maybe medium – never low.

    Do these pants exist?!

    1. Elle*

      I’ve had luck with pants at Lands End and specifying what I need on Stitch Fix. I’ve given Stitch Fix specific requests and they’ve come through.

      1. Frog*

        Thank you I’ll check them out! Maybe no more amazon searches would help me feel less overwhelmed with options.

    2. Forest Hag*

      Athleta has great pants for what you are looking for. They have many wide leg and straight leg options that aren’t form-fitting, and they are usually a stretchy technical fabric that is silkier than knit and holds it shape better. Plus wide elastic waistbands, and they typically sit high on the waist (they also have tall sizing). I buy Athleta pants from Poshmark, because they can be kind of expensive, and Poshmark (or Mercari) has tons of people selling them so you can get a much better deal. However to start with, I would probably order some from Athleta’s website and get a feel for the fit, since ordering from the secondhand places won’t let you return anything. Athleta’s return policy is pretty good.

      My favorite of theirs are the Brooklyn pants, Nolita pants, and Endless pants. These are synthetic fabrics so it’s not going to be as “polished” as something like a tailored wool trouser, but I think they work great for most office situations.